Rape.
In a magazine interview being publicised today, the actress Dame Helen Mirren makes a contribution to the debate about rape, based in part of personal experience. She had spoken previously about being a victim of date-rape and was asked in the interview whether she'd reported the incidents to the police.
"No, you couldn't do that in those days. It's such a tricky area, isn't it? Especially if there is no violence. I mean, look at Mike Tyson. I don't think he was a rapist. If a woman voluntarily ends up in a man's bedroom, takes all her clothes off and engages in sexual activity in bed with him she has the right to say "no" at the last second."
In those circumstances, if the man ignored the woman's "no", it was rape, but Dame Helen added:
"I don't think she can have that man into court under those circumstances."
The solicitor general, Vera Baird described Dame Helen's remarks as "dangerous" at a time when rape victims were being encouraged to come forward. We'll debate her comments tonight. Feel free to share yours here.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
In case anybody wants to know what I said in 1, email me.
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@2
Don't worry David, I saw it and thought it was a fair and innocent bit of banter; the moderation of which does more to the discredit of the BBC's feminist neurosis, than it does to you.
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I read it David. I know that it was not meant to be Slander or Libel
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SM 4, Yes it was. Did you see the photo of the luscious Mirren in her bikini. It was all the reputable newspapers. I saw it in The Indy.
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I think her comment is fair and reasonable.
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If women say, "Yes, yess, yesss, yessss, YEESSSS!", how can they mean, "No." ?
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It is a very tricky area, I'll agree. Particularly given the shockingly low conviction rates, women are reluctant to take this crime to the police - it is a hard crime to prove, yet intrusive and humiliating for the victim.
And, without a doubt, if a woman says 'no', it has to be taken at face value.
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7. Rather obviously, McNickle, if they are saying "yes" in that way, they mean "yes". Don't cloud the issue by trying to be a smart aleck, it diffuses your argument and the point in question.
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"...evolving from a base and sexist society"
Since when is feminism not base and sexist?
If a man is led on, and then denied the culmination of his passions, that the woman was milking, then that man should have the right to sue the woman for any monies spent during the process.
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I thought it was only a matter of time before we saw a silly comment...
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It seems Dame Helen, like those who adhere to many crude cultures, religious and otherwise, believe that men simply can't help themselves and as such shouldn't be held responsible. This is bull****. We can, should and must take no as no at any time, otherwise it's rape. Any man who says different is either deluded, or lying. Any woman - rare but far from unheard of - who says yes and then claims to have said no, and is proven to have said yes, should be jailed, as to accuse someone of rape when it is not the case is a heinous act.
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L_S 9, I have no argument on the point in question. I'll smart *rs* wherever I want.
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I know that initiatives like Project Sapphire have changed the way in which victims are supported but I've still a nagging doubt about how it would work in practice outside the capital.
There was a recent conviction at Ipswich Crown Court where dating via text messages led to consensual relations then later rape and a conviction was secured and I have great respect for the police and the victim for pursuing this.
It would be interesting to know how conviction rates vary across the country and also what the differences are in conviction rates between male rape and female rape. Are male victims supported properly?
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Tbird 11, Yeah, that Lady_Sue was rather silly.
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David, please don't call other bloggers 'silly'. Regulars, like me, are used to your sense of humour, but Lady Sue doesn't visit as often.
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BS 16, Tbird said somebody (no name) was being silly. L_S shouldn't have called me a smart aleck. That really hurt. In fact, I'm going to The Beach.
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Big Sis, The use of the word silly by myself and then David was not meant to offend, as well you know.
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16. Thanks Big Sis - as ever, the voice of calm and reason. Rather like the 'Eddie of the Blog'. McNick's comment didn't bother me at all - but thank you for your kind words. McNick doesn't seem to know whether he wants to make intelligent input or just "smart rs" whenever he wants. Shame really, as it is a serious question and shouldn't be treated with the flippancy he is attempting. Think (14) RxK's comments are pertinent and interesting - does anyone have any knowledge of how this situation is dealt with elsewhere?
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Tbird: I know. But, did Lady Sue? And was your silly directed at her? - I doubt it.
Lady Sue: You're welcome. And I agree, the subject's too serious for flippancy of that kind. But I don't think DMcN really meant to offend.
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T-bird: I was amused at your comment and presumed it referred to (10) Jimmy Giro's comment about wanting reimbursement for monies spent - despite the seriousness of the point under debate, a relatively harmless and near-witty remark.
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Dame Helen seems to be confused, and so am I. She says that a woman has a right to say no "at the last second". What does this mean?
If penetration has taken place with the woman's consent - or even with her encouragement - she surely must still have the right to change her mind.
But the practical difficulty is, how much notice should she give? Putting it another way, how long has the unfortunate male got to vacate without risk of prosecution?
If she is thinking of an earlier stage in the proceedings, then the case is clear cut, regardless of how much the man has been provoked.
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(20) Thanks Big Sis - happy to have your guidance here. As you commented, I'm a relative novice and appreciate you're being a "real" virtual Big Sis. I might forgive McNick but the debate is far too serious for flippancy of his kind. This is a valuable blog for serious debate and offers interaction between "enlightened" members of society (those with the wit to listen to PM). Don't waste it, McNick and don't denigrate women who may have been through a terrifying experience.
