Idelogical chasm? Tough sell
This morning, Peter Mandelson claimed that there was an ideological "chasm" between Labour and the Tories.
It is all part of the strategy for this Labour conference to convince the electorate that it has a choice between parties - not just a choice of whether or not to kick out Gordon Brown.
It should have occurred to me when he said it, that this is the same Peter Mandelson who once declare himself to be "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich".
The party's pitch is that it - a party of the centre left - can be trusted to tackle bankers' bonuses and to cut spending in a way that a free-market Tory party simply cannot.
This may be a tougher sell, Labour strategists concede, than Peter Mandelson would wish it to be.
I'm 
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Sorry but you have lost me completely with this one .....
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And he was elected by whom. He is accountable to which constituents. He seems to hold a lot of power and responsibility but how did he get is as as far as I am aware nobody voted for him to represent them in the UK government. He was even running the country for a bit whilst Gordon was on holiday - so we had a totally un-elected leader (a bit like dictatorships do).
And the funny thing is that he did not get his responsibilities because he was mates with Gordon. In fact he is definitely not Gordon's friend. He was given the responsibilities to help shore-up Gordon's position in the Labour party. Now is this any way for a democracy to select it's leaders ?
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Mandelson also managed to tie himself in knots protesting that the FSA had worked fine.... until it stopped working
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"Peter Mandelson claimed that there was an ideological "chasm" between Labour and the Tories"
Let us hear it for clear blue/red water then!
I just wish that the Labour party had not acted like Tories since 1997. Where was the curbing of the irrational excesses before the bubble burst.
The is an ideological "chasm" between Labour and the Tories, however the actions of both parties are quite similar. If Labour had not seen the "chasm" between rich and poor had not grown so much under Labour I might be prepared to believe him. It isn't the ideology it is the actions that count.
Labour have one last chance to show the Nation who they are and if they take it they may get re-elected. This chance is to dramatically reduce the gap between rich and poor in the autumn budget. Tax the rich fairly for once (and introduce a National Maximum Income until the debt is repaid!).
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I agree that this is a tough sell - it seems that they are trying to convince the voters that they know the best way out of this mess even though they are the people who got us into the problem in the first place!
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I'll believe that is a choice between parties when Labour kick Brown out. Still wouldn't trust them to rebuild the country and the economy though.
Its telling though that Labour have said its not just about kicking Brown out at the next election, someone there has finally pointed out to them that they are going to lose if he's leader.
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There is no democratic accountability in British politics.
Lord Peter Mandelson proves that.
The Labour ruling elite have run out of time & what ever modicum of talent they had to hoodwink there way into power.
They have destroyed the wealth of the nation, destroyed the Pounds value & turned Great britain into an impoverished laughing stock.
Labours true legacy? Inter-generational debt & British poverty.
Churchill once said: "Socialism is the equal sharing of misery" - Labour have certainly achieved that for the people whilst troughing away at our expense & living high on the hog.
Enough - we want an election - not because the Tories will be any better but because there is no mandate or trust from the people in Browns unmandated leadership.
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Would that be the same Peter Mandlesnake that encourages Scottish Barron's to get out of jail free after passing community chest and go?
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Peter Mandelson... Would you buy a used car from that guy?
Sure, HE has a fight. He might find himself displaced if NuLab fail to get re-elected. No doubt he's already fixed himself up with a comfortable future in that event.
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Another example of Labours contempt for the elctorate -
Ater 12 years of encouraging rabid full blooded dog-eat-dog capitalism in the city, support for privatisation and subsidisation of the super rich by the average (i'm thinking in terms of tax paid as a proportion of income), and generally denying that anyone in the party had ever read Karl Marx...
do they really think that the public will suddenly be fooled by lip service to old labour socialist principles? when the whole point of the 'new labour' rebranding was to distance itself from those exact same philosophies.
Although, come to think of it, the number of times I 've heard Labour described as 'marxist' 'socialist' and even communist on this blog, it may be that the public doesn't have a clue about the specific meaning of these labels any more, or simply sees them as derrogatory terms ( as in the US political scene)to be used as & when, regardless of how apropriate they actually are.
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Less of a chasm, more a slight crack.
I find it a little odd that Mandi speaks of ideology when he has always seemed to change his ideology to suit his circumstances.
The difference i can see is in terminology, swingeing cuts compared to necessary cuts.
Same thing, same amount, same nonsense.
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The only chasm Mandelson can accurately speak of is the one he's got his own head up.
Is he being deliberately offensive??
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so if i've understod the blog correctly, after 12 years, labour have choosen this moment to try to remind the public of their 'socialist' credentials.
If anyone from the labour party can explain to me , in a logical & convincing fashion,how exactly redistributing wealth from the taxpayer (ie, the common man)in order to save the banks from mistakes caused by their own greed and their unshakable belief in the benefits of capitalism,
if anyone can explain to me how this wasn't a massive & fundamental betrayal of the intrinsic tennants of Karl Marx, then I'll vote labour.
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Yet this man is prepared to cross this "Idealogical Chasm" as reported in his interview with the Sunday Times (I could work with the Tories, front page of the Times yesterday), or is he just making sure that he retains some sort of power whichever way the wind blows? As for this "Idealogical Chasm" this is most blatantly not so. As we move towards the election, I predict (and I am right so far) that the Labour promises will get ever nearer to Tory policy. Two weeks ago, Labour were "No cuts in government spending" remember? As soon as ALL the opinion polls unanimously reported the public more in favour of the Tories "We will cut public Spending", We saw yet another major shift in Labour Policy. The simple, undeniable truth is that Labour will say or agree to ANYTHING to hold on to power. The reason they won't hang on to power is not because the tories are better, but quite simply because nobody can believe labour anymore. What for instance happened to the drastic action they promised on MP's expenses? Where is it?
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Anything Mandellson says, can be taken with an enormous pinch of salt, if his past record is anything to go by. The man is incapable of recognising truth if it bit him. Like Brown, whom he would happily destroy in the hope of succeeding him, he is totally without any sense of integrity or any sense of responsibility for the people of this country who employ him. Whatever faults the Tories may have, I suspect that the welfare of Britain and it's people figure somewhere in their makeup, unlike this dreadful parody of a party which masquerades as the Labour party.
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A tough sell indeed! Especially in view of Mandelson's comments as Nick highlighted, plus 12 years when Labour have failed to address the issue as they were in thrall to the City and happy to collect the income and corporation taxes that the Banks generated.
Typical of Labour's hypocrisy, also highlighted by Ed Balls' pledge to find £2 billion savings from the Department for Children, Schools and Families, whilst spending £3 million on a lavish makeover of their offices. The same Department that is hounding two female policewomen over their private child-minding arrangements and telling them they are breaking the law because they are not registered child minders.
So much for helping hard-working families!
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There is an idealogical chasm;
Newlabour are profligate wasters of tax payers money.
The tories want to cut spending.
no amount of bleating about wise spending and ideology can get newlabour away from their track record of spending far too much money for far too long on far too many projects without the faintest idea of getting good value for money.
if you stand in the corner and shout 'I've got all the moeny' people will take advantage; newlabour only have themselves to blame for the way construction companies and the like took advantage of their largessse.
Newlabour are quite simply incompetent at managing the public purse and have absolutely no intention of cutting the national debt; all comments to the contrary are disingenuous.
They have no policies, people are bored with endless agendas and sick of the tiresome infighting. No one has a clue what they stand for except waste and name calling - from tory toffs; the bullingdon bullies; the far right; the nasty party, you name it newlabour have dreamed up a catchy put down for it. If they'd spent more time governing and less time investing in minding their own backs we might not have been in this mess. But we are and people want them to go.
They should call off the conference, it's a waste of money, we've heard it all before and they are the most astonishingly bad deliverers of their own high blown rhetoric.
Call an election.
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As usual the Govt is trying to take the electorate for fools. This Orwellian denial of their previous pronouncements is too obvious to sweep under the carpet. Even more difficult to dispose of is the corpse of the UK economy - the tell-tale evidence of economic mismanagement on a grandiose scale. So instead we have the diversionary tactic of insisting on a vast policy gulf beween the parties.
In reality, there is a bigger issue of trust. Would you trust the legless drunk who stumbles out of a car crash insisting they were the best people to right the damage?
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Surely it isn't the message, which is laudible, but the messenger.
Mandelson has previous, which most knowledgable political aficionados will be familiar with.
Notwithstanding, is it not a bit of a myth that the Conservative Party favour big business and the bankers? After all, Labour could and should have done somewhat better in this regard in recent months.
Another example of Brown and Mandelson reacting to events rather than influencing them.
Labour will lose the 2010 General Election because of the deep, deep unpopularity of Brown. How much better would they fare, if at all, with a new leader not tainted by any connection with his/her predecessors?
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There certainly IS a difference between the parties, but it's not the one Mandy would have us believe exists.
To an extent it is between retaining Gordon Brown or deciding that new blood is required (or as I am certain some labour activists would term it, "better the devil you know")
But it's actually much more than that. It's Labour positioning itself as a 'centre-left' party when there is actually more personal wealth in the Cabinet than in the Shadow Cabinet. It's about extending the Car Scrappage scheme, when a) we have no money to pay for it, and b) the car manufacturing jobs all being overseas - and how Labour can't see that. It's about Gordon Brown being more interested in his Statesman Of The Year award than he would be about being Minister of the Minute back home. it's about talking up integrity, when Baroness Scotland is stil in her job.
All in all, it's about a choice between an inept, morally and fiscally bankrupt administration and an opposition party that, if they had nothing else, can point to 'not being as bad as Labour' as a winning campaign slogan agreeable to the vast majority of tax-paying british voters (or 'the forgotten millions' as I like to think of us.)
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Labour's electoral campaign will come down to the following:
a) Will the public believe that the Conservatives want to slash public services beyond want is necessary to bring costs in line with tax revenues - and impact on quality of service as a result?
b) Even if the answer to the above is yes, is the public that fed up with Labour that they want to rid of the current government regardless?
I suspect that this will be the unsurmountable problem for Labour next year; there is a solid feeling in the country that this Government has run out of steam and has no vision for a future term in office.
There may be no urgent enthusiasm for an incoming tory administration but I suspect that enough voters will give them a chance to avoid having to put up with more of the same.
If Labour continue to simply portray the tories as the Child Catcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang will just show that they have no positive vision of their own. All Governments have a natural shelf life and this one is well and truely on the turn.
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Gordon Brown stated in his interview with Andrew Marr yesterday...
'...you can't go back to the Tory stuff about free markets deciding everything.'
He actually says this approx half way through the interview.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/andrew_marr_show/8277422.stm
Just who does this clown think he's kidding?...just what does he think he's been presiding over for the last 12 years?
I'm convinced he makes this stuff up as he goes along and that he actually believes his own rhetoric i.e. that he single handedly saved the world from economic collapse. He'll start wearing his pants on the outside next. It's classic arsonist turned fireman-hero delusion.
Nice to see that the BBC are at last growing some cajones (Re Andrew Marr interview)
KEEP TAKING THE PILLS GORDON!
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NuLabour has reached the point which it took the tories 18 years to arrive at. Time for change. When the country becomes restless and wants a change as to who is in power, there really is no way they are going to have their minds changed at this late stage. Provided Cameron doesn`t do a Kinnock he is assured of a win, the size of which will depend on as to whether Brown has taken sick leave or not. He is clearly suffering from fatigue, both mentally and physically so he shouldn`t have too much of a problem in getting a sick note. Mandy is now trying to ring the changes on the line NuLabour previously took of, the tories being a nasty party. The problem is there are so many things wrong with Nulabour the tories don`t know what to choose to go on first. The empty seats said it all yesterday. Labour has even lost control over its own activists. In the good old days of Alistair and Mandy the place would have been packed and everyone would have been on message. I bet the woman who was knitting, listening to Mandy`s rant, won`t be flavour of the day with him; but there should be some good cartoons in tomorrows papers.
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if Labour really do get tough on the bankers, if it's not just hot air ... a big if ... then that could be clear blue water
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Mandleson's speech was shrill and uncertain at best; at worst complacent and repetitive. Same old name calling, same old rally cries; not a shred of evidence or policy for how to get out of this mess.
Call an election.
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Rather ironic that this unelected prima donna Mandelson, who has twice had to relinquish public office before due to "irregularities" - and who sees no "idealogical chasm" when he's a fellow guest on a luxury yacht along with Goeorge Osborne, should now be spouting off about banker's bonuses. What a hypocrite he is. If our politicians pursued the issue of their own expenses (which it seems they hope and believe the public has forgotten about, but the public hasn't forgotten, or forgiven) with the same zeal, we just maybe might get somewhere. But no - let's not hold our breath. Caledonian Comment
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I recall the same Peter Mandleson claiming a couple of years ago that one of New Labour's great achievements was to force the Conservatives to abandon for ever 'Thatcherism' in favour of centerist policies if they ever hoped to be elected. His current utterances are therefore nonsense. Can anyone turn up the transcript?
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It's not just about bashing the bankers...it's about finance as well.
...and we ALL know that Mandelson has a few skeletons in the cupboard on that subject...don't we!
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I've just heard Mandelson's speech. He's just written his CV for the Tory party.
A more conservative speech I have yet to hear but unfortunately he was at the wrong conference.
