Why El Clasico is the biggest derby of them all
It's finally here - El Clasico.
Well, the countdown has begun to El Clasico on Sunday - although it actually began in late July when the Spanish fixtures computer spewed out the date of the clash.
Spanish league leaders Real Madrid travel to bitter rivals Barcelona for perhaps the most emotional derby game in the world.
Neither side ever needs any extra motivation for this match but, as often in the past, the first encounter between the pair this season appropriately brings together the top two teams in La Liga.
However, the question that any football-loving Martian might rightly ask is why should two clubs that are 630 kilometres apart, according to my road atlas of Europe, be such deadly enemies?
Many of the other great match-ups in Europe - think about Inter v Milan, Lazio v Roma or even Fenerbahce v Galatasaray - take place between teams in the same city, but the sheer animosity and tension surrounding this Spanish derby transcends distance.
"Two languages, two peoples... two countries?" wrote Andy Mitten, the author of Mad For It: From Blackpool to Barcelona, Football's Greatest Rivalries.
Within one frontier, he perhaps should have added.
It's as much of a clash of ideologies and history rather than a kickabout between the 22 men, two-thirds of whom are not even Spanish, who will face each other on the football field.
"Derbies overseas often have a more overt political and religious context," added Mitten, and he couldn't be more accurate about the emotions that stir behind Spain's big match.
The motto of Barcelona is 'More than a club' and the reigning Spanish and European champions have aimed for most of their 110-year history to be exactly that, even if they were founded by a Swiss immigrant, Hans Gamper.
Keeping it simple, as there are plenty of books on the subject, Barca broadly represents the autonomous regional aspirations of Catalonia against central control from Castile which in their opinion, and many others of all political persuasions, is embodied by Real Madrid.
Football fans from Castile and Catalonia have only been at each other's throats since 13 May, 1902 - the date of the first match between the two clubs, which Barca won 3-1 at what was then just plain Madrid FC - but the legacy of disharmony between the two regions goes back centuries.
And it wasn't long before Madrid-Barcelona matches became more than a game.
Firstly, Madrid got the Real - royal - prefix in 1920 and they then became the favoured club of Europe's longest-lasting 20th century dictator Francisco Franco, who came to power in 1936.
For much of Franco's 39-year dictatorship the Camp Nou was the only place in Spain where Catalan could be openly spoken and the police wouldn't intervene.
"The Catalans feel Catalan first and Spanish second, and to prove it they have fought wars and made revolts against Madrid. Until recently, they always lost. This century, for instance, in the civil war of the 1930s Catalonia held out longest against General Franco, but then suffered under his yoke until he died in 1975," commented Simon Kuper in his award-winning Football Against The Enemy.
BBC presenter Gary Lineker, who is still a derby-day hero at the Camp Nou after scoring a hat-trick in Barca's 3-2 win over Real in 1987, added: "You can't make a comparison with the Everton-Liverpool derbies or the north London matches I played in for Spurs against Arsenal where you have two teams from the same city and a split crowd... you were playing in front of 120,000 people and there were no away fans."
Having been at many of the derbies in the Camp Nou since 1997 - including the infamous match in 2001 when a pig's head was thrown at the 'traitor' Luis Figo - I can testify that there is nothing at any other ground in the world that I've been to which can equal the cauldron of noise from the 98,000 Barca fans (the current capacity of the Camp Nou) baying for the blood of the Real Madrid players when they walk out on to the pitch.
Not even the reverse fixture in the Santiago Bernabeu generates such an intimidating atmosphere.
"The windows of our coach would routinely be smashed by bricks on every trip to Barcelona. That was truly frightening. On the short trip from the hotel to the Nou Camp we'd all cower down on the floor as the driver put his foot down," recalled former Real player Steve McManaman.
Despite the fact that some of the ancient political grievances have ebbed away with the advent of democracy, enhanced by further self-governing rights being granted to Catalonia three years ago, the match continues to be a focal point for both clubs' fans.
Barca's 6-2 thrashing of Real Madrid in the Santiago Bernabeu indirectly led to the events of last summer which we all know about.
Samuel Eto'o (centre) and Sergio Busquets (right) celebrate Barcelona's 6-2 win at the Bernabeu in May
The day after that match in May, after sitting quietly on the fence for a few months, Florentino Perez let his friends in certain Spanish media know that imminently he would be announcing the fact that he was looking to return as Real president.
Once he returned unopposed, Perez then embarked on his €270 million spending spree which saw Real sign Cristiano Ronaldo, Kaka and another four top-class internationals.
It's debatable whether he parted with the almost-obscene amount of money in order to win a historic 10th European crown or just to avoid another humiliating defeat at the feet of Real's eternal rivals.
Hi, I'm Phil Minshull. I've lived in Spain since 1997 and covered Spanish football since the first day I got here. My blog aims to provide some insight into what's happening in La Liga, and there is much more to it than only Real and Barcelona, as well as elsewhere around Europe.
© MMX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~55~RS~)
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Excellent article- I was always wondering why this was considered a derby...
Barca to take it for me.
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I cannot wait for this! Last season's 6-2 was a fantastic game, Henry and Messi were outstanding.
This year will be even more exciting, especially if Ronaldo is fit.
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Thanks Mr Minshull, it's good to see the BBC finally offering regular columns in affairs on the continent. As for the topic, I spent last year studying Spain during the 16th and 17th century, and was amazed at the level of enmity which developed between Castile and Catalonia who resented the level of prestige and control enjoyed and exercised by the central province of Spain. The fact that such genuine hatred has been nurtured over hundreds of years explains how emotional the fixture is. Easily the most passionate derby in the world, because it's about so much more than local pride etc. It's almost like an international derby like England-Scotland or Brazil-Uruguay. Barca to win for me; Real can spend however much they like, but there's no one better in their respective positions than Xavi, Iniesta, Messi and Ibrahimovic imo.
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Great blog
That game last year was absolutely fantastic, football of the highest order from Barca i am salivating at the prospect of this weekends game not bothered who wins just hope to see some fantasy football!!!
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How is this a derby? It may be a big rivalry but doesn't fit the usual definition of derby where the teams are in the same city or region.
2/3
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I agree no doubt that this derby is one of the most exciting games to ever grace football. But i think that it is only this year that this derby could be bigger than the rest. Regarding madrids recent spending spree and barcalona's European crown. Cant wait actually!!
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I go to the derbies in my league.. I'm a Celtic fan and of course we have the Old Firm games with Rangers... These are good fun and aren't anywhere near what they used to be but still lively..
This game is another deal altogether.. Ive been to see Celtic play twice at the Nou Camp and was awestruck at the place and fans.. I can only imagine what El Clasico must be like to witness..
Real to pull off a shock result for me.. score draw or Madrid win.
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Ok, Phil - One big inaccuracy. Real Madrid gained the royal title by winning a football trophy and it was awarded by then King Alfonso XIII. Then he left Spain, we turned into a Republic and Franco started the war. As a Real Madrid fan, I despise Franco and all he represented. Every club has rotten apples amng their supporters, we have no choice.
Th dery has been used politically from both sides. Again, as a Madrilenian, I have no political interest in the game. I could not care less if Barcelona fans see it as a way of satisfying their political ambitions.
There is plenty more in Catalonia than FC Barcelona. Other Catalan clubs have however complained of how they take over in the local press and political life. It seems there's nothing more than them. Espanyol (which is the Catalan word for Spanish) in football, Joventut (Catalan for Youth) in basketball and Granollers (this is a city) in handball are fairly big clubs in Spain at thei sports, yet theiy get overshadowed. Ok, the media can favour the club with most supporters, but should the politicans?
I also dislike it deeply when a group with nationalist ambitions say "Madrid do not allow us...". Sorry, I don't buy into that. Madrid is the capital city of Spain and so we have the bad luck of hosting the national goverment, which was voted by all Spaniards. So it's not Madrid, it's also Sevilla, Valencia, Vigo, Zaragoza, and even the Basques and the Catalonians. In other words, I do not enter in this war between Madrid and Catalonia in a political way.
I am fine if Catalonians want their own national side coached by Cruyff, but so they should have their own league. Then w would see how many top players would like to play in a minnows league and how many Catalonians would rather play for Spain given the choice.
Football-wise, it will be an intersting game. The fact that we are 1 point ahead in the table should benefit the team andapproach the game without nerves and thinking a defeat would have taken Barcelona out of sight as last year. I think hat confidence and the return of Ronaldo should give Madrid a draw. I'd enjoy a 2-2 more than a 1-1 but I think that would be the final score.
There is all the league to play for so both teams may not be too unhappy sharing the points. Of course I'd love to see Madrid wining it...
