The Glass Box for Monday.
Be your own radio critic! Tell us here, frankly, what you thought of tonight's programme. In the PM office we meet every night at 1800 in the Glass Box you see above.
We talk about the content of the programme and try to give an honest assessment of what worked and what didn't...the things we missed and the places where our ambitions were not met. THIS virtual glass box you are looking at is where you are invited - indeed encouraged - to be your own critic. Comment on our hour by clicking on the comment link. Members of the production team will read the comments, and the editor should comment too. Click on The Glass Box link on the right of the page to read previous entries.
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Hello love
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Girlies doing science:
"Big", "Huge", "Fantastic", "BadAss"... yeah?
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Now that the Olympics are history, we are never going to hear the end of it about that offensive tennis player, Andy Murray, if he wins something.
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Good afternoon all. I keep hearing, seeing and reading about the particle Excelerator thing that cast 16 zillion quid and will give a glimpse for a fraction of a second what happened at the very start of the universe.
Does anyone know why we need that information?
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@4
We don't need it. Which is why physics departments are getting closed in many Universities.
But apparently we do need 'Women's Studies"; of which courses are burgeoning.
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Tbird 4, To find out why you exist. I'm con-Cern-ed about that.
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JimmyGiro, you're right about the lack of funding for Physics in British Universities, but I heard a piece on Woman's Hour not so long ago saying that Women's Studies courses were also shutting down...
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A great deal of hype about Big Bang Day. I take it there will be no results available immediately and that the processes of analysis will probably take years. Will PM keep us up-to-date as the results are analysed?
Going critical is mainly a media event, I suppose focussed on whether the technology works or not. There will be many advances in science and technology in the aftermath of this experiment, and not ones that are necessarily foreseeable.
Taking a semi-educated guess, there might be some advances on the development of manageable fusion power generation of electricity.
I hope the knowledge gained will justify the phenomenal cost.
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On a more serious note I was speaking the other day to someone whose little girl had come in from school very worried: "Mummy, we're all going to die on Wednesday". Her mother hadn't heard much about the project and was going off to learn more. I hope she wasn't listening tonight for reassuring information.
Your item was introduced by a hiphop rap and went on to interview someone who sounded about 15, but turned out to be at CERN and possibly a scientist, who was incoherent and breathless with excitement about all these fun theories, she even had a favourite.
Unfortunately, it came across sounding like a school project, with no adult in sight. I was reminded of a modern-day Molesworth - "I think this car runs on fairy dust, let's throw a few sticks of gelignite at it and see what happens and take a big photograph with our ginormous camera. Oooh, it'll be soooo exciting!"
It will hardly have been comforting that little girl, nor her mother and was not comforting to me at 61. I do hope there's a grown-up supervising this somewhere.
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My daughter's fascinated by the LHC, and I'll be encouraging her to learn as much about it as possible. Exactly when should we give up the pursuit of knowledge?
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@10
Tell her John Barrowman is starring in it; and he is in pursuit of Dr Who... or should that be close behind?
PS. Hadron does not refer to a sexual conquest of someone by the name of Ron.
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I hope that Fannie and Freddie are very grateful too Karl (sic)...but don't tell the workers that the State has had to bail out the Capitalist system again...
Brian
BVP
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Thank you for your thoughts gang......
As I suspected, no one does know, that's fine, just as long as it isn't just me.
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Oh dear, I knew when I heard this that it was going to bring out the worst in some people.
What possessed them to select a (gasp) woman to interview? And one who is a respected scientist at that? Asking for trouble, that was.
JG @ 2, you're being predictable again.
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@14
Gasp... who would have predicted the Beeb would choose some gasping girlies?
It would be interesting if these respected scientists are chosen to announce the discovery of the Higgs Boson; or whether they choose some un-respected male scientist to steal the thunder from these latter day Marie Curies?
By the way, are they respected scientists because of what they have done, or because of their gender?
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Hello, Monday's duty editor here. Thanks for your interest in the show.