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@8
If there is a "shockingly low rate of conviction", then you imply there is a great level of rape.
But if rape is so prevalent and under-reported, then why did Jill Saward only secure 0.7% of the possible vote, at the Haltemprice and Howden by-election?
Were the 'hidden' victims frightened of the anonymous voting booths?
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L_S 19, Are you trying to offend me by being silly with my name?
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Quote" We'll debate her comments tonight. Feel free to share yours here". Unquote.
I tried, Eddie -both before hearing your debate with two others and after.
And failed miserably. I am inarticulate - if a certainty of view is required. In the case she cited in the thread above.
Everyone else - for or against Dame Helen Mirren's remarks seem to have no doubts. She was wrong or confused.
What I am certain of is in future, to interviewers asking for her views in such areas, the very articulate Dame Helen should restrict herself to a nice smile and the words "No comment".
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Just like other forms of assault, there are different degrees of rape, but the law doesn't allow for this.
There is assault and GBH, both an attack on a person, but with completely different results, sentences, and they are viewed completely differently by the public.
This is what we need for 'Rape' - it is the equvalent of attempted murder or GBH in some circumstances, and common assault in others. If my husband or long-term boyfriend 'raped' me I would be very upset - but it would not be the same as a stranger dragging me into bushes - worse still, a stranger dragging a 14 year old into bushes!
There would be far more convictions if another word was used for lesser degrees of this crime, and this is what Helen Mirren is talking about.
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I do sympathise with Dame Helen, but there is a danger in over-stating the ramifications of what she said.
It is clear that she has mixed emotions about her unfortunate experience, and in the course of the interview she seems to be thinking aloud, and mulling over her feelings, but she seems to be focussing on her own situation at that time, quite understandably.
She is stating her opinion, in the same way that we state ours here. Will Vera Baird look at our comments and tell us if they're dangerous?
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24: Around 5 per cent of reported cases result in a conviction. Even allowing for misreporting, this figure is shockingly low. There are many difficulties associated with getting a conviction, not least of is which the attitude of the police, and judiciary, to this crime.
Along with many others, I find it shocking that 95 per cent of reported cases of rape do not result in a conviction.
Perhaps you find it acceptable.
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@29
What is the percentage of lying, or "misreporting" as you so euphemistically put it?
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Libranlass, Well said.
Indeed!Gillianian,
Sis, Pedantic point: How do we allow for the incalculable? How much one would allow depends upon one and one's perceptions. Very subjective.
Peace to all,
ed
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30 - It's a fair question, and there are no accurate statistics available. [I would say, though, that there is a distinction between lying and other cases of misreporting - for example when a woman has no recollection of giving her consent.]
Estimates of misreporting vary from around 5 per cent (on a female campaining website) to 50 per cent (on a male campaigning website). So, the truth is probably somewhere in between.
Speaking for myself, I think that any woman (or man - there are cases here too) who makes a false claim of rape should receive a sentence which makes it clear to all that this is a serious matter, and one which can ruin the life of the innocent party. Fortunately, it would appear that the law agrees on this point.
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EdI: That comment is not worthy of you.
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Rape is rape: unlawful sexual intercourse (by force) with another person without that person's consent (Chambers Dictionary).
It is rape in any context, by stranger, friend or partner, but there are varying levels of intimidation, force and violence by the perpetrators, as well as huge variations of age among the victims: people are vulnerable from birth to death.
There is no doubt that the victims often suffer for years, if not the rest of their lives. The experience may prevent them from having satisfactory sexual relationships, even affect their confidence in just going out alone.
Rape is a selfish act of power-seeking without regard for the feelings of fellow human beings.
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Sis, Sorry. I intended no offence, but find the use of "allowing for [insert inferred statistic]" sloppy rhetoric. And not worthy of you. ;-)
ed
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@34
It may even stop them from voting, as in the Haltemprice/Howsden by-election.
Alternatively it is the need for feminists to over egg the pudding.
Abrahamic religions need the devil; the nazis needed the communists; and feminists need rape, to scare their acolytes into line.
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@32
If the law agrees that it is serious to lie; and if the sentence fits the crime; then the liar should serve the equivalent time in prison as the falsely accused would have, if convicted.
I don't believe this happens; but if it did, then the number of accusations and convictions would change to your liking Big Sister.
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I agree with Lady Sue's earlier comment (#6) that Helen Mirren's opinion is "fair and reasonable". Mmmm why am I getting this strong feeling that the attacks on Mirren has less to do with a considered assessment of opinions expressed than to do with the British penchant (forgive me, I am an outsider) to bring down the crest-of the- wavers, the talented and successful . I sense -parodoxically ? -- a strong whiff of sexism here ?
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What ever happened to Heavy Petting? Perhaps in this world of laddetts and binge drinking we have forgotten that there are ways to cool the ardour (lust whatever) without penetrative sex (with consent or not)
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I'm sure that there are cases where someone is persuaded to report a lesser, more proveable, offence than the actual crime. The police have targets to meet too!
If you go out walking the dog and come back battered and bruised and with a stranger's DNA on you that is harder to the accused to defend. If conversely you appear at A and E with cuts and bruises but with your abusive partner's DNA on you it is possibly harder to sort out one party's word against the other. Is it a case of lying or is it a case of being pragmatic and chasing a prosecution which is more likely to be successful and take the offender out of circulation for a while?