#5 - It is the Spain derby, that is how it fits in the traditional definition. Most of Spain support one of these two clubs as first or second team, so it brings everyone into the game. Sevilla-Betis and Athletic-Real Sociedad have a great feeling of derby too, especially when the other traditional ones (Madrid-Atleti, Espanyol-Barcelona) have a one-sided story.
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Biggest derby in the World? Try going to Boca Vs River. A truly fantastic and frifgtening experience.
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No I wouldnt #11
But then comparing Franco to Hitler , is like comparing the conservative party to the BNP !!
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Is it now? Torture. Bombing their own countrymen? Not sure when the Conservative party did that, and I'm no fan. Let's hope we never give the BNP the power to exercise some of the nastiness they clearly espouse.
You're expressing some very dubious views, pekster11. Stop digging yourself into a hole.
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There's a definite pro-Barcelona, anti-Real Madrid stance in this article, as seems to en vogue at present. Both teams are massive institutions, and both are more than just a club as Barcelona claim. A Catalan friend of mine told me how the 5-0 Real Madrid victory inspired by an Ivan Zamorano hattrick sparked the reinvestment in their youth system and helped them bring about La Masia as it is today. Seems Real have taken a different approach, but they have a good youth system as well that is often disregarded.
To the Madrid fans reading this in Spain, there's a huge bias towards British football in our press. When a team goes out and buys players from our top teams and becomes a threat, they are painted as villains in the media. Unfortunately a great number of people in the UK are all to willing to let someone else form their opinions for them, but rest assured the true football fans here don't feel any ill will.
Here's hoping for a good game of free flowing football, both teams have been stuttering through the last few weeks. In fact on one of these blogs a week or two ago people were saying that Madrid had to win to stay in there, yet in spite of their poor start to the season they are top of the table going into this game. Should be interesting.
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nice article - it was good that you admitted the stuff had been written about plenty before, so there was little stuff that was very common knowledge and a couple of things I'd never heard of before.
One thing though, to quote: "...whether he parted with the almost-obscene amount of money..."
"almost-obscene"? almost?? LOL! it doesn't matter if Ronaldo's worth $80, or kaka £56, it surely is an obscene amount of money. surely?! (and don't call me Shirley)
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Diegodf makes an important point when he says that Real Madrid and Barcelona are most people's first or second team in Spain. The size of these two clubs compared to any other clubs in Spain cannot be overstated, and accordingly their support stretches far, far beyond the borders of their home cities. Most people in Spain tend to support one or the other, and then support their own local team as a 'second' team. To an extent this is understandable when (barring once-in-a-blue-moon exceptions) the league title is an eternal two-horse race, so you are almost forced to choose one team or the other in order to keep your interest in the league title. And of course, as Phil explained very well and very succinctly in his blog, the overarching political context also drew people to support one team or the other depending on their own political outlook.
So if Barça is 'més que un club', then this is definitely more than a derby!
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Dear Phil,
Amazingly, you have neglected to mention the one, over-riding reason why there is so much rivalry, namely that they happen to be easily the best two clubs in Spain. Or can you see Espanyol competing with Barça or Getafe and Atlético (the latter on 7 points so far this season) giving Real a run for their money in the league? It's not about politics, it's about football.
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I'm not quite sure Barca v Real should qualify as a derby. Instead, it has its own name - El Clasico. In any case, the game should be outstanding. It's always a shame in the Premier League when the supposed "big matches" (including any two of the Big Four) turn out to be dissappointing goal-less draws. Living in France, I've also noticed that it's generally the same here too in a rather low scoring league. Of course, an exception to that is the incredible game between Lyon and Marseille a couple of weeks ago that ended with both teams scoring five goals!! Back to Spain, Barca v Real rarely seems to dissapoint and if this is anything like last summer's game, we're in for a treat!
Despite Ronaldo's return, I'd predict a Barca victory but I can't be sure at all.
Following diegodf's comment concerning Franco, I'm afraid to say that he's right Phil. It was Franco, however, that had the Bernabéu stadium built having been a big fan of theirs.
Otherwise, great article and thouroughly enjoyed reading it!
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A decent enough article but please correct the extremely wrong statement quoted: "This century, for instance, in the civil war of the 1930s Catalonia held out longest against General Franco".
Whilst Barcelona may well have suffered after the war was concluded it was Madrid that was the last major city to fall to Franco in the civil war with bombing runs from Toledo finally breaking the back of the fiercest resistance Franco's forces faced.
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Sporting x Benfica this weekend too. Lisbon derby!
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'"The windows of our coach would routinely be smashed by bricks on every trip to Barcelona. That was truly frightening. On the short trip from the hotel to the Nou Camp we'd all cower down on the floor as the driver put his foot down," recalled former Real player Steve McManaman'
So because it's a big game, this sort of behaviour is condoned? If this sort of thing happened ANYWHERE in the UK it would be all over the front pages for days and both clubs would rightly be hammered by the authorities.
Sensationalising the moronic behaviour of a tiny minority of supporters outside the ground does not make the football match a bigger event.
With regard to your observation that the game means more due to the political history attached to the fixture, though the details are unique to this game, political and religious divides are at the crux of other 'real' derby games - (Rangers v Celtic, Boca v River Plate).
Elements of the history of all these clubs can be 'hijacked' by extremists and should be regarded as unwanted 'baggage' by all concerned.
I believe it foolhardy to hype the past instead of celebrating the present footballing talent which will be on show this Sunday night.
I am a Rangers supporter and have witnessed the efforts my club has made to distance themselves from the less auspicious elements of its past yet there is still an undesirable minority who attach themselves to the club for all the wrong reasons.
Whilst stirring up hatered between supporters undoubtedly helps make the tills ring, pandering to the extremists should not be encouraged.
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Rocky... tortue, bombing civilians.... thats what the democratically elected governments of the UK and the USA have done in Iraq already..
back to the football...
I agree with the comment made that being a Barca fan in this country is in vogue... as is slating madrid at every given opportunity.
People forget that until Perez's first stint as madrid presi, Barca were always the wealthier of the two clubs ( including during the Franco years), and would usually spend more money on big name foreign players than madrid (think Cruyft and maradona).
Madrid's team of the mid-late 80s, was based on cantera players.. the famous quinta del buitre era.
I like many madrid supporters would like madrid to start giving cantera players more opportunities in the first team, as madrid's own cantera system (which consistantly produces high quality players) seems to have become a nursery for other la liga clubs ! Mata, Negredo, etc, etc
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Hi Phil,
Finally got round to commenting on your blog, instead of just reading them and then telling you my opinion in a bar over a beer. Couldn't resist this time, given some of the tired old clichés appearing here, as always on any debate re Barça vs Madrid.
Firstly, in Spain the word 'derbi' is used for any match between clubs that are big rivals, not like in UK where it's between 2 clubs from the same city, or sometimes the same region, ie a north east derby between Boro and newcastle, etc. So as historically Barça and Madrid (as they're known as in Spain, not Real, as there are many teams with the title real, not only madrid)are the 2 biggest and most successful clubs who are always fighting for the league, they have an intense rivalry, hence it's a 'derbi' or 'el clasico'. Very similar to Liverpool vs Man Utd, although they are geographically close, unlike madrid and barcelona, but even if they were 400 miles apart they would still be huge rivals as they're the 2 most successful teams in England, so it's the 'El Clasico' of the premier, although we wouldn't call it a derby.
These days for most people it's only that, a football rivalry, not really any longer a political one, except for a minority (or maybe small majority?) of Barça suporting catalans who support independence from spain and see the club as somehow representing this, like their president laporta. But there are also millions of barça fans all over spain, including many in madrid (as there are many madrid fans in catalonia) for whom barça is simply a footie team and they want to beat madrid because it's their main rival and they want to win the league, and if they hate madrid it's only in the same way as liverpool fans (like me!) hate Man U, nothing to do with politics and Franco!
let's please remember too that Franco died 34 years ago and spain is a democracy and so all these clichés about barça being the poor oppressed team representing freedom and democracy and madrid are the nasty fascists trying to repress poor catalans is total rubbish in this day and age. As I said, there are madrid and barça supporters all over spain, most not living in either city and they come from all types of social class and religious and political persuasions. It's nonsense to portray it as a left vs right rivalry, it's just football.
