The axe begins to swing
Now the C word - cuts - has passed the prime minister's lips, the process of identifying what will actually be cut has begun in earnest. This week the chancellor, Alastair Darling, began meetings with senior cabinet colleagues to ask them to establish their spending priorities and to identify possible savings in their departments. Sources say that the Treasury has not yet set ministers a percentage target for cuts although this might follow.
Consideration is being given to the idea that the cabinet as a whole should agree where the spending axe should fall so that, as a previous chancellor once graphically put it, all get to dip their hands in the blood.
Some ministers believe that the ID cards programme should be scrapped as a symbol of the government's willingness to take painful decisions. However, Home Office sources insist that this has not been raised with them although they are looking at ways to deliver the scheme more cheaply.
The Ministry of Defence is confident that its plans to renew Trident are not under threat but it is under pressure to replace the current fleet of four Trident submarines with a more reliable fleet of three new subs.
This political process of identifying areas for cuts follows an exercise carried out by Treasury officials over the summer. What is called the public value programme examined the scope for savings in areas covering around a half of total government expenditure. The PVP has generated ideas for improvements to police working practices, better use of hospital space and a scheme to reduce the overlap of different government spending programmes in areas of deprivation which, it's hoped, could save billions of pounds.
Some of the savings identified are to be revealed in the chancellor's pre-Budget report due this Autumn which is now likely to give much more detail about future spending plans than previously planned. Alastair Darling is said to believe that it is only when Labour has set out its spending priorities that the Conservatives will come under real pressure to spell out theirs.
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Are we to forget that Gordon Brown spent the entire summer lying to us about his intentions?
Nick: you aren't doing your job if you don't continually remind the viewing public that Gordon Brown was actively and knowingly dishonest. He lied to Parliament every Wednesday when asked directly if he would cut. He lied to the public in his press conferences.
Darling can wield his axe, but 'Labour investment versus Tory cuts' li(n)e will not be forgotten.
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What an interesting choice of timing! The TUC conference is over - so Mr Brown didn't have to lose their support by being too definite. Now the Labour Party Conference looms - and he needs to establish himself as 'decisive' (difficult!) before the party faithful.
Interesting also that the Chancellor is now planning to give more details than previously intended. Has the realisation finally dawned that the present obfuscation has not gone down too well with the electorate in general, and that all that is left is to admit the truth? Somehow, I doubt it.
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Nick
while you were busy there was a big story on spending cuts.
Apparently Straight Guy Brown had treasury papers that told him he would have to make spending cuts of 10% even though he was telling Parliament and the people that he was investing with no cuts.
Did this pass you by it seems you were imagining Cameron was in power and how you would report that?
Does lying to Parliament register so low on your political radar?
This is the biggest story around the fact that we cannot trust a word that comes out of the Liebour Government.
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Im wondering what happens when qe ends and interest rates go up? then cuts in public expenditure?, this country is in 1 hell of a mess.brownwatch 256 days.
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We really have to go to someone like Frazer Nelson to get a true picture now.
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Its a bit late in the day nick for them two start considering cuts.They have had a terrible long period of time to have orchestrated cuts fof some time now, I hold them all in con temp for administering huge amounts of spending as if money were going out of fashion, Instead of foolhardy spending at a rate of knots unknown in previous eras gone past this despicable shower need ousting as soon a it is humanly possible, And as for David Cameron he should let them slither and slide in their own muck that they have excreted and continue a stance of silence until in office if thats what the public desire.
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'4 rvp where you been ive been posting you to give us your tally of days now, to let us know when the poor suffering joe public can rest some what, after taking too much stick from a waste full addministeration.?
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Proof that socialism can never work.
Slash spending or as labour would have us believe 'make incisive cuts'.
I am curious to know what the difference between a swingeing 10% cut is against a 10% re-allignment of spending.
Spin maybe?
The fact that our politicians and more to the point our Prime Minister has to resort to word games and deceit to hide the unpallatable truth that their policies don't work should be a lesson to us all.
Except for the fact that it has happened before, it will happen again and proves that man is incapable of learning from history.
Idealism is a wonderful concept, but there is always a price. Currently heading towards £1 Trillion.
What a price? What a shower?
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If Labour axed the ID card scheme I would be impressed.
They have invested so much political capital in this sceme in the face of widespread criticism and public dissaproval.
We can hope....
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As it is alomost certain that Labour will be out at the next election, what point is there in going through the motions of trying to draw up any meaningful spending plans?
There is no time for anything they come up with to take effect and they are likely to make what is already a complex mess even worse.
Far better if they just admit defeat, accept that some other party are going to haqve to sort it out, and call an election now.
Why prolong the agony?
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I think it would be prudent to take the public value programme with the usual large pinch of salt needed when considering government communications these days. Page 8 of this week's Private Eye sets out how Labour has wheeled out announcements of efficiency initiatives on a regular basis over the last few years. The reality though, as is the way of things with this government, is that the actual delivery has fallen way, way short of the spin of the intention.
Of course, what anyone with his head screwed on would have realised by now is that discretionary spending doesn't stay discretionary for very long. No sooner is a new commitment made than it begins to be woven into existing services in such a way as for it to very quickly become impracticable to switch it off when funding becomes tighter. We surely by now should have learned to anticipate this course of events before making high-sounding commitments in times of plenty.
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What a pessimistic bunch of comments so far!
I agree with the running theme that New Labour is in electoral freefall and will be hammered by the Tories next year. However, the PM's government has always relied heavily on the ability to spend from the centre (in common with usual socialist thinking).
The recession, with the accompanying need for spending cuts, could mean a significant reduction in the size of the state. Whilst in general I agree with much of Labour's positions (on paper, anyway), the state is now encroaching on our day-to-day private lives.
Hopefully, someone could identify the massive subsidies being given to the fossil fuel industries and finally give Brown the wiggle room he's been lacking to get a green economy going.
Unfortunately, the ultimate problem with Gordon Brown is that whilst he may have convictions and that fabled moral compass, he has concentrated on international problems (rightly or wrongly, he is seen as the man who gave the world the plan to weather the financial storm) to the detriment of domestic ones. And all politics, I'm sure Nick will confirm, are local.
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Nick - it may have escaped your attention but there's a general election round the corner. You'll have to stop being a government mouthpiece with free puff posts like this, particularly when other areas of the BBC are becoming more balanced and reflecting the mood of the country.
Interestingly you've ignored your own BBC which has featured a Newsnight poll showing only a quarter of voters trusted New Labour on the cuts front - and a whopping two third disapproved of the PM. More people trust Cameron to make the right cuts.
Moreover, your lack of a post reflecting the secret treasury documents showing Brown has misled MPs and the public over spending cuts, just adds to the insult - and that was revealed on the BBC's Today programme.
In case you were dozing this is what all the fuss was about. Why haven't you reflected this in your post today?
http://theorangepartyblog.blogspot.com/2009/09/boy-george-blows-out-brown.html
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What annoys me most is the lab-our spin machine demands to be informed of the Tory manifesto be for they are in office wasn't it Blair that said wait and see?things can only get better repeat things can only get better. I will answer him now two the tune of £1 trillion If thats better i would like to see when its really bad wouldn't you.? Can we have a calculation as two when this figger will be repaid Mr brown ?Or will you be drawing your pension then With that smarmy grin on your face?
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It's always sad to see the one-dimensional thinking of New Labour.Whenever, we get into a financial crisis the focus inevitably comes round to cuts.You never seem to get a government that actively generates income in beneficial ways so that good policies can proceed.
Even when there are cuts the one thing politicians never cut is their own salaries,expenses & pensions despite the fact that they are the ones who made the decisions that led to the crisis in the first place.
Given that the election is not too far away, Gordon Brown is probably now thinking how he can take some action which appears to demonstrate that he is actually tackling the problems, when in fact,like all their policies the reality is completely different.New Labour are, after all, a party of image rather than substance.
The constant rhetoric from Gordon Brown telling us what the Conservatives would do if they got into power shows a government so short on ideas, solutions and moral fibre that they attack the opposition rather than tell us what they are going to do.
David Cameron on the other hand is keeping most of his plans ( and /or cuts!!) to himself and will resist pressure from Gordon Brown to divulge Conservative thinking to avoid giving GB a way out.He will disclose his plans nearer to the election so the public can compare his plans with New Labour's as part of the election campaign, thereby depriving New Labour of the opportunity to steal ideas and make a comeback.
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Nick -- perhaps you should suggest to Gordon B. that the first "revenue saving" would be to fire Baroness Scotland for employing an illegal immigrant. Also a hefty fine is in order as per the law.
All in all GB should also be challenged for lying in the House of Commons for the past few months. His morals are unbelievable !
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G. Brown is truly hapless as having told us (correctly) that cuts would delay or even undermine the recovery he is now trying to present his U turn as a positive act of a decisive PM. Will there be a part of the Labour movement he has not managed to alienate by the next election?
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Whats your title Mr Robinson?
Political????? for the BBBC?
Seems you've missed a couple of real stories this week , ones which I thought would be pertinent.
Never mind, us bloggers will fill you in - remember us ?
We're the ones who pay the TV tax so that you and your buddies can swan around pretending interest in what happens to the " little " people of the UK.
Seems like somebody has been telling porkies and you missed it!
Did'nt catch the wonderful interview with Yvette Cooper ( Mrs Balls) like a rabbit in the headlights / headlines?!
Missed the Tongan lady being fired too!?
Seems like us bloggers will have to keep you on your toes, give you the neccessary info so that you can make a thorough investigation on our behalf, as opposed to musing on the "what ifs "of life under any other leader.
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Interesting stuff. If they are at all serious about saving money, I look forward to an early announcement on ID cards. It's such a complete no-brainer. It's going to cost billions (certainly far more billions than whatever the current budget is) and pretty much everyone outside the cabinet agrees that it's not only useless but also harmful.
If they don't agree to scrap this, then that will be absolute proof that the are only interested in their own agenda and couldn't give a stuff about the country.
BTW, Nick, I really look forward to your answer to post #3. I always thought that lying to Parliament was considered somewhat bad form in political circles.
Ditto having an Attorney General who breaks the law. Any comment on that?
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"Public Value Programme?"
That sounds like the episode of The Simpsons in which Lisa has become President and in order to plug a huge budget deficit she plans a "Temporary Refund Adjustment," i.e. tax hike!!
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Cuts are not required for the sake of cuts BUT a systemic review. for example
The ISA (independant saftey authority) implicating 11 million people at a cost of £20+ per person just to stop 20,000 to 40,000 people from having contact with children and there is not evidence that it will actaully do that. What should happen is that ALL peodo , rapist murderers should be jailed for life, then these people would not be out on the streets to "hurt" others not just children. its a faiure of the law and order polices that has caused the so called need for the ISA.
just another example of a SNAFU_Labour policy mess costing billions but gives them control over the majority peoples lives and puts them in fear. Fear ofgetting any sort of police record that would stop them being near children. that then stops people from protesting for instance against governement policy or other legitimate political conflict with the state. A very sinsiter developement indeed.
just an example of the systemic review required or undwinding of some of the daft SNAFU_labour policies
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"19. At 08:22am on 18 Sep 2009, DisgustedOfMitcham2 wrote:
Interesting stuff. If they are at all serious about saving money, I look forward to an early announcement on ID cards. It's such a complete no-brainer. It's going to cost billions (certainly far more billions than whatever the current budget is) and pretty much everyone outside the cabinet agrees that it's not only useless but also harmful. "
According to Today this mrning Labour are claiming that scrapping ID cadrs will only save 40million as thats the "Extra" cost of them over the cost of biometric passports! They spent 18million on one report last week!
When will this goverment start telling the truth!
Tory Cuts v Labour Investment!
