Young at heart of shadow cabinet
David Cameron is to appoint Sir George Young, the veteran former Tory minister and candidate for Speaker, to join the shadow cabinet to replace Alan Duncan, who he demoted yesterday.
Mr Duncan lost his job as shadow leader of the Commons after being caught on camera complaining that MPs were expected to live "on rations". Sir George is a respected figure with MPs on all sides. If David Cameron becomes prime minister, he will have to deliver reform not just of the expenses system but of the Commons more widely. He and his leader have spoken of the need to give MPs more power to stand up to the government.
The subject of a speech the Tory leader's giving later today may explain why Alan Duncan was moved yesterday, and not earlier. David Cameron will promise to "cut the cost of politics" - he confirmed recently that he was looking at proposals to cut ministers' pay. It is likely that he thought that Alan Duncan's presence in his top team would rather distract from that message.
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Sir George Young? ... hang on, hasn't he got a moat?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I'm not sure that the salary paid to MPs & Cabinet Ministers is an issue but surely the number of them is.
The US gets by on 435 members in the House of representitives and 100 in the senate. This in a country with a population of over 300,000,000. Why do we need 648 MPs and 740 (yes 740!!!) members of the House of Lords in a country 1/5 the size?
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"3. At 09:06am on 08 Sep 2009, AndyC555 wrote:
I'm not sure that the salary paid to MPs & Cabinet Ministers is an issue but surely the number of them is.
The US gets by on 435 members in the House of representitives and 100 in the senate. This in a country with a population of over 300,000,000. Why do we need 648 MPs and 740 (yes 740!!!) members of the House of Lords in a country 1/5 the size?"
Not to memtion the MEP's, Members of regional assemblies, county councils, town councils and parish councils... Then these members of NHS trust commitiees, school goveners.
For any given problem I might have any one of 5 or 6 elected people a one non elected member of the house of lords that I can go and talk to.
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I quite agree with cutting the cost of politics but I am not convinced cutting ministers pay is the answer. The abuse of ministerial pay by the likes of McNaughty and Smith has detracted from the argument that a Government Minister should be paid a rate commensurate with the responsibility they hold.
I would say the answer lies more with reducing the number of MPs - 59 sounds like a good number to start with and could be achieved at a stroke.
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I'll be intrigued to hear what Cam thinks is going to be his way of cutting the cost of politics. Very interested, especially if it has any substance and is going to be an election pledge.
All the current incumbents have done is shuffled the deck chairs on the Titanic.
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Sir George he is that chappy with the rather nice garden isn't he? Well perhaps we will see a neatly trimmed opposition party like his well trimmed lawn? At least bringing back some form of honesty and integrity in his wake?In my opinion a little slice of the expenses claims for moat clearance so what? Others were digging a little deeper with their snouts,and have all got a conscience to live with
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Nick,
I will be very interested in the amount of publicity given to the speech today by David Cameron. Today the media is consumed with the result of the trial which has just been concluded. I think that the problem has been and always will be, not Afghanistan, not Pakistan, but the answer lies with what has been taught over the last couple of decades in Saudi Arabia. I have worked in that country, and find it the most appalling place of all the countries, and cities where I have worked. I do not feel that I have to actually give evidence because it was not a problem of the individuals with whome I worked, it was the overall society. Mainly the hypocracy in respect of the treatment of women. Is it not the same with our politicians? As individuals they are not a problem, it is something about them in their 'society' which has caused the detachment between them and the electorate.
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#1
You seem to have an issue with succesful people. So what if he has a moat? Have you never considered that the country might be better run by people who have already proven themselves in the 'real' world rather than those who have achieved little more than running for president of their student union followed by a few years of carrying an MPs briefcase?
And if having a moat is a bar to office, what of mock Tudor beams, claiming your sister's bedroom is your main residence, 17 silk scatter cushions, non-existent mortgages and so on.
Personally I don't care what an MP does so long as the country is run well, something that hasn't been happening in the UK for the last 12 years.
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Nick:
David Cameron is to appoint Sir George Young,
Congrats and my best wishes to Sir George Young on his promotion to a shadow (position)...
=D=
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And the dead shall rise again...
to come to the aid of the party
of comedians!!!!
A vacuous party full of well dressed but totally inexperienced people who just don't understand how to run a whelk store and cannot be trusted to be out alone - one might think!
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The best way of enabling MP's to stand up to the government is to have a house of commons that constituted as a fair and balanced representation of the will of the people. Our current unrepresentative system gives essentially unchallengable authority to the largest minority even though, as now for example, 64% of those that voted wanted something else.
For example could Tony Bliar have blustered and bullied through his decision to go into Iraq if say he had to have four or five Lib Dems in his cabinet based on electoral mandate? I think not and democracy and the country would have been much better served
Does David Cameron support fair and balanced representation of the will of the people? Certainly not according to his recent ponouncements on the subject. Power is what he wants and he certainly wont let a little thing like the majority of the electorate not supporting his policies stop him.
An institutionally rigged electoral system is the root cause of many of our issues with how politicians and parliament behave. Until we change it don't expect politicians to respect the will of the people or governement to worry about what MP's think. Without electoral reform we will just edge even further along the road of government versus the people rather than governance on behalf of the people that we have seen this last two or three decades.
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Is this Cameroon shoring up his shadow cabinet with the strength of experience that will be necessary to overcome the forthcoming dirty battle often portrayed as a general election?
Is it true Nick, that Nadine is personally delivering court papers to No10 today? Do you know as to whom they are addressed?
Will that become an issue for the election or is it currently sub judice so the BBC can't comment?
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I rather like the idea of limiting Council chief's salaries. There seems to be a negative correlation between CE salaries - increasingly moving into the territory of £200K+ - and the standard of local services. In Hertfordshire the CE has long since joined this club but the County cant seem to find even the funding for making road signs visible.
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Cutting the cost of politics, sure we do not need more than 100 mp's and 100 in the Lords and they should be paid the "average wage"of the area they represent which would be a real incentive for them to boost the lot of their constituents... but the way to save real money is to get rid of the ridiculously bloated civil service and useless quangos... there are more people employed in the MOD than in the army and airforce combined...!
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Good morning each & Nick.
Dave's wages may be but a minor inconvenience to his larger financial affairs.
His old pals would still have a place in the ever increasing number of Quangos. That is where the real money is to be made.
It is my view that the electorate will determine where savings will be made in the employment of him and his team.
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Reducing the cost of politics should in principle not be difficult. Just look at the Public Accounts Committee website and see the dozens of projects that have been allowed to run billions over budget, the number of them that deliver nothing useable or things "delivered" that fail key performance requirements. Years of late delivery, which has its own hidden costs- such as underequipped soldiers- is routine.
If business's ran themselves as Whitehall does they would all be bankrupt as their clients would have long ago gone elsewhere.
Until there is real accountability for delivery you cannot expect radical change. Just refuse to let projects go over budget and make every civil servant on the team jointly resposible for on time, on cost delivery which meets performance specifications. If not they should be out, just like anyone else in Britain would be.
Cut the hundreds of billions of clearly identified waste and overbudget expenditure, deal robustly with underperformance in Whitehall and there is every prospect of running governance much cheaper than now without any meaningful cuts to what is delivered. You never know we may actually get what we pay for!
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Is anyone really going to believe that ANY politician will actually introduce measures to curtail their power AND reduce their salaries ? At the risk of offending anyone with religious sensibilities, I've just seen a pig flying over the House of Commons. Caledonian Comment
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#1 sagamix
Was it not Douglas Hogg with the moat? No doubt at all though, Sir George probably had a good go at claiming other fripperies.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#1 I think that was Douglas Hogg.
