When politics matters...
If anyone ever suggests to me that politics doesn't matter, I tell them to remember 9 November. It's a day I will never forget.
Not just because I was lucky enough to stand on top of the Berlin Wall 20 years ago.
Not just because I will never forget the moment I watched a young Berliner jump off the wall into East Germany to hand a flower to one of the troops who, just days before, would have been under orders to shoot on sight anyone who dared to do such a thing.
Not just because when people say the word "freedom", I think of the spontaneous applause which followed and the smiles which broke on the troops' faces.
But also because of a less happy German anniversary. Today marks 71 years since Kristallnacht - the Night of Broken Glass - a night of co-ordinated Nazi attacks on German Jews on which synagogues, homes and businesses were ransacked, dozens of Jews were murdered and thousands arrested and sent to concentration camps.
Luckily, my grandparents - who were German Jews - had fled Berlin already.They taught me that politics mattered.
...and when it risks looking like it doesn't
Much heat has been generated by the front page of today's Sun which highlights the anger of a grieving mother who felt insulted by a handwritten letter of condolence from Gordon Brown which misspelled her son's name. What light is shone by this row?
First, that with grief comes anger.
Second, that there is widespread anger with Gordon Brown in the military.
Third, that the Sun is willing to channel that anger as part of its campaign to be seen to be standing up for "our boys" and to remove Gordon Brown as our prime minister.
Fourth, that Gordon Brown has scruffy handwriting and uses a large black felt pen because he has poor sight in his one functioning eye.
Fifth, that the Downing Street operation has let its boss down by letting this letter leave the building instead of ensuring it was re-written.
So far, so unremarkable.
The reason this is a story is because of the widespread sense of doubt about the continued value of British forces fighting and dying in Afghanistan. The row about this letter and the one about the PM's apparent failure to bow his head at the Cenotaph are proxies for the much wider and much more important debate about whether "our boys" are fighting and dying in vain.
On 9 November of all days, we'd do well to remember that.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~30~RS~)
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He is PM. He is thus meant to a) check things before he signs them and b) show adequate care.
If he has a problem with his sight then he should make sure somebody checks what he does in his role as PM. In this instance he clearly did not take the trouble and was guilty of showing great disrespect. It was not the misspelt name that is offensive but the fact that he could not be bothered to check.
He should be put in a more junior role where he would receive greater supervision in his work.
(Oh, and can somebody take the trouble to check what he signed and what he committed us to when he signed the Lisbon treaty and checking what he signs it clearly "not his strong point").
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So, what exactly are you driving at Nick?
That compared to Kristallnacht and the fall of the Wall, that the constant drip, drip, drip of the dead coming back from a conflict the public is starting to lose support for doesnt amount to a whole heap of beans?
Granted, these were two significant events in history, no-one will quibble that.
But, I sincerely hope you're not belittling the loss of Jamie Janes and the way that events have been handled, not to mention the breaches of protocol, just simply with "well, lets not get too mithered, worst things have happened on this day than your loss."
Not to Guardsman Janes' mother they havent.
I'm sure you arent.
Are you?
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Misspelling a soldier's name is unfortunate and ambiguous body language at the Cenotaph is possibly carelessness but take into account all the gaffs of his prime ministership and you have an exceptionally accident prone and clumsy incumbent who will ensure Labour's worst defeat next year since WW2
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Unremarkable? I don't think so.
Even if Gordon Brown is not capable of writing a letter in proper grown up handwriting and spelling people's names correctly, presumably someone at Downing Street should be able to spell?
The fact that the letter got sent without apparently anyone bothering to check it speaks volumes about how little Brown actually cares about such things.
When our military personnel are dying for his wars, that is simply beyond the pale.
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"The row about this letter and the one about the PM's apparent failure to bow his head at the Cenotaph are proxies for the much wider and much more important debate about whether "our boys" are fighting and dying in vain."
Nick,
No you are wrong. The row is about an idiot of a Prime Minister who we all know couldn't care less about the military and over a number of years has blocked them from getting the resources they need for the job.
Brown is anti-military to the core. That is what the row is about. The lack of courageous political leadership and planning and also the lack of equipment are key reasons as to why so many of our forces are being killed.
This row is about Brown's personal dereliction of duty towards those who have sacrificed their lives.
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You list the catalogue of errors, excluding the spelling mistakes in this letter of condolence and thenm say:
So far, so unremarkable"
This remark is beyond contempt.
The idea that none of this really matters lies at the heart of this government's ever present malaise. If it doesn't matter why hand write the letter in the first place? This just compounds the belief that Gordon Brown can't be bothered.
Well if he casn't be bothered he should stand down and call an election.
He's a disgrace to himself, his party and the country.
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Of course politics doesn't matter.
We live in a country that's increasingly ungovernable. We have anarchy on our streets with increasingly younger kids being done for violent offences.
We work in unhappy workplaces where we're mere numbers, not people. We can't guarantee a job for even a year yet we're allowed to mortgage houses for 25 years.
We are no longer allowed to bring up our children without excessive government intrusion. We aren't allowed to express ourselves freely thanks to liberal P.C.
In 20 years the population will go up by about 15% largely down directly or otherwise to immigration. Our resources will be overstretched - there probably won't be enough electricity to go round let alone medican care. And STILL no one is doing anything about it, with only one political party ready to try.
We're embroiled in unwinnable wars we should have left well alone. The money could have gone toward poorer people and problems in our own country, as could the £7 billion aid to Africa which does nothing to improve the lot of Africans let alone us.
So...what can politics do about all that? Answer: nothing.
Politicians tell lies. They bend statistics. Doesn't matter who is in power. They're in it for that power not the good of society.
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You've hit the nail on the head in your closing paragraphs of this post. I agree with the insightful way you've flagged up recent events as cyphers for a public mood over Afghanistan.
But are there not also issues over leadership here and whether Brown understands that people - and names - matter.
On that letter, I feel you are giving the PM too easy a ride. No matter how much it is spun, isn't the only view that really counts that of the grieving mum?
http://theorangepartyblog.blogspot.com/2009/11/browns-letter-stinks.html
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I think Brown is barely compis mentis at the moment and does not seem to be getting anywhere near the required level of support from his backroom staff - if indeed he will accept help.
I am sure none of the alleged slights were intentional but it all adds to the impression of a man barely in control - it is going to be a long haul to the election.
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This looks to me like part of a typical Sun campaign. Most people (though perhaps not Mrs Janes) knows that Brown's handwriting is poor, and the reason for it. I've looked at the letter, and it's far from clear to me that the 'mistakes' actually exist. Whatever, the answer is obvious - the letters should be typed in future, then the Sun can complain that they are impersonal.
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Again we go back to the sort of people who are advising the PM or not as the numbers of his mistakes continue unabated.
There are some things that are unforgiveable and if the PM has such poor eyesight then he should be accompanied by someone to oversee what he signs or writes at all times.
For instance you would not sign a will unless you knew exactly what you were signing. Comparison must be drawn to the Lisbon Treaty. Had he really read and understood what he signed.
One thing the British always did well was understand the protocol of the occasion. Was Brown told what he should do or did that momentous stubbornness get in the way of proper diligence.
Whatever, it now seems not a day goes by without another Brown cockup. If the job is too much for him there is always the obvious way out.
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Totally agree with all the comments above. Watching the service at the Cenotaph yesterday -- one had to question the nerve of Brown even participating. The nation is tired of his bumbling along, his constant attempts for PR and spin [for example the Berlin Wall speech today], and his "I know what is best for everyone" attitude.
Nick given your connections with No10 isn't it time you gave them a nudge and told them that the country wants an election -- NOW -- before Brown and his team make any further unpopular decisions.
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I am partially sighted and know how difficult it can be making sure when you write something, that it is in the right place on the page or whatever. But the fact that 1. He did not ask someone to check it for him if it is something he struggles with and 2. No one bothered to check it anyway shows a total lack of care on his behalf. Maybe on an internal memo it doesnt matter but for something of this importance, misspellings, crossings out and an apparent lack of care just seem to me to not be the actions of a caring leader. This is not a political point and I don't believe it should be used as such but the anger felt by the family is totally justified and the apology Brown has made is totally necessary.
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Why did the BBC decide to run this as its top story on the 1 o'clock news? It was a non-story about the nasty campaign by The Sun (Murdoch) which is a shocking insight into the power yielded by conglomerates. What happened to democracy? Let the people decide on the true facts, instead of forcing it down their throats.
I never realised that Brown hand wrote letters of condolence - even President Obama doesn't do that. Why is it everything Brown does seems to be wrong?
Could this bias be anything to do with that chap who's now Cameron's press adviser who used to be a tabloid editor? Maybe?
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I must admit I find your assertion that this affair is "so unremarkable" as more than a little insulting... you may just as well have written "yawn".
If this was about some trifling matter then perhaps I could understand it, but this wasn't.
It was a personal letter to the mother of someone who died fighting for his country. This should have been a letter to ease some of the pain that she is feeling. It should have been something that she could draw comfort from in the remaining years of her life.
Anyone can make mistakes, but there are some things where there should be no excuses - this is one of them.
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This sums up all that is lacking in this government and Gordon Brown. Competence ! This lack is shown from the failure to check his letter, to the failure to support the troops in the field,and to his government's mishandling of the economy. The idea of British troops dying ,fighting for the benefit of people who detest and would happily destroy our way of life is indefensible. The suggestion that the British people need to be educated in the reasons for young men dying in Afghanistan is patronising to say the least. All most of the British people want is for the troops to be brought home, and for the people who threaten us in our homeland to be summarily dealt with, and removed from our streets. The idea that somehow the death of fine young soldiers in Afghanistan stops the threat of terror on the streets of Britain is to say the least misleading,and is more probably a deliberate lie designed to justify Labour's fawning to America and lack of care for the armed forces. Let Afghanistan and indeed Pakistan solve their own problems, and if, at a later time they present a threat to us or our allies, then that is the time to take action outside our borders.
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The 'jock' in No.10 will never get my vote. He should not even be in post as no one from England had a vote in his present occupancy.
This is a very unfortunate incident and for the family of the dead soldier a gravely unpsetting experience on top of their grief.
Nevertheless, it is a sad error rather than anything else: Mr Brown has taken the time and trouble to write to each of the bereaved families since his appointment as PM and that says quite a lot about his sense of duty. I understand Mr Brown is the first PM to do so which is also a revelation about all thiose who came before in more recent times (Thatcher could have managed 256? Blair too with Iraq! And what about those poor bl##dy infantry in N.Ireland over 40 years!?)
I cannot agree with some on here writing about his (Brown) war - - it demonstrably is not - - the UK Armed Forces are in Afghanistan as a part of the UN approved and NATO-led campaign against the Taliban and Al Queda which began in 2001-02 - - and as a leading member of NATO the UK led by Blair and then Brown has kept faith with its allies. Mr Cameron has expressed similar commitment.
A lot more than can be said for the half-hearted, head-ducking efforts of the French, Germans etc. who even when their 'rebuilding' only troops come under fire still fail to uphold their NATO commitments. The French wont even send their helicopters to pick-up wounded troops of frontline National forces!
Mr Brown made a monumental personal gaffe and that is to be deplored: Doubtless he will learn from it and as he is visiting the 'Wall/Iron Curtain' remnants today it will give him further time in which to reflect on the sacrifices made by families and those who actively serve the politicians.
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What troubles me is not the poor spelling, or the fact that Mr Brown failed to bow his head at the Cenotaph: it is the evident lack of interest in these tokens within No 10. It is as if 'seeming' to do the right thing (handwriting a letter, turning up at the Cenotaph) is enough. Brown is now widely regarded as gaffe ridden and accident prone, so that there is more need than ever to pay attention to the small things and get them right. You can't anymore - post-expenses and post-Iraq - spin your way into the hearts of the electorate, but you can create your very own gaffe-strewn path out of it!
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I can't believe some of the crass comments people are posting on here just to score political points. I have a son who is serving in the RAF at the moment and god forbid the worst was to happen then in some small way the fact that the prime minister whoever it was had taken the time to write to me would help me feel he wasn't just a number. Yes I can understand how upsetting it must have been for for the family of Jamie to mis spell his name and I am sure as anybody would be he is truly saddened by his mistake. I am also however surprised that they chose to share this most private of moments with the Sun newspaper.
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@9 "I think Brown is barely compis mentis at the moment and does not seem to be getting anywhere near the required level of support from his backroom staff - if indeed he will accept help."
He is clearly not getting much sleep so one has to "make allowances". He seems to realise that he has lost the next election and that is probably weighing heavy on his shoulders - not so much that he is losing his PM position after such a short time in power, but that he is also taking the Labour party down with him. We can only hope he does not have too many important decisions to make between now and the next election.
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I strongly dislike gordon brown and consider him a poor prime minister.
The fuss over this letter though is way over the top and feels artificially manufactured in the grubbiest way.
He's made so many gtenuinely serious mistakes in his 2 years at the helm, that this just pales into insignificance.
I'm not too impressed with the Sun either - as far as i'm concerned they are exploiting the genuine grief & anger of a bereaved mother to push their austaralian/american owners political agenda.
As i say the whole affair is just rather grubby and leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
If they carry on with this style of witchunt they 're going to end up achieving the impossible & geberating sympathy instead of contempt for Mr Brown.
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14#
Its got nothing to do with Coulson. This has been bubbling up for the best part of two or three days.
The Sun just got there first.
Why is it that everything Brown does seem to be wrong?
Because it invariably is.
The US, chances are, has a different protocol to the UK as to how they handle these kinds of situations. No-one is saying that Gordon SHOULDN'T write letters to the families - but crossings out, writing in felt tip pen, getting the name of the deceased wrong - doesn't any one working for him ever check these things so that he doesn't end up with this kind of backlash? Evidently not....
Its not just another handwritten memo to a civil servant, its a message of condolence from a Head Of State to a mother who has lost one of her sons in battle: a kid who is barely 20, had made the ultimate sacrifice.
He, or an MoD minister being at Wootton Bassett for the repatriation may have offered some cold comfort, but this is never going to happen.
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My handwriting is also atrocious and I avoid writing anything but the briefest of memos to office colleagues, so I can sympathize with Gordon Brown in that sense. Where he appears to have erred badly over this letter was in the spelling and grammar mistakes and in not having it checked by aides, indeed Iain Dale is reporting on his blog that Brown often just puts letters into envelopes and sends them out himself without any checking from staff.
Brown should not be castigated for his writing, the result of poor eyesight resulting from a rugby injury, but with that in mind he should have had the letter typed why does it need to be hand written? Or he should have let Downing Street staff review it to prevent something like this from happening. We hear rumours that he is a workaholic who finds it near impossible to delegate and who has an explosive temper, perhaps this is why he has been doing this, he won't delegate and staff are afraid to bring it up?
Another self inflicted wound!
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I feel that Brown's behaviour at the Cenotaph was far worse than the badly scripted letter. Apart from those in uniform who saluted, every person who laid a wreath bowed their heads in respect for the fallen, except for the Prime Minister. Surely he can't have forgotten! This insensitivity was unforgiveable and is one more demonstration that he is totally unworthy of his position.
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19#
Have a look at Sky News where there is a scanned copy of the letter.
If your son is serving, have a think about how you would feel if a) you looked out of the window and saw the service car with two officers getting out of it in their best blues to give you the awful news... and b) then you received a letter like that.
After you'd already had ones from his Squadron commander and the Secretary Of State For Defence.
I for one sincerely hope it doesnt happen to you, or the parents of any other serving member of the forces, but spare a thought for those that it does do.
This isnt about politics, its about honour and respect for the dead.
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jaycee @ 5
"Brown is anti-military to the core"
I agree
one of his good points
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This is not just about Afghanistan, though. If Labour in general and The Crashmeister in particular were not so despised, this sort of story would simply evaporate. Instead, we have BBC news running it as the top story on some of their radio news bulletins.
I have no doubt that Brown did not intend offence with his cack-handed letter, and that he was not intentionally afronting the memory of the fallen by forgetting to bow his head, but they ARE errors. An administration that is in control of the media agenda can put out these fires pretty quickly and easily. One that is in terminal decline simply succeeds in fanning the flames.
Labour's prospects are now utterly hopeless. We have government by Official Opposition and significant parts of the country are bereft of democratic representation because their existing MPs have given up the ghost and are urgently looking for an alternative means of making a crust. On top of that Brown's so-called 'world statesman' role is also in tatters following his disastrous attempt to introduce a 'Tobin' Tax at the G20 Finance Ministers' conference in St Andrews.
Surely the Labour Party must realise we cannot go on like this for another six months?
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@20 Deimos
That is the most worrying aspect - this economic situation needs real clarity of thought and the PM is coming across as being slightly dysfunctional at the moment. His ideas are being dismissed out of hand because no one has any respect for the chap.
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Having seen the letter, a seven year old could do better, and his lack of respect at the reef laying yesterday all I can be thankful for is that he will not be in power next year.
At this special time of year, can I pass on my thanks to the current armed forces and all those that became disabled or gave their lives for us in the past.
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Dear Nick,
My partner is a primary school teacher and she can spot something that has been made with no effort and no care. Can you ask your sources how long it actually took GB to pen this masterpiece, and when he did it?
She also says about how your work reflects what you are and how you feel about the things that you are writing about.
Xxxx
ps
If today you were to stand on a wall, you would be arrested under Health and Safety.
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26. At 2:57pm on 09 Nov 2009, sagamix wrote:
"jaycee @ 5
"Brown is anti-military to the core"
I agree
one of his good points"
What a ludicrous statement. You personally have every right to be anti-military. Brown, on the other hand, is sending these young people out to die for some completely obscure reason, which definitely now involves a great deal of face-saving, and he should give them every possible respect.
Get a grip!
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This has nothing to do with being "anti-military". I am anti-military in that I believe it is log pat the time when the human race should have found better ways of resolving differences by killing each other. It is long past time that we spend out limited resources on arms rather than so many other far more worthwhile calls on our monies.
However, that is not the fault of those individuals who are answering the calls of out warmongering politicians. They deserve our respect for what they are doing even if we disagree with the means our politicians are pursuing actions. The failing of war is the fault of politicians.
And then when those same politicians cannot take the time to write a decent letter when one of those they called-on is killed, taken away from his family and loved ones - well it is worse than disgusting. And then to think a phone call might "patch things up".
This is not related to "anti-military" but to somebody who cannot appreciate what others are sacrificing to help him pursue his wars. It is about caring for others, about feeling "empathy".
I think a return to the times when our leaders led our armies and when it came to war they were in the front of the front lines. Maybe going back to such practice would make our leaders pursue peace a bit more.
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#5 I'll add another dimension to that. The overwhelming majority of thoses killed and wounded are son,fathers and Husbands. Not daugthers,wifes and mothers.
wonder what Harriet would be saying we should have equality there too, I bet not and if more daugthers,wifes ann mothers had been killed wonder what Her reaction would be.
Given she has stated that they are there to improve the lot of the afghan females.
