The 'C' word
So Gordon Brown will finally allow the "C" word - cuts - to pass his lips.
Ministers and aides have told him that if his economic argument is to be heard, the electorate must believe in his ability on public spending, and that means clearing the decks on the "C" word.
The chancellor prepared the ground this morning by telling the FT of his frustration at what he calls the "game" being played by journalists over use of the "C" word and points to Mr Brown's track record of cutting departmental spending in the past. For example, in his last Budget of 2007.
Peter Mandelson was clearly frustrated by being asked repeatedly to utter the "C" word on the Today programme yesterday. This convinced him and Alistair Darling that they needed to "end the semantic game" as quickly as possible.
The reason that I for one have asked again and again about cuts is because I don't believe that there should be a gap between the government's rhetoric and its own economic forecasts. The forecasts do show that cuts are coming in investment spending - and that, once debt interest and unemployment are accounted for, cuts are coming in day-to-day spending too.
Brown's advisers have told him that if he is seen to be upfront with voters, they are much more likely to listen to his case - that case being that Tory cuts would wreck recovery and would damage public services.
The next act in this drama will be the chancellor's pre-Budget report. It is increasingly clear that Alistair Darling plans to announce a spending package designed to force the Tories to spell out what more they would do, or to expose that they are refusing to do so and have hidden plans.
I'm 
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The reason that I for one have asked again and again about cuts is because I don't believe that there should be a gap between the government's rhetoric and its own economic forecasts.
Nick. You've certainly pressed Cameron, Osborne and the Conservatives over and over again, this is the first time you've confided to us that you've pressed the Government about them — and until now, why should you have done? They never had any plans for cuts in Brown's la-la-land.
Alistair Darling's 'trap' will fail — we all understand perfectly well that the Conservatives aren't stupid enough to commit themselves when they've been denied access to Treasury figures. But so far I'm liking what I'm hearing from them — cutting quangos, ID cards, less public servant non-jobs, smaller BBC — great stuff.
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Nick:
So Gordon Brown will finally allow the "C" word - cuts - to pass his lips.
Maybe, Gordon Brown, that word will come out of Gordon Brown mouth (lips) in the nearby future....
=Dennis Junior=
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If this government spent as much effort running the country as they do spinning and weaving every single sentence for their own political gain maybe this once wonderful country could be great again.
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There is a huge budget deficit - thats a fact
To rectify that we will either raise taxes and/or cut spending - thats a fact as well.
Even if we don't cut in money terms if any increase is less than inflation its a cut - thats a fact as well
So if we have to correct the deficit we will fact cuts and taxes - perhaps just this once our politicians might like to consider honesty - aparently its the best policy ?
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Gordon Brown is a well meaning man who is trying to govern a UK full of tax evaders, bankers and hedge funds who tried every possible trick to mislead the public and the government. These finacial elite-weasels like nothing more than a quick profit, no matter the consequences for the long-term stability of the economy.
Apart from tax cuts and cutting public services the Tories have little to offer in terms of better policy which could lead to a sustainable UK economy.
Even today, after years of asking, we still don't know if Lord Ashcroft, the Tory party’s deputy chairman, is domiciled for tax purposes in the UK.
Good boy Cameron is too timid to ask Lord Ashcroft questions when it comes to tax evasion and tax avoidance, the Tories are still masters of this trade.
If UK millionaires and billionaires would be forced to repatriate some of their ill-gotten, often untaxed gains from their beloved tax havens (Cayman Islands, Virgin Islands, Belize, Switzerland), then public spending cuts would have to be much less severe.
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"Brown's advisers have told him that if he is seen to be upfront with voters, they are much more likely to listen to his case"
That's his problem right there... he's never been upfront with people, everything he says is a lie. Unless he's going to start this speech with an apology for lying to us about "Labour Investment", nothing will change - he, and is party, are doomed.
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Despite what Gordon Brown and his patronising, arrogant spin-obsessed cronies seem to think, the British people are quite capable of determining that cuts are required after years of nonsensical excess and incompetence. What people want to hear is not a grudging "C" word - what's needed is an even more grudging "E" word - ELECTION. Caledonian Comment
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'This convinced him and Alistair Darling that they needed to "end the semantic game" as quickly as possible.'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I recall that it was Gordon that started the 'semantic game' and ranting about Tory cuts - even though these are contained/implied/imputed within/from his chancellor's own budget forecasts.
Sheer hypocrisy and incompetence!
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"It is increasingly clear that Alistair Darling plans to announce a spending package designed to force the Tories to spell out what more they would do, or to expose that they are refusing to do so and have hidden plans"
But surely the spending package should be designed to help the economy.
Surely the Chancellor should introduce the right policies - rather than the strategic and expedient ones, as Nick suggests he plans to do.
Is that too much to hope for?
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Nick - take a break - write a book - just wait for the General Election and LIEBOURS oblivion. This pointless shilly shallying over "cuts" is a waste of time- does ANYONE believe Clown and Mandelson?????? Any sane person knows the UK is broke and generations will be paying for this lots utter failure.
The Tories may not reveal their plans - why should they??? - would u if u had not seen the books??? - get real and ask some hard questions - we pay u to do that and so far u have failed.
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So this is going to be them attempting to weasel out of ever having denied there would be cuts is it?
They will try to pass using the "c" words off as a silly journalistic game, patronisingly implying that the media do not really know what they are talking about, and scoff that it was all just a misunderstanding (on our part of course, not theirs). I heard the interview with the P.M's former advisor while I was motivating myself to get out of bed this morning (his name slips my mind), another odious, obnoxious little man who can't finish a sentence without some kind of jibe or dig at the opposition. In contrast, Osbourne, although not my favourate politician, was dignified, mild mannered, and confident, defending his position without seeming to be on the defencive.
So, labour strategy:
1) Insult and patronise the Tories
2) Insult and patronise the media
3) Insult and patronise the general public
4) Hope everyone has collective selective amnesia.
Just how low can these lousy excuses of ministers (and Peter Mandleson) sink? It is an insult to this country that they continue to cling on to their positions by the fingernails to the last minute in the face of overwhelming evidence that we, the public, do not want their greasy dirty mits anywhere near the reigns.
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6. At 10:26am on 15 Sep 2009, invisiblehandadvisor wrote:
Gordon Brown is a well meaning man who is trying to govern a UK full of tax evaders, bankers and hedge funds who tried every possible trick to mislead the public and the government. These finacial elite-weasels like nothing more than a quick profit, no matter the consequences for the long-term stability of the economy.
==============================================================
Yes gordon is trying - very trying.
Its nice to see the politics of envy is still alive and well, along with a sprinkling of New Labours 'not our fault guv, a rich kid did it and ran away!'.
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6
Would you like to provide evidence of bankers, hedge fund managers et al attempting to mislead the public?
I could definately provide you with more than a few of your beloved Gordon doing the same.
How is it your business where Lord Ashcroft is domiciled for tax purposes? If he choses to spend more of time abroad than in the UK, that is his own decision, and it does not effect his UK income which will still be taxed under UK tax laws. Why should you think the UK is entitled to a share of his non UK income?
And as for raising the tax on a few high earners, if you bothered to read into the matter you would quickly discover that the extra revenue raised by such measures would be irrelevent.
And for your information, tax evasion is illegal, tax avoidance is not. Tax avoidance can be something as simple as, say, making sure that you sell shareholdings over an appropriate time period to maximise the use of your capital gains tax allowance.
Another envious, chip on his shoulder, punish and hate the rich type.
