Conferences: Not what they used to be
Another half-empty conference hall this morning. It's been like that most days at all the major party conferences. Thousands of people there but few of them willing to sit through the pre-packed, made-for-TV, corporate-away-day-style presentations that the parties have substituted for what we used to call debates.
Tory conferences were always the most stage-managed of all but nevertheless I can still remember ferocious debates:
• about Rhodesia (as was) in the year Margaret Thatcher came to power in 1979
• about the economy in 1981 when the former Prime Minister Ted Heath spoke from the conference floor and told conference not to applaud as "it will annoy and irritate your neighbours"
• about Europe when in 1992 Norman Tebbit angrily pointing his finger at Prime Minister John Major in the row about the Maastricht Treaty which tore this party apart
Of course that list explains why the leadership wanted to snuff debate out. The same is true with Labour after defeats on so-called contemporary motions such as the embarrassing 75p rise in the state pension. Even the Lib Dems - the most democratic of the lot - moved to quieten down their conference after debates about goldfish, prostitution and the future of the monarchy.
It's not that the conferences have died. The fringe meetings are packed with lively political talk, so too the cafes and the bars. What's happened is that they have mutated into part political bazaar - where those whose career is politics, whether candidates, MPs, lobbyists or political journalists, meet to do their trade - and part political festival. Think Glastonbury for politicos without, of course, the mud, the music nor, deary me no, the drugs.
Chris Grayling's gaffe was seized on by tired hacks sick of the dreary conference stage management. Just as Cherie Blair's indiscretion was when she walked past a TV showing Gordon Brown speaking and said in a stage whisper "that's a lie". As was the delightful moment when Charles Kennedy's pre-speech photo opportunity went awry. "What are you in for?" he asked the hospital patient who just declared that he'd be voting for the Lib Dems. The painful reply was "brain surgery".
Perhaps the spin doctors will begin to realise that spending hours shaping speeches that are delivered to empty halls and ignored by your own party workers, let alone large parts of the media, is not serving them well, let alone everyone else.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~31~RS~)
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I've gotta admit I feel sorry for Kennedy on that one. Quite a good post though nick, I had noticed that they all appeared to quiet, but I'd put that down to more of a apathy towards politicians at the moment rather than people going to the side shows instead.
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Are you suprised the hall is half empty ?
Listening to a dirge from Kirkhope !!!
Now we see the leader of a construction board co.MDF A good material.
If Cameron is to be the highlight,better not hold my breath !
Nick,what wee mistake is it to be today ?
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Hmm! It looked reasonably busy to me, busier than the Labour one!
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Probably an effect of having professional politicians now. Now the idea having the leaders' debate is further insulation from the real world. I imagine that we see several 0-0-0 draws occuring. I can see this getting worse with creeping Europisation as the elected politicians try and avoid the real world.
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It doesn't surprise me that the political parties call them conferences when they don't actually fit the description of a 'conference'. They do the same thing when they call the UK a 'great democracy'.
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Nice non-controversial blog topic today Nick!!
Let's see how long it takes before Inheritance Tax and General Dannatt become the subject under discussion.
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"Chris Grayling's gaffe was seized on by tired hacks"
yes, some of them even wrote blogs on the topic.
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It's just "politics imitating the real world" - go to nay large business, education or scientific conference of the past few years and you'll find relatively poorly attended large "plenary" sessions with staged presentations from figureheads while the real, cutting-edge, business is delivered in smaller, fringe "breakout" sessions.
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As was the delightful moment when Charles Kennedy's pre-speech photo opportunity went awry. "What are you in for?" he asked the hospital patient who just declared that he'd be voting for the Lib Dems. The painful reply was "brain surgery".
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Actually made me laugh out loud, forgotten all about that one. Priceless, thanks for the reminder.
On a slightly more serious note, is there anyone who didn't already know Brown is a liar? The fact that everyone knows it, everyone says it, and he can still be Prime Minister is a real indictment on our democracy.
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Twisting in the wind eh?
Looking for something to report?
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4#
Inclined to agree with you on that.
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Yes it seems that all this Gloom projected for a future Tory Britain has finally got through to all Conservatives in attendence, for it be so very worrying for them to have to keep moving their vast wealths in Savings around, even off-shore so that they can be sure to be one step ahead of the Tax-Man.
But then Hey, if they win the next General Election they can always seek advice from one Boy George within their Rank's.
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The best thing that could happen would be for the media to stop reporting these puerile party conferences. In fact, if it wasn't for media employees themselves being interested (or rather getting paid to be there), nobody else in the country would care. Caledonian Comment
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Are you at the right venue,Nick?
Just watched Hagues' speech and it looked pretty full.
How's the PM???
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Personally I've paid very little attention to any of the conferences as the speeches are invariably full of rhetoric, spin, and hot air. Some parties blatantly ignore their election manifesto promises so why should we pay any attention to their speeches?
As far as I can tell all the parties are just testing the water to see what the public reaction is like to some of their ideas. It's hardly riveting as I suspect most of the attendees are more interested in what the papers/blogs will be saying afterwards.
Plus, I suspect the real business of politics will be being done in these cafes, bars, and fringe meetings you speak of - when the alternative is just to sit in a big hall for hours on end and clap when you're told too I can understand completely why they're half empty these days. After all, if you heckle or try and debate these days, you get removed and arrested under terrorism legislation, don't you?
