- 19 Aug 08, 06:32 AM
It was a night of what could have been.
John Whitaker's forced omission from the team could well have cost Britain a show jumping medal.
John was said to be devastated to be sidelined after the appeal went against team GB.
He wanted to ride and had been led to believe that despite his withdrawal yesterday after Peppermill had a sore back, he would be allowed to.
Unfortunately for him and Britain, when Olympic medals are at stake it's dog eat dog and seven of the other teams decided they should protest, saying team GB had an unfair advantage if John was allowed to ride.
I can see their point, he would have done one round less, but it was a bit tight.
If Britain had played the game, John could have got on his 'not - right horse' last night and presented him at the first fence, deliberately refused and then been eliminated, only for him to reappear tonight with a fit again Peppermill and jump a great round for bronze?
But quite rightly the team decided it wasn't sporting or good for the show-jumping to do that.
The maths shows if Britain had John and Michael Whitaker we'd have probably won the gold!
It just reinforces what many past Olympians always say "to win an Olympic medal you need luck" and once again, team GB had none in the show-jumping!
Michael was so upset he struggled to speak during a live interview I did with him on Radio 5.
I really think he is great. It can't be easy for him to keep traipsing up to my commentary box three times a night to listen for ages while they cover all the other sports while we wait to do our horsey stuff.
We usually have a laugh though. Particularly while John Inverdale says something funny.
Tonight while we were waiting, Invers spent ages talking about how he'd visited a fabulous arena in Beijing which he'd been told was for the para-equestrian events.
I had to tell him they are actually being held here in Hong Kong and god knows what that place in Beijing was for!
Anyway, away from GB, I have to say it was a great night's jumping.
The course, once again proved really tricky. A true Olympic track. Full marks to the Americans. They did it again and stopped the Germans from a team gold clean sweep. They were nowhere near in the end.
Also well done to Canada and their team of three! Ian Miller must have thought he'd never win an Olympic medal. This is his ninth games and he's 61!
I said to Michael, maybe John will be around for 2012 after all!
Finally well done to Norway for winning the bronze and their first ever Olympic equestrian medal. It's great for the sport and great for neutral spectators.
Roll on Thursday's individual. All three Brits have qualified and don't forget Emma Hindle in the dressage final. It's the freestyle which is to music so it's a really good watch.
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Comments
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Lizzie your predictions were dead on!!
What an inspiration Ian Millar is. Also I have to mention the 49 year old French cyclist who was fourth to Nicole Cook in the time trial - she barely got a mention here. Just shows age isn't necessarily a barrier, can be an advantage.
Good luck to Emma, Tim, Ben and Nick...(and not forgeting the Irish raiders Denis Lynch and Latinus!)
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So why didn't Whitaker do just that (turn up on first round and deliberately eliminate himself)? I can't imagine that, say, the Germans or Americans would have been as wet if they had been in the same position.
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I don't think anyone could accuse John Whitaker of being 'wet', Forthview!!
I think it's called putting the horse first. Even to warm up over those size fences would have put tremendous strain on Peppermill and could've damamged him permanently, not to mention the pyschological effects of being purposely pulled up at the first fence - how confusing is that for the horse?!
Well done to Ben Maher for 3 fabulous rounds jumped so far - I hope he gets some reward for his consistency in the individual.
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I think he was led to believe by officials that he would be able to compete. So its not a question of being 'wet'.
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Does the team only consist of John? Hardly - there are three other members, exactly the same in fact as the canadians had who managed to clinch silver. We were simply outclassed, aside from the brilliant Ben - not just not in a medal spot, but close to the bottom. For a nation with such a long history in equestrian sports something is clearly going wrong. Is it the team attitude? Do they simply not want it enough? Or is it the training? Stop making excuses for them - I highly doubt the inclusion of John would have changed anything, given the scores some of the others knocked up. Fingers crossed they've learnt something and the individuals will be better.
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This is the problem with having independently wealthy amateurs competing. A professional sportsperson would have done the right thing (deliberately refused) and got on with it. Whittaker treated the whole thing as his private game, a bit of fun, and his ego and pompousness cost Britain a medal.
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Good old British need to be 'sporting' costing us a medal. It's a shame that the ideal of 'sporting gestures' is long gone, but it's about time we Brits woke up to the fact and started playing the game.
History will remember the Gold medalists, which could have easily been GBR but there will be no record of the fact that we won a 'moral' Gold...
