- 24 Aug 08, 10:45 AM
I've been watching sport since my dad first dragged me along to watch Leicester City against Fulham in 1974 and if - in the intervening 34 years - I've experienced a more bizarre day in a sports arena than Saturday in the Taekwondo Hall in Beijing then it's temporarily escaped my memory.
I'm not often lost for words, but I was beginning to reach the bottom of the box by the time we left 12 hours after we'd arrived.
If the hour's confusion that surrounded Britain's Sarah Stevenson's unprecedented reinstatement wasn't enough, we then had Cuban heavyweight Angel Matos getting up off the floor after being disqualified and kicking the referee in the head.
Just to put the tin lid on it, there were unsavoury scenes after the men's medal ceremony when Greek supporters fought with security officials in the stands after they tried to throw flags down to Alexandros Nikolaidis. For a while it looked like it might get out of hand as flags were confiscated and water bottles were hurled down on to the mat instead.
Just another ordinary day in the sometimes wild world of taekwondo, you might think. But there are obvious and very serious implications for a sport still convincing many that it's worth a place at the Olympics.
First of all, it simply cannot have any repeat of the judging fiasco that saw Stevenson (fighting in the +67kg) first exiting the Games and then brought back in.
Take the point-scoring process out of the hands of people who too often this week - for whatever reason - appear to have not been up to the job.
The sport needs to perfect the electronic body armour that automatically registers shots as soon as possible. The British team in particular will tell you there are still teething problems with the device, but the current system is clearly outdated.
Four people, who initially missed Stevenson's score in the first place, are unlikely to admit they were wrong when they're called together in the middle of the mat for a very public committee meeting with the referee.
And let's have video replays for contentious decisions. How about coaches having two or three appeals per fight? If the protest is upheld they get the points - if it isn't, their charge gets a penalty. That should ensure they don't waste time lodging spurious appeals.
Just think of the drama we would have had if a video replay watched by everyone in the arena and the millions back at home on TV had decided the Olympic futures of China's big gold medal hope and Stevenson.
It's the 21st century for goodness sake. If Wimbledon, with all its tradition, can embrace Hawk-Eye, then what's stopping taekwondo?
I heard a whisper backstage on Saturday evening that the coaches of every other nation were all set to storm the mat and stage a mass sit-in if the blazers hadn't upheld Britain's appeal. It also seemed this dismay at the quality of the officials wasn't just restricted to the British team this week.
They seemed to understand it's fabulous for a sport like taekwondo to enjoy the worldwide exposure an Olympics brings. With that comes a responsibility though to get things right and display a modicum of integrity.
It's to the sport's enormous credit that it acted rapidly and correctly on Saturday to right the wrongs.
It also makes you wonder what might have happened if GB's Aaron Cook (who missed out on bronze in the 80kg) had benefited from an appeal the night before.
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Comments
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I fully agree that some automated, but accurate, scoring system is required. I'm afraid that I have problems with all 'sports' that rely on the judgement of human beings. We have seen far too many injustices in these games (and not just to GB). Until those are sorted out, I will continue to only get excited bu sports where the winner is clearly and unambiguously faster, higher, stronger, etc.
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There have been huge abuses, and not just in the taekwondo. I was watching the pistol shooting, and the Mongolian woman's pistol broke after her first shot. The winner was Chinese who took the lead after the Mongolian had trouble with her pistol. I'm not saying it was done on purpose, but surely they ought to have redone that contest from scratch or given her an opportunity to fire all five shots from a new pistol. The breakdown cost her her mental confidence and allowed the Chinese to take gold. I did pray to be shown what was going on...perhaps Rogge will open an investigation of his own so that safeguards can be put in place in 2012 and things can be sorted out.
I'm not sure what would happen to Team GB's medal tally if things were sorted out, but I am prepared to see them drop behind Germany or Australia if we could get to the bottom of what has been going on with the Chinese.
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I agree with most of the post and anything with judges will be bias, even in football as we can see week in week out. One thing I am not sure though is the challenge or TV replay as you mention, because it will greatly increase the time that each match is going to take. It may not be a problem to us, but certainly to the organiser and supporters because it is dragged long. So like now, where TKD can have two event per day in the Olympic, it may not even be possible to finish one event per day. In tennis, all the matches are expected to be at least an hour, maybe even 2-3, but in TKD I haven't seen a match more than 15 and certainly making complication will greatly increase the time. I think a new scoring system is the only way to go.
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Nick Mullins is absolutely correct here. As a Korean (who moved to the UK), I was proud to see TKD in the olympics (since 88 I believe) but the overall standard of the judging since the inauguration has been the biggest problem for TKD.
When I first came to the UK (mid 80's) the standard of TKD was pretty much a joke her and around the world. However, since then, the world has caught up with Korea and now, although Korea still sets the bar, many competitors around the world are as equally capable... except the judging. Even when I look at the judging standards in the UK, it is bad amateur at best. The standard at the Olympics is not surprising at all. The Olympics should penalise the WTF and put them on watch as they have let slip such standards. Part of the problem was the rush to get world recognition and get as many foreign judges involved who basically were not up to ther job.
If TKD is to raise the standards of judging, they must raise the overall standard in all TKD competitions. This is from the grass roots level in club competitions. The BTCB are too keen to make money and recruit as many people in TKD as possible. Even if it means they let sub-standard judging and players get away with things. Overall this is bad for the sport. The WTF must get hold of all the associations around the world and... basically kick them all up the ar$e!!!
The electronic protectors have problems and it is not the ultimate solution. The TKD competitors will learn to block away from the protectors and will make the sport more dull. The solution must be the humans who are involved. I would like to see 4 very capable judges, only 2 presses needed for a point, and a referee with power of immediate veto.
If the WTF cannot raise standards, TKD should be suspended from the olympics. And as a Korean that is a hard statement to make.
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Four judges/ 2 presses is sensible.
Video playback/video judging/scrutiny of "unscored" hits is needed to support judges; with coaches allowed 2 maximum challenges to get a video playback.
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I found the whole competition pretty unsavoury. I didn't like the way the fighters claimed points every time their foot went near the opposition.
I did taekwondo for about three years and fought in compeition, but I think the wheels are coming off the discipline as a competitive sport. Most fights were sterile affairs and many of the scoring shots were little more than slaps. Something needs to be done to increase the incentive of landing head kicks. Most taekwondo bouts seem to consist of a risk free approach, with the aim to land one quick kick and then get out of harm's way. This not only creates an unsatisfactory viewing spectacle, but is also completely opposed to showing "indomitable spirit" which is supposed to be the founding spirit of the art.
I fear it is over as an Olympic sport.
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I'd love to see TKD stay, but the scenes that came about were bizarre to say the least. I'm not surprised to hear about the GB appeal, because if it hadn't succeeded where would it have ended?
I think TKD was materially damaged by what happened.
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Full story -
Stevenson's kick was not registered as valid on the mat.
Then GB appealed.
According to the current rule of the game, judges decision on the mat is final. An appeal does not lead to reinstation, although the judges may be punished.
In the back room, the committe led by the Secretary General (who is Chinese) of World Taekwondo Association checked video evidence and decided it was a mistake, and asked Team China for comment. China simply said that a mistake was a mistake and it had to be corrected. Hence an unprecedented reverse decision was made.
Full story.
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In my opinion Taekwondo should be suspended from the Olympic games until it can get its house in order. Too much is being allowed to chance in the area of points scoring and until this is sorted there will always be doubts and controversy. I would like to see a rule that penalises any participant from gesturing to the judges every time they feel they have earned a point. In fact, the sport needs to take human judges out of the loop. For me though, the unsavioury sight of someone who has no self control assaulting a judge is something I would not wish to risk again, even if that means goodbye Taekwondo. You'd NEVER see that in Judo.
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I think it does need to move with the times. Perversely, I think the fact that Stevenson's opponent was Chinese helped her in her appeal because I think the Chinese knew how damaging it would have been had the decision not been overturned. However, the scandal was why the clearest hit ever wasn't awarded? Now, we can say the judges are sometimes unsighted and yes that is sometimes the case but if you look at the video, you see Stevenson thwack her opponent in the face and in the background is one of the judges who had the best seat in the house..I've watched it several times and he doesn't flinch..neither of his thumbs move!!!??
Now, at best this is the worst example of incompetent judging ever seen at the Olympics, at worst there were more sinister things going on.
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I train in Shotokan Karate but have been dismayed by what I've seen this weekend. I know TKD has had a lot of bad press over the years but I was willing to give it a clean slate and let my eyes be the judge.
Any Martial Art must first and foremost place respect, dignity and good etiquette ahead of anything else. But what I saw over the last few days made a mockery of this. Many competitors behaved like spoilt footballers, complaining to the referee, moaning about wrong decisions and petulantly throwing gum shields to the floor. And to top it off that Cuban is a miserable disgrace, I hope the governing bodies of TKD remove his license to train as there is no room for that behavior in any walk of life, never mind in a Martial Art.
Despite never having been involved in TKD, I felt embarrassed and shamed by what I saw. I feel the wider reputation of The Martial Arts have been badly tarnished by the events of the last few days.
Hopefully Karate will learn that such instant widespread exposure can destroy the reputation of a once respected martial art, and stop bidding to have Karate included at future Olympics.
I hope that TWD will be able to recover from the events of the last few days and rebuild it's standing as a noble art.
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I have long been opposed to the current bloated Olympic model, which seems to reward silly minority "sports" with recognition and publicity they're simply not ready for. As such I'd like to register my gratitude to the entire TKD competition for a display of such sloppy, undisciplined violence it would have been better staged in a pub car park at closing time. It's time to relegate TKD to the sporting obscurity it deserves.
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It is interesting to see the debate and I suppose it's good for the sport that there is enough interest to spark a debate. The points raised miss the mark though.
TKD is responsible enough to police itself and to make controversial decisions to safeguard the integrity of the sport. Sarah Stevenson won - the result after appeal was corrected. The Cuban violent criminal and his coach have been banned for life from the sport. Another correct decision.
The key point is to improve the scoring mechanism. My suggestion would not be to place sensors in the hugu but to rig up sensors in the blocking pads. Any scoring points would be counteracted by the blocking sensors. This would cut out a majority of the subjectivity on judging decisions.
Free use of guide dogs for some judges might help too!
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Overall, I believe that TKD did itself an awful lot of credit by reinstating Stevenson. The apparent good grace with which the Chinese delegation accepted this was a sporting joy to behold; far more edifying than the UK Athletics Performance Director moaning about UK athletes being bumped during the relay H/O.
However, the disgraceful behaviousr of one poor TKD player took the focus away from this triumph of sportsmanship.
Maybe look at improving TKD but any sport that can display such corithian spirit against a home nation in the Olympics deserves a place in the Games.
Can we imagine footballers accepting a similar decision with such grace....?
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The problem is that some nations seem to complain about the judging and scoring only when it would benefit them. The situation is abated as well by the commentators who make strange statements who never complain about the scoring when their favoured team is benefitting. It happens in football, boxing, taekwondo etc. The view appears to be that it is ok when we are benefitting. Nonsense!!!!
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majorDruid: I respect your opinion but I'm not persuaded that the ability to display "Corinthian spirit" (ie not being institutionally corrupt) should be the sole determinant of participation in the Olympics. The rules for that noble sport of "Putting a ferret down your trousers" are austere and followed rigidly by all participants. If the Chinese competitor had been unfairly awarded a win despite being bitten repeatedly in the groin by a furious rodent I'm sure the Chinese Ferret Down Trousers Association would accept the reversal with equal good grace. Is putting a ferret down your trousers being considered for inclusion 2012? On reflection, as they're considering Rollerskating at the moment, I don't see why not!
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I'd like to think that sportsmanship and the corinthian spirit were at the core of the decision to re-instate Stevenson. The pessimist in me however, tells me it might have had a tad more to do with several hundred million witnesses to the event and a potential mass protest!!!
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Failing to see Stevenson's kick is one mistake. Changing that decision half an hour later is another. If Chen knew she was 1 point behind, she would have attacked in the last five seconds. OK, there were only five seconds left. But would the officials overturn the results if the mistake took place in the first minute?
I think it is already accepted by the sporting world that the judge's decision is final. Stevenson's case sets a very dangerous precedent, and will expose TKD to endless complaints by athletes when any decision goes against them.
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Whilst the events of the past few days in taekwondo have been unfortunate, there is no need for the public to discredit taekwondo for everything that it is. It is a martial art that is full of history and heritage, culture and tradition whose members are taught the values of respect, dignity and discipline.
With everything, there are always going to be some people who do not act as they are supposed to, but the actions of Angel Mats should not speak for the sport as a whole. Should we ban football because of some of the tackles we see from time to time in matches?
Regarding the refereeing decision, it was no doubt disgraceful. But again, we should not discredit taekwondo and call it "behind the times". How many times do you see bad umpiring decisions in other sports? The quality of the referees should maybe be scrutinised further for future competitions, but I can safely say that situations like this are more of a one off than something that is common.
It is difficult to have an electronic point scoring system in taekwondo. There is much more to it than just whether you make contact. It's as much to do with the control you have when delivering the kick as whether you hit them. And just because you touch them on the face, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a point. It needs to be hit with enough force and control to be a considered a good hit and that is something that is purely subjective. You will get in a complete mess when you start to decide what is the appropriate force to score a point for each part of the body for each weight category and for male and female. The presence of 4 experienced referees should do the trick, but evidently mistakes are sometimes made
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I still go back to the point that the judge with the best view did not flinch when Stevenson hit her clean in the face. His thumbs did not move. You can see it clearly on the video. Does anyone have an explanation as to why that was? Because in such a blatant case, i'm struggling to accept sheer incompetence as an answer.
Furthermore, the other video angle shows the referee next to them as Stevenson hits her clean in the face. He is but 1 metre away and in fact you kinda see his face grimace when she hits her. I can't remember..was he involved in the conflab right at the end? If so, why the hell didn't he say anything? Or is he not allowed? If not then surely that has to change.
