So, the Czech was not in the post
The Czech Constitutional Court has not stalled let alone torpedoed the Lisbon Treaty. President Klaus - or a Czech Boris as Ken Clarke affectionately calls the maverick Eurosceptic - will also disappoint British Eurosceptics.
David Cameron says he'll tell us what his new position on Europe is later this week. It is the most important new policy announcement he may make before the next election. Simultaneously, he has to assuage the anger of those who will accuse him of betrayal by denying the people a referendum on Lisbon while spelling out how he can get some powers back from Brussels without provoking a major confrontation with the EU in the first few days of a Cameron government.
As I wrote last week, he will insist that his "cast-iron guarantee" of a referendum lasted only as long as the Lisbon Treaty was not law. He will reject the arguments of those saying he needs a referendum to give him the people's mandate to negotiate a new settlement with Europe by arguing that an election victory is mandate enough. He will promise a referendum for any future treaty change.
The referendum may be his political problem but his real problem is developing a negotiating strategy which does not descend into the farce of John Major's beef war; does not pretend that a repeat of Margaret Thatcher's handbagging at Fontainebleau is possible when it comes to a much more complex set of negotiations but does not persuade Eurosceptics inside the Tory party and beyond it that Cameron and Hague have "sold out", and put their desire for power before their principles.
Watch this space.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~41~RS~)
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Frankly, nothing David Cameron does can replicate the duplicity of the newlabour manifesto pledge to hold a referendum.
Call an election.
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Cameron - off the hook then.
Lets have a referendum on european membership, i'm pro-europe but i'm sick of the constant whining from the antis which just isn't going stop until the country has voted.
And if as a result we end up leaving the EU, well, in a democracy you get the country you deserve....
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So this is your lead story.
The fact that the EU establishment has outmanoeuvred a possible future UK Government and preventing its population from exercising democratic rights?
An obvious case of BBC bias.
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Seeing as, like it or not, we're all Europeans now, can we get rid of the superfluous waste of space that is the Westminster parliament?
No?
Didn't think so.
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"He will reject the arguments of those saying he needs a referendum to give him the people's mandate to negotiate a new settlement with Europe by arguing that an election victory is mandate enough."
Hmm, I'm not sure that he needs a Referendum as a mandate to negotiate with Europe - as you (and he) rightly say, being elected as Prime Minister ought to be mandate enough, should it happen. (And at this stage, I'm guessing it probably will).
However, I DO think that he - and the country - needs a Referendum, regardless of the Lisbon Treaty or any other agreements, just so we can find out, once-and-for-all, how the British people truly feel about this whole EU concept.
So far, everything possible seems to have been done to deny us the chance to have our say. Always, this excuse and that excuse from the party in charge at the time as to why they shouldn't ask the British Public for their opinion. I guess it figures, 'cos it they actually knew what we thought, they might have to stop pretending that their ideological views on Europe are in-line with the majority of Europe.
But frankly, I don't care whether the Lisbon Treaty is now law. I want the chance to register my opinion on what may be one of the most significant changes to the governance of this country for hundreds of years, and to see what the rest of the country feels about it.
And if it turns out that the majority view is against our continued relationship with the EU, I expect whoever is elected to do whatever it takes to pull us out of it; Lisbon Treaty or no Lisbon Treaty. Likewise, if the majority view is that we should stay in Europe and sign up to a new Constitution, I don't expect a future Euro-sceptic government to put their ideology over the wishes of the people of this country.
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all of the present members of government should be tried for crimes against the state.miliband and brown should be tried for treachery.
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Silly me. I thought you might of made the subject of your blog the statement by our Home Secretary admitting mistakes have been made in our immigration policy.
Alan Johnson is obviously not sleeping well thinking about the UKs population in 20 years time. Soon Gordon Brown will be saying " I've never being completely happy about our open door policy"
At least in our homes and pubs we can now discuss this subject without being guilty of rascism
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The one thing I felt I could guarantee was that Nick would happily report the latest news that potentially shows the tories in a bad light and yet continue to ignore issues that are going on in the Labour party.
I also notice nothing on Gordon Brown's interview with Piers, even though it portrayed him in a better light.
We know that David Cameron would if he could hold a referendum on Europe, but he is right, there is no point now.
Labour has already sold off our assets, our financial sector, our gold, our buildings, our monuments and our freedoms.
I can only hope that the tories once elected will work as hard as their Czech counterpart to try and recover some of our liberty.
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3. At 10:23am on 03 Nov 2009, kcband8 wrote:
So this is your lead story.
The fact that the EU establishment has outmanoeuvred a possible future UK Government and preventing its population from exercising democratic rights?
An obvious case of BBC bias.
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So you think the BBC shouldnt report the story at all?
Some times i honestly question if some contributors know what 'bias' is.
I'll give you a clue.
Just because the Beeb runs a story which reflects negatively on your favourite political party does not make it bias.
And in this case it doesn't even reflect negatively on Cameron & Co - Its just a statement of facts.
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Nick why is this always the main story from the BBC on Europe? Why not the fact that both Labour and LibDems have reneged on an election promise and as a result in league with the EU establishment have yet again denied the British people the same rights as other europeans. I have yet to see you or any other of teh BBc's staff push Brown, Milliband or Blair on this issue.
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Nick please let's have an analysis of the treachery of both Brown and the LibDems over this rather than trying to put Cameron in a bad light.
In fact, DC should go for a two-pronged attack:
1. Set out in his manifesto the basis of renogotiation with the EU and then proceed with renogotiations along those lines. If he succeeds - well good. If he fails, the EU will be shown up for what many of us feel it is heading towards - a bureaucratic dictatorship
2. DC can then go to the people with a referendum setting out the choice of rolling over and accepting that or taking the route to freedom.
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Nick - the link to the Czech Court item at the top of your post is broken.
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@ kcband8, post #7;
"Silly me. I thought you might of made the subject of your blog the statement by our Home Secretary admitting mistakes have been made in our immigration policy."
Yes, that's right - because if each and every single story, blog and opinion-piece on the BBC website isn't constantly running nothing but non-stop criticism of the current government, it's an "obvious case of BBC bias", right?
The Alan Johnson immigration comments were political-boilerplate stuff; 'Yes, we've done our best, but mistakes have been made, must try harder in future', etc. The sort of bland waffle produced in bucketloads by cabinet ministers and shadow-cabinet ministers on a daily basis. Quite why you think this should take precedence over an issue as important as the one we're currently discussing, I have no idea.
Far more significant would be Johnson's behaviour over the sacking of Dr Nutt recently; of course, that one has already been discussed at length on Mark Easton's blog, which doesn't really give you the chance to whine and make inane accusations of "bias" because Nick Robinson dared to produce a post that focused on David Cameron for a change, does it?
So no suprise, then, that you picked a non-issue to complain about instead.
An obvious case of random-blog-contributor bias.
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#1 -- absolutely.
My take is that David C. should consider a much broader referendum and ask the British people a number questions concerning UKs future with Europe. For example;
Euro - Yes/No
Reduce Contribution to Euro funding - Yes/No
Trade Agreement only - Yes/No
Withdraw Completely - Yes/No
Let's face it, it is Blair and Brown that failed the UK people with a referendum on the Constitution/Lisbon Treaty. Don't really feel that David Cameron should carry the can for Labour's incompetence and down right election bribes and lies.
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Sorry to be so cynical, but if I was David Cameron I'd promise a referendum, win the election, then rat on the promise. And if people think that's outrageous, consider this: it's no more in terms of breaking promises on Europe than he's doing already. Caledonian Comment
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"..... He will promise a referendum for any future treaty change."
A pointless promise. The Lisbon Treaty is set up so that there will never, ever be a need to hold a referendum again. The only vote possible now is one for IN or OUT. Personally I'd like to see such a ballot.
BTW Nick, your blogs of late remind me of a saying by the late US politician Adlai Stevenson. "An editor is the person who sorts the wheat from the chaff. Then prints the chaff"
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Another spiffingly good egg article by the BBC Political Editor.
Filled to the brim with everything one could possibly wish for: Why think about the Cameron Referendum conumdrum, the Lisbon treaty etc. when there's a bril explanation for all our troubls just infront of our noses.
Oh be still my beating....
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Cue more "thats it I was going to vote Tory but now I'm going UKIP" rantings. When are the eurosceptics going to realise that this is exactly why Labour reneged, to set this trap for the Tories. Do you really want to dive into that trap head first?
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The real issue here is that there WAS a referendum on joining Europe, where the people of the UK voted in favour of being a part of European common market.
The major difference here is that we did so in the knowledge that we were not surrendering our constitutional autonomy.
That has now been just handed over without even a 'what do you think?'
Two things highlighted in the last two weeks - Europe are leading on how the banks are broken up and Darling has to get approval from Neelie Kroes on the appropriate financial support for OUR banks to ensure fair play in Europe.
PLus the issue of the SFO having to seek permission from Europe before it can bring a prosecution in the UK against a UK business.
We are now the official chip eating surrender monkeys of Europe.
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What would be the point of a referendum after we are already committed. We should have had one, as should any democratic country (and had ONE, not kept having them until politicians got the answer they wanted). But we did not.
Having a referendum after we are committed would be a complete waste of time and money and as such would probably suffer very poor turnout. It would not give a representative result as many people would have better things to do than travel to the polling station to register an opinion that will affect nothing.
Quite obscene that as a country which claims to be democratic we did not have a referendum as promised by Labour, but after the event is just a waste of limited time and limited money and would dive no answers.
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I've got loads of things to say, but I'm afraid the mods will consider them off topic.
So, I'll wait till Nick thinks the coast is clear, possibly next week, and starts a thread NOT related to Europe.
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Great opportunity to replace the UK parliament by an English one. But MPs will be too busy worrying about their expenses to take it, I fear.
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10. At 10:36am on 03 Nov 2009, maidstonerichard wrote:
Nick why is this always the main story from the BBC on Europe? Why not the fact that both Labour and LibDems have reneged on an election promise and as a result in league with the EU establishment have yet again denied the British people the same rights as other europeans. I have yet to see you or any other of teh BBc's staff push Brown, Milliband or Blair on this issue.
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How have the LIb-dems ever reneged on anything?
They've never been in a position to fulfill their election promises, nevermind renege on them.
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#1 Robin
Come on, Rock, it's all very good to sound off about the past but surely the existential issue is more important to the Conservatives?
It seems that William Hague is getting 'Baron' Michael Ashcroft 'of Chichester', the Tories main donor and big Eurosceptic, involved with foreign affairs even going as far as having him accompany him on his recent trip to the US.
Surely, it's obvious that Dave is in the pocket of the powerful Eurosceptic wing of the Tories besides it was only with them that he was able to become leader.
This all adds up to a real mess.... Dave has to decide, is he going to fight the party or is he going to fight Europe (and at the same time, the US as they want to deal with one Europe - not two)?
What a fine mess he's got himself into and on the subject of Michael (Lord) Ashcroft becoming a government minister, well, it sounds worse than New Labour (as Mike is embroiled in conflict with the government in his home of Belize).
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It was as Boris says 'aspirational promise"
A promise is not a promise any more in politician speak, which should all know that by now. And this is not down to which party is supported, they are all turning to the same line as it works for one, works for all.
More to the point what will Cameron do? Seems to make promises so far..... see above.
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Now here's a valid european question.
Since the EU is demanding the government reduce the size of its Uk banking business, and we seem to be doing that by giving the useless banks even more money, our money, and the share price is going down, which financial genius is driving this train, eh?
Where are the men who are doing the right thing here, and ensuring that our best interests are protected?
My 2 year old grandson could do better than this lot.
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10 Maidstonerichard wrote:
"Nick why is this always the main story from the BBC on Europe?"
Well look at the top the web page. This is a news site. It therefore focuses on the most recent developments. Sorry to have to spell out the obvious.
Why do people keep accusing this Newslog of bias? If you stand far enough to the right, everything is on your left. That's pretty obvious too.
To round off this trio of obvious things: Cameron would rather, if elected, get on with his own agenda than waste time on a referendum just to pacify the anti-European cranks in his own party and beyond.
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To the British political establishment that have lied, deceived and given away the freedoms and democracy of the British populace and electorate, two words:
Sieg Heil!
Shame on all you discredited and dishonourable MPs. I have nothing but contempt for these scum.
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At the last election, all three parties promised a referendum on the Lisbon constitution/treaty BEFORE it was ratified. Labour and the Lib Dems reneged on that promise. The Tories (Dave's "cast iron guarantee") did not. With the Lisbon treaty all but ratified, the facts on the ground have now changed so a new policy on restraining Europe's influence on our sovereign British laws will have to be thought out.
The electorate will remember that it was Labour and the Lib Dems that sold them down the river and it was the Tories who stood up for them. Every manifesto promise made by Lab/Lib will mean nothing.
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It was easy for Cameron to make a promise of a referendum in the full knowledge that the issue would be moot by the time he took office (if he does). Typical politician's deviousness; anyone who thinks life will be different under the Old Tories, rather then the New, is in for a big disappointment.
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#9 goldCaesar
What news story? Are you now saying the latest opinion coming out of the BBC is a news story?
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#Culverin
'Sound off about the past' ??? What can you mean? Do you mean that within six months there will be an election and you'd rather the tories didn't bother raking up the abysmal track record of failure, denial and disingenuous posturing form this government?
So they should say nothing about the promise of a refendum? Nothing about the ending of boom and bust? Nothing about the enobling of abnkers now bankrupting our country? Nothing about the increase in child poverty? Nothing about the higher level of unemployment than when newlabour came to office twelve years ago? Nothing about the highest natioanl debt since WWII? Nothing about the chronic uncerinvestment in infrastructure, our crumbling roads, railways and power stations? Nothing about the decimating of the pension system? Nothing about the criminally high level of benefit claimants? Nothing about unfettered immigration?
Are you one of those newlabour apologist living in complete denial about your track record hoping to fight the election on the basis of empty smears about troy donors, toffs and lack of policy?
Go for it. Best of luck.
Call an election.
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Does anyone remember Tony Blair saying that he wanted us to leave the EU? Once our politicians get their noses in the troff of power and EU summits and all that, they soon sell their souls, or should I say, our Nation downt he river. Can you imagine whatthe lads in the Somme would make of all of this? Or Churchill? We seem to have a bunch of lilly livered politicians who are out for one thing, and the EU gives it to them - power and money!
We are the generation that finally saw Britannia conquered (no longer is she even on our money!) and the sad thing is, they didn't even fire a single shot!
We are the disgrace, not the politicians. After all, they do our bidding - if we make our voices heard enough!
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I do not often agree with you Mr.Robinson, but on this occasion and on this point, I do. Those who are anti-EU., need to know where they stand. Cameron must come out and state what his intentions are as far as the whole ratification process is concerned.
Will we adopt the Euro? This and other matters ( Common Agricultural Policy included) must be openly resolved well before any general election.
I certainly do not wish to spoil my vote for our sitting MP; so Cameron is lucky that we have a good Tory MP who also appears Euro-sceptic. Otherwise I may well go for UKIP. This Country needs the help of the voters and we must grasp the nettle.
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I think that most sensible people accept that there is little point having a referendum on a done deal. We are where we are. I recall that someone important once said that politics is the art of what is possible (or something like it). So long as David Cameron sets out a pragmatic policy statement then I think he will command the broad support of the British people. If he upsets a few dinosaurs in his party along the way so be it.
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Ho hum.
Well, we didn't see this coming, did we?
You're right in one thing though Nicholas:
"but does not persuade Eurosceptics inside the Tory party and beyond it that Cameron and Hague have "sold out", and put their desire for power before their principles.
Watch this space."
Precisely what Blair, Brown and Mandy did at the birth of the New Labour project. This is going to be the Tories Clause 4 moment.
If Cam has indeed "sold out" for power over principle, then lets hope that the electorate are maybe, just maybe that little bit sharper (having had the wool pulled over their eyes successfully 3 times by Blair) to fall for it again.
He will deservedly snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
I'm beginning to think the tories actually want to lose the next election.... thank God I'm abroad.
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31. At 11:35am on 03 Nov 2009, KennethM wrote:
#9 goldCaesar
What news story? Are you now saying the latest opinion coming out of the BBC is a news story?
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are you suggesting that tory policy (especially given their rather difficult histor ywith the subject) in & towards Europe isn't news.
Camerons going to make a statement later today clarifying his position on Britains future in Europe.
Perhaps the BBC could check with you first to decide whether this is new worthy?
perhaps it depends on whether you like what mr cameron is saying.
perhaps mr cameron shoyuuld check with you too.
In fact i'd imagine its all about you.
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David Cameron has proved that he is just like any other politician, wriggling and squirming, whilst desperately trying to figure out how he can renage on his promise. Not a very good start for a future prime minister!
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38 "David Cameron has proved that he is just like any other politician, wriggling and squirming, whilst desperately trying to figure out how he can renage on his promise. Not a very good start for a future prime minister!"
On the contrary. Perfect preparation, I'd say.
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"David Cameron says he'll tell us what his new position on Europe is later this week. It is the most important new policy announcement he may make before the next election."
Really, Nick? So what he might have to say about sorting out the shambles of the economy isn't of any note?
You political commentators really do live in an isolated little bubble, don't you.
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I'm sure it's just me, Nick, but a lot of your blogs are focused on Cameron but hardly any focused on that other bloke. You know, what's his name, runs the country.
We never seem to read your critical analysis of HIS thoughts, of HIS problems, of the perils confronting HIM.
Can't think why that might be. Can you?
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So the inevitable is about to happen ie., Czech ratification of the Lisbon Treaty. Where does this leave Mr Cameron? Answer - exactly where he knew he would be. Surely nobody was really taken in by his *commitment" to the holding of a referendum. This policy was designed solely to enable Mr Cameron to present himself and most of his shadow cabinet as holding a genuinely democratic position on our future relationship within Europe, whilst knowing full well that they would never be called to account on this matter. Sheer political opportunism of the worse kind to pander to the backwoodsmen of the Conservative Party. If anybody seriously imagines that by voting for the Conservatives they will be getting honest political leaders - think again! There is nothing to prevent a referendum being held at any time, if renegotiation is required.
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I like the fact that the bloggers who want a tory victory start accusing the BBC of bias. Makes me laugh a lot -I think you need to calm down there is a long way to go to the election and we don't want you to run out of hyperbole to soon we need these daily laugh out loud moments in these dark times.
Back to the topic -I think this is a seminal moment for Cameron the PR driven opposition leader. He needs to learn that the PR of the Blair years are over and it doesn't work any more. We've been there and destryoed the T shirt. He said in the Sun that this is a cast iron assurance in the article in 2007 even mentioning that unlike other politicians he can be trusted to keep his word. Hoisted by own pertard I think is the phrase we are looking for.
I think this is a very important story because the EU is so important for Britains economy and place in the global economy. I think Nick is right to raise this issue.
Unfortunately everytime DC says to GB at PMQ you can't be trusted this will come out of Gordons back pocket -it will really needle Cameron who seems to have a really thin skin. I hope DC is happy with the price Murdoch has extracted for his support. Unfortunatley it will destroy DC's premiership in the end. You do have to be careful with the friends you keep. Politics has suddenly got interesting again.
I predict that the next tory government will break over the anvil of Europe just like the last one -it's a shame really you would have thought they would have learnt that one by now.
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@ boabycat, post #29;
"At the last election, all three parties promised a referendum on the Lisbon constitution/treaty BEFORE it was ratified. Labour and the Lib Dems reneged on that promise."
I must ask the same question as goldCaesar put to maidstonerichard in post #23; exactly how have the LibDems reneged on an election promise? Given that they've never actually been elected?
As far as I know, the LibDems have always been broadly pro-Europe, but have also wanted to have a simple "Yes/No" Referendum on whether we should be in the EU at all; the same thing that I've suggested we need in my post #5, actually. And as far as I know, this position hasn't changed.
If they get elected - although that seems unlikely at this stage - and then they fail to give us that referendum, then they'll have 'reneged' on their promise.
Until that point they're not in a position to renege on anything, any more than the Tories are. Only difference is, the Tories actually have now said that they won't hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty after all, in light of the Czech vote (which is more a logical change of position rather than breaking a promise, as has been pointed out already) whereas, as far as I know, the LibDems still want to have the vote on whether we should be involved at all.
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This is his clause 4 moment. Is he in hock to the extreme right wing of his party, or is he a centrist. If he says no to a referendum and yes to constructive engagement he will be a leader. Any hint of destructiveness dressed up as doing the best for the country will mark him as an opportunist.
Will the real Mr Cameron please stand up?
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I don't think that we can turn this into a complain against David Cameroon, the problem is with the 'Democratically' Elected governments not being democratic and refusing the British Public the chance to have there say against the major changes in UK democratic policies that would occur from the shift of power to Brussels.
This is a major shift of power than the current policy and labour have done Uturns, conservatives will probable do a u turn, and once again the 'Democratic' European Union has gained the advantage without the true democratic process, Britain is not the only country not to hold a referundum.
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36 Fubar
how annoying I didn't see your post - I am sorry for agreeing with you.
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Oooh, looks like our lovely MP's are thinking of rejecting the expenses reforms.
Should this be referred to Europe?
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I see that Brown is just like the rest of us - hasn't got much money. Our problem is he's been in charge of our finances, what's his?
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Overall, I still don't see the problem with the treaty being ratified.
So if the Tories get in power (or indeed any other change of Government occurs in any other country) and say "sorry lads, don't want this treaty thing".
What are the other countries going to do? Invade? Risk the break up of the union?
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The new Conservative policy could be good news for EU-sceptics, but a lot depends on the list of powers they seek to re-negotiate. If it is just the employment and social policy opt-outs from Maastricht that were given up Tony Blair in 1997, then it would be very bad news because that means accepting everything in Lisbon, and indeed everything in Nice and Amsterdam too. I have heard mention that Justice and Home Affairs might be included in the list, but this seems disingenuous as the UK has something very much like an opt-out in JHA already (an opt-in on a case-by-case basis). I do not want to see flotsam like that in the list.
There are plenty of things in Lisbon which i have not heard mentioned at all though and which is worrying, because they should be on the list. For example EU foreign policy, with Lisbon allowing foreign policy to be decided by unanimity, but its implementation to be decided based on proposals from the EU high rep for foreign affairs (possibly Miliband) that are decided by QMV and with this EU rep having an automatic right to speak on our behalf in the UN Security Council when there is an EU foreign policy. It would be a unacceptable for Hague and the Conservatives to accept such major increases in EU power by limiting their ambition for re-negotiation to restoring the social and employment opt-outs from the 1992 Maastricht Treaty. If they do not intend to re-negotiate EU foreign policy power then Cameron must state that they will block all EU foreign policy while they are in office, and this should also apply to EU defence and other areas where there is still a veto.
It is not yet necessary i think for the Conservatives to outline the means they will use to bring pressure to bear on recalcitrant partners, as it is not wise to reveal their negotiating hand so far in advance. What is necessary now though is an indication that they have the political will to enter negotiations in all seriousness, with the wording of the manifesto mandate leaving sufficient wiggle room that they can play hardball in the negotiations if it proves necessary (e.g. refusing to agree EU budget, signing further accession treaties for countries like Croatia, etc.) without spelling out the exact details.
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I don't think Cameron has anything to ashamed about on this, unlike Labour he has kept to his pledge to hold a referendum. Now that the treaty has been rammed through by the Eurocrats and is ratified then what is the point of a post ratification referendum?
The people who should be felling ashamed are Labour who broke their manifesto commitment and even argued in Stuart Wheeler's court case that manifesto promises weren't legally binding (and then they wonder why so many people are dissillusioned with politics!). Labour are trying to big this issue up because, as the comment from the ludicrous Chris Bryant show, they are desperate for something that will blow the Tories off course. However, despite the isolated ranter like Bill Cash, the Tory rank and file will row in behind Cameron as they are determined to seize the chance for power.
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@ AndyC555, post #41;
"We never seem to read your critical analysis of HIS thoughts, of HIS problems, of the perils confronting HIM."
Which is a very strange comment, given that - as any regular reader of these blogs will know - every time Mr Robinson starts a topic such as the one you're describing above, you yourself are usually one of the first to get your tuppence-worth in. (Usually complaining that this time Nick's being biased because he isn't making Brown look bad enough!)
