Government not defeated
In normal times it would not be a story that a government with a healthy majority less than a year from a General Election managed to secure support for the Budget.
These, though, are not normal times.
It took the threat of tax chaos; the wheeling in of the sick, the shamed and the resigned and the votes, once again, of the Democratic Unionists to see ministers comfortably home.
It is yet another day that has left many backbench Labour MPs feeling depressed.
The Yorkshire group of Labour MPs went for tea with the PM this afternoon. One told him that he should take a holiday because he looked tired and was taking "tired decisions".
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~54~RS~)
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it's only a matter of time.
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Don't dare to be poor under a Labour Government.......
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"It is yet another day that has left many backbench Labour MPs feeling depressed."
Depressed indeed but sadly not suicidal...
But any normal human being would be downright "ashamed" to call themselves an "MP", which goes way beyond being "depressed". After all it's we taxpayers who get depressed watching the criminal classes in the commons sit out another year of tax/expenses fiddles, raking in the loot as they await the election and their move to a cushy job on the City - while about to embark on their 3 month summer holiday to give them time for reflection and moat-cleaning supervision.
I'm very angry that they are not in jail.
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Brown said recently that HE would now start to listen to his Back-Benchers.
But like the Prime Minister anyone would find it very hard to listen to anyone while ALL the time HE goe's around with HIS fingers firmly stuck in HIS ears, intently telling HIMSELF that HE is the best thing since slice bread.
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What a way to run a government.
ELECTION PLEASE.......NOW !!!!!
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Not long now, thank God.
It's an affront to democracy. Nice work Gordon. You've messed up the nation from top to bottom. The sad thing is that the state we're in was the Blair/Brown/Balls plan all along. The problem is that you guys never expected us to run out of money.
A masterclass in economic incompetence.
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I guess that it will take some sort of 'new broom' to provide some sense of direction to Government but it is also depressing to think that, by default, that means the Tories again.
Maybe the English voters will shock us all by suspending a decades old habit of voting in a 'tribal' fashion for the 'big three' and really shake things up a bit.
At the next General Election, we shall know if a sea-change is occurring, as I am not convinced that 'focus groups' and the like are particularly accurate political pointers in such volatile times.
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Nick,
"because he looked tired and was taking "tired decisions". "
The tired "leader" of a tired government ... time he retired !
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Nick,
Why are "many backbench Labour MPs feeling depressed." ???
Are these the same backbench MPs who were thumping the tables and cheering Gordon Brown - the best man for the job - at the PLP meeting recently ???
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I assume the same mental calculations that kyboshed the attempt to push forward an opponent to Gordon Brown when Tony Blair resigned, and when Gordon Brown was most recently under threat, have caused yet another communal loss of bottle amongst the backbench Awkward Squad:
Successful Rebellion = Election in two months time followed by eternity in the wilderness;
or
Maintain status quo with weak leader = Election at the very last moment followed by eternity in the wilderness
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4 LondonHarris
"many backbench Labour MPs feeling depressed."
Not with New Listening Gordon at the helm surely ???!?!?
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7 johnconstable
"Maybe the English voters will shock us all by suspending a decades old habit of voting in a 'tribal' fashion for the 'big three' and really shake things up a bit."
====================================================
No signs of this happening in Pickleworld.... everyone I know has the same opinion on the next general election - "Get Gordon out"!
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How much longer is this poor excuse of a government going to drag this once great country through the mud?. Please call an election now and stop this agony.
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*They're* depressed?
They should try being one of us ordinary citizens, y'know those of us who don't get gold-plated pensions, a minimum 60k wage or a generous set of expenses.
Few Labour MPs have shown any spine over Brown, perhaps they're now realizing that Brown isn't the lifeboat, but the iceberg that holed the S.S. New Labour and all clinging onto him is doing is dooming them more rapidly.
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GoBro doesn't look tired he looks incompetent and he is taking incompetent decisions.
Accept that you are just not cut out for the job. For the good of the country GoBro Go.
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Introduce a 10p tax band, to help the poorer? Good idea.
Take it away? Bad idea.
Taking it away without thinking how it could have been retained JUST for the poorer? Idiotic.
Same guy. Playing silly games. Still, it's almost time for musical chairs.
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Well done Frank Field and your few allies. What a spineless bunch are the rest of Labour.
Shame on you Brown. Shame on you Darling.
Ten pieces of Silver, not 10p!
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"It is yet another day that has left many backbench Labour MPs feeling depressed."
Perhaps that's because THEY can also see that this is NOT democracy, it is a dictatorship.
When our democratically elected representatives know that Gordon Brown and his Whips will bully the gutless in his party so that they do his bidding like a well-beaten dog, I can well imagine that those Labour MPs who care about the poor and the underprivileged *are* depressed.
But not as depressed as the rest of us!
And THEY, hopefully will do something about it. Soon.
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"One told him that he should take a holiday because he looked tired and was taking "tired decisions".
Oops... that wasn't the party line, I suspect. Is it not the case in British Politics that to call a Minister, let alone the PM, "tired", that is the beginning of the end and everyone knows its. I wonder if this phrase was given to Nick on orders from a 'Spin' person who has been known to do this sort of thing in the past. Poisonous stuff!
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Why are we not surprised that certain so-called rebels followed their 'Leader'? like lemmings just about to jump over the cliff!
They lost their bottle when faced with a very unlikely scenario presented by a panicking Chancellor and his team of money-wasters.
Clearly they are as gullible as Brown thinks (and hopes) the great British public is.
This Government lurches from one crisis to the next never willing to admit they have made mistakes, preferring instead to carry on playing politics with our futures.
All the recent stats show that GB PLC is worst placed in the world to recover from this recession and our borrowing is out of control.
Our EU 'partners' must be having a right good laugh!
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Why did the Back-Bench Labour M.Ps, cave in? Surely they must have known the result of stopping the Budget? It cannot suddenly have been brought to their notice that no more income taxes would be collected if they continued their protest.
Once again there is something rotten in this state and the smell is as bad as last week's fish.
Was this just an attempt to keep their position only to get frightened off at the last moment?
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"It is yet another day that has left many backbench Labour MPs feeling depressed".
Must be how they felt when the expenses gravy train hit the buffers!
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Lucky Brown for fighting off the rebels. Not so lucky for many on low incomes who have received nothing to make-up for losing the 10p tax band (e.g. myself).
Still, I suppose it was some time ago that Labour deserted the low income (not enough votes in it for them).
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(see below)
See below WHAT?
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sky nine @ 15
GoBro
that's not bad, haven't heard that one before - I'm quite impressed if you made that up - did you make it up?
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" No signs of this happening in Pickleworld.... everyone I know has the same opinion on the next general election - "Get Gordon out"!
So that will be you and Mrs Pickle then.
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As usual, the so-called labour "rebels" have not got one ball between them! They are, much like their leader, complete cowards!
Labour MP's had an opportunity to stand up for their core constituency and yet again, they kicked them in the guts!
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Is this the most incompetent government ever? They have a Prime Minister who claims that, in a recession where people have less and less money, he will INCREASE spending and thinks that's an election-winning strategy. Cabinet ministers are too callow and spineless to stab him in the back themselves, just resigning at him and hoping someone else will step forward, and now backbenchers refuse to revolt because of a baseless threat that this imperils the entire national budget.
For some reason the words organize, brewery, up and couldn't come to mind.
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I read a commentary piece somewhere recently (alas, I cannot remember where) which came to the conclusion that Gordon Brown is such a bitter, tribally entrenched individual that he just wants to leave as much of a mess as he possibly can for the next government to deal with because he knows he isn't going to be a part of it.
Sadly enough it made a certain amount of sense. Not knowing the man I have no idea how true it might actually be but from the way he seems to play as the dirtiest streetfighter in politics it wouldn't surprise me.
Someone, somewhere - PLEASE save the country before it's too late!
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A very shallow victory indeed and the threats issued by some of the ministers involved would be laughable if they werent so stupid....
less than a year and we get our say on there handling of the economic chaos they have created,many back benchers will be out of jobs then .
Fair play to frank field for sticking to his guns,i admire someone who doesnt toe the party line and listens to the people who voted him in.....
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We all know Labour governments relish keeping the poor down trodden, tribal and resentful, but they might be pushing their luck with this 10p debacle.
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The removal of the 10p tax band was just one of many 'stealth taxes' introduced by this government into order to pay for massive increase in public sector funding (for which we are yet to see much concrete benefit).
Unfortunately the government lost its moral compass somewhere along the line (maybe Gordon had one once but when the day Tony actually left; Gordon in turn forgot his compass down the back of the sofa in No.11).
Since, not only are they without compass, but the global financial maelstrom has reversed the magnetic poles and left us truely lost...
We're at sea, lost, without compass, and Gordon is determined to go down at the Helm....
Oh look... an Iceberg called the National Debt approaches...
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I caught most of Frank Field's speech. Very articulate, sensible and spoken with feeling. Just a pity so few were there to hear it.
Also saw one of the 'rebels' doing a 180. Trotted out the 'doomsday' line from the front bench.
Timms did not make any alternative suggestions so far as I could make out, just outlined what would go wrong if Field's proposal went through.
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rust @ 29
Gordon Brown is such a bitter, tribally entrenched individual that he just wants to leave as much of a mess as he possibly can for the next government to deal with because he knows he isn't going to be a part of it
I wouldn't go that far although I imagine, so close to an election, he's not too motivated to take unpopular (but possibly beneficial) decisions - then again the Opposition are hoping the recession gets worse, aren't they? - that's politics, I'm afraid, so one shouldn't get too angry andy about it
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How much longer are the British people supposed to put up with this "un-elected" and wholly useless PM?
WE NEED A GENERAL ELECTION . . . NOW!
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On BBC's "This Week" recently, Diane Abbott told Andrew Neil that Labour whips keep a record of their MPs' sex lives, to be used as blackmail material at a later, convenient date. Nick, do you know anything about this? It strikes me that today was an ideal time for the whips to consult their notes.
Abbott has also made frequent comments to the effect that whips bully the weaker members of the PLP on a regular basis, but they leave her alone because they have learnt they don't scare her. What a way to run a country!
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It wasn't a "threat" of tax chaos. I work in HMRC and the tax system would have combusted if the government were defeated on this.
I fail to see how even the most resentful Labour rebels thought this was a good idea, let alone the opposition parties.
Anyone who claims to represent "fiscal stability" in a time like this was utterly ignorant and irresponsible in backing this for whatever personal political motivation. God save us from these people....
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Time was when Frank Field was just about the only Labour MP that I had any respect for, but not any more.
In the last 12 months or so he's completely lost it. All he has done is come up with an interminable series of "protest votes" all of which have either been cancelled at the last minute or failed to deliver anything.
Whatever ... there will be another "crisis" along in a minute. July 23rd in Norwich, I presume?
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The Tories vote to give the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back in these very difficult times.
Labour vote to take it off them.
Hmm.
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You have to have some sympathy for Brown. He needs to claw more money out of those of us daft enough to work for a living in order to give it to the Übermenschen who have figured out how to get paid for watching Trisha.
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TIRED DECISIONS??
WE ARE ALL TIRED OF BROWN AND THE GANG EXCEPT FOR THE LOYAL FEW GRABBING
WHAT'S LEFT. BIT LIKE LOOTERS??
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#37 crongtong
You work in HMRC, and presumably at a salary level which wasn't negatively affected by the doubling of the 10p rate.
However, you clearly don't understand Parliamentary procedure. Had the amendment passed, another amendment legitimising the past collection of taxes and a pro-tem continuation would have been proposed and unanimously passed.
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#42 oldnat, you just beat me to it. Of course, after the unanimously passed resolution, GB would have to shuffle off to see HM for a dissolution and HMRC would continue on its merry way collecting tax, as it always does.
#37 crongtong, in my youth, I worked at the Inland Revenue (as it then was) and we got a memo along with the budget press releases telling us that the PCTA had been renewed and another memo telling us that the Finance Act had received the Royal Assent. Those memos went into enough detail for staff to know what the legal position was (I was a PAYE auditor so right on the front lines). Have they stopped issuing those memos?
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@ oldnat, I suspect that something would have happened along those lines, I wonder if the other alternative is that the tax system valid to apr'09 would simply have continued to apply until a new budget passed - or is the budget only valid for a year? Does anyone know?
however what concerns me more is that there is legislation from the '60s that says it is ok to assume the budget will pass so start collecting taxes - what were they on back then? Surely the budget should not be brought in until passed by parliament, else what's the point of giving a vote?
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"It is yet another day that has left many backbench Labour MPs feeling depressed."
On the bright side, at least it can be said the backbenchers are now more in touch with how the electorate are feeling.
I never thought I'd see the day a Labour Govt would consider it a good idea to increase taxes for the lower paid, very strange times we are living.
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#43 Skip_NC
I might have to rename myself oldnat_NC, as I'll be out there for 8 weeks this summer!
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May I congratulate whoever is responsible for the line alongside Mandys picture on the politics section of the beebs site, Video and Audio news section.
"Mandleson asked if he is PMs willie"
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#44 KeJaMo, Income Tax must be renewed each year. The Provisional Collection of Taxes Act temporarily renews IT for four months after the budget. If a Finance Bill is not passed (or if it does not receive the Royal Assent) within that time, the income tax legislation is repealed automatically. There is actually a vote on the HoC on budget day, immediately after the speech, but it always goes through "on the nod." However, there is nothing to stop an MP shouting "No!" and causing a division.
oldnat, surely you are not visiting North Carolina in August? It's been hot this summer so far, certainly in the Triangle. Bring your sunscreen!
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#47 xTunbridge
Funny that, just watched the video on PoliticsHome page:
Mandleson asked if he is PMs willie.
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What a tired set of comments you have here:
People from the right bleating about Brown and so called democratic rights (apparently undermined), people from the left moaning about a supposed slight on the poor and still aiming a kick at Browns sore spot from last year.
But what do we really have? A bunch of moaning hypocrites on both sides -
The right would love to have removed the 10p tax rate, they just wouldn't have replaced it with anything, so keep quiet at that point.
And the left want Brown to do more but have spent the last year demolishing his political capital from within, and so are essentially on a power trip of their own - not on a quest for decent legislation.
I'm not going to argue that the government doesn't need direction - i'm just pointing out how disingenuous the parties involved here are.
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What a disaster this country now is!
Shame on us all for allowing this to get to this stage and shame on Labour for not getting rid before now!
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"How much longer is this poor excuse of a government going to drag this once great country through the mud?"
I love this statement, when was were we great, how many years ago was that? Thatcher destroyed all the treasured institutions that oiled our nation, the unions prevented investment in new technology with job losses etc etc etc...Since 1985 we have become a simple little financial outcrop, we don't build we don't innovate,we don't invent. We throw our weight around pretending we are big bullies hiding under America's skirt, while being morally bankrupt.
I wish that one day we'll give up our security council place, bring our troops home, take care of our elderley and infirm, make our feckless work, control the idiots in the city and make a country that is safe, fair and pleasant to live in....I'm going to sleep now perchance to dream....
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#48 Skip_NC
August/ September! (childminding the grandson). I doubt the Triad is any better for heat!
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39. At 10:53pm on 07 Jul 2009, Sam_Red_Galactico wrote:
The Tories vote to give the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back in these very difficult times.
Labour vote to take it off them.
Hmm.
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This was Tory idea to make the government look bad in the eyes of the voters
But the Tories have plans to scrap the minimum wage when they get in to power so they would of given the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back for a few months
Nice one Mr Cameron trying to look like you realy care about the low paid just to score points
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This whole 10p tax thing is crazy! I suspect it was done simply to increase revenue to pay for benefits.....a surefire vote winner. As the most taxed nation in Europe, taxes should be cut and deferrment cancelled, thus maintaining a stream of revenue as less people would be out of work cos compsnows could afford to pay their tax and ni.
Government is a disaster. They should have been sent packing months ago!
(I was unaware that a budget could 'fail' to be passed-now wouldn't that be fun to see!)
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what a shambles this brown government is, penalize the poor to pay for the rich,brown should be ashamed of himself,and most labour mps.as a labour voter for all my life, they certainly wont get mine again,the sooner this rabble are chucked out the better.
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Surely the significant story is that the chancellor, by employing a legal 'trick' (Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968), and a dramatic threat (tax will have to be repaid!), has enabled the government once again to pull the teeth of parliament, and get legislation agreed which is not popular with the majority.
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No sympathy at all for the spineless,clueless and immoral wonders on the back benches as they head for their long, long, long summer holiday. No sympathy either for Brown and Darling - faffing around to defend an indefensible position just to get one over on the Tories.
When the elction comes we will of course all remember the Labour (and DUP!) MPs who couldn't bring themselves to protect the 10p tax payers - the headlines will be "Brown doubled tax on poorest million". Nice work Labour, that will have cost you another 5% at the polls.
When will Brown show some moral fibre and realise his time has long gone?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"Maybe the English voters will shock us all by suspending a decades old habit of voting in a 'tribal' fashion for the 'big three' and really shake things up a bit."
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It seems more likely that the majority will simply not vote. Most people I speak to do not like (and in some cases violently hate) all the mainstream parties. They are generally very confused about who to vote for. The likely outcome will be either a vote for the tories to get Gordon out, or not voting at all.
The really tragic part? If everyone that felt like this voted for a pro UK party (instead of the pro EU mainstream) then that pro UK party would win by a landslide and our country could be returned to proper democratic accountability once more. There are far far far more uncommitted, fed up, frustrated voters, (likely non-voters) than there are supporters of the mainstream.
How are we going to break the conditioning that only tory or labour can win?
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The government won the citizen lost is now the current state.
That is usually the case in a dictatorship
But we are a democracy with elected leaders who are accountable to us arent we?
Well maybe it is the old standards
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely even when you are a back bencher you abandon principles to tow the line, or should that be toe the line.
Party politics stinks how about people, principle, progress, promulgation, philanthropy and passion.
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SO like last time the rebials have accepted promises that no taxx payers will lose out..... and thw threat that the all income tax paid so far would have to be repaid....
So thay backed down.
Blined being lead by Flash Gordan, whe whips must have worked overtime.
So what happens now... Our Tax system gets even more complex, in order to grantee no-one loses out we will have to give more back to every one. (for example the first fix of raising the tax bands).