These son,fathers and Husbands are fit to die and be wounded for there masters in power but not fit to be a father, grandfather to there own children or grandchildren in thier own land or even be involved a son with there own fathers and grandfathers.
it was interesting to see the make up of the albert hall last night and the Question Time with the odious BNP on both from london and there was n jerrymandering by the BBC at the alert Hall either
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The events in Berlin during the 20th Century were indeed events that showed the good and bad sides of politics.
However, the more recent events in Downing Street have absolutely nothing to do with politics. This is about a Prime Minister who either doesn't care enough to have his letter checked, or is so arrogant that he doesn't actually care about what he writes. His behaviour at the Cenotaph on Sunday was at worst disrespectful, at best forgetful.
All of this is symptomatic of a man under extreme job-related stress. The mistakes he is making are getting worse and it seems that everyone around him spend much of their time dreaming up excuses for his somewhat erratic behaviour.
Brown's recent comments about the 'transaction tax' that made him something of a laughing stock, are clear symptoms of someone who has lost the plot and needs help, to retire.
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Broon has made a mistake. Why is this news when he has made so many? It would be better news if we discovered he had done something without making a mistake, like tying his own shoelaces. His lack of confidence in himself, his party and the Untied Kingdom is infectious. It has become irrelevant whether he is the architect of the recession, the war or the lack of No. 10’s editorial controls this issue demonstrates. The simple truth is that this great nation will not gain confidence in itself until he is removed from office. Quite frankly, I'm no too bothered how that is done but the prospect of having to wait another 8 months or so is unbearable. A military coup would be almost palatable - if we had any soldiers left.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I di have feel for the mother, as a mis spelling annoys me anyway, but.......... to then go and tell the Sun all about it? For the Sun to shout in its way about the mistake and then to take it out of context?
First shots in the Sun printing "We won the election for the Tories" this is more what is going on.
Yes I am cynical about all of this.... But I will use my vote to as the services, for years in the past have died so I can vote.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"The reason this is a story is because of the widespread sense of doubt about the continued value of British forces fighting and dying in Afghanistan." Well, that's maybe partially true but a lot less than the whole story.
The real reason that this is being treated as a 'story' is that The Sun decided to run with it and use it as a stick to beat Gordon Brown. Having decided to back the Tories this is what they will do on every occasion until the next election. The worst part of the 'story' is that other organs including, to its shame, the BBC have felt they had to trail after The Sun. "Gordon Brown Has Poor Handwriting" wouldn't normally make the lead on the News. Shame on you, BBC.
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32. At 3:09pm on 09 Nov 2009, DeimosL wrote:
And then when those same politicians cannot take the time to write a decent letter when one of those they called-on is killed, taken away from his family and loved ones - well it is worse than disgusting. And then to think a phone call might "patch things up".
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Look, mr brown sent a hand-written letter, in which he made a mistake - but the letter itself was obviously meant as a positive gesture, there was no intention to offend.
Once he became aware of his mistake he then apologised in the most rapid, direct way available to him, by phone.Your'e taking him to task for making the phone call, surely it would be worse if no apology was offered.
As others have pointed out, there is no need for this witch-hunt when mr brown has made so many other mistakes of much greater magnitude.
And as i said earlier, i suspect the Sun has acted extreemely unethically in this matter, no doubt at the prompting of their proprietor. If anybody is lacking respect for our soldiers and the bereaved it is the Sun newspaper for cynically exploiting this womans genuine grief & anger to firstly sell more papers and secondly pursue their australian/american owners political aganda.
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Unusual choice of camera angle in that video. I couldn't see anything. Suggests to me that He did bow a little and they chose to to pick the angle with him obscured by the cenotaph so you couldn't see it.
Enjoy your outrage.
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#22 Fubar
I agree with you as entirely as I disgaree with Saga. However, please note that Gordon Brown is Head of the Government, NOT Head of State, much as he may believe he is entitled to the latter title.
I note with some measure of respect for him that he has apologised to Mrs Janes, though like many I am dismayed by his lack of apparent respect at the Cenotaph. He does just not seem to be aware of what is going on around him. Perhaps he will wake up on Friday to a nasty surprise?
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Yes it is regrettable that Gordon Brown spelt names incorrectly, it should have been proofread, but then we are all guilty of not proofreading our posts aren't we?
It is also regrettable that he didn't bow his head at the Cenotaph yesterday, a reflection I suspect of his poor, or non existent social skills rather than a deliberate snub to our troops.
What is however unforgivable is that as Chancellor and PM he has continually under funded and under provided for troops in Afghanistan whether is is with helicopters, armoured vehicles or the number of troops on the ground, leading to unnecessary deaths and injuries for out troops.
We the British people through our Government have a covenant with the military not to ask them to do a job without the right equipment. This government has singularly failed to deliver in all areas of support.
For that Gordon Brown is not fit to be Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. For that reason and that reason alone, he should resign.
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I confess I'm actually starting to feel sympathetic towards Brown. I've said before that even though I disapprove of more or less everything he's done over the past decade or more, I still believe he's made the majority of his decisions with good intentions.
Similarly, I think it's a bit harsh on him for the press to imply that his actions regarding the letter and the Cenotaph are signs of indifference or malice on his part. Brown might be many things - incompetent, insensitive, tactless, indecisive, etc etc, but I don't think he's malicious. It's reached the point now where he looks like he enjoys being prime minister even less than we do these days, but is ploughing on so as not to go down in history as a quitter as well.
The best solution for everybody would be for him to call an election, now. It won't save his job, but he might just salvage a tiny amount of dignity.
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38. At 3:22pm on 09 Nov 2009, StrictlyPickled wrote:
26 sagaminx
"Brown is anti-military to the core" ..... I agree
one of his good points
==============================
As someone who reads your posts regularly saga, I think you need to explain what you mean this highly offensive remark....
Usually your posts are just mischievous but harmless nonsense but given the topic and nature of this post, I think your comment appears as offensive as it is ill thought out. A PM leading a country in a war, and his anti-military point of view and general contempt for the military is a good thing in your opinion ???? You are a disgrace.
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thats a bit harsh - if saga's anti-military thats up to him, its not a view i share, but its certainly not offensive.
lets not go down the 'if you question the actions of the government/army you are not a patriot' road - its led to some unpleasantness in the US for example.
Personal i see the military as a tool of the state, they and their actions are simply above moral judgement as ulimately they act for the government of the day, who are assumed to be representing the people.
Moral judgements apply to those who initiate the orders themselves, not those who carry them out.
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Yes politics do matter but if you're going to play politics then you need to play it properly.
You do not send such ill prepared and poorly thought through letters to the mothers of soldiers killed in action and nor do you send the sons and daughters of this nation into battle to protect our way of life and our democracy in the first place without ensuring that they are properly and adequately equipped to do the job they were sent to do.
The sad fact that Gordon Brown has let us down in both cases is deeply shameful.
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So, Nick - are you going to express an opinion, or just do a "Simon Cowell" and let the public decide?
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Brown has a lot of bad points and I'm often one being critical to him, but today this criticism of him is plain unfair and below the belt.
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It is well known that Gordon Brown is blind in one eye and has poor eyesight in the other - most sensible people would agree that poor handwriting is understandable in those circumstances. I am sure that if a typewritten letter was sent out, some people would complain that the PM wasn't showing sensitivity and had lost the personal touch.
And as for not bowing at the Cenotaph - the man has a disability - where are the howls of anguish about the veterans in wheelchairs not bowing??
People should get a life and start talking about the things which matter.
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"The reason this is a story is because of the widespread sense of doubt about the continued value of British forces fighting and dying in Afghanistan. The row about this letter and the one about the PM's apparent failure to bow his head at the Cenotaph are proxies for the much wider and much more important debate about whether "our boys" are fighting and dying in vain."
I disagree; the reason this is a story is because it illustrates with perfect clarity that our unelected PM is not just a bit careless, or a bit clumsy, or that he has bad eyesight, but that he's utterly without any sense of humanity whatsoever.
Nobody with any humanity would have sent out that letter as it was, or refused to bow/nod at the cenotaph. These were actions of someone who's not just out-of-touch, but who's utterly inhuman.
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pickled @ 38
that he doesn't have a great deal of respect for the Military, I class as a Good Thing ... a "feature" not a "bug" in IT parlance
the thing I dislike more than almost anything else in Political Leaders is when they have too much respect (and ANY is too much) for the "Powers That Be" a.k.a. the Establishment; Brown's kowtowing to the City, for example, has a lot to do with why we are where we are
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The BBC yet again rushes to defend the indefensible ie the fact that this incompetent Prime Minister is not up to the job.
In Nick's blog and the one o'clock news much is made of the poor state of the eyesight of the Prime Minister and the anti-Brown stance of the Sun.
The facts are that the Prime Minister mis-pronounced this brave soldier's name in the Commons and made at least 6 spelling or grammatical errors in the letter to his mother.
For unbiased reporting tune in to Sky news who are detailing all the Prime Minister's mistakes on this issue without spin.
Finally, or the BBC's chief political editor to state "So far, so unremarkable" in this context is breathtaking. Does no one at the BBC recognise the mood of the country and the frustration of being governed by incompetents?
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"My partner is a primary school teacher and she can spot something that has been made with no effort and no care. Can you ask your sources how long it actually took GB to pen this masterpiece, and when he did it?"
What a stupid, crass point. You're a classic example of this level of classless attack.
I assure you, Thatcher, Major, Bush, Obama - they do/did not even write their own letters. They were signed, typed copies, probably done by some cronie in Whitehall. Bush did not even sign his. They were computerized signatures.
Sending individual letters for war dead is not on a leaders remit. Brown has gone above and beyond what other leaders do. And almost certainly does this sort of thing in the small amount of spare time he has in a day.
There is a lot of ignorance on spelling:
1: The mistakes are questionable. I'd say many of them are just speculating on his bad handwriting.
2: Handwriting is motor neuron based. What we think we are writing, doesn't always make the page. Luckily, when you have 2 working eyes, you proof read every single word you write, as you write it. When you are basically half blind, this isn't so easy.
I suggest a few of you try writing with your eyes closed, and see what happens.
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please let's not endure any more drivel from The Sun about how it supports our troops. Its parent company does as much as it can to avoid paying tax, denying us hospitals and schools, and soldiers, helicopters and kit.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1999/02/99/e-cyclopedia/302366.stm
...and they've been at it for years according to the BBC
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i am afraid this is just another total mess up from a man whose brain has long since departed.There will be far more between now and an election in the spring.The country is like a ship just left to drift rudderless.Quite frankly if her majesty had anything about her she would disolve parlaiment,lives are being lost and the country is falling apart from economy to crime.This cannot be allowed to continue
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Politics is cynical. Especially conservative politics. It's all based on hate and insult.
Being a tory media outlet is merely looking for minute mistakes, hyping them up ten fold, and then feeding them to the baying mob for political effect.
Only the smarter voters actually understand how it works, and are cynical about anything they read in The Sun or The Mail.
The Sun have got it wrong though. The tone of their own message boards is "this has gone too far". A lot of messages are even calling the paper "a bully". Have a read yourself.
The Sun does influence politics. But both ways. Personally, I really question anything the paper does, and any criticism of Brown like this, endears me towards the guy. As I'm thinking:
"Why should an itelligent person vote the way The Sun wants me to".
Sometimes the attacks are quite valid and fair. Anything like this, about "our boys", are normally an own goal for me.
Is Cameron being the voice of the sun actually a good thing? I don't know. I think it probably turns off as many people as it attracts.
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The "so unremarkable" comment clearly didn't mean that it was unimportant, just that it was fairly straight forward, and that the real issue was the slow burn of dissatisfaction over the war.
I don't know what Brown's opinion of the military is, but then I doubt any of you do either, most of these replies are a master class in guesswork and bias (by the way I have disliked New Labour since the start, though I am not sure yet whether I dislike Cameron more or not), but bear in mind that Brown takes the time to write the note by hand (albeit badly, but my writing is pretty awful too). Clearly his office support has failed by letting the letter go out, but a hand written note is more than you would get in most countries.
I completely appreciate Mrs Janes' anger, but I am disgusted by the Sun's hijacking of it for Rupert's agenda.
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"What is however unforgivable is that as Chancellor and PM he has continually under funded and under provided for troops in Afghanistan whether is is with helicopters, armoured vehicles or the number of troops on the ground, leading to unnecessary deaths and injuries for out troops.
We the British people through our Government have a covenant with the military not to ask them to do a job without the right equipment. This government has singularly failed to deliver in all areas of support.
For that Gordon Brown is not fit to be Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. For that reason and that reason alone, he should resign.
"
Sky nine
You start off quite nicely, and then slip into "the voice of The Sun".
Not to be cynical, but the Army has never been well funded. Labour increased funding hugely in their time in power.
The tories were notorious for defence cuts
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and further to these subtle visual clues as to what someone's "all about" ... do you remember Brown going to his first few big "City Dinners" and how he made a point of not going Penguin?
much a Hooting a Tooting ensued, as I recall
but did that mean that he didn't "fall in" when it mattered?
exactly
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"You do not send such ill prepared and poorly thought through letters to the mothers of soldiers killed in action and nor do you send the sons and daughters of this nation into battle to protect our way of life and our democracy in the first place without ensuring that they are properly and adequately equipped to do the job they were sent to do.
"
Wee Scamp
There are a group of people who understand life, and a group who don't, so take The Suns words on things.
I'd like to inform you that Brown is the first leader (certainly since the 1960s) to write personal notes to victims families. It is not in the remit, and neither Thatcher or Major did it.
You see how The Sun works. They have twisted the first leader to write personal notes (a nice gesture) to trying to connote that they are lazy.
As I said, some people believe the words, some don't
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On the subject of the Berlin Wall, and indeed upon every subject under the sun, persons of fairly open mind tend to consider both sides of the story, which, unaccountably, one does not find in Mr Robinson's piece, which instead contains an emotionally charged linkage to Kristallnacht, on the pretext that he is making the point that politics matters, which, needless to say, is unassailably and self-evidently true.
Because politics matters, we must have both sides of the Berlin Wall story - must we not? - as politics without two opposing accounts is precisely the state of affairs that one might complain of in relation to the totalitarian nature of both the German Democratic Republic and the Third Reich.
We know that the capitalist account is that the nasty commies - and do particularly note the attempt at subliminal association with the nasty Nazis in Mr Robinson's article - could only have built the wall because, being nasty, they could not abide the thought of people being free and knowing the truth, the truth being apparently what the BBC says it is. But what is the non-capitalist view of the construction of the Berlin Wall? There is one. So why not mention it, particularly if it can easily be dismissed in the scintillatingly glowing light of the capitalist version of history, capitalism being the fount of all goodness and every blessing, except when it is not, of course, as now in the present depressing recession which is making so many people unemployed who within a communist state would not be unemployed?
The GDR was faced with two problems essentially, or so it is argued on its behalf:
1. Before the wall was constructed West Berlin was engaged in harassing East Berlin by means of a campaign of recruitment of professionals and highly qualified workers which the communist state had gone to the trouble and expense of educating and training. This eventually caused serious production problems and a labour shortage. As the New York Times reported in 1963, "the construction of the Berlin Wall caused West Berlin to lose about 60,000 well qualified workers who had been commuting every day from their homes in East Berlin to their work places in West Berlin." Note that the report acknowledges that all these people were apparently content to remain domiciled in a socialist state to enjoy the social security and community support provided by it while reaping for themselves the pecuniary benefits of employment in a capitalist economy without apparently being tempted to leave the GDR on a permanent basis although they were free to do so at that time.
2. In the 1950s the American Cold Warrior occupiers of West Berlin launched a campaign of sabotage and subversion against the GDR, the purpose of which was to undermine its economy and government. The CIA and US military espionage services recruited, trained and financed activists to do this work for them individually and in groups with a view to weakening support for the GDR government.
Although building a wall might go some way to addressing these problems, it is clear that it created others and played into the hands of the West, for which West Berlin was a foot in the communist door, eventually to prise it open and knock down the house. What is the result of knocking this house down? Go and ask the many thousands of unemployed and homeless people in the eastern European states, who, when these states were communist, were neither unemployed nor homeless.
Twenty years after the fall of the communist bloc the capitalist system is in a shambles which it seems unlikely to survive in its present form. Let us consider celebrating that as more and more of us enjoy the capitalist freedom to lose our livelihoods, our homes and our self-respect as the rich get richer and speculate away on the stock markets with taxpayers' money, creating another monster speculative bubble, which will burst in due course inevitably, leading many of us to envy the citizens of the German Democratic Republic and Hungary and so forth who all had jobs and homes and the fraternal solidarity of their fellow citizens, which is arguably worth somewhat more than the freedom to be exploited by casino capitalists for whom the recession is merely an opportunity to speculate more profitably at the expense of those to whose welfare and well-being they are wholly indifferent.
As post-Soviet Russians say, what the communists told us about communism was false, but what they told us about capitalism was true. Totalitarian communism failed, and casino capitalism is failing now. When the bubble bursts, stand well back and take cover.
As for the paltry subject of poor Mr Brown and his various misadventures in darkest England, you do enjoy being beastly to that poor man, don't you?
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Clown, letter, Cenotaph, sums up NU LIEBOUR perfectly. A mess from beginning to end just like their 12 long, long, long, years, OF TRYING TO RUN THE UK, AND FAILING dismally.
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Nick, it seems you have done it again. Half way down reading this blog, I realised where it was going to end up. That you can put the collapse of the Berlin Wall in the same piece as Browns latest blunder probably answers the question as to why politics has dropped down most peoples agenda.
When on the wall 20 years ago, did you fall and hit your head sir?
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42#
The surreal thing is that it could all have been avoided.
Mrs Janes' would no doubt have taken more comfort from a dictated, printed signed letter, had Gordon's moral compass felt it absolutely necessary to say something. Thats all. Just checks and balances and a bit of forethought. Again, its not necessarily the sentiment that has let him down, but the carrying out of the sentiment, the implementation.
The Cenotaph... well. Seems to run within the party doesnt it? Michael Foot in 83, now this... and what Blair was doing there is beyond me. What capacity was the War Criminal there in? EU President-Elect?
And for those of you who are defending Gordon by attacking Murdoch - I dont excuse Murdoch's agenda and as I refer above, it would have been so simple to negate the effects of this that a child could have done it - but to go blaming the family is pathetic and low and does your cause no good whatsoever.
The parents are obviously grief stricken at losing a son at barely 20 years old, despite the fact that knowing that serving presents occupational hazard such as this - and she has two other sons also serving. In times of grief, sometimes people lash out, particularly if, for whatever reason something could have prevented their loss. Rightly or wrongly, the age of the stiff upper lip is in the past. Their outburst I can forgive and at the moment their loss is still raw.
Brown apparently has written to every family of every service person losing their life in action since he took over as PM. So, that makes it well over a hundred, easily. And this is the first one to have this result? So, how come this went so badly pearshaped?
Or have none of you lot who are so quick to rush to Gordons' defence ever suffered a sudden and unexpected bereavement?
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Sounds like all this letter writing and Cenotaph stuff are pecadillos that show just how much the media and public at large really care about the state this country's in. Or is it that they simply don't know? I mean, the country almost bankrupt, anarchy on our streets, wars we shouldn't be in that are positively sapping our resources. We have a serious immigration problem that'll REALLY sap our resources in 10 years' time. The extremists are at it again and America has now sussed that Al Qauda isn't in Afghanistan, it's everywhere...
