Cameron aide emerges unscathed
At the end of an agonisingly long select committee hearing on phone hacking we finally got a newsworthy piece of evidence. Evidence, that is, of Andy Coulson's skills as a shaper of the news.
David Cameron's director of communications revealed that the police had called him only recently to reveal that his own mobile phone had been hacked into by the very private investigator who was jailed for illegal phone hacking when Coulson was editor of the News of the World.
Thus, the former editor turned spin doctor provided journalists with a top line for their stories about an otherwise dull enquiry (or am I missing something?).
The hearing was meant, of course, to examine what Andy Coulson knew about what had been going on at Britain's top-selling paper. The Guardian insists that it goes far beyond the approved News International version of events of a single journalist - a "bad apple" - who engaged in illegal activities without the knowledge of anyone else on the paper.
Today NI executives and Coulson persisted with that account. "Things went badly wrong under my editorship," he conceded, while insisting that he knew nothing about the hacking of phones or the paying of policemen.
None of the MPs who cross-questioned him today managed to blow a hole in that defence - no surprise, perhaps, since the Guardian has declared that it has no evidence to implicate him.
However, Plaid Cymru's Adam Price did make Coulson look uncomfortable when he presented him with a copy of paper he'd edited which trumpeted an "exclusive" about Prince Harry and Chelsy. Price suggested this story could only have come from the illegal phone hacking. Coulson's reply was that he had no involvement in or recollection of the story. No-one said what I imagine many were thinking - "come off it".
David Cameron will be told that his valued aide has emerged unscathed from today and may even break into a grin when he learns that he also managed to present himself as a victim rather than a villain in this story.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~01~RS~)
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Which rather makes the whole thing like a damp squib that has blown up in the holder's (The Government's) face.
Never mind I'm sure that if you dig deep enough you are bound to find something, anything, you can stick onto the tories. Such dedication!
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It's about power.
And the skill's not in the crime,
But not getting caught.
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Will there be a Parliamentary Committee Hearing about newspapers that resurrect a long-dead story and pretend it is new? Will they examine why a newspaper and the BBC, with no evidence, make this story headline news?
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Poor Nick. You must be gutted.
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"Which rather makes the whole thing like a damp squib that has blown up in the holder's (The Government's) face.
Never mind I'm sure that if you dig deep enough you are bound to find something, anything, you can stick onto the tories. Such dedication"
Your commenting on a spin doctor, who you probably didn't know existed, 2 months ago, in a headline story.
The spin doctor is the headline news. Job already done.
Once people knows a spin doctor exists, and how he works, there career is next to over.
How is anyone going to take a Labour "leak" story seriously now? Oh, Coulson at work again...........yawn
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IF the Guardian has further `Evidence ` then put up or shut up. A very POOR effort by Liebours cronies to besmirch Cameron and Coulson - not on the same planet as McBride and his smears!!!
Cmon Liebour supporters, the few who still believe , do try something original. Try Deripaska and Mandelson for starters.
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The most alarming point for me, was that a senior NOTW editor's name was on an e-mail (in the police evidence), with transcripts of hacked calls and:
A: they did not investigate him at all
B: they did not even approach him as a witness.
Quite obvious - 2 fall guys. Let's not dig too deep, in case Rupert starts writing nasty headlines about us.
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Anyone would think, Nick, that you were disappointed at the way this story (which you thought important enough to run several blogs on) has turned out to be virtually a non-event. "evidence" that Andy Coulson is a "shaper of the news". I'm sorry, did I miss something? One blog you're saying how Coulson has failed by "becoming the story", next you are implying that he manipulated the whole thing.
There is some shabby journalism going on at the moment and if you wanted to look into it, Nick, you wouldn't have to look too far to start the investigation.
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It is so difficult to smell moral corruption in a blog, but I am sure if the media mogels were to walk by you could smell it.
Interesting how the media has determined that the truth is never important,it is the framing of the story. But, then again, people do perfer fiction in their reading.
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"IF the Guardian has further `Evidence ` then put up or shut up. A very POOR effort by Liebours cronies to besmirch Cameron and Coulson - not on the same planet as McBride and his smears!!!"
Cameron's right hand guy in front of an inquiry, on potentially criminal allegations.
Labour guy sending e-mails to his mate.
Yeah, keep saying that to yourself.
New LIebour? Why do you expect anyone to take you seriously, when you ae this biased
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"Will there be a Parliamentary Committee Hearing about newspapers that resurrect a long-dead story and pretend it is new? Will they examine why a newspaper and the BBC, with no evidence, make this story headline news?
"
What planet have you been on. Just because the Daily Mail, and The Sun have chosen to black it out (I wonder why). Doesn't mean there is nothing in it.
Probably the most important Newspaper enquiry in the last 20 years.
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OK, now beware of postal votes, coming to a place near you (Norwich this week), and evicting democracy as a consequence.
Postal votes will be a much bigger story than News of the World, McBride and expenses put together.
http://www.unlockdemocracy.org.uk/electionpurity/?p=881
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So the Guardian has no evidence of its allegations but still the tax payers' money is wasted on a commons select committee and the BBC waste tax payers' money relentlessly pursuing the story.
Can the BBC and the Guardian make clear just how much money they would like to waste making allegations without any evidence so that we can get them all properly costed and out of the way.
Just how far are the Guardian and the BBC prepared to go to give airtime to innuendo for which there is no evidence?
Quite a long way it would appear:
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2009/08/hitchens200908
But as you can read at your leisure the real labour party appears to be about to stand up and speak for itself; they've had quite enough of these tactics.
This episode is as shameless as the tories futile attempts to out Alistair Campbell before the newlabour victory in 1997. The alcoholism, the pornographic novels; they tried it all but to no avail.
The sheer desperation of newlabour, Gordon Brown and the BBC show that they are finished; they will all go down together.
I wish them well in the gnashing and wailings about what could have been if that historic fourth term had been won; gargauntuan public debt; more cash for the health service and education; a collapsing pound; the arrival of the IMF with an instruction manual on how to manage a third world country; the crowning of King Gordon; endless bills of rights; mass immigration; 95% top rates of tax; anyone on the minimuum wage to be given a guaranteed lifetime right to social housing; exams to be abolished and replaced with 'Awfully well done!' certificates; the motor industry toi be nationalised; all British workers to be guaranteed a British car; the proms to be declared elitist and racist.
For crying out loud call an election.
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Cameron Aide emerge's unscathed.......
I'm unsure how any spin doctor, who's whole job is based on digging dirt, in the background, can sit in front of an inquiry, broadcast around the world, and come out "unscathed".
Especially when he answers every question with "I don't remember" or "I didn't see". Or "I wasn't looking at that time".
Anyone with a brain realises that he is either:
A: A complete imbecile, that has no future in any future government
B: He's covering his knowledge up
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Mandelson and Campbell's plot to get rid of Coulson has backfired so badly.
It is now clear who are the amateurs and who is the pro.
The whole non story smelled from start to finish and to see the select committe struggling to find questions to ask was embarrassing.
Perhaps they can all get on with the real story now. How to get this country out of the mess it's in.
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PS.
Can anyone who wants be taken seriously, in political debate, stop using the term "New Liebores", and things akin to that.
It's the political equivilant of a Man Utd fan and Liverpool fan having a discussion on who is actually the better team.
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And you're now, Nick, presuming to know David Cameron's reactions to the outcome. "May break into a grin"? What exactly is that supposed to imply? Are you suggesting that (i) Coulson is guilty of knowing about the phone tapping, (ii) that Cameron knows this and (iii) that Cameron is taking pleasure oin knowing that Coulson has 'got away with it'? If you are, I don't suppose for a second that you have any evidence for it?
What do you think Gordon Brown did when it was accepted that he knew nothing about McBride? If Cameron was smiling, Brown would have been convulseved with laughter.
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In summary:-
a) Many people (including prominent Labour MPs) believe or at least suspect Mr Coulson knew about or condoned the illegal phone hacking.
b)He categorically denies knowing anything about it and there is no evidence to suggest he did (despite a police investigation and extensive inquiries by the Guardian)
c)Mr Coulson nevertheless accepted responsibility for his newspaper's failings and resigned.
d)MPs call Mr Coulson before a parliamentary committe to explain his position and some Labour MPs have said he is not a fit and proper person to be in his current job.
e) Many people believe or at least suspect Gordon Brown knew about or at least condoned Damien McBride's activities (including the sending of false and defamatory emails)whilst working in the office next to Gordon Brown.
f)Mr Brown denies this and there is no evidence to suggest he did (but of course no inquiry - his word is simply accepted).
g)Mr Brown does not accept any personal resonsibility for the actions of his trusted and long term employee carried out from the offices of 10 Downing Street (As President Truman didn't say - "The buck stops next door") .
h)Mr Brown has not been called before a parliamentary enquiry to answer for his employee's actions and no Labour MP has suggested he is not a fit and proper person for his current office (as opposed to being an electoral liability).
Can any Labour supporter provide a fair and rational explanation for this rank hypocracy?
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Mike Naylor @14...
"Cameron's right hand guy in front of an inquiry, on potentially criminal allegations.
Labour guy sending e-mails to his mate."
..and you're NOT biased??
As I remember it those 'e-mails to his mate' were the planning of a completely fabricated smear campaign on behalf of the Labour Party,Government and perhaps the PM.
Good heavens ,talk about blinkered.
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Parliamentary Select Committees cannot grill a kipper effectively, so of course Coulson got off. He read out his defence very well. And those who do have the evidence dirt on him are saving it up for when he is top aide to Tory Prime Minister Cameron when his scalp will be much more exulted and newsworthy.
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Post 18 Mike Naylor says Coulson is either:
A: A complete imbecile, that has no future in any future government
B: He's covering his knowledge up.
Seems like a fair desciption of Brown re the actions of Damien McBribe!
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What a disgrace....and David Cameron make out that he wants anew style of leadership....come off it it he has just copied Blair...This coulson in my opinion knows more than he seems to be saying. David Cameron is copying Tony Blair with a spin doctor...never mind a news aide....David you are the same old story and we can see that now...in my opinion.
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MPs investigating Journalists. An unedifying spectacle. Like watching a flies on a turd!
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It is so difficult to smell moral corruption in a blog, but I am sure if the media mogels were to walk by you could smell it.
Interesting how the media has determined that the truth is never important,it is the framing of the story. But, then again, people do perfer fiction in their reading.
Ive said it before, and Ill say it again. I do enjoy the right wing viewpoint of balanced reporting.
As in, reporting good and bad on all parties.
The tory voter view is always this is how something is. Anyone who veers away from such opinion is either biased, corrupt, or barmy.
You know, the same people vying for blood, after they read about a Jacqui Smith leak in the Daily Mail for 5 weeks in a row, take offence when something actually newsworthy, hits the headlines.
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Mike_Naylor came onto this blog
Some felt he came out from a log
A labour party pup?
Or merely winding us up?
That marvellous rascally old dog.
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"So the Guardian has no evidence of its allegations but still the tax payers' money is wasted on a commons select committee and the BBC waste tax payers' money relentlessly pursuing the story.
Can the BBC and the Guardian make clear just how much money they would like to waste making allegations without any evidence so that we can get them all properly costed and out of the way.
"
Robin
Try reading about it before you vent your tory spleen.
The story has never been that there is new evidence. Just that any evidence that exists has either been:
1: Whitewashed
2: Bought off
3: Covered up
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moderated out again simply for being truthful ! At least my compass is moral ! Nick Robinson's ?
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"Are you suggesting that (i) Coulson is guilty of knowing about the phone tapping, (ii) that Cameron knows this and (iii) that Cameron is taking pleasure oin knowing that Coulson has 'got away with it'? If you are, I don't suppose for a second that you have any evidence for it?
What do you think Gordon Brown did when it was accepted that he knew nothing about McBride? If Cameron was smiling, Brown would have been convulseved with laughter"
Cameron hired a disgraced ex NOTW editor, to be his spin doctor.
A guy who specialised in leaks, and exposes for the best part of 15 years.
Stop playing the prima donna.
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"As I remember it those 'e-mails to his mate' were the planning of a completely fabricated smear campaign on behalf of the Labour Party,Government and perhaps the PM.
Good heavens ,talk about blinkered. "
Which was in response to the notorious Tory "Guido Fawkes" web site, which ironically leaked hacked Damian McBride e-mails to the media in the first place.
More hacking on Andy's watch
Good heavens, talk about blinkered
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Is Mike Naylor a Liebour No10 employee - is he biased???? - is he a product of the last 12 years??? - does he remember Mandelson, Robinson, Byers, Jowell, McBride, Martin, - have I got enough space - Iraq war - Bliar - David Kelly - still Mike u can keep paying MY share of tax for the next 20 years to ` celebrate` the Clown and Co having been in Govt.
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Hmmm.....reports about plumeting tax revenues, critical findings of Government policy, complaints about the timing of the release of news. = not worthy of a blog.
Non-story of no evidence of years old allegations = let's have a blog insinuating that Cameron knows his man is guilty.
No bias there then. Nick, you are becoming more and more like a child who delights in annoying people by shouting "bum" in church because you know your parents lack the willpower to discipline you.
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If you notice, Coulson answered basically every difficult question, with Not in my recollection.
Hes not saying yes or no. Hes basically saying he doesnt remember.
So his defence is that no editor, manager, senior journalist had any idea that anything was going on. And if it later turns out that they did, he forgot about it.
Forget Media Advisor. Coulson needs a cabinet/shadow cabinet job
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"A: A complete imbecile, that has no future in any future government
B: He's covering his knowledge up.
Seems like a fair desciption of Brown re the actions of Damien McBribe!"
The only difference being Brown sacked McBride, almost immediately. That's the entire political argument.
A disgraced, ex red top editor, who quit over the whole charade, and who probably still has plenty of questions to ask, could very soon be an active part of a government.
Makes the Alaistar Campbell affair look rather meagre
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On another note, the one thing that has probably come to light is that Newspapers need thorough regulation and auditing.
As in, according to Coulson, no Editors actually have any idea where there stories come from.
Just a load of rogue journalists, answering to no-one.
They also probably need help in terms of memories. Not that I recollect is akin to telling teacher the dog ate my homework
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Another thing, in regards to Smeargate
Weren't McBride's e-mails allegedly hacked, and leaked to the tory blogger?
Wonder if Coulson had any recollection of that?
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Mike_Naylor...HA HA HA!
To hell with you TU suckers.
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#32 Mike
Coulson was "disgraced" in the sense of not having anything proved against him? As opposed, of course, to McBride. Saying that the political blog that broke the McBride story was tory is a bit like trying to defend a Belsen guard by saying the man who arrested him was a commie. McBride did what he did. No ifs, buts, doubts. There is no evidence linking Coulson to anything. Just accept it. Move on.
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I sincerely hope that this does not give Cameron the ability to paint himself as a victim. The issue was Coulson's conduct. He has been, questionably, exonerated. His career will bear the brunt of any forthcoming criticism. None of this shows Cameron as a victim, only that his decision to hire Coulson was not an unmitigated disaster for him.
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Hi Nick
Having watched the Grilling, I though Coulson gave a credible performance, much more so than the managing editor, (whose name is too easy to misspell and end up running foul of the mods.) Yes, Coulsons seemed uneasy at times and the ability of NOW journos to keep him out of the loop and him not suspect it, is a little worrying for a communications director but I think on balance he gave a good account of himself. The other guy however was evasive, aggressive and such a bad witness I expected his nose to grow with each question. My Verdict: Coulson in the clear but News International Management up to their necks in the brown stuff with a lot of questions to be answered.
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I had not until recently realised how easy it is to wind up Mike-Naylor aka the former alcoholic and pornography writer and PR advisor to TB.
It seem he is less than well pleased with his attempt to have Andy Coulson strung up.
What goes around comes around....
Call an election.
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The only reference to the Coulson phone blagging scandal on the Have Your Say page, is Nick Robinsons Unscathed blog, so I suppose Im stuck with it!
Despite evidence, read into the Parliamentary Committees minute, that one of the serving Mps has received a letter from NI, described by the Speakers Solicitors, as an attempt to interfere with the business of the committee and the tapping of the Princes phones, paying Police Officers for leaks whilst he was Editor, Nick and BBC News, insist Coulson is unscathed!
I appears to me evident that the BBC are positioning themselves for a change of Government. Their reporting of this affair has been little less than scandalous!
Charles, Glasgow.
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Damian McBride - ZanuLiebours answer to everything - sums up the whole sorry, disgraced shower. Hope McBride makes up a complete fabrication, gets some mates involved, and attepmpts to blacken people without a shred of moral unease - oh, forgot, he ALREADY did that.