All Gordan needs to do is accept the easiest fix is actually to re-instate the 10p band for every one (it was not abolished for savings or some pensioners) and to SIMPLIFY the tax rules.
So Gordans Fixes will cost 10-100% more to us than reinstating the band!
But dispite admitying that the 10p band removal was a slight mistake - reinstating it would be totally against Gordans morals!
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" It is yet another day that has left many backbench Labour MPs feeling depressed."
Nick don't you mean another day when the needs of the narrow Labour Party interest won out over the needs of the poor.
My heart bleeds for them
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Slightly off topic but still tax releated:-
The goverment has all but admitted today that student loans (and write-offs) are costing us £10,000 for each student.
Otherwise why would they be suggesting that university students that do not take out any goverment backed loans or receive a university bursery might will not be charge tuitition fees. IE approx £3300 a year for 3 years making 10k for the course.
Of course the student must then either fully fund the accouidation etc either from their parents or by taking out a not goverment backed loan.
Other reasions for the offer might be:-
They have failed to sell off the student loan company so the debt is still on the goverment books;
Last years budget changed the interest calculation from CPI to RPI (meaning students will be charge negative interest this year);
Repayments are plumiting and the percentage of loans to be written off over 20years is rising.
Gradurate starting salaries are falling.
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york1900 54
York you have made this claim that the Conservatives plan to cut the minimum wage a few times now. You have been asked to provide proof of this by a few of us because we have seen nothing to suggest this. You have up to now not answered those requests will you do so now please.
Unless I have missed something the Conservatives are not cutting the minimum wage if they get into office. I would therefore like to know where your information comes from because this would be very important if it were true.
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Another great triumph for a debased democracy in the hands of those who believe in top down national socialism.
If they really believe they are right - which they can't do... not at that moment when GB is on the blower saying "Yeah, I'll keep that project going in your constituency if you back me on this vote that you blatantly don't agree with!" - as I was saying, if they really think they're right they'll take it to the voters and ask for our support, the decent way!
Brown may have been called a liar recently but I could think of far worse things to call him and his cronies... I'll save it for later!
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saga 34
Really sagamix, this takes the biscuit: "the Opposition are hoping the recession gets worse, aren't they?" No, of course they aren't. Indeed, to suggest otherwise is a remarkable position for an unbiased, new-found "floating voter" to take up. Are you going to supply us with some in-context evidence to support your thesis, or alternatively maybe a retraction? ("No" and "No", I suspect.)
(For "floating voter", read arch Brownite propagandist, I think.)
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54. At 01:26am on 08 Jul 2009, york1900 wrote:
39. At 10:53pm on 07 Jul 2009, Sam_Red_Galactico wrote:
The Tories vote to give the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back in these very difficult times.
Labour vote to take it off them.
Hmm.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This was Tory idea to make the government look bad in the eyes of the voters
But the Tories have plans to scrap the minimum wage when they get in to power so they would of given the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back for a few months
Nice one Mr Cameron trying to look like you realy care about the low paid just to score points
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York, you have raised this spurious claim about the Tories a few times and when challenged to provide concrete evidence of your claims, you simply don't or rather can not, for the simple fact the Tories have never mentioned anything of the sort.
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How can it be right that MP's who do not intend standing in the next general election can vote on leglisation for 2010 onward.
There should be an immediate by-election in every constituency where MP's of any party are standing down.
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Heartwarming to see how all those Labour rebels stuck to their moral guns and voted, oh, er, for a few more months at the trough.
Hopefully their core vote, the one's they have just turned their backs on, will remember and repay them accordingly at the ballot box.
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12. At 9:20pm on 07 Jul 2009, StrictlyPickled wrote:
7 johnconstable
"Maybe the English voters will shock us all by suspending a decades old habit of voting in a 'tribal' fashion for the 'big three' and really shake things up a bit."
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No signs of this happening in Pickleworld.... everyone I know has the same opinion on the next general election - "Get Gordon out"!
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I certainly won't be voting for the big three, having just seen that my taxes have just paid for £500 of be linen for my Tory MP.
A vote for anyone else other than labour wil still get Brown out, we don't have to have one of the big three at the top.
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If I might paraphrase Neil Kinnock.
I never thought I would see the sight of a Labour Government, A LABOUR GOVERNMENT, increasing taxation for the poorest in society in order to benefit the better off.
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Has there ever been a more mendacious and incompetent government than this one?
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50 Dayvin
'The right would love to have removed the 10p tax rate, they just wouldn't have replaced it with anything, so keep quiet at that point.'
What a ridiculous thing to say. I think you'll find many on the right would like to set the tax rate _at_ 10p and raise the threshold so the poor don't even pay tax.
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"york1900 wrote:
This was Tory idea to make the government look bad in the eyes of the voters
But the Tories have plans to scrap the minimum wage when they get in to power so they would of given the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back for a few months"
While I agree that the Tories voted in such a way to make the government look bad (and weak) in front of the voters, I have yet to see you provide ANY proof of your continued accusations that the Tories will scrap the minimum wage. They may have been against it initially but to my knowledge they have made no promises to scrap it.
I would be very happy to be corrected on this, but at the moment it just looks like you are making unproven accusations.
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"16. At 9:39pm on 07 Jul 2009, fairlyopenmind wrote:
Introduce a 10p tax band, to help the poorer? Good idea.
Take it away? Bad idea.
Taking it away without thinking how it could have been retained JUST for the poorer? Idiotic."
Tsk tsk, you do not have a PROPER understanding of Gordon's infalibility.
As Gordon sees it...
Introduce 10p rate = good idea. Abolish 10p rate = good idea.
zero % starting rate for small companies = good idea. Abolishing it = good idea.
Knocking 2.5% off VAT = boost to the economy. Put 2.5% back on VAT = boost to the economy.
Tory proposal to reduce burden of IHT (excemption of family homes)= Bad idea. Labour proposal to reduce burden of IHT (transferable allowances) = Great idea.
And on and on.....
The man really is pathologically damaged.
Refusal to see reality, temper tantrums, constant meddling in everything, stabbing of colleagues in the back, firing of those who refuse to obey, unable to accept any blame, deranged belief that only he has the answers, deranged belief that if only everyone followed him he would be victorious, belief that new 'wonder policies' will snatch victory from defeat. Is this Britain June 2009 or Berlin April 1945?
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If the Labour bankbenchers truly had the stomach for such a rebellion then they would have voted against Brown in the dissolution of parliament vote a while back.
Yes they are upset and concerned - in a theatrical, photo-opportunity, sound-bite way.
They are also in a well paid job, but probably not for much longer.
And what sort of legacy do this current lot of parliamentarians leave for posterity? Well, the way the reforms are being watered down says more than an American Express card can about the lot of them!
All this BBC, Sky and other political commentary is becoming like some sort of third rate soap opera. It's all very interesting and even entertaining.
The REALITY, however, is that parliament has lost its street-cred and both politics (as she is spoken) and democracy (as she is practised) in the UK have seriously 'lost their way' and no politician is addressing those fundamental issues because they are all focussing on their own interests.
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"It is yet another day that has left many backbench Labour MPs feeling depressed"
- what were they depressed about - their own lack of back bone and betrayal of the low paid?
It was in their hands to right the issue but they flunked it in the name of party loyalty.
Personally at this stage of Parliament, I would guess the electorate would respect Labour backbenchers much more for voting on principle than rallying round to support a mortally wounded leader.
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Where on earth did you get this claim that the Tories are going to reduce the minimum wage-it's simply not true.
What doesn't make sense to me though is that people on the minimum wage still pay tax.
The whole 10p issue could be easily resolved if the non tax threshold was raised to avoid minumum wage earners paying tax at all.
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"This was Tory idea to make the government look bad in the eyes of the voters
But the Tories have plans to scrap the minimum wage when they get in to power so they would of given the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back for a few months
Nice one Mr Cameron trying to look like you realy care about the low paid just to score points "
Thanks for the laugh York 1900!
Scottish non rebellious MPs , who should hang their collective heads in shame and who include a few " flippers" and "questionable capital gains evaders"allegedly, include,
Alexander, Douglas; Banks, Gordon; Begg, Anne; Brown, Gordon; Brown, Russell; Browne, Des; Cairns, David; Clarke, Tom; Connarty, Michael; Darling, Alistair; Donohoe, Brian H.; Doran, Frank; Griffiths, Nigel; Hamilton, David; Harris, Tom; Ingram, Adam; Joyce, Eric; Lazarowicz, Mark; McAvoy, Thomas; McFall, John; McGovern, Jim; McGuire, Anne; McKechin, Ann; McKenna, Rosemary; Moffat, Anne; Murphy, Jim; Osborne, Sandra; Reid, John; Robertson, John; Roy, Frank; Roy, Lindsay; Sarwar, Mohammad; Sheridan, Jim; Strang, Gavin.
34 Scottish Labour MPs , some of whom are the most expensive in the UK , one of whom is the Secretary of State for Scotland, two of whom are "sons of the manse"with of course a " moral compass" one of whom makes wee films of him amd " his friend" in the HoC, and one who is an ex priest.
However , the one who upsets me most ,because I had credited him with a smidgeon of integrity, is John McFall.
Labour the Party of the working man and champions of the underdogs! Ha! Ha!Ha!
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79, Diabloandco
Labour the Party of the working man and champions of the underdogs!
You are right, that was Labour, but we are dealing with New Labour, the spinning machine that is all about self preservation. The fact is that they have relied on the middle classes to support them over the last 12 years as the traditional Labour core support has seen through their smoke and past their mirrors. New Labour have lost the support of the working men of this country, and have now lost the support of the middle classes. They are being held to ransom by the Unions as it's their only source of funding, and the leader is so vulnerable that he is forced into doing deals or compromising on anything that may be slightly contentious (such as last night) and is forced to drop anything that is a challenge (Royal Mail, CSR etc).
Gonna be a long and damaging year for us all till voting day I fear
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Hi Nick
Isn't one of the principles of the Labour party that they should help the poor? Yet we have a government which after months of denying that a policy change will hurt the poor has now bullied its MPs into supporting its policy.
Have they had a policy change and they no longer wish to support the poor? Perhaps you could ask them.
If not the parliamentary Labour party should be ashamed of what it has just voted for.....
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Well, I don't know the ins and outs, the nuances, of the 10p tax debacle other than to say the way Brown initially dealt with it was unforgiveable.
He swept it aside but when the issue would not go away he eventually agreed to some sort of recompense but, I gather, not the full amount.
Now, even worse than the money is the fact that this is a LABOUR government who put themselves up for the people first and foremost and this issue coupled with the EXPENSES debacle is enough to topple them from their "moral high ground" stance once and for all.
New balls needed.
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Sagamix @25
"GoBro
that's not bad, haven't heard that one before - I'm quite impressed if you made that up - did you make it up?"
I'm afraid so but it's only an adaption of the current craze of using the first 2 letters of both the first and surname as in Susan Boyle (the GB look alike) being abbreviated to SuBo!!
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74 Mark We
You ask for proof that the Tories had said that they would repeal the minimum wage, well that would be difficult to prove now as to my recollection they never actually said it in the house of commons where proof could easily be obtained.
They certainly said it on many political interviews, I suppose if you wanted you could get that information from the BBC or Sky, but I would have thought that their vehement opposition to the minimum wage at the time it was brought before the house would have been enough.
At that time they threatenned that thousands of people would become unemployed businesses would collapse, and that it would become a disaster,since that did'nt happen the've kept very quiet about it, but that does'nt mean that they did'nt say it.
They also said, actually this one in the house that they would repeal the ban on fox hounting, I somehow think that one will be left alone considering the huge vote against hunting in the house.
They also assured us on Tv interviews but I'm not sure about in the house that they would withdraw the winter fuel allowance. and I'm sure most of you Tories will want to deny that.
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pdblake @ 70
We cannot know precisely what the politicians at the 'big three' parties are thinking with regard to their future electoral prospects.
However, I suspect that a vengeful electorate who might well vote at the next General Election for 'anybody except the above', is the uppermost fear in their minds.
In my opinion, the English can set themselves politically free by doing precisely that i.e. voting for anybody other than the 'big three'.
It probably won't turn out that way, that is, buggins (the Tories) will take their turn, which may be a catalyst for the Scots to vote for independence in November 2010 and we English will then be in a different political situation anyway.
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It appears that today a "Nu"- Labour Politician might be questioning His/Her own sanity by being a Member of a group whoms roots stem from itself the SAME grass-roots of the Working Classes only to find that instead of being a champion FOR the cause by raising the livelyhoods, and take Home pay of the Poor by ensuring that at lease they DON'T and WON'T have to pay excessive Income Tax demands, for instead intern turn-coating by completely abandoning the fight and "The Cause" by again effectivly voting to raise the 10 pence threshold on the LOWER RATE OF INCOME TAX by 100%, which WILL ONLY effect those that those the so-called, and very same in "Nu"- Labour profess to serve.
While, it has looked over the recent period that this "Nu-Labour Government has been holding a loaded Gun to its own Head, with the outcome of events in Parliament in this last Day we have now seen that very same Gun being finally fired, and you know what, Gordon MISSED AGAIN, for the only People that are going to suffer will be those whom make up the back-bone of the British Society whom have so far stayed silent in fear of losing their Job's just managing to to get by from this April on a reduced Pay Packet thanks to these same Self - Serving "Nu"- Labour Politicians whom voted to compound, and enforce a Pay reduction for the Poor.
In the Case of the Poor, for indeed, with Friends like "Nu-Labour including the lackies of RICH TUC UNION LEADERS, then who needs ANY Enemies, and moreover from now on WHOM is going to represent the Working-Classes?
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No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin.
Aneurin Bevan
Nice one, Nye, but I wonder what he would say about the Labour Party today.
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Re: 'The right would love to have removed the 10p tax rate, they just wouldn't have replaced it with anything, so keep quiet at that point.'
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This is one of the most rediculous comments I have ever read. It was the Tories that introduced the 10p band (in 1992) and they have voted against it being scrapped within the last 48 hours.
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"grandantidote wrote:
74 Mark We
You ask for proof that the Tories had said that they would repeal the minimum wage, well that would be difficult to prove now as to my recollection they never actually said it in the house of commons where proof could easily be obtained."
So that would be no actual firm proof then?
"They certainly said it on many political interviews, I suppose if you wanted you could get that information from the BBC or Sky, but I would have thought that their vehement opposition to the minimum wage at the time it was brought before the house would have been enough."
Obviously it can't be that easy to find as I am suspect you may have done a quick search to back up your post! Yes, they were opposed to the minimum wage when it was brought before the house but their reasons for opposing it never actually came about (we didn't have a massive small business collapse) If they wanted to revoke it now they would need to come up with a new reason as their old one is no longer valid.
"At that time they threatenned that thousands of people would become unemployed businesses would collapse, and that it would become a disaster,since that did'nt happen the've kept very quiet about it, but that does'nt mean that they did'nt say it."
So you agree that the Tory's reason for opposing the minimum wage was wrong yet you are trying to suggest that a Tory party that is trying to win Labour voters (who are most likely to benefit from the minimum wage) will repeal the minimum wage. Why? They have no reason to repeal it and a very good one not to!
They may have said it in the past but you yourself admit that they have kept quiet about it recently! Obviously suggesting that repealing the minimum wage is not one of their current policies.
"They also assured us on Tv interviews but I'm not sure about in the house that they would withdraw the winter fuel allowance. and I'm sure most of you Tories will want to deny that."
They may well have done, but I expect many pensioners would happily lose the allowance if it was replaced by a proper increase in pensions (but I doubt it will be)
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#54 york1900
The Tories have plans to cut the minimum wage?
I suppose it's possible although who knows what the Tories are really planning as they dodge the issues and never make it clear - they're currently the anything to everyone party, just happy to please all voters which is worrying.
Regarding the minimum wage, in fairness to the Tories, Boris Johnson in London actually increased the minimum wage for all GLA employees to a living wage. I live in hope.
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These are not normal times. However, this is not a normal Prime Minister.
Gordon is a self serving lunatic and he needs removal immediately, if not sooner.
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So New Labour tax policy is.....
Raise the top band of tax from 40 to 50%, which will inconvenience a few AND to increase the bottom rate of tax from 10 to 20% which will hurt millions.
Brilliant.........not
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65. At 08:51am on 08 Jul 2009, Susan-Croft wrote:
york1900 54
York you have made this claim that the Conservatives plan to cut the minimum wage a few times now. You have been asked to provide proof of this by a few of us because we have seen nothing to suggest this. You have up to now not answered those requests will you do so now please.
Unless I have missed something the Conservatives are not cutting the minimum wage if they get into office. I would therefore like to know where your information comes from because this would be very important if it were true.
_________________________________________________________________________
Here is the link you should look at and see what is coming our way
and there is no spin on this link
http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=38647&SESSION=899
You will see that if this gets through well all are in danger of of getting a fair days pay
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79 diabloandco
#Scottish non rebellious MPs , who should hang their collective heads in shame and who include a few " flippers" and "questionable capital gains evaders"allegedly, include,
Alexander, Douglas; Banks, Gordon; Begg, Anne; Brown, Gordon; Brown, Russell; Browne, Des; Cairns, David; Clarke, Tom; Connarty, Michael; Darling, Alistair; Donohoe, Brian H.; Doran, Frank; Griffiths, Nigel; Hamilton, David; Harris, Tom; Ingram, Adam; Joyce, Eric; Lazarowicz, Mark; McAvoy, Thomas; McFall, John; McGovern, Jim; McGuire, Anne; McKechin, Ann; McKenna, Rosemary; Moffat, Anne; Murphy, Jim; Osborne, Sandra; Reid, John; Robertson, John; Roy, Frank; Roy, Lindsay; Sarwar, Mohammad; Sheridan, Jim; Strang, Gavin.
And you have definitive proof of your allegations against these people do you?. Perhaps since you appear to have a aptitude for these things perhaps you would like to give us a list of Tories that have been listed for their misdemeanors not Scots of course as their pretty thin on the ground.
I thought that I should remind you of this since I did'nt have a opportunity to answer you.