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"Diabloandco wrote:
Hmm! It looked reasonably busy to me, busier than the Labour one!"
The average ghost town is busier than the Labour conference was this year!
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Mr.Robinson wrote:
"Another half-empty conference hall this morning. It's been like that most days at all the major party conferences. Thousands of people there but few of them willing to sit through the pre-packed, made-for-TV, corporate-away-day-style presentations that the parties have substituted for what we used to call debates."
Empty halls and tired speeches are the fault of you television guys because TV is now the main political forum and not political speeches or parties.
Party membership, Labour and Conservative,is now a fifth of what it was in the fifties,trade membership has also declined, so these agencies of political socialisation are in abeyance.Add to that much greater labour mobility and you begin to see why electorates more volatile than in the past.
Statements by leaders are geared to news frequencies,or held back if they reflect negatively on the party.Television news magazines
like Newsnight or Andrew Marr take their agendas from newspapers, so the relationship between politics and the media becomkes even more incestuous.
The focus group and soundbite rounds of this inclusive circle of press,broadcasting and politician.Mr.Robinson knows all this so perhaps he has some constructive suggestions as to how the electorate can be brought back into the political process which affects their lives.
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@6
I'll give it till post 30
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So having set out such a statement, how about comparing and contrasting?
You've been to all the three main ones, so maybe well placed to comment
Without the compare and contrast the comment appears to lack balance, and probably something that could have become a blog post for tomorrow or next week.
Surely the conferences have drawn up the "dividing lines"?
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I think all the delegates over 55 and on the sick have gone home fearing Dom Littlewood might jump out from behind the podium and
catch them licking envelopes. And Nick there's a definite lack of
presence of the old blue rinse brigade,orchestrated or location.
No doubt back to Bournemouth next year?
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2#
Afternoon, Derek.....
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This comment will inevitably be moderated. No need to Explain.
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Tory delegates outnumbered by BBC staff?
Shush!(?) Cuts are coming!
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why does Cherie Bliar need protection officers ? and who pays for them ???
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I was appalled last night to hear Nick while being interviewed on the BBC news about the conference refer to Cameron as the Prime Minister, this may well be wishful thinking on Nicks part but please let the rest of us decide , Cameron is a long way from becoming Prime Minister there is an election to have and we dont need biased reporting to help him
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yes it's a shame - another symptom of the age of spin, isn't it?
and it IS a shame too because some tory conference speeches are probably much better live than on the telly (like a Bernard Manning gig ... so I'm told ... back when he was still going gigs down here instead of up there)
Osborne's for example, so spot on to keep saying we're all "in it together" - because we are, aren't we? - not just for a couple of years either, it's going to take MANY parliaments to sort out the financial mess we're in, and to have any chance whatsoever we will have to put our petty political differences aside and pull together - a long term coherent and coordinated programme of state sponsored action is now required
will it involve swingeing tax rises on the better off? ... OH YES INDEEDY!
will it actually mean some tax rises on all but the poorest? ... SADLY IT WILL
and will we have to watch our public spending a little bit?
... well I suppose so, yes
we're talking a 25 YR NATIONAL PLAN aren't we?
a plan guided by the principles of that 9 letter word starting with "S"
a quarter century of austerity just to clean up the debris from the global credit crunch - thank you Willy Wall St - cheers Charlie City
capitalism puts us down in the hole ... socialism drops the rope ladder
was it ever any other way?
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1939
1979
2009
Does anyone else see the significance in the '9' here?
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Why anyone would attend or watch conference is beyond me. These days they appear no more than a rubber stamp for policies decided months in advance. Robotic speakers reciting from an autocue with no passion behind their words.
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Should be packed for Cameron's speach later. He usually delivers a good speach, apart from the year when he went on about Let Sunshine Win The Day or something.
I like the conferrences but Labour didn't seem to come up with any (funded) policies. Brown just listed things he'd like to do but if there's no money left how is he going to pay for it?
At least the Tories have come up with proper savings. Lib Dems did too I think.
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So anyway, back to Inheritance Tax and General Dannatt
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If in future they apply the proposed new drinking laws to party conferences, delegates will be able to go to bed earlier and wake up without hangovers.
In my experience, even business conferences are excuses for drunkenness and debauchery, with lie-ins either desirable or inevitable. I have even known an early-morning speaker to have missed his own meeting after falling asleep while rebuilding his PowerPoint deck.
Never agree to be the first speaker of the day (except on the first day). Never agree to be the first speaker after lunch.
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Confernece Not what they used to be.
News Not what it used to be.
Remember the Sunday Times Insight Team and Thaemidamide investigation back in the 60's.
Well We have Sharron Sixsmith and the Baby P fiasco and the political pingpong for who is going to take the blame for this. Eh it will not be Ed Balls, Harman and straw for this. Not even after the report on Birmingham soical services.
Politically this should be a mammoth one resulting in heads rolling in cabinet but it will only become one when Nick desides to report it as such.
Until then more children die and more roof top protests and jail for the privialge of pointing this out
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There should be debate!
It makes a mockery of democracy to avoid discussion on the major topics.
The whole point of this is that there should be varying viewpoints within a party or else it just assumes that not one politician represents his constituents.
Oh. you know what I have done there - I have forgotten that we are surrounded by career politics now. It has little to do with the electorates views now doesn't it. What an idiot I have been.
