Revolution on the rampage in France's Ligue 1
First there was 1789, then 1968 and now 2010. France is in ferment and not just on the streets in protest at President Nicolas Sarkozy's pension reforms, with French football also in revolt.
I think it's fair to say that almost no one, perhaps even their most ardent supporters, would ever have thought they would live to see the day when Brest - Stade Brestois 29 to give them their proper name - would top the French first division.
Brest had a sustained spell in the top flight during the 1980s - during which Real Madrid striker Gonzalo Higuain's father Jorge played for the Breton club - but by the end of the 1990s they had slithered down as far as France's fourth tier before crawling their way back up though the divisions.
It has not been been a meteoric rise for the club that can count the likes of David Ginola and Franck Ribery among their most notable alumni.
Four years in the third division were followed by another six in Ligue 2 before Brest finally won promotion as runners-up to Caen last season.
Despite losing 3-1 to Lille on Sunday, the Bretons are still in pole position in Ligue 1, leading this season's other surprise package Rennes by one point, with the pair playing each other in a fortnight in what may still be a top-of-the-table meeting.
Brest play struggling Sochaux on Saturday, in which Romain Poyet, who scored a stunning volley in that defeat to Lille, will be looking to hit the target in his fourth consecutive league game.
Brest's Romain Poyet is in a fine run of form. Photo: Reuters
If Poyet has been providing the goals, Brahim Ferradj, Ahmed Kantari, Paul Baysse and Omar Daf have been keeping them out at the other end of the pitch. Brest had only conceded four goals prior to Sunday's defeat, a game Kantari missed with his replacement Johan Martial having a shocker.
If there is a revolution going on in Ligue 1, what has been happening to French football's aristocracy?
True Paris Saint-Germain have edged their way into third and look alarmingly, at least if you are a Brest or Rennes fan, like they are getting into their stride, as demonstrated by their 2-1 win at the weekend over long-distance derby rivals and current champions Olympique Marseille.
Bordeaux, Ligue 1 winners just two seasons ago, are languishing in 10th place, while Lyon, seven-time winners between 2002 and 2008 and last season's runners-up, are just one place below them. Meanwhile Monaco are currently in the relegation zone.
Judging from previous comments on this blog, there are plenty of people who would argue that the current Ligue 1 table demonstrates the inherent weakness of French club football.
However, it's worth remembering Bordeaux reached the last eight of the Champions League last season, while Lyon went one round further after beating their French rivals in that quarter-final meeting, before they were knocked out by Bayern Munich.
Lyon's position in the Ligue 1 is mystifying given the squad contains the likes of Jeremy Toulalan, Michel Bastos and French international goalkeeper Hugo Lloris and was strengthened by summer signings of midfielder Yoann Gourcuff and striker Jimmy Briand.
But Gourcuff, who moved from Bordeaux to Lyon for £20m in the summer, has so far struggled to make an impact in his new jersey.
Gourcuff has so far flattered to deceive in the Lyon shirt. Photo: Reuters
Brest's table-topping exploits have a lot to do with exceptional team spirit and the outstanding work of coach Alex Dupont, but if the Bretons are to sustain their championship challenge they are going to have to stop relying so heavily on Poyet as they are averaging just one goal a game.
Despite losing Asamoah Gyan to Sunderland, Rennes might be a different matter. Stephane Dalmat and Yann Mvila are doing a good job for them in the midfield while Jean-Armel Kana-Biyik has been a find as a central defender.
However, having seen some of PSG's performances in recent weeks, with former Real Madrid and Chelsea star Claude Makelele still in magnificent form at the age of 37 and Nene in fine fettle down the left wing, I fancy the Parisian club to lift their first title since 1994.
France coach Laurent Blanc, who named his 22-man squad to face England at Wembley on 17 November, has clearly not been impressed by Brest's impressive start as there is not a single player from the Breton club in his roster. Can anyone tell me the last time a league-leading side of a major European nation didn't have anyone in its national team?
For the first time since the World Cup debacle, Barcelona left-back Eric Abidal is included, while Lille's tireless midfielder Yohan Cabaye also gets a recall and could win his second cap.
Toulalan, who was one of the ringleaders in the South Africa strike, is still in purgatory, despite his French Football Federation imposed suspension having come to an end.
The complete squad is: Goalkeepers: Cedric Carrasso (Bordeaux), Hugo Lloris (Olympique Lyon), Steve Mandanda (Olympique Marseille.
