Valero and Vieri: the future and the past
West Brom fans, and indeed many others, may be a bit surprised about what they are about to read next, but on Saturday night I think I might have seen the next great European midfielder.
His name is Borja Valero and he plays for Real Mallorca.
Yes, you did read that right. The very same Borja Valero who was the Baggies' record signing for £4.7 million from Mallorca at the start of last season before enduring a miserable dysfunctional season which ended with West Brom being relegated.
He never settled at The Hawthorns, adding his name to the long list of Hispanic players who have underperformed in England for all the stereotypical reasons like the physicality of the Premier League or even the British weather.
Valero did not enjoy his time in the Premier League
West Brom's new manager Roberto di Matteo didn't think too hard when several offers from Spanish clubs arrived during the summer and eventually Valero was loaned back to his former club.
However, a new Borja Valero has emerged, one that would be unrecognisable to those that watched him last season.
First of all, there is the new look.
Gone are the wavy locks and instead the one-time teenage star of the Real Madrid cantera (youth system) now sports a number one buzz cut and designer stubble.
Secondly and more importantly, since his return to Mallorca he has become the player West Brom had hoped he would be for them.
He's always been an indefatigable runner, linking the back four and strikers. Into the bargain, he's got many of the touches of the Barca pair of Xavi Hernandez and Andres Iniesta and has finally dared to show what he can do.
Valero has been the one of the main reasons why the cash-strapped Balearic island club are challenging for a place in next season's Champions League. Contrary to what English football observers might believe after he went a year without finding the net, he can score as well.
On Saturday, he grabbed a crucial injury-time equaliser in the 1-1 draw with Atletico Madrid - with Mallorca down to nine men thanks to some defensive indiscretions - his third goal of the season.
He has a habit of popping up at the right time. Until recently, he was probably best known locally for scoring the injury-time goal that gave Spain a 1-0 win over Turkey in the final of the 2004 European Under-19 Championships.
Valero scored the equaliser for Mallorca against Atletico Madrid at the weekend
Alongside him that afternoon in Switzerland were Real Madrid's Sergio Ramos and Raul Albiol, as well as Valencia's David Silva, who have all gone on to become regulars at senior level.
It's unlikely that Valero will be accompanying them to South Africa as Spain coach Vicente del Bosque has already said that the squad which played their final World Cup qualifiers earlier this month against Armenia and Bosnia is effectively the one he will rely upon next summer.
His way to getting his first cap is blocked by not only Xavi and Iniesta but also the Villarreal duo of Marcos Senna and Santi Cazorla but, if Mallorca get into Europe and Villarreal go down, then that situation may change quickly.
Valero now seems reluctant to return to Birmingham.
"I want to stay in Spain and hopefully at Mallorca. I feel very happy here," he told me after the game.
"Everybody understands what the coach wants, there is a very good feeling in the squad. The big issue is going to be the money. Mallorca did good business when they sold me. I hope their economic situation means they can buy me back but that's not certain."
The black hole in the Mallorca finances means that Valero is one of three on-loan players in the first team squad; they recalled another three of their own loaned players during the summer and didn't spend a single euro on signing players.
Moving from one man with a bright future ahead of him to another player with a multitude of talents: Christian Vieri, who decided to call it a day last Thursday at the age of 36.
For me, the Italian was one of the most natural gifted strikers in European club football over the last decade or so.
His wanderlust saw him play for 10 top-flight clubs in Italy (including the triumvirate of Inter, Milan and Juventus and three stints at Atalanta), Spain and France.
Injuries kept his productivity down in his final few seasons and stopped him getting a World Cup winner's medal in 2006 when, by general consensus, he would probably have been part of Marcelo Lippi's squad.
However, when fit, he was usually deadly.
The statistics tell their own story. He scored 162 goals in 251 first division games and 23 goals in 49 games when playing for the Azzurri.
At home his talents were recognised when he picked up the Italian Footballer of the Year award in 1999 and 2002. Abroad, I often felt he was not always given due credit, partly because he was never on the winning team in the Champions League or at a major international championship.
Vieri was a prolific force in his time with Atletico
I'm sure Inter, Juventus or Lazio fans might have something to say about this but perhaps his best single season was in the 1997-98 season when he was superb for Atletico Madrid.
The behind-the-scenes chaos at Atletico contributed to his departure after only one season but he'll never be forgotten after scoring 24 goals in 24 league appearances.
He also bagged five in the Uefa Cup in a run which saw Atletico reach the semi-finals that season, including a memorable hat-trick against PAOK Salonika. I will never forget the swerving shot from the byline that snooker trick shot specialist John Virgo would have been proud of.
Hi, I'm Phil Minshull. I've lived in Spain since 1997 and covered Spanish football since the first day I got here. My blog aims to provide some insight into what's happening in La Liga, and there is much more to it than only Real and Barcelona, as well as elsewhere around Europe.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~02~RS~)
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The physicality of english football is the reason it isn't the best football league in the world and will never be.
Cristiano Ronaldo said that one of the reasons for his move to Real Madrid was that even the small spanish clubs try to play football, while in England this is not true.
The english league is only hailed by the media as "The Best In The World" because it has 4 strong clubs performing well in European competitions, while in Spain and Italy this may not be true.
I can't see where today's Blackburn is better than today's Almeria or Atalanta.
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I think you are over rating a player Phil, he is just another Amr Zaki that was good in the begining of the season but will eventually fade.
Plus the picture of Borja Valero and N'gog had me thinking that you was going to mention N'gog as a next European star, I mean c'mon, that goal against United was important and cooly taken but no way will he be a superstar!
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Is there nothing better to spend your time writing an article about? The main story in Europe this year is barca vs madrid. Yet no mention of the splendid performances barca are putting in so far this season and I expect more especially since the high profile transfers in the summer.
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Well, here comes a West Brom fan.
He's far too lightweight to be a success anywhere but Spain, and he isn't the kind of player you would rely on playing against anyone with a bit of physicality. There is absolutely no way he'd be able to get past anyone in a Champions League/UEFA Cup team in this country, Italy, Germany and possibly even France. Stoke
He certainly had some talent, that is without question, but Borja Valero doesn't have the grit that makes a truely great player. Vieri would put his foot in if required, Valero would never do so.
If Borja Valero is the next great European Superstar, I look forward to your write ups of Glenn Whelan being the key to England's World Cup hopes, and Luke Moore's inevitable claim to have his name on the Ballon D'or by 2013...
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A half decent article which is spoilt at the end by the terrible analogy made, by comparing a goal scored by Christian Vieri, to a John Virgo trick shot. Awful.
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Can anyone out there imagine how miserable it becomes moving from Majorca to a bleak place where the locals take a masochistic pride in being called 'dummy Brummies'? As I recall, West Brom announced his acquisition like they'd just signed a superstar. Maybe expectations were way too high for instant gratification, and waiting anotherseason might have helped? I've seen Valera play a number of times over the last few years and he does indeed have the goods. The question is not about his quality and skills, but, rather, about how much bottle he owns. I guarantee that if Iniesta and Xavi Hernandez had been thrown in week after week against the likes of Blackburn and Bolton, they'd have swallowed it, too. I wouldn't be surprised to see him end up thriving with the likes of Villareal, Valencia or Sevilla where he'd be better protected
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I think it's all about certain players who will suit a certain type of football, and in Valero he is a player who will suit the Spanish game.... and in reponse to galoucura the Premiership is the best league in the world and it has nothing to do with having the best passers in the world..and if quoting Cristiano Ronaldo is having some sort of authority it certainly is a sad state that European football will never recover from..when the best English sides play at the pace and intensity that typifies English football there is not a single club side in the world who can live with them, because lets face it, even an average park player can look effective when he has time to put his foot on the ball, look around, assess what is around him, take five to pull his socks up and then eventually play a pass...and by the way it's a game that has winners and losers..and you get nil points for looking pretty without end product and if Blackburn (trust me I'm no fan !) get three points in their own style and playing to their own strengths then more fool those who question the method's of winners...look ugly and win or look good and get to the back of the unemployment line..and trust me it's pretty long awash with teams who wanted to play the beautiful game but actually forgot the essence of sport...winning
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As a specialist in Spanish football I'm not understanding one single sentence in this blog. Have another think about things before writing such nonsense. He goes and watches the game at the calderón and picks up on the goalscorer that won them a well deserved point. What about the collective effort of the whole mallorcan team? It seems to be the case in Spain, somebody scores an important goal in a match and suddenly all eyes are on that player without considering their quality or how consistent they have been throughout the season, or past seasons.
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Think you're exaggerating a few things here Phil. Valero has started the season well true but it's unlikely we'll be talking about him come the final part of the season. We are only 8 games into the La Liga season yet you're already acting like Villareal are about to go down and Mallorca are seriously challenging the top 4 places! With 30 games to go it is far too early to be making assumptions, especially that Villareal will be getting relegated and ruin Cazorla/Senna's WC chances!
At Post 7, you keep your 100mph thoughless football. Running around fast and firing the ball around aimlessly is of course football at it's purest.
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peej2k6,
Glenn Whelan would do well making the England squad. Hes Irish. A good sarcastic point not well made. Give Phil a break. I hope you watch a lot of Mallorca to have your opinions of how well hes playing.
