Changing Britain's relationship with Europe
Over dinner for two in Paris last night Angela and Nicolas plotted the future of the new Europe, chatting about whether Tony could be their candidate for president. Threatening to give them both political indigestion though was another Brit - David - the man who ought to be their natural political ally.
The chancellor of Germany and the president of France are infuriated by the behaviour of the man who their diplomats tell them looks set to be Britain's next prime minister.
Neither Angela Merkel nor Nicola Sarkozy have met David Cameron for more than a year. Both tried and failed to persuade him to change his European policy. It is, though, about to change thanks not to them, but to events.
The Tories promise of a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty will die with their hopes that the Czechs might halt the progress of the treaty into law.
The new Conservative approach to Europe will not be to the liking of those Eurosceptics who believe that only a full-blooded battle with the EU will deliver change.
David Cameron spoke this week of a policy based on "realism not isolationism". His allies shudder at the memory of John Major's beef war with Europe. They remember it producing not victory, but messy face-saving compromises.
Their aim, one shadow cabinet minister tells me, is to avoid idle threats "to bring the whole temple crashing down". Instead, the Tories are working on a list of changes they want to see and a list of changes others want which they can block if a Cameron government doesn't get its way.
Those who are demanding a referendum to strengthen the government's hand or to ensure that they do not "sell out" to Europe look set to be disappointed too.
David Cameron's "cast-iron guarantee" to Sun readers of a Euro referendum expires, I'm told, once there is no further chance of stopping the Lisbon Treaty. In its place comes a different cast-iron guarantee of a new law to force any future government to put any future EU treaty to a popular vote.
Cameron's aides have noted with relief that both the Sun and the equally Eurosceptic Telegraph seem to have joined what they regard as the realists' camp.
Senior Tories know that if they are to have any chance of changing Britain's relationship with the EU, David will need to be able to sit down with Angela and Nicolas. They believe that success will come not through confrontation but patient, tough-minded negotiation.
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You do have to feel a bit sorry for Dave. He doesn't know which way to turn. Some in his party, like Ken Clarke, are committed Europhiles, whereas a significant proportion of his grass roots support are rabidly anti-Europe and are quite likely to desert the Tories for UKIP if he does anything that looks even remotely pro-European.
If he actually does anything that looks like being at all decisive, he's going to upset an awful lot of his party.
BTW, Nick, don't know if you heard a news story this week about something called the Kelly report? Might make an interesting blog if you get the chance to find out what that's all about.
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Sometimes, Nick, I wish you'd focus more on the complicity of certain government ministers in getting us into this disgraceful situation in the first place. I'm all for Cameron being realistic and I'm all for him fighting our corner, but to me the point is that we shouldn't be in this position to start with, because we should have had the referendum we were promised under Labour during this term. With the referendum we could also have finally had the open debate about whether this would be a good thing or not, instead I think you'll find that most people's opposition to the treaty is based upon the fact that it's been thrust upon us in a dishonest and underhand manner, which makes us suspicious of it.
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There is another way - if we go against EU ruling in some way then they will throw us out!
Public education, enlightenment and opinion are now needed.
The public have been stirred up by the expenses scandal. Joe the plumber (!!) in the street is now taking an interest in politics. His interest may of course be sceptical but it needs to be sustained.
Now is the time to engage the public, find out what it really thinks if there is not to be a repeat of the BNP support type but for a party which wants to shake us out of Europe.
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Sarkozy and Merkel are conservatives in terms of domestic policy and federalists in terms of European Policy. Cameron and the Conservative Party, on the other hand, are domestic conservatives but sceptics of federalism. Therefore, however much they might agree on broad domestic policy issues, it is quite irrational that they should sit alongside each other in a political grouping whose prime purpose is European policy. Hence, they don't - it's as simple as that.
Nick writes:
"Senior Tories know that if they are to have any chance of changing Britain's relationship with the EU, David will need to be able to sit down with Angela and Nicolas. They believe that success will come not through confrontation but patient, tough-minded negotiation."
That is undoubtedly true. But I don't see how you can be "tough" in negotiations without having some degree of strength behind you. In diplomatic terms, "confrontation" is a strong word, but to be successful in "tough" negotiations, you have to have a position that you can credibly adopt if you don't get what you want, a position that is to your potential advantage and to the disadvantage of the people you are negotiating with, and a genuine willingness to adopt that position. That is how "tough negotiations" work.
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"The Tories promise of a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty will die with their hopes that the Czechs might halt the progress of the treaty into law."
what a relief for Cameron and the Tory leadership!
it's excellent news, both for me and the country, that a Conservative government is going to adopt a sensible approach to Europe - we're an integral part of both the continent and the project; let's keep it that way
an interesting point here, though
you know how people often criticise Labour for abandoning its "core vote" in pursuit of the centre ground? ... a criticism I share to some extent, as it happens ... well we have exactly the same here (don't we?) with the Cs
while the leadership rest a whole lot easier in their beds because they can forget about the pesky referendum, so the party Rank and File (and the majority of their committed supporters) get ever more angry about the fact there won't be one - add to that a Eurorealist policy when the R'n'F are almost all Europhobes and you can see what we've got, can't you?
total disconnect
will be moderately fascinating to see how it all plays out
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An opinion piece...where's the news?
"Threatening to give them both political indigestion though was another Brit - David - the man who ought to be their natural political ally."
Fluff...he's a different nationality, so although they may be politically similar those politics have different effects and even sometimes different meanings in different countries, I thought you may have been aware of that.
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He's between a rock and a hard place thats for sure. And I think he has the abyss of doom underneath him, if he says the wrong thing on europe then a sizable portion of his voters will go to UKIP or even possibly the BNP.
I don't pity his position.
That being said I think his appeasement of making it law to hold any future laws on a popular vote is a good idea, and one that makes a lot of sense. As long as their aren't any loopholes in it that can be easily exploited "in the nations interest" then he will have gone a long way towards pleasing some of the sceptics.
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It appears David Cameron has learned something from the comments made by David Milliband earlier this week regarding isolationism. What happened to 'we will not let it rest' if the Treaty is ratified? If he is adamant about not rejoining the EPP, how can he make his voice heard from the fringes. 26 countries are moving forward together in Europe, it will only be the UK which is out of step if Cameron wins the election. From his defence of his new partners on the far right at PMQs yesterday, he does not seem ready to disavow them and move back into the mainstream. He sold his soul to gain the leadership of his party and now he will have to pay the piper who in this case seems to be William Hague.
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Listened to you package on the "Today" programme and the follow-up interview with Hague, the Tories are still waffling about the EU and what the UK's position is going to be should Cameron be the next PM, it will be the Tories and Cameron's undoing.
Nothing of substance is going to change between the Czechs ratifying Lisbon and the UK's next election, thus there is nothing to stop Cameron and Co. telling the electorate what their policies would be, the ONLY reason they won't is because they can't, because they don't know, and they don't know because they can't be sure hos the eurosceptic press will play the issue and the last thing that Cameron and Co. want to do before the election is annoy the eurosceptic press and thus loose their support - and to think that Cameron is accusing Brown of "Dithering"!
The electorate might or might not be eurosceptic but they also know dither and waffle when they hear it, only two parties are going to benefit from Cameron's own dithering and neither is Tory, UKIP must love Cameron and his dithering whilst Labour is fast approaching an open Tory goal.
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I don't see the point of labouring why we are in this position(intended pun).
Any negotiation needs to provide a perceived win for all parties so building up a dossier of the requirements of both sides is a good idea. Once you have this you can decide on the "value" of each and then make decisions as to where to compromise.
If you then win the election and the Czech's have already ratified the treaty you are in position to begin.
I can't see a more pragmatic approach.
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Nick - this is a truly excellent piece of journalism if I may say so. I have maintained for a long time that David Cameron unlike many in the Tory Party does not have a visceal hatred of the EU and all its works but is a strong believer that our best interests lie in remaining in the EU. At the same time he is a strong believer in the Nation State and will not go down the federal route. I remember Ken Clarke saying only a few months ago that David Cameron is a mild eurosceptic and of a very sensible sort!
It is clear that elationships and bridges will have to be mended and bult with Merkel and Sarkozy - but never forget that if Cameron becomes PM then they will need him just as much as he needs them.Realpolitik will take over.
I know the Cameron line will infuriate the Better Off Out Group - who whilst I disagee with them at the same time I do respect them - but as a One Nation Tory your news this morning is the most cheering I have heard for a long time on Europe .I also believe it represents where the vast majority of people in this Country are on Europe.
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Whether you are for the EU or against you must wonder what has happened to democracy within this body called the EU. The Czechs still have not come to a conclusion and yet everyone is acting as though they have.
Furthermore the majority of the British public is not committed to this Federal project, therefore is it right that it should be forced on them in this manner. A vote was promised in the Labour manifesto, should they not now be made to meet this commitment. I am not at all concerned how the rest of the EU see Cameron he is merely reflecting the views of the people of this Country.
This brings me to why Blair is totally unsuitable for the role of President, other than his other obvious failings, which make him quite wrong for this position. Britain on the whole is a eurosceptic Country and most probably after the election the Conservatives will be a eurosceptic Government, not wanting to integrate further, with regard to the single currency etc. Therefore it will be totally unsuitable for Blair as an ex Prime Minister of Britain to be both comfortable and of use in this role.
Blair may very well see himself travelling around like the Pope, but his worth in this role will be very limited, both by his failed past and the lack of potential good he can bring to this position.
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Saga..whilst I applaud your valiant attempts to bring chaos to the Tories over Europe...doesn't it make perfect sense for Cameron to hope that the Czechs scupper Lisbon for him?
So,if this happens,how can "the party Rank and File (and the majority of their committed supporters) get ever more angry about the fact there won't be one" (a referendum)?
If I understand correctly,Lisbon has to be ratified by all Member States,so a Czech rejection would kill it.
A referendum is thus a pointless exercise.
Or have I missed something?
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Agree with 2. The Government has been disingenuous about the Lisbon Treaty and the Conservatives are having to be pragmatic. Since honesty comes at a premium with the Mandleson Government I suspect that the Conservatives won't have too much trouble carrying the broad mass of the British public with them. Europe needs Britian, Britain needs Europe.
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Politically speaking, the British relationship with Europe is almost over.
In a couple of years time, Cameron may find himself Prime Minister of England only.
We English should expect our politicians to prepare for the eventuality that England becomes reborn as a political entity in its own right.
So the Conseratives really should not be issuing idiotic statements like 'electing Blair as President of the EU would be seen as a hostile act".
Given the Conservative Party's current stance on the EU, it is highly unlikely that any English Europeans will be giving them their vote in the coming General Election.
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That's it then. We will do as we're told. Europe is supreme. Voters don't count. Opposition to the EU is verboten. How dare we think that the EU is anything but Manna from Heaven. The UK Government - indeed all European Governments -will now be slowly but inexorably made inferior to the extent that they will no longer be needed.
Ah well, that's got that off my chest.
BTW - What odds that the Blairs will be asking for the Palace of Versailles to be made available for their use?
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'David Cameron's "cast-iron guarantee" to Sun readers of a Euro referendum expires, I'm told, once there is no further chance of stopping the Lisbon Treaty. In its place comes a different cast-iron guarantee of a new law to force any future government to put any future EU treaty to a popular vote.'
Of course this is less than truthful, as everyone knows this treaty means there will never need be another treaty. This is the conceit that David's posturing relies on. What he is now discovering is that his knee jerk Euro scepticism is totally unrealistic. He and his people know that although they have been making political capital out of seeming anti european, if he does get into power he needs to work with Europe. He has created his own hell, he is in an alliance with people he would not want to spend the time of day with. This alliance means that his would be partners are not predisposed to him - and therefore his comments on putting Blair in, in fact make it all the more likely.
So even if he gets in with a small majority he will have his hands tied behind his back by his extreme elements, a massive deficit which if he cuts he will make worse / reinforce the nasty party tag. And any attempts to play the statesman tag will be overshaddowed by - Tony.
Oh the irony of wee billies curtain twitching speech -which they all fell about- now we all know it will be Dave saying look look I am a real grown up politician now, as Mr Charisma sweeps in. oh the Khama of it.
It does make you think what did he do in a previous life? and be careful what you wish for.
Finally the real reason News International want to back the Tories because Jeremy 'Ben Swain" Hunt is making noises that he will destroy the BBC.
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Cameron is in a difficult place. Tough. That's what leaders have to deal with.
A referendum, after the Treaty has come into effect, would not mean anything - except probably display the levl of unhappiness that the deal had been done without involving the electorates across Europe. (OK, Ireland had to vote - it was constitutional demanded of them.)
I still read the Lisbon Treaty as meaning that future changes can be passed by the modified executive and legislative structure with little need to create new Treaties. So legislating to insist on a referendum next time round seems futile.
Cameron made a mistake, in my opinion, by messing about with the "alignment" of Tory MEPs within the Brussels groupings. There are some pretty dodgy characters and parties in several of the groupings. But splinters rarely last long.
(Remember the SDP? Merged and effectively absorbed into the Liberal bunch. It's probably true that they forced the Labour party to rethink how government could work better - or at least differently. Pity that we received a New Labour party with some interesting approaches, but absolutely, criminally, bad delivery.)
Talking about criminally bad delivery, I guess that provides a link to the Nimrod catastrophe.
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I think Cameron is in an intolerable position, placed there by NuLabour sicophants and greedy ministers salivating at the prospect of increased position in a federalised Europe.
The gravy train has just taken on new carriages and is heading to brussels with the NuLabour in the comfortable seats.
This whole episode is nothing but glory for the politicians at the expense of the british public. They spent years lining their pockets at our expense, now they can get a whole new suit with European expense income.
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Once Tony Blair is foist on us Britain will no longer be a democracy.
We in the UK will rank alongside countries like Libya, jealously eyeing the free democratic peoples of the world in the US, Australia, India and elsewhere........
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sagamix 5
It's interesting that you choose to portray the Conservative rank-and-file as Europhobic. Clearly there isn't a lot of hard evidence either way (about the best is probably the occasional polling over at ConHome), but probably a fairer and more accurate description of them is federalism-phobic. I think the huge majority of Conservatives see the EU as a tarriff-free market place, and view with considerable horror the political aspects of the project - the generation of a European superstate. Contrary to how you express yourself, therefore, I tend to see the Conservative rank-and-file and the Conservative leadership as quite well aligned at the moment. Of course, I understand why you would wish it to be different - and why you would maintain the hope that broadly Conservative voters would suddenly switch en masse to UKIP, but you have to accept, maybe now, maybe later, that what you wish for and what is actually going to happen aren't the same.
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It's not in the bag to assume the constitutional court will vote in favour of Lisbon yet though. I know the press likes to think it is and Labour seem to be of that opinion but it isn't. It is unconstitutional to sign it until the EU actually provides fully signed off audited accounts in my opinion because who knows where we are.
President Blair gives me indigestion too though so I'm not surprised Sarkozy and Merkel were a little uncomfortable.
Nick - if you could blog about us being a net contributor to the EU now and the fact that other countries above us in GDP are net takers then that would probably help us realise how unfair this is all for Britain!
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Its a done deal anyway apparently, and Cameron will be fortunate if the Czechs ratify the agreement. I hope the Czechs get as much as they can out of the EU for their brinkmanship.
Done deal? Well the BBC seems to think so as they reported yesterday on Radio 4 that a "European Union Warship" had sighted the pirated yacht in the Indian Ocean.
European Union Warship??
Being slowly dragged into the inevitable whilst sleeping. Bliss.
We are pregnant, we should accept that and make the best of it, we are way past the termination point.
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Zydeco @ 17
You ask what are the odds that the Blairs will be asking for the Palace of Versailles to be made available for their use?
I doubt very much that EU President Blair would dream of making such a request as I believe that he personally is not that interested in money per se, given his rather posh upbringing.
But Empress Cherie, still haunted by a poverty-stricken childhood in Liverpool, may well demand at least the Palace of Versailles as a minimum requirement - with hordes of flunkeys attending to every whim.
In my minds eye, I can see it now as Empress Cherie decends from Blair Force One at Charles De Gaulle and is swept off in a huge motorcade to her Palace at Versailles.
That is literally a planet away from some of Liverpool's grimmer outposts and the 'Croccy Crew'.
They say it is better to travel than arrive, but Empress Cherie may beg to differ.
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Can anyone remember such an incompetent bunch of people who keep say one thing to get the cheap support and do another or are forced to do another because they simply didn't think before they spoke?
Blair was nothing like this, neither was Thatcher.
The worrying thing is that their 'pet' newspapers are supporting the incompetence.
How can anyone consider voting for this bunch of clowns (yep, 'fraid so, Sagamix is spot on).
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This sounds like a sensible development, and one becoming a party that looks set to be governing in months. Can we expect them to switch back into the centre-right block where they belong?
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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#9 valdan 70 wrote: "If he is adamant about not rejoining the EPP, how can he make his voice heard from the fringes."
Conservative MEPs are now the largest component in the 4th largest grouping in the European Parliament. They have also been elected to more key positions than before - to give just two examples, Conservative MEPs now chair the Internal Market Committee and the Agriculture Committee of the EP. Hardly "on the fringes" then.
However, the whole "fringe" argument not only fails when tested against the facts, it is also based on a false premise - the premise that the UK has somehow benefited from being able to exert influence as a result of Brown, Blair, Major and Heath cosying up to other European leaders and making concession after concession on matters affecting our national interest. We have given up the budget rebate, dropped our opt-outs on the Social Chapter and Working Time Directive etc and for what?
I'd be very interested if anyone can give a single example of the Labour government's "influence" in Europe paying off.
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14
What do you mean
Saga..whilst I applaud your valiant attempts to bring chaos to the Tories over Europe...doesn't it make perfect sense for Cameron to hope that the Czechs scupper Lisbon for him?......
David Cameron is in a mess of his own making, he has hooked up with people who praise the SS and has said his policy will be decided by the Czech republic.
Leadership would be if he said I do not agree with this treaty - in fact so much do I not agree that should I be elected I will give the electorate the opportunity to get out of Europe. That would be a principled position.
The reason he does not do that is that he does not believe it. His own political opportunism which was to placate his own secptics and to garner support from potential UKIP voters has back fired. He has made a lot out of Browns vacillation (quite rightly) - but he is showing the same kind of leadership.
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its a well known fact that both france anerson is electedd germany have wanted the british isles under their boot for years and with both having failed militarily they seem to be using the softly softly method of political control.
how dare they expect to change british leaders minds even before the person is even elected, he may fail and they will have wasted their time.
the voters of this country should know whom they are voting for and what their plans are when the subject is such a large one.
we dont need a government that says one thing then does another.
as far as europe is concerned their leaders should concentrait on their own countries and leave this one alone.
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Oh dear Nick. In a week when the Government is caught, again, with its pants down, including a U turn on TA training, further MOD disgrace due to cost cutting which cost lives when Gordon was Chancellor and the plan to allow mass immigration, what do you blog on? Ah its deja vu all over again - the EU and the Tories!
And dear old Chris Bryant says the Tories are anti-British for not wanting a Brit as the EU President. What he cannot see, just like Gordon and his yes-person accolytes, is that we all would like a Brit as EU President if we have to have one at all, just as long as it is not that congenital liar Tony Blair. This government really does have to visit Spec Savers more often.
Labour, support them or not, broke their democratic mandate by not having the promised referendum because they thought the yes vote would lose and they had no plan B. Again short sighted because as we all know the EU plan B is always a few meaningless sops and continuing referenda until we vote yes.
It is not the Tories fault that we are signed up to the communist block called the EU - communistic because there is no democracy involved for the peoples of Europe.
The Europhiles are still blindly enthralled in the European dream and the rest of us are stuffed!
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13. At 10:17am on 29 Oct 2009, Susan-Croft wrote:
Whether you are for the EU or against you must wonder what has happened to democracy within this body called the EU. The Czechs still have not come to a conclusion and yet everyone is acting as though they have
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Agree with what you say Susan, but if the Czechs were to refuse to sign the Treaty for any reason - hardly likely I know - they will eventually be forced to by pressure from the EU.
As with Ireland, only the RIGHT answer is allowed.
YOU HAVE THE DEMOCRATIC RIGHT TO MAKE THE DECISION WE TELL YOU TO MAKE!
As someone else has already remarked, in future there will be no treaties that will need a vote. Lisbon allows any legislation, however drastic its effects might be, to be passed by majority voting.
Dalek democracy becomes the norm:" Resistance is futile. Resistance is futile"
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#13, Susan-Croft wrote:
"Whether you are for the EU or against you must wonder what has happened to democracy within this body called the EU. The Czechs still have not come to a conclusion and yet everyone is acting as though they have.
...Furthermore the majority of the British public is not committed to this Federal project, therefore is it right that it should be forced on them in this manner."
Susan C,
The problem is that nobody knows whether the majority of people across the EU states are committed to this "Federal project", because there have been minimal opportinities for electorates to get involved.
If memory serves, the French rejected The Constitutional Treaty (virtually the same as Lisbon), because they feared it was too open-market orientated. The Dutch because they worried about being subsumed and there were some "leftish" bits in there. The Germans were never allowed a direct vote, as referenda are apparently not permitted by their constitution. The Italians would probably say "Let anyone be in charge except the shower of politicians who've run us for decades" - even though their GDP has forged ahead of the UK again...
What irritates me is that Treaty is designed by politicians for a political class.
The "President" of the Council will be a sort of UN Sec Gen - lite. Approved by the EU heads of government, but not permitted to take an independent line. How could he/she?
A mouthpiece for the consensual view of 27 countries.
So can't be a lead negotiator on behalf of the EU, because there is no people power to support it.
The UN Sec Gen quite often simply says what he feels, because he/she is only there by agreement that his role is important, but influential, not executive. He/she couldn't decide to go to war.
PROTUS, on the other hand, has a direct mandate. So he can decide to do things that have to be wangled or wheedled through the Senate and House.
So the President (Chairman) of the EU Council would be unable to deliver anything. So what's the point of a "big-hitter"? What you need is a good bag-carrier. Not a flim-flam artist.
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grief @ 14
"If I understand correctly, Lisbon has to be ratified by all Member States, so a Czech rejection would kill it."
correct; but they're going to pass it
"A referendum is thus a pointless exercise."
if the Czech's reject it; but they won't, so a UK referendum would be anything but pointless ... it would give the British people (frightening thought, I know!) the ability to say "No" to the treaty and, de facto, "No" to Europe
"So, if this happens, how can "the party Rank and File (and the majority of their committed supporters) get ever more angry about the fact there won't be one" (a referendum)?"
because it's always more irksome when your own mother won't give you a sweetie, rather than somebody else's mother
"Or have I missed something?"
not really; only all of the above!
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If Blair and Brown suceed in turning the EU into a Dictatorship because of their own dictatorial style of leadership!
New Labour will not be parading their rockets through every EU capital like the Chineses and North Koreans.
But a leader from Germany and or a leader from an ols Soviet Union country or even Putin might!
To achieve even a sham democracy in the ever expanding non elected EU monopoly would indeed require a States person with the integrity and ability of David Cameron.
Not the dross of the ex CND "ban the bommbers", communists, Trotskietes or petty marxists or fellow travellers that always have infested the top of sham Demorcracy of New Labour Governments
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30 extremesense
The fact is, the Conservatives have a policy that is fully aligned with the facts as they currently are. That is a sensible position for them.
If the facts change, then the Conservatives will have to adapt their position to match. Equally, a sensible position for them to adopt.
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Why do extreme euro-sceptics seem to see Europe as a single entity which gangs up on us poor British? The fact is we are one of the most powerful voices in the EU - we help shape policy. We have one of the biggest votes and are seen by many countries in the east as a powerful counter-balance to the likes of France and Germany. It is the continued whinging of UKIP and the like that weaken us in Europe. It is nearly 40 years since we joined and it is about time we got used to it, rather than having our national interests ruined by nutters telling silly stories about banning bent bananas and prawn flavoured crisps.
If we want the best out of Europe we should get more involved, not less - that way we can change things. In the words (sort of) of Lyndon Johnson - it is better to to inside the tent peeing out than outside the tent peeing in.
I am not an avid pro-european, but I see the benefit of our involvement in a sensible way. If the Tories now see this - good.
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Having done a bit of research of Camerons new 'chums' in the european parliament, i'm more worried about them lobbying for the wearing of pink triangles by homosexuals in the euro zone and the 'monitoring' of the Roma people.