Defenders: Anthony Reveillere (Olympique Lyon), Gael Clichy (Arsenal), Philippe Mexes (AS Roma), Adil Rami (Lille), Mamadou Sakho (Paris St Germain), Bacary Sagna (Arsenal), Eric Abidal (Barcelona).
Midfielders: Alou Diarra (Bordeaux), Yohan Cabaye (Lille), Yoann Gourcuff (Lyon), Yann Mvila (Stade Rennes), Samir Nasri (Arsenal).
Forwards: Karim Benzema (Real Madrid), Kevin Gameiro (Lorient), Guillaume Hoarau (Paris St Germain), Florent Malouda (Chelsea), Loic Remy (Olympique Marseille), Mathieu Valbuena (Olympique Marseille), Dimitri Payet (St Etienne).
Comments on this blog in the space below. Other questions on European football to: europeanfootball@hotmail.co.uk. I don't need your full address but please put the town/city and country where you come from.
Q: With players like Thomas Vermaelen, Vincent Kompany, Marouane Fellaini, Dedryck Boyata, Steven Defour and Romelu Lukaku emerging, it seems like the Belgium national team will be a formidable force in the foreseeable future. Other players such as Edin Hazard, Moussa Dembele, Jan Vertonghen and Toby Alderweireld aren't too bad for a supporting cast either. Do these players represent (potentially) the brightest footballing generation ever for Belgium?
Amyn Merchant, Toronto, Canada
Certainly the players you mention are a very decent group but how many of them are really world-class players? Lukaku, in particular, catches my eye but does this team really compare with the ones of the 1980s, including the 1986 World Cup squad that had Jan Ceulemans, Eric Gerets and Jean-Marie Pfaff as well as an emerging Enzo Scifo, who was named the best young player of the tournament after Belgium reached the semi-finals. They could well qualify for the Euro 2010 finals, which would be a notable achievement in view of their recent failures, although I can't see them finishing ahead of Germany and topping their group However, they'll have to do better than in recent games, notably their 4-4 draw at home against Austria last month when they threw away the game in injury-time against 10 men.
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~12~RS~)
Hi, I'm Phil Minshull. I've lived in Spain since 1997 and covered Spanish football since the first day I got here. My blog aims to provide some insight into what's happening in La Liga, and there is much more to it than only Real and Barcelona, as well as elsewhere around Europe.
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Don't you mean seventeen-EIGHTY-nine?
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Nolan Roux at Stade Brestois is a young striker that bigger clubs in France if not Europe, will be taking a much closer look at soon.
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hopefully France will have its 4th different champion four seasons running!
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Can someone explain why French teams cant compete financially with the English? They have a larger economy by some measures than the UK, as well as 60 million compared to 50 million in England. What is it about the league set up that prevents them having turnovers like English clubs? I mean about 6 clubs in the premier league have turnovers exceeding Lyons!
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On the face of it this is a very weak French squad. Hoarau, Mvila, Valbuena etc are simply not in the class of French sides of recent decades. How long before Toulalan and Evra are welcomed back as saviours?!
And Yoann Gourcuff... this guy baffles me. At the world cup as in the latter stages of the Champions League last time out he simply drifted by in games. Maybe I've been spoilt watching Zidane, but if this guy looked like Jens Jeremies would he have created as much fuss as he has?
And PSG for the title? Never! They'll implode by February and Makelele will have stormed off into the sunset!
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Belgain football can definatly have a bright future with the group of players emerging in European football.Along with all the players mentioned above, I have to add Simon Mignolet, Sunderland 22 year old keeper who has been in fine form since he arrived from Sint-Truiden in the summer.He has not looked out of place while Craig Gordon has been injured, and if Belguims youngsters can have the right treatment and development by their domestic clubs, then there could be an emerging force in International football.
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Agree with Kernowboy71 re. Nolan Roux; the lad's coming on in big strides and has adapted well to Ligue 1 after a break-through year of sorts last season. Bearing in mind the form of Steeve Elana, I find it baffling that he's not receiving any recognition from Blanc, much like with the rest of the Brest players as Phil points out. Glad to see Dimitri Payet making the squad though, someone with the potential to become one of the best forwards in Europe in my opinion.
