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The blog for the afternoon news and current affairs programme presented by Eddie Mair.
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Interesting how they are now saying that certain people in a certain case were lying, but when I said that, the post was deleted.
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Eddie.
They are the Nasty Party aren't they? Wasn't it Therese May's own assessment? The Tories? I watch the Home Secretary's Statement and all the followup questions. Quite an eyeopener.
And a few MPs from other Parties calling for action against the Speaker - like resignation - before any resolution on what exactly is going on. A rush to judgement. lol
A Richard Bacon on FiveLive Drive just now - not I presume his presenter namesake - but a Conservative MP.
I was cooking but laughed out loud and imagine a Hercule Poiret murder mystery with Mr Bacon in the lead role. He would have hung half the cast list because at one time they were suspected of the evil deed.
But a good detective waits until he actually knows the FULL truth - not JUST how it adversely affects one of your Party!
Richard Bacon. Right. Random acts of Rindless.
At this rate, Eddie I will have very few Xmas cards to send to the Westminster area.
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Karen Matthews pure evil? Evil and purity don't normally go together, but the police love a cliche in their media-freindly statements after the fact, don't they. Extremely unpleasant, yes. But evil? I feel for Shannon and her siblings, but I don't think evil is the right word. No-one died.
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SM 3, I though only religious people used the word evil. Sounds medieval to me when I hear it used. "The Devil made me do it!"
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Matthews verdict. There is far too much post-trial comment by the police generally. Often they say how pleased they are with verdict and/or sentence.
The job of the police is to investigate a crime, charge suspects and then leave it to the CPS and the courts. What happens afterwards is none of their business.
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I have been a psychiatric nurse for 40 years and I have seen evil. It's a little disconcerting to see that a police officer hasn't.
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ib 5, I wouldn't mind if the police said more about the Green affair.
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The problem is that there is no down side to the Police arresting needlessly.
We have a local that was arrested for handing in something he found while doing his professional job.
His innocent helpful DNA is now on the database.
The police needs the DNA database because it has lost the will of the people. I certainly would never hand anything in to them after his treatment.
All the arguments of DNA database solves X crimes are the bleatings of the stupid. You could say the same for making us register every week with the police, or having spy cameras in every home. All not acceptable to current society.
All real criminals know how to do real crimes and fake/confuse the DNA at the crime scene. Lock up your bins!
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Troubled children are 'trouble' in the classroom.
Distrurbed children are yes, in fact, disruptive. These scarred children require intensive social and emotional support from specialist eduacational units and not cheaper and demanding integration into the mainstream sector. I thought the report was a shameful and highly manipulative fairytale.
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David McN (7) - I said "post-trial".
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ib 10, I don't let words get in my way.
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Is it the role of the police (or anyone other than perhaps the victim) to pronounce who might be evil? In this case the victim is unable to speak for herself and perhaps the police felt they needed to say something on her behalf. However, perhaps this might have been better coming from a member of statutory care services or perhaps a close caring relative (if there is one).
The other problem in pronouncing someone to be evil throughout their whole make-up is to insinuate that there are those who are irredeemable/nonredeemable. If this is the case then the whole idea of prison, serving a sentence and the reforming of character is futile. I am afraid I cannot accept that there are those who are unredeemable even though they may not be redeemed during their life-time.
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Who is that psychologist that Eddie talked to? Yeah, maybe we can give Shannon back to her mum some day. Was she from Haringey council?
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Subject: DNA DataBase
Whoopee! Court of Human Rights, well done.
So criminal records for non-criminals are gone, it seems.
One in the eye for authoritarian HomeSecretaries (both major parties), and unaccountable Porky the Pig.
A = A
C = Control on
P = Police
O = Overbearing practice
More of the same, please
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love the way Michael Buchanan says "therrty". But I don't understand what fuel surcharges are if they don't represent the surcharge on fuel. Sounds like BA and Virgin are up to their old tricks again
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So, we can borrow at 2%, yet still recieve 6% for savings? Mmmmm, Is this the easy way to make money?
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"The love of money is the root of all evil". Of course, you don't have to believe that. Some people think that "greed is good".
In the case of Karen Matthews, what she did was evil and stupid; but that doesn't mean she will not, at some future date repent and show genuine remorse. Maybe one day, she will even ask Shannon to forgive her. We don't know that.
