Brown will take part in debates
"I've decided in my own mind," Gordon Brown told Jim Naughtie on the Today programme this morning.
He was talking about whether to take part in television debates.
So it is now clear. He's going to do it. We just have to wait to see when he'll get round to telling us - and in exactly what format these will take place and when they'll begin, assuming all the other hurdles can be cleared.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~36~RS~)
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Nick is this really the biggest non-story of the day?
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Oh dear! Why does he not just fade gracefully?
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Forget the debates - why not hold an general election and let the people express their views?
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'Brown will take part in debates'.
Thats todays announcement though, plenty of time for U-turn before anything is finalised.
Actually, if i was gordon and given todays news about the Sun, i'd tell murdoch to stick his debate.
Think about it, how can SKY possibly run a fair debate, when another arm the same media organisation has openly declared support for the tories?
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Yeah Nick get the debate one here YOU ARE THE BRITISH CORPERATION?
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What other 'hurdles'? Sounds like a cop-out clause. If the GE is to be next year, then it's way too early to be talking about debates (maybe Brown is hoping we will all forget about debates by then). Or is an election about to be called? I sincerely hope so. I have always voted Conservative, I hate the socialist agenda, and crave for a return to free enterprise and less state intrusion in my life.
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So what and dont hold your breath. GB would be better deployed crafting a succession plan - preferably before the next general election. If he is not minded to go then perhaps he could look at all the New Labour policies and replace them with Real Labour policies.
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Will he go up against X Factor and Strictly in the ultimate ratings battle?
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So all three paties now want debates - what do you want to bet they never come about?
I'd guess they will make a big fuss about wanting to have these debates, but in the end refuse to accept the other parties conditions and everyone will blame each other for the fact the debate never took place.
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"So it is now clear. He's going to do it. We just have to wait to see when he'll get round to telling us - and in exactly what format these will take place and when they'll begin"
Indeed Nick. A mouthwatering prospect.
So long as they're not in the same format as the current PMQ's, with a chairperson who is not going to allow obfuscation from any of the participants, it should make for interesting, albeit car crash, TV.
"We just have to wait to see when he'll get round to telling us..."
Yes... brings a scene to mind.....
"Now, where did I see that long grass? Ah, yes. ++HOOF!++ There. That'll do it. Hello? Is that the G20 Recruitment Desk? Aren't you looking to recruit your first paid Secretary General? Yes, I'd like to apply. My name? Brown. James Gordon Brown. Can you send me an application form please?"
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And will the BNP get a part in this Punch and Judy show? It could have the part of the crocodile, that should please the biased BBC.
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This is all part of the carefully calculated politic spin. But it still reflect well on Brown to have live debates.
I have this nagging feeling that the Mr. Hobson who pull the strings behind our political parties and politicians are putting on an entertaining show of the horses he will let us choose, or not.
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Same story as yesterday from yesterdays man......
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"So it is now clear. He's going to do it. We just have to wait to see when he'll get round to telling us"
Nick, I am afraid you are wrong.
Brown has now taken to lying to himself!
He thinks he will do it (he has made the decision in his own mind), but he won't tell anyone otherwise plans could start to be made. Then he will not be able to back out at the last moment saying nobody could agree on a format.
He knows that he plans to do that too, but is convincing himself he won't.
He should read a book on Courage.
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Well at least that's settled then.
Perhaps when Gorodn Brown appears on the live TV debate he can address the issues he chose top ignore yesterday despite being on his feet for an hour.
How is it physically possible to go in increasing public spending faster than economic growth?
Why was there a complete failure yesterday to tackle the goverment's fiscal crisis that has arisen from growing publice spending faster than economic growth for the past eight years?
Why were all of the new spending announcements yeasterday uncosted?
These three questions go to the heart of the lie that is newlabour; that newlabour have found a way to spend money when the tories can't seem to find where the secret money pit lies.
Where was the reform of the public sector that is so badly needed?
Where is the action on public sector pensions to bring them down into line with the private sector?
Who came up with the lies about crime?
Gordon Brown and newlabour are now utterly fdetermined to lie their way into even whatever result they can achieve. Never mind the national finances; never mind the savres, never mind the workers; just carry on spoon feeding the needy and workshy.
Call an election
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Can we believe him, there is not a great deal he says that can be believed. Will he in fact be around to take part in debates,as the gap now widens between Labour and the Conservatives his chances of remaining as Labour leader diminish.
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Won't happen Nick. These are last, desperate throws of the dice by Brown, but regardless, I am firmly convinced he won't lead Labour into the next election. Doesn't mean a televised debate won't happen - it just won't be with Brown. That said, it would be fun watching Brown trying to duck and weave his way through such an event!
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At 0734, Brown said on Sky News, "Put to him that he couldn’t make up his mind about participating in a TV debate he said: “Nothing about not making up my mind. There is a time for that, and it is not now." By 0903, Gordon has,"decided in my own mind". So what has happened in the intervening 149 minutes to change his mind? Gordon Brown dithering? Perish the thought!
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So thats clear then Nick. Why then, when ask in an interview with Sky this morning would he not answer the question? Nothing new there I know but why not just confirm he is going to take part? The longer he leaves it the more of a story it becomes.
Perhaps more relevant would be for you to ask where all the money is coming from to create this new heathcare system. Or the homes for pregnant mums.
Perhaps in his "dream for the future" you dont need money!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
4#
"Actually, if i was gordon and given todays news about the Sun, i'd tell murdoch to stick his debate."
Pretty much what he does already in the HoC at PMQ's every week to the rest of electorate and his fellow elected members...
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If it goes ahead I suspect I will be looking at a rerun of Nixon circa 1959 on one of his good days. I was reasonably old then, so the prospect of Brown and his jaw-dropping antics means I will have to spend the time while he is on watching re-runs of Monk.
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8#
Good idea, Brucie can do all the tired old jokes, Ben Bradshaw can take the part of Craig Revell-Horwood, Jack Straw can pretend to be Len and Lord Minky finally gets his dream to be a contestant!! Dunno quite what Louis Walsh would do yet.... Not sure I want to contemplate that actually...
Add to using Simon Cowell as the chairperson - now theres someone who wouldnt put up with any flim-flam - the only dodgy bit is who would you trust to add up the public votes, as both BBC and ITV have had their wrists slapped in the past for er... irregularities?
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Nick,
It ain`t going to happen - always read the fine print with Gordon. If you were in charge of the election campaign would you want to put Gordon up in front of the cameras? His hizzy fit this morning was bad enough (see Evening Standard) so imagine what his temper will be like in a few months time. Just showing Brown on tele is bad enough nowadays - imagine what a live debate will do to NuLabours election chances. His wife would do a better job than him - then anyway anyone probably would!
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He has decided in his own mind. But has decided not to tell us what that decision is.
Wow. More positive, straight from the shoulder, tell it is how it is, decisive thinking there then!
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Oh I hope it happens, Brown will look even more useless than he is already,i bet he will get a right old pasting.
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I stick by what I said last time ... Mortimax will be the one trying to find ways out of it ... watch this space
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Further evidence of his inability to communicate in any simple and direct manner, or answer the simplest question put to him in a straightforward manner.
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Don't we already have a TV debate with Question time. This is a non news item. I assume with recent Sun events Webcameron will want the debate on Sky (to say thank you to Osborne's mate).