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oh I do not believe it, the level of political discourse in this country - what on Earth are we coming to? - so he's going to say "cuts" and then everyone's going to jump up and down and point at him and go "nah nah na na nah nah, you've said cuts!" - pathetic - can't stand it any longer - I'm off abroad - somewhere where politics is rather more than a parlour game for the under fives - somewhere like Paris where I can wear a black polo neck and sit around the Left Bank with like minded people having a serious debate about serious issues - promoting the things which are truly important ... equal opportunities, affirmative action, greater respect for traffic wardens, all that ... just hope it's not too late for me
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It's far too late for Brown to rebrand himself as honest and upfront. All Labour have done for the last 12 years is spin and try to court the media. Reappointing Mandy just goes to prove this.
I can't see why there is such focus on what the Tory plans are. Labour has a massive organisation in the shape of the civil service to help write and cost spending plans, and so far they have refused to do this. It is unrealistic to think that the conservatives plus a few advisors could come up with a detailed spending review - I'd certainly expect them to wait until they are in power.
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"The next act in this drama will be the chancellor's pre-Budget report. It is increasingly clear that Alistair Darling plans to announce a spending package designed to force the Tories to spell out what more they would do, or to expose that they are refusing to do so and have hidden plans."
Have the Conservatives been given full, unequivocal, access to every department's accounts? How can they plan a full budget/spending review without this information...??
Wouldn't it be nice to have a government that makes decisions based purely on what the country needs, rather than their own political posturing?
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£60 Billion is forecast as the interest payments on the financial fiasco this Government has presided over.
My grandchildren will be paying for this disaster,Gordon Brown the man who put the B into Bankrupt.
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Any more c words available ? Consideration for the anguish being piled on the British public for how much longer may i ask? Call an election before an other c word is uttered Mr brown .
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So, if the Tories haven't seen the books, and the public haven't seen the books, how do we know how bad things are supposed to be? Cutting when we need to be spending in order to stimulate the economy seems daft. Dave and George, those highly experienced economists, are just going to go berserk and cut everything back to the Dark Ages in the name of Conservatism. Then they can give some tax cuts to their friends.
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18
Saga
You can hardly blame anyone but Brown over this (and it is a little farcical, I agree).
"Investment versus cuts" etc. ad inf.
He deliberately tried to mislead the public, he was found out, and now he is trying to laugh it off as a silly game about semantics. Should we let him? Absolutely not.
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"And as for raising the tax on a few high earners, if you bothered to read into the matter you would quickly discover that the extra revenue raised by such measures would be irrelevent."
Quite right. The absurd, pointless and ineffective reduction in VAT has cost the excheqour the equivilent of 6 YEARS worth of extra tax which the increase in top rate tax is supposed to bring in. Besides whihc, of course, it won't bring it in. The 'tipping point' for tax avoidance schemes is usually any tax rate above 40%. Every economy finds this. Trying to take more than half of wwhat someone earns (don't forget the 1.5% NIC increase) is objectionable and will lead to a growth in avoidance schemes. What the socialists can't seem to realise is that 51.5% of nothing is nothing.
When tax rates fell in the 80s the wealthiest paid MORE as a percentage of their income as they stopped indulging in tax avoidance schemes.
But Brown cannot resist making a 'statement'. The fact that it will drive away businessmen and forcce others to avoid tax is beside his point, which is that Labour just cannot stomach wealth and success.
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"Brown's advisers have told him that if he is seen to be upfront with voters, they are much more likely to listen to his case - that case being that Tory cuts would wreck recovery and would damage public services"
Only our worst leader in living memory would need to waste yet more public money on advisers to point out what should be blatantly obvious.
So, who will the electorate listen to on this matter? The man who has spent months summoning up the courage just to say the "dreaded" word or, the opposition who, like most of the adult population of this country, know that we cannot continue to hemorrhage the financial future of the next 2 generations whilst Gorden Brown attempts to save his political neck.
His 10 years in charge of the nations purse did more than anything else to put us in this parlous state and only those with a vested interested still trust him to get us out of it.
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Its obvious that cuts must be made, by which ever party is in power come the next GE. Browns refusal to say the C word just makes him look like a small little child who's terrified of being found out when they've told a lie.
For once I actually agree with Saga though that this is such big news.
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24#
Ah, another rebuttal unit login. Must be a piece-meal competition going on for tickets to the Labour conference. Whoever posts the largest amount of hackneyed class-warrior, dog-whistle, dumbed down garbage gets a trip to conference!
Second prize: Two trips to conference.....
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18. At 10:53am on 15 Sep 2009, sagamix wrote:
oh I do not believe it, the level of political discourse in this country - what on Earth are we coming to? - so he's going to say "cuts" and then everyone's going to jump up and down and point at him and go "nah nah na na nah nah, you've said cuts!" - pathetic - can't stand it any longer - I'm off abroad - somewhere where politics is rather more than a parlour game for the under fives - somewhere like Paris where I can wear a black polo neck and sit around the Left Bank with like minded people having a serious debate about serious issues - promoting the things which are truly important ... equal opportunities, affirmative action, greater respect for traffic wardens, all that ... just hope it's not too late for me
===================================================
Good luck and all that saga, but how can you possibly promote both equal opportunities and affirmative action?
Equal opportunities does what it says on the tin so to speak.
Isn't affirmative action where as a white male I must now be overlooked for a job simply because in the past white males had it easier than other groups, so for no fault of my own I have to pay for their ease of employment?
if this isn't what you mean by affirmative action, then please do tell.
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18. sagamix
oh I do not believe it, the level of political discourse in this country - what on Earth are we coming to? - so he's going to say "cuts" and then everyone's going to jump up and down and point at him and go "nah nah na na nah nah, you've said cuts!"
As bad as saying the Tories are "foaming at the mouth" and "drooling"...
One size fits all.
Brown has constantly REFUSED to admit that he will have to make spending cuts, hence the (somewhat schoolground) reaction.
***
6.invisiblehandadvisor
Re Offshore funds, tax evasion, money laundering etc.
Look these up: Lord Puttnam, Lord Paul, Lord Hamlyn, Abe Jaffe, Lord (Swarj) Paul, Lakshmi Mittal, Uri David... to name a few.
New addition: ACL Blair?
All Labour, definitely not the preserve of the Tories, invisible.
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#18
Excellent spinning. Brown said that the choice was between "Labour investment and Tory cuts". Now he admits cuts will be necessary. So either he knew this all along and was lying ealier or he (alone) failed to understand the need for cuts.
Either way it doesn't show him in the best light does it?
So what can we do to spin this one? Oh, just say it doesn't really matter and it's all a bit childish.
Nice try but it's just another example of Brown's lack of honesty and of his incompetence. I would have thought a floating voter such as yourself could at least bring yourself to see this.
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"Aaaaaaaaaaaaand Cut!"
"Apologies Mr Speaker, ...
... I meant: I recommend this budget to the House!"
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24
If all else fails, lets exaggerate and reductio ad absurdem.
Both sides are going to cut. But Tory cuts will take us back to the dark ages, Labour cuts will usher in a new age of enlightenment.
Because eveyone knows that when you are broke, the only way to get yourself out of debt is to spend more.
A certain gamblers (il)logic at the head of our government methinks.
Tax cuts to their friends? Of course, much better to tax those who work and just hand the money to those who don't.
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"Brown's advisers have told him that if he is seen to be upfront with voters, they are much more likely to listen to his case - that case being that Tory cuts would wreck recovery and would damage public services.
“The next act in this drama will be the chancellor's pre-Budget report. It is increasingly clear that Alistair Darling plans to announce a spending package designed to force the Tories to spell out what more they would do, or to expose that they are refusing to do so and have hidden plans.”
========================================================================
On the assumption that both the PM and Chancellor will now start to set a programme of cuts in public expenditure, it seems there argument will be “Labour cuts good, Tory cuts bad.”
There is a fighting chance that the electorate won’t be taken in by this, particularly after all the twisting and turning and endless contorted spinning it has taken the Government even to get to this point.
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I'm getting a strong sense of déjà vu with some of these recent posts.
