Becoming the story
The police showed a list of names of targets for phone hacking to one of those whose voicemails were illegally hacked into by the News of the World. This happened in the lead-up to the jailing of the paper's royal editor and the private investigator he used. The individual, who I've spoken to, recognised the names of many familiar public figures and the stories that had appeared in the paper about them.
This revelation may add to the pressure for a further investigation into how widespread phone hacking was, and who knew about it. Already the Chairman of the Commons Media Committee, John Whittingdale, has said he may re-open his inquiry into the affair.
So, is David Cameron right to be "relaxed" about the implications for his Director of Communications, Andy Coulson?
Certainly, he must have known the risk when he hired Coulson just months after he had been forced to resign as the editor of the News of the World. At the time Coulson said he knew nothing about what had happened, although as editor he'd taken full responsibility for it. The Guardian is clear this morning that it has no evidence to the contrary.
The Tories' first reaction to the Guardian story was that it only contained one new revelation - that the News of the World had reached a huge out-of-court settlement with Gordon Taylor, the leader of the footballers union, one of those whose phones it had hacked into. As this deal was reached after Coulson resigned they argued that this was a story not about politics but the media.
Their hope was that many papers would steer clear of this story since their own journalists are alleged to have indulged in blagging - paying to obtain private data under false pretences - if not hacking.
They argue that the interventions of John Prescott, Charles Clarke and Alastair Campbell should be seen simply as a politically motivated campaign to damage David Cameron and one of his key advisers.
This morning the Tory leader has sought to distinguish between what Coulson did in the past at the News of the World and what he does now for him by declaring:
"I believe in giving people a second chance. As director of communications for the Conservatives, he does an excellent job in a proper, upright way at all times."
The problem he faces is that new questions are now being opened about the past.
It is now clear that phone hacking at the News of the World was much more widespread than previously thought; that it targeted senior ministers not just celebrities and that, if the Guardian is correct, at least one of the paper's executives knew about it. This is leading to calls - not just from Labour politicians - for Andy Coulson to answer questions about what he knew and to questions about whether he should be at David Cameron's side.
That is why I am sure that David Cameron is anything but "relaxed", as was claimed last night.
Coulson has already broken rule one for any spin doctor - "Never become the story". He's good enough at his job to know that this story will soon become one about David Cameron's judgement.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~53~RS~)
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Perhaps you should have a look at Guido's blog, Nick. There are labour dirty tricks at play here. I think that they may end up regretting having stirred up a hornet's nest. News International will surely know where a lot of bodies are buried.
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Oh phooey. Labour has had the nastiest spin machine ever - Campbell, McBride, Draper et al.
I think Coulson is telling the truth in that he was not complicit and new nothing of these shannigans.
The way the public feel about Labour politicians at present I would think any snooping, albeit illegal, is fair sport.
Labour is so very very afraid of DC and the Conservatives they would jump on any chance to smear them.
Won't work.
Who cares? Most of us don't, actually.
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This whole story just smells of Labour desperation - they are trying to whip this up into a media circus to smear David Cameron.
Has Damian McBride really left, or are Ed Balls, Tom Watson, Derek Draper and Charlie Whelan still at work trying to discredit people who would seek to replace the weird lunatic at Number 10?
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Ah Nick - at LAST u can TRY and slate the Tories - who cares - how about U investigating and reporting on Mandelson and Deripaska - Balls -Cooper expenses - Brown and HIS expenses - but hey anything that MIGHT annoy the next Govt is right up your street - did Campbell never do anything wrong???? - any sane person can see this for what it is - a very crude attempt by LIEBOUR to tarnish Tories - where is McBride by the way - why no expose of him???? - oh Guido will do that.
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I always thought that hiring Coulson was a bad decision by David Cameron. Turns out I was right.
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How much did/does Rupert Murdoch know about this?
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Well Nick you're big enough now to know that with this blog entry, *you* are effectively questioning Cameron's judgement.
Shame you had no such thoughts towards Gordon Brown's judgement over Damien McBridge and Red Rag eh?
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Did Mr Coulson testify under oath at the trial? If not, why not? It seems to be a great oversight by the Prosecution if Mr Coulson was not cross-examined about what he knew.
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Until Andy Coulson is caught red-handed, like the way Labour's Smear Campaign Unit was, then this is a non story. Any number of bitter ex-Labour ministers looking for something to beat the tories with does not make the man is guilty of anything.
If Andy Coulson is proved to have lied about this then I would expect his sacking and rightly so.
Whatever happened to innocent until proved guilty? Oh that's right, Labour have taken away most of our freedoms.
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Might have guessed we wouldn't have a post about politics - just more tittle tattle about the Westminster village.
It seemed perverse for Cameron to take on board a former News of the World editor. Coulson said he knew nothing about the illegal activities, but resigned because he took responsibility. (The Guardian says nothing to the contrary...)
Maybe Cameron thought it would be a good idea if politicians/Ministers, too, would resign while taking responsibility for things that went wrong in their departments. When did that last happen?
It makes no difference whether Coulson goes or stays. The UK is in a state of chaos.
Treasury proposals to control financial institutions divide the opinions of the experts.
The armed forces do not get all the equipment they need. ("We must expect more sacrifices" says the Minister. That's easy to say, when it's someone else's life at stake.)
Brown's rediculous effort to rush through a Bill to sort out the HoC situation (even before the report HE commissioned to examine the matter properly won't report for months) looks like a dog's dinner.
Compare and contrast the impact of Cameron's "judgement" on selecting a Communications advisor with Brown's "judgement" that poor people should be stuffed (10p tax...) because he can't be seen to change his mind.
No wonder the country's in such a mess, when trivia beats serious issues in the political editor's mind.
I expected more from you, Nick.
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Nick, anyone who read your blog for news would believe that the Labour party has no problems and that the Tories were on the ropes with the tiny scraps of bad news you find and elevate to headlines.
So a guy used to work for a company that has now behaved unethically - should he really be fired?
Nick, you work for an organisation best described as the propaganda wing of the Labour party - have you seen your headlines in the last month?
I note that the honourable members with the murkiest pasts are shouting the loudest - I hope they blow this can of worms wide open and take the consequences!!
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A man is innocent until proven innocent or his CV ultimately proves to be flawed. Cameron recruited a person in good faith and based on all he could prove 100%. If this person is now found guilty based on new evidence he gets fired. That's the limit of the Tories responsibility. Labour can try to make of this suddenly emerging revelation what they can. It's so transparent. It might have been more plausible if it wasn't Prescott's phone that was top of the list. What for - to find out how many takeaways he ordered every day?
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Cameron's judgment may be wrong on this one but by any stretch of the imagination if this is comparable to Brown - with McBride, Gurkhas, 10p tax, economic policy, climate policy, in fact most things he is completely the other end of the scale.
Cameron has worked very effectively to change the tories and will be our next PM when Brown is forced out. Tragically he will inherit a disgusting mess. The former life of his advisor should not detract from the message the man is trying to offer.
Now we know you take your newsfeed from various sources so why not ask the government ministers who are implicated here how they now feel about policy to tap all of our lines?
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Nick, you said;
Coulson has already broken rule one for any spin doctor - "Never become the story".
Unlike Campbell, McBride and others Coulson didn't say anything to become the story. In fact he's said remarkably little for a 'spin doctor'.
There has been a section of the press doing some pretty despicable things for the best part of 100 years. Makes the National Enquirer look tame at times. Probably the most that Coulson can be accused of is naivety, isn't it? And he fell on his sword for that!
Commonsense was never the attribute of the media.
As commented elsewhere Guido has some valid points.
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Labour is so very very afraid of DC and the Conservatives they would jump on any chance to smear them.
Won't work.
Who cares? Most of us don't, actually.
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Patricia,
Your so biased, and one sided, I doubt anyone really cares what you think - David Cameron could announce he's going to crash the earth into the sun as tory policy for 2010, and you'd still refuse to vote labour.
Labour party are accused of attempting to leak info the media - Labour smear!
Tory communication minister potentially involved in the same thing - Labour smear for commenting on it!
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"ny sane person can see this for what it is - a very crude attempt by LIEBOUR to tarnish Tories - where is McBride by the way - why no expose of him???? - oh Guido will do that"
Any sane person, who wants their comments to be taken seriously, does not call the government "liebour".
The point here is - the tory party are all for leaks, smears, spin, as long as Gordon Brown and J Smith is the target.
The tory party are happy to criticise Gordon Brown for doing the leaking, and playing tricks.
As soon as the most obvious point ever is revealed in the public - the tory party are probably responsible for a few dirty tricks of their own, alledgedly - they start rattling on!
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I do not think this has got anything to do with Labour being afraid of Cameron. He will expose himself as a shallow lightweight political operator,as he did in his leadership live debate with Davies.
Boris got it right on the radio this morning.It is about journalists having the judgement to decide when this sort of practice provides a story vital to the national interest, or if it is an abuse of the position they hold in our democracy.
The more they abuse this position then it will lead to tighter controls on them, to the detriment of democracy as a whole.
Do they have the self control to exercise those judgements wisely? I fear not.
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Seriously - if a disgraced ex-editor, of the News of the World, is your communications officer - is this really that surprising.
Cameron's whole campaign has been built on leaks
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What a handful of people did to a few hundred people in the name of public interests and circulation are done by few thousands people to 60 million people in the name of security.
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Amazing. Here is a story about the NotW breaking the law by hacking into people's mobile phones, and the first responses on here are to blame the Labour Party. I don't know whether the report that Nick no longer reads the comments on his own blog because they tend to be so nonsensical, but on the basis of this evidence I wouldn't blame him if it was.
On the actual story, IF the allegations are true it is surely inconceivable that the editor of the paper could not have known about what was going on? As the two former editors said on Newsnight last night, the first question any editor always asks about any story is "where did you get the information" - that has to be asked so that a view can be taken about its accuracy.
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The theory that an editor in chief of a trashy tabloid newspaper, knew nothing about this sort of culture of phone-hacking, leaks, and spin is ridiculous.
And for the leader of the opposition, to hire a disgraced hack like this to be his spin doctor, is testament to how he has run his campaign thus far
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I find it hard to believe people will get very excited about journalists hacking celebs' phones. Don't most people (if it's even crossed their minds, which I doubt) expect this to be going on anyay?
A much moe interesting angle is why hadn't GCHQ spotted this a long time ago, tipped off the police and prosecutions brought? I suspect GCHQ knew. I suspect the police knew. I suspect many a political hack knew. I suspect many politicans knew and some have decided now is a good time to ramp the story up to embarrass the Tories. I'm off to read Guido now, to see if that is what's being said over there...
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At last! A stick with which you can beat the Tories, Nick! It must come as a welcome release not to have to try to put the government's bad news days in a good light!
This is a none-story, just like many of the other anti-Tory stories that have had the pro-Labour media in a frenzy!
IF Andy Coulson did anything wrong, it wasn't while working for Cameron. He hasn't tried to dream up a smear campaign against the Government, or invent new initiatives that will never work etc. etc. You say that no evidence has been uncovered that he was involved in the NoW phone tapping, but he he did the honorable thing by resigning because, as Editor, the buck stopped with him.
Pity Gordon Brown won't follow his example!
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Nick Says,
So, is David Cameron right to be "relaxed" about the implications for his Director of Communications, Andy Coulson?
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No hes not right to be relaxed about the whole thing & this only goes to show that Cameron is becoming as arrogant as Brown & hes not even PM yet.
Part of the Tory strategy has been to criticise the government for being too lenient to their supporters when they have been shown to have done wrong.
The fact that Cameron employed the man in the first place, knowing the risks, shows a flawed lack of judgement.
If Cameron is half the man he recons he is, he would sack Coulson & carry out damage limitations because the last thing the UK public want to see is more sleaze than we already have.
Oh Dave, so close to number 10 & youre already are dropping the banana skins.
As Homer simpson would say, DOH.
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Well Nick you're big enough now to know that with this blog entry, *you* are effectively questioning Cameron's judgement.
Shame you had no such thoughts towards Gordon Brown's judgement over Damien McBridge and Red Rag eh?
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I think you will find that the McBride move, and hiring was slated in the press for weeks. Including this blogger.
The issue is that tory voters don't appreciate Cameron spin doctors getting the same treatment.
It's very much a case of "hush, don't talk about it", it seems
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I wonder how many tory MPs were targeted.........
I'd wager none
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Is 'relaxed' an arrogant toff euphemism for he has my support until things get worse?
This is just another sign that we're out of the frying pan and into the fire at the next election.... there's very little difference between New Labour and the ModCons.
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Oh this is really turning into a classic Labour Smear operation. Ben Bradshaw reckons David Cameron has questions to answer? Eh? I didn't realise Mr Cameron worked for the NOTW. Labour are doing their best to stir up innuendo to distract from their myriad troubles.
How desperate.
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Nick,
The thing with cover-ups is who knew and who did not?
Are you seriously suggesting that the police, CPS knew but the Deputy Prime Minister did not? Did MI5 know? Did Tony Blair know but kept it from Prescott?
More questions are raised than answered.
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Non-story in a quiet period for political news
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On the Starship (free) Enterprise - Shields up - the Guardasians have fired a salvo of photon torpedoes.....
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I don't remember any newlabour apologists complaining when Rupert Murdoch instructed his readers to vote new labour at the last three general elections.
All a bit different right now isn't it?
It's a shame it has come to this but we are in the death throes of a fiscally and politically incontinent newlabour administration; dishing insults and cash out like there was no tomorrow.
Call an election
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A few things have become much clearer this morning. It is now blindingly obvious that the press complaints commission is a joke. There is no body that regulates the media and without this the tabloids at least are running wild. Not in the name of openness or justice but simply for the sake of salacious gossip. The media must be properly regulated. It is ludicrous to think they can self-regulate, any more than the banks or Westminster.
