Who's planning what cuts?
The NHS Confederation says that the health service will face the most severe and sustained financial shortfall in its history after 2011, leaving the NHS in England facing a real-terms reduction of between £8bn and £10bn.
Yet the new Health Secretary Andy Burnham refuses to say where the cuts will fall.
Meantime the shadow health secretary Andrew Lansley promised that they too would keep health spending rising in real terms but appeared to blurt out Tory plans for cuts elsewhere on the Today programme this morning:
"We are going to increase the resources for the NHS. We are going to increase resources for international development aid. We are going to increase resources for schools. But that does mean over three years after 2011 a 10% reduction in the departmental expenditure limits for other departments. It is a very tough spending requirement indeed."
Now a Conservative party spokesman claims - somewhat implausibly you might think - that what their spokesman was saying was that : "If cuts in the health budget are to be avoided Labour are planning to cut other departments' spending by 10%."
In truth, aren't both Burnham and Lansley guilty of not spelling out the truth about what the huge deficit means?
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Bottom line: It doesn't matter. Neither party can spend tax receipts that don't exist or can't be raised in the Gilt market (and that source of funds is not infinite).
The only question is where the cuts fall and how efficiently public services can be run in future. If the record of the government is evidence of the Labour Party's competence in this regard, frankly it's a shoe-in for the Tories.
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Nick,
You have to start telling the complete story. The IFS estimates that in order to protect its ring-fenced spending (e.g. NHS, Education) then the other departments' public spending will have to be cut by 7%
So the real story is no that Labour will continue to invest (it will cut by 7%) but that the Tories will cut (by, at most, 10%).
The choice to the public will be the EXTENT of cut (7% or 10%). Wait until The Sun gets hold of that one, and we both know which way they will jump.
See you in the pub.
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Just watched PMQs. Again Brown has proven himself to be totally out his depth!! His contempt for PMQs with some of the disgracefully disrespectful things he says is just staggering.
Cameron outfought and outgunned him!! Keep up the good work Dave!
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3
Thats because the only e-mails people send are anti Brown.
Which is in turn because there are only a very few, very blinkered class warriors who still support Brown.
Its time you came to terms with it. If the majority of people disagree with you, it is not THEM who is in the wrong.
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john, you are a troll. Sorry, but it is pretty clear.
The difference between both of these people Nick, is that one has avoided the subject ENTIRELY, the other has admitted that cuts have to be made, and if not in one polace then in another. 'Gordy' won't answer a simple question - 'where is all the money going to come from?' his contempt for PMQs and the country as a whole is staggering.
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"1. At 12:17pm on 10 Jun 2009, johncarrelson wrote:
Just watched PMQs. Again Cameron has proven himself to be totally out his depth!! His contempt for PMQs with some of the disgracefully disrespectful things he says is just staggering.
Gordy outfought and outgunned him!! Keep up the good work Gordy!"
-------------------------------
When???
You watched a different PMQ's to everyone else then! Or do you think that the leader of the OPPOSITION (clue in the title) should NOT be allowed to talk down to the worst Prime Minister in history? Hmmmmmmmm?
Enjoy this labour dictatorship whilst it lasts. The sooner it is over, the better!
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Aren't they only cuts if the tories suggest them?
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"3. At 12:34pm on 10 Jun 2009, johncarrelson wrote:
The Conservative bias of Andrew Neil and Anita Anand is just staggering. Every e-mail they read out is anti-Brown, week after week, after week after week."
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Well, maybe they are only getting about 5 out of a hundred that support labour? After all, only 5% of those eligible to vote decided to vote labour last week (15% of 31%) So reading out email, after email critical of Brown would be an accurate reflection of the utter contempt that the country holds for Brown. Purely as a reaction to the utter contempt that Brown has for this country, I am sure!
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I just wonder where Gordon Brown thinks he is going to get the money from for increasing spending on public services year- on-year.
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Just watched PMQs. Again Brown has proven himself to be totally out his depth!! His contempt for PMQs with some of the disgracefully disrespectful things he says is just staggering.
Cameron outfought and outgunned him!! Keep up the good work Dave!
(Is that OK, Peter?)
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@johncarrelson
Perhaps there are no pro-Brown emails? It would hardly be surprising given he's the worst PM in living history.
As for the cuts, god help us when Browns PFI fiddling comes back to bite us, billions of public sector debt hidden - using the very same accounting trickery that caused the bust - is going to do immeasurable harm to this nation.
Cuts need to be made across the board, and the blame can be squarely laid - any anyone denying this either an outright liar, willfully ignorant or so politically biased they border on the insane - at Browns feet. Over a decade of mismanagement, as Chancellor and as PM, time for him to go before he causes any more damage. Anyone but Brown.
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"The choice to the public will be the EXTENT of cut (7% or 10%). Wait until The Sun gets hold of that one, and we both know which way they will jump."
If those really are the proposed level of cuts, then it comes down to "who can spend the money better?"
Labour's record is diabolical. One example, employing up to five people to change one fluorescent strip light and complete a folder full of paperwork to go with it, meaning a five pounds strip light in a school cost 750 pounds to change!
The Tories has simply GOT to be able to get more for less with that sort of diabolical waste of public money. I am sure that the Tories could EASILY cut current public expenditure by 10% and still get much better public services than labour does now!
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#6:
"Thats because the only e-mails people send are anti Brown."
Unless you are Damian McBride, of course.
Cin cin
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Everyone knows that public spending will have to be cut in order to redress the huge national debt that Labour created. At least the conservatives are admitting to this fact. All we get from Labour is lies and bluster.
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I am guessing that headlines tomorrow about PMQs will read Cameron's Cuts.. right?
Given that Cameron is still failing to address any policy issues of substance, but is continually trying to stir the hornets nest of unfocussed public anger, it would almost be irresponsible if the only conservative financial admission to date was not mentioned.
In many ways I feel this could be a litmus test of journalistic impartiality... I wonder.
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#1 then have an election then the other can answer questions, but PMQ
it all in the tittle QED.
It the PM that has to answer NOT anybody else, its that fundanemtal
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"Yet the new Health Secretary Andy Burnham refuses to say where the cuts will fall."
I noticed that as well.
In two interviews on the subject Andy Burnham talking about the English NHS managed to avoid mentioning "England" or the "English".
Neither BBC interviewer managed to remind him and allowed him to get away with misleading the public into thinking this was across the UK with his weasel words; "our country" or "the country".
Despite his inability to say the "E" word Burnham was talking about England, and this is where the cuts will fall.
We wouldn't want the Scots or the Welsh to have to pay the same as the English for prescriptions now would we? Or for the Scots to pay for hospital parking like the English or to give up preferential access to life saving cancer drugs. Eh?
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The PSBR for this year is GBP 175 billion. The government deficit is expected to be GBP 224 billion. There is a discrepancy between these figures of GBP 49 billion which implies that there are going to be spending cuts, or should I say efficiency savings, in the region of GBP 49 billion this year alone.
Has the government talked to the public about this? Does the government want to talk about this? I very much doubt it.
Now the planners for the NHS have put forward their expectations for the next spending round and have come up with a shortfall. Obviously they expect to be made redundant shortly and want to get their retaliation in first.
Anyone who thinks the public sector can continue in the way it has for the last few years is either a fool or worse.
As for Gordon Brown he is becoming even more irrelevant as each day passes..
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I am in complete despair at how laissez-faire our media and our political commentators are when it comes to Brown simply lying time and time again. That's the only way to put it. No manipulating, not spinning, just plain simple lies. And yet there seems to be no form of redress.
Several times today during his ranting he claimed that the Tories would be cutting services now during the recession. That is a plain lie. We are talking about spending plans from 2011 onwards. So if we had a strong media who held the government to account surely he would be forced to retract that statement?
Not only that but he then claimed that the Tories would be cutting spending by 10% across the board asking how many doctors, nurses, teachers etc. would be cut. He knows that the Tories have ring fenced health, schools and overseas aid spending.
How is he allowed to get away with it?
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1. At 12:17pm on 10 Jun 2009, johncarrelson wrote:
Just watched PMQs. Again Cameron has proven himself to be totally out his depth!! His contempt for PMQs with some of the disgracefully disrespectful things he says is just staggering.
Oh dear... Would that be the same disrespect LABOUR politicians showed with regards the use of the publics tax money ...pot kettle black dear John.
Precisely what disgraceful and disrespecful things did Mr Cameron say ?
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Given the massive amount of debt the country now has there are clearly going to have to be massive cuts in public spending or massive tax rises or both.Those who think you can keep present levels of public spending without tax rises do not understand economics.The problem for both parties,and the country, is that half the electorate is now made up of pensioners and public servants who have a vested interest in high levels of public spending and high taxes.The other half-the wealth creators are unlikely to stand for higher taxes and could end up being taxed out of the country.
In the end it may not be a decision for our government but for the IMF.
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What I found particularly irritatiting about this particular session was once again being told by the Prime Minister that I did not want an election, but wanted HIM to clear up the political system.
I wonder if he checks the online petition system he set up.
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The BBC carried a report on NHS spending from 2011, where the BMA highlighted concerns of spending cuts from the NHS budget due to repayments of the PFI loans that will kick in from this date. It is the first time that I have seen actual figures quoted, namely a loan of GBP 50 Billion for new hospitals built worth GBP 10 Billion.
So even if the NHS budget is increased the PFI repayments will come out of the NHS budget, which leave less to spend on NHS services. Given that the unions amongst others have been dead against PFI projects as being too expensive, surely it is time to stop pursuing this disastrous policy. Everything Brown does seems to involve more and more debt. Oh and the PFI deal for the NHS looks horribly expensive - wonder which bank is profiting out of UK taxpayers misery?
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As I understand it, the last budget by Alastair Darling contained proposed cuts of 7% across the board. The Tories have committed to not cutting spending on Education, the NHS and Overseas Development. In order to meet this commitment, but not exceed the total spending proposed by Alastair Darling, then other departments will obviously need to be cut by more than 7%. Hence the figure of 10% cuts.
If we want to avoid this, then we will either have to borrow more, which is unsustainable, or retract the commitment to protect spending on the above 3 areas. In either case, for Labour to pretend that the choice is no cuts under Labour, or cuts of 10% under the Tories is completely dishonest.
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Correction, I think it is just NHS and DFID that the Tories are proposing to ringfence, not Education
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So, the Tories might be plannng cuts.
For Labour supporters, perhaps this needs explaining. If you 'spend' more than you 'earn', eventually you run out of money. When you 'borrow' money you have to 'pay it back' at some point.
It's Labour's failure to come to terms with this that has lead us to the mess we are in at the moment.
Labour have behaved like some 18 year old with free access to as many store cards as they can lay their hands on. I'm sure for a while, the 18 year old looks great, lots of fancy clothes and able to treat their mates to food and drink. Now the bills have come in.
If cuts are made, it is Labour who are to blame.
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johncarrelson - hahahahaha - great joke - beat of the week! Oh no - make that second best - the first was the pathetic and cowardly labour party allowing Gordy to carry on limping along as PM!
Only for another 11 months though you fools - your time will come - and for the vast majority not a moment too soon.
Call an election!
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What amazes me is that currently this country is in so much debt any budget forecasts are simply poloiticians playing with numbers. We can all play with numbers, rising unemployment, rising personal debt, rising MRSA, rising bankruptcies, rising congestion on the roads, rising air polution, rising climate change, rising red tape, rising unenforcable legislation, rising fuel prices, rising anarky, rising death toll of British Troops, rising teenage pregancies, rising knife crime, rising gun crime, rising family breakdown.....I could go on.....the bottom line is the public have seen through Labour lies and deception. The incoming mantra was 'things can only get better'. The outgoing mantra should be 'Who's sorry now!'
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The first cut has to be of GB then we can move on to tackle the real
job in hand to unwind most of the last 12 years, 13 by the time GB calls it.
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Prudence was Gordon Brown's pet kitten.
When he was a minor tyrant, in his pre-teen years, he chose not to feed Prudence real cat food.
Instead Prudence was fed a diet of old news papers, dandelions and toe nail clippings.
Suffice it to say, Prudence passed on to the feline afterlife at the tender age of 3 weeks.
Remembering the success of Prudence in his younger days, Gordon employed the same philosophy to courtship.
Gordon was quite lonely in his teenage and young adult life, but he never gave up on his philosophy of Prudence, and always carried with him a small pouch of toenail clippings.
The years rolled on relentlessly, he was elected to parliament, became chancellor and always remained true to Prudence.
Rarely a day went bye in number 11 when clip clip clip was not heard.
Year after year of underfunding and higher taxation allowed Gordon to keep his pouch full.
Gordon longed for more, his gaze fixed upon the seat of his long time ally Tony. That was the seat he new he would be comfortable in.
After many years of experience and Prudence, Gordon invited his friend Tony for a meal at number 11.
Of course we know the rest. Gordon's idea of Prudence was put into practice and this led to Tony's loss of appetite to remain at number 10.
Due to the economic crisis, Prudence couldn't continue.
Regardless who is in office further cuts are required if we are to restore Prudence to it's rightful position in government policy.
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carrelson @3:
That's because the vast majority of e-mails are indeed anti Brown week after week after week! Wake up and smell the coffee!
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Nick, you are quite right: neither lot will honestly answer (just before an election) about cuts which will occur after the election.
If they won't be honest then I think you should - repeatedly - report that they are not being honest, and allow the viewers to draw their own conclusions.
Keep at them: do a Paxman!
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#24 I do not think he does as I have one from 6 months ago and still have not got an answer, ie a response not expecting an answer of substance though
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carrelson @ 1:
You say that Gordy outgunned and outfought David Cameron @ PMQs. In your dreams old son! The main thrust of his tirade was that The Oppsition would make cuts while he would invest. Remember that the background of this is that we are in debt to the tune of a trillion and a half pounds.
At the same time as the projected shortfall of 8 billion pounds in The NHS budget for 2011 was being announced Gordon Brown was jumping all over Andrew Lansley for daring to say that there would have to be cuts in other areas if Health and Education were ring fenced. At least The Conservatives are admitting that such cuts need to be made. The Government are still in denial of the fact that their cuts will have to follow a similar pattern. Perhaps they're moving forward on the basis that they won't be in power and will therefore not need to be in a position where they are obliged to be more prudent with their spending. As Nick Robinson said at some stage both main parties will have to face the sticky question of where the cuts will have to made and come clean about them. It's now in the open. The Opposition have at least made a start.
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englandrise you do understand that Scotland gets a block grant and spends it on what it wishes?
The fact Scotland spends more on the NHS (doesnt get anywhere near VFM IMO) than England also means we spend less on things like roads. We have the worst roads in the UK officially.
This "Scotland spends more on this...." rubbish us pointless as we spend more on some things and less on others.
The Scottish block grant will reflect the cuts and whoever is in charge in Scotland at the time will have to face the same problems. They will have to save money from somewhere.
UK Plc has been hemmoraging money for far too long and weve wasted the good years thanks to Brown and Blair. In Scotland the Public sector which was too big anyway has grown even bigger - what a waste.
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Nick,
I've worked in the NHS & as I'm sure you can guess, the amount of wastage & messy organisation is phenomenal. If you don't believe me, you should see if you can find out what a library of deceased patient casenotes looks like. Then, refer yourself to an entire records library being kept organised by perhaps three or four people (& a similar number to disorganise it, on behalf of new patients) for over 1/4 million people, whilst the rest of the records staff, perhaps another 20 or 30, are seemingly doing nothing more than punching stats into a database, all day - & on higher pay.
Public sector health spending doesn't need to rise or remain the same, what needs to happen is for a change in mindset. Cuts should be welcomed as a kick up the pants for softheaded management. About ten years ago, my local hospital spent about £1m on a new porch. Meanwhile, on the side of the very same building, within a hundred feet of the construction job, was a fundraising 'thermometer' banner charting the progress towards raising another £1m for a CT scanner. Couldn't the porch have waited?
Anything which is non-emergency or non-terminal should, automatically, be referred to the private sector. I mean, I got absolutely fed up with dealing with drunks in A&E, & people who came in with slightly cut fingers. A&E should be there to deal with things such as cardiac & respiratory arrests, strokes, RTAs, stabilising broken limbs & through-body wounds, only, really. At the very least, for suturing large gashes. Though, while I was there, everyone, from anywhere, with anything even slightly wrong, was expected to welcomed in. So, there was the eternal wait for those who had been triaged to the bottom of the heap, for having nothing seriously wrong - & that's what ruins the waiting time stats.
The NHS should get used to it's shortfall, if it can't learn to correctly manage what it's been given - by taking away from others, no less.
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The harsh green shoots of reality begin to appear.