WHO discussed that with him , WHO ordered it, no Clown, do not have any Parliamentary people investigating that- far too close to home.Roll on 2010 so Mr Naylor can post his solitary vote for ZanuLiebour and those who sent our troops on phoney wars to die for ZanuLiebour.
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At the risk of offending Mike naylor, who seems to be a one man band defence force for the labour party and its associated organ, the BBC, I would like politely to point out that the reason why so many right wing people appear so angry is that:
1. Damian McBride was actually employed directly in number 10 while fabricating stories about Tory politicians, seemingly bringing the gutter politics into the heart of Government;
2. So far as I know, David Cameron has never been employed by NOTW and is in no way connected to the phone tapping;
3. There is no evidence that Coulson knew about the tapping and he resigned from his job when it came out;
4. Those of us who are not aligned with a political party have watched in utter amazement at the spin machine over the last 12 years and the anger is a reflection of the sheer frustration at no-one holding labour to account for this.
The deliberate attempt by a labour newspaper to conflate phone tapping with David Cameron's politics seems merely to continue the long line of spin, which most people I know are fed up with.
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9. . At 3:38pm on 21 Jul 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
I know you must be gutted, but both the police and The Guardian have confirmed that there is no evidence linking Coulson to this. Move on.
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"39. At 4:25pm on 21 Jul 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
Another thing, in regards to Smeargate
Weren't McBride's e-mails allegedly hacked, and leaked to the tory blogger?
Wonder if Coulson had any recollection of that?"
Once again, why do you think it matters how what McBride did came to the public's attention? The Yorkshire Ripper was caught because of a nosey policeman. Does that make him any less guilty? McBride did what he did. Accept it. Move on.
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Nick, If you think Coulson is not telling the truth then why not accuse him outright. This would show that you are a journalist with true morals.
By the way do you get all of your information "legally".
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Hoorah!
Another non-story
How about trying to get some comment on those fiscal figures announced yesterday?
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Mike Naylor,
you're blowing hot air into a burst bubble, old boy.
All the best with that.
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24. At 4:01pm on 21 Jul 2009, heskethpark wrote:
Parliamentary Select Committees cannot grill a kipper effectively, so of course Coulson got off. He read out his defence very well. And those who do have the evidence dirt on him are saving it up for when he is top aide to Tory Prime Minister Cameron when his scalp will be much more exulted and newsworthy.
===
A bit defeatist of you, isn't it? Are you saying your Labour party wont win the election?
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#38
"On another note, the one thing that has probably come to light is that Newspapers need thorough regulation and auditing."
Why not just go the whole hog and introduce government censorship? Wouldn't that be more in line with New Labour thinking?
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Post 37 Mike Naylor writes of the difference between Cameron/Coulson and Brown/McBride:-
"Brown sacked McBride,almost immediately. That's the entire political argument"
Talk about missing the point. McBride was sacked for actions carried whilst employed by Brown and working from an office in No 10.
On what basis would Cameron sack Coulson? For the actions of someone else, of which he had no knowledge, carried out in his previous place of employment?
Presumably as a Labour supporter Mr Naylor is a strong supporter of employee's rights. How does he think an Employment Tribunal would deal with a claim for unfair dismissal from Mr Coulson on these grounds?
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#20 Mike_Naylor
if you don't like the term "New Liebour" - then I'd suggest you start calling on our elected Government to start being truthful.
Until then - suck it up!
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32. At 4:12pm on 21 Jul 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
"Are you suggesting that (i) Coulson is guilty of knowing about the phone tapping, (ii) that Cameron knows this and (iii) that Cameron is taking pleasure oin knowing that Coulson has 'got away with it'? If you are, I don't suppose for a second that you have any evidence for it?
What do you think Gordon Brown did when it was accepted that he knew nothing about McBride? If Cameron was smiling, Brown would have been convulseved with laughter"
Cameron hired a disgraced ex NOTW editor, to be his spin doctor.
A guy who specialised in leaks, and exposes for the best part of 15 years.
Stop playing the prima donna.
===
And Tony Blair hired a manic depressive, alcoholic pornographer to be his spin doctor. So your point is..?
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33. At 4:14pm on 21 Jul 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
"As I remember it those 'e-mails to his mate' were the planning of a completely fabricated smear campaign on behalf of the Labour Party,Government and perhaps the PM.
Good heavens ,talk about blinkered. "
Which was in response to the notorious Tory "Guido Fawkes" web site, which ironically leaked hacked Damian McBride e-mails to the media in the first place.
More hacking on Andy's watch
Good heavens, talk about blinkered
===
Mike, you must be blinkered if you think Guido is a Tory. I bet you've never read his blog.
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The Tory-Labour tit-for-tat nature of these responses is almost as depressing as Rupert Murdoch's terrifying and domineering media empire! I have no alliance with any particular party - I find it much better to make my own mind up first and see who agrees with me.
Although no hard evidence of guilt seems to be forthcoming I don't see how anyone could be convinced by such repeated "I can't recall" statements - these committees never seem to achieve anything because those involved always seem to be able to give non-committal answers which neither confirm or deny guilt! This always leaves a deeply unsatisfying result as no firm truth is ever found.
I am not a fan of any of the main parties, whoever gets in - things never really seem to change for the better. But I see papers like the NOTW as one of the most disturbing products in a time of poor journalism and the fact someone has jumped from such a cesspool of gossip and dirty news into politics is both unsurprising and a good indictment of the political world we live in.
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Hi "Nick" and whilst I am at it please say hello to your mate "Rob" I have never writen on these blogs before as I don't consider myself educated enough but I do read them all, boy oh boy don't I have a good laugh mainly at you and your mate and the comments made towards you being bias.
The reason I am writing I am hoping someone on here will enlighten me as to how you and "Rob" still have a job with the BBC when you get so much flack. I am not asking you as I don't expect you to be there, you can't read all these comments about you surely and still come back for more, I bet your bum is off the seat before the last full stop
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I watched with interest the evidence from the current editor who said something like "and I hope this will mean we can leave this all behind us."
My first reaction was "in your dreams, sonny"
But then I thought about it. Lets face it, the media in this country is SO powerful (far more so than MPs who we elect) that they will get away with all this and carry on making it up and telling us what ever they fancy and get evidence however they want.
And they will get away with it.
When Orwell wrote about Big Brother, he got the right idea but the wrong candidate.
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36. At 4:20pm on 21 Jul 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
If you notice, Coulson answered basically every difficult question, with Not in my recollection.
Hes not saying yes or no. Hes basically saying he doesnt remember.
So his defence is that no editor, manager, senior journalist had any idea that anything was going on. And if it later turns out that they did, he forgot about it.
Forget Media Advisor. Coulson needs a cabinet/shadow cabinet job
===
Yes, with a style like that, he would have fitted in nicely in "Jimmy" Brown's government of all the talents, maybe a promotion to Baron Coulson of Wapping?
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PS.
Can anyone who wants be taken seriously, in political debate, stop using the term "New Liebores", and things akin to that.
It's the political equivilant of a Man Utd fan and Liverpool fan having a discussion on who is actually the better team.
--------------------------------
You mean ZanuLiebour. No. Cos things can only get better.
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37. At 4:22pm on 21 Jul 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
"A: A complete imbecile, that has no future in any future government
B: He's covering his knowledge up.
Seems like a fair desciption of Brown re the actions of Damien McBribe!"
The only difference being Brown sacked McBride, almost immediately. That's the entire political argument.
===
You've got your facts wrong there. McBride wasn't sacked, he resigned, spineless "Jimmy" Brown didn't have the guts to sack him.
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"Is Mike Naylor a Liebour No10 employee - is he biased???? - is he a product of the last 12 years??? - does he remember Mandelson, Robinson, Byers, Jowell, McBride, Martin, - have I got enough space - Iraq war - Bliar - David Kelly - still Mike u can keep paying MY share of tax for the next 20 years to ` celebrate` the Clown and Co having been in Govt.
"
The Irony being, someone calling Labour "liebore" is claiming I am too biased too comment.
Mr. Reagan, your only contribution to these boards is posting rubbish about "liebore" "Election now!" "Mandleson"
Every time you see a story on here.
Tory HQ or Daily Mail hmmmmmmmm
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Well Nick, the many respondents to your blog a couple of weeks ago that said this was a none-story, have been proved right.
Better luck next time!
Now, how about some real political journalism about Gordon's abject failures? Or is that testing your loyalty too far?
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RobinJD wrote:
Just how far are the Guardian and the BBC prepared to go to give airtime to innuendo for which there is no evidence?
###
Oh, I suspect the evidence is out there. As Andrew Neil ranted, it beggers belief that phone hacking and other illegal activities take place and an editor knows nothing about it!
The problem is being able to get the evidence, and in such a way that it is publishable. Both the BBC and possibly the Grauniad have higher standards for their publishing than the red tops (lets face it, anything is higher standard than sitting in the pub making a story up because have nothing that week)
I would think the only way they could get the evidence is using the same illegal methods that they are complaining about.
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39. At 4:25pm on 21 Jul 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
Another thing, in regards to Smeargate
Weren't McBride's e-mails allegedly hacked, and leaked to the tory blogger?
Wonder if Coulson had any recollection of that?
===
Facts not a strong point with you, are they?
His emails were not hacked, he copied somebody in on the emails that bore a grudge and wanted to bring him down a peg or two, no honour amongst the comrades, is there?
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"No bias there then. Nick, you are becoming more and more like a child who delights in annoying people by shouting "bum" in church because you know your parents lack the willpower to discipline you"
Daily Mail reader
It is not biased to abstain from attacking Mr. Brown, and demanding "election now!".
Maybe start getting your news from "Young Tory Weekly" if you wish news like this to be whitewashed
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"Mike_Naylor wrote:
"A: A complete imbecile, that has no future in any future government
B: He's covering his knowledge up.
Seems like a fair desciption of Brown re the actions of Damien McBribe!"
The only difference being Brown sacked McBride, almost immediately. That's the entire political argument."
I think the point that was being made went over your head, if you expect Coulson (who lets be honest was only the editor of a rag of a paper) to know what all the people in his team were doing then you must expect Gordon Brown to know exactly what McBride was doing (McBride was a close aide to Brown rather then a freelancer)
Therefore by your very own logic Brown (and in your very own words) is:
"A: A complete imbecile, that has no future in any future government
B: He's covering his knowledge up."
If you still don't understand ask one of the other people in Labour HQ, I am sure there is someone there who can explain it to you.
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"Coulson was "disgraced" in the sense of not having anything proved against him? As opposed, of course, to McBride. Saying that the political blog that broke the McBride story was tory is a bit like trying to defend a Belsen guard by saying the man who arrested him was a commie. McBride did what he did. No ifs, buts, doubts. There is no evidence linking Coulson to anything. Just accept it. Move on. "
He "resigned", taking responsibility for the biggest tabloid scandal in about the last 50 years.
If you honestly think a man actually resigning, and then claiming he had "no recollection of anything" is a valid excuse, then I wonder about your own impartiality.
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"WHO discussed that with him , WHO ordered it, no Clown, do not have any Parliamentary people investigating that- far too close to home.Roll on 2010 so Mr Naylor can post his solitary vote for ZanuLiebour and those who sent our troops on phoney wars to die for ZanuLiebour"
Ron Reagan
Damian McBride's e-mails were hacked and leaked.
Who ordered that?
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"telecasterdave wrote:
Nick, If you think Coulson is not telling the truth then why not accuse him outright. This would show that you are a journalist with true morals.
By the way do you get all of your information "legally"."
I very much doubt that Nick gets any of his information illegally, although I would suspect that at least some of his information is passed to him from friendly contacts in the Labour party (some of his articles look like he has printed them word for word!)
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1. Damian McBride was actually employed directly in number 10 while fabricating stories about Tory politicians, seemingly bringing the gutter politics into the heart of Government;
2. So far as I know, David Cameron has never been employed by NOTW and is in no way connected to the phone tapping;
3. There is no evidence that Coulson knew about the tapping and he resigned from his job when it came out;
4. Those of us who are not aligned with a political party have watched in utter amazement at the spin machine over the last 12 years and the anger is a reflection of the sheer frustration at no-one holding labour to account for this.
The deliberate attempt by a labour newspaper to conflate phone tapping with David Cameron's politics seems merely to continue the long line of spin, which most people I know are fed up with.
In reply to:
1: I dont see any difference in hiring a guy who disgraced himself in his job, and Cameron openly hiring a disgraced red top editor. Although Im sure you think he wanted him for his brilliant media mind, its more than likely because he wanted to fight Labour leaks and smears, with his own the tabloid attack dog. Either way, its bad judgement.
2: I dont get your point. Brown was guilty by implication, apparently. He hired McBride, so is supposedly responsible for his past, present and future. The only criticism of Brown was that he knowingly hired a media, cretin, and I read for weeks Cameron bleating about how the hiring was demonstrative of a sleazy government. Surely the same applies here
3: He resigned from his job when it came out, accepting full responsibility for the entire situation, as it happened on my watch. As for evidence of knowing about it seriously, I think anyone with any intelligence knows that an Editor in chief of a Newspaper will have some idea how it operates. Even Piers Morgan admitted that he knew that the NOTW and The Mirror operated in this way, when he was Editor. Luckily hes not been paid off to keep quiet, so we can get his wisdom on the subject.
4: Your bias towards this situation is almost staggering. Have you not realised that the entire Cameron campaign since Coulson has been on board (where Cameron was miles behind in the ratings) has been based on leaks, smears, and the red top media.
I agree, this is possibly in retaliation to McBride, but lets not forget how the McBride case came about his e-mails being hacked, leaked to a tory blogger, and then leaked to the mass media.
Not only that, but former minister Tom Watson, was then accused, through sources that he was also akin to the e-mails. Even stating he was alledgedly ccd into the messages.
You may believe these sources were anonymous whistle blowers. I call it a concerted sleaze exercise, to try and implicate an innocent MP, into a story running out of political steam.
The entire story, was a planned attempt to try and link the actions of McBride, to Tom Watson, to Gordon Brown.
And only stopped when Mr. Watson sued News International.
I see no difference in either case. Other than the fact that McBride mucked up after being hired. And Cameron hired a guy, knowing something like this was probably going to happen/
Bad judgement by both leaders.
God help us all at the next election, whoever wins
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74. At 5:08pm on 21 Jul 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
"WHO discussed that with him , WHO ordered it, no Clown, do not have any Parliamentary people investigating that- far too close to home.Roll on 2010 so Mr Naylor can post his solitary vote for ZanuLiebour and those who sent our troops on phoney wars to die for ZanuLiebour"
Ron Reagan
Damian McBride's e-mails were hacked and leaked.
===
Says who? Has he complained to the police? These are serious allegations.
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If the editor of this news item, does not or cannot read the comments posted, the whole thing is a charade.
If this equally applies to other editors whose pieces appear within the websites of the BBC., then the whole business is a nonsense.
I would like some proof that the lack of interest by Nick Robinson is a fact and not just a subject to set pens whirling.
Let me have some evidence, one way or the other so that I can make an informed decision. Am I being a trite old fashioned in requiring proof before conviction?
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Mike
Still you are seeking some hopeless mileage about the alleged hacking of the McBride emails. Can I ask one simple question, cause I can't work it out. If McBride's emails were never meant to make it into the public domain, what was the point of them? Oh, hang on, got it now, it was only the author that was supposed to remain secret. The defamatory information as supposed to get out, not the author's name. I see now, what a terrible thing it was that the author of damaging and untrue allegations about Tory leaders and their families was unmasked. No wonder you're in a tiz.
And I read The Times, actually. And I have no idea at all what your post #71 is trying to say. I have to leave the office now so won't be able to continue this hilarious conversation. I'd suggest though that the next time you engage in a battle of wits, you should remember to bring a weapon with you.
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What a total waste of money this Select Committee hearing was. At least we won't be seeing or hearing from Prescott for a while! The latest UK debt figures are far more concerning than the consequences of this attempted smear by The Guardian.
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Mike Naylor's interesting points on the situation:
1: Tom Watson - was wrongly implicated by many news agencies, blogs and sources, as being part of the McBride scandal.
Based on a false claim that he was cc'd into the e-mails. Watson, a former minister, and very close ally to Brown, was supposedly seen as the missing link, implicating Brown in it.
Unfortunately, it was all made up, and Watson is now suing half of fleet street for damages.
Anyway, he was obviously quite eager to be on the panel........And, NOTW surprisingly petitioned, for him to be removed, before it started....
