EU: If DC were PM
Eurostar to Brussels: En route to tonight's EU leaders' dinner, my mind turns to what it would be like if David Cameron were prime minister. I am not the only one thinking about this.
Across Europe, they will have noticed that yesterday the Tory leader dodged a question on what he would do if the Irish vote Yes in their referendum on the Lisbon Treaty - putting what was once called the EU constitution back on track.
David Cameron is committed to holding a referendum on the treaty and campaigning for a No vote. His problem will come if the Treaty is law and European leaders and Eurosceptics alike demand to know what he means by saying he will "not let the matter rest".
Cameron said he did not want to comment before ratification was complete in all countries. Some Tories are hoping that their old ally Vaclav Klaus, the Czech president, may drag out his country's ratification process until after the election so that Cameron - if he's PM by then - can still hold his referendum.
What, though, if he can't? Would the Tory leader prefer to see his first few months in office occupied by a battle with the EU or with Eurosceptics in his own party?
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I doubt if he'd prefer either, but I suspect he'll get both.
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So Cameron avoided answering a question.
Well, that's one up on Brown. When Brown should be avoiding answering a question, he can't help himself.
He simply lies.
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Keep an eye on Gordon for us will you Nick! You know what he's like.
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Hopefully the Irish will do the right thing, vote the proposal down and make the whole deal irrelevant. If not then hopefully Cameron will tell Europe where to stick their constitution when he wins the election, and if necessary pull us out of the EU, they need us considerably more than we need them.
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Sounds like Camerons's bandwago jumping has caught up with him.
His original plan was to play on the fact that through ignorance, most british people seem to believe that this referendum is about whether or not to remain in the EU, which of course it never was.
Its always been a referendum, which if passed will result in much needed changes to role of the EU and hopefully make it exponentially more efficient & relevant.
Its difficult to see how critics of Europe can be against such reform.
So if Cameron was to campaign for a 'no' vote , he'd actually be supporting the EU to continue in its present form, which pretty much everyone agrees would not be good thing.
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lmao
As per my last comment on the prvious thread, I was wondering what your next topic would be Nick. Surprise, surprise it's about the tories and combined with their most divisive subject - Europe.
Just so the mods realise that I'm on topic... For what it's worth I still want the referendum I was promised by EVERY party, since Labour broke that promise (who'd have thought it!) I hold out hope that the Tories wont. I dont care how many countries ratify this treaty the British public MUST be consulted before our sovereign powers are given away, this is not something a government of any political stripe should have the authority to do.
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There is no point in Cameron showing his hand before it is necessary. I would like to think he has a plan which ever way the ratification by other countries pan out.
Having said that, Cameron would be a hero to most of Europe if he stopped the Euro juggernaut in it tracks. Everytime a nation has had the chance to vote on the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution, they have rejected it but the European elite refuse to take no for an answer.
If Cameron choose to reject the treaty he would have President Obama in his corner as he confirmed his view on the sovereignty of nation states.
“America’s interest in an international system that advances cooperation while respecting the sovereignty of all nations. State sovereignty must be a cornerstone of international order. Just as all states should have the right to choose their leaders, states must have the right to borders that are secure, and to their own foreign policies. That is true for Russia, just as it is true for the United States. Any system that cedes those rights will lead to anarchy.”
Barack Obama, New Economic School, Moscow, Russia, July 2009.
No better endorsement than that!
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Nick, you say "my mind turns to what it would be like if David Cameron were prime minister. I am not the only one thinking about this."
Perhaps another way of looking at this would be to ask what it would be like if, after the next election, Gordon Brown were still prime minister?
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Iam sure he will have some sound advice from other members of the party if and when elected into office, As a new broom will always sweep clean and attempt to keep electorate happy as iam sure he is capable if given a chance, After all he can't do any more damage than has all ready been inflicted can he? Quote things can only get better.
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My understanding is that once the Lisbon treaty/EU constitution has been ratified by all member states then it cannot be revoked by one member unilaterally.
If true, it would be pointless for Cameron to call a referendum but perfectly reasonable for him to use the call for the right to opt out of unwanted clauses as a negotiating tool in future discussions.
To answer your final question, he can do both and I doubt that many diehard tory eurosceptics would be daft enough to rock the boat so soon after being in opposition for 13 years. Don't forget that if the tories do get in the majority of the MPs will be newcomers or those who weren't part of the 90's infighting.
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When push comes to shove, the Irish will vote "no" again (hooray).
More Euro-sceptical groups will also put the pressure on too, so the Czech's will also end up rejecting the treaty.
And Cameron will let the UK have a vote, so that we can vote "no" too.
With a bit of luck we can get the Dutch to hold another "confirmation referendum" where they will reject it like they did the first time.
Then the EU fanatics can chuck the treaty in the bin, and let the EU remain what it always should be... en economic-union.
Nothing more.
See, it really can have a happy ending.
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Either way he's going to be in a battle with the Eurosceptics it doesnt matter what the Irish vote is, people are still going to cause problems when this topic comes up. The best he can hope is that he can divert it into a skirmish rather than letting it become the main issue of the day.
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An interesting question, for sure, but it's hardly the biggest political story of the day, is it?
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Nick Robinson:
I would like to also, know what David Cameron thoughts are on his thoughts regarding the future of United Kingdom in the European Union....
=Dennis Junior=
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Nick Robinson:
What, though, if he can't? (Yes, he can; He will time to make out all of the arrangements)
Would the Tory leader prefer to see his first few months in office occupied by a battle with the EU or with Eurosceptics in his own party? I think that is what the Tory Leader is on the working thread wants to do is...Wait and see than having a battle with either EU and/or Euroskeptics...
=Dennis Junior=
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I wonder if DC will be as tough on employing illegal workers as Labour promised to be. In December 2007, Immigration Minister Liam Byrne said:
"Illegal working attracts illegal migrants and undercuts British wages. That's why we're determined to shut it down.
"The message is clear for employers - we will not tolerate illegal working.
"[A planned] highly visible marketing campaign will ensure employers have no excuse for breaking the rules."
Perhaps, Nick, you could bring this point up with Mr Brown or maybe even the current Attorney General and former Minister at the Home Office, Baroness Scotland. Certainly Jacqui Smith saad that the rules they introduced in 2007 would deter "slipshod recruitment methods".
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"En route to tonight's EU leaders' dinner, my mind turns to what it would be like if David Cameron were prime minister."
Yeah, I bet that made for a few collywobbles before the waitress came round with the champagne in Leisure Select, didnt it?
Trying out the seats on Eurostar for size Nick, just in case of NL imploding next spring?
"Last one out of Wood Lane, please turn off the lights"?
Watch out for that Irish pub in Schuman behind the EU building. 5 Euro's for Guinness for heavens sake. Its a rip off.
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Sorry Nick,
Did you have to squeeze past the 'elephant in the room' to get to this topic!
So, DC is playing his cards close on this one, we know his view, but declaring his 'what if' strategy to the world is not tactically very wise at this stage, is it?
Now, back to the 'elephant'and what should happen to Gordon now he has been caught out over the treasury leak!
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Amazing that that democracy in this country is dependent on so many "if's". Why can't Brown simply be honourable and democratic rather than dishonest & autocratic?
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Look, the crux of the matter is that most laypeople such as myself, do not actually know what the Lisbon Treaty is. Apparently it is lengthy and complicated.
I suggest somebody does a precised down "idiots' guide" to it, endorsed by the legal beagles. Put it online, we can read it, and be a lot clearer on what we want or don't want.
Simple really.
DC is committed to pleasing the people - he's seen and is seeing their wrath, ire and angst against Brown et al. No way will he want to go to the place THEY are in.
We all hopeful that DC will be da man. I am sure he will.
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All three parties promised us a referendum on the revised European arrangements when they wanted our votes at the last election. We have been cheated out of it by the present government. An incoming government should not ratify this cheating. It should hold the promised referendum.
The arguments for and against Lisbon are far from all one way. A debate about the merits would be helpful and whatever the outcome of the vote, having one should settle the position of the UK in Europe for some time to come. Until we have the referendum, our relationship with Europe will be a running sore- hardly a desirable state of affairs.
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What has this peice go to do with Eu "Leaders" meeting.
Or do you now accept that Cameron is going to be our next leader.
In which case can you ask the irrelevant current encumbant when he will do us all a favour and leave!
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Hope you have a nice day out there Nick, is Baroness Scotland going too?
Who asked the czech's to come into the EU?
Could they still be our saviours unless Ireland does the right thing?
I can't see Ireland helping us out though because the credit crunch has shown that the celtic tiger economy was based on less than solid foundations. Hopefully the Irish people will see that those poor structures were put there because they were members of the EU.
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As a majority of the UK population would almost certainly vote 'NO" to the constitutuion and possibly also to our complete withdrawal from Europe, this is going to be a tricky one for Cameron. As a staunch EU supporter himself, he will have to put his personal prejudices aside.
If the treaty is not ratified by the time he gets into power (assuming he does) then a referendum needs to be held as soon as possible.