Is this, then, a clandestine admission on your part that you don't actually bother to read the details of what any one blog's actually about before you jump in and start making insinuations of bias?
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boabycat
'The electorate will remember that it was Labour and the Lib Dems that sold them down the river and it was the Tories who stood up for them.'
Yeah, ha ha ha! And I opposed the Norman invasion!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
If European law is extended to the UK does that mean we'll be able to get together with 20 of our mates on May Day, all pile on top of a donkey and goad it up to the top of a cliff with sharp sticks and then throw it off and have a firework display?
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ps
I agree that Cameron was foolish to make that promise. However, to be scrupulously fair to him, he was expecting a general election to be held in time for this to be deliverable - after all, if we'd had an election even last month the Tories could have put in a manistesto commitment - there would have been time!
[not that that would have made me vote for them, but that's a different issue.]
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#53 "We never seem to read your critical analysis of HIS thoughts, of HIS problems, of the perils confronting HIM."
Which is a very strange comment, given that - as any regular reader of these blogs will know - every time Mr Robinson starts a topic such as the one you're describing above.
"every time"?
None of the last 10 blogs have been about Brown, 4 of the last 10 have been about Cameron
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Sorry just to clarify I think if he stops playing the sceptic card and takes the harder root of not appeasing the nutters in his party he will earn a lot more respect than if he carries on faffing about with the extremes of Europe.
He could say he has had a complete rethink of their strategy and now he wants to make 2 changes (both to come in from the extremes of Europe).
1 To move into the centre right coalition. ditching his current pals
2 To embrace Europe -
At the same time if he admitted that there is little that can be done now the treaty is ratified - he would relieve himself of the exhausting prospect of constantly fighting Europe if he is the prime minister.
New Labour did do some things like this and although the political classes would be bothered about it and the extremists, everybody else would say how sensible.
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Oh and coming in from the extremes of Europe would also relieve us of the unedifying sight of Billie Hague rushing round Europe to prove that their coalition are not made up of parties that currently support the policies of the Third Reich.
I always prefer people who throughout their lives thought Hitler was a bad person.
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It is unedifying to see the glee with which the "we did not let you have a referendum" brigade are trying to taunt Cameron about the Lisbon Treaty. Cameron only has a dilemma because - unlike them - he seems to have values and to value honesty. One suspects that Blair, Brown etc are shameless enough not to have worried about breaking their promise to hold a referendum, and the great British voting public will probably recognise that this was becasue they feared that the public would vote "no", which would have stopped the Treaty. Cameron wanted to give the voter a chance to approve or stop the Treaty, but if - to the joy of the "referndum deniers" - the Treaty becomes law, there is no point in continuing to flog a dead horse. Hopefully the voters will be given the chance to have their say on the precise nature of the UK's future relationship with Brussels. And no, withdrawal is not the only option, nor - one suspects - would most voters want that.
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52. At 12:14pm on 03 Nov 2009, JPSLotus79 wrote:
I don't think Cameron has anything to ashamed about on this, unlike Labour he has kept to his pledge to hold a referendum. Now that the treaty has been rammed through by the Eurocrats and is ratified then what is the point of a post ratification referendum?
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I'm with you, i think the worst that can be said about Cameron on this issue is that promising the referendum on Lisbon showed a little, naivity, perhaps ignorance of how far the ratification process had gone when he made the statement.
Whatever, its almost an internal matter for the consevative party as they try to find a way to make progress in europe whilst keeping the pros,skeptics and rabid-antis from each others throats.
I don't think announcements about tory policy in Europe will ever gain them significant numbers of new voters, but it might loose some of the existing ones.
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56 AndyC555
So,as I'd suspected, Euro-scepticism is just thinly-veiled xenophobia. Funny foreigners and their funny customs. Let's keep them all at arm's length.
The rantings about democracy and sovereignty are just a smoke-screen.
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The reality is: Both Tories and Labour are useless.
The Nation is fooling itself by maintaining its irrational belief in the saviour, David Cameron. The glaring contradictions in Tory policy may be OK in opposition, but not in government.
Both parties are a sick joke. They are made up of people who can't do anything, haven't done anything and don't know what it is to do anything - except politics - and that not very well.
They are unable to engage in, or understand, a logical argument and have no understanding of science, engineering, economics, medicine etc. etc. and reject all well analysis data driven and researched results and declare that prejudice is best!
In short, we are trapped in the thrall of a load of ignorant idiots. It is our fault too! We have let our education system progressively deteriorate over the last 30 years. We have fooled ourselves that everyone is getting brighter and better educated - but this is in stark contrast to the facts.
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# 55
Come on Mods - the first part of what I wrote was factually accurate - check it on Wikipedia if you don't believe me. I responded to #17 by pointing out that the 1975 EU referendum was to stay in after renegotiation of terms, we entered in 1973 without a referendum.
The second part was responding to what others had been saying and was entirely OT.
What's to refer?
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balancedthought 60
"I always prefer people who throughout their lives thought Hitler was a bad person."
Which is a thought that becomes distinctly unbalanced when you consider the plight of those who had greater reason to fear Stalin.
Balancedthought, as ever, you are using your nickname as a figleaf to cover trite, half thought out, party-specific propaganda.
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#29 - boabycat
"At the last election, all three parties promised a referendum on the Lisbon constitution/treaty BEFORE it was ratified".
Here we go again.
They did no such thing. They promised a referendum on the draft constitution which was rejected by the French and the Dutch. I say again, you can argue until you are blue in the face about whether Gicard is right, that they are for all intents and purposes, the same thing, or Barosso who says they are completely different. You can call it a cop-out, a cosmetic exercise or a breach of faith if you like.
But please get your facts straight.
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66 JRPerry
Good point, stop dissing Hitler all you lefties!
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pdavies65 63
"So,as I'd suspected, Euro-scepticism is just thinly-veiled xenophobia. Funny foreigners and their funny customs. Let's keep them all at arm's length."
Andy's question could alternatively have been asked, "Are we going to see our age of consent reduced to 14, to match Austria, Germany, Hungary and Italy (to name just some of them)? Still just "funny foreigners and their funny customs?
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60#
You are David Milliband in disguise and I hereby claim my five Euros.
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68 pdavies65
Twit!
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#63
Oh dear, as I suspected, humourless and grey in outlook. It was a 'joke'. Of course I realise that in certain quarters a 'joke' is almost implicit with proof of some sort of "phobia" or "ism" in the teller.
Frank Richards responded to George Orwell's criticism of comics that made foreigners look funny in a letter to him:
"...As for foreigners being funny, I must shock Mr. Orwell by telling him that foreigners ARE funny."
Did you know that foreigners tell jokes about the British? That would put you in an awkward position, wouldn't it? I expect you'd be too PC to criticise THEM for doing that. I can just imagine your chain of thought "Well, hang-on, that joke was at the expense of certain percieved traits of the British but on the other hand we were a beastly colonial power for centuries so, yes, I will laugh"
p.s.
Could you cut and paste my "rantings about democracy and sovereignty" as I haven't read them yet, mainly because I haven't written on either subject.
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66 JRPerry
Just for the record if you look through my previous posts you will see I do indeed say on more than one occasion that ....
Stalin was the biggest butcher in history.
Personally I have never supported or had truck with Stalinists or fascists who have supported Hitler.
The problem the Tories have is that through political calculation this is where they find themselves.
I always know that if you are criticising me I must be saying something right. Bless you.
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John_from_Hendon @64 has just about got it right but I think that he understates it a tad!
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69 jrperry
It could have been asked in any number of ways. The revealing thing was the way he chose to ask it. That was my point.
And if you disapprove of, for example, a lower age of consent in some other European countries, the EU is the perfect forum for debating that, is it not? Without integration, there's no chance of influence.
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Pdavies65 68
Just in case my 71 goes the way of all things intemperate, I thought your "Good point, stop dissing Hitler all you lefties!" was a classic effort to deflect from the ignorance of your original post and betrayed, as ever, your desire to try to make party capital out of a situation that is far, far more complicated than you seem to be able to express. But 71, if it stays, sums you up more succinctly.
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#72
Sorry should have explained.
You'll have heard of George Orwell because he wrote stern polemic books, full of grit and grim. You may not have heard of Frank Richards as he wrote books with jokes in them.
Look forward to hearing from you about how we should respond in a politically correct way to jokes made at the expense of the British
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I find it extremely tiresome of yourself and the BBC in general to continue attempting to bring Cameron and the conservatives into disrepute over the Lisbon treaty, which was signed in what can only be seen as an act of treason by Gordon Brown, albeit in secret and alone. Surely it is within the remit of the BBC to , for once reflect the will of the British people and assist the pursuance of this referendum , which was promised by the government. Sadly however the BBC and your good self seem to have an agenda totally at odds with this. The lame excuse that the treaty is not the same document as the original constitution document is at best a deliberate lie, and this fact is what the media should concentrate on , not on what an as yet unelected politician can do about it.
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71 and 72
In consecutive posts I am insulted for making a joke and then derided for not 'getting' one.
eBullies.
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Another double whammy!
76
I've been called worse.
77 AndyC555 wrote:
"Look forward to hearing from you about how we should respond in a politically correct way to jokes made at the expense of the British."
As with all jokes, it would depend if they are funny or not.
You shouldn't assume that if somebody doesn't get your joke, it's because they are too politically correct. It could be that your joke wasn't very good. Just a thought.
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pdavies65 79
"eBullies"
When you say something stupid and get corrected for it, that is called criticism, not bullying.
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OK...I'm not one to point out the obvious but......
- There was no way that the Czech Republic were ever going to reject the Lisbon Treaty.
- Neither political party ever wanted a referendum on the Treaty.
- The Lisbon Treaty now exists; live with it!
- Every political party will now tell you that they would have had a referendum....but it is too late now.
- The U.K. should have objected when it had the chance (like the Irish) but they would rather wait for other people to make the decision for them.
- Referenda are never binding on the British government, they are no more than an opinion poll.
The U.K. should have objected when it had the chance. The horse has now bolted!
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"So, the Czech was not in the post"
Nick, if things don't go well for you under a new government you could always apply for a job at the Mirror - with a portfolio of headlines like this.
An upmarket Maguire?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Be interesting to see if the Tories poll numbers go down as a result of Cameron dropping his referendum idea. I suspect, if the conversation among the 15 members at my OAP luncheon club today is any indication, that UKIP and the EDL became a bit more attractive.
Mind you, it was probably Labour's intent all along to force Cameron into this position, knowing that by making him take the line he has, it will cost the Tories votes.
A hung Parliament looms ever closer.
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#82 Eurosider
What a stupid set of comments.
WE DID NOT GET A REFERENDUM, SO WE DID NOT GET THE OPPORTUNITY TO OBJECT.
It ought to be clear that enough people in this country do not like the treaty, but that's as far as we have been able to go. Pity really.
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1. At 10:15am on 03 Nov 2009, rockRobin7 wrote:
#Frankly, nothing David Cameron does can replicate the duplicity of the newlabour manifesto pledge to hold a referendum.
Well you would say that wouldn't you?.
What a typically meally mouthed post from one of the Tories sunshine boys on this blog.
The difference being my Tory friend is that Labour have never promised a referendum on the Lisbon treaty as comfirmed by top tory Ken Clark and his good chum Gummer. On the otherhand your man David Cameron and his good Friend Hague have promised a referendum on the Lisbon treaty.
Now we can watch with interest on how they try to wriggle out of their promise, that is the one that Labour have been slated over for a couple of years for the promise they never made.
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81 jrperry
Golly, you don't appreciate a bit of gentle ribbing, do you? You get quite vitriolic.
My serious point was, and is, that a strongly anti-Europe stance often (not always) betrays a degree of xenophobia which keen-eyed readers will be able to detect in some of the posts on this newslog.
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can you smell something?
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86. At 1:32pm on 03 Nov 2009, U14147588 wrote:
#82 Eurosider
What a stupid set of comments.
WE DID NOT GET A REFERENDUM, SO WE DID NOT GET THE OPPORTUNITY TO OBJECT.
It ought to be clear that enough people in this country do not like the treaty, but that's as far as we have been able to go. Pity really.
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The point about the status of the referendum in the british constitution is pretty valid. There's no existing mechanism for calling one, on anything.
I think any party calling one would certainly have to pass a law allowing the referendum to be held, posibly another one making it binding.
Which would have to significantly affect the time frame over which a referendum could take place.
Although as i said earlier we ne do need a UK referendum on EU membership.
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Can someone please explain to me why Cameron is continually described as about to renege on his referendum promise? He can't hold a referendum while in opposition and, by the time he is PM, the new constitution will be ratified and adopted, making a referendum irrelevant. I'm very confused about this, unless its merely designed to deflect from the fact that Nulabour didn't hold the referendum they promised.
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WHO CARES - Cameron will win the next election - thank God - at least someone will have the guts to try and return the UK to solvency at some time rather than printing billions / trillions and many future generations trying to repay the debt. This non story is typical Robinmson and BBC - look out for a new job Nick - u will need it when the Tories take an axe to your employers.
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This is new for a politician. Cameron breaks is pledges even before the election campaign is properly up & running. With this track record (what other great pieces of judgement do we have from him), I suggest we forget about a Tory government right now. It's an utter shambles. His only excuse could be, I didn't think it would be ratified.
If that's his judgement, then I don't want him as my PM - sorry!
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How many of the people anti-EU or anti-lisbon treaty have actually read the treaty?
Can you quote me the bit that you dislike the most?
Are you fully aware of the intended changes?
Do you understand the implications on UK law?
Do you understand the opt-out that the UK secured?
Do you know how it effect our daily lives?
Or are you just jumping on the anti-europe bandwagon and waving a union jack about?
There are people with genuine concerns about the treaty based on having a full knowledge of the effects and implications the treaty will have. The problem is they are getting drowned out by people with generic anti-EU attitudes that are 50 years out of date.
Personaly I think it's probably a good thing, but then I'll admit that I don't know the answers to the questions I've asked above. Thats the big problem, the average person on the street doesn't understand the treaty! All we know is what the press and politicians are telling us, which is mostly just comments saying its a good/bad idea.
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The absurdity of the position Cameron is in is that he has been asked to take a position on this issue at all.
An unelected prime minster signed a treaty on which subject his predecessor had made a manifesto commitment. That commitment was dishonored; like many newlabour commitments.
A typical example of newlabour mangling and spin; offer one thing, do another and claim your opponenet is to blame for it all.
This 'government' needs to stand down and allow a fresh agenda to be set as it has no mandate to govern with public support regularly below 30% since Gordon Brown was placed in the leader's job.
Clinging onto power for the sake of wrecking the country in the vain hope that an ill wind will blow and take the tories with it is just another example of the extreme boorishness that has beset this adminstration. How many times have we heard those dreadful words 'the right thing to do'? By whose measures are these the 'right things to do'???
The banking bailout was 'the right thing to do' yet again this morning we are having to spend billions more to support government and ministerial vanity. The fiscal stimulus was 'the right thing to do' yet we entered recession earlier and are still in it after 225bn of quantitative easing. Where has this money gone? We have a 70bn fiscal contraction in the economy in six quarters after a 1.3trn pound bank bail out and 225bn of quantitive easing. Yet does anyone, ever, ask this government; why is this still 'the right thing to do' and where has the money gone???
The people of this country have been taken for utter fools. Even the ECB admits that the money multiplier has broken down and yet this government's only policy response is to push still harder on the monetary stimulus button. We are well beyond the point at which the patient's body has stopped reacting to the electric shock treatment; we are now beginning to damage the corpse.
Give up spending; give us our referendum and stand down.
Then, finally the country can have the election it so desperately deserves.
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Hopefully this is the end of the 'Europe' debate. Cameron & Co can either put up, by pledging an IN/OUT referendum, or shut up.
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I have asked this question on both teletext and ceefax but never have I had any response of any Party.
"How on earth can we have a constructive referendun if the members of the public are not given the oppertunity to read and understand what the treaty is all about."
As it stands at the moment the public can only make their vote according to either what paper they read or party they follow.
I have many friend living in Europe and each has been able to obtain a copy without any problems. Where can the public buy a copy in this country??
When is comes to the Conservative holding a referendum after the event is really a waste of time and money for it could also be said that should hold one for every Treaty sign over the past centry.
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78 kaybraes
#which was signed in what can only be seen as an act of treason by Gordon Brown, albeit in secret and alone.
Strangely enough I saw Gordon Brown on TV appearing before a select committee for two hours, and a little later on after a trip to sign the Lisbon treaty I saw him quite clearly sit down and sign the treaty, I didn't see much secret about it,The man had the good grace to delay his signing for a couple of hours in order to carry out his prearranged meeting of the select committee and out of courtesy sent the foriegn minister to make his apologies, had he have not met the select committee at that time, you would have been slagging him off for that.
In secret Poppycock!!.
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Just wondering how the EU will reward Brown's treachery. Or is that just too cynical?
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Isn't this story rather pointless.
David has been outmanouvered by Europe, he's been pushed in to a corner and currently has no power to go against the tide that Gordon has created.
We were promised a referendum under Labour, they've had the power to give us what they said they would, they turned their backs on their promise and the democracy this country stands for.
All David can do is sit and watch as New Labour, by their undemocratic means, makes this part of the law of the country. There's not much he can do, what good is a vote on something that can't simply be reversed at the push of a button. We can't roll back time so we're stuck with it when it takes full effect, all David can do is limit the impact it has on this country as more of our country's decision making gets taken away.
It's bad enough having a government that doesn't want to listen to us and now they've decreed that the people of this country should be run from the centre of Europe.
This is a great travesty committed by New Labour and it will not be forgotten. Europe can cooperate and work together on issues without the need for a Constitution that forcefully ties us all together.
Europe has a history, we've gotten this far without a constitution, we don't need one now. I'm all for working together between European countries but there's such a thing as going too far and this is most definitely a step too far.
Bring on the election, New Labour, you've realised you're going to lose so now it's time for "Let's stitch up the next government so that we'll look pretty damn good when we're back in opposition and we can then blame everything on the Conservatives while we sit back and pretend that the past never actually happened". I detest New Labour with extreme passion.
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Surely the lesson from this whole sorry mess is that the UK now desperately needs a proper written constitution? The unwritten constitution worked well for centuries because politicians agreed to be bound by convention and not go beyond it, but then came along Blair and his band of servile careerists who revelled in breaking all the old conventions "because we can!" If we had had a written constitution then like Ireland, it's possible that the government would have been obliged to hold a referendum on Lisbon and the treaty would have been killed.
Personally I believe in a federal UK with each component nation having it's own Parliament and full autonomy with a small national Parliament to handle defence, foreign affairs and strategic matters. We also need a proper seperation of powers between the executive and the legislative branches so that the government can be properly held to account. Parliament worked when MP's answered only to their own consciences. For all of their occassionally eccentric views give me MP's like Leo Abse, Gwyneth Dunwoody, Frank Field, Tony Benn, Clement Freud, Cyril Smith, Alan Clark, Eric Forth, Nicholas Fairbairn, Anne Widdiecombe and yes even Enoch Powell anyday! In contrast most of the current lot are desperate for a chance to get up the ministerial ladder so they let the governemnt get away with anything!
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I totally agree with balancedthought. David Cameron has got himself between a rock and a hard place to placate the Eurosceptics in his Party. The most hardline of these want out of Europe, but have given no thought to what that really means - business-wise, trade-wise, travel-wise - quite apart from the benefits to working/business women (part of the Social chapter), and a ream of other benefits. I notice that the farming community is quiet at the moment, given that EU assistance is paid in euros (therefore currently at parity ), and I would have thought that in the shire counties of England this might be a rather weighty consideration ahead of the election.
Get real - the UK needs the EU far more than they need us!
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#32 Robin
Nope, I'm not a New Labour apologist, definitely not and I shan't be voting for them.
Unfortunately, I have to vote for someone and the Conservatives look a mess to me - a divided party, numerous misjudgements, polishing-up donors for office, etc etc etc.
To be honest, they look like more of the same but with a bit more chaos (I'm talking Blair not Brown years). Sure, we've heard their 'policies' but how exactly are they going to put these great plans into action - most of their policies look unworkable.
Cameron comes across as a bit of a Barack Obama, all talk and no substance. I bet he'll be just like him too, backing down instead of risking the support of lobby groups and the media - he's in the pocket and anyone with an open mind this country knows it.
If being objective makes me a New Labour apologist, so be it, it just shows how biaised you are.
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#91 EssentialRabbit
True as far as it goes but, as I pointed out, Cameron knew that his referendum promise was meaningless when he made it.
Can you imagine the chaos in the Tory party that a referendum would cause?
Still, we small mammals must stick together at a time like this ;)
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97. At 1:50pm on 03 Nov 2009, pensioner
Totally agree with you.
If the tories do hold a referendum after the election (assuming they win, it's not in the bag yet) I think they might be supprised by the result. If they don't I think it would come very close to destroying the party. The right wing of the party is and has always been anti europe and slightly xenophobic (I'm not suggesting racist, just that they are wary of change). If theres a definate pro europe stance from the tory front bench there will be deep divisions in the party, as we saw for a decade after Labour beat them.
The tories are basically a collection of factions that are almost in agreement, but where they disagree they do so fundamentaly. Cameron needds to avoid chipping away at the cracks if he wants to be the party leader for longer than his recent predecessors.
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96. At 1:49pm on 03 Nov 2009, Richard_SM wrote:
Hopefully this is the end of the 'Europe' debate. Cameron & Co can either put up, by pledging an IN/OUT referendum, or shut up.
********************
It won't be the end of course.
Unlike many of the politicians and most bloggers, I have actually read both the Constitution and the Treaty. It's hard going and totally incomprehensible in places. Then again it was meant to be. As D'Estaing said, they ouldn't take a chance on it being understood.
The real arguments are yet to come once it is realised just how much aditional power has been handed over to EU control. Even those areas where the UK supposedly still has control are subject to EU approval.
If taken to its extreme, the powers now invested in the EU can render National Government to the status of local Government.
No wonder it has all been done in such a dishonest, underhanded manner.
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pdavies65 88
"My serious point was, and is, that a strongly anti-Europe stance often (not always) betrays a degree of xenophobia which keen-eyed readers will be able to detect in some of the posts on this newslog"
Trying to classify Eurosceptics as xenophobics is merely to betray your ignorance of the reasons why reasonable people would have concerns about yielding significant powers to an appointed body (the European Commission) and away from an elected body (Parliament). Plenty of people don't really care where the unelected body sits - London, Paris, Maida Vale - the point is, it is inherently undemocratic. You choose to assert that people who have these concerns are xenophobic because you think it makes arguing your case easier. In other words, your point about xenophobia is nothing better than sloppy, lazy, dishonest and ignorant.
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#80 "You shouldn't assume that if somebody doesn't get your joke, it's because they are too politically correct. It could be that your joke wasn't very good."
I would never assume such a thing. My rough rule of thumb is that if someone doesn't think a joke is funny they will say something along the lines of:
"that joke wasn't very funny"
and if they are reacting in a politically correct way, they will say something along the lines of"
"So,as I'd suspected, Euro-scepticism is just thinly-veiled xenophobia."
Hang on, I'll just pop back up the postings and check, just to be sure which it was you said.
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The anti-EU brigade need to realise that it's not the 50s anymore. Britian is basically irellevant in the worlds affairs now compared to 50 years ago.
You could take britian off the planet and the world would carry on much the same, there would be a slight wobble in the worlds stock markets and some redistribution of trade etc but thats about it.
Face it , Britian needs the EU to be a real political force in the world.
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If I were a Labour supporter, I'd be quite happy to see the Tories lose the next election by 'banging on about Europe' in the same way as they lost the last three.
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102. At 2:01pm on 03 Nov 2009, bogatty wrote:
...... I notice that the farming community is quiet at the moment,...
************
Yup. We are quiet. Why? Because we're still in shock and waiting for the PROMISED reform of the CAP that Blair gave away £6 billion of our rebate for.