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Perhaps NR can shed some light, or ask the TV debaters to shed some light on Gordon Brown's claims yesterday that newlabour would beat cancer but the tories wouldn't?
Alos, perhaps Gordon Brown could tell us why they are holding back on curing cancer when medics and drug companies would be shouting from the roof tops if they had cured cancer; why is Gordon Brown keeping it for himself rather than telling everybody?
This was newlabour hyperbole at its finest; it's okay to ignore the facts if it 'plays well'. I suspect it's playing rather badly with all the cancer patients in the UK this morning who, if they had the strength, would be calling 10 Downing Street immediately to get the answer.
Call an election.
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This TV debate is absolutely pointless unless ther are strict rules in place i.e :-
No lying
No evading the question
No getting the hump and walking out
No talking over each other
Get my drift?
It won't happen and if it does it wil be no different to PMQ's and that has been rubbish all year.
The problem is ALL these people cannot do any of the above. I personally don't think a lot of what people dislike in politics is policy. It's the people. I think this country could do with real people to run the country, not the breed of person that currently does and that goes for all parties. When I see MP's, meet MP's and watch them on the TV I often ask myself whether I'm the odd one but I soon realise that i'm not. It's them. I do't know where they come from, how they were brought up or what actually happened to them when they were younger but I shudder when I see them to think these people are actually in charge of our great country. Get rid of them and get the normal people in.
People who CAN do all of the above.....
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There should, and will, be a debate on each of the main terrestrial networks, the BBC, ITV and Sky. There may even be one to compensate Channel 4/Five. In all there will be three, or possibly even four debates. Brown will not agree to one, and only from the Murdoch Machine at that. He will want to wipe the floor habitually with Cameron and Clegg, and probably sees it as a key tranche of his strategy to successfully close the gap to the Tories.
I stand by my comment yesterday. This is an amazing blunder by the Tories. Even if they are confident that they have a man with more charisma and appeal, what we can learn from years of debates in America is that voters more often than not see them as unconvincing, and actually draw the candidates together to the extent that "thay are all as bad as each other."
Brown will argue successfully that there should be at least three debates to compensate all networks, perhaps even four, and Cameron will flounder across all 3/4 debates, getting worse and desperate as each passes. This is the nature of having limited experience, no detailed policies, no apparent conviction and no track record to point to. Brown can point to all of that and a record of acting decisively during the financial crisis. An economic turnaround in time for next June might just close the gap to the point where the Tories could lose their seemingly unassailable position. However then again, old Middle English prejudices could die hard and they'll opt from the upper crust Man from Eton as he is more in tune with everyday life.
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"So it is now clear. He is going to do it"
Nonsense. It is not clear at all. Brown has said he has decided in his own mind but not said what he has decided. He is just as likely to have decided in his own mind (is it possible to decide in someone else's mind?)not to take part in TV debates.
And why is this not the time to say what he has decided? The only logical conclusion is that he has either not made a decision or wants to be able to change his mind without admitting to it. If he does not say what he has decided now then he can say anything in the future and claim it is what was in his mind all along. Shades of the 2007 election that never was!
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I reckon he'll get Sarah to cover for him. She know all the lines, including my favourite: "He goes to bed at night, and he gets up in the morning..."
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any debate is only meaningful if the participants are honest and tell the truth. Any discussion is meaningless if one person say "We will do X, Y and Z" when they have no intention of doing that (e.g. "We will have a referendum on the EU Constitution" and then the just don't).
For one party, experience has taught the British people not to trust what their leader says. He may say it thinking he means it but when it comes to it, it just does not happen.
Similar, those participating need a clear knowledge of what actually happened in the past and not to start claiming that black is white and e.g. "I always wanted tighter regulation of the banks" (despite many recorded quotes of him boasting about "light touch regulation".
With such a Jeckle and Hype participant I cannot see how any debates could be meaningful - but they might give us all a good laugh and some more classic comments (e.g. a 0% increase).
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It was a good speech that has been kept on the front pages by The Sun story. Now this debate question will keep the attention on Labour. All the economic news is now going Labour's way. The VAT cut was such a good idea that business is asking for more, the scrapage deal is being extended and what are the Tories offering a tax cut on inheritance tax for the rich.
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Its not getting him to do a debate its getting a meaningful answer out of them thats the problem, and then when they give the answer they will change it at a later date......non event for many thats for sure.
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Does anyone really believe Brown?
I have made up my mind but I won't tell anyone yet sounds to me like a stalling tactic.
If you are going to take part in the debates why not tell people? Not telling anyone his decision just makes it look like he hasn't made one yet and plays into the hands of the Tories who accuse him of being a ditherer who can't make a decision about anything. The problem for Brown that if he decides not to do the debates he will look like a coward who is afraid to face Cameron and Clegg in an open debate.
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Let's put aside opinions about Brown's personality and focus on the main issue that will be debated.
At the moment Brown does not have a consistent line on reducing the national debt.
All through the summer Brown ran the Tory cuts v Labour investment line, though this was directly contradicted by the Budget small print (cuts in spending of nearly 10%).
Then recently Brown seemed to be moving away from this position, only to have raved about further Labour spending in his Conference speech (whilst being careful to make few concrete proposals).
Clegg (yes, he's the leader of the LibDems) is also all over the place with his mixture of savage spending cuts, uncosted tax cuts, and doubts on various spending policies such as tuition fees.
The Conservatives have not yet pronounced on the scale and nature of the coming cuts. So we can watch their conference to see if futher light is shone.
P.S. Sagamix. Thanks for your kind words in the previous post. Definitely my favourite Labour blogger. GSOH and all that. You will be pleased to hear that most of 'The Sun' is now at the bottom of my rabbit hutch, but I've kept the political pages to quote on a rainy Sunday afternoon.
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Nick,
the trouble is stuff like this new 'Foyer' scheme which is going to place young girls in supervised accomodation, a new idea. The trouble is that there are hundreds of these already up and running, with the partnership of the Guinness Trust. We have one down here in the Bradshaw consituency of Exeter.
I am not saying whther they are a good idea or a bad idea, what I do say is that it is funded by charity, by local residents through their local taxes, and also by central government. These are not a new idea, they will or will not be in the manifesto, they already exist. Not a new idea, neither is the National Care service.
What you have to do is to look at the Department of Health eligibility criteria 'Fair access to Care services'. I am looking forward the conservative conference next week, I think that they will confirm that the changes to Inheritance Tax will not form part of their manifesto, it is not a u-turn, it is the fact that as Brown so loves to point out this is a new situation. Also let us not forget the changes which labour has made to the IHT rules, they have lost billions because of those changes. Same with the 10p tax rate, the poor have suffered the most.
Also the link for pensions to wages is not acceptable, I do not know peoples wages, I do not trust the statistics, even then wages are falling, prices are rising for pensioners, yet what will be the increase in state pensions this year. We need to understand that the RPI does not reflect the real situation, prices for pensioners are not falling. So, I want to hear a proper debate on pensions.
Finally, I really cannot understand how anybody can have worked so hard in their life that they have actually earnt any pension in excess of GBP50,000, their must be a limit, and any pension over the aforementioned sum should be heavily taxed.
I want to hear about the abolition of National Insurance, that it should be merged with Income Tax, no allowances, one flat rate tax. Now that would be fair, that would be equal.