Should the treaty have been ratified before the election, a poll still needs to be held to assess the feeling of the British people.
The problem with the whole EU question is that it appears to be another level of bureaucracy that is devoted to making incomprehensible laws that do nothing for the ordinary citizen.
The whole wheelie-bin/recycling farce started in Europe as did the document that says criminals must get better treatment than victims called the Human Rights Act.
Still, fingers crossed, Ireland could yet vote no again which will give us another year before they're forced to vote again.
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Must be a slow day in Westminster, guess I must have dreamt the reports of a senior minister hiring an illegal immigrant, Harriet Harman trying to airbrush Margaret Thatcher out of a history of women in power (the first woman councillor gets named but not the first woman party leader/Prime Minister?) and Gordon Brown getting caught out regarding cuts.
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This is a bit of a no brainer really.
Cameron isn't PM & he won't be able to change the Lisbon treaty retrospectively if he does get into No 10 after it has been ratified.
Comparisons with Brown are not valid because Brown is in power, promised us a referendum & let us down like he has so many times before.
Cameron may have to write this one off & put it down to experience.
There is little more he can do.
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The foundations of the EU are based in banking and currency exchanges. It favors big business and banking interest. They have done so much for everyone over the past couple of years we would certainly want to continue their agenda. Greater efforts to move the governments further away from the people for the benefit of business. The development of a system to use public funds to promote private sector ventures that result in a greater concentration of wealth. Throw back to the Holy Roman Empire, and like that, nothing Holy about it.
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Cameron is right to keep his powder dry on the Lisbon Treaty.
Everyone already knows that nothing can be said or done until the treaty is ratified or not. Brown has already committed the UK without the referendum we were promised so we are left in limbo.
That leaves those of us totally against a federal Europe spitting blood especially having seen the nincompoop Berossa re-elected for another five years.
Whether the treaty is ratified or not I suspect Cameron will have enough on his plate prioritising our own country first. Any further arguments on Europe can be put on the back burner until normal service is resumed.
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Nick
Ponder this - the PM is waiting for the Irish vote before he calls an election. That is the only reason that they have to wait right now. All economic indicators show we are broke, the Irish vote will at least get the final part of what Labour can do to destroy this country ratified by accepting Lisbon, so Cameron can do very little if it is ratified.
The battle needs to be had with Europe about many many things. It will keep you busy for many years to come. The whole experiment has gone far too far and Blair and Brown gave away for nothing the last negotiating chip Britain had. It is going to take massive commitment, leadership and courage to stand against the EU but it needs to happen. Tragically most in this country are completely ignorant to what is going on and what potentially can happen.
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Interesting picture at the top.
I wonder, is it real or has it been photoshopped?
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I am largely confused as to why this is a story and would be grateful if somebody could help with this.
Surely DC has stated and restated that he is committed to holding a referendum on the treaty. If there had been, or was due to be a general election before the 2nd October (I think that’s the date for the Irish ref) then I would see the story. Either DC would be in power, and we would be waiting to see if his word was worth anything, or he wouldn’t be and the point would be irrelevant.
As it stands the GE will not be till next year and as such DC is powerless to effect any change. Surely Nick these are questions that should wait till after the 2nd when they will have more relevance. There must be more pressing issues at present that merit discussion, or maybe I am just a confused and misguided soul.
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"Would the Tory leader prefer to see his first few months in office occupied by a battle with the EU or with Eurosceptics in his own party?"
Nick,
The first few months of whoever-is-PM's time will be entirely focused on trying to work out how to manage the economic crisis.
Cameron could simply pull UK representation at Council of Ministers - which would block most action - until the EU seriously re-examines the Common Agricultural Policy.
That was promised when Blair reduced the UK "rebate" and thus increased our net contributions.
Not too much activity so far.
The EU needs the UK more than v.v. We are massively in balance of trade deficit with the bloc, so nobody would be keen to see that threatened.
(Oh, and we tend to implement EU regulations more rapidly and far more rigorously than most!)
Not sure this was a "hot topic" for your blog. I'd have thought some stuff about:
"How hard will it be for small businesses to manage illegal immigrant employment, if even the government's senior law officer can't do it?"
or
"Would Cameron take seriously Duncan Smith's report about reforming credit and benefit rules, to try and help the poorer population? And would anyone in Labour "think the unthinkable", without being sacked for doing so?"
But, a bit of speculation about a non-issue is probably best...
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I suppose we can wait and see, if Labour nick the idea of a Referendum as they have down with GPs.
Oh, they were going to do it anyway, were they?
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8261200.stm
Any comment nick?
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Why can't Cameron hold a refendum whatever the status of the treaty/constitution ? and then act on the wishes of the public.
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one can only hope the irish people see the light and vote it down.
so DC avoided a question well to be honest if he had answered either way he would have caused a greater argument.
sadly in todays politics you are damned if you do and damned if you dont, so no matter what DC did would open the gates for other parties to attack.
it shows how flawed the system is when parties are so involved in themselves they nit pick each other just to obtain popular votes.
this country needs and requires better.
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I'm not a tory (or a member of any political party) but it seems strange to me that this should be the subject of today's blog, the day after we have been presented with clear evidence that the Prime Minister has attempted to mislead Parliament (I say "attempted" because I don't think anyone believed him anyway) and his repeated denials of cuts under Labour have been shown to be false. Are things now so bad that the dishonesty of the PM is no longer an issue?
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Nick, after what has gone on over the past couple of days with Mr Brown
having to admit that cuts will take place and then caught out with Labours own figures to which nobody in the Labour party will own up to, why have you gone in a different direction? would it not be better trying to get a straight answer out of Browns lips before moving on to Cameron? or have you been warned off by the dark lord?????
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What! Nothing to say about Baroness Scotland? Or Mr 9.3%'s terminological inexactitudes?
Surely the manner in which our current government conducts itself now is of more relevance than what David Cameron and the Conservatives might do about Europe in certain future circumstances? Does that make me off topic? Or Mr Robinson?
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Nick
It is not quite as simple as it appears depending on whether the Scots/ SNP get the vote for Independence and if they do would Scotland automatically become a member of the EU/NATO when they are opposed to the UK's existing defence arrangements?
A British PM would have to consider the prospect of a Scottish anomoly on its actual border and all of the issues and implications this raises.
A British PM would also need/have to consider all of these aspects and which may require major UK/EU constitutional amendment - that would logically be the critical point and would need a lot of input by the British PM for the security and defence of the 'UK'.
However, being as Scotland is 'subsidised', the Scots may yet prefer to vote with their wallets (Surprise! Surprise!).
We obviously need a UK PM that we can trust with this extremely worrying situation - I just don't think that 'the penny has dropped' yet as to how serious this situation is for the 'UK'.
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If the European issue eventually gives David Cameron grief he won't be the first Conservative leader to be so afflicted. He always has the option of a referendum and I suspect that when push comes to shove, he'll have to hold one. Because even if a number of Conservatives like Ken Clarke might hold pro-Treaty views, there's no evidence that the broad electorate does. Also Cameron needs an issue to be definitive about after he and George Osborne continue to be vague about public spending. Caledonian Comment
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hello Nick,
my mind turns to what it would be like if David Cameron were prime minister. I am not the only one thinking about this
you certainly aren't, babe, I think about it quite a lot - main thing is to keep a very careful count of the tablets while you're doing it, and also make sure you have your Mother and a couple of close friends on speed dial
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Nick,
No mention of Brown lying to Parliament or the nation about spending, but you are willing to ask Cameron tricky questions over Europe. Brown should resign for lying to us.
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With all the political stories around today is this really all you can come up with?
With regards to David Cameron and the EU I would like to hope that if the czech and Ireland do vote yes then he will still give us the referendum we were promised and another to see if we still actually want to still be part of the EU but in reallity I don't expect that much would actually be done or could be done.
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If the vast majority of British people were not sure to have rejected ratfying this EU treaty in all but name. Gordon Brown would have been pleased to have honoured his Party's never ending election pledges to hold such a referendum.
What kind of a guy would deny his whole counrty this fundermental right just so his worst enemy (Blair)could become the First President of the EU?
With a friend like Brown neither Blair nor the British people need enemies!
The only reason David Cameron would allow the British people a say in this momentous decision and give us a referedum! Is he puts his country before his enemies!
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Hardly the biggest issue facing you today, was it?
What about Baroness Scotland and her less than scrupulous employment policies? Surely the fact that the Attorney General now needs to fine herself £10,000 because she 'unwittingly' broke migrant employment laws she herself helped to draw up is a bigger story?
What about the leaked Labour documents revealing the lies and deceit emanating from No 10, that show the hypocrisy of our unelected PM, who spent the last 6 months deceiving the house and the public about his party's planned public spending cuts? Surely the fact we have such a man as Prime Minister is a bigger story?
With regard to EU treaty/constitution and a referendum, there's no doubt who the majority of the public prefer to believe. That would be the party leader who has NOT broken promises, lied, and deceived Parliament and the british people. Hint: his initials are certainly NOT G.B.
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Nice newlabour defering tactic to ask a question with ten million hypotheticals.