2: All these "no implications" whitewash merchants. I'm happy to inform you that Mr. Coulson was a few days ago, reported to the Conservative's own ethics committee, by a backbencher - the internal audit Mr. Cameron set up, to clean up the party.
More than likely a disgruntled back bencher, who was peeved at being asked to stand down, while Boris, George, and the young set, were protected from all the expense malarky.
One quote being, something along the lines of "Cameron wants to clean up politics. So it's only right that Coulson faces the internal inquiry he set up"
Hmmmmmmmm. Evil, but brilliant.
So in short, Coulson will almost certainly be facing the Tory sleaze busters as soon as the parliament panel are finished with him.
Which puts Cameron in a pickle.
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# 74
Damian McBride's e-mails were hacked and leaked.
Who ordered that?
**********8
Mike, for the last time - NOBODY ordered it, because NOBODY hacked the emails.
But don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant.
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"Once again, why do you think it matters how what McBride did came to the public's attention? The Yorkshire Ripper was caught because of a nosey policeman. Does that make him any less guilty? McBride did what he did. Accept it. Move on. "
David Cameron, trying to insinuate that the government culture of leaks, smears, and spin, was something that needed to end?
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"He "resigned", taking responsibility for the biggest tabloid scandal in about the last 50 years" Mike_Naylor.
Sorry Mike, missed that one. Are you mad? Biggest tabloid scandal for 50 years?
Oh and when someone actually does something (i.e. resigns) you don't put it in quotation marks. And at least he did take responsibility. More than Brown ever could do.
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#73
Mike, Coulson resigned once it was clear that the staff under him had acted as they did. Quote "As editor, I was ultimately responsible".
That's what people with some integrity and conscience do. If only Brown had as much integrity.....
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"On what basis would Cameron sack Coulson? For the actions of someone else, of which he had no knowledge, carried out in his previous place of employment?"
Cameron stated that the hiring of McBride showed the Gordon Brown was a terrible judge of character.
And that the culture of "Spin doctors, leaks and smears" was a Labour tactic, that needed a tory government to cure.......
I should inform you that Coulson has been reported to the tory partie's own ethics committee by a back bencher.
The one Cameron ironically set up to clean up the party.........
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"You've got your facts wrong there. McBride wasn't sacked, he resigned, spineless "Jimmy" Brown didn't have the guts to sack him."
So CAmeron hasn't discplined a single MP over the expenses scandal then? They all resigned.
Isn't that a bit spineless?
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"Well Nick, the many respondents to your blog a couple of weeks ago that said this was a none-story, have been proved right.
Better luck next time!
Now, how about some real political journalism about Gordon's abject failures? Or is that testing your loyalty too far?
"
He writes this as Coulson is reported to the Tory partie's own sleaze commission, for investigation, after the all party inquiry is finished.
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Given how the hacking was done why is the committee not forcing the mobile operators to remove the loop hole that lets anyone access your messages from ANY phone when the call you and your your line is engaged.
Its hardly rocket science and not "Hacking" its badly designed systems that are not fit for purpose.
Simple solution to the so called hacking is for the committee to force mobile phone networs to only allow access to answer phone messages from the actual phone. Job done!
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"I very much doubt that Nick gets any of his information illegally, although I would suspect that at least some of his information is passed to him from friendly contacts in the Labour party (some of his articles look like he has printed them word for word!)"
You should really get a job in Spin and sleaze yourself.
Again, if you want all (negative) tory news to be whitewashed, maybe read the Daily Mail.
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Every Mark WE comment, is on Cameron stories, and largely equates to:
"Don't listen to it. The BBC is biased".
Blogger, or Tory HQ pawn, hitting Ctrl V 50x a day
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It looks like New Labour have looked under the sofa and found enough money to pay for Mike to spread his half-baked thoughts again.
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Come on Nick,
The parliamentary committees hardly ever lay a glove on anyone dragged before them. No surprise.
But I guess you didn't fancy reporting on the evisceration of the typically stuffed up Bill that Brown tried to force through Parliament to "clean up" politics.
When he was permitted to make that rediculous, gurning YouTube broadcast he boasted that he'd shove laws through, before the summer hols, to really sort things out. (Despite, of course having already appointed someone to come up with a sensible framework.)
What's happened? What always happens when MPs try and rush laws. They are badly written, have been chopped and changed a lot and there's very little left. A bit like the Christmas turkey after all the families have had seconds.
I'd have thought that was a little more interesting than a spin doctor. Or even a mini-comment on the masses of bad news saved up and sneaked out just before bucket and spade time!
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"Says who? Has he complained to the police? These are serious allegations."
McBride claimed the e-mails were hacked. And yes, I believe it is being investigated as I type this.
How on earth do you think an e-mail between two Labour spin doctors ended up on a tory web site? They leaked the info themselves!?
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A small but important point, McBride RESIGNED, he wasn't sacked by GB.
I still fail to see why this story is being given so much attention. Waste of time and a total waste of public funds!
In case no one noticed, the general public doesn't give a monkeys about this.
Soldiers are being killed in Afghanistan, the Country is bankrupt and Swine flu is infecting more people daily.
There was an enquiry into this at the time. The Guardian and the BBC are just flogging a dead horse. Get a grip, get a life and move on.
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Tough one this.
We all jumped on the bandwagon over the Telegraphs exposee of MP's expenses. This information was not gained through legal channels yet was of public interest, so I suppose that makes it ok then.
Another newspaper uses illegal methods to expose soapstars, celebrities, sportstars etc. I suppose that can be questioned as to whether it was in the public interest or not?
However the simple answer is do not buy these newspapers and the dubious reporting methods will go away.
As for it being a political story......fraid not.
Anyone else want to discuss the level of public borrowing, now there's a political story which needs discussing!!!
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Mike Naylor wrote:
"Damian McBride's e-mails were hacked and leaked."
--------
Really?
You know this for a fact?
Where is your evidence?
Do you not think that someone else may just have received a copy, seen an opportunity to do McBride down (I did hear he had made an enemy or two) and forwarded it to Guido.
This is an important allegation Mike, you should get the Police involved quickly. A thorough investigation of just exactly who was aware of the "red rag" plot within the No. 10 bunker should be conducted immediately. We need to get to the bottom of this, don't you agree?
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"Still you are seeking some hopeless mileage about the alleged hacking of the McBride emails. Can I ask one simple question, cause I can't work it out. If McBride's emails were never meant to make it into the public domain, what was the point of them? Oh, hang on, got it now, it was only the author that was supposed to remain secret. The defamatory information as supposed to get out, not the author's name. I see now, what a terrible thing it was that the author of damaging and untrue allegations about Tory leaders and their families was unmasked. No wonder you're in a tiz"
The red rag was a politically backed blog, to take on the notorious "guido fawkes" web site, that had been leaking political slurs for years.
I'm not arguing that they were intended, to possibly be leaked at some time. But the entire culture of leaking info to blogs, is prevalent across all parties.
The only reason the e-mails got out, and appeared on the tory web site is the fact that they were alledgedly hacked.
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I think we all knew it was a non starter and another desperate attempt at smear by Labour.
Matthew Kelly had the affrontery on that ghastly One Show to say he hoped the story would run and run and be as big as the "expenses" debacle.
No way, Matthew, no way. Can see which party you are supporting.
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"Mike, for the last time - NOBODY ordered it, because NOBODY hacked the emails.
But don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant."
McBride claimed they were hacked and leaked. It's easily sourceable. What is your "nobody ordered it or hacked it" based on? Other than blind party allegiance?
Kind of reminds me of "I have no recollection of hacks" by Coulson today.
You should get a job in spin!
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"Oh and when someone actually does something (i.e. resigns) you don't put it in quotation marks. And at least he did take responsibility. More than Brown ever could do."
Linking Brown to this suggests to me that a political debate with you is probably pointless.
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"Mike, Coulson resigned once it was clear that the staff under him had acted as they did. Quote "As editor, I was ultimately responsible".
That's what people with some integrity and conscience do. If only Brown had as much integrity....."
So your accepting he's either a red top cretin, or completely unable to manage any job - let alone the media relations of the PM.
Surely Cameron should sack him then
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The old political saying "keep feeding the big beasts".
Coulson reported to the Tories own sleaze watchdog this week, by a disgruntled back bench old etonian/public expenses sacrifice.
Now Cameron's own sleze busters have to try his own PR man.
The chances of Coulson being indicted? hmmmmmmmm. Probably a bit more chance of these old timers keeping their seats next GE, and the case being dropped
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"Given how the hacking was done why is the committee not forcing the mobile operators to remove the loop hole that lets anyone access your messages from ANY phone when the call you and your your line is engaged.
"
You make a valid point. McBride's e-mails were alledgedly hacked, by someone filling in the "lost password" information, on his e-mail account.
A lot of the issue is slack digital defences
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"It looks like New Labour have looked under the sofa and found enough money to pay for Mike to spread his half-baked thoughts again"
He writes, as he spends the last 2 months, writing "election now", "nicks biased" on every tory blog he can find on the BBC
Hope Tory HQ money is better than Labour
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The Coulson thing was always a 'non-story' except for those people obsessed with trying to land a punch on David Cameron. The BBC should have known better and so should you, Nick. I think the Grauniad was desperately trying to regain the ground it and the rest of the press lost to the Telegraph. It ceased to be a story once the Grauniad admitted a week ago it had absolutely no evidence aon Andy Coulson.
Cameron has once again out-manouvred his opponents.
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Mike Naylor,
Do you have preferential treatment to get your replies posted? My posts take ages, yet magically yours are there quickly.
Also the number of replies you've put in here, you must either be a Political geek or very very sad.
This was a NON story blown up out of nowhere. The next thing you'll be telling me is that Damien McBride should be forgiven as he expressed contrition in a (probably paid for) interview.
And before you accuse me of being Tory, I'm the proverbial floating voter, I vote for who I think will do best for the country, I'm only sorry I was duped in 1997.
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"Really?
You know this for a fact?
Where is your evidence?
Do you not think that someone else may just have received a copy, seen an opportunity to do McBride down (I did hear he had made an enemy or two) and forwarded it to Guido.
This is an important allegation Mike, you should get the Police involved quickly. A thorough investigation of just exactly who was aware of the "red rag" plot within the No. 10 bunker should be conducted immediately. We need to get to the bottom of this, don't you agree"
If you were capable of reading, you could go on the Daily Mail's own web site, and see their coverage of McBride's claims that his e-mails were hacked. Let alone any left wing publication.
The e-mail was between 2 Labour Spin doctors, using private addreesses. And ended up on Guido Fawkes Websites - who had been in open warfare with one of these media men for the last 2 years.
And who spent about the next 2 weeks crowing that he had "brung his nemesis down".
McBride claimed the private files made it onto the Guido web site, as someone had got past the rather flimsy "forgotten password" security of most private e-mail servers.
Of course, I doubt he was expecting anyone to stoop so low to alledgedly hack private e-mails for political momentum
Tom Palmer, basically quit front line politics over the entire affair. Stating that "spin doctors going after spin doctors is a new low".
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Mike:
#102 - what? That's the dumbest post you've thrown up today (and it has a lot of competition, let me tell you...)
# 100 - my post dealt with fact, not opinion. You'd not know the difference, I assume.....
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"I think we all knew it was a non starter and another desperate attempt at smear by Labour"
I do notice Tory voters guffaw at any small oppurtunity against the government. Be it Tessa Jowell's leaked Tesco's receipt, or any other pointless story.
The answer being "sleaze bust we must. election now"!
However, they seem to want anything the other way, well whitewashed.
Maybe move to China. There is only one party there
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Nick,
"Thus, the former editor turned spin doctor provided journalists with a top line for their stories about an otherwise dull enquiry (or am I missing something?)."
Yes, I would say you are missing something with the whole saga of your blogs on this non story.
"None of the MPs who cross-questioned him today managed to blow a hole in that defence - no surprise, perhaps, since the Guardian has declared that it has no evidence to implicate him."
"However, Plaid Cymru's Adam Price did make Coulson look uncomfortable .... Coulson's reply was that he had no involvement in or recollection of the story. No-one said what I imagine many were thinking - "come off it"."
Looked uncomfortable ????? Is this the new level fo the bar for guilt in these types of committes?
As for the "come off it" comment - how do you - or anyone else - have any evidence to support your insinuation here. And "many must be thinking..." is this another new yardstick for establishing guilt?
"he also managed to present himself as a victim rather than a villain in this story."
How do you know he is the "villain" ? Do you -or anyone else - have any evidence to support this view?
It seems to me that is a latest installment of a complete (or incomplete ?) non-story. It isn't really acceptable for someone of your position to to cast such doubt on someones position when there is not a shred of evidence to the contrary. Clearly you are upset at this and seem determined to carry on regardless.
I'm not sure what you did or where you went last week but your blogs since then have been extremely feeble to say the least, with marked anti-tory insinuations. These are your worst ones that I can remember.
When Mike Naylor is wheeled out to support you on here Nick, then you should know that you are in trouble.
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"The Coulson thing was always a 'non-story' except for those people obsessed with trying to land a punch on David Cameron. The BBC should have known better and so should you, Nick. I think the Grauniad was desperately trying to regain the ground it and the rest of the press lost to the Telegraph. It ceased to be a story once the Grauniad admitted a week ago it had absolutely no evidence aon Andy Coulson.
Cameron has once again out-manouvred his opponents"
Tory HQ writes..........
Either you really don't know much about the case, or your just writing twaddle in blind backing of your own part.
The paper never admitted it had any evidence on Andy Coulson. As in, a cheque, to a PI, signed by Andy Coulson.
Just the interesting fact that Cameron's right hand man was in charge, when a newspaper was indicted for hacking people's pjones.
I'm sure if Alaistar Campbell had done the same thing, in Blair's time, you'd be foaming at the mouth.
PS - Coulson has this week been repored to the Tories's own internal sleaze busting inquiry, by a back bencher.
So he will have to face Cameron's own "clean up Britain" inquiry.
Yes brilliantly played Dave.........
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"Mike Naylor,
Do you have preferential treatment to get your replies posted? My posts take ages, yet magically yours are there quickly.
Also the number of replies you've put in here, you must either be a Political geek or very very sad.
This was a NON story blown up out of nowhere. The next thing you'll be telling me is that Damien McBride should be forgiven as he expressed contrition in a (probably paid for) interview.
And before you accuse me of being Tory, I'm the proverbial floating voter, I vote for who I think will do best for the country, I'm only sorry I was duped in 1997"
I just type faster than 2 words a minute...........
It's a none story to people who only want to hear about Brown, sleaze, "election now!"
To anyone with an interest in the media (or a political brain) I'd argue that the Shadow Cabinet leader's right hand man, being in charge of a publication, when it admitted hacking people's phones - is somewhat newsworthy.
Especially when the title in question, has been shown to have completely lied in the official inquiry.
Why on earth do you take their word as gospel now?
Admit it - you'd prefer a whitewash. Maybe move to China. They only have 1 party, the news is nicely censored, and it's pretty right wing
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Does this website belong to Mr Naylor?
Or is he just a manic poster spamming?
I would like his interest declared!
Labour spin doctor?
Sacked spin doctor trying to ingratiate?
What?
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What a crock of ****!
I've never called for an election on these blogs before but for our collective sanity, let's get it over with.
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Well the MP's clean up bill is/has gone thru with a lot of major clauses removed and those clauses that are approved will be reviewed in 2 years.
And MP's will now have financial advisers to advise them at tax payers cost on how to avoid paying TAX.
So in Browns goverment whiter than white is actually turning very soiled brown.
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You have to admire Mike_Naylor for his persistence - someone is getting value for money.
I agree with many on this blog - this is a dead issue we should move on. For that matter the Damien McBride issue is also dead, although many will remember it when it comes to placing our X
Like many posters, I would like some comment in respect of all of today's news that has been delayed until the last day of term. I think that it behoves us to keep the issues to the fore whilst the MPs are in recess.
In case anyone has missed it - Govt borrowing is up enormously and surprise surprise tax revenue is well down. A recipe for disaster?
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Mike_Naylor,
Any comments on the unelected and unaccountable Lord Mandy being on 35 cabinet commitees ?
Or the 799 billion pound national debt, and how it will be repaid ?
Or the treasury not having its accounts approved ?
Just wondering, as you seem to think you know everything about everything else. Only some of us, probably not as clever as you in recognising the gravity and importance of Andrew Coulson, are a bit concerned about the above points.