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Brilliant, maybe you can get trinny and susannah to comment on what they're wearing. One of the thousands of psychology graduates who want to be on telly from BBC 3 to discuss body language. Maybe the BBC can campaign for a Saturday night gameshow next?
What I think would be far more useful would be to gather members of cabinet and shadow cabinets for a televised mass debating event to argue out the way forward for Britain. Although maybe not.
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Lets not get bogged down, Have John Barrowman has the host and question master. Then afterwards the loser on a phone vote can go on to Hole in the Wall.
For me there are no alternatives that shine out, only in a bad light.
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Nick,
Brown will not debate. He will make the conditions so ridiculous that no reasonable person would accept them- questions known in advance/him to speak last each time etc. It’s not going to happen and I’m a bit surprised you think it will. I can only guess that you’ve been told off the record it will in which case I would ask you to remember the press conference when Brown stated he’d had no plans to replace the chancellor, when you and your colleagues know full well he had.
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Hmm, that's all I need: a mass debate of politicians on my screen.
But tell me, why on television? They have these debates in Parliament every day?
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#40
"Also the link for pensions to wages is not acceptable, I do not know peoples wages, I do not trust the statistics, even then wages are falling, prices are rising for pensioners, yet what will be the increase in state pensions this year. We need to understand that the RPI does not reflect the real situation, prices for pensioners are not falling. So, I want to hear a proper debate on pensions."
Fully agree and perhaps there should be a 3rd index for pensioners reflecting just how they spend their money. Most are forced to spend it on just food, energy and the seriously unfair Council Tax, with perhaps a luxury thrown in here and there. They don't buy iphones and other gadgetry every week, nor clothes at the same rate as a working person. I'd like to see this debated properly.
Likewise it's high time the Council Tax was reformed on a fairer basis. In our street we have two people living side by side, a pensioner on about £100/wk (£5200 pa) and a doctor who pulls in about £130,000 pa. They pay the same Council Tax. Hardly fair on the less well-off. Will they debate that?
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He has decided in his own mind, but won't tell anyone else until...?
I think that you put too kind a spin upon proceedings Nick
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Chairperson??
There is only one person I want to see....
Bring on Clarkson!
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Highly amused at sagamix's (27) desperate effort to plant the "Mortimax" seed, yet again. Does childish name-calling really benefit Labour? I don't think so. And then as well, the concept that it will be Cameron who ends up being the one trying to duck out of the debates. Wrong there, I think.
Actually, I heard the interview with Brown, and I came to the opposite conclusion from Nick. These debates risk being car-crash TV for Brown, and the only way he can recover from the damage they will do him is to have them early. Likewise, he would have just a smidgen of a chance of portraying Cameron as light on policy if the debates were to happen before the Tories have produced their manifesto. Once the manifesto has come out, however, I suspect the moment will have been lost.
Brown indeed said he had made his mind up, but he would not reveal the answer yet. I think he is just playing for time while his advisors think up a credible excuse. Brown may also have half an eye on the tactic that while the Tories think there may be a debate, then they will be devoting at least some resource to planning their part in it - which will then be wasted when it emerges that the debate, in fact, will not happen.
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#44
Congratulations on getting those words past the moderators. Very funny.
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45. At 12:01pm on 30 Sep 2009, atrisse wrote:
.......Likewise it's high time the Council Tax was reformed on a fairer basis. In our street we have two people living side by side, a pensioner on about £100/wk (£5200 pa) and a doctor who pulls in about £130,000 pa. They pay the same Council Tax. Hardly fair on the less well-off. Will they debate that?
*****************************
There was a system like that once upon a time. It was called Poll Tax.
The populace rioted to get rid of it.
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44. At 11:51am on 30 Sep 2009, atrisse wrote:
Hmm, that's all I need: a mass debate of politicians on my screen.
Mass debate - is that the new group name for MPs? I can think of a much shorter equivalent....
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I'd like to commend James Naughtie on his interview this morning. I usually compare him unfavourably with the Humphries and the Davies, as he has been too close to Labour in the past. He was very good this morning. Of course he didn't get all the answers that he wanted - specifics, I mean - but it was pretty good!
I agree with other posters: I don't know what is in Mr Brown's mind. But Nick seems very sure, so I assume that he had some off-the-record briefing. I wish the whole electorate was in this cosy Westminster/Conference circle of knowledge.
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its simples
go election
no need for a debate then
work it out
a state of emergency will be declared first by N10
The glorious leader will have to take full control as the state we
are in. unless
the forces and MI5/MI6 are ploting a coup just like the late 70s'.
to get rid of this shambles
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Having lost the support of the Sun tabloid, Brown now needs even more to get into the media and appear on TV as often as possible to defend his policies and long-term achievments. Some fellow commentators will no doubt now jump up and down and ask 'What achievements'? In this case, just listen to yesterday's speech of Gordon Brown. Why did Brown loose the support of the 'Sun'? Hmmmm. Why could that be?
Because in-depth analysis of political history and global financial systems has convinced its readers that it is time for change? Clearly not, as most 'Sun' readers prefer to be entertained and tranquilised by booze, boobs and football. There is nothing new under the sun since Roman times. Give the plebs bread and games and keep them quiet whilst a corrupt elite runs away with the wealth of nations. This is the society that Rupert and James Murdoch want as long as it fills their bank accounts. No wonder that James Murdoch joins George Osborne to promote Osborne as the new Sheriff of Nottingham.
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#36 The VAT cut was such a good idea that business is asking for more, the scrapage deal is being extended and what are the Tories offering a tax cut on inheritance tax for the rich
The scraggage deal is creating jobs for overseas manufacture and dedt in this country.
VAT cut is causing spending of much overseas stuff piling on more debt
for UK plc as a loss in revenue's. when he should have been cutting expenditure.
and not creating any jobs in the UK as unemployement is still rising.
how about polciy to stop single parents coming about, treat the cause rather than the systems
This was all about buying a false dawn recovery to win an election and save One mans job, rather than tackling the REAL issues.
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I do hope Brown actually goes ahead with this. Not everyone watches PMQs every week so they probably have no idea about how poor Brown is when put on the spot. He spins, obfuscates, misleads, lies, regurgitates tractor production figures and takes cheap shots at the tories. In short, he doesn't "debate" in any true sense of the word at all.
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Not the first and undoubtedly not the last: is this what we pay you for Mr Robinson, to tittle tattle on about nothing.
Let's hark go back to the old days when senior politicians were given some respect by journalists and if some uppity hack failed to appreciate his station in life, politicians felt free physically to attack said journalist. This is a system I would like to see.
Now, I am not a violent person and I have lost much of my respect for our politicians but I have lost even more respect for our journalists. Ream after ream and byte after byte of meaningless tripe churned out day after day.
The outcome is that the G20 convenes and all that these hacks can think about was whether the PM was snubbed. Tell me, how can this be the main story of the day given the issues facing the G20?
I understand the PM was asked about his health by another BBC journalist over the weekend in spite of the fact that when No 10 agreed to the interview this topic was banned. That's not to say I agree with censorship. Rather, the health of any individual is the sole concern of that individual. It is written into the doctor and patient relationship. Thousands of people, I think, have refused or would like to refuse, to have their medical records kept in a central database in order to protect their privacy.
So who is some hack who feels he has the right to ask a downright impertinent question that is none of his or our business?