...and this letter writing (which it does not take a Philadelphia lawyer to tell you was never intended to offend; rather it was a well-meant gesture) and not bowing his head at quite the correct number of degrees below the horizontal to be SEEN to be respectful, are news HEADLINES???
What? People have lost their sense of perspective!
I'm quite happy to voice my views of Brown and his many mistakes but worrying about the minutiae while the world's falling apart around us is sad. It would take something like a war on our soil to bring us all together again and focus us on truly important issues.
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MN @ 52
"When you use the exact same rhetoric to attack on “handwriting” as you do on “national debt” then you kind of give the impression that your agenda isn’t policy. Just a deep seated hatred"
spot on, Mike
sexy blogging
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@49
"And as for not bowing at the Cenotaph - the man has a disability - where are the howls of anguish about the veterans in wheelchairs not bowing??"
I wasn't aware that his disability stops him inclining his head.
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52 Mike_Nalor
We all think that you are part of the Labour Party establishment, would you like to comment on your status and background?
You write:
"Thatcher, Major, certainly didn’t do that in our previous conflicts. Their cronies wrote computerized letters, and they merely signed them."
Would you like to either substantiate your comments or withdraw them? If indeed you are professionally involved with the Labour Pary or a member of it you have added to the furore.
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One more thing, please dont tell me why this has become a story. You are not in a position to TELL me why a story is a story. You just report the facts and I will decide with my own thoughts why this is a story.
I am certain Brown is not a malicious person, I am also sure that he felt the personal touch would be a good thing for a parent to recieve. It does not take away the fact that he failed that parent in not even getting the name right. That is why it is a story.
Attention to detail is key in all walks of life and in this case death! Making these stupid defences of him is what dumbs down politics, not politics itself.
I was always told that in a rut, make sure every piece of work that leaves your desk is the best piece of work you have ever done, that way people know you are on the ball. Maybe yourself and the PM should think like this.
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Sagamix:
I, for one shall never take anyhting you say seriously ever again.
How can you possibly come on these posts with your anti BNP, anti racist stance and simultaneously claim no interest in our military?
Who was it who held Hitler to account in the second world. How would you propose we should do it agian if faced with a similar facist or communist threat?
Your comments have often stretched imagionation but this degree of inconsistency goes a long way to explaining the impasse in which newlabour has found itself; so obssessed with polls they have totally lost the thread about the serious issues faced by this country.
If you try to weave every single argument into a poll leading ideology you will end up with the same inconsistent mess that is exactly where you and this government have landed.
You want to be hard on racists and the BNP but you give us no tools with which to fight the cause in the future.
Hopeless inconsistencvy and why newlabour are no longer fit to govern this country.
Casll an election.
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49#
A disability? Now I've really seen some excuses.... The veterans who were marching past yesterday, some of those were disabled, some of whom had lost limbs, rather than their eyesight. Not that I'm belittling the blind, but I'm not making excuses for them either like you are.
If Her Maj, in her 80's can follow the protocol so can Brown.
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@51
"that he doesn't have a great deal of respect for the Military, I class as a Good Thing ... a "feature" not a "bug" in IT parlance"
So, according to your warped sense of honour, it is perfectly acceptable for the man to have no respect for those he sends out to die. Particularly as the reasons for the current action in Afghanistan are so obscure. You really have lost the plot.
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I read the Gordon Brown story in the Sun this morning and was disgusted by it. It was incompetent but not malicious.
Often times pride and nobility can be derived from saying nothing at all. If that were my mum, I would have been utterly ashamed of her conduct in feeding Gordon Brown to the lions. Her son has died and, for that, she deserves a free pass. But, she should look back and feel remorse in days and weeks to come for her disgusting behaviour.
This demagoguery is appalling but the Sun knows a vitriolic attack of the PM is a sure way to garner support from the ignorant majority. It is not worthy of a front page story and it no broader context.
I am glad to see some at the BBC appreciate that pandering to the ignorant majority and showing a flagrant disregard for the facts is not objective journalism.
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45 goldcaesar
"thats a bit harsh - if saga's anti-military thats up to him, its not a view i share, but its certainly not offensive."
================================================
Saga is perfectly entitled to his anti-military view, but he is not the Prime Minister of a country that is at war, so it doesn't matter that much.
Gordon Brown however is the PM of a country at war, and the "anti-military" view - which saga seems to believe is a good idea for our leader to have - is a very serious issue indeed.
The letter which Brown wrote is only one small, but important, part of how he views the military, but is a symptom of a much wider problem. Most people on here seem to feel that Gordon Brown letter is offensive, and some are dismissive of it...... but only saga seems to think that the real attitude behind it is a good idea. I really do find that offensive.
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Naylor, you're pathetic. I'd check your facts if I were you about the family handing over the letter for money.
SimonInverness: dont go trying to pull that line either. Its this blasted PM, HIS tax regime as Chancellor which has permitted this to happen over the last 12 years. Dont go giving us that bulldust about depriving us of nurses (for a change), helicopters and christ knows what else.
Blasted trolls.... They're like bloody hyenas.
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My 11 points:
1: The Sun do use death and grief to score party politics hits. Their backing of “our boys” is one of the most depressingly ironic things in the media. Their policy on the army is generally determined on which government is in power.
They were notorious for celebrating and glamorising war “Gotcha”, and whitewashing death, during the Falklands, to back Mrs. Thatcher, and keep public support for her.
They use war and death to score political points. They always have. Their backing for war is totally dependent on who is in power.
2: Governments skimping on Army spending is nothing new. The forces have always been hugely under funded, and targets for cuts. Especially the tories times in office.
As above, this is only headline news for tory papers, dependent on who is in office.
3: Terrible own goal by The Sun. Even their own readers are commenting on “why this is a story” and calling it a petty attack, on their message boards. The only thing the Sun has done, has shown that Brown spends his personal time writing messages, and that he struggles with handwriting as he is half blind. What a scoop.
4: There is no remit for leaders to write personal messages to the fallen. As far as I’m aware, Brown’s probably the first leader to do it in the UK, in modern times. Thatcher, Major, Blair just sent out signed, typed correspondence. Probably whipped up by some Whitehall Admin Assistant.
The Sun has no shame in calling it “hastily written”. In writing it he has gone above and beyond that their darling Thatcher did.
5: The Sun have exploited this women, for headline news. But at the same time, I question anyone who is allowing these sort of personal messages into the tabloid press.
6: Brown has lost one son in the last few years, and the other has cerebal paulsy. I think it’s pretty callous to go on the attack about his “lack of grief” and “understanding” because he struggle with handwriting.
7: Blind people often suffer from lack of motor neuron skills. Just like deaf people struggle to speak (as they can’t hear what they are saying) blind people struggle with visible hand eye coordination.
In laymans terms, your body struggles with any skill, no matter how easy, if you can’t “check” what you are doing.
Deaf people can’t “check” what they are saying, so struggle with speech. It’s exactly the same with blind people.
Writing is your brain sending signals to your hands. It’s not flawless. The only reason most people don’t struggle with spelling is the basis that they check every single letter they are writing, instinctively. It’s a process of proof reading, letter by letter, visually. That’s what spelling is.
“I’ve written an A, is that right? yes. I’ve written an N to follow, is that right? Yes. I’ve written a D to follow. Is that right? Yes”
That’s how writing and spelling works. If you take away the ability to do these checks, it’s pretty obvious.
An attack on a blind persons spelling – as I said, you may as well be laughing at a deaf person, as they can’t pronounce words properly.
Poor form.
8: You can attack too much. And the more petty the attacks, the less people start to listen. Which goes for you as well voters. When someone is using the same ferocity to criticise spelling as they are public debt, people start to question the agenda.
9: I question The Sun’s influence. Reading message boards on tory papers like The Mail and The Sun itself, more people are feeling sorry for Brown over this than criticizing him. The consensus point being:
”He takes time to write personal letters at least. Lay off”
10: I personally wouldn’t vote for anyone who stands for “Sun values”. I think their criticism of Brown probably makes the guy more elect able, not less.
In all honesty, doesn’t Cameron suffer from the “plastic/pr” image enough without those lot cheesing it up even more?!
11: When you hire an ex Sun editor like Coulson to run your media campaign, expect tabloid sleaze like this.
Are you thinking about Cameron backing out of a euro vote at the minute? No. Job done.
Sleaze like this would have been saved up for weeks, to use, to get attention off of Cameron. And with Coulson running the sleaze, it’s hardly surprising that it’s some cheap shot on the back of “our boys” yada yada yada
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It is interesting that Gordon Brown a Labour Prime Minister had difficulty in getting it right at The Cenotaph. I seem to remember that a former Labour Prime Minister, Michael Foot, also failed to reach the required standard at The Cenotaph because he was inappropriately dressed for the occasion. Must be a Labour thing !
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"I disagree; the reason this is a story is because it illustrates with perfect clarity that our unelected PM is not just a bit careless, or a bit clumsy, or that he has bad eyesight, but that he's utterly without any sense of humanity whatsoever.
Nobody with any humanity would have sent out that letter as it was, or refused to bow/nod at the cenotaph. These were actions of someone who's not just out-of-touch, but who's utterly inhuman."
50
I disagree. It demonstrates how petty, and agenda driven most of the attacks on Brown generally are.
If you make as much fuss on handwriting, as you do Labour policy, people start taking your words with a pinch of salt.
Your sensationalistic words, are an answer to the question "who the heck believes anything The Sun says".
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michaelbri:
here, here.
Parliamnet should be dissolved by Her Majesty.
This buffoon is sending innconet men to their deaths in Her name, without the necessary equipment and attempting to look like he cares with individual letters to their families when they are killed.
'Disingenuous' is the word that springs to mind. And it applies to much of the newlabour agenda from equality to multi culturalism.
Call an election.
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#54 Mike Naylor
It seems to me that you must be a member of Gordon Brown's PR team because every time there is any sort of criticism of him on this blog, you go on the attack justifying everything he has done wrong. My guess is that you are one of a large number of people who spend time dreaming up responses to the ever increasing mistakes Brown is making.
In #54 you used Brown's poor eyesight as an excuse for his poor handwriting. Hogwash! My Grandmother was 94 when she died having been born and brought up in a working class family in Liverpool. Later in her life she developed cataracts in both eyes but was able to write totally legible clear letters to me when I was a serving soldier.
Brown is university educated and there is no excuse for the total laziness he has shown when writing this letter.
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"For unbiased reporting tune in to Sky news who are detailing all the Prime Minister's mistakes on this issue without spin.
Finally, or the BBC's chief political editor to state "So far, so unremarkable" in this context is breathtaking. Does no one at the BBC recognise the mood of the country and the frustration of being governed by incompetents?
"
Hahaha that's made my day.
A person that has yet to realise that "For unbiased reporting tune in to Sky news who are detailing all the Prime Minister's mistakes" is actually the biased reporting!
That's my issue with right wing voting. They don't seem to get the fact that constant attacks on one party, are not the "balanced view".
People seem to think it's biased to actual cover stories from all angles.
Sky News is about as unpartisan of the sun. They censor out any liberal view points from their message boards.
I was reading an article yesterday about Browns idea for bank taxes, that he stated quite clearly were very provisional, and conditional on gaining support.
SKY news said something like "a humiliating snub for brown, that will surely bring back the question of his handling of the economy".
You know, that could be a Sun article!
As I said, right wing voters just want to read attacks. And get offended by anyone who doesn't join in with it
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You're right about politics not mattering - and that's the sad part. For a great many people politics doesn't matter nearly as much as X Factor, the vacuous actions of celebrities or shopping. How much actual "political" content does The Sun feature compared to all this rubbish?
As much as I think Gordon is a waste of space I do feel that this is nothing more than Murdoch flexing his muscles in a bid to show his influence and, of course, make more money, a disproportionately low amount of which will contribute to the Exchequer.
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"For unbiased reporting tune in to Sky news who are detailing all the Prime Minister's mistakes on this issue without spin"
Angus
Sky News are undoutabely the most biased, spin ridden news company in the country.
It only doesn't offend you so, on the basis that it's saying something you want to hear. Unlike this.
You know, when it's owned by the same company that owns the sun, and has people like Kelvin McKenzie as regular columnist (a guy who thinks anyone who doesn't vote tory is a trotsky-esque socialist).
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I think this just demonstrates how agenda driven most right wing attacks on brown are.
When you come out with the same bile on handwriting as you do spending cuts, then it's hard to take your words that seriously. Sun and voters.
The only 2 outlets taking it seriously are The Sun and Sky News. Cameron's print and TV propoganda outlets.
Tells you a bit about:
A: How important it is.
B: Where the story probably originated from
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Sky News normally moderates out left wing views (seriosuly, you could send 100 comments and none would make it on to their web site) but looking at the messages, most of them actually support Brown.
Which tells you what a gaff this move was by The Sun/Coulson
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get rid @ half C
"the reason this is a story is because it illustrates with perfect clarity that our unelected PM is not just a bit careless, or a bit clumsy, or that he has bad eyesight, but that he's utterly without any sense of humanity whatsoever. Nobody with any humanity would have sent out that letter as it was, or refused to bow/nod at the cenotaph. These were actions of someone who's not just out-of-touch, but who's utterly inhuman "
you know how I sometimes make out my "Clown" moniker is a bit of light hearted fun?
well sometimes it is
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"The row about this letter and the one about the PM's apparent failure to bow his head at the Cenotaph are proxies for the much wider and much more important debate about whether "our boys" are fighting and dying in vain."
No Nick, it actually shows the level of incompetence that this miserable failure has descended to. He could not even pass basic spelling and handwriting tests. This once great country needs to see the back of this disastrous, dishonest, disgraceful and dithering fool as soon as possible.
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The gaff really being, the only time and place you would have got a handwritten prime ministerial letter in the last 40 years, if your child died in war, was from Brown's Labour party.
Thanks for revealing that to the world Rupert. Makes Brown look pretty compassionate if you ask me
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I think what everyone is trying to articulate is that this letter (if it is as shown on Sky News) was not fit for purpose. It is NOT respectful because it appears to have been written hastily and carelessly, whether that is the case or not is irrelevant the letter should not have been sent in that form.
We are talking of a letter from our leader (whether we want him to be or not) to the family of a fallen hero, and believe me I think that is the right word, again whether we believe in the ultimate cause or not. The letter represents us all and many of us would never have sent such a document.
This reaction to the style and form of the letter to Jamie Janes' family reflects the way we are all feeling about many things that the government have done recently in our names, about the lack of respect for others that seems to permeate our government and therefore our society. The letter is a material confirmation of our current view of politics in The UK.
The perception of the Cenotaph incident is just a continuation. The bowing of the head should have been unambiguous as was that of the Queen.
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#39 they are now going to reap there own whirl wind, dance with the devil and you'll die by the sword.
Often Blair and CO used the sun for there own ends re
Blunkett and Straw when Blair wanted a good story to bury the bad news the sun wanted to print, see C4 dispatches and Blunkett talking about this.
The there was the infamous Leo blair kidnapp plot to destroy father 4 juctice.
New labour getting a taste of there own medicine.
But agree this is not good for democracy one little bit, but we need some massive changes in this area just like the banks
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I wish people would give Gordon Brown a break. He is writing to all families who have suffered a loss and writing these letters by hand. I appreciate that mistakes were made in the letter, but these are clearly not deliberate attempts to add insult for the loss. This is typical media attempts to raise public anger by taking a grieving mothers comments and launching another attack on the PM. If the prime minister finds writing so difficult on account of poor handwriting and eyesight, then the sentiment behind these letters is even greater. This is typical of the attacks that the prime minister receives - would they prefer Gordon Brown making no attempts to personally send his sympathies to grieving families of the armed forces? The answer is again no - seems like nothing sells papers like bad news and attacking people trying to be sincere.
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50 Getridofgordonnow wrote:
I disagree; the reason this is a story is because it illustrates with perfect clarity that our unelected PM is not just a bit careless, or a bit clumsy, or that he has bad eyesight, but that he's utterly without any sense of humanity whatsoever
Yes, and apparently he spits on disabled people when he passes them in the street.
Get a grip! Those who dislike Brown can just about contort themselves into a position where this is a valid anti-Brown news story. But take it too far, as any contortionist knows, and you look ridiculous.
I think it's rather touching that he cares enough to hand-write a letter. As for not bowing at the Cenotaph (if he didn't, which is far from clear) - well he is a bit stiff.
Noticed how a few voices of sympathy are creeping in? Could be the Sun wot overdone it.
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Poor Gurdon Browm.
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#21 I agree with.
Brown may be rubbish, but there is a danger of overdoing the vilification and generating sympathy instead.
In fact I feel some sympathy for him myself - he takes the time to produce a hand-written letter and makes a mistake in the spelling (and also in not finishing words properly, which does suggest a slap-dash attitude more than the spelling) and is castigated for this.
I do have to wonder if the letters were genuinely from the heart or another attempt at cheap posturing. We will probably never know, but history offers some clues.
The state of education in this country we don't have enough people who could write a dictionary, let alone know much of teh contents of one, but it does seem symptomatic of the "I know best" mentality of Brown that he would simply chuck it in an envelope unchecked. I wonder how many of Santa's little helpers would want to tell him that he mis-spelled something, or that his grammar was wrong. Especially when he has to rewrite a whole handwritten letter. He doesn't strike me as the type to say "Oh ok, well spotted - thanks for that".
And 9th November... interesting... that's what I always think of when someone talks to me about "9/11". I ask... "So what happened on the 9th of November then?".
After all, I'm British, not American, and I realise that days are smaller units than months (which are smaller units than years). Therefore 9/11/2001 is the 9th of November.
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Now let's get to the real issue out there:
The Sovereign can't open the new session of parliament because she knows this parliament is guilty of financial impropriety.
If she opens it knowing this to true she automatically condones it.
Parliament is guilty of financial impropriety and we are going to sit and watch the Sovereign reopen it? Parliament organised a system of personal financial gain and attempted to withold information about it from the taxpayers who elected it. More importantly the man who resisted was Gordon Brown.
This letter from constitutional campaigner Malcolm Blair-Robinson has been sent to all three party leaders today but particularly Gordon Brown has been asked to dissolve parliament to resolve the issue.
Let's see him send a hand written letter to Her Majesty explaining his position on this one. And let's hope he gets her name right.
Dissolve parliament.
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Nick
Regarding the letters he writes to the families of dead soldiers. Firstly, good on him to do so with a personal touch. Secondly his approach to his difficulty in seeing properly by using a felt pen so he can see words better is not ideal.
He ought to use a conventional pen but with a magnified sheet with light which will enable him to see better:
http://www.connevans.co.uk/store/viewProduct.do?id=1072519
These are frrequently used in specialist areas such as intricate map reading. I am surprised that the medical people who we are told treat hm on a regular basis have not suggested this. As I get older reading is getting harder and you should use whatever aids are available.
Unfortunately Brown does not do the "take advice thing" very well as has been apparentin so many different areas. As a last resort he could always ask his wife or an assistant to write the letter and he could personally sign it, I do not see anything wrong with that.