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18. At 12:20pm on 08 Oct 2009, calmandhope wrote:
"@6
I'll give it till post 30"
No, it was started by #6. Pointless post, just like yours at 18 and mine at whatever number I get. Why do we fill up threads with such nonsense?
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#18 Calmandhope
unlucky, saga got you at 26
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#26 your so wrong itr was not capitalism that was the problem. The problem lies with those that oversaw it and did not understand how it works BUT wanted the golden egg money to spend spend spend on there pet projects. NR,RBS and BOS should have been allowed to go to the wall in a manner that protected the depositors and the lower level workers rights but all other aspects should have been let go and those senior management left to rot. Then we would not have had the pile of debt other that that created by Spendalot himself. They sold a false prospectuse that we can have sweedsh type social care and US tax rules.
And that is fundamentally the problem, to recongise
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#26 Good ole saga
Just by way of clarification
You write
"we're talking a 25 YR NATIONAL PLAN aren't we?
a plan guided by the principles of that 9 letter word starting with "S" "
I don't want to be too picky but Sagamix has only 7 letters
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27. At 12:48pm on 08 Oct 2009, nautonier wrote:
1939
1979
2009
Does anyone else see the significance in the '9' here?
----
Nein
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Just wondering what time do all those that post as Mike Naylor get let out?
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"nautonier wrote:
Tory delegates outnumbered by BBC staff?
Shush!(?) Cuts are coming!"
I would expect that is an example of BBC overkill more than anything, isn't it true the the BBC took more staff to the Olympic games in China than the British Olympic team? Or is that just an Urban Legend?
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"hpomroy wrote:
I was appalled last night to hear Nick while being interviewed on the BBC news about the conference refer to Cameron as the Prime Minister, this may well be wishful thinking on Nicks part but please let the rest of us decide , Cameron is a long way from becoming Prime Minister there is an election to have and we dont need biased reporting to help him"
I think Labour is having to make cuts to their "astroturfing" if this is the latest example of their work!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"U14147588 wrote:
#26 Good ole saga
Just by way of clarification
You write
"we're talking a 25 YR NATIONAL PLAN aren't we?
a plan guided by the principles of that 9 letter word starting with "S" "
I don't want to be too picky but Sagamix has only 7 letters"
But Sagamixes has 9 - perhaps some cloning is going on somewhere? It would explain why Labour is spending money so fast they are trying to clone new voters!
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"Exiledscot52 wrote:
Just wondering what time do all those that post as Mike Naylor get let out?"
If they all work for the civil service they are probably on a two hour lunch break :)
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God even North Korea only try to get it wrong on a 5 yearly cycle....
Is it 25 so that those that knew what was being said will be dead and those that remain won't remember. Sounds like a good idea......
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39. At 1:17pm on 08 Oct 2009, Exiledscot52 wrote:
Just wondering what time do all those that post as Mike Naylor get let out?
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It seems to vary. I think that Charlie has it scheduled for the 4pm-5pm slot this week.
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Tories new catchphrase when are all in it together. no way if they where in power now it would have been sink or swim for everyone. banks to the wall businesses bust massive unemployment. all a price worth paying just like the last time they were in power. Cameron and his gang are all well cushioned from they pain with their millions.
they will decrease the pensions no more winter payments, tax credits minimum wage will go or stand still become worthless. question is will the English fall for it again
The debt was created to invest in the people save the banks prevent even more mass unemployment. sure it has to be paid back but when the country's economy is strong not now. people borrow money to invest in businesses.
so England The question for you is will you fall for their con again. what is more important to you to pay of the debt now. taking billions of pounds out of the economy money that will not be spent on cars food services ect causing the loss of millions of jobs. or do you vote for the party that invested in the people you.
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It'll be interesting to see what was wrong with my post at #42.
I think I hit at least 3 targets, but was on topic, was relevant, was not defamatory in any way, did not use rude language, did not insult the mods, ah now it's clear
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#38
Ha!
#39
He won't make an appearance in this thread as it's not about Conservative policy. Wait for the post about David Cameron's speech and the many faces of Mike will be out to ruin any semblance of debate between the real left and right posters.
As for this topic I agree with a lot of what has already been said. One of the crippling factors of debate is the media. The parties have become so self-aware and so PR driven that they dare not make a mistake or express a negative argument on a subject. So instead we get vetted statements in place of opinionated argument. The same is true of question dodging when being interviewed. MPs rarely answer a question with an actual opinion and instead defer to the party line -- sometimes this doesn't even have anything to do with the question that was asked.
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12. At 12:12pm on 08 Oct 2009, LondonHarris wrote:
Yes it seems that all this Gloom projected for a future Tory Britain has finally got through to all Conservatives in attendence, for it be so very worrying for them to have to keep moving their vast wealths in Savings around, even off-shore so that they can be sure to be one step ahead of the Tax-Man.
But then Hey, if they win the next General Election they can always seek advice from one Boy George within their Rank's.
===========
Wow - didn't take long for the politics of envy to rear its ugly hypocritical head did it.
I gues you didn't see the size of the house tony brought recently without a mortgage did you?
But then wealth is ok, as long as its 'socialist' wealth right?
Pathetic.
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#43 Mark_WE
what a ghastly thought, multiple sagamixes.
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Nick,
"Perhaps the spin doctors will begin to realise that spending hours shaping speeches that are delivered to empty halls and ignored by your own party workers, let alone large parts of the media, is not serving them well, let alone everyone else."