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Surley the REAL story is the position that New Liebour took over the
"referendum" that they promised one but never delivered one.
maybe its becuase they do not like democracy, much like the BBC
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"88. At 1:40pm on 03 Nov 2009, pdavies65 wrote:
My serious point was, and is, that a strongly anti-Europe stance often (not always) betrays a degree of xenophobia which keen-eyed readers will be able to detect in some of the posts on this newslog."
And my serious point is that I'd made no mention of my stance on Europe, nor had I posted anything about sovereingty but that I was being accused of being xenophobic. I had made a jpke based on a cliche, something all races, creeds and colours do about other races creeds and colours. Some of these jokes are funny, others not.
Then I asked what the proper response to a joke told at the expense of the British should be. Should one accuse the teller of being a ranting xenophobe or should one curl up in a PC ball, torn between contradictions, for example?
But I didn't get a proper response.
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pdavies65
THEN I queried one of your accusations, asking:
"Could you cut and paste my "rantings about democracy and sovereignty" as I haven't read them yet, mainly because I haven't written on either subject."
But I haven't had a proper answer to that either.
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97. At 1:50pm on 03 Nov 2009, pensioner wrote:
I have asked this question on both teletext and ceefax but never have I had any response of any Party.
"How on earth can we have a constructive referendun if the members of the public are not given the oppertunity to read and understand what the treaty is all about."
As it stands at the moment the public can only make their vote according to either what paper they read or party they follow.
I have many friend living in Europe and each has been able to obtain a copy without any problems. Where can the public buy a copy in this country??
*****************
Both the Treaty and the Constitution are available on line or you may find a copy of both in the reference section of a library.
If you are going to read them be prepared to be baffled, bored, bewildered and not much wiser once you have read them 8-)
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109. At 2:11pm on 03 Nov 2009, Colonicus42 wrote:
Face it , Britian needs the EU to be a real political force in the world.
********************
And apart from making politicians feel important, why do we need to be a 'real political force in the World?'
All its done so far is got us into a couple of allegedly illegal wars.!!
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107 jrperry
"In other words, your point about xenophobia is nothing better than sloppy, lazy, dishonest and ignorant."
- - - - - -
I agree that I am sloppy and lazy, but dishonest and ignorant? How dare you!
And if you think the anti-Europe camp is populated entirely by high-minded defenders of democracy then you have never seen a copy of the Daily Express.
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@ AndyC555, post #58;
"None of the last 10 blogs have been about Brown, 4 of the last 10 have been about Cameron"
And in the 10-day period between 23rd September and 3rd October, every single blog (with the exception of one) was either about Brown directly, or about some failing of the Labour Government. And most of them could be interpreted as highly critical - they were talking about Obama snubbing Brown, about Ghadaffi humiliating him at the UN, about his plan to cut back on Britain's nuclear defenses which provoked outrage from all corners.
OMFG, INSIDUOUS RIGHTY-BIAS, WE MUST PUBLICLY HANG EVERYBODY AT THE TORY PROPAGANDA WING THEY CALL "THE BBC" IMMEDIATELY, *rant* *rant* *rant*, etc.
So, where was your finely-honed bias-detector during that period, Andy? I mean, you were present in most of the debates at the time; and yet you utterly failed to make an issue of the fact that Robinson is clearly a proven stooge of the Tory party, being paid by Cameron to produce non-stop anti-Brown propaganda!!!
Seriously; did it never occur to you, Andy, that maybe - just maybe - Brown hasn't actually done anything of any real note in the last 10 days? Whereas Cameron's made many statements that most of us would consider highly significant, especially given the fact that he's the most likely person to be in No. 10 after the next election?
Anyway, all of the above has nothing to do with your intellectual dishonesty in post #41, upon which I was pulling you up - namely, how you blatantly lied and claimed that you "never" see any NR blogs which focus on Brown and his trials and tribulations; despite the fact that Mr Robinson writes blogs about these matters all the time, and despite the fact that you yourself regularly participate in them?
Got any further comments about that? Or maybe an apology for your attempts to denigrate Mr Robinson's neutral reporting in the absence of being able to make any sensible comment on the issue at hand?
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#109
Agreed, we should be in Europe, after all not one of EU Governments have wish to go to War unlike those across the Atlantic. If we left the EU we would find the voice of the pro USA lobby shouting we should become the next US State and then a greater target for anit-American terorist.
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113 AndyC555
Sorry, I thought I had answered this in 80. If somebody tells a joke at the expense of a racially-stereotyped Brit, then yes, you are free to laugh provided:
a) the joke is funny
and
b) you have a sense of humour
114 You are quite right, which is why I avoided answering before. I was getting you mixed up with somebody else. But my point is still valid (for that somebody else).
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Just for all those who claim that Nick is biased against the Tories - here is a list of his blogs in October and you can see no bias whatsoever.
30 October : Over to you Foreign Secretary : "until Mr Kaminski expresses full and unreserved regret over what he said and did in relation to the Jedwabne massacres I will continue to criticise the Tory alliance with him."
29 October : Changing Britain's Relationship with EU : "The chancellor of Germany and the president of France are infuriated by the behaviour of the man who their diplomats tell them looks set to be Britain's next prime minister."
27 October : El Presidente : "What he wouldn't do was repeat William Hague's alleged warning that a future Conservative government would regard the selection of Tony Blair as president of the European Council as "a hostile act"."
23 October : Nick Griffin on Question Time : Nothing anti-tory
22 October : Cameron The Heathite : - article devoted to how tories failed to confront the Postal Officers Union
21 October : Is all publicity good punlicity? : Nothing Anti Tory
20 October : BNP 'Hang Generals' just humour : quotes at length an anti-torystance by the BNP
20 October : Postitive Action not Positive discrimination : article about all-women shotlists in Tory Party
20 October : SO near and yet so far : neutral article
15 October : david Willshire - Tory MP to stand down
15 October : going going - david Willshire standing down
15 October : Was 2000 a myth? :Attack on General Dannatt (Tory spokesman to be on defence)
14 October : Rising Slowly : increase in unemployment portrayed as 'good news'
13 October : has he a Lgg to stand on : neutral
08 October : Cameron's personal plea : dismissive of speech : "No wonder he looked and sounded nervous - his voice struggling to meet the scale of the occasion."
08 October : Conferences not what they used to be : Tory conferences were always the most stage-managed
07 October : Another Gaffe : Repeating Chris Graylings Gaffe
07 October : General Gimmick - Chris Grayllings Gaffe
07 October : Cameron talks with Dannatt
06 October : A massive electoral gamble : The Tories today took a massive electoral gamble.
06 October : Pensions an urgent clarification :"Frantic breakfast consultations for Team Cameron this morning when they realised that the hasty unveiling of their pension plans could lead to headlines that if you were a 50-year-old woman you might have to work for up to three years longer before getting your state pension. "
05 October : Benefits cuts concensus : "Labour are not condemning Tory proposals to take £25 a week off people on incapacity benefit who are deemed "fit for work".
04 October : Cameron keepsschtum on Lisbon : "So what does the self-proclaimed "straight talking" guy say about one of the biggest foreign policy dilemma he's likely to face if he becomes prime minister?
Nothing. Nowt. Nix. Zippo. Zilch.
03 October : Brown Agrees to debate :"David Cameron is sure to be cautious about this "
So there is EVERY single Blog done by Nick in October
How many are about government policy?
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#86
In response to my 'stupid' comments....
Check the score.
Referenda on the Lisbon Treaty:
Irish Government 2-0 British Government
I think you lost by default!
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Many say they are in favour of the EU. I have to presume they are also in favour of unelected quangos like the European Commission making decisions about their future behind closed doors.
Thank goodness this treaty has more or less gone through for we now know where we are with it and we can stop baying for the referendum that never happened and await David Cameron's next moves.
I think we have seen enough and had enough of the way the EU is operating so I hope we will not be disappointed with Cameron's proposals on what part needs to be retained and what can be disposed of.
The EU has grown into an out of control and inefficient monster and perhaps Cameron's proposals will start the radical changes that it needs.
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#97. pensioner
It's available online, though it's heavy going.
Or there's this BBC summary if you prefer:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6928737.stm
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In reference to Zydeco, post #115
"Both the Treaty and the Constitution are available online..."
Indeed. The text of the Lisbon Treaty is available here;
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
And the text of the original EU Constitution can be found here;
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/JOHtml.do?uri=OJ:C:2004:310:SOM:EN:HTML
...just in case anybody's interested in checking out the facts at this stage.
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Oooh, the little lefties have got their dander up. Only 17 points behind, but they're predicting victory.
I must admit, it's highly amusing as they get ever more narrowly focused and shrill (although to be fair, I'm probably taking poetic licence on that one), and inaccurate.
Keep it up boys, you're making an older and wiser man very happy.
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87. At 1:39pm on 03 Nov 2009, grandantidote wrote:
1. At 10:15am on 03 Nov 2009, rockRobin7 wrote:
#Frankly, nothing David Cameron does can replicate the duplicity of the newlabour manifesto pledge to hold a referendum.
Well you would say that wouldn't you?.
What a typically meally mouthed post from one of the Tories sunshine boys on this blog.
The difference being my Tory friend is that Labour have never promised a referendum on the Lisbon treaty as comfirmed by top tory Ken Clark and his good chum Gummer. On the otherhand your man David Cameron and his good Friend Hague have promised a referendum on the Lisbon treaty.
Now we can watch with interest on how they try to wriggle out of their promise, that is the one that Labour have been slated over for a couple of years for the promise they never made.
===
Indeed grand, Labour even went to court to argue that a Labour manifesto promise is not worth the paper it is written on, AND THEY WON!
"Cecilia Ivimy, for the government, said: "A manifesto promise is incapable of giving rise to a legally binding contract with the electorate. It is a point which is so obvious that I don't want to labour it."
So well done them. It should make their 2010 General Election Manifesto interesting, shouldn't it? As they have already established that it is meaningless.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7233175.stm
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#122 eurosider
Are you sure?
I mean, how did I lose? The Irish government were bullied into holding the second election, but OUR government (I am not Irish, and I can't vote in theirs) did NOT see fit to hold one.
So, again, HOW did I lose?
Stupid boy
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I'd be all for a referendum if I had any faith in the general public's ability to vote based on the pros and cons of the treaty, rather than the xenophobic, borderline racist attitude that plagues all walks of British society today.
This is effectively the issue Ireland had in that everyone just assumed "foreigners = bad" the first time round. It took massive amounts of campaigning for people to realise that well, maybe foreigners aren't all that bad after all. Once the public in Ireland understood the issues at hand, they were able to make a more informed choice.
I'm not sure why people are whining about not getting an EU referendum and how this is undemocratic when we have an even bigger issue back home here in Britain in that due to the first past the post system we keep getting governments that receive effective 100% of power due to the whip system and a majority in the commons despite only getting around 35% to 40% of the vote. Whilst we keep getting parties holding 100% of power against the will of 60% to 65% of the population we've got much bigger problems home here. In the 2005 election for example 19 million people's vote simply did not count due to safe seats, how can we possibly whine about the democratic values of a referendum on the EU when 19 million of our voters didn't actually have a real effective vote?
The idea Britain is a democracy is a joke, at best we're a dictatorship where an organised minority is able to impose a leader on the majority with more disjoint political views with the only thing sepearating us from most other dictatorships is that there is at least a limit on the power and length of time said dictators like Blair, Brown and soon Cameron can hold their grip on power.
Britain needs rid of first past the post before we even begin to worry about a referendum on the EU- if we did that then a referendum on the EU could've come naturally anyway.
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This is article 2 of the 'Lisbon Treaty'
Article 2
The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities.
These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail.
So why do they want us in then ?
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"120. At 2:43pm on 03 Nov 2009, pdavies65 wrote:
113 AndyC555
Sorry, I thought I had answered this in 80. If somebody tells a joke at the expense of a racially-stereotyped Brit, then yes, you are free to laugh provided:
a) the joke is funny
and
b) you have a sense of humour"
But if you tell a joke at the expense of a foreigner that isn't in your opinion funny that makes you a xenophobe?
And since whether a joke is funny is subjective...
Whether you are a xenophobe depends on the subjective interpretation of a joke involving national sterotypes by the hearer of the joke?
OK, at least I know now.
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jrperry - "Andy's question could alternatively have been asked, "Are we going to see our age of consent reduced to 14, to match Austria, Germany, Hungary and Italy (to name just some of them)? Still just 'funny foreigners and their funny customs?'"
You know that many Americans think that WE'RE sick for having 16 as an age of consent, right? And, incidentally, how does our teenage pregnancy compare with those cuontries you've mentioned?
Further, the EU will not force through a harmonised age of consent. Either you're being xenophobic or you're scaremongering. Whichever it is, please stop. We have enough of that in the redtops.
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121. At 2:47pm on 03 Nov 2009, weejonnie wrote
Nothing. Nowt. Nix. Zippo. Zilch.
03 October : Brown Agrees to debate :"David Cameron is sure to be cautious about this "
So there is EVERY single Blog done by Nick in October
How many are about government policy?
--------------------------------
you can quote chapter and verse, you can produce a million eyewitnesses, video evidence and keep a log of every event.
You will never convince a conspiracy theorist they are wrong.
The closest you will come is convincing them that you are part of the conspiracy.
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WHICH Party PROMISED us a referendum and had it in their mainifesto????
Answer - THE LIEBOUR PARTY- which is where ALL the blame for EU should be laid. I for one will never vote LIEBOUR again.
As for DC - he can not offer a referendum now that the article is EU law, so end of story, but no doubt BBC and Liebour ranters will keep it going but it will not prevent a Tory Govt in 2010 - then they can set about trying to repair this banana republic which Clown and Co have left.
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In reference to my post #125;
Oops! Sorry, don't know what went wrong with those URLs. They both worked fine when I copied them. Now one's been removed as "Broken/Unsuitable", and the other one (although still there) doesn't seem to work either.
Ok, second attempt - start at http://europa.eu/index_en.htm which is the official (English Version) EU Website. Both the EU Constitution and the Treaty of Lisbon are searchable, although you may have to search for them.
If this link doesn't work, I give up. Find it your damn selves! :oP
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#118
"And in the 10-day period between 23rd September and 3rd October, every single blog (with the exception of one) was either about Brown directly, or about some failing of the Labour Government. And most of them could be interpreted as highly critical..."
[I've added a few bits from Nick's blogs so people can see just how critical of Brown Nick can be]
" they were talking about Obama snubbing Brown"
NR [What Team Brown did not anticipate is that it would be the prime minister's relationship with the man he sees as a friend, ally and political soulmate - Barack Obama - which would threaten to overshadow the substance of the week's diplomacy.
Odd this since, if you listen to both men's speeches to the UN, it's clear they are in political lock step. Gordon Brown has long dreamed of an American president who would give a speech like the one Obama gave to the United Nations.
What's more, by week's end, prime minister and president were standing shoulder to shoulder]
AND
NR [Snub? What snub?
So Gordon Brown had the ultimate answer to those who said he'd been snubbed by Obama.
This morning, he stood shoulder-to-shoulder with the American president]
"about Ghadaffi humiliating him at the UN"
NR [In fact Gaddafi's theatrical tearing up of the UN charter gave the prime minister an irresistible opportunity to slap down Libya and stand up for the United Nations at one and the same time.]
AND
NR [Gaddafi UN drama serves ace to Brown]
"about his plan to cut back on Britain's nuclear defenses which provoked outrage from all corners."
[outrage in all corners, apparently except in NR's blog which I read and closer I could come to finding criticism was:]
NR [Anything which could be presented as an offer to give up Britain's programme entirely would be political dynamite.
On the one hand it would cheer many voters who regard nuclear weapons as either immoral or unnecessary and unaffordable in the modern age.
On the other, it would risk re-opening the painful wounds which were opened in the 1980s by Labour's embrace of unilateralism.]
If that lot above represents Nick Robinson being "highly critical" I'd hate to read anything that praised Brown.
My point, poorly put I grant you, was not whether the blog ever covered Brown at all but whether anything said ever amounts to critical analysis rather then explaining what Brown is doing then putting a positive spin on it. Events in Cameron's political life are portrayed as 'problems and difficulties" and events in Brown's as "achievements."
On the basis of the above, no apology is due.
As for Brown doing nothing in the last 10 days, I wish it were that he had done nothing in the last 12 years.
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I always suspected that VacuDave would say virtually anything in order to get to Downing Street.However, I did not think that on one of his first real tests of leadership he would embark on an act of treachery against the eurosceptic wing of his party,those that did so much to secure his position as leader (described by Kenneth Clark as barmy).Are these the sort of values one acquires on the playing fields of Eton and membership of the thuggish Bullingdon Club?
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The UN Charter (article 55), under International Economic and Social Co-operation, contains a line about the respect for the principle of equal rights and SELF-DETERMINATION of peoples...
It also mentions the advancement of self-government or independence.
Article 1, Part 1 of the UN Covenant on Civil and Political Rights states "All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."
So under the UN Charter and Covenant a country's people have the unalienable right to decide how they want their country to be governed. Which means that, as the Lisbon Treaty allows external non-democratically elected people to make decisions which affect our daily lives, it is in breach of the UN's charter. The argument that as we voted for this Labour government they should therefore have the right to decide how we are governed.. doesn't really hold, as it is ceding some of its powers to an unelected external jurisdiction. In other words, under the UN Charter and Covenent is it not our right to approve or reject the Lisbon Treaty?
(btw I'm in favour of the Union, but not in its present form.)
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I am a lifelong conservative voter in my seventh decade, but I will NOT vote for the party next year unless there is a more democratic option in the manifesto on the EU than appears at present to be the case. The way in which this country has been sleepwalked towards a superstate called Europe - a deceitful process that has been under way for decades - is shameful and utterly undemocratic.
Many have been impressed by Mr Cameron's proposals to hand more power back to the people: can there be a more important issue on which to demonstrate your commitment to that ideal?
He should now trust the British people and offer a clear referendum – but not on the Lisbon Mis-Treaty, which as he rightly says will have passed in to law - rather on whether or not the people wish to be in the EU at all. What has he got to lose, if he truly trusts the people?
In or out, it’s the PEOPLE who surely have the right to decide, a right which they have been consistently promised, and shamefully denied, by politicians of all parties, up to and including Mr Brown.
Quite soon, Mr Cameron will be the ONLY person in a position to rectify this denial and enable that right to be exercised.
It's very simple: a referendum on "in or out" (leader and shadow ministers to campaign whichever way they want!) is I suggest the only principled course now, and quite possibly also the best way to a landslide victory at the election. In that event we will be lead into a future in which the voters, not the Eurocrats, have been given their rightful say.
David Cameron is doing a great job, but it’s nearly too late for him to prevent a curtain of unaccountable bureaucracy subsuming this still great nation. Many of us love Europe, and Europeans, but we have no wish to become a member of something akin to an EUSSR.
The hand of history is on your shoulder, Mr Cameron! An unworkable pledge to "work for amendments within" will never stop the juggernaut before it reaches its final objective - and it will not satisfy conservative voters at the general election either.
Please don’t let us down at this time of need – your country is depending on you.
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109. At 2:11pm on 03 Nov 2009, Colonicus42 wrote:
Face it , Britian needs the EU to be a real political force in the world.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why? I mean why do we even want to be any kind of political force in the world?
I would be quite happy to sit back a bit now, get out of world politics, stop sending our military all over the place, end foriegn aid, just generally mind our own buisness and stay out of all the rest of it.
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All the apologists who say that Labour's referendum promise from 2005 is irrelevant are just being pathetic and arguing semantics. The principle of some UK laws becoming subservient to a higher authority remains the same, and this is the only thing that matters.
Governments govern only with the will of the people, without it, they aren't governments, they are dictatorships.
Bringing in any new level of governance without the mandate of the people first is generally known as a coup. This might be a non-military coup, done in offices by people in suits instead of soldiers, but it's still a coup.
The last referendum on Europe was in 1975 (I believe), which means that no-one under the age of 46 has had a chance to vote on this issue.
I think you'll generally find that the main reason anyone is Euro-sceptic has absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia or racism, but everything to do with the fact that they've been completely removed from a decision-making process. After all, when people try to sneak up on you and do things without your consent, it invariably comes across that they're up to no good and shouldn't be trusted.
As I've said from the start, if the Lisbon Treaty is so great and wonderful for us, why not actually try and win us over with it? If it's fantastic and in our interests then I'll be happy to go along with it as I'm sure others will be. Surely this approach has to be ethically superior than forcing it on us without any debate at all.
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131 AndyC555
You seem to be struggling to express yourself. Let me help.
"If I tell an unfunny joke about a stereotyped foreigner, does that make me a xenophobe?"
Probably, yes.
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129. At 3:09pm on 03 Nov 2009, iwinter wrote:
I'd be all for a referendum if I had any faith in the general public's ability to vote based on the pros and cons of the treaty, rather than the xenophobic, borderline racist attitude that plagues all walks of British society today.
-----------
Yeah, i used to be in exactly the same position, now i've changed it.
Firstly we live in a democracy, if the majority of people in the UK are '
xenophobic, borderline racist' they are still a majority. as i said before, you get the country you desrve.
Secondly if we have a referendum at least people will have to stop blaming the EU conspiracy for every little thing that irks them about British society.
Finally, why should it be up to people like me & you to argue the pro-eu case when the main political parties are either silent or anti-eu.
Labour have never tried to defend the EU to my knowledge, the liberals claim they are pro, but why has no-one challenged UKIPS asertion that we pay the EU 60 million a day and get absolutely nothing back?
I can only conclude that both Labour & lib dems have given up on convincing the british of the benefits of the EU, whilst the tories actively deride it.
I say again, why should we be bothered to try to justify EU membership, in our own time and off our own initiative, when clearly none of our political parties( who you could argue actually have a duty to do so)will make the effort themselves?
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139
Do you really believe that even if the Tories did promise us 'a clear referendum' which led to a landslide victory for them in the next election, that they wouldn't just go back on their word?
You do know how to tell when a politician is lying don't you, Falcy baby? It's when their lips move.
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132 Inspired by TA6
I am neither scaremongering, not being xenophobic. It is mischevious of you in the extreme to suggest otherwise. Also, I am getting pretty sick of "xenophobia" being used as a catch-all label for those who have valid and legitimate concerns about the undemocratic nature of the EU - as arguments, or what pass for them here (really, it is just sloganizing) it's sloppy, lazy and dishonest.
The point I was making was merely to drive the nail in harder on pdavies65's poorly thought-out post at 63 - far from coincidentally, another accusation of xenophobia. And I'm not going to get into an argument with you about teenage pregnancy either, which is off-topic.
I note your (presumably made-up) remark about the US view of our age of consent. The majority of US states also set the age at 16, fourteen have it at 17 or older, four have it 15 or younger. Lesson - it pays to check your facts before you post!
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137. At 3:32pm on 03 Nov 2009, braveSouter wrote:
I always suspected that VacuDave would say virtually anything in order to get to Downing Street.However, I did not think that on one of his first real tests of leadership he would embark on an act of treachery against the eurosceptic wing of his party,those that did so much to secure his position as leader (described by Kenneth Clark as barmy).Are these the sort of values one acquires on the playing fields of Eton and membership of the thuggish Bullingdon Club?
===
I think your record has got stuck!
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rr @ 134
"I for one will never vote LIEBOUR again"
you'll be sorely missed, Ronnie ... only hope you know that
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#23 and 44
Without wanting to get into an argument over the meaning of the word renege, the Lib Dems were whipped into abstaining on the vote on a referendum and front benchers who voted in favour were sacked - whatever you call it that's hardly complying with their manifesto.
On the subject of bias if you read what I said I was quite clear that on the topic of Europe the only criticism seems to be of the tories position. I happen to disagree with most bloggers in that this blog is generally pretty neutral.
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#141 me
I meant of course, no-one under the age of 52, not 46. It's been a long day ;)
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c555 @ 113
"I was being accused of being xenophobic"
think I missed the answer
are you xenophobic, Andy?
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"142. At 4:07pm on 03 Nov 2009, pdavies65 wrote:
131 AndyC555
You seem to be struggling to express yourself. Let me help.
"If I tell an unfunny joke about a stereotyped foreigner, does that make me a xenophobe?"
Probably, yes."
You seem to be struggling to understand the point.