PS Am not a Brown supporter.
PPS Good article Nick, coincidentally have just read two books about the two events in question. Although they were fiction a lot of historical fact was covered and were both very moving. Too often we gloss over anniversaries with a soundbite or clip from some movie, the learning bit from history is sometimes left at the wayside. For the record the books were "Second Violin" by John Lawton and "Brandenburg" by Henry Porter.
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Murdock has trawlled through the archives and come across the smear over Michael Foot's jacket and thought, let's give it another run.
Murdock attacked one of the good men of Parliament then, and is willing to do the same to another. The sad thing is that he can get away with it because the great British public swallow it, without a thought as to why Murdock wishes to have power in so many countries?
Reading some of today's postings suggest that it really wouldn't take much for a newspaper to turn us into a hateful country, willing to believe anything served up to us as fact. How many people have stated they don't like Gordon Brown, and yet have probably never met him, just believed what has been told to them by an Australian/Amercan newspaper proprietor.
The British people or maybe it is just we English have lost our ability to think for ourselves and come to judgements of people by what we actually know of them. We seem to have become mindless slaves to the media. Few take an active role in politics, so have no idea what is required to organise society or the influences that are working away in the background interfering with the process of government.
Has anyone considered how many ex-Etonians are beavering away in Whitehall on behalf of Cameron, a fellow, old boy?
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#76 C'mon Fubar they avoid tax. You know they do, hardly patriotic is it?
He's made terrible decisions as chancellor and now prime minister, but let's not let News International take any moral high ground. They deny the public purse as much as they possibly can.
No representation without taxation
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"The reason this is a story is because of the widespread sense of doubt about the continued value of British forces fighting and dying in Afghanistan."
Rubbish - the reason this is a 'story' is that the BBC has a clear agenda, which is that it aims to sow doubt about any armed conflict which involves British troops, and also aims to undermine the resolve of the British public.
So now Gordon Brown can't make an honest mistake, everything has to be 'an insult', which leaves people 'horrified' or whatever. I appreciate that losing a son in the conflict is a terrible thing, but the BBC just lap it up when people complain like this.
You only have to have heard Jon Sopel's report on the BBC news last night (Remembrance Sunday) to see the BBC agenda clearly. It was less of a news report and more of an opinion piece. Sopel was quite obviously of the opinion that we shouldn't be in Afghanistan. He couldn't even report on the Remembrance service at the Army's Afghan base without reminding us that another two servicemen had been killed while it was taking place, something that had already been reported by the BBC.
What would Sopel have made of the casualty numbers in WW2? Thank goodness we didn't have these characters around in the 1940's to question every move that the War Cabinet made, or we'd have just given up and let Hitler roll over us.
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The "Sun" report is so obviously a shot in Murdochs avowed intention to support the Tories.
The errors in the letter are most unfortunate and a good example of a "road to hell" happening. He meant well.
My worry is that if,for all the reasons given, GB has trouble with writing surely he has the same trouble with figures. I hope part of the mess we are in isnt down to badly written or misread figures.
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I have read several comments on here from NewLabour apologists attacking the tactics of "The Sun" over this episode.
May I just say you are all a bunch of hypocrites who were quite happy to take the Murdoch thirty pieces of silver over the last 12 years whilst "The Sun" was supporting Labour.
Now the tables are turned, you all start bleating.
Pathetic.
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41. At 3:29pm on 09 Nov 2009, dhwilkinson wrote:
Unusual choice of camera angle in that video. I couldn't see anything. Suggests to me that He did bow a little and they chose to to pick the angle with him obscured by the cenotaph so you couldn't see it.
Enjoy your outrage.
===
Clearly you either didn't watch it live yesterday or you suffer from the same ocular problem as Mr Brown.
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89. Mick_Taylor:
"The gaff really being, the only time and place you would have got a handwritten prime ministerial letter in the last 40 years, if your child died in war, was from Brown's Labour party.
Thanks for revealing that to the world Rupert. Makes Brown look pretty compassionate if you ask me"
Unfortunately, the odds of receiving a letter if you have family in the military have increased under Labour, thanks to their foreign policy.
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It is poignant to remember Kristallnacht and the fall of the Wall at the same time. These two events stand like bookends to a period of German history where a civilised nation was sucked into a brutal reality only to be finally spat out into a democratic future. What stands between those two events is best called murder and we must all never forget those tyrannical times whether it be the Third Reich or the DDR.
With regard to the hapless Mr. Brown I have long said he was not fit for purpose. I have probably been among his harshest critics over the longest period of time. He epitomises all that is wrong with the body politic in the UK today: good intentions are not enough, appearances are meaningless; it is what you do that counts. Unfortunately too many of us are paying for what Mr. Brown has done since 1997 for him to be respected.
I find the campaign of the Sun quite distasteful. Is this because until very recently the Murdock press was supporting New Labour? This has the smell of confection about it and I condemn the Sun for exploiting a mother's grief in this opportunistic way. There are few families in this land that has not had a serving soldier amongst its kin and a good many, mine included, have at some time or other grieved for loved ones lost in battle. We also grieve for those that came home seemingly safe but who could not talk about their anguish and thus constrained the lives of those around them.
The confusion and despair over the conduct of the Afghan war is understandable as where was the leadership? This country drifted into the Afghan war with no plan, no objectives, no tactics and insufficient equipment. This is all the fault of New Labour who must accept that indictment without qualification. However, despite all that negativity this job is do-able given the right focus, given sufficient resource and given the right political pressure in Kabul. This is by nature not a winnable war, it was always about containment, but we can bring it to a satisfactory conclusion through the application of military muscle alongside sound diplomacy. But we will not achieve that result if we continue with the prevailing indecision and drift.
We must not forget that it was the weakness and the opportunism of the Weimar Republic which led the German people to Hitler's door like lambs to the slaughter. The same political weakness and opportunism seems to be permeating this country today. The drift has to stop. Brown should call that General Election to allow the people to speak and the Murdock press should be told to shut up and stop promoting the egotistical opinions of its proprietor.
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54. At 3:55pm on 09 Nov 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
...Sending individual letters for war dead is not on a leaders remit. Brown has gone above and beyond what other leaders do. And almost certainly does this sort of thing in the small amount of spare time he has in a day.
===
After he has finished ringing Simon Cowell to enquire of Susan Boyle's health and commented on the musical merits of Jedward.
Yes, very busy man.
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According to a serving army officer,ready to embark on his third tour of duty, interviewed on the Today programme by John Humphreys earlier today, stated that the reporting of the situation by sections of the media was a national disgrace.I am far from convinced that large sections of the media,particularly the trashy tabloids, owned by sons and daughters of nazi appeasers, porn kings, and run by a bunch of Murdoch lackeys, their primary interest will be the well being of our soldiers.The 'Fourth Estate' continues to raise its ugly head.
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54. At 3:55pm on 09 Nov 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
....I suggest a few of you try writing with your eyes closed, and see what happens.
===
My guess is probably the same result as running the economy of this country with your eyes closed, as Brown has been doing!
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55. At 3:55pm on 09 Nov 2009, SimonInverness wrote:
please let's not endure any more drivel from The Sun about how it supports our troops. Its parent company does as much as it can to avoid paying tax, denying us hospitals and schools, and soldiers, helicopters and kit.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1999/02/99/e-cyclopedia/302366.stm
...and they've been at it for years according to the BBC
===
What, even when they were supporting Labour?
No, never!
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85. Mike_Naylor wrote:
"When you come out with the same bile on handwriting as you do spending cuts, then it's hard to take your words that seriously. Sun and voters."
Would that be the same Sun that New Labour courted for so many years then?
Whiter than white New Labour.
Oh the stench of hypocrisy. :-)
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57. At 4:02pm on 09 Nov 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
...The Sun does influence politics. But both ways. Personally, I really question anything the paper does, and any criticism of Brown like this, endears me towards the guy. As I'm thinking:
"Why should an itelligent person vote the way The Sun wants me to".
===
So, you either didn't vote Labour in 1997, 2002 and 2005 or you are not intelligent? Which is it, Mike?
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When did we start to believe politics was all about small issues? The level of debate these days both in the press and other public domains is so purile that it just tends towards looking for reasons for personal insults. I have a letter from Winston Churchill to a member of my family where not only was it typed but the signature is also a facsimile, we never took that as a slight or insult or went to the press. I'm afraid I give up especially when it comes to the Sun standing up for anybody
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67. At 4:13pm on 09 Nov 2009, sagamix wrote:
MN @ 52
"When you use the exact same rhetoric to attack on “handwriting” as you do on “national debt” then you kind of give the impression that your agenda isn’t policy. Just a deep seated hatred"
spot on, Mike
sexy blogging
===
So spot on and sexy that the Moderators removed it!
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Who are you attacking Mr.Robinson? The Prime Minister or the Sun it seems that both are on the receiving end.
The Sun certainly did not start the War, Brown, technically did not either, it was the man in No.10 before Brown. Blair got out, leaving Brown to carry the can. The P.M., now sees the possibility of losing the next Election, so adopts an ambivulent attitude, leaving it to his sucessor.
So there we have the situation, the PM doing as little as possible, in some-one else's war. Why tax his brain, there are enough problems with finances,he still thinks that he resolve. Brown will try to give an impression of doing much by doing little on the war. The Sun is trying to sell newspapers. Remember a year or so back, the Telegraph entered into a different war, that of parliamentary expenses.
Not too many readers complained about that campaign, it had results, so give the Sun time. I do not read the paper or support Brown.
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#51 sagamix wrote:
"the thing I dislike more than almost anything else in Political Leaders is when they have too much respect (and ANY is too much) for the "Powers That Be" a.k.a. the Establishment"
Yes, but what is the Establishment? Fifty years ago this might have been called 'Tory', but in many sections of social and political life (I deliberately do not say economic life), we have a Left Liberal Establishment (nothing wrong with being a liberal without the capital letter by the way, I am one myself).
The Left Liberal Establishment populates the BBC, much of the media, the judiciary, the Church of England, and perhaps above all in the quangos that Labour have created and/or expanded. Salaries of £100,000+ with no risk and minimal responsibility.
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The worst thing labour could have done was wheel out Mandelson to defend Brown. The best thing would have been for Brown to have apologised publicly for his casual laxadasicle attitude to doing his duty of writing personally to the family of a soldier killed in action.
Who else would send a letter in such a tatty format? Anyone else would write a proof first and make sure it was amended and written out correctly before it was sent.
They couldn't even get his name right at PMQ's. So who prepared the PM's notes for him there?
There is blame in Downing Street and someone should be sacked over this for like the mother of the dead soldier and being close to the mother of another killed recently I believe there is no scope for a casual attitude from anyone over such complacency.
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#77 Mike Naylor
"11: When you hire an ex Sun editor like Coulson to run your media campaign, expect tabloid sleaze like this."
===
He was editor of the News of the World actually.
You seem to be only on nodding terms with the truth Mike, do some research before ranting!
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Unremarkable Nick, that is an understatement, Brown is USELESS !!!!
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yellowbelly1959
"Clearly you either didn't watch it live yesterday or you suffer from the same ocular problem as Mr Brown."
Are you Jeremy Clarkson? You write like him and your obsessed with hydrodgen fuel cells. Horse faced flamebaiter that he is.
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#29
"Having seen the letter, a seven year old could do better, and his lack of respect at the reef laying yesterday..."
Oh good grief.
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*Lack of respect/ following of protocol at the Cenotaph.
*Poorly-written letters to the mothers of bereaved servicemen.
*The infamous "Obama Beach" gaffe.
A bit of a pattern emerging here, and it's not one of respect, gratitude and admiration for the armed services, past and present, either.
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As an ex-service man, I always thought we all joined to serve our Queen/King and Country.
I am sure that most of the soldiers serving in Afganistan joined to fight, or have I got it all wrong.
Can never remember a time when I was serving that we had all the equipment we would have liked; there was always shortages of spares and equipment.
I you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Hands up who thinks it's ok for News International to avoid paying taxes?
and yellowbelly1959, I was appalled when The Sun switched sides all those years ago, no-one needs support like that - least of all Cameron today
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93. At 4:58pm on 09 Nov 2009, pdavies65 wrote:
Noticed how a few voices of sympathy are creeping in? Could be the Sun wot overdone it.
pd65, the problem is that creating a new user specifically for this thread, let's use Michael Grant as an example, to post a comment in support of the unsupportable a little too obvious for most of us
at least the Mike_Naylor persona has established a bit of previous
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#62 sgniteerg
In response to your comments about the economic failures of the West, please can you provide some facts such as:
a) comparative economic growth rates in West and East Germany after 1945
b) if that's too painful, comparative income rates for median-income workers in West and East Germany after 1945.
Source references appreciated.
P.S. you raised the right issues.
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#1 DeimosL
"He [Duff Gordon] should be put in a more junior role where he would receive greater supervision in his work."
Isn't that what Lord Mandy was brought back to do?
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Over the years I have been very disappointed by New Labour and Gordon Brown in particular. But when I see how ruthlessly he being attacked by the popular press I am almost inclined to support him on the basis that my enemy's enemy must be my friend.
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Typical vindictive story from The Sun. I never knew the PM wrote to the family of every solider killed, can you name any other world leader that does that, or even has done that? Although I don't believe in the War, or the use of the military in unwinnable wars, I respect Gordon Brown for making the effort to handwrite letters, however it seems that the bbc is purely jumping on the anti Brown bandwagon, than actually doing any journalism..
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Mike Naylor @ interminable postings
Brown also mispronounced Jamie Jane's name in the HoC when reading out the names of those who had died in Afghanistan since the summer recess.
Are you going to blame that on his eyesight?
By comparison, Mrs Thatcher knew off by heart the names of all 255 servicemen killed in the Falklands.
So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
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Nick, you may recall that Donald Rumsfeld got into hot water over his letters of condolence sent to parents of US service men killed in action. DR sent out standard printed letters in his name but without signatures (he used a printed signing) and with other flaws that suggested he might have been less than sensitive to parental grief.
Gordon Brown's responses are in a more humane class: individually hand-written letters, and personal to each recipient.
We ought to weigh the comments of properly grieving and angry parents, and not turn their grief into over-prominent news stories.
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Angus Campbell
Re #53
"..BBC.. rushes to defend the indefensible": Listened to Today and Watched their News items all day - - seemed very even-handed IMO - - pointed to Sun's version and the bereaved deep upset and followed this with explanation of Mr Brown's physical deficiencies.
"..SKY.. detailing.. without spin..": Watched for most of the day their News too and they seemed to cover it fairly much as the BBC had; they started via the Sun story and the PM's disability. However, like the BBC, as the day wore on and news of PM Brown's contact with Mrs Janes became known the SKY reporters outside No.10 amended their version to reflect that the 'apology' seemed eminently reasonable and that no polItician of any Party at Westminster was willing to try to make political capital out of this unfortunate affair.
Which is a lot more than can be said for you and your comment!
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106. At 5:42pm on 09 Nov 2009, yellowbelly1959 wrote:
Yes, very busy man
you missed out the hours he spends pondering which biscuit to select, then whether to dunk it, then agonising over he should really be eating biscuits because the cartoonists portray him as fat, then putting the biscuit tin away, then getting the biscuit tin out, then pondering which biscuit to select ....
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virtualsilverlady
Re #116
"..who else would have sent out such a tatty letter?"
Well, isn't a point in PM Brown's favour that he at least does send out personal letters to the bereaved?
It is my understanding he is the FIRST PM to do so and if 1 erroneous letter amongst the 220+ causes this degree of muck-slinging why will any future PM consider doing the same!?
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119. At 6:03pm on 09 Nov 2009, dhwilkinson
I see you avoided answering the question, dhw!
And no, I'm not Jeremy Clarkson.
I am The Stig!!
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127. At 6:21pm on 09 Nov 2009, stanblogger wrote:
Over the years I have been very disappointed by New Labour and Gordon Brown in particular. But when I see how ruthlessly he being attacked by the popular press I am almost inclined to support him on the basis that my enemy's enemy must be my friend.
===
That would make The Taleban/ Mujahideen our friends then, so why are we fighting them?
A bit of flawed logic from you there, I think.
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While I am and shall always be totally opposed to both the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and, resent the lives that have been and will be lost for so long as we are involved in either Country; I abhor the nasty vendetta that is being waged against Gordon Brown by all and sundry. It is not British as I understand that word. I accept one cannot expect more of the gutter press and the way it has used a grieving mother to further its cause I can and do show my contempt by not purchasing those papers. I regret the BBC falls into the trap of givimng them free advertising by reporting their contents. It is not a story whatever you may do to seek to justify it and I am sorry you Nick consider it in that light. I would remind "all and sundry" the politicians and those that upheld his judgment, both wars can be laid squarely at the door of Tony Blair by reason of his gift of oratory, nothing more. For goodness sake try and bring back some constructive critiscism if you feel the need to moan and complain but don't just use Gordon Brown as a whipping boy just because it is fashioonable to do so.
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stanilic
Re #105
From '.. Kristallnacht.. the Wall... weakness of Weimar.. voting for Hitler..' to '..Brown... not fit for purpose..' and on to '..Afghan camapaign..' with 'a UK General Election..' tacked on!
Sometimes I have been known to stretch the argument a long way, but I bow the knee to you: A more extraordinary train of non-sequential thoughts can have seldom seen the light of day.
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@ #50 - your view is not shared by the military. Please listen again to the 8:10 interview on Today this morning. Most of the military believe they are doing something valuable & achievable in Afghanistan. I'd urge you to listen to it, it is illuminating.
The miss informed are the Opposition & the Lib Dems who are opportunistic in the extreme. Playing politics comes naturally, because they don't really have any responsibility. They say and do whatever they want to and if they get it wrong (like Cameron has over the economic rescue package or Europe), it fills a few column inches and is forgotten about.
As for Brown - politics is a matter of choice. All we can go on is judgement - I know Cameron is severely lacking. Given the choice, I know who I'd rather have in number 10 - the current incumbent.
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#132 claptrap
Aptly named and underlined my earlier point superbly, thank-you.
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99 I'm not saying they dont avoid paying tax Simon.
I'm saying that its a bit bloody pointless banging on about it when its your own party's deliberately engineered tax strategy that has allowed them to do it!
Who do you think wrote the tax code that we have in the UK now? Thatchers bloody fairies? This is Gordons tax strategy, it has been deliberately engineered this way, for reasons probably only known to himself.
If you're grumbling about these big players not paying corporation tax, then for gods sake write to your own bloody chancellor! Dont try and point the finger anywhere else.
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'If anyone ever suggests to me that politics doesn't matter, I tell them to remember 9 November. It's a day I will never forget.'
Was it to do with politicians or people power, Nick?
There is a difference.
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' If you can't do it right... [feel free to fill in]'
But there is always an excuse. If, on occasion, a poor one.
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100#
Had Brown been in power in 1939, you'd be speaking German. Had his policies been in effect then, particularly towards defence spending, you'd have been speaking German.
Clear enough?
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107#
You obviously dont believe in Karma then, Mr Souter??