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#9 Andyc555
'In total, the Old Etonian chairman of the standards and privileges committee claimed £127,159 between 2001 and 2008 for his flat in Victoria, within walking distance of the House of Commons.
By far his biggest outgoing was the interest repayments on the flat he bought for £397,000 in 2005, which averaged more than £1,400 a month.
Sir George, 67, MP for North West Hampshire, also claims the full rate of council tax on the band G property, which amounted to £1,146 in 2008-09, even though he would be eligible for a discount because it is his second home.
He has also claimed for electrical items including a £699 washer-dryer (reduced to £500 by the fees office) and a £449 dishwasher (reduced to £375), as well as modest food claims of £5 a week.
The former Cabinet minister is not the only member of his family to benefit from his taxpayer-funded expenses; he employs his daughter Camilla as his office manager. Although her salary is not declared, Sir George paid his staff a total of £83,682 last year.'
Telegraph 22 May 2009.
Nice work if you can get it!
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I'm very much for cutting the number of MPs - provided it is done so that the constituencies are evened up in terms of population. That would mean the end of a whole lot of latter-day "rotten boroughs" (mostly de-populated inner-city seats). Perhaps someone could explain why Mr Moral Compass hasn't set out to do this already?
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"respected"? What does it REALLY mean these days?
"cut the cost of politics"? Don't cut minister's pay. cut the number of MPs. 646 MPs is too many. Maybe 300 MPs and a 50% salary increase?
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BBC should bring back James Hacker to prime time television.
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Reducing MP salaries isn't the answer. Reducing the number of MP's and reducing what they can claim for is. Better also to reduce salaries of top people in local councils also so they are more in line with the salaries lower down. I'm sure there are many people like me who finds the number of MP's, Lords etc positively ridiculous! I am aghast at so many politicians. No wonder noone can ever agree and get any decent work done. I have thought being an MP is a priviledge and being a representative of the people should be a humbling experience.
It seems to me that parliament is like banks-they've lost sight of their reason for being-serving the people, not the other way around. It's hard to have faith in any MP that professes to understand the plight of the people they represent when they have never experienced the 'normal' world. How many MP's have been made redundant and lost their homes? Almost a Marie Antoinette attitude.
Government for the people by the people? No idea who said it but personally I don't think there is a single MP who can honestly say they genuinely represent the people of their constituency. Granted there may be some who wish to follow the ideal, but don't they get 'whipped' to toe the party line?
Sorry Mr Cameron, but I have no interest in your in-party tinkering, nor your words about salaries and expenses. I'd like to hear you speak about a total reform of the political system, and give MP's the freedom of speech they should have in order to rebuild a parliament and government our great nation can be proud of once again. Maybe a system like America has would be a good one?
The people of this country are so disillusioned with the whole political machine that a seismic shift is the only way to regain the country's confidence. We need a parliament we can believe in.
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polero (@ 19) and lotus (@ 21)
Was it not Douglas Hogg with the moat?
ah yes, apologies - easy to get these guys confused, isn't it? - still, my mistake and I retract ... the curse of the rushed number one post strikes again!
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"Ilicipolero wrote:
#1 sagamix
Was it not Douglas Hogg with the moat? No doubt at all though, Sir George probably had a good go at claiming other fripperies."
In Saga's world ALL Tories have moats, and all Labour MPs are working class and walk to Westminster daily because they don't want to claim expenses.
Saga's world is black and white, all Tories are evil and steal the souls of children and murder old people in their beds for their pensions while Labour MPs are so pure of heart that even angels look up at them in awe and wonder.
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So there you have it. Cameron replaces someone who does like living on rations with someone who doen't need to. Saga points out that Younger is the guy with the moat. Let's hope the drawbridge works as well. He may need it.
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will he have significantly more say and influence over the reform speculated about during the speaker election than he would have done as speaker?
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This thread is fascinating as it shows that the expenses issue is just not going to go away. I reckon it could easily be the biggest issue in the next election after the complete incompetence of the government in doing anything.
The moral to the tale is that government is too big, too poorly focussed, expensive, incompetent and leaching. The taxpayer pays far too much tax as a consequence.
Given that government is now GBP200 billion in the red for this year alone the demand for wholesale change has to get even more deafening otherwise we all be living in duck-houses on rations
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@andyc555 #9
Well put, yes you have identified the politics of envy that these morons want to inflict upon the rest of us. Does he want a kind of reverse discrimination on the grounds of property ownership? To replace it with a compulsory spell in some student union, marxist group membership,shop stewardship, (or even ship steward), only to become the greediest snouts in the trough. Heaven help us if these idiots get another term. Lies lies and yet more lies from Labour keep pouring out.
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"jrperry wrote:
I'm very much for cutting the number of MPs - provided it is done so that the constituencies are evened up in terms of population. That would mean the end of a whole lot of latter-day "rotten boroughs" (mostly de-populated inner-city seats). Perhaps someone could explain why Mr Moral Compass hasn't set out to do this already?"
Any changes to the boundaries would benefit the other parties at the expense of Labour so we all know what any MP with a moral compass would do
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#22
Two issues, firtsly can we not agree that the expense is hardly a party political matter as all sides were to a greater or lesser extent involved?
Secondly, again, so what? I'd rather have a dodgy MP who was competent that a monbk who was incapapble of governing.
If there is any difference in MPs wnating to get rich, I'd say it was that Tories are less hypocritical about it. There's little more odious that a 'working class hero' like Prescott wallowing in a trough he wants to take away from many and deny to the rest.
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29 threnodio
Wrong, twice. As sagamix concedes, it was Hogg, who had the moat. And it's Young, not Younger (Younger, from the brewing family, was someone else).
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Sagamix what do you say about Shaun Woodward who has a £5M villa on Mustique. Oh yes he was a Tory and now a Labour Cabinet Minister. Shaun also apparently sold his 500 acre Oxfordshire Estate in 2006 for £24M. He has homes in France and Long Island as well, I wonder if any of his houses have a moat? I wonder what his carbon footprint is? (Then again global warming is a myth designed to tax us all!!)
The politics of envy have been going on for a number of years and have been used by this Government to keep it in power. Notwithstanding the smear campaigns. Just get over it its the politics of the gutter.
GB Call an election.
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As a point of principle getting MP'S pay and conditions right is important, whichever way you think it should go.
However as a matter of controlling the overall financial cost of government the difference either way will be a very small symbolic gesture.
An example. The current £10 billion overbudget expenditure and years late delivery of the NHS IT project( ie we still haven't got it and may never get the benefits of what we are already overpaying for)is £9.99 Billions bigger than the cost of giving every MP an extra £15,000 a year!
By all means complain about MP'S salaries but if you seriously want to cut the cost of government then you have to cut out the hundreds of billions that this administration has spent in overbudget payments on projects for which little of value has been delivered.
Yes folks Billions of our money used to get absolutely nothing in return!
Cut those projects, and those responsible for running them and you save billions with no effect on what is delivered! Most of them haven't delivered anything anyway and the rest are often far short of key performance criteria that they aren't worth having.