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With all due respect to all the posters here (who have written valid points), the underlying root cause of all this is the complete ill-disciplined way Taekwondo has been taught around trhe world.
I have practised TKD since the age of 7 (I am now 40) and as korean I have seem TKD become ruined by much more than what we saw at the Olympics.
Here in the UK and other places I have seen people getting black belts when they clearly are not... and these people the coaches and judges. Simple basics like coundting in Korean, bowing and anger towards the master are common place. This does happen as much in Karate.
The judging we witnessed is a result of the ill-disciplined "rape" of a martial art which has a rich and dignified history...which most players included do not appreciate or even know about.
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Martin, I did not say or infer that 'C S' should be/is the sole determinant etc etc. My point is that a mistake was made and it was rightly rectified when we all expected it to stand. According to the live statement read out in the arena, there is a rule that allows this in TKD.
Compare this attitude to that commonly seen on football pitches reflected in the frankly embarrassing post-mortem by the UK Athletics Perfomance Dir.
As for trouser ferreting, I am sure there are good reasons for incl it the OG, if not least to ensure that Yorkshire gets a mention.......
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I think its worth pointing at that there are 2 forms of Taekwondo. WTF style as seen in the Olympics and ITF style (International Taekwon-do Federation) The ITF style allows strikes to the head with the hands as well as the feet so is much more dynamic to watch.
I'm obviously biased (as an Instructor in the ITF style) and don't wish to criticise a different section to my sport, but I was disappointed at the standard of WTF refereeing in the Olympics as well as the lack of consistency across the board for some of the appeals.
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highlight of the games for me..
someone finally reacted (a cuban too, usually the most disciplined lot in the tournament) to the whole overblown overbloated overofficiated spectacle
some of the judging in all events was appalling especially when an eastern competitor was involved (boxing, gymnastics etc)
i'm suprised at the chinese.. they were simply on a national ego trip.. they made the americans look modest. if we do get to the next one we need to make sure that it is a much more friendly event. and may i suggest get rid of subjective (judged) events.. is this really sport?
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It was apparent to anyone who watched the Taekwondo that it suffered from a lot of inconsistency in the judging and this is bound to reflect upon the sport and the faith (or lack of it) that practitioners are likely to have in the officials and sanctioning bodies.
There is never going to be a perfect system of juding in any sport, but competitors are entitled to the best systems possible and the highest standards of performance from officials. Afterall, the competitors, especially in the Olympics, are competing at the highest levels and if the regulators and judges can't get it right then what hope is there for the players?
The system of scoring in Taekwondo obviously has its flaws and should have been ironed out long before the Olympics. Hopefully there will now be a root and branch review of the rules to prevent a reoccurance in future events.
However, even with a good set of rules, its success depends very much on the standards of the officials who implement them. Although not condoning any unruly outburst by competitors, one can appreciate their frustration when their success is denied by bad judgement and poor decisions.
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Taekwondo is hardly a minority sport - there are ca. 60 million practisioners world wide.
Subjectively judged events are still classfied as sports by the IOC. While this situation obviously isn't ideal, taekwondo should not be judged any more harshly than, say, gymnastics for using this system. For it to work effectively, the judges need to be impartial and competant. While there will always be contraversy surrounding critical decisions, the judging in this case does seem to be somewhat poor in this competition (eg, no thumb movement!).
In Olympic Taekwondo, the centre referee has the power to add on points if he thinks one has been missed by the corner judges. This power is used far too infrequently - centre refs should be encouraged to act on their own judgement. The competance of a centre referee should perhaps be measured on how the 'actual' score of a bout compares to the 'real' score, as judged by an independent panel of international experts. Furthermore, no referee of the same nationality as one of the players should be allowed to officiate.
These games should have showcased Taekwondo. Instead, spectators have largely witnessed conservative, uninspiring stategies. Combined with poor judging, taekwondo's international reputation has perhaps been irreversably damaged by this event.
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At The Seaside
(1)
When I was down beside the sea
A wooden spade they gave to me
To dig the sandy shore.
(2)
The holes were empty like a cup
In every hole the sea camp up,
Till it could come no more.
-----by age of conan
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Some time in the past I was in favor of karate joining the Olympics but now, after seeing what taekondo was become. I am very glad karate has not followed that path.
Taekondo has lost all the beauty of a true martial art and become a dim reflexion of its previous values and goals.
I challenge anybody to show me any fight where the players have used more that 2 different kicks or any punches at all!!!
It has become an empty sport and I hope ... for its own sake it gets taken out of the Olympics permanently.
PS. The cuban practitioner is a disgrace to any kind of sport and I do hope he never gets near another international competition anywhere in the world!
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If one takes part in a sport in which the result is based on subjective appraisal one has to accept that you will get bad decisions and bad judgements. If you don't like this then get out of the sport and go for a sport where your efforts are solely based on your ability.
Not only are subjective sports a cause of problems like that articulated above they are also, by and large, difficult to understand. Unless you play some of these sports it is difficult to work out which of two performances is the better. At least with objective sports there is little difficulty understanding why someone won.
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Taekwondo, when taught and practised correctly, is a very worthwhile pastime and way of life.
There are two sides to Taekwondo the martial art and the sport.
However, there is a definite corrosion of the ideals and tenets of Taekwondo within many schools that just concentrate on the sport.
It is the martial art half of Taekwondo that teaches etiquette, modesty, perseverance, self control and indomitable spirit. Some that train in only the sport miss out on these concepts and ideals.
Sport is about winning and sometimes at all costs.
Practitioners should only be allowed to take part in the sport if they also practise the martial art. However, anything that is being taught is only as good as the practise and quality of the teacher. I have seen and know of many Taekwondo coaches/instructors who have forgotten or never really understood the philosophy of the martial art way.
If any good is to come from what has been witnessed at the Bejiing Olympics is that the WTF (World Taekwondo Federation) seriously address the issues of judging and refereeing and also the education and examination of its sports officials, judges and referees.
The WTF should also have a better structure in place to monitor the membership and qualifications of Taekwondo instructors/coaches and grading examiners.
Sport Taekwondo does have a place in the modern world and in the Olympic Games but it should be promoted as a sport and not as a martial art.
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I agree with mightymike's comment about the denigration of TKD. The competition version of the sport kind of misses the point of trying to better your body and spirit for the good of mankind.
The competitive sport has to look at itself and the conduct of the players starting from the ground up. The most sickening thing for me during the olympics wasn't the Stevenson incident, it was the almost uniform appealing for a point during the competition. This is directly opposed to one of the central tenets of TKD which is modesty and good spirit.
As for the Cuban's excuse of having a broken toe - my heart bleeds for him. I've been training for 3 months with two broken fingers.
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The TKD shown at the Olympics bears no relation to the TKD I practice. Where are the patterns competitions and the breaking? The ITF style of TKd that I practice places emphasis on patterns. In fact I have never competed in a sparring competition!! Even the sparring at the Olympics leaves much to be desired, where are the punches? Well executed combinations of kick and punches are a joy to watch. Also what about the breaking competitions, breaking is a big part of TKD and should be featured. A full competition should consist of a sparring match, a breaking competition and a patterns competition with the medals being awarded to the best over all three disciplines. They can do it in equestrian (3 day event) and athletics (decathlon) so why not showcase the beauty and art that makes up ALL of TaeKwonDo instead of focussing on just one small part of it. time to kick out WTF and allow ITF to run the competition
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Over the years every sport played has technically evolved. 90% of the sport played have some kind of technical expertise involved during scoring or judgement. The same should be the case for taek too.. The world panel can decide upon some kind of a pressure sensor embedded in the head and body gear that would provide automatic scoring on precise contact. How easy would implementing that be when we can detect faults in car travelling at 300mph by touch of a button..!!!
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Scoring in these type of tournaments is always going to be difficult until a comprhensive electronic socring sytem is developed (which will take time as contacts will need to placed around the feet and hands of competitors).
The thing that caused me the most concern was the lack of discipline from the competitors themselves. Sometimes the decision does not go your way, you might not like it, you might feel enraged to your core but you are professional martial artist and you should be able to cope.
As a practitioner of ITF TaeKwon-Do our five tenets are Courtousy, Integrity, Perseverance, Self-Control and Indominatable Spirit. Some of these were woefully lacking across the weekend. I'm not saying that these things don't happen but when the spotlight is on you across the world you have to maintain your composure.
I beleive that TKD has a place at the olympics but if it were broadened out (in a similar way to say, the cycling) and included patterns, sparring, special teachniques and power tests (and team events of similar), not tomention continuous sparring, it would be much more of event than it currently is.
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the main problem with the judging in TKD is that 3 out of the 4 judges have to clearly see a shot land. Depending on angle of view they have there are very few places on the mat where 3 or 4 judges can clearly see a point. The simple solution would be to change te criteria to 2 out of the 4 judges. The rules are way to complicated, for instance if a player such as sarah throws a head shot in the corner which is not in clear view, if 2 judges score a head shot and 2 judges score a body shot then even thouh all 4 judges were agreed a player landed a scoring blow no point would be awarded. The issue at the minute with electronic body armour is that in TKD you can only score points with the hands and feet, but as seen at the recent euro champs in rome, players missing with the foot but landing a knee or in 1 or 2 occasions the calf muscle were scoring points where points should not have been awarded due to the body armours only sensing the impact. And in 1 case that i remember in the final a player fell over, landed on his front and his opponent was given a point, it was taken off but in this case the judges still need to be there to contest these decisions as well as award head shots.
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therefore Electric Body Armours that rely on sensors to detect force are not going to improve the situation with the scoring. 2 out of 4 judges can easily score a more accurate bout.
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ydnab40 suggests that the Olympic Taekwondo version is somehow lacking because it does not include wider aspects such as breaking and patterns.
As I see it the Olympic system under the WTF, is primarily a 'sporting' body which can be seen from how it is set up, and therefore the focus is going to be on sparring elements, as adopted by the IOC.
However, it is interesting to note that the 'Kukkiwon' World Taekwondo Headquarters in Korea regularly holds an international 'Hanmadang' competition which includes all the elements thatydnab40 concludes are missing which unfortunately isn't Olympic recognised and therefore aren't included in the format as seen in the Olympic games.
Mr Hudson has posted that Taekwondo in the UK faces serious problems, and reading his comments it would suggest that the World Body should step in immediately to prevent any further decline. Surely the issues that he raises should be investigated? Perhaps the British Governing Body would like to respond?
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Nigel Hudson has reflected the political situation of TKD around may european countries.
UK sport will not have capability of rectifying the situation. They are about the lose all the successful coaches of these olympics by the sounds of it!
It has to be the WTF... if they don't sort this there will be more and more break away organisation which in the long term will not help Olympic ambitions.
I fear it maybe too late and that being kicked out of the Olympics will help TKD weed out the money grabbing opportunists and leave this great martial art to those who truely believe its beauty.
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I'm following all the comments made and am interested in where this is going. However, the situation in this country at the moment re the NGB is ongoing and am sure that in the fullness of time we will see more positive changes to the way that Taekwondo is governed in this country. People must stand up and have their opinions heard. If members are threatened with disciplinary action for speaking their minds this, in my opinion, is indicative of how the NGB is currently being managed.
I would like to say, however, that Sarah Stevenson has come through all the trials and tribulations of mammoth changes in our sport and its coaching methods in Great Britain, over at least the last six years or so and has stuck to her determination to achieve her Olympic dream. I have known her since she was thirteen years old and have nothing but admiration for her and her Doncaster All Stars coach, Gary Sykes,who have, against great odds, ups and downs presented Great Britain with its first Olympic Taekwondo medal.
CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!
The scoring , refereeing and judging system must of course improve, however ,it does not help the referees and judges, who do a very difficult job under immense pressure when they are being barracked and belittled by all in sundry including the TV commentators Nick Mullins and John Cullen, neither of whom have probably ever refereed or judged at a high level Taekwondo Competition.
The referees and judges can only use the current system and have to uphold the rules they have been trained to follow.
The Swedish referee, Chakir, who was so dreadfully assaulted for carrying out his duties in a professional and dignified way should be applauded for his efficiency. I wish him a speedy recovery and hope that the experience will not deter him from refereeing again.
Taekwondo is a wonderful martial art and sport and has much to offer. Let's get it sorted before the current situation worsens.
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every sport that had human judges involved is bound for controversy. this is so unfortunate. although this time around some countries did exceptionally well at this sports. like china had a lot of medals in diving, gymnastics, even boxing, all involving judges.
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Taekwondo is undoubtedly a wonderful Martial Art, but the differences between the sporting aspects and the Martial Art concepts are a world apart and to try to compare the two is a mistake.
Martial Arts in its pursets form is about competing with oneself whereas sport is about competing against others so the two will always present a conflict of ideology.
Judo has diminished as a Martial Art in favour of sport and it is for Taekwondo to determine which route it wishes to follow.
The Olympics laid bare problems in the sporting aspects and this was to the deteriment of Taekwondo, which will be viewed as a whole (Sport and Martial Art).
To be somewhat critical, I feel that Judge Chakir was too rigid in his enforcement of the rules and could have taken a less firm course of action as was his discretion. Even so, he did not deserve to be attacked in the way that he was.
Perhaps the controversy which has arisen is a good thing in that it will bring to the fore many of the problems now being highlighted and bring about a remedy?
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I think the current Olympics Tae kwon Do should be completely taken out of the Olympics as an event. This event is a complete waste of time as I do not see any skills or techniques involved in this sport. I cannot understand what would compel a person to train for four years for the Olympics, only to spend maybe 20 seconds really fighting. Most of the time, I see the participants of this so-called sports dancing around like chickens in what resembles a Mexican cock fight. The fighters of this sport seem to be hugging each other every few seconds because they do not want to engage in proper combat. If hugging and dancing around in the ring seem to be the goal, perhaps the OIC should introduce ballroom dancing as a replacement for this sorry sport.