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I really don't understand Lizzie Greenwood-Hughes. Why is ok for us to shamefully and disgracefully protest against the German eventing team in 2004 (when by all measures, their final rider Hoy had done nothing to gain her any advantage and was simply misguided by a faulty piece of equipment), yet now she implies that other teams should be generous despite there there be a clear advantage for whitaker?
I think Lizzie Greenwood-Hughes like many of us must not allow patriotism (and an almost childish greed for medals) to get in the way of objectivity. Why can't she enjoy medals for other nations? Afterall most of us have just as much in common with the IRish, German or American teams than we have with the British.
Any reasonable sports journalist or fan must accept that since Athens we have lost any right to judge other equestrian teams. The events in Athens at least provved that Team GB does not represent Britain or British values (let alone Olympic ideals) but only it's own interests.
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Cetrainly no "moral Gold", had we thought of it we would have done it- get real!
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I agree with silverrun. Team GB was outclassed anyway. We were out of the medals with or without John - Ben Maher's clear was great, but not enough. The Americans, Canadians, Norwegians, Swiss, Dutch and Germans rode much so better team rounds on the day.
Hopefully things will improve this afternoon, and no excuses for 2012!!
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I couldn't have put it better myself, James in post 8 summed it up perfectly!!
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First of all, well done Ian for being such a massive stalwart for the games....
I think we need to forget winning for just a moment and concentrate on the horse. Yes they could have just pulled him up on the first fence but as already mentioned by another blogger you cannot sit on a horse and canter it around as if it is something out of the wild west, even one that has muscles needing warmed up with more care than usual.
John with all his professional integrity still intact knew this to be a bad thing and quite rightly didnt go into the ring and cause more damage.
I think the rules regarding the Olympic showjumping are needing changed. Indiviual should be totally seperate from the team.
The reason why the teams made such a fuss was because they didnt want John in the individuals... which makes them basically frightened of the opposition. Where is the sport in that?
Yes John you did the right thing, he was looking after his horse.
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Perhaps this is all just a ploy to raise the sport's profile? Clearly it's ridiculous to suggest the British riders should be handed an advantage by our rivals, and to even want to win that way is frankly embarrassing to the whole of Team GB.
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Going back to post 6 by levdavidovich - are you suggesting that John Whitaker is an 'independantly wealthy amateur'??
What planet are you on?!! As you clearly know nothing about British showjumping, I suggest you keep your opinions to yourself!
John has been one of the best professional riders in the world for over 30 years, overcoming a brain haemorrage about 3 years ago to retain his position in the top 20 world riders.
As someone who has competed in showjumping as an amateur for a good few years, I can assure you it would be nigh on impossible for an amateur to compete at showjumping at the Games, as you have to travel the world to compete and have a string of horses in order to gain results against the professionals.
I am extremely annoyed on John's behalf that you interprete his decision not to jump Peppermill as 'pompous' and 'a bit of fun'. It probably cost him thousands of pounds, and was without doubt a team decision to preserve the horse for another day.
That horse, and the rest of John's string of horses, are his lifeline and his pay packet - without them, he doesn't earn a living. So, no - a gold medal isn't worth risking that.
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Aside from anything else, if John's horse wasn't feeling 100% and he had jumped, he would have been unlikely to go clear, so we wouldn't have got in the medals anyway.
Horses are not machines, so it's a pointless argument.
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As a team of 4 that has 3 scores count, does the team not have the right to choose not to enter their 4th horse and proceed on the 3 scores they already have? Disregarding the actual situation with John's horse, this is effectively what team GB did.
if a team's first 3 horses jump clear do they still have to enter their 4th horse even though they can't improve on their position?
it would seem that this must be the case given that the reason for John not being allowed to enter his horse on the 2nd day was due to "an unfair advantage of his horse not jumping on the first day."
Some would argue that John's horse not jumping on the 1st day is actually a disadvantage due to the fact that the horse will have had less opportunity to become familiar with the arena/jumps/crowd/big screen etc.
Anyway, I think John and team GB absolutely made the right decision not to jump Peppermill because he wasn't quite right. I think people forget that the horses are also Olympic athletes - they are not just sports equipment!
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Lizzie, I have enjoyed reading your blogs.