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JR @ 23
"I think the huge majority of Conservatives see the EU as a tarriff-free market place, and view with considerable horror the political aspects of the project."
yes not a bad definition of a Europhobe; I'm reasonably happy with that - and you're right, a large number of Tories fit nicely in that box - leaves a fair few, however ... just a handful of millions, maybe ... who are a little more extreme, who would like us to break right away and plough a brave and lonely furrow as a kind of European version of Madagascar
if we're going to define "Europhobe" the way you have (and as I say, I quite like it) then we need to mint a new description for these slightly more outre characters - hate leaving loose ends so I gave it a few minutes intense concentration and I came up with six possibles, all of them pretty good; given we only need the one, however, let's just go with the best and most suitable ...
Euroclowns
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Of course, the Conservative opposition to the EU has never been more than rhetoric, aimed at keeping the little-Englanders onside. Remember, nobody did more than Thatcher to further our integration with Europe. No government, left or right, is actually prepared to damage the UK economy by alienating our European trading partners because they know that economic success breeds political success. The rest is hot air.
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#21
totally agree; very good post. Easy to see the newlabour apologists all now heading off to Brussels with their tails between their legs now they know they are going down to a crushing defeat at the general election next year.
Lots of grandstanding about 'statesmanship' and 'leadership qualities' coming from the bleating newlabour apologists but all that really means is 'unelectable in any other forum than Europe' and they know it.
They've all watched from afar with admiration the Kinnock gravy train rolling along picking up gongs and directorships like common colds and now they realise they haven't got a prayer's chance in the general election they've diverted their attention to that last bastion of unconstitutional fudging; the European Union. Lots of shoulder to shoulder moments standing for photo calls on the steps outside building jostling for position with people whose name you can't remember and of no consequence to the British people whatsoever. Even poor little David Miliband has had to accept the inevitable; that he will probably be leading a defeated newlabour party this time next year and his best chance of sticking his head up on the TV news will be to say he's been on the phone with his matres in Brussels and the tory government needs to listen to him; yeah, right.
It's all a bit tragic really. This will be the last labour administration ever; the writing is on the wall. They've betrayed the middle classes they tried so desperately to court; they've betrayed their core supporters who are now voting BNP and they've performed according to labour type leaving the economy in a disasterous state. They have no-one to rely on but a few delusional proto-altruistic types cliaming to be forward thinkers and in denial about the havoc their twelve years of despotic rule have wreaked on the UK. They had such lofty dreams and it all came to nought and they know it and even admit it to each other in their more lucid, later evening moments. I've been there when the newlabour luvvies pour their hearts out over dinner about their disappointments about Iraq, Blair, education, patronage, lack of reform, the shambolic performances of Brown, the sclerotic state of the party. My heart bleeds for them. But not really.
Now call an election.
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extremesense 30
I do not usually respond to posts which use the words clown. Because it makes no point and just has the effect of making the reader consider what sort of voter is out there.
However because Cameron is representing the people of this Country by being a a eurosceptic are you suggesting that the majority of people in this Country are clowns. The last time I looked the people of this Country wanted a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and a no vote would be the most likely outcome, they were promised this by the Labour Government.
Therefore it is Labour who should have thought before they acted by promising something they had no intention of delivering. The Conservatives are merely trying to make some sense of the mess Labour have made of this.
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balancedthought 33
(Really, I wonder sometimes if I should refer your user name to Trading Standards!)
"Leadership would be if he said I do not agree with this treaty - in fact so much do I not agree that should I be elected I will give the electorate the opportunity to get out of Europe. That would be a principled position."
You are right, what you wrote is a principled position. But it isn't the only principled position available. You try to imply that it is, and you are wrong.
A perfectly reasonable and principled view is that it is broadly to our advantage to be part of a European Common Market, but that the federalism at the core of the Lisbon Treaty is not to our advantage and therefore we want to repatriate the powers that Lisbon takes away from us. We are able to negotiate that position from strength - as nett payers for the EU and nett providers of a market for the EU. If you find something lacking in that position - do tell!
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Quote: In its place comes a different cast-iron guarantee of a new law to force any future government to put any future EU treaty to a popular vote.
Sigh! Here we go again.
Just for clarity: there...won't...be...another...EU...Treaty.
The reason? The ratchet clause in the Lisbon Treaty (Article 48/7), which makes it self-amending. This negates the need for any further treaties - therefore it's a worthless Tory promise.
Quote: [Tory EU policy] is, though, about to change thanks not to them, but to events.
This comment by Nick is more prophetic than he probably realises and not in the way he means. The Tory's policy will eventually change due to events, when inevitably the undemocratic EU grabs more and more power via Lisbon, and the people begin to either express their displeasure in large numbers via the ballot box (i.e better off out) or on the streets.
An undemocratic and unaccountable (EU) government cannot ignore its citizens forever.
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How ironic. Here is a man who every Wednesday (PMQs) accuses the PM of being indecisive, inconsistent and even dishonest. What about his, "we will not rest it there"and "Cast iron guarantee" to The Sun readers. Europe is one of many episodes of his poor (or lack of ) judgement-Remember "hug a hoodie", "No punch and judy politics", and the most glaring one,on the credit crunch-following Northern Rock-"this is solely a British problem created by Brown as PM and Chancellor". Trying telling that to the Icelanders, Irish, East Europeans, Spainiards and host of other victims of this global recession.
I shudder at the thought that this country is sleep walking into handing power to a bunch of totally inexperienced guys who only seem to be in love with themselves.
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We English are in a very weak position to complain about the yawning democratic deficit in the EU because we have ourselves persisted for hundreds of years with a very hierarchical top-down political system e.g. we do not even directly elect the Prime Minister.
Whereas, for example, the Americans, at their political birth, more-or-less completed inverted the process i.e. introduced a bottom-up democracy, that has been very successful by most measures.
It is just possible that at some distant point in the future, Europeans will vote to directly elect the President of the European Union but right now, that seems a very long way off indeed.
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sagamix 38
In your desperate effort to try to paint a picture of the Conservative position to the best advantage of your own views, you have become a little confused. On purpose, one suspects.
Saying "no" to the Lisbon treaty is not the same as saying "no" to our membership of a European Common Market.
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29. At 10:54am on 29 Oct 2009, JohnConstable wrote:
Zydeco @ 17
You ask what are the odds that the Blairs will be asking for the Palace of Versailles to be made available for their use?
......But Empress Cherie, still haunted by a poverty-stricken childhood in Liverpool, may well demand at least the Palace of Versailles as a minimum requirement - with hordes of flunkeys attending to every whim.
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Scary thought ain't it!. Still I understand she did a good job as the flying scenes consultant in the Harry Potter movies ;-).
Back on topic. Why oh why , if the EU is so good, so absulutely amazingly
good, are so many of us ordinary people of the European Nations so cynical about it?
Why aren't we shouting from the rooftops about how wonderful it all is?
How come someone isn't making a blockbuster musical singing its praises?
Why isn't everyone demanding that their National flags be hauled down in favour of the EU dishcloth?
Why am I bothering to waste bandwidth on the topic anyway? Its a preordained future from now on. The deed is done. We will soon be sinking in a sea of Europeanism. Franglais will become the 'de-rigeur' language. Leder hosen will be compulsory on ceremonial occasions.
God! I need a bacon sandwich and a quiet corner somewhere.
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36. At 11:09am on 29 Oct 2009, Zydeco wrote:
"13. At 10:17am on 29 Oct 2009, Susan-Croft wrote:
Whether you are for the EU or against you must wonder what has happened to democracy within this body called the EU. The Czechs still have not come to a conclusion and yet everyone is acting as though they have
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Agree with what you say Susan,..//.."
Both of you seem to be over looking the fact that the Czechs, democratic, parliament has come to a conclusion and ratified the Lisbon Treaty, it's only the (now) undemocratic president who is trying to filibuster (egged on, of the reports are to be believed, by Cameron and Co.), over stepping his constitutional powers, he will be lucky if he doesn't end up being impeached or worse.
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Saga why beat up Cameron about a referendum....Didnt your beloved Labour party promise on and then said no we know best?
How do you square that circle?
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David Cameron did a deal with the europhobe wing of the Tory party in order to get their support for his bid for the leadership. He has paid off part of this deal by taking his euro MPs out of the center right coalition and into coalition with a ragbag of extreme right parties, at the cost of considerable ridicule. He must be praying that the Cheks ratify the Lisbon treaty and get him off the hook of having to have a referendum.
If he wins the general election, Cameron can expect the same back stabbing that Major experienced, if he does not bow completely to the will of the Europhobes.
By promising to legislate for future referendums, he is storing up more trouble for the future. This would be a meaningless gesture, because it would be easy for a future europhile government, with a commons majority, to repeal it. Any referendum designed to block development of the EU would effectively be a referendum on leaving the EU all together, and would split his party.
Democracy implies referendums in which all EU voters vote together. It is not democratic to try to use a national referendum to block what may be the will of the majority of all EU citizens. Cameron would, quite rightly, have a very rough ride in the Council of Ministers if he did this.
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#17
"What odds that the Blairs will be asking for the Palace of Versailles to be made available for their use?"
Steve Bell in the Guardian drew Blair as the Sun King years ago - "l'Etat, c'est moi!"
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goldCaeser 42
"Having done a bit of research of Camerons new 'chums' in the european parliament, i'm more worried about them lobbying for the wearing of pink triangles by homosexuals in the euro zone and the 'monitoring' of the Roma people."
There is more to "research" than simply reading an email from labour.org. Widening the scope of your source material may help you understand the difference between fact and smear.
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#vstrad
My point exactly. THE LARGEST PARTY IN THE 4TH LARGEST GROUP. Surely better to be the smallest party in the largest group. The number of Conservatives in a group means very little. It is the position of the group in the scheme of things that is important and the clout the group has. If you look at the recent past, I am sure you will agree that it was thanks to Gordon Brown there was a unified European approach to quantitative easing and supporting EEC economies. I think you will find it was Tony Blair's idea that there should be a position of President in the EEC, instead of the 6-monthly my turn approach. It's a pity that the most respected Conservative MEP, and former Leader of the Conservatives in Europe, had the whip removed because he was in favour of remaining in the mainstream where the action is. His one independent vote will probably carry more sway than those of the remainder of the Tories in the nomark group to which they are now aligned.
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#40 jrperry
You could never associate the word policy with the Conservatives, they just have soundbites or ideas which they are forced to evolve when they don't stand-up to reality.
If this was Brown, he'd be getting crucified for his political misjudgement whereas you're simply saying that Cameron's u-turn is adapting his position.
Him and George Osborne are hopeless yet because their supporters own most of the press and command the blogosphere, they're allowed to get away with it.
Unfortunately, when they're in power, we will suffer and suffer badly. We'll all be reminising for the good old days under Brown's Labour.
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I really dont see any option but to follow this line.There really is NO way we can get a referendum once this monstrosity is in force.
This will only harden the call for the UK to pull out of the EU all together and see more voters move to fringe parties.This is not democracy at work !!!
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Sagamix
Do you believe in a democratic process?
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#48 Susan
Point taken, however, now is not the time to be talking about what should have happened in the past and what 'the people' were denied.
The reality is now and we should be scrutinising those soon to take power.
As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't look good, they don't have policies as such, the just have ideas and promises. They haven't thought about how they're going to get things done. It reminds me of Blair - he could talk the talk but was unable to implement any of his promises.
What's more, it turned out the electorate didn't matter there were far more important forces in our 'democracy'.
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sagamix 44
Well, what better could I expect from you? All you managed was a subtle misquote of part of my post, a gross misrepresentation of what I wrote and what passes for your argument being in fact a little trickiness with labelling people as "Europhobic" when they are, in fact, as I said, merely "federalism-phobic".
I know you fantasise about a mass of Conservatives suddenly breaking ranks, voting UKIP and thus keeping Labour in power. It really is your last chance, after all. But it isn't going to happen, you know it, I know it.
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Let me see, this appears to be a European topic.
How many EU members are currently in recession?
How many additional troops are the other EU members willing and able to send to Afghanistan?
How many other EU members have expense scandals associated with their "elected" representatives?
How many EU member states actually WANT Bliar to be pushed out as a potential first president of the EU?
Actually, being cycnical, probably most of them, because whoever gets the job second is bound to be better than his predecessor. Now, wasn't that sexist of me? I automatically went for the default masculine third person singular, rather than a PC third person plural, such as their.
Let's see how far off topic I am.
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I am by nature anti-EU for a variety of reasons. Mainly I am concerned with the finances. When, if ever, will the accounts be signed off? We have a hugh beaurocracy, which is self-perpetuating, there are few checks and balances, apart from the almost hidden MEPS.
Without a referendum, there is no democracy. We are being railroaded into a hugh monlith, far distant from the UK, basically unelected, again, no democracy. We are commited to paying hugh amounts of money to an unaccountasble organisation. We have enough quangos here, how many in the EU? I shudder to think of our commitment to pay more and more (partly thanks to Blair). Can anyone show a iota of benefit from joining?
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The ratification process of the Lisbon Treaty itself shows how much the treaty is needed. If every key decision in Europe can be vetoed by every one of the 27 member states, the process will always take long enough for some countries to change government and change their mind, and everything will forever be on hold.
If David Cameron was indeed a realist, he would understand that Europeans can only influence global issues if they pool their resources. On its own Britain would be a small player at the table with giants like China, Russia and the US. Outside the EU I don’t think that Gordon Brown or indeed David Cameron would get much access to the global corridors of power.
And if David Cameron was indeed a realist, he would understand that you cannot cooperate without compromising. In other words, the price to pay for influence is loss of sovereignty. But the alternative is full freedom to change nothing.
If David Cameron was indeed a realist he would therefore understand that Britain needs the EU, and that Lisbon is badly needed to break the continuous deadlocks whereby a grumpy Czech president can determine the fate of hundreds of millions of Europeans, most of whom have not elected him.
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Saga @38..
Sorry,saga, but you haven't added much to your argument..
"If I understand correctly, Lisbon has to be ratified by all Member States, so a Czech rejection would kill it.
correct; but they're going to pass it"
Well,it may be unlikely,but not cast iron.
With all your posturing,you constantly ignore the fact that Cameron is not in power and cannot call a referendum.By the time he is (maybe) in power the whole Lisbon thing could be in different circumstances...right?
If the Czechs reject,it's dead.If they ratify, then the Tories develop a policy to take European wide ratification into account.
I can't see the point in them announcing now a 'what if' policy.
"if the Czech's reject it; but they won't, so a UK referendum would be anything but pointless ... it would give the British people (frightening thought, I know!) the ability to say "No" to the treaty and, de facto, "No" to Europe"
X'cuse me..isn't it the current Government that has not honoured its manifesto promise for a referendum? Isn't it the current Government that has virtually ratified Lisbon without asking the people? Isn't it a bit late,after we have ratified, to slate the Tories for not calling a referendum,when at present they can do no such thing?
And,no matter how many times you say it,a referendum on Lisbon would not be a 'NO' in totality to Europe
As to your comments about Mothers and sweets..very nice but frankly a bit fairy tale.
Don't think I missed anything actually,old son.
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Zydeco @ 54 et al
I do hope bloggers realise that I'm just having a bit of fun at Empress Cherie's "Where do you go to my lovely ..." expense.
It's a bit boring to always be straightlaced and droning on about politics all the time on this blog, so I like to lighten it up a bit occasionally if only for the sake of our long-suffering moderators.
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56. At 11:53am on 29 Oct 2009, Exiledscot52 wrote:
"Saga why beat up Cameron about a referendum....Didnt your beloved Labour party promise on and then said no we know best?
How do you square that circle?"
Err, no he didn't, you are obviously another who doesn't actually understand the difference between the (abandoned) constitutional treaty and the current Lisbon Treaty - only Cameron has pledge referendum on that, knowing full well that it would (have) take(n) a miracle if the treaty wasn't in operation by the time he got his hands on the keys for No.10.
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hey Nick, you've got to put up a better smoke screen than this to help your chums in labour. QT tonight might be more indicative of what the country thinks than your contacts in the Westminster bubble.
In keeping with a european theme, what will the Europeans make of El Gordo prompting the promotion of a man that he inherently distrusts (his own words) to the post of European president? Edifying do you think? Will they care or listen? I mean, this is the same man who stated time after time that we were better placed than other countries to weather the global financial crisis. Currently this Global financial crisis only appears to be affecting us.
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Bless David, he does not know which bandwagon to jump onto or off these days.
Try what is good for the country not yourself....
Sorry! Thats a line from someone else
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59. At 11:58am on 29 Oct 2009, jrperry wrote:
goldCaeser 42
"Having done a bit of research of Camerons new 'chums' in the european parliament, i'm more worried about them lobbying for the wearing of pink triangles by homosexuals in the euro zone and the 'monitoring' of the Roma people."
There is more to "research" than simply reading an email from labour.org. Widening the scope of your source material may help you understand the difference between fact and smear.
==========
Oh dear, another beleiver in the dumbed down-doctrine that if you are anti tory you must be pro labour. How Boring.
I suggest you take a very close look at Camerons new european allies, partlicularly those from poland and the czech republic.
because dismissing anyone who mentions Cameron's friendship with these far-right nationalists as a paid up labour member isn't going to make the nasty men stop talking about them. espicially since its not just the homophobia and anti-semitism. Some of their party members holds views that wouldn't get past the moderators on this site.
David Cameron took the Conservative party out of the most respected, influential centre-right voting bloc in the EU, and has got into bed with some rather unpleasant nationalists instead.
If all politics is about the message, what message is Cameron trying to send by doing this?
And if he doesn't want to be publically associated with these politicians or their views, why were they invited to share a platform at party conference?
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extremesense 61
It is not a u-turn to adapt your policies to changing facts - but it would be a u-turn to change the principles behind the policies. Anti-federalism is a principle, having a referendum is merely a policy.
"Unfortunately, when they're in power, we will suffer and suffer badly. We'll all be reminising for the good old days under Brown's Labour." You may think so, but somehow, I rather doubt it. Unless, of course, your "we" refers only to yourself and a couple of your mates.
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@63 poprischin
Of course he/she doesn't as a dedicated Labour sycophant democratic process is not a priority.
Democracy to Labour is equivalent to what garlic is to vampires
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#61 extremesense
You could never associate the word policy with the Conservatives, they just have soundbites or ideas which they are forced to evolve when they don't stand-up to reality.
If this was Brown, he'd be getting crucified for his political misjudgement whereas you're simply saying that Cameron's u-turn is adapting his position.
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Wrong. The simple facts are:
1. If the Lisbon treaty is not ratified then the Conservatives will hold a referendum.
2. If it has been ratified then they will not be able to 'un-ratify' it retrospectively.
Are you suggesting that a Government wastes taxpayers money by holding a referendum, that cannot change a result, simply to follow political dogma?
In what way is this stance the same as a PM standing up in Parliament announcing a cut in the TA budget and then reversing that decision?
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54#
The most pertinent comment of all so far. Totally agree with you.
Theres far more important things going on for our erstwhile editor to be writing about than this.
Complete waste of bandwidth.
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JRPerry 59
You seem to be saying that the more extremist views of the Conservatives' new allies in Europe are just a smear invented by Labour. If that's your point, then I think it is misguided: the matter is well documented. If that isn't your point, then you don't really have one, beyond a rather lame personal attack on the original poster.
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Brown has tucked us up good and proper so Cameron is in a pickle.
Browns announcment yesterday to back Bliar for President now adds up with his refusal on the referendum and his signing of the treaty.
With Bliar as president and Mr Browns favours he's owed by his pro Euro counterparts he is guaranteed a good job in Brussels once he's sacked as PM next may.
The EU is without doubt a clear symbol of an un-democratic system run by politicans who have no interest in anything other than themselves.
British democracy has been killed a Labour government.
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Boilerplated
'...you are obviously another who doesn't actually understand the difference between the (abandoned) constitutional treaty and the current Lisbon Treaty...'
And the difference is (and please don't say they've got different names)?
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#10 boilerplated.
Perhaps you're right about Cameron's dithering over the Lisbon Treaty. Maybe he should simply adopt Labour's approach to this issue - lie decisively then renege on your promises when in power.
#18 balancedthought - "this treaty means there will never need be another treaty".
Really? Is that not what has been claimed each time the EU has extended it's powers? It is utterly naive to think this will be the end of the process.
#33 balancedthought refers to the Tories being "hooked up with people who praise the SS". In the real world all political parties have to deal with people whose views/values do not coincide with theirs in every respect - if they didn't we would not have a single ally in the middle east - and this applies just as much to Labour as the Tories. After all, Blair's biggest supporter in his appointment as EU President is Berlusconi who in 2003 described Mussolini as a benign dictator who "never killed anyone" and "who sent people on holiday to confine them". Or is it ok to hook up with a defender of fascism if he provides you with free holidays?
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72. At 12:23pm on 29 Oct 2009, U14147588 wrote:
"hey Nick, you've got to put up a better smoke screen than this to help your chums in labour."
Oh dear, there are still seems to be those who consider the BBC and their journalists biased if they don't write what they personally want to hear, the only peoples credibility they diminish are their own...
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Will Miliband be resigning as FS after his disgraceful comments on the Today programme about Michal Kaminski have been found to be incorrect?
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goldCaesar 74
If you want to deny your afilitions and the sourcing of your "pink triangles" "research", then that's up to you. Your credibility lies in pieces on the floor.
The whole story of Nazi and anti-semitic associations with the other parties in the Tories' euro-grouping is a Mandelson-Campbell-originated smear.
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Boilerplated the labour party is now singular and male?
I recall a committment to call a referendum on progress to a united europe? Explain the difference between that and the Lisbon Treaty?
Perhaps the problem is not the name of the treaty which was to be voted on but that a treaty to bring closer integration was ratified without recourse to the electorate. This would appear to contradict the manifesto offering. I almost typed promise......
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We cannot be isolationist. Any relationship depends on giving up an element of "sovreignty", marriage, work, friendship, membership of a club. Why should anyone assume that the EC is different. It is just time for the Tories to grow up and if this is the first sign of it, then good. We cannot operate as a superpower: we are not and cannot (not just because of Brown et al) ever afford to be one.
Let's just get on in the real world and try to shape the EU/EC in the image we want while accepting it is never going to be perfect. Let's face it the UK is not perfect for everyone...
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Boiler @71..
OK..you've got the argument in that Lisbon is not the 'old' EU Constitution treaty.Well that's what this Government want you to believe,so they can continue to justify breaking their manifesto promise.
As you're such an expert,please tell us all,in brief terms,the exact differences between 'old' and Lisbon...and how Lisbon has such huge changes (constitutionally) that it justifies the broken promise.
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So we have the Tories who have to appear to be Eurosceptic whilst in fact working hard behind the scenes to get the best deal in Europe for the UK.
And on the other hand we have Labour who have to appear to be Europhile whilst in fact working hard behind the scenes to get the best deal in Europe for the UK.
If only British politics were more about conviction and policy than childish posturing over greatly exaggerated differences.
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goldCaesar 74
"Some of their party members holds views that wouldn't get past the moderators on this site"
The same could be said (perhaps with better grammar) of any grouping of reasonably intelligent adults. See 25-27 above.
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"We'll all be reminising for the good old days under Brown's Labour."
Proof positive, if ever it were needed, that sniffing marker pens is bad for you.
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#83 Boiler
You really ought to get out more. People are more interested in things like MPs expenses (which are still being thrust down our throats), the ineffective war in Afgahnistan, our standard of living, particularly as a result of the recession, and the abject failure of government policies, and the ongoing economic malaise that is engulfing us all.
Any of the above would be a more appropriate topic for this blog, hence my opinion that good ole Nick is purely blowing smoke. It is a secondary issue as to whose behalf he is blowing smoke on. i have my suspicions, and I don't think it's the consrevative party. Am I wrong?
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Dear Nick,
Oct 29 you coverered Cameron
Oct 27 Cameron
Oct 23 Griffin
Oct 22 Cameron
Oct 21 Griffin
Oct 20 Griffin
Oct 20 Cameron
I get the feeling that if, tomorrow, the justice minister is hauled in by PC Plod for fraud, the Chancellor for embezzlement and the DPP for employing illegal immigrants, you will be left with a dilemma on what to cover in your next blog.
Cameron? Griffin? Griffin? Cameron?
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UK-Silent-Majority
Not that silent then.
I do hope you are not claiming, by your username, to represent anybody's views but your own. That would be rather arrogant.
And it appears you either cannot type 'Blair' or are labouring under a misapprehension about your sense of humour ...