I did a search on the internet and the meaning of Tae Kwon Do and this is the translation Tae = kick, Kwon = punch/hand and Do = Art. I think the Olympic version of this sport should be renamed Round House Kick Do as this is the only kick executed by the participants and mentioned by the commentators every time. What happen to the punches, high spinning kicks, combination kick punches and high jump kicks which are the foundation of this very sport?
Furthermore, I understand that Tae Kwon Do Olympics does not necessary represent the best competitors in the world as there are a few equally strong governing bodies in the world of Tae Kwon Do.
Tae Kwon Do goes against the very motto of the Olympic; Swifter, Higher, Stronger. I do not see this sport demonstrating these qualities. Oh well maybe “swifter” round house kicks but not executed properly, “higher” the screams as if being possessed by the devil in a sorry B rate movie, and “stronger” the bouncing around like chickens fighting.
For Olympic Tae Kwon Do to survive as a sport in the long run, the sport needs to reinvent itself. Firstly, the Tae Kwon Do committee in the OIC needs to re-look at the scoring system in the free sparing event. Participants should be encouraged to execute proper techniques and encouraged to use more combination kicks and punches with extra points awarded for difficult executed techniques. Judges should penalize single technique fights such as round house kick through the match.
Secondly, new events such as high kick and distance kicks events should be introduced. For example participants should be competing on how high or how far they can successfully kick a static target over obstacles. This introduction will see improvements of the participants in every Olympics as they will be looking forward to break these height or distance kicking record. Even gymnastics has included the trampoline into its discipline.
Thirdly, OIC should include all Tae Kwon Do governing bodies in order for it to be recognized as a truly global sport. When the gold medal is awarded to a participant, the spectators will know that the person standing on the podium is really the world’s greatest.
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Taekwondo is Korean martial art and IOC is not in charge of Taekwondo and should never be. It is not their responsibility to organise Taekwondo.
The main board WTF is really the only true Taekwondo organisation since it is based in Korea and is the roots to taekwondo. Kukkiwon is the home and nothing will change that.
ITF has a valid claim for recognition with General Choi but the other organisations have NO claim at all.
There have been attempts by the WTF to include ITF atheletes but it is important that only one organisation holds control. Imagine if the IBF, IBO, WBC, WBA et al all had control over amateur boxing... it would be the biggest nightmare and a complete scandalous sham!!
I find it contemptable that there are all these splinter TKD organisation claiming to be valid. If you want your own organisation, make up your own martial art and call it something else because it isn't TKD.
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I think Justin88 has taken an ITF viewpoint owing to his criticism of kicking not being executed properly.
The problem with sport Taekwondo is that it is just what it resembles - a sport. At an elite level like the Olympics competitors in any sport are unlikely to take unecessary chances with more advanced kicks at the expense of losing a point against a faster basic kick, especailly in the finals, which are the bouts normally televised.
Fighters become cautious, moreso when a medal is at stake, and who can blame them?
Does anyone condemn boxing for lacking the excitement and skills of kicking? Much of the boxing was a 'hug and hang on' display. Judo lacked the sparkle of American style wrestling, but does that mean it has no merit in a Martial Arts context.
The Olympic system of sport Taekwondo becomes very much a square peg trying to fit into a round hole if viewed from an oposing perspective. The main string of this blog, I think, was regarding thow the rules and scoring as exhibited in the Olympics were being implemented. I have tried to be subjective in that way.
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I can't help thinking that all this controversy can only be good for Tkd in the long run. It has bought many arguments and problems about judging and how to represent TKd in the olympics out into the open. Let's just pray that some good comes of this and that the many factions in this martial art can all now pull together to oust the rot and unify into a strong worldwide body whether under the WTF, ITF or whatever.
None of these arguments can detract from the outstanding performance that Sarah showed at these games and I look forward to seeing her compete in 2012. Well done to her and her team
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The judgin errors are not just limited to the olympics, it runs from the local competitions in the country. My daughter has often been very disheartned when she loosins a match after she has clearly scored many more points than what has been scored.
It needs to be sorted from grass roots level upwards rather than from the olympics down. Video replays ect will only be used in majour tournaments not in national opens around the country. Therefore how many top quality competititors will we loose as kids that just get fed up with constant bad decisions and scoring. I can name at least 5 or 6 players that have stopped competiting in the last 3 years thinking 'what is the point'. Putting in the work, travelling round the country and internationals only to not get selected for the highest level due to questionable results.
In 2006 nationals I saw a lad from london loose in the semi finals due to a kick that clearly hit him in the leg, the referee said that it could not be contested as the judges had deemed it a valid point.
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I watched the Taekwondo as a student of the Art, I watched with mixed feelings, due to the politics within the sport. this comes not only from NGB, but also from some of the clubs run in our local area. One seems to want to appoint blame onto the other, or they seem to want to grandstand. It was shocking to here that the btcb were touting for business on such a grand stage as the OLYMPICS. This in my opinion has done them as an organization no favours infact just made a mockery of it all to be honest. Not the Place to show up the officals infront of the worlds media. What happened to The Chinese Girl? Was she given the right to complete the 8seconds still remaining in that second round???? Where does this leave our UK Playes at future International Events??? It is Hopeful news to hear that there is infact another Taekwondo Organization (United Kingdom Taekwondo Development Council) that has set up in the UK, I really hope that they do take their own expericences from being members of NGB And turn this wonderful sport of Taekwondo round and make it available to all and not just the chosen few. Let's not forget it's NOT THE FACE THAT COUNTS!!! IT'S THE ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND AND CONTROL. THE ART OF TAEKWONDO. I sincerely hope that this new organization brings in new ideas and safer and fairer practices. I hope they will be able to obtain the same kind of funding as the likes of the B.T.C.B. Afterall it is all about fairness as well. GOOD LUCK TO THEM I SAY.....
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Politics within sports such as Taekwondo, are always going to be soemthing which is detrimental, especially to the practitioners and athletes.
I was noticeable, if not somewhat embarassing, that commentators continually made promotional comments for the Taekwondo NGB, which made it seem like a desperate sales pitch as this didn't happen with regard to other sports. It came across as quite cheap and tacky, and I say that most respectfully, because it was so blatantly obvious and, I would suggest became the butt of quite a number of jokes.
It is also being rumoured, and I do not know if this is correct, that one of Britains's Taekwondo athletes who actually qualified for the Olympics, was not permitted to go and was replaced? Can the NGB clarify?
The USA also appears to be in the grip of a Taekwondo controversy with the questionable result of the Nia Abdullah v Diana Lopez Olympic qualifying bout.
It is very sad that such things should happen and so difficult to understand why it is allowed to happen. - The NGB should be investigated and if necessary have their authority withdrawn.
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Also in relation to jaffas comment on the comentating on BBC, there did seem to be way too much name dropping in regards to the BTCB. I got up a 2 in the morning to watch the 1st days tournament. The 1st bout was a bit slow as most sport TKDist would expect at an olympic stage, not wanting to loose the 1st fight of the whole tournament, Cullens comment to this was, 'it was typical TKD', 'the players will size each other up for most of the 3 rounds and the work in the last 30secs of the 3rd round', 'you can expect to see alot of that over this olympics'. That was after the 1st fight of 4 days of TKD, anyone watching that had no idead what TKD was about would have turned off straight away thinkg what is the point in that.
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people might like to visit this website: http://wesupportnia.blogspot.com/
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In respect of Taekwondokoryo's comments about the Chinese fighter; I understand that the Chinese team acknowledged an injustice had been done to Sarah Stevenson and they requested that she be declared the winner. If this is correct, it shows that stepping down in favour of the right decision was more important than winning a medal unfairly and the Chinese can be highly respected for that.
I have also heard, as Taekwondokoryo points out, that one of the Team GB players was replaced, albeit that he actually won through the Olympic selections. I've been told that action is being pursued in this respect?
It has long been suggested that Britain's best fighters do not necessarily go to the Olympics because of the poor state of Taekwondo politics in the UK.
Is it true that no Taekwondo officials from the UK were included in the Olympics?
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Jaffablog, as neither of us were present, I don't think it's fair to comment on your remarks as to what happened in the meeting behind closed doors, I have heard it was a VERY HEATED CONFONTATIONAL GATHERING behind doors. Yet again point lost. I bring you back to the fact that whilst it was a fair change in the decision, what my point has been is, there was still 5 or 8seconds left in that last round, had the chinese player known, then would she not have gone hell for leather to secure her place in the medals? Yes quite right the behaviour of the host country was remarkable, and maybe the NGB can take a leaf from their book and LEARN from It.
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Hi, Right now I feel like I am stuck between a rock and a hard place.As I too am an Instructor in Taekwondo. I have been the brunt of the actions of many within the NGB, Thankfully those have since left the NGB. I do not think this is the right place for the chairman of uktdc, to try and use this forum to get that new organization mentioned, Afterall the commentator was slated for touting (as Taekwondokoryo)mentioned a few blogs up from here. It comes across as spitting the dummy by this Mr Hudson.(taekwondoneddshelp) I have witnessed Injuries that students have had done to them by other clubs where Instructors actively encourage that level of violence and aggression. Do we need or even want that kind of Taekwondo representing the UK? I do think that it's time for those old disheartened x NGB Instructors to put up or shut up and let the B.T.C.B ALONE TO CLEAR UP HOUSE WITHOUT THEIR INTERVENTION AT EVERY TURN. GROW-UP GUYS.
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I think that comments, like the one 'Kwonman' makes, perhaps demonstrates why many people are angry with the NGB. Instead of directly addressing the issues and the points raised by people who clearly have genuine concerns, replying with defensive posturing actually adds weight to thier arguments rather than disproving them.
If Mr Hudson has left the Taekwondo NGB and taken his expertise elsewhere and seeks to rectify what he perceives as 'injustices' then, as I see it, he has 'put up' as Kwonman challenges him to do in his comments.
NGBs should not bury their heads in the sand or plug their ears when they don't like what is being said about or against them. Surely it is for the NGB to explain its position and actions in order to justify them, afterall they are supposed to be representative of the sport in the UK and presumably are publically funded?
There is a difference between using a global platform to tout for business and using a blog, such as this, to comment on issues that are being raised.
Perhaps Kwonman could address the concerns expressed, rather than batten down the hatches and hope the storm blows over?
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I think kwondoman is maybe missing the points, Its not just the ex NGB instructors that are disheartned. speaking as a current instructor from the BTCB I am allready looking into alternative forms of memberships for my club due to the way the btcb is run. Also the view that being part of the NGB in order to acheive is a little misguided also. I believe Sarah has come from a club that is not a Full member but an associate member club.
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kwonman. My gosh you seem really annoyed with whatever has happened with you. I honestly do not think this is the place to play tit for tat do you? Afterall, all that's needed are plans of action to best help each other within the Martial Art of Taekwondo. Your kind of comments are not needed nor are they helpful. I don't blame Master Hudson for mentioning the UKTDC. Just shows what an awful mess things are in. Good on him just means there is more then one choice to make when it comes to training in Taekwondo. Just because the BTCB is the oldest does not mean they are the best, ha ha think they have proven they are'nt so enough said on that I think. Kwonman take your jibes else where this is not the place for them. just SILLY....
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Kwondoman - I know quite a lot about the situation and have first hand experience of the BTCB and its antics which is why you couldn't pay 'me' to join them.
Your comments and personal attacks are unprofessional and this is not the place for unfounded allegations.
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I think much of this blogs confirms what most of us already know, that the NGN has some serious issues. When the group I was a member of was undemocratically taken in to membership it was a woeful day for many.
Circumstances now see me outside of that body and very active in the UKTDC.
I am led to believe the Australian NGB was recently deregulated or had its funding withdrawn due to it being considered not fit for purpose. The Australian Olympic authority took direct control of its team. The views of people posting here appear to lend some credence to some probability that our own NGB could be travelling down the very same path.
As for the judging situation at the Olympics I admit that it seriously needs addressing but the WTF have been working to produce Electronic body armour. I have always advocated that the use of Cameras is paramount at World and Olympic events and this may be part of the eventual solution. As for electronic body armour; would that have scored Sarah's kick on Chen Zhongs face? I think not as it was the sole of her foot on her opponents face and you can not cover those parts with electronics. It may be a case of EBA, better judging and cameras that are a soultion for high level events.
I think all sections need to take some degree of responsibility for the way things are, from the WTF, the judges, the NGB's and the fighters. The etiquette of some fighters and coaches was very poor and this may be down to a win at all costs attitude.
I thought the fighting was quite spectacular and not boring as some would portray but Taekwondo needs to put the 'Do' back in to it with a complete overhaul in national governance. With London hosting the Games in 2012 we need to pick up the torch now for Taekwondo or the problems of the Manchester selections will pale in insignificance to those that are likely to occur.
Chris Davies 6th Dan
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I would like to ask a question if you don't mind, not meaning to anger anyone either so will apologise in advance okay? northeastboi said in here that Sarah comes from an "associate member club."
All that really means is that those students not wishing to take part in events on an International or National level run by the B.T.C.B,can register with another club, those students like Sarah that want to participate will still have to pay membership fees to the B.T.C.B, So really all that has been created is a two tier system is that not correct? If this is so then do you not think it unfair, and maybe it's time that this B.T.C.B relinqishes control and allows the UKTDC to attend International and National events under it's own banner?
Sorry for these questions if it causes offence just not sure what northeastboi means by associate member club. Apart from this, I think this blog is a healthy way inwhich to discuss the issues within Taekwondo, as we are hosting the 2012 Games. It would be grand to have ironed out the problems before then don't you think. well anyway all the best to this new Organization good luck, but by all accounts it seems like luck is not what Mr Hudson lacks as he seems like he knows his stuff. Hope to hear more of you in the near future.