John-Cirencester, what is wrong with being patriotic or wanting to win medals? Not childish at all. And as she says "Full marks to the Americans". She simply can't win and is presenting what she observed on the night and the options that were obviously open to them. If you read carefully you'll see she has written "I can see their point" (re the appeal). There may be a general tone of regret Britain were in that position but surely anyone who supports team GB can feel that? John could have deliberately refused but he didn't go down that route.
Accept horses are living beings and its not as if other nations didn't have their fair share of problems, there was plenty of refusing going on - even from the likes of Bezzie Madden.
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This article was published in the gaurdian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/aug/16/olympics2008.olympicsequestrian
It absolutely slanders Dressage and the whole equestrian sport, while insulting the intelligence of anyone who is interested in horses. It is utterly despicable, and I'd be interested to know if others find it as offensive as I do.
Lizzie, maybe you should use your BBC status to make some sort of public statement in disagreement with this...
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I think perhaps there is a little top much being made of the Peppermill incident in the heat of the situation.
Before we forget, it was Britain 4 years ago who led a fairly undignified scrabble to get Bettina Hoy, another rider who has given so much to the sport, eliminated for a technicality involving the start gate at the end of the eventing when she had otherwise a certain gold. They were right if you follow the "rules are rules" approach, and she had made an error that had been confused by the clock not starting. But the British team showed in the circumstances that it was equally capable and willing to use the rule book to get the medal. So, apologies for the expression, but let's not get on too high a horse here, and perhaps just reflect that what goes round comes round.
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Of course rules are rules. But what is Lizzie supposed to do - not report on it in her blog? It had a significant impact on the British team and therefore is bound to be discussed.
Surely people want to know the extent of the injury etc and it was obviously a fleeting problem putting the team in a difficult position.
Of course Canada competed in the second round with 3 members and won silver. So at the end fo the day, we weren't good enough.
Still no harm in reporting on the ins and outs of the situation and being disappointed for the Brits.
Comparing this scenario to the one in Athens is a bit unfair. Different situations and anyone who's had a horse lame or sore for no apparent reason knows how fustrating it can be!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Lynn 1975 - you're correct that the 4th member of the team doesn't have to jump if the other 3 have gone clear as he can't improve their score.
However, Nick had had an unfortunate 13 fault-round, and would most probably have been the discard score if John had jumped and had less faults. I still think Peppermill would not have jumped a clear though as he was unfit.
The other countries undoubtedly objected because John's horse had effectively had a rest day when theirs had all jumped, not because they were intimidated by John! As good as he is, his Olympic record isn't brilliant (I think he won a indivdual medal once on Ryan's Son years ago) so I doubt they would play that game.
Peppermill had already been in the arena and jumped a round of 5 faults on Friday, so was well used to the arena and its sights.
On another note, I agree with some previous comments that showjumping could do with a fresh voice in the commentary box. Tim Stockdale would be ideal - he's knowledgeable but also understands that not everyone watching is an expert. Sometimes I think Mike Tucker can get a little stuck in his rut, and much as I enjoy Steve Hadley's commentary, if you'd never showjumped you wouldn't have a clue what he was on about.
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Thanks for the link dublindarcy08, that Guardian article was the highlight of my lunchtime. Mr Mitchell was pretty much on the money.
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"18. At 12:00pm on 19 Aug 2008, dublindarcy08 wrote:
This article was published in the gaurdian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/aug/16/olympics2008.olympicsequestrian
It absolutely slanders Dressage and the whole equestrian sport, while insulting the intelligence of anyone who is interested in horses. It is utterly despicable, and I'd be interested to know if others find it as offensive as I do."
In common with, I suspect, most other readers, I actually found that article to say pretty much everything I think about dressage. Perhaps it should exclude itself from the Olympics and become more of a demonstration event?
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Crikey, so many comments posted by 'expert's who would clearly have a hard time distinguishing between a cow and a horse! And that article in the Guardian was pure class.....I am assuming it was written tongue-in-cheek?! Of course not but that's the Guardian for you.
I have to agree with both sides of the argument. The teams who protested over John riding in the second round were totally correct and team GB were correct in not having Peppermill deliberately refuse the 1st fence in the first round. As for bringing up Betina Hoy's elimination from the Eventing in Athens (which led her to lose her Gold medal). Well, a complete circle turned counts as a refusal and gets penalty points. Heart breaking for Betina but it is a rule that us hugely wealthy, cruel floggers of unhappy horses learn from an early age! What next? Allowing offside goals in the world cup, because it's the world cup? Come on people. If you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk. You let everyone know how obnoxious and arrogant you are!
