A massive electoral gamble
Vote for us and we'll delay your pension. Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits. Vote for us and, if you work in the public sector, we'll freeze your pay - and if you work in Whitehall, we might cut your job.
This was no ordinary electioneering speech by George Osborne.
This is, of course, no ordinary time.
The Tories' calculated gamble is that they will be rewarded for being open, up-front and honest about the pain that lies ahead. What's more, they have tried to signal that - in the phrase the shadow chancellor used again and again - "we are all in this together".
Thus, the right will not get its 50p tax rate cut while others will see their pay frozen. Thus, no-one on less than £18,000 will have their pay frozen, and baby bonds and child tax credits will still be paid to the poorest.
In the past, politicians have learned to their cost that honesty is not always the best policy. Voters who applaud talk of tough choices tend to howl when those choices hurt them.
The Tories today took a massive electoral gamble.
They know that John Smith's shadow budget of 1992 was applauded for being honest about the tax rises needed to pay for Labour's spending promises. They know that New Labour blamed him and it for losing them the election. They hope that they will prove that history does not have to repeat itself.
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"Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits..." Errr only if your earning over £50K/pa, in which case I doubt that your children will be left starving as a result of that!
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Nick..just for once,can you give your views on the following question, please?
What was better?...The Government last week announcing more expenditure that we can't afford...
..Or,Osborne,at least being honest, and telling the public how it really is..
Painful,but necessary.
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"Vote for us and we'll delay your pension. Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits. Vote for us and, if you work in the public sector, we'll freeze your pay - and if you work in Whitehall, we might cut your job."
That's the conservatives for you.
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The only comparison with John Smith is the policy setting
Against this current Government who are making up policy on the hoof and don't announce things at their own conference is somewhat bizarre
It was the Tories who set the "reduction" agenda, and it looks like they are once more leading the government...until I suppose Mandy appears on our screens and says he's really a Tory
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3 derekbarker
"That's the Conservatives for you"
Quite so. Do you have a problem with tax credits being cut for people on over £50k?
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Opposition parties don't win elections, Governments lose them.
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3
Sane people would realise that is also going to be Labour.
They are just spinning, lying and deceiving.
Hoping that they can trick enough simple minded people into voting for them.
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"derekbarker wrote:
"Vote for us and we'll delay your pension. Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits. Vote for us and, if you work in the public sector, we'll freeze your pay - and if you work in Whitehall, we might cut your job."
That's the conservatives for you."
Better than the Labour approach "Vote for us and your grandchildren will still be paying for your mistake"
The incoming government will be left a debt mountain higher than anything previously seen in this country. People who understand maths will realise that spending will have to be reduced to cover that.
So far it seems to be fairly sensible - the majority of people in the private sector who realise they are unlikely to get pay rises will appreciate that the public sector are also taking a hit. The majority of people will not be effected by the increase in the pension age being pushed forward (for most of us we would suffer under Labour plans anyway!) and if the numbers are correct it will save billions and shouldn't effect services.
Hopefully, voters will realise that medicine needs to be taken.
And we all know that Labour will be making cuts but they just won't give details.
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George Osborne's main problem isn't so much what he says, but the way he says it. I suspect his hectoring, public school prefect delivery is a bit of a Tory vote loser. Caledonian Comment
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I'd rather let someone new in with realistic views (even if he does look about 15) than trust the prime chancellor any longer. Lets not forget they were all about more spending.
Be interesting to see how this affects the casual voter electorate. I think that most people are open to the message that it's about time we the people started to stand up and be ready to work for the country as opposed to sponging from it.
Nick, not even a mention of your patronising 'Team Cameron' in this piece? Surely some mistake.
Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with any political party, I vote for who I believe is the best candidate. I infer no direction to other voters
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Those illiterate posters on HYS stating that this shows what the Conservatives r like should ask themselves - do u REALLY want another 5 years of Clown and Co??? - if so vote for them, and REALLY reap the consequences. Anyone in UK politics who tells it as it is - in this case the UK is broke - is in for it by people who want everything and give nothing. Liebour have wrecked UK in just 12 years - someone has to repair it, and I back the Tories ahead of any other party to do just that. I can not listen to any more Liebour lies.
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I'm sure I can recall that when the Government announced policies on inheritance tax and non-doms that were not at all the same as Conservative proposals they were lambasted for plagiarism. So why is there no comment on Osborne and Cameron announcing 'new' policies that are not dissimilar from those already being implemented by the Government?
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derekbarker,
I think the people might find honesty refreshing.
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3. At 1:02pm on 06 Oct 2009, derekbarker
"Vote for us and we'll screw your pension. Vote for us and we'll make your tax credits so complicated you won't realise you're being screwed. Vote for us and, if you work in the public sector, we'll increase your pay right up until your job is cut - and if you work in Whitehall, well, you'll be safe.
That's labour for you.
When you spin something it can go in one of two directions...
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Honest Tory?
Pull the other one
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Its probably a good move. The basic agenda of Labour and Tory is the same so getting a bit of an edge by playing the honesty card may benefit them.
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Bit of a dangerously over-generalised opening paragraph that Nick.
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So the tories continue their adoption of Daily Mail bugbears as policy.
But what will they do when they fimd out that all britains problems are not caused by 'feral yooves''the EU' 'professional unemployed', 'fatcats' public sector workers' and 'overpaid council non-jobs'..
Nevermind, by the time the truth comes out they'll have been elected on an overwhelming wave of populism.
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#5 Sherry!
Your still not listening right JR, The fledgling would-be wants to cut sure start and tax credit per se.
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John Smith was a great politician who, like Gaitskill, had his life cruelly cut short as he was ready to grasp the prize. Both had the trust of the electorate,would have been more than competent Prime Ministers. Instead of Smith, we were offered Kinnock. THAT is why Labour lost in '92
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@ 1. At 12:59pm on 06 Oct 2009, JPSLotus79 wrote:
"Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits..." Errr only if your earning over £50K/pa, in which case I doubt that your children will be left starving as a result of that!
The statement should be why are people earning over £50k/ pa claiming for tax credits under the current government (Even though they have a right to do so). What's the current National debt ? £800b or something, lets get real here money doesn't grow on trees, everyone has to pay for the mistakes of the Bankers and the Labour Party.
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I dislike Osborne, and don't trust him as far as I could throw him. However I do have respect for appearing to say the truth. Its a sad indictment of our present government.
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3. At 1:02pm on 06 Oct 2009, derekbarker wrote:
"Vote for us and we'll delay your pension. Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits. Vote for us and, if you work in the public sector, we'll freeze your pay - and if you work in Whitehall, we might cut your job."
That's the conservatives for you.
===================================================
Of course labour will continue to pay these but you'll have to collect your monopoly money in a wheelbarrow before the ink dries.
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I'd rather have honesty any day. The Labour fools are kidding themselves if they think things will be better under another Labour Government. Look at the gutless announcement from the Chancellor today. He didn't have the courage to announce this policy at the Labour conference. We are in for a period of pain regardless who is in power. I'd prefer to have the pain shared equally and the burden not all placed on the private sector who have so far borne the brunt of this recession. Yes to tax rises, yes to public sector cuts and yet to limits on tax credits. That way we all share the burden.
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Nick,
I know you believe you are "impartial" but the subconcious manner in which your outpourings are constructed leave the reader in no doubt that you are in the Labour corner.
I think it is possibly because you have been on too many jollies abroad on the Prime Ministers jet in close proximity to our unmandated & increasingly out of control Prime Minister.
And when the Tories talk about public sector cuts that they do not leave the BBC out of the cutting.
We simply cannot afford £3 billion+ a year for a national broadcaster to build a global empire at the cost of private sector & tax paying news organisations.
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brilliant message from the tories
apparently any public sector worker earning $18000 p/a or more is currently overpaid.
thats actally less than the natinal average.
still should please the only demographic they seem to care about, daily mail readers.
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Nick
what your saying is it’s a risk telling the British people the truth.
This explains why the Liebour Government have spun themselves into the ground and are treated with derision.
Another proof of their dishonesty has come to light with Brown being caught out playing politics with our service people’s lives, ask General Dannet. This after the treasury document proving the Brown has been lying from the dispatch box.
I also think that the move by Darling last night coming out with policy change that affect many people lives to try and but in on the Tory conference is evidence that people don't matter to this Government they are all expendable in ministers desperation to hang on to their ministerial perks.
So the judgment for the British people is who do you trust?
A party that is trying its best to lay out before the electorate the scope of the damage done and how to fix it?
Or
A party that uses everyone as pawns in a desperate attempt to cling on to power?
The Liebour government have now got themselves into a position that everyone knows is a danger of starting to lie. Once you start lying you are forced to continue with it when everyone can see that you are tying yourself in knots to maintain the lie.
We need change. We need the truth. We need to see the back of this idiotic desperate clapped out Government. And I want see that someone is going to sort out the mess so my children and their children have some sort of future.
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Best get this in quick before the blog closes.
Nick you say:
Thus, the right will not get its 50p tax rate cut while others will see their pay frozen. Thus, no-one on less than £18,000 will have their pay frozen, and baby bonds and child tax credits will still be paid to the poorest.
My, my the Tories are starting a left turn. At least now we can see some clear water between them and NuLabour.
#36 derekbarker (last blog)
By the way Delboy why have those NuLabour numpties just doubled the amount you can save with an ISA, if it creates unemployment.
You are really a neep!
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I dread to think what David Chameleon and George Osborne will do if they get hold of the economy, Brown may not be pretty but he did the business. Cameron will be much more concerned with which tie to wear at the press conference
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For ONCE can you please give an unbiased view.
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3. At 1:02pm on 06 Oct 2009, derekbarker wrote:
"Vote for us and we'll delay your pension. Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits. Vote for us and, if you work in the public sector, we'll freeze your pay - and if you work in Whitehall, we might cut your job."
That's the conservatives for you.
****************************
I take it you have a problem with honesty then!!
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1. At 12:59pm on 06 Oct 2009, JPSLotus79 wrote:
"Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits..." Errr only if your earning over £50K/pa, in which case I doubt that your children will be left starving as a result of that!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I was unaware that you could get any tax credits if you earn over £50,000 since this is the maximum ceiling.
Had mine reduced to zero last year, so I don’t know what Osborne is talking about?
As for the rest of it; Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas do they?
Perhaps we might see Gordon back in number 10 after all.
Keep um coming Ozzy; it will be good to see the smiles wiped off some bloggers faces when they realise it’s their turn to be pinched.
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3#
Derek, wind your neck in, Labour will do the same to you anyway. Stop wasting bandwidth.
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Can I ask you again, Nick, what is Charlie Falconer doing there at the conference?
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"probablynogod wrote:
I'm sure I can recall that when the Government announced policies on inheritance tax and non-doms that were not at all the same as Conservative proposals they were lambasted for plagiarism. So why is there no comment on Osborne and Cameron announcing 'new' policies that are not dissimilar from those already being implemented by the Government?"
Ummm didn't Nick write a blog about it? Which still managed to end up full of people using it to point out how evil the Tories are and how soft and fluffy Labour were.
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we don't get too much crime here in Hampstead (North London) but a couple of months back I did have an intruder in the house - quite a frightening chap too - middle of the afternoon it was
no, I didn't like the look of him one bit ... especially when he started talking to me:
"Hello there, scared little home owner," he said. "I'm now going to steal your HiFi, your espresso machine and your entire collection of Mao figurines, and then on my way out I'm going to make a right old mess on your carpet."
"Thank you for your honesty," I said, trembling and not really meaning it
stuck in my mind, that, so excuse me (won't you?) if I don't join in the applause for "Honest George"
(happy ending, btw, because before he could do anything, my Mum came back from the shops and scared him away)
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#31 Zydol (ouch)
Look! please dont spill any-more of your young conservative communism on us.
Your shadow "PREFECT" blew it.
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#21 "The statement should be why are people earning over £50k/ pa claiming for tax credits under the current government "
So as to make the middle classes think that they have a stake in the survival of the system!
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"3. At 1:02pm on 06 Oct 2009, derekbarker wrote:
"Vote for us and we'll delay your pension. Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits. Vote for us and, if you work in the public sector, we'll freeze your pay - and if you work in Whitehall, we might cut your job."
That's the conservatives for you."
Yes Labour are much better. Vote for us and we'll spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and
and never have to put up taxes or worry where the money comes from.
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The issue that this raises is the extent to which the majority of British people properly understand the severity of the UK's financial crisis.
We have a massive structural public sector deficit/debt problem. The goose that was laying the golden egg - the banking and financial services sector - has been hung by its own petard = a collapse in tax revenues. The housing bubble has burst. The global economy is staggering along with absolutely no certainty that it will lift in the short- or even medium-term. If/when it does, the oil price will soar once again (we've all but run out of the stuff that's cheap to extract and refine) and, hey ho, just watch us spiral back down the economic flume. To all intents and purposes, thanks to Gordon Brown believing his own fantasy about "no-more-boom-n-bust", the UK is now indeed going bust. It seems to me that not enough people have yet grasped this prospect.
There appears to be a significant chunk of our population which is oblivious to even the most basic awareness and understanding of the dire state of our economy, exacerbated by the parlous global situation.
My fear is that unless/until we're in some sort of crisis that directly affects the majority of people (rather than peering at a crisis which may or may not be just around the corner), there is a risk that a critical mass of the population will indeed be scared off by the Tories' announcements.
If I'm right, and the British people vote the Labour Party back into power again, that's the time to head for Canada or somewhere similar. If you can't make Canada, head for the hills: the socio-economic consequences of another 5 years of Gordon Brown's very own brand of deceitful Marxism don't really bear thinking about.
Indeed, the next 5 - 10 years are going to bad enough whichever party gains power; believe me.
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Of course the Conservative budget deficit plans will feed into Labour's "nasty party" narrative, of which I'm sure there will be many examples on this blog.
We know, though, that Labour say they will cut the deficit by half within 4 years, but we know little of their plans. Possibly we will know more by the time of the Pre-Budget Report (buried in the detail somewhere).
Being in my 50s I'm directly affected by the delay in paying the state pension (I know younger people are too, but the loss is further away). So I've lost approx £100 x 52 weeks = %5000.
However, I understand the current deficit is unsustainable and that this is the price to be paid for Labour's economic mismanagement.
This is only the beginning of the agony inflicted by Labour on the British people.
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Where is the gamble? I would say more playing to the daily mail readers prejudice. God what a boring speech, wouldn't vote for him as golf club treasurer let alone chancellor.Where are the so called heavy hitters in the tory party? all we see at present is limp wristed wannabes!
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I see DB is back
I would like to ask what he would think of a parent that went on a massive spending spree and exhausted its own earnings for his life time.
Then carried on and spent more money but committed his children to pay for it.
Then went further and spent even more and bound his unborn grandchildren to pay it off.
All for a party that he wants to have now.
Any person with any decency would view that person with complete and utter contempt.
The name of this person?
One Moron Brown.
As Mandy said he has a Debt addiction.
Remember this is what Labour governments have always done they have destroyed the economy every time they have had power.
The Tories are going to have to clean up the mess Labour have created yet again so the question for Labour supporters is why don’t they learn why can’t they understand the simple truth you can’t spend more than you earning forever?
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Is it really such a gamble Nick ?
With a £175billion deficit big cuts are inevitable. Without them we could lose our triple A credit rating, there will be a sterling crash and the country would go bankrupt
In short we do it or the markets force us to do it
Do you really think that the people of the UK are really so stupid as not to be able to see this?
it is a sad comment on politics to day that stating the obvious truth to the electorate is regarded as a sign of courage clearly they all think we are utterly stupid
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As always, the wealthy will carry on being wealthy and the poor will feel some pain. The public sector will take an unfair share of that pain as this was actually all down to the banks, they all appear now to be getting better, but just not giving us our money back yet, Politicians should bet telling them to start pumping as much back in the treasury as they had received, then let's see if we need to decimate public services. Tories are talking about real guts to tell us 'how it is', but GB took some guts to take the lead in saving this flawed capitalist banking system with the use of Keynesian intervention, without which, we'd all be fighting for bread and if the whole system had collapsed, it would have been very ugly. But then, we wouldn't be blaming the public servants, it would probably be the eastern europeans and Muslims to blame this time, as long as it wasn't the tories. Cameron's plans for the unemployed are just the New Deal that's already there, yeah, let's kick the sick (been done before, being done now); Osbourne, wake me up when my overdraft clears.
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#3, derekbarker wrote:
"Vote for us and we'll delay your pension. Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits. Vote for us and, if you work in the public sector, we'll freeze your pay - and if you work in Whitehall, we might cut your job."
That's the conservatives for you.
Derek,
People voted for Blair/Brown.
- Brown immediately hammered private pension schemes, so very few now offer final salary pensions.
- Brown introduced tax-credits so badly that people were paid - then chased for repayment. Maybe if it were done properly (reducing the cost of operations), there would be more mnney available.
- If you work in public sector, you'll get your pay frozen. According to Darling and Osborne. Tough. If you work in private companies you might by now have lost the job, seen pay cuts, maybe working hour restrictions.
- Sad to say, many jobs just do not warrant existing within Whitehall. Being honest, which would you prefer to fund... a bloke or gal sitting in an expensive chair in a vastly costly Ministry of Defence building, or a front line soldier?
That's the type of choice EVERY party is having to face.
Frankly, I'd take an axe to Special Advisers, reduce pay for management in civil service, QANGOs any public body (including local government). Can't see how that harms "front line folks".
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To no. 1 and others - the child tax credit is not paid based on indvidual income, but based on family income. So it will be cut not just for those individual parents earning £50K (ie about twice the average income), but for FAMILIES earning above £50K. This is perfectly clear from the news story - "Tax credits for families earning more than £50,000 a year would be ended..."
So if both parents are earning the average wage, or in any case if their combined income amounts to the average wage each (ie one parent earns £20K, the other parent earns £30K), their child tax credits will be cut - for some this will amount to hundreds of pounds a year. Obviously far more people will be affected by this than just those individual parents earning £50K.
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16 C6nservative Front benchers are millionaire - Andrew Neil.
The Tories promise tax cuts for the wealthy.
The Tories maitain their policy on inheritance tax increasing wealth for millionares.
+
Public sector pay freezes.
Pay cuts across the board.
25% reduction in disabled persons income
=
Tory recovery policy
Winners: the rich
Losers: the poor or disabled persons
Cause of the recession = wealthy tories
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Maybe this is the most positive spin they can put on it? and maybe it will actually be much worse, who knows? lets all repeat the mantra "We are all in this Together","We are all in this together",... although Some of us will be less "in this together" than others In my view.
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Well Nick. Last week we had a wish list, this week we have an action list.
Yep we sure have some clear water!
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As a 68 year old pensioner who has just returned to work - took me two days to find a job once I started looking - I am trying to make sense out of what is currently being offered by all parties.
My pension having been twice hit by Gordon (his original raid on funds and then the 10% tax fiasco) this year's Council Tax hike, small as it was, finally caused my outgoings to exceed my income.
Both parties appear to be saying that they will at some time restore the pension/earnings link,. But I can find no clue as to when and at what point of the income scale will it be made. Not sure what else is being proposed by any of the parties that might benefit me as a pensioner.
I have therefore been following these blogs hoping to learn from the combined wisdom of those with more savvy than me who contribute to these pages.
Instead, all I find is party politics at its most feral or facts adapted to whatever opinion the blogger wants to get across.
Worst of all is the pure party dogma put out by the profesionals who lurk on these forums. I have even found myself responding in an ungentlemanly to their diatribe. (Which is probably the reaction they want anyway)
There are some sensible posters out there and I relish reading these gems among the rubble. To those I say thank you.
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#34
Fubar
I hear there's a free buffet!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It is no surprise that Nick Robinson cant see any benifit in the Torries trying to be upfront about the hard choices they may make as he has been to close to the spin of new Labour for to long.
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Nick,
You seem to forget that it's the private sector who pay for all these things, and that the majority of people work in the private sector rather than the public sector.
The private sector is funding the bloated public sector pensions/state; the problem is a very simple one:
The private sector does not physically have enough money available to pay for the bloated public sector as it stands; the current situation is unsustainable and by definition will lead to total national economic bankruptcy if we continue with the labour approach.
For every public sector worker who gets their pension value lowered, there'll be 5 private sector workers who say "about time; brown raided my private pension; why should I pay for a bloated unrealistic public pension of a public sector worker?"
The risk, as you put it, is not a risk at all because the vast majority of people who'd be adversely effected by it would be union members, public sector workers, and the unemployed, who would mostly vote labour even if labour promised to drop a nuke on london.
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"Vote for us and we'll delay your pension.......That's the conservatives for you"
And didn't Labour [and specifically Brown] destroy a good many people's pensions with the tax on dividends immediately after they gained office?
And Nick, surely the electoral gamble was from Brown who, at Labour's conference, threw sweeties around and hoped the voters wouldn't realise that they will have to pay for them and that we can't afford them anyway.
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#46
There's no need for a conspicuous mind here. The young fledgling didn't throw an honest dice as much as a joker card. His speech was riddled with the flavour of 1978 conservative tripe, in as much as they believe there is no such thing as society and provisional help.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#29 - what planet do you live on? Gordon did the business of ruining the wonderful economy he created and built a massive bubble on housing prices being unchecked and too much money in the economy. We now have the massive bust. You really should stop reading Labour Party propaganda - it's incredibly badly written fiction
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30#
Don't hold your breath.
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"The British nation is unique in this respect. They are the only people who like to be told how bad things are, who like to be told the worst."
Sir Winston Churchill, Hansard, June 10, 1941
Now, we shall see which the British people prefer. The Tories harsh truth or Labour lies.
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Before the financial meltdown Labour were borrowing £35 billion a year. This was down to Gordon Brown, who foolishly thought revenue from the financial institutions would keep on increasing. IT WAS NOT SUSTAINABLE!!!
It's a bitter pill to swallow but huge cuts have to be made.
LET'S HAVE SOME TRUTH BROWN, DARLING & MANDLESON!!!!!!
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Nick, let's be honest here. Your first paragraph is disgraceful and should have been moderated!
The Conservatives are a political party just as are Labour and there objective is to be in power. Personally there are very few politicians that I like or trust and we all know that there will be more pain whoever is in charge from next spring. We also know that the Conservatives will make many mistakes but this current lot will have had nearly 13 years in power by the time of the next election. I hate what they have done to my country and want someone else to try and fix what they have broken. It will not be either easy or quick but I know Labour cannot do it. Under the Conservatives at least we have a small chance!
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"taxedintotheground wrote:
brilliant message from the tories
apparently any public sector worker earning $18000 p/a or more is currently overpaid.
thats actally less than the natinal average."
If the Tories felt there were overpaid wouldn't they have recommended a pay CUT rather than a pay freeze. Many people in the private sector have had to face a pay cut/freeze because companies are trying to cut costs - so why should the public sector expect year on year pay rises?
And what does the average wage have to do with it? The average wage is just that an average. Someone on the average wage could be overpaid if their pay is higher than the value of their job.
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15
I see.
So it is your contention that Cameron, Osborne and Co are telling unpopular untruths?
That would certainly be a new approach. Just not sure that anyone is that stupid.
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Portcullis Gate - u illustrated EXACTLY why Liebour will be kicked out and those posters from Liebour on HYS = barker - saga - etc MUST be from a Liebour office somewhere - not planet Earth obviously!!!!
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It's that time again, let's all just have a go at the Tories, that's what the BBC is all about in the political debate when Nick, in his position, appears to be slating the Tories for saying something that most of us acknowledge as needing to be done. What does the editor think of this bias that seems to appear quite often?
Although the real point is, as you say Nick, this is no ordinary time. Under the current government, they already have plans to do the same thing, they're just choosing to keep most of what they say behind closed doors so that they can continue to hide the truths from us that we all need to hear.
Yes, I'm upset as I'm sure many people are with how things are going to be but under New Labour I accepted years back that my future is in trouble. I expect to be working until I fall over dead under current government objectives so why should it be that different with the Tories in charge. I'd rather have someone talking out about it than having the current Cowards in charge again.
We are all in this together, in fact it's the one thing New Labour have done in bringing the entire nation together by way of its policies. We are united in Recession and united in our disgust of New Labour.
Gordon has stated that he's the man for tough choices but does nothing and he's the one in charge (says it all really), whereas the moment we have someone unable to currently do anything being part of the Shadow Cabinet but speaking out about the tough choices the Tories will make is at least a refreshing touch and somehow this is portrayed in a negative way.
If Brown and Darling were working for me I would have sacked them by now. As the saying goes "All bark but no bite" and that summarises Labour right now, they're all about talking themselves up as the government of responsibility, of the people, of the future, etc. Yeah right, I've never seen so much garbage fall out of someone's mouth upon opening it.
We need far more openness and honesty on these issues but where Gordon has made promises, we all know what he has in store for the country. The foundations of New Labour are crumbling and the glorious paintwork brought to us by Blair is all falling down to reveal what really lay beneath that wonderful work. No amount of gloss is enough to cover up the problems the people see.
I want the truth and I want honesty. I doubt any politician will be able to deliver but speaking out and acknowledging an issue is better than denial. New Labour are in denial, they're not just Underdogs, they're old dogs that have been taught too many tricks and just can't seem to operate in any other way.
I work for the NHS, and if New Labour are all about the services, the people, the Public Sector, about investment, etc. Why am I not voting Labour at the next election?
A vote for Labour is quite literally a vote for Labour, they're very good at only looking after their own but don't seem that bothered about everyone else.