Many moons ago I was in a flat share with a chap who could be "unpredictable." If he had gone for me I'm not convinced I could have held it together afterwards for the police to give a reasonable statement which would secure a conviction. He was an accomplished liar who could seemingly charm and cajole his way out of anything. A friend persuaded me to get him out and together with another friend, I did. Her argument? If anything did happen the police wouldn't attempt to prosecute because it would be so difficult to convict. The police persuaded us not to report theft of money and property from us by the same individual because it was difficult to prove and recover.
I'd always doubted women who couldn't report rape by a partner or friend but I woke up to it then. Would misreporting this make me a liar? And I'm sure many of the ladies who came through the trauma ward I used to work on had had more than just an unfortunate fall at home.
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JimmyG (36), I'm sorry, but I feel your comments are verging on the misogynistic there. You seem to be sugesting that the majority of allegations of rape are due to a cabal of "feminists" akin to a group such as the Nazis. Are you really making this parallel?
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@41
Yes, I believe that feminists are akin to the Nazis in their worst form, like all cults based on pariahs for their credibility.
And no, it isn't misogyny, since feminism is a cult that hides behind women, it is not women themselves; just as 'Nazis' and 'Germans' are two different things.
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42-
Eeeeeek!
Say something someone- he's not funny....
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@43
If you were my teacher, would you prescribe Ritalin?
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No, Molly, he's not funny - he's pretty scarey. Heaven help any women who have the misfortune to live in his orbit.
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Don't have nightmares Molly.
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RxKaren - Thanks for defusing that :o)
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Big Sis-
Beggars belief, really.
It's just a tad too far from where I'm standing. Think I'll just move on from this one.
Much appreciiation for your postings here , Big sis....
RxKaren-
I shan't, but feel amazed at what I originally thought was a ''wind-up'' as they say.
Off to bed now- just heard an owl!
Mollyxx
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@45
Tell me your fears so that I may learn.
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'Night Molly, and sweet dreams! Time for Monty's bedtime milk ....
Big Sis xx
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@49
"Lend me your ears"
Give it a break, Jimmy.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I didn't hear the interview, but find Dame Helen's remarks, as reported here, rather confused. And, in the sequence above, not altogether logical.
I admire her hugely, btw, and hope she has recovered from her own experience.
As for the posters trying to stir it, y-a-w-n... so unoriginal. You're craving attention, but do try to be witty, or at least faintly amusing, if you can't be interesting.
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Typical neurotic BBC feminists.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
libranlass @ 27, "Just like other forms of assault, there are different degrees of rape, but the law doesn't allow for this."
Ignoring all the flapdoodle that's been going on since then with idiots who have bees in their bonnets (naming no name) I think that's a very fair point and may well be what Mirren was trying to point out.
From another angle, someone who was raped by a stranger when she was say nine might feel really quite annoyed that her horrendous experience was put on a par with somebody of twenty-five, after being too drunk to remember one way or another what happened but on being told she'd had sex the night before, deciding that it was rape.
I know that the nine-year-old is statutory rape, but she may have undergone assault and battery as well (is likely to have done, if it was a stranger).
That said, the patterns of bruising caused by forced sex tend to be different from those caused by consensual sex; the difficulty is that very few women who have been raped are mentally able to go through a physical examination to prove their case, within the time limit for this to be clear. It also doesn't allow for the possibility of intimidation, but it would make forcible sex clear if only it were possible for women in genuine states of trauma to cope with that examination.
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Molly 48, I hope it was an owl...
JG 54, They've all been listening to Wimmin's Hour too much.
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@56
Explain... though you may need to get permission from Mummy first.
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@58
Does that imply that the remaining 23 hours are men's hours; if so, then I think men should have their TV licence money refunded, for trade descriptions infringements.
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F_O 53, I didn't hear the interview either, so I will comment on it.
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See what happens when you momentarily go to another thread? You miss posts 55 and 56. Tell me what Sid said JG.
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In post 55, David, I 'owned up' to having referred JG's post, which appeared to be threatening violence to me via a U-Toob link, to the mods.
Sid was just suggesting some medication.
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@63
So Tom and Jerry is a feminist issue?
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The link was to Tom and Jerry? - I think not.
Perhaps you pressed the wrong button, Jimmy.
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@62
Not much; the usual ad hominem, by those with more feelings than they know what to do with.
Apparently I should be given Ritalin due to my "behaviour". And to think Dame Helen had to pay for her behavioural fixes... sniff sniff, there's no justice for those that sleep with wolves, and wake with fleas.
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I tried to answer 44. But apparently some people can ask questions which no one is allowed to answer.
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Reading this thread re-affirms why I rareley comment on the blog anymore. What should be a serious and well debated thread is effectively ruined by the mysognistic comments of one individual. Everyone should be entitled to express their own opinoins and ideas without fear of being ridiculed or insulted - that is what the blog should be about. Some people need to get a life.
For what it's worth though I agree with Libranlass's comments that there should be varying levels of conviction.
Having suffered a very near attack many years ago by a so-called "friend" I can confirm it is a horrifying experience...and I was relatively lucky.
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@68
What misogynistic comments?