Also, it's a totalmyth that the spanish civil war was fascist madrid/spain under franco fighting against and then oppressing for 40 years catalonia and the basque country, who were the only ones who fought valiently against him. Rubish! It was a civil war that divided families, villages, regions, social classes, etc, in all parts of spain. the republicican government was in madrid and the city was surrounded and bombarded for 3 years by franco's troops with the people reduced to eating rats! The people of madrid, and indeed all of spain, suffered just as much, both during and after the civil war under the dictatorship of franco, as the catalans and basques did. obviously, being a civil war, many people supported franco, but that was true in catalonia and basque country too. So i think it's about time we stopped these tired old cliches about barça being 'more thän a club' fighting franco's real madrid, please. It's simply not true anymore, if indeed it ever really was.
Sorry mate, just had to get that off my chest! Cheers.
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I read today that this game will be on the BBC red button. Is this true?
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... But this is not a "derby". It's a classic, alright, but it has got nothing to do with a "derby". They don't even speak the same language.
The Madrid derby is REAL vs ATLETICO.
Other derbies are Inter vs Milan, Juve vs Torino, Man Utd vs Man City, Roma vs Lazio, Celtic vs Rangers.
I even had my face headbutted and my scarf stolen while fighting for the cause (Inter vs Milan, in my case): these are serious issues, please be precise.
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23#
spot on fella ...
totally agree with your comment !
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25.. they do speak the same language !
ALL catalans can speak castillian !!
plus many barca fans are non catalan spaniards
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N.27
They CAN speak Castillian, but their language is Catalan. I've 5 Catalan friends, they all speak Catalan everyday. That's their language.
I'm writing in English, but this is not my language. Same stuff.
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from Oxford English Dictionary
Derby - Important Sporting Event
Local Derby - Sporting Event between tewo teams from the same area.
QED
Barca v Madrid = Derby, Man U v Liverpool = Derby
Barca v Espanyol = Local Derby, Man U v Man C = Local Derby
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n. 29
So, according to the Oxford English Dictionary the Brazil vs. England game was a Derby, as it was an important sporting event?
Sorry, it doesn't make sense. The Derby HAS to have a geographical proximity, to justify the term. We call Palermo vs Catania "il derby di Sicilia", stressing out that they both come from Sicily.
Problems arise when people try to single out a "derby d'Italia", as it would mean singling out the 2 major teams: people start fighting whether it's Juve-Inter or Milan-Juve. Geography becomes too broad.
And that's exactly the point: you need a geographical proximity or a sum of similarities. There are none between Real and Barcelona.
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You mention the Pigs head thrown at Figo I was in Spain at the time it was far more than that. Knives, golf balls a whiskey bottle and other deadly items were thrown at Figo. I thought something serious would happen to Barcelona but FIFA seemed to accept the Barelona explanation that Figo provoked the missile throwing by taking too long to take the corners. It still mystifies me why it was covered up, image if that had happened in England.
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28#
like most catalans the "language" they speak to eachother in is really a mixture of catalan and castillian ! most dont even realise when they use castillian words, that they arent catalan words! LOL
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#30
I don't think many people will say that the latest Brazil v England was an important sporting event.
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The great irony about Barcelona FC and their apparent anti-Spanish sentiments is that they are perfectly happy to play in La Liga which is of course the Spanish league. "We are not Spanish, we are Catalans" they claim but they don't play against other Catalonian clubs every week. They need the other Spanish clubs far more than they need Barcelona.
I think basically Barça has a huge chip on its shoulder because Real Madrid have clearly been far more successful.
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Pekster11, Franco was an evil dictator and your attempts to re-write history and paint him as some sort of jolly old bluffer who could have been in the Tory Party are highly insulting and totally inaccurate. Be a fan of Franco if you want, but if you do not understand why he is routinely placed in the company of Hitler and Stalin rather than the Tory party then you truly need to have another look at your history book.
Many leaders have ordered terrible things to be done in times of international war, but the dictators like Stalin, Franco and Hitler operated on a much higher and more sinister level on the scale of evil than the Tory Party ever have, and I find it morally reprehensible for you to try and defend Franco just to try and win a argument about football.
You and similar Madrid fans are the reason there is an anti-Madrid current in the UK; we are a liberal country well-versed in history, and quite frankly your denial of the evil of Franco flies in the face of accepted history and contemporary morality. If a Madrid fan says "I do not care about Franco" then fair enough, but to say "Franco was not a bad guy" and then wonder why people do not like Madrid is just plain stupid.
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#23.... Phil thats your pal who has a beer with you..!!.. I wouldn't like to see your enemies..!
I do however agree with all the statements about the violence associated with this and it does seem to be glorified a bit.. which isn't fair as other teams get hounded for a small minority of their support.. i.e most recently Rangers.. (and Im a Celtic fan) There is a romantic side associated with this game and things get overlooked.
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To number 8... great piece of reading. That pretty much sums it up and like another poster accurately said, there's a bit of Pro Barca feeling thrown out in this article, but I guess the cool thing nowadays is to hate or dislike everything about Real Madrid or their fans.
One more thing, this is NOT a derby. The definition of a derby is the same in every country of the world, which is a clash between teams from the same city. This match has always been known as El Clasico, I still fail to understand how people still call it a derby when it clearly isn't. It is the biggest rivalry of them all, no doubt about it.
Lastly, Phil has it right when it comes to atmospheres, I've read and heard a lot of world class players feeling frightened when they have walked on the pitch at the Camp Nou... I'm still feeling confident about our side and we can probably scape with a win on sunday... CR9 to score the winner!
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the world stops to watch when barcelona and real madrid meet
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I see many points I wanted to bring up have already been mentioned...
#34- You make a very interesting point, especially considering how many of the other Catalan and Basque clubs make the same claims but field wholly Catalan players (Bilbao, and until a while back Sociedad as examples). I think Alonso moving to Madrid could signify this, considering his Basque origins and father's reputation.
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Totally agreed with 19. Everybody in Spain know the biggest resistence took place in Madrid, not Barcelona. Madrid was the last major city to fall to Franco in the civil war and the very well known and very usedin these days sentence "No pasaran" (they will not pass throough) has its origins in those Madrilenian that faced the last battle in the civil war and saw the begining of the dictatorship. The civil war was not an independentist war between Catalonia and Castile, but a civil war between brothers, families and neighbours. Madrid suffered it as much as Barcelona if not more, even if it is true that Barcelona suffered the dictatorship in a much more outrageous and sad way.
You cant mixed civil war offences (from everyone to everyone) with a dictatorship and who sufferd the dictatorship.
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Ah, El Clasico is back - as a reminder to us all of 2 great footballing teams hijacked by misguided nationalism, arrogance, petulance and ignorance on both counts.
As Charles de Gaulle (who wasn't shy of controversy himself) put it:
"Patiotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism is when the hate for people other than your own comes first"
This seems to be what Catalans advocate - and so be it.
Spanish Pride is a terrible affliction placed upon this beautiful country with its incredible people...The Basques,the Catalans,the Galicians,the Andalucians etc. so, have your independence from Spain and let La Liga take care of itself ...Then where would Barcelona and Nou Camp be in their newly formed country and league?
Apart from Espanyol, what other teams of note exist in the region? It'll be far worse than the Scottish system with Barcelona left to dwell in their own footballing exile - the club will implode for lack of any form of stimulation or competition, left to play Espanyol at least 10 times per season to justify a league table of sorts...Barca fans will want to break from Espanyol because of its pro Spanish-sounding name..
These games will be known as El Stupido - and no-one will bother turning up..the Catalans will get so bored with it all that they might re-introduce bull-fighting again...
and as for Madrid - Player and President power has made a mockery of managing the team...not since Vicente Del Bosque has there been any form of continuity with team and manager..Baptista's goal in the Madrid win at the Nou Camp was the beginning of a Schuster team heading towards a restoration of Madrid glory, only for it to be torn down because Bernd had the guts to question his team's chances against a resurgent Barca in the same fixture the following season.
El Clasico has proved the death knell for many a madrid manager and could well prove a nail in the coffin for Pellegrini - heavily criticized by his tactics with a star studded team, anything else than a win and I would bet everything he'll be gone the next day...Real's philosophy has always been that when in doubt throw all the money you can at it until you get it right...comparable to Chelsea and now with Manchester City, it's vulgar and it's no way to run a club...(the difference, of course, is Madrid will always be propped up by Spanish government, whilst teams in the premiership can just collapse if their rich benefactors get bored and pull the plug...)
So, I really want Real to win, but Barca have such harmony in midfield, they'll control it. 3-1 to Barca with Pellegrini gone.
Guus Hiddink anyone?He's already been sacked there before, so he can quite happily get sacked again...;-)
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35# somewhat over the top to be honest ! lol
Where did I say in my post Franco was not a bad guy ????
Where did I say he could have been in the conservative party ???
ans: nowhere !
point I was (rightly) making was that you cannot compare Franco with Hitler ( he who invaded half of europe, and was part of the murder of millions of people )...
please read posts properly next time ! And dont go so far over the top when people dont share the same "liberal" views as yourself..That kind of over the top reaction is in itself a form of fascism.. or do you not realise that sir ??