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And I'm the next pope.
He showed very little at the Albion and it's not as if he wasn't give the chance to do it. Some flair but not real quality showed, no neat defence splitting passes and never held on to the ball or had a shot worth mentioning.
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I'm surprised a bigger deal wasn't made of Christian Vieri hanging up the boots. Although a moody so-and-so, he was one of the greatest strikers the game has seen in recent times. I recall at one point he was poised for a switch to Chelsea and at the time I couldn't be any more excited by the prospect. I always thought he would do well in England, he had the upper body strength and a killer instinct; it's a real shame he never got the chance.
I always rated him highly above the Inzaghis and the Del Pieros of that Italian set up.
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Vieri scored four goals from what i remember at World Cup 98, one i think was an awesome solo effort vs norway in the 2nd Round?
Anyway, he may not have been on the winning team but he certainly earned wide acclaim for those goals.
As for Borja Valero, you've not actually mentioned why he's got potential to be great, you've just said he's got a bit of Xavi and Iniest about him, not really a scout report that's going to convince people he will be a world beater, i've passed like Xavi once before and had a sequence like Iniesta, unfortunately few people saw and it happened once.
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Nice story,
I'll play devils advocate though. Is Borja Valero succeeding so far this season (surely 12 games odd in is a bit early to start hailing "the next great european midfielder) is because of just how weak the Spanish league is?!!
You obviously have Madrid & Barca, 2 of the best sides in europe, then a very strong Sevilla and a Valencia with some world class players amongst them. After that there really is very little. The poor sides in Spain are very poor, and I often think a lot of the Spanish football journalists have a tendency to talk it up to be stronger than in reality.
Let's not just ignore his season of nothingness in England. Every game, including against most of the weaker teams in the Premiership is tough. For the pace of the game and the physical challenge. He's simply not being tested like that in Spain, except for when he plays against the better teams.
And as for Cristian Vieri......never got the recognition he deserved in England?!!!!!! lol. He was world renowned as one of the finest strikers of his generation!! Any team in the world would have loved to have had him, right up there with Batistuta, Shearer, Ronaldo.
I enjoyed the read admitedly, but to be honest it kind of seems like you're living in a different world over there in Spain, where only Spanish football journalists possess the ability to recognise a class player!
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I'm a Baggie who is really pleased to see Valero is doing well again. He really IS good, and I know because the first time I saw him at The Hawthorns, he was sensational. Ironically, this was in a friendly against Mallorca while he was still playing for them, days before he signed for us. He was quick, incisive, his touch was perfect, and he was a constant threat. But overall, he was not suited to the English game, or culture I imagine. The Premiership is about physicality first, quality second. Mowbray's Albion had plenty of quality but not nearly enough physicality until it was too late to survive and Valero personified this. He was supposed to be our free role playmaker... but he was dragged into the battle and although he never shirked his defensive duties this really wasn't playing to his strenths.
It's sad that the Premier League is played in such a way, but it is what it is, so I shan't complain bitterly. When you put Premiership highlights together they can look amazing, far more thrilling than a Spanish game, however when you watch the whole 90 minutes, it's so much easier to appreciate that the Spanish style is more entertaining. It's for this reason that I loved seeing the diminutive yet brilliant Iniesta and Messi score the goals that defeated Chelsea and Man Utd in last seasons Champions League. When technique wins over brute strength it is a beautiful thing, especially in football. Mowbray knew this, the main reason that I miss him so very much since his departure to Celtic. He has an amazing future ahead of him as a manager, even though their will always be those who deride him as naive for the way he sticks to his footballing philosophies and beliefs.
Oh, and bobotonto, take your comments about West Bromwich and the Black Country and keep them to yourself. For your information, 'brummies' come from Birmingham, which isn't actually in the Black Country, and I'm sure Valero wasn't living in some Smethwick flat anyway!
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galoucura .. you are talking absolute bull .. trying telling that to Wenger. Coaches from all over the world come to pay homage at the altar of the Emirates (and I hate Arsenal) .. I remember Wenger saying 15 years ago that once the English game adopts the technique of the continent allied with their pace and physicality .. it will dominate.. not rocket science I know. But dont tell me La Liga tries to play football. How many times was Ronaldo injured in the Premiership .. he hardly missed a game in nearly 5 years .. check the stats. He's been playing in Spain a month and hes off injured already .. and of course diving is an art form over there. I watched the Real Madrid v AC Milan game last week - very good - but no less a spectacle than the big matches over here .. the Premiership is the most watched worldwide .. why? well its not for the refereeing. And as for the comparison of Atalanta or Almeria with Blackburn .. try a team from the Championship and in the topic itself West Brom or even QPR in their current form compare very favourably with those two.
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I THINK BRITISH FOOTBALL IS TOO MUCH ABOUT SPEED AND INTENSITY,THE ART FORM OF THE GAME IS WOEFULLY MISSING IN THE PREMIERSHIP.APART FROM ARSENAL WATCHING OTHER TEAMS IS LIKE AMERICAN FOOTBALL,ONE BIG FIGHT FOR THE BALL.BRITISH FOOTBALL NEED TO TAKE A LOOK AT ITS ACHIEVEMENTS,NO PLACE IN THE LAST EURO CHAMPS AND JUST ABLE TO BEAT THE SMALLER TEAMS IN EUROPE.IS THE PREMIERSHIP GOING TO LEARN FROM THE BEATING UNITED GOT FROM BARCA
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Albert RafaTorres Riena
How can you say that Ngog's goal was important. It was recorded at 90 minutes + 6. Time added on was 5 minutes. So effectively it was game over before the goal. Now, had the goal been scored at the other end, we wouldn't be hearing the last of it, would we?
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Player in the first figure reads Babel...
Although it is N'gog from Liverpool
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I can barely believe response No.3. Complaining that you are not hearing about Barca / Madrid!!! All we ever hear about is Barca // Madrid from La Liga. One small article with relevance to English football and you are complaining. You seem to have fallen for the marketing claptrap of the moneybags teams hook line and sinker. Sad really.
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No 1 Galoucura and No 17 powmishpow. Although, its true that sometimes British football relies too heavily on physical assets, you shouldnt start believing that Spain has all the answers. You guys have only 2 years of winning to boast about - before that nothing. You better make the most of the current team - more imparticular Xavi and Iniesta - they are the difference and without them you would be just the same as always. The Spanish have nothing positive to say about Italian football either. Im hoping they dont win the next World Cup because the fans mouths are getting too big.
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I hope someone new wins the world cup. Im bored of brazil/italy/germany winning things. Id like a quality african or non european team to win. That would ensure the great cup would go somewhere where it would be really appreciated. b
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Sorry but the real next European superstar is Ajax' Luis Suarez. There is no player like him and with 15 goals in 11 league matches so far he's on his way to become most scoring player ever in Dutch league.
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16 TheCynicalSasquatch obviously not an objective comment... Your arguments prove your ignorance. Ronaldo was injured in a Champions league game against a French team... Regarding the Liga vs Premier ... Some people might prefer the Premier, some the liga. Why does one have to be the best ? Cannot both be good on their own way. Just because we hear journalists talking about 'the best league in the world' don't have to believe it. One thing is certain, the Premiership is richer and it may receive more worldwide exposure... I think that before calling one's own league proudly 'the best in the world' it shouldn't depend largely on foreign players and managers...
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If you really were at the game Saturday then I've no idea what you were watching. Yes, Valero ran around like and fell over a great deal but to say that he's a future star is rediculous. His shot in the last minute to claim the equaliser has more to do with an inexperienced keepers lack of ability than any great ability of Valero.
As for the comments about his wishing to stay in Spain... hmmm. He went on air with MARCA post match and clearly stated that he wanted to return to West Brom or if that wasn´t possible that any other team comes in for him. Hardly the words of someone wanting to stay at Mallorca. Personally he gave me the sensation of someone simply wanting a new contract on the back of one goal a typical mecenary footballer.
Finally, curious if you were at the match, that you choose to write about a bit player in the game when Spains 3rd biggest club is in turmoil, protests before during and after the match as well as a new manager coming in. If you had wished to focus on players then theres the declining form of Aguero Forlan or Simao to talk about.
I've read this and your other blog posts about Spanish football and personally find perhaps 10% of the article to be correct. Maybe you're spending too much time in the press boxes and need to get out into the cafeterias pre match to understand what Spanish football is all about!
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14. At 00:37am on 27 Oct 2009, Roberto_Mexicano:
If poor sides in the Liga are so poor, explain why you need to score nearly 6 points more on average in Spain than in England to avoid relegation. Do the numbers. This is what you'll find comparing the last decade of Liga and PL football:
Narrower goals differences both among top and bottom Liga teams
More points needed in Spain to avoid relegation
Top Liga teams losing more games than top PL teams.
More Liga teams winning the Copa del Rey than PL teams winning the FA Cup
More Liga teams producing the league's top scorer
More teams winning the Liga than the PL
More teams breaking the Top-2, Top-3 or Top-4
More Liga teams lifting European silverware
More European trophies outright for Liga teams
If teams near the bottom beat teams near the top more often, score more points and post narrower goals differences, how do you reach the conclusion that poor Liga teams are so much poorer than poor PL teams?
