Ministerial veto
The decision of the Justice Secretary Jack Straw to use the "ministerial veto" to block the release of the minutes of key cabinet meetings in the run up to the Iraq war is a significant development for freedom of information in the UK.
The Information Tribunal had ordered the government to publish minutes of cabinet meetings of 13 and 17 March 2003 at which the legality of the war was discussed [pdf link]. This followed an earlier decision by the Information Commissioner that the minutes should be published [pdf link].
Both the Tribunal and the Commissioner argued that this is an exceptional case where it would be in the public interest for cabinet minutes to be published, but Jack Straw argued that publication would damage cabinet government.
Straw stressed that this is the first time in the four years since the FOI law came into effect that the ministerial veto has been used, and he maintained that its use would be rare.
But there are concerns among FOI campaigners that this sets a precedent and the veto may become more common (as highlighted on this blog in January). In this context it is interesting to note that the Conservatives backed Straw's decision to use the veto.
In other countries with FOI laws, the ministerial veto has been used with some regularity once first deployed. As noted by the Constitution Unit [pdf link] it has been used most heavily in Australia - 55 vetoes were issued in Australia between 1983 and 1987, and 14 by the Howard government between 1996 and 2007, while in New Zealand the veto was used 14 times in the first four years.
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© 2012~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~27~RS~)
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I don't suppose there will be any Cabinet Minister available to prosecute in 2033.
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The Tories are only agreeing to this so that when their government comes to power (in a year's time), they can hold Labour to agreeing not to investigate any of their potential malpractices. The word "accountability" springs to mind. And should do to in the minds of an opposition properly doing their job.....
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#The Tories are only agreeing to this so that when their government comes to power (in a year's time), they can hold Labour to agreeing not to investigate any of their potential malpractices. The word "accountability" springs to mind. And should do to in the minds of an opposition properly doing their job.....#
The Tories are doing the correct thing as they have been for years in demanding a full enquiry which would allow full disclosure of the vital cabinet minutes commiting our troops to an illegal war.
It is the Labour government that has been in power for 13 years and totally bu**ered up the UK and it is them that should be held to account for all the mistakes and lies.
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Public servants on public time discussing public matters in a public building should expect their efforts to be public.
Just proves that all governments since Walpole have been corrupt.
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It is not the Labour government that should be held to account but the active participants who knowingly went along with an illegal war. Jack Straw was and is one of them. The new catholic six houses Blair another. They have brought immesurable shame on this country and themselves. It seems we have a justice secretary that doesn't know right from wrong, no wonder we are in such a mess.
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"Damaging to cabinet government"...?
Of course it would be damaging to the govt. to let us see what a total sham and farce the whole thing was.
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If it's grey, with whiskers, a long tail and smells like a rat it probably is indeed a rat.
1) How would revealing the information damage cabinet government ? What he means I suspect is that the minutes contain enough he said, she said to damn anybody in the cabinet at the time.
2) Straw by trying to dilute the impact of this ministerial veto by indicating this was a first in four years fools nobody; just a feable attempt to raise yet more smoke and mirrors.
Bring on the enquiry
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What a bunch of charletons, accountable of course not.
Only when it suits their purpose.
Not fit for office cleaning let alone Office
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That was an excellent use of Parliamentary time.
Our cabinet thoughtfully gave us the right to inquire in the decisions of all sorts of people in public life, except the those of the cabinet! Fancy that.
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Oh lets see, would I like all my mistakes kept secret? I think I probably would.
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Freedom of Information is dead.
Democracy is dead.
Fairness and justice are dead.
Words are now trivial.
Action is necessary.
http://www.putpeoplefirst.org.uk/
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Ah yes, the "Freedom Of Information Act When It Suits Us", as is it's full title on the statute books.
One expects no less from such a vile and contemptible person as Straw. Hopefully, he, Blair, Hoon and Brown will all end their days imprisoned as war criminals.
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"2. At 5:43pm on 24 Feb 2009, deschloro wrote:
The Tories are only agreeing to this so that when their government..."
Oh come on, you can do better than that surely! I mean, it must be Thatcher's fault really?
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Why did the government prevaracate for long, allowing time and money to wasted on an issue on which they had already determined the outcome?
This govt has the smell of death about it. Covering up one of the most despicable episodes in recent british history is just another nail in its coffin.
