'Labour's lost it,' says the Sun
"Labour's lost it" screams the front page of the Sun the morning after Gordon Brown's conference speech.
The paper has timed its big political switch - away from backing Labour to backing the Tories - for maximum impact both in terms of gaining attention for the paper and of taking the gloss off Mr Brown's big day.
Years ago, Britain's biggest selling daily boasted that "It was the Sun wot won it". In truth, it never was. The paper - which is first and foremost a commercial product - tends to follow its readers' views rather than set them.
However, if they choose to ridicule or denigrate a particular politician they can do real damage. If they choose to campaign consistently on a popular cause they can drive it up the agenda. Ask Neil Kinnock, whose head was shown in a lightbulb on the eve of polling day in 1992 with the headline "If Kinnock wins today, will the last person to leave Britain please turn out the lights". Or ask the current Defence Secretary, Bob Ainsworth, who is forced to read headline after headline declaring him not up to the job and suggesting that his policies have led to unnecessary deaths in Afghanistan.
Rupert Murdoch always had a bond of respect with Gordon Brown - admiring his values and his work ethic. Not so his son James, who now runs News International and is close to the shadow chancellor George Osborne.
The Sun's decision to desert Labour in this way and at this time will cause dismay in Labour ranks. What they must hope, though, is that the paper does not choose now to treat Gordon Brown as it once did Mr Kinnock and now treats Mr Ainsworth. It is that, rather than a single day's endorsement of the Tories, which would do real damage.
I'm 
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Nick:
That is the opinion of the Sun (Newspaper) that the Labour "lost it"....
~Dennis Junior~
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Andrew Marr must be falling about laughing, who was the prat who decided that Sit down was the appropriate theme for Gordon Brown
"Those who feel the breath of sadness
Sit down next to me
Those who find they’re touched by madness
Sit down next to me
Those who find themselves ridiculous
Sit down next to me"
Thanks Guido, absolutely fabulous. At least someone in Nulabour has a sense of humour; another Nokia hits the wall.
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When Winston Churchill learned of America`s entry into ww2 he said:
"That`s it then,we`ve won!"
How delicious it to be able to say:
"That`s it then,evil(yes,evil) ZanuLab are doomed!"?
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When I listen to the politicians of this Labour Party I am physically sickened by the unbelievable belief they have, that they have achieved any progress in 12 years.
I actually feel very sorry for Brown and his followers because they really think the have made a positive difference to the people of this land but they are deluded they have failed us all socially, economically, morally, ethically and internationally. They need to be retired to a rest home while a new government gets on with catching up and restoring our position in the world and brings us back the rewards of our creativity and endeavour in technology restore our society and provides opportunity for all.
Economy higher unemployment the economy in taters prospects in a dire state unemployment to rise to over 3 million they inherited, as every labour government has, a sound economy and always left it in tatters
Brown lead of with a good start to his speech but like his government has over the years slowly ran out of steam
.
The Labour parties leading claim is health waiting lists down, how much is that steeling other peoples glory that is advances in medicine when my father went in to hospital with a heart attack in the fifties he was bedridden for 6 months when the first heart transplant took place the beneficiary was in intensive care for three months today some one has a new heart and is running a marathon in three months that is not government that is medical science technology not Gordon Brown. We have operation in a day visit that took weeks that is science not politics.
Education investment in building the windows in my sons school were fine twelve years ago now they leak like sieves and we can not get the funding to repair them they are continually down grading standards. They provide no challenge to bright children and little support to children with special needs depriving them of special school education and have a dreadful record in literacy and maths. If obesity is a problem why do we have little or no sports in schools which is also known to improve mental agility as well
Law and order what a disaster pen pushing form filling police who cant get out to solve the crimes they don’t record because it will ruin their statistics still we send people to jail for twenty years for robbery and five years for murder no wonder the underclass believe carrying a knife is less hazardous than carrying a skeleton key.
So what an underclass of illiterate drug addicted, knife carrying yobs has been created by this government policies and what is the answer not help and corrective but colonization in the midst of other communities where they reek further havoc
No wonder we have a booze culture with this governments messages of hopelessness and the achievement of nothing only looking after self interest rewarding greed in the main their own and those who pass them a few bucks..
Communities support, housing policy, social policy and corrective training and help for the dysfunctional all unavailable and all the social workers who should b helping on courses or filling in forms afraid to leave their office for fear of getting it wrong in a mountain of red tape and of buck passing and told to reduce the number of people and children they have listed as at risk. So the statistical results look better
If we had any decency as an electorate we would ensure that these deluded people were put into a secure rest home and given cream teas until they were as sick as the speech I have listened to in Brighton makes me
And I have not even mentioned war, tax, defence, bankers, pensions, expenses welfare all of which have gone seriously wrong with this way out of touch government thank goodness they are on the way out. Good bye Labour thank you for a lesson we will remember for along time that is those who claim to be socialist states nearly always fail the people.
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well fair enough - the Sun represents all that is third rate and tawdry and deserving of contempt in this country, and so it's only right and proper they align themselves with the Conservative Party
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Oh dear.
If I were Ben Bradshaw, I'd be looking over my shoulder for a while for flying Nokias.
Slagging off Murdoch from the podium? Ewwww.... Not a good idea.
Being kicked in the spuds for the next six months day in day out by a paper with about 5 million readers? No matter whether you do good or bad?
Thats going to hurt.
Still.
Could be worse, eh? They could be adopting the policies of the far right... British Jobs For British Workers... Operation Fightback... Single Pregnant Teenagers being handed over to the 21st century version of the Magdelen Sisters... well, thats three things stolen from the BNP.
And Miliband Junior humiliated by Paxo as well. 1 minute into the first round and already, the soft sound of towel hitting canvas floor, followed by the dull thud of Milliband Junior.
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.
All going so very horribly wrong.
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5#
Thought you might try and put a brave face on it mate.
QFS.
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The Sun is a bellwether, and it is highly likely to turn on Brown, as that is what the public themselves want to do (refer to recent polling) out of sheer frustration but can't because he just won't call a general election.
Analysis of the speech today reveals that there was absolutely nothing new in it. Just repackaging. Labour have nothing new to say, and have cleaned the pot out and left us with a generational debt burden and a 30% per annum overspend to deal with.
Hopefully the good old 'currant bun' will excoriate them to a point where they surrender the reigns of power and let someone, anyone, get on with trying to salvage something out of the mess for the current and future citizens of this country.
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If the Sun had come to it's senses years ago Brown would not have spent a very large portion of my unborn grandchildrens earnings.
Still at least this will drive a steak through the heart of the prince of darkness.
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Skynine:
Thanks for that hilarious post . . . I'm wiping tears of mirth from my eyes.
Some Labour minion will be put up against a wall tonight to have Nokias thrown at him/her. LOL
Only Labour could pick a song with 'those' lyrics out of millions to choose from.
Don't Labour "DO" iPods and iTunes? What a complete bunch of losers.
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Nick - looks like Murdoch Junior is very possibly going to be your new boss . 'Till then I can ignore him by not buying his publications and not add to his coffers by refusing to purchase or subscribe to anything I knowingly believe he has any financial interests in . It will be a shame to no longer look at the Beeb's website after Murdoch's Macaroon has signed you over to him after the Tories win .
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Regardless of what you might think of the Sun as a newspaper or its' readers, when it comes to general elections, they seem to get it right.
But the news that Gordon now has Murdoch as a thorn in his side from now until election day might just persuade the clown to give it up as a bad job slightly sooner than intended, which of course can only be a good thing.
I shall enjoy watching him squirm in the meantime!
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Nick:
The Sun's decision to desert Labour in this way and at this time will cause dismay in Labour ranks.
Maybe, there are reasons that SUN is deserting Labour...
~Dennis Junior~
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Nick, there is one tiny little difference between GB and NK. GB is the PM with still a quite serviceable majority, and could do a lot of damage to NI interests on their way out the door should junior lose his head.
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#4 hack-round
Please would you print and post your contribution to number 10 Downing Street with a footnote pointing out your words echo the anger and frustration of so many people?
#5 sagamix
...well fair enough - the Sun represents all that is third rate and tawdry and deserving of contempt in this country, and so it's only right and proper they align themselves with the Conservative Party...
Nice one, even more insulting than usual. Millions of people read The Sun daily, did you read your post before hitting Post Comment? It reads like a cheap shot against this particular newspaper's readership.
Third rate, tawdry and deserving of contempt; you just summed up most of your own postings here with the adjectives most appropriate to the Labour Party.
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Nick
I can't help feeling that your 3rd paragraph where you say:-
" tends to follow its readers' views rather than set them."
is slightly incongruent with the 4th paragraph where you then say:-
"if they (the Sun)choose to ridicule or denigrate a particular politician they can do real damage. If they choose to campaign consistently on a popular cause they can drive it up the agenda."
So on the one hand they follow their readers but they can campaign to drive a popular cause up the agenda. Hmm so are they following the readers or setting the agenda?
Pity you don’t comment about Ed Miliband on Newsnight tonight. He was awful. However he was trying to defend the impossible. I particularly like the bit where Paxo asks him about the bit where GB said "from now on teenage mothers ......." and the fact they will live in hostels. However when questioned the "From now on" according to Ed Miliband is not that the "Foyers" as he calls them not hostels dont actually exist but it will be a promise in the next manifesto to implement them. It then turns out that a Times reporter also on the Newsnight Programme wrote about implementing these "Hostels / Foyers" some 10 years ago!!
Anybody believe the referendum promise on AV? We were promised a referendum on Europe that didn’t happen!!
I thought ID Cards were to help in the fight against terrorism, or was that cutting crime or identity theft? Anyway as both Lib Dem and Conservatives say they going to cut that so now are Labour. Well ID Cards can’t be that good at protecting us from Terrorism if they are being got rid of.
I could go on about House of Lords reform not being new (1997) and other "New" initiatives that have been announced before and not implemented that were in the speech today as “New” initiatives.
So Not surprised by the Sun decision, more deserting the sinking ship!!!
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I see that ministers have already been instructed to use the phrase:
"people decide the outcome of elections, not newspapers".
They weren't so keen to let the people decide whether they wanted the loathsome Mandelson back in government.
Tonight there was a perfect example of how corrupt and dishonest this government has now become. When asked by Andrew Neil to explain the Prime Minister's repeated attempts to compare Conservative cuts with Labour investment, Ben Bradshaw said "I don't think he actually said that".
Anyone who has taken the least notice will know that Brown used this exact phrase week after week at PM's questions.
So, not only is Bradshaw a stranger to the truth, he has so little respect for the electorate that he expects us to swallow his garbage.
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New quickly inserted law in the queen's speech about media ownership law anyone?
I can't believes the low number of Labour supporters in the hall whenever there is a speech. Jack Straw looked like he was addressing a parish council meeting.
They really are toast. If Clegg had any idea he would now move in for the kill and direct all of his fire on Brown to solidify second place.
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George Pascoe-Watson saying that he doesn't care about Cameron's background when he was quite happy to slag off BBC staff a while back for the crime of being university-educated? The man and his newspaper are worthy of nothing but contempt, whatever party he and his paymasters align himself to.
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Really don't like being told by any organisation especially the Murdoch's whose should be elected to the Government...thats my job as a voter...straight after Mr Brown's speech this seems just too manufactured and deliberate on behalf of the Sun...so whilst I don't like Gordon Brown...I m going to say I will vote for him unless David Cameron on his merits not by the Sun can do better...Im the voter not the Sun...disgusting and insulting to our democracy...!!!
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It looks like the BBC is in for a mauling after the next election; subscription only access to the website with advertising and product placement.
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The government owned shares in the 'failed' banks are now worth £80bn and climbing. Is GB waiting for the recovery so he can cash in and then call/fight an election with much less of a debt problem?
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My word is this thread open? Unusual, they close so quickly recently.
So sweet to see the Murdoch press (Albeit Jnr) giving it as it is. About time. A fair reflection on the way many of us feel.
As for the speeches from the last couple of days. What a load of twaddle. Are we supposed to believe that the current government are going to keep the promises they have just made? They weren't capable of keeping any of the previous promises....
Mandleson tried hard to rally the troops and his number two didn't do badly today. But the truth is that we, the general public are sick and tired of sick and tired promises, we've had enough. We don't believe you have the money to fulfil your promises. Stop trying to con us.
It's a disgrace they way they try to cheat us. They should have more respect for their electorate. Perhaps they think by changing the way we vote for them they might keep a grasp on power?
It was all cheap and nasty today. And they might just get what they deserve?
SW x
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"What they must hope, though, is that the paper does not choose now to treat Gordon Brown as it once did Mr Kinnock and now treats Mr Ainsworth."
How did you manage to type that sentence without cracking up?... It's Open Season and you know it... And, I fully suspect, so do Labour: hope has nothing to do with it; expectation is is more appropriate.
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I listened to Gordon Brown giving the faithful what they wanted to hear in his speech at the Labour Party Conference with what must rank as one of the best Brain - Washing speeches ever delivered by an un-elected British Prime Minister.
For while Brown's fans clapped their hands raw with approval in tune with the Clapper-Board in perfect timing as Gordon was setting-out even further ideas of more future Government spending everyone was clearly forgetting that after the next General Election, any Government WILL have to reduce in Real-Terms the overall size of Public Sector expenditure.
So therefore, how Gordon and Labour think they are in any way going to be able too afford the promises they are now making while at the very same time having to reduce Public Spending is quite frankly beyond me, and I can fully understand why The Sun Newspaper are suggesting that however much any future Labour Government may want to carry out a Wish-List programme of improvements, when while looking at the mounting Debt levels both current and rising, it is not hard to see that something doe's not add up, while Gordon has well and truly finally lost the plot, in thinking that he can save the World a second time.
For the only thing Second about this Government is its uneven handedness in its approach in learning to count-up before they end-up booming the bust of the UK's Economy permanently.
Gordon, don't call us, and we won't call you.
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Well, that's that then. All that remains is the rush to the lifeboats. Mandelson has already nabbed one, but I'm sure plenty more incumbent Labour MPs will suddenly have a road-to-Damascus moment and realise that they've been Tories / Whigs / SNP / Plaid Cymru under the skin for years, and that their conscience now demands that they switch parties.
All the most shrewd political animals will just pin a different rosette on their expense-claim suits, and nothing will change under a nominally Tory regime. Just the way the establishment likes it, in other words.
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#25
"Government owned shares are worth £80bn and climbing?"
Have you any clue at all about how much we already owe? Multiply by a factor of 15 and then add on another 50% of that for PFI and unfunded public sector pensions. That'd be some recovery and quite some 'cash in' too!
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"Labour's lost it" screams the front page of the Sun the morning after Gordon Brown's conference speech.
Well that's stating the obvious.... Must be hard for die hard Labourites...
They know the mood of the country, they know when they are being fed lies and falsehoods. Maybe they are prepared to throw some white spirit on the gloss of Mr Brown's big day!
Be careful before you denigrate the opinion of a major media outlet, we all here have experience of media biased, oh and how we ignore it.... Thankfully.
Today's speech was full of everything the electorate wanted to hear, and didn't need to hear. Full of empty promise, high expectations and the rhetoric that we expect from a vacant government.
As for the relationship between Osbourne and Murdoch Jnr. Really Mr Robinson, can you do any better? I recall the close relationship between Mr Murdoch Snr and the Tories. And how about your relationship with the Labour Party? Come now?
Let's look at the reality. No new ideas, no new leader, no newspapers......
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I can just imagine them having a field day with his referendum promise...
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Nick you should have mentioned that the Sun isn't backing the Tories in Scotland, as you did on TV tonight, that's very significant.
It will be a boost to the SNP if the Sun remains neutral in Scotland in terms of support but continues to chip away at Labour and a real boost if it supports the SNP as it has done in the past.
Shame the Scottish BBC politicos don't have your sense of professional balance when reporting Nick, their unionist(London Labour) bias is legendary.
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When Sarah Brown said "Now lets watch a video of Gordons achievements..." I was so happy when the BBC cut back to Andrew Neil and he said something like "We don't broadcast any such videos from any conference on the BBC". Saved me having to endure what I can only assume was a 5 minute blank tape.
I have to say, the speech itself didn't really rouse me at all. I didn't think it was bad, but it was a lot of nothing also. A referendum on electoral reform IF we elect them again. How can we trust such things? If they really cared about this country they'd offer that along with the actual GE - it wouldn't be an "IF you elect us" thing. A democratic second chamber? - we've been waiting for this since '97. Does it mean we'll be able to get rid of Lord Mandleson?. An open prison for single mothers? - paraphrasing of course. A drinks ban for yobs? - how is this even enforceable to say nothing of affordable?. No compulsory I.D cards? - Great, but you already announced this. The big evil is the database itself and we all know it.
I don't think they understand, they can promise anything and everything, the problem is the average person has lost all trust and faith in them due to the promises they have made and never delivered. They could offer the world and a lot of people would still think "Yea, I don't see any flying pigs.".
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I get the feeling that the Sun looked at Brown's speech and thought "What a load of crap"... Just look at everything he promised, everything was a "mediabite", very sad...... And what really bites is that we had promises last time and they didn't deliver on any of them.......
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How depressing to think that Democracy can come down to what a propriator of a seedy soft porn rag decides we should vote for. It puts all this 1984 BS in the shade. Still its quite funny to see all these people who congregate here to look down on the lower classes who vote Labour, discussing The Sun. What a bunch of Tony Hancocks!
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35. At 02:06am on 30 Sep 2009, EmilyQuango wrote:
I think you summed it up. It was full of vacant promises that we all know (apart from the zombified faithful) that can never be fulfilled. It was a sad inditement of a disparate government. Promise everything, money is no object, we will spend, spend and spend again. How stupid do they think we are? Are they banking on the public sector and those that can wait for "5 years" for their benefits to back them? 5 years for what?
Let's get rid and see what we get from some new ideas and hopefully a group that can offer some honesty, and let's hold them accountable, this lot aren't.
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I'm off to bed and do you know what? I've just listened to the major soundbites of all the big points and I don't believe they'll deliver on any one of them. In the same way that they didn't deliver last time round. And what really bites hard, they shouted loud today (Gordon did) about every major news story that has happened over the last few days, and they were looking for votes..... They weren't involved before it happened..... But they want to be associated now, Shame....
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I think the Sun may have badly misjudged this. Yes, they may declare open season on Gordon Brown, but now that Labour no longer have their support, surely they will declare open season on the Sun. There is a great current of unease and dissatisfaction about Rupert Murdoch's influence in this country, and if Labour can go on the attack and tap into some of that feeling (for example, Murdoch's Fox News slagging off the NHS), people will sit up and take notice. The Sun has declared its support for Cameron so far ahead of the election that it could well turn out to be a poisoned chalice.
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Actually, it looks like the Sun is backing the Tories in Scotland--sort of. If that's enthusiasm, I would hate to see lukewarm support. But it is support of a sort.
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My take on this Sun announcement is that it's extraordinarily early. It's been clear to me for 6 or 7 months that the economy is doing much better and finally the figures are catching up. Bank balance sheets are getting back on track, house sales are picking up, loans are picking up and it rather looks to me that everything's righting itself to the extent that ordinary people will have less to moan about progressively month by month, while the background stuff sorts itself out over a more extended period.
The Sun have put their oar in so early in order to take the gloss off things and make it seem that there's still a problem. Trouble is, there isn't, so they're going to look very silly unless they start a totally fictitious bandwagon about wheels coming off.
I hate it when the gutter press talk the country down. I don't think much of the Sun in the first place, but they've jumped on the wrong horse. I give them until the new year for them to change their minds and put a very big spanner in the works for the opposition parties when they do.
Just a feeling I have.
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as per mr hill's comments above;
the sun on their "scottish" website is backing the tories, the story is still part of the website but in the paper they will not back the tories or they will lose half their circulation.
the great benefit laden unwashed who read this comic care more about page 3 boobies than they do about politics.
the tories wrecked scotland, and ghetting labour voters in glasgow to vote tory is just a bridge too far from reality.
if they really believe in the tories for britain, then they need to back the tories in scotland, even if it hits their circulation.
if that happened then it provides lots of ammo for the daily beano, sorry record, would overhaul them and be more popular, as people in the west of scotland in particular are inherently more supportive of labour than they will ever be of the tories.
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Considering the political allegiances of the Murdoch farm, one can only wonder why it took so long for the Sun to confirm that their snouts were following their tongues up Andy Coulson's backside.