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I'm all for this idea of placing the chain saw to replace far two many mps currently in the house of commons, Shall we have a go at the house of lords at the same time? Its time to cut the chaff from the wheat, There are far two many ex has beens in the house of lords ,And far two many in Parliament so its time two rid our selves of the quangos appointed by new labor as extras etc, It as though you have Representatives for every street corner in the UK.And the same goes for public servants how many do you really need?When i switch on my tele two the house of commons there either crammed full and half asleep Or fully awake yet IN a zombie type state, so get the chain saw out and start trimming.Once you have made good with a sensible amount they will all have a proper seat instead of standing in the isles.Now we've got this far perhaps we might consider payment to your newly commissioned employees
for better payments for the work they have under taken on your behalf with out the need to make extortionate demands in their expenses claims
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Sir George Young (Not Younger - getting the guys name wrong rather stuffs up a rant!) will set the right tone as Leader of The House after the Election - unless he gets elected as Speaker (as he should have been earlier this Year) when Bercow gets dumped out of his constiuency by UKIP!!
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Mp's given the power to stand up to the government!?
You'll be telling me that all MP's are democratically accountable next and that the PM will be making policy by consensus.
What larks!
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AndyC555
You're right! The expenses scandal isn't a party political matter. They were ALL filling their boots! As for preferring a dodgy but competent MP, well, good luck to you but we appear to have ended up with dodgy AND incompetent MPs. And finally, you're probably right about the Tories being less hypocritical in the rabid pursuit of wealth and power which is British politics... but that still means they're hypocrites!
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Cameron has just announced cuts, cut number of MPs by 10%, cut government cars, cut food and drink subsidy in Westminster, all quangos to justify their existence, 5% ministerial salary cut, MPs salaries frozen,end of £10,000 communication allowance...... only £120 million saving at this stage, but as Cameron pointed out, it is more about showing leadership and setting an example than the actual amount. Lets now wait for the labour rebuttal unit to start spinning against this...
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27 sagamix
polero (@ 19) and lotus (@ 21)
Was it not Douglas Hogg with the moat?
ah yes, apologies - easy to get these guys confused, isn't it? - still, my mistake and I retract ... the curse of the rushed number one post strikes again!
========================================================
No apology required, most of us just assumed it was just the usual standard of factual accuracy which features in your posts.
I enjoyed your post on the other blog, but I must point out that I would only prefer HH as PM in preference to GB until a GE when I would vote for DC. Hope that clarifies things !
I'm glad Alan Duncan has been replaced, after his ill advised appearance on Have I got News for You, it was difficult to take him seriously.
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Shuffling the players around si what party leaders do all the time. Not really a story.
Both Opposition and Government are talking today about the need to reduce state spend on service departments in order to pay down the massive debt the government has ramped up.
Essentially a statement of the bleedin' obvious.
Shame that the PM couldn't have been a bit more honest right from the start (I'd have called it "normal") and not tried to pretend that his mob would spend, while only nasty opposition parties would slash and burn...
Hold on to your hats, folks. It's going to be a bumpy ride!
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42
No problem with an initial cut in their salaries, as he says with people losing their jobs and getting pay cuts out in the real world, why should our representatives be exempt? Did you catch how long the freeze was for though? Not sure I agree with that, the salaries should catch up once we are substantially out of crisis.
Cut number of MP's by 10%? Shouldn't that number be nearer 50?
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#9 and that proves the flaws in the ZANU-labour policy of having selection by targets to get the "right" mix as they see it. Its just a cover for getting the "right" people in there eye into power thus actually reducing the democratic process within there own part. its simple maths
if you have 10 good people males and 10 bad people females then you have to have 5 good males and 5 bad females rather than 10 good people. change males female etc for any other type of grouping and then add in some tokenism
and then you can see why this country has become such a mess.
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42#
OK... its a start. Is it an election pledge?
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#42 think we should actually have more MP but with much lower expense to allow people to be involved in democracy.
but get rid of all those quango's etc
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Post script Every man woman and tax payer in general have a right two demand of their mps a fair days work for a fair days pay like every tom dick and harry in the street,This blank checkbook approach on expenses is to be scraped and a fair wage payable i see Mr Cameron is attempting two tackle the problem as we speak ,Accommodation has to be found at affordable rates not bank rolled by the tax payer if you want two waste the public funds do so in providing accommodation for commuters from far off not on Olympic stadiums to cater for the whims of a few.
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Welcome back Mr. Robinson. The Tories or rather Mr. Cameron is going to be in a very precarious situation to try and persuade us that he is cleaner then others. His present choice is naive to say the least and when will he stop pushing his own people off the ship when they misbehave? Did he not try to convince us that Mr. Duncan had done nothing wrong? What made him change his mind? Is this what a new (sic) Tory Government going to be like? Summersaults everlasting?
He now says he wants to rid all the perks for MPs etc. Mmmeeeh, why does he not start with him paying back all the money from our taxes which is subsidising the interest on a 350,000 Sterling loan, when he purchased his mansion? We are talking about a multimillionaire, and that's excluding his wife.
Why not rule by example for once? Until that happens, Mr. Cameron is going to have a very steep hill climb and persuade ex Tories to vote for him! So for now, it is still the devils we know then the devils we don’t!
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The thing is that the conservative front bench is desparately in need of another Old Etonian. They're running low cf www.boho.com
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Well done on the BBC for picking the most trivial of Cameron's proposals and using that as the headline - "Cameron would axe MPs' cheap food".
It cleverly avoids leading with all that political stuff like cutting the number of MPs, reducing the salary of Ministers or freezing salaries for the whole of the next Parliament.
In a brilliant move it implies that Cameron only cares about the trivial stuff and isn't going to make the big changes that need to be made.
I bet the headline writer will get a pat on the head from Peter for that one!
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Post 25. I agree wholeheartedly though I doubt the BBC would have the bottle to show them all leading up to an election.
I have it on DVD and some of them are very very relevant even thoguh they are 25 years old.
For those interested I would recommend the books of the scripts for both Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister you miss so much of the nuance on the screen as the prose flows so quickly on screen.
They are available in dvd or on cd for the radio version at hmv and I imagine other reputable outlets
http://hmv.com/hmvweb/simpleSearch.do?searchUID=&pGroupID=-1&adultFlag=false&primaryID=-1&simpleSearchString=yes+minister
Waterstones has the books and even the programmes on video for those still in the 1980's televisually.
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For trying to save money, why don't we just get rid of the house of lords? It doesn't appear to have any particular purpose, apart from keeping retired politicians occupied and and as a way for big companies to get policies they don't like amended. Don't know how much it costs, but whatever it is, it's too much.
As for cutting the MPs... shortly after the Torys get into power, Scotland'll be independant, so that'll solve that anyway.
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That's OK, he's a good chap. Mild mannered, loyal and true blue.
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50
Interesting blend of ignorance, illiteracy, and illogicality.
Another one envious of the rich and succesfuly methinks, unfortunately unable to put it properly into writing. Anyone else seriously believe that MPs who are better off should have to pay the expenses incurred for being an MP out of their own pocket?
If you are an ex Tory I am Gordon Brown's greatest fan. A quick glance through your posts reveals the bile filled rants against the well off, an evil you clearly believe that was inflicted on society by the Tories. You many prefer "the devil you know", but it is a mighty sad state of affairs when you admit that the current government is "the devil", but can not overcome your envy enough to do something good for the country.
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13-Personally I don't care what an MP does so long as the country is run well, something that hasn't been happening in the UK for the last 12 years.
12 years? Try 30!
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#35 - jrperry
Hey, wait a minute! OK, I fell for Saga's mistaken moat ID but where the hell did I type Younger instead of Young?
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51#
Well, that post was worth waiting for. Coruscating political insight, I must say. Where would we be without you?
