Is all publicity good publicity?
This week will put that old maxim to the test. The British National Party are getting more publicity than they can have dreamed of, culminating in a controversial appearance for Nick Griffin on Question Time.
Many will be deeply uncomfortable with this. Others argue that it is the inevitable consequence of the BNP's electoral - albeit limited - success. What's more, one senior Tory argues, the BNP leader's linking of two distinguished former generals with Nazi war criminals shows the value of exposing the party's arguments.
Until recently, most mainstream politicians have gone out of their way to avoid even talking about the BNP in order to deny them the oxygen of publicity. Ever so quietly behind the scenes, all the mainstream parties co-operated to try to head off the threat from the BNP - sharing intelligence about them and working to ensure that they faced proper opposition wherever they stood.
Then a number of Labour politicians who saw the party's rise in their areas - Margaret Hodge in Barking and Jon Cruddas in Dagenham - abandoned that approach and tried to force their own party to address the anxieties of white working-class voters who they feared were defecting. Some used anti-BNP campaigns to rally Labour activists who were otherwise reluctant to campaign for their party.
Now Conservatives are reacting to fears that the BNP is successfully hijacking traditional symbols of patriotism - the flag, the Spitfire and the poppy. Hence the campaign organised by two well-connected Tory activists which shot to prominence yesterday when a group of senior military figures joined the fray.
This week may mark an important shift in the way in which the other parties handle the threat from the British National Party, though all will be watching with some trepidation the opinion polls that follow.
It is worth remembering that the party remains a very small force. As I wrote after the European elections, the BNP's two MEPs were elected on a smaller share of the vote. They have just a few dozen councillors. However, the big parties now sense that they are a force that can no longer be ignored.
Update, 16:10: Earlier I pointed out that Nick Griffin became a member of the European Parliament even though he won fewer votes than he did five years ago.
He got 132,194 votes whereas five years earlier the BNP in north-west England had polled 134,959 votes. Griffin won because of a collapse in the Labour vote from 576,388 in 2004 to 336,831 in 2009.
However, lest this has led some to wonder what all the fuss is about, I should point out that nationwide the BNP's vote share went up 1.3% to over 6% and its total number of votes went up more than 16% to a figure not far shy of a million (943,598 to be precise).
In the nine regions of Great Britain where the BNP did not win a seat, its total vote went up by more than a quarter - 26.5% to be precise.
(Thanks to the European Movement for pointing this out.)
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I think it's a mistake having Griffin on QT, he's likely to come over quite well in the current anti Establishment environment - course we'd like to think he'll be exposed for what he is but I'm not so sure that will happen - I am, however, looking forward to the programme despite myself
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I for one am really looking forward to seeing them on their, the quickest way to expose them for what they are as a bunch of racists is to point of the weaknesses in their arguments and let them hang themselves.
That being said they wouldn't even be getting this level of "success?" if labour hadn't forgotten that its core voters were the white working class and now they've effectively pushed a sizable portion of their voters to them. This will be the death of labour abandoning those that put them in power, and the electorate will not soon forget it.
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It's amusing to see the desperate measures being taken by the establishment parties as the BNP takes votes from them. First labour uses proxies to bring court cases then the tories use elderly military administrators to castigate them.
If they want 1 million people to stop voting for a tiny party with no serious policies and no hope of governing - here's an alternative idea....
Why not address the legitimate concerns of those voters?
They could start by just acknowledging their concerns or even allowing people to express those concerns without any threats.
(OOPS! I hear Cameron is proposing all ethnic shortlists - that should be worth another few thousand votes for the BNP)
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Saga whether we like it or not they do represent at least some of us now and are entitled to their say. I'm unsure as to how he will appear although I'm hoping negatively.
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Publicity is publicity like discrimination good or bad is an oxymoron.
All we can do is ensure a balance.
Because of the love of the negative in the media we give to much air time and to much linage to the nasty the indecent and the pathetic who pray on others insecurity like NG.
Yes expose the fowl and dreadful aspects of this mob but don’t give them endless space and time. That will make these little squirts feel important good or bad press.
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I havnt checked the line up, but i hope Ian Heslop is on the panel, as he would be one of the few politisians / cometators that could hold a dierec argument with the BMP policies.
Just one thought is Griffin or Norman, Celtic, Roman, Viking or Saxon descent? He is opposed to all the european migrents but practically every one he would call "British" is of european descent.
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Tough on the BNP and tough on the causes of the BNP should be the strap line of mainstream political parties. Letting them get away with their deliberately confusing talk on ethnicity and britishness as the recent Newsbeat interviews did only helps their cause. Politicians need to be much better briefed on what these political bandits are up to. But there needs to be a better response to the reasons for their popularity with large section of the disaffected working class particularly in areas where there is wide ethnic diversity and serious deprivation.
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The rise of the BNP can be squarely laid at the door of New Labour
over the last 12 years, and the media for closing of the debate.
the have left a percentage of people no option but to vote BNP as they will not vote tory and that an interseting fact. The BNP as doing well in labour heart lands.
It is the shame of the last 12 years that it has allowed the BNP to rise and the roots of the problems lies with the media and new labour
Is all publicity good publicity.
Thats interesting when the media tries to close down all level of debate
of many issues. Sometimes when the media refuses legitimate debate.
Sometimes outrageous stunts are required re action of the super hero groups fathers 4 justices as there become no alterantive as MP's and the media refuses to recognise that there was even an issue to discuss. But tragedly Bady P died as a result of there dead, dumb and blindness to the situation.
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We live in a democracy and if we are true to that then they have a voice and if people vote for that voice then they have the keys to power. The Government is in disarray over every aspect of governing and driving voters away in every direction. Personally I can't stand the BNP but have heard middle class people express more than toleration of their ideas and rhetoric. The more airtime they have the more slicker they will become and the more their message will be honed to suit the electorate. Recent exposure have shown they're a way off that though.
A general election now would end all this and give us a new start. The BNP would recede back into obscurity until the next depression and the countries mood would lift.
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I`m white and working class and from a Lancs mill town,one were there were race riots.What do I have in common with a tory toff/s from Eton or the liebour lot who have let anyone and everyone in the UK,Libs well.Who else does that leave,BNP.They are on a role.
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Griffin is proving that he has no understanding of international law: the current action in Afghanistan is under UN mandate. He also repeatedly proves that he has no understanding on history: the fact that the spitfire in his 'battle of Britain' poster has a polish chequerboard on its engine cowling should say all that needs to be said about who fought WW2. The RAF in the battle of britain contained Poles, Czechs, Norwegians, French, Rhodesians, Canadians and two Jews. El Alamein (another of his favourite topics) was fought primarily by Scots, Indians, Aussies, Greeks and Northumbrians (my grandfather was there.. I doubt if Griffins was).
Unfortunately too many of the British electorate are pig-ignorant and believe anything they hear if it suits their prejudices.
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If we are happy to let deluded romantic fantasists humiliate themselves for the public entertainment on X factor, why not on Question Time ?
Haven't the abc's the same entitlement to toe curling entertainment as the c2de's ?
I doubt QT is the preferred viewing of BNP's target audience. However the spectacle of watching Griffin frot himself into a vainglorious lather should be enough to put many voters off for good
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Another comment "referred to moderators".White genocide is a reality.It is happening right in front of our eyes.Only the BNP are speaking up about it.They`ve got my vote.For life.
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The fact that other parties are trying to silence a minority voice makes them no better than the BNP.
Rational people are unlikely to vote for them so why is there such a furore?
Censorship and biggotry go hand in hand, it breeds discontent and hatred.
There will be a backlash if they try to prevent this, it is irrelevant that the government and other parties disagree with alternative viewpoints, the simplest fact that the governemnt are legislating against free speech and opinion is an attack on all our freedoms.
Let them have their say, let us make up our own minds. The only way BNP will benefit from this is if their argument is more convincing than others and if that is the case than maybe the other parties don't have the right people or ideas.
BTW I totally disagree with the BNP policies.
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Stable door.
Horse.
++sound of fading hooves, galloping into the distant sunset.... and the sound of the now empty stable's door banging in the evening autumn breeze...++
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12. At 09:15am on 21 Oct 2009, Peter_Sym wrote: Griffin is proving that he has no understanding of international law: the current action in Afghanistan is under UN mandate.
So was the starving of Iraqi children under the sanctions regime of the 90`s.
So was the stealing of Palestinian land when the bandit state of Israel was created.
The United Nations is a bad,some might say murderous,joke.
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All short lists are 'all ethnic' shortlists as we all have an ethnic origin! The BNP have no real policies that are not based on race and they would not be able to run the country. I hope that on QT the questions are restricted to the other things going on in the country such as bank regulation comments made by the governor of the Bank of England. This will hopefully show Griffin up as the one trick propaganda pony that he is.
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Every establishment needs a thorn in its side and Griffin is it.
The big problem is that Griffin provides a very thin layer of respectability to his party. He’s also the only voice opposing mass immigration which appeals to many.
Attacking him is hard work especially when the incumbents are mortally wounded and have been discredited on almost every front.
He will, almost certainly come across well on QT. Especially in these times where main stream politicians are held in such low regard.
If you want to hit this party hard you have to throw some light into the murky corners where Griffins lieutenants lurk.
EG:
Lee Barnes, the BNP's senior legal officer and one of Griffin's closest allies, posted a video on his blog of a black suspect being beaten by police in the US and described it as "brilliant". He adds: "The beating of Rodney King still makes me laugh."
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I am voting for the BNP, even though some of their policies could negatively affect my life - I'm gay and married to an asian, and the BNP want to get rid of civil partnerships and "inter-racial" marriages.
My partner will also be voting for them. One doesn't have to agree with everything a party says in order to vote for it. No party has every provided me with everything I want. My partner has no fear of forced deportation because that is not the BNP policy.
Why will be voting BNP? Because like the other 600,000 voters the BNP have acquired in the last 4 years, we are more worried about the failure of successive governments to stem the rise of islam in Europe than we are about losing some of our own civil rights.
Am I racist? Is my asian husband racist? Islam is not a race - there are white muslims. Once the BNP change their constitution, both my partner and I will become paid up members. As will many more people. The BNP's talk about "race" is foolish. And it will end. They can be nationalists and anti-immigration without using that idiotic concept.
All the people posting here saying the BNP have no sense of history should start reading some of the many books published in the last 5 years on the history of islam and the rise of islam in Europe. Then they will see that this is the number one political issue of our generation. That's why Geert Wilders party is the leading party in the Netherlands.
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Whatever you might think of the BNP, the only reason they have a voice and an audience at all these days is because none of the political parties have listened to the public on certain issues, instead choosing to ignore them or smear anyone who raises them.
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"the big parties now sense that they are a force that can no longer be ignored."
It is true it is because the BNP was nourished by the actions and inactions of the main parties, especially the Labour government and its former and present PMs - Blair and Brown.
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If the truth be told, the BNP are attempting to fill the gap left by Labour and in particular their inability to control immigration in a meaningful way. I am no BNP supporter but there are lots out there that agree with their policies on tightening up on immigration.
Don't dismiss the idea that it won't happen here, the conditions are "Perfect" especially when you add in the massive cuts in public services that WILL happen from next year. Note it was the depression in the 1930's that enabled the Nazi party in Germany to expand exponentially.
The government has not been honest with the general public on "Where we are" and this deceit will fuel the perception that politicians are dishonest. If the BNP do gain support it will be due to the inabilities and ideologies of the current Labour leaders.
Gordon Brown and his colleagues have a lot to answer ...
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#9 Doctorbreezy
I'm nothing like as optimistic as you.
"A general election would end all this and give us a new start?" A new Government, almost certainly, but that, in itself, would do nothing to address the economic hole we've dug for ourselves. Any new Government will have to address these issues and the necessary measures are unlikely to lift the mood.
"The next depression?" We've not even started this one yet - wait until after the election.
"The BNP would recede?" The BNP is strengthened by the economic downturn because its ideology reaches out to the disaffected. It was ever thus - just look at Germany in the 1930s. Then read the economic commentators comparing the current recession with the 1930s.
If we do end up in a prolonged depression, double-dip recession, W-shaped depression (or whatever)then people will be looking for someone to blame. Step up the obvious scapegoats. Far, from receding, the nationalism visible in the BNP (where the focus is on race)and in UKIP (where the focus is on the EU) may come to dominate the political debate.
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I doubt that the BNP would have had as much publicity if Griffin had won the lottery. He will appear on QT there is not a lot of doubt about that. Hopefully the audience will not shout him down but leave him to make a fool of himself.
I now feel that this subject is a bit like fish it starts to smell after 2 days.
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Have to agree with Sagamix. He should never have been given the platform. The anti-establishment line is a clear reason they have got the publicity but I think there are some sympathies with the British jobs first line that some misguided voters have picked up on while not caring about or ignorant of the consequences of voting in a largely racist party.
Its a shame that Bernie Grant is no longer around as I would have loved to see him sitting next to Griffin. To me only black politicians really understand and feel the consequences of increased BNP exposure. And its they who will get to the heart of the matter most directly. Maybe one of the retired generals may provide an interesting foil.
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The racist nature of the BNP is not acceptable to the vast majority of people in this country. However the main parties need to recognise there is a serious disconnect between the views and wishes of vast numbers of voters and the policies they are promoting. The BNP are playing to concerns on the rapid changes in the cultural makeup of this country that are not universally supported, the concerns over the EU and the Governments handling of the Lisbon Treaty, the numbers of migrant workers at a time of rising unemployment, and above all the present Westminster crisis of confidence over expenses, all of which play into the BNP's hands. All the main parties berate Mr Griffin, the media rightly give him a hard time on some of his more distasteful views but there is a real risk of generating public sympathy for an underdog if he is treated differently to other elected polititians with views that many dislike. The reality is a 6% share at the EU MEP elections from the votes of around one million people does give him the right to be heard. This is still a democracy (just).
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Missing the point a bit, other than creating a bit of a mess as to who is 'British' and who should stay (these are questions never explained either) as a political party what are there answers to the rest of political questions?
It is all well having a Big Answer but...............
And the media show them, the members or those that support the party are lazy and workshy so who would do all the work in the new Britain with most of the workers sent 'home'????
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Firstly, I am glad Hain didn't get his way as he just wants to stifle anything he disagrees with - free speech should be just that. What a shame he didn't stay in South Africa to enrich its politics rather than come here.
Secondly, I do hope that the other QT guests don't do what they did last week and make remarks like "that vile man" etc type of personal insults. If you don't like his views, argue your case rationally and calmly, don't resort to personal insult as that (just as shouting and fighting) will rebound on the perpetrator and result in Nick Griffin getting sympathy. He and his party should be judged on what they say and do.
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22.uk-anti-racist
Very very funny post, and its your first one too!!!! look forward to hearing more.
ROFL
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Nick Griffin and everything the BNP stand for is abhorant, that said Nick Griffin does either for his own ends or real purposes make some valid comments that need to be addressed by the main parties that the white majority do feel locked out, thats why you have the growth of the BNP and to a lesser extent UKIP and the English Defence League, I live in a multi - cultural area of the West Midlands where by and large people of every background appear to get on, that said two new mosques are going to be built one on Dudley and one in Lye which I know certain members of the English community are not happy about and in a way understandably so, as many people in the host community see the country changing in events as described above and they dont like it, its not about being racist, the British people are tolerant of all I feel, however, people see alien cultures coming into their neighbourhood and living their lives as if still back in the home country instead of 'when in Rome do as the Romans do' and this worries and upsets certain sections if not all of the host community and the main parties with multi - culturism and political correctness have ridden rough shod over any member of the host community who has even spoken out about once British areas becoming ghettos for Muslims or whoever and labelled them as racist and while some of those who speak out maybe genuinely racist others are concerned we as a people the English people more so than anyone else are losing our culture and even they are called racist so it is no wonder the English Defence League emerge and the BNP and UKIP fill the void because the other parties are terrified of talking of race and immigration.
Take the interviews of Gordon Brown, David Cameron and Nick Clegg when they were talking of ethnic representation in the house of commons, all they spoke about was Black and Asian representation in the house, what about other races and nationalities who have made their home here, how many Chinese faces do you see in the house of commons or how many Poles or Greeks, why is it always Blacks and Asians, you'd think no other nationalities or races lived here only those just mentioned and if theres more white faces in parliament thats because for the foreseeable white people are the majority thats why I disagree absoloutely with positive discrimination, merit is the only way to achieve or get somewhere and if white faces make it through more than anyone else well thats not necessarily racism its because whites are the majority race here.
Anyhow I diverge, unless the main parties address the issues brought forward by concerned not always racist white people the extremist parties are going to get more popular whether we like it or not.
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I find it a joke that four army generals should complain about a piece of kit that was used by the RAF, being used by the BNP and an emblem.
But is the Supermarine Spitfire a military emblem only? Surely this plane is an emblem of British design and manufacturing; something that all Labour and Conservative governments have done their best to run down in the last thirty or forty years. And it's the BNP that promises to build up again these missing elements of the UK's industry. So what's wrong with a party reminding us that we could be in the forefront of manufacuring again, and reminding us we once could do it?
As for the use of Winston Churchill, could any body deny that, by today's standards, he was not an out and out racist? This man did not even give India or the rest of the Empire their freedom. And a lot of national servicemen were conscripted into the army to fight to hang on to our empire, all under Labour and Conservative governments. I would have thought Churchill, and perhaps Atlee would very appropriate emblems for the BNP.
But as a BNP voter, I have to say that Nick Griffin hasn't handled himself too well under this intense media spotlight. But don't be too happy about that, all you anti-BNPers, the party just might elect a leader without Griffin's past history, who might have a bit of charisma - then you realy would have something to worry about.
And could we have some focus from the BBC on the Tories behind the generals? What's their pedigree?
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22. uk-anti-racist wrote:
"That's why Geert Wilders party is the leading party in the Netherlands."
More holes in your post than Liverpool's defence.
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I am 45 year old white English male working in law enforcement and have seen some very uncomfortable changes come to England in recent years. Sadly, much of this I attribute to the Labour governments open door policy on allowing MILLIONS of immigrants into this country, both legal and illegal.
Frankly, I am disgusted by labours complete disregard for the wishes and concerns of the white British citizens in thier own country. Do any of Labours high end politicians actually have any idea of where this country is heading ?
I see it every day. Schools which were mainly white, now out numbered by non English speaking immigrants. It is an outrage. People have rightly had enough and hold a very real concern for what kind of country OUR children may have to live in.
So to Nick Griffin. Duly elected MEP. He has every right to appear on Question time and express his and OUR concerns over what immigration is doing to Britain. Like it or not, the time has come where this most critical issue MUST be aired and dealt with.
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Around a million people voted for the BNP at the euro elections. A million!
You write that off at your own peril. there are clearly issues in this country that are not being addressed. It can no longer be the case that the argument about immigration is simply if you are against it you are a racist. I doubt that the labour party has the moral strength to deal with this, I hope the Tories do.
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Many people seem to be worried about giving the BNP the "oxygen of publicity".
Remember: oxygen is a disinfectant and a cleansing agent, and deadly to many primative and slimy forms of life.
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Let's face it Democracy died out in 505 BC with Cleisthenes! This whole thing is a charade, people vote for Labour and the CON servatives and do not agree with all their policies and so it is that peoiple vote for the BNP. If the mainstream parties are so concerned by the BNP why haven't they donbe anything to address the worries of those that choose to vote for them?? I live in a so called free society (joke!) we must at all times have free open debate, not sections of society dictating what we debate, how, when and by whome. It is totally undemocratic to deny nearly a million supprters of the BNP the rightfor their party to be seen and engage in debate. Most people who vote BNP are decent and have genuine concerns, which aren't being addressed by Labour, Conservative or Liberal Democrats. If as everybody says the BNP are toally racist then they have nothing to fear as this will come out in open debate.
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I became a member of the BNP two years ago after voting Tory all my adult life (25 years). I am surprised at the high number of assumptions that this forums members have that BNP supporters are 'working class' and come from deprived areas that have been failed by Labour. I would describe myself as a successful business woman, living in the home counties and on a well above average salary.
Prior to joining the BNP I undertook a significant amount of research which included attending meetings held in my local area. Taking note of media hype I was expecting skin heads and generally thuggish people. What I encountered was an elderly audience and people just like me that are generally disillusioned with the direction this country is being lead.
It is impossible to agree with the policies of every party, but I do feel the BNP have polices that meet some of my concerns, for example reform of the welfare state and the NHS. This is not about immigration or foreigners taking advantage of both systems, this includes ALL culprits of the benefit culture no matter what the colour of their skin is. If you have time try reading the policies in full on their website. They may appear to some as being extreme, but maybe that is what is needed to bring this country back in to the forefront of the worlds communities and a deterrent to those souls stranded in northern France trying to obtain illegal entry in to the UK?
It’s just a thought.....
(My previous work includes 12 months working on Channel crossings. Experience in locating illegal immigrants and ensuring UK Boarder Agency personnel treat them humanely which encompassed a hot meal and drink, plus the use of washroom facilities.)
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united_dreamer & sagamix
It’s a very slipper slope when the institutions like the BBC and for that matter you two decide which democratically elected party (with 6% of the EU vote) get air time and which ones don’t.
Bernie Grant… is that the same… Bernie Grant who said “What the police got was a bloody good hiding" after the death of PC Blakelock and the burning of Tottenham
You just keep chucking material like that to Nick Griffin, very smart..
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"But is the Supermarine Spitfire a military emblem only? Surely this plane is an emblem of British design and manufacturing; something that all Labour and Conservative governments have done their best to run down in the last thirty or forty years."
Total rubbish - its clearly a throwback to the spirit that won the war for us against fascists - connecting it to the plane itself is absurd in the extreme. Churchill might well have been racist like many politicians of the time as Britain were still a colonial power then but they didn't make a party based on those principles. That WAS one of the central tenets of the Nazi party who Churchill opposed. That's one of the reasons why the generals are so genuinely upset because it denigrates the struggle of many who lost their lives defending a democratic Britain.
At #22. Its all a very theoretical argument for the likes of you missing entirely the practical consequences of increased racist attacks in the areas that BNP representatives get voted in. I guess that is a price worth paying - although its unlikely that you will be paying it.
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At #38 - I think I saw a red ballon in there as well.
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I never watch QT anyway with all its predictable grandstanding and I wont be bothering this week either. It is an entertainment programme not a serious current affairs programme and has booked Griffin as a 'star turn' to up its ratings. He will not be held to account in any way and will relish all the coverage this week.
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gets lonely sometimes in this big old place ... just me and Mother ... and so I often sit around doing not very much, just generally thinking about stuff - today, I'm thinking about the BNP ... in particular the 3 alternative strategies being put forward for dealing with them:
(1) ban
(2) ignore
(1) is my preferred option but, okay, it's a bit illiberal so let's forget it for now - (2) is the consensus but it doesn't seem to be working too well, let's put that on ice too - leaves just the third
which is ...
(3) address the concerns of their supporters
okay fair enough, let's DO that
so what we need is to adopt (inter alia) the following policies:
- shut the borders
- pull out of Europe
- put whites to the front of every queue
- deport undesirables
- roll back political correctness
- introduce flogging for petty criminals
- bring back hanging for the others
I got this far and then I had to stop - hang on a second, I said to myself, is that "addressing their concerns" or is that more in the way of pandering to stupendous ignorance?
back to square one
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I see that sagamix and Peter Hain have shown their true newlabour bully boy colours; attempting to deny free speech ina democracy.
This is the utter hypocrisy of the newlabour lie; that the party that calls itself 'progressive' is denying the right to free speech, putting its placement throughout government is supposedly non political posts and ignoring the evidence of independent review bodies when placing its friends in high office.
There is nothing progressive about whatever it is that remains of newlabour, its apologists, or sagamix. There is simply an exhausted rabble of politicval hacks trying desperately to cling on to power ans ram their supporters into jobs before they are driven form power for good.
I may not agree with Nick Griffin but he is the appointed representative of a legitimate party with a million people who have voted for it. This is a democracy. He appears on Question Time. QED.
Newlabour's pathetic attempts to pull the racist card yet again (my how dog eared that card is) have fallen on their face yet again and this is why they are haemoraging support; some of it to the BNP. Nobody cares about their meaningless agenda and target driven politics. It's tired old rhetoric
Call an election.
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#3.
Jon112UK - an excellent post.
I was going to say exactly the same points as you have made. It's a good job that I read the discussion thread and your comment in particular first!
I couldn't have said it better than you have. Well done.
In general:
I'll also add that I think that we still live in a democracy and therefore the BNP party MUST BE ALLOWED to have a voice. I vehemently disagree with their policies and what they stand for but I think it is VERY important to have extreme Left and Right Wing parties, if only to cause the "more sensible" parties to be more alert to the concerns of the electorate. It is no use trying to suppress extremist parties, just because the policies of the "centre-ground" parties aren't attractive or just because no attractive new ideas/policies can be found.
If the BNP come across as more attractive during Question Time than the other parties then that will be because the other parties are not selling their ideas well enough or because those parties don't have and policies to woo or to keep voters.
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From the previous BBC blog:
"Their [the left's] rage at Griffin is the rage of Caliban at his image in the mirror."
Of course this is somewhat unfair since the Labour Party is not a racialist party. However, it contains a certain amount of truth.
The Labour Party and the BNP share a belief in the efficacy of the State. The State must be strong, and the individual must be weak. Individuals must be put into social classes and racial groups and judged accordingly. Both the BNP and Labour can loosely be called 'socialist', though to gain election Labour tends to hide its socialist tradition.
Both Labour and the BNP despise the classical liberal tradition of, for example, free speech.
Returning to Caliban, I noticed a BNP supporter on the previous blog use the 'Tory toff' phrase. In this regard the BNP and Labour are like identical twins.
