Alcohol. Thursday's report.
When people talk about alcohol problems in Britain, they often look favourably at France, and their apparently more refined drinking culture.
Over the last twenty years, the amount of alcohol that's drunk in France has been falling - but according to French Alcoholics Annoymous there are still around 3 million alcoholics living in the country with perhaps as many as 10 million people who have a borderline alcohol addiction.
Reporting for PM, our Paris Correspondent Emma Jane Kirby.
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Wibble.
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Your pleas will fall upon deaf ears Chris ;-o
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jonnie @ 2, to my complete astonishment, they seem to have fixed it, and in less than 24 hours!
It's really difficult typing from the floor here, but a stray bit of down from one of the pillows caught me a glancing blow just now.
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Um, it was working fine here all the time Chris, but glad it's good with you too. :o)
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"French Alcoholics Annoymous " - a most appropriate name.
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Eddie @ 4, it's moments like this that remind me why I feel that PM has a human face.
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As a drug, alcohol and mental health worker I object to the propagation of the 'disease model' and the use of the word 'alcoholic'. Whilst everyone has an approximation of what this term means it is extremely varied (if someone goes along with the 12 step treatment they consider themselves 'alcoholic' years after having last had a drink). The term does not feature in the DSMiv or the ICD10 and I can think of no circumstances where a doctor should say to a patient that s/he believes them to be an alcoholic. The whole narrative of this 'disease' or 'illness' over which people are powerless is unhelpful and the idea someone has to accept this label before getting help or changing their behaviour is simply not true. The biopsychosocial model is accepted virtually across the board.
I could go on but I already have a bit...Niall [Personal details removed by Moderator], Staffs.
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Paramedicsteve,
As a Serving Paramedic of 36 Years Service, I have seen the increase of our Young People Binge drinking and so in 2001 after dealing with 3 ,11 to 13 year olds unconscious due to Alcohol in the one evening and then a 12 year old abadoned by hies so called friends, I decided to do something about it by setting up the totally free resource pack called Don't Walk Away and Leave a Friend to DIE.
If you wish to access this free to good home pack type into any search engine Alcohol, Young People and you will be able to find the campaign.
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n scott @ 7 - you're entitled to your point of view, but my personal experience as a recovering alcoholic (and that of my many friends in AA and recovering addicts in NA/CA etc) is that the 12 step program works very well for many people.
The suggestion that an alcoholic is no longer an alcoholic many years after their last drink is dangerous - for if a person in recovery starts drinking again, they tend to go right back into active addiction. I've seen it happen many times - it's not pleasant.
I'd also like to mention that the standard "controlled drinking" model advocated by many in the medical and substance abuse fields simply does not work. It just carries on feeding the addiction. Abstinence is the only sure way out of the despair - and it's not impossible. What's so awful about not drinking alcohol? At least half the world's population manages perfectly well without.
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Coqidubnus Rex @ 9 I was not expressing a personal opinion I was stating what is objectively the case, in this as in other fields 'personal experience' should not trump evidence.
However, I agree abstinence and the 12-step approach has worked for many people and I do not wish to undermine this. The point I was making about the term 'alcoholic' is the fact that many individuals and professionals have different understandings of what this term means and this can lead to people talking at cross purposes.
A lot of harm is caused by alcohol but people can alter their behaviours without accepting a label and submitting to a 'higher power'. For some I agree abstinence may be the solution but I wish to make it clear that most services will not make this assumption and will work with people to achieve their goals.
Niall, Staffs.
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We are an animal with a fancy brain stuck on top. The animal can?t digest alcohol so it anaesthetises the brain. When that happens the animal falls down and the brain doesn?t work. What more proof is needed of a bad idea? As for ?moderate drinking? ? because of alcohol?s ability to affect reason, the first drink, taken sober, is always an act of negligence. But our culture is suffused by drink. There is both social and psychological DEPENDENCE on it, not least among our ?leaders?. The only way out is to enhance maturity from a young age; precisely what modern schooling mediates against.