And just one week after David Cameron threatened to remove Ofcom's powers should he become next Prime Minister after they dared speak out against Sky tv's monopoly his judgement is again being called into question. Cameron knows he will need News International working overtime to become next Prime Minister. Personally I could never vote for a man who would employ someone like Andy Coulson.
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Damien McBrides private e-mails appear in Sunday Newspaper. He claims they were hacked.
Tory MP accused of trying to solicit home-office information out of civil servant.
Jacqui Smiths expenses appear in Sunday Newspaper
All MP expenses appear in Sunday newspaper.
Guardian alledge NOTW paid off people they had allegedly hacked.
1: Newspapers, and there need for exclusives, are at the heart of it.
2: Hiring the ex editor in chief, of the News of the World a paper completely built on leaks and exposes as your communications officer, is probably telling the general public how you plan to run your campaign.
Leaks, smears, and spin
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Lots of opportunists here trying to make this about Labour. I don't expect any different on this blog, but you're all missing the point (as are those trying to use it to attack the integrity of the Tories).
Nick Davies, the journalist who has been investigating all this has already done us all a huge favour by providing an insight into the underhand, immoral and illegal methods of Fleet Street in his book 'Flat Earth News'. Those who thought the McBride/Red Rag scandal was as bad as it got should try reading that.
My conclusion is that - EVEN with the MP's expenses scandal - journalists are frequently far far more worthy of our contempt than politicians. The fact that politicians are publicly funded doesn't change that.
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"This whole story just smells of Labour desperation - they are trying to whip this up into a media circus to smear David Cameron."
McBride's e-mails being leaked to the press?
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While this could reflect badly on Cameron's judgement at the moment I fail to understand where the story is.
There currently doesn't appear to be any proof that Coulson even knew about any wrong doing and he only resigned because he was the editor of the paper and those implicated worked for him.
I very much doubt that a MP or Minister would resign if someone on their staff/department did something unethical/illegal.
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"So a guy used to work for a company that has now behaved unethically - should he really be fired?
Nick, you work for an organisation best described as the propaganda wing of the Labour party - have you seen your headlines in the last month?"
Lojo - Tory voter view
Anyone not bashing the government, and hating Brown is "biased".
It's the entire tory mentality. This way is right - anyone who doesn't think it is an idiot.
Try reading The Daily Mail
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Any chance you could do a piece about Alistair Campbell & Peter Mandelson and their effect on the media since the 1990s ?
I'm sure many people would be interested to learn how they have subverted the popular press and turned the BBC into a New Labour lapdog, certainly more interested than they are about this.
The media are as guilty as the politicians these days, you're all just trying to manipulate people so instead of providing them with facts you always give us a load of opinion instead. That's why we're getting stories about the Tory press officers while you all sit silently whenever the real problems are discussed, namely that unelected officials within the government are being paid with public funds to deceive the public about the things the government are doing.
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" man is innocent until proven innocent or his CV ultimately proves to be flawed. Cameron recruited a person in good faith and based on all he could prove 100%. If this person is now found guilty based on new evidence he gets fired. That's the limit of the Tories responsibility."
Hiring a News of the World editor, to run your media campaign - you could argue that he hired him for the exact exposes and leaks that have dominated the media for the last year
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26. At 10:36am on 09 Jul 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
Labour is so very very afraid of DC and the Conservatives they would jump on any chance to smear them.
Won't work.
Who cares? Most of us don't, actually.
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Patricia,
Your so biased, and one sided, I doubt anyone really cares what you think - David Cameron could announce he's going to crash the earth into the sun as tory policy for 2010, and you'd still refuse to vote labour.
Labour party are accused of attempting to leak info the media - Labour smear!
Tory communication minister potentially involved in the same thing - Labour smear for commenting on it!
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Pot kettle black scenario Mr Naylor
Who are you speaking for when you so rudely say " no one really cares what you think " ?
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In the current climate, Dave would be advised to drop Coulson like a hot potato.
For God's sake, our politicians are already demonstrating that they fail to spend sufficient energy and/or time on the dire state of the nation. The last thing we need now is another act in the media/political circus that detracts from the fundamental point that we're going bankrupt ... whilst our politicians play their self-centred games.
We need to see some ruthless focus by our political elite (ha!) on what really matters: the security and wellbeing people of this country ... not yet another episode in Westminster political shenanigans.
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Well what do you know, for never mind the state the U.K. is in, lets have a good old fashion game of Political Espionage whereby once again Spin-Doctors are now themselves the Front Line story.
There should be enought mileage of Spinning in this Story to welt the appetite of all Political Commentators and keep them in a frenzie.
Therefore folks: Normal Service will be resumed as soon as possible.
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With the last year being dominated by leaks, smears, spin is it actually any real surprise that Camerons communications officer is the ex editor of a red top?
Maybe its a case of fighting fire with fire, from tory HQ, but it makes sense of a lot of things.
Its been quite obvious to me that Labour have been at the mercy of a vicious leaks, smear campaign for the last year or so.
Even the e-mails, from McBride, basically discussing the counter attack were found and ended up in the press.
In truth this entire story, could just be a counter attack in itself.
However bearing in mind how hard Labour were hit, and how much media attention the McBride story garnered, its plain ignorant for tory voters to now say whats the problem, who cares. Yada yada yada.
Id say, if true, its even more serious. And could cost him his job. Even his liberty
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"Unlike Campbell, McBride and others Coulson didn't say anything to become the story. In fact he's said remarkably little for a 'spin doctor'."
Campbell was barely known in the mass media, until maybe 2002, in regards to Labour.
He went about a decade, tricking away in the sidelines.
That's the key to being a succesful media advisor.
Coulson is already headline news, and they aren't even in government yet.
He's obviously gone far too aggresive, with his alledged campaign, and upset people.
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Well Well Well News International (the sun) where great supporter of one T Blair and kept him in power by backing with mainly the SUN.
The Editor might or might not have Known but I sure Mr Murdoch new more than he is letting on.
Cast your minds back to the Leo Blair Kidknapp plot, where the sun broke a story and it was the only paper to break this story (some 6 weeks after the alleged conversations were supported to have taken place)
Where those involved to this day maintain there was no such plot or even a conversation that coul dhave been interpreted as such
This like the Banks is an area where Breakup is required as they have too much influence.
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Politics is a dirty business. tabloid journalism even dirtier; so its no surprise that yet another ex-journo is causing his political masters some pain but this seems to go far deeper than a mere UK version of Watergate. It seems, if the Guardian is correct that the Judiciary, CPS and the police colluded or passively acquiesced in keeping this secret. Thats actually much more important than the debate about cammys communication aide. If true that suggests we the people are back to the bad old days of knowing our place and allowing our betters to sort out things behind closed doors.
We (sort of) trusted MPs then we got the expenses scandal
We (mostly) trusted the Police but scandal after scandal has put a stop to that
Now it seems we cannot trust the judiciary either.
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Nick dearest
How is your (professional) relationship with Mr. Coulson? You don't seem to have the same access to Cameron as you do to Brown.
***
I would question the integrity of anyone who has worked for the gutter press. Is employing people like that necessary for political survival?
It's backfired on Labour, will it backfire on the Tories?
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Presumably Cameron is "relaxed" because he's asked Coulson for assurances he is not involved in these matters and received such assurances. What do you suggest he does in those circumstances? Decide not to believe him and sack him anyway?
It goes without saying that the BBC will make Cameron the story here. As with Mandleson and Deripaska, anything that can reasonably be spun to damage the Tories and deflect from Labour is fair game it would seem.
The sound of Alistair Campbell taking the moral high ground is just so hilarious it defies parody.
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32. At 10:43am on 09 Jul 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
The theory that an editor in chief of a trashy tabloid newspaper, knew nothing about this sort of culture of phone-hacking, leaks, and spin is ridiculous.
And for the leader of the opposition, to hire a disgraced hack like this to be his spin doctor, is testament to how he has run his campaign thus far
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So what is your view on Labour hiring ( again ) Mandy ?
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This blogger looks forward to that happy day when the Tories, Labour and Lib-Dems are 'unbecoming the story'.
Because the sub-text of Nick's piece is that leopards (main-stream political parties) do not change their spots.
Just as it is laughable to expect MP's to 'self-regulate' their behaviour, then it is equally unrealistic to expect them to modify some of their darker practises.
Away with them all.
PS. And the Lords too, who have mysteriously mostly escaped the expenses spotlight despite troughing it bigtime and not even being accountable to the electorate.
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"Mike_Naylor wrote:
Patricia,
Your so biased, and one sided, I doubt anyone really cares what you think - David Cameron could announce he's going to crash the earth into the sun as tory policy for 2010, and you'd still refuse to vote labour."
To be fair there are people on both sides of the political divide who this can apply to and I think most sane people take their comments with a pinch of salt (or just ignore them totally!)
"Labour party are accused of attempting to leak info the media - Labour smear!
Tory communication minister potentially involved in the same thing - Labour smear for commenting on it!"
If this is potentially the same thing then this IS a big story and will reflect very badly on the Tories. However, at the moment this seems to be a different issue.
From what I understand of the current issue Coulson was previously editor of the NotW (before working for the Tories) and members of his team were involved in hacking the phones of senior politicians. There is currently no indication that Coulson was involved or even knew of this.
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With its pay-TV, LCD, celebrity driven, hard news lacking ethos, the Murdoch empire has done more to bring down the quality of life in Britain than any other media outlet. Perhaps it's time for the government to step in and close it down.
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Nick,
Great story but really smacks of Mandy's dirty tricks, clearly he has more time on his hands than he should. Are you happy with being used like this?
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"Mike_Naylor wrote:
Seriously - if a disgraced ex-editor, of the News of the World, is your communications officer - is this really that surprising.
Cameron's whole campaign has been built on leaks"
While I agree that Cameron's campaign has mostly been built on leaks (the rest is Labour in-fighting and making vague promises which sound good)
I am not sure if the ex-editor can be considered disgraced. If the current story is to be believed he resigned because he was the Editor rather then any direct involvement (the resignation of the head of the department is what opposition leaders always demand when there is a failing in a government department - it just appears that in this case that happened!)
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If Andy Coulson was complicit in this whilst at the NotW, then it's a matter for the police and the legal system. I fail to see what it has to do with the conservative party - I doubt that the details would have been on Coulson's CV when he went for the job.
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I can see that a reasonable percentage of posts have already been referred or removed so I will try to tread carefully.
The Guardian and the Labour party are playing a very dangerous game here. I am somewhat reminded of Jonathon Aitken and his sword of justice.
I am not a big fan of News Corporation be it their UK newspapers; Sky or Fox in the States but surely everyone must realise that as far as the next General Election goes Rupert Murdoch and his UK papers and tv will be a big player in the stories up to the election.
There is an interesting piece about Rebekkah Wade's wedding in this weeks Private Eye and the attendance of and length of stay of various politicians. The BBC breakfast news this AM made comments about Mr Murdoch being aware of this story and in some way complicit.
I am sure Machiavelli would tell Messrs Clarke, Prescott & Campbell that they are courting danger.
If there was one person in the media I wouldn't want as an enemy Rupoert Murdoch would be at the top of my list.
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Those calling for Coulson and Murdoch's head should be careful what they wish for, there's a lot of muck just waiting to be raked up here.
New Labour cronies are having a field day milking this for all it's worth. But in a battle of the spin doctors this smells like a stitch-up.
The Cameron supporting Murdoch group is under attack from New Labour which was stung by the McBride scandal.
At the end of the day revenge is a dish best served up by a cold New Labour supporting Guardian and Coulson may have to go.
But outside the Westminster village no one is batting an eyelid. Are there not more important things to worry about?
http://theorangepartyblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/phew-what-stitch-up.html
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This is not just about politics or 'the Westminster village'. It's about the UK media, universally regarded with a combination of awe and contempt.
It's about a toothless press monitoring system. It's about political leaders - of all parties - in hock to media moguls. And worse, it appears that in this instance the judiciary and the police fell into line.
Consequently, to dismiss it as a 'desperate' Labour Party trying to embarrass Cameron is to either not understand the significance of this case or else to be so politically blinkered as to have no worthwhile contribution.
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Mr Robinson, what I find most astonishing, worrying and downright depressing about this whole '..phone hacking..' story is the response to your Article from the first 34 on this Blog.
From londonlavenderbag, jonathan_cook to rockbigphil... onwards every single Comment just accepts that such 'hacking' was not only a NOW newspaper practise but also went/goes on amongst all the politicians and Political Party as well as so-called elite establishment!
Basically, Mr Robinson, if we take the content of their Contributions as anything like representative of the UK Public not one member of the British Electorate doubts that the Political Leadership of these Isles are corrupt at every level. There is no confidence whatsoever in any of the Political leadership.
Is it not time Mr Robinson you raised your journalistic game: I have asked that BBC do this before but it seems imperative now. The British People need someone to REPRESENT them at this crucial stage.
Is it not time for the British Broadcasting Corporation to take a hand in thoroughly investigating, reporting and thereby representing the British Citizens?
How is it the BBC can run-off at the mouth about Mid-East, Indian, Chinese, American, Russian etc. political shennigans, but, it is like a damp, amorphous sponge soaking up the devious, venal wretchedness of the British body-politic without once doing anything that could in any way be construed as Investigative Journalism?
Why does the BBC Report the so-called 'Reform' agenda of Parliament and not ASK/TEST the veracity of what are basically no reform at all!?
Why does the BBC Report the election of Speaker Bercow and not ASK/TEST how such a 2 x house flipper can possibly be an example of the 'reform' agenda!?
Why does the BBC Report the 'phone hacking'-'double-speak'-'political spin' story and not ASK/TEST how it is the British Public would appear to expect nothing else from those sub-standard, corrupt, reprobates presently in the Palace of Westminster!?
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A very sad attempt to avenge the McBride exposee - so funny to hear Prescott's indignant huffing and puffing from "somewhere in Cumbria" on ITV this morning, especially when the subject turned to his tax-payer funded infidelity...more spluttering.....surely this was very much in the national interest, ie his integrity given his position of responsibility.