This is all part of the endless droning over how competitive the PL is, oblivious to the fact that since its inception a single team has won 11 out of 17 editions!
16. At 01:39am on 27 Oct 2009, TheCynicalSasquatch:
C.Ronaldo was injured vs Olympique Marseille and aggravated his injury playing for Portugal. How exactly does that prove your point?
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Phil,
I think you've jumped the gun a bit here on Valero.
"He's got many of the touches of the Barca pair of Xavi Hernandez and Andres Iniesta and has finally dared to show what he can do."
It's an almightly claim in the sense that these two are surely in the top 5 for the Ballon D'Or this season and Xavi is probably one of the most complete midfielders we've seen this decade.
I'll be travelling to Spain for the Barcelona vs Mallorca game in little under two weeks - Valero has a real chance to shine here but he's going to have to reach the same level the Valencia midfield reached a few weeks back - I just can't see it.
I think more focus should be spent on players such as Benega who offer real promise (and was linked with Everton in the summer).
http://www.worldfootballcolumns.com
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come on hpil. i think you have got htis wrong mister. i like him, but i also like many a players. borha is doing ok compared to west bromwich, but i think that he is not a man who will become a great.
i remember the 2003 championships when dwayne routledge looked an awaesome player, and who has also had good runs of form in the premiership. this does nt; mean he is the next world star.
but the fact remained that he isn't because he was just going through a good spell of form.
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I tend to agree Valero is a bit far from being the next big thing in Europe. He is nowhere near the Spanish side at the moment, with the likes of Silva, Xavi, Iniesta, Fabegas, Xabi Alonso, Senna, Busquets, Cazorla, Riera, Pablo Hernandez and some other contenders struggling to get their spot in the squad.
Valero has some good technique but so far he has appeared as a soft player. You can ompare him with the likes of De las Cuevas (Sporting Gijon) or Parejo (Getafe) and you would see their seasons are as good as Valero's.
Spanish football benefits technical players over the physical ones. Valer would struggle at West Brom even if Mowbray favoured a passing style of fotll. There is always the need to adapt to new city, a new language and all those topics. Some people in Spain mention Torres with Liverpool is twice the player he is with Spain, also due to a style of football that suits him better with the Reds than with "La Roja".
I disagree with Roberto_Mexicano on the quality of the leagues. If you watched, as I did, Hull v Portsmouth you would agree any Spanish side would play them off the park. The physical side of the game is important, but a team of dwarves with good passing skill can beat the big strong guys. See Spain v Germany in Euro 2008 as an example.
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Vieri was a class striker. Has he been able to settle in a squad, he would have gained status of legend for them. He was full of goals; even in an Atletico side that would do their outmust to ruin Vieri's good performances (I recall a 4-3 defeat at Salamanca after Vieri scored a hat-trick). He was a player that could have achieved a lot more. Maybe someone from Italy can give us the reasons why he wouldn't stay in a club and why that potential was never fully developed, though he did very well in almost all his sides.
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Valero now seems reluctant to return to Birmingham.
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Think you will find it's Sandwell Town
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#26 - Good points made.
Ultimately, I don't see how anybody can reach a conclusion about which league is the best. Its down to personal preference. To be honest, in terms of excitement the English Championship is right up there at the moment!
Peronally, I think the standard of football being played in Spain is higher so far this season than that of the EPL. Last season, except for Barca, I think the EPL had a higher standard of football. Not sure why, but the leading English teams appear to have forgotten how to defend and this is a worry not only for their Champions League campaigns but also for England's outside shot at the World Cup.
Ultimately, whatever league you most enjoy watching is the best league for you. I'm happier watching amateur football in Bristol than I am watching the EPL or La Liga, so I'm going to say that's the best!
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English league is better? The top four is stronger but tha match ups for the rest of the league would go to Spain. Valencia versus Everton? Don't tell me you think Everton would stand a chance.
Lost a lot of good players over the last few months; Vieri, Maldini, Figo, Nedved.
Hookers_armpit wrote:
"I can barely believe response No.3. Complaining that you are not hearing about Barca / Madrid!!! All we ever hear about is Barca //Madrid"
Good post. #3 would do well to remember there is a world of football outside the ten teams that make up the last 16 of the Champions League each year. An entire world full of riches. This blog's heart is in the right place.
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Job title: Writer for BBC Sport website
Description: Pick a random player from a European or South American league. Write article declaring him to be the new Pele. Publish. Wait for replies.
Salary: Too much.
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vieira was an excellent player a real bull of a human and a awaesome turn of pace he had too, dfast and a bull, he was unstoppable. he didn't mind how to score he just did it. as a yeung man in '98 i think he was at his best, and had a fabulous world cup
it suprises me how he won so few caps, he was a modern day girogio chinalgia. an combonation of the italian way of playing combined with the aggressive horseman like physicality of an australian,
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Anyone who watched albion last season will know that Valero is not a world beater. He did have some good touches, but started most of the games and didn't score a single goal. He looked promising sometimes but he was just simply too lightweight and didn't make a tackle until about 3 games from the end. The only time he looked like he might fit into our team was when Greening was injured and he played a deeper role knocking the ball about a bit more, but tbh he never looked like scoring once when playing for albion.
I'm pleased he's doing well as hopefully we will recoup some of the £4.7m we paid for him (eclipsed only by £3m for Luke Moore).
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1. At 9:57pm on 26 Oct 2009, galoucura wrote:
The physicality of english football is the reason it isn't the best football league in the world and will never be.
Cristiano Ronaldo said that one of the reasons for his move to Real Madrid was that even the small spanish clubs try to play football, while in England this is not true.
Arsenal invented what Barca now do.
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"Arsenal invented what Barca now do."
I think you'll find the Dutch did. Years ago.
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"Plus the picture of Borja Valero and N'gog had me thinking that you was going to mention N'gog as a next European star, I mean c'mon, that goal against United was important and cooly taken but no way will he be a superstar!"
How is this relevant? it 'had you thinking' that Phil would talk about N'Gog, but he didn't... so what's your point?
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36. At 11:03am on 27 Oct 2009, captainlazytim wrote:
Arsenal invented what Barca now do.
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You just embarrassed yourself horribly. You do know Barca have a history of playing beautiful football? When the Dream Team under Cruyff were winning titles and a European Cup with free flowing football, Arsenal were scraping their 1-0s based on Adams Dixon et al. Arsenal are trying to emulate Barca, and there's nothing wrong with that.
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32- you say that the best four in England are strong but the rest of the match ups would go Spains way.
Valencia vs Everton is not a match up.
Valencia are arguably Spains fourth best side so that would pit them against Liverpool or Arsenal. The english teams would run riot in my opinion. Everton are struggling this season so to use them as an example put them against someone like Villareal. Again in my opinion the English team would win.
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5. Just googled the Vieri hat trick versus PAOK. I think the John Virgo analogy is fairly spot on, its a wonderful goal and a great example of a goalie trying to be too clever. Just put the ball out!!!!
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www.football-journo.com
Good article, its nice to read about the "smaller" issues of European football rather than Barcelona - Real Madrid all the time
A quick response to the following comment:-
1. At 9:57pm on 26 Oct 2009, galoucura wrote:
The physicality of english football is the reason it isn't the best football league in the world and will never be.
Yes we all love to see technical football but the Physical side of the game is just as important as the technical side of it and so that shouldn't be held up as a negative. You've got to play to your stregnths.
www.football-journo.com
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ChelseaLad89 wrote:
"Valencia are arguably Spains fourth best side so that would pit them against Liverpool or Arsenal."
I was going by last season's placing. Everton finished 5th and Valencia were actually worse, finishing in 6th (forgot Villarreal finished 5th). I know on paper they might be the fourth best but that isn't set in stone yet. The best striker in the world played for the 6th best team in Spain last season; quite a compliment.
I did state the top four in England are generally stronger (even though that might change this year as the English sides don't have the best players - Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Ronaldo, Kaka, Casillas etc and Sevilla could certainly give Liverpool/Arsenal a good game)...the rest of the Spanish league would trump the Premiership. Remember Villarreal - Everton a few years ago in a CL qualifier? It was embarrassing for Everton, though they nearly got through. The quality of your average player in Spain is higher and defending in both leagues is poor, giving the advantage to the Spanish teams. IMHO, of course.
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Valencia are playing superbly right now, and an attacking line of Villa, Silva, Mata supported by the likes of Banega and Pablo would destroy Spurs back line. They would also tear apart rubbish like Carragher if they played Liverpool. Defensively however they are poor, which is why Sevilla are Spain's 3rd side currently.
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I think it's back to the playground - my liga's bigger than yours, who cares. I would rather watch the EPL and the CCC than La Liga, Serie A etc etc. The football just doesnt excite me. Having 10 seconds before you pass a ball, my dog could do that.
I thought comment 26 was interesting, thought i'd make a few points: (MY COMMENTS ARE IN CAPITAL)
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If poor sides in the Liga are so poor, explain why you need to score nearly 6 points more on average in Spain than in England to avoid relegation. Do the numbers. This is what you'll find comparing the last decade of Liga and PL football: I CAN'T SEE HOW THIS RELEVANT - JUST PROBABLY MEANS THERE ARE MORE DRAWS IN THE EPL THATS ALL.