When the next election arrives I fear that the quality of debate is going to be set by these people and the PR people who are over populating the Tory Party. New Labour Spin? We ain't see NOTHIN' yet. We're all dooomed I'm afraid. Then the worse PM ever will get into No 10. Who will we blame then?
Duncan
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Judging by his speech a the conference, Brown seems to have rediscovered the traditional values of the Labour Party. It is a pity that this has come only after 12 years of wasted opportunity, and maybe it is only happening now because he realises that it is the only way to fire up party members to work in the coming election campaign, but penitent sinners should always be welcomed.
Gordon has formidable debating skills, and it must be a good idea to have him putting the center left case on TV. Apart from occasional appearances by stalwarts like Tony Benn and Ken Livingstone, this case has hardly been heard in recent years and has been overwhelmed by the right wing outpourings of the popular press.
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#40 TAG
What annoys me about pensions is that everyone seems to be moaning about the final salary pension being economically non-viable.
Just because some companies did not put any money into their pension funds while their shares were up and are now left with a huge hole to fill, why should ordinary working people (who fulfilled their side of the bargain) suffer?
I believe Tesco still has a final salary scheme so IMO other companies only have pathetic excuses as to why their pensions are 'expensive'. In the dog eat dog world of capitalism these companies should be left to the dogs of receivership!
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Labour has 217 days left in power.
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I just listened to the interview with James Naughtie. GB must think that this kind of behaviour makes him look inscrutable, but it merely reinforces his reputation as a ditherer, bottler and somebody incapable of giving a straight answer to a very straightforward question. Would you buy a (re)used manifesto off this man?
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Oh dear, the most important matter in politics is whether the Prime Minister will take part in a debate on TV? How has it come to this?
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Funny thing is that I really don't like the idea of "head to head TV debates" in an election run-up.
This is NOT the USA or France, or any place that elects a President.
We - as UK voters - are supposed to select candidates and probably parties who we think could represent us fairly well. It is entirely possible (though very unlikely) that the leader of a party that achieves power to be turfed out of his/her role as MP by a local constituency.
In theory, each week that Parliament sits, there is the chance for debate at PMQs. IF we ever had a Speaker who would simply say "Answer the question", the pancake make up, TV studio nonsense wouldn't even be relevant.
Typically, a Cabinet is made up of elected representatives chosen at random by a PM. Recently, we have more and more unelected dead-beats "placed" in a so-called-reformed (?) House of Lords, to take major roles in public lfe with absolutely NO scrutiny of their suitability, competence, or dedication to national - rather than tribal - values.
At least in the USA every appointee to a senior role is subjected to examination by the people's representatives before assuming office. Anybody asked OUR representatives to judge or consider whether a disgraced MP should be pulled out of the EU to become Lord Mandy or all-over-the-place? Nah. Because New Labour "reformed" political life.
Towards what exactly? Cheap. Tawdry. Newsbite, bad law, no delivery.
The old dying days of the Tories was based on individuals being caught out doing things that are now considered quite normal for politicians. (Like stuff the mods wouldn't allow, but have probably read about.)
Self-delusion is a pre-requisite for every body alive. "I could do this or that if I make a bit of effort..." sort of stuff. Sometimes it results and works.
It keeps people alive.
Mostly people who spend their OWN money and invest their own efforts, rather than saying "There's got to be a bloke or gal out there who knows far more about me than I do, so I should let him/her spray my money around without actually bothering to check if it goes where I don't want it to go".
Just sick of this "hero". But thanks for stuffing up my pension. Guess if Brown goes back to live in Scotland, he'll get better treatment than he would do in England.
A promise is interesting. An intent is fun. DELIVERY should not mean that millions of poorer people have to scrabble around to find a tax-credit or elusive benefit to make up for the money they had in the first place.
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mr perry @ 48
does childish name calling really benefit Labour?
hello JR! - thing is I sometimes make serious points in a trivial way - kind of the opposite to you, if you see what I mean
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Oh dear. You would have thought that he would have learnt from his you-tube debacle. Who on earth are Gordon Brown's media advisers? Have they lost the common-sense gene? I almost feel sorry for Gordon as he flays desperately after his white whale.
I do wish the politicians would refrain from telling us that they are going to win elections. It is up to us, the voters, not them. A bit of humility please, or they will end up on the same sinking flotsam as Neil Kinnock.
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Given the man does not know how to say sorry I can't see a great deal of honest debate leading to new insights in the political choices.
Was Iraq the great idea Blair thought? Should they in retrospect not have muzzled the FSA and allowed them instead to fully investigate "perfectly respectable banks"? 10p? Was the fact that the economic crisis nearly took us all out in fact a reason for deep concern and not self congratulation because it didn't?
Therefore he is almost certainly going to treat the nation to "professional politician" skills that will include stonewalling, stonewalling and stonewalling whilst he hopes Cameron makes a big mistake.
He does not see that only some party activists will be impressed.
Therefore not only does the attitude to cuts show he puts party interest over national interest but now he also does not understand the depth of discontent with politicians. They could have been more specific about what was going to be CUT as in practice it may not have any immediate impact on restraining the recovery - the excuse offered for pretending there will be no cuts.
A pure AV system won't handle the distortions of first past the post so other parties cannot come forward as an alternative home for a meaningful protest vote in most seats.
A cosmetic TV debate that is only happening because of his dire polls won't reinvigorate the political process.
Perhaps ironically though it will start a new and useful tradition.
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For him to say he's 'decided in his own mind' can effortlessly be interpreted as deflecting the question too, with no guarantees either way. Perhaps he has just decided to remain undecided?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
In project management this game is called 'schedule chicken'. Everybody keeps on saying "yes, they will do it / be ready" while fervently hoping someone else will be the first to dodge and admit they won't / can't.
It gets really interesting when nobody flinches. Of course, they could all agree to say the don't want to do it - but what are the chances of that...?
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57. At 12:51pm on 30 Sep 2009, duncanwil wrote:
..... When the next election arrives I fear that the quality of debate is going to be set by these people and the PR people who are over populating the Tory Party. New Labour Spin? We ain't see NOTHIN' yet. We're all dooomed I'm afraid. Then the worse PM ever will get into No 10. Who will we blame then?
Duncan
================
Why would people blame Duncan?
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Gordon is an irrelevance.
It would be better to see a debate between Cameron, Clegg, Nigel Farrage and Nick Griffin.
Also Brown would only tell lies - we already get those at PMQ's. It is time to no platform Gordon.
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'Brown will take part in debates'.
Wow ! the country is in crisis and this is NEWS ??? Does anyone really care ?
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59#
Thats only part of the story.
The other part was Gordon and Geoffrey Robinson's rape of the pension funds in 1997. You conveniently forget that.
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Is the post-it notr with 'take part in debate' in the same pile as the one marked 'hold a referendum on the EU'?
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He is just leaving options open.
If something goes really well for labour or something goes really bad for the others, Brown will be jumping up and down, insisting on an immediate debate... If things roll on as they are, he won't go anywhere near a live debate...
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Hi Nick,
I have not read the Sun for an awful long time. What I will say is that I followed a link on another blogger and found the Sun. What I will say is that the pictures referred to by Harriet Harman are in fact very tasteful. I cannot tell a lie, I actually do think that women of all ages and sizes are attractive to the eye. I prefer women with whom I can have a good discussion, same with men, but I will never say that the looks of anybody make me like or dislike them. It is about the whole person. I have never in my whole life actually bought a copy of the Sun, I am male and sixty. I have however looked at the pictures however, I would say that I have also looked at pictures of women in their lingerie in the various catalogues which my mother ordered from in past years. This is despite the advice of some of my teachers who said that I should not even look at the pictures on the posters outside of cinemas advertising x rated films in the sixties. Yes it was catholic school run by christian brothers. I suppose that explains an awful lot.