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Mike_Naylor
you are the most politically biased blogger on here.
What is the weather like today in cloud cuckoo land today?
This all about the Westminster bubble people outside are not interested.
As far as I can see Coulson took responsibility and resigned. This is not the fabrication of smear stories linking right to the judgement of the PM.
Now what did ZaNuLabour want this morning?
To equate Coulson with Mc Poison.
What did they need to do that?
Compliant hacks to run with the story.
Is anyone reliable that they can count on to run the story?
Read this blog and you have your answer.
From past blogs I knew before I came to this blogs that this would be Nicks lead and I was right.
This country is going to hell in a hand cart, we are printing more and more money to try and get movement in the economy before the election so that the sheeple can be fooled again.
And this is the topic for discussion?
Despicable.
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> I wonder how many tory MPs were targeted.........
> I'd wager none
Boris Johnson for one, you lose!
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"I find it hard to believe people will get very excited about journalists hacking celebs' phones. Don't most people (if it's even crossed their minds, which I doubt) expect this to be going on anyay?
A much moe interesting angle is why hadn't GCHQ spotted this a long time ago, tipped off the police and prosecutions brought? I suspect GCHQ knew. I suspect the police knew. I suspect many a political hack knew. I suspect many politicans knew and some have decided now is a good time to ramp the story up to embarrass the Tories. I'm off to read Guido now, to see if that is what's being said over there..."
The same Guido who found fame by revealing that McBride had alledgedly been planning leaks...........
On the Guido website it was uproar!
I assume the same patrons will be saying this is all alright........
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"This is a none-story, just like many of the other anti-Tory stories that have had the pro-Labour media in a frenzy!"
Voters like you were salivating over the McBride story for weeks.
It seems it's only "bad form" when a tory is involved
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"Oh this is really turning into a classic Labour Smear operation. Ben Bradshaw reckons David Cameron has questions to answer? Eh? I didn't realise Mr Cameron worked for the NOTW. Labour are doing their best to stir up innuendo to distract from their myriad troubles.
How desperate"
So was the McBride situation (e-mails alledgedly hacked, published on the tory equivilant of the notorious "red rag") a tory smear campaign?
As in, is exposing this sort of thing a smear?
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Think the Lib Dems put it correctly:
"Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman Chris Huhne said: "At the very least Andy Coulson was responsible for a newspaper that was out of control and at worst he was personally implicated.
'Either way, a future prime minister cannot have someone who is involved in these sort of underhand tactics. The exact parallel is with Damian McBride.
'If it is more than a thousand (phone taps) it seems most unlikely to me to have been just one journalist. There needs to be a full investigation.'
"
It's only fair that this receives the same scrutiny and criticism as the McBride case
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It will be interesting to see how far is this going to go, and if the press and politicians are going to be able to resist the pressure from N.I.
Politicians do rely on the support of Mr.Murdoch, we should not forget Tony Blair's pre election trip to Australia. Labour probably now wants Mr. Coulson to stay becoming a damaged good and easy target, therefore I would not be surprised to see Mr. Cameron letting him go.
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According to Guido:
"An excited Labour spin-doctor called Guido yesterday evening and said were going to do to Coulson what you did to McBride its going to be Coulson, Coulson, Coulson all day."
So I expect we can see the Labour plants on the blog in force. How many new posters targeting the Tories can we expect?
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I am perplexed as to why this has become just a political story? Aren't there celebrities and athletes who's phones and machines have also been tapped into?
How was this able to happen on such a large scale? To so many individuals?
This seems to me to be a MUCH bigger story than merely the Labour party attempting to make David Cameron look like a fool.
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I know your area is politics Nick, but to be honest I already assume politicians and everything to do with them is shady so Cameron & some obscure advisor isn't the big issue to me.
What I do find more interesting is that the police had a list, but the matter has only been dealt with via the civil courts.
This morning there was a herd of five of them pointing a speed laser at me as I left my estate, before I could get to work (20 miles) another one in a van was pointing a camera at me. Six police, two cars, one van, expensive camera and laser gear to investigate me. Clearly they have no shortage of resources or personnel.
But they can't be bothered to investigate a serious crime.
Rather than the advisor I think the big story is why we can't get the police to deal with crimes.
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" I read the newspaper avidly, it is my one form of continuous fiction"
Aneurin Bevan
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Cameron said the decent thing, and after a due period for an irresistible groundswell of chuntering to build (the bother the NoW have got into is serious and has mileage in it, summer recess or no), he will do the expedient thing and sling the guy out. A narrative slightly more predictable than a TV soap, and totally predictable in British politics.
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Looking forwards to seeing which political party actually has the moxy to take a murdoch owned newspaper to task over what is clearly unacceptable practices.
Although 2 articles i've read seem to be implying that the police & the court which dealt with the original royal phone taps have tried to cover this up once already.
Maybe this whole stuation will give us some idea how much political powe & influence power the much-maligned murdoch media actually has in britain.
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"dotconnect wrote:
Lots of opportunists here trying to make this about Labour. I don't expect any different on this blog, but you're all missing the point (as are those trying to use it to attack the integrity of the Tories)."
I don't see how anyone can blame Labour for trying to make political capital out of this. If it was the other way around the Tories would be doing the same.
The problem is that Nick's blog seems to be playing up the David Cameron angle of the story rather then focusing on the story itself. I get the impression that if the ex-editor of the NotW didn't now work for the Tories that this issue would have a lot less attention then it is getting now.
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Just who is making Coulson the story?? There is never a mirror around when you need one is there, Nick! Use your political nouse to trace the origins of the complaints. If the Labour Party had an ounce of sense it would have put a non-political victim of this scam up for questioning Mr Coulson and his boss. By putting forward the group you mention, one of whom happens to be the spinmeister-in-chief, they reveal the essential political tactic that this is.
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oh c'mon Nick, such Labour bias is becoming far to obvious now!!! The truth is I suspect that Labour politicians are more worried about what may have been heard by them than the fact that their phones were tapped.
In anycase, it's ironic from a government which wants to track the move of every member of the public, that they now cry foul when it is their lives that are under scrutiny.
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63. At 11:30am on 09 Jul 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
"Unlike Campbell, McBride and others Coulson didn't say anything to become the story. In fact he's said remarkably little for a 'spin doctor'."
Campbell was barely known in the mass media, until maybe 2002, in regards to Labour.
He went about a decade, tricking away in the sidelines.
That's the key to being a succesful media advisor.
Coulson is already headline news, and they aren't even in government yet.
He's obviously gone far too aggresive, with his alledged campaign, and upset people.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Urmmm as of this moment Coulson has not been proven to have done anything... innocent until proven guilty
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Nick
How about telling us what were your dealings with McBride? Balls claimed that he hardly knew him yet we all know they they were great buddies. Did you get any information from him?
At the present time Coulson "is the story" because you tell the story. Unless there is something to pin on him you are in danger of spinning the NuLabour line and we wouldn't want the BBC to become the labour Press office would we?
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"Mike_Naylor wrote:
"Unlike Campbell, McBride and others Coulson didn't say anything to become the story. In fact he's said remarkably little for a 'spin doctor'."
Campbell was barely known in the mass media, until maybe 2002, in regards to Labour."
I think we must be talking about a different Campbell
From the wikipedia page for Alastair Campbell:
"Shortly after Blair won and became leader of the Labour Party in 1994, Campbell left the newspaper to become his spokesman. Having recovered and become teetotal, he told Blair about his illness, which Blair did not see as a problem.[9] He played an important role in the run-up to the 1997 general election, working with Peter Mandelson to co-ordinate Labour's campaign.
He moved into government when Labour won the 1997 General Election and was the Prime Minister's chief press secretary until 2000. He then moved to the post of Prime Minister's Director of Communications which gave him a strategic role in overseeing government communications."
So Campbell was Blair's spokesman in 1994, heavily involved in the election of 1997 and yet wasn't "known in the mass media, until maybe 2002"
Pull the over one!
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38 Mike_Naylor
Are you for real? I'd wager you haven't a clue what you are talking about. There will have been a trough of Tory MPs targetted. The photo of Boris Johnson on the front page of the BBC News site was a clue, right there. You can't spin this in favour of Labour, ya know. This story could go supernova and if (when?) it does it will prove to be the death blow to Labour. Do you think the police covered all of this up on their own initiative? Lol! Maybe in your world they did, in the real world I think we'll find this path was dictated from the highest level of government. Well, maybe not by Gordon, his moral compass would ensure he did the right thing, because it was the right thing to do. So long Balls, it's all catching up with you!
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54 Mike Naylor
McBride was never a story until copies of his e-mails were published.
There is no evidence against Coulson, however, Labour are trying to whip this up into a bad news story for Cameron. If there is evidence, fine, sack Coulson. Until then shut up.
Also - now that Labour people seem to have found their moral back bone - can you please all use some of this new found character to protest against the Prime Minister who has been telling lies in parliament about his spending plans?
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Are Coulson's "assurances" any more valuable than those Michael Ashcroft has given to DC?
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Goodness me. All the bluster that labour is making over this - anybody would think that Coulson had led us into war under false pretences, or brought the country to the point of bankruptcy, or sold off a chunk of the country's gold reserves off on the cheap, or .....
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If anyone has been tapping John Prescott's phone, good luck to them.
We can't understand what he's gibbering on about at the best of times, never mind trawling through his mobile conversations and messages! What an awful job!
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#50 RobinJD
I think you miss the point.
This is more about the News of the World feeling it's above the law rather than party politics. Questions need to be answered:
- If the police were aware, why did they not prosecute?
- As a former editor, will Andy Coulson explain himself?
- For David Cameron to be 'relaxed' is contemptuous in the extreme, will he explain himself? He's exhibiting the same parliamentary arrogance as Gordon Brown.
This is very sinister - out of the New Labour frying pan and straight into the Conservative fire.
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Culture Media and Sport committee has just been joined by Tom Watson! That'll bring a bit of class to the proceedings.
Surely all of this is like one A Campbell worked for Robert Maxwell before going to No. 10 with Tony Blair. Many people were worried by that association - let's face it Cap'n Bob could teach people a thing or two about dirty tricks.
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"Mike_Naylor wrote:
It's only fair that this receives the same scrutiny and criticism as the McBride case"
Well Nick has blogged on this subject, I think he was on holiday when the McBride case broke. So if anything this is getting more scrutiny then the McBride case.
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This story is about how and why the High Court and police apparently saw fit to suppress details of a massive illegal phone-tapping project by one of Murdoch's trashcans, the News Of The World. But all we read on this blog is a dreary tit-for-tat about various nonentities and nincompoops in the Labour and Conservative parties. Wake up! - our liberties are everywhere under attack, yet you drone on about DC or Brown and all the rest of them.
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Let's cut the hysteria and get back to good old British values which state - INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.
Or are we already in a dictatorship run by the BBC and Nick Robinson?
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Bob_Slayer and #81.
Silly, lardy, and wholly unfit for Office Prescott deserved/s every bit of contempt.
However, if you are suggesting that 'phone-tapping' of UK Politicians to expose a kiss-and-tell story is legitimate practise then I really cannot agree at all.
UK investigative journalists have a unique role in the 'democracy' of the nation as the present 'Expenses Scandal' so clearly demonstatrates. Breaking the law by using a 'Whistleblower' who has confidential information is a direct form of representing the UK Public; breaking law by randomly 'hacking' the phones, computers etc. of elected National leaders, however pathetic their antics, is totally unjustified.
The BBC must do much more to cover this entire 'Right to Know' issue from the high ground and any investigating of the veracity of UK Leadership must use legal methods. BBC can surely find those willing to expose corrupt practises etc without resorting to 'dirty' journalism: The News of World runs salacious nonsense most of the time and tapping telephones for that sort of stuff is simply unacceptable.
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The sky news website is hilarious - first they censored a load of e-mail comments asking why Sky has not declared an interest in the story (as is the convention) - now there is a tiny statement at the bottom of one of the articles admitting Sky news is part of News International.
On every other news website i've looked at this is definitely the big story of the day, on sky its getting progressively bumped down the headline list.
And some people, including Sky themselves on occasion, say the BBC is biased....
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We now have those great champions of justice and human rights, the Lib/Dems and the Labour party calling for Coulson to be sacked. Why ? Has he been tried in his absence and found guilty ? This is a bit rich coming from the people who a few weeks ago didn't reckon stealing money from the taxpayer was even against the rules , never mind wrong , or a criminal offence. Now we have a man they think deserves to be punished before he is found to have done anything wrong. Great demonstration of their take on justice.
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That does it. No matter how earnestly David Cameron tries to persuade me that Britain needs him as P.M, if he can employ the ex-editor of a pathetic little sex comic ('news'paper? yeah - it really makes me proud to be British) as a Director of Communications, he's lost it as far as I'm concerned.
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Mike_Naylor, not quite sure where your colours lie, based on the incredible slant you manage to out on your posts. You'd almost think you were angling for the job of next BBC Political Editor.
Let's go back and read the story, shall we?
NotW acted both unethically, and 'potentially' illegaly, in hacking mobile phones. The Guardian, whose story this is and who stands to gain most from trashing one of their competitors, have stated that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Andy Coulson knew what was going on - and that when the story broke, he did what an editor should do in these circumstances - shouldered the blame and resigned. Others were prosecuted, sacked, for their involvement. But he knew nothing, and the Guardian say so in their article. Even Nick admits as much.
David Cameron then employs him as a Communications Officer, and like any party leader, would have gone to great lengths to ensure that there were no more skeletons to come out. So still no problem. And Coulson does a very good job of getting Tory news and policy out - far better than anyone in the Government appears able to do. So they resort to type and start smearing him.
How on earth Two-Jags has the nerve to pontificate is beyond me. If he had any morals himself he might still be in the Cabinet.