This is a woman who was living in a world where clearly few moral values if any, existed.
Hitler was evil.
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Why must Panorama rush out a programme on the Shannon Matthews case ? Anyone interested has probably followed the press reporting of the trial. To protect Shannon and her siblings what can be said publicly must still be limited and will probably not add much to what is already known.
I had considerable respect for your interviewee, who having been one of those searching for the missing child for hours of her own time, and being one of those deceived by Karen Matthews, still would not make judgements about 'evil' because she and others still have to live as neighbours. A kind of restraint that is all too rare these days. And thank you, Eddie, for asking her what she 'thought', not what she *felt*.
PS - like your other emailer, I too would rather be watching 'Little Dorrit' this evening! Before it I will be watching Jo Brand on Vera Brittain which I missed last time around because some bright spark decided to re-jig the schedule at zero notice in November - why not have a plan and stick to it?
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The Sally-Ann Bowman case (given as an example of a crime solved by retained DNA) was not solved by matching the suspect's retained DNA against DNA from her murder scene, but by matching his DNA taken when he was arrested later, for involvement in a pub brawl.
This practice, of matching newly-taken DNA against DNA from historical crime scenes is not affected at all by today's ruling. If those in favour of retaining the DNA of innocent people can't come up with a better example, it doesn't say much for their case.
I think an interviewee on Today this morning used the same example, and it was refuted by the next interviewer. Does noone on PM listen to Today?
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I'm appalled at the Police statement issued after the conviction, but before sentencing, of the abductors of the child.
It would have been more appropriate to refer only to the facts and to save any opinions until the Court has considered all the circumstances and handed down its sentences.
I accept that it would seem appropriate for long prison sentences to be anticipated, but suggest that they may be biased towards protecting the public rather more than punishing these inadequate people.
The Police are rightly quick to complain about lenient, short or non-custodial sentences, but they do not further their own cause by tabloidesque grandstanding and baying for punishment; detention to protect the public is just as valid and the result is just as effective.
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Well done Eddie on the informative interview with the Cambridge Psychologist. A rare example of a real expert, not someone using Radio 4 as a crude pitch for research rating points and further funding.
I think this clip should be compulsory training material on meeja training courses, especially those attended by politicians.
Isn't it amusing how so many politicians refer to a "package" when trying to mask their political nakedness with a cloak of meeja savvy?
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crikey_music @ 9, one problem I have with all this is that I can't help noting that while the human rights of the disruptive are important, they are infringing on the human rights of all the other children in their classes if they hit, spit and kick other children to convey their feelings. Are the human rights of ordinary children not to be of importance too?
riffler @ 19, I was going to say that, but you got in first and better than I would. I do entirely agree that this case they bang on about is irrelevant...
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Little baby P was murdered and tortured
by truly evil people. Whilst Karen Matthews actions were incomprehensible
as a Mother, the description of "Evil"
does not seem to fit her dreadful actions.
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So when did the Police get the power to pronounce judgements.
I would be a lot happier if they were restricted to only making statements of facts and requests for help.
We should never hear the police having any views. All Police chiefs should be silenced and only speak through MPs.
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Debasement of the language. If Karen Matthews is 'pure evil' what have we left to describe, say, Dr Josef Mengele?
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"Hogwash" here we go again, the dear old beeb along with rest of the media busybodying over another round of playground politics whilst the real issues of the day are clouded by a smoke screen of mediocrity and swept under the axminster of westminster. The good and honest, hardworking, Great British public, have been silently but systematically fleeced of their fundimental beliefs, jobs, lifestyles, properties and cash by the very institutions (parliment included) set up over generations to instill trust and deal with the perpetrators of fraud, corruption and the rest of it.
Seems to me that a greater number of these potently privileged members of our sick and ailing society should receive an indepth grilling by our law enforcers with maybe a thumb screw or two if necassary to jog the memory. Come on Auntie lets hear about the real issues.