Maybe the media who claim to be reporting on political events should bother to listen to more of the stuff and focus less on their own importance.
Frankly, Nick, if you make a gaffe it doesn't cost the country billions - or lives.
If governments make gaffes - but then describe them as "the right thing at the right time" - it can cost working people their livelihoods.
Spot the difference?
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46/39#
Too late, it looks as if one of them is out already, at 47....
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51. At 1:46pm on 08 Oct 2009, U14147588 wrote:
#43 Mark_WE
what a ghastly thought, multiple sagamixes.
----
Is the collective noun a 'spart' of sagamixes?
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#47
I know that this can be accessed via the internet from all over the world, but you might try to post in a language we can understand.
Its quite acceptable to expose woolly minded thinking, in fact we get a lot of it, but there are some things it is impossible to unnerstand
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50#
Yeah. Someone ask Bob Crowe how much he earns a year. That'd be a good start.
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#49 Agree wholeheartedly with you. Becoming too much like a "presedential" race. I wish we could keep that approach out of our politics. If we had parties that had to form a concensus as to the policy things would be so much better.
This posturing by the leaders of all the parties is febrile and lacking substance.
With some form of concensus we might see less gaffes as things may at least have been discussed. But that doesn't excuse reporters. Reporter? One who tells you what has happened, when was a reporters opinion thought worth soliciting?
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51
I wonder what the appropriate term for that would be. A pack? A school?
I favour gaggle I think.
A gaggle of Sagamixes. Works rather well.
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No problem Nick!
One is pretty sure you will have plenty to say about the void in the last speech.
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Nick, remembering the '79 conference? That would put you at 16.
Did you bunk off school for that one?
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#8 has hit the nail on the head, politics today runs at the same level as business and the so called real world, only looking to make "motherhood and applepie" statements about anything and everything. It seems that anybody who thinks they are anybody just wants to hug the limelight telling people what they think they want to hear. A few years ago televoting shows were lauded as having more relevance than politics, as these are now tending to wane hopefully we can get back to political debate/arguament to make people understand the choices. Lets not blame the politicians for being boring, rather we should blame ourselves for not being prepared to debate with them and letting the media take over from us with petty whitchhunts and general rubbish.
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52#
Too right, FOM.
Maybe if the lobby was a bit more tenacious instead of acting as mouthpieces...
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#40, Mark_WE wrote:
"nautonier wrote:
Tory delegates outnumbered by BBC staff?
Shush!(?) Cuts are coming!"
I would expect that is an example of BBC overkill more than anything, isn't it true the the BBC took more staff to the Olympic games in China than the British Olympic team? Or is that just an Urban Legend?"
Mark,
I believe you are correct. And the BBC team to the Glastonbury Festival got up to 400...
I'm quite sure they were only the essential minimum for both events.
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Wow, I did a bit of a double-take there. Thankfully, then I noticed the comma after the word "goldfish".
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54#
Or a "spout"?
or even better, a discombobulation of Sagamixes
(discombobulate - confuse: be confusing or perplexing to; cause to be unable to think clearly; "These questions confuse even the experts"; "This question completely threw me"; "This question befuddled even the MP")
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My post at 42 still hasn't made it, must be bad
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#58 A giggle of Sagamixes?
Has a certain.....
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"Perhaps the spin doctors will begin to realise that spending hours shaping speeches that are delivered to empty halls and ignored by your own party workers, let alone large parts of the media, is not serving them well, let alone everyone else."
I hope you're right about that. Some of us have long realised that the great clamour for style over substance (pioneered by Blair, but now enthusiastically taken up by Cameron) was not a welcome development. But I've always assumed that that's just the small minority of us who actually take an interest in politics, and that the average voter is completely taken in by it all.
Time will tell.
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#60 Bit like Phil Hope remembering the foundation of the NHS.
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Er.... who invited Bono?? [thwack of open palm onto forehead]
What is it with this guy and political conferences?
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As the current round of party conferences arev the last before a General Election, I would have expected all three parties to have given us strong indications of what their manifestos might contain.
Only the Tories have done that to any useful extent, but still lacking detail.
Labour spent a lot of time telling us what others may or may not do, but not much about their own intentions.
The Lib/Dems err uhm, had a few days together.
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No drugs? what about the booze ' (I notice one could not get enough allegedly)and the sex? 'Friends Reunited' but I am sure that it was a dry chaste occasion, a "Gorden Brown" do.
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#47
You missed out the bit about Tories planning to flay old age pensioners alive, make children work down salt mines and that Cameron eats a new born baby for breakfast every morning.
Can't you just accept that the catalogue of disasters which the Labour party HAVE inflicted on the country is real and far more damaging than what the Tories might do according to the product of your feverish imagination?
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70 fubar_
Now I'm supposed to mention Ashcrofts and Murdochs astroturfers and grassroots campaigners who have been busy up till now on Have Your Say. Basically look out for anyone who writes in politicspeak. either conservative/labour/lib dem and also look out for the ones who follow the Kaufmanist ideology.
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A bunch of lightweights with no idea
The only message I heard was "The Labour Party" have shafted you and we are going to do pretty much the same.
No wonder the hall was empty
Life long Conservative voter (now looking for alternatives)
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#71
Fubar
They are a great chance to wear your hypocrisy on your sleeve.