Like they have been lifted from a previous blog.
Brownhog Day?
The sooner election day arrives the better. Then we can get on with our lives...rioting, strikes, collapse of the Western world, anything for a change.
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And there are no Tory boys here. You are talking at two expats and a person who will do absolutely anything to get Gordon Brown and his sullied useless cabinet out and stop them wrecking this country's economy.
Nice attempt to divert from the real argument here by blaming it all on people who try to pay less tax.
People in pig ignorant houses should not throw manure. A lifetime spent in financial study and practice, and I forgot more yesterday following a mediocre drinking binge than you will ever have the capacity to learn.
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To those of you who suggested certain C words and rhyming couplets , a big thank you for covering my key board in coffee.
To Sagamix, I do hope the Westbank is as blinkered as you, otherwise you may find the French a little daunting!
People of action , the French!
They don't hang about giving it " sacre bleu!" "merde!"
They get up an blockade things until the Government complies with their wishes.
After all , what is the point of electing an MP to represent your wishes and then finding the b^%%er merely toes the party line and ignores them?
Over Iraq for instance?
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Cant to wait to hear how GB wriggles out of this one. Suggest the BBC blogging department staff up for the impending rush of comments.
When you you take a step back from this debacle what a load of tosh this situation is. Petty politicking, deceipt and arrogance is what i see. What an embaressment we are to the world. Contrast the direct plain speaking of Obama in the last few days to what our bunch of losers spurt out. We are no longer 'Great' Britain. I am ashamed. Really ashamed.
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So Gordon Brown has been told/advised that he must use the word 'cuts' if he is to be believed about his plans for the economy. By implication this would suggest that he had no intention of mentioning the word at all if left to his own devices. Twill be interesting to see in what context he uses it and what the body language reveals whilst he makes his utterance.
As for Alistair Darling's plan for a pre-budget report designed to make the Tories reveal their intentions my ghast is flabbered!!! Surely any budget strategy should be based on what is good for the economy and thus the Country, not, as Darling seems to be doing, just a means of getting the oppositon to show their hand.
For all our sakes please get this deluded, corrupt shower out of Government soon.
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@invisiblehandadvisor, you might wanna have a read of this and conlcude that the few billion tax revenues from tax exiles will not really help you out that much:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8004567.stm
And my best guess is that the UK's structural fiscal position has actually worsened since the OECD put out the referenced forecast for the strucutral deficit which equals 4,250 pounds per annum per person working in the private sector.
PS Your hero Brown was already running a deficit close to 3% of GDP before summer 2007, gearing the budget cycle towards planned elections in the autumn of 2007, but then sudddenly Cameron made a half-decent conference speech and Brown subsequently lost his bottle.
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So Gordon is finally going to catch-up with reality and use the "C" Word, and make a "C"risis out of a Drama???
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Nick, I think that if they are being childish by talking of a semantic game, you should play them at their own game, and invest in a QI-style 'hooter' alarm to be triggered whenever the 'C-Word' is mentioned.
Or maybe even a US Network TV style 'Ooh-la-la' voiceover and pixellation whenever the 'C-Word' is mentioned, just like they us to keep 'F-Bombs' away from sensitive American ears...
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The Government should set out clearly, no equivocation, just how it intends to deal with the economy.
Spend less time on second guessing the Opposition and let us know their plans. I am fed up with hearing Cabinet Ministers moaning about the Tories will do this, that and the other. When asked what they will do, ie what CUTS? they will not even mention the word. Your prompting may cause them to reconsider and print another HYMN SHEET.
However, old habits die hard, they do not trust us the Tax Payer. When they do maybe a new mindset will be adopted, somehow I doubt it. They are too concerned with not giving a straight answer to a staight question.
When the Government sets out its stall, honestly, no spin, then they may be able to question the Tories.
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Don't bottle it, Gordon! Just keep spending way beyond the country's means for another few months and you can leave an almighty mess for those nasty tories to sort out. You can blame it all on them!
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Gordon says a word! Still pandering to virtual people? A little triumphant maybe?
It seems contrary to the views expressed here on "NuLab, the public like media manipulators and propaganda merchants like the Tories. The media with stories like this are obviously the same. You appear to have rolled over to let Cameron tickly your belly.
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@53
Dont encourage the man to stay! Deary me we need him out now, its going to be hard enough to sort the mess out, let alone with another few months of crazy schemes to waste money in the name of "anything but cuts".
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Brown, Darling, Mandelson et al. are meant to be sorting out the dire financial problems currently affecting UK plc. Cameron, Osborne etc are meant to be holding the Government to task and making sure they do this. Instead we keep hearing supposedly intelligent grown up men and women debating what words to use!!
It would make the perfect Monty Python sketch called the "My cuts are better than your cuts" scene.
Meanwhile the Country goes to h*ll in a handcart - unbelievable!!
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I followed the headline, tune in to see Gordon say the C word, almost as exciting as the first lesbian kiss in a soap opera .
Now you could argue that they have said "reduction" "reduce" or many more words that mean the same, I'm a simple engineer "keep things simple"
More than anything I want Brown, Cameron,Nick Clegg and Alex Salmond to speak the truth and nothing but the truth, tell it how it is, dont sex it up , we can handle it, and if we dont like something we will tell you and likewise if your doing well we will let you know, stop listening to the press, think tanks, opinion polls etc, get out from behind your desks , walk the walk and speak to us, get every single mp out of Westminster and round the country asking and listening
simple really
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Is it sad that my first thought on seeing this article was "I wonder how the commenters on Nick's blog will respond to this?"
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090915/tuk-any-leader-better-than-brown-dba1618.html
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The only "CUT" I'd like to make is the jobs of these imbeciles.
Brown is a foll
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54 dhw
Presumably you are incoherent with rage for some reason. Calm down and have another go, so that we can have some idea of what you are on about.
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"If UK millionaires and billionaires would be forced to repatriate some of their ill-gotten, often untaxed gains from their beloved tax havens (Cayman Islands, Virgin Islands, Belize, Switzerland), then public spending cuts would have to be much less severe."
Morally you are right but the reality is that would not happen. tax havens will always exist and unless the americans and canadians and europeans and every other g7 country had a standard policy on such individuals ( tax rates , allowances etc) they will simply move to the best package
Yuppies means upwardly mobile.
Middle Working Class Britains still fund this country to pay for the benefits for those who can't and more worringly wont work and to pay for the state
It'll be a simple choice at the election massive tax rises under the labour ( to go with the large rises since 1997) or a mixture of cuts and rises under the tories. Labour can't idealogically cut public sector costs as they are bankrolled by the turkeys who don't vote for xmas ( me included)
That why the Opinion Polls say what they currently say .. discredited government in its death throes!
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Ok, let's have a dose of realism here, people.
There ARE going to be cuts. In case anybody failed to notice - we just spent an ENORMOUS amount of public money propping up failing banks. Far more than we could afford to spend, far, FAR more than we actually had.
(And before the usual partisan hacks start up about "NuLab" or "Lefties" or whatever - I don't recall David Cameron or Nick Clegg exactly falling over themselves in their hurry to object to this bailout, at the time. In fact, I don't remember them objecting AT ALL. In fact, I seem to remember both of them were pretty clear that there was no other choice and that they supported the proposals. So if any of you are gonna pipe up with "If only the Tories/LibDems had been in charge and not Labour, things would have been different" then please don't waste your time expecting a response to your nonsense - not from me, anyway).
So now, that money has to come back from somewhere. Sure, some of it may well come back from the banks themselves; but that's not at all guaranteed. And even if it all comes back, there's still a hell of a short-fall.
So; whichever party comes to power, they're going to have to raise the cash by either cuts in public spending, or by raising taxes. Or, more likely, a combination of both. None of them want to tell us what they would do, this side of a general election; because we're not gonna like the answers to that question, and they think that if they're honest about the situation and their plans this will prevent us from voting for them.