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A poor working class woman....makes up a cock and bull story too try and make money out of some of the Riches people on the Planet..who own and control most of the mass media....a certain Rightwing journalist earns at least 20, 000 pounds a week to write lies and propaganda week in week out..which one is Evil?...In fact many people in the mass media earn lots of dosh for doing next to nothing....And if you thing that Dr C Rice is in the Far East to calm the waters and tell the Truth, think again...Because killing people is very profitable for the 'upper class'..and for the evidence may I suggest you all read the brilliant Mark Thomas's book ..As Used on Nelson Mandela....it may open yours eyes; and very relevant for this part of the World, in some places!!!
Brian
Brian V Peck
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Instead of spending ALL the time allocated to the Shannon Matthews case discussing the mother, why didn't you ask the 'expert' about the effect of the episode on the daughter? And when the 'expert' said she didn't want Karen Matthews gaol term to be punitive (which means "Inflicting or aiming to inflict punishment; punishing") you should have asked her if she meant the the woman should not be punished. Because, if she was drifting toward that view, you should have then asked her if she thought that the woman did not really exist; which of course is the de facto position of such experts: the perpertrator of such crimes are _merely_ a victim of circumstances, like billiard balls. As for the matter of you asking about the appropriatedness of the police characterisation of Karen Matthews as evil, since that view is diametrically opposed to the view of your psychiatrist expert, far more should have been made of this opposition of views of human nature. You should also have been asking what the hell the police are doing making ANY comment at all on anything other than detective work; it is no more their job to look into the character or moral culpability of anyone they arrest than it is the psychiatrist's on the competence of the police's detective work. When you interviewed the local 'friend' of Karen Matthews, you should have been briefed earlier on how they became friends. Don't waste my time. The woman belied the impression given by her uneducated speech and wisely refused to ask Eddie Mair's ridiculous question about what kind of gaol sentence she thought Karen Matthews should be given: it's irrelevant. Don't waste my time. If you have experts at hand, why don't you ask how come none of them was able to deduce from the behaviour of Karen Matthews on the various news interviews that she was a liar. Altogether this 'segment' or whatever you call it was typical of the BBC's 'flagship' programmes, whether it is the TODAY programme in the morning or PM in the evening: lacking in the extreme.
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27: Read Richard Littlejohn tomorrow in the Daily Mail. Yeah he's so evil he even
dares to criticise Nulabour. What a cad.
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I was very impressed by Julie, Karen Matthew's neighbour and friend. Her comments were careful and considered- unlike the careless, unfortunate and inflammatory comments of the police spokesman. I thought I could hear a tiny note of frustration in Eddie's voice 'cos she couldn't be drawn into saying anything sensational ... but good on her, I say, for resisting the urge for 5 minutes of fame, to avoid jeopardising community relationships.
I live in the same local authority area, and have worked in the neighbourhood a bit. It's an area that has been through a lot - one of the London bombers also lived just up the road. The majority of local people have made huge efforts not to let local events tear the community apart - Julie spoke in this spirit when she refused to voice hatred, or use inflammatory words like 'evil'. It's a great shame that copper didn't do the same.
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Like others here I'm a little dismayed by the Police / Crown Prosecution Service being on hand immediately after the Matthews verdict for a rent-a-quote.
Increasingly it seems the CPS in particular never seems to fail to have one of its lawyers on hand for a sanctimonious/gloating soundbite.
This crass media-literacy is a new and worrying development.. I don't remember prosecutors giving interviews, say, three, four years ago... Is my memory flawed? Maybe there's a deliberate policy being spun to make successful prosecuting more "sexy" for the newshounds?
Whatever. I'm glad others find it a little perturbing too. They might as well have been high fiving each other on the courtroom steps.
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18
A mill owning family have a daughter who lectures, writes etc, who has a daughter who lectures, writes etc, was an MP who as Minister refused the Polytechnics, University status, Vera and Shirley (for it is they) both Oxford undergrads.
Are Shirley's children working emptying wheelie bins for the council?
If not, when is it that lineage's turn to return to proper work - to do their (intergenerational) share?
Their parasitism on the rest of us, seems evil to me.
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GS @ 27 You start your paragrah with: 'A poor working class woman....makes up a cock and bull story too try and make money out of some of the Riches people on the Planet'
Wouldn't it be more appropriate to start with: 'A poor working class woman conspires in the kidnap, false imprisonment and serial drugging of her young daughter' befor eyou go on and talk about the right wing, the media and so on. Your latter point may have weight but it loses all credibility when you grossly misrepresent an important event in this way.