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"Can anyone tell me the last time a league-leading side of a major European nation didn't have anyone in its national team?"
a couple of weeks ago, when mainz were top of the bundesliga. schürrle and holtby have since been called up, but as i recall there were no mainz players in previous squads.
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I'm delighted that Lyon's hegemony has come to an end. It made French football stale and predictable. While France does have a few "big names", the History of French club football is one which is being constantly re-written: there isn't a club in France which has dominated L1 like Liverpool did in the 80s, Man Utd in the 90-00s, or Barca-Real in Spain. Reims was once a European giant, St-Etienne dominated France and Europe when Platini was playing for them, Nantes have traditionally been the producers of incredible talent, Paris-St-Germain was only created in the 1970s, while Marseilles, Lyon and Bordeaux can all claim some period of dominance, but nothing which approaches the continuity of other big European clubs.
I think this is a strength. It makes the L1 unpredictable, exciting, and less dependant on the financial power of certain clubs. Brest and Auxerre being two recent examples of this. It's still somewhat amateurish in its outlook and approach, and can be a welcome relief from the commercially-driven Premier League. A small promoted club can, through perseverance, talent, tactics, and good fortune, challenge for a Champions League place. Paris was almsot relegated 3 seasons ago. Nantes were relegated, and have struggled to come back since then. When you consider that this is a club who produced players such a Karembeu, Barthez, Desailly, Deschamps, Makelele, or Toulalan, it is quite incredible.
Finally, it's worth pointing out that L1 has proved a remarkable creator of talented players for the Premiership: from Cantona to Nasri, via Ginola, Henry, Petit, Vieira, Pires, Blanc, etc... If anything it's a good aplce to look-out for the next premiership star.
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I'm sure there were England squads named without any Arsenal players when they were top of the league. Maybe due to a Campbell injury, or else before he signed from Spurs.
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#4
Mixture of things:
- Higher top bracket income tax
- Clubs rarely own their stadium
- Internal/External markets is much smaller
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#11
Only one thing really: the relative size of the TV deals.
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As one of the few English supporters of SM Caen and a follower of the French League, I very much enjoy the unpredictability of the French League. Caen were promoted as champions of League 2 last season and enjoyed fantastic opening victories over Marseille and Lyon in their opening two games. Even with respect to Blackpool or Newcastle, how many of those would have recorded back to back opening victories over Man Utd and Arsenal?
I stood with 200 Caen fans at the away St Etienne game 2 weeks ago as part of a crowd of 32,000. The match was an end to end 1-1 draw and the home fans created a superb atmosphere, even when their team was trailing for much of the game. I've not experienced an atmosphere like that in England outside of Anfield.
It's a shame that none of the terrestrial channels nor Sky or ESPN cover this league- it's like football was here 30 years ago.
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Phil I'm dissapointed that you got 1789 wrong!! Also French revolutionary tradition has 1830, 1848 & 1871 as far more important dates than 1968.
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#11
What higher than 50%??
The internal market is defintley larger. France has a slightly larger popualtion and a slighty higher GDP, plus 5m people in scotland pay very little attention to the premier league (or participate economically in it) so that doesnt make much sense.
Is it something cultural? I know rugby is huge in France, does this impact?
Why isnt the TV as big? or even close?
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"True Paris Saint-Germain have edged their way into third and look alarmingly, at least if you are a Brest or Rennes fan, like they are getting into their stride, as demonstrated by their 2-1 win at the weekend over long-distance derby rivals and current champions Olympique Marseille."
You're kidding mean be? There's no way Marseille vs PSG called a derby!! Would you call Arsenal vs Man Utd a derby, or an intense rivalry? The only way a match can be classed a derby is if they're from the same city or region.
As for the Belgium quesion, I was thinking the same myself recently. Young, if Naive, team who seem to have a lot of Raw talent. I honestly think that in 5-10 years we could all be putting money on Belgium for Euro '20 or even world cup 2018 or 2022 if they keep developing the way they have been. Hazard looks better at 19 than Ronaldo did at his age but without the aerial presence.
Apart from this, enjoyable blog, enjoy some of your topics Gordon, looking forward to hearing some more which are less expected. Too often BBC blogs are all about topics which have already written about plenty enough.
Cheers
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@4 - The financial restrictions are much higher. Clubs operate under the banner of the auspicious DFCG (Dirigeants Finances Gestion) which dictates that clubs must show profitability for the upcoming season or risk losing their playing license. Even if you are going to lose 50 euros in the upcoming season you will risk losing your playing license. This goes for all businesses operated in France. The Glazer financial model would never run in France.