Reality has yet to make an appearance in cabinet, it being situated on a limb of the Great British oak!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Even Brown will cut spending if he gets into the next government via a coalition with the libdems (mark my words re the libdems, this is the new labour strategy). The OECD estimates the structural budget deficit at 100 billion pounds per annum. This is the structural deficit, i.e. the estimate is for normalised growth and unemployment and tax revenues, so it assumes some recovery. If Brown does not cut the deficit after the summer of 2010, gilt yiels will rise to 10% and higher. Indeed, Brown has already planned spending cuts. The april 2009 budget contains cuts in investment from 2010 onwards.
Re the OECD estimate: it's from a trusted source:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/rogerbootle/5469884/Lets-have-a-five-year-public-spending-freeze-to-kill-off-big-government.html
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#19 Englandrise,
You should go and do a bit of homework before you come on moaning about devolution...There are hospital parking charges in Scotland, and the Scottish Gov decided to phase out prescription charges over a period of years not automatically, which is quite a sensible way to do it I would have thought, so as not to take a massive hit in the health budget straight away. Maybe some joined up thinking at westminster might get you the same results. You should take a wee trip north of the border sometime you might like it so much you'd actually want to stay.....
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"In truth, aren't both Burnham and Lansley guilty of not spelling out the truth about what the huge deficit means?"
Of course both of them are guilty of lying to us; isn't that what politicians are for?
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It is really a bit of a non argument - cuts are coming, regardless of wether Brown or Cameron are at the helm at the time.
Its not who, its how much.
As a certain meerkat might remark... simples!
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OK, so the great British public - sadly unable to analyse or grasp the truly horrific looming disaster that is Brown's economic genius (for this blame our education system as much as anything else) - vote in a Labour Government in 2010.
I think that there is a real possibility of this happening: Brown is obsessed with power and is cunning to the point of being a bare-faced liar; Cameron fails too often to land good punches, still less a knockout blow.
From 2010 onwards, with Labour in Government, Brown's economic genius will swiftly convert into a big, boomerang-shaped clunking fist. The nightmare that is Brown's continuing obsession with spending and, moreover, wasting hugely more sums of money than he can ever possibly tax or borrow will result in the inevitable collapse of the UK's socio-economic stability. The first signs pop up now and then already.
At that point it may, perhaps, dawn on the citizens of the UK that they have had enough of Brown's incompetent, cynical and deceitful style of government. However, I fear that by then the damage to our way of life - already disintegrating rapidly after 12 years of shysters-at-the-helm - may be so bad that the term 'holocaust' comes to mind.
If this scenario comes to pass then, of course, the British people will get all they deserve.
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2010 - Reckless and irresponsible media get their puppets (the electorate) to kick a very good PM out of office and he is replaced with their new darling David Cameron. Cue several magazine exclusives and documentaries on our new leader. Wow, what a guy he is!
2011 - Cuts begin and services suffer. Media say nothing as does the airhead electorate as they're getting their magazine exclusives on the new PM's fitness regime and dietary habits, plus an "Inside Downing Street" documentary which millions tune in for. Wow, what a guy this Cameron is! Wow, he even washes the dishes, that's gotta make him one hell of a PM!
2012 - Cuts take ahold and services deteriorate even further. Stories in paper about wards, crime, etc but they're banished to Page 34 as our fearless leader talks exclusively to the media about his love life and what makes him tick. "Behind the scenes at 10DS" is one of the best watched shows of the year. Wow, what a guy he is!
2013 - Economy starting to suffer and quality of services are appalling. Cuts put millions under the poverty line but our heroic leader tells us, "Blame Labour for all that!!". "On holiday with the Camerons" is voted best TV program of the year. Wow, what a guy he is!
2014 - People start losing jobs, recession comes in and media goes back to doing journalism. Media suddenly think, "did we really get rid of that effective, pragmatic and hard-working dour Scotsman for these lot? What have we done?". Stories come out on cabinet members involvement in cash-for-honors, bribes and expenses fiddling, plus some other somewhat salacious activities. Joe public says, "This would never happen under Labour. The government before this was brilliant. We love that Gordon Brown guy and his replacement as PLP leader would make a great PM. I'm getting sick of all this Cameron guy's lies and spin"
2015 - Most lightweight PM ever in office gets booted out and Labour leader Peter Mandelson puts the good guys back in office. Hooray!!!! The Country Is Saved!!!
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Nick's blog is pertinent coming on the day that Age Concern issue a report condemning the lack of care for the elderly who save the NHS millions by staying in their own homes but get no help with basic things such as getting up and dressed.
This aspect of care falls, god knows why' on local authorities who are , and have been for a long time, unable to deliver.They farm it out to the lowest tendering agency. And the pay peanuts equation comes into operation.
I speak to an NHS nurse on a daily basis and they are appalled at the dropping standards and she and all her colleagues want out.
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#19 - Englandrise- the fact that the Scottish Government & Welsh Assembly devolved powers are better at running their affairs usually with 1 hand tied behind their backs in order to deliver all the things you whinge about says just as much about how good they are as it does about how crap Westminster is.
the sooner you do indeed rise ,the better.
#37 trimmtrab - correct the public sector in scotland is way to big ,but , that is caused by pen pushers,managers,auditors, quango's etc and is not caused by front line staff who actually deal with the public who are becoming as rare as hen's teeth , or as rare as politicians who tell the truth!
Sid
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Any fool can see there will need to be cuts. Brown may choose not to admit it, but surely he realises.
However, he is instead busy talking about electoral and constitutional reform, and suggesting this is needed because of the expenses scandal. Huh? HUH? Hello... wakey wakey Mr Brown
I'll spell it out really simply:
- MP code of conduct and ethics is the solution to MPs expenses, and issues over integrity. That's already been announced.
- Electoral and constitutional reform... not a fix for the expenses issue.
Surely he can't be trying to push for electoral reform in the wake of a bad election showing and trying to say the pubilc want it because of the expenses scandal? Can he?
The public just want honesty - about reform, about policy, about cuts, about everything. Why can't Gordon Brown give us the honest truth about public spending cuts.
#2 obanggang got it spot on - we all know there'll be cuts. The tories have already said there will be, but they don't equate spending and services.
A lot of nonsense gets spouted about cuts, so here's an explanation I think helps:
If you go into a supermarket, and see 10% off bread, do you think that means you'll get 10% fewer slices? Of course not. The price is cut but what you get is the same.
In the same way, you can cut public spending by 10% and not cut services by anything like that much. It's about spending your money wisely. The tories are already talking about doing this.
Labour just say we'll keep growing spending in real terms. That's plain irresponsible - we don't want more taxpayers' money thrown at services, with no guarantee of a corresponding increase in delivery, and we can't afford it anyway. Stop talking about how much you'll spend, and start talking about how much you'll deliver. This I believe is the essence of the tory message on public spending.
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johncarrelson 1
You must have been watching a different PMQs to me. All I saw was a PM who constantly tells untruths to get himself out of answering questions.
You know rhetoric is all very well, however I have noticed you have not addressed any of the serious arguments that people have responded with to your posts, preferring instead to come out with Labour spin.
Perhaps if you want to be taken seriously you should present proper reasons why people should still vote Labour and answer some of the outstanding questions you have been asked.
Andrew Neil is an excellent political reporter and does not fall on one side or the other.
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We need come up with ideas to have a healthier population, this would reduce NHS spend. So smoking, pollution and bad diet are big drivers. We know on smoking it's increase cost and restrict to fewer locations.
Cars & lorry pollution needs more control and more electric trains. Need a much more positive strategy than Hilary Benn's. His idea is, as long as we are no worse that others it's okay; oh and by the way the unpopulated parts of country have great air quality. Quote, he says 24 out of 27 members of the EU along with UK are in breach of the standards and that most of the landmass of Britain does meet the air quality requirements; so basically a do nothing strategy
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Gordon Brown looks more like 'Sunny Jim' Callaghan by the day - waiting for 'something to turn-up' as the concrete wall (the general election) looms ever closer. Frank Field is correct, if the MPs don't do anything then they deserve all they get. The final electoral car-crash should be quite something to watch.
Everyone knows that no party can now promise increased spending because of the colossal and ever-growing public debt, which becomes increasingly difficult to finance. The next government of whatever stripe will either make deep cuts voluntarily or be forced to by the IMF.
Forget the debate about the fag-end of this 'New Labour Project', the real political debate is about the socio-economic/political landscape emerging in the wake of the collapse of the Thatcher/Blair free-market everlasting growth model, and how to clear away the debris of the fallen economic structure without making matters worse.
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#46
.....and then he woke up.
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Maybe the labour claim not to cut TOTAL government outlays INCLUDING INTEREST is true. But, as yields required by investors to buy gilts will go up as the credibility of the UK government wanes further (remember that rating agency comment the other day), the amount that can be used for public sector wages, benefits and investments will shrink. Perhaps this is what labour allude to when they say they will not cut government spending.
Remember, in a few years the ratio of government spending over private spending will go above 100% for the first time since 1945. Brown will pretend it is all sustainable. Gilt investors will very likely not. Note that foreign investors have been net sellers of gilts in recent months with the only big buyer in the market the Bank of England, UK's off-balance sheet vehicle that reminds me of Enron's accounting tricks.
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46. At 1:50pm on 10 Jun 2009, johncarrelson wrote:
John old boy you don't happen to go by the name of Mandy in labour hq by any chance ?
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The inevitable cuts in public expenditure will ultimately be defined and identified by the vast army of civil servants who are payed inordinate amounts of money to provide the advice. They will, of course, have made sure that their particular province has been exempted from consideration in advance.
Britain is overmanaged, over-regulated and over-staffed. But what the hell are the chances of correcting that all the time that those who are surplus to requirements are making the judgements?
I have recently been told that there is a waiting time of 9 weeks for a pension forecast which should be a simple function of computing. Benefits claims are taking up to 7 weeks to resolve. Bed managers in hospitals - a totally unnecessary function if ever I encountered one - are being overruled by clinical staff on a regular basis. I could go on endlessly. The bottom line is that government has become so overpopulated with people who are paid to do unnecessary and inappropriate work that there are insufficient resources available for those at the sharp end to get on with it.
The problem is what on earth you do with thousands of pen-pushers who are qualified only to push pens.
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There seems to be a loony in a tinfoil hat peddling theories about some form of media conspiracy to get the Tories into power.
I guess if that is easier for you to accept than an incompetent government, we should leave you to your fantasy.
Enjoy.
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# 46 johncarrelson
You would appear to be one of those members of the public referred to in my post # 45 who has failed to grasp the almost incomprehensible levels of public sector debt that Gordon Brown has stoked up after 12 years in power and which, one way or another, must be both serviced and paid down.
The point you seem to be missing is that Gordon Brown is oblivious to the now-critical need to deal with the UK's unsustainable spending plans. Gordon Brown masterminded the situation we're now in, ie he has masterminded the UK's road to bankruptcy and, bizarrely, seems proud of his proposals to march us on down that road. There is no other way to look at this. If we keep on going the way we are, government departments and all the other unelected hangers-on associated with government administration will simply run out cash: insufficient tax receipts and no lenders to government will guarantee this eventuality. I suppose we could go on and on printing money; don't put that past Gordon either. A man of your calibre will know what happens when governments print money indefinitely.
So, yes, a Conservative government must and will cut public spending (they'll get around to telling us about it eventually). Vote in Brown and the UK economy will take on a life of its own, swiftly followed by life according to the IMF. Gordon Brown created the mess we're in; he's absolutely the last man on earth to have either the intention or the capability to get us out of it.
All Labour governments end this way; they run out of money. If you spend years deceitfully ripping cash from the wealth-creating sector of the economy, borrowing more money than you can ever service or repay and then dump the proceeds unconditionally in the consuming (ie public) sector of the economy then eventually you, er, run out of money. It's simple economics really, but sadly not quite within Gordon Brown's intellectual grasp. Socialists have never figured this one out.
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46. At 1:50pm on 10 Jun 2009, johncarrelson wrote:
2010 - Reckless and irresponsible media get their puppets (the electorate) to kick a very good PM out of office and he is replaced with their new darling David Cameron. Cue several magazine exclusives and documentaries on our new leader. Wow, what a guy he is!
2011 - Cuts begin and services suffer.
.
.
.
2015 - Most lightweight PM ever in office gets booted out and Labour leader Peter Mandelson puts the good guys back in office. Hooray!!!! The Country Is Saved!!!
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2016 - Labour start to screw it all up again, just like last time.
The fact that you feel you can sit there and write such garbage about a possible future government considering how we got into this mess is staggering.
If it wasn't for your pathetic labour government, then the next government might actually have a country to lead that wasn't bankrupt (that's financially and morally).
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#51 - lixiescot:
"We need come up with ideas to have a healthier population, this would reduce NHS spend. So smoking, pollution and bad diet are big drivers. We know on smoking it's increase cost and restrict to fewer locations".
This is absolutely typical of the kind of simplification which throws everything out of kilter. The people who are costing the NHS billions because of smoking related diseases are not simply going to live forever and never require the services of the NHS. The chances are that they will require the services of the pension service for a good deal longer.
I have no brief for smokers but it really is time to stop taking statistics in isolation to make a political case. Has it not occured to you that all the money spent on this number crunching, if redirected to front line care, would have been far better spent?
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Shameful post, Nick. You know full well cuts and tax rises are coming no matter who is elected to government next time. Again, you spin against the Conservatives and let Labour off the hook. What the hell is going on at the BBC that they tolerate this? I'm not even a Tory supporter, but your 'somewhat implausibly you might think' twist is an embarassment to read. Don't you realise that despite Labour activists and pay-to-post'ers calling you 'Tory-boy' to muddy the waters, many here can see right through you?
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# 54 - good analogy - Bank of England as Brown's off-balance sheet SIV. Brown really LOVES deception in all its forms, perhaps thats behind the his apparent rapproachment with Mandelson.
The more reality is exposed, the more Brown's whole economic 'miracle' resembles a giant Ponzi Scheme - a scheme he is desperate to prevent from unravelling. Literally ANY TRICK is now employed to keep the wheels on Brown's borrowing machine: fake money; fake growth through QE; fake promises to 'change his style'; fake recovery, fake everything.
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#50 croftie
Oh! How wonderful people are who agree with you. Andrew Neil, David Cameron, Gideon Osborn. I must be blind not to be able to see the qualities these people bring to the art of politics. Do I realy not see that given the history of the Tory party, that I, and all working people will be at the forefront of their thinking.
But then, I remember reading the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists, and am reminded what life was like for the worker in the building trade, just one hundred years ago. Then I think of the changes that have taken place as Labour governments took power and the pressure applied by Labour in opposition, during the years between then and now, and think, would they have happened if those who had power were left unchallenged?
I come to the conclusion they would not. We would still be living in Muggsborough. There are many things that need to be done in changing a capitalist system that has gradually increased it's grip on us all over eight hundred years. It takes time, but we are changing things piece by piece. What holds us up, are those who are so afraid of change, they cling onto the symbols of the status quo, either because they are doing well enough or, have a dream that they will join those that take more than they give.
What these people don't see is that the benefits that we have acrued over these last one hundred years are to all our benefit. The same will apply to the benefits we are yet to develop, they will be to everyone's good. I am suprised that on these blogs there have been no references to the Reith Lectures, (apart from mine of course), where an alternative veiw of our interaction with society is being descibed. Now, if anyone has anything to say about Professor Sandels' veiw, this would be a good place to voice them.
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6 - greatHayemaker "If the majority of people disagree with you, it is not THEM who is in the wrong"
Hey, I'm with you in the government disillusionment and have been wishing for a change for many many years - when Labour came into power I was amazingly skeptical then and feel vindicated since.
But your argument is, frankly, absolute tosh. A majority movement in favour of (or against) something has absolutely no bearing on whether it is right or wrong. Always remember that people are stupid.
Oh, and people rarely voluntarily make contact to praise someone (try it - you'd be amazed how suprised people are). Unfortunately for the incument PM and governing party even if they were to write in and praise they would still be a minority.
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The planned increases in overall GVN spending that Brown read out at PMQ's actually equate to a public spending CUT in real terms. Now add in the increased debt repayments (8% in 2011 and rising) + higher welfare bills (does any body dispute that Unemployment is set to continue rising)and the fact that demand and inflation in the NHS is above the nominal national inflation target of 2% p.a & you can see where Andrew Lanley has got his 10% cut in discresionary spending from.
If anything the Tory Health minister probably underestimates the reality and as for Brown - to imply that there will be no cuts under labour is a complete and utter joke. I hope the press crucify him for this piece of fiction.