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I think we may have to rename this Mike Naylor's Newsblog, of the 113 comments, almost 40 have been from Mike Naylor.
Mike, let me give you a tip, start a blog, that way you'll soon be more famous than the "Infamous" Guido Fawkes, who as was pointed out earlier in a reply is not a Tory, but more of a "Plague on all your Houses" sort of bloke where he perceives something wrong.
OK sometimes his perception may be out, but he wasn't with McBride, the emails between McBride and Draper should never have been written, irrespective of whether they were in a bin or not, just the fact they were written shows that McBrid was deeply unpleasant
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Nick, you seemed to have overlooked the fact that Government debt - sorry, that should read PUBLIC DEBT - is now £799 Billion.
I hope you think this story was worth it.
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Sorry Mike,
don't read the Daily Mail, old boy.
The rest of my comments stand. If there is any evidence, let's have an investigation. Perhaps you could petition Gus O'Donnell?
Leaving the office now.
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113 Mike_Naylor
Funny that, I also type at a rate of more than 2 words a minute. Obviously any attempt at a joke (either a politcal geek or very sad) is met by abuse.
I do not understand your comment about WHY I would consider China as a place of domicile, perhaps yu assume that everyone that makes a valid point is rabidly right wing.
In which case, you are sad, no joke intended
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Nick:
That is sobering news, Mr. Cameron aide left the situation unscathed...
I am not affiliated/associated with the The Tory Party
~Dennis Junior~
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87. At 5:32pm on 21 Jul 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
"You've got your facts wrong there. McBride wasn't sacked, he resigned, spineless "Jimmy" Brown didn't have the guts to sack him."
So CAmeron hasn't discplined a single MP over the expenses scandal then? They all resigned.
Isn't that a bit spineless?
===
No Mike, spineless is where you decide to demote your Chancellor to shoehorn in your favourite SPAD as Chancellor, as thanks for services rendered, brief the press about this, and then when the Chancellor shows a bit of backbone and refuses to be moved, doesn't sack him but lies that he never intended to replace him in the first place, contrary to all the evidence.
That's spineless!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Mike_Naylor - various posts, too many to mention but 39 contributions from the first 121 on this blog. Conincidentally a similar percentage on Robinsons similarly themed "Becoming The Story" at the beginning of July.
What exactly is your vested interest in all this?
I can't recall a Robinson blog where a contributor so tenaciously sinks his teeth in to support the Labour Party line and then disappears as quickly as he arrived once the story runs out of legs.
I'm intrigued and perhaps many others here are too - own up for us!!
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117 Old reactionary
Yes please, lets have a debate about these issues.
I noticed in some sections the figures released on debt today were viewed as good news as they were not as bad as expected. However the true value of these figures need to be considered in the climate of massive drops in tax revenues and the inability of the Gov to go outside of it's borrowing announced in it's budget plans.
When these are thrown in for good measure I don't think it looks so bright.
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Mike Naylor, for the avoidance of any doubt, could you clarify for us - has Andy Coulson been referred to the Tories' internal sleaze busting inquiry by a back bencher? Only I heard a rumour....
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118 strictly
The Treasury's accounts not approved - beggars belief! Actually maybe not, if you think about all of those predictions that proved to be wrong.
At least ITV have the Coulson story about right - fifth or sixth item on the news!
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Good grief that Naylor bloke's productive, are trolls paid per post now?
Question for you Mike, a troll check if you will...
Is Gordon Brown, either
a) A liar
b) A scottish saboeteur
c) hopelessly incompetent
d) the right man for the job, a brilliant ex-chancellor who is helping hard working familes, blah blah blah
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Nicholas - I watched a lot of this with tears of laughter streaming down my face. Especially when one MoP was rejected as a possible inquisitor as his (MoPs) mind had allegedly already been made up on the reason for a resignation. From earlier on the record comments from MoP.
The MoP than said in effect - everyone is entitled to his or her say and us chortling members of the public would be allowed to hear both queries and answers and make up out own minds. Yeah! Right.
Presentation! That is all this world allegedly needs now. Coulson presented as "a victim"?
His own mobile phone my have been bugged too? My - what is not to love about that take on things. The screenplay almost writes itself doesn't it?
Can I just comment - Damian McBride heard from recently - put Mr Coulson in the Government camp metaphorical for a second.
How would Mr Cameron react to this supposed outcome?
There is loyalty and then there is "selective vision".
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Leave Mike_Naylor alone !!, his dedication to defending his idol McBride and attacking anyone who dares disagree with his views is comedy gold.
As for the non-story, I along with 99% of people (obviously excluding Mike)who blogged on Nick's site weeks ago querying why Nick was pushing such an obvious non-story.
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"None of the MPs who cross-questioned him today managed to blow a hole in that defence - no surprise, perhaps, since the Guardian has declared that it has no evidence to implicate him."
Exactly!
So now could our newshound kindly invetigate how the heck this became such headline news for so many days, and why the need for a Select Committee investigation!
Yet another example of the BBC promoting yet another Labour Party smear tactic
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127 newthink
I suppose the figure might be considered to be not too bad - if we had a considered plan to get back on track. This Government however do not even see the problem let alone plan for the future.
I believe that the borrowing is expected to grow for the next five years. At some stage our creditors, holders of Government Stock, are going to feel that we are not a good bet and our borrowing will become much more expensive. Thus speeding up the level of debt.
We desperately need a Government who will take the actions necessary and whilst I believe that the Tories are most likely to move in the right direction, I am not so certain that they have the will to go far enough.
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Mike_Naylor
I was accused of being "rabid" in the previous thread after just five posts! Just thought you ought to know.
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"Mike_Naylor wrote:
"You've got your facts wrong there. McBride wasn't sacked, he resigned, spineless "Jimmy" Brown didn't have the guts to sack him."
So CAmeron hasn't discplined a single MP over the expenses scandal then? They all resigned.
Isn't that a bit spineless?"
Do you do any research before you post or do you just type every single thought that comes into your head regardless of if it is correct or not?
While most Tory MPs who are standing down did resign there were others who were forced by Cameron to face the people who elected them (letting the public decide - that is almost democratic!) Cameron threatened to withdraw the party whip to those who didn't agree (he doesn't have the right to sack them as MPs).
As MPs are voted in by the people the leader of a party is unable to remove them as a MP.
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"Mike_Naylor wrote:
"I very much doubt that Nick gets any of his information illegally, although I would suspect that at least some of his information is passed to him from friendly contacts in the Labour party (some of his articles look like he has printed them word for word!)"
You should really get a job in Spin and sleaze yourself.
Again, if you want all (negative) tory news to be whitewashed, maybe read the Daily Mail."
Personally I am quite happy to see negative tory news as I am currently an undecided voter (currently leaning towards the party best suited to getting rid of my Labour MP).
However, considering that this is the fourth blog written by Nick on this subject (which is looking more and more like a non-issue) and that more serious issues are being ignored I can only wonder where Nick is getting his orders from.
To put into context this story has had four blogs from Nick, however the McBride story got none.
You and Nick seem to be two of the only people keeping this story alive.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"Mike_Naylor wrote:
"It looks like New Labour have looked under the sofa and found enough money to pay for Mike to spread his half-baked thoughts again"
He writes, as he spends the last 2 months, writing "election now", "nicks biased" on every tory blog he can find on the BBC
Hope Tory HQ money is better than Labour"
I challenge you to find one (just one) instance where I have written "election now" on a post and link to it here. If I write it on every post it should be easy for you!
I admit that I do think that Nick is biased, but I am far from alone in that. I think it was Sagamix who once said that the bloggers tend to accuse someone of bias when they reply to a post that they don't agree with - which is rather ironic as the people who mostly argue that Nick ISN'T biased tend to attack the Tories every chance they can get.
I have no idea how much Tory HQ pays as I don't work for them, I didn't even vote for them in the last election!
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Reading the comments left here by the people who say "this is a non-story", I can't help wondering if it would be a "non-story" had it been one of Brown's advisiors involved?
Hmm... something tells me the answer would be "no".
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Nick, nothing for days and days then two in one day and both trivia.
Give us some meat please. Fed up with candy floss.
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Bit of a tenuous link with the original post, but Coulson was an editor.
Alan Milburn comes up with a report to say that independent schools provide high percentages of people who are "top journalists", MPs, Lords, Finance Directors, Solicitors, Barristers and Judges, etc.
Is that a surprise?
Which part of the English corriculum stipulates that, to achieve a A-C GCSE, people have to demonstrate a deep and wide-ranging understanding of the grammatical construction of the language?
We've had years of professorial rubbish saying that the most important thng is to enable children to "communicate". Meaning - as long as somebody gets the drift of what you're getting at, you're ok. Well, tell that to a lawyer who's taking apart a contract when a deal goes bad. Tell that to a barrister or judge when the wording of a law is so ramshackle that you could drive a coach and horses through it. Try and write good IT software if you don't have a clue about the underlying structure of the language you're using, or being an analyst if you can't write very precise requirements.
It has nothing to do with "social mobility". It has everything to do with social engineering that has delivered loads of children with wonderful sounding achievements, who need remedial help once they get to university because they simply do not have the fundamental building blocks.
Nothing against teachers. There have always been great ones and a marginal group of dross (as in every walk of life). Just too many politicians confusing "exam results" with education. Two entirely different things.
We have bunches of spin doctors - paid from tax money - "interpreting" political positions. That needs a careful choice of words. We have whole sweeps of public policy so badly thought through and executed that it costs us all millions. So the spinners have to create an illusion that black is simply another shade of very light grey.
We have a government seeking masses of information about each citizen without our knowledge, but now complaining that some individuals seek illegal access to data. For goodness sake, Gordon Brown practically bragged that all the leaks he received as Shadow Chancellor were what allowed him to take the Tories apart. Was that legal?
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Well, well - the blogosphere has come back to life. Safe to come out of the bunker was it? Someone tell Mark Mardell before the garbage being posted there degenerates even further - please.
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140
I would not presume to answer for other Tory leaning bloggers. But I for one would be happy to call a story that had no evidence against a Labour activist a non issue. You see, you will get much more mileage out of a story with evidence. We seem to be spoilt for choice in respect of Gordon Brown's Government.
How would you like to join the discussion in respect of the last minute publication of the poor borrowing figures, non signing off of the Treasury accounts etc.??
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"General_Fondue wrote:
Reading the comments left here by the people who say "this is a non-story", I can't help wondering if it would be a "non-story" had it been one of Brown's advisiors involved?"
Personally I would consider it a non-story. Just as I would consider it to be a story if Cameron was found to have a McBride figure busy creating false accusations to damage the government.
Correct me if I am wrong but there isn't really any new information to this story - apart from that more people were hacked then first thought.
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Disappointed are we Nick.Never was much in this apart from what was stirred up by people of your ilk,'Left of center thinking' I believe its now officially called.
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Will any comment be forthcoming on McPoison's return to the public arena in the form of a grovelling, sorrowful, apologetic and crawling performance on the the prime time 'exclusive' offered to him by the tax paid government propogandist machine that is Five Live yesterday morning?
No?
I didn't think so!
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This is most likely just my opinion (which about 99% of people would disagree with), but I'd say there's no such thing as a non-issue in politics.
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Blimey.
Looks like Mr Naylor has suffered a severe case of blogorrhea today.
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Well Nick, 3 Blogs on the subject spinning the Labour party line. What we need to know is, was this a Labour party spinning attempt that sucked in the Guardian, the BBC and of course yourself.
An explaination is required so come on Nick tell us your sources.
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"General_Fondue wrote:
This is most likely just my opinion (which about 99% of people would disagree with), but I'd say there's no such thing as a non-issue in politics."
I would actually agree with you on that, and this story supports you - if it wasn't for the Cameron angle this story would probably remained in the past.
I imagine if it involved a Labour PR man it would have been ignored by the Guardian and the Mail would be the paper all over it. However, I am surprised that the BBC has been pushing the story that hard - there really doesn't seem to be much there and the only new aspect to the story is that the scale is much wider then first thought and it appears even the editors of the paper involved were being hacked!
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Now back to the news that really matters and will have a far greater impact on all our lives than the Coulson non-story:
"Total outstanding government debt in the UK has risen to a record £799bn, or 56.6% of UK GDP - the highest since records began in 1974".
(Source: BBC Business Website 21st July 2009)
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General_Fondue and Mark_WE
I suppose I do agree that this non-story has become a story, thanks to Labour, The Guardian & Nick.
My definition of a non-story in this context, is an issue seized upon by a desperate party with nothing better to go on. I have no doubt that in the past the Tories and LibDems may also have been tempted to follow this path.
I do sincerely believe however that no benefit will be gained from it in the long term as eventually you will be found out.
Sometimes it takes a little while and can be very dangerous - Tony Blair's 45 minute contention?
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Mike Naylor wrote:
If you were capable of reading, you could go on the Daily Mail's own web site, and see their coverage of McBride's claims that his e-mails were hacked. Let alone any left wing publication.
The e-mail was between 2 Labour Spin doctors, using private addreesses. And ended up on Guido Fawkes Websites - who had been in open warfare with one of these media men for the last 2 years.
And who spent about the next 2 weeks crowing that he had "brung his nemesis down".
McBride claimed the private files made it onto the Guido web site, as someone had got past the rather flimsy "forgotten password" security of most private e-mail servers.
Of course, I doubt he was expecting anyone to stoop so low to alledgedly hack private e-mails for political momentum
Tom Palmer, basically quit front line politics over the entire affair. Stating that "spin doctors going after spin doctors is a new low".
--------
Tom Palmer, the Stade Francais Lock? He took it badly.
Or do you mean Tom Watson, the fat cabinet office slug...
Really Mike, you should do your homework before trying to insult other people's intelligence.
Now, don't you have GCSE re-sits you should be revising for?
Tally ho.
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152 andfinally
and it is going to get worse. The BBC is also reporting that the debt will rise to 75% of GDP over 5 years.
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It is quite amazing that Cameron should employ this self confessed incapable manager as his spin man How much of the spin is rubbish or does he not know what is going out in his name...myself I would not take any Tory story at face value ...We have all been there before and look what happened to the country...of course a lot of the younger people who write dont remember but when they vote Cameron in they will soon see
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154 stevesffox
You paint a poor picture of Tom Watson. I thought that he looked good for a 59 year old on Sunday - although he was showing his age after the fourth play off hole!
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And yet another story that was missed by our intrepid roving reporter in his stubborn pursuit of the Coulson non-story:
" The UK economy is set to shrink by 4.5% in this year, the biggest fall in a single year since 1945, according to an influential think-tank.
The downbeat forecast is more pessimistic than the consensus view, and considerably worse than the 3.5% fall predicted by the government.
The Ernst & Young Item Club also warned that hopes of economic recovery are "running ahead of reality".
(Source: BBC Business Website)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
off topic i know.
I am watching Nick Ross on the BBC at the moment.
The amount of violent crime not reported to the Police is horrendous! More proof of our broken society!
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Just been reading some of the other comments here, and I have to say, some of these insults are a bit... Rubbish.
I mean, Zanulabour? Liebor? Did you come up with them yourself?
Hey, I've got some ideas for insults here along the same lines as these:
Labores
Conservalavatories
Liberal Lameocrats
Please note, the last 4 lines were not meant in an entirely serious way, if anyone hadn't guessed.
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mmm, let's see ... Nick posts a Blog headlined "Cameron Aide Emerges Unscathed" and it triggers an avalanche of clownly posts asserting that the aforementioned Nick is biased against said Cameron
que?
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We can discuss the Coulson non-story all night, all day, all week and ad infinitum if needs be. Meanwhile lurking in the background is a story which requires decisive action.....NOW!
From Times Online July 21, 2009
"Labour under pressure as borrowing rises £13bn.
Britain's debts surged in June as dwindling tax receipts hit the Government coffers, raising public borrowing by £13 billion.
The rise in borrowings has increased concern that the Chancellor may exceed his own forecasts and be forced to borrow more than £175 billion this year.
Public sector net debt rose to £798.8 billion last month, equal to 56.6 per cent of GDP the highest level since records began in 1974.
The dismal figures from the Office for National Statistics underline the stress being placed on the public finances in the wake of the worst economic downturn since the Second World War. Todays figures increase expectations that spending will have to be slashed in order to balance the country's books".
The Coulson non-story serves to illustrate the misplaced priority of our tax paid BBC journalists.
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156. At 9:09pm on 21 Jul 2009, oldsitkaspruce wrote:
It is quite amazing that Cameron should employ this self confessed incapable manager as his spin man How much of the spin is rubbish or does he not know what is going out in his name...myself I would not take any Tory story at face value ...We have all been there before and look what happened to the country...of course a lot of the younger people who write dont remember but when they vote Cameron in they will soon see
-------------
Harrumph!!