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Can't be bothered to wait for your response Boiler...
Here's a little help on Lisbon..
1. It establishes a legally new European Union in the constitutional form of a supranational European State.
2. It empowers this new European Union to act as a State vis-a-vis other States and its own citizens.
3. It makes us all citizens of this new European Union.
4. To hide the enormity of the change, the same name – European Union – will be kept while the Lisbon Treaty changes fundamentally the legal and constitutional nature of the Union.
5. It creates a Union Parliament for the Union's new citizens.
6. It creates a Cabinet Government of the new Union.
7. It creates a new Union political President.
8. It creates a civil rights code for the new Union's citizens.
9. It makes national Parliaments subordinate to the new Union.
10. It gives the new Union self-empowerment powers.
Now..does that scare you? Is this NOT a Constitution?
Has this Government lied to us?
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extremesense 64
I am not very enamoured by any of the 3 main parties as I have said before. From my point view at the time of voting, I know, I will have to vote for one of the 2 main parties, because and I am in the brigade of anybody but Labour.
However I am very much with the Conservatives over the EU. The reason is I am a democrat and believe the peoples voice has to be heard. The EU over time has been eroding our democracy pulling Britain further into a federal project that the British on the whole do not support.
Labour promised the public a vote and as far as I can see the Conservatives as much as possible have tried to deliver that. The treaty will be ratified really without the permission of not only most people in this Country but in other EU Countries as well. It is not right in a democracy for this to happen. We do not live in a dictatorship as far as I know, but the way things are going with the public having less and less of a say on more issues, it feels like it.
Personally I see no advantage to being a member of this club in Europe apart from perhaps the dubious one of no more wars there. It is corrupt, costs us a vast amount of money each year, which will increase this coming year, even though we are bankrupt. Furthermore the thought of Blair as president makes me sick to my stomach.
In my opinion we should have done what Norway has done, be good neighbours but stay out of this dream of one big super state. Too much power in too few hands is a very dangerous thing.
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47 rockrobin 7
shouldn't that now be 'call a referendum'
49 JRPerry
Your position is based on a fallacy - that if in power David Cameron will be able to effect the EU and repatriate powers. As I am sure you know this is the in or out moment. David Camerons position is based on a political calculation of what votes he will win what he will lose by being eurosceptic, that is neither a principled position nor the act of a leader.
Just because I don't agree with you does not mean it is not a balanced opinion. Although some of David Camerons allies in Europe might think that.
You may think that the
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48 Susan Croft
#The last time I looked the people of this Country wanted a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and a no vote would be the most likely outcome, they were promised this by the Labour Government.
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Two points what evidence can you possibly have that the people of this country wanted a referendum, at a guess I would say that 50% of the population wouldn't have a clue what they were voting for anyway,unless they allowed themselves to be swayed by the very powerful Tory press ie the Sun,The Telegrapth and the Daily Mail, if you suggest that I am denigrating the British people, can you honestly say that you have read the Lisbon treaty chapter and verse? if you have then your one of the very few that have, and if you haven't what on earth would you or any other pro-referendum people on these blogs be voting for or against.
being as you claim to be a stickler for the facts, Labour at no time promised a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, as agreed by Ken Baker and Gummer among others.
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The only reason Gordon is supporting Blair for the EU presidency, is because he is aware that it will cause problems for Cameron as PM.
This means two things to me.
1. Brown acknowldeges Cameron will be the next PM
2. It is a cynical political 'dirty tricks' manoeuvre. Done out of spite, not for the benefit of either the UK or the EU. A bit like the allegations made by Neather in fact.
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90. At 12:46pm on 29 Oct 2009, jrperry wrote:
goldCaesar 74
"Some of their party members holds views that wouldn't get past the moderators on this site"
The same could be said (perhaps with better grammar) of any grouping of reasonably intelligent adults. See 25-27 above
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i'm sorry,
You think most reasonably inteligent adults have positive feelings about anti-gay legislation and forced registration for the Roma people?
Thats scary stuff.
Oh & a word to the wise i would look very carefully at your own glass house before criticising the grammar or spelling of others..
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The Labour party say that Europe is the Tories weak spot. Nick keeps talking about the Tories & Europe.
Any connection?
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grandanidote 98
Yes they did promise a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty everyone agrees on that issue, so there is not much point in going backwards.
Secondly, that is the Labour line, denigrate the people by saying they could never understand. Labour have tried to pull the wool over the voters eyes for 12 years, but the public are wise enough to know that this was all spin and untruths.
Yes I have read a good deal of the Lisbon Treaty and I know enough to understand that it gives a lot of powers away from our democracy. The public would understand this to, if it was presented to them in a proper manner. As it is they will not get the chance. That is not democracy it is Labour once again taking away our freedom of choice.
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I think Daves best approach to the EU would be on the first month the Conservatives come to power to simply stop sending the cheques.
Then if they keep phoning, he should dump them - by text.
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#75 jrperry
I think you're using semantics to excuse one of the many Tory u-turns.
The reason it's a u-turn is because the US has instructed Cameron (via Hague) to play ball and that's exactly what he's doing. Sure, some of them like Hague may feel anti-federalist, however, they've now been told not to be.
The Tories and Europe spell incompetence.... back in July, Timothy Kirkhope, leader of the Torie's 25 MEPs, was forced to step aside for Michel Kaminski in order to diffuse a row surrounding the Edward McMillan-Scott 'incident' after a phone call from Polish president Kaczynski to Mr Cameron so it's not the first time they've had to give way to others.
You might be right, I might be in the minority in suffering when the Conservatives get in but that's because I am dependent on care and don't have that much longer to live - this new-style budget airline type care that the Tories are so fond of doesn't sound much fun for 'me and my mates'.
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So Obama wants to pick up the phone and be able to speak to someone in Europe in the case of an emergency. Perhaps what he means is an English speaking someone and that someone should be a PM of the country who has supported him most in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Britain of course.
No European so called President would be able to react in an emergency as was shown during the problems between Russia and Georgia. They bumbled around for weeks trying to set up meetings to try to provide a united front against Russia which in the end nearly caused the next world war. With Blair in charge it probably would have.
Europe should be a trading partnership only with co-operation on crime climate change and other common policies as necessary.
The thought of a European foreign policy with Milliband in charge is a joke but that is exactly what the EU has become.
It's got its knickers in such a twist and if not radically reformed will end up imploding on itself. The cause will be the very people who have been denied a vote on it. We here do not see the disquiet in the other EU countries.
Cameron probably knows its only a matter of time before it begins to disintegrate so he should stick to his guns and not be intimidated by fools like Brown Blair Mandelson and Milliband.
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99 zydeco
#2. It is a cynical political 'dirty tricks' manoeuvre. Done out of spite, not for the benefit of either the UK or the EU.
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Do you have any idea how foolish that statement makes you look?.
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goldCaesar 100
You wrote "I'm sorry". So you should be. Stop smearing.
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Interesting to read the comments of squirming Tories on the subject of Europe.... well, at least they're not trying to smear through revising history as they did when their new bedfellows were brought out in the open 'warts and all'.
I wonder what Hilary Clinton said to Hague?
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balancedthought 97
"Your position is based on a fallacy - that if in power David Cameron will be able to effect the EU and repatriate powers."
A nett 5bn per year (and rising) contribution to the EU budget and 30bn per year (and rising) nett imports from the EU into the UK give Cameron a very strong negotiating position.
"As I am sure you know this is the in or out moment."
That's opinion expressed as fact. Though we are nett importers, we need access to the EU markets; likewise the EU needs access to our markets. What we don't need is federalism. It is a reasonable and integral policy that should negotiate to that position. In politics, that's called a "third way".
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Tell me, is there any other country in the EU who has a leader who, when looking at an annual budget deficit in excess of 175 BILLION, would attempt to save 20 MILLION by reducing training of soldiers, then realise his mistake and re-instate 2.5 million of it and then, a day later, re-instate the rest of it?
Is there ay other member state in the EU that has a leader who, in an attempt to solve a deep problem about "corrupt" politicians, commissions, or causes to be commissioned, two separate inquiries, both of which point out the problems and a potential cure, but which don't provide the answer the politicians are looking for, and thereby extend the probelm for everybody involved, inclduing the poor suckers who eventually have to pay all the bills - US.
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I guess the leaders don't have enough to do at home. Since it is obvious to everyone now that the bankers run everything and the elected are simply show dogs for the public, what real difference does any of this make. I assume the bankers would like to have another layer of government between themselves and the people they steal from. The bankers are smart enough to realize that although they escaped hanging by outraged mobs this time, they might not be so lucky the next time and of course there will be a next time.
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Pop @ 63
"Do you believe in a democracy?"
I do but I don't want to see a surfeit of it
with the Lisbon Treaty, I'd rather our elected representatives took a pragmatic, informed decision on our behalf ... that's what they're there for after all, right? ... than have the question put to a Public who are ill equipped (and therefore unlikely) to do the same; it's an important decision and it's correspondingly important that we get it right
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107. At 1:36pm on 29 Oct 2009, jrperry wrote:
goldCaesar 100
You wrote "I'm sorry". So you should be. Stop smearing.
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Stop smearing.
Its that what Camerons's going to whine to Jeremy Paxmna or John Snow when he finally gets cornered on it.
He's managed to avoid the question so far, but its starting to get asked more & more frequently. Inevitably one of his far-right european associates is going to announce some draconian domestic policy, at which point he's going to have to answer the question which you yourself have also avoided.
Why did he take the tories out of Europes most respceted & influential centre-right voting bloc to become a fringe member of a bloc of Nationalists?
Or will he tell the nasty men to stop 'smearing'.
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jrperry
You still insist that accounts of anti-Semitic and other extremist views held by the Conservatives' allies in Europe were invented by Labour. Do you have any evidence for this? Do you also think that accounts of WWII concentration camps were invented by Zionists?
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extremesense 104
"...it's a u-turn is because the US has instructed Cameron (via Hague) to play ball and that's exactly what he's doing. Sure, some of them like Hague may feel anti-federalist, however, they've now been told not to be."
Fantasy.
".... back in July, Timothy Kirkhope, leader of the Torie's 25 MEPs, was forced to step aside for Michel Kaminski in order to diffuse a row surrounding the Edward McMillan-Scott 'incident' after a phone call from Polish president Kaczynski to Mr Cameron..."
Fantasy again.
"You might be right, I might be in the minority in suffering when the Conservatives get in but that's because I am dependent on care and don't have that much longer to live - this new-style budget airline type care that the Tories are so fond of doesn't sound much fun for 'me and my mates'."
I'm really sorry to hear that, and I wish you well. However, with the health service budget ring-fenced by the Tories, as everyone knows, the "new-style budget airline type care that the Tories are so fond of" line is really rather a dishonest smear of Conservative policy, don't you think?
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There are a lot of posters here who claim to know exactly what is going inside the conservative party but who are obvious shills for labour. Either they know, and shouldn't be privy to the information (should be having their collars felt by plod, methinks), or they don't know and are just making a lot of noise about nothing.
Meanwhile, just like Nero, they are fiddling while Rome burns, metaphorically speaking.
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106. At 1:34pm on 29 Oct 2009, grandantidote wrote:
99 zydeco
#2. It is a cynical political 'dirty tricks' manoeuvre. Done out of spite, not for the benefit of either the UK or the EU.
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Do you have any idea how foolish that statement makes you look?.
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But surely not as foolish as 'Bumbling Brown' and his joke of a Government?
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extremesense 108
Did you hear Today, this morning? See 84 above.
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Don't you just love it when you hear things like...
"Interesting to read the comments of squirming Tories on the subject of Europe."
Of course the Tories are squirming..it's all their fault that the people were not granted the opportunity to cast their vote on Lisbon...as promised.
OK...yawn.
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I note that the US economy grew last month. wasn't that another of El Gordo's comparisons last year, when he was listing all the countries that we were better placed than?
To keep it in line with the european theme of all Nick's recent threads, that figure is even better than the growth in Europe.
So, we're off the pace with everybody, which is in line with what El Gordo suggested, but probably not in the way that he meant, or hoped that we would believe. I don't notice him doing anything at the moment, so he's probably still making some big decisions on our behalf. Could somebody please tell him to stop.
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Sagamix
I am sorry but I take offence that you tell me I am ill equipped to make a decision.
The only possible reason I think I would be so ill eqipped is that the government have fiddled the figures. Which they have.
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When is the political class, and I include you in that Nick, going to appreciate that what effects most people in this country at the moment is this dreadful recession. What is the point in grandstanding over our relationship with the EU when the real issue is the economy?
At the moment both the City and the government are in denial over the mess they have dumped all over the taxpayers of this country. The private value-adding sector of the economy has been hung out to dry by the politicians and all we get is waffle about whether Tony B. Liar will be the President and how Dave is getting on with Angela. This is not a soap-opera!
The entire structure of political debate in this country is skewed and the political class complain about the disaffection of the electorate from politics. Is it all that surprising?
To be honest I don't care whether we are in the EU or not. If we are in the EU then let us accept that the decisions have gone to Brussels and begin to disassemble bloated government in this country to suit, reduce the size of the legislature and focus national politics on the things that we can control: order on the streets, health, education among others. On the other hand if we choose not to be in the EU then let's hurry up and leave it. We cannot go on being neither one thing nor the other. Either the political class do the dump or they have to get off the pot.
At the moment the country is on its way to the Bankruptcy Court in Carey Street and all we hear is Europe, Europe, Europe, waffle, waffle, waffle! Haven't these people got jobs to do? If not, then why are we paying them the salary?
Where is the plan to save what is left of the British economy? That is a rhetorical question on my part as I know full well there isn't one, because whether they be Tory, Labour, Liberal, Leftie, Fundamentalist, Racist or Fascist none have got a clue. They are all useless: quite useless!
It's the economy for God's sake: the economy!
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#112, sagamix wrote:
Pop @ 63
"Do you believe in a democracy?"
I do but I don't want to see a surfeit of it
with the Lisbon Treaty, I'd rather our elected representatives took a pragmatic, informed decision on our behalf ... that's what they're there for after all, right? ..."
Saga,
In a way I agree. Our representatives should represent us.
But an INFORMED decision?
When even the Minister for Europe said she hadn't actually been bothered to read it? (Then complained she was simply "window dressing"....)
How many of the other lobby-fodder mob do you think actually took the time to even skim it?
I'd bet most of them took the two-paragraph summary and decided they'd read the book. You know, like kids doing O Levels...
Informed? By whom? Using what independent faculties in their examination?
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112. At 1:51pm on 29 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
Pop @ 63
"Do you believe in a democracy?"
I do but I don't want to see a surfeit of it
with the Lisbon Treaty, I'd rather our elected representatives took a pragmatic, informed decision on our behalf ......
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On their own admission, many MPs admit to not having read the Lisbon Treaty, so where you get the INFORMED decision assumption from baffles me.
Maybe that balaclava is obscuring your already warped view of the World!
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#112 sugamix
How patronising and condescending can you be?
I'd like to hear from 400, at least, of our elected represntatives that they read, digested, understood, questioned, and received satisfactory answers to their questions, before I would begin to accept that they have done their job properly on our behalf since, as you correctly point out, that's what they are bound to do. In fact, it's the only thing they're bound to do.
Pending that, I cannot accept your assertion that "they got it right", which is where you left your erudite post.
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112
Sagamix
A surfeit of democracy? Yes I can see why you would find that irksome. I think the system you might be looking for is 'gleichschaltung'.
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Saga..again.
"with the Lisbon Treaty, I'd rather our elected representatives took a pragmatic, informed decision on our behalf ... that's what they're there for after all, right? ... than have the question put to a Public who are ill equipped (and therefore unlikely) to do the same; it's an important decision and it's correspondingly important that we get it right"
The most telling expression in the above is 'our elected representatives' isn't it?
The great unwashed are unable to correctly judge such things,aren't they?
Perhaps you would put forward the proposal that we are equally ill equipped to decide upon who represents us? After all..it's an important decision and we've got to get it right..eh?
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I have just been disappointed. I saw a headline in the Business section that said Balls had been dropped, but it was a metaphor rather than a statement of fact.
Still, something else we can look forward to next year......
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goldCaesar 113
"at which point he [Cameron]'s going to have to answer the question which you yourself have also avoided. Why did he take the tories out of Europes most respceted & influential centre-right voting bloc to become a fringe member of a bloc of Nationalists?"
Naturally I don't like the phrasing, but that isn't at all a question I have avoided answering. See my post 4, above.
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Cameron is in a no win situation, so is making the best of a very bad job. The mess that he will inherit from Brown is truly horrendous on all fronts.
Why does nobody ever pick up on the experience of Norway and Switzerland, both countries surrounded by the EU yet not subject to paying in vast sums and totally sovereign.
Ever had difficulty travelling to, or trading with either of them? Thought not. So next time some euro apologist cretin bangs on about how vital our membership is, just say Norway and Switzerland and watch them splutter as there is no arguement.
The only thing we have in common with the EU is geography, just about everything else is based on different principles which millions of my ancestors died fighting for.
I have lots of overseas friends but would I want to marry one? Not if I wanted a happy compatible relationship that's for sure. There are fundamental differences between us and the EU is a project which should be left to develop natually over centuries. Don't forget our history, we have been a unified nation for centuries, unlike most of the others in the EU, hence our lack of need to cosy up with others in fear of a big bad neighbour.
We can still be friends and trading partners but cultually and politically it will take decades to get closer.
Driving us down a road that we have not been asked to travel on will only create division and tensions and our politicians constantly fail to recognise this fact.
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102 Susan croft
#Yes they did promise a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty everyone agrees on that issue, so there is not much point in going backwards.
Just because you say it many times it does not become fact, Labour never at any time promised a referendum on the lisbon treaty , if your convinced they did then furnish the rest of us with the evidence of that.
I think that if you just like to read through some of these posts you will find contrary to what you say no one agrees with that.
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#Secondly, that is the Labour line, denigrate the people by saying they could never understand. Labour have tried to pull the wool over the voters eyes for 12 years, but the public are wise enough to know that this was all spin and untruths.
Well I knew you would pull the denigration line thats why I mentioned it in my post.
What I don't understand is why you keep writing as if to suggest that you have some special insight into how people are thinking [everyone agrees, the public] your not everyone and your only one member of the public.
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#Yes I have read a good deal of the Lisbon Treaty and I know enough to understand that it gives a lot of powers away from our democracy. The public would understand this to, if it was presented to them in a proper manner
Well good on you for having read atlast some of the Lisbon treaty and formed your own opinions, so you disagree with Ken Baker who has said on a number of occasions That we have nothing to fear from the Lisbon treaty, and thatn it is far less of a threat to Britain than the Maststricht treaty was.
How would you propose that the public should be presented with the treaty, should a copy be sent to every eligible voter in the country for their perusal, should we have night classes at the local schools attended by speakers of the oposing parties to judge whether the electrate had read and understood the treaty, or alternatively should we let the heavily biased Tory anti euro press help people to decide, which would you advocate or do you have a proposal that would be fair and just, in the absolute knowledge that those voting knew what they were voting about.
As you might have gathered I am against referendums on this scale, to me it seems a cop out, we elect people to represent us on these matters and if we don't trust them to do right then don't vote for them.
If you have faith in the decision of the great British public then pop into your local Spar and just casualy ask one or two whats there
opinion on the Lisbon treaty,I did just that, I asked a middle aged lady what she thought, her reply was I've heard about it but I don't know anything about it, I don't bother myself with these things. I then asked a young mother with a child she replied,Whats a Lisbon treaty, when I tried to explain to her she replied oh! I thought you were talking about some new pizza,I don't no nothing about it, the rest of the afternoon produced basicaly the same results, but you would like these people to decide on the long term future of our country.
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#78. At 12:32pm on 29 Oct 2009, Fubar_Saunders wrote:
"Theres far more important things going on for our erstwhile editor to be writing about than this.
Complete waste of bandwidth."
Allowing the euroseptics to show their collective ignorance and xenophobia is never a waste of bandwidth!...
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85. At 12:40pm on 29 Oct 2009, jrperry wrote:
goldCaesar 74
If you want to deny your afilitions and the sourcing of your "pink triangles" "research", then that's up to you. Your credibility lies in pieces on the floor.
The whole story of Nazi and anti-semitic associations with the other parties in the Tories' euro-grouping is a Mandelson-Campbell-originated smear
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'Deny my afiliations'?
Grow up. you'll never develop your own opinion until you stop seeing politics as right vs left. Haven't you noticed? even the politiciams don't talk like that anymore, at least not those from the big 3.
Actually the 'pink triangles' was a reference to something the Nazi's did. to make people aware of homosexuals in their community. I felt it an apropriate analogy given the anti-gay legislation proposed by Cameron's new best friends.
I mistakenly thought this was as well known to most people as the yellow stars.
Your'e comment about mandelson constructing 'smears' on the tories european bedfellows shows either a breathtaking naivity for someone on a political blog or a childish burying of your head in the sand and a refusal to believe that Davids adventures in Europe will eventually damage his domestic credentials.
Thankyou for showing me that even the most enthusiastic Tory apologist is either embarassed or afraid to discuss his parties european affiliations
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80. At 12:32pm on 29 Oct 2009, UK-SILENT-MAJORITY wrote:
"The EU is without doubt a clear symbol of an un-democratic system run by politicans who have no interest in anything other than themselves.
British democracy has been killed a Labour government."
If that is true then it was the Tories that signed up to the creation of the EU, not Labour, I think that you will find that Major signed the Maastricht Treaty in '92/93...
Again the euroseptics can't get their fact correct! :-(
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pdavies65 114
"You still insist that accounts of anti-Semitic and other extremist views held by the Conservatives' allies in Europe were invented by Labour. Do you have any evidence for this?"
Not necessarily "invented", but shined up from a rag-bag of out of context minor allegations into a full scale smear by Labour, yes indeed. It is all nicely summarised over at ConHome. Do a search for "latvian nazi smears".
I also said that goldCaesar's research came from emails from labour.org. For your information, I also get these emails.
"Do you also think that accounts of WWII concentration camps were invented by Zionists?"
No I don't and how dare you insult me, and the victims of the concentration camps, in that way? I know I won't get it from you, but you should apologise for bringing a reasonable political discussion down to the level of a particularly disgusting smear.
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Can anyone tell me why I have to join a political union simply because I want to buy German Cars, or Danish Bacon? If the Chinese come out with better bacon or cars, I may prefer their's, do I have to join a political Union with them too? I thought we were already committed to 'Globalisation', or is it that Globalisation only means exporting my job to Asia?
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@ 121
"I am sorry but I take offence that you tell me I am ill equipped to make a decision."
I didn't mean you Exiled (c'mon!) I meant the Public
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129. At 2:16pm on 29 Oct 2009, jrperry wrote:
goldCaesar 113
"at which point he [Cameron]'s going to have to answer the question which you yourself have also avoided. Why did he take the tories out of Europes most respceted & influential centre-right voting bloc to become a fringe member of a bloc of Nationalists?"
Naturally I don't like the phrasing, but that isn't at all a question I have avoided answering. See my post 4, above.
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Read post 4.
so what you're saying is that Cameron is needs allies and he's so unprincipled he'll settle for being a fringe member of a nationalist voting bloc?
He'd be more credible without them.
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fom @ 123
"When even the Minister for Europe said she hadn't actually been bothered to read it?"
yes, but that was Caroline Flint
I'm sure all the important people have either read it or been well briefed
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117 zydeco
But surely not as foolish as 'Bumbling Brown' and his joke of a Government?
An equally foolish reply following a foolish statement.
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Nick. The first line of your blog says that Merkel and Sakorzy sat down for a dinner for two last night.
You then go on to tell us what they were discussing.
So were you :
1. Eavesdropping?
2. Actually at a dinner for three - including you?
3. Guessing at what was said?
Pray tell us Nick.
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It's worrying that so many Eurocrats and Europhiles wilfully forget the well known principles of democracy, “Governed by consent”, “The will of the people”, “Mandate”, in their head long dash for superstate status and all the grandeur that they imagine this will bring.
But you can not build a castle upon sand, it needs foundations of rock, and that in any political context is only given by the democratic will of the peoples of Europe.
The Tories should stick to their guns on this fundamental issue, otherwise the precedent has been set and the basic principles of democracy right across Europe will have been weakened, which is not only dangerous to ourselves , but also our neighbours.