I will finish by saying that I would love to have a conversation with Harriet but I would not wish to see her in her underwear. Was it not Ms Harman who said something along the lines that if she were to be PM then many men would leave the country! Be afraid guys, very afraid, we may well to start packing our bags.
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If the 'quantative easing' borrowing had put (say) £100 billion into UK based research into cancer it could have really been worth while... Instead Brown has p*ssed it up the wall just like he has the other billions...
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Nick
Unfortunately the level of debate I fear will be very negative especially from Labour. Example is the nastiness of the comments made by Harriet Harman this morning. Her comments were based around the normal Labour tactic of if they don't support us then we attack and the speech was hateful.
The way the Labour spin machine gets to work is distasteful and they will happily engage in hateful e-mail even from the inner sanctums of No10. It was good in one respect they did get caught and that one person paid with their job. But the tendency has not gone away.
I made an observation in a previous blog about how a person cannot choose that they are born in to a wealthy family or the colour they are born. If a person makes any comments about their colour then they are racist and that is abhorrent. It is also abhorrent when the nastiness is directed at a person because of their background or the school their parents chose for them as a child they had little or no choice. It is the current and future actions of that person that they should be judged on not their upbringing or race.
Maybe someone from the Labour supporting side can explain what the difference is as a baby cannot choose the background or the colour they are born with? So why is it ok to mention that they come from a wealthy background? I cannot see the difference personally as they had no choice before they were born.
Unfortunately the Labour Party are introducing hateful comment that they push as debate and a number of comments have been made this week at their conference.
I hope that the Conservatives have a positive message next week and that the chasm that exists between the negative hateful comment from Labour and positive comment focussing on actual issues from the Conservatives.
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PeterinDerby
In your eulogy at 36 of Gordon Brown's speech and recent initiatives you mentioned the word scrapage. I couldnt have summed up the past twelve years of New Labour better. It was indeed a scrap age, and now we need a new infill site to dump all the memories of their time in office. Incidentally, if they do decide to dump him themselves, will they look for some recompense in a cash for clunkers scheme?
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41. dhwilkinson
Nice one dh.
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Mods, how is the following "off topic" please?
"Subject:
Brown will take part in debates
Posting:
Does Derren Brown know about you and your psychic powers?
He said he'd made his mind, such as it is, up, but not what that decision was. You, with deep insightfulness, can tell us this.
Does this mean, in line with current processing, that previous threads will be closed off?
Do you think that changing the topic to something anodyne will staunch the flow of anti-Brown and anti-government postings ?
Maybe you could post another thread, outlining your thoughts."
The title of this thread is "Brown will take part in debates", yet what he is reported as saying is that he has made up his mind about it, which isn't exactly the same thing, is it? When I was taught English it wasn't, but time and educational standards might have moved on.
Anyway, in what way is this original posting off topic?
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When you press the red button to get the trinny and susannah commentary. They could discuss which brand of self tan Cameron uses. I think its Ronseal.
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"atrisse wrote:
Hmm, that's all I need: a mass debate of politicians on my screen.
But tell me, why on television? They have these debates in Parliament every day?"
Some of us are hoping that Brown will actually have to answer the questions in a proper debate, rather then dodging the issue.
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I hope he remembers it isn't PMQs and answers questions rather than give lectures... wonder how long the string will be between him and Mandelson.
I certainly won't be marking a cross in Radio Times, Browny has had his chance... what they can do in 11 years they won't be able to do in the next 4 - they've blew it so bring on the next in line to try.
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"Zydeco wrote:
45. At 12:01pm on 30 Sep 2009, atrisse wrote:
.......Likewise it's high time the Council Tax was reformed on a fairer basis. In our street we have two people living side by side, a pensioner on about £100/wk (£5200 pa) and a doctor who pulls in about £130,000 pa. They pay the same Council Tax. Hardly fair on the less well-off. Will they debate that?
*****************************
There was a system like that once upon a time. It was called Poll Tax.
The populace rioted to get rid of it."
I thought the Poll Tax was based on number of people living at an address rather than their income.
And why should council tax be based on income? I am sure we already had taxes that were based on income, I think they are called "Income tax" and "National Insurance"
Council tax is a tax to pay for services provided by the local council - the pensioner and the Doctor both have access to the same services (or the pensioner might have access to even more services if some are OAP only) so why should one pay more than the other?
I pay 75% of what the retired couple next door pay, however because they are retired they get discounts on many local council services (so on a per person basis I already pay more for less!)
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Bottler Brown lost the plot twice this morning under pressure on TV.
If he goes ahead with debates, then we sould be able to see just what an arrogant, evasive bully he is. Out-take shows will have miles of footage for years to come.
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Best to put them on Question Time,before an audience,
than grasping a lecturn,reciting prepared answers !!
Dull television !! Remember sweaty Nixon !!
Another idea. Parliament is not used Friday afternoons.
Let Brown/Cameron/Clegg address the house for 15mins
each and then each be subjected to 45mins questioning!!
Trouble is they will not agree to Umpire Bercow in the chair !!
Suggestions on the back of the last political paper !!
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#39 JohnHarris
You say that the Conservatives have not yet pronounced on the scale and nature of the coming cuts and that we should watch their conference to see if futher light is shone.
Surely, Dave will continue to churn out supposedly progressive ideas until the election. I don't think he'll show his cards.
Look at Europe, him and Hague have formed that dreadful right wing 'we shall fight 'em on the beaches coalition' and hopes that his anti-gay, anti-semitic Polish friends will filibuster for long enough for us to have a vote even though we've agreed to Lisbon.
If they don't, well, errrrrr, that's a bit vague. He should spell out his plans.
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He didn't say whether he'd decided positively or negatively though Nick. I doubt he is going to do it, especially if the economy is still in recession, which it more than likely will be.
I listened to the whole interview and his speech yesterday. Where was the bit about we all must work together and get through this and for that reason we are going to stop wasting money here or here? It was all still spend spend spend.
I asked a question on the Politics show last year about where the belt tightening was going to be and Jon Sopel kindly put it to Darling, tragically they have not been able to put their answer forward and refuse still to do so.
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Don't really need debates, all he has to do is answer the questions at PMQ's which is something he has failed to do since he was co-opted as prime (lower case) minister.Is there any reason to suppose he'll answer questions in a televised debate ? I doubt it, he has no answers either to the country's or to his own increasingly obvious problems.
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"I've decided in my own mind,"
That quote says it all with emphasis on the words "in my own mind".
I'm sure many things happen in his own mind. However, I thought this news had already been covered yesterday. Aren't you falling behind a bit here Nick.
Also what kind of response is that anyway, very vague and open to interpretation while not directly addressing the issue or answering the question in any way. Sounds exactly like old politics in the supposed new era of New Labour. So it's back to Business as usual in the Spin Department but then again, Gordon would rather us focus on the issue of will he debate or not rather than on the real issues because I think the public have seen him go about the real issues for years, except for the fact that they're only the real issues in his own mind.
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Brown will take part in debates.
Brown will reform the HofL.