#14
"Vote for us and we'll screw your pension. Vote for us and we'll make your tax credits so complicated you won't realise you're being screwed. Vote for us and, if you work in the public sector, we'll increase your pay right up until your job is cut - and if you work in Whitehall, well, you'll be safe."
I like that, I could add more to it but I just can't be bothered right now and that summary works nicely. The truth most definitely hurts and that's why Gordon likes to be seen as the Hero, the one who covers up the truth so that people will never find out..........that plan didn't work too well.
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"beardedshrimper wrote:
I dread to think what David Chameleon and George Osborne will do if they get hold of the economy, Brown may not be pretty but he did the business. Cameron will be much more concerned with which tie to wear at the press conference"
Yes, Brown did the business that is why we are in this mess. He did his "business" all over the nations economy. To be fair to the Tories the only way they could do worse is if they decided to go down to a track and put all our money on a near-dead nag.
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3. At 1:02pm on 06 Oct 2009, derekbarker
Convenient then, for Mr. Robinson to assist so ably with a context-free one-liner.
'...they will be rewarded for being open, up-front and honest about the pain that lies ahead."
Just about to fire an agency who won my aging Mum's business by promising high and delivering... so far... sod all. If I can do more, I will hurt them any way I can for putting their petty job prospects above her best interests. It's cost her a fortune and, ironically, made them nothing whilst costing them dear in reputation.
It's not supposed to be about 'not being Labour', but in the current climate, and the mood of those around me here at least, I'd say it's less about 'reward' and more about pragmatism.
Anyone who promises milk, honey + perks and swans off on index-linked into the sunset having conned those who fund them might be well advised to avoid lamp posts near hardware shops.
But maybe not a view carefully (I am sure) 'selected' for sharing by Sian and Co on BBC Breakfast this morning. Pretty much all from 50 year old folk who were now livid and not voting Conservative.
I just wonder how many were/are from those who were/are no longer set to enjoy the fruits of a 'someone else will pay; they always have' job and mindset, and those not in uniquely-funded organisations.
Almost a conflict of interest to go beyond reporting to such commentary to enhance the narrative, one might argue.
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#3 Del boy
Just what are you and your spiv mates going to do? tell us it's all OK, and borrow a few 100 billion more whilst the pawnbrokers are still open?
Do grow up, and add a bit of sense to the debate. Oh, who am I talking to?
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@notfooledsteve. Dear Steve. From the sound of it you've been fooled for the last 12 years. Don't worry, you've got plenty of company. Staying delusional despite the overwhelming evidence of corruption and incompetence by the incumbent govt,- now THAT'S something to worry about.
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"47. At 1:52pm on 06 Oct 2009, stevepeers wrote:
To no. 1 and others - the child tax credit is not paid based on indvidual income, but based on family income. So it will be cut not just for those individual parents earning £50K (ie about twice the average income), but for FAMILIES earning above £50K. This is perfectly clear from the news story - "Tax credits for families earning more than £50,000 a year would be ended..."
So if both parents are earning the average wage, or in any case if their combined income amounts to the average wage each (ie one parent earns £20K, the other parent earns £30K), their child tax credits will be cut - for some this will amount to hundreds of pounds a year. Obviously far more people will be affected by this than just those individual parents earning £50K"
But a family where both parents each earn £25,000 are aleady MUCH better off than a family where one parent earns £50k and the other nothing because of personal allowances and higher rate tax. A quick back of the fag-packet calculation puts the 'dual income' family approx £2,600 per year better off, so there is no merit in trying to paint the picture as blacker because it will affect dual income families.
How can you justify a single man earning £20,000 a year paying part of his taxes to a dual income family on combined £50,000 or indeed any family with £50,000 coming in?
Well done the Tories. Managing to cut benefits for the BETTER off and still somehow attracting criticism from labour supporters.
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How about all the hangers on that we the tax payer pay for under the auspices of advisers to ministers etc.
The civil service are there to advise and are credited with being the best brains in the country worth mega salaries and pensions. If they cant provide unbiased advise and research then sack them.
Perhaps that is the rub the special advisers are doing labour party work at tax payers expense? Expenses scandal et al and more.
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37. At 1:42pm on 06 Oct 2009, derekbarker wrote:
#31 Zydol (ouch)
Look! please dont spill any-more of your young conservative communism on us.
Your shadow "PREFECT" blew it.
******************************************
Au Contraire Derek. My vote is up for grabs. What I am looking for is someone to convince me, in a grown up way, that I should vote for them.
At the moment all I read, with some exceptions, is over the top shouted criticism of 'the other party' but few good reasons why I should support whichever mob the shouter alleges to represent.
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With the propect of "New" Clowns appearing to take charge of the U.K. in the form of the Conservative Party, we have to address 2 Issues.
Progress, and Timeing.
Firstly, will the measures announced by the Conservatives work to reduce Unemployment in the short to medium Term, given that George Osbourne has said that he will be making Cuts of One-Third across all Whitehall Departments.
Now if you are today Working in any of these Whitehall Departments will you. [1]. Take Early Retirement, Or: [2]. Hope that your Name is not chosen for the Chop, with perhaps a reduced Private Pension? And indeed how will making YOU Unemployed help to reduce Unemployment?
With the statement of the State Retirement Age rising to 66 Years from 65 by 2016, this of course may effect everybody, and in doing so will ensure that once again our Younger Generation will be Unemployable for longer, for while expecting everyone to stay on in Employment until 66 will mean that any shortage of Job's available can only be fewer for all at any given time, and further also add into this mix, the fact that under New Laws everyone will have a Legal Right to stay on in Employment beyond State Retirement Age.
Now, hands up, how many of you do a manual labouring Job, and if you do how many of you are a Fit [ and I mean Fit ], 65 Year old in a heavy duty Job such as Hod-Carrying on a Building Site who can still match the output of a 20 something Year Old, and Millionaires George and David want this already 65 Year Old to toll on another Year until he reaches 66 Years of Age.
For if this is Progess, and Timing then how many of the People who write these Blog's will put their Names down to take on this task if are made Unemployed, and sent to do such a Job if THEY, and by they I mean you are at anytime now before you reach 66 are made Unemployed.
My guess would be that most People won't last a Day never mind a Year Hod-Carrying, for it well known in ALL Sector of Heavy Industry [ whats left, and that is not much], that Manual Labourers are at best knackered already by the time the reach 65, having in many Cases worked on Building Sites, or in the Railway [P/W] Permanent Way since thay left School at 16.
If you think life is easy for Manual Workers George and David well give it a try, for you won't have any energy left over either at the beginning or the end of the Day to go out running.
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"sagamix wrote:
we don't get too much crime here in Hampstead (North London) but a couple of months back I did have an intruder in the house - quite a frightening chap too - middle of the afternoon it was
no, I didn't like the look of him one bit ... especially when he started talking to me:
"Hello there, scared little home owner," he said. "I'm now going to steal your HiFi, your espresso machine and your entire collection of Mao figurines, and then on my way out I'm going to make a right old mess on your carpet."
"Thank you for your honesty," I said, trembling and not really meaning it"
Had to be a Conservative thief as a Labour thief would have robbed you blind, cleared out your bank accounts, opened up a few credit agreements in your name, sold your house to your neighbours, messed your carpet and got out before you noticed only to return and point to the Conservatie thief and say "It's all his fault"
My election slogan "Labour, you just can't trust them!" to go along with "Conservatives, you probably can't trust them either!"
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"The incoming government will be left a debt mountain higher than anything previously seen in this country. People who understand maths will realise that spending will have to be reduced to cover that."
That explains where the Labour 27% poll rating comes from then...
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52#
Someone on Guido did suggest it might be for the sausages... might result in an unseemly scrabble between him and Eric Pickles!
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Hopefully the lefty BBC will be first for the cuts---into the real world Thompson [maybe he will have to wear a tie now and shave off his beard!! ] and Robinson-your friends in New Labour cannot save you now !!!ha !!ha !!
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Whats all the screaming for ,Like on the previous blog the pension age for woman the pension age for men ?
Why bother what ever the Tory's do .Labor will just pinch the pot like they did with it before.
Any one seen any gold lately?
Secondly there will be barely any money two squander if its nulabour any where in office.
Get real people.
Stop throwing items in the wood pile theres enough rubbish in there as it is.
The time is rapidly approaching when some serious and hard decisions will have two take place the British public have seen through nulabour and the tide of change is rapidly approaching.
Call an election brown.
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38#
And I thought you were intelligent by some of your postings earlier on. Turns out you're just another dogwhistler.
How the hell can you blame it on a party that hasnt been in power for 12 years??
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"45. At 1:50pm on 06 Oct 2009, FrankandTomsDad wrote:
The public sector will take an unfair share of that pain"
In my firm, no-one has received a payrise this year. No-one. Not just a pay freeze for those over £18k. the only people whose income is changing are the owners and their income has gone down because profits are down. It was either that or job cuts.
That's the private sector. That's the real world. No pay rises by 'right', no union leaders screeching about "de weeerkers' demands".
Next year, after the Tories get in, things will get better, I'm sure.
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"In the past, politicians have learned to their cost that honesty is not always the best policy."
Really? I'm only in my mid-forties myself, so I guess I'm not old enough to remember when politicians tried honesty. Perhaps someone older than me or with a decent knowledge of history could explain what happened the last time politicians experimented with honesty?
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The Tories are telling you what they think needs to be done. Labour won't tell you what needs to be done but will do the same anyway.
I've no doubt that Labour hypocrisy and spin will come to the fore by accusing the Tories of pandering to the rich while caning the poor, while still insisting that making us bankrupt will save the country.
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@48
How exactly are the tories the cause of the recession when they havent been in power for the last 12 years?
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44#
"Do you really think that the people of the UK are really so stupid as not to be able to see this?"
So it would seem, particularly from some of the evidence on here. They deserve all they get.
Anyone with any grey matter still intact would be well advised to head for the departure terminals at Heathrow.
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It is amazing how many people respond by using the spin words of Labour about not trusting a Tory and how evil they are and will be.
So at least George Osborne told us it is going to hurt and all of us will feel the effects. That at least is what I would call shared responsibility and acceptance of the problem we have.
Do not forget that prior to the Banking crisis we as a country already had a huge debt and it was still growing. The Banking crisis just made it worst. Labour blame the banking crisis for all of the debt we have. that is just blatant lies.
So for all of those people who shout about how the Labour Party have given us sound financial management, just go back one year and you will see we were in it up to our necks, courtesy of Labours need to SPEND, SPEND AND SPEND, so much so that now it is like a drug and they cannot fix the habit.Sorry New Labour or whatever you are it's time to go as this massive problem needs to be taken seriously and tackled quickly.
A lot to be said for getting over the pain as quick as possible. R.I.P. Labour.
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36
Saga, I assume from your irrelevent little anecdote that you would not have been concerned if he had said "don't worry, I'm not going to steal anything and will not make a mess on your carpet," while he busily does just that?
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#57 Del boy Barker
Conspicuous, mind, absence of cohesive thought. If it doesn't exist, just make it up and shout it out often, tricks you learned from Campy and Mandy no doubt.
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Why a massive Gamble Nick? Surely he is doing what we want of ALL our politicians and being honest?!
Do you think the electorate are not intelligent enough to understand the huge problem Labour has got the country in and that very hard decisions/cuts are required to rectify the situation?
Well done George for highlighting the new Conservatism under Cameron within his announcements, unlike Gordon who as usual fluffed it by promising what he cannot deliver.
Interesting to see a reference to public sector pension pots as well....this off-balance sheet liability needs to be tackled and fast otherwise there will be more and more uproar from private sector people who are paying for it and who have had their pensions decimated again by Labour over the years (remember the tax credit heist?)
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PS any one seen the golden goose You remember him the one that lays the golden egg.
Any one seen baroness of Scotland lately
Or Mrs Harman for that matter?
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#36 sagamix
Well, well saga what a small world.
For months everybody passing my house have been knocking on my door. When I answer it they say “I am going to vote for anyone but NuLabour” and toddle off.
After a while I got brassed of with it and stopped answering the door. But the cheeky beggars when I don’t answer shout it through the letterbox…. ”Anybody but NuLabour”.
I have literally lost count how many.
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"loquitir wrote:
16 C6nservative Front benchers are millionaire - Andrew Neil."
And the Labour front bench are all paupers? There are millionaires in both parties, but somehow Labour supporters always seem to ignore this.
"The Tories promise tax cuts for the wealthy.
The Tories maitain their policy on inheritance tax increasing wealth for millionares."
Now I was taught that the 's' at the end of a word indicated that it was plural - one tax which wouldn't just effect the wealthy is hardly cuts.
I am not a wealthy person but if you take into account the value of my house, life insurance policy payouts + death benefits from my company my estate would probably be over the tax threshold! My parents would also be over the threshold because of the value of their house which has increased massively since they bought it.
"Public sector pay freezes.
Pay cuts across the board.
"
Pay freezes or cuts are already taking place in the private sector as profits are down - "profits" are down in the public sector due to lower tax take and higher benefit costs, isn't it time that the public sector work force suffered just a little like the rest of us?
"25% reduction in disabled persons income"
Ummm no, this is a reduction in the income of someone who is on IB but shouldn't be, people who actually are disabled will remain on IB.
"Tory recovery policy
Winners: the rich
Losers: the poor or disabled persons"
Winners (if they pull it off): All of us as we won't end up being taxed until the pips squeek
Losers (if they pull it off): Labour
If they don't pull it off than we will probably all be losers - just as we will be if Labour get in again.
"Cause of the recession = wealthy tories"
Nope the cause of the recession had more to do with Labour than the Tories who were the opposition, and even Labour aren't entirely to blame for the problems. Maybe you should do a little research into the issue you might actually learn something.
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29. At 1:35pm on 06 Oct 2009, beardedshrimper wrote:
I dread to think what David Chameleon and George Osborne will do if they get hold of the economy, Brown may not be pretty but he did the business. Cameron will be much more concerned with which tie to wear at the press conference
---------------------------------------
I presume when Brown "did the business" on the economy you mean in the same way my neighbour's cat "does his business" on my lawn?
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I am not a diehard labour stooge so at least I can give a realistic view on what I heard from George Osborne.
It was a well crafted speech that set out many of the problems facing the country that most of us in the real world now recognise. Truthful without being scary.
Everyone is going to have to give some if the next generation aren't going to be baying for our blood for leaving the country in an unholy big mess for them.
The thinking behind it all cleared up any illusions some may still have that there is some sort of quick fix. Indeed it showed that their thinking is long term which should give everyone more confidence that there is a way out of this. Those who are still in denial will no doubt remain that way.
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#57 giggletheloneranger
You should listen to Fubar.
You really are a waste of banbdwidth.
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Do you think politicians make policy decisions on the basis of two great spreadsheets. One calculating the deficit, and the other (more importantly) how many votes are on balance one or lost. Its not that its unfair that those on over £50k lose it (in my opinion they wont notice too much unless they have 5 kids), its about how many of those would switch their vote. Clearly they are all scared of women voters to push back retirement for men and not women.
And how many voters are there sitting on more than £600k value in their house they want to leave to their children? There are very few voters that would see a direct benefit from the money raised currently who could object..it will just do more to distort the rich vs poor kid life outcomes in future.
I wonder what the balance is, what is a vote worth against increase in deficit.
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47
Indeed, hard times. In an ideal situation, this would not be necessary.
But then I'm also a believer in doing only what you can afford to do. Why oh why should the average tax payer have to contribute to raising someone else's child?
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I can remember many years ago being told by a wise old sage that voting Conservative was just like making love with a Durex: safer but you're still getting ******.
With the Labour Party now on the right,the Tories moving towards the left and the LibDems all over the place no wonder the political scene is in such turmoil!!!
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Well that's sealed the deal for me; either the tories get in and actually do something about the wrost debt crisis in British history or the general public lose the stomachfor the fight, vote newlabour back in for more of the same mess, and you leave the country.
Quite a thrilling time really; will the message finally get home to newlabour apologists all over the country that we cannot goi on spending money we don't have or we will soon be bankrupt?
The debate has moved on, skillfully, from nurses and teachers to are people really serious about joining in to sort out newlabour's mess? Or do they want to pretend?
Might as well have an election now to see if people have the stomach for it.
Call one.
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What amazes me in reading the partisan blog and raving postings on an irregular basis is the vitriol that is generated. Who is this Derek Barker bloke, why is he so unerring in his posts.
god knows what hope there is...
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#48 loquitir wrote:
"25% reduction in disabled persons income"
Are you the same person who wrote quite interesting posts on this subject yesterday? Now we have the wicked Tories narrative. The mask of objectivity has slipped.
To my knowledge, the Conservatives are not proposing any cuts in the income of disabled persons. They are proposing to move people who are fit to work from incapacity benefit to the unemployment register.
Is this Labour policy as well?
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"greatHayemaker wrote:
15
I see.
So it is your contention that Cameron, Osborne and Co are telling unpopular untruths?
That would certainly be a new approach. Just not sure that anyone is that stupid."
At last count 27% of the population were that stupid, which is slightly down from last week when their leader had his little talk!
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I wont vote for these toffs, they are subliminally racist, still pandering to their Daily Fail and Sun readers who constantly pander to the belief of immigrants taking their jobs and commiting crimes.
Wow pay cuts for all public sector workers earning over 18k, yes Mr Cameron you try living in the Tory run city of London and see how far 18k takes you.
Pension age increased? It's a plan basically to kill off older people, the older we get, the more we work, the more we kill off our body earlier then it would. No need to pay for pensions once all the old codgers die i guess.
Tax credits cut for those earning over 50k, yeah it would be a great move if those earning over 50k could claim tax credits, which they can't.
For those saying this is a honest statement from the Tories, think again it's laidled with half-truths and more spin than Labour.
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The Conservatives seem to have a narrow view based on saving money. They cannot see that sometimes spending less can end up costing more see 1979-1997 which led to 1997-?. They cannot look at the bigger picture. In business you can't hoard all your cash, you need to invest it to improve. so why is it a good idea for government? I get the impression that Osborne has an ambition to become a lion tamer. He even sounds like that character. This penny pinching government leading to overspend government(to catch up) needs to stop. This is running country not an intellectual battle of Dogma's.
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Nick I am surprised that the Tories are announcing their policies the cross-dressers will be using their clothes by next week. After all they did the same with the BNP policies!
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in my view we are making this way too complicated, in order to fix the problem just a SINGLE measure is required ... an increase in Income Tax
I've run the numbers and am pleased to report that the following does the trick:
under 10k ... NIL
10k to 25k ... 25 pc
25k to 50k ... 40 pc
over 50k ... 50 pc
we can then forget about all the "cutting this, slicing that, savaging the other" type stuff (which is getting us absolutely nowhere, as I think we're all starting to realise)
benefits of the "Do it with Tax" approach:
- simple and easy to understand (honesty/transparency)
- piece of cake to implement (no "consultants" needed)
- protects public services (thank god)
- redistributive (always a good thing)
- stimulating (at the bottom end)
it would also impress the bond markets (and conserve our "not as important as people are always making out" AAA rating) but you can't have everything, can you? ... I'm sure we can manage to upset them some other way
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#72 zydec0
It's very clear that Osborne has decided if elected to end tax credit,
which in turn would wipe of something like £40 per week on pensionable age state pensions.
I see Fubar now! moving the goal posts, following that speech.
LoL ubar.
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another piece of Nick Robinson Labour spin ! Balance ? Not on the BBC !
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well done george, someone had to start telling it how it is, we all know you only scratched the surface of what we really need to do, but people have been so comfortable for so long the shock would be to much to take all at once. people and the public sector have to start to understand it is not the government that creates our wealth that provides all our services, and public sector jobs. it is not a compulsory right that we are all entitled to all the benefits that we as a nation have built. It is the private sector that make all of this possible, so think about it, not only have they lost the bulk of employment, they have had their wages frozen, hours cut,(some voluntarily to protect their jobs)so it's only right that the public sector have the same pain.
it is the job of governement to manage the finance raised, to promote our country,etc something this labour government has been woeful at every turn.
here's a small snapshot
Labour’s legacy, lest we forget:-
* £22,500 of debt for every child born in Britain
* 111 tax rises from a government that promised no tax rises at all
* The longest national tax code in the world
* 100,000 million pounds drained from British pension funds
* Gun crime up by 57%
* Violent crime up 70%
* The highest proportion of children living in workless households anywhere in Europe
* The number of pensioners living in poverty up by 100,000
* The lowest level of social mobility in the developed world
* The only G7 country with no growth this year
* One in six young people neither earning nor learning
* 5 million people on out-of –work benefits
* Missing the target of halving child poverty
* Ending up with child poverty rising in each of the last three years instead
* Cancer survival rates among the worst in Europe
* Hospital-acquired infections killing nearly three times as many people as are killed on the roads
* Falling from 4th to 13th in the world competitiveness league
* Falling from 8th to 24th in the world education rankings in maths
* Falling from 7th to 17th in the rankings in literacy
* The police spending more time on paperwork than on the beat
* Fatal stabbings at an all-time high
* Prisoners released without serving their sentences
* Foreign prisoners released and never deported
* 7 million people without an NHS dentist
* Small business taxes going up
* Business taxes raised from among the lowest to among the highest in Europe
* Tax rises for working people set for after the election
* The 10p tax rate abolished
* And the ludicrous promise to have ended boom and bust
* Our gold reserves sold for a quarter of their worth
* Our armed forces overstretched and under-supplied
* Profitable post offices closed against their will
* One of the highest rates of family breakdown in Europe
* The ‘Golden Rule’ on borrowing abandoned when it didn’t fit
* Police inspectors in 10,Downing Street
* Dossiers that were dodgy
* Mandelson resigning the first time
* Mandelson resigning the second time
* Mandelson coming back for a third time
* Bad news buried
* Personal details lost
* An election bottled
* A referendum denied,
curtesy of 'lest we forget' guido blog.
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Yes - the Tories are back! AT last real plans for tackling this economic mess.
You have more of a chance of achieving success on your own merits with the Tories than you ever did or do with Labour.
Havign just read the comments on HYS it reads like a Labour manifesto pledge - 'We don't like people who makes loads of money because they are richer than us!' type of comment is exactly the reason we are in this mess at the moment.
Ignore the fact that people who actually have made something of themselves by working 60 hour weeks, risking their house and marriages to achieve it. No, as Labour supporters 'we don't like people who are successful and have money - lets take all of their hard earned cash and throw it into the bottomless pit of welfare!', 'If I am too lazy to make something of myself then why should they have it!'
So lets stop enterprise and entrepreneurism that could actually create the employment we need and so generate the income that this country so badly needs.
Bring in more red tape, increase the minimum wage so that it becomes unprofitable for fledgling businesses to employ people, lean on the bankers and reduce their risk by preventing investment, stop any awkward questions during the employment process and make sure at least 50 percent of the people you employ are women and most earn as much as any man, regardless of whether or not they can actually do the job! - Vote Labour
Oh hang on - thats what's been happening for the last 12 years.
Honesty?! What a breath of fresh air. Now maybe we might have a chance to lift this country out of this shirkers paradise.
Now that someone has finally realised that this money has to be paid back (thank you George) we can actually start getting this country back to where it should be. Everyone should have the opportunity to generate wealth for themselves and their families.
Oh gosh - now I have upset the Labour supporters. But its ok - because it actually means that if they are earning more, then they are paying more in tax! It's funny but that is how percentages work!
Come on Tories - lets get it going again and ignore these whingeing 'it's not fair!' Labourites who after 12 years still manage to whinge about their lot.
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In this together ?? Gideon is a multi millionaire...whats he got in common with the average public servant- he earns in interest in a month what many dream of in a year.In it for his ego is more like it. And what if the chance of inheriting his fathers Baronetcy comes up...Hell be out of the commons in a shot. In it together, don't make me laugh, cos it just isn't funny. I for one am getting very, very worried.
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67#
"It's that time again, let's all just have a go at the Tories, that's what the BBC is all about in the political debate when Nick, in his position, appears to be slating the Tories for saying something that most of us acknowledge as needing to be done. What does the editor think of this bias that seems to appear quite often?"
Alpha, that ship has sailed, many, many, many months ago..... because he, Young Nicholas, IS the Editor.
I'm sure it will explain everything.
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"calmandhope wrote:
@48
How exactly are the tories the cause of the recession when they havent been in power for the last 12 years?"
Yeah, that is the point I don't get either, it would be like someone who had ran into a parked car and just drove off blaming the person who owned the car before them.
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Something has to be done. The UK PLC card has maxed out and the bank manager is breathing down our neck.
Cut NHS costs to pay off debt, IMF warns Britain.
Britain was served notice by the International Monetary Fund today that reforms to healthcare and pensions will be needed to repair the long-term damage to public finances caused by the global recession.
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. At 1:02pm on 06 Oct 2009, derekbarker wrote:
"Vote for us and we'll delay your pension. Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits. Vote for us and, if you work in the public sector, we'll freeze your pay - and if you work in Whitehall, we might cut your job."
That's the conservatives for you.
That's also New Labour for you, but at least The Conservatives are giving you the truth and not aload of spin
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#48
Andrew Neil said 'Welcome to the Daily Politics show!'
12 Years of Government
12 Years of spin, mainpulation and lying
+
Taxing Pension schemes and robbing the innocent of their pensions
Highest record of Company liquidations within any government term
Highest unemployment figures
+
Two wars - neither equipped properly
Biggest investment in Public Services with worst results
+
Biggest sale of Gold Reserves for smallest return
highest immigration figures
etc etc etc
Cause of the recession = A regulatory body that failed to regulate, the withdrawal of power from the Bank of England and profligacy by the government despite the warning signs. Or Labour if you like.