It is quite amazing that Brown should employ this self confessed incapable manager as his spin man How much of the spin is rubbish or does he not know what is going out in his name...myself I would not take any Labour story at face value ...We have all been there before and look what happened to the country...of course a lot of the younger people who write dont remember but (if and) when they (ever) vote Labour in (again) they will soon see
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mike_naylor @ 110
"...I do notice Tory voters guffaw at any small oppurtunity against the government. Be it Tessa Jowell's leaked Tesco's receipt, or any other pointless story"
small opportunity against the government?
would you like a list?
- inheriting the best set of financial figures in history, for an incoming government, then turning the countries books into the worst financial position as regards GDP borrowing since records began in 1974
- coming to power with one of the best pension provisions for its people, ever, and in 12 years taxing their profits so much so, that they are now increasing the retirement age for the entire population due to lack of affordable pensions!
- how about opening the UK borders by signing away our veto in europe, then failing to make provision for either keeping count of the amount of people coming in, or housing, schooling, health provision, or any of the impact of any other local services you care to think of.
- what about setting up a new regulatory body over our financial institutions (the FSA), which proceeds to do absolutely nothing to prevent a financial disaster, even when it follows similar policies to other large countries around the world and they fall into difficulty
- perhaps we could discuss exactly why this labour government requires 3,4 sometimes even 5 "new" or "independant" bodies in every area where a consumer is involved, to supposedly enforce protection laws that were already being implemented by 1 regulatory body?
small opportunities?
there are endless opportunities (or as you call them - "pointless stories") to tear this government apart for its complete lack ability.
the reason why these are not discussed on nick robinson's blog, is because 99% of the time, these serious political failings, are ignored by a so called independant BBC correspondant, who instead prefers to use his blog to pander to those in office and making these collossal mistakes, in the hope that they will occasionally throw him some inside knowledge, that might actually be relevant to a story that the public would be interested in!
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162. At 9:23pm on 21 Jul 2009, sagamix wrote:
mmm, let's see ... Nick posts a Blog headlined "Cameron Aide Emerges Unscathed" and it triggers an avalanche of clownly posts asserting that the aforementioned Nick is biased against said Cameron
que?
----
Well, after trying to keep the pot boiling on this non-story with three separate posts (in contrast to his recent conspicuous silence), it did seem to read a bit like:
"Cameron Aide Emerges Unscathed........ B*gg*r!!"
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I'm with andfinally. Whilst the spin stories are quite entertaining, the mess that our economy is currently in is most certainly not. But it is, in my honest opinion much more important.
How many people who voted Labour in the last three elections can honestly say that they are happy that the next three generations are going to be paying for the excesses and busted ideology of Messrs Blair Brown and Co?
What makes matters worse is so far as this blogger can see, things are worse than they were when Labour took office. All that money, (yours and mine) effectively urinated up against the wall.
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154. stevesffox
M_N never lets the facts get in the way of a good rant, or 40.
162. sagamix
It's a hangover from the previous blog. It also triggered the Naylor virus.
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Dear Moderator
Before turning in, it is quite hilarious to see my factual story moderated and yet you continue to perpetuate a non-story that has been shown to be a piece of fiction.
I hope you can sleep as easily as I will tonight.
God Bless and Good Night.
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Oldreactionary
Sorry, tried to join in with the main topic of the day - the debt figures - and then had to go out for a couple of hours.
Nice try but I guess people would rather trade insults on spinners than really push the main issue.
In response to your comment "We desperately need a Government who will take the actions necessary and whilst I believe that the Tories are most likely to move in the right direction, I am not so certain that they have the will to go far enough." I tend to agree as they cannot alienate to the extent that would be required to deliver the savings needed. How far would you like to see them go and at what should they hit?
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Well seems that the story Nick thinks is the biggest one of the day (along with his non-report of his interview with Cameron) has not caused any embarrassment to the Official Opposition, despite the best efforts of the Grauniad and its allies over recent days. You would like to think though that if Labour did not employ the sort of spin-people it does, with the Prince of Darkness' shadow looming long over the fag end of this decaying administration, then Cameron would maybe not feel the need to employ the likes of Coulson?
But Nick, you looked like you did not enjoy it? From the tone of all of your piece, are we to take it that you feel a gross travesty of justice has occurred? It certainly comes across that way. Maybe you would avoid the charges of partiality leveled against you if you stated your actual opinion, separately from reporting fact which you could then be seen to do entirely neutrally? That way, people could be clear about your opinion and not try and deduce it. Are you allowed to do that? Serious question, although I fear that this will be another post to be moderated-off for being off-message.
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#162 sagamix
You can kind of see why the "conspiracy theorists" (myself very much included) are asking questions can't you. Robinson had all sorts to choose from today and yesterday and all we get is a feeble offering about David Cameron and his soap-box, whilst trying to prolong the Coulson thing.
Meanwhile, Mcbridge crawls out blinking from beneath his rock and various horrendous economic figures are announced, almost as an afterthought. Except they are very much a forethought and typical of the manner in which this Government conducts it business.
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Newthink
I believe that a root and branch re think of all Government spending is required with future expenditure focused on three areas, health education and security. I'm no expert but believe that even in these areas there are economies that can be made without impacting upon and may be improving delivery of service. I would like to see Ministers who are not hell bent on increasing their budget though vanity, rather in providing the best possible service for the least amount of funds. ie a much smaller state.
I also believe that, at least in the short term there should be an increase in the standard rate of tax, accompanied by an increase in the personal allowance to ensure that the least well off are not adversely affected. At the same time I want a promise that when the economy is back on track, we will have a commitment to reduce income tax, to levels perhaps lower than they are today. At that time I am in favour of a flat income tax on amounts earned (or unearned) over and above the personal allowance. Hows that for a start?
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polero @ 172
yes but the debt horror show isn't really news, is it? - what WOULD be news would be either of the main parties setting out how they plan to deal with it, but I guess we'll have to wait until nearer the Election ... April now, I gather ... for any semblance of that
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174 Saga
The debt mountain most certainly is news. It is unfortunate that a good proportion of the population do not understand the implications of £800bn of debt. The figure is just too big to comprehend. It seems that we have one party that is sticking its collective head in the sand and another that is afraid to state the action necessary in fear of the political capital that this may give to their enemies.
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would you trust any of these inept fools to run for a bus let alone government????
i know i personally wouldnt.
each party has been hit by scandal and moronic actions each MP is tarnished and close to untrustworthy, the good people of this country need a government that will work for them, be accountable to the people and honestly working for the good of the nation not the party.
a government of the people by the people for the people.
too long have we suffered party this and party that causing this once great nation to become a laughing stock and second class.
media spin doctors working along party lines have fooled the people of this country for too long with scripted sound bytes and well placed media coverage, over paid whores to the system they themselves helped create, and should be removed forthwith.
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Hi Nick,
I don't believe the Coulson/Cameron story was ever more than smear tactics, and the fact that you now say The Guardian had "no evidence" would seem to prove that.
However, although you have unfortunately missed some really big important stories since the 9th July, perhaps you could now start reporting on something worthwhile.
How about a piece in the morning on Foreign Office Minster Malloch-Brown's departing shot at the Government? He admits there IS a shortage of helicopters AND he also questions GBs insistance that the war in Afghanistan is being fought to stop terrorism here, saying that pakistan and Somalia are a greater threat!
Funny how all the G.O.A.T.S are leaving before the ship sinks
Oldreactionary@173
I would go along with most of your proposals. Flat rate tax is definitely the way to go.
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Re my 173
I should of course have mentioned that a further plank of expenditure at least in the short term would have to be social security to pay for the 3 million that would be unemployed by the next election and I suspect greater numbers as an austerity package kicks in.
A further elephant in the room is of course the pension issue which must be put on a self financing basis before too long. May be the higher tax regime would have to last a little longer. Mr Brown you have a lot to answer for!
My head hurts - time for bed I think
oldreactionary out!
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A little strange to accuse 1 non tory commentor of being a paid 'Troll'. When their are 100s of many(?) others comments trying to supress any criticism of Cameron. 'Look at me! Im standing on a box without a tie on! ' was a 'photo op' which means that Cameron wanted it to be covered and another was informing us that his communication has no case to answer. You should be pleased by that. Why so many comments if these are none stories?
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Mike_Naylor et al and Nick Robinson
As a first time writer this is all very boring.
The people voting at the next general election are not worried about Andy Coulson. They are worried about their jobs and the massive debt this country has and how we are going to pay it off.
The election is going to be about who the public trust to the economy back on its, give our troops the necessary equipment and make sure our streets our safe.
The party that wins the public trust will win the next general election. I think we should have more blogs on this the real issues the public is worried about.
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old reactionary @ 175
well, I'd say the National Debt is not "news" but it's interesting and extremely important - the Peston blog is where you get a good discussion of that sort of thing - here chez Nick, it's more of a "what's going on around Westminster" type of affair ... as, to be fair, it does say on his strapline ... and so this Cameron spin doctor drama is an obvious story to cover - be odd if he didn't
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As usual, thanks to all of you for an interesting view of politics in England. I always thought the American view of you as "quaint" and "old-fashioned" was a bit patronising till I read both sides of your Twedledum/dee tantrums.
You guys are SO 20th century!
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what a pathetic excuse for a pm we have right now,gutless useless incompetant,what authority does this man have? hes condemming young people to a pointless death in various battle areas,not elected by anybody ,including his own party, left the country in a financial shambles,and now we hear we are all approx 13000 in debt,well im not because i havnt got anything in the first place!!!!but 1 thing is for sure my working class vote doesnt go to labour,they can go and get stuffed.brownwatch 313 days.
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Mike Naylor
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Mike Naylor says
I do notice Tory voters guffaw at any small oppurtunity against the government. Be it Tessa Jowell's leaked Tesco's receipt, or any other pointless story.
The answer being "sleaze bust we must. election now"!
However, they seem to want anything the other way, well whitewashed.
Mike, if you wish to comment, please make it intelligible
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Price suggested this story could only have come from the illegal phone hacking. Coulson's reply was that he had no involvement in or recollection of the story. No-one said what I imagine many were thinking - "come off it".
Suggested, eh? That's all the expert testimony I need. Then what follows comes from the 'Don't tell him, Pike' school of reporting, if more direct than hiding behind 'sources' to come out with personal opinion.
I await with grim resignation broadcast 'news' readers tapping the sides of their noses and winking when reading out a narrative that some feel needs 'enhancing' such that events get 'better' interpreted by those less able to grasp the 'truth'. Yet if called to account, what is the betting only written transcripts are provided?
Say what you mean; mean what you say. But be prepared to live with the consequences, and not hide behind silly tricks.
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Oldnat and #182.
Ooooh, look England, there's that cute little new Scotland feeling the air beside the Holyrood House!
Obviously come straight from a Scotch Breakfast and buoyed up by the meal as they look ahead brim-full of thistled barbs at the English!
The last Scottish Coronation was that of Charles II at Scone, 1 January 1651, and so looking forward would seem a logical strand of Hogmanay thought for any north of the border: Mind, from Dumbarton to Stonehaven there's a rising temper of 'them and us' in the Highlands as they perceive south from Stirling their supposed kith and kin 'taking the cream off the water' to the Lowlands as it seeks Brussels' coinage for a new dawn based around Edwin's burgh.
Tho' you hurry on in your big, bold, independent 21st Century Scotland have a care... for the attractions Europa may dazzle but there's many a slip on offer when you hold a candle to the devil!
Fare thee well or as RLStevenson would have it: 'Neither one of us looked the other in the face, nor so long as he was in my view did I take one back glance at the friend I was leaving. But as I went on my way to the city, I felt so lost and lonesome, that I could have found it in my heart to sit down by the dyke, and cry and weep like any baby...'
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181 sagamix
"Cameron spin doctor drama"
It's not very dramatic for a drama is it ?
As for your comment on the 799 billion debt. Would Harriet describe this as "shocking" or does she reserve such strength of language for really important issues such Arlene Phillips being removed from Strictly Come Dancing ?
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Government minister admits "not enough helicopters" in Afghanistan
How about that story Nick?
Can't do that because it is critical of Brown? Maybe you can discover information that it was all Dave's fault?
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187. And we have an unelected Scottish Prime Minister who pushed his way in after another Scottish Prime Minister (Blair - yes he WAS) who stepped into a deceased Scottish man's shoes (John Smith).
Suggest we get them to go back to Scotland and try and rule them.
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185. That's rich. Labour are guilty of gross whitewash.
They even made a public announcement that this summer was going to be hotter than ever (trying to rule the climate again) and told us, get this, told us to whitewash our houses! The cheek of them!
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187, and just what part of the EU do you think England is avoiding?
We have no " thistle barbs " for you my friend , we send our sympathy for we realise the difficulty of choice you have come a general election!
Which is comin' yet for 'aw that!
( Despite the Daily Mail jibe of one Mr Naylor!)
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Another attempt by Labour to divert its abject failure on the economy, MP expenses and Law and Order. and once again it comes to nothing. Amazing that this comes out at the same time as the worst borrowing figures for a government blows GB prudence claim
When PM Mandelsohn ( sorry GB it's hard to tell when an unelected lord chairs more meeting that the Dead Man Walking PM )stops worrying about changing the law to give himself a chance of being a real future PM then there'll be a story
The only story yesterday was the Coulson, as head of the company, took responisbility for its failings on his watch. Maybe a precedent there!
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Strictly Pickled.
Your posts are brilliant. Clever, informed, articulate.
It's worth trawling through the wordy rubbish to read yours alone.
Long may you continue. :);)
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113. At 6:11pm on 21 Jul 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
"Mike Naylor,
Do you have preferential treatment to get your replies posted? My posts take ages, yet magically yours are there quickly.
I just type faster than 2 words a minute...........
=========================================================
Yes Mike, the speed you type shows - just a pity your brain can't keep up.
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"sagamix wrote:
old reactionary @ 175
well, I'd say the National Debt is not "news" but it's interesting and extremely important - the Peston blog is where you get a good discussion of that sort of thing - here chez Nick, it's more of a "what's going on around Westminster" type of affair ... as, to be fair, it does say on his strapline ... and so this Cameron spin doctor drama is an obvious story to cover - be odd if he didn't"
You mean odd in the way that the McBride story went uncovered?
This is only a story because the media have made it a story. Even the Guardian and Nick admitted when they were pushing the story a few weeks back that there was no evidence against Coulson, however that didn't stop them from trying to tie the scandal to Cameron (scandals are like spagetti if you throw enough eventually something will stick).
At no point in time has evidence against Coulson been presented. The only guilt is by association and Nick's blogs have tried to associate that guilt further by linking it to Cameron e.g Cameron aide emerges unscathed - why not "Coulson: No case to answer"?
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#173 Oldreactionary
I like your start point. I too believe that a huge chunk of savings could be made through better procurement especially in the areas of defence (£1 billion increase in costs on aircraft carriers, 8 Chinnocks bought but unusable etc), and in health.
As for education, if the standard of secondary school education was sufficiently high then the need to gain a degree would not be neccessary. Unfortunately now (and I say this as a mature student having to study for a degree in order to apply for any job over £20k despite 18 years of management experience) a degree is devalued to the extent that if you do not have one then you are almost viewed as illiterate.
I would also like to see some control over local and regional administrations as these seem to be expanding at an alarming rate.
As for tax increases, they're inevitable but I hope someone can come up with something a bit more imaginative that the standard increases we have come to expect. Would be good to see tax used in a positive way rather than just making the normal easy hits.
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Re Mike_Naylor. If you click on his name above one of his posts it lists as his previous posts.
If you look through his postings he has only come into the blogosphere since the Coulson story broke and has only commented on the original Coulson story floated by Nick and this one.
Nothing else seems to interest him.
Is he Damien McBride or another new labour apparatchnik in disguise?
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Nick, its a new day, perhaps you'd like to comment on the lack of helicopters, the swine flu advice line, the unelected Mandy lording it over all of us, or even that amazing debt - all thinks that are being overseen by the government currently in power.
People are dying you know.
No doubt we'll get another blog about Camerons favorite underpants or something similar that has such a huge effect on all our lifes.
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The one thing to come out of this select committee is the paucity of talent and intelligence amongst our MPs. They all behave like good drones and undoubtedly toe the party line when whipped, but when placed in a situation where they have to quiz someone and display some ingenuity to unearth the facts of the matter they are found wanting.