He must have forgotton that all he wishes for will be held back by the constraints of the unions and a country that is near bankrupt.
Oh that he had not had to admit to 12 years of bad management by a labour government that is now reeking havoc on jobs homes and the country.
We have not forgotton the MP's expenses scandal Afghanistan Iraq and the disgusting throwing away of our money that has landed us in the present crisis.
Labour were not looking in as they would like to portray they were well and truly in it and will be held fully responsible.
No matter how clever the words it will always be down to actions. Last time we voted them in because of Mandelson's words look what we've got.
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Here we go election time is drawing neigh, expect to hear we'll do this and promise that.
Its OK having party conferences they forget it's only their own folks that are clapping and cheering... not the general public and who the heck is going to sit in front of a telly all day listening to that garbage, do they not realize the damage has been done... don't know why the don't hire a clapping machine from the Beeb. Hey, that would work out cheaper.
Sorry non of that will convince me any... I guy who can't even decide when to have an election or to have the 10p tax should never be a Minister let alone Prime Minister, there are other things as well be will lead us off-topic.
So let the flock keep on clapping praising the great leader and just bring on the election.
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9. At 2:36pm on 28 Sep 2009, atrisse wrote:
Peter Mandelson... Would you buy a used car from that guy?
Sure, HE has a fight. He might find himself displaced if NuLab fail to get re-elected. No doubt he's already fixed himself up with a comfortable future in that event.
===
Indeed. He is already touting for a job with the Conservatives:
"LORD Mandelson has disclosed that he is ready to accept a job under a future Conservative government."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6850863.ece
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@ #22 - CockedDice
"If Labour continue to simply portray the tories as the Child Catcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang will just show that they have no positive vision of their own."
SO true, and brilliantly put, bravo sir
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23. At 3:00pm on 28 Sep 2009, Mister_E_Man wrote:
Is Mandelson on drugs too??
Maybe they all are....
--------------------------
If they're not, maybe they should be....
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I just wish we could start again. Mandelson has had a second and third attempt. I bet he's not overdrawn each month like the majority of us.
Give me a break and get someone to sort out this mess. Stop spin, stop lying. I'm tired of this. I work too hard and worry too much about my family to just bury my head any more. We need a change.
My wife's car was V reg before it collapsed last week. No car scrappage for me.
I'm tired.
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Nick
Please challenge these politicians about bank bonuses. They are only paid if the bank as a whole does well and makes money. Now the banks are regulated by the FSA who follow the rules of the Treasury in relation to the amount of money is floating around the economy. That right was stripped from the Bank of England by a certain Mr James Gordon Brown and given to a new authority - the FSA. This all worked well during the 'no more boom and bust' period.
BUT you cannot blame the banks for paying bonuses. It is the way they operate to get the best people in to make money. It is what banks do, and will a long time after this lousy government is gone. Rushed legislation is not the way forward, prudent regulation is what is needed and complex investments that were seen during the boom need to be banned not bonuses.
Mandy also forgets that those who create the mess are not those who should clear it up. This government is just simply dying on a day to day basis. Even when they seem to get something right it falls apart in their hands and I wouldn't be surprised to see a few late night pharmacies open for more than just Gordon this week in Brighton.
Please do us all a favour though and call that election soon - I imagine once Ireland has voted YES we should see the election coming, maybe even as soon as November!
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The inescapable truth is that the morally right thing to do, is to call an election now and let democracy and the people have their rightful say.
We have had the Iraq fiasco, the meaningless loss of life in Afghanistan, the Expenses Scandal, the Baroness Scotland blunder and the passing of power to an un-elected PM and the Ponce of Darkness.
I may feel powerless to affect justice, but I'll add one more voice to the call. Let’s hear the clamour and let’s see just how loud it can get.
So join in. If you too, are of the disgruntled masses, anywhere and everywhere you get the chance, add to the call:
THIS IS OUR DEMOCRACY AND WE WANT AN ELECTION AND WE WANT IT RIGHT NOW!
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"Is Mandelson on drugs too??
Maybe they all are...."
Is this a criticism or are you just seeking out like-minded folk, Mister E Man?
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I honestly don't think Gordon will give a toss about the GE now!
Navy seizes cocaine 'worth £240m'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8277483.stm
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"This may be a tougher sell, Labour strategists concede, than Peter Mandelson would wish it to be."
Hah. You can say that again. Then again, if anyone's going to buy it, it'll be the British electorate. Any other nation that hasnt been equally as dumbed down and had its teeth pulled for the last 12 years would probably have burned them out of their offices by now.
ideological chasm, eh? I wonder where they've hid that? Is that something that is locked away in a glass case in the No10 bunker with a notice saying "break only in the event of an election"???
Theres no chasm between them. Any of them. Rather than being honest about what they stand for and what they really believe in, all they are all doing is trying to stand on that one spot in the centre (the sweet spot?) where the majority of the votes are that will get them into another 5 years troughing and lining their own nests.
How else would a political organisation, with public ownership at its heart and representation of the workers, abandon clause 4, not repeal any of the 1980s union legislation, take us into 4 wars at least one of them illegal and cosy up to the very financial sector that they proclaim is responsible for putting the country on its back?
Because they dont give a stuff for what they once stood for, all they care about is the power and the money and everything and everyone else be damned. I'm alright Jack (Dromey??) pull that ladder up.
They're all as bad as each other.
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Any party which appoints the like of Mandelson to any positon is deserving of contempt. That Brown allowed himself to be coerced into this speaks volumes.
Labour, in front of the electorate, continue with the false mantra that the books will be better on the day that they are re-elected than if the Tories win. They therefore, and only they, will soften any 'cutbacks' which they may have to make.
The facts which they stupidly think the public does not know are that government borrowing is increasing and the huge gap between government expenditure and income from taxation etc is still growing at an accelerating pace. We are all in for a major shortage of rations whoever we elect and the sooner the upcoming pain is applied, the sooner it will ease.
Of course, following what is now a traditional merry-go-round, the Tories will come in and sort it out in a most painful but necessary way thus getting us back to balance as soon as possible. We will then elect Labour because we have forgotten why the Tories had to do what they did. Labour will then wastes this new legacy, etc etc
Groundhog Day!
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When did we lose integrity, honesty? My father brought me up to be polite, think of others and never lie. What happened? We have let politicians take over the country. We have let them bleed us dry with their expenses. We have let them make decisions we did not agree with. We let them spin and didn't do anything about it. We just shake our heads!
Let's get this country back. Let's show them we no longer agree with the status quo. If enough of us get off our back sides we could show them the errors they have made.
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Nick,
"It should have occurred to me when he said it, that this is the same Peter Mandelson who once declare himself to be "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich".
The Andrew Marr pill popping question seems to have lit a few fires in the minds of BBC journalists. Yes - you actually can ask Labour politicians tough questions. Labour need you more than you need them. They need the oxygen of publicity.
This means from now on you can challenge our government when they distort the truth or tell lies. There is no need to worry about being cut off from the gravy train of easy "scoops" and easy access to Ministers.
Here is an example from Fraser Nelson, which will show you how to avoid having the wool pulled over your eyes when Labour politicians tell you they paid down the countries debt.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5371156/either-debt-goes-up-or-goes-down-it-really-is-that-simple.thtml
P.S. I'm looking forward to hearing more from the new "journalism led BBC".
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I have never really understood this bank bashing and bonuses fear.
Surely if the bankers are receiving big bonuses then aren't we then getting a lot of that money back in taxes?
In fact we would be getting back more than if it were corporation tax surely!
Did someone say 50%?
Or is this the politics of envy that are in Labours best interests to rekindle.
Labour continue to do all they can to make out there is still class struggle within the UK. Labour who support the working classes...... that'd pretty much all of us then. I work so I must be working class.
David Cameron has a job, that makes him working class too. Doesn't it?
Good job they're reaching out to the middle classes, because I don't think there are any anymore.
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This morning, Peter Mandelson claimed that there was an ideological "chasm" between Labour and the Tories.
==========================
That is true - one party believes in democracy and one doesn't.
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There used to be a bridge over this 'ideological chasm' - it was called 'public opinion'. Unfortunately for Lord Mandelson and the Labour Party (and, I suspect, some on the opposite side) little attention is being paid to this. Instead, all we are offered is a possible crossing point some 9 month's away. If the present Government intends to make us travel that long road, they would do well to jump into aforementioned ideological chasm, taking their spin, deceit and often downright lies with them.
Call an election!
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I hope there is a chasm and the eletorate can see it.
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Nick
How does this Idealogical Chasm sit with Manddy saying that he could work with the Tory's after they defeat Labour at the next election?
This just smacks of more Fall of Berlin Bunker statments.
All that will happen between now and the next election is the Tory's saying something. Labour rubbishing it, then adopting it a few month later. They are now devoid of any ideas of getting us out of the Brown Depression.
Keep taking the tablets and all will look rosey.
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Mandleson and Brown along with the other labour ministers are yesterday's men. Simple as that!
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Lets see the banks realised they could borrow endless money to invest huge multiples of their real capital but still get most of the profit.
Then the lab governement realises that more public service jobs mean more votes (dont want to lose your job with the tories do you), more tax, more money to spend on...public jobs... And each time around we go more taxes, more expenditure (but oops that money went to a french company, oops that went in my pocket...oops that job went to my mate who needed a job in a quango..)
oh and I need a car for my job...sorry I meant to say I need Lord before my name for my job.
And a recession hits, and suddenly the expenditure cant be supported by tax revenues...remarkably similar to the bank situation that was called reckless dont you agree?
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How do you spell idelogical?
Why is dyslexia such a difficult word to spell?
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Lord ('elpus) Mandelson is a busy boy. Blaming BBC for lazy journalism and so smearing the corporation in the event that Nick doesn't come up with teh goods and give GB et al glowing coverage. Denying that he woudl ever work for the Tories yet offering himself to serve his country in whatever role was needed post the next election!!
Now he is spouting absolute tosh about yawning chasms and that Labour are better suited to get us out of debt (presumably because they alone were responsible for plunging us into the mire and putting the country into hock for years to come).
Let's hope it's all a dream and we wake up tomorrow to discover the police have found two sets of clothes on the Brighton Beach (Mandy's and GB's) - a la Perrin and Stonehouse
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Didn't Mandy say they were the party of the middle?
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How can Labour claim that their cuts!
Hospitals and A&E's in areas with a Tory MP during the boom years!
Plus destroying private sector pensions becuse they are all working class!
Police now routinely refusing to handle front line calls expecting local counsels to detect and deter crime for them!
Schools still churning out their full 50% quotas of in-nemerate and illiterate early leavers they always have during Labours school spending frenzy.
Hospitals still desperatly short of front line staff to meet the EU working hours directive with the longest waiting lists in Europe despite four fold increase in unproductive funding.
Our Armed forces have never been so under equiped or under manned since the Napoleonic wars. Now we have had not just one war under Labour but at least three with mad Brown alreay threatening Iran with another!
We have the best paid of our State pensioners on 14% of average wages it was 40% under Thatcher. The rest find half theirs is bing given to what Brown hopes are Labour voters!
How can that be more honest than what the Tories did and or will do?
More aceptable to the people Labour now desperately need to vote for them?
For these are the those who are the the prudent and productive private sector/middle classes who generate the entire wealth that Labour diverts to others to buy votes!
Which comedian Vince Cable comicaly calls redisributative taxes!
Even when Labours own client states the Public Sector and the Brown pampered Benefit 10 millons!
Don't trust Labour especialy Brown to keep them in the style Labour has made them acustom to for thirteen years of Browns largess.
So it is not now what is cut that will win the election!
But whome Brown will chose not to be the new New Labour victims!
As all the usual victims have already voted Tory at the EU elections, and council elections.
Most certainly will again at the next election what ever spin the BBC puts on Browns or his collegues antics!
Who is left?
To be bribed to vote Labour?
When Labour are already behind the Ukip in the European elections?
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There IS an ideological chasm between Labour and the Cons (unfortunate abbreviation).
If there is no money, the Cons will spend cautiously and actively pursue possible savings.
Labour will continue to spend as if there is no tomorrow. And if they were allowed to behave like that for another 5 years, there wouldn't be !
For more than 10 years the UK has been living beyond its means - way beyond ! Even the world financial organisations are considering downgrading Britain's credit worthiness. The bottom is also falling out of the pound exchange rates.
This is the beginning of the end, unless a firm tournique is applied AT ONCE to our financial haemmoraging.
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lmao, it's easy to prove that the parties differ....
One of them has been in power for the last 12 years and has ruined everything they touch and the other parties haven't!!
I'm afraid I'm not buying into the whole "We're best placed to fix the country as we're the ones who ruined it" argument.
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Nick
As has been said by others, the Labour Government has been responsible for running the country for over 12 years now.
The Country is in a very bad way financially and it happened during the last 12 years during their watch.
In May/June/July 2009, as you have pointed out in earlier statements and following a challenge by Lord Mandelson, GB tried saying Tory Cuts v Labour Investment. That didn’t work so now GB and company have started using the word CUTS, Ed Balls miraculously has found £2Bn of savings just like that. Cutting Heads and Deputies he says. Hang on, didn’t this Government say that good schools had Good Leadership!!! hmmm so lets cut the leadership of schools OK. Also, from my experience with education, I understand that 25% of schools do not have a full time Head so maybe that will be the saving just don’t recruit them.