@5 - Yeah, I agree. Unfortunately, our squad is often too thin to mount a serious title challenge. But we'll be strong in the cups as always. We've just made the League Cup semi-finals again tonight after beating Valenciennes 3-1.
@11 - Agreed.
@12 - Ligue 1 has the second high domestic revenue market behind the Premiership. The problem has been selling rights abroad, especially to Asia which has been a financial hindrance for the moneymakers. This has changed at the start of the current season however, as the LFP have negotiated a new deal.
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@5
I think you're too harsh on Gourcuff. Firstly, overall, his contributions to Bordeaux's champions league campaign were stellar. You also have to remember, it's largely due to him that Bordeaux won it's first Ligue 1 title in ten years - Laurent Blanc happily admits this.
In regards to the World Cup, the entire French side were rather poor and Domenech had lost control of the lockerroom. For the first game against Uruguay, Anelka and Ribery refused to even pass the ball to Gourcuff, not much a playmaker can do if he's ostracised by some of his team-mates. Those who follow French football will know what I'm talking about.
You make the comparison with Zidane, which was very common in the French media after his 2008/2009 season, what you need to remember though, Zidane was Gourcuff's age when he made his first appearance for France. He was 27 at the 1998 World Cup, so I think he should definitely be given more time, especially with all the pressure of the Zidane comparisons.
In regards to his current form with Lyon, remember, it was a rather late transfer and he's now being used in an entirely different system to Bordeaux. He no longer has a number 10 role at Lyon.
In regards to the current Ligue 1 standings, the correction is already talking place - look at the recent form of St Etienne. The season is still early and even with the handicap of Claude Puel, I expect Lyon to be on the podium at the very least.
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#17
Aahh, right OK. That makes sense. I suppose it has the benefit of making clubs unreliant on billionaires/the never never and be run properly. Surely the domestic TV deal could be bigger though? The latest info I can find is a 4 year deal that was worth just under 700m euros for 4 years. Compare that to like £1.3bn for the premier league and you see what I mean. Any ideas on why this is?
Im not well up on french football, but it has struck me their clubs havent done as well as would be expected for a large, wealthy western european country.
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'Can anyone tell me the last time a league-leading side of a major European nation didn't have anyone in its national team?'
On the first of October 2000 Leicester topped the premiership. Ok not very far into the season i'll admit, but no players in that squad were in the England national team. Emile Heskey went on to be but only after he joined Liverpool, and Steve Guppy got 1 cap (somehow!) but it wasn't at the time.
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I don't know if this counts but Inter won Serie A last year and none of their players went on to represent Italy at the World Cup.
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#4
They don't have the same money from the TV deals and neither does the league attract big crowds.
See here: http://www.ligue1.com/ligue1/affluences/remplissage
Only two teams (Marseille and Lyon) get average crowds over 30,000 and even in terms of percentage of capacity, half the teams can't even fill two-thirds of the stadium.
But on the point Phil was making, it's a bit early to claim there a big revolution going on. They're only 11 games into the season and PSG, Marseille, Lille and StEtienne are only one win away from taking top spot from Brest.
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For what reason is Marseille vs PSG a derby? Seems an odd one, is it down to an ill tempered game years ago or something.
PSG will win Ligue un this season I feel.
In response to the Belgium question above. This has surely got to be their strongest emerging team ever. I would put Vertonghen up in that 1st bracket however, and him and vermaelen could really be the cornerstone of an amazing defence. With Fellaini sitting just in front. Lukaku I think will be suited to the International game and will get better with age.
What they lack I feel, is the Luc Nilis of old, the Enzo Scifo. That little bit of linking up magic.
But as a functionaly robust side, I think they will target the 2014 WC as the tournament where they'll excel
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Yeah mate, a real revolution is on the cards. What with Marseille, last years champions being a whopping 3 points off the pace ( they would have gone top if they had beat PSG, and is it that surprising they lost away with a round trip of 700ish miles?) and Lyon, who had that long dominant period a few years back have no chance as they are 5 points behind.
I'm not taking anything away from Brest, PSG or Caen as they have had excellent starts, but this whole article is so knee-jerk it's unreal.