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Chris Davies, thank-you for answering my question. Sounds all a bit double standard to be honest and not on your part, but on the part of the btcb. Based on your response then it's high time this Organization is Investigated. I have just started my Taekwondo and honestly kwondoman sounds like an Instructor that I think I know but can't be sure as he is hiding behind a nick name.
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It is very clear and evident that apart from posting by kwondoman, who has clearly missed all points raised, That a huge majority of comments seem to have a similar thread and that is that the current NGB are failing miserably.
Taekwondo not only needs a new lease of life but it needs governmental and WTF intervention ,
The UKTDC have requested that UK Sport help them put policies into place that would be conducent to good governing practice.
For the record as there have been a few mention it, it is correct that the NGB had no referee at the Olympics, also Tyrone Robinson qualified a place for the Olympics at the European selection event and yes indeed for reasons only known to the selectors he was not eventually selected.
It should be clarified though, that a place is qualified at a selection event not a person.
On another topic a decision was reversed after an appeal so this precedent was already in existence
The NGB are conspicuous by thier absence on this blog , why they have not reputed the claims of several is beyond me, guess its bury our heads in the sand time AGAIN
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OMG! Talk about name dropping all that is mentioned is uktdc and it seems like the above blogs come from member staff or member students from this Organization. This is not the place to wage a one sided battle. I sincerely wish that the issues that have been raised here can be addressed in a more suitable place then in blog form, afterall it really defeats the issues that are apparent. No doubt this blog will be set upon as negative, which if it is percieved as such then ask yourselves why that is. Cause as this all reads it's really a new Organization attacking the Old, but when you were all members within this B.T.C.B Then all was rosey because if it was'nt then you would have all left long before you did. wHAT IS BEING SAID HERE SEEMS AN ATTACK AFTER THE FACT. MAYBE STAYING IN FOR THE LONG HAUL AND ENSURING THAT THE ISSUES CAN BE SORTED OUT INHOUSE WOULD HAVE BEEN A BETTER WAY TO ENSURE THE SPORT IN THE LONG TERM. NO DISRESPECT IS MEANT HERE, I DO NOT HAVE ANY DEALINGS WITH THE SPORT AND FELT LIKE THE UK WAS LET DOWN BY THE BEHAVIOUR OF SOME.
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As a matter of record for todaydreamer1, I did leave the BTCB 'years' ago and it certainly wasn't rosey when I was in it, and it certainly isn't rosey now. If anything it has deteriorated into an abyss and I remain outside and independent.
Yes it means that my members can't compete at official WTF events in the UK, but that I feel is a better price to pay than being part of an NGB that is simply not up to the job and offers no real benefits.
I can do without all the hassle and teaching Taekwondo without unreasonable restrictions is better than being a 'dancing dog'.
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This thread has gone a little off topic. The failings of the British Taekwondo Control Board (BTCB) merit discussion, particularly when you consider the £2.2 million investment by UK Sport over 2006-09, and their monopolistic interpretation of their remit; perhaps you should take it over to http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/606/default.stm
The quality of the officiating at the Olympics is a far more interesting topic to continue!
The best that can be said is that the officials were merely incompetent, rather than under suspicion of outright dishonesty as with some of the boxing judges. Anyone with even passing knowledge of taekwondo could see that both the scoring and the application of penalties were inconsistent. Even more unfathomable were some of the results that went to a ‘superiority’ decision (i.e. when a match is tied after the sudden death round and left to the arbitrary decision of the officials).
The quality of the officials is the first and foremost factor that must be addressed. The players and spectators were all let down. My disappointment grew from the first day, and by the last, I was not half as amazed as I should have been to see the reversal of a decision half an hour after a contest, or even the despicable attack of an official by the frustrated Cuban.
So, are these officials a group of egomaniacs who crawl to the top of the pile of their respective national associations and volunteer themselves, with little knowledge and even less capacity to learn? Or are they experts in taekwondo, selected on merit and rigorously tested to see that they are fair and highly accurate?
How does the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) intend to insure that the quality of the officials is improved by an order of magnitude in future WTF events? Post event press conferences about the introduction of automated electronic scoring systems by 2012 smack of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted (bolted but stopping briefly to embarrass you in front of an audience of billions).
These automated systems have been in development since 1982 and they are still not reliable enough. Was it rash to claim this technology would be ready by 2012 regardless? With these systems you require the referee to manage the match, make the usual deductions, count headshots and also remove points ‘detected’ by collisions, falls, etc. For all the technological innovations that can and hopefully will improve taekwondo, there will not be a substitute for highly capable officials.
There’s my 2 cents. I hope the WTF will consider carefully how they are selecting and training their officials.
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I think that original_name has described things most eloquently. Well said!
It was obvious to anyone who watched Taekwondo in the Olympics that the scoring and judging were inconsistent if not farcical at times. One Dominican fighter was far superior to his Mexican opponent but the judges gave the superiority decision in favour of the Mexican - I don't know what fight they were watching, but it wasn't the one I was. The BBC reporter was equally as confused over how the judges reached their decision.
Competitors weren't only fighting their opponents, but often the judges and an inept system as well.
There is never going to be a perfect system but I don't think that electronic scoring is the answer. I think it was first tried in fencing some years ago and as I recall there were issues over interference and misuse of it back then.
First and foremost, competitors must have faith in the officials who are going to administer any system, electronic or otherwise, so they must be the primary concern.
Some of the Boxing decisions defied belief and if heads don't role in both Boxing and Taekwondo then i'd be very suprised.
It turns out that wrestler, Ara Abrahamian of Sweden who threw his Bronze Medal down in disgust and was later stripped of it was actually right in his complaint, a sports court of arbitration later ruled. He was denied the right of a video review when he complained that penalties were being added after the bout had ended and which cost him the match. Apparently the governing body didn't even turn up at a hearing. It was described as a violation of the Olympic Charter and the governing body's own rules about fair play.
I think the Beijing Olympics will be remembered primarily for the wonderful scenes of the opening and closing ceremonies and the appalling decisions in various sporting disciplines.
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73. At 11:08pm on 30 Aug 2008, jaffablog wrote:
I think the Beijing Olympics will be remembered primarily for the wonderful scenes of the opening and closing ceremonies and the appalling decisions in various sporting disciplines.
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I think the Beijing Olympics will be remembered primarily for the wonderful scenes of the opening and closing ceremonies and the great achievements of Phelps and Bolt.
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On this occasion I have had to think long and hard about whether or not to comment on a blog that was quiet justifiably REMOVED from this page. I too agree that the THREAD had been lost and it was resembling a scrap at the school dinner break. The whistleblower, was rather intimidating and extremely angry and by all account unable to get his or her point across without his/her level of aggression. This is what was evident at the Olympics fools with anger management issues. I would like to point out that all in here have the right to anonymity, no-one has the right to call them out (Chris Davies), but then to further say that you all know who he or she is, is so archaic. Remembering all the while that Assumptions are the mother of all **** Ups. That sort of posturing and
is not what is needed here.From another of the blogs it is said the btcb has been asked to comment,this will be seen as taking their side but I take my hat off to them for not becoming embroiled in what would only been a witch hunt. As there are those in here that have already tried, found them guilty and would be their executioners. All too sorded and rather Draconian in nature FOR ME. Please now do not set about making false claims as to knowing who I am, I am who I am and you do not know me.Can I bring this back to what it should be about and that's TAEKWONDO and not Personal Grievances about an Organization that has to date not become involved in this. After all they do have a Bronze Medalist on their books. WELL DONE TO THEM FOR THAT, AND MAINLY WELL DONE TO SARAH FOR GRITTING HER TEETH AMONST THE MELAY THAT WAS THE CORNER JUDGING. GOOD ON HER I SAY." EXCELLENT."
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For Lost lostjustasking: I agree that this blog has gon a little off track but I would like to comment one of your previous posts.
Chris Davies, thank-you for answering my question. Sounds all a bit double standard to be honest and not on your part, but on the part of the btcb. Based on your response then it's high time this Organization is Investigated. I have just started my Taekwondo and honestly kwondoman sounds like an Instructor that I think I know but can't be sure as he is hiding behind a nick name.
I did not say I knew who kwondoman was, that was whistleblower, but you state in your previous post that you also thought you knew who kwondoman is. To be honest I did not find whistleblowers posting to be agressive or intimidating and I am at a loss as to why you would think this. Whistleblower may have breeched blog rules, therefore the posting was removed.
In your previous post you quoted double standards of the BTCB and suggested they be investigated, now you take your hat off to them.
I am somewhat confused by your train of thought as your posts seem to have conflicting lines.
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Yes I acknowledged your response and said thank-you. It's the polite thing to do don't you think? Yes I did say that the Organisation ought to be Investigated. No conflict there. Please re-read my earlier blog it clearly says why I take my hat off to them in that action of not being draw into this arena.Yes Kwondoman sounds like most Instructors that have had dealings with the NGB.Yes it sounded like many Instructors. Sorry at no time did I give names. Maybe based on that those in here jumped to conclusions and 2+2=5. My train of thoughts fine thank-you, maybe take a few moments to re-read the blog. NOW ON YOUR REMARK "I did not say I knew who kwondoman was" AGAIN I SUGGEST YOU RE-READ MY BLOG BECAUSE I NEVER SAID YOU DID SAY THAT.
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In response to lostjustAsking, I have read the blog to which Regiment refers and you said (Quote) "honestly kwondoman sounds like an Instructor that I think I know but can't be sure as he is hiding behind a nick name. " (unquote)
When challenged on this by Regiment you now say that this sounds like 'most' instructors that you have had dealings with and yet you previously stated that (Quote) "I have just started my Taekwondo." (unquote).
How many instructors have you had having only just started Taekwondo??? C'mon.........
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Just had someone e-mail me what was said in the blog by the whistleblower, which is being referred to.
As for intimidating - How? I don't see any aggression or anger in what was said and if that was aggressive i'm a feather duster!
Your comments seem more angry than the ones made by the whistleblower. What's 'your' point?
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Right Simply had enough of this why are you people trying to set upon people that comment in here???? jaffa if you are going to quote at least quote it as it is. don't you join the dots. read below the actual blog
At 11:36am on 30 Aug 2008, lostjustAsking wrote:
Chris Davies, thank-you for answering my question. Sounds all a bit double standard to be honest and not on your part, but on the part of the btcb. Based on your response then it's high time this Organization is Investigated. I have just started my Taekwondo and honestly kwondoman sounds like an Instructor that I think I know but can't be sure as he is hiding behind a nick name.
for those in here where does it say
In response to lostjustAsking, I have read the blog to which Regiment refers and you said (Quote) "honestly kwondoman sounds like an Instructor that I think I know but can't be sure as he is hiding behind a nick name. " (unquote)When challenged on this by Regiment you now say that this sounds like 'most' instructors that you have had dealings with and yet you previously stated that (Quote) "I have just started my Taekwondo." (unquote).
where have i said that I have had more then one Instructor, It is very true I have just started out in teakwondo and whether or not you choose to take that as fact is neither here nor there. OF course you are not going to think that blog that was removed was aggressive, I think it was and obviously so did the mediators, so rather then attack me with your insecurities I suggest you deal with the taekwondo problems instead of assuming or trying to make out like I am the liar hiding behind a name. Mine are not angry they are still here in listed, so try and pick on some-one that will run and hide. This does not bode well for this New Organization, your fumbled attempts to pick at what I have said and turn it to your own interpretation for what ends is beyond me. Little wonder the club I attend is and Independent club if this is what one would have to put up. I on the other hand don't have to put up with this kind of behavior, and I wont so do have fun in your play-pen boys. Will just watch what happens along with the many that will only just sit by and watch, because as things go, you have not helped the issues by this continual onslaught of myself.
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Jaffablog Again turning things round to make them sound like you need them to why is that? Are you trying to score BROWNIE points?????
When challenged on this by Regiment you now say that this sounds like 'most' instructors that you have had dealings with. I never said that!!! You added in your own word to make it sound out of context, that's how arguments start .I would suggest you read slower that way you can read what is in fact factual. WHAT I DID ACTUALLY SAY WAS---->Yes Kwondoman sounds like most Instructors that have had dealings with the NGB.Yes it sounded like many Instructors. this REMARK WAS MADE BY WHAT i HAD READ WITHIN THESE BLOGS nothing else was meant by this remark after all we are on a blog
Yes there are a number of you in here that are Angry at the way you have been treated is this not so??? You are voicing your concerns is that not so?????? so what's wrong with this statement???? Or is it that maybe there is something else underlying your responses that others in here are not aware of???? I meant only that you as Instructors seem Angry at the goings on at higher levels. Not back tracking because it's here for all to see, that you are all really ANGRY and disgusted at your own treatment as Individuals, don't then set about some-one that is in an objective seat and can see just how much you all dislike th NGB. Yes my Own Instructor rants and raves about what has also been said in here so I said I thought it was some-one I know, but since you all rant and rave about the injustices, then true you all sound the same is that not fair to say????
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lostjustAsking. The reason that I am addressing your comments is that this is a blogg which you have posted on and made certain comments which are bound to draw a response.
You have responded to other peoples comments with your critique so please do not be offended when your comments come under scrutiny.
If you want to play on precide words..OK:-
So let's look at your comments: 11:36am on 30 Aug 2008 you stated: "I have just started my Taekwondo and honestly kwondoman sounds like an Instructor that I think I know but can't be sure as he is hiding behind a nick name."
You said 'an' instructor - not 'most' as you later suggest At 2:47pm on 31 Aug 2008.
You later go on to say: "I would like to point out that all in here have the right to anonymity, no-one has the right to call them out (Chris Davies), but then to further say that you all know who he or she is, is so archaic" As Chris Davies seems to have provided his own identity freely, I take it you are refering to the post by the whisltle blower who says that he thinks he knows who it is? 'If' that is the case, then it contradicts your own comments of saying "it sound slike an instructor that I think I know.."