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Interesting analysis on the BBC last night of the banking collapse. Apparently, the Conservatives didn't favour nationalising Northern Rock but put forward proposals that were similar (so as the BBC said, which was best will never be known as the Tory plans weren't followed). The BBC also said that Osborne suggested the re-financing of the banks 3 days BEFORE darling announced it. The biggest difference between them at the time was that Osborne was against the temporary lowering of VAT. Jury is still well and truly out on that last one exept that we know for a fact it cost the exchequer £12bn and we have no idea what difference it made to the economy.
I'll confess I hadn't been following events closely enogh at the time to take all that in but it does seem to blow out of the water Brown's accusations about the Tories doing nothing at the time.
Still, Gordon, as long as you say it often enough, you'll believe it yourself, even if no-one else does.
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An "exasperation" of Sagamixes?
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I remember (in my youth) attending Conservative Party conferences at the height of Margaret Thatcher's raise to fame. Personally I only went along for the late night parties!
Even in those days they were highly stage managed.
I remember sitting in a bar with a couple of friends and then being approached by a man from (a well known advertising company). He asked us if we would do something for the party. Of course we agreed. He then asked: "At the end of Margret Thatcher's speech to the conference would you run on with this banner (pre-prepared) and make some show in front of the cameras? Make it look 'spontaneous'. We agreed and performed our little demonstration in front of the cameras. We even made the 6 o'clock news"
So even 'spontaneous' demonstrations are stage managed!
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Nick refers to empty halls, which in my opinion stems from empty politics.
When the voters really come out in numbers and support a given political movement, then that provides a brief window of golden opportunity to make some truly radical changes.
For example, introducing a flat rate income tax system, which would greatly reduce the burden of administration on employers and Government alike, which in turn would encourage employers to use the part-time services of older people in their 'bonus' years.
That single idea links two key issues, the complexity of the (income) tax system and solving the pensions crisis.
However it would seem that none of our politicians in England have the courage to tackle this, so we muddle on in the most unsatisfactory way.
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Good speech - bring on the election NOW!
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76. At 3:06pm on 08 Oct 2009, GrumpyBob wrote:
A bunch of lightweights with no idea
The only message I heard was "The Labour Party" have shafted you and we are going to do pretty much the same.
No wonder the hall was empty
Life long Conservative voter (now looking for alternatives
----
Are you sure that you weren't mistakenly watching a rerun of the labour conference?
I couldn't agree with you less - Labour is sunk.
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#79 and various othere
An irritation of sagamixes?
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"EuroSider wrote:
....
He then asked: "At the end of Margret Thatcher's speech to the conference would you run on with this banner (pre-prepared) and make some show in front of the cameras? Make it look 'spontaneous'. We agreed and performed our little demonstration in front of the cameras. We even made the 6 o'clock news"
So even 'spontaneous' demonstrations are stage managed!"
That reminds me of a story I read about how a spin doctor was trying to show his party leader why he would require his services, the spin doctor carefully selected the crowd and prepared them with planted questions so that the leader would have an easy ride in front of the cameras.
After the event the leader turned to his spin doctor and said "Look how easily I handled the crowd, why would I need you?"
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Just watched Cameron.
Thinks of himself as MOSES !! (when he gets to the top of the mountain.)
Hope he doesn't drop his Tablets !
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I think Camerons use of the Fiona Pilkington case for political gain was disgusting. There's no evidence that the ModCons could have stopped it. or that they are better at Law and Order. Its just right wing fearmongering rhetoric designed to scare the lower classes into voting for the party that isn't really for them.
I don't think the ModCons are being honest they're spinning. New Labour to Modern Conservative.
In my view Osborne speech fed us a little bit of bad news and let them assume that that was it. in order to play the honesty card against Labour not out of any morally superior desire to be honest.
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Party conferences certainly aren't what they used to be, are they Nick?
After all, in the good old days the BBC didn't spend the licence-payers' money on meetings at the Labour Party conference in support of Bectu, the broadcast technicians’ union, and the National Union of Journalists (NUJ).
The BBC has previously admitted spending £1m on lobbying the government ahead of the 2007 licence fee settlement.
Still, it's easy when it's not your own money, isn't it?
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#72 Zydeco
Nope, I think you're wrong.... the Conservatives haven't given us a clue what their policies are going to be, they've merely thrown more ideas into the ring. As for getting an idea about what the party is about, well we know, it's about Murdoch and Ashcroft plus a few select others.
The City doesn't buy their 'story' and the IFS has demonstrated that they're way out on their numbers.
Conference gives you nothing, however, their actions up until now in Europe, foreign affairs (eg - when Dave rushed to Georgia to join arms with Mikhail, who started the whole thing by attacking peacekeepers and civilians with a late night artillery bombardment) and good old George's 'Britain is bankrupt' speeches (which the markets must have loved) show that they are far from government material - they're a liability.
And what about Dave saying how much he wants to work with President Obama yet at the same time 'loose canon' Hannan is on US tv working against him by interfering in his attempt to get universal healthcare passed??????
So, to sum up, they isolate themselves and potentially us in Europe, then using the same person isolate us from the current US administration - do you really think it wasn't noticed, that nauseating Fox News appearance? Their numbers are wrong and the first Quango they want to trash contributes four hundred million quid to the treasury.