Can someone get the Pink Floyd Pig and fly it over the House Of Commons.
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#3
Brown lies to Parliament and the country? He does it so often it's a non-story.
Nick doesn't question this? Same again, he never has done so why expect it now?
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News Flash April 2010.....
Labour has canceled the general election, a value for money review proved that it was not a cost effective way of re-apointing Brown for another 5 years.
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To all those hoping Nick might comment on the real political stories this week... No chance Meddlesome wont let him.
You're just a Labour mouthpiece aren't you Nick? I hope you're proud of the country we live in now, it's people like you have brought us to this state.
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With posts like this, it's not hard to see where the axe will be swinging after the GE.
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Hierarchy:
Mandelson
Balls
Cooper
Brown
Darling
If the other 4 don't meddle, perhaps Darling can try to make some mature choices based on common sense and the wishes of the electorate.
What are the chances ?
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Is there any point having a comments section to your blog anymore? While you appear to attempt to balance your comments, the vast majority of contributors have just put down their Daily Mail prior to having a good old, self righteous rant. The analysis they make is thin and the standards normally biased. As to the contributors who childishly throw in Liebour and Gordon Clown: how very droll - and ironic coming from the party of Aitken, Archer and Hamilton.
The world narrowly avoided a depression this year - not a recession - and all they can think of to say is that your analysis should exactly mirror theirs. I am glad Mr Osborne was not in charge of UK finanaces this year, but if he wants any advice on what to cut once he is in power how about financial support for any university that has courses in PPE (Politics Philosophy and Economics) - they are clearly failing us.
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The Prime Minister is a liar.
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Nick - Can you do me a favour and call Andy Kerr MSP of the Scottish Labour Party and see if he would now like to apologise to John Swinney for having lambasted the SNP Govt over the cuts they are now having to propose.
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Bloggers, yes lets put all our trust in them. Afterall, I'm sure they are just nice people trying provide a fair, perceptive and impartial commentary. Obviously, none of them have a political agenda to propound or have any financial support from pressure groups or political parties - no of course not. yes, lets put all our faith in someone whose real name we will never know.
Trust me :)
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Gordon Brown tells us he will cut "unnecessary projects"
If they are unnecessary, then why do they exist in the first place?
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my political analysis, rather than what's right and wrong ... the thing they must avoid at all costs is "efficiency savings" and "cutting back on waste" ... that type of stuff ... since it brings on the slam dunk charge of why haven't you been doing that all along? - public sector pay freeeze (or job losses) is also out because it would lose a ton of Lab votes, plus the people who'd be really impressed by it are (in all probability) committed clowns who may flip their lid on a regular basis, but not their voting intention - dropping ID cards can't happen, because the Tories have long opposed it and it would give them major bragging rights just as an Election approaches - so no to that one - Trident? impossible to cancel that, I'm afraid ... it's "Man of the World" stuff and therefore sacrosanct - defence can't be cut with a war on, education is underfunded to start with ... health nobody can even hint at cutting, else the end of the world is nigh and acid rain starts to falleth from the sky - and benefits? well they are what they are, just depends how many people claim - off limits - so, pretty much boxed in on the spending side - tax rises make a lot of sense (as we most of us, on here, agree) but just before a GE? pull the other one! ... we know how tax rises go down in the heartlands, don't we? - god the whole thing is extremely difficult for the government, and in particular for Gordon Brown - I bet he found saving the banking system from collapse, and the economy from a tailspin from which it would have taken the best part of 25 years to recover, a stroll in the sun by comparison
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Nik.
I can think of no time in my past long life that I have yearned for an end to a government as much as this one. I feel our country has now been ground into the dirt by incompetent financial management, the erosion of human rights, the incompetence that allowed in the BNP, Iraq, the lies and untruths from every quarter of this nasty spin obsessed government.
Well conservatives be any better? Who knows but if Brown and his dreadful cronies had any sense of honour and cared about our country they would go now and allow someone else to try. But, instead all they are doing is working out which paletable cuts can be made now and which ones they will leave to their successors - whoever they are - who will have no option.
In my my mind such disregard for the well being of our country is treachery.
And to think I voted Labour in 1997. Never, NEVER again. Never
Nik - you must be more forceful, within the limits of fairness - and pin these people down on the facts not their spin. It is your obligation since you have access we do not.
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All fine and dandy Nick, especially following on from your snipe at Cameron over Europe. But the simple fact is Nick, that no amount of dressing up will disguise the fact that your NuLab friends have lost the plot. Year after year they overspent, not even looking at how, where and when the money was spent, as long as it kept flowing, that was ok. Warnings from all sides, IMF, LibDems and Tories alike were all brushed aside by the then Chancellor. A mere three weeks ago, the ex chancellor, now PM, was insisting that Labour would continue "Investing" I know and most of the populace know that this is complete poppycock. Lord Mandelson has successfully forced the PM to face up to some of his delusions (At what cost I wonder?). Mandelsons (For which read New Labour) strategy is blindingly obvious, look at what the other parties are saying, pick the attractive bits, and peddle it as your own, and just basically agree to anything as long as it gives you a chance to get elected, for which, some pundits laud him as a genius, I, on the other hand find him completely transparent and not a little pathetic.
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Old Forgotten can remember the last Labour Government that wielded the axe in desperation to stay in power.
Sorry Guys, It didn’t work then & it won’t work now – the die is well & truly cast.
Still, a while ago I remember a certain John Smith (remember him) coming out with an alternative budget, so why can’t we have an alternative cost cutting agenda put forward by Ozzy?
Come on guys – If you expect to become the next Government, isn’t it time you started to behave like one?
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28#
Difference is, those three went down or were made bankrupt.
Break the law in the Labour party and no-one gives a monkeys. Laws are for little people, a bit like taxes.
Its got nothing to do with the damned Daily Mail, its about whats right and proper. And for NL to claim that they are the party of the ordinary hard working families... my a##e.
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33#
Such is the perils of high office Saga. As the old saying goes, he maybe starting to regret what he wished for.
We sure as hell all are.
Not an unreasonable political analysis btw.
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31#
And of course, you would be agenda neutral too, wouldnt you?
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29.
'The Prime Minister is a liar.'
ALL politicians are liars. Gordon Brown is just a very bad one. So which is worse? A good liar or a bad one. That's what our 'democracy' has come to: A choice between the frying pan or the fire!
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32. CruisingForABruising wrote:
Gordon Brown tells us he will cut "unnecessary projects"
If they are unnecessary, then why do they exist in the first place?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Answer: Because no Government has a crystal ball they can look into when they make the decisions they do.
They have to work with the information they have at the time.
Example in point: Trident – Do we need it?
No – The world is probably safer than it has ever been & we need the money for other, more essential, projects.
Yes – With North Korea & Iran working to develop nuclear weapons, our long term security may be at risk if we don’t replace Trident.
At the very least, we will lose our place at the nuclear bargaining table if we don’t have it.
Now, ID Cards, thats a different issue...Mmm
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It is a difficult area for Labour as they have had a leader who in public has been saying he won't cut. I hope the review isn't done in a rush and that it doesn't end in a shambles.
On another tack Nick is there any news on Baroness Scotland and her application of the laws she introduced?
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#33 Saga
Excellent apraisal of the problems GB faces in even trying to propose any reductions in spending, you can add to the list the Union backlash that would result in any public sector cuts.
One comment if I may on the saving of the banking system from collapse, this is something that Brown will claim as positive action on his part however the truth is that it was presented to him with no option apart from total collapse of the coutries financial structure. Realisticly then more a fait acompli than positive action.
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I remember a moment in time when A Darling actually told the UK we were in economic trouble and if the public actually knew they'd be really
" Pi$$ed off" with the labour party.
That moment of truth came and went in 2008.
I was kind of hoping the Chancellor would have been busily scrutinising all possible savings for the last year and a bit.
Whats that awful phrase?
Ah yes!
"Preparation takes the panic out of presentation"
P.S I learn more from the bloggers and the items they point up in various news items of the international press than I have ever learned from any UK or US biased broadcaster.
Blog on!
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The current financial crisis started almost exactly two years ago with the collapse of Northern Rock. Lehman Brothers went to the wall a year ago. Over the past two years the country's finances have been in chaos and our deficit has risen to unprecedented levels. Can any of the Labour supporting contributors to this post explain why Gordon Brown has waited until now to cut "unnecessary projects"?
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Re: The world narrowly avoided a depression this year - not a recession .....
*****************************************
The niavity of some people is simply breathtaking. Government policy was a major contributor to this recession and preventing a depression has only come at a terrible cost that we are now £ 1 Trillion in debt. As a direct result of this we will now suffer a slow recovery and lower economic growth and prosperity and there will be far less money to invest in public services for years to come as a result of this. Most of the world refused to follow Gordon Brown following his high profile world tour earlier in the year and it is because of this that they are emerging from recession faster than we are. Branding people who have the sense to see through all this labout spin and not believe this nonsense that Gordon has saved the world as Daily Mail readers is pathetic.
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#27:
I have a formula to answer your question.
Think of a number.
Double it.
Multiply by 1.5.
Divide by 3.
Subtract the number you first thought of.
There's your answer.
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#31 muadib good morning
.....Bloggers, yes lets put all our trust in them. Afterall, I'm sure they are just nice people trying provide a fair, perceptive and impartial commentary. Obviously, none of them have a political agenda to propound or have any financial support from pressure groups or political parties -no of course not. yes, lets put all our faith in someone whose real name we will never know......
First question, is muadib your surname or forename?
The bloggers you refer to, myself very much included, are a cross section of the electorate sick to the back teeth of the most deceitful, incompetant and bungling administration it has ever been anyone's misfortune to have to endure. Sure, quite a few are Daily Mail readers, it's a very popular newspaper, me? I prefer the Daily Telegraph, (Henry Winter is excellent).
You identified in your post #28 three Conservative types who, quite correctly, were punished to the full extent of the law. At what point do you think Baroness Scotland, just to pick one example at random, might be asked to explain herself and then suffer the consequences of her own actions. The list of Labour types in the same (sinking) boat could go on and on.
Go back a few blogs and pick out some contributors who, before, voted Labour and have vowed never to do so again, why might this be do you think?
Prime Minestrone Brown, (minestrone being a weak soup of unpalatable vegetables just like the Labour administration), has been caught like a rabbit in the headlights, cuts were always inevitable, the difference is Cameron and Osborne were upfront from months ago. Only now has Brown been compelled to be honest. I've never been entirely certain about the ability of the Shadow Chancellor, Alastair Darling, free of the interference of Mandelson, Brown and others might have had a fighting chance without the control freak character flaws of his boss. A cut is a cut whichever fancy phrase the spin doctors choose to use instead.
The conversations Darling is supposedly having this morning with Ministerial colleagues should have taken place some time ago, the benefit of such action would not then be, as always with Labour, closing the stable door long after the horse has bolted. Brown and co. have squandered yet another golden opportunity, one of many, to be honest with people and give them an informed choice. The manner in which Gordon Brown has appeared to mislead Parliament is one reason he will be out of a job by the autumn of next year and the Labour party face annihilation at the 2010 General Election, which really cannot come quickly enough.
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new think @ 43
the truth is it was presented to him with no option apart from total collapse of the country's financial structure
well yes, but it was a genuine crisis ... a massive one ... and perhaps Gordon was an absolute rock, hard to say unless one was "there", isn't it? - I have a hunch Darling is quite good, actually - Cameron and Osborne? cool heads in a crisis? ... nothing to say they would be, plenty to indicate they wouldn't - a scary thought to be honest, that pair in charge, because this quality of unflappability ... staying resolute, hanging tough under the most intense pressure ... is so important for a political leader - the fact that Harriet Harman, for example, has that quality in spades is one of the reasons I'd like to see her as PM one day
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@ 46:
It's worth adding to your very good post that throughout the world, throughout the 'first world' countries, throughout the G7/G8 nations, all have, over the past decade, changed personnel, and therefore cannot point to a single administration or a single individual as having guided their nation into the mess we are in.