Get over it, Mike - it's a non-story, and no matter how many posts you make here, you'll not make it true. And quoting the Lib Dems? Purleeze! Of course they take the opportunity to have a go at Labour and the Tories. No surprise there - but STILL no story against Coulson.
If you are so concerned about the integrity of our politicians and the media men they employ, I'd strongly suggest that most, if not all, of your real targets wear red rosettes....
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Apparently this is bigger than just one newspaper and one editor - we know that the BBC and Labour are trying to make Coulson the story - but if the allegations are true, the Police and CPS have questions to answer and the fact they didn't prosecute any others could be seen as political which involves the government at the time - hello Labour!
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As managers with backbone are prone to do, Coulson took responsibility for the actions of one of his staff and resigned.
Brown failed to take any responsibility for the actions of one of his insiders.
A non-story but gross hypocrisy from Nu Lie-bore.
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#50 RobinJD
Consequently, is it you who keeps referring me for calling the Conservative Party the 'ModCons' - I know it's upset you in the past.
What are they called now, isn't it the Loving Tories or something?
Interesting, New Labour, Kind Tories - it's like rugby teams adding an adjective to make themselves sound better.... lies, damned lies and cheap marketing!
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103. At 12:46pm on 09 Jul 2009, HumanCashPoint wrote:
it's ironic from a government which wants to track the move of every member of the public, that they now cry foul when it is their lives that are under scrutiny.
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A very good point
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Cameron dare not sack Coulson, he has far too much dirt on George Osborne his side kick.
I could bet a pound to a penny that before the next General Election, the Osborne saga will come to light and then he will have some explaining to do.
I love it, watching these Tories squirm, I hope Labour milks it for all it is worth.
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We really need to see the HoC stick the boot into McBride who is still "on the run" I think and Coulson. They could be thorough and actually pull in Campbell.
Whilst politicians think spin works and you can take the people with you we will always run the risk of morally bankrupt governments - and oppositions. Thats not good for democracy.
True Coulson has done nothing wrong for the Tories - so far as I know - but if he looked the other way on criminal matters that is serious and its not what the public wants.
I appreciate you don't want a "boy scout/girl guide" on the team but people who may have to talk to the Met Police are probably vote losers.
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The way the public feel about Labour politicians at present I would think any snooping, albeit illegal, is fair sport.
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its attitudes like this that got us where we are as a country.
the real public, those of us who are not politically motivated to take sides because of where we grew up or where we work, have a pretty poor opinion of ALL politicians, not just labour. And its spreading to other avenues too. Dirty tricks by these 'educated' people to get one over on anyone and everyone they like because they have the resources to do so. It all smacks of double standards and theres not a thing we can do as the real academics (certainly not myself), the people capable of properly running a country or a company are too smart to get involved in this blue vs red (on the benches and in the papers)farce thats been going on for decades. less childish debate and more actual work please.
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31. At 10:42am on 09 Jul 2009, probablynogod wrote:
Amazing. Here is a story about the NotW breaking the law by hacking into people's mobile phones, and the first responses on here are to blame the Labour Party.
Possibly because the initial Labour/BBC response was to blame the Tories?
Anyway, isn't the real story the fact that Labour have obviously decided Murdoch is going to advise voting Tory at the next election? Otherwise would they, through the Guardian/BBC, have picked a fight with him on this?
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Good to see Mandelson commenting that there was "no way" Andy Coulson couldn't have know what was going on as he was the man in charge.
Could someone ask Mandelson whether he though Gordon Brown knew about the 'dirty tricks' emails being planned by Damian McBride? GB, was after all the man in charge.
Finally is it just me or is Nick's blog (about problems for the Tories) at much greater length and depth than his usual blogs.....?
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I think most people, including journalists are missing the elephant in the room on this story - it seems according to various articles, including Mr Robinson's that the police were aware that the NoW had been tapping thousands of phones a couple of years ago - but a decision was made not to investigate further.
Surely the big story is why the police made that dexcision, based on what factors and whether there was any pressure on them not to take it further & if so, who from.
The whole scenario screams cover-up and seems to suggest there may be a two tier legal system at work - if I had tapped thousands of phones and was discovered i doubt I'd be charged & scentenced for just a couple of them.
The aspect that journalists are focusing on is the least relevant - David Cameron may have shown poor judgement inhiring coulson, but unless he is responsible for eg. bugging labour phones for the tories, then its a non-story - as you say Nick, theres no evidence that he even knew about it.
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When Prescott goes to the Police to make a complaint about phone tapping, will he be handing himself in over possible miss-use of public funds in getting those tacky mock tudor beams nailed to the side of his house?
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Well, we have a situation here - one needs to become a criminal in order to bring criminals to justice. Doesn't it show how hard it is to uncover and expose devious dodgers of the law when people have to go undercover - this reporter was acting on behalf of the tax payer. Try asking the nation what should happen to him/her/them - I am sure you would not get many people calling the reporter a criminal - they would probably say let him investigate even more - legally and with greater investigation and research powers.
Why should the reporter be treated as a criminal - he brought to our attention lots of tax thieving people - who would ordinarily have been jailed for a long, long time?
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In June 2007 the Times newspaper reported that David Cameron, advised by George Osborne, hired Coulson over the heads of Francis Maude party chairman and George Bridges head of campaigning, so right or wrong, Coulson is Cameron's/Osbourne's baby and as such they are responsible for any repercussions that may follow.
The situation today is that David Cameron and George Osbourne have become Coulson's mouth piece, just listen to the language they use during personnal attacks on political opponents, pure tabloid.
The question for the David Cameron Conservative Party, can it be sure that Coulson has left behind all those tactics he used and approved of during his time as editor of the NoW?
It seems strange that leaks stopped following a mishandled police investigation into the payment to a civil servant in return for information. Ofcource its common practice in the newspaper industry to pay for information
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Did people really think Coulson is being paid £275,000 per year to type Cameron's press releases? It was the 'skills' he developed at the NoW which they wanted to exploit. Now we know a little bit more about what those skills were.
And how much of a surprise is it to find that Cameron and George Osborne were personally involved in persuading Coulson to join the tories?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article1890577.ece
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#80 ikamaskeip
Mr Robinson, what I find most astonishing, worrying and downright depressing about this whole '..phone hacking..' story is the response to your Article from the first 34 on this Blog.
From londonlavenderbag, jonathan_cook to rockbigphil... onwards every single Comment just accepts that such 'hacking' was not only a NOW newspaper practise but also went/goes on amongst all the politicians and Political Party as well as so-called elite establishment!
Basically, Mr Robinson, if we take the content of their Contributions as anything like representative of the UK Public not one member of the British Electorate doubts that the Political Leadership of these Isles are corrupt at every level. There is no confidence whatsoever in any of the Political leadership.
Is it not time Mr Robinson you raised your journalistic game: I have asked that BBC do this before but it seems imperative now. The British People need someone to REPRESENT them at this crucial stage.
Is it not time for the British Broadcasting Corporation to take a hand in thoroughly investigating, reporting and thereby representing the British Citizens?
How is it the BBC can run-off at the mouth about Mid-East, Indian, Chinese, American, Russian etc. political shennigans, but, it is like a damp, amorphous sponge soaking up the devious, venal wretchedness of the British body-politic without once doing anything that could in any way be construed as Investigative Journalism?
Why does the BBC Report the so-called 'Reform' agenda of Parliament and not ASK/TEST the veracity of what are basically no reform at all!?
Why does the BBC Report the election of Speaker Bercow and not ASK/TEST how such a 2 x house flipper can possibly be an example of the 'reform' agenda!?
Why does the BBC Report the 'phone hacking'-'double-speak'-'political spin' story and not ASK/TEST how it is the British Public would appear to expect nothing else from those sub-standard, corrupt, reprobates presently in the Palace of Westminster!?
----
Excellently put, well said! Over to you, Nick.
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Can't see that Coulson is the issue and this is either a distraction tactic or just a target of opportunity.
The Guardian is clear that they have no evidence contrary to the view that Coulson knew nothing.
Why the resurfacing of this story now and what whoever is responsible hopes to gain seem far from clear.
Cameron would survive losing Coulson and make no difference to the outcome of an election. I just can't see anyone changing their vote even if he was implicated and Cameron didn't sack him, it is just not that important in the grand scheme of things.
Do Labour not get it , it isn't that people like Cameron particularly, it is that they hate Brown and Labour with a passion. This is not going to make anyone hate Cameron who does not do so already (the red plank voting brigade).
Whether he is there or not will not influence the publisher of the NotW one way or the other as to who they will support at the election.
So I can't see the point of trying to make this story out of it unless the target is other and the reason different.
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89. At 12:19pm on 09 Jul 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
Think the Lib Dems put it correctly:
"Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman Chris Huhne said: "At the very least Andy Coulson was responsible for a newspaper that was out of control and at worst he was personally implicated.
'Either way, a future prime minister cannot have someone who is involved in these sort of underhand tactics. The exact parallel is with Damian McBride.
'If it is more than a thousand (phone taps) it seems most unlikely to me to have been just one journalist. There needs to be a full investigation.'
"
It's only fair that this receives the same scrutiny and criticism as the McBride case
-------------------------
I have to be very careful about the language I use to describe you, as I fear I may open myself to being moderated.
It is not just that you are the most blinkered and blindly loyal poster on here (despite your laughable accusations about everyone elses' bias), it is not just that you interpret everything in the most pro labour light you can (an accusation that can be leveled at both sides), but you actually take a set of facts, and change them to suit your warped and ridiculous opinions. I am afraid that your mental capacity must be brought into question.
Fact 1: McBride was caught red handed with evidence that he was complicit in a fabricated smear campaign.
Fact 2: Noone even attempted to deny his culpability, he was sacked for the offence.
Fact 3: He himself never seemed to show the slightest remorse for what had happened.
Fact 4: McBride was involved with the labour party, and very close Gordon Brown at the time of his misdeed. He was acting on behalf of the labour party.
Now compare and contrast with Coulson.
Fact 1: There was some impropriety at his paper. No evidence or suggestion that he was involved.
Fact 2: He took responsibility and displayed remorse by quitting.
Fact 3: Cameron hired him, a non disgraced former editor of a rag newspaper.
Fact 4: Since taking his position with the Tory party, there has been no suggestion of any wrongdoing on his part. The hint of possible misjudgement in his life is set firmly prior to his involvement with Cameron.
Do you see the difference?
Do I think Cameron should be using an ex editor of a rag newspaper? No I do not. But think it through, and come to a logical conclusion instead of the absolute garbage you habitually spout.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#89
Mike
The difference between McBride and Coulson is that the former DID do something and the latter is (at least at the moment) only ALLEGED to have done something.
If you look hard, you may be able to see which is a smear and which not.
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I cannot see what the fuss is about. We have been told so many times in relation to Government and Local Authority proposals to eavesdrop on our phones, film us, and intercept our email messages, that if we have nothing to hide we have nothing to fear. If this is the case it applies to John Prescott and all.
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I would like to thank all the NuCons here for confirming that when anyone else breaks the law they must be prosecuted with full rigour yet when it is a member of the Tory cohort it is Labour smears!
Not one Tory has condemned the actions of News International. Cheers! Proves the old nasty Tories are lying dormant.
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LOL. The election won't be until May 2010, and *already* the Labour spin machine is cranking this material out.
There's going to be some humdingers coming out when Labour decide nothing is off-limits to keep their snouts in the trough.
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SMEAR ....they cried. What a bunch of one eyed monsters who comment on here!. I also notice that they are not very 'relaxed' about it.... "Oh Nick your so biased"...blah, blah, blah.
To hack into someones private information is a scandal!
To compare this to Damien McBride's kinder garden e-mails is hilarious.
David Cameron will not be able to ride away on his high horse on this one.
To hire someone as your Director of Communications who may well had full knowledge of what was going on in this scandal, is very poor judgement.
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What a load of Jumpy Jacks we see today rushing to our TV screens. Labour MP's I mean.
Revenge is all around us. Just the start of the dirtiesr most loathesome election campaign ever seen.
But wait. Didn't the Guardian state it has no evidence against Coulson?
Could it be that Labour have actually shot themselves in the foot yet again and as the ruling party may have opened up their biggesst cans of worms yet?
Looks like it may not be such a boring summer after all.
I'm sure there must be many of them starting to wonder what is locked away in some solicitor's office somewhere.
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To all re. phone taps and GCHQ etc:
The sources of this information were most likely not mobile phone taps in the sense of each call being recorded and replayed - you need a court order from a senior judge to set one up and this has to be backed by good evidence as to why you want it, it also goes through the hoops at the service provider (ie vodafone) to be put in place
The only real agency that can 'sniff' the signal out of the air and decode it are GCHQ - and to be honest they really aren't bothered about what celeb's and the odd politician gets up to. They are more interested in actual security and not political infighting
You can of course intercept the wireless signal but to do this you would need to follow each person around with an RF receiver and record the transmission. The all you need to do is crack the encryption algorithm (in the EU we A5.1 A5.2 and A5.3) which will quite happily keep any brute force cracking programme out for approx 6 years.........(assuming you have a cray at hand with nothing else to crunch)
Of course if you know the algorithm you can listen in seconds, now: Who from you guys out there knows how th A5.x algorithm works hmmm? Or has access to decryption equipment capable of brute force cracking the algorithm (and I am talking super computer fast)
I work in telecomms and believe you me there aren't that many actual live traces in place - and you need to move mountains to get them setup legaly. Before anyone starts you can't set them up illegaly either, the switching centres report on any and all active traces and if they aren't listed as legit they are gone
I would think that most of this information has come from voicemails left for people. Voicemails are kept on a seperate server which would be a more likely target for hackers as they are (mostly) on less secure servers and are stored unencrypted. All you would need to do is get to where they are stored and copy them. Encryption is only used during an active call, not on saved messages
To be honest this is a bit of a non story really, both sides of the political line in the sand have been at the same games for years now. They are no better than each other
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The moderators are trying to keep this from you, so you are going to have to do you own research about this.