Who knows what DC would say but I'd porefer him to get into a scrap with the EU than roll over like a dead parrot as this useless government has done.
Call an election for heaven's sake
And sack the attorney general.
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#21. At 2:29pm on 17 Sep 2009, flamepatricia wrote:
"Look, the crux of the matter is that most laypeople such as myself, do not actually know what the Lisbon Treaty is. Apparently it is lengthy and complicated."
flamep,
Being a European by geographical accident (just as I'm a Brit - or English if people want to get picky) and with a French wife and having been engaged in business in most EU countries, I did try to read the Treaty. (I read the Constitution, but gave up with the replacement document in disgust.)
It is deliberately complicated.
The original Constitution was realatively easy reading. Giscard d'Estang and the Commission troops took out a few bits, but then re-wrote the Treaty of Lisbon in a cross referencing sort of way. In other words, new words to replace, augment or modify existing, referenced treaty texts.
The intention was very clearly to produce 95percent of the Constitution but mainly in the form of amendments. Deliberately to make it harder to read and understand. A point that was admitted by several governments.
It's true that the EU needs to be more efficient. Even so, many of the proposals from the Treaty of Lisbon have already been introduced - despite the fact that the Treaty is not legally enforceable until ratified by every member state. But, heck, why should a bunch of bureaucrats worry about anything as insignificant as "political accountability"?
By the way, is Peter Mandelson still receiving "adaptation payments" that seem to be given to ex-Commissioners who leave post, to allow them to settle into their post-luxury lives?
Funny if we're paying for him twice over!!!
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I can't see it being an issue; the treaty wont get ratified before the election. Cameron knows this and isn't stupid enough to give a divisive answer to a problem he's unlikely to face.
To be honest I'm content that the Tories seem to be sticking to their referendum stance.
As with other posters above I am confused as to why the Nick's blog has picked up on this relatively minor issue. Surely the story about Brown misleading parliament and getting caught is more relevant?
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#34. fairlyopenminded
"(Oh, and we tend to implement EU regulations more rapidly and far more rigorously than most!)"
This is a myth, when it comes to implementing EU directives UK is lagging behind compared to most of Europe.
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@ sonofthedesert, post #42;
"...it seems strange to me that this should be the subject of today's blog, the day after we have been presented with clear evidence that the Prime Minister has attempted to mislead Parliament... Are things now so bad that the dishonesty of the PM is no longer an issue?"
Hmmm... is there something wrong with your mouse-wheel, my friend? You can click the side-bar on the right-hand side of your window to scroll down, if so. The debate on Gordon Brown lying about cuts is still going, right below this one on Mr Robinson's Main Blog Page.
Are Tory supporters that un-confident of their chosen messiah's abilities that they're scared to see any stories about David Cameron on the BBC...?
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How about commenting on the fact that the Irish have already voted but because they came up with the "wrong" result they had to vote again?
And didn't Gordon promise a vote on the Constitution; oh yes I forgot this isn't the "Constitution" is it?
If it quacks it's a duck if it lies it's .... well lets not go that way.
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35. At 2:51pm on 17 Sep 2009, you wrote:
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
You what ....... Run the rules by me again , because your deletion doesn't break any of the rules you have printed
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21 At 2:29pm on 17 Sep 2009, flamepatricia wrote:
Look, the crux of the matter is that most laypeople such as myself, do not actually know what the Lisbon Treaty is. Apparently it is lengthy and complicated.
I suggest somebody does a precised down "idiots' guide" to it, endorsed by the legal beagles. Put it online, we can read it, and be a lot clearer on what we want or don't want.
Simple really......
===
It must be. Caroline Flint, when Minister for Europe, confirmed that she had not read it.
Says it all, really!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/5084584/Caroline-Flint-Europe-minister-hasnt-read-Lisbon-Treaty.html
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@42
"Are things now so bad that the dishonesty of the PM is no longer an issue?"
Sadly it seems so, and thats one of the sorriest sentences I think I've ever heard.
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#40 dotsanddashes
"Why can't Cameron hold a refendum whatever the status of the treaty/constitution ? and then act on the wishes of the public".
You ask a good question, but the problem is this. Once the constitutional treaty has been ratified by all members states, it then comes into force. Once that happens, so the theory goes, it cannot be un-ratified.
The fact that a future elected government could have its hands tied in this way in perpetuity, actually tells you all you need to know about why it should be rejected.
David Cameron should be unequivocal and say that he will hold a referendum come what may, whatever the state of play in other member states.
Brown's decision to sign without holding a referendum should be declared legally null and void because he exceeded his authority. Labour was elected on a manifesto that promised a referendum on and their change of mind amounts to a breach of 'contract' and 'electoral trust'. It was the expectation of the people that a change to our constitution would not rest on the whim of one man.
I believe that a new law should be brought in regarding this. Where prospective MPs publish a manifesto and are elected as a result of those pledges, they should face legal proceedings if it is found they have broken their promise. With the exception of genuine cases beyond anyone's control, if an MP is found guilty of breaking a manifesto pledge, they should be barred for life for holding any sort of public office. I dare say that would focus the minds of a few of these career politicians.
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Come on now Nick this is a contrived Story and you know it we know it and you know we know it.
There are much other factual storys than a "What if" to have a pop at the Tories.
They have all been mentioned above so I will spare myself the bother of typing.
But come on now get some self respect and cover these bigger more serious and grave issues.
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My personal view is that Cameron is mad. The next election is one that no one wants to win, surely? I'd like to see Brown stay in power merely for his nose to be rubbed in the mess he made. Anyway, Brown's conduct over signing the Treaty suggests he doesn't want it either but daren't stand up to another about face.
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I think that we overdo the EU issue. Europe needs us and we need Europe. Therefore somewhere along the way any issues around the Treaty will get sorted. Pragmatism will hold sway. I am not sure why the political focus has swung away from the UK economy where we have problems aplenty.
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#59 yellowbelly1959
The link you give is a timely reminder that this constitutional treaty has been pushed through without proper scrutiny, or the opportunity for the voters to have any say as they were promised. For these reasons, Brown's 'ratification' should be declared legally invalid.
The fact that Caroline Flint, Minister for Europe, hadn't even read the treaty should come as no surprise. As she herself claimed, many women ministers were only there as window dressing. Clearly as a minister who couldn't be bothered to read important documents, she should know!
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Nick
T'would be interesting to know what subjects are up for discussion at this EU leaders meeting. Don't suppose law breaking ministers or less than truthful leaders is on the agenda are they?
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61. At 4:52pm on 17 Sep 2009, DistantTraveller wrote:
...Brown's decision to sign without holding a referendum should be declared legally null and void because he exceeded his authority. Labour was elected on a manifesto that promised a referendum on and their change of mind amounts to a breach of 'contract' and 'electoral trust'. It was the expectation of the people that a change to our constitution would not rest on the whim of one man.....
===
Indeed, a decision he was so proud of that he did not attend the official photocall for the signing, but instead slunk in after everybody else, and especially the media, had left.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2007/dec/12/uk.eu
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I doubt that there will be a referendum. The Irish will vote yes, and before you can say 'Blair for President' it will be ratified. And nothing the Tories can do will reverse that.
Brown will then resign but first he helps to vote in President Blair.
Was this the deal that Brown/Blair agreed to when he took over ?
Remember the 'New World Order' speech by Brown. He hasn't mentioned that for a while, but I doubt it has gone away.
Brown goes on despite constant vilification. Why is that ? Is he on a bigger mission ?
Mad conspiracy theory ? Maybe, only time will tell.
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It's not a story is it Nick.
But lets be frank about this by saying that if the Lisbon treaty is ratified and Brown wins the election (god forbid) then UK MP's become irrelevant and our freedom and what happens here will be determined by politicians who are unaccountable to us.
More taxpayers money siphoned off into the bent Euro MP's pockets.
Unions will become stronger as they were in the 70's making it less attractive to businesses coming to invest in the UK.
I think there will be a few extra plane seats needed out of the UK if Brown gets his way as this country will be finished inside a Euro super state.
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64. At 5:05pm on 17 Sep 2009, ARHReading wrote:
I think that we overdo the EU issue. Europe needs us and we need Europe.
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A sweeping statement that just ain't true. Countries such as Norway and Switzerland are doing very nicely outside of the EU.
At most the UK should be part of the EEA which is something akin to what most of us believed we originally joined - a trading bloc.
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Khrystalar Post 56.
If you took the time to actually read what I said you would have noted I am not a tory. I have no problem with the policies and actions of all parties being open to scrutiny.
Whilst the debate on Nick Robinson's previous blog re cuts may be ongoing the blog itself was posted prior to the discosure of the Treasury figures which called into question the PM's honesty. Surely this is an important development deserving of some comment from Nick himself, not just contributors to his previous post.
There are two distinct issues to be addressed - (1)cuts to public services and (2) whether the PM tried to mislead Parliament and the country regarding proposals for cuts. I happen to think the 2nd issue is just as important as the 1st and is certainly more relevant at the moment than hypothetical conjecture about situations in Europe over which the Tories currently have no control.