And how can you seriously debate anything without criticising feminism? This is the BBC after all.
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Good morning. I see that this debate was sufficiently interesting to engage other bloggers besides me back this morning to see how it developed during the evening.
Any chance of getting it back to a more serious footing and leaving the "silly" comments for different topics?
(27) Interesting comment: Should there be different degrees of "rape"?
(29) Big Sis: Sadly, the Crown Prosecution Service has to determine whether or not a prosecution is likely to be achieved. If they are of the opinion that it is going to be difficult to convince the jury, for whatever reason (eg. amounting to one person's word against the other), they can not commit the public purse to the expense of a court hearing. It is devastating for rape victims to have gone ahead with the required examination (57), to give lengthy, very detailed statements of what took place to police officers, to be prepared to go to court to have the perpetrator prosecuted only to be told by the CPS that, eg. for reasons outlined above, the case will not go ahead and see the perpetrator go free, able to tell all his friends and supporters that "she was obviously lying, the case against me was dropped".
(32) Big Sis again: agree that, if it can be determined "beyond reasonable doubt", that the women (or man) was lying for motives of their own, they should receive some kind of sentence.
(34) Consider the complexities of being raped by a relative, friend or partner. How much more complicated is the impact on a person's (I don't want to use the word "victim") daily life than the random act by a stranger that never has to be seen or dealt with again, save in a courtroom?
(40) RxKaren: I had a similar experience with a long term psychiatric patient. Very difficult when they can charm people into believing their version of events.
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Lady Sue(70): Yes, (29) I understand the difficulties, and you've put them very well. I didn't have the time, or words, to put it in such detail, so your contribution is welcome.
Like you, I feel any trivialisation of the issues is completely out of order. Anyone who has been the victim of rape would be outraged to see some of the contributions to the topic on this thread.
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PS to my 71 - If there is another place where we can discuss this further, there is more I would say.
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@63
It's the other way around.
You accused me @45 "he's pretty scarey. Heaven help any women who have the misfortune to live in his orbit."
Therefore I sent up your paranoia by refering to a "Happy Tree Friends" YouTube link.
You then responded to type.
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@63
It's the other way around.
You accused me @45 "he's pretty scarey. Heaven help any women who have the misfortune to live in his orbit."
Therefore I sent up your paranoia by refering to a "Happy Tree Friends" YouTube link.
You then showed your true colours.
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(72) Big Sis: thank you, as ever, for your kind comments and support.
I feel rather strongly that we should be able to discuss this here and hope that those who have attempted to trivialise this have realised the error of their ways.
Also staying with this blog is important in order to enable the PM Team to see how strongly their bloggers feel about this issue and to benefit from the input and comments. After all, isn't that the point of the PM blog?
I'll be interested to see if the debate continues on a more serious level and what, if anything, the PM Team make of it.
Thanks again for your enlightened input.
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@71 & 75
Typical feminist bigotry; and to think that at least one of you was a teacher.
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Jimmy, I'm afraid that the only bigotry I've detected here has been misogyny, and it's tendied to be in your posts. You have taken issue with anything that treats men and women equally. The link that you posted wasn't to Tom and Jerry, as you imply. It was to a cartoon that wasn't funny, and could be considered to be threatening to people. I suspect you quite identify with the character in uniform. You see everything in the world as a personal affront to yourself, and lash out (verbally) at anything you disagree with. May I suggest you log onto the Daily Snail blogs, as you'd feel a lot more at home there...
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76. Jimmy: I'm far from a Feminist, believing (as Bertrand Russell commented on organised religion) that "it did a little bit of good and a great deal of harm". I apologise if you genuinely feel my comment was bigoted but I am curious to know, if this is so, in what way?
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I think this stopped being a sensible thread some while ago and Big Sis and Lady Sue, with the greatest of respect, you are just feeding the troll when ignoring him would be so much better.
_____________
Aggie
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@78
I'm pleased that you are far from feminist, and BR is a good standard for inspiration.
This bit was what triggered my response to bigotry:
"I feel rather strongly that we should be able to discuss this here and hope that those who have attempted to trivialise this have realised the error of their ways.
"
Though I acknowledge the counter point:
"Also staying with this blog is important in order to enable the PM Team to see how strongly their bloggers feel about this issue and to benefit from the input and comments. After all, isn't that the point of the PM blog?
"
But the balance was tipped against your post, in my opinion, by referring to Big Sisters input as "enlightened"
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@77
As mentioned above @42; criticising feminism isn't misogyny.
But it is noted that feminists need you to believe that it is.
Can you guess why?
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(79) Aggie: I'm afraid that, reluctantly, I agree with you. It is a great pity.
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I think debate on this topic should even have been started.Rape is the most heinous crime committed by any person.
The person should be punished to a severe extent.
Each woman goes through a trauma after a rape..
It is not a joyous experience.
No debate should have been initiated on this topic,rather how to stop thi crime should have been the discussion..
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I couldn't respond yesterday because I am a feminist, oh and I probably have some neuroses too, so would have just inflamed that troll.
Grauniad speaks here; http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2008/sep/02/celebrity.women on Helen Mirren's "Senseless views on rape" and makes a good point about the Mike Tyson case.