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Showjumpers and anyone else involved in sports where horses are involved always need first and foremost to consider their mounts without which they would get nowhere.
John and Michael Whitaker both have had the worst luck (as did Zara Philips for the 2nd time before the games even began) to have horses who weren't fit enough to compete. But that's horses for you - as people who have had much to do with them will know.
If John had mounted Peppermill and presented him at the first fence twice to be eliminated it would have been a total farce. Firstly it might have caused more damage to the horse's back and secondly it would have made the sport look silly. Either way the horse would not have jumped a fence but one way there was a chance (if further damage wasn't caused) for the horse to compete in the rest of the event - that was a BAD decision and should never have been an option for the good of the sport and the horse (and, incidentally, didn't reflect well on the other teams).
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I am actually quite shocked by some of these comments.
1) John Whitaker is from a normal farm owning Yorkshire family as far as I know they were never wealthy. In pictures of Joh and Michael Whitaker as boys they don't look rich and are riding normal looking ponies. However they were taught from a very early age and have been in the saddle for years and this counts for a lot.
2) Many UK riders struggle far more than their European counterparts to get rides on top flight horses because they don't have £1 million plus to spend on horses. The Germans have far more money for horses from owners usually and far better support from their government. John and his brother rely on their supreme horsemanship and skill to bring on horses. They have consistently been in the world top rankings often without having the same quality horses and are admired by everyone who knows about the sport. They have been riding and competing since they were boys. I have seen both jump clear rounds on horses that were not their own after a very brief ammount of time on them. Indeed John Whitacker won the Hickstead Derby, a supreme test of horsemanship, on a horse he had hardly ridden (Buddy Bunn) because his normal jockey, William Funnel, was injured. It is a testimony to his skills that riders and owners would trust him over dangerous courses with their loved and valuable horses but they do because he is a wonderful rider and a great horseman who would never risk a horse.
2) The incident with the German eventers was extremely unfortunate but Betina Hoy did break the rules. In a local pony club class if you went before the buzzer you would be disqualified so how that same rule could not upheld at the highest level would have been rather hard to explain across the sport.
It was a technical error yes but that's like saying it's okay for Paula Radcliffe to go 2 seconds in front of the other marathon runners. It probably wouldn't make a huge difference but the officials were not ready and when there are horses and officials and horses in rings (who can seriously hurt someone reparing a jump for example) then safety cannot be risked. The officials on the day handled the situation very badly. She knew perfectly well she'd broken the rules, you could see from her face, it wasn't intentional of course but if one of our team had done the same you can bet that the Germans would have pushed harder for a correction and would have celebrated without a problem. The British riders obviously felt awkward about the situation.
All of this said eventing and show jumping are not the same sport and don't have the same rules. It's like saying F1 and rallying are the same.
3) It would be unsporting to have taken the horse in the ring and more importantly it would have risked the horses health. Horses are not humans and cannot say that hurts too much, they rely on their riders and vets to be their advocates. I wouldn't let any of the people who think it would have been okay to ride Peppermill anywhere near a horse I was caring for.
4) The officials should not have told the team it was okay to rest Peppermill if it wasn't. Eventing teams have finished with only 3 horses and this has been allowed so if we're going to compare previous events between the two sports this should be allowed to. The rules need to clear and they need to stuck to.
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Once again, Monsieur Moutarde, why do you come on this forum if you're not a fan of dressage?
You seem to spend your time writing inflammatory comments on a sport which you detest. Why? I hate football, which is precisely why I would pull out my toenails with my teeth rather than go on a forum of football fans.
You must really be pushed for things to do......
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I just don't think it's right that a proper sport like squash has been elbowed aside to make way for dancing horses.
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You aren't alone in your opinions Moutarde. Any event in which an athletes technical equipment includes a horse has no place at the Olympics.
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With that comment, moutarde, you have just helped me decide that I will not be visiting any of these forums again.
I hadn't been on any before these Olympics, and am so fed up with the ignorance and facile comments that I've read that I won't be coming back. It's not good for my blood pressure!
Ignorance will indeed be bliss for me too.
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It's rather a shame this discussion has gone so tastefully off topic.
I would love to challenge such people who wish to say that dressage to music has no place in the olympics, by asking them to try it for themselves. Dressage is such a difficult discipline. It take amazing communication, trust and determination between horse and rider, excessive amounts of training for both horse and rider to stay in condition and to be able to complete such complicated movements amongst other skills which are more than can be asked of many other athletes who compete.