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Sound and interesting piece Phil.
You may want to check Simon Kuper's assertion that Catalonia held out longest against General Franco in the civil war. Got a feeling Valencia was the last city in Spain to fall to the fascists.
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also 35# if your history knowledge is good, you will know that if Franco had lost the civil war, the "republicans" (made up largely of anarchists and marxists) would probably have led to Spian becoming the first communist western european country.
The allied powers such as the UK were well aware of this, and is probably the reason why they didnot offer next to know real support to the republicans..
would spain have been better off with 40 years of communism ???
I think not..
you sir and your arguments are dismissed ! lol
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I was living in Catalonia when the pig's head incident took place, but I didn't move there until September 2002, so I'm afraid you must have got the date wrong. It can't have been 2001. It was definitely in the 2002/2003 season.
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#41: I agree with you in a sense about the nationalisn/patriotism issue, but I think Barca have a genuine reason for it, and if you grow up in that kind of environment, it's unlikely you would see it as ignorant or petulant. Regrettable certainly, but not ignorant.
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It's not a derby, it's never called a derby in Spain, its El Classico, the classic, the rivalry.
Amilan vs. Inter may be the top italian rivalry right now but while Inter were in mid table doldrums in the 90's it was Milan v Juve, if Holland it was Amsterdan vs. PSV, in Germany Munich vs. Dortmund, in Portugal Porto vs. Benfica and in England Man Utd vs. Liverpool. It's simply a clash of the two biggest and most successful clubs, the only difference is that they are so much bigger and more dominant in Spain for so much longer than anywhere else.
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Why support Barca? Look at their "sponsors": no capitalist self-interest entity. The team had foregone big bucks...er, Euros...to promote global good.
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The game is such a huge fixture for Barca which is demonstrated by being one of the only games when the fans actually make any noise! It must be said though, in other games the sound of 98,000 people politely clapping a goal is still quite surreal.
Living in Catalunya for almost 10 years now its safe for me to say that everything from the financial crisis to lack of rain gets blamed on Madrid and this game is definitely seen as a moment to get even. The reasons for this do indeed take root from harsh historical oppression of the Catalans by the powers that be in Madrid and Franco's support for Madrid could only galvanize the opportunity for turning the fixture into a big grudge match - logically the bigger grudge coming from the Catalan side of the fence. After all Madrid has nothing to get even over with the Catalans.
Like too many sporting events the nationalist platform can try to take over and hijack things. In this case there is rivalry, there is history and there is national pride however this can be blown out of proportion off the pitch. Let it be remembered that half the Barca squad proudly lifted the European Cup a few years ago and good ole Pep donned the red shirt of Spain too.
Luckily Spain and Catalunya have real problems with football violence so where as battalions of Geordies may fight each other in North East derbies, Old Firm derbies end up with fatalities and Turkish derbies end up on a kebab skewer, El Classico maintains the banter, the passion and the politics but its fans keep it all in perspective.
Great passionate football is always good to watch and that's guaranteed this Sunday.
Visca Barca!
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#45 - you're right, the derby of shame/ derbi de la vergüenza (as it was called in spain #47) with the pig's head etc. was in November 2002, 2 years after Figo moved to Madrid.
#27 - not ALL catalans speak castellano. in barcelona itself perhaps but there are parts of catalonia where it isn't spoke, in the same way that there are parts of wales where only welsh is spoken and english simply isn't. a catalan friend had to learn castellano when he went to university and only properly learnt it when he went on an exchange program to italy, where there were other spaniards.
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"....to prove it they have fought wars and made revolts against Madrid. Until recently, they always lost. This century, for instance, in the civil war of the 1930s Catalonia held out longest against General Franco". It is a shame that Mr. Minshull - a resident of Spain for some years - should, through the BBC, be pedalling such inaccuracies. Barcelona was captured 26th January 1939. Madrid (which had been under siege for 3 years, far more than Barcelona) was entered by the Nationalists on the 27th March 1939. Only Valencia on the mainland held out longer. I suggest that Mr Minshull reads Anthony Beaver's excellent account of the Spanish Civil War. Franco was initially an "Athletico Madrid Man" since it was the Air Force team. However, in the aftermath of the Civil War - when it became clear that the dominant teams would be Real in the capital, and Barca, he openly switched allegiances. I look forward to reading further articles by Mr Minshull with the mendacity (whether intentional or through ignorance) greatly reduced.
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I still don't understand why people want to call it a "derby" now. I never herd it being called a derby before and I live in Barcelona. It has always been "el clasico". I guess they want anglonize everything now.
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REF 41
Maybe ignorance is a little harsh, though if I were to be brought up disliking the Germans because of a War that happened over 60 years ago with no direct link to my immediate family to prove a certain allegiance to this country, then where do you stop the trend of irrational and misguided nationalism and patriotism? - arrogance and obstinance are certainly bedfellows to Pride...I'm a Galician in exile having to deal with the la la's involving Deportivo and Celta....so I've decided to support a little team in the region called Arosa.
It was put on the map very briefly when John Toshack's Real Sociedad went there for a cup game and struggled to win it 1-0...this little team, known ironically as "Los Ingleses", will be precisely the equivalent teams Barca will have to face in a Catalan league were they to succeed on this folly of full independence...you're right, the whole thing is regrettable and sad...and I very much hoped Spain winning the Euros in 2006 could in some way amalgamate a whole nation - for I'm sure Spain has under-achieved in the past precisely because of regional nationalism and pro-identity...
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First, to those stating that this fixture is just about football; ease off the writer, he's just explaining the context of the game to those of us who were not familiar with the history behind the clubs. That history may no longer have any relevance to the majority of the fans, but it is interesting to note that the fierce rivalry may be explained by more than just their respective successes. The rivalry has clearly been passed down through generations, even if the ideoligies behind it haven't.
Secondly, there are a number of theories about the origins of a "derby" and what should be considered a derby or not. I would simiply add that the phrase "local derby" might suggest that a non-local derby can exist.
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Why are some trying to turn a debate about a football into a debate about Franco. Nobody can hardly remember him so its all about what you read and as this debate is showing that can vary from whom is writing the history. I doubt if few historians write something without having an axe to grind otherwise it would not interest them..
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Wow....a fascinating rivalry has thrown up a fascinating discussion. It's been fun(not to mention enlightening) to read all the comments above. I knew vague details of the whole Catalan/Castille idea before although I'm just about to start reading "Barca" as I head out from my home in New York to Barcelona today! I'll be in the city for 'El Clasico'...Not one of the fortunate 'few' 98,000 able to acquire a ticket(yet) but it'll certainly be the main focus of all discussion all week!
I cannot wait.....I'm salivating at the prospect of this match. Barcelona for me(sorry to appear pro-Barcelona again) but in an age in which so many clubs sell out at every given opportunity(St James Park??),it's refreshing to know that Barca are willing to forgo even the now customary shirt sponsorship in order to promote charity.
Such ingredients as the deserved Champions League victory and the tasteless overspending during a time of recession have added even more 'spice' to what will no doubt be mouthwatering....
Now Phil,if you happen to have a spare seat in your press box with you.........
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Now, the whole 'derby' malarkey. Back in the day, The Derby* (as in the horse race held at Epsom) was the biggest sporting event in Britain and everyone in the country would stop what they were doing to try and follow it. As such, 'derby' became a byword for a sporting event of huge importance.
As time wore on and football became bigger, games between local rivalries assumed a similar level of importance and also became know as 'derbies'
So, Barcelona vs Real Madrid can surely legitimately be classed as a derby.
Anyway, Barcelona 2-0.
*The Derby itself would have been known as The Bunbury had Lord Bunbury called correctly in a coin toss with Lord Derby.
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Can't wait for the Liverpool Lyon derby later on tonight...
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Not sure about which derby match generates the best atmosphere but there´s no doubt that each and every one is special, including this one. Unfortunately the buzz at any other match in these mega stadiums is of a very different kind and is usually created by the groans and yawning from certain sections of the crowd. I remember being at the Gamper (Barca v Tenerife) pre season tournament many years ago, 70,000 plus crowd and from the very top of the stand (under the scoreboard)you could clearly hear the players calling for the ball. The biggest noise was when they booed Laudrup. The Bernabeu is much better for atmosphere in general in my opinion.
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Spoken like a true Englishman Phil ! To talk about big derbies and fail to mention Celtic against Rangers.
You might as well stick in Bristo Rovers vs Bristol City !