Well, I dunno about you guys - but in my case, for one, it's having the OPPOSITE effect. Every day that goes past without them outlining some sort of plan as to where and how they're going to raise this money - and I mean, an actual PLAN, some DETAILS, not just some wishy-washy nonsense about how some cuts will probably be needed coupled with insistence that the other parties would definitely screw things up and ruin the country if any of them get into power - deepens my dislike and mistrust of these people. Certainly, I'm not going to vote for ANY of them unless they have the respect for me to tell me, in advance, what they're going to do if they get into power.
And I'm clearly not the only one who understands this;
"Brown's advisers have told him that if he is seen to be upfront with voters, they are much more likely to listen to his case..."
So it appears that Brown's advisers have some degree of common sense, even if Brown himself is woefully lacking in this department. Somebody needs to tell the Conservatives, Lib Dems, and everybody else this, too.
And before I go - to address those of you going on about "the Tories can't say anything because they haven't seen the figures" - can I just say, what a load of old nonsense. Again, I hope you're at least fooling yourselves with this one; 'cos you certainly ain't fooling me.
They have enough information (apparently) to criticise the government on every spending plan and fiscal policy it's announced. What - suddenly, now it comes to talking about what they're going to do in the future, they don't have ANY information and can't even give us a clue what they're going to do? Like, they've forgotten all the plans that Labour have made over the past 5 years, for instance, that they (and the Lib Dems) have objected to because they're going to cost too much??? Really???
Then do we really WANT this bunch of amnesiacs and idiots in power...?
They're lying to you, people. And you're buying it.
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37#
It is becoming rather tiresome repeating yourself, I know. Lord knows, I have done it many times on this blog.
But, as your login is a new one, let me put some flesh on the bones for you.
You know how you can easily be identified as an astroturfer? Put in its most simple form, you think that everyone that opposes New Labour, everyone who differs, must be Conservative. It is this rabid "brook no dissent, internal or otherwise, nanny decides what you will talk about" attitude that should cost you dearly. It is akin to a Soviet ships political officer holding discussions amongst the officer cadre as to which is their favourite Lenin speech. There is only your way and no other way. You will not accept any other idea, school of thought or doctrine unless you can either pass it off as your own idea all along, or you are shamed into it.
You're also never to blame for anything, it is always someone elses doing. You dont accept that there may be better ways of implementing or executing an idea or plan. There is never any contrition, except for what you were never to blame for in the first place.
Happy so far, sitting there at your PC at LabourList HQ? Good. Glad to see you're keeping up.
Right. Lets take your original post shall we?
"...trying to govern a UK full of tax evaders, bankers and hedge funds who tried every possible trick to mislead the public and the government."
Considering it is a matter of record that New Labour were intensely rich about people being very wealthy and that there have been numerous connections between Hedge funds that support Labour and have given them money, not to mention the amount of bankers and financiers that Labour have ennobled and invited into positions of government and the fact that the current PM, the former chancellor, crafted a taxation regime so welcoming to their type of business, this statement of yours is nothing more than hollow, dog-whistle politics designed to appeal to the lowest common dumbed-down denominator, ie the Labour core vote in the former nothern industrial wastelands who would vote for a chimp if it wore a red rosette.
"These finacial elite-weasels like nothing more than a quick profit, no matter the consequences for the long-term stability of the economy."
Funnily enough, I dont disagree with that statement. But, what I do have trouble with, is who exactly has had their controlling hand on the tiller for the last 12 years? Who could have regulated their behaviour? No, Dont tell me, I know already!!!! It was Margaret Thatcher right???
"Apart from tax cuts and cutting public services the Tories have little to offer in terms of better policy which could lead to a sustainable UK economy."
Well, to me that sounds infinitely better than following Gordon and Hattie into hell in their handcart. Pardon me if I like the idea of that.
"Even today, after years of asking, we still don't know if Lord Ashcroft, the Tory party’s deputy chairman, is domiciled for tax purposes in the UK. Good boy Cameron is too timid to ask Lord Ashcroft questions when it comes to tax evasion and tax avoidance, the Tories are still masters of this trade."
I've got two words for you.
"Geoffrey" and "Robinson".
Oh, actually, on reflection, I've got a few more than that... Try "Blair" and "blind trust" (you think he's gong to hang around in UK and pay Gordy's 50% rate? Hah!) You might also want to consider the name "Philip Green" and also while you're at it, you might want to look up "Lakshmi Narayan Mittal", "Nigel and a certain chap who owns a yacht called Deripaska, who seems to be a very good friend of the man who has more government titles than anyone in history.
"If UK millionaires and billionaires would be forced to repatriate some of their ill-gotten, often untaxed gains from their beloved tax havens (Cayman Islands, Virgin Islands, Belize, Switzerland), then public spending cuts would have to be much less severe."
If. If, If. If your tax regime wasnt as turgid as it is, if your system of lax regulation wasnt as woeful as it is... it is your rules, designed by Gordon which has allowed this to happen. Who else is going to force them? Dont tell me...... Not Maggie again, right??? Public spending cuts would have to be much less severe if Gordon hadnt micturated every single cent up the wall in the great pursuit of the top job.
Now. Run along back to Labour List. Nothing to see here.
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#27 Fubar_Saunders
OMG, Harriet Harman in a position of power and responsibility... scary thought :-(
Actually, the whole NuLab mentality has become frightening, look at what Ed Balls is trying to defend. Let's hope he makes a full U-turn.
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#15
Yes, that's the very word that comes to mind.
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@ sagamix, post #18
"...promoting the things which are truly important ... equal opportunities, affirmative action, greater respect for traffic wardens, all that ... just hope it's not too late for me"
Umm... sorry to be the one to break this to you. But given the three things you seem to think are actually important right now, then yes. It's far too late for you.
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So does one take it from Gordon Brown's latest reincarnation (how many is it now?) that little Eddie Balls and his ambitions for a scorched earth policy have run into the mud?
How can it be? Little Eddie Balls and his super talented Yvette who always know 'the right thing to do'. Is it now right to cut rahter thanto spend? Are little Eddie and Yvette to be thanked for their contributionand cut? Only time wil tell.
As for the very dea that the newlabour party announcing cuts will put the tories on the back foot; the tories have been twelve months ahead of this game and have nothing to aplogise for and nothing to explain; they simply piled on so much pressure that the government cracked.
Now the governement should go; if newlabour is not for spending money then what is it for?
Call an election.
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Rome
" More than anything I want Brown, Cameron,Nick Clegg and Alex Salmond to speak the truth and nothing but the truth, tell it how it is, dont sex it up , we can handle it, and if we dont like something we will tell you and likewise if your doing well we will let you know, stop listening to the press, think tanks, opinion polls etc"
The innocence of youth. Are you a green?
We would have no need of polticians, then, what would we all talk about?
Whilst you're at it, could you ensure that all women behave rationally and only change their minds after careful consideration of the available information?
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Gordon Brown, the man that brought an end to boom and bust and replaced them with bankrupt.
Well done Gordon, well played sir.
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57. At 12:19pm on 15 Sep 2009, romeplebian wrote:
...........More than anything I want Brown, Cameron,Nick Clegg and Alex Salmond to speak the truth and nothing but the truth, tell it how it is, dont sex it up , we can handle it, and if we dont like something we will tell you and likewise if your doing well we will let you know, stop listening to the press, think tanks, opinion polls etc, get out from behind your desks , walk the walk and speak to us, get every single mp out of Westminster and round the country asking and listening
simple really
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Fully agree with everything you have said in this paragraph but.... it won't happen!
In order for it to happen politicians would have to accept that most of the population of the UK has a far clearer picture of what effect the current economic situation is having on people who live in the real World.