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Whoever gets into Government next time will have to make cuts in our services. Government debt is such that this is the only possible outcome. We are adding to this debt everyday as less tax comes in, unemployment rises, so benefit payments go up. Our Government finances were in a mess even before this recession started.
The question will be at the next election whether Labour voters are realistic enough to understand that cuts have to be made. Judging by johncarrelson and Grandantidote maybe they will not, they seem to think we can borrow and spend for ever. As the Government is still increasing the public sector in spite of recession to buy votes the situation will be far worse by the time of the next election. That is why I feel a General Election should happen now to try and start reform.
Hopefully the public will see who has caused the Government debt with their spend, spend, spend policies and that the necessary reforms to the NHS etc that should have happened over the last 12 years were not undertaken by Labour. Also that very little improvement has resulted in our services for all the money spent. The question will then be who is most likely to spend the money they will have wisely, undoubtably this is the Conservatives as Labours record speaks for itself.
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No50 SusanCroft
I note from one of you recent contributions that apart from being a political scientist you have an acute understanding of human psychology. Could you let me know if you have had any of your work published in order that I can add it to my library.
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@ 28. AndyC555.
Very simple and totally 100% correct. Brown is going crazy on the countries credit card trying to "buy some temporary green shoots" in time for the election. After the election, the bill falls on the mat and the repayments are due. WHO picks up the tab?
ALL OF US TAXPAYERS!
How many men does it take to change a light-bulb? Under a labour Government it is 5. One to write out the risk assessment, two to hold the ladder, one to change the bulb and one to monitor that health and safety regulations have been observed.
OH I WISH THAT WAS NOT TRUE!
If Cameron scraps the ludicrous multiple layers of politically correct red tape, then he could get us MUCH more services at a small fraction of the price.
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Billions of our pounds will have to go to pay the interest on the money borrowed to fund Brown's debtridden government.
If he hadn't messed things up in the first place there wouldn't have to be public service cuts and tax rises.
No one can be so niaive as to think Brown is investing in the public services.
Only today we find out he is cutting back all over the shop but still calls it investing.
He's made sure our investments have gone down the tubes and that's where his investments are going. Into the banks and down the tubes.
BUT it's not his money it's ours and our childrens and grandchildrens.
It seems we have two alternatives. Brown continuing to lead us all down the garden path to oblivion or reality under the Tories.
Whichever we choose it will still mean years of misery ahead.
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"44. At 1:46pm on 10 Jun 2009, planting_seeds wrote:
It is really a bit of a non argument - cuts are coming, regardless of wether Brown or Cameron are at the helm at the time.
Its not who, its how much.
As a certain meerkat might remark... simples!"
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It's not how much, it is HOW IS IT SPENT?
Would you rather a fluorescent strip light in a school hall cost 750 pounds to replace or 10 pounds?
Get some common sense and efficiency into spending and we could save a fortune from the MASSIVE amounts of waist we are subjected to.
SIMPLES, but still way above the heads of labour!
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nick
Labour get a smack in the eye from the electorate, Gordon says Ok well dont worry about it we'll just carry on as before, expenses scandal oh! forget that, people didnt turn out to vote well thats up to them we'll just carry on and pretend that nothing needs to change, Tories slag off Labour saying even with these things staring you in the face you've done nothing to clear things up.
Thats one scenario, Labour gets a smack in the eye from the electorate,Gordon has a reshuffle and has a meeting to discuss why all these electors didn't turn up in any great numbers for any party,they decide that the house of commons has obviously got to buck its ideas up, we are going to sort out the expense problem and make everyone accountable with a independet committee so that its fair to everyone all parties invited to part take. Lets change the voting system as many MPs for years have been asking for to make it fairer on all parties, lets also get this house of lords sorted out at the same time, something the people have wanted for years. In the meanwhile we will carry on handling the economy and trying to keep as many people in jobs as possible.
Tories slag off Labour saying even with these things staring you in the face you've done nothing to clear things up.
Gordon has to ignore the Tories whatever he does for the country they will slag him off particularly the manic bunch on here.
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46 - johncarrelson
Try changing "Brown" for "Major", "Cameron" for "Blair" and making the dates a little earlier and I'm with you.
The differences between Cameron & Blair - no idea as yet.
The differences between Brown & Major? Major was a man who faced and confronted his critics, appreciated he AND those around him needed to work together for the country, did not cling to power til the last possible moment, achieved a mandate from the British Public (albeit not initially) and left the economy and public finances in what would be described as "decent shape" in comparison to the incumbent
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A couple of posts here read like press releases, rather than personal opinions.
Just out of interest. What's the BBC's policy on declarations of interest? I mean if someone has a job at one of the political parties and doesn't declare it when they post, does the BBC do anything, or is that ok?
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Let's be clear. The tax take will not be what they are predicting for any period for many years to come. Also the tories have no clue of the damage in the treasury until they get in and view what the state of the books is. Knowing Gordon he has hidden a lot of the devastation and this will need to be resolved.
We can attract investment into the country and he proudly explained the 5000 jobs - but wouldn't those jobs come anyway under a tory government as business is allowed to flow into the country?
He treats us like fools, doesn't answer questions and clearly plays with the numbers to suit his own political message. Tragically the Labour party didn't have the nerve to get rid of him so we have to put up with him until next year.
Roll on May!
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This is another non story from Nu Labour Nick.
The truth is it will either be 7% or 10% - savage cuts will be needed as we have no money ( thanks to Gordon ).
The NHS has swallowed vast amounts of public money for very little improvement over the past 10 years and please god the debate will move on from these facile comments regarding depths of cuts to how to make it
- consumer facing and driven
- efficient
- making doctors / managers responsible for their mistakes ( rather than being allowed to say sorry and go straight back to the golf course )
- making GP's do something for the vast amounts of extra money they are now paid
- less beaurocratic
It needs to actually give a s**t about the poor patients who have no choice but to use it.
Every other area of the country faces these pressures - it is now time the NHS did to.
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50 susan croft
Perhaps if you want to be taken seriously you should present proper reasons why people should vote conservative, I've yet to see you give one good sound reason why we should trust the nasty party, dont give us a load of gobblygook in the same way as flame patricia does she hasn't got a original thought in her head, just tell us what their going to do or even better tell us what they would have done,had they have been in power and God forbid if they ever get in power again, Cameron on his best day will never be as good a politician as Gordon Brown on his worst day, so were's his inspiration going to come from.
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There is, at last, some growing efficiency in the both education and NHS. Some, but growing from a low base: there is more that can be achieved.
After all the hurried NHS investments in staff, hospitals and equipment from 2000 to 2007 that was mostly to catch up on the under-investment in the previous 20 years, progress on productivity and delegating care to GPs is under way. It ought to be possible to achieve 3+% pa efficiency savings that will enable health care for the growing numbers of elderly to rise, without requiring large increases in real expenditures. The cost of many treatments is falling - not rising as is often advertised.
As for schools & colleges, the main struggle is to raise standards through improved teaching methods. Again, because of recent investments, most of those needed improvements should be attainable from within exisitng resources.
All of which suggests that continued focus on efficiency and measured resource allocations will enable the volume and quality of public services to rise faster than spending.
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I see that Gordon Brown has once again decided to hide behind the slogan "Tory cuts". Cuts in public expenditure are coming our way because Gordon Brown wasted so much money during his 10 years as chancellor that this country will soon have upwards of 1 trillion of debt to repay. The fact that he will continue borrowing on a reckless scale in the short term so spending reductions can be delayed until after the election does not mean that the party that has to follow on and clean up his mess is the party responsible for these reductions. But I am sure he and his supporters will continue to spout off this nonsense and the media will no doubt continue to give him substantial airtime to do so with very limited opporttunity for the opposition to refute his claims.
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Nick,
You are probably correct - both Labour and Conservatives are both guilty regarding not spelling out the truth with respect cuts.
Gordon Brown, however, seems happy to mislead parliament. Now that is far more serious. Shouldn't Brown be summoned to the house to correct his statements on spending growth?
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Gordon Brown is the most deceitful and dishonest man on the planet. Why does anyone take any notice of anything he says?
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3 johncarrelson
You complain that Andrew Neil only reads out Anit-Brown e-mails each week.
This diagram might help you understand why they mainly receive anti-Brown e-mails:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/elections/local_council/09/map/html/map.stm
Did you see any red blobs on that map representing areas where Gordon is popular?
P.S. You may also like to know that Gordon is misleading you with respect Labour spending plans. This link shows you the year on year cuts Labour plans:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/3687378/the-truth-behind-that-10-percent-cut.thtml
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Nice to see that John Carrelson thinks that Gordon Brown is an effective and pragmatic leader.
So effective that he managed to undo sixty years work paying back the American war loan in eighteen months and land us with the biggest national debt in history.
So pragmatic he wrestled supervision of the banking system from the Bank of England against the wishes of the Governor, overturned 300 years of history and within a decade was presiding over the biggest banking bust in the history of the UK.
So much a leader that he can't even choose his own members of cabinet without the threat of revolt and resignation and is forced into apolgising for the worst election result in the history of the labour arty.
An effective and pragmatic leader indeed.
Good luck.
You are welcome to him.
Call an election.
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After Mondays PLP meeting and the promise of the latest New Gordon at PMQs today, he looked pretty much like the same old Gordon to me.
Nothing has changed, or will change - no matter how much Mandy tries to show otherwise, the bottom line is we are who we are .......
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Tell the TRUTH - Liebour and Brown Bias Corp CENSOR U - tell LIES and it is OK for both. WHAT a mess this lot have reduced a once great country to in 11 years - invaders and Hitler could not do it BUT Liebour have.
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"Perhaps if you want to be taken seriously you should present proper reasons why people should vote conservative, I've yet to see you give one good sound reason why we should trust the nasty party, dont give us a load of gobblygook in the same way as flame patricia does she hasn't got a original thought in her head, just tell us what their going to do or even better tell us what they would have done,had they have been in power and God forbid if they ever get in power again, Cameron on his best day will never be as good a politician as Gordon Brown on his worst day, so were's his inspiration going to come from."
One reason - The Tories will cut public spending. That one alone will do for me.
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76. At 3:02pm on 10 Jun 2009, grandantidote wrote:
50 susan croft
Perhaps if you want to be taken seriously you should present proper reasons why people should vote conservative, I've yet to see you give one good sound reason why we should trust the nasty party, dont give us a load of gobblygook in the same way as flame patricia does she hasn't got a original thought in her head, just tell us what their going to do or even better tell us what they would have done,had they have been in power and God forbid if they ever get in power again, Cameron on his best day will never be as good a politician as Gordon Brown on his worst day, so were's his inspiration going to come from.
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I have read many of Susan's posts on here and frankly she has given you ample reasoned argument and has eloquently put her case across many many times ..Either you don't read them properly or you choose not to.
It is indeed funny how when Labour and their supporters know they face almost certain death at the next election, they resort to petty personal insults.
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Brown still thinks he can spend his way out of a recession. Yes, he wants to "invest" in services, but where will this money come from?
More borrow, borrow, borrow.
Out of money? Don't cut your costs, just print more!
If you are in debt then you spend less.
I think it's due to mis-management that we are in this situation in the first place. And he now goes on about all the things he is doing to tackle the recession that he had a part in, as if to impress? The public showed their loss of support for Brown in two recent elections, cabinet walked out, anyone not in his close circle within his influence range wants him gone, so where is the election?!
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Anyone grumbling on about "Cameron's cuts", as if Labour have some plan to keep on raising expenditure year by year, needs to answer the question - where is the money coming from?
We have a massive budget deficit, and it is getting bigger by the day, because tax revenues have collapsed. We already pay more out of our taxes on interest than we do on defence. Our international credit rating is already suffering - soon we will see a rise in the interest rates we have to pay. The consequences of not paying off debt will be alarming and they will affect everyone. Living here will be like being beseiged, because we won't be able to afford imports.
So, Gordon Brown and his little helpers here, is this what you want? If you think you can increase expenditure while our net income reduces but without increasing our debt, then let's hear it - WHERE THE HELL IS THE MONEY GOING TO COME FROM?
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76. At 3:02pm on 10 Jun 2009, grandantidote wrote:
Cameron on his best day will never be as good a politician as Gordon Brown on his worst day, so were's his inspiration going to come from.
=====================================================================
And how we laughed. I'll tell you what grand - I could have done a better job that gordon has over 12 years, simply by leaving things were in 1997.
Did Gordon sell our gold on one of his better days?
How about destroying my pension?
In fact Gordon has had quite a few worst days recently hasn't he.
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Once again Cameron has proved himself to be a hypocrite, He wanted reform on MPs expenses then he decides to argue against it
He wants to bring the UK out of recession, by cutting back, how can you cut back and get out of a recession.
I agree with comment 1 keep up the good work Gordon
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carrelson @ 46:
A prime example of serious delusion if I ever saw one. If you really believe that Mandelson wil take over as P.M. after one term of Conservatism then you are truly a candidate for the men in white coats! Maybe you are Mandelson The Lord of Darkness himself. Perhaps you could fill us in a little on your background so that we can attempt to understand you a little better.
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Somethings gotta give, self inflicted lung damage,liver failure even stab wounds, we just can't go standing in middle of the road waiting to get knocked down and then demand help, it all adds toi the cost depriving those that have genuine ailments.
The trouble is Labour, they have created waste in the NHS with money being wasted on bureaucracy rather than treatment.
Soon we'll be looking for 2nd hand plasters!
Labour are not capitalist and never will be, when was the last time they had a healthy kitty... they are very good at spending and nothing else.
Lets remember we did have a Chancellor not long ago and he called himself prudent what a joke that is.... well, where is it then?
Gordon Brown is a ruler, a leader he will never be, forget the NHS he's too busy saving the world (and the Labour party).
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#86:
Hear hear!
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82 - If you're going to cite a reputable and independent article then don't use that Tory pseudo-intellectual would-be-if-he-could-be windbag Fraser Nelson who Gordy rightly put in his place during Friday's press conference.
4,61 - Don't know what you're on about there. Nick is by far and away the most independent of all of the political commentators. Have you every watched Tom Bradby, Adam Boulton or Joey Jones??? Never in my life have I seen such partisan journalism. They may as well all wear blue caps and have middle names like Gideon
80 - Because he is the rightful Prime Minister of this country and I respect the office of PM
67 - Funniest thing I've read in years
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Still think taking to the streets is our best option!
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A projected cut in NHS spending should concern us all. My personal experience of the NHS has been good on the whole, being one of those who has never been able to afford private health insurance for myself or my family.
My perception is that the health service has improved, certainly in my experience, over the past 12 years. There have been some anomalies of course and quite rightly those have been highlighted in the press.
In the early 1990s one of my sons developed a chronic condition which was treated in a way that inhibited his ability to complete his education successfully and get anything other than a voluntary or temporary part time work. Thanks to a course at Portland College and the exposure of the policy which treated my son's condition, and all those like him as cheaply as possible, we were able to wean him off debilitating medication and he was able to continue to hone his skills and get a full-time job.
From personal experience, I therefore fear for future generations if there must be cuts in NHS spending.
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The real, long term, problem in our health, education and other public sector departments is the nature of the 'investments' made during the last 12 years. Too much money has gone into raising salaries and creating new jobs and the overhead costs are simply running out of control. This 'extra investment' as it is trumpeted is nothing of the sort, it's simply cost inflation.
Worse still increased staff costs are a permanent drain on resources since the inflated salaries must be found year after year and the total pension liability for 'gold plated' public sector pensions will become a millstone for the country.
I have recently seen, close up, an organization that failed to control staff costs, allowed them to rise unchecked, and suddenly found itself facing judgment day when the CEO left.
ZaNu Labour 'investments' in the public sector may yet bankrupt us all when it becomes clear that these 'assets' have been valued at far too high a price. Typical ZaNu Labour take a cost and redefine it as an investment.
Cuts are inevitable, unavoidable and essential but must fall most heavily on the administration rather than front line services.
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John Carrelson
Whoah Whoah Whoah!
Let me get this straight then.
Opinions from Andrew Neil and Anita Anand, and the emails they read out are bias against whom exactly? Weren't the emails from the public, or are you stating that they are extremely selective against policy and over view of the Prime Minister?
They seem to be in concert with the majority of bloggers on this site.
They seem to be in concert of the majority of whoever could be bothered to vote in the two recent elections.
Could it be possible that the general public mood has in fact been captured?
Or is it that the majority are wrong and you are right.
You sound like a Brown man to me.
It is called the democratic view of the public, sadly it has been given short shrift over the last decade, but now it's gaining arms and legs everywhere.
That's why if Brown is looking for an electoral change, he'd better ensure it is one agreed on by the public.