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Anyone who follows French football will know that PSG will not win the L1 this season. Don't get me wrong, they are doing pretty well, and surpassing all expectations, but PSG has a self-destructive tendency built inside its DNA. If the players don't mess up, the directors, the fans, or the manager will. A top three finish for Paris would already be an incredible achievement for this team who have been drifting in the lower half of L1 for the past few seasons. I say all this as a Paris fan.
I think Marseille will win it again this year. As incredible as Brest's exploits are, it's hard to see them lasting the whole season. Rennes could be in with a shout, but Marseille has all some very good players this season who have not hit top form yet. When Lucho, Gignac, and Remy start to wake up a bit, they could do some serious damage.
Finally, Paris-Marseille is a "derby" in the same way that "Real-Barca" is a "derby". There is an intense rivalry between the two teams, between their fans, and this rivalry goes belong football. Like all good rivalries, it's cultural and historical too. If "derby" is defined by geographical proximity, then it clearly isn't one. But if you think calling it a "derby" is bad, in "L'Equipe" (the msot famous and widely read sport newspaper in France) they constantly refer to it as the "Classico". In Spanish. Beats me...
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@weezer316
Although populations of both countries are similar, the population of football fans is significantly smaller in France.
Whereas pretty much every British citizen declare some kind of interest in football, France is very different and it is often a very "in" thing to actually detach yourself from all things to do with football and the sport is mainly an attraction for what Britain classifies as "working class" and "lower middle class" people.
This impacts on media coverage too.
L'Equipe (the sports daily) is the only newspaper covering extensively football (and sports in general).
In reality it is no more than what the quality newspapers will offer in Britain with their Sports Pages.
Add to this the fact that the other national quality papers make little or no mention of sports in their pages (max 2 pages per day) and you get an idea of the general interest in the country.
Also, France is very different to Britain when it comes to sports participation.
Just focusing on team sports and without wanting to simplify too much, Britain pretty much lives on football, rugby and cricket.
While figures for football and rugby are similar in both countries (you win for cricket!), France offers a greater variety which tends to dilute both the participation and interest with sports such as Basket-Ball, Handball, Volley-Ball attracting significant numbers (over 1m people cumulated).
Add to this the ever growing popularity of individual sports like tennis (1.3m registered members), martial arts and various regional pockets for minor sports and you get a very different picture from the UK.
To go back to Phil's original subject, Brest's position at the top of the league should only be temporarily and I would be really surprised to see them there at the end of the season.
On paper, Lyon and Marseille are (still) the strong favourites for this season.
Their squads are the most complete and impressive.
They both started somewhat slowly.
In my mind it is mainly due with not being able to prepare properly in the pre-season with so many players resting after the World-Cup and too strong focus on trying to defend their chances in the Champion's League.
In reality, Stade Rennais has nearly all the ingredients to win the title. A well run club that has been slowly gearing up towards success by developing young and hungry players, they are solid defensively and are able of playing some quality football at times.
The only thing they are missing is the belief they can do it and a history of success having only won 2 significant titles more than 30 years ago.
If Rennes do well this year, this could mark the start of a new era in France...
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Ligue 1 is the lowest scoring, most defensive, and dullest football league in Europe.
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@4 One of the big problems is the fact that like clubs in Brazil, Argentina etc youth talent doesn't stay for very long in France. Take the examples of Ronaldinho a few years back and players like Nasri, Anelka and Jeremy Menez : they all start in France but get pillaged mostly by English Clubs after 1 or 2 good seasons of first team football. Therefore as a Marseille fan I can easily point out to you we get stuck with players like Valbuena , Gignac and Edouard Cissé, who are decent players but nowhere as good as a Nasri, and we have to try and win the title with players like this who never develop into fully grown internationals ( Gignac is rubbish what a waste of 18 million euros ). This, coupled with inflation, means French teams cannot afford to pay over the odds for good players because they have to maintain positive bank accounts every year which are monitored and checked upon by a very influent and powerful DNCG, which is a sort of poisoned chalice but will pay off when UEFA introduce this financial fair play business !
This blog is a bit over the top, I mean come on as its been said other teams are only 1 or 2 points off the top.
Marseille will win again we have the strength and depth in the squad but I hope we sign a decent midfielder this winter because Cissé and Kaboré have shown their limits...