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There is a whole world of difference between saying and doing. NuLiebour have spent the last 10 years saying one thing and doing another- that's why we are in the mess we are in now.
Why should we believe them now, after all they have been dragged kicking and screaming to this point.
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If the C word can be spoken now then can we expect the E word soon as well (that's Election Gordon, in case you couldn't work it out!).
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Cut is the new buzzword of Blimpy Gordon Brown.
Underhanded and cruel, he's a very unpleasant man.
No lie will be spared as he clings to his crown.
The country ,in the end, will be left carrying the can.
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So the truth is that Brown considers the British people to be sheep like fools who can be fooled most of the time.
But he has now been informed that no one is now fooled by his Emperors cloths.
So he moves and now admits he was miss-leading the electorate trying to paint his opponents in an untrue light.
But the new position and you will hear it from every spin department turned out Liebour spokesman is "Tories Drooling over cut". One word Desperate.
They really must have such contempt for the average intelligence of the voting public.
I'm sure some of these people used to work making up GMTV quiz's
Are any of us really as thick as they think we are?
Oh come the joyous day when there will be a line of ex Liebour MP's heading for Job Centre Plus.
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I have no issue with Brown supporters trying to divert criticism by pointing fingers at shady bankers and tax dodgers. But they singularly fail to explain why as chancellor for over 10 years he spectacularly sat on his hands and did nothing to address their dealings and ill-gotten gains. Presumably because for most of his tenure he was only too happy to sit back and enjoy the ride - with just the odd muttering and reference to Prudence!
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#18 sagamix
I'm thinking maybe, rsspectfully, you miss Robinson's point.
For months, Brown, Darling, Mandelson and others have used the word "cuts" as a stick with which to beat the Tory party.
Now, at long last and far too late in the game, Brown etc have been compelled to come clean. This is the only way in which Labour could have ended the "semantic game" alluded to, a game they perpetuated as a misguided scare tactic.
Enjoy Paris if you make it, I've lived abroad now for five years and the semantic games the politicians of my host country play make even someone of disingenuous Brown's legendary ineptitude seem somewhat amateur, which of course, he is.
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Let’s reminisce for a moment: -
Labour’s 1970’s spell in office had the following consequences: -
• A broken economy.
• Enormous national debt.
• A chancellor going cap in hand to the IMF.
• Rubbish uncollected in the streets
• The dead left unburied.
• Unions out of control, hell bent on striking to bring the nation to its knees.
Now let’s look at the present: -
• A broken economy.
• Record levels of national debt.
• Quantitative easing – money created out of thin air.
• Immigrant baby boom costing the tax payer 1 billion per year.
• EU rebate traded in so Tony Blair could become EU president.
• Unions out of control, striking to bring the nation down.
When will the electorate learn from its mistakes?
• Stop voting in career politicians with no business experience.
• Stop voting in labour councils, like Gateshead council who go on tax payer funded holiday’s to Japan (between 1989 and 1992).
• Make your politicians work for you not the other way around.
• Demand value for money from all public services – stop paying huge salaries to poorly educated individuals in the public sector.
• Reclaim our British heritage. Labour didn’t ask the UK permission to turn it into a multi-cultural ghetto.
• Ensure that there is a clearly defined job description for a Politician.
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This is more about political posturing than having the economy of the country at heart.
Just another round of nasty Tory versus nice New Labour. It boils down to timing and the issue of when the dreaded axe should start to fall. The ploy is to try to defuse doubts over the dithering government until after the election.
Uttering the C-word so late in the day after such a muddled mess is meaningless when any trust has been blown away.
Isn't it more significant that this comes on the day when The Times Populous poll reveals voters want "literally anyone" but Brown as leader?
http://theorangepartyblog.blogspot.com/2009/09/voters-turn-c-word-on-brown.html
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RE: 18. sagamix
" so he's going to say "cuts" and then everyone's going to jump up and down and point at him and go "nah nah na na nah nah, you've said cuts!" - pathetic - can't stand it any longer "
You've missed the point. This is a complete (and humiliating) reversal of New Labour's position. Prior to this point, Brown has been parroting the line about "Tory cuts versus Labour investment", and I supposed he imagined that we would believe that public spending would just grow and grow - rather like Pinocchio's nose. Now it turns out that, by his own admission, he was telling a pack of lies, and there will in fact be public spending cuts under a New Labour government. Brown has been blatantly lying about public spending for months and is now admitting as much. That is a big deal. If he has been lying about something so central to New Labour's political identity, how many other things is he lying about?
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I do agree with everyone on here who thinks that the actual utterance of a single word will bring about the end of the world is right
It's complete nonsense to put so much emphasis on the use of a word (whatever it may be) What I would like to see is much more emphasis on formulating a proper plan to pay back our massive debt - and I don't care what words are used in the plan! You can make some up as long as the job gets done
Cuts will need to be made, be they Labour or Conservative or Liberal. You can dress it up as much as you like and try to spin your way out of it but we need to save money to pay back debt. It's quite simple really. There will be services that are cut or reduced and this will affect the public - however - we are in a recession! Sometimes that means we have to tighten our belts and reduce our standard of living until the good times return
What on earth can be wrong with that? Everyday folk are doing the exact same thing here and now, spending less on luxuries and paying off debt. I only wish the government would do the same thing to some degree
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83#
Laudable, but all achievable in the lifetime of one parliament, eh I-Z? If only the sheeple had the gumption, rather than responding only to the faint shrill sound of the dog whistle emanating from No10.
Maybe they'd vote for it if Peter or Katie or Kerry Katona explained it?
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@81
The thought of Balls in a position where he would be a potential leader of the country is indeed a sobering one, on the plus though by the time that Gordy leaves Labour won't be voted in again for many a year no matter what prefix they put before Labour noone will be that stupid again for a while.
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force the Tories to spell out what more they would do, or to expose that they are refusing to do so and have hidden plans.
Nick, that sounds like the old question "When did you stop beating your wife?"
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What a terribly sad comment on the state of politics when the top political story of the day is that Gordon Brown is going to give a speech in which he will be honest.
Of course that is a big news story, but it really shouldn't be.
And why on earth does he need advisers to tell him to be upfront with voters? If his instincts are to spin and obfuscate and he only tells the truth on rare occasions after consulting his advisers, then I really despair.
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Have to agree with a lot of what people above have said (Fubar Saunders and Invader Zim in particular), others, you merely have to laugh and shake your head at... (invisiblehandadvisor). Accordingly I'm skipping all the technical stuff and jumping into my main and most important point (which I'm reasonably sure you all haven't mentioned yet...
G Brown was never ever elected by the people as PM. His 3 years in charge have certainly been difficult, but it shows the flaw in our political system - that we weren't able to put in charge the right person to manage it. Gordon has been way out of his depths for the last year or so. Labour should have got rid of them when they had the chance.
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We, as a country, borrow £1pound in every £4pounds that is spent by our government.
It is utterly incomprehensible to me why Labour intend to continue this trend. You cannot continue to roll up debts like this ad nauseam.
That £1pound needs to be earned by this country or else cut or a combination of both.
If we as a country want to spend more on public services then taxes on wealth creators need to be reduced in order to stimulate good old fashioned making stuff and selling it abroad.
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At 12:43pm on 15 Sep 2009, newthink wrote:
Gordon Brown, the man that brought an end to boom and bust and replaced them with bankrupt.
Let's be fair here, boom, as promised, has sunk without trace.
It's only bust that's still going strong....................50/50 ain't bad.
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#62:
Excellent post!
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91. At 1:38pm on 15 Sep 2009, DisgustedOfMitcham2 wrote:
What a terribly sad comment on the state of politics when the top political story of the day is that Gordon Brown is going to give a speech in which he will be honest........