Having had the misfortune to recently pick up a copy of the Sun, and having nothing else to read, it took a few minutes to realise I was in the same situation as before I had picked up the paper. Some "nice" pictures, reasonable cartoons and I am given to understand good coverage of horse racing, but I will be joining the growing numbers of ex-Sun readers and won't be buying it.
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All those lists in Gordon's speech: are they really going to happen, or was Gordon just, er, making up a list of things to say?
One can't tell the difference these days between Gordon Brown fantasising about what will be, and the considered development and implementation of Governemnt policy. It's all very baffling.
Does Gordon Brown live on the same planet as his Government (not to mention us subjects)?
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At 11:50pm on 29 Sep 2009, sagamix wrote:
well fair enough - the Sun represents all that is third rate and tawdry and deserving of contempt in this country, and so it's only right and proper they align themselves with the Conservative Party
---------------------------------------------------
Saga, at least The Sun is no longer aligned with a party that is fourth rate and beneath contempt.
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43. Haven't seen the dead tree version being in the US just the online one. I can't exactly see Scotland voting Tory though, doesn't matter what the Sun does. More likely the (used to be) Labour vote will go to the SNP or stay home.
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Squiddy 2003: "For the last 6-7 months your feeling is that the economy is doing much better" ...better than what? Only you know the answer to that and perhaps for the hunreds of thousands of people in the UK who have lost their jobs over this period you can tell them it was all a dream! You really are deluding yourself. I hope you feel better soon.
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The Sun has just realised what the majority of the country suspected for some time now, that Brown has lost it and has taken this country back to the dark ages.
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I thought newspapers were supposed to report news, not create it? I wish Rupert Murdoch would mind his own business.
I won't be voting Labour at the next general election anyway, but I sure as hell won't be backing David Cameron either, regardless of what the front page of a comic says.
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Do Labour supporters remember how Blair used to creep up to Murdoch all those years ago, I do not remember the faithful Blair followers bashing the Sun then.
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Before you read too much into this, just consider another possible motivation behind Murdoch's switch. If they win the next election, the Conservatives are planning to weaken the BBC which would leave more media space up for grabs by, say, News International. Any comment on that, Nick?
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any legal method to rid gb of gb is fine by me.On anti social behavior,after 12.5 years, suddenly,parents are to get a letter warning them of their childrens behavior in the class and on the streets.I just cant believe that this shower, in charge, think for 1 minute, that sending out letters is somehow going to help solve this problem !!! oh do me a favour brown.
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I think that the Sun WILL turn on Brown personally, and pretty quickly, simply because most of the public - which includes Sun readers - just can't stand the bloke. I can't even bear watching him on TV or listening to him on radio.
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It poses a dilemma. I know Brown has made enough mistakes to defy people to trust his judgement; and I know he and Bliar haven't haven't actually done a lot in education, but the pair has done much to repair the damage to the health and police services done by Thatcher.
But would I trust the Tories? Nope. Cameron is uncomfortably flashy and George Osborne is a little too wet behind the ears: full of theories but...run the economy? I ask myself what practical experience has he outside politics?
Besides, my memories of the Thatcher years are hardly comfortable. With Reagan and his Friendmanite economics, she managed to give the illusion of success usually favouring the rich at the expense of the poor. Privatisation might be good in some circumstances but in others it's plain stupid. Stupid or not, she did it so now we have fragmented transport services, telecoms where customer service is non existant, etc, and regulatory bodies funded by the very companies that provide the utility. In fact the present economic crisis can probably be rooted in her and Reagan.
So, as for voting, looking at the choices, I seriously doubt I'll vote this time - unless it's to help some minority candidate justify his deposit.
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This is the same organisation that runs Fox News, and Yes, Fox News supported Bush in the last American election - I won't say anything more
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There is more to it than that Nick. Brown made entirely the wrong sort of speech yesterday. Where he should have been outlining Government efforts and plans to rein in appalling levels of public borrowing, he made lots of empty spending promises which will never be realised because they are simply unaffordable. Brown is no longer a leader, Labour is no longer a government, the whole country is waiting and wanting an end to it!
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It is interesting to note that the Sun is read by 5 million people, most of whom make up the working class majority of the country.
Well done the Sun for finally reasoning correctly that Labour are doomed.
I find it interesting that staunch Laborites on this blog now condemn the Sun for being tawdry and aimed at the apparently insignificant electorate and that the paper's opinions don't count.
Odd then that Blair rode into number 10 on the back of substantial support from the readers of that publication and yet his supporters now seek to denegrate its publication, existence and content.
Smacks of double standards methinks.
But then maybe those that have spent 12 years believing all the lies, u-turns, spin and smears that have come out of their elected government, can now no longer perceive reality, truth and honesty at all.
NuLabour, whether you read the Sun or not - Nick is absolutely right, they usually back the winners.
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Nick
I think you summed it up when you said that "The Sun... tends to follow its readers' views rather than set them".
Well the readers views are clearly a message to Comrade Brown and his unelectable cronies that the time is up and he has failed as I have predicted for years"
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Kinnock was a giant compared to Brown, so I would most certainly expect the Sun to attack him personally. I cant wait for the pictures of his face superimposed on various root vegetables!! In fact I would even buy the Sun every time they did such a thing
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Nick, your post and the BBC line seems to be that New Labour has lost the backing of the Sun. Turn it around. The Murdoch empire in the shape of the Sun has officially endorsed the Conservative Party in the election. No surprises there. He's been banging the drum for Dave for quite a while.
Murdoch will back the candidate who sells newspapers. The Sun has captured the mood of voters. End of. Brown's conference speech was just the last straw.
Thanks for kindly showing the Sun front page on the BBC 10 o'clock News. What a way to rain on the parade?
http://theorangepartyblog.blogspot.com/2009/09/its-sun-wot-won-it.html
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@ saga
Replace the word "Sun" in your post with "Labour" and you're a tad closer to the truth
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Good morning great Britain and Nick .After watching exerts from
the lab-our party's big top ,The ring master was some what unsteady on his feet.
As i see it an elephant had broken loose knocking over the kinock family
trying to reach the main entrance oh yes they were there the clowns were all clowning about as one would expect in a circus.Then it appeared to me i was in the wrong place iwas supposed to be in the theater watching a play ? But then i was watching a drama unfolding in my very own living room in front of my eyes .When the wife woke me up.Must have dropped off?
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Labour lost the support of the 'Sun' newspaper. Hmmmm. Why could that be?
Because in-depth analysis of political history and global financial systems has convinced its readers that it is time for change? Clearly not, as most 'Sun' readers prefer to be entertained and tranquilised by booze, boobs and football. There is nothing new under the sun since Roman times. Give the plebs bread and games and keep them quiet whilst a corrupt elite runs away with the wealth of nations. This is the society that Rupert and James Murdoch want as long as it fills their bank accounts. No wonder that James Murdoch joins George Osborne to promote him as new Sherif of Nottingham.
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I can't help but smile when I see The Sun - always a follower of, rather than a leader of - the mood in the country finally, eventually, jumping on the bandwagon. Was there seriously a single person in the country who didn't expect this populist rag to jump on the popular bandwagon? When the Tories are in exactly the same boat in ten years or so, it'll be Da Sun Wot Wun for Labour once again.
I have no hopes at all for the expected next Tory Government in this country, the same as I never had for Blair or Brown. They'll announce how they're going to "save" us all, then proceed to work towards keeping themselves in power, helping their friends and fiddling around the edges and actually solving nothing.
The problem for me, like many people in this country, is that I will have a choice between voting for liars or voting for hypocrites, all of them (other than those I would never even consider voting for) campaigning on why we shouldn't vote for the other guy, rather than actually setting out policies that they are willing to carry out and capable of carrying out.
And then people wonder why turnout is so low on election day... But remember, It Woz Da Sun Wot Wun It. Right?
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37#
What, the Express are in on the act as well???
51#
Hear hear.
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It has taken the Sun a long time to come to the same conclustion that the British public have done some 2 to 3 years ago.
Labour may have lost the Sun but they still have their favourite propaganda machine in place - the BBC.
Listening to the bbc commentary of the Labour Conference I ask you how can a party be so dispirited on the first day with very poor attendance, and on the final day display lots of shouting and singing after a couple of speeches by people who have made a mess of their careers and OUR country?
Juvenile as well as incompetent comes to mind.
As for Kinnock and Ainsworth - have they ever resigned over their incompetence? NO - Kinnock publically stated he would refuse a knighthood, guess what he did when it was offered?
Broken Britain under Labour.
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Nick, Nulabour has lost the plot, I think the following link amply illustrates this:
Teenage mothers – the problem and the solution.
This is what the NuLabour foot soldiers think of their Government.
I believe that NuLabours tectonic plates have just shifted.
Roll On 2010 I May have to change my username.
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This is nothing new. The Sun has been Tory for years. This is proved by the timing of its headline. It probably would have run this headline at this time whatever Gordon Brown's speech had been like. It has always made it obvious it never liked Gordon Brown. And the Liberal Democrats don't even exist for the Sun! The bias and timing of this announcement shows an arrogance and conceit which is almost beyond belief. If The Sun's readers actually read beyond the headlines and pictures let's hope they make up their own minds. Why has The Sun announced this BEFORE the Tory Party conference? Because whatever Labour came up with in its conference, The Sun was going to run this headline anyway. That's how it looks to me. I always thought there was a good reason for not subscribing to the politically biased Murdoch news media. This has confirmed it beyond any doubt. Come on Sun readers... even if you support the Conservatives... this sort of headline and the timing of is an insult to your intelligence.
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Can we join the Euro now?
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Why all this fuss about this headline?
Six weeks before the 1997 election, when it is clear that Labour are going to win by a landslide, The Sun jumps ship to "support Blair".
It then spends the next 12 years pursuing exactly the same agenda it always has done (xenophobic nationalism), while still "supporting labour" in 2001 and 2005.
Now that it looks like Labour has lost the next election, they switch to "support Cameron", as we all knew they would.
The fact that they have waited this long, until it is clear that Labour is finished, shows how craven they are in their attempts to secure influence over the incoming government.
I'm no fan of Brown, and will be happy to see him go, but I don't want to see The Sun being given one iota of credit for any influence on the outcome of the election.
In 1992, they made the correct call, that is all.
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#35 EmilyQuango
When Sarah Brown said "Now lets watch a video of Gordons achievements..." I was so happy when the BBC cut back to Andrew Neil and he said something like "We don't broadcast any such videos from any conference on the BBC". Saved me having to endure what I can only assume was a 5 minute blank tape.
I have to say, the speech itself didn't really rouse me at all. I didn't think it was bad, but it was a lot of nothing also. A referendum on electoral reform IF we elect them again. How can we trust such things? If they really cared about this country they'd offer that along with the actual GE - it wouldn't be an "IF you elect us" thing. A democratic second chamber? - we've been waiting for this since '97. Does it mean we'll be able to get rid of Lord Mandleson?. An open prison for single mothers? - paraphrasing of course. A drinks ban for yobs? - how is this even enforceable to say nothing of affordable?. No compulsory I.D cards? - Great, but you already announced this. The big evil is the database itself and we all know it.
I don't think they understand, they can promise anything and everything, the problem is the average person has lost all trust and faith in them due to the promises they have made and never delivered. They could offer the world and a lot of people would still think "Yea, I don't see any flying pigs.".
-----------------
Great post, very well said. In regards to the referendum point as well, I'm stunned Gordon thinks anyone will believe that after they reneged on their previous referendum promise before the last election. Does he think we're all that stupid?
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No free speech then here on this blog. Comments attacking Labour with abusive language, no problem for the moderators, critise the 'Sun' and you are referred to the moderators. I wonder why.
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I understand the dismay with Brown and co., but still struggle with the following questions:
* Do I really want this country to return to the days of Thatcher and Major? Tory "sleaze"? The greed, decay and decline of the 80s?
* If not the Tories and not Labour, what are the alternatives? Libs? Too inexperienced. BNP? Too extreme and dangerous.
In many ways, I can't help thinking: "Better the devil you know..."
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The Sun is only interested in increasing its readers. I think they are rather behind the times, 'Labour lost it' a long time ago, it took The Sun a long time to realise it though.
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Doncha just love the Sun being given the tsk a tsk treatment by the BBBC a la NR?
We have listened to drivel and pap from the Beeb over so much that was indefensible, we've had the Paxman do his sneer at everyone else bit, serious journalism has died a death.
So might I suggest that you don't get snotty with the Sun, the Mail or any other publication that happens to support the Tories , they merely provide a balance to the Guardian and the BBBC.
If any of you have ever read Toynbee ,Ashley , Whyte et al you will know what I mean!
We seem to have a new labour supporter on castigating the Sun by the name of hermanworm.
He seems to be suggesting that Pascoe Watson was cheesed off with Uni educated BBBC persons.
I have checked his background and have to say it is impressive, he is well educated and well rounded so I hae ma doots as they say!
Could'nt be another poster in disguise could it??
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Thought I would read 'The Sun' (online) article before commenting here. The editorial seems quite sensible, pointing out that Brown's final speech to Conference had no plan to reduce the debt, and seemed to consist of a series of unfunded aspirations. It also pointed out Labour's educational failures.
I thought Brown's speech was well-delivered and had a few good jokes. However, its content was poor and didn't address the central issues of the day, but it could perhaps be recycled by a new Labour leader in about 2035 when the UK's debt has been reduced to manageable proportions (technical note: this is the estimated date by which the UK's debt will have been reduced to a sustainable level of 40% of GDP).
So for the first time in my life I will buy a copy of 'The Sun' and keep it as an historical document.
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Perhaps that is why Kinnock was so emphatically enraptured by Brown's speach - he spotted one of his ilk - a total failure.
Now all Brown has to do is get a little office on the world stage and cream off a few million to feel vindicated.
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Well labours media supporters are gradually realising the complete hopelessness of their position.
Really its just the BBC left as labour cheerleader...
However it is clear that labour are expecting you to end your labour bias soon (and become independent again) - they are preparing by spinning that you are already pro tory - ha ha ha.
The internet preserves peoples words for easy public reference, there will be questions to answer for many, many journalists.
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Isn't this a case of the media once again taking itself too seriously.
Despite what one response says the Sun's Circulation is 3.1m (August 2009), variously .64% or 2.25% down on a year ago. It's still the biggest selling paper, but like every paper except the Daily Star it is losing circulation.
So of those remaining readers, how many don't vote, or ignore the Sun's 'advice'.
As you say, The Sun doesn't like to be on the losing side, it's a moot point who is leading who. I suspect that it's rather more a case that the Sun is responding to what everyone sees as the inevitable; that Labour will lose the next election.
TG
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#64 quietoldinthetooth
Your comment has just brightened up a dull looking day. Thanks….lol
Nick who was it that sang The SUN ain’t gonna shine anymore. Rather apt, under the circumstances, I would say.
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@42 squiddy
lol, we're in teh middle of the worts recession sinec the 30's and you think things are picking up?!!! All teh actions of this government have been geared to one thing - a false dawn that defers the pain until after the election.
Unemployment is going through the roof, interest rates are still at their lowest ever level to try and reinflate the bubble and that's while the BOE has created a few hundred billion in funny money.
Bank balance sheets are the biggest lie since Labour's last manifesto and a few extra houses being sold at vastly inflated prices does not denote a recovery....
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5. sagaminx wrote:
well fair enough - the Sun represents all that is third rate and tawdry and deserving of contempt in this country, and so it's only right and proper they align themselves with the Conservative Party
==============================================
And presumably that's why the paper that "represents all that is third rate and tawdry and deserving of contempt in this country" has supported New Labour for most of the past 13 years.
Perhaps they have finally seen the light, which is more than can be said of people like you.
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James Murdoch and George Osborne buddies? I wonder if that's got anything to do with the profit-making Ofcom (it generates 400 million pounds) being at the top of the Torie's cull of the Quangos ill-judged.
Hmmmmmmm, when exactly will the truly gullible British public realise that there's an anti-BBC agenda being fuelled by someone who stands to make huge profits on the back of the BBC's demise?
FOX News in the UK here we come.
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The Sun's lost it - they've sold the working man to the wolves.
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A paper built on the working class. It`s bye bye Sun and if Murdoch is reading it is bye bye Sky as well.
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Why does no rival media organisation ever find out what the terms & conditions behind these deals with murdoch?
Personally i reckon its bad news for the beeb, because the obvious deal this time is murdoch backing in return for dismemberment of the BBC. The tories have been hinting at bbc reform for months & every day there is an anti-beeb story in your daily paper, softening up the masses for the changes to come.
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Anyone who heard james Murdoch's speech the other week would have predicted this. As James said, the bottom line is profit. As a top priority,News International wants to break up the BBC and hand over a goodly part of the licence fee to its TV/online news. They think they have a better chance of achieving this with the Conservatives. It was weakly admitted by the Sun spokesman on Breakfast this morning that Murdoch had a good deal to do with the decision. To put some balance into the situation, bring back Jasper Carrott and his 'The Stun' presentations.
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If Gordon really does care compassionately about this Country - and Sarah assures us he does - he must realise that he has blown his last chance and should now resign and call an election.
He won't of course. Only he, he tells us, has the God given right to run UKplc and he is the right man for the job.
I'm sure he means well, but any other person in his position would surely accept the the best thing now would be to go.
With 'The Sun' now against him he needs to be prepared for hostile headlines and ridicule - remember the Kinnock lightbulb?
Whether Cameron & Co can do better, I don't know. What I and many others do know however, is that Brown and Co are no longer capable of governing.
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The guy is so arrogant I can barely listen to him anymore! I don't want a TV debate because I cannot stand anymore of his excuses, U-turns, dithering and downright lies and re-writing of history! The man is an utter fraud!
In 7 months we'll all be able to cast a vote a get rid of this unelected weasel.
Like many millions I've made up my mind. I don't need to hear anymore from this man or his party.
I'm shutting off from the hooo-har of the next few months. I'll then re-awake on election day and then spend all night watching the political slaughtering of GB and his weak Cabinet wanabees! Bliss!
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69#
That makes it three things they've adopted from the BNP...
1) Open Prisons for Pregnant Teenagers
2) British Jobs For British Workers and
3) Operation Fightback.
All documented BNP. As the contributor says, following your link, "No wonder Tebbit called the BNP "Labour with added racism""
makes you wonder what on earth they are thinking in the bunker and how they really didnt think it through... they couldnt have done.
What a mess.
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I made the comment that the Sun has never actually "supported" Labour, it just jumped ship six weeks before the 1997 election when it was clear Labour would win by a landslide.
It has followed exactly the same path for the last 12 years, "supporting" Labour only because it was clearly going to win in 2001 and 2005.
Now it looks like Labour will lose, they have jumped ship the other way.
Why has my comment been "referred to the moderators"?
In any case, The Sun would have looked less craven had they shifted their support when Brown got in, for example
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#82 thanks hope I've passed a little sun shine your way ?Perhaps you might join fubar and a few more of us in future when the belt tightens?
Their a busted flush and they know it .
How many days two go I know you keep the score?
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Maybe I'm wrong Nick, but I thought he was going to get away from listing out all the "achievements" that he personally, and alone, has been responsible for, but no. On the news clip that I saw, there he was itemsing a list of historic "achievements", few of which stand up to forensic analysis, whilst having no acknowledgement of the new reality.
Where's he going to find the money for all the "new" ideas?
Who's he think he's talking to? A bunch of dummies?
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@85 nonsense
The gullible British public have been voting Labour for the last 12 years so they're not going to catch on too quick....
Having said that, although I'm not anti BBC they certainly need cutting down to size. It has become as bloated as the public sector and does a poor job of impartiality. Nick Robinson being the prime culprit, his Labour sycophancy is stomach churning, I think I'm going to see if the bookies will take a bet on him losing his job in July 2010!!
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"The paper - which is first and foremost a commercial product - tends to follow its readers' views rather than set them".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nick Robinson
You know that this statement is disingenuous - why did you write it?
News organisations, even if their articles are written from an independent perspective, have the power to form, and do form, their readers' opinions with the editiorial content alone.
For example, fill a paper with crime and disorder day in, day out (and there is plenty as we're a country of 60 million people) and people will think there's a big crime problem, etc etc etc.
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Had to laugh about the proposed clamp down on breaches of ASBOs. It won't happen!
ASBOs are are CIVIL matter, breaching one is a CRIME.