Moving on to a later blog, you say:
"Yes Kwondoman sounds like most Instructors that have had dealings with the NGB.Yes it sounded like many Instructors. Sorry at no time did I give names."
As someone who has, by their own admission, just started Taekwondo, that is one hell of an assumption to make about 'most' instructors??? Your own advice on making assumption was: "Remembering all the while that assumptions are the mother of all **** Ups. That sort of posturing and is not what is needed here."
You also 'assume' the reasons why the blog posted by whistleblower was removed. I've looked at the house rules and it can be one of many reasons and not the ones you seem to infer. As an independent, I saw no anger, intimidation or otherwise in whistleblowers blog: that is only your suggestion and does not mean it is a view shared by the moderators.
Why do you make a further assumption in saying; "Of course you are not going to think that blog that was removed was aggressive." Why say 'of course'? The fact that I do not share your views and have posted fair and reasonable critique of your comments in the way you have mine seems to offend you?
I'm not picking on anyone, i'm just picking up on points and comments in exactly the same way you have, and as much as I respect your right to comment and question, please respect mine.
My so-called 'fumbled attempts' to pick at what you have said, is because you have posted on this blog and made certain comments which appear contradictory.
When challenged on the comments, which you have been so keen to make, you become hostile - more hostile, I perceive, than those you accuse of aggression and intimidation.
You accuse responders to your comments of not helping the issue... why; because they don't agree with you and have said so?
As a self-confested starter to Taekwondo you seem to have an assumed insight and understanding equal to those who have been practicing and politicking the art/sport for years. It doesn't add up????
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You may nit pick at my comments all you wish, I have no issues about that so if in fact you are accusing me of assuming I do claim that within this latest blog from jaffa blog as assuming far to much,stop with the personal attacks.This is going no-where and is rather a futile attempt I might add to make me reveal myself. I will once again reiterate that I Have only begin my Taekwondo and if as you claim
I seem to have an assumed insight and understanding equal to those who have been practicing and politicking the art/sport for years.
Then I return by saying if as a new student and I have a grasp on the issues then maybe you all have spent far to much time arguing amongst yourselves and have missed the ISSUES like you seem to have in here. Get back to why the UKTDC was set up, instead of wasting my time and yours by posting blogs that are rather defensive in nature of the responses. Would you have felt better if I was a student of many years training? would that give me better standing? Just an altogether unhelpful view at a posting already made. I explained MY BLOGS AND STILL YOU CONTINUE. CHANGE THE PAGE IT'S A NEW DAY MOVE WITH THE TIMES. And if you are going to put remarks on something like a blog then you must take all remarks even those you do not agree with or like , what you ought not to do is what you are clearly doing now. Badgering an Individual for making comments. And insinuating that I am something more then what I have clearly stated a beginner in Taekwondo.Ifmy comments ae too hard for you to understan then I really do suggest that you skip past them.I WILL COMMENT ON WHAT I HAVE AN OPINION ON IT'S MY RIGHT!!!!!!! If I am getting to you then must be hitting a nerve....
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There you go again... accusing people of being rather defensive in nature whilst responding likewise and accusing people of nitpicking????
The process here is that if you post a blog offering a comment, observation or statement, you're likely to be asked to qualify it, moreso if a comment is offered as representative of others.
I, and others, have picked up on comments which you have posted that are inconsistent and we have subsiquently responded to you through the same forum.
On the one hand you accuse others of making assumptions and on the other hand, when the same is said of you, you regard it as a 'personal attack' and a futile attempt to make you reveal yourself???
You are keen to make out that you have a grasp of the issues; but what issues do you want us to be aware of, that you have such a newly aquired grasp of? It's a fair question.
You have NOT explained your Blog - you posted comments on this blog and put forward information inferring it to be true and, as you will see from my previous Blog, I contested those comments and assertions. Others can determine if you have satisfactorily explained. I feel you haven't.
You certainly aren't getting to me or hitting any nerves on my part; I'm not the one expressing my opinions in BIG BOLD LETTERS and lots of EXCLAMATION MARKS (!!!) to get my point across??
I have an opinion which I have expressed regarding the NGB and I wish the UKTDC every success.
If you have an opinion then by all means express it - i've got no problems with that. But don't be so offended if others do the same and disagree with you.
I offer you your own advice; "And if you are going to put remarks on something like a blog then you must take all remarks even those you do not agree with or like."
Why couldn't you couldn't follow your own advice with whistleblower? Before you answer, please ensure that if you refer to the removal of that persons blog, it is for the reasons of the moderators and not your own assumptions.
Now, if we can return to some good debate....
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SHOCKING. what absolute rubbish.
Such Remarks have no base for being considered of worth. Most hide behind pseudonyms and use them for their own personal agendas.
I have no desire to enter into any petty arguments with people who have long held personal vendetta’s against The B.T.C.B.
The work goes on to help it's members in all aspects of Taekwondo.
I , can only offer advice to "lostjustasking" To discontinue his/her attempts as it's clear your point of view will not be considered as a fair of just remark. Instead it is as you rightly say (nit picked) being picked apart and reworded to their own justification. I would treat them with the contempt they deserve as poor retorts to valid points.
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2muchtesterone - that's your 'pseudonym' I presume. Everyone, other than those who openly identify themselves on this blog are hiding behind a pseudonym. You accuse 'most' of hiding behind them for their own personal agendas as though they are doing something wrong?
How can you make such an assumption about 'most' people in that manner? That's doing exactly what lostjustasking has criticised??? That then becomes a personal attack. Can't have it both ways i'm afraid.
What remarks do you refer to that have no base for being considered of worth? Please feel free to point out what you are referring to.
I have no personal 'vendetta' against the BTCB - that's your (incorrect) assumption if your comments are targetted at me.
It just reinforces the point i'm making: - people are commenting as though their posts are representative of others for the reasons explained by the blogger. If you are going to make a comment, give it as your own view, not say 'most' or 'many' etc, as an inclusive of other peoples intent.
I haven't 'reworded' anything for my own justification - please show me where this has been done. I have used 'Quotes' where applicable and merely asked for unquantified comments to be clarified. If that is contemptable, then the search for the truth must be beneath contempt?
By all means defend the BTCB, that's what some people have been asking for here, comments from their side, but you can't start prejuding peoples personal intent or values as if you know them as a point of fact.
Valid points can be valid points from all perspectives, I don't think anyone is arguing about that, but it seems that 'some' people (not 'all', 'many' or 'most'), whilst seeking to criticise others for their views are not so happy to have their own arguments used on them?
I hope that the vast majority will see the validity of this point??? I make no assumptions!
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There you go again... accusing people of being rather defensive in nature whilst responding likewise and accusing people of nitpicking???? (JAFFABLOG)
[my responses]
[You are really the one continuing this gosh alright already I get that you like the words ASSUMPTION/ASSUMING. Turn the page, there are far more words in the dictionary. Or is it that you have an affinity with those word ?]
The process here is that if you post a blog offering a comment, observation or statement, you're likely to be asked to qualify it, more so if a comment is offered as representative of others.(JAFFA)
[MY RESPONSE]
[Oh yes I am sure that I already said that in a blog all you have done is rephrased it added words and put it in your blog. dancing dog springs to mind mmmmm.]
I, and others, have picked up on comments which you have posted that are inconsistent and we have subsiquently responded to you through the same forum.
[my response]
[Inconsistent to you and your little group only because it's what you NEED them to be.]
On the one hand you accuse others of making assumptions and on the other hand, when the same is said of you, you regard it as a 'personal attack' and a futile attempt to make you reveal yourself???
You are keen to make out that you have a grasp of the issues;
[My Response]
[mmmm was it not you claiming that I knew more then a beginner? losing your train of thought here ha ha]
but what issues do you want us to be aware of, that you have such a newly aquired grasp of? It's a fair question.
[My Response]
[You a bit off track makes no sense oh yeah forgot to you and your group it makes sense OK for those of us less fortunate to be blessed with such group awareness do please tell.]
You have NOT explained your Blog - you posted comments on this blog and put forward information inferring it to be true and, as you will see from my previous Blog, I contested those comments and assertions. Others can determine if you have satisfactorily explained. I feel you haven't.
[My Response]
[Yet in this blog they are infamous in their absence OK.*yawns*]
You certainly aren't getting to me or hitting any nerves on my part; I'm not the one expressing my opinions in BIG BOLD LETTERS and lots of EXCLAMATION MARKS (!!!) to get my point across??
[My Response]
[MAYBE THERE'S THE NEED TO IN THIS CASE AS YOU SEEM HELL BENT AT PROVING WITHOUT DOUBT THAT ON ONE HAND I KNOW MORE THEN I OUGHT TO. THEN ON THE OTHER BY YOUR BLOG AND THAT OF YOUR FRIEND I KNOW NOTHING. IT'S MY OPINION AND I AM ENTITLED TO IT ARE YOU AND YOUR GROUP NOT ALSO GIVING YOUR OPINIONS?????SEE NEXT PARAGRAPH.. OH DEAR SHOT YOURSELF IN THE FOOT THERE BY ALL ACCOUNTS YOUR OPINION AND THAT OF YOUR GROUP ARE ALL THAT MATTERS, IT'S NOT A DICTATORSHIP YET]
I have an opinion which I have expressed regarding the NGB and I wish the UKTDC every success.
If you have an opinion then by all means express it - i've got no problems with that. But don't be so offended if others do the same and disagree with you.
[My Response]
[Disagree all you want I have said that. but you do have a knack at wording things in an argumentative manner.]
I offer you your own advice; "And if you are going to put remarks on something like a blog then you must take all remarks even those you do not agree with or like."
[My Response]
[Oh dear AGAIN HERE... Okay youre either typing this in a hurry or you are forgetting things .]
Why couldn't you couldn't follow your own advice with whistleblower? Before you answer, please ensure that if you refer to the removal of that persons blog, it is for the reasons of the moderators and not your own assumptions.
[My Response]
[Oh would you just take a breathe! I interpreted why I thought that blog had been removed it's different from assuming. therefore yet again you change it to SHOWBOAT. For some strange reason you keep doing this changing comments to fit you, so to you. I said the moderators took it off for anger/aggression REASONS false Again on your part.]
Now, if we can return to some good debate....
[My Response]
[Yes please do this is ridiculous and juvenile and very BORING.My god MAN, YOU HAVE THE MOST COMMENTS IN HERE SSHHHH! GIVE OTHERS A CHANCE. As entertaining as this has been I shall not continue as it's rather infuriating to have to repeat myself.
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Thank-you for the kind advice 2muchtestosterone. Taken on board, leave them to it I think as they do seem to be their own worse enemies. bye
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I think you have said enough for people to make a sound judgement. I could go through all your comments (and will do if you so wish) to 'justify' my points. You have said a lot but explained very little and that in itself speaks volumes.
I'm not the one who has shot myself in the foot, because i've never condemned or criticised your 'right' to comment and express your opinions. What I have pointed out is some inconsistency in your argument and asked you to clarify your points.
It's not me who is 'name calling'.
As for your use of the word 'Interpret' as opposed to 'assume';
Meanings found;
INTERPRET: To 'Construe' (insert a meaning)
ASSUME: to take to be the case.
OK: Here are your EXACT words: "OF course you are not going to think that blog that was removed was aggressive, I think it was and obviously so did the mediators.".... So, if you 'interpreted' the reasons why the moderators removed the blog, as opposed to 'assumed' the reasons, what you have done is 'inserted a meaning' (which fits your argument).
Why then did you say in your last blog:
"For some strange reason you keep doing this changing comments to fit you, so to you. I said the moderators took it off for anger/aggression REASONS false Again on your part."?..... It's not false on 'my' part - YOU SAID IT,.... read your own blog. [I think it was (aggressive) and obviously so did the mediators]. I'm not changing any words here, i'm just reciting yours.
Your EXACT words again: "WHAT I DID ACTUALLY SAY WAS---->Yes Kwondoman sounds like most Instructors that have had dealings with the NGB." That is a sweeping statement which simply cannot be justified... oh, but that's just nitpicking isn't it???
This blog can not be used as an indicator to interpret or assume what most instructors who have had dealings with the NGB sound like. It's not fair on those in the NGB or those outside of it and is clearly an inaccurate to 'interpret' or suggest otherwise.
I'm not CHANGING comments i'm simply pointing out the inconsistency in yours! You can't duck and dive your own statements and then accuse people of 'nitpicking' when they comment on them.
By all means have a view, and get your point across, but please try do so accurately and which reflects what you know or feel, not what you interpret or assume - that' where controversy arises...
That said, let's move on please?
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Dear Sirs,
The Taekwondo events at Olympia were mostly set up or framed by the Asians. The justífied outburst of Mr. Matos is simply natural. Since I have watched the quarterfinal of European women champion Helene Fromm (Germany) against the inferior Puertorcan Rodrduigez Asuncion everything became quite obvious. No hit by Fromm was accounted, even though her opponent was thrown twice on her back. Only two dubious "counterhits" (one hit even on the disallowed zone of the back) for the Puertorican appeared on the score. Then Ms. Fromm hit Ms Asuncion strongly at the head which would give any other TK fighter 2 points, but she received 0 points.
Regards, Peter
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The setting was that the South Korean Hwang Kyung-seon could win the Gold medal without meeting a selfconfident and dangerous European champion in the semifinal.