Narrower goals differences both among top and bottom Liga teams - THIS ALSO IS IRRELEVANT - YOU CAN WIN ONE WEEK 5-0 AND LOSE 5-0 THE WEEK AFTER AND HAVE 0 GOAL DIFFERENCE.
More points needed in Spain to avoid relegation - IRRELEVANT - CANT SEE HOW THIS WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THE QUALITY OF LEAGUES
Top Liga teams losing more games than top PL teams. - MEANS THEY ARE NOT THAT GOOD THEN - LIVERPOOL LOST TWICE LAST YEAR AND DID NOT WIN THE LEAGUE
More Liga teams winning the Copa del Rey than PL teams winning the FA Cup - YOU CAN'T BEAT FACTS WHEN YOU CAN MAKE IT UP - UNLESS I AM INCORRECT YOU WILL HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE 70'S FOR A TEAM IN THE TOP FLIGHT NOT WINNING THE FA CUP
More Liga teams producing the league's top scorer - WHAT RELEVANCE - MEANS YOU HAVE POORER DEFENCES.
More teams winning the Liga than the PL- IN THE SAME TIME SPAN 5 WINNERS OF LA LIGA AND 4 WINNERS OF EPL - NOT A HUGE DIFFERENCE
More teams breaking the Top-2, Top-3 or Top-4 - BECAUSE YOUR CLUBS CANT AFFORD TO SUSTAIN THE FINANCIAL COMPETITION AGAINST YOUR BIG 2 TEAMS
More Liga teams lifting European silverware - LETS FACE IT THE CL/EUROPEAN CUP IS THE MAIN THROPHY WORTH WORRYING ABOUT - YOU WERE RIGHT A MASSIVE 12 TO SPAIN AND 11 TO ENGLAND - LETS NOT FORGET WE WERE BANNED FOR A FEW YEARS AS WE WERE HITTING OUR PEAK AND IT TOOK A FEW YEARS TO GET BACK INTO IT.
More European trophies outright for Liga teams
If teams near the bottom beat teams near the top more often, score more points and post narrower goals differences, how do you reach the conclusion that poor Liga teams are so much poorer than poor PL teams?
This is all part of the endless droning over how competitive the PL is, oblivious to the fact that since its inception a single team has won 11 out of 17 editions! - I DONT UNDERSTAND THIS BIT - BOTTOM HAD BEAT TOP OF LEAGUE SINCE THE INCEPTION OF FOOTBALL - IT HAPPENS - CHECK OUT THE EPL RESULTS THIS YEAR AND YOU MIGHT SEE A FEW.
THANKS FOR YOUR TIME FOR LOOKING INTO ALL THE POINTS YOU RAISED - YOU JUST WASTED 20 MINUTES OF MY LIFE DOING IT FOR YOU.
WHY SPOIL A GOOD STORY WITH FACTS......
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#1 galoucura
You seem to be missing something that most people miss about Spanish football. The reason it isn't physical and relies on more skill (which only works BECAUSE of my following point) is because the spanish players are weak. Their defending is ABSOLUTELY terrible which I can vouch for having watched plenty, especially this season.
You are comparing a team that lies 12th (Almeria) with blackburn who lie 16th and are currently under-achieving and under-performing under current management.
IMO not just the top 4 but the top 10 of the premier league would beat the top 10 of the spanish league.
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#17 powmishpow
Let's look at the current facts...
1) Barcelona's last champions league result
2) Manchester United and Chelseas perfect Champs League record so far
3) English clubs competing in the last 5 finals
4) England comprehensively reaching the World Cup finals
5) Manchester United beating Barcelona (who failed to score) in their previous meeting to last year's win
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1. At 9:57pm on 26 Oct 2009, galoucura wrote:
The physicality of english football is the reason it isn't the best football league in the world and will never be.
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No, the physicality of english football is the main reason it IS the best football league in the world. On top of all the quality of course.
If you want a non-contact sport, try badminton. (Or Spanish football?)
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Don't know about Valero. We'll see how he goes over the course of a season, or whether he's a one-hit-wonder.
As for Vieri, I didn't know he was still going; either way, what a pro. In many ways the prototype Centre Forward that Drogba, Viduka, Shearer, etc... seem to have copied for so long. I've always regretted that we never got to see him play in the EPL, as I'm sure he'd have thrived!
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#43 - your comparison is completely unjust. in 2005 Everton were nowhere near the side they are today. I'd even say player for player, todays team let alone the squad is far superior to the 2005 equivalent. And yes, they were outplayed, but this was a Villareal side that boasted the previous season's European golden boot winner (Forlan) arguably one of the finest, maverick all round midfielders, in his best career period (Riquelme) as well as the likes of Sorin, Senna in his prime and many others. They also reached the CL semi-final that year, and would have made the final but for a missed penalty to the side you SHOULD be comparing them to, Arsenal, who subsequently beat them over 2 legs. Cheers
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You can argue all day over the merits of English and Spanish football, but all I'd say is that the mark of a genuinely good footballer should be that they can adapt to any style that they are required to play.
If a player can deliver the goods in any team, playing in any system, against any opposition, then you can call them great. If they only flourish in particular environment, then they're good but not great.
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I love it when Spanish football fans talk about more skill being in La Liga, even from the little teams.
The Premiership now has plenty of skillful players, but it's the pace of the English game that makes the difference - Makes it harder and more exciting.
The speed at which you play, whilst still maintaining the level of technical excellence is what determines your ability. Anyone can be skillful under less pressure, but the Premier League is where players find out if they can really cut it. This is why so many foreign players that looked great in other countries struggle in England - i.e. Shevchenko, Forlan or Reyes. When they were faced with more pressure, less time to play and a physical challenge they found their technique couldn't stand up to the test.
This is demonstrated by the fact that in the past 5 years England have had a respresentative in the champions League finals, regularly sweeping aside the likes of Juventus, Inter, Sevilla, Villareal etc.
La Liga certainly has it's fair share of the World's best players now: Messi, Ibrahimovic, Henry, Xavi, Iniesta, Villa, Fabiano, Ronaldo, but for the most part they're all at the best 2 or 3 clubs whereas in the Premiership probably the top 8 teams could all boast a world star or 2.
........discuss...........
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At 9:57pm on 26 Oct 2009, galoucura wrote "The physicality of english football is the reason it isn't the best football league in the world and will never be."
Bizarre comment in my opinion. English football is the most wide watched and "best" football league in the world because it is soo entertaining. the style of play is irrelevant, though clearly fast and furious makes it entertaining.
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Great response so far I feel Phil! As it goes I think you have a point as Borja looks a talent to me, although I didn't see much of him at West Brom. Players develop folks, and particularly in a style of football that suits them best, keep that in mind.
On the EPL v La Liga debate - yes, Premiership football is so exciting they still talk about that 4-3 Liverpool - Newcastle game from a decade ago - those classic encounters just keep on coming. There's one of those every year in Spain. If there's any goals at all in the big 4 games in England it's a cause for celebration. Last season you had Atletico - Barca and Madrid - Barca, absolutely fantastic games that were better than anything the EPL has produced in a long time.
Jon B - actually I found your post to be more of a waste of time that the one you responded to. I think the original post was asking you to consider these points together and not in the bizarre isolated way you have done.
jaydrawmer - lets look at the current facts you say "5) Manchester United beating Barcelona (who failed to score) in their previous meeting to last year's win". I mean you can't get any more current than that eh? How many seasons ago was that???? And why are we forgetting the CL result in this analysis?
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Sorry for stating the blinking obvious but BOTH LEAGUES ARE VERY GOOD IN DIFFERENT WAYS! There is no clear cut way of determining which is better. For every fan of the EPL who points out the number of English teams in the CL semis last season, there will be a La Liga fan who will point out that Barca won the tournament and that Real have improved massively since last season.
Those who like their football physical, quick and direct will prefer the EPL. Those who prefer a more tactical, patient give with slightly better technique will prefer La Liga.
For me the bottom line is that if the top team from each league played each other and then 2nd v 2nd, 3rd v 3rd etc then unless there was an absolute thrashing, there wouldn't be any shock results. By which I mean if Barca played Chelsea it wouldn't be a surprise if either team won. Same goes for Man U v Real.
Another interesting observation is that Ronaldo seems to be having a very similar level of success in Spain as he has had in England for two comparable clubs, suggesting that the opposition may be of a similar standard. There are obviously weaknesses in this argument (as there are in all of the arguments above) but it points to what I think is the truth of the matter: both league contain teams of a very similar standard. One season one league might have the edge (I'd suggest that this year it is La Liga, on the basis that the defending in England has gone mad) whilst the other league may appear superior the next (I think that the two previous years the EPL was slightly better).
Apologies for sitting on the fence, but someone has to try and stop the kiddies arguing!
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Just checked the date.
Surprisingly, it's not April 1st.
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#7. masher7
It's good to see there are still many ignorant Englishmen out here. No team can live in the pace of the PREM right?? What did Barcelona do to Manchester United. Did they even touch the ball? What good is pace when you don't have the ball?? Or maybe your a volleyball or ping pong fan? You like to see people throw balls up in the air and others throw it back in the air. That's so much fun, yeah.