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grandantidote 76
I have given you lots of reasons, in all of my posts the last one was on education. I am sorry but it is your posts which are lacking in content. You still have not given us an answer as to how you will deal with Government debt that Labour have racked up and continue to increase if we do not cut services. I would dearly like to hear your answer on that.
It is not kind to call other posters like flamepatricia. I think the one about her son was particularly objectionable.
I suppose you will accuse me of having you referred again, which was totally untrue. Have you thought it might be the language you use?
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Let's face it, UK plc is up to, or close to, it's bank limit just the same as a large number of businesses and families in the country.
So just as you and I are having to tighten out belts and cut out extravagance so too will the country's public services.
I do not want my personal financial suffering to be extended too far into the next decade by way of taxes to finance the overspending of Brown & Co since 1997 - he hasn't helped me out!
Cut out the wasted money and make public services leaner and more efficient, exactly as so many businesses are having to do at the current time.
And as for the Conservatives - stop ducking and diving and just tell it as it is because believe me, Joe Public would rather hear right now that services spending is going to be cut to help keep taxes down and keep as much money in our pockets as possible as opposed to the opposite view.
It goes to show how out of touch with public feeling Labour really is.
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I know two people who work for the NHS in Oxfordshire. One a nurse, one an office bound administrator. Both are being given Blackberry mobile phones, funded by the NHS.
Hardly essential spending.
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Why is the debate about 'CUTS'?
Surely it should be about the economy, effectiveness and efficiency (the Government's words) of public sector spending.
Today's news that 'public sector productivity' fell by 3% during the first 10 years of this Government's tenure says it all.
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#86
well said ghostworld.
I'll give grandanitdote oine reason to vote tory: we need to stop spending money we don't have.
Who cares if Brown or Cameron is a better politician. I'm not casting my vote for a politician. I'm casting my vote for the party that stops spending money we have not earned.
Brown's age of irresponsibility has engendered a culture of entitlement that would make our forebears turn in their graves. Money for staying at home, money for non jobs, money foe quangos, money for endless enquiries and cinsultations we don't need. Endless watsting of public money that needs to stop.
Call an election.
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90. At 3:27pm on 10 Jun 2009, defenderofparliament wrote:
Once again Cameron has proved himself to be a hypocrite,
He wants to bring the UK out of recession, by cutting back, how can you cut back and get out of a recession.
=====================================================
I think its easier than getting out of debt by borrowing.
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#86 ghostworld
You too, avoid giving any reason. Give the numbers of the posting you say, croftie has offered them. Or, offer your own.
I know why I vote Labour or Labour/Co-Operative, when possible. It is the evidence of the past one hundred years. Labour governments don't suit everyone though. They tend to re-distribute the wealth we all make, through taxes and benefits. That is not the solution I hope to see implemented in the end. The wealth should be distributed at source, through co-operative working. But this demands education at a young age which has been opposed 'till now, through fear.
Hopefully, that will change. One thing I am sure is Dave Cameron's Conservative/co-operative office is a sham, aimed just at driving a wedge between a very effective working relationship between the Labour Party and the Co-Operative Party. Which is now in the process of re-thinking the Industrial & Providence laws for the first time in 130 years. It gains no time in the political scrutiny of newspapers or TV/radio because no-one can make money out of mutual organisations other than from the benefits of being a member.
No good to the parasites who want to make money through no work, such as investors in shares of plcs. Thatcher's attempts at destroying the mutuals in the eighties to her shame, was successful to a degree, handing them to the capitalist banking system. This week we see the loss of yet another former mutual, Cheltenham & Glouster, and those who sold out for a handful of shares at the time must hang their heads in shame.
So, what's your reason for voting Tory?
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Poor old Gordon looked really lost and out of his depth today. Cameron was particularly insulting about his government and its legacy of incompetence but Gordon didn't say a thing other than trot out his usual optimistic tractor statistics and maintain his party's clear misunderstanding of the 'Tory cuts' issue. At least he could have said something insulting back about the Major government but pretty sleazy as they were I guess even they weren't as useless as Brown's government has been. It seems even Brown has accepted that.
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johncarrelson @ 46
For goodness sake join the real world! Because of Brown's appalling stewardship of the economy over the past 12 years we are faced with 3 options:
1. Cut expenditure substantially.
2. Raise taxes substantially.
3. Make a return trip with the begging bowl to the IMF.
It is as simple as that. If you don't agree with cutting expenditure which of the other two options would you choose?
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After years of profligacy under a labour government I suspect most of our public services and quangos need a pretty good shake up.
And don't be fooled into believing the labour rhetoric that reduced funding will mean poorer service. It may lead to better customer service if bureaucracy and inefficiencies are removed.
Perhaps SirAlan would be better employed by Gordon as the saviour of our public services organisations!!
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susan @ 99:
Hear hear!
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#103:
Well said yourself Sir!
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"Perhaps if you want to be taken seriously you should present proper reasons why people should vote conservative,"
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Here's 12 reasons off the top of my head, just for a start.
1. Scrapping ID cards
2. Scrapping the paedophiles catalogue (Children's database)
3. Scrapping the intrusive law requiring ALL electronic communications to be stored.
4. Scrapping the intrusive "spy in the sky" road pricing plans.
5. Referendum on the EU treaty
6. Cutting wild and insane levels of government waste
7. A commitment backed by real penalties (being fired) for Ministers to get more results for less money. (value for money being a priority instead of the size of the spending bill)
8. Making the tax and benefits system a LOT simpler, to make it easier to know who is paying the correct amount of tax, and to make sure that people in real need actually get access to the CORRECT amount of benefits
9. Scrapping HIPs allowing the housing market to recover.
10. Restoring the sacred covenant between the state and the Military. And counting the amount of time a Soldier is AT HOME as his leave, not including the amount of time travelling home, real healthcare benefits and military hospitals.
11. The promise of a FULL and OPEN and TRANSPARENT inquiry into 7/7/05 and the Government's full role in the peddling of lies in the run up to the invasion of Iraq.
12. Restoration of the Bank of England in the oversight role for the banking sector.
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104. At 3:46pm on 10 Jun 2009, sweetAnybody wrote:
90. At 3:27pm on 10 Jun 2009, defenderofparliament wrote:
Once again Cameron has proved himself to be a hypocrite,
He wants to bring the UK out of recession, by cutting back, how can you cut back and get out of a recession.
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I think its easier than getting out of debt by borrowing.
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haha that's very funny
So when Cameron has cut back till theres nothing to cut back on, will we get out of recession, no we will owe billions more than we do already, Clumsy Cameron and his policies are failed.
He should shut up about elections too.
Cameron is the biggest hypocrite alive I reckon, he wanted expenses reforms then he fights against them. Make no mistake Cameron is in this for what he can get out
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Like most BBC commentators Nick Robinson has proved himself, like the BBC itself,to be pro labour, we all have to understand that it's the government of the day that governs. Its the decisions they take that is is put into practice and the consequences of which we have to suffer. We seem to hear from these commentators more about what is missing from what the oppostion parties would do, as if they can do anything about the state of of the economy or the NHS or anything else instead of stating the facts about the multitude of lies and failures of this paradoxically (having a huge majority) weak administration. What we have found is that now that Gordon Brown is under pressure from his own party he now 'listens' or says he does, and begins to make suggestions about what he intends to do, which for the most part is what the oppostion has been calling for.
Let's not forget, he is an un-elected Prime Minister who wnats reform of the Lords but hypocritically, uses Labour members of the Lords (un-elected of course)to help form his cabinet, he has called back into government discreditted people because he is unable to recruit form within the ranks of democratically elected MPs. He has reneged on the Labour party's own manifesto by not allowing us to vote on the Lisbon treaty. His reasoning behind the huge loss of support for labour in the EU elections has totally backfired because he said the same results would transpire throughout Europe when in fact the incumbent governments in Europe for the most part have performed exceptionally well.
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I misunderstood Andrew Lansley. I believed he was talking about cuts of 10% immediately. I didn't realise it was over a period of 3 years. Meanwhile another financial think tank are saying that NHS funding needs to be cut by 7%. Time for The Government to come out and say what cuts they will make because cuts there will have to be after their enormous spending spree.
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"Cameron on his best day will never be as good a politician as Gordon Brown on his worst day, so were's his inspiration going to come from."
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, OK, So, What level of popular support did Brown achieve in the Euro elections? 5%! (15% of the 31% that voted) FIVE PERCENT! This BRILLIANT politician has turned an election winning machine into a tiny fringe movement in only TWO YEARS!
Yup he is certainly better than Cameron. Better at beating the labour party that is!
And how many councils did labour win out of the 34 up for grabs on Thursday? ZERO!!
If that is a sign of how Brilliant Brown is, then I am VERY HAPPY that the labour MP's were both too stupid AND too cowardly to dump him.
If you want to compare Cameron and Brown, all I can say is: 30 - NIL!
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John Carrelson (post #1) neglected to mention that our shambolic prime minister lied to the house today. As is well known a careful reading of Darling's last budget reveals cuts of 7% ACROSS ALL DEPARTMENTS of government from 2010.
As the Conservatives have pledged to maintain spnding on the NHS, Education and the Department for International Development (this last = lunacy) that equates to cuts of 10% for other departments - hence Brown's current line of "attack".
Brown is toxic waste and unfortunately the half life of his reckless policies will last for generations. It is a source of constant amazement that people like Carrelsen can't see that.
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Good Grief;
"He wants to bring the UK out of recession, by cutting back, how can you cut back and get out of a recession."
He wants to cut back, to get out of debt. Doing this will help the UK to get credit in the future. Not doing so will bankrupt us. It's not even about the recession.
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Quote:In truth, aren't both Burnham and Lansley guilty of not spelling out the truth about what the huge deficit means?
Oh Nick, you are such a card. Whenever did we start believing a word a politician of whatever party says nowadays? If Gordon Brown can tell a right porkie that he didn`t want to move his Chancellor, then why should we believe the underlins?
Its all a game. Thank goodness the 13 week recess will be soon upon us and we can get some piece and quiet.
We all know UKPLC is spending more than it is earning, so simple economics means that it has to cut spending in future years to make up the deficit. Now, if it`s called efficiency savings, being leaner, value for money etc its cut backs, pure and simple.
We know its coming next year and the years after so why be so suprised? Get used to it. Higher direct and indirect taxes and cut backs in public sector spending will be the order of the day, whichever party is in power. Get used to it. Its no good the Labour loylalists protesting otherwise, unless they have billions hidden away somewhere which we don`t know about.
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#94:
You really are a bitter chap aren't you. I look forward to your hero being beaten to a pulp at the forthcoming General Election!
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Brown, like all Labour politicians since forever, is relying on the electorate being stupid. He has a point sadly.
So "Tory cuts" will resonate, despite the fact that it is predicated on a lie, and that there would also have to be labour cuts, and that the inevitable cuts from either side is in any case all Labour's fault for their disastrous economic mismanagement.
The tories are right, and will once again as ever be better stewards of the nation's finances, but they'd better have some better communicators than Lansley or they will be stuffed.
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"Labour are not capitalist and never will be, when was the last time they had a healthy kitty... they are very good at spending and nothing else."
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I disagree. Just because they do a lot of it, in fact far far too much of it, does not mean that they are any good at it. In this area, practice has certainly NOT made perfect.
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64
My friend, I was merely reacting to a profoundly mislead individual who continues to believe that he is the only person in possession of the full facts.
People are inddeed stupid, they bought the lies sold by Blair and are therefore to blame for Gordon Brown. But you can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time.
Our tinfoil hat wearer does not seem to comprehend that he is firmly in the category of "some of the people".
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Dear Nick,
The figures are coming from Fraser Nelson's reporting of the IFS report on this years budget.
As the budget stands, Labour's plans are to cut spending in real terms across ALL departments by 7%.
If the Tories maintain their committment not to cut NHS spending, then the remaining departments need to be cut by 10% to maintain the budget levels. There is no cut in the overall budget level, just realism about it.
Could you amend your article to reflect these facts? Feel free to read Fraser's piece on the Spectator website.
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# Susancroft - do NOT rise to the bait of sadly delusional people on this HYS. ANYONE with a tiny brain can see the sense in what u write - those ones with tiny brains can not.
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# 46 johncarrelson
Sir, I must thank you for sharing that with everyone. I really have needed a proper belly laugh like that for ages now (what with the state of the nation et al.)
You have assisted me more than you might know, in fact. I have been searching for a suitable definition for the word "cretin" for some years now, and I do believe the search is over.
I wish you all the best, you've been dealt a rotten hand in life.
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If the present crew in power are claiming that they won't make cuts but will continue finding money for heaven knows what other 'reforms' then the country is going to be bankrupt in no time.
Personally, I wouldn't believe any manifesto that didn't disclose pretty serious attempts at saving taxpayers' money so that the horrendous debt we've been landed with doesn't get any bigger.
BTW what happened to the debate on 'no confidence in GB' that was scheduled for this afternoon?
Keep adding signatures to the petition on http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/please-go/ if you have lost confidence in the PM. He probably won't take any notice but, at least he'll see the strength of feeling on his own website.
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Here's a different thought... What if Cameron doesn't actually WANT to win the next election? Say the Tories actual election aim is to increase their number of seats by just enough to give Brown an overall majority of say 5-10. Whilst Brown would have pulled off the wonderful 4th Term, he would then have the poisoned chalice of actually trying to sort out the spiralling public debt that he and Darling ran up in Labour's 3rd term. Plus, his small majority would be extremely fragile and his position as PM vulnerable.
After winning in 2010 Labour would be then forced to either a) make spending cuts - thus neutralising any claims against the Tories or b) increase borrowing - thus destroying/severely damaging Labour's reputation for economic competence. Brown, unable to accept his failures would continue to soldier on (like Major) until his exhausted and even more bitterly divided party are trounced at the next election.
The cupboard for Labour is already bare and the party looks tired from 12 years in Government. A fourth Labour Government would do nothing radically different and would drift from populist cause to the next. A short period in Opposition (under a new leader) would allow the Party to re-energise and possibly win in 2015. 1992 was the Conservatives greatest defeat. A Brown victory in 2010 would be exactly the same for Labour.
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91 - Mandelson has more brains, substance, and concern and care for Britain than the whole bunch of that Tory rabble put together.
98 - The analogy that what is represented in these blogs is representative of the whole country is very wrong. This blog is 70% Tory yet they got 28% of the vote. Don't make the mistake the media are that everyone loves DC & Co. They don't!!
Also, I was referring to the e-mails they read out. I love Andrew as a journalist and think, with Nick, he makes politics entertaining and accessible but he should have read out more emails on the Tory plans. Notice at the end Anita said, "and there are also some emails on the Tories and their cuts"
Crofty - If we cut our way out of this recession then we will prolong it and leave millions more unemployed. Growing out will mean a far larger tax revenue pool in future years that will work towards paying off the debt. N.B. We will still have less debt than Germany, France, US, and in taking the "grow-out" course we are investing in the future. The only country that agrees with the Tory strategy is Czech Republic.
Crofty, you Tories really need to get past this immoral utilitarian mode of thinking. The "50 million people are having it good and debt levels are sound, and this justifies 10m being in abject poverty" thinking of Thatcher and Major is just wrong wrong wrong. The altruistic ideas of the Labour party are far fairer and moral.
I know Labour has historically mucked up the economy everytime they've been in power but remember: this current government isn't really Labour in the historical sense. I think we all know that Blair would have chosen any party as long as it's path led to 10DS. I trust Brown and Darling to make the right decisions
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I have watched the PMQS.
What I have to say is I back all spending cuts as I personally do not benefit from any of the public services.
I believe in realistic approaches and Labour has none.
Some time ago Canada used a 20% public spending cut across all services to eliminate their outstanding deficits.
I would like to see something similar happen to the UK.
Of course I do not want see pensioners suffer,but we must understand public spending cuts especially in the NHS and defence would save the economy.
Ultimately I personally believe that radical cuts are needed in the DWP budget and less sudsidies to the EU and the Scottish government.
Possibly replicating Margaret Thatcher's ingenuity and claiming substancial EU subsidies back however with a far-left government none of this will ever be achieved. A radical right-wing Tory is required.
I rest my case.
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"So when Cameron has cut back till theres nothing to cut back on, will we get out of recession, no we will owe billions more than we do already, Clumsy Cameron and his policies are failed."
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How can you possibly owe MORE by spending Less? You are typical of the 5% of the public that voted labour on Thursday. You are seriously mathematically challenged.
You have no clue about economics so go and read a few books and learn about what it is you are trying to communicate.