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I feel the political establishment are in a state of moral panic over the apparent `rise' of the BNP. There has been little improvement in the BNP vote but a massive collapse in the traditional Labour vote. So I would suggest they are all looking down the wrong end of the telescope.
Given that historically the BBC has given other small parties such as the Greens a hearing then they cannot now exclude the BNP. I always found it odd that people mumbled into their beards and shook their heads over the BNP rather than confront the issues that provide legitimacy to the BNP offer: immigration, white flight, poor education, poor and insufficient social housing and the list goes on.
It is my view that for at least the last twenty years our society and economy has been distorted to alleviate the interests of a numerical minority of apparatchiks, lawyers, bankers and other suckers from the taxpayer teat that the white working class have been allowed to drop through the cracks in the floor in terms of opportunities, training and social improvement.
The history of the Weimar Republic demonstrates that Fascism or National Socialism can follow on from popular disillusion with social democracy. Given that New Labour has foolishly destroyed the social-democracy Old Labour erected in the first place we now face this difficulty.
As I have said before you will not deal with the BNP in the debating chamber, you can only deal with it on the ground with effective social and economic policies: the very things that have been rather missing these last few years and the very thing we now have no money or means with which to tackle it.
The big question to me is are the ambitious children of the apparat going to devote their energies to campaigning in the mean streets of decaying neighbourhoods to improve the lot of the common people, or are they going to follow Mummy & Daddy into overpaid jobs within the elite? I know the answer to that and expect that finding the solution to these issues will be left to us old campaigners who in loving what we know and knowing what we love will struggle on the ground with this new Nazism the political elite has made possible. I hear my parent's and grandparent's generations spinning in their graves.
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#44 well cherry picked - re Bernie Grant I was thinking more from the perspective that Griffin would be genuinely fearful of voicing his ignorant comments. These people are very brave in voicing their stupidity in environments where they are protected, less so when there are people diametrically opposed to their views. Re: the Blakelock killing Grant was voicing the exasperation of a community routinely persecuted including deaths in custody. What he said was wrong clearly but he was clearly emotional about the real underlying issues and with heart on sleeve voiced it. Seems that Griffin saying that sinking boats carrying economic migrants is ok though. To you.
Again you miss the very real consequence of voting in BNP. Racist attacks go up markedly in the areas they get elected after they get elected. Statistics prove this. On top of that their very membership policy exludes non-white people. They are not even a legally constituted party. As I said to #22 - you argue from a theoretical standpoint where the consequences are largely academic.
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"united_dreamer wrote:
That's one of the reasons why the generals are so genuinely upset because it denigrates the struggle of many who lost their lives defending a democratic Britain."
The ironic thing is that under a democratic system a party like the BNP should be allowed to exist (and be heard).
It is up to the other parties to point out exactly why voting for the BNP is not a good idea rather than brushing issues under the carpet.
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The media appears to be the frothing at the mouth ranters at the moment.
With knickers in a twist , the Times , Guardian and Telegraph have been subjecting their readers to a barrage of "BAD" "RACIST" THUGS""SHUT 'EM UP" " BAN THEM" and trembly lipped " Nick Griffin would send me back to ...." headlines, while ALL proclaiming their belief in free speech.
These same papers have been incredibly lacking in diligence in other ways BUT give them a BNP article and boy! do they show unattractive colours!
The Guardian even had the cheek to bleat about Carter Ruck trying to stifle a story, denying them freedom of speech! And they don't even notice the irony!
Opinionated journalists are getting on my nerves!
I am sick and tired of being told what to think by those assuming superiority.
I am beyond caring what the Westminster cosy coven thinks I should think!
I doubt that I will watch QT .It has become an exercise in BBBC manipulation which constrains debate .
An agenda set by the BBBC, orchestrated by the BBBC for the benefit of the luvvies and Westminster bubble dwellers and of little interest to the man in the street.
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Sagamix #48. Again, on the money.
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What I've yet to see explained is why the BBC felt the need to invite the BNP onto Question Time. Okay, so both Caroline Lucas of the Greens and Nigel Farage of UKIP have appeared several times, both of whose parties have no MPs and, up until recently, had merely a handful of MEPs; but where does it say that the BBC is legally obliged to invite representatives of all parties with one or more elected parliamentarians onto Question Time? I can't recall seeing any members of the DUP on the panel, for example, and they're the fourth largest party in the UK parliament. In fact, the BNP (and UKIP and the Greens, for that matter), have less MPs than each of the following, none of whom are ever on Question Time: DUP, Sinn Fein, SDLP, Ulster Unionists, and even Health Concern.
There were no voices calling out for the BNP to be invited onto the programme, so why did the BBC take the "initiative", so to speak, and invite them on? Were the BNP preparing legal proceedings to try and claim that the BBC was illegally censoring a democratically-elected party, or did the BBC just think this would stir up a good bit of controversy and lead to a ratings-winning episode of QT? Perhaps the producers of QT think they are doing the country a favour by trying to expose the BNP's failings.
Who knows the true reasons behind this? Well, someone must do. Unfortunately, they remain strangely silent...
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"deport undesirables"
Actually on #48 - that is one policy I agree on. Who would take Nick Griffin though?
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There are serious concerns that many people share, such as (a) the loss of control of the borders over recent years, meaning that large numbers of people have arrived without the consent of the established population and against their preference, and (b) multiculturalism, meaning that many new arrivals are not absorbed into the mainstream culture. Specifically, the Government has allowed fundamentalist Muslims to be the public face of British Muslims.
I was born in London when the city was overwhelmingly white. I much prefer the city today, but sometimes miss aspects of how life used to be. I am not allowed to say this for fear of being branded a racist. Frankly, I don’t see why I should ‘celebrate’ the arrival of some of the migrants who have little to offer and merely knock me down the housing list. Also, I wonder why we should give permanent residency or citizenship to people who have come here to work for their own interests, and whose own countries do not offer British citizens the same rights.
The BNP is the heir of the British Union of Fascists and is opposed to the basic values of this country. As Winston Churchill said, we are a mongrel “race”. This openness to the world has always been our strength. However, as polite people are not allowed to express real concerns, the BNP can become a lightening rod for decent peoples’ legitimate concern. As with Islamic fundamentalism, the BNP’s nonsense gives many excluded people are narrative to understand their lives, and a direction.
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uk-anti-racist:
"I'm gay and married to an asian..."
--------------
Same here.
"...we are more worried about the failure of successive governments to stem the rise of islam in Europe"
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Islam is a perfectly legitimate religion or belief system. You obviously don't hold freedom of belief (and expression) in very high regard if you think governments should be trying to "stem" it. In that sense, it's easy to see why the BNP might appeal to you.
By all means stem extremism, stem criminality, counter backwards attitudes to homosexuality and people of different colours and beliefs to ourselves - but then that's what us opponents of the BNP have been doing for donkey's years.
And that's the funny thing. When it comes to freedom of belief and expression, the BNP have more in common with extremist Islam than their adherents ever care to admit. It's one of the great ironies of our time.
Personally, I just wish both nasty sects of this right-wing (BNP supporters and Islamists) could be bundled off somewhere, leaving us progressives - Muslim and non-Muslim - to get on with living sensibly and maturely.
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"sagamix wrote:
(3) address the concerns of their supporters
okay fair enough, let's DO that
so what we need is to adopt (inter alia) the following policies:"
Addressing the issues doesn't mean we have to adopt the BNP policies (although Labour have adopted several of the BNP's slogans!)
If we address people's concerns we can determine why these issues are important to them (e.g. the cases where there is highly skilled labour locally but foreign contractors decide to use non-union workers from their own country which lead to strikes last year)
If we ignore the issues the BNP will appear to be the only party that cares about these concerns.
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Banking balls post 37
You and thousands of other just don’t get it do you.
We can not compete in manufacturing in the world market while India China and half the worlds population work for a dollar a day we are not competitive, we are out priced and while we get credit to buy all the goods we need and twice as many we don’t then it wont change.
In addition unless we help them to become well off and start being consumers them selves there is little chance for us to supply and sell anything other than very specialist niche product eventually we could restore production but in a global economy the production of commodities will always follow the cheapest labour.
Of course we can close our borders but that will put an end to cheap holidays abroad and is also an end to low cost products and services and I am not entirely sure we have enough land and sea fish stocks any more to sustain our appetites.
Wakeup to reality Henry VIII new the Nation state was finished you have to be a world player. That means diplomacy tolerance and harmony.
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#49 - around about the age of the post number:)
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Since when did the military own the poppy, the Union Jack and images of the Spitfire?
THEY have cynically used these images to send 17-y-o kids (some leaving my village this week)to kill foreigners in my name - and all because their political masters have failed in THEIR jobs.
As objectionable as the policies of the BNP are to most people, they are not responsible for making my children and my grandchildren terrorist targets - nor have they colluded in the bombing of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I am deeply disturbed at this sinister and co-ordinated attack on a fringe political party by the political establishment. Perhaps the Tories are seeking to bury the news that they are likely to ban men from attempting to become Tory MP's - so discriminating against 50% of the population on grounds of sex. Surely that's illegal.
I wonder what Churchill would have made of THAT?
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Let us all not forget that it is New Labour who lied to Parliament to get us into a war as Americas poodle, Labours lies led to the deaths of over 600,000 Innocent Iraqi Civilians plus hundreds of British troops. The BNP did not commit these criminal acts Labour and the generals did.
Do not forget that these four generals allowed our troops to be deployed in an illegal war with not enough body armour, boots that melted, not enough rations, vehicle spares,helicopters and defective radios etc Hardly the glowing reports of great miltary leaders.
Ref the comments about fascists, the largest group of people following accepted fascist doctrine in the UK of late is the Anti Nazi League / United against fascists/ SWP who object to free and open democratic elections, demand the banning of parties they disagree with, they nearly always resort to violence, threats and intimidation to disrupt elections and political raalies. These ANL/UAF types were clearly blamed by West Yorks police for inciting the race riots their and recently they were well documented attacking the police in Manchester..
Please do not forget that these far left violent anti democracy, law breaking thugs are funded by the trade unions and supported by both labour and tory MPS.
The BNP has some good policies and bad policies, but they are democratic, will debate openly and face the wrath of the public in elections. As for the Tories and Labour neither party will ever be common bedfellows with honesty or morality, and as for the immigration issue and the promises by the big parties to deal with it, the BBC annouced on the news this AM that the population of the UK is going to rise by 4 million in the next few years, mainly down to migrants.
Stop blaming the BNP for a disaster created by the Tories and Labour.
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Nick Griffin on C4 News last night was a canny operator. When Jon Snow was calm and collected, Griffin was on the back foot but holding his own. But when Snow did the morally outraged bit and lost his cool it was Game Set and Match to Griffin.
The Royal British Legion had asked Griffin not to wear a poppy emblem, and his retort was he would take it off if the Legion backed his campaign for injured black and white servicemen in Selly Oak hospital did not have to pay to watch TV. But it is alright for in his words "criminal scum" to watch TV for free.
If the interviewer is calm and smiles at the interviewee like Sian Williams (BBC Breakfast) did with Brown during the Labour Party conference the interviewee will almost always be discomfitted. Bringing out the fascist slogans may make the left wingers feel good inside but Griffin will only lap it up.
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Would a drubbing from Ian Hislop cause BNP voters to think twice about Griffin? Given the generally negative perception of the BNP it is just possible that they have thought twice already and delivered their vote anyway. Pehaps they perceive failure in the mainstream parties. The real question is, Question Time or no, whether they will go on perceiving it; and like the rest of us, what reason is there why they shouldn't?
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Interesting how a comment in support of the BNP that flies in the face of the prejudices of this blog's readers should be considered laughable. The last laugh will be on you when the BNP double their vote to 2,000,000 in the next election.
Not only are my partner and I voting for the BNP, but several of my family are also inclined to vote for them. And one of my brothers is married to a black Jamaican, the other brother has a child with a Nigerian. It is amazing how the chattering classes who contribute to this echo chamber are the ones who think they are not racists. Yet the people who actually live among muslims are the ones who are voting BNP. Have you failed to notice that the two BNP MEPs are in muslim areas, instead of the Tory heartland?
Some of my gay friends are also prepared to vote for the BNP. Others are refusing, yet they are also refusing to read books like Bruce Bawer's "While Europe Slept". I find it very significant that people who live such privileged middle class lives are also those who are refusing to understand what is happening with islam in europe.
There is no excuse for such ignorance. Read "The Last Days of Europe" by Walter Laqueur (establishment figure and international expert on fascism). Churchill was also laughed at and marginalised when he warned about the Nazis.
We've had the murder of Theo Van Gogh. Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Geert Wilders living under 24/7 police protection. Death threats against Salman Rushdie and Terence McNally (some of these made by so called moderate muslims). Terrorist attacks in London and Madrid, and many more foiled attacks. Mobs of 1500 muslims attacking the police in Harrow. And anyone who says we have a problem is branded a racist.
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48. sagamix
You have strayed into the extreme with plan 3 but you are on the right track.
Address all those issues with a “slightly” lighter touch and you’re there.
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What is clear is that there will never be a serious debate of the elephant in the room. This week's QT will no doubt descend into a farce focusing on the BNP's loony policies, spitfires, Nazis and Holocaust denial, which I fear are not major concerns of the BNP voters. Even if the BNP self-destruct, until the main parties take their heads out of the sand, the main issue will still be there.
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"Newlabour's pathetic attempts to pull the racist card yet again"
And there was me thinking that Nick Griffin was the guilty one.
Tbh my view is that BNP should be banned altogether. Banning them from question time is a second step. After all wasn't that Muslim cleric imprisoned for spreading race hate? The BNP has consistently been the advocate of an unequal society and routinely preached hate messages (Griffin's even been convicted for it). I'm sorry but this leopard has had insufficient time to bleach its spots. And to support a party that wants to get tough with immigration (at least of non-European immigration - Griffin's words) and advocates so much of what is sick about this society is just unacceptable.
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Circumstances. that's what the BNP are making a bit of headway with.
They are not significant yet but (and I live in an area where they are quite visible) I think that they are gaining support.
They are winning over people because of circumstances -
The gradual dumbing down of the population over the past 10 or 15 years. People just seem to be less capable of making rational decision due in part to poor educational standards and the creeping celebrity culture of cash and fame
The erosion of the white working class male belief in their voice being noticed by anyone - positive discriminants take note
The fact that the current government has had 12 years for 'things to only get better' and they aren't.
The fact that the current parliament is seemingly full of career politicians who seem to have a high percentage of members taking as much as they can for personal gain whilst appearing to do little for the man in the street
Add these things up and a lot of people are looking for something that will help them.
Probably the BNP will self destruct. However as another poster put it - they will only be beaten if the other parties counter their arguments and work toward a fairer crack of the whip for those who feel the need to vote for them now.
I personally don't vote for the BNP or any particular mainstream party by default, but I'd like to vote for someone who has the nerve to say that the best person for the job will get it - not an underrepresented in our organisation person. Positive discrimination is discrimination too
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When will the chattering classes learn that the way to deal with the BNP is to have an open and honest debate about the issues they are trying to make their own? Sorry, BBC but Question Time is unlikely to do that.
For starters, we need to have a proper debate about immigration not least how we are going to cope with the sheer numbers. For example, we have already been warned that there may not be enough capacity in electricity generation to supply the current population. So how are going to nanage to supply an ever-increasing population? And that's without looking at water supply, food, housing, schools, hospitals and new roads.
Unfortunately, anyone who raises any concern about immigration is castigated as racist. And anyone who thinks this is not a concern to ordinary people - and not just the working class - is living in cloud cuckoo land.
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Saga - I normally disagree (if only to myself) with what you post, but for once your comments at #48 had me nodding in wholehearted agreement- in particular with your conclusions.
Unlike, I suspect, many posters on this blog, I have actually taken the trouble this morning to read through the BNP website (where, incidentally, you will see Winston giving a particularly apt version of the V-sign). So apart from the thinly-disguised hatred and bigotry masquerading as policy, what is there? Well, as several have already pointed out, a few items that some people might agree with as aspirations. I could even find some sympathy for them myself, were it not for the methodology implicit behind the facade of 'speaking for the masses'.
There is, I think, little doubt that the attraction for some of the BNP's supporters is that they say what others think - but that is not the same as saying what other people have come to believe by reason. No doubt there are those who would like to see the return of corporal and capital punishment - if that is not an option from other parties, then these people will be attracted in part to the BNP. The same might apply to the idea of re-introducing National Service. (I suppose that would appeal to surviving ex-National Servicemen -'it never did me any harm' brigade? - but whilst the BNP may say they support Britain's military forces, I have never heard any support at any level from regular or TA/reserve sources for this idea. (Being ex-TA myself).
All the policies are there for people to look at - as they are for any other party. It doesn't need exposure on QT or elsewhere to determine what they are, but to read the actual website is to expose the shallowness (and danger) of their arguments.
I will conclude with one example. They intend to 'deport the ten's of thousand's of foreign criminals' currently in British prisons. An interesting figure - the latest (16 October) figures for the prison population is 84,702. Exactly how many 10's of 1000's are they talking about? Is, say, one fifth of it really overseas nationals? Sounds like hyperbole to me at best - scare tactics or Goebbel's propaganda more likely.(Tell a lie often enough approach).
PS Why does their 'compulsory Cummunity Award Scheme' remind me of the Hitler Jugend?
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KingDouglasD seems to believe the political system belongs to the old Westminster parties and any new comers are to be allowed no access to the media. That reminds me of some of our "partners" in the EU where no new party can be formed unless it can show it has a certain minimum level of support - go compute!
The BBC Charter does not say "give balanced coverage to all the parties who control the renewal of your Charter". It says balanced and educate and inform.
An issue I am keen to get resolved is why the BBC has invited the BNP so soon. BNP got their first national representation of 2 MEPs (by the skin of their teeth in the North West) only in June 2009. Why do they give the Greens so much coverage? So far as I recall, UKIP had to wait longer than 4 months to get on QT after getting 3 MEPs in 1999 and they did not get equal treatment compared with the Greens after 2004 despite getting much more electoral support - more than the LibDems, actually.
In 2009 UKIP exceeded both LibDems and Labour.
It is yet to be seen how well the smaller parties do in the coming General Election but if the BBC keep them off the screen (save for those they privately endorse?), then the old tired parties will continue to dominate politics here until the people find an alternative method of getting rid of them.
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#1 saga
Why didn't the BBC give Griffen the Humphrys/Paxman treatment first?
Why have they chosen QT? I think it's a cheap stunt and they should never have done it. He'll sit there and chuck out soundbites virtually unchallenged.
I'm not looking forward to the programme or the press afterwards - far right politics makes me feel extremely uncomfortable unless viewed retrospectively as a thing of the past.
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This prediction of mine comes true too, does it not?
A democratically elected MEP has every right to speak on a platform such as the BBC. What are you all afraid of? Because he speaks the truth for some of the areas of this country? Because what he says is said up and down the land by millions of ordinary folk afraid of the "thought police" the "do gooders" "lefties" "hippies" "naive academics" orchestrated a big misguided so called moral high ground offensive?
Hmmm. Well, wake up Britain. The reason it has got this far is because this silly stupid inept government has allowed millions and millions of unchecked immigration into the country. They have changed some of our neighbourhoods into slums. Maybe not YOU personally. Maybe you, along with the politicians, live away from it.
It may not yet be in your backyard. But for those whose lives have been changed irrevocably, it is intimidating and disgraceful.
No, bring Nick Griffin on. Let us hear what he has to say and then let US decide. Not the BBC and certainly not that twerp Peter Hain - send him back to South Africa to pontificate.
And, as to the backdrops of the war planes - well, excuse me but what is wrong with that? My father and grandfather fought in two world wars for our freedom (of speech as well as lives) and I am sure they would not have been offended.
It stands to be one of the highest ratings for a programme ever. Just wait and see!
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It is staggering how uninformed some of the contributors are here. I don't expect you to know that when Dutch gay people (normally the most liberal of the most liberal) where asked which party they supported, the majority said it was Wilders' Party of Freedom.
However, ask yourselves why it is that the media have not drawn attention to the massive popularity of Geert Wilder's party in the Netherlands. The Netherlands has been the symbol of freedom and tolerance in Europe for hundreds of years. There are polls in the Netherlands throughout 2009 that show his party gets more support than any other party.
I am new here so I'm not sure if URLs are permitted in blog posts. Here are a couple showing his party's popularity:
http://www.christian.org.uk/news/20090512/anti-islam-mp-still-leads-dutch-polls-after-uk-ban/
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2009/04/wilders_ideas_enjoy_40_support.php
If those URLs are not permitted then please type these terms into google and see the URLs for yourselves: geert wilders leads polls netherlands.
The Dutch have woken up, and now it the British are waking up. Geert Wilders wants nothing to do with the BNP, because he's anti-racist.
But in Britain the only choice of those who oppose islam is to vote for the BNP. The CEHR are doing the BNP a great favour in forcing them to stop being racist in their membership. But the BNP has become the political centre of the anti-islamic sentiment in the UK.
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Good points #54, #56, #59 and #61. There has for a long time been a disconnect between politicians and the public (nothing new) but in a time of economic hardship that disconnect becomes increasingly harmful to society. I have no problem with protest votes but advocating the likes of the BNP we are opening the door to a number of much more unpalatable policies - unfortunately they are supported by many who are untouched by or ignorant of these policies. As I say they should never have been a legitimate political party like the NF before them. Their underlying message will always be of hate to certain members of our country.
IF this becomes a fillip for a conscious effort by the mainstream parties to address some genuine issues then that might be a positive result but in too many cases the BNP might just be a voice for the ignorant and our country is going a down a dangerous route by embracing them into the mainstream.
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Is it not facist of this government to try and control us with fear : global warming, swine flu, international terrorism? The new Federal Europe in gestation about to burst forth with its president Herr Blair?
Think about this. If Brown gets his way we will merge into the Federal Europe and negotiations will take place directly with Obama and Blair, bypassing us.
Now there's a REAL cause for concern. The BNP are just trying to redress the awful problems we are in now.
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it shows both the good and bad of these political parties and to refuse them air time just becouse they are extreemists will cause problems for others not connected to the main parties.
all these stories seem to lead towards british media only advertising the big three parties and excluding all others until the voting public has no free choice other than the big three.
have we become victims of parliments success i think so and going down this road leads to dictatorships and loss of freedom.
people should not fear government, government should fear the people.
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48#
(3) address the concerns of their supporters
okay fair enough, let's DO that
so what we need is to adopt (inter alia) the following policies:
- shut the borders
- pull out of Europe
- put whites to the front of every queue
- deport undesirables
- roll back political correctness
- introduce flogging for petty criminals
- bring back hanging for the others
I got this far and then I had to stop - hang on a second, I said to myself, is that "addressing their concerns" or is that more in the way of pandering to stupendous ignorance?.... back to square one"
How do you work that lot out? All you've written down there is what you think a BNP manifesto would look like and what would happen under a BNP administration. And you think those are the kind of tunes you'd have to play on your dogwhistle to allay the concerns of the traditional Labour voters who have ebbed away to the BNP?
Oh dear.
Look at posts 22 and 23. Do you think that is what they are expecting the BNP to do? You're not addressing their concerns, you're indulging in the typical knee-jerk, quasi-populist vote chasing that has been the hallmark of this administration since 1997.
Theres an old Napoleon quote, Saga that goes something like this:
"Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake."
You're not my enemy, by any stretch of the imagination, but.... you just keep on thinking like you do.... and keep on watching NL's core vote walk away towards the BNP, particularly in the big cities.
Oh, incidentally, though... I did find one entry intriguing... from your previous list - Do you think that we have a responsibility to look after the worlds "undesirables" and give them shelter, succour and all the protection the state can provide?
Bet you were spitting carrot cake when Thatcher was cosying upto Augusto Pinochet though, didnt you? Whats the difference between a hate preacher like Abu Hamza, or Omar Bakri Mohammad and Augusto Pinochet? Or any other number of criminals who have committed serious crimes including rape or murder but cannot be deported back to their original state because it infringes their human rights? Or that their big mouths might get them into trouble when they get back there?
And yet Gordon's dogwhistle tune in 2007 was:
“We expect to deport 4,000 foreign nationals who have previously been in our prisons. Two years ago the figure was 1,500 but we are going to take a far tougher line. I want a message to go out. If you come here you work and you learn our language. If you commit a crime you will be deported from our country. You play by the rules or you face the consequences. I am not prepared to tolerate a situation where we have people breaking the rules in our country when we cannot act. That will be toughened up.”
So... he wasnt pandering to "stupendous ignorance" was he? Course not....
But as I said mate... dont let me interrupt you.
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Quote : Peter_sym 9.15 .
All the nations you quote who fought the battle of britain ARE BRITISH !Fighting for the Empire ! Except poles french and czechs who's numbers were small. The spitfire is a British plane built flown and defending Britain. Dosen't matter what flag is on that particular one . Nick Griffins father served with the RAF. Perhaps you should learn YOUR History. No nation is completely free of "Foreign" blood . All nations have mixed blood but you would not call into account their right to call themselves French or Israeli so why British ?
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55. united_dreamer
Not really cheery picking, didn’t Bernie also campaign for Rastafarians to be exempt from poll tax because they were errrr not sure why ? Nick Griffin would make a meal of him. He was an extreme character voted in as Mayor by an extreme borough.
The answer to one extreme view point is most definitely not to oppose it with another. Do that and you end up with polarisation of 2 extreme view points with everyone forming around a flag they feel closest affiliation too.
Oh yes and ref your comment:
“Seems that Griffin saying that sinking boats carrying economic migrants is ok though. To you” …
Where did that come from. Not very logical and certainly not very accurate. Don’t miss-read my argument for free speech as support.