I'm in no way saying that other athletes feats are mind blowing, but because working with horses demands attributes that are so uncommon, it could be said that it is more demanding than some other events.
Now try and take the demands of dressage and get them in time to music! Moving something elses feet.. I find it astounding as dressage itself is so difficult at such a level. With every movement being looked at so closely it's amazing that the rider-horse communication is so great that a subtle touch can change the horses movement completely.
With all this in mind how can such a sport be ignored by the olympics?
As to John Whitaker, it's a real shame that he wil not be competing in the showjumping. It is a big loss to GB, however I'm pleased we've chosen to be so 'sporting' regardless of times, at least such etiquettes and goodwill aren't being lost completely. I'm still really disappointed he isn't competeing however.
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Re DublinDarcy (post 18)
Haven't been able to read the article yet, but I dont think the BBC is in any position to criticise. On the main Olympic section of the website, there has been several comments made of a derogatory nature towards the equestrian events- dressage in particular.
Now, I realise it is probably all meant in good humour- and cracks about horses break dancing are vaguely amusing.
But i think its terrible that the BBC is showing such a lack of respect to our team and their magnificent horses. In fact ,not even just to our riders, but ALL of the riders at the games.
It is quite clear that most of these people have never been near a horse, let alone tried to ride one, let alone done any kind of challenging competition! I really think a bit more respect should be shown.
And as for John Whittaker, i cannot honestly believe that there are people on here having a go at him! He didn't risk Peppermill in the first round jumping because the horse was not fit! How can you criticise the man for that??
maybe his inclusion for the second round wouldn't have resulted in a medal for us anyway- frankly i don't care. I still would have liked to see him given the chance.
But to say that his decision not to risk Peppermill the previous day has "cost us a medal" is, quite frankly, ridiculous!
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Thelmablu (27)
THANK YOU! Excellent comment, you said everything i was thinking but wasn't articlate or knowledgeable enough to get out.
Some of the people on here should be ashamed of themselves and clearly have no idea what it takes to ride a horse!!
I, like many many people I'm sure, would much rather watch a horse doing cross country or show jumping than watch 2 people whacking a ball against a wall. Dressage is not my thing, admittedly, but surely anyone with half a brain can recognise the skill and training it takes to get a horse to do these things?!
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It takes skill and training to construct a house, so should House-Building be an Olympic sport?
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I don't question the difficulty, I just think it only has a place in the programme for historical reasons, having been in the programme since 1912.
If equestion was not already in the Olympic prgoramme, would it ever get into the summer games? I very much doubt it.
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At 3:18pm on 19 Aug 2008, Moutarde wrote:
It takes skill and training to construct a house, so should House-Building be an Olympic sport
You could say the same comment about any of the other olympic sports, and yet you're not questioning their inclusion. Clearly, you really do have absolutely no idea of the skill, fitness, and degree of training and dedication required in any of the equestrian sports and particularly dressage. People's only objection seems to be its looks like dancing and its to music - shall we scrap parts of gymnastics then as well? As for Doc_Kev questioning its inclusion, if you don't question the difficulty, why do you think it doesn't warrant the same level of recognition and competition as any of the other olympic sports?
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DocKev - are you serious? Of course the equestrian events would be included!
You clearly have an issue with horses, maybe you were kicked as a small child, i don't know.
I would say it has far more of a place in the Olympics than say, beach volleyball, synchronised swimming, football, tennis. Just because you persinally dont enjoy it doesn't mean it shouldn't be there!
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The cost of putting on the equestion events is staggering. On that basis alone, it would not make it into the programme, if not already there.
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I know I said I wouldn't comment again, but I have one burning question......
Doc_Kev: What's equestion?
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If my lack of care over my spelling can help ease an irate old codgers blood pressure, I will hapiply kepe no mkaing msitaske.
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Well it may cost a lot to put on an equestrian event but does that affect you, an amrchair spectator, in any way? Not that you seem to like it any way, which confuses me. Why are you on this blog???
If you lot don't like equestrian sports you know where you can go.......
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to the other bloggs to annoy them!
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Doc_Kev: old codger? That's rather stereotypical of you, isn't it? Just because I can spell!
I'm 28.
I can think of other sports where hideous amounts are spent on building stadiums, ticket prices are extortionate and a player's weekly salary would wipe out the national debt of a small African country.