I also note that on Radio 4 today Andy Burnam would not go as far as Ed Balls, and refused to say if any cuts would or would not be made in the NHS budget. Andy Burnam said that was a matter for Alistair Darling not him. He did however hint that there was a difference between front and back office, so guess where Labour CUTS are going to be made in the NHS.
So yes a chasm does exist, between those, both Conservative and Lib Dem, who have said that cuts must be made and they have been consistent in this. Or Labour who tried to say that no cuts were needed but they would invest (spend more). But as stated above that didn’t work so now they are climbing on the cuts agenda. Though GB yesterday with Andrew Marr tried to avoid that again saying that AM was wrong it was not £6000 a second debt being rung up.
They are now trying to say that the Conservatives are inexperienced so they will not be able to sort out the mess Labour have been responsible for. I wonder if GB has queried Obama's experience during the last 9 months, did he mention it at the G20 I wonder, or in the Kitchen at the UN?
The Labour Government who are flapping around like a dying fish, trying to do something that may rescue them.
A number of Labour supporters realise that they have a real problem, pledge cards (what happened to them??) and other fancy ideas won’t save them even GB stepping down will not save them. Did anybody notice the empty hall during Alistair Darlings Keynote speech?
Call an election and get it over with. GB stop putting party before Country. The hanging on bit is hurting the country big time. A new Government is needed that has the credibility to make decisions. The Public Sector is now going in to limbo. I have even heard civil servants being instructed to listen to David Cameron so as to understand future Government policy.
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No18 RockingRobin
Can you remember, a short time ago, when The Bullingdon Kids were boasting about how they would match the government's proposed spending plans if and when they were elected? Do you think they were right to do so? Do you think that when they meet the G20 leaders to tell them that their global strategy is wrong, they will be wearing their short trousers,or their colourful uniforms acquired during membership of such a thuggish outfit?
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How delicious to see the persistence of the BBC's cynical contempt for a Labour Government and its ministers. I expect such contempt from the Daily Mail. I do not like it from a citizen funded service. Perhaps the next government will scrap the BBC for failing to provide fair and decent coverage of politics.
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Of course there is a difference between the Labour and Conservative parties: Labour squanders all the money and leaves the country in a mess, and the Tories clean it up and restore sanity. It's happened twice now in my adult life.
Roll on the election !
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No38 DumbVoter,
What democracy are you talking about? Even politically thick Tory bloggers know that the majority of parliamentarians in the UK are unelected.
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I would much rather pay many bankers very large bonuses than have to see or hear from this unelected, twice disgraced, paid from the public purse charlatan ever again
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The problem with a lot of Labour MPs is that they seem to have forgotten that the record, about which they so proudly boast, is not as great as they think.
They insist that the Tories will make slash and burn cuts to public services, which are supposedly safer in New Labour's hands and then Ed Balls announces that he can save £2 Billion from wasteful schools with the possibility of 40,000 teaching assistants losing their jobs.
It's also on their watch that we discover the gravy train MP expenses scandal.
Then there's the credit crunch caused by their failure to regulate the banks.
Over the last 10 years under Blair and Brown we have had enough sleaze, scandal, lies and deception to make John Major's administration look like amateurs by comparison.
Listening to Peter Hain being interviewed on TV last night I venture to suggest that he is not living on the same planet as the rest of us.Both he and Mandelson are trying to deceive the public by rewriting history, but I think the public are not as gullible as they think, something he will discover on election day.
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bouncer @ 37
you cannot blame the banks for paying bonuses. It is the way they operate to get the best people in to make money
such a depressing comment - please don't fall for that bunkum - PLEASE tell me you're on a wind up - because if what we've seen was brought about by the "best people" then gee whizz, I'd hate to see what the worst ones would do - god babe
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ah ha about time a real good joke story.
an ideological "chasm" between Labour and the Tories has to be the biggest joke in years, look at labour of today and what you see is the tory party as was under john major.
both have the same disorganised idea of being in charge, and both were split over fundementals.
so the whole concept of either of these parties being different is total tosh.
how many more joke are the tax paying public supposed to endure before we get a parliment that honestly works.
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Imitation is the best form of flattery.
Look how NuLab now tries to portray itself as "moderate" and "sensible"... by copying Toty policy !
They are scheming, spinning and unprincipled. Yuck.
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There may be an undiscovered chasm in the arid ideological deserts where nothing grows and no sensible person goes. But it divides nobody from nobody.
For someone who is neither, telling New Labour from Tory is like telling Serb from Croat. They often detest and sometimes fight one another; but the only way to tell which is which is to ask them.
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Makes me laugh, all the problems we have in the UK - unemployment, rise of the far right, drugs gangs, etc, etc, and we're going after the bankers.
Well I'm convinced, when I'm next attacked on a night out, threatened by local druggies or burgled, I'll sit there thinking, "well at least we showed the bankers."
I only wish we'd had this lot in during WW2, just think, instead of liberating death camps, we could've been giving the Swiss a stern talking to. That's just the kind of leadership we need.
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26. At 3:22pm on 28 Sep 2009, sagamix wrote:
if Labour really do get tough on the bankers, if it's not just hot air ... a big if ... then that could be clear blue water
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But of course they won't will they.
Both Brown and Darling will be seeking employment in the financial sector after May 2010, so they are hardly likely to do anything to upset prospective employers!!
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All the Tories have to do at the next election is put up a large poster of Mandelson with the phrase
Do we really want an UNELECTED prime minister?
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Ideological chasm - that is between Nu-labour, the Tories and old Labour. More like the shifting of tectonic plates.
Mandelson is attempting to regain the Socialist Labour of old, when the Party, the Unions were of one accord. Unfortunatly after 12+years of Blair/Mandelson/Brown style spin, not even many of their supporters believe in them. It is a little late now trying to rebrand themselves with a General Election so close.
There are those die-hard supporters that close their eyes and ears to any type of discussion or document that does not accord with their concepts. No amount of proof will ever change these people. They are on all sides of the political spectrum and brook no dissent. I assume that they form the core supporters of any party but in relatively small numbers, that fortunately, will not affect any outcome.
By the way, I noticed a divergence in the spelling of ideological/idealogical throughout this blog, probably typographical errors, not wishing to nit-pick. I checked my dictionary and the original version by Mr. Robinson is correct.
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This Labour Party, it just sums them up,
Mandelson,Unelected, twice resigned Minister bulling up an unelected Prime Minister after leaving the Europe Union, there has to be a motive here as he is not a "friend" of Brown he wants the Labour Party to win the election so that him and his hoppo Tony Blair can dominate us from their Socialist Europe.
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59
You could always ask Ed Balls, Souter.
He's been there and done it as well.
Do you not get sick of singing the same old boring tune all the damn time?
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It's perfectly true - there really is a vast ideological "chasm" between Labour and the Tories. And thank goodness for that!
Labour believes in a surveillance/nanny state, where neighbours are encouraged to 'shop' anyone discovered baby-sitting without permission from a government department.
Labour believes that parents need to be police-checked before having a rota to drive children to school or to clubs.
Labour believes we should all carry ID cards.
Labour believes it should be a criminal offence to sell your own home without first obtaining a meaningless Home Information Pack.
Labour believes it is competent to collect and store all our personal data.
Labour believes it is a good idea to give powers to local authorities to tap phones and intercept emails, under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA)
Labour believes Scotland should have wide ranging freedom to act independently from Westminster, whilst Scottish MPs can still make new laws for England.
Labour believes they know how to spend our money better than we do, and waste billions on our behalf whilst raising more taxes.
Yes, for once Mandelson is right. There is an ideological difference between Tories and Labour.
But given his dislike for the Tories, I wonder why he said he would be willing to work for them?
Nothing Mandelson says can actually be trusted.
Remember he told us that suggestions of a 'deal' about the Lockerbie bomber were "offensive". But then Jack Straw said Trade and oil had indeed played a part in the decision process, but then later denied it.
The trouble is, they can't keep up with their own spin.
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Since we have had the Lib Dems making a hash of their conference and now a similar mixed messages from Labour. I wonder what the Tories are going to produce.
I'm off to find the odds on GB being PM at the election.
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Labour really are a desperate lot, thrashing about and looking for someone, anyone, to blame but not prepared to accept in even the tiniest proportion that they might be a bit to blame themselves.....
"If only it wasn't for those evil bankers who we couldn't do anything about, we'd all be living in a land of flowing milk and honey" - Is that the best that Labour can come up with as an election slogan? Sagamix, do leap to their defence, it's always amusing.
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Tessa Jowell on her hind legs trying to justify spending what will be well in excess of 15 billion quid on the Olympic stadium, all for three weeks of sport.
So much emphasis on providing sporting facilities for kids as a legacy.
Meanwhile school playing fields continue to be sold off and the health and safety prodnoses are slowly confining sporting activities to tiddleywinks - but only whilst wearing safety glasses and with an ambulance on standby.
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There are but a paper-thin chasm between Labour and Tory who are both after their own self-interests. The real chasm is between the the politicians and the people they are suppose to serve.
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Cunning plan and Blackadder comes to mind. Or is it already back on tv?
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Labour tried to act too much like the Tories and are now paying the price - their traditional supporters won't touch them and their newly found fickle middle class supporters are changing sides.
The middle classes are the plebs of history - put a carrot on a stick and they'll follow you to the ends of the earth. Democracy has given these grotesque mediocrities power to decide this country's fate. If you think the middle classes are going to change this country anything for the better at the next election you are seriously misguided.
The big worry for me is who are the disenfranchised traditional Labour voters going to support? The BNP? I hope they vote Liberal-Democrat if it isn't Labour. I can't see them voting Green or other socialist candidates.
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The Tories didn't complain about John Major being appointed PM by Conservative MPs and the appointment of peers into the Government, so it's a wee bit hypocritical to complain about Brown and Mandelson.
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Is this script an indication of how confusing the speech from Mandy was?
I do think that he missed the point
The labour party has failed to provide a meaningful dialogue, and thus the BNP managed to gain seats at the euro elections.
This is not really a chasm between the Labour Party, and the Tories; it is a chasm between the Labour Party and everyone else, and everyday they add more defences around their island.
It is surely the point that at the next election that there will be an "anyone but Labour" vote, and in those areas where there is traditionally a strong Labour vote, what alternative will there be there? Could we see the BNP win parliamentary seats? Purely because of Labour's failure to engage?
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Mandelson has extended the car scrappage scheme. The car trade are laughing all the way to the bank for now instead of discounting car prices they charge the full whack and the taxpayer is picking up a bill of 2000 pounds a time.
For someone like myself who has given up their car it is a downright disgrace for it is only those who already have the money who can afford these new cars and certainly don't need a discount from the taxpayer.
No-one yet has come up with proper figures to show that sales of new cars have really increased because of this scheme. But that's nothing new.
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I normally post on "great" issues such as education and economy.
However, a headline attracted by attention: "every dog in Britain will be tagged with a microchip". Financial penalties will be incurred on owners who fail to comply.
If reports are correct we also know of a dinnerlady dismissed for whistleblowing (reporting serious bullying to a child's parents when the representatives of the state tried to conceal it), and two female police officers threatened with prosecution for unauthorised childcare provision (looking after each others children, in normal language).
The ideological chasm referred to in Nick's opening post is nothing less than the moral cause of human freedom in the face of state-sponsored bureaucracy. Vote Labour or BNP if you wish State regulation to expand further; vote for any other party if you think otherwise.
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No2 Deimosl
Can you let me know when was the last time a government in the UK did not have a large number of ministers who were members of the House of Lords? All the members in the so-called Upper House are unelected, unaccountable and unrepresentative.Do you think it is time for such an anachronism to be abolished, or would you prefer that only Peter be removed?
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I would like to hear how Lbour justify criminalising baby sitting between friends.
Why victims are deemed to have less rights than criminals.
Why criminal behaviour is no longer punished.
Why someone carrying a knife only receives a caution.
Why 'life' sentences are often less than 10 years.
Why over-filling a wheelie bin carries a harsher penalty than doing criminal damage.
We do we all need to be surveyed 24 hours a day.
We do we need ID cards.
Why do innocent people need to be on a DNA database.
I could go on .... and on... But I won't. You've probably got the picture!
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zydeco @ 70
But of course they won't will they. Both Brown and Darling will be seeking employment in the financial sector after May 2010, so they are hardly likely to do anything to upset prospective employers
that IS a good point - not made often enough
distant @ 75
neighbours are encouraged to 'shop' anyone discovered baby sitting without permission
why do you say that? ... I didn't take that from the story ... the word in bold, I mean
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Does anybody else think that PM was a bit, well, snakelike and scary? He's like some kind of bizarre hypnotist - a demonic Derron Brown.
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zydeco @ 86
you've probably got the picture!
mmm, we've got the picture alright, mister Z ... but it might not be the picture you have in mind
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Poster 75 summed it all up nicely, there's not much more I could add other than to suggest a couple of nice election posters to emphasise what we are up against:
Do you really want the unelected, twice disgraced 'Ponce of Darkness' back at our expense? Has he ever earned any money away from the public trough?
The Brown Depression. Need I say more.
Election now!!