Boris Johnson is an embarassment to London and it looks as though he's already backing out of his key election promises whilst interfering with and alienating the police.
Think I'd rather stick with what we've got and hope for electoral reform.
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Ah.... now the speech is over, here we go... somewhere in the next 10-15 posts
"evil, nasty party, champagne, toff, poshboy, IHT, millionaire mates in the city, snatching bread from the mouths of the starving, georgie boy, eton, oxford, bullingdon..." yadda, yadda, yadda........
Time to go home, methinks.
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A folly of sagamixes?
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the bbc is akin to politics. rubbish.
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83
sterling-donefor
Grumpy Bob expresses his dissatisfaction with the Tories and you immediately assume he is a Labour supporter. It's a good example of the rigid, unimaginative 'thinking' running through party politics.
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#83 sterling-donefor
Maybe Labour is sunk but if that's the case so are the Conservatives, it's just they happen to be in the right place at the right time.
Give them one term and based upon what I've seen and on Boris's performance in London it'll be curtains for them too. They haven't got a clue.
If they win, it won't be on the back of a voting majority - I bet you turnout will be below 40 per cent. They offer nothing, they're plastic politicians.
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looks like I'm not the only U on here who gets his posts bounced.
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#75 dhw
exactly what is Kaufmanism please? Anything to do with the saintly gerald and his lovely suits at all?
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71. Fubar_Saunders wrote:
Er.... who invited Bono?? [thwack of open palm onto forehead]
What is it with this guy and political conferences?
I believe he's also available for bar mitzvahs.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
OT just read this on guido, i think it is important that people are able to see the truth, something our government, and our mainstream media are failing to give us, time to take into our own hands, and help get the soldiers message out there.
Please either do the right thing ,or get out says:
October 8, 2009 at 3:47 pm
05 October 2009
In July, British soldiers and I boarded a CH-47 helicopter at Camp Bastion for the flight to FOB Jackson at Sangin where fighting is brutal. The helicopter was so stuffed with men, gear and supplies that the cargo was not even strapped down. We steadied the long stack with our hands and prayed that the pilots not begin flying violent evasive maneuvers. The tail gunner partially lifted the ramp to prevent bundles from tumbling into the skies, and that was it for securing the bundles. Just a week before, a giant MI-26 helicopter was shot down on final approach to this same landing zone. All aboard died in flames, as did two children on the ground.
This is, interestingly, the same landing zone where I would make the photos for “The Kopp-Etchells Effect” dispatch, which was published in many languages around the world. Many readers have weighed in with ideas about the causes of the glow. Some say the cause is St Elmo’s fire or the triboelectric effect, or perhaps the piezoelectric effect. The actual cause does not seem to be surely known, according to J. Gordon Leishman, D.Sc.(Eng.), Ph.D., F.R.Ae.S., Minta Martin Professor of Engineering, Department of Aerospace Engineering at the University of Maryland. I don’t know. Maybe it’s caused by angels. It definitely is beautiful.
We landed and British Soldiers from “2 Rifles” swarmed in to help unload cargo. Since I made this photo, at least two British CH-47s have been lost in combat operations, one of which was just north of here.
We need more gear and more forces now. We can outfight these enemies and we can win the war, but at this rate a favorable outcome is difficult to imagine. This war shows signs that it will become more intense than Iraq at its peak. As with my twelve dispatches from 2006 warning that we were losing this war, the warnings over the past couple of years seem to be falling on incredulous ears. We will lose the war unless we get more troops and more gear soon.
This weekend we lost eight more soldiers in a firefight. I learned about it while they were still fighting, but did not report it until just before the media broke the story the next day. Still unreported, to my knowledge, sources tell me that FOB Keating was destroyed and that troops were under siege for up to 24 hours before Air Force Para-rescue got them out. (Subject to confirmation.) The fighting will only intensify. We can beat these guys, but not under current conditions.
The last two missions I did with British 2 Rifles ended in firefights. Due to bandwidth difficulties, only a small part of the video was uploaded. Those two firefights were melded into one short video. These are just typical hum-drum day-in day-out missions, nothing like what happened this weekend in Nuristan.
from Michael Yon
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/two-firefights-one-video.htm
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#26 sagamix
very well said, sagamix.
P.S. your mystery 9 letter word may be 'socialism'.
Personally, I would prefer a ten letter word 'solidarity'.
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The speech was brilliant. We wrote it. If you don't understand that then you are missing something important.
I was profoundly moved and it was just the right speech for our new Prime Minister.
I am beginning to think those who say Nick Robinson is a labour supporter might be right after all. Poor thing.
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90. At 3:57pm on 08 Oct 2009, extremesense wrote:
#72 Zydeco
Nope, I think you're wrong.... the Conservatives haven't given us a clue what their policies are going to be.......
**********************8
I don't believe the Tories are perfect, in fact, if they get into Government they may prove to be as bad as what we've already got.
Yes. Cameron has thrown ideas into the ring, but they are ideas I can associate with. I reserve final judgement until the meat is put on the bone.
Why I want the election now is quite simply that I don't think the UK can take another 8 months of what Labour are doing.
Regarding loose 'cannon'. They can be tied down or jettisoned overboard. Hannan a minor irritation in the larger scheme of things.