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Fubar_Saunders
Your posts are becoming more ridiculous with every attempt. You seem to be in need of a holiday from this postings as you are becoming more frustated and resorting to swearing and absurd remarks as #143.
You have the aire of so many Tories, who see the looming defeat at the next election, and are becoming aggressive towards other posters. Cool it please.
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I think the story is an indication of both points in the blog
1. The British public is tired of the Labour Government/PM Brown and MPs in general
2. The British public is tired of supporting wars that seem to have no real impact locally except perhaps to alienate ethnic minorities in this country.
I support the idea of democracy, but not the sort we seem to be practising in the West, which given even the most cursory survey can't be neither more nor less corrupt than the 'democracy' practised elsewhere...
Kristallnacht marked the last collapse of a nation tired of the way the world treated it after the First War.
The fall of the Berlin Wall was the beginning of the collapse of Communism in Europe.
but for what? To have Tony Blair for President?
Perhaps we should be laying wreaths to the West...
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107#
Oh BTW, Sout, you may or may not know that a central part of things over in Kandahar is the Media Operations Cell.
All of the embedding of reporters is controlled by M.O.C and MOD.
The official line being spun is at the behest of the government. Non embedded reporters cannot travel and report with military units. So, the stuff that is so anti government is coming from several places
1) Leaked within the system over here
2) Leaked by those serving, through websites like e-goat and arrse
3) Families of those serving
4) Reporting from over here in the UK
The officer giving that line was probably going out to MOC at Kandahar. He is therefore expected to toe the line and say what is expected to be said. After all, he's not going to get on in his career if he doesnt.
Just like the current chiefs of the services and the chief of the defence staff. Dont rock the boat and keep the flies off Gordon.
Its that simple.
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107#
Oh and lastly Mr Souter, I wonder how Mr Alistair Campbell felt about having organisations run by Nazi Sympathising Porn Kings and tax avoiders sitting around the table forming the Westminster press lobby who NL exploited so successfully during his tenure?
Supping with the devil with a very long spoon was he?
I'll have to go and read his book to find out.
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Mike_Naylor
Are you a member of this government's spin machine? Your comments seem to make you appear to be one as does the times when you write your comments.
Could we have an answer please?
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Anyone who thinks that the PM's handwriting is bad should try to read anything I write.
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yellowbelly1959
Re #129
"..Mrs Thatcher knew off by heart all 255 names of the servicemen.."
Total and utter rot!
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This once great country of ours is now headed not by capability Brown, but calamity Brown, the muppet from number 10. He just has to go - he's unelected, clueless, soulless, unprincipled and dithering with peoples lives. Worse, dishonouring them when they have gone.
The treatment of Mrs. Jane's should not be a surprise, it speaks volumes about the 'man' behind the mask at #10. He is not and never has been a decisive leader, more a manipulative reactionary of the most dangerous kind - one who does not value human life.
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145#
So where am I resorting to swearing in 143 then, oh wise one?
I make no excuses for my displeasure at paid trolls like Naylor slagging off the families of the war dead. No way. Whatever Charlie is paying him, I hope he chokes on it.
And he can sue me if he doesnt like it. I'm sure Auntie will tell him who and where I am.
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This whole media hype about Brown and his "unsatisfactory" letter is more evidence of the constant need for the trivialization of news.
Instead of having the dignity to accept the letter in the spirit it was sent ...whats the first thing to do ...why call a tabloid newspaper ...
Now we have talking heads spinning this into another "Lets get out of Afghanistan" story and pretending to support our troops at the same time.
No wonder public opinion is against the war with the media acting as unwitting shills for the Taliban.
We need more stories about our victories against the Islamists -not portraying our troops as victims, and not grubbing around looking for mistakes by the troops.
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Yellowbelly1959@103
"Clearly you either didn't watch it live yesterday or you suffer from the same ocular problem as Mr Brown.
I didn't notice as I wasn't obsessively looking to find fault. Looking at the BBCs video, their angles aren't clear either. Did you really notice it live? Surely the bowing should be a personal choice rather than something you do because you're supposed to. It doesn't mean he doesn't care. You'de have to be a political maniac or a gullible sun reader to think that or a Sun or Telegraph Journalist to write it.
@134
Its a good impression though!
PS the Buggati Veyron is rubbish! IKB was overated and we need more speed cameras and caravans.
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#147 Fubar
Your cynicsm must give you great comfort in these long dark winter evenings.
Do you think that the willingness of the press and broadcast media to go with embededness is an indication that politics is now seen as a branch of the entertainment business? It is no longer seen as a way of questioning those in power and those seeking it, it's just a good dust-up, whether in the Today, PM and news studios, or the front page of the papers.
I've been a Labour supporter all my life and still believe that it give the best chance for the lower paid and those without influence. I do believe that these last twelve years could have delivered more, but the influence of the eighties, runs deep and so the opportunities were taken incrementally.
What I would like to see is a return to the tax policy of the seventies, when high earners paid something like 90% over a certain level, although I think it should be re-drawn at 99% at 150k. However, this can only be achieved at international level, and it is very interesting that at the point the Gordon Brown is trying to develop an agreement around the closing of tax-havens, the Murdock press turns against him and the Labour government.
Now as much as you obviously prefer a Tory government than a Labour one, at least you can vote on who runs the country, even if you don't get your choice, as you obviously haven't for the last twelve years, but how do you oust Murdock?
I say to you that we must keep faith in our ability to change things by getting involved, be an active member of a party and campaign against this government if you wish but also the undue influence of press barons.
To trash Gordon Brown the way you do, with-out knowing him is not fair and does you no credit at all. Promote your own ideas and beliefs and leave it at that. Yellowbelly could do the same, as he has nothing to say for himself and just rubbishes other people's contributions.
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133 coolbrushwork
You said that I said 'Who else would send such a tatty letter'
116 I said 'Who else would send a letter in such a tatty format'
One thing I cannot tolerate are those without a view of their own picking bits out of other peoples' thoughtful comments and spinning them to suit themselves whilst at the same time changing the context to suit their own views.
This is the type of labour spinning that we all see through and have had more than just enough of.
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Once again, I note the fact that although most of the contributors to NR's blogs don't like being told what to think by the European Union, they are quite happy to be told what to think by the tabloid press.
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#125 johnharris66
Lamentably, I have only just noticed your post while skimming through before going out for the evening. So all I am prepared to devote to you is a portion of the attention that you no doubt deserve in view of your kind acknowledgement concerning the issues that I raised.
The only East German I ever met at the time when the Berlin Wall came down would not have been terribly interested in the comparative growth rates and comparative-income rates that you enquire about, although you probably have them somewhere up your sleeve, I dare say. What he was interested in was full employment and the kind of social solidarity that existed in the GDR at the same time as the Stasi and so on and so forth.
That was actually what a group of West Germans were interested in too with whom I once spent a hot summer's day trudging through the Black Forest on what they were pleased to call a peace march, at the end of which peace seemed to be no more stable than it had been before we set out, but I may have been mistaken. What had changed was my perception of the group, the proportion of unemployed in which I had become aware of. In the prosperous West German state these people had suffered significant loss of self-esteem, and it became apparent that they were to some degree afflicted by the sort of problems which one associates with unemployment, particularly in capitalist societies where the unemployment rate is normally substantial, such as the 'broken society' of the present-day UK.
There is or, at least, should be, more to politics than economic growth rates and comparative-income rates, for high economic growth rates and high income rates are, alas, not inextricably associated with capitalist societies, as we see today, and, even if they were, that would not necessarily produce full employment. To see two parts of the same country develop in two quite different and incompatible ways is revealing. One thing that it reveals is the futility of comparing apples with oranges.
The fact that many East Germans tearfully miss their old relatively unprosperous socialist society should lead us to wonder whether human happiness really is about treading on one's fellow man to get more than he has or to take from him what he has provided for himself and his family. Whether we wish to or not, the question will soon be forcing itself on us, as the UK economy contracts on a long-term basis.
You look up your statistics and prove your uncontested point about stronger economic growth in W Germany. I have already seen these statistics, just as I once examined the glowing economic trends claimed by the appropriate ministry of the GDR. More to the point will be examination of the statistics of economic growth and employment in Europe and elsewhere for the past year and for the year to come, for 'the old normal' is not coming back, or so it would appear. If the capitalist system as we know it has run its course, as many are arguing, it is less important to argue for or against the merits of economic and social models of a previous era than to look ahead to what can and should come next.
On that subject allow me to offer to direct you, for I perceive that you may have an inquiring mind, to, for instance, a public intellectual's blog that is providing food for thought on the challenges of the current financial and economic crises and has become very influential. Unfortunately, it is not in English. Fortunately, this may be no problem for you and certainly ought to be no problem for your computer. The blog that I am referring to is that of the famous and now infamously controversial Paul Jorion, an extraordinary academic who advocates the drawing up of a global economic constitution and the banning of speculation from commodity markets, inter alia.
Forgive me for not saving you the trouble of searching for the web address yourself, as I doubt whether the moderators would allow me to produce it here.
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Fubar
140 quote, "...bloody chancellor....)
I note you don't dissagree with my comment of you #143 being ridiculous.
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155#
For anyone else, it is voluntary. Doesnt matter how you remember so long as you do.
For a reprasentative of government, its called protocol. And, being the head of government, he should observe it.
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Mr Brown wrote a personal letter of condolence to the family of a young Soldier killed in Afghanistan. These letters are not easily written, and whilst it may have been more prudent to have such a letter typewritten and the signed “ with deepest sympathy etc”, Mr Brown chose not to do so and sent out a handwritten letter instead. I believe in this case this was done with the best of intentions, but the reverse Midas touch that seems to afflict Mr Brown has struck again, and in this case has caused distress where none was ever intended.
So let us cut him a little slack here shall we – perhaps we are looking at a man on the edge looking down into the abyss, we can criticise him for being foolish enough to go there (and perhaps for taking us with him as he did so), but we should not be shouting at him to leap.
Mr Robinsons’ post title of “When politics matters” is what we should be addressing here. The rise of extremism will continue until such time as the mainstream political parties start to properly address the problems which face the Country now, many of which have been created by blindly following political dogma, deceitful practices, the self centred culture of a political elite and the endless chanting of stupid slogans. If they do not do so, they may feel the full backlash from a demoralised and crushed British public.
By the way, the mad Mullahs want to introduce a law to cut off the hands of thieves, a bit barbaric I think, but perhaps a trial run at Westminster may sharpen a few minds (and not a few swords as well) and put an end to the expenses hoo-ha.
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Fubar_Saunders
Re #103
The National Government of 1931-'34 was Conservative dominated and after 1937 entirely Conservative: It was Tory policies of cutbacks in Defence spending that so enraged Churchill and other 'war-mongers' as they were labelled by the Times and other near pro-Nazi press at the time. The Labour and Liberal Parties 'defence' policies were not much better for most of the same era.
It was October 1938 when Chamberlain returned from the Munich Conference that he urged his Cabinet to consider increased armaments spending but heavy Defence spending really only got underway after Hitler had reneged on Munich and annexed Czechoslovakia in March 1939. This included measures for Conscription and expanding the Airforce Fighter and Bomber Command.
Incidentally, a much maligned and severely pressured Defence Ministry civil servant refused to buckle to political pressure and placed orders for the initial 27 Spitfire fighters during mid-1937 - - by April 1939 the order had quadrupled and that Autumn became the priority air-war manufacture product - - only just in time for Summer 1940! The Halifax and Wellington Bombers were the workhorses of the RAF until the Lancaster (original orders placed in 1934) came on-stream in large numbers from 1941.
There is categorically no connection, no similarity between PM Brown's attitude and policies to Defence and the situation GB found itself in on September 3rd 1939. You insult the memory of those honoured at the Cenotaph and of those curently serving to attempt to give any such impression.
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I consider the UK's military involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq at best misguided, bordering on morally wrong, I am unimpressed by Gordon Brown as PM and I have great sympathy a mother grieving over the loss of her son. I will not however give so much as the time of day for the cynical exploitation of that grief by the gutter journalism of the Sun, ultimately aimed at promoting the narrow interests of its owner.
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its
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No148 Fubar,
I cannot remember what he said to me. Why don't you ask him?
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160#
Not the same post, but never mind, attention to detail isnt a Labour thing is it?
Whether I'm ridiculous or not is a matter of personal opinion. I dont take myself so seriously as to presume one way or the other. I've got a thick enough skin for that kind of rubbish to bounce off.
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Its very disappointing that this story ahs hit the headlines on the beeb. If it hadnt been for those charming people at the Sun newspaper this would not have had the prominence. What I find deeply offensive is that here is a man who makes an effort to write personally in his own hand, which most of us dont do these days, albeit making the mistake of being human,is berated for it. He has a visual impairment. Has no-one noticed this. We may not like his politics but do not ridicule someone who ahs made an effort to communicate to a grieving parent. He has apologised to her personally. Oh how we English like to deride and ridicule human frailty from a afar
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156#
Well, I'd certainly prefer a tory government to a make-everyone-poor communist dinosaur administration like the one you advocate. You'd probably do better emigrating to Cuba old chum, its the only place you're likely to be in any kind of political nirvana... and end up suckling again off the Russian teat because you dont grow enough food to feed your own people, your transport infrastructure is falling to peices, the state decides on who can own a car... but you've got thousands of doctors and universal housing, even if most of it makes a Siberian Gulag look like a Dubai holiday complex.
You've got more chance of knitting fog than a tax system such as the one you advocate ever working and providing what a nation like ours needs.
I wasnt born cynical, its the way that lifes experiences have moulded me.
Gordon sowed the seeds of his own downfall. Hubristic to an astonishing degree, all he ever wanted was the top job, regardless of whether he was ever cut out for it or not; he led an uninterrupted smear campaign against the Prime Minister of the day who had a democratic mandate from the electorate and would stop at no dirty trick to get what he figured was rightly his. His own party were too spineless to stand against him, lest they also be smeared and breifed against.
He deserves everything he gets. I make absolutely no apologies whatsoever for it.
"The influences of the 80's runs deep..." Ah yes. Always someone elses fault, isnt it? Can you not bring yourself to say the T word? Whatever it was, someone else is always to blame.
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I find many of the criticisms of Gordon Brown to be misplaced. What it seems to come down to is that they prefer spin to the real thing. Spinning would be a letter written by a PR staffer, neatly typed and signed off by the PM. Instead we have the genuine, hand-written article which - surprise surprise - isn't perfect. That's what genuine things are like.
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163#
While I dont dispute your history, I (obviously) do not agree with your conclusion.
My comments are not against those who served and lost their lives in WW2, but of a Prime Minister who usurped the highest office in the land because he figured he was born to it. I make absolutely no apology for that. His attitude towards defence, parsimony and lack of leadership would have, in my conjectural view resulted in a different outcome to WW2, but all it can ever be is supposition.
With regard to those currently serving, I served for 16 years and still have professional connections to the forces to this day. I have been involved with the forces virtually all my professional life. I know full well what is an insult to them and what isnt, thank you very much, and I need no lecture from you on that front.
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The Tories who are complaining about the PM's hand written letter should be ashamed of themselves.
1) How many politicians would go to the bother of writing a hand written letter about anything? A computer print out is the norm these days! If Churchill had written to very person who suffered as a result of his Gallipoli campaign he would still be writing!
2) It is easy to spot and correct spelling/typos on a word processor. Hand writing is fast becoming a lost art/craft. It is all very well for elderly Tory voters to take half a day to hand write and check letters - a glance at the television often shows the PM in at least two or three places. The PM is very busy regardless of how people vote.
3) Do they want all politicians to stop talking to the public in case they are supporters of another party , decide they are insulted and go running to the tabloids?
4) To what extent did the press take advantage of a grieving person to run a nasty angled story about the prime minister?
5) Regarding armed services equipment - Mrs Thatcher's Falkland's Task force suffered lots of casualties due to rubbish/non-existent equipment. No complaints in the tabloids. It was all "Gotcha" etc etc.
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eye-wish 156
"What I would like to see is a return to the tax policy of the seventies, when high earners paid something like 90% over a certain level, although I think it should be re-drawn at 99% at 150k."
Democracy being what it is, you now have to find something like 15,000,000 adults who agree with you so vehemently that they will get up off their derrieres and go out to vote for your policy. I look forwards to seeing you try to achieve that, the first part of your campaign having gone so well.
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103 Yellowbelly and a few more
No, sorry - I didn't see it live yesterday either. I was down at my local war memorial in the tanking wet rain. It somehow seemed a better idea than sitting by the telly waiting to see if I could make some cheap political points if Brown failed to bow or scratched his bum in the middle of the national anthem.
Still, if you all stayed home to watch it on telly yesterday, the UK residents among you will now be free to attend your local war memorials on Wednesday morning and support your local British Legion in its annual Act of Remembrance. Gordon won't be on telly. No excuses now......
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#156 eye-wish
That was a rubbish contribution!
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171#
Spinning is "a good day to bury bad news".
Why would a printed letter be seen as spinning? The letters the families receive from the Unit or Regimental Commander and the Secretary Of State For Defence are likely to be printed. Hardly anyone in the forces ever receives an official letter that isnt printed, its always been like that.
Gordon's sentiments in writing it were not dishonourable, but the execution of it and the incompetance of those surrounding him who could have prevented it getting as far as it did and doing this kind of damage to him have proved that he has a reverse midas touch. Everything he touches turns to dung.
Put yourself in the bereaved mothers shoes. This is meant to be a letter, a personal letter from the highest office in the land. Is it not unreasonable to expect them to get details such as the family name and first name of the deceased correct? With all the machinery at their disposal?
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96. rockRobin7 wrote:
Now let's get to the real issue out there:
The Sovereign can't open the new session of parliament because she knows this parliament is guilty of financial impropriety.
Yes, that's what everyone's talking about! All the voices in your head, anyway.
I can see why you're keen for the election to happen sooner rather than later. Only a fool could deny the Tories are way ahead in the polls right now and it would take a whole series of knock-backs for them to lose that lead between now and next May. Things like:
1 The economy picking up.
2 A bit of Tory in-fighting over Europe.
3 Slightly better news from Afghanistan and Iraq
4 A few holes picked in Conservative policy
5 Vindictive attacks on Brown by the Sun offending the British sense of fair play
6 Complacency creeping in ...
Stranger things have happened.
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168. AFubar_Saunders wrote:
Whether I'm ridiculous or not is a matter of personal opinion. I've got a thick enough skin for that kind of rubbish to bounce off.
- - - - - - -
What, ridiculous and insensitive too?
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#159 sgniteerg
Thank you for your thoughtful reply to me, and one which I will not be able to reply in such depth (it came as slightly as a surprise to me as most contributions to this blog concern themselves with party political trivia).
You wrote: "If the capitalist system as we know it has run its course it is less important to argue for or against the merits of economic and social models of a previous era than to look ahead to what can and should come next".