Personally I’m all for economic migration. I think Id open the borders to all.
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"Perhaps the Tories are seeking to bury the news that they are likely to ban men from attempting to become Tory MP's - so discriminating against 50% of the population on grounds of sex. Surely that's illegal."
All women short-lists are not the same as banning men from attempting to become Tory MPs.
Many men will be standing as Tory candidates next year (in fact the vast majority of Tory candidates will be men - including the Tory leader).
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There`s nothing I like better than the sound of the bloated British establishment squealing in terror when Griffin calls them out for the anti-British genocidal traitors they are.Give `em hell Nick my boy!
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70. uk-anti-racist
More... More fantastic stuff.
Still ROFL
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Using a very perverse political logic, supporters of a 'political' England, ala political Scotland and Wales, can only view the publicity given to the British National Party as damaging for all those out there who support political Britain and think of themselves as British.
However indirectly, supporters of political Britan are contaminated by association with the BNP, even in opposition to it.
Every cloud has a silver lining for somebody and in this case, it assists those of us English who are working towards a political England in its own right.
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#73 united_dreamer wrote:
"The BNP has consistently been the advocate of an unequal society."
Agree.
But in proposing banning the BNP are you not also an advocate of an unequal society?
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Truly grotesque censorship from the Trotskyite BBC!
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"united_dreamer wrote:
Tbh my view is that BNP should be banned altogether."
Shall we ban everything we disagree with? And if so who gets to decide what gets banned and what is allowed? And what should we call him/her? I would suggest something polite in case they try to ban us!
Personally I dislike the BNP and the Labour party, so perhaps they both should be banned. And I don't like the Scouse accent - so they should be banned as well. Oh and I don't like that the Premier League football clubs are better than my local team so they should be banned too.
I am sure by the time that everybody has compiled their lists we won't have anything left
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"The same might apply to the idea of re-introducing National Service. (I suppose that would appeal to surviving ex-National Servicemen -'it never did me any harm' brigade? - but whilst the BNP may say they support Britain's military forces, I have never heard any support at any level from regular or TA/reserve sources for this idea. (Being ex-TA myself)."
I actually agree with a re-introduction of some form of National Service with the option of a non-military service if preferred. There is a real separation in society that erects barriers based largely on ignorance. Were we forced to co-exist at a basic level with many we distrusted or never understood it would resolve most of the issues we have and would build a much more responsible society that cares about Britain. After I left College I spent time doing charity work and it did me the power of good.
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We get the government we deserve. If a million people in this country are so ignorant of history, of the dangers of the extremism that parties like the BNP represent... then whose fault but the English is it if they shape our politics?
I'm young; nationalism isn't something that I care about. The last generation can waste their energy on that, while I enjoy the freedom of ad hoc identity groups.
I'm educated; I've got quite a good job, it's stable and career progression isn't stunted. I worked hard studying, improving myself to be in this position.
People like me are immune to the BNP. It's the uneducated, the underclass of people in this country who just didn't apply themselves that will fall victim to them. Is it ironic that the people who shout loudest about their "Britishness" are usually the ones who have done little or nothing to improve Britain?
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Today it was announced that the UK population is heading towards 70 million, most of the rise attributed in one way or another to immigration. Immigration is an area that the three mainstream parties are afraid to deal with. Until such time as the three mainstream parties actually address the issues that immigration brings, good and bad, then the BNP will continue it's rise. The bad aspects of immigration such as effects on public services, schools, jobs etc disproportionately affect the poorest in our society and it is these people who are most likely to vote BNP whilst the positive aspects of immigration are most likely appreciated by the middle and upper classes. It is a lie to state that immigration brings only benefits and it is a lie to state that is brings only misery. The truth is somewhere in between and is skewed by where you are in the class pecking order. I believe that QT is going to prove very difficult this week. If the panel discuss nothing but racism etc then they will be seen to be bullying Griffen and this will play into his hands. If they discuss immigration then he will be able to quote Labours policy of repatriacion. If they discuss jobs and the economy he can quote Labours 'British jobs for British workers'. If they discuss politics he will have a go at MP's expenses. If they discuss crime etc etc etc. He can't lose, the BBC can't win and the BNP are goping to come out of this better than when they went in.. Democracy? Perhaps. Sensible? Maybe not.
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76 Andy-in-France
OK Andy, lets go through these one by one seeing as you are in full agreement with the full argument.
Lets accept that you are not going to convince everyone but you will be happy with reducing the BNP vote to 200k
SO
- shut the borders (How about just controlling them)
- pull out of Europe (How about reduce its influence and power)
- put whites to the front of every queue (very few want that – forget it)
- deport undesirables ( How about we just deport foreign undesirables when they come out of prison rather than just loose them)
- roll back political correctness (Hell yes.. works for me, never met a fan of it)
- introduce flogging for petty criminals (How about fair and reflective punishment for offenders)
- bring back hanging for the others (No you can forget that too)
DO all that amd most people that voted BNP would not feel the need to do so again.
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I would say that the worst thing any other panellist on the show could do would be to get so stoked to take the moral high ground that they work themselves into a frothingly angry state.
Shouting and screaming at Griffin to make a point, no matter how good it might be, is just going to make them look like the crazy ones.
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Ah, so that's what has been going on behind the scenes, "...quietly behind the scenes, all the mainstream parties co-operated to try to head off the threat from the BNP..." and, "...Hence the campaign organised by two well-connected Tory activists which shot to prominence yesterday..." obviously aided by many journalist helpers.
I have a good mind to vote BNP for no other reason than that the other parties have shown themselves to be manipulative, underhand, and unwilling to allow me to make up my own mind.
I don't want someone else deciding who I can listen to or what I should think. When journalists or politicians connive to prevent me hearing what someone has to say, they are being anti democratic in the most fundamental way. If you, or politicians disagree with the BNP then present your arguments and let us decide who we agree with.
I feel nothing but contempt for people who shout down the opposition because they fear that otherwise they might loose the argument.
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There is a very naive idea that if the BNP get to speak publicly then people will see them for who they really area and turn away from them.
This is a BIG mistake.
The are loads of people in this country who LIKE what the BNP says, especially young men, and some from older generations.
Racism, Anti Semitism and Anti Islam are far more widespread than people think. We live in the home counties and I suggested to my eldest daughter that she asked Asian and African people in her class who had suffered some racial abuse. Every single one had - and regularly. And this is a middle class, pretty liberal area, you would think.
When it comes to immigration, the BNP has found a ready audience with their anti-Islam message. Millions of people in this country genuinly distrust Muslims, a feeling that to be honest has been whipped up into a frenzy not by the BNP but some of the regular press. These completely misguided fools really think the BNP is right, they really believe that being white is being an underclass and that something radical should be done about it.
I think many people are racist on some level, hate Islam, hate jews and will cheer Nick Griffin on from their sofas tonight. Which just sends shudders down my spine.
What is more, I think the Beeb know this and are only putting Griffin on to get on-air controversy and lots of coverage. The producers are simply stirring it for their own ends and this is NOTHING to do with balance.
Racism is one of those horrific things in our world that prove a million people CAN be wrong.
Griffin knows this, and will leverage it to his advantage. The BBC has just handed him the tool to do it with.
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#64, and what are we going to sell to the Chinese and Indian when they are as rich as us? Come to think of it, what are we selling them now? You seem to have a good idea of trade, what are the UK's three top exports?
You can't keep borrowing from the rest of the world forever, no matter what Crash Gordon tells us.
You had better start getting used to clocking on at a factory, forgetting the duvet days and male maternity leave, just get back to earning a crust. You won't like it, but you'll get used to it, I did.
#65, I have got about fifteen years on you, but I think they are the important years, when it comes to talking about fascism and the people who fought against. I grew up surrounded by them, and they all were potential BNP voters. You may see a few at BNP meetings.
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Just thought I'd add my two pence worth.
Does anyone remember the story of the King's New Clothes? I feel like the boy who could actually see that there weren't any clothes at all, but all the same, the rest of the crowds towed the line and exclaimed their wonderment at the King's new garb. What I can see is a country giving away its culture and freedoms to an invading army, whilst all around, people deny that anything is wrong.
Forget 'Racism'. Forget 'Fascism'. Forget 'Viking Invasions'. The plain and simple fact is that this is an island, and can only sustain so many inhabitants. Also, the British people who fought to keep their way of life through two World Wars are now feeling under threat from invasion again. This time from an army of immigrants whom the Labour party is letting in to bolster its voter numbers. I and many others, like it or not, feel that our elite are giving our country away. A country where we have lived for thousands of years, and a country of which we are rightly proud. The British Bulldog, supposedly steadfast in its resolution never to submit to tyranny is now a whimpering pup, cowering in the corner whist Labour cow-tow and do everything they can to appease the invading army. Luckily we have the BNP, who seem to be the only ones with the guts to point out that wherever there are Muslims, there is conflict, destruction, and death. And now they are here. Demanding this, and demanding that, and the government give in time after time. If our ancestors could see the state of our country they would be spinning in their graves. Everytime there is an atrocity perpatrated by Islamic Extremists, Labour appease them by blaming Israel or America. The fact is that Islam IS a threat to civilisation (Can anyone name any Islamic country where the inhabitants are not constantly killing each other?).
On the way to see my father, (who fought for this country in the last war, as did many others), in hospital last night, I had to pass through an area I have not been through for years. There is a huge Mosque there now, and outside hundreds of Muslims milling about in the street. I don't dislike any one of them individually, but I do object in the extreme to what they represent as a group. The end of life in the UK as we know it. Think about this before you criticise the BNP. They may be our only hope.
I thank you!!!
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I am not a BNP supporter, but I can understand the feeling of persecution of those who are. One only has to look at the banning of (traditionally British) fox hunting vs the complete lack of debate about the cruel and unnecessary process of (traditionally semitic) halal slaughter. The latter is simply not up for discussion, despite numerous official recommendations that it should be banned (eg http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2977086.stm). No wonder native Britons feel marginalised, on this and many other issues. The chattering elite would do well to recognise this discontent before it is too late.
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I'm wary about this - all politicians are masters of playing to their own gallery of constituents and if allowed on QT, Nick Griffin will doubtless only reinforce the narrow view taken by his faithfull. Additionally, these people are veritable Derren Browns when it comes to laying down subliminal messages that prompt the desired (frequently unwitting) response from the instigator (in this case, Griffin/BNP). In this regard, look at how Goebbels successfuly managed the mindest of preware Germany with only a fraction of the tools available to today's politicians. I'm generally against censorship of this sort, but I trully fear for the consequences of giving Griffin's views a national platform
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22. uk-anti-racist wrote:
"That's why Geert Wilders party is the leading party in the Netherlands."
Geert Wilders party has SEVEN seats in the dutch parliament. Its about as 'leading' as UKIP.
On the Spitfire issue. Supermarine was bought by Vickers. Vickers aircraft manufacturing wing was merged to create BAC (British Aircraft Corporation) which in turn became BAe. I would strongly suggest that BAe take legal action for misuse of their intellectual property. I would also strongly urge the family of RJ Mitchell and the family of the POLISH pilot who's particular spitfire is being misused do the same.
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Andy-in-France wrote:
"Unlike, I suspect, many posters on this blog, I have actually taken the trouble this morning to read through the BNP website"
Actually, compared to what they are really like, their website is quite tame. The major hangout for BNP supporters is Stormfront forum. But if you go there, I warn you it is horrific. That is where they discuss about what they really want to do with the people they hate, and it is vile.
Stormfront is an international White Supremacist forum with a HUGE membership. But it has a UK section. If the BBC wanted to really pin the tail on the BNP donkey, they should investigate stormfront and see which names they can link to BNP members.
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On Question Time last week, an Afghan member of the audience said that it was important that "Coalition foreigners" didn't fundamentally change the "national character of Afghanistan". The panel members all nodded sagely - David Dimbleby even suggested he might be on the panel. Yet if Nick Griffin tomorrow night said exactly the same thing in the context of "foreigners changing the national character of Britain", there would be howls of protest. It is THAT double standard that allows the BNP's influence to grow. Caledonian Comment
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History tells us that radical solutions are sought when those in power are in disrepair and the country has gone to the dogs. The rise of the BNP is not about how the BNP has risen, it is about the British public saying that radicalism is a solution because the country's finances, foreign policy and laws are in a mess. Unfortunately, the increased popularity of the BNP follows a direct correlation to the lack of faith in the political system. The answer: don't tackle the BNP. Pay back expenses, get our troops home, give offenders tougher sentences and create more jobs. If you did that, noone would care about the BNP. Whilst we sit in the mire, they seem, to some, an alternative, regardless of the foul stench. The rise of the BNP is simply symbolic for Labour's failings.
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#87 Mark_WE
"All women short-lists are not the same as banning men from attempting to become Tory MPs."
Don't talk daft!
All gay short-lists are not the same as banning heterosexuals from attempting to become Tory MPs.?
All coloured short-lists are not the same as banning whites from attempting to become Tory MPs?
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The SNP made their tactics known last week, hoping to be the small tail wagging the big dog in a hung parliament. Clearly the major parties are alarmed at the prospect of the BNP being in the same position.
The BBC have been absolutely right to include Griffin. Nothing will expose him for the blustering, bigotted charlatan that he is, more than debate in an open forum.
Hain was fundamentally wrong. Banning the BNP would have played into the hands of the largely paranoid, largely white, largely poorly educated, who currently form their constituency.
The cry would have been, 'We Was Gagged!', without ever having to get into the tedious business of explaining policy.
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The rise of the BNP represents a failure of the main parties to listen to voters genuine, non racist, concerns about immigration, which is brought in to sharp focus with today's ONS forecast increase in population to 71M by 2033, with "2/3rds of the increase directly or indirectly as a result of migration". Many people feel we live in an overcrowded island, and they do not want to see a further vast increase in population. Unless the mainstream parties address this concern then parties like the BNP will, sadly, get more support.
Personally I find the BNP odious, and I think the more people see Griffin squirming to avoid straight questions about race and the ludicrous policies they offer, the less support they will get. So let Griffin go on QT, and allow the people to decide. I for one have had enough of Nulab trying to proscribe every aspect of our lives.
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The BBC won`t allow me to quote Bob Whitaker`s "Mantra".Look it up on Google and you`ll see why.It tells the unvarnished truth about the massive immigration into white countries,and ONLY white countries.I can`t wait for the Tories to privatise the Beeb.Stalinist organ.
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That's a lot of blogging space on Nick Griffin appearing on another BBC product
Is the Question Time audience falling?
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I'd be against any more national publicity for the BNP - Regarding politically motivated racism, it's always been the case that those who do not learn the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them
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Forgetting partisan politics for a moment (and I am rather sick of it), let's look at the forthcoming election in a different way. As a voter, you can do one of the following:
1) Vote to maintain the status quo (voting for current government)
2) Vote to change the status quo (voting for main opposition to government)
3) Vote on one single issue, local, national, or other
4) Protest vote
The BNP come under options 3 or 4 - under the current system of parliament they're never going to be in a majority government (at least not in the foreseeable future) so the only hope they have is to just have a voice in opposition.
I think a lot of the BNP support is borne of the fact that people know they don't have a cat in hell's chance of real government power, but want the rest of the political world to take notice of what they stand for. As I said previously, if the main parties dealt with the issues that BNP voters are concerned about, the need for the BNP itself would disappear.
As a floating voter (a real one, not like some) I'm rather disenfranchised with the current system. I've long been stumping for Option 2 as I know the most important priority at the moment is evicting NuLabour from government (please note, this doesn't make me a Tory).
However, if we get more nonsense from Cameron like the undemocratic discrimination policy that got brought up yesterday, a Tory government would just result in more of the same insanity that has plagued us these past 12 years.
Which would leave me with options 3 and 4. Technically, since I live in a Labour stronghold constituency, my vote is meaningless anyway, so 3 and 4 is all I have, really. Let's just hope the Raving Loony Party are in town next May I guess...
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PS. I hear that the BNP have a new strapline:
"At home with the fokkers."
(with acknowledegments to the master cartoonist Peter Brookes).
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I have always felt that many mainstream politicians i.e Thatcher, and many of her era were never really saying what they felt with regard to immigration and the increasing dissafection of the white population in this country.
Now we have a voice albeit a radical voice putting across what many believe in but are afraid to say .
With the projected 10 million increase in population in this country mostly from immigration it will only give more muscle to the BNP .
Most left wing apologists do not appreciate the way the traditional nationalistic supporter feels about the way this country has lurched into a mixed race society , indeen those in some parts of the country i.e the shires and hampshire have yet to feel the force of immigration on there twee little world , it is inevitable that as the population grows these places will become more populated with ethic groups , watch the bleating then.
The BNP wil not get a foothold yet in mainstrean politics but as more of the population become over-run with the overspill from immigration and overpopulation and overspill from the cities its popularity will increase .
It is over 40 years since the Enoch Powell speech in the midlands when he was blackballed by his own party yet the recived massive support form many of population by way of letters of support , indeed 35000 in favour with aprox 800 dissenting , although times have changed radically since then and the country is unrecognisable from the one of the 60,s the issues remain , this counrty will never truly accept a racially mixed society , if only the politicians would say what they really felt instead of hiding below the parapet
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#86 I'm all for education. Try this link.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jul/09/nick-griffin-bnp
Also Bernie Grant is not an extremist to the level of the BNP. Some of his arguments were more ideas to get some thoughts on the table. These views were never taken seriously and but for his comments on the Blakelock murder he never advocated violence although they certainly didn't help the situation.
Nick Griffin would never have made mincemeat of Bernie Grant of that I am sure but sitting next to him advocating his political points would have made him very uncomfortable (physically). But this is clearly a musing on my part that will never take place. He doesn't mix with black people - that alone would make him uncomfortable. Certainly not someone who doesn't mince his words. The spectacle of his discomfort alone would be worth the cost of my TV licence. You would be surprised how the image of a trembling politician pledging to make Britain great would undermine the support he gets.
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All posters.
Don't ask the age of anyone on this blog, because it breaks house rules. How democratic is that?
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If only the three major parties would listen to what the majority of the electorate is saying, rather than giving weight (and unwarranted publicity) to extreme views, there would be no need for the BNP to exist.
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I hope we will now get a procession of true war veterans who will point out to the BNP that they laid down their lives to fight Fascisism in the war.
To be then used by the fascists to promote their campaign is somewhat ridiculous.
Much as the BNP try to put on that 'wool coat' - they are ultimately following a fascist agenda but are trying to encourage membership by using emotive issues such as immigration.
The reality is immigration isn't costing Britains jobs, it's down to the free movement of capital out of the country at the moment.
You could build a giant wall around the coast - but it won't make a jot of difference to the current situation - don't the BNP realise that jobs are moving offshore because the Capitalist is trying to make money.
I also noticed Nick Griffin repeated the lie on TV last night about immigrants being above Brits in the housing queue.
What he actually means is 'people with black faces' are coming to the top of the housing queue - ignoring the fact that a lot were born here and there is a higher proportion of ethnic minorities in need of social hel due to the instilled racism of this country in some areas.
I mean when you folow the recent study where people with a 'white' name are more likely to get a job interview - is it any wonder there is a greater need for help amongst ethnic minorities?
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I firstly want to say that I do NOT support the BNP but I thought that we live in a democracy and the BNP and are an elected party whether we like it or not. How dare people patronise the British public by saying that the BNP should be banned or that they should not be allowed to debate with other politicans. To advocate this is to advocate press censorship - something which I find abhorrent.
Is all publicity good? I don't think so, it was only last night while listening to the news that I was reminded that the BNP are holocaust deniers and of their leaders convictions for race crimes - something which the vast majority of the British public will find disgusting.
It is worth remembering though that everyone should have their say and to stop someone just because you dont like it is not the way I want to live.
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#93. While I do have a bit of sympathy for the banning of the scouse accent I do think the BNP goes further than being "just another" political party as their membership policy revealed. Their rank and file membership advocate a white first approach to policies. I never understood why a party that was pretty much openly racist were allowed to stand. Free speech is fine but when you advocate hate then you should be outlawed. The Muslim fundamentalist that was jailed (forget the name) did no more than talk but was imprisoned. Are you advocating that he should be allowed to stand or is the brainwashing of the weak minded only a Muslim susceptibility?
By the way I agree with many of the things that you say - I just think that the BNP have for too long stretched the acceptable boundaries of democratic free speech. If they really have changed then they need to do a lot more to prove it.
By the way - separate point - I do believe the BBC are just trying to get audience figures up with this stunt. Unfortunately it will work but the cost for me is too high.
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#102 - excellent post.
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fubar @ 84
look at posts 22 and 23
okay just done that ... 23 is waffle and 22 says we need to vote BNP to "fight Islam"
so that was a bit of a waste of time, wasn't it?
Gordon's dogwhistle tune in 2007
I agree - very poor show - in fact (for me) his "BJs for BWs" was far more reprehensible than "No More Boom And Bust"
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The easiest way to kill off the BNP is to give them enough rope to hang themselves. Single issue parties rarely come across well on the national stage. It's a bit offensive to suggest the electorate are so ignorant that the mere appearance of the BNP on Question Time will imperil democracy. They are nothing more than a small minority party with some regional areas of support - hardly worth the amount of fuss that is currently going on.
I suspect the mainstream parties are pleased to have an opportunity to manufacture some outrage to deflect attention from their own shortcomings.
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carrots @ C minus one
sounds like you're going for a kind of "BNP Redux" there! ... haven't the carlton wing of the Tory Party got that covered already?
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I'm reading a book called 'Londonistan - How Britain Has Created A Terror State Within' by Melanie Phillips.
It makes for very interesting reading - I might suggest that some of the people contributing to this discussion fork out a few quid and get some enlightenment!
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#65 - if you say so. I'm not convinced though. I would suggest though that you try and talk regularly with black people who you come into contact with if you do on a deeper level than you might normally do holding suspending judgement just to try and understand a different view point.
While I do think there should be more efforts to build nationhood by the closer working of people to a common end (national service/voluntary work) BNP are not the answer. They actually are the opposite of the answer - they benefit from discord and reaction.
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48. At 10:31am on 21 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
(3) address the concerns of their supporters
okay fair enough, let's DO that
so what we need is to adopt (inter alia) the following policies:
- shut the borders
- pull out of Europe
- put whites to the front of every queue
- deport undesirables
- roll back political correctness
- introduce flogging for petty criminals
- bring back hanging for the others
***************************
Strangely enough Saga you have identified policies which with a bit of fine tuning, and taking out your obnoxious extreme spin, are on the lines of what would work.
1. Control the borders properly.
2. Review our relationship with Europe
3. Give equal to opportunity to all that are entitled to it.
4. Deport foreign criminal undesirables.
5. Apply political correctness sensibly.
6. Introduce proper punishment for crime.
7. Not hanging, but life to mean life.
Keep taking the tablets. You might get it right eventually.
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The problem is that the mainstream parties particularly New Labour have made serious mistakes, which the BNP have been able to exploit. If, rather than foolishly and ineffectively, trying to prevent Mr Griffin being heard, they concentrated on putting some of these things right, then it would be easier to counter Mr Griffin.
The generals should at least be asked to explain why they obeyed orders to attack two peaceful countries, when it was certainly against the spirit and probably against the letter of the UN charter. The charter, as a treaty signed by the UK and still in force, has the status of law.
The duty that members of the armed forces have to refuse illegal orders is an important safeguard of our democracy. If, as happened in Germany in the 1930's, a government started behaving illegally, it would be the duty of the generals, officials and policemen, to refuse to obey illegal orders from that government. A few brave men did in fact do so in Germany, but far too few.
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I am glad the BBC is allowing this to happen, it was really looking like it was the socialist who were against free speech.
As regards to The Generals comments, he must understand most of the country was against the war in Iraq (as with Afghanistan) 'not in my name' I think was the people of Britain's slogan at the time.
The BNP ? well, once you start alienating people, they will turn to extremists, be they Muslim or white working class. Terrorists will always exploit this.
If you start blaming 'others' for your own woes, you create hate and distrust. Only freedom of speech can combat this, so well done the BBC.
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CaledonianComment wrote:
"On Question Time last week, an Afghan member of the audience said that it was important that "Coalition foreigners" didn't fundamentally change the "national character of Afghanistan"..... if Nick Griffin tomorrow night said exactly the same thing in the context of "foreigners changing the national character of Britain", there would be howls of protest."
The problem here is that the national character of Britain is NOT being fundamentally changed by immigrants. SO the audience would be right to yell at him.
It is being changed by the media, mostly with an American influence. If you want to be really silly about it, you could say that it is the "evil of the rock and roll music" that has done for the traditions in this country.
The whole issue of immigrants killing British traditions is a complete joke. Ask any Indian Restaurant owner about the racists that regularly come into his shop for a curry. Or how about all the WHITE British people that think Morris Dancing is stupid.
We are losing our traditions in this country because we don't give a hoot for them, not because some immigrants are watering them down.
The BNP are just latching onto something that has NOTHING to do with immigration and twisting it and lying about it just to get their ideals across.
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"The BBC won`t allow me to quote Bob Whitaker`s "Mantra".Look it up on Google and you`ll see why.It tells the unvarnished truth about the massive immigration into white countries,and ONLY white countries.I can`t wait for the Tories to privatise the Beeb.Stalinist organ."
Maybe that's because only white countries are rich - or maybe its just love of the white man lol.