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Andy @ 9
You seem to have an issue with successful people
oh really? ... pls see below:
... "Young was born in 1941, the first son of Sir George Peregrine !! "Gerry" Young, 5th Baronet, and Elizabeth Knatchbull-Hugessen. His father was a diplomat who met Elizabeth in while serving in Peking (where her father, Sir Hughe Knatchbull-Hugesse, was the British Ambassador). They married in 1939. On the death of his father in 1960, George inherited the Baronetcy (that's nice) which had been created in 1813 when Sir Samuel Young's services as an Admiral in the Royal Navy were recognised." ...
... he's gone backwards!
sorry, can't take these guys seriously
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Sir George Young would be a good Leader of the Commons, but this should not be a government appointment. The Leader should be elected by the members of the Commons. The purpose of parliament is not to govern, but to check government. It should be the same with the select committee Chairmen.They should not be apointed by the government either. Government does too much. Parliament does too little. This is an inbalance in the constitution and the source of a lot of problems.
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"Onlywayup wrote:
So for now, it is still the devils we know then the devils we don’t!"
I heard a joke as a child which I always think of when I hear that expression.
A criminal is arrested and put in prison. He is locked in a dark and wet cell and every hour on the hour the cell door opens and he is kicked in the groin by the guard. After ten years he is given the chance to move to a different cell with a different guard which he refuses. The next time the guard comes he asks the prisoner why he didn't want to move cells and the prisoner shrugs and replies "Better the devil you know..."
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60
He's gone backwards? As have you I'm afraid.
Mocking someone for having a posh sounding name? How low can you stoop? Recalling with vivid clarity the incident when you were convinced having the name Gideon was sufficient reason to expel someone from the commons.
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bloggins @ 51
The thing is that the Conservative front bench is desperately in need of another Old Etonian
yes, and Duncan wasn't one (was he? ... don't want to get things wrong again!) so they've upped the ratio - hey they haven't got a quota they're trying to fill, have they? - thought when we discussed all that a few days ago, we all ended up agreeing we were AGAINST quotas?
... or is that only for "bad" stuff like getting state school kids into the top Unis?
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#1 sagamix
#19 is a contribution by Ilicipolero - me!
The post appears on my screen as "You" it never used to - can anyone say whether the format of the blog has changed? Ta
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I believe bringing in Sir George is a potential masterstroke by David Cameron. Alan Duncan has always been a bit of a loose cannon and prone to gaffes. I doubt we will see Sir George on Have I Got News For you or making unguarded comments to bloggers with an agenda.
This way Alan Duncan is sidelined painlessly and Cameron even scores some brownie points with the general public to boot.
I am sure this is merely one of many steps made to ensure that the Conservatives don't throw away their position in the polls and win the next election.
As per reducing MP's and various other things agreed it is only a small amount of the total cuts but the principal is established with sharing of the pain starting at the top and including the Westminster crowd.
Perhaps widen it to include a 2 year pay freeze for everyone paid by the
public purse who earns over GBP 100,000 a year.
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Tory cuts strikes agsin. It's a step in the right direction but more is needed to cut the costs. We do not need 600+ MP's and we definatly do not need 700+ Lords or peers and the do not nned to claim for the amount they do. They are supposed to reprisent us, how can they do that if they live in an entirely different planet.
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11. At 09:44am on 08 Sep 2009, John_from_Hendon wrote:
A vacuous party full of well dressed but totally inexperienced people who just don't understand how to run a whelk store and cannot be trusted to be out alone - one might think!
=
Which party are you referring to?.. could apply to any of the 3 main parties.
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#28 Mark_WE
It's a myth that only Conservative Members of Parliament are wealthy with vast houses and milked a flawed system to finance their country piles. It's obscene what the elctorate have had to part finance with their increasing tax burden. It could be thousands to maintain a stately home or a few pounds on pornographic films while the missus is elsewhere, either way the system is plain wrong.
The politician who achieves value for money for the people who sent them all to Westminster will get himself voted in again and again. Right now that seems like Cameron. Candid words earlier today in his first speech after the over generous summer recess.
Interesting words from John_from_Hendon at #11
With luck Gordon Browns whelk stall is about to be closed for good and replaced by something people find considerably more useful.
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@65
"The post appears on my screen as "You" it never used to - can anyone say whether the format of the blog has changed?
It has been updated. You can now use £ signs and other symbols without having to do this £ with charmap or change the text encoding to view them. The 'YOU' thing is only seen by you so it should be OK as long as you remember who you are. Although some people might have trouble with it.
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64
You are aware that they do not actually have a quota for old etonians on their front bench aren't you?
I feel it is important to check, because your illogical little rant is based solely on the founding stone that there is just such a quota.
And any quota is wrong. Even if it is something like getting state school kids into top universities. The Universities in question should be able to choose the best candidates. If there is a year when the state school candidates are stronger, then there should be an abundance of them admitted, if there is one when they are weaker, there should be fewer. Its fairly straightforward and logical, no? Picking to fill quotas is just about as illogical and unfair a method as I can conceive (how would you feel if it were to be turned around, and there was a minimum quota from public schools)? Would it not be far more reasonable to ensure that Universities are not deliberately favouring one or the other, perhaps by ensuring that those charged with selection are not aware of the schooling background of the candidates?
Of course, I am not accounting for your hatred of those who dared to attend public schools. They should of course be immediately disadvantaged as far as possible for having the timerity to have well off parents prepared to pay to see them well educated.
The figures of admittance to top universities (Oxford, Cambridge, Bristol, York for example) I think would surprise you. Maybe you should check them before lecturing on your "good" quotas.
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#69 I thought it was a cockle up stall he was orchestrating?
might be wrong though
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threnodio 58
You said: "where the hell did I type Younger instead of Young?"
In your post 29, which is the one I was referring to in my 35. Of course.
George Young and George Younger were separate people, but they were both in the Thatcher and Major cabinets, at the same time I think. To avoid your further confusion, Young is the man we are talking about today. Younger, who was a fine minister in his day, unfortunately is no longer with us.
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63 Haymaker
Come on - mocking people for having silly names is surely allowed - it's the basis of many a children's fairy tale - Rumpelstiltskin for a start and Monty Python - Mr Smoketoomuch - don't get me started...
I'm pleased Cameron wants to put up the price of Fosters lager in the Commons bar - might encourage them to drink some decent ale. And let's all welcome a Tory policy at last - gets my vote.
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64. sagamix wrote:
bloggins @ 51
The thing is that the Conservative front bench is desperately in need of another Old Etonian
yes, and Duncan wasn't one (was he? ... don't want to get things wrong again!) so they've upped the ratio - hey they haven't got a quota they're trying to fill, have they? - thought when we discussed all that a few days ago, we all ended up agreeing we were AGAINST quotas?
=
Does the government front bench have a quota for lapsed socialists?
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Gomes Haye-Markentropp @ 63
mocking someone for having a posh sounding name ... how low can you stoop?
yes, sorry, not good ... feel bad now! - but look, you goaded me into it by saying I've got something against "successful" people - I haven't - my egalitarianism springs, as much as anything, from compassion for the privileged classes - would be so much better for everyone if we did away with this head start for the select few - thing is, at present, with all the Baronetcy and Old Etonian nonsense, we can't properly respect the achievements of these (sometimes quite talented) toffee apples ... and that's a shame because, for all we know, they could have made it anyway ... you know, without cheating
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60#
Saga, behave yourself, otherwise I'll wheel out Hattie's wiki entry as well. She's just as vacuous and just as much a poshgirl.
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#60
For someone saying they don't have an issue with successful people you seem to go to extraordinary lengths to research their background and make sniping comments about them.
Why not try emulating them rather than denigrating them?