All that is, except the UK. Where Gordon Brown has held the purse-strings and the tiller for the past 12 years and therefore can rightly be expected to shoulder blame for our situation.
Only he won't. Will he?
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#28:
Please don't assume that everyone having a go at the government is a Daily Mail reader. I have never bought the Daily Mail, and if I were ever to do so in the future, I would probably buy a porno mag at the same time and insert the Daily Mail inside the porno mag so that no-one could see what I'd bought as I left the newsagent.
The fact is that a great many people from all parts of the political spectrum have become sick and tired of the current government. I was a lifelong Labour voter until a few years ago. I voted Labour at the general elections in 1997 and 2001 (and indeed many previous ones, for all the good that did). Sadly, it's now all too clear that they have totally failed to live up to the expectations that I and many others had for them at the time.
Like you, I'm glad the Osborne is not in charge of the UK finances, as on the whole I'd characterise him as pretty clueless. But that doesn't mean that I don't think he'd probably do a marginally better job than the complete bunch of wasters we currently have running the country.
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What is missing here is that the Labour Party has been in power since 1997 and the next election won't simply be about how to manage the worst budgetary deficit in living memory.
Its about time we had a reasoned analysis of Labour's 12 years in government looking not just at fiscal management but other areas such as education, law and order, combating poverty etc. Gordon Brown's record as Chancellor is questionable and his premiership has been exceptionally poor.
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Comment 28 : muadib
"As to the contributors who childishly throw in Liebour and Gordon Clown: how very droll - and ironic coming from the party of Aitken, Archer and Hamilton."
I'm sure that it's just a mistake, but for someone so obviously keen on fair and balanced commenting, it's surely somewhat of an omission to fail to differentiate between the shoddy personal-advancement behaviour of Aitken, Archer and Hamilton, and the universal, institutionalised lying and misinformation that is the central political strategy of this government. I expect that normally you would check that your comparisons are valid before making them, but on this occasion a false one seems to have got through the net.
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#22 was going to do a purple elephant for fathers some time ago ??
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We thought we were in the deep Brown stuff already, but you really know when things have gone wrong when Labour mention cuts and then start to look for cuts, the Tories should keep quiet a while longer as you cannot help but think there is soemthing labour have been hiding, like the black hole within the black hole perhaps? The real time of dread will be one week after the general election when Cameron has to tell us the truth of Labour spending over 12 years, still Brown's example can be used by politicians for years to come, socialism is a failure and Brown will be one of the biggest failures as a PM in our national history! We need an election sooner rather than later as everything the Pm touches lands us in the Brown stuff!
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#8.
I don't dispute your comment along the lines of Bertrand Russells assertion that the only thing we learn from history is that man never learns from history.
But what has socialism got to do with it? Or are you referring to the state bailing out bankrupt financial institutions?
The current mess is the fall out from the failure of free market capitalism and the de-regulated, neo-liberal economic policies followed for the last 30 years. I am not advocating socialism, but merely pointing out that tax rises and spending cuts are necessary as we all now have to pay for those astronomical salaries and bonuses earned by the financial 'geniuses'. I hardly think that was what Marx had in mind though.
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"Cameron and Osborne? cool heads in a crisis? ... nothing to say they would be, plenty to indicate they wouldn't"
Such as???? Or is that just more character assassination?
"staying resolute, hanging tough under the most intense pressure ... is so important for a political leader - the fact that Harriet Harman, for example, has that quality in spades is one of the reasons I'd like to see her as PM one day"
Oh dear God.... ++sound of open palm thwacking on forehead++ You mean theres more than one reason?
(Then again, on reflection... if HH becomes PM, the resulting alienation between the Islington Champagne Socialist set that she's part of and the rest of the nation would be so wide, you'd be able to add another 10-20 years onto the amount of time Labour will spend in the wilderness. Maybe not such a bad idea after all...)
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#49
'Harriet Harman... I'd like to see her as PM one day.'
(Sprays tea over monitor!)
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Tell you what ... Why not Offshore the entire admin functions of the HMRC, DWP, HMCS, NHS etc. Okay .. hundreds of thousands of jobs would be lost but through offshoring to India for example the cash savings would be astronomical and would easily pay off the entire national debt fairly soon.
OH !!! The government would never do this because it would be completely disgusting and immoral to do so.
Funny that no one ever challenges the Aviva's, Tesco's etc of this world whose office working population has been ripped apart through offshoring.
Regards
Roger (due for redundancy in one month thanks to someone cheaper in the world than me)
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#51 DisgustedOfMitcham2
You just summed up far more eloquently what I was getting at in my own #48
This entire blog during my time contributing has been populated by people
from both sides of the political spectrum, many of whom write brilliantly and make their points succintly.
Not wishing to embarrass anyone but, Fubar Saunders, Great Hayemaker, Eaton Rifle, Grandantidote (wherever you are I hope you're happy and healthy), John from Hendon etc.
Of course not forgetting the "floaters" the de-facto leader of whom is sagamix. (Can we call you undecideds, floater always reminds me of an unfortunate incident years ago in the lavatory at the house of my girlfriends parents).
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It's very sad to see how politics has become so degraded, with people showing utter contempt for all politicians. No doubt this explains the low turn out at elections.
The truth is, they are not "all liars" - but some of them clearly are.
Labour policies once again have ended in failure. Rather than trying to implement a change of policy to cut spending, something that Brown has never supported, he should just call an election.
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Looks like Brown will go down in history as the failed liar and deceiver.
I reckon they should scrap the ID card scheme and that ridiculous NHS computer system now. Let's face it, short of a cruel miracle Brown will not be in power next year so as the other parties have stated they'll scrap the ID card system (hopefully this NHS system too) let's do it now.
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The gamble on keeping public sector spending high when the real economy has dropped at least 10 % has failed.
For the sake of the country he needs to resign NOW.
By April 2010 our public spending deficit will be approx £225 to £250 billion, the guilt markets will begin to withdraw from the purchase of our debt regardless of our acceptance of higher charges and the UK cash flow to pay for the public sector will dry up at lightening speed.
The UK is on a edge of a cliff, we need a change of personnel now with a robust plan or we will pay for the consequences.
PS.I would not get the treasury involved in any of the forecasting as they have proved themselves to be politically influenced and without backbone, to get a deficit budget wrong by at least 30% is surely grounds for their immediate liquidation.
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Darling could save £195k by getting rid of Brown. Oh how the country would rejoice. Brown going would be just the boost we need!
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#49 saga OK I've got the broom handle out and i have tied a white handkerchief two it HARRIET HARMAN is the best thing since gunpowder invention by china,Its a pity Guido Falk's didn't succeed as we wouldn't be in the current criss we are now embedded in and Mrs Harman could have stayed at home preparing lunch as thats where she is more at home.
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#49
'Harriet Harman... I'd like to see her as PM one day.'
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Won't she need a sex change to become Peter Mandelson?
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willy @ 50
Gordon Brown has held the purse strings and the tiller for the past 12 years and therefore can be expected to shoulder blame for our situation
indeed, and that's happening (isn't it?) but wrongly, in my opinion - Wall St is to blame or (if you want an individual) its poodle, Alan Greenspan ... the man who set up the table and dealt the cards ... trouble is we can only vote for or against UK politicians, and on that score the following 2 questions (whatever you guys say) ARE relevant
(1) looking back, would it have been worse under the Tories?
(2) and looking forward, will it be better under Labour?
now I don't know about anyone else, but I'd say it's a pretty resounding YES! followed closely by another YES!
so sure, we're in a bit of a mess and Gordon is the guy who's presided over it, and he doesn't really deserve another term for that reason - would be rather unfair for it to happen, if you know what I mean - but this isn't just a game, is it? - we ought to consider what's best for the country, Willy, don't you think? ... that's how I'm approaching things anyway
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#49
'Harriet Harman... I'd like to see her as PM one day.'
------------------------------------------------------
On second thoughts.....maybe not...
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48. At 09:59am on 18 Sep 2009, Ilicipolero wrote:
Spot on!
I too rather thought the purpose of a blog was an interchange of differing views. What Muadib seems to want is that we should all blindly follow Nu Lab doctrine. Which of course, is what got us into this mess in the first place!
More of the same? No thank you very much. I have now seen three Labour Governments in my lifetime and with each one they have left the country in a dreadful state. I am still trying to come to terms with the spectacular amount of damage this particular term has done, but of one thing I am sure, the damage done this time is of a scale unprecedented in our history and I for one am certainly not going to entrust the "Repair" to those who caused the damage!
And can we please stop blaming the rest of the world for our current troubles, they weren't caused by Lehman Bros, or Northern Rock, or Iraq, or nibblenobblenoobieland, they were caused by the present government.
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#64, Telecasterdave,
The Prime Minister has said he is not in politics for the money anyway so perhaps he might set an example and carry on with no pay and no pension? That would at least be a start on savings on what he himself has called unnecessary spending.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The axe begins to fall as speculation of an April election raises it's head?
Are these both rallying cries to the supporters or the beginning of the death knell of this administration?
I also believe that the BBC charter needs to be viewed and amended if Nick can't seem to bring himself to report the Baroness Scotland episode, or the leaked treasury documents that show Brown and his cronies as some of the largest obfuscaters around.
I'd also like to know if we are due a report from the IMF or other financial body that has caused this government u-turn on CUTS
What effect will Darling's dealing have on the bond market where he is trying to finance his fiscal incapacity? Or are there problems trying to finance the debt which is causing this u-turn?
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There is another important point that #63 Hughesz has raised and that is the politicisation of the Civil Service. If, and that is a huge if, Cameron is elected he will need to have a clear out of all the top mandarins as they will be an obstacle to any form of progress; Labour has put its place men in position and they will do a Sir Humphrey on any major shift that the Tories will try and bring in.
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shoot @ 56
The current mess is the fall out from the failure of free market capitalism and the de-regulated, neo-liberal economic policies followed for the last 30 years
you, me and the gatepost may think that (and it's true, of course) but there's another school of thought which says it's down to purely domestic factors, such as the number of Quangos and Diversity Officers
fubar @ 57
character assassination? - well if over 2 year's worth of cool, dispassionate observation of the pair of them ... what they say, who they mix with, way they act ... and the drawing of logical conclusions therefrom is character assassination then, yes, guilty is me
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#34 Myhomeismycastle
All I can say is spot on. Brilliant post.
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I think it is now time to make politicians live by their own sword. Put them all onto St Kilda, with all their special advisers and experts for one year. (With all that expertise and experience they can build their own shelter...)
For each and every new proposal of legislation that passes, one month is added to their time. Two months deducted from time if majority of eligible voters are satisfied with their running of the country. Online voting once a month.
I neither read the Daily Mail, nor have any party allegiance; just desperate for some competence and common sense.
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I was just about to make a serious comment here when I read Saga's "Hattie for PM" post.
Have since then spent 10 minutes rolling on the floor laughing, scaring the dog and wasting a perfectly good bacon buttie in the process.
I need to lie down for a while.
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@ 67 Sagamix
"(1) looking back, would it have been worse under the Tories?"
Probably. It's certainly difficult to see how it could have been worse.
"(2) and looking forward, will it be better under Labour?"
I can't see any place at the top table for Labour when I look forward, so I really can't answer this question. However, the thought of four or five more years like the last twelve leaves me cold.
"we're in a bit of a mess and Gordon is the guy who's presided over it, and he doesn't really deserve another term for that reason"
I agree 100% with you there, Saga.