The was once a very high profile protest group. Batman and Robin etc.
There were many issues and still are with the Family Courts and Force Adoption.
Then there was a story about Leo Blair and a kidnapped plot.
This was totally denied and events later proved this no charged and no arrests funny that.
This group then became the story NOT the campaigning Issues (shame on the media here)
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One thing about the BBC: at least if they are ever the subject of a scandal (Ross/Brand, phone-competitions, etc*) they are upfront about it and where necessary will make it the leading story. In fact sometimes their honesty is bordering on masochism.
The privately-owned news outlets on the other hand do everything they can to bury it.
(*Balen report the only exception I can think of)
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"Jidleys wrote:
That does it. No matter how earnestly David Cameron tries to persuade me that Britain needs him as P.M, if he can employ the ex-editor of a pathetic little sex comic ('news'paper? yeah - it really makes me proud to be British) as a Director of Communications, he's lost it as far as I'm concerned."
Hmmm a new anti-Tory poster who suddenly appears on the day Labour have decided to bring down Coulson.
Could the reason that you feel that Cameron has lost it is because you work for Labour?
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I'm 100% Tory, but on this occasion I happen to believe the appointment of Coulson to have been a mistake. Innocent until proved guilty not withstanding, this was a bomb waiting to go off.
I see the logic of 'poacher turned gamekeeper' in his employment, but why should it be necesary to come down to the sad depths that new Labour are prepared to go.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
A mature discussion would recognize that an illegal press is not a party political issue,but one that strikes at rights of the citizen and the legitimacy of democracy.
Knowledge is power and a section of the press have arrogated rights over the citizen denied even to the security services.This is not a fourth estate, but a state within a state.
We need to know how this information was used? and who its recipients are apart from the press?
The press are power brokers like lobbyists and pressure group,they are not above the political process but a part of it, who use criminal activity to achieve outcomes which advantage their political friends.
You should be united in condemnation of their practises, and in defence of the rule of law.
Not `Who cares` as one contributor pronounced,but defend,defend,defend before it devours you.
Bryher
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For the lab and lib supporters calling for Coulson to be sacked - how do you propose this is done legally? Unless Coulson lied on his CV what happened in the past is not relevant in law to his new job, unless you want to change the law so that an employer can sack an employee for any reason just because they feel like, please just accept Cameron cannot sack Coulson.
Nick let me understand what the story is:
Man, now employed by Tory party, once upon time was the manager of some staff who broke the law although the man himself was not involved.
Now I can see why this is a story about the media - but a political story? Labour smear. Of course you could make this a story about why the issue is raised now and how involved were the labour party in ensuring it got publicity but you will not becuase that might involve you criticising your beloved labour party.
Come the election there are a lot of BBC journalists who will need new jobs - bring back unbiased reporting
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Blimey ! Where has Mike_Naylor gone, not got his head stuck in the Labour HQ mini bar again
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"AndyC555 wrote:
Good to see Mandelson commenting that there was "no way" Andy Coulson couldn't have know what was going on as he was the man in charge.
Could someone ask Mandelson whether he though Gordon Brown knew about the 'dirty tricks' emails being planned by Damian McBride? GB, was after all the man in charge."
I wouldn't hold your breath on that question being asked! And I wouldn't be surprised to find your comment moderated for daring to suggest anything negative about GB.
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Never sure what's on topic here - stuff veers all over the place.
Miscommunication seems to the topic, so let's try this one...
The G8 (plus some) leaders "agree" they will stop the earth warming by 2 degrees. So governments agree on our behalf to place enormous burdens on their economies. Some nations will reduce CO2 output.
Brown says the world knows that climate change will occur. And if we all hang together, we can stop it... Another great scientist, Ed Miliband, backs him to the hilt.
All scientists agree that global warming has happened before and will happen again. (Thank goodness - Britain was covered by ice a while back... Then it got warm enough to grow grapes. Then we had a mini ice age. Then it got warmer.)
Many eminent scientists doubt the IPCC evidence that it is man made. Doesn't mean they don't think it's possible, just that the evidence is extremely flakey... Don't look for kooks on the web, you'll find plenty of extremely expert opinion.
NASA information seems to indicate that global temperature has actually dropped back over the last decade. Many scientists question the validity of computer models used to predict outcomes, when the effects have only been studied for barely 50 years and reliable temperature measurement around the globe is patchy at best. And, it seems the wonderful "hockey stick" graph used by Al Gore et al, is based on a computer model and data that have never been made available for all interested and qualified scientists to perform peer reviews. (In other words, take it on trust... WHY?)
Let's suppose we all agree we can't rely on natural oil and gas.
Let's suppose we reduce man made CO2 emission by 85 percent. But volcanoes and forest fires still occur, and we can't do much about that!
Who do we bill if temperature goes up by 5C, or drops further (because nature is so unpredictable)? If we can't bill anyone, what's the point of government leaders (most of whom haven't a clue about science) blathering on about "we will stop temperature rises"?
Does it matter if the "communicator" is either a crook, or simply ignorant, if the message is so stupid?
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David Cameron needs to explain himself.... there's nothing relaxing about the law being broken, unless of course he's decided to position the Tories as party of law and disorder - for the wealthy.
Is that it? Are the Tories quite happy for people to break the law as long as they've got a bit of cash? Very relaxing, yes.
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Yet another Nic(vote Liebour) Robinson story that stinks of bias. What I would like to know is that when the McBride scandle blew up our beloved leader Mr Brown claimed to have known nothing about the emails and smears, yet he was the leader of the government!!! so when Coulson stated he knew nothing of this bugging we have all the labour cronies coming out of the wood work saying that must be wrong. Prescott get back in the jack in the box you sprang from!!!!!!
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Unless there is some evidence against Coulson, this story is all about the inner workings of Labour's Smear Unit.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/4486193/labour-prime-their-anticoulson-strategy.thtml
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142. At 1:48pm on 09 Jul 2009, siranthonyj wrote:
The situation today is that David Cameron and George Osbourne have become Coulson's mouth piece, just listen to the language they use during personnal attacks on political opponents, pure tabloid.
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Care to give some examples (preferably some that can't be countered with similar attacks levelled by labour MPs against the Tories)?
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Nothing more than you would expect from this nasty, disgusting and frankly useless member of the Murdoch stable. We all know that the press and media think they rule the politics of this country with their holier than thou attitude. I just hope that this comes home to roost on the right perch. Already Dave's acolytes are trying the old "it's a Labour smear" tactic, which don't really wash as I'm sure News international would not have tried to cover it up if it was. Once again shows why the british public should not take too much notice of its press. The old adage says only believe yesterdays football scores and the date on the top of the page in any paper you read.
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This is a cheap revenge shot, coordinated by BBC & Guardian.
You cannot tar David Cameron with the same Damian McBride and sleazy way Labour works I'm afraid. Your attempts are to mind-numbingly transparent, I dispair for you. Especially when other MSM are seeing this as a non-story.
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Is it having a go at Robinson and BBC day? Because they are not supporting our darling!
Being neither Tory or Labour support per se, I find it astonishing how the paid up Tory drones trying to save their darling DC. Tory spin machine, bankrolled by bankrolled by Lord Ashcroft money is trying to defend the Tony spin master Coulson and their poster boy to save the day for Chameleon DC.
Tories easily forget the kind of language they use in media, in the parliament and indeed in informal meetings they have, shame they can only dish out but cant take it back.
Get out of the kitchen if you cant take the heat. Grow up, plaese!
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29. At 10:40am on 09 Jul 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
Seriously - if a disgraced ex-editor, of the News of the World, is your communications officer - is this really that surprising.
Cameron's whole campaign has been built on leaks
===
How about if your communications officer was an ex-pornographer and close colleague of the swindler Robert Maxwell at The Daily Mirror? Would that be bad, Mike?
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The triumvirate of the BBC, Labour and the Guardian strike again: any piece of trivial news that can be spun above the issues that really affect the licence-payer: the appalling debt inflicted by the Labour recession, mass redundacies, people losing their homes, a lost generation leaving school and university to little or no prospect of work. Does the BBC never feel shame, never waiver from its following of the Labour line? The licence payer deserves better than this. With the money I and others pay we expect responsible reporting and impartiality.
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So the Clown took us into Iraq on lies - Mandelson had assistance from Robinson, Mandelson had to leave Govt twice!! - Prescott has affair with Sec - 2 or 3 Jags - wifes hair being blown about - David Kelly??? -and THESE r the people TRYING with Nick Robinson to imply that CAMERONs judgement is at fault - is this 1st April???, and what really bad news has been buried today?????????? by the despicable Liebour party and its favoured hacks.
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Shadow chancellor George Osborne told the BBC that since he began working for the Tories, Mr Coulson "has conducted his job in a totally upright and proper matter and will continue to do so".
So he's whiter then white now?
Washing machine on full spin, eh George?
Not even biological will get this stain out!
There is nothing like a good old news 'hack'.
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51. At 11:18am on 09 Jul 2009, redwedgie wrote:
A few things have become much clearer this morning. It is now blindingly obvious that the press complaints commission is a joke. There is no body that regulates the media and without this the tabloids at least are running wild. Not in the name of openness or justice but simply for the sake of salacious gossip. The media must be properly regulated. It is ludicrous to think they can self-regulate, any more than the banks or Westminster.
And just one week after David Cameron threatened to remove Ofcom's powers should he become next Prime Minister after they dared speak out against Sky tv's monopoly his judgement is again being called into question. Cameron knows he will need News International working overtime to become next Prime Minister. Personally I could never vote for a man who would employ someone like Andy Coulson.
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Could you vote for a man who employed an ex-pornographer and close associate of Robert Maxwell?
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ikamaskeip @ 120
Point taken - indeed I wouldn't condone such practices. It was more a general point that they who live by the sword die by it (the sword being *all* these nefarious tapping & leaking, lying and smearing practices)....although the sight of that sanctimonious windbag Prescott STILL lauding it up on tax-payers money just takes the biscuit.
As many have said, this is nothing to do with Cameron and all about the apparant failure of the Met and the CPS.....and party-politically, not even in the same ball-park as the downright evil McBride / Draper affair....
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52. At 11:18am on 09 Jul 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
Damien McBrides private e-mails appear in Sunday Newspaper. He claims they were hacked.
Tory MP accused of trying to solicit home-office information out of civil servant.
Jacqui Smiths expenses appear in Sunday Newspaper
All MP expenses appear in Sunday newspaper.
Guardian alledge NOTW paid off people they had allegedly hacked.
1: Newspapers, and there need for exclusives, are at the heart of it.
2: Hiring the ex editor in chief, of the News of the World a paper completely built on leaks and exposes as your communications officer, is probably telling the general public how you plan to run your campaign.
Leaks, smears, and spin
===
How about hiring an ex-pornographer and close associate of the crook and pension thief, Robert Maxwell? I'm guessing the campaigns would be based on leaks, smears, and spin, and maybe hounding an innocent man to his grave, as well.
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70 ghostworld
So what is your view on Labour hiring ( again ) Mandy ?
I really would like someone to explain to me why Mandelson is suposed
to be such a bad guy, I am the first to admit that he made a big mistake over his mortgage arrangements but compared to whats been revealed recently its pretty small change and cost the country nothing,but unlike many today including Cameron, he resigned, he was later reinstated by Tony Blair, the Tories who have always feared him then decided to promote lies against him over the passports of two wealthy individuals, in order not to embarress the government although protesting his inocents and backed by Blair but he decided to resign once again, when his case was investigated it was found that there was no truth in the allegations, he served as a MP for Hartlepool for twelve years before taking the position as Eropean comissioner in 2004and held this position with honour until 2008 when he was brought back into the government by Gordon Brown. where up until now he has done a sterling job for labour and for many workers in this country.
So yes it was a good decision by GB.
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Nick,
It seems that you can provide a lot of speculation and insinuation but no actual evidence of any wrongdoing by Andy Coulson. A number of political journalists were linked to the McBride smears, can I speculated and insinuate about your possible involvement here or would the moderators like some evidence first?
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58. At 11:22am on 09 Jul 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
" man is innocent until proven innocent or his CV ultimately proves to be flawed. Cameron recruited a person in good faith and based on all he could prove 100%. If this person is now found guilty based on new evidence he gets fired. That's the limit of the Tories responsibility."
Hiring a News of the World editor, to run your media campaign - you could argue that he hired him for the exact exposes and leaks that have dominated the media for the last year
===
Ditto Labour, for hiring Alistair Campbell, except make that 12 years.
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75 Mark We
Its a poor editor that does'nt ask where the information came from thats going into his newspaper, another Piers Morgan it would seem.
Sorry about all the spelling mistakes on the other blog Mark[ gollege and the like].
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At a time when politicians are trying to convince the voting public that they are righteous and honourable, this story raises its ugly head.
All that it does is to remind us that politics is a dirty business.
After the spin of the Blair government, who can possibly believe anything that the politicians say, do, or promise.
For me this is the U.K.s 'Watergate'.
How can David Cameron and the Conservative Party possibly support Coulson now?
He must go.....and go now !
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166. At 2:23pm on 09 Jul 2009, extremesense wrote:
David Cameron needs to explain himself.... there's nothing relaxing about the law being broken, unless of course he's decided to position the Tories as party of law and disorder - for the wealthy.
Is that it? Are the Tories quite happy for people to break the law as long as they've got a bit of cash? Very relaxing, yes.
-----
Where and when, exactly, did Cameron say that he was relaxed about the law being broken?
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166. At 2:23pm on 09 Jul 2009, extremesense wrote:
David Cameron needs to explain himself.... there's nothing relaxing about the law being broken, unless of course he's decided to position the Tories as party of law and disorder - for the wealthy.
Is that it? Are the Tories quite happy for people to break the law as long as they've got a bit of cash? Very relaxing, yes.
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There is not implication that anyone involved with the Tories have broken the law in this matter. Even the Guardian have refused to implicate Coulson.