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I expect Mr Cameron and Mr Osborne will be good Tories and
1) refuse to use trains to Brussels and instead go by boat (maybe loaned by Mr Osborne's friends)
2) Not talk to anyone except fringe parties from countries including one that a that a former Conservative Prime minister helped dismember!
Yes we will have endless spats with Brussels (a bit like Mr Salmond has with Westminster).
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#53 fairlyopenmind
Hope this helps. I posted this comment at the time.
Here is what some people across Europe said about the constitution/treaty;
The substance of the Constitution is preserved. That is a fact.
Angela Merkel, German Chancellor
A great part of the content of the European Constitution is captured in the new treaties.
Jose Zapatero, Spanish Prime Minister
The good thing is that all the symbolic elements are gone, and that which really matters the core is left.
Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Danish Prime Minister
They haven’t changed the substance - 90 per cent of it is still there.
Bertie Ahern, Irish Taoiseach
It’s essentially the same proposal as the old Constitution.
Margot Wallstrom, European Commissioner
Only cosmetic changes have been made and the basic document remains the same.
Vaclav Klaus, Czech President
There’s nothing from the original institutional package that has been changed.
Astrid Thors, Finnish Europe Minister
This text is, in fact, a rerun of a great part of the substance of the Constitutional Treaty.
Valery Giscard d’Estaing, Author of the European Constitution
Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly. All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way.
Valery Giscard d’Estaing, Author of the European Constitution
They decided that the document should be unreadable. If it is unreadable, it is not constitutional, that was the sort of perception. Should you succeed in understanding it at first sight there might be some reason for a referendum, because it would mean that there is something new.
Giuliano Amato, Italian Interior Minister
The aim of the Constitutional Treaty was to be more readable; the aim of this treaty is to be unreadable. The Constitution aimed to be clear, whereas this treaty had to be unclear.
It is a success.
Karel de Gucht, Belgian Foreign Minister
Britain is different. Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?
Jean Claude Juncker, Prime Minister of Luxembourg
The good thing about not calling it a Constitution is that no one can ask for a referendum on it.
Giuliano Amato, Italian Interior Minister
The manifesto is what we put to the public. We’ve got to honour that manifesto. That is an issue of trust for me with the electorate.
Gordon Brown, 24 June 2007
The Constitutional Treaty has been abandoned.”
David Miliband, Foreign Secretary
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I always find it strange that this is such a big issue.
Why, oh why, do the the Conservatives and so many of the British public resent being told what to do by Europe when they're quite happy to do exactly what an Australian American media owner wants them to do? Puzzling.
Anyway, back to Cameron and Europe. Well, thus far, he's managed to make a complete mess of everything and alienate himself from potential European allies who mean something so no doubt he'll make even more of a dog's dinner of things when he obtains power.
Generally, Cameron tends not to have a clue when it comes to issues abroad unless it comes booking holidays.
Thanks Nick for making your blog about anything other than cuts and the failure of the public sector (when the failure was in the private sector... remember the banking bailouts).
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Caroline Flint along with many other MPs did not need to read the treaty.They were told how to vote by the party whips so no knowledge of what they were voting for was required.
Further reinforcement of my contention that Parliament today exists only to serve itself not the public it is meant to represent.
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every single person who's captain keen on having this referendum on Lisbon is planning to vote "NO" - why is that? - is it the old thing whereby certain people only want to play a game if they think they're bound to win? - you know the type, right? ... "yes, that is my ball ... must have got a lucky kick out of the trees! ... just a wedge from here, I'd have thought"
and Nick can you PLEASE change the photo at the top of this blog, it's giving me the willies
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#67 yelloebelly1959
"instead slunk in after everybody else, and especially the media, had left"
Yes, what an embarrassment. To paraphrase Sybil in the Fawlty Towers episode The Psychiatrist, "If you're going to sign a treaty, have the courage to be in same room as the other signatories when you're doing it"
But as for Labour's deception and non-delivery of the referendum as promised by their own manifesto, I believe the ratification should be considered invalid. If a party makes a firm promise, but then once elected wilfully breaks that promise, this amounts to an election fraud.
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Since we are day-dreaming, how would the Brussels majority (all those who like their very comfortable life) feel about Nick Clegg as PM or Deputy PM? Clegg is serious about refoming the EU and he knows what he is talking about.
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#55. At 4:23pm on 17 Sep 2009, Gunota wrote:
"34. fairlyopenminded
"(Oh, and we tend to implement EU regulations more rapidly and far more rigorously than most!)"
This is a myth, when it comes to implementing EU directives UK is lagging behind compared to most of Europe."
Gunota,
I can only work on what I read in the press and find on EU sites. Maybe you can point me to a EU site that shows the timing of passing of laws/directives and their entry into local governments legislative status.
I also mentionede he rigour of application. France, Italy and Greece all made what should have been declared illegal payments to bail out their national airlines. I don't find that a "rigorous" application of rules. Do you? And I can't find evidence of financial sanctions. Can you?
I seem to recall that quite recently, the UK were sanctioned because a completely useless Ministry responsible for distributing CAP money didn't get its finger out, so the money flowed like glue. And I seem to recall that this government said the costs would have to be accepted by the ministry, rather than going to Brussels, banging on the table and telling 'em to "soldier off".
If Brussels is going to fine a country because it's got bad administration, we're all in the brown stuff.
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#73 Roll_On
Thank you for this reminder.
This is a huge fraud being perpetrated against all the peoples of Europe, not just the British. Let's not forget that as well as the Irish, the French and the Dutch also said 'no'.
In fact, whenever the public have been asked, it got a resounding 'no'. The European Superstate now being created is not merely undemocratic, it is anti-democratic.
Our so-called 'ratification' was an act of treason.
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Yes - The topic may be impertinent in context of the nation's problems as Brown is otherwise getting his usual media bashing which leaves the BBC thinking it is itself open to criticism.
However, the country is in crisis but surprisingly neither Nick Clegg or David Cameron invite/request Parliament to be recalled for a special sitting.
There is more than enough problems stacked against Brown/NL to get him/them all impeached in most countries in the world but it just shows how weak is the UK constitution and as open to abuse.
Nixon was impeached in the US for lying over a burglary but we have no similar constitutional device to hold Brown/Blair/Mandelson to account when Brown does not even have an electoral mandate to govern.
The only logical conclusion is that Brown's opponents see Brown as so weak that they do not even need to campaign with Brown at the helm - and wish to keep him there for the present.
Does anyone think that the status quo is in the nation's interests?
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#59. At 4:33pm on 17 Sep 2009, yellowbelly1959 wrote:
"21 At 2:29pm on 17 Sep 2009, flamepatricia wrote:
Look, the crux of the matter is that most laypeople such as myself, do not actually know what the Lisbon Treaty is. Apparently it is lengthy and complicated....
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It must be. Caroline Flint, when Minister for Europe, confirmed that she had not read it.
Says it all, really!"
Sad thing is, folks, that I fear that few of the laws trotted through the house are studied in great detail by the Ministers responsible. Those who bother to read them quite often don't understand them.
Not long back, Alan Johnson got up n the HoC and effectively said "Hey, I'm a bog-standard politician, you can't expect me to challenge whatever it was that the guys in the Ministry told me to say". And he was Home Secretary! Potential Leader? Oh dear.
Flint complained of being treated like "female window dressing". Well, well. If you can't be ..... to read the stuff that YOU of all people, as the Europe Minister, were expected to explain and defend, how do you really expect to be treated?
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DC ought to fight for a more harmonised Europe, not cave into the europhobic Redwood backwoodsmen.
I have said this a thousand times on this blog, but I shall again:
The Lisbon Treaty would increase the powers of the parliament in Brussels. Most importantly it will create a more workable framework of internal institutions, vital given the recent EU expansions to the east.
I fail to understand the hysteria concerning this Lisbon Treaty.
For example the treaty would establish an EU foreign issues commissioner, not an EU foriegn minister. (despite what sordid little rags like the Mail say)
And the Commission would have the ability to modify, redraft existing bills without trying to get unilateral agreement from all 27 member-states (which is currently proving to be unworkable).
Put simply, there is a lot of nonsense talked about Lisbon, and for all of its failings, it is still comprehensively beneficial to the EU. It increases democracy, and modernises legislative patterns.
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The fact that so much obfuscation and chicanery has had to take place to get the treaty this far should really give everybody a clue to what it really is.
Add to this the fact that Governments were scared to go to their electorates with referenda and one does have to seriously wonder what 'nasties' are contained in this document.
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The problem for any Government, whatever party that may be, is that in the background of any dealings with the EU, there is the knowledge that as much as 75% of the population are against our involvement in Europe and whatever is being negotiated is not supported by the electorate.
Not just a UK thing either.
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76 sagamix
"every single person who's captain keen on having this referendum on Lisbon is planning to vote "NO" - why is that? - is it the old thing whereby certain people only want to play a game if they think they're bound to win? - you know the type, right? ... "yes, that is my ball ... must have got a lucky kick out of the trees! ... just a wedge from here, I'd have thought"
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You mean like just Gordon Brown and the general election !!!! We know the type only too well unfortunately ....