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The Labour frontbench have been useless for 2 years, but now at last Labour is taking on the smug Tories. It is probably too late but you never know. Multi-millionaires David Cameron and George Osborne stand for nothing other than craving power with a vague anti-public sector policy. The Tories refusal to provide any worthwhile polices will surely be unable to sustain an election campaign nor should it in a democracy.
Mandelson needs to take the election campaign now by the scruff of the neck and organise comments attacking the Tories every day and setting out some novel ideas for post election Labour, he is very able and the one the Tories fear.
Its now or never for you Labour MP`s, so for goodness sake show some fight, determination and spirit. Most of you look like you have just left a funeral, or an evening listening to Vince Cable & Nick Clegg on their well thought out plans for a Mansion Tax. There are millions of us who will be hit hard under the Tories so wake up.
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# 8 quietoldinthetooth
encourages Scottish Barron's to get out of jail
Are you alluding to Baroness Scotland? If so, it may suprise you to learn that Baroness Scotland is her name; not her nationality.
Patricia Scotland, Baroness Scotland of Asthal
If not, what are you alluding to?
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Lord Mandelson, "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich". Hmm. Could that be because he is one of those “people”?
Many Labour posters are regaling us with the dire prospects for all living things should the Conservatives get elected in 2010. This is only decided by history, what has gone before.
The corollary of that is that should Labour be re-elected, the IMF will have to be called in to bail us out and will tell us what cuts in Public Spending have to be made. The Unions won’t like it and we will have crippling strikes. It happened before and will therefore, happen again.
I blame Caesar. If he hadn’t left we would all be better off.
I still do not know for whom I will vote in the GE...only it will not be the present lot. I’m afraid I can no longer feel able to believe anything they tell me.
Slainte Mhath
M
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A certain popular French car was on sale prior to the scrappage scheme for £10775 on the road.
It now sells at £11995 after the scrappage discount.
Who's conning who here?
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An unelected man shouting and ranting at his audience and waving his arms about a lot? He reminded me of someone, and then the penny dropped. He does not have a small square black moustache on his upper lip.
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No74 Fubar,
There will be, throughout the country, a deep sense of sorrow that you are leaving the country because of the possibility of a Cameron led government.
However, we have found out today that you think the allocation of the nation's resources, and having ex members of thuggish organisations becoming Her Majesty's leading ministers are boring subjects.If you continue to spew out such nonsense in Utopia you will probably get locked up.
On a more serious note I do hope that you have a greater degree of success than Sir Thomas, have you any plans for bringing your departure date forward?
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85#
"...All the members in the so-called Upper House are unelected, unaccountable and unrepresentative.Do you think it is time for such an anachronism to be abolished, or would you prefer that only Peter be removed?"
Wasnt that what Labour pledged to do when elected in 97? And they did, didnt they? They chucked out all the (mainly) Tory hereditaries (which I agree were anachronistic) and then... replaced them with their own unelected, unaccountable, unreprasentative hereditaries who proved to be every bit as crooked, every bit as much on the take, every bit as useless as the Tories they replaced!
Mandy's as a twice fired, dodgy mortgage dealing, EU-backhanding snake oil salesman, is just the tip of the iceberg. Then theres Baroness Shriti The Shriek, Baroness Uddin (less said, eh Souter?), Baroness Scotland (even less said, eh Souter?) the four including the old union barons who sold amendments for money... and they've been joined by the only HoC speaker to be removed from his position for 300 years, a man who is on record as saying "I didnt come into politics not to get what was due to me".
Twelve years, Labour have had to introduce meaningful, reprasentative reform to the House Of Lords. All they've done is stuffed it full of their own troughing cronies and donators.
But dont you worrying your head about all that, Souter.
You keep banging your class warfare drum and blowing that dogwhistle, I'm sure the remaining 26% in Liverpool and Tyne & Wear and Islington will keep on listening and barking to your tune.
It just bores me rigid, I'm afraid.
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#91 not as hard as I have been treated for the last 12 years. £25,000+ 25+ court cases.
My crime being a loving caring father. My children's crime a father that they wanted to love.
On who's watch did this happen then and whom campainged against this threat to society and were much vilified by the labour supporting press.
scores of peod's are let out of jail to reoffend , yet 11m+ are going to have to undergo survelance to prove that they can be with children.
60+ visits by police and social workers and nobody could see , hear or understand what bady P went through. The level of incompetance is rampant.
There are millions of children extended familes and fathers that have been punished for one reason only that they were guilty of love.
please comment along with sagamix whom always refused to discuss this and this can only be blamed on the FUBAR_liebour and SNAFU_liebour for the last 12 years.
Just think of the billions of £'s of tax payers monies that have been wasted in this air to achieve the social engineering policy of having single parent (mothers only) familes on benifits that can then be controlled from the centre as they are then in financial hock to thier paymaster.
this either happend by design or accident but given the resitance to understand the problem and in constant denial that there is a problem and the harness with which protestor have been treated can only lead to one answer DESIGN ie policy made by them for the last 12 years
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At 4:57pm on 28 Sep 2009, putney1647 wrote:
How delicious to see the persistence of the BBC's cynical contempt for a Labour Government and its ministers. I expect such contempt from the Daily Mail. I do not like it from a citizen funded service. Perhaps the next government will scrap the BBC for failing to provide fair and decent coverage of politics.
Congratulations Putney1647. You are the only person in the entire universe ever to accuse the BBC of RIGHT wing bias! All NORMAL people know that the BBC is inherently a leftie organisation, indeed, we love them for it, always showing their socialist petticoats. What I think you mean is that your doomed and totally failed government is failing to elicit any support at all, even from those who traditionally fall over backwards for them (Ask Nick Robinson!)
Incidentally, anyone and I mean anyone, who shows contempt for this bunch of freeloading failures gets my vote.
So, now you will brand me as a Tory? Wrong again. Quite frankly, I don't know where the country goes after this lot,I can't see a coherent leader out there, but I do know that more of the same would be a terrible, disastrous choice.
And if the BBC actually DOES do its job, fairly, and without bias, then the likes of me will ensure that NO government takes away its voice. If however, it becomes the puppy of any political party, then it deserves to go. The BBC aint perfect, not by any means, but its a damn sight better than what you propose.
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91#
"Multi-millionaires David Cameron and George Osborne stand for nothing other than craving power"
mmmm..... But they're nothing like "Multi millionaire Shaun Woodward" or "Multi millionaire Geoffrey Robinson" or "Multi millionaire Tony Blair" or "Multi millionaire Property Baron Geoff Hoon" eh?
God, you NL trolls dont half talk some guff. Hasnt Charlie Whelan let you lot go home yet? Or havent you got homes to go to?
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#94 found that USA manufactuer that produced the car in spain where going exactly the same. As I looked at the same car before and after as had to wait for the 10 years to apply , they just changed the prices therefore the UK PLC was subsiding the spainish car industry , just brilliant only from SNAFU_liebour
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91. At 6:26pm on 28 Sep 2009, allafternoon wrote:
The Labour frontbench have been useless for 2 years, but now at last Labour is taking on the smug Tories. It is probably too late but you never know. Multi-millionaires David Cameron and George Osborne stand for nothing other than craving power with a vague anti-public sector policy. The Tories refusal to provide any worthwhile polices will surely be unable to sustain an election campaign nor should it in a democracy.
Mandelson needs to take the election campaign now by the scruff of the neck and organise comments attacking the Tories every day and setting out some novel ideas for post election Labour, he is very able and the one the Tories fear.
Its now or never for you Labour MP`s, so for goodness sake show some fight, determination and spirit. Most of you look like you have just left a funeral, or an evening listening to Vince Cable & Nick Clegg on their well thought out plans for a Mansion Tax. There are millions of us who will be hit hard under the Tories so wake up.
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I would like to think you have posted this as a wind up but suspect you are actually serious.
The fact that there are millionaires in the Tory party is irrelevant. Do some research on the Labour members - you may be surprised.
Asking Mandelson to make daily criticisms of the Tories is pointless. He has too murky a past to be in any position to criticise others.
If anyone should fear him it should be Labour party supporters. He represents everything that is wrong with the present incumbents in terms of sleaze and truth denial. In fact he was one of the reasons I gave up my support for Labour some years ago.
The reason Labour MPs look like they are at a funeral is because they have a virtual corpse of a party leader but no-one has the will to bury it.
By saying that millions of us will be hit hard under the Tories, I assume that you aren't aware millions of us are already suffering.
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#95 and the type of country that they are turning it into is very very reminisant of how he managed to build his power base too. all the spying on each other etc
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Even the master of politics in this land, namely Peter Mandelson, cannot pull New Labour out of this situation, even by obliquely suggesting that Labour are now 'old' Labour again to some extent i.e. an idelogical chasm between them and the Tories.
Probably the cardinal sin under ten years of a Labour Government, and to their eternal shame, is an astounding decrease in social mobility.
For that alone they should be cast into the political wilderness.
Looking forward, we can surmise that by default, the Tories will fill the boots at Westminster and the polls already show that the Scots are not at all enamoured with that prospect.
All of which means that the Scots might just vote for full independence in November 2010, which changes the political game completely.
Not that you'd even have an inkling of that earth-shaking political prospect from the very blinkered Westminster village and its attendent 'jackals', namely the London-centric media.
Still, far sighted Peter Mandelson can see it coming, hence his willingness to work for 'the country'.
Which I presume, in private, means England.
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#91 I tried to answer your point about being hard hit at @98
but the blog police do not like me metioning the family courts to sho wthat people have be hard hit under Labour as this does not happen apparently.
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Nick
The only chasm is the deep one that NuLabour are stuck in. And Duff just keeps digging.
Well Post RE all we need to do is shovel the earth over the burnt out carcass known as NuLabour.
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91. At 6:26pm on 28 Sep 2009, allafternoon
You forgot to say multi millionaire Mandelson. Accurate and a nice bit of alliteration as well.
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91. At 6:26pm on 28 Sep 2009, allafternoon wrote:
..Mandelson needs to take the election campaign now by the scruff of the neck and organise comments attacking the Tories every day and setting out some novel ideas for post election Labour, he is very able and the one the Tories fear....
===
I don't think the Tories fear Mandelson, after all, he is going to be working for them after the election!
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Mandelson's cabaret act at the conference today was priceless. Is this known as the "End of the Peer" ?
His comment in so many words of "if he could make a come back then so can the party " overlooks the fact that his comebacks have been totally voter free in their manner, and democratically he is representing no one. But in ignoring the electorate, he is at least consistent with most of the party policies.
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96#
No, as per usual, the Rt Hon Souter is putting words into my mouth again.
I didnt say they were boring subjects.
I said that the constant referral to their education, to their background, when Labour also have a significant amount of public school and Oxbridge educated members of parliament and ministers, who were also part of university drinking clubs, is getting boring. You have ministers who are openly millionaires, who openly advocate the destruction of private education, who are not only privately educated themselves, but are also doing the same for their own kids whilst denying the choice to those who they govern over!!! Its blatant two faced hypocrisy. How do you square that circle "Its alright for me, but not for you lot" More faces than the town hall clock!
You didnt answer that, you didnt defend it, because you cannot. How can you defend lies, cheating, hypocrisy? And call for more of it because someone who was born into money might just get elected? Someone who maybe had more money than you, more education than you, more life chances than you...? What is the root of your obsession with class?
You're chucking stones whilst living in a big glass house and it makes you look as if you have an almighty chip on your shoulder.
I did say that I didnt care what policies the next incumbents had, because I'm emigrating. And that is true.
Thanks to the hash that NL have made of work permits for the subcontinent, IT Consultancy jobs are getting harder to come by in the UK. So, to keep the family in the lifestyle, etc, plus maintain constant employment and to stop Gordon redistributing 60% of my income to a sink estate, I've elected to go abroad instead.
Can I bring it forward? Maybe.
Sout, I dont care who gets in. Genuinely, I dont. All I know is that if Labour are going to keep on playing the class warfare card, then they will get obliterated in everywhere but Tyne and Wear. Crewe and Nantwich (it was only last year, or have they decided to airbrush that out as well?), Labour were defending a majority of 21,000 when Gwyn Dunwoody died... apart from the fact that Gordon had cut the 10p tax band shortly before, NL ran on the class warfare ticket (even though Dunwoody's daughter has an entry in Burke's Peerage) and lost to a 17% swing to the conservatives. In one of their safest seats.
Hasnt it penetrated the walls yet that the class warfare ticket doesnt work anymore?
By all means, destroy them on policy, destroy them on what they will do, but resorting to class, constantly is just pathetic. Mind you, at least NL will try and argue with the tories....
...With the BNP, they just run away and leave any "intelligent debate" to the students, unions and Socialist Worker rent-a-mob crowd.
I probably would be locked up if I stayed in UK. I mean, NL have turned locking up innocent people into an artform, havent they? Then releasing them without charge.... And Britain is hardly turning into Utopia. More like the land in V for Vendetta.
Sorry, dunno who you mean by Sir Thomas.
And this'll all probably get moderated as well.
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96 Bravesouter said:
"However, we have found out today that you think the allocation of the nation's resources, and having ex members of thuggish organisations becoming Her Majesty's leading ministers are boring subjects."
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You would be referring to Ed Balls, I take it? Only a fool would ignore the fact that Mr Balls was a member of a thuggish all-male sexist drinking club at Oxford, and more than happy to don a Nazi uniform at parties.