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NS (7 and 10). I am sure you have the body of scientific opinion on your side, but the evidence that I have seen does not bear it up. In the last 8 years my husband has been told by a variety of counsellors, GPs, mental health workers, psychotherapists and other skilled people that he is and is not an alcoholic. The fact remains that the only time he has made any real headway against his addiction to alcohol and depression have been when supported by AA and following the 12 step programme. As soon as he feels he no longer needs the support that he receives there, and that he is able to have the occasional drink, he starts again on the slippery slope, and we are back in the position where he is unable to work, unwillling to leave the safety of his own home, and stealing from me, his elderly mother and, when he gets the chance, from members of my family.
That is not the person I married - he starts to lie to me becomes bad tempered, secretive and isolates himself from anyone that might be able to help. His mood change is, I am sure, caused by guilt. All that stacks up as evidence to me. I appreciate that this is subjective, but I know with whom I live and I also know that when he meets a health professional he can be a different person. The only people who truly understand it are other alcoholics - hence the value of AA, so please don't knock the programme.
tod
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NS @ #7 and #10, this is a very emotive subject indeed, and being seen as suggesting that *any* way for individuals to deal with it is not 'correct' will always be unacceptable even if you have not actually made that suggestion. I read your second post as definitely saying 'the 12 steps can work', but the first can be interpretated as saying that they don't.
I agree that 'alcoholic' as a term may not be particularly helpful when it is applied to all people who drink too much. I don't see what else they are to be called, though, if they can't apparently stop of their own accords. 'Alcohol dependents' might be accurate, but it might get mixed up with their relations/children. 'Alcohol-indulgents' would upset everyone. Do you have any suggestion for an alternative way to refer to 'people who drink too much and and for whatever reason can't stop doing it'?
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theotherdaughter @ 12
Thank you for your contribution. You took the words out of my mouth (although I am from "the other side").
n scott @ 10
I think you hit the nail on the head when you say that the term "alcoholic" is used differently by different groups of people, and that this causes confusion. If you are the sort of "alcoholic" who finds that you are unable to stop after taking the first drink, then AA is for you and all the counsellors/psychiatrists/outreach workers will not help one jot. Like theotherdaughter's husband, I too saw several counsellors and psychiatrists who diagnosed depression but refused to countenance the term "alcoholic" - even going so far as to say "you're not an alcoholic, you're just depressed" - despite me being honest (for once) about the amount, frequency and situations in which I drank (including a daily half bottle of spirits most mornings to start the day). So what did I do? I bought a bottle of vodka on the way back home to celebrate.
If you have an alcohol problem that does not result in this unmanageability, then you might not be an alcoholic in the AA sense, but you are still welcome, since the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.
Even though my evidence is, as you say, based on personal experience, it is still evidence. The results of research based on subject interviews where the subject is likely to be lying are perhaps suspect. Incidentally, I am a scientist by education, and a lawyer by profession, and I think I understand something about evidence.
While I'm here, the AA "higher power" does not have to be a deity, let alone a Christian god. The program is very clear that it is spiritual, not religious, and specifies a "god"/"higher power" of your understanding. I am an atheist (of the Dawkins variety), and I use the universe as a whole as my higher power (i.e. the four fundamental forces etc.). The point of the philosophy is to accept that you are not the most important thing in the world, and that the world can get along very nicely all by itself without your active intervention. Yes, AA does talk a lot about "God", but this is because of its cultural history. Even then, the founders of AA were very careful to be non-denominational and not specific to any particular faith. There are many atheists in AA, and we feel very much at home.
Don't knock it unless you've tried it. It's the only place I know where I see real evidence of ongoing recovery. This isn't to say that other methods of treatment don't work, but I know that AA works for me.
Finally, I wish you all the best, theotherdaughter. It sounds as if your husband is quite similar to the way I was only 18 months ago. Thanks to a treatment centre running a 28 day 12-step introduction program and AA, I'm sober (and happy) today.
Sorry if this is all a bit long winded, and I hope it doesn't sound too ranty.
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When we moved from America to the UK I was astonished to find out that parents happily give their childrens' teachers alcohol as a present. In America that would have been seen as completely uncivilized and inappropriate. Giving alcohol to teachers at school sends the message to children that drinking it (in quantities, by the number of bottles one single teacher would receive!) is acceptable, desirable and appropriate in a school environment.
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