Lyon will struggle this season but should qualify for the Champions League
Bordeaux midtable finish
PSG = every season they start well, and the media and the fans hype it up and everyone gets excited, but then look at their squad as soon Hoarau gets injured inevitably again and Erding is off form then the team will slump as usual and finish in the top 10. Nênê is a good player but like Niang he spends too much time diving !
Ligue 1 is a really interesting league but I believe its one of the worst run in Europe , with Dinosaurs running the FFF like it was still 1980 ! And also a lack of ambitious managers who play too conservative football...
Hopefully when teams in L1 stop being so defensive and cautious we will see a much more entertaining league closer the EPL style of play. This would happen faster if the EPL stopped stealing all of our talent lol
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Concerning the financial situation in France for Football clubs:
1) #27 is correct, i live in France and it is true
2) Very few clubs have the following that English clubs have, so they have less revenue from ticket sales (season tickets or otherwise). 3 French football clubs make into the top 40 European clubs classed by average attendance, compared to 10 English clubs....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_attendances_of_European_football_clubs
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French are not as football crazy as us so spend less money. Or less crazy about spending money on non-profitable playthings!
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#19, the Premier League has been far better than others at selling itself to other countries, despite having a poorer product than many. Indeed as one chap pointed out about Ligue 1 becoming predictable, you'd have to level the same criticism at the Premier League, it is most definitely staid and uninspiring generally.
Also, the TV companies in the UK have a form of income in subscribers, and can sell their products to the US and other countries far easier than the European equivalents. Meaning they generally make more, add in the higher advertising revenues and you can see why they have far more money to play with. In Germany though, the financial ombudsman limited the price of the TV deal, meaning the clubs incomes were in effect restricted by the state in order to avoid people earning obscene amounts of money out of the game. Can you imagine the same thing happening here? You could hardly argue that their quality has suffered because of it, they still have the most entertaining league going and gave our national team a right beating recently.
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"Stephen Ireland personifies my maxim that going from the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step-over.”
Napoleon Bonaparte on Gerard Houllier's French Revolution at Aston Villa.
http://www.inofftheghost.wordpress.com
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Inter Milan (national and European champions) didn't have 1 player in Italy's WC squad.You really should know these things Phil!
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23. At 09:26am on 11 Nov 2010, tomefccam wrote:
For what reason is Marseille vs PSG a derby? Seems an odd one, is it down to an ill tempered game years ago or something.
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It's a massive game between the two biggest clubs in France, with the most passionate fans.
In Italy, they call Inter v Juventus the Derby of Italy although they're from two different cities, admittedly in the same geographical area.
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It is still early days in the French League with Bordeaux and Lyon only 5 points off the leaders Brest. Hardly a French revolution.
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the History of French club football is one which is being constantly re-written: there isn't a club in France which has dominated L1 like Liverpool did in the 80s, Man Utd in the 90-00s, or Barca-Real in Spain
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not too sure about this, Lyon won 7 championships in a row between 2001-2008
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Firstly, apologies to everyone who spotted the error about the date of the original French Revolution.
It was nothing more sinister than a typo, cold fingers on the keyboard, and it has now been corrected.
Spaced Invader: “How long before Toulalan and Evra are welcomed back as saviours?” It will not be very long, by my reckoning. I have a feeling that fact that, as long as they are in good form, Blanc will recall the both for the next Euro 2012 qualifier against Luxembourg. Evra’s five-match ban is now over and I think he was only left out for the match against England for symbolic reasons.
hjwoj1990: “Glad to see Dimitri Payet making the squad though, someone with the potential to become one of the best forwards in Europe in my opinion.” I agree. Personally, I’d like to see him start against England, rather than Benzema, and get an hour of international football under his belt after two appearances as a sub against Romania and Luxembourg.
FootyWins (and tomefccam: “There's no way Marseille vs PSG called a derby!! Would you call Arsenal vs Man Utd a derby, or an intense rivalry? The only way a match can be classed a derby is if they're from the same city or region.” There was a lot of debate last year about what constitutes a derby when I blogged about El Clasico - Barcelona v Real Madrid. This is what I wrote at the time. As GiveAndGo also points out, geographical distance doesn’t come into it, traditional rivalry does.
“This is what my Concise Oxford Dictionary says...
Derby – 1. annual horse race at Epsom (~ Day) that of the race; similar race elsewhere. 2. any important sporting contest; local ~ between two teams from the same district.