#345. Diabloandco wrote:
Grandantidote , old chum I referred another who deemed the politics of envy to be a worthy pastime, and who spends much of his/her time on this blog pursuing a "Labour is best and lets sneer at all others" while birlin' like a peerie.
I was amazed at your gall,you complained that people were being referred
and when I suggested to you that you must have referred, you replied rather proudly with the above, which clearly inicates that if you disagree with someones post you consider that it falls upon you to refer them irrespective of their right of free speech, so we have to consider that if you post something that I or anyone else does'nt agree with we are quite at liberty to refer your post, is that right?.
#By the way try " have " not "of" - grammatically it's a pet hate of mine.
Along with " invite"used as a noun.
With regard to the above, I am a little to old in the tooth to recieve instruction from you however well intentioned.
So you can write a grammaticaly correct letter. what other skills do you have?, I have many from building a number of yachts 55' 47' 43' in length among a number of others that I have built in wood. steel, concrete, and GP, I have also restored a number of old vessels that now grace several museums both here and abroad.
I have built and I have sailed and navigated some of these craft over many seas and two oceans, I wont go into the many other skills that I have to hand as they all pale into insignificance compared to you ability to write a grammatically correct letter don't you think?.
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74. At 09:26am on 08 Jul 2009, Mark_WE wrote:
"york1900 wrote:
This was Tory idea to make the government look bad in the eyes of the voters
But the Tories have plans to scrap the minimum wage when they get in to power so they would of given the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back for a few months"
While I agree that the Tories voted in such a way to make the government look bad (and weak) in front of the voters, I have yet to see you provide ANY proof of your continued accusations that the Tories will scrap the minimum wage. They may have been against it initially but to my knowledge they have made no promises to scrap it.
I would be very happy to be corrected on this, but at the moment it just looks like you are making unproven accusations.
_________________________________________________________________________
http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=38647&SESSION=899
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"..backbench Labour MPs feeling depressed.." and "..looking tired PM making 'tired decisions'.."
Well, imagine how the UK/England Public feels!
A Scottish PM whom no one south of the border had even a chance to vote for or against.
An Expenses Scandal affecting 470+ of elected MPs, Cabinet Ministers etc. and not one dis/honourable resignation from Westminster.
A promise of a Reformed Parliament and as a first step the 650 elect as Speaker 2 x House flipper Bercow - - the sort of 'political transparency' more associated with Zimbabwhe, China etc.
A Parliament for Scotland, an Assembly for Wales and devolved power-sharing for Northern Ireland, and for England and the English... Nothing.
A Manifesto promise of a Referendum on the EU Constitution reneged on.
A deliberate Policy ploy of suggesting a Referendum on the Lisbon Treaty is simply dropped.
A National Enquiry on Iraq that is not Public nor accountable to the Public (they even had to be reminded the Families of dead/wounded Armed Forces would want to be represented/have a voice!).
A 10p Tax-Rate cut without any regard to the millions of lowest-paid affected and they are still trying to paper over the debilitating cracks.
A continued UK/England Membership of the European Union despite the most recent EU Parliament election turnout failing to have 1 MEP returned with 33% of the Votes cast (and 2 fascists elected).
A simply, plainly, wholly ridiculous Report, only yesterday, claiming that 'immigrants' do not get piority Housing/Benefits when every City and Town across the Isles has to 'House' them or the streets would be flooded with 750,000 Government 'known' entrants in 2007-08.
A Banking and Investment system in meltdown putting 3.5 million out of work whilst the Bosses retire on huge Pensions and not 1 is prosecuted.
"Depressed"? "Tired"?
As 'nolemonade' wrote at #3: Pity the whole 650 MPs are not "suicidal" because that is how the conniving, venal, undemocratic Brown, Cameron, Clegg etc. have left the rest of us feeling!
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68. At 09:07am on 08 Jul 2009, ghostworld wrote:
54. At 01:26am on 08 Jul 2009, york1900 wrote:
39. At 10:53pm on 07 Jul 2009, Sam_Red_Galactico wrote:
The Tories vote to give the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back in these very difficult times.
Labour vote to take it off them.
Hmm.
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This was Tory idea to make the government look bad in the eyes of the voters
But the Tories have plans to scrap the minimum wage when they get in to power so they would of given the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back for a few months
Nice one Mr Cameron trying to look like you realy care about the low paid just to score points
_________________________________________________________________________
http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=38647&SESSION=899
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Is this the bit you mean York from your link
leave out from `welcomes' to end and add `the publication of the Employment Opportunities Bill which would inter alia give a right to work to asylum seekers whose applications for asylum are awaiting determination and which would also enable any employee who would otherwise qualify for entitlement to the national minimum wage to elect to opt out from such entitlement; notes that the Bill does not abolish the minimum wage; regrets that the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East and his colleagues have failed to comprehend the contents of the Bill; and calls on them to bring to the attention of the public the contents of Clause 2(5) of the Bill which makes clear that nothing in the Bill shall require a person to take employment below the minimum wage and that no person shall suffer any detriment to their entitlement to national insurance benefits by reason of their unwillingness to take employment below the minimum wage.'.
Signatures( 8)
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Read and see
Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con):
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmhansrd/cm090210/debtext/90210-0004.htm#09021037000001
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I think there is something very destructive about Frank Field, he ws prepared to wreck the budget for the sake of £1 per week. what the Dickens does £1. buy these days, not even a cup of coffee.
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79 diabloandco
#Scottish non rebellious MPs , who should hang their collective heads in shame and who include a few " flippers" and "questionable capital gains evaders"allegedly, include,
Alexander, Douglas; Banks, Gordon; Begg, Anne; Brown, Gordon; Brown, Russell; Browne, Des; Cairns, David; Clarke, Tom; Connarty, Michael; Darling, Alistair; Donohoe, Brian H.; Doran, Frank; Griffiths, Nigel; Hamilton, David; Harris, Tom; Ingram, Adam; Joyce, Eric; Lazarowicz, Mark; McAvoy, Thomas; McFall, John; McGovern, Jim; McGuire, Anne; McKechin, Ann; McKenna, Rosemary; Moffat, Anne; Murphy, Jim; Osborne, Sandra; Reid, John; Robertson, John; Roy, Frank; Roy, Lindsay; Sarwar, Mohammad; Sheridan, Jim; Strang, Gavin.
And you have definitive proof of your allegations against these people do you?. Perhaps since you appear to have a aptitude for these things perhaps you would like to give us a list of Tories that have been listed for their misdemeanors not Scots of course as their pretty thin on the ground.
I thought that I should remind you of this since I did'nt have a opportunity to answer you.
#345. Diabloandco wrote:
Grandantidote , old chum I referred another who deemed the politics of envy to be a worthy pastime, and who spends much of his/her time on this blog pursuing a "Labour is best and lets sneer at all others" while birlin' like a peerie.
I was amazed at your gall,you complained that people were being referred
and when I suggested to you that you must have referred, you replied rather proudly with the above, which clearly inicates that if you disagree with someones post you consider that it falls upon you to refer them irrespective of their right of free speech, so we have to consider that if you post something that I or anyone else does'nt agree with we are quite at liberty to refer your post, is that right?.
#By the way try " have " not "of" - grammatically it's a pet hate of mine.
Along with " invite"used as a noun.
With regard to the above, I am a little to old in the tooth to recieve instruction from you however well intentioned.
So you can write a grammaticaly correct letter. what other skills do you have?, I have many from building a number of yachts 55' 47' 43' in length among a number of others that I have built in wood. steel, concrete, and GP, I have also restored a number of old vessels that now grace several museums both here and abroad.
I have built and I have sailed and navigated some of these craft over many seas and two oceans, I wont go into the many other skills that I have to hand as they all pale into insignificance compared to you ability to write a grammatically correct letter don't you think?.
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Blimey ! Grandy, am well impressed with your nautical exploits
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21. At 10:04pm on 07 Jul 2009, b-b-jack wrote:
Why did the Back-Bench Labour M.Ps, cave in? Surely they must have known the result of stopping the Budget? It cannot suddenly have been brought to their notice that no more income taxes would be collected if they continued their protest.
Once again there is something rotten in this state and the smell is as bad as last week's fish.
Was this just an attempt to keep their position only to get frightened off at the last moment?
------------------------------
Why do backbenchers of all parties always back down - a combination of dire threats, sweeteners & ou & out bribes from the whips. and at this stage in a parliaments life the threats can be truly career ending.
I'm more interested in what the government used to bribe the Unionists this time.
The Unionists willingness to sell their parliamentary votes (though, to be fair, only in issues not directly affecting ireland) seems down right unethical, verging on the anti-democratic to me.
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york1900 93 95 97
Chris Chope is not a member of the Conservative front bench and so his early day motions are not in any way an indication of party policy - just the weird opinions of himself and a couple of friends.
Let's put it this way - do you want us to interpret Labour official policy from the contents of their private members EDMs? Because if you do, you will be into an all day job trying to back track from the myriad murky byways of the thinking of your own MPs!
In short, you have in no way proved that Conservative policy is to remove the minimum wage - which would be to argue that black is white, because removal of the minimum wage is in no way Conservative policy.
Have another go, matey!
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98. At 12:49pm on 08 Jul 2009, ghostworld wrote:
see my post 99 link
Once you allow employers to employ people below the minimum wage employers will want to only employ people below that and then employers who pay minimum wage or above are then put under pressure to reduce there costs and the only way to do that is to get rid of staff and take staff on who will work for less or go out of business
this in effect scraps the minimum wage by the back door we will be back to the 70's and 80's where employers paid as little as possible and you had to work 60 plus hours a week to pay bills
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Threatening that not doubling the tax rates of the lowest-paid will cause mass chaos purely in a bid for Brown to get his own way is, I think, about as low as Brown/Labour have gone, and that's really saying something.
The labour MPs who capitulated should be absolutely ashamed of themselves; it's truly disgusting and sums up exactly why we need these people physically kicked out of Parliament immediately.
I don't think words can express just how low, disgusting, selfish, petty, stupid, and arrogant Brown/Labour's actions have been over this.
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#84
So on the basis that the Tories were opposed to the national minimum wage when introduced you're arguing that they will abolish it if they get in? It was introduced in 1999. HELLO. There have been a few changes in Tory thinking since then you know. You wouldn't be scaremongering would you?
Meantime, I recall a couple of very prominent Whigs who were opposed to the abolition of slavery in Britain. To me, this PROVES that the Liberal party are hell-bent on re-introducing slavery, although I have not actually heard then say so.
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A round of applause for Gordon Brown and Brownite democracy.
Once again the Labour MPs that have a backbone are slapped down by the invertebrates.
Again Gordon calls in the cavalry from the minorities, the freaks and the demented to help ride rough shod over his own back benchers.
Time for a shakespearian huddle benhind closed doors methinks.
Maybe the few remaining Labour honourable members will be brave enough to deliver the unkindest cut of all.
Oh and is it correct that Nicholas is being moved from Politics to Business?
Maybe, like me, Nicholas has rattled too many Labour cages.
Or has there been a huddle of the Brownite moderators to depose old Nick?
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104. At 1:17pm on 08 Jul 2009, york1900 wrote:
98. At 12:49pm on 08 Jul 2009, ghostworld wrote:
see my post 99 link
Once you allow employers to employ people below the minimum wage employers will want to only employ people below that and then employers who pay minimum wage or above are then put under pressure to reduce there costs and the only way to do that is to get rid of staff and take staff on who will work for less or go out of business
this in effect scraps the minimum wage by the back door we will be back to the 70's and 80's where employers paid as little as possible and you had to work 60 plus hours a week to pay bills
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I refer you to post 103...
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89 Mark we
The topic I believe was whether or not they said that they would repeal the minimum wage, I have not as you suggested checked on the internet or anywhere else that isn't my style, but if you wish to check then be my guest.
The actual proof to me is that I heard several Tories suggest that thats what they would do but you won't find it in Hansard, and you obviously are not likely to accept my word even if you probably know it to be true.
#So you agree that the Tory's reason for opposing the minimum wage was wrong yet you are trying to suggest that a Tory party that is trying to win Labour voters (who are most likely to benefit from the minimum wage) will repeal the minimum wage. Why? They have no reason to repeal it and a very good one not to!
I think you've got the cart before the horse there Mark, its you who are agreeing with me that the Tories got it wrong not me agreeing with you.
I didn't say that the tories will repeal the minimum wage, what I said was that they did say that they would.
#They may have said it in the past but you yourself admit that they have kept quiet about it recently! Obviously suggesting that repealing the minimum wage is not one of their current policies.
My argument was not whether or not they would repeal the minimum wage but as you now seem to agree that they did say they would.
#They may well have done, but I expect many pensioners would happily lose the allowance if it was replaced by a proper increase in pensions (but I doubt it will be)
The pensioners have had a year on year increase in their pension, if Labour had carried on with the tories method of increases which they did for the first year in power, hence labours derisery 75p increase that caused rightly such an uproar, since then there has been a yearly increase in line with and sometimes above inflation, the two hundred pounds, now two hundred and fifty pound, four hundred for over eighties was given as a winter fuel allowance the Tory allowance was ten pounds if the temperature stayed below freezing for seven days. This year the government gave every pensioner sixty pounds extra because the winter was a little harder than usual, they have also done away with TV license, and given pensioners free bus travel, compare that to the generous ten pounds from the Tories.
Since I am a long standing pensioner I have seen these changes and believe me we are very grateful for the winter allowance on top of our increased pension.
Who broke the pensioners away from the cost of living index,I will leave you to guess.
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Apparently Westminster is to be renamed to Wasteminster.
Waste of time Government, wasting public money on a bunch of waster MPs.
Is that a pile of (post PMQ time) manure next to the despatch box?
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Now back to the SKY NEWS - Adam Boulton Blog where there is a refreshing absence of Brownite moderation.
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100. At 1:09pm on 08 Jul 2009, Jiminywicket wrote:
I think there is something very destructive about Frank Field, he ws prepared to wreck the budget for the sake of 1 per week. what the Dickens does 1. buy these days, not even a cup of coffee.
I just bought a jar for £3 that should last a good month or more. Versus £30 for a daily fix of caffeine for those better placed that seems a good deal.
I've heard of 'death by a thousand cuts' but this odd notion of bankrupted by a thousand 'it's only's' is... quaint.
Next someone (different) will be saying the licence fee is 'only' around £3 a week. And look what that 'buys'.
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97. At 12:46pm on 08 Jul 2009, york1900 wrote:
But the Tories have plans to scrap the minimum wage when they get in to power so they would of given the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back for a few months
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Which makes you wonder why Brown has not thrown that one back in Camerons face in his own defence?
The reality is that the Conservatives have no policies of their own that they can offer up, only criticism.
While we are on the topic of tax, has anybody else noticed how reluctant Ozzy has been to commit the Tories to the abolition of the 50 per cent band?
Nick,
A valiant attempt to make another minor stir in Westminster look like a major story, but the backbenchers, like their Leader, are gutless.
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" 108. At 1:29pm on 08 Jul 2009, ghostworld wrote:
see my post 99 link
Once you allow employers to employ people below the minimum wage employers will want to only employ people below that and then employers who pay minimum wage or above are then put under pressure to reduce there costs"
I take you have never employed anyone?
Away from the cosy world of the public sector there is a concept of paying peole what they are worth. Good employers know that, pay to get the best and flourish. Bad employers don't and go under.
the only place where you can get away with paying inflated pay to incompetents is the public centre since it isn't the employers money being used. It's the private sectors.
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Good afternoon nick nice weather here you go storms haven't you?Regarding the statement that the torys would change the minimum wage is a non starter in my opinion ,There has to be a starting point in all negotiations hasn't there?Why would they want to change it? I think mr Cameron is keeping his hand tightly to his chest in as much as to state policies before you are in power is to give valuable information to the other side to use in their favor or to take credit for or otherwise.Most of the changes nulabour are implementing are if any thing solely as vote catchers, as they are on a loosing wicket at present what with one thing and another, grabbing at straws as usual While his masters voice is at the g8 summit stirring it up no doubt? You know iam important Thats why iam here Cant wait for 2010 Can you?
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103. At 1:15pm on 08 Jul 2009, jrperry wrote:
york1900 93 95 97
Chris Chope is not a member of the Conservative front bench and so his early day motions are not in any way an indication of party policy - just the weird opinions of himself and a couple of friends.
Let's put it this way - do you want us to interpret Labour official policy from the contents of their private members EDMs? Because if you do, you will be into an all day job trying to back track from the myriad murky byways of the thinking of your own MPs!
In short, you have in no way proved that Conservative policy is to remove the minimum wage - which would be to argue that black is white, because removal of the minimum wage is in no way Conservative policy.
Have another go, matey!
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The Conservative back bench put forward things the the front bench do not want to be tarred with or it can be see as Conservative policy
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york1900 99
You are quite wrong here this is Bill on the 'Right To Work', it is not a policy for the Conservatives to stop the minimum wage. There is a lot I agree with here actually. Should it be right for a Government to criminalise people who want to work for less money. As the article points out 1 million people are know to be working below the minimum wage at least already. That is only the ones we know about. Market forces are already pushing wages down, so this could be the end result anyway. Do you believe it is right to stop people working for less if they want to?
This Bill is about giving people the option to work for less if they choose to. After all taxes bring the amount received by those on the minimum wage down anyway.
You would be better employed rather than accusing the Conservatives of something they are not doing to ask yourself why a greedy Labour Government is taking taxes off such low income workers. Perhaps if this Government had not spent so much money on providing for those who will not work, when they can, we could have done much more for those working hard on low incomes to take them out of the theshold of paying tax at all.
We have seen only yesterday how little the Government cares about our low income workers.
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114. At 1:46pm on 08 Jul 2009, AndyC555 wrote:
" 108. At 1:29pm on 08 Jul 2009, ghostworld wrote:
see my post 99 link
Once you allow employers to employ people below the minimum wage employers will want to only employ people below that and then employers who pay minimum wage or above are then put under pressure to reduce there costs"
I take you have never employed anyone?
Away from the cosy world of the public sector there is a concept of paying peole what they are worth. Good employers know that, pay to get the best and flourish. Bad employers don't and go under.
the only place where you can get away with paying inflated pay to incompetents is the public centre since it isn't the employers money being used. It's the private sectors.