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I distinctly remember Thatcher ‘handbagging’ the EU and got a significant reduction in our contribution. Blair gave that away on the condition that the CAP would be reformed.
That has not happened but our contribution will increase by 60%.
River and sold down spring to mind.
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55. At 4:23pm on 17 Sep 2009, Gunota wrote:
#34. fairlyopenminded
"(Oh, and we tend to implement EU regulations more rapidly and far more rigorously than most!)"
This is a myth, when it comes to implementing EU directives UK is lagging behind compared to most of Europe.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
During a recent holiday in in Spain I was surprised to find a number of bars and restaurants were people were still smoking. Out of curiousity I asked why the smoking ban (which is meant to be Europe wide) wasn't being enforced. The answer given by the bar owner was 'That is an EU rule not a Spanish one'
A later conversation with a fellow traveller revealed that a similar attitude to some EU rules applies in Italy and Portugal too. Apparently they work on the principle of 'adopting' the rule but then cannot find legislative time to set up any mechanism to police or enforce it.
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#79. fairlyopenmind wrote
"I can only work on what I read in the press and find on EU sites. Maybe you can point me to a EU site that shows the timing of passing of laws/directives and their entry into local governments legislative status."
As you wish As you can see the UK is lagging behind when it comes to transposing (implementing) EU directives (laws) as I said it's not the worst on the list but it's position isn't exactly high either (below average at best) You can find a link to a detailed PDF here
Mind you this is just the Internal Market laws (not all EU laws), but it does give you an interesting insight.
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Just back on-line after a lightning strike (no NOT Post Office - meteorological!)so ...
Ref 23 Potkettle - Did you mean 'the irrelevant current Incumbent' (not 'encumbent') or ' the irrelevant current encumbrance'? The latter seems to fit! Either way I agree - he should go. Unless, of course, he changes his mind and lets us have a referendum before ratification!
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How much did the bank bailout cost the UK? £1,500,000,000,000
Baillout as a % of GDP
US = 25.8
UK = 94.4
Scary!
Perhaps Duff should borrow more money to add to the “Children, Young People and Families Grant (CYPF) programme” to ensure that our children’s children can pay it off!
Roll On 2010 - Nulabour are living on borrowed money and borrowed time.
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18. At 2:18pm on 17 Sep 2009, Fubar_Saunders wrote:
...........Watch out for that Irish pub in Schuman behind the EU building. 5 Euro's for Guinness for heavens sake. Its a rip off.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - --
If you're on an EU expense account who cares!!!
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The French said NO
The Dutch said NO
The Irish said NO
When asked to respect those democratic decisions.....
The EU said NO.
They will have their Empire
Ireland - tell them "NO means NO"
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56 Khrystlar
asked
"Are Tory supporters that un-confident of their chosen messiah's abilities that they're scared to see any stories about David Cameron on the BBC...?"
Clearly a resounding Yes!!
There's always the same outcry on this blog whenever a question on Tory Policy is posed, basically a mix of panic and synthetic outrage and demands for blogs only about Brown/Labour oh and not forgetting it proves beyond doubt that the BBC is biassed.
It seems a strange double standard that one thing the Tory Junta Flag wavers on here hate most is Labour evasiveness on answering questions but the same said people feel totally at ease with the same evasiveness from "Trust me Dave".
And its not just Dave of course....lest we forget his "deputy leader".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8080379.stm
You have to laugh I suppose.
What was it Dave said yesterday...something on the lines of (and I paraphrase) "What the Country needs now is openness and honesty...its called leadership"
errrmmm quite Dave
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83 Deanthe tory.
Has there been an invasion of the Body Snatchers at your house????
Credit where its due Dean... a good post IMO.
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Nick writes:
"En route to tonight's EU leaders' dinner, my mind turns to what it would be like if David Cameron were prime minister.
I am not the only one thinking about this".....
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.....because whilst I was sitting next to Lord Meddlesome sucking my pencil, he gave me a nudge and suggested we go off topic with a topical topic about Europe.
Pity I gave in because it seemed to me that leaked documents and Baroness Scotland were the order of the day.
Oh well, can't complain; we're all together on the same gravy train.
PS Serious question to Moderator: Is there a news blackout on the leaked budget documents? The reason I ask is becuase it's not being covered on any of the BBC media outlets.
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The European Court of Auditors has, for the 14th year running,refused to give a clean bill of health to the EU's spending.
Sounds like everything is tiketyboo in the EU.
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Yawn, yawn, yawnity, yawn.
Hey Dave (in my world DC is David Coulthard), it would seem that the country is coming out of recession and while I loathe the man I admire the way that the PM has dealt with the recession.
When I put my cross on the ballot paper next year it will be put against the candidate for the party that I believe will make the best job of sustaining that recovery.
I doubt that I will pick the party that seems to prefer bickering over Europe to one that has its eyes firmly on the economy.
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Under Brish parlimentry law NO GOVERNMENT CAN TIE THE HAND OF ITS SUCESSOR. so no excuses a referendum it is then.
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Nick, have I missed something here? Why are you talking about the Opposition Leader and the EU the day after we found out our PM and his Government (that's right - the one's in power at the moment!) misled Parliament and misled the country with his investment vs cuts mantra. What about Baroness Scotland and her illegal housekeeper, we could discuss that, given that she is likely to get off scot free when the ordinary small employer would probably go to jail.
You are a Political Editor at the BBC, you do not work for the Government, you work for us - the people who pay your wages through the licence fee.
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If that thing Nick said happened, I hope Cameron can keep people like Hague and redwood under control. Or firms like Nissan and Toyota will get fed up with petty little Englanders and move somewhere else less dillusional and stuck in the past.
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Despite what a number of people on this blog are saying, I do think that this is a suitable topic for discusion. If we are to believe that Mr Cameron will be the next PM then it seems only right to pontificate on how he might cope with some of the tricky situations that will crop up shortly after the next election.
Issues such as Lisbon will give him the opportunity to prove himself as a true leader, although it has to be said that he does not have a lot to live up to in order to look better than his potential predecessor.
It seems obvious that we will have the referendum so cruelly denied us by our current Government, if ratification has not taken place. Although this may not be necessary if the Irish are not bribed to change their previous vote.
If ratifition has taken place, this is where leadership will be required and decisions will have to be made. I think that Mr Cameron has said that he will not let the matter rest, which indicates that he has something in mind. If I had his ear, I would point to the fact that as a major contributor to Europe, he would hold in his hand a huge bargaining tool. He could claim the ratification to be undemocratic and withold our contribution until the treaty is re writen in a manner that the good people of Europe can understand and the issue put to a fair vote.
I am not necessarily against the European project but I do sincerely believe that federalisation has gone too far already and the project needs to be the subject of a significant rethink
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#73. At 5:41pm on 17 Sep 2009, Roll_On_2010 wrote:
"53 fairlyopenmind
Hope this helps. I posted this comment at the time."
Roll on,
Thanks. Just makes me weep, really.
I'm still waiting for the European Economic Community to be effective. I never thought it would mean that big nationalised (state-funded) companies would be allowed to mop up lots of private sector companies without the same level of financial backing.
OK, some of those national monoliths have been part privatised. But the buying spree started well befrore.
Just wonder whether any external body would be allowed to buy EdF or Deutsch Post. Well, I don't really, 'cos it just wouldn't happen!
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#88. Zydeco wrote:
"During a recent holiday in in Spain I was surprised to find a number of bars and restaurants were people were still smoking. Out of curiousity I asked why the smoking ban (which is meant to be Europe wide)"
Except the smoking ban is not an EU law. See? EU isn't even mentioned.
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strictly @ 86
you mean like just Gordon Brown and the general election !!!! We know the type only too well unfortunately
bullseye, you got me there! - but seriously, perhaps I didn't make my point very well ... what I mean is all the NO voters want a referendum only because they think they're bound to win it (which they are, let's face it) whereas the rather more discerning YES voters don't want a referendum, not because we know we'll lose ... which we would, let's face it ... but because we have a principled objection to referenda (ooo, Latin plural, aren't I the precious one?) generally speaking - a key difference, not always appreciated
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83. At 6:22pm on 17 Sep 2009, deanthetory wrote:
.....The Lisbon Treaty would increase the powers of the parliament in Brussels. Most importantly it will create a more workable framework of internal institutions, vital given the recent EU expansions to the east.
I fail to understand the hysteria concerning this Lisbon Treaty.
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The first sentence of the above paragraph is the reason people get hysterical about this treaty.
It should go on to say '..and take away yet more power from your elected Parliament rendering your Government even less effective'
Do you not understand that a lot of us do not want to be ruled by Brussels!!
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#98 alan_addison
Naw Alan reckon you should have stuck with you previous blog Bob The Builder. It made more sense.
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Whenever politicians get within sniffing distance of power they start to shuffle their feet in preparation of a quick U turn. I think that Dave's feet are itching. In which case it will be us that suffer. No matter who you vote for - the Government always get in!