Brown will introduce a referendum on AV.
Brown will make cuts in the public service.
But not now.....
.....it will all happen after the next GE so these decisions will be taken away from him.
PS BTW did anyone see that reference to GB as a haggis in the Sun?
It was just offal.
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If Sky run a debate:
1. They should broadcast it free to air, and make sure its also on one of the TV networks that use their news service (Five)
2. ITV should also run one.
3. The BBC should also run one.
If we're going to take this ridiculous US notion on, then we should be fair and make sure all broadcasters host one each in a series of debates.
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Had to tune in the digital changes and flipped onto the Labour Party Conference. Wish I hadn't. What a downbeat, offbeat, strange rebellious lot of speakers - like going to gin lane and beer street a la Hogarth. A vile man with a horses tail on his head, a neuter gender studenty studded creature, an old bat with smoker's voice, a militant woman from Liverpool. All with huge chips on their shoulders. All trying to rubbish the Tories. How sad.
The room is only half full and it is clear they are a party which is just about shunting into the sidings to rust for years.
Oh, the agony. Oh, the shame of Britain with this lot trying to pull the strings and oil the wheels. The light at the end of their tunnel is another train coming straight at them.
No, take them away. Please..............................Labour is kaput.
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It may be fortunate for the Labour Party that a huge tsunami has taken pride of place in the news
My thoughts are with those people
Brown just needs to name the date now
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I'm no great Gordon Brown supporter, as previous comments I've made here will testify, but I don't blame him for not wanting to be bullied or rail-roaded into agreeing to to a 'public debate' on Sky news because their agenda is to undermine him on Rupert Murdoch's orders. I'm surprised you're leaping on the bandwagon, Nick.
The media have really got it in for him. When Brown accused Adam Bolton of politicking himself over 'the great debate' this morning, Bolton put on a pseudo-innocent expression as if he would never think of something so underhanded. Who do you think you're kidding, Mr Bolton?
Sian Williams so-called interview with Brown on BBC also this morning consisted of her arguing and interrupting everything Brown said. I couldn't believe what I was watching and had to switch over as she was irritating me so much. I thought an interview was meant to consist of asking questions, allowing someone to answer and letting the viewers make up their own mind.
I think the vitriol being shown by the media, not forgetting the pre-prepared attack by the Sun before Brown even spoke could very well backfire and garner support for the Labour party. For the first time in years I'm thinking of voting Labour because I don't want a media-elected government by those who have their own reasons for wanting the Tories back in power.
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89. extremesense
"...even though we've agreed to Lisbon."
We have??
83. dhwilkinson
You're on a roll today, dh.
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#79
uncivil-civilservant
I totally agree with you that for many of the spokespeople for the Labour party and 'independent' guests I hear on the BBC (5live in particular) it appears to be perfectly acceptable to label whole groups of people on the basis of their parents' wealth or the paper they read.
I disagree with a lot I read in the Guardian, Independent, Mirror etc but wouldn't dream of making the lazy, bigoted comments I hear some of those on the 'left' make about all Sun and Daily Mail readers.
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Nick you might want to ask him at this debate why the £0.5 billion from efficiency savings in the NHS from back room waste to fund 'carparking' and yet to be decided, at what level personal care, (which I suspect is going to be funded from the government stopping care allowances for all of the disabled as proposed in its recent work and benefits bills), was not got back before now to reduce our national debt over the last 12 years. I suspect an answer to this debate and other questions will contain the well known phrases, 'smoke' and 'mirrors' with Lord Mandy playing David Copperfield or Darren Brown in the background.
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Did the Sun newspaper have some kind of revelation when it went to print last night with the headline 'Labour's lost it'.
Gordon Brown certainly lost it went he flew into a temper with Adam Boulton on a news interview this morning and then got up before Sian Lloyd had chance to interview him.
'Operation Fightback' seems to be been still born just like every other Gordon Brown relaunch has been still born.
What kind of debate would ensue with this kind of snappy, aggressive, defensive attitude; what kind of defensive, snappy, aggressive Prime Minster does this coutry have? how long are we prepared to put up with the indignity of having this bad tempered and ill mannered 'hero' in charge of the country?
Is it too much to ask for someone in the labour party to wake up and see how much long term damage they are inflicting on themselves and how every day is now an opportunity for Gordon Brown to make matters worse?
Call an elevtion for pity's sake. It's embarrassing to go on like this.
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I guess it has been the constant stream of truly daft, ill-conceived, badly drafted and awfully applied legislation that has been unleashed since 1997 that really irritates me.
Like a couple of friends being considered as requiring "licenses" to look after each others' children.
Rediculous. If you leave children with a grandparent, you must be gaining a "benefit/reward" because you can go to work. Should that mean the Grannie should have a criminal records check? Or what? Why not?
Maybe if Blair had tried to practice the law for a few years, he'd have bumped up against the practicalities of interpretation, rather than the joy of getting useless junk drafted and imposed that even the judges now say is overwhelmingly impossible to keep up with and try to intepret.
I see no reason why I or my children should support 13/14/15 year old girls who have babies (or their older mothers who breed for fun - or because it's a "right").
That, by the way, is a very left-of-centre view as expressed by the Chinese communist party. A right wing view would be "if you choose it and you can afford it, with or without parental help, that's fine". There are, quite rightly, always moral arguments about the sanctity of life. Brown seems to be saying that young girls should be taken away from their parents and put into some "state controlled" environment. Sounds too much like an old Eastern European Communist approach for me to swallow. Not too happy that Social Care actually delivers.
Of course, sometimes things get obscured. Fidel Castro seems to have a large litter of children. Guess who pays for them?
There are no lines drawn now. PCs used to give a kid a clip around the ear for minor offences. Their parents would have done the same thing once they found out. Now you can't even restrain - or even admonish -a child without being accused of brutality. Even if you are a teacher in locus parentis. Madness.
Spending my children's money on ever more rediculous legislative matters to unwind stuff that this mob has put in place? Why? Why do they have to pay to unwind a bunch of complete nonsense that Brown and Blair unleashed on the nation?
All that light-touch-regulation that Brown boasted about, but created a toothless, laryngeally challenged watchdog to look after? Couldn't bite. Didn't even bark.
If it was wrong to start with, why wasn't it killed at birth? Like the nonsensical 24 hour drinking stuff? Just who thought that would "solve" excessive drinking? I have never met anyone who thought it was a reasonable idea. I don't like stepping over/around drunk girls on the street. But IF I ever touched them, the risk is that I could be accused of molesting or other offences. It was never like that some years ago.
The "Mother of Parliaments" seems to have delivered so many bad, back-of-a-fag-packet, unenforceable and counter-productive laws and constitutional changes over the past decade that it may be time to have it subjected to a mandatory (though possibly reversible) hysterectomy.
I'd be happy if the next parliament simply said "We will get rid of any laws, whether local or EU created, that just messes up normal life". Not likely, when a previous PM hopes to be the "President of Europe". And a government believing that laws equal results in a social or economic or practical framework.
Why will we have a Supreme Court, when the judges who will sit there don't truly understand the extent of their competence? Because New Labour - rather the unproven barrister TB - dreamt up a clever wheeze. It's going to come back and bite the backside of Parliament within 2 years.
Just as the Scottish devolution has never been resolved. House of Lords is still a mess and even more a politician's plaything than ever before.