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Whoooah!! Hold on there, he hasn't made the speech yet. We wait with bated breath to hear in what context he uses the 'c' word and what other guff he surrounds it with to make it look like the best thing since sliced bread. What is certain is that he will use the word reluctantly and will probably need to wash his mouth out afterwards at the earliest opportunity.
We already know that Gordon and truth cannot be used in the same sentence, so anything he does say this afternoon must be taken with a very large pinch of salt.
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If the Labour party's strategy for fighting the next election is simply to spread fear about what a Conservative Government might do its a foolhardy approach. I think that the electorate is more sensible than Lord Mandleson imagines.
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Tory cuts vs Labour spend always sounded dishonest and evasive when Labour`s own spending plans showed cuts were envisaged.
However the issue was always one of timing as the blue book made clear.Mr.Brown may have assumed a level of economic literacy among his opponents which was not there,it is hard a credit an intelligent man with that degree of obfuscation when it is contradicted by his own published projections.
If it was bad faith then he will pay a heavy political price.
But timing is crucial:cut in a recession and you deepen it.Wait for recovery and you are in a better position to pay your debt.On these grounds I cannot support the Conservative party.
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@ excellentmad_hatter, post #90
"Nick, that sounds like the old question 'When did you stop beating your wife?'"
Indeed it does; although in this case, it's an entirely appropriate phrasing of the question.
Once again - cuts NEED to be made. You know this. I know this. Labour and the Tories and the LibDems know this.
Ergo, either the Tories - all of the parties, for that matter - spell out exactly what they're going to do, and how they're going to do it. Or we need to assume that whatever it is they're going to do, it's so appalling that they have to keep it secret in case the electorate find out before the election.
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Nick, you mention the chancellor's "frustration at what he calls the "game" being played by journalists over use of the "C" word and points to Mr Brown's track record of cutting departmental spending in the past
I think part of the problem for Gordon Brown is that he has seriously misread the public mood. People WANT cuts, and will actually vote for whichever party promises to make the biggest reductions in government waste.
Where the axe will fall is of course another matter. Nobody wants a reduction in front-line services such as the NHS or education. (But even here, there are opportunities to spend our tax revenues more efficiently rather than just chucking lodasamoney at a problem)
We keep coming back to wasteful projects such as ID cards and trident, but also more recent Labour nonsense such as the so-called Independent Safeguarding Authority.
Labour only understands 'Tax and Waste' which is why they will be soundly trashed at the next election. It's far far too late for Lord Mandelson to talk about spending 'wisely'. No one believes a word Labour says on any topic. This isn't just about being dishonest and the corrosive culture of spin - but true to form, Labour has once again proved itself to be institutionally inept.
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I think a bigger story would be if Conservatives actually talk about Conservative plans. These constant petty attacks about saying one word, When apparently we all know already there will need to be cuts, are to Protect them from scrutiny. Attack as a form of defence.
I've understood what Brown has said earlier as needing cuts after the economy recovers. This snipping is just nit picking designed to allow these constant attacks. My interpretation of this behaviour is that The conservatives are only interested in getting into power. They may win by default but they will only defend the status quo and nothing will change.
I hope thats better JRP@60 ☺ If not, well thats tough I'm afraid.
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Gordon Brown is insulting our intelligence. Anyone watching PMQs will have seen his attempt to taunt the Tories, positioning Labour investment against Tory cuts. Now we witness the ground being laid for a u-turn. It's so ironic that this careful seeding of the "cut" word by Darling and Mandleson is done to protect Brown's reputation - but in reality it just highlights the fact that he's changing tack and wasting everyone's time and effort to try and hide it.
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#102
Why isn't the biggest story what the people who ARE in power have been doing rather than what the people who are not in power might do?
There could still be (God help us) nearly 10 months of this incompetent bunch of fools in power. It seems that now, everything, everything they do is misguided. You cannot pick up a paper o listen to the news without reading or hearing from someone pointing out the fallacies of what Labour's dogmatic idealism is trying to force on us. When in doubt, tax it. If that dosn't work, pass a new law. If that doesn't work, pass a new law that taxes it.
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#96:
Fair point. But in a sense that makes my point all the stronger: it's a huge news story that Gordon Brown just might say something honest.
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102. At 2:10pm on 15 Sep 2009, dhwilkinson wrote:
.........I've understood what Brown has said earlier as needing cuts after the economy recovers. This snipping is just nit picking designed to allow these constant attacks. My interpretation of this behaviour is that The conservatives are only interested in getting into power. They may win by default but they will only defend the status quo and nothing will change.
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I'm intrigued by the fact that you seem to be aware of how the Tories will govern and therefore make such sweeping statements as that in your last sentence. Where do you get this information? I kow people who are Tory party members and even they don't have access to this info.
Or perhaps you are guessing?
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#63, Fubar_Saunders wrote:
Nice comments.
Referring to invisiblehand's original,
"...trying to govern a UK full of tax evaders, bankers and hedge funds who tried every possible trick to mislead the public and the government."
It does seem odd that the UK has realm over the Isle of Man and Jersey, which are allowed to continue with tax-haven practices. Just as France offers protection to Monaco - a great place for multi-millionaires. And Luxembourg made the Germans so annoyed (because money was being stashed there) that a couple of years ago you could almost hear the Panzers getting warmed up!
The function of government is to govern.
If Brown and Co wanted to stamp on bad practice by any type of finance company, they've had plenty of time to do it.
The bankers were not very forthcoming about the mess they created for themselves and eventually us.
Personally, I'm still surprised that there has been no official investigation of the Rights Issue that RBS used to garner 10-12 BIL just months before its effective collapse. It was at best tettering on the brink of mis-representation, at worst fraudulent.
Then, again, the FSA (Failed Safeguarding Agency?) hardly covered itself in glory, did it. Remind me, who created that body?
"These finacial elite-weasels like nothing more than a quick profit, no matter the consequences for the long-term stability of the economy."
I wouldn't disagree too much with that. Lots of people look for a quick buck. The majority hope it comes from the Lottery or horses. Recently, people hoped (expected) to make "theoretical profit" from buying houses. The soaring UK prices were only possible because nobody in government stopped banks sploshing out money on rediculous income-to-loan or loan-to-asset-value basis.
Gordon could have stopped that. Chose not to, because there was too much tax-take coming in.
I have to say that "financial elite-weasel" was never a phrase I expected to see applied to Tony Blair.
Remind me, just which bank does he work for, at a rather bigger than average UK income? (Just remembered. JP Morgan. Not even a UK bank. Whatever happened to "American jobs for American workers"?)
I don't think Brown ever bothered about organisations "shorting" shares. You know, borrow a bunch from a private sector pension fund for a fee, flog them and force down a market. So the shorters buy back and return the equivalent number of shares at a much lower level, taking their margin. But the Fund gets a fee and a much lower-value share asset. Any sign of that being baned in the UK? Thought not.
As Mandelson and Co say - they are relaxed about people getting rich. Me too. Hasn't happened for me, but I've friends - even close family who made a bit by working hard and being - wait for it - Prudent.
I don't like people stuffing up companies by creating "pretend value" and flogging it around the world to suckers who couldn't be bothered to check the "real" worth.
I certainly don't like bankers borrowing massive amounts (with minimal asset coverage) and passing it to others in the expectation of quick profits.
But I sort of thought that regulatory systems were designed to check whether finance houses were being sensible.
The dot.com bubble was just idiotic people flinging money at hope. The house credit-bubble was highly predictable. But this administration did absolutely nothing, zilch, to slow it. Nor try and prevent companies lending against the theoretical increase in house asset value, so people could go on holiday or buy plasma TVs or whatever.
I just don't understand why some of the highly paid, supposedly intellectual beings in government didn't see the bleedin' obvious.