Doing anything about a breach puts up the crime figures. Ergo it won't happen.
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Nick the SUN certainly is shining, I have just been granted my dearest wish:
Tony Blair ‘will end exile’ to campaign for Labour at general election.
Teflon Tony, Meddlesome, Duff and Ali, the NuLabour Project architects all onboard the train when it crashes.
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polero @ 18
millions of people read The Sun daily
read? - mmm - hey but just think about an election won WITHOUT any votes from Sun "readers" !! - would be such a clean mandate, wouldn't it?
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75#
"Tory "sleaze"? The greed, decay and decline of the 80s?"
Well, depends what you think is worse and what will be over sooner, I guess... So far as Tory sleaze was concerned, bad as it was, the perpetrators pretty much all paid with the loss of their seats or were forced to resign and in some cases went to jail.
NL sleaze on the other hand... where do you begin? Twice forced to resign MP comes back ennobled and is now the de facto Deputy PM? Not to mention all the others who have had to be dragged out kicking and screaming or only left when Blair jumped, like Two Jags. None of them have truly been punished or prosecuted for what they have done. Depends how sleazy you like your political sleaze.
And as for the greed, decay and decline of the 80's.... what, compared to the greed, decay and decline of the noughties that we are seeing now?
Do you see a difference? Only one I can see is that the pain was largely felt by the manufacturing and primary industry sectors back then... the service sector was emergent in terms of its contribution to the balance of payments.. what we have now is a more niche manufacturing base which hasnt exactly been encouraged and expanded and the financial/service sector taking a significant hit in terms of greed, decay and decline. Yes, I grant you, a significant portion of it self inflicted - as could arguably be said about Coal, Steel and British Leyland, amongst others - otherwise, the same faults of short term planning, myopic industrial relations with the dinosaur unions, etc etc...
As you rightly say, you're left with a stark choice and indeed some will go with the devil they know. However, if the only devil they have ever known goes by the name of New Labour... well, that's their look-out.
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86#
Sold the working man to the wolves?
Well, chances are, the wolves may be more merciful - the end would come quicker and cleaner.
As it stands at the moment, Gordon and Alistair and the BoE are busy selling your children and your grandchildrens futures to the Middle East and the Chinese. They're going to be in hock to them for the next 40 years.
Think I'd prefer the wolves myself.
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Nick, I saw your interview on BBC Breakfast this morning and you said that Labour saw it coming (losing the support of the Sun). If that is true, why did Gordon Brown give a speech that was littered with the same old cliches, lies and spin, and new policy announcements that have not been properly costed, and will probably never happen (like many others)?
Many voters are likely to have already decided that this failed government that has used lies and spin to hold onto power is no longer worthy of looking after our interests. If Gordon Brown was my bank manager, I'd have moved my account years ago!
However, I'm still not sure about the Tories. Their conference is next week and it's going to be very interesting to see what policies they announce, if any, and to see the reaction of The Sun.
This time next week, Murdoch Jnr might be regretting his decision!
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I`ll be ringing up my local ZaNuLab operatives later on this morning and congratulating them on their Glorious Leader`s triumph against adversity.
Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha.....ha,ha.
P.S Don`t worry El Gordo,General Steiner is coming to the rescue!
P.P.S Is it possible to overdose on gloating?:)
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Is anyone really supirsed after yesterdays speech. A bit like his budget speeches. Sounded good at the time; but when you take time to look at the small print - its a right con.
Gordon should have had a bit of humility, espcially on the subject of anti social behaviour which now blights most streets in this country. Labour`s social engineering is at the heart of the problem as well as micro manangement of the police. If you pay dysfunctional parents more on benefits,to stay at home and become idle,than to get off their back sides and find a job what can you expect?Their take on life will only be passed onto their kids who have now gone through Labours one size fits all education system, which has failed to address the issue that not every one is an academic.
The police service has been so micro managed and feminised where diversity is more than importnat than getting out on the streets and nicking the wrong doers and putting them before the court who are more able to deal with them on an individual basis rather than avoiding that course of action at all costs by cautioning and issuing fixed penalty
tickets etc etc.
Our streets are now, "policed," by 17,000 school prefects (PCSOs) which the yobs just take the mick out of. Just where have all our police gone to? The volume of crime is now at 1980s levels, the police service has never been better funded and the number of real police officers is at an historic high. Our daily lives are monitored by hundreds of thousands of cctvs; but why have the police withdrawn themselves from the streets - only responding with blues and twos to incidents which they class as emergencies. Is it because they have to meet some government target set by some jobsworth?
In my county the police are now building police stations with no front office and are either closing or restricting the hours of opening at others. Contact with the public, except by telephone to a control room that may as well be in India, is the only option.
We no longer have well rounded police officers who are capable of dealing with most things. Every aspect of police work is now compartmentalised, with a, "its not my job mentality". Like many other public sector services, it has has become no more than a job creation scheme that is getting in the way of sorting these yobs out who seem to be getting yuonger by the day.
It will be interesting to see what policies DC has on the police; it maybe time for a Royal Commission to restore faith in the justice system. Sacking the PCSOs, an experiment in policing which has been a total disaster, would be a start. That would give the Sun good headlines for its readers.
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Brown needs to stick his policies where the Sun doesn't shine.
Same old policies, same old Sarah.
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100 sagamix
I presume the read query relates to how many read the Sun columnist opinions. Certainly in the hard copy editions know one knows, but in the on-line version it is technically feasible to derive the "hit" statistics and then show which stories are read most etc. Then again how to measure if an opinion column had the desired effect or not? My vote is still private, right? Please say right...
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The Sun is only reflecting what the rest of the country has been thinking for a long time.
As someone said during an american presidential election:
"Its the economy stupid!"
Someone should tell Gordon Brown that on the one hand he has given away hard-earned taxpayers money to the banks and financial service. On the other he is telling the country that he has to make 'tough choices' and expect cuts in public services.
What does Gordon Brown expect? A standing ovation!
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EQ @ 35
I have to say, the speech itself didn't really rouse me at all
well GB is not a very arousing sort of a guy, Emily, he doesn't quicken my pulse either, to be honest with you - but how about Lord M the day before? ... that was a bit more colourful, wasn't it?
something @ 36
I get the feeling that the Sun looked at Brown's speech and thought "What a load of c...
did you? - how strange because I get the feeling it was an "article" which was saved on both network and hard drive well before they ever saw the speech? - funny these feelings, aren't they? - wonder who's right?
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Nick:
I live in an English constituency, but is there any way I can vote SNP to help the cause of Scottish independence?
It is true that, if Scotland had gained independence in the 1990s, we in England would have been deprived of the political genius of Brown, Bliar, Darling, Cook, the other Browne, Alexander and so on (and on and on....I lose count of the Scots in this government). We would also have had to get by without HBOS, RBS, the Dunfermline Building Society, Sir Fred....
But I think we might have coped..............
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Nicholas - I do not read headlines so much now - I spin them. Apt or what? Cheaper than those expensive electronic brain workers for us elderly.
Let us not care what the particular newspapers say because they in my opinion are mostly Public Relation organs - badly out of tune most times too.
Fairweather friends are too too common. I prefer real supporters - not those who allegedly bend at the first sign of grief!
It was the grand Son what spun it - again allegedly.
Subject: sun withdraws support for labour - Labour has lost
Anagram: Paul - USA borrow - PR shutdowns - frit - Labs routs halo
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
David Cameron is being interviewed by Nick Ferrari and by listeners phoning in at the moment, on LBC. A wonderful programme which allowers the public to have their say.
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@99 roll_on
Are you sure that's a good thing? Despicable though Tony may be he has charisma and is a far better liar than Brown. He could well actually help Labour get some votes from certain idiots
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Has the Sun ever supported Gordon Brown or Labour? They supported Tony
Blair and are now in every household? Backing the poll leader and favourite is a commercial decision but what is revealing is that they hedged their bets by inviting GB to their corporate bash last night and promised not to humiliate him like Neil Kinnock.Is there an element of doubt within the Murdock Empire as to the outcome? Give me McGuire before McKenzie any day I just can't stand the Tory Press and it means
more Labour readers for the Mirror!!!
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@100 saga
Are you saying that Labour have had a dirty mandate for the last 12 years then? It's certainly felt that way living through it....
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97#
I think Nick's statement is partly right. Pragmatism has to be a factor amongst editors, because unless the press is a state owned mouthpiece, they are a commercial product and survival depends on shifting product.
Therefore, if you judge the customers mood and give them what they think they want, they will lap it up. Its following that and keeping your finger on the pulse that is difficult, so I can accept that part of Nick's statement.
Yours is also correct though in that once you've established your "credentials" for want of a better word, you can start using that to influence, hence Murdoch, Paul Dacre, and arguably even Kevin McGuire. The faux-outrage/whats-going-to-kill-us-today sensationalism of the Mail I find to be the most depressing of the lot. The Sun merely appeals to the lowest common denominator. Each of them has a target market and will have a reasonable, but not excessive amount of sway in influencing the voters. The Sun may like to blow its own trumpet about what it manages to achieve, but it is so Celeb obsessed that I dont place any real credence on it, although sometimes its political editors can be quite insightful, in their own way. It likes to overstate what it has achieved, which is why it and New Labour made for good bedfellows over the last 12 years. If I was NL, I'm not 100% sure I'd be too concerned about the loss of the Sun, although it is not a prudent thing to do to make an enemy of the Murdochs. Its a bit like being in a boat which is on fire and whilst you're throwing teacups of water on the flames in a desperate attempt to put them out, you turn round and realise that there is a hole below the waterline at the other end.
Eitherway, you're doomed. You're either going to sink or burn. Its a problem you could do without.
However, the day they lose the Mirror, then they really are completely stuffed. I think that might be a little way off yet. Depends what kind of infighting goes on when Brown jumps to the G20 and leaves the burning, sinking NL ship to the mercy of the cruel sea of public opinion.
The BBC on the other hand... well, thats a bit more complex. It is quite obvious that around the time of Dr David Kelly and the big fuss immediately afterwards, the removal of Greg Dyke and all that went with it... something has been going on behind the scenes at Wood Lane.
"Nation will speak Truth Unto Nation", the motto is meant to be. I think that has, regrettably become more than a little stretched over the last 5 years and the conduct of the lobby has had a not insignificant part in it. Choices were obviously made, the organisation, whilst being a public service broadcaster and obviously to a degree under government control (certainly regarding current and future funding models) has made political choices which may or may not have the desired effect going forward under a new regime. Cause and effect.
Maybe more pragmatism and less troughing and left leaning was what was required. More honesty, less rolling over around the time of Kelly, more standing up for the truth under the Dyke regime than what they got.
The BBC are a PUBLIC service broadcaster. They belong to the nation, to the people, not to the governing party, otherwise they are not part of a free media.
But, as with everything else NL have touched, with their obsessiveness for top down centralised control, important elements appear to have been politicised.
What happens after the election is simply cause and effect following questionable short term decision making at the highest level. IMVHO, natch.
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#102 Fubar_Saunders
Fubar_Saunders
Congrats, only 10 out.
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Saga @100.
Don't know what your point is.
If you are suggesting that no Sun readers will vote for the Tories,then you have to follow your argument to the conclusion that newspapers,broadcasters etc have no influence on voters.
OK?..so; from where do the electorate get the information they need to make informed decisions?
Or are you now putting forward the proposition that the whole electorate is simply tribal?
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My word! The Sun supporting the likely winner! Who'da thunk it?
It's the same behaviour you often see in voting patterns where people desert the sinking ship. I'm not even sure they do it consciously, they just want to be associated with winners, not losers. It doesn't matter if no-one knows, they still feel like a winner.
For all the Sun's support, I just can't see any reason to vote for Cameron's Conservatives. "They're not Gordon Brown" seems to be the only reason to vote for them, and that seems a remarkably poor reason to me. On that basis I might as well vote for the BNP. I'd like to see some policy details and firm manifesto commitments- I'd like to see what they propose to do on crime, Afghanistan and Iraq, national debt, benefit dependency and that old favourite, mass immigration to the UK. They've been very quiet so far, which is probably a bad sign.
I'd like to actually see some detail of what the Conservatives will do in office- for the last couple of years Cameron has been turning every time the wind blows. I know that "when the facts changes, I change my opinions", but I would like to see some long-term goal, other than gaining power.
Personally I believe that Cameron will be a disaster. I don't see George Osborne is much better.
And, before you all start, I won't be voting Labour.
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H66 @ 78
Thought I would read 'The Sun' (online) article before commenting here
that is very commendable, John ... I feel ashamed now!
IDL @ 60
I can't wait for the pictures of his face superimposed on various root vegetables!! In fact I would even buy the Sun every time they did such a thing
tell you what, there's some deep thinkers on here and that's no lie
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The Sun has it spot on. Brown's speech was heralded in advance as the turning point in Labour's fortunes. And to judge from the sycophants in the audience with the far away dreamy look that Meg Ryan had after her scene in the cafe in When Harry met Sally you would have thought he had nailed it. There were the Kinnocks, the same former leader Neil who had blown his own chances on the very beach that lay just yards from Brown's latest adverised Dunkirk. They nodded furiously at every word like those toy dogs in the backs of car windows. There was Lord Snooty, who had probably written the whole thing, doing his "thats my boy" look, and there were erstwhile leaders like Harriet looking in much the same way as the disciples must have looked a few years earlier.
What we got was the word change and then nothing that came remotely close to that promise, except in the minds of those who thought they were witnessing a suicide announcement. What we did also get was a package of measures, almost all of which were either rehashed or revisions to previous failures from the government like abolishing 24-year drinking. There was a promise of barrack rooms (that is what we used to have in the army in the 50s) for teenage pregnant mums and some extrea help for us oldies. None of it was costed, although there was the usual indictment of Cameron for not costing his plans.
I turned off half way through and watched Monk. Preposterous stuff, but then preposterous was what had changed from. And that was the only real change of the afternoon.
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85#
The gullible British public... yep, thats what happens when you dumb down.
Cause and effect. Those who didnt dumb down got out.
Be prepared for it to get worse.
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@110 friendly
lol, let me know if there is a way to vote for them...
I'm all for Scottish independence, then we can be English rather than British once more. Nothing annoys me more than those damn nationality dropdwon lists that dont even contain the word Englsih!!
Actually that's a lie, I get more annoyed about paying for their free university paces, dentists, massive unemployment rate etc.
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I seem to be reading above that Labour has suddenly lost the support of the Sun. It lost it years ago, if it ever really had it. This has nothing to do with Gordon Brown's address to the Labour Party conference. The Sun would have run this headline whatever his speech was like. That is obvious from the paper's headlines and editorials from the past three years. Anyone who tunes into Sky News can see the bias of this media group. Compare Sky News, BBC News, ITV News and Channel Four News and you really will see the difference in political bias. I know which one I prefer, but I'm not telling. It's the one, for me, which gives the most in-depth, feature length and least biased reports on things. It rarely fails me. I've been watching it for years, even when I had a job in the media and had greater access to instant news.
The Sun headline and article has nothing to do with Gordon Brown's speech and little to do with events and policies over the past years. I have read it. It is a negative take on a few aspects of the speech which has everything to do with the political bias of the Murdoch media organisation. I suggest James Murdoch gets out more and meets some real people, particularly his readers.
PS, the sun (in the sky) has been out in this part of the world for the past fortnight. It's gone in today!
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saga:
"I get the feeling it was an "article" which was saved on both network and hard drive well before they ever saw the speech"
Well, if Nick gets a preview of stuff before Gordon comes out with it (after all, he's always telling us "The Prime Minister will say later today..."), what makes you think the Currant Bun doesnt?
Or didnt, more to the point?
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hunter @ 12
I'm wiping tears of mirth from my eyes
GSOH ... very important! ... are you catching those latest reruns of On The Buses?
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105#
++applause++
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No doubt today will be another "delayed moderation event" LOL
You can`t turn back the tide of history,BBC!
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But of course all this points to a certain reactionary in the united states
Remember him I HAD A DREAM................
Browns dream is over ?
Head lines lab-ours lost it?
Got it wrong there Nulabour waisted it not lost it.
Put all these blogs together and after reading through you will find a vast amount of money will have to be payed back by yours and mine grand children and great grand children ?
Then take another look at nulabours big top circus.
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@saga
I notice that your post frequency seems to increase from 9am, which is the start of most people's working day... Call me suspicious, but it's almost as if this posting lark is your job. Any comments?
p.s. I've got the day off today before you ask. Nobody tell the wife I'm blogging instead of packing or there'll be hell to pay!!
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There are a few questions to be answered here:
1. Does The Sun pay any UK corporation tax?
2. If not, should there be emergency legislation guillotined through Parliament which bans any tax avoiding corporation from expressing political opinions in the UK national media or on any UK based website?
3. If not, should Gordon Brown interfere sufficiently maliciously in the daily operations of News International that it becomes impossible for the Sun to be distributed for the next 9 months?
4. If not, does it not become apparent that the UK political process has been bent to the will of an unelected US magnate who thinks that bombing the life out of 100,000 Iraqis is an acceptable mechanism for controlling the spot price of oil??
5. Under such circumstances is the death of one UK executive, namely his son, a greater crime?
6. If not, what does that say about the racism of the UK and the US?
Mr Murdoch Junior needs to be told, without negotiation, that either his corporation pays taxes OR he shuts up for 9 months OR his entire UK media operation is shut down.
Authoritarian dictatorial behaviour toward Mr Murdoch?
I'm sure he's never been on the RECEIVING end of that has he???
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Saga:
"just think about an election won WITHOUT any votes from Sun "readers" !! - would be such a clean mandate, wouldn't it?"
It would certainly be a cleaner one than Gordon has got now... He didnt even secure a mandate from his own party, let alone the electorate and he's got more hope of knitting fog than getting one now.
He probably thinks "mandates" are weekend social activities in Hampstead for Ben Bradshaw and Lord Minky....
Personally, I'd rather just "think about an election" and hope the days draw nearer to one... And I'd like Gordon to think about an election a lot more too. About calling one, very soon in fact.
As soon as he gets back to his hotel, preferably.
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Come on it was the Sun that done it? Not any more not with any traditional tabloid, that was 12 long years ago. In a digital age where we get all our information online via differing feeds the power of newspapers opinions has vastly diminished.
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#109 Saga
I didn't see Lord Mandleson the day before unfortunately. I did however see him at the end of the BBC's coverage of the prime ministers speech. I had pretty much the same reaction I always have when I see him, which is basically "Didn't you resign in disgrace a few times already, why are you still on my T.V?". I don't particularly distrust the prime minister as a man, more the people behind him making his policies. Lord Mandleson does not help, giving him any position of power demonstrates a complete contempt for the British public. Before you say it, I felt the same way about Jeffrey Archer. It's not a party politics issue. It's like when people complain about Gordon Brown being appointed as prime minister, the same was true of John Major -- had I been old enough to understand politics at that time I would not of liked that either. Just because one party has done it doesn't mean another should with impunity.
These are the kind of reforms that would grab me and are the kind of things he should've mentioned in his speech. Electoral reform referenda can't be trusted because the promise of a referendum on the EU treaty was broken. He should also of been talking not about a democratic second chamber, because they've been promising this since '97. Instead he should have presented some ideas on legislating against the "british coup" and potential abuses of the MP expense claim system. There are many things he could've said to of made me think "Well, actually that sounds like some decent policy". Instead he just rattled off some new expensive sounding schemes and rehashed some old policy that they've been promising for 12 years.
Essentially he told the people in the conference hall what they wanted to hear instead of what I as a floating voter wanted to hear. Which is fine as it goes, but it doesn't win an additional vote. I'm sure there are plenty of in-depth political points you can make in reference to my post. The point is, I am relatively new to politics and don't know all the inside complexities -- but neither does the average voter. I'm the kind of person he needs to convince. He didn't do that I'm afraid.
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124. I_Despise_Labour:
"then we can be English rather than British once more..."
Exactly! It's interesting (though nauseating) to see how often Brown takes famous quotes on ENGLISH liberty, values and so on but twists it as BRITISH. He even twists the (Socialist) George Orwell from "English" to "British" on this subject
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@120 potatolord
But if we all throw our protest vote somewhere other than the tories there is a risk that Labour could still win, or certainly reappear far too soon (never is too soon as far as I'm concerned but....)
Until the majority of the public use their vote and also start to think in terms outside con/lab/lib there is little option.