The silly thing is , if the Eurocrats had not lost patiences with the people in their gold rush for superstate status and grandeur, they could have persuaded the people of Europe to support some kind of superstate , either federal based or sovereign states working together, it was all there for the taking, but they could not wait and have made the current process seem illegitimate by many.
Of course all this then lends itself to the argument that if these Eurocrats made such a basic misjudgement over democratic legitimacy, then what other misjudgements have they made in the Treaty itself ?
This issue is not going to go away !
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zed @ 124
"many MPs admit to not having read the Lisbon Treaty"
well don't worry because I've read it ... read every word of the wretched thing ... and I can report back that you have very little to fear - it is NOT a quantum step towards the reactionary bogeyman of a United States of Europe (will never happen) but merely a modest step forward in the level of co-operation (where sensible) and harmonisation (where appropriate) of a bunch of independent (and culturally diverse) Nation States on this grand old continent of ours; this continent which, for all its faults, is the most clear thinking progressive corner of the globe ... if spheres could have corners, that is
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#81 Poprishchin
Here is what some people across Europe said about the constitution/treaty;
The substance of the Constitution is preserved. That is a fact.
Angela Merkel, German Chancellor
A great part of the content of the European Constitution is captured in the new treaties.
Jose Zapatero, Spanish Prime Minister
The good thing is that all the symbolic elements are gone, and that which really matters the core is left.
Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Danish Prime Minister
They haven’t changed the substance - 90 per cent of it is still there.
Bertie Ahern, Irish Taoiseach
It’s essentially the same proposal as the old Constitution.
Margot Wallstrom, European Commissioner
Only cosmetic changes have been made and the basic document remains the same.
Vaclav Klaus, Czech President
There’s nothing from the original institutional package that has been changed.
Astrid Thors, Finnish Europe Minister
This text is, in fact, a rerun of a great part of the substance of the Constitutional Treaty.
Valery Giscard d’Estaing, Author of the European Constitution
Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly. All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way.
Valery Giscard d’Estaing, Author of the European Constitution
They decided that the document should be unreadable. If it is unreadable, it is not constitutional, that was the sort of perception. Should you succeed in understanding it at first sight there might be some reason for a referendum, because it would mean that there is something new.
Giuliano Amato, Italian Interior Minister
The aim of the Constitutional Treaty was to be more readable; the aim of this treaty is to be unreadable. The Constitution aimed to be clear, whereas this treaty had to be unclear.
It is a success.
Karel de Gucht, Belgian Foreign Minister
Britain is different. Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?
Jean Claude Juncker, Prime Minister of Luxembourg
The good thing about not calling it a Constitution is that no one can ask for a referendum on it.
Giuliano Amato, Italian Interior Minister
The manifesto is what we put to the public. We’ve got to honour that manifesto. That is an issue of trust for me with the electorate.
Gordon Brown, 24 June 2007
This is what the NuLabour numpties are saying:
The Constitutional Treaty has been abandoned.”
David Miliband, Foreign Secretary
Roll On 2010 - Time to get rid of these NuLabour muppets.
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82. At 12:34pm on 29 Oct 2009, sonofthedesert wrote:
"#10 boilerplated.
Perhaps you're right about Cameron's dithering over the Lisbon Treaty. Maybe he should simply adopt Labour's approach to this issue - lie decisively then renege on your promises when in power."
But neither Blair or Brown lied, they promised a referendum on the constitutional treaty, when that fell there was no point in holding a referendum on a now defunct treaty! But it's so funny now to see the hypocritical political right in the UK suddenly find solace in the idea of referenda when they were staunchly against them when they were in power and ratifying other EU treaties or imposing the Poll Tax etc, then they were all for the right of the elected (Westminster) parliament to decide such matters...
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U @ 125
"How patronising and condescending can you be?"
I probably have a couple of gears left if that's what you're asking
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131. At 2:26pm on 29 Oct 2009, grandantidote wrote:
102 Susan croft
#Yes they did promise a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty everyone agrees on that issue, so there is not much point in going backwards.
Just because you say it many times it does not become fact, Labour never at any time promised a referendum on the lisbon treaty , if your convinced they did then furnish the rest of us with the evidence of that.
I think that if you just like to read through some of these posts you will find contrary to what you say no one agrees with that.
============
No they didn't promise a referendum on the lisbon treaty, they promised a referendum on basically the same document with a different cover.
Now some people may be happy with that piece of linguistic sleight of hand, but we all KNOW, however much we pretend otherwise due to stupid party loyalty, that Labours decision not to hold a referendum on the renamed document was going against their manifesto, and without a scrap of integrity.
But since when did the words integrity and promise ever mean anything to our current government.
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@ Now you are being very condecending....
Pray tell me what am I but the public.......
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84. At 12:39pm on 29 Oct 2009, skynine wrote:
"Will Miliband be resigning as FS after his disgraceful comments on the Today programme about Michal Kaminski have been found to be incorrect?"
Care to point out were he was incorrect, according to a quick look on Michal Kaminski "Wikipeadia" [1] page and from what I recall of Miliband's comments he doesn't appear to have been to far off the mark, as I said, perhaps you could point out the factual errors?
[1] accepting of the limitations of any Wikipeada reference
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131. At 2:26pm on 29 Oct 2009, grandantidote wrote:
.....If you have faith in the decision of the great British public then pop into your local Spar and just casualy ask one or two whats there
opinion on the Lisbon treaty,I did just that, I asked a middle aged lady what she thought, her reply was I've heard about it but I don't know anything about it,.......
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Which is the same response you would get from many politicians too, provided they answered honestly.
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Another thought for Sagamix...
That was Caroline Flint.....shows a disregard for a front bench spokesperson from your party.....
How can you put your trust in people you appear to feel are beneath holding high office? Do you not trust yourself to make a decision, but will follow blindly? Never thought of Brown as the Pied Piper ......but it is an image worthy of a smile.....
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goldCaesar 138
I can see you comfortably settling into five thousand different ways of associating Conservative policy with Natzism, as you have clearly been asked to, so I shall refer you to my post 135 and leave it there. You clearly have no interest in conducting an argument at any level above smearing and I have no interest in continuing the discussion on those terms.
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Crash Gordon - UK best placed to weather the recession.
Germany, France, Italy and now the USA are out of recession and experiencing growth.
Yet the UK is experiencing a contraction that is hailed as a fragile recovery.
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jrperry 135
Enough mock outrage. How exactly does my comment insult the victims of concentration camps? I am not the one insisting that right-wing extremists are not as bad as some people say ... It wasn't a random insult, it was a valid historical allusion. I am sorry if you missed the point and took offense.
But now that you have back-pedalled on your initial assertion about Labour smears, and admitted that your own 'research' was done at ConHome, you seem to be doing a pretty good job of destroying your own credibility, so I'll say no more!
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141. At 2:40pm on 29 Oct 2009, Zydeco wrote:
Nick. The first line of your blog says that Merkel and Sakorzy sat down for a dinner for two last night.
You then go on to tell us what they were discussing.
So were you :
1. Eavesdropping?
2. Actually at a dinner for three - including you?
3. Guessing at what was said?
Pray tell us Nick.
===================================================
How could you doubt the integrity of the intrepid Nick Robinson?
Of course he was there! He posed as a replica of Michelangelo's "Statue of David" and heard the whole conversation.
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131#
Here you go Grandy, look it up yourself. Chapter 7, 2005 Labour Manifesto.
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
"We will put it to the British people in a referendum and campaign wholeheartedly for a yes vote to keep Britain a leading nation in Europe"
Evidence duly supplied.
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139#
But she was the Europe minister Saga.... you might think that it just maybe fell within her portfolio. Maybe.
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grief @ 127
"The great unwashed are unable to correctly judge such things,aren't they?"
I'd rather not express it quite like that; that sounds a bit snooty and elitist, which I'm most certainly not ... had a nice chat with an ordinary person just a couple of weeks ago
no, the thing is I don't believe in putting questions directly to the public - only way I'd support that is for something like the design of a new coin, say, or what colour the Queen should wear for Ladies Day at Royal Ascot - fun stuff in other words
for important things, I'd be very nervous of going that route - the Lisbon Treaty for example, the public would vote "No" and that'd be the wrong answer - all it would do is throw a spanner in the works of the EU, and a whole load of time / energy / money would then have to be spent on either asking the question again (a la Ireland) or on getting around it some other way - because we're NOT going to pull out (are we?) and the treaty is NOT going to be rewritten (is it?) so what would be the point? - there'd be nil point, n'est ce pas - both the government and the opposition realise this, hence why neither want a referendum; they know it can only end in tears
this "is the T the same as the old C business?"
of course it is! all the guff about how it's different because of this, that and the other is just that; strictly For The Birds - a smokescreen for Labour to renege on their promise for a referendum - the real reason is that they didn't want to risk a "No" vote - same goes for the Tories
and they've both got it absolutely right
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Att: NR
From: 'Mother'
This week
Acceptable topics:
Tories and EU
Climate change conference
Boris Johnson
Off limits:
Nimrod report
Expenses Legg/Kelly
Royal Mail
Afghanistan & TA
Economy
Immigration
Ofsted and Balls
Economy
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145. At 2:50pm on 29 Oct 2009, Boilerplated wrote:
82. At 12:34pm on 29 Oct 2009, sonofthedesert wrote:
"#10 boilerplated.
Perhaps you're right about Cameron's dithering over the Lisbon Treaty. Maybe he should simply adopt Labour's approach to this issue - lie decisively then renege on your promises when in power."
But neither Blair or Brown lied, they promised a referendum on the constitutional treaty, when that fell there was no point in holding a referendum on a now defunct treaty! But it's so funny now to see the hypocritical political right in the UK suddenly find solace in the idea of referenda when they were staunchly against them when they were in power and ratifying other EU treaties or imposing the Poll Tax etc, then they were all for the right of the elected (Westminster) parliament to decide such matters...
=====================================
Just got a credit card bill in the post, can't be bothered to pay it - I'll just change my name instead.
Also refer to post 144.
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#143 Saga
My dear old fruit, given the history of your postings and rantings over recent threads, I cannot possibly be assured by your bald statements that I personally don't have anything to fear from either the document (the signing of which is highly contorversial)or the act that it embodies, i.e. the formation of a "state" that requires both a "figurehead" president AND a relatively high level foreign secretary type bod. I'm afraid that it causes me to be even more entrenched in my opposition to anything other than a trading partnership, which is what the majority of UK citizens believe the EU should be.
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132#
Maybe not - but it wasnt the Eurosceptics I was on about. It was Nick.
Considering how many things are going on in the UK at the moment and particularly in the Westminster bubble, I reckon there are far more important subjects to discuss than this.
But, he's about as much use as a Political Editor as David James is as an England goalkeeper.... he's just another lobby carrion on just another lobby jolly. Sorry. Dont think he's good enough.
As someone else has pointed out... over the last week or so, the subjects have been Cameron/Griffin/Griffin/Cameron - theres an elected government dying on its a*se, Kelly, the Nimrod Review, breakdown of discipline in the PLP, damaging postal strikes, the Neather scandal, worse than expected economic figures last week - this subject is just another pointless sideshow to draw away attention from whats going on back in Westminster.
A waste of bandwidth and a waste of a blog, not worthy of the man who'se meant to be the senior political correspondant and editor of what is meant to be a highly respected international broadcasting news organisation.
Lazy and feeble. I think I counted one story in the last 3 weeks where his analysis is bang on. The rest of it is just reciting the governments press releases.
There are more important things to talk about.
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#146
don't hold back on my behalf, saga, let us have the full benefit of your condescension.
Meanwhile, you would be well adviswed to adjust your reading glasses, and peruse the interesting post that is number 144.
Now, the majority of the views expressed there run counter to your bald statements earlier. So were you all reading a different document?
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#149 Boiler
Ah yes, Wikipeadia, the on-line fount of knowledge that you can write yourself.
I seem to recall that one of the many education ministers that your governemtn has foisted on us during the past 12 years actually recommended last year that this should be more widely used in schools as a means of teaching students. I think it was a long term government policy, since it took about 3 days before it was "clarified", and what he said wasn't what he meant.
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exiled @ 148
YOU are not the Public (!) you're just a single member of it
when I say the Public is ill equiped to make a decision like this, it's not at all the same as saying that's the case for each and every individual (is it?)
I was just making that point to you in lighthearted manner; hey but I can be condescending if you want me to be!
oh and babe, what's all this "my party" nonsense you keep laying on me?
I'm a Clear Thinking Progressive and we haven't been in power since ancient times (and even that didn't last very long)
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I don't quite grasp this politics lark!
When do we get our ballot papers to decide which candidate we would like for the EU presidency?
I can then sit down and read all the lovely leaflets, and come to my own conclusion of who I prefer.
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pdavies65 154
Your reference to denial of the holocaust insults me by associating my views with marginal far right extremists. It insults concentration camp victims because you are using them as pawns in your nasty little to achieve minor domestic political advantage. It's a shame that you can't apologise for it.
End of, really. I honestly don't believe you should be posting here, if that is the way you want to conduct debate.
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A lot of you left leaners are straining at the leash about the grouping the tories are attaching themselves to in Europe, arent you?
And to think some of the company you guys used to keep as well and the communist ideologies some of your MP's used to subscribe to before they got elected...
You're every bit as bad as they are. You're just better at flinging mud at them than they are.
Shame you cant attack seem to land any punches on the tories on anything of substance though. Its just another boring, distracting round of carping to keep the proles you've dumbed down and sold out from looking too deeply at what a godalmighty hash you've made of governing the UK....
[[[yawn]]]
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30. At 10:58am on 29 Oct 2009, extremesense wrote:
Can anyone remember such an incompetent bunch of people who keep say one thing to get the cheap support and do another or are forced to do another because they simply didn't think before they spoke?
===
Yes, the current LABOUR government.
British jobs for British workers.
U-turn on TA funding.
Just to name two of many, many, many.
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152. At 3:06pm on 29 Oct 2009, jrperry wrote:
goldCaesar 138
I can see you comfortably settling into five thousand different ways of associating Conservative policy with Natzism, as you have clearly been asked to, so I shall refer you to my post 135 and leave it there. You clearly have no interest in conducting an argument at any level above smearing and 'I have no interest in continuing the discussion on those terms.'
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I'd suprised if i've alluded that the conservatives themselves have anything in common with the nazis (apart from dodgy friends) as i honestly don't belive that to be the case.
Their friends in europe clearly do share nazi traits - homophobia and anti-semitism to mention the 2 most well documented.
'I have no interest in continuing the discussion on those terms.'
What discussion? all youv'e achieved today is a series of childish, unqualified, denials about the widely documented activities of David Camerons closest european allies and a string of implications that i'm some how connected with the labour party.
Many years ago, in my idealistic teenage years i used to indulge in a spot hunt saboteuring (insert 'unwashedn hippy' insult here.)
Many of the people participating in the fox hunt whether riders or followers honestly beleived that we were only there because we got £5 per day and a free packed luch from the labour party (which was of course rubbish).
Those people just couldn't get their heads round the fact that someone could be motivated by compassion, empathy or humanity, it all had to be a political conspiracy - it was the only motivation they could understand.
You remind me of those people.
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Your arrogance astounds me Sagamix.....you know better than the populous. Isn't Steven Hawking a member of the public or Richard Dannett?
So even when the public/electorate vote out Brown they will be wrong? Or were they wrong when they voted in Blair?
You can't be selective with the voting public.
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It is totally ridiculous to say the Lisbon Treaty is not the same document as offered before as the Constitution. I believe the guy who wrote it Valery Gisgard d'Estaing, may have spelt it wrong but still, says it is the same as before.
Labour promised us a vote on constitutional matters relating to the EU in their manifesto. Furthermore it proves that democracy is dead in the EU when they do not like the first answer by the public and re-cycle it with no vote allowed except in Ireland the second time.
Also I have read much of the Lisbon Treaty, so saga I do not believe you have, because no one could come away and not believe it takes many powers away from our democracy. Furthermore this vote on the treaty could be presented to the people of Britain for a vote quite easily with the main points listed. It is pure arrogance on behalf of the Labour party to say the public would not understand. What right have these politicians to say such things. Half of the Labour Party were just members of the public once.
Labour Politicians should be ashamed to admit they have not read the Treaty. Something this important they should know and understand. It gives you some idea of the calibre of those we have in Government.
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Nick Robinson:
I am honestly thinking that the British Relationship with
Europe will be changing...And, in most cases evolving to make
for a more concurrent relationship and improve ties between
the parties...
=Dennis Junior=
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71. At 12:22pm on 29 Oct 2009, Boilerplated wrote:
56. At 11:53am on 29 Oct 2009, Exiledscot52 wrote:
"Saga why beat up Cameron about a referendum....Didnt your beloved Labour party promise on and then said no we know best?
How do you square that circle?"
Err, no he didn't, you are obviously another who doesn't actually understand the difference between the (abandoned) constitutional treaty and the current Lisbon Treaty - only Cameron has pledge referendum on that, knowing full well that it would (have) take(n) a miracle if the treaty wasn't in operation by the time he got his hands on the keys for No.10.
===
Please enlighten me as to the significant differences between the constitutional treaty and the Lisbon treaty.
Thank you.
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158. At 3:17pm on 29 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
grief @ 127
"The great unwashed are unable to correctly judge such things,aren't they?".....
.......of course it is! all the guff about how it's different because of this, that and the other is just that; strictly For The Birds - a smokescreen for Labour to renege on their promise for a referendum - the real reason is that they didn't want to risk a "No" vote - same goes for the Tories
and they've both got it absolutely right
*********************************
Yes, but just for once, wouldn't it be nice if the Government actually did something that the majority of the people they represent wanted them to do.
It's not rocket science. It doesn't take massive amounts of brain-power. It does however need a simple change of philosphy and a small swallowing of pride.
It may not suit the 'Party Line'. It may cost them a fur lined, gravy trained future. BUT they would obtain great karma from knowing they had done the 'Right Thing'. They could walk the streets with their heads held high. They might even be forgiven for making the odd 'unwitting' error on their expense claim form. The public might - although it's a big might - even start to believe in their honesty again.
It might even get them some votes.
Such a shame it won't happen.
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#166
Ah, Invisible, you, like the rest of us, are deluded in thinking that the politicians actually care what we think, and actually want to let us have any say in this, or any other, important matter.
Personally, I think it should be compulsory that every member state has a primary in which they can select their candidate, and then all the candidates can have a number of election contests. None of this silly transferable vote business, an old fashioned "last one in the poll goes out" contest. Logically, to allow for all the votes to be verified and counted, this would be a long drawn out process, with weekly votes and weekly counts (think of the benefits of employing vote counters, supervisors et al). I envisage that it will take a year for democracy to be fully demsonstarted, but the lucky winner will be secure in the knowledge that he is the least worst candidiate for the job.
I suspect that the appetite for a repeat performance would be diminished, and the post would be allowed to lapse.
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This is an amusing little ditty someone forwarded to me recently, and funny as it might be, it also has a serious point about our relationship with the EU and the insanity that goes with it (which is why I consider it to be on-topic ;) )
Forgive me for being presumptuous but I just thought this very serious thread required a little sunshine. And I'm very curious as to whether it received a reply... :
Rt Hon David Miliband MP
Secretary of State.
Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA),
Nobel House
17 Smith Square
London
SW1P 3JR
16 July 2009
Dear Secretary of State,
My friend, who is in farming at the moment, recently received a cheque for £3,000 from the Rural Payments Agency for not rearing pigs.. I would now like to join the "not rearing pigs" business.
In your opinion, what is the best kind of farm not to rear pigs on, and which is the best breed of pigs not to rear? I want to be sure I approach this endeavour in keeping with all government policies, as dictated by the EU under the Common Agricultural Policy.
I would prefer not to rear bacon pigs, but if this is not the type you want not rearing, I will just as gladly not rear porkers. Are there any advantages in not rearing rare breeds such as Saddlebacks or Gloucester Old Spots, or are there too many people already not rearing these?
As I see it, the hardest pan of this programme will be keeping an accurate record of how many pigs I haven't reared. Are there any Government or Local Authority courses on this?
My friend is very satisfied with this business. He has been rearing pigs for forty years or so, and the best he ever made on them was £1,422 in 1968. That is - until this year, when he received a cheque for not rearing any.
If I get £3,000 for not rearing 50 pigs, will I get £6,000 for not rearing 100? I plan to operate on a small scale at first, holding myself down to about 4,000 pigs not raised, which will mean about £240,000 for the first year. As I become more expert in not rearing pigs, I plan to be more ambitious, perhaps increasing to, say, 40,000 pigs not reared in my second year, for which I should expect about £2.4 million from your department. Incidentally, I wonder if I would be eligible to receive tradable carbon credits for all these pigs not producing harmful and polluting methane gases?
Another point: These pigs that I plan not to rear will not eat 2,000 tonnes of cereals. I understand that you also pay farmers for not growing crops. Will I qualify for payments for not growing cereals to not feed the pigs I don't rear?
I am also considering the "not milking cows" business, so please send any information you have on that too. Please could you also include the current Defra advice on set aside fields? Can this be done on an e-commerce basis with virtual fields (of which I seem to have several thousand hectares)?
In view of the above you will realise that I will be totally unemployed, and will therefore qualify for unemployment benefits. I shall of course be voting for your party at the next general election.
Yours faithfully,
Nigel Johnson-Hill
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Grandantidote 131
I have learnt from experience not to get involved with posters who are so blindly following a party they will say anything to make things fit.
I was not talking about the public when I said everyone, that was your interpretation, I was talking about the people who count including the man who actually wrote the Treaty. They all agree it is exactly the same as first presented and then rejected. Therefore the public is entitled to a vote on this issue as promised by Labour.
Your assertion that the members of the public are so stupid they will not understand even when the main points are presented in a simple way, makes me understand why you are a Labour supporter.
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saga..
"no, the thing is I don't believe in putting questions directly to the public - only way I'd support that is for something like the design of a new coin, say, or what colour the Queen should wear for Ladies Day at Royal Ascot - fun stuff in other words
for important things, I'd be very nervous of going that route - the Lisbon Treaty for example, the public would vote "No" and that'd be the wrong answer "
Of course I could ask what right you have to say that a public 'NO' on Lisbon would be the wrong answer..that is,after all, only your opinion.But,hey,it's only democracy at work here..nothing important.
Or did you mean that the correct answer is to 'do an Ireland'?
Or I could say that referenda are only permissible for 'important' matters..not the Queens' Ascot hat.
But I won't.
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gold caesar...re fox hunting
"Those people just couldn't get their heads round the fact that someone could be motivated by compassion, empathy or humanity, it all had to be a political conspiracy -"
Errrr...wasn't the fox hunting thing just that..political? If it wasn't,why is hunting with hounds flourishing,with little enforcment of the Law by the Police?
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Nick's dream blog would surely be something on the lines of:
'At a dinner in Burnley last night, Cameron and Griffin sat down to discuss the price of corned beef as well as the increasing concern about why every washing machine load generates at least one odd sock'
Come on Nick. You can do better than this.
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jrperry 167
Why do you assume I am trying to achieve "minor domestic political advantage"? I am far more concerned that people do not try to sanitize the unpleasant views of some right-wing European groups or dismiss accounts of them as leftist propaganda. The Latvian situation is more complex than ConHome describes. Incidentally, I am only here to type this because my mother and her family managed to escape the gas chambers in Poland. Had my forebears been Latvian, they would have all perished because the Latvians did a more enthusiastically thorough job than even the Poles.
I am sure you are not personally a Holocaust denier and I am sorry that I made that allegation, it was below the belt and foolish.
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168. At 3:39pm on 29 Oct 2009, Fubar_Saunders wrote:
A lot of you left leaners are straining at the leash about the grouping the tories are attaching themselves to in Europe, arent you?
And to think some of the company you guys used to keep as well and the communist ideologies some of your MP's used to subscribe to before they got elected...
You're every bit as bad as they are. You're just better at flinging mud at them than they are.
Shame you cant attack seem to land any punches on the tories on anything of substance though. Its just another boring, distracting round of carping to keep the proles you've dumbed down and sold out from looking too deeply at what a godalmighty hash you've made of governing the UK....
[[[yawn]]]
------------
nice act (yawn)
The fact is that through is european associates Cameron has given his opponents an absolute gift.
Some of his new chums are extreemely unplaesant characters and he'd managed to create a running sore on the reputation of the party thats going to lead to tory supporters and party members alike trying to defend the indendefensible for the forseeable future.
Your comment doesn't even attempt to justify Cameron's position, wich rather puts the lie to 'Shame you cant attack seem to land any punches on the tories'. A refusal too talk about a subject rarely qualifies as a wining argument outside the playground.
