US Elections...and the latest part of Shaun's US election Odyssey.
The BBC News coverage continues here.
Tonight, from midnight, your friend and mine Shaun Ley will be co-hosting Radio 4's US election night coverage. I hope you'll join him...he's been filing copy for us for days. And Martha Kearney has her own diary here. Here is his latest...you can read his older stuff by going to Categories on the right and looking for Shaun's name.
"Judging by the good people of Leesburg, Virginia, the "I've voted for President" stickers are the must have fashion accessory at the moment.
At 7am this morning, when I got to this smaller commuter town, about 40 miles north west of Washington, the polling place had been open for about an hour.
The queue was obscured by the shape of the building, but according to those who'd been in side, things were moving fast, 'though they still said the numbers were higher than usual.
As Tova Wang, of Common Cause, a group which monitors elections, told me big queues don't necessarily mean more voters; it may just reflect inadequate preparation by election supervisors.
Still, everyone is expecting a larger than normal turnout this year, perhaps the largest since 1960, when Kennedy narrowly beat Nixon.
It's just this minute started to rain - the first time in days - and that could have some effect. But the major thing worrying those hoping for an early result is that people may still queuing when polling stations are due to shut (the earliest at 7pm, in eastern states).
Generally, if someone is already standing in line, they should still be able to vote.
But 'generally" masks an awful lot of differences. Like so much else here, elections are local affairs; so even when electing the President, the 50 states do it their own way, and even individual counties - where officials organise the elections - determine a lot of the rules for themselves.
And elections are administered by the elected, so the equivalent of the returning officer in a British election, will be a local Democrat or Republican.
It makes for a potentially combustible mix, especially when - as in 2000 - a result is tight.
Rules on how you can vote also vary. Some states insist you present photo I'd. Since that means either passport or driving licence, Democrats claim it's a way of suppressing the votes of the poor, who may not have these forms of ID Republicans, in their turn, accuse the other side of trying to boost their support by registering the ineligible.
The big change this year has been the widespread adoption of early voting. In Colorado, for example, 46 per cent of those registered to vote had done so before today. That should take some of the pressure off.
Mind you in Pennsylvania, there's been no early voting at all. Since it's a key state for both Obama and McCain, expect a big effort by both parties to get them to the polls, and queues to match.
All of which must make the people of Oregon feel pretty smug today. No queues or arguments over ID for them. They all vote by post."
Listen to PM
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~17~RS~)
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At least by this time it should all be over...
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One day to go and then the BBC can report something else ! Woohoo !
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All over bar the shouting, Ffred ;o)
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whoops! I meant by this time tomorrow
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So what equivalents of Florida 8 years ago will we have today?
Hanging chads? Diebold machines acting suspiciously? Polls closing early?
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I've just watched the video clip on the BBC news page where Obama sticks his ginormous voting sheet in a mahcine and says, "I voted..."
But it cuts off before he says who he voted for. I think we should be told.
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Eddie, have you counted how many stars are on the US flag you're showing on the Blog. I think it's the one they used in 1912. It might be appropriate if Woodrow Wilson, Theodore Roosevelt and Willaim Howard Taft were all still running for the big job. But I hardly think it works for the USA08 campaign.
The BBC... it's what we do. :0)
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Mrs Eff - It's only showing the stars for the States that the Repubicans can't rig.
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Every election, the Left complains about voter fraud, but it's always the Democrats who block Republican attempts to pass basic security laws requiring photo id's.
Maybe, cheating is on Lefties' mind, because that's all they know.
Hillary Clinton supporters and campaign lawyers have argued that the only reason Obama won the Democratic nomination is because of widespread cheating and voter intimidation by Obama supporters in the party run caucuses.
There are still many angry Hillary supporters who will vote for MaCain in protest.
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Just to inform you that I E Mailed some photos of people voting early in Miami Florida.