And, in response to some of the other posts here, I agree this is not a crucial constitutional question but I tyhink the trauma of a three week imprisonment on a girl of Shannon's age, and the message it sends to her 'you're worth more to me miserable and apart from me than safe and by my side' are catastrophic in this young girls life.
Having said that, everyone has given examples of what they personally believe is evil and what isn't but no one has ventured a definition or even parameters by which to define it.
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PML @ 32 Your suggestion is that there is more dignity and value in being a dustbinman than an author, lecturer or MP. Surely there is equal dignity and value in doing any of these jobs well in the service of society. Being a mill owner isn't 'bad'. What is proper work exactly?
If I don't get dirty fingernails by the end of the day am I a bad person without a proper job doing proper work? Is society parasitic by its nature or is it both inevitable and important that there are people doing jobs at all levels in society from 'thinking' to cleaning and that these can all be equally respected?
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V6, So, you've seen kids spinning their heads in a circle and throwing up pea soup?
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So, once again, Little Dorrit gets pushed aside for another program, Panorama. With all the previous complaints about this, you'd think the BBC would learn. What was wrong with 11pm?
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pmL @ 32, there is a limit to the number of people needed to collect wheelie-bins. Why are you trying to dump those who do it now into the ranks of the unemployed?
I'll let you into a secret: the bin-men of Brighton really hated it when students got jobs on the bin-round: they felt (and said) that these were people taking jobs away from honest working blokes.
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Re. Message #36, I totally agree with you David.
I was disgusted that the BBC considered the Shannon Matthews story to be of such huge importance (in comparison to other news items) that it decided to disrupt the scheduled programming and cancel 'Little Dorrit' in order to broadcast a Panorama special that was no more than an exercise in dumbed-down, populist gutter journalism.
There was nothing in this edition of Panorama that had not already been shown on news programmes or could not have been shown during the main BBC1 news bulletin later that same evening. It was a cynical and opportunistic attempt by the BBC to jump on a sensationalist band-wagon.
Whoever was responsible at the BBC for disrupting the scheduled programmes in order to show the Panorama special is an idiot who should be sacked.
Yet another indication of the sad decline of standards at the BBC.
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pmL 32, I've met that Shirley person several times. You sound a bit jealous of her.
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Following 23-25 and 30-31 yesterday on 'pure evil'...
I really wish that police officers would keep opinions like this to themselves. The job of the police force is to ensure safe, strong communities - and spreading hatred is never, ever going to help. Brennan's comment reveals a psychology that seems to believe - like a simple fairy-tale or young child - or tabloid reader - that "A person is either good or bad, nothing in between" (-Bettleheim). Grown-ups with responsible positions really should know better.
Thankfully the community of Dewsbury Moor DOES seem to know better - it is fighting against a tide of negative media coverage - and is so far resisting the temptation to join a tabloid witch-hunt. Good for them!
More on this at http://gogowiththeflow.blogspot.com/2008/12/theres-love-and-hope-not-pure-evil-in.html
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About this 'being kidnapped for three weeks trauma' thing -- why? If from her point of view she was not kidnapped but having a slightly strange holiday, and if she had no particular fears of rape, murder or whatever other horror (as why need she, if she knew the chap and didn't dislike him) she might be completely *un*traumatised until she was told that she ought to be and had it explained to her by (possibly well-meaning) adults why she *ought* to have been traumatised.
Adults project their fears all the time, as in every media scare (MMR, listeria, paedophilia, you name it) shows very clearly; children on the whole are not afraid to the point at which their insouciance is terrifying for the adults around them, because they will fail to fear what an adult is sure ought to be frightful. The adult is terrified; the child often has no idea what the fuss is about.
If not told repeatedly how pitiable and traumatised she ought to be, Shannon may well take the whole thing in her stride -- possibly apart from being deprived of her imprisoned mother.
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41
Well said, Ghoti!
What IS the point of putting EITHER of them in prison?
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pmL @ 42, well, if you mean the two adults, perhaps they ought to be punished for (effectively) stealing several hundred thousand pounds of public money that was wasted on looking for young Shannon, not to mention all the anxiety and sorrow they caused to the large number of people who went out looking for her day after day.
Also the cost of the court case, which can't have been small and was pretty-much entirely their faults.
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