I am reminded of the occasion where George Galloway was hauled up before a US Senate hearing about his involvement with Saddam Hussein's oil for food program where he verbally took them apart. Coulson did pretty much the same but in a very understated manner. The MP's bowling attack was more the girls from St Trinian's bowling underarm rather than Freddie Flintoff
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'None of the MPs who cross-questioned him today managed to blow a hole in that defence - no surprise, perhaps, since the Guardian has declared that it has no evidence to implicate him.'
So, for the last five or six weeks, the BBC has been running a story about the Conservative Party press officer based on no evidence? Am I right in that or is the above a mistake?
As I read it, therefore, there can only be one reason why the BBC has continued to run this story based on no evidence. I'll leave other contributors to make their own conclusions.
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Again, may I direct anyone who nhates the BBC to the following links- www.dailymail.co.uk, [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator].
If you don't like where you are, go somewhere you do!
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For all those commenting on Nick's alleged unbalanced coverage on the McBride and Coulson stories:
To be fair to Nick he was, so he says and why should we doubt him, out of the country at the time the McBride email scandal broke.
His first blog on his return referred to the scandal thus:
"I spent the past two weeks not just out of the country but away from virtually all sources of news. I left Britain the day after Gordon Brown's G20 "triumph" - words of praise from presidents and prime ministers were still ringing in his ears - and I returned to a series of polls confirming the damage done to him and to Labour by those e-mails."
'Back to Work' 20 April
"those e-mails" No other comment or reference.
vs
5, five, cinq, funf, cinco... blogs dedicated to the Coulson story.
Draw your own conclusions.
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'Voters urged to keep track of MPs during summer break'
Parliament began recess for the summer yesterday, and it will be for 82 days - including 57 working days - before MPs return to the House of Commons on October 12.
Campaign group 38 Degrees is conducting an MP Holiday Watch survey to establish how much work gets done during the 12-week recess.
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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# 202 tengearbatbike:
Again, may I direct anyone who nhates the BBC to the following links- www.dailymail.co.uk, [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator].
If you don't like where you are, go somewhere you do!
*********************
Sentiments echoed by the BNP. So you now have zero credibility.
Honestly, if you are going to expect open and factual political debate, please don't act like what you really want is a totalitarian state where every one is welcome as long as they agree with everything you say.
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# 198
Ian, of course he is. He's also very bad at his job, because he's convinced nobody here that he's right....
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will the real Prime Minister please stand up........
Lord Mandelson sits on the following Cabinet committees:
* National Economic Council
* Better Regulation
* Democratic Renewal Council
* Domestic Policy Council (which he deputy chairs)
* Domestic Affairs
* Borders and Migration
* Communities and Equalities
* Food
* Families, Children and Young People
* Health and Wellbeing
* Justice and Crime
* Local Government and the Regions (which he chairs)
* Public Engagement and the Delivery of Services
* Life Chances
* Talent and Enterprise
* Economic Development
* Environment and Energy
* Housing, Planning and Regeneration
* Olympic and Paralympic Games
* Productivity, Skills and Employment
* Constitution
* National Security, International Relations and Development
* Europe
* Overseas and Defence
* Africa
* Afghanistan and Pakistan
* Trade
* Protective Security and Resilience
* Public Services and Public Expenditure
* Public Sector Pay and Pensions
* Pandemic Influenza Planning
* Post Office Network (which he chairs)
* Flood planning
* PM's ad hoc Committee on International Climate Change
* PM's ad hoc International Climate Change Negotiations
this is on top of his day job as Secretary of State for everything... What chance democracy when an unelected person has so much power when he cannot be called to account by the electorate...
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Shame that Mike Naylotr and all the newlabour aplogists are taking the Coulson news so badly.
There was no evidence of any wrong doing.
Isn't that the standard newlabour response to everything?
Shame you take it so badly now the tories have learned your tricks.
Bless.
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20. At 3:47pm on 21 Jul 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
Mike
I think ZaNuLabour is an extremely apt description for anyone who has the eyes to see.
Unfortunately you see the world through Labour Rose tinted specks
It cannot be argued with that nick latches on to some stories and ignores a great many very important ones and his judgement is question because of the focus he places on story's like this.
He has been lead again by Mandy and has been seen to have his own agenda.
The whole point of this piece is focused that Coulson did it but we just haven't pinned it on him yet.
I don't believe what the political lobby say because if they dont report in certain way then they are not given the leads by then government spin machine.
I can only therefore surmise that Nick feel that McPoison needs to be avenged and he jumped on the Band Wagon yet again.
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I struggle to see the point of this Coulson witch hunt, there is no new evidence, the police are not going to investigate further. What I ask myself is the point at all. The man resigned from his job as Editor because issues happened on his watch that he should have been aware of. To my knowledge he has done nothing wrong in his new job with Cameron. What does anyone hope to gain from this whole exercise.
Do we really care about how a few non celebrities who use the press for their own means most of the time anyway and then complain when it does not suit them feel about the press. This case was closed ages ago and should have remained so.
Good grief if this is the only thing everyone thinks we have to worry about in this Country, then they must be living in a different Country to me.
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Interesting comment about GOATs resigning. This also goes for certain Ministers, such as Geoff Hoon. There are rules that prevent Cabinet Ministers accepting Directorships and employment from organisations they have been working with or within their field of influence as a Minister, for 12 months. So, resign now and after the election in May/June 2010 these people can continue working/troughing. This shows that many Ministers, both MPs and Lords appointees, have no faith in Gordon Brown winning the next election.
Any views?
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i don't think he emerged 'unscathed' - claiming he had no memory of the NotW story he was specifically questioned about by the comitee, involving messages left on the prince's phones, has completely destroyed his credibility.
Watch Cameron bin him once the fuss has died down.
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207. At 10:59am on 22 Jul 2009, jolo13 wrote:
will the real Prime Minister please stand up........
Lord Mandelson sits on the following Cabinet committees:
* National Economic Council
* Better Regulation
* Democratic Renewal Council
* Domestic Policy Council (which he deputy chairs)
* Domestic Affairs
* Borders and Migration
* Communities and Equalities
* Food
* Families, Children and Young People
* Health and Wellbeing
* Justice and Crime
* Local Government and the Regions (which he chairs)
* Public Engagement and the Delivery of Services
* Life Chances
* Talent and Enterprise
* Economic Development
* Environment and Energy
* Housing, Planning and Regeneration
* Olympic and Paralympic Games
* Productivity, Skills and Employment
* Constitution
* National Security, International Relations and Development
* Europe
* Overseas and Defence
* Africa
* Afghanistan and Pakistan
* Trade
* Protective Security and Resilience
* Public Services and Public Expenditure
* Public Sector Pay and Pensions
* Pandemic Influenza Planning
* Post Office Network (which he chairs)
* Flood planning
* PM's ad hoc Committee on International Climate Change
* PM's ad hoc International Climate Change Negotiations
this is on top of his day job as Secretary of State for everything... What chance democracy when an unelected person has so much power when he cannot be called to account by the electorate...
-------------------------------------------------------
Excellent post - this is a far bigger scandal than the Coulson incident will ever be.
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"Watch Cameron bin him once the fuss has died down."
Not in one of my bins I hope - I'd incinerate - land fill's too good for him.
I may be a simple binman but what does this mean - "Naylotr and all the newlabour aplogists" (208) Come on RobinJD show us the benefit of your expensive education.
I'm new to this but there seem to be some very unpleasant people on here. Is it some kind of club for the very bitter?
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Illegal phone 'hacking' is of course a very serious matter and anyone involved should be prosecuted.
However, far more worrying is the amount of phone tapping and surveillance carried out legally by local authorities as allowed by Labour's Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA).
A report in today's Telegraph refers to the widespread abuse of these powers by local councils.
Under this dangerous and misguided Act, the powers were intended to be used to prevent serious crime or terrorism. But in a democracy (as opposed to a tin-pot dictatorship) crime detection should be a matter for the police, not local officials.
An incoming Tory government should remove these powers from local authorities as a matter of urgency. Local Government should stick to collecting rubbish, not snooping on private citizens.
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Mike Naylor @98....
"The only reason the e-mails got out, and appeared on the tory web site is the fact that they were alledgedly hacked."
Can you please explain,Mike, how 'the FACT that they were ALLEDGEDLY hacked' stacks up?
Either it's a fact,or it's an allegation...can't see how it can be both.
Perhaps you could ask your controller the question..he might be able to help you out.
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Gordons press conference latest.....
He still won't answer a question (by Nick - the first question in the press conference eh?)about spending cuts.
HE STILL THINKS WE'RE IDIOTS.
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Is Mike_Naylor on a day off, I do miss him? It's like a one to one with a Spin Doctor.
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This is unbelievable....
-He won't answer questions about spending cuts
-He says we have enough helicopters in Afgan (you don't fight a war in helicopters he says, you don't fight a war from submarines either so are they worthless?) then goes on to say that we are buying more helicopters and finally after 8 years sorting out the Chinnocks that have been sitting in hangers to send over there. Why if we have enough?
The PM is a clown, how do we get him out of office NOW?
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#214 AshleyBinman
...is it some kind of club for the very bitter?.....
Not at all, closer to a representative sample of the UK electorate more likely. That is to say, probably quite typical of the country at large presently, disenchanted with this failing Government's endless succession of pie crust promises, for whom the Prime Minister long coveted the top job and has been found seriously wanting in most policy areas once he attained his ambition.
Quite a few contributors here believe Nick Robinson is selective in his choice of blogging topics, for whatever reason often preferring to leave well alone stories that paint Gordon Brown and others in a bad light and for me, quite transparently so.
I don't think this blog has quite the rancour and often insulting language you could find on, say, Guido Fawkes blog. There, if you cut through the profanities not many political stories are off limits.
Stick around, pre-supposing David Cameron and the Conservatives are returned at the General Election, I for one will be very interested to see how this blog changes if at all, both in subject matter and contributions.
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214 AshleyBinman
"Watch Cameron bin him once the fuss has died down."
Not in one of my bins I hope - I'd incinerate - land fill's too good for him.
===============================
Can you tell us all exactly what Andy Coulson has done that makes you arrive at this viewpoint ?
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AshleyBinman wrote:
I'm new to this but there seem to be some very unpleasant people on here. Is it some kind of club for the very bitter?
=============
in a word, yes.
although i think most would deny any unpleasantness and plead 'passion' for their rants.
Some are so passionate that they make pretty much the same points day in, day out regardless of the topic of Mr Robinson's article.
Still passes the time.....
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212 goldcaesar
"i don't think he emerged 'unscathed' - claiming he had no memory of the NotW story he was specifically questioned about by the comitee, involving messages left on the prince's phones, has completely destroyed his credibility."
===============================
Destroyed his credibility with who ? Do you have any real information to suggest that his answer is incorrect ?
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Djlazarus# saved me time and effort - encapsulates exactly WHO is running the UK - and very badly at that - FRIGHTENING.
Oh, as Nick stated, the Guardian had NO evidence to link Coulson to any illegality - a Liebour and BBC NON STORY.
Where is Mike Naylor - I am still laughing at his rants - come back Mike - we need a good laugh these days.
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214. At 12:03pm on 22 Jul 2009, AshleyBinman wrote:
"Watch Cameron bin him once the fuss has died down."
Not in one of my bins I hope - I'd incinerate - land fill's too good for him.
I may be a simple binman but what does this mean - "Naylotr and all the newlabour aplogists" (208) Come on RobinJD show us the benefit of your expensive education.
I'm new to this but there seem to be some very unpleasant people on here. Is it some kind of club for the very bitter?
------------------
Have to admire the irony and hypocrisy of someone who professes a desire to incinerate someone, and then calls others unpleasant.
Club for the very bitter? Well I guess in a way it is, but only insofar as the vast majority of the UK are very bitter about the way our economy has been systematically and thoroughly wrecked by the gurning imbecile at the helm.
I think this is ample reason to be bitter, don't you?
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# 220 Ilicipolero:
Stick around, pre-supposing David Cameron and the Conservatives are returned at the General Election, I for one will be very interested to see how this blog changes if at all, both in subject matter and contributions.
*********
I get the feeling it won't change at all - although the bias in the blogs will be trumpeted as 'holding the Conservative Government to account', something that Nick has failed to do to the current Government for years.....
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===============================
223. At 12:36pm on 22 Jul 2009, StrictlyPickled wrote:
Destroyed his credibility with who ? Do you have any real information to suggest that his answer is incorrect ?
==========================
No evidence just a deep reservation that the man who is ultimately in charge of a newspaper that only publishes 52 front page headlines a year would be completely unfamiliar with one of them or the story attached to it.
He was the man who greenlights the headlines after all..
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Nick, you've changed man.
Labour has put out your fire.
Namby Pamby blog topics designed so as not to offend the political establishement.
Well here are a few subjects that may be worth discussing: -
Bangladesh people trafficking franchises hiding behind the restaurant trade. Stealing the Identities of UK citizens and counterfeiting passports, driving licenses etc (Thats a subject that the Government has brushed under the carpet)
What about the Police woman suspended from duty for talking about the crime wave caused by illegal immigrants?
Or how about the banking practice of creating money out of thin air to lend out as credit based upon the banks reserve?
How about Labour's policy of perpetual debt fueled by consumer credit?
The list is endless.
Lets forget about the margins of politics and minor personalities.
Lets get down to the real issues that are undermining our country.
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227 goldcaesar
"Deep reservation" ??? Obviously, he has to go then ......
A few weeks ago John Prescott was demanding that he be sacked by David Cameron, and subsequent "deep reservations" are about all there are to "substantiate" the allegations.
I have to admit though, that I enjoyed the irony of John Prescott demands for him to be sacked. It's not like Andy Coulson was having intimate relations with members of his staff during office time on company premises.
I don't think that David Cameron needs John Prescotts advice on how to deal with staff beneath them in a hands on manner.
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"goldCaesar wrote:
No evidence just a deep reservation that the man who is ultimately in charge of a newspaper that only publishes 52 front page headlines a year would be completely unfamiliar with one of them or the story attached to it.
He was the man who greenlights the headlines after all.."
I agree that you would expect the editor to have final say on the front page headlines (unless of course they have a management structure where each area of the paper has it's own editor e.g. Features Editor, Gossip Editor etc.)
However, my understanding of the true tabloids is that they seem to work on the principle that they get more money from running the feature (and running the risk of getting sued) then they lose in payouts. I don't consider the Mail or the Express as true tabloids as they don't tend to go for the big shocking headlines in the way the Mirror or Sun do (even those who hate the Mail for it's politics have to admit that as a paper it is a step above the true tabloids).
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The ignorant majority in the UK sicken me.
I find it incredible that the masses are absorbed by celebrity, soaps, football, chava trash television, and reality shows.
The subject of this blog is another example, a subject without real substance.
But ofcourse this is all by design.
An ignorant population is easy to control.
Like sheep they follow the latest fashion; advertisments telling them what to buy and from who.
Talentless soap stars showing them how to behave.
Labour laws and political correctness designed to stifle free speech and self expression subjugating, those of us that still have free will.
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229. At 1:05pm on 22 Jul 2009, StrictlyPickled wrote
Maybe John Prescott could give us all some advice on how our children can set up Property Empires in Hull.
Lets all have a bite of that cherry, preferably without regurgitation.
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David Cameron promised to put an end to Punch and Judy Politics and he managed to take PMQ's to a new low. He also promised to end the culture of Spin and then got caught out cycling to work accompanied by his Chauffeur Driven Car. If he is seriou about ending the appalling culture of spin why does he need to employ a man with Coulson's track record at a salary above that of any Cabinet Minister?
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231, If we sicken you so much are you saying life is better in Zimbabwe then?
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"David Cameron will be told that his valued aide has emerged unscathed from today and may even break into a grin when he learns that he also managed to present himself as a victim rather than a villain in this story."
Nick, having re-read your post just now (in the vain hope that you may have printed an update in the face of overwhelming evidence to your political bias) I have to take issue with the above final paragraph.
For what it's worth, all the evidence, and the findings of the commitee, and the statements form the press associations involved, and all 'witnesses, show that Andy Coulson did not "manage... to present himself as a victim rather than a villain...". He WAS the victim - of cheap slurs against his character that have been discussed and judged to be completely groundless.
Attempting to paint this as Coulson and David Cameron having a sly wink at each other (as if they had 'got away with it') is simply a fruther futile attempt at a smear from you that belittles your position and reduces the public's faith in the BBC's ability to fulfil it's charter obligation to be politically impartial.