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The only way the remaining 20% of the voting electorate that continue to support labour will see them for the car crash theya re is for the election to be held off until May 2010, then the £200 BILLION+ Gilt auctions by the government will fail, AAA rating will be lost, stockmarket collapse again, IMF comes in to bail us out, and Labour and specifically Gordon Brown's incompetence and reckless abandon with our taxpayers money will be show to those Labour supporters who may finally get it through their heads that Labour = Financial Ruin.
Shame it will take bringing our country to it's knees for people to resign Labour to political exile once and for all. The damn champagne socialists really do strike a nerve with me.
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After all those expense claims there is no money remaining to run the country!
I thought some Labour suit claimed they had fixed the NHS on a recent Newsnight, or was that their kitchen?
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@ 113.
Indeed you are right, and labour kept pushing the patently false line that the poor display was because of the expenses scandal which hit all parties.
Well how come the tory share had increased from the last elections?
No. This was NOT the electorate sending a message that we all want Gordon to get on with the job, unless the job in hand is asking the Queen to dissolve Parliament for a general election.
The elections last week was the ENTIRE country (less the 5% fringe that voted labour) telling Gordon AND the labour party to get lost!
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117. At 4:00pm on 10 Jun 2009, kingloneranger
Oh so the recession no longer matters does it????
That just about sums up the Tories
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Nick,
I've not seen Geraldine Smith MP on the news today. Is there something wrong with my TV ?
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#124 ronnie reagan
So which is it? Those with or those without can see it. You seem a little confused. There is an eisy option for you, NUKE 'EM
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You really can't gain that much insight into who has the best policies from PM questions. I did find it hugely entertaining though.
I think the Conservatives plan to make planned spending available to the public on-line is a great way forward ... if it's done correctly and explained well enough. They seem to have the right attitude to being responsible and open with how "our" money is spent.
On another note ... from the little I've heard from Alan Johnson he comes across in a refreshingly straightforward and unassuming way and if backed up with policies that are equally straightforward and honest then he's a real candidate.
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"Quote:In truth, aren't both Burnham and Lansley guilty of not spelling out the truth about what the huge deficit means?
Oh Nick, you are such a card. Whenever did we start believing a word a politician of whatever party says nowadays? If Gordon Brown can tell a right porkie that he didn`t want to move his Chancellor, then why should we believe the underlins?"
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Well we all expect white lies about statistics and spending figures. that is the norm in politics.
What I object to (and the BBC have not even acknowledged) is the blatant and very bloody lies Brown and Blair told to get us into a war of conquest in Iraq in direct contravention of ALL Nuremberg Principles, leading to the deaths, mutilations and displacement of over 4 million peoples.
If Brown is prepared to lie about the need to send our brave soldiers to war, then he will lie about anything!
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#127 bslight
We have at last discovered who DC's stratergist is.
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112. At 3:54pm on 10 Jun 2009, defenderofparliament wrote:
104. At 3:46pm on 10 Jun 2009, sweetAnybody wrote:
90. At 3:27pm on 10 Jun 2009, defenderofparliament wrote:
Once again Cameron has proved himself to be a hypocrite,
He wants to bring the UK out of recession, by cutting back, how can you cut back and get out of a recession.
=====================================================
I think its easier than getting out of debt by borrowing.
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haha that's very funny
So when Cameron has cut back till theres nothing to cut back on, will we get out of recession, no we will owe billions more than we do already, Clumsy Cameron and his policies are failed.
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Perhaps I don't understand maths or you are just so much cleverer than I am that I just can't understand your higher thinking, but can you explain how we could possibly get more into debt by spending less?
Or perhaps you think you can spend your way out of debt?
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105. At 3:48pm on 10 Jun 2009, wasowenright wrote:
#86 ghostworld
You too, avoid giving any reason. Give the numbers of the posting you say, croftie has offered them. Or, offer your own.
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Please do feel free to expand and qualify your comments
What reasons would you like ?
Susan's reasoned and accurate arguments are there in pure black and white for you to see, the secret dear chap is to actually take your blinkers off and.... Well read the posts ...Simples
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Global economic crisis, yeah? You'll find a awful lot of countries with hugely increased debt since last autumn. It's not all Brown's fault! I suppose you think we're all so thick we can't recall further back than last week. A lot of us can even remember the last Tory dispensation. Something about greed is good, bankers are heroes, no need to manufacture much. Real wealth creation! As for kingloneranger; you're obviously too rich to need the public services, which is why you ignorantly rejoice at the idea of saving money by cutting them. Most of us need them, mate; for most of us, they're not nearly well-funded enough. Quite simple, really; we won't vote Tory because we know they represent the interests of people who have enough, and more than enough, money. Whether or not Labour can free itself from the chains your ideology has thrown round it and remember that it was originally funded by millions of people struggling to put aside a few pennies a week, will determine whether or not it deserves our votes. New Labour was always an offshoot of and a sign of Tory hegemony, not of a bright new dawn. There's a chance for genuine democratic change now that the public can clearly see that the ruling class is still that, whatever party names it adopts.
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johncarrelson 128
Until you have the good grace to address me properly as I do you I have absolutely no intention of answering you.
I will let others point out where your proposals are unbelievable wrong.
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"In truth, aren't both Burnham and Lansley guilty of not spelling out the truth about what the huge deficit means?"
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Yes.
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3. At 12:34pm on 10 Jun 2009, johncarrelson wrote:
The Conservative bias of Andrew Neil and Anita Anand is just staggering. Every e-mail they read out is anti-Brown, week after week, after week after week.
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Have you stopped to think that there might be another reason why all the emails are anti-Brown?
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128. At 4:12pm on 10 Jun 2009, johncarrelson wrote:
I know Labour has historically mucked up the economy everytime they've been in power but remember: this current government isn't really Labour in the historical sense. I think we all know that Blair would have chosen any party as long as it's path led to 10DS. I trust Brown and Darling to make the right decisions
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Are you suggesting that they actually haven't mucked up the economy this time?
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11. At 12:55pm on 10 Jun 2009, sku123 wrote:
I just wonder where Gordon Brown thinks he is going to get the money from for increasing spending on public services year- on-year.
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The IMF or quantitative easing perhaps?
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#johncarrellson - Mandelson knows a thing or two about corruption does`nt he!!! He is the very person that a Presbyterian conscience needs at this time, along with a Chancellor who can not even fill in his own tax return.
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105. At 3:48pm on 10 Jun 2009, wasowenright wrote:
#86 ghostworld
You too, avoid giving any reason. Give the numbers of the posting you say, croftie has offered them. Or, offer your own.
I know why I vote Labour or Labour/Co-Operative, when possible. It is the evidence of the past one hundred years. Labour governments don't suit everyone though. They tend to re-distribute the wealth we all make, through taxes and benefits. That is not the solution I hope to see implemented in the end. The wealth should be distributed at source, through co-operative working. But this demands education at a young age which has been opposed 'till now, through fear.
Hopefully, that will change. One thing I am sure is Dave Cameron's Conservative/co-operative office is a sham, aimed just at driving a wedge between a very effective working relationship between the Labour Party and the Co-Operative Party. Which is now in the process of re-thinking the Industrial & Providence laws for the first time in 130 years. It gains no time in the political scrutiny of newspapers or TV/radio because no-one can make money out of mutual organisations other than from the benefits of being a member.
No good to the parasites who want to make money through no work, such as investors in shares of plcs. Thatcher's attempts at destroying the mutuals in the eighties to her shame, was successful to a degree, handing them to the capitalist banking system. This week we see the loss of yet another former mutual, Cheltenham & Glouster, and those who sold out for a handful of shares at the time must hang their heads in shame.
So, what's your reason for voting Tory?
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It's hard i know, but you will just have to accept defeat. The " New " Labour experiment is in tatters. look at the recent elections, can you honestly say people in the UK are HAPPY with Labour ( sorry New Labour ) ? You have to face reality that the majority of the general public are really really hacked off with Labour.. To belittle their opinion and thoughts is just another example of the utter contempt and arrogance that appears to run through Labour.
I don't believe i expressed a voting direction, therefore you are making assumptions.. I am merely stating that this current Government are attrocious on so so many levels
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134. At 4:19pm on 10 Jun 2009, defenderofparliament wrote:
117. At 4:00pm on 10 Jun 2009, kingloneranger
Oh so the recession no longer matters does it????
That just about sums up the Tories
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That comment is so absurd, i could entertain it, if it wasn't for the fact that the Tories are not even in power and havn't been for 12 years ....
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"If cuts in the health budget are to be avoided Labour are planning to cut other departments' spending by 10%."
So, we can be sure that now is the time for public sector workers and their union bosses to start filling their boots. With possibly only months to go before the Labour Party disappears up its own exhaust pipe, the public sector would be mad not to screw the Government for every penny it can get between now the departure of the Labour Party into oblivion.
Hence, perhaps, why the Tube workers and their union heavies are now at it: http://tinyurl.com/wkwtf
Watch out for more, much more of this over the coming months. If you thought the last time the Labour Party led the country into a Winter of Discontent was tough, this one's going to be the mother of all winters. Bear in mind that Gordon Brown doesn't screw things up by halves.
Then again, if you're Gordon Brown or a Labour Party MP, who the hell cares? You've got your own neck to worry about.
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134 - One thing at a time my good man. You're suggesting that the Public sector doesn't need cutting and that we need to take on even MORE debt? I hope you are right, but it's a very long shot.
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128. At 4:12pm on 10 Jun 2009, johncarrelson wrote:
91 - Mandelson has more brains, substance, and concern and care for Britain than the whole bunch of that Tory rabble put together.
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Now that is truly truly delusional
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#135:
I think she's probably been advised to keep a low profile. After all there's only so much you can take of a daft bird like her.
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Purple
"How can you possibly owe MORE by spending Less?"
Easily - if your income falls by a greater amount than your spending is cut. That's the whole point.
"You have no clue about economics so go and read a few books"
I think you might need to take your own advice on this one.
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This is the first time I feel sufficiently angry to post.
To me its quite simple. If you spend more than you earn you either go broke or borrow to cover the shortfall. If you wish to continue to spend over your budget , sorry "invest", the money has to come from somewhere. Either you earn more(raise taxes) or you look at ways of reducing outgoings(cuts)
So in PMQs today our PM said Labour was the spending party and the Conservatives where the cutting party.
All I'd ask is where does the PM think the monies coming from? Oh yes, thats right, higher tax revenues as we motor out of reccession at growth rates higher than in the good old days when there was no boom or bust!
And if we do by some miracle grow that fast what about inflation and thus rapidly increasing interest rates? Factor that in with rising unemployment we have a toxic cocktail that will put what the country has been through in the last 9 months look like a boom - oh sorry we dont have those anymore do we, the PM said so!
This country is on its knees.I amd my family are not affected by MP's expenses nor whats happening in the Labour Party. But we are by whats going on in the economy.
The truth is, regardless of who is responsible for the mess we are in or where it started, the country is up to its neck in debt. We will all have to pay either by paying more tax and/or take a reduction in the standard of public services that we all take for granted.
And to hear the PM basically lie(again!) in Parliament today leaves me sickened. He treats the public like idiots at his peril!
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46. At 1:50pm on 10 Jun 2009, johncarrelson
Nice rant!
Could I just ask you, do you think that a future Labour government would have to cut back on current spending levels or not?
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#156:
I think you should change your username to reflect the correct spelling of remember. Just a thought like.
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Ron 124
"ANYONE with a tiny brain can see the sense in what u write - those ones with tiny brains can not."
Could you just run that one past me again, I must be missing something..
I think you could be a candidate for the FlamePat Award for the Most Ridiculous post by a Tory
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#153:
I said the same thing a number of threads ago. You can't argue with skewed thinking like his. Best to ignore it because he has a closed mind.
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63. At 2:33pm on 10 Jun 2009, wasowenright wrote:
#50 croftie
...I am suprised that on these blogs there have been no references to the Reith Lectures, (apart from mine of course), where an alternative veiw of our interaction with society is being descibed. Now, if anyone has anything to say about Professor Sandels' veiw, this would be a good place to voice them.
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No it wouldn't, it would be off-topic!
Now that WAS a one liner ;-)
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112. At 3:54pm on 10 Jun 2009, defenderofparliament wrote:
So when Cameron has cut back till theres nothing to cut back on, will we get out of recession, no we will owe billions more than we do already, Clumsy Cameron and his policies are failed.
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What kind of clueless half-witted nonsense do supporters of labour's economic policy read I wonder.
I assume you think that if we cut public spending, then the recession will deepen, and the reduced taxes will more than offset the reduction in public spending, so increasing public sector borrowing?
Ok, so let's go back to one of Gordon Brown's favourite quips: 'you cannot cut your way out of a recession you spend your way out'
Leaving aside the fact that most experts actually add to this 'provided you can afford the expenditure'. Brown & co can't - THEY'VE RUN OUT OF MONEY!
But ok, let's see what will happen:
Cuts:
1. public sector employees become available for work
2. total take home pay summed across all public servants drops (because there are fewer and some overpaid ones have pay cuts)
3. public sector purchasing from private sector businesses drops
Now if we leave it there, yes, the recession gets worse. There's less money being spent by the public sector.
But wait a minute - the government is not the only spender in town.
So, let's assume a responsible government like the tories who can see the need to get us out of recession. Rather than spend all the savings on debt reduction, much as they would like to, they spend it on a mix of debt reduction and carefully targetted tax cuts.
Nowe let's carry on
4. sterling strengthens as the plan for govt debt reduction takes effect
5. private sector industry becomes more profitable, due to the targetted tax cuts, and also cheaper imports from the strengthening sterling (don't try and say we are a net exporter - we're not)
6. private sector industry has more money to invest in capital projects - and one person's capital project is another person's revenue income
7. the providers of those capital projects have more money, grow, and employ more staff (those same public sector staff laid off ealier, now paid more by the private sector, than they were by the government)
8. tax income for the government increases, everyone is better off, and a controlled growth ensues
That's the good scenario.
Now let's look at your scenario
1. more and more people are employed by the public sector
2. more and more money is spent by the public sector, giving, in the short term, more business to the private sector
3. debt rises and rises because for every pound the public sector spends, there is not a corresponding pound of tax income - some ends up in savings
4. sterling falls and falls, imports become more and more expensive
5. people's standard of living drops as they can no longer afford foreign electronic imports, such as TVs and cars
6. business's costs rise as their import costs rise - more and more businesses fail, more and more tax revenue is lost, much of it forever
7. the UK has to impose export quotas because they need the UK-produced goods to remain in the UK for the benefit of the poor UK population, rather than being sold to countries with stronger currencies
8. in this increasingly isolationist world, we become increasingly reliant on locally produced goods from a smaller and smaller private sector - the government is forced to rescue more and more critical industries: water, gas, electricity, telecomms, supermarkets, pubs - all become state-owned and loss-making
9. welcome to the united soviet kingdom
It just doesn't work in the modern world. Spending your way out of recession does not take account of the currency markets. Which is why you have to have the money to be able to afford it.
Actually what we need to do is *produce* our way out of the recession. Which means a low tax regime designed to nurture growing small businesses which will increase our production.
And like we have heard said very recently I believe, reducing the level of debt finance in all areas of the economy - personal, business and government. Why? Because we have just seen what happens to an economy reliant on debt finance when lenders start to pull the plugs.
So please - no more of this nonsense about spending your way out of recession. The pot's empty!
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johncarrelson are you one of Gordon Browns thugs? "Keep up the good work" "Gordy" He is the most useless leader since Foot. It is cringe worthy watching him speak. If he really wanted to clean up politics he would call a general election. He is fatally flawed and will be mauled at the polls once again.
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"As for kingloneranger; you're obviously too rich to need the public services, which is why you ignorantly rejoice at the idea of saving money by cutting them."
Am I? I'm not a real king you know. That's just a posting name. a pseudonym if you will.
I'm afraid if you think the public services need significantly more funding then you may just have to accept that they will never reach your high standards as the money required simply does not exist. You also fall into the trap of believing that more money equals better. It doesn't. My Granddad went into hospital 8 weeks ago for a broken leg, 6 weeks later he died as a result of infection picked up there, I don't believe for one second that more money is the answer here. Too much 'management', required to hit 'targets' - none of which involved preventing my granddad from dying. Sorry, I am not rich and I believe that the NHS is incredibly important, but I don't believe for one second that cuts are not necessary, nor that they will inevitably lead to a poorer service.
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Please don't talk about Mandy. Sacked twice from cabinet and has no democratic right to be in cabinet. Pure poisen.
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86. At 3:24pm on 10 Jun 2009, ghostworld wrote:
76. At 3:02pm on 10 Jun 2009, grandantidote wrote:
50 susan croft
...It is indeed funny how when Labour and their supporters know they face almost certain death at the next election, they resort to petty personal insults.