Whether a joke is funny is a subjective opinion.*
Are you really saying that you believe that if a person tells a joke involving a national stereotype to some-one who laughs, the joke teller is OK but if the person does not laugh, that makes the joke teller probably xenophobic?
Nothing to do with how the joke teller behaves, what his thougts and values and opinions are. Just the reaction by a listener to a joke.
Wow.
(*although your view would make more sense if you had appointed yourself the 'joke police' with powers to decree which jokes are and are not funny. I know those on the left do like this sort of approach. Is that is what is happening here?)
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jrp @ 107
"Trying to classify Eurosceptics as xenophobics"
not ALL of them, JR ... that would be stereotyping of the most reprehensible kind (and you know my feelings on that, I would imagine)
maybe around a third to a half?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
147. At 4:22pm on 03 Nov 2009, sagamix wrote:
rr @ 134
"I for one will never vote LIEBOUR again"
you'll be sorely missed, Ronnie ... only hope you know that
===
Saga, how can you presume to speak on behalf of the Labour Party IF you are a floating voter?
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@135
Website of the European treaties
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@ AndyC555, post #136;
"If that lot above represents Nick Robinson being "highly critical" I'd hate to read anything that praised Brown."
Well, no, of course it doesn't. Because, much like you cherry-picked a 10-post period where the blogs happened to be mainly Cameron-related in order to make it look like you had a point, you also cherry-picked only those specific comments from the blogs in question which aren't directly or indirectly critical of Brown.
Take this bit from the "Obama Snubs Brown" blogs, for instance;
"What we do know is that a prime minister in real political trouble faces a press willing to put the worst gloss on most stories and lacks a good enough friend in the White House to lend him some of his charisma."
So, Nick is telling us that Brown is in big trouble, that he lacks any Charisma and won't get any by sucking up to the Americans, and that he's regularly getting slaughtered in the press? Doesn't sound exactly "pro-Brown", does it?
Anyway, let's not get side-tracked; your original point was that Nick was being "biased" because the last 10 posts were merely about - or at least, making reference to - David Cameron. Nothing about them being "pro" or "anti" him; you seemed to feel that because there had been 4 blogs about Cameron but none about Brown, that this in itself qualified as "bias".
Why, then, do you not feel that a similar period when almost all the blogs were about Brown, and none at all about Cameron, was just as biased (if not more so)?
Note also that none of the 4 blogs you mention are particularly critical of Cameron; in these, much like the set of Brown-related stories I highlighted, Robinson is simply giving us a run-down of the problems both leaders face, some of the statements they've made and an explanation of their stated plans for the future.
"My point, poorly put I grant you, was not whether the blog ever covered Brown at all ..."
Yes it WAS, Andy. That was exactly what you said; "We never seem to read your critical analysis of HIS thoughts, of HIS problems, of the perils confronting HIM."
Go back and read your post #41 again. Alternatively - or perhaps, additionally - you might want to go grab a dictionary and check what the word "never" means. Heck, it was your words, my friend; not mine.
"On the basis of the above, no apology is due."
On the basis that you made the claim above - that NR is politically-biased because he never covers Brown or his trials and tribulations in his blogs - in the FULL KNOWLEDGE that what you were saying was utterly untrue (given that you regularly participate in NR's blogs on exactly that subject), yes, I would say that an apology to him is due.
As somebody said above - when you stand far enough to the Right, everything seems to be "on the Left". Including neutrality. Which is, I think, the problem that you (and several other) posters are having with Robinson's blogs. It's not that he's particularly biased. It's that you are, and that appears to be utterly clouding your perception.
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*138* TheBlameGame
You are correct in what you say about the UN Charter, but as the UK is now subject to more EU law than domestic law, it could be argued that the EU has precedence in terms of who our Government really is.
As the Lisbon Treaty kicks in this situation will become more obvious.
The Federal EU is on its way.
That's why people should really read the Treaty before commenting.
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Nick
Lets get this right, the Conservative Party are the only party who have tried to live up to their manifesto promise. Why aren't you asking the Labour government why they didn't done so. When Caroline Flint was Europe Minister she was asked had she read the treaty and the reply was no. This government's arrogance is disgusting.
Why aren't you covering the immigration story?
Why AM I BOTHERING TO WRITE THIS COMMENT - THIS COUNTRY IS FINISHED.
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137. braveSouter:
Are these the sort of values one acquires on the playing fields of Eton and membership of the thuggish Bullingdon Club?
bS - no-one can accuse you of being two-dimensional...
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Given a few responce to my post at #109 there seems to be a few people wondering why Britian need to be a real political force in the world.
Well london is one of the biggest financial centres in the world and we have an economy that depends on it (look at the recession). If we want to have some influence on things in the world we need to be able to make our points heard. Otherwise we are going to be on the recieving end of som global policies and changes that could dramatically effect this country.
If we have the weight of the EU with us then our argument is much stronger.
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157. Zydeco:
*138* TheBlameGame
You are correct in what you say about the UN Charter, but as the UK is now subject to more EU law than domestic law, it could be argued that the EU has precedence in terms of who our Government really is.
As the Lisbon Treaty kicks in this situation will become more obvious.
The Federal EU is on its way.
That's why people should really read the Treaty before commenting.
Z, surely the point is under the UN Charter, the PEOPLE have the say, not governments or regional organisations. It's not about government's rights it is about the right of the people to choose how they wish to be governed. I'd say the universal rights in the UN's Charter take precedence over the EU or our government.
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@ maidstonerichard, post #148
"Without wanting to get into an argument over the meaning of the word renege, the Lib Dems were whipped into abstaining on the vote on a referendum..."
Ok, I wondered if that might be the angle you were working from; you're talking about how the Lib Dems scuppered the proposed Tory push for a Referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, right?
The LibDems never promised to have a vote on the Lisbon Treaty. They promised a referendum on whether or not we should remain as part of the EU. To be honest, I can see where they were coming from, with this one; a Referendum simply on Lisbon really WOULD have been a waste of public money and resources, even if it HAD happened before the Czech vote.
Even if the vote was a resounding "No" to Lisbon, the EU Bureaucrats would simply have put forward another treaty, with a different name and a few clauses changed, and pretended that they had a mandate now because the treaty they were now proposing was not the same thing that the British Public had vetoed in their referendum. Which is what they did with the original EU Constitution when the Irish rejected it; which is how we ended up with the Lisbon Treaty to start with.
No, what we need - as I've maintained from the start of this discussion, and as the LibDems also seem to be pushing for - is a simple Yes or No vote on whether we want to be part of this new European super-state; with a large part of our political process being decided in Brussels and not Westminster.
Then, it wouldn't matter how many times the damn thing got re-written and re-presented for voting on; we'd know once and for all how the majority of us really feel about being part of the EU.
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#150
No.
Xenophobia, from the Greek, literally 'fear of foreigners' but now interpreted as a fear or dislike of foreigners.
I neither fear nor dislike foreigners.
It would be hoped that there was room for a range of opinions on Europe that allowed for disagreement without sides polarising into "you're all abject surrenderists to a new EUSSR" against "You're all a bunch of xenophobes"
Is there such room?
I believe that peoples are different, without having to value which peoples are better.
"All good people agree,
And all good people say,
All nice people, like Us, are We
And every one else is They:
But if you cross over the sea,
Instead of over the way,
You may end by (think of it!) looking on We
As only a sort of They..."
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Well its all down to Mr Cameron. I was all set to vote conservatives, im afraid if Mr Cameron goes back on his word, my vote will go elsewhere - probably UKIP or an independant!
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140. At 3:48pm on 03 Nov 2009, Jon_Cornwall wrote:
109. At 2:11pm on 03 Nov 2009, Colonicus42 wrote:
Face it , Britian needs the EU to be a real political force in the world.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why? I mean why do we even want to be any kind of political force in the world?
I would be quite happy to sit back a bit now, get out of world politics, stop sending our military all over the place, end foriegn aid, just generally mind our own buisness and stay out of all the rest of it.
=======================================
And get cut off from the politics in the EU.
Risk trade agreements failing.
Risk a backlash of worldwide derision as we keep our relative insane amount of wealth to ourselves instead of helping people in need around the world.
Pull out fo Iraq and Afghanistan and leave the countries in a horrendous mess which we have helped cause.
Look at the recession, it was global. We arn't just us anymore, we have a global comunity that we have to be part of or we will be left out in the cold without any hope of cooperation from anyone.
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145 JRPerry
"The point I was making was merely to drive the nail in harder on pdavies65's poorly thought-out post at 63"
Keep hammering.
It wouldn't have riled you if it didn't have an element of truth in it.
And of course, I was very explicit about the fact that xenophobia is endemic but not ubiquitous among eurosceptics (see 88). You really should read my posts more carefully dear boy.
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Nick Robinson:
I am feeling such sorrow for the Tories in
the United Kingdom regarding the recent Czech Court decisions...Regarding the Lisbon Treaty......
=Dennis Junior=
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#156
Who ARE you? Nick's brother?
And you talk of cherry picking. No-one could deny that Brown is in trouble but Nick then goes on to say he faces a press 'willing to put the worst gloss on most stories' And what is ths story? that Brown was snubbed.
But loe, here comes Nick to the rescue - "snub, what snub?" So the whole thrust of the articles was - the press have got it wrong about the snub, the truth is Brown and Obama stand shoulder to shoulder.
And that's the best example of Nick being highly critical of Brown?
Wierd how virtually every other sector of the press viewed it as a snub. Guess only Nick can see the light.
You saying that Nick's blogs about the Gadaffhi incidents were 'highly critical'???? They made Brown sound like he alone had shown that pesky Gadaffhi where to go. "Round one to Brown" as if they were the only two in a fight, with the rest of the world breathlessly hoping Brown could save them.
Please don't try and patronise with phrases like "my friend".
I'll cheerfully apologise for a badly worded earlier posting. I am sure you preview all yours at length just in case some pedant picks you up on something.
The blogs we've just reviewed show Nick pointing out Brown's achievements (and how the media have got it wrong about him) and Cameron's problems.
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If the Lisbon Treaty becomes law in the UK before the General Election there is, unfortunately, no way David Cameron could repeal it. The only choice he has is for Britain to work inside the existing structure, or act as a minor irritant on the fringes of the EU - much like the Czech Republic and about as effectively. It may sound anathema not only to the Conservatives but also UKIP and the other Eurosceptic parties, but the whole balance of the EU is changing. There are many politicians in Brussels and the national parliaments of member countries who are deeply concerned in the powers the EU, and more important the unelected, incompetent, European Commission is abrogating for itself. Before, Germany and France stitched it all up, mostly because Britain, which is the second largest contributor to the black hole of EU finances, was sulking. Now, with more member countries, the axis is changing. Poland, for example, has no real interest in preserving a status quo after France managed to strong-arm the EU into excluding new entrants from CAP funds while continuing to shovel European subsidies into its own laughably inefficient agricultural sector. If Britain under a Conservative government aligns with the new Eastern European members, there is every chance we can start reclaiming powers gaily signed away by Messrs Brown, Blair, and yes, let's admit it, John Major. But to enable him to do that, he has to find some way of convincing the die-hards who reach for the crucifix and the garlic at the mere sound of the word 'Europe'.
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Andrew @ 163
a nice answer ... and quite learned!
for a Taxidermist anyway
and I believe you too
I'm going to treat that as the start of something beautiful; as a kind of "Enlightened Things That Andy C555 Has Said" little seedling
I'm going out back now and I'm going to plant it! - see how big it grows
don't want to put a Hex on the process by getting too carried away but in my mind's eye it's already next summer and I'm sipping a campari soda out there on a warm sultry afternoon, gazing in peace and clear thinking progressive contentment at a wacking great, fully mature "Enlightened Andy" tree
lovely thought
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No146 Yellow,
Thank you for reproducing my contribution in full.
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jrperry - "I am neither scaremongering, not being xenophobic. It is mischevious of you in the extreme to suggest otherwise."
I disagree. The way you phrased your question implies a very real danger that those countries will force their age of consent on us through the EU. This is something which will not happen, but would upset many people if it did. Suggesting that it may happen, therefore, as a way of furthering your anti-EU stance is scaremongering almost by definition. As for xenephobia, it relates to your off-hand rejection of the countries' age of consent. The "they do things differntly to us, therfore they are wrong" sentiment comes through very strongly.
"And I'm not going to get into an argument with you about teenage pregnancy either, which is off-topic."
Not really, as it's the only social problem which is likely to arise from a lower age of consent. Therefore it seems as though the law hasn't done much harm to those countries.
"I note your (presumably made-up) remark about the US view of our age of consent. The majority of US states also set the age at 16, fourteen have it at 17 or older, four have it 15 or younger. Lesson - it pays to check your facts before you post!"
I said "many" Americans. I did not say "all" or "most" or whatever you happened to read. I have spoken to Americans, many of whom come from a State where consent is set at 18, and many of whom feel this way. Evidence enough? Perhaps not for you, but my point remains the same. People treat our values and traditions with as much suspicion as you seem to treat those of continental Europeans. Some countries find it bizarre that we aren't obliged to recycle certain things. Other countries find it bizarre that we don't execute our murderers.
Eyes need opening all round, as we are often prejudiced based on our upbringings and the values that we are taught to hold dear by our culture and surroundings. The comment made about pusinhg a donkey up a hill could equally be made about fox hunting, which many were keen to hold on to as part of our way of life.
All countries have quirks, cultural and legal, but through the lens of our nationality we are blinded to the strangeness of our own. I suppose that is what I should have said instead of my earlier post.
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As a youngster, this blogger voted to join the 'Common Market' all those years ago.
Being just an ordinary English bod, that is, totally disinterested in politics, I had no idea whatsoever that Ted Heath and his chums were being disingenuous as the the real scope of the European project, which has gradually been revealed to even the most disinterested English citizen as a full-blown political, economic and military power bloc.
I think it is too late for England to realistically exit Europe and prosper, our politicians here have done too much damage over the past few decades for that to be feasible - this ain't Norway by any means.
So David Cameron has his problems in facing at least four ways simultaneously, i.e. wriggling out of any referendum, keeping his europhobes and europhiles onside and renegotiating aspects of the Treaty.
As a self-proclaimed 'heir to Blair', I'm sure he'll slip and slide his way around the issues.
But what we English really need is a set of politicians who can put England's case quietly but firmly within the EU.
Unfortunately, no such grouping currently exists and we English will suffer for the lack of it as semi-detached members of the European Union during Camerons expected tenure.
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sagamix 152
""Trying to classify Eurosceptics as xenophobics"
not ALL of them, JR ... that would be stereotyping of the most reprehensible kind ... maybe around a third to a half?"
The last time I saw some sort of a poll useful to this discussion, which was quite a while ago, about 60pc of the population, once you took out the don't-knows, appeared to be broadly Eurosceptical. On your measure, therefore, that would be maybe 15pc to 25pc of the population as a whole, in round numbers, whose Europolitical motivations were primarily quite simply that they disliked foreigners. I don't know what circles you move around in, but for me, that's quite a big number. Too big to be true, indeed.
I think stronger motivations are likely to be a disliking of being run by an undemocratic and wasteful organisation and a disliking of that organisation being forced on us without a vote. As I wrote before, I think the great majority of Eurosceptics would be just as unhappy if the EU was based in Maida Vale as they are with it being based on the Continent.
So, until I see a counter-argument, I will be happy to contimue to call the Europhiles, in the context of their seeking to avoid debate with Eurosceptics by calling them xenophobic and so dismissing their arguments out of hand, lazy, sloppy, ignorant and dishonest!
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161. At 4:53pm on 03 Nov 2009, TheBlameGame wrote:
157. Zydeco:
*138* TheBlameGame
You are correct in what you say about the UN Charter, but as the UK is now subject to more EU law than domestic law, it could be argued that the EU has precedence in terms of who our Government really is.
As the Lisbon Treaty kicks in this situation will become more obvious.
Z, surely the point is under the UN Charter, the PEOPLE have the say, not governments or regional organisations. It's not about government's rights it is about the right of the people to choose how they wish to be governed. I'd say the universal rights in the UN's Charter take precedence over the EU or our government.
***************************
Like you I believe that is how it should be.
However as the Government of the day is the only medium (short of taking to the streets) by which we can choose how we are governed, we are in a cleft stick.
As they have proved by their actions, they won't give us a say so we are stuck with a fait-accompli.
Unless there is some way of appealing direct to the UN without going via Government, I'm not sure how we could get our case heard.
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oh no, not the old "Nick is biased" thing again
Mr R is neither "highly critical" of Brown (most of you people do that) nor "highly critical" of Cameron (cue me and the good guys) and that's exactly how it should be; he's the BBC Political Editor (!) not a Media Rep for either the Government or the Opposition
c'mon
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pdavies65 166
"It wouldn't have riled you if it didn't have an element of truth in it."
What an idiotic thing to say!
It riled me because it was untrue, had no basis in truth and because you knew it was untrue too!
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stuartbooth 164
"Well its all down to Mr Cameron. I was all set to vote conservatives, im afraid if Mr Cameron goes back on his word, my vote will go elsewhere - probably UKIP or an independant!"
Well, I have at least a little sympathy for that view. Unfortunately, the electoral calculus works out as (albeit in tabloid terms) "Vote UKIP, Get Labour".
So I am holding back on giving UKIP my vote until UKIP themselves can convince me that Labour winning the General Election represents the best option for the country.
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Bill Cash has made it clear that war will erupt in the Tory Party if the Bullingdon Kid betrays the lunatic Euroscaptic wing of the party.It has seemed obvious to many that as soon as a real decision had to be made about the well being of the British people in relation to the EU project the Tories would resume stabbing each other in the back. Do they ever learn?
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Another Europe/Conservative post on a day when nearly 40 Bn worth of banking bail out was announced?
Brilliant...
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172 Inspired by TA6
You have cherry-picked my post to try to give the impression that I am xenophobic, when I am not. There was nothing pejorative in my reference to ages of consent elsewhere in Europe, nor did I use any phrasing to suggest that their ages of consent would be "forced" on us. Those were your words, not mine.
Therefore, your argument is lazy, sloppy and dishonest.
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No173 John Constable,
John your memory is clearly fading, it happens to us all.No one was given the chance to vote when the Tories took us into the EEC. A few years later a Labour Government held a referendum concerning continuing membership, there was a large majority in favour of staying in.
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Is it the case that Tony Blair knew long ago that he wanted to be President of the EU Council? I think so, because I knew.
Did he want to change religion at an opportune moment?
Did he welch on the promise of a referendum on Lisbon Treaty? Yes he did. Knitting this little lot together must mean that he welched because he believed that the referendum vote would go against the treaty. If that happened... bang goes his chances of President. So he did this for himself not his country. Is that illegal? Is it impeachable?
Believe me, Blair does nothing without planning carefully, very carefully.
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178. At 5:47pm on 03 Nov 2009, jrperry wrote:
stuartbooth 164
"Well its all down to Mr Cameron. I was all set to vote conservatives, im afraid if Mr Cameron goes back on his word, my vote will go elsewhere - probably UKIP or an independant!"
Well, I have at least a little sympathy for that view. Unfortunately, the electoral calculus works out as (albeit in tabloid terms) "Vote UKIP, Get Labour........
**********************
Scary that. Vote Tory get New Labour Mk11.
Vote anyone else and keep the lot we've got now.
A good case for PR if ever there was one.
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jr @ 174
well to be fair you've got the following 4 categories; prefix Euro in each case
(1) philes
ardent supporters of further European integration
(2) realists
no great love for Europe but recognise the importance of staying in and playing an active, constructive role in its development
(3) sceptics
a dislike for Europe and minded to act as a drag on all non economic parts of the project but recognise the importance of staying in
(4) phobes
hate Europe and want to pull out in order to pursue a vision of an independent Island State ... a kind of floating Bulldog, if you like
and the xenophobes?
almost all in (4)
how many?
hard to say since xenophobia is not something that people tend to own up to
pollster: "Excuse me sir, are you a xenophobe?"
joe: "A what, mate?"
pollster: "You know, do you fear and dislike foreigners?"
joe: (folding away his BNP Weekly) "Er no, course not."
so tricky, for sure
but I'd say there's a lot
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braveSouter @ 182
I stand corrected - the EU vote I participated in would have been the Labour Government Referendum - the Labour Party obviously think that one referendum on this subject is quite enough!
I find myself glancing rather enviously at the Scots because they enjoy a (SNP) Government that is unambiguous about being in and supporting the Europe Union.
Meanwhile we English are likely to soon endue a Tory adminstration whose current EU stance includes political positions such as 'the Latvian SS really were'nt that bad'.
Churchill must be spinning in his grave.
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So 'call me' Dave's promises are made of the same stuff as Gordon Brown's!
It proves one thing. The EU treaty/constitution is one heck of a lot more than the simple 'tidying-up' exercise Brown justified not holding a referendum for!
We’ve been told probably the biggest lie since the Nazis told the Jews they were simply being resettled in family camps!
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No107jrperry.
Seems to think that we have an elected parliament.I did not realise that contributors to this forum could be so politically backward.
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175. Zydeco
Yes, it's all pretty much a done deal... but if someone did want to mount a legal challenge I don't think the UN Charter would be binding. Didn't work for the Iraq invasion.
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Firstly, most of the public haven't got a clue what the Lisbon treaty is. Why hasn't anybody told us?
Secondly, nothing is irrevocable.
Personally I do not like the idea of a Federal Super-State Europe with a President (unelected). Why is it that so much of politics involves POWER rather than what is actually good for the people?
Some of these politicians get so hung up on power it is destructive.
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#175. Zydeco wrote
'Like you I believe that is how it should be.
However as the Government of the day is the only medium (short of taking to the streets) by which we can choose how we are governed, we are in a cleft stick.
As they have proved by their actions, they won't give us a say so we are stuck with a fait-accompli.
Unless there is some way of appealing direct to the UN without going via Government, I'm not sure how we could get our case heard. '
You could try the European Court of Human Rights to enforce your rights under the UN treaty.
The UK goverment would have to abide by the ECHR ruling according to EU treaties.
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braveSouter 188
"jrperry seems to think that we have an elected parliament.I did not realise that contributors to this forum could be so politically backward."
If you are referring to the Glenrothes by-election scandal, then I defer to your greater knowledge and wisdom.
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Nick please remind the country that it is this disgraceful, deceitful, disingenuous government that has reneged on its promise to hold a referundum.
Any referendum now would surely be pointless.
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Loss of democracy? If you’re really worried about that, stop whingeing about straight bananas and start by reversing what Thatcher and the Friedmanites did in the 80s. They created a global village of free trade, borderless financial markets, handed massive power to unelected bankers and mega-corporations, and fatally weakened local government. Positively Hitlerian/Stalinist. Actually, that’s unfair – Hitler and Stalin were enemies of international capital.
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I find the Tory Euro haters lover of referendum(a) amazing. Referendum are often used by the electorate to give an unpopular government of the day a good kicking.
So will a future Conservative government resign if they lose any referendum on Europe?
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170. At 5:22pm on 03 Nov 2009, saggyminx wrote:...
....the usual piece of off-topic CTP ClapTraP....
claptrapn. Pretentious, insincere, or empty language
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No194 Southams,
You make some excellent points.What do you think is the most undemocratic,a free association of nations whose policies are determined by their elected leaders, or a situation in which the citizens of a country are denied the right to choose their own Head of State?
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We need more referenda. A certain amount of direct democracy wouldn't hurt us at all.
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Great... We have an un electe prime minister, mp's with sticky fingers in the cookie jar, promises of a referendum on the eu, never upheld, and above all the wishes of the electorate totally ignored by those elected to represent our wishes...
ok, if we steal, we go to court and maybe prison, MP's only have to pay it back.. makes a mockery of law does it not?
ok, if we commit treason, then off with his head, or the tower, still law never repealled.
Our gold sold by our un elected pm, cheaply, and now when we need it most... all gone...
so, broken promises over europe and any referendum, country sold out to the eu, banks controlled by the eu, jobs lost to the eu, something my grandfather fought in WW2, to keep our country free.
Just for the record, i am born and bred ENGLISH, i am not or ever will be European, or a member of the EU.
Those who wish to be european, do the decent thing, catch the next flight out!