At a time when only citizens could vote in Athens, a non-citizen said to one of its leaders (Pericles, I think) "You could not have got where you are if you had not been an Athenian citizen", to which Pericles replied "that may be so but could you have got to where I have got to if you HAD been an Athenian citizen?"
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Hey, Laugh, long time no see!
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Nick's back and so are all the Labour 'supporters'.
Coincidence?
Or are they the only ones that can afford holidays?
Welcome back anyway, the blog was very one-sided without you.
Saga can only do so much.
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#70 dhwilkinson
Thank you. I figured it out shortly after I posted. Not contributed much for a few weeks, some will say I've never contributed much.
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Using pro-rata numbers and comparing us to the USA, we only need 87 MPs and 20 people in the House of Lords.
And let's be honest have even as many as 87 MPs actually had an impact on the last 12 years? What Blair and then Brown have wanted has been waved through by their majorities with the vast number of MPs having made not a tiny difference to the Government of the country.
If anyone opposes my plan, could they come up with a list. "Seemingly useless MPs and why we should keep them"? To keep the status quo there would need to be over 550 MPs on the list.
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Sir George Young and David Cameron may well have spoken of the need to give MPs more power to stand up to the government.
However, as these two represent a party, along with Labour and the Lib-Dems who are totally mired in the expenses scandal, then the electorate might more sensibly place their trust in 'none of the above' i.e. the three mainstream parties, at the next General Election.
That way, the people will guarantee themselves a clean start over with a fresh bunch of politicians untainted by what has happened during the current and previous Parliaments.
A wholesale clearout really is the minimum requirement.
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76. At 3:24pm on 08 Sep 2009, sagamix wrote:
Gomes Haye-Markentropp @ 63
mocking someone for having a posh sounding name ... how low can you stoop?
yes, sorry, not good ... feel bad now! - but look, you goaded me into it by saying I've got something against "successful" people
--------------
I see, and you thought that mocking a posh name was the ideal way to prove us wrong.
Got it.
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Ah another Old Etonian here to deliver the age of austerity with an Animal Farm kinda vibe. When will the front bench all come to work wearing the full Bullingdon Club garb...probably after the election, just to rub it in.
As a famous singer once said "feigning concern a conservative pastime, makes you feel doubtful right from the start. The expression they pull is exactly like last time, got to conclude they just havent a heart."
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#74 I don't care if they drink last of the summer wine .At least it getting a little closer to the day or reckoning How many days is it {rvpisneverinjureds}you usely keep the score I can just see a glint at the end of a very long tunnel and the blue thats emerging is absolutely stunning So put your hands together good people and rejoice its a new tomorrow .zuloo dawn
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jrp @ 73
George Young and George Younger were separate people
okay thank you, alles klar - so Young is the Baronet of whom we speak today (current Tory cabinet) and Younger was the Brewing Magnate (previous Tory Cabinet) - right!
... but what about Young's (as opposed to Younger's) Ale, which Tory makes that, if not the Sir George or the Ex George? - or is that more of a progressive enlightened sort of a brew?
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86.quietoldinthetooth
I didn't understand any of that
could you explain this post for the les metaphorically minded of us?
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85#
Oh god, here we go again...
Time to go home....
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#83
Would a 'wholesale clearout' even be possible? The main parties have got such a stranglehold on democracy in Britain that I doubt they'd allow it. Imagine if the vast majority of voters here spoiled or withheld their votes (Which they won't do because of 'tribal' politics! Vote Blue! Vote Red! They're monkeys and donkeys but who cares! Baa baa!) The main parties would still claim a mandate with only a dozen votes cast! The leeches.
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An excellent move by Cameron and an excellent choice. Sir George is a man who understands the workings of parliament through and through and really knows what has gone so badly wrong over the last few years.
Cameron wants to start by making parliament more efficient by cutting costs.
Those who pooh pooh the idea as small beer are just plain lazy.
Those who have had to seek advice at the Citizens Advice Bureau know it is not.
Cutting debt has to be done before you run out of money and are still solvent.
It is hard work and involves scrutinising every bit of expenditure to see where there are excesses that can be cut.
Darling and Brown are too lazy to do this and would rather keep borrowing because it's easier in the short term. The excuse is you can't cut in a recession. Everyone knows this is a complete fallacy.
If they don't and are forced into cuts in desperation later then large swathes of the public services could be put at risk that would not have been necessary if more time had been spent going through them with a fine tooth comb now.
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sagamix... at least old Etonians have received a decent education, a good qualification for a Minister i think.....
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I see that David Cameron will promise to "cut the cost of politics" - he confirmed recently that he was looking at proposals to cut ministers' pay.
Yes, that is so easy to mandate when you and your priviledged chums are sitting on very tidy nest-eggs, isn't it.
What are these poor minsters going to live on - rations?
Oops, we've already been there.
Meanwhile, back in shadowland, the shadow people wait patently for buggins turn and if they did turn up post-election in full Bullingdon gear (if only metaphorically), as one poster has suggested, then the electorate will only have themselves to blame.
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This is a great game, here are some moew names you wouldn't let you children have by a full calender month,
Lynton
Whitaker
Wedgwood
Hilary
Wright
Rodway
Yaw
Creswell
Can you guess who these belong to?
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sagamix 87
I think you are becoming obsessed with names today. As if one's name defined the whole of one's personality and capabilities. Perhaps a surprising line for a supposed egalitarian like yourself to take? Yours is a very poor standard of debate, really. Only just above twopointslost at 85, in fact. You can always tell when Labour has lost the argument, because that's when the infantile smearing starts, as we have seen already, of course.
On your specific question, I think Young's ale is brewed by another Young family. It's quite a popular name, you know.
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"JohnConstable wrote:
Yes, that is so easy to mandate when you and your priviledged chums are sitting on very tidy nest-eggs, isn't it.
What are these poor minsters going to live on - rations?"
Just in case you didn't understand Ministers get a wage on top of their MP wage (in other words they get their MPs wage and extra money for being a Minister). So if someone can afford to live as an MP (and I think most people could!) then you can afford to live as a Minister.
It is possible that you were just trying to be funny but it can be hard to tell!
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#88General i will do my best to translate.Mr Cameron is sorting out the drinks list After the summer vacation .Hence summer wine.The longest day is getting some what closer.Then we shall see a change of the captain in number tenWith me so far?We have a very able script writer who keeps the score for us {Hes in the brackets}If you remove your rose colored specs ,You will encounter a large tube place right eye over the end and you will see a blue colour rosette this is the logo of the Conservative party you cant fail to miss it .zuloo dawn, zu as in nu lab our, loo as in brown paper, and dawn as in defeat, when placed together hope things are a little more clearer,if not please don't hesitate to ask
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555 @ 78
At a time when only citizens could vote in Athens, a non-citizen said to one of its leaders, Pericles, "You could not have got where you are if you had not been an Athenian citizen", to which Pericles replied "that may be so but could you have got to where I have got to if you HAD been an Athenian citizen?"
mmm he sounds a bit dodgy to me, Andy, that Pericles ... did they have clowns back then? - no but seriously your snippet illustrates my exact point, doesn't it? ... aforesaid exact point being that we can't know if someone with a massive head start would have made it on a level playing field, and that (sadly) detracts from the things they achieve in their lives - it's a bit like Ben Johnson and his 9.79 in Seoul - perhaps he would have done it anyway - who knows? - like I say, it's very bad for the supposedly "lucky" well born people since they don't get the respect they deserve - I feel for them, I really do - if I had any friends, some of the best of them would be Spoonies and I know I'd be constantly having to reassure them they were living good/worthwhile lives - a real pain, and it just should not be necessary - best way around all this (I'm sure you'll agree) is to get everyone down in the blocks at the same time - and yes, I know it's not (and will never be) completely possible ... it's not a race, life's not fair, it's all about human nature, bla bla bla ... but we work towards it is what I'm driving at - that IS politics for me ... don't see too much point in it, otherwise
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I don't know if he's an old Etonian or not but they sure have more character than the looney lefty chip on the shoulder socialist labour mixed up crazy kid types.