You think these questions about Camerons Nationalist friends are annoying & needling now, how are going to feel after months of the same questions?
Cheers for the early christmas present Dave.
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8. At 1:02pm on 29 Oct 2009, grandantidote wrote:
48 Susan Croft
#The last time I looked the people of this Country wanted a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and a no vote would be the most likely outcome, they were promised this by the Labour Government.
------------------------------------
Two points what evidence can you possibly have that the people of this country wanted a referendum, at a guess I would say that 50% of the population wouldn't have a clue what they were voting for anyway,unless they allowed themselves to be swayed by the very powerful Tory press ie the Sun,The Telegrapth and the Daily Mail, if you suggest that I am denigrating the British people, can you honestly say that you have read the Lisbon treaty chapter and verse? if you have then your one of the very few that have, and if you haven't what on earth would you or any other pro-referendum people on these blogs be voting for or against.
===
That would include Caroline Flint, ex-Minister for Europe and Window Dressing, who admitted she had not done her job properly and read the Lisbon Treaty.
On that basis you are being too hard on the public if a LABOUR cabinet member whose job it is hasn't even read the treaty in full.
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We are the English & we have not yet had our say.
The arrogance & corruption & democracy shy nature of the EU should be ringing alarm bells with every libertarian.
I remind readers here of all the other European political movements & ideologies that wanted to unify Europe without a democratic mandate:
* Facsism
* National Socialism
* Socialism
* Communism
The European Union superstate, with its self amending "Lisbon Treaty" will prove to be a bigger threat to peace on the European continent & indeed the world than all of the above put together.
I am resigned to the fate of fighting for Englands freedom from EU tyranny in the not to distant future - what choice do I & millions of other English people have other than to prepare to fight for my countries independence & sovereignty?
We have been denied democracy - the ballot box _ & we have systematically been lied to by the British political elite for many decades.
No democracy? No ballot box? = No peace.
(There, I have just broken the terrorism act - & no doubt under the Lisbon Treaty committed treason against my Brussels masters. Well come & get me - I am ready to fight EU neo fascism as my grandfather did in 1939.)
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Surely Sarkozy and Merkel should ignore Cameron's policies unless he actually gets into power. After all, Merkel was very cautious in getting involved in Obama's tour in Germany during his election campaign.
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131 GA
"but you would like these people to decide on the long term future of our country."
=================================
And why not? It is there country after all.
Perhaps you would rather we left all decisions to the government and accepted them unquestioningly. Its not like they are making such a great job of it.
I see another former minister is having to apologise and pay back money as a result of this informed judgement you hint at.
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#177 dj
That's very good, but will probably go right over the heads of the labour drudges who seem to be hanging riound here.
Personally I'd like to see El Gordo and his mates NOT taking all the "right" decsions for us and acting in our best long term interests. But since he's already taken all my money, I can't offer him any further financial inducement. Do you think he'd stop doing it if I promised to vote for him next year?
I hope he says yes, because then, on election day, I can reveal the fine print that I have kept carefully hidden till that point.......
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131. At 2:26pm on 29 Oct 2009, grandantidote wrote:
102 Susan croft
....If you have faith in the decision of the great British public then pop into your local Spar and just casualy ask one or two whats there
opinion on the Lisbon treaty,I did just that, I asked a middle aged lady what she thought, her reply was I've heard about it but I don't know anything about it, I don't bother myself with these things. I then asked a young mother with a child she replied,Whats a Lisbon treaty, when I tried to explain to her she replied oh! I thought you were talking about some new pizza,I don't no nothing about it, the rest of the afternoon produced basicaly the same results, but you would like these people to decide on the long term future of our country.
===
I'm surprised you weren't arrested!
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#115 jrperry
It has nothing to do with the health service budget and you should know it.
It has everything to do with the flagship Tory councils that Cameron loves so much charging those in need for homecare and other essential services whilst slashing council tax.
So, in answer to your question, no it's not a dishonest smear of Conservative policy, it's simply a fact regarding Conservative party poicy in action.
Do you actually know anything about your beloved Tories or do you just stick to party pamphlets like the Telegraph? I suspect that you are the one caught-up in fantasy.
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exiled @ 171
"You can't be selective with the voting public"
of course you can! - I'm just not a big fan of deciding things by referendum; plenty of people feel the same (the Tory colossus that is Ken Clarke, for example?) - we have a representative democracy which gives the opportunity to change both national and local government on a fairly regular basis - I'm cool with that - if (when?) Labour are kicked out next spring, well fine - the Great British Public has spoken in the tried and tested manner - where's the arrogance? - you saying people who don't like referenda are per se arrogant? don't be silly! (after all, if the Public don't get to vote on something neither do clear thinking progressives such as myself)
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pdavies 182
I do not know what your point is really, the Conservatives are only making an alliance in the EU with those that will help them to fight against a federal EU. This is something I would have thought you would support if you do not want to see Holocaust victims die for no reason. A federal Europe was Hitlers dream too along with a single ruler, welcome President Blair. It seems Hilters dream is coming true. He would not have given us a vote either.
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131. At 2:26pm on 29 Oct 2009, grandantidote wrote:
.....If you have faith in the decision of the great British public then pop into your local Spar and just casualy ask one or two whats there
opinion on the Lisbon treaty,I did just that, I asked a middle aged lady what she thought, her reply was I've heard about it but I don't know anything about it,.......
===
Her name wasn't Caroline Flint was it, by any chance?
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@177 djlazarus
lol, that's possibly the best way to highlight the stupidity that is the EU
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U @ 163
"Now, the majority of the views expressed there (144) run counter to your bald statements earlier. So were you reading a different document?"
but pls refer my 158 where (based on my actual reading of both the actual Constitution and the actual Treaty) I confirm that they are indeed pretty much the same thing
ha!
so where does that leave you now?
exactly
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Hey Saga, keep going in the face of all this criticism. You are holding to the Party Line magnificently.
The Politburo are very proud of you, and you will get your reward when El Tone is EU ennobled.
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#145 boilerplated
You can hide behind the semantics of whether or not the Lisbon Treaty is the same as the previous European Constitution but it is fundamentally dishonest to claim that they are not essentially the same. If you need any evidence of how our European partners regard the Treaty read post 144.
Contrary to your assumption I would not consider myself to be right-wing, was not in favour of the poll tax, and have never voted Tory. I would even regard myself as pro-european. However, I am a democrat and think that it is simply wrong to impose a governmental/legislative system (as opposed to a law or tax measure which can be easily repealed) without popular consent. Any Treaty which inter alia creates a President with power (yet to be defined) over many millions of people should have popular consent. All the evidence suggests that the Lisbon Treaty does not have this and therefore lacks legitimacy.
Regardless of what has been promised in the past or whether a few minor amendments changes a Constitution to a Treaty is it too much to ask that the people be allowed their say? It's really quite simple - if the people of the UK want us to sign up to the Lisbon Treaty then they will vote for it, if not they will vote against it. Why not ask the question?
Bottom line - does boilerplated believe the government should sign up to the Lisbon Treaty even if the majority of voters in this country are against it?
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#60 valdan70 wrote:
"If you look at the recent past, I am sure you will agree that it was thanks to Gordon Brown there was a unified European approach to quantitative easing and supporting EEC economies."
Having just returned to the internet and started reading from post #1 onwards your comment was the first that convinced me to sign-on.
There is no unified European approach to QE. Please study the monetary policy of the ECB and contribute further. I see little evidence that Brown shaped EU monetary or fiscal policy. Why would anyone listen to the leader of a country with the weakest fiscal position anyway?
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valdan70 wrote:
"I think you will find it was Tony Blair's idea that there should be a position of President in the EEC"
Reputable source and evidence please. Contributions in the French language allowed.
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#118 jrperry
Yep, the Today Programme said nothing new.
The facts are clear and so is the history so I don't see how you can start claiming some political victory.
The Conservative's bedfellows in Europe hold, in my mind, some very extreme views and David Cameron and William Hague are desperately trying to justify their position.
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zed @ 175
"just for once, wouldn't it be nice if the Government actually did something that the majority of the people they represent wanted them to do"
sure; but not here because the "something" in this instance is pitch us into a right old pickle from which no good can come
you should definitely have a flick through the treaty, Mister Z, because when you do you'll see that it's all eminently sensible stuff - the sort of things that if you were, say, running your local bridge club, and you had 27 members on the committee, the exact sort of R and R you'd be looking to put in place
have a gander and then tell me I'm not right
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DitkosQuestion 183
Well I will talk about it. The fact is it is scaremongering by the Labour party once again trying to whip up anger by discrediting other representatives from other Countries. Countries that perhaps have not had the advantage of being as free as Britain and keeping up with the modern World. Their view however is no less valuable because they do not want to see a federal Europe by the back door. Perhaps they have seen all this before.
Labour should not throw stones because they need to look at some of the dodgey people in their group as well. There are some pretty frightening views there.
All in all the Conservatives are right to pursue any means of distancing ourselves from this potential super state.
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"The EU now has 25 members and will continue to expand.The new
Constitutional Treaty ensures the new Europe can work effectively,
and that Britain keeps control of key national interests like foreign policy, taxation, social security and defence.The Treaty sets out what the EU can do and what it cannot. It strengthens the voice of national parliaments and governments in EU affairs. It is a good treaty for Britain and for the new Europe.We will put it to the British people in a referendum and campaign whole-heartedly for a ‘Yes’ vote to keep Britain
a leading nation in Europe."
Labour Party Manifesto 2005, "Britain Forward Not Back"
"This text is, in fact, a rerun of a great part of the substance of the Constitutional Treaty.
Valery Giscard d’Estaing, Author of the European Constitution
Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly. All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way.
Valery Giscard d’Estaing, Author of the European Constitution"
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Anybody trying to pretend we were never promised a referendum on a constitutional treaty is merely playing semantics, and is in denial of the facts.
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My highlight of the day was the question asked by Laura of David Milliband at the joint news conference with Brown in Brussels today.
She asked him if he was prepared to apologise for calling the Polish MEP Michael Kaminski anti semitic when he clearly is not.
For a so called foreign secretary this was a very dangerous path to tread and if diplomacy is part of his remit then he should resign.
Who knows what damage this may have caused with the Polish people who did elect Kaminski into the EU. Wars were started for less.
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Just watched Browns press conference. Never seen him so Pro-Blair since John Smith died.Normally when press get on a subject he dosn't want to talk about he gets agitated. Today he really wanted to talk-up Blair and
not interested in Climate change etc..the reason for the conference.
No one picked up on his comment that Blair had great experience in economic matters. What experience? Brown was supposed to be running the economy when Blair Prime Minister or WAS HE? Brown MUST know it is the British Public who don't want Blair as Euro President, more so than Cameron. It was though he signing his electoral death warrant and smileing while he di it.
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fubar @ 157
"But she was the Europe minister, Saga"
indeed, but I think it's pretty much accepted that she was what she herself said she was; Window Dressing
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If Cameron wants to be the next PM then he had better make sure we get a referendum . The idea that a couple of puppets from France and Germany can map our future is unthinkable ; maybe Brown can go along with this, but surely Cameron's party will not allow this to happen. A vote for UKIP or the BNP is looking more and more attractive.
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Could someone tell me why it is easier to organise an election for the Afghanistan President, but apparently impossible to do so in Europe?
Obviously we cannot be trusted as we are all illiterate and suffer from a lack of education compared to the Afghans. Is this the message that the political elite in Europe are sending out? It is certainly the message that I am receiving.
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#71 boilerplated wrote:
"you are obviously another who doesn't actually understand the difference between the (abandoned) constitutional treaty and the current Lisbon Treaty".
I seem to remember we, and others, discussed this at length a few weeks ago. A reasonable voter, or juror, would have been quite correct to believe that the 2005 Labour manifesto (available on search engines)quite clearly promised a referendum on any new EU constitution. Your attempt to differentiate the two is political sophistry. "Let battle be joined" as Blair said, except that he and his fellow-travellers ran away at the first sound of grapeshot.
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euforever @ 196
"You are holding to the Party Line magnificently"
que? the CTP yes, but the Labour Party?
I hardly think so!
the LP "line" is that the Treaty is materially different to the Constitution and I'm happy to blow that away (pls see 158)
no, the reason they aren't having the Ref is because the Public would make a balls up and vote "No"
they're doing the right thing but the "reason" is a nonsense ... the Error was promising a Ref in the first place
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Susan-Croft 192
Yeah, you're right, getting Tony Blair as EU president would be pretty much the same as Hitler having won WWII. I'd never seen it like that before!
You Anti-Europe lot are running rings round us lefties in this debate!! I'd say it's due to your superior intellect and knowledge of history.
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134. At 2:32pm on 29 Oct 2009, Boilerplated wrote:
80. At 12:32pm on 29 Oct 2009, UK-SILENT-MAJORITY wrote:
"The EU is without doubt a clear symbol of an un-democratic system run by politicans who have no interest in anything other than themselves.
British democracy has been killed a Labour government."
If that is true then it was the Tories that signed up to the creation of the EU, not Labour, I think that you will find that Major signed the Maastricht Treaty in '92/93...
Again the euroseptics can't get their fact correct! :-(
I don't care what happened 20-30 years ago, what i care about is "NOW" and bless me yet another Labour stooge tries to deflect current Labour government affairs with history.
What don't some of these people understand.
I unlike people such as Boilerplated don't give a damn about any political party, i do give a damn about our country.
The fact is that Brown lied to the electorate when Labour promised a referendum on the Treaty................
I can also understand Boilerplated feelings about the EURO, we have had unelected unaccountable ministers in the UK government for 12 years so you fit in well with the way Brussels is run.
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SC @ 192
"A federal Europe was Hitler's dream too, along with a single ruler. Welcome President Blair. It seems Hitler's dream is coming true."
a little "Fruity" Susan!
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GB has spoken ....."We, Britain, are supporting Tony Blair's candidature," he added, which he said would be in the "British national interest".
GB now speaks for the whole of Britain !!!!!! some mistake surely ????
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#86. At 12:41pm on 29 Oct 2009, Exiledscot52 wrote:
"Perhaps the problem is not the name of the treaty which was to be voted on but that a treaty to bring closer integration was ratified without recourse to the electorate."
Err, perhaps the real problem is that the euroseptics never actually bother with fact, after all the facts rather blow their arguments out of the water (such as wanting a referendum on a defunct treaty!), preferring to repeat the well used lies published in the anti EU and euroseptic media, especially the that owned by non EU citizens...
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overlord @ 185
"We are the English & we have not yet had our say!"
catchy!
I can almost hear that now, ringing around the terraces
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#08 grandantidote wrote:
"Labour at no time promised a referendum on the Lisbon treaty"
The 2005 Labour manifesto said
"It [the constitutional treaty] is a good treaty for Britain and the new Europe. We will put it to the British people in a referendum and campaign whole heartedly for a ‘Yes’ vote."
Labour (and the LibDems) promised a referendum on the new constitution. The EU constitution was re-packaged as the Lisbon Treaty. I find it pathetic that two of the three major UK parties rely on an obscure textual analyis to deny a referendum. The political meaning of the manifesto was completely clear.
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#211 But at least Hitler won a National election in Germany before he gained power as a legitimate leader of the German people.
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Oh how the left wing love a European debate; let's face it they are history as far as British politics are concerned.
Now the unelected prime minister throws his kiss of death support behind Tony Blair I think we can all stop worrying about Blair ever becoming president of Europe.
What a farce; twelve years of wasted opportunities and self righteous hubris about progressive politics.
They promised greater transparency and they gave it to us in the form of a party without policies, direction, authority or an elected leader.
Call an election.
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94. At 12:55pm on 29 Oct 2009, pdavies65 wrote:
UK-Silent-Majority
Not that silent then.
I do hope you are not claiming, by your username, to represent anybody's views but your own. That would be rather arrogant.
And it appears you either cannot type 'Blair' or are labouring under a misapprehension about your sense of humour ...
My, don't we have a lot of Labour stooges on here today.
No sense of humour where Bliar is concerned...............if the name fits then he should wear it and Mr Bliar would know all about that.
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#191 saga
Winston Churhill said, "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Yep, I'm with you Ken Clarke and Winston best not involve 'the public' every time a decision needs to be made.
NB - Richard Dannatt, isn't he that eccentric christian soldier the Tories have just signed-up?
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#142 steve_london wrote:
"It's worrying that so many Eurocrats and Europhiles wilfully forget the well known principles of democracy, “Governed by consent”, “The will of the people”, “Mandate”, in their head long dash for superstate status and all the grandeur that they imagine this will bring."
Absolutely correct. A voice of sanity. There is a fundamental democratic defict at the heart of the EU, but few Europhiles are prepared to discuss it.
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178 Susan Croft
#I have learnt from experience not to get involved with posters who are so blindly following a party they will say anything to make things fit.
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Well I guess that covers most of the posters on here . Its also a cop out to avoid answering a post, you can make that argument fit
practically any post.
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#I was not talking about the public when I said everyone, that was your interpretation, I was talking about the people who count including the man who actually wrote the Treaty.
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If that was what you meant then why did you say everyone, everyone is not one man, how else would you expect the term everyone to mean anything other than everyone or ie the general public.
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#Your assertion that the members of the public are so stupid they will not understand even when the main points are presented in a simple way, makes me understand why you are a Labour supporter.
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what I said was that many of the public are not in the slightest bit interested in the Lisbon treaty, stupid is your words not mine, and what connection that has with me being a labour supporter only you can say,
It was after all you in your first remark that said "I was not talking about the public when I said everyone, that was your interpretation, I was talking about the people who count"
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95. At 12:55pm on 29 Oct 2009, dontneedthegrief wrote:
"Can't be bothered to wait for your response Boiler...
Here's a little help on Lisbon.. ..//endless lies not quoted//..
More like Jackanory...
Stop citing what you have read in the euroseptic press, try actually reading the actual treaties, what you quoted was more in keeping with the old (defunct) constitutional treaty, not the Lisbon treaty, as you would know ad you actually read (and understood) it.
If I'm wrong please cite your source for the list you posted.
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just stop and think for a second; if we have a Referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, that means the 22 per cent of the population (!) who say they either will, or are quite likely to, vote for the BNP in the next Election will all have the opportunity to put their pox in the box - okay, a few of them will have the flu (or something) on the Big Day but still ...
no thank you
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193 yellow belly
#Her name wasn't Caroline Flint was it, by any chance?
No it wasn't Caroline she's hardly middle aged, but at least she was honest even if a bit self destrutive,
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214. At 5:17pm on 29 Oct 2009, roylejohnw wrote:
GB has spoken ....."We, Britain, are supporting Tony Blair's candidature," he added, which he said would be in the "British national interest".
GB now speaks for the whole of Britain !!!!!! some mistake surely ????
===
Is this the same Gordon Brown who said to Tony Blair:
"There is nothing that you could say to me now that I could ever believe."?
What a great character reference!
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extremesense
190
Totally with you on that; the increasing use of market based systems to regulate and decide who provides and who gets care are extremely concerning; and although it is being carried out by tory local authorities - most local services are - the Labour government has gone completely along with a free market agenda in care.
I am not sure when we are going to realise the market mechanism has it's limitations. Yesterdays announcement on the confusion caused by the contracting out and procurement of servicing in the RAF case will not lead to any rethinking.
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214 Roylejohnw
Seeing Brown was like watching a wound up cheshire cat. How many times did he say 'we' support Blair before the winder ran down.
Either he knows if he supports Blair's candidacy the man definately won't get the job or he's on a promise after the next election if he does.
Whatever he obviously sees his future anywhere but here.
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Sorry if this is repeated elsewhere, but with all the other political goings on, McNulty, U turn on the TA, Criminals released early committing murder and mayhem, Nimrod Inquiry etc. etc. why is Nick wanting to discuss things that are yet to happen ? We are in the here and now in this country, Gordon may want to look to the future because it is an unknown and he can paint his pretty picture about a new future. The problem is he had a vision 12 years ago, and look where that has led us to.
When the Czechs have signed up, thats when we can put Cameron on the spot, anything before then is pure conjecture and is deflecting us from what is happening here and now. Mind you, methinks this is what Nicks current subject is trying to achieve? What has Mandy got on Nick?
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211
Thanks - that was funny.
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pdavies65 182
Thankyou for your last sentence.
You wrote:
"The Latvian situation is more complex than ConHome describes."
I am quite sure it is - that would be in the nature of summarising any situation into a single paragraph. But equally, it would be fair to say that the political ideals of their leading party are very badly misrepresented by "the 'For Fatherland and Freedom' party, who every year celebrate the Latvian Waffen SS with a march past of SS veterans", which was what Miliband said, and, surely you would agree, the germ of many a smear, including on this board today?
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189 yellow belly
# I'm surprised you weren't arrested!
I did get one or two strange looks, but like a true socialist, I soldiered on.
The reason for the strange looks was because no one had any real knowledge of what I was talking about when I mentioned the Lisbon treaty.
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202. At 4:56pm on 29 Oct 2009, Susan-Croft wrote:
DitkosQuestion 183
Well I will talk about it. The fact is it is scaremongering by the Labour party once again trying to whip up anger by discrediting other representatives from other Countries. Countries that perhaps have not had the advantage of being as free as Britain and keeping up with the modern World. Their view however is no less valuable because they do not want to see a federal Europe by the back door. Perhaps they have seen all this before.
Labour should not throw stones because they need to look at some of the dodgey people in their group as well. There are some pretty frightening views there.
All in all the Conservatives are right to pursue any means of distancing ourselves from this potential super state.
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I apreciate your reply i will try to address your points as well as my concerns.
It is not just 'scaremongering'
'Scaremongering' would not have caused such respected organisations as Outrage and Stonewall (and whatever your private opinion they are both respected and occasionally influential within westminster) as well as Israeli reprersentatives to pull out of attending the tory party conference. Labour's reach is not so wide or international.
They boycotted the conference because they did not wish to appear alongside representatives from the tories european allies who have been associated with homophobia and anti-semitism.
'Labour should not throw stones because they need to look at some of the dodgey people in their group as well. There are some pretty frightening views there.'
I'm unsure of which particular labour allies you are referring to, possibly some of the outright communist parties?
Whilst i don't agree with the politics of such parties, it does seem that they believe universal equality under the law, which is more than the tories allies.(its difficult for me to defend labour because their domestic record is indefensible and their european record ranges through vacillating to dishonest - but i am pro-eu)
'All in all the Conservatives are right to pursue any means of distancing ourselves from this potential super state.'
I'm sorry, i have to disagree with you there.
'by any and all means' is one of the scariest phrases you can hear in politics, it implies that any course of action, no matter how barbaric or injurous to others is fine in the pursuit of the ultimate goal.
I can't beleive that.
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187 strictly pickled
#I see another former minister is having to apologise and pay back money as a result of this informed judgement you hint at.
Simple don't vote for him, its your choice, but at least you would know why you were voting him out.
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101. At 1:14pm on 29 Oct 2009, virtualstangeorge wrote:
"The Labour party say that Europe is the Tories weak spot. Nick keeps talking about the Tories & Europe.
Any connection?"
Could it actually be that the EU and the UK's position within will be the major point of debate by time of and during the next election, for example there is not a lot of mileage in the Afghanistan war in all reality, economic policy is more about what to cut and not if to cut etc. Also, Brown will be judged on his record, Cameron will be judged on his policy plans, if we do not know what Cameron and Co. stand for on the EU/europe (or what ever) how can anyone judge them - only the most true blue of supporter will vote 'blind'.
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210 saga
with you on that - it is the same thing with the word Constitution crossed out and Treaty written in in crayon. Still a good thing though.
It was weaselly to say we would have referendum and then not - But for me the point is if the right want to say the government were wrong not to have a referendum then the same applies if David Cameron is the PM and does not.
I think it would be good if we did have an open discussion with the merits and otherwise argued out in public and have a vote, so we could shut the nutters up and finally take our place in Europe. If of course they won then at least we could watch as they back track in not leaving the EU.
Call a referendum!
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The debate as to whether Labour and the LibDems offered a referendum on EU constitutional change reminds me of another Labour subterfuge.
Labour's manifesto promised no increase in the rate of income tax. To get round this Labour increased NI contributions (a tax on income) instead.
I remember Ken Livingstone arguing that this kind of verbal deceit undermined Labour's wish to use taxation for what he called progressive purposes. If I was a europhile I would be concerned that these various lingustic tricks are undermining British support for ever-closer European union.