I hope (but do not expect) for an update apologising to Mr Coulson for the way he has been targetted in this and previous blog posts of yours.
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Here's another couple of Blog topics.
Why is little Lord Mandle-Foy on 35 select committees?
(Is he getting paid to be on each one @ 14k a pop?)
799 Billion UK debt is a staggering amout.
How does Gorgon Brown plan for us to pay this debt off?
How much will the UK tax payer need to fork out to pay the annual interest?
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#233 billatbasing
PMQ's, perhaps not the greatest example you could have chosen with which to criticise David Cameron. Week after week Gordon Brown is made to look decidedly amateur. I can forgive Cameron for failing to put an end to Punch and Judy politics when Gordon Brown failed spectacularly to end "Boom and Bust" and then denied he ever used the phrase.
If Andy Coulson is found to be complicit in anything from his previous career he should be dropped like a hot potato by the Conservative Party. Interesting you mention track records, because the odious Lord Mandelson, I'm not certain how much he earns, is a past master at the apalling culture of spin and wields considerable influence and power within the halls of Westminster. Coulson, if proven guilty, has some distance to go to reach the track record of Mandelson.
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234. At 1:38pm on 22 Jul 2009, flamepatricia wrote:
Of course I don't mean my fellow bloggers.
What would I do with out you?
I mean the general public.
The Knife wielders.
The drunken yobs.
The unemployed soap watchers.
The boy racers.
Pick Pockets, Burglars, Tax evaders, Traffic Wardens, Etate agents, Solicitors, Politicians (of the Labour persuasion).
Labour Moderators, Talentless over paid celebrities (Ross and co) etc.
Anyway ... you get the idea.
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233 billatbasing
"David Cameron promised to put an end to Punch and Judy Politics and he managed to take PMQ's to a new low. "
DC only askes the questions, its Gordon Brown who fails to answer them, preferring to recite prepared statements usually of tangential relevance (if any) to the question. That is root of the new low you mention.
"He also promised to end the culture of Spin and then got caught out cycling to work accompanied by his Chauffeur Driven Car."
Not sure how these two issues are linked, unless you are talking about the spinning of his cycle wheels. DC obviously wishes to keep fit by cycling to work, and can't carry all the files etc he needs which are in the car. This is in line with the governments policies on health and fitness I believe. I understand that Gordon Brown uses a stationary gym bike for exercise - he obviously feels at home on it, lots of huffing and puffing without actually getting anywhere.
"If he is seriou about ending the appalling culture of spin why does he need to employ a man with Coulson's track record at a salary above that of any Cabinet Minister? "
Presumably because he is doing a good job in his employers view. The governemnt, on the other hand, can barely announce anything without it being hastely followed by "clarifications". The Tories don't seem to have this problem.
Easy, let me exp
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billatbasing @ 233....
"If he is seriou about ending the appalling culture of spin why does he need to employ a man with Coulson's track record at a salary above that of any Cabinet Minister?"
Could you please elaborate on Coulsons' track record?
What 'crime' has he been found guilty of committing?
You are clearly suggesting that he has done something 'wrong',but where is your evidence which, btw,no one else seems capable of unearthing?
If you are simply riling against spin doctors,that's fine..as long as you are universal in your condemnation.
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'Expenses clean up bill passed'
Seems that the pigs looked up briefly from the trough before diving straight back in.
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"207. At 10:59am on 22 Jul 2009, jolo13 wrote:
will the real Prime Minister please stand up........
Lord Mandelson sits on the following Cabinet committees:
long list.."
jolo but just think how much severance pay we will be paying him the day after the next election!
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THE MESSENGER SEEMS TO HAVE ONE AGENDA?
DISCREDIT THE TORIES!!
MANY OF US ARE GETTING TIRED OF YOUR BIAS MR R??
THIS POST IS NOT OFFENSIVE JUST LIKE THE TWO DELETIONS FROM YESTERDAY
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I'snt it the goverment that says its VERY VERY bad for MP's to have second jobs....
Yet their key player in the goverment, seams to have 35 extra jobs in adddition to his parragraph long job title and multi factored govermental job and seat in the lords.
Oh well, one of these days we might get a joind up goverment where reteric actually matches actions.
Like with the helicoptors:- Every one knows, because Brown keeps telling us, that we have hundreds of "stelth" helicopters on the front line just they are at shcu a top secert base that no one not even the army knows exactly where they are. We just have to take it in blind faith from Gordan that they have been deployed.
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I notice that Gordon has said today that the uk has enough helicopters and that the previous statement disputing this has been 'modified'. Of course gordon didn't say we have enough helicopters in afganistan, or even we have enough 'working' helicopters. Just enough helicopters.
Apparently we're well prepared for swine flu too - god help us all.
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Neither THE BBC or MR ROBINSON ARE INTERESTED IN THE REAL ISSUES
LIKE THE HELICOPTER ISSUE OR UNEMPLOYMENT, PUBLIC SECTOR DEBT ETC ETC
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"sweetAnybody wrote:
Apparently we're well prepared for swine flu too - god help us all."
Well the excuses for Swine Flu are in place, they can reuse the credit crunch ones - it started in (the) America(s) and we are well placed to see out the crisis!
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Re the speculation on where Naylor comes from.
I find it hard to believe that Mike_Naylor was simply a concerned citizen sitting in his lounge, blogging from the heart. Call me an old cynic if you like!
What I do note in all of this, is that Coulson's adept performance yesterday, particularly slipping in the point that he himself was one of the bugging victims, damages no organisation more than the poor old Guardian. In truth, by running so vigourously with a story that they couldn't substantiate and that has proven so easy to pick holes in, they have managed a considerable degree of self harm. So, with them having the greatest need to paper over some rather severe cracks, I would reckon that Naylor comes from Guardian HQ.
The way his later posts decended into a typographical disaster area merely lends further credibility to the theory - they were so much like the dear old Grauniad itself.
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Am I correct in thinking that Coulson's salary is paid by the Conservative Party and McBride's salary was paid by the tax payers? Apart from the 'phone hacking story being a re-hash by the Guardian, surely the fact that Coulson is directly employed by the Conservative Party makes a significant difference.
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I think the biggest two issues which showed this Government up for exactly what they are this week, were first the totally inept Cooper on the subject of child poverty. In the vain hope that the Conservatives would oppose their rather ridiculous politices in this area, so they could say the Conservatives did not care about child poverty, the hapless Cooper presented the guildlines by which a future Government would have to eradicate child poverty by 2020. Every word she uttered was more about anti Conservative spin than about child proverty. It obviously had not occurred to her that it had been Labours job for the last 12 years to succeed in this particular area. Was it not Blair that said he would make child poverty a thing of the past in this Country. Child poverty has increased under Labour therefore they were highlighting their own failure. Child poverty is complicated, as most experts will tell you. However a benefit system which penalises people going back to work and an education system which is failing badly particularly in poor areas does not help.
The second was Equitable Life the Government keeps putting off this problem of compensation in the hope more people will die before it it resolved. They also hope if they hold out long enough that a future government will have to sort it out. A decision has again been postponed.
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Nothing from Mike Naylor recently. Perhaps like our MP's he has broken up for the summer?
I agree with Mr Curzon in 246 there are much more important political issues to be discussed.
How about Lord Foulkes slur on the Head of the armed forces in the Lords yesterday?
Or just who do we believe about there being enough helicopters in Afghanistan?
Or the huge amount of bad news pushed out earlier this week such as the treasury's figures being qualified all cunningly hidden by the Lords Test story?
Or the huge amounts quietly dropped from the MP's rules that was passed quietly and barely reported on since
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8161676.stm
Or the huge number of committees chaired by our unelected de facto PM. No not the Scottish one but Lord Mandelson
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8161914.stm
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Never mind Nick! I am sure that you find something else newsworthy to write about the Tories.
Even with all the dirt and muck flying about with NewLab, and your effort to ignore them, its getting embarrassing saying that you are impartial..
Why hasnt there been any mention from you about Peter Mandleson and his growing power in Government, despite not being an elected member of the cabinet.
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62. At 4:57pm on 21 Jul 2009, newmickmick wrote:
...The reason I am writing I am hoping someone on here will enlighten me as to how you and "Rob" still have a job with the BBC when you get so much flack. I am not asking you as I don't expect you to be there, you can't read all these comments about you surely and still come back for more...
NR doesn't read the comments on his blog (and I don't suppose anyone else from the BBC does either, other than a moderator). Apparently he was put off by all the 'Zanuliebour' football-chant drivel from the Tory trolls who infest this blog and considered that there wasn't much point.
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Susan Croft,
I agree with everything you say and my heart is a socialist one. I am fed up with the lies and spin. Change must come and quickly. This Government is simply awful. The worst I have ever seen. I cannot in my heart of hearts ever vote for such a group. The worst offender is Ed Balls who simply is not up to the job. His ideas are barmy. We need excellence, not social mobility but engineering things. Its truly bad and I wish they would go tomorrow. I think the country [bar the hard core 26%] would breath a collective sigh of relief.
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Labour wanted us to see this as a story about judgement or lack of it, and strangely, at the end of it all, that's what it has become.
With no new evidence of dastardly dealings already fairly well investigated by the police et al, Labour launch an attack against a man who when faced with unacceptable practices that occurred on his watch, he accepted full responsibility, apologised and then resigned.
This is the same Labour party that when embarrassed by Smeargate, something equally shocking and despicable, allowed the guilty party to resign rather than firing him, whilst the top man accepted full responsibility for the actions on his watch and then did absolutely nothing about it. Indeed he is still there encouraging the discredited and the unbelievable from his own party to launch attacks from their glass houses on someone who has already paid the price for his error.
Having failed to land a new punch on Coulson, indeed taking a counter punch from Coulson who it now turns out is a victim himself of the whole affair, they have not only failed in their real objective of showing Cameron to have poor judgement, they have promoted his sense of fair play in giving a second chance to someone who has paid for his errors and enhanced his integrity for sticking by that decision in the face of unsubstantiated media slur.
If there has been poor judgement in this case, it is surely Labour's for getting involved with such a tawdry and badly prepared case and drawing comparisons on themselves between how responsible people act when faced with difficulty and how they acted over Smeargate.
The sad thing is that this will not even cause a ripple in pubic opinion for Labour because everybody expects them to be feckless hypocrites already.
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This whole thing has been such a damp squib. There were relatively few phones hacked. The Guardian kept adding more names because these people had been phoned by the few people who's phones were hacked.
I'm not saying it was right to do this or that it shouldn't be made public, but this all happened years ago. People have been convicted and have/are serving their time in prison so how's it news?
This seems to be something dreamed up by Labour spin doctors or Labour supporters within The Guardian to put the Tories and a historically Tory paper at the end of a couple of bad news cycles.
Unfortunately for this government and it's supporters you can always rely on the government to stuff something up again. First it was Brown with his 0% rise (and his insistence in calling it a rise). Then his Labour spending versus Tory cuts (slapped down on this one by Mervyn King, head of the Bank of England) and then it's helicopters. Gordon insisting there are enough even when his generals and colleagues say he's talking nonsense. So what does he do then, he makes his colleague 'clarify' an earlier statement by talking garbage instead of the sense he had originally.
Gordon seems to think that he's the Pope, not the son of a Presbyterian minister. Gordon just to remind you, you don't have Papal infallibility.
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SO THE ROBINSON MONOLOGUE CONTINUES WITH SELECTIVE POLITICAL AMNESIA
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253. At 3:58pm on 22 Jul 2009, Its_an_Outrage wrote:
"NR doesn't read the comments on his blog (and I don't suppose anyone else from the BBC does either, other than a moderator). Apparently he was put off by all the 'Zanuliebour' football-chant drivel from the Tory trolls who infest this blog and considered that there wasn't much point."
=
Presume he was also put off by the "toffs" and "poshboys" drivel as well.
Name-calling is unnecessary but NR should grow a thicker skin. He sets himself up... if he writes 5 blogs on the Coulson story while giving the McBride scandal a cursory mention, then what does he expect from the Tory faithful? Bouquets?
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Slightly off message but I am new to this having hitherto been a spectator rather than a contributor. Re the post asking whether NR will still be as biased to Labour on his blog if the Conservatives win the election, I'm sure that in a Daily Politics show a few weeks ago Andrew Neil was wishing him well in his new job to be - something about a Business Editor I think - anyone know anything?
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oldreactionary wrote:
You paint a poor picture of Tom Watson. I thought that he looked good for a 59 year old on Sunday - although he was showing his age after the fourth play off hole!
Hi oldreactionary,
yes, perhaps I was being a little harsh on him - he seems to have lost a lot of weight since escaping the bunker!
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258. At 4:49pm on 22 Jul 2009, TheBlameGame wrote:
253. At 3:58pm on 22 Jul 2009, Its_an_Outrage wrote:
"NR doesn't read the comments on his blog (and I don't suppose anyone else from the BBC does either, other than a moderator). Apparently he was put off by all the 'Zanuliebour' football-chant drivel from the Tory trolls who infest this blog and considered that there wasn't much point."
=
Presume he was also put off by the "toffs" and "poshboys" drivel as well.
Name-calling is unnecessary but NR should grow a thicker skin. He sets himself up... if he writes 5 blogs on the Coulson story while giving the McBride scandal a cursory mention, then what does he expect from the Tory faithful? Bouquets?
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????????
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251. At 3:29pm on 22 Jul 2009, Ian_the_chopper wrote:
Nothing from Mike Naylor recently. Perhaps like our MP's he has broken up for the summer?
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I old Mike Naylor has probably had one too many Babychams in Labour HQ
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251. At 3:29pm on 22 Jul 2009, Ian_the_chopper wrote:
Nothing from Mike Naylor recently. Perhaps like our MP's he has broken up for the summer?
I agree with Mr Curzon in 246 there are much more important political issues to be discussed.
How about Lord Foulkes slur on the Head of the armed forces in the Lords yesterday?...
===
You mean George Foulkes, Labour's defence spokesman between 1992 and 1993, who was forced to resign after he admitted assault and being drunk and disorderly following a reception hosted by the Scotch Whisky Association, and who was subsequently fined GBP1,050?
He's not fit to lick the boots of General Sir Richard Dannatt GCB, CBE, MC.
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Sagamix it seems that after I retired to bed last night you have questioned my right to post an economic quote on this blog. You state that this space is for comment re the comings and goings in the Westminster village. I respectfully submit that the fact that the Government have deliberately delayed the publication of embarrassing figures to a time when there can be no Parliamentary debate is very much a topic for discussion here. Although it would seem that Mr Robinson does not agree.
In any event, as you well know, I was responding to a question posed by newthink.
By the way newthink, I agree that a more creative approach to tax is required. We already have the notional linking of the tax on cigarettes to health and petrol to roads. However I would like to see some more transparency on this issue as there is the suspicion that the Government are using these taxes as an excuse to squeeze more out of us for general purpose and in an effort to not renege on their promise to raise income tax. Whoops, they just did! We already tax alcohol and I would also like to see the revenue raised from this ring-fenced for health. It needs further thought, but I would also look to part fund the NHS by a new tax on unhealthy food.
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Just what I thought the outcome would be, if it had been about Labour the press/media would never have let it drop. This outcome either makes Coulson a liar or at least an totally ineffective editor of a newspaper (if the NOTW can be classed as such) if he didn't know what was going on, my thoughts are the latter seems most unlikely. It does however go to strengthen my gut feeling that the "forth estate" really stinks and such newspapers that are always accusing the government of lies and underhanded trickery are already there themselves.
Strange thing though, can't really see why some Nu Tories subscribing to this blog think Nick is biased against Dave, I think he comes across as one of his acolytes and if Coulson had got the push could have been snapped up by the Nu Compassionate Tories!
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Old reactionary and sagamix
My effort last night was to try to get a sensible debate about sensible issues rather than having a trite and meaningless exchange about a non-story.
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To: angrypolinerd Unfortunately or fortunately as may be the case, I don't think that Nick Robinson is changing jobs. At the start of the programme you refer to Anita Anand introduced Nick as the Business Editor followed by laughter all round. Sorry to disappoint.
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a couple of points worth making about the vexed question of "have we got enough helicopters?" ...
1. I don't know, and I don't think anyone else really does either
2. when a group of people see themselves to be in a good negotiating position ... like the Military, right now ... they tend to ask for what they WANT not just what they NEED - I wonder if that is what's happening, to some extent?