I know it's not in the Olympics - it's worse than that. It's the 'national' sport.
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Simple, there was a link to the story from the sport homepage that briefly drew my interest, but reading comment 18, and the guardian article it referenced, made my day.
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The only response I've seen so far to the argument against Dressage being an Olympic sport is an amalgamation of the following
1) You understand it
2) You don't know how hard it is
3) You can't spell so what do you know
4) Stop picking on us
Well, it seems to me that if even the most committed supporters of equestrianism cannot articulate a good reason why it and not squash is in the Olympics, then perhaps it shouldn't be there.
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If you don't like it, don't watch it, don't think about it, eliminate it from your psychi.
In the yard at school, when my 5 and 6 year olds can't agree on which game to play, they usually realise they can simply play two different games. Go and play a different game if you don't like it.
I can quite see why people may find dressage boring or even useless, pointless but just watch squash instead, or if squash isn't on, go and do the gardening - or even take time to improve your diplomatic skills. Or make your wifes tea - I can't imagine you're a woman and so arrogant.
It is worth noting that the Olympic games was meant to be a celebration of the achievements of the human body, using whatever 'equipment' necessary to demonstrate this. Why can't you recognise the skill and achievements involved in dressage and other equestrian events? And please don't hark on about house building - it maybe an achievement of the human body, but so might pie eating, tarmac laying, remote control building...
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I'll pretty much watch any sport and I've been watching the online coverage throughout the Olympics. Some events I like more than others but dressage is the single one that can motivate me to do the ironing.
However the excitement, or lack of, is somewhat beside the point, myself and Moutarde have been questioning if dressage and eventing in general belongs in the games
The quote from the original article
"Ian Millar wins a medal in his ninth Olympic games at the age of 61"
sums it up for me.
In elite sport the elderly (with the odd notable exception) cannot compete with guys in their twenties and thirties. Elite sportsmen do not compete in nine olympic games. Therefore, can this really be an "achievement of the human body?" Nope, it strikes me that the only significant effort in eventing comes from the horse. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe they award medals to the horse.
Again, I don't question the skill of the rider, but the horse is the elite althete in this partnership.
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Sports are defined as: ‘activities that are competitive, have formal rules, require physical effort and skills, and are organised within institutional structures’
The majority of equestrian events therefore qualify as sports. The Olympics Games is an international multi-sport event (IOC 2006). Therefore equestrian events have a legitimate place at the Olympics. It is not the fault of the horse-riding fraternity that squash is not included. I personally think it should be too, but not to the detriment of other sports.
Having ridden for many years myself I can certainly say it is a wonderful feeling of harmony and sportsmanship when you finally start to master the technicalities and intricacies of actually riding. It is unfortunate that so few seem to understand the skill involved at the international competition standard. All I can suggest is that you have a go yourself. 2.4 million Britons already do. That’s a huge sport and generates huge revenue; it needs representation in the Olympics to encourage more participation. Professional riders devote their lives to these sports, and to have them thoughtlessly criticised is a real shame. I think it’s wonderful to have a sport where men and women compete equally, and where age is not a key factor, unlike experience and mental toughness.
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With all horse riding disciplines it takes a proper team between horse and rider, fitness and athleticism on BOTH parts (although undoubtedly the horse does burn more calories than the rider).
I find many of the comments on here childish - it's very possible that people don't understand dressage (or other equestrian sports) and there very probably should be other sports included in the Olympics - no argument there. BUT because some people don't see the point of dressage and its complexities (and I'd venture that a lot of 'equestrian folk' don't fully understand it either) doesn't mean it shouldn't be included. Dressage was founded in our requirements of horses in war, work and recreation and is very skilled, extremely difficult and very few people have the time, energy or patience to do it.
And if we're talking about sports to exclude - why not exclude sports where drug taking is rife where means people can not compete on a level playing field? At least you won't find any of that in equestrian sports.
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Dear doc_kev
Jeannie Longo of France was fourth, behind nicole cook in the cycling time trial. She is 49. On the basis of your ageist comments would you ban cycling from the Olympics too?
Also some people have been arguing for snooker as opposed to dressage, I suspect you don't have to be an elite athlete to excel at this 'sport'. Also you could probably same the same for archery and shooting.
So please give the riders and other 30+ Olympians some credit!