Those who want to be British, e.g. Scottish, Welsh, English, or Irish
vote at the next general election for anyone but the three main parties
have a hung parliament, and give the lying thieving treacherous toads a swift kick where it hurts most.
Above all DEMAND a referendum on Europe membership at you door... lets get democracy back into our country, let us the voter make our voices heard.
God save our Queen, and protect our Country, GREAT BRITAIN.
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David Cameron loves this country. Gordon Brown does not.
If there is one thing Brown can do before he hands over power to David Cameron is to liaise with him and do from this day forward that which will be in the very best interests of this country so that the handover can be as un-traumatic as possible for David Cameron.
After all it is the mother of all messes Brown and Blair have caused to this country, it is the very least he can do, and may be he can earn a little - I said a little - respect back from the public in so doing.
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CTP @ 196
:-(
hey what about my other one though? ... at 185 ... you know, where I summarise the four main approaches to Europe and also deal with the xenophobia point
don't you like that one, either?
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Than heavens for this we have at long last protection from the crackpots of Westminster.
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No199 Andy Little,
Can you let me know when we last elected a Prime Minister in the UK, and when such an amazing event occurred?
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Andy Little @ 199
"I am born and bred ENGLISH"
I bet you are, Andy!
so am I as it happens ... and I have FIVE grandfathers who fought for this country
yet I'm cool with the Lisbon Treaty
takes all sorts, doesn't it?
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201#
Trust you Saga, you had to get your own online stalker before the rest of us.... talk about one-upmanship..... :-D
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It looks like Gordon Brown has got his way - there doesn't appear to be much he can do about. Great stuff Gordy ! So what happens now ?
The ultimate goal of the EEC/EC/EU always has been a single European Super State. I have a feeling that Cameron will resist any further "progress" towards that goal when he gets his chance.
Interesting that Gordon Brown has declared that he is an "X-Factor" fan. I find it strange that this voterphobic PM should be so interested in a programme where the public vote on what happens. It says it all really, when wannabe pop stars are afforded a more democratic process than the electorate about the EU or Gordy himself for that matter.
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No 197
"What do you think is the most undemocratic, a free association of nations whose policies are determined by their elected leaders, or a situation in which the citizens of a country are denied the right to choose their own Head of State?"
Well, the ‘free association of nations’ seems to have given up much of the power they had to run their own economies (and thereby to control social policy). I don’t remember being asked to vote on whether this was a good idea.
As for the 'situation in which the citizens of a country are denied the right to choose their own Head of State’, this would be where?
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No199 Andy Little.
Andy, it is a worthy aim to 'get democracy back into our country' Would you prefer a form of Direct Democracy, or an amended form of the partial representational system that we currently endure?Many political scientists take the view that the UK system of parliamentary democracy, and the nature of its constitution is little more than a sham.Do you think reform should start at the top?
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fs @ 205
perils of the "Job" ... hey better not be YOU!
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200 FLAMETHROWER
Help.
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206. At 7:46pm on 03 Nov 2009, StrictlyPickled wrote:
It looks like Gordon Brown has got his way - there doesn't appear to be much he can do about. Great stuff Gordy ! So what happens now ?
The ultimate goal of the EEC/EC/EU always has been a single European Super State. I have a feeling that Cameron will resist any further "progress" towards that goal when he gets his chance.
***********************
Cameron may resist further 'progress' but it won't do him any good.
The EU is in charge now.
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121. At 2:47pm on 03 Nov 2009, weejonnie wrote:
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SP @ 206
"The ultimate goal of the EEC/EC/EU always has been a single European Super State"
not in the sense of the sublimation of the Nation States; the end goal isn't a United States of Europe on the USA model - far from it
all we're talking about is co-operating on things that make sense to co-operate on, harmonising things which should be harmonised, and pooling things which should be pooled
it's about power residing at the most appropriate level depending on the area concerned; thus foreign, defence, monetary policy at European level - fiscal policy, health, education, transport etc at National level - emptying the bins, town planning, library maintenance etc at Local level
we will retain our open multi cultural society and all the little quirks (good and bad) which make this country the place we know and love and are proud to call home
it's the way to go
but yes, it's important that people agree so let's have a Referendum a couple of years from now ... not on some little Treaty or other, but on this whole thing I'm describing ... on It
the question could be:
Preamble as above ... "Do You Want It?" ... YES or NO
no brainer for me
yes please monsieur!
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JRPerry 177
Whoa! Let's pause a moment and take stock.
My initial assertion was that xenophobia is rife among the strongly Euro-sceptic camp. Fine to disagree, but it is not a particularly novel or outrageous suggestion. Your response was to call me or my opinions, and I quote:
a twit, lazy, sloppy, dishonest, ignorant, stupid, idiotic ...
What triggered this outpouring of bile? You maintain that you reacted so strongly because my assertion was 'baseless'. I maintain that you reacted so strongly because I had touched a nerve.
I'm not Freud, but I know who's got the more convincing case here.
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What does this say about Del Boy Cameron?
At least there was some Wriggle room in the Manifesto pledge on the Constitutional Treaty as there were limited changes to the Lisbon Treaty.
BUT
How do square this;
"Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM, a Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that emerges from these negotiations"
With todays complete and utter CAPITULATION!!!!
So what's the Analysis.
1 Del Boy fibs?
2 Del Boy has appaling Judgement/Understanding of Foreign Policy?
3 Del Boy will say anything that he feels people want to hear?
4 All of the above?
Likely activity today at Tory Central office (apart from the dithering and bottling that is);
"Will someone get me an outside line to Belize for Gods sake, I need to speak to the real Party leader to find out what our Policy is"
or Del Boy could send Hague and while he was there he could "Ask Him" THE question:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8080379.stm
Lest we forget!!!
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209#
I promise you mate, its not me. I couldnt get the new username I was looking for, the profanity filter was a tad hypersensitive.
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Sorry that I have not read all the contirbutions to this post so I'm not sure whether anyone has pointed out that Cameron has an opportunity to reopen the Lisbon Treaty terms because the promises made to the Irish to get them to vote Yes must be written into the preamble to the next EU treaty for them to take effect.
The next treaty is expected to be the Croatian accession treaty and this needs the approval of all member states. The addition of the Irish safeguards in the treaty will therefore provide the opportunity for Cameron to renegotiate the Lisbon Treaty.
If the other states don't accept that the additional safeguard provisions for Ireland opens up the opportunity to renegotiate the terms of the treaty in a wider sense, then clearly Croatia will never join and the Irish won't get their safeguards. Cameron should insist that the price of the Irish safeguards should be renegotiating the terms of the treaty AND a permanent reduction in the size of the net UK contribution to match that of France's contribution which is far less than our net contribution.
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For all the labour apologists who keep bleating about the euro-sceptics being out of touch it is worth remembering that it was labour who finished behind UKIP in tne euro elections. I am sure the vast majority of the UK electorate are for being part of Europe but would only like to see a bit more democracy from Brussels and not have a goverment like Browns lot kow towing to every whim of brussels. It is through Labours complete contempt for the electorate (a goverment who went into Iraq to help its people have a vote but deny their own people a vote) that we now have a nation that is very much split on the idea of europe.
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I have to say, some ears back, I wondered whether Brown backed away from an election when he succeeded Blair as the New Labour Project was concerned about the loss of power - which could have triggered a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
Maybe Brown bottled it for both personal and policy reasons?
It's rediculous to suggest that somebody who is anti the Lisbon Treaty is "anti-European". We have no way of knowing how many of the population of France, Germany, Italy, Spain etc etc welcome the shift of power to Brussels.
Why? Because the "People" have not been allowed a direct voice.
Why? Because the "People" in France and Netherlands were given such a voice on the "Constitutional Treaty" - and they got the answer wrong...
I am strongly pro-Europe. But very strongly anti the concentration of decision making into the hands of politicians, with very limited input from the voting population.
The aspects of this Treaty I really don't like are those that appear to make the EU a "self-ratcheting" structure, so laws and regulations can in future be decided within the EU with minimal need for any significant input from the electorates across a continent (including off-shore islands like the UK, Ireland, Malta, Cyprus...) So if the island nations are rather like Hawaii in relation to the US heartland, don't forget that Sweden and Finland are like Alaska - separated from the mainland USA by another nation. In North America - that would be Canada in between. In Europe it's Russia.
Every voter across the USA gets a chance to elect a President. (Of course, the President of the EU Council is not a real President, just the Chairman of a bunch of Local Leaders. Some of those leaders will be Presidents, some as in Germany and the UK, people a step down the ladder and not heads of state.)
The only reason for a referendum would be to ask the UK electorate: "Were you misled, by being denied a direct voice before the Lisbon Treaty was signed into force by your Government?".
I don't want to sever ties with the EU. But it's nonsensical to say that we risk more than the others if the UK withdrew. There would be a big hole in the financial income, for a start. And the UK balance of trade with the EU is massive. Which trading partner would want to give up on involvement with a nation that imports massively from them more than it exports to them?
Just can't understand why a "Non Nation" will be spending a fortune on diplomatic / foreign office positions around the world. I mean, if the local EU "embassy" expressed some view in a previous French colony, but the French decided that their interests were being questioned, does anybody believe the French wouldn't "go in" unilaterally to try and "resolve things"?
That probably means I don't believe we will have a Federal Europe very soon. But it also raises the question of why we need an expensive layer of a "pretend nation" spending our cash on "pretend embassies".
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205. At 7:35pm on 03 Nov 2009, Fubar_S wrote:
.... i wouldn't say I was a stalker, but saggy stands out to the casual reader by being garrulous ....
fubarabbr. Irreparably damaged or bungled
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By the way, I do think it's important to understand how the Tories will try and allow an expression of wish from the UK electorate about Europe.
Just as I wonder how the UK electorate have been given a choice about whether we should pump another 35-40 Billion into failed banks.
It's a nonsense for Darling to talk about a more "competitive" retail banking system, after Brown encouraged Lloyds to acquire HBoS - then waived normal competition rules...
How does that work? We are promised some minnows to be spun off from RBS and Lloyds Group, as though they will have the clout of the state-sponsored banks.
It's sick.
The failed banks should have been placed into "constructive administration" - whereby the objective would be to allow them to re-emerge as living organisms once the dead stuff had been expunged. (That's what happened, in effect with Northern Rock for a while, until Brown and Darling decided to pour more money in...)
Lloyds was a decent bank. Sullied because Brown and an idiot chairman cut a totally un-ethical deal to massively reduce high-street competition by forcing through a deal with HBoS before due diligence was even scratched at. To scrape off a few branches here and there will not increase the competition.
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219. At 8:44pm on 03 Nov 2009, fairlyopenmind wrote:
Very well put.
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Where are the jobs in the EU advertised?
Or do you have to be a relative of existing employee - or called Kinnock/Mandelson?
I'd just love a seat on the gravy train and drool over those gold plated pensions in lovely Euros.
Must admit I don't look as youthful as Milliband
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220#
"fubar: abbr. Irreparably damaged or bungled"
LOL... yeah that sounds like me. Thats why I chose it. :o)
You should have seen the nom de guerre I tried to choose instead...
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19. sircomespect
Surely another thing is clear from these events, that a cast iron guarantee from Mr Cameron is worth no more than one form any other politician.
Might cause one to consider other areas where he might decide to not deliver on his promises.
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Well there is life in the old apathetic voter yet!
We elect MP's, then somewhere in the hash of government.. out pops a pm...
PM Ted Heath, knew the referendum on the common market was a nice thing, but did not tell us about the rest attached.. by the way he got a nice shiny new boat soon after! make thought that what you will...
so... PM Thatcher, bashed a few with a handbag, growled at europe, but did not give us a referendum on something that would change our lives and that of our children. Gave us a war about oil, disguised as a fight over the ownership of the Falkland Isles...
PM John Major, sold us out signed the maastricht treaty.. the rot set in..
PM Tony B-Liar... signed us a bit further down the pan, nice presidents job if you read the news..
PM gorden "GOLDSOLD" brown, sells a bit more of the crockery...
Many MP's caught out on the fiddle.. and we have the brass nerve to criticise other nations on CORRUPTION ??
I noted a few comments on my earlier blog.. nice to see you all awake and paying attention.. now... find out how much we as tax payers pay into the EU... Then find out how much we benefit from it...
simple maths, we are in deficit because we pay to much (CAP) for example
whilst our farmers and fishermen fail with little or no support and in fact in the fishing industry they loose big time! now think of the treaty and how it is destroying working mens lives and that of their families no, not the lisbon treaty, the ones before.. and we are about to loose more because of the lisbon treaty.. subtle phrases, big effects.
Many have fought, generations of grandfathers rightly pointed out in a blog reply, to keep this country free, it is not now, sold out by a greedy few.. to a corrupt many...
Europe accounts, not signed off in 14 years, and when a lady accountant who spotted the corruption was honest enough to refuse to sign the accounts off she was sacked by the commisioner... NEIL KINNOCK.. he has been on the gravy train for years...oopps Labour ? PM ?
and you Europhiles want us to sign up to this ?
UKIP get my vote every time... we can trade with the EU, anytime
BUT I WILL NOT BE GOVERNED BY THEM hell will freeze over first!
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Having been early in posting my 1st comment, I've had the chance to read the evolution of this blog.
Let me make one further point, Cameron has, so far never been in a position to decide on a referendum. Whatever words have been accredited to him, he has remained steadfast.
Brown is another kettle of fish. He and Blair promised us a referendum on joining the EU. Blair crept away to make multi-£Ms leaving Brown to hold "the baby". The latter scuttled off and signed the treaty by ratification of the Lisbon Treaty and abjectly failed to make any progress on the C.A.P. or regaining our financial commitment to the EU.
This latter act is the reprehensible one. If I do nothing else, I will not vote for Labour.
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Looks as if the Lisbon Treaty will be ratified any day now. Whilst it is criminal that we have not had the referendum promised by NuLabour at the last election, it is time to move on. It is pointless the Tories trying to revive the issue once it has passed into European Law and I think that Mr Cameron has always realised this. The referendum pledge was obviously only realistic whilst there was a chance to stop ratification. Whilst it will be interesting to see how the Tories decide to propose to pursue our interests in Europe, it is hardy the most pressing issue. I am sure that my fellow bloggers can list at least six more deserving causes for urgent attention post the election whoever wins it. The busted economy being top of the list!
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Will someone remind the politicians that
The Bill of Rights and the Magna Cata cannot be overturned there were given to the british people in perpetuity
The two documents FORBID and British Government or the Royalty of handing over ANY power to a foreign power (except by defeat in battle)
Therefor no mattter what anyone says, joining the EU and handing over ANY POWERS what-so-ever, breaks these pre-eminent constitutional laws
By breaking these laws, we the people, can go to the parliament and remove the politicians from "their place of residence"
Politicians can argue all they like (and yes they can make any diversion or excuse to renaigue on this) but they have broken fundamental British Constitutional Law.
And B'liar / Brown have lied three times about their willingnees (er plans) to hold a referendum (and it was only upon this that they were voted into power - they lied, lied lied and if the Conservatives do not commit to restitution of British control of it's own affairs then I will be voting for a hung parliament.
Look to the news for the procession to parliament comming soon.
The EU was achieved by deceipt and deviation, do we want to be controlled / dominated by their devious scams ... I think not.
I have spent half of the last 15 years working in central Europe and lack of openness and fear of Government has to be seen to beleived.
Only the British and Americans can understand what it means to NOT BE AFRAID of their Government - but be aware that the EU governmet will want to impose the same draconian rules and laws upon the British over time.
The worst impositioon of all will be Nepolianic Laws and Justice, where you are assumed to be GUILTY until YOU prove your innocense - many innocent people are routinely locked up for upto 3 years before their case goes to court.
This would mean the destruction of your business, work, family, life.
WE must make the Conservatives understand that EU law and regulation is not acceptable in the UK, not now or at ANY TIME in the future (even by way of their creeping / stealth changes)
Cameron must and can legally give us our Referendum, if not, the British People can remove the Politicians from "Power" and we take back the ability to control our own affairs.
I have no problem working with or trading with Europeans but their way of life is NOT the British way of life.
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Nick - Good summary of today's events on Radio4 World tonight - However, reading between the lines - No rift in the Tory party over Europe suggests deals are being made. If the Tory party are willing to sell their principles on Europe so as to avoid conflict on the way into the next election - what will the future cost be to us ?
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First off I don't remember Camerons promise being
"you have a cast iron gaurentee we'll have a referendum, unless it's ratified first, which it probably will be, in which case we won't"
Anyone else remember that?
Now if he is the next PM how will we know if a promise is conditional or not? His promises seem to become condidtional when he wants them to, or when political necessarty demands it.
And this is hardly the first one he's broke is it? Remember "we'll leave the euro party we're now in within 100 days" well that was quietly dumped and became about 700 days.
Cameron has spent the last few years saying what he won't do, and what he would like "a better britan" (hardly specific or measurable is it? and not somthing anyone can disagree with either) but when it's come to promises he's actually made, he hasn't kept one. So people had better start waking up to the fact that all the stuff he's said he'll do when in power, it'll all be dropped and his true tory face revealed the moment you vote him in, and the consequences to this country will be a lot worse than 10 years of mismanagement, the house may be delapidated, but it's still standing, by the time Daves done, they'll be nothing left!
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Just watched the BBC News tonight. I'm actually not against the EU Treaty as such, but could not believe how biased the BBC were about the issue of a referendum! Surely a news article on the EU Treaty should also question why our government should be held to account for refusing us to express our choice, rather than using it to just to have a pop at the conservatives. We can't blame a party who has not been in power for 12 years. How can we have a referendum if the treaty has already been agreed? When Cameron announced his guarantee of a referendum, he was expecting an imminment election. It's not up to the BBC to make an opinion about a policy - you should be ashamed of yourselves.
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Nick, please allow me to understand how the Conservative Party could say anything else following todays tragic announcement?
The real truth of today is that Labour have failed once again to give the British public what they want, I feel your focus should not have been unfairly directed at the Conservatives, but at the real culprits, this disgraceful labour government...roll on the general election so the British public can determine their future and oust this shambles!
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Why is everyone having a go at Cameron today?
The pressure should be on Brown & Co for a blatant breach of a clear manifesto commitment.
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I am at a loss as to what you think cameron can do about this .
A) he isnt in power yet and once the treaty is signed thats it.
B) promising to have a referendum about something that we couldnt change even if we did would be a sign of madness.
If people have any gripe there is only one set of people to blame
Foreign Secretary David Miliband said: "So much for David Cameron's cast-iron guarantee to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
We had a cast iron guarentee from Labour about having a referendum , they lied to us and have forced it through un democratically. Guess who will benefit from this ???? yes you got it the labour party.
now if you want a news story how about chasing the expenses people to see when they will be righting their checques and why jacqui smith seems to be not being treat the same as the others, is it because shes a woman ??? or is there a better reason ??? it does seem strange that some pay back and others dont for exactly the same offence.
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I notice that Mr Cameron has been highly critisized for his comments regarding the EU - it rather seems that he was between a rock and a hard place, no matter what comments he made.
As Mr Brown seems somewhat silent on the issue - and his Party appears to be making Political capital out of this - without saying what THEY would do - (APART FROM BORROWING YET MORE BILLIONS)- WHICH IS WHAT THE PUNDITS OUGHT TO BE DISCUSSING!
Mr Brown Has promised MANY policies - which he hasn't kept to - but the Media Pundits seem to be more interested in Cameron's comments!
J. Harvey.
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Having just watched the bbc news, I am once again astounded by the left wing bias on the reporting - whatever happened to impartiality Mr Robinson?
Your lengthy 'rebuke' of the Tory track record on Europe merely shows the reality of a government/opposition party that genuinely stands for the best interests of its people - some aspects of 'Europe' are beneficial to us, others are not.
This contrasts sharply with the spineless attitude of our current tragic excuse for a government, whose members have only their own personal interests at heart, and are now worming their way onto European political footladder in anticipation of being (oh so rightly) kicked out of power within the next six months.
Is impartial reporting now a think of the past?
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#133
Ever heard of sarcasm???????
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229 Paul Anderson wrote:
"This would mean the destruction of your business, work, family, life."
- - - - - -
You've got me worried now. How exactly will the EU destroy my family? And my (gulp) life?
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Well, well, well,
It appears there are plenty of likeminded folk that are as fed up with the current regime as I am.
The BBC should at least try to defend its shocking bias towards labour tonight in light of the revelations that (almost) everyone in the country seems to know what the crack is other than a certain Mr. Robinson!
The only reason Mr Brown (he is not deserving of the title Prime Minister as he an unelected simpleton) didn't give the british people the referendum he promised is because he knows it would be NO, his fear of the sensible british public also made him renege on a general election a while back because he knows he wouldn't have stood a chance!
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The conservatives believe that if the European president is a nonentity it will be easier for them to reform the EU.This is doubtful.A weakened centre is resistant to change which means that power will devolve back to the Franco-German axis who will mobilize a coalition against British demands.
If Britain intends to remain in Europe, we should support a man with a political identity like Mr.Blair.A Blair-Cameron alliance could extend British influence and be a compensation for the undue influence of German industry and French agriculture on EU policy.
If on the other hand we wish to leave Europe we should make our dispositions accordingly instead of this wasteful half in and half out policy which is the current stance of the conservative party.
You don`t need to like people to use them, or to sentimentalize power which is something elites rarely do and certainly not Mr.Blair or Mr.Cameron.The state is an instrument and should be used in pursuit of British interests and not be obscured by ideology which is just the instinct of the herd.
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#219
"the question of why we need an expensive layer of a 'pretend nation' spending our cash (...)"
This is, of course, a question which exercises the minds of many Scots, who would love to cut out the middle man but find themselves caught up in the pretend nation that is the UK, never having had a chance to vote on the matter in a referendum, whereas there was a referendum on UK membership of the EEC.
Tories in England said that they objected to the EU as reformed by the Lisbon Treaty and that they would hold a referendum on that, but it does not happen (and never was going to happen). Many of you say that you couldn't care tuppence whether Scotland leaves the UK as reformed by the Scotland Act 1998, and some of you say you wish it would, but the anglo-unionist parties seek to prevent a referendum on that subject too.
Some things never change in Blighty. You chaps in England's green but bankrupt land, who mostly do not know the first thing about the Lisbon Treaty, will just go on whingeing about Europe as before and straining every sinew to keep the Scots in what you evidently consider to be their proper place: under your thumb, pumping oil revenues into your disastrously mismanaged economy.
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Milliband remonstrates with the compromised Cameron's so called broken promise on a referendum.He does so as a senior member of a Government that miserably failed to keep its promise that a similar referendum would be held under its auspices.This is a man who professes to be a decent person with integrity and standards and who might even aspire to the dizzy heights of Foreign Minister for Europe. It really is apalling that politicians today are required to be so duplicitous and dishonest in order to make a successful career of politics.
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David Cameron made it clear there would be a referendum if the treaty had not yet been ratified by the time he came to office (as expected after the next election). The fact that the Czechs have now caved in means the Constitutional Treaty is now binding in law.
The fact that this type of pernicious of legislation can't be undone by a future government highlights the scandal of Brown signing the treaty without the promised referendum.
Frankly, it amounts to treason.
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Ref: 239. At 11:02pm on 03 Nov 2009, pdavies65 wrote
"This would mean the destruction of your business, work, family, life."
- - - - - -
You've got me worried now. How exactly will the EU destroy my family? And my (gulp) life?
Hi- I have lived in several countries within Europe, for long period of time working and slowely you get to understand how they think and fear their covernments.
They live under the nepoleonic laws. We in Britain would not tolerate them - but over time people forget and the people of the UK will forget the freedoms GURANTEED by OUR laws.
In many parts of Europe people genuinely Fear the STATE and the state can do as it pleases - real politics (as we know it) where parliament answers to the people simply does NOT EXIST.
I have found it nearly imposible to discuss politics (as we do) just in case SOME ONE IS LISTENING - it is all pervasive (This is common in Europe and other places like China and Some parts of Russia for example.
After a while the paranoia kills the spirit and independence of thought and eventually they sercome to it.
Look at brish politics since Labour can to power - slowly but very surely our free spirit has been destroyed by political ploys (like immigration - its primary purpose) that creates diversion and dis-ease.