It was certainly a bumpy ride for us with the terror trial verdicts coming after 4pm. The jury had spent many days making their decisions and we had less than an hour to work out how to describe them on air. When verdicts are complicated, with a mixture of guilty, not guilty, no verdicts etc we have to be careful what we broadcast so as not to libel the defendents or prejudice a potential retrial. Fortunately we were able to call upon our correspondents Jane Peel, Rory Maclean and Gordon Corera to help as the situation became clearer while we were on air.
Its been interesting to read the comments on our CERN coverage. From what I know of Radio 4's plans, not only will you be able to hear from female physicists, there'll also be contributions from actors, comedians and a few men in white coats to look forward to as well.
I'm sorry we weren't able to include Hugh Sykes' report from Iran, we had technical problems getting his material fed over. Hopefully we'll be able to broadcast it soon.
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@16
Maybe you should have interviewed some TV-licence paying men?... if you can find any left.
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Ah, of course. All role models should be men. Stupid me.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
You hit the nail on the head there, Chris (14).
Can the blog moderators please explain why they remove perfectly harmless and amusing posts simply because they contain Scottish dialect, yet these offensive mysognistic comments are allowed to remain.............just curious?
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@20
Yeah, someone explain!
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Hmm ... someone's forgotten to take their tablet again ...
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@22
Are you trying to say something?
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Jimmy (various), What has happened to you to make you so bitter?
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@24
If you regard criticism of feminism and feminists, as being "bitter", then you need to ask the question as to why you are a bigot?
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I didn't get a chance to comment yesterday, so here's my thoughts...
It was great to have the piece on CERN. To have science so prominent on TV at the moment may help to raise the profile of it with younger viewers/listeners. We need to energise the youth of today if we are to keep our standing in the scientific community.
JG (2): The young scientists of both sexes that I know and have worked alongside all would probably all use those sorts of words, irrespective of their gender. It's the way young people speak.
JG (15/17): What makes you think a female scientist would only be respected because of her gender? Typically the scientists I know don't care what a colleague's gender is. They only care if they are at the forefront of their field. Also, why say "TV Licnce paying men"? Do only men pay the licence fee?
TBird(4): I think similar things were said about a number of scientific endeavours in the past. Still, without some of the pure science that took place during the Space programme, we wouldn't have GPS tracking (so useful to the emergency services), countless engineering breakthroughs, etc. Without the Curies demonstrating the strange effects of certain materials, we wouldn't have X-Ray diagnosis in medicine. Science doesn't always immediately show an obvious profitable outcome, but without science, we would not be where we are today.
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I don't regard questionning feminism as bitter (25), and that isn't what you do. You turn every thread into a tirade against women, not only feminists (who are both men and women).
Why call me a bigot simply because I asked you a question? I am genuinely interested in hearing your reasoning -- why do you attack women at every opportunity? What has made you this way? Why are you so angry all of the time? You must realise that you take a minority postion here and only suceed in angering/disengaging most posters of both sexes and so I want to understand where your perspective comes from.
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@26
"Without the Curies demonstrating the strange effects of certain materials, we wouldn't have X-Ray diagnosis in medicine."
Try Roentgen.
As for women in physics and chemistry; I noticed during my research in liquid crystal physics, that every other woman was a feminist; shoe-horned in to make up the political numbers. Their scientific contributions reflected this.
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@27
Your misrepresentations of my words, and the tendency for my posts to be moderated, is the proof of bigotry.
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JG 29, You tell her/him/it. She/he/it has been questioning my posts too.
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JimmyGiro (29) -100% wrong.
Hopefully your posts at (19) and (25) were removed because I complained about them.
"This contributor continually breaks house rules with impunity. His comments provoke, attack & offend others. His postings are almost exclusively sexist and misogynistic. I have no idea why this ongoing abuse is permitted whilst other innocuous postings are immediately deleted. I personally know of 3 former regular contributors to this site who will not join in discussions now because of the abuse from this individual. Does no-one keep an overview of debate and discussion on the blog?"
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Well said that Horse.
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JG, it's possible that your posts, like everyone else's, get moderated for Obscure Reasons or None At All just because the moderators feel like it. Certainly when some posts that have been moderated get put back up, I look at them and wonder what on *earth* anyone thought was wrong with them.