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Nick
While I have no sympathy with the BNP I am Sick and tired of generals admirals and what have you coming out of the forces after, in their case extemely cushy jobs all there lives and then denigrating the labour party for apparent shortcomings, that they failed to mention while in the forces, they invariably retire to that other cushy job for life as Tory peers, Dannat interview on sky TV was asked three time whether he had asked the government for two thousand troops to go to Afghanistan, not once did he give a direct answer he mumbled and rambled without once confirming the fact, All these guys we have them in every war should keep their noses right out of politics and out of the house of Lords, or for every high ranking officer allowed in there should be a ordinary serviceman to mirror these individuals.
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I note that MEPs have now been refused passes to the House of Commons. This has presumably been done to prevent BNP MEPs from having access. However it also prevents all the other parties MEPs getting in. I wonder how Europe feels about this? I mean, a lower level parliament denying access to its representatives?
Discuss.
BTW, I think you'll find this is on topic mods!
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#127 sagamix
23 is waffle
==================
So you're suggesting that all the main political parties should ignore issues that matter to the electorate?
Wouldn't it all be such simpler if citizens just shut up and did as they were told, eh, Saga?
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"hodgeey wrote:
#87 Mark_WE
"All women short-lists are not the same as banning men from attempting to become Tory MPs."
Don't talk daft!
All gay short-lists are not the same as banning heterosexuals from attempting to become Tory MPs.?
All coloured short-lists are not the same as banning whites from attempting to become Tory MPs?"
Not really sure of your point, if having gay, coloured and women only short lists were the same as banning people from the other groups the only MPs we would have would be ethnic lesbians!
I don't support the principle of shortlists but it is designed to boast representation for minorities and is not the same as banning members from "majorities"
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#57 its not just QT thats the problem R5_live I have phoned in about 50 times in the last year to talk about issues around social servies and the family courts and related topics' BUT never has my points been allowed to be presented.
And that is one of the roots of the problem
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123. At 12:10pm on 21 Oct 2009, writingsonthewall wrote:
I hope we will now get a procession of true war veterans who will point out to the BNP that they laid down their lives to fight Fascisism in the war.
*********************
At the same time perhaps we could also ask them that, if they had known that the UK was going to end up as it is today, would they have bothered fighting.
A clue to the answer: I am a war baby and still have relatives who fought in WW11.
A common theme amongst them is "Was it worth it?"
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96. At 11:29am on 21 Oct 2009, Walshicus wrote:
"People like me are immune to the BNP. It's the uneducated, the underclass of people in this country who just didn't apply themselves that will fall victim to them. Is it ironic that the people who shout loudest about their "Britishness" are usually the ones who have done little or nothing to improve Britain?"
That just about sums it up nicely - the people who tend to join the BNP are ones who like to blame everyone but themselves for their predicament - starting with the weakest and smallest.
There is a problem with giving the BNP a stage such as question time - what they say publicly is not what they believe privately.
Just as Hitler did, he didn't start with "all them jews are bad people" - he used the same tactics of appearing to be middle of the road and reasonable and once he had enough support he dragged the country to the far right.
However a large part of the blame for the rise of the BNP is all the lying and crooked politicians. Clearly the electorate is unhappy with all the major parties and the lack of choice between them. The system is un-democratic, I mean look at UKIP (currently the 4th biggest party) - agree with them or not, it's wrong a party should be made bankrupt and lose their political momentum for rules which the other parties break - but can afford to pay for.
Who said there were no barriers to democracy? - poppycock.
Maybe we solve the problem by having a an alliance against the BNP party and ditch the other mainstream parties alltogether.
....then we will really see how unpopular the BNP actually is - and not the unsubstantiated claims by Griffin that his party is growing and is filled with 'reasonable people' and not fascists.
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Fred @ 119
this country will never accept a racially mixed society
then this country isn't worth living in
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"The reality is immigration isn't costing Britains jobs, it's down to the free movement of capital out of the country at the moment."
I agree. Of course, one could ask why there is so much capital moving out of the country. I suspect it's down to having people in charge who have no expereince of the real world, just what they have gleaned in classrooms and from text books. Bit like thinking that just because you've read a book about football that you can be a striker for Man U.
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I have not watched Question Time for years because I have found the format to be sterile.
With respect, most of the QT audience are not very sophisticated in politics and are usually given a very predictable run-around by the political panellists.
Indeed, recently, QT was being broadcast when I switched the telly on and I observed that political panellist/MP Ming Campbell easily brushed off questions from the audience about MP's expenses and only floundered when closely questioned by chairman Dimbleby.
I doubt if I'll be watching QT tonight despite the directors effort to inject some controversy via Mr Griffin because I suspect it'll still turn out to be a pretty sterile debate.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I would take issue with the relevance of the size of the vote that the BNP got in the European elections. It's only because of our undemocratic first past the post system that a party which attracts significant support cannot make headway in national politics. That they don't is probably a blessing, but not an excuse for keeping the status quo.
I absolutely reject the policies of the BNP, though I would defend their right to espouse their point of view. Only by listening to and being able to combat their arguements will they be exposed as the biggotts they clearly are. It is extremely sad that a large minority of the UK public, both educated and less well educated, are willing to cast votes in the BNP's direction as some sort of "protest vote" against the main parties. Democracy isn't some sort of reality TV game - it's for real, and those that don't take it seriously will wind up with a government they simply wouldn't want.
Regarding the trivial point scoring about Spitfires, Poppys and old soldiers, I'm afraid that is largely irrelevant froth.
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40. At 10:15am on 21 Oct 2009, AndyC555 wrote:
"Around a million people voted for the BNP at the euro elections. A million!"
Yes, and about 60 million didn't - would you fancy your 60-1 odds?
Don't forget most of these million were from the same regions, and they would be the ones which have taken the brunt of the recession and who are looking to vent their anger.
....and you cannot blame immigrants for the recession can you?
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united_dreamer
Interesting link but don’t need to read anything more to persuade me that the BNP is not for me. Thanks anyhow.
The point that I’m making about Bernie Grant is this. Sit him next to Nick Griffin on QT and all Nick Griffin would have to do is point at him and say
“This is the Mayor of Haringey who praised the predominantly black youth population of Tottenham for “giving the police a good kicking” after the killing of PC Blakelock. The same mayor who used to campaigned for Rastafarians to be exempt form poll tax. The same Mayor who introduced courses in homosexuality into its nursery and primary schools” The same Mayor who banned all but Nicaraguan coffee. Bang on about 10 other loony left policies and boom bang you’ve handed over another half a million votes to him.
You want a heavy weight from an ethnic minority fine, then at least choose someone who isn’t an easy target. Shami Chakrabarti would be my man. But Sayeeda Warsi and Bonnie Greer should be able to handle him.
It will be interesting to see if you are right about him sitting next to black people as they will be on the panel. I suspect he wont have any problem with it.
Ps in replies use names not numbers. Easier to find.
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I'm all for giving the BNP as much exposure as possible - it is only though giving them the same chance to slip up as every other party has that the underlying nastiness which is their core belief will be exposed.
So Griffin tries the reverse game with the generals, most equate his party with the Nazis so he does the reverse and compares the critics - the allusion is particualrly nasty and unpleasant.
It is the same game which various "discriminated" groupings have successfully managed. Sure many will remember the reclaiming of terms of abuse to "positivise" them by other discriminated groups. So he is just having a go at this. Always remember Mr Griffin is really quite clever and well educated and certainly media savvy.
Like many politicians before it is only through long exposure that the real him and real BNP will become plain through those unguarded moments.
The BNP have long regarded themselves as being discriminated against so the pattern fits the response.
Don't get too much expectation about QT though - I am sure he is memorising the answers to the predictable questions and researching of his co panellists weak spots in these areas. It may be a show but don't expect a routing of the BNP in one show - they may appear to come out quite well unless someone else has done more than focussing on the headline areas. Try their economic, foreign, health etc. this will show them to be unfit.
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"united_dreamer wrote:
#93. While I do have a bit of sympathy for the banning of the scouse accent I do think the BNP goes further than being "just another" political party as their membership policy revealed."
Personally I believe that all parties should be allowed to set their own membership criteria - if a party want to have a policy that only certain races can be a member they can't take the moral ground when race comes into play. All the interviewer has to do is point to their membership policy"
"Their rank and file membership advocate a white first approach to policies. I never understood why a party that was pretty much openly racist were allowed to stand. Free speech is fine but when you advocate hate then you should be outlawed."
The problem is that you can't outlaw hatred - you can only outlaw the open declaration of hatred and the result of that will be that the feelings are hidden behind moderate words (which is what the BNP has been doing in recent years).
"The Muslim fundamentalist that was jailed (forget the name) did no more than talk but was imprisoned. Are you advocating that he should be allowed to stand or is the brainwashing of the weak minded only a Muslim susceptibility?"
I personally would not have a problem with him standing as an MP or there being a Muslim equivalent of the BNP, and I think he was jailed for incitement - and don't forget that the BNP leader was charged of race hate crimes but the conviction failed.
"By the way I agree with many of the things that you say - I just think that the BNP have for too long stretched the acceptable boundaries of democratic free speech. If they really have changed then they need to do a lot more to prove it."
I am of the mind that you can't have boundaries on free speech. If anything we need to give the BNP more airtime - treat them like any other party and force them to explain their policies and what they would mean for the people of this country.
If we ban them we run the risk of them forming a new outwardly innocent party but with the same racist core hidden away so no one can see it - we would have real problems if that happened.
"By the way - separate point - I do believe the BBC are just trying to get audience figures up with this stunt. Unfortunately it will work but the cost for me is too high."
I agree.
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Interesting comments from all parts of the political spectrum.My worry is the point where in the political circle the extreme right and left meet.History tells us that at the extreme ends of both philosophies the result is the same.eg,Hitler and Stalin.
My biggest concern is that in many areas of policy the BNP make interesting and valid points eg immigration,crime etc.Thus I view there potential rise as being only 1-2 personnel changes or tempering of policy away from actually presenting a credible alternative to the mainstream parties.Lets not hide from the facts here if they opened there party to all races and implemented a religion based approach(attracting other religious groups and campaigning on religion) rather than race, a united independant England approach (anti SNP/UK approach) and a reduced "Political Correct society" approach they would actually tap into the average working class/middle class voter who rightly or wrongly feels alienated by the mainstream political parties.
So it is better to face them up now and argue a more restrained policy than thier's but answers the fears of all the UK population.
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Of course if we have a hung parliment definitally the SNP and probable the BMP mp's will demand political favours and payments (ie more money for Scotland) with eavh and every vote.
Will thesde MP's be suspended from parliment for bringing parliment into disrepute by accepting political for their vote?
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136#
"Only white countries are rich."
Right.
So you class China, Japan, the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Brazil, Venezuela, Brunei et al as "white countries" do you?
Good grief....
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#135 'The problem here is that the national character of Britain is NOT being fundamentally changed by immigrants'.
Phew! For a minute there I thought it was! I must have been imagining all of those Mosques in Leicester, and the fact that all I can hear in Tescos on a Friday evening are foreign languages.
What a relief, it was all a bad dream. I can stop worrying now.
S'funny though - I'm sure I don't remember all of these things being as obvious to me 20 years ago, as they are to me now...oh well, my mistake...
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Can some one please ask the question at QT, "How many generations does a imigrants faimaly have to have lived in the UK before they are considered British?"
Are first borns British, or do we need to go back tens or hundreds of generations to gain the status?
My faimily following the line of Fathers back arrived in 1066, if you follow the line of mothers back we probably came accross with the vikings. Am I British, French or Norse? Would the BMP consider me British? After all the faimily has only been heer 943 years or so?
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I think it is naive to think that allowing Nick Griffin on QT will expose the weaknesses in his standpoint. It will expose his standpoint, one which resonates with a sizable minority of the population. Always has done, always will, unfortunately. He is no fool, and if extreme right-wing views were as flimsy as many people seem to think, then fascism would never be a serious threat. It is dangerously complacent to think that a moderate politician can easily defeat an extremist in debate. Wasn't Hitler rather good at working an audience? Moderate and balanced views often come across as insipid next to extremism, and Griffin will have vocal support among the audience.
I actually think UKIP has done more to undermine the BNP than most, by offering a haven for anyone not quite right-wing enough to join the Nazis.
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And since Nick Griffin is now an avowed fan of black humour, will he be inviting Lenny Henry to guest at the next BNP conference?
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I'm all for Britain but the BNP are not representative of Britain. However, being a party that stands its candidates for elections, I believe it is the right thing to have Nick Griffin on to debate with other party leaders.
On the other hand, I hope MPs consider this an extreme wake-up call and realise just how disillusioned everyone is with the more mainstream parties and the fact that they have proven themselves to not be representative of the people with all the things they get up to behind closed doors; is it surprising that people defect to other parties.
As Nick here has pointed out, Nick Griffin uses pictures of British forces to con people in to thinking he's a man of Britain for Britain. All this followed up by comparing those Generals to Nazis.
I don't think Nick Griffin really has a clue about anything but being of a minority party he will be in a better position to take the fight to the other candidates he'll be debating with.
I would never consider voting BNP but this appears to be the state of modern day politics; when you can't trust main parties and Nick Griffin, I'm sure, appeals to quite a few people who feel that the way things currently are that they have no voice in this country.
But we must remember why they seem to be doing so well, after all it's not that everybody is turning to the BNP but that everyone is turning away from politics and the main parties. Therefore, it's all well and good stating that they will challenge Nick Griffin over his policies and views but the real problem will be representing themselves to a public that thoroughly despises them right now so there may be a long road ahead before the BNP start fading away, asuming they do. After all, Britain is about the people and until main parties can convince us that they represent us, then this whole debate thing may be more of a waste of time in what they're hoping to achieve by exposing the BNP.
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127#
"fubar @ 84
look at posts 22 and 23
okay just done that ... 23 is waffle and 22 says we need to vote BNP to "fight Islam"
so that was a bit of a waste of time, wasn't it?"
You said it Saga.
You continue to see things through your "Clear Progressive" blinkers, so yes, trying to get you to see a point that I tried bashing through all day yesterday on Andrew's blog, was indeed a complete waste of time. I dont know why I bother sometimes.
You obviously dont have the brainpower, or the will, to absorb any other kind of political thought other than your own.
A true socialist, if ever I saw one.
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In a few weeks time Gordon Brown will stand at the Cenotaph to honour the millions who fought and died to stop Britain being ruled by another European power, and to preserve the British way of life.
He will do this knowing full well that he ,without protest or reference to the people, has eroded the British way of life and given away Britains right to rule itself to another European power.
And you wonder why the BNP exists??
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Right at the start of this posting, blogger number 3 got it absolutely spot on. There's really nothing else to say on this subject. Well done!
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For all the talk about Labour having abandoned their former supporters, it is more likely to be dissatisfied working class Tories that now support the BNP.
White working class groups (and unions) demonstrated against immigration dating back to the 1960s and were the most vocal supporters of Enoch Powell.
Thatcher and Tebbit attracted their vote away from the NF in the late 1970s and during the 1980s.
Labour’s strength was in the trade union movement organised in the industrial sector, mines, docks etc.
The decline of both the old industries and the strength of the trade unions over the past 40 years resulted in the present day rump of white working class; many facing long term unemployment, are low skilled and low educated and so on. (Labour had to reinvent itself and appeal to the middle class in order to maintain a realistic chance of electoral success.)
It’s hardly surprised this white working class rump now feel marginalised; I doubt Cameron (or Clegg) now appeals to them any more than Brown does.
As long as the BNP appeals mainly to the resentments of this group then it will never be more than a fringe party. But reconnecting with this rump of white working class is a challenge, for the mainstream parties, the Tories in particular.
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#142 At the same time perhaps we could also ask them that, if they had known that the UK was going to end up as it is today, would they have bothered fighting. A clue to the answer: I am a war baby and still have relatives who fought in WW11.
A common theme amongst them is "Was it worth it?"
Ignoring the fact that most of them didn't have a choice have you ANY idea what Britian was like in the 1930s and 40's? Kids used to die of minor illnesses because their parents couldn't afford a doctor, if you lost your job then you starved and you had virtually no recourse to law if you WERE sacked because your manager didn't like you (especially if you were gay/irish/black/catholic etc) or because you'd been horribly maimed at work. Most kids left school in their early teens with minimal education and minimal chance of doing anything with their lives other than follow their parents into manual dangerous labour.
'What Britian has become' is one of the richest countries on earth with a remarkably long life expectancy, superb free health service and so much food that obesity is a bigger problem than disease.
The fact that a very few muslims occasionally blow themselves up is no different to the occaisonal Irish/Anarchist terrorists we've put up with for the past 150 years and a minor inconvenience compared to the major european wars we used to fight every generation or so.
You should appreciate the fact that you CAN complain about Britain freely... under Adolph you'd have vanished into 'night and fog' for complaining..... but of course Griffin says that didn't happen doesn't he?
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#144 'then this country isn't worth living in'
Bye then...
BTW, The Brits have no problem with a racially mixed nation - as long as we don't feel threatened by sheer numbers, or by people who want us dead. Obviously. Oh, that's where we are now...
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'...It is worth remembering that the party remains a very small force.'
Yes it is. They probably have no more real support than the Christian parties, the Rainbow Alliance and umpteen other parties you could name. But we're not going to see these parties on the telly, are we? The BBC are quite disgraceful in their courting of the BNP just to be controversial. They have been given a platform to spout their beliefs, and more publicity than they could ever have dreamed of. And for what? They have no realistic chance of getting into power and no proper, workable policies. Putting them on the TV serves no good purpose and detracts from the serious business that does need to be discussed.
Wny the BBC insists on acting like commercial TV - going for the lowest common denominator to grab attention and ratings - when it's a publicly-funded channel that doesn't need to do this is shameful and totally beyond me. The media sometimes need to focus on the more mundane realities and keep the sensationalist stuff in context, or they risk damaging society even more than they already have.
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148. At 12:58pm on 21 Oct 2009, ATNotts wrote:
....Regarding the trivial point scoring about Spitfires, Poppys and old soldiers, I'm afraid that is largely irrelevant froth.
**************
If you regard the death of four of my relatives who died fighting for the freedom of this Country in WW11, as ' irrelevant froth'then you Sir/Madam are a disgrace and don't even deserve the small bit of freedom that we are currently still allowed to have.
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I just hope that the other panellistsare on the ball and will put this rascist in his place.
Sadly, if Common's exchanges are anything to go by, I fear Nick Griffin is going to come out of this looking good
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I personally can't see why the BNB can't go on question time. They are a political party which is gaining a large number of voters so i think they deserve to be heard. Like it or not they are gainging support especially as people are fed up with the Labour PC notion that if you mention immigration you are automaticly declaired a racist. I do not support or agree with the BNB's veiws just as I do not agree with the other political parties but I do not think that is a good enough reason to stop them speaking. If you don't like them, don't vote for them, if we stopped every political party we didn't like speaking on QT then there will be no QT.
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143#
Precisely.
The previously Labour core vote that doesnt include the self-loathing Champagne Socialists of Islington and Hampstead....
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@62
dotconnect said:
"When it comes to freedom of belief and expression, the BNP have more in common with extremist Islam than their adherents ever care to admit."
Let's not talk about extremeist islam. Let's talk about the Koran. It contains many specific commands on muslims to go to war and to kill non-muslims. There is not one passage in the Koran that tells muslims to love anyone but another muslim. This is why the majority of alleged moderate muslims do not take to the streets to say that terrorism and murder of opponents is wrong. Where does the BNP instruct its members to wage war and kill?
Where does the BNP say that they want to remove the vote from non-british people? That's the policy of the islamic party Hizb ut-Tahrir. They want an islamic state in the UK. Islamists in power will murder homosexuals. They will murder apostates.
Even so-called "moderate" muslims have shown they will call for and support mob violence and the summary execution of those who disagree with them. In 1989 the authorities did not take people like Kalim Siddiqui seriously - otherwise this moderate muslim leader (the founder of the Muslim Parliament) would have got 10 years in prison for incitement to murder. http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/reviewofbooks_article/6597/
We've subsequently realised that islam is an irrational, violent and anti-democratic force. And only the BNP is prepared to tackle this. It's the rest of the parties we should be angry with, not the BNP.
The muslims think they will have political control of many european countries by the latter half of the twentieth century. The UK population is set to rise by 10 million in the next 20 years. Earlier this year Shahid Malik MP has predicted a muslim PM of the UK before that.
Wake up. Read the Koran.
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"Now Conservatives are reacting to fears that the BNP is successfully hijacking traditional symbols of patriotism - the flag, the Spitfire and the poppy. Hence the campaign organised by two well-connected Tory activists which shot to prominence yesterday when a group of senior military figures joined the fray."
Hijacking? What hijacking? They've had this type of backdrop for some time. It's about Britain and being British. What IS wrong with that? Why hasn't the SNP attracted the same outcry for wanting Scotland for the Scots?
The only reason the BNP are branded racist is because they're white. If they were of another race they'd probably be applauded for their community effort. What if a Police Officer decided to start a "White Police Association". It would be condemned as racist. Yet we have Black, Asian and Muslim Police Associations and they're fine.
So let's get real.
I think publicity is always good if you want it - it's important to keep in the public eye. The BNP will always attract publicity simply because it's addressing some very real concerns that the PC liberals and mainstreamers don't want to speak about, far happier as they are to hope the problem(s) will go away - at least, they hope they'll somehow be able to wriggle out of responsibility when the thing erupts as sure it will.
Look at the news today: the population of the UK will increase 10 million in a decade. There is no more space here. There is no money to stretch the free handouts, health, housing and whatever, further. Someone at some time will have to deal with it.
Yes?
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129. sagamix
Its what the man in the street wants and its what NuLabour have failed to deliver or even address.
Your path will just deliver the BNP more votes, no doubt about that.
What the BNP fear most of all would be for the main stream parties to move towards addressing the issues that their less extreme members care about.
The tactic is to win over the moderates and forget about the extremists. Heck even the Popes giving it a go.
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Wow I'm shocked at how Racist so many people appear to be, truth be told it makes me a firmer believer in Scottish independence just to get a away from the increasingly BNP Loving English.
Seriously though, stop Immigration? pull out of the EU? Deport immigrates. These are idea I find abhorrent. Sorry to break it to some of you but the British Empire died long ago and without the EU Britain would be a virtual irrelevance on the world stage, in a large part due to the decline it would suffer post withdrawal. As for those against immigration this country was built Immigrates, try watching a simple documentary called Mongrel nation, its presented by Eddie Izzard.
Before I go have to take issue with one BNP support on this blog that being uk- anti- racist comment number 22. Basically I’m calling BS on your comment as your account was been created today to comment on this only article I’m confident your claim to be a gay man with an Asian partner is pure fantasy and are more than likely a straight white guy with no Asian friends let alone lovers. Also while your claim the raise of Islam is a threat to Europe isn’t racist it strike me a both wrong and bigoted.
As for the BNP being on QT yes they should be there and hopeful there foulness will be exposed.
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At #150 Carrots;) (sorry but I copy and paste the bit of the article I'm addressing and your name is too long to remember so one has to be sacrificed;))
“This is the Mayor of Haringey who praised the predominantly black youth population of Tottenham for “giving the police a good kicking” after the killing of PC Blakelock. The same mayor who used to campaigned for Rastafarians to be exempt form poll tax. The same Mayor who introduced courses in homosexuality into its nursery and primary schools” The same Mayor who banned all but Nicaraguan coffee. Bang on about 10 other loony left policies and boom bang you’ve handed over another half a million votes to him."
Loony left (he did a lot of positive things in the main) but not hate filled - the full quote was "The youths around here believe the police were to blame for what happened on Sunday and what they got was a bloody good hiding." and he later apologised to Blakelock's family. Also the "killer" was wrongly convicted by the police so they are not entirely without blame in the affair and the lead up to it.
But your assertion about Grant misses my point. Griffin taps into a racist component in our community which is ordinarily suppressed giving them the confidence to express themselves often in a violent way. This is dangerous and must be stopped as it has no place in a free democratic country. Intimidation of a minority is illegal.
My advocation of Grant is simpler than that though. He was a very direct character with a physical presence and well versed in cutting through the political niceties and that can be intimidating to someone who's only used to handling the political arenas and only spreading his parties more violent side with people of a like minded persuasion. His directness would have undermined Griffin's defences in a way that he will not be used to. And the view of a visibly intimidated (and he would be) Griffin fighting for words would undermine him in a far more persuasive way than gentle political jousting and wordplay ever would. And it would be hilarious to watch (you can't forget the entertainment value).
Still it will never happen. Another thought was an entirely non-white panel but for Griffin. A vision of a dicomfited Griffin would be my only intention as a picture would undermine the average BNP supporter in a way no politician's words could.
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125. At 12:11pm on 21 Oct 2009, united_dreamer wrote:
...
By the way I agree with many of the things that you say - I just think that the BNP have for too long stretched the acceptable boundaries of democratic free speech. If they really have changed then they need to do a lot more to prove it.
--------------------------------
The concept of the 'acceptable boundaries of democratic free speech' is utter nonsense. It's like saying my spending power in unlimited up to the balance in my bank account.
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"All publicity is good publicity" is a bald statement but in this case it may very well be true.
As the BNP is a populist -some would say demagogic-their message will resonate with a large minority of the electorate.
The biggest hurdle for the BNP is the lack of funds and press support.As they can't finance the campaigns of many candidates they rely on membership fees and small donations-therefore they must encourage publicity to draw people to their web sight and literature.
Someone wrote the that 1 million votes is a small proportion of 60 million...but that's not reality , there are not close to that number eligible to voters ,and fewer still who bother to vote.That number of votes being drawn off by the BNP is what scares the major parties- not any fear that they will form a government.Labour in particular is afraid it will lose enough votes to tip the balance in an election.
I don't buy the contention...."Tory argues, the BNP leader's linking of two distinguished former generals with Nazi war criminals shows the value of exposing the party's arguments."