Some very brief comments: It is not so easy to define capitalism as the operation of the free market has been constrained in various ways almost since its inception. Capitalism was not designed or planned but has evolved considerably, and I see now reason why it should not continue to evolve in response to the current crisis. In some areas, particularly global financial markets, there are manifest failures and governments will, or at least should, improve financial regulation. In other areas, such as healthcare and education, there may need to be more market provision and not less (though this will be strongly disputed by many). The market economy will continue to evolve, increasing state regulation in some areas and limiting it in others, all the time in a rather haphazard fashion and according to various trends in democratic politics. It will not be planned, and there will be no "year zero" of a new economic order.
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#26 sagamix
jaycee @ 5
"Brown is anti-military to the core"
I agree
one of his good points
saga this is one of the most absurd comments you have made.
If Duff is anti-military to the core why did he hand Teflon Tony a blank cheque in 2003 for Iraq?
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virtualsilverlady
Re #157
My #133 was not a direct Quote of your comment - - sorry, if you cannot understand the 'format' I used - - and, there was no 'spin' on it at all.
You criticised PM Brown's letter and I replied suggesting the fact he wrote one was at least better than nothing at all.
I am glad you feel you, "..see through and have had more than just enough of.." (that is a quote): However, if you bother to read any of my previous comments you will note I am by no means a Brown/Labour supporter, however, in this instance I believe I see through the media hyperbole and exploitation of a grieving mother.
Clearly there is 'spin' involved and the PM's supporters will try to paint this in the best light (what 'light'?, I hear you say and totally agree) and the anti-Brown factions will be stirring up a storm (which I would argue is just as unedifying in these particularly tragic circumstances).
Mrs Janes and her brave, beloved son deserved far better than a botched letter by a beleaguered PM.
All the UK Families and Armed Forces personnel currently in harms way deserve better service from the media than a futile, poisonous attack on a public figure because of 1 lamentably botched letter.
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yellow @ 113
"So spot on and sexy that the Moderators removed it!"
all the best anti Clown stuff on here gets referred to the Moderators by "Big Fubes"
so what can you do?
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175. At 8:20pm on 09 Nov 2009, Fingertapper
Ever heard of Sky +. It's fantastic. You can record TV programmes and watch them later!
I recommend it to you.
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#168 Fubar
It's just a small point, but you are right to say it isn't the same post but that is precisely what I said in the first place. It was because you began to loose your self-control that you didn't read my post carefully. I said,
"...... resorting to swearing and absurd remarks as #143."
Meaning, swearing as example one and absurd remarks as #143, as example two. Not necessarily from the same post.
So far from detail being my problem it is your, less-than detailed reading that caused the misunderstanding.
Hope that's cleared it up for you.
One other thing, are you in the pay of Tory Central Office, in the same way as you assume Mr Souter is inthe pay of.... who exactly?
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roll @ 181
what do you mean a blank cheque?
I thought the Clown view was that he's bit been a bit stingy with our brave boys and girls
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#178 pdavies65
Yes, you are right to say that the outcome of the next election is not certain.
I feel almost sure that Labour will lose its outright majority, but a hung Parliament is still possible. The main point to remember is that to win outright the Tories need a substantial share of the popular vote. A lead of 5 points will not be enough.
If there is a retreat from the Tories in the next six months I think it will be more to fringe parties such as the LibDems and UKIP rather than straight back to Labour. We may have the most interesting election night since 1992.
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185 eye-wish
Punctuation was invented to get round these problems. Try it.
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#176 yellowbelly
Thank-you. You never pass up the opportunity to show yourself up do you.
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173#
1) No-one is saying he shouldnt write. What is being said is that if he is going to write, then at least someone who is in his office should have some notion of proof-reading or quality control. You're not just writing to the local branch of tractor-statistics-R-Us, you're writing to a parent who's son has paid the ultimate price for YOUR political decision. It is only reasonable to expect such a person to get the family name right and if he makes a mistake in getting the first name of the deceased right, is No10 so short of paper that he couldnt start again rather than trying to bodge it?
2) Yes.... as Yellow said, he's very busy... asking how Susan Boyle is, or sucking up to Cowell about two of the most talentless twins on the planet and putting the curse of Jonah on Everton. And if he's written as many letters as it is said that he has, he'll have had plenty of practise, wouldnt he? He would know what to say, how to say it and how to express it.
3) Thats already happening. When was the last time you spoke to a serving politician?
4) Labour manipulated the press for years to score political points. If you try riding the back of the beast, you cant be surprised when it turns on you. Labour spent ten years in bed with Murdoch. You knew exactly what he was like.
5) There were shortages in equipment and had earlier assets not been retired, such as the old Ark Royal, things may have been different. But, the difference was, whatever the services needed once the decision was made to launch the task force, they got. Nobody says that campaign was perfect and it wasnt. It was a close run thing. Also, importantly, you are not comparing like with like. The Falklands was over in 6 months and there was a plan for what was going to happen afterwards.
It also wasnt a UN/NATO operation. We've been in Afghan since 2001 and in larger numbers since 2006. Labour's SDR in 98, nodded through to their eternal shame by the service chiefs of the day (the same ones ranting in the HoL) was to move the model from Cold War stance to Expeditionary warfare and was meant to align the forces capabilities to that objective. Before Blair decided to follow GWB into Iraq on a lie and Afghan on weak reasoning, with no proper objective plan, then to keep on salami slicing the budget. At no point did any defence minister say to the PM, we dont have the capability to do what you're asking. At no point has there been a coherent strategy that has been either well explained to the troops doing the fighting or the public who are providing the bullet fodder.
Gordon, as chancellor and as PM has had a central part in all this and responsibility cannot be devolved. The buck stops with him.
And, like a lot of the left-leaners, you make the assumption that everyone who doesnt agree with Labour is obviously a tory. In the same way that those who didnt agree with the soviet politburo were counter-revolutionary imperialist pigs. Quelle surprise.
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#184. I've heard of Sky+, another of Mr Murdoch's attempts to further his interests. At least in the UK there is still a choice when it comes to obtaining news (which is more than can be said for Italy) but the influence of this man and his family on British politics is frightening. If he is turning his fire on Gordon Brown, then maybe there is a bit more to the PM than I had noticed up till now.
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I cannot believe so many of the comments here, and the fact that this was the top story on national news today:this on a day when we have world leaders visiting Berlin, we have our troops in action in Afghanistan, we are in the middle of a recession etc etc. Let me first of all say I am not a labour supporter - but I find it pathetic and abhorrent the way Gordon Brown is personally attacked time and time again. This was an unfortunate error - no more than that - from a man who took the time to write a personal letter to a bereaved mother, something he's done time and again (yet had no positive public comment on that). He misspelt the surname "Janes" "James" - unfortunate but hardly a hanging offence and I don't accept in any way it shows he treats soldiers or bereaved lightly - on the contrary the fact he takes time in what must be a crazily busy life to do so is very commendable. As for the other so called "gaffes" I saw in the letter, seems to me the only thing he was then guilty of was rather untidy handwriting. What is this country coming to when so many people want to deride this man for making an honest mistake. If you're reading this, have you ever made a mistake? This is the same man who was derided publicly as a "one-eyed stupid jock" in the last year by Mr Clarkson, and showed more class than most people on here in publicly forgiving that "gaffe". Like I say, I'm no labour supporter, but for goodness sake people, have a look at yourselves. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and all that...
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179#
You wouldnt know insensitive if it bit you on the behind pd.
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#174 jrperry
Can I count you as number one. Only 14,999,999 to go.
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yb @ 129
"By comparison, Mrs Thatcher knew off by heart the names of all 255 servicemen killed in the Falklands"
did she really? ... equivalent of notches on the bed post was it?
tell you what, Yellow ... you're the only "Left Leaning Libertarian" I know who dribbles over Maggie
and I know a few
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185#
Souter and I have an understanding. I know he is not a troll, he has long established form. He has views as firmly held as I do, is often given to chestbeating in a similar way to me, but on a different side of the political divide. You'll notice my tone with him is different to that of Naylor. Naylor appears only in times of crisis, posts a lot in a very short time and disappears when the fire appears to be out. Then theres the collection of new user names that only appear today and all appear, oddly enough in defence of Gordon. The same thing happened when there was a big stink about whether the tories would cut incapacity benefit more than Labour would have to... funny enough, they were all new posters, claiming to be disabled and that the evil tories would steal the bread from their mouths.
Again, pardon my cynicism, but considering circumstances havent changed, these plans are going to happen from both sides of the house, people are still being kicked off what used to be incapacity benefit, where have these new contributors all gone to, now the fire in the media has been put out for a while and theres a different bone for the dogs to chew on for the next 24 hours?
You can accuse me of being in the pay of Central Office if it makes you feel better. Maybe you should check back on some of my old posts though where I denounce Cameron's leadership abilities amongst other things. How many tory trolls would speculate that the party might actually want to lose the next election? How many would accuse Cameron openly of being a weak leader who has missed more open goals than Andy Cole in an England shirt?
I know what I am and I wear my political heart on my sleeve, where people like you can stub your cigarettes out on it. But, if it helps you to demonize me, then go ahead. I dont mind.
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Someone way up the thread made some very credible remarks, asking how efficient Brown's private office can be, if letters can be sent out without even the most basic form of checking.
Actually, there is previous for this - just one example from many.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7225209.stm
For some reason, Brown seems to be incapable of inspiring a decent job out of those around him.
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183#
I havent referred anything on here today mate. What you call the best anti-clown stuff will probably act as a more than adequate recruiting sergeant for the clown cause. Let it stay up so people can see just how much contempt that NL have for those who spill their blood for their country.
I'm not going to refer a single instance of it.
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No148 Fubar,
Good Lord Fubar, three replies to a small contribution, I am very flattered.I think you would find CP Snow's book 'The Two Cultures' would be a most useful Christmas gift.
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#196 fubar
That was a half-decent hand at sounding reasonable.
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194 eye-wish
"Can I count you as number one. Only 14,999,999 to go."
First of all, you really do seem to have a problem with punctuation. That should have been "Can I count you as number one?".
The answer is "no". If I had agreed with you, I would have told you. So, it's still 15,000,000 for you to find. Also, you owe me a tenner for the English tuition.
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I've just googled images of Nelson's elegant and legible handwriting.
And images of Helen Keller's too. (Honest!)
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#191 over_there
My comment at #184 wasn't aimed at you, it was aimed at fingertapper, so why respond to it, unless.....no, surely not,...... unless you are a serial blogger using multiple nomes de guerre? Surely not? I think we should be told!
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192#
So, if it happened to you, you would just accept it would you? If it was your son? Its not just Guardsman Janes, what about the 14 crew on XV230, what about the 10 on the Hercules? What about the volte-face about the Gurkhas? Where the government has attempted to gag the families, deny them justice, where the government has allowed the systematic destruction of military flight safety? Where they have attempted to claw back compensation for loss of limbs for those who are injured and permanently disabled in action?
This is not a singular isolated incidents where the current PM has shown his true colours about what he really thinks of the armed forces. He wraps himself in the flag when he feels there is some political mileage in it.
Untidy handwriting? Its enough to make a GP look like a calligrapher...
Funny that you're yet another brand new poster, yet another one saying what a "crazily busy life" that the PM has... I think thats been answered often enough on this thread.
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196 Fubar wrote:
I know what I am and I wear my political heart on my sleeve, where people like you can stub your cigarettes out on it. But, if it helps you to demonize me, then go ahead. I dont mind.
Brought a tear to my eye, Fubar. It really did! I take back 'insensitive' - you have the soul of a poet.
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#195 sagamix
Not left-leaning, left of centre, if you recall.
Facts, dear boy, facts.
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199#
I'll look it up. :-)
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195. At 8:52pm on 09 Nov 2009, sagamix wrote:
yb @ 129
"By comparison, Mrs Thatcher knew off by heart the names of all 255 servicemen killed in the Falklands"
did she really? ... equivalent of notches on the bed post was it?
===
Probably something called a conscience.
Maybe Messrs Blair and Brown could learn something from it?
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#188 jrp
I think that contribution sums up the pointlessness of this article. The story was a non-story in the first place and so mind-numbingly pointless that we begin to criticise each others punctuation.
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201. At 9:08pm on 09 Nov 2009, jrperry wrote:
First of all, you really do seem to have a problem with punctuation. That should have been "Can I count you as number one?".
Surely, that should have been, "That should have been, "Can I count you as number one?".
People in glass houses. If I had paid you a tenner, I would be demanding a refund.
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199#
Thanks Souter, looks interesting. I've just ordered a copy from Amazon to take with me on holiday.
Thanks for the tip. :-)
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179. pdavies65:
168. AFubar_Saunders wrote:
Whether I'm ridiculous or not is a matter of personal opinion. I've got a thick enough skin for that kind of rubbish to bounce off.
- - - - - - -
What, ridiculous and insensitive too?
***
What a jaffer. Left your stumps exposed there Fubes.
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14. At 2:23pm on 09 Nov 2009, wannabemedic wrote:
Why did the BBC decide to run this as its top story on the 1 o'clock news? It was a non-story about the nasty campaign by The Sun (Murdoch) which is a shocking insight into the power yielded by conglomerates. What happened to democracy? Let the people decide on the true facts, instead of forcing it down their throats
No one is forced to buy The Sun.
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yb @ 206
"Not left-leaning, left of centre, if you recall"
mmm
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204 fubar
You are in danger of adding paranoia to your cynicism.
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My experience of working in "the Establishment" is that such letters should be dictated carefully, typed up and printed, checked by the author for quality and then despatched with a handwritten salutation and a handwritten valediction.
In my time working in "the Establishment" (admittedly some years ago now), our world class, apolitical civil service would have been right on top of this kind of administrative matter. Such an abortion of a document would never have seen the light of day.
This incident is as much an indicator of general administrative incompetence and the demise of good government as it is of Gordon Brown's legendary gauche behaviour.
To think, not so many years ago we were one of the most respected nations on earth. After 12 years of Labour Party shambles, we are rapidly becoming the world's laughing stock, led by a complete fool.
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159 Sgniteerg
Do you not think the former East Germans who look back fondly to the old times are suffering from a very common human trait, selective memory ?
Sure , in common with all the Soviet bloc there was housing, of a sort, for all a job for all , all shored up by economic policies worse than GBs.The Berlin wall fell because the place was bankrupt as much as by popular political pressure.
But back to the selective memory. Have they forgotten people who disappeared in the night? People who were shot for trying to leave?
A police force as bad as any gestapo. We are all guilty at some time or another of rose coloured specs. But surely to hanker after a repressive and brutal a regime as Honeckers was is carrying things a bit far.
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212#
Hey, what you see is what you get. Nobody's perfect. :-)
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212.
Jaffer? Jaffa.
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210 eye-wish
Clever, but yours went out of fashion a hundred years ago. On the other hand, question marks remain "in". Check Lynn Truss.
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215#
See 196.
Theres previous form and plenty of it.
Labelling me as barking doesnt give it any less mileage, I'm not the only one who sees it.
....Or is everyone who doesnt openly support Labour mentally ill, as well as being counter-revolutionary-capitalist-dogs?
New depths being plumbed methinks, to monopolise the argument.
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#216 moarymint
What a pity you don't tell us what envolvement you had with "The Establishment" Who though, were we respected by? The Islamic world? Iran for instance, were they great respectors, of this great country? I don't think so.
Why do you have to join the many who use personal attacks on someone they have never met, in order to get their point across? Just declare your hand first, you are a Tory or further right than they are, and then say your piece.
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Some good news at last. Just reported - Murdoch is to prevent Google from using content from his publications.Is political education in the UK likely to improve?
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"What light is shone by this row?
First, that with grief comes anger.
(Second, that) there is widespread anger with Gordon Brown in the military.
...So far, so unremarkable."
Another 'small beer' moment, Nicholas?
"The reason this is a story is because of the widespread sense of doubt about the continued value of British forces fighting and dying in Afghanistan. The row about this letter and the one about the PM's apparent failure to bow his head at the Cenotaph are proxies for the much wider and much more important debate about whether "our boys" are fighting and dying in vain.
On 9 November of all days, we'd do well to remember that."
Yes, oh wise one, but this glitch will disappear from the headlines fairly smartly whereas the bodybags will continue to arrive and the wider debate will rightly continue, so no need for the sermon.
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220 proffessor perry
Do you mean, " ....your's went out of fashion a hundred years ago."
I can only refer to my own education which took place much less than the period of time you speak of, but we were taught of the need for a pause before a quote.
As it happens I am currently reading Alan Bennett's, "Untold Stories", and he still uses the comma. I'll live with his out-of-date practices, until it becomes unintelligable to others.
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It seems a strange post, Nick.
I guess everybody knows that "polictics matters".
In my case, I believe that politics if the art of the possible - and you can only measure politicians and their relevance by what the DELIVER, raher than what they say.
Mandelson, Blair, Brown, Campbell and Co spend years winning over the media, then trying to exclude some groups who were felt not to support the New Labour line, planting stories, getting "announcements" followed by "re-announcements" and occasionally "re-warmed re-announcements" treated as if they were "News".
Now that the economic House of Cards has been shown to have been built on an illusion floating in a misapprehension, the media are beginnng to lightl bite the New Labour ankles.
Remember all tghe fury about the "corrupt" Tories under Major? Sexual and financial misdoings...
Within days of gaining power, Robin Cook was discovered to be having it away with his secretary and "dumped" his wife in an airport departrure lounge.
Blair "I'm a pretty straight kinda guy" was found to have accepted £1MIL for the New Labour project, from Ecclestone to defer the banning of cigarette advertising on FI cars. (That, Mods, has been reasserted on BBC News, so can't be a reason to take this out.)
I sympathise with Brown's problems with his eyes. I have absolutely no sympathy with his politically one-eyed stance ever since 1997. Actually, that's not quite right. He messed up quite a lot of things in the areas of Financial Service regulation, private pensions, etc., but on the whole he tried to keep a reasonable cap on run-away spending until 2001. Then it was just a race to spray as much money into public services as possible.
What I can't stand is his "Look how much I've spent, so everything must be better" approach. Garbage. Especially when there is so much administrative spend inject to supervise "government targets" which just appear to be invented for fun in Whitehall.
That "I saved the world" nonsense. WE - the UK - didn't have enough money to save ourselves, let alone others, so we've had to make it up. (Quantative easing really means let's pretend we've got some cash.) And his pathetic Tobin Tax proposal to the G20 really stirred a hornets of support, didn't it? Not.
For goodness sake, the UK appears incapable of running a nationalised bank. If I ran a franchising business, I wouldn't let Brown buy in. Especially if his big buddy Balls was his financial advisor. Reputation counts in the world of private business.
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No216 Moray,
You do of course realise that your view is not shared by the G20 leaders when you comment on leadership in the UK. When exactly was the UK regarded as one of 'the most respected' nations in the world? and by whom?
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222#
"Declare yourself as a baby eater, Sir, otherwise you will not be permitted to speak!"
Eye-wish?
More like Eye-wash....
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I'm prepared to accept that Gordon Brown sincerely meant the condolences in his letter and that the fact that he hand wrote it shows a personal touch. However, it does look as if his spin machine is well and truly in the past. Surely Messrs Campbell and Whelan would not have let such a shoddy document leave No.10 without giving it the once over.