3. in a strange way, this issue shows the best of Brown - would be so easy (wouldn't it?) to get a cheap populist thrill by standing up and announcing a whole heap of new Hellies etc for Our Boys ... that's certainly what Catch would do ... but no, he stands firm - just as he did (well, until Lummers got involved) a few weeks ago ... can you remember? ... when the Ghurka thing had everyone all angry andy and cursing and slamming their pint pots down on the table
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251. At 3:29pm on 22 Jul 2009, Ian_the_chopper wrote:
Nothing from Mike Naylor recently. Perhaps like our MP's he has broken up for the summer?
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Or one too many Babychams at Labout HQ
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262. At 6:03pm on 22 Jul 2009, ghostworld
This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain
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Blimey !
Can't even mention Babycham on here
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Saga 268
Whoaaaa sorry can't let you get away with that.
Too many involved people be they military or not are stating that there are not enough helicopters to carry out the tasks.
If there were enough why the frenzy over the last week or so to beg borrow or steal helicopters (or even try to get the 8 Chinnocks that have been bought but can't be used for 8 years off the ground).
If that's the best of Gordy, I shudder to think what you would consider to be the worst of him.
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old reactionary @ 264
Sagamix it seems that after I retired to bed last night you have questioned my right to post an economic quote on this blog
yes, I deliberately waited until I saw you go upstairs before doing that - devious or what! - no but seriously, I didn't "question your right" to post an economics comment, of course I didn't - any case, it's futile in my experience to try and stop Old Reactionaries saying exactly what they want to say - no, my point was (and still is, in fact) that Nick's blog has a Westminster Village type flavour, and so you shouldn't be too disappointed that you don't get to see too much heavy duty stuff on the National Debt, stuff like that
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I do not trust any of them both editors just seemed to be coming out with a well rehearsed story of events and conveniently could not remember stories they had put on the front of the paper as exclusive.
But such stories would of gone to a editorial meeting to make front page and all editors would of had there say on the story and proof of the information would of been shown to them for them to put it on the front page
On MP's expenses the Tories managed to get enough amendments on to it to make it less than effective as MP's still have control of who decides there pay and punishment
Why could MP's not just settle for the same laws on fraud for MP's or is it that they are above the rest of us
A nice white wash that still do's not give the electorate an control over the MP's once they have been elected
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272 Saga
Sorry, has the national debt nothing to do with politics?
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268 sagamix
"in a strange way, this issue shows the best of Brown - would be so easy (wouldn't it?) to get a cheap populist thrill by standing up and announcing a whole heap of new Hellies etc for Our Boys ... that's certainly what Catch would do ... but no, he stands firm - just as he did (well, until Lummers got involved) a few weeks ago ... can you remember? ... when the Ghurka thing had everyone all angry andy and cursing and slamming their pint pots down on the table"
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The best of Brown ??? You mean his ability to not to give "a cheap populist thrill" and "standing firm"??? What is he actually standing firm on ??? They are sending more helicopters as quickly as possible, and it is his governments decisions eg chinook procurement which have left us in this position. The problem is he is denying troops the equipment they need now as a result of bad decisions he made some time ago, is something that Brown will have to live with despite his statement to the contrary. Standing firm or whatever won't change the situation now. The damage was done a long time ago.
I don't think any troops in Afghanistan will be saying "thank heavens that Gordy is not chasing cheap populist thrills" - I have a step-son in the armed forces and I find it offensive every time this gutless coward appears on TV to talk about the armed forces after his track record. And your comments are little better. Would Harriet find it in herself to regard the situation as "shocking" ??
If this is the best of Brown then the sooner he goes the better, but most of us know that already.
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Saga
You are right in one respect I do not know either whether more helicopters are necessary to do the job. I've never been in the military and certainly would not wish to be shot at, which makes me something of a hypocrite I guess, as I have supported our reasons for being in Afghanistan in the past. I do believe however, that if you are going to war, you give yourself the best possible chance of winning with the least possible loss of life or injury to your side. Ideally as a secondary aim you also try to minimise casualties on the other side as well!
Despite my lack of military experience it does seem logical to me that if when you move troops around you fall prey to IEDs, a helicopter seems sensible. Also if you have to patrol on the ground, a vehicle designed to disperse an explosion seems like a good idea. If the top brass are asking for these then they should get them whatever the cost.
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Sagamix
Just read your 272. Sorry I was not trying to infer that you were chicken for waiting until I left the blog. I still contend that the delay in publishing figures was a political point though.
You are right, I will continue to say what I like, subject to the benevolence of the moderators. I love the anonymity that the blog provides as I can occasionally say something stupid or naive without feeling too embarrassed.
Despite what it may seem I also enjoy reading comments, that are well argued, that may differ from my own views. Who knows you may even convert me to a fan of your Harriet. Are you willing to share?
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268 sagamix
I agree with you- Often the best thing to do is one of the least popular things to do.
That's the reason I've decided never to vote for Cameron- He just seems too keen to Jump on bandwagons such as the Helicopter and Gurkha issues.
Popular Politicians aren't always good politicians.
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DIRE DIRE POLITICAL BIAS!!
BTW I DONT VOTE TORY!
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273 york1900 and other earlier posters too.
Short education on how the tabloids work.
Scandalous stories sell newspapers. So do titilating ones about celebrities. There certainly is a necessary process in making sure that stories have some degree of accuracy. The motivation for this is avoiding getting the edition injuncted - expensive and no product to sell. Having to pay out to a damaged party is always worth avoiding too, but the profit from a single edition usually exceeds the pay out. Avoiding having to apologise is also worthwhile: apologies give the impression that the newspaper contains fiction, which, of course, is bad for sales.
In the case of stories about the Royal Family, these considerations apply, of course, but less so, because the Royals are less inclined to sue. Accordingly, the editorial control over these stories is somewhat less. Quite simply, the truth-bar is set a lot lower. In truth, most royal stories are just made up. The editor's judgement is more likely to be applied to whether a given story is worth running with - will it sell enough copies? would some other story be better? if we don't run with another story we are cooking up, will we be scooped? - than whether it is really true. And the question of just how a royal story was cooked up is hardly likely to make it onto the agenda at all.
Tabloid journalism is indeed a dirty business. But the notion that Coulson had no idea how a given story was knocked up is one that is highly credible. Quite simply, story construction was quite a way below his pay-grade. I imagine the biggest surprise of all to him was finding out, as a result of the criminal proceedings against the journalist, that there was indeed some factual evidence collected to support the story!
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267 Joloblog
Many thanks for the explanation, I obviously missed Anita's introduction. I had been hoping we might get a Political Editor who is more even-handed. when Nick was with ITV I thought his political commentary was much more balanced.
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General-Fondue, Sagamix
"I agree with you- Often the best thing to do is one of the least popular things to do."
"Popular Politicians aren't always good politicians."
===========================================
An interesting comment. Below are some fact relating to the procurement fiasco involving the eight Mk3 Chinooks from the National Audit Office website. This is the factual reality of what you bizarrely describe as "the best thing to do". These were the governments decisons, and no one elses - you can't spin this one onto David Cameron. Have a read of them.
You speak of Gordon Brown not taking populist decisios like it was some concious effort. They simply made hopelessly ill thought out decisions! That's what makes people angry, compounded by his inability to admit it. He selective use of quotes on this to attempt to prove his case cannot hide the facts. And as a politician, Gordon Brown is neither popular nor good.
Some key points of the NAO report on what you describe as "the best thing to do are below." Don't take my word for it, read the full report online for yourself, and get some real factual basis to assess government decision making on this issue.
According to the National Audit Office report on the eight Chinook Mk3 special operations helicopters which have never been used in the eight years since their delivery, the following is reported :
"Those eight Chinook Mk3 helicopters cost some £259 million and the Department took delivery of them from Boeing in December 2001. Although Boeing met its contractual obligations, the avionics software fell short of United Kingdom military airworthiness standards and the helicopters have not flown on operations."
"In 2004, the Committee of Public Accounts described the original procurement of the Chinook Mk3 Helicopter as one of the worst examples of equipment procurement that it had seen.
"
A decision was eventually made to revert the chinooks to the basic design variant - at a price.
"The total costs associated with the Chinook Mk3 helicopters from their initial procurement through to completion of the Reversion project will be some £422 million"
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268. sagamix
What, GB stands firm while the troops are hamstrung by a lack of mobility? Nice.
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261. At 6:01pm on 22 Jul 2009, ghostworld
I see that your digit got stuck on the ? key.
Maybe I wasn't that coherent. I'll try again:
Outrage appeared to be inferring that the "football-chant drivel" (Zanuliebour, etc.) comes only from the "Tory trolls who infest this blog". I was pointing out that "trolls" come in all shades. There's been plenty of "chanting" aimed at the posh boy, Bullingdon Club Tories.
I'm hoping Nick was put out by the general tone, not just by anti-'Zanuliebour' comments, otherwise that would point to a bias.
If Nick's blogs were more erudite and less humdrum, his pique would be more understandable.
My post @203 refers to but one of the reasons why Tories may have an issue with Nick.
Comments on political blogs in the mainstream media will always include political tribalism, they'd be boring without it.
Which is why a thick skin is an asset for the writer.
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278. General_Fondue
General, you've clearly never served in the military. Or if you have it was pre-helicopters.
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The Head of the Armed Forces has said, as openly as a military commander can, that more helicopters are needed in Afghanistan. The government's response is to spin against him and force Foreign Office minister Lord Malloch-Brown to retract a very clear statement that makes the government look at best incompetent or at worst like thay are not being honest.
..and what is Mr Robinson's response while soldiers are dying? To write a blog about gutter journalism tittle tattle and unethical techniques.
What is more shocking? Journalists bugging phones or our politicians not giving the soldiers they send to the battlefield the kit they need?
The BBC must provide balanced coverage, but when one side is spinning (be it about a cut not being a cut or the need for helicopters), it is simply not possible or necessary to be balanced. Tell it like it is!
Where/how does one formally complain about bias and inappropriate reporting on the BBC?
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On reflection, my comment about the helicopters "bandwagon" was wrong.
I don't know enough about the subject to make an informed decision, and all I can say is that I hope our MPs know more than I do.
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282. StrictlyPickled
Unbelievable. Incompetence on a grand scale.
But it's lost on your target audience.
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286. General_Fondue wrote:
On reflection, my comment about the helicopters "bandwagon" was wrong.
I don't know enough about the subject to make an informed decision, and all I can say is that I hope our MPs know more than I do.
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Credit to you, General. I retract my comment @284.
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new think @ 274
Sorry, has the national debt nothing to do with politics?
of course, did I say it didn't? - first there's Old R saying I'm saying that he shouldn't post on serious economic issues (when I didn't) and now here's you saying that I'm saying the ND has nothing to do with politics (when I just didn't) - everything I post is getting all twisted around!
fondue @ 278
I agree with you
careful General, you'll get a bad rep doing stuff like that! - seriously though, I appreciate it ... especially from an obvious military man
strictly @ 275
to me, the main issue is we shouldn't be in Afghanistan or Iraq but I blame Blair, rather than Brown, for that - you may be right about the lack of equipment, but I'm a bit sceptical myself - the military (like most other vested interests) always want more, don't they?
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Surely any spin doctor worth his salt would wriggle out of this one - as Coulson has effortlessly managed to do.
PS. I note that the polls show that a Tory 'machine' candidate is likely to win in Norwich. Are the English electorate so ignorant of politics that they are going to perpetuate the same old, same old. Seems that way, which is quite depressing really. No wonder 'Dave' and his privileged chums are looking so smug these days - they feel its almost in the bag. Which is really no political progess at all for the English.
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the General @ 286
okay fine, you're taking yourself off the helicopter case BUT your more "general" (sorry!) point about Catch Cameron and bandwagons remains a highly perceptive one ...
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Gordon Brown as Chancellor, refused the release of funds that would have provided the helicopters that the military had requested.
Without these helicopters, troops have had to move on the ground in Helmand, which has caused some of them to be killed and/or seriously wounded.
Therefore, one does wonder quite how Gordon Brown can sleep at night knowing that he is more-or-less directly responsible for this situation.
It is fine to have political beliefs that says 'money spent on the military is money wasted when we have higher spending priorities such as education, health and social services provisions' but sooner or later, when you are the Minister actually making those decisions, I wonder, do they really think through the consequences?
That chicken really has come home to roost ... in coffins.
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The military may or may not need more helicopters. If they do need more I hope they get them. It may be as has been said before asking for much more than they are likely to get so they can negotiate down to what they actually need.
With former Murdoch tabloid editor Coulson as communications director . I wonder if this isn't just an 'Our boys in Afghanistan' line the Conservatives are taking. It sells papers for Murdoch. I'm sorry but their style comes across that way to me. Helicopters aren't as safe as people are trying to make out. They may be needed for operations but they do not save soldiers from harm. Less likely to be killed by roadside bombs but more likely to be killed in large numbers by a missile or gun, pilot error or mechanical failure. I want to here more from the people who know about this rather than Dave and his Tabloid spin doctor It would be a little bit sick if anyone tried to make political capital out of this issue.
The problem is more likely that the military used to all its technological toys doesn't know how to fight this kind of guerilla warfare. I remember this being reported back when it started. How many helicopters did the soviets have when fighting the Mujaheddin . Plenty I'd guess. They still lost.
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dhwilkinson @ 293
As it happens, even though I stopped working with the military in 1992, I did work on two or three of the helicopter types currently in use with the UK Armed Forces.
I am not going to comment on them as such as I signed the Official Secrets Act but I would point out that the Soviets theoretical helicopter advantage in Afghanistan was totally negated because the Americans supplied Stinger ground-to-air missiles to the 'insurgents', who included one Usama bin Laden.
As far as I know, the Taleban do not (yet) have a supply of these ground-to-air missiles and so are unable to 'complete'.
BTW, I read that the kill ratio is roughly 100-1, that is, 100 Taleban dying to every 1 UK forces. Which might sound superficially OK but probably translates into a lot of vengeful families back in Afghanistan.
Your political point about the Tories/Murdoch press cynically latching onto this as a means of beating up Brown, well, that is the sort of game these politicians all play, isn't it.
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I'm a bit worried about Nick - doesn't even seem to appear on the TV news these days - what's going on? - I can't help but wonder if perhaps he hasn't got into hot water with the Big Bosses for not blogging quite as often as he could have done ... should have done ... about the Tories being unfit for office - do hope not
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280. At 8:24pm on 22 Jul 2009, jrperry
You seem to have the idea that there is no control in press rooms and no one takes responsibility for signing the expenses claims
I find it very very strange that no one questions what the claim is for
As if this is the case a reporter could make a fortune on expenses
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The country is bankrupt and this non-story is worthy of almost 300 comments?
We get what we deserve.
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york1900 296
Not sure what you are on about. My post was nothing to do with journalists' expenses. Perhaps you might like to reread my earlier post, check your own and then explain?
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Well, well. So the Treasury's own figures show that already there are plans to cut spending in several departments for the 2010/11 period.
Even Lord Mandelson's Department for All Sorts will see 20+percent cuts.
I seem to recall Brown saying that talk about potential sweeping cuts in some departments being examined by civil servants were simply nonsense. And, of course, he "Always tells the truth"...
He should be grateful that his botched "Parliamentary Reform" Bill was changed by the MPs. They kicked out a clause saying that MPs would no longer be covered by Parliamentary Privilege, so whatever they said in the House could be used in a court. So when Brown said that "nobody will suffer" as the 10p tax band was withdrawn, his words could have been used in a class action by a million people claiming fraudulent misrepresentation...
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297 GeoffK1874 wrote:
The country is bankrupt and this non-story is worthy of almost 300 comments?
We get what we deserve
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I agree its a non story, but most of the posts are about other topics or from Mike_Naylor. I don't think everyone is as excited about the Andy Coulsons non-story as Nick or the statistic of 300 posts would suggest.
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The Times reports... "Furious council leaders have demanded an urgent meeting with ministers after being told that their plans are in jeopardy because there is no new money to pay for the Prime Ministers policy, which was announced ten days ago.
Mr Brown said that £1.5billion would be found across Whitehall to fund up to 20,000 new homes for those on low incomes and on council house waiting lists. The policy was at heart of his proposed legislative programme before next years election."
So the money being found is going to come from existing promises to Local Governments (with a special focus on the South), who planned to use that money for other on-going rennovation or new-build projects.
This is madness. For the sake of backing up "political initiatives" and grandstanding, local governments' existing plans will be screwed up. Joined up thinking?
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The only reason there are 300 posts on this non-story blog is because this is from Tuesday lunchtime and despite everything that has gone on since no new blog has been posted.
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Much ado about ...errrrr... nothing.
Let's get on with the real issues, now.
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