As for the superiority of the Premier League, why do top athletes seem to be leaving the prem? Footballers love playing football, and the prem league kills football. Did any of you watch MANCHESTER VS LIVERPOOL. The english derby right? Terrible, terrible football. Pushing people around and kicking the ball up in the air with no purpose what so ever, no organization, nothing. Is that the great Prem League?
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54. At 2:09pm on 27 Oct 2009, vcfsantos wrote:
"Apologies for sitting on the fence, but someone has to try and stop the kiddies arguing!
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Ouch! But fair point.
On the other hand, when somone makes a ridiculous comment such as "The physicality of english football is the reason it isn't the best football league in the world and will never be. ", it's only right that we should respond.
On a similar theme, I remember a few years ago when Italian football was supposedly the "best in the world", Channel 4 started showing live games. I looked forward to seeing a game and watched a 3-3 match (don't remember the teams) and it was one of the most boring, insipid games I've ever had the misfortune to sit through (much like the Spanish football that I've seen (IMO obviously!)). Obviously the commentators raved about it though. But for some reason, they didn't think it was worth mentioning the crowd throwing bottles at the opposition players...now if that had been in England....
No, give me the passion, exitement and intensity of English football any day.
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"49. At 1:38pm on 27 Oct 2009, tomefccam wrote:
#43 - your comparison is completely unjust."
The Everton/Villarreal comparison is not unjust - they finished in the same spot in their respective leagues and therefore met in the qualifiers! They even finished in the same spot last season. You seem to say it's unjust because Villarreal had world class players and Everton are better now!
All that tells me is that Villarreal finished 4th in La Liga with world beaters and Everton finished 4th in the Premier League with an avergae squad, which backs my point up. I guess that's what you object to?
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16 -
First, Arsenal. The only team in Premiership I truly admire. Why? Because they know what to do with the ball.
Second, Cristiano. Perhaps injury is not what you want to compare, cause I can get injured by a tackle that was exception, rather then rule(and as pointed out, it happened in the Champions League). You may look at fouls against in each league. And to be honest with you, I didn't bother looking(cause I don't know where I'd find it) but to someone who saw Man Utd games(about 22 last season) and 3-4 Real Madrid games this year, it's pretty obvious where it has the most violent football: England.
Third, on Real Madrid vs AC Milan. WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING BUDDY? Milan comes from ITALY and it was a CHAMPIONS LEAGUE game. How can you use it to compare the EPL to the La Liga?
Fourth, I still think in Almeria as a good team to compare with Blackburn. Except that I think that Almeria would win comfortably.
51 - World stars on La Liga and Premier League.
Atletico Madrid has Forlan, Aguero.
Sevilla has Luis Fabiano
Villarreal has Cazorla, Senna, Rossi.
Valencia has Villa, Silva, Mata.
So with Barca and Real we have 6 clubs with World stars.
In the premier league, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man Utd, Man City and Chelsea have world stars. Aston Villa doesn't, Everton doesn't, Tottenham doesn't and so on.
That's 6 against 5?
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West Brom fan here.
As a season ticket holder at the Baggies to see you mentioning Valero in the same breath as Xavi as Iniesta is a surprise to say the least.
Valero is a player who has good technique, good in possession and keeping the ball, although that is pretty much the extent of his talents.
He can't run or tackle, is lightweight, doesn't have great vision to create much and seems to lose his head infront of goal. I can't remember a shot on target all season, which speaks volumes.
Maybe it was a psychological issue, how else could someone with such accurate passing have such an unaccurate shot? Maybe he was just homesick. I really don't know.
I'm glad Borja is playing well, because obviously id want us to recoup as much of what we paid as possible when we sell him on next summer. He doesn't have a future at the Baggies or in England in general to be honest.
Although even if Borja was playing to the best of his ability, much like when he first came to us, to mention him in the same breath as Xavi and Iniesta is very wide off the mark!
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59 - You're argument about World Stars is all down to opinions.
You mention Rossi as a worldstar at Villareal and then you say that Tottenham and Villa don't have world stars...
So you'd say that Rossi is more of a world star than Modric? Modric was probably the hottest property in europe when Spurs signed him. Personally id suggest Carew is more of a world star than Rossi..
I suppose what i'm saying is that it's all about opinions...
I mean Rossi hardly set the world alight when he played in the Prem. I would suggest that different styles of play suit different teams better.
I couldn't care less which country has a better league. I'm English but id rather watch Barca than anyone else at the moment. They were argubly the best team in the world last season and rightfully won the champions league. In previous years English teams have dominated though.
Football is always moving on. Players move on. Some get better, some get worse. The best team this year may be well down the pecking order next year. At the moment the spanish teams have the better players in Ronaldo, Messi, Kaka, Iniesta, but does that mean the Champions league will be won by a spanish team this season? Maybe, maybe not.
There simply isn't a logical argument for which is better based on anything more than speculation and opinions. Look at Athletico this season, they went to Chelsea and looked worse than Stoke City. This could be my argument for the PL being better, of course, this would again be simply speculation.
Lets just hope we have another Champions League campaign, which like last year, is won by the best team in the world at the moment.
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58. At 3:09pm on 27 Oct 2009, Art Vandelay wrote:
Sorry my point needed to be that Villareal actually finished 3rd that season, Everton as you say quite rightly finished 4th.
Key to mention that as a good indication of what level these teams were in their respective leagues i include their final league places for the season you mention and the one before and after:
Villareal - 2003/2004 8th - 2004/2005 3rd - 2005/2006 7th
Everton - 2003/2004 17th - 2004/2005 4th - 2005/2006 11th
Therefore using the champions league game between the two as a measure of comparison between the leagues i feel is unfair.
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Galoucura,
Clearly we see more of our own leagues than the others, and you will have different opinions based on what you see in your own league, just as I will.
You claim the following to be "World Class Stars" in La Liga:
Atletico Madrid has Forlan, Aguero.
Sevilla has Luis Fabiano
Villarreal has Cazorla, Senna, Rossi.
Valencia has Villa, Silva, Mata.
Forlan, as we all know was one of the biggest Premier League flops in history at Man Utd, Aguero, ok, don't think anyone would argue.
Luis Fabiano - Certainly seems a talent, although i'd even change my own mind at the moment and question his "World Class".
Cazorla, yep. Very good on the ball, Senna..........hmmmm. Very good defensive midfielder. Is he a Viera at his peak, Mascherano or Makalele? Opinions isn't it? You'd probably say yes. Rossi? What has he done to be classified World Class? Remember he didn't make the grade at Man Utd or on loan at Newcastle. Although very young he had to leave English football to find success (As Forlan did).
Valencia. Ok wouldn't argue with them. You also seem to have disregarded my statement that: "for the most part they're all (world class players)at the best 2 or 3 clubs." Well, ur reply proves it. For the most part they are all at Barca, Real & Valencia, minus 1 or 2 at other clubs mentioned above.
You also say: "In the premier league, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man Utd, Man City and Chelsea have world stars. Aston Villa doesn't, Everton doesn't, Tottenham doesn't and so on.
That's 6 against 5? "
Clearly you've not watched enough English football if you don't think Modric & King are World Class at Tottenham. Perhaps Palacious too.
Anyhow. It's all opinion isn't it. The only subjective evidence you can use to compare the two leagues against each other is Champions League success. There is no other way........here the Premier League wins hands down over the past 5 years. Finalist every year, as I said before (& which you chose to ignore, which I guess suggest you had no argument against it) and regular wins over Juventus, Inter, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Athletico Madrid, Roma, Villareal etc.....in fact all the top teams from all of Europe's top leagues!
Fact of the matter is Barcelona are the only other side in Europe along with Milan that have shown they can compete with English football in recent years!
..think it's time you stopped talking really isn't it?
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It would also be nice if we had a reply from Phil really wouldn't it, seeing as he's been thoroughly shot down over his blog!
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peej2k6 - given that Glenn Whelan is irish and plays for the irish national team he is extremely unlikely to have a starring role for england at the world cup even if he does some how discover a midas touch
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"My dad can beat your dad up."
"No he can't."
"Our league's better than yours."
"No it's not!"
The quality oof reaction to BBC blogs is astoundingly high today. Fantastic adult debate, it must be said. Maybe the BBC should give up on blogs as the "opinions" expressed contain pure abuse or end up talking muck. How can someone's opinion of a footballer be turned into a (very loosely-defined)"debate" of who's league is better?
Come in children, time for your bath!
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Steve_Boy - i think you'll find he was trying to state facts without actually researching them.
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More Liga teams winning the Copa del Rey than PL teams winning the FA Cup
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This being one of the many facts he was trying to point out....... or too complicated for you.
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ShadyPinesEscapee,
Are you stupid? It's an honest question, not trying to make fun.
How can people be childish for discussing the strengths of two opposing football leagues? It's a constant source of debate, and, as you seem to have somehow failed to understand (although i'm not sure how as it seems painfully obvious)when a player who failed miserably in one league is being described as "the next great european midfielder" the following season in a different league it naturally opens up the debate about the strengths and challenges of those leagues..........didn't you realise that?!