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91. At 4:00pm on 08 Oct 2009, Fubar_Saunders wrote:
Ah.... now the speech is over, here we go... somewhere in the next 10-15 posts
"evil, nasty party, champagne, toff, poshboy, IHT, millionaire mates in the city, snatching bread from the mouths of the starving, georgie boy, eton, oxford, bullingdon..." yadda, yadda, yadda........
You didn't see MOSES coming! (87)
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88
Using an example that demonstrates the break down of law, order, and general acceptable behaviour? Disgraceful? Shorely shome mishtake.
You do realise that any of the terrible the things that happen in this country are the responsibility of government, to a greater or lesser extent. Of course they can not control people completely (although they try hard enough) but they are responsible for the performance of our police, and the measures available to them.
I know you would like us all to just hush up and not draw attention to the disgraceful state Labour have sunk us to, but it just ain't gonna happen.
Did you think it was disgraceful when Blair "used" the death of Jamie Bulger.
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#95 Extremesense Surely if your lot offered anything that would motivate the public to vote????? Think your premise is at fault.
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#101 discus2010
if its 10 letter words to be used then stupidity is much more apposite
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"extremesense wrote:
Think I'd rather stick with what we've got and hope for electoral reform."
You are expecting Labour to keep their promises? Have you been asleep for the last 12 years?
I am not really sure if the Tories will do all they promise to (and personally I doubt it), however I only have to look to Labour's record over the last 12 years to know that what they tell people they will do and what they actually do are two very different things.
Put it another way - if someone constantly lies to your face why would you believe anything they say?
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83 sterling-donefor
Im afraid I COULD have been listening to a rerun of the Labour Party
Nothing I have heard from this conference has changed my belief that NOTHING will change. Osborne will tinker round the edges, Dave will talk tough and reinvent the ASBO. The banks will still divide and conquer their customers with small print and lies. The Quango's will duck and dive and surprive AND prosper and more billions will be spent trying to reinvent the wheel and dismantle the total mess Labour have created.
And, for the record, No one could despise Brown and his useless coherts more than I and almost anyone would be better than our present encumbants in the Commons but I cannot see any difference Cameron and his boys will do resolve the decline of Great Britain.
Grumpy BoB, 40 years a Conservative voter.
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JohnConstable 81
I am a fan of flat tax as well and it is something I have been talking about for sometime. I am also looking for something new in politics, however, we have nothing at the moment. So for me it is anybody but Labour. It is interesting to note that Osborne is also a believer in flat tax and has some very radical ideas. Osborne was also right about how the banking bail out should have happened in my opinion, which was different from that of Darling. I will not write about that because I have said this many times. I believe if Osborne is allowed to run the economy without interference from his party I think he will do a very good job.
As to Camerons speech, it may not have played well to men but it certainly did to women. It at least gave a vision, something Brown has never had.
It was also nice to see a more presentable couple than Brown and his wife, who look jaded to say the least. Cameron did not use his wife as a prop to introduce him which shows he has much more confidence in his ability than Brown.
So all in all mainly because of Osborne of the 3 parties I believe the Conservatives are the best choice. If we vote otherwise, we will get Labour again and in all honesty I could not bear that.
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#106 Exiledscot
And which lot might that be?
Why I would I support political reform if I'm so interested in maintaining the status quo?
Try and be sensible, the Labour troll stuff becomes so tedious after a while - it's not an argument, it's a deflection.
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A quick request to the BBC.
You lot seem to be pretty much on the ball when it comes to technological advancements and stuff.
Can you please introduce a 'pre-determined response based on historical political persuasion' filter to these blogs?
It would make debate jolly much easier to engage in without the flag wavers filling up the pages with their myopic diatribe.. whatever their allegiance.
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This weeks tory conference was like watching a scene from Sean of the Dead with the narration from Silvestre Stallone. Cam Cam Cam and I,I,I,I,I,I and Cam Cam and I,I,I,I and my, my ,my and when it came to
the nitty gritty 'WE' are all in this together.
Laugh of the week, Cameron 'I want everybody to have the same opportunity as me.'
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#111 The post did not mention electoral reform. Sorry. I do hope you have more luck with that promise of a referendum than I had with the one on the Lisbon Treaty.
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#111. I was not arguing but stating that the one you were making did not stand up. Neither did I mention Labour you did.
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109. At 4:38pm on 08 Oct 2009, GrumpyBob wrote:
83 sterling-donefor
Im afraid I COULD have been listening to a rerun of the Labour Party
Nothing I have heard from this conference has changed my belief that NOTHING will change. Osborne will tinker round the edges, Dave will talk tough and reinvent the ASBO. The banks will still divide and conquer their customers with small print and lies. The Quango's will duck and dive and surprive AND prosper and more billions will be spent trying to reinvent the wheel and dismantle the total mess Labour have created.
And, for the record, No one could despise Brown and his useless coherts more than I and almost anyone would be better than our present encumbants in the Commons but I cannot see any difference Cameron and his boys will do resolve the decline of Great Britain.
Grumpy BoB, 40 years a Conservative voter.
-----
What did you want - some Daily Mail readers' hanging and flogging?
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#87 spinspamspun
Just watched Cameron.
Thinks of himself as MOSES !! (when he gets to the top of the mountain.)
Hope he doesn't drop his Tablets !
= = = = = = = = =
Hi Delboy
Think you’re a bit late on that one…. that was the Andrew Marr show.
By the way, talking about tablets, how are you going on? My advice is just keep doing what the Doctor says you should be okay! Although you may have to pencil in a date next year, May or June, to obtain some pain relief.