If it really did believe in its mantra of transparent government it would have published the minutes; but then as we all know it has great secrets to hide. The minutes will eventually be published and as they say, "truth will out."
A pity really poor old Jack Straw had to be the one to break the news - The PM and Gordon Brown must have been busy writing off the Royal Mail and giving more money away to the banks. But then, Gordons never around when the preverbiable hits the fan, is he?
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Sigh... Freedom of information indeed! Freedom for the rich, surveillance of the poor.
It doesn't make an iota of difference if labour or conservative are in, both are corrupt as each other, and all are part of the 'old-boy network'. Basically the whole system is broken.
Scrap House of Lords entirely, keep the House of Commons (but only to present arguments to the public) and then let the public vote on EVERYTHING of any public importance. Every citizen can have a buzzer like on 'Who wants to be a millionaire' :-) It would certainly work better than what we have now!
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We all know what Jack Straw has given up for Lent then don't we
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Well done Jack Straw!! Thankfully, you have chosen the best course of action that would do the most damage to your party. I applaud you. Keep up the good work!
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See, there are some people above the law or War Crime Laws to be precise.
Our Justice Secretary does not believe in Justice, not when it affects himself or his mates in the Labour party.
Like our country, our democracy is turning in to a "3rd world" system of governance, phrases like Tin-Pot, Banana Republic & dictatorship comes to mind.
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It only gets worse by the day...unfortunately there are so many days until the next general election.
Or is there some clause somewhere to veto that as well?
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' to protect cabinet goverment'? This is exactly why we need to know the minutes of those crucial meetings. If we want to put this (great) country back together again we need to know how on earth a collection of democratically empowered politcians decided to go to war with Iraq, when almost every other country in the world was telling us there was no legal reason whatsoever for war.
If we let this stand, we will never be able to start mending the huge amount of damage done to our domocracy, our country and Iraq.
When will we finally have the courage to stand up and say we made the worst foreign policy decision this century.
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As touched by another comment earlier both main political parties will back each other on this. The unwritten rule in politics is not to 'queer the pitch' or 'what goes around comes around'.
We really don't need to see the minutes. This just confirms what we know that Blair told a pack of lies and both sides of the house followed him. Still doesn't he look old for it. His comment that God would judge him was in typical Blair fashion vague and meaningless.What did it mean
a.You don't know what you're talking about only God knows the whole truth. (possible)....or
b. Yes I know I've done wrong and God will punish me. (unlikely) ...or
c. God told me to do it. I told him what I wanted to do and he agreed... (more likely)....or
d. I have a narcissistic personality and I'm always right even when I'm wrong.(most likely)
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Why isn't this man standing trial for war crimes and human rights violations. No wonder Gordon Brown is failing, he has held onto the dead wood from Blair and his warmongers. Did anyone actually expect him to sit by idely and see the release of information that would prove their criminal actions regarding iraq?
If he had any sense of justice or honour he would have precluded himself from any thing having to do with an investigation of their actions in Iraq.
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Sadly what else can we expect. They lie, they deceive, they have pay, allowances and pensions like no others in the country and they are totally shameless.
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We can only infer that the government / cabinet has acted illegally and now has the blood of many civilians in Iraq on its hands as well as the blood of many loyal Members of the armed forces who do their duty to queen and country. The entire government should be indicted for war crimes at the Hague unless they can show that the War commenced was legal, This may be the only way to force the release of these meetings minutes assuming they have not been tampered with in the mean time.
Governments must realise the ends do not justify the means we must be able to have moral faith in our Government . No wonder Mr Blair has taken to religion he must be hoping for spiritual absolution and forgiveness on a higher plane
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The whole may be much worse and sinister than the wildest conspiracy theories :-(
More urgent than Irag is whether the minutes will reveal some damning and alarming truth about the roots, causes and some culprits of the current global debts, financial corruptions and economical crisis ???
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I didnt expect anything else tbh,although i was against the war on the information given , this wouldnt have solved anything and would just have kept the ball rolling.....
Nothing short of a full enquiry is required but they will fight tooth and nail not to give that.
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Good stuff. I'm not a Labour man, but I fully believe the Information Tribunal & Commissioner were out of line to use any kind of "public interest" ruiling. There's a 30 year rule on all Cabinet Meeting papers, and that should be adhered to.
For once, I'm commending Jack Straw.
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The hierachy of democracy cracks it whip yet again.