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Urm.. I didn't post that, i believe it was YORK1900
Please don't start the public v private sector wars it's all rather tedius. Although i can say that some pay is inflated in the public sector that is mainly the fat cats most are on below average wage
Further i don't think the pay to get the best kinda works really ...thats the excuse the bankers come out with and look at the mess they created
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Also 114 the private sector rely on a lot of contracts from the the public sector .. IT contracts being one area
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116. At 1:56pm on 08 Jul 2009, york1900 wrote:
103. At 1:15pm on 08 Jul 2009, jrperry wrote:
york1900 93 95 97
Chris Chope is not a member of the Conservative front bench and so his early day motions are not in any way an indication of party policy - just the weird opinions of himself and a couple of friends.
Let's put it this way - do you want us to interpret Labour official policy from the contents of their private members EDMs? Because if you do, you will be into an all day job trying to back track from the myriad murky byways of the thinking of your own MPs!
In short, you have in no way proved that Conservative policy is to remove the minimum wage - which would be to argue that black is white, because removal of the minimum wage is in no way Conservative policy.
Have another go, matey!
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The Conservative back bench put forward things the the front bench do not want to be tarred with or it can be see as Conservative policy
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The same as Labour backbenchers put all sorts of daft ideas forward and then get slapped down by front banchers for being daft
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"109. At 1:31pm on 08 Jul 2009, grandantidote wrote:
89 Mark we
The topic I believe was whether or not they said that they would repeal the minimum wage, I have not as you suggested checked on the internet or anywhere else that isn't my style, but if you wish to check then be my guest.
The actual proof to me is that I heard several Tories suggest that thats what they would do but you won't find it in Hansard, and you obviously are not likely to accept my word even if you probably know it to be true. "
Yes, the topic was that IF elected the Tories would repeal the minimum wage. This suggests that the policy would have to be current not a policy pledge from years ago.
As I haven't heard anything to suggest that Tory Policy (i.e. what they plan to do IF they get elected) is to repeal the Minimum wage. As you can probably understand second hand information from someone who certainly appears to be a Labour Party supporter doesn't strike me as proof.
If you can find a recent (i.e. something that suggests it is current policy) statement from a senior Tory (i.e. not a back bencher who would have little inpact on policy) then it would be considered proof.
"I think you've got the cart before the horse there Mark, its you who are agreeing with me that the Tories got it wrong not me agreeing with you.
I didn't say that the tories will repeal the minimum wage, what I said was that they did say that they would."
They MAY have said they would but have they announced it as a recent policy? Or are you referring to some interview made before the last election? Or the one before that? I think that even the Tories agree that their warnings on the minimum wage were wrong - so statements taken back when they were clearly against it no longer apply. If they are against the policy NOW then that would be news, that they were against in THEN is not.
"My argument was not whether or not they would repeal the minimum wage but as you now seem to agree that they did say they would."
Then you are trying to argue the wrong point, York's comment suggested that IF the Tories are elected NOW they will repeal the minimum wage. The minimum wage was not the failure the Tories thought and they have no reason to repeal it now. I know it is hard for a Labour supporter but you have to try and judge the current Tory party not the one from years back (although to be fair there isn't really anything to judge as Cameron has played his cards very close to his chest and has avoided saying anything negative)
"#They may well have done, but I expect many pensioners would happily lose the allowance if it was replaced by a proper increase in pensions (but I doubt it will be)
The pensioners have had a year on year increase in their pension, if Labour had carried on with the tories method of increases which they did for the first year in power, hence labours derisery 75p increase that caused rightly such an uproar, since then there has been a yearly increase in line with and sometimes above inflation"
I personally wouldn't call an increase in line with inflation to be an increase as in real terms it is matching the increases in prices.
I am not a pensioner but under Labour I have suffered from the drag effect (where tax allowances don't rise in-line with inflation) which means that after your pay rises you pay more tax on essentially the same pay.
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Oh Grandantidote Nice to hear you were involved in my old craft I worked for Pegasus of Lymington we used to build the flying 45 many of which were sent to the Caribbean They were biased on the war time m.t.b. with twin thorny croft diesels
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It is difficult to feel sorry for Labour backbenchers who wandered through the lobbies like sheep with degrees in docility (BA hons) to facilitate the enactment of this and countless other overtly political measures. None of them, save Frank Field, could muster so much as a speck of foresight for the consequences of abolishing the lower rate. They now find their livelihoods and those of their constituents in the hands of a man whose every decision is political rather than practical. The consequences of which are becoming plain for all to see save family Balls. To be fair, the man from Yorkshire got it right about the need for Brown to take a holiday. 40 years should do the trick and I leave it to you and your readers to suggest a suitable venue.
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67. At 09:02am on 08 Jul 2009, jrperry wrote:
saga 34
Really sagamix, this takes the biscuit: "the Opposition are hoping the recession gets worse, aren't they?" No, of course they aren't. Indeed, to suggest otherwise is a remarkable position for an unbiased, new-found "floating voter" to take up. Are you going to supply us with some in-context evidence to support your thesis, or alternatively maybe a retraction? ("No" and "No", I suspect.)
(For "floating voter", read arch Brownite propagandist, I think.)
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While I don't agree with Saga on many things, and am nearer to a torie than a labour voter, the point saga is making is that if the economy improves before an election, then Brown will take the credit and that will be bad for the tories. Pretty obvious really.
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9. At 10:53pm on 07 Jul 2009, Sam_Red_Galactico wrote:
The Tories vote to give the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back in these very difficult times.
Labour vote to take it off them.
Hmm.
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This was Tory idea to make the government look bad in the eyes of the voters
But the Tories have plans to scrap the minimum wage when they get in to power so they would of given the less well-off in society more of their own hard-earned money back for a few months
Nice one Mr Cameron trying to look like you realy care about the low paid just to score points
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Please provide the link to the Tory press release, policy document or similar to verify this nonsense you keep spouting about the Tories abolishing the minimum wage, without one shred of evidence.
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117. At 1:57pm on 08 Jul 2009, Susan-Croft wrote
I do not believe that once you open the gate to allow employers to employ people below minimum wage that anyone in a job would be safe from the employers who only look at how much profit they can make for themselves
if you take the level playing field away from those employers who play fair by there staff by allowing other employers who only see how much profit they can make and do not care about there staff back in to the market place every employer as to go the same way to stay in business
we will be back to cleaners and others paid next to nothing and hospitals going back to contractors to do the cleaning and we all know what happens then
We have seen it in the banks where the top get millions and the rest get penults of what they do
There as allot of employers that have moved there call centers overseas just because they can employ staff at a cheaper rate
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116 york1900
Still desperately clinging on to the notion that a private member's EDM defines Conservative policy on the minimum wage, you said
"The Conservative back bench put forward things the the front bench do not want to be tarred with or it can be see as Conservative policy".
See ghostworld's point at 120.
But if you really want to hold to this ridiculous point, then we can have a trawl through Labour EDMs. I promise you, you will get a whole day's worth of bunkum to try to dissociate yourself from.
Face the facts: EDMs are about letting a bit of steam off. They are used by both sides with notorious regularity, and ignored equally by the respective front benches with similar regularity. You clearly have nothing at all to back up your accusation that removing the minimum wage is Conservative policy. Your story is somewhere on the spectrum of distraction, scare tactics and smear and you should withdraw it.
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84. At 11:49am on 08 Jul 2009, grandantidote wrote:
Pure waffle and speculation. Where is there any concrete evidence that this is current official Tory party policy, rather than Labour spin, innuendo and misdirection?
By the way, how do you stand on Labour doubling the tax rate for the poorest paid, and proposing to introduce a tax on jobs from next April?
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109 grandantidote:
My Dear fellow, Im very glad that you are happy with your pension situation & think that the Labour Party are looking after you so well.
Perhaps you could spare a thought for my generation that cant retire until we are 67 now, or my children who cant retire until they are 69.
These rises to retirement age where made before the financial brown stuff hit the fan last fall, so I have no doubt that future Governments will have no choice but to eventually means test state pensions & increase the ages still further.
Perhaps you are lucky enough to have a final salary company scheme as well?
If so, then you are lucky since most of the current generation will have to live (sic) on the money purchase schemes that pay out a pittance.
I could go on about how Brown has ransacked the pension schemes to rob us of our futures so he can pay for a few peoples TV licenses etc now, but why should I depress myself further.
Yes, Brown has done a very good job of passing on an increasing burden of debt to me, my children, my Grand children &, if we carry on the way we are, my Great Grand children.
You say Who broke the pensioners away from the cost of living index,I will leave you to guess.
Yes,& how many years did it take to reinstate this link & how many years will it take to actually fully reinstate it?
2011 if I recall (but I stand to be corrected).
Hardly a lightening fast reaction from Bullet Brown was it?
Im resigned to the fact that the writings on the wall for my generation & we will either work until we die, or die in poverty.
Which ever comes first?
One final on topic note:
Dont forget that poorer pensioners benefited from the 10 per cent tax band as well, so I would say that Brown hates you as much as he does us.
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104. At 1:17pm on 08 Jul 2009, york1900 wrote:
98. At 12:49pm on 08 Jul 2009, ghostworld wrote:
see my post 99 link
Once you allow employers to employ people below the minimum wage employers will want to only employ people below that and then employers who pay minimum wage or above are then put under pressure to reduce there costs and the only way to do that is to get rid of staff and take staff on who will work for less or go out of business
this in effect scraps the minimum wage by the back door we will be back to the 70's and 80's where employers paid as little as possible and you had to work 60 plus hours a week to pay bills
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How does that make any sense at all? If you're right then we would all be on exactly the mimimum wage now wouldn't we? Haven't you noticed that some people actually earn more than the minimum?
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124 sweetanybody
The worse the state of the economy, the worse the mess the Tories have to clear up after the election. Cameron is also wise enough to know that people have short memories and that it won't be long into a Conservative administration before people start to forget that the debt mountain is inherited from Labour, and start blaming the Tories for it.
In short, the Conservatives are hoping for economic recovery just as much as anyone else.
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#96 ikamaskeip
"A Parliament for Scotland, an Assembly for Wales and devolved power-sharing for Northern Ireland, and for England and the English... Nothing."
Now I wonder why that was. Did you ask for an English Parliament? The rest of us did - and very politely too!
Or did you just ignore the whole devolution debate as "a quarrel in a far-away land between peoples of whom we know nothing"?
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126. At 2:33pm on 08 Jul 2009, york1900 wrote:
117. At 1:57pm on 08 Jul 2009, Susan-Croft wrote
I do not believe that once you open the gate to allow employers to employ people below minimum wage that anyone in a job would be safe from the employers who only look at how much profit they can make for themselves
if you take the level playing field away from those employers who play fair by there staff by allowing other employers who only see how much profit they can make and do not care about there staff back in to the market place every employer as to go the same way to stay in business
we will be back to cleaners and others paid next to nothing and hospitals going back to contractors to do the cleaning and we all know what happens then
We have seen it in the banks where the top get millions and the rest get penults of what they do
There as allot of employers that have moved there call centers overseas just because they can employ staff at a cheaper rate.
===
Nice one York1900. You have just admitted that the minimum wage is responsible for driving thousands of low-paid jobs overseas where there is no National Minimum Wage equivalent.
By extension, what you are saying is that we must abolish the Minimum Wage to protect low-paid jobs in this country.
Thank you!
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127. At 2:38pm on 08 Jul 2009, jrperry wrote:
116 york1900
Still desperately clinging on to the notion that a private member's EDM defines Conservative policy on the minimum wage, you said
"The Conservative back bench put forward things the the front bench do not want to be tarred with or it can be see as Conservative policy".
See ghostworld's point at 120.
But if you really want to hold to this ridiculous point, then we can have a trawl through Labour EDMs. I promise you, you will get a whole day's worth of bunkum to try to dissociate yourself from.
Face the facts: EDMs are about letting a bit of steam off. They are used by both sides with notorious regularity, and ignored equally by the respective front benches with similar regularity. You clearly have nothing at all to back up your accusation that removing the minimum wage is Conservative policy. Your story is somewhere on the spectrum of distraction, scare tactics and smear and you should withdraw it.
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Well read the bill going forward at this link
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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121 mark we
I am afraid we seem to be getting no where I have not at any time said that it is Tory policy now its just that several posters were asking for proof that they had said it, not of me but of York, I was merely saying that I clearly remember several Tories boasting about how they would repeal the minimum wage, which you seemed to agree with, and yet you say
#As you can probably understand second hand information from someone who certainly appears to be a Labour Party supporter doesn't strike me as proof.
I am quite clearly a Labour supporterand as I have said my word will not be believed by you or some of the others who are trying to suggest that the Tories never said that they would repeal the act, I know them to be wrong as I witnessed them saying it with great disgust, whether they now think the same way who knows, we have no Idea what they think ,it depends which way the wind blows as to anything that they do, but that doesn't change the fact that they said it loudly and clearly.
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131:
"..it won't be long into a Conservative administration before people start to forget that the debt mountain is inherited from Labour, and start blaming the Tories for it."
*
I think you would be right if Michael Howard had won in 2005. But the amount of damage done by Labour in 13 years will be retold in history books and will certainly not be forgotten in one term.
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No one seems to get the point that these EDM's and amendment to bills and acts as they go through parliament are the things that give the loopholes that we get in laws that give the less than honorable away out
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133. At 3:06pm on 08 Jul 2009, yellowbelly1959 wrote:
Nice one York1900. You have just admitted that the minimum wage is responsible for driving thousands of low-paid jobs overseas where there is no National Minimum Wage equivalent.
By extension, what you are saying is that we must abolish the Minimum Wage to protect low-paid jobs in this country.
Thank you!
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No I am not saying is that we must abolish the Minimum Wage as there are allot of Minimum Wage jobs in this country that can not be moved abroad to be done
And what as been moved abroad is not liked by allot of the public and some companies are moving it back to this country as we get more vocal about not been able to understand some of the accents and we move our business to companies who employ UK staff
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David Cameron and the Conservatives collectively keeps gloating about the number of U-turns this government has made, but has anybody stopped to count the number of U-Turns David Cameron has made?
Bearing in mind he was the author of the most right wing manifesto the Conservatives ever mustered up, he stood on that platform at the last election and has now performed a complete circle.
This guy changes his mind as often as his boxer shorts & you can bet your life he will drop the minimum wage at the drop of a hat if he ever gets into power. The Conservative RW who he is a prisoner of will see to that make no mistake.
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137. At 3:27pm on 08 Jul 2009, york1900 wrote:
No one seems to get the point that these EDM's and amendment to bills and acts as they go through parliament are the things that give the loopholes that we get in laws that give the less than honorable away out
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Thing is York, most of those daft ideas from Torie as well as Labour backbenchers never see the light of day so rest assured none of them will be going through parliament.
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137 york1900
You said "No one seems to get the point that these EDM's and amendment to bills and acts as they go through parliament are the things that give the loopholes that we get in laws that give the less than honorable away out"
Absolutely wrong, I'm afraid. Motions of this type are passed about once in a blue moon, as you well know. Legal loopholes come from bad drafting.
Now stop changing the subject and admit that your claim that it is Conservative policy to remove the minimum wage was just plain wrong.
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My protest re the 10% cut was to resign from my job. I was working part-time for a small salary and drawing my state pension, so I decided that I wasn't going to give Gordon anymore tax. I am fortunate because I was in the financial position to be able to do so.
It is disgraceful that a party which is supposed to look after poorer working people should continue to apply this unfair tax.
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139. At 3:46pm on 08 Jul 2009, Jiminywicket wrote:
David Cameron and the Conservatives collectively keeps gloating about the number of U-turns this government has made, but has anybody stopped to count the number of U-Turns David Cameron has made?
Bearing in mind he was the author of the most right wing manifesto the Conservatives ever mustered up, he stood on that platform at the last election and has now performed a complete circle.
This guy changes his mind as often as his boxer shorts & you can bet your life he will drop the minimum wage at the drop of a hat if he ever gets into power. The Conservative RW who he is a prisoner of will see to that make no mistake.
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Thats a tad over the top me old matey ... but on uturns etc frankly they are all as bad as each other
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The best thing that could happen is that none of them are re-elected, from any party. They completely failed the people, they all betrayed the people, they are directly responsible for the current financial issues and let investors steal money from individual accounts with no accountability. The only message that should be sent is that the people expect better treatment and the influence of investors and bankers is clearly at the expense of the people and that can no longer be tolerated. May lose some good ones in the process, but they can all be replaced. If the voters do not send a clear message, it will all happen again.
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# Magic 136
History has proven # 131 to be correct, what has a tendency to happen is this;
The Conservatives will over-do things trying to look after the City and high earners, the front line services will fall into neglect once again, they will also tax middle earners harder to address the balance, unemployment will grow larger a lot more rapidly that at present.
There used to be a very old saying told to me by my Father and a dear friend has recently reminded me of it that the Conservatives are at their happiest when three men are chasing one job.
They are like Scorpions they cannot change their ways regardless of what the sweet talking do nothing Cameron has to say.
Even after 12 years people still have memories of the last time they were in power and they will keep reminding those who had never experienced them, just how bad it was.
Bear in mind a lot of the old Conservative MPs are leaving at the next election so the loyalty vote for the new MP will not be so high. And out they will go.
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york1900 126
Look at this from another angle the real minimum wage is zero, because if you cannot get a job then that is the true state of things.
As I go about my work I have come across workers doing cleaning jobs and all the menial work that our people will not do. I always make it my business to speak to these people as too many just pass them by as though they do not exist. That is another story however. A lot are foreign workers or older people doing these jobs for a little extra cash or because they enjoy working. The right to work is a bill that would protect these people in a sense to be able to work if they choose to, even if it is below the minimum wage. Market forces are pushing wages down anyway and as you have already said many jobs are going overseas. If we do not have a bill for the right to work people perhaps with a handicap would not get that little job they would like to do, but the employer can only pay them a small amount. Or the demand for unskilled workers would go down because it cannot be afforded to employ them. This then would deny them work they would like to do.
I do not want to see the minimum wage abolished because it is a good guide line to what should be paid. The Conservatives are certainly not proposing this to my knowledge. However I do not want to see people who want to make their contribution to society in their own way stopped from doing so because there are not the jobs due to the enforcement the minimum wage. The right to work is the best of both worlds to me.