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To Breakfast Maker #130
I would like to ‘pick up’ on Norway and Switzerland as you suggest. I don’t think that the fact that there are European countries outside the EU proves that they are better off outside the EU.
I don’t know much about Norway, but I have lived in Switzerland, and things there are not always as great as people think.
First of all the Swiss economy is actually being hurt by being outside of the EU. For example: the Swiss produce excellent wines, but you never see them outside Switzerland. That has a lot to do with the EU support for the French, Italian and even British wine industry that the Swiss don’t get.
Secondly, Switzerland has practically no say in global affairs. It is a member of the UN, but it has about as much influence there as Zambia. Whilst the views of even the smaller EU members are represented in forums like the G20, Switzerland is always on its own.
And finally, Switzerland is not as sovereign as it seems. In practice it has much of its policies imposed upon it by the EU. The Swiss banking sector has had to give up much of its famous secrecy due to pressure from the EU. But unlike much smaller countries like Luxembourg, Switzerland does not have a vote in EU policies.
For all those reasons successive Swiss governments have been keen on joining the EU. It is only because of the result of various referendums that they have not joined, and you can argue that all those no voters have shot themselves in the foot.
So, short of joining the EU, the Swiss have crept up as closelyto it as they can. A bilateral treaty effectively (although not officially) makes it part of the European Economic Area. Most EU regulations are extended to Switzerland. It has even joined the Schengen agreement which abolishes border controls.
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102. At 1:25pm on 29 Oct 2009, Susan-Croft wrote:
"Yes they did promise a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty everyone agrees on that issue, so there is not much point in going backwards.
Care to cite that, or are you just going to wriggle and squirm about the Lisbon Treaty being the same as the (defunct) constitutional treaty - which is what the promise of a referendum was for.
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204 VSL
If you knew anything about David Millibands family history you would know why he is so angry. I think it is really good that he is standing up for something he feels rather than thinks. It might be the making of him! Politics based on belief rather than political calculation isn't that what we have all been craving?
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Unfortunately,one of the drawbacks of blogs like this is that it is difficult to have a real debate on issues that matter.
Take the subject matter today.
Some people loudly protest that the EU Constitution and Lisbon are entirely different beasts,and use that argument to justify the denial to a promised referendum.However,when challenged to explain the 'differences',those people often disappear into the ether,or simply ignore the question.
It's the anonymity of the web,I suppose...precisely suited to the kind of people that love to make unsubstantiated comments.
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103. At 1:25pm on 29 Oct 2009, sweetAnybody wrote:
"I think Daves best approach to the EU would be on the first month the Conservatives come to power to simply stop sending the cheques.
Then if they keep phoning, he should dump them - by text."
Cameron has promised that he will never allow the UK to default of it's debts (talking about the national debt), now you are suggesting that he should break his promise. Anyway, taking your approach and the UK credit rating will fall through the floor - but then perhaps that's your cunning plan, default on our debts and then ask the USA to bail us out like after WW2...
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220 uk silent majority
what a wally!!!!!!!!
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201. At 4:54pm on 29 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
zed @ 175
"just for once, wouldn't it be nice if the Government actually did something that the majority of the people they represent wanted them to do"
you should definitely have a flick through the treaty, Mister Z, because when you do you'll see that it's all eminently sensible stuff -
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Saga. I have actually read both the EU Constitution and the Lisbon Treaty, and the reason I read them was because I was expecting to get a vote on the subject.
Unlike many MPs, if I'm going to make a Yes/No judgement on something that could seriously affect the future of my Country, I need to know what I'm voting for.
Having read them I can only agree with what a lot of the European leaders said, which was that they are the SAME DOCUMENT in that Lisbon does NOT take out any of the important points of the Constitution.
Hence my original post. As a CTP - that's Common Touch Person by the way - I would like Government to get in touch with its human side and react to what people want, not what they think people should have.
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From what I can make out, every country apart from the uk is now out of recession, our unemployment is still rising hugely, our government debt is at national bankruptcy level yet we're still as a country increasing that debt at a massive pace, our unelected PM is trying to get the guy he ousted in a coup put into the eu presidency post out of pure spite to the tories, our unelected PM never even bothered to show up when signing the treaty and just signed it in a backroom when nobody else was there, but, hey, Nick, yes, lets just try and pretend that the tories are all in disarray over europe and ignore everything else that the currently active government is doing to destroy the country.
Sorry Nick/Beeb; it's not going to work. You can pretend there's disarray in the tory party in order to try and get more labour votes, but it won't work, because nobody believes your spin on this. There's a healthy practical debate in the tory party about europe, if there wasn't healthy practical debate about matters as important as that then they wouldn't be fit to govern.
Stop spinning the "tories in disarray; europe rows will destroy their election chances" labour line, Nick; it won't wash.
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Seen from outside the UK, the euroscepticism of the Conservatives as expressed by Hague and Cameron seems rather pathetic. It seems to me that constructive engagement is far more likely to bring results to Britain's advantage than flouncing off into an isolationist corner - the UKIP position seems based on a misconception of Britain's position in the world. No one is taking the slightest notice of the UK other than in an EU context. The Americans' attitude to Britain is benign indifference - the 'special relationship', as loved by the Atlantic-orientated Brits, is a sad and embarrassing delusion.
Get in there, take part more full-heartedly, and you will have many of the nations of Europe on your side.
Associate yourselves with the ghastly Farage and Griffin and Britain will lose even the support of its natural allies in Europe.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
ecb @ 218
"But at least Hitler won a National election in Germany in order to gain power"
very true, all you ardent supporters of the BNP's "right" to fight an Election please note
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239. At 6:01pm on 29 Oct 2009, Freakontheguitar wrote:
Most EU regulations are extended to Switzerland. It has even joined the Schengen agreement which abolishes border controls.
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Perversely the UK has abandoned border controls without joining Schengen.
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Boiler @224..
"what you quoted was more in keeping with the old (defunct) constitutional treaty, not the Lisbon treaty,"
Thanks,Boiler.
It is actually a summary of the Lisbon Treaty main points..NOT the 'old (defunct)' EU Constitution treaty.
So they ARE virtually the same then...very nicely scuppered your own argument there,old boy.
Source:Prof Anthony Coughlan.
No doubt you will now do a bit of Googling and come back to say he's a eurosceptic..all very predictable.
Yawn
Thanks for helping my point though..very kind of you.
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241 Balancedthought
Why do you assume that I do not know the background of Milliband.
Of course I do but I'm too diplomatic to make it the issue. The issue is that if you are a diplomat then you have to be mature enough to put such matters into the background or else they become an issue which can distort proper judgement.
I suggest you change your username.
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130. At 2:25pm on 29 Oct 2009, Breakfast-Maker wrote:
"Why does nobody ever pick up on the experience of Norway and Switzerland, both countries surrounded by the EU yet not subject to paying in vast sums and totally sovereign.
Ever had difficulty travelling to, or trading with either of them? Thought not. So next time some euro apologist cretin bangs on about how vital our membership is, just say Norway and Switzerland and watch them splutter as there is no arguement."
Before calling others "cretins" perhaps you should check your own head for facts, or are the 'facts' about the above countries besides the reality of having to implement much of the EU legislation to be within the EEA (and in the case of Switzerland, the EFTA), without having any real influence on the creation of such legislation, are you seriously suggesting that little old UK should cut herself adrift preferred trading links with our nearest neighbours, perhaps you are one of the small number of 'revisionists' who still believe that the UK has an empire (or at the very least a Commonwealth) who want to be told to buy our exports?!...
"I have lots of overseas friends but would I want to marry one? ..//.."
Speak for/about yourself, please don't try and reflect your own xenophobia onto others!
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Oh..and Boiler..at least I have quoted sources.
Where's your response to the original question?
To repeat it...please explain to us all,briefly, the exact differences between the old EU Constitutional Treaty and Lisbon.
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Boilerplated 240
No, I explained that even the Guy who wrote the Treaty said it is exactly the same as it was before. Therefore a vote becomes valid for the people of Britain as Labour promised. I leave the squirming to try to get off the hook to you.
Other than that read my posts, I do not make political broadcasts, I leave that to you. I want the best for Britain not a political Party. Prejudice comes through every post you write therefore I do not take your posts seriously nor do others.
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zed @ 245
"Having read them I can only agree with what a lot of the European leaders said, which was that they are the SAME DOCUMENT in that Lisbon does NOT take out any of the important points of the Constitution"
hats off that you've read them; very few have - and yes I agree, not materially different - so do you agree that it's all good stuff? you're annoyed at being denied a chance to vote "YES"?
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thought @ 241
"I think it is really good that Miliband is standing up for something he feels rather than thinks"
didn't used to like DM much, a bit lightweight I've tended to find him, but I've noticed signs of a growing maturity in recent weeks; might not be the most terrible choice for next leader (if we can't have Harriet)
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241#
Wot, like the inherited family house that he lives in, which his party would deny any of the rest of us to be able to do without shafting them for IHT?
How much IHT did he pay, I wonder....
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sense @ 221
"Richard Dannatt, isn't he that eccentric christian soldier the Tories have just signed up?"
that's the cookie!
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Osbourne says he wants to rebalance the economy, increase manufacturing etc..... He won't do that outside the Euro unless he's prepared to devalue the pound.
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142. At 2:48pm on 29 Oct 2009, Steve-London wrote:
"It's worrying that so many Eurocrats and Europhiles wilfully forget the well known principles of democracy, “Governed by consent”,..//.."
Like Thatcher did in the 1980s you mean...
Staying with the UK, didn't either the Conservatives or the UKIP stand in the last (2005) general election, otherwise the UK electorate gave their consent regarding the UK's policy in the EU.
I do wish that the euroseptics would remember that democracy works both ways, there is a certain arrogance about their use of the word "democracy", when the - mostly - right wish to impose or enact what others consider unwanted or unpopular policy they claim that they are acting democratically and that 'these things are dealt with by Westminster government' but when the boot is on the other foot they claim that allowing Westminster to make such decision undemocratic and that the peopel should be asked via referenda...
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To provide some balance Nick,
Can we have a list of all the names in the ring for this presidential job?
I find the whole, "vote TB" from the BBC far from balanced.
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257. At 6:36pm on 29 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
zed @ 245
"Having read them I can only agree with what a lot of the European leaders said, which was that they are the SAME DOCUMENT in that Lisbon does NOT take out any of the important points of the Constitution"
hats off that you've read them; very few have - and yes I agree, not materially different - so do you agree that it's all good stuff? you're annoyed at being denied a chance to vote "YES"?
******************************
Good stuff? Well it's not exactly 'A book at Bedtime' reading.
Annoyed at being denied a vote? Yes, but even more annoyed by how it has been handled. If Gordon had taken a more mature attitude and let the referendum go ahead, I might have possibly voted 'Yes' But his denial of what Lisbon really was - even though other leaders were stating the opposite - caused me and several others I know to start thinking that something was being hidden from us. That may or not be true but it arouses suspicion.
Whereas if he had used a bit of the CTP(Common Touch Person) philosophy and trusted the electorate he might have got the result he wanted.
Even if he didn't he would have known that he could keep coming back until he did.
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252 My ladyfriend of silverness
Why is it that right wing people such as yourself think that having an opinion that is not the same as yours is not balanced? As I mentioned before that is the same as some of David Camerons friends in Europe.
David Milliband you are right has not alluded in public to the fact that he is of Polish Jewish dissent whose family (if they were not murdered) fled the Nazis. You can say that it makes him less than a diplomat. I think it makes him look like a beautiful human being, how could he have not commented? What a betrayal that would have been.
I don't want my politicians to be superficial automatons I want them to be real live human beings. In the grown up world of Europe where (i'm generalising here) I imagine they (are more in touch with there feelings and less retentive) will understand.
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Sorry not with you saga. No not Harriet Harman never never never anything ever. Never. anyone anyone. But lets not fall out.
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248 CM
how did that get in I have tried a number of blogs on that subject and every single one gets struck out it is as if
an injunction has been taken out.
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Sarkozy and Merkel owe Blair and Brown big time for breaking their manifesto promise to give us a referendum. Thus the odds must be very short on a Blair victory with the French and Germans on his side.
If Tony Blair is made President it will play into the hands of those here who are opposed to Europe and the inevitable progress towards a federal state. The shades of opinion have long since gone, and it is now all for it or all against it. Some suggest the latter figure is of the order of 70%, which, while it is probably a bit high given the almost slavish adherence of the Liberal Democrats whatever happens in Brussels is probably within ten percentage points of the truth.
I'm too old for it to make much difference to me, but for my grandchildren it is a pivotal moment. It wouldn't be so bad if Europe was half decent, and we were talking about being united with people who play the game. Good for them for looking after their own interests, but Merkel is only interested in Germany and Sarkozy in France. It's a sham of the first order, and as the only people in the club who play to the rules we are getting screwed. Compliments of the President elect and his pal, the man who saved the world.
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#262 boilerplated:
Re: governing by consent:
1) Thatcher won three general elections.
2) Yes, Labour won the election, but their manifesto promised a referendum on EU constitutional change
3) Inconstistency is a vice that no doubt left and right fall into. I do agree that referenda can be abused (which is why some countries outlaw them), but there are arguments for using them for constitutional change. Labour has done that (devolution) and proposed it (EU constitution). I don't see why you single out eurosceptics for particular disapprobation.
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259 Fubar
Not sure what your point is are you equating how much you can hand down to the mass extermination of 4 million Jews. Not sure where your moral compass is when it comes to equivalence.
I think everyone should pay inheritance tax I know I will have to, its a good thing. If you think he has done something illegal then do tell the authorities.
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233. At 5:53pm on 29 Oct 2009, grandantidote wrote:
189 yellow belly
# I'm surprised you weren't arrested!
I did get one or two strange looks, but like a true socialist, I soldiered on.
===
And that is what I like about you grand, a true socialist.
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183#
I dont have to justify Cameron's position. HE does.
What really raises my blood pressure is the lying, theiving, cheating, smearing, law dodging, do-as-I-say-dont-do-as-I-do New Labour apparatus appears to show a competance for only one thing.
Smear... whilst denying their own party's equally chequered associations in the past.
Europe is full of undesirable characters, every nation has them. But the way you go on about it, you'd think you'd struck oil in the middle of the Thames. A lot of parties in a lot of countries have done a lot of things that they ought to be ashamed of. I'm sure if I go digging deep enough, I could find enough skeletons in the PES closet. But that drags me down to your level.
Considering the amount of things that are going on in the UK right now, all this is irrelevant. I'd have thought our erstwhile IHT dodging, "not jockying for the leadership, honestly" Foreign Secretary, who doesnt even know what the capital of Brazil is would have had more important things to do.
As I'm on record as saying, Im not a tory. Cameron is a manager not a leader. I have no phobia about Europe, jesus, I'm living and working there, being paid in euros. I am not xenophobic or BNP.
The one thing that winds me up to the point of apoplexy is smear and dishonesty and double standards, no matter who does it.
And thats all I'm seeing. Milliband was corrected this morning on Toady, but would he admit it? No. These rats have not the slightest comprehension of the word humility and Milliband had the brass neck to accuse Hague of Ad hominem attacks.
Its that utter brazen chutzpah that makes me so sick I could puke. And yet 27% of the dumbed-down, benefit dependant, boneheads in the ooop North sink estates will STILL vote for them. They'd vote for a damn cowpat if it had a red rosette on it.
I stand by every word of my original post. I see nothing of substance in what Labour are currently breifing. All they're trying to do is make life uncomfortable for the tories and distracting the soporific lobby pack and the thick as pigswill electorate from the scorched earth that they're going to leave them with. All to prop up a megalomaniac who figured he was born to the job, no matter how many times fate kicks him in the spuds to tell him he isnt?
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Ah Saga disagrees with me. Now I know how Denis Healey felt.
Never mind, I'll console myself by heading off to my second home, have a prawn sandwich washed down by a glass of bubbly and then I'll throw the trimmings to the ducks. All thanks to Tony and Gordon's expenses regime.
Saga is either playing devils with everybody, or he is Draper in disguise.
Either way is fine.
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Some of us will vote responsibly if we are given the chance of a referendum. Give us clear, in-depth arguments and analysis. No psin, no playing with words, no mud throwing, no smears, no personal attacks.
Perhaps we can show politicans and tycoon how to behave responsibly and honourably :-)
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264. At 7:03pm on 29 Oct 2009, Zydeco wrote:
...Whereas if he had used a bit of the CTP(Common Touch Person) philosophy and trusted the electorate he might have got the result he wanted.
===
Bottler Brown trusting the electorate?
You're 'aving a larf!
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268 majorrodaheadagain2
"It wouldn't be so bad if Europe was half decent, and we were talking about being united with people who play the game. Good for them for looking after their own interests, but Merkel is only interested in Germany and Sarkozy in France. It's a sham of the first order, and as the only people in the club who play to the rules we are getting screwed."
================================
I remember Sir Humphrey Appleby's explanation of the EEC in "Yes Prime Minister" in the mid 1980s which went something like :
"The British went in to screw the French by splitting them off from the Germans, the French are in to subsidise their inefficient farmers, the Germans are in to cleanse themselves of genocide and apply for re-admission to the human race, and the benelux countriess are in as all of the money which pours into the countries via the adminsrative HQs, and the Greeks were applying to get in in order to create an Olive Mountain and a Retsina Lake."
25 years on, I doubt that much has changed.
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144. At 2:49pm on 29 Oct 2009, Roll_On_2010 wrote:
[ A long list of unreferenced quotes about the EU 'constitution' ]
"Roll_On_2010", I think that you (and some politicians, who should know better...) need to learn the difference between a constitutional document and "A Constitution", just because something is constitutional it doesn't mean that it has a 'federal' element, a constitution is just an agreed set rules (existing and new), so unless it creates a federal element. Even the good old English village WI has a 'constitution', according to your (and other euroseptics) logic that would make the WI a federal entity aiming to take over the English - if not UK - Crown!
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272 Fubar
...And yet 27% of the dumbed-down, benefit dependant, boneheads in the ooop North sink estates will STILL vote for them. They'd vote for a damn cowpat if it had a red rosette on it. ...
is that really how you think of human beings. That explains a lot.
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258 sagaminx
"didn't used to like DM much, a bit lightweight I've tended to find him, but I've noticed signs of a growing maturity in recent weeks"
==================
You mean he's started shaving ??? Or stopped doing his paper round maybe ? I've got stuff in my freezer which is older than him.
I did like John Prescotts comment about him when he first met him - something like "My god, the Mekon's have landed"
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272. At 7:18pm on 29 Oct 2009, Fubar_Saunders wrote:
183#
I dont have to justify Cameron's position. HE does.
-----------
I apologise unreservedly for assuming you were pro-cameron, especially in the light of other comments i've made about jumping to conclusions. I now look a bit daft.
oh well.
I can't agree with you about camerons euro allies though - i think they do reflect directly on both the man & the party as they would with any party who chooses to affiliate themselves with those extreeme views.
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265#
Milliband is just another professional politician who has never done a real days work in his life and who wears his family's background like a t-shirt when it suits him to show the proles that "Look, deep down, I'm just like you", when in reality, he's anything but.
Comments like (in a response to a question about terrorism) "...yes there are circumstances in which it is justifiable and yes there are circumstances in which it is effective, but it is never effective on its own" are hardly befitting the holder of the post of Foreign Secretary.
Still kills people David, but there you go. You can justify it, eh?
Then there was the India debacle in the wake of the Mumbai attacks...
The man is a hoon.
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z @ 264
"Whereas if he had used a bit of the CTP (Common Touch Person) philosophy and trusted the electorate he might have got the result he wanted"
possibly; that's a nice thought anyway
and oi (!) hands off my handle ... it's patented ... don't want a court case on your hands, do you?
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147. At 2:52pm on 29 Oct 2009, sweetAnybody wrote:
"But since when did the words integrity and promise ever mean anything to our current government."
More to the point, when did an ignorant euroseptic ranm5t become anything other than an ignorant rant. Please feel free to cite what, in the Lisbon Treaty, creates a "Constitution for Europe" - that is - it creates a compulsory federal element.
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273 euforever
"Ah Saga disagrees with me. Now I know how Denis Healey felt......
Saga is either playing devils with everybody, or he is Draper in disguise.
Either way is fine."
======================================
Oh no ! You've sussed him out !!!!!!!!!!! Enjoy his posts for what they are but don't take them too seriously, and the blog would be a poorer place without them.
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270#
Dont try that guilt trip stuff on me. I havent asked anyone to vote for me based on my moral compass. I was hoping not to get sucked into this ad hominem crap, but OK, here goes.
Given how dedicated to communism Milliband Snr and his father were, the fact that the grandfather fought in the Bolshevik Red Army in Poland after the end of the 1st World War when he was originally from Brussels (very dedicated communist), alongside the likes of Iron Felix Dzerzhinsky and Stalin, and considering how many more millions that the Soviets under Stalin and others murdered in pogroms, I hardly think that Milliband is in any position to lecture anyone else on their choice of political bedfellows, considering his family's appeasement and sucking upto political murderers going back more than three quarters of a century.
Clear enough for you??
Thats what I mean by selective smearing and do as I say dont do as I do. He uses his family background when it suits him and keeps it under wraps when it doesnt.
Double standards.
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277. Cameronsmortgage
"I think Tony Blair should not be the president of Europe because he will want to have the Palace of Versailles. This would be unfair as it is bigger than my house, which like the Palace of Versailles will have been paid for by the peasants. "
=======================================
I thnk it was Bob Hope who said that he wouldn't run for president as his wife didn't want to move to a smaller house !
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151. At 3:00pm on 29 Oct 2009, Exiledscot52 wrote:
"Another thought for Sagamix...
That was Caroline Flint.....shows a disregard for a front bench spokesperson from your party....."
Why does the names "Atkins" and "Archer" always spring to mind when a Tory supporter tries to use the word "discredited" about any Labour politician, IIRC the last Labour MP to be thrown in jail was John Stonehouse...
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280#
Its how I think of most Labour voters who despite being lied to, ripped off and cheated by them time and time again, will still vote for them, yes.
Just what else do they have to be caught doing, in flagrante for these idiots to see through them?
Satanic Acts with farm animals in the middle of Parliament square whilst tied to an ironing board with an orange in their mouths?
If someone kicks you in the shins for no reason, when you thought they were your friend, if they were meant to be looking out for you, you'd be disappointed.
Labour havent just kicked their core vote in the shins, when they're not maintaining a drip feed of public sector non-jobs and benefit dependancy. They've kicked them in the spuds time and time and time again.
And still they go back for more, still they hand them their babies to kiss.
I'd say that was a pretty good definition of no discernable cerebral activity to be honest.
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Balanced @ 266
fall out? no way!
any case, I fully recognise that Harmania is a rare and quite exotic bug to catch; not sure I'd wish it on you to be honest, BT, it can get in the way of some of the more mundane but necessary parts of life if you know what I mean - one thing's for sure though ... once you've come down with it, that's It, your world is never quite the same again ... you wouldn't want it to be either
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153. At 3:06pm on 29 Oct 2009, Roll_On_2010 wrote:
"Crash Gordon - UK best placed to weather the recession.
Germany, France, Italy and now the USA are out of recession and experiencing growth.
Yet the UK is experiencing a contraction that is hailed as a fragile recovery."
Hmm, don't smirk yet, what with all the talk about possible "W" shaped recessions (the double dip) - especially in the US - it's to soon to claim who had the best approach, it's still quite possible that the UK could have a "U" shaped recession whilst others have the "W" shape to theirs.
Of course, if you are correct and seeing that the Eurozone has been coming out of recession long before even the USA it points to fact that the UK should have been (would have been better off in) the Eurozone!
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282#
Thanks. I dont mean to have a go at you personally, but there are, as I've said on here before, a number of bulls looking for the proverbial red rags and I, I'm afraid, tend to be one of them.
At least you had the grace to apologise and I owe you the same and am happy to state that nothing personal was meant to be aimed at you directly. No offence intended.
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Anyone else noticed that "Lisbon Treaty" is an anagram of "Best Liar Tony" or "Tony Blairs Set" ?
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289 Boilerplated
"Why does the names "Atkins" and "Archer" always spring to mind...."
Atkins???
So keen were you to make such a thin propagandist point, you managed to forget the name. And I'm not going to help you out, either.
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#272 Fubar_Saunders
Fubar This is Smear..
Smeargate damages for Dorries and Watson.