Pity about the demise of NuLabour, but look on the bright side they were well past their sell by date.
I heard the good news that Craigmillar has got some regeneration dosh so all in all things are not that gloomy. Chin up as they say.
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105 greathaymaker
Using an example that demonstrates the break down of law, order, and general acceptable behaviour? Disgraceful? Shorely shome mishtake.
The problem is that its just words designed to stir up self righteous anger. Like you say Jamie Bulger happened during the reign of the last Conservative government. Superior morality,family values and social cohesion wasn't around then because its all just words. again using this kind of thing to stir up anger for political prposes without any real idea of a solution just load of family value social cohesion rhetoric is disturbing and wrong.
I'm not trying to silence you I even repeated your impression of Mike Yarwood doing Tony Benn. Brilliant.
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94. At 4:05pm on 08 Oct 2009, Poprishchin wrote:
83
sterling-donefor
Grumpy Bob expresses his dissatisfaction with the Tories and you immediately assume he is a Labour supporter. It's a good example of the rigid, unimaginative 'thinking' running through party politics.
---
Yes - you are quite right - I jumped to an incorrect conclusion and I apologise.
However, I don't see how Bob could say that the hall was empty, and I really don't see what there was in Cameron's speech that anybody could disagree with. But, as you say, there is a lot of rigid, unimaginative 'thinking' running through party politics.
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Flat Tax, you guys must be bonkers....
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118. At 5:00pm on 08 Oct 2009, dhwilkinson wrote:
I'm not trying to silence you I even repeated your impression of Mike Yarwood doing Tony Benn. Brilliant.
---------
I think it is supposed to be W F Deedes, as seen in Private Eye (as any fule kno).
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118
We'll just have to agree to disagree on that then. I thought it was a valid point to raise, if it is one of his pledges to improve law and order and social cohesion he is well within his rights to use examples to demonstrate where improvement is needed.
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I beg to differ, No.65 et cetera, I say that you are approaching this from the wrong angle, hence the confusion.
First of all the plural of xes are ice, therefore the plural of Sagamixes are Sagamice? Not that it matters anyway, but as were are in a diversion it is worth a try. For me scrabbling amoung my index/indices it amused me.
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94. At 4:05pm on 08 Oct 2009, Poprishchin wrote:
83
sterling-donefor
Grumpy Bob expresses his dissatisfaction with the Tories and you immediately assume he is a Labour supporter. It's a good example of the rigid, unimaginative 'thinking' running through party politics.
===
Good point, well put. Could you now do another post to the effect of "just because somebody expresses their dissatisfaction with Labour does not automatically make them a Tory"? For the sake of balance.
Thank you.
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118 - Totally right, Never really like it when people start using specific real individuals to make their point it always suggests to me that their argument is not intellectually persuasive, and is designed to pull a reactionary response of 'yes your right, that is terrible, what was that something about Gordon Brown'. Also think the ‘my child’s dead’ routine is a bit low even for a careerist like Cameron.
But at least we will have IDS in charge of breaking society, might be okay after all.
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123#
Aha... Sagamouse.... now that I do like!
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#126 Fubar_Saunders
123#
Aha... Sagamouse.... now that I do like!
Sagamoose sounds better.
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sagamoose sagamoose can I do the fandango? ...
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124
yellowbelly
My point wasn't really about 'sides' but the apparent inability of 'politicals' to think about things in a clear nonpartisan way. However for the sake of balance and to make myself quite clear: The Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat and (Fill in name of any national political party) Parties are a bunch of venal, self-serving hypocrites swilling around in a corrupted system, pandering to vested interests and their own stomachs. Criticism of any one of them does not mean the support of any other because the system they operate in is not a democracy not matter how much they want us to believe it is.
Is that ok?
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Susan-Croft @ 110
I am keen on a flat-rate income tax system mainly because of its simplicity.
The devil is often in the detail but providing the minimum level at which the tax is applied is set at the (floating) official level of 'poverty', which I believe is currently around £16K pa, i.e. nobody earning less than that would pay a penny in income tax, then that would be a start.
Some people seem to think that that is somehow 'radical', well, maybe it is in the context of our sterile politics (which so bores our political hacks) but I could think of measures that are far more radical than that.
For example, give every working person the choice of whether they want to join an enterprise as a) an employee b) a freelancer c) some hybrid of a and b, e.g. as a partner.
Which is light-years away from the current conventional working environment of 'bosses' and 'workers'.
However, politicians appear to find it unsettling if the people are given too much choice and seem to much prefer the majority of working people to be PAYE drones, for the fairly obvious reasons that if given some freedom as to how they arrange their working lives, they might actually start being independent in their thinking and become politically volatile.
Far better for the politicians to just have a tiny percentage of floating voters spread across a handful of marginal constituencies, but it cannnot really be called a democracy.
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the tories beleive that they can change uk policies in their 100 days in the office but what policies do they have or had , they can only tell the public how they going to change britain , how the labour have taken the uk economic into a rabbit hole , come on tories they only think they have is political model and pretty face politician telling public what labour have done . did they tell the public what pretty face bankers have done to the economic
come on tories we know the next election is closer so don't give the public gimmick speech .
say it cameron , oh i forgot cameron how could your chancellor don't know how to read ?????
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how long do we have to listen to politician with their opportune speech
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