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Sorry, but how can 2 clubs situated over 300 miles apart be a Derby? Utter twaddle!!!
Derbies are played between two clubs situated very close together, the intensity of the rivalry is irrelevant.
I am looking forward to the game though, Barca are a fantastic side oozing with ability whereas Real are trying to buy success, as an Arsenal fan I will have to go with talent over money...
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if you had to combine both teams who would make the first 11. for me it would be 4-3-3.
Casillas
alves puyol pique abidal
alonso
xavi iniesta
ronaldo messi
benzema
yes not even kaka can get in this team...
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#57 - My understanding of the origin of the phrase "derby" to describe a sporting occasion between 2 teams from the same city/region has nothing to do with the horse race
The explanation I have always heard is that it relates to the ancient game of "old" football that is still played on one of the Easter bank holidays somewhere near Derby between the "north" & "south" (or east & west - I forget which). Hence why its the accepted term (primarily) for a contest between 2 teams from the same area
I first heard that explanation on Blue Peter when I was young in the early 80's. Simon Groom took part in it (I think he was from Derby) & Blue Peter covered it.
If it was on Blue Peter it must be true!!!!!!!
#44 - I can't comment on your original post regarding Franco coz its been removed but your comment in #44 is misleading. The Allied Powers did not restrain from intervening primarily for fear of a victory leading to a communist spain. I've no doubt it was in the back of their minds but primarily they didn't intervene as a) in a time of appeasement amongst the public it would have been very unpopular & b) as soon as Germany & Italy sent troops to help Franco the conflict would have had the very real possibility of developing into the second world war which would have been even more unpopular
Secondly, the "Republican's" were not "made up largely of Anarchists & Communists" - If my memory of my dissertation some 13 years ago is correct, the Republic was a democratically elected left of centre coalition that the far right & many in the military high brass sought to depose through a military coup. The communists & anarchist militia's were formed following the military uprising & played a part in trying to defend the Republic but were not the majority part as you insinuate either militarily or politically.
The communists only began to gain more influence later on as the republican govt was left with little option but to turn to the Soviet Union for help as no other country would. It was the terms of this help from Stalin that led to more communist influence but also led to a great deal of fractions in the Republican movement (there was a brief civil war within a civil war in Barcelona) and contributed IMO greatly to its downfall rather than contribute towards any possibility of its success
You post in #44 also completely overlooks the fact that had Franco not tried to overthrow a democratically elected goverment there would have been no civil war, no horrific loss of life & no suffering in the 39 years of his dictatorship
Would Spain & its people have been better off with 40 years of dictatorship than 40 years of democracy. I think not but no doubt others may have differnt views
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All this arguing over whether Madrid-Barça is a derby is rather amusing. Typically you will see that Madrid-Barça referred to as El Clásico. Where as Madrid-Atlético is called the derbi madrileño.
Either way, it's a shame that Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi, and Zlatan are all struggling with injuries. The good thing about this match as opposed to other high profile matches around the world is that usually both teams go for it. It is very rare for either team to sit back. Hopefully it is a great spectacle and a win for Real Madrid.
Cheers.
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Higuain is underrated, would like to see chelsea go in for him. real don't feel like they need him after signing all those players in the summer. would be good in january to compensate for kalou and drogba loss but obviously in the future too. his style would deffo suit the prem.
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Fantastic article but I still don´t think it covers exactly how important the game is to everyone over here. As a temporary expat (I´m living in Barcelona for a year) you can feel the buzz already of the upcoming El Clasico never mind there´s the small matter of a champions league game against Inter tonight (which Barca must win or face going out) it's all about El Clasico.
I'm not going to comment too much on the politics as I don't know enough and it's almost impossible to compare to any other situation in the world. What I will say is that this is Catalunya and not Spain as far as the large majority of locals are concerned. Not a derby you say? Fancy saying that to the 98,000 roaring fans on sunday? Perhaps not a derby in the traditional sense but it's a derby of the 2 regions of Castile and Catalunya. Catalan is not a dialect of spanish but a language of it's own that is in fact closer to french. I'm fortunate enough to live within a 10 minute walk from the Camp Nou (note: NOT the "Nou Camp") so will be heading to a bar near the stadium to catch a glimpse of the atmosphere. I've been to Barca's home champions league games and will be going tonight as well and to say the atmosphere is intimidating would be a very large understatement. The stadium is HUGE and not even Wembley can compare to it.
On a personal level I'll be supporting Barca tonight as I obviously I have a slight affinity with the city and as a season ticket holder at Arsenal my love of Thierry Henry is undying (whatever people may think of him now). This is definitely going to be big even for El Clasico with the european champions vs. El Galacticos Mk. II. I can't wait.
Visca El Barca (i Thierry)
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Franco didn't come to power over Spain in 1936. A small skirmish called the Spanish Civil War was fought, with the elected government finally toppled by Francoist forces in 1939. Have you really been here 12 years?
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As a United fan I do have genuine (in footballing terms of course) reason to wish both a 4-4 draw with a couple of long term injuries and player suspensions then ironclad evidence of Italian like match fixing which sees both sides in Segunda B..sigh!.. Day dream over, everything above minus the injuries
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FAO messien
Pretty much agree with your post apart from Kaka not being included would swap Ronaldo for Benzema then include Kaka where Ronaldo currently is (if that makes sense!!!!)
In other words drop Benzema put Ronaldo up front and have Kaka alongside Messi!! phew!!!
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1) "I can testify that there is nothing at any other ground in the world that I've been to which can equal the cauldron of noise from the 98,000 Barca fans". Nonsense. Even against Real Madrid the atmosphere at the Camp Nou is lukewarm/tepid at best, mainly suit-wearing late middle aged men in grumbling away. And since Laporta ousted the Boixos Nois, it has become so tame it's a joke that the media still try to hype up the 'cauldron of noise' cliche.
2) Also, for those of you harping on about the term 'clásico', it isn't really the name of the FCB-RM game at all, it's a term used in South American football to refer to big games, and was only adopted by the Spanish media in the last decade or so. 'Derby' is of course a game between to geographically close teams, but it is one of many English words that have been adopted but given a slightly different meaning (for example, they also use the archaic term 'goal average' for 'goal diference', which is not actually the same thing at all).
3) Also, one angle often missed, is exactly WHY the only place the Catalan language and symbols could be used was the Camp Nou. Because Franco was a wily old fox. He knew that as long as the Catalans antipathy towards the rest of the state was contained in the context of football, then little real trouble would ever come of it. Basically, rather than terrorism or suchlike, the physical expression of Catalan nationalism has almost entirely been limited to believing that their football team is better, and the Catalans were suckered right into the trap.
There is very little hard evidence that Franco ever took much interest in either football or Real Madrid, and his association with the great Madrid side of the 1950s/60s was almost entirely about him jumping on the football bandwagon than vice versa.
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Phil - how many times have Real actually won in the Camp Nou in the last twenty years? Am I not correct in thinking they've only won a couple of times since 1980?
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You can't translate the Spanish 'derbi' into English as 'derby'! Real-Barca is NOT a derby for us English speakers!
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A couple of comments on the comments:
"Catalan is not a dialect of spanish but a language of it's own that is in fact closer to french."
As a speaker of all three languages, I'd like to point out that the second part of what you say is not true. Catalan is language, not a dialect of Spanish, but it is closer to Spanish than it is to French, though it is closer still to Occitan (Provençal).
One comment refers to the "folly of full independence". This is nonsense. If places like Slovakia, Ukraine, Croatia, etc. manage as independent countries there's no reason why Catalonia shouldn't. If history had taken a different course, then maybe now Catalonia would be independent and Portugal would be an Autonomous Community of Spain. It is true that a Catalan league (though leagues don't necessarily have to be based on national borders) would be much weaker than a Spanish league, but that is hardly a good reason to rule out independence. Football is not the be all and end all, and I'm sure many Catalans and people living in Catalonia, including myself, would be quite happy to sacrifice a world-class football league for many of the benefits that independence would bring (a stronger voice internationally, a brighter future for the Catalan language, less money distributed to other regions of Spain, a railway system run by the competent FGC rather than the incompetent RENFE, etc.).
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Some commentators in Spain may refer to the game as a "derby" but it is generally known as the "clàsico", the game everyone looks forward to, and feelings can run very high.
I was living in Barcelona when Franco died and there was jubilation. He was roundly hated for what he tried to do to the Catalan language and culture in general. So I assure you that there is still some political content in the rivalry. If Catalan still has a lot of Castillian words mixed in with it, it is because it was forbidden to speak Catalan in public or to teach it for forty years or so. Hardly anyone I knew then could write it correctly. But that has all changed.