"we ought to consider what's best for the country, Willy, don't you think?"
Yes - I agree again. That's just what I and many of my fellow countrymen are doing when we clamour for the back of this deceitful, inept administration.
I do take issue with the first thing you say: "indeed, and that's {GB taking the blame for the way he led our country into recession} happening..."
Because it's NOT happening. GB still refuses to admit that his financial and economic policies have anything to do with the problems we face, even though the impact to the UK economy is deeper and more long-lasting than almost all of our EU neighbours, we are having it tougher than they are in the US, and the far east economies are doing much better than we are.
So sorry, it certainly won't be a 'head in the sand, better the devil you know' approach from me when we finally get the chance to vote these buffoons out.
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Gordon Brown's continual denial of the obvious reality over the last year has been breathtaking in it's stupidity. Obviously the government rescue package has to be paid for - even the dumbest twonk can see this. He has played into Cameron's hands and made a bad situation catastrophic. Or perhaps that should be he has made an ecconomic catasrophy politicall catastrophic. They will now beat him to death with his own obviously false denials.
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Dear Nick
Hopefully, news of more forthright ministerial discussions about future public spending plans will be noted by Labour's conference managers. Provision needs to be made for delegates to add their contributions to the debate in Brighton the week after next. If Labour wants to protect its core vote and reconnect to the millions more that might now be out of work had it not been for swift intervention by Brown and Darling last Autumn, it needs to think more about giving members a say in what goes in the next manifesto.
http://petergkenyon.typepad.com/peterkenyon/2009/09/saving-the-labour-party-giving-members-a-say.htm
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#61
'The truth is, they are not "all liars" - but some of them clearly are.'
And the others cover up for them!
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7. At 10:56am on 18 Sep 2009, sagamix wrote:
willy @ 50
Gordon Brown has held the purse strings and the tiller for the past 12 years and therefore can be expected to shoulder blame for our situation
indeed, and that's happening (isn't it?) but wrongly, in my opinion - Wall St is to blame or (if you want an individual) its poodle, Alan Greenspan ... the man who set up the table and dealt the cards ... trouble is we can only vote for or against UK politicians, and on that score the following 2 questions (whatever you guys say) ARE relevant
(1) looking back, would it have been worse under the Tories?
(2) and looking forward, will it be better under Labour?
now I don't know about anyone else, but I'd say it's a pretty resounding YES! followed closely by another YES!
------------------------------------------------------------
1) No - Because the Tories would not have had the same high levels of borrowing and spending commitment that Labour had when the crisis hit. They would have saved for a rainy day in other words.
2) No - Labour have had twelve years to prove they can competently run a nations finances and have failed spectacularly. There's no reason to think another five years would see an improvement - just a better level of incompetence.
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The biggest problem with *any* cuts for Labour is that, over the last 12 years, they've extended the state apparatus so that something close to 40% of UK employment is either directly employed by the state, or employment-reliant on it.
Any meaningful cuts will then mean massive layoffs in the public sector, with the associated strike action and rise in unemployment. The Tories will be similarly hampered when they enter power.
Just as Browns economic 'miracle' was mostly smoke and mirrors, based on debt, so has the low employment stats been due to an expansion of the public sector and economic immigration in the private sector.
If I were either Brown or Cameron, I would look at the huge hole Labour have dug for the UK and despair - an unsustainable public sector or massive unemployment? What a choice.
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I do find this finger pointing at Brown/Labour worrying. If anyone out there believes the Conservatives would have got us through this crisis had they been in power then you are sadly mistaken. The same economic decisions would have been taken ... resulting in the exact same state we are in now and the shadow Labour spokespersons would be vying for the head of the Tory PM etc etc etc.
Warning: Do not trust the Tories ... they will look after their own, rich will get richer, fox hunting will become legal, you will need an IQ of 200+ to even begin understanding the stealth tax system and after 10 years of Tory rule we will all be begging for a change.
This is all the cycle of polotics ...
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The Trident cuts and ID cards mentioned don't get anywhere close to the savings figures we need. They are simply the large symbolic savings which make headlines.
The last estimate I saw of UKs debt interst costs in 2012/13 was £60bn+. This is considerably more than MOD's entire budget and about 2/3 of what we spend on the NHS.
The simple fact is that labour have spent too much money over the past 12 years. They have over inflated the salaries of public servants - most notably doctors nurses and teachers - to a point we can no longer afford. Internally the government knows that there will have to be huge cuts across the board to avoid going into a debt spiral, but they would prefer that the conservatives were forced to make these cuts so they can spin it as the tories fault.
I firmly expect whatever spending plans Brown comes out with to be unrealistic, unaffordbale and entirely politically motivated.
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#67 Sagamix,
Your attempt to blame the US for everything is amazing.
Yes the US financial organisations created a lot of the products which ultimately exploded but the effect on the UK would have been minimised if our banks hadn't bought them; who was in charge of regulating UK banks - certainly not Alan Greenspan.
The troubles experienced by NRock and HBOS were not because of dodgy investments but rather they ran business models based on a never ending supply of external funds. Who regulated these organisations?
In my opinion the FSA failed this country miserably with regards to banking regulation but perhaps this was not surprising given that they were handed the job by Brown when the BOE had much more experience.
Yes, GB was not directly responsible for the mess we are in but not only did he create the system that failed us he also was reckless with the country's finances by continually increasing spending in his deluded belief that the good times were anything other than a debt driven boom.
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#8
"Proof that socialism can never work."
It worked for the private banks and now the public are paying the price.
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My #78 should have been a "Possibly" rather than a "Probably".
Copying and pasting from so many posts from these New labour stooges addles your brain a little, doesn't it!
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The best way to save the frontline services like health and education is to swing the axe towards the quangos, regulators and agencies. The total function of government with all these add ons is greater than the outcome it delivers. Government is no longer enabling, it is costing.
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#sagamix
I agree that the current financial situation for those at the bottom would have been and will be worse under the Tories than under Labour however government is not just about finance.
Under both Tory and Labour administrations going back decades we have seen outrageous personal excesses that have not resulted in an honourable holding up of the hands and 'fair enough, I made a genuine mistake, I will not carry on as to do so would bring the office I represent into disrepute'.
What we have seen in the past and continue to see today is a clinging onto power 'I have broken no rules' having to be dragged kicking and screaming from office mentallity that is bringing the whole country down. There is no moral leadership at the top.
It is all very well complaining about sink estates and hoodies and the don't work/don't care/ whatever they can get away with attitudes of those at the bottom but they are taking their lead from those at the very top of our society.
'Politics, like banking depends on something it cannot create - honour.'
'That’s a law that needs to be written in our hearts, not just in the rule book.'
The first line was said by Gordon Brown, the second by Baroness Scotland.
Will either of them do the honourable thing ? Would their replacements from the opposition do it either - No ? Thought not
Cuts - Cut from the top and then let's see the trickle down.
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With an election less then ten months away, I am wondering how much of today's discussion with the Chancellor will be based on what can be done to save their seats rather than what is good for the Country.
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60#
Very kind of you.
69#
"nibblenobblenoobieland".... Have they got any oil? Would they like to buy any UK Gilts?
Or have they got any helicopters we can borrow?
77#
I bet the dog didnt waste the buttie though....
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So as I understand it, the leaked treasury documents suggest that public spending should be cut by 10%...
This amount is equivalent to the entire amount Gordon Brown has splurged since 2001.
So, in effect, the treasury is telling Gordon Brown we couldn't afford it in the first place. No matter how many times he restated when the boom began or tried to pretend whne the bust never came.
What, exactly is the point of newlabour? They can't add up; they spend money we can't afford; they can't control immigration; they denigrate education standards and they waste our money on pet projects.
Where is the much needed infrastrucuree spending? What happened to PRescott's transport infrastructure revamp? (a bus ,ane on the M4 is all we have to show for it). Where are the power stations? How is this economy going to survive with such tragicallly shrt term, politically motivated thinking? When are newlabour going to die of shame at the mess they have inflicted upon us and stop whinging about it all being the fault of a woman who hasn't held public office for 20 years?
Blame everyone but themselves, lash out at anyone who dares to differ; indeed - launch inquiries at our expense into any gainsayer - this is totalitarianism faced with its nemesis and we are having to pay for their anger and indignation at our failure to be won over by their spendaholic ways.
This is a truly desperate state of affairs and brings us back 30 years to when the popular mantra was that governemnts were in power to 'manage decline' This is total bunkum and newlabour needs to be sent off with its bags packed for ever, never top darken these shores again with its endless agendas and doing the right things.
The political cognoscenti of the 1980s and early nineties who rebelled agaainst this nation becoming strong again and decided to spend it all as fast as humanly possible waging illegal wars and showering the public services with cash, they now know they have had their chance and completely blown it. It will never come back.
Leave now.
Call an election.
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#49 Saga
Thank you so much, after a moment of weakness in which I found myself agreeing with you I truely appreciate you correcting the direction I was going in by suggesting that HH would make a decent option as PM.....I don't think so. And as for saying that Brown was an absolute rock in the banking crisis, I think you must have a different keyboard to me as on my keyboard the c is nowhere near the r!
P.S. Borrowing for August was 16.1 BILLION.......ouch.
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I see the word 'cuts' but I keep reading paying paying paying...
UK Gov says "having paid a lot into the biometric passport system..."
Uh? I seem to remember being shafted with a price difference one could by a hi-fi with let alone a wire coil and plastic film! We're paying for it!!! Our rip-off Euro-style driving licences needs that stupid A4 paper when we hire a car! Are any of us sane???
In Germany an ID card can be shown to a town hall say, or pension offices, a police station, it's even enough when flying within Europe, even to/from the UK. I always have to bristle with NI card, licence, passport, birth certificate, etc... you name it!!!
We've paid for a lot of waffler's rubbish in the UK and so I reckon a UK ID card would be simply blank with the phrase "just a minute luv while we search for your records" printed on it. NO! Categorically NO! I don't want to see a UK ID card. It wouldn't be enough would it.
I don't want this or any future British government to spend a penny on anything because it will waste ten in doing so. I wish the British public could chuck this Dickensian establishment out and start again.
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lying toad. yawn. call an election
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can the voting public public of this once great country believe anything this government say's or will we be hoodwinked again.
do those employed in government really think they have ultimate power and can continue to wreak havoc upon those they are employed to represent.
can the people of this country soak up any more from a government hell bent on ruining whats left.
who in their right mind would support this lame duck of a government that has made bad choice after bad choice bringing this country into ridicule and almost bankruptcy, wasting money saving banks that they then hand off to overseas ownership whilst cutting finance to military upgrades whilst our troops are being killed in overseas operations.
there needs to be a change we the people shouldnt fear government, government should fear the people. if they make errors in judgement that wastes public money or brings death to anyone they themselves should be brought to book and forced to face the weight of the law just as any one would who creates illegal acts are.
will it ever be possible to have an honest trustworthy government that will do all it can for the greater good of the nation ? i can only hope so.
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#84 Sigh_Sigh
I do wish that the lazy stereotyping of tories as rich toffs could stop - are you saying that there are no rich Labour or Lib Dem supporters?
It only seems to be the left that is this blinkered - I can't remember seeing any posts spouting similar blinkered views of Labour supporters.
Regarding your last point I agree although it may not be 10 years - eventually all governments run out of steam and become self indulgent. The 1997 Labour landslide was not as a result of tory economic mis-governing, more because the public were fed up with the backbiting, sleaze etc.
The current government is guilty on all charges!
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#28 Muadib
The gentlemen you mention (Aitken, Archer and Hamilton) all resigned in disgrace. If you are looking for parity I would be satisfied with Brown following their lead...