None of us are truly free, yet the people that set the laws for all of us can be as free as they want. Animal Farm anyone?
But I don't care, I am comfortable, it's not as if I love in some poor African country, I don't have the guts or the need to fight this.
Only until a White Knight in shining armour comes along or until the rest of us are offended and taken advantage of to such a degree that we feel the need to take action, will a true revolution occur.
As I said, earlier I am too comfortable at the moment to be bothered about that, so let the Government do as it pleases.
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sorry I meant live in some poor African country, not love.
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When the government talks about ID cards, keeping records of everyone's emails and phone calls, or other things that intrude into our lives, we're told "if you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear".
I wonder why the same principle doesn't apply in this case? Funny, isn't it?
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Secret Squirrel has decided that the public does not deserve to know about decisions behind the worst foreign policy misadventure in British history and HM Opposition sagely nod their heads in agreement. I think the 400 year old British experiment with democracy has obviously been a failure.
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If you've got nothing to hide, Jack, you've got nothing to fear. I'm sure Jacqui Smith would back me up on that.
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I am a member of the british public, and i want to know about are desision to go to(an illegal) war in iraq, how can this not be in my interest???
Imagine if u lost a son, would it be in your interest then!
ohh... and god bless dr kelly
are goverment is corrupt and does not serve it's people.
remember to destroy your ballot card as a protest to this god awful way we are govened
xxxx
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Time for a new Lord Denning who will discover a suitable common law basis for overruling statute and enable the people to know the truth. Of course, these days the government would simply disappear such a character - all backed up by Squire Cameron and "Oik" Osborne.
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War criminals in denial.
Thieves in the bank vault.
Do they really think we don't know?
Time they got the message.
Where's Guy Fawkes when you need him?
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I remember the Government using the phrase "If you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing you fear" about some other issue...
Seems rather pertinent here!
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What cabinet government is he protecting?. Blairs´was a presidential government featuring the man himself and a handfull of generally unelected advisers. This contemptible decision is typical of Straw and typical of the governments we now have to suffer, Labour and Tory alike. For whom does one vote?.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
An appalling decision by an appalling government.
But on the bright side, as the next General Election approached painfully slowly, at least the conservatives have had the decency to let us all know that they are no better!
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Labour trying to hide things us - is that such a shock?
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I'm upset but not surprised at the actions of Straw and the Tory approval. We're seeing similar things here in the USA. Unfortunately, here, we don't have the Lib Dems and others who can honestly say they can hold someone accountable...and get elected.
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Every organised collection of resources and activities has critical information and analytical processes that in the wrong hands could easily lead to its destruction. Preventing full and frank discussions by the Cabinet is silencing the very apparatus of our democracy, the most defining aspect of our society. The ever thus conundrum is the balance of harm to democracy while secrets are kept. We all know thanks to our vigorous press that the real cause of for the Iraq war is likely to be a disingenuous attempt to secure the world’s second largest oil reserves from plunder. However an infinitely more violent civil war would have ravaged the country on the final day of reckoning if Saddam had succumbed to old age, leaving the Middle East without a defining beacon of democracy that encourages the progress of the regions people to a more peaceful, liberated and yes economically secure future. We all know that George Bush’s lack of intelligence lead his judgement to be corrupted by over reliance of trusted advisers hiding behind an imagined wall of “secret intelligence” knowing the agencies responsible are unable to defend themselves, advocating their own agendas as to the well being and policy direction of the USA.
My arguments is that the treatment of Doctor David Kelly and in attempting to destroy and silence the BBC’s correct broadcast that the dossier on Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction possessed a sufficiently large threat to the western world to warrant special action when compared to other countries such as Pakistan, was wrong and did more damage to our nation’s democracy than preventing the release under the freedom of information act in this case. Because the story was incorrectly discredited when in fact Doctor Kelly was a whistle blower, allowed the march to war to become unstoppable and because this lesson has not been learnt the same will happen again (God help the next whistle blower). The media are the gate keepers to democracy; they hold all the keys to the machinery of our society, the armed forces are really risking their lives to protect the infinite strength of a free media, without which our society would surely deteriorate into an unquestionable overarching government and fail. I believe that the spirit of free media remains strong and has not been truly silenced by the freedom of information act veto, we all know what really went on and our voting decisions have and will take that into account when we pass judgement on those responsible.