Many people were not aware the BNP was as against the Iraq and Afghan wars ...now they are..and that is a wrong headed, but popular idea.
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164. At 1:35pm on 21 Oct 2009, SheffTim wrote:
For all the talk about Labour having abandoned their former supporters, it is more likely to be dissatisfied working class Tories that now support the BNP.
White working class groups (and unions) demonstrated against immigration dating back to the 1960s and were the most vocal supporters of Enoch Powell.
Thatcher and Tebbit attracted their vote away from the NF in the late 1970s and during the 1980s.
Labour’s strength was in the trade union movement organised in the industrial sector, mines, docks etc.
The decline of both the old industries and the strength of the trade unions over the past 40 years resulted in the present day rump of white working class; many facing long term unemployment, are low skilled and low educated and so on. (Labour had to reinvent itself and appeal to the middle class in order to maintain a realistic chance of electoral success.)
It’s hardly surprised this white working class rump now feel marginalised; I doubt Cameron (or Clegg) now appeals to them any more than Brown does.
As long as the BNP appeals mainly to the resentments of this group then it will never be more than a fringe party. But reconnecting with this rump of white working class is a challenge, for the mainstream parties, the Tories in particular.
--------------------------------------------
Nice speech - pity its so utterly and completely wrong.
Its the Labour heartlands that have turned to the BNP - mostly the 'anyone but Tory' brigade.
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"136#
"Only white countries are rich."
Right.
So you class China, Japan, the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Brazil, Venezuela, Brunei et al as "white countries" do you?
Good grief...."
There a huge number of South Asians in UAE and Saudo Arabia - probably more as a percentage of the population than in the UK. Japan is an interesting exception.
Brazil, China and Venzuela have nowhere near the per capita wealth of the average white country nor do they have the welfare state. But there are plenty of non white people in both Brazil and Venzuela regardless. Again far more than in the UK. In China most people are very poor. I know I have been there.
The original post that I responded was pulled though. Had you read it you might have understood my tone.
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22. At 09:42am on 21 Oct 2009, uk-anti-racist wrote:
"I am voting for the BNP, even though some of their policies could negatively affect my life - I'm gay and married to an asian, and the BNP want to get rid of civil partnerships and "inter-racial" marriages.
My partner will also be voting for them. One doesn't have to agree with everything a party says in order to vote for it. No party has every provided me with everything I want. My partner has no fear of forced deportation because that is not the BNP policy."
If you seriously believe that the BNP won't begin deportation at the earliest oppurtunity, I'm afraid you are living in La La Land. If they ever gain power, you should quickly prepare yourself to wave goodbye to your partner just before you are thrown into a labour camp.
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165. At 1:37pm on 21 Oct 2009, Peter_Sym wrote:
#142
.............You should appreciate the fact that you CAN complain about Britain freely...
**************************
May I suggest that you take a 'Gordon must Go' (or words of your own choice) banner and stand in front of Parliament.
Then please come back and tell us how long you were 'freely allowed to complain.'
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The very fact that we have examples of 'turkeys voting for Christmas' here demonstrates that we need to being the BNP's 'policies' into the open. They have stated they will ban mixed race marriages. They have stated they will stop civil partnerships (their supporters are some of the most homophobic members of society). And, one of their senior members is on the record as saying that rape is no worse than force-feeding a woman cake! Let them talk I say.
White supremacy, which they at present continue to advocate, would not solve any of the problems the country is facing.
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"LippyLippo wrote:
'...It is worth remembering that the party remains a very small force.'
Yes it is. They probably have no more real support than the Christian parties, the Rainbow Alliance and umpteen other parties you could name. But we're not going to see these parties on the telly, are we? The BBC are quite disgraceful in their courting of the BNP just to be controversial."
To my knowledge known of those parties have MEPs, which is why the BBC now feels it needs to give them airtime.
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#13
"If we are happy to let deluded romantic fantasists humiliate themselves for the public entertainment on X factor, why not on Question Time ?"
This tickled me! But really, I'm sure I heard recently that Simon Cowell was considering politics? In a Homer kinda way, I can see it now.......!
*My Point*
History has shown that right-wing fascist dictators, have often met their shortcomings, sooner than expected.
As is said, "Give 'em enough rope!" .............
BBC1, Thursday evening, I can't wait! (OMG)
Please inform ze British National Grid!
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Interesting isn't it.
People are saying the BNP shouldn't be heard because they don't agree with them, and yet the SNP who got significantly less votes than the BNP at the last nationwide election are considering legal action to force all TV stations to include them in any national debates (at least if they are to be screened in Scotland).
Perhaps if people dealt with the issues and fought the BNP on those rather than resorting to hysterical knee jerk reactions something more constructive would be achieved (i.e. the exposure of the BNP for what it is and it being consigned to being a marginal irrelevance) .
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Most of us must be looking on in mild amusement at the panic that appears to have set into the other political parties at the mere mention of the BNP.
The attack dogs are certainly out but all they are doing is lending even more credibility to Nick Griffin who so far has managed to evade the sticks and stones quite effectively.
I find it strange that all of a sudden the BNP are actually seen as a threat rather than as a protest vote for those disillusioned with our current politicians who are most certainly no angels.
On a serious note the current hysteria being drummed up could infuriate some people into thinking that freedom of speech is being curtailed and this could lead to many beginning to consider them as a serious alternative.
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"This week may mark an important shift in the way in which the other parties handle the threat from the British National Party"
At least someone has come out and finally admitted it. Labour and the Tories are afraid that given a commercial political platform such as Question Time, viewers will realise Nick Griffin is not the person demonised by our obscenely biased, Zionist propaganda peddling mainstream media.
Mark my words, tomorrow night you will see a man who is articulate, well educated, coherant and best of all politically incorrect. In addition, he will have far more to talk about than simply immigration.
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76. At 11:02am on 21 Oct 2009, Andy-in-France wrote:
"I will conclude with one example. They intend to 'deport the ten's of thousand's of foreign criminals' currently in British prisons. An interesting figure - the latest (16 October) figures for the prison population is 84,702. Exactly how many 10's of 1000's are they talking about? Is, say, one fifth of it really overseas nationals? "
Per the Prison Service website:
"In the last ten years the number of foreign nationals in prison has doubled and now represents over 14% of the total prison population in England and Wales"
So that would be about 12k... not really "tens of thousands"...
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Big mistake by the BBC and typical to see everyone closing ranks on it. There's a fundamental confusion within your organisation between being allowed the freedom to hold a view which Griffin has in our democracy and having the right to disseminate it through publicly funded channels which he does not have. The stuff about political parties and balance is very C20 in this multimedia world and nothing to do with the BBC either.
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addendum to # 189
in fact to be accurate...
according to the prison reform trust
"At 30 September 2007 there were 11211 foreign national prisoners (defined as non-UK passport holders), 14% of the overall prison population"
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I predict that Nick Griffin will do very well on Question Time. He is Cambridge Univesity educated, articulate, persuasive and experienced. And moreover, many people will agree with much of what he says.
Many people in Britain (of all races) are extremely concerned about the huge rises in immigration in the last 5 years, especially since the opening up of the EU. The country is changing beyond recognition. We are the only country in the world that allows this to happen. It is one thing to be fair and tolerant, but a line has to be drawn somewhere and common sense has to kick in - especially where people born and living in this country (of whatever race) are already suffering due to the economic crisis.
It is the Labour government that is primarily responsible for this situation. It is a disgrace. Not only has it been incredibly incompetent in its handling of the asylum and immigration system, it brands as racist anyone who expresses concerns about it. The Conservatives have been concerned about the issue for years (remember back in 2001 the failing asylum and immigration system was a key issue of William Hague's General Election Campaign). It is the ridiculous "politically correct" Labour government that has tried to take the issue off the political agenda and ignored it, labelling as "racist" anyone who mentions it - and allowed MILLIONS of people from overseas to come and live in Britain and take advantage of its benefits. The Government is so incompetent that it has even lost track of the figures, and its predictions have been grossly inaccurate. The British public have been very badly deceived.
This is what has created a gap which the BNP is filling. For many people this is the central issue that concerns them most.
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176. united_dreamer
Thats ok CARROTS will do.
No Im not missing your point, I follow, I merely point out that he was not a figure that Mr mainstream uk will identify with and certainly not one that a marginal BNP supporter will follow. He did much that was ridiculed by the mainstream press and is regarded as a bit of a joke now. He may be plain speaking but much of what he said was tripe.
Sure the BNP tap into a racist element that’s not the problem. The problem is that they are the only party that tap into the “We are fed up with the problems of mass immigration and want it stopped” argument. These people are not racist and are not hate filled, they just don’t want to be surrounded by newcomers and don’t want their public services swamped. Especially as they see no economic benefits from economic migration.
The rise in popularity of the BNP is a symptom of NuLabours failure here. When the Tories tried to raise the issue of mass immigration at the last election Labour branded them as racist and their argument stuck. They played the race card on a nationalistic matter not a race matter and now this is the price. They failed to follow that stopping “foreign nationals” coming here on mass is not a “race” issue it is one of “nationality”.
I have no problem with economic migration but then I’m not broke and living on the edge of poverty. People like me and the ruling classes that allow this free movement of labour don’t pay the price. We all live in nice big houses well away from the areas these new migrants swamp. We even get cheap cleaners and plumbers that tout for our business with endless leaflets through our letter boxes. Our companies thrive on the fresh competition for jobs and costs remain low.
So my point is this. Until you address the issues that sagamix thinks are irresolvable then you had better get used to an ever rising BNP and an ever popular Nick Griffin and banning him will just make him more popular. People always want what the state tells them they can not have.
As to your last point, 2 black panellists should be enough, anymore and that would just look like a set up.
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"The concept of the 'acceptable boundaries of democratic free speech' is utter nonsense. It's like saying my spending power in unlimited up to the balance in my bank account."
Like it or not the boundary has already been drawn. There are people in Britain in prison now just for what they said. They go under the banner of Islamic extremists. I suggest the BNP and nasty Nick should be similarly categorised.
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165. At 1:37pm on 21 Oct 2009, Peter_Sym wrote:
#142 At the same time perhaps we could also ask them that, if they had known that the UK was going to end up as it is today, would they have bothered fighting. A clue to the answer: I am a war baby and still have relatives who fought in WW11.
A common theme amongst them is "Was it worth it?"
Ignoring the fact that most of them didn't have a choice have you ANY idea what Britian was like in the 1930s and 40's?
**************
Er Peter. You have obviously misread or not understood my comment.
The phrase 'Was it worth it?' is from people who are alive today and DID LIVE through the '30s and '40s. They surely are in a better position to both judge and compare the 'then and now'
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"186. At 2:47pm on 21 Oct 2009, Reaper_of_Souls wrote:
Interesting isn't it.
People are saying the BNP shouldn't be heard because they don't agree with them"
I don't think that's a fair summary at all. I don't agree with the Tory party but I don't want them banned. Antipathy towards the BNP goes a little bit deeper than not agreeing with them.
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181. Chris_O re uk-anti-racist
Wise up Chris this girl uk-anti-racist is almost certainly a BNP drone.
She only registered today to blog here on this one topic.
She claims to be a gay girl married to an Asian guy
She claims both are voting BNP
Just laugh, its the best tatic.
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#165 'The fact that a very few muslims occasionally blow themselves up is no different to the occaisonal Irish/Anarchist terrorists we've put up with for the past 150 years and a minor inconvenience compared to the major european wars we used to fight every generation or so'
I think this is the mistake we're making when I say that we're sleepwalking to our doom. The 'few Muslims who occasionally blow thenselves up', (try saying that to the victims of the tube bombings), are now homegrown, and from middle class backgrounds with university degrees. The 'moderate' muslims here at the moment are from the older generations still living with the influence of the British Empire. The new generation will be taught along 'proper' Islamic lines, and will therefore be more radical than their parents, and therefore more of a problem. Also, Irish terrorists were not representives of the Catholic church with a mission to convert us all to their theological beliefs. It really doesn't matter how much we deny it, Islam will infiltrate our society to the point where it will be too late to do anything about it. I believe that one of Labour's main advisors on matters Islamic is in fact a founding member of the Islamic Brotherhood. Reasurring, eh?
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"I find it strange that all of a sudden the BNP are actually seen as a threat rather than as a protest vote for those disillusioned with our current politicians who are most certainly no angels."
Again quite an academic standpoint. Wherever they get voted in racist attacks go on the increase. Our current politicians are most definitely angels compared to the BNP. This simple protest vote may be no threat to you maybe but this simple protest vote will never affect you directly so you can be as blase as you like about the real impact to real people's lives.
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We live in the era of the quick fix and the public loves it: 14m watching a show in which thousands of people try to become famous, though many have put very little effort or thought into achieving anything other than fame (e.g. ability to sing), millions watch a show in which a sneering 'observation' is justified as legitimate comment, millions borrowed money beyond their means so that they could have bigger houses, newer cars and the latest toy from Apple, Nokia, Sony etc.
Along comes the BNP who tap into this culture and a minotity takes the bait. Simple 'commonsense' ideas which sound good but do not address the whole picture, but put the blame on 'other people' for the state of this country. A quick fix for all our ills.
The problem is the decline in the level of debate. Compare papers like the Mirror or the Mail now and 50 years ago. There are thoughtful articles in today's editions, but look at the general level of the papers. Our country has forgotten how to think and form opinions. We just settle for the quick fix. What do we expect where the highest level of poltical debate is the name calling called PMQs?
All these account for the strength of the BNP. I said that it is a minority that they appeal to. Let's hope that there are not many more 'quick fixers' around to be drawn into their appealing web.
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189
You might conclude that they are referring not just to present prison population. I suspect that if you add up numbers of ex cons, you might indeed breach tens of thousands.
Not really the point though.
I'm a bit tired of talking about the BNP, so I will simplify my stance to a couple of sentences.
Disagree almost entirely with everything about them.
However I understand fully why some people feel so desperate they might want to vote for them despite their more odious policies. I do however think such people should think carefully about the potential consequences of their vote. The only people on this board who have openly admitted to an intention to vote BNP are an enviously raging class warrior (hates "toffs") and a self confessed biggot (some pretty disgusting things said about Muslims). Those are the people you will be throwing your lot in with.
And in no way should they be denied an opportunity to speak on the publicly funded BBC. The people who voted for them pay their licence fees just like everyone else, and have a right to hear their elected representatives on the same platform as everyone elses.
Rather than panicking, reacting, and trying to subdue any voice they disagree with, the government might be better advised to improve its own performance so people don't sink to the level of the BNP.
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OK so back from the bar-resto to catch up on 70 odd posts. Glad to discover that at last I'm getting more than anodyne comments from other bloggers!
Ref my #76 and the following:
#95 I also like the idea of National Service - but not the ideology behind its current proponents - my whole point in my post at #76
#99 Quoi? Fully agree with Saga's full argument? Read my post - I said I agreed with his CONCLUSIONS at #48 - not with his list of sardonically correct list of effective BNP propositions. If you have read Saga as often as I have, you would know that he would never agree with those ideas - and neither do I!
# 108 - well, I'll get around to reading it sometime!
# 132 Come on - I think (therefore I exist) that Saga as usual was being ironic/sarcastic. As I said in my original at #76 I don't often agree with him, but this time he was/is right (IMHO)
And while I'm here - why no fuss about UKIP having no appearance on QT? Or is that next month's topic Nick?
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165. At 1:37pm on 21 Oct 2009, Peter_Sym wrote:
#142
.............You should appreciate the fact that you CAN complain about Britain freely...
**************************
May I suggest that you take a 'Gordon must Go' (or words of your own choice) banner and stand in front of Parliament.
Then please come back and tell us how long you were 'freely allowed to complain.'
Longer than if you stood with a 'Gordon must go' in my front garden or I strongly suspect yours. The fact that there are certain places where you cannot stand about protesting does not mean that Britain is the third Reich.
Stand outside the reichstag in 1944 with an 'Adolph must go' placard and it would be an interesting toss-up to see whether you be beheaded like the White Rose lot or hung with piano wire like the generals who tried to blow him up. Without doubt your entire family would go to a concentration camp and anyone who even knew you would be given a hard time by the SD or gestapo.
THAT was the society people like my grandparents fought against. My grandfather fought alongside the Indian 3rd division at El Alamein and helped liberate Belsen. He has no desire to see Britain become what Griffin would have it become which is why I get so angry about him hijacking the reputation of our veterans and even rewriting history.
His description of the spitfire as 'a symbol of Britain standing alone against European tryanny' is a perfect example: Britain fought shoulder to shoulder with France, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Norway, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Greece, Malta plus 50,000 Irishmen from 'neutral' Eire, plus most of Yugoslavia, the majority of the Italians and we recieved useful aid from 'neutral' Portugal and Sweden too.
Outside of Europe we fought with Jordan (who declared war on Germany the same day we did), 2 Million volunteers from the Indian army, the USA, USSR, Canada, New Zealand, Australia & China against the axis.
The two regiments with the most VCs in the British army are the Ghurkas and the Sikhs from the old British Indian Army. Private Johnson BeHarry didn't even have a British passport when he won the VC fighting in Iraq so would be top of Griffin's 'deport' list.
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Why on earth is everyone getting so excited about a party that appears to have few supporters and voters let alone friends and policies that all the other parties can rip to shreds as being utter nonsense??
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carrots @ 174
Your path will just deliver the BNP more votes, no doubt about that
doubt it ... I'd ban them
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#192.
Totally agree.
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188. At 2:56pm on 21 Oct 2009, Cynical_Dragon wrote:
"At least someone has come out and finally admitted it. Labour and the Tories are afraid that given a commercial political platform such as Question Time, viewers will realise Nick Griffin is not the person demonised by our obscenely biased, Zionist propaganda peddling mainstream media."
This will presumably be the 'zionist' BBC who won't release the Balen report into their anti-Israeli bias of their middle-east reporting is it?
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dragon @ 188
tomorrow night you will see a man who is articulate, well educated, coherant
yes I quite like Dimbleby
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I am not allowed, certainly through the bbc, to experss my deep feelings about Islam and Muslims.
I am convinced that that type of religion is not good for this country or Europe and technological progression in general.
That religion and the people who follow it live too far in the past. Only middle-class fools (mainly rich students ie.UAF), who don't have to live with it on a daily basis, believe otherwise.
For all his faults I support Nick Griffin, but I don't believe he should appear on question time. People are far too blind (or too scared) to take notice of what's really going on.
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fubar @ 161
You obviously don't have the brainpower to absorb any other kind of political thought other than your own
I have a kind of shield against soft head reactionary mush if that's what you mean
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breakfast @ 163
Right at the start of this posting, blogger number 3 got it absolutely spot on. There's really nothing else to say on this subject.
er no ... zero mention of banning the BNP in number 3 as far as I can see
did I miss it?
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#44 Carrots
"It’s a very slipper slope when the institutions like the BBC and for that matter you two decide which democratically elected party (with 6% of the EU vote) get air time and which ones don’t."
Of course you are right - but we need to recognise that there are also other slopes, equally slippery, when a party would claim democratic rights for themselves which they would deny others if they ever had the opportunity. (eg The Nazi party, after a slow start, did well in the 1930 election.)
Nick asks, "Is all publicity good publicity?". In this context, I would have to say yes, because even negative publicity would tend to attract those who leant in that direction to begin with. But how we address this is the real dilemma!
The BBC has a difficult line to walk and its track record on giving a platform to racists is rather mixed. The House Rules for these blogs are quite clear, but of late we have seen a steady increase of racist views and opinions elsewhere - including some quite nasty stuff aimed at Black and Jewish communities as well as questioning whether the Holocaust really happened.
Thankfully, Nick's blog has mostly (but not entirely) avoided this. At the risk of 'cross infection', I might draw your attention to other discussions on Stepahnomics, going back to earlier blogs including Gotcha , Asset sale: Deja vu?, and Count it, don't follow it (redux). (There are other examples, some have been removed)
You sometimes have look at the links contained within the message to get the gist of what is actually being said.
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aardvark @ 166
The Brits have no problem with a racially mixed nation - as long as we don't feel threatened by sheer numbers
oh good
because approx 90 pc (more?) of our population is white caucasian at present so I guess all is cool
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sweet @ 177
The concept of the 'acceptable boundaries of democratic free speech' is utter nonsense. It's like saying my spending power in unlimited up to the balance in my bank account
not seeing that ... what on earth do you mean?
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The idea that the BNP is a legitimate party is plainly ridiculous. They want to expel British citizens from the country simply because of their ethnic origin. They tell some unconvincing lies about peaceful persuasion and incentives, but we all (including their supporters) know what that really means. After all, how do you persuade people to do something they have already said they have no interest in doing?
So we have a political party that wants to use the democratic system to gain power and then deprive certain segments of society of the rights this same system guarantees.
There's no way that I could ever regard such a group as legitimate or indeed worthy of anything but the deepest contempt.
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194. At 3:18pm on 21 Oct 2009, united_dreamer wrote:
"The concept of the 'acceptable boundaries of democratic free speech' is utter nonsense. It's like saying my spending power in unlimited up to the balance in my bank account."
Like it or not the boundary has already been drawn. There are people in Britain in prison now just for what they said. They go under the banner of Islamic extremists. I suggest the BNP and nasty Nick should be similarly categorised.
-------------------------------------
You think missed my point - I wasn't arguing about whether we have freedom of speech or not, just that you can't have 'freedom of speech within limit' which is how you phrased it.
While people are being locked up for what they said, then we don't have 'boundaries of democratic free speech', we have 'boundaries of speech'. The small but rather significant word 'free' just doesn't sit in that sentence at all.
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205. At 3:42pm on 21 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
carrots @ 174
Your path will just deliver the BNP more votes, no doubt about that
doubt it ... I'd ban them
------------------------
fascist
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#172 said "Let's talk about the Koran. It contains many specific commands on muslims to go to war and to kill non-muslims."
Care to quote chapter and verse as you are such a theological scholar?
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Perhaps we know from this feature how the BBC view the BNP , look as the picture of Nick Griffin at the top of this page , demoninc or what , he will not get a fair crack of the whip on QT , I think the debate will be allowed to be overrun by left wing loonies who have already said they will protest at the appearance of Griffin .
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"205. At 3:42pm on 21 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
carrots @ 174
Your path will just deliver the BNP more votes, no doubt about that
doubt it ... I'd ban them"
Obviously.
It's the left-wing way. "We are the most tolerant and will ban anyone who says we are not"
Opposing views will not be allowed.
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205. sagamix
Ahhh but thankfully your socialist thought police are not in power, and the feeble attempt that was NuLabour are in tatters and about to be booted out by a very fed up electorate.
I actually think that people like you are a far bigger threat to my way of life.
The slow creep of worthy socialist control under the guise of state care over what I can and can not see, hear, read and do is far more dangerous to me than 750k protest votes against your kind.
The majority of those 1 million votes are not votes for Griffin, they are protest votes against NuLabour party and many of your ideals.
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"While people are being locked up for what they said, then we don't have 'boundaries of democratic free speech', we have 'boundaries of speech'. The small but rather significant word 'free' just doesn't sit in that sentence at all."
Huh?
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555 @ 220
It's the left-wing way. "We are the most tolerant and will ban anyone who says we are not"
well the BNP anyway - a party based on Racial Discrimination
(RD being illegal in this country, I believe?)
but you seem quite keen on defending them, Andy
bit odd
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this is my last thought on the subject on here I ahve read as many of the posts today as I can and have impressed by points made by both sides , however what many appear to be missing is what this country could gain from BNP standpoint .
Their policies are too radical for the majority but then so was sinn fein in the 70,s and look how the goverment havve got into bed with them.
By taking on the concerns of many in this country over immigration and ethnic groups appearing to take the upper hand in many inner city areas the leading parties could make themselves more electable and appeal to the disenfranchised white classes within the electorate , politics is after all an amalgum of veiw points and nobody could feasible see a radicle right wing party succeeding , but if there policies were toned down , who knows
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anybody @ 217
Fascist!
not possible, Sweet ... a clear thinking progressive CANNOT be a fascist
even if they try, they can't
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#198. What do the victims of the tube bombings have to do with the number of muslims who blow themselves up? Four succeeded and Four attempted to do the same two weeks later. Thats out of 1.5 million UK muslims. The 52 dead that day are a fraction of the 3000 who die on the roads each year yet no-one is seriously saying that cars are dragging us to our doom.
What scares me more than anything is that if you substitute 'Muslim' for 'Jew' in Hitlers writting then its pretty much mimicks the claims on this site. That should be a warning from history. If, like me you'd actually seen death camps and mass graves (Croatia 1996) you might be more cautious in your support for ultra nationalism. It rarely ends nicely.
Incidentally being 'people of the book' the Koran DOES NOT demand conversion of Jews or Christians and indeed prohibits forced conversion as meaningless.
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214. At 3:58pm on 21 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
sweet @ 177
The concept of the 'acceptable boundaries of democratic free speech' is utter nonsense. It's like saying my spending power in unlimited up to the balance in my bank account
not seeing that ... what on earth do you mean?
AND ---
222. At 4:18pm on 21 Oct 2009, united_dreamer wrote:
"While people are being locked up for what they said, then we don't have 'boundaries of democratic free speech', we have 'boundaries of speech'. The small but rather significant word 'free' just doesn't sit in that sentence at all."
Huh?
-------------------------
I don't understand what you two don't get.
My original response was that the concept of 'boundaries of free speech' makes no sense.
Either we have free speech or we don't.
If our speech has bounds, then it isn't free.
How many more ways do you need it explained?
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@uk-anti-racist
"There is not one passage in the Koran that tells muslims to love anyone but another muslim. This is why the majority of alleged moderate muslims do not take to the streets to say that terrorism and murder of opponents is wrong."