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#28 FYI I'm, niether a daily mail record or a tory. but can think for myself and analsys problem for myself. Something the current gov does not seem to be able to do
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It's always easier to blame those currently in the driving seat than the ones who are waiting for their turn to drive (L plates in hand).
What cannot be denied is there is a lack of leadership, direction and trust in the current government and it will not be possible to re-establish belief in them. As already mentioned by another poster, it is irresponsible to say the least to sit in a meeting discussing where to cut, knowing they won't do anything until after an election and the chances of any plan being implemented are remote as the current ministers will most likely be gardening/taking up a bank directorhip by then.
Maybe it's the plethora of information now available to us in the 21st century internet 24hr news world which makes us all so fed up with the government? This could also account for the fact that each time the Prime Minister makes another U turn everyone is aware and ready to nail him for it.
We still see career politicians with no other experience on all sides waiting for their shot at the big time, doesn't look good for the future. I've said this before - there are quality people on all sides who have the expertise to deal with our problems and who would engender trust in the people, but I don't think any of them will be in the top jobs after the election regardless of who wins.
I'm going fishing...
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90#
'Politics, like banking depends on something it cannot create - honour.'
Did he really say that? :-0
Blimey. Talk about brazen chutzpah.
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84 Sigh_Sigh
"I do find this finger pointing at Brown/Labour worrying. "
========================
Why ? Labour are the government and he is the prime mimister, and they are responsible for most of the decisions which have been made which have got us into our current situation - and I am not just talking about the recession. Given the hopeless ineptude, incompetence and irresponsibility of this PG Tips advert of a government, I think we are all perfectly entitled to do some "finger pointing".
Followed by :
"If anyone out there believes the Conservatives would have got us through this crisis had they been in power then you are sadly mistaken. The same economic decisions would have been taken ... resulting in the exact same state we are in now "
======================
I somehow don't think that the Tories would have created and built up such massive publicly funded industries which cost so much and achieve so little. eg Human Rights Industry, Political Correctness Industry, the Asylum Industry to name but a few.
The whole level of public spending has been unsustainable for almost the entire duration of the government. I think we all knew that it had to all end sometime, and there would be tears when it did.
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More good news for New Labour and Gordon Brown.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8261875.stm
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Oh, and another thing:
Why the heck are they only looking at this now? Haven't they known for at least a year (probably longer) that we are in deep financial trouble?
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dice @ 86
we certainly caught the bug ... got swept up in the mania more than any other country ... but the Global Credit Crunch (which, in turn, triggered the recession) was manufactured in the USA - it may be that a different regulator in the UK could have stood in the way of the most powerful (and unidirectional) set of economic/cultural forces we've seen in generations, but I very much doubt it - Canute is more the image - foolishly lax monetary policy from the Fed, crazy levels of personal remuneration on offer to the players, the securitisation scam and collusion of the ratings agencies, the explosive growth of OTC (or should we say "under" the counter!) credit derivatives - it's taken us down - and of course, needless to say, the wrong people are getting hurt - just think, Dice, on the 23rd floor of a Wall St skyscraper some intense young spark dreams up the fabulous wheeze known as "credit default swaps" and a decade later, thousands of miles removed, an equally intense (but in a different way) Council Parking Supervisor in Barnet, North London has to accept a pay freeze, or at best a below inflation rise - galling
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#98
Point taken but come on ... 99% of Tory MP's past and present are Oxford/Camb educated and probably got there due to their parents oversized wallets and/or links to the aristocracy. Broadly speaking, I would imagine that if such a statistic was available the IQ's and all round intellectual strengths of non tory MP's would be considerably higher than there Tory counterparts. However, none of this really matters as there is a Sir Humphrey who will always be the real person making decisions ... how is Lord Mandelson?
I'm getting off the topic somewhat now ... back to 'cuts'.
Cuts = job cuts yeah? This is the bottomline here and lets not beat around the bush. Yes, we can cancel ID cards, yes we can stop building a road or two, yes, we can stop further investments but by cutting all these we directly create 'jobless people. These jobless then claim benefits and after 6 months will be gently pushed back into the work place or they lose their benefits. Exacly what jobs will they be pushed into when there are no jobs (slight exaggeration I know).
It's a mess ... and thank the lord we can all rely upon nice but dim Cameron to clean it up ... eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek.
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#87 actually proves my point
Socialism is a wonderful ideal that has all the promise of wonderful living and end to poverty and care for our fellow men. But consistently fails to take into account the fact that many humans are also greedy opportunists.
So it can never work.
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Here's an idea.
We know GPs have down extemely well with the government's poor management rightly or wrongly.
Let stop all those 'target driven' extra payments i.e. £20 'extra' or so for just asking if you have had a recent cholesterol test, cervical smear, foreign travel vaccination and the like. These are things that any professional GP should be doing anyway without having to be bribed - but if they want to be treated like a blue collar worker then we should pay them accordingly.
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It's nice too see that Gordon is having a civilised chat, over Tea and Sticky buns, to determine where to make efficiency savings.
In industry we have neither the tea nor the stickies nor the option when it comes to making savings.
JFDI is the order of the day.
A target is set for cost saving and you must achieve it.
It is non negotiable, if you want to keep you job.
We take tough decisions every day.
We deal with it.
Get real Gordon or get out.
If you hadn't spent your whole adult life in the "career politician sausage machine" of looney labour then maybe you would have understood the gravity of the situation earlier.
I didn't study politics and buy a ticket on the labour gravy train, I studied electrical and electronic engineering in addition to computer technology.
I didn't spend my life sucking up to the unions or the Labour political activists, I got a job in industry.
I have real world experience, a real world education, real world skills and real world achievements.
What do you have Gordon?
You have nothing.
You may hate Thatcher or love her, but she had a real world education working as a research Chemist and Barrister.
Merkel is a scientist too, she studied Physics.
And we have Brown - he studied politics.
What a joke.
Get real or get out.
Gordon, I sincerely hope that fate will cut your thread very soon.
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Thank you #90 BobRocket, so well said.
"There is no moral leadership at the top.
It is all very well complaining about sink estates and hoodies and the don't work/don't care/ whatever they can get away with attitudes of those at the bottom but they are taking their lead from those at the very top of our society.
'Politics, like banking depends on something it cannot create - honour.'
'That’s a law that needs to be written in our hearts, not just in the rule book.'
The first line was said by Gordon Brown, the second by Baroness Scotland.
Will either of them do the honourable thing ? Would their replacements from the opposition do it either - No ?"
I would love to read each party's leader's comments on this. No comments to include insults toward nor mind reading of any other politician. Maximum 250 words.
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@ 98
it only seems to be the Left that is blinkered - I can't remember seeing any posts spouting similarly blinkered views of Labour supporters
quite a funny post ... guess you haven't seen all those ones which assert that the Labour vote is made up of people on benefits, or in public sector "non jobs"
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From my own experience, it seems the some public services have gearing themselves for 'cuts' for some time now. This should hardly be a surprise to political journalists, (maybe its not, or my experience is out of the ordinary).
I just do not understand why our news media play the politicians propaganda game. Why not 'out' the numbers? Lets have a grown up discussion about tax and spending! At the moment political debate resembles the school yard.
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Engineers and Scientists of all disciplines lay the foundations for the Future.
Politicians, Unions and Bankers are the ones that dig it's grave.
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Brown probably needed to lie about Investments instead of cuts because
A he would have not have had any idea how big a hole he as got the country into.
B He of all people who not have a clue as to what to do to remedy the chaos he has caused.
Other than yet another whole raft of Government un-necessary spending and another huge increase of taxation against the prudent and productive by deception (stealth taxes)!
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Nick:
Yes, the axe is finally came out of the shed; Good news for the Labour Government, that should've done this years ago!
But, the time is just a bit concerning ....
=Dennis Junior=
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103#
You certainly wouldnt have the tripartite system.
You wouldnt have had the BoE/MPC setting interest rates.
You wouldnt have had gold reserves being sold off at the bottom of the market.
In fact; with the exception of the social engineering/vindictive stuff like IR35 and the rape of the pension funds, 1997-2001 probably wouldnt have been much different, all told, as GB committed himself to following what were effectively conservative plans for the lifetime of the first parliament.
The other external factors, ie the banks, CDO's/derivatives, etc: Difficult to tell. Depends on what regulatory framework would have been in place, whether the BOE on its own could have handled it. We'd still have had the tech bubble bursting in 99; we'd still have had 9/11. As to what effect private equity and the hedgies would have played; probably not much different.
We would probably have had Iraq and Afghan, still. The forces would still be in a state.
I doubt the civil service would have ballooned to the size that it has. Chances are education and health would have stood still, with the private sectors nibbling away at the states offerings.
PFI would still have been around as it first came up under Major anyway... Transport? Hmm. Doubt it would have been much better, but arguably, hardly worse. Law and Order? Heaven knows. Would we still have had the housing bubble? Well, if the problem is one of supply and demand, had there not been reform of the planning laws, then chances are, yes, it would still have happened. But, the onus would have been on the chancellor to take some form of action, rather than giving the control - and only one control - to the BOE.
The uncontrolled immigration certainly wouldnt have happened. The Social Chapter wouldnt have been signed. No minimum wage. No Working Time Directive.
I'm trying to be fair here. In my very humble opinion, chances are, it would possibly have been as bad under the tories, had they continued to be in power from 1997. But thats just purely on a what was the policy at the time and drawing that time line forward.
Had they had no effective opposition for the best part of 30 years though, theres no imagining what the political landscape would look like now and how many other things would or wouldnt have happened. Thats all down to conjecture.
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@106 saga
It's all very well repeatedly referring to the credit crunch as the cause of all our problems, but that's just labour spin.
We already had an unsustainable bugget defecit before the credit crunch came along and were heading for a fall. I hardly think it was the americans that made this government pour money down every drain they could find with a whole host of social engineering experiments.
The public sector is out of control, the recession has exacerbated that problem and action needs to be taken.
None of the proposals I have seen form any party come anywhere near close enough to the cut in spending required. The state needs to be slashed across the board asap if there is any hope of saving this country. The interest on the natiomnal debt is already comparable with our defence budget.
What happens when QE/money printing stops and the inevitable interest rate rises happen? We are in very deep trouble and are long past the stage where party point scoring about how "it would be worse under the tories" makes any difference.
Nothing Labour have to say has any validity, they are the idiots who have brought this country to its knees with their surveillance state that employs nearly half of those in employment.
And yes the cuts have to involve job losses in the publis sector, heavy losses, thats what happens when you employ people who wouldn't get a job in teh private sector just to keep them off the figures.
As far as I am concerned we are doomed and much though I cant wait for Labour to be ejected I cant see the Tories being able to repair the damage thats been done. I for one dont intend to stay around to pick up the tab for socialist stupidity. In the interests of fairness perhaps the tax increases should be limited to all those who voted Labour?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Blimey, Nick, you are a bit previous with your enthusiastic support for our 'government' aren't you?
Barely have you (barely) reported on their having been rumbled in their lies regarding 'Tory cuts versus Labour investment' than you are promoting 'government' cuts as a fait accompli!
Business as usual I see!
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106. At 12:40pm on 18 Sep 2009, sagamix wrote:
dice @ 86
......... on the 23rd floor of a Wall St skyscraper some intense young spark dreams up the fabulous wheeze known as "credit default swaps" and a decade later, thousands of miles removed, an equally intense (but in a different way) Council Parking Supervisor in Barnet, North London has to accept a pay freeze, or at best a below inflation rise - galling
------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you think I'm going get upset because of a parking warden's pay freeze - forget it. That goes for parking wardens anywhere!!
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#67 Arise Sir Sagamix , understand you are to be honoured for contributions to blogging by Brown in the new years honours list.