What we should make sure of is that people doing these low income jobs pay no tax at all.
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141. At 3:55pm on 08 Jul 2009, jrperry
are passed about once in a blue moon
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The trouble with that is that they do point to how a party is likely to go if they get in to power when in the past they have said that they do not want the law
I have learnt from bitter experience that all party's will try to be all things to all men and we fall for it every time
I do not believe in unions even that I have had to be a member of a union to get the job
I am not a Labour supporter by any means but there are things in some of there policy's that have made things better for me and mine but saying that there are something that have not been as good for me
like I have to pay £300 to have a licence to work in my industry and have to have pay for medicals to prove to my employers that I am fit for the job and my job dose not pay much above the minimum wage but it is a job I enjoy doing
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138 yorkie
"And what as been moved abroad is not liked by allot of the public and some companies are moving it back to this country as we get more vocal about not been able to understand some of the accents and we move our business to companies who employ UK staff "
================
You do seem to be awfully confused by your statements about the minimum wage and its impact on the working practices of companies in the UK.
Your last comment was priceless with it's implication! - "British accents for British Call Centres!" - is this official New Labour Policy ?!?!?
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@Grandantidote 135
"I know them to be wrong as I witnessed them saying it with great disgust"
You've mentioned this a couple of times, that you saw them saying that they would repeal the act, but every single time neglect to mention where you winessed it. Until you can do so I'm afraid you cannot really put this forward as credible evidence.
And before you say it, as you inevitably will, I vote Liberal, and hate the Tories almost as much as I hate people trying to dismiss others with the catch all "I would expect a viewpoint like that from a Tory" comment
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To paraphrase Dr Who...."Don't you think he's looking tired?"
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128 Yellow Belly
perhaps you shoud try reading my post before making absurd observations
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144. At 4:11pm on 08 Jul 2009, ghostofsichuan wrote:
The best thing that could happen is that none of them are re-elected, from any party. They completely failed the people, they all betrayed the people, they are directly responsible for the current financial issues and let investors steal money from individual accounts with no accountability. The only message that should be sent is that the people expect better treatment and the influence of investors and bankers is clearly at the expense of the people and that can no longer be tolerated. May lose some good ones in the process, but they can all be replaced. If the voters do not send a clear message, it will all happen again
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I could not agree more with you
It is time to give them all there marching orders
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forgottenukcitizen 129
How right you are, I was only saying this the other day to another poster who thought it was alright for the younger generation to pay for this debt. 'Im Alright Jack' I have my pension and the benefit of good services. The young like me will most probably have to work until they are 70 or die working which ever comes first because this Government has destroyed private pensions. I will look forward to poor services and high taxation for years to come because of the Government debt. This will apply to young people who are not even of voting age, so are in no way responsible for this debt mountain or voting this Government in. The attitude is well I am alright who cares about future generations.
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145 jiminywicket
If as you say , and I hope you are correct, the Tories wil not get back in because of how bad they were last time, and I say Labour will not get back in because they have been equally as bad if not worse this time.
Any ideas on who will be forming the next govt ?
The above scenario is far from unlikely. Interesting times ahead.
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141. At 3:55pm on 08 Jul 2009, jrperry wrote:
137 york1900
You said "No one seems to get the point that these EDM's and amendment to bills and acts as they go through parliament are the things that give the loopholes that we get in laws that give the less than honorable away out"
Absolutely wrong, I'm afraid. Motions of this type are passed about once in a blue moon, as you well know. Legal loopholes come from bad drafting.
Now stop changing the subject and admit that your claim that it is Conservative policy to remove the minimum wage was just plain wrong.
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If you look at the number of Solicitors, barristers,QC's and Accountants in parliament one would think that they would go through laws to make sure that there is no loopholes in them
But history as shown us that is not bad drafting allways to blamed
it is that no one takes a proper look at it till it as become law and as been found to fail it's purpose
It can be as simple as one word add , missed out or in the wrong place to make a law fail
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"grandantidote wrote:
121 mark we
I am afraid we seem to be getting no where I have not at any time said that it is Tory policy now its just that several posters were asking for proof that they had said it, not of me but of York, I was merely saying that I clearly remember several Tories boasting about how they would repeal the minimum wage, which you seemed to agree with, and yet you say"
York's comment is that "the Tories have plans to scrap the minimum wage when they get in to power" which is present tense suggesting that if the Tories are elected NOW they will repeal the minimum wage (apparently this is based on a single EDM raised by a Tory back bencher which clearly says he is not calling for the minimum wage to be scrapped!)
It probably is true that in the past some Tories made statements that they would repeal the minimum wage. However, unless they are recent statements it can not be used as evidence of Tory policy.
"#As you can probably understand second hand information from someone who certainly appears to be a Labour Party supporter doesn't strike me as proof.
I am quite clearly a Labour supporterand as I have said my word will not be believed by you or some of the others who are trying to suggest that the Tories never said that they would repeal the act, I know them to be wrong as I witnessed them saying it with great disgust, whether they now think the same way who knows, we have no Idea what they think ,it depends which way the wind blows as to anything that they do, but that doesn't change the fact that they said it loudly and clearly."
Would you believe me if I told you I heard senior Tories say that they would keep the minimum wage without providing proof? (I haven't before you ask) So I guess it cuts both ways. Although, I expect you are correct that they made such promises in the past.
Cameron might have plans to repeal the minimum wage but he seems smart enough not to reveal his policies (why should he? The media are focused on Brown's failings why risk drawing their fire)
It seems we agree on the fact that the current Tory policy about the minimum wage has not publicly been announced - which would suggest that York is incorrectly stating that "the Tories have plans to scrap the minimum wage when they get in to power"
They may have HAD plans, but at the present we really don't know.
My guess is that if they do have plans we won't hear them spoken openly as it will be a vote loser.
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147. At 4:30pm on 08 Jul 2009, york1900 wrote:
141. At 3:55pm on 08 Jul 2009, jrperry
are passed about once in a blue moon
_________________________________________________________________________
The trouble with that is that they do point to how a party is likely to go if they get in to power when in the past they have said that they do not want the law
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they don't point to anything York, all it says as with everyone in any kind of job is that some people have crackpot ideas and the majority of the time they come to nothing because people realise they are daft ideas. I don't believe just because a few Torie backbenchers ( as do Labour also, although having said that most of their daft ideas do become law) decide to propose some daft idea that it is indicative of everyone in the party
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jiminywicket 145
Where have been for 12 years. It is Labour who have been looking after the City and allowing fat bonus payments and moved themselves close to the rich and famous. It is Labour by creating massive Government debt, which is going to cause unemployment to rise and services to be cut. It is Labour who have taxed the middle income families to death.
In fact it was Labour who caused it last time by bringing the Country to its knees in 1979 and left the Conservatives to clear up the mess.
Yes your right history does repeat itself.
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"jrperry wrote:
You said "No one seems to get the point that these EDM's and amendment to bills and acts as they go through parliament are the things that give the loopholes that we get in laws that give the less than honorable away out"
Absolutely wrong, I'm afraid. Motions of this type are passed about once in a blue moon, as you well know. Legal loopholes come from bad drafting."
Ironically bad drafting typically happens when laws are passed quickly because a government reacts rashly to an event.
So we can expect lots of new loopholes in the laws brought out about MP's expenses.
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145 just like the last bit of you post, was it 12 years you said? Well i would like to point out to you it will take the Conservatives more than that to sort out the problems nu labour have imposed on the British public and 12 years will seem like peanuts in comparison to the number of years in the history books that four generations will be asked to repay the debt they will have left behind.I had 13 good years under a Conservative administration with no regrets and i was a working man .
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146. At 4:20pm on 08 Jul 2009, Susan-Croft
Hear, hear!
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131. At 2:55pm on 08 Jul 2009, jrperry wrote:
124 sweetanybody
The worse the state of the economy, the worse the mess the Tories have to clear up after the election. Cameron is also wise enough to know that people have short memories and that it won't be long into a Conservative administration before people start to forget that the debt mountain is inherited from Labour, and start blaming the Tories for it.
In short, the Conservatives are hoping for economic recovery just as much as anyone else.
==============================================================
I wasn't suggesting that they don't want it to improve, just that it makes it harder for them to get elected if the economy recovers on Browns watch.
But you're right that whoever has to administor the medicine will take a degree of the blame for the illness - something brown seems to be rather aware of, hence his ability to continue to spend while sticking his fingers in his ears.
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"ghostworld wrote:
Thats a tad over the top me old matey ... but on uturns etc frankly they are all as bad as each other"
There is nothing wrong with a U-turn IF you are doing it because you realise you are going in the wrong direction. Being able to admit you were wrong is the sign of a strong leader.
The problem is when you are having to do a U-turn because the kids are fighting in the back.
At the moment Brown is U-turning because the kids are fighting but Cameron is U-turning because he is lost and really has no idea which way to go. Neither of which is a position of strength!
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jiminywicket 145
"...the Conservatives are at their happiest when three men are chasing one job."
The foolishness of that statement is remarkable. "Three men chasing one job", as a generality, can only be achieved in what amounts to being an economic slump. It means gross under-production, waste of resources, vast benefits expenditure, collapse of markets. In fact, it means no wealth for anyone. How you can state that as an ideal for any party is beyond me. What political fantasy world are you living in? What on earth are you thinking of?
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129 forgottenukcitizen
I am so glad that you are happy for me.I have no private pension.
#Perhaps you could spare a thought for my generation that cant retire until we are 67 now, or my children who cant retire until they are 69.
You know or you certainly should know that the retirement age has nothing to do with anyone party in this instance, its recognised by all paties that retirement age has to rise, as more and more people are living longer and healthier lives it means that the pensionable population is expanding and it cannot be supported by those within what we have always considered to be our working lifespan.
Many people have been crying out for years to be allowed to work beyond 65 and many are if I was fit enough I would be delighted to carry on working, so my friend this is not some wicked ploy by Labour to get pensioners to work longer, its what most people want and it isn't compulsory.
#I could go on about how Brown has ransacked the pension schemes to rob us of our futures so he can pay for a few peoples TV licenses etc now, but why should I depress myself further.
I am quite sure you mean well but its hardly a few TV licenses etc its benefitting thousands of pensioners and while you may justifiably be unhappy about the situation I am sure that you don't begrudge the help being given to the over 75s or do you.
#Yes,& how many years did it take to reinstate this link & how many years will it take to actually fully reinstate it?
2011 if I recall (but I stand to be corrected).
Hardly a lightening fast reaction from Bullet Brown was it?
Certainly a faster reaction than the previous conservative reaction which did nothing. the gap has been closing and will close by 2011 unless the Tories get in then you will never see it.
#Im resigned to the fact that the writings on the wall for my generation & we will either work until we die, or die in poverty.
Which ever comes first?
Well you are a sad old soul, your obviously a Tory sympathiser and you tories are sure that they will make the next government ,yet you have not the slightest expectation that your life will get better seems to me we both agree that life will get no better under Cameron.
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1. At 4:51pm on 08 Jul 2009, grandantidote wrote:
128 Yellow Belly
perhaps you shoud try reading my post before making absurd observations
===
I did read it. You said:
"The actual proof to me is that I heard several Tories suggest that thats what they would do but you won't find it in Hansard, and you obviously are not likely to accept my word even if you probably know it to be true."
So because you seem to remember several (unnamed) Tories suggest that's what they would do, it becomes fact to you, maybe the gospel truth even. When in fact, it's just hearsay, like I said. There is no evidence it is official Tory policy, as you well know.
Now, how about Labour doubling the income tax rate for the lowest paid, and putting a tax on jobs from next April, not very socialist, is it?
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155. At 5:12pm on 08 Jul 2009, york1900 wrote:
141. At 3:55pm on 08 Jul 2009, jrperry wrote:
137 york1900
You said "No one seems to get the point that these EDM's and amendment to bills and acts as they go through parliament are the things that give the loopholes that we get in laws that give the less than honorable away out"
Absolutely wrong, I'm afraid. Motions of this type are passed about once in a blue moon, as you well know. Legal loopholes come from bad drafting.
Now stop changing the subject and admit that your claim that it is Conservative policy to remove the minimum wage was just plain wrong.
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If you look at the number of Solicitors, barristers,QC's and Accountants in parliament one would think that they would go through laws to make sure that there is no loopholes in them
But history as shown us that is not bad drafting allways to blamed
it is that no one takes a proper look at it till it as become law and as been found to fail it's purpose
It can be as simple as one word add , missed out or in the wrong place to make a law fail
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Most laws are drafted and worded in such a way that it can penalise otherwise decent people ... you only have to look at the anti terrorism laws etc .. the laws are vague for a purpose
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122 quiteoldinthetooth
yes I have spent most of my life in the boatbuilding trade but unlike you mostly self employed and always with sailing craft with one or two exceptions.
I do remember the Pegasus and a fine craft they were, I have never worked on any though but a I have worked on a number of MTBs and air sea rescue craft also one or two E boats they were all fine craft and the work of craftsmen but alas those workmen are a dying breed,
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133 yellow belly
Your mind works in mysterious ways.
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153. At 4:55pm on 08 Jul 2009, Susan-Croft wrote:
forgottenukcitizen 129
How right you are, I was only saying this the other day to another poster who thought it was alright for the younger generation to pay for this debt. 'Im Alright Jack' I have my pension and the benefit of good services. The young like me will most probably have to work until they are 70 or die working which ever comes first because this Government has destroyed private pensions. I will look forward to poor services and high taxation for years to come because of the Government debt. This will apply to young people who are not even of voting age, so are in no way responsible for this debt mountain or voting this Government in. The attitude is well I am alright who cares about future generations.
===
The absurdity is that under NewLabour we will have to work until we are 70, and at the same time young people leaving education are unable to find jobs, so what is Labour's solution? Raise the school minimum leaving age to 18, shunt more and more people off to University on irrelevant degree courses, encouraged by the latest wheeze of no tuition fee courses for students who live at home. Then, after they leave university with a worthless degree, and cannot find a job because all the 60-70 year olds are still working, they are placed on a government training scheme or voluntary work until they are 25.
Madness!
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#165 grandantidote
Life will not get any better whoever gets elected because Nu Labour over 12 years has destroyed any chance of a full recovery. Mass immigration, Pensions decimated, political correctness, Education failure,EU surrender and a return to boom and bust.
"Whiter then white" - what a sick joke.
"I always tell the truth" - vomit making.
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sc @ 146
I do not want to see the minimum wage abolished because it is a good guideline to what should be paid
not a "guideline" Susan, it's the law - if there's an opt out (via this Right to Work wheeze you're talking about) then it DOES become more like a guideline and is, to a very great extent, abolished - best to be clear about things, I always feel, and I know you feel that too
hey btw ... do you believe we, as a country, can afford good public services? ... TQ
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166 yellow belly
#So because you seem to remember several (unnamed) Tories suggest that's what they would do, it becomes fact to you, maybe the gospel truth even. When in fact, it's just hearsay, like I said. There is no evidence it is official Tory policy, as you well know.
if I heard them say it then it isn't hearsay to me,if your telling me that everything I hear or even see people say is hearsay then its a waste of time any of us being on this blog, in your eyes everything that we hear people say is hearsay and we must'nt believe them , and since we are not privy to every thing that is being said then we can believe nothing. I merely recounted that at the time of the introduction of the minimum wage the Tories were threatening doom and gloom even most die hard Tories would admit to that, and I will repeat once more just in case the message isn't getting through I did not say at anytime that its Tory policy right now, I dont know what Tory policies are I am not sure they do and I am damn sure that you don't and if you do its only hear say.
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69. At 5:47pm on 08 Jul 2009, grandantidote wrote:
133 yellow belly
Your mind works in mysterious ways.
===
I'm sorry it was too complicated for you. York1900 blames the minimum wage for driving low paid jobs overseas, citing call centre jobs, whilst at the same time defending the minimum wage. It is his mind that works in mysterious ways. That is before he got all racist by suggesting that we can't understand foreign call centre workers' accents.
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#153 Susan-Croft
I'm not sure it will be all that bad in the future. I for one have no intention of paying for public service retirees on gold-plated pensions, second rate front-line services or our disgusting level of national debt. I think it is likely there will be a general 'rebellion' by the young in a few years as they start to realise the predicament that has been forced upon them. So, counter-intuitively, what we may find is the older generation abandoned to poverty as their pensions are cut to the bone, services collapse because no one feels they provide value for money anyway and foreign creditors snubbed. Assuming we can hold off the Chinese at the chunnel, we may be able to boast that we've never have had it so good! Gordon Brown, bless your cotton socks... funny how Labour policy works out, isn't it?
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168 grand antidote Very fine memories indeed the keel laying in Southampton and the surrounding areas was common fold but i agree with you sorry as it might be the craftsmanship has now lost its way how sad?perhaps we shall put it down to bad government policies after all the school leavers now days cant even read or write so what chance do they have the use of the adz might come in handy?
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145 Quiteoldinthetooth
#.I had 13 good years under a Conservative administration with no regrets and i was a working man .
The operative words, I was a working man, you were lucky thats why you think it was great under the Tories, I can remember in the eighties and the nineties when on the news programmes there were men, girls, and young students interviewed practically every night telling all how they had applied for fifty sixty and somtimes ninety jobs and often didn't even get a reply, college lads jockying to get a job on the bins, so it wasn't that the Tories were doing you a favour, it was that your were in a trade that was doing well overseas.
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171 kcband8
"Life will not get any better whoever gets elected because Nu Labour over 12 years has destroyed any chance of a full recovery. Mass immigration, Pensions decimated, political correctness, Education failure,EU surrender and a return to boom and bust."
==============================================
I agree with the gist of what you are saying. New Labour has dramatically changed Britain over the past 12 years, and much of it is not for the better.
In fact, I would say that what needs to be done in many areas to improve things is to actually undo, remove or reverse what New Labour have done, though this may not be possible. eg pensions - difficut to see how the damage can be reversed.
Political correctness is good area for reversal, but unfortunately a huge industry has grown in this area under New Labour. Likewise the Human Rights Act - a big industry now with lots of money to be made for the legal profession, whilst primarily protecting people on the fringes or outside the law. It simply has to go ! The immigration and political asylum are other growth areas industry wise under New Labour.