One of the most telling comments is about the Madrid "cantera", the flow of players from the youth teams that was its great pride not so long ago. Right now it is of little significance, whereas Barcelona's has been producing some very fine players.
One of the reasons why Barcelona is in fashion may be its identification with the successful national team: some of Spain's best players are at Barcelona - in fact they are its backbone - but only Casillas is at Madrid.
Roll on Sunday!
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#71
you are not quite right there. real madrid have won 3 since 1980's but I see the point you are trying to make.
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#73, a good point, football isn't that important ultimately, but are the posters above correct in saying that FCB was and is an outlet for the nationality of Catalans? If that is the case then separation would basically spell the end of that team, no longer in a top league, how many players will want to stay there?
Is independence a realistic future? I still find it strange that people would blame others who clearly weren't involved for oppression that occurred decades ago? Can't everyone just get along and play nice?
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17. At 10:54am on 24 Nov 2009, Headinoven wrote:
It's not about politics, it's about football.
Thanks for further attempts to dumb down our understanding of rivalries.
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"The Catalans feel Catalan first and Spanish second, and to prove it they have fought wars and made revolts against Madrid. Until recently, they always lost. This century, for instance, in the civil war of the 1930s Catalonia held out longest against General Franco, but then suffered under his yoke until he died in 1975," commented Simon Kuper in his award-winning Football Against The Enemy.
Surely somebody who works for the BBC should know that the 1930s were in the last century not this century
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The seville betis games are quite exciting also.
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Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to respond, whether you agree with what I wrote or not.
OK first things first, quite a few of you disputed my use of the word 'derby' in the context of this match.
This is what my Concise Oxford Dictionary says...
Derby – 1. annual horse race at Epsom (~ Day) that of the race; similar race elsewhere. 2. any important sporting contest; local ~ between two teams from the same district.
Therefore, it's a derby in my book. Thank you to 1973Legend and James Welham for being quicker off their marks than me and pointing this out before I did.
Regardless of the distance between Barcelona and Madrid, this game is still a derby.
Hackerjack and thehonorarytitle: You are right in one respect, El Clasico is the much more commonly used name to describe the match in Spain. However, El Derbi or El Derbi Español (occasionally the anglicised 'derby' is also used) are also used regularly.
As I write this, I'm looking at some Spanish newspaper clippings from the 1980s, which describe the match in such a fashion and you only need to put 'Barcelona' and/or 'Real Madrid' and 'derbi' into Google to get plenty of results.
Timothy Barton and Marcus Nyman: Yes, you are right, the 'Pig's Head incident took place in November 2002. My mistake, sorry.
Mike T: “I still don´t think it covers exactly how important the game is to everyone over here.” You are right as well, but for a different reason, as 900 words isn't anything like enough space to convey the true importance of the game, the background and emotions stirred. Entire books here in Spain have struggled to encompass the whole gamut of issues surrounding the game.
Piorek: “Spoken like a true Englishman Phil ! To talk about big derbies and fail to mention Celtic against Rangers.” Er, it's a European football blog, that's why I didn't also mention Man Utd v Liverpool either. I used some quotes from Gary Linekar but he didn't ever play in the Old Firm game. To be fair, Andy Mitten rates Celtic v Rangers as the top derby in the world, just edging out El Clasico, but I don't agree with him, primarily because I think Barca v Real Madrid nowadays has much more global significance.
There were also some comments over the content of my blog that refers to Spain's political history.
Mike Dunn wrote: “Whilst Barcelona may well have suffered after the war was concluded it was Madrid that was the last major city to fall to Franco in the civil war.”
TheVeritas wrote: “Barcelona was captured 26th January 1939. Madrid (which had been under siege for 3 years, far more than Barcelona) was entered by the Nationalists on the 27th March 1939. Only Valencia on the mainland held out longer.”
I think it's important to point out that Simon Kuper, whose quote I used, was clearly referring to Catalonia as a region and not specifically the city of Barcelona and although he didn't define his terminology as precisely as many (including me) would like, I think its an acceptable statement in the broadest sense and also conveys well some of the background to the match.
Nevertheless, both of you raise important points. Having spent an hour or so thumbing through books today, it's equally clear that some historians take the view that although Madrid was formally entered by the Nationalist troops on the 27th March, the fact that there was a significant Nationalist presence in the city throughout the civil war makes the use of this exact date as 'the day the Nationalists conquered Madrid' a bit questionable. Certainly, Valencia was the last actual major city to fall to the Nationalists, but much of the Valencia region around the city had been under Nationalist control for some time.
Debatable wrote: “Franco didn't come to power over Spain in 1936.” Oh, yes he did. On 1 October 1936, in Burgos, Franco was publicly proclaimed as Generalisimo or Jefe del Estado (Head of State). Yes, of course, the civil war still continued for another two-and-a-half years but technically, or otherwise, he was the man in power.
I haven't covered many points regarding the actual match itself but I hope it's a great game on Sunday. It often has been in recent years and I have particularly memories of the 3-3 draw in March 2007 when Messi got a hat trick and Van Nistelrooy scored a couple for Real in the Camp Nou.
Next week, it's going to be back to a more directly football-focussed blog. I'm not going to tell you exactly what I've got planned but it will definately have something to do with the World Cup draw on December 4.
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PS In response to #78 Fairground11, I know what you mean but Simon Kuper's book Football Against The Enemy was published in 1994 (and won that year's William Hill Sports Book of the Year Award) and I prefer to keep other people's quotes intact.
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my apologies i did not notice that you were quoting from a book
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Phil said 'Er, it's a European football blog .. ' So when did Britain get kicked out of Europe Phil ?
You of course coincidentally used the Garry Lineker quote.
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Having known all that rich history, I now understand why one of my spainish friend always said he was a Catalan and I don't even feel like a proper barca fan, though I have a barca shirt. The rivalry motivates them to out do each other in every way. It is just a pleasure for everyone to watch the game.
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Hope Barça hammer them once again!! And independence for Catalonia takes one more, peaceful, step forward with the local referendums (not legally-binding) coming up in December in many Catalan towns.
Most Catalans do not feel themselves to be Catalan first, and Spanish second, rather simply "Catalan".
This years derby is going to be better than ever as Madrid have done everything in their power (i.e. spend what they haven't got) to match Barça's progress. My tip, Barça 3 Madrid 0, and Barça to win the CHampions' League in the Madrid stadium in May 2010!!
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excellent. set me up nicely for the weekend. barca are my spanish team so will go for them!!
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The Spanish word CLASICO is used to represent 2 traditional rivals playing each other irrespective of where they are from. For some reason, this is always translated as DERBY in English. Is there no English word for it? What would you call a game between Man u and Arsenal/Chealsea for example?
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In answer to the poster who said that with friends like me poor phil doesn't need enemies, I must point out, if it wasn't clear (which I thought it was) that I wasn't criticising his blog, only some of the idiotic comments I was reading. Sorry Phil if you took it that way too. I should have made it clearer. great blog, just a pity about some of the posters who seem intent on always turning debates about barça and madrid into political rants about franco and spanish oppression, etc. get a life!
BTW why do people insist on saying that cataluña suffered under franco's dictatorship? What? Like the rest of spain didn't! Everyone suffered a total lack of democracy and basic freedoms in spain, including madrid, during his regime. And hundreds of thousands of people who supported the republic in any shape or form, or were simply suspected of it or just had any left wing or anti-clerical sympathies were either shot, tortured or imprisoned without trial, all over spain, not just in cataluña.
obviously some people benefited and got rich during the regime, including many industrialists, bankers, businessmen and middle class sympathizers in cataluña (and obviously madrid and the rest of spain too) many of whom were connected with Barcelona FC, who did very nicely out of franco's regime, thank you very much. In fact, laporta's brother in law was a member of the francisco franco federation until recently, an organization dedicated to maintaing his memory and legacy in spain!
And as for madrid being franco's team, well he had no interest in football itself, he just wanted to be popular at home with the masses and to gain prestige abroad, in a period when spain was isolated internationally. As madrid were the most popular, successful and internatioanlly well known team in spain, due to their success in europe, obviously he wanted to be associated with that success and popularity so he could use it for propoganda purposes, just like all dictators do - look at argentina and the 1978 world cup. if people are happy because their team is winning it keeps their minds of politics. franco may have been an evil bast**d but he wasn't stupid.
If barça had won 5 european cups in a row he would have suported them! it's not madrid's fault. And anyway, franco died 34 years ago, what the hell's it got to do with anything now? most of the players in madrid probably don't even know who he is!
Wow, 2 rants in one day! I really must go and lie down.