Penalising the poor
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For once, Nick, I think your commentary is fairly balanced, but some of the comments on this blog are quite extraordinary. I wonder how many of the labour supporters realise that Atlee, the PM who oversaw the introduction of the welfare state, was an old Etonian, and his cabinet reputedly had more Etonians than any other cabinet of any party. I wonder how many also realise that entry to Eton is now very much exam based, and many in the upper classes moan that their children cannot get in.
What I do find extraordinary in Osbourne's list is that child benefit, paid to all, and winter fuel allowance for those over 60 are apparently to remain tax free. As a conservative supporter, and someone earning over 50k, I have long thought it unfair that these benefits are not at least taxed. Perhaps they should be taxable at the excess of the marginal tax rate over the basic rate at least.
Otherwise, thank heaven for an honest assessment of where we are economically, and I only hope that all the highly overpaid, self appointed overgrown middle managers in the public sector, NHS trust managers and the like, are worrying that the gravy train may be about to end, plus all the special advisers, consultants and the rest. Value for money? - not in the nulab vocabulary.
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What is better - Brown's dishonesty or Osborne's candour? I know which I prefer.
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#82 Andy C555
You're lucky, we've had a 20% pay cut here, AND over 700 jobs lost, still mustn't grumble...
As a nation we had better learn to start making things and exporting them again, still with the Euro/Pound getting closer to parity maybe things will swing in our favour if we have any manufacturing industry left to take advantage.
The price of low inflation (import everything from China) is now being paid for.
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#108 Barker
I'm amazed at the lucidity of your mind. You clearly see things we don't. Have you thought about going anywhere to see if there's a cure?
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#105 dhwilkinson wrote: In business you can't hoard all your cash, you need to invest it to improve. so why is it a good idea for government?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Nobody is saying it is - just that many have been pointing out for years that Labour has been spending way more than the tax income received.
This leveraging business model used by Labour is that used by hedge funds and private equity firms - are they the examples you want a responsible government to follow?
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more of the usual tripe from the usual suspects. Hope Charlie lets them go home soon so the rest of us can return to normal.
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Osborne's wants to link the retirement age to the housing market and extend mortgage payments by 10 to i5 years.
Not a new idea to extend mortgage payments, in fact many do it now! it's was a labour initiative, to help people in these difficult times but I'm afraid that young Osborne wants to hand the banks a more sinister way of upping their anti.
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#107 Sagamix
What a racy life you lead for a pensioner in N London. Run the numbers have you? Makes sense does it? have you factored in the number of people who might earn 50k or more will be inclined to stay here here and dig you and your profligate solialist mates out of the big financial holw that they dug?
Well, have you?
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110. At 2:42pm on 06 Oct 2009, tisfedup wrote:
well done george, someone had to start telling it how it is, we all know you only scratched the surface of what we really need to do, but people have been so comfortable for so long.
------------------------------------
Yes, how true, the Conservatives will put an end to everyone, with the exception of the already Rich from feeling comfortable if they win.
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Ah, but what they say before they get in and what they do afterwards is the crux.
I think we should treat incoming governments as most businesses treat new employees.
Take them on a six month trial and if they don't do what they promised, then out they go!
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"Yeah, that is the point I don't get either, it would be like someone who had ran into a parked car and just drove off blaming the person who owned the car before them." Mark-We
What, someone driving along the road, possibly on a mobile phone, crashing into a parked car and then driving off without leaving her details??
Who could you possible mean?
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110
tisfedup
Where's the Iraq war in your list? Oh, sorry, the Tories voted for that too, didn't they? They're really very similar to New Labour when you think about it. David Cameron's such a 'fan' of Tony Blair who's to say he wouldn't have run the country exactly the same way i.e. In to the ground?
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sagamix 107
So, you've "run the numbers" have you? I bet!
How much extra, to the nearest billion, does your modification to the tax system bring in?
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"sagamix wrote:
in my view we are making this way too complicated, in order to fix the problem just a SINGLE measure is required ... an increase in Income Tax
I've run the numbers and am pleased to report that the following does the trick:
under 10k ... NIL
10k to 25k ... 25 pc
25k to 50k ... 40 pc
over 50k ... 50 pc"
Any party who even suggested a 40% tax rate at 25K would be laughed out of town, and you wouldn't have to earn that much to end up paying more tax.
The only level of your tax bandings that makes sense is the first one (and the Labour government really should already have done that IMO you shouldn't pay tax until you earn more than the level of the value of the minimum wage x number of working hours in a year)
Would be much fairer if the tax take was:
under 10k ... Nil
10k to 20k ... 10 pc
20k to 30k ... 20 pc
30k to 40k ... 30 pc
40k to 50k ... 40 pc
over 50k ... 50 pc
This would mean that the vast majority of people would actually be better off (by a long way) but at the expense of the (fairly) wealthy.
"- simple and easy to understand (honesty/transparency)
- piece of cake to implement (no "consultants" needed)
- protects public services (thank god)
- redistributive (always a good thing)
- stimulating (at the bottom end)"
If you want to make things simple perhaps we should remove all benefits altogether and give people a "citizen's wage" regardless of status anything they earn on top of that would be theirs (after tax of course).
However, I am surprised you seem happy that this is a piece of cake to implement as that would mean major job losses in the tax gathering part of the government - public sector workers out of work? The lefties will have your membership card for such a Tory idea.
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Sir,
The Tories seem to have missed the boat a wee bit regarding pensions and yet again have misread what it is that the public would really like from the state with regard to the pensions system, most people you would agree, would continue to work after 65 if they had the choice, whether to retire or not. Then why not have a system that allows people to work if they want to and defer taking a state pension until they actually retire, semi retirement could be catered for too as would any one who had had enough and wished to retire at 65. my point is the state should accomidate choice by the indiviual by not paying out pensions to those who choose to work on, or a reduced pension to those who wish to semi retire the government would still collect taxes and save the state a fortune in pensions payouts from the most experienced and reliable members of the workforce. of course those who wish to retire at 65 can, and would still get the full state pension. Im sure choice for the indiviual and a win win situation for all including the public purse would be much more welcome than a simple increase in retirement age.
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115#
And thats in the Grauniad?!
Not that you'll hear a squeak out of the oxygen thief, class warrior dogwhistlers on here on the subject.
QFS.
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#124 Barker
Is this another insightful view, or are you just making it up?
I mean, where do you find this stuff, and how do you manage to extrapolate so poorly?
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64. At 2:04pm on 06 Oct 2009, Mark_WE wrote:
"taxedintotheground wrote:
brilliant message from the tories
apparently any public sector worker earning $18000 p/a or more is currently overpaid.
thats actally less than the natinal average."
If the Tories felt there were overpaid wouldn't they have recommended a pay CUT rather than a pay freeze. Many people in the private sector have had to face a pay cut/freeze because companies are trying to cut costs - so why should the public sector expect year on year pay rises?
---------
Under UK employment law you can't force someone to take a pay cut or i'm sure the tories would be about to enforce some to further pander to the expree/mail vote.
Have they looked at the circulation of these papers in key areas & decided that those are the only voters they need to win over?
because they've announced nothing to impress those of us who distrust simplistic solutions & like to think about things before forming an opinion...
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#121 U14147588
Is there a cure for…… Desperation?
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"AndyC555 wrote:
"Yeah, that is the point I don't get either, it would be like someone who had ran into a parked car and just drove off blaming the person who owned the car before them." Mark-We
What, someone driving along the road, possibly on a mobile phone, crashing into a parked car and then driving off without leaving her details??
Who could you possible mean?"
I don't think the hypothetical person would like the accusation that they were a woman as that might suggest that women were somehow bad drivers. And I am sure that this hypothetical person would think that equality was important :)
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What I find hilarious about the comments here is that not one person slating the Tories has actually come up with anything constructive of their own. Other than "cross your fingers and hope", how are we going to pay for public sector increases, the vastly expanding social security budget, ID cards, wars overseas, ineptly-implemented tax credits, etc, all in the face of declining tax revenues? If you owed £200,000 on a house and were sinking into debt/arrears trying to pay it off, is the solution to go out and buy another house?
I have not been a fan of the Tories and despise the Daily Wail, but it takes guts to stand up as an opposition party on the brink of power and say, "If we get into government, these bad things are going to have to happen." It would be far easier to stay quiet and harp on about how Brown has ruined the economy and turned Britain into a bloated mass of quangoes and regulatory bodies ready to penalise even voluntary childcare arrangements between friends. To take a risk with announcing unpleasant truths is a refreshing mark of honesty in a political landscape that has lacked such things for over a decade.
The confirmation for me was Darling's hastily arranged "policy announcement" to limit public sector pay for really high earners. If this was a genuine, predetermined Labour policy he'd have announced it either at his conference or at the budget spending review (whenever that is supposed to happen). Labour are sounding increasingly like the Tories in 1997 before their own electoral annihilation.
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derekbarker 19
"#5 Sherry!
Your still not listening right JR. The fledgling would-be wants to cut sure start and tax credit per se."
Very comical.
There is nothing in Osborne's effort today on Sure Start. Now, between you, me and the gatepost, Sure Start is a nice ad-man's name for something that doesn't work very well and costs an absolute packet, and I would be very happy to see it replaced with something leaner and more effective. But the fact remains that Sure Start was not in what Osborne said today, so what you have written here is untrue.
Likewise, there is nothing in Osborne's speech about closing down Tax Credits - just cutting them for people on over £50k. Now, again, between you, me and the gatepost, I would prefer Tax Credits to be taken away (not just cut) for most people on over about £25k, but that wasn't in the speech either. The main point is, though, that what YOU said was untrue.
So why, Derek, did you think it was a good idea to post, when everything you said was untrue - you knew it was untrue, I knew it was untrue. Indeed, you knew that I knew it was untrue! What good did you think your post would do FOR ANYONE? Isn't it the main lesson of your post that, in fact, more-or-less nothing you write is ever worth the trouble of reading?
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The Tories have consistently said that they will have to make painful cuts. Labour have lied by first critising the Tories as the cutting party and then attempting to "come clean" admitting that they too will have to make cuts. Who do you believe?
Nick, better find out where your nearest JobCentre is located!!
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I'm a civil servant earning more than £18,000pa and as such I'm not looking forward to having my pay frozen. However, I am at least bright enough to put the blame where it belongs - with the current Labour government.
If Labour hadn't overspent massively and run up a huge debt mountain then these measures wouldn't be neccessary.
I will however say this - it would be far better to keep paying your civil servants a reasonable wage and to simply reduce their numbers. Cutting costs by cutting salaries in the public sector is likely to drive the best and brightest to the private sector.
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123 fubar..
"..more of the usual tripe from the usual suspects."
Yes I agree/ You will point out any trolls from Ashcroft or Murdoch. The Murdoch ones will be banging on about BBC New Labour bias and the Ashcroft ones will read like a party political broadcast.
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No39 Andy,
Your interest in spending more than catches the eye.Are you aware that up till a short time ago The Bullingdon Kids were boasting about matching current government spending? Why do you think they have now changed their minds?
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The proportion of comments posted here which betray a predetermined response is staggering.
When are people going to realise that real change will only come when we view politics as a dynamic live agenda... not some sort of fantasy world where you pick your allegiance at a young age then stick to it come what may.
Political parties aren't football teams... you aren't duty bound to defend them or attack them come what may, yet the number of people blindly waving their myopic red or blue flags never wanes.
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There is an underlying reality here which the Tories cannot circumvent. Brown has assiduously created a large client state for Labour by increasing the size and earning levels of the public sector (and the attractiveness of their pension arrangements relative to the private sector) and the number of benefit recipients.
The Tories cannot avoid tackling these areas, with the attendant certainty of alienating large numbers of individuals and their families. It is right to say that Labour too must address those issues, and have said so, but they are much less likely to be punished in terms of votes.
As for Cameron and Osborne identifying proposals up front and risking "shoot the messenger" consequences, I'm not sure that they had much choice. The cumulative effect of 12 years of spin and stealth is a much more cynical electorate so that option, much beloved of New Labour, is a non-starter - not to mention highly visible presence of the public debt elephant in the room.
So the Tories are between a rock and a hard place, partly put there by the design of Brown and it will cost them votes.
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Saga You really should change the needle the distortion is unbearable ,
I know that ia'm not much different but I've got an excuse whats yours?
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36
Or how about this.
The intruder in question knocks on your door first, and warns you of his intention to take your goods, since they were broken by the previous person to break in uninvited(/elected). He does however promise to replace the goods with more modest examples, if you can manage to do without them for a couple of days.
This would be intruder is bashed over the head by the previous Gordon to break in uninvited, who proclaims that your goods are not in fact broken, and if you let him in he will shower you with more and more goods, while calmly dousing your house, goods and all, in petrol and preparing an incidindiary device to plant on your property as he leaves.
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great haye @ 88
I assume from your irrelevant little anecdote
arf, GHM, arf ... my point (and it's a very good one) is that if someone is going to do something really bad, then being totally upfront about it beforehand doesn't make the Bad Thing they're planning to do any the less bad - what could be more "relevant" to this particular thread? - well okay, apart from 107 where a "slightly more enlightened than the average Joe" poster explains how (Big Picture) the Tories are on the wrong road entirely
(btw, in case you haven't been sleeping nights, I've forgiven you for that nasty thing you posted the other day ... on reflection, wasn't QUITE as terrible as I was making out)
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82. At 2:19pm on 06 Oct 2009, AndyC555 wrote:
"
"45. At 1:50pm on 06 Oct 2009, FrankandTomsDad wrote:
The public sector will take an unfair share of that pain"
In my firm, no-one has received a payrise this year. No-one. Not just a pay freeze for those over £18k."
....................
You are not alone "Dad": My firm warned everybody that there would be NO pay rises this year. There were none for 60% or so last year. The same the year before. Our final salary scheme is being terminated in April (thanks Gordon), with such horrendous penalties for those with long service that we need to scrabble for early retirement in the 30-day window that our company is allowing us. Those that stay will be subjected to a new "high-performance culture," which means the bottom performers will be disciplined, then placed on notice to exceed, prior to being "managed out of the business." We understand that those with longer service will find it difficult to perform well. We have been warned that if we don't jump for "the window" we will have our pension funds crippled get managed out later.
Public sector workers: welcome to the unreal world that was built in the last ten years by New Labour, EU and American multi-nationals. Keep voting for New Liars and we'll have to go back to living in caves. Mr Cameron can't be that bad.
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Er......Why didn't George call the Public sector pay freeze a 0% increase
That would have been a great wheeze annoucing a policy and firing shots at Brown in the same breath
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Well, I'm not taken in by this shiny new schoolboy dictating the terms on how I can spend the even less pocket money I get from my salary. No way. What finally buttoned it for me was his highly sexist pension proposal. Where's that equality bunch when the inequality concerns men?
Nope. This means I have to give my vote to some minority party.
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How on earth can anyone think that public sector workers are entitled to pay increases? The vast majority of those workers in the private sector who have been lucky enough to keep their jobs have had the sense to accept that it is not feasible in the current economic climate for employees to expect a wage increase. Companies/firms struggling to survive cannot increase wages yet the public sector seem to think they should be protected from the kind of financial constraint affecting everyone else.
In anticipation of those who will argue that public sector workers are (a)low paid (b)in important jobs and (c)deserve better, have a look at the real world outside the cosy protection of the state/local authority etc. All of the above apply just as much to workers in the private sector.
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saga I have just run the numbers:
-£1,500,000,000
My kids, kids are not very happy under NuLabour!
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@126 london harris,
really.. how comfortable are 'you' now? if you are comfortable, what is providing you with that comfort? how long realistically do you think you can continue in your comfort if we carry on the way we are with labour? (regardless of what may or may not happen if tories win election)
reality please, it is the 'rich' people that have built up businesses that employ people, do we really want to penalise them bring them 'down' to 'our' level, no, what we should want is to 'raise' ourselves to 'their' level, surely, envy really is a sin.
just because we may be 'poor' does not mean can't see, and agree with common sense.
and as for sagamix, what is so important about our AAA rating, really say's how ignorant you are.
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No110 tisfedup,
'No referendum'Do you agree that after watching Boris yesterday their is more than Kenneth Clark that thinks the Tory policy on Europe is 'barmy' Can you let me know how many referendums we had during the 18 wasted years?
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115. At 2:47pm on 06 Oct 2009, Roll_On_2010 wrote:
Something has to be done. The UK PLC card has maxed out and the bank manager is breathing down our neck.
Cut NHS costs to pay off debt, IMF warns Britain.
Britain was served notice by the International Monetary Fund today that reforms to healthcare and pensions will be needed to repair the long-term damage to public finances caused by the global recession.
-----------------------------------------
Any News about cutting the NHS will be Music to the ears of all Conservatives for they would like nothing better than to reduce the NHS to a second tier Health System, by selling off chunks of the profitable parts to their Rich and Elite friends, so that Conservative M.P.'s can sit upon the Private Quango Health Group Boards as Non-Excutive Officers, and organise Charity evens for the Poor, and sick.
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Does anybody know how much money will be saved with a one year proposed freeze on public sector pay?
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@130 pop
yes the tories were duped the same way as the majority of right minded people, the politics of appeasement is for others.
i direct those that care about our troops (i am not saying that you dont)to read what General Dannatt has to say about the support it gets from this government, or the soldier that told ainsworth exactly what was needed when asked, along with how he felt.
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Here's a nice word for all you Brown lovers.
A useful word it is too ... "Visceral" ... please see below for dictionary definition.
1. Characterised by or proceeding from instinct rather than intellect: a visceral reaction.
2. Characterised by or dealing with coarse or base emotions; earthy; crude: a visceral literary style.
What do you reckon? Recognise yourself?
Have a think about it anyway. Don't worry about thanking me, or about coming back with admissions or denials ... the main thing is that you start to know yourselves a little bit better.
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"taxedintotheground wrote:
Under UK employment law you can't force someone to take a pay cut or i'm sure the tories would be about to enforce some to further pander to the expree/mail vote."
Nobody can force someone to take a pay cut, however they can present the option to the workforce to either take a pay cut or face job losses - this has happened in the private sector and so far the public sector have managed to avoid the harsh realities of the current economic situation.
"Have they looked at the circulation of these papers in key areas & decided that those are the only voters they need to win over?
because they've announced nothing to impress those of us who distrust simplistic solutions & like to think about things before forming an opinion..."
Whoever gets elected will have to find a way to lower costs or raise taxes. None of the parties have fully costed their ideas (and some of Labour's suggestions would actually cost money!)
Some people may dislike simplistic solutions, and I would agree that at present there is not a lot of detail however people who like to think about things will have realised that this is a conference speech and not a fully costed budget!
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And still they come.
#149 Jocking
Why don't you ask your bosses, or the people who are pulling your strings, the chance to let us tell you how much we don't want you - call an election, now, if you dare
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#142
Well Sherry, in your eye's there lay an abundant of lies.
We know Osborne dislike the tax credit, he has openly said so on numerous occasions.You just dont listen do you?.
The young fledgling is only rounding the edges of his predetermined mind, he wants to end tax credit and move a workable pension age employee from 130per week to around 97 per week.What good will that be to an ageing "society ".
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@ 131
thank for asking JR - it brings in around 50 billion per annum - that halves the deficit at a stroke - I very much like Mark's variation (@132) but unfortunately times are tough (no point pretending) and it doesn't bring home the bacon - perhaps we can move to something more like his proposal at a future date - and no (14147588 @ 125) I'm not worried about a mass exodus of middle income earners ...
(a) I don't think it will happen ... we agreed yesterday (didn't we?) that even the poorest members of society, those on benefits, could afford to make a little financial sacrifice for the common good, so how much more true is that of those earning over 50k?
and:
(b) if it DID happen, it would create opportunities for others
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147. braveSouter:
No39 Andy,
Your interest in spending more than catches the eye.Are you aware that up till a short time ago The Bullingdon Kids were boasting about matching current government spending? Why do you think they have now changed their minds?
*********
Because, if you recall, they were refused access to the detailed information on the nations financial situation by Brown and Darling. They asked (as they were quite within their rights to do as the Opposition party heading into an election year) and were refused.
Now that they have finally discovered the full extent to which New Labour have bankrupted this once-great country of ours, they know what actions need to be taken and are being up front about it.
Really, I expect a better recollection of recent political history from you than that!
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I'd be more touched by this honesty, if they weren't going to spend 50% of these cuts on coporate tax breaks.
The tories are being more "open" and brutal as they have to make more cuts.
There's really little more to it. Labour cuts seem less, as they don't have to make as many. What they've argued all along.
It stands to reason, and common sense that if you have promised you're going to make coporate tax cuts, and Labour haven't, then you'll have to cut more.
Labour haven't promised to cut a single tax. They's stated they'll raise upper middle taxes, to make money.
Tories have promised to cut 2 pretty big taxes. And said they will not raise any main tax as of yet.
They were always going to have to reveal their hand sooner rather than later.
Their entire poll lead is based on electoral dishonesty of sorts. As in, prentending to be centre left, and for the public sector.
My question is, is it actually possible to win an election (with the kind of majority we are talking about) with no public sector support. And next to no working class support. As well as laying into ill/sick people as well.
Think Labour will be smiling to be honest. There's a big dividing line between parties now
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Virtually the last thing this blogger expected to be on display at any Party Conference was 'political honesty'.
But here it is, like a sledgehammer, which was'nt quite what I had in mind.
I expected something a bit more subtle such as removing the fabrication of 'National Insurance contributions' from the Tax system.
So, I am not sure if the Tories have just produced a suicide note or whether they are gambling that Labour are so unpopular that they can afford to take the hit from those cohorts of voters who will be directly and adversely affected by these 'honesty' measures.
We shall see.
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None of this fiddling at the edges of tax or spend has the slightest thing to do with George Osborne, David Cameron, Lord Snooty or any of the other MPs of any party. The next general election has everything to do with Gordon Brown and his record since 1997, where we have been in the twelve years, and where we are now as a result. If, like me, you believe that he is the worst Prime Minister since Anthony Eden, then your mind is probably made up whatever anyone says or promises. If, like some on here, you think he is a great Prime Minster and deserves another five years then you will be voting accordingly. The only question to be resolved will be whose door the men in white coats will be knocking at come May or June.
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104. At 2:40pm on 06 Oct 2009, onlydez wrote:
I wont vote for these toffs, they are subliminally racist, still pandering to their Daily Fail and Sun readers who constantly pander to the belief of immigrants taking their jobs and commiting crimes.
Wow pay cuts for all public sector workers earning over 18k, yes Mr Cameron you try living in the Tory run city of London and see how far 18k takes you.
Pension age increased? It's a plan basically to kill off older people, the older we get, the more we work, the more we kill off our body earlier then it would. No need to pay for pensions once all the old codgers die i guess.
Tax credits cut for those earning over 50k, yeah it would be a great move if those earning over 50k could claim tax credits, which they can't.
For those saying this is a honest statement from the Tories, think again it's laidled with half-truths and more spin than Labour.
---------------------
Another obnoxious little class warrior. How dare these people be wealthy, their very existence is an affront to we, the benefits generation.
Tory run city of london? You haven't been here for too long have you... And 18k does you just fine thanks, I know of several people (friends of my immigrant Mrs.) who do very well on less sans handouts.
People who work longer live longer. Scientifically proven fact. But don't let that get in the way of your nonsensicle little rant.
Would you like to point out one of the half truths? Or are you just spewing blind rhetoric and ignorant class hatred?
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"If Labour hadn't overspent massively and run up a huge debt mountain then these measures wouldn't be neccessary.
I will however say this - it would be far better to keep paying your civil servants a reasonable wage and to simply reduce their numbers. Cutting costs by cutting salaries in the public sector is likely to drive the best and brightest to the private sector.
"
This Daily Mail myth, never ceases to amaze.
They spent more, as the economy dictated it. They created the wealth in the first place.
Borrowing has always been around 3% annually, since the 1960s. Blair's borrowing was significantly less than Thatcher and Majors in fact.
The only difference is it's 5% annually, rather than 3%
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"dhwilkinson wrote:
123 fubar..
"..more of the usual tripe from the usual suspects."
Yes I agree/ You will point out any trolls from Ashcroft or Murdoch. The Murdoch ones will be banging on about BBC New Labour bias and the Ashcroft ones will read like a party political broadcast."
There are posters who come across as PPBs on both sides. However, what does seem to be a more Labour thing is the "invasions" where all of a sudden dozens of people will start posting about how the latest news article will effect them either praising Labour or attacking the Tories depending on the subject.
My general feeling is that the posters who stick around are probably genuine (but maybe a bit TOO dedicated) but the new ones who appear and then vanish are probably false.
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"What was better?...The Government last week announcing more expenditure that we can't afford...
..Or,Osborne,at least being honest, and telling the public how it really is..
"
They can't afford, based on what? The tories opinion.
I think you'll find that the tories can't afford it. As they are hell bent on cutting taxes.
What Labour can afford and the tories can afford is two different camps
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#155 Atrisse
Another wasted vote for Liebour then.
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Mistake by Osborne to use his children's future as motivation for the party's fiscal policies.
I just can't visualise them in hand-me-down Tesco clothes playing with toys from the pound shop.
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"braveSouter wrote:
No39 Andy,
Your interest in spending more than catches the eye.Are you aware that up till a short time ago The Bullingdon Kids were boasting about matching current government spending? Why do you think they have now changed their minds?"