We need a Common Sense Revolution, though much of damage is irreversible, I hope that we can takes some steps to recover as anation. But it won't happen under the current government ....
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73. At 6:04pm on 08 Jul 2009, grandantidote wrote:
166 yellow belly
#So because you seem to remember several (unnamed) Tories suggest that's what they would do, it becomes fact to you, maybe the gospel truth even. When in fact, it's just hearsay, like I said. There is no evidence it is official Tory policy, as you well know.
if I heard them say it then it isn't hearsay to me,
===
Grand, that's a classic, even by your standards. "If I heard them say it then it isn't hearsay to me."
Just to help you out as you seem a tad confused:
"Hearsay (uncountable)
information that was heard by one person about another"
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I'm starting to wonder if the Labour party is paying people to blog on this site. The same old names seem to have nothing else to do.
Lets see who can it be??
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Re: 145 Jiminywicket
While it is true that Conservatives of old have been more at home with the Free - Market whereby if needs be there are 3 People chasing every Job vacancy while at the same time pandering to the every wishes of their Elite Freinds.
However, it the shape of David Cameron, we are now being lead to believe that there is some New found Conservative vision in prospect for the future after the next General Election should the Tory's win.
This idea that any Tory would assist in making life better for any of the Working Classes is by any measure laughable, for this so called New vision would be lucky if it held out for a Day nevermind a Parliament.
The problem is that we have a so-called Labour Government that for all its worth, is also NOT able to turn things around in favour of the many, while showing by default that they are really no better than what we have come to believe that can "ONLY" happen under a Conservative Government.
Therefore, the only real way forward is to create New Parties, and Politics that is more in-tune with the formation of a fair Society, and unfortunately this spell the Death March for both Nu-Labour and the Cons, whereby their cosy life-styles of Career Politic and One-Upmanship with full time Spinning is finally bringing about their down-fall.
THE SOONER THE BETTER, we Vote for a clear out of 650 Political has-beens the better things will get, for lets face it things cannot get much worse than under the Political Clowns we currently have representing us at Westminster.
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177. At 6:19pm on 08 Jul 2009, grandantidote wrote:
145 Quiteoldinthetooth
#.I had 13 good years under a Conservative administration with no regrets and i was a working man .
The operative words, I was a working man, you were lucky thats why you think it was great under the Tories, I can remember in the eighties and the nineties when on the news programmes there were men, girls, and young students interviewed practically every night telling all how they had applied for fifty sixty and somtimes ninety jobs and often didn't even get a reply, college lads jockying to get a job on the bins, so it wasn't that the Tories were doing you a favour, it was that your were in a trade that was doing well overseas.
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To be honest Grand, that is more or less what is happening now.. there was an article the other day saying how college grads are taking any job they can get bins or otherwise
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165. At 5:33pm on 08 Jul 2009, grandantidote wrote:
129 forgottenukcitizen
I am so glad that you are happy for me.I have no private pension.
#Perhaps you could spare a thought for my generation that cant retire until we are 67 now, or my children who cant retire until they are 69.
You know or you certainly should know that the retirement age has nothing to do with anyone party in this instance, its recognised by all paties that retirement age has to rise, as more and more people are living longer and healthier lives it means that the pensionable population is expanding and it cannot be supported by those within what we have always considered to be our working lifespan.
Many people have been crying out for years to be allowed to work beyond 65 and many are if I was fit enough I would be delighted to carry on working, so my friend this is not some wicked ploy by Labour to get pensioners to work longer, its what most people want and it isn't compulsory.
#I could go on about how Brown has ransacked the pension schemes to rob us of our futures so he can pay for a few peoples TV licenses etc now, but why should I depress myself further.
I am quite sure you mean well but its hardly a few TV licenses etc its benefitting thousands of pensioners and while you may justifiably be unhappy about the situation I am sure that you don't begrudge the help being given to the over 75s or do you.
#Yes,& how many years did it take to reinstate this link & how many years will it take to actually fully reinstate it?
2011 if I recall (but I stand to be corrected).
Hardly a lightening fast reaction from Bullet Brown was it?
Certainly a faster reaction than the previous conservative reaction which did nothing. the gap has been closing and will close by 2011 unless the Tories get in then you will never see it.
#Im resigned to the fact that the writings on the wall for my generation & we will either work until we die, or die in poverty.
Which ever comes first?
Well you are a sad old soul, your obviously a Tory sympathiser and you tories are sure that they will make the next government ,yet you have not the slightest expectation that your life will get better seems to me we both agree that life will get no better under Cameron.
_________________________________________________________________________
Over the years I have paid in various pension schemes and every government as found away to make them worth less and less when I retire
The amount of money I could of saved outside these schemes of my own accord would of given me a better retirement pension that what
I will get in 2021 on forecasts given by all the company pensions providers of my pensions
The only good thing I did was not move my pensions in to one company pension scheme
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"grandantidote wrote:
Well you are a sad old soul, your obviously a Tory sympathiser and you tories are sure that they will make the next government ,yet you have not the slightest expectation that your life will get better seems to me we both agree that life will get no better under Cameron."
Life almost certainly won't get any better under Cameron (or the Lib Dems) but hopefully a change of government will stop things from getting any worse, which from my experience is the case under New Labour.
I am paying higher taxes and seem to be getting less services for my money (but then I am not on the New Labour "nice" list - single male living alone with no children aka cash cow)
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I guess it's getting too late to expect another post from Nic today. On the Daily Politics (PMQ reserve team), he commented that MPs looked tired and reporters were knackered as well... Poor souls.
(BTW, Mods, that was his choice of words on BBC1, so I guess not too strong for this channel?)
So I guess no anaylsis of the political differences between Government and Opposition in the approach to managing the financial services sector. Shame.
Interesting that the Treasury Document didn't seem to include a chart to show the massive rise in money poured into the housing market as mortgages. HoCommons site has some stuff sourced from the BoE that shows, from 1997 to 2008, there was almost 3 times (OK 289 percent) increase in loans. National Statistics indicate wages rose by 50 percent over the same period...
Anyone guess why house prices raced up so fast?
Anyone wonder whether nobody in Government thought allowing money to slosh around like that made any REAL sense? Or that it suggested a truly growing real economy?
Ah well. Shame that there's been no comment on the state of the Defence budget. Government figures for departmental spensing show that, in REAL terms (inflation adjusted), the MoD will have almost exactly the same in 2010 as they had 8 years ago. So that's a major surge in spending to protect our brave troops? No wonder the troop transport aircraft fleet is in dire straits.
No doubt Brown will get the crofters in the islands to knit more body armour, since Harris Tweed is out of fashion.
(BTW. Daily Politics was a bit boring, so for the last few minutes I switched to Channel 4. I paint a bit and they had a prog called Life Class: Today's Nude. Thought it may be good to watch an artist struggling to capture the human form (HONESTLY!!!). What we got was a nude moving a bit from time to time to ease her pose, while a bloke talked off screen. Spotted the edge of his easel twice, until the end of his show, when he decided that his sketch wasn't up to much, so he'd throw it away. Poor girl. I've no idea why a public service broadcaster couldn't be honest and just call the prog Today's Nude Totty.
Life's a strain! But it's on again tomorrow (1230), so I'll have to go shopping.)
Wonder if we'll get another post from Nic tommorow?
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178. At 6:20pm on 08 Jul 2009, StrictlyPickled wrote:
171 kcband8
"Life will not get any better whoever gets elected because Nu Labour over 12 years has destroyed any chance of a full recovery. Mass immigration, Pensions decimated, political correctness, Education failure,EU surrender and a return to boom and bust."
==============================================
Political correctness is good area for reversal, but unfortunately a huge industry has grown in this area under New Labour. Likewise the Human Rights Act - a big industry now with lots of money to be made for the legal profession, whilst primarily protecting people on the fringes or outside the law. It simply has to go ! The immigration and political asylum are other growth areas industry wise under New Labour.
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I'm sure you didn't mean it to come across the way it did so apologies if i appear to be rude.The human rights act is ( IMHO) essential and is something i will heartily give Labour credit for, unfortuantely it is a much maligned act and is exploited for the wrong reasons. We need to keep the act but make sure it is used for the purpose it was meant for.
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180. At 6:26pm on 08 Jul 2009, skynine wrote:
I'm starting to wonder if the Labour party is paying people to blog on this site. The same old names seem to have nothing else to do.
Lets see who can it be??
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Well my user name crops up a lot, but i certainly don't support labour
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"sagamix wrote:
hey btw ... do you believe we, as a country, can afford good public services? ... TQ"
Considering we are paying through the nose for public services which are lacking in major areas I would say "No, we can't"
But that maybe because large amounts of money in the public sector goes to IT projects which rarely work properly (because the government choose the same contractors who have failed previously!) and public sector pensions both of which cut into the budget and stop the money getting to the front line.
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"grandantidote wrote:
I can remember in the eighties and the nineties when on the news programmes there were men, girls, and young students interviewed practically every night telling all how they had applied for fifty sixty and somtimes ninety jobs and often didn't even get a reply"
The same thing happened to me when I lost my IT job when the dotcom bubble burst. I went to dozens of interviews only to be told that they were giving the job to someone more experienced who were dropping their wage demands just to get a job.
Even years later my basic salary is only slightly higher then it was back then.
From what I understand from taliking to people who have lost their jobs or recently graduated the same thing is happening.
If you are retired then you are lucky, my sister left University and owes more money then our parents spent buying the house we grew up in!
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177 GA
"working man, you were lucky thats why you think it was great ..... I can remember in the eighties and the nineties when on the news programmes there were men, girls, and young students interviewed practically every night telling all how they had applied for fifty sixty and somtimes ninety jobs and often didn't even get a reply, college lads jockying to get a job on the bins, so it wasn't that the Tories were doing you a favour, it was that your were in a trade that was doing well overseas."
==============================================
As much as you like to remind everyone about the events of 25 years ago, your comment is actually a very accurate summary (surprising for your one of your posts) of what is actually happening now. Unemployment is at a 12 year high and rising. This website and the news actually have job trackers updated each day with news of job losses.
It is ironic that your description of the bad old days is so relevant today, though I suspect that this irony is lost on you.
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181 LondonHarris
"This idea that any Tory would assist in making life better for any of the Working Classes is by any measure laughable..." Your ignorance of history is absolutely remarkable, alarming, indeed.
Which party brought in.... slum clearance, widows and OAPs' pensions, the factories act, closure of the workhouses (just to name a few)?
I suggest you scrap your post 181 completely, and start again. Frankly, if your political vision can only be supported by completely re-writing history, then it isn't worth bothering with.
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177 grandantidote I couldn't agree with you more i was lucky to have employment in all that time but remember i had an apprenticeship for my given profession, and you know as i do they weren't given out with Christmas crackers,you had to earn them.With the education standards today what chance do you think those young people could demand from any employer when they cant spell or add up for example. Was this not one of nulabours manifesto policies to make sure every young person had a good education to enable them to endure a good working life there after, and flooding the market with foriegn nationals don't help matters either A young person was absolutely spell bound that i could do sums in my head without the use of a calculator What chance did they have?
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186 GW
"The human rights act is ( IMHO) essential and is something i will heartily give Labour credit for, unfortuantely it is a much maligned act and is exploited for the wrong reasons. We need to keep the act but make sure it is used for the purpose it was meant for."
============================================
I'm not sure about it being essential, but I agree it is mis-used in ways never intended, but the fact remains that it causes problems for society (IMHO) which outweigh any benefits to most ordinary people. Exactly how do most ordinary people benefit under the HRA since 1997 or whenever ?
There is no chance of it being used properly, and it is big business now, mainly using taxpayers money to fund its activities.
I would like to see it replaced with something like the touted Bill of Rights, which would be tailored more to what is actually needed - whatever that may be - and less open to abuse.
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anybody @ 124
While I don't agree with Saga on many things, the point he's making is that if the economy improves before an election, then Brown will take the credit and that will be bad for the Clowns. Pretty obvious really
thank you sweetie! - sad but true, I'm afraid - there's nothing the Tories would like more than another million or so people losing their jobs by Christmas - but that's politics for you, sure I'd feel the same in their position - would be naive, and a little self righteous, to get too angry about it - you certainly won't hear too many complaints from a floating voter like me ... I'll leave that to the Labour diehards ... but let's remember that the same reasoning applies to Brown doing everything with one eye (whoops!) on the Election - i.e. of course he is, and it's nothing to be overly concerned about
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159. At 5:17pm on 08 Jul 2009, Mark_WE wrote:
"jrperry wrote:
You said "No one seems to get the point that these EDM's and amendment to bills and acts as they go through parliament are the things that give the loopholes that we get in laws that give the less than honorable away out"
Absolutely wrong, I'm afraid. Motions of this type are passed about once in a blue moon, as you well know. Legal loopholes come from bad drafting."
Ironically bad drafting typically happens when laws are passed quickly because a government reacts rashly to an event.
So we can expect lots of new loopholes in the laws brought out about MP's expenses.
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Well the new rules could send an MP to jail for a Year where if we had done the same we would of got a lot more jail time
The proof is here http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmbills/121/09121.1-6.html
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177. At 6:19pm on 08 Jul 2009, grandantidote wrote:
145 Quiteoldinthetooth
#.I had 13 good years under a Conservative administration with no regrets and i was a working man .
The operative words, I was a working man, you were lucky thats why you think it was great under the Tories, I can remember in the eighties and the nineties when on the news programmes there were men, girls, and young students interviewed practically every night telling all how they had applied for fifty sixty and somtimes ninety jobs and often didn't even get a reply, college lads jockying to get a job on the bins, so it wasn't that the Tories were doing you a favour, it was that your were in a trade that was doing well overseas.
===
Exactly like this then:
"Experts are predicting doom and gloom for those graduating in the summer of 2009.
Nearly half of all firms will not be looking to hire graduates or school-leavers in the months ahead, a report by the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development suggests.
The government is even urging graduates to consider working abroad to avoid the worst of the recession.
This advice was, maybe surprisingly, backed by the National Union of Students and handed out recently on leaflets at universities across the UK.
Official figures from the Office for National Statistics, specially analysed for the BBC, show that 36,000 students who graduated in 2008 were still unemployed in the first quarter of 2009.
That figure makes up just over 12% of all those who graduated in 2008.
Add to that all those in temporary, part-time and other 'non-graduate' jobs and you've already got tens of thousands of educated youngsters chasing a shrinking graduate jobs market.
That compares to an unemployment rate for all young people between 18 and 24 of 16.1% in the three months to the end of March, a sharp increase from 12.6% just one year ago.
Experts indeed predict there will be a 5% drop in jobs for new graduates this summer."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8078034.stm
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52. At 00:56am on 08 Jul 2009, spoilyourballot wrote:
...I wish that one day we'll give up our security council place, bring our troops home, take care of our elderley and infirm, make our feckless work, control the idiots in the city and make a country that is safe, fair and pleasant to live in...
Please can we also have quieter pubs and test cricket on freeview? Perfect world...
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"york1900 wrote:
Well the new rules could send an MP to jail for a Year where if we had done the same we would of got a lot more jail time"
Well I am a cynic so I will believe it when I see it :)
And by see it I mean when an MP goes to jail for fraud and not when a MP gets charged and gets off thanks to the expensive lawyer they hired using their expense money!
There should be enough evidence to put some MPs to jail already but the police aren't investigating using the existing laws, can we really expect them to act using the new laws?
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"197. At 7:39pm on 08 Jul 2009, Its_an_Outrage wrote:
Please can we also have quieter pubs and test cricket on freeview? Perfect world..."
You spelt football wrong ;)
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saga 194
The idea that the Conservatives are rubbing their hands in glee at either the current state of the economy or the prospect of it getting even worse is quite ridiculous. The worse it gets, the worse a mess they will have to deal with following the election. Additionally, it is inevitable that, with the fickle and short-memoried nature of the electorate (to say nothing of the propaganda that the future opposition will puff out in due course), the Conservatives will pretty quickly be deemed to "own" the mess themselves. Frankly, the Conservatives are as keen on economic recovery as anyone else, for all the best reasons and the political reasons too.
But more to the short term, I'm interested in your sudden transition from overtly Brownite blogger (remarkably on-message too, as we discussed before) to "floating voter". Do you feel you might have anything you would like to share with us?
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Surely the issue is MPs who are in disgrace have an opportunity to prove that they have some principle some backbone and some understanding that they are in parliament to represent the substantial electorate in preference to self service.
However given the opportunity to strike a blow for all society they bottle it to toe the party line under threats from whips sustained by the supercilium that they will be sanctioned. Instead of raising the standard for a fairer sustainable socio-economic future system
However our distinguished blogers ignore this issue to argue their own corner on another none issue minimum pay and party stupidity it is no wonder our politicians miss the point when we spend all our time shooting wide of it too.
For those who like to play with words and look for hidden meaning take all those words beginning with S in this post which when reordered they may find with just a couple of conjunctives make an interesting sentence of their own.
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A Government with a majority of over 60 should not have to contemplate the thought of being defeated on a motion as important as the Budget. The fact that backbench MPs were able to instil fear of defeat into the Government says a fair amount of the health and discipline in the governing party. Whether or not the opposition parties voted against the Government on principle or politics (with this Parliament, no-one really believes what politicians say anymore) is beside the point. Brown APPEARS weak and indecisive. It no longer matters what he says or does, people have stopped listening. Yep, you'll get the core voters out (same for any party) but the swing-voters will need a lot more convincing to return Brown for a Fourth Term. Frankly, if he is re-elected, what will Labour bring to the table? This Government is exhausted after 12 years in Office, hopelessly split and doesn't have a clue what way to go. Endless policies are announced to 'save' Britain, only to be denounced when they cannot withstand scrutiny. If 2010 is bad for Labour, another five years will be even worse. The Tories learnt that the hard way with their victory in 1992.
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199 Mark_WE
Could you please explain how a quiet pub and football, soccer or rugby, go together. Jumping up and knocking the tables over, spilling beer over everyone and screaming like lunatics when a goal/try is scored.
Now cricket, a genteel well played Sir gently muttered over a G&T that is what Its_an_Outrage meant, surely ?