PS despite all this defending madrid, I support atletico and I hate madrid (but simply because they're madrid, nothing to do with politics and franco!)hope they lose 6-2 again on sunday! AUPA ATLETI!!!!!
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samdennis333 - you say this game doesn't qualify as a derby? The definition of a derby is:
'any notable endeavor or venture regarded as a competition'
I think it counts!
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I agree about the date. 2002-3 was the first season we watched La Liga (been hooked ever since) so the pigs head incident occurred in the very first Clasico we ever watched.
It's Barca all the way in this house. It's the way this household is united in football as I am a PNE fan and my husband is from Blackpool!
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88, you're saying, like, Franco played no part in Madrid's 5 European Cups? Sure, for example, he didn't give them a helping hand "persuading" Di Stefano to go to Madrid when he'd already decided to sign for Barcelona ...?
Maybe for Madrid fans it's just an intense sporting rivallry, but for most Catalan Barça fans it's much more than that. Of course people suffered all over Spain both during and after the civil war, but that has no effect on the fact that Barça is a symbol of Catalunya, and its (hopefully upcoming) independence from Spain:)
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Phil (#80),
Thanks for responding, but Franco was not in control of the country when he was proclaimed so in October 1936. That's why it happened in Burgos.
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Hi all,
Im spaniard from Barcelona, and I would like to answer some things i have been reading. (I apologize about my english and im sure Ill make plenty of mistakes and use a poor vocabuolary :P)
Firs of all, We DO use derby as a word to describe el clásico, and for us make a lot of sense to use this word. A derby in my point of view, is an important sport event as the oxford dictionary says, but with a history, years and years that this event have been happening and every year is bigger and more important. This is a derby for me, and probabbly for the other people from my country. If Barcelona and Chelsea continues to face in champions league so many more years, and with both teams keeping a high level, im sure soon we will be able to call this match as a "derby"
Of course Catalan people as me, speaks catalan, and of course we speak spanish as well (castellano), we do speak both language perfectly. Not all of us, that depends of the family. Some people prefers to speak only in spanish, some other people in catalan, and some other both, depending with who there are speaking to. And having and advanced level of both lenguage, and speaking them every day can make, that sometimes you mix the lenguage. It is completely normal.
I have to say also, not all the catalan people is nationalist, probably it is around 50% or even less. But people from cataluña who arent nationalist normally dont say anything, to avoid critics. So that changes the real perspective of the public opinion.
I think thats all what i wanted to precise. The article is really nice, and I hope Barça wins :)
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When working abroad I would often have time to kill at especially at weekends so I would watch the local football team. In Spain that happened to be Real Madrid up till then I had found Madrid a bit of an unfriendly with aggressive motorist and taxi drivers who were rude about my lack of Spanish vocabulary.
But my experience in the Bernebau warmed me to Madrid the tickets were reasonably priced and supporters were incredibly friendly the standard of the football was awesome with Zidane, Figo, Carlos, Raul, Makelee, Salgado and Guti I saw football played with extraordinary flair and without any concern about stopping the opposition playing. The other incredible thing was the fans they applauded the opposition and ex-players (even when Morientess knocked them out of Europe for Monaco) I had become so use to hearing nothing but moronic booing at other grounds. The only time Madrid fans turned on me was early on in 2002 when I Chuckled at Mc Manaman running up and down the touch line it looked a bit unlikely the fans would have the same regard for him as the likes of Zedan and Figo their but I soon found out they loved him. It all seemed to go a bit sour after Del Bosque left but I don’t think enough credit goes to the team that Barcelona put together for ending Real’s dominance s (although Valencia won LaLiga the first season I was there, Real were to become European and World club champions) most seem to blame it on selling Makelelee but Cambiasso should have been an adequate replacement for that role had he got more of a chance.
As for Franco the opiniion was he just aligned himself to Real Madrid to gain popularity in same way that Harold Wilson would like to be seen with the Beatles. Anything else is just anti Madrid propaganda but in the same way that some Sun readers like to believe Princess Dianne was murdered by Prince Philip there will always some people are willing to believe sensationalistic drivel especially if it suites them.
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#79 - too right re Betis vs Sevilla. As a Betis fan I would love to go to one of those games; alas the way things are going for Betis at the moment, it could be a while...
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Fortunately, Generalisimo Francisco Franco is still dead.
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REF 73
Your name has very little to do with Catalan. I cannot see how a British ex-pat can speak up for the whole of the region...maybe you can get other British ex-pats down in Torremolinos and Marbella to speak up for Andalucian Independence - a call to arms to bring back the Moors to fight against Madrilistan repression and help rebuild Cordoba and Sevilla to its former glory perhaps...Break the Union of Castilla-Leon and Aragon once and for all.
Maybe with Independence Barcelona FC could be like a footballing Harlem Globetrotters and elect a league around the world to play in per season - I suggest the Scottish League for starters, with MacClassics established with Celtic and Rangers, and while they're at it, have Alex Salmond on board to further whoop up the need for Scottish Nationalism and Independence from a repressive Westminster regime..
With Independence there will no longer be the necessity for a footballing Citadel to prove its people's identity...so it's goodnight Barcelona FC and no more El Clasico's in the future...what utter folly...
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This comment is for everyone who is talking about Franco..
correct me if im wrong, but i dont think spain has ever been a republic.. :S
during and after the civil war it was a dictatorship, as Franco and only Franco controlled all of the powers and laws in spain.
When he died and Juan Carlos I took over, the constitution of 1978 was created, transforming spain into a monarch democracy.
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99 - Before the civil war, Spain was a republic.
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100-Thanks, i thought that alfonso XII's reign lasted untill just before the civil war, but just fond out that it only lasted untill 1931:)
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I would have to say there is an even BIGGER World Football clasico than FCB & RM, & I say this even though I am from Spain.
The Argentina League game BOCA JUNIORS vs RIVER PLATE
Best
http://spanishfootballsports.blogspot
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Great stuff Phil, Barcelona is vibrant today after last night's win over Inter. As a resident here for 13 years it's inevitable to get caught up in the "anti-madridista" fever, and from 6pm Sunday it will be difficult to get to watch the game in a bar, never mind get a ticket for the game. A couple of extra details to help Brit fans understand the intensity of the Barcelonistas' antagonism:
1: Historic: I understand that in 53/54 Alfredo di Stefano was actually discovered and brought to Spain from Argentina by Barça. While Barça were still waiting on a work permit from the Ministry in Madrid, he was whisked away and turned out for the first time in all white, and became a catalyst for Madrid's 5 European Cups of the 50's.....
2: The Spanish media: nearly all national football coverage here is Madrid-centric. TV channel "La Sexta" (which pales in comparison to Antena 3 for its support of Real Madrid) made no reference a few weeks ago to the European champions' (that's Barça by the way) game on the same Tuesday, but DID air a brief report on the Madrid match, due to take place the following day; the following week, it reported Madrid's 4-1 aggregate defeat by 3rd division Alcorcón in the cup in the context of "now Madrid can't do the Treble"!! as if the whole country was desperately hoping that they would!
A club getting help from the government would be unthinkable in the UK, and I can't imagine anyone except the Manchester Echo saying "and now Utd can't do the Double" if they get knocked out!
Now does the rivalry make more sense?
Phil250.
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Phil, in your article you interviewed BBC journalist Gary Lineker, who provided a Liverpool-Everton and a North London comparison, yet you completely ignored Celtic-Rangers? Why? Where is the BBC Scotland journalist for Britain's biggest derby fixture?
Surely the Glasgow derby has far more emotion than anything created in Liverpool or London!?
Franklin Foer's excellent book on football rivalry covers the BIG derbies and he naturally includes the Glasgow giants. Celtic and Rangers play in front of 60,000 fans, more than the derbies at Everton, Spurs or Liverpool etc.
Keep it real, Phil!
A passionate "British" derby rooted in nationalism, identity, religion and tradition is surely the Glasgow fixture.
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Good article, interesting to explain to people a little of the huge political and historical conflict that the match is a symbolic part of. However, having lived in Catalunya for a year, as a Spanish student, I wanted to point out that it's common misconception that it was actually illegal to speak Catalan under Franco's reign. In reality, it was more or less impossible to stop people speaking whatever language they wanted to. Franco's regime just obliged people to go about all official business and dealings with the state, for example, in Castillian Spanish, as well as to name their children using Castillian spellings...
Incidentally, while I was there, I was able to attend Barcelona's final home game of last season, against Osasuna, where they collected their league trophy. Even though it was an essentially meaningless game, and they fielded a lot of youngsters, the sight of walking out and looking around the stadium full to the brim is something incredible. I'm a United fan, but for sheer spectacle I'd have to say that Camp Nou is something special. That said, Barca fans are actually remarkably reserved, and historically not enormously noisy, which, when compared with the atmosphere at El Clasico, probably only further demonstrates the intensity of what Barca v Madrid really means...