Do try to keep up.
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One last try -
I can't believe that vitually everybody on here is using this issue as a political football.
The big story is the unlawful activities of the News of the World and the police decission to take no further action at the time of the original trial at which the information come to light.
Turning it into labour vs tories is spinning the story away from those who are actually culpable ie. News International and refocusing on 2 political parties who had no part in this particular illegal activity.
This is a possible case of one of the worlds biggest media organisations receiving special treatment from the british establishment.
Why is nobody asking why?
Or is it the usual case of media outlets sticking together, because i can promise you, if the boot was on the other foot and BBC journalists had been caught in unlawful activity, then Sky news et al would be shouting it to the rooftops demanding that the charter be revoked immediately.
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125. At 1:29pm on 09 Jul 2009, Jidleys wrote:
That does it. No matter how earnestly David Cameron tries to persuade me that Britain needs him as P.M, if he can employ the ex-editor of a pathetic little sex comic ('news'paper? yeah - it really makes me proud to be British) as a Director of Communications, he's lost it as far as I'm concerned.
===
And by the same token you could never vote Labour either?
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140. At 1:41pm on 09 Jul 2009, jrperry wrote:
At time of posting, 17 out of 132 posts in this thread are by someone called Mike_Naylor.
I notice, Mike, that few of your posts involve any serious recognition of what anyone else has written - they are just splurges of speculative opinion. So Mike, my question is, couldn't you have said it in fewer posts? Do you have some reason to try and keep this story "hot"? Because frankly, the content of the story doesn't seem to be developing anything like as quickly as the content of your ever more lurid posts
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Maybe he is on piece work, and gets paid per post?
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170 notfooledsteve
"Once again shows why the british public should not take too much notice of its press. "
===============================
so why you are getting so excited about a story in the Guardian newspaper ???
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150. At 1:58pm on 09 Jul 2009, Iwilltellyouthis wrote:
I would like to thank all the NuCons here for confirming that when anyone else breaks the law they must be prosecuted with full rigour yet when it is a member of the Tory cohort it is Labour smears!
Not one Tory has condemned the actions of News International. Cheers! Proves the old nasty Tories are lying dormant.
===
Could you for the sake of clarity share your amazing telepathic skills with us and let us know which posters on here are Tories, as opposed to being simply ABL (Anybody But Labour)?
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@ #150
Not true.
I said in my post #126 that NotW acted unethically, and potentially illegaly. However, that does not mean that Andy Coulson also was personally involved. If you are trying to say that because NotW was guilty, then so are the Conservative Party because someone who works for them once worked for NotW, then can I suggest you brush up on your law, mate?
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David Cameron said "It is wrong for newspapers to breach people's privacy without justification. I mean that is why after all Andy Coulson resigned from the News of the World two-and-a-half years ago.
"Of course I knew about that resignation when I gave him a job.
"But I believe in giving people a second chance and as the director of communications he does an excellent job for the Conservative Party and behaves properly and in an upright way in everything he does."
Does this mean Cameron actually knew that criminal acts had been carried out and he didn't report them?
If so, is this 'a very proper and upright way' for a potential future prime minister to behave?
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155 mightychewster
GCHQ are certainly capable of establishing that a small number of phone lines (eg from a bank of desks in NoW HQ, or some private dick's study) are calling _thousands_ of mobile voicemails. Computers are good at that kind of thing... Would they be interested? Well, some of these voicemails belonged to royalty. Some to business people and some to politicians. So I think they would be interested, yes. If not, we want our money back!
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Isn't there a major difference between Coulson's stint at the NOTW and McBride's term at Downing Street? Namely that Coulson was a tabloid editor, and an employee of a private organisation, McBride was a civil servant paid for by tax payers money. Coulson resigned over the arrest of the royal reporter and he then got another another job, McBride likewise paid with his job and is now free to seek another.
Lastly, The Guardian admits it has no new evidence over the matter, and is there even the slightest shred of evidence that Coulson was responsible for the McBride e-mails being leaked to Guido Fawkes? If there is none then people should really stop insinuating it!
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Nick
Someone on the covered up list must be super-sensitive. This goes beyond politics, famous people etc. I guess the NOTW reporters must have stumbled inadvertently on a national security matter. I suspect that this is D Notice material. Is Jack Straw lying low?
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The gossip-fueled dreams of the red-top journos/editors,read by gossip-fueled readers/subscribers.
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#87 Mike Naylor....
I am not a voter. I have never voted having joined the Army at 15 years old in 1972 and leaving just before Tony Blair came to power. I wasn't allowed to vote while in the Army and I haven't voted since because none of the parties actually deserve my vote! Right now, I haven't changed my opinion and I don't want any responsibilty, however small, for keeping/putting an idiot in power.
My point, and the point of many respondents here, is that Nick Robinson is guilty of very unbalanced reporting. I have been reading and commenting on his blog for many weeks and made similar comments many times. I've even complained to the BBC Trust and got fobbed off with a standard impersonal answer. Nick is very happy to use strong words when the Tories are in the news, but is very soft on Labour given the mess they are making of everything! All the parties have spin doctors that only serve to make a bad situation worse!
This IS a none story because it has nothing to do with Cameron or the tories. Cameron is being made to look guilty by association. McBride was working for Brown when he was plotting his smear campaign and quite rightly resigned. It doesn't matter how the information was got, it was true! I had a lot of respect for Brown's reaction to this.
I demand balanced and unbiased reporting from our National Broadcaster and its Political Editor!
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If u want REAL political news - not smears - and make no mistake what McBride and the rest were up to were downright slanders and lies - go to Guido - not Liebour or Bias Corp.
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29. At 10:40am on 09 Jul 2009, Mike_Naylor wrote:
Seriously - if a disgraced ex-editor, of the News of the World, is your communications officer - is this really that surprising.
Cameron's whole campaign has been built on leaks
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A bit rich, given that Gordon Brown's career has been built on them:
http://tinyurl.com/6e7anb
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Brown is busy bankrupting the nation to the tune of 20 billions worth of borrowing per month, and we have to put up with this Labour smear campaign against Coulson! They are just trying to get revenge for McBride.
Coulson is no different from and no worse than Alastair Campbell.
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If Coulson is found to be culpable then he will be jettisoned and rightly so. If no worthwhile evidence can be dredged up to implicate him he will be retained because his services are well appreciated. End of story. To listen to Prescott you would think that Cameron has been the one tapping phones. At present these accusations are just that, allegations propagated by a labour leaning newspaper. Let's just wait and see what develops. Nick Robinson himself has said that The Guardian has no solid evidence to back up their claims and they may even find themselves the recipients of a heavy law suit if they are proven to have been too hasty in publishing their information. I have no great love for Rupert Murdoch btw. If his fingers are in this pie he will deserve all he gets!
Max Clifford saying that he fell out with The News of The World over their treatment of Kerry Katona doesn't put him in a particularly good light either. I can't see the point of any celebrities such as this.
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166. At 2:23pm on 09 Jul 2009, extremesense wrote:
Are the Tories quite happy for people to break the law as long as they've got a bit of cash? Very relaxing, yes.
You have evidence of law breaking? Then please hand it over to the police. Otherwise shut up, you sound like a loon.
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184. At 2:51pm on 09 Jul 2009, EuroSider wrote:
"For me this is the U.K.s 'Watergate'."
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Nonsense - are you seriously alledging that the phone tappings were sanctioned by the current head of government?
"How can David Cameron and the Conservative Party possibly support Coulson now?"
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And what has he been found guilty of, exactly?
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Not really sure what Cameron has done wrong. I'm pretty sure 'sleazy, desperate and completely free of any morals' is in the job description for all spin-doctors, isn't it? 'good day to bury bad news' and all that...
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184. At 2:51pm on 09 Jul 2009, EuroSider wrote:
At a time when politicians are trying to convince the voting public that they are righteous and honourable, this story raises its ugly head.
All that it does is to remind us that politics is a dirty business.
After the spin of the Blair government, who can possibly believe anything that the politicians say, do, or promise.
For me this is the U.K.s 'Watergate'.
How can David Cameron and the Conservative Party possibly support Coulson now?
He must go.....and go now !
===
Why, what has he actually done wrong?
And by the way, this story is about News International and possible collusion by the forces of law and order, nothing to do with politics at all.
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That's odd. Just realised a post has been referred. No e-mail from the mods, so I can only guess what may have upset someone. Oh, well.
Main point was that, if Coulson IS found to have been complicit in the unauthorised/illegal tapping into private conversations, he should face whatever justice is coming.
If the case is that the police have discovered wide-spread illegal activity, you'd have expected them to investigate whoever may have been in a position to authorise it during the period covered. If they failed to do so, that's bad. If they did do so and accumulated evidence that Coulson was involved, why haven't they instigated procedings?
No idea. It's not really interesting.
If we are talking about the "judgement" of a potential/actual PM, which seems more relevant:
Cameron hires Coulson (apparently having resigned because he accepted responsibility for actions that occured on his watch he CLAIMS not to have known about),
or
Brown deliberately decides to withdraw the 10p tax band he introduced and, despite massive protests, insists it is forced through to avoid him being seen as having performed a U turn?
Cameron may have made an error about an individual. Brown made an error that affects millions.
I don't like spin doctors. Full stop.
Didn't like Mandelson or Campbell. They were very effective, but helped to distort the way "the media" respond to politics. (The BBC has bever been the same since the Hutton Enquiry.) Not impressed by any of the present bunch.
If politicians can't work out how to "communicate" for themselves they should slink off back to private or public employment (or tend their ducks...) but just retreat from Parliament.
Remind me, how many spin doctors did Churchill need (and how much were they paid)?
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"grandantidote wrote:
75 Mark We
Its a poor editor that does'nt ask where the information came from thats going into his newspaper, another Piers Morgan it would seem.
Sorry about all the spelling mistakes on the other blog Mark[ gollege and the like]."
I totally agree, but then the NotW is a pretty poor paper.
Tabloids seem to work on the theory that they get more in sales from running the stories then they lose from being sued.
And don't worry about spelling mistakes, we all make them :)
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193. At 3:15pm on 09 Jul 2009, duckoff wrote:
David Cameron said "It is wrong for newspapers to breach people's privacy without justification. I mean that is why after all Andy Coulson resigned from the News of the World two-and-a-half years ago.
"Of course I knew about that resignation when I gave him a job.
"But I believe in giving people a second chance and as the director of communications he does an excellent job for the Conservative Party and behaves properly and in an upright way in everything he does."
Does this mean Cameron actually knew that criminal acts had been carried out and he didn't report them?
===
No, and don't be so silly as to suggest otherwise.
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193. At 3:15pm on 09 Jul 2009, duckoff wrote:
David Cameron said "It is wrong for newspapers to breach people's privacy without justification. I mean that is why after all Andy Coulson resigned from the News of the World two-and-a-half years ago.
"Of course I knew about that resignation when I gave him a job.
"But I believe in giving people a second chance and as the director of communications he does an excellent job for the Conservative Party and behaves properly and in an upright way in everything he does."
Does this mean Cameron actually knew that criminal acts had been carried out and he didn't report them?
------
Only to somebody who would jump to a conclusion to support their prejudice.
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"EuroSider wrote:
For me this is the U.K.s 'Watergate'.
How can David Cameron and the Conservative Party possibly support Coulson now?
He must go.....and go now !"
This is nowhere near the UKs Watergate. IF a party leader was using illegal methods like this to destroy a rival it might be on the same level.
The story here seems to be the ex-editor of a tabloid paper who at present appears to have NO direct involvement with the case is now the Tory PR guy.
It is possible that there is more to come on this story, but at the moment there is no indication that he has done anything wrong (apart from not keep a shorter lead on his staff) and he actually resigned as editor when this incident came to light.
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196 excellentcatblogger
This story is big. I hope Nick has his sneakers handy. He might have to start running when the black ops contractors start chasing, lol!
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"duckoff wrote:
Does this mean Cameron actually knew that criminal acts had been carried out and he didn't report them?
If so, is this 'a very proper and upright way' for a potential future prime minister to behave?"
Considering that Coulson resigned because members of his staff broke the law (there is currently NO indication that he was involved or even knew about it until later) then "Yes, I am sure Cameron did know that criminal acts had been carried out"
However, he would have no need to report them as the police already knew about them and the man he hired wasn't directly involved.
Strip out all the party political stuff and what we get is this:
"A manager resigned after it turned out that members of his staff broke the law, however there was no evidence that the manager was aware of this. This manager then went to another company. Some time later it is revealed that the staff broke the law more times then was initially thought. The media then turns it's attention on the person who hired the manager"
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204 sterling-donefor
'Nonsense - are you seriously alledging that the phone tappings were sanctioned by the current head of government?'
The point is, we don't know do we? Because someone instructed the MET and CPS to drop this. Sounds to me that the info gained (on maybe just a single individual) was deemed of greater worth that the crimes committed.
Run, Nick, run!
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201 crowded island
#Coulson is no different from and no worse than Alastair Campbell.
And you have evidence of this I guess or you would'nt say it would you?.
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Shock, horror, the press behaving badly what a surprise. Have not a lot of us been saying this for some time, yet it seems to come as a surprise to some. I really struggle to understand where this calls Camerons judgement in to question or really what it has to do with politics at all.
Coulson resigned from his job at the News Of the World, no charges were brought against him. Was he never supposed to work again in his field expertise. Gosh we give murders a second chance in this Country. I love the fact that its the Guardian Labour leaning newpaper digging up the dirt and Labour taking the moral high ground is just astounding, especially Prescott.
Goodness me, we have bankers who have destroyed our banks, we have a Government printing money to prop up its debt, we have Mcbride smears, an illegal war, MPs expenses, a Government which has brought this Country to its knees by debt, an unelected peer virtually running the Country etc and yet what would call a persons judgment into question is hiring an ex Editor of a Newspaper who has been accused of nothing.