I really want to vote UKIP as I dont trust the Tories to take us out of Europe, but I'm not going to take the risk of Labour sneaking in again. It's not just a case of they're not Gordon Brown, it's that they are best placed to remove Labour.
I feel that it is imperative for the good of this country (England) for Labour to be annihilated never to darkjen our shores again. Scotland can keep them
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121#
You obviously dont count yourself amongst the deep thinkers then mate?
More amongst the... how to put it... "tangential" ones?
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A speech of drivel, to an audience of dorks. Uncosted, spouting, anti family - this Clown is the WORST PM EVER- thank the good Lord we have only got to suffer him and his bunch of liars for a few more months.
Sarah gets wheeled out - what next from the son of the manse - resurrecting his parents???????? - TOTALLY SICK AND PURE DESPERATION.
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@saga 121
Yes I know, but unfortunately there's a few shallow thinkers who believe anything that a labour mouthpiece tells them.
Let us Labour haters have our fun on this happy day...Right, I'm off to get a copy of the sun laminated and framed.
Anyone got any prefrences on what the Sun should use to superimpose Brown's head on? I'd like a potato first I think. Get your suggestions in quick before the thread closes, we'll be lucky to make midday...!
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Hmmmm, the proprietor of, I believe The Times and The Sun. An antipodean chap I believe. Strange how we never hear of him poking his finger into Australian politics. I think the action of the Sun will actually do labour more good than harm in the long run. After all, without being in any way snobbish, it is not a newspaper renowned for its veracity, or indeed its measured approach. Indeed it is a bit like Gordon Brown in that currently, "Empty Vessels make the most noise"
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So the comic has turned ..anyone who buys this comic just does so for the pictures because it contains no sensible comment on anything...I am afraid this "" sensation "" has just made me more determined to support Labour and help to continue the recovery from the world recession..anyone who thinks the Tories will do that are sadly misguided
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sagamix - your loyalty to the Labour project is touching, but surely even you in your heart of hearts can see they are a busted flush. Just look around you at the consequences of 12 years of Labour misrule. A massive structural Budget deficit which will force a severe retrenchment in public spending, whichever party is in power. A top down, target driven culture which has actually prevented professionals such as the police from doing their jobs properly, not to mention all the political correctness and red tape they are bound up in. A one size fits all education system not fit for purpose, which panders to the average, inflates exam grades and fails to stretch our most talented students. A lack of border controls, in part encouraged by laws and policies introduced by Labour since 1997.
We have had enough and we want change. Labour do not represent change - they represent more of the same. It is that simple!
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132#
Crikey. And I thought I was a ranter.
Its just pure, naked, unadulterated, unashamed communism. You're not an NL PPC, I trust? Or a nom de plume for Tony Woodley?
So, Gordons tax loopholes arent his fault then... You also going to tell that to Cadbury, SABMiller, BAT, Rolls-Royce, Vodafone, Standard Chartered and the rest.....?
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Nick,
Given the pro Labour BBC stance perhaps The Sun is adding some balance.
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After watching Gord being interviewd by Adam Boulton this morning, the men in whites coats are going to pay him a visit very soon!!
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Nick says that The Sun is first and foremost a commercial product, which tends to follow its readers' views rather than set them.
Therefore the decision of the Scottish Sun editor not to back the Tories is highly significant because this editor knows that he cannot afford to alienate his readership in Scotland by supporting the unpopular Tories up there, where they have a single MP.
All grist to the Scottish (and English) independence mill.
PS. After reading Peggy Noonans book 'What I saw at the Revolution', this blogger certainly came to appreciate what a great political speech-writer could do. It is unfortunate for Gordon Brown that he cannot seem to find one.
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135#
In fairness to Major, at least he faced a meaningful competition for the place and was elected by members of his own party.
The Golum just bullied everyone out of the way with his attack dogs - Whelan, Balls, McBride, Draper - threatening to smear them if they stood against him.
Hardly a fair contest and not really comparing like with like. I agree with the general premise though, of if the PM goes, then there should be a GE, but unfortunately, thats not the legal position and chances are it'll not change in a long while yet.
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I have to say I was getting a little worried that there were so many positive vibes coming from the BBC about GB and labour that the momentum may begin to switch to them. This news dispelled all those thoughts because it says more about who Murdoch thinks will win rather than who he wants to win. The latter is pretty irrelevant he always backs the winner to get an easier life from the next government.
I don't believe that the Sun will convince labour voters to vote tory but the constant reinforcement will shore up their current support.
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Whether or not 'The Sun' plays any part in the deciding the voting intentions of people at the next election is a minor concern to that of what part the BBC may play. As a completely independent news network it should, of course, be free of any political influence whatsoever.
But, as many of us on this and other moderated blogs know, you will often, rightly or wrongly, make a judgement as to what, if any, political leanings the blog owner(s) may have by what gets referred and what gets published.. The standard of moderation can vary within the same organisation too. Post on this blog for instance, mention 'English Parliament' and all seems ok. Try using the same phrase on Have Your Say and it often gets you rejected.
In spite of what many say, I feel that the Beeb, while not perfect, is probably a bit on the 'Left' side of neutral. I can live with that.
What does concern me though, is that the current whispers, guesses or speculation about what may happen to BBC funding should the Tories get in, may have some influence on their reporting standards in the run up to the election. I hope not.
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142#
Ah, thats nice. At least whoever does sink with the ship will have some company in the wheelhouse as it disappears below the waves for a generation.
You could maybe even share a final cigar as the sea mist closes in on the doomed wreck... (I can hear the Hamlet advert music already....)
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It seems the moderator did not like my insinuation that the BBC is pro Labour and that The Sun could be seen to be offering balance. Amazing - I do't think so.
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"We've changed the world once; comrades we can change the world for a second time." [rapturous applause.......]
Wot ???
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In Italy, mr. Berlusconi has 60% of consensus… all thanks to the media backing him, hence do not underestimate their power.
Saying that… do Labours seriously think they will win if The Sun didn’t switch side?
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*133
Fubar -- how did you get away with that crack about mandates on your post?
A classic!!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The Sun does not elect governments sez Brown , but it did destroy the ambitions of Kinnock and may very well make Brown such a figure of ridicule that he will be unelectable.He did forget some of Labour's achievements in his speech yesterday ; 5.5 million people either unemployed or on benefit, 1 million illegal immigrants,record numbers of government employees,record number of civil rights lawyers and cases, record number of people without access to a NHS dentist,record crime levels, 250 dead British soldiers in Afghanistan, record number of people in jail, record mumber of drug and alchohol addicts, record numbers of illiterate children and a record amount of false MP's expence claims ; magnificent achievement..
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23
But you were okay as long as they were telling the dumbed down masses to vote Labour?
To be clear, I dislike the Sun with great intensity. It is a terrible piece of journalism, insufferable in both its arrogance and ignorance.
But plenty of people get their news from it. If week in week out they are attacking Brown's stuff ups instead of defending them, the base element of society (Labour's core vote) will not be so quick to vote their way come election time.
This really is game up I'm afraid.
Brown actually performed quite well in a radio interview this morning. I found a shred of respect for the man, and almost felt a little sorry for him.
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Of course The Sun will follow the popular mood-that is why The Scottish Sun is not endorsing the Tories. What is so depressing is that Brown/Blair were the true inheritors of Thatcherism. Brown was a free market chancellor-an advocate of "light touch" regulation, offshore tax havens,banking bonuses and all that.We are now about to hand back power to the true "free market" party,who ideologically hate market regulation,love tax havens,think taxation is robbery, and public spending of all types encourages irresponsibility and social breakdown.This is going to be a very interesting election!
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25. At 01:00am on 30 Sep 2009, Richard Carling wrote:
The government owned shares in the 'failed' banks are now worth £80bn and climbing. Is GB waiting for the recovery so he can cash in and then call/fight an election with much less of a debt problem?
Since current market capitalsiation of RBS and Lloyds combined stands at around 57bn today even GB couldn't spin that sort of value
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The Sun newspaper and the Conservative party deserve each other!
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135. At 09:38am on 30 Sep 2009, EmilyQuango wrote:
#109 Saga
I didn't see Lord Mandleson the day before unfortunately. I did however see him at the end of the BBC's coverage of the prime ministers speech. I had pretty much the same reaction I always have when I see him, which is basically "Didn't you resign in disgrace a few times already, why are you still on my T.V?". I don't particularly distrust the prime minister as a man, more the people behind him making his policies. Lord Mandleson does not help, giving him any position of power demonstrates a complete contempt for the British public.........
**********************************
How right you are Emily. As I and others have mentioned on earlier blogs Mandelson's presence is often given as a prime reason for dropping support for Labour. In days of old such a person would not have come back once let alone twice.
Probably every description from 'brilliant politician' to 'conniving little toad' and any quality in between, can be appled to him with some element of truth. The one word that doesn't fit him is 'trustworthy'
With so many reasons for not trusting any politician, he represents everything that the public don't like about politics. Whatever praises Gordon may sing about him, he is a liability.
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157. At 10:20am on 30 Sep 2009, kaybraes wrote:
.....He did forget some of Labour's achievements in his speech yesterday ; 5.5 million people either unemployed or on benefit, 1 million illegal immigrants,record numbers of government employees,record number of civil rights lawyers and cases, record number of people without access to a NHS dentist,record crime levels, 250 dead British soldiers in Afghanistan, record number of people in jail, record mumber of drug and alchohol addicts, record numbers of illiterate children and a record amount of false MP's expence claims ; magnificent achievement..
********
He also forgot to mention his achievement of eliminating boom and bust - strange, that, after ramming it down our throats for so many years.
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140#
Got to be the Rutabagas... aka, the Swede Turnip.
"In continental Europe, it acquired a bad reputation during World War I, when it became a food of last resort. After the war, most people were so tired of rutabagas that they came to be considered "famine food," and they have retained this reputation to the present day." An appropriate simile.
Also:
"Prior to pumpkins being readily available in the UK and Ireland (a relatively recent development), swedes were hollowed out and carved with faces to make lanterns for Halloween. Often called "jack o'lanterns", or "tumshie lanterns" in Scotland, they were the ancient symbol of a damned soul." That sounds quite appropriate as well!
Not to mention that it is also:
"a cruciferous vegetable that belongs to the genus Brassica; Commonly reputed to not only increase flatulence, but to increase the pungency of the flatus."
Its the only natural choice!
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#148 Fubar
Major was also relatively quick to call a GE and gain a mandate. Two years in I think, as I said in my post I was young then( about 9 I think ). I left that out so Saga didn't unfairly call me a "tory". :D
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155#
I'm relieved that someone actually got it!
For what its worth, I thought about trying to make it a bit more obvious and then thought.... no, better not!
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Brown lost it six months into his unelected premiership and the dull mantras of change, fightback and renewal have turned off newspaper readers ever since. The Sun thought the Conservatives were electable back in 2008 so the headline is nothing new - except the smell of NUlab's defeat and more dull headlines have become overwhelming.
Labour's only hope of selling a message of change could be for Brown to resign (during the Conservative Party Conference) and then for Balls, Milliband and co to contest the leadership with a big change agenda and the Deputy PM holding the fort until the General Election.
Now that would spice up the headlines for the Sun.
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Who cares about the Sun's view.It's a newspaper that has only the "page 3 " girl claim to doing anything different and the quality of its reporters( MacKenzie and co.) shows the real quality of the Sun....yes ...absolute garbage
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I really don't know why GB bothered. Nu-Labour promised us a referendum on the EU Constitution, where our sovreignty is handed to Brussels; we didn't get one. No matter what is now promised by GB he can no longer be beleived. He has lost our trust. Go now !
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159#
"What is so depressing is that Brown/Blair were the true inheritors of Thatcherism."
Indeed. Because they realised it was the only way they were going to get elected. Socialism as a credible political force in Europe was dead as of 1991.
And it still is, no matter how much the Unions might want the corpse to be revived.
And, their hunger for power overtook their political principles and the rest is history. They realised that if the votes weren't going to come to them, then they had to go to where the votes were... which they did. Hence the "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich" quote and so on.
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great haye @ 158 ... wow ... you're now in my good books whether you like it or not!
RR @ 139
a speech of drivel to an audience of dorks
Ronnie! - thought you said you weren't posting any more 'cos "Fubar was saying it all for you?" - glad to see that's not the case ... you have your own very individual voice and it would have been a shame to lose it
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Great, so the Sun will now endorse privatisation of the NHS, massive public spending cuts, increased bonuses for all the tories' mates who work in the City and free moat cleaning services for Westminster employees. The Conservative party are NOT the party to represent the Sun's readers. They are capitalists who will only widen the gap between rich and poor. People should not underestimate the work Brown and Darling did to keep this country from going bust. Had Cameron been in charge, we would be in the same position as Iceland and Ireland.
The Sun should leave politics alone and stick to writing about Jordan and Peter, Brad and Angelina and all things Man Utd.
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Why should we the british public tolorate a newspaper such as the Sun to try and destroy any British Prime Minister? It is not their duty. What happened to newspapers reporting the news? Whether or not Gordon Brown can still fight an election, or if the Labour policies are sound, is the real issue. The difference between an interventionist government that will try and do something, rather than sit on its hands and let the econonomy and jobs fall, or a government that will do little to help the majority and protect the wealthy, is the real issue, not what the owner of the Sun thinks. The decision taken by the Sun not to back labour and in fact try to destroy Gordon Brown, is tantamount to subsidising the Tory party propoganda machine. I suspect also not by the editorial staff, as seen this morning on BBC Breakfast, but by the wealthy owner and friend of the Tory Shadow Chancellor. Do Sun readers realise that by buying the Sun Neswpaper they are actually helping to fund the Tory party? I haven't always agreed with Mr Brown, especially his raiding the pension funds and dropping the 10p tax band, but had the Tories been in power this last twelve months, I think the world would be in a much sorrier state. I'm still not sure about Gordon, but I am very sure about David Cameron and boy George and they are definately not for me. This is an interventionist world and it is getting more so each day. It has to be this way or we will all suffer serious consequences.
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#164 Fubar
You wrote
Not to mention that it is also:
"a cruciferous vegetable that belongs to the genus Brassica; Commonly reputed to not only increase flatulence, but to increase the pungency of the flatus."
Silly old me, I confused it with Brussels.......
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'Gordon shrugs off 'The Sun's decision to support the Tories.
Why oh Why then are so many other Labour spokespeople acting as if they've had their favourite teddy bear taken away?
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"When I listen to the politicians of this Labour Party I am physically sickened by the unbelievable belief they have, that they have achieved any progress in 12 years.
I actually feel very sorry for Brown and his followers because they really think the have made a positive difference to the people of this land but they are deluded they have failed us all socially, economically, morally, ethically and internationally. They need to be retired to a rest home while a new government gets on with catching up and restoring our position in the world and brings us back the rewards of our creativity and endeavour in technology restore our society and provides opportunity for all.
Economy higher unemployment the economy in taters prospects in a dire state unemployment to rise to over 3 million they inherited, as every labour government has, a sound economy and always left it in tatters
Brown lead of with a good start to his speech but like his government has over the years slowly ran out of steam
.
The Labour parties leading claim is health waiting lists down, how much is that steeling other peoples glory that is advances in medicine when my father went in to hospital with a heart attack in the fifties he was bedridden for 6 months when the first heart transplant took place the beneficiary was in intensive care for three months today some one has a new heart and is running a marathon in three months that is not government that is medical science technology not Gordon Brown. We have operation in a day visit that took weeks that is science not politics.
Education investment in building the windows in my sons school were fine twelve years ago now they leak like sieves and we can not get the funding to repair them they are continually down grading standards. They provide no challenge to bright children and little support to children with special needs depriving them of special school education and have a dreadful record in literacy and maths. If obesity is a problem why do we have little or no sports in schools which is also known to improve mental agility as well
Law and order what a disaster pen pushing form filling police who cant get out to solve the crimes they don’t record because it will ruin their statistics still we send people to jail for twenty years for robbery and five years for murder no wonder the underclass believe carrying a knife is less hazardous than carrying a skeleton key.
So what an underclass of illiterate drug addicted, knife carrying yobs has been created by this government policies and what is the answer not help and corrective but colonization in the midst of other communities where they reek further havoc
No wonder we have a booze culture with this governments messages of hopelessness and the achievement of nothing only looking after self interest rewarding greed in the main their own and those who pass them a few bucks..
Communities support, housing policy, social policy and corrective training and help for the dysfunctional all unavailable and all the social workers who should b helping on courses or filling in forms afraid to leave their office for fear of getting it wrong in a mountain of red tape and of buck passing and told to reduce the number of people and children they have listed as at risk. So the statistical results look better
If we had any decency as an electorate we would ensure that these deluded people were put into a secure rest home and given cream teas until they were as sick as the speech I have listened to in Brighton makes me
And I have not even mentioned war, tax, defence, bankers, pensions, expenses welfare all of which have gone seriously wrong with this way out of touch government thank goodness they are on the way out. Good bye Labour thank you for a lesson we will remember for along time that is those who claim to be socialist states nearly always fail the people"
Hack ground
This is an article about the media, and politics.
You know, can I make a quick comment. Parties in truth don't really care what people like you think.
You've probably been voting the same way for most of your adult life, and hence a lost cause, or a safe bet. Whichever way you look at it.
Both Cameron and Brown set their policies to people with open minds, who are willing to change, and think about policie.
They simply don't care about people so far to the left and right, that it doesn't matter.
You become irrelevant.
So I suggest, if you actually want to get something out of politics, and make a difference, you actually think about individual policy.
And not just spout off the same tired rhetoric, no matter what the subject of the piece
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#167 on second thoughts, it would take vision and courage.. back to the dull headlines then..
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Taking a cue from some bloggers comments on this thread, it seems to me that the current political atmosphere in this country is causing people to ask themselves a fundamental question about their core political identity, namely :
Am I English/Scottish/Welsh or am I British?
Of course, it is possible to be both, which all those who believe in the Union will subscribe to.
However, it seems to me that more and more people are polarising their political attitudes around their home country identity, probably mainly due to the totally unfair (to the English) devolution arrangements.
As the three mainstream parties all support the Union, then voters who are grappling with this case of political identity have a clear choice in the forthcoming General Election - either vote for a mainstream party or support one of the nationalist parties or an independent.
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"Regardless of what you might think of the Sun as a newspaper or its' readers, when it comes to general elections, they seem to get it right."
That's because they just change, after a party drops 10 points behind in the polls.
They're a populist title. They follow polls. You're really giving them too much credit
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157. kaybraes:
"The Sun ...... may very well make Brown such a figure of ridicule that he will be unelectable".
Agreed, but I think he's an unelectable figure of total ridicule already! (Bring back "Splitting Image"!)
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#172 Scaremongering, or what?
I suppose when you're frightened it's natural to express all the fears you've ever had, and to act irrationally.
But
"Great, so the Sun will now endorse privatisation of the NHS, massive public spending cuts" is a tad over the top, is it not?
Is there any sane person living in this country who doesn't understand the fact that cuts in public spending are unavoidable and necessary, regardless of political leanings?
Or has dogma taken over totally?
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Most of the hacks at the Sun are more than likely unfit to obtain a job at a decent newspaper. I note the new editor obtained his political education at the News of the World. The foreign owner of the paper has clearly decided he will make more money if The Bullingdon Kid is resident in Downing Street.The bag carriers will carry out their instructions.
In a recent piece of research it was found out that 50% of readers of the Sun did not vote, 30% of the rest voted Labour and it was thought the remaining few were either at the betting shop, or changing their books on political philosophy at the local library.
Last time I saw the Sun it was reporting on its front page that Elvis was still alive and living on the moon - In a London Red Bus.
The Sun and Cameron deserve each other.
Thank God for the BBC
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"It is interesting to note that the Sun is read by 5 million people, most of whom make up the working class majority of the country."
It used to be read by 5 million a day. It's closer to 2.9 million now.
2.1 million people, had a moment of clarity it seems.
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emily @ 135
I'm the kind of person he needs to convince
a floating voter! - fabulous, me too - very few of us around on here - let's start "convincing" ourselves, shall we? - starting NOW! - step one is to think ... really think ... about this particular manifestation of the Clowns getting into power with a massive majority - step two to follow
hey post 35 followed by post 135 ... a bit suspect ... anything to say for yourself about that?
IDL @ 131
call me suspicious, but it's almost as if this posting lark is your job. Any comments?
yes, did I not say? - thought you knew that - getting a bit demotivated though, to tell you the truth - it's minimum wage stuff and (what's worse) I'm not sure I'm achieving anything
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# 11.