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For Stainless Steel Cat: At the present time, voting is going smooth in Miami Florida. Regardless, there have been reports of foul play from both parties. Obama and Mc Cain have hired lawyers just in case the elections go wrong.
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Hi Roberto - thanks for getting in touch. Maybe you'll let us know how you feel about the result?
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OK, I'm officially sad. I have BBC News' Live Text Feed open in another tab, and check it regularly - even though it's mainly reporters commenting that the early queues have now died away, and Obama's camp are starting to get a little worried...
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Thanks Roberto, always good to hear from you.
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If it's live text you like (13)...stand by your DABs, freeview and virgins. (Ahem)
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Thank goodness it's nearly over!!
Is the BBC now the Barack Broadcasting Company?
Dear old auntie has gone really over the top with this one, there must be a lot of empty offices in the UK, everybody and his assistant is in the US.
PLEASE, can we have a bit less in 2012.
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I can only imagine somebody got their cut 'n paste wrong when they put the flag on the Blog .....
"Stand by your virgin"? Could be a tough one, that.
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I think that all the people at the BBC are of the sort who open their Christmas presents on about December 10th, judging by the way that they can never wait for something actually to have happened before they start going on about it.
In about March, on previous form, we shall have a better idea which side has really won the US election, and how much cheating stole which bits from whom how many times round the whats of where... Until then, we may know who has been decided to be the next President, but we certainly won't know that for sure this evening. So why not wait to start analysing it until tomorrow?
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I am still surprised by the length of the queues. People shouldn't have to wait 8 hours to vote. I hope they reform the system for next time.
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John McCain thinks he can cause an upset. He already has done by choosing Palin as his running mate.
If the race did become really tight tonight and McCain had a heart attack with all the excitement Sarah Palin would be President tomorrow and you don't get a more upsetting prospect than that.
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Alice
Just go to bed and get the sleep you need. The result will be the same whatever time you wake up!
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Re 'Upshares-Downshares', if Eddie says Nils can have the theme-tune to that early 70's soap opera, we want our PM jingle back! We've now been in mourning for Princess Diana these past 11 years and I'm getting this vision of Eddie dressed in Queen Victoria's widow's weeds as he presents the programme. Stop it! And bring back the jingles.
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Prof_use 19, We don't have queues in the US. We have lines.
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For the benefit of those getting pedantic over the flag:
This is the current flag - 50 stars arranged 6/5/6/5/6/5/6/5/6
The flag as shown in the top has never been an official flag - there have never been 41 states or a flag arranged with 5/4/5/4/5/4/5/4/5 stars. There were 38 from July 4, 1877 to July 3, 1890, arranged 8/7/8/7/8; and 43 from July 4, 1890 to July 3, 1891, arranged 8/7/7/7/7/7.
However...
6/5/6/5/6/5/6/5/6 - official flag
5/4/5/4/5/4/5/4/5 - displayed above
Spot what happened - someone took the official flag, and cropped from the left hand side as well as the right...
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I guess by looking at the US flag I got it wrong when I said that I hoped the BBC would get things right about the US election. How about a flag of Ohio as it is so important in the election.
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David: you asked for it, you got it! :)
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mittfh (24): That was my point (see 17). Presumably, they couldn't make the original image fit ....
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I sincerely hope that when I wake at 04.30 tomorrow with the world service on the radio that the talk is about president elect Barak Obama, I think that if John McCain wins I shall just give up and go and find a cave somewhere remote because a world with another version of George Bush is not a world I would wish to participate in. I know that the American people will do us proud and elect Obama, I can feel it in my water, lets hope that I am right.
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DMcN @ 23, it is generally from places in the third world where they are having the first or second real election ever that we get shown large numbers of the population standing in line in the sun for four or five hours to exercise the franchise. It seems very strange to see pictures of such a thing happening in America. Still, I expect that in November weather fewer members of those lines will end up with sunstroke...