That you attribute this moderation of your posts to 'feminism' indicates to me that you have a very biased view of the world. Unlike Aperitif, I don't really care why you have it: I just wish you'd give it a rest here.
My earlier comment about your predictability stands. If a woman is mentioned at all in PM, there is a strong chance that you are going to write something here that is offensive about feminism, whatever you think that is -- you haven't explained, you just sound off about it whenever you are argued with on any subject and attribute the disagreement with you to 'feminism', and accuse anyone who asks you why of being a 'feminist' even if you have no idea whatever as to their beliefs or sex.
Please either get your act together and say what you mean by the term 'feminism', or belt up about it, do. At present you might just as well be using 'pinko' or 'martian' as a blanket boo-word. That would actually be more acceptable, since it might make your posts less offensive to or about the (slight) majority of the population who were born female without the option and whom you seem to feel free to attack about it.
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TIH 31, I complained about your complaining post. And Sid's supporting 32.
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DMcN - That is what free speech is all about.
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TIH 35, But I withdrew the complaints.
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@31
Quote me for truth, since you are clearly talking about what you perceived rather than reality.
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@33
see 31
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JG (29) If your posts are being removed because of moderation, it is because they have broken the House Rules (available HERE). Remember that it is not fellow posters who make the final decision, it is the job of a separate group of moderators.
Regarding your (28), I believe you misunderstand my referencing the Curies. I was replying to TBird's question regarding "pure" scientific reseach. I referenced the Curies as their names are probably better known than Roentgen's. I see also that you've yet to reply to my two questions to you. I'd like to add a couple more: Do you have evidence that the scientists you believed to be feminists were "shoe-horned in"? Are you saying that because of their views on sexual politics, their scientific skills and knowledge were lesser than others?
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@39
"Are you saying that because of their views on sexual politics, their scientific skills and knowledge were lesser than others?"
If they had the skills and knowledge they professed, then they wouldn't need to rely on feminism to gain their places, cf. WISE.
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Fearless - I'd give up if I were you. You're using logic and it isn't recognised.
I wonder is there any possibility that someone has lost out on a job/promotion to an applicant who happened to be female?
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@41
"I wonder is there any possibility that someone has lost out on a job/promotion to an applicant who happened to be female?"
According to Harridan Harman on June 2008, that will include all white men.
Ready for insurrection?
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JG, I, as someone in the Electronics industry, have no problem with an organisation such as WISE. For any one group in society to be discriminated against when it comes to employment is against the law. If there is an organisation making sure that one group (in this case women) have an equal chance of employment within an industry that can be done by persons of any sex, then fair play to them. Remember, the Sexual Discrimination Act 1975 applies equally to men and women. Tat, combined with the Human Rights Act (1998) create a solid framework that should prevent discrimination. You seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder regards women in industry. All I can say is that you should try to invent a Time Machine, as it seems the only time you'd be happy is back in the early 1900s. Time and the world have moved on.
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@43
Does it seem like that to you?
This is as it seems to me:
http://jimmygiro.blogspot.com/2008/04/measuring-real-bias-in-employment.html
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Regardless of ability, it is widely known that many women will migrate into caring professions, and men into science and engineering. Efforts to make both genders consider professions that are stereotyped to the opposite gender have been in progress for years. Not just WISE (Women into Science and Engineering), but also MICE (Men into the Caring Environment). Yes, I know the acronyms are cringeworthy, but the importance is the message.
I've just downloaded this year's GCSE results statistcs from the Joint Council for Qualifications.
Rounding to the nearest 1,000 entrants:
Art: 79 M, 126 F
Business Studies: 51 M, 37 F
Drama: 31 M, 61 F
Economics: 2.2 M, 0.9 F
Home Economics: 4 M, 42 F
Performing Arts: 4 M, 22 F
Physical Education: 96 M, 42 F
Biology: 45 M, 40 F
Chemistry: 43 M, 34 F
Physics: 43 M, 32 F
So much for gender equality...
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JG @ 38, if I want Truth, I doubt I shall quote you.