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jaffablog Is this Site yours, just a yes or no will suffice thank-you do not want to be bored by your long blogs. I know most of you in here. And so...... My god man you are suppose to be talking about TAEKWONDO not setting upon blogger. "yes you have ". I to do not want to be drawn into your petty arguing. The contradictions come only after your comments and I feel that lostjustasking answered his comments fully on a number of latter blogs. I am An Instructor so I actually DO know what I am talking about. Maybe what could be looked into is tiny probes within the players headgear that would cover any head shot that would not be covered by the body armour. Now this that said I will return to what I do best and that's training Good Taekwondo without all this petty fighting. Time will tell which Organisation will reign supreme, based on some of these comments you have not done yourselves any favours here guys. that's only my feelings.P.S for lostjustasking. I know most in here hiding behind blog names. we are not all this Confrontational there are a number of clubs out there that are Independant clubs and we run a much tighter ship, we get on with Taekwondo. not this bullying self absorbed stuff that is going on here, don't feel rejected or let down, as there is always going to some out there that think they are right no matter what. Carry on with your training and enjoy it. May I take this chance to Apologise to you on behalf of what has transpired here. So much for transparency guys yeah right.
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Charyeot - In answer to your question - no I don't own this blog. Like you I am an instructor and have been for many years - mostly independent and running a tight ship.
There is nothing for 'anyone' to apologise for. Debate is good and argument essential if all views are to be appraised. I certainly do not regard expressing or challenging another opinion as confrontational, and do not regard what I have expressed as confrontational and get on with many Taekwondo clubs from both inside the NGB and outside of it, as well as WTF and ITF.
My responses have only been because, I feel, perhaps like you that others have been portrayed in a bad light, and that to me is unacceptable, whether I agree with their opinions or not.
I respect peoples liberty to hold opposing views but also the principle of justice;
as Edmund Burke observed; "whenever a separation is made between liberty and justice, neither . . . is safe." Expressing views which contain interprations supposedly of other peoples intent or inclusion, which could be misrepresentative, is where many problems begin - I thought, they thought, we thought.... No doubt thalf the issues in Taekwondo could be resolved if people stopped thinking they think they know what other people think they know?
No I 'haven't' set upon a blogger, i've only requested 'accurate' comments.
I'm not in the BTCB and certainly have no desire to be, but I would defend them and any organisation for that matter from unfair comment and I make no apology for that.
I am not interested in which organisation 'reigns supreme' as it has little relevance to the average student. They only want good tuition from a good instructor and there are plenty of good instructors out there doing an excellent job.
On the issue of tiny sensors in headgear, I can't see that be feasable because under WTF competiton rules the target area for the head is the face, including the ears, but 'excluding' the back of the head (Article 11 Permitted techniques and areas) A blow to the back of the head (which isn't a legitimate target area) may still have a proximity affect on a sensor and, there isn't any way the 'face' could be monitored in the same way.
I'm all for transparency - I haven't got a problem with that and I never 'assume' that i'm right. I always try to make a fair and balanced judgement based upon the evidence or 'facts' before me. If I get something wrong i'll be the first to put my hands up, but I expect the same of others.
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Have been monitoring the blog and all the comments; In as much as I would have liked I ommited to add any postings as entrenched positions appear to have been established. Adding to a line of debate that apparently had reached the end of its lifespan would serve no constructive purpose.
Moving on!
for pwgoettig : It it your view that 'Asians' had fixed the results of the contests? By 'Asians' are you specifically referring to Koreans?
Personally I find it very hard to believe as the referees are from most member countries. Do you honestly believe that all these different nationals deliberately sored in favour or certain nationalities?
Food for thought:-
For those instructors that find the politics of Taekwondo not something they participate in or keep abreast of, they may be doing themselves no favours.
Politics controls the world, each nation and mosts sports. If you suddenly find you are being controlled by unfair rules then it may be that you did not take your opportunity to have your voice heard and cast your vote. Be carefuly you do not end up sleepwalking into a situation that can adversly affect you simply because you chose not to be a part of its creation.
The issues that face Taekwondo in the UK are partly due to the fact that many instructors have ignored the politics and allowed those in the positions of authority to push through their regulations unchallenged. As time goes by and people begin to secure their positions it becomes ever more difficult to remove them or challenge what they have put in place.
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Come on. You all know that when I said about the tiny probes in the players headgear I did not mean the back of the head. Tiny probes at the front covering also the ears. As a passing remark and a final thought. Jaffablog I note that you actually failed to bring to task the awful comments made by pwgoettig. Therefore leaving it open for all in here to make their own judgements on why you attacked lostjustasking. Do any in here think that Independent clubs and this new UKTDC will be represented at the 2012 games?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Charyeot; I thought you wanted me to cut out my blogs???
If you are referring to the commentspwgoettig made by about things being set up by Asians, I don't feel qualfified to comment on that.
There are reports openly available on the web, by people who attended the Olympics which 'allege' that certain things went on. I'm not in a position to make judgement on that, as I have nothing to show me that things did or didn't occur. If I say something did or didn't happen and circumstances later prove otherwise, I have misled people. If pwgoettig is aware of something, and they may well be(?), then it should be justified. However, the developments, reviews and investigations as a result of the Olympics are still ongoing.
It is when comments, statments, claims or interpretations etc, clearly go wider than what can be reasonably interpreted that I would expect clarififcation.
I think 'pwgoettig' was immediately taken to task by 'Regiment' on his reference to 'Asians' as a collective terms, so that seemed fair to have pointed it out.
Regarding the probes, I still think that placing them in the front of the headguard and ears won;t work, because as I said in my previous blog, there is a probably proximity effect. You then have to decide whether the correct part of the foot (below the ankle) actually struck the correct target area.
If the heel were to strike the back of the head with part of the lower calf simultaniously coming into contact with the ear, thus causing the sensor to register, is it a legitimate score? I know it sounds menial, but that is how 'sport' goes. If a coach or competitor thinks that this is what happenend or there is a chance that they can challenge the score, you can bet that some will appeal.
To me that is just adding to potential technical difficulties. 'personally' I would prefer to see decisions left in the hands of competent judges with the assistance of TV playback. I would rather not see 'electronic' scoring. That's my view.
I think that (just my opinion) that a single Governing Body is always going to have control over who can and who can not participate in the Olympics.
Also (my personal opinion again), that the best competitors/officials are not necessarily the ones who are representing Great Britain.
I am no longer a memeber of the BTCB, so can only say that it remains to be seen whether independents and/or the UKTDC will gain access in 2012.
There is perhaps a lot going on behind the scenes that many of us do not know about so it is too early to make any firm assessment about Taekwondo and the 2012 Olympics.
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Firstly to Charyeot: Respect to you. Well done you have shown great spirit by apologising to a fellow blogger, even though it ought to have been another. Applause man. I know Lostjustasking and he is 9months into his training and is a genuine guy, the picking on what he has said is diabolical, nothing to do with that jaffablog claiming to want justification on what is was he had said at all (That's my feelings) Charyeot changed the topic back to Taekwondo and along come jaffa with Sarcasm. Intelligent? No just dark spirited (again my feelings) I too also know most of you in here and I say, so what if I claim this! why was lostjustasking set upon by claiming he thought he knew who a blogger was? I am an Instructor of long standing and have had dealings with most in here no doubt. Yet it is okay for some to acknowledge they know who some are and when one blogger makes a statement he might know he is drawn and quartered where's the sense man? Charyoet put a good question in here so lets get back to that without jaffa answering it an behalf of everyone. so i put this to Mr Hudson and Mr Davies. How do you think you as a new Organisation may be able to compete with the btcb? What do you think your new Organisation has to offer apart from transparency? Who will you ensure that those that join you can compete at high profile events? (Without still having to have to pay for btcb memberships) Have you got some-one talking on your behalf(not jaffa)to ensure you can compete at events? What are the benefits of joining the uktdc if we still have to buy btcb memberships?
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I studied Tae Kwon Do in the past (ITF as opposed to shuffly shuffly kick kick, or WTF as they call it in the Olympics) and every four years I watch the olympics and every time I have to turn it off. The petulance of these people! Where's the honour? What ever happened to following the Tenets of Tae Kwon Do. Kicking a judge in the face? Where does that fit in? An absolute disgrace. And the judging was as usual ropey at best. No matter what level you're at there is always bias but this was beyond belief!
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Insead of me or Nigel posting answers that are already in the public domain I would refer people to read the latest edition of Combat or read UKTDC website
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The_Regiment: After being so vocal in here, to now refuse to post seems rather like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. I did in fact go on this uktdc site and came away still wondering what it is you have to offer. By all accounts it seems the better option to remain in the btcb. or pay two membership fees or as your Oganisation offers an.
Associate membership: this shall be for clubs and association who wish to retain a degree of autonomy and attain their own Insurance and conduct their own Dan promotions (subject to conditions) benefits shall also include discounted entry (-10%)to official UKTDC events, access to UKTDC Open Dan promotion tests if required. Member to member Insurance and professional indemnity may also be purchased if required. Associate member clubs shall also have periodical association listing in National martial arts press
Not sure what to make of this rather shady I think.
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BenR48: I am not refusing to post rather direct people to where the information is printed. Also am wanting to post what may be rather lengthy posts of static information having no element of discussion.
As you have read what is on our site I would like to ask why you feel our non restrictive membership is so shady?
We have members who retain membership with other bodies also hose who wish to use their own insurance.
On October 26th We have World and European Poomsae champion Master Ky Tu Dang 7th dan conducting a seminar for us in Blackpool. We have had quite a few enquiries from BTCB members to attend.
As I stated before we are quite a young body but growing rapidly and have already got the attention of many people around the country and many other countries
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The_Regiment you cannot justify your actions by informing us of one event run with the help of uktdc. The B.T.C.B Has Events also and see for yourself, are somewhat more beneficial to it's members.
25th - 26th September 2008
ETU IR Seminar for electronic protectors
The ETU are holding a seminar for International Referees to get more experiance with electronic protectors (adidas). The seminar will be held on the Island of Kos in Greece.
IRs who wish to participate should send their application to the ETU Secretary General, Gerrit Eissink, by email or fax no later that September 16th 2008.
27th - 28th September 2008
82nd BTCB Dan Grade and Seminar
Scotland
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BenR48: What actions am I supposed to be justifying? I am merely informing you of one of our seminars by the current World Champion which is open to all.
We have IR's in both Poomsae and Kyorugi who train our members in judging and refereeing. I agree if you want to go on the official ETU sanctioned courses then currently you have to belong to the BTCB. Nigel Hudson who is UKTDC chairman sat on the ETU Technical committee for many years; he recently judged at an official ETU event and has been responsible for training most of the BTCB Poomsae judges.
The UKTDC is working at developing various programs to aid its instructors and giving them an avenue for Kukkiwon accreditation. To provide a support framework and assist grass root clubs and make them feel valued.
As I said previously we are quite a young body but the feeling I am getting from your postings (correct me if I am wrong) is that we should have all the recognition right up to Olympic level or have no right to exist.
There is nothing wrong with having alternatives and that is what we are. Our initial growth has been very encouraging and we feel the future looks bright for us. I cannot predict the future so it would not be responsible of me to make catagoric claims of what will definitely happen.
The UKTDC was formed out of necessity and has been a catalyst in pulling many who had left the BTCB or did not want to be part of it together under a single banner. We also have BTCB members joining us and applying to participate in our seminars and competitions.
Our aims and objectives are sound and our motives genuine. If people feel threatened by our existence then maybe it is a sign we are a credible alternative.
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I am still at a loss as to what benefits there are in joining you. Why should anyone? It seems like most that have either have due to a run in with the NGB, and then by all accounts there are those that have joined you, yet still remain within the btcb! Why do that for what end? Respectfully asked: why have you started an Organisation that cannot hope to compete with the btcb, or cannot even attend any High profile Events. I am confused as to your purpose. As you know there are stories afoot as to why this has come about. Rather then take any notice I am asking you to explain the reasons behind this uktdc starting up. Where do you see this uktdc being in the the scheme of things? Will you be able to get Local funding or even government funding?
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As stated by Nigel the BTCB have alienated a large number of instructors who want another option.
I assume that your reference to rumours is what was printed in Kickback . I have seen all the documentation regarding the situation between the instructor and the BTCB. If you base your opinions on kickback only, I can assure you that you are only seeing a very small part of the story.
Some instructors tried to address their concerns with the BTCB and were treated very badly. some left and others were effectively pushed. These instructors feel that Taekwondo in the UK needs a new spark and a new direction which cannot be achieved through the BTCB.
We have already picked up large numbers of independant WTF stylists which put our numbers at around 5000. Many others are in talks with us which may further increase our numbers. In 6 months of existance we have already reached our 5 year target which shows the numbers that are outside of the BTCB.
We are able to attend some large international events but in the UK the BTCB host most of the big events.
At this point in time we cannot compete with the BTCB but if our membership continues to increase at this phenominal rate, who knows what the future holds.
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Just heard of this website from some of my students. I am sorry to hear such things in here, moreso am sorry to hear of the picking on of a student also. This is not the Taekwondo way and I think all in here knows this already so wont continue on this matter. Instead Im wanting to know if you please. IF you say you are growing so big so fast then why you cant compete with the ngb? I understand benr48 questions very much, but I too cannot see da benifits no disrepects meant here. just verry interetsed to hear more. I diagree with pwgoettig racists remark also very disgusting and not the place for such things. please return this to Taekwondo and no more picking on student this is not good
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I have just looked at uktdc's website can I make suggestion please? Please put more picture on gallery section okay?
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Let me ask some questions so I can best respond. In what context do you suggest we compete with the BTCB?
Aside from the competition element what benefits do the BTCB have that the UKTDC does not?
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what your understanding of word compete please.I not meaning it like how you say i better then you. I am meaning that you stand next to ngb as equals and as a noted Organisations. I do believe that the btcb have funding is this not so? I like to maybe see that the power is shared also.
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Funding for Taekwondo from sources like Sport UK or lottery funding goes I believe to a private company called Sport Taekwondo UK Ltd, a director of this company is also the BTCB chairman. From 2005 to 2009 they have received £2,667,000 from Sport UK.
So the money goes to a company whos director is also the BTCB chairman. Ask yourself what is the probability of sourcing any funding under such a set up?