Conservative MP Nadine Dorries and former Labour minister Tom Watson have received damages in separate claims following the spring's 'smeargate' affair.
Ms Dorries, the MP for Mid-Bedfordshire, received an undisclosed sum from former Downing Street spin doctor Damian McBride.
Roll On 2010
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@268 Major
I have felt much the same as you but these days I am much more pragmatic about the EU - it is a fact of life; the Lisbon treaty is upon us and there is nothing we can do about it.
As soon as our leaders get on the international stage they turn native and forget about our interests preferring to foster their international statesman image - whereas Sarkozy & Merkel play to their domestic audience.
The thought of Blair milking yet another institution turns my stomach but as ever we will have no say in matters.
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An objective analysis of a EU presidency would focus on effectiveness, and Mr. Blair is a consummate politician, whatever you think of his policies.
Europe needs reform,Britain needs a strong presence in Europe.It is only on this basis that Mr.Blair would be interested in becoming president.
The pragmatic Mr.Cameron is coming to this view while making the right noises to keep Mr.Hague and the eurosceptics off his back.If they both succeed,I predict they will be firm allies in a years time. After all,Mr.Cameron once famously described himself as Blair Mark 2 and led a standing ovation when he left the commons.
Lord Palmerston once said that Britain had no permanent friends or enemies,only permament interests.So let`s grow up,elites will act in their own interests while exploiting the ignorance,prejudice and credulity of the masses.To understand this is the cold turkey of a political education.
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fs @ 272
"the thick as pigswill electorate"
are you in favour of a Referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, Fubar? ... you know, to give the people their say
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160. At 3:17pm on 29 Oct 2009, sweetAnybody wrote:
[ re the differences between the Constitutional treaty and the Lisbon Treaty ]
"Just got a credit card bill in the post, can't be bothered to pay it - I'll just change my name instead."
You would have to change more than you name, you would have to change your address and some of the transactions too (in case you were spotted wearing that £1000 designer suit) , as you would know had you actually bothered to read the said treaties.
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If the people of the UK were actually consulted, the overwhelming majority would say 'no' to the Lisbon Treaty - and the reject the very idea of a president of Europe.
But if a president we must have, Tony Blair would be the second most unpopular and discredited choice imaginable. (The only worse choice worse than TB would be Gordon Brown). Blair is immensely unpopular and if the other European Leaders attempt to foist him upon us, it will only serve to remind the British people what an anti-democratic behemoth the EU has become.
But perhaps that's the real game plan? The UK has long been a thorn in their side - and maybe the other leaders hope this will tip us over the edge so that we leave the EU altogether.
Obviously an EU president is not welcome to anyone who opposes Lisbon - but by the far the best candidate would be Czech President Vaclav Klaus. At least he tried to stand up to them...
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284. At 7:51pm on 29 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
z @ 264
and oi (!) hands off my handle ... it's patented ... don't want a court case on your hands, do you?
*******************
Might be a bit late now Saga.
My election leaflets are already at the printers 8-)
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SP @ 286
"the blog would be a poorer place without him"
why Pickled, you charmer you!
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164. At 3:31pm on 29 Oct 2009, U14147588 wrote:
"Ah yes, Wikipeadia, the on-line fount of knowledge that you can write yourself."
Wikipeadia has many failings and many flaws but, unlike the tabloid press (that seems to be the source of many a euroseptic citation here), it is peer reviewed...
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Fubar 290
I tend to agree.
I remember the 1979 general election, when there was, arguably, even less of a case than now to vote Labour, yet they managed 37% of the electorate. Getting it down to a possible 27% now could be argued to represent an improvement in the intellectual state of the nation!
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289#
Yes, and theres a lot more Labour politicians in the current government, who if they were ordinary citizens would be in jail as well.
Aitken and Archer were jailed, rightly, are no longer part of the party and have been rehabilitated into society. Not above the law, but subject to it and punished by it. And no longer active in politics.
What about the Labour ministers and MP's who are flippers, dodgy mortgage deals, capital gains tax dodgers, ripping off the public purse, committing war crimes, malfeasance in public office, employing illegal immigrants?
Most of whom are not only still in their jobs, but some of them even got promoted or elevated to the Lords!
No. Laws, like taxes are for little people arent they, like the poor that these professional politicians claim to represent when most of them have never done a real days work in their lives?
Labour politicians? Obey the law? Do me a favour.
More two faced sanctimonious smearing rubbish as usual.
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The French and German leaders are a little upset that the man who potentially could be the next British Prime Minister is not playing ball to their little rules. So what – whoever is the next Prime Minister is obliged to represent the best interests of the British people, not to die in a ditch to help a dubious Euro project. Indeed, the current incumbent is also charged to be so obliged to the citizens of the UK. Perhaps you clever people out there, who have decided that the common littlefellows like me are not capable of making the big decisions, would care to explain to me why I should trust a Euro MuPpet considering that they have they not had their accounts ratified for the last 13 years? As for Mr Robinsons comments about John Majors “beef war”, I seem to recall that the French ended up breaking the EUs free trade rules at the end of that little episode. Even that petty little euro-spat was nothing compared the hardship caused to British farmers caused by the incompetent governance of one Mr T Blair during the 2001 Foot and Mouth outbreak.
All you socialist dreamers who have a vision of a wonderful Euro super-state would do well to consider that the last couple of “little corporals” (Monsieur Bonaparte and Herr Hitler) who attempted to forcibly unite the people of Europe came crashing down in blood and rubble.
Anyone care to remember the ethnic wars that occurred on the break up of Yugoslavia in the 1990s? The same will happen when a bloated EU super-state eventually comes crashing down because it is either bankrupt or because the populace have finally had enough of their corrupt political elite.
The astute Mr Ghandi was reported to have claimed that – oppressors will rise, and for a time they will seem invincible. But in the end they fall. Always”
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Boiler @ 289
"Why does the name "Archer" always spring to mind when it comes to Tory supporters?"
easy question
it's their idea of a really "heavy read"
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#273 Fubar:
Saga is not Draper in disguise. I have read his posts as nauseum (and they can be VERY nauseating). If I were to attach a label to Saga, it would be as Mr Bean - from a planet far far away, out of touch with the reality of this planet, finding it strange to having to react with the human race, and always hoping that what he does (or says) will work out - only to be disappointed.
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270#
The article goes back to 2007.
"DAVID MILIBAND is living in a £ 1.5 million London townhouse at the centre of a complex inheritance-tax avoidance scheme Gordon Brown has pledged to ban.
The Cabinet Minister, who is being urged to challenge Mr Brown for the Labour leadership, exploited an Inland Revenue loophole which has been used to reduce deathduty bills.
Mr Miliband lives with his wife Louise, a classical musician, in a four-storey terrace in ultra-fashionable-Primrose Hill, North London. Previously, the Georgian property had been the family home of his parents, Marxist sociologist Ralph and Marion, also a Left-wing academic.
Ralph died in 1994 aged 70, leaving his estate, then valued at £349,000, to his wife. But it is understood that shortly after his death, Marion and her sons David and Edward, who is also a Labour Minister, agreed a 'deed of variation'.
The move meant that 40 per cent of the equity of the Primrose Hill home was transferred to the sons, who were each given a 20 per cent share in the house.
Accountants say this unusual type of agreement is almost always drawn up in order to reduce a family's total death duty bill.
Mr Miliband's complicated arrangement will raise eyebrows among Labour colleagues, not least because it goes against his family's deeply-entrenched socialist background.
Belgian-born Ralph, who fled the Nazis in 1940, became in the Sixties and Seventies one of Britain's most celebrated intellectual disciples of Karl Marx, who famously frowned on the concept of 'private property'.
Ralph, who was originally called Adolphe but changed his name when he came to Britain, was an iconic figure on the Labour Left, whose writings influenced two generations of Socialist leaders.
The death duty loophole was named by Gordon Brown as one of 25 'tax abuses'. The Chancellor has complained that the wealthy regard inheritance tax as 'voluntary'.
There have been repeated reports that the Treasury was poised to ban such deeds of variation, but they remain an entirely legal device.
Inheritance tax is charged at 40 per cent above a set threshold, which in 1994 was £150, 000. The Milibands' deed of variation would have ensured that Ralph's zero-rated death duty allowance was fully used up.
This would have potentially meant that when Marion died, a slice of the family estate was already in the names of the two children, so the final inheritance tax bill would be reduced."
"Frowned on the concept of private property..." Hah. What a laugh. His son is sitting on a two million pound property portfolio. Wretched Champagne Socialists... lower than a snakes belly.
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#292 boilerplated wrote:
"Of course, if you are correct and seeing that the Eurozone has been coming out of recession long before even the USA it points to fact that the UK should have been (would have been better off in) the Eurozone!"
To argue this requires a causal link. In other words, is it particularly the euro that accounts for the different performance, or are other factors at work.
In terms of monetary policy not many economists seem to be arguing that UK (BofE) monetary policy has been less effective than that of the ECB. If anything the opposite, but it may be several years before we can assess this properly.
But in terms of fiscal policy we can agree that most of the Eurozone avoided Gordon Brown's fiscal incontinence in the years 2000-2007. But this was not really an issue of being inside or outside the euro.
Actually I don't read too much into one quarter's economic performance, and on this I think we may also agree.
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296#
Yep. Watson managed to slither away, but McBride was well and truly on the hook and had no leg to stand on.
Just have to wait and see what happens with the writs that were served that sycophantic toad Gus O'Donnell and on No10.
If Damien had sent his emails from the No10 bunker, on the GSi, then the smoking gun goes all the way back to you know who.
"I accept full responsibility... which is why I sacked the person responsible" LMAO.
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Fubar
I think really you know you are on to a loser re Milliband on this specific issue just admit it.
I am completely with you Stalin was the biggest butcher in history.
My understanding was that Milliband snr was a Euro communist - not a Stalinist.
If I was a tory spin dr I would try and find a link between the current Labour comrades in Europe and Stalinists.
However on this one specific point I think DM was actually acting from his heart and I respect him for that.
I do find your comments on working class people from the north as offensive - I am sure that is not what you really think.
'They' vote Labour because 'they' believe in community and hope that the party of the people will stand up for them. 'They' have been badly let down - 'they' keep believing even though the current governments free market economics has led to massive unemployment. I think 'they' should be applauded for not seeking to blame it all on someone else - like those who support the BNP.
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168. At 3:39pm on 29 Oct 2009, Fubar_Saunders wrote:
"A lot of you left leaners are straining at the leash about the grouping the tories are attaching themselves to in Europe, arent you?
And to think some of the company you guys used to keep as well and the communist ideologies some of your MP's used to subscribe to before they got elected... "
Long before they got elected (indeed long before the next scheduled election even), not like Cameron - that is - taking up with 'friends' of unpalatable ideologies 6 months before the next election, Labour saw the light of their ways in the mid 1980s when Kinnock told the Militant Tendency [1] their fortune...
[1] and their 'puppets', such a Eric Heffer
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299#
I have no view on the referendum one way or the other mate, to be honest. Funnily enough, we're probably not too far apart in that most of the electorate, but not all, are so apathetic and celebrity obsessed that it would be wasted on them and governments are elected to govern and not to rule by consensus. Referenda can be overdone.
What I do have a view on though, is that if you say you're going to give the people a referendum then renege on it by using weasel words that a lot of the people who voted for you are too slow to catch on to, then you're being disingeneous. You're breaking a pledge.
If you can break that pledge, how many more things can you renege on? What else cant you be trusted on? A manifesto commitment is meant to be a promise to the electorate that you will do what you say you'll do.
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309#
Yeah, he's not Draper, I know that much. Saga's misguided, not malicious.
He's just a self-loathing Tory from a chattering class suburb with what he thinks is a radical conscience. He's all the things that he would deny to you if he were to ever hold political office.
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Conedia @ 309
"If I were to attach a label to Saga, it would be as Mr Bean"
hey poor show ... it's okay (more than okay) to copy economic policy ideas from Vince Cable, but jokes?
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314#
...and then they came back under New Labour once they'd grown up, having swapped their wolf's clothing for that of a sheep...
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Boilerplated 292
No it points to the fact we should not have had someone in charge of our economy, who thought they had eliminated boom and bust and spent accordingly.
Other Countries such as France and Germany did not develop a credit bubble as Brown did with his spending policies. They fixed the roof when the sun was shining and hence did not create a public sector that was too big for the private sector to support with taxes. They also did not allow their banks to provide mortages of 125% and allow people who had no possible way to repay them take out these mortgages.
Thus the size of the public sector created by our Labour Government created a year on year deficit to our finances. Along with the credit bubble created it was always going to be nigh on impossible for us to fight this recession.
Living in denial is something Brown does, you do not expect that voters who will have to pay for his mistakes, will make the same error.
Anyone who believes the EU will get us out of this mess, only has to look at the increase in payments to the EU this coming year, even though we are bankrupt.
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fubar @ 316
"He's just a self loathing Tory from a chattering class suburb with what he thinks is a radical conscience"
a Tory?
wash your mouth out with soap, babe
Now!
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balancedthought 313
"'They' vote Labour because 'they' believe in community and hope that the party of the people will stand up for them."
You think so?
I think 'they' vote Labour because Labour tells them lies that they struggle to discriminate from the truth. For example, in the recent by-election in Norwich, Labour targeted old people with a leaflet saying that the Tories would end their free TV licences, which is an absolute and certain lie. Frankly, Labour, who, like any other organisation these days, go to some lengths to measure the impact of their PR, would not do that sort of thing if they weren't very sure there were votes to be won that way.
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313#
I have nothing to lose re Milliband. Which bit is inaccurate? That he isnt from a line of marxist intellectuals, who frowned on private ownership of property unless it was them? All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others?
That he hasnt done a real days work in his life? Thats not inaccurate, its perfectly true.
That he didnt use a loophole to avoid paying a tax that the PM, his party's leader has been trying to batter the tories over the head with? That he hasnt got a property portfolio worth 2 million pounds?
Nothing inaccurate in any of that.
"They" may believe in community, but the members "they" elect to represent them only believe in themselves and are too spineless to stand up to their own megalomaniacal elements in their own party and are too busy lining their own pockets.
Now, if an MP tried fishing for my vote who had been guilty of doing these things, I'd shake him warmly by the throat before inserting the ballot paper somewhere unmentionable. I sure as hell would never vote for him again. They must walk around up there with a big sign on their backs saying "kick me".
So, who are the goons who keep voting for them no matter what? It has to be only those who's continued well being, be it in non-jobs, be in in benefit dependency, be it through postal vote fraud, depend on Labour.
The same argument could be made of those who vote tory or for any other party, slavishly, because its what they've always done, for that matter without considering the implications of what the party is doing or has done during its tenure.
Political apathy is colour blind and it is endemic in the UK.
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277. Cameronsmortgage (referred)
Getting desperate, Saga?
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218 ecb wrote: "But at least Hitler won a National election in Germany before he gained power as a legitimate leader of the German people."
Yes, he won an election in his own country. Blair won three. So what's your point? My guy's still ahead of yours.
If I were you, I think you and Susan-Croft should drop the whole Hitler line, it isn't really working for you.
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320#
You know its true Saga.
Stop being in denial. It'll soothe your soul to come out you know.
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Is there any truth in the rumour that the Tory chairman, the lad from 'up north' 'Wilfred'Pickles is to be vacuDave's nominee for the President of Europe after Tony?
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220
"My, don't we have a lot of Labour stooges on here today."
What is a Labour stooge? Somebody who supports Labour?
Play the ball, not the man, if you have any skill!
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272. Fubar_Saunders
"Its that utter brazen chutzpah that makes me so sick I could puke. And yet 27% of the dumbed-down, benefit dependant, boneheads in the ooop North sink estates will STILL vote for them. They'd vote for a damn cowpat if it had a red rosette on it."
Good to see the old North South divide is a thing of the past...
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Bryers 298
As you say Cameron led a standing ovation for Blair when he left the Commons. I bet he leads another one when Gordon leaves too. And like his ice cream sharing mate Gordon will leave to be the next President of Europe after Blair.
As I said earlier, they owe us big time in Europe, because they know that the combination of Blair and Brown got their Constitution/Treaty through against the wishes of our people. The odd thing is that while something like 60% or so of Brits probably dont want it I bet the same number of people could well be against it in the other 26 countries if you take the French and Irish positions before the fudged votes.
I saw a panel today where four fairly prominent people were sounding off about the value of the Treaty. When pressed they all owned up to the fact that they hadn't read it. When I did my FCMA studies there was an economics textbook by one Hanson. Required reading. It was accepted by my fellow students that the only way you could take it in was to put it under your pillow at night. I didnt put the Treaty under my pillow, but I did read enough of the analysis to know the bits that I thought I might not like. Like the army and foreign policy. I dont care about the President idea - if Blair gets it he will be so preposterous that it will be instantly devalued.
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braveSouter 326
"Is there any truth in the rumour....."
No. You just made that one up ten minutes ago. Like last time. And the time before. And (etc, etc).
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No305jr,
To what extent do you think the Tories improved the 'intellectual state of the nation' during their last period in office bearing in mind that they suffered their worst defeat since 1832?
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There can still be a UK referendum on the effects of the Lisbon Treaty and related issues, even when approved by the Czech republic and it has become Law.
This will give the British public a chance to speak about Europe for the first time since the 1970's. This would also give David Cameron a clear mandate for reform and should make the Labour government feel most uncomfortable.
This would be radical but would deliver on the pledge and be useful in future EU reform. The only question is what would be the questions in the 'referendum'.
Britain's place and membership in Europe is different from mainland Europe - not only in relation to its geography.
Is Blair more of a Wannabe Winston or is he more like Napoleon Bonaparte - I'm really perlexed by this dilemna?
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#287 Fubar
"how many more millions that the Soviets under Stalin and others murdered in pogroms"
and
#313 balancedthought
"I am completely with you Stalin was the biggest butcher in history"
You obviously don't read views from contributors to the Stephanomics blogs! eg here, here, here, here etc
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169. At 3:41pm on 29 Oct 2009, yellowbelly1959 wrote:
"U-turn on TA funding.
Just to name two of many, many, many [Labour U-turns]."
On the other hand, better to do a U-turn than carry on down the road to Dogma just because your political (self) arrogance won't allow you to even consider the possibility that the road-map has been incorrectly read and thus the policy vehicle is travelling down the wrong road - like Thatcher did, which ultimately cost her the party leadership (and nearly cost Major the next election). Better a U-turn than arrive at the wrong destination, as Thatcher did with the Poll tax, just to name one of the many, many, many incorrect destinations Thatcher arrived at... admittedly some in hindsight, but then that is the job of politicians, to fore-see the future!
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172. At 3:45pm on 29 Oct 2009, Susan-Croft wrote:
"It is totally ridiculous to say the Lisbon Treaty is not the same document as offered before as the Constitution."
It's not if you bother to read each of them, even doing a word or phrase match will show up substantive (not substantial) differences - that is, in actual meaning, when even a comer, semi-colon or period in a different place will affect the legal meaning.
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131. grandantidote
If you have faith in the decision of the great British public then pop into your local Spar and just casualy ask one or two whats there opinion on the Lisbon treaty.... the rest of the afternoon produced basicaly the same results, but you would like these people to decide on the long term future of our country.
Didn't those same bright sparks vote Labour in three times?
Own goal there ga.
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310 Fubar,
I thought you had more sense than refer to the present government as being comprised of Socialists, one learns something everyday.
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Fubar
Is it not correct that it is the Labour Government, the one that takes every opportunity to say how the Tories will take from the poor to give to the rich, that has doubled the threshhold of 325k to 650k for married couples and civil partners by allowing each to have their own 325K and allow the possibility of the first deceased's exemption being passed on to the surviving spouse? Rather like the Discretionary Trusts that most people with sufficient assets to worry about IHT have drawn up?
Was this not a "clever" move by Darling to offset Cameron's pre-emptive strike in 2007 (?) when the latter said he would raise the IHT limit to 1m?
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334. At 9:30pm on 29 Oct 2009, Boilerplated wrote:
............ but then that is the job of politicians, to fore-see the future!
*********************
Well Brown and Darling certainly saw the credit crunch coming and reined in their spending in order to put money aside to lessen the effects. Didn't they?
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"In its place comes a different cast-iron guarantee of a new law to force any future government to put any future EU treaty to a popular vote."
No such law is possible in this country, where parliament is sovereign and no parliament can bind its successor. In the absence of any distinction in this country between regular law and constitutional law, there is nothing to stop a future Labour government using its new majority to repeal this 'cast-iron guarantee' on its first day back in power.
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FS @ 325 ... "It'll soothe your soul to come out"
mmm, dunno about that
hey and even worse than "Tory" ... what's this about I live in a suburb?
a SUBURB!
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blame @ 323
poor guy's getting censored just on account of his name
it's that Perry again, I'm betting!
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319 Susan.
It is absurd to think that in a free market economy someone is 'in charge'. Surely you can do better than that.Try and have a look at the work of Hayek and Friedman they will help you to clarify your thoughts.
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197. At 4:47pm on 29 Oct 2009, sonofthedesert wrote:
"#145 boilerplated
You can hide behind the semantics of whether or not the Lisbon Treaty is the same as the previous European Constitution but it is fundamentally dishonest to claim that they are not essentially the same."
Again a euroseptic proves that he hasn't actually compared the legal meaning of the two treaties in question, you can hide behind the miss-information published by the Murdoch and other right wing media if you like but you can't change the actual legal meaning of the said documents, one (the defunct one) created a new Constitution, the Lisbon Treaty only amends, just like Maastricht did and Mr Major never offered a referendum on that treaty, a document that caused far greater changes to and within europe than the Lisbon Treaty will ever do.
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342 sagamix
There you go again, making accusations you can't prove....
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In reply to comments @ #207:
"A vote for UKIP or the BNP is looking more and more attractive."
Wow, a xenophobe as well as racist... :-(
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fubar saunders @ 310
"Wretched Champagne Socialists ... lower than a snake's belly"
I have a particular interest in this because I hear it such a lot - the idea of a person being wealthy and successful and also holding left wing political views seems to arouse such quivering anger ... a fury really ... amongst many members of the Hoi Polloi and I just don't understand it
any explanations welcome; either from you, Fubar, or anyone else who feels as you do on the matter - it's important to me
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209. At 5:11pm on 29 Oct 2009, johnharris66 wrote:
"the 2005 Labour manifesto (available on search engines)quite clearly promised a referendum on any new EU constitution. ..//.."
Not it did not.
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336 the blame game
#Didn't those same bright sparks vote Labour in three times?
Own goal there ga.
No they were all wearing blue rosettes, no i'm lying I didn't ask them who they voted for not my business or yours, I merely asked them politely what they thought of the Lisbon treaty, hardly an own goal old chap.
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212. At 5:17pm on 29 Oct 2009, UK-SILENT-MAJORITY wrote:
"I don't care what happened 20-30 years ago, what i care about is "NOW" and bless me"
Guess the truth hurts then? Had Maastricht not happened it is very doubtful that we would be were we are "NOW"; all Lisbon is about is amending what has developed from Maastricht. As I said before, it's funny how the Tories weren't so keen on allowing the British peopel to have a referendum back then were they - the phrase "Do as I say, not what I do" comes to mind...
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Saga I always had you as one of the two John's from Rory Bremner's show with their awfully nice suburban dinner parties with their wives where they put the world to right.
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250 zydeco
#Perversely the UK has abandoned border controls without joining Schengen.
=============================================================
Britain the only country in the EU that you have to show a passport to enter
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35O Sagamix
This irks me too. The implication is that if you are left wing but also fabulously wealthy and successful (like me) you are some kind of hypocrite or poseur. It's sad, because it also implies that political beliefs are essentially tribal and self-serving, and that pretending otherwise is a sham. Personally, I'm more idealistic than that. (But then, I'm left wing, so I would be ...)
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216. At 5:23pm on 29 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
"overlord @ 185
"We are the English & we have not yet had our say!"
catchy! "
But wrong, we had a say in 2005, before that 2001, before that 1997, before that 1992, do I need to go on?...
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315. At 8:41pm on 29 Oct 2009, Fubar_Saunders wrote:
...What I do have a view on though, is that if you say you're going to give the people a referendum then renege on it by using weasel words that a lot of the people who voted for you are too slow to catch on to, then you're being disingeneous. You're breaking a pledge.
If you can break that pledge, how many more things can you renege on? What else cant you be trusted on? A manifesto commitment is meant to be a promise to the electorate that you will do what you say you'll do.
===
Fubar, it seems that a manifesto promise is quite literally not worth the paper it is written on.