I also do not blame Mrs Janes for going to the Sun with the story. Sometimes in grief, I am sure that there is a temptation to hit out at the person you believe to be responsible. It is possible that any PM would have been treated this way in these circumstances. However, in this instance I do believe that it is justified. From day one we do not seem to have been prepared to provide the necessary equipment and troops to do the job properly. I know that we are in a recession, but if we are to be at war, see cannot send our brave servicemen into action without the equipment required to give them the best chance of coming home safely. If we cannot make such provision we should come out and let some of our so called allies take on some of the heavy responsibility of conducting this war.
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#204
Fubar,
Mr Brown has no concept or experience of military life and probably is unable to see his personal contribution to the problems that have occurred within the last 10 years or so. I too personally hold him directly responsible for the destruction of XV230 and her crew, those who died on the Hercules, and the infantry who are dying due to lack of an effective helicopter air transport capability. It all boils down to one factor – money, or rather the lack of it. Mr Brown holds the purse strings and holds them very tightly, the money for military operations had to come out of the defence budget I seem to recall. I doubt if Mr Brown has the slightest inkling of just how expensive any form of machinery is to maintain and operate, he and many of the other cabinet members simply have no experience of any form of practical work in the real world.
The Sun newspaper would have been better off reporting the failings of Mr Browns Government to adequately finance their wars, rather than sink to the level of a personal attack on Mr Brown for poor handwriting and miss-spelling. I have met some of these Sun reporters, I wouldn’t trust them as far as I could throw a 1000lb bomb! The families of those who have made the ultimate sacrifice deserve better, but it has always been so. Perhaps the Queen should read Rudyard Kiplings “Tommy” at the next State opening of Parliament, followed by a “club MuPpet” visit to Tyne Cot cemetery. But then again, perhaps not, they would turn it into a booze cruise at our expense.
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when is graham chapman going to call an end to this sketch/stitch up and we can move onto the next sketch/stitch up. and now for something completely different david cameron, if i was a stand up comedian i would be rubbing my hands in anticipation, unfortunately i am not, i also havent read the sun, but if i ever want to read about politics i might buy it one day.
are people actually going to vote for david cameron, that i cannot understand maybe if he starts getting asked some proper questions on television rather than getting treated like a celebrity guest we can get an idea of what he is like, i do believe he likes muesli, so there are some positives.
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221 Glancing down the list of posts, I think it is a bit rich to accuse anyone else of "monopolising the argument!"
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Ahhhh... So, is Jo Coburn a Murdoch plant as well???
I'm sure I heard her say about letter writing to the families of the bereaved ".... a tradition carried on from previous Prime Ministers"...
And theres all you Labourites saying it began with Gordon... naughty, naughty.
Bit like "It started in America and we have the best placed economy to weather the downturn"??
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Oh no i've just spotter a typo in my last post - whatever will people think of me!
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@ 220
"Check Lynn Truss"
no JR, that sort of pernickity concern for grammar is as passe as brown velvet; these days words mean pretty much what people want them to mean ... "mortgage" for example ... and within the rules
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225 eye-wish
"Do you mean, " ....your's went out of fashion a hundred years ago.""
No, I certainly do not! "Yours", not "your's".
If you got that one out of Bennett, I will eat my proverbial hat.
You still owe me that tenner.
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Re 233#
JSP751, Chapter 1, Section 8, Sub-para 0121 (a) refers:
0121. Condolence letters and letters of sympathy for those such as missing believed killed can be a great source of comfort. It is current MOD policy that the following are to be written:
a. Ministers. A letter of condolence will be sent by the Prime Minister or the Secretary of State to the NOK of all personnel who die in Service. The letter will be drafted by the relevant single Service secretariat with information from JCCC. Ideally the letter should be sent within two working days of notification. Normally, the Prime Minister will only write to the NOK of those personnel who are killed in action on operations. The Secretary of State will write to NOK of all personnel who die in service.
b. Service Representative. A senior single Service representative will also send a letter of condolence to the NOK of all personnel who die in Service. This will normally be 2SL for the Navy, CGS for the Army and AMP for the RAF. The letter will be drafted by the relevant single Service secretariat and should arrive shortly after the ministerial letter.
c. Commanding Officer (CO). In all cases of death the individual’s CO is to write to the NOK. (Further guidance for COs is in Chapter 5).
Note: "The letter will be drafted by the relevant single Service secretariat with information from JCCC."
There is an established procedure, which works. How on this occasion could it have gone so spectacularly wrong? Although the normally compliant Al-Jabeeba have also highlighted on the 10pm news that Gordon again got the name wrong when he announced it at PMQ's nearly 3 weeks ago.
Oh and Nick, with your peice to camera in the same broadcast: Your reputation precedes you, mate.
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216 Moraymint
To think, not so many years ago we were one of the most respected nations on earth. After 12 years of Labour Party shambles, we are rapidly becoming the world's laughing stock...
So you're saying the UK was more respected internationally pre-1997, in the final years of the Major government, than it was during the early years of the Blair government? Really? I think your political antennae are a tad wonky.
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#228 fubar
I should take that holiday.
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239#
Two and a half weeks and counting.
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The attack in The Sun today was beneath contempt. Brown's intention here is the critical point. I wonder if the fact he subsequently rang Mrs Janes to apologise will merit the same level of coverage in The Sun or indeed on Sky News - which is fast becoming a puerile Uk version of Fox News.
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As someone who has also lost an eye and needs glasses for reading and distance vision, I can't agree that this is an excuse for the PM's poor handwriting.
Losing my eye had no effect on my ability to see what I read or write.
The main effect is the inability to accurately judge distance and a reduced field of view (you can learn methods to get around both of these).
So PLEASE stop using the fact he's only got one eye as a mitigating factor!
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Everyone with any empathy can realise the hurt felt by Mrs Jane. Mr Browns letter does look very rushed and ill considered. However, The Sun knows very well our Prime Minister did not mean any ill will towards the bereaved family. In my opinion the Sun has amazing contempt for far too many innocent people in this country and continually ill reports and publishes hurtful, badly researched articles about so many peoples private lives to pander to public appetite for slander and gossip.
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For those who have not seen Duff Gordon’s letter here it is.
And this guy got through university.
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I never ever thought I'd post a blog in support of Gordon Brown but this issue has got me so angry I’ve felt compelled to do so!!
As someone who experienced a family bereavement as a result of the war in Iraq and who currently has two other family members in Afghanistan as we speak, I think I not only have the right but the experience to comment.
There are many things I don't like about GB's politics and the way in which he operates but the one thing you cannot accuse him of is being insincere and disrespectful when one our brave servicemen are killed. That is just a cheap political shot!!
What sickens me more than the issue of whether we should be there in the first place is the utterly contemptible actions of the Sun newspaper who are using what should have been someone’s private grief to castigate a defenceless target in order to sell more newspapers.
Brown cannot win on this one...if the letter had been typed it would have been classed as uncaring and impersonal. From what I’ve seen, it's not even clear there is a spelling mistake of what after all is a not exactly a common surname.
I can understand that the dead soldiers mother is distraught but what I cannot forgive is the way she , and the sun have exposed this extremely private matter.
In my opinion it is they, and not GB who have been disrespectful to the memory of a no doubt deeply loved son and very brave soldier. I just hope Mrs Janes does not live to regret the day she let the gutter press cajole her into this action
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244 Thanks for this, Roll-on.
His biggest mistake was adding those red circles. They just draw attention to the errors!
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I very much agree with comment 245. If Rupert Murdoch really cared that much about personalised letters to the families of the bereaved, FOX News would have been as vicious to Donald Rumsfeld over sending out a standard printed letter with no signature. However Murdoch's FOX News were cheerleaders for the Bush Admistration no matter how awfully they behaved.
Did George Bush send out hand written letters to all the US Soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan or was he more interested in standing in front of a banner saying 'Mission Accomplished' on an aircraft carrier while wearing a flight suit?
It is sad the BBC are following the politically motivated Sun's agenda.
This morning a Captain serving in Afghanistan was aggressively interviewed by John Humphries because he was angry over the way the media are covering the war. It is of no surprise that the media are far more interested in stories of bad handwriting than criticism of themselves from the troops.
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"Fourth, that Gordon Brown has scruffy handwriting and uses a large black felt pen because he has poor sight in his one functioning eye"
----------------------------------
personally i would rather receive a hand written letter (spelling mistakes and all) everytime over a vetted, proof read, print out with a scrawling signature on the bottom.
that said - i noticed on the BBC news tonight, how we keep being told about gordon's eyesight, and he struggles to construct letters and uses black felt pen... yet on the clip shown on most news channels, he can clearly be seen reading small printed text perfectly well and underlining a piece of the prose in black pen, with accuracy and neatness.
the two do not go together... maybe its an exaggeration?
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Is it not strange that the bbc and the government are complaining bitterly about the Sun, forgetting that for nearly 12 years the Sun was on a mission to support this incompetent government, and only belatedly realised it was doing our country a disservice.
As for the letter, it could have been written by a 10 year old, with more than one spelling error, including what looks like security for sincerity - you could not make it up.
What it shows is that he rules by fear, and that no person that wishes to keep his job working for number 10 can advise him. Otherwise this, and I am sure other letters of similar vein, would never have been sent.
As for one person mentioning he passed at university. I have worked with many foreign consultants with British MBA's who could not speak English well enough to pass their exams, let alone understand the questions.
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248 denzil69
Perhaps the BBC have realised that to pillory a man, however useless he may be,for trying, however imperfectly, to do the right thing is not cricket.
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How low can the UK right wing press go, have they no shame?
Brown was trying to do the decent thing and now there are people out of their trying to make political gains out of it.
The real story here is The Sun and their exploitation of this poor lady who has lost her son.
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It is interesting that th arch mudslinger Murdoch has seen fit to snipe at Gordon Brown. While the current prime minister is not my favourite person, at least allow him some slack. He sent a hand written letter which was immediately taken as an insult by the recipient, without apparently any thought given to the message it contained. The then recipient communicated her feelings to a comic of a newspaper, which has to my knowledge never printed anything in English of any news value whatever. I would have had a little more respect if she had written a letter of complaint to a NEWSPAPER.
The real question is not about who has been insulted but what was the motive? Was it at the behest of the Sun, or was it some other reason? Perhaps the editor of the Sun or that bastion of freedom of the press Mr Murdoch could enlighten us assuming he can read joined up writing.
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79. At 4:30pm on 09 Nov 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
"I disagree. It demonstrates how petty, and agenda driven most of the attacks on Brown generally are.
If you make as much fuss on handwriting, as you do Labour policy, people start taking your words with a pinch of salt.
Your sensationalistic words, are an answer to the question "who the heck believes anything The Sun says".
I think you mis-understand (or misrepresent) why people are angry about the letter and at what happened at the cenotaph. It's not a political reaction for most people in this instance, it's a purely human one.
Although his handwriting is awful, that's not the main point; the main point is that he couldn't be bothered to spell the names right, got lots of other spelling wrong, couldn't be bothered to proof read it, couldn't be bothered to get anyone else to proof read it, scribbled-out and made a correction without rewriting, got the name wrong in Parliament too, "forgot" to bow/nod at the cenotaph (I saw that live and was pretty horrified at the time; it was clear to me at the time that it was broadcast that he simply didn't want to be there) etc etc.
A person who had genuine respect/feelings for the people who fight and die for your country simply would not have been so unbelievably slap-dash about something so important.
To me the telling thing is that a few days before this came out, the ex military chiefs in the lords all said the same thing; that Brown simply couldn't be bothered when it came to the military.
Do I believe what the Sun says? I take what they say with a pinch of salt, I don't read the Sun myself, but the facts have been proven by other media and by Brown himself, and I've seen the jpg of the full letter for myself. I do believe the ex-military chiefs when they all say that Brown has been treating the military with disdain since 1997. Given a choice of believing the BBC, Sky, The Sun, or the military, I'd tend to believe the military, especially when every single ex-military chief says the same thing.
Also, if I were at a service laying a wreath, bowing/nodding would be an automated response; I don't think I could physically lay a wreath at a service without bowing, it'd just be automatic, as I think it would be for most people; I'd only be able to stop myself from bowing/nodding if I made a conscious effort with a deliberate pre-planned thought of "don't bow/nod" going around my head. It's got nothing to do with politics or religion, it's simply about respect.
It's that self-evident total lack of respect/thought which has annoyed so many people. There is no valid defence for these things in this instance, which is probably why the story is so crucial and why the reaction from all sides has been so vehement.
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its great how all you very very clever folk can read peoples minds and know exactly how they feel about things, and what they really meant to say and all that..eh
must be great like none of you have to say in my humble opinion or anything like that nowadays eh, you are all so very sure and positive in your selves.
the scum sun has come up with another nothingness story and all the very very clever people jump on the band wagon..the scum sorry the sun is a disgrace the way it is using the death of soldiers to sell papers and atact the PM. i think he should stop writing letters to the famileys personaly, and have a standard one made up to send out on these sad ocasions.
i can understand the familys of the soilders greaving for the loss of a son,daughter, brother or sister or whatever in a war, and i be sad to hear of someone dieng to but these people joing up with the knoledge that they could be sent to war and there would be a good chance of being shot at or blowen up and what not, and they were prepared to take that chance.
and they are prepared to shot at and blow up their enemy also. a lot of the soilders who are killed or injured are very young and have joing up when the war was on and knew they would have to go there, and wanted to. and the most of them who are only slightley injured cant wait to get back out there again..so why is it such a shock when a solider dies in a war nowadays? is because the meadia tell us it is, like the sun relly seems to care eh dont they?...
oh and this is only my humble opinion
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its great how all you very very clever folk can read peoples minds and know exactly how they feel about things, and what they really meant to say and all that..eh
must be great like none of you have to say in my humble opinion or anything like that nowadays eh, you are all so very sure and positive in your selves.
the scum sun has come up with another nothingness story and all the very very clever people jump on the band wagon..the scum sorry the sun is a disgrace the way it is using the death of soldiers to sell papers and attack the PM. i think he should stop writing letters to the families personally, and have a standard one made up to send out on these sad occasions.
i can understand the family's of the soldiers grieving for the loss of a son,daughter, brother or sister or whatever in a war, and i be sad to hear of someone dying to but these people join up with the knowledge that they could be sent to war and there would be a good chance of being shot at or blown up and what not, and they were prepared to take that chance.
and they are prepared to shot at and blow up their enemy also. a lot of the soldiers who are killed or injured are very young and have join up when the war was on and knew they would have to go there, and wanted to. and the most of them who are only slightly injured cant wait to get back out there again..so why is it such a shock when a solider dies in a war nowadays? is because the media tell us it is, like the sun really seems to care eh don't they?...
oh and this is only my humble opinion
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Having read all the posts on the "condolence letter" I am starting to understand some of the problems. The first problem it would appear in my humble opinions is that a great number of people are completely ignorant of how the parliamentery system of government works.
We vote for a party, the party chooses a leader, the leader can then become prime minister.
For all the tory Sun readers we do not elect the prime minister. Neither for the less intelligent does the monarch have any say in the matter. If you can't understand these basic simple rules, you probably have a major problem understanding the security of the country in relation to Afghanistan and Iraq. At least there is an element of preventing islamic fundementalist terrorist actions within the UK.
When Thatcher went to war it was for possibly 3 reasons:
1.To win a further term in office. 2. To protect a privately owned company(Coalite) which had the mineral rights concessions which also had loose business connections to her husband. 3. To align herself with the military and show (despite her government cutting defence spending) that
she supported the military.
She also had the support of British Aerospace who supplied the weapons, arms and ammunition. Some of her dealings with British Aerospace (now BAE Systems) was definitely questionable as were the dealings which involved her son Mark with the same company. But I can't for the life of me remember her being accused of slease, but the evidence is there if you care to look for it. Conclusion, all governments once elected use the military for their own ends. How do you think we ended up with an empire? We used dodgy trading and then used the army to suppress any opposition to our claims. Now are politicians lie, cheat, misuse public funds and in the end it is the poor bloody cannon fodder that suffer. Politicians once elected conveniently forget manifestos, promises and programs and focus on power and how to keep it and for how long they can keep it. The truth is it is one big ego trip which we as taxpayers end up paying for. Until we start taking an educated interest in politics we will just end up with the same bunch of greedy self serving individuals and their party is really of no consequence.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
We must take time to appreciate our leaders. It is good thought of Gordon Brown to write letters to the families of the slain soldiers but he is not under any obligation.
He is doing his best, taking us out of recession and he should be commended. People makes mistakes day in day out but they are never crucified.
Wait a minute, how many ,istakes have you made this morning? CONSIDER
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258#
Actually, he is under an obligation. Or rather, someone from the Cabinet is, either him or the Defence Secretary. That is the established protocol under JSP751. Google it and see for yourself, its downloadable as a word document.
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@Saga 235
"these days words mean pretty much what people want them to mean "
that would be words such as "no more boom and bust", and "whiter than white" would it?
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255#
Its not those who serve who have a problem with facing the possibility of being injured or losing their lives. They know it is an occupational hazard and they accept that, on the proviso that they will be provided with the structures, the equipment and the means to have a fighting chance of succeeding without coming back in a box.
Dealing with parents who lose a child, depending on whether they do or do not come from a "service family" - this particular family had 5 generations of sons who had served in various conflicts - is another matter entirely.
Its all well and good bashing The Sun. But, Labour have left themselves wide open to this. Its a problem of their own making.
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245#
So, you have three times more chance of recieving such a letter than anyone else on this board.
Put yourself in her shoes for five minutes and imagine that it happened or might happen to you.
How would you react? How would you feel? Not everyone handles it the same way.
Gordon's whole political career is based on cheap shots and what has happened to him in the last few days is as nothing to what he has done to get where he is. Thats all part and parcel of the territory of being PM. If he cant handle it, he should get out and let someone else do it.
These are the things that can come to bite you if you govern by populist news cycle.
I have no time for The Sun either, as you plainly dont, but dont let that get in the way. The Sun isnt the issue here. The issue is a breach of established protocol and a cack handed way of dealing with a sensitive matter, regardless of the intentions.
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234. At 10:29pm on 09 Nov 2009, oldreactionary wrote:
Oh no i've just spotter a typo in my last post - whatever will people think of me!
A point has been made. Just... is it the one intended?
Moving on from the latest topic, like the Black Knight in the Holy Grail http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8FWno , and accepting that little in politics is always 'fair', one wonders if we are to be left with a pair of lips mouthing 'lessons will be learned' before some accept that in addition to varying levels of competence (especially when it comes to matters of delegation and/or having anyone who might point out the odd pitfall, much less listening to 'em) there seems a Napoleonic level of delusion to match the lack of luck.
Decent, possibly. Maybe even plucky to some. Hardly the best way to run a country.
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241#
"Brown's intention here is the critical point."
Just like I'm sure he didnt intend to sell gold at a record low price. Just like I'm sure he didnt intend to have a touch so light on the banks that they figured they could get away with murder
Just like I'm sure he didnt intend to double the tax on the lowest paid workers at a stroke by chopping the 10p band.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions and he is taking us all in that same direction with him, in a handcart in hock to the middle east and the chinese.
But dont let that bother you Pete, I'm sure he's glad of your support.