Doesn't matter, this complex bunch will be kicked out by the electorate soon. Not soon enough for me.
Shame so many academics and lefties just can't see the truth, thanks to them we got lumbered with this appalling corrupt present Labour shower.
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harry @ 94
Yaw! ... you've made that one up, haven't you?
jrp @ 95
Yours is a very poor standard of debate, really
yes well I used all my sober stuff up on the education issue, didn't I? - you know, the one where you agreed with me (and indeed helped in the early stages of policy drafting) but you wouldn't go the extra mile - so what am I meant to do? - easier to focus in on people's names - any case (as I guess you know) there is a deadly serious point here, which is we shouldn't be governed by a tightly knit cabal of ultra privileged individuals all from the same school - we need to spread the net a bit wider than that, don't you think?
laugh @ 74 and DHW @ 70
nooo ... don't go !!
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95 jrperry
"... another Young family. It's quite a popular name, you know. "
==========================
Exactly. In fact, everyone was Young once ...
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Eton, Bullingdon...does Brother Brown not belong to a very influential club as well? Or is that a conspiracy theory?
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Somthing I heard the other day that could apply to this debate.
People have little choice concerning the name they are given when they are born. They also have little choice about the family they are born into and if that family has money or not. Very few children are given the choice of the school they are sent to.
Also a person does not have a choice about the colour of the skin they are born with. People who descriminate against, or make fun of a persons skin colour are racist which I find abhorent as I suspect the vast majority if not all of people who post here would.
Just something some people here may like to consider following the posts they have made.
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#97 I understand that the 11/05/2010 is the last day an election can take place.
The PM has to give a minimum of 6 weeks notice.
Now if PM does not call one is the default 11/05/2010 then ?
therefore PM does not have actually to call it it just happens. has this ever happened in history before ?
what happens to the budget next year if it left to the very last day, as after the election the New PM would want his own budget, ie thats when we get the first Real one to put some of the issues right.
will we not have a budget then Zanu-labour can go into the election without a budget that can be critisied ?
Seems also leaving it last to have an election in OCtober as well. would have to call it in the next couple of weeks. So can have an election befroe there are any PMQ and Question times of the new season.
that then leave the horrid winter months just before christmas, maybe a very low turnout , maybe thats what he is looking for ?
February ?
March ?
whats the thinking on the election date then. as that is really the only game in town the day that Zanoo-labour meets its maker ?
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Cameron's Shadow Ministers will look forward to a salary cut if the Tories win the election. This is laughable since these lads are all loaded, and if in government will introduce legislation that will increase the wealth of the wealthy.
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#52 looks like the unbiased BBC (NOT) is getting in practice ready for the election to help keep the turkeys informed of whom to vote for.
All very subtle and dumbed down
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JohnConstable 93
You said: "Meanwhile, back in shadowland, the shadow people wait patently for buggins turn and if they did turn up post-election in full Bullingdon gear (if only metaphorically), as one poster has suggested, then the electorate will only have themselves to blame."
Well, this seems to be yet another effort to spread the notion (smear, in fact) that the Conservatives' post election plan, whatever they say it is now, will in fact be to hold a massive, private, four-and-a-half-years long cocktail party, followed by them being thrown out by the electorate so hard that they never ever again form a government. It's an idea that is used pretty frequently by a certain type of blogger here, masquerading as intelligent political thinking. If a single vote is swung by such an argument, then it will be a very bad day indeed for democracy.
Reading the posts today, I have come to realise that the intellectual case for voting Labour is stone dead. Not even regular Labour bloggers want to tell us about Labour policy. Indeed, they don't really even want to discuss Conservative policy either. Today has been characterised by name-calling and smearing, that's all. Labour cannot defend itself on its record, and it cannot defend itself on realistic perceptions of what the Conservatives might do in power either. So all we have instead is resigned sniping from a number of "usual suspects". The bloggers are, of course, following the mood of their masters. Jackie Ashley, as we all know, caught it all quite nicely in a piece she wrote a day or so ago. They have just given up.
Labour, it is time to go. Clinging on to power now is more like self-injury than governance. The longer you stay, the more damage you do, to yourselves and to the nation. Go now. Just go.
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105. At 5:48pm on 08 Sep 2009, glaschic wrote:
Cameron's Shadow Ministers will look forward to a salary cut if the Tories win the election. This is laughable since these lads are all loaded, and if in government will introduce legislation that will increase the wealth of the wealthy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
You evidently have information that is denied to the rest of us it would seem! What is your evidence for the above assertion?
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#76, sagamix wrote:
"Gomes Haye-Markentropp @ 63
mocking someone for having a posh sounding name ... how low can you stoop?
yes, sorry, not good ... feel bad now! - but look, you goaded me into it by saying I've got something against "successful" people - I haven't - my egalitarianism springs, as much as anything, from compassion for the privileged classes - would be so much better for everyone if we did away with this head start for the select few - thing is, at present, with all the Baronetcy and Old Etonian nonsense, we can't properly respect the achievements of these (sometimes quite talented) toffee apples..."
What a load of baloney.
Almost everybody I'v met in the UK would like to be part of the "privileged classes" if by that you mean living in a family where it's not a desperate stuggle (or sucking from the pubic teat) to garner enough money for a decent sort of life. Or maybe, if you lose a job, your parents have saved enough to get you through for a while. Seems quite normal to me.
Go check why so many people with rather stretched/marginal incomes decide to send their offspring to a private school. They look for a bit of broad education. Not the "exam results are going up, so we have done a wonderful job" nonsense.
Plenty of privileged people choose to follow a left-leaning view of politics. Quite a number place money into Labour party funds - rather than directly into "good causes". Good choice.
Plenty of very poor people choose another direction, try and make a bundle and shovel some towards the Tories or others. Good choice.
If you have disposable income, it should be your right to spend it as you want.
Doesn't make either set "better people". And certainly doesn't mean that you could rely on either to be morally straighter... Or even care better for their children.
I don't much like politicians who "bleed for the poor people" while on the stage, but scamper around trying to make a personal fortune once out of power. Ring any bells?
But maybe you believe that this government should introduce a genuine wealth tax, so there would be nothing passed from one generation to another?
Time to check that 11,000 page tax-code, Saga.
It may be he time to shovel anything you tried to help you through old age to descendents, before the Great Reaper gives what you have to the State.
So a fifth of our population who can barely read and write would be supported to do what, exactly? Breed?
The Bullingdon seems rediculous. Funny thing is that, in effect, groups with a "let's have a meal, get tanked and break up some stuff" attitude happens in virtually every 6th form college and university in the UK. Just that some people are stupid enough to do it in fancy dress!
I tried to work my way through Brown's epic on Courage. Turgid. Handed off to a charity shop. It's still there. Can't work out why...
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So fairy tales can come true?
The words 'the boys' and 'jobs for' spring to mind. Is that as imaginative as it gets? What happened to more equality? Why not Theresa May? I'm no great fan of hers, or New Tory, but she seems to be out there working for the party. Could it be because she didn't go to Eton?