Oh really? That's the reason? So it's not that moderate Muslims are just getting on with their lives like the rest of us? The reason the 30 Muslim members of my family don't take to the streets protesting is because they don't love anyone but other Muslims, and has nothing to do with working all day, coming home, seeing to the kids, and so on? Come on! Get real.
"Let's not talk about extremeist islam. Let's talk about the Koran. It contains many specific commands on muslims to go to war and to kill non-muslims."
The problem with your argument is that the Bible, while not as bloodthirsty, IS STILL bloodthirsty. And not just the Old Testament. Fortunately there are progressive moderate Christians and there are progressive moderate Muslims. That there is a greater proportion of the former than the latter is not something I would dispute, but I would strongly disagree with you on (a) the causes of that disparity, and (b) the best way to nurture moderation and progressivism in Muslims. The BNP solution will encourage extremism and division and make the problem a lot worse.
I'm not even going to tackle you on your casual downplaying of their position towards homosexuality - your own (alleged) sexual orientation - because I don't for a minute believe you are who you say you are. BNP plants are going to have to come up with more credible 'profiles' for opinion-forming than you have here. Thankfully most people can see through you.
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#190. At 3:10pm on 21 Oct 2009, jimbo9848 wrote:
"Big mistake by the BBC and typical to see everyone closing ranks on it. There's a fundamental confusion within your organisation between being allowed the freedom to hold a view which Griffin has in our democracy and having the right to disseminate it through publicly funded channels which he does not have."
Not at all. I contribute to those public funds and I would be happier to see and hear Griffin on QT. If we're going to talk about public funds there's a mass of stuff on the BBC that I neither watch nor listen to and I'd LOVE the BBC to regulate the universe to suit me - but it don't work that way. Everyone has their view on how the BBC should conduct itself but from long experience of listening/watching, I'm happy at their impartiality. It's clear that Mr Griffin has a few supporters here so let him have his turn.
I've read so much dubious stuff posted on these blogs, everything from foul-mouthed dross to possible misinterpretation and misunderstanding and, sure, here and there the occasional fact so I'd like to hear how he deals with QT questions. (And I'm prepared to bet that in spite of said impartiality, few if any in the audience will be allowed anti-immigration sentiments.)
But I'm not one for pushing the problem underground. This is what the Race Relations Act failed to consider - you can legislate against the outward symptoms of racism but you can't legislate against people's thoughts (yet) so the issues went underground and still bubbled away leading to the surfacing of a number of unsavoury events ever since. Many of us hoped that integration would result. Unfortunately it hasn't and sooner or later someone is going to have to sort it out.
I would sooner hear from Nick Griffin ready to tackle these problems head on, than the mainstream parties desperate to sweep this dust back under the carpet; their endless prevarication that will simply increase unrest in the end - unless they get to grips with the issues now.
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carrots @ 221
they are protest votes against many of your Ideals
what Liberty Egalite Fraternity, that sort of thing?
dread to think what they're FOR!
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212. DistantTraveller
Well that’s just a pardox of the democratic system isn’t it.
If sagamix wants to set up a “lets abolish democracy and put me in charge for ever and Ill ban everything I don’t like” party and everyone votes for it. Then you have to sort of accept it don’t you.
Or you go terrorist, because if you object then sagamix who is now in charge and busy banning everything just bans you and your thoughts probably as anti democratic.
The steepest and most “slippery slope” here is letting sagamix and his kind decide what I can and not see or hear. A man with 750k protest votes under his belt, most of which are protests against sagamix and his socialist ideals don’t worry me at all.
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197. At 3:28pm on 21 Oct 2009, CarrotsneedaQUANGO2 wrote:
181. Chris_O re uk-anti-racist
"Wise up Chris this girl uk-anti-racist is almost certainly a BNP drone.
She only registered today to blog here on this one topic."
Yep, got the same impression after reading several more of her posts.
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SKY Headlines
Ali Magrahi has died.
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225. At 4:28pm on 21 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
anybody @ 217
Fascist!
not possible, Sweet ... a clear thinking progressive CANNOT be a fascist
even if they try, they can't
----------------------------------------------------
As usual saga, eventually your own comments catch you up.
You propose banning a political organisation you don't like - this is undemocratic, and against the freedom of speech.
You consider yourself a 'clear thinking progressive' (I'll leave the word clear, though I have my doubts, then again I'm not too sure about that 'thinking' either).
So by your own conclusion then a clear thinking progressive is opposed to Democracy and free speech.
Unless you're not a clear thinking progressive - then maybe they aren't.
Or maybe you just don't have a clue what you're on about.
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Sagamix...
can we just be clear for the crowd that there is no claim anymore (if ever there was one) for the newlabour party to be 'progressive'
It is not 'progressive' to fill senior government positions with your mates and placemen. It is not 'progressive' to give gongs for money to all your mates and yes men.
The latest episode from Ed Balls the 'bully' as he has been dubbed by his own party is not 'progressive' it is appointing someone who will rubber stamp everything you do.
This government has lost the argument on progressive politics a long time ago and it is futile trying to get it back.
No one believes it for a second.
Now in the name of god, go.
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220. AndyC555 wrote:
Youre not wrong... if only we had a list of all the things NL have banned us from doing.
Not to mention the 3600 new laws that criminalise the offender.
I cant even protest outside my parliment. Im banned.
God save us from these worthy thought controlling socialists
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Question Time shouldn't give a platform to extremists. If the BBC wants to inform people about the BNP's views, it should repeat the Panorama investigation into them.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/programmes/2001/bnp_special/default.stm
Some people say Griffin should be treated the same as other party leaders. However, these are some of the reasons why Griffin is not like other party leaders:
1. He's a holocaust denier with a criminal conviction for inciting hatred against Jews. He has praised Mein Kampf, the Waffen SS, and attended neo-nazi rallies in Germany.
2. His acquaintances include convicted terrorists (i.e. Roberto Fiore and Horst Mahler) and former Grand Wizards of the KKK (David Duke and Don Black)
3. He belives in racial purity and would like all non-whites to leave the UK.
4. He supports the NPD (German neo-nazis who accuse the RAF of carrying out a holocaust on Germany during WWII).
5. It's been widely reported that he organized a protest outside Coventry Cathedral (bombed by the Luftwaffe), handing out leaflets that described the Allied wartime bombing of Germany as mass murder (the leaflets were written by a convicted, German, Nazi, terrorist).
Ironically, Griffin has been quoted in various sources as saying "...when the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate."
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sweet @ 227
How many more ways do you need it explained?
no, I get that thanks
it was just your "bank account" thing was causing a problem
not to worry!
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I think of a lot of contributors on here need to release themselves from this comforting notion that 'the rise in BNP support is solely down to a protest vote as well as our current economic position and it will all blow over soon'
There is a growing consensus tired of political correctness, affirmative action and the loss of traditional British values that many of us hold dear.
I had high hopes for David Cameron when he said th country was sick of political corectness under New Labour; although what does he go and do? Proposes female only shortlists as well as black and asian only shortlists. Even Anne Widdecombe denounces this!
I put my head in my hands when I heard this from Cameron, you can bet many more BNP votes if policies such as this continue.
I put my head in my hands at that point,
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"223. At 4:25pm on 21 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
555 @ 220
It's the left-wing way. "We are the most tolerant and will ban anyone who says we are not"
well the BNP anyway - a party based on Racial Discrimination
(RD being illegal in this country, I believe?)
but you seem quite keen on defending them, Andy
bit odd"
I can understand why you think it odd.
I would fight for anyone to be able to give their views, no matter how awful I think them to be.
You, being of that particular left wing ilk, believe in defending anyone's views so long as they agree with yours.
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come on people, concentrate!
if racial discrimination is unlawful how come a political party based on that very thing is not?
we're not talking about banning ice cream for heaven's sake!
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#233 Roll_on " Sky headlines. Ali Magrahi has died."
And now his lawyer has denied it.
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#236
Agreed. I wonder if sagamix feels safer, after those 3,600 new laws? Personally, I can't even think of 3,600 criminal offences but then I'm not a newlabour thoughtpoliceman.
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No51 RockingRobin.
You state that we live in a democracy. How would you define tha word democracy?
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Growing support for the BNP, as indicated by Nicks update, must be partly due to worries about unfettered immigration.
In one of my businesses, I come across various Europeans working here in England, e.g. Poles, Slovaks and Portugese.
I have asked them all why they decided to come and work here in England and have found a broad consensus of opinion :
"We come here to work because your Government is kind to us and helps us with our family and at home we get no help from Government at all".
So, from my admittedly small sample of a handful of Euro families, we can zoom out to the macro-political EU level and state the issue thus:
Europe needs to harmonise its social benefits systems such that it makes no difference where in the EU you live, the benefits given are pretty much equivalent.
Of course, there are also immigrants from outside of the EU, and given our history, we English should always welcome those from the Commonwealth countries, as long as there are reciprocal arrangements in place.
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218 Bad Wolf
Well you asked!!
Sura 9:5 - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush,..."
Sura 5:33 - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned..." Sura 9:73 - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."
Sura 8:59-60 - "And let not those who disbelieve think that they shall come in first; surely they will not escape. And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall
not be dealt with unjustly."
Sura 5:51 - "O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends;they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
However, In the interest of balance, the Bible is just as bad.
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RR @ 235
Now in the name of God, go!
okay Robin, I will in a minute ... just a final couple of things I need to sort out first
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Extremist parties gain popularity by communicating at local level with those who feel neglected by the rest of the political system. They listen to the fears of those people and promise to do something for them. If the mainstream parties want to tackle the extreme groups, they have to work harder at the same level: meet, talk with and address the concerns of the poorest and most badly educated in our society.
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#246
Indeed, the bible has some worrying things. Isn't there something about castrated people not being allowed into heaven? Seems doubly unfair on the poor blighters.
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"sagamix wrote:
555 @ 220
It's the left-wing way. "We are the most tolerant and will ban anyone who says we are not"
well the BNP anyway - a party based on Racial Discrimination
(RD being illegal in this country, I believe?)
but you seem quite keen on defending them, Andy
bit odd"
I know many people who support the existance of the BNP but don't agree with their principles or policies.
The thing about supporting freedom of expression/speech/thought is that sometimes we have to support groups that say things that we oppose.
Of course, we could go the whole "thought police" route and just ban those who say things that we oppose.
I am sure that one day we could even ban people from having such nasty thoughts - what a nice day that will be!
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241. At 4:48pm on 21 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
come on people, concentrate!
if racial discrimination is unlawful how come a political party based on that very thing is not?
===========================================================
Firstly, and I don't endorse the BNP or their views in any way, they do not claim to be based on racial discrimination, and as they have no power currently there is no evidence of what they would do once in power, whatever most reasonable minded people may think could happen.
Remember those of us who are a bit tolerent and do not demand for everything to be banned or made illegal believe you are innocent until PROVEN guilty.
And secondly, as fox hunting is illegal and the conservatives may try to bring it back - by your logic shouldn't they be banned too? (but don't go getting any ideas ;-) )
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230. sagamix.
they are protest votes against many of your Ideals
what Liberty Egalite Fraternity, that sort of thing?
dread to think what they're FOR!
For a clear thinking progressive you dont listen much. Youre more of a random comment generator.
Go back to 1 and start again.
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c555 @ 240
Andy, if you ever want to discuss politics you just let me know okay?
maybe start by addressing the question @ 241
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The unfortunate aspect about Griffin's appearance on QT tomorrow is not so much the fact that he is going to be on, but the fact that the protesters outside the Beeb are probably going to act in a manner that will only confirm some of the reasons the BNP exists.
There will be violence. There will be provocative banners. There will be a lot of covered faces. Riot police will need to be deployed.
Meanwhile the panel and most of the audience will be accusing Griffin of troublemaking.
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I'm no supporter in any way of the BNP, but I do think that politicians who voted to go to war in Iraq on a false ticket need to be cautious about citing superior morality.
1. I don't know how many people have died due to supporters of Mr Griffin doing people in, but I don't think it's anywhere near 100,000. It's almost certainly less than 100. And quite possibly zero.
2. Mr Griffin doesn't take orders, so far as I am aware, from the Grand Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan to torch the houses of black people. Does he??
3. And so far as I am aware, Mr Griffin's orders have not led to the deaths of any of his footsoldiers as a result.
Now if I am wrong and the Iraqis begged us to bomb them to smithereens, I will take all that back. But it seems peculiarly 'racist' to me to murder tens of thousands of people because someone called their leader the 'bogey man', when very few of them have done anything to offend us. And we were doing it on racial grounds, because they all live in one place and are called Iraqis. That's racist. Because we didn't bomb the Iranians, the French and the Pakistanis too.
And remember this too: when that odious leader was our 'friend', we were quite happy to sell him the means to be racist to his Islamic neighbours in what we would no doubt like to rechristen 'Persia'. I'm talking about gassing people with chemical weapons. Which ISN'T so far from the Nazis, is it?? No, that wasn't in the Second World War. It was in the 1980s. Led by that luminary visionary who David Cameron so admires, President Ronald Reagan.......
There's a world of difference between emotional nastiness to Indians, Pakistanis, Jamaicans etc, which I thoroughly deplore, and butchering people to death, which is mass murder.
I truly trust that members of the Labour and Tory party who voted for that war think carefully about this.
And wonder how to reset the moral compass of this country to understand the difference.....
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dragon @ 239
the loss of Traditional British Values (TBVs) that many of us hold dear
tell me a couple please
you know ... TBVs that you hold dear which we've lost
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"sagamix wrote:
carrots @ 221
they are protest votes against many of your Ideals
what Liberty Egalite Fraternity, that sort of thing?
dread to think what they're FOR!"
Saga how can you be both for "Liberty" AND the banning of the BNP.
The principle of Liberty is that an individual has the right to act according to their own will - even if that will is to join the BNP!
And your not really for "Egalite" either, as you support positive discrimination (or "positive action" to use the new Cameron-approved name) which is against the whole concept of equality.
I do agree with your belief that the BNP oppose these concepts but you hardly support them yourself!
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carrots @ 236
how about a couple of things you'd like to be doing (or saying) but the government is stopping you
just examples
I'm interested!
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Carrotsneedaquango@231
The steepest and most “slippery slope” here is letting sagamix and his kind decide what I can and not see or hear. A man with 750k protest votes under his belt, most of which are protests against sagamix and his socialist ideals don’t worry me at all.
750k people protesting against socialism who couldn't bring themselves to vote Conservative?
750k people protest against Sagamix? I think thats highly unlikely.
I thought the excuse the BNP voters was the problem they had with parliament with expenses etc. rather than just New Labour. I personally could not bring myself to vote for the BNP not even as a protest vote to shock the government. I doubt very many of them genuinely did do that.
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"Chris_O wrote:
197. At 3:28pm on 21 Oct 2009, CarrotsneedaQUANGO2 wrote:
181. Chris_O re uk-anti-racist
"Wise up Chris this girl uk-anti-racist is almost certainly a BNP drone.
She only registered today to blog here on this one topic."
Yep, got the same impression after reading several more of her posts."
I got the impression she was a he, the first post mentioned that he/she was gay and had a husband - so if he/she later claimed to be a she it would be almost certain proof of a plant/troll.
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Sagamix u really are an idiot
the loss of Traditional British Values (TBVs) that many of us hold dear
well how about English as a first language in primary schools .
Christian religiuos education as first RK subject in Schools ,
just a couple off the cuff
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Just reading the entries in this blog after finishing work. As usual, most miss the point which is that the the strongest levels of support for the BNP are in those areas of the country in which the whole concept of 'multicultural diversity' is on the verge of collapse. This collapse is not due to the simple issue of race (multiracial Britain has, in the main, been a success), it is an issue of religious dominance and is being fuelled by an increasing fear of what is going to happen in this country within the next 30 years or so. As a previous blogger has noted, the Home Counties and other preferred residential areas of the political elite have not, as yet, been significantly affected but they will be and when that happens, I suspect that the howls of anger will be heard from John O'Groats to Lands End. If Nick Griffin popping up on TV now and again forces the major political parties to start facing reality instead of hiding from it then I'm personally all for it.
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#135 said : "The problem here is that the national character of Britain is NOT being fundamentally changed by immigrants."
Sorry #135, but I didn't say that was the case - although many might say it was - I said that if Nick Griffin said such a thing on Question Time, there would be an outcry, whereas when the Afghan bloke asserted that Coalition foreign influence upon his homeland was wrong, he was treated like a champion of political correctness. It's these double-standards of presentation and interpretation that the BNP are exploiting. Caledonian Comment
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#253
Surely one of the 3,600 laws you lot have passed would cover this? If not, why blame me.
personally, I think people should be allowed to think whatever they like, no matter how dreadful. So long as their freedoms don't impinge on others, that's how it should be.
Many in the left, like you, fail to see what democracy is about. It is less about the majority prevailing than it is that the minority can exist. Disgusted of Mitchem (or whatever his name is) adheres to a philiosophy that could see 51% of the population incarcerating the other 49% simply because it was a majority and wanted to do it. I'm sure even you aren't as bonkers as that.
So, to talk politics, how can you ban a party for 'thinking' something? Who is to decide what thoughts are allowed and what not? You, I suppose? God help us if that ever happened.
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carrots @ 252
For a clear thinking progressive you don't listen much
now you're being rude!
who am I supposed to be listening to? ... you?
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I looked up the share of the votes in the 2009 European elections, remember that NG is an MEP, and the BNP got 6.2% and Labour got 15.7%. Although I did not vote for them, why is eveybody getting so agitated about a single appearance on Question Time, and why does NR provide such misleading statistics?
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"258. At 5:19pm on 21 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
carrots @ 236
how about a couple of things you'd like to be doing (or saying) but the government is stopping you"
Paying capital gains tax at 10% on AIM listed stock I've held for 2years. Can't do that any more.
Planning to dump loads of dosh in my pension fund and get tax relief on it (you know, so i don't have to depend on the state when I retire). can't do that any more.
Wanting to be self-employed in the building industry. my clients won't be able to do that soon.
All Labour machinations.
Tesco "every little helps"
Labour "we want to control everything you do, everything you think"
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mark @ 257
Saga how can you be both for "Liberty" AND the banning of the BNP?
pls refer 241
isn't that a valid explanation?
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#231 carrots
"The steepest and most “slippery slope” here is letting sagamix and his kind decide what I can and not see or hear"
I am certainly against the surveillance/politically correct/nanny state into which we have slept-walked under New Labour, as I have said many times before! But with regard to what is or isn't permissible to say, the issue isn't always 'black and white'.
We don't have unfettered 'freedom of speech' in this country. It isn't permissible to commit slander or libel for example. For some time, it has not been permissible to incite others to commit crimes. But of course, these type of restrictions do carry their own inherent problems - eg, where do you draw the line? Hence the dilemma to which I referred.
There is also the argument against falsely shouting fire in a public theatre, just to cause a panic.
Regarding the old quote often attributed to Voltaire, "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.", I am bound to say I wouldn't simply ban racists from spouting their garbage, because it is probably better to know what they are saying and openly challenge them. However, I wouldn't feel obliged to 'defend' racists or Nazi supporters - particularly when they would deny the rights they claim for themselves to others.
The dilemma of knowing how best to respond is, as you say, a paradox of the democratic system.
Hopefully, good sense and human kindness will prevail in the end.
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Any bets that the predicted 71 Million population of the UK is one of the questions on QT tomorrow?
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#241
hasn't this point gone through the courts? Aren't the BNP having to redraw their joining criteria? personally, I wouldn't join them if membership came with a huge financial stipend (you know, like being a member of one of the many labour quangoes) and a grace and favour home (you know, like the ones that some Labout MPs don't take so they can rip off the taxpayer to the tune of £116,000 in pure profit, never mind just having the interest on a loan covered).
But even though I wouldn't join them, it doesn't mean I'd want to ban them. Instead, i'd be asking how such a bunch got a million votes at the euro elections. I'd be wondering whether it wasn't better to debate this issues rather than screeching ****ist at anyone who had any views on any topic different to my own.
Still, what do I know? I know what my favourite biscuit is, that's what i know (chocolate hobnobs)
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I think the BNP are actually doing the major parties a favour.
Let's face it Labour are in terminal decline, awaiting execution at the next General Election.
The Tories are capitalising on Labour's ineptitude and unpopularity, but do not convince many that they are the 'real deal'.
The BNP raise both parties standing by being the worst of a bad lot.
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"There's a world of difference between emotional nastiness to Indians, Pakistanis, Jamaicans etc, which I thoroughly deplore, and butchering people to death, which is mass murder."
Emotional nastinesss? Maybe you can mention that to Steven Lawrence's family or the other youths who are regularly beaten or have bags of urine thrown at them. Emotional nastiness is so easy to handle when its not your daily diet. Disingenuous and irrelevant comments sadly are. So you think the BNP wouldn't have endorsed the bombing of Iraq and Afghanistan do you? I guess they'd be too busy sinking immigrant's boats and giving them liferafts.
I can't believe the number of people defending Griffin just to point score against "political correctness" and new labour. You guys are living in a fantasy world if you believe that the BNP is just another party - this is the racists' party of choice - including some very violent ones. Their election has genuine and ACTUAL impacts on people's daily lives. Not the notional standpoints some of you are taking.
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andy @ 267
cheers, thanks for that - all tax stuff (and fair enough given your raison d'etre)
but no good for what we're trying to do, I'm afraid, which is explore all this Banning that's gone on in the name of Political Correctness
so, a couple of relevant examples would be nice
you or Carrots, I don't mind ... but no getting together and cheating!
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One of the reasons often given for the existence of the BNP is that the main parties are ignoring the problems (whether real or perceived) caused by mass immigration -'taking our jobs and houses' etc. etc. and only the BNP is addressing these fears.
Whether they like it or not any future Labour, or more probably Tory, Government is going to have to address the problem. It is no longer good enough to try to dismiss any criticism as 'racist' or xenophobic.
If it is genuinely not really a problem, then convince us of that and show us the evidence that we are being paranoid..
If it is a real problem, dont ignore it, do something about it and let us see something being done.
The Government were very happy to brand everyone as a potential paedophile until we have passed CRB and other checks. i.e. dealing with a problem that doesn't actually exist.
Do the same with immigration. Treat it as a real problem - even if it isn't - and put our minds at rest.
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#275
Nail hit firmly on the head. Is unfettered immigration a problem? Two approaches to the question. First: try and answer it. Second: screech "racist" at anyone who dares even raise the topic.
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Andy @ 271
ah very good! - good news that you've had a think about that - for me, this is the key point - I DO appreciate that banning a political party with so many apparent supporters is fraught with difficulty
as regards choc HNs ... me too! (but without the choc)
DHW too, I believe
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258. At 5:19pm on 21 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
carrots @ 236
how about a couple of things you'd like to be doing (or saying) but the government is stopping you
just examples
I'm interested!
**********************
Mmmmm! Taking my grandson and five of his mates to rugby practice on a Sunday morning, without having to be treated as if I was a paedophile before I can do it!.
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"274. At 5:48pm on 21 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
andy @ 267
cheers, thanks for that - all tax stuff (and fair enough given your raison d'etre)
but no good for what we're trying to do, I'm afraid, which is explore all this Banning that's gone on in the name of Political Correctness
so, a couple of relevant examples would be nice
you or Carrots, I don't mind ... but no getting together and cheating!"
I should have guessed. You ask for examples, I give them to you, but they turn out to be the 'wrong' sort of examples (you weren't employed by BR when they had the wrong sort of leaves on the line were you?).
Why not ask us to pick the number between 1 and 1,000 you're thinking of? I'm sure we would have to make 999 guesses before you'd admit we were even getting close.
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"Mmmmm! Taking my grandson and five of his mates to rugby practice on a Sunday morning, without having to be treated as if I was a paedophile before I can do it!. "
How? Out of interest.
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#278 And reaching a point in the country where a Cabinet Minister has to get involved to OK two friends looking after each other's children.
Can't remember that happening under the Tories.
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258 Sagamix
how about a couple of things you'd like to be doing (or saying) but the government is stopping you
just examples
I'm interested!
Oh, I on't know.
Maybe heckle an MP without being arrested under anti-terroist powers...
or read out the names of Iraqui war dead at the Cenotaph without being carted off...
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Zed @ 278
Taking my grandson and five of his mates to rugby practice on a Sunday morning, without having to be treated as if I was a paedophile before I can do it!
that's better ... that's the sort of thing!
so in what way are you treated like a P please?
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dreamer @ 273
I can't believe the number of people defending Griffin just to point score against "political correctness" and new labour
yes ... it's a sickener, isn't it?
be afraid
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"#278 And reaching a point in the country where a Cabinet Minister has to get involved to OK two friends looking after each other's children."
Was that Labour or some idiot bureaucrat. Did we not have those under the tories?
So clearly racist attacks inspired by the BNP are a price worth paying to prevent over officious officials.
I do remember the poll tax under the tories a tax on every adult in a house though. I remember also race riots in Brixton, Toxteth and Broadwater Farm estate. I remember record levels of unemployment - some three million? I remember racist chants on football terraces as well. But I guess they pale in comparison.
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I am voting for the BNP, even though some of their policies could negatively affect my life - I'm gay and married to an asian, and the BNP want to get rid of civil partnerships and "inter-racial" marriages.
My partner will also be voting for them. One doesn't have to agree with everything a party says in order to vote for it. No party has every provided me with everything I want. My partner has no fear of forced deportation because that is not the BNP policy.
Why will be voting BNP? Because like the other 600,000 voters the BNP have acquired in the last 4 years, we are more worried about the failure of successive governments to stem the rise of islam in Europe than we are about losing some of our own civil rights.