'Still at least this will drive a steak through the heart of the prince of darkness.'
Hmmm, you certainly dont mince your words, do you!
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""Government owned shares are worth £80bn and climbing?"
Have you any clue at all about how much we already owe? Multiply by a factor of 15 and then add on another 50% of that for PFI and unfunded public sector pensions. That'd be some recovery and quite some 'cash in' too!
"
In regards to borrowing it's 185 billion. A figure that has gone up 3% every year since 1972.
This year it went up 5% rather than 3%. That's about it.
Try working things out yourself, rather than just buying into partisan media hype, designed to scare you into voting.
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Roughwind @ 173
You say, do Sun readers realise that by buying the Sun Neswpaper they are actually helping to fund the Tory party?
Probably not but to be fair, it is a easy trap to fall in.
For example, I was so disgusted with the behaviour of certain major banks last year that I pulled funds out and opened an account at the Co-Op bank.
However, I have inadventently become a Labour Party supporter, in the sense that I have subsequently found out that the Co-Op Bank contributes funds to the Labour Party.
My money will have to move on unless the Co-Op Bank changes its stance on this - to be clear, I do not want my funds being used by a third party to support any political party.
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"Having said that, although I'm not anti BBC they certainly need cutting down to size. It has become as bloated as the public sector and does a poor job of impartiality. Nick Robinson being the prime culprit, his Labour sycophancy is stomach churning, I think I'm going to see if the bookies will take a bet on him losing his job in July 2010!!"
If your a biased, right wing voter, anything "down the middle" is seen, bizarrely as being biased.
"I hate labour". You know.
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#173 Roughwind
If, as you state, it is an interventionist world, and will need to be, then I'd prefer NOT to have the people who were in charge when the troubles occurred to be the ones doing the intervening, thank you very much indeed.
They lack the ability and capability to be objective, since most of the problems they are supposed to be fixing they caused. Brown even admiteed as much during his own speech yesterday, but nobody has yet spotted it and reported on it properly, apart from that nice Mr peston, the man who knows these things.
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172#
Ah, the first drone to break cover.
"Great, so the Sun will now endorse privatisation of the NHS, massive public spending cuts, increased bonuses for all the tories' mates who work in the City and free moat cleaning services for Westminster employees."
Whoo, whose manifesto did you see that lot in? N-ones, because you just made them up!! Again! Dont forget Labour had plenty of mates in the city as well - they made them Lords and gave them Knighthoods as well! Dont try and say they havent!
"The Conservative party are NOT the party to represent the Sun's readers. They are capitalists who will only widen the gap between rich and poor."
Right... so the fact that the gap HAS widened between rich and poor DESPITE LABOUR BEING IN POWER FOR 12 YEARS following what has been a combination of Thatcherite light touch (ie non existant) regulation and Labour tax and spend policies, does not make them in the slighest bit capitalist???
"People should not underestimate the work Brown and Darling did to keep this country from going bust. Had Cameron been in charge, we would be in the same position as Iceland and Ireland."
Hah, they shouldnt underestimate how Gordon's policies played a part in us GOING bust in the first place! The only difference between us and Iceland and Ireland is that we havent called in the IMF yet. We're still trying to sell all our debt to the Chinese and the Middle East.
"The Sun should leave politics alone and stick to writing about Jordan and Peter, Brad and Angelina and all things Man Utd."
Didnt complain when they were backing Labour though, did you? Couldnt suck up to Murdoch fast enough, favourable corporation tax regime, writing columns for them.... how things change.
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"Murdoch will back the candidate who sells newspapers. The Sun has captured the mood of voters. End of. Brown's conference speech was just the last straw. "
What complete twaddle.
Anyone with a brain knows that he just backs the party that gives him the most business assurances.
You know, the sun backing, in general is linked to whoever gives him the best deal for the next decade on TV
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171#
maybe I inspired him. :-)
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Oh, eh up, Whelans' bringing the big guns out..... Mike Naylors back!
Stand by for 40-odd posts in 30 minutes.... It'll be like being under machine gun fire in the trenches!
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Lost the backing of The Sun…………..Oh yeah, that’s really true. Have you ever heard Murdoch Junior or Kelvin McKenzie speak?!
Let’s get one thing straight. The Sun, is, and has always been a staunchly conservative newspaper.
The only time they have ever wavoured from backing the tories, is when Blair alledgedly gave Murdoch such great assurances on future TV deals with his government, that it was an offer they couldn’t refuse.
Murdoch loved Blair, as Blair did everything in his power, alledgedly, to help SKY monopolise pay tv.
Brown’s done the opposite (try and break the sky cartel) in the last 3 years, so understandabely, the support has dried up.
The Sun was a begrudging Labour backer, for a few years. That’s it.
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If you go down to the Heath tonight, you'd better go in disguise.
If you go down to the Heath tonight, you're sure of a big surprise.
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176#
"So I suggest, if you actually want to get something out of politics, and make a difference, you actually think about individual policy.
And not just spout off the same tired rhetoric, no matter what the subject of the piece"
Theres a certain man in No10, who that advice would be very good for Michael. Next time Charlie lets you out for a tea break away from your PC in the bunker, why dont you go and tell him so?
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"How right you are Emily. As I and others have mentioned on earlier blogs Mandelson's presence is often given as a prime reason for dropping support for Labour. In days of old such a person would not have come back once let alone twice.
Probably every description from 'brilliant politician' to 'conniving little toad' and any quality in between, can be appled to him with some element of truth. The one word that doesn't fit him is 'trustworthy'
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The problem is that the tories have their version of Mandelson as their leader.
You know - when your only opposition is a government looking for it's 15th year in politics (unprecendented) and there are still question marks, you know...........
Cameron's got the default, lethargy vote, and still isn't walking away with it.
I'd be perplexed, if he even gets in, if he even lasts a single term. They'll oust him.
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""What is so depressing is that Brown/Blair were the true inheritors of Thatcherism."
Indeed. Because they realised it was the only way they were going to get elected. Socialism as a credible political force in Europe was dead as of 1991.
"
What twaddle. Conservatism died with Major.
I assure you, Cameron's policies are far closer to the left, than Blairs were to the right.
We're just stuck in the middle, where elections are won and lost on who has the cheesiest front man.
We're in America basically.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I noticed, among the various 'successes' of the past 12 years was the banning of cluster bombs... though as I recall, that almost went pear-shaped as BAe-Systems made them and there was a atrong lobby for a UK veto. Labour didn't so much 'lead' on that as they were being embarrassed by the press and painted into a corner to had to sign up for the ban. Shame on Gordon Brown for using it as 'success' propaganda!
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It's a shame I can't feel sorry for this guy. He thinks he's doing his best but he's deluded; too autocratic ever to think he might be mistaken and others, right. And he was so obsessed with becoming Prime Minister, now he's there he's messed it up on the back of his own policies - so it's his own fault. Fools rush in.... I can't think of anyone sensible who would have wanted that job in the state Blair left things. Besides, if Brown was even 1/100th the economist that supporters claim him to be he would have seen what was coming. One doesn't need a Philadelphia lawyer to point out the bubbles. Brown knows this but daren't own up to it: It's the world that's wrong, not me, he says.
But I have to say, the Sun lost me a long while ago.
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182#
Aye, that and the Mirror, eh Sout?
Helps to have partisan friends in high places living under a supposedly neutral banner that the rest of us are subsidising, doesnt it?
They'll only stick around long enough until they realise you're going to drag them down with you. Then they'll just cut you loose. They only like you when you do something for them. Or you pay them to like you. Or threaten them with what will happen if they dont like you.
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Poor Peter Madelson must be tearing what little hair he has left out of his hypocritical head, it is plainly obvious that he has set the stage for belittling the opposition with petty and childish personal insults. Perhaps if Labour concentrated on cleaning up their own house first and realising where they are going wrong instead of attacking all and everybody as soon as the camera is angled their way they might not be in this increasing mess they have found themselves. Just saying the Tories have got it wrong all the time does not cut it !
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My God ,does'nt ANYONE even slightly remember what the last TORY government was even remotely like ???......They are still the same old gang,however much they would like to kid you !!!!
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crowded island @ 143
just look around you at the consequences of 12 years of Labour misrule
firstly thank you for the compliment on my loyalty - I take it as such too, since I can tell you were being sincere - and I am pretty loyal to Labour, I guess, because their values (if not always their policies are the closest to mine of any of the serious parties) - I'm a Clear Thinking Progressive and proud to be so - and when I "take a look around" (here in Hampstead, North London) I see a place which is considerably improved in most important respects over the last decade or so - the book shops, the coffee bars, the delis, you name it, everything's quite a bit better looking than it was in 1997 - well, except me
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#172 zed_CARS
People should not underestimate the work Brown and Darling did to keep this country from going bust. Had Cameron been in charge, we would be in the same position as Iceland and Ireland.
The following are IMF projections for the two years 2009 and 2014. For Ireland, Iceland and the UK - GDP based on purchasing-power-parity (PPP) per capita.
2009 / 2014 / Country
$35,758 / $43,127 / Iceland
$39,383 / $42,947 / Ireland
$32,797 / $38,227 / UK
Duff Gordon said: UK was best placed to withstand the global recession.
The following are IMF projections for the two years 2009 and 2014. For the G7 Countries - GDP based on purchasing-power-parity (PPP) per capita.
2009 / 2014 / Country
$36,589 / $43,137 / Canada
$39,922 / $46,058 / France
$37,307 / $40,403 / Germany
$33,253 / $36,029 / Italy
$39,115 / $42,284 / Japan
$32,797 / $38,227 / UK
$45,550 / $52,392 / USA
Well at least we fare better than Italy.
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179#
"That's because they just change, after a party drops 10 points behind in the polls.
They're a populist title. They follow polls. You're really giving them too much credit"
I've got two sentences for you Mike.
"10p tax band fiasco"
and
"British Jobs For British Workers"
And you think the papers are populist!!!
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187#
"In regards to borrowing it's 185 billion. A figure that has gone up 3% every year since 1972.
This year it went up 5% rather than 3%. That's about it."
Thats a lie. Which proves why Labour cant be trusted with the nations finances.
Thats about it.
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How elections and the media work.
All parties make errors. The less errors you make, the longer you last. However, there comes a point when you’ve been in so long, and the errors have accumulated so much, that the public just wants someone else in.
Think Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown.
The Sun is a populist title. It doesn’t back a sinking ship. It follows the polls. But it doesn’t do this for free.
The title then goes to the default candidate, who Is just going to get in because the country is sick of 12 years of one party, and tries to make deals with them. Usually to secure their companies broadcasting rights in the country.
Think Murdoch’s media deals with a young Tony Blair. Which helped him monopolise his position in TV.
The new candidate, thinking he needs this backing to make his win definite, agrees to these deals, and gets the paper’s backing.
News Corp continues to grow, and dominate the UK media, because of these deals. And it’s backing retains it’s power and value.
10 years time (although he may not even make 2 terms), people are bored with tories, and want Labour back in.
Sun approaches new young labour leader, and offers them their backing, as long as they give them cushy media assurances/deals.
Sun declares, after Cameron’s speech “Sun backs Labour” and claims the reason is policy driven. Not the fact that they just want to sell papers and get good media deals from the new government coming in.
Labour win election, popular for 7-8 years, people tire close to 10, and the whole process starts all over again.
All that’s “allegedly” by the way, but you get how it is
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I think the power of The Sun has diminished quite a lot over the last 20 years. In the days of Thatcher and Kinnock, and even Blair and Major, it outsold it’s rivals two fold.
You were talking 5.5 million copies a day.
It’s popularity has wained over the last decade. It sells closer to 2.9-3.1 million copies a day now. It’s of course still the biggest selling paper in the country, but it doesn’t sell that many more copies than The Mail or The Mirror these days.
So it’s clout isn’t any more than either of those in reality.
You have to remember that it’s not really political support. The Sun follows it’s readers firstly. It doesn’t base support on policy, like say The Mail or The Mirror. If a ship is sinking, they’ll just jump off. They’ll do the same to Cameron, if he struggles in the polls some time in the next 5 years.
You also have to remember that The Sun doesn’t back anyone for free. They always want something back. And a lot of their backing is tied up in various prospective media deals.
Blair had to sell his soul to get Murdoch backing in 1997. The private media assurances, he gave Murdoch – in essence allowing Murdoch to totally dominate pay-tv for a generation – you know, that was the price for The Sun backing.
Cameron, you have to think it’s the same thing. He was embarrassingly spotted on Murdoch’s private Yacht in early 2008, nearly 2 years ago. Where many in the media felt the deal was already done.
You know, when you get James Murdoch coming on TV, criticising the power of public TV, like the beeb – and a few months later, Cameron coming out with policy to reign in the power of the BBC.
Then you get Tory policy, that will basically change the entire constitution – as in, their proposal to legalise partisan News Broadcasting – Murdoch’s prime business.
You know – it’s pretty blatant.
You know, Cameron reigning in the commercial arm of the BBC (if he does), and changing the constitution to allow partisan news broadcasting – both will help SKY monopolise British TV even further.
Sadly, that’s what the backing of The Sun costs.
In truth Labour have attempted to shift the media power in the UK a bit over the last 5 years. Which has more than likely upset his one time backers.
They’ve successfully removed the Premier League football monopoly, by making it illegal for one channel to show all games.
They’re going to do the same thing to the TV movie market.
The disappointing thing will be if the price for Cameron’s backing is the reversal of these great moves by the tory party.
You know, again, to help the big business in the UK. And hurt the consumer.
And, I think anyone with a brain realises that the timing was just to try and take attention away from the Labour party conference.
It’s been common knowledge for nigh on 2 years that The Sun was backing Cameron.
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185#
"a floating voter! - fabulous, me too - very few of us around on here - let's start "convincing" ourselves, shall we? - starting NOW! - step one is to think ... really think ... about this particular manifestation of the Clowns getting into power with a massive majority - step two to follow"
Ah, Saga, Mike let you get a word in edgeways.... you're still pulling that floating voter stunt.... More like a voting floater.... :-)
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The Sun is a fair weather supporter, we've known for months Labour are finished, they are just jumping ship. People only seem to remember back about 15 years, as we saw with people thinking the price of property can only go one way, people think the last Tory government were better, when in fact they were equally as bad, as will the next lot be. I made the wise move and emigrated!
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About time too Gordon has lived on the housing boom for twelve years if the government had regulated the banks all that time ago we wouldn’t have been in this mess now.
My only real regret is that Kinnock didn’t win in 1992 then we would have five years of the windbag a return to sanity and no new labour project
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On the subject of the press, there's apparently someone sending extremist letters to hospitals, clinics, Gordon Brown, etc and in some have been enclosed clippings from the Daily Mail.
Does that mean it's official?
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#135 EmilyQuango
"I didn't see Lord Mandleson the day before unfortunately. I did however see him at the end of the BBC's coverage of the prime ministers speech. I had pretty much the same reaction I always have when I see him, which is basically "Didn't you resign in disgrace a few times already, why are you still on my T.V?"."
Whenever he appears on my TV, I get this uncomfortable feeling that I should take a shower.
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#187 Mike_Naylor
Sorry but you are talking rubbish. The previous comment was about what we owe not what we are borrowing.
The Budget projections are that we will have £1.4 trillion of debt by 2013-14. This figure doesn't include PFI, and it doesn't include the massive unfunded civil service pension liabilities. It also doesn't reflect the expected losses on all our financial sector interventions that even this government admits are coming.
Your reference to borrowing is for this year only. It certainly doesn't reflect how much we owe.
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This really worries me. Someone should tell the murdoch Empire that
"Tommorow Never dies" is a work of fiction not an instructional video.
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122 majorroadaheadagain2:
"And to judge from the sycophants in the audience with the far away dreamy look that Meg Ryan had after her scene in the cafe in When Harry met Sally"
Please can I NOT have what they are having?
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As i read it the speech yesterday had two new policies and about half of them were restatements of existing policy or previously announced stuff
- so no change there ..
If the Sun has gone for the Tories then it will ensure lots of adverse comment and that may swing a few voters but frankly there is enough evidence to bury Labour already.
I saw little evidence of details on tackling the deficit which he helped make worse than it could have been - sorry, he and the Labour party just are not credible on the economy. Cameron may have called it wrong on the stimulus but don;t forget its the matter of 1% or so because as the recession bit benefits went up anyway with unemployment so these are not discretionary
His wife loves him - he'll need that after he is ejected kicking and screaming from No.10 and heads for a grumpy few years on the back benches
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4ever @ 159
we are now about to hand back power to the Clowns ... the true "free market" party who ideologically hate market regulation, love tax havens, think taxation is robbery, and public spending of all types encourages irresponsibility and social breakdown
that's an excellent definition, can I use it?
need to fight those blues though ... they have to win an absolute ton of seats to get in, remember
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It is very interesting to note the number of labour apologists climbing out of the woodwork to criticise the sun now that it has switched sides. You all seemed perfectly happy as long as it agreed with you, now suddenly it should report facts only and not opinion.
All seems a little hypocritical to me.
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195#
"Brown’s done the opposite (try and break the sky cartel) in the last 3 years, so understandabely, the support has dried up."
Sky cartel? What Cartel? A cartel is a collection of separate organisations colluding together, not one giant corporation like Newscorp!
Even if there was a cartel, a) he wouldnt recognise it b) he wouldnt be able to do anything about it and c) even if he did, like everything else he touches, the execution of it would be completely inadequate and he would be compelled within 6 months to backtrack.
I mean, he's proved really effective against the REAL cartels in the building industry (only took em 10 years to realise it) and against those in the energy market hasnt he? NOT!
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A paper with any detail or substance and writes 100 word tonic stories, utilises Page 3 to sell itself, I would hardly progressive and informative. Better going to other media to find out the true story
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Oh dear, I see Labour HQ have dusted off their favourate troll.
Things must be getting desperate.
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Saga you little devil! You stopped floating around the same time as the Titanic!
I can't believe you're still trying to pull the old "well I'm not really sure which way to jump" line given the things you regularly say about DC.
You've been taking lessons from Mandlebrot haven't you?
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132 rjaggar
Of course The Sun pays corporation Tax. As they are incorporated in this country, with employees in this country, and a Registered Company address in Wapping, it would be illegal for them not to.
So given this, your whole post is completely meaningless, and they hav the right (actually, it's more than a right, it's an editorial DUTY) to comment on what's going on.
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185 Saga
You don't read like a floating voter. I assume by "Clowns" you mean the Conservatives. Well, I'm not convinced by them either. But then, they haven't had their leader give his last conference speech before the election yet. I very much doubt I will be voting Conservative as David Cameron reminds me too much of Tony Blair( and unlike Gordon Brown I really did have a distrust of Tony Blair -- he came across very false and disingenuous to me ). Regardless of what I think of some of Gordon Browns comments and policies I really do get the impression that he at least wants to do the right thing. A lot of people have the opposite opinion, but we're talking personalites here which is kind of pointless.
Not sure what you mean about posts 35 and 135 being suspect? -- do you mean my closing comments in 35 where I said:
"I don't think they understand, they can promise anything and everything, the problem is the average person has lost all trust and faith in them due to the promises they have made and never delivered. They could offer the world and a lot of people would still think "Yea, I don't see any flying pigs."."
I'm aware that somewhat contradicts some of my comments in 135. But I did say the "average" person. I also stand by it, a lot of people won't be voting New Labour in the GE regardless of what they say or do. Whether that's enough to dethrone them or not is another matter. I was not however talking about myself. I was and remain perfectly willing to listen, but it's going to take some serious convincing( from all three main parties ). My vote doesn't come cheap. I'm not tribal and soundbites and schemes that seem unaffordable aren't going to cut it.
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dear oh dear why all this vitriol towards GB? He is, like John Major before him, a decent man in charge of a government that has been in power for too long. If anyone expects Cameron and Osborne to 'save' this country they are sadly deluded. What would be in Britain's best interest would be proportional representation to allow smaller parties to carry some weight and influence the public policy debates so that the big 2 parties have to pay more than lip service to the issues of the day. A 5 per cent hurdle like in Germany would keep the far right riff raff out of parliament.
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178. JohnConstable:
"..............the current political atmosphere in this country is causing people to ask themselves a fundamental question about their core political identity, namely :
Am I English/Scottish/Welsh or am I British?"