As for lady Har har for PM, well thatcher beat her to it and that just rubs does it not, amd taking a failed UK under old labour to a success by 1997 to be recked by ZANFU_Labour. And as HH said there are not enough airports in the country for all the men to leave if she become PM, an unfortunate slip in jest that is almost 100% correct.
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@112 saga
lmao, your post was funny too!
That's exactly what the labour vote is made up off, along with those poor souls without sufficient intelligence to see through the lies and compare what is said with what happens.
Do some analysis on teh demographics of labour heartlands. There are a higher percentage of people employed in teh public sector and on benefits.
Labour were supposed to be the party for teh working class but now they just pretend that. I just dont have the words to describe my level of contempt for these people and I wont bother trying so there's less excuse to refer me!
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106#
So its financial chaos theory, then?
Saga, you said you worked in Front Office... so you'd have some idea, wouldnt you, just how many of these securitized products were also developed and sold over here? And, you'll have some idea also, as to just how much tax was raised in corporation tax, Income tax, CGT, windfall taxes, etc by the then Chancellor Of The Exchequer?
Or is your memory failing you a little again?
Youre being disingenuous (for a change) if you think you can still peddle the "it all started in America" line....
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118. At 1:13pm on 18 Sep 2009, I_Despise_Labour
Let the Blairites pay the Blair tax.
Let the Brownites pay the Brown tax.
Let those of us who voted for neither of them look on with pity.
I agree wholeheartedly... tax the inmates of the asylum not their sane relatives.
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@107 class warrior (sigh sigh)
By god you're right. What a calamity, those damn tories have been educated at the top 2 universities in our country. Lets make sure we have a bit of positive discrimination and have an equal number of people "educated" at in inner city comprehensice school...
A labour supporter talking about IQ's, oh the irony!!
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It's time to axe the bloated, income and wealth consuming public sector by a minimum of 20%........ to allow the wealth creating sector spearheaded by small business to get us out of this mess!
Down with the state! Hurrah for free enterprise!
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I do like the idea of a basic state rather than a bloated state trying to do everything for everyone and involved itself too much in peoples lives!
We have the no-frills airlines..........why not a no frills state sector?
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After trying to deflect attention away from Brown's lies about giving the people a referendum on the Lison treaty by some inane ramblings about Cameron. No mention today of Brown's lies regarding cutting public spending. The BBC really is an absolute disgrace, we pay our licence fees and we want unbiased news reporting. I am forced to pay my fee, you take the money and enrich yourself with it, I want unbiased news. You should not be Nu-Labour's propaganda mouthpiece.
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#33. At 08:59am on 18 Sep 2009, sagamix wrote:
"my political analysis, rather than what's right and wrong ..."
Actually saga, I think you painted a good picture of Brown's political problems.
" - god the whole thing is extremely difficult for the government, and in particular for Gordon Brown - I bet he found saving the banking system from collapse, and the economy from a tailspin from which it would have taken the best part of 25 years to recover, a stroll in the sun by comparison"
Saga, I'm not sure he has saved the banking system from collapse - but I hope that the various international efforts eventually work.
Biggest issue is that, over 10 years, this government has made very expensive efforts to poorly implement (deliver!) half-baked laws and regulations, based on headline grabbing initiatives.
That's where a lot of money has been wasted (my opinion, of course).
Northern Rock and HBoS got into trouble because their business model absolutely depended on massive short-term finance to back up long-term loans. The FSA (Brown's creation - a watchdog designed with tonsilitis so it couldn't bark very loudly, and only two teeth) seemed to be aware, but did nothing.
So Brown is now having to unpick some rather stupid things that he claimed were "real growth"...
My old man used to say "Never start the smallest thing, till you think what the end may bring".
Turning up the tax-take hosepipe to full throttle was a fairly BIG thing to do, so I always hoped somebody amongst the hordes of Special Advisors would have thought beyond tomorrow's headline...
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#74 whom pays for the qaungos and diversity advisers ?.
think its going to be my childrens children that will be paying for that.
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Cuts in Public Spending are NOT necessary. Simple reason is: If the Government wished they could create the money they need themselves to spend on public services, instead they tell us they need to borrow more or raise taxes. Neither is required.
for a usefull resource for information pertaining to this do a google serach for "money reform UK".
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What is so annoying about this governments attitude is that you'd think there had never before been a recession.
They cannon separate the recession from the banking crisis and they wonder why people don't want to borrow money. Some of the ecomomists are just as bad.
We've had several housing crashes high unemployment figures high interest rates bankrupcies company failures and so on so have they learned nothing from this.
Now we need support for new businesses to replace those that have been lost employers helped financially to create new jobs and cuts in public spending. It is the same formula used during any downturn. Surely they can't have lost the paperwork? Or has it been shredded now we the computer running the world. Unfortunately the computer can't yet think or be creative on its own.
The banking crisis is something else. Who can understand the thinking behind Lloyds taking over a basket case like HBOS and expecting it to be straightforward. Had the UK done the same as the US did with Lehmans Lloyds could have picked up what it wanted as did Barclays with Lehmans and not have left the taxpayer with such a massive undertaking.
It is the banking system that will drag us down not so much the recession which we have always found ways of bouncing back from and still can.
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@125 zim
Yes. I can just about forgive all those who voted Labour in 1997. The tory government had run it's cause and was justifiably unpopular (although with hinsight their sleaze doesn't look quite so bad nowadays). But since that time the smoke and mirrors didn't exactly obscure the damage labour were doing for anyone with clear vision!
Hopefuly Scotlan will have their vote, become independent and that could be the death knell for Labour and the start of an english parliament. They need to be wiped out forever, otherwise they will
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I agree with DCs comments, how long has the recession been going on for and only now does our government decide that talks need to be taken.
However, these are just talks, then taxpayer money will need to be spent on an enquiry and a review before our government will decisively acknowledge anything and then once the report is out the government will claim the report is a load of rubbish and will not follow any of the instructions laid down.
Along side this, we bring all the ministers together where one suggestion after another will be shot down by the minister threatened with possible cuts, which will become very messy while our PM lies to us and will tell us that everything is progressing smoothly.
It's taken GB this long to work out that we have far too many government institutions with overlapping responsibilities, the public could have told him that one, which shows how useless he is in the job.
What's all this about cutting only what's unnecessary and not hurting front line services, it's this Labour government who spent unnecessarily in the first place without creating a great improvement from what came before. And all this under GB, who did such a great job of spending unnecessarily and creating an empire of quangos and waste and now here he is telling us he's only just realised that he needs to be more efficient and effective in terms of spending. Front line services have been facing that line for years and it's only just now our own government realises that they should do something to control their own spending. I agree with DC on this one, they have lost all control and have no idea what they're going to do, this is just all talk that will most likely lead nowhere because GB is an indecisive person that continuously makes up his own version of things through his extremely hazed vision (it must be that bad for him not to have noticed the real world the rest of us live in) and now all of a sudden he switches his story and thinks everyone will just happily believe him. This isn't Big Brother Britain where the moment the establishment change their story everyone believes them, the public know what's going on because we all face the real world every day. And after all, what states the situation better than being reminded of the fact that the greatest chancellor ever in British history brought our country to the worst economic recession for decades.
Every day, we all have to make tough choices that affect our lives and the best the government can do after this long is to say that they're going to talk with each other. Shouldn't the talking have taken place a long, long time ago and this clearly shows that the government live in their own galaxy far, far away.
GB, bring on that election if you're man enough.
One last thing, why is it that when cuts are going to affect us all in the country in one way or another, why is it that the general public have no say in the matter and it's down to people like them who get to make all the decisions that continuously destroy our lives while they get paid above average wages to make stupid decisions.
If we're to punish bankers for risk-taking and link pay to long term success for their companies, why not do the same for politicians?
GB, you get paid nothing.
Now let's CUT the CRAP and bring on a decent portion of truth for us people without it going through the Chinese Whispers games I was involved in as a child where one thing went in and something completely different came out the other end.
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Nick.
The Big question from now onwards is: Where are the Cut's going to be made ?, since all we hear from the Conservatives is that there will be Cut's without anyone stating which Departments of State they will slash spending from, so "Call-Me" Dave is showing himself to be all talk and no substance when it comes down to actually having to properly tell the Voting Public what his next Conservative Government are planning to do should they win the next General Election, for it is very easy for Dave to attack Gordon Brown's Leadership without showing any Leadership in return by outlining his own Partie's Policies, and Cutting agenda.
In truth, all the Political Parties are running scared of setting out this far from the next General Election as to just where any Cuts in Public Expenditure will really fall, not because they already have sized-up their each ways forward to there preferred options, but because they all know full well that the Cure for the cuts will kill off their chances of winning the next General Election, should any of them be the first to hype-up this situation, so therefore until the very last minute we will still be seeing Punch and Judy Politic.
The main problem with any future Cuts will be that where ever they should fall, and in which ever areas are hit, we will end up with a siezed-up U.K. Economy, for as soon as you make any major Cuts to any Government Departmental Budgets this will have a knock-on effect throughout all other Areas, for the only differences will be is the direction of travel around everyday Society until we are all effected, for one way or another there is no getting away from this melt-down that is coming to every corner of main stream U.K. society, where we will continue to have more qustions than answers about how do we turn around a Bankrupt Britain, while the Rich will get progressively Richer, and the Poor even Poorer.
This will lead to a further divide between the Classes, whereby the Middle-Classes will find themselves to be once more, no better than Working-Class, and the Rich will have to be hidden away behind tight security, due to the Street Riots that will come about due to the impending Government Public Spending Cuts, which can and will only add to the many more Millions of working age People that will be made Unemployed, for an un-known long term.
All in all the future for the U.K. looks very bleak indeed, for until we develop a replacement for the desire for Money, we will continue to be trapped in a Bankrupt Capitalist Society where only Money is peoples everyday God, for no one in their right minds in the future will sit by and watch Bankers, and City Workers take massive Bonuses while the rest of the Country are left to scrimp and scrape.
The only way out of this mess will be once we all realise that we all need the same Money too live on, in a fairer distribution of Wealth, and until that day comes we will simply as a Nation will be neither getting, or going nowhere fast.
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#80 PeterKenyon wrote;
"If Labour wants to protect its core vote and reconnect to the millions more that might now be out of work had it not been for swift intervention by Brown and Darling last Autumn"
Brown loves this argument, which of course he used at the TUC (though he only claimed half a million). How do you calculate these "millions" by the way?
If it's calculated by comparing Brown's policy to an alternative strategy that would have let the banking system collapse you may be right (though no politician to my knowledge advocated that). There was a political consensus around the recapitalisation of the banks, though of course there were arguments over detail. However, I'm not sure the details made a great deal of difference to the current rate of unemployment.
Nor have I seen the evidence that cutting VAT on imported goods made much difference to employment.
Labour isn't working again.
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Despise and Zim
"In the interests of fairness perhaps the tax increases should be limited to all those who voted Labour?"
Ah - so should the redundancies in the 80s have been limited to those who voted for Thatcher?
It's a democracy - accept it and grow up
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It is hard to know where to begin:
Group polarization:-when like minded people congregate their views become more extreme.
Knowledge of economics and sociology?
Economic history and the dynamics of institutional change?
Elementary cause and effect?
Loudness: The idea that the loudest voice carries more authority?
Partisanship: The lack of dispassionate analysis which can change minds.
Ignorance may be a gift of God,but like all gifts it should not be abused.
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Thatcher
"We have the no-frills airlines..........why not a no frills state sector?"
Because with airlines you have a choice, frills or no frills, with the state it's one size fits all. Surely a Thatcherite understands the difference between the private and public sector?
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Sagamix
If nothing else you are consistant.
Someone points to the banking crisis.
You blame the Americans.
Someoone points out that there was lack regulation imposed by Brown.
You say no-one could have stopped the Americans.