I love Brown pretending he has not been briefed on everything that is going on. Oh give me a break, I smell Mandelson all over this.
If someone wants to listen to conversations made by this boring load of non celebrities and politicians they must be pretty desperate.
Can we now hear something on real politics such as why Brown kept the dreadful FSA as the regulator of the banks in order to bully the BOE to make decisions to suit the Government, so they can keep on spending. Or why knife crime is still continuing to be a problem.
Hmm just makes me wonder where we are going in this Country and what our priorities really are.
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Who has rattled Mike_Naylor's cage? Feast or famine with this person!!
Just like Robinson, during a winter, spring and early summer of dismal and ineffective governance, A story, however tenuous, with an opportunity to attempt to discredit the Conservative party and David Cameron is gleefully seized upon. Rightly or wrongly Coulson resigned from his previous role, guilty or otherwise. The Tory party in general can only aspire to the heights of sleazy spin and smear perfected over the twelve odd previous years by such luminaries as Blair, Campbell, McBride, Draper and others.
With the obvious and frequently partisan Robinson blogs, is the Political Editor of the BBC not in danger of "becoming the story"
How I wish he would pursue Mandelson and the Russian with the same tenacity and vigour George Osborne is subject to. No doubt Osborne will be subject to yet more Robinson bligs in the coming months.
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#171, Anti_Labour wrote:
"This is a cheap revenge shot, coordinated by BBC & Guardian."
- - - -
Like it or not, facts are facts, and these look damning. Stop being party political (your username says it all) and stick to judging the ISSUE. Some of us were just as critical of the MacBride/RedRag episode as we are of this. Turning it into a left/right issue is as pointless as whining that the Telegraph's greater emphasis on Labour during the expenses scandal was "coordinated". It misses the point.
Tribal loyalty just makes people easy to manipulate - something 80% of the commenters to this blog might wish to keep in mind.
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177 yellow belly
Could you vote for a man who employed an ex-pornographer and close associate of Robert Maxwell?
I was'nt aware anyone had been asked to do this, please tell.
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#186 greatHayemaker
David Cameron is relaxed at the fact that his spin-doctor-in-chief presided over a newspaper that allegedly broke the law on a number of occasions so it would be easy to interpret that as him being relaxed at law breaking.
Errrrr, do try to keep up.
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Yawn.
A media story about the media reporting on possible wrong-doings by the media. Re-read the BBC story ignoring any sentence with alleged or claimed in it and that will tell you the worth of this story. When there is something more concrete then report it as news, otherwise it is just tittle-tattle.
What about Afghanistan or the G8 circus?
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Someone has vanished and without a by your leave or thank you!
Most interesting!
Do you ever get the feeling a story is going to turn round and bite someone on the bahoochie?
Mr Prescott has penned an amazingly good letter to the "relaxed"
Mr Cameron in the Guardian.
Some cruel bloggers are asking who helped
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166. At 2:23pm on 09 Jul 2009, extremesense wrote:
David Cameron needs to explain himself.... there's nothing relaxing about the law being broken, unless of course he's decided to position the Tories as party of law and disorder - for the wealthy.
Is that it? Are the Tories quite happy for people to break the law as long as they've got a bit of cash? Very relaxing, yes.
==============================================================
Usually someone has to be proven guilty, and as there is no actual evidence, could you explain which law you're refering to, that has been proven to be broken?
I know that doesn't appease New Labour sensitivities which seem to suggest that we're all guilty of something, but that won't stop you and your like banging on about it will it?
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Mark_WE wrote:-
"A manager resigned after it turned out that members of his staff broke the law, however there was no evidence that the manager was aware of this. This manager then went to another company. Some time later it is revealed that the staff broke the law more times then was initially thought. The media then turns it's attention on the person who hired the manager"
---------------------------------------------
He must have been aware to resign. Stop ducking the question. Did David Cameron know the reason why his Director of Communications resigned from his NOtW job?
He seems to imply he did with the "I believe in giving people a second chance" comment.
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220. At 4:35pm on 09 Jul 2009, extremesense wrote:
#186 greatHayemaker
David Cameron is relaxed at the fact that his spin-doctor-in-chief presided over a newspaper that allegedly broke the law on a number of occasions so it would be easy to interpret that as him being relaxed at law breaking.
Errrrr, do try to keep up.
=====================================
You really don't get it do you?
There is no evidence - If I alledged that you had fiddled your expenses would you immediately quit your job?
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219. At 4:31pm on 09 Jul 2009, grandantidote wrote:
177 yellow belly
Could you vote for a man who employed an ex-pornographer and close associate of Robert Maxwell?
I was'nt aware anyone had been asked to do this, please tell.
----
You aren't aware who Alastair Campbell was, or you don't think that anybody was asked to vote for Tony Blair?
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"grandantidote wrote:
177 yellow belly
Could you vote for a man who employed an ex-pornographer and close associate of Robert Maxwell?
I was'nt aware anyone had been asked to do this, please tell."
According to the wikipedia Alastair Campbell won a "competition run by pornographic magazine Forum" and worked for the Daily Mirror, Hugh Hefner has nothing to worry about!
To refer to him as a pornographer really is a stretch.
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For a change, Cameron has made himself look like a dolt without any help.
However, that is not really the story.
The reality is that the Press and media works opperates in a frankly abhorent way - and we have always known that.
From the worst of stealing information, breaking into houses and phone tapping that has happened over many years, to photographers being ordered to get a picture of a celeb smiling on the day of a funeral, all the way to BBC journalists attributing so-called facts to people who refuse to be named and asking us to swallow it all without question.
My personal limit was reached a couple of years ago when Andrew Neil, quizzing a politian on a TV programme, claimed he had a right to know as a representative of the viewers.
No, Mr Neil, you are not.
And that is the bottom line. In the same way as systemic arrogance within politics lead to the dreadful misuse of the expenses system, so the arrogance of the media means they feel they are above the law.
No, the media should have no more rights, privileges or get-outs than the rest of us.
Remember, the media do not care a damn about whether something is important to the public or not, they only care that the story is as sensational as possible and that they sell as many papers, or get as high as ratings as possible.
And they will do ANYTHING to feed their arrogance.
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I could tell John Prescott why they wanted to listen to his conversations and it is not anything to do with politics. Perhaps the Police just decided it was better not to embarrass him.
Listening to Campbell being all moral just makes you want to squirm in your seat. Wonder if he still remembers Captain Bob who he worked for before he got hired by Blair.
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If the Police are investigating then he has to go..........until such time as there is no case to answer...
Why anyone would want an ex editor if the news of the world in the position he has been given is another story...unless the Conservatives are now going to communicate in pictures.
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My word, this one's brought the Tory trolls out in force!
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222 diabloandco
#Mr Prescott has penned an amazingly good letter to the "relaxed"
Mr Cameron in the Guardian.
Some cruel bloggers are asking who helped
A typical class remark made by typically crass Tory bloggers.
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224. At 4:58pm on 09 Jul 2009, duckoff wrote:
He must have been aware to resign. Stop ducking the question. Did David Cameron know the reason why his Director of Communications resigned from his NOtW job?
He seems to imply he did with the "I believe in giving people a second chance" comment.
------
The reason why Coulson resigned is well documented - he wrote in his resignation letter : "I have decided that the time has come for me to take ultimate responsibility for the events around the Clive Goodman case. As I've said before, his actions were entirely wrong and I deeply regret that they happened on my watch."
If you are implying that there is something more sinister, then you should back it up with evidence, rather than peddle unsubstantiated innuendo.
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This is not news. This is liebour spin. This is al grauniad, al beebezera and zanulabour clubbing together to try to "get" the "evil tories and murdoch.
Al grauniad are using this story to attack News Int. Corp. possibly as
1. Murdoch told Brown he is not supporting Labour at the next election.
2. Brown has a strop -tells Murdoch to get into line
3. Murdoch says "no way, digger"
4. Brown's media attack dogs give damaging story to Grauniad
5. Grauniad eagerly publish said non story
BBC via Toenails have used this story to attack evil tories (c)all BBC journalists.
looks like an organised coordinated attack by the left wing media.
Both al beeb and al grauniad are clearly on some kind of agenda.
But the public seem less than interested in this massive non story.
ALL Journalists have been doing this for years - this is not a news story at all and why has it come out now ?
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Indirectly of course this is a desperate attempt to put David Cameron in a bad light in order to direct a beautiful, warming soft sheen on Brown. It ain't working. This is not a political matter. It could be a breach of privacy police matter but as yet noone knows because they are just media accusations by one newspaper at the moment.
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"duckoff wrote:
He must have been aware to resign. Stop ducking the question. Did David Cameron know the reason why his Director of Communications resigned from his NOtW job?
He seems to imply he did with the "I believe in giving people a second chance" comment."
He didn't have to be aware to resign that is just your assumption. Politicians always call for the person at the top to resign when scandals occur even if they have nothing to do with the problem. The same applies here. At the very least he lost control of his team which is a resigning matter.
And there is only an implication in Cameron's comment if you want to see one (which clearly you do).
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231. At 5:21pm on 09 Jul 2009, Its_an_Outrage wrote:
My word, this one's brought the Tory trolls out in force!
---
Where were you when mike_naylor was in full flow?
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219. At 4:31pm on 09 Jul 2009, grandantidote wrote:
177 yellow belly
"Could you vote for a man who employed an ex-pornographer and close associate of Robert Maxwell?"
I was'nt aware anyone had been asked to do this, please tell.
---
Its Alastair Campbell ("The Riviera Gigolo" to use his non-de plume), presently employed by the Dear Leader.
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To accuse David Cameron of poor judgement for not knowing about the possibility that his Communications Director could have known about the possible tapping of amongst others Boris Johnson's phone is nothing short of preposterous. This is like blaming a wife for poor judgement for not knowing that her husband had a history of wife beating.
Let's all calm down and wait for any salient facts to emerge!
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229 Susan Croft
In spite of your rather rude remarks on another blog and your apparent denial that the Tolpuddle martyrs, Emily Pankhurst and the unions that have brought you as a woman and in fact a working woman no benefits. I will still address you with respect which is something you deny me.
#I could tell John Prescott why they wanted to listen to his conversations and it is not anything to do with politics. Perhaps the Police just decided it was better not to embarrass him.
Please do tell us dear Susan we wait in anticipation of your revelations as does Mr Prescott I imagine.or is it more innuendo.
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duckoff 224
I know that in Politics no one takes responsibility for anything but in the real world the head of an organisation often resigns if his staff have behaved badly even though he may have done nothing wrong himself. This is what happened in this case.
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232. At 5:21pm on 09 Jul 2009, grandantidote wrote:
222 diabloandco
#Mr Prescott has penned an amazingly good letter to the "relaxed"
Mr Cameron in the Guardian.
Some cruel bloggers are asking who helped
A typical class remark made by typically crass Tory bloggers.
--
Oh dear - can't resist playing the 'class card', can we?
Kinnock told us years ago that JP wasn't a working class 'horny-handed son of toil - you've only got to look at his suits to see that'. And how many members of the working class charge black-tie wearers £5-10k to listen to their after-dinner speeches? see: http://tinyurl.com/ndbekg
JP has a history of battling with the language - if you want to extrapolate making fun of that into an attack on the working class, then that is your prerogative, comrade.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
at the Time of the Leo Blair plot.
Mr T Blair wife was close friends of the then editor of the sun.
I have found no other stories about the many PM's familys over the years that have been allowed reached the papers at the time.
Historically they came out later.
There must have been many Kidnapped plots or worse from the IRA and other about the many PM's over the last 100 years or so.
Strangly on the day of the story about the plot 6pm BBC was item1 frank field talking about reform of the CSA (which had been reformed already under Nulabour) no questions were ask from him and the next item was presented.
item 4/5 was the leader of said group defending the image of themselves
when if not plot on the news He would have been attacking the CSA reform etc.
Convient day to bury bad news then
Previosly a story about jack staw and David Blunett was issues to the sun to keep a bad nulabour story off the headline, see C4 dispatches with blunkett when this was revealed some years after the event.
Apparently Jack Straw was swearing down the phone to Dave blunkett about the Sun story
No if Nulabour are prepared to Stiff one of there own to control the media what are they prepared to do to their enemies.
Moderators you can go check these events as they are etched on my mind.
Spin and Smear are Nulabour tools to run our politices and economy etc
its there reason for being.
Would just love to put the full story on here but the mods would not allow it.
As with the Plot where are the charges and court case against Coulson
and more importantly against News International.
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A police inquiry has been ruled out, i would say for reasons that would no doubt implicate many Labour ministers ( just a hunch, before the proof police go after me) so any other news more worthy than this bobbins
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226 sterling donfor
#You aren't aware who Alastair Campbell was, or you don't think that anybody was asked to vote for Tony Blair?
Strangly enough I am quite aware who Alatair Campbell is but I was'nt aware that anyone has been asked to vote for him,
Your second question, are you implying that Tony Blair was a pornographer
and there was me thinking he was a guitar player, just goes to show does'nt it.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Nick Robinson on BBC News claimed that David Cameron was supporting Andy Coulson whatever the extent of his possible crimes and that he was therefore on very thin ground. Never at any stage have I witnessed David cameron saying that he would support his Communications Director whatever the extent of his crimes and I believe Nick should retract his comments. Cameron fervently believes that his man has done no wrong and right now there is is no proof that he has!
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238 DGlazebrook
Oh! you are well informed, but I don't recall anyone being asked to vote for him or am I missing something?.
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#243:
Are you a fly on the wall of David Cameron's office? How can you profess to know his intentions? Do you have a phone tap on him? No you don't so stop making unfounded accusations about his intentions unless you are absolutely certain of your facts! If Coulson is found to be culpable he will be dismissed from his post and a new Comunications Director will be appointed.
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243. At 5:55pm on 09 Jul 2009, Jiminywicket wrote:
#232 Grandantidote this crass stupidity & snobbery will get people nowhere. It is damn insulting, I wonder how many Conservative MP's who had John Prescotts start in life would end up being Deputy Prime Minister.