God forgive me for being such a cynic - can't think how that happened.
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all posts are only untill a general election where upon the members in these posts need to be re elected by the voting public.
who knows those who are leaders today may well be unemployed after any general election.
with recent developments many may well get the boot due to the greed and stupidity of the system they were involved with.
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IR35survivor 104
Actually the final date for the election is the first Thursday in June 2010 which is the 3rd June 2010.
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#107 totally agree Have given the inivation for saga to discuss the Family courts a labour pet policy that they defend to the point of insanity. but has refused. as the only game for thi spolicy is zanu-labour. something that none of the other parties can be blamed for.
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#104 ir35 survivor 11/05/2010 is the default date then ?The longer he prefers not to call an election the worse it becomes ,And he is of the type who will hang on to power till the quicks have long gone from his finger nails, Polices can stay in the pipe line for ever and a day until the new administration start to remove them or keep them as they see fit. Shame the general public have no say as to when he is removed from office only the queen has that jurisdiction to do that.Sad day but thats how it is.
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Nick:
I am glad, that Young is now in the shadow cabinet under the control of David Cameron....
=Dennis Junior=
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fairly @ 109
killer punchline on that post, I have to say!
... but no, by "privileged" I don't mean what you're saying there, I mean born into the sort of wealth/contacts which make success a Slam Dunk if you try even a little bit, and which cushion you from the financial impact of failure (or of doing zilch) if you decide not to try at all - and this point I'm making about having their best interests at heart is a serious one - I'm not messing about, I really feel that way - I mean it - everyone would be better off without this gross inequality of opportunity - "us" because we'd have more chance of developing our potential, and "them" since their achievements would mean so much more - in fact, what am I saying? ... strike that ... there wouldn't BE an "us and them" (would there?) not any longer ... don't you want that, Open? ... don't you want an end to all this dispiriting Us/Them nonsense?
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jrperry @ 107
I post what I post and it is not intended to be masquerading as intelligent political thinking.
It may not be intelligent or even political, it is merely stuff that I come out with, however I do post using my real name.
I only ask that people consider thinking outside of the Labour/Lib-Dem/Tory box and sometimes put up arguments which hopefully support that but it is up to people to think these things through for themselves.
As far as David Cameron and his chums are concerned, then in the context of politics, going to Eton and and having loadsamoney may be viewed by some voters as handicaps that he and the Tories will have to overcome.
And if they they can persuade the majority of the electorate (in reality a few tens of thousands of voters in the key marginal seats) that they will be an efficient and effective Government, well, that is the current system and they will get there.
I would like English people to take far more interest in politics, which if they did, would probably soon lead to the relative demise of the three mainstream parties.
Realistically however, we English are probably going to continue the doleful Labour/Tory cycle until the Scots hopefully shake things up with their independence referendum in November next year.
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delminster @ 111
You say that with recent developments, many (MPs) may well get the boot due to the greed and stupidity of the system they were involved with.
That is precisely what they fear which is why to a greater or lesser extend, all of them, but especially the Tories who may form the next Governemnt, are desparately trying to distance themselves from the expenses saga.
Rationally the electorate should say to themselves, most of the MPs were caught out by it and therefore most of them should get the chop.
This actually happened in America a while back, similar thing - snouts in the expenses trough bigtime, and consequently hundreds of Congressmen/women lost their jobs in the following elections.
One suspects that the average American may be more clued up on politics than people here and therefore not inclined to be as forgiving.
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We definitely need to cut the number of mp's and lords. If it happens after the election hopefuly the Toriues will be able to use their majority to ensure that the victims are all champagne socialists.....
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Ok, I 'm starting to get confused now. Perhaps one of the rabid lefties could explain why having shadow ministers who went to the best school in the country is a bad thing?
Disrimination is obviously a problem, simply put the best should always get the job. I'm sure it's simply a cooincidence that there are more mp's (of any stripe) from eton than from any of Labour's academies (aka centres of mediocrity).
If only Labour had actually put some effort into lifting the standard of public education to the same level as private instead of adopting a lowest common denominator approach
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God you Labour Astroturfing trolls have got some DEEEEEEEP chips on both your shoulders, havent you???? My, oh my....
If the British electorate are truly thick enough (and I mean thick as well, in the most perjorative sense, solid meat between the ears type thick) to vote New Labour back in, after the events of the last 12 years... they deserve everything they get.
Glad I'm abroad.
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76. At 3:24pm on 08 Sep 2009, sagamix wrote:
Gomes Haye-Markentropp @ 63
mocking someone for having a posh sounding name ... how low can you stoop?
yes, sorry, not good ... feel bad now! - but look, you goaded me into it by saying I've got something against "successful" people - I haven't - my egalitarianism springs, as much as anything, from compassion for the privileged classes - would be so much better for everyone if we did away with this head start for the select few - thing is, at present, with all the Baronetcy and Old Etonian nonsense, we can't properly respect the achievements of these (sometimes quite talented) toffee apples ... and that's a shame because, for all we know, they could have made it anyway ... you know, without cheating
===
Are you referring to Baron Mandelson of everything and everywhere, by any chance? your description suits him to a tee.
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#116, sagamix wrote:
"fairly @ 109
killer punchline on that post, I have to say!
... but no, by "privileged" I don't mean what you're saying there, I mean born into the sort of wealth/contacts which make success a Slam Dunk if you try even a little bit, and which cushion you from the financial impact of failure (or of doing zilch) if you decide not to try at all - and this point I'm making about having their best interests at heart is a serious one - I'm not messing about, I really feel that way - I mean it - everyone would be better off without this gross inequality of opportunity - "us" because we'd have more chance of developing our potential, and "them" since their achievements would mean so much more - in fact, what am I saying? ... strike that ... there wouldn't BE an "us and them" (would there?) not any longer ... don't you want that, Open? ... don't you want an end to all this dispiriting Us/Them nonsense?"
Saga,
I've met and worked with people from across the spectrum. I'm sure you have, too. There are prats from all sorts of backgrounds. Some startlingly clever people from disparate backgrounds.
The Us/Them divide seems to have been socially engineered, Saga. People who want to learn and those who don't. I don't give a stuff is somebody happens to have a verifiable trail into their pre-history. Everybody can claim at least as long a lineage as QEII - just biological science, Saga. There was a time when people were given peerages because they did something worthwhile. Now, it's just a bit of "glad to get rid of you", or "we need somebody who actually understands this" to either get shot of them frojm the HoC or prop up a bit of government for a while.
Just what sort of "bred-in" benefits do you have in mind? Bob Geldorf's kids? Prescott's son?
I rather think that Charles can be a bit of a one, but the Princes Trust has worked extraordinarily well to let rather under-privileged children reach for their own stars. Probably better, (charitable) pound for (Tax-payers) pound than Government schemes.
You don't have to poor to vote Tory. Or rich to vote Labour. Or completely lost to vote Liberal. Or really grass-eating to vote Green...
I don't really care which party takes the reins. I'd just like some people to focus on a bit of sensible delivery! OK? Said it.
I don't like the state employing an extra million people, doing sometimes odd jobs, so the employment figures look good. I don't like Health Secretaries trotting out the total numbers of people on the books, rather than the "full-time-equivalents" that business counts. If a nurse leaves the NHS then three people do a part-time job, that's just 1 available nurse (but probably more expensive!).
I hope that Lord Sugar agreed to sign his money away to some government department before taking the ermine. Do you really think that happened?