Am I racist? Is my asian husband racist? Islam is not a race - there are white muslims. Once the BNP change their constitution, both my partner and I will become paid up members. As will many more people. The BNP's talk about "race" is foolish. And it will end. They can be nationalists and anti-immigration without using that idiotic concept.
And look, there is a pig flying outside my window!!!!
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fred @ 261
Sagamix you really are an idiot
hi Fred! ... thought you'd promised us that 224 was your "last thought" on all this? ... which I reckoned was odd at the time, since I was still looking for your first
anyway look, I can't be an Idiot because I'm a Clear Thinking Progressive - idiots don't get to call themselves CTPs, do they? - c'mon!
don't like either of your examples, BTW - one has not been lost, and the other isn't really a TBV (that we hold dear)
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c555 @ 279
don't be silly Andy, you KNOW the sort of thing we're looking for
yes you do!
anyway no worries, you relax ... they're coming in thick and fast now from some other nice people
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
258. At 5:19pm on 21 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
carrots @ 236
how about a couple of things you'd like to be doing (or saying) but the government is stopping you
just examples
I'm interested!
===
On Wednesday, at Westminster, just before PMQs, Gordon Brown read out the names of the 37 service personnel who had died in Afghanistan since MPs went on their jollies.
When, in 2005, Maya Evans read out the names of those 97 service personnel who had died in Iraq she was arrested and charged under Anti Terrorism laws, specifically s132 of the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act.
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269. DistantTraveller
OK some good points, but another paradox for you.
Racial discrimination is in practice is illegal and inciting racial hatred is illegal. (and happy with that I am).
Question: should putting an argument together and presenting said argument to the electorate via the democratic process that this law needs to be repealed and that the UK government should be allowed to discriminate against certain races also be illegal.
I say No. because to do so is merely attempting to ban an idea.
If you say yes then I merely ask you to outline who gets to make these decisions on my behalf… Sagamix?
Also is discussion and debate on every other thing that is banned to be banned.
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260. Mark_WE
Perhaps youre right, but then the idea of 2 gay guys one of which is Asian both voting BNP is even funnier.
I do hope they try to join their new party though, Im sure their arrival at their first meeting will be on the news.
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I have no intention of watching it - Question Time - but then I wont complain about it either.
I found a web site with seemingly wise words about - SILENCE, Nicholas.
Spiteful words can hurt your feelings but silence breaks your heart. ~ Author Unknown
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259. dhwilkinson
Hello DHW. 750k votes against sagamix.. come on I could canvas those in a day.
Bur seriously as I recall the stats for the BNP vote the rise in the BNP vote as a percentage almost directly correlated with the drop from NuLabour votes.
I recall that the BNP didn’t actually gain many votes in terms of number but the same number of votes gave them an increased percentage.
I’m sure the expenses saga helped no end for which I mainly blame Brown, he had ample chance to solve this. But as I recall he didn’t even turn up to the vote.
I too would never vote BNP but I’m sure many would. Mass immigration is a big issue for many and they are the only party offering an obvious and central solution to an native underclass who pay the price for it.
I hope there was a lot of protest votes there but could be wrong we will never know.
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carrots @ 291
should putting an argument together and presenting said argument to the electorate via the democratic process that this law (outlawing racial discrimination and the incitement of racial hatred) needs to be repealed and that the UK government should be allowed to discriminate against certain races also be illegal?
excellent, we're getting to it - so I'm saying yes and you're saying no - not such a grand canyon really, is it?
and what about, say, a Taleban like political party (in the UK) which proposes that girls shouldn't be allowed to go to school?
we let them put candidates up in every seat at the general election and, you know, have a crack?
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If the BBC is to be the arbiter of who appears on its channels then it has to be even-handed and represent all significant shades of opinion.
Whatever we may think of the BNP 6% of the vote is significant.
I rather wish it would ensure that all shades of opinion are represented in Question Time's audience or is only the noisy ones that get their opinion across?
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265. At 5:29pm on 21 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
carrots @ 252
For a clear thinking progressive you don't listen much
now you're being rude!
who am I supposed to be listening to? ... you?
Well yes actually we are having a debate here, listening is usually at least half of a debate.
Its a debate forum. Its not a sagamix rant forum...
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280. At 6:03pm on 21 Oct 2009, united_dreamer wrote:
"Mmmmm! Taking my grandson and five of his mates to rugby practice on a Sunday morning, without having to be treated as if I was a paedophile before I can do it!. "
How? Out of interest.
**********
As if it matters. I have a 7 seater people carrier at my disposal.
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295. At 6:49pm on 21 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
carrots @ 291
should putting an argument together and presenting said argument to the electorate via the democratic process that this law (outlawing racial discrimination and the incitement of racial hatred) needs to be repealed and that the UK government should be allowed to discriminate against certain races also be illegal?
excellent, we're getting to it - so I'm saying yes and you're saying no - not such a grand canyon really, is it?
and what about, say, a Taleban like political party (in the UK) which proposes that girls shouldn't be allowed to go to school?
we let them put candidates up in every seat at the general election and, you know, have a crack?
*******************
The problem here is that the Government doing the discriminating might, in many peoples eyes, itself need discriminating against.
Let's be fair. From some of the comments - informed and otherwise - on these blogs, one might well get the impression that the Labour Party should never be let within a barge-poles length of Government again.
For example; Any Minister who wants people to go snooping in the contents of my wheelie-bin, must have some very suspect, unseemly, unacceptable habits!
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carrots @ 297
It's not a sagamix rant forum
pls see 295
and tell me the posts where I'm "ranting" (rather than making salient points) and I'll remove them
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289. At 6:26pm on 21 Oct 2009, dhwilkinson wrote:
277 sagamix
"..as regards choc HNs ... me too! (but without the choc)
DHW too, I believe"
either is good, Plain chocolate for me.
Cameron likes Hob Nobs without the sugar(Oatcakes.or is it just that the words Hob Nob and Flapjack have too much comedy potential?). Cameron has also been bragging about his superior biscuit knowledge in one of his questions at PMQs. Reassuring to know. When it comes to important decisions about biscuits, Camerons the man for the job.
Well, that's 1-0 then. Bring on the next example of GB v DC and it will be 2-0, third example = 3-0, fourth example..... 99th example 99-0.
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Sagamix
What has NuLabour stopped me doing, well not much but then I don’t really live on the edge of the law. : Can I widen that a little to include laws introduced and rights of the sate that I object to:
The right to protest outside parliament
Id like to refuse entry to the 266 agencies that can enter my home without a warrant and without notice.
Id quite like not to live in fear of extradition to the US for a crime committed in the UK against a UK organisation merely because one my emails went through a US server.
Id like for my DNA not to be kept on file if I’m found innocent of a crime.
I don’t like the government keeping a record of my phone calls and emails or hacking into my pc without a warrant.
I don’t like records of my vehicle movements being kept of file.
Id quite like to film a police officer if I find one is behaving badly. Say giving some Yuff a kicking.
I don’t want to have to carry an id card and certainly don’t want to have to pay for one.
I want anti terror legislation to be used solely for what it was intended and not bin cams etc.
I want the freedom not to be on a state database.
I don’t want to be at risk of being detained for 42 days without trial.
There are probably thousands more but I doubt youre listening ……
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dh @ 289
When it comes to important decisions about biscuits, Cameron's the man for the job
lol ... and I bet he can't buy a whole packet outright either ... you know, without taking out a mortgage
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Z @ 299
okay, take your point about wheelie bins
but what about my "UK Taleban" question? ... would you let them run for Office?
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Everything I've read and heard about the BNP I find repugnent.
The problem is that it is easy to tap into some of the issues they exploit and wonder why main stream parties haven't paid more attention.
Immigration IS an issue. We're a fairly small country and almost 3 times more crowded than France. Counting numbers is a neutral thing - not racist, sexist, or culturally challenging. It's all very well for governments to say that we need immigrants to do jobs here - but why? Do we need highly skilled people? Yes. But can't we actually train plumbers, electricians or building workers to a standard that businesses want? Or encourage people to do agricultural jobs that maybe be a bit hard and dirty but at least bring in a wage for a while?
Housing IS an issue. Governments always say "they" are delivering more and more house-units. I don't see a real increase compared to the population expansion. (And, by the way, there are thousands of places that could be brought back to occupation standards without having to be torn down and restarted at massive cost.)
Religious and cultural integration IS a problem. For goodness sake it has taken two bits of the Christian church centuries to work out how to live together across the islands of great Britain. And it's hard to understand why the three "Abrahamic" religions can't learn to rub along together. I truly dislike it when schools and councils talk about Winterval or some other nonsense, when Christmas has been celebrated for millennia.
I don't like any of the underlying values that the BNP espouses. There's an underlying replusiveness I could never consider voting for.
But main-stream political parties have drifted so far off into the ether of socially intrusive "legislation and regulation" that they simply lose touch with how life happens for most people. And that leaves an opening for off-the-wall types to exploit.
If Cameron said he'd address the stupidities of Brown's withdrawal of the 10p tax band and lifted the lowest tax-free allowances, he'd start to claw in voters at an unprecedented rate.
If he said he'd introduce some sort of proper management of immigration levels, he'd sweep Brown into the gutter of history.
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"As if it matters. I have a 7 seater people carrier at my disposal."
Is a police check a bad thing? I guess the rise in cases of paedophiles being convicted and the accompanying scandal when those in power haven't stopped them happening may be the cause of more stringent process.
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"I rather wish it would ensure that all shades of opinion are represented in Question Time's audience or is only the noisy ones that get their opinion across?"
Re 296
Recently the media has ramped up the stories about the BNP,mainstream political parties parading in front of the cameras in a concerted attack against Nick Griffin and his party-this has ranged from serious concerns to trivial nonsense about WW2 aircraft...why this,why now?
The British establishment is taking a gamble with this appearance on the BBC, and has undoubtedly set traps for Griffin by the use of a stacked audience and intensive research to blindside him.
There will probably be more heat than light -but in the end the BNP have nothing to lose,the converted will cry persecution if Nick Griffin is shouted down or unfairly treated,if he stands his ground and says things that people agree with they could pick up support.
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304. At 7:26pm on 21 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
Z @ 299
okay, take your point about wheelie bins
but what about my "UK Taleban" question? ... would you let them run for Office?
*************
If - and its a big if - they were a recognised, genuine POLITICAL party, why not?
But you would then have the paradox of a party with views equally loathesome (although diametrically opposed to) as those of the BNP.
I know you don't like answers that pose questions, but in this case I'll try it.
In a similar vein. Would you let a convicted IRA bomber become a respected politician?
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Sagamix
Ok so we have established that you want to ban all discussion on repealing of matters that that have previously been banned by UK law. (very progressive but nay matter)
I'll assume that you don’t mean everything ever banned. eg fox hunting, smoking, Sunday trading etc etc because that would just be daft. I know you aren’t daft so I will assume that it is only some laws that can never be repealed.
So as I no longer have a complete say in what I can or can not vote for please can you outline:
Which laws can or can not be revisited.
Who makes these decisions on my behalf on future laws that can not be foreseen at those point in time.
Id like a green paper by Monday please.
Oh yes and the IRA had a political wing so why shouldn’t the Taliban have one… or is this some sort of race thing?
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Home office announce theyve lost another 40,000 illegales & people wonder why they are turning to the likes of BNP. Blair admitted when in power he had no idea how many illegales were in the country,no referendum,no election,i could go on & on but whats the point, nobody in Government cares a toss what the indigious population think or want. Iam English & proud iam white & not ashamed, like millions of others totally disillusioned what is happening to this once green & pleasant land.
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301 bovinebuffoon
Bring on the next example of GB v DC and it will be 2-0, third example = 3-0, fourth example..... 99th example 99-0.
Didn't I say in my post that I like Chocolate covered Oaty biscuits? That makes me more of a Lib-Dem surely?
@303 Your Jaffa Cakes could be at risk if the taxpayer doesn't keep up with repayments.
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FOM @ 305
hello Fairly, welcome to the BNP Blog!
so where do YOU stand then? (not clear from your post)
I'm saying there's a good case for banning the BNP since they are a party based on racial discrimination and inciting racial hatred, and those things are unlawful in this country
do you agree?
if you don't, what about my follow up question?
if we saw the rise of a "UK Taleban" type party and one of their policies was (say) girls can't go to school, would you allow them to make a pitch for power at a General Election?
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295. sagamix
Lets run with that Taliban one for a second .... I like it.
I belive that women should stay in the home, I think that women should not be allowed to work once they are married. There arent enough jobs for everyone, family life suffers and diner is never ready on time.
Therefore there is no point in girls going to school. They should stay at home with their Mums and learn to cook proper meals and make sure the boys behave and do their home work and go to be early while they clear up the house.
I could formulate a whole manifesto on that one, there are no end of social issues that this ploicy would solve. Though I would have to repeal sex discrimination legislation.
Am I banned (in your progressive new world) from putting my crazy ideas to the electorate.
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I suppose the 'saga' bit was a giveaway if you are indeed a pensioner.
Well done on being so. A lifetime of tax free contributions to your pension pot is now paying dividends. of course, labour are denying future generations such kind hearted treatment.
you should have a t-shirt printed up. "I'm all-right Jack" or "last one on board, drawbridge up" would seem right.
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"303. At 7:17pm on 21 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
dh @ 289
When it comes to important decisions about biscuits, Cameron's the man for the job
lol ... and I bet he can't buy a whole packet outright either ... you know, without taking out a mortgage"
Should Cameron take a tip from Mzzzz Smith? turn down the offer of free biscuits and insist on being paid a six figure sum to buy her sister biscuits instead? Alledgedly.
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z @ 308
okay, thanks for your answer ... you're a big big Libertarian by the sounds of it!
now then, your Q for me:
Would I let a convicted IRA bomber become a respected politician?
allow to become a politician? ... yes, if he'd served his time and had renounced violence
be RESPECTED? ... not up to me
why, would you NOT let "Him" become a politician?
(in which case you're not such a Libertarian after all, are you? ... you're just picking and choosing)
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"sagamix wrote:
mark @ 257
Saga how can you be both for "Liberty" AND the banning of the BNP?
pls refer 241
isn't that a valid explanation?"
So basically you are for liberty as long as there are laws in place to ban people from doing things you find distasteful?
Liberty as a concept suggests that people's actions should be based on their will and not laws, imposing laws to limit people's liberties is against the entire concept!
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I rarely watch Question Time these days. I don't know what it is about the rehearsed speech, the deliberate appeal to the audience, followed by a pause and sip of water that turns me off so much. If the panel were awarded points for rhetorical deviations and sips of water then the programme would be very similar to Have I Got News For You.
How about Nicholas Parsons being the presenter and the contestants (err, panelists) have a buzzer they can use each time one of the other members deviates, repeats or hesitates.
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woopsie.
40,000 lost immigrants.
7p on basic rate of tax
VAT on food,
universities admit dumbing down languag degrees
liverpool have worse run of results for 22 years.
OK, maybe labour aren't to blame for the last one.
or are they?
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306. At 7:38pm on 21 Oct 2009, united_dreamer wrote:
"As if it matters. I have a 7 seater people carrier at my disposal."
Is a police check a bad thing? I guess the rise in cases of paedophiles being convicted and the accompanying scandal when those in power haven't stopped them happening may be the cause of more stringent process
What is wrong here is that the state wants to insist that you prove that you are innocent before they allow you contact with children.
Think about that.
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310. quickicanputt wrote:
Home office announce theyve lost another 40,000 illegales & people wonder why they are turning to the likes of BNP
Look on the bright side at least they havent found them all gaurding the PMs car.
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Carrots @ 309
we have established that you want to ban all discussion on repealing of matters that that have previously been banned by UK law
no we haven't - we were discussing the racial discrimination law
Oh yes and the IRA had a political wing so why shouldn’t the Taliban have one ... or is this some sort of race thing?
no, it's a "party with policies which go against that which we hold essential for a civilised society" ... thing
look, are you getting around the drawing the line issue by saying there IS no line you'd ever draw? - i.e. any party whatever their beliefs and policies can (as far as you're concerned) take their chances at the Ballot Box?
that's fair enough if that's your position - just confirm please and we can do the old "agree to disagree" shuffle (you remember that one? ... still know the steps?)
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316. At 8:10pm on 21 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
z @ 308
okay, thanks for your answer ... you're a big big Libertarian by the sounds of it!
now then, your Q for me:
Would I let a convicted IRA bomber become a respected politician?
allow to become a politician? ... yes, if he'd served his time and had renounced violence
be RESPECTED? ... not up to me
why, would you NOT let "Him" become a politician?
(in which case you're not such a Libertarian after all, are you? ... you're just picking and choosing)
***************************
OK, so far so good. You would let him become a politician provided he renounced violence.
Therefore by insinuation you would not him if he hadn't renounced violence.
Do you, in that case, accept that Sinn Fein should also be on your 'banned' party list?
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#291 carrots
"If you say yes then I merely ask you to outline who gets to make these decisions on my behalf… Sagamix?
Also is discussion and debate on every other thing that is banned to be banned."
To your last point first, if something is banned, discussion about why it is banned should not be banned!!!
But I have to admit, I really don't know the best way to proceed with this BNP debate. I abhor racism, but I also abhor State 'censorship'.
We could say that anyone has the right to say whatever they want - or we could take the view that in a civilised society there are codes of conduct about how we should treat other people. If we have regulations, where do we draw the lines? It's certainly a question worthy of debate...
But racists and extremists do not worry about such genteel questions! Which is why I wonder whether giving a platform to those who would deny others a platform can be entirely justified....
It has been decided that the BNP will be given a platform on Question Time; we can only hope Jack Straw (and others) will put up a good opposition. But, the danger is that the BBC has given the BNP a legitimacy that they don't deserve. According to this report in The Telegraph, Jean-Marie Le Pen saw his support double over-night after appearing on a similar programme in France.
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C @ 302
right, good list, I like it! - well I like it so long as it's a Carrots original and not just pulled off Guido or something
but let's assume it is
now I'm not saying there are no valid concerns there ... there certainly are ... but I offer the following observation:
in your day to day life, you don't hear, see or feel any of these things do you? - it's "reactionary outrage thrice removed" ... am I right?
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@ 323 ... Do you, in that case, accept that Sinn Fein should also be on your 'banned' party list?
no Mr Z, there's only one party on my banned list at present and that is the good old BNP
not sure what your point is ... do you have a point?
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"look, are you getting around the drawing the line issue by saying there IS no line you'd ever draw? - i.e. any party whatever their beliefs and policies can (as far as you're concerned) take their chances at the Ballot Box?
that's fair enough if that's your position - just confirm please and we can do the old "agree to disagree" shuffle"
There's a very good chance that you and i would actually agree about the abhorance of some political views. Trouble seems to be that, though it would grate on my soul to do so, i would allow those parties to stand, and you, it would seem, would not.
Who gets to decide what thoughts are and are not allowed to be thought? You? That's a pretty high moral platform you have built for yourself. don't get dizzy up there.
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I suspect the sort of people who might be influenced by what Griffin has to say probably don't watch Question Time so it would be wrong to ban him on those grounds. Better to let him have his moment so that reasonable people can see him for what he is. It will turn out to be a bit of a circus, with some booing or groaning almost inevitable.
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"What is wrong here is that the state wants to insist that you prove that you are innocent before they allow you contact with children.
Think about that."
Carrots no great thoughts required. These are the kind of checks the paranoid classes (Daily Mail readers) have been clamouring for years. Don't like the outcome? Maybe you can suggest an alternative. Pity they weren't more stringent in the Nursery schools. Its not perfect I agree but there are bad people out there.
But are these really the kinds of policies that BNP's emergence are addressing?
To me immigration is the ONLY issue worth addressing and you can blame the EC/channel tunnel for the recent influx. The government have tried to address it with ID cards (can't say I agree with it - expense/my ability to lose one) but that is being shouted down itself by the same people.
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#295, sagamix wrote:
carrots @ 291
"excellent, we're getting to it - so I'm saying yes and you're saying no - not such a grand canyon really, is it?
and what about, say, a Taleban like political party (in the UK) which proposes that girls shouldn't be allowed to go to school?
we let them put candidates up in every seat at the general election and, you know, have a crack?"
Saga,
It's really sad, but this stuff pushes the boundaries of social and international philosophy to the extremes.
As far as I recall, the UK and US didn't go to war against Afghanistan because the leadership restricted education for women, but because there were alleged to be Al Qaeda training camps that could attack the West.
Far as I recall, the Taleban were aided by the US and the West when they fought against the USSR occupancy of Afghanistan. (200,000 troops got booted out. How many do we have?) If nobody took the trouble to work out what the thinking/philosophical background of the Taleban leaders may have been, then why would anybody trust a politician?
If there was country that believed it was quite proper to have a legal killing of people who brutalised, mutilated, destroyed both mentally and physically - then killed children, should we go to war with them?
Hey ho, saga. War with USA, Russia, China. Good career move.
Grow up. Women know stuff that men don't. I know that. We are different. That's why they have to find a way to cope with body-change and massive hormonal stuff that men just dont have to deal with. (A beer belly that's here today, gone in the next six months just isn't close. And rarely happens!)
If there were a UK Taleban Party trying to recruit members - not to wage war against the wicked West, but to create a society in which females could not be educated - do you think they would have any opportunity to achieve power?
Any more than egalitarian party that would like to see everybody begin with the same start as everybody else. So welcome to debt-world. Well, that's where we are today.
Government keeps telling us that Northern Rock was a "traditional" bank, not a casino banker. Messed up. Big time.
So why should I (plus my children) or anybody else who wasn't a shareholder pick up the bits and pieces of somebody else's complete and abject failure?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Spotting them before they are allowed to happen is why we hire politicians. What, exactly, have they done?
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Part of the problem is New Labour, in the past they have branded the Tory’s as racists, maybe they should not have used the racist’s card so quickly and addressed the issues raised by Michael Howard.
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322. sagamix
Im all for drawing lines.
I just dont want this dodgy government or you doing it for me on a matter this big. No one should decide who I can vote for. Though I would be happy with a ban on anyone with a serious criminal record standing for public office. But I do not want parties banned because you think race discrimination is too serious.
I want the electorate to decide by the ballot box.
Its not perfect and it will lead to some problems but no where near the problems that your regime will introduce.
Any how all the BNP would do is move to ban people on the grounds of nationality which our country does every day. If I read there manifesto correctly that wouldn’t be that bigger shift.
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"united_dreamer wrote:
Pity they weren't more stringent in the Nursery schools. Its not perfect I agree but there are bad people out there."
From my understanding you need a CRB check to work in a Nursery, so these checks can only pick up on people's pasts and not their future intent.
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mark @ 317
So basically you are for liberty as long as there are laws in place to ban people from doing things you find distasteful?
certainly not - there are many things I find distasteful ... spitting on the sidewalk, bad language from builders and the like ... the Tory Party ... loads of things, believe me ... but I wouldn't BAN any of them
here we're discussing a UK political party (running for office) which is based on racial discrimination and the incitement of racial hatred
these "extrapolations" are both nonsensical and irrelevant
Liberty as a concept suggests that people's actions should be based on their will and not laws, imposing laws to limit people's liberties is against the entire concept!
no - liberty MUST be constrained by what society deems are acceptable boundaries, as expressed and implemented via the Law - what you are describing is Anarchy
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Why is there such surprise that those most impacted by the financial meltdown are looking for alternatives to express their anger. The ruling parties, and I mean both, were culpable in serving as legislative handmaidens to the financial services, then decided not to punish them but rather reward them with taxpayer debts to shore up their failed decisions. This great tranfer of public wealth from the bottom to the top does not sit well with many and only those with the job security and individual means accept the status quo. The elected, aside from their personal corruption and feeling of entitlement to misuse public funds for personal services, betrayed the public trust by failing to rein in the activities of the financial services and the house of cards they built. Frankly, I think people are lucky there were not riots in the streets when everyone realized that not only had the bankers mismanged large amounts of funds but that individual accounts were diminished to help pay for this. The bankers walked away with millions and currently they reward themselves with bonuses as a slap in the face to the working class that is currently underwriting their unethical behaviors. I would think multiple new parties would arise as the standards betrayed the public trust and promoted the greatest transfer of wealth from the bottom to the top in history. If people are offended by the rethortic, they deserve to be offended. The are too arrogant to accept responsibility what they have done. Has anyone heard a single apology from the banking industry or the elected officials who fostered this fraud?
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Is the immigration issue a convenient excuse for closet racists to associate with a party they would normally never admit to being sympathetic towards?
Are there no other more savoury alternatives (UKIP, Conservatives?) or does this just confirm what most of us already knew... that racism is alive and well in 21st Britain? Across all classes. After all, Britain virtually invented apartheid (CJ Rhodes) in the name of the Empire.
You can blame Labour for many things. You can't blame them for making you racist.
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fairly @ 330
If there were a UK Taleban Party trying to recruit members - to create a society in which females could not be educated - do you think they would have any opportunity to achieve power?
well that's what I was kind of asking YOU!
in my world, they'd have zero chance since they wouldn't be able to stand
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324. DistantTraveller
I am disturbed by it too but its one of the warts of democracy. I hate any form of blanket discrimination but that isnt my point.
I merely point out that if you ban a party because they have views which are detrimental to "society" then where do you stop who decides where we stop.
Given our governments record on individual rights, detention without charge, lop side extradition treaties disregard for parliamentary process, DNA databases creeping state surveillance, misuse of anti terror laws etc we certainly know that this lot are not to be trusted.
So who do we trust once we cross the line of banning parties. I don’t mind banning parties who advocate violence. Sagamix wanst to ban parties that want to merely suggest that we discuss race discrimination. Im sure that will stretch to sex discrimination too. See his Taliban post.