"Like many in the Labour Party, Ed Balls has made great play of the fact David Cameron and Boris Johnson were members of the notorious Bullingdon Club while at Oxford. However, it now transpires that the Cabinet minister was something of a wild man himself when he was at Keble College in the mid-1980s. As a member of The Steamers, an all-male drinking club - so called because they enjoyed 'steaming in' to chat up girls - he once donned a World War Two German officer’s uniform at a fancy dress party.
Photographic evidence of this 'hearty’ behaviour emerged in the Mail on Sunday. The 41-year-old Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families was seen in his Third Reich rig cavorting around a fellow student who was wearing plastic buttocks and breasts.
Recalling those heady times, a female contemporary of Balls said: "They [The Steamers] used to rate women on their physical appearance. It was immature nonsense, and some of the women in college found it ridiculous. I thought it was stupid rather than malicious. But it was sexist, and showed a lack of respect for equality and diversity."
What do you think Harriet would make of that?
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What a con artist Mandy is. His scrappage scheme was the biggest con of all. The retailers just put their prices up by over a grand so they immediately go their bit of the bargain covered straightaway. Most of the cars sold are foreign models so what HM Government has effectively done is to send a shed load of tax payers money abroad. Even the BBC were conned into what has gone on. Tonight BBC News they were hailing the scheme as a success at a UK Hyundai dealership who were selling cars like hot cakes. Let me think, which country makes Hyundai cars? Don`t think any British car workers jobs were saved there. Mr Hyundai must think we are completely nuts. Cars which have been standing around for ages are sold at top prices and the only losers are the tax payers who will have to add the bill to their everygrowing mountain of debt. Heyho, more cut backs even higher taxes and customers taking no credit which they will have difficulty paying back next year when we go into recession Mk2. doesn`t anyone ever learn?
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#93
History? You pick bits you like and ignore the bits you don't.
Ordinary working people have seen their wages drop in real terms since 1979 and took out loans to supplement their lower income. Social mobility has actually decreased since 1979. The Thatcherite consensus has shown itself to be anti-Meritocratic (contary to its claims stating otherwise); anti-industry; anti-progressive (both socially and in tax); and pro-Carbon (any economic growth will see an increase in the price of oil thus reversing any gains made).
We are Cream Crackered!
History tells us that the Tories are going suppress working families wages even further while the banks cut off access to credit. Moreover, the Tories will introduce tax cuts for the well off in a climate of an increasing social security budget. UK plc's credit rating is going to drop like a stone. Its the Tories who are going to bankrupt this country and have to go to the IMF like a beggar/thief.
The British public do not really trust the Tories on the economy. Surreal fact I know, but there it is.
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Nick said, “The party's pitch is that it - a party of the centre left - can be trusted to tackle bankers' bonuses and to cut spending in a way that a free-market Tory party simply cannot”.
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That will be the same Labour party that has been sucking up to the same bankers etc for the last 12 years then Nick.
Yep, It’s a full year now since the collapse & NuLabour are still scraping their knuckles along the ground & only coming up with token gesture reforms.
Seem to recall that certain Labour ministers accepted that banking bonuses were all par of the course
The quote from Mandy about being intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich sounds so like Rik Mayall’s character Alan B’Stard in the 80’s TV show, The New Statesman.
Perhaps Rik can bring his character back as the rising star of the left this time.
Come on Rik, you know the time is right.
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#104 JohnConstable
I would suggest that to a certain extent it really doesn't matter either way whether NuLab or the Tories get elected to Westminster, the end result is the same, namely that the independence referendum will stll go ahead. I would agree that given past history and reputation of the Tories in Scotland that there may be a perception of greater support for an end to the union, however I suspect that those truly in favour of maintaining the union will not be affected wither way by who is in charge at Westminster. It may however sway floating voters, particularly with the little hints given by Cameron so far on how he would deal with an SNP government at Holyrood.
Thought you might find this Telegraph interesting reading, originally posted by Cynicalhighlander on BT's thread:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/scotland/6240671/North-Sea-oil-gave-Scotland-massive-budget-surplus-say-Government-records.html
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#18. rockRobin7.
A very accurate assessment of this present goverment, if only they they had the guts to call an election rather than continue with their scorched earth policy.
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@96 braveSouter
Change the record, no-one cares about the thuggish organisations you endlessly whine about. What most people care about is the bunch of lying, incompetent troughers currently in government.
What does it take for you lefty's to understand?
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Out of 114 comments I can only see 1 which supports Labour - Can Labour supporters bother to comment or are there just no Labour supporters.
If they get results like this in the Election they are done for - for the next 20 years.
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I love Mandelson's "If I can change, we can change" quote. He said it so straight-faced too. Of course he hasn't changed a bit. There has never been a satisfactory explanation of certain dodgy dealings in the past and more recent visits to Russian yachts raise many questions. Notice also he didn't mention anything about his plan to install one T Blair as EU President.
No, he hasn't changed a bit!!
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Mandelson says "If I can come back, we can".
As if somehow, the people - any people - in the UK VOTED him back into a position of enormous power.
Not so, he was dragged out of Brussels to help prop up Brown.
And, or course, we pay for his "transition" from being an EU Commissioner (i.e. appointed civil servant - though the swagger and posturing would never seep through from any of them!).
I forget. Do ex-Commissioners get 2 or 3 years worth of tax-payer support to work their way back into the real world?
And is there no "off-set", so if they pick up cushy, well-paid numbers back in a local parliament, do WE get a rebate and pay less? Doubt it.
New Labour have been the bankers' best friends, right up to the point when they couldn't deliver the tax-take.
Any sign that the Board of RBS are being investigated yet, for taking a doubtful prospectus to market, when they collected 12BIL from a rights issue, when at least some of them had to know their company was entering a whirlpool? Didn't they know? Didn't a single member of the board of a massive bank have any idea that any money they collected would simply disappear down the pit?
And didn't anybody in the FSA have a tiny idea that - even though it was a long way from London - RBS may have had a few probs. Or were they just too frightened to get to Northern Rock, RBS, HBoScotland, because they sat in fragile Labour territory?
If Mandy is the best that Labour can offer, they are dead in the water.
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113#
"History? You pick bits you like and ignore the bits you don't."
No kidding!
Like the bits that:
-Gordon supported the ERM as much as Cameron in the 1990's.
-Hatties history of wimmin in politics missing out not just Thatch, but Betty Boothroyd as well(!)
-How Macavity was never there. How he never said he'd abolished boom and bust.
"Ordinary working people have seen their wages drop in real terms since 1979 and took out loans to supplement their lower income."
What, til now? 12 years into a Labour government? Pull the other one. Utter, utter rubbish. In fact, its a lie.
"Social mobility has actually decreased since 1979."
And just what state was it in pre-1979, do tell???
"The Thatcherite consensus has shown itself to be anti-Meritocratic (contary to its claims stating otherwise); anti-industry; anti-progressive (both socially and in tax); and pro-Carbon (any economic growth will see an increase in the price of oil thus reversing any gains made). "
And of course in over a decade, Tony and Gordon made great strides didnt they, in raising social mobility? I think you already know the answer to that dont you, you just dont want to speak it. Because you know its true. Its got as bad, if not worse. They achieved nothing.
"We are Cream Crackered!"
Got that right.
"History tells us that the Tories are going suppress working families wages even further while the banks cut off access to credit."
Where does this history reside then? The New Labour Airbrushed history??
"Moreover, the Tories will introduce tax cuts for the well off in a climate of an increasing social security budget."
And, as they're "do nothing tories" who have no policies, can you tell me where you have seen this, where it is on record that the conservatives will do this? No. You cant, because you just made it up.
"UK plc's credit rating is going to drop like a stone."
Yep, one of Gordon The Great's legacies. Real proud of that, I bet.
"Its the Tories who are going to bankrupt this country and have to go to the IMF like a beggar/thief."
Probably. Because Labour wont will they? Part of a scorched earth policy is that you destroy everything while you're on the way out so that your successor has all the donkey work to do putting it right again.
You're either under orders from Mr Whelan or you're too young to remember the 1970's.
"The British public do not really trust the Tories on the economy. Surreal fact I know, but there it is."
Thats as maybe. If they truly would rather trust the current megalomaniac and Darling then they deserve everything they get.
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Yes Nic this is interesting, but probably irrelevant for two reasons,
1. After 12 years of power, there are enough people to say, it's time for them (Labour) to go, for what ever reason.
2. On the point of reigning back the bankers, well they have had ample opportunity to do that over the years, and to restrict borrowing into the over-heated housing sector, and they have done neither. With the Tories one could also argue, that it 'takes a crook to know a crook' and they might just be more adept at restricting bankers bonuses. Or pigs might fly, I suspect that they will argue that the bankers have to be paid the going rate etc etc etc.
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"intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich"
At whose expense?
Neither those nor protected politicians nor their families have to worry about being abused by gangs into committing suicide.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/8279106.stm
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dceilar 113
"History? You pick bits you like and ignore the bits you don't."
Whereas, you just make it up. For example
"Ordinary working people have seen their wages drop in real terms since 1979..." is factually incorrect. Even the poorest tenth of the population, who in fact are generally not working people at all, have seen their incomes rise relative to price inflation over the period since 1979, in other words, in terms of purchasing power, they have become richer - precisely opposite to what you wrote.
What has happened is that incomes of middle income and high income people have risen faster than those of low and very low income people. But I only add that for completeness: the main point is that what you wrote is untrue.
Then you wrote
"History tells us that the Tories are going suppress working families wages even further" No it doesn't - working families incomes rose throughout the Thatcher/Major government.
If you can't be bothered to be factually correct, and instead simply present, as if they were facts, things that you wish were true, how can we possibly be expected to respect the arguments you make?
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Ideological Chasm??? Is he trying to insult our intelligence...?
Labour, under Blair, fully supported the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. Somebody tell me; what words of opposition did David Cameron voice to either one? Anybody...? (*listens; sounds of crickets chirping*)
Labour, under Brown, rushed into hand over so much of our money to incompetent failures who'd run their banks into the ground, that most people can't even properly comprehend the amounts involved. Anybody remember what the Tories position was on the bail-out? (*listens; I can hear those crickets again*)
The Conservatives, in their last term of office, sold off pretty much everything that wasn't nailed down to private interests, but without any guarentees of service in return; this led to instances like Railtack where the taxpayer was ploughing billions of pounds into a failing company and the shareholders were still reaping dividends. They called this "Privatisation". Labour? Did exactly the same thing; they just called it "Public/Private Partnerships".
After 18 years of Conservative government, everybody thought things would be very different when Labour won in 1997. What changed? Nothing. Not a damn thing. Things kept on working the same way they'd always worked. (It still brings a smile to my face now, every time I meet some idiot on the street who actually thinks the same thing now; that if the Tories win, things are going to change radically. They aren't).
Ideological Chasm? There's barely so much as an ideological *pot-hole* between the two parties.
So put a sock in it, Mandy. Nobody's believing your nonsense.
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IDL @ 117
no-one cares about the thuggish organisations you endlessly whine about
oh really? ... and what makes you say that? ... I tend to care about "thuggish" organisations ... don't particularly support them as a general rule ... can't be just me, surely
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Addendum to myself, post #125
"So put a sock in it, Mandy. Nobody's believing your nonsense".
Ok, I'll correct myself, here. Looking back over some of the previous entries - as well as some of the other comments on the political blogs - it appears that a few people actualy ARE believing his nonsense. Some people really DO seem to think that Labour are significantly different to the Conservatives.
Trouble is, they almost all seem to be *Conservative* supporters, nor Labour. I'm not entirely sure that's the outcome Mandy was envisioning when he made his comments. But, there you have it.
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@126 Saga
As a general rule looking through this board it is just you!! You are normally a lone voice, admirable though your loyalty may be it is incredibly misplaced.
I'm just so bored of labour supporters sniping at the tories without being able to set forth any credible reasons to vote for labour (as there aren't any!!)
I'm even less tolerant this week as I've got to put up with them overrunning my home town with their pointless conference, I have nightmares about what I'd do if I came face to face with Mandelson...!
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My goodness Mandy has been on full throttle this week and its only Monday. The feature in the Sunday Times magazine with a very scary picture of the man himself. The speech today was well presented and crafted. He knew that anything light and fluffy with a few jokes would stand out a mile from the rest of the dull atempts by the others.
The very scary thing is that not one of the spineless cabinet members is willing to stand in his way. Mandy is more like the evil character in an old bond movie who want to take over the world.
The guy is very dangerous. Un-elected and un-electable.
Anyway fair play to Andrew Marr. Think he hit on a raw nerve with 'that question'. Master stroke. Just waiting for the leaks from somewhere to expose the truth. Shame really as it could have ended far more easily.
I really think that labour have a real chance to win if they ditch Gordon this week. Thankfully it wont happen. Or could it?
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Bullingdon Club
Sorry for being tedious, and spoiling the fun of the lefties on here who seem, as ever these days, to be grasping at straws, but this really should be essential reading before discussion of the Bullingdon Club completely separates from reality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullingdon_Club
Clearly the Bullingdon Club isn't exactly the sort of place to meet the Archbishop of Canterbury, but I do note that BC members pay, immediately and in cash, for the mess they leave behind them.