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#112 thanks for that info supplied to me was a bit of target but
that does not change things much.
so when is the writer of the book "courage" going to use it and
go to the people then ?
what I do not understand is how a PM has time to right a book while supposed to be governing the country
he did not go to eton though thats ok then
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"my egalitarianism springs, as much as anything, from compassion for the privileged classes - would be so much better for everyone if we did away with this head start for the select few"
Well thats Harriet torpedo'd below the waterline then, for a start.
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fairly yellow saunders ...
you're all absolutely right, this isn't a party political issue ... plenty of people from ordinary backgrounds in the Tory Party, plenty of well born types in NewLab ... it's about equality of opportunity - there's nothing evil or terrible about egalitarian thinking - seems to carry a stigma in Britain, for some reason ... "chips on shoulder" and all that stuff - odd (in FOM speak) because it isn't about that at all, it comes from a cool and logical analysis of the problem - it's a core belief of the left wing intellectual elite ... don't you guys have any respect for the LWIE?
IDL @ 120
why is having shadow ministers who went to the best school in the country a bad thing?
well depends how many, doesn't it? - to quote Goldfinger ... "One is happenstance, two is co-incidence, three and more is a self serving cabal completely out of touch with the people they are meant to be representing"
... but okay if you're cool with it then, you know, fair enough ... don't want you lying awake at nights, fretting about it ... you can leave all that to me
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JC @ 117
I do post using my real name
so ... John ... here you are, a chap who's Thing is promoting a coherent idea of a New Englishness, and you've got exactly the same name as the artist who (to many people) defines the look and feel of this country called England! ... spooky
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127#
Sorry to be direct mate but..... Flannel.
I recognise it when I see it. LWIE... you mean the champagne socialists who are born into the same kind of families you find objectionable, get the same education you find objectionable, but they're so drippingly faux embarrassed about it?
No.
I cant stand 'em. You are what you are and its not where you're from, its where you're going to. There IS equality of opportunity, you just got to stop blaming the rest of the world for not dropping it in your lap. You want something bad enough, you'll make the sacrifices to get it. And if you're not prepared to make the sacrifices, you didnt want it badly enough.
How else could Brown possibly have got to be PM? Or Major?
Thing is, without this bogeyman, this public school educated toff bunch who are stealing all the opportunities for the real workers - without them, what have Labour got left? "They're the do nothing tories, they'll cut, we'll invest, remember what happened the last time they got in, the streets flowed with molten lava, interest rates at 5000% per day, planes crashed, the seas roared, the sun went in and didnt come out for years" - you cant avoid explaining to the electorate why youve done what you've done, just by trying to instill the fear of God into the lumpen masses who are too dumb to see through you. Thats not politics, thats manipulation. What happened when everyone had equality of opportunity after the 1917 revolution? All animals became equal except some became more equal than others.
Socialism is dead, its discredited, it doesnt work, its finished. The Russians did it for 80 years and had to give up. Strong leadership bordering on being a benevolent (or otherwise) dictatorship is one thing, but at least have the guts to admit it. Trying to dress it up as being for the benefit of the masses because its of them, for them and by them.... phooey. What happened in Russia? Everybody except the party, got the same. And everyone, except the party was universally poor. Ambition? Aspiration? Theft!
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JohnConstable wrote at 117;:
"Realistically however, we English are probably going to continue the doleful Labour/Tory cycle until the Scots hopefully shake things up with their independence referendum in November next year"
Yep! I can't wait for the SNP to win that referendum!
Then when we are no longer oppressed by the Scottish Labour Mafia, Westminster will never have a Labour majority ever again!.
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sagamix wrote at 126:
" it isn't about that at all, it comes from a cool and logical analysis of the problem - it's a core belief of the left wing intellectual elite ..."
How can you possibly suggest that the left wing is intellectually elite?
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fubar @ 128
that's a fair enough critique of one party state communism, which IS (as you say) discredited - but I'm not talking about a New Gulag, or anything close to it, I'm merely looking for some fairly modest changes to one or two things ... education, tax, affirmative action ... so we can be a better country - we've stuck these peculiar (to Britain) obstacles in our own way and I'd like to see them removed, that's all - I mean, why run a race in Irons when you don't have to? - it's silly - don't understand the hostility, I really don't - don't see why people are so wedded to the status quo - there's nothing to be scared of, honestly! - all very gradual and no bodies - not so much a Great Leap Forward, more a groping towards the light switch
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#126, sagamix wrote:
"fairly yellow saunders ...
you're all absolutely right, this isn't a party political issue ... plenty of people from ordinary backgrounds in the Tory Party, plenty of well born types in NewLab ... it's about equality of opportunity - there's nothing evil or terrible about egalitarian thinking - seems to carry a stigma in Britain, for some reason ... "chips on shoulder" and all that stuff - odd (in FOM speak) because it isn't about that at all, it comes from a cool and logical analysis of the problem - it's a core belief of the left wing intellectual elite ... don't you guys have any respect for the LWIE?"
Saga,
LWIE. Respect for? in a word - NO.
LWIE thought that the USSR was simply protecting its regional interests while tanks trundled through - oh, just forget it.
I'd like every child to get a good education. But if you try and "teach on an individual level at the pace of the child", you could simply go back to the way it was... Parents taught children. Then teachers taught children.
But if the children are told that it's all about them, there is no social cohesion at all.
Sit down, shut up, learn. That's pretty well how it happens in India, China, swathes of Africa. Guess which are the economies likely to grow during this century.
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131#
Eh?? Mate, what the fluff are you on about?? Running races in irons? Groping for the light switch?? What obstacles?
Labour morphed into New Labour, became more centrist and adopted a swathe of tory policies, because it was the only way they were going to get elected and therefore gain power.
Like it or not, most of the country is conservative with a very small c, if not in its politics then in its attitudes. Thats why all three of the main parties spend so much time sucking up to middle England. It cant be wished away, no matter how much the "its grim up north" crowd might want it to be.
You want power and influence? You want their vote? Promise them what they think they want and the rest is easy.
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fs @ 133 - I think you're right, most of the country is small cee conservative (the reaction, from you and others, to my rather mild proposals for change would certainly indicate that's the case) and so I guess it's only fair we get governed accordingly - perhaps things will change over the next few years, I do hope so - in the meantime, I need to mull over one or two things: most importantly, am I ... (1) a Stalinist? ... or (2) a Champagne Socialist? ... or (3) this intriguing sounding new one, a part of the "It's Grim Up North" crowd? - will revert in due course
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134#
I've already told you mate. You're Clarkson's alter-ego from a parallel dimension.
He's a public school educated, ranting professional agitator and wind-up merchant, who lives in the Cotswolds and would string cheesewire across the road to stop bikers going past his house, hates vegetarians, tree-huggers and Gordon Brown... and you're the alter ego.
Hence the other previous comparison between Ace and Arnold Rimmer.
:-)
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sagamix @ 127
It is a co-incidence that my namesake is John Constable, the famous English landscape artist, some of my relatives have gone to desparate lengths to prove that we are related!
I would rather have had a more anoymous name but obviously had no choice in the matter.
I use my real name on these blogs simply to provide a self-censoring mechanism.
As the actress Helen Mirren sagely pointed, your anonymity is a precious thing and that you do not realise just how valuable it is until you have lost it.
Which is especially important on the web, where nothing is forgotten, ever.
I intend to remain as a relatively anonymous Englishman making my points on these blogs because I believe that ideas, particularly political ideas, are very powerful things.
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#1 Sagamix.
Nope, but the 6th Baronet did claim expenses on a second home that was within shooting distance of Westminster. Pull!
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#73 - jrperry
So I did! Silly me! Frightfully sorry.
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