I can though understand why Helen said what she did because she isn't the only person who wouldn't take some sexual situations to the police. Most of these are acts that women can live with, because they involve a level of coercion that we can integrate into the narrative of our lives, and they don't shake our core beliefs about ourselves.
Anything beyond this involves a need to reconcile events with our world view and it is then useful to be able to hold the perpetrator accountable. This would be more straightforward if all rape cases involved a violent attack in a dark alley, but they don’t. Research tells us that those who are abused are usually abused by those they know and abuse includes rape.
Maybe my namesake has done us a favour and we will take this opportunity to reflect on just what it is we need in place to challenge the low conviction and reporting rates. A more sophisticated method of either disproving or proving rape would be beneficial for both parties.
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@86
"I couldn't respond yesterday because I am a feminist, oh and I probably have some neuroses too, so would have just inflamed that troll.
"
So why ruin a good run?
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@86
PS: 99.3% of the good people of Haltemprice and Howden didn't agree with you either.
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Helen Sparkles (86) Welcome back! I agree that the problem often lies in the matter of proof, but take this as an example -
A girl wakes up in her boyfriend's bed, the morning after a party, both of them partially clothed. They get up - other people in the house don't see anything to make them suspect the girl is upset, or that anything untoward has happened. The boyfriend walks the girl home and everything seems normal.
Two weeks later, the girl goes to the police and says she was raped. The police interview everyone in the house at the time, but no-one can either prove or disprove that rape took place.
It comes down to one person's word against the other's.
I wonder if there could be any method by which a third party could know who was telling the truth?
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@85
"Rape is the most heinous crime committed by any person."
What about poisoning children because they don't behave like you want them to?
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Do not feed the troll.
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@89 & 91
Trolls know the truth, because we test it.
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My problem is, Gillianian, I have over-ambitious hopes with regard to human nature. I tend to assume that people are amenable to reason, and that if you talk to them reasonably they will understand. Unfortunately that is not always the case.
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@93
"...if you talk to them reasonably..."
If.
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lFF 68, The blog is what we all make it, not what you want it to be.
JG 66, How about a bit of Rohipnol? Who is this Miss Ogyny that people keep referring to?
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JG 87, Amazing how someone becomes a troll when they disagree with other posters.
Gill 89, In some Muslim countries don't women need two or three wittnesses to prove that they have been raped?
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@96
Feminists need pariahs, otherwise they'd need to explain to real women why they feel so miserable after following their advice.
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May be drifting slightly off the original topic here but this did provoke a bit of a discussion at work today.
Is there a climate in which rape has "lost" its original meaning and is being misused? e.g the rape of the environment was a phrase that someone had heard bandied around or when personal freedoms are infringed but not actually to the extent of a commission of a sexual assault as defined in the Sexual Offences Act. Extreme feminists may be guilty of this as too are extremist in other spheres who misuse the term.
Is rape a inherently a sexist crime as it can only be committed by a man? An indecent assault/assault by penetration by a female on a man may cause an equal amount of distress but indecent assault is possibly perceived as less of a crime than rape.
Ultimately rape is a crime of control. Has it been "hijacked" to be thought of as exclusively a crime against women? Where does this leave male victims?
This isn't intended to be inflammatory - just some thoughts that cropped up over coffee in the canteen. It's all becoming a bit furrowed brow isn't it?
It did provoke an interesting discussion at work and many of the questions raised never got resolved. I'd be interested to know what other froggers think.
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If "rape is defined as an absence of the free agreement to sex"
as here:
http://www.journalonline.co.uk/news/1005051.aspx
surely it applies to everyone, including adult males, trafficked illegal immigrants and children.
Cue the usual troll nit-pickers (nothing new, probably)
Eddie, have you got any other worm-can openers?
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Trying to ignore any argument about whether feminists are or are not human (personally I suspect that they are, having seen no reason to think otherwise) I went back to the top and looked again at what was quoted as having been said by Ms. Mirren:
+=+=+=+=+=+
"....If a woman voluntarily ends up in a man's bedroom, takes all her clothes off and engages in sexual activity in bed with him she has the right to say "no" at the last second."
In those circumstances, if the man ignored the woman's "no", it was rape, but Dame Helen added:
"I don't think she can have that man into court under those circumstances."
+=+=+=+=+=+
That doesn't seem to me to be her saying that it *wasn't* rape -- quite the contrary, she is quoted as saying that it *was* rape, in that second paragraph. What she *is* saying is that the woman can't bring the man to court for the offence in those circumstances, and I think that she is right *in fact*, whether or not it should be so. When a woman and a man end up in bed with both parties agreeing to be in that place, and one then backs out of having sex, what possible evidence can that person bring to prove beyond reasonable doubt what happened? There are by the nature of the situation no witnesses to support or disprove the statements made, on the one side 's/he said yes' and on the other 'I said no'.
The awful thing is that I can see how it can be argued that to think that if a woman says she was raped when she was too drunk to remember whether she consented to sex or not, she always has to be assumed to have said 'no' and it was always and obviously rape, is not completely reasonable. I can see that it might be perceived as rather bad luck on a man who had thought she consented and is told afterwards that she *meant* 'no' but was too drunk to say so. I can see too that if he was not sober himself he might fail to realise that he was 'taking advantage of her' (to put it at its least nasty) and go ahead with what he thought had been agreed to by both of them, only to find the police on his doorstep the next day telling him that she has said that he raped her.