Maybe they just realised how bad things were. After all it wasn't that long ago that we were basking in Brown's economic miracle!
However, are you aware that up to a few weeks ago Gordon Brown himself was still trying to convince voters that they would continue to invest while the Tories would cut.
It seems the Tories were ahead of the game.
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Tories being “honest” is telling the country what they have to do to afford their coporate tax cuts, when there’s nothing in the bank.
Some people amaze me. Not even recognising that most of these cuts are to just fund tax initiatives.
The tories have to cut way more, as they have made way more promises to the upper middle classes.
They’ve basically guaranteed no immediate tax rises. And agreed to cut coporation tax, to help out share holders.
Labour have done neither.
One wants to spend whatever money it has on the people. The other wants to spend it on shareholders.
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Seems like another satisfactory day in the opposition factory.
Government lackeys out in force shwoing us exactly how erudite, well-informed, and utterly lacking in any kind of moral fibre they are, just like their puppet masters.
Looking forward to more of the same in the coming months.......
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"
In short we do it or the markets force us to do it
Do you really think that the people of the UK are really so stupid as not to be able to see this?"
So, do market forces dictate giving tax breaks to the super wealthy, and big business?
That's the gamble. Hitting middle classes to fund tory initiatives
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158. At 3:41pm on 06 Oct 2009, tisfedup wrote:
@126 london harris,
really.. how comfortable are 'you' now? if you are comfortable, what is providing you with that comfort? how long realistically do you think you can continue in your comfort if we carry on the way we are with labour? (regardless of what may or may not happen if tories win election)
reality please, it is the 'rich' people that have built up businesses that employ people, do we really want to penalise them bring them 'down' to 'our' level, no, what we should want is to 'raise' ourselves to 'their' level, surely, envy really is a sin.
just because we may be 'poor' does not mean can't see, and agree with common sense.
---------------------------------------------
If everyone enjoyed some "Invisable Level" that they could not live without in a universal sense created by Your beloved Conservative Party, then upon that assumption they would never lose Power at any time never mind now being out of Power for the past 12 Years having ruined Britain over the prior 18 Years before that.
Therefore, something yes was invisable that deserted your Friends in 1997.
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#152 Sagamix wrote:
arf, GHM, arf ... my point (and it's a very good one) is that if someone is going to do something really bad, then being totally upfront about it beforehand doesn't make the Bad Thing they're planning to do any the less bad
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your point is actually pretty wide of the mark. A better one (IMHO) is to say that you would rather your doctor didn't tell you about invasive surgery which could improve your health in case it upset you.
We are deep in the financial doodoo yet the current government is trying to pretend that tax rises aimed at the very wealthy will be enough to make everything all right. Only those blinkered by class envy should be foolish enough to fall for this line.
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#161 Harris
did you lose contact with your common sense gene again?
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"The confirmation for me was Darling's hastily arranged "policy announcement" to limit public sector pay for really high earners. If this was a genuine, predetermined Labour policy he'd have announced it either at his conference or at the budget spending review (whenever that is supposed to happen). Labour are sounding increasingly like the Tories in 1997 before their own electoral annihilation"
Nearly every policy Osborne releaed, is either a Labour idea, is currently being run by Labour, or is a slight change to a current Labour policy.
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Let's be honest. This pre budget is to help ease the upper middle classes through the recession, with various tax cuts. While stretching the working/middle classes as far as they can go.
When a bus driver earns 23k a year, and a bin man earns 20k, I wonder who isn't being hit in the public sector?
I'd feel far more comfortable on these cuts, if they weren't just going to be handed to company share holders.
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"We are all in this together" Like hell we are! With Osborne’s office being bank rolled by a Rothschild, with MPs high salaries, high pensions, outside interests, and let’s not forget their expenses, Osborne and co are certainly not in it with the vast majority of the British people. They are no doubt however, certainly in it for themselves. If they want to talk about cuts, they should start with themselves - MPs salaries, pensions and long holidays for a start and, let’s not forget the subsidized bar and canteen for themselves and all previous retired MPs who are still allowed to use the House of Commons facilities at public expense!!
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#57, derekbarker wrote:
"#46
There's no need for a conspicuous mind here. The young fledgling didn't throw an honest dice as much as a joker card. His speech was riddled with the flavour of 1978 conservative tripe, in as much as they believe there is no such thing as society and provisional help."
Derek,
As far as I can see, there is still barely a fag-paper's worth of difference between Labour and Tory policy. Probably not in cost terms, yet. Certainly not in "principles".
Both parties saying they need to re-assess to see whether people are genuinely claiming disabilities. So no "principle" involved.
Boy George saying he won't challenge the 50% tax rate. No contest.
Both parties saying we can't afford unfunded state pensions. Any issue?
I sort of hoped that, when Brown said he would follow "prudent" financila management of the UK he actually meant it.
I didn't expect he'd hammer private pensions. Didn't expect he'd spray taxed income over badly defined and rediculously deliver "social projects" that just haven't been made to work.
If politicians believe that somehow they "have seen the light" and have insights that nobody else could probably articulate, I'd like a bill saying they should be isolated for at least 6 months, until the feeling passes.
It's not what you SAY, it's what you DO that makes a difference.
Brown says "I always tell tyhe truth". Then "We have done the right thing at the right time".
Frankly, I wouldn't care if a UK government was run by aliens. (Most people probably believe these folks are preetty much that, anyway.)
Just do something in a fairly efficient way.
Don't stuff up the private sector, because that's where "new wealth" comes from. Don't stuff public provision. But don't assume that anything spent in the "public arena" offers value for money. Or has a genuine social impact. Sometimes it does, rather often it doesn't.
It's not necessarily the "philosophical principle" behind a policy, it's what you actually make happen that has an effect on people.
In my view, this bunch - existing government - has wasted a fairly benign UK and global economic period, because they didn't understand that a pound is a quid and you look for value.
If you couldn't take 5% out of government spend before next week, with minimal impact at the sharp end, you are less financially astute than most families.
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"potkettle wrote:
Er......Why didn't George call the Public sector pay freeze a 0% increase
That would have been a great wheeze annoucing a policy and firing shots at Brown in the same breath"
It is bad enough having to take such a policy without seeming to take delight/light hearted fun from it.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
~104 Only Dez
In response to your comments.
I am getting fed up with people referring to Cameron and the rest as toffs as if this is some kind of fault. They are who they are if you don't like them or agree with them but at least make a sensible argument which is better than another blanket labelling by newspaper readers.
"Tory Run London" - Who runs London is not going to affect prices and even if it did remember its not that long ago that it was Labour run and London was still expensive.
As for killing off old people - Please get real. All the tories are proposing is the same policy as labour only bringing it forward 10 years. Remember life expectancy has gone up significantly more and this has to be paid for.
As for tax credits - this is an overly complicated system introduced by Gordon Brown which takes with one hand gives back with another and employs Civil Servants in the middle to handle it.
As for tory spin - that's politics but I see nothing in this speech that supports your argument unlike last week.
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145
Start a petition, I'll sign.
Unfortunately, the teeth grindingly arrogant, ignorant and selfish unions are going to keep on insisting, no pay cuts, no lay offs, or we will bring the country to its belly (we are already on our knees)
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51. At 1:56pm on 06 Oct 2009, Zydeco wrote:
There are some sensible posters out there and I relish reading these gems among the rubble. To those I say thank you.
No thanks needed; you are most welcome, Zydeco.
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"How on earth can anyone think that public sector workers are entitled to pay increases? The vast majority of those workers in the private sector who have been lucky enough to keep their jobs have had the sense to accept that it is not feasible in the current economic climate for employees to expect a wage increase. Companies/firms struggling to survive cannot increase wages yet the public sector seem to think they should be protected from the kind of financial constraint affecting everyone else.
"
You are talking millions and millions of people, in one sector with no pay rises.
Your talking hundreds of different sector roles (nurses, ivil servants, MOD, bus drivers, bin men) all in the same boat
It's like telling every banker in the country, that they are having a pay freeze, no matter how well they work, no matter what the.
I assure you, it wouldn't happen.
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"sagamix wrote:
in my view we are making this way too complicated, in order to fix the problem just a SINGLE measure is required ... an increase in Income Tax
I've run the numbers and am pleased to report that the following does the trick:
under 10k ... NIL
10k to 25k ... 25 pc
25k to 50k ... 40 pc
over 50k ... 50 pc"
**********************************
Earnings £9999 - 0% = £9999
Earnings £1001 - 25% = 7499.99
Yeah right. And I thought it was only today's generation that had trouble with maths!
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"Vote for us and we'll delay your pension. Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits. Vote for us and, if you work in the public sector, we'll freeze your pay - and if you work in Whitehall, we might cut your job." Nick I suggest you review your degree of impartiality - in fact there is no degree of impartiality - although by your opening line there clearly is. The Ordinary Joe knows and understands that this country is almost bankrupt economically, diplomatically and militarily. Due to incompetence by the unelected PM Gordon Brown we will ALL pay for his ineffective leadership. That includes you. Time for change cannot come soon enough.
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152
And my point is, if the person is asking your permission to do something you wouldn't like beforehand (hence.... election), isn't it better if they tell you honestly so you can make an informed decision?
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"Now that they have finally discovered the full extent to which New Labour have bankrupted this once-great country of ours, they know what actions need to be taken and are being up front about it."
Bankrupted? National debt has risen by 3% every year since the 1940s.
Borrowing actually lessened, considerabely between 1997 and 2005. Thatcher's borrowing was about as bad as it gets. And we haven't come closer to bankruptcy than then.
It frightens me that people like you can vote. Taking partisan news coverage, like the daily wail at face value
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160. braveSouter:
No110 tisfedup,
'No referendum'Do you agree that after watching Boris yesterday their is more than Kenneth Clark that thinks the Tory policy on Europe is 'barmy' Can you let me know how many referendums we had during the 18 wasted years?
********
Same number that we've had in the last 12 wasteful ones?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"Here's a nice word for all you Brown lovers.
A useful word it is too ... "Visceral" ... please see below for dictionary definition.
1. Characterised by or proceeding from instinct rather than intellect: a visceral reaction.
2. Characterised by or dealing with coarse or base emotions; earthy; crude: a visceral literary style.
What do you reckon? Recognise yourself?"
Coming from a person who hasn't yet grasped that most right wing voters vote on "fear"
Fear - definition - people who read right wing newspapers, with their own political agenda, and believe all of their various facts and figures as being gospel truth. Not actually aware that they are just being used by such titles to simply get their guy in charge.
Right wing parties only get in because of it's media exploiting public fear.
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U14147588 @ 166
here's you spouting off to "Only Jocking" in response to their post at 149 ...
and still they come ... why don't you ask your bosses, or the people who are pulling your strings, the chance to let us tell you how much we don't want you? - call an election, now, if you dare!
... now go back and read OJs post @ 149 (pls) and report back to let us know what you make of yourself?
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"They now that John Smith's shadow budget of 1992 was applauded for being honest about the tax rises needed to pay for Labour's spending promises. They know that New Labour blamed him and it for losing them the election. They hope that they will prove that history does not have to repeat itself."
===
Hmm, except that history could not repeat itself, as the Tories are saying that the mess Labour have got us into has to be paid for, here is how we would do it. Rather different from 1992 Pre-NuLabour saying this is how much our spending splurge on social engineering projects is going to cost you if you agree to come on board for the ride.
Not the same thing at all, really.
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"#186 Nearly every policy Osborne releaed, is either a Labour idea, is currently being run by Labour, or is a slight change to a current Labour policy. Mike Naylor."
I wonder, then, why you are so critical of them.
You can't have it both ways. Either the ideas are evil tory ideas or they've stolen them from your beloved Labour.
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Some of these Labour posters are going to burst, I hope.
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185. At 4:06pm on 06 Oct 2009, U14147588 wrote:
#161 Harris
did you lose contact with your common sense gene again?
----------------------------------------
No, but from the look of things. You have.
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I think we have seen the answer today as to how t opay down the massive public debt that Labour have landed us with.
According to the Tories, raising the retirement age from 65 to 66 for men will save £13 billion a year.
As we are currently Labouring (pun intended) under a £200 billion a year deficit, the answer is simple.
Raise the retirement age to 80!
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Mike_Naylor 170
The thing you obviously don't understand about corporation tax is that revenues from it have collapsed. That is a large part of why we have such a huge budget deficit.
Companies are making less profit, so there is less to tax, AND some of the most profitable, and most potentially taxable, companies have slipped abroad in search of more competitive tax regimes.
It is a classic circumstance in which overall revenue can be INCREASED by offering tax breaks. It means that companies make more profit, so there is more to tax, and more companies come back into our tax regime, and so get taxed by us rather than someone else.
Cuts in expenditure are important; measures that raise taxable private incomes are important too. But the deficit will only be cut really substantially if corporate tax revenues can be recovered back to pre-recession levels. And tax breaks for companies are the only mechanism available to the government to achieve this.
So, corporate tax breaks are good - they raise (not lower) revenue and take the pressure off the rest of the economy.
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"Mike_Naylor wrote:
I'd be more touched by this honesty, if they weren't going to spend 50% of these cuts on coporate tax breaks."
From what I have read some of these corporate tax breaks are to encourage the growth of small companies - something that would be important to the recovery. I know it might be hard to understand but even big chain stores like Tesco and M&S were small once (and how many people are employed by these big companies?). If you kill the small companies off at birth they will never grow.
"The tories are being more "open" and brutal as they have to make more cuts. There's really little more to it. Labour cuts seem less, as they don't have to make as many. What they've argued all along.
"
Both parties have to make cuts, Labour have been hiding the truth about how deep their cuts will be in the hope that voters will be foolish enough to vote for them. Labour attacked the Tories for suggesting 10% cuts when documents show that they have the same policy!
"It stands to reason, and common sense that if you have promised you're going to make coporate tax cuts, and Labour haven't, then you'll have to cut more."
Actually it doesn't stand to reason - if the tax cuts allow a new company to form/grow/survive you may get more money. It is the old question would you rather have 10% of something or 20% of nothing? This is part of the reason why experts think the 50% tax rate might not be a good thing as it could lead to more tax avoidance.
"Labour haven't promised to cut a single tax. They's stated they'll raise upper middle taxes, to make money.
Tories have promised to cut 2 pretty big taxes. And said they will not raise any main tax as of yet."
I assume one of the taxes is Inheritance Tax which Labour have also promised to cut, and the Tories have agreed to keep the 50% tax rate.
"Their entire poll lead is based on electoral dishonesty of sorts. As in, prentending to be centre left, and for the public sector."
I don't think the Tories have ever claimed to be centre left, they are centre right but have moved towards the left."
"My question is, is it actually possible to win an election (with the kind of majority we are talking about) with no public sector support. And next to no working class support. As well as laying into ill/sick people as well."
The Tories might have no public sector support (but I doubt it - even with the pay freeze), and they have growing working class support (according to polls) and the genuine ill and sick have nothing to fear from the Tories (or Labour).
"Think Labour will be smiling to be honest. There's a big dividing line between parties now"
Yeah, the big dividing line is the Tories explaining that things will be bad (which anyone who has a clue what is going on in the world already knows) and the Labour party trying to convince them that things will be fine.
The big question is are there enough clueless people in the country to give Labour victory?
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#188 eurojurist
I finally stopped laughing enough to tell you, I think you'll find most of your list is conservative policy, announced weeks ago, before you accpeted your job. Seems you were ill informed. Plus ca change
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163
tisfedup
'yes the tories were duped the same way as the majority of right minded people...'
You're funny, tizzers! The 'majority of right minded people' were 'duped'? They weren't right minded then, were they? They were idiots. And was there, in fact, a 'majority', apart from among our politicians, of people who believed Tony Blair's ludicrous warmongering (45 minutes to oblivion indeed)? I didn't believe Tony Blair! A million or so people who marched against the war in London didn't believe Tony Blair. In fact I don't know ANYBODY who believed in his hysterical accusations apart from those saps in Parliament who blithely voted us into a stupid, murderous, wasteful and disastrous conflict. A curse on both their houses!
Then they don't even give the troops the support to complete their mission or carry out the job expected of them. Would David Cameron have done anything differently? I would say no. He has modelled himself on Blair. I wouldn't, therefore, employ him to shovel slurry in a pig farm.
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170
Mike, you surely can not fail to realise that providing corporate tax cuts achieves two things.
1) It allows business to grow. Therefore more employment in the wealth generating sector; more tax in the long run.
2) Higher returns to shareholders. Largely pension funds, and surely you don't believe more cash for pensioners (or those sensible enough to put some money aside at any rate) is a bad thing.
You really have to get over this silly idea that big business = evil. Those in the top management rolls may not necessarily be the most pleasant of of characters, but they are a necessary unpleasantness. They are required by law to run their companies in the best interests of the stakeholders (and incentivised to do so), and when they are found to be acting out of self interest, the consequences are extremely severe.
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'We're all in this together', says Osbourne. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but all the measures he outlined to start reducing the national debt do seem to be rather tsrgeted at those towards the bottom end of the scale.
Presumably he'll be announcing measures that affect those at the top of the tree nearer the election? Maybe a tax on third homes...
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@ Ozzie_Stan, post #148;
"When are people going to realise that real change will only come when we view politics as a dynamic live agenda... not some sort of fantasy world where you pick your allegiance at a young age then stick to it come what may."
Well said! The partisans on either side are the reason the country is in the state its in; if you're the sort of person who just *will not* hear anything bad said about your chosen party - or anything good about the "other" side - then it's YOUR fault that they keep lying, spinning and breaking promises. They know that you're going to vote for them anyway, so why bother treating you with any sort of respect...?
As for the topic; I think it *is* a brave move on Osbourne's part; and one I believe *will* pay off. I was considering voting for the Conservatives, this time around, a while ago; but I've been slowly put-off by their lack of willingness to give any details of their plans. Whilst this hasn't restored my confidence in them completely, it's certainly a step-in-the-right-direction.
Which means that now the only party to not publicly face-up to the fact that pretty severe cuts WILL need to be made, and start telling us specifically what they're planning on doing away with... is Labour.
Over to you, Gordon. (Or should I say, Mandy).
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#186 Mike Naylor: "Nearly every policy Osborne releaed, is either a Labour idea, is currently being run by Labour, or is a slight change to a current Labour policy."
Well, that's OK then - what can you possibly have to complain about?
I really do think you should take a little more time to construct a coherent argument, and post once, rather than dashing off all these posts one after the other. Are you on piece work? Come to that, are you 'job-sharing' with DerekParker?
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186. At 4:06pm on 06 Oct 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
.....Nearly every policy Osborne releaed, is either a Labour idea, is currently being run by Labour, or is a slight change to a current Labour policy.
**************************
Err, don't you realise how daft that comment is?
You've just posted umpteen comments telling us how wrong all Osborne's policy announcements are, and now you tell us they are all Labour policies anyway.
Jeez! Doesn't anyone in your office vet your stupidity before you post it on here.
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"Another obnoxious little class warrior. How dare these people be wealthy, their very existence is an affront to we, the benefits generation.
Tory run city of london? You haven't been here for too long have you... And 18k does you just fine thanks, I know of several people (friends of my immigrant Mrs.) who do very well on less sans handouts.
People who work longer live longer. Scientifically proven fact. But don't let that get in the way of your nonsensicle little rant.
Would you like to point out one of the half truths? Or are you just spewing blind rhetoric and ignorant class hatred?"
Great Haymaker
I'm forced to read your right wing bile, on most issues, so I thought I'd reply.
How dare you refer to a political point, by labelling someone being from a "benefit generation".
It's the exact right wing trash and snobbery that's kept the blues out of power. And the only reason they may get back in, is by completely dropping this pathetic behaviour.
It's people like you that the tory party have had to ditch, to become a viable option in power.
Your a remnant of a long forgotten past, sadly.
I'm a left wing voter. Not only do I earn far more than you no doubts (six figures), and own numerous properties. I'm also a fair bit more educated than you.
That allows me to see that the tory party asking the working-middle classes to solely bail them out of this mess, is going to upset a lot of people.
Sadly, people like you, allow them to get away with it. Little snobs, with nothing to be snobbish about.
And not even smart enough to realise that they'd probably be a fair bit better off financially without a tory government.
The tory party relys on your vote. Working-middle class people, who see themselves as something higher
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Mike_Naylor
What is behind your hatred of the succesful? Were you frightened as a child by an entrepreneur?
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188
You may have missed it, Cameron has promised to do all of the things you suggest. Brown and co mocked him for this.
I can forgive your ignorance, but don't inflict it on the rest of us.
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"U14147588 wrote:
Seems like another satisfactory day in the opposition factory.
Government lackeys out in force shwoing us exactly how erudite, well-informed, and utterly lacking in any kind of moral fibre they are, just like their puppet masters."
It must be bad - they have called in Mike :)
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"Start a petition, I'll sign.
Unfortunately, the teeth grindingly arrogant, ignorant and selfish unions are going to keep on insisting, no pay cuts, no lay offs, or we will bring the country to its belly (we are already on our knees)
"
Sadly, there's way more middle class people wanting a fair deal, than Alf Garnetts (conservatives with nothing to conserve) thinking it's their social duty to help out the ruling classes.
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listening to these mp's from all sides none have a clue and some will cause yet more damage to the already ruined economy of this country.
should we realy bother or not?.
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Mike Naylor, come in, its time for bed
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"As far as I can see, there is still barely a fag-paper's worth of difference between Labour and Tory policy. Probably not in cost terms, yet. Certainly not in "principles"."
Sadly, that's the entire point. Every single thing Osborne brought up came out of Labour think tanks.
Much of it was announced by Darling months ago.
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"Zydeco wrote:
"sagamix wrote:
in my view we are making this way too complicated, in order to fix the problem just a SINGLE measure is required ... an increase in Income Tax
I've run the numbers and am pleased to report that the following does the trick:
under 10k ... NIL
10k to 25k ... 25 pc
25k to 50k ... 40 pc
over 50k ... 50 pc"
**********************************
Earnings £9999 - 0% = £9999
Earnings £1001 - 25% = 7499.99
Yeah right. And I thought it was only today's generation that had trouble with maths!"
I am guessing that Saga meant you pay 25% on your income over £10000 rather than your total income.
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tisfedup @ 158
and as for sagamix, what is so important about our AAA rating? really says how ignorant you are
absolutely not - this is one of my Hot Topics - I'm not saying the rating isn't at ALL important (it is) I'm saying it's not as important ... not so Life or Death ... as many people make out - we shouldn't be triple A now, actually, and the Markets know that - that's why gilts don't trade as a genuine AAA, they trade more like a AA security - if Moody's or S/P were to do a downgrade (which they SHOULD but they haven't got the balls) then it would just be them catching up with reality (and not for the first time)
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"Total outstanding government debt in the UK has risen to a record £799bn, or 56.6% of UK GDP - the highest since records began in 1974."
That's from the BBC. Mike, you're going to have to tell them they are wrong. I guess it's our lack of understanding of Brownanomics. We think that if a number gets higher that means it's getting bigger. I now know from reading your posts that the bigger the number is the lower the debt. I guess by the end of today you'll be telling us that the Government is running a surplus and will be handing us money back as they have so much of it they don't know what to do with it.
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Mr Brown has been caught out lying again about the troops requested to fight the Taliban. Somehow this doesn't seem to matter to some brothers on this blog. Mr Osborne has however been accused of telling it how it is and how he expects to deal with the horrendous and parlous state this country finds itself in. Somehow this is of huge derogatory (pun intended) delight to the same brothers.
Even when the policy is stolen from the small print of government policy it still rouses the brothers to verbal riot against the Tories.
Still, when the EU takes over in the next 5 years it will no longer matter what we think nor whom we vote for.
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"186 Nearly every policy Osborne releaed, is either a Labour idea, is currently being run by Labour, or is a slight change to a current Labour policy. Mike Naylor."
I wonder, then, why you are so critical of them.
You can't have it both ways. Either the ideas are evil tory ideas or they've stolen them from your beloved Labour.
"
Because dear friend, all of the hopless ones, were rejected out of hand by the cabinet. They never got beyond the think tank stage.
3 of Osborne's policy, are based on a Labour defector, who took his ideas with him.
You know. Either we are just one big leftist country now, or the tories don't have a clue what they are doing
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"Mike_Naylor wrote:
Fear - definition - people who read right wing newspapers, with their own political agenda, and believe all of their various facts and figures as being gospel truth. Not actually aware that they are just being used by such titles to simply get their guy in charge."
Wow Mike's world doesn't just have it's own history, and numerical system but his own dictionary as well!
Can we all redefine words to support our point of view? It seems fun!
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dice @ 184
we are deep in the financial doodoo yet the current government is trying to pretend that tax rises aimed at the very wealthy will be enough to make everything all right. Only those blinkered by class envy should be foolish enough to fall for this line
agreed - and I'm not - pls see 107 - we need tax rises on all but the poorest
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So are you seriously saying that the Banking Institutions did not cause the recession? The same Bankers who are funding the Tory party election machinery. The Tory who have stayed quiet on reform in the city.
It wasn't the libdems or labour published a draft budget today; it was the tories. People have the right to question their motives and the policy.
A lot of people are going to have to pay substantially more. The policy appears to be targetting those less better off then those who can afford it. Cutting benefit, freezing public sector pay; amonts other measure does not affect those on higher incomes.
I am not a labour voter but you can see cutting child tax credits will increase unemployment amongst mothers and brings 100,000s of children back into poverty.