Using the "my Dad is better than your Dad" joke you have tried to suggest people are being stupid, but children come up with those arguments in the same way adults wonder who would win between Manny Paquiaou & Floyd Mayweather? Will Button or Hamilton win the F1 championship next year? It's the reason we have the Olympics or the Davis Cup.....and The Champions League. It's because mankind is naturally competitive and inquisitive so when Forlan or now Borja Valero fail so miserably in England only to be hailed as "World Class" in Spain the following year people will naturally seek to answer the question why? They will search to come up for a reason to identify how this could happen, hence the "Premier League is stronger than La Liga" debate we've had here.
I can quite honestly say I have never seen such an arrogant, pompous & downright stupid post on here..........honestly!
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You took the words out of my mouth Roberto_Mexicano. Galoucura, I think you're way off the mark.
As a devoted follower of the Premier League living in Madrid I'm blessed to be able to watch a lot of football from both Spain and England without having to line the pockets of Mr Murdoch.
A lot of my friends from back home often wax lyrical about Spanish football and the players we have in La Liga and I honestly believe there is a "grass-is-greener" mentality with regards to how each league is perceived. Many of the resident "Madrilenos" I speak to in the cafes and bars maintain that the EPL is better on account of its pace and power. However, pace and power does not necessarily = violence. Galoucura, if you were to check the amount of red cards in La Liga compared to EPL last season then I think you'd be in for a bit of a shock. (65 "roja directas" in La Liga compared to 36 "straight reds" in the EPL would suggest that La Liga is more violent.) It would not be an exageration to say that the majority of the Spaniards I speak to prefer the EPL to La Liga (about the same majority that prefer La Liga back home!)
In relation to the comment you made about Villa, Everton and Spurs, I don't agree. Defoe, Modric, Ashley Young, Agbonlahor, Cahill, Arteta stand up to the names you mentioned and, to my mind, in many cases surpass players such as Aguero, Rossi and Cazorla.
Ultimately, however, I'm still sitting on the fence and appreciate both leagues for their respective qualities. In fact, I would argue that the difference between the two leagues is best represented by the stark difference in KO times. Spanish friends I have here in Madrid are amazed that we often have lunchtime KOs in England just as my mates back home can't understand how a referee can blow up for a match at 12AM on a Sunday morning. Different? Yes. Better or worse? No.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Nice to see so many people completely missed my point about referencing Glenn Whelan playing for England there then!
The point is being Irish he couldn't.
Just like Valero, not being that talented, won't be a Euro Superstar...
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Art Vanderlay: great name; did you always want to pretend to be an architect?
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67. At 5:10pm on 27 Oct 2009, JonB: there's nothing wrong with preferring the PL, there are plenty of great games to watch. There's nothing wrong with enjoying the Liga either. It's much better if you enjoy both - double the fun!
However, as for your response, you lost the plot before you even started. You just though you saw a guy saying the Liga is better and you thought you had to refute it. Try thinking about this:
In the last 10 years the FA Cup has been won by: Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man Utd and Pompey = 5 teams
The Copa del Rey has been won by: Barcelona, Valencia, Mallorca, Espanyol, Zaragoza, Sevilla, Betis, Deportivo= 8 teams.
Ergo, more teams have won the CdR in the last decade than the FA Cup. Clear now?
As for the rest:
If I was answering an earlier post that said poor Liga teams were much worse than poor PL teams, I think the number of points you need to stay up is indeed relevant.
Statistically, poor teams actually do better in Spain, in a league that has topped the UEFA rankings 8 out of the last 10 years.
Goal differences are meaningful because week after week, they indicate on average how much teams win or lose their games by. Over 2 or 4 games you can put it down to coincidence, over 10 seasons and several thousand games, chance gives way to statistics. So the fact that the difference between top and bottom in Spain is not only smaller in terms of points but also in terms of GD is an other indicator that perhaps the teams are NOT so poor.
Top Liga teams losing more games means they face more competition in their league. Again, you can argue that it's because they're worse, but UEFA's numbers and the trophy count doesn't back you up.
Lowly teams winning more games means they are more competitive within their league. How can the fact that a league's top scorer can more easily play for Malaga than for Stoke mean that defences are poorer? You lost me.
It's actually 4 vs 3 League winners in the last 10 years. 25% difference. Not bad if you think people say only 2 teams can win the Liga (though this season I agree it looks that way). Might not be a big difference, but what would you say if they charged you an extra pound for every 3 quid you spent at the supermarket?
Europe: we're talking 10 years, so it's not 12-11? I make it 4-2, plus 3-1 in the UEFA Cup.
Finally, when you came to the last paragraph, which more or less summed up my points, all you could muster is that you didn't get it. I hope you do now.
You'll see none of my facts were made up while none of your statements we're adequately backed up.
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Well, I gave you all a fair warning when I wrote in the first sentence, “West Brom fans, and indeed many others, may be a bit surprised about what they are about to read next...”
I was also ready for plenty of you to disagree with what I've written, and that's definitely your right, but here's some additional information to endorse why I feel that Borja Valero can make the grade as a great midfielder.
Kickoff3pm mentioned that at West Brom, there were “no neat defence splitting passes and never held on to the ball or had a shot worth mentioning.” IMHO He does all these things now.
Gazweer wondered, “What about the collective effort of the whole mallorcan team?”
To be honest, the collective effort of Mallorca on Saturday, at least when they were down to nine men was fantastic, The Spanish newspapers on Sunday were applauding all of them apart from, naturally, the two guys that got sent off. However, it's also fair to say that many pundits focussed on Valero and his fellow midfielder Mario Suarez as the key figures in their remarkable performance.
The Spanish daily sports paper AS produced some statistics on Valero after the Atletico game and he made 36 passes, exactly half of which went to the Mallorca number 9 Pierre Webo and several of which could definitely be called 'neat defence splitting passes'. He also made nine ball-winning tackles.
Mallorca coach Gregorio Manzano clearly knew what Valero was capable of as he started him as soon as he arrived, just ahead of the second week of the season, and Valero responded by scoring on his return.
Manzano has started with him ever since, apart from one week when he was on the bench due to a slight twinge.
Yes, he's still got some way to go, he's not the finished article yet and the likes of Xavi and Iniesta (among others) have made quicker progress from their teenage years but I think that Valero may be on the verge of becoming one of their equals.
An important factor that has perhaps hindered his progress in the last few years is that Valero hasn't always been in the right place at the right time.
As mentioned, he was a successful Spanish under-19 international, which surely indicates that he has got some inherent talent. However, he got squeezed out of Real Madrid in the summer of 2007 when the former president Ramon Calderon cashed in and did a house-clearing exercise of the talented reserves who were on the verge of breaking into the first team.
It's noticeable that he then became an immediate starter the following season at Mallorca.
Slick_Footwork asks a relevant question about why things didn't work out for him at West Brom. “Maybe it was a psychological issue, how else could someone with such accurate passing have such an unaccurate shot? Maybe he was just homesick.”
To be fair, Valero hasn't really addressed these issues yet but Tony Mowbray, to his credit, never criticised him publicly and often lauded his abilities, even if they didn't always show when he was at The Hawthorns.
http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2009/03/19/1163975/west-broms-tony-mowbray-borja-valero-is-top-class
Indeed, Mowbray has even admitted that he was partly at fault for Valero never settling at West Brom.
http://www.expressandstar.com/2009/04/01/valero-is-backed-by-mowbray/
Clearly, whatever the reasons, Valero is much more comfortable in the environment he is now in and may have finally found the place where his talent will prosper.
Like U13844141, I'll be watching the game against Barcelona in two weeks time to see whether he fulfils the promise shown so far this season.
And finally...
Aspers commented “the real next European superstar is Ajax' Luis Suarez.”
A small point of accuracy here, I wrote, “the next great European midfielder.” Luis Suarez is a great player but he's Uruguayan and a striker.
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It's a game - i just didn't get how you can compare the two leagues the way you have - points totals, goal differences, just didn't or doesn't make sense, maybe i am missing the point.
FYI The 12-11 was from the start of the European Cup.
Copa Del Rey - harder to win a league than a cup - bears no resemblance to La Liga and the quality of the league.
On a final note, with Real flashing the cash and Barcelona with their own financial clout, the league will turn further into a two horse race much like the EPL 4 horse race. With Man City getting the cash in, the continued improvement of Spurs and Villa, we may get 7 teams battling out for the big four places, which i'm sure you and all EPL fans will agree will be good for the game.
There are a lot of wrongs in football at the moment and it would be fantastic if there was a salary cap and a draft system pretty much similar to the US sports. The teams maybe a bit more even without going out of business. Better competition, leveller playing field etc. It will never happen until the bottom completely falls out of the game.
We can continue to argue the merits of both leagues and we will never get to the bottom of it, when really we should probably be discussing the best ways to stop clubs going out of business, (Southend fans, i wish all the best).
On the Valero note - if he comes back to the baggies and shows that form then all the best for us.
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A lot of rubbish being spouted here.
The La Liga being worse than the Prem?
FYI, Hull stayed up last season on 37 points. 37 POINTS! How the heck can a team stay up without at least getting a point per game? Just typifies how, bar the top 3, the league really isn't that much. And yes, Man CIty, Spurs Everton and Arsenal are included; Depor, Vilarreal and Sevilla (and even possibly Valencia and Athletico) would quite frankly, pass those Prem sides off the park.