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"50. At 12:32pm on 20 Aug 2008, cd8jbr wrote:
because some people don't see the point of dressage and its complexities (and I'd venture that a lot of 'equestrian folk' don't fully understand it either) doesn't mean it shouldn't be included. "
Are you suggesting that it's the fault of the spectators for not understanding why dancing horses should not be included in the Olympics? That reminds me of the inventor of the chocolate kettle blaming the consumers for using it to boil water.
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I was careful to include the caveat that there are notable exceptions and Longo is clearly outstanding, and has been for some time. To correct your mistake though she was not 4th behind Nicole Cook, Nicole Cook won the road race not the time trial. Longo beat Nicole Cook in the time trial. I don't understand your argument though, she's 49, which is old for an elite sportswoman, but she's substantially younger than 61.
If you sat Britains bronze medal winning swimmers, rowers, gymnasts and cyclists down, and asked them whether they felt the eventing bronze medals were of equal worth to theirs, I very much doubt they would.
Dancing dogs belong on 'Britains got talent', and the dancing horse should join them.
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I'm sure all the Olympians respect each others' sporting achievements and disciplines, because they are aware of all the effort and commitment required.
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Doc_Kev,
Instead of dismissing this sport offhand as 'dancing horses', you should really do some homework. If I see an unusual sport I take the time to learn a bit more about it, I just wish more air-time were given to them.
Many of the moves in dressage are centuries old, designed to enable to the horse to be more obedient and useful on the battlefield. If it weren't for these animals the civilized world would not be where it is now. Like it or not you have a lot to thank these animals for.
I would really like you to sit some of our other medal winners next to the equestrian team and ask them if they think their medals are equal, because I think you would be very very wrong.
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PS I am really looking forward to the ice-dancing in Vancouver 2012, and also have enjoyed the synchronised diving - both awarded marks, as in the in freestyle dressage, for artistry and execution. These are all excellent Olympic sports. I don't understand why people are so down on them, especially the dressage. None of the negative postings here have contained convincing arguments.
So please, if you are not into a particular sport, at least don't begrudge other people the enjoyment of watching and/or participating.
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And one more thing, we have medal hopes in the Modern Pentathlon...
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Please drop the argument over which sports should be included and whether dressage is important - horse sports are amongst the oldest in the world and deserve their place in the Olympics. After all our history has been built on his back - and dressage is a big part of any equestrian discipline (or it should be).
Doc_Kev (and others) will not or cannot see or understand this so it's something best left alone. Maybe the dressage is seen to be too elitist, too difficult, or too complicated for many but arguing the toss regarding its merits on here isn't going to improve matters.
There's none so blind as those who will not see.
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Comparing tennis, football, rowing, show jumping, gymnastics, dressage, marathon running, sprinting, hurdling, eventing, yachting, shot putting, diving, pentathlon, archery, shooting etc is just not possible.
Each is very different and to say one is more worthy than another is vacuous and facile in the extreme and demeans the efforts of all people who have striven to be at the top of their sports.
I do not think for one minute any SPORTSMAN/WOMAN would decry anyone else's sport or medal as being less worthy than another's - rather they are likely to find glory and incentive in other's acheivements.
It's a shame some people can't do the same.
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There is an "equestrian" sport which ought to be kicked out of the Olympics and that's Modern Pentathlon. The cruelty of forcing horses to jump a sizeable course several times whilst "ridden" by incompetents is unacceptable - some of the "riders" appear never to have seen a horse except on a plate. I watched for a while but when I found myself cheering because a rider had fallen off (thoroughly well deserved) it was definitely time to switch off.
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50. At 12:32pm on 20 Aug 2008, cd8jbr wrote:
"And if we're talking about sports to exclude - why not exclude sports where drug taking is rife where means people can not compete on a level playing field? At least you won't find any of that in equestrian sports."
Foot in mouth syndrome strikes! Four horse found to be illegally doped. There was a similar problem at the Athens games.
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Well, Doc_Kev doping horses isn't rife for horses or for riders unlike athletics/cycling to name but two. It's a shame that 4 horses out of all those at the games should have had substances rubbed on their legs and those riders should be disqualified from Olympic (and possibly all international FEI competition).
Most, although obviously not all, prize their horses more highly than to dope them because without them they are nothing - literally.
If most sport were as clean as equestrian sports they'd still be a lot better off. After all there are ways humans can, and do, dope themselves to better performances which can't yet be detected although it is known to go on.