And the guy who dreamt this up is swanning around the world, rustling up cash on the basis of him being what exactly? War leader? Economic miracle deliverer? (Sorry, I guess it was Gordon who abolished boom and bust, so not me guv. Odd that he joined a bank - or just predictable?)
Brown witters on about a low-carbon economy. A carbon-capture coal fired power station was supposed to start building next year. Not decided yet if or where it will be developed (of course). Government "investment" in UK low carbon/low emission production? Anyone know where that went? I can't find it.
I realy, really don't like the government of my nation treating people like idiots. And pretending they have money to spend when they don't. And making/forcing my children to hock their futures because politicians could not be bothered to keep an eye on the cash-flow.
And saying that "normal day-to-day spend" is "investment".
Come on folks. Go back and read Animal Farm. Even worse, re-check where Big Brother came from. I have been in places where you always knew that some government freak was watching whatever you did. Even they backed away from time to time.
Brown acts and talks like a guy with a mission to ensure that the State manages normal lives. Micro-management. Intrusive. Horrible.
Most of us make mistakes every day. At least I do. But my mistakes affect few people. I just don't want or need some bloke or girl (with little experience of making money in a real sell-it-to-somebody world) telling me and mine what we are allowed to do with our lives and cash.
Take away the thousands of pages of tax laws and unknown offences. Tell the EU to back off and worry about how they can balance their budget books to an auditors' satisfaction, for a few years.
Get real.
Debate? I got fed up with PMQs because there were no answers. Why would I or anyone get an insight after all these years?
It's not a debate we need. Just forensic examination of why so much tax has been wasted on rediculous projects.
Ed Balls says he could find two billion from the Education budget. 2,000,000,000 pounds. Take a look folks. Check out how much you are likely to earn over a lifetime.
Wonder how we - you and me, tax-payers - have been spending 2 BILLION too much for years? Because Westminster knew there was money coming in, so a bit of spray here and there could possibly win a few votes. Sick.
Consider that the odd 2BIL here or there doesn't mean a lot to Ministers, especially Gordon who works at a "global level", as the pound sinks even faster than when John Major had his problems.
It's very fine to have a social conscience. I have one of those, honed over the years. Most of my life I've tried to exercise it in a very local environment. Never saw much benefit from some remote politico or apparatchik burying into my life.
I hate it when people tell me that there are these or those legallly acceptable ways to "claim" money. And people who live off "law suits" because of some anti-this or that bias.
Life's a struggle. Always has been.
Taking money away from poorer people is not a way to solve it. 10p tax-break? Good idea. Really liked it. Removed by? Taxing people on a "minimum wage" working a 40 hour week because they still fall within the lowest taxable limit? How does that make "social sense" if a minimum wage implies that's what you need to survive?
Imposing a tax-change on private pensions? Didn't like it. Not a bit.
The Great Leader (Brown) considered that pension funds (which of course don't exist for public sector employees, who are coonstantly topped up from direct annual taxes) were in substantial credit.
And the Great Leader believed that companies would somehow top up the short-fall by creating bigger dividends.
Great Leader? Led by the nose by the stupid (but clever) bloke who offered in a speech written for Gordon Brown to give to an economics conference, he used the phrase "post neoclassical endogenous growth theory", which was picked up on and gleefully recounted later by Michael Heseltine, who coined the humorous quip: "There you have it! The final proof. Labour's brand new, shining, modernists' economic dream. But it's not Brown's - it's Balls".
How true.
Post neoclassical cr*p theory, I could buy.
As long as the sellers just went away to the houses we helped pay for.
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#72 jonathan_cook
"It would be better to see a debate between Cameron, Clegg, Nigel Farrage and Nick Griffin."
Great idea if you add the SNP's Salmond and PC's Jones. Better still, the broadcasters could agree now with all the other party leaders and simply invite Duff Gordon to attend.
If he doesn't turn up, they can simply follow HIGNFY's Hattersly precedent of an empty seat and a tub of lard.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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97#
Its your vote Bryan, you can waste it on whoever you like....
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#89 extremesense
Sorry you didn't like my moderate, and consensual, contribution.
Labour's detail (the Budget, 9.7% across the board deductions) admits cuts, but Brown's rhetoric (Conference speech and PMQs) denies it.
The LibDems promise cuts and spending simultaneously (no surprise there, then), but as Conference decides the manifesto no one knows what there policy is.
Conservatives seem genuine on the need for cuts. They have told us that the NHS and International Development budgets will be maintained, but every other department will be cut by 10%.
I find the Conservative position more authentic, but it is still short of detail. On reflection, Conservative Party Conference is not the place to do it. They should wait until after the Labour Pre-Budget Report, or Comprehensive Spending Review, or whatever (can't keep up, since Labour spokespeople keep changing their minds). The Government have access to thousands of highly-paid tax-payer funded Treasury civil servants. Let's see what they come up with in the next few months and respond accordingly.
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#97 Bryanjames
I'm not sure that you can accuse the BBC of wanting to help the tories back into power. That seems like turkeys voting for Christmas to me.
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106. At 3:49pm on 30 Sep 2009, CockedDice wrote:
#97 Bryanjames
I'm not sure that you can accuse the BBC of wanting to help the tories back into power. That seems like turkeys voting for Christmas to me.
---
Oh, I don't know - labour did a pretty sound job of emasculating the BBC over Hutton.
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Fubar_Saunders wrote: "Its your vote Bryan, you can waste it on whoever you like...."
Having voted Tory (Thatcher - first time voter, give women a chance, etc), Labour (Disillusioned, etc), Lib Dem (where are they now, etc?), Green (who they, etc?) I feel I'm running out of options to waste it on any party.
I wonder why we still have any hope in our politicians? Is it like wife-beating syndrome - the beater is sorry and promises never to do it again but always does?
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Would not bet on it with this ditherer! Still you are easily fooled as usual Nick.
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I know this is a little of topic but Nick do you have any idea what Gordon's plans are to hijack the news from the Conservatives conference this year?
A trip to Afghanistan maybe? Or perhaps he'll just run around naked on the white house lawn and hope the US president is in the photos.
Or maybe he'll just announce an election!
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@102
I can not fault your recollection or your logic. 100% agree with everything. Here Here
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97. At 3:16pm on 30 Sep 2009, bryanjames wrote:
I'm no great Gordon Brown supporter, as previous comments I've made here will testify, but I don't blame him for not wanting to be bullied or rail-roaded into agreeing to to a 'public debate' on Sky news
The media have really got it in for him.
***********************************************
And do you ask why the media have got it in for him?
The public don't want him. Most of his colleagues don't him. He is bringing our Country to it's knees and then lower still. He's obsessed with power and just cannot admit he is anything but the only person who can run the Country.
He will not listen to anybody. Even his own conscience appears to have given up. He cannot be challenged. He is im-mortal!
That's why the media have got it in for him. Eventually he must be made to return to the world of reality.
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#86 Mark_WE
"And why should council tax be based on income? I am sure we already had taxes that were based on income, I think they are called "Income tax" and "National Insurance"
Council tax is a tax to pay for services provided by the local council - the pensioner and the Doctor both have access to the same services (or the pensioner might have access to even more services if some are OAP only) so why should one pay more than the other?"
Simply because that would align it with income tax. It could be incorporated as part of income tax if a government were honest enough to pay it to the local authority (note, I use the subjunctive because that's unlikely). Income tax is about funding services on the basis of your earnings. Why not Council Tax also.