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Good Morning, Jane,
It is hard not to conclude, and especially so in a time of national/international emergency and/or breakdown/manipulative monetary meltdown, that media was an active/proactive partner in all that has transpired by way of its conspiracy/associative complicity, whether in a bissful ignorance of their broadcasting role or in arrogant and malicious indifference to it, with key players who are given/whose chosen role provides by default, the global stage to present their views as to what is happening [in the world] and what they are going to do about it, which of course, will require the help/action of others who will be effectively "ordered" to carry out their tasks.
It is surely the height of criminal folly and an insult to Intelligent/Ignorant Man for an exact and truthful chronicle of [personal] decisions shared amongst a leading group of talking heads/conspiring-to-be-a-united-dominating-right-and-proper-voice voices, and which create and/or support Wars/Free Fire Rape Kill and Steal Zones, with the convenient cynical protection of a "legal" immunity to act barbarously with impunity, to both expect and stand up before the nation/world and argue the case for such decisions/decision processes/conversation minutes to be subject to Veto/Secrecy, with the added insult of claiming that a harming of democratic process or State Security in their disclosure, would result.
As our view of the world is phormed by what we learn remotely and experience personally and what Media shows and tells us, to not know of how that view has been created is to allow for a false picture to be shown and us all living in a manipulated virtual reality which is not true, with it servering to the personal needs/whims/feeds of those who are broadcasting their views.
To present Unrivalled Transparency and Freedom of Information will Guarantee that such a Perversion and Subversion of Intelligence and State for Personal Use and/or Abuse, does not and cannot Occur to have Us all Living in a Lie and Maliciously Fabricated Reality. And it is surely the Role of Media to ensure such Honesty exists or they too can expect, and quite rightlyso too, to be tarred and feathered with the same brush as paints the rogue peddler/warmonger/lying cheat.
And that is not anything anyone with Intelligence would want to achieve and richly deserve, although in such cases would Intelligence be missing and probably be replaced and described as First Degree, Malice Aforethoughts.
Jack Straw and the Government would be so here accused ... and the BBC has been hereby reasonably requested to carry the Charge into the Public Domain and Virtual Sphere for BroadBandCasting LOUD AND CLEAR, so that the Pantomime at Westminster and which is called Government all over the World, can be held Accountable for their Actions which result in the Reality of our Lives following Paths of Politically Incorrect Choosing to Death and Destruction ...... Booming Busts.
But one is never alone in either adversity or triumph, and such as is requested here is also requested of elsewhere and of others, and who would Play Media Mogul, with the following quoted piece sent to a flagship newspaper being one example, which we can easily check on to see whether Truth and Free Speech has been made Victim of Subjective Moderation and Censure in Support of Continuing Deceit and a Hostage to Secret Terrorist Interests and Imprisonment, for that is what is Peddled by this Government and its Strawman Veto, is it not ......... " "What can one expect from an incompitent government naturealy thier not willing to here thier misstakes in the public domain."
Michael,
It is not mistakes they fear and try to hide from, it is a Catalogue of Crimes which amount to Treason.
Print and be Lauded, Mr Murdoch. England XXXXPects ......
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5799257.ece "
I trust in Global Operating Devices that none of that is ambiguous nor should it be difficult to understand. And should there be any faults or omissions, then please feel free to amend so that no false impressions are given.
Have a nice day.
PS It may be uncomfortable reading but by House Rules, there is nothing submitted which can possibly have any grounds for complaint.
Enough is enough is it not, and the Micky Mouse Charade being Followed/Pimped/Broadcast deserves its Ignominious End so that we can Rebuild Nations on Dreams rather than Soldier on in Nightmares. After all, it is not as if it is not easily fixed with IT and Media and the Truth Leading for a Change you can Believe in.
And if you can't fix it with IT and Media, at least you now know of some who can.
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If they had done nothing wrong you can be sure that the information would have been forthcoming.
Straw and the other people deciding this matter are all implicated, so of course they will be keeping it secret for as long as possible.
This will be remembered in history as a very sad day when the UK Government embarrased itself in front of the whole World.
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If you've nothing to hide you've got nothing to fear. That's how it is for the people with totalitarian minded imbeciles like Straw and co.
The same should apply to parliament. Except they obviously do have something to hide and it's the blood on their hands.
Disgusting.
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Well done Labour ....
Shoot yourself in the foot again ....