The UKTDC did contact the BTCB suggesting a possible working relationship with them although the BTCB chairman has stated to one of our directors that he feels our aims are in direct conflict with the BTCB and that we are trying to undermine them. With this mindset I can not see the BTCB willing to share power.
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In response to your questions Firstly excellent it's back to Taekwondo. I know that it's a long hard battle when it comes to change. Have you perhaps tried at a higher level to change things? Remembering one must make sure one has something to offer and something that will provide for all and not just the few. Have you approached maybe at Government levels instead of minor placed involvement that can only help as an added value after you have obtained assistance from the top. Sports Minister would maybe be a starting block to get your point across.
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The_Regiment: Then perhaps your next port of call would be a case for the Court Of Arbitration. Would if what you are claiming (That a director is the chairman of the BTCB)Not also pose as biased and have a conflict of Interest when it comes to such matters as Funding and who should get it or not? Then again as this process can be long winded, how much do you want to be able to compete or be able to work alongside yet as a separate Organisation with no input from the btcb, do you want this? I would suggest that instead of paying any further lip service to what as happened in the past to put together a case that will strengthen your position and weaken theirs. As things stand from the comments made in here, it comes across as bitterness/anger/dislike/and an ill will towards what they (btcb) do. Please read this as it is intended. It is not meant harshly or even disrespectfully just avenues to think on.
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The_Regiment. Excuse the delay in responding. Have had club gradings.I clearly said in my blog>As you know there are stories afoot as to why this has come about. Rather then take any notice I am asking you to explain the reasons behind this uktdc starting up. Clearly saying as I read it that I have not taken sides instead giving yourselves the opportunity to put your point across. I think far too much is put into what you read into blogs made in here, and not much time spent on answering the questions. What are your AIMS? What do you mean by transparency? I also do agree with MasterSLee and also Charyeot that if I have read it correctly the tenets are what is lacking in some of the answers and accusations laid on a certain blogger. It is great that these have since ceased I might add. very much appreciated. How do you see yourselves dealing with the issues raised in here? Mainly how do you intend on dealing with the point about being noticed and accepted (stepping in from the cold) How will you change the competing at events run by btcb? I'd like to reiterate a point made by a blogger some time ago about the 5seconds remaining in the fight. It is felt that the fight should have been scrapped and restarted from scratch. I am of that ilk also. At present I and others I know are left wondering had Chen Zhong known that the 2 points were going to be contested would she have not done her utmost to take the lead back? No matter how this is looked at there are always going to be questions that in my minds eye will be revisited in the 2012 games and there the ghosts will be laid to rest I think.
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It seems like so many questions are ponted at the UKTDC so let me try to explain things in more simplistic terms.
raison d'etre:
There are very many Taekwondo practitioners that exist outside of the BTCB, some people calculate there may be as many if not more than are in the BTCB. This in itself poses the question of what is wrong with the BTCB that so many choose not to be included in their numbers. What should all these people who choose not to be part of the BTCB; give up Taekwondo?
What the UKTDC is doing is providing a structure which these non BTCB people can feel part of and operate under. This blog does contain statements by people who probably have grievences against the BTCB and its system, most likely because for many years they have had no avenue to have them heard.
When the UKTDC was formed it was not a matter of suddenly switching the light off of the BTCB and turning it on to the UKTDC. We are developing our structure, policies, documents and programs which are all well in progress and some completed. We know there are barriers in front of us, we know people may be trying to undermine us and we know things take time. It is not practical to expect us to have an answer for everthing or to deal with all the issues in one go, what I will say is we are working to provide our members with a welcoming and transparent organisation.
You ask what we mean by transparency: I give a few examples below.
1. We will have openess and honesty.
2. Minutes of AGM meetings will be made available.
3. Should any disciplinary matters arise people will be allowed witnesses to any hearings.
4. We hope that we can instil a feeling of worth and belonging to all our members.
5. Accounts will be properly administered and open for inspection.
6. Not restricting people so they are unable to enter other associations events.
By the numbers we are getting, in the very short timescale we have obtained them is clear evidence that an alternative to the BTCB is needed. permitting only one body mave be viewed as anti-competetive.
The UKTDC conducts black belt gradings and is able to obtain Kukkiwon certification for successful candidates. Despite being outside of the BTCB I have personally received a commendation from the Kukkiwon for my efforts to develop and popularise Taekwondo. A few others outside of the BTCB also have Kukkiwon commendations and positions of significance.
The UKTDC has the credibility, the high dan ranks, the connections and the ever growing numbers to be a positive force for Taekwondo in the UK.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/U13193822
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A40694565
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Giving in. Think this blog was strayed so far off the path. Just makes you all look silly. As for our many attempts to get this blog on track back to Taekwondo, along comes yet another blogger with comments like twistedstories. I think it would be time better served sorted out your own ghosts before you attempt to open the shutters on another.Fed up with it now, I too will now do as a few in here already have done, and that's leave you all to it. BORING!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This is getting silly: I could continue this sad line of discussion from which TwistedStories takes on a low tone of personal attacks on the UKTDC and its officers. The people on this blog deserve better so I will simply say that the UKTDC and its officers have had no contact with this person making the claims.
It is quite clear that this person has more personal issues with other individuals. enough said on this..........
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This blog seems to have been ambushed by the uktdc, nice free marketing guys!! What does worry me is the one sided and in some cases small minded comments. Maybe we need a bit of balance?
It would be unprofessional to expect the BTCB to air their "side" of the argument on here so let me play devils advocate and try redress the balance with a couple of arguments for discussion.
Firstly Sport Taekwondo is the recipient of monies from UK Sport and the chairman of the BTCB is a director - from what I know of others sports funding this has to be the case as UK Sport need to know that the NGB are active in what they are investing in so to say there is a conflict is ridiculous, to suggest it is amiss is a scandalous comment.
Secondly it is worrying that a lot of people want to be outside of the NGB and it needs addressing and it needs to be found out not only what they don't like about it but also what they would like ie positive input - this is usually harder to get from people as it is easier to criticise than to come up with an answer yourself.
Thirdly there are a lot of members that have been expelled from the BTCB or have left - not all these are reputable instructors that want to run clubs properly and teach with safety and integrity to the art, a lot are chancers who only care about fleecing students out of every last pound whilst teaching them poor quality taekwondo and not heeding to health and safety issues as it costs money. My worry for the UKTDC is that it will become a meeting of bitter people wanting to get one up on the BTCB rather than a coalition of great taekwondo instructors. That scares me immensely.
Fourthly Tyrone qualified the weight for Beijing, Michael Harvey collected more qualifying points from then to selection dates at nationals and a class tournements therefore was performing better prior to the games and was in theory the man in form. This was a pre set selection policy that both players were aware of from day one.
Fifthly what is wrong with the BTCB wanting to control certificates, kukkiwon applications etc? Surely we need control of who has done what if we are to improve the overall standard in this country. A lot of clubs and member groups give Dan grades simply on receipt of a payment - this is wrong. There are people out there in black belts that should be blue at best. Only by a controlled sylabus and recording of this can we be assure that the standard is up to scratch. The BTCB dan grading is strict and if you get your belt you have earned it. Having said that people have no self pride and are happy to buy it, that is so sad.
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I do hope that my above blog will not be removed. It was a response to a posting.
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I have decided to Comment Once Again. Only on this occasion it is simply to applaud the response from a person calling herself therealann. I read the blogs just before they were removed. It is most worrying that Instructors can behave in such a manner. I run a club and I would offer you a place with us anytime you like as it's your spirit and your endurance that keeps you above those Instructors in here, they could learn from your attitude. I will be seeking a way to leave you my contact details via this website. I am intrigued by your wanting to be a very good black belt most are happy to be just black belt good on you young lady. I too have heard (as you do) That Master Hudson knows his stuff, as you rightly said in this latter blog which has been removed, seems a senseless act on the part of people that don't seem to be able to take back their own medicine. Good luck on your grading whenever that is.
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To Smelly Monkey:
I don't think the UKTDC is in danger of becoming what you say you fear, as we are simply trying to promote Taekwondo in a transparent and democratic manner. As you can see by this blog, some support us and some choose to condem us, eveyone is entitled to their own opinion.
For the BTCB To get total control over Kukkiwon certification would require 70% of all WTF/kukkiwon style practitioners in the UK in BTCB membership which they do not have. Which other countries have category 1 status where only one body can apply for Kukkiwon certification? I believe the BTCB have applied a number of times to Kukkiwon for this status and have been turned down each time; which way to interpret this I don't Know. They are either short of the numbers to qualify or the Kukkiwon may not be keen to grant such status, one can only surmise.
There are many Kukkiwon masters outside of the BTCB who apply for Kukkiwon certificates for the people they grade, the system you advocate would see that taken away from them? Many of these instructors do require good standards from those they promote and the BTCB does not have exclusivity on standards. The former European Poomsae champion is no longer a member of the BTCB which is not an assurance that they suddenly lost their standards.
The Kukkiwon and WTF are 2 different entities; the Kukkiwon deals with technical standards and certification whilst the WTF are the sporting authority. Kukkiwon qualifications are not restricted to National Member Bodies of the WTF such as the BTCB. Giving control of all Kukkiwon applications to only NMB's would in effect hand control of Kukkiwon to the WTF which should never happen and I think never will.
Take for example the USA, they have a new alternative body (not WTF NMB) that Kukkiwon awarded the organising of the 2008 Hanmadang to. I don't see why the UK can not accommodate alternatives.
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A friend of mine was travelling in korea and went to the kuikkiwon headquarters. He mentioned he needed to obtain a kuikkikwon cert, when he mentioned he was part of the btcb they seemed to know exactly who the btcb was and wasn't too impressed by how things have been done. He was then offered to purchase one there and then after theyd checked his status as 'he would be waiting a long time to get it through the btcb'.
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Ref:rejt24
I have heard stories like this many times.
The BTCB now appear quite concerned with the UKTDC as I have heard that an instructor at last weeks BTCB National Championship was instructed to sign a disclosure to say he would not have anything to do with the UKTDC, otherwise his players would not be allowed to compete.
That seems very totalitarian to me.
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As a BTCB instructor, can you please explain what you guys mean that the btcb are getting people to sign a declaration stating instructors will not have anythin to do with UKTKD? to what purpose and what involment could a btcb club have to do with uktkd? that does seem a bit harsh that instructors are being asked that they have nothing to do with anyone else or players cant fight. Has this been raised with UK sport if it is happening, as i am sure that as long as a club is at least affiliated into the BTCB and players have BTCB insurance surley there is no issue with who else an instructor is associated. I cant remember that being in the BTCB rules or policies.
please carify why instructors are being asked to do this
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To northeastboi:
I am not the person to clarify why BTCB members are being asked to sign agreements not to have anything to do with the UKTDC. Only the BTCB can clarify that issue.
I actually have material officially from the BTCB to one of their members who had some dealings with the UKTDC. The relevant content states:
(quote)
You are required by the BTCB to sever links, formal and informal, with the UKTDC.
You are required to repudiate, in writing to the Disciplinary Chairman of the BTCB, the published aims and activities of the UKTDC
(unquote)
I agree there should be no issue with who an instructor associates with but for some reason one seems to have been implemented by the BTCB. If you look at their regulations and policies I am sure you will find nothing regarding such a rule.
UK Sport has no relationship with the BTCB only Sport Taekwondo UK.
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Question. When was this implemented? Or was it only after those of you that left? The answer to this latter question will be a more debatable subject then the personal attacks on bloggers. If One digs deep enough, one will find reason don't you think.
It's clear to all that you (UKTDC COMMITEE) Left or were thrown out or in some cases jumped before you were pushed. It comes across quiet clearly that there is great animosity between you Organisation and that of the Chairman. And not in fact the Organisation that is the BTCB. In Which case it comes across as unjustifiable spite.
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Ref: sjames29
Not quite sure what you mean in your first paragraph; those of us that had left BTCB membership formed the UKTDC so how can they have implemented it before it was formed?
We in the UKTDC have made it our policy to have an open and transparent organisation.
What is the relevance of when this practice by the BTCB was implemented?
I am not aware that we had personally attacked any bloggers, please advise me where the UKTDC committee have done this.
To repeat what has been posted earlier; we actually sent a message to the BTCB suggesting that we might work together but were never afforded an answer.
All I can base my opinions of why this demand has been is from comments made by BTCB Executive members in their correspondence (see below) to some people in reference to the UKTDC.
1. "You made the patently absurd assertion that it was not designed to undermine or rival the BTCB."
2. "This organisation's aims are designed to undermine the aims and WTF mandate of the British Taekwondo Control Board."
How should we interpret such comments?
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The_Regiment:It's like Your like a dog with an old bone. Why continue in this vein? Why would you want to Interpret such comments? After all you could never compete with the btcb let alone stand as equals. Your committee are x btcb members that did not like being told what needed to change so set about changing things to suit yourselves. Just move on and if you can offer the public a good service than fine. Do stop with the "Oh but we are a better choice then the btcb" It's freedom of choice.
This blog has come to and end and has run its course, I has achieved only to see you the uktdc as a group that will do anything to ruin the smooth running that is the btcb and under a very knowledgeable chairman, after all he still has his job what do you lot have apart from anger, and a real sense of vengeance.
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Ref:sjames29
You like others asked some questions of me and I simply gave you answers. I am also not aware that I have expressed any anger towards the BTCB or its chairman.
You are quite correct that it is freedom of choice but when asked to qualify what benefits there are to the UKTDC I have done so.
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On the subject of the instructor at the nationals having to sign a disclaimer it was stated that it was for insurance reasons. If a person is a member of 2 organisations he will have 2 insurance policies in place, should these be an accident one company may try put the claim on the responsibility of other and vica versa and the person could get nothing by the way of compensation, surely nobody would want that to happen to one of their students? Then again from what I have seen of a lot of TKD instructors they probably wouldn't care less as long at they get their way.