What I would like to know is where the alegation of "thuggishness" came from? Specific references please, or find a new word. (I think the "likely suspects" may be exploiting the aliteration of "Bullingdon" and "bully" to try to construct an image - just propaganda, in other words.)
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No wonder half the hall was empty, most of the delegates were out looking for the missing Tongan passport
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K @ 127
nice point obliquely made, big fan of that sort of thing - don't see enough of it ... class
IDL @ 128
without being able to set forth any credible reasons to vote for Labour ... as there aren't any !!
that's a very odd thing to say, don't you think? - what if a person works in the public sector and they judge ... on balance, I mean, since they can't know for sure ... but on the balance of probability that the Cs are likely to cut deeper and quicker than Lab? - is that not a credible reason for that person to vote Labour? - if not, why not?
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@ jrperry, post #130;
"What I would like to know is where the alegation of "thuggishness" came from?"
Erm... if you come round to my place and wilfully smash it up, you're a thug. No, I don't give two hoots how much you pay in damages, or where you went to school - you're still a thug.
Is it really THAT hard to understand...?
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Here we have an unelected, self promoting, conniving spin doctor par excellence whose only present task is to prop up Gordon Brown and then, if Labour win the next election, get rid of him asap and replace him by, preferably, himself! He would rival Lord Voldemort in his unholy machinations in the corridors of power and, as far as he is concerned, the more power the better! His greed and lust for power knows no bounds and he will not be satisfied until he has the "top job" - let's face it, he's nearly there now!
Those who can see through Mandelson probably trust him just about as far as they can spit (or throw a knife) and I am willing to bet that most of the British Electorate find him, as Billy Connelly so eloquently put it, as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit! The sooner the Dark Lord gets kicked out for the third time, and for good, the better.
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jrp @ 130
I do note that BC members pay, immediately and in cash, for the MESS they leave behind them
oh that's alright then!
(more4 - 7th Oct - 9pm - check it out)
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I am heartily fed up and tired with hearing and seeing Mandelson. He is not entitled to be where he is and he is not entitled to be beamed into our sitting rooms.
He is weird. So weird I don't even know what species of life he actually is.
Is he human or is he dancer?
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113. dceilar wrote:
Ordinary working people have seen their wages drop in real terms since 1979 and took out loans to supplement their lower income. Social mobility has actually decreased since 1979. The Thatcherite consensus has shown itself to be anti-Meritocratic (contary to its claims stating otherwise); anti-industry; anti-progressive (both socially and in tax); and pro-Carbon (any economic growth will see an increase in the price of oil thus reversing any gains made).
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Yep, I’m inclined to agree with this since I know so many people, including myself, who had to borrow to keep the family going becuse they now earn far less than they did 10 years ago.
But wait, who has been in power for the last 12 years & raised indirect taxes that affect the very people you mention the most?
Eg: What’s the point of working families tax credits if you give it in one hand & take with the other?
Let’s not forget about the removal of the 10 per cent band that helped (albeit only slightly) the poorer in society.
Don’t talk to me about industry mate; we have lost most of the factories around our way under a Labour watch. Seem to remember the former Vicar of the parish telling us it was all necessary & part of globalisation.
No special favours given to us when we where turfed out of work; Union members or not.
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History tells us that the Tories are going suppress working families wages even further while the banks cut off access to credit. Moreover, the Tories will introduce tax cuts for the well off in a climate of an increasing social security budget. UK plc's credit rating is going to drop like a stone. Its the Tories who are going to bankrupt this country and have to go to the IMF like a beggar/thief.
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In the current climate, I don’t think the Tories would be so foolish as to raise taxes too much, but I’m afraid this will have to happen anyway regardless of who gets in to Government next time.
For what it's worth, they plan to keep the new 50 per cent band in place - at least for a while.
Banks are already beginning to restrict credit & about time as well.
If they had restricted their greed a little before, perhaps we would not be in the mess we are now.
I think you need to brush up on your political history a little. A good place to start would be the Wilson years where we had to go cap in hand to the IMF who bailed us out. Seem to recall a lot of American money being used to bail out GB PLC at the time as well.
Can’t keep on blaming Thatcher Dear Chap – It’s so 1980’s.
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@132 saga
Yes, I've said often enough that Labour have created a client state of bureaucrats and malingerers. I meant credible policy based reasons rather than purely selfish reasons on an individual level.
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I understand that delegates must appear united in front of the TV cameras (look what happened to the 80 years old one who disagreed!) but to give the Snake a standing ovation for using himself as an example of come back is to say the least shocking. One would have thought that he is a liability and a disgrace for any party but NewLab is so desperate for leadership that treats him as a hero! What a farce!
Nick, have you already written something on tomorrow's triumphant performance of Superman? I heard you hinting on a few issues that he will cover tomorrow. Is it a guess or a whisper?
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Mandelson, unlike Brown, is not self-delusional. He knows very well when he is lying.
Today he was rallying the troops with a speech full of rhetorical flourishes and brave words, yet knowing very well that once they 'go over the top' come a general election, Labour will be mowed down.
His cynicism and ability to dissemble are truly awe-inspiring.
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133 Khrystalar
135 sagamix
Quite right too. However, and I have direct knowledge, as it happens, I understand that the Bullingdon Club has consistently, for about the last thirty years, given due warning that it was them who were coming and given a good opportunity for them to be refused entry. So whatever "cosmetic rearrangement" of the premises they caused has really to be said to be mutually consensual, as well as paid for. Really not the same as a bunch of thugs tearing up your lounge - not the same thing at all.
I have had the pleasure of eating in a restaurant near Oxford, where the owner was so proud of having hosted the BC that he even has the event recorded on his advertising. He also likes to show off the private room where it all happened, which is all very nicely redecorated - at no cost to him, of course.
I'm not going to spend the whole evening defending the Bullingdon Club, but it does seem as if the worst of the stories have quite an element of opportunistic creativity added to them.
And, saga, do you really have high hopes of More4's little show being a fully correct piece of factual reference? Or do I have to throw "I'm alright Jack" back at you?
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No110 Fubar,
It may come as a surprise to you but I am always looking to employ additional people with well developed IT skills.
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I wonder how long Gordon's standing ovation is scheduled to last tomorrow?
I'm guessing at around 8 minutes, with Sara joining him on stage at about the 2 minute mark.
Scary thing is it would happen if he stood there and read the 1938 edition of Bradshaws railway timetable!!
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well now that the Robinson Tory followers have had their say lets get a bit of reality back..did anyone who wrote in here live through the Thatcher debacle well if you didn't here goes ...Education totally underfunded to the extent that no new schools built not enough teachers or helpers and no school repairs but plenty of tacit support for private education ..do you want to go back to that ..well I do not....Healthcare ..totally underfunded..hospitals without enough staff hospital buildings not maintained or cleaned and no new hospitals. ..and of course total support for private medicine...do we want to go back there ..well I don't....Local authorities run down to a terrible state with lack of funding ..do we want that again..well I don't...and I tell you any Cameron led government will go back there ..They are just dying to keep education in its place..ie private..they are just dying to keep the nhs in its place ie increase private and they just cannot wait to curtail the local authorities...just wait and see ..that is if you are all stupid enough to vote the Tories into power
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142#
:-) Good for you Sout, theres plenty of "resting" contractors out there. What with the ICT visa scheme being the mess that it is, allowing the major UK outsourcers to subcontract to the likes of Tata and Mahindra and bring in programmers for £35 PER DAY and get away with it, so long as they give them some form of allowances for accomodation (ie renting a house for 450-500PM and sticking 6-8 subcontractors personnel in it)
Donal Macintyre did a peice on it on Radio 5 last night. Dunno if you can get a podcast of it or not.
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144. At 9:32pm on 28 Sep 2009, oldsitkaspruce wrote:
well now that the Robinson Tory followers have had their say lets get a bit of reality back..did anyone who wrote in here live through the Thatcher debacle......
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Yes I did as a matter of fact. I remember it well. My wife and I bought our first house - under the 'Right to buy' scheme. The increased business my employer was doing got me pay rises that allowed us to buy our first new car and, most important, 3 of my 4 children had a choice of which Grammar school they attended.
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@ jrperry, post #141
"So whatever "cosmetic rearrangement" of the premises they caused has really to be said to be mutually consensual, as well as paid for."
Hmm... no, I'm sorry; I really can't agree. If they'd consistently, for the last 30 years, said "Hi, we're the Bullingdon Club and we'd like to come to dinner at your restaurant and by the way, we're going to smash the place up while we're there", THEN the affair could be called "mutually consensual". Otherwise, not really. You can't "consent" to something which is merely implied by rumour and reputation. Apart from anything else, what if the owner doens't know what the Bullingdon Club *is*.
Also, I should point out that the second-listed source in the Wikipedia article you provided;
http://www.oxfordstudent.com/ht2006wk0/Features/smashing_job_chaps:_exclusive_inside_look_at_bullingdon_club
details an evening as recently as 2005 when all members of the club were arrested after the owner was so shocked at their behaviour and the damaged caused, that he immediately called the police.
Begging your pardon; but that doesn't exactly sound like a "consensual arrangement", by any definition with which I'm familiar.
No, I don't expect you to defend the actions of the Bullingdon Club all night; it's not their actions that I'm questioning, here (although I find them as deplorable as I would any other wilful act of vandalism).
What I'm challenging is what I perceive to be your underlying attitude - my apologies if I'm misrepresenting you here, just my interpretation of what you've said so far - which seems to be that as long as you have plenty of money, it's ok to act in a way which would otherwise be considered outrageous, and possibly criminal, behaviour.
Like I said; if you go out with the specific intention of causing damage, you're a thug. It doesn't matter if you're a Chelsea Chav or an Eton Toff. It's the ACTIONS which determine the worth (or lack thereof) of a person. Not their bank balance. (Or lack thereof).
It was that which you claimed to 'not understand'. For the life of me, I can't fathom why.
Thanks for your response, anyway, my friend.
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#144 Yes I do...and you obviously don't have any children or grand children, who will end up paying for this mess.
The gap bweween the richest and poorest in society has massively increased under New Labour...FACT!
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Once again Nick your blog seeks to shed darkness where there is light. Why didn't use use the entire Mandelson quote rather than just post a link to it, for those of you who can't be bothered to click on the link Mandelson actually said "we are intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich as long as they pay their taxes" Therefore the conclusion is that mandelson is right to state that there is a chasm of ideology, however, your blog would seem to want to undermine this view....strange.
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144#
olddeadwood:
Curiously enough, it looks like thats not the only parallel, eh??
Like the second time in a generation where the outgoing Labour government have left the country at the point where the IMF have to bail them out having completely lost control of the nations finances.
But dont let that you stop you peddling your version of history. Considering how little Labour has made a difference in education, save for the universally acknowledged dumbing down of standards, hell, who knows, maybe some of the kids might believe you too. Save nothing for the idiots who'd vote for a chimp wearing a red rosette.
If they are truly truly stupid enough to vote for Labour which has already got 25% of them consigned to a life on the scrapheap before they've even left school, then they deserve everything they get.
Remind me.... Labour's Year Zero was in 1979 wasnt it?
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144 oldsitkaspruce
You have tried those tired old lines before. I have dissected them before and shown you that they are fiction, yet here you are, back again, peddling the same spiel.
Yup, I was in the sixth form in 1979, then university for six years to 1986, and I had a fine education, as did my younger brother and sister. I was lucky enough not to need healthcare then, but members of my family did, which they got in clean, well-organised, well-staffed hospitals.
Contrast with two of my nieces, both theoretically on the "gifted and talented" programme, but in fact having to scrape out whatever education they can get in officially designated Failing Schools.
In short, stop peddling fiction.
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No97 Fubar,
It is sad that someone so well informed gets bored so easily.
What is wrong with the class analysis of capitalism?
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Have you been tracking the tweets coming out of the Labour Party Conference...or maybe it's just a party after all? Well subscribing to a few people, including the Twitter Tzar has been quite eye opening. Is it just a beer fuelled, ego feeding exercise, totally detached from reality? Have a read of this post outlining real tweets and pictures from the conference in Brighton. Surely after the expense debacle they would learn!
http://karlhavard.blogspot.com/2009/09/amazing-tweets-coming-out-of-labour.html
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Post 94 the price increase may have something to do with how much sterling has dropped compared to the Euro in the last six months.
Did anyone else see Panorama?
It seems to be that if we are to cut the deficit back to where Gordon originally felt it to be prudent then each and every one of us tax payers is looking at paying GBP 25,000 in extra taxes by 2014 or there are going to be some very serious cuts in services
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the question remains whom in the neu-labour party is going to be re-elected next election ??
as it stands the only person safe in that party is peter mandelson only becouse he is unelected and unelectable.
judging from watching these MP's none are electable from all parties.
this countries politics are a joke and it seems only clowns are willing to become MP's.
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Head in sand and hope for the best
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Khrystalar 147
"my apologies if I'm misrepresenting you here"
You are, but apologies accepted.
I think you are doing your level best to make minor political capital out of any old story you can lay your hands on, even those where the mythical element exceeds the factual. But likewise, my apologies if I am misrepresenting you here.
I'm a bit surprised you aren't trying to make something out of this rather nasty Steamers club that Ed Balls seems to have been a leading light in. It looks as if you find alleged damage to property to be bad but alleged "oppressive behaviour towards women" to be acceptable. What interesting flexible standards you have!