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@45
Who actually needs gender equality?
http://jimmygiro.blogspot.com/2008/05/devolving-towards-equality.html
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
A comment that has been placed by someone on the blog that the moderators allow to be promoted at (47).
You really sound like someone who feels very threatened by women. I suspect you are either gay, or have been rejected by many women, over many years. Your post is hard to follow and void of logic. You somehow try to insist that girls get better grades in school because boys do what boys do. Surely you could have put more effort into this line of reason?"
How come it can be promoted at (47) but I can't repeat it at (48)?
Either leave them both up or delete them both!
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JG @ 47: human beings of any of the eight or so sexes, as a rule.
TIH @ 41, I think it's probably a case of 'They wouldn't g-g-give me a j-j-j-ob newsreading -- j-j-j-just b-b-because I'm a man!'
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@49
Note that I don't censor (moderate) my critics; something you feminists need to learn.
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JimmyGiro (47) Who actually needs gender equality?
I think you do, if it's true that you have suffered injustice in the name of equal opportunities.
Have you taken it up with a solicitor?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
@50
By highlighting such distinctions, you are countering equality.
And if you impose equality, you are insulting those who do not need you or your ideals as their crutch.
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@52
I've taken it up with those that I have exposed. I'm presently locking horns with the local College and the DWP in two separate cases.
There are no solicitors here that deal with such issues; they're too busy making money in divorce cases and juvenile delinquency; both of which have a similar cause ;)
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I know I shouldn't. I really really shouldn't, but I can't resist.
"divorce cases and juvenile delinquency; both of which have a similar cause."
Go on, tell us the cause.
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@56
What is this 'us' that you speak; are you part of the BORG?
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Well, I would have said me, but I think other people will read it as well.
Right, I'm waiting patiently . . .
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@58
Are you holding your breath...?
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JimmyGiro - I'm with Horse on this one, in that I'm reading this thread - so we are officially an ''us'' - and both of you had me laughing out loud ;o)
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I've just taken a peek at JG's blog...his tagline is quite revealing: "Shouting from the void" (unsurprisingly written entirely
On the other hand, he's only blogged 11 times in the past 11 months, which suggests he hasn't got much to shout about...
As for the alleged feminisation of schools, what does he mean? Modularisation should benefit both genders, as it means less study / absorption between exams. The Increased Flexibility Programme / Young Apprenticeships allow those who are less academic release from school for several sessions a week to take part in vocational training (almost invariably motor vehicle maintenance for the boys, hairdressing or beauty therapy for the girls).
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Not to self: proof read before posting!
The parenthetical comment on line two above should have read: (unsurprisingly written entirely in caps).
Just so you know...
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Note to self: practice what you preach!
Line one above should have read:
Note to self: proof read before posting!
I think I'll leave this thread before I make any more mistakes and stop avoiding work...
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Not to self, eh ...
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Gillianian (60) - How very dare you?!! Mirth on the blog is not allowed.
Mittfh on the blog is allowed. But he's likely to be banished unless he improofs his prove-reading.
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J-j-j-immyG-g-g-giro @ 51, when you wrote 'Note that I don't censor (moderate) my critics; something you feminists need to learn' as a response to TIH's post at 49, you provided me with a working definition of what you consider to be a 'feminist': anyone who disagrees with you, whether what they are disagreeing about has anything to do with their gender, your gender or anybody's gender.
Thank you for clarifying that point, even if you didn't mean to.
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mittfh 145, Are you saying that GCSE results have something to do with gender equality? That they are 'fixed'?
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Mittf, Gubber, make that 45.
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TIH 49, Gays don't usually have it in for women. At least those that I know don't.
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McNick, I think the numbers are enrollment, rather than results
;-)
ed
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Gill 60, I might not agree with JG, but I am not an 'us'. I have recently been telling people on the beach that they are not in charge there and don't tell me what to do or say.
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DMcN (69) - not my words, just quoting from Mr PostalOrder's blog.
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TIH 65, "How very dare you?!!" That's from a gay character, innit?
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DMcN (73) - Yep! Don't confuse a quote with an opinion though.
And I don't think Gillianian was including you or anybody else (other than herself) in her use of 'us' but merely telling MrPostalOrder that there were more people reading the blog than him and me.