===
Ad hominem attacks, it's the NewLabour way.
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Isn't it a little bit disingenuous for Jimmy Brown to talk about reforming the House of Lords days after ennobling two more sycophants to prop up his cabinet, and now presiding over a cabinet with the most unelected Lords in it in over 100 years?
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160. At 5:05pm on 10 Jun 2009, sicilian29 wrote:
#153:
I said the same thing a number of threads ago. You can't argue with skewed thinking like his. Best to ignore it because he has a closed mind.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Closed mind ? I would say more a confused mind.
I agree with your comments, but i do find his comments highly amusing. I don't think he really believes anything he posts..The Mandy comments were a dead give away
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94. At 3:33pm on 10 Jun 2009, johncarrelson wrote:
82 - If you're going to cite a reputable and independent article then don't use that Tory pseudo-intellectual would-be-if-he-could-be windbag Fraser Nelson who Gordy rightly put in his place during Friday's press conference.
===
By lying and then ignoring him!
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156 icanremember
Can you remember when an MP was accused of being an idiot by a fellow MP and he replied "there are a lot of idiots out there and they need representing"?
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128 JC
OK John and what about the general consensus from the public in last weeks election? And where exactly are the people who support your theory on the success of the PM? Aside of course the surviving cabinet members who now hold Brown by Jim and the Twins?
Are they to high brow to appear on a blog such as this?
Are they only waiting to vote on whenever the PM has the stones to call for a GE?
Somehow I doubt it, there is a stigmatism associated with Labour now, they are damaged goods, and I'm prepared to bet that people in general will vote for anything except Labour! (BNPs success as painful as it was to see is certainly a legacy of this).
I don't believe that it is purely expenses, the Tories have had some of the most risible claims imaginable, and yet they came on top last week.
It used to be Hazel Blears who used to say "People aren't interested in the results in the elections what they want for us to get back to Good Government" Oh Hazel how well miss your optimism.
Now, however Mandleson is doing it.
I watched the Mandleson interview on line with, Andrew Marr and he has now employed Blears rhetoric! Telling Marr that the public want to hear is what the Labour Party wants to do next and not worry about the two democratic elections! Or his poisonous email.
Really Peter?
No I wanted to know what his feelings are about the PM, now he is pulling the strings or indeed what he thinks the PM claims to have learned. What seems apparent is that he has learned he doesnt like the way elections are run in this country now he has had to face one and his first knee jerk first major decision he has made since last weeks embarrassment.
Still it matters not and I don't care about your views really, but would caution you not to write too much drivel as people on this blog tend to gang up and bully, still it's your right, but maybe you should take a walk round the garden and read it over you text again before you click on Post comment.
I do most of the time but I still mess up the spelling and Grammar, still perfection is boring.
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Either public taxes will rise, public expenditure will fall or the deficit will get worse - one of three.
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I think I fancy Susan-Croft.
Call an election! (or anything Susan-Croft says)
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Brown is calling spending cuts investments.
I know he's lost it but someone should tell him.
His election call is Brown's investments versus Cameron's cuts,
I ask you what hope is there while this man is still in charge?
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what did GB say his father told him? be honest? then to say almost in the same breath that he never wanted to remove AD from the treasury. breathtaking.
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I just don't understand how so many members of the cabinet can be unelected? Who will present bills on business or European matters? How can we question these people?
Brown cannot expect us, the voters, to accept this undemocratic way of government. Also, we are not stupid! We know that there has to be a hold on spending because we cannot afford this enormous debt that he has created. This is not just a result of the banking crisis. It is pretty sad to see this country in such a mess. In any other line of business Brown would have been fired for complete incompetence!
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There is no point turning up the taps before plugging the holes.
Eliminate waste,inefficiencies and job squatters. Give more resources, remove bureaucracy, increase the pay of those who are able, willing and diligent in good works.
Bring IT inhouse. Get rid of management consultants amd outsourcers. As some private enterprises have demonstrated in the past, there must be a whole thick fat layers in the middle.
Less is often more. Lead by example, top down and no exceptions, of pride and honour in jobs well done, diligence and dedication beyond job specs. Those who are unwilling to follow should leave.
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1. At 12:17pm on 10 Jun 2009, johncarrelson wrote:
Just watched PMQs. Again Cameron has proven himself to be totally out his depth!! His contempt for PMQs with some of the disgracefully disrespectful things he says is just staggering.
Gordy outfought and outgunned him!! Keep up the good work Gordy!
====================================================================
An amusing summary of PMQs, though as you posted at 12.17 you can only be referring to the first half of them as were only halfway through at hat point. Not that it probably matters, your post was probably written for you well in advance of the event ! I'll bet Mandy isn't pleased you posted well before PMQs had finished !
PMQs is just another example of how Gordon Brown has dragged politics into the gutter. If the latest "New " Gordon is really interested in reconnecting with the electorate, then he could perhaps try answering questions which are asked of him.
His answers are just like your posting - pre-prepared by someone else in advance, and bearing no relevance to what actually happens. Perhaps they were both written by teh same person ?!?!?!?
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# 144 yellow
So, in your drive for efficiencies you are now down to one word replies. Soon, maybe, with luck none.
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139. At 4:31pm on 10 Jun 2009, wasowenright wrote:
#127 bslight
We have at last discovered who DC's stratergist is.
===
I thought that was me?!
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169 yellowbelly
Suggests that Labour supporters face death at the next election.They had better start checking their insurance policies. I thought they would only be taking part in a ballot.Dave must be proud of his supporters, their stupidity appears to be unending.
It is reported that the Bullingdon Club Kid has a personal fortune of £33 million.In view of the fact that he has only had three jobs, bag carrier in the Tory Research Department, spin doctor in a company that went bust owing millions and advisor to Norman Lamont. It raises at least two interesting questions a - What effect will massive cuts to public services have on him? b - how has he aquired such wealth with such a dismal employment record?
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If the Tories needed to cut spending it would be as a result of the incredible level of debt that this Labour government has plunged the country into. Ironic, because it's exactly what Labour did last time they were in power.
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It is very straightforward.Brown says he intends to carry on spending/investing /wasting as before.This means either he can borrow the money (can't think who will lend it) print it and cause inflation or raise the basic rate of income tax to 25 %.So that is the choice budgetary constraint or inflation and tax increases.
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guilty of not spelling out the truth
There's a thing. And shame on those individuals, and their parties, who still subscribe to this silly game.
I want to hear what the actual situation is, and what's proposed that's best for my family and country; not what some slick (though nowhere near as slick as they think they are) doods believe that telling us will help towards what's best for them and their party's chances.
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~127 BSlight
So that's a 'win - win' then.
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179. At 5:44pm on 10 Jun 2009, wasowenright wrote:
# 144 yellow
So, in your drive for efficiencies you are now down to one word replies. Soon, maybe, with luck none.
===
Don't you believe in free speech?
Also, could you enlighten us as to whether you work in a workers' co-operative?
Many thanks.
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181. At 5:50pm on 10 Jun 2009, braveSouter
I think you've got the wrong post, I never said anything of the sort.
Go check.
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#181 bravesouter
I think you will find that Cameron is not worth anything like GBP33 million, but don't let the facts get in the way, eh?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1191155/Claims-David-Cameron-30m-fortune-sit-uneasily-taxpayers-So-truth-money.html
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Why do you tories call the Prime Minister
'McStalin', 'Stalin' and our state the 'United Soviet Kingdom'
I found this with many Tory supporters, they resort to name calling, how childish, your leader that is Cameron is also very childish, it shouldn't be the conservative party it should be the 'Child's play party'
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"The bottom line is that the government's own numbers imply a 10% real cut in spending on other departments between 2011 and 2013, if the NHS and DIFD are protected."
Steph Flanders.
Over to you GB.
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Nick, as usual you gave a great explanation of the 10% issue on the Daily Politics. To add to your knowledge perhaps you may wish to read this:
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2009/06/the-truth-about-10-spending-cuts.html
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See what a hypocrite the conservatives are:
About two weeks ago Cameron stated that he wanted reform on MP's expenses today he changes his mind and says no
Then to cap it all they state that they are going to cut their way out of recession and then today they change it...
This party quite obviously has lost before its even got in power, if it changes policies thousands of times before it gets in office imagine what it'll be like if they got in power.
It'll be like a nuclear Bomb going of
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111. At 3:54pm on 10 Jun 2009, purpleDogzzz wrote:
"Perhaps if you want to be taken seriously you should present proper reasons why people should vote conservative,"
----------------------------
Here's 12 reasons off the top of my head, just for a start.
1. Scrapping ID cards
2. Scrapping the paedophiles catalogue (Children's database)
3. Scrapping the intrusive law requiring ALL electronic communications to be stored.
4. Scrapping the intrusive "spy in the sky" road pricing plans.
5. Referendum on the EU treaty
6. Cutting wild and insane levels of government waste
7. A commitment backed by real penalties (being fired) for Ministers to get more results for less money. (value for money being a priority instead of the size of the spending bill)
8. Making the tax and benefits system a LOT simpler, to make it easier to know who is paying the correct amount of tax, and to make sure that people in real need actually get access to the CORRECT amount of benefits
9. Scrapping HIPs allowing the housing market to recover.
10. Restoring the sacred covenant between the state and the Military. And counting the amount of time a Soldier is AT HOME as his leave, not including the amount of time travelling home, real healthcare benefits and military hospitals.
11. The promise of a FULL and OPEN and TRANSPARENT inquiry into 7/7/05 and the Government's full role in the peddling of lies in the run up to the invasion of Iraq.
12. Restoration of the Bank of England in the oversight role for the banking sector.
=================
If I thought that much of that was likely to actually happen, I'd almost be tempted to vote Tory. But I don't - and as a rational liberal I'll probably end up having to vote for Geraldine Smith. The first time I'll have voted Labour since the election before Blair got in. The whole lot of them make me shudder, but Harman really scares me.
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Why do you say "blurt out", Nick? Are you so used to Nulab lies that if anyone actually tells the truth, you see it as a guff?
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I was very shocked at PMQs today. The Prime Minister simply seems to have decided to mislead the public over the need for public spending cuts. If he is not misleading the public, he is perhaps deceiving himself. The Government spending figures he read out imply significant public spending cuts once debt repayments and inflation are taken into account. Everybody realises that, surely? Alistair Darling has prepared us for cuts. The IMF have prepared us for cuts. The only person who doesn't seem to get it is Mr Brown.
We do need a Prime Minister and Government who can grasp this over the next 10 years.
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BBC at it again. Supporting the Tory party. Is it as Andrew Marr said on 'start the week' a few Mondays ago, that journalists are sucking up to the Torys in the hope of earning favours when they get in to power/ Or is it simply that the BBC do not like Gordon Brown? Either way, the BBC's bias towards the Tory Party, absolutley stinks!
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143 - Sorry Susan, that was wrong of me. I have a habit of getting ahead of myself
148 - People make mistakes, we all do. Obama is being spoken of as the best thing since sliced bread or the UK minimum wage, however, half of his cabinet appointments had serious tax problems (Daschle, Geithner, etc). It happens. I know it shouldn't but it does. On that matter, I would rather have a genuine mistake like AD than downright criminality like Blears or Kirkbride/Mackay.
****Off topic but my favourite moment during the expenses row was with Tory MP Douglas Carswell when the BBC asked him if it was right for to spend £700 on a love fertility seat. He responded, " Yes and I can tell you it worked very well". Ha Ha Ha - The sheer brazenness
153 - Why does everyone have it in for Mandy so bad? Sure, first time was a mistake but he was acquitted of any wrong doing on the second offense. He's a magnificent public servant
157 - Of course they would. However, I think they would be a lot more considered and measured in their approach. Tories would be like a soft-p0rn slasher movie with their cuts
163 - What do you want? Substance or Spin? And he hasn't been useless = Terrorist attacks, foot&mouth, swine flu, leading the world's economic stimulus, G20, defining climate-change goals, withdrawl from Iraq, and soon to be - parliamentary reform, new MP's expenses system, recovered economy
169 - Watch the video on Youtube then read the consensus of comments below it. Gordy schooled him
171 - This is the problem we always have in politics. No party is ever allowed to see through their vision to completion. A few bits of bad news here and there and everyone wants to jump of the ship (especially the media who care more about column inches). I'm sure that if Labour gets a fourth term then we will see the fruition of their policies. One could very easily have made a case that John Major could have easily continued in 1997 and led the country on very well. However, the media jumped on the sleaze bandwagon and liked the charismatic new Labour leaders and the rest, as you know, is history. Cameron will come in and abandon all of Brown's policies and Brown will be exiled to history and forever considered a loser. That, in my opinion, will be unfair. Saying that though, life isn't fair as John Major learnt
178 - Don't be such a wise guy. The real sparring had been finished by 1217
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ENJOY THE RECESSION - THE RECOVERY'LL BE AWFUL
So it's going to be another year before we even start to try and balance the country's books!
Nothing much is going to happen in the nettle grasping department till after a General Election - and Brown is clearly determined to drag it out to the bitter end.
The cuts are going to be HUGE! AND there will have to be tax increases as well! There is simply no room for further borrowing. There is going to be a regime of austerity that has not been experienced for several generations. Even with a recovery, it is going to be extremely nasty.
We really should be starting now. The Olympics? Trident? The Navy's new carriers? Scottish, N.Ireland and Welsh subsidies? Foreign aid? Across the board cuts in pensions and benefits? Pay cuts for all public service workers (except police, we'll need them)?
Where will they hit? It's useless talking about productivity gains, streamlining, etc. We're talking about massive job cuts virtually everywhere in the public sector - like the ones taking place in the private sector now. We're also going to have to end inflation-linked public service pensions.
This useless, corrupt Government AND Parliament is incapable of sorting out the mess. And it has no credibility to undertake reform. It MUST go NOW. We must have an immediate General Election.
I'm afraid we will need to be a little more direct in explaining to our politicians that the WE are the masters.
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All this nonsense of 'We've spent this , we've spent that'. Anyone can spend money they haven't got. It's not particularly difficult. We're a trillion and a half in debt for goodness sake. It's high time someone at the top started balancing the books!
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#193 - Its_an_Outrage
Forgive me but I believe purpleDogzzz's comment was:-
"Perhaps if you want to be taken seriously you should present proper reasons why people should vote conservative" - not why you should not vote Labour.
There are other options, you know.
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Spending cuts in Government, now there is a novel idea !! Spending cuts are NOT CLEVER. Both parties promise at every election cuts in public spending, and they deliver nothing. The Tories are the worst on this issue, and they will make any desperate spin statement to get the ear of the voting public.
However, what will inspire me is when the politicians promise us and deliver Leadership and Innovation in Government. Unfortunately, all three main parties are miles away from thinking innovatively.
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Come on BBC.
Its Tory CUTS whilst Nu Labour will TRIM expenditure.
The tax payer will foot the bill no matter what. What will not be cut or trimmed is public service pensions, otherwise known as black hole.
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Can someone explain to me why no one likes Harman or Livingstone, especially the former?
I've always liked HH. She seems very amiable and competent whenever I have seen her talking on TV, and generally get the impression that she works tirelessly for her constituents and the PLP as a whole. I was surprised when her name wasn't mentioned with regard to GB's potential successors.
Same for Red Ken. He seems like a good guy and I was always very impressed when I heard him speak during the 7/7 events. I think there's no way that the Tube mess would have happened on his watch. That's not a dig at BJ but I just think he would have perhaps mediated better with the unions
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#Laughatthetories - if U can not see who I am referring to I will give u a clue - it is NOT Susancroft. Oh, for your info and also that of any other delusional LIEBOUR posters I live in Scotland and I vote SNP so do NOT try to slag me off as a Tory. U folks in England can fight it out as to who u vote for but as an aside it will not be for Clown and Co - corrupt, snout in trough, chucked out of Govt types, TWICE for some people, and re employed by a Presbyterian as a shining light - God help u all down there.
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197. At 6:54pm on 10 Jun 2009, johncarrelson
Thanks for the reply.
Why is it then that Gordon Brown denies that Labour wil cut spending then?
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[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
This clears up today's entire debacle, and it is unforgivable that Nick Robinson has failed to communicate this, knowing full well the details of Alistair Darlings Budget.
The Labour Government has ALREADY ANNOUNCED a 7% REAL TERMS CUT in all departmental spending between 2011 and 2013.
Brown has been telling lies in PMQ's (but what's new there)
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Please, please bring on the Tory cuts!
This country has a staggering level of debt and a massive budget defecit to fund massively wasteful public spending.
What needs to be cut? Simple, most of the public sector drain on this country's resources. Just take a list of civil servants and get rid of half of them, then the rest actually have a chance of being productive.