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Nick,
It wasn't "rhetoric". It was lies.
You damage your own stock if you don't call a spade a spade - don't sink to Labour's own odious level or allow yourself to be duped by them.
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@ AndyC55, post #104;
"Why isn't the biggest story what the people who ARE in power have been doing rather than what the people who are not in power might do?"
Because the people who are currently NOT in power are almost certainly going to BE in power after the next general election.
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So Gordon believes he has made the 'right choices' and that they are the 'choices of the British people'
Easy to test that theory - give us an election.
Simples!!
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Not sure if anyone listened to Robert Peston's interview of Jim Chanos [I think it was] the other day?
This guy is a hedge fund manager who told the G8 Finance Ministers which banks were the most vulnerable, even before the Crunch. The Ministers weren't interested, and only wanted to know about hedge fund regulation.
Guess what? Gordon Brown was at the meeting, where the weakness of our major banks was explicitly pointed out to him, yet he (and others) did nothing. Smoking gun anyone?
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I'm relieved to hear it - listening to Peter Mandelson on the Today programme was just embarrassing. The electorate on the whole cares far less about hearing the word "cuts" than it does about seeing its elected representatives appear to be evasive or dishonest, two adjectives I would readily apply to Peter Mandelson's cringeworthy interview yesterday.
It was like Paxman/Howard-gate all over again...
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Brown and the c-word?
Cantankerous.. curmudgeon.. calumny.. calamity.. charlatan.. catastrophe.. culpable.. comedic.. capricious.. contemptible.. cobblers.. cloud-cuckoo-land??
Or charismatic commander-in-chief?
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104
"Why isn't the biggest story what the people who ARE in power have been doing rather than what the people who are not in power might do?"
Considering the fact we have an election soon, I think all parties and the state of politics in general need scrutiny.
zydeco@107
I'm intrigued by the fact that you seem to be aware of how the Tories will govern and therefore make such sweeping statements as that in your last sentence. Where do you get this information? I kow people who are Tory party members and even they don't have access to this info.
Or perhaps you are guessing?
Its amazing how the usual suspects are allowed to rant on here as much as they like spouting rubbish about Big brother and the Nanny state. Yet certain people here have to provide hard evidence. Obviously Nobody here is qualified to offer anything but our instinctive feeling about a subject or opinion. I hope this answers your question. My journalism standards are perhaps not as high as yours but I'll keep trying.
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Andy Pandy, Hate Grey, Pezzer, Monsieur S, Mind, Rockin', MWE ... you guys! ... I'm not spinning when I say this is kindergarten, I'm trying to see a way out of it - so much B/S, it's crazy and all we're doing is encouraging it - there's no need to sink to Gordon's level ... we're the Great British Public, he's just the Prime Minister - imagine, for a second, something similar in your own life - for example, your daughter's done something a bit silly - nothing too serious ... no boys involved or anything ... just she's scratched the car, say, and she's a bit ashamed and she's wondering how (or even if) to tell you - you know, of course ... and she kind of suspects that you do ... but, still, she needs to pluck up all her courage to tell you - she knows the car means such a lot to you, and you're her father, she's a little bit wary - so what do you do when she finally spits it out? - what do you do if you want to discourage her, in future, from keeping these little secrets? ... if you want to ensure that she drops all that nonsense and, you know, starts to level with both you and her Mother? - do you start screaming at her like a banshee, telling her what an idiot she's been? - I don't think so - hey and khrystalar @ 62 ... don't believe it's possible for somebody to agree more with a post than I do with that one - anyway, Paris ...
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Ok, lets be honest. The Government needs to raise taxes and cut public spending. If they tax the middle classes and the rich too much they will up sticks and leave the Government needing to raise even more taxes from the ordinary men and women of the UK. If they cut the public sector too much they will be strikes and perhaps civil unrest. It is for the Government, not the Opposition parties to explain how they are going to manage this. Labour are the ones in power. Labour are the ones who have overseen this debacle. Labour should be telling us all where they are going to cut and where they are going to raise taxes. It is the job of the Opposition parties to hold them to account. Reading some of the posts today I get the impression that some Labour supporters believe it is the Opposition parties who should be explaining what they would do. Rubbish. They don't have to show their hand yet. The Government has to show the UK what it is going to do. If they mess up either way then the country could be welcoming the Tories with open arms by next June.
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#94 Lifetimetoryboy
Ha ha ha excellent :-)
#Fubar_saunders
Agreed, ok to visit family in UK, but the society has become too oppressive since CCTVs, Nanny-state-ism, ban-mentality and all things NuLab.
I miss the beer, but Westmalle is very tasty.
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Maybe if Gordon Brown had pocket sevens then he would be a cut above the rest.
Maybe he needs a pair of crutches on sunset strip.
Who knows?
It's nice to see the archaic C word is back in fashion.
I wonder how it slipped through un-noticed?
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So if Brown quotes semantics does that mean that we have to let him off the hook?
Surely he wanted to put his name to all that success of banishing Boom and Bust, and now we are in an unqualified position of being the best placed in the queue for bankruptcy
If the policies aren't working then they need to be changed, and I see no recognition of this from the bunker
I hear from Guido that the BoE governor is playing fast and loose again and the pound is undergoing another devaluation. That is the plan then, devalue and default, otherwise how is Brown going to pay for his mistakes?
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109 FOM
Indeed. Looking at his original post and following the trail, it seems that he either has been an NL ennobled astroturfer or he appears to be one of those US style anti-capitalist-live-in-the-mountains-god-and-guns types.
But the rabid denunciation of anything contrary to the NL message as being supportive of the Babykilling Tories rather than just exasperated with the system in general gave him away.
The Alan Sugar of anti-capitalists, perhaps.
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I have just listened to Gordon Brown's speech at the TUC conference: it was an excellent speech and he explained correctly the critical moments of the past year, when difficult choices had to made in dealing with the financial world crisis. He pointed out a sensible way forward, to come out of the crisis. Brown made some mistakes in the past (mainly to have blind trust in the 'innovators' in the City of London), but he seems to be on the road to recovery now.
If madcap bankers, spivs and financial elite-weasels like Richard Fuld (his nickname was 'The Gorilla'), the final Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of bankrupted Lehman Brothers caused the current crisis, why should public sector employees pay the massive bill?
Yes, someone has to pay and some cost cutting will be necessary. The whole point is that those cuts and necessary tax raises need to be intelligently targeted, so that the re-building of a weak UK economy can continue. Above all, the government needs to rein in the wild-west financial services sector which has almost bankrupted the UK.
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Quote - The prime minister said he would "cut costs, cut inefficiencies, cut unnecessary programmes and cut lower priority budgets".
So we have it. An admission from Gordon which we already knew to be true anyway. This Government has spent our taxes in a frivalous manner with little regard as to whether the spend was actually necessary and whether or not the government was actually getting value for money.
Their only intention it seems was to keep people in work, doing very little in certain parts of the public sector and keeping their core workshy voters on invalidity benefits so they didn`t show up in the unemployment figures.
What a way to run a government. If Brown and Co were in the private sector they would have been handed their P45s long ago. That`s the trouble with government. They spend money like water and then when it all goes belly up they walk away and leave someone else to sort the mess out.
Thus it ever was with Labour. Not once have they ever left this country in a better shape than when they came to power. Its always the tories that sort their mess out and round and round we go.
No doubt in oppposition, Labour will be goading the unions on as usual which just sums up their mentality - an absolute bunch of losers.
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"I must tell you the tough truth about the hard choices"
Only one man is capable of that kind of drivel and, by means of the dereliction of their duty to get rid of him, newlabour MPs have a prime minsiter who comes out with this guff.
he's not my prime minsiter and I don't believe for a second he represents more than ten percent of the population.
There wasn;t a single word on HOW exactly the debt is going to be reduced just the usual empty rhetoric.