Why not make, for a limited time, anyone earning over £75k - £125k pay 45% income tax; £126k - £150k 50% tax; Over £150k 55% tax.
Incapacity benefit has been abolished. If you are sick you remain on the benefit. New claims are made through contributions based Employment Support Allowance. The labour government have already shamefully cut disability support for the sickest people in society, even by their own admission, recohnise that they are not able to workcut this from £104 to £89 for long term disabled persons. The Tory policy would cut it further £64. They do not say what will happen to those who can not work because as we all know INCAPACITY BENEFIT was abolished in October 2008.
It isn't actually about the Tory Party or the Labour Party. Its about how to identify those who are genuinely unable to work because of a disability.
Moreover, the parties are using and promoting gross stereotypes for political gain. There is a recession. Money is short. Somebody needs to be blamed on a mass scale for the global recession.
It's easy. The Tory Party take a swing at the vulnerable; or as they would suggest the workshy. They are an easy target. They are unlikely to vote. No suggestion of what they will do to those in work or moreover those who can afford to make a bigger contribution; that being a reasonable contribution.
There are between 10% to 15% of the population who meet the defintion of disability under the Disability Discrimination Act (1995) and its subsequent amendments. That means the law recognises that about 10 million people in the UK have a signficant impairment which affects there day to day life. A substantial number of those on disability related benefits or incapacity benefit are unable to work due to genuine incapacity. None of the parties have stated how they will identify and protect those people who genuinely are unable to work. It means that 20% of those who are signficantly disabled (at its maximum) are unable to work. Out the incapacity benefits awarded 48% or disabled within the meaning of the Disability Living Allowance regulations. The test for receiving DLA is substantially higher than any other benefit awarded; indeed the test here is substantially higher here than anywhere else in Europe. Many of the people who receive DLA also work to a certain degree. Some people on Incapacity Benefit also work within the permitted rules regime. The policy has to considered all of the factors not just the a point which ruptures the headline during an economic crisis.
That leaves a signficant part of the population who by the legal definition are incapcitated or say 1.1 to 1.4 million people which is broadly in line with the International Classification of impairments in the western world. Most of those with serious impairments which prevent any kind of work live in poverty and the real cost and experience of ill-health is neither addressed by the Tory Party or the Labour Party.
Using vulgar stereotyping encourages the rest of society to look at disabled persons in a less than human context and flies in the face of understanding the genuine social restrictions afflicted on disabled persons.
There was no Tory Policy on those who evade paying tax at all or those who manipulate the status of limited companies or self-employment to reduce the contribution of tax to the benefit of the rest of society; such people are however quite hapy to benefit from those pay on PAYE and have no choice on how their money is prioritised. The PAYE employee in facts subsidies private enterprises and the public authorities have quite a job enforcing the taxation of the self-employed.
May be the parties should list all the groups that make the recession more difficult to turn round and generate broadly equivalent stereotypes with the facts in order that the electorate can make an informed choice as to whose needs are greater and reduce what will inevitably be discrimination on a mass scale which will affect disabled persons; part time mothers; lone parents; and minority groups disproportionately.
Where will these 1.3m new jobs come from? Moreover, these new jobs are apparently going to be filled by [the legal definition] by disabled persons who will require reasonable adjustments of probably a disproportionate cost to the saving. There is no intended defense about getting people back to work who can work. I heard of a case recently of a person who came off Incapacity Benefit with a salary of around £12k per year but the reasonable adjustments package cost £18k per year. I am told its not uncommon.
The public sector can at present inadequately provide adjustment services for disabled persons who work for government; and the idea the private enterprise would be in any position to make adjustments for the huge number of incapacity benefit claimaints who will be forced to work is laughable if it was not so serious to cause a breakdown in public policy and damage lives.
The Tory Party should publish its regulatory impact assessment on the broader issues that the policy presents otherwise it will have no credibility and will never work in practice. Or, is the culture of returning to discrimination disabled persons on a large a further policy announcement yet to come.
You simply can't target the vulnerable at the expense of those who ought to pay more and should pay more. The 25% decrease in incapacity benefit levels is disproportionate to the rest of society and the proposed tightening of fiscal policy applied to the masses.
I think since the Tories have started on this mission it is reasonable to assume that the Tories will focus their attention on other incapacity based benefits such NI contributions based employment support allowance, Disability Living Allowance, Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit etc. Some of the other benefits are an easier target, easier to reform immediately and have all the same cultural problems of the abolished Incapacity Benefit.
It is noticeable that the Tory Party are out on scale on the blogs to defend the Tory Policy. Just because people are asking questions about its viability and impact assessment does not mean they support the Government or are a labour supporter. I have notice that the defensiveness is getting to the level of abusiveness. It should be about debating the policy in the public interest not for the public just to accept the policy without critique. The Tory Party do not have the inherited right to assume power. They must answer the difficult questions posed by their announcements.
The Tory party presented the policy with little substance; it is for them to answer criticism and critique to flesh out the real policy detail behind the ideas. There are so many inconsistencies one could write a book about it. When interviewed today by Andrew Neil, Mr Cameron ducked the question of fiscal reform and welfare reform as a package saying they would take the present government's programmes and roll them into one package fits all. He gave nothing away. Added no understanding or value to the debate. There will be millions of disabled person who can not work, concerned up and down the country.
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"AndyC555 wrote:
"#186 Nearly every policy Osborne releaed, is either a Labour idea, is currently being run by Labour, or is a slight change to a current Labour policy. Mike Naylor."
I wonder, then, why you are so critical of them.
You can't have it both ways. Either the ideas are evil tory ideas or they've stolen them from your beloved Labour."
I don't think logic ever applied to Mike :)
Sometimes his posts seem to contradict each other almost as if they are being written by different people!
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#174 Mike Naylor
"This Daily Mail myth, never ceases to amaze.
They spent more, as the economy dictated it. They created the wealth in the first place."
What about the nulabour myth that they created the wealth. Governments never create wealth they may create the right conditions and Blair/Brown deserve some credit for this. Governments however spend wealth and they spent all they had during the good times and now have nothing for the bad.
Much as I despise Gordon Brown he is not solely responsible for the recession but neither are the bankers. Blame lies with many people and organisations for example everyone who took out mortgages, credit card loans etc that became unserviceable are equally responsible in their own way.
What is true is that there is a public debt that is huge and Brown has spent much of the last year denying it. Still he doesn't seem to have got to grips with it.
I suspect that there will be tax rises, spending cuts and public sector pay freezes whoever is in power and the tories are testing the water as to what they might be able to get away with.
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195
You have no conception of how things are in the private sector. Your ignorance is appalling, and your attempt to inflict it on us is offencive and arrogant.
It is not just bankers you are talking about. The entire private sector has been reduced. Noone in my company has had a pay rise (not going to tell you what we do, but not in any way financial sector). We have lost around 35% of our workforce, and all those remaining were "asked" to take 5 days of unpaid "leave" (ie., you ain't gonna get paid, come in if you want and if you don't, we'll remember).
People like you are truly insufferable. You will continue to lecture, continue to have utter belief in what you say, and continue to talk complete and utter nonsense. I can only hope that people have the sense to not pay attention to you.
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202
Coming from someone who doesn't realise that most left wing voters vote on lazy mindedness and greed.
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@160 brave
1957
The Treaty of Rome was signed by 6 European states
1967
The European Community was established
1973
Britain joined the European Community. Tory Prime Minister Edward Heath took Britain in. (hindsight = b*st*rd)
1975
Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson had a referendum on Britain’s membership – the last national referendum this country has had. 66% voted yes – to stay in the European Community
1987
The Single European Act was signed. This was to create an internal market; "an area without frontiers in which the free movement of goods and persons, services and capital is ensured."
1991
The Maastrict Treaty was signed. The heart of this was to create a single European currency so that Europe as an entity had a currency to challenge the international supremacy of the dollar.
Britain, lead by Tory Prime Minister John Major, pushed for and got an "opt out" clause for Britain. This meant that we were part of the European Community and wanted to be a part of it, but not to participate in a single currency, therefore, maintaining the pound should we decide to do so. (still relevant today?)
1993
The European Union was formed
2002
The Euro was introduced on January 1st.
British public does not support the Euro and still doesn't
12 of the 15 countries join the single currency the EURO.
2004 EU constitution (rears it's ugly head)
'Tony Blair promises a referendum'
2005 – The EU is enlarged to 25.
2007 EU decides to mislead British and european public and by calling constitution a treaty.
After seeing the rejection from other nations for the constitution, Britain and other nations were refused the right of a referendum.27
2009
so now we are where we are.
so in answer to your question it appears to be '1'
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“Mike, you surely can not fail to realise that providing corporate tax cuts achieves two things.
1) It allows business to grow. Therefore more employment in the wealth generating sector; more tax in the long run.
2) Higher returns to shareholders. Largely pension funds, and surely you don't believe more cash for pensioners (or those sensible enough to put some money aside at any rate) is a bad thing.
You really have to get over this silly idea that big business = evil. Those in the top management rolls may not necessarily be the most pleasant of of characters, but they are a necessary unpleasantness. They are required by law to run their companies in the best interests of the stakeholders (and incentivised to do so), and when they are found to be acting out of self interest, the consequences are extremely severe”
Great Hayemaker.
With all due respect, that is just the Daily Wails take on things, and doesn’t respect actual fact.
1) It allows business to grow, but history has shown that the top shareholders just pocket the difference in recessions. The companies don’t re-invest any of it. It’s all stockpiled.
The money never gets to the workplace at all. The only people who historically gain anything from coporate tax breaks is major share holders.
2) Your totally right. I just don’t think, in a time of a recession, when millions of people can’t even get a pay rise, that the government should be worrying about share dividends.
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The comparison with John Smith in 1992 is completely wrong. He just wanted to redistribute from the rich to the poor. He didn't face the crisis that the Conservatives will face after the next election. Honesty in this situation is not a gamble at all. People will be glad someone has got the bottle t sort themess out.
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"Borrowing actually lessened, considerabely between 1997 and 2005."
Mike_Naylor
Do please turn your opinion on to what happened after 2005 and what's going to be happening over the next 5 years. I wish I was still living in 2005 when Brown's shameful financial Ponzi scheme had yet to begin to crumble. But crumble it was going to, sooner or later, as all Ponzi scheme's do.
Talking about the early years being so good is like buying a car on credit you can never afford to pay and then driving up and down the road showing off to the neighbours. Looks good for a while but there's only ever going to be one result. Such a shame he's taken the rest of us down with him.
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No169 Willy
No179 Mark
Do you agree with the view that only fools think governments in liberal democracies 'run'free market economies? Some people think that their role is to advance and protect the interests of the rich and powerful.They are of course required to bail out, with taxpayers money, the irresponsible, reckless and greedy louts in the City and other financial centres responsible for the periodic crises that cause such hardship to decent families. How confident are you that a few new faces round the cabinet table will make any real and meaningful difference to the well being of our fellow citizens?
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Haymaker
Forgot to say, the tories have been stuck to this "coporate tax" albatross for at least 5 years.
It's a promise they made, that can't be reversed. It was made in a boom time, and has followed them reluctantly into recession.
It's not a policy to creat jobs. That my friend is what is called an excuse.
it's Cameron and his cronies paying back the major shareholders that have funded their election campaigns.
Don't get me wrong, Labour pander to the unions in the same way. But don't insult people's intelligence, that this tax cut is anything more than just doing your "backers" a favour.
The tories wouldn't get election money, without helping out the corporations. And the same with Labour and the unions.
The issue is that it's a recession. And helping the Unions probably holds the higher ground at the minute.
As millions of people rely on this sector for work. It's not feathering the nest of a few thousand share holders
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199. Mike_Naylor:
"Now that they have finally discovered the full extent to which New Labour have bankrupted this once-great country of ours, they know what actions need to be taken and are being up front about it."
Bankrupted? National debt has risen by 3% every year since the 1940s.
Borrowing actually lessened, considerabely between 1997 and 2005. Thatcher's borrowing was about as bad as it gets. And we haven't come closer to bankruptcy than then.
It frightens me that people like you can vote. Taking partisan news coverage, like the daily wail at face value
*******
Mike, what actually frightens me is that you can write this stuff and actually believe it.
We (I say we, I mean those incompetents currently in power) have borrowed more in the past 18 months than we have borrowed as a nation in the past 100 years. How you can possibly sit at your computer and spout such nonsense with the conviction you obviously have is beyond me.
Take a look at the figures, Mike. I assume that as a New Labour lackey, you have better access to them than the Conservatives had until recently. The numbers (unlike New Labour) don't lie. We are in a serious financial crisis, made immeasurably worse by the ham-fisted and blinkered methods of Prime Chancellor Brown. Despite the hopes of the experts, we are STILL not leaving recession or seeing any kind of growth whatsoever, and we're about the last of the major developed countries to still wallow in the morass in which we have been dumped.
No matter how you spin things, the numbers show that New Labour spent all the money we have - then spent all the money we don't have - then spent all the tax money my kids will contribute, and we still have falling standards in public services, where targets are not met, cleanliness in Hospitals is at an all time low, kids leave school with a University place but no education, the police and armed forces are stretched to the limits and under-resourced, we have a target-driven, blame culture where before we had a work ethic and pride in our nation - and you want MORE of this?
Please let me know when you'll be having elections where you live in CuckooLand - it's the closest you'll get to a New Labour victory next spring.
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Eurojurist @ 188
If a fully minted politician such as Cameron, Osborne or any of the champagne socialist set say "We're all in it together", they do not mean that they or their family or their friends are personally "in it".
No Sir.
What they mean is that we too are living in a society where a significant number of people are struggling to get by and it offends our sensibilities to know that so ... we shall try to do something about it.
As you point out, in the actuality, there is no correlation whatsoever with their lifestyles and ours, the lumpen proles of this world.
So it is a bit silly of Osborne to even remotely imply that there is but maybe it makes him feel better.
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Mike Naylor,
You continually quote incorrect figures on the fiscal deficit.
Labour ran a fiscal deficit during the "boom" years after 2001.
Current projected fiscal deficit is 9.7% of GDP with a projected average deficit of 6.7% over the following 4 years. No doubt the actual figure will turn out worse.
The structural deficit (i.e. not recession or banking related) is 90 billion (I quoted only 80 billion earlier, but now know that on best estimates I was 10 billion too optimistic).
No doubt you will pop up again in a few weeks time and repeat the same inaccurate figures again.
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"Not only do I earn far more than you no doubts (six figures), and own numerous properties. I'm also a fair bit more educated than you." Mike_Naylor
You missed out the bit about you being irrisistable to women and an all round athelete with Olympic gold medals, FA Cup winners medals to go with your Nobel peace prize.
What a silly man if you feel the need to boast on a BB where anyone can claim anything they like.
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@219:
nice.....
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#220
Thegreatpaytaker/Cameron has promised, indeed!
What, to help those over the 50% tax margin to pay themselves less on an annual bases and increase their bonus payments so that they will escape the tax band?.
Wake up! paytaker! the tories = same old.
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147. At 3:28pm on 06 Oct 2009, braveSouter wrote:
No39 Andy,
Your interest in spending more than catches the eye.Are you aware that up till a short time ago The Bullingdon Kids were boasting about matching current government spending? Why do you think they have now changed their minds?
---------
Probably because they've realised that the current government spending plan only works in the land where the fairies live.
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@222 Mike:
Yes - and all of them agree that the only way they will get one is in voting this shower out next spring!
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#218 Mike Naylor: "I'm a left wing voter. Not only do I earn far more than you no doubts (six figures), and own numerous properties. I'm also a fair bit more educated than you."
I knew it! A champagne socialist and Old Etonian!
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Arf naylor, touched a nerve did I?
From working class stock mate. No high opinion of myself, just a low opinion of people like you.
And as a finance director I have done the maths several times. At no point would I have been worse off under a Tory government than a labour one. In fact, I'm prepared to put up with some pain to get us out of this mess your lot have put us in, but I will not stick around for another term if it comes to that. "Good riddance" I can hear your mind grinding already, but since you can not generate your own benefits, you will quickly miss people like me.
Snob? Moi?
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Give me decent, public school educated politicians any day rather than the current 'MacMafia' or lefty BBC luvvies like you Nick. How long have you been representing New Labour? I though my license fee paid you to be accurate and neutral in your reporting. What with you and 'Mr.Ego', the waffling Peston on business, I'm about to change permanently to SkyNews to get some straight reporting. Bobjay
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mark @ 226
I am guessing that Saga meant you pay 25% on your income over £10000 rather than your total income
of course - exactly as typed - no need to "guess"
and let's not allow Mr Z to derail our excellent proposal, eh? ... it's a hard enough sell as it is (as the RIGHT policy often is)
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@161 london harris
what is it with you, you think that no conservative supporters use the NHS, you really are on a another planet. how on earth can you say that we enjoy ruining the NHS, please stick to facts.
I support the conservatives, i must admit not always, i was completly dissilusioned with them in 97 i think i voted the raving loony party, and the greens, but the one thing i never forgot is what labour did to our country in the 70's.
with all the tory failing's which they do have, they through out history of tory v labour been the party that fixes and does what is best for the 'country', and as a society/community we do what we can for each other = people.
labour breaks/bankrupts the 'country' by doing what it thinks is best for the 'people', which then in turn turns out to be very bad not only for the 'country' but for the 'people' aswell.
so my belief is let the tories sort out the country, and let labour/liberals keep them in check and held to account for the people.
hummm
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175 mark_we
"My general feeling is that the posters who stick around are probably genuine (but maybe a bit TOO dedicated) but the new ones who appear and then vanish are probably false.
a sweeping generalisation I think. I know from experience that you can take what anyone says here at face value. Some people come on here when there's a major event they want to comment on like a conference speech and others more regularly. For some reason both of those groups(Non Tory/ABL) are branded as employees of the Labour party or Wheelans warriors. The first time comment thing is a bit odd as well. Were we all trolls when we made our first time comments?
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"186 Nearly every policy Osborne releaed, is either a Labour idea, is currently being run by Labour, or is a slight change to a current Labour policy. Mike Naylor."
I wonder, then, why you are so critical of them.
You can't have it both ways. Either the ideas are evil tory ideas or they've stolen them from your beloved Labour."
"Because dear friend, all of the hopless ones, were rejected out of hand by the cabinet. They never got beyond the think tank stage. Mike_Naylor"
Oh dear, that's hopeless. Ideas can't be "currently being run by Labour and "a sleight change to a current Labour idea" while at the same time they were "rejected out of hand by the cabinet"
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#218 mike naylor wrote:
"I'm a left wing voter. Not only do I earn far more than you no doubts (six figures), and own numerous properties. I'm also a fair bit more educated than you."
Says it all really. The true humility of the Labour Party.
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"MarkofSOSH wrote:
'We're all in this together', says Osbourne. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but all the measures he outlined to start reducing the national debt do seem to be rather tsrgeted at those towards the bottom end of the scale.
Presumably he'll be announcing measures that affect those at the top of the tree nearer the election? Maybe a tax on third homes..."
Lets take the big annoucements one at a time:
Public Sector pay freeze (apart from the lowest paid and soldiers) - does it effect those at the bottom? Um no
Bringing forward the increase in pension age - is this just targeted at the lowest paid? Um no again
Cutting tax credits for those earning more than 50k - does this effect those at the bottom? Um... don't think so
The only thing that does effect the lowest paid is moving people who shouldn't be on IB back onto JSA and the only people who are effected are people who shouldn't be claiming the increased money anyway!
So out of the big announcements the only low paid people who will be effected are benefit cheats - might heart bleeds for them.
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242
bravesouter (may I call you BS?)
Given that the alternative is the same incompetent, mistrustful, power-hungry faces, then I say bring on the new faces......
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#233 loquitur
An excellent post, if I may be permitted to say so? I do not necessarily agree with all of it, but thank you for the vast improvement upon the rantings of some others on this blog!
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No186 Mike
You are right to draw attention to that large group of politically thick working class Tories that demonstrate their ignorance daily, their attitudes have baffled social scientists for as long as as anyone can remember.Their stupidity is not confined to the UK. Workers in their millions turned up to vote for George Bush.
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Mike_Naylor wrote:
"I'm a left wing voter. Not only do I earn far more than you no doubts (six figures), and own numerous properties. I'm also a fair bit more educated than you."
You might earn six figures but I am the King of America and I own Belgium.
See we can all make claims on the Internet.
As to earn six figures I didn't think the Labour party could afford to pay that much - I thought you guys were almost broke?
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107. At 2:41pm on 06 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
in my view we are making this way too complicated, in order to fix the problem just a SINGLE measure is required ... an increase in Income Tax
I've run the numbers and am pleased to report that the following does the trick:
under 10k ... NIL
10k to 25k ... 25 pc
25k to 50k ... 40 pc
over 50k ... 50 pc"
Except there's two problems.
1) Tax income will decline.
2) Tax income will decline.
Technically that is only one problem, but I thought it was so important I had to mention it twice.
Welcome to the laffer curve.
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239
Mike,
I have not picked up a Daily Mail since I ran out of toilet paper as a student too many years ago to remember.
None here are Daily Mail readers. But you obviously confine yourself to such intellectual papers as the Beano and the Dandy.
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218. At 4:34pm on 06 Oct 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
I'm a left wing voter. Not only do I earn far more than you no doubts (six figures), and own numerous properties. I'm also a fair bit more educated than you.
-----
I recognise you as Tony Blair and claim my £5
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"1) It allows business to grow, but history has shown that the top shareholders just pocket the difference in recessions. The companies don’t re-invest any of it. It’s all stockpiled.
The money never gets to the workplace at all. The only people who historically gain anything from coporate tax breaks is major share holders."
Your grasp of finance is amazing. During a recession major shareholders benefit because companies are stockpiling profits and not re-investing them.
I guess it would be a waste of time to point out that during a recession there aren't any profits to stock pile and if profits are being stockpiled they can't be being passed to shareholders. As for not re-investing. I guess you've never run a business, at least not one that lasted long.
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239
Just who do you think a company's shareholders are?
They are ordinary people, through investment funds, pension funds etc. Not the company's management. Not some mythical beast that gobbles up everyone's hard earned money.
You just don't have the faintest understanding of companies, the economy, and frankly, politics.
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#180, Mike_Naylor wrote:
"Tories being “honest” is telling the country what they have to do to afford their coporate tax cuts, when there’s nothing in the bank.
Some people amaze me. Not even recognising that most of these cuts are to just fund tax initiatives.
The tories have to cut way more, as they have made way more promises to the upper middle classes.
They’ve basically guaranteed no immediate tax rises. And agreed to cut coporation tax, to help out share holders."
Mike,
You may not have bothered to check - but the majority of private pension funds are invested in shares.
So the nasty people who take away benefits for private sector workers are from which party, exactly?
Brown attacked private schemes from day one. So private schemes are going down the plug-hole. Because they were supposed to be "funded".
Any idea where I can find a Treasury document that points at the pot of gold that will fund public sector pensions?
Can't? Because it never existed.
I absolutely don't want folk who take a "public" career route to be disadvantaged. But I'm doubtful whether even the most Dracula-like politician knows where to find the next artery to slurp up the money to pay for current levels of public expenditure.
Couldn't understand it for a few years, in truth.
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218. Mike_Naylor
"I'm a left wing voter. Not only do I earn far more than you no doubts (six figures), and own numerous properties. I'm also a fair bit more educated than you.
That allows me to see that the tory party asking the working-middle classes to solely bail them out of this mess, is going to upset a lot of people.
Sadly, people like you, allow them to get away with it. Little snobs, with nothing to be snobbish about.
And not even smart enough to realise that they'd probably be a fair bit better off financially without a tory government.
The tory party relys on your vote. Working-middle class people, who see themselves as something higher"
=
Mike
You usually don't indulge in 'wind-ups', heavy irony or satire, which is why I ask can you confirm to me (and others) that what you have written in your post above, particularly the part I've extracted, was written in all honesty, without any of the afore-mentioned intended?
Thanks.
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I mean, are you even aware that dividends are taxed twice? They are paid out of after tax profit by the company, and at an effective rate of 25% on income tax by the recipient.
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The trouble on these pages is that there are too many people who are happy to allow the borrow and spend philosophy currently practiced. That is based on figures that are mired in confusion and few if any know the exact figure that we need to pay in order to attempt to be solvent.
Are you people happy to leave the problem to 'your children or their children'? Come next June, it is possible that the truth may start to emerge. Following a change of Administration I will no doubt here cries of failure to address the problem levelled at the, now, Opposition.
I have read many people accusing Camerson and Osbourne, perm any one from three:- Do not understand the problem (too iexperienced). Grabbing all the money for their rich friends. They are very,very rich old etonians and can only steal policies that are currently working for this Government.
Why let truth interfere with a possible way of starting to reign in a system that will soon gallop away from control?
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Mike Naylor is humpty dumpty.
"when I say a word it means whatever I want it to mean" said humpty dumpty.
With a bit of thought so is Mr Brown.
Will the real Mr Dumpty please fall of the wall.....
The Kings horses etc will try and fail...
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#195 Mike Naylor
I'm fully aware that the public sector consists of millions of people doing lots of different jobs. The point I am making is that this is no different from the private sector which also consists of millions of people doing different jobs, many of which are as poorly paid as those in the public sector and do not have the benefit of job security or generous pensions. You say a public sector freeze wont happen. I'd be more interested in hearing you justify why it shouldn't. If, as is clearly the case, most workers in the private sector are not receiving wage increases why should those in the public sector get them?