Therefore, it's a derby in my book.”
panhard24: “I think you're too harsh on Gourcuff. Firstly, overall, his contributions to Bordeaux's Champions League campaign were stellar.” Yes, they were. However, many people would say, and I would agree with them, that his he still only sparingly shown that type form during the last season-and-a-bit. He’s been maddeningly inconsistent.
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the History of French club football is one which is being constantly re-written: there isn't a club in France which has dominated L1 like Liverpool did in the 80s, Man Utd in the 90-00s, or Barca-Real in Spain
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There have been periods of domination. For most of the past decade it has been Lyon. In the mid to late 90s it was Paris SG and Nantes. From the late 80s to early 90s it was Monaco and Marseille. For most of the 70s and early 80s it was St Etienne and Bordeaux.
If you had to say who were the biggest clubs in France though with the most passionate following it would undoubtedly be Marseille and Paris SG, bearing in mind that France doesn't have the same kind of football culture that England, Spain and Germany has, for example. Lyon have been the most successful recently and I would think most outside observers consider them the most important club in France, but it's more the case that until recently their President Aulas made them the most well-run club in France. The biggest teams by far are PSG and Marseille, no argument.
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Paris v Marseille a derby??
Rivals, yes.
But a derby?!
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Let's be fair to Phil. If "derby" meant "local" then it would be tautology to say "local derby". A derby is a keenly contested match, with some history behind it. A local derby is a derby between teams in the same locality. So I can't see anything wrong with "long-distance derby".
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#26 - Absolutely
To go a step further - in France there is simply not the same preoccupation with football (or in fact any sport) than there is in the UK. There is not a "lad" culture to speak of (although there is a very macho streak).
It seems that football in France is not a matter of life and death, but very much less.
France's 1998 World cup victory was incredible as much for the political "Black, Blanc, Beur" (Black, White, Arab) symbolism than for any purely sporting reason. And even after winning the European cup in 2000 it seems that the population is convinced that there are still many more important things in life than the round leather ball.
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'Can anyone tell me the last time a league-leading side of a major European nation didn't have anyone in its national team?'
It may have been a rhetorical question, but surely the answer is an obvious one? Internazionale, 2010's most decorated European club, did not have a single member of the Italian World Cup squad on its books.
I'm sorry to be so pedantic, but come on!
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# 15
France does indeed have a very slightly higher GDP than the U.K. If however we are referring to the English Premier league, France's GDP per capita is notably lower than that of England. Internal/External investment in the league is a tiny fraction and access/potential access to emerging markets a tiny fraction of the EPL's in a nutshell...
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Good read phil!
http://thelibero.blogspot.com/
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A PSG/OM game is called a "classico" (perhaps wrongly so), not a derby: a derby is only between two clubs of a same area (Lyon vs St Etienne).
About the weird state of the Ligue 1, I would say that maybe, the catastrophe that was the 2010 World Cup for France has had an impact: the international players who went to South Africa and then went back to their clubs (mostly the "big ones", Marseille, Lyon, etc.) have found it really hard to come to terms with what happened (Jérémy Toulalan, for instance, was really shattered by the whole thing and he is one of the key players in the Lyon team; it took him some time to get back to his usual playing level). Maybe French-squad members playing outside France (Malouda, Anelka...) have found it easier to digest the fiasco because they're not in the country and they haven't had to face up to their actions and take on the national anger. At least, not as much as the others. As far as I can see, Anelka is very well-loved in England, and pretty much hated by everyone in France.
In the meantime, "smaller" clubs like Rennes or Brest, without any international players, have started their season in the best dispositions and without any real pressure, which is important too. But I think that as time goes by and the WC consequences wear off, Lyon and Marseille will perform better. However the situation is not that bad for them: after all, at #8 in the rankings, Lyon is only 3 points away from the leader Brest.
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Marsielle have average attendance figures that could only be topped by Man U or Arsenal or maybe Newcastle. 53000 is not to be sniffed at. Lyon get near 40,000 so the biggest teams are big draw. How do you think Lyon spend so bleedin much every summer with all these financial controls?
PSG seem to have serious dosh too. They bought Anelka for 23million or something daft after he was at Real. Lisnadro Lopez, Ronaldinho, Gourcuff were all wanted by top teams with money to burn. But french top clubs there can compete in the transfer market. They must be making money. I think the quality is under-rated. Last years champs league being proof
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