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We all know what Cameron and the twits think about the EU and he will work very hard to get us out of it with the resultant unnecessary increase in unemployment... you see the current Tory leadership who were brought up in rich surroundings just have no clue as to what gives the rest of us employment they like to think you speak to Daddy and a suitable cheque arrives in the post ...well life is just not like that ..we need to be a committed EU supporter to gain the benefit for all the people and if the Tories start messing around with our membership it will add to all the other unemployment problems that a Tory government will cause Now Robinson that should be your agenda rather than blindly supporting your friend Cameron
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94 Eatonrifle wrote:
“There's always the same outcry on this blog whenever a question on Tory Policy is posed, basically a mix of panic and synthetic outrage and demands for blogs only about Brown/Labour oh and not forgetting it proves beyond doubt that the BBC is biassed.”
For the majority of cases I would say you are right, but in this instance I would have to argue against you. I’ve been quite a keen follower of Nick’s blogs over recent months but until today have never felt the need to comment. Primarily this is because as a relative youngster with limited experience of politics I have always felt there is nothing of particular worth I could add (though I note this has not always stopped others). I made an exception today though as I felt a certain degree of frustration at the subject of the blog, especially as it was the first in two days.
So much has happened since Nick’s last post, so surely you can understand mine and I’m sure others frustration that instead of these topics being covered we have hypothetical musings stemming from a politician avoiding a direct answer to a single question. Undoubtedly this is an important issue and will become more relevant with time, but to ignore other more pressing issues and news seems a bit strange. If Nick is to start blogging every time a Politician avoids a direct question then he’s really going to have his work cut out for him.
In this instance I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss people’s clear frustration as a form of Tory led outcry in response to questions on their policy. But then maybe this is just me being naive and is proof that I shouldn’t join in yet, who knows.
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Really there is no problem because DC will never be PM he is too vacuous and people will see right through him before the election ...so thats one solved ...next stupid question please
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Whats the chace of getting Andrew Marr or John Cole back to give us a balanced political view from the BBC all the current incumbents are so pro Tory it makes my stomach turn
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oldsitka is it Mike Naylor's day off?
As I have always said to those on the other side of the political divide. It doesn't matter whether you think that Nick is biased one way or another. Without the blog we would not have a platform on which to debate.
By the way, for those of you looking to comment on the leaked treasury papers, Stephanie Flanders has written on this on her blog. Although it seems that the participants are engaging in something of a slanging match and have gone off topic.
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104. At 8:27pm on 17 Sep 2009, Gunota wrote:
#88. Zydeco wrote:
"During a recent holiday in in Spain I was surprised to find a number of bars and restaurants were people were still smoking. Out of curiousity I asked why the smoking ban (which is meant to be Europe wide)"
Except the smoking ban is not an EU law. See? EU isn't even mentioned.
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Thanks for the correction Gunota. My comment was based on a BBC report from early 2007 copied below:
'The European Union's 27 member states are being urged to do more to turn Europe into a smoke-free zone.
Health Commissioner Markos Kyprianou raised the prospect of EU-wide legislation to achieve this goal, as he launched a public debate in Brussels.'
As a non smoker I hadn't followed this through so assumed it had now become law.
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72. At 5:41pm on 17 Sep 2009, uk_abz_scot wrote:
I expect Mr Cameron and Mr Osborne will be good Tories and
1) refuse to use trains to Brussels and instead go by boat (maybe loaned by Mr Osborne's friends)
2) Not talk to anyone except fringe parties from countries including one that a that a former Conservative Prime minister helped dismember!
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I think you will find that the yacht you allude to is the "Queen K" and is owned by Mr Mandelson's friend, Oleg Deripaska, you remember, the Russian oligarch and aluminium producer, when Mr Mandelson was responsible for cutting aluminium tariffs.
So, bit of an own goal for you there, I'm afraid!
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101. At 7:53pm on 17 Sep 2009, dhwilkinson wrote:
If that thing Nick said happened, I hope Cameron can keep people like Hague and redwood under control. Or firms like Nissan and Toyota will get fed up with petty little Englanders and move somewhere else less dillusional and stuck in the past.
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You mean like McDonalds, Kraft, Proctor & Gamble, Google, Electronic Arts, and Yahoo already have?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4534cacc-6f18-11de-9109-00144feabdc0.html
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Why are some people so convinced that if the Lisbon Treaty is ratified that it cannot be un-ratified? We are still I understad a Sovereign Country (or maybe if the Government changes), we can do what we wish, in the context of international treaties?
When will Nick comment on the activities of Baroness Scotland? If it had been a member of public, feet would not touch the ground, is this another example of 'One law for them, One for us?' There are a number of other such stories, why concentrate on Cameron?
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#110 MScEqualsNoJob
Welcome to the blog…this is as good as it gets.
The best way to learn is to join in. I feel sure that whatever you post somebody will have a pop at you.
Put some thought into what is said and either agree and add your own thoughts or disagree and respond with your own thoughts. The journey through life is a funny one but it can only be taken by making your first step.
You have just made your first step, think about your next one. Best of luck!
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The Tories are split over the EU and David Cameron dare not admit it in public. Half the party are anti-European little Englanders (The Thatcherite Wing) and half are pro European (The Heathite Wing). This division is a huge and unbridgeable chasm. The public know this and every time David Cameron side steps the issue we, the public notice and thing that this will damage the country if he should ever get into power.
I recall talking to Ted Heath before we joined the EC and he was quite aware of the split in the party. I see it as a reflection of the nature of the party - the libertarian wing is generally against all cooperation and pro only big business where as the one nation party(sorry wing) is more ambivalent seeing that cooperation with those who we have died in millions in (Tory inspired?) world wars is a reasonably good idea (and the like farm subsidies.) This is the Tory party.
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116 yellowbelly1959
American companies moving headquarters to a tax haven isn't really a suprise. Following the American Ideology of greed has contributed to our problems.
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120. At 10:48pm on 17 Sep 2009, dhwilkinson wrote:
116 yellowbelly1959
American companies moving headquarters to a tax haven isn't really a suprise. Following the American Ideology of greed has contributed to our problems.
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But Brown didn't have an idealogical dilemma about the tax take when times, and profits, were good.
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119. At 10:38pm on 17 Sep 2009, John_from_Hendon wrote:
The Tories are split over the EU and David Cameron dare not admit it in public. Half the party are anti-European little Englanders (The Thatcherite Wing) and half are pro European (The Heathite Wing).
----------------------------------------------------
You're quite right of course and it's for this very reason that a referendum, to once and for all clarify what the public want, must be held.
It wouldn't resolve the differences within the party but it would give a very clear indication of what we expect from those who represent us.
The matter of who runs our Country is too important to be left to the whims of a few politicians with their own agendas.
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#109
You mean to say that the people of this country should not be able to have a say when it comes to the great EU stitch up?
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Francis Bacon (artist) used to say that every brushstroke he made was a risk and every painting was formed from a multiplicity of choices.
Is this a metaphor for political leadership where decisions are based on imperfect knowledge?
Important leaders engage risk like an artist with a canvas, and some were indeed amateur artists like Mr.Churchill and Herr Hitler.It also helps to be deviant.Mr.Churchill was depressive and impulsive,Herr Hitler cold and depersonalized,Lloyd George a charming psychopath and Mrs. Thatcher had a Manichean view of the world which divided the British people into `us` and `them`
Lower ranking leaders are more like painters and decorators,they try to avoid risk and watch television in the evening.They tend to be removed by men in white coats.
Democracy is intended to provide the institutional control of elites,but the atomic revolution has reduced the role of legislatures in decision taking.This has been amplified by the role of the state in managing economic crisis which requires international cooperation in an age of globalization.
The EU uneasily straddles the old world of the nation state and the new realities.
This is the new age of the Caesers where legislatures and electorates have a mainly ritual significance on the margins of power.And leaders too are much diminished compared to the days of the autonomous nation state.
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Come on Gordon this is your chance to put a hole in the "Good Ship Cameron" and his alliance with the neo far-right of Europe. As for the UKs "Battle with Europe", I thought we had enough of that in the last century!! Let's act as one with our European brothers and sisters!!
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Would love to see these divisions in the Tory Party that John_from_Hendon alluded to, alas all dissenting voices in the party will be dealt with ruthlessly(a la Edward Macmillan_Scott) and is very similar in essence to the dissenting voice chucked out at a Labour Conference a few years ago. So the Tory Party is for the free market and right of the individual, but not of free thought!!
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Yellow...
"But Brown didn't have an idealogical dilemma about the tax take when times, and profits, were good."
Didn't He? how interesting!
________________________________________________________________________
Enough of defending Brown. Lets not dodge the issue of the Conservatives demanding a referendum to give the people a voice(to get what the eurosceptic/American fanatic wing of the party want as well as their new best pals Murdoch and son. Referendums are not the way to decide this issue. Its too emotional a few people will vote rationally in the current media atmosphere. The media is more interested in hearing polarised opinions on the street than informing us about the pros and cons of this document.
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To Nick Robinson:
I am very glad that you are commenting on this because the lack of a Euroblog on the BBC before the Irish referendum appears to me to be a disgrace.