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Re: 191 jrperry.
You know its funny, for everytime I read comments like yours whereby either someone complains or agrees that Labour did this or the Conservatives did that in the past to help People, I always remind myself that Britain is only but one country in the World, and for all our worths we are now like it or not a Member of the EEC Family.
Other blogs will tell you that here in the U.K. we are over-burdened with CCTV Cameras almost to the point of becoming a Police State, unlike the rest of the EEC, and even others will argue and inform that here also in the U.K. our Pensioner Citizens are the POOREST Paid in the EEC.
Add to this the fact that your once Conservative Selling - Off of Council Housing for a quick buck is in part driving the needs for more Social Housing for both large and single Families to prevent Children from going into Local Authority Care.
So to advoid this happening I would have to believe that any NEXT Conservative Government would be increasing Public Expenditure across the board just to stand still.
But then both Conservatives and Nu-Labour supporters don't live in the REAL World, and prefer to be reminded of Days of Old when they then once also kept Millions in this Nation just on, or above the Poverty Line.
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#72 there has been rubbish governments, i wasnt all that with thatchers crowd freezing child benefits for about 200 years,and selling off council houses,but compared to this bloke brown she was pretty good.As a labour voter all my life I just dont know who to vote for to be honest,probobly the bnp will be my best bet.Anything but this awfull government.
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Oh dear Nick, what a sorry pundit you are looking. Everytime your pronouncements come to nothing you immediately come out with excuses of dire deeds etc. I would expect the BBC to be a bit more ready to say sorry for wrongly informing us, after all it is supposed to provide news not sorry views. I do wish for the byegone days when Alistair Campbell was kicking the medias collective backsides. It was so much more interesting then.
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165. grandantidote.
Sir, Firstly Im not a Tory sympathiser (ouch that hurts), & a quick click would enable you to read previous correspondences to enlighten you on this.
Yours is a knee jerk reaction from any hard-core party fan that disagrees with what somebody else may say.
Im surprised that you can tell any difference between Tory & Labour, because I cant & Im not alone on that one.
Just because I, & many others, find Brown despicable, does not make me a Tory boy by default.
Yes, im fully aware of the damage the Tories did to the company & state pension schemes as well, but that does not mean that Brown should of followed suit & stuck the boot in still further to make matters worse.
That goes for the 10 percent tax band as well.
Just because the Tories would probably not of introduced it, does not give Brown an excuse to remove it.
With regards to the economy, private pensions, state pensions etc, you obviously realise that we have major problems on our hands & these are only going to get worse regardless of which party gets in.
I shall not bore you with the baby boomer effect or concern you with the increasing burden of debt the children will have to face since Brown & company decided to place huge University debts (which are going to increase) on them that you or I didnt have to shoulder (I was fortunate to get a proper Apprenticeship, not the silly Blair / Brown version).
Suffice to say, they will not have much money available to help support me when I retire & thats the way it is.
They will be too busy repaying student loans, ridiculous mortgages & high taxes.
What you fail to realise is that the golden age of pensions is now over (well for me it is any way).
And lets not even start to go into the huge debt levels of Public sector pension schemes that we will all have to pay towards if the problem is to be resolved.
I can assure you that the main reason people want to work beyond retirement age are because they need the money, not because they fancy hanging around Asda meeting & greeting & to get out a little more.
This is a sign of things to come, but we cant even get enough jobs for the current population, let alone for my generation when we retire.
Sorry to hear about your health dear chap, but what makes you think Im going to be so healthy that I can continue to work past 65? Not in my line of work.
Things are catching up with me as it is & I will not have a choice when I retire because it has already been made for me by the Government & Im sure it will increase again.
They lied about me retiring at 65 when I started working, so why not lie again regarding 67?
Gosh, I honestly didnt realise that you had to wait until 75 to get a free TV license.
Why not 65 hey?
Ive no problems with that or any other service thats given, as long as its there for me when I retire, but will it?
Cant complain about the current pensioners such as yourself getting your monies worth, or else Mum & Dad (who are still alive & worked most their lives) will give me a sore ear.
I would make the most of it as well, because most political & economic analysts agree that there are going to be major cuts to spending that will affect us all regardless of whether we are retired or not.
Dads a life long Labour supporter, but even he can see that what a mess Brown has made of things (& hes lost out over Mr 10 per cents decision as well).
He also realises that the chances of another Labour Government are pie in the sky & worries about the future under a Tory administration.
You say, seems to me we both agree that life will get no better under Cameron.
I say, we agree on something here. Amen to that one.
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186. At 6:43pm on 08 Jul 2009, ghostworld wrote:
178. At 6:20pm on 08 Jul 2009, StrictlyPickled wrote:
171 kcband8
"Life will not get any better whoever gets elected because Nu Labour over 12 years has destroyed any chance of a full recovery. Mass immigration, Pensions decimated, political correctness, Education failure,EU surrender and a return to boom and bust."
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Political correctness is good area for reversal, but unfortunately a huge industry has grown in this area under New Labour. Likewise the Human Rights Act - a big industry now with lots of money to be made for the legal profession, whilst primarily protecting people on the fringes or outside the law. It simply has to go ! The immigration and political asylum are other growth areas industry wise under New Labour.
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I'm sure you didn't mean it to come across the way it did so apologies if i appear to be rude.The human rights act is ( IMHO) essential and is something i will heartily give Labour credit for, unfortuantely it is a much maligned act and is exploited for the wrong reasons. We need to keep the act but make sure it is used for the purpose it was meant for.
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the two bits of law I will defended to the death are The Working Time Regulations 1998 and the Minimum wage as both have done more for the working man and woman
I worked for a company who use both of these to get rid of staff as the company relied on staff working more than 40 hours a week
They did it this way those who wanted to only work a maximum of 40 hours a week where given just enough hours to stop them from been better off on the dole
And all those who had agreed to work more got more hours than they knew what to do with
As a result there was more absenteeism at weekends when we need the extra staff and the boss would ring round staff to take extra hours and seeing how many on day off where prepared to work there day off
I was one who did not to need to work more than 40 hours but did not suffer from the system employed by the boss because he new I would give up one or two of my 4 days off a week if it came to it
This give the company the right to fire staff for bad time keeping and most of the staff absent at the weekend where those who where on 40 hour week
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201 Hack-round
The party officianados are entitled to their opinions however wrong they may be. And some are fun to read.
What they forget, perhaps have never recognized, is that all politicians of whater shade are as bad as each other.
True some may start out with good intentions but are soon ground down or whipped into line by the party machines and sooner rather than later MPs become self serving. In it for the power , the travel , the cash and anything else that they can get for themselves.
The only time they give half a toss for you and me when an election is due and then they promise the earth and deliver nothing.
This time, I pray,thanks to expenses and 10p tax type disgraces, the whole stinking lot of them have blown it and we just might see an extraodinary result on election night with indepedents by the truck load being returned. How a govt is then formed I do not know but could it be any worse than the current red or blue regimes we have suffered now and in the past ?
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jrp @ duecento
the Conservatives are as keen on economic recovery as anyone else
yes ... but as those old music hall guys (like St Augustine) always used to say, it's all about The Timing ... "oh Lord, give us recovery but don't give it yet!"
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sagamix 172
Your post just epitomises Labour for me. No one is allowed a choice. It must be legisation there can be no compromises no matter who it affects. You would rather see the old lady who enjoys her job or the person who has a handicap and has a little job they enjoy not work, just so you can have your minimum wage set in stone. Even though they may prefer to work and it is slightly less money.
People these days are so blind to other opinions. 'The right to work' is a pragmatic bill that gives flexibility. There are already people working for less than the minimum wage because they want to, because they would rather work than not, this should be their choice.
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198. At 7:53pm on 08 Jul 2009, Mark_WE wrote
There should be enough evidence to put some MPs to jail already but the police aren't investigating using the existing laws, can we really expect them to act using the new laws?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes we can as the punishments are so soft for them
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van persie @ 205
I just don't know who to vote for, to be honest - probably the BNP will be my best bet
no babe, please don't do that ... they are ugly and racist ... you'll feel bad about yourself
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yellowbelly1959 170
Madness indeed, and another lost generation.
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209. At 8:48pm on 08 Jul 2009, xTunbridge
____________________________________________________
I would agree with you more that independents can not make any worse mess of things that the TORIES and LABOUR have done over the decades
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"xTunbridge wrote:
199 Mark_WE
Could you please explain how a quiet pub and football, soccer or rugby, go together. Jumping up and knocking the tables over, spilling beer over everyone and screaming like lunatics when a goal/try is scored."
Well my feeling would be that if football was available on freeview there would be no need to show the matches in pubs :)
So we have quiet pubs without football and homes with football... simples :)
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216 Mark_WE
Ok, with you on that. Cant get freeview where I am tho?
Well sometimes you can. If the wind blows or its hot or if its pancake day you might not. Or if it is working it pixilates when the central heating kicks in etc etc . But that is another subject.
The home watching sounds fine.
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van persie @ 205
I just don't know who to vote for, to be honest - probobly the BNP will be my best bet
don't do that, babe ... you'll feel bad about yourself
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susan @ 211
I'm surprised you feel that the issue of little old ladies and/or handicapped people working for therapeutic reasons is such as to merit the effective abolition of the minimum wage - each to her own, I guess
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Last word from me for now GOVERNMENT NOT DEFEATED Shame its a pity they were then all the blogers on here could have a very large beer? what you say nick the drinks are on you CHEERS.
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218. At 9:34pm on 08 Jul 2009, sagamix wrote:
"don't do that, babe ... you'll feel bad about yourself"
No we wont, madam.
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220. At 9:44pm on 08 Jul 2009, quietoldinthetooth wrote:
"Last word from me for now...."
Hallelujah!
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#205
Like you I dont know who to vote for come election day,and I think many more people feel the same.The great sell off of council houses by Thatcher
was plain stupid,as evidenced by the shortage of social housing now.That
fact coupled with the huge influx of immigrants is where the BNP will win
votes at the next election.People still believe that migrants are given
priority when it comes to housing which was the reason behind the research
carried out for the Equality and Human Rights Commission,to "dispel the myth"that migrants jumped the queue.As expected they conclude that all is
fair,but one little fact caught my eye,the uptake for social housing by
Somalians is 82%.
I may be unsure of who to vote for at the next election,but I am very sure that I shall not be voting for Labour!
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#194 Saga
"you certainly won't hear too many complaints from a floating voter like me ..."
Uh Huh?
Somehow guess you have never floated over the centre line - CTP or not.
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reg @ 221
No we won't, madam
won't what, babe? ... won't do it? ... or won't feel bad about yourself?
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coats @ 224
well thanks, but you have to remember that this blog as a whole is way to the right, so a moderate centrist like me is sometimes going to come across as quite left wing - hey, just had a referred post (213) come back from the dead! ... that's a pretty special thing to happen, isn't it?
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#226 Saga
Maybe you could try swinging just once.
I'm told its fun - you don't have to go all the way - what's a cross between a clown and a troll?
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225. At 10:59pm on 08 Jul 2009, sagamix wrote:
"reg @ 221
No we won't, madam
won't what, babe? ... won't do it? ... or won't feel bad about yourself?"
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I willn't feel bad about myself and, yes, I will do it.
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#205 ... indeed, this is an awful government ... but voting BNP ? ... dont even think about it dear .. this is a grown-up democracy where, hopefully, we argue about what should be done in a civilised fashion ... advocating that the only way to deal with immigration is to sink the boats that carry immigrants to Europe is beyond the pale .. these are the scum of the earth. Vote for who you like, but, at least give your vote to some party or other that supports decency and compassion .
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229. At 11:44pm on 08 Jul 2009, pat the cat wrote:
"...don't even think about it dear..."
Good God!. Talk about a patronising pile of junk.
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/
This should make some of those protest voters cringe. Nick Griffin
As calling it a clown would be a little harsh on the tories. What do we call it? its quite funny when its got no chance of carrying out its ridiculous ideas.
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229. At 11:44pm on 08 Jul 2009, pat the cat
I could not agree more with you any one who thinks that sinking ships or boats with immigrants on board to Europe is sick and as such do's not deserve to be MEP or have any rights in making laws in this Country or Europe
This Country as given it's young men and women over the years to make it a safe haven for all those who have been oppressed by governments , tribes or religion of other country's and it will be a sorry day when we will not protect those who need protecting
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229 pat the cat
You tell me which party supports decency and compassion AND candemonstrate it has done so and I will vote for it.
No I would never vote for the BNP but my God it is tempting.
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231. At 00:04am on 09 Jul 2009, dhwilkinson wrote:
"...got no chance of carrying out its ridiculous ideas."
-------------------------------------------------------
It's a pity that Labour have done so.
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#230 ... laugh ? .. I almost started to ... sink the boats carrying immigrants to Europe ... BNP sponsored submarines ? ... privately financed bomber aircraft loaded with tons of BNP election pamphlets ? .... patronising ? moi ?
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235. At 00:35am on 09 Jul 2009, pat the cat wrote:
"#230 ... laugh ? .. I almost started to ... sink the boats carrying immigrants to Europe ... BNP sponsored submarines ? ... privately financed bomber aircraft loaded with tons of BNP election pamphlets ? .... patronising ? moi ?"
Good God! Another patronising pile of junk.
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#York 1900 ... agreed .. there are ways to solve our problems ... not sure what they are, but supporting fascism cant be one of them .
x tonbridge ... I know how you feel ... as a friend of mine 40-odd years ago used to say " Listening to the wishes of the people is fine, but what do you do when they're wrong ?"
....
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234 reg jeeves
You are of course entitled to your opinion of the Government but, Unlike the local party for local people( the Bu Nu Pu). The government hasn't proposed sinking boats full of immigrants and their children but throw in life rafts so they don't drown. Sounds like he made the last bit up on the spot.
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sagamix 219
Do not misinterpret what I have said, I never for one moment advocated abolishing the minmum wage. Read what is written.
I presume you would stop all people working below the minimum wage, even if it is their choice, although people are doing this already. You would criminalise them if they do, would you?.
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#213....ok but whats the alternative? labour are ugley racist and useless,libs are just useless, the tories will essentially be the same as labour.whats left? theres scargills socialist labour....possible, theres the greens,basically worse than labour, and theres the bnp,who at least tell the truth.
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There is only one Tory MP for Scotland as far as I am aware.
Should one need to check the information it will be in most of the newspapers containing MPs expenses and no-one is suing them to date .
Some other evidence lurks in TV programmes already broadcast, I'm sure I heard one and was utterly disgusted and astonished by the defence put forward by the MP.Or did I just make that up to support my case??
I did not refer myself over the politics of envy, I referred another.
I read more grammatical errors of the of/have variety every day.
I am not interested in your life, you can promote yourself as highly as you care and I will not doubt you,but it makes no difference to my dislike and misuse of the language.
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222 her jeeves looks like i was wining the argument cheers.
rvpisneverinjureds. looks like another ex labour supporter don't dis spare Gordon is still trying to please. i'am sure its only a matter of time?when he will come good.
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If your out there grand, I was just going through your post and you mentioned the fact that i was of a dying breed ,you are the send person that has made that statement to me in not as many months Well on reflection i suppose i am.its a great pity that so many of our old traditional arts and crafts have been eroded and put aside supposedly in the name of progress,Like this laptop i am writing on if everyone adapts the same stance where is the craftsmanship you and i experienced ? lost for ever the skill in the finger tips of the cabinet makers,The clickers i knew in Leicester boot and shoe trade,the keel layers of Southampton ,The rove and rivet users in the construction of a clinker built boat,the draw knife used in the laying of the scar-board plank The little old Irish corrical maker skills that will never be used again?England was once a green and pleasant land a place were people took pride in there everyday work? Not people being punished like the poor graduate having to pay back loas to Mr brown and co soley to enhance their job prospects you were referring to yesterday Yes i suppose iam a dying breed what a great pity? was it not the government who said education was paramount.
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Sophistic Suze @ 239
there's no confusion - you're arguing for a general opt out to the MW and that is an effective abolition of same - you indicate you are worried about the criminalistion of old ladies and the handicapped doing therapeutic work for a little pin money (you know, to keep busy, boost self esteem etc) but I'm not aware of a stream of prosecutions against such people - perhaps I've missed it - any case, the MW legislation is directed at employers, is it not? - we've got enough real problems ... don't you think? ... no need to go making one up
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#239 Susan-Croft
Those working below the minimum wage shouldn't be prosecuted, however, those wantonly PAYING below the minimum wage should be.
When I talk about the minimum wage, I refer to those paid by the hour and not those salaried staff who receieve additional benefits who put in extra hours to get the job done.
Just because we are in a recession shouldn't be an excuse to further erode our already flimsy labour laws.
Sure there's some that don't suit me.... if I recover and return to work then I want prospective employers to be able to ask why I haven't worked for a few years. I don't want them to sit there wondering what I was up to - it could count against me.
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#244 sagamix & susan
I think you may be referring to lies, damned lies and semantics!
Pin money is pin money - people cannot live on pin money or the minimum wage for that matter if you live in London (although people are known to share room's to get by).
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No idea what Nick will focus on today. Would be good to see a little analysis of the Defence issue. Government stats suggest that "civilian" staff count at the Ministry of Defence is approx 110,000. (Although that seems to include some auxiliary reserve.)
Current Armed Forces appear to amount to 180,000 with about another 35,000 "TA reserves", offering a total of 215,000.
Seems like a pretty massive civilian flea on the back of the pedigree troop dog...
Defence spend in 2007/08 was GBP32BIL and Debt Servicing GBP31BIL.
Which one will increase fastest by 2011? Can't guess...
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sagamix 244
You really are good at missing the point, there are already people out there doing the jobs our people do not want to do earning below the minimum wage. You really do need to get out more and speak to cleaners and the unskilled doing menial jobs. A lot are foreigners, I would much rather know who these people are and give them some protection under the law as the 'Right to Work' would do, than them feel they are criminalised under our our system. Under your proposals it is alright for them to be doing this work for under the minimum wage as long as you do not know about it.
The other point is that a lot of disabled people and older people work for employers who cannot afford to pay them much, but they enjoy what they do, the right to work would allow them to continue to do this work. It would provide for others to do the same if they wished to.