Anyone of my age will remember the 1960's 70' 80 as happy free-spirited times - slowely they have been killed by "political correctness" and the like.
The younger generation don't know what these times were like - really excellent and fun ... now they are gone ... to get us used to the EU way of life.
So the parasitic elite have the power and wealth (remote from us) while we pay for it and laws and regulations are imposed on us from far away.
I could go one but enough ...
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"that Cameron and Hague have "sold out", and put their desire for power before their principles."
---------------------------------------
care to use your insider briefings nick, to inform us all of how labour's anti european wing are feeling about this?
what about how labour's anti european MPs feel about have an election pledge to hold a referendum, then changing the name to treaty and denying the people a say?
perhaps over the next few days we could see some of your blogs on gordon brown's answers to those questions about the vetoes he personally has given up, and what 80 odd, points of law that europe now control instead of westminster, and how they will affect us
as a member of the public who does try to take an interest, i am only being told that this treaty will "streamline" europe.
not a single mention that it involves an unelected president of europe
nothing about a non socialist government be in power in westminster, and how this would cause major conflict with a socialist president of europe
but i guess if i want open/real debate i should go look elsewhere in blogworld, and not on the bbc website.
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hitler's ideals were to dictate the european continent in his image, where as the european community today, is dictating the european community in the image of whoever is leading it and pulling the strings!
(allow me some leaway on the analogy please)
hitler didnt give people a say in how he ruled europe
european union isnt giving the people a say in how they are governed
sorry to say it, but now all is well, what happens when there is a major spat (between a socialist european president enforcing rules etc) and a right wing government who must face their people to say: sorry we have been slapped down by europe and cannot do XXXX
will the right wing government just sit and take it, and be voted out of office in their next general election?
i dont think they will.
first we will have huge fines imposed on the people of the country failing to abide by euro laws
next we will have a trade embargo and/or sanctions against the country as it refuses to put its people in hardship by paying the huge fines
then we will have the country removing itself from the european union
if that fails, we could literally have a european war on our hands!
it doesnt take much for alliances between big european countries to be struck up, and the same goes for opposition to europe.
this whole issue can easily be very dangerous!
id give it around 5 years, before a country pulls out altogether or god forbid, declares war on another.
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Presumably Mandelson can now get rid of Brown -Brown having served his purpose in stalling until the treaty was ratified!
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Nick, now that the Lisbon Treaty/constitution has been ratified by everyone, will you go and ask Mr Brown if he is breathing a sigh of relief that he got through without having the referendum that his party promised at the last election? Also, why not ask him what lessons in democracy he has transferred from that exercise to his views on Mr Karzai's recent but somewhat misnamed "demoratic victory" in Afghanistan. Never mind Mr Cameron, who has at least tried to do the right thing, focus on the man in Downing Street who has once again bottled it when it comes to facing an electorate.
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231#
Riiiiight.... so Labour's meaningless manifesto commitment in 2005 wasnt equally as hollow then because when Gordon signed, it wasnt the same document that they'd made the commitment on, therefore they didnt have to honour it?
Soon showing his true colours as well then?
Glass houses and stones, little troll....
Talking crap and being two faced cuts both ways.
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#215 Eatonrifle,
Very well put. Running in the style of colonial masters places like Belize comes natural to rightwing British nationalists and a significant number of money worshipping Tories (like Tory Deputy Chairman Lord Ashcroft) because they don't understand the concept of a common humanity or even the basics of the Christian religion (love your neighbour like yourself). It is time to expose the shallowness of Tory propaganda where the love of money easily overpowers the love for fellow human beings:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/01/lord-ashcroft-belize-scrutiny
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Talk about Parliament being in a mess - I have been in a hell of a mess trying to log in to this site. Anyone else have trouble with it?
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OMG how can anybody take seriously 231. Laughing Devil?
He/she cannot spell has appalling grammar and expects us to understand them!
Typical Labour/socialist if you don't mind my saying.
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I cannot believe that what was supposed to be a Common Market, has become what will be the equivelent to the old Roman Empire once Turkey joins. All we need is for a President who wants to introduce a One World religion after causing mahem across the world to fullfil the role of the Antichrist. Funny, I can picture Tony Blair with horns.
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almost all of my friends are decent types but I do have the one who's a Conservative supporter (we're friends because we pretty much HAVE to meet up every month or so ... he's my barber) and this guy, a pretty committed clown, is having problems with Cameron and Europe - sure, he wants to see the back of this Labour government ... a "right old mob" he calls them ... but the issue of Britain and the EU is, for him, bigger than party politics; he takes the view that the drift towards a Federal Europe (his words) is deeply undemocratic and is symptomatic of a growing gap between the liberal elite and what he calls "ordinary people" - it's excellent getting this sort of conversation while you're having a haircut, isn't it? ... so much better than "Have you been on your holidays yet?" ... which is why I stick with him - anyway, last time I went (just yesterday) the news about Cameron welshing on his Referendum promise had just broke and my barber friend was absolutely spitting - so much so that he couldn't be trusted around my locks and we just had a quick chat instead - and listen, the really big news is it looks like the Tories have LOST HIS VOTE! - he's so angry about this that he's going to do the obvious thing and vote UKIP - which got me thinking ... I wonder how many others will be doing the same?
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I cannot see what more Cameron could have done to try to secure a referendum for the people of Britain. He moved his party in the EU to the only group that could have possibly held up ratification. He has done everything humanly possible to stop the last Country signing. He has made himself unpopular with the other big Countries in the EU to try to achieve this. I cannot see how he has betrayed us. It is most probably the Conservatives opposition to this Treaty that has made the EU promise those that are reluctant to sign, all manner of sweetners to sign to make sure the people of Britain if the Conservatives come to power, are not given a voice. Some democracy that, we I supposed signed up as quickly as possible and got nothing.
As to a promise of a referendum I have read that in the Sun article he only promised a referendum if he was PM on any EU treaty that emerges from EU negotiations. It is hardly his fault that the Lisbon Treaty has been ratified and that he is not the PM of this Country.
There are two sets of people responsible for why we are in this position now. Those that voted for Labour and believed they would honour their manifesto promises, they should have known better and the Labour Government themselves.
In a democracy a Government has no right to sign any Treaty to which it seems only one third of the population agree with. Especailly when that said Treaty takes so much away from our democracy.
It is quite ridiculous of the media to blame Cameron for something he can do nothing about. The Conservatives have very few choices now as the Lisbon Treaty passes in to law. The best they can hope for is to try and gradually claw back some powers.
I am totally against the EU becoming a super, federal state however I do not blame Cameron for this. I put the blame squarely where it belongs Blair, Brown, the Labour Party and their supporters.
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Of far more importance, is GM extracting the urine, or demonstrating just one more time that clever business people will always be able to jerk politicians and civil servants around?
It seems that having extracted all kinds of concessions from European bureaucrats (particularly german ones) the company now want to cancel their sale, which the financial concessions were due to support, but keep the concessions as an inducement to carrying on business. All of this being done without them having to submit to state ownership, which was the name of the game last year in the US.
And meanwhile, our bill for the global finacial crisis, which only seems to be affecting us, gets bigger and bigger.
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Oooh, here's another european issue.
Why is Griffin, the MEP for NW England, being refused a visit to Sellafield, which is in his constituency?
Is this the thin end of a very thick wedge?
Should we expect a comment from the local governemtn representative - Mr Brown?
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The fact of the matter is that New Labour promised us a Referendum which has never materialized. Why?!!
I see no point in having one now this Treaty has been ratified, it would an appalling waste of time and money.
The whole episode has been an utter disgrace. You only have to look at the Irish position to see that opposing is futile.
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flame @ 253
"He/she cannot spell has appalling grammar and expects us to understand them! Typical Labour/socialist if you don't mind my saying."
comma famine (if you don't mind my saying)
and I bet they CAN spell "has appalling grammar"
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discuss2010 251
So What.
Ashcroft provides money for the Conservatives campaigns the same as the Unions do the Labour Party. I know which one I think has the most undue influence on policy within a Party.
Ashcroft is also a major investor in Belize, funds educational charitable projects for Belize and neighbouring islands. He was nominated for his Knighthood from the Belizean Government. I wonder where Belizean economy would have been without him.
I do not really care where he pays tax, I would not pay tax here either if I could avoid it, thats for sure. We have many actors etc who have made their money in Britain who choose not pay tax here.
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What I find amazing about the hysterical rantings of ant-tory posters on this subject is the pure hypocrisy of their content.
What Cameron pledged was a referendum IF it had not been ratified by the time they were in a position to hold one. I personally think that was clear, and perfectly reasonable. I also have to say that I would refer to hold a referendum about our continued membership, but that wasn't actually on the cards then.
I hope it will be on the cards eventually.
I see no reason why we should NOT continually review our continued membership be any legal and lawful means, after all, the Irish voted NO, but were foreced/encouraged to hold another vote to provide a different answer. Whats good for one side of an argument/discussion is also good for the other, isn't it?
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Is it time to change the record Nick?
I'm personally tired of having to phrase important issues about this country and the economy in a European context, even if some of our problems are arising because of the European context.
Still you, or your puppet masters, know best.
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Sagamix 255
That right you live on hope, because that is all you have left.
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@ 258
"Why is Griffin, the MEP for NW England, being refused a visit to Sellafield, which is in his constituency?"
good question; I can't think of a better place for Griffin than inside Sellafield
right inside it
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#255 Saga
An interesting comment, Saga! There will probably be quite a few 'deserters', and I suspect some of them will NOT be 'europhobes' but just those who do not wish to see us progressing further along the federalist route.
Now, just to set the record straight before we being, I live in France (have done for over nine years) and am not (and never have been) xenophobic. I did vote against joining the EEC/Common Market - the democratic decision went the other way, which of course I accept. But it was the EEC - not the 'European Community', that succeeded it, nor the 'European Union' that we have now. And it was certainly not a 'United States of Europe'that was being offered.
The French and Dutch voted against the Constitutional Treaty; like the UK they were denied the chance to have their say on the Lisbon Treaty. Feeling here is still strongly against the latter - and if you want to know what xenophobia is really like, then you should meet some of the locals around here! If the current Cameron/referendum situation were to arise here in France, then I am sure any 'French Independence from Europe' party would draw a lot of votes.
So please, can we accept that it is not just the 'Little Englanders' who want nothing to do with Federalist Europe? Nor is it just the 'right wing' voters.
No doubt Mr. Cameron's speech this afternoon will draw a few more comments on this or succeeding blogs!
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229.
"The Bill of Rights and the Magna Cata cannot be overturned there were given to the british people in perpetuity"
Misty-eyed nonsense. All the provisions of MC have been overturned, with the exception of Habeas Corpus. And MC wasn’t given to the British people. It had nothing to do with the people. It was a tiny group of foreign (Norman) barons protecting their own narrow interests and privileges. (The Peasants’ Revolt is a better example of embryonic medieval democracy, if you want one, but of course that was crushed by the king and the barons, desperate to preserve the oppressive feudal system.)
And the rest of 229 is the same blinkered, narrow, uninformed, wrap-me-in-a-union-flag claptrap.
“Only the British and Americans can understand what it means to NOT BE AFRAID of their Government”
Really? So Bush and Blair and their illegal war aren’t scary? Tell that to the relatives of service personnel killed in Iraq in the name of American democracy and freedom.
“I have spent half of the last 15 years working in central Europe and lack of openness and fear of Government has to be seen to beleived.”
So have I. And they really like the EU which requires them to reform undemocratic and corrupt practices. The EU is making life better for them, not worse.
“The worst impositioon of all will be Nepolianic Laws and Justice, where you are assumed to be GUILTY until YOU prove your innocense - many innocent people are routinely locked up for upto 3 years before their case goes to court.”
Oh, well, at least only three years in prison – as opposed to the five years the Guantanamo prisoners have been held without trial (by the US government you hold up as a model). Pass me the bucket.
“Cameron must and can legally give us our Referendum, if not, the British People can remove the Politicians from "Power" and we take back the ability to control our own affairs.”
Do you mean vote them out? Or are you going to lead a coup? Not very British.
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253
“He/she cannot spell has appalling grammar and expects us to understand them! Typical Labour/socialist if you don't mind my saying.”
Mmm. You missed a comma out after ‘spell’.
Spot the one grammar and one spelling error in this previous contribution of yours, Flamethrower:
“If there is one thing Brown can do before he hands over power to David Cameron is to liaise with him and do from this day forward that which will be in the very best interests of this country so that the handover can be as un-traumatic as possible for David Cameron.”
Not really important, but typical sanctimonious Tory, if you don’t my saying.
(And naturally the voices of the true Right (e.g. denzil69, Paul Anderson, Andy Little, et al) are models of good grammar, punctuation, spelling – and of course, style.)
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#251 and of cause New labour love the white working class too.
ps so the security at sellafield is so poor that an MEP cannot visit Nick
any comments on that then pls
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Only one country (Ireland) had a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. Voted against first time 'round... result ignored, passed second time of asking with opt outs.
Only 4 countries held referendums on the original Constitution, 2 voted for (Spain, Luxenbourg) and two voted against (France, Netherlands). The two that voted against were never given the chance to vote on the Lisbon Treaty.
Putting aside the merits and demerits of the Treaty itself, the whole process has hardly been democratic, flying in the face of the individual's right to self-determination. In a democracy the government you vote for cannot unilaterally divest itself of some of its responsibilities and jurisdiction without a mandate from its people. Or have I misunderstood democracy?
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I feel a bit sorry for Mr Cameron here. What would be the point of holding a referendum after the event on this matter? It is THIS governments fault that we have been force marched into something that is likely to turn into something very nasty indeed (especially if it involves that horrible Mr Blair chap).
If any referendum is held at all when the Tories come to power next year it should be to decide if we want to stay in Europe or not. I for one will be voting for a swift exit - I just cannot see any benefit at all to being part of this squabbling bunch of misfits. Surely history should have told us that we in Europe simply cannot get on!
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Poor old sagamix; yet again the newlabour apologist latch on to the faintest idea that the tory support might be washing away to UKIP.
Perhaps someone should draw his attention (and that of the BBC) to the editorial in the Suns this morning laying the blame for this mess squarely at the feet of Gordon Brown and the newlabour party for not giving us a referendum.
Mr Cameron, on the other hand, comes out smelling of roses.
We've come too far and there is too much self evident damage done to the economy for a dramatic reversal of fortune for newlabour. It's well and truly over.
Call an election
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charentais @ 266
"So please, can we accept that it is not just the 'Little Englanders' who want nothing to do with Federalist Europe? Nor is it just the 'right wing' voters"
nice name! ... very "European" and sophisticated ... so much better than all the "Free Born Englishman" type handles, I must say
and I agree with you; the old Bennite wing of the Labour Party was strongly anti Europe, weren't they? - I think these days it's mainly people on the right, though, to be honest - not just the X word but something more rational - they (correctly) see our membership of the EU as being a block to extreme right wing policies - there are far more right wing extremists in Britain (or England, I suppose, would be more accurate) than there are of the left wing variety - so it all makes perfect sense
as to wanting nothing to do with a "Federal Europe" well yes - but the EU end game is NOT a superstate along the lines of the USA or (god forbid) the Soviet Union - the vision is not for a superstate at all; that's something of a reactionary bogeyman and I rather wish we could consign it to reactionary bogeyman heaven
no, what it's all about is a number of sovereign Nation States co-operating and harmonising in areas in which it makes to do so (currency, foreign and defence policy, environmental issues, that sort of thing) whilst at the same time competing freely and independently in others (trade, the arts, football etc) and retaining their own distinct cultures and customs ... their own "flavour" if you like
and free movement of people of course; that's important
key point is that the nations which are part of the process will always remain just that ... Nations
oh and did I say "End Game" just now? (I did, didn't I?) well forget that ... it was poor wording ... because there IS no end game - this is not a Project with a target conclusion, it's a Process; a never ending process to achieve greater peace, co-operation and harmony - it's excellent really (guess you can see that now, can't you?) and I have no hesitation in commending it to the House
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sc @ 261
"Ashcroft provides money for the Conservatives campaigns the same as the Unions do the Labour Party. I know which one I think has the most undue influence on policy within a Party"
so how about telling us then, Susan?
that sort of construction only works if the answer is obvious
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rr @ 272
"Poor old sagamix; yet again the newlabour apologists latch on to the faintest idea that the tory support might be washing away to UKIP"
just telling you what my barber said, Robin
you saying barbers don't deserve their say on Britain's Place In Europe?
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215#
Mmmmm...... Bet that felt good, didn't it Eaton??
Haven't been able to do that amount of crowing for a while, have you? You might need to save your voice for a bit longer before another opportunity as juicy as that one passes your way.... ;-)
Whats up? You only seem to come out to play these days when you know you're in with a chance of throwing a stone, unnoticed in all the cacophany.
Safety in numbers, is it?
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No256 Susan,
Your final paragraph is bordering on the infantile. I am beginning to wonder if you are still at school, primary grade.Do you think that Heath, Thatcher and Major had any role in advancing the EU project?
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Charentais 266.
"So please, can we accept that it is not just the 'Little Englanders' who want nothing to do with Federalist Europe? Nor is it just the 'right wing' voters."
I’m afraid the majority of Euro-sceptics are Little Englanders: small-minded, blinkered pessimists who fail to see the big picture. They drone on about loss of democracy and sovereignty, (citing as evidence the latest Daily Express Euro-myth about sausages or whatever), but these people were, for the most part, supporters of 80s right-wing economic and fiscal theory and policy. Why do I mention this? Because Friedmanite economics has done far more to damage democracy, and to erode the powers of national governments, than any EU legislation. ‘You can’t buck the markets!’ we were told. Ultimately, handing power to unelected bankers and corporations (most of them from across the pond) has landed us in the terrible mess we are in now. And democratically elected governments are left to pick up the pieces. If you seriously want to reduce the democratic deficit, shout about that. But as I say, most Eurosceptics fully supported the slide towards greedy unsustainable growth so are unlikely to do so.
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277#
Pardon me for interjecting Sout, but do you think there was as much of a Federalist agenda back then as there appears to have been more recently?
Susan's throwing of the verbal grenade at the usual suspects may be simplistic, but isnt completely without truth - in the same way that what you say isnt, also.
Are we not at risk then, of not comparing like with like?
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Ah, the Hermit returns....
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braveScouter 277
Every post you write is infantile. I also know that you have advanced not at all from primary grade because you have to resort to insults to try to make a point. Consequently your comments are like water off a ducks back. When you have built up some respect for yourself you can criticise others.
I do not recall Health, Thatcher and Major signing the Lisbon Treaty do you. That was what my post was about. However I am not so sure it was that post which upset you.
I am not too troubled about your opinion of my post to be honest.
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That's right saga.. I don't care what your barber says and I eat babies for breakfast. Whatever you say.
It's over for newlabour. They know it.
Call an election
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sagamix 274
The answer is all to obvious, however people who are blinded by prejudice, usually cannot see it.
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#265 and that the sort of comment that drives people into the arms
of the BNP.
what you do not realise is that the UK and Europe are becoming
more a more undemocrate
personally I would like to see new_liebour in total put in there, but I like to have the lights on at night.
they would ruin the reactor just they they have the economy
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When it comes to it Cameron is as un-principled as most politicians. It is expedient to back away from a referendum - nothing more and nothing less. The Tory troops know this will cause problems on the doorstep and I'll bet my last penny that UKIP are delighted.
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I'm getting really p****ed off with changes to the way I can view my previous posts. I can no longer find my previous posts because once I have logged in as all my posts are under "you posted" instead of "busby2 posted". I cannot therefore do a word serach for my user name to find my previous posts once I have logged in.
So can the BBC change this so that posts are always listed under your user name even when you logged in?
I have no idea who to complain to about this. I have to say that I can still search for my posts on the BBC points of view site using my user name when logged in.
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Fubar_Saunders 279
Yes I agree it would be simplistic if I were talking about the history of the EU. I was not, as Scouter knew very well. My whole post was around the issue of why Cameron is not to blame for the signing of the Lisbon Treaty and why the Labour Party are. I believe Cameron has done as much as possible to get us a referendum. Now it is signed and ratified there is no point in having a referendum on this particular issue. There are many issues on which I disagree with the Conservatives, however this is not one of them.
If a party is not in Government it can hardly be blamed for the actions of those that are. As it seems two thirds of people in this Country are against the Lisbon Treaty there must be a lot of Labour voters out there who voted Labour and believed they would honour their manifesto promises, my comment was they should have known better.
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Cameron has sold out as far as I am concerned, I doubt that his announcement will do anything to rescue my vote. UKIP for me now and I cant be the only one thinking that way, has Dave shot himself in the foot?
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From what I've seen as reminders in the press, Cameron promised a referndum on whether or not the government should agree to the Lisbon Treaty (although the original commitment referred to a Constitutional Treaty, on which Labour also promised a referendum).
The only party IN POWER when Lisbon was signed-off was Labour. They failed to offer a referendum.
Gordon pretended that a meeting with a HoC committee was more mportant than him attending the signing affair, so skulked off after all the other politicains were tucking into champagne and canapes.
Cameron cannot now offer a referendum asking "Should we sign the Lisbon Treaty" because it has already been signed and will seemingly be in force in December.
What introgues me is that 25 out of 27 nations had signed off a single document. I understand that the Irish signed off a different document, which included some specific variations to accommodate Irish concerns.
In that case, the documents signed by the others were incomplete and, to form a genuinely cross-nation treaty, must surely have required amendments to all the other's versions of the Treaty.
So does that mean that Brown has actually signed the Lisbon Treaty TWICE with no approval from the electorate?
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267. At 09:55am on 04 Nov 2009, southhams wrote:
To reply further - which wasn't my intention:
229.
"The Bill of Rights and the Magna Cata cannot be overturned there were given to the british people in perpetuity"
Misty-eyed nonsense. All the provisions of MC have been overturned, with the exception of Habeas Corpus. And MC wasn’t given to the British people. It had nothing to do with the people. It was a tiny group of foreign (Norman) barons protecting their own narrow interests and privileges. (The Peasants’ Revolt is a better example of embryonic medieval democracy, if you want one, but of course that was crushed by the king and the barons, desperate to preserve the oppressive feudal system.)
>>> Oh please read and understand the history - we ARE the Barons - they were the wealthy then - most of US are the welath NOW - sure there were some silly bits (which were deleted or ignored) but the fundamental stuff has kept the politicians off our backs and until recently the PEOPLE controlled our destiny (for better or worse) - but the Politicians (especially L'bliar) turned it on its head - in any case WE WERE PROMISED A REFERENDUM 3 TIMES and each time it never happenend - WE THE PEOPLE SHALL DECIDE OUR DESTINY one way or another - I beleive a very large number of people will vote for UKIP and consequently hold the balance in Parliament - this will be interesting !!!!
And the rest of 229 is the same blinkered, narrow, uninformed, wrap-me-in-a-union-flag claptrap.
“Only the British and Americans can understand what it means to NOT BE AFRAID of their Government”
Really? So Bush and Blair and their illegal war aren’t scary? Tell that to the relatives of service personnel killed in Iraq in the name of American democracy and freedom.
>>> Bush or Rather Chainey held the worst Governent in recent recorded history - Likewise B'Liar did the same - this does not necessarily reflect the part - although some (power) Politicians do become corrupted, but over time they get "removed"
“I have spent half of the last 15 years working in central Europe and lack of openness and fear of Government has to be seen to beleived.”
So have I. And they really like the EU which requires them to reform undemocratic and corrupt practices. The EU is making life better for them, not worse.
>>> NO THEY DON'T - If you spend the time getting then to be "truely honest" (which is less then easy) they will tell you that "they want control of their OWN lives they simply IGNORE POLITICS and get on with their lives as best they can - The French HATE anything that compromises their situation (mentioned in other posts) - The Germans keep STUMN unless they really "know you" - The Swedes hate the EU for differnet reasons - Other (sensible) Nordic's either stayed out altogether or got massive opt-outs ..... The EU HATES ANY FORM OF DOMOCRACY .... WHY ??? because it restricts their instinct to control, dominate and live of the "toils of others"
“The worst impositioon of all will be Nepolianic Laws and Justice, where you are assumed to be GUILTY until YOU prove your innocense - many innocent people are routinely locked up for upto 3 years before their case goes to court.”