The only thing that should relaly now be cut once and for all is the salary of whomsoever he pays to write this self serving, illogical, badly scanning and irrelevant nonsense.
Call an election.
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More Brown dogwhistling then.
No change there. Tell the unions what he thinks they want to hear so that they keep on handing over their members subscriptions in order to fund an otherwise bankrupt political party... now that the hedgies and their other city mates have turned on them.
18 million pound overdraft the party has got, hasnt it? No wonder they dont want an election... they couldnt afford to contest one.
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Interesting that GB used the 'c' word not once, but four times, in one sentence, as if making up for lost time. Otherwise the speech was just blather and obfuscation and even the union leaders interviewed could not agree between thenm whether he had said the right thing, the wrong thing or not enough things.
As for 'this is what the people want', how would he know. He has never asked us.
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6. At 10:26am on 15 Sep 2009, invisiblehandadvisor wrote:
Gordon Brown is a well meaning man who is trying to govern a UK full of tax evaders,
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Including his own Chancellor, "Flipper" Darling, so no party political point to be scored there, I'm afraid!
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Brown was happy to waste the proceeds of the bubble (that he encouraged) but now seems unable/unwilling to accept what is required in order to rectify the situation. It is scaremongering to suggest that the Tories will 'cut front line services' - does he think they are stupid? What they will do is review all spending - hopefully including quangos and the enormous social security budget in order cut spending, reduce the debts and get the state off our backs.
From a lifelong Tory who voted Labour in 1997 and will never do so again!
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So Gordon is going to cut "in-efficiencies"!
That'll be the end of Westmonster then....
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6. At 10:26am on 15 Sep 2009, invisiblehandadvisor wrote:
Gordon Brown is a well meaning man who is trying to govern a UK full of tax evaders, bankers and hedge funds who tried every possible trick to mislead the public and the government. These finacial elite-weasels like nothing more than a quick profit, no matter the consequences for the long-term stability of the economy.
Apart from tax cuts and cutting public services the Tories have little to offer in terms of better policy which could lead to a sustainable UK economy.
Even today, after years of asking, we still don't know if Lord Ashcroft, the Tory party’s deputy chairman, is domiciled for tax purposes in the UK.
Good boy Cameron is too timid to ask Lord Ashcroft questions when it comes to tax evasion and tax avoidance, the Tories are still masters of this trade.
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Apparently multi-millionnaire Tony "I'm a pretty straighforward sort of guy" Blair is spending as much time out of the UK as possible to be non ordinarily resident for income tax purposes.
Yeah, those tax avoiding millionnaires make you sick, don't they, especially the hypocritical socialist ones!
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18. At 10:53am on 15 Sep 2009, sagamix wrote:
oh I do not believe it, the level of political discourse in this country - what on Earth are we coming to? - so he's going to say "cuts" and then everyone's going to jump up and down and point at him and go "nah nah na na nah nah, you've said cuts!" - pathetic - can't stand it any longer - I'm off abroad - somewhere where politics is rather more than a parlour game for the under fives - somewhere like Paris where I can wear a black polo neck and sit around the Left Bank with like minded people having a serious debate about serious issues - promoting the things which are truly important ... equal opportunities, affirmative action, greater respect for traffic wardens, all that ... just hope it's not too late for me
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How about Iran or Afghanistan, at least they get to have elections there!
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117. sagamix
Scratch on a car vs cuts in public spending and the future of Britain's economy...
Mmmm.
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Nick
You are so gentle with Gordon.
Time to tell it straight - might be a tad late for some honesty.
What will it take a for this lot to get the message?
So why delay having a vote!
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18. At 10:53am on 15 Sep 2009, sagamix wrote:
oh I do not believe it, the level of political discourse in this country - what on Earth are we coming to? - so he's going to say "cuts" and then everyone's going to jump up and down and point at him and go "nah nah na na nah nah, you've said cuts!" - pathetic - can't stand it any longer - I'm off abroad - somewhere where politics is rather more than a parlour game for the under fives - somewhere like Paris where I can wear a black polo neck and sit around the Left Bank with like minded people having a serious debate about serious issues - promoting the things which are truly important ... equal opportunities, affirmative action, greater respect for traffic wardens, all that ... just hope it's not too late for me
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And where the wearing of the Burkha is banned, I would have thought that would have you frothing at the mouth!
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@handsomeDrProd, post #118
"Reading some of the posts today I get the impression that some Labour supporters believe it is the Opposition parties who should be explaining what they would do."
I'm not a Labour supporter. But yes, I do believe that if the Opposition parties want to get into power, they need to start explaining what they are going to do about this economic mess we're in.
"Rubbish. They don't have to show their hand yet."
Then they'd better not be counting on my vote - or the vote of a great many other people, also - just yet, either.
Seriously... what is it about the Opposition parties - or more accurately, their supporters - they they're so damn scared of any media attention? Every time a story about the Tories of LibDems comes up here in these debates, the posts are suddenly full of partisans screaming "Bias! How dare you question our chosen parties, when you should be commenting only on the Government!!! Arrrrgh!"
We ARE concentrating on the government. That don't mean we're gonna turn a blind eye to the others. So deal with it.
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@ FubarSaunders, post #122;
"...he appears to be one of those US style anti-capitalist-live-in-the-mountains-god-and-guns types."
Just so you know - the Live-in-the-mountains-god-and-guns types in the US are usually NOT anti-Capitalist. Quite the opposite, in fact.
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The guy has no credibility, he has proved to us all that he has no financial understanding. On current course we will have £1500 to £2000 billion in borrowings by 2014, this is equal to approx 3 times the total government expenditure in a 12 month period, the interest alone will equal 50% of the current NHS budget.
If the current expenditure is not reduced immediately, we won't be talking about 10% cuts we will be closing schools,not pay teachers, cutting state pensions.The country has no real reserves ,if the market stopped buying guilts it would only 3 months before the whole system crashes around our ears. Printing money will be no solution ....
If the last 12 months teaches us anything, its the impossible can happen, we have to be at least to be seen to have a plan to balance the books, on our current course a "cash flow" financial disaster is just around the corner.
Immediate change is required and the folly of excessive borrowing to stop. The finances of the UK government need to be run with caution,if it fails the most vulnerable will be hardest hit.
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#117.
Amazing. You start a post complaining about childlike behaviour on here by creating 'hilarious' versions of our posting names.
As for comparing the damage done to the economy to a scrath on a car....
Closer to the truth would be someone joy-riding in the car whilst drunk, smashing into a line of parked cars and writing them all off. Then lying about it. Then blaming Mrs Thatcher.
So long as there's no web access, I'm sure we'd all chip in to get you to Paris.
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#111 Fingers crossed for that.
But if we don't look critically at what has been happening, Labour will be able to peddle their discredited policies even more. Subsidising failure and laziness by taking from the industrious has to stop. Once the out of work are clothed, fed, housed and have access to education and health, my taxpaying responsibilities stop and their responsibilities to society start. If they can't be bothered to get off the sofa, I don't see why I should be paying for their micro-wave chips, fags, beer and Sky sports subscriptions. "Redistribution of wealth" is a political, not an economic policy, it doesn't work and has no place in the modern world.
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The prime minister said he would "cut costs, cut inefficiencies, cut unnecessary programmes and cut lower priority budgets".
Perhaps someone could ask him what the ineffciencies, unnecessary programmes and lower priorities were and why on earth we were wasting vast swathes of money on them in the first place.
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What rubbish. What proposals have the Lib Dems come out with Robinson? All that Vince Cable has come out with are phrases like "we need to look at pensions" or "we have to look at everything in the round" or "nothing is off the table"
Trident and ID cards is spending we haven't yet gone in for, so cutting it saves NOTHING I repeat NOTHING Robinson.
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