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The Austrian Army will be part of "European Battle Groups" in the first half of 2011 and the second half of 2012. So that is Austria's neutrality flushed away. I don't believe that any guarantees given to the Irish about their neutrality will be honoured.
Guarantees given to the Brits by the "EU" and "EU"-lovers have been shown to be worthless.
German and British "EU"-lovers have told me that he UK has no right to leave the "EU" even if 100% of us want to.
I was in Germany during the Falklands war. Hardly any Germans were on the side of the Brits. If British people had been aware of the extent of German support for the Argentinians, I believe we would have left the "EU" then.
So we supposedly have no right to leave the "EU" and the Argentinians supposedly had the right to invade the Falklands.
Well how about this: I have an article in front of me about Austrian preparations for the "European Battle Group" thingy.
Austrians went to observe a European Battle Group exercise and guess what it was about:
It was about invading an island!
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127. At 11:35pm on 17 Sep 2009, dhwilkinson wrote:
" ... Lets not dodge the issue of the Conservatives demanding a referendum to give the people a voice(to get what the eurosceptic/American fanatic wing of the party want ..."
SB2: Being anti-"EU"/Lisbon is not about cuddling up to the Americans. If we are free of the "EU" we could be totally independent and even leave NATO* or join NAFTA, if they would have us. I personally favour trading the with the world under WTO rules initially.
"...Referendums are not the way to decide this issue. Its too emotional a few people will vote rationally in the current media atmosphere. ..."
You could apply that argument to any election. I have read hardly anything about Socrates, but is that not similar to the argument he used against democracy?
The trouble with elections is that "EU"-lovers are prepared to pretend to be anti-"EU" to get elected. I do know. I was in the room etc when I was in the Labour Party.
Some opponents of the "EU" appear to be prepared to vote pro-"EU" in return for favours.
* which I don't want to do.
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Cameron needs to deselect those Tory MPs who voted against us having an election. As long as he does not do that he will not get my vote.
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From Open Europe:
"With just weeks to go before the second Irish referendum on the Lisbon Treaty on 2 October, Open Europe hosted a lunchtime debate on the Lisbon Treaty in Dublin last week, called "Europeans for democracy". The discussion focussed on the detail of the Treaty, such as the implications for national parliaments, and the flexibility clause, which will allow the EU to extend its own competences.
British Labour MP Gisela Stuart, who was a member of the European Convention which drew up the Treaty, said that a basic test for democracy should be whether citizens can get rid of politicians, adding that "Lisbon does not give you, as a citizen, the means to control the executive or the politicians who decide on your behalf, and that's the hurdle it falls on in my view."
Gisela warned that "under Lisbon, there will be no more treaties, no more referendums anywhere" on EU integration, and noted that one of the big dangers of Lisbon is the bullying of the smaller countries by the big ones. She said: "The nature of democracy is truly at stake." Asked what would happen if Ireland votes 'No', she said: "We are dealing with an organisation which is very good at making rules but which is completely un-bound by rules itself".
Dr Jochen Bittner, Europe Correspondent for German newspaper Die Zeit, said that, with the Treaty, "sovereignty would be shifted from the people to the next higher level - the governments" and that "this is a major step, and one should discuss the wisdom of this step".
He said that proponents of the Treaty claim it will make the EU both more democratic and efficient, but said the two are not compatible, adding "You simply cannot argue that the Lisbon Treaty makes the EU both efficient and democratic." Noting that China is "very quick at decision-making...because it is a dictatorship", he added that "politicians should be so honest to say that we have a choice between more efficiency or old-fashioned democracy as we are used to. I think that would be the right question to ask."
Other speakers included Svetla Kostadinova, Executive Director of the Institute for Market Economics in Bulgaria; Eline van den Broek, a Dutch journalist and political scientist; Roland Vaubel, Professor of Economics at the University of Mannheim; and Swedish political consultant Erik Lakomaa. The event was chaired by Bruce Arnold, political columnist at the Irish Independent.
To read a transcript of the event, please click here:
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
..."
So it isn't just Brits who are critical of the "EU"
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# 61. DistantTraveller
Perfecto DT. Exactly the legal case against our being bound to Lisbon until a UK referendum result is known, for or against.
Gordon Brown was exceeding his authority (and he knew it) that December afternoon when he signed the treaty... hence his furtive, solitary and late signature.
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I actually think that "EU"-lovers should want the Irish to vote "NO".
If the Irish vote "YES" and the rotten thing comes into force then people like me will not accept the right of the "EU" to exist and there will be continual trouble. There might eventually be an armed uprising. I am not saying that I want one. I want non-violent resistance unless the fascism underlying the "EU" really comes out and "Eurokorp" turns into the SS of the Fourth Reich and the "European Gendarmes" become its Gestapo.
A possible parallel:
I have read in a history book that the Czechs in the Austrian Army only started revolting towards the end of WWI. Stories told to me by a half-Czech lady living in the UK paint a different picture.
This lady told me that one of her relatives, an ethnic Czech, was a cook in a Czech regiment of the "Austrian Army" in WWI. Early on in the war he had difficulties with Czech farmers not wanting to sell him their produce. On one occasion he ended up sitting with a farmer and his wife in their kitchen and said: "It's like this: I want to buy the pigs and I have the money here. You can sell me the pigs and get the money. If you refuse to sell me the pigs, my men will come and take them anyway and you will get nothing." Note that they were not haggling for a better price. They wanted to undermine the state of which they did not want to be part. Other Czech farmers, I have been told, slaughtered their pigs and hid them so that the "Austrian Army" would not get them. The "Austrian Army" got adept at finding them.
So "EU"-lovers! Expect nothing but trouble if the illegitimate Lisbon Treay is forced on us Brits and others who do not want it!
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119. At 10:38pm on 17 Sep 2009, John_from_Hendon wrote:
"The Tories are split over the EU and David Cameron dare not admit it in public. Half the party are anti-European little Englanders (The Thatcherite Wing) and half are pro European (The Heathite Wing). ..."
I doubt if it is half and half. Only three Tory MPs voted against us having the referendum which we were promised and to which we are entitled.
I believe that the Single Transferable Vote system at any election would/might solve this problem. It is at least worth giving it a try and you don't have to hate the "EU" like I do in order to believe in a different voting system.
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119. At 10:38pm on 17 Sep 2009, John_from_Hendon wrote:
The Tories are split over the EU and David Cameron dare not admit it in public. Half the party are anti-European little Englanders (The Thatcherite Wing) and half are pro European (The Heathite Wing).
---
Your right, as a Heathite moderate (pro-eu) I hate it every time we buddy up to those Polish and Cezch extremists.
MacMillan-Scott is right, he ought not be made the scape-goat.
Despite what some say on this blog (I choose to ignore them), I believe in the EU project, to promote peace, prosperity and greater inter-dependence through trade, harmonisation of immigration control etc.
I cannot stand leaving the EPP-ED, it was the worst mistake Cameron ever made; but it seems the anti-eu nutters need constant appeasement (like spoilt children).
I say this, if any of them actually read through the documentation relating to the outcomes from Lisbon Treaty reform they would understand that it isn't the demon they create!
Greater power to Brussels parliament, to promote suprranational coordinination on environmental, immigration and economic issues (which are globalised now anyway!). Not to mention the other benefits; of course there are issues (no resolution over fisheries or CAP) but the benefits make Lisbon DESIRABLE- NO MATTER WHAT THE EUROB&ST&*DS SAY!
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119. At 10:38pm on 17 Sep 2009, John_from_Hendon wrote:
" ...
I recall talking to Ted Heath before we joined the EC and he was quite aware of the split in the party. I see it as a reflection of the nature of the party - the libertarian wing is generally against all cooperation and pro only big business where as the one nation party(sorry wing) is more ambivalent seeing that cooperation with those who we have died in millions in (Tory inspired?) world wars is a reasonably good idea (and the like farm subsidies.) This is the Tory party. ..."
So the two World Wars were the fault of the Tories??????
I have never voted Tory in my life but JfH's claim is just ridiculous.
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135. At 01:51am on 18 Sep 2009, SuffolkBoy2
"I doubt if it is half and half. Only three Tory MPs voted against us"
You are odious! If you are in my party, please leave! Thatcher, europhobes are actively undermining British interests IN EUROPE.
It may come as news to you, but those three men are more honourable, honest and morally decent that the bulk of you nutters. (If I could I'd use Majors word to describe YOU)
Dean
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#133 TallyHo
"Gordon Brown was exceeding his authority (and he knew it) that December afternoon when he signed the treaty... hence his furtive, solitary and late signature."
I think the question of 'exceeding his authority' is crucial to this case.
Imagine you applied for a job, and then after you got it, it turns out everything you said at the interview was false! You would probably be fired as soon as it came to light. Why doesn't the same apply to MPs?
If politicians are elected on a manifesto which contains specific pledges which are later simply ignored, then this means they have been elected under false pretences, Frankly that is an Election Fraud.