I believe in a free society that people should have choices as to what they would like to do and what they want to contribute to society. The Government is busy trying to enforce this minimum wage on all employers putting people who probably do not have your skills out of work because in these hard times many employers cannot afford to pay the going rate.
Now there may very well be people who will not want to work for the below the minimum wage, however for those that do, it should be their choice.
It will not bother the employer he will just get rid of people he cannot afford, but it may very well impact very hard on those who want to work.
You see the problem with our society today is they go about with their head in the sand and if it does not affect them they do not care. They want rules and regulations to suit themselves without considering how it affects others. I believe in the minimum wage, however I am a realist, I want people to have choice and protection as well under the law as much as possible.
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"rvpisneverinjureds wrote:
#213....ok but whats the alternative? labour are ugley racist and useless,libs are just useless, the tories will essentially be the same as labour.whats left? theres scargills socialist labour....possible, theres the greens,basically worse than labour, and theres the bnp,who at least tell the truth."
So you think that Labour are useless and racist? And as a result you are thinking of voting for the BNP?
I partly agree with you that Labour ARE useless, and before all the Labour supporters jump they have had a massive majority for over a decade and still have done very little to help the worse off. However, Labour are not racist, the BNP are racist and are useless (even more so then Labour)
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"It is yet another day that has left many backbench Labour MPs feeling depressed".
Well, they needn't be ... not whilst the BBC is on Labour's side ... here we see a Government Minister keeping the BBC in line and ensuring that debate is properly suppressed:
http://tinyurl.com/ner7wq
[Not sure if this one will get past the BBC censors]
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Saga me old chum, you are deliberately misinterpreting Susans comments.
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229. At 11:44pm on 08 Jul 2009, pat the cat wrote:
"this is a grown-up democracy where, hopefully, we argue about what should be done in a civilised fashion"
I SO DISAGREE with you.
This is a tragic, terminally dysfunctional democracy, where people only talk, but do virtually nothing. Where the elected representatives act repeatedly in their own self or party interests. Where the people do not choose who runs the country - we have an unelected premier. Where increasing few people even bother to vote, because they trust neither the politicians nor the parliamentary systems.
If parliament was some sort of semi-entertainment TV programme, it would be fair enough - but it is supposed to be RUNNING THE COUNTRY!
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I am thinking after reading several of these posts of starting a new party to run at the next election -
Scrap the minimum wage Party.
Our agenda would be to show that the minimum wage;
does not guarantee anyone a decent standard of living.
slows down economic recovery as it makes it more expensive to re-employ people.
adds further to the newlabour culture of entitlement and living on benefits that has done so much harm to thsi nation.
has achieved nothing it set out to achieve as many have to supplement their minimum wages with tax credits.
presents a serious disincentive to young and growing companies to employ new staff.
represents yet another dog whistle newlabour policy which is all style over substance.
sets a bad example to young people who should not grow up believing there are either minimum or maximum wages for anyone.
Call aneletion
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oldnat and #132.
Oh dear, there you are again, the niggly little lowlander with nothing to contribute except your schoolboy version of history.
Now, you've got the Will Wallace t-shirt (complete with Mel Gibson warpaint), the genuine 10 year old 'independence' mug (made in China), the tea towel tastefully decorated with a 'Stag at Bay' and you're collecting the 1 a month tea-spoons of Rab Burns' best lines...
Hmm, what's left?
Oh well you could go to Rabbie's way and relearn the "..ol Scottish Airs, are so nobly sentimental that when one would compose for them, to 'south' the tune, as our Scotch phrase is, over and over, is the readiest way to catch the inspiration.."
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Where has it suddenly become fact that the BNP 'always tell the truth'? I'm pretty sure they have categorically stated that they 'are not racist'. Last time I checked, they wanted all 3rd generation Black, Asian, basically non-white families out of the country. That is definitely racist. Definitely.
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248. Susan-Croft
Susan,
Love your posts, but im afraid I cant agree with you on this one.
The people you speak of are working for unscrupulous employers who are willing to break the current law regarding minimum wage.
They also know that, if caught doing so, they will only get a slap on the wrist instead of a hefty fine that would otherwise deter them.
Yes, NuLabour are full of legislation that, on the surface, seems to be well intentioned, but they never seem to come up with the punishments to fit the crimes.
Ive no doubt that such employers would also be happy to turn a blind eye to immigration status & some of the other more troublesome legislation such as the Health & Safety act as well.
Perhaps you would rather have the State pay out additional benefits to subsidise those willing to work for less than the minimum wage, where as I would prefer for them to get a proper wage in the fist place.
My experience tells me that know body wants to work for hand outs & would much rather stand on their own two feet as it where.
As it is, savvy job shy citizens are already not bothering to work because they know that they are better off not trying.
Im sure, like me, you are not advocating encouragement of this, but im afraid that is exactly what will happen if Right to Work Legislation is to become law at any time.
Right to work legislation makes out that its in the interest of Employees, but its clearly not & I have a very good idea of which group of people would fill the places that we are already having difficulty in filling as it is.
The BNP dont need any more help, Labour is already doing that for them.
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256. At 09:55am on 09 Jul 2009, forgottenukcitizen wrote:
248. Susan-Croft
Susan,
Love your posts, but im afraid I cant agree with you on this one.
The people you speak of are working for unscrupulous employers who are willing to break the current law regarding minimum wage.
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Another view on that could be the fact that many many small companies and employers just don't have the money to pay the minimum
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When the dust has settled I am sure Mr Brown still believes he has a "healthy majority", rebels or no rebels. That is political life.
#248
Although I am not a great advocate of minimum wage legislation and I like the idea of a "right to work" I believe was is missing from the argument is the potential employment level.
In 2007 New Labour had their eyes on 75-80% working age in work, or, put in a more sensible way, at least one person in five out of work. That is far too slanted towards employers who know that there is a steady stream of people who will "work for less" (black economy or not).
A healthier situation for employers and employees is a ratio that is between one in ten and one in twenty out of work which would be much more effective in keeping wages realistic without minimum wage restrictions. The problem with these figures is that they cannot be maintained by a UK government because of EU migration and the growth of the black economy. So the answers lie within the EU and the potential of a "right to fairly paid work" for all citizens within the EU, or they lie in removing the UK from the EU.
Now if a political party (or better still parties) wanted to offer me real choice at the next election I may be persuaded to think that someone is listening instead of forever doing what will be best for the square mile that brought us this mess in the first place.
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#254 ikamaskeip
What a silly response! You whinge on about not having an English Parliament, although you weren't bothered about it until the other nations got their own parliament/assemblies.
You simply display the politics of envy, and foolish ad hominem attacks simply make you look even more ridiculous!
I will, however, add your post to the "Unionist Bingo" collection on BT's blog.
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179 yellow belly
#Grand, that's a classic, even by your standards. "If I heard them say it then it isn't hearsay to me."
Just to help you out as you seem a tad confused:
"Hearsay (uncountable)
information that was heard by one person about another"
Well I wonder whose classic is the most interesting ie"if I heard them say it then it isn't hearsay to me" in your efforts to make your point you miss the fact that what I was hearing was from the horses mouth,if I had said that joe bloggs had told me what had been said then that would be hearsay, I at no time claimed that anyone was telling me what one person said about another, so I am afraid old chap that your definition has only proved me right and you wrong, Are you now beginning to understand the meaning of hearsay, if not try a little harder.
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182 Ghostworld
#To be honest Grand, that is more or less what is happening now.. there was an article the other day saying how college grads are taking any job they can get bins or otherwise
The huge difference Casp is that we are now in the throes of a unprecedented World recession.
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184 mark we
I am paying higher taxes and seem to be getting less services for my money (but then I am not on the New Labour "nice" list - single male living alone with no children aka cash cow)
It might seem that way Mark but we as a nation choose this way of life [Democracy] where we all hopefully try to help one and other, hence at this point in your life it might seem unfair, Heaven forbid that it should happen but you could be struck down with a illness tomorrow that would mean you need care for the rest of your life. In which case someone else might have the same gripe,just be glad that your fit and well.
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189 Mark We
Even years later my basic salary is only slightly higher then it was back then.
If you are retired then you are lucky, my sister left University and owes more money then our parents spent buying the house we grew up in!
mark the reason your salary if not that much higher is because under this goverment there has been historically low inflation,the same thing applies to your friends, regardin the difficulty in finding work at this time unfortunately they have come out of gollege at about the worste economic time in history, many people at this time are losing their jobs but at least when there is a recovery they will have had the advantage of a good education.
Regarding your sisters debt, houses were certainly a lot cheaper then than they are now, however the debt has not to be paid until she starts to earn 25k a year and then at a acceptable rate and I believe interest free or certainly very low interest.
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· 257. At 10:39am on 09 Jul 2009, ghostworld wrote:
256. At 09:55am on 09 Jul 2009, forgottenukcitizen wrote:
248. Susan-Croft
Susan,
Love your posts, but im afraid I cant agree with you on this one.
The people you speak of are working for unscrupulous employers who are willing to break the current law regarding minimum wage.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another view on that could be the fact that many many small companies and employers just don't have the money to pay the minimum
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Which gives them a right to break this law & others as long as it gets the job done?
Seriously, if companies have to break the law to stay in business, then they are in the wrong country doing business & I can think of other countries where they could feel right at home (because ive worked them myself).
Those who criticize the Minimum wage seem to be the very people who would not do the work themselves or attempt to work for the kind of money they get.
Either that, or they are the very people who stand to make money from the situation.
I know I wouldnt work for the MW, & if I did you would probably be complaining at the Benefits & Tax Credits that would have to be paid to keep my family with bread on the table.
Which would you prefer?
I say, a reasonable wage, law-abiding employers & a safe place of work, in return for employees who turn up & put a decent days graft in to get the job done.
I think you will find that most of the population will be happy with that alone.
Still, Another day, another thread.
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190 Strictly Pickled
#As much as you like to remind everyone about the events of 25 years ago, your comment is actually a very accurate summary (surprising for your one of your posts) of what is actually happening now. Unemployment is at a 12 year high and rising. This website and the news actually have job trackers updated each day with news of job losses.
#It is ironic that your description of the bad old days is so relevant today, though I suspect that this irony is lost on you.
I certainly don't attempt to remind people of what happened 25 years ago, no much more recent events than that, you may wish to think that they were 25 years ago which would make them easier for you to sweep them under the carpet, the huge difference today my friend is as I keep saying we are now in the midst of a unprecedented World recession and we were'nt then.
iIt is ironic that the events that I described are similar to what is occurring now as you say but for very different reasons, the past events were self inflicted the present are not.
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192 Quiteoldinthetooth
I agree with practically all you say with the exception of kids and their schooling. they are given every thing in school that we never had or dreamt of, the schools are incredibly different to what you and I had
[48 in my class for my last four years]they have the best equipment that money can buy and yet many, certainly not all come away with very poor skills. I am afraid that the old saying comes to play here"you can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink".
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211 Susan Croft
As yellow would sa this is a classic coming from you.
#People these days are so blind to other opinions.
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239 Susan Croft
I presume you would stop all people working below the minimum wage, even if it is their choice, although people are doing this already. You would criminalise them if they do, would you?.
My answer to that is yes,definately yes,in the same way as I would if someone went to your employer and offered to do your job for less, not only would I criminalise them but the employer also.
People in this country have been fighting for years to get the benefits that you and I enjoy, and to even consider that we should allow others to be prepared to do our work for less would set us back in the workplace
two or three hundred years, the minimum wage is their to protect the people you speak of not to discredit or disadvantage them.
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Oldnat and #259.
A Blog Article is written and people make Comments based loosely around its content; sometimes stuff goes off at a tangent that few of us can follow.
In my #96 I referred to the content of the Main Article and listed '12' items that would seem relevant to the 'depressed' voter theme I was building my Comment around.
In your #132 you selected line '12' from 33 lines to yet again raise your pet-numpty theory of the dozy English.
Rabbie Burns is a bit hard-going I know, but I cannot help you except to suggest an easier read to fit in your unflagging foolish jibe at England is probably the John Buchan '39-Steps' approach to the world around you: In all honesty though, Scotland and You, must find a way of your own.
In my #254 I merely pointed out that you are the absolute epitomy of the newly independent Scot - - you've picked up all the cliches - - you've no substance as you still keep going on about the 'English'.
To take Rab Burns (sorry, but you'll have to read up), in Tam o'Shanter, Tam reaches the middle of the stream and is out of reach of the sprite but his horse's tail is not and Cutty Sark catches hold of it...
Now Your constant blather about England appears in a similar light: Your Scotland is mid-stream but the sprite of England is chasing your tail and You're afraid like Tam, it's going to pull it off!
You have to ask yourself why do you miss the UK so much?
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The problem with the minimum wage alternatives that are not enforced by law is that by definition you are dealing with the most desperate in society. these are the people who are least likely to go and ask for a higher wage bacause of the fear of losing what they already have. For that reason they must be protected, and that protection must come from an external source. (and forget the unions, they are a waste of space and have forgotten what they were formed for)
However there should be exemptions for charity work.
John
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241diabloandco
#There is only one Tory MP for Scotland as far as I am aware.
I did not ask you for anything to do with Scottish MPs in fact I remarked that they were very thin on the ground,I just thought that since you were obviously in the mood for making lists in the fairness of balance you might like to give us a Tory list, but it seems not.
I did not refer myself over the politics of envy, I referred another.
I didn't say you referred yourself that would be really stupid of you if you did, my argument was that you shouldn't have referred anyone and especialy for the reason you gave, and then criticise others for referring.Referrers are people who don't agree with free speech.
I read more grammatical errors of the of/have variety every day.
But my friend its not your place to correct people, I had a very poor education and as I pointed out I have developed many skills in my life, the point that I was attempting to make to you was that OK you write a nice grammatically correct letter thats your skill My skills at least some of them I have descibed to you not for any form of glorification but simply to show that you and I have different skills, so lets rejoice in them but lets not criticise others for not having them.
#but it makes no difference to my dislike and misuse of the language.
Of course it dos'nt but if we all interfered with others over everything we don't like friends would be pretty sparse, don't you think?.
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264. At 12:12pm on 09 Jul 2009, forgottenukcitizen wrote:
? 257. At 10:39am on 09 Jul 2009, ghostworld wrote:
256. At 09:55am on 09 Jul 2009, forgottenukcitizen wrote:
248. Susan-Croft
Susan,
Love your posts, but im afraid I cant agree with you on this one.
The people you speak of are working for unscrupulous employers who are willing to break the current law regarding minimum wage.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another view on that could be the fact that many many small companies and employers just don't have the money to pay the minimum
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which gives them a right to break this law & others as long as it gets the job done?
Seriously, if companies have to break the law to stay in business, then they are in the wrong country doing business & I can think of other countries where they could feel right at home (because ive worked them myself).
Those who criticize the Minimum wage seem to be the very people who would not do the work themselves or attempt to work for the kind of money they get.
Either that, or they are the very people who stand to make money from the situation.
I know I wouldnt work for the MW, & if I did you would probably be complaining at the Benefits & Tax Credits that would have to be paid to keep my family with bread on the table.
Which would you prefer?
I say, a reasonable wage, law-abiding employers & a safe place of work, in return for employees who turn up & put a decent days graft in to get the job done.
I think you will find that most of the population will be happy with that alone.
Still, Another day, another thread.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
That wasn't what i meant .. but hey, ho hum
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183 york
I have to agree, I have all my life been suspicious of pension funds although I appreciate there necessity for some people. I have always tried to deal in cash in my business and private life which now seems to have become a dirty word, if you feel you have to have a pension fund then its safer to put your money in a good savings account, that is the money that you would have placed with a pension found, you will get a better return you will all ways know how much you have and if you need to borrow money then what better than from your own account interest free, they don't run pension schemes for your benefit although they might try to kid you they do.
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#266 grandantidote
Or even Dorothy Parker's witticism on that old saying "You can take a whore to culture, but you can't make her think."
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forgottenukcitizen 256
Then in that case what is underground will remain underground and people working for these unscrupulous employers will continue to do so. We will never get to know who these people are because the employee will never declare himself because he will lose his job.
With the right to work we will identify which employer is paying low wages and the reason why. It could be that they are paying what they can afford and they will increase it when they can, in which case keeping someone in work is better than benefits. Or it could be they are under paying in which case the the employee has declared himself and we can force the employer to pay more.
The way it is at the moment the employee is criminalised along with the employer and will never declare low wages because he will lose his/her job.
Those who accept that they are paid below the minimum wage but enjoy what they do, will continue to lose their jobs because the Government has forced the minimum wage on the employer who cannot afford to pay it.
I speak often with these low paid workers which most do not bother to do because they are foreigners or they are perceived as a lesser worker. One thing runs through what they say which is they do not want to lose their job under any circumstances.
I am afraid it is not an ideal world, as much as I would like it to be and we often have to find solutions to very complex questions. Just legislating does not always cover all the different aspects of a question.
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grandantidote 267
I think you will find that fits you far better than me. You never can see the wood for the trees you are so blind. I make reasoned arguments unlike yourself. All we get from you is the Labour spin and manifesto. Thinking for youself you know is a very important tool.
Please do not waste any more posts on giving your personal opinion of me it is not of interest to other posters.
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grandantidote 268
I cannot really be bothered to answer, but would suggest you read things properly and understand what is being said or do not comment.
The benefits you enjoy you mean, we young people will enjoy very few benefits due to the spending culture of this Government. But hey you have already said you do not care about that as long as you are alright.
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273. At 1:36pm on 09 Jul 2009, grandantidote wrote:
183 york
I have to agree, I have all my life been suspicious of pension funds although I appreciate there necessity for some people. I have always tried to deal in cash in my business and private life which now seems to have become a dirty word, if you feel you have to have a pension fund then its safer to put your money in a good savings account, that is the money that you would have placed with a pension found, you will get a better return you will all ways know how much you have and if you need to borrow money then what better than from your own account interest free, they don't run pension schemes for your benefit although they might try to kid you they do
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This is something i have been trying to tell my wife for ages ... It scares me that she pays almost £400 per month into a pension that could in later life mysteriously vanish
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Grandantidote 266
Everything except good education.
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