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I wonder why Mandelson chose Brighton for this years New Labour conference?
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152#
Because to my mind, it is based on an outdated hate and resentment and a perception I have (which may or may not be wrong, its only my somewhat humble opinion) that where you come from is nowhere near as important as where you are going to, what you can do with your life.
My circumstances have been well documented on here and I have nothing to hide from anyone. I genuinely harbour no resentment or hate for those who are born with more money or status than me. You get one shot at life and you can either make the most of it and seize opportunities or you can drift or you can go in a downward spiral. Now, I know not everyone either wants to go to the lengths I did or gets the chance, if they have to look after elderly relatives, etc. But significant enough numbers do get faced with the same choices I did.
You get out of life what you put in.
With regard to boredom... I just find the dogwhistling, the preaching to the converted a waste of political intellect and frankly an insult to the electorate. Its dishonest. I could understand it and maybe even forgive it a bit if every single member of that Labour front bench was the antithesis of the public school, well-connected toffs.
But they arent. Labour has their own quota of ministers and former ministers who are titled, who are sons or daughters of gentry, who were privately educated, who still continue to privately educate their own kids whilst advocating the narrowing of choice for everyone else. I'm afraid I find them tiresome.
For some things, I'm afraid, I do have a low boredom threshold. Add to those things, most types of house music, Radio 3, Vic Reeves and meetings.
Life is far far too short to spend it hating. Carpe Diem and all that. Be all you can be. If you dont like something in your life... change it.
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#152, braveSouter wrote:
No97 Fubar,
It is sad that someone so well informed gets bored so easily.
What is wrong with the class analysis of capitalism?
I know you're having a private spat. But, the problem with the class analysis of capitalism is that nobody bothers to do a class anaylsis of communism and sociliasm or any other "ism".
Because the terms don't mean anything any more. The English gentlemen who led the American Revolution described a different regime. Good idea. So the US is now divided along financial lines (with not too much class evident anywhere!).
I rather liked the history of Harry S Truman. A US President who didn't make a fortune in office or thereafter.
Contrast and compare with our own previous "Dear Leader".
The Mugabe who was feared for his communist tendencies, but seems to be enormously wealthy.
The majority of Communist or extreme socialist leaders who appear to wallow in filthy lucre.
What's the point?
People aspire to things. If they work hard, have bright ideas they can put into practice AND they're lucky, they make money. Some complete prats had riches to start with. Some strugglers made a fortune. Who gives a whatever which womb they came from, if they helped other people along the way?
For goodness sake, the Chinese hang onto a communist party structure, but embrace capitalism as the way forward. (And I haven't noticed too many of the leadership looking peeky because they don't get their rations...)
New Labour set out to win the middle earning range of UK voters. NOT a class - just an economic thing. The fact that they screwed things up wasn't to do with class - just incompetence.
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IDL @ 138
I meant credible policy based reasons rather than purely selfish reasons on an individual level
I see, so self interest is OUT and "what's best for the country" is IN - such an Idealist you are! (CTP badge if you're not careful) - hey, but what happens if different people have different ideas as to what sort of country we want to live in?
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Conservatives believe that our social and economic hierarchies are mainly derived from merit and incentives that should be "conserved". Labour's core belief is that each of us is an equal citizen and that the huge differences in those hierarchies are wrong and should be greatly reduced.
Which explains why Labour favours public services paid out of taxation levied by ability to pay, whilst Conservatives would take every opportunity to cut those services and the differential taxes that pay for them.
Simples!
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162. At 10:50pm on 28 Sep 2009, leftilkley wrote:
................Labour's core belief is that each of us is an equal citizen and that the huge differences in those hierarchies are wrong and should be greatly reduced.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Great news!!! I take it that millionaires such as Shaun Woodward and Geoff Hoon will be supplementing my meagre pension in order to make us equal citizens.
What absolute rubbish!!
When MPs get a food allowance that is greater than my total disposable income, I'm surprised you even have the gall to advance such a philosophy.
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#75 me
Sorry, I got the last couple of links links in the wrong chronological order.
With regard to the release of Lockerbie Bomber al-Megrahi, (or "Megravy" as Gordon calls him in his interview with Andrew Marr)
BBC Report - 22 August 2009 Mandelson says suggestions that the release of the Lockerbie bomber was linked to a UK-Libya trade deal are "offensive"
BBC Report - 30 August 2009 Jack Straw says reports that al-Megrahi was released over an oil deal are "wholly untrue"
BBC Report - 5 September 2009 Trade and oil played a part in the decision to include the Lockerbie bomber in a prisoner transfer deal, Jack Straw has admitted. According the report, trade was "a very big part" of the prisoner deal.
Apologies for earlier getting the last two back to front. But it is still not clear how the allegation can be "offensive" and "wholly untrue" one minute, then apparently correct the next?
They are spinning themselves into oblivion.
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zydeco @146 told us:
Yes I did as a matter of fact. I remember it well. My wife and I bought our first house - under the 'Right to buy' scheme. The increased business my employer was doing got me pay rises that allowed us to buy our first new car and, most important, 3 of my 4 children had a choice of which Grammar school they attended.
Aye yes those halcyon Thatcherite days with choice of Grammar Schools, yes super for 20%, disastrous for the other 80% (but hey who cares if my kids are alright). I think you will find the Tories closed many Grammar Schools and have no plans to reintroduce them.
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@ jrperry, post #157
Ah. Ok, I guess I should've read more into your character before bothering wasting common courtesy on you.
As I said, if I was misrepresenting your position, I apologise - but at least I was *trying* to relate my comments to what you'd actually said. You, on the other hand, don't actually appear to have taken in one word of what I actually wrote, preferring to argue with somebody you just made up in your head as opposed to the person actually corresponding with you.
No, I'm not trying to score "political capital" - I was merely curious as to the root of your lack of understanding re; the "thuggish" comments. People who go smashing up other people's property are thugs, it's that simple. I've genuinely no idea why you think it would be otherwise; and the only hint of an explanation you've offered is that the BC members pay for the damage they cause afterwards.
So I'll withdraw the courtesy; I'm NOT misrepresenting your position, you quite clearly think that if you have money to pay for the damage you cause, it's socially acceptable to go around causing criminal damage.
If this is NOT your position, then please clarify why you think that the Bullingdon Club's members ought not to be considered thugs?
As for the Ed Balls thing; the main reason I haven't commented upon this Steamers Club is because I've never actually heard of it, before tonight. All I can find on Google is a story in The Mail about Ed Balls once dressing up as a German Officer, which also mentions that the club "used to rate women on their physical appearence" and quotes one member as saying it was "mostly it was a group of lads drinking and scoring points for how far they got with the ladies".
Presumably you're about to go off into your own lurid little world and start babbling about me being a "lefty" or such nonsense, in light of me not considering this to be exactly the same thing as the Bullingdon Club's activities; but I've got to point out two things.
Firstly, "rating women on their physical appearence" isn't actually illegal - nor is it "oppressiveness to women" (however much Harriet Harman - and probably, our very own sagamix - would like us to believe it is).
Secondly, you'd be very hard pressed to find any group of lads in the country - Left, Right, or politically-indifferent - who, at one time or another, *haven't* gotten drunk and bragged about how much bedroom action they get. (I don't suppose you'd find many women who haven't, either; I know many of my female friends do on a regular basis).
No, I don't find oppressing women acceptable, any more than I do smashing up other people's property. It's just that I don't accept the standard Angry Feminist definition of "Oppressing Women". I'm curious as to why you do...?
Anyway, don't let what I just wrote stop you from blurting out another load of complete nonsense about what my position actually is. Hey, if you can't win an argument, just invent a completely different one and have *that* instead, right?
Nothing more than I'd expect from a partisan hack.
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jr perry @ 141
I'm not going to spend the whole evening defending the Bullingdon Club
what a shame - dirty work to be sure, but if anyone can do it JR, you can - but to be serious for a second (as I always am when I'm talking to you!) it's interesting (is it not?) to see how amazingly touchy a lot of the Clowns are about any reference to the Bully Club, or to the Eton Mafia ... "irrelevant" they scream ... "nobody's interested" they shout ... and so on and so forth
I wonder
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151. At 9:51pm on 28 Sep 2009, jrperry wrote:
> Yup, I was in the sixth form in 1979, then university
> for six years to 1986, and I had a fine education, as
> did my younger brother and sister. I was lucky enough
> not to need healthcare then, but members of my family
> did, which they got in clean, well-organised, well-
> staffed hospitals.
Man, now that's a long trip. I take it this was in la-la land rather than where real people live.
My 70s education included a head of history (in a rather good school) who taught hatred instead of what ought to get us through the exams. Hospitals in the 80s were a hellhole so bad they worked harder at (for example) pumping epileptics full of barbiturates while telling the government they were fit for work than trying to cure people. If you were lucky you died before your next appointment rather than suffer the indignity of it all. Even in the 90s I was getting palmed off with excuses in the hope I might finally be treated properly if I reached 65.
As much as people moan now the hospitals I visit are in good condition, you have to fight nurses off from offering you preventative treatment or advice and they're offering rather too much of some superficial treatments if you ask me.
In the 80s you were ok if you were one of the few in work - the excesses of bankers began properly then, but if not you were screwed. It was the greed indoctrinated in people who bought their council homes who were still buying and selling for ridiculously larger and larger amounts whose greed cost them in the housing correction, and whose dependence on the never-never has then squealing now about how they're not being bailed out by while simultaneously bemoaning the Gov't for doing the same for someone else.
As ever, I have no sympathy for the greedy when events finally catch up with them.
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fairly @ 160 re class
doesn't mean anything any more
I like words 2 to 5 but would replace "doesn't" with "shouldn't" as the opener ...
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Fubar Saunders @110 wrote.. 'that the constant referral to their education, to their background, when Labour also have a significant amount of public school and Oxbridge educated members of parliament and ministers, who were also part of university drinking clubs, is getting boring'.
He is correct in the sense that it is the person and not the background or education of a person that matters. Yes, and Labour has had its fair share of Public School educated MPs and millionaires. However, we are talking about an odds on future Prime Minister & Chancellor who have lived since birth in world so removed from the man & women in the Pubs & Shopping Malls, Hospitals and Schools of Britain that it makes them inherently unfit to run our Country. Every time they open their mouths the good old country toff elite shines through like a beaming blue light. But I suspect that behind all his Guff that is what attracts our friend Fubar-Saunders to Dave & George.
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Personally, I am furious with the British Public, including some of those blogging on the BBC website, for misunderstanding the reality of how our government has acquired the debt that is such a hot topic of current debate.
Labour REDUCED national debt following 1997, from the highest it had ever been under the previous tory government - which was caused largely by its astronomical failure between 1987 and 1992. To John Major's credit, he tried to sort out the mess Thatcher left behind, but was borrowing an estimatd £52billion a year, and 'Cutting' services.
Once Labour had steadied the economy in 2001, and finances improved, the country was in a better position to invest - and with that thay could increase borrowing. It is not hard to understand that a wealthier nation can borrow more, as it is not hard to understand that a millionairre can get a higher mortgage than an average shop worker. This New Labour borrowing, unlike the tory borrowing, was on investment - in schools, universities, hospitals... tangible improvements to society that would only ever encourage more investment.
Unfortunately, the world didn't prepare itself for the credit crunch (even if they did see it coming). Once this took hold, finance became hard to come by. The economy was in a fantastic state in 2007. Purring along nicely (the FTSE even pushing the 7000 point mark which was 2000 and 3000 under John Major).
The tories, had they been in power at the time of the Credit Crunch, would have made things worse - by deregulating the banks / finacial industry, and allowing more short term gambling (hedge funds / short sellers etc) resulting in an eventual complete collapse of the system. Then, to add insult to injury, they'd have done nothing about it - happy to see the majority of britain go to the wall, whilst THEY (and lets face it Cameron, Osborne, Letwin etc are all nicely buddied up with the very hedge funds that caused the problems) would make millions out of us all!
The Labour government stepped in at this moment to save jobs, and keep the economy stable - which, despite the shock, and the fact that we are a single currency among much bigger currencies (Euro, Dollar, Yen) the Pound has managed to stay at an exchange rate still higher than it was under the tories.
The 'Massive' debt we are now talking about, since last year, is the government investing in the resolution of the dire mess the banks and finance industry (not the government) have made of the economy, to make sure normal people (that's us human beings that have to worry about money unlike Mr Cameron and Co) can continue to live securely in jobs, with a decent pay, and decent rights, and a genuine cause and purpose to serve the country.
I am more than happy for Mr Brown to take these measures, in the hope that the very people that made the mess of the economy, will be the people that pay back the £175billion borrowed. Through 45% taxes, through decent and fair inheritance tax, through windfall taxes, through greater regulation of the finacial industry.
There is no 'recession' due to poor management of the economy by the government. There is a recession due to poor management (regulation) of the richest 'few' in our country and the world. Something the Tories will never, by nature, try to change.
So there you go. My view of the situation, I think Labour can put us straight again. I just hope the British Public realise before its too late.
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all pm @ 170 re Mortimax and the VPBs ...
inherently unfit to run our Country
yep, fraid so
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No 171 dorsetchris
At last someone provides a wider & accurate view of the Govts borrowing.