What I don't know, and can see no way that *anybody* can know, is how many cases in which there were only two witnesses were genuinely rape and how many were one party or the other changing his or her mind and the other not accepting it, or the person who had changed his/her mind feeling too embarrassed to say so at the time and doing something that they didn't really want to do, or to have done the following day when they were sober. I have anecdotal evidence from people of both sexes that they were heartily ashamed on the following day of having had sex the night before when they were drunk or stoned -- whether they said so on the night before is another matter altogether!
Is it rape if a slightly drunken man is inveigled into bed with a woman he would not normally want to have sex with, and he feels on the following day that he protested against it but his judgement was overborne by a combination of her behaviour and his drunken state? If it is, then it seems to me that the same is surely true for a woman in the same position; if it isn't then it seems to me that ought to apply equally to a member of either sex.
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Eeek! I swear, I wrote my post at 101 before I saw Frances_O's post at100.
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@101 Interesting points Chris but a woman cannot be held guilty of rape under the current law. She can be accused of "causing a person to engage in sexual activity without consent" but not rape. I'm not sure that the public perception is the same although they certainly should be.
The Ipswich case was interesting because the first act was consensual and took place in her flat. The second act she alleged was forcible and without consent. I was surprised that they convicted the chap because it is one word against another. I guess it was the state of disorder that he left the flat in that swung it to "beyond any reasonable doubt." Apparently there was no alcohol imbibed to confuse matters.
I completely agree that if a woman can say "no" up to the last moment, the same should be accepted for a man and the consequences of refusing to accept "no" for an answer should be the same for both sexes and should be perceived as the same for both. I'd also believe that this should be permitted to go to a trial in court if necessary.
The issue about withdrawing consent after the act because you have second thoughts - I'm not sure on that one. Would you not realise before or during that you were being taken advantage of and withdraw consent?
With the issue of alcohol and ability to consent - if my parents had been under the limit I probably wouldn't have a younger sister! Probably easier with stranger rape if alcohol is involved but not so easy with date rape or rape within a partnership. Dunno...
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I was discussing the *subject*under discussion (!!!) with a friend earlier- the same age as Helen Mirren - and he said that it was an understanding that if a woman said *no* she meant *yes* and the chap was more or less obliged to carry on etc.
I can remmber accusations against girls (and they were girls) that they were *fridgid* or worse if they refused consent. Not easy times, the late 60s/early 70s for either sex.
Reading some of these postings, it makes me realise what a responsibility a son is. What you teach your son will affect ,at some point, my daughter.
And vice versa. Not to mention the poor teacher.And grandads and uncles, etc etc
Mollyxx
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Yes, Molly, you're right - there is immense pressure upon women even now to cave in to the 'needs' of a h*rny male. The comments made by your friend are, I think, quite commonplace.
I think the younger generation may have a slightly different take on sexual etiquette, though that's only from snippets I've heard. I seem to remember that RxKaren is one of the Blog's younger contributors, so anything she has to add to these points will be interesting.
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I'm sure they have, Big Sis, if the olld dress code is anything to go by.....
I do find that aspect a little worrying.
Not that thr male to whom you refer needs a margin of leaway (perish the thought!) but sometimes I can see that... well......
Still no excuse.
Bedtime! Time for Monty's milk?
Another day tomorrow!
Mollyxx
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Yes, indeed, time for Monty's milk. Hope the owl's don't keep you awake.
Big Sis xx
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Typical thread on a difficult subject. Starts off with the light hearted attempts to defuse a problem and avoid its discussion. A few serious questions that are ignored, intermingled by definitions that are just wishes for the future. Some insults at obvious targets, then resorting to stereotyped descriptions of potential perpetrators. Finally a support group emerges.
Its a classic and should be recorded for posterity as an example of British inability to discuss anything.
Just for those above that are obviously confused, this is the state of play in 2001: (Scottish based)
Google: "THE LEGAL DEFINITION OF RAPE 2001"
2 links relevant are the one on the Scottish parliament site, and a ppt just lower down on the "rapecrisisscotland" site.
I was amazed to find that out of 109 reports of rape only 44 got as far as identifying the alleged rapist. Has society got that bad we do not even know who is around us. I thought this country had CCTV everywhere. Could some one explain that statistic? Sorry I come from a small village, but even when I was travelling around the world I did not even get in a taxi with someone I did not know.
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David McNickle @ 95
"The blog is what we all make it, not what you want it to be".
On the contrary I think you will find that it is not just what I want it to be but what the vast majority of people who contribute also want it to be. As I stated yesterday this should be a place where we the listeners can join in what has been discussed and debated on the programme, we should be able to offer our views and opinions freely and openly - no matter how much they differ to other opinions - and we should be able to do this without fear of being ridiculed or insulted by some "nit-picking trolls" That is clearly not happening.
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lFF 109, OK, the blog is what I want it to be. As I don't know anybody here personaklly, I don't discuss anything seriously. In fact, I tell a lot of lies and assume that everybody else does. On the other hand, I use my real name, and it is not McNick.
JG has been here for quite some time and is not a troll. You, on the other hand, I don't remember.
As Freddie Truman said, If you can't stand the heat, don't play cricket....or something like that.