Actually, I find it profoudly shocking. One person was saying on the news that 'the machines broke down early in the day' and that was the reason for the huge delays. I never knew a pencil and paper 'break down'. Maybe it is time to stop playing with technology and go back to a working system, one that manages in this country to get returns in within a few hours rather than days or weeks. I just hope that the flirting with these machines that has been starting to happen in this country is stopped before it starts to be accepted as a norm.
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For Gilianian and the rest of the BBC PM Family:
I would like to thank you for your comments. Personally, I do not like either candidate and voted Libertarian. The two parties that say a vote for an alternative party is a wasted vote has shown themselves to be irresponsible. I almost never voted since the election officials who are Republicans and Democrats tried to say that my voter card was null. I showed my driver's licence and voted. Overall, Florida has been smooth in spite of the problems with electricity and some of the voting booths breaking down.
In Ohio, an Obama suppporter was assaulted by an unknown assailant. In Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; a group of people whoc claimed to be members of the Balck Panthers [a now defunct group] were intimidating voters.
In Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the District Attorney had to restore Republican observers after being expelled by Democratic Observers.
After reading about the following incidents, I decided that a vote for the Republicans and Democrats would be a vote for more polarization, hatred, and violence. I am afraid that the people of America that exist today have lost touch with democracy and freedom.
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CG@29
Our problems are much more fundamental than whether we use paper or machines to vote. When less than 1 million people decide not only which party will win but also the size of the majority, the last thing you need to worry about is voting technology.
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Thank you so much, Roberto - from what I've heard and seen over here, I wouldn't have known there was such a party as the Libertarians.
I can understand your fears about polarization - only time will tell if the new President is able to unify the nation's differing factions, and in the best sense of the words, I hope you're wrong.
Very best wishes to you.
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RJM, whatever system is used to decide how the votes are counted, it is surely a good idea to be sure that [a] every person is able to vote and [b] each person's vote is counted as being a vote for the person that they voted for rather than for someone else.
Giving away postal votes to anyone who asks for one (and many people who haven't) without any check on who actually casts those votes is asking for trouble just as surely as machines that don't confirm what the vote just cast *was* are open to misuse, or having a man with a gun standing over the people counting the ballot papers and making it clear to them that if the answer they arrive at is 'wrong' they will become a sad accident. We may not have a secret ballot, but we do at least (in most places) have a ballot, and a paper-trail, and the possibility of a re-count...
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20. At 5:34pm on 04 Nov 2008, Prof_use wrote:
John McCain thinks he can cause an upset. He already has done by choosing Palin as his running mate.
If the race did become really tight tonight and McCain had a heart attack with all the excitement Sarah Palin would be President tomorrow and you don't get a more upsetting prospect than that.
Hey! That's my nightmare!
The US could be at war with Canada next week.
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Without wishing to sound like the voice of doom... my brother in law has a theory that Obama may be the shortest serving President in America as some fame-seeking lunatic will try to bump him off as soon as he gets into office.
I hope not - but it's an interesting theory.
I'll be glad when this election nonsense is over too - it's getting to me.
Night, Night John Boy
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petepassword @ 34, heh! I was in a bar once when the news broke that someone had shot at the President of the US -- who was somewhat unpopular with that particular group of people. There was a certain amount of remarks about 'it couldn't have happened to a nicer bloke' until someone suddenly said 'Yes, but if he dies have you thought who will become President?'
Thirty people on their knees all praying for Ronald Reagan's rapid recovery...
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CG@33
It does not matter if it is not secret, it doesn't matter if 34 million votes are not counted. Less than 1 million will actually decide which party governs and what their majority is. The rest may as well not vote. Their vote has no effect on the selection of the government and only a minor effect on the selection of one MP.
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Dear Gillianium and BBC PM:
Thank you for your last letter. There is a Libertarian Party and a Green Party. Unfortunatly, there is no publicity since the Republicans and Democrats do everything in their power to block alternative parties from power via ballot access laws that are discriminatory. All of this in a country that pretends to "export" democracy to Iraq and other countries. I hope I am wrong in my predictions.