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but surley the only insurance policy valid at the nationals is the btcb insurance, therefore its irrelevant who else the instructor had an insurance with. I was at a club that had an independant insurance and a btcb insurance for those that were competiting. My old instructor was never asked to sign anything. So was it just because the instructor had an association with the UKTDC.
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Smelly_monkey:
You sound like you have Issues with this New Taekwondo Organisation! If this is in fact the case then, I suggest you deal with them in the appropriate manner instead of trying to take down this Organisation. Before you respond by saying that I seem to have changed my mind. I will clarify that I in fact have asked questions and am now of the belief that time will tell whether or not this Organisation will stand the test of time. Do desist from this scurrilous behavior. Have you perhaps had dealings with the UKTDC? Maybe you have been shown to be not worthy of being a member. Not sure why you seem to be so put upon by this Organisation. Would you like to clarify your past blogs more clearly? You sound like it's sour grapes.
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I have recently heard that the BTCB chairman has steped down. Can anyone clarify
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Hi All,
I have been watching this Blogg for a while with interest, and decided to start a new website and forum at my own expense for these discussions to go further. I would be nice if this comment does not get removed by the BBC and that maybe Nick Mullins and others could take an active part in the forums.
Why dont you all go to http://www.tkdworld.co.uk and click the 'Register' link in the top right corner.
I could also do with a moderator or two to help out as this is totally at my own expense and therefore my proper job has to come first.
Thanks.
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Suggestions about insurance conflicts in holding membership outside of a particular body is something of a misnomer and talking directly with insurers will help to clarify the situation for anyone who may feel concerned.
If it was a problem then all organisations would be demanding members/contestants sign similar disclaimers. I don't know of any other Martial Arts or Taekwondo bodies following suit.
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I believe that all member groups of the BTC use BTC insurance cover, this being the case it would mean that the BTCB also use BTC insurance. Some time ago I actually contacted by phone and email the insurance broker of the BTC insurance policy who confirmed there is no issue in having a second cover, although you may only claim on one policy for an incident.
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I to have spoken to some-one in connection with this dual Insurance.(btcb and uktdc) It would seem that if the Insurance bodies find out that you do in fact hold dual Insurances then your claim will In Fact cancel out the other. I have had this information in good authority. If it was as one blogger infers as being OK only that you cannot claim on the other for the same injury. Then why does the uktdc say in their own website under membership. The following:
Associate membership: this shall be for clubs and association who wish to retain their own autonomy. (Please clarify this!)
Is it to pull the wool over the eyes of the btcb. As by this very statements it indicates the double standards that you as a Claiming "transparent Organisation" are practising.I would like to reiterate. we all have the right to question, we all have the right the change our opinions. no-one has the right to however rip into some-one having a change of mind by claiming contradictions. contradictions come only as a failure to understand the fundamentals of human decision making. And if this is too deep a statement then rather than comment on it, try and fathom its meaning without turning it into a little boys fight.
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Ref: sjames29
Yes you have the right to question.
So let me again state the information I have from the actual insurance broker for the BTC insurance. I actually spoke with them on the phone and have email confirmation that having a second insurance is not an issue; I think you would have to agree that you can not get better authority than the actual insurance broker of the policy in question if that is the policy the BTCB use.
The reference for associate clubs maintaining their own autonomy includes a choice of using their own insurance rather than the one we offer .
Please could you clarify on how you perceive this to be double standards or in any way pulling the wool over the BTCB's eyes.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It does not answer any questions instead all you have managed to do is retort like a infant. AS you say:
UKTDC insurance may be offered if required
Please explain then why you tell your students your Insurance is a MUST BUY! Clearly double standards again. If a Member from the btcb was interested in maybe doing a competition that is run by yourselves would you permit them to do so under the btcb Insurance? If so then why would any of your associate members need to buy your Insurance? Why have you also informed your members not to inform the btcb that they are in fact members with your organisation?
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I am a full member of the UKTDC and has such I insist that all my students obtain UKTDC Insurance,
If I had wished to I may of exercised my right to join as a associate member and subsequently purchased my own insurance for my members, no dual standards just options,
BTCB members have indeed entered our events and have even checked that they are covered, the BTCB should inform its members that they may participate in external events with thier cover, this has been the case for many years
Our associate members do not have to buy our cover, they can obtain thier own, however we shall provide it if requested.
You indeed would do well in the BTCB as you seem to be good at answering questions with more questions,
My previous`response gave all the required information , if you cant pick up the phone and contact the insurers you will just have to decide for yourself.
for the record
what part of "may be offered if required" dont you understand.
Also for the record
The BTCB as an institution is not a problem and there are some very good People in it, it is the leadership that is not fit for purpose and continually deceive and fail to look after its members
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For the record, I have chosen to become an 'associate'member of the UKTDC whilst exercising my right to use insurance from another source. The reason that I do this is because I do not charge any form of membership to my students and 'I' pay for their insurance through another organisation at basic cost.
However, I give my students the choice to decide for themselves if 'they' wish to pay for additional UKTDC insurance, which quite a few have 'opted' to do.
There was no pressure from the UKTDC and they have been very supportive of how I operate.
The fact that my students are chosing to register with the UKTDC as an additional benefit speaks volumes of the transparency of it as an organisation.
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What a Crass Remark:
You indeed would do well in the BTCB as you seem to be good at answering questions with more questions.
Aww Don't you like having to answer your comments? Is it because you have something to hide? You are right I do fit in just fine with the BTCB. And since you already know this, just a rather daft comment from you. One claiming to be better off outside our Organisation. Do stop slating off the btcb, you all sound bitter and aggrieved, and as to why only you lot will know, as for us needing or even wanting to know is not a must. We have moved on and to be honest it's a much better place now that the arguing has ceased from people like you. wanting to be chairman, aww did you not get enough votes, Take the hint you were never really that well liked amongst us at the top, you were just there, we put up with you and your moaning.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
At no time did I say anything about:
Constructive dialog and addressing concerns raised to bring about acceptance and tolerance .
I do however concur that there is time for debate as it's within this very topic that change can come about, as you and I and those of you in here that have tried to enquire of things, that you may have been informed that you are not the ones to attempt to change things at your levels. What's that old saying? "IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT" One must learn to walk before one can run! I do think you have all formed a little clique and you do seem to be determined to force change in anyway you see fit. This is rather futile, if as you all claim, you left because you could not change things, then why are you all still so wrapped into bringing about change that quite frankly has nothing to do with you, as you LEFT. As for the use of the word APARTHEID! C'MON, don't be so ridiculous, you know what this word is inferring to and we do not stand by that nor would we ever have issues with race, creed, gender, poor use of the English dictionary Chris.
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Ref sjames
I did not imply that you have said anything about 'constructive dialog and addressing concerns raised to bring about acceptance and tolerance' I stated that I felt it was a good way forwards. Am I to assume that you do not accept constructive dialogue or the addressing of concerns? Can you also clarify your comment "you are not the ones to attempt to change things at your levels"; what levels are you referring to?
I am no longer connected to the BTCB, I like many believe that greater inclusion and acceptance of the right to exist of other bodies should be the norm; Change in inevitable in all things. I like many others have spent many years involved in WTF style Taekwondo, are you suggesting that as we are no longer in the BTCB we have no rights or voice?
As for the use of the word APARTHEID, I think it is quite apt, the definitions I gave ARE from the English dictionary but you choose only to accept only the one you are farmiliar with. Therefore it is not 'poor' use of the English dictionary but greater use.
You have also chosen to address me by my Christian name I would reciprocate but you have not provided yours.
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Ha ha It's always good for a giggle this Chris. Can see your still the enraged individual you have always been, no lessons learnt I see, maybe it's true about "YOU CAN'T TEACH AN OLD DOG NEW TRICK!"
I/We have nothing to prove. You lot on the other hand have lots to prove as you have all made statements that we in the know will wait to see if in fact any come to fruition. And with that it's "Forsan miseros meliora sequentur!" oops maybe your use of the English dictionary will not assist you.
hahahahahahaha.I will help you out.
It's Latin and it means: For those in misery perhaps better things will follow. This definitely fits you and your Organisation. Have fun talking to yourselves we are all bored now.TOODLES TODDLERS
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sjames29
I am certainly not enraged in the slightest, only trying to answer some questions and engage in constructive debate.
I certainly do not believe that you know me as an individual because I can not recall being enraged. I note with sadness that you appear to be the enraged person in the way you fail to consider another viewpoint or apply reason in your response; you resort to sarcasm and insult to try and establish your position.
I ponder on your motives for responding in the manner you do. Might I suggest you pause for thought and reflect on the tenets of Taekwondo.
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Ref:sjames29
I have been reviewing your comments and posts and am now quite convinced that you are not a member of the BTCB hierarchy or that group. You have made comments which are not correct and the BTCB hierarchy would be aware of the actual facts so would not have made those comments.
I believe that you are in fact a blogger who has engaged in this blog under different pseudonames; you fail to engage in reasonable debate or dialogue, and when your comments are shown to be baseless and nonsensical you resort to insult and personal attacks. When you discover that things are not going your way you begin to rant and then accuse others of being enranged. I believe your sole purpose is to attempt to discredit myself, Mr Hudson and the UKTDC or to cause hostilities between the BTCB and UKTDC on grounds that you have constructed. There is a pattern to the way in which your blogs develop which has become quite distinctive and obvious.
You are hogging this blog for your own personal agenda which is unfair on those who want reasonable discussion and debate.
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Hogging. HAHAHAHA OH YEAH HAHAHAHA funny!!! He that was on the phone trying to find out who I am at the BTCB. HAHAHA grow up Chris think before you post, what you do does tend to come back and bite you!!!!! What's unfair is you claiming the Injured party. Each time a blogger puts something to you lot, you turn on him/her. why do you do that? You claim within the btcb you cannot question. haha more like your interpretation is handbags at dawn cause you don't get your own way.
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Ref:sjames
I would like to refute the statment you made previously
I have not been engaged in any telephone conversations with anyone in an attempt to find out who you are, or your affiliation (if any) with the BTCB.
You are safe in your anonimity.
I would recommend, pior to posting further comments, you provide specific proof of claims you are making, otherwise please refrain for making outlandish claims and personal attacks that clearly have no merit nor basis in true events.
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It was a good day to pass away time. Only there were medals handed out to the wrong winners, rather shocking show of favouritism boys. Ha Ha and you pick at the scoring system within our Comps. Your Liverpool Comp was a real shambles. Talk about keeping those bigger clubs sweet, why did you even bother with the comp? you should have just handed them their medals. why go through the drama of organising a so called comp? SHOCKING SHOCKING. DISGUSTING
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It is quite clear to me that your intention is to discredit anything the UKTDC does because that is all your posts appear to consist of.
I am sure you were not at the event and therefore you are unable to sustantiate any of your claims. I have actually seen and am in posession of the feedback from a large section of those clubs in attendance in which both UKTDC and non UKTDC instructors give glowing reports to the organiser about the setup, quality of judging, timing and friendliness of the whole event.
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OK, What A Laugh! I was not there! Don't you mean You were not there? I saw what I saw and that's a fact, it was a sham. Yes I dare say after the fact you may well have what you claim you have- That it was as good as you say. That's because anything else could not be claimed because it was only good in the eyes of uktdc. Enough said on this I dare say. It's dated and so very boring. Have fun playing tkd. The rest of us will enjoy Practising the art and Mastering of the art. Something that is rather laking in the uktdc.No doubt you will argue and disagree, this is your right but does come across as some-one trying to prove something. Do you regret your decision to become invloved in this uktdc? Or do you really believe you could ever possibly become our Governing Body. If the latter is so, ha ha very deluded I dare say.
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Chris I have a question for you. What made you change your mind? You always claimed you would never ever work with an Individual after what he did, by setting up your twin brother. And don't act like you don't know what I am talking about, cause you will just come across as a right prat. What changed your mind? Cause you are, in fact working with the very individual you had nothing good to say about. oh yeah wait that's it you're going to say oh but he never did it to you! what happened to blood is thicker then water?
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To sjames29.
As I am Chris' brother I know what has been said and I don't always agree with him on certain issues BUT, you have obviously failed to discredit the UKTDC with your rantings and are now trying to cause trouble by making attackes on a personal level. Don't bother - it won't work.
You are clearly rattled by the existance of the UKTDC, otherwise you wouldn't bother with all your petty comments. Grown up people just get on with things - try it, you might find adult life an eye opener.
Bye
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Surly in a martial art or sport such as TKD where people have to dedicate so much of their personal time, energy and sometimes finances, they do it for themselves. Regardless how individuals view each other or how they found their way into TKD it's a personal mission or goal in their style that drives them, not anger or resentment to other people preferences.
I couldn't agree more that there were parts of the olympics weren't the best advert for any form of TDK, some changes clearly need to be addressed and the amount of posts on this topic can only support that. But then some of these posts aren't the best advert either.. Anyone first hearing of Taekwondo is unaware of the different techniques, styles and ways of practising. I'm embarrassed by some of these posts on a site as big as the BBC for anyone who is not aware of the difference in styles must read these entries and consider themselves almost lucky not to be involved in any organisation that can't even support it's own heritage regardless of how different people feel it should be practiced. It's not as if anyone's is going to put their hands up and say "I agree, we're doing it wrong".
I've been lucky enough to be trained and train in TKD for many years and regardless of the style, anyone who dedicates so much time to better themselves in a sport or art which is so physically and mentally demanding we all should identify with them and respect what they have also achieved. This kind of dedication comes from wanting to better oneself in many areas of life, ultimately making us better people. Surly it's this message that anyone in Taekwondo should be promoting.
The olympics raised a massive amount of awareness for TKD I can only hope Taekwondo uses that awareness to come back faster, harder and better than before...
After all; isn't that want Taekwondo's all about?..
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