Yes. The problem here is a democratic deficit in England (an academic called Simon Lee published a very good book about this recently).
Scots have some obvious practical advantgages from devolution - noticeably where student fees and care of the elderly are concerned - and they also benefit from the Barnett Formula, but the big issues are representational, not financial. Scots MPs vote on English health and education issues, but English MPs have no such say on Scots issues.
Whereas Scotland enjoys a degree of devolved power, England is micro-managed from Whitehall.
Various proposals for English regional assemblies are based on selection, not election (rather like Labour's House of Lords reform plans). This is rather typical of the control-freakery in Labour's Whitehall.
Moreover, Scotland, like Wales, is a country, not a 'region'. The correct corollary of Holyrood is, therefore, not a rag-bag of artificial regional assemblies, but an English Parliament. Labour dreads that, of course.
This also colours Labour's views on the EU. Closer integration would point towards greater internal devolution, as in Spain (Catalonia, the Basque Country, Galicia and so on), Germany (the lander) and other EU countries. Labour (and Whitehall) are centralisers, not devolutionists. Also, of course, Mr Salmond is quite right to say that closer UK integration into the EU would point the way to an independent Scotland within the EU.
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#191 Fubar
Your position in general is puzzling.... in the past you've claimed not to be a Conservative supporter but you're supporting them because you're sick of Labour and you'd prefer anyone else in power but Labour.
Have you taken a close look at the Conservatives by any chance? Is there nothing there that you find distinctly alarming, say, their sudden lurches away from anything resembling centre ground or perhaps the lack of actual policy just a bunch of ever-evolving ideas? If so, are you not just cutting off your nose to spite your face?
The reason I say, is because I'm sick of Labour in their current form and sickened by much of what they've done over twelve years, however, I have to remember to look to the future. Surely, even in their current form we're better off with them than the more extreme Conservatives?
I actually won't be voting Labour, there's no point where I live - it's a straight scrap between the LibDems and the Cons.
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Mike Naylor said
""Government owned shares are worth £80bn and climbing?"
Have you any clue at all about how much we already owe? Multiply by a factor of 15 and then add on another 50% of that for PFI and unfunded public sector pensions. That'd be some recovery and quite some 'cash in' too!
"
In regards to borrowing it's 185 billion. A figure that has gone up 3% every year since 1972.
This year it went up 5% rather than 3%. That's about it.
Try working things out yourself, rather than just buying into partisan media hype, designed to scare you into voting.
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Mike, talking of partisan hype, shall we examine the figures here? The original poster claimed a share value of £80 billion for the banks (which I would question). The reply compared that to our depbt by suggesting you needed to multiply that figure by 15.
You then come along and say look, it's not that bad, borrowing is just £185 billion, don't be such a scaremonger.
Well, yes, £185 billion IS borrowing. FOR THIS YEAR Mike, as you very well know. So even if the bank shares were worth £80 billion, and we sold them right now, borrowing would still be over £100 billion THIS YEAR. Our total debt is heading rapidly (if it hasn't got there already) to £1 TRILLION, more if you include all the off-balance sheet stuff like PFI, and is set to keep rising for some time.
That has to be the worst attempt at using numbers to justify something I've ever seen. Even worse than Sagamix (sorry Saga!)
Try again Mike
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"nerdsunited wrote:
This is the same organisation that runs Fox News, and Yes, Fox News supported Bush in the last American election - I won't say anything more"
Wow, that is a major fail considering Bush couldn't even stand in the last American election!
The big problem for Labour is that The Sun readers are the type of voters that they need to come out and vote for them - and a constant drip of anti-Labour propoganda will chip away at their support.
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192 Mike Naylor
"Anyone with a brain knows that he (Murdoch) just backs the party that gives him the most business assurances"
Judging by the amount of contributions you have made to this blog I assume you are an expert on this topic. Can you let us know what business assurances Labour have given Murdoch to retain his support for the last twelve years?
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184. At 10:52am on 30 Sep 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
"It is interesting to note that the Sun is read by 5 million people, most of whom make up the working class majority of the country."
It used to be read by 5 million a day. It's closer to 2.9 million now.
2.1 million people, had a moment of clarity it seems.
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With the largest circulation of any UK newspaper, the Sun is an unashamed triumph of quantity over quality (not unlike your posts).
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187 Mike Naylor;
The absolute level of debt, even if you include (unfunded!) public sector pension obligations, isn't the issue.
The issue is the deficit. This year, taxes will bring in 35 percent of GDP, whereas spending will exceed 49 percent, so we're expecting to borrow 14 percent of GDP. Add back redemptions and the DMO is looking for well over GBP 200 billion. At least two thirds of this has to come from foreigners - DMO figures confirm this, by the way - so you are expecting overseas investors to fund Labour's uptopian-interventionist plan to remodel society.
Overseas investors might be unwilling to play this game. They might, at the very least, demand much higher interest rates if they're to go on lending to the UK. And what do you think THAT would do to the UK economy?
It's time to face the fact that we are living beyond our means. Well done Gordon.....
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185. At 10:52am on 30 Sep 2009, sagamix wrote:
emily @ 135
I'm the kind of person he needs to convince
a floating voter! - fabulous, me too - very few of us around on here -
206. At 11:09am on 30 Sep 2009, sagamix wrote:
crowded island @ 143
just look around you at the consequences of 12 years of Labour misrule
firstly thank you for the compliment on my loyalty - I take it as such too, since I can tell you were being sincere - and I am pretty loyal to Labour
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Saga. You really are a bit of an old fraud you know. How you have gall to make completely opposite statements to two people - on the same blog too - amazes me.
You are just on here for a bit of fun aren't you. What in my younger days we used to call a 'wind-up merchant'
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What can really be said about The Sun, a Newspaper that started the demise of Fleet Street and under the ownership of Murdoch took it place within a Sky Empire.
While its true that ALL Newspapers reflect firstly the wishes of the "Owners", and in the case of The Sun a bloke from down-under whom only interest is in making as much Money out of Politics as possible, even if he and his Newspapers have to engineer a Headline to start the ball rolling.
This has now been done with Murdoch backing a dead-horse in the next General Election by picking a non-runner in The Cons Party.
While the Cons will do their best to con their way into Government at the next General Election, we will also be seeing an end to The Sun, and Sky TV because the future of information distribution will be one day very soon free for everyone over the Internet, and thankfully even the likes of Murdoch cannot command any overall Control of this platform.
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FS @ 212
Mike let you get a word in edgeways
always happy to have discerning company, Fubar ... doesn't happen too often!
hey, liked your point (208) that because politicians are sometimes populist, means the Sun isn't
such a logician you are babe, aren't you?
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#206 saga
Oh no, not you aswell, according to Dave and George 'clear-thinking progressive' now means selling everything the country owns to their chums who can then run slimline a public sector at a profit - to themselves of course (and a loss in service to us).
Are you compassionate too? Isn't that something to do with being kind to your really filthy rich friends?
Don't know why I don't say this to you in person..... you're only at the next desk (IN LABOUR CENTRAL OFFICE).
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its very funny listening to all the sun hating lines from labour supporters, saying how unfair it all is, etc.
Where exactly were your complaints when the sun backed your glorious New Labour?
Or is that the usual left-wing stench of hypocrisy I smell?
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"geyien wrote:
I understand the dismay with Brown and co., but still struggle with the following questions:
* Do I really want this country to return to the days of Thatcher and Major? Tory "sleaze"? The greed, decay and decline of the 80s?"
I think that Labour sleaze has been as bad if not worse than the sleaze under the Tory party. Neither party are "whiter than white" but Labour has a problem in that many of their most sleazy members are still in the inner circle while this isn't really the case for the Tory party.
"* If not the Tories and not Labour, what are the alternatives? Libs? Too inexperienced. BNP? Too extreme and dangerous."
The Libs deserve a chance at least of becoming the official opposition, and you don't need to worry about the BNP as Labour seem to be borrowing their slogans and even some of their policies!
"In many ways, I can't help thinking: "Better the devil you know..."
Great way of thinking - perhaps the Tories should have used that as an election slogan back in 1997.
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Mike Naylor - Calm down dear boy. Gordon has 'shrugged off' the 'Sun' changing allegiance. So why are you acting as if you've dropped your favourite dummy out of your pushchair?
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I find this allusion to a conspiracy between Newscorp and Tories to eject the BBC and allow the the "evil" sky/ sun to take over the media in this country. As if that would be anti competetive.
A comercial organisation, funds itself through its success, up against a tax funded state protected monolith.
Hmm, which side has the unfair and anti competetive advantage?
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198#
Funnily enough, I agree.
199#
Maybe it did die with Major. Yes, Cameron is closer to the left than Brown is to the right. Not sure about the "cheesy frontman", but its certainly down to the quality of your leader and Gordon is NOT a leader. He thinks he is, but he isnt.
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I was surprised to see this thread still going until I saw Mike Naylor had been activated!!! I suppose it was always going to be troll central here today
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205#
Well, those who werent there have certainly been reminded of what the last Labour government was like... same end product, same contempt for the electorate, same destroyed economy.
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Having watched Paxman destroy Milliband on Newsnight last night it has never been more apparant just how slippery and nasty this current government are. Wow!! Ed Milliband, great white hope of the Labour Party!!! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! He looked like a Jehovas Witness caught trying to push copies of Watchtower through a door...
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great haye maker @ 196
that little couplet of yours saddens me - throughout all our occasionally tetchy banter over the last few months, I've always had a degree of respect for you - sure, you have your faults (who doesn't?) but, you know, we've had some good times, haven't we? - hiroshima, remember? - and how we agreed we were living beyond our means? - yeah, all good stuff - but if that offering is intended as I think it is then, for once, I'm lost for words - shameful, babe, shameful - and really cheap - please reflect on what it's saying about you
(I apologise if you're meaning something different to how it looks)
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228. At 11:24am on 30 Sep 2009, EmilyQuango wrote:
185 Saga
You don't read like a floating voter.
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Emily, welcome to the World of blogging.
You will quickly learn that not all is as it seems.(Especially if their username begins with SAGA..
Trust no-one. Have fun. Don't take it too seriously.
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You did tell us on an earlier blog that we had to look in the sun for the news
Pinnacle moment? Only history will tell
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emily @ 228
not sure what you mean about posts 35 and 135 being suspect? -- do you mean my closing comments in 35 contradict some of my comments in 135?
no, I wouldn't do that to you - combing through people's posts to spot contradictions is very poor form - really lowers the tone - no, I just thought you were on a spooky 100 post cycle - but I see Sterling has 235 so it's fine now, my mind's at rest - and glad to hear, btw, that your vote doesn't come cheap - cheap votes don't impress me much
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227#
Curiously enough, the original post was correct. Newscorp (and by definition, The Sun) does not pay any significant corporation tax in the UK, it pays it abroad.
And they're not the only ones either. WPP, Vodafone, Cadbury, BAT, Rolls-Royce - lots of them hardly pay any UK corporation tax.
A rather strange loophole for Gordon to leave open when he was chancellor, but there you go....
What I didnt like about the rest of the post was the fact that the poster had implied that Newscorp had to pay taxes here in order to express a political opinion. So much for a free press and free speech.
Living under that guys system would have been like living in North Korea.
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It's odd how those moaning about Sun bias never seem to notice it in the Dependent, Guardian, and Mirror.
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Put simply... any newspaper that has ANY political bias is not a real newspaper as they cannot be classed as Independent and unbiased reporting. The Sun blatently proves that tabloids happily change sides just to keep selling its made up storylines and uninteresting 'exclusives'. Glad I'm not one of those gullible to buy into Murdoch's world. Shame on those who do.
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extreme sense @ 240
thanks - funny!
Z @ 237
how you have gall to make completely opposite statements to two people on the same blog amazes me
so I amaze you! - what a nice thought! - seriously though, it's just multi dimensional thinking - recommended - hey and any case, didn't I just say to Emily (249/252) that it's bad form to go around pointing up contradictions in people's posts?
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The Tory MP The SUN won't support,or forgot.
The Scottish Shadow Secretary of State,
wee Davie Mundell !!!
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I do apologise if i offended you saga. It was meant to be lighthearted, banter if you will.
Feel free to ask to have it removed, I promise I shant be offended.
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77 Diabloandco: Nope, not a New Labour supporter, or any kind of Labour supporter. Nor do I have any BBC connections. Nor am I any other poster on this site - I've never been moved to join before. Don't let that get in the way of your reactionary nonsense, though.
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248. At 11:51am on 30 Sep 2009, DilleysFlowingLocks wrote:
Having watched Paxman destroy Milliband on Newsnight last night it has never been more apparant just how slippery and nasty this current government are. Wow!! Ed Milliband, great white hope of the Labour Party!!! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! He looked like a Jehovas Witness caught trying to push copies of Watchtower through a door...
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Ed Milliband is such a lightweight that I wouldn't have been surprised to see him float out of his chair like a blimp and disappear off over Paxman's head.
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G @ 232
that has to be the worst attempt at using numbers to justify something I've ever seen. Even worse than Sagamix
hey come on grawth! ... just because I made one tiny error that time and you spotted it before I had the chance to correct it
how are you and the "other 2" btw? - getting seriously concerned about the prospect of a Tory government is what I'm betting - yeah, thought so
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Labour doesn't need that low brow, sensationalist Sun...
Better off with the Mirror and Maguire.
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Equally amusing.
Those confidently claiming proof of the bias of the Sun in this matter.
Are those exact same who refuse to acknowledge any bias on behalf of the bbc.
So those with motive to support one party or the other are only biased if they happen to disagree with your own point of view?
Arf.
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178. JohnConstable:
"..............the current political atmosphere in this country is causing people to ask themselves a fundamental question about their core political identity, namely :
Am I English/Scottish/Welsh or am I British?"
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In Gordon's speech yesterday he referred to the 'Four Nations' which, caused someone who was watching the speech with me to exclaim " Yeah, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Britain"
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"U14147588 wrote:
Who's he think he's talking to? A bunch of dummies?"
Does the fact that he was speaking at the Labour conference answer your question?
These are people who are not only likely to vote for Labour, but have actually paid money to be members of the Labour party and have paid more money to attend the Labour conference!
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Ruddle17 wrote:
If anyone expects Cameron and Osborne to 'save' this country they are sadly deluded. What would be in Britain's best interest would be proportional representation to allow smaller parties to carry some weight and influence the public policy debates
I agree and would actually go as far as saying a HUNG parliament would be the best thing for this country as there are many problems (social, environmental and economic) to sort out and it would stop the constant bickering and we might actually see some good ideas come to fruition. The Sun would never be clever enough to back that though.
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"sagamix wrote:
polero @ 18
millions of people read The Sun daily
read? - mmm - hey but just think about an election won WITHOUT any votes from Sun "readers" !! - would be such a clean mandate, wouldn't it?"
I doubt the Tories will care about having what you would consider a "clean" mandate, and even without the support of The Sun I doubt that the Labour party would have a "clean" mandate considering that many of their core vote are paid from government funds.
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256. At 12:13pm on 30 Sep 2009, sagamix wrote:
Z @ 237
how you have gall to make completely opposite statements to two people on the same blog amazes me
so I amaze you! - what a nice thought! - seriously though, it's just multi dimensional thinking - recommended - hey and any case, didn't I just say to Emily (249/252) that it's bad form to go around pointing up contradictions in people's posts?
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Indeed you did say that, but as it is a technique that you have occasionally used - and I am always willing, even at my mature age, to learn from a master(or should that be mistress?)- I felt it only fair to put Emily wise. After all, she has told us that she is fairly new to politics and surely the onus is upon us older, but not necessarily wiser, heads to impart such knowledge as we can to those who will still be blogging when we have vacated our perches.
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"excellentcatblogger wrote:
My vote is still private, right? Please say right..."
Considering each voting slip is numbered and a note of that number is marked next to your name when you get assigned the voting slip I am not sure exactly how private your vote is.
I think it is illegal to cross match after the election but it should be possible to.
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So the paper of the stupid aligns itself with the party of the stupid. What a surprise.
Enjoy the Tories, Britain. A return to sleaze, corruption, MPs ending up in jail (a la Archer and Aitken) and general incompetent cluelessness akin to the Republicans 8 year term.
I myself look forward to when they get thrown out of office in disgrace after 2 or 3 terms.
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231#
"Your position in general is puzzling.... in the past you've claimed not to be a Conservative supporter but you're supporting them because you're sick of Labour and you'd prefer anyone else in power but Labour.
Have you taken a close look at the Conservatives by any chance? Is there nothing there that you find distinctly alarming, say, their sudden lurches away from anything resembling centre ground or perhaps the lack of actual policy just a bunch of ever-evolving ideas? If so, are you not just cutting off your nose to spite your face?"
To a degree, I am ABL. More accurately, ABG (Anyone But Gordon), although when Messrs Balls and Harman are in the mix, I tend to go further towards ABL.
I'm not convinced by Cameron either. He's a manager, not a leader. I'm of the opinion that we need a strong inspirational leader and I dont see it in any of the mainstream, or for that matter smaller parties either. I grew up during the 80's, so I've seen first hand what all the scaremongering of "the tories will eat all your children and privatise the healthservice" and all that other guff, when it was going on first time round. I also remember vividly, the winter of discontent in 1978.
The problem with the centre ground is that its too crowded. As I alluded to with Souter the other day, all of the main parties have figured that if the votes wont come to them because of apathy, they have to go to where the votes are. Thats how we've ended up with this crazy situation of the LibDumbs advocating the mansion tax, a Labour government penalising the lowest tax earners by repealing the 10p band and the Conservatives saying they'll ringfence DFID and the NHS! Its barking mad.
Also, I'm on the verge of becoming an expat anyway.
I dont so much mind sloganeering and electioneering, I can take it or leave it. What I do really object to is people in glass houses throwing stones, lying, scaremongering and trying to airbrush history to suit their agendas. I was brought up not to lie when I was a kid and these people are meant to be our leaders, they're meant to be honourable. And they're not. They're liars and cheats.
I know they're all at it, I understand that, but this particular iteration of the Labour party appear to have taken this level of mendacity to new heights and I dont like it.
If I'm going to be forced to vote for anyone, unless Cameron suddenly wakes up, which I cant forsee, its probably going to be UKIP. Main reason being, where the family home is, he's the only candidate I've ever seen. Labour dont bother because the constituency is solid Tory, the Tories dont bother because they know they're a shoo-in... and the LD's.. they just stick a leaflet through the door and run off. You dont get to question them.
At least with the man from UKIP, he stands and listens and talks to you, he engages with you. None of the rest can be bothered.
So, if I have to vote for anyone, it'll probably be him. The rest havent earned my vote yet and I certainly wont be giving it blindly.
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Hey there Saga,
"how are you and the "other 2" btw? - getting seriously concerned about the prospect of a Tory government is what I'm betting - yeah, thought so"
Actually, to quote one of your mates, I'm intensely relaxed about it :-)
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239#
Decency and the obscenity laws prevent me from describing their union, Saga. Suffice to say its a number less than a hundred and greater than 68, a symbiotic relationship.
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262#
Labour doesn't need that low brow, sensationalist Sun...
Better off with the Mirror and Maguire.
Heh. Which isnt at all sensationalist.... or lowbrow is it???
LMAO.
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Don't buy The Sun:
http://www.anfieldroad.com/dont-buy-the-sun/
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This is hilarious! How can anyone take this rag seriously? Deliberately dumbed-down language written by well-educated folk, proposing to speak for the masses? (cf Orwell's 1984) Self-congatulatory jingoistic nonsense? Sport, soft porn and bile-driven editorials? (1984 again) Lurid delight in sex-orientated stories. Paedophile hysteria (remeber Paulsgrove?)Clarkson and Littlejohn? Criminal convictions for its journalists? Vile untruths (ask the folk of Liverpool)? Come off it. Anyone with half a brain cell sees this comic for what it is. If the election result is swayed by the opinion of a trashy newspaper then heaven help us all. And by the way, I don't read the Grauniad thanks.
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GHM @ 258 re 196
feel free to ask to have it removed
no dice ... should stay right where it is
insight rules!
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Who the hell is the Sun or any newspaper to think they can tell me who I should vote for?
Whatever happened to journalistic integrity? Whatever happened to reporting news, and letting us, the intelligent public, make up our own mind and opinion? It's one of the single greatest problems in this country. So often the public is nothing more than sheep following the latest advertised trend or opinion.