What if I want ban parties that discriminate against rich people by imposing oppressive taxation regimes on high earners is that valid?
Once you cross the line and let others decide what or who you can vote for we are stuffed. You hand over your options to well intended socialist and we all know where that takes us.
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Andy @ 314
I suppose the 'saga' bit was a giveaway if you are indeed a pensioner
a pensioner! ... I wish
no, my "name" is equine related
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I've just read the report from the BBC trust on the news pages of this site. It includes Hain's whining, patronising admonishment about what he thinks the BBC should do and not do. It's rather sickening. I suppose he doesn't care about the state of the nation and our 71 million population, 2/3 down to immigration, in a couple of decades. If he's so good, why isn't HE doing something to improve our lot? Is he hoping the attendant problems will go away by themselves?
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325. sagamix.
in your day to day life, you don't hear, see or feel any of these things do you? - it's "reactionary outrage thrice removed" ... am I right?
Of course they dont affect me on a day to day basis so what.
Does the BNP affect you on a day to day basis or ever even.
Just because you and i live a drone like exisitance doesnt mean we should allow the state to shut down our righst so that is all we can ever do.
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The principle argument of the mainstream parties seems to that of the BNP gaining legitimacy in the eyes of voters if they are permitted to appear on Question Time.
Am I correct then, if I say that the votes of those who supported the BNP in both the recent local council and Euro elections were not legitimately cast?
Is the next step here in the UK, the one of following Mugabe's 'democracy'? Where "Your vote is only valid if you vote for me".
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I think Griffin will likely outdo all the grandees on the program including Dimbleby..but that does not make him right...Hitler could usually outdo most with his talk but was a little wrong on his substance
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andy @ 327
Trouble seems to be that, though it would grate on my soul to do so, I would allow those parties to stand, and you, it would seem, would not
dunno - we've only covered the BNP
Who gets to decide what thoughts are and are not allowed to be thought? You?
don't worry Andy, your thoughts are yours and yours alone! - think you mean who decides which parties are acceptable, don't you?
fair question - and no, not me (doh!) - I'd say "we" (society) decide and we base it on what "we" deem acceptable as expressed in The Law Of The Land
how's that?
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c @ 341
Just because you and I live a drone like exiistance doesn't mean we should allow the state to shut down our rights so that is all we can ever do
no it doesn't - was just an observation is all
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329.
Carrots no great thoughts required. These are the kind of checks the paranoid classes (Daily Mail readers) have been clamouring for years. Don't like the outcome? Maybe you can suggest an alternative. Pity they weren't more stringent in the Nursery schools. Its not perfect I agree but there are bad people out there.
My way would actually be easier and I suspect more effective. No state checks and intrusion and really long draconian sentences for anyone who seriously offends sexually against children. I would never release an offender without a life time tag being installed inside the body. If they didn’t agree to that then they would not be allowed out.
My way is simple and effective and you don’t have to check who is an offender because hardly any of them are free and those that at large beep once a minute.
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Every actions and inactions taken by governments and businesses without the interest of UK at their heart are subliminal suggestions, encouragements and advertisements for extreme groups.
The financial crisis which finally erupted a year ago, was the biggest disaster for UK and its financial sovereignty. Go to the city, go to the trading rooms and see how many non-white faces you can find.
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344 sagamix
fair question - and no, not me (doh!) - I'd say "we" (society) decide and we base it on what "we" deem acceptable as expressed in The Law Of The Land
how's that?
---
Bit difficult as a part of society "we" (not me), disagree with you as to what is acceptable. You don't speak for "we"
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#338 carrots
"I merely point out that if you ban a party because they have views which are detrimental to "society" then where do you stop who decides where we stop."
Yes, that's exactly the problem. I'm not advocating banning the BNP by the way - but why should we feel under any obligation to give them a public platform, such as on BBC's Question Time? Whilst they want 'free speech' for their own odious views, they do not show respect to others. It's a case of people expecting to us to be tolerant them, while they themselves are intolerant of others.
By the way, similar questions arise with regard to the United Nations. Why should countries which are themselves undemocratic be allowed to have a vote in passing resolutions? There is no legitimacy here.
Assuming the BNP is not being banned, they do still need to abide by the same laws as the rest of us (eg not barring people on grounds of ethnicity or race). Whilst this matter remains unresolved, I don't think they have any right to expect free publicity - particularly on the BBC.
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Still blogs about the BNP, getting all excited
But then you lead with the postal dispute on the News, What?
We could all thank the postal Union if they deliver the heads of Mandy and Brown, although I don't know how long the Royal mail will last on good will, poor relations, bad management, with a disappearing business plan and customers.
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How long before we see more single race/religion parties followed by peopel woting more on racial/religious lines? They will all demand the same treatment from the BBC.
BNP does not realise it is the thin edge of the wedge cracking open a wound which will severely weaken and may even kill the patient which is under treatment.
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JH 66
"The Labour Party and the BNP share a belief in the efficacy of the State. The State must be strong, and the individual must be weak. Individuals must be put into social classes and racial groups and judged accordingly. Both the BNP and Labour can loosely be called 'socialist', though to gain election Labour tends to hide its socialist tradition.
Both Labour and the BNP despise the classical liberal tradition of, for example, free speech."
There is so much nonsense here you don`t need a reply but an education.
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Hey Sagamix. see link, speaks for itself..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/6399010/Takeaway-customer-caused-criminal-damage-to-5-burger.html
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306. At 7:38pm on 21 Oct 2009, united_dreamer wrote:
"As if it matters. I have a 7 seater people carrier at my disposal."
Is a police check a bad thing? I guess the rise in cases of paedophiles being convicted and the accompanying scandal when those in power haven't stopped them happening may be the cause of more stringent process.
===========
It may not be a bad thing if you are a Coach ( I am) but when you need a new CCRB check for each role you have, and each one costs money, and they all come back the same, from the same people, then I for one smell corruption, someone has been given a licence to print money. Also there are now so many hoops to jump through forms to fill that I've had enough, I spend so much time on the guff to satisfy one or other of the agencies that demand I prove I'm innocent that it eventually wears you down and you say why bother?
Actually I have an Hypothesis, as you can't catch a 'would be Paedophile' by CRB checks, only convicted ones, I reckon that they keep loading us with stuff until they reach the point where only someone who was desperate to abuse kids would keep conforming, then they will simply arrest all youth workers. Okay I admit this is parody, but sometimes, just sometimes, I do wonder.
But why listen to a nobody like me, go and ask Philip Pullman, author of the Amber Spyglass series his opinion on having to fork out for visiting schools, I believe he told the authorities where they could put their Spyglass.
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If Question Time tomorrow night has larger than normal ratings, will the BBC claim it as some victory for democracy?
Or will they be honest and admit that appealing to peoples voyeuristic instincts and wish to see blood on the studio floor was the real reason?
This is nothing more than a Big Brother style stunt that Television has been pulling in this country for years; the QT producers and BBC management should be ashamed of themselves.
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It doesn't matter if you hate the BNP; they have successfully got people discussing the issues that get them votes. Newsnight tonight had a very powerful item on the success of the BNP in a very deprived, white working class area. A bunch of rich, privileged people sat in the London studio, earnestly discussing the issues. Millionaire, expenses-claiming Barbara Follett represented the Labour government. We may hate what the BNP say and how they say it, but let's not try to pretend any longer that there isn't a serious issue. And let's not pretend that the BNP invented this issue. They are feeding off it and getting strong from it, but they didn't create it.
Britain is a mess, and the mess is much, much worse for some than for others. Rich bankers, rich footballers, rich chat show hosts and expenses-rich politicians have it OK, and can appreciate New Labour's multicultural, metropolitan Britain. Those in the provinces, where jobs are scarce and nobody invests in malls, boutiques or business, grub along on minimum wage and with limited services.
New Labour! British jobs for British people! Don't make me laugh. All these people have to offer now are their votes, and they are giving them to people that seem to care about them. And that isn't Gordon - son of the Manse - Brown. Or Peter - ooh let's bash the posties - Mandelson.
These pathetic failures of politicians need to retire to obscurity and let someone tidy up the mess. I think it is too late to avoid civil unrest, and I cannot help feeling that sadly the BNP will have real MPs in Westminster next year. But maybe, just maybe, we can limit the damage by letting the Tories take over as soon as possible. Hopefully with a few Libdems and UKIPs in a coalition.
Begone Brown, begone Darling, begone all you Balls's and Milibands. And let's reform the House of Lords and clear out all the peers appointed in the last ten years. Give Britain back to the people.
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Barrel @ 348
You don't speak for "we"
no, the Law does
that was my point
still is, for that matter
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Bryhers,
Thank you for quoting my original contribution:
"The Labour Party and the BNP share a belief in the efficacy of the State. The State must be strong, and the individual must be weak. Individuals must be put into social classes and racial groups and judged accordingly. Both the BNP and Labour can loosely be called 'socialist', though to gain election Labour tends to hide its socialist tradition.
Both Labour and the BNP despise the classical liberal tradition of, for example, free speech."
I was becoming concerned that it would be passed over in silence. Do you disagree with my analysis of a) Labour; b) the BNP; c) both?
Generally fascist parties (National Socialist) believe in a strong State. They also are illiberal. I believe in neither of these things, Do you?
If we progress beyond this point we can proceed to the next step, an analysis of the left, and the UK Labour Party in particular.
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carrots @ 353
speaks for itself? ... what, that you shouldn't order burgers from a pizza parlour?
no but seriously, what a silly prosecution
let's just be glad that cases like that are so rare they make headline news in the Daily Telegraph!
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@ 302
What has NuLabour stopped me doing? well not much but then I don’t really live on the edge
bet you DO though, Carrots! ... bet you undo the buttons now and again!
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#337, sagamix wrote:
"fairly @ 330
If there were a UK Taleban Party trying to recruit members - to create a society in which females could not be educated - do you think they would have any opportunity to achieve power?
well that's what I was kind of asking YOU!
in my world, they'd have zero chance since they wouldn't be able to stand
Saga,
But in your world, you want parties to have women candidates as MPs, regardless of whether they are better or more qualified than other candidates.
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This comment is awaiting moderation.
They're here!!!
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As far as I know (and I may have missed a comment) no one has mentioned the Battle of Cable Street, which is surely relevant in this discussion.
So:
a) was using violence to combat Mosely justified?
b) is violence to combat the BNP justified today?
c) why does the left glorify Cable Street?
My (inconclusive) answers
a) possibly, difficult question given the historical situation at the the time
b) no
c) because some elements on the left have an exaggerated respect for political violence
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Sagamix
You have still to explain how this law would work and how you would prevent others using this precedent from banning other parties or ideas they did not like.
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Sagamix
No doubt you will like this too. More worthy socialist censorship to keep me safe.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/outrage-at-government-plan-for-secret-inquests-1806867.html
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358. johnharris66
"Do you disagree with my analysis of a) Labour; b) the BNP; c) both?"
I disagree with your claim that it deserves to be called "analysis".
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So, now Nick Griffen says "Thank you Auntie"
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6884780.ece
Can we now expect even more racism on the BBC (and on some of theses blogs)? That would seem to be a logical progression.
The BBC was not obliged to give the BNP a platform and free publicity but has chosen to do so. Let us hope it is not the boost that the BNP is hoping for.
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#335. ghostofsichuan
absolutely spot on.
There is a thin veneer of civilisation in this country, occasionally a pot comes to the boil and we see scenes like those at Grunwick, the hippy convoy, the miners strike, poll tax riots, Brixton, northern mill towns etc. Mostly these are single issues, too much pressure in one spot and someone or something kicks off, pressure released and carry on as normal.
There are too many pots just simmering under the surface at the moment, reposessions, unemployment, bankers, expenses, immigration, strikes etc. people are under too much pressure already and still more pressure from all sides pile on.
Income tax to rise 7%, vat on food (ie food to rise 17.5%) energy bills to rise 60% above inflation, stealth taxes on everything else, population to rise to 71million.
And for what ?
This country is rapidly becoming a dystopian nightmare, the BNP is a minor side issue, a distraction brought to the fore to obscure the real issues that lay before us.
What kind of world did you want to live in ?
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368. BobRocket
"What kind of world did you want to live in ?"
Can I have the one without the whining doom-mongers?
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#369 Electric Hermit
No, you wanted the one without the whining doom-mongers.
I wanted the one where people could actually read what is written, not the one where they just jump straight in with their prejudged trolling.
Looks like neither of got what we wanted then.
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#370
I missed the word 'us' out, insert it where you think it most appropriate
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370. BobRocket
Please! Don't let me interrupt. You go back to enjoying your "dystopian nightmare". I'll just stay here in the dull old ordinary world.
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371. BobRocket
"I missed the word 'us' out, insert it where you think it most appropriate"
There is no "us", Bob. It's over. It isn't me. It's you.
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This week I've lost count of the number of times I've heard Brown and other politicians mention the words "democracy" and "Afghanistan", stopping an elected politician speaking in this country would be pure hypocrisy!
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On another issue, are reports of al megrahi's demise premature ?
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I would like to praise the BBC for not being swayed from outside pressure to stop the BNP from being on Question Time.
Every party that has this amount of support deserves a voice.
It seems to me that a lot of people and the other parties are getting 'a bit worried' about the BNP's rise and are doing all they can, albeit sometimes underhandedly,to thwart it.
Shouldn't they ask themselves why that is?? If the main parties were addressing some of these problems perhaps the BNP would noy be on the rise.
It amazes me that they can't see it.
It has nothing to do with 'race' but 'common sense'. Our doors must be closed now as our national identity and way of life is being taken away. We also havn't got enough homes, jobs, school places for our own people and the Health Service is under strain from over population and from immigrants who come to the UK on 'work visas' and immediately get NHS treatment even though they have not paid a penny into this country. Could we do that in their country? I dont think so.
British people (including long-standing non-white British) are getting fed up with it!
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" I would like to praise the BBC for not being swayed from outside pressure to stop the BNP from being on Question Time."
Re 376
Indeed,the reply from the BBC to Labour ministers was inspired, and knocked the ball back into their court.
The government were told "If you want to ban the BNP legislate and make them as a illegal party".I cant see Mr G Brown having the "stones" to do that....end of argument
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
SLAN @ 377
If you want to ban the BNP, legislate and make them an illegal party. I can't see Mr G Brown having the stones to do that
me neither, what a pity
bet Harriet would though!
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Reading the posts from last night, sagamix's especially, reminds me of that line from the old song on Spitting Image:
"One man, one vote, and that man is me."
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Jeez, I expect half of the regular posters here to deteste New Labours actions that end with our civil liberties being eroded. However, I can see quite a few believe the British National Party should not allowed to attend Question Time despite representing part of British society.
You are prepared to disregard the freedon of expression and right to free speech, for what? It appears I no longer have reason to fear the far right, as it seems I am already witnessing the traits of dictatorship being carried out by the so-called 'civil society' that we apparently are.
Is Great Britain honestly a racist country that you are afraid of allowing the BNP leader a platform? Is there some fear that the free publicity will result in the entire country gathering behind the BNP and their policies?
If Great Britain is not a racist country, believes in democracy then you must be prepared to fight for those principals and all else that you hold dear. I am loosing confidence in this country, simple actions by the Government and Opposition against the BNP and the rise of the right including Unite Against Fascism (a horrible organisation, you can't fight an ideology through violence and fear) gives me the impression that we are not as liberal as we appear and with too much publicity the BNP will become so popular Nick G will be our next Prime Minister.
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337. At 9:30pm on 21 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
fairly @ 330
If there were a UK Taleban Party trying to recruit members - to create a society in which females could not be educated - do you think they would have any opportunity to achieve power?
well that's what I was kind of asking YOU!
in my world, they'd have zero chance since they wouldn't be able to stand
------------------
Lets just examine your world shall we.
A world where labour bring in a new law about what? once every couple of hours or so? If you know the number they have brought in so far and can do the math then please do.
And a world where a political party that stands for something currently against the law cannot field a single candidate.
Do you really not see the problem here?
Saga - a totalitarian socialist who doesn't even realise it.
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#381 Thomas_Porter
Is Great Britain honestly a racist country that you are afraid of allowing the BNP leader a platform? Is there some fear that the free publicity will result in the entire country gathering behind the BNP and their policies?
================================
Of course it isn't, but in the tiny minds of the "rational, clear-thinking progressives" that infect this country, none of us are trustworthy enough to think for ourselves, and we should all knuckle down and do/think what we're told to. Isn't freedom wonderful!
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Thomas @ 381
Is Great Britain honestly a racist country that you are afraid of allowing the BNP leader a platform?
am tempted to just say YES but perhaps that's too glib
but then again why waffle? ... Yes
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"sagamix wrote:
mark @ 317
here we're discussing a UK political party (running for office) which is based on racial discrimination and the incitement of racial hatred
these "extrapolations" are both nonsensical and irrelevant"
I personally find it odd that you support the existance of a political party which was the political wing of a terrorist group which was responsible for the murder of hundreds of innocent people and yet you are calling for the BNP to be banned for what many would argue are lesser crimes.
Personally I don't support or agree with either party but they are both legal parties in this country and on that basis should be allowed to stand in elections.
"Liberty as a concept suggests that people's actions should be based on their will and not laws, imposing laws to limit people's liberties is against the entire concept!
no - liberty MUST be constrained by what society deems are acceptable boundaries, as expressed and implemented via the Law - what you are describing is Anarchy"
Total liberty IS anarchy, the phrase that you claimed to stand by as your values arose from the French Revolution which WAS a period of anarchy where the downtrodden "mob" rose up against the elite. I am sure that laws were broken in the pursuit of liberty during the French Revolution!
Liberty confined by laws is not really liberty as the very process of law allows for the "elite" to impose their will on the "mob".
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By the end of the next parliament many of us will be struggling to both feed ourselves and heat our homes on this already overcrowded island. This is an inevitable consequence of having passed the peak of oil production. The BNP at least acknowledge the problem and have a section of their website devoted to it. The mainstream parties and mainstream media prefer to keep the public ignorant. A policy of halting immigration is the only sensible course of action. I know which party I would trust to enforce this.
My wife is Thai. The ruling party in Thailand is 'Thai rak (love) Thai'. It unashamedly puts the indigenous Thai population ahead of foreigners in all things. Putting their own people should be the first and foremost priority of the government of every country. I wish we had such a government in this country.
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anybody @ 382
sorry Sweet, I've never in my life met a Clear Thinking Progressive who was even remotely attracted to totalitarianism - if they were, they'd lose their CTP status - they'd have to hand in their badge and everything that goes with it ... be awkward and messy, and generally not something that any of us (including you, I'm sure) would wish to see
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"sagamix wrote:
fairly @ 330
If there were a UK Taleban Party trying to recruit members - to create a society in which females could not be educated - do you think they would have any opportunity to achieve power?
well that's what I was kind of asking YOU!
in my world, they'd have zero chance since they wouldn't be able to stand"
Why shouldn't they be able to stand? The should be able to present the platform that they will be standing on and the voters should decide if they agree or disagree with their policies.
However, the very fact that their platform would instantly put off the vast majority of the population would mean that they would not get elected.
Banning them from standing removes the chance of their supporters having a voice - in other words taking the rights away from a "minority"
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"sagamix wrote:
fair question - and no, not me (doh!) - I'd say "we" (society) decide and we base it on what "we" deem acceptable as expressed in The Law Of The Land
how's that?"
In other words IF in the future a party decided to outlaw all other parties because it was likely to lose power at the next election you would support that party because the ban would be "The Law of The Land"?
If you use laws to ban political parties you run the risk of a government changing the law to ban their opposition and sleep walking into a dictatorship
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387. At 09:10am on 22 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
anybody @ 382
sorry Sweet, I've never in my life met a Clear Thinking Progressive who was even remotely attracted to totalitarianism - if they were, they'd lose their CTP status - they'd have to hand in their badge and everything that goes with it ... be awkward and messy, and generally not something that any of us (including you, I'm sure) would wish to see
---------------------------------------------
Saga, are you really such a hypocrite to believe that the label you attach to yourself doesn't have to in any way match your views and beliefs?
Perhaps you're simply in denial.
You want to ban organizations you personally don't like but others (maybe somewhat misguidedly) do.
Politically what would you call that? What kind of politicians from history most closely match that view?
You can call yourself a progresive whatever as much as you like, what your comments show is an 'I know whats best for everyone else' attitude - and thats exactly how many of the problems in society start?
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Guys, I hope that brick wall isnt hurting your heads too much.
Planet Clear Thinking Progressive is the one of the biggest misnomers I've ever heard in my life. Theres nothing that is either clear, requires much thinking or is in the remotest bit progressive about it.
But if you think you can de-programme Saga, good luck.
Might try him at the Priory for a month or so, see if he can go cold turkey... but otherwise, IMHO, I think you'll have more success knitting fog.
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"sagamix wrote:
anybody @ 382
sorry Sweet, I've never in my life met a Clear Thinking Progressive who was even remotely attracted to totalitarianism - if they were, they'd lose their CTP status - they'd have to hand in their badge and everything that goes with it ... be awkward and messy, and generally not something that any of us (including you, I'm sure) would wish to see"
So just to be clear the CTP view is that they would support changing the law to ban a legal political party?
And they believe that Liberty must be confined by the laws of the land (regardless of how strict they are)
CTP might not support totalitarianism, but if you allow a government to follow your views to their logical conclusion you could well end up with totalitarian rule.
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389#
Lets just be thankful that he doesnt have his hands anywhere near the levers of meaningful political activism.....
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386. Yorchichan
"My wife is Thai. The ruling party in Thailand is 'Thai rak (love) Thai'. It unashamedly puts the indigenous Thai population ahead of foreigners in all things. Putting their own people should be the first and foremost priority of the government of every country. I wish we had such a government in this country."
There's a difference between putting your country first and being a
racist dressed up as patriot.
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Leave sagamix for five minutes and he's back on the progressive soap box. This has been newlabour policy for twelve years so why change it now? Repeat a lie often enough and with conviction and eventually people will believe you.
No they won't.
So the claim to the progressive agenda so loftily hoisted by sagamix and his newlabour cronies is so far from the truth as to be beneath contempt.
How is the progressive agenda progressing anything other than those who pledge their political allegiance and bidability?
Dame Suzi Leather; Lady Patricia Scotland; Maggie Atkinson are all tarred with the same brush of political allegiance in what are supposed to be independent positions.
There is nothing progressive about this blatantly biased system and newlabour have been at it for twelve years.
Public sector patronage is what newlabour really mean when they say progressive. Otherwise how do newlabour explain the appointment of Maggie Atkinson by Ed 'the bully' Balls when a commons select committee has deemed her to 'lack independence of mind'? Patronage and bidability.
The idea that ordinary people will sit by and say or do nothing while the likes of sagamix and their apologists wreak this kind of havoc in what they laughingly refer to as their progressive democracy is utter folly. Romania under Ceaucescu was more progressive than the totalitarianism of sagamix and his clear thinking progressives; the only clear thinking they ever did was about how to cling on to power at whatever cost to our democracy and economy.
It is a shambles of the highest order - laughing in our faces about their ability to wreck our country while they still can.
They will pay a very heavy price for this arrogance and history will judge this to be one of the worst periods in British history for many centuries; a weak leader, a weak government, a corrupt and toadying political class.
Call an election
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An invitation to spread more hate, to spread more fear, the BNP have moved from facists in "doctor martens" to facists in "suits2 but have the same remit. Hope the decision does not came back to haunt the BBC
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Personally, I am trying to figure out what it is that people who want to ban the BNP are so afraid of. If it is our system of democracy that they fear, then it is our society they fear as well. In which case they are saying they believe the BNP has enough support to be able persuade the people of Britain they are right. If this is the case then our society is divided anyway therefore no ban will stop people from seeking out the BNP and supporting them. A ban will most probably have the opposite effect where people will actively seek out information to understand why the BNP is being victimised.
I not only agree with the BBC, I admire them for not allowing the usual suspects who would close down our democracy to gain the upper hand yet again.
I do not like the Labour Party for taking away a lot of our freedoms, sending young men to die in unwinnable wars or bringing this Countries economy down. I think this is much more of a crime than allowing a small party like the BNP to have an hour on a televised political programme. Would I seek to ban the Labour party for doing more to damage Britain than ever the BNP can do, no I would not.
We all have our likes and dislikes, however in a democracy people vote for what they want. The BNP, whether we like it or not is now a legitimate party within Britain. The best way to deal with this is to give them as much exposure as possible. The reason is you can only break down arguments of any political party if you know about them. Adam Bolton did an interview with Griffin and absolutely broke every argument Griffin had. This is the proper way forward.
The political parties in this Country that have done such a bad job of representing us and have allowed the BNP to gain ground, should fear them because it exposes their failings, members of the public should not. I believe the people of Britain will do the right thing, you only fear and want to ban something if underneath it all, you believe they have a good case. I personally do not believe they have, so I do not fear the BNP.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This was an invitation? And any invitation to spread more fear and more hate in my book is a bad decision. Although Griffin will re-brand it, the BNP have not changed since the 70's, the only change is that they now wear smart suits instead of Doc Martens.
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The whole issue of BNP participation on Question Time (or anything else) says more about political correctness at the BBC than it does about the BNP. The BNP has been deemed an organisation of "bad people" by the BBC PC Police, and all BBC staff now need to try and outdo each other in how shrill they can get in denouncing them.
Let's add a bit of perspective. Firstly, think back to Euro election night. David Dimbleby got the ball rolling when interviewing the first BNP candidate to win election. Incidentally, he's so memorable I can't even remember his name. Dimbleby set a very high horse level indeed for his colleagues to beat in terms of mounting thereof. We were treated to the guy's history of political activism, including dragging up memberships of other groups/parti