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"braveSouter wrote:
No169 Willy
No179 Mark
Do you agree with the view that only fools think governments in liberal democracies 'run'free market economies?"
Yes, I agree. Governments can try and run free market economies but when they try they usually fail, however I tend to feel that the economy is like a bird and the government is holding onto it. If you hold it too tight you crush it and if you don't hold tight enough than it flies free from you.
Labour didn't hold tight enough - and we have no idea what the Tories would have done as they weren't in power. They could have been better or worse or no difference.
"Some people think that their role is to advance and protect the interests of the rich and powerful.They are of course required to bail out, with taxpayers money, the irresponsible, reckless and greedy louts in the City and other financial centres responsible for the periodic crises that cause such hardship to decent families."
I don't think that the government thinks that their role is to protect the rich and powerful but instead to do what they could to prevent a complete banking collapse - again we have no real idea how the Tories would have handled it.
"How confident are you that a few new faces round the cabinet table will make any real and meaningful difference to the well being of our fellow citizens?"
I don't think that new faces would make much difference at all, however I don't think that we should use that as a reason to give those who failed the chance to fail again.
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ghm @ 237
most left wing voters vote on lazy mindedness and greed
crazy comment / crazy guy!
very odd
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@212 pop
touche..
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This is not our Nick Robinson surely, a member of the 'Oxford Bullingdon Club' with David and Boris.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/david-cameron/6263155/The-truth-about.html
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thinking @ 265
tax income will decline
no - I take your point that pushing rates above a certain "Tipping Point" can cause the total take to fall but (in this case) we're on the right side of the TP, and so we're okay
what makes you think otherwise?
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114. At 2:46pm on 06 Oct 2009, Mark_WE wrote:
"calmandhope wrote:
@48
How exactly are the tories the cause of the recession when they havent been in power for the last 12 years?"
Yeah, that is the point I don't get either, it would be like someone who had ran into a parked car and just drove off blaming the person who owned the car before them.
===
Is that really what Harriet did?
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#174 Mike
I believe this is the second time I have been forced to correct your figures.
Borrowing this year is 12.5% of GDP - or £175bn - more than double than figure you have made up.
And the debt mountain that I originally mentioned is forecast to be £1.4 trillion by 2013-14.
These figures come from Labour's last budget forecast, please feel free to check them.
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The comments that some of the Labour supporters are coming out with are riven with the usual politics of envy.
I would like to hear their path to balancing the books?
Someone has obviously turned over a stone and the Liebour Rapid Rebutal unit have crawled out.
Dolly Drapper will me making a come back soon with Mcpoison.
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"dhwilkinson wrote:
175 mark_we
"My general feeling is that the posters who stick around are probably genuine (but maybe a bit TOO dedicated) but the new ones who appear and then vanish are probably false.
a sweeping generalisation I think. I know from experience that you can take what anyone says here at face value. Some people come on here when there's a major event they want to comment on like a conference speech and others more regularly. For some reason both of those groups(Non Tory/ABL) are branded as employees of the Labour party or Wheelans warriors. The first time comment thing is a bit odd as well. Were we all trolls when we made our first time comments?"
You yourself have not been above accusing people of working for the Tories, so I wouldn't stay too long on the high ground. The only semi-regular poster who I fully expect to be a Labour plant or a troll is Mike, the others I just consider to be left wing voters who often (but not always raise) valid points.
And as to your comment about us all being trolls when we make our first comments the answer is clearly not - we often have new posters who come here and join in the debate. However, what stands out is when we have a large number of first time posters who all seem to directly benefit as a result of the latest reports, they all post pretty much the same thing at the same time and when challenged are unable to provide details.
I am sure it is item 1 on the astroturfers handbook - go out on the forums and tell everyone how great the policy is.
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" forwarnedthinking wrote:
Technically that is only one problem, but I thought it was so important I had to mention it twice."
Love Red Dwarf :)
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No197 Vacillate,
The UK Prime Minister was elected in the same way as every other member of the House of Commons. I would have thought you would know that.
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MWE @ 276 re the Economy ...
if you hold it too tight you crush it and if you don't hold tight enough then it flies free from you
I like that, Mark, I have to say - and if it's original, I like it even more
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Labour Governments always run out of other peoples money. They did in the 70's & it took Maggie years to sort it out and she got the blame for all the unemployment when the damage was really done by Labour overspending. This lot are just the same and even without the recession the debt would be huge. Labour wants total control of your life and despite their Blair "NuLabour" badge they are still stanch Socialists and would like to get all your money & pay eveyone "pocket money".
Labour Governments are always a disaster. Lets give the Tories a chance, they can't do any worse!
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#270
Hum drum! " Any idea where I can find a Treasury document that points at the pot of gold that will fund public sector pensions?"
Any idea why the world is littered with governments that have universal taxation systems?.
You wont gain any redemption by sucking the life out of Osborne's failed
delivery.Come on Fairly sporadic! what about some new ideas how we can advance our civil notion of progression.
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TheBlameGame
I dont think it is a wind-up. I think it is someone with a massive chip on his shoulder that needs to find a home. Still, he has achieved something close to a world record in responses, which is probably what he intended. For my part I wish people would stop talking about class - it really is quite sad and divisive, and only exists in the minds of those who think it is important. Like money and university degrees and size of whatever (mansions?). I also have no time for those who categorise men for the school they attended, a school that was selected for them before they were born and about which they had absolutely no say. If a man or women is any good then Eton or Stanford Road Primary in Brighton matters not a jot to how the person turns out. Good or bad.
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277
Come along saga, look at the context. Response to Nayolor's idiocy, I shouldn't let it wind me up.
For the record, not all left wing voters are lazy minded.
Not even all Labour ones.
Some are just misled.
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My goodness we are on the first rung of the ladder and everybody is fighting like, it would make any difference who came to power next time. Whoever comes to Government next will have to cut deeply to prevent fiscal meltdown.
Good speech by G. Osborne and a little bit of a start on the public fiances but this will nowhere near touch our Government debt levels.
Two questions from me.
one, where is the growth in the economy George, where is it going to come from, there is little incentive in this for business especially if you are to leave the tax levels high. The new National Insurance increases on business will be difficult enough for employers. How are you going to stop business leaving the Country as they are now. As to manufacturing the recent report shows it is declining rapidly.
Two. How are you going to fill the fiscal hole left by the loss of the income from the people working in the city on which Brown based his extra spending and expansion of the public sector. The 50p tax certainly will not do this as it will cost the Country more than it will raise in taxes. This if you do not cut the public sector deeply will be a year on year deficit adding to our enormus debt.
I do not agree with ring-fencing the NHS this needs to be reformed and made fit for purpose. Not as it is at the moment bloated and consuming far too much of the tax money earned. New rules should be applied as to who can use it to stop health tourists and what it can realistically achieve with the money spent.
Public sector pensions which are off book and are at massive debt levels must be addressed.
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Not a word about Public servant pensions (unaffordable). Not a word about PFI's (unquantifiable).
The real cuts in public expenditure will be massive whoever.
Gordon and his chums of course will say these are not cuts but efficiency savings.
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No256 tisfedup
Thank you for your brief but accurate history of the EU. It appears from the information you provide that the Tories took us into the EU without a referendum, and during their 18 wasted years, despite all the treaties that were ratified, they never offered the British people a referendum. Is it any wonder that they are the laughing stock of Europe?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#265 forwardthinking and sagamix
Of course we don't exactly know how the Laffer curve would operate on earned income, and at lower levels of income.
It might be possible to raise income tax rates in the way Sagamix suggested, but probably it would have to be on a short-term basis with a view to repairing the worst of the deficit.
Actually tax rises have not been much of the political debate really. As we move the debate forward we may find that Labour are intending to raise taxes rather than, or as well as, cut expenditure. This may be clearer from the PBR, but I expect that will just predict 10% growth rates and the whole problem will disappear.
For various reasons I am not in favour of tax rises, but I think Labour could present the case, if it was honest enough, for 90 billion pounds of tax rises. Yes I can see the leader's debate now.
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#246 johnharris66
Hello John
Nice to here him put flesh on the bones, however, has he said what he intends to do with the numerous loopholes that enable those with expensive accountants, so I assume the rich and the corporates, to avoid tax altogether?
These avoidance tactics cost the exchequer many billions of pouunds in lost revenue every year but I haven't heard him try and address this 'progressive' issue of making the rich actually pay tax.
Anyway, well, at least we're starting to be offered a choice.... to me, I shall vote for the one I trust least as their policies seem to be broadly similar.
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#287
O' Behave sagamix! you saucy minx.
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Nick,
Really....the word massive is a tad over the top methinks. Since when has honesty become a gamble in politics...frankly it says it all if that is your view. About time when had some straight talking in place of the pathetically timed announcement from Darling last night trying to upstage the Tories - pathetic.
Way to go George....this is what is needed.
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loquitir @ 233
As "the thing speaks for itself" (res ipsa loquitur) you say a signficant part of the UK population who by the legal definition are incapacitated (1.1 to 1.4 million people), is broadly in line with the International Classification of impairments in the western world.
Furthermore you say that most of those with serious impairments which prevent any kind of work live in poverty and the real cost and experience of ill-health is neither addressed by the Tory Party or the Labour Party.
Also you say that using vulgar stereotyping encourages the rest of society to look at disabled persons in a less than human context and flies in the face of understanding the genuine social restrictions afflicted on disabled persons.
Those are powerful statements which fair-minded people should reflect upon and it is truly disgraceful when politicians turn on those least able to defend themselves.
Seems that the press are'nt the only 'jackals' around.
Anyway, does anybody know whatever happened to Remploy, which I believe was a business setup by Government to help disabled people work?
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Well it look and feels as if Murdoch's little puppies on this blog aren't getting their selfish way. Great stuff!
Why this lot want to end the BBC and replace it with some type of free for all pirate, TV companies is beyond me.
Smile tories your on candid Camera!.
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We are all in this together = We are all equal, just some of us are more equal than others
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#249, derekbarker wrote:
" #220
Thegreatpaytaker/Cameron has promised, indeed!
What, to help those over the 50% tax margin to pay themselves less on an annual bases and increase their bonus payments so that they will escape the tax band?."
Derek,
Bonuses are - and as far as I can see have always been - part of taxable income. Some companies try to find weasley ways to pay in odd ways. But, eventually a bonus is taxable.
I had a notion that maybe bonuses should be hammered tax-wise at a higher rate than "basic salary income". Then realised that companies or government bodies would raise basic rates to "compensate" people lucky enough to achieve bonuses. So no real gain for the tax-payer!
I don't much like a bonus culture. How many traders inside banks use their own money, their own trading platforms, their infrastructure to make loot? None really. So there have been disproportionate rewards for people with relatively limited personal exposure. Why? Not sure. But Blair and Brown obviously liked it.
Until the carousel ground to a halt and tax take dropped through the floor. THAT "bad banks!" reaction has nothing to do with "principles". If the government had bothered to oversee regulations they put in lace, at least the UK banks would not be in such a state.
Lots of the tax-take was channelled through badly defined processes (requiring masses of new public sector employees to execute) to deliver
limited benefits to the poorest.
I've worked with people from different countries/ backgrounds/ previous wealth/ actual earning power/ commonsense. It has always been difficult to predict which ones would have the biggest social conscience. And rarely had anything to do with the political party they supported.
Most of what I call the "good guys and gals" tried to make things work properly. So they could decide what cause to invest in.
I'm not anti or pro any political party. But I hate governments wasting tax-payers' money that could be used to create new opportunities for people who need hope.
What about you?
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#292 Susan
Hello Susan, the trouble is that companies aren't actually 'leaving' the UK, they're simply employing tax avoidance tactics and setting-up a tiny (sometimes so tiny that several huge corporates often manage to fit into the offices of a small accountacy or legal practice) head office offshore.
Everything else stays here. If that sounds complicated basically what happens is the head office plaque moves to somewhere like Belize (now why did I choose Belize) along with a hefty chunk of tax payable but in an above-board, legally, sort of way.
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295. At 5:59pm on 06 Oct 2009, derekbarker wrote:
#291
Thegreatpaytaker, you were a director/heavens above, that explains the lot.
Reason to be weary part 3?.
--------------
Care to explain that comment?
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If you recall, during the MPs expenses scandal, the call from the public was for politicians to be HONEST.
Now one of them is being HONEST it will be interesting to see if the public remember what they asked and show support.
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Can I just say this has been the most biast coverage I have ever witnessed having watched party conferences for many years. From trying to instigate a row on Europe between Tory MP's, (anyone who watched Boris Johnson's interviews can see there was no problem with Cameron's position) then chasing Ken Clarke around like paparazi to get some kind of quote which they can misrepresent. Following that we see Osborne make a policy packed speech which was described as 'light' and then savaged by Andrew Neil yet he described Darling's speech last week which was a complete denial of the state of the countries as 'strong' - incredible. If you disagree with the policies that is absolutely fine, but describe it this way yet speak of Darlings hopeless effort so favourably was a complete joke. I wish I had video of the 1996 Labour Conference when the BBC were basically having a 'love-in' with Labour ministers, praising every announcement, every policy, no scrutiny whatsoever, the contrast in startling. The BBC clearly have an agenda to stop the conservatives winning power, (maybe to protect the bloated budget and inflated salaries) if they succeed, we should all remember the contribution they made to keep this diabolical Labour Government in power. We may as well be watching Chinese State Television - it really is the pits.
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Being 'honest' is one thing - being right is something else
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18. At 4:34pm on 06 Oct 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
...I'm a left wing voter. Not only do I earn far more than you no doubts (six figures), and own numerous properties. I'm also a fair bit more educated than you....
===
Mike Naylor, you are Geoff Hoon and I claim my £5.
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267. At 5:13pm on 06 Oct 2009, sterling-donefor
Ooops. Beat me to it. Sorry.
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The latest figures I can find, 2005 , show 5,648,000 people employed in the public sector.
Again the latest figures I can find show 2.4m in receipt of Incapacity benefit.
I have no idea how many are affected by the proposed change to retirement age but to make it worth doing it aint gonna be a dozen is it?
So ignoring the unknown pension group I make it that the Tories have promised over 8 million voters a worse time than they get now.
Unless turkeys now do vote for Christmas I would love to know how Dave
intends to get in with all those voters and their families no doubt ready to throttle him.
Perhaps I missed the announcement about the propsals to close tax avoidance schemes and the like.
Oh for a Macmillan. He was old school Tory. Sure featherd his own nest but ensured the rest of us did ok. Whether out of guilt, social conscience or to keep the barricades off the streets I neither know nore care. Point is he did it. Now we seem to have a Maggie in trousers in the wings, God help us all.
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For some weeks Messrs Marr, Paxman, and others have been grumbling that the Conservatives have been talking about cuts but not really giving any indication of where the cuts will be made. Now we have some policies and of course the Government leaked one of their own yesterday. I think that the electorate understands the gravity of the situation and the Conservatives deserve support on the basis of their candour. We all recall the summer PMQs where GB kept on about Labour investment versus Tory cuts. Lets shine the spotlight on Alastair Darling who must be feeling very uncomfortable now for all sorts of reasons.
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301
Who are you accusing of being a free for all "pirate" TV company?
Not the commercial ones, that only benefit insofar as they are succesful I hope?
Shorely shome mishtake.
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308. At 6:34pm on 06 Oct 2009, jthredland wrote:
Being 'honest' is one thing - being right is something else
---------
but being left is just misguided
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DB @ 298
O' Behave sagamix! you saucy minx
Sleeping With The Enemy! ... seen it?
66 @ 296
it might be possible to raise income tax rates in the way Sagamix suggested, but probably it would have to be on a short term basis with a view to repairing the worst of the deficit
that's what I mean, John - exactly that - it's the obvious thing to do and I can't for the life of me understand why it isn't (as al Megrahi always was, apparently) "on the table"
it was this stubborn (and peculiarly British) refusal to set appropriate levels of personal income tax which played a major part in creating this deficit in the first place
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311. At 6:40pm on 06 Oct 2009, xTunbridge wrote:
So ignoring the unknown pension group I make it that the Tories have promised over 8 million voters a worse time than they get now.
-------
Everybody is going to have a worse time than they get now - it's just that Labour won't admit it yet. There only strategy is to hope that a miracle occurs, but of course it won't.
Like it or not, we are all faced with the usual post-labour party hangover.
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214. At 4:32pm on 06 Oct 2009, MarkofSOSH wrote:
'We're all in this together', says Osbourne. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but all the measures he outlined to start reducing the national debt do seem to be rather tsrgeted at those towards the bottom end of the scale.
---------------------------------------------
Ah, the wee WE word.
[1]. So George, we are all Millionairs like You, and Davy are we?
[2]. We will all still be able to have a Life-Style like You, and Davy, will we?
[3]. We will all have a Job like You, and Davy after any Conservative Government is through with cutting back on Public Expenditure, will we?
[4]. We will all have enought money to live on and pay for Bills like You, and Davy while you are in Office, will we?
If you answer YES to all of the above [4] Questions, then YES we are in in this together, otherwise WE is over simplistic a word for the many, and will the last one out Please turn out the Lights, for WE cannot afford to keep Britains lights burning if WE are all Unemployed.
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As I have noted here before..a bit of analysis of Mike Naylors posts is revealing.
In a period of 58 minutes 'he' has posted 18 times..an average of 3'22" for each. Yet each one would take longer then that to type and place.
Last time I did this 'he' posted 13 times in 39 minutes..an average of 3 minutes each..with the same 'difficulty' of typing speed.
'He' does not exist..it is either a team or a program,with some human input.
Ignore the Troll.
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#297 extremesense
Agree with your points about tax avoidance. I know Labour have tried various initiatives in this area (having to register an avoidance scheme in advance, for example), but I'm not sure how sucessful they were. The LibDems also raised this, but last time I looked they included 40% pension tax relief in their list of tax avoidance, which is not what most people understand tax avoidance to be.
Rules for corporate taxation are more complicated and need international co-operation. Didn't the G7 (or 10 or 20) make some announcements recently? I'm sure the next Government will continue this co-operation. Will it lead anywhere? I don't know.
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#166 U14147588 May I call you U14?
I read your response to my contribution at #149 with bemusement. For the avoidance of doubt, my reference to Brown having built a client state was a criticism rather than praise, and my forecast that proposing to put things right will cost the Tories votes was a concern, rather than a hope.
My hope is that Labour will suffer heavy defeat when the election commes. My fear is that they just might not.
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#313
Thegreatpaytaker, I'm accusing you. Now! that wasn't to difficult to swallow was Mr Director of total nonsense.
You see, guy's like you always think your better, brighter and more aligned, Hmmmm!look,the tories have just increased their slop by about another 6% degree's stop defying the law of gravity and give up the tory plugging.
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316 Sterling-Donefor
Yes I should have said Labour are no better, perhaps worse as they should know better. But "labour" died with John Smith.
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No313 greathaye,
It is well known that News International is hostile to the EU.The Bullingdon Kid has made it plain to his supporters that they are to be betrayed over the question of a referendum. Is he already taking his orders from Rupert? Will UKIP be wreaking havoc in Tory seats, particularly in the south? In the event of Dave making it to Downing Street, how long will it be before we see little Willie Hague in his baseball cap, and Dave and George in their club uniforms standing at Beachy Head waving their Union Jacks and shouting abuse across the channel to all those nasty foreiners?
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Nick, do you really believe that the electorate are stupid enough not to take this life-prolonging medicine from George Osborne? Are they ignorant enough to believe the lies and half-truths of Gordon Brown, the man who took the Great out of Britain? When he said 'no more boom and bust' he was half right. No more boom for the longterm forseeable future, but we are well and truly bust and it is your job to convey this fact to Joe Public. We have a massive, massive loan which is accruing interest as I write and is going to get worse not better with more uncosted vote-flirting spending plans announced last week by Labour. We are bankrupt, tell them the truth!
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"I will however say this - it would be far better to keep paying your civil servants a reasonable wage and to simply reduce their numbers. Cutting costs by cutting salaries in the public sector is likely to drive the best and brightest to the private sector."
This comment is very much open to debate. Firstly, the private sector is already cutting jobs (as well as pay), so they are hardly likely to go around immediately hiring a bunch of redundant snivel servants. Secondly, I believe it was Honda (correct me if I am wrong), who recently gave their workers the option of keeping pay levels the same and letting a fair few go, or keeping most people on but reducing their wages. Overwhelmingly, the workforce voted for the latter.
I rather feel your rants involve an awful lot of self-interest (is this typical of the Labour-sympathising public sector?), and appears to be in direct contrast to the private sector, who, as in Honda's situation, are far likelier to be happy to let everybody feel a little pain rather than an unfortunate few feel a lot of pain.
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#218, Mike_Naylor wrote:
".... How dare you refer to a political point, by labelling someone being from a "benefit generation".
It's the exact right wing trash and snobbery that's kept the blues out of power. And the only reason they may get back in, is by completely dropping this pathetic behaviour.
It's people like you that the tory party have had to ditch, to become a viable option in power.
I'm a left wing voter. Not only do I earn far more than you no doubts (six figures), and own numerous properties. I'm also a fair bit more educated than you...."
Mike_N,
Difficult to work out whether you are a real bigot or someone pretending to be a left-wing personality with rabid views trying to encourage people to believe you're actually a Tory pretending to be a left wing voter to encourage "class hatred".
What on earth has "wealth" got to do with "social conscience"?
Plenty of multi-millionaires support Labour politics. On the whole, they don't try and rub the faces of opponents into the dirt.
Plenty of similar support Tories, or LibDems, but don't seem to claim that having the readies means they somehow have a better perspective on life.
Not even sure that people with similar backgrounds, similar income or wealth, similar exposure in a real world, or even similar educational backgrounds actually differ that much about the worry that any society can get so unbalanced.
Mike, posts are slow to get moderated. But, I'd guess that Saga would come in and suggest you should have a good night down at the pub. And push a lot of dosh into the charity boxes. Maybe start a local community innitiative. Pay for somebody to create a local choir. Encourage people to actually love young people for what they could do and find a way to combat generational fear.
Then come back and prove it works. It used to.
What are you giving back, Mike? People on minimal income are forced to pay tax. Why? "Left-wing government" suit you?
I'm no great fan of Charles, but the Prince's Trust seems to deliver at above average as a foundation. Why is there not more of that from a "left-wing government"?
Too much cr@p for me.
I don't care how much you earn. How much do you care, to offer your income back into the "community"?
My parents and grandparents poured loads of love and money towards me and sister - and very many other young people they wanted to help. They voted all over the place. As I tend to.
This time, there really is no choice. Brown has probably been the worst Chancellor (and based on his record) worst PM I have experienced. Having a "good idea" doesn't mean a thing. Making things work is what makes a difference for most of us - less than six-figure income, multi-home owning - little folk.
Bit hard to have "I've made it, you haven't" stuff raining down from a left-voting person.
Without even saying if you enjoyed the private/independent education that so many Labour Ministers seem to have been through, but feel is "bad" for "our" children, but quite OK for theirs.
Quite frankly, I don't give one whether somebody says they are red/blue/yellow (should that be orange)/tartan. If they don't DELIVER then we are all washing around in a sea of wasted taxes.
As a six-figure income type, which bits of the 6-7 Billion current tax income do you believe could be trimmed a bit, so my kids don't have to pay off totally unnecessary debts?
Totally non-political, of course.
If you
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For Scotland, the message is not as Nick describes but rather: "We don't much care whether you vote for us or not as whatever you do we're not even going to implement the Calman report that we [along with the other Tweedles] insisted the Scottish Government pay for."
As you might expect, in combination with the other unionists' determination to have a referendum on something whilst doing their utmost to deny one to the Scottish people, is most unlikely to win them new friends.
I had previously genuinely wondered whether Cameron wants to be the last PM of the UK and the first of England or whether he really wants to "renew" the union while the ersatz NuLab unionists rightly implode, but I think it's now clear that if the option is to be cock of a smaller Westmidden or to create a democratic, federal UK where the PM would have less power his vision is unerringly fixed on climbing to the top of Disraeli's, soon to be somewhat shorter, greasy pole.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#303 fairlyopenmind
Osborne today said he wanted to turn Britain into a saving haven!.
That's pretty difficult for those on an income of 18,000 or less, wouldn't you agree.
So a saving nation, sound as if Osborne has direction on less tax on savings, opening another loophole for those big bonus gift's.
Tax those bonuses what ever there value at the highest rate, leave the current rate of 20p in income for those under 25,00 per ann: and raising the rate higher for those above at 30% then 40% and 50%, look, taxation is what drives any government, it's time for those who can afford to pay more, to do so.
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At last we are beginning to get some realism and honesty to help get us out of this mess.
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23. At 7:07pm on 06 Oct 2009, braveSouter wrote:
It is well known that News International is hostile to the EU.The Bullingdon Kid has made it plain to his supporters that they are to be betrayed over the question of a referendum. Is he already taking his orders from Rupert? Will UKIP be wreaking havoc in Tory seats, particularly in the south? In the event of Dave making it to Downing Street, how long will it be before we see little Willie Hague in his baseball cap, and Dave and George in their club uniforms standing at Beachy Head waving their Union Jacks and shouting abuse across the channel to all those nasty foreiners?
******************************************
I could make some really nasty remark about this rather childish posting. But I won't. Suffice to say that I am undecided about where my vote will go and was hoping that soe of the comments on here would guide me. At the moment I am strongly of the view that I couldn't possibly support any party that has you in it.