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Hopefully anyone who watched the Modern Pentathlon showjumping today will realise the immense skill and ability required to persuade a horse to get you safely over a jump.
Most of these riders were totally unbalanced, jabbing on the reins, not riding positively, so giving the horse confusing signals. No wonder they refused, especially in those conditions.
The GB Modern Pentathlon site says a rider has to be BHSAI standard (which is extremely high) to compete. I only saw Sam Wheale's round, and it certainly didnt look up to that semi-professional level required.
I just hope the horses (as well as riders) were checked over and treated properly after the batterings they received.
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#63 Hardly a fair comparison. As I understand it the Modern Pentalthlon riders have 30 minutes with the horse prior to the showjumping.
It's an interesting point you make regardless. I don't ride horses but I'm prepared to concede that it takes a great deal of skill to "persuade a horse to get you safely over a jump". In essence this describes the role of a good coach. The majority of elite althletes have an excellent coach and the admit that without that guidance and knowledge they would not be the athlete they are. It's a partnership.
I'm unaware of any other coaches being awarded a medal though.
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Doc_Kev
greetings again.
"If you sat Britains bronze medal winning swimmers, rowers, gymnasts and cyclists down, and asked them whether they felt the eventing bronze medals were of equal worth to theirs, I very much doubt they would. "
Didn't we have a similar debate about swimming in general and swimming medals being of equal worth to say athletics?
Didn't you yourself make statements to the effect of "I bet you've never swum 100m fly". The same sort of statements people are now using against you?
Didn't others criticising my argument about swimming multiple medalists being easier to come by also use the same arguments that are now being used against yourself "Doc_Kev (and others) will not or cannot see or understand this so it's something best left alone. ".
I haven't put the above in to ridicule you - merely that it shows that the same sorts of arguments go on all the time on here!
Becasue I do see your point! However, there was an interview with an american modern pentathlete on tv this morning. She had previously represented the USA in swimming (your sport), then switched to triathlon (my sport) and then switched on modern pentathlon. She found the show jumping part as difficult as anything she had done but on a different basis.
Anyway, I must confess I too find dressage boring, but it is part of the games' heritage. If it were being asked to be included in the games today I would argue against it. But its been in the games for 100 years and equestrian offers 6 gold medals in total and that total has been the same since 1924. We are only talking about 6 gold medals after all. Phelps won more than that himself!!! (But I'm NOT starting that debate up again!).
Its why I won't argue about equestrian having its 6 medals but I will argue about synchronised swimming. It has no real heritage in the games and nothing was given up to include it in the games. Unlike BMX (which is coming in for a lot of stick). Cycling had to give up an event (the kilo) in order to have BMX.
As for whether squash etc should be in the games. Well there are many sports which maybe should be in the games but aren't. I'm sure we could all think of ways of fitting new sports in but cleary it would be at the expense of others.
Perhaps, and just perhaps, all sports in the games should look at themselves and ask "do we offer too many medals?" and the answer that I'm sure we'll get is "no. we offer too few".
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We do indeed meet again 1Welshbloke.
I see your arguement about heritage, shooting could make the same claim - I believe this 'sport' was in the original 1896 modern programme. I'd bin all the shooting though, I don't think we should be celebrating the proficient use of a weapon that kills millions - this would free up spaces for more worthy sports. Incidentally I found out that that the summer olympics can have a maximum of 28 sports and 301 events, therefore with this competition between sports a debate on the relative merits is unavoidable.
I like to watch sports where I know the dedication that is required in training, the physical pain, the 6am starts, the 5 hours of training each and every day to excel. Skill and physical excellence should both be requirements.
Incidentally, despite my rants about swimming, that was the sport of my youth. I'm more of a cyclist these days and, working in the peak district with it's many hills, I spent my time looking down on the triathletes you like the flat roads :-D.
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Yes same here - I no longer do triathlon - just cycle to keep fit and do indoor rowing for the same purpose (indoor rowing - almost as bad as trudging up and down the swimming pool - except I can watch TV!!!).
I agree wholeheartedly that my favourite sports are one with an "athletic" element.
One's that get the adrenalin going - as opposed to say shooting and archery - one's where it is better to stop the adrenalin flowing (if you see what I mean).
But as it stands I think the games are the games - I think they need some tweaking. A few events dropped here and there maybe. But hey let's just enjoy them for what they are - a remarkable celebration of sporting excellence across a wide variety of differing sports.
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