How everyone knows that the minutes from the Cabinet meeting have something in them ....
ha ha ha ha
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This shows the true level of commitment to Open Government by both parties - fine for the small stuff...
Unfortunately it only takes one exception to stop a rule being a rule.
The credibility of this Government is the loser here - and I predict that it will come back to haunt them for decades to come.
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Anyone leaking these minutes would be doing a service to the public.
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Perhaps a cabinet minister at the time would like to clarify and clear any impression of flawed decisionmaking. There again, not.
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Mugs at birth and Mugs at death, when will people ever learn. Yeah its democracy but only what they decide. If you truly want goverment scandals forget trying to get this type of truth , just follow the money trail far more amusing. The word hypocrite is how I describe these particular captains of industry..............
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What is the point of Commissioners and Tribunals if ONE MAN with an axe to grind can veto their reccomendations ?
The inference that someone would be severely embarrassed if details were released is obvious-- surely JS doesn't believe that his bleating about serving democracy is going to wash with the electorate?
Let's hope that our "leaders" will now be too embarrased to blather on about freedom of information, it is only free if CENSORSHIP DOES NOT OCCUR.
This is yet more proof, if indeed it was needed, that politicians are so far removed from the real world, away from Westminster Ivory Towers, that freedom of information and even more importantly, freedom of the Press,
which is after all - the only weapon of the common man - is upheld - only by public outrage will anyone listen! --Dream on !!!
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Although I'm appalled at this decision, it has at least helped me in one small way.
I am absolutely clear that, despite having done so at every general election up to 2001, I will not be voting Labour at the next one. But I was having trouble making up my mind whether to vote Tory or LibDem.
Seeing how the Tories have been sickeningly complicit in this disgraceful cover-up, that's helped me make my mind up. Looks like the LibDems will get my vote.
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Jane Ashley:
i think that the minister, jack straw was in the right, when he veto the idea of releasing the minutes of the lead-up to the 2003 iraq war, since it would have led to more problems in the long term....
~Dennis Junior~
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i think that the minister, jack straw was in the right, when he veto the idea of releasing the minutes of the lead-up to the 2003 iraq war, since it would have led to more problems in the long term....
.....................
Problems for who? The only people who will be cast in a bad light is the good old government, covering their sorry ar**s again.
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19. At 7:57pm on 24 Feb 2009, anthonygh wrote:
"It only gets worse by the day...unfortunately there are so many days until the next general election.
Or is there some clause somewhere to veto that as well?"
Clause? No, they've got a whole Act for that - The Civil Contingencies Act 2004 - that lets a minister suspend any Act of parliament.
The best part is, there's no objective test for what constitutes an emergency large enough to justify - a minister simply has to "satisfy himself" that it's justified.
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I seem to remember that Dr David Kelly, who allegedly committed suicide after speaking-out against the Iraq war, (a) would not commit suicide due to his faith; (b) could not commit suicide in that way due to a weak right hand; and (c) could not have killed himself there as no blood was found at the scene. I wonder if there's any mention of this episode in the papers that Jack Straw has retained.
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I'm interested in FoI law, and I've just come across a great new FoI blog launched which covers news, discussions and legal updates. Very easy to read. It can be found at www.foinews.co.uk
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If there's something that people don't wanna go public, it could be that it would be better off that way even if it means to others that they may have something to hide.
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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I keep coming back here and wondering. Where is Open Secret now?
February 28th 2009. Libertys Convention thing.
February 24th 2009 - the last thread posted here.
As I watch the time pass slowly whilst what passes for justice is enacted in Great Britain - this site needs to have thee breath of life fed back into it.
February 24th? About 10 days after I knew Justice was non existent for someone and everything was waiting on the latest wheeze to squeeze a few more months out of someone being dreadfully embarrassed.
Maybe that is why? The Beeb were so ashamed - they packed up their tent and slunk away from here - perhaps?
My half sister wrote about my earlier posts on this site - two or more years ago - and I still have nothing to say except - some people in Great Britain's Animal Farm are more equal than others seemingly.
I still have the Freedom to say that but not much else until the Law can be bothered to stir itself.
Close it down - Open Secrets - like I did on own MySpace - due to lack of enthusiasm.
For "Open Secrets" and Freedom Of Information.
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Well done Jack Straw!! Keep up the good work!
Marco
integratori omega-3
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