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ref 103
the di stefano story is i hope spot on... i also want to know about a vague story i was told of barca helping out madrid with shirts that they didn't have but real failed to respond in kind....?
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Just to say that Lineker has it right, its 120,000 capacity stadium.
98,000 official seats and space for 10,000 up in the "heavens" plus 5,000 for aways fans (all non-seater). Plus kids under the age of 7 go in for free (not accounted for). This gives the nou camp a maximum capacity of around 120,000 spectators (normally getting to this figure for the top games....)
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I haven't read the whole thread, but there are inaccuracies in Mr Minshull's article, as post 8 (and maybe others) points out. As always with this subject, so many people misunderstand the Spanish civil war, and for the author to say that "Catalonia held out longer" is simply untrue. Barcelona fell to the Nationalists on 26th January 1939. Madrid held out until 28th March - plain historical fact.
Remember too that Real Madrid didn't choose Franco, he chose the club.
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Sorry 'brilliantbarca', but you're talking absolute rubbish about the Camp Nou capacity, you've just invented more than 20,000 seats that not even FCB is claiming exist, only you!
As for the Di Stefano saga, plenty of conspiracy theories and urban legends have accumulated over the years. For a start, people look at it with hindsight, but at the time Di Stefano was a relative unknown in Europe, playing for Millionarios in Colombia but officially still on River Plate's books in Argentina. Di Stefano was approached by Barça while on tour in Venezuela, and the player decided not to return to Colombia, while Madrid also made an offer, and had every right to do so.
What followed was a complex legal battle between the two Spanish and the two South American clubs over who had said what and when, and the Spanish FA eventually stepped in with the bizarre solution that he should play alternate seasons for one team and the other.
The idea that Barça's involvement was ended because of any intervention by the Franco government is absolute nonsense invented later on out of Barça bitterness at how Di Stefano went on to lead to Madrid so much success. They had simply withdrawn their interest after the resignation of president Marti Carreto and the matter would have been forgotten in a few days had Di Stefano not turned out to be such one of the greatest footballers the world has ever known.
He's still working for Madrid now, very few players have ever loved their club as much he does, he went somewhere he was and still is very happy. It's never much fun when you fancy a girl and she goes off with the one person you despise more than anybody else, but these things happen, and you just have to move on...
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I almost forgot. To all those who think that Franco "helped" Real Madrid, consider this: in the first FOURTEEN years of his dictatorship, 1939-53, Barcelona won the championship FIVE times. Real Madrid won it ZERO times. 'nuff said.
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It is an absolute waste of time to read or comment on this game from an entrenched nationalistic point of view (Madrid) or a would-be nationalistic point of view (Barcelona) - people don't want to dialogue with each other; they just interchange their wearisome dialectical darts. There's a nice saying in Spanish that goes along the line of "Patriotism is the last reguge of miscreants" - read through here and you get lots of examples - the intellectual dishonesty is appalling.
The most interesting thing about the match is the clash of 2 footballing conceptions - The Barça way: mixing aesthetic beauty with effectiveness and spend 20 years cultivating the idea from the youth teams upwards vs the Madrid way: - buy your way to instant success by buying the best from other teams - sometimes called the galactic method - but maybe better tagged the "Nouveau -riche" method - and as such vulnerable to the time-honoured bad taste of the latter.
No doubt Barça will dominate the game but Madrid don't need to play football to score goals, hence the uncertainty of the result.
While I do hope the good guys win, what really worries me is that S'land don't fail at Wigan.
Haway the lads!
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ON CHRISTMAS, SOCCER GAMES AND IDEOLOGY ///// For the ones that try to disassociate soccer with politics, I would like to call to your attention that children like to think of Christmas as a magic thing, while ourselves, as adults, are able to realize that our culture has transform christmas into a consumerist practice. The same has happened with soccer: culture has taken over the game. That said, I enjoy my christmas presents as much as Ibra's, Messi, Xavi, KK or CR entertainment power. But lets not loose the real scope: While these two teams did not start as political emblems, they have truly become ideological icons and performative cultural platforms. The article above is a good introduction to the intricacies of it that in a simplistic way one could say: Madrid (conservative-oligarchic-force based) / Barça (progressive-democratic-culture based).
Just as a side observation, for those ones that do not really know the politics in Catalonia, just think about the fact that there is a team in Barcelona city called Espanyol (the Spanish). This fact just exemplifies by its presence, the absence of "spanish-ism" in the Catalan capital. Wouldn´t it be symptomatic to have a team called "the British" in ...?
In conclusion, just wanted to say thank you so much for you article portraying the underlying ideologies that these two teams represent. I can finally refer to a well informed article when colleagues around the world ask me what is about Barça that makes it "more than a club" and why, myself, being a pretty open minded person I could not support a team like Madrid.
Also, as a side note, and to keep you informed. You might notice today all over the stadium, multiple signs that protest against the present political situation in Spain regarding the ESTATUT, a cultural, political and social document that revisits the position of Catalonia within Spain, approved by the government and impended by the right wing party of Spain (PP). During the last week the Spanish-Catalan tension has aroused due to it and even multiple Catalan newspapers published a collective statement in its defense. Several institutions joined the statement, including the FC Barcelona.
And since we know that politics do not rely on futbol results but in crowds, let's hope for a great culturally speaking expressive crowd and ultimately, for a great present: a great match.
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This debate is great! It shows the depth of passion and complexity that is el clasico.
People like to simplify the war as Franco being the bad guy and the Republicans (who fought with the Catalans) as the good guys, but war in most cases is never so one-dimensional. The Republicans rule before the civil war was not some peaceful utopia. The constitution apparently promised equality but instead there was systematic persecution and murder of thousands of Catholic priests and repropriation of the churches property all in the name of anti-clericalism. Everyone was equal, except some were more equal than others it seemed. I am against Franco, but let's not simplify the issue and think the republicans were the unblemished heroes. Why did the civil war divide so many families? Because the issues and struggles were complex. You don't fight against your own brother for no good reason.
The civil war represented a clash of ideologies and El Clasico's symbolism this year is incredible. As a researcher in social trends, I came up with a 2 dimensional model to depict the emotional positionings of football teams. My analysis unintentionally found that Barca and Madrid were diametrically opposite in everything they stood for. One has a commercial company sponsoring them, one sponsors a non-profit organisation. One is relying on outwardly sourced heroes to propel them to victory, the other from inwardly sourced talent. One has relied on financial means to build a team, the other on an emotional vision of how football is meant to be played. One's revolution came a few months ago, the other's evolution starting decades ago. One president hired an outside coach to signal his arrival, the other promoted a coach from within to try and stave off his exit. One coach was hired as a wisened and proven tactician, the other was an untested rookie signed to be an inspiration to the players.
This is the past most succesful club in European football against the current unstoppable force.
The old vs. the new, individuality vs collectivism. This is Barca vs Madrid. This is El Clasico!
P.S. For the record, I bleed Barca. Visca Barca
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Enjoyed reading this very fine blog on the El Clasico. Thanks for all the historical information.
In India we have our own great derby between city giants Mohun Bagan Athletic Club and East Bengal often watched by over a hundred thousand fans in the football crazy City of Joy.
Real Madrid and Barcelona are sure to entertain us with their brilliant artistry this evening. Best wishes to the players and the fans.
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1 HR 45 MINS till kick-off and Barcelona is being drowned in a typical Mediterannean storm - bad conditions will definitely favour Madrid's style.
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It's now just about 90 minutes before the kick off. Many thanks to everyone who has made contributions over the last few days.
The BBC web site guts will be doing their usual sterling job tonight.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/8383572.stm
All the main Spanish newspapers are providing a live blog as well.
Here's a link to one I consider to be among the best.
http://www.marca.com/marcador/futbol/2009_10/primera/jornada_12/bar_rma/
No official teams yet but most Spanish media are reporting that Cristiano Ronaldo will start for Real, wtih Raul and Benzema on the bench. Arbeloa at left back with Marcelo pushed forward into the midfield on the left flank.
No surprises among the expected Barca starting 11, Ibrahimovic and Messi are fit while Henry and Toure are on the bench.
I thought I'd throw in a quick factual point. Gary Linekar was talking about 120,000 spectators at the Camp Nou becuase that was the rough capacity in the mid-80s when he was at the club.
With modifications and the stadium becoming all-seater, the current Camp Nou official capacity 98,772. Enjoy the game.
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Ah, the dangers of blogging! In my previous post 'guts' is a typo and should obviously read 'guys'.
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