You're a bit thin-skinned for a Murcan!
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DMcN @ 73, why does it matter what the sex was of whoever first said it?
Feminist!
(what's the emoticon for 'tongue firmly in cheek'?)
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'Us' is now singular? Us is drinking a cup of tea. Is that like the Royal 'we'. (Not to be confused with the Royal wee.)
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DMcN - I know that you have English as a second language, but who has used 'us' as singular here?
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TIH 77, Yous. In your referring to Gill as an 'us'.
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DMcN @ 78, where did TIH do that? In post 74, one TIH plus one Gillianian equals two (three if J-J-J-J-G-G-G-G is included), making an 'us' rather than a 'me' reading the blog.
There's some snippy thing to be said here about your not reading it if you aren't part of that 'us' and that explains a lot, but I can't be bothered to work out snippy phrasing for it.
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@75
"(what's the emoticon for 'tongue firmly in cheek'?)"
It's a brown one.
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You all make me laugh ;-)
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Dave (several) -
I am not an us
I am not a we
Me plus Horsey equals two
Two are an us
Plus anyone else who is reading this thread
I wasn't telling you what to do or say
You can be an us if you choose to be....or not....please yourself. :op
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Gillianian - I do hope you're not telling DMcN what to do ... I mean, to do as he likes ... I mean, to do as he pleases ... I mean, if he does as he pleases, he'll be doing what you told him to do ... and he's nobody's slave, you know. Oh dear, it all gets so confusing.
:)
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Goodness me, just scanned through since my last. All I have to say is, re "Your misrepresentations of my words, and the tendency for my posts to be moderated, is the proof of bigotry" @27, I haven't represnated your words so can't have misrepresnted them. And there is no logical connection between the PM moderators removing your posts
and you labelling me a bigot. There's just no sense to your response. I was genuinely interested in your reasosnong but I guess you're not going to share it, so I'll leave it at that.
As for you David (30), Are you talking about me? Questionning your posts? I've asked you questions, but that's not the same thing. My you are grumpy today! It'd be nice if you could just be your old self again -- you know, sarky and American but without the huffiness... :-)
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@84
You made conclusions:
"I don't regard questionning feminism as bitter (25), and that isn't what you do."
Yes it is.
"You turn every thread into a tirade against women..."
No I don't.
"Why call me a bigot simply because I asked you a question?"
Your loaded questions include misrepresentations; which is part of the canon of bigotry: the refusal to acknowledge the opponents argument.
"I am genuinely interested in hearing your reasoning"
Then read for comprehension.
"why do you attack women at every opportunity?"
Quote me for truth.
"What has made you this way? Why are you so angry all of the time?"
More examples of loaded questions. Where is an example of me being "angry"? Try reading for comprehension.
"You must realise that you take a minority postion here and only suceed in angering/disengaging most posters of both sexes and so I want to understand where your perspective comes from."
So you don't like black guys?
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surely you mean 'black gays?' Ms Giro?!
oh dear me, I'm only here for a giggle
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(baffled)
How on earth does the question 'So you don't like black guys?' have anything whatever to do with *anything* that came before it?
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@86
Whatever turns you on giggles.
By the way, how dear are you?
"oh dear me..."
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Hmm! - I know that PostalOrder is a real numpty and is better disregarded - his (85) & (88) demonstrate that beyond doubt. But I honestly thought that DMcN had a bit of sense and could debate with intelligence and banter. I'm totally lost with his (78) - I honestly haven't a clue what he is talking about and I expect he doesn't either.
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DMcN (67)/EdI (70): Yes, I should have made myself clearer, they were the entry statistics (results were elsewhere in the table).
Chris (75): I'm not sure, but since :P is sticking your tongue out, then I'd presume :d is the nearest to tongue in cheek...
Everyone else: Don't feed the troll. This is usually a civilised place, and the last thing we need is a flamewar.
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mittfh @ 90, If everyone else isn't to feed the troll, does that mean that DMcN, Ed I and I have to do it in case the poor thing starves?
What do trolls eat? only I'm going to Tesburyson's in the morning, so I could get some of whatever it is...
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