Oh, well, at least only three years in prison – as opposed to the five years the Guantanamo prisoners have been held without trial (by the US government you hold up as a model). Pass me the bucket.
>>> Should there be ANY ... but Guamtanamo is NOT the UK (bad but not here)
“Cameron must and can legally give us our Referendum, if not, the British People can remove the Politicians from "Power" and we take back the ability to control our own affairs.”
Do you mean vote them out? Or are you going to lead a coup? Not very British.
>>> There are several options but here are a few:
1. Vote them out
2. Create a "hung parliament" by voting UKIP (the LOGICAL choice rather than "emmotional" choice)
3. Go to Parliament and physically remove then, but then replace then by "people of a wide range of backgrounds and political persuasions"
4. Have a civil war (not recommended)
5. Have a military coup (not recommended as you cannot know the final outcome)
6. Force proportional representation (see 2 & 3)
There are more but this gives a flavour
But what ever happens "Things cannot rest there!" to quote a recent well reheased/repeated quotation.
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@ #129. At 3:09pm on 03 Nov 2009, iwinter wrote:
"I'd be all for a referendum if I had any faith in the general public's ability to vote based on the pros and cons of the treaty, rather than the xenophobic, borderline racist attitude that plagues all walks of British society today."
So does that make you a self-confessed xenophobe/racist then as you seem to imply everyone in this country is?
I'm sure I already know the answer to the question, so it probably was pointless writing it but the point remains the same. I'm not xenophobic or racist, I have black/asian/foreign friends and I have no issues with such things. I think you'll find that xenophobia and racism aren't as widely spread as you may claim. However, I would agree that there are a fair few of these people out there and it's always easy to give in to fear without knowing things. I am one of thinking people are people, I judge by the individual person and not by any type of prejudice. I will admit that I sometimes stereotype or categorise people without knowing them and I'm sure we all do it in our own ways to differing degrees but I consider that to be the nature of people, if I was ever in a position of getting to know someone I would throw that stuff aside and understand them as an individual.
Yes, there may be elements of xenophobia and racism that drive people's thoughts for being agaisnt the EU and this Treaty. However, I think you'll find the majority are well aware of the facts of how the EU currently operates and the state of affairs within this country on a complete lack of control over immigration that drive people. When our government can run this country properly and can have a proper handle on the immigration situation then we'll be more willing to accept the idea of a central EU group having some extra powers in certain affairs. However, our own government can't seem to run this country effectively in any way and generally appear to have no control over anything. Take this to the EU level and we have too many politicians, again not being able to run most things effectively and again, very little control over quite a few areas. It's bad enough that within the EU we don't agree with a lot of the stuff that comes out of it yet it has a great impact on all our lives.
I'm all for Europe and cooperation, but until I see a government in control and running this country properly and puting British interests more in the foreground as opposed to generally hiding and cowering then I will be more willing to accept the argument of an EU Constitution and Treaty. Until then, we've operated independently as nations and together as the EU for years without such a Constitution being needed so why do we suddenly need such a big rush to ratify it all through without giving people a chance to express themselves on a matter that will affect their lives.
Our government is all for giving away power, the majority of this country is, in effect, owned by foreigners and all we get is them wanting to constantly hand more power over to the EU. Is it completely necessary?
I think not, when our government and the EU can prove themselves to be effective to their own nations and Europe, then I will be quite happy to vote in the YES camp. However, the politicians fail to prove themselves time and time again and the more we tie all our interests in to Europe (I feel the need to express the saying "Don't put all your eggs in one basket") the riskier the venture will be and it will not be the government that has to deal with it, it will be the people of this and every other country in the EU. France and Germany have already done enough to con this country out of resources all in the name of the EU and what have the british people received out of it, more taxes without the benefit.
"I'm not sure why people are whining about not getting an EU referendum and how this is undemocratic when we have an even bigger issue back home here in Britain in that due to the first past the post system we keep getting governments that receive effective 100% of power due to the whip system and a majority in the commons despite only getting around 35% to 40% of the vote. Whilst we keep getting parties holding 100% of power against the will of 60% to 65% of the population we've got much bigger problems home here. In the 2005 election for example 19 million people's vote simply did not count due to safe seats, how can we possibly whine about the democratic values of a referendum on the EU when 19 million of our voters didn't actually have a real effective vote?
The idea Britain is a democracy is a joke, at best we're a dictatorship where an organised minority is able to impose a leader on the majority with more disjoint political views with the only thing sepearating us from most other dictatorships is that there is at least a limit on the power and length of time said dictators like Blair, Brown and soon Cameron can hold their grip on power.
Britain needs rid of first past the post before we even begin to worry about a referendum on the EU- if we did that then a referendum on the EU could've come naturally anyway."
Completely agreed here, it has been a very long time since I actually thought that our country was a proper democracy. We are closer to the dictatorship mark. I always go out and vote because I want my voice to count for something as far as it can because it's the only time I get to make my mark in this country. However, this is the fault of the politicians who have lost touch with the electorate. It all begins and ends with the politicians, get them sorted and the country will start heading in the right direction. I, myself, have often considered what the point in voting is and the only conclusion I reached was that if I didn't vote, I would have no right to complain about the outcome, therefore, by voting I have a right to complain about the outcome and about how uselessly politicians run this country. They have far too much power and are allowed to get away with far too much and they're not even fully representative of the country.
If true democracy mattered, we would all be given access to computers and would be allowed to vote on everything that passed through the Houses of Parliament. This is why the politicians like things as they are, they enjoy their positions and what they receive, they like the status quo. Like the expenses enquiry, we should do a full independent enquiry in to the need for MPs in a modern day world of effective communications technology and what their jobs and purposes should entail for a modern world. This country, in some ways, is still stuck in the Dark Ages, and it's about time they actually woke up to the Light and actually did something instead of constantly spouting garbage about how modern our country is in this modern day world that we live in. If people are ignorant, why is that? Because, clealry, the government line is failing in every possible way to reach and educate every person in this country about what this country and living in it is all about.
This country is a mess.
I want an election.
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I am sure that the people of the UK want to know why labour lied over holding a referendum. This is key before the Tories are questioned on their stance. The BBC / Nick Robinson do not ask the right questions and I wonder why.
It was also nice to see the labour puppet speaker tell Brown to sit down. Brown was yet again failing to score a political point. In fact Brown was out of order on such a solemn day, some may even say sick.
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No281 Susan,
Is the question too difficult for you to understand?I repeat,did Heath, Thatcher and Major play any role in advancing the EU project?and if so, what actions will they be most associated with?I am prepared to help you if you are interested in learning.
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290. At 1:20pm on 04 Nov 2009, Paul Anderson wrote:
To reply further - which wasn't my intention:
- - - - -
But I'm so glad you did!
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290
I really don't know where to start, so I don't think I will.
Just one tip though: when you spend time getting Europeans "to be truly honest" (which you say is difficult – I guess because unlike us Brits Europeans tend to be slippery and evasive?), don't talk to them IN CAPITAL LETTERS.
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253 Flame thrower
#OMG how can anybody take seriously 231. Laughing Devil?
He/she cannot spell has appalling grammar and expects us to understand them!
Typical Labour/socialist if you don't mind my saying.
--------------------------
Well any decent minded person would mind you saying, actually.
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So laughing devil is denied respect because he/she has not had the benifit of a good education,on the other hand you consider that because you can string a few words together that are grammatically correct your entitled to full respect, is that correct?.
You may not wish to agree with what he/she says but at least he/she is contributing to the debate, whereas your remarks are spiteful unwarranted
and certainly show you to be of very poor intelligence.
I take it that you only converse with people you consider to be like minded, if thats the case you might find solace in your lonely life by conversing with U14147588 he appears to hold a similar viewpoint to you.
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278. At 11:57am on 04 Nov 2009, southhams wrote:
Charentais 266.
"So please, can we accept that it is not just the 'Little Englanders' who want nothing to do with Federalist Europe? Nor is it just the 'right wing' voters."
I’m afraid the majority of Euro-sceptics are Little Englanders: small-minded, blinkered pessimists who fail to see the big picture. They drone on about loss of democracy and sovereignty, (citing as evidence the latest Daily Express Euro-myth about sausages or whatever), but these people were, for the most part, supporters of 80s right-wing economic and fiscal theory and policy. Why do I mention this? Because Friedmanite economics has done far more to damage democracy, and to erode the powers of national governments, than any EU legislation. ‘You can’t buck the markets!’ we were told. Ultimately, handing power to unelected bankers and corporations (most of them from across the pond) has landed us in the terrible mess we are in now. And democratically elected governments are left to pick up the pieces. If you seriously want to reduce the democratic deficit, shout about that. But as I say, most Eurosceptics fully supported the slide towards greedy unsustainable growth so are unlikely to do so.
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Arf, spot the newlab trogladyte.
When losing the argument, resort to smear and pigeonhole everyone who disagrees with you as somehow inferior.
Eurosceptics are all greedy, insular ignorat (insert any number of chosen insults here).
Well, I happen to think all non Eurosceptics are socialist, workphobic halfwits. Of course, I have no more evidence for my claim than you do, but given that I am clearly much better informed, lets go with my assessment rather than yours.
Moving on to the sensible argument to be had here. I am as disappointed as all sensible people that we will not get a referendum on this treaty. I made a promise last year to help trim an overgrown tree in my dear old mum's garden. Since a nasty old storm came and blew the blasted thing down, I don't think the promise applies anymore. After all, I can not turn back time and recreate the tree.
I choose to blame the storm not sure any reasonable person could blame me.
Just a further point. Those who are claiming we have been conned by this promise being reneged. We would indeed have been conned if we had been duped into voting for Cameron based on this promise. But since we have not now been, nor ever will be (he is not going into an election with it on his manifesto after all, we will know the facts when the time comes to vote), you can not claim to have been conned. Disappointed, let down most certainly. But never conned.
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braveScounter 293
I have neither the time nor am interested in discussing the EU with you and certainly would not request your help in learning. You made an accusation about my post which was not true. I have corrected that, for me that is the end of the discussion.
My post was on the signing of the Lisbon Treaty. I have my own view on the history of the EU, however this is not the forum for discussing it. When that is the subject of a discussion I will give my opinion, it may very well agree with yours, who knows, I do not tie myself to any particular party as you do.
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291#
It means you're not allowed to think for yourself, much less make decisions.
The party decides what you should think and when you should think it.
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253 Flame thrower
Sneering at other people's inferior standard of literacy is probably the biggest hostage to fortune since Brown said he's abolished boom and bust. (Type carefully!)
It's also very unattractive.
You risk giving right-wing bigots a bad name!
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272 rock robin 7
#Perhaps someone should draw his attention (and that of the BBC) to the editorial in the Suns this morning laying the blame for this mess squarely at the feet of Gordon Brown and the newlabour party for not giving us a referendum.
I take it you hadn't heard that the Sun are backing Cameron then.
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hey Robin (!) @ 282
check out "I Despise Labour" at 288
looks like he "despises" Cameron too, because of this
gonna vote UKIP now, innit?
and he's not even my barber
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300. At 2:02pm on 04 Nov 2009, pdavies65 wrote:
253 Flame thrower
Sneering at other people's inferior standard of literacy is probably the biggest hostage to fortune since Brown said he's abolished boom and bust. (Type carefully!)
It's also very unattractive.
You risk giving right-wing bigots a bad name!
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Oooooooooooooo can I play.
You risk giving lazy left wing workshy benefits thieves a bad game.
Look, we can all do it.
(By the way, agree on one point, lets not sink to criticising poor education, shame you can't make it without the obnoxious snidy little comment).
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No 44 Khrystaler
You keep asking how the Lib Dems have renaged on their promises.
In February 2008, i beleive, there was a vote in parlimant as to whether we should have a referendum. Nick Clegg ordered the Lib Dems to abstain, which prevented the British people from having their referendum.
Please follow this link (if allowed):
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3449054.ece
I hope this clears up your query.
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“I do not recall Health, Thatcher and Major signing the Lisbon Treaty do you. That was what my post was about. However I am not so sure it was that post which upset you.
I am not too troubled about your opinion of my post to be honest.”
Susan,
Like most anti eu ranters, your comments are a mixture of a total lack of understanding, and party politics.
Trying to use a subject to attack a party you don’t like. Rather than any real interest in how the subject has been shaped in the last 30 years.
Here it is:
We were brought into the EU by Heath (a tory). To boost our economy. As we were being ganged up upon by our neighbours, and losing out in trade.
It took 3 attempts to be accepted. The French and German blocked our first couple of attempts to get in. Heath went cap in hand, to the EU, to be allowed in.
The Labour party created a referendum on membership in 1975, as they were unhappy with the amounts of power the tories had given away to get in, in the first place.
A young tory minister called Margaret Thatcher, led the campaign to bat away this objection to the EU. She was the prime figure in the “yes to EU” campaign. The ironic thing being, Labour were the tory sceptics in the 70s.
John Major, was one of the most pro EU leaders we have ever had. The whole situation was shape by him, and his consistent signing of euro treaties, without referendum.
Why do you associate euro scepticism with the tories? Why do you think it’s a Labour thing?
Both parties have driven us that way. Both parties leaderships are largely moderate on the subject.
Both parties have a “right” element on the subject, who they try to appease with token gestures.
Do you not get these “promises” are carefully worded gerstures to get right wing loons to vote for you?
Cameron had as much intention of having a referendum as Brown did. They both “got out” by wording their pledges very carefully.
Cameron knew the treaty would be in place. And had no intention of ever doing anything about it.
Referendums are held on exisiting laws all the time. It could easily be done. Just as Labour did in 1975
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303. At 2:12pm on 04 Nov 2009, greatHayemaker wrote:
You risk giving lazy left wing workshy benefits thieves a bad game.
Look, we can all do it.
- - - - -
Yeah, but things are only funny the first time.
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hi Paul (Anderson) @ 290 and before
Aw ... you were expecting a round of applause from the stalls for all that pseudo "Man of the World" gibberish, weren't you?
Quel Dommage!
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“Well, I happen to think all non Eurosceptics are socialist, workphobic halfwits. Of course, I have no more evidence for my claim than you do, but given that I am clearly much better informed, lets go with my assessment rather than yours”
A quick retort. Tabloid newspapers – what is their allegiance in general? Would you say that most trashy tabloids are eurosceptic right wing rags? Or left wing pro euro broad sheets.
The fact that you don’t get the obvious fact that tabloids target thick people with this rhetoric, suggest to me that you aint half as clever as you think you are, and all that.
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“Arf, spot the newlab trogladyte.
When losing the argument, resort to smear and pigeonhole everyone who disagrees with you as somehow inferior.
Eurosceptics are all greedy, insular ignorat (insert any number of chosen insults here).
Well, I happen to think all non Eurosceptics are socialist, workphobic halfwits. Of course, I have no more evidence for my claim than you do, but given that I am clearly much better informed, lets go with my assessment rather than yours.
Moving on to the sensible argument to be had here. I am as disappointed as all sensible people that we will not get a referendum on this treaty. I made a promise last year to help trim an overgrown tree in my dear old mum's garden. Since a nasty old storm came and blew the blasted thing down, I don't think the promise applies anymore. After all, I can not turn back time and recreate the tree.
I choose to blame the storm not sure any reasonable person could blame me.
Just a further point. Those who are claiming we have been conned by this promise being reneged. We would indeed have been conned if we had been duped into voting for Cameron based on this promise. But since we have not now been, nor ever will be (he is not going into an election with it on his manifesto after all, we will know the facts when the time comes to vote), you can not claim to have been conned. Disappointed, let down most certainly. But never conned.”
Haymaker,
Ahhh, I really expected you to move away from your party political Labour attacks on this subject.
You disappoint me…….
Anyway, a retort to your predictable message (I really could have written it my self. A few “socialists and “bliars” around a rabid defence of the fact that Cameron can do no wrong).
“When losing the argument, resort to smear and pigeonhole everyone who disagrees with you as somehow inferior.”
No offence, but it takes you about 2 messages before you start calling anyone who doesn’t agree with you either a “socialist” or something worse.
Ahhhhh I spoke to soon!
” I happen to think all non Eurosceptics are socialist, workphobic halfwits. Of course, I have no more evidence for my claim than you do, but given that I am clearly much better informed, lets go with my assessment rather than yours.”
“Eurosceptics are all greedy, insular ignorat (insert any number of chosen insults here).”
I think it’s a fair opinion to have. Most euro sceptics work on ideologies – as in, how they want the world to exist if trade, money, nato, UN, didn’t exist.
It’s based on the theory that british people are better than everyone else. Little more.
Intelligent people realise that cutting off your nose, to spite your face, for little more than “pride” is very insular and neagative. Especially when many people rely on the EU trade agreements for the jobs they have.
“Just a further point. Those who are claiming we have been conned by this promise being reneged. We would indeed have been conned if we had been duped into voting for Cameron based on this promise. But since we have not now been, nor ever will be (he is not going into an election with it on his manifesto after all, we will know the facts when the time comes to vote), you can not claim to have been conned. Disappointed, let down most certainly. But never conned.””
Your selective memory baffles me to be honest.
Cameron won the leadership on his euro sceptic credentials.
Much of his poll lead has been based on a consistent insistence that he will give the people a vote “no matter where this treaty takes us”.
He fought off various right wing party coups with this promise.
For it to turn out that it was just a carefully worded smoke and mirror job, that he had no plans to keep, is just as great a betrayl
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305. At 2:20pm on 04 Nov 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
“I do not recall Health, Thatcher and Major signing the Lisbon Treaty do you. That was what my post was about. However I am not so sure it was that post which upset you.
I am not too troubled about your opinion of my post to be honest.”
Susan,
Like most anti eu ranters, your comments are a mixture of a total lack of understanding, and party politics.
---------------
Oh lordy, more satire from our most blinkered resident troll.
"YOU ARE ALL BIASED, I AM BETTER THAN YOU THEREFORE MY OPINION IS BETTER THAN YOURS"
etc. etc.
I'll say goodbye for now. See you all again when he has been put back in his kennel.
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"Well, I happen to think all non Eurosceptics are socialist, workphobic halfwits. Of course, I have no more evidence for my claim than you do, but given that I am clearly much better informed, lets go with my assessment rather than yours"
Deary me, Great Hayemaker seems to think that the ranting "euro sceptic" set is the informed, intellectual side to this debate!
Can I make a very obvious point. Who promotes this "Europe is the devil" thing.
Trashy tabloids.
Why are trashy tabloids the only people who do it? As they realise that intelligent people won't buy into such sensationalism.
Old man, let's be honest, tabloid readers are targeted for such messages, as they aint the most politcally smartest, and all that.
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297
I’m not smearing or pigeonholing anybody, just pointing out the obvious: that (1) the majority of (but, as I said, not all) Eurosceptics are Little Englanders, and (2) most of them fully backed the far more serious erosion of our democracy perpetrated by Thatcher and Reagan in the 80s.
Speaking as a ‘socialist workphobic halfwit’ (now who’s smearing and pigeionholing), I’d agree with the epithet ‘insular’ that you suggest for Eurosceptics, but not with ‘greedy’ and ‘ignorant’ (unless you know different).
Newlab trogladite (sic)? Now, that’s just obnoxious, and we know you don’t approve of that – see 300). But seriously, New Labour embraced all of Thatcher’s reforms. You obviously weren’t following my argument.
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"You risk giving lazy left wing workshy benefits thieves a bad game.
Look, we can all do it.
(By the way, agree on one point, lets not sink to criticising poor education, shame you can't make it without the obnoxious snidy little comment"
Hayemaker
You spend all of your time on here calling people the above. Stop trying to claim that it's only in retort to other people's points.
I will start reporting comments like "You risk giving lazy left wing workshy benefits thieves a bad game."
This is a debating chamber, not a place for you to try and abuse people on their political beliefs
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297 GHM
"Moving on to the sensible argument to be had here."
-------
You were actually on stronger ground while you were just name-calling. Your sensible arguments do not stack up.
"I can not turn back time and recreate the tree.
I choose to blame the storm not sure any reasonable person could blame me."
------
You're 100 percent right when talking about the tree. But you can't prove anything by analogy. The tree's up-ended, but the treaty lingers on ... And a referendum is possible. If it weren't, there'd be no debate.
------
"Just a further point. Those who are claiming we have been conned by this promise being reneged. We would indeed have been conned if we had been duped into voting for Cameron based on this promise. But since we have not now been, nor ever will be (he is not going into an election with it on his manifesto after all, we will know the facts when the time comes to vote), you can not claim to have been conned. Disappointed, let down most certainly. But never conned."
-----
This is just semantics. You can claim to be conned if you pledge your support on the basis of a promise which is not fulfilled.
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The great hayemaker is under the impression that right wing tabloid rags spout out right wing, eurosceptic bile every day of the week, on the basis that it's actually the intelligent view on such subjects, and that the intelligence of it's readers is respected worldwide..........
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308. At 2:26pm on 04 Nov 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
“Well, I happen to think all non Eurosceptics are socialist, workphobic halfwits. Of course, I have no more evidence for my claim than you do, but given that I am clearly much better informed, lets go with my assessment rather than yours”
A quick retort. Tabloid newspapers – what is their allegiance in general? Would you say that most trashy tabloids are eurosceptic right wing rags? Or left wing pro euro broad sheets.
--------
I wouldn't know, I don't read them. You obviously have a far better knowledge of them than me.
Which makes your last sentence...
------
The fact that you don’t get the obvious fact that tabloids target thick people with this rhetoric,
----------
........rather revealing.
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"My post was on the signing of the Lisbon Treaty. I have my own view on the history of the EU, however this is not the forum for discussing it. When that is the subject of a discussion I will give my opinion, it may very well agree with yours, who knows, I do not tie myself to any particular party as you do"
The problem being, you are not willing to accept that there hasn't been a single referendum on any EU treaty since 1975. And that was brought in by the Labour party.
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The great hayemaker is under the impression that his tabloid rag targets his readership, for their opinions, on the basis that he's been hand picked for his superior intelligence on the subject.
And not the point that he's of a mind set that accepts sensationalism on the subject as fact.
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The Independent, The Guardian, The Telegraph, The times:
They don't spout out anti-eu rubbish every day of the week, as they don't want to insult people's intelligence, no matter what their political allegiance.
All of this "anti democracy, anti foreigner, we'll lose our rights" rubbish just comes from tabloids, who print what they think their readership will accept on the subject.
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Grandantidote
The last time I looked, this was a free country and a democracy, despite newlabour's best efforts to ruin both.
People can vote for whomseover they please; it matters not a jot to me.
I'm not the one trying to rally support off the mid twenties using a track record of bankrupting the country.
Call an election.
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"From what I've seen as reminders in the press, Cameron promised a referndum on whether or not the government should agree to the Lisbon Treaty (although the original commitment referred to a Constitutional Treaty, on which Labour also promised a referendum)."
He didn't. His core promise was that the public would have a vote, no matter what "the result of the treaty".
Most people knew that the law would already be in place by the time they got in. The promise implied that there would be a vote, no matter what the result of other countries actions.
All he has done is imply that in using the word "treaty" he isn't lying, as "treaty" is now "law" so his promise isn't valid.
Brown did the same. Blair only promised a vote on the original euro set of policies - which were rejected by France before it got to us. Brown claimed they made no guarentee on the new treaty.
Either way, both of them implied about things they had no intention of keeping, to keep the loony right off their backs
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"Well, I happen to think all non Eurosceptics are socialist, workphobic halfwits. Of course, I have no more evidence for my claim than you do, but given that I am clearly much better informed, lets go with my assessment rather than yours”"
I'd suggest the vast majority of "workphobes" are complete euro sceptics.
Unless you think tabloid newspapes spouting off about "them foreigners nicking our rights" in big letters, every day of the week is some coincidence.
No offence, but I'd argue that the vast majority of pro european voters, are those intelligent enough to realise that being in the EU is not going to mean an immediate ban to roast beef dinners, and us having to sing some euro anthem, in homage to the euro empire every sunday
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Mike_ Naylor 305
Its a so what.
I know all of that.