People dismiss La Liga too easily - from top to bottom, each team possesses technical ability and tactical ingenuity in abundance - as we saw in the Champions League final this year, technique and tactics overcome strength and pace quite routinely, displayed by how Iniesta and Xavi ran the United midfield of Anderson, Carrick and Giggs ragged with sublime ease.
Valero is simply another player from La Liga who, if playing for the correct side, such as Spurs or City, would take the Prem by stom - you give Frank Lampard, Modric or Xabi Alonso to West Brom and they would not survive - that West Brom side had not midfield steel, and did not press the opposition as a true attacking team would - Valero was without adequet protection and did not have the insurance of a Mascherano or Palacios to play his game.
Valero possess technique and an eye for the pass of the highest quality, something seen in others such as Valeron, Baraja and De La Pena - all names which would thrive in the Prem, with the correct side.
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Phil's actually serious, here really thinks Valero can become that good. Pretty astonishing. He's a decent player, like Ibagaza was for Mallorca when he was there. But not a top European midfielder, and he's unlikely to ever play in the CL. Just in La Liga the likes of Banega, Granero, Busquets, Javi Martinez are far more talented and will be up there with the best in Europe in a few years time.
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I think there are a lot of players with huge talent who have'nt made the kind of impact they might of. Its nothing unusual. Talent has to be combined with hard work, a strong will to succeed and not just a little luck.
This player clearly did enough to impress the West Brom scouts to sign him, however playing in a fairly weak team fighting to avoid relegation is hardly an ideal environment for nurturing a creative midfield talent.
All of these commentors who say he will never be as good as Xavi or Iniesta have no clue what kind of environment those guys had to build up their confidence and abilities.
I hope you are right Phil, you'll certainly feel pretty good about your scouting skills if he is picked up by Real or Barca and makes the kind of impact your article suggests he might.
(on a related note, I wrote an article on 606, urging Liverpool to sign Abdrei Arshavin about 2 years ago, which received about 50 comments telling me I was a fool, Arshavin was too small, unfit, looked good in Russia but couldnt make an impact in the PL...etc.etc.....)
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Valero came through the Madrid Cantera, which despite the club neglecting their youth players has produced Mata, Granero, and De la red to name but a few, who all left the club and showed their talents elsewhere in Spain immediately.
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lol,
Rafa's 4231..........................what are you on?!!!!! Ur hilarious!!!!
Uv made all of these bold statements about La Liga, without providing one single piece of evidence to back up your argument!
"bar the top 3, the league really isn't that much. And yes, Man CIty, Spurs Everton and Arsenal are included; Depor, Vilarreal and Sevilla (and even possibly Valencia and Athletico) would quite frankly, pass those Prem sides off the park."
Read my previous posts, and please tell me how you intend to argue against this one:
The ONLY subjective way to compare the two leagues is to look at Champions League results in recent years. You can't just say " Depor, Vilarreal and Sevilla (and even possibly Valencia and Athletico) would quite frankly, pass those Prem sides off the park." Just because you say it doesn't make it so!!! lol
If you look at Champions League results, as I pointed out earlier, English teams have beaten the top sides of EVERY top league in Europe on the way to having a finalist in the last 5 years. Villareal, Real, Barca & Athletico have been regularly beaten by England's best during that time, and of course last season Liverpool got the better of Real, Villareal were knocked out by Arsenal and Liverpool topped their group ahead of Ahtletico.
This is the only available evidence from which to judge the merits of the two leagues, but seeing as it doesn't support your argument I guess you wouldn't want to do that would you?!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Are you actually paid to write such material? As a West Brom fan I watched Valero for a season in the English Premier / Carling cup games.
Valero didn't even frustrate me. Frustration appears when a player has the ability but only shows it occasionally. Valero's game consists of absolutely no attacking threat on the opposition goal - he's a supposed attacking midfielder may I add. In any football market you'd expect £4.7m to buy you a player that possesses some form of magic around the box. Valero - slow, lightweight, the most non-direct player I have ever watched. He wouldn’t be dangerous in a kids game. I am all for players who possess technical ability over size/strength but Valero has absolutely no killer instinct on the football pitch. I liken him to watching milk turn. I cannot recall him having a shot.
The next great? He couldn’t lace the boots of Jason Koumas - who in context sits on the bench at Wigan Athletic.
The argument of not suiting the British game does not wash for me here.
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Hi Phil,
As interesting article and one that has obviously got a lot of West Brom fans' juices flowing.
For what it's worth, my opinion is that Valero is a talented player but that, in the main, he not only just struggled to come to terms with the pace and physicality of the Premier League last season but that he struggled to understand what an English football fan wants from the players in the team they support. Ironically, he best performances for us last season came in the latter games when he started to put his foot in more and battle for the ball. Even Tony Mowbray commented on this at the time saying that English fans would rather cheer a commited, tenacious player than a skillful one. I personally think this is only half true; in that Albion or any other english football supporter always wants to see players in their teams that can deliver that killer pass or score great goals but that first of all they must show the grit and determination to win the ball, tackle back and play for the good of the team. You see this all the time in the critism of, mainly, foreign players in the English game, with them being branded lazy and ineffective because that one moment pof brilliance is overshadowed by a lack of overall running and harassing for the ball throughtout the remainder of a match. The most high profile exponent of this currently being Berbatov at Man United, where pundits continue to question why Sir Alex chose to keep him at the club over Tevez and his perceived greater work ethic.
Whilst this remains the same, players in any English division without the ability to show the perceived 110% commitment then they will always be regarded as poorer than those that do.
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Roberto_Mexicano, I didn't by any moment said that Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal are any inferior to Barcelona, Real Madrid, Milan, Inter, Juventus.
The argument that "Forlan didn't make it at Man Utd, so he is shitty" is fail. There are lot of players that failed on England and were considered world-class players on European Competitions and Continental Leagues(Shevchenko?) and players that are a huge success on England and that can't make it on the continent. Rossi is the same, looks very very talented at Villarreal and been playing very well for the Italian national squad. Maybe their best player.
Luis Fabiano is, for me(albeit I'm brazilian so probably I'm biased), the BEST striker in the world at this moment. He can't just stop scoring for Brazil, more than one per game. Man Utd wanted him, Milan wanted him. He is set to move at the end of this season and trust me, he is going to one of the giants.
Senna was so influential in Spain Euro 2008 victory that Martin O'Neill selected him as the best in tournament. Also, Spain couldn't play without him in the Confederations Cup. Very influential, very good. Maybe not as good as Viera. But MASCHERANO? Oh, please.
Modric WAS the hottest property on Europe. Not anymore. A good player, but no, nowhere near Messi or Cristiano.
About the Champions League argument, in fact, I believe that from the top 3 leagues, England is the only one with 4 clubs able to play the Champions League and play well.
I didn't question the strength of the Top Four. I questioned the strength of the rest.
The Champions League, for that matter, is not very important, it represents only the big teams, and those were not the focus of my argument. The focus is not Arsenal, Man Utd, Chelsea and Liverpool. It is Tottenham, Everton, Aston Villa and (more because of the challenger stat of this season) Man City against the likes of Villarreal, Sevilla(now a Champions League club, not 3 years ago), Valencia, Deportivo.
To have a look at these clubs I'd rather look for the UEFA Club.
Last three years, there were 4 different spanish clubs in the semi-finals against NONE from England. 2 spanish victors(Sevilla both times) and a all-spanish final too in the last 4 years.
What does it show? That the OVERALL(new concept, I'm not talking about Man Utd) quality of the league is superior to england. Cause there are MORE teams able to COMPETE for something.
Valencia in Spain didn't finish in the top 4 for two successive seasons, for example. When one of the bigs of england didn't finish in the top 4? Liverpool in 2005? When one the the chasing clubs were able to make one the top four finish in 5th?
That was my point.
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galoucura - have you serious in saying Fabiano is the best striker in the world? dream on mate - He couldn’t lace Drogbas boots. Trust me, if Man td wanted him, they would have him.
I like how you write off teams outside our top 4. Put the teams placed 5th-12th from both Spain and England into a division and over the course of the season the English teams would dominate the Spanish - Squad size alone would allow this. If the games were played week in, week out, Premier teams would be too direct/powerful for the intricate approach of the La Liga teams.
Man City are outside the top 4 - they would more than give a game to your top 4 teams. Villarreal have Rossi - Man city have Tevez, Adebayor, Bellamy and Santa Cruz.
Tottenham have quality all over the pitch. Its not about Modric or one player. The whole team know how to win over the course of a season.
Again, If Spanish teams had to play at Goodison Park week in, week out - they would not come away with much loose change. Simply down to the physicality and the ability to scrape goals.
baggieboy - I understand your point on British fans expecting more than just one moment of brilliance - I would however of been happy with this from Valero just once last season. He posed absolutly no attacking threat whatsoever.