I'll point out that there seem to be lots of countries who fared far better than us, so you can't carry on absolving Brown.
You'll come up with another excuse and so it will go on.
When all esle fails you'll trot out something about "Tory Toffs".
How you can claim to be 'floating' when you have the millstone of Brown's legacy chained round your neck goodness only knows.
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Bryhers,
In response to various posts recently:
Brown's reversion to Keynsian economics might be more convincing if he had acknowledged the need to repay debt during the good years. Actually his argument seems to be that when times are good governments can afford to borrow more, and when times are bad governments need to borrow more. Hardly Keynes, and a good illustration of how an economic theory is perverted for political gain.
You don't describe the Conservative Party's response to fiscal stimulus properly. It is to be in favour of fiscal stimulus at the global level, but to recognise that it is easier for countries with low levels of debt to provide it. This leads into the argument that perhaps the most serious economic problem at the moment is the trade imbalance between the West and Asia, particularly between the US and China. The global economy would be healthier if the US and the UK borrowed less, and Asia spent more. The current situation is unstable, and we should be preparing for it to unravel over time.
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fubar @ 124
Saga, you worked in the Front Office so you'd have some idea, wouldnt you?
yes, I know well that of which I speak ... just for once! ... and also a "yes" to both your points - the City was a junior partner to Wall St, but a very significant one, and the tax take was very tasty indeed for a certain Mr Brown - nevertheless, it DID start in America - the fact Gordon clings to that a bit doesn't make it untrue
IDL @ 123
do some analysis on the demographics of Labour heartlands. There are a higher percentage of people employed in the public sector and on benefits
right, I have, and guess what? it looks like they won well over half of the total seats contested ... pretty big "Heartland" n'est ce pas?
fairly @ 130
my old man used to say "Never start the smallest thing, till you think what the end may bring"
I like it, wish I had a Dad like that! ... mine's always saying stuff like "Oh for God's sake, turn that rubbish off"
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How about saving the millions we pay to the EU every day.
We don't need to be in Europe to trade with European members.
Lets be honest though, will anyone really believe what Brown & Darling say..........Labour lost the electorates trust a long time ago and Brown has been caught lying again but over cuts this time.
Call an election and lets get a new government.
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Why speak of cuts?
Is it knife-crime Britain we hear of?
Or grey Stab-in-the-back incisions
by politicians whom insist on a title -
Lord or Lady - mayhaps that it is disputable?
Why speak of cuts?
Too late, after the tree has already died
Too late, before any cuttings could be taken
Too late, when all the fruit has already been eaten without saving any of the seed...
Why speak of cuts,
except that empty minds have nothing else to speak of
And the emptiest minds are those whom have silently worn the laurels
of fiscal glory delivered by the Economic Inclusion of Asia,
And never once envisaged this future?
Why speak of cuts,
Unless you are a surgeon held in esteem by your peers
For a patient faced by such newfangled slashers
Would hasten to the NHS with their fears.
For cutting back is best done by those whom have practised it always, and even a gardener could explain that in less words than are wasted on the Internet!
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138. At 2:06pm on 18 Sep 2009, Laughatthetories
You may be able to laugh at the tories.
But labour have made most people cry.
Take your head out of the sand.
See how history has been repeated.
The late 1970's witnessed an economic collapse fuelled by labour lunacy.
The late 2000's now see the same lunacy fuelling a similar collapse.
3 Trillion squandered.
Economic recovery only possible by ridding the nation of Labour's fat beurocracy.
Prepare for the next Tory governement.
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"Sorry, I dont normally resort to the vernacular, but.... what a load of old cr*p. Utter, utter, utter cr*p."
Thanks Fubar , saved me rattling on about the politics of envy and ignorance again!
"My old man used to say "Never start the smallest thing, till you think what the end may bring".
Never heard that before Fairly, like it!
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Nick Ainsworth MP our latest failed Labour Defence Minister!
Foolishly believes we can reduce our present or future Tridenent submarine commitment to three submarines.
Showing clearly he has the same limited numerical prowess of that other proved New Labour numerical illiterate Gordon Brown.
Our ultimate nuclear deterent can and only works if it's operational component is totaly beyond the reach of destruction by any enemy.
At present we always have one nuclear submarine deployed at sea continuously for up to six months!
Before it returns to base it is essential the replacement is already on station at sea so as itself to be beyond harms way. Therefore the hand over time can be as much as three months. Tieing up any two nuclear submarines for that period.
A nuclear powered submarine that has to sustain it's crew and remain on station submerged for six months. Will be non operational on it's return to base for several months for a total exhuastive refit!
The fourth submarine has to be used as a training ground for new crew members or refreshers courses for seasoned crews. To provide the skills needed for navigation when no shore contact is possible for months on end. The generation of power using a nuclear power plant and the engineering aboard a submersible war ship.
Requires the use of a fully operational submarine for months on end as an ocean going training station.
A Minister of such minimal interlect or utter lack of practicle experience of anything such as Ainsworth and or Brown might well imagine!
We can have an enemy proofed nuclear deterent with only three nuclear submarines of the present or future marques.
And to hell with the safety and security or the British People! Let alone the crews whose interest would clearly not get a second thought from the likes of Ainsworth or Brown!
Fortunatly for Britain and the World neither of these two bumbling, bullshitting, granstading exhibitionists.
Will be themselves be in post long enough to destroy our nuclear capability in the way they are now plotting.
For what ever they propose or inact in post during the last ineffectional few weeks of this calamatous Government.
Will clearly be swept asaide by the incoming hugely capable and utterly responsible Tory Government!
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All the zeal of the convert
Immune to shame, can't even spell hypocrite.
Anyone else would die of embarrassment first.
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Questions I would like to see asked in the light of the fact '..cuts are needed in "unnecessary" spending...'.
Why was this never dealt with before?
Did we have so much money we could afford to throw it around willy nilly? Was no one in control of the countries finances?
And if yes why is that person still in their job?
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if the axe is going to fall , will it be on Gordons'neck?
let them eat cake !!!!!!!
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#106. At 12:40pm on 18 Sep 2009, sagamix wrote:
"dice @ 86
we certainly caught the bug ... got swept up in the mania more than any other country ... but the Global Credit Crunch (which, in turn, triggered the recession) was manufactured in the USA - "
Saga,
I think the history shows that quite a few of the clever wheezes to present doubtful "assets" as really valuable were actually dreamt up in the gleaming towers in Canary Wharf (and other UK sites).
The "sub-prime" offerings were part of Democrat Bill Clinton's (understandable) desire to allow poorer people to get on the housing ladder. I absolutely accept that his (and Republican George Dubya's) supervision of US finance houses was appalling. Just as I believe that Brown's supervision of UK finance houses was totally toothless and ineffectual.
Houses prices rocketed in the UK because banks were allowed to lend rediculous sums on a rediculous basis. Demand (if you mean people who want vs existing supply) hasn't changed. But prices have fallen, because that stupidly loose cash isn't available.
I never understood Brown's focus on "complexity".
There are so many tax-credits, specially targeted benefits, etc., that I doubt any minister would be able to tell you exactly what somebody with a need can get access to. If ministers don't understand the laws/ regulations they introduce (witness Baroness Scotland) how on earth are others supposed to?
(Latest I read was that the Baroness employed somebody "in good faith". I don't recall that being an acceptable argument in cases involving small companies around the nation. Do you? Any idea when she may resign?)
It's just a waste of money when you have to hire people to explain (or try to) things that a lot of people can't grasp - and (because we still have so many illiterate and innumerate citizens/subjects) could not work out how to complete the multiple forms. In fact, even fairly literate people find it hard to work through pages and pages of intrusive stuff.
I still don't understand why the Minimum Wage (which I actually quite like) means that somebody - presumably with enough to live on in a minimal way - still falls into the taxable category if they work a 40 hour week. Do you?
I sort of hope that one non-charasmatic Scot (Darling) can do a bit to rescue us from the history of another non-charsmatic Scot, before they both step aside for a decade or so. At least he hasn't got the smarmy Balls combo breathing down his neck.
I'm not exactly entranced by some of the opposition light-weights. But I'm equally lacking in belief in the existing light weights.
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107. At 12:46pm on 18 Sep 2009, Sigh_Sigh wrote:
#98
Point taken but come on ... 99% of Tory MP's past and present are Oxford/Camb educated and probably got there due to their parents oversized wallets and/or links to the aristocracy. Broadly speaking, I would imagine that if such a statistic was available the IQ's and all round intellectual strengths of non tory MP's would be considerably higher than there Tory counterparts. However, none of this really matters as there is a Sir Humphrey who will always be the real person making decisions ... how is Lord Mandelson?
===
Never let the facts get in the way of a good, class-based rant.
Actually, of the 2005 election intake 81% of Tory MPs were university educated, compared to 79% of LibDems and 64% Labour. 43% of the Tories attended Oxbridge, compared to 31% LibDems, and 16% Labour.
Interestingly, 18% of Labour MPs were hypocritical enough to have attended fee-paying schools, whilst being opposed to giving others the same opportunities they enjoyed.
http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/notes/snSG-01528.pdf
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C555 @ 141
if nothing else you are consistent
thank you Andrew, yes I am ... my position is this: during the boom, our standard of living rose substantially, and a lot of people in this country made a lot of money (it wasn't hard, let's face it) - Brown was Chancellor throughout that period, and so it's tempting to give him credit for it - do I give him credit? no, I don't - why? because the boom was primarily fuelled by banking malpractice, false asset valuations, mispriced risk ... originating in, most prevalent in, but by no means confined to, yes, America ... fuelled by that, rather than by genuine wealth creation - Brown was a passenger, not the pilot, we all know that now - and those self same factors, which created the Boom, have now brought us the Bust - no more boom and bust? ha! best joke ever told by anyone, anywhere (well, apart from Mortimax being "livid" about MPs expenses) - but just as he was a passenger on the way up, so too is he a passenger on the way down - he's not to blame for the recession, any more than he was the architect of the good times - all he did was luck out with the tax receipts, and spend them on public services - just like we told him to do - funnily enough, I actually rate his number 10 a little higher than his number 11 ... he was miles overrated as a Chancellor but, as PM, he's handled the biggest economic crisis of modern times reasonably well, IMO - or at least I can (easily) imagine it being handled rather less well ... by the VPBs, for example
IZ @ 146
3 Trillion squandered
gee Zim! ... bet you never caught a "little one" when you went fishing as a boy, did you?
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Rewind to this FT critique of a book written SIX years ago about the man wielding that axe... the book written by William Keegan, a veteran financial journalist (Observer), both an admirer and critic of Brown.
"Keegan is critical of Brown for accepting when he came to office in 1997 the first two years' spending plans of the previous Conservative government which he took more seriously than Clarke ever did. This was avowedly to create a platform for the public spending increases which have characterised Brown's later years. Keegan now feels obliged however to echo the now familiar fears that these spending plans may run into a funding crisis if they are carried forward many more years."
"With hindsight we can all think of better phasing. But the fact remains that there is no way in which public spending on services such as health and education can grow indefinitely faster than the national income without the tax burden having to rise to pay for them. Either the voters will have to lump this; or they will have to rethink the dogmas of that these services must be free at the point of delivery."
"Keegan's most serious economic criticism is of the "one club golfer", by which is meant exclusive use of interest rates for demand management. This has left, it is alleged, a divided economy with rising consumer spending and soaring debts but an enfeebled manufacturing and export sector. Here he would find an echo among many financial analysts. Consumer debt will eventually have to at least stop rising faster than the national income if it is not to become explosive." (no kidding, TBG)
The book: The Prudence of Gordon Brown by William Keegan, CBE.