What in truth is the difference between a large group of newspapers (Say controlled by Murdoch) advocating opinions and thoughts, to that of a restricted press advocating opinions and thoughts of a government or political party in a single-party state? There is barely any difference when there's such a monopoly of media power held by one man. There is no difference between this thought police journalism and a political party run press.
I may vote for Labour...I may not. I will decide nearer the time, and it will be MY decision alone. Not Rupert Murdoch and his clunge mag.
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"Mike_Naylor wrote:
"How right you are Emily. As I and others have mentioned on earlier blogs Mandelson's presence is often given as a prime reason for dropping support for Labour. In days of old such a person would not have come back once let alone twice.
Probably every description from 'brilliant politician' to 'conniving little toad' and any quality in between, can be appled to him with some element of truth. The one word that doesn't fit him is 'trustworthy'
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The problem is that the tories have their version of Mandelson as their leader.
You know - when your only opposition is a government looking for it's 15th year in politics (unprecendented) and there are still question marks, you know..........."
Perhaps they should brief you better at Labour HQ, the last Tory government were in for longer then 15 years. Perhaps you are getting your facts from the same "Labour big book of facts" as Harman when she forgot the name of the first female PM in this country (I will give you a clue it is a tradename for someone who makes thatched roofs)
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270. At 12:49pm on 30 Sep 2009, chazz40 wrote:
So the paper of the stupid aligns itself with the party of the stupid. What a surprise.
- So where have you been for the last 12+ years? Or did the Sun only just become the party of the stupid?
Enjoy the Tories, Britain. A return to sleaze, corruption, MPs ending up in jail (a la Archer and Aitken) and general incompetent cluelessness akin to the Republicans 8 year term.
- At least the tory MPs were actually on the receiving end of some proper justice, unlike Labour MPs who seem to use some kind of revolving door justice - any new news on the baroness? Mandelson anyone?
I myself look forward to when they get thrown out of office in disgrace after 2 or 3 terms.
- I'm waiting for something similar, but sooner.
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"colonelDelboy wrote:
My God ,does'nt ANYONE even slightly remember what the last TORY government was even remotely like ???......They are still the same old gang,however much they would like to kid you !!!!"
Yes, I remember the last Tory government, and I also remember the last Labour government and I know which one was better - however the voters still returned a Labour government after the total failure of the last one.
This Labour government is so bad that people are starting to look at the last Tory government as being not so bad.
I don't really trust the Tories under Cameron to be any better than the Tories under Thatcher or Major - however I have seen how bad Labour are under Brown and that is why I will be voting against Labour (just not sure WHO to vote for)
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Most SUN readers are claiming benefits. Would they be stupid enough to back the Tories and chance losing them?
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#228 emily Try not two listen two saga to much she sometimes gets her ena sharples hair net covering her eyes.
You know like the blinkerd hourse.
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270. At 12:49pm on 30 Sep 2009, chazz40 wrote:
So the paper of the stupid aligns itself with the party of the stupid. What a surprise.
Enjoy the Tories, Britain. A return to sleaze, corruption, MPs ending up in jail (a la Archer and Aitken) and general incompetent cluelessness akin to the Republicans 8 year term.
I myself look forward to when they get thrown out of office in disgrace after 2 or 3 terms.
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........................@..........
Return to?
Where have you been for the last 12 years?
I know that the thought of people being succesful off their own backs makes you blind with envious rage (a brief look back over your ludicrous posting history), but believe it or not, noone owes you anything.
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270#
"A return to sleaze, corruption, MPs ending up in jail (a la Archer and Aitken) and general incompetent cluelessness akin to the Republicans 8 year term."
So.
All in all, not too much different to now then... Apart from the MP's not ending up in jail, even though some of them belong there...
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Chazz40 says
"Enjoy the Tories, Britain. A return to sleaze, corruption, MPs ending up in jail (a la Archer and Aitken) and general incompetent cluelessness akin to the Republicans 8 year term."
Ironic, isn't it? I mean for the last 12 years we've not had any sleaze (Ecclestone, Hinduja) or corruption (amendments for cash, lying to get us into a war). However, it is true to say we've not had MPs ending up in jail. Whether that is how it should have been (mortgage fraud, amendments for cash, employing illegal immigrants) is not for me to say. Certainly there should have been a LOT more resignations than there have been.
So a return to the Tories would be welcome. And yes I remember the last Tory government. I also remember the Labour one before it.
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The subject of newspapers' support for political parties was something I studied a lot whilst at university. The Sun will support the party that is more likely to gain power for a number of reasons but the main reason is that they believe that they stand for popular opinion. i.e. to sell the most papers they should support the views of the majority.
Interestingly one of the studies I did was to look at the effect of newspapers partinsanship and their effect on opinion polls leading up to the 2001 election. Without going into detail, it was clear that the polls effected the papers rather than the papers effecting the polls.
What labour are saying is true that people decide elections not the papers, however I think I am still right in saying that no political party has ever won a general election without the majority backing of the printed press. It is also true that the party The Sun has supported in the lead up to an election for the past 30 years has always come out on top.
From current opinion polls it looks like we're heading to a tory government and therefore the suns decision today came as no surprise at all.
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extremesense wrote:
#191 Fubar
Your position in general is puzzling.... in the past you've claimed not to be a Conservative supporter but you're supporting them because you're sick of Labour and you'd prefer anyone else in power but Labour.
Have you taken a close look at the Conservatives by any chance? Is there nothing there that you find distinctly alarming, say, their sudden lurches away from anything resembling centre ground or perhaps the lack of actual policy just a bunch of ever-evolving ideas? If so, are you not just cutting off your nose to spite your face?
"The reason I say, is because I'm sick of Labour in their current form and sickened by much of what they've done over twelve years, however, I have to remember to look to the future. Surely, even in their current form we're better off with them than the more extreme Conservatives?"
I seem to have missed any sign (well outside of New Labour propoganda - just because they say it doesn't make it true people) that the Conservatives are going to be more extreme. I am guessing that you are basing your entire case on the new Tory grouping in Europe, however it is my understanding that this was formed because they felt the old group wanted deeper integration within Europe (which I suspect the majority of the UK population actually opposes)
I agree that the Tories haven't really gone into detail on policies - but then neither have Labour, they have just thrown a number of policy soundbites out there like chum in the hope that the public will swim to them.
And I think of the stated policies of the main stream parties the most extreme is New Labour's plan for "New Workhouses" for single mums, I have a catchy slogan for them - "Get Knocked up? Get Locked up!"
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276
Jeez, another one.
For the record, we all agree with your assessment of the sun.
What is incomprehensible, ridiculous and absurd, is that you only crawl out of the woodwork now when they are not on your side.
Where was the furious bile when they were defending Brown and attacking the "Tory Toffs" day in day out.
Hypocrits hypocrits hypocrits.
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"I_Despise_Labour wrote:
I was surprised to see this thread still going until I saw Mike Naylor had been activated!!! I suppose it was always going to be troll central here today"
Do you reckon that they keep him locked up in a glass cage with "In case of bad press break glass?" :)
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Well there's a massive surprise. The all-seeing Sun swaps horses for a change. No doubt to be followed up by a claim that yet again "it was the Sun what won it" if Cameron does get into no.10
Pats on the back all round, lads!
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No274 Fube
It must be difficult to find time to work on your IT consultancy. Is business good under the old firebrand socialist, who, according to many G20 leaders, saved the world's financial system from total collapse?
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"pebbens wrote:
Put simply... any newspaper that has ANY political bias is not a real newspaper as they cannot be classed as Independent and unbiased reporting. The Sun blatently proves that tabloids happily change sides just to keep selling its made up storylines and uninteresting 'exclusives'. Glad I'm not one of those gullible to buy into Murdoch's world. Shame on those who do."
Sorry I don't follow how political bias somehow stops a paper from being "real". News doesn't have to be unbiased, I have browsed the Guardian site and the Mail site and somehow they both seem to report the news - I have to take their political stories and opinion pieces with a pinch of salt and understand where they are coming from/pitching to but that doesn't stop them reporting the news.
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"chazz40 wrote:
So the paper of the stupid aligns itself with the party of the stupid. What a surprise.
Enjoy the Tories, Britain. A return to sleaze, corruption, MPs ending up in jail (a la Archer and Aitken) and general incompetent cluelessness akin to the Republicans 8 year term."
A return to sleaze and corruption? Where have you been over the last 12 years? Under Labour we have had accusations of selling peerages, taking money to try and change laws, the expenses scandal, a sitting PM being interviewed in a criminal investigation, an opposition MP being arrested after embarassing the government with leaked information (something our current PM did often in opposition), an old man being arrested for heckling at the Labour party conference
After 12 years of Labour the years of Tory sleaze don't seem so bad.
And when you consider some of the expenses claims made by some MPs perhaps THEY should be in jail.
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"tris74 wrote:
This is hilarious! How can anyone take this rag seriously? Deliberately dumbed-down language written by well-educated folk, proposing to speak for the masses? (cf Orwell's 1984) Self-congatulatory jingoistic nonsense? Sport, soft porn and bile-driven editorials? (1984 again) Lurid delight in sex-orientated stories. Paedophile hysteria (remeber Paulsgrove?)Clarkson and Littlejohn? Criminal convictions for its journalists? Vile untruths (ask the folk of Liverpool)? Come off it. Anyone with half a brain cell sees this comic for what it is. If the election result is swayed by the opinion of a trashy newspaper then heaven help us all. And by the way, I don't read the Grauniad thanks."
Let me guess you don't think much of the Mirror either as most of what you have said applies for them too (just replace the folk of Liverpool with the army who were accused by the Mirror of brutality based on faked pictures)
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So Harriet Harman has declared that "this dog is biting back!"
Harriet, when dogs bite in this country, they get put down.
Especially when they start frothing at the mouth like so many Labour ministers and activists have been this week.
Call an election now.
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No276 Tris,
Try not to be so sensible. The politically thick Tory bloggers that attempt to dominate this forum will be finding it difficult to understand.
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Just watching the floudering, deer-in-headlights Andy Burnham on sky News.
God help us if he's the best they can put in front of a camera. Maybe it's just because he does make-up better than most...
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Mark_WE @ 269
It is a common misperception that your vote is secret because as you surmise from the index numbers, the voting slip can identify you and, of course, how you marked the slip.
I do not know the official reason why this audit trail exists, but I imagine that it assists in identifying voting fraud.
Whatever, one year after the election, the returning officer is supposed to destroy the voting slips thus erasing the audit trail.
Nothing is this country is ever quite what it seems, especially the democracy.
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Rank hypocrisy! I've watched part of Harriet Harperson's speech on the BBC news and now suddenly The Sun are sexist bullies!
After years of bathing in the glory of being the Sun's favourite, the Labour party has turned on their greatest media supporter since 1997!
This could be a big mistake because there are still a large number of Sun readers who may want to vote Labour at the next election....
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"137. At 09:42am on 30 Sep 2009, I_Despise_Labour wrote:
@120 potatolord
But if we all throw our protest vote somewhere other than the tories there is a risk that Labour could still win, or certainly reappear far too soon (never is too soon as far as I'm concerned but....)
Until the majority of the public use their vote and also start to think in terms outside con/lab/lib there is little option.
I really want to vote UKIP as I dont trust the Tories to take us out of Europe, but I'm not going to take the risk of Labour sneaking in again. It's not just a case of they're not Gordon Brown, it's that they are best placed to remove Labour.
I feel that it is imperative for the good of this country (England) for Labour to be annihilated never to darkjen our shores again. Scotland can keep them"
Hmm. I'm not sure that you are the most unbiased of posters here, given your name.
If everyone takes the same attitude as you, then we'll be stuck with the usual idiots forever. Why not, for once, have the courage of your convictions and actually vote for the *candidate you want*, rather than one of the two main parties?
I understand that you're worried about the party you despise winning again, but they won't. They'll lose and the only question is the size of the conservative majority. A large majority will allow that very nice young David Cameron to do whatever he wants, and given that he hasn't said what that is, you shoudl be worried. For heaven's sake, the man has NO POLICIES. None. Not one. Other than getting elected, anyway. He'd probably swear loyalty to Osama Bin Laden if he thought there were votes in it...
As for your "Until the majority of the public use their vote...", well, that's just pathetic. You've already said that you won't use your vote as you want to, lest labour win, so you're part of the problem. How will things change when people take that mealy mouthed attitude?
We need a change to our electoral system. Until then the idiots will continue to vote for their favourite colour, because their dad did.
I hope you're all pleased with yourselves- you have exactly the system and politicians that you deserve.
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Quote from Andy Burnham:
"I'd be interested to see how they {the Sun} back up their claims as to how badly the NHS is doing..."
Huh? Andy, it's not up to the newspapers to back up statistics and claims, especially when the Government can't or won't do the same.
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The Sun is an independent commercial organisation, and as such, entitled to its views.
I just can't understand why this is "news". The Sun has "supported" Labour in name alone over the past 12 years, with its agenda the same as it always was, simply because Labour was clearly going to win the last three elections.
Now Labour is clearly going to lose, they switch to the Tories. as we all knew they would.
Debating this switch just perpetuates the myth that The Sun influences the outcome of general elections.
In 1992, they made the correct call - that is all
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278. At 1:15pm on 30 Sep 2009, MarkTLawson
Who the hell is the Sun or any newspaper to think they can tell me who I should vote for?
Whatever happened to journalistic integrity? Whatever happened to reporting news, and letting us, the intelligent public, make up our own mind and opinion? It's one of the single greatest problems in this country. So often the public is nothing more than sheep following the latest advertised trend or opinion.
Indeed.
Not so his son James, who now runs News International and is close to the shadow chancellor George Osborne.
And having watched the gels of Breakfast mutter darkly post interviewing Mr. Kavanagh about who from on high really pulls editorial strings of what the public is served, a question that could well be asked far and wide. Perhaps straying, uniquely, into the broadcast arena too? It is a very powerful, populist medium.
Thing is, I have a fair grasp of what The Sun is, and where it is coming from, so I choose not to fund it by not buying it.
That said, in my world (the environment), I would be very happy for a quarter page, mainly pictorial, in that publication, to a full spread in some other 'qualities'.
When it comes to print you are looking to reach and persuade not just the numbers, but the most influential folk as well. So give me a few million Fiesta-driving, Tesco shopping workers who might fancy doing right by the planet, over a few hundred thousand Prius-driving, personally long haul Fairtrade bestowing types that are the life blood of news media read mainly within small pockets inside the congestion charge zone.
And for certain delusional pols and their glee-club remoras, they are also those who still do have votes, and know how to use 'em.
So whatever you may think of it, I'd say dissing such as The Sun as irrelevant is... 'interesting'.
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Zydeco @ 264
You say that during Gordon's speech yesterday he referred to the 'Four Nations' which, caused someone who was watching the speech with me to exclaim " Yeah, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Britain".
I would imagine that is a very common sentiment amongst many English people, who probably feel pretty much disenfranchised by the current devolutionary arrangements.
We English all have our personal tipping point in this matter and for me it was when the National Census was undertaken in 2001, which managed to exclude the English from the forms.
That was totally insulting and really was the final straw for this Englishman and I resolved there and then to do all I could in my very limited powers to try and resurrect the English national political identity.
Although I claim no credit, in fact, somewhat paradoxically, the very politically aware native Scots should claim any credit going, the English political identity is slowly re-emerging.
The English may soon be coming in singing from the fields again.
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48. At 06:12am on 30 Sep 2009, NickinSingapore wrote:
>> Squiddy 2003: "For the last 6-7 months your feeling is that the
>> economy is doing much better"
> ...better than what? Only you know the answer to that and perhaps for
> the hundreds of thousands of people in the UK who have lost their jobs
> over this period you can tell them it was all a dream! You really are
> deluding yourself. I hope you feel better soon.
Better than when people got the shock of their lives when their gravy train ran dry. The ones who only had jobs due to the unsustainable boom everyone's been complaining about. I'm sure you must've read about it somewhere. Any company that can't withstand a 5% decline wasn't a viable business in the first place. That's obvious.
My view isn't coloured by this party-political drivel that I've had to wade through here. By and large it's irrelevant. My view is that there hasn't been any "recession" at all. It's just that the bubble has burst. Big bonuses were unearned and therefore unreal. Property price speculation that gave so many people a feeling of wealth didn't really exist either. Speculation of any sort is just that - also unreal. So when that house of cards fell down we've got to where we are now. The real level of demand.
This hasn't been a recession. It's a return to reality. Those people who've lost their jobs, of course I feel sorry for on a personal level, but they only lost fake jobs that only existed because of the fantasy world people were living in. But the loss of the non-businesses that 'employed' them is fantastic shake-out we've needed for a long time. The small bits of demand they serviced has now returned, after a 4-5 month vacuum either side of xmas, to stronger businesses that had a sound base to them in the first place. I'm fortunate to run one of those businesses and it's been plain for 6-7 months that demand is returning to such an extent we can barely cope with it. I'm forecasting a record year by 7-10% and I'm quite worried it might be more. All the strong businesses around me are in much the same boat - just there's some reticence to say it out loud.
So no, there's no delusion on my part and none of your knee-jerk nay-saying changes that. This blog is the unreal self-serving bubble, populated by people who clearly have too much time on their hands (for obvious reasons).
Of course there is a problem of getting people back into work, and the way things are going it'll happen progressively and we'll play our part, as will others coming into our sector who're prepared to start small and build up their trade with the flood of customers we're unwilling\unable to cater for. Hopefully they won't be the kind of fast-talking spivs out to take advantage for their own benefit.
The only political point I'd make is that if this is such a terrible recession (and I'm aware of the under the surface costs that'll keep aspects of it running for the next decade or so) it's been remarkably short-lived at the sharp end and the assistance that's been around has really blunted the worst of things. Unemployment isn't anywhere near what it was likely after the last recession, repossessions aren't anywhere near what it was like, loans are increasing but only to viable people and businesses instead of the crazy lashing around that was going on before, banks are increasing their capital base simultaneously, which is incredible.
So as I said, I have a sneaky feeling the likes of the Sun have badly mis-read matters now and if they don't jump ship back to NuLab they are going to look a bit stupid next summer. Of course, the sheep (aka electorate) like to hold a grudge, even against the wrong people, but if there's a change of Gov't next summer it'll be turkeys voting for Xmas. Has anyone seen George Osborne recently or is he still hiding after his recent efforts - everything that guy's ever said has been palpable nonsense. If Cameron gets in, my money's on Osborne not being part of the victory parade.
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274. Fubar_Saunders
Are you casting aspersions on the integrity of Maguire?? :-)
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287. At 1:41pm on 30 Sep 2009, EdBaker wrote:
> From current opinion polls it looks like we're heading to a Tory
> government and therefore the Sun's decision today came as no
> surprise at all.
But that's why I'm surprised they've taken their position so early. It may turn out that way in the end too, but the momentum is going to change from here in and the more that gets put on the table, the more Cameron's vacuous self-interest is going to be apparent. He needs to cut down the high-pitched whining pretty sharp IMO.
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99. At 08:44am on 30 Sep 2009, Roll_On_2010 wrote:
Tony Blair ‘will end exile’ to campaign for Labour at general election.
Teflon Tony, Meddlesome, Duff and Ali, the NuLabour Project architects all onboard the train when it crashes."
I hope do too, especially if he is cought in the UK for more than 183 days and has to pay the new tax rate.
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When New Labour came into power in 1997, did we expect to have 3 NHS's? Did we expect that nurses be required to pay a car parking tax? Did we expect thousands to be killed every year by bugs caught in hospitals? Did we expect that the numbers unemployed would be greater in spite of spending billions on New Deals? Did we expect billions of pounds to be mis spent on tax credits? Did we expect billions of pounds to be spent on an identity card, only to be dismissed in a twinkling of an eye? Did we expect the government to borrow 200 billion pounds in one year and then promise to spend more and borrow more? Does the government think by introducing 24 hour drinking they have worsened the problems of binge drinking? Does the government think that the death of so many innocent people in Iraq has made our country a safer place? Does the government think that having done all these things and much more, they have truly created a fairer and better society? As the prime minister said, it will not be the Sun that will decide, it will be the people and as a true democrat, he owes it to the people to put the question to the electorate sooner rather than at the last moment.
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#207 Roll_On_2010
You forgot one more country, Norway. Remember the much pilloried Arc of prosperity anyone?