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Galoucura,
First of all, you've shown your Brasilian bias by a) claiming Luis Fabiano to be the best striker in the world at the moment! Yes it's opinions, but how many teams would want him ahead of Torres, Drogba, Villa or Eto'o? Only a Brasilian would place him above them!
b) Your disgust at my suggestion that Macherano was a better holding midfielder than Senna simply shows your dislike of all things Argentinian perhaps? Mascherano is regarded as the best in the world in his position right now, which is why Barcelona want him! Only a fool.......or a Brasilian would question his world class, particularly after having Kaka in his pocket during the 2007 Champions League final.
Also, you try to use the UEFA Cup as a measure of the teams outside the Champions League places in recent years. It's well known that English teams don't take the UEFA Cup seriously, indeed Man City last season with a squad that only finished 10th or 11th in the Premier League and Tottenham under Juande Ramos a couple of years ago are the only sides I can remember fielding their best teams since Middlesborough made the final and lost to Sevilla (they too finished that season mid-table in the Premier League). Bolton, Aston Villa and Tottenham in the past couple of seasons have all fielded reserve teams in the UEFA Cup, instead preferring to concentrate on Premier League survival.
Therefore you can't use the UEFA Cup to compare the leagues, because the English teams by and large are not prioritising that competition, unless of course you want to point out that the Premier League is so tough that the sides that qualify for the UEFA Cup one year are not guarenteed to be successful the following year, even if you have a squad the strength of a Tottenham, Aston Villa or Everton!
Watch some more English football and then tell me if you think the likes of Modric at Tottenham, Arteta at Everton and even Ashley Young at Aston Villa would not be right at home in any top team in Europe. As for Man City, they are as strong as any of the traditional top 4 teams in England now, and could easily compete against any side in Europe, which i'm sure they will do in next season's champions league.
Time will tell, but i'd be happy to bet on Man City progressing further in Europe as England's 4 placed team than Sevilla as Spain's 3rd placed team any day of the week.
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86 - Torres? Drogba? Villa? Eto'o? Better than Luis? Oh. Really? So Villa and Torres were goalscores in the Confederations Cup?
Look at Luis Fabiano record for Brazil in the last matches. Over a goal per match. And that counts playing against the likes of Argentina and Italy.
I really wanted Brazil to meet Spain(the only team I rate better than Brazil at this moment) in the final. But fate meant that they lost, and I really blame Senna absence for that.
Also, if you want to know, Torres and Villa are near(if not equal) to Luis Fabiano in my opinion. But I really rate Luis Fabiano the best striker, alongside Ibrahimovic.
(brada_wba, If Man Utd wanted him they'd have him? Where on hell were you last transfer window? Bids confirmed by both sides, failing to achieve agreement.)
On Mascherano, yes, very good. Perhaps the best player in his position? No, I rate Senna as the best in the moment, if his legs still can be able to produce the quality the 2008 Euro performances. Mascherano is really a special player, world-class, and because his age, I'd rather have him in my team than Senna. If you read Mr.Vickery blog comments as well as Mr.Phil you wouldn't accuse me of hating argentinians. In fact, if Brazil isn't going to win the World Cup, then I'm supporting Argentina. Not only that, I believe that Messi is superior to Kaka and Maradona is superior to Pele. You won't hear any other Brazilian openly admitting it.
No, it's not known for me that english clubs fields reserves on the UEFA Cup. The Aston Villa team (last year I guess) that lost to CSKA Moscow(can't remember if I watched the first or second leg, the one with Vagner Love fantastic goal) was full and complete.
On UEFA Cup qualification, the same effect occurs to Spain, we had Osasuna, R. Sociedad and Betis playing it few years ago, and now fighting against relegation or for promotion in the 2nd-tier. The strength meant that they reached the semi-finals(for Osasuna) and never played it again.
With the Spanish squads being smaller(40 players in England compared to 25 in Spain) I also find it's hard to believe that it's harder to field a good team in England than in Spain, thus leaving England teams to have the priority higher for their domestic games than the Spanish clubs.
Intention is never an argument, results are.
Results that show me that the 4 big clubs in England have indeed dominated the Champions League, it's a fact, I do not question this. And for that matter, the riches of Man City have made the top 4, now top 5. They will go further than Sevilla in Europe. And now we will have one very strong team of england in the Europa League.
Modric, Arteta and Ashley Young are better than most talent available for Villarreal, Valencia, Atletico(specially in crisis) and Sevilla. We agree in this one. But Arteta can't cut in Spain(OK, NOT EVEN RESERVES IF YOU ONLY MENTION XAVI AND INIESTA) and Young can't cut in England. Clearly at home in any top team? No. There's far better talent available. Cazorla and Jesus Navas for Young position, for example.
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Aston Villa team Vs CSKA Moscow, 26/02/09
Aston Villa: Guzan, Luke Young, Davies (Osbourne 84), Knight, Shorey, Albrighton, Gardner, Salifou (Harewood 46), Sidwell, Bannan, Delfouneso.
Subs Not Used: Taylor, Lichaj, Clark, Lowry.
Household names?...
Of course being Brazilian you are likely to have a slight bias but do you honestly believe Fabiano is the best striker in the world? He's not even the best striker at Sevilla. For me, Torres is the most complete striker in the world and Fabiano is nowhere near him. Furthermore, the Confederations cup is not a world cup. It is not a European cup. It is not a Copa America. However, I accept that his scoring rate for Brazil has been superb recently.
The point you made about Ashley Young is ridiculous. He was by far the most consistent left-winger in the prem last season and on that form would have walked in to most teams in Europe with the possibe exceptions of the European big boys (Real, Barca, AC, Inter, Man Utd, Chelsea.) The only reason he couldn't nail down an England place is because Capello chose to play Gerrard (who in my opinion is probably the most complete player in the world and as a consequence versatile) on the left. Ashley Young has struggled this season and Cazorla and the Yellow Submarine seem to be sinking at an alarming rate too.
Arteta is a truely gifted player who unfortunately for him has Fabregas, Xavi Hernandez, Iniesta, Xavi Alonso and Senna to compete with for a place in midfield. My Spanish mates (young and old) tell me that they've never been so spoilt for choice. With such an abundance of
talent, it is hardly surprising that Spain is comfortably the best team in Europe (and probably the world) right now.
For me, I haven't seen enough of Modric though what I have seen I've liked and believe he would hold his own at any of the fringe La Liga clubs i.e Sevilla, Villareal and Valencia.
It must be hard being objective when you have grown up on great players such as Romario, Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos, Kaka, Ronaldinho etc but Fabiano is not in the same bracket as these guys.
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88 - The first-leg. 18/02
Aston Villa: Guzan, Luke Young, Davies, Knight, Shorey, Gardner, Petrov, Barry, Ashley Young, Carew, Agbonlahor.
Subs Not Used: Friedel, Bannan, Salifou, Lowry, Albrighton, Harewood, Delfouneso.
Davies, Knight, Petrov, Barry, Young, Carew, Agbonlahor. Those weren't first-team players? They had an awful draw at home and them gave up for the second-leg.
On Young, yeah, he was pretty good last year. But so was Cazorla. I thought he deserved the Young Player of the Year award last year(I don't remember if he won, but still), but honestly, I didn't see Young as a full-product. Good technically, fast and willingful, but what else? Deadly like Cristiano? Versatile like Cazorla?
Arteta is a good player and I think he would have a place on Sevilla, Villarreal, Valencia, etc, etc, etc. But is he in the same level of Xavi? Xabi Alonso? Iniesta? Nowhere near that.
Modric is also a good player, but I'm still to see the "something special" about him. Perhaps when he come back from injury.
And yes, I can't compare Luis Fabiano to Romario, Ronaldo, Careca, Reinaldo. I can compare him with Dada Maravilha though. And that's a man who was never called "World-Class" but his goalscoring record was superb(3rd brazilian goalscorer of all time if I'm not mistaken), and for a striker, scoring is really THAT important.
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JonB: "On a final note, with Real flashing the cash and Barcelona with their own financial clout, the league will turn further into a two horse race much like the EPL 4 horse race"
You might be surprised, but I fully agree - I think it's a very sorry state of affairs too- and I think we probably agree on more than that.
The only point I was trying to make was that the "poor teams are poorer" assumption is a rather random statement that doesn't stand up to analysis. You'll notice that the user I made the observation to has continued to argue away with other users, but has dismally failed to address that point.
There is indeed a lot of depth in Spanish football -at least in terms of visual quality and what some people controversially call 'good football'- despite the abysmal difference in funds available to Madrid or Barça and the rest (FYG, Madrid's budget is over €400M, while Xerez's is a measly €9M.
I think the point is further driven home by the shock Cup result: however poor Madrid's team against "League One" Alcorcón may have been, every single one was an international. No hoof-ball involved: Alcorcón put the ball on the park and outplayed Madrid for 90 minutes and a 4-0 drubbing.
If anyone saw Barcelona-Cultural Leonesa, they'll have seen another League One team playing a pretty flowing passing game despite the defeat, and playing a very dignified game against the European Champions.
I agree there's much more to football than frilly technique, but I think people who knock the quality of teams they've probably never seen -or seen once or twice- is absurd and is quite far to the truth.
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Thanks for picking up my post http://www.allaboutfcbarcelona.com/2009/04/andres-iniesta-vs-xavi-hernandez.html. I noticed only when I saw a huge surge of traffic from bbc.co.uk. It is indeed an honour.
Varughese (Bibin)
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