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No 174 allafternoon
I also think that the borrowing to 'bail out' the banks, is another investment. A long term loan, that will be paid back to the government - with interest, by the banks when they inevitably recover, which in itself will service a large proportion of the debt.
Its not as though £175 billion has just been splashed around on waste. It's being sensibly invested to secure the future.
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DorsetChris post 171
I would caution against getting to upset with the British public most of them are wise enough to know and most have lived and experienced the reality of governments economic and social policy for the last thirty years, or like me double that. What you seem to think was happening in recent years differs widely from my experience and I would suspect many others too.
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Oh dear Nick it looks as though the NuLabour numpties have come out to play.
They sound a pretty desperate bunch.
Poll puts Labour third for first time since 1982,
Gordon Brown’s “Operation Fightback” suffers another blow today with a poll that for the first time in a generation pushes Labour into third place behind the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats.
Reckon they have got a reason.
Roll On 2010 NuLabour in third place
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Let's look at where New Labour's warped ideology has got us.
Let's hope all this intrusive legislation that has created New Labour's Surveillance/Nanny State can be repealed once 'normal service is resumed' with a new governing party after the next election.
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Its not an ideological chasm its an AAAs hole ,which explains why the lord of the flies can be found there with a bung
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Having read most of the comments, and after watching two Conservative governbents closely, followed by two Labour governbents just as closely, I conclude that what we need in this country is "representation".
.
Beware the con - it's still going on, and they call it public service!
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after 13 years brown suddenly wants to sort out anti social yobs.ok great ,coming from a wishy washy government that has bent over backwards to help the perpetrators of crime and penalized the victims of crime.That case of the woman who killed herself and her disabled daughter, is a result, of just how pathetic law and order has become in broken britain.Like it or not these yobs run our streets and it will take more that a few weasel words from a weasel pm to change anything..brownwatch 244 days.
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181
"after 13 years brown suddenly wants to sort out anti social yobs.ok great ,coming from a wishy washy government that has bent over backwards to help the perpetrators of crime and penalized the victims of crime.That case of the woman who killed herself and her disabled daughter, is a result, of just how pathetic law and order has become in broken britain.Like it or not these yobs run our streets and it will take more that a few weasel words from a weasel pm to change anything..brownwatch 244 days."
==============================
Couldn't agree more.
It is ironic that this speech is being delivered the day after the inquest verdict into the family you mentioned which was so damning about Brown's Britain today.
Has he just suddenly realised that this is such a big issue ? As you say they have had 12 years or to address the problems.
I would love to see what he says in action and working, but it is more likely to be empty words and soundbites which will have no impact on the problem. No doubt assisted by several expensive review committees and quangos to oversee it. Not even talk is cheap with this lot .....
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"This may be a tougher sell, Labour strategists concede, than Peter Mandelson would wish it to be."
Or in other words a CON(FIDENCE TRICK)
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Re 171 Dorsetchris and others I suggest you read this:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5371156/either-debt-goes-up-or-goes-down-it-really-is-that-simple.thtml
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165#
"Aye yes those halcyon Thatcherite days with choice of Grammar Schools, yes super for 20%, disastrous for the other 80% (but hey who cares if my kids are alright). I think you will find the Tories closed many Grammar Schools and have no plans to reintroduce them."
And, they were a disaster for your kids were they? Or did you go to one? Or fail to get into one?
I think you'll find Shirley Williams and Roy Jenkins were in the vanguard of those closing grammar schools to be honest, rather than the tories. Camerons tories probably have no plans to reintroduce them for fear of being painted as elitists by New Labour.
But, here you go again, rewriting an airbrushing history to suit your own agenda.
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Brown to take on the yobs!!
1. Parenting orders
2. Family intervention projects
3. Removal of benefits
4. Counselling
5 More ASBOs - ordinary and drink ones.
No matter how many times I read the article, I can't find the word PUNISHMENT anywhere.
Sums up Gordon really. Completely detached from real life. Unwilling to criminalise criminals, while at the same time providing a need for many additional Family Intervention Project Co-0rdinator vacancies to be advertised in 'The Grauniad'
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Band Wagon, lets all get on the Band Wagon.....
Yet again Clown has jumped onto the latest news band wagon!
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Mandelson was indeed "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich" when it was him and his cronies who was getting "filthy rich".
Now they (Blair, Mandelson, Prescott, Brown etc) have their wealth, they are safe, and can turn (or pretend to turn) on those who only want to copy what they themselves have done...
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Party activists confidence at an all time low.
Brown will today make a speech that will hopefully boost Party morale.
Is he going to resign then?
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Duff Gordon said: UK was best placed to withstand the global recession.
The following are IMF projections for the two years 2009 and 2014. For the G7 Countries - GDP based on purchasing-power-parity (PPP) per capita.
2009 / 2014 / Country
$36,589 / $43,137 / Canada
$39,922 / $46,058 / France
$37,307 / $40,403 / Germany
$33,253 / $36,029 / Italy
$39,115 / $42,284 / Japan
$32,797 / $38,227 / UK
$45,550 / $52,392 / USA
Well at least we fare better than Italy.
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170#
"However, we are talking about an odds on future Prime Minister & Chancellor who have lived since birth in world so removed from the man & women in the Pubs & Shopping Malls, Hospitals and Schools of Britain that it makes them inherently unfit to run our Country."
What a load of old flannel. You think any of the current crop on the government front bench have lived in the real world near to the shopping malls and pubs? How does any of that make them "patently unfit"? So, being a son of the manse has made Gordon "patently fit" has it? Drivel. Utter class based drivel. If you want someone who isnt far removed from the men and women in the pubs and shopping malls and hospitals and schools to run the country, why dont you vote for Alf Garnett? Speaking of which, the closest youre going to find is going to be Nick Griffin. But you lot have spent your political lives running away from the BNP, havent you?
"Every time they open their mouths the good old country toff elite shines through like a beaming blue light. But I suspect that behind all his Guff that is what attracts our friend Fubar-Saunders to Dave & George."
You didnt read what I said to Souter, did you, Astroturfer? I'm emigrating, I wont be voting for "Dave and George". I'm yet another one who has become completely disillusioned with Labour, but therefore must be a rampant forelock tugging Uncle Tom tory wannabe, so far as you're concerned.. It doesnt mean in fact that I'm attracted to the tory party, it means that Labour have lied and cheated and mismanaged and become intoxicated on power, the results have been a disaster for the country and I'm sick to the back teeth of it. You have this incredible, paralysing myopia that anyone who doesnt toe your line must be a tory and therefore in favour of an elite. I'm not a toff, I was born in a 2 up 2 down council house in Coventry in the mid 60's and went to a comprehensive school. I dont have anything against toffs,.none of them have ever stopped me being what I want to be. I cannot for the life of me work out why your lot have this incredible self-stigmatising inferiority complex about "toffs". What do you think your precious socialism came from? The working class? Ever looked into the backgrounds of the likes of Marx and Engels? No. Didnt think so.
Its what will cost you dearest in less than 9 months time. God, I thought the tories were arrogant in 95-97. NL's chutzpah is utterly breathtaking and getting worse!
Go to the next desk and ask Charlie Whelan what all that means if you dont get it.
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Operation fightback,
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"Gordon Brown will announce a crackdown on anti-social behaviour in a make-or-break speech to Labour's conference"
So what on earth have the Goverment been working on for the past decade ? Surely this cant be a new initiative ?????
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Well Duff looks as though you’ve been sussed. Even Polly Toynbee the NuLabour torch bearer says You Are Toast.
Conference season 09: The election may be lost, but an inspired fightback could give its bright young candidates the chance to rebuild the party.
Polly is more worried about the state of the NuLabour wreck.
Roll On 2010.
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#Gedguy2 Thank you kind sir i was unaware that the Scottish baroness was not a Scottish national And i must reiterate thanks for your information in putting me right on such a delicate mater.
#97 fiber excellent script They will miss you.But don't be disillusioned there are quit a few thousand of us now residing over the channel watching in dismay as a once great country is slowly being decimated by an uncaring load of Muppet's ever to be let loose from the mental institution With an eye solely on capital gains {I / E SELF MOTIVATION}
come and join us its quite a move but more rewarding than sitting at home watching a sinking ship ,a place were the police if stopping you are very helpful not solely to make an on the spot fine for the sake of it.
#128 idespise haven't laughed so much in as many years keep em coming.
#131 passport what a howler
'
#144 olden I remember them years very well where were you? Had a wonderful life down the club having a few beers with my mates we could enjoy what we earn't if after paying our taxes .We earn't it So the nasty Tory boss made capital gains out of his own money ,He invested it didn't he and we took a little home, The kids were able to play in the streets they weren't snatched by some pervert and locked away ,The pedos kept a low profile or else.Had my own car had work. there were one or two that didn't want to work .The police force walked the streets they made their presence known they caught out the obvious license dodger to make it look good at the station.YEAH I REMEMBER THOSE GOOD TORY TIMES.
Soon it will be time to reintroduce them don't you think.?Might even get the police back on the streets and remove them snidey cameras that catch a speeding driver on the motor way Might even get rid of a few of them traffic wardens making easy money or even them wheel clamper's that everyone wants to shoot>the list is never ending and the are holding a Nulabour party Streamers funny hats double kiss on both cheeks continental stile party poppers Ed balls doing his interpretation of fawlty towers goose stepping quangos manager.WELL WELL WELL BRING ON THE ELECTION.
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173. sagamix wrote:
all pm @ 170 re Mortimax and the VPBs ...
Tut tut, Saga, another pledge broken. You have a career waiting in politics.
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195#
I'm hoping that will be the plan. Youre right it is sad to leave it behind, but... its not the land where I grew up. Not anymore.
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@ distanttraveller, post #178
"Let's hope all this intrusive legislation that has created New Labour's Surveillance/Nanny State can be repealed once 'normal service is resumed' with a new governing party after the next election."
I agree with you entirely, EXCEPT for your choice of wording in one particular place. (My bold).
Let's NOT "hope" that whoever gets in next time will repeal some of the outrageous affronts to our individual freedoms imposed upon us - or planned to be imposed upon us - by the current Government.
Let's, in fact, make DAMN SURE before we vote them in, that they will.
Blind hope - coupled with an intense disgust at the actions of the ruling party - was what got this current bunch of Charlies elected by a landslide in the first place.
Please, Britain - let's not make that mistake again. Let's make sure they tell us what their plans are BEFORE they get a chance to carry them out. And let's make sure we hold them to the promises they make in this respect, once they ARE in power.
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#196 TheBlameGame
173. sagamix wrote:
all pm @ 170 re Mortimax and the VPBs ...
Tut tut, Saga, another pledge broken. You have a career waiting in politics.
I agree - fixing the NuLabour wreck.
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196.
You have a career waiting in politics.
Just to make it clear, I didn't mean waiting on tables in the Members' restaurant.
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Appears the NuLabour are helping Scotland gain Independence.
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Whoops!
Appears the NuLabour are helping Scotland gain Independence.
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People who come back from the dead have usually been bitten by vampires - I don't think I will be voting for Count Mandelson or any of his disciples in the next general election.
#193, you are quite right, and the same could be said of ministers who claim they will be making savings in the future - why are they wasting our money now.
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In response to your various points:
1) Government debt has increased each year since financial year 2001-2002.
2) Total Government debt for 2008-2009 was 744 billion. Excluding financial sector interventions Government debt is 609 billion. i.e. 135 billion of debt is due to the financial sector rescue.
Source: Office of National Statistics
Some comments:
a) During a recession Labour apologists are very keen to quote Keynes in support of increased public spending. However, during times of economic growth they keep quiet about repaying Government debt. Labour built up debt after 2001. Labour failed to fix the roof when the sun was shining.
b) Labour apologists repeatedly exaggerate the proportion of debt due to the support of the banking sector. See above. Presumably to hide the fact that they were already losing control of the national finances by 2007-2008 (before the credit crunch).
c) the 175 billion figure that you quote several times is the Treasury's current borrowing estimate for 2009-2010 and excludes the 2008 banking rescue. It includes interest payments on the national debt and social security payments. The price, to coin a phrase, of Labour's economic failure. As spending due to Labour's failures increase the proportion of our taxes going into useful public services will decline.
d) The Labour Government, bankers, and financial regulators all share the responsibility for the current crisis.
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More like the Prince of Darkness!
I heard the speech and to be honest it made me nearly sick.
Sick of him, sick of GB, sick of the lot of them.
One can only hope that the earth opens up and swallows the lot of them for what they have done to this once fine country.
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95 Amazing I had exactly the same thought , Munich rally springs to mind.
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"Roll_On_2010 wrote:
Operation fightback,"
This is apparently the second time Brown's Labour have decided to use a BNP slogan as their rallying cry! Someone should really do better research before coming up with them.
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So with the newspapers full of the story of the hounding to death of Fiona Pilkington by out of control kids, what is Brown apparently going to talk about at his conference? Anti-social behaviour. He's going to be tough on it. The things is, of course, that labour have now been in power for 12 years. Only supine apologists can excuse the party that has been in power for that long for being responsible for the society in which we live.
Want to work hard? We'll tax you. Want to save for your retirement? We'll tax your pension funds. Want to laze about and do nothing? Here, have some benefits. Want to smash up a few bus shelters? We'll try and 'understand' you and send you on an adventure holiday.
Welcome to Labour's Britain.
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