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What is the alternative to being honest and up front with people? Another 5 years of lies, deceit, stealth taxes and moral bankruptcy from a Labour government? I know which I would choose. At least public sector workers still have their final salary scheme, a very lax paid sickness regime and flexible working arrangments, if you want it, plus a more than reasonable security of tenure. So having a pay freeze for a year, rather than losing your job, doesn`t seem to be a bad deal to me.
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BraveSouter 323
What a load of claptrap and a diatribe that does you absolutely no credit at all.
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Sadly they have lost me and I suspect a goodly number of the hard pressed public sector workers
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Mike_Naylor wrote:
"I'm a left wing voter. Not only do I earn far more than you no doubts (six figures), and own numerous properties. I'm also a fair bit more educated than you."
How Vulgar!
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311. At 6:40pm on 06 Oct 2009, xTunbridge wrote:
The latest figures I can find, 2005 , show 5,648,000 people employed in the public sector.
Again the latest figures I can find show 2.4m in receipt of Incapacity benefit.
I have no idea how many are affected by the proposed change to retirement age but to make it worth doing it aint gonna be a dozen is it?
------------------------------------------
I've heard that total number that will be affected by the proposed changes to State Retirement Pension Age shake-up could top 5 Million, therefore add this number into the other figures you have already quoted and you might only end up with those Voting for the Conservative Grand Master Plan at the next General Election will be made up of their die-hard supporters that are in tune scrip-writing on this blog-page.
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328. At 7:24pm on 06 Oct 2009, derekbarker wrote:
#303 fairlyopenmind
Osborne today said he wanted to turn Britain into a saving haven!.
That's pretty difficult for those on an income of 18,000 or less, wouldn't you agree.
------------------------------------------
Of course everyone in their right mind would agree, for just where on Earth doe's Boy George think that: The Unemployed, Students, Pensioners, and Low - Paid Workers will find any additional Cash over at the end of the week to Invest like Millions Boy George himself, and Davy along with all his other Elite Friends.
For all others there will be too much Week left over at the end of their Job Seekers Allowance.
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Nick are you suggesting after 12 years of Labour lies and spin a bit of honesty is a big gamble, obviously working for the BBC it is in your interest to wish for your nice annual pay rise and gold plated pension but for the vast majority of working people Brown has wrecked the private pensions in his great social engineering project that will leave our Grandkids having to pay for.As Maggie once said "the trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples money"
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Or as Churchill once said "Socialism is misery shared by everyone."
How true Brown has shown that to be.
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333. At 7:39pm on 06 Oct 2009, charles-h wrote:
Sadly they have lost me and I suspect a goodly number of the hard pressed public sector workers
--------------------------------------
Now we have seen the TRUE Colours of what the Conservatives are proposing should they heavens forbid were to win the next General Election, for they will find that they will from now onwards in this the run-up period to the next Election will see themselves going downwards in the Polls of Voting intension, for in Political Terms they have by bringing what ammounts to bringing forward annoucing
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76. At 2:13pm on 06 Oct 2009, Mark_WE wrote:
Had a good chuckle to myself on this one, more of these comments please.
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IM @ 334
nothing "vulgar" about it - day in day out we see on here tory leaning posters caricaturing the labour vote as being made up of "dolies" and public sector "drones" - in saying that, these people are setting themselves up to be "better" than those who are on the Left - this thing from Michael (and I know because he told me) is a satirical riposte to that is all - nicely done and (what's more important) effective
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Of course people are likely to think twice about voting for someone if they will lose out personally.
The fact that its necessary to get the country to live within its means and prevent eventual economic collapse is irrelevant to many.
However, people should also look at how much it may reduce the debt being built up in their name.. giving you £1k and then saying you or your descendants now owes £2k + interest may sound good initially but is a bad deal.
In anything there are winners and losers, currently the losers are future generations of taxpayers with low use of public services; at the end of the day they'll be the ones expected to pay for our excesses, or try to pass the debt on to subsequent generations.
After any time of excess cuts are needed to try to balance the books and save the economy from total ruin, the fact that hits some people who have previously benefited from those excesses is always a political issue and a poisoned pill to whoever has to tidy up an economic mess.
In many ways high dependency on public funds can be seen as buying votes, encouraging people to vote to protect their self interest regardless of the consequences to the nation. As they say "turkeys don't vote for Christmas".
Much of labours funding being via public sector unions, also means its in labours financial interest to spend more on pay to this area.
The issue is, if you work in the private sector, why would you vote to finance the labour party to allow it to use even more of your money to "buy" votes by making people dependent on the government for their income?
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I actually think Nick that the Conservatives have been quite smart in announcing the economic measures they are intending to introduce if they win. If, as many are saying, they alienate too many voters in the process (witness all those 'turkeys don't vote for Christmas' comments on this blog), well, at least if they lose they can fairly and squarely blame the next Labour government for the ever increasing mess the country will find itself in. If, OTH, they win, in spite of their announcements of cuts etc (and presumably which will be in their manifesto), then they will have a clear and unambiguous mandate to do whatever is necessary to put the country's economy to rights, however painful it may be.
Labour however, have painted themselves into a corner. While they are currently being forced to announce things that I am sure they would rather keep secret in order to win the next election, they are still in spend-spend mode (as per Brown's announcements at the Labour conference). They would then be faced with - do we keep our spending promises to the electorate (I know, Labour has never kept a promise yet, but let's presume they keep this one), and spend their (and our) way to oblivion? Or do they renege on their spending promises and risk alienating virtually EVERY voter (supporter and opponent alike) over the next 4 or 5 years? Which would mean they will most certainly be consigned to history for ever.
Sometimes, honesty IS the best policy.
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110. At 2:42pm on 06 Oct 2009, tisfedup wrote:
well done george, someone had to start telling it how it is, we all know you only scratched the surface of what we really need to do, but people have been so comfortable for so long the shock would be to much to take all at once. people and the public sector have to start to understand it is not the government that creates our wealth that provides all our services, and public sector jobs. it is not a compulsory right that we are all entitled to all the benefits that we as a nation have built. It is the private sector that make all of this possible, so think about it, not only have they lost the bulk of employment, they have had their wages frozen, hours cut,(some voluntarily to protect their jobs)so it's only right that the public sector have the same pain.
it is the job of governement to manage the finance raised, to promote our country,etc something this labour government has been woeful at every turn.
here's a small snapshot
Labour’s legacy, lest we forget:-
* £22,500 of debt for every child born in Britain
* 111 tax rises from a government that promised no tax rises at all
* The longest national tax code in the world
* 100,000 million pounds drained from British pension funds
* Gun crime up by 57%
* Violent crime up 70%
* The highest proportion of children living in workless households anywhere in Europe
* The number of pensioners living in poverty up by 100,000
* The lowest level of social mobility in the developed world
* The only G7 country with no growth this year
* One in six young people neither earning nor learning
* 5 million people on out-of –work benefits
* Missing the target of halving child poverty
* Ending up with child poverty rising in each of the last three years instead
* Cancer survival rates among the worst in Europe
* Hospital-acquired infections killing nearly three times as many people as are killed on the roads
* Falling from 4th to 13th in the world competitiveness league
* Falling from 8th to 24th in the world education rankings in maths
* Falling from 7th to 17th in the rankings in literacy
* The police spending more time on paperwork than on the beat
* Fatal stabbings at an all-time high
* Prisoners released without serving their sentences
* Foreign prisoners released and never deported
* 7 million people without an NHS dentist
* Small business taxes going up
* Business taxes raised from among the lowest to among the highest in Europe
* Tax rises for working people set for after the election
* The 10p tax rate abolished
* And the ludicrous promise to have ended boom and bust
* Our gold reserves sold for a quarter of their worth
* Our armed forces overstretched and under-supplied
* Profitable post offices closed against their will
* One of the highest rates of family breakdown in Europe
* The ‘Golden Rule’ on borrowing abandoned when it didn’t fit
* Police inspectors in 10,Downing Street
* Dossiers that were dodgy
* Mandelson resigning the first time
* Mandelson resigning the second time
* Mandelson coming back for a third time
* Bad news buried
* Personal details lost
* An election bottled
* A referendum denied,
curtesy of 'lest we forget' guido blog.
What about excessive political correctness, or did I miss it in there somewhere?
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#218
"People who work longer live longer. Scientifically proven fact."
I'm guessing you are referring to a statistical relationship...
However, cause and effect is much harder to prove.
Is it that people who are healthier and likely to live longer work longer?
the work that keep someone stimulated and prolongs life?
Some other factor impacting both; e.g. people who want to work longer are more motivated and do more to maintain their health.
Unless ceteris paribus observations are made (which given the fact people are unique and only have 1 life is somewhat awkward) proving direct causality is somewhat challenging.
Such relationships are often claimed to be causal in government statistics, but rarely substantiated as such.
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Are we moving from New labour to Modern Conservative?(NuLab to ModCon?)
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324#
"Nick, do you really believe that the electorate are stupid enough not to take this life-prolonging medicine from George Osborne? "
He probably isnt bothered one way or the other. But, if he was pressed on an answer I think he'd probably say yes.
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Looks like Charlie's locked up the cell for the night. Thank god for that, back to normal.
Somebody sound the Air Raid Warning All Clear....
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Hmmm! Day two of the tory conference.The tories say they will force million back to work?.
Day three of the tory conference.The tories say they will cut one third of the public services employment?.
Do they know what they are doing?.
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Interesting how the turkeys voting for Christmas analogy is being used.
What the turkeys would do well to bear in mind is that whether they vote for Christmas or not.... Christmas still comes, regardless. They cant put it off forever.
And the turkeys end up being stuffed anyway.
Gobble Gobble Gobble, indeed......
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#273 b-b-jack wrote:
"The trouble on these pages is that there are too many people who are happy to allow the borrow and spend philosophy currently practiced. That is based on figures that are mired in confusion and few if any know the exact figure that we need to pay in order to attempt to be solvent."
Of course the figures are mired in confusion, the treasury has never provided true figures and reinterprets accounting standards (IFRS) in its own particular way, you would think that they were deliberately to hide things (such as the mess they have helped get the country into).
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tenmaya @ 344
what about excessive political correctness?
I hear this a lot and have no clue what is meant by it - so what do you mean please? - just what would YOU be doing (or saying) if it wasn't for "excessive political correctness" preventing you?
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Just listened to Mr Osborne's speach and I know that he is pushing against an open door in my case, but I was pleasantly surprised at how well he did. I found it difficult to disagree with anything that was said or proposed.
It will be interesting to see the next opinion polls, as I have thought that when a politician had the nerve to speak the hard truth, some support would evaporate. After all it is easy to agree to increased tax and cuts to expenditure when you think that it will be someone else that will suffer.
In my,(biased) view the Tories deserve to have their lead increased following today and if it is then some of my faith in the British people being able to see the bigger picture rather than no further than their own circumstances will be restored.
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339. At 8:13pm on 06 Oct 2009, LondonHarris wrote:
Now we have seen the TRUE Colours of what the Conservatives are proposing should they heavens forbid were to win the next General Election, for they will find that they will from now onwards in this the run-up period to the next Election will see themselves going downwards in the Polls of Voting intension, for in Political Terms they have by bringing what ammounts to bringing forward annoucing
Please put the bottle (Tesco's Value Vodka?) back in the cabinet and sleep it off!
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#328, derekbarker wrote:
Derek,
I haven't spotted any suggestion that tax rates should be reduced for people who have incomes higher than mine (and maybe yours?)
I quite like the idea of people saving - if they can afford it - rather than being encouraged to borrow unaffordable amounts with "sub-prime" implications.
I believe that happened in the UK under a regulatory environment introduced by and overseen by Gordon Brown.
When I was a lad, it was hard to borrow money. Brown allowed finance houses to lend on really high "income-to-loan" and "loan-to asset-value" deals. I never understood why a government wouldn't step in and say "enough's more than we can bear as an economy". They could have chosen to slow down credit bubbles. Didn't bother. A Labour problem. Even in previous hosuing booms, loans were fairly hard to come by.
I can't remember that as a "Thatcher event". Do you have some other evidence?
I liked some Thatcher stuff. Badly run, incompetent, state owned corporations having to get a bit real. Rotten labour-worker/owner relationships? Absolutely no doubt. Companies owned by the State, who couldn't tackle rediculous practices that drove the UK to it's knees.
Derek,
I'd love there to be a social agreement that children (under-aged girls and guys) or others don't produce children "because they can" and assume everybody else should pay to bring them up.
Or assume that people with a back problem (hand up here) can't do anything productive, or those with damaged feet, can't contribute to society.
Reality fades, when you take a little peak at the way people manage to live in many parts of Africa or Asia. "Human rights"? What they? If we took a big chunk of the nonsensical garbage that government imposes via "public services" and applied it to people who have real - desperate - needs, I'd be a happy chappy.
Any one know a UK citizen/subject who has to walk 5 miles to find water?
Any one know a Westminster MP who could probably earn more outside the Westminster system than they collect from OUR taxes? I could name quite a few.
Any chance that current Ministers will find a sanctually in the "real-world" economy when they get kicked out?
Derek, I hate waste in government. Don't care which party is in power. Waste could be converted into good stuff for people trying to improve their lives.
How do you feel? Good is Red? Good could be Blue? Could even be Yellow? Or Tartan?
I don't give a bit about the big ideas and media spin. Or their "political origins" - just how well things are actually delivered.
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I believe in miracles.
It is just possible that the English voters may just decide that 'none of the above' is the most appropriate response at the next General Election.
It is fantastical thinking and I must lay off the magic mushrooms but in that world, the three mainstream parties support has crumbled away and a totally fresh bunch of chancers have been err, given a chance.
Could they do any worse than Labour or the Tories?
It's worth a try but does the binary Labour/Tory 'choice' which swamps the media, act to block out the voters critical faculties, such that they literally cannot see any other choices, which are deprived of the oxygen of media publicity.
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The very big question that all you Tory supporters ignore is ...Is Osborne being honest...my view is that he is a chancer looking for power and that rules out real honesty
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Mr Barker I think that you are trying to be deliberately misleading. In Mr Osborne's speach he committed to cutting the cost of Whitehall by one third not to cutting jobs by one third. Whilst this will no doubt lead to fewer people being employed in the civil service over time it is not the same thing as you infer and I think that you know this.
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Let's hope that Mr Osbourne and Co are not taking economic lessons from their new Latvian friends given the money difficulties in the Baltics.
More seriously why should anyone vote Tory? They still don't get the modern world. The British Empire is long dead, the USA is in decline. Medium sized powers are just that. The only block for Britain to be part of is Europe. Its time the Tories dumped the infantile tabloid half truths about Europe.
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dhwilkinson @ 346
You ask are we moving from New labour to Modern Conservative? (NuLab to ModCon?).
It would appear so, if the polls are to be believed.
But many floating voters, the only ones who actually count in our distorted democracy, seem to harbour the suspicion that ModCon stands for Modern Con-trick.
Which it almost certainly will turn out to be, just as Blair 97' also turned out to be a gigantic confidence trick.
This Englishman is one very jaded voter who has never voted for any mainstream party, and would almost feel suicidal if he had, given their depressing track-record.
To be fair, nobody is saying that governing England and the English is an easy job but surely we English can elect more representative people of us than the very tired retreads of Conservatives, Labour or Lib-Dems.
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There seems to be a very good chance that The Tories just do not have a clue what they are doing we hear many soundbites in a day we hear contradictory policies ..eg they are going to increase employment but at the same time cut public expenditure...my view is that each £100k of cuts costs at least 5 jobs so work it out for yourselves is that what we want
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"I dread to think what David Chameleon and George Osborne will do if they get hold of the economy, Brown may not be pretty but he did the business"
did the business? a statement of pure ignorance if ever there was one!
brown has been THE most financially incompetant chancellor in the history of UK politics!
brown has also been the most deceiptful prime minister in history, ive lost count of how many times his "say one thing and do another" politics have come back to haunt him.
as for him doing the business, under brown's "leadership" the population currently 40 and under, will now have to work for years longer before they can retire as the pensions pot has been decimated - a direct result of brown's failing policies!
it is compounded still further by the fact that when he came to office of government in 1997, he inherited the strongest set of public accounts for an incoming chancellor and a pension provision for the people of the UK, that you would have been very hard pressed to find beaten by another country in the WORLD!
labour have spun themselves up their own backsides, and with any luck at the general election, the public will kick them into at least the middle of the century!
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358. At 9:13pm on 06 Oct 2009, oldsitkaspruce wrote:
The very big question that all you Tory supporters ignore is ...Is Osborne being honest...my view is that he is a chancer looking for power and that rules out real honesty
----
Perhaps 12 years of the current chancers in power has made you cynical?
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darling and brown are spinning the line that they will protect front line services as opposed to the conservatives vicious cuts.
to cut back now as we come out of recession, brown says, would be foolish and do more harm than good!
so when we have to go to the IMF for a bail out (as the groundwork has already been laid by mandleson) and the IMF tell us we have to get our house in order and show that we are reducing our national debt levels, will darling and brown then adopt conservative policy to acheive these savings?
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358 Oldsitkaspruce
An interesting theory - telling people that they have to work longer before they get their pension, can't have theie IHT reform, Pay cuts, pay freezes, retention of the 50% tax - seems to me that a chancer would have talked around these issues if he was desperate for power. Unfortunately we have become so used to spin and subterfuge over the last twelve year that some people have difficulty in spotting honesty when it confronts them
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I think the proposals sound great! It may not be easy but with the massive debt created by the Labour Government, something needs to be done. At least George Osborne is being honest and upfront about what it will take to pay back the debt - it will be difficult.
I'm sure some working in the public sector will complain about not getting a pay rise but a large number of people who work in the private sector have not had a pay rise this year and unlikely to do so next year also - including those whose annual salary is less than 18k. The private sector has also suffered a large number of redundancies and at the moment we are constantly at risk of further redundancies. So hearing public sector workers moaning about the same things doesn't exactly concern me - ok its not great for people not to get a payrise or lose their job but unfortunately I think it will be necessary for the public sector if the national debt is to be reduced.
I think its a good idea cutting the child tax credit for the higher earning families. At the end of the day 50K is enough to bring kids up - my parents earned much less than that between them when I was growing up, and ok my brother and I didn't have designer clothes or the latest games console but we certainly didn't go without. Maybe it would make kids these days appreciate what they have more rather than always "needing" the latest trainers.
I like the proposal for getting people back to work. Yes there are people on incapacity benefits who genuinely need them - including those with mental disabilities or depression who are unable to work, as well as those with physical disabilties. But there are those who could work and going on jobseeker's allowance would be the correct benefit for them and maybe encourage them to work. The way I read it, they are going to give people training and help to work - surely if you can work then it is best to work and may even make some people feel more worthwhile and happier. I have a good friend with fairly severe physical disability and has issues with her short term memory too, and yet she does volunteer work via a charity. She often says to me she wishes there was more help available to her to enable her to get a job, she says the times she volunteers she feels much more postive and more 'normal' - I think the plans proposed by the Conservatives would assist people like my friend.
Overall I think the Conservatives plans sound brilliant and what a breath of fresh air to have a political party being honest about what lies ahead. Time for Brown & Co to go, they've had 12 years and look at the state of this country and its finances!
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358. At 9:13pm on 06 Oct 2009, oldsitkaspruce wrote:
The very big question that all you Tory supporters ignore is ...Is Osborne being honest...my view is that he is a chancer looking for power and that rules out real honesty
Excuse me - Gordon Brown - honesty - are you mad?
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#356 fairlyopenmind
When Lehman Bros collapsed and that domino effect raced across nations and right into Britain, causing havoc and our banks to face their reality of over-spending. It was the Tories who advocated just to walk on by and let the recession take it's course.
While in the real world, the present government acted in double speed to mitigate the recession and save countless homes and jobs.
You see Fairly-foist, I want to live in a society that cares for all it's inhabitants, not just some who can afford to save,I want to live in a place were all children have the right to a fantastic education, not just the giving rich, I want to live in a country that shares it's wealth and doesn't allow some to live in mansions while others die in filth.I want my children to tell their children that there only fight was a fight against conservatism and every dawn is a new dawn to make life easier for all and not just some.
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Are we all perhaps wrongly treating these Tory proposals as a manifesto
inteded to win the election, when in fact they are a clever device to make damn sure they dont have to pick up the poison chalice left by Labour.
But surely they risk being hoist on a double bluff type petard of their own making. What politician has ever said vote for me and I will make your life worse than it is now with the intention of winning the vote?
But some of the posts on this site imply that people want to be worse off
in the hopeful belief that the foul medicine will cure the ills.
There never will have been an election like the one thats coming thats for sure.
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344 tenmaya:
"What about excessive political correctness, or did I miss it in there somewhere?"
You didn't miss it, but it's yet another thing we can't say these days, for fear of upsetting the poor little New Labour ministers who might be offended by any suggestion that their actions have been, in any way, correct....
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349. At 8:45pm on 06 Oct 2009, derekbarker wrote:
Hmmm! Day two of the tory conference.The tories say they will force million back to work?.
Day three of the tory conference.The tories say they will cut one third of the public services employment?.
Do they know what they are doing?.
****
Do you have the faintest idea how dumb that sounds?
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369. At 9:42pm on 06 Oct 2009, derekbarker wrote:
While in the real world, the present government acted in double speed to mitigate the recession and save countless homes and jobs.
How do you know "the present government's" actions have really made the situation better? That is impossible to judge. But, look at the debt! Do you understand what it actually means?
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358. At 9:13pm on 06 Oct 2009, oldsitkaspruce wrote:
The very big question that all you Tory supporters ignore is ...Is Osborne being honest...my view is that he is a chancer looking for power and that rules out real honesty
****
I'll answer it rather than ignore it.
Yes, he's being honest. Thanks tyo New Labour, this country is as far up a certain creek as it is possible to go, and getting back to where we should be is going to involve everyone geting their hands in the muck and paddling.
Thanks, Gordon - you're leaving a real stink behind.
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369 db:
Can I suggest you move to Russia? That's what Stalin wanted all those years ago, after all.
Now - exactly how did that all work out?
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#373 Inmoderation! pa! where do you think we would be without the bailout and stimulus, that every major economy in the world took.
#374 It's exactly how the tory conference has been shaped!
So Willy...........Laugh!
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We are heading for a phenomenal W recession in the apparently economic law defying unwitting west. Our impending decline is writ large on the wall of fiscal ignorance, 175 billion pounds of it and rising. Trying to recover is going to be hard with no production no resources and diminishing intellectual property
The Chinese and the Indians hold all the cards for low cost production and as they grow internal consumerism their products are become more expensive just look at how the cost of printer ink has risen over the last six months unless we play some very radical card, make some massive savings and reorganise our take take life styles and short term expectations we are set to disappear from the world stage in to a very poor isolated state.
This is not quick death either. The Roman Empire in school book history appeared to die over night, in reality if we analyse all the short comings of greed and carrying on regardless the actual decline was a painful acrimonious experience lasting several torturous generations.
We are set to go down the same road unless we cut our coat according to our cloth and between our bankers and our public sector we have very little cloth left to cut wake up this is not about rich, poor, sick, pensioner, education or health its about our survival as a socio-economic entity with some pride dignity and moral standing in the world.
The tragic reality is the ways we are going we will soon become a relic of creative industrialism a museum to Victorian enterprise and philanthropy of the West Coast of Europe.
We have to change now, not them, not the others, not the neighbours, but you, that means every last one of us must wise up to the reality of the situation.
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The truth is that we are seeing the least which George Osbourne could announce.
Anyone who gets in next year will have to cut or raise about 7 or 8 times the amount that was proposed today.
I think Vince Cable is the most honest of the politicians and being realistic about what's needed.
Its not going to be popular with anyone.
The BBC needs to be more responsible in its reporting and really help understanding and get this point over to help the politicians explain to the country - from all parties - we are in a big mess right now. How can you fill a gap of £175 billion - George Osbourne's proposal makes a maximum of £20 bn.... There is a long way to go.
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I suspect that this speech was to convince people that the cuts planned by the Conservatives were not going to be as bad as they really will be.
Osborne just showed us the tip of the iceberg but once the Conservatives are elected like New Labour they will show their true colours.
Our National Debt is in the billions and it won't be paid off by taxing the people for pounds and pennies.
I expect that things will be a great deal harsher than we have been told simply because of the scale of the task they are trying to address.
People are going to be asked to make some major sacrifices and for some it will involve some painful changes in lifestyle.
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369#
Good greif Del, I thought I could hear the Hollywood soundtrack behind that speech then. Some living in Mansions when others live in filth... their only fight was against conservatism... god, where do you think you are, Moscow c1915?
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@294 brave
you are correct, 1 referendum given by labour, yes it is 'almost' unforgivable the position ted heath (tory) put our country in, but in hind sight i will give the benefit of the doubt he did not envisage what is happening today,..mmm just.
and you are also right we are a laughing stock where EU is concerned, but fingers crossed that will change (i know,.. not alot of faith, but i do believe if treaty is not ratified DC will give us the referendum) unlike labour i think he will keep his promise), otherwise i can see many 'very unhappy people across EU forming dissident groups.
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358. At 9:13pm on 06 Oct 2009, oldsitkaspruce wrote:
The very big question that all you Tory supporters ignore is ...Is Osborne being honest...my view is that he is a chancer looking for power and that rules out real honesty
----------------------------------------------
Correct, for all that Osbourne can do is make up Policy, but will it all ever work to anyones advantage other than the Rich is the main Question, and in all honesty even he Boy George doe's not know the Answer, for whatever he may say it is all un-tested.