It isn't good enough that we can boot them out several years later; by then, the damage has been done. What we need is a mechanism to ensure that MPs who deliberately and wilfully break a manifesto pledge are barred from holding public office ever again.
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#136 deanthetory
You say "I believe in the EU project, to promote peace, prosperity and greater inter-dependence through trade, harmonisation of immigration control etc."
You are of course entitled to your opinion, but why do you describe people who don't agree with you as "nutters" or "EUROB&ST&*DS".
One of the problems with the Lisbon Treaty is that we the public have not been told the truth.
3 countries have already said 'no', so they make a few cosmetic changes and they tell us we don't need a referendum after all. (Roll_on_2010 sets this out very well at #73). We have been lied to!
Another problem is that unelected commissioners and officials wield an awful lot of power, and unlike politicians, we can't get rid of them if we don't like what they are doing.
Like you, I also want to see "peace, prosperity and greater inter-dependence through trade, harmonisation of immigration control". But where we differ is that I don't think this treaty is actually going to deliver these things. The fact that we are being denied the referendum we were specifically promised illustrates how this whole process has become totally anti-democratic.
Those people who don't want a referendum seem to think voters should not have any say - and believe our political masters should be given a free hand beacuse they know what's best for us.
But as we know, and were reminded by yellowbelly, the European Minister (and probably most other MPs) hadn't even read it!!!!
You must be very trusting if you think these people know what they are doing!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"...Greater power to Brussels parliament, to promote suprranational coordinination on environmental, immigration and economic issues (which are globalised now anyway!). Not to mention the other benefits; of course there are issues (no resolution over fisheries or CAP) but the benefits make Lisbon DESIRABLE- NO MATTER WHAT THE EUROB&ST&*DS SAY!"
i could not DISAGREE more!
most of the legislation that is imposed on us from the EU, was already in place but is not being enforced by those that should
benefits? lisbon treaty is desirable?
this is a joke yes?
87 laws passing from westminster (who WE vote in and out of office) to Europe - of which, more than 2/3rds of the laws already exist in some kind here in the UK, but are not being enforced!
i was assured i would be able to get my say on this policy, but i was refused when brown did a complete u-turn and refused a referrendum on ths issue.
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Zydeco wrote
"A later conversation with a fellow traveller revealed that a similar attitude to some EU rules applies in Italy and Portugal too. Apparently they work on the principle of 'adopting' the rule but then cannot find legislative time to set up any mechanism to police or enforce it".
Re EU rules, I live in Greece and the Greek attitude is to, virtually, ignore EU directives. Virtually none of the, so called, EU intregation policies are put into practise.
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David Cameron is committed to holding a referendum on the treaty.
Gordon Brown was committed to that in the last election manifesto. Look what happened there!
As far as Brown is concerned: he will know by now that his days are numbered and by relying on Peter 'spin king' Mandelson to be the face of the government as much as he has in the last few weeks he has weakened his already untenable position.
Does anyone actually think that Brown & co wouldn't fire a parting shot at a new Tory government and ratify the treaty in the last few weeks of the current parliament, just out of a petty spite or to make it deliberately hard on the Tories, with no thought whatsoever of the will of the British people?
I wouldn't put it past them.
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#137. SuffolkBoy2 wrote:
"So the two World Wars were the fault of the Tories??????"
I did put a question mark after my initial statement....
However consider this:
The Tories and similar right wing parties in Europe (as it takes two(or more) to war) have always tended to support the ideas of lebensraum/heimat or Little England and/or crackpot ideas of racial purity (in Suffolk! - nearly Normal for Norfolk -medical term) than the left and these belligerent foreigner hating ideas (such as the ones that you so openly espouse) do increase the likelihood of war so I stick to the point that I made.
Please do not respond 'ah but Stalin/Russia' - but consider which side of the political spectrum has 'internationals' and which side tries its best to live with and cooperate with its neighbours - this certainly is not a description of your far right politics or the British Tory Party except for the notable exception of the late Edward Heath who represented the party when the one national wing of the party was in ascendant (as I suspect does David Cameron at heart.)
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Those who are denied the right of expression through the ballot, will turn to the alternative of expression by the bullet.
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130 Suffolk boy 2
"SB2: Being anti-"EU"/Lisbon is not about cuddling up to the Americans. If we are free of the "EU" we could be totally independent and even leave NATO* or join NAFTA, if they would have us. I personally favour trading the with the world under WTO rules initially."
I understand that, but I'm talking about the Conservative party. Some are pro European and some seem to want us to move closer to the U.S. Which got us into the economic mess in the first place.*
"{me}...Referendums are not the way to decide this issue. Its too emotional a few people will vote rationally in the current media atmosphere. ..."
SB2:You could apply that arguement to any election. I have read hardly anything about Socrates, but is that not similar to the argument he used against democracy?
This Island nation and former empire is a little too resistant to Jonny foreigner. General elections are taken More seriously(notice I say 'More seriously). The likes of Murdoch & Son don't help any rational debate either.
* Ps Before any of you tories start your mantra about brown again. My view is that it was collective stupidity on the part of the Anglo/American economies, governments and even the public.
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Cameron has to walk something of a tightrope. Europe is not the emotive issue it was because the quality of British politics is now so poor. People see the Germans and the French doing rather better than ourselves on the economic front. Success for the Germans on the GM sale of Opel worries car workers here as the future of Vauxhall looks uncertain. The pound is now worth a lot less than it once was against the euro. Public opinion has moved forward to worries about debt and cuts and jobs.By the time of the General Election Europe could look a much happier place than the UK. Cameron will be haunted by Haig's calamtous 'Save the Pound' campaign. If he is not he should be.
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147#
Just Britain and America though, dh?
Nobody else?
Might that make it less of a "worldwide economic downturn that started in America that we are best placed to handle"?
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149
The Reagan/T*******R economic Model as well as deregulation in the US which inspired us to do the same. Lead to a problem. The biggest economic power followed by the UK the made a big mistake and the world suffered the consequences. Maybe we should have the self confidence to be part of another economic power, in the form of Europe?
Its just an opinion of course not as clued up as many are on these blogs about this subject. Like I say though we shouldn't allow this blog to fill up with Brown hating mantra and Browns defence. When these good people want to discuss the Conservatives serious problems with different factions in the party about Europe.
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@149 dhwilkinson
Thatcher!
Thatcher!
Thatcher!
Don't just leave it to the New Labour Lovies to try and airbrush Lady Thatcher out of history, have a go yourself!
But whatever you do, remember these two things: Firstly, by saying her name three times just now (as in the film Beetlejuice) that means that the Conservatives are coming back to power! And secondly (though I hardly need point this out to someone such as you) please, if you are going to childishly censor someone's name, please have the intelligence to put the right number of asterisks in the name!
D'oh!
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138. At 02:06am on 18 Sep 2009, deanthetory wrote:
135. At 01:51am on 18 Sep 2009, SuffolkBoy2
"I doubt if it is half and half. Only three Tory MPs voted against us"
You are odious! If you are in my party, please leave! Thatcher, europhobes are actively undermining British interests IN EUROPE.
It may come as news to you, but those three men are more honourable, honest and morally decent that the bulk of you nutters. (If I could I'd use Majors word to describe YOU)
Dean
===
Dean, whenb did you take over ownership of the Tory Party?
Your hate-filled bile does nothing to further your argument or attract support. In fact, with your ad hominem attacks you appear to be more of a closet NuLabour supporter, with such an MO.
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151
oops!
It doesn't really matter though does it? Quite IRONIC that you should say that I'm trying to airbrush that woman out of history when I do that because people keep complaining that I mention her.
Its all a bit trivial though this asterisk counting stuff. When you consider we could end up with Cameron as PM of the Conservative party of London and the south east of England. In a huge majority government isolating ourselves from the rest of the world with their small minded little England Mentality.
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I'm surprised at you, dhwilkinson!
Surely you must appreciate the ability to count?
How about this: "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 9.3%! 9.3 percent of lovely public sector cuts! HAA haa haa haa haaaaa!"
Even the puppet from Sesame Street can count better than Gordon Brown, who looked at those numebrs and either lied through his teeth to parliament, or actively believes that those numbers add up to "Labour Investment".
Oh, and I'm sure all the Conservaive councils and MPs in the Midlands and the North just love you after you so summarily dismissed them in your post. Well done.
Bakk to you, old boy.....
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Sack them all. The eurosceptics are like Tribune was in the labour party. There is a party for them and it's called UKIP. They don't join it because they are without honour.
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There are 2 very important reasons why the Conservative Party and leader should come clean on this issue as with so many others:
1 It is improper for a party and its candidates to seek election without disclosing what they would wish to do in Government. The imperative to make their policies clear applies most of all to those parties which appear to have victory in sight. Smaller parties can perhaps be allowed some leeway on this as they have less money to spend on research and are denied access to civil servants.
2 If a referendum is not in the manifesto of the winning party the HoL might decide to reject any proposition put to them by a new government. Similarly with other policies where a left of centre Europhile and very PC HoL might not want to pass the necessary legislation.
It is not only after election and not only on the EU that Dave faces a much more hostile time than I think he can handle.
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