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Fi's been here since the earliest days, David, but just doesn't visit as much as you or I. Mr. Giro is a fairly recent visitor (unless he used another alias).
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DMcN (110) - Not like me to be serious on the blog but you've forced me into it David.
Fi (whose name caused confusion with Fifi and hence I presume, the name change, has been here for as long as I can remember and I've been here from the second day. I have to agree with what she says.
As for JG, he hasn't been here that long and seems to have one theme that he keeps harping on. The fact that he can't do it with respect for other opinion and doesn't display any social graces means that I mostly ignore his postings. If there was any humour in it I might take a different viewpoint.
It depends on your definition of troll, but if it approximates to 'someone who posts merely to provoke or annoy' I'd say he's doing a pretty good imitation.
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Worst thing is, Horse, that some people who were regulars are now keeping away from the Blog. These are our friends, and at least some of them are reluctant to have their views exposed to ridicule, and worse, from others.
If we all leave the Blog, it will become something entirely different from the (mostly) happy playground that we've know for the last two years.
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Thank you Liz and thank you Horse, your comments are much appreciated :-)
LittleFluffyFi
(previously known as Fiona, screen name changed following problems signing in when the blog changed a few months ago)
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Molly @104 - you're so right about the responsibility of bringing up sons - but also daughters as well. Mine are too young for this discussion yet, but by teaching them respect for others and for themselves at an early stage, I would hope that it would be easier to teach the boys about understanding consent and the girls about giving it.
As always, and as is obvious from this thread, it's an emotive, difficult and often misunderstood subject, and thanks to those of you with difficult personal experiences who have contributed.
Oh, and LFF's been on the blog forever.
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TIH 112, Oh yeah, OH YEAH!! Well I've been using the blog since Derek Cooper and William Hardcastle presented PM. It was done by phone back then.
If you ask me, 'you know who' uses several names. Either that or he/she/is is triplets.
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DMcN (116) - I'm afraid I don't know who 'you know who' is.
And btw, William Hardcastle thought the blog was an obstruction on the A1 while Derek Cooper was sure that it was a suet pudding from Yorkshire.
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EXTRA JUDICIAL KILLINGS OF NIGERIANS BY INDONESIAN POLICE
Dear Editor
This is to bring to your notice the extra judicial killings of
nigerians by the Indonesian Police, attached are the 2 pictures of
Nigerians shot and killed by the Indonesian Police three weeks ago.
Note that these Nigerians were not given the opportunity to defend
themselves in a competent court of law. They were never
interrogated or investigated by the law enforcement agents. The
police simply shot and killed them on alleged suspicion of being
drug dealers.
The lifeless body in first picture is that of Mr. Richard Anako. He
hailed from Osurmgho, Ihiala L.G.A of Anambra State . He was
accosted by the Indonesian Police in his Hotel Room in Kamayoran
Jakarta. When his hotel room was searched the police did not find
anything. Apparently looking for evidence to kill him, the police
then told him that they were convinced he was a drug dealer and
threatened to shoot him if he failed to call any Nigerian that
would bring drugs to him in his hotel room. He was given six hours
to do so or die. The late Mr. Richard Anako, sensing his life was
in danger, called Mr. Jubrila, the counsellor at the Nigerian
Embassy in & lt; st1:country-region w:st="on">Indonesia . He
informed the counsellor of his problem, gave him the name and
address of the hotel asking that the embassy should please
intervene quickly to avoid his being killed. He also called the
president of Nigerians in Diaspora Organization ( N.I.D.O.) who
quickly called the same counsel
lor, Mr. Jubrila pleading that the embassy should intervene on
behalf of Mr Richard Anako. There was no response from Mr. Jubrila
or the Nigerian Embassy until after the six hours when the
Indonesian police finally made good their threat by killing Mr.
Richard Anako and planting some drugs on him. The statement from
the police claimed that Richard Anako wanted to run away. Richard
was handcuffed and surrounded by the police. Is the claim that he
wanted to run away not laughable?
The Second Picture is the lifeless and mutilated body of Mr. Oliver
Osondu, from Ihioma, Orlu Local government area of Imo State . He
was said to have been accosted by the police on his way to a
shopping complex. There was no evidence of drugs found on his
person, but the police, convincing themselves that every Nigerian
is a drug dealer, decided to do it their own way by shooting him to
death. It might also interest Nigerians to know that Mr. Oliver
Osondu’s corpse was mutilated and most of his body parts removed as
shown by the picture of his corpse taken at the mortuary where his
body was deposited.
We, as concerned Nigerians, visited the Nigerian Embassy to ask why
they were not responding as expected to these extra judicial
killings. At the meeting with the Embassy staff, where the Nigerian
Ambassador to Indonesia was present, we asked Mr. Jubrila why he
was not able to do anything despite being informed by Mr. Richard
Anako and the N.I.D.O President several hours before Mr. Richard
Anako was killed. He, in the presence of the Ambassador said that
he had no power to stop Indonesian police from killing Nigerians
and besides, the call came in after office hours which meant he had
left his office and could not do anything. Though the Ambassador
made an attempt to explain to him that d iplomatic duty should not
have had any time frame in such a dire situation, it ended at that.