I am only waiting to see what happens. One thing for sure, the BBC [including BBC PM] has kept my sanity as the alternative news source.
Best Wishes from Florida.
Roberto
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Roberto: We're all hoping to keep our sanity - and we hope the outcome of today's voting will help the world to regain some sanity!
Best wishes, friend, from another Blog friend.
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Oh typically when it becomes adddictive - that time comes when I realise I have to get some slleep.
Ironically as I type - it seems in the balance - though I suspect not?
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LOL - well as I leave BBC 1 now David seems to be struggling to fill in time!
Looks like it's going to be a long night -
As David has just said - as only he could'
One of the sadnesses of modern communication?
trying to link to something that didn't work.
Least that's what I thoght he said?
Damn - Have to leave when it's all becoming fun!
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RJM @ 37, surely if the result is to be decided by more than the million or so who have the casting votes at the moment, it is *more* important, not less, that *everyone's* votes should be both confidential and correct?
In any case, what possible justification can be made for claiming that it is a secret ballot when it is no such thing, or for it being apparently quite easy to subvert the present system by stealing voting papers and using them fraudulently? Merely because we might need to rejig the system, that doesn't mean we should ignore lying and theft, does it?
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CG@42
Glad to see you've got your priorities right. You won't be surprised to learn that you are in the majority in thinking as you do.
I shall continue to plough my lonely furrow - for all the good it will do me and you.
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RJM @ 43, maybe it would be futile to ask why you object to the idea of not having corrupt elections under *any* system, but I would still like to know why not accepting lies and theft as a reasonable norm should be something that you reject as not being relevant to your 'lonely furrow'. Not planning to have elections at all, or what?
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CG@44
Because it is not the main source of the corruption. It is like asking a soldier who is about to bleed to death if he minds having his gangreneous arm amputated.
If you are concerned about democracy it is wise to apply the tourniquet to the main artery before the patient dies rather than apply bandages to his minor cuts.
Of course, the things that concern you need to be addressed, but I cannot understand why you are content not to live in a democracy. Whilst governments only have to worry about satisfying less than a million of its citizens in a few key areas they are not ever going to govern for the benefit of the majority.
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RJM @ 45, oh, right, I get it: you are using the dichotomy, either/or model for behaviour, in which every question has its one right answer and no possibility that one might want *both* improvements! Fair enough. I think it may lead to a paucity of ambition, but if one can only hold one priority at a time and to the exclusion of everything else [1], then fine.
In real life, if I am asked 'Do you want tea or coffee for breakfast?' I don't assume that this means I can have only one or other of those two, but no cereal, toast, butter, marmalade... And if I am asked 'Do you want marmalade or apricot jam on your toast?' I don't assume that I must not *also* want butter on it.
After all, even if the main part of the voting system is altered, the possibilities for fraud will still exist and will still need to be addressed, so one might as well start on fixing them *at the same time* as anything else one wishes to sort out. Personally I would like to see some attention given to the entire electoral system, *and* to the treatment given to cancer victims by the NHS, *and* to the prevention of the idiot ID-card rubbish, *and* .... [insert list here]
[1] there was a point a little while ago during which oour Prime Minister said he was giving 'absolutely all his time' to five different things within a seven-day period, which I found either very impressive or very depressing depending on whether I took his word for it or assumed he was simply saying what he thought people wanted to hear...
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CG@46
"you are using the dichotomy, either/or model for behaviour" - like doctors using triage presumably.
You might well thinks so, I couldn't possibly comment.
One of the interesting things about prioritisation is that it allows you to determine which of the many possible things you could do is the most urgent, should have the most resources applied, will do the greatest good, etc.
Wanting to live in a democracy doesn't get a high priority on your list. One might be tempted to think that the other things you prefer to do (like drinking tea and coffee together) could be seen as displacement activity for avoiding the really tricky issue.
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