Country, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014
Norway, $52797, $52855, $53761, $55140, $56830, $58610
Iceland, $35758, $35485, $36799, $38626, $40752, $43127
Ireland, $39383, $38253, $38746, $39926, $41404, $42947
UK, $35286, $34881, $35402, $36541, $37838, $38808
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2009/01/weodata/weorept.aspx?sy=2009&ey=2014&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=142%2C176%2C178%2C112&s=PPPPC&grp=0&a=&pr.x=60&pr.y=10
For those who didn't follow the link, these are the IMF projections for GDP based on purchasing-power-parity (PPP) per capita.
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Mike Naylor
Where are you? Over a dozen posts on this blog but when asked a pertinent question (Post 234) you disappear. I ask again - if Murdoch/the Sun supports the party which gives them "the most business assurances" (your words) what has the Labour Party being promising, or giving, them for the last 12 years?
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Number 31:
"Mr Robinson, can you do any better? I recall the close relationship between Mr Murdoch Snr and the Tories. And how about your relationship with the Labour Party? Come now?"
I'm sorry. What relationship with the Labour Party. The erstwhile Mr Robinson was the chairman of the Young Conservatives!
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I wish all the labour trolls would stop criticising the Sun. I purchased a copy today and it could well become a collectors edition.
My favourite part (the talented young lady from Bromley aside) was the large poster size pullout with all Gordons/Labours failings on it!!!
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310#
++standing ovation++
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307#
Perish the thought.
Just trying to level the playing field a tad ;-)
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I sincerely hope the Sun attack Brown particularly after a speech that did nothing for the country but attempted to do everything to boost Labours chances at the next election, non existent though they may be.
How anyone can speak of increased public expenditure at the present time knowing that we cannot afford it and appear to convince a bunch of no hopers, hanging on to his every word, is beyond me. The man is a complete charlatan and is, as is every one who supports him and his party, fair game as far the Sun should be concerned, good luck to them.
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@ potatolord
Who said anything about me being unbiased?!! Not sure how it's relevant and I would never make such a claim, I think my user name is fairly clear on that front (I tried to use LabourAreLyingCheatingScum but the BBC wouldn't let me!!)
I'm not talking about forever, jsut this one time to be safe, and when I refer to people using their votes I mean the enormous percentage of people who cant be bothered. Once a higher proportion of people are voting then there is potential for reform of the system not before.
I am most certainly not part of the problem, I never voted for Labour. I dont think anyone has ever described my attitude as mealy mouthed before, lol. Of course you're entitled to your opinion (even if it is garbage).
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306#
"Those people who've lost their jobs, of course I feel sorry for on a personal level, but they only lost fake jobs that only existed because of the fantasy world people were living in."
"Unemployment isn't anywhere near what it was likely after the last recession, repossessions aren't anywhere near what it was like, loans are increasing but only to viable people and businesses"
There might be a substantial number of people out there and not just the non-job crowd, not just those who got shook out by the banks who might disagree with you. Especially the young.
You quite sure about those statements?? I think you might do well to quantify them, if you pardon my saying so... What line of business are you in? 7-10% growth? Debt Collecting? Supplying CCTV & Tasers to the Met?
Or are you a paint merchant with a government contract for supplies of whitewash?
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297. At 2:15pm on 30 Sep 2009, braveSouter wrote:
No276 Tris,
Try not to be so sensible. The politically thick Tory bloggers that attempt to dominate this forum will be finding it difficult to understand.
--------------
Thank god there is one brave soul here to show the rest of the country it is them who has it wrong.
And by the way, did I just see one of who you would presumably call "the politically enlightened" deny that there has been a recession??????????
As if this was some kind of subjective measure, rather than a cold hard fact??????????
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It is sad I know, but I would rather believe what the Sun says that what Gordon Brown says at this present time
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'Labour's lost it.' That could be the headline if and when The Conservatives win the next election. They would not have won it, Labour would have lost it. I cannot comprehend the support the country currently has for the Conservative party. I don't know what their policies are (nor do they), they are devoid of any initiatives, what do they stand for? How can anyone support a party when they no nothing about it. Is it enough just to say 'we want a change.' A change to what. Elections are not won at the Despatch Box, the Conservatives have been pre-occupied with this for the last twelve months. Trying to score cheap points. They are won on how they can influence people's lives for the better. Gordon Brown is a passionate and caring politician no-one should deny that. He is best placed with his wealth of experience in Government. He may have been a better Chancellor of the Exchequer than Prime Minister but why hand the responsibility of running the country to a novice.
The last eighteen months in government has seen unprecedented times particularly in relation to Afghanistan and the creditcrunch/recession, law and order etc. In relation to the latter there are too many bad people out there who don't know the difference between right and wrong. If it's wrong don't do it. Simple.
Let the Conservative party declare it's policies now showing exactly where they stand on all the important issues giving the electorate a genuine opportunity and a basis for supporting them. As mentioned earlier how can you support a Political Party when you don't know what they stand for. How naive.
The Sun's decision to support the Conservative Party will backfire. On balance they will lose reader's rather than gain them. They have over estimated their own influence and self importance. They are jumping on the bandwagon supposedly backing a winner. Such vanity and arrogance. They both deserve each other.
'Labour's lost it' is the only way the Conservatives could win a General Election. They are incapable of winning it.
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292#
Hey, its a pan-government project. Theres always plenty of time. You know how slow these things move.
Glacially.
Is business good under the firebrand socialist? In some ways, you know, maybe it is. But its better under the former liberal PM that I'm subcontracting to now...
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282#
"Most SUN readers are claiming benefits."
Nothing like a sweeping statement that is impossible to back up with facts, eh?
I know you guys treat the electorate with contempt... I'm not sure I expected it to be quite this blatant though....
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"peej2k6 wrote:
Number 31:
I'm sorry. What relationship with the Labour Party. The erstwhile Mr Robinson was the chairman of the Young Conservatives!"
Maybe it was a different Nick Robinson, just as the Shaun Woodward the Labour Secretary of State for Northern Ireland must be different to the Shaun Woodward who was a Tory front bencher. Or the Labour Minister Quentin Davies must be a different one to the Quentin Davies who was elected as a Tory at the last election. And the Ed Balls who is so close to Brown can't be the same one who was a member of the Oxford University Conservative Association?
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322. At 3:17pm on 30 Sep 2009, johnshan wrote:
'Labour's lost it' is the only way the Conservatives could win a General Election. They are incapable of winning it.
------
So you are saying that, even though they are inept, it is unfair that Labour won't remain in power?
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322. At 3:17pm on 30 Sep 2009, johnshan wrote:
'Labour's lost it.' That could be the headline if and when The Conservatives win the next election. They would not have won it, Labour would have lost it.
-----------
The one begets the other, dontcha think?
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I cannot comprehend the support the country currently has for the Conservative party. I don't know what their policies are
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Because you haven't bothered to pay attention.
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(nor do they),
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Yes they do
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they are devoid of any initiatives, what do they stand for?
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Enterprise, hard work, and helping yourself instead of relying on handouts.
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How can anyone support a party when they no nothing about it. Is it enough just to say 'we want a change.' A change to what. Elections are not won at the Despatch Box, the Conservatives have been pre-occupied with this for the last twelve months. Trying to score cheap points.
---------------
Draper? Brown endlessly repeating the same phrase until the dumbed down masses pick it up themselves (you don't have any policies, cuts vs investment, more dumb rhetoric ad inf.)?
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They are won on how they can influence people's lives for the better. Gordon Brown is a passionate and caring politician no-one should deny that. He is best placed with his wealth of experience in Government. He may have been a better Chancellor of the Exchequer than Prime Minister but why hand the responsibility of running the country to a novice.
-----------------
Neither being caring, nor exprerienced are qualifications for being PM. A person can have been in a government for decades, if they are useless/ stupid/ self serving they are still going to be rubbish at teh job.
And he was a terrible chancellor. Not going to list all of the failures, google "Brown, Gold, 10p tax, pensions".
------------
The last eighteen months in government has seen unprecedented times particularly in relation to Afghanistan and the creditcrunch/recession, law and order etc. In relation to the latter there are too many bad people out there who don't know the difference between right and wrong. If it's wrong don't do it. Simple.
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Something we agree on, but if you are trying to absolve the government from responsibility when it comes to law and order, don't even try it.
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Let the Conservative party declare it's policies now showing exactly where they stand on all the important issues giving the electorate a genuine opportunity and a basis for supporting them. As mentioned earlier how can you support a Political Party when you don't know what they stand for. How naive.
---------------
We do know what they stand for. We don't have details yet cos Brown would just steal and repackage the ideas. You'll get details in the naer future. You may or may not get details of Labour's plans at the same time, but I doubt it.
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The Sun's decision to support the Conservative Party will backfire. On balance they will lose reader's rather than gain them. They have over estimated their own influence and self importance. They are jumping on the bandwagon supposedly backing a winner. Such vanity and arrogance. They both deserve each other.
-------------
Jumping on a bandwagon? You realise this means getting on board with popular opinion, don't you? Did you think this statement through?
The Sun is a rag, but its a rag a lot of people read. It WILL have an effect if those people are actually told about Brown's mistakes rather than having them ignored/ excused.
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'Labour's lost it' is the only way the Conservatives could win a General Election. They are incapable of winning it.
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See my first comment.
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No317 Otazl,
A member of a political trying to boost their electoral chances?
What a disgrace.
What is the world coming to?
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@ I_Despise_Labour
"I'm not talking about forever, jsut this one time to be safe, and when I refer to people using their votes I mean the enormous percentage of people who cant be bothered. Once a higher proportion of people are voting then there is potential for reform of the system not before."
That sounds uncommonly like a small boy trying to say he's never done it before and promises never to do it again. Show some spirit and vote for the party you support. We all know Labour will lose, probably by a huge margin, so why not take this historic opportunity to vote the way you want to? Or are you relying on other people to do it for you?
"I am most certainly not part of the problem, I never voted for Labour. I dont think anyone has ever described my attitude as mealy mouthed before, lol. Of course you're entitled to your opinion (even if it is garbage)."
You are part of the problem. If people actually voted for the candidates they want rather than voting, sheep-like, for their favourite colour, we wouldn't be in this position. You fall into this category as, despite claiming to support a smaller party, you won't vote for them. It's a bit like people supporting Man U when they're from Bristol.
So, are you saying you're voting for a party you don't want, on the basis that you dislike another party more? What a strange way to behave...
"Martha, I would like to marry you on the grounds that you are not Julie."
Hahahahaha
Try voting for someone else- you never know, you might even like it.
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322. At 3:17pm on 30 Sep 2009, johnshan wrote:
......Gordon Brown is a passionate and caring politician no-one should deny that. He is best placed with his wealth of experience in Government. He may have been a better Chancellor of the Exchequer than Prime Minister but why hand the responsibility of running the country to a novice.
The last eighteen months in government has seen unprecedented times particularly in relation to Afghanistan and the creditcrunch/recession, law and order etc. In relation to the latter there are too many bad people out there who don't know the difference between right and wrong. If it's wrong don't do it. Simple.
********************************************************88
If it's wrong don't do it. Simple. - A message Gordon Brown should have learned by now but hasn't.
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322 johnshan
You seem to forget that as the Opposition party, the Tories only need to put the meat on the bones of their policies once an election has been formally called, and GB has been to The Queen to formally dissolve parliament. Until such time, there IS no election, and therefore there IS no compulsion to reveal their plans to Labour, who would then have 8 months to go steal, twist, and hi-jack them.
If you want to know so badly what the Conservative policies at the next election will be in such detail, go to your inglorious leader and tell him to call an election NOW.
Otherwise, maybe you should start acting like the party of Government and less liek the receeding force in british politics.
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329
Faulty logic at the end there.
"Martha, I would like to marry you on the grounds that you are not Julie."
A bit more like "Martha, I would like to marry you on the grounds that I am required to marry someone. Julie is repulsive, and all of the other possibilities will remain celibate for the rest of their lives."
Voting one of two ways is the unfortunate consequence of our system, but it is I'm afraid the only viable option. It is you who is naive if you believe otherwise.
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No323 Fubar,
Pan government contract,
Business good under Gordon,
Full time blogger,
Ecstasy under the former Liberal PM.
I hope you continue to flourish. Try and find time to have a look at that social science question we touched on the other night. It is about the nature of the society in which we live.It has nothing to do with hate, envy or resentment.By the way, St Thomas ..., Author of Utopia.
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"West_London_Willy wrote:
Otherwise, maybe you should start acting like the party of Government and less liek the receeding force in british politics."
Haven't you heard? Labour are trying to convince everybody that they aren't the party in power after all they are the insurgents, and not the incumbents anymore.
Or to put it another way:
We don't want to actually have to stand on our record lets hope there are enough idiots who believe that the last 12 years were all the fault of the Tories, mention Thatcher as much as possible and enough of the lemmings might just follow us off the cliff.
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@Potatolord
As I said, garbage!!! There's nothing sheep like about my voting, this will be the first time I've voted Tory. I'm not saying I dont want them, I said I dont trust them to extract us from Europe. I will vote UKIP next time in the hope that the anti-europe movement has gained a bit more ground by then.
I'm not relying on other people -that's the whole point. There are still a large number of people who would vote for my cat if I put a red rosette on it. There is always the client state that will vote for them. Rather than assuming the tories are going to get rid of them I'm going to vote for them to be on the safe side.
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Well if Labour have lost it and Brown goes I for one will be upset. I was looking forward to the next Labour Party conference where Gordon and Sarah planned to renew their marriage vows accompanied by an acapella choir and members from the Royal Ballet performing a scene from Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet.
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Surely the true cost(£)of any such political campaigning, for whichever party, should be declared as an 'electoral expense'.
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@332 greathay
lol, actually more like "I will marry Martha because she will do for now and a younger more attractive version is bound to turn up in 5 years"!!
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Will Brown get his mug shot stuck inside a light bulb in 8 months time?
Something tells the back benchers are already sharpening their knives!!!!
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No335 I Despise,
Are you aware that Kenneth Clark thinks that current Tory policy, and those responsible for its development are 'barmy'.
What other barmy policies do you think the Tories may have up their sleeves?
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@ greatHayemaker
332. At 4:11pm on 30 Sep 2009, greatHayemaker wrote:
329
Faulty logic at the end there.
"Martha, I would like to marry you on the grounds that you are not Julie."
A bit more like "Martha, I would like to marry you on the grounds that I am required to marry someone. Julie is repulsive, and all of the other possibilities will remain celibate for the rest of their lives."
Voting one of two ways is the unfortunate consequence of our system, but it is I'm afraid the only viable option. It is you who is naive if you believe otherwise."
Hmm. Or you could always just dip your toe in the water with the many other interesting candidates.
It's only a consequence as long as people believe that if they keep voting the way they are told they should, then in some magical future things will work out. They won't.
In many consituencies the LibDems actually might have a chance, between their traditional voters and the staunch labour voters who would never vote conservative under any conditions. But you won't vote for them "just in case".
For heaven's sake, if enough people vote Respect or BNP, the main parties may actually pay some attention.
Why not give it a try? What have you got to lose? Do you really think that the conservatives will be much better than labour? All the evidence suggests that there is little in it- they're both party machines and long ago lost any ideals they might have had.
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Both Harriett Harman and Gordon Brown have stated that voters win elections, not newspapers. Correct. BUT - why then is Harmann "angry" (her word) at the change of The Sun's allegiance, if newspapers don't win elections? Answer - both she and Brown know that the game's up, and that even The Sun has to call things as it sees them. The Sun knows that finally, the vast majority of the electorate have found Labour out for the sleazy, incompetent, stupid, money-grabbing, over-taxing, wealth-destroying, liberty-taking, war-mongering, snooping, distrustful and untrustworthy politicians they are. Resign now, all of you Labour shower - at least that way you might keep a shred of dignity, while doing the country a huge favour.
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@ I_Despise_Labour
"As I said, garbage!!! There's nothing sheep like about my voting, this will be the first time I've voted Tory. I'm not saying I dont want them, I said I dont trust them to extract us from Europe. I will vote UKIP next time in the hope that the anti-europe movement has gained a bit more ground by then.
I'm not relying on other people -that's the whole point. There are still a large number of people who would vote for my cat if I put a red rosette on it. There is always the client state that will vote for them. Rather than assuming the tories are going to get rid of them I'm going to vote for them to be on the safe side."
Yeah, I'm sure you've always intended to try harder next time. The trouble is that the next time never quite seems to arrive, does it?
I'm glad you've admitted that you're voting for a party you don't want as you're too afraid to vote for the party you do want. Well done, mate. Give yourself a pat on the back.
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Re: 289, 295, 320
Calm down. I haven't come out of any woodwork thanks - I'm just commenting on a topical debate that has appeared today - I don't see that as hypocritical really. It doesn't matter if I happen to be Red, Blue, Yellow or Green or whatever does it - you agree that the Sun is worthy of derision and isn't that waht this whole debate is about? How can such as tawdry rag occupy such a seemingly pivotal role in our ploitical system? That's the scandal here. I totally agree that Labour palling up to them is despicable too - I think any party's association with these papers degrades their integrity.
Yes, I do deplore the Mirror's blatant fabrication (of abuse of 'POWs')too. This just backs up my point - all these rags are poison and to have people minds swayed by them like sheep is shameful.
Anyway, keep it up - this is fascinating.
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341
No, its not that simple.
I have no doubt in some constituencies independents/ smaller parties will win this time. And all the best to them, genuinely.
However, the Prime Minister will not be an independent, or someone from one of the small parties. If our system was working as it should, this would not matter. Our representatives would take our views to parliament, and act accordingly.
However, due to the almighty incentive of party whip, our Prime Minister wields a far heftier clout than he should. He or she can force legislation through, in spite of what we might wish from our representatives.
Until there is electoral reform therefore, there is very little point in voting for a representative who will not be from one of the party's that has a realistic prospect of spawning a PM. You might call it gutsy, daring etc. to give it a go, I call it naive.
And yes, I know for a fact that the Tory's will be vastly better for me personally. I hope they will also be better for the country as a whole, I will have to wait and see on that point, but I will take a change over the current incumbents any day.
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All Media; newspapers, tv & radio etc should confine themselves to the facts, certainly discuss the relative merits of individual party manifesto's but leave us, the voters, to form our own opinions.
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340. At 4:47pm on 30 Sep 2009, braveSouter wrote:
No335 I Despise,
Are you aware that Kenneth Clark thinks that current Tory policy, and those responsible for its development are 'barmy'.
What other barmy policies do you think the Tories may have up their sleeves?
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No longer able to defend your party then Souter? Having to resort to the 'slag off the opposition ploy'. Sure sign of a loser.
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OK, lets try again...
the Super Soaraway Sun is the best quality paper out there.
it is filled with interesting articles to stretch the intellect of even the most discerning of readers.
it is not filled with all the celebrity fluff common in other newspapers and it is much loved on Merseyside.
It is the best barometer of the political weather that it is possible to read, and its advice should be followed to the letter.
It has the best and most balanced views on immigration, mental health, the unemployed, anything foreign (especially Eastern European), and Liverpool football fans.
I think Rupert Murdoch is a lovely man and should be given not one but two knighthoods, a Victoria cross and the freedom of the city of London in perpetuity, just for being such a lovely man.
I read the sun regularly and order three copies every day just in case something happens to the other two copies.
I think that in these times of economic turmoil that we should forego the expense of an election and just let the editor of the sun pick our government for us. it's really that good.
(please look up the meaning of "Ironic" before commenting on this post.)
now lets see if this one gets past the moderators.
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Anyone remember the day before the 1979 General Election when the TUC issued the ultimatum that if a Conservative Government was elected the following day, it would call a general strike? (Which it did to less than resounding support)
Seems that lots of groups try to influence these things for their own agenda/advantage.
Nothing ever changes ....
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346. At 5:18pm on 30 Sep 2009, popsk239 wrote:
All Media; newspapers, tv & radio etc should confine themselves to the facts, certainly discuss the relative merits of individual party manifesto's but leave us, the voters, to form our own opinions.
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In an ideal world, that makes sense. However we don't live in such a Nirvana. Government 'facts', as we know, only tell us what the Government of the day wants us to know. The media therefore is needed to dig out additional information to either support the 'facts' or indeed to challenge them.
Intentionally or otherwise this could be interpreted as showing a bias.
Leaving the public to make up their own minds is fine provided they are presented with the truth. As we are all aware this very rarely happens and the media have the resources to get the truth; something the average voter doesn't have.
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