These morons behaved in exactly the same way as the Tory snobs did to the last Speaker and the fool Quinton Letts christened him "Gorbals Mick" I wonder if the idiot Letts would have reached the status "Gorbal Mick" achieved if they had have shared the same poor start in life as he did.
----
It's not a class thing, or a question of background or privilege. The fact is, John Prescott and Michael Martin were just not very good.
You should remember Eric Varley and Bernard Weatherill - both were labour diehards, both came from humble backgrounds, were extremely competent and had the respect of Tories and Labour alike. In comparison, Prescott and Martin are pygmies.
Crassness is hiding behind 'class', instead of admitting that the reason that Prescott and Martin are derided is because they are just not that impressive or capable.
------
One parting shot, anybody who believes that Coulson did not know what was happening under his watch at the NOW is a fool for believing him.
--------
Like GB didn't know what was going on with Draper?
Cameron will not sack Coulson he has too much dirt on pretty Boy Osborne.
---
Do you have some evidence of this 'dirt'?
Coulson will resign with a golden handshake, Cameron will take fright as soon as he sees the effect this is having on his image and tell the world he is standing by Coulson whilst asking for Coulsons resignation behind closed doors..
----
I recognise you as mystic meg, and claim my £5
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242 sterling donefor
#Oh dear - can't resist playing the 'class card', can we?
#then that is your prerogative, comrade.
John Prescott came from a very poor background and had poor schooling failing his eleven plus he later went to a private college were he graduated then into the merchant navy as a shop steward and waiter and became a unionist then he progressed on to become a politician and a great friend of the late John Smith who thought very highly of him, then deputy prime minister ,a post he held for ten years, he was born in North wales the son of a miner, hardly born with a spoon in his mouth was he, if that was'nt a son of the toil I don't know what is.
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grandantidote 240
I believe you have lost the plot. Get your facts straight, as I am getting very tired of you doing this.
Nothing was mentioned by me on any blog referring to Tolpuddle Martyrs, Emily Pankhurst or Unions. I suggest you go back and check.
You test the patience of Job. You are one of the most obtuse persons I have come across. Try (although I believe it is beyond you) to be contrite for once in your life and apologize.
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Nick
Coulson ,Gilligan and Piers Morgan all in disgrace and yet all in plum jobs, a bit of scandle Nick and you could become a celebrity, Go for it my son!
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252. At 6:38pm on 09 Jul 2009, grandantidote wrote:
John Prescott .... hardly born with a spoon in his mouth was he, if that was'nt a son of the toil I don't know what is.
-------
Kinnock's words, not mine. JP's parents may have been horny-handed sons of toil, but I doubt that Prescott got many callouses from serving pink gins.
Anyway, I thought that new labour had come out of the past and eschewed the 'class prickliness'.
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Of course the press is political, but not supporters of one political party with the exception of the Mail,Telegraph and Mirror.The shifting allegiances of News International does not excuse its illegal surveillance of public figures,or its alleged peddling of information to its political friends.
The press are power brokers,or as Stanley Baldwin put it:"Power without responsibility,the prerogative of the harlot through the ages."
Be angry,change things.As a great Republican statesman said as his party contemplated Nixon`s impeachment.A government of laws and not of men.
The problem in England is there has never been a "Romance of democracy." No Whitman celebrating the frontier as an image of the open society,no Steinbeck as witness to a society moving forward.Even Dickens the liberal reformer, had a fear of the mob, and a popular press in Britain happened fifty years after the USA.
I cannot believe there are voices excusing and justifying the behaviour of News International, even if its power was exerted against just one individual. Have you no pride as citizens?
Bryher
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256. At 7:46pm on 09 Jul 2009, bryhers wrote:
Have you no pride as citizens?
---
No - it just seems to have ebbed away over the last 12 years.
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253 susan croft
#I believe you have lost the plot. Get your facts straight, as I am getting very tired of you doing this.
#Nothing was mentioned by me on any blog referring to Tolpuddle Martyrs, Emily Pankhurst or Unions. I suggest you go back and check.
no one said that you had but I had said to you
People in this country have been fighting for years to get the benefits that you and I enjoy, and to even consider that we should allow others to be prepared to do our work for less would set us back in the workplace
two or three hundred years, the minimum wage is their to protect the people you speak of not to discredit or disadvantage them.
You in your haste to attempt to discredit me replied
#I cannot really be bothered to answer, but would suggest you read things properly and understand what is being said or do not comment.
#The benefits you enjoy you mean, we young people will enjoy very few benefits due to the spending culture of this Government. But hey you have already said you do not care about that as long as you are alright.
My referrence to The Tolpuddle Martyrs, Emily Pankhurst and the unions
was in a effort to make you understand the benefits that I was referring too,not as I understand that you thought benefits awarded by the state, but just to correct you I have never ever said that I do not care as long as I'm alright. never ever!
In these efforts to discredit me you are discreditng yourself with your crass response.
I wont bother you again I would not expect to be addressed by my children or grandchildren in the way you are becoming acustomed to addressing me.
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255 sterling donfor
Anyway, I thought that new labour had come out of the past and eschewed the 'class prickliness'.
you were the one who referred to JPs letter in derogatry terms, implying that he was poorly educated, and lower class, not I.
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259. At 9:33pm on 09 Jul 2009, grandantidote wrote:
255 sterling donfor
Anyway, I thought that new labour had come out of the past and eschewed the 'class prickliness'.
you were the one who referred to JPs letter in derogatry terms,
--- Wrong. please go back and read the original posts, and then show me where I referred to JPs letter in derogatory terms.
implying that he was poorly educated, and lower class, not I.
--- Wrong again - YOU wrote "John Prescott came from a very poor background and had poor schooling "
It seems as though you have been learning your debating skills from watching Gordon Brown on Prime Minister's Question time. That's really not a good model.
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257:
I am addressing questions of personal and political freedom,you are making partisan comments.I regret on your behalf, your inability to rise above political point scoring to the universal issue involved when corporate power oppresses private citizens.It may start there, but eventually its tentacles reach into everything and everybody as in fascist and communist states.Personal freedom is precious,don`t put yourself in the position of defending those who would destroy it.
Best wishes.
Bryher
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260 sterling donefor
Inuendo old chap inuendo.
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What ever happened to the concept of free speech? I also would like to know about the concept of FAIR COMMENT being rather one sided.
Why was my comment at 86 moderated? I considered it fair comment, how did I break House Rules?
In retrospect I believe that I made a fair comment and did not go "off topic", perhaps I will be given an explanation.
Now that Asst. Comm YATES has stated that there is insufficient evidence to reopen this matter, you have tried to cover your first comment. Many other contributers have been far more rough on you than I was but were not moderated, why?
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262. At 10:01pm on 09 Jul 2009, grandantidote wrote:
260 sterling donefor
Inuendo old chap inuendo.
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Instead of evading the argument, please respond to the two 'wrong' points, (if you can).
Any maybe look up the meaning of 'inuendo' ('innuendo', actually, "old chap").
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227. At 5:12pm on 09 Jul 2009, Mark_WE wrote:
"grandantidote wrote:
177 yellow belly
Could you vote for a man who employed an ex-pornographer and close associate of Robert Maxwell?
I was'nt aware anyone had been asked to do this, please tell."
According to the wikipedia Alastair Campbell won a "competition run by pornographic magazine Forum" and worked for the Daily Mirror, Hugh Hefner has nothing to worry about!
To refer to him as a pornographer really is a stretch.
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What else would you call somebody who writes pornography for a pornographic magazine?
"His first job as a writer was penning pornography for Forum magazine from France under the pseudonym the Riviera Gigolo, though that was hardly representative of his output.
His career proper began when he joined the Daily Mirror as a trainee. He rose rapidly until poached, at the age of 29, to join the newly launched Today newspaper. But he collapsed from nervous exhaustion over a "lost weekend" in Easter 1986 and ended up in hospital.
"I kind of left the planet for a while," he told the Observer in January this year. He was later political editor and columnist for the Mirror and Sunday Mirror and, from 1993 to 1995, a columnist for Today."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/aug/29/politics.marketingandpr
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264 stirling donfor
Yes quite aware of the meaning of innuendo and how to spell it we all slip occasionally don't we, well perhaps not you, we'll see.
Mr Prescott has penned an amazingly good letter to the "relaxed"
Mr Cameron in the Guardian.
Some cruel bloggers are asking who helped
Innuendo my friend innuendo or what is the implication of these words?.
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265 yellow belly
I'm not really interested in Alistair Cambell I am only interested in who as asked who to vote for him.
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"yellowbelly1959 wrote:
What else would you call somebody who writes pornography for a pornographic magazine?"
I don't normally correct people's grammer but shouldn't it is "wrote" as I doubt he still does it.
And I wouldn't call a writer who writes a few stories for a pornographic magazine when they are trying to break into journalism a pornographer just as I wouldn't call someone who smoked a few joints at University a drug addict.
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"grandantidote wrote:
265 yellow belly
I'm not really interested in Alistair Cambell I am only interested in who as asked who to vote for him."
Grand I believe the comment was a come back to a comment asking who would vote for Cameron because of his connections to Coulson (i.e. implying who would vote for Blair/Brown because of their connection to Campbell)
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Grandantidote
266: For the second time - I did not write that. You stated that I referred to JP's letter in derogatory terms. Once again - please show me where I did that.
You bizarrely stated that I was "implying that he was poorly educated, and lower class, not I." - which was a complete reversal of the facts. YOU stated that.
So, please go back and respond to 260 properly. If you can't be bothered, then let's stop this discussion now.
267: You seem to be deliberately misinterpreting the question. The original post asked "Could you vote for a man who employed an ex-pornographer and close associate of Robert Maxwell?". It's not difficult: Blair was the employer and Campbell was the employee. Would you argue that Blair didn't ask anybody to vote for him?
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There are a lot of unanswered questions of who what where why
The police seem not to want to go over this again they have come up with there answer of there is no new information
This seems to be that Police only did every closed investigation first time round and settled for the quick result that would satisfy every one without looking too closely at the matter
If it had been a member of the public they would of seized every computer every CD, DVD, every file and any other form media that could hold any information to what they had been up too
If this is so the Police have allot of questions to answer to why they did not look more closely into the matter
As the EDITOR of News of the World I would of thought that he would of wanted to know allot about the scoop of where and how they got the information before it was sent to the print room and any scoop that is likely to bite back would of had to go to the legal department for checking for liability first
This raise allot more questions than anwsers
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270 sterlingdonefor
Yes lets forget it , I took umrage over Diabloandco's remarks, he did'nt respond you did, and it went on from there, it seems then that both you and I agree that John Prescott is more than capable of writing his own letters and remarks of the kind made by Diabloandco concerning John prescott in that vien were indeed out of order.
267 I certainly was misinterpreting the question, your quite right. I had somehow got it into my head that the question being asked was who would vote for Alistiar Campbell. My apologies to all who I may have frustrated over that one.
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268. At 00:05am on 10 Jul 2009, Mark_WE wrote:
"yellowbelly1959 wrote:
What else would you call somebody who writes pornography for a pornographic magazine?"
I don't normally correct people's grammer but shouldn't it is "wrote" as I doubt he still does it.
And I wouldn't call a writer who writes a few stories for a pornographic magazine when they are trying to break into journalism a pornographer just as I wouldn't call someone who smoked a few joints at University a drug addict.
===
I used "writes" as the present tense because I was asking a hypothetical question.
"I don't normally correct people's grammer but shouldn't it is "wrote" as I doubt he still does it."
I don't normally correct people's grammar but shouldn't it be "grammar" and shouldn't it be:
*...but shouldn't it be "wrote" as I doubt he still does it?* not what you wrote, and you omitted a question mark at the end of your sentence.
See how easy it is to pick faults with other people's offerings?
Finally, I would call somebody who smoked a few joints at University a drug user, because that would accurately reflect their situation. Just as somebody who produces pornography is a pornographer.
Noun
pornographer (plural pornographers)
One who is involved in the creation or dissemination of pornography.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pornographer
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Frankly, it is difficult to dispute the notion that the whole of the Establishment in this country is rotten to the core. It has been I believe for centuries but never seemed to be so much as it seems to be right now. It is of course the increasing opportunities available to gather damning material which enhances the revealing of evidence hitherto some would say usefully hidden from society at large. 'Let them eat cake' an epithet most appropriate for modern life as well as an anachronism from past centuries when the people were regarded as not fit to know.
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Why wont the political ninnies on this blog stop trying to score pathetic childish points and actually comment on the fact that a newspaper has been illegally hacking into private and confidential phone calls (well voice mail probably).
Coulson is neither here nor there, just a bit embarrassing for the tories with Labour trying to make capital, just like the tories did over McBride. That doesn't matter. A paper illegally spying on people does.
Nobody should be asking for Coulson to be sacked, or complaining about any of the many random Labour names, they should be asking why the Police aren't investigating this so that the guilty ones are arrested and convicted.
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The man who stands culpable at the heart of this disgraceful situation is Murdoch. A greed driven profit obsessed capitalist who stops at nothing and for nobody or for no cause in his pursuit of business domination.People like him have contrived with their business practices to drive morality,decency and ethical standards right out of the window across the world. Political parties in thrall to the siren call of financial contributions are useless to prevent the onslaught of indedency such people perpetrate upon our societies.
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276. At 11:16pm on 10 Jul 2009, Bassreflections wrote:
The man who stands culpable at the heart of this disgraceful situation is Murdoch. A greed driven profit obsessed capitalist who stops at nothing and for nobody or for no cause in his pursuit of business domination.People like him have contrived with their business practices to drive morality,decency and ethical standards right out of the window across the world. Political parties in thrall to the siren call of financial contributions are useless to prevent the onslaught of indedency such people perpetrate upon our societies.
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But Sky Sports is rather good though, isn't it?
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