Given the enormous increases in expenditure by Labour for negligible results surely spendig can also be cut with little effect.
Labour just spray money around like a sailor on shore leave, if the Tory's will cut (and not lie about it like Gordon 'Delusion' Brown) then they get my vote
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205 - I really don't want to answer that question. Can any other Labouristas help me? LOL
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carrelson @ 203
I've always liked HH
and I like you John, now you've said that! ... there's nothing worse than feeling in a minority of one and it's nice that we're now a couple
on the subject of this blog, cuts, I have no objection to cutting spending on the NHS - in fact, I'd go as far as to say we MUST reduce health spending - I also want to see big cuts in spending on the Armed Forces and the Police - both (like the NHS) very inefficient - the areas I'd like to see protected (there's two of them) are Education and International Aid
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SO GORDY THINKS/SAYS HE WONT CUT SPENDING??
EITHER HE IS DELUDED OR THE REST OF US ARE MAD?
THE 12 YEAR BINGE BILL HAS TO BE PAID!!
PITY THE MEDIA ARE NOW DOING REHABILITATION MODE?
NEXT IT WILL BE I AM A CELEBRITY GET ME OUT OF HERE!!
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197 johncarrelson
"The real sparring had been finished by 1217"
==========================================
"Real sparring" ???? I thought your initial analysis was that "Gordy outfought and outgunned him!!"
It was just my observation that your post number 1 made no reference to any of the subjects actually discussed in the first 17 minutes of "sparring". eg Gordons new found interest in electoral reform, savage Tory cuts to the NHS etc. I would have thought given the way Gordy "outgunned" him you'd have mentioned them. Presumably your idea of "outgunning" involves reciting a prepared statement about the economy as a response to questions, no matter what the subject of the question may actually have been. Just another "Wise Guy" observation.
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208 johncarrelson
"205 - I really don't want to answer that question."
Just like Gordy at PMQ's, he doesn't want to answer anything either. You could try and respond Gordy style - just read a prepared statement on the economy or about savage tory cuts and hope no one notices. It's working so well for Gordy, you might as well try it too !
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Its all about getting a balance between private enterprise and public services .Unfortunately we have all been misled and our expectations on what the state can provide,our current expenditure is unsustainable .The reality is who ever leads the next government will need to make reductions in public services .The real discussion should be what we spend our tax expenditure on.If Darling is wrong on his growth figures (I think he is),big reductions might be required pre the general election.
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209 - Glad to know I'm not alone.
Don't agree with armed forces cuts. I think we need to increase resources there if anything. I read recently that there are only four destroyers protecting our coastline
My Cuts -
* Bring back capital punishment. Allow it to be used by judges at their discretion when they think appropriate (terrorists, serial killers). Think how much money that would save?
* Make child benefits/winter fuel benefits means tested by your tax bracket. Ergo, 40% tax bracket don't get it
* Cut off foreign military aid to countries like Israel. Doesn't really help ours or America's case mediating in the M-E when all of Israel's weaponry is supplied by us
* Tax 4x4 drivers obscene amounts. They're all toff tories anyway so you're not losing votes right?
* Privatize the BBC
* Keep the monarchy for sure (Would you want Blair, Brown or Cameron as Head of State) but limit allowances to the Monarch and her nearest 3/4 heirs. I despise watching spongers like Andrew and Edward float about.
Thoughts?
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In fairness, can Burnham be expected to know everything about his department yet? This is why those resigning are behaving badly - they are putting silly party politics ahead of the running of the country. For every Jane Kennedy quitting, there's a department which has to bring a new minister up to speed, re-establish contacts linked to the department and so on. With health being such a big brief, surely Burnham deserves a bit of time?
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#213 - hughesz
If you are right about Darling's figures being over optimistic, I makes you wonder why Brown does not risk going to the country now before things get any worse.
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187 yellowbelly,
Sincere apologies for my error.
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Will 1 party please commit to cutting spending.
As a country we are or soon will be bankrupt and so I want to hear that 1 party at least has the ability to argue that we need to reduce spending.
Or is that asking for a level of honesty beyond our politicians?
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@ johncarrelson
You are clearly an idiot. Anyone who supports this government after what they've done to this country has to be.
Just remember people... No matter who wins, or when they do it, New Labour has not only brought this country to its knees through its reckless and unnecessary public spending programmes & big government, it has also sucked the life out of the people of Britain and introduced a new wave of violent crime, fraudulence and ridiculous political correctness.
Anyone who votes for a party like that must be deluded.
I'm leaving - I'd rather be anywhere but here! Good luck to the Conservatives, though I fear it may be too late.
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jc @ 214
no / yes / yes / yes / no / no ... 50 pc agreement, not too shabby
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souter @ 181
It is reported that the Bullingdon Club Kid has a personal fortune of 33 million
no, not having that - that can't be right - why on earth would he have taken out a 350k mortgage on his second home if he were worth even half of what you're quoting there?
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216
He can't an election now ,he would lose.So he will wait hoping for a miracle next year ,his chances are slim but better than zero.
PS He will also be in paid employment a bit longer .Can't imagine the Yanks paying big bucks to hear him lecture.So he will need the money...
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posh @ 219
I'm leaving
it's the weather (isn't it?) and all the rest is bunk - I'm right, aren't I?
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Spiffing eck! sagamix a whopping 33 million and there's nothing wrong with the mans twenty! twenty vision when it comes to parliamentary claims.
Come on just cut it out Dave! honestly!
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##216. At 9:38pm on 10 Jun 2009, threnodio wrote:
"
#213 - hughesz
If you are right about Darling's figures being over optimistic, I makes you wonder why Brown does not risk going to the country now before things get any worse.
"
But GB also knows if her were to cut and run, the country would believe the worst!
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It comes as no surprise that the Tories are proposing massive cuts in public spending,it is certainly what I expect. However,the outcome could be devastating for an economy recovering from the recession. It would likely lead to an enormous increase in unemployment both in the public and private sectors. The resultant loss in purchasing power within communities would lead to a further fall in demand for goods and services with untold implications for job prospects.Lansley has a little form when it comes to making a fool of himself.I am not sure if it was the last election or the one before that but it was widely reported that he said ' the race card plays well for the Tories'It would be helpful to know exactly where the cuts are going to be applied in order that the voters can assess the impact.
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The seriously frightening thing about all this is Brown might well be around for one more budget before an election, Brown will be pushing Darling into a corner to go for one more spending splurge to win votes and truly consign the UK to bankruptcy and years of high taxes, this is a truly frightening scenario with a PM in total denial about the countries debt.
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#188 yellow
You are priceless yellow. "....but don't let the truth get in the way."
And then you link to the Daily Mail. As I say, priceless.
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219 Poshnanex
I wonder if you could help me with a little research I am doing in relation to the current crises.Could you let me know what proportion of the additional borrowing that has taken place is due to saving some of the banks from total collapse and financial disaster?Do you think it was the right decision?
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178 strictly pickled
and you must be, anyone that watches PMQs would know that Cameron gets 7 questions and they've all been asked and answered by 12.17
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As soon as there is a blog concerning goverment debt the labour apologists seem to bury their heads in the sand. Its a no brainer really, continued labour spending can only mean big increases in the amount of tax we have to pay, they are all a bit shy of this point unless they think money grows on trees like their great leader obviously seems to.
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J.C. various posts??
What the &&&& are you on MR?
How do you think GORDY is going to fix the MESS he in large part CREATED?
AS for reform this is as EVER MERE SPIN. . . .
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217. At 9:41pm on 10 Jun 2009, braveSouter wrote:
187 yellowbelly,
Sincere apologies for my error.
===
No problem.
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THE ONLY GOOD THING ABOUT GORDY HANGING ON & ON IS THAT HE WONT BE ABLE
TO BLAME EVERYONE ELSE FOR THE UNEMPLOYMENT FIGURES IN OCTOBER/NOVEMBER.
JOBLESSNESS & MISERY FOR BRITISH PEOPLE A SPECIAL GIFT FROM nulabour.
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Tories are going to cut inheritance tax if they get in. Doesn't that show you all you need to know about them?
How on earth are they going to pay for that?
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i wonder if you noticed that GB jumped the gun in restoring malik to the cabinet.....he has admitted that the taxpayer had met the costs of office space in his constituency house and his designated second home in London simultaneously. Oh dear GB didnt you check his expenses before reappointing him, too busy trying to score points off the opposition and trying to avoid saying you will have to cut your budget to pay for the debt....
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I believe that shortly before the Parlimentarians secured victory Charles II was moving the regimental markers on the map to counter Fairfax. Cromwell etc, only to be told that the units represents by the bits of wood no longer existed.
I also believe that hours before he committed suicide in his Bunker in Berlin, Adolf Hitler was moving around various mrkers representing Army groups on his map, showing his Generals how the war was to be won, I don't recall if anyone had the nerve to tell him the units had ceased to exist.
Sunday Evening Gordon Brown told his troops about how he was going to change and spreahead a new assault on the Opposition to win power again, then I watched PMQ's today, no change at all. I guess the Labour MPs are more like Hitler's Generals than Charles II's advisors, as it appears no one has the guts to tell him the money has run out, all the little markers are little more than IOU's. Still, I suppose a Labour MP has even less of a future than a Nazi General, and so anything to delay the inevitable seems sensible. Given the cuts I'm already seeing and redundancies in Education etc, I am wondering if it is possible that we go bust before the next Election.
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228. At 10:25pm on 10 Jun 2009, wasowenright wrote:
#188 yellow
You are priceless yellow. "....but don't let the truth get in the way."
And then you link to the Daily Mail. As I say, priceless.
===
Where is your alternative authoritative source to say he is worth that then?
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228. At 10:25pm on 10 Jun 2009, wasowenright
As you have resurfaced on here fresh from your celebrations at getting 15% in the EU elections and coming third behind UKIP, could you finally answer the question I have posed to you several times, do you work for one of the workers' collectives that you espouse so vociferously?,
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braveSouter @ 229
I'm assuming that was a sarcastic comment but I'll bite anyway.
I don't know off the top of my head the amount of additional borrowing, though I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to find out. And no, I don't agree with it. This is why I don't vote - I would never vote for a party who supports the renationalisation of banks, though I used lean Conservative.
Either way... Like I said, I'm off. Preferably somewhere where the government won't take 50% of what I earn. I don't like Toryism under DC, but I do agree that a reduction in expenditure across the board is needed NOW, rather than a spending spree which will cost the taxpayer in the long run.
sagamix @ 223
I used to live in Southern Germany. My decision to move there was primarily based on the weather.
I hear that this summer's going to be a scorcher though ;)
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The difference is that Burnham is in government and has access to the figures... Lansley can only take his word. If the government's past record on the honesty and transparency front is anything to go by, if I were Lansley, I wouldn't believe anything Burnham or his boss says.
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Tories seemingly free ride to power is beginning to unravel. They smugly thought that the British public would hand them power on a plate without any policy commitment or critical scrutiny by the media-which seems so obesessed with unseating Brown that they have suspended all their critical faculties with respect to Cameron and the Tories. Andrew Lansley has spilt the beans on their spending cut which the media cannot ignore. Moreover, Darling's Economic forecasts (much derided by Cameron and Osborne) are beginning to be substantiated by the markets. Shifts in political sentiment often kick of in subtle ways before they become evident. Cameron and Osborne should be worried-very worried !
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NHS CUTS, NOTHING NEW!
Yawn...!
Brown at PMQ just a teensy weensy sign of humility. Confidence boosted now playmates play nice for now. Big Yawn...
Can't stand the Tories, BUT acknowledge Cameron's view on the BNP - if true, and admire his ability as a spot on clear communicator, shame he doesn't talk about his policies, fibs and doesn't work for Labour.
Labour orders - PUT UP THE UNITED FRONT.
Milliband finally broke silence. We need to focus on 'new' ideas rather than a contest. Disappointed with the boy...
Was led to believe these so called professionals had ideas all along, beggars belief!
I thought we had standards, highly educated qualified people as mps. What are these people doing kipping on the front and backbenches?
I suggest set the House of Commons up as Big Brother, where votes and public opinion really count.The phone lines could fund the NHS. You'd only have to wait until the next PMQ to see who's out and who's in.
And another thing...
The media seem to have a five year delay in picking up public opinion, and parliment 10.
In this day and age we can watch the poilitcs, send an email direct to the celeb media journo's and they're still unable to present a reasonably clear picture of public opinion straight from the horses mouth.
Perhaps they need bable fish in their ears...
Other outspoken contributors on this board have suggested this lot live in a world of their own, seems there's a certain amount of conspiracy, in the sense that the media and the government have a love/hate co dependent and parasitic relationship - but really want to be 'together'...
Prove me wrong.
Best wishes...
The Media Hustler
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Apparently Alan Sugar is being brought into Government on Mandy's advice, as he is believed to be the only member of Government with the nerve to say to Brown 'Your Fired'. Remember you heard it here first!!!
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Spliff what a roach of an idea young Dave must be on cloud nine
cuckoo/cuckoo.
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Post 214
Carrelson, Carrelson, Carrelson...
Sounds like you're someone who qualifies under your own rules...
I'd say get a grip, but you probably can't help yourself - where's the LOVE...lol x
You're not alone, dear...
Best wishes...
The Media Hustler
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So Gordon Brown wants to talk about Tory cuts does he? Well how about some of the cuts, unfulfilled promises and public sector waste going on as of today in my area under Labour:
1. 20% budget cut in our local probation service
2. Brand new PFI hospital opened in 2004 - within 6 months of opening the first wards were closed and maternity downgraded to midwife led only, latest casualty is A&E and children's ward. Thank you Gordon, we have a lovely new building but no bloody services!
3. All those extra apprenticeships! We had Sir Alan visiting our region yesterday promoting apprenticeships - the same day my daughter's boyfriend found out that his apprenticeship course will not be continuing next year due to lack of available placements. And this was a real engineering based apprenticeship not a Ronald McDonald one!
4. Education - I'm a school governor and yesterday attended our annual budget review meeting. There is plenty of waste to go at here without shedding a single front line teacher - e.g broadband to school of 260 pupils £3,000 per annum (compulsory service required by LEA) one of our parent governors a local businessman pointed out that he pays £32/month for internet (at 4x speed to school) covering 4 sites (incl.Spain & Holland) for an equivalent number of staff!
5. Support for the young and long term unemployed - don't even get me started on this one - it's none existent. I have daily contact with a larger number of despairing and now desperate teenagers and 20 somethings who just want a chance, any chance, to work to be able to prove themselves as worthwhile and make their own way in this world and we are failing them.
Gordon Brown is an out and out liar - I want politicians to really start coming clean and being honest with the public we're big enough and brave enough to take it and make our choice. Forget MP's expenses, forget electoral reform I want to know transparently how this and any future government is going to spend my hard earned tax pounds and get the best value for it! When someone starts doing that I might start thinking about voting for them.
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@11 sku
"I just wonder where Gordon Brown thinks he is going to get the money from for increasing spending on public services year- on-year"
sir may i suggest you ask gordon brown's chancellor, who told us in the last budget statement that labour would "halve the budget deficit to £98 billion in five years"
exactly how they propose recoup more than £90 billion without making any cuts, is a question gordon brown refused to answer 3 times at his "candid" press conference last week.
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The gall of this particular Labour Government knows no bounds. They rack up a huge and burdening debt and then have the bare faced cheek to accuse the Opposition of having to make Public Service cuts to help pay for it. Along the way they accuse David cameron of doing nothing to ameliorate the situation. It's high time they were forced to sling their collective hooks and swent to oblivion!
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1192212/Race-shame-outrage-Oxford-student-Tories-clap-jeer-N-word-jokes-meeting.html
And you all want them back?
Britain is a far happier and progressive country now with much better social cohesion, and that is down to a LABOUR Government. Do you not remember the class warfare and social division in the 80s?
It's almost ironic that if Flint's "window-dressing" comments apply to anyone it's the Tories. Everyone knows it's an old boys club with little to no tolerance for minorities. You only have to look at the make-up of the shadow cabinet. Sure there's May, Villiers and the insidious and vile Warsi ** but that's it. Compare it to Labour's cabinets over the past 12 years
** With regard to Warsi, I don't think there is anyone more loathsome in British politics than her. Every time I have seen her on TV and the topic raised is either immigration or issues pertaining to the British Muslim community she immediately whips out the race card and shuts down any debate. Horrible woman
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Nick.
We can now all see that both Labour and the Conservatives are working the mantra of one-upmanship in what is going to be a prolonged run-up period NOW in session until the forthcoming General Election is finally called.