Why, Labour even went to court to argue that very point, that you cannot trust what they put in their manifesto.
Very helpful when deciding who to vote for in 2010 I would have thought.
"A former Labour Party activist was today defeated in his "David v Goliath" legal challenge with the Government over its refusal to grant a referendum on the European Union Lisbon Treaty.
A judge struck out a case brought by UK Independence Party (Ukip) parliamentary hopeful Stuart Bower in which he accused Prime Minister Gordon Brown of a breach of contract.
Ahead of the hearing, Mr Bower argued that the Lisbon Treaty, signed by 27 member states of the EU in December, is effectively the same as the European Constitution on which the Government promised a referendum at the last General Election.
Cecilia Ivimy, for the Government, said: "A manifesto promise is incapable of giving rise to a legally binding contract with the electorate. It is a point which is so obvious that I don't want to labour it."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-512875/Judge-throws-legal-challenge-Governments-refusal-decide-EU-treaty-referendum.html
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It appears that Jacqui Smith is fallible after all
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8333138.stm
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I am really concerned about the moderation on this site - that person is getting moderated just for saying hooray that doesn't seem fair.
it seems like there is a real problem with mentioning something about that person. why is that?
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217. At 5:27pm on 29 Oct 2009, johnharris66 wrote:
"#08 grandantidote wrote:
"Labour at no time promised a referendum on the Lisbon treaty"
The 2005 Labour manifesto said
"It [the constitutional treaty] is a good treaty for Britain and the new Europe. We will put it to the British people in a referendum and campaign whole heartedly for a ‘Yes’ vote."
But Lisbon is not a constitutional treaty, that is, it doesn't create a new Constitutional Treaty for Europe, it's an amending treaty, and even Cameron has acknowledged that basic fact.
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oh am cutting and pasting in defence of freespeech
why has my post 277 been removed
yet it is copied and past in 288 - someone is desperate to remove the issue from the blog this is party political bias please copy and paste this to stop this incredible behaviour from continuing
288. At 7:58pm on 29 Oct 2009, StrictlyPickled wrote:
277. Cameronsmortgage
"I think Tony Blair should not be the president of Europe because he will want to have the Palace of Versailles. This would be unfair as it is bigger than my house, which like the Palace of Versailles will have been paid for by the peasants. "
=======================================
I thnk it was Bob Hope who said that he wouldn't run for president as his wife didn't want to move to a smaller house !
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358 grandantidote
"Britain the only country in the EU that you have to show a passport to enter"
Wrong. I had to show my passport to enter the Netherlands two weeks ago.
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219. At 5:37pm on 29 Oct 2009, rockRobin7 wrote:
"Oh how the left wing love a European debate; let's face it they are history as far as British politics are concerned."
The sooty pots and kettles time again me thinks.... Seems to me that there are many more right wing (as is usual on Nick's blog for some reason) posters here than 'lefties' or Europhiles.
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fubar
I am unclear why is caring about people even if you are rich a bad thing.
I am a bollie man myself although I prefer red wine.
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337#
Champagne socialists, Sout, theres a difference... they're worse :-)
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333#
Ah, the BBC's favourite token extremist, a person who never seems to get their posts moderated despite some of the vile, prejudiced things that are said.
A pity that this particular contributor contaminates Steph's blog, because some of the stuff that Steph posts is quite thought provoking.
My post does not, if I recall correctly specifically refer to the murder of Jews. I made no inference then and I make no inference now of Millibands religion.
The thing that I think stinks is their politics.
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"Play the ball, not the man, if you have any skill!"
Like being lectured in tact and diplomacy by George W Bush....
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@ 357 ... "awfully nice suburban dinner parties"
that's right Ian, twist the knife (!) ... why don't you go the whole hog and accuse me of frequenting B and Q?
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341#
Thats what they call it isnt it? Hampstead Garden Suburb?
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328#
Hey, I can chuck stones and smear with the best of them, if thats what it is going to degenerate into. Theres no way though on this earth that the liars, cheats and thieves of New Labour are going to get the stone flinging all to themselves. You get what you give.
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My #375 merely pointed out that support for Mr Blair as El Presidente is not so widespread throughout Europe as we are led to believe.
What was wrong with that?
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#131 Grandantidote
"Labour never at any time promised a referendum on the lisbon treaty , if your convinced they did then furnish the rest of us with the evidence of that."
Well, you are correct they didn't mention the Lisbon Treaty by name, but they certainly did promise a referendum on the Constitutional Treaty. Labour said in the manifesto:
"The new Constitutional Treaty ensures the new Europe can work effectively, and that Britain keeps control of key national interests like foreign policy,taxation,social security and defence.The Treaty sets out what the EU can do and what it cannot.It strengthens the voice of national parliaments and governments in EU affairs.It is a good treaty for Britain and for the new Europe. We will put it to the British people in a referendum and campaign whole-heartedly for a ‘Yes’vote to keep Britain a leading nation in Europe." (Page 83-84, Labour Party Manifesto 2005)
Brown's suggestion that Lisbon was significantly different from the earlier draft (rejected by France and Holland) has been totally blown out of the water by the person who wrote it!
We were promised a referendum and New Labour broke its promise. Nothing that this government says on any topic can be trusted ever again.
See below for the evidence you seek!
# 172 Susan-Croft
"It is totally ridiculous to say the Lisbon Treaty is not the same document as offered before as the Constitution. I believe the guy who wrote it Valery Gisgard d'Estaing, may have spelt it wrong but still, says it is the same as before"
Yes! And just in case there is any doubt, see this article in The Indie and also this.
.
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davies65 @ 359
"The implication is that if you are left wing but also wealthy and successful you are some kind of hypocrite or poseur"
yes it's a tough calling being on the Left
if you're rich, you're a hypocrite and your views are tainted
if you're NOT rich, you're an envy driven class warrior and your views are tainted
only way it works is if you make a ton of money (so you're not an envy monkey) and you give most of it away to Good Causes (so you're not a hypocrite)
so the bar is set pretty high for us, isn't it?
but you know what? I like it that way - why? well because it's only right that we have higher standards, for one thing, and also because of what it demonstrates about the relative strength of the real political argument between left and clown - we know (don't we?) that the reactionary muscleheads who throw that Champagne Socialist stuff around do it for one reason and one reason only ... they have nothing else to offer
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350#
Damn right. They're the worst sort because their dogma says no private education, no top ups within the NHS, no to inherited wealth, no to privilege - and yet they then go off and do exactly what they advocate that no-one else should do. They're usually born into privilege and embarrassed by it... but only in front of the voters, of whose backgrounds they have absolutely not the slightest understanding or comprehension of.
What the hell does Geoffrey Robinson understand of the lives of those in Coventry North East? What the hell does David Milliband know and understand of the people of Tyneside, when he's never had a real job in his life?
I might not have agreed with Dennis Skinner's politics, but at least he was the real deal.
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#371 Fubar
No, and I didn't intend to infer you had made any such inference either! The person in question has made various references to Stalin who you had mentioned (and also to Hitler), in essence to deny Russian persecution and the Holocaust. Apparently, according to this person, it's all part of the same thing....
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350. At 10:18pm on 29 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
fubar saunders @ 310
"Wretched Champagne Socialists ... lower than a snake's belly"
I have a particular interest in this because I hear it such a lot - the idea of a person being wealthy and successful and also holding left wing political views seems to arouse such quivering anger ... a fury really ... amongst many members of the Hoi Polloi and I just don't understand it
any explanations welcome; either from you, Fubar, or anyone else who feels as you do on the matter - it's important to me
================
I have a question, what is your definition of a Socialist?
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B&Q?
How frightfully common, Saga wouldnt be seen dead in B&Q.
It'd have to be Habitat... or that place that Harry Enfield had in his last series, set in Notting Hill (I Saw You Coming)
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369#
You could count the amount of politicians who care about people in the current parliament on the fingers of one hand. Big fan of Bollinger myself and a decent claret.
The champagne socialists are only interested in one thing. Self gratification and enrichment.
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367#
The only one I didnt have to show my passport in was Eire. All the rest, I've had to, but thats probably because we're outside Schengen. Then again, we're not the only ones.
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fubar @ 374
"Hampstead Garden Suburb"
oh do stop it!
As If
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365#
As someone else alluded to earlier on, its the same book in a different jacket. The contents are the same. Denying what you committed in a manifesto on such a technicality even though you KNOW its the same damn document is pedantic chicanery. Lies and deceit. A wolf in sheeps clothing.
And if they break that promise, if they lie and obfuscate about that, what else do they lie and obfuscate about?
As Obama said... you can put lipstick on a pig... but its still a pig.
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359#
Precisely. Because it aint going to be you dipping into your pockets is it?
You gonna be at the front of the queue to hand it over when Gordon brings in the 50p tax rate? You happy, deep down in your heart that hell, yes, you can afford it and you know Gordon and Alistair will spend it wisely for the benefit of your fellow man and woman and lift all those kids (the ones that the tories would spend their time eating) out of poverty and penury?
I sure as hell aint. He can whistle for it.
You completely sure about that? No fingers crossed behind your back?
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379#
Higher Standards? LOL
Of what exactly??? You saying that Geoffrey Robinson, Mandelson, Sean Woodward, Hattie, Milliband, have high standards???
Best one I've heard all night.
ROTFLMMFAO.
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Distant traveller 301
"Obviously an EU president is not welcome to anyone who opposes Lisbon - but by the far the best candidate would be Czech President Vaclav Klaus. At least he tried to stand up to them..."
To "stand up to them" as you put it requires strong leadership and political support among the 27.One of the president`s major activities post- Copenhagen will be to mobilize support behind a climate change agenda.The man you recommend is a political flat earther who denies climate change.How could a man of this calibre be the best candidate?
You may be unhappy about a president of Europe but will have to learn to live with it.Instead of whinging, try to think how it might be used to Britain`s advantage rather than wanting to appoint an anti EU nonentity as its first president.
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381#
That poster you linked to is strange. In some respects not entirely historically inaccurate, but there is a nasty prejudiced undertone to it...
To me, murder is murder is murder. Can never be any justification.
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Fubar Saunders!
listen up for just a second
you hate the lumpen proletariat, you hate champagne socialists, you hate lefty intellectuals, you hate trendy metropolitan types, you hate chavs, you hate Northern council estate dwellers, you hate ...
what on Earth's going on in there?
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The Englishman @ 382
"what is your definition of a Socialist?"
someone who believes the main job of government (after internal and external security) is the reduction of inequality
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380 "I might not have agreed with Dennis Skinner's politics, but at least he was the real deal."
I'm sure he'd be chuffed. This confirms what I suspected - it's actually a form of snobbery. Lefties are OK, as long as they stick to beer and sandwiches and can be easily identified by their accent. But don't let them get above themselves. We wouldn't want them at our golf club, would we? "Champagne socialists" - says it all. How dare they drink champagne!
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392#
Hate's a bit strong mate. Except the Champagne Socialists. I REALLY hate them. :o)
The rest of them just profoundly disappoint me, but at least thankfully in sunny Belgium, or semi-rural Buckinghamshire, I dont have to share my space with any of them.
Lumpen proletariat is a tongue in cheek jibe.
Lefty Intellectual is oxymoronic. Well, just plain moronic. :o)
Trendy Metropolitan types... if they're pretending to be something they're not. See Hampstead Champagne Socialists, It Girls, Sloanies....
Chavs... Nobody likes Chavs. Oxygen thieves.
Northern Council Estate dwellers... yes, my experiences on that front have not been amongst my happiest. In fact, I'm afraid I have to correct you. What I said was Sink Estate dwellers. Not necessarily council estate. Not every council estate is a sink one. Just most of them. Nobody wants to live on them. Nobody wants to live near them. I'm not alone on that front, I'm afraid.
What did you think was going on?
Anyway, what do you expect? I'm a grumpy old man!
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Good banter this evening guys, goodnight. Half one over here in Belgium, way past my bedtime.
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177 Djlazarus
Thank you for the smile you brought to my face, however wry.
It beat all the snapping and snarling going on round here.
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388 Fub
"You gonna be at the front of the queue to hand it over when Gordon brings in the 50p tax rate?"
Nobody really likes paying tax, but I'm generally in favour of a progressive tax system and so, yes, I'll cough up (realistically, probably not to Alistair and Gordon by then, but to George and David - let's hope they don't blow it all on ice cream).
This is enlightening. You can't believe that somebody who believes what I believe can possibly be for real, can you? You think everybody, deep down, must be at your level. Sorry but I'm not. Sorry if this makes you feel bad about yourself.
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394#
OK last one.
They can drink as much champagne as they like, especially Dennis Skinner. Dennis had conviction for what he thought and he was a product of his upbringing.
The champagne socialists are different. They claim to have the same values as the likes of Dennis, the same ideology.. but those things that Dennis opposed because he believed he saw the downside of it and how it affected the working class community that he came from... these guys have either had it already, have done it already or are still doing it. Implying that its OK for them to do it, but not for the proles.
Double standards in my book.
Private education being a case in point. All well and good saying "I'm against it, equality of opportunity" and all that guff... but if you've had a private education yourself and/or you're sending your own kids to private schools and you're seeking to deny that right to everyone else then its two faced.
The Champagne sect have got more to be two faced about.. I note as well, you havent confirmed your willingness to hand over your largesse to Mr Darling so he can do good for the poor with it, if you're so successful?
Or is it the age old socialist thing? Sooner or later, they run out of someone elses money? Its alright to spend it so long as its not coming out of your pocket, but its alright to take if off either the poor by cutting the 10p rate, or the middle England voters who everyone is chasing to secure votes from by introducing the 50p one?
Figured as much.
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pd65 @ 394
"Lefties are OK, as long as they stick to beer and sandwiches and can be easily identified by their accent"
and so long as they don't win elections, of course - that seems to really annoy people as well
it's all just softhead reactionary blustering
be like us lot saying that to be a "proper right winger" you have to be running a dynamic import export business in third world babies or something
except we don't say that because we know it's a bit stupid
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fs @ 399
"these guys have either had it already, have done it already or are still doing it. Implying that its OK for them to do it, but not for the proles"
that's saying you can't be rich and left wing - it may be double standards in your book but in my book it's nonsense
"if you've had a private education yourself and/or you're sending your own kids to private schools and you're seeking to deny that right to everyone else then its two faced"
que? no Labour government has EVER sought to abolish private schools (more's the pity) and so there is no "denying that right" to others going on
"the age old socialist thing. Sooner or later, they run out of someone else's money"
cliche
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It would be interesting if all the UK Superstate reps were UKIP and the BNP.
Many other countries are doing the same thing, voting for people who do not want to be part of the Superstate.
We can make our voice heard.
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GB has spoken ....."We, Britain, are supporting Tony Blair's candidature," he added, which he said would be in the "British national interest".
GB now speaks for the whole of Britain !!!!!! some mistake surely ????
Looks like GB backed the wromg horse .....AGAIN ?????
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They moderate it here
They moderate it there
Can't discuss my mortgage anywhere.
Wakey Wakey tories
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I maintain Tony Blair should not have the Palace of Versailles because he is not related to royalty.
Off with his head!
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Let them eat coke
oops I meant cake
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Shame really that the EU members did not leave things as they were as it would have been a lot cheaper and a lot more democratic.
If we simply had the Foreign Secretaries of each of the member states holding meetings or video conferences to agree a common policy there would be no need for the EU Parliament and all the expensive bureacracy that comes with it.Similarly, there is no need for a President of the EU as she/he is just another mouth at the current EU gravy train trough.
Better still, there would be no problem making EU accounts as each country could hold its own Foreign minister to account and for the public there would be the opportunity to vote out a government whose Foreign secretary was leading the country in the wrong direction.
There's no point in making the EU members into a federal state as we all know if the EU state went to war an unfair burden of providing troops would be placed on the UK just as it was in Iraq and Afghanistan.The EU members are only really partners in name only and the only real commitment is to looking after themselves.
If only we had a whistleblower with access to MEP expenses, that would really make the case for staying out of Europe, though the sight of MEPs making profuse apologies to the EU Parliament on TV does not bear thinking about.
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Fubar_Saunders
Actually Fubar the problem is that this has not been a Labour Government at all. It is all very well for people like Sagamix to try to defend this mock Labour Party but out in the real World no one from working class roots sees this Government as representing them, not now or in the last 12 years.
As you will know I come from a very poor working class background so it is easy for me to gather the information of what is going on from when I go home. What these people who claim to be well off and left wing do not understand, is that they are despised far more than those that come from actual rich backgrounds. The reason is they have feathered their nest from the system that they claim they do not like. You see this is another reason why many are turning to parties like the BNP not just because of race but because many see no party which represents them.
What left wing people refuse to understand is that out in the real World people are more concerned with jobs and keeping a roof over their heads, not this idealogy that they have heard for far too long. They know that the Labour government has systematically failed them. They see people like Martin who was a Speaker coming from very poor roots but using his position to gain wealth rather than doing anything to improve their lot. Greed has been the word for this last Labour Government, only too many on here are too blind to see it.
You see the Labour Party like to believe that because people are poor they are stupid as well. However when people from left wing start talking about spending more, it is these very people who are supposed to be so stupid that cry where is the money coming from. Just as it has been said the the public will not understand what the Lisbon Treaty is about, even when presented with the main points listed. How arrogant.
I personally take everything said by the left wing brigade with a pinch of salt, the reason is they are representing no one anymore. What they fail to understand is that their way has been tried for 12 years and has been devastating for those they claim to have tried to help. Child poverty has not improved, social mobility has gone down to name just two.
You see the 50p tax and other measures will appease those of left wing in the Labour party, however all it will do in the real World is lose people jobs and homes. So in actual fact the politics of envy will punish those they claim to want to help. With real wealth comes freedom, the freedom to say I will move my business somewhere else, I will take my money somewhere else where the taxes are lower. It has all been tried before, the result was the tax take went down and business left Britain. As business in the private sector is the only thing which can get us out of this mess now it is the single most stupid thing you could ever do.
But hey what do I know, I only come from one of these poor estates where left wing policies were rammed down your neck all the time. Nothing ever improved though, nothing has either, in fact it has got worse, we have high crime levels to deal with now as well.
Personally I dislike these people who sit back in their nice houses sipping their nice drinks and saying how much they care because they claim to be a left wing person. How kind of them, how magnanimous.
I have said before there is no such thing as left, right or centre of politics anymore, it is a myth dreamt up by those like Brown who want to divide our society. There is only commonsense politics which benefits us all.
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Being No 405 on this one,I'm not sure it's worth it, but anyway....
A man in Number Ten his Party never voted for
A Man at his right-hand side nobody has voted for
A man 'trying'(?) to be EU President, for whom nobody will vote.
An EU Constitution most people voted against, but is going to happen anyway.
Why is Cameron doing anything very different by aligning himself with folks who don't want anyone to have a vote? Surely both he and the EU should feel perfectly at home with such people?
The hypocrisy surrounding the European 'project' is mind-boggling, but reflects the situation here in the UK with growing accuracy. I'm sure we're all meant for each other and will live happily ever after. As do all those who visit www.notbornyesterday.org
JW
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Susan Croft
408
Please don't pose as being anything but a Tory.
I was one of 7 in a 3 bedroom house, on a council estate in the middle of nowhere.
I think we should have a more progressive tax system.
I think richer people should pay more tax it is only fair.
409
Don't give up the day job -
I wonder how long those posts will last though
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It seems as if Tony Blairs presidency is less likely this morning. What we are left with is the nasty taste of envy from the conservatives.
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410#
3 bedrooms?
Between 7 of you?
(...If only you knew how tempting it was to launch into the 4 Yorkshiremen sketch from the Secret Policeman's Ball... but I'll desist!)
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The Tories are practising 'I'll get back to you on that politics' in all areas.... the economy, foreign policy/Europe, healthcare, etc.
It's ripe of Dave to accuse Gordon Brown of flip-flopping when he hasn't even decided what he's going to do himself.
Oh well, if the worst comes to the worst, they can always just carry on with Labour policy which is to privatise everything, end up paying double for public services and hope for the best.
Actually, hold on a minute, that's exactly what Dave is doing - he's just pretending to be different to get votes but in fact he's going to continue what Labour have done.
Why? Because that's what Murdoch, the CBI and other powerful members of our society have told him to do.
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356. At 10:32pm on 29 Oct 2009, Boilerplated wrote:
212. At 5:17pm on 29 Oct 2009, UK-SILENT-MAJORITY wrote:
"I don't care what happened 20-30 years ago, what i care about is "NOW" and bless me"
Guess the truth hurts then? Had Maastricht not happened it is very doubtful that we would be were we are "NOW"; all Lisbon is about is amending what has developed from Maastricht. As I said before, it's funny how the Tories weren't so keen on allowing the British peopel to have a referendum back then were they - the phrase "Do as I say, not what I do" comes to mind...
=================================
The difference, if you can take those rose tinted specs of yours off, is that the tories didn't offer us a referendum to gain votes and then move the goalposts. Only an integrityless grubbly little government like our current one could do that.
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225. At 5:45pm on 29 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
just stop and think for a second; if we have a Referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, that means the 22 per cent of the population (!) who say they either will, or are quite likely to, vote for the BNP in the next Election will all have the opportunity to put their pox in the box - okay, a few of them will have the flu (or something) on the Big Day but still ...
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That would never do would it saga, let a little thing like democracy get in the way of your socialist dictatorship.
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balancedthought 410
I think you need to change your name or get glasses because if you can find anything pro Conservative in there you are living in a dream. I am an English Democrat, though yes I will probably vote Conservative to keep Labour out. However they are not changing from the 50p tax either.
You see the problem is with people like you, you think those who think for themselves must fit into your ideas or they are in the opposite camp. Do not seek to tell me what I think, start thinking for yourself, that would be a much better option.
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243. At 6:07pm on 29 Oct 2009, Boilerplated wrote:
103. At 1:25pm on 29 Oct 2009, sweetAnybody wrote:
"I think Daves best approach to the EU would be on the first month the Conservatives come to power to simply stop sending the cheques.
Then if they keep phoning, he should dump them - by text."
Cameron has promised that he will never allow the UK to default of it's debts (talking about the national debt), now you are suggesting that he should break his promise. Anyway, taking your approach and the UK credit rating will fall through the floor - but then perhaps that's your cunning plan, default on our debts and then ask the USA to bail us out like after WW2...
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Did I mention debts? I was talking about the billions we plow into the EU for little return, including that money from that rebate the nice Mr Blair gave away so someone MIGHT offer us something in return.
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408#
Broad agreement there Suse.
The thing from a purely political view that I have to admire is that they have sold the public an old nag on the pretence that it is a thoroughbred and somehow still managed to get away with it.
They paint themselves as the party of the working classes when they are anything but. The party of the poor is exactly that. Without the poor, they are nothing. So, you keep the poor poor and blame it on the opposition saying "they'd be much much worse". You sell it to them as a never ending struggle against the fat cats whom you've been cosying upto to fund your largesse, saying you're intensely relaxed about them being filthy rich, because as long as you have an ideological enemy, you've always got someone else to blame your failures on.
If you achieve the impossible of dragging everyone out of poverty, if you achieve full social mobility, what do you have left? When there is no-one who is poor any more? You end up writing your own redundancy notice.
So, you keep them there, down in the gutter and blame it on everyone else.
And you know what?
They buy it. They believe you.
It really is politically, quite brilliant. Have to give Mandy some serious kudos for it. Genius. Snake Oil retailing par excellence.
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289. At 8:01pm on 29 Oct 2009, Boilerplated wrote:
151. At 3:00pm on 29 Oct 2009, Exiledscot52 wrote:
"Another thought for Sagamix...
That was Caroline Flint.....shows a disregard for a front bench spokesperson from your party....."
Why does the names "Atkins" and "Archer" always spring to mind when a Tory supporter tries to use the word "discredited" about any Labour politician, IIRC the last Labour MP to be thrown in jail was John Stonehouse...
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Yep, Labour MPs don't even get sacked for their abuses of power.
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408
Oh and I work very closely with politicians from both sides of the fence. Some are good some are bad - but the worst ones - the most destructive ones, are the chauncey gardners who believe all we need is good homespun commonsense to do what people really want.
The problem is they blunder about unaware of all the mess they are creating spouting simplistic nonsense until the venal nature of their soul becomes obvious. Sometimes they cling to power and areas, towns drift for years. They suck the life out of the enthusiasm of people. Good senior officers avoid them like the plague they start to rot the locality from