The president of Nigerians in Diaspora Organization told the
counsellor that he could have easily saved Mr Richard Anako's life
by just putting a call across to the state or federal police
headquart
ers in Jakarta informing them of the situation. That would have
made them know that the Embassy was aware of the situation and such
extra judicial execution of a Nigerian under such a circumstance
could have been avoided. One cannot help but wonder the kind of
Nigerian Embassy staff we have here. Are we not supposed to call
our embassy in need of there assistance or in distress? The casual
manner by which Mr. Jubrila answered our question was
disappointing. You could not believe it was a human life we were
talking about and someone who was sent to protect the interest of
our country expressed such apathy.
Any Nigerian could assume that our diplomatic missions in foreign
countries would have the interest of our nationals at heart.
Considering the type of treatment meted out to Nigerians here by
the Nigerian staff at our Embassy in Jakarta - Indonesia , many
Nigerians know that Nigerians do not form part of Nigerian external
affairs policy. This has been made worse by the ratio of tribal or
regional representation in the Nigerian staff of our Embassy here.
Presently, the Ambassador is from the North, the Minister is from
the north, the counsellor is a northerner among others. The few
southerners here occupy inconsequential positions. This makes a
ruse of the much talked about federal character in national office
composition. The Nigerian Embassy here is a laughing stock eve n
among Indonesian officials who severally tell us that we have no
representatives here due to the way our Embassy treats cases of
Nigerians even when they are approached by Indonesian officials to
help a Nig
erian in trouble, not with money but official papers to facilitate
their return to Nigeria .
We have to note that it has only taken the president of Nigerians
in Diaspora Organization asking the Ambassador to invite Nigerians
in Indonesia to address them, which the Ambassador is yet to do
despite the contents of our welcome address to the Ambassador on
arrival and other letters written to and receipt of which were
acknowledged by the Embassy. Attached are NIDO welcome address and
a letter sent to the Embassy by a concerned Nigerian. Also attached
is NIDO letter of protest on the recent killing and mutilation of
our national. The Nigerian Embassy here seems to be serving a
hidden agenda which is funded from the national purse. The levity
with which they treat cases involving Nigerians here smacks of
tribal or regional disdain and funding such a hidden agenda from
our common wealth should be reconsidered. Nigerians will be better
off without this clandestine outfit baptised 'Nigerian Embassy'
here.
The present Nigerian Ambassador to Indonesia , Alhaji Ibrahim Baba
Mai-Sule has replied to the letter of protest sent to him by
Nigerians in Diaspora Organization, Indonesia Chapter on the
mutilated Nigeria . He said they had sent a letter of protest to
the authorities here and asked for an investigation into the
incidence and a delayed disposal of the mutilated body. He assured
that the Embassy was working ‘diplomatically’ with the Indonesian
authorities on issues concerning Nigerians here which he would not
divulge to us.
This calls to question the type of policies on which Nigerians are
being ruled. Why should a few ‘all knowing’ individuals sit on
issues that concern millions of Nigerians, pursue such matters and
decide without caring for feedbacks from the wider populace as a
basis for their decisions? This calls to mind the issue of Alhaji
Bello Lafiaji former director of NDLEA. The ‘almighty’ Alhaji
Bello Lafiaji came to Indonesia few weeks after the arrival of His
Excellency Alhaji Buba Ahmed, the predecessor to the present
Ambassador. He was said to have met with his NDLEA counterpart in
Indonesia, Badan Narkotika Nasional (BNN). As soon as he got to
Nigeria, he made it mandatory for anybody seeking a visa from the
Indonesian Embassy to produce a letter clearing him or her of drug
related activities from NDLEA. A Nigerian applying for a visa at
the Indonesian Embassy has to spend, at least, thirty thousand
Naira on fees and tips at the NDLEA in Lagos. After the NDLEA
hurdle and getti
ng the visa, what mechanism does NDLEA have on the ground in
Indonesia to check the activities of those who came to Indonesia
with their clearance? Absolutely NOTHING. Is that not a clear
indication that such a policy was imposed on Nigerians only to
extort them and Line the pockets of NDLEA officers The so-called
NDLEA henchman in his dumbness did not even find it necessary to
meet with Nigerians here to add to his facts, if he had any. He is
now answering questions for wrongdoing. ‘Mr. clean’ is now swimming
in a pool of excreta. Hypocrite. The recent killings of Nigerians
being highlighted here is just a tip of the iceberg. Subsequent
write-ups will bring to the fore more horrible acts against
Nigerians here. The most painful thing is that our so called
Nigerian diplomats here always feel unconcerned. They only come on
long paid holidays here with their legion of wives, children and
extended families. All being sustained from our common wealth for
merely being ‘extra Nigerian’.
Nigerians should not be taken for fools by a mediocre group who
want us to see them as ‘Alfa and Omega’. We need to know how we are
being ruled and be part of solutions to our problems instead of
leaving our faith in the hands of a few inexperienced and
uninterested novices. The Nigerian Embassy here will continue to be
a failure until our so called diplomats swallow their misplaced
pride and work closely with Nigerians here for the good of all.
Do assist us Nigerian here in publishing this message to our fellow
country men and women, so they can read and understand our plight
and total neglect from those who are suppose to look after our
well being as Nigerian.
Remain Blessed
Francis
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