For we can all make eye watering announcements, for it is whether they will work that will in the end count.
Of course, the Tory's can just keep on continuing in re-stating already Labour Party Policies with a better level of Spin, and with even deeper Cuts, but in the end this will get them nowhere.
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#378 Hack-round
Steady! doomsday! O'.
Cameron and Osborne think things are so bad they want to hold a referendum to pull Britain out of Europe, where we are worth some 3trillion.
Attlee's government was in a worst state, yet it introduced the social welfare and NHS system.
The 20Bn cuts were Cameron's 2005 manifesto pledges, the tories would cut spending whether or not a recession existed.
Why the hell is Little Britain still trying to hold on to it's past imperial ghost, why do we continue to have a nuclear deterrent that is unaffordable.Will the tories commit to ending that?.
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why does anyone bother responding to derekbarker.his only expertise is in making things up on be half of his master, maximum imbecile, then repeating it as often as possible. oops i just responded didn't I.
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I listened with interest to the shadow chancellor’s speech this afternoon and the one on tax credits interested me. Namely the intention not to pay tax credits to those families with an income in excess of £50,000pa.
Whilst I can understand the rationale behind this, I believe there is a possibility that the shadow chancellor may have misunderstood some of the complexities of tax credits, (he wouldn’t be the only one.)
Consider the following simplified example.
Dan and Doris both work and both earn £26,000pa. They have two children aged 5 and 7.
Under the current system there are two alternatives in terms of entitlement, depending on whether child care costs are paid or not.
With no child care costs Dan and Doris would currently receive tax credits of £431pa.
The shadow chancellor’s proposal would therefore cost Dan and Doris just over £8pw.
Applying the current test to Dan and Doris tax credits entitlement if they were paying childcare costs we get, assuming that they pay the maximum allowable child care costs ( £300pw for both children) and no more, they would under current rules qualify for £5,413.80pa of tax credits.
A straight cut off point of £50,000pa would mean that Dan and Doris lose the equivalent of £104.11pw.
You can check my maths but if I was Dan or Doris I would be slightly anxious right now.
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I admire Osbourne for being honest so far ahead of the election. He seems serious about tackling the debt crisis, unlike Brown who tries to pretend there is no problem. It would be so nice to have a government with a vision of some sort, as Labour are clearly lost. I like that the Tories are protecting the vulnerable. Labour can call them the "nasty Tories" but they're actually looking after the worse off - something Labour USED to do.
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377 derekbarker
I know it's a job that nobody else has succeeded with but I will have a go (again) at bringing you back to reality.
WHAT STIMULUS???
VAT cut - minute effect but £15 billions thrown away. It has had no discernible effect on the retail economy.
Scrappage - minimal scheme: remember this is subsidising predominantly imported cars. The scrappage scheme doesn't even offset price rises due to the falling pound.
The rest - a few trivial little schemes that have helped mere tens of people at best. Most of what has been announced has never been implemented.
Derek, get away from fantasy Labour propaganda world and back to reality. There has been NO STIMULUS! You cannot identify any positive effect in the UK economy from any package that has been called "stimulus".
"STIMULUS" is a total fabrication.
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369. At 9:42pm on 06 Oct 2009, derekbarker wrote:
...I want to live in a society that cares for all it's inhabitants, not just some who can afford to save,I want to live in a place were all children have the right to a fantastic education, not just the giving rich, I want to live in a country that shares it's wealth and doesn't allow some to live in mansions while others die in filth.I want my children to tell their children that there only fight was a fight against conservatism and every dawn is a new dawn to make life easier for all and not just some.
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...I want to live in a society that cares for all it's inhabitants, not just some
But only after MPs lined their own pockets with tax payers money first.
I want to live in a place were all children have the right to a fantastic education,
Where record numbers of children leave school unable to read or write.
I want to live in a country that shares it's wealth and doesn't allow some to live in mansions while others die in filth.
Where ministers use taxpayers money to build property portfolios or have mock tudor beams installed.
I want my children to tell their children that there only fight was a fight
Against Iraq which was possibly an illegal fight and followed by an invasion of Afghanistan which cannot be won. Where troops were ill equipped.
and every dawn is a new dawn to make life easier for all and not just some.
unless you are a criminal in which case you will be treated better than your victim.
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hahaha my god look at the bbc scrabberlers on newsnight, bbc pathetic show. bbc must be so used to be told to spin untruths, they really dont realise the games up no one is being taken in anymore, well hopefully, i do i do have faith in the British public, i know, as is evident from this blog there will always be the envious, brainwashed, no mind of their own, or paid few. shame on you bbc why don't we all start again, bbc report the news as it is, show exactly what the politicians have to say, without all the bbc innuendo, bias, etc, and let people judge for themselves, or does that go against....aahhh, what's the point, the British public will have their say soon enough.
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377 Derek Barking:
#374 It's exactly how the tory conference has been shaped!
So Willy...........Laugh!
*****
Yes, for once I agree. The shape of Tory policy, the need for today's refreshing honesty and open-ness about the trouble ahead, which is the only way out of the morass we are in thanks to your New Labout paymasters, has been dictated by the way of the nation today. And we are in this mess thanks to twelve years of foolhardy fiscal, legal, and social policies dreamed up by mcClown, Bliar, and his little Darling.....
Somehow I doubt that's what you were thinking, but it doesn't make me wrong or you right.
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385. At 10:51pm on 06 Oct 2009, tisfedup wrote:
"why does anyone bother responding to derekbarker."
Quite right tis. We should ignore him, as attention only makes him worse. He's what Peter Mandelson would apparently call a "Chump."
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#388 JR
Perry! old boy, you must have been on the Sherry and missed the stimulus.
I hope your bottle neck is not thinning to much.
Seriously old chap, do you just fabricate for the sake of a response?.
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@392 bert
very good, lol, chump will certainly have a new definition in dictionary, haha.
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In 1995 the then conservative government decided to tackle the rising numbers of people claiming invalidity benefit by replacing it with a much tougher and less generous benefit, called 'incapacity benefit'. At the time the BBC ran a series called 'the system' that amongst other things followed the then much younger william Hague working with his civil servants on it. That so many people were claiming Invalidity benefit was a direct consequence of the governments of the 80's hiding the rise in joblessness within a benefit that wasn't counted in the monthly unemployment statistics. As i understand it a significant number of the current IB claim count is inside this group, mostly men fast approaching retirement age. Indeed do nothing and the IB count will drop by over a million fairly soon as they all move on to their pension. Once again we have both a government and an opposition blaming the sick for the ills of this country. Very soon they will move on to the unemployed, and when the fad for distinguishing the new 'middle class' unemployed from the older 'working class' unemployed ends then it will be their fault this country is in this mess and they will stop being victims and become the feckless. Who is to blame for this mess, not the sick or the unemployed, they couldn't get mortgages at five times their joint income, or credit cards or store cards or any of the trappings of the last decade. Gordon Brown and his government may have made it possible for you dear reader to do all that, but you didn't have to. Who is responsible for the mess, look in the mirror.
And by the way if i became unemployed today i would make every effort to get a job but if i didn't get one within 6 months then i too would claim employment and support allowance. Why? because jobseekers allowance is only payable for 6 months and to get assistance through my insurance i need to be a claimant. The likelyhood friends is that many of you would to.
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"we are all in this together"
All sound bite and no real bite ?
We certain are NOT all in it together. Exceptions and many examples of those not in it, never was in it and will never be in it make a mockery of such rhetorics, however well intentioned.
Examples, examples, examples.
It is necessary to mend fences and replenish stock after a robbery.
But with such colossal global losses and debt this time, countries must also recovery the losses, all of it. It is an unfair, easy option to look only to the victims and the weak for yet more sacrifices.
"At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need."
Societies brutalised and insensitised by never ending examples of hypocrisy, arrogance, gross self-congratulations and greed will fracture, slowly but surely until the day of no return, soon, very soon.
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362. At 9:20pm on 06 Oct 2009, oldsitkaspruce wrote:
There seems to be a very good chance that The Tories just do not have a clue what they are doing we hear many soundbites in a day we hear contradictory policies ..eg they are going to increase employment but at the same time cut public expenditure...my view is that each £100k of cuts costs at least 5 jobs so work it out for yourselves is that what we want
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Correct, because none of the signs coming forward from the Conservative Party Comference has done anything to address the issue of what will need to be done to avert a major Unemployment Crisis facing the U.K. with sofar no measured effort being made as to how you realistically reduce the pending rise in the pending growing Numbers of those that are and will become Unemployed.
So far all that the Tory's have said is that they are going to Cut Public Expenditure with will put up Unemployment with major cuts in Public Work's, and Jobs.
Also, by raising the State Retirement Age you will squeeze out any Work Placements for Youth and General Apprenticeships, simply because currently today there is NO demand whatsoever in the Private Sector for any large scale developments, since however much you spend your way outwards in trying to create Job's in this Sector there has to be some kind of home demand for Manufacturing including foreign demands for Exports BEFORE you know just where to invest in any Company or Industry.
Therefore, the problem with the Conservative ideas of events is that they are trying to run before they can walk, and in doing so will take measures too far in the wrong direction in, and at the beginning, just to show-off that they are doing something without any thoughts as to how any early Deep-Cuts in everything from the Retirement Age to Incapacity Benefit will impact upon the morale of the Public in General which will bring with any Cuts its own problems, such as issues from a rise in General Lawlessness to Work based Strikes returning the U.K. to the bad old Day's of the failed 18 Years of the Thatcher Years when Cameron last served in a Government, being part of the Treasury team that saw the demise of Margaret Thatcher.
While I except that there will have to be some REAL Cut's in the future, we need a more level headed and measured approach rather than the speeded-up approached version of things being favoured by Cameron, and Osbourne, for in the end of the Day there is no point trying to reach the bottom first when you don't know just where that Bottom lay's, just to find that you don't have any way out to turn things around again.
I would much prefer a slower decline under Labour, not because I would enjoy it, but moreover it is far better to do something when you have too, as opposed to simply doing something because you what too under any future Conservative Administration, and generally making things far worse for everyone in any future events for no real reasons.
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#369, derekbarker wrote:
"#356 fairlyopenmind
When Lehman Bros collapsed and that domino effect raced across nations and right into Britain, causing havoc and our banks to face their reality of over-spending. It was the Tories who advocated just to walk on by and let the recession take it's course.
While in the real world, the present government acted in double speed to mitigate the recession and save countless homes and jobs.
You see Fairly-foist, I want to live in a society that cares for all it's inhabitants, not just some who can afford to save,I want to live in a place were all children have the right to a fantastic education, not just the giving rich, I want to live in a country that shares it's wealth and doesn't allow some to live in mansions while others die in filth.I want my children to tell their children that there only fight was a fight against conservatism and every dawn is a new dawn to make life easier for all and not just some."
Wow, Derek.
Im not sure who wrote that. Doesn't seem like your normal style.
I rather think it was the US government who decided to allow Lehman's to collapse. Nothing Brown could have done about it. Obama decided that it just wasn't worth the cost for US taxpayers to support a truly rediculous organisation. Actually, I approved, because the culture of greed within Lehman's made our local idiots look pretty good.
No idea where the "real" Derek Barker lives. Whoever those multiple personalities may be. I thought I engaged with a bloke whose lads were into music and a bit of surfing. As rich/poor/privileged/impoverished people can be. Mozart was chucked into a pauper's grave, I seem to recall. So "talent" is no guarantee of financial success, I guess.
Not sure if you ever visited the USSR? People living with nothing much in the shops and dying in filth. Leaders living in mansions, with country dachas and too much booze to get through before tomorrow's ration arrived?
I like the idea that every child has access to really good education. Why not? We have spent a fortune, but far too many children have no idea how the English language works. Who do you blame? Educationalists who think that any variation at street level is "equally as important" as a structure that works? And somehow try to encourage youngsters to learn foreign languages when they have no idea how their own works?
English exams, when children don't read complete books, just bits here and there that match against exam criteria. So many children don't have a clue about the whole thrust of ideas - just bits they can use for exam purposes. Do you really think that's education?
Can't imagine a society when some people - whether through "effort" or "political connections" don't live in a better style than the majority of the population. Take 100 people. Give them the same financial income for 5 years. Some will sink. Some will swim. Some will soar. Who do you blame?
Don't like an assumption that I imagine that people struggling should be allowed to drown as you seem to imply.
In fact, I resent it deeply.
My folks struggled. Old man left school at 14. It took me 20 odd years to read all the books he decided he should get in order to "expand his horizons".
Mansions? Some people have them. In the UK, there are plenty with those. Sometimes UK citizens, many doubtful overseas incomers.
If people die in filth in the UK, which I know some do, I've never been able to point a finger at any particular government - whether at national or local level - who simply nodded and said "Oh, well. What do expect..." Do you have an example of any minister or council leader shrugging off squallor? Any chance that anybody cares whether state funded payments can be spent on drugs, booze, TVs, whatever, instead of looking after children?
OK. Wrong response. Should have said I'd like my children to pay for other children who believe that (even if underage) should be "allowed" to breed as a human right. And ask my children to pay for them and offspring as their "right".
Whoever wrote that bit of stuff is an idiot.
If governments can't control the way they spend money, it's just bad financial management. Happens under all sorts of parties' control.
Every day should be a fight against "conservatism". Tell that to the folk still struggling to emerge from the old USSR, where "conservatism" meant preserving the status quo. I.E. "Leaders have - peasants hope" mentality.
I don't like unbridled capitalism. Really, really believe that Brown made massive mistakes by changing the regulation of finance houses and failing to make sure that regulation actually worked.
It didn't. But the UK credit-bubble was totally home made. Had nothing to do with "some people in mansions while others are in squalor". Many people pointed out that credit was racing out of control. Did anybody care?
Take a peek at TOny Blair's property portfolio.
Does that fill you with hope for a rather egalitarian - equal opportunity - environment after 12 years? Would you like a little help to seize back various Blair Towers from a capitalist posing as a friend of the people?
Or prefer support to keep a Castro in power? Fathering children here and there. While his people die in squalor? Decent health system. Sends medics overseas. Created what, for his people, exactly?
I don't really care which political group "runs" the UK. Just believe that it doesn't really matter what the intention or principle may be. If you can't make stuff work in a sensible way, you just waste money. In your world, that could be money offered to a deserving poor. Maybe in mine it would be to invest in proper education, so an engtineer is valued more than a media-studies student. Harsh, ain't it?
The UK - despite itself - delivers brilliant practical people who are undervalued. Undersupported by governments. You want to seize a mansion? Fine by me. Try and work that through the Human Rights legislation. Or the "Supreme Court" that even the judges can't work out what their limitations are.
You want revolution? Check back on Citizen Smith. That's about the level of debate we have to put up with.
This stuff is so rediculous, I don't wonder that political debate is based on a totally outdated "class" structure. Only kept alive by bigots.
How do you categorise a bloke/gal from an "old" family with no resources against a guy/gal from a working class background who made a billion and bought someone else's old "family estate"?
What should we do? Tear down the mansion owned by a person from a housing estate? Introduce legislation to ensure that no family can occupy more than - what - 1500 cubic m of space?
Come on Derek.
Don't post stuff that somebody else wrote. It doesn't make sense. I make typos all the time. Irritaes me, because I was taught to write a long time ago. But at least the stuff I churn out can be honestly ascribed to me...
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fairly @ 398
just watched Ken Clarke's speech at the CC ... lots of disparaging "man of the world" asides about red tape and quangos and useless laws ... was a bit like listening to one of your things on talking book!
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tisfedup @ 390
that's a strange post - I'm worried about you - please write something first thing tomorrow so we know you're okay
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381 Fubar
Perhaps your post will be prophetic.
And what happened in Russia soon after c1915 ?
On another angle the first Firearms Acts were introduced into this country following the Russian revolution. They were introduced on grounds of public safety.
When the cabinet papers were released that was hogwash ,it was fear of armed revulution.
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395 mention-it
Never seen your handle before but if I had my way your post would be repeated every other post.
Well and correctly said .
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Considering the people contributing to this blog are likely to be above average intelligence, I am amazed at the clueless nature of so many comments.
All these announcements made of cuts are almost irrelevant compared to the changes that are needed. Do readers realise we are likely to be borrowing £175 billion this year. And then a similar amount next year?
When they talk about "halving the deficit in 4 years" they make it sound like they are halving our mountain of borrowing... but it is only halving the EXTRA amount we will still be needing to borrow each year. The total will be over a trillion soon.
Has anyone seen the government spending pie charts showing the crazy slice of interest payments that we will be paying in just a few years?
Unless you are have your head in the sand, do you really think any of the measures announced today will do more than about 1 tenth of what is needed? How crazy for all the labour lovers on this blog to make out that these are terrible cuts when so much more still needs doing.
Everyone should be urgently reviewing their finances. If you have a stable income you should be budgeting to survive on 20% less in 3 years time, assuming roughly constant salary. Why? Your income will buy 20% less in 3 years due to the falling value of the pound, increased VAT (probably at 20% in 2 years), and the quick rise in interest rates and energy costs that will start in 18 months or so.
The terrible and shocking truth is that for the first time in our lives we, the UK, are now no longer able to control our destiny.
Are you prepared in case we have to wave the white flag and surrender to adopt the Euro, in return for the bale-out to save us from bankruptcy? All of us should plan for that day, so we are not caught out.
Wake up and smell the coffee!
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#398 Fairlyopenmind
What a disaster Bush was for the world in general. The big Republican idea that raw cash is better than assets has brought the worlds economy to it's knees.
Conservatism only fuelled the idea that the general public could inflate it's real earning by 5 times. The right to buy was just a con ticket to doom.Buy a home and get as much plastic fantastic as you want.Really careless conservative values.
So the world economy is shot too pieces and the tories want the under class to pay for the upper class mistakes.Tell me this Fairy- unsure, will Cameron or Osborne suffer from pay cuts and cuts to education and health?. I'm pretty sure their kids will not even notice as they relax in their ample and fully loaded homes.
So you advocate the massive farm like lands that some own.Tell me why someone like lord Bath of longleat, should cage animals then use the general public to continue his lavish lifestyle in a massive mansion, is correct in your books .
Things have moved on a bit I suppose when people like lord Bath used too whip and under pay and abuse their employees, to a position where he now relys on the common people to float his styles.
More often than not you do refer yourself to an unbridled affiliation to the tory party. That's your choice and you dont need me to endorse your pick however this modern day conservative party is showing no sign of evolution in terms of it's education policies.I would have thought that by now they would have at least dropped their idea of private education and tried to intergrate with the mainstream of students.
The waste factor you point to quite often, (just for the books)dont you think that a family of 5 that has say 25 acres and a mansion that sleeps over 50 guest, is a bit of a waste in terms of space.
Russia is a place where many conservatives often drivel over from Profumo right through to the back bench present day conservatives.
I think you may have to look deeper into your assumption that socialism breeds greed! when so many conservative have so much individual wealth?.
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#369, derekbarker wrote:
"When Lehman Bros collapsed and that domino effect raced across nations and right into Britain, causing havoc and our banks to face their reality of over-spending"
The first domino was actually the initial economic slowdown, resulting in defaults on high loan to value mortgages given to those with poor financial security.
From there "the emperors new clothes" realisation that maybe the loans weren't as secure as had been thought and were therefore worth less, as were the collateralised debt bonds made up of such loans and used as capital to back more loans. The signals he housing market had over stretched also lead to house price falls. Meaning people lost confidence in the value (which was previously allowed to be unrealistically high) of many of their assets and those of other financial institutions - hence they questioned the strength of their balance sheets and those of others, meaning they held on to funds... therefore, credit crunch.
In the meantime, house prices already under pressure due to falling confidence, and then the squeeze on credit resulting from lack of liquidity in financial markets, and the fact properties were no longer seen as a win win investment, pushing property prices down further.
Consumption being primarily funded by credit, often via secondary borrowing to release unrealised wealth gains on property; rather than disposable income was therefore squeezed by lack of credit from 2 angles.
Thus demand fell; with a fall in demand supply needed to be reduced, leading to job losses.
I hadn't actually predicted the credit squeeze effect caused by collateralised debt being nonsensically considered risk free and the inability (or unwillingness) of banks to unbundle these and value them.
However basing wealth and consumption on property speculation was an obvious house of cards and force multiplier awaiting any downturn and it was inevitable that it would make any resultant recession deeper.
It was also inevitable that given the fact they had encouraged and fed of the asset speculation that to maintain any political capital governments would attempt to fight the market and save the property market and associated financial providers.
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It is true that if people buy the we may make a profit on nationalising some of the banks, however, there is also a fair chance, especially if the system suffers another shock, of the losses on the asset guarantee scheme vastly outweighing this.
We actually didn't get the shares in these organisations cheap, we paid well above their market value without government support, to keep the shareholders relatively sweet.
(especially after the government pushed the Lloyds takeover of HBOS, ignoring competition rules and widening the problem).
The problem for the future is when to sell the shares, and how far below the market value at the time they'll be sold for - remember, someone has to have the money to buy them.
In truth the asset guarantee scheme was a good approach, although we vastly undercharged the banks for the insurance provided; perhaps such schemes [at a realistic market price] should be compulsory in the future. making banks finance insurance of their own operations at their own cost, rather than having the state do it; the higher the risk, the higher the premiums.
With such a safety net in place, "bad banks" could be allowed to fold with any domino effect restricted, and high risk practices would be dissuaded.
Much as things have been portrayed as vastly complex and "rocket science" they're not, such claims are just a way to try to absolve regulators and politicians of the blame for something they were using to their own ends up until it went wrong.
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# 403
excellent post jonearle
but unfortunately likely to go over the heads of those who prefer to fall back on political rhetoric rather than looking at the hard cold facts.
Anyone working in the contracting market will know how horrendous the last 18 months have been.
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# 404 derekbarker
Worryingly I find myself agreeing with some of what you say, but I also see it as a diversion.
The over expanded public sector and the inequalities in wealth, (even when related to politicians) are completely separate issues.
The fact is it is unlikely that Osborne and Cameron got their wealth from the taxpayer and therefore in many ways it is irrelevant to balancing the nations books.
The question is surely: what do we want from the state and what are we prepared to pay for it?
More regulation for this that and the other inevitably leads to the need for more people or agencies to administer those regulations. And how many of these regulations do we actually want or need, how many are worthwhile? Things like the CSA were a massive failure, as are unfortunately too many creations borne of "political initiatives".
Unfortunately when analysed, very few such schemes are properly challenged, the driving force tends to be to justify whatever is seen as wanted by political masters and mandarins and if the analysis is what they want to hear, it gets signed off; regardless of the omissions.
Often this is not the fault of the staff, its due to unrealistic timetables and the pressure they're under to get the policy through. As such many infeasible ideas are seen to be assessed without ever really being challenged.
The public sector contains many excellent people (although sometimes lacking exposure to other environments and hence methodologies) and as with any organisation, quite a few hangers on.
The problem often seems to be the culture, senior managers (and in some cases hospital consultants) having empires and seeking to push their own agendas. Unfortunately this can lead to inefficient resource allocation and waste with people working at cross purposes.
In recent times the public sector has grown considerably, and as with any period of growth control is weakened, wouldn't it be better to raise standards by keeping the best people and getting rid of some of those who don't contribute? Why should others cover for them and risk the entire department being considered inefficient? Yet in such heavily unionised environments, telling the truth and saying someone is useless is considered to be wrong and people often still can't be fired when they commit what in other environments would be considered gross misconduct (isn't "gardening leave" wonderful?). Public sector managers often get (and deserve) a lot of stick, but when you can't criticise someone for not doing their job without being accused of "victimisation", it can be a challenging environment to manage in.
In many ways its a shame, the talented people who genuinely care in the public sector are not given the credit they often deserve due to;
- structures that limit their ability to contribute
- bureaucracy and irrelevant targets diverting them from their key skills
- a defensive culture where ideas and innovation aren't nurtured
- politicians constantly moving the goal posts
- the dead weight they often have to carry
- unions defending the work shy and hamstringing management
Those who care and truly contribute deserve our support, those who don't... why are we paying for them?
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Ridiculous Nick.
Pensioners have just had their action to not be forcibly retired at 65 refused by the High Court — a decision met with much outrage from Age Concern and those who wanted to continue in their jobs, but you and the Unions are working up a froth about those who at present are relatively young people having to work an extra year to build up their entitlement. I certainly don't mind working an extra year if it means my state pension will be an earnings-related one… why hasn't anyone done this before?
In addition, are the government admitting that the hundreds of billions poured into the NHS has been totally wasted, as it hasn't improved life-expectancy or general health beyond 65? Again, what rubbish.
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#407 Reaper_of_Souls
You have made some damn good and compelling observations across a number of your posts.
For that I congratulate you.
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#408 Reaper-of-souls
Whey Hey guaranteed personality!.So you think you can tell, good government from bad government and good ministers as well?
If I threw you a lump of cheese, you would probably put it on a burger and eat it however if I threw you a lump of steel or wood, you would probably put it in the bin.
You can conjure up all the hype you like but your engineering ability to create and make is almost numb.
So tell Reaper-man,how exactly do think your DNA differs from others in as much as you like too pass judgement on others with phrasing like "HANGERS ON" who are the hangers on and what are they hanging onto?.
Do you believe that those who dont make a contribution are not worthy of help, even if they received their illness due to an industrial accident, say like a policeman that was shot while trying to protect a member of the public?.
Well Reaper, you think you can tell/Hmmmmm! I doubt you have the fo