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184 Yellowbelly
Yes I've heard of it, though like the rest of the Murdoch media, it has no place in my household (granted, I keep a few torn-up sheets of the Sun next to the toilet roll as a symbolic option).
Don't suppose Rupe's men would do anything so base as to wind up poor Mrs Janes into an anti-government campaign and serialise it in one of their wretched recyclables, would they?
So how was your local Remembrance Sunday - or are you going tomorrow instead? We had a decent turnout, despite the downpour.
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256 - Bobmattfran
Don't bother trying to explain the voting system to some of this lot. They didn't vote for him and he's a Scotsman into the bargain. Don't argue with logic. Go have a brew-up and relax. I've been reading (and very infrequently writing to) these blogs for a number of years and many of the protaganists can't haul in the difference between a parliamentary system and a presidential one.
Maybe it should be an educational priority for the brave new government of Rupe and Dave.
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266#
Certainly wasnt an educational priority for the current lot, was it? :-)
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To me, it does not matter how the letter was obtained or by what newspaper. The fact is the letter is genuine and is proven to have come from G. Brown. The mother must have wanted this letter to be seen by the public, therefore it makes it legitimate for any newspaper to print it.
First of all Brown denied that he had made an error at all in the name given and appeared to be blaming the mother. This is his usual stand because he cannot accept he makes mistakes.
This mother is grieving for the loss of a child who died for no other reason than this government demanded of him that he may have to give up his life. How painful then must it have been to hear her sons name said wrong both in Parliament and in a very poor letter sent to her. This is the loss of a dear child and the very people who sent him to his death, do not even care enough to get the details right.
If the Queen can get it right at her age, if the opposition can get it right, then there is no excuse at all for Gordon Brown who is Prime Minister of this Country not to get it right. He gets it right when a celebrity is involved doesnt he?
I think over this most of all Brown is a disgrace to his office. Yes there is an excuse maybe for bad hand writing, however one can tell that no care at all was taken in the sending of this letter.
A bad eye is maybe an excuse for poor handwriting but it is certainly not one for such appalling spelling. I as well as the mother got the distinct impression that it was a letter Brown did not want to write and did not care how the receiver felt when getting this communication.
All I can say is anyone who can make excuses for Brown, has never lost someone who means so much to them. How would they feel if they went to a funeral of a loved one and the Vicar got all the details wrong. There is also the pain of losing a child at such a young age and in the circumstances he died that the mother has to come to terms with. This letter from Brown should have consoled not cause more pain.
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@68 and anyone else who objected to my comment about Gordon Brown not bowing at the cenotaph.
Close your eyes and walk backwards in a strange place. I assure you that you will be more concerned about not falling over than anything else.
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137 cool brush work
I was trying to cover all the points raised by Nick whilst pointing out that the success of policy in both government and war depends upon how the leadership tackles the crunchy bits and solves them. If government is not about providing solutions then what is the point of it?
To a degree I feel sorry for Brown as he is totally out of his depth and is too conceited to accept that reality. It is in his favour I would say that New Labour has been out of its depth since May 1997.
To my mind we are living in the last days of social-democracy in modern Britain. There are many parallels between this country at the moment with the decline of the Weimar Republic into the violent extremism of the Hitler years; including moral, political, intellectual and economic bankruptcy. The Murdock press seems to be working up to our own version of the `stab in the back' myth.
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#190 - fubar_saunders
Yes - presentation isn't the PM's best strength, please remember everyone moaned that Blair was all presentation.
I must confess I spoke to a Conservative politician a few weeks ago - he/she had some interesting thoughts - which I will not discuss in a public place as I wish to respect his/his and my right to talk without it being splattered all over the media.
I found your jibe about the Soviet politburo pathetic. Your attitude seems to be that I and others not allowed to occasionally support the Prime Minister. Indeed were I in the armed services I would be worried that this sort of tabloid coverage is encouraging the Taliban to kill British troops.
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268 Susan-Croft wrote:
All I can say is anyone who can make excuses for Brown, has never lost someone who means so much to them.
But how could you possibly know? Or are you making crass assumptions about people's private lives just because you happen not to agree with their opinions? Tut tut.
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269#
All that was expected of him was to bend his neck forward a couple of centimeters, not do a back flip with two and a half twists. If he can bend forward enough to put the wreath down, he can bow. If her majesty can do it in her 80's Brown can. He just chose not to.
You're making excuses for him. He isn't in a wheelchair like some of the veterans that you referred to yesterday and he certainly has never displayed anything like the courage that they did although he can certainly write enough books on the subject, despite him being so incredibly busy as some of the other trolls are so quick to remind us...
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Nick
I heard your comments on the Today programme; you do read the comments in your blog, see 42.
Unfortunately the "spokesman for 10 Downing Street", Mike_Naylor thinks that underfunding the military is a view only held by readers of the Sun. It is also a view held by many members of the Armed Forces.
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pdavies 272
Rather a foolish comment from you. How do you think I know?
Tut tut
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fs @ 196
"I wear my political heart on my sleeve, where people like you can stub your cigarettes out on it"
I do hope that's not your mental picture of our relationship, Fubar
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275. Susan-Croft wrote:
pdavies 272 Rather a foolish comment from you. How do you think I know? Tut tut
I really have no idea.
Telepathy?
Witchcraft?
I don't see how you possibly know anything about my own experiences of bereavement or anybody else's on this blog. That doesn't strike me as a foolish comment.
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Re. Mrs. Janes: When someone says "There was 25 spelling mistakes in the letter", they are in no position to criticise someone else's use of English.
Her behaviour is cheapening the memory of her son's life, it is cheapening the efforts of those still out there, and it cheapens her. Using her own grief to score political points is demeaning, and frankly embarrassing to listen to. Once she comes out of the immediate grieving process, she should be ashamed of the way she is behaving right now.
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271#
You dont know the half of it mate. The threat to the troops out there is as much from Jihadis from Birmingham and Luton as it is from local Afghanis or fighters from Pakistan.
If you think the leadership of the Taleban read the Sun (hah) and figure, hey, Gordon's on the rack back home, just one more push and victory is ours, with respect, youre painfully out of your depth.
The one thing that Brown and Blair both lacked was substance and conviction and the one thing they do share is a lust for power. This is not unique by any means to Labour. All three of the main parties are as bad as each other.
The politburo jibe is as warranted as any assumption by any supporter from the left who has this inbuilt kneejerk reaction of "you are disillusioned with Labour, therefore you are a tory".
You just cant help it. Fed up with Labour does not equal tory. The tories are not Labour's only enemies. If you cant take it, dont dish it out.
I just looked back at 190 and 173. I'm totally comfortable with everything I wrote. You put 5 points across and I replied to every single one of them, for the most part more politely than your initial outburst, although I grant you a couple of the points were made quite acerbically. Such is the nature of the beast.
You're allowed to support whoever you want. But, if you come charging in accusing everyone who doesnt agree with you of being tories when you have no idea of their political inclination or their motivations for saying what they do. And, you then appear to make pronouncements on a subject that you are not, I would venture totally familiar with that are in a number of ways factually inaccurate.
You expect those of us who know different to just nod sagely and let it pass?
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276#
I didnt realise we had one Saga. Now I understand why you always leave me feeling so.... used :-D
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No268 Susie,
More absurd comments from Susie.In military conflicts do all governments 'demand that soldiers may have to give up their life'or is it only the current government that require the ultimate sacrifice?
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We can not blame any one other for 9/11 and such other attacks.
Because some where we are also resposible for those happenings.
This all happens because we are not taking any actions on this kind of attacks,
definately our polliticians are completely responsible for this things here!
___________________
Dan here, home computer repair London
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278#
Then dont listen. No-one's compelling you to buy the Sun on the way to your office in Victoria, are they?
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@273 I see you didnt bother to try to walk backwards whilst your eyes were shut - my point is exactly that. HM is not partially blind and that is why she had no difficulty in bowing her head while walking backwards. Bending to lay a wreath while stationary is not a problem.
The thing is that it is so obvious that some people are deliberately making a mountain out of this issue to damage the PM. Attacking him for his policy failures is fair enough, but because of his bad handwriting?
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pdavies65 277
I am sure you are a very nice person, however you sure do worry me at times. When you write a post then, do you write it from everyone elses point of view or your own. You write it from your point of view as you cannot present other peoples point view because you do not know it. Thus my post is written from my point of view. Much as I guess yours are unless you know everyone in the World.
In the sentence, which you refer to which you take completely out of context I use the analogy how would you feel if you went to a funeral and the vicar got the details of your loved one wrong. Thus this mother takes Browns letter as an insult as you would in the analogy.
If you wish to criticise a post, do it for a proper reason other than furthering your own politics and read the post in its entirety before doing so.
BTW I do not think you should make flippant remarks such as your 277 with such as serious issue. This young person lost his life for goodness sake.
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How is it this grieving, despairing mother of a dead soldier has the self-control and foresight to prepare and record a private conversation with the Prime Minister?
I am deeply sympathetic to Mrs Janes for her tragic loss. However, it would seem she has allowed herself to become embroiled in the Sun's particular anti-Brown campaign. She is in danger of forfeiting much of the understanding of her anger over the PM's letter.
I wrote yesterday the Armed Forces deserve far better service from the UK media in general: In the case of the Sun I would liken its present underhand activities and attempts to undermine the PM to its other notably reprehensible and wholly false accusations about the Liverpool football fans at Hillsborough.
Apparently the Sun still struggles to sell copies in Liverpool and I suspect this present unpleasantness will have a similar effect among many Armed Forces personnel.
As for Mrs Janes, again, I extend my condolence, but I just hope she is able to come to terms with her grief and with the knowledge that her brave son may well have deserved a better epitaph than a cheap, scurrilous tabloid headline.
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braveScouter 281
If you are going to make a comment make it a sensible one for once. I never at any point said it was just this Government that sent men to war.
What I said was that if they are going to give up their lives, the least that should be expected is the respect in death they deserve.
If you think my comments are absurd why do you read them, but you always do dont you, because you always comment on them. Cannot be that bad then.
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285 Susan-Croft
BTW I do not think you should make flippant remarks such as your 277 with such as serious issue. This young person lost his life for goodness sake.
Cheap shot. As you know, the flippant remarks were aimed at you and nobody else.
I did read the whole of your post. You are entitled to your opinions.
My original point is still valid: you shouldn't imply that anyone who supports Brown has no personal experience of bereavement. The part I quoted from your original post did imply that, there was no distortion on my part.
If you are going to cast aspersions on the personal lives of people you disagree with and then not have the courage to either justify or withdraw your words, then I honestly believe you shouldn't be posting on this site.
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284#
You're still making excuses for him. What has walking backwards with your eyes shut got to do with anything?
You dont do that. You stand still, bow your head for two seconds, straighten up, then turn and go back to your standing point. If he can be out jogging without holding onto someones elbow whilst the cameras are around, he can stand still for two seconds and bow.
A very close friend of my family has been suffering from retinitis pigmentosa for many years, as has her sister as a congenital condition. Westminster and Whitehall are hardly unfamiliar territory for Brown. You dont need to lecture anyone on how the loss of sight affects people.
I should imagine that Brown is a lot more scared of cheese and Chianti than he is losing his balance at the cenotaph.
Also, I guess, looking at the floor when you're surrounded by armed soldiers with fixed bayonets, (when normally when he's in the company of the troops in Afghan, the only people who are armed anywhere near him are his close protection team) is probably enough for him as well.
Cant double tap someone with a bayonet though, can you?
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288#
"If you are going to cast aspersions on the personal lives of people you disagree with and then not have the courage to either justify or withdraw your words, then I honestly believe you shouldn't be posting on this site."
More do as I say not do as I do, eh pd???
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pdavies65 288
I did not imply that anyone who supports Brown does not have personal experience of bereavement, that was your interpretation. The secret you see is in 'all I can say' meaning it is my opinion. Which I am entitled to, or have the rules to blogging on here changed and I am supposed to write from everyone elses point of view.
What on earth are you talking about casting aspersions on peoples personal lives. I wrote a perfectly reasonable post that you have turned into an issue for reasons known only to yourself.
I certainly will not withdraw my words, furthermore who are you to decide who posts on this site.
As far as I am concerned I have justified my remarks.
I can think of many posts of yours which I have thought were far more unkind to put it politely, than any of mine have ever been. A bit of hypocrisy as well coming from you.
Must have hit a nerve.
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291 Susan-Croft wrote:
Must have hit a nerve.
Yes, quite possibly.
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290
Example please, Fubar.
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susan
in your 268 you say that anyone capable of making excuses for Brown over this letter has never lost someone close to them - it's not "out of context" - the context, in fact, adds to that exact meaning - a quite ridiculous comment, in other words
but never mind all that ... when are we going ten pin bowling?
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NO287 Susie,
I read your contributions avidly. It is my one form of continuous fiction.
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241 peteholly
"I wonder if the fact he subsequently rang Mrs Janes to apologise will merit the same level of coverage in The Sun ...."
=====================
It certainly looks like it did receive the same coverage, but it isn't good for Gordon Brown if you can be bothered to read what was said.
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293#
No further explanation needed. We both know where we're coming from...
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sagamix 294
You may believe so, and that is entirely up to you. Just as I am entitled to give my opinion which I did. I am not speaking for anyone else, or has freedom of speech lost its value under Labour rules, Sagamix.
Do not make excuses for people when they are wrong, just again to further your politics, it is wasted on the reader who understand your agenda.
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braveScouter 295
Most people enjoy fiction including you it seems, wonder why no one likes your posts then.
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298
Nobody questions your right to voice opinions. Stop pretending that they do.
All I can say is anyone who can make excuses for Brown, has never lost someone who means so much to them.
However many times I read that, it means the same.
It's ugly, Susan. And you can't really believe it, can you?
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297. Fubar_Saunders wrote:
No further explanation needed. We both know where we're coming from...
This is my favourite reply of yours since the one that began "Save it, Davies!"
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301#
Glad to be of service. :-)
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pdavies65 300
I have given over and above all the justification you are entitled to. If I asked you to justify some of your comments we would be here till goodness knows when. Now we have established I have freedom of speech, which seemed to be a sad oversight in you previous posts. I believe exactly what I have written. Had I been the mother in this instance, I would feel exactly as this lady does, that is the point from which my post was written. She has received no money from the Sun it seems, therefore her only motive, as would be my motive, is to stop Brown doing this to any other family.
If you have a problem with the post, there is little I can say which will resolve it. Perhaps it would be better for you to wonder why you have such a problem with a moderate post from me, rather than some of the more agressive posts on this site, including your own.
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Ah! so the next time a doctors dreadful handwriting is misread and somebody dies, it's not his fault. It's the fault of the person who read it.
Clearly, when we were at school clear handwriting was important not only because it looked good but more importantly that it can be understood correctly. A spellchecker will pick up many mistakes. Ah! but this was handwritten. Surely a letter of this delicacy was not just written without thought first, to ensure it conveyed the desired tone.
When writing delicate communication it is imperitave that the text is checked, by whom clearly doesn't matter. It is a question of attention to detail. It shows the integrity of the person not only in that task but in the way the operate in all tasks. Accepting ones shortcomings shows signs of maturity.
One wonders if this is not the first time mistakes have been made. Act now, think later. A recipe for disaster, mmmmmmmm, have we been there before.
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303 Susan-Croft wrote:
Now we have established I have freedom of speech, which seemed to be a sad oversight in you previous posts.
In 288, I said "You are entitled to your opinions". Perhaps you missed that line.
I believe exactly what I have written. Had I been the mother in this instance, I would feel exactly as this lady does, that is the point from which my post was written.
That's better! A perfectly valid point, now that you 'rephrase' it.
I think we can bury the hatchet.
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305#
Ah... so there is a connection between Gordon Brown and Doctors... maybe he should change his name to that well known hospital acronym T.F. BUNDY....
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No298 Susie,
You seem keen to express your opinion.Do you know the difference between belief and opinion, and knowledge and understanding? I am sure you will remember that at one time people used to believe that the world was flat.They held very strong opinions on the matter.
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Try closing one eye, squinting with the other and then write a letter of condolance to someone who has lost their child in a war which you have the power to remove british troops from.
My handwriting would be shocking if I had to write such a letter and I've got perfect 20-20 vision and nice writing normally. Its an increadibly difficult thing to do, and I'm impressed that Brown takes time out from running the country to write such a letter and he's got alot more respect in my eyes for doing so.
If he had gotten someone else to handwrite it the press would have slammed him for it and if he had typed it it would look like a pre-set copy and paste job. Criticising the layout and apperance of the letter is to criticise his disability and shows an appauling amount of disrespect.
If you actually look at the letter the spelling mistakes that people have pointed out could merely be is poor writing. The 'M' instead of an 'N' is not an obvious mistake, it could merely be because of the speed that he writes at. Regardless of that he personaly appologised by telephone, how many Prime Ministers would have done that?
It shows he cares, you can tell when he speaks about it that he does(after all he's hardly the best public speaker, you can see what he is thinking most of the time). Attacking him in the way some have over the last few days is frankly appauling.
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braveScouter 307
Some people still believe in the Labour Government and think they can keep spending money they do not have, despite the evidence given. Not much you can do about that either.
Now thats about as sound as still believing the World is flat.
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"and I'm impressed that Brown takes time out from running the country to write such a letter and he's got a lot more respect in my eyes for doing so."
I take it you're equally impressed that he's managed to find the time in his busy schedule to write three published bargain-bin-bound books on the subject of Courage then, too??? Each one two hundred and fifty pages long?
Not to mention finding time to call Susan Boyle and Cowell about Jedward?
You impress very easily, if I may say so.
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glistening eyes and gravely voice.... grow a pair man.
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"310. At 3:59pm on 10 Nov 2009, Fubar_Saunders wrote:
"and I'm impressed that Brown takes time out from running the country to write such a letter and he's got a lot more respect in my eyes for doing so."
I take it you're equally impressed that he's managed to find the time in his busy schedule to write three published bargain-bin-bound books on the subject of Courage then, too??? Each one two hundred and fifty pages long?
Not to mention finding time to call Susan Boyle and Cowell about Jedward?
You impress very easily, if I may say so."
======================================================
Yes I am impressed. Think about it, he's got about 15% of the vision that I've got, and he still takes the time to handwrite a letter to the parents of soldiers that die in battle.
Suggesting that he doesn't care is very cold hearted. It must be a very hard thing to do. Even if he didn't care, writing 90 odd letters like this just this year would make even the most stone hearted person emotional.
The other things he's done that you bring up doesn't change anything. He will have written the books in his spare time, and who cares if he phones celebrities, ok its a bit naff, but he's a politician what do you expect! You seem to think that if someone does something kind hearted it means nothing if they do other things with their time.
Does the charity work people do mean nothing if they write and publish a book, watch TV or run a buissness?
I'm not saying he's got a heart of gold, I'm not even saying I like the guy and I'm deffinatley not saying he's a good PM.
I'm saying writting personally to the parents of each soldier that is killed is a very decent thing to do and he deserves a bit of respect for taking the time to do so.
I swear some of you people would critisise him if he saved someone from being hit by a bus.
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