It needs debating. The Lib Dems once proposed it though seem to have forgotten it.
Having access to services doesn't come into it. I pay income tax to cover many services I'm unlikely to access.
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@110
Or maybe he'll just continue going to bed at night and getting up in the morning (makes him seem so human, don't you think?).
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No110 Sweet,
Surely you do not believe that an outstanding political journalist would waste his time reading the trash written on here? Do you think it is time for individuals to hold a qualification in political fundamentals before being allowed to vote?
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Why doesn't he just be straightforward and say he will participate in the debate? Strange bloke our prime minister!
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#74 Fubar
No, my comments @59 are just some inconvenient truths you don't like!
And if I remember rightly, Brown and Robinson's so called 'rape' (your term) of pensions affected pension payouts and not the viabilty of employer final salary pensions pars se.
So you accept then that public sector workers are not to blame for having final salary pensions, nor are they greedy?
It is the greedy company directors who 'raped' their own staffs' pension pots that are to blame. Companies that get rid of their final salary scheme because they claim they can't afford it should be made bankrupt.
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27. At 10:57am on 30 Sep 2009, sagamix wrote:
I stick by what I said last time ... Mortimax will be the one trying to find ways out of it ... watch this space
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Except you don't stick by what you said previously, or the Mortimax tag wouldn't appear in your post.
Back on topic, Brown hasn't actually said he will participate, he has said he has made up his mind. That's all. Gives him wriggle room to bottle it as he undoubtedly will. "I never actually said I would take part" he will plead.
It seems as though he really is cracking up judging from his TV performances today, so Andrew Marr was right to question him on how rude his health was.
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32. At 11:15am on 30 Sep 2009, EdenRooms wrote:
...I stand by my comment yesterday. This is an amazing blunder by the Tories. Even if they are confident that they have a man with more charisma and appeal, what we can learn from years of debates in America is that voters more often than not see them as unconvincing, and actually draw the candidates together to the extent that "thay are all as bad as each other."
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Yes,it worked a treat for McCain in the USA, didn't it, against the unconvincing Obama?
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36. At 11:21am on 30 Sep 2009, PeterinDerby wrote:
It was a good speech that has been kept on the front pages by The Sun story. Now this debate question will keep the attention on Labour. All the economic news is now going Labour's way. The VAT cut was such a good idea that business is asking for more, the scrapage deal is being extended and what are the Tories offering a tax cut on inheritance tax for the rich.
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That would be why Labour are now trailing in 3rd place in the polls, behind the LibDems!
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115. At 4:38pm on 30 Sep 2009, braveSouter wrote:
No110 Sweet,
Surely you do not believe that an outstanding political journalist would waste his time reading the trash written on here? Do you think it is time for individuals to hold a qualification in political fundamentals before being allowed to vote?
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It would be nice to think that nick occasionally read the responses to his outpourings, and he occasionally has commented (I think). As to your second question, I have absolutely no idea why you are asking it.
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59. At 12:54pm on 30 Sep 2009, dceilar wrote:
#40 TAG
What annoys me about pensions is that everyone seems to be moaning about the final salary pension being economically non-viable.
Just because some companies did not put any money into their pension funds while their shares were up and are now left with a huge hole to fill, why should ordinary working people (who fulfilled their side of the bargain) suffer?
I believe Tesco still has a final salary scheme so IMO other companies only have pathetic excuses as to why their pensions are 'expensive'. In the dog eat dog world of capitalism these companies should be left to the dogs of receivership!
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So you are advocating putting Royal Mail into administration, are you? Who will deliver your post?
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"atrisse wrote:
Simply because that would align it with income tax. It could be incorporated as part of income tax if a government were honest enough to pay it to the local authority (note, I use the subjunctive because that's unlikely). Income tax is about funding services on the basis of your earnings. Why not Council Tax also."
My point is why does it need to be aligned with income tax? Putting aside the obvious flaw in a local income tax i.e. would you pay based on where you live OR where you work? I seriously doubt that I am the only person in the country who has to commute to another council area for my job. If council tax is paid to the local authority at work level I will end up paying for services I would virtually never use.
However, if council tax is calculated based on the home address it would add an extra layer of complexity to the whole tax system (with associated costs to companies)
Another flaw with local income tax is it is based on income i.e. the Doctor and Pensioner in your example might have different incomes but what about their assets? A doctor who is paying off heavy student loans and an expensive mortgage will be less well off than a retired millionaire but a tax based on actual income would hit them harder.
"It needs debating. The Lib Dems once proposed it though seem to have forgotten it."
I for one am glad that they did, I don't earn massive ammounts but I still imagine that I would be worse off under a local income tax.
"Having access to services doesn't come into it. I pay income tax to cover many services I'm unlikely to access."
You pay income taxes to central government, you pay council taxes to your local council - that is the difference. We should be able to expect results from our local council that directly effect us (bin collections, local policing, parks, libraries etc.) Central government have to provide funds for projects that often don't direct effect us like defence.
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"yellowbelly1959 wrote:
So you are advocating putting Royal Mail into administration, are you? Who will deliver your post?"
If the Union has it's way it won't be the Royal Mail as they will be on strike!
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#122
So you are advocating putting Royal Mail into administration, are you? Who will deliver your post?
Someone else.
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Ref: No 113, Council Tax.,. This is a Tax on services but based on property. It is inordinately unfair. If I live in a 3 bedroomed semi with my wife, I pay as much as my neighbour with 3 teenaged children. I use far less 'services' than my neighbour but am still charged the same.
Many people have tried different versions - all have failed. The wrongly named "Poll Tax" (we do not live in circa 1438 with Watt Tyler) look what happened then? I started off paying 'The Rates', went through community charge and now council tax. A rose by any other name.......
I am still paying even though my income has diminished. Why should I go through the humiliation of "Means Testing"? when I can just afford to pay by down sizing.
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No15 Rocking Robin
Have a look at Galbraith on The Great Crash, and Keynes General Theory. They will help you to understand.
Has anyone noticed the lack of contributions from the unfeterred free market fanatics in recent months?
Is it time for a mass culling of the fools that have teaching such nonsense in university economic departments during the last 30 years?
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#127 brave
Has anyone noticed the lack of contributions from the unfeterred free market fanatics in recent months?
Those fanatics were just relics from the cold war IMO. Good riddance to 'em.
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#105 JohnH
On the contrary, I've actually found you to be someone worth communicating with - someone who doesn't launch personal attacks in an attempt to score points. Sorry if I sounded overly critical, I didn't mean to.
Anyway, yes, you do have a point, however, let's face it, the Conservatives will form the next government.
With that in mind, I think we need to really see what the country is going to be voting for. Sure, it's fine to talk about cuts but that's all very macro. What exactly are they going to cut? Are they going to do exactly what the last two governments have done and sell the public sector off to their business friends on the cheaps? Are they going to do what Hammersmith Council do, as they said they would, and cut taxes for all and start to charge those in dire need for services (the disabled now have to pay towards their care and meals)? Etc, etc, etc
We've heard lots of rhetoric but when are they going to put pen to paper?
Will they cut Trident? Will they kick-out the legions of private sector management consultants from Whitehall and councils across the country? Will they stop saying they'll kill Ofcom, one of the most successful Quangos that contributes 400 million, because it suits certain businesses?
You see, still all rather shady.
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