Post CC, Keegan doesn't blame Brown for the credit crunch but says “Of course, he shares some blame for promising to abolish boom and bust.” “He also didn’t bring in credit controls and a limit on the size of mortgages. He bears some responsibility for what went wrong."
Brown appears to have ignored his supporters who were warning of the growing debt problem.
I also looked into GB's qualifications for his role as the chief axe-wielder... no financial qualifications or experience prior to 'learning on the job'. History and politics at uni, a bit of TV writing and producing then straight into a safe seat. Not much behind him either: Darling: studied law, advocate then into politics. Ed Balls is more qualified than both, but again, no real job experience, all theory and no practical experience. I suppose they can always rely on Sir Alan, Lord Sugar, to give them sage advice.
In anticipation of shouting from the gallery on my left, the Shadow team also look very lightweight at the top. Although Clarke and Hammond have more relevant political and business experience than their senior counterparts. It doesn't matter who's swinging it, it'll be painful.
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#146.
'Prepare for the next Tory governement.'
I've started work on the bunker already!
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Nick i like a few others on here would like to know if Baroness Scotland is above and beyond the law? Or is she part and partial of a devolved Scotland as the name suggest And is subject to different laws as laid down by the Scottish Parliament?like in the lockabe bomber case? one law for one group another for the poor.
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If they want to scrap something why not a programme that has a serious risk of disruption the collection of corporation tax as well as a serious risk of bankrupting small companies and increasing unemployment?
If you don't know what it is - look up "XBRL and HMRC" and "XRBL and Companies House" in a search engine.
The way that this EU proposal is being implemented is looking like it will be hugely damaging to all three problems I identified in the above paragraph. (The UK has by far the highest number of small companies in Europe so we suffer disproportionately.)
It will cost the 800,000 small companies up to 2000 GBP or so a year - thus damaging their profitability (to the tune for getting on for 2 BILLION GBP a year. This will mean that theses companies are at risk of going bust at the margin and thus increasing unemployment. (THIS IS INSANE IN A RECESSION)
The tax collection problem comes from the fact that HMRC (and Companies House) are intending to PREVENT companies filing their accounts on paper, but instead FORCING them to file in XRBL (inline XRBL in fact). The systems at HMRC and CH are untested. The production of the accounts by small companies in this new format is untested and even the 3500 definitions that have to be used (and hidden) are un-finalised - this is possibly the most damaging computer system introduction I have ever seen and it comes into force from 30 March 2010.
This could be, has a very serious and obvious risk of being, hugely disruptive for tax collection and thus damaging to the Nation's finances. (Exactly NOT what you want to do in a recession!) Yet this scheme of untested introduction is exactly what is proposed. Absolute insanity - in my view it should be put off until after the recession - say 2025. (And that it what I have proposed to the powers that be. I think I owe them a duty to prevent them from their own folly!)
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nice of Nick to avoid the poll in the Times today suggesting the tories are now trusted on everything more than tired old labour, including the NHS and Education.
in fact the only area they fall behind is climate issues where Nick Clegg has the edge.
A substantial majority don't like and don't trust Gordon Brown and further find him dull.
Great position to be in ahead of your party conference and a general election.
Rather embarrassing to find that after twelve years opf showering the NHS with three times as much money as the tories the tories are now trusted to sort it out more than you are...something of a waste of money?
They are also trusted to sort out the balance between debt and spending more than tired old labour.
Such a shame that the =tired old labour legacy will be to be thought of as a bunch of spendaholic, incompetent and unlikeable fools.
Now kindly stand aside and call an election.
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Wouldn't it be a good idea to start at the top, after all, do we really need Gordon Brown?
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FOM @ 152
the "sub-prime" offerings were part of an understandable desire to allow poorer people to get on the housing ladder
yes, Open, and I'm a big fan of Sub Prime for that very reason - the democratisation of credit I prefer to call it - a great idea - in my view, it was far more the smoke and mirrors (and very toxic) MBO/CDS combo which has caused the Bust, rather than sub prime lending per se - and btw, I don't go along with the notion that we've had a house price bubble in the UK - I'd more say property, here, was substantially undervalued for many years, and this was duly corrected - the correction overran (as most do) and too low interest rates, plus some lax lending plus the spivvy excesses of BTL, took prices maybe 20 pc over - will now stabilise at around 2006 levels, no big deal - nothing like the USA where (with land so plentiful, and far worse excesses, and not much of a rental market) it's quite hard to call the floor
BASRBA1 @ 148
will clearly be swept asaide by the incoming hugely capable and utterly responsible Tory Government
excellent, satire lives!
YB @ 153
18% of Labour MPs were hypocritical enough to have attended fee paying schools, whilst being opposed to giving others the same opportunities they enjoyed
hear that line a lot, Yellow, but not sure it stacks up - the thing is, an end to private schools is NOT Labour policy - if only it were - I'd float no more, I tell you, if I could find that in the 'festo
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We are going to have cuts in services, redundancies, govt programs being dropped because the Unions won't agree to the changes in work practices needed to double or triple the output from capital already invested.
It's a shame. We have the technology to have the majority of public admin done by homeworking, we have capital facilities that are used for 40hrs pw when they could be used for 112hrs pw at huge savings with no job or service cuts.
I can't see Labour taking on the public and local authority Unions and professional bodies.
Has anyone noticed that the govt's yearly debt exactly matches the amount the BoE is printing. £175 billion.
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I asked (post 45) if any Labour supporter could explain why Gordon Brown has waited until now, two years into the financial crisis, to say he will cut "unnecessary projects" and the lack of response speaks volumes.
Not a single contributor has provided an explanation, justification or even an excuse for the PM's failure to take action earlier.
If, as appears to be the case, it is accepted that there is no justification for this irresponsible failure at a time of national crisis would any of the PMs apologists care to explain why we should trust him or his government to do any better in the future?
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If only Labour had restrained public spending in the first place, then they wouldn't have needed to hammer the middle class with stealth taxes for the last 12 years.
The punchline? Despite being showered with our cash for years and landing us with a huge debt, public services don't seem to have improved very much.
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Re # 107 Sigh_Sigh
And all Labour MP's past and present are thick as two short planks because their parents are members of the lowest socio economic echelons, and therefore not clever enough to ensure their offspring go to decent schools and attain good qualifications.
Except everything I have just written above is complete and utter (expletive deleted).
Grow up, and get over whatever class issues you have but please don't bother us with them ever again. If you have to resort to petty jibes like that, you've more than likely lost whathever argument you were having and are now resorting to throwing your toys out of the pram.
However if you have any insightful political comments to offer then please continue. I shall not be holding my breath.
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Harris @ 136 ... the London one, not that reactionary "66" version
The only way out of this mess will be once we realise we all need the same money to live on ... a fairer distribution of Wealth ... and until that day comes we will, as a Nation, be going nowhere fast
spot on, brother! - CTP badge, cap, furry dice ... whatever the hell you prefer ... coming your way
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Does anyone really believe that Darling has only just started to talk to ministers about cutting their budgets? If it's true, he needs to resign as it's already too late to start such conversations!
Why are people here falling for the line that Brown has been lying to us? It's just journalistic hype and Tory Party sixth form common room politics that you are falling for.
Being unable to see the wood for the trees, not being good at financial analysis and presentation are NOT synonyms for lying.
In addition, Nick Robinson et al is as keen on harping on about the word cuts as if that means spending less AND reducing services. Not at all: increasing efficiencies and productivity, for example, will improve matters and cause spending to fall but in that case cuts in the level of services will not happen. Of course, cuts in services will occur and many of them will be deserved.
Why don't we have a higher quality debate than the one that journalists and the Tory Party would like us to have?
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Why is it now, some 6 months or so before a General Election, that the current Administration is starting to try to identify areas for cutting out waste?
Is it because a Treasury document has been 'leaked'? Is this a result of the influence of Mandelson or is it because the Conservatives appear to have maintained their lead in the polls? I assume that I, like others before me on this blog, with their varied views, could identify numerous other causes but it would be assumption of Government actions that cannot be proved.
It is up to this Government to tell us, the tax payers, their intentions. The opposition parties may then, be in a position to indicate their proposals, so that we, the voters can make informed decisions.
This involvment of the proposed Electorate, may then persuade more people to participate in the G.E. Any chance of this happening?
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#154 Sagamix
Your argument about GB's lack of culpability is like excusing someone who thought they could fly when they drive off a cliff and kill all the passengers!
And when you say that GB spent all his fantasy money on public services 'because that's what we told him to' is this an admission that those clamouring for ever increasing state spending got it so very wrong?
I'm sure it isn't but your logic does confirm that we, as a country, have been living beyond our means for the past 5 years or so. It's a shame that the tories were suckered into agreeing to match Labour's spending plans for a while but DC has already apologised for that error -it would be nice for the Government to do the same.
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#161. At 4:19pm on 18 Sep 2009, sagamix wrote:
"FOM @ 152
the "sub-prime" offerings were part of an understandable desire to allow poorer people to get on the housing ladder
yes, Open, and I'm a big fan of Sub Prime for that very reason - the democratisation of credit I prefer to call it - a great idea - in my view,"
Saga,
As I said, I like the idea of helping people to own a property. But not tempting people to borrow more than they can afford - and more than the true asset value. The "democratisation of debt" is probably a more aplicable phrase.
"... it was far more the smoke and mirrors (and very toxic) MBO/CDS combo which has caused the Bust, rather than sub prime lending per se"
Agreed - but quite a lot of that stuff was invented by bright sparks in the UK finance houses, as well.
"- and btw, I don't go along with the notion that we've had a house price bubble in the UK - I'd more say property, here, was substantially undervalued for many years, and this was duly corrected - the correction overran (as most do) and too low interest rates, plus some lax lending plus the spivvy excesses of BTL, took prices maybe 20 pc over - will now stabilise at around 2006 levels, no big deal -"
Saga,
It may be no big deal to you, but it is for people who were virtually force fed rediculous loans and have seen the value of their "core asset" shrink. Especially hard on the young and the poorer sector of society. Sorry, I forgot you like democatising debt.
At least, individuals have to take their choices when buying houses and throw away consumer stuff.
Tax payers (richer or poorer) don't get to choose which bits of government spending are sensible and they like. They have to accept any old rubbish that Brown and Co have described as "prudent investment".
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#167 duncanwil
If you seriously think that savings of 9.3% (as quoted in the leaked treasury document) can be largely achieved through efficiencies and increased productivity then you believe that this government has overseen a hideously bloated state sector.
Where do I claim a refund for my wasted taxes over the past decade?
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Sagamix 143
"the fact Gordon clings to that a bit doesn't make it untrue"
At least you now admit that Gordon is a Brown Klingon!
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For once unwittingly the BBC places the lead story of OFGEM admitting it does not have the power to force price cuts on the utility companies. This is a gross dereliction of duty of both Labour and Tory governments over the last 20 years or so.
Whole sale gas prices used to be determined as a fixed ratio of the oil price, but last summer when the price of oil rocketted and reached its peak "the wise counsel of the utility firms" (extreme irony here) prevailed and the gas price remained at its peak, thus beaking the link with the oil price whilst the oil price receded. A large part of our tame economic recovery starts right here.
The French have adequate laws and rules in place that do not permit the general populace to be ripped off by these scavenging scum. Piano wire and waterboarding are too good for the utility company Chief Execs. But the real question is how come our Parliamentary scrutiny process (both the Commons and the Lords) allowed a regulatory firm to be created that only has no teeth but whose lips are sewn together and no doubt wearing a strait jacket for good measure.
The whole of Whitehall should be deeply ashamed. This stinks.
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Breaking news!
Labour asked Lib Dems to prop up Gordon Brown.
Nick Clegg has claimed that Labour insiders have asked the Liberal Democrats to prop up Gordon Brown's Government.
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