You have a real problem with reading dont you. My post was exclusively about the signing of the Lisbon Treaty.
Labour promised a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty (and before anyone jumps in everyone, even the guy who wrote the Treaty says its the same) they did not keep their promise, thats it, the rest is history. Labour signed the Treaty not the Conservatives, end of.
You are the one making political points, and I have to say you are not doing it very well. Very difficult to defend the indefensible, I would have thought. Now go and shove your politics down someone elses throat, I am not interested.
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307. At 2:24pm on 04 Nov 2009, sagamix wrote:
hi Paul (Anderson) @ 290 and before
Aw ... you were expecting a round of applause from the stalls for all that pseudo "Man of the World" gibberish, weren't you?
Quel Dommage!
>>> No - did I say anything to suggest or encourage your comment
I simply relayed true experiences, if you have a problem with that, well that's your problem ... get a life and do some travelling er .. "No !" .. better yet, go work there for say 12 months and try to live their lives ...
Qué lástima - Che peccato - Was für ein Mitleid - Que pena .... etc
Adquira uma vida - Bekommen Sie ein Leben - Obtenez une vie ....
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@ AndyC555, post #168;
"Who ARE you? Nick's brother?"
Heh; no. Just someone - part of a growing number of people, looking back through some of the recent comments across the BBC blog network - who's getting increasingly frustrated with seeing the BBC and its journalists constantly denigrated for "bias" by the political partisans. You people have no right to be expressing an opinion on what constitutes bias. You make no attempt to be objective yourself; you're convinced that Cameron and the Tories are nigh-on perfect, just as you're convinced that Brown and Labour are utterly useless in every way.
Hence, when you get a blog which says that occasionally, Brown doesn't screw things up completely; or a blog which says that, sometimes, Cameron suffers political difficulties too; you start screaming "bias".
It's not bias. It's just that you're wrong about the whole "Conservatives = Absolutely Good, Labour = Absolutely Bad" thing. I know that can be hard to accept, sometimes. But it's true. Hopeless though they are, Labour don't always make a total screw-up of everything. And though the Tories might be a better option for the country, right now, they're pretty damn far from being perfect. Or even good for the UK.
If you're determined that every time a report comes up that says that Brown managed to get something even slightly right, it's bias... well then, there's probably little hope for you. But please, don't expect anyone to treat the rest of your opinions all that seriously, if that is indeed the case.
"And that's the best example of Nick being highly critical of Brown?
Wierd how virtually every other sector of the press viewed it as a snub. Guess only Nick can see the light."
You weren't kidding, were you? I was correct, above, wasn't I? You really DON'T bother to read these blogs before you wade in and start making accusations of bias.
Had you actually bothered to read the blog we're talking about before venturing your opinion, you couldn't have failed to notice that it was entitled "Obama Snub denied by Brown camp".
Looks like Robinson was viewing it as a snub too, despite the fact that Labour were denying that's exactly what it was. That's TWO apologies you now own him for blatently lying in order to paint him as biased.
Ah, but of course - the two men (Brown and Obama) ended up, the following day, sharing the stage together for a photo opportunity; and NR accurately reported this. So, obviously, that must be bias because Nick dared to report something that painted Brown as something less than completely inadequate, right?
I mean, he did predict it was going to happen, at the end of his "Obama Snubs Brown" blog - "We also know that by day's end Obama will have found a way to show how much he values Brown. It will, of course, be too late." And sure enough, at the start of the very next day, Nick was blogging about how Obama and Brown had hurriedly cobbled together a photo-op.
But never mind, huh? The fact that NR both reported on Brown being snubbed, and then predicted a rushed face-saving exercise, doesn't really fit with your deeply-held convictions about bias, does it? So just ignore the facts and carry on regardless, huh?
"I'll cheerfully apologise for a badly worded earlier posting. I am sure you preview all yours at length just in case some pedant picks you up on something."
No, but I do usually try and make sure I haven't said anything blatantly stupid and untrue, just in case I give people the impression I'm a politically-biased hack who'll say anything to pretend he has a point and then deny it later - in the very same discussion, if needs be.
And, once again - you claimed that NR "never" made any posts about Brown and his various problems. That isn't a "poorly-worded posting". That's you claiming something doesn't happen, when you know full well that it does.
Well, looks like this blog is wrapping up, now - I'm not even sure that it'll still be open by the time I've finished writing this - so I hope to speak with you again in a further discussion, somewhere.
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"Oh lordy, more satire from our most blinkered resident troll.
"YOU ARE ALL BIASED, I AM BETTER THAN YOU THEREFORE MY OPINION IS BETTER THAN YOURS"
etc. etc.
I'll say goodbye for now. See you all again when he has been put back in his kennel.
"
Irony is not a word you seem to understand.
Bearing in mind most of your retorts to decent points have been along the lines of:
"I think all euro pro voters are socialist work shy blah blah blah".
Can you explain to me the link between pro europe voting (as in, it's generally based on industry, work, and people who work in the global market) and not having a job?
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Mike_ Naylor 317
Its another so what.
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" wouldn't know, I don't read them. You obviously have a far better knowledge of them than me.
Which makes your last sentence...
------
The fact that you don’t get the obvious fact that tabloids target thick people with this rhetoric,
----------
........rather revealing.
"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Come now Hayemaker. Reading your position on most things, I'd be amazed if you'd never every picked up a copy of the Daily Mail!
An earlier comment, you called pro europe voters "work shy socialists".
Would you like to explain how you got to that position? If it wasn't just based on tabloid bile?
As in, most pro euro voters are graduates who work in world markets, and who want better access to european and world trade.
I'd suggest to you that the workshy camp all buy the sun, and are worried about the EU banning Union jacks, and invading with some goose stepping, Euro army force.......
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"I wouldn't know, I don't read them. You obviously have a far better knowledge of them than me.
Which makes your last sentence...
------
The fact that you don’t get the obvious fact that tabloids target thick people with this rhetoric,
----------
........rather revealing.
"
I've come to realise that you use pointless quips, innuendo, to answer any political point.
Making me believe you're a tad lightweight.
Please answer why ALL tabloid are anti europe.
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Terrific... I wondered where the hyena's had got to.
Looks like its going to be another feeding frenzy.........
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325#
"you're convinced that Brown and Labour are utterly useless in every way."
Well, the evidence to support that notion is starting to stack up, somewhat....... :-)
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For those of you here using a lot of quotes. I would recommend using italics to highlight them. Here's how if my code doesn't go wrong. if it does, then you could google HTML codes. Dont use any others as I don't think they work. Unfortunately lot of your messages are very difficult to follow.
italics <i>quote here</i>
Bold <b>highlighted text</b>
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re 332
to do bold. Replace the ampersand gt bit with a greater than sign. Like the italics.
The codes I used to display italics code and the bold code are the same. Ive no idea how that didn't work.
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Theres some narrow thinking views being thrown around here.
Being anti-EU apparantly makes you a upper class out of touch xenophobic toff.
Being pro-europe apparantly makes you an uneducated, work shy comunist.
Well I'm Pro-Europe and I've got an IQ of 162, have a Masters Degree in Astrophysics and currently work in Intelectual Property Law.
I'm sure there are more than a few young working class left wing people who are anti-europe.
The whole point of the debate is about the problems Cameron faces and the implications for the Tory party and probably the country, since they are favorite to win the next election. It's not about name calling or attacking people who disagree with you for being 'misinformed'. If you think they are wrong tell them, but be polite please.
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Mike_Naylor
in post #329 you wrote "Please answer why ALL tabloid are anti europe"
You criticise those you suppose are less intelligent than you and then come up with what purports to be a sentence that makes the less than average Sun reader a genius by comparison!
I have a much more interesting question for you. Why don't you answer the question why nearly all the braodsheets are euro sceptic?
Busby2
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334. At 4:08pm on 04 Nov 2009, Colonicus42 wrote:
Theres some narrow thinking views being thrown around here.
Being anti-EU apparantly makes you a upper class out of touch xenophobic toff.
Being pro-europe apparantly makes you an uneducated, work shy comunist.
---------
Assume you are referring to my comments.
Let me reassure you, I believe no such thing. I was merely responding in a slightly hamfisted manner to some of the mud slinging and tedious stereotyping. Attempting to show them their level by parodying it back to them, if you will.
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Anyone seen David Cameron's news conference...
Apparently British Law will be made superior to European Law in ALL areas!
David Cameron obviously wants out of the EU for to achieve such a proposal would make it impossible to stay within the EU.
He has obviously lost his mind and his ability to reason! Totally unfit to lead the Nation - no change there then, but lots of people were expecting more from him.
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P Anderson @ 324
now that one's MUCH better, Paul ... especially the multi lingual kiss off!
thing is though, I've lived in 13 ... yes THIRTEEN ... different European countries - lived in them, I mean, not just passed through - I've lived in towns, villages, big cities and even (a couple of times) on a farm - I've been poor in Prague, rich in Rhodes and absolutely blitzed in Berlin - I've mixed it in plush offices with shiny tables, in houses big and small, and I've been caught up in smoky back rooms with the sort of people who like smoky back rooms - and in all that time, in all those places ... wheresoever I roamed ... I heard nothing but enthusiam, praise and support for the idea of the European Union - people used to stop me in the street just to tell me about it! - got a bit boring to be honest with you
I guess one sees what one wants to see, hears what one wants to hear
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336 GHM wrote:
I was merely responding in a slightly hamfisted manner
Plus ça change …
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336. At 4:36pm on 04 Nov 2009, greatHayemaker wrote:
334. At 4:08pm on 04 Nov 2009, Colonicus42 wrote:
Theres some narrow thinking views being thrown around here.
Being anti-EU apparantly makes you a upper class out of touch xenophobic toff.
Being pro-europe apparantly makes you an uneducated, work shy comunist.
---------
Assume you are referring to my comments.
Let me reassure you, I believe no such thing. I was merely responding in a slightly hamfisted manner to some of the mud slinging and tedious stereotyping. Attempting to show them their level by parodying it back to them, if you will."
No I wasn't refering to your coments, I was refering to the coments you were commenting on (Does that even make sense?).
Seems to be alot of overused stereotyping being thrown about, and it doesn't do any good unless your looking for an argument (which I actually suspect some people are doing).
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338. At 4:52pm on 04 Nov 2009, sagamix wrote:
P Anderson @ 324
thing is though, I've lived in 13 ...
:-) :-0
OK, no need to boast :-0
Let's just say I have lived and worked for at least a year in each of the following:
Austria, Germany, France, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Russia (family), Spain, USA (argh) and of course UK !! I have probably passed through several more but they doesn't count.
WRT what we talk about, actually many of these people actively ask me about UK politics and it becomes "an exchange of ideas" especially after a beer or two ;-)
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#338
The thing is 'Your oppinions are coloured by your experiences and your experiences are coloured by you oppinions' (Don't know who said that so I'm gonna claim it as mine untill proved otherwise.)
Euro-sceptics see Europe in turmoil and Pro-europeans see it as a gleaming example of cooperation. Both are probably wrong to one degree or another. The point is that Europe aint going anywhere, and if the others are forming a gang I'd rather be in the gang than left on my own with the US.
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You have to admire the sheer brass neck of GB and Blunkett et al at PMQs with the references to Cameron's 'cast iron promise'.
They've gone beyond hypocrisy... maybe they just don't give a monkey's what the public think of them anymore.
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paul @ 341
"especially after a beer or two"
you're right about the revealing effects of the booze - I won't say in which country but I remember this one time ... it's really stuck in my memory, actually ... I had a couple of beers with this guy (well I had a couple, he had six) and it was fascinating; he started off a respectable businessman type and, as the alcohol kicked in, his persona gradually altered - the layers peeled off, as it were, and by the end of the sesh I was listening to the ramblings of a fervent, blood curdling fascist! - yeah, never forgot that
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the media should concentrate on brown rather than cameron, hes done the best he can.its brown who has sold us down the european river, lets just hurry up and get rid of this idiot .brownwatch 207 days max
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#342
"...if the others are forming a gang I'd rather be in the gang than left on my own with the US."
Hear hear. And England would most certainly be on its own as Scotland will have no truck with isolationism. Any attempt by Cameron to further distance this country from the EU will GUARANTEE the break-up of the UK.
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colonicus @ 342
yes, you claim that one then
but you'd better do it quick because I've got MY eyes on it too!
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347#
Isnt that quote a bit too man of the world for you mate? :-)
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276 Fubes
said
"Haven't been able to do that amount of crowing for a while, have you? You might need to save your voice for a bit longer before another opportunity as juicy as that one passes your way.... ;-)
Whats up? You only seem to come out to play these days when you know you're in with a chance of throwing a stone, unnoticed in all the cacophany."
====================
True Fubes I'm not a full timer like yourself... Work and family you see.
As for crowing, what about David Blanchflower ( Professor of Economics and Former Bank of England Advisor) and his views on the Tories Economic Policies announced at Tory Conference??
A few Quotes.
"The plans that David Cameron and George Osborne outlined this week are the most wildly dangerous economic proposals that Britain has seen in the past 100 years.
They show absolutely no understanding of basic economics.
I guess that isn't surprising given that neither of them, as far as I can tell, has any background or training in economics. And it shows.
You don't cut public spending in a recession. No ifs, no buts. It's as simple as that.
The Great Depression was actually W-shaped rather than V-shaped.
The Great Crash occurred in 1929 but by 1933 the US economy had largely recovered.
But a series of monetary and fiscal mistakes drove the country back into a deep recession at the end of 1937. The authorities assumed the recovery was fully established and tightened monetary and fiscal policy too soon.
We are still in the depths of the deepest recession of our lifetimes and the Tories look like making a similar policy error. It's 1937 all over again.
Just like in medicine, a fundamental principle of economics has to be to do no harm.
If a doctor offers you a cure but says there is a 50% chance the treatment will kill you, you would surely think twice unless faced with certain death.
But we are not in such a situation. Monetary and fiscal stimulus has so far kept us out of a depression and will keep doing so as long as stimulus continues.
In fact I would like to see even more stimulus. John Maynard Keynes taught us that the appropriate policy in a recession to stop it turning into a depression is to raise public spending.
The Conservatives plan to reverse all that progress. And it is actually unclear why.
Recessions are not the time to pay off the public debt.
You don't start saving when you are unemployed - that is the time to dip into your savings.
The downside risks to the economy of the Conservative Party's proposals are unacceptably high.
And they have the potential to drive the economy into a depression, the like of which few of us have ever seen before.
That means rapidly rising unemployment, social disorder, rising poverty, falling living standards and even soup kitchens."
Well Well Well.... He's clearly impressed by Dave and George.
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344 SAGA
You have met Robin then?
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rifle @ 350
that got me giggling ... bad news!
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Eatonrifle 349
Blanchflower is a Labour stooge as is Hutton as they always have been always will be. Keynes would never have accepted spending in the good times as Labour have done. He believed in being frugal in good times and spending when times are bad. However we cannot put these strategies into place because Labour over spent in the good times. They built up a year on year deficit in our public sector that would have been a problem even if Government had not created a credit bubble in our banking system.
When there is a crisis in public spending where the Government is having to print money to meet debt, spending has to be cut. Anything but this action will mean that any recovery will be held back. You are merely creating taxes to meet debt no sense in that at all. The outside markets are waiting for a plan to cut debt if they do not get it in the near future our credit rating will be cut and borrowing money will cost more adding to our Government debt. Thus the reason we are not out of recession.
You are wrong in my opinion. These people you are quoting Blanchflower etc are the very people who did not see our credit bubble developing and had the recovery wrong. They believed Browns 'no more boom and bust'. We must cut spending and quickly, Osborne is right. Where Osborne should have a re-think is allowing taxes to increase. Business in the private sector is the only strategy which will get us out of this crisis. High taxes will inhibit recovery.
All those economists who were forecasting a credit bubble and advised cutting back the public sector are the ones earning the money now because they got it right. With Labour will go all these political economists who have backed Labour for rewards.
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352 Susan
I have to give you credit Susan, you are still the most patronizing blogger.
Anyway, You said;
"These people you are quoting Blanchflower etc are the very people who did not see our credit bubble developing and had the recovery wrong."
=============
Can I draw your attention to the Sunday Times of 25 Jan 2009 (hardly a Labour Stooges Paper) which ran the following headline.
"The Bank's professor who got his sums right
Danny Blanchflower saw the recession coming a year ago"
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article5580801.ece
Check it out oh wise one (but obviously you're still right as usual)
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Eatonrifle 353
Eaton we all knew that, there is nothing new in this. Blanchflower did not predict the credit bubble.
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Eatonrifle 353
Because people have a different point of view to you, that makes them patronizing does it?. Why come on here if you want everyone to agree with you.
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Some posts show a worrying LACK of understanding as they miss the point. It is the LABOUR government that promised a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and completely broke its promise. Labour disgracefully agreed to the Treaty without consulting the British people. Now the Treaty has been ratified and is in force, it cannot be undone - so what is the point of having a referendum? It would achieve nothing. It is not Cameron's fault as he only promised a referendum if the Treaty was not in force.
Nick - do you not agree that it would be totally pointless and a waste of time and money to have a referendum on a Treaty that has already been ratified? It is a moot point. Instead, your blog should focus on how the country has arrived in this situation, i.e. the Lisbon Treaty has now been ratified and is coming into force and the Government of the day (Labour) agreed to it on behalf of Britain without consulting the British people - in breach of a very clear promise. Yet another example of Labour's broken promises, lies and deceit. The Government is beyond a joke and enough is enough!!
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sc @ 352
"Where Osborne should have a re-think is allowing taxes to increase"
should you not write and tell him that, Susan, before disaster befalls us all?
or phone him even
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354 Susan said
"Blanchflower did not predict the credit bubble."
Well how about that other Labour Stooge Paper the London Evening Standard.
Under the headline;
"Bye, Danny – the Bank was wrong to ignore you"
Which goes on to say;
"However, rates came down just three times in the year after the Rock fiasco, in December 2007 and in February and April 2008. It triggered the “fiddling while Rome burns” comment that marked the beginning of a very public and at times damaging spat over policy within the Bank of England.
Blanchflower was convinced that problems already blighting his US homeland would soon spread to Britain. A jobs market expert, he warned of rising unemployment and a sharp fall in output, particularly as the UK was more dependent on the financial sector than the US and the bubble in the housing market was dangerously large."
So "the bubble in the housing market (in the uk) was dangerously large" and that of course was fuelled by what you are calling the "credit bubble"
Feel free to back up your own opinion with quotes from Professors of Economics Susan OR alternatively stick to the opinionated patronisation technique you've perfected.
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sagamix 357
Actually, but no, I would not want to disturb George when he is so busy. You know how it is with these types, work night and day just keeping things going. Filling out expense forms and all that.
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Eatonrifle 358
Eatonrifle, just take breath from your ranting and think about what you are saying.
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360 Susan
Laughably weak Susan, even by your standards.
As usual, devoid of anything to "support" you argument.
Wo on try googleing, "Economics Professors support Tories"
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343. At 5:38pm on 04 Nov 2009, TheBlameGame wrote:
"You have to admire the sheer brass neck of GB and Blunkett et al at PMQs with the references to Cameron's 'cast iron promise'.
They've gone beyond hypocrisy... maybe they just don't give a monkey's what the public think of them anymore."
This has been the case for several years at least. You can see it all over their little Nulabour faces. They know its bulls**t, they know that we know its bulls**t, and they couldn't give a damn.
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Eatonrifle 361
Eaton you are such a hot head, you just do not think. Why on earth would I want to google 'support Conservatives'. I do not support anyone, I have my own thoughts. You need to see reports from proper economists not those that are paid by the media and Government.
However let us suppose that what you are saying is correct. Blanchflower is known as a Labour supporting economist, I believe he was even given his job by the Chancellor, which was Brown. The happiness guru as Blanchflower is known because a lot of his work centres around happiness. Why then did Brown not listen to him. Blanchflower cannot have been saying this very loudly can he. But lets suppose Blancflower was predicting the credit bubble, which I know he was not. That means that Brown was not even listening to his own advisors does it not. So what you are saying to me is that Brown was given this advice by Blanchflower and did not take any notice at all. So Brown faced with this knowledge did absolutely nothing about the situation, for his own means. The man who saved the World knew about it much ealier but still carried on with his policies and thus ruined Britain.
As to the BOE everyone knew their policies were wrong, that was common knowledge. King has always followed the Government line, until recently, that was an open secret.
Proper economists out in the real World were predicting this credit bubble for a very long time. They have also said that we would not be out of recession when the Cancellor Darling said we would. Which we are not, Hutton and Blanchflower did not get this right either.
Thats what I meant by think what you are saying.
Now stop running around looking for articles to support your prejudice and try to be fair minded instead, it works better.
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349#
Excellent bit of cutting and pasting mate, but I'm not totally sure what it has got to do with the thread...
And anyway....
If Blanchflower really did see it all coming.... wouldnt it have been somewhat prudent for a man in a position of authority like him to have spoken up about it before it all went to rats**t?
And anyway....
You still appear to have this paranoia that everyone who is against or fed up to the back teeth with NL is somehow automatically a silver-spooned baby eating Tory. Call it a pain reflex, I guess....
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I would certainly have no hesitation in employing Dave as a metallurgist. This concept of a cast iron which is flexible enough to cope with changes in the situation sounds like a sure-fire winner.
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@ saga
Please dont put words in my mouth, I fail to see how anything i ever say could support your bizarre position in life.
It's only Labour I despise (and of course to a lesser degree the undemocratic EU superstate). I have little faith in politicians generally, but this government are the lowest of the low, I would put them somewhere on par with pond weed.
I dont despise Cameron, I had hopes for him and I'm sure he'll still end up PM, unfortunately I think he has made a rookie error. After Labour this country is crying out for honesty & integrity and what is morally right rather than "within the rules". That is why he should still have given us a referendum, with additional questions and been clear on the countrys wishes regarding Europe.
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@ blindside 304
And worse than that when Lisbon reached the Lords the limp dems actually voted for it! I blame Clegg as much as Brown for forcing us into Lisbon
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Slow day at Labour HQ yesterday by any chance? Mike Naylor had far too much time on his hands again, cant anyone find something useful to do?!
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What are we to make of the backbone or otherwise of a Prime Minister of this country who stoops to setting up a personally flawed failed former Home Secretary to ask a question at PMQs Wednesday 4th November designed to score political points against Cameron on the matter of a Lisbon referendum. Brown and Blunkett would be fully aware of course of the compromised situation Cameron had found himself in.How barmy is it that anachronostic parliamentary protocol prevented Cameron from defending himself at that time?If however,Brown thinks that the British people can be taken in by his puerile behaviour and that the majority of us will conveniently forget that under both Blair and himself with Mandelson lurking in the background,New Labour thrice denied the British electorate the formerly promised democratic right to a referendum provided by the likes of Ireland for its electorate(including the unhealthy, undemocratic way that the Irish were stripped of their first choice like a prospective drunk being administered a second breathalyzer because the selfish police officer didn't like the fact that the first demonstrated an answer he didn't wish for)then Brown is mistaken.Besides that, I believe the British people were denied their right to a referendum as a feature of the agreement Mandelson brokered between Blair and Brown on the transition,again undemocratic, of the New Labour Party leadership and hence the unelected elevation of Brown to the PMship and subsequently it was hoped by them the future unelected elevation of Blair to the European Presidency.It has been no coincidence in my book that Blair having gone against the teaching of the Christian community on so many of his policies,including imposing on us the idea that consenting sex between same gender adults was something efficacious for our children to look forward to,including debasing the sanctity of marriage between man and woman,including using abortion as a means of reaching Government targets to decrease the incidences of teenage pregnancy and so on should then seek after retirement from his position as Prime Minister the consolation of membership of the very Roman Catholic Church that most espoused its condemnation of the evil Blair clearly seemed to believe in. Would it be posssible that courting the popularity of the Catholic countries in Europe was seen by Blair as a sensible strategy towards his European ambitions? What is even more disturbing to me is the eagerness with which the same church opened its arms to Blair's duplicity and hypocrisy.IN short,is it possible at all to be an honest man and be successful in politics. The answer in my opinion is yes it probably is possible but we are presently a million miles away it seems to me from finding out for certain.
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