Today, at this point in time it is now also the right time to have a sabastical period in the fresh air away from listening to twiddle-dum, and twiddle-dee in the shape of Brown and Cameron, for lets face fact, for they BOTH will now promise the Voting Public ANYTHING necessary just to win Votes, and you know what?, any incumbent Government will do whatever they want to do AFTER the Election, which is of course: the same tired and worn out old Policies on their Agenda's and things as PER-USUAL, and anything else that suits them and never mind what they promised to do BEFORE this up-coming General Election, these promises WILL BE Shelved.
So therefore, Whatever either one of these two Parties might say before any General Election period, such as ie: that they are NOT going to REDUCE any Funding of the NHS, or will even increase Spending in REAL TERMS: Y-A-W-N, for may I suggest that we ALL take ANY promises with a pinch of salt, and remind ourselves that our current Politicians see themselves as Career Politicians whom will not be able to cope with life out-side of Politics in the REAL WORLD, having been made redundant at the next General Election, and further still will find it very hard to live without the needs of working short-time as they ALL now do being only Part - Time, and are well over-paid indeed for their REAL worth.
Remember in Politics it is ALL about WINNING to gain POWER, AND CONTROL and NOTHING ELSE. So they WILL promise you ANYTHING, "ONLY" TO WIN.
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Labour - slightly less racist than the Tories, that's all. As I've said they have the same interests, boxing up and living off underclasses.
At the end of the day, it's all good stuff or nothing would change.
If the BNP hadn't shaken things up, I wouldn't justify the good kicking Brown and Labour get right now, it's something the system needs. Would have preferred the Greens to have an impact and a say, more constructive than the BNP, but unfortunately full of Liberals.
Best wishes...
The Media Hustler
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WHO IS SHE, WHO IS SHE, WHO IS SHE...?
This woman 'Flint' everyone's on about - who is she?
Prefer to hear from the folks - then look her up.
Night, look forward to checkin' in tomorrow.
Best wishes...
The Media Hustler
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Not sure why all the fuss. After years of Brown's tax-and-waste, and the record level of debt caused by labour profligacy, of course there will need to be some cuts.
The real issue is where the cuts are to be made and how to get best value for money.
In the NHS, voters want more money to be spent on providing treatment for patients, not on unnecessary tiers of bureaucracy or bean-counters. People do not want cuts in overall funding for the NHS, but they want the money to be spent on treatment and drugs.
As for cuts elsewhere, the government could save a fortune by scrapping ID cards and Trident.
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230 GA
"and you must be, anyone that watches PMQs would know that Cameron gets 7 questions and they've all been asked and answered by 12.17"
========================================================
Cameron may have asked his 7 questions by 12.17, but anyone who watches PMQs would know that Gordon Brown doesn't actually answer any of them.
So your comment above is half true, which is a considerable improvement on the usual standard of your posts. Well done "Grandy" as JC would say !
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226. At 10:12pm on 10 Jun 2009, braveSouter wrote:
It comes as no surprise that the Tories are proposing massive cuts in public spending
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" Massive " ???
You appear to be spinning a lot there mate
I work in the Public Sector and believe me there is " massive " scope for cuts to save money. Someone earlier made a joke about how many people does it take to change a lightbulb under a Labour Government, i think the answer was 5 ...so true
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250. At 00:44am on 11 Jun 2009, johncarrelson wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1192212/Race-shame-outrage-Oxford-student-Tories-clap-jeer-N-word-jokes-meeting.html
And you all want them back?
Britain is a far happier and progressive country now with much better social cohesion, and that is down to a LABOUR Government. Do you not remember the class warfare and social division in the 80s?
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Would that be why the BNP are gaining more support
Would that be why Labour have done so badly in local elections
Would that be why Labour have done so badly in Euro elections
Would that be why every blog you read at least 90% of people are calling for Gordon to go whilst also expressing dislike for Labour as a whole
Would that be why there is a growing petition for calls for Gordon to go
And so on and so on
Is this the " happy " Britain you mean John ?
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Is it just a coincidence that just at the very point that Gordon Brown looks at his weakest with his own Bob Crowe decides to flex the muscles of his tube workers to demand better pay and conditions in spite of The country's economic position? Just watch as The Unions make hay with the situation to squeeze The Government's pips to the max!
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I have friends who own a company that carries out building work for areas of the NHS. They are open about the waste of money used in the planning and procurement process. For example, if a meeting is schedueled and all turn up apart from a middle manager representing the hospital, the meeting is cancelled and all costs paid for - including those of highly paid consultants that are there to advise the hospital managers. If the meeting goes ahead, rather than reading the minutes and dealing with any points of issue with the consultants that are there acting on their behalf, they insist that the meeting is reheld, again paying all costs.
As for plant and materials, there is no thought of purchasing materials that can be re-used. All materials and any plant required are paid for by the taxpayer at inflated rates above the prices quoted on the tender process which won the work in the first place.
Room for massive savings of taxpyers money.......oh yes!!!
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@ 257
regarding the BNP ... it's unacceptable, in my view, to run a political party of which only white people can be members ... shows how super tolerant we are, in this country, if throwing a few eggs is all that happens
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260. At 08:20am on 11 Jun 2009, sagamix wrote:
@ 257
regarding the BNP ... it's unacceptable, in my view, to run a political party of which only white people can be members ... shows how super tolerant we are, in this country, if throwing a few eggs is all that happens
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I fully agree with your comments Saga, but us Brits have always been known as super tolerant .. Stiff upper lip and all that
But my comments were in response to Johns alternative Britain, the one that doesn't exist.
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It will not matter in this instance of cuts who wins the next election because whoever it is will have make cuts in our services. If the public sector had not increased so rapidly under Labour to unsustainable levels and if the necessary reforms had been made to our services during the 12 years of Labour we would be in a better position to weather the storm. As it is we are not, both Labour and Conservative are making plans to cut services. There is no point in anyone denying this, because it is the truth. Darling himself it is reported has asked Brown to stop saying there will be no cuts because it will become patently obvious that there will be. Government debt is massive and still growing, we are spending well beyond what we are earning and it is foolish to believe this can continue.
What should worry us more is that our debt at the moment is being propped up by Quantitative easing and most probably is the only reason why we have not had to go to the IMF, as this money is being directed mainly into the treasury and not into the wider economy. Quantitative easing is the last tool in our armoury after this there are no fiscal tools available to help. We will in 2010 become a much higher tax Country therefore this will in turn make business less likely to come here and stay here, indeed there are already moves to go to places like Switizerland which is a low taxation Country. It is not the cuts therefore which concern me as I know they will have to happen anyway. It is where will growth for this Country come from, we do not have the City anymore, we have very little manufacturing, small business is suffering badly, the situation could not be worse. The banks are still weak and have no where near the capital they require to return to normal and they still do not trust each other because the toxic assets have not been dealt with.
My thoughts are this and it seems to be the thought of a lot of economists as well. That we will see small improvements towards the end of this year, very small in our economy. However at the beginning of 2010 there will be a further collapse due to our level of Government debt, personal debt, weak banks and lack of fundamental health in our economy. This should worry us more than any cuts which need to be made. The only thing people need to decide on this issue is who it is they think can spend the money available wisely. It is plans to make our economy work for us that I am desperate to hear.
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Give Brown another chance they said, he will change. PMs Questions - Brown blatantly lies saying Labour will not make cuts. What price integrity now the rest of you Labour MPs.
Andy Burnham interiewed by Nick Robinson - oh so out of his depth.
John Denham interviewed on Newsnight - oh so out of his depth.Denham talked and talked and talked until time ran out but never answered the question.
Both Burnham and Denham tried to be like Mandleson but failed miserably.
Why are Darling, Johnson and Miliband so quiet?
Is no one in the media brave enough to tell Brown he is a liar to his face?
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260 Sagamix
You are of course swerving further off from the topic of Andy Burnham not identifying where he thinks Labour's planned spending reductions will come, but it's a free world!
On the BNP, I think you are in danger of falling into the obvious trap of crticising them, and thus increasing their victimhood. The BNP will quite correctly note that many organsiations allow membership based on skin colour (famously the Black Police Officers Association) - so don't try that on them please, unless you are going to object to all of the others as well. Best way to deal with the BNP is to deal with the issues they have latched on to and win the argument. Mr Brown is, I'm afraid, the last perso to understand how to do this, which is why Labour is finished with him in charge.
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Why is it that any reduction in spending is automatically equated to the amount of jobs that would be lost to cover the savings?
If the opposite was true, that every increase in spending directly resulted in increased job numbers then that would be justifiable, but it's not.
Therefore it would be possible to make huge savings without looseing any front line nurses, police, firefighters etc. Maybe loose a few consultants, target managers etc
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1, 3 johncarrelson
Regarding the Daily Politics, mu gripe is that Neil thinks he is a comedian and he continually interrupts. A real Mr Gobby. Still Scots know ita ll, don't they? Ask Gordon.
As for the emails read out by his assistant, Anita, if emails supporting labour aren't there she can't read them. Its not like postal voting where you can make it up.
In the end both Labour and Conservatives are going to have to make swingeing cuts. And all because Brown wasn't prudent and screwed up spending. Heaven only knows what is going to come out of the woodwork on PFI.
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In my opinion the people running our public services have for too long forgotten where the money comes from to run their departments.
I for one am delighted that the Tories are looking to cut the amount that is given to them. By all means maintain the amount given to front line services (health and education) but appoint someone or a body that is going to squeeze the last drop of value out of all public expenditure on the behalf of the tax payer. I am absolutely convinced that this person or body does not exist in the fantasy world of the Labour party and Gordon Brown.
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230 grandantidote
Glad to know you are safe and well.
I see you have resurfaced now that Wonderful Gordon is still in power.
Otherwise notable by your absence.
Regarding Cameron, I think Cameron should go on the attack re public spending. Labour's track record is appalling and will onlyt get worse thus dragging us further into the mire.
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If Gordon Brown expects us to believe that he will invest and David Cameron will cut over the next few years then he's more of a fool than I originally took him for. The man is a serial liar and a blatant one at that!
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A growing population with increasing percentages of aged and lifestyle-induced infirm, many of whom may have made contributions/provisions for their care but who, by definition, no longer can/are.
All to be supported by a workforce that comprises ever few income generators and ever more tax hoovers on pay, pensions and perks. I'm betting the BBC has a BUPA plan as few who comment on social issues actually ever want or need to experience the consequences of those policies that they champion.
So the theory is that the causes and responses are to be simply fudged, and allowed to be so.
Unlike the glint from Mr. Brown's recently enhanced dentition, these are not white lies, but clear abuses that should be called to account.
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I for one congratulate those who stand up and say there will be cuts in public spending, as I don't want to see my children and their children saddled with high taxes to pay for all this government waste.
The government needs to get in the real world, we can't keep spending money we don't have then fire critism at those who want to do something about it whilst they have their head in the sand and promise more spending.
Thank goodness Ed Balls didn't get the chancellors job because with him and Brown in charge the country would be at the point of no return once the elections came round next year. So we done Darling for actually standing up to the bully.
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This is astonishing... Ostensibly the debate seems to be Labour pretending spending can never be reduced regardless of tax receipts and borrowing versus the Conservatives being slightly (but only slightly) more open about their planned cuts. It's quite clear to anyone with half a brain that govt spending has to broadly match govt income, and when income falls spending needs to catch up with that, and sooner rather than later. To blatantly lie to the public that spending doesn't have to be cut is disgraceful, particuarly when Brown in PMQs admitted via his figures that he's already cutting spending in real terms! Maybe someone here can explain to me why lying about your plans while in govt is in any way a better thing than admitting future times will be harder than the recent boom. And finally, it's a mystery to me how a govt that won't reveal its plans (yet runs the country, so must have those plans!) can criticise the opposition for the same thing! I wish journalists would ask some proper questions and bust the insulting and absurd patchwork of lies that our elected servants want to tell us (and btw, that goes for Tories as well, such as Hague's repeated evasion to Paxman about whether Ancram pays his taxes here or not).
No wonder people are disillusioned with politics when all we see is politicians lying to us "to save us from the painful truth"...
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johncarrelson 250
ok John we get the message that you dislike the Conservatives that comes through loud and clear. However please give us without bringing personalities into it why we should vote Labour.
Labour have led us into the biggest Government debt since the last war, Brown changed the strict regulation on the banks in 1997 to the poor FSA which allowed the City to run riot. He had 29 warnings from the FSA that the banks were in trouble and ignorned them. This led to the banking crisis with the credit bubble that was created. He allowed personal debt to rise in spite of warnings that people were not saving enough. Labour have led us into an illegal war costing lives and money, education standards have declined. Violent crime and organised crime has increased and knife and gun crime have been added. Legal and illegal immigration has been allowed to get our of hand which has allowed for the first time the BNP to get a foot hold in our society. The police have become less trustworthy using terror legislation on innocent people. Home grown terrorist have increased because of our foreign policies. Councils and other bodies spy on us 24 hous a day. Our freedoms have been eroded. Then there is the sleaze of Kelly weapons inspector, Mcbride, Damian Green etc. We have rising unemployment because we are a debt ridden society. Not enough Council housing has been built to house people. We have more people on benefits than ever before. Brown destroyed private pension schemes and continues to do so which in turn will mean more people having to rely on the state in old age. He has increased tax by direct and stealth means both personal and for business.
Now I am sure I have forgotton something but I think that is a flavour of why most people will not vote Labour. However I will be interested to hear why you think we should.
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The electorate know at least the Tories are being honest and open. They are like a breath of fresh air blowing through Parliament. Everybody knows about the parlous state of our economy, it is horrendous.The stated intention of the Tories is to ringfence the NHS. Therefore 10 % cuts in other department are inevitable. For Brown to deny these figures is disingenuous because they are based on his own Government's figures. At PMQs, Brown remained in denial (he never fully and honestly answers a question directly on policy) and refused to face facts.He is going to cut all departments by 7% anyway. He is trying to hide this fact. He really is treating the electorate as fools. He and Burnham are obfuscacious.The truth will accelerate Labour's downfall.
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269 sicilian and 271 fastest
Agree with both of you.
The subject of cuts and tax increases has been a topic of discussion with friends and family (of all political persuasions).
All agree that there will have to be cuts and there will be tax increases whoever is in power. The general consensus is that they hope its not Brown.
By saying things will be ok with Labour - no cuts and no tax increases - Labour are considered to be totally our of touch with reality.
Of course with labour its all spin - probably with the Prince of Darkness in the lead.
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Nick,
Your colleague, Stephanie Flanders, has set out quite clearly on her blog that, while he might have got slightly confused over his numbers, Lansley was quite correct about the public spending consequences.
Meanwhile, our 'great leader' was busy creating his latest work of fiction on public finances on which you seem unable to comment, especially considering his recent statements on how he's going to improve his performance as PM.
Priorities are such funny things but it helps being at the leading edge of events to decide what to blog about and I'm surprised that given the fuss you haven't done a follow up to this blog post.
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pilot @ 264
The BNP will quite correctly note that many organsiations allow membership based on skin colour (famously the Black Police Officers Association) - so don't try that on them please, unless you are going to object to all of the others as well
big difference - I have no problem with the BPOA - there must be some colour specific concerns arising from being both Black and in the Police, and a grouping to help deal with those concerns seems perfectly reasonable - last time I looked, the BPOA were not a political party and were not putting up candidates for election to political power in virtually every seat in the country - political parties versus what are effectively "clubs", that's where I'm drawing a distinction - for example, I even have no strong objections (although I disapprove of them) to private groupings which have a white middle class male only membership - the masons, golf clubs, big company boards of directors, that sort of thing
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Can someone tell me whi is actually running Britain?
Is it the elected to parliament but unelected PM Gordon Brown?
Or is it the totally unelected Prince of Darkness, Mandelson?
Whoever it is , neither has a personal public mandate.
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230. At 10:30pm on 10 Jun 2009, grandantidote wrote:
178 strictly pickled
and you must be, anyone that watches PMQs would know that Cameron gets 7 questions and they've all been asked and answered by 12.17
=============================================================
They may have been asked by 12.17, but they've never been answered - ever.
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248. At 00:03am on 11 Jun 2009, denzil69 wrote:
@11 sku
"I just wonder where Gordon Brown thinks he is going to get the money from for increasing spending on public services year- on-year"
sir may i suggest you ask gordon brown's chancellor, who told us in the last budget statement that labour would "halve the budget deficit to 98 billion in five years"
exactly how they propose recoup more than 90 billion without making any cuts, is a question gordon brown refused to answer 3 times at his "candid" press conference last week.
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Is was a typo, Labour is going to try to reduce the budget deficit by five billion in 98 years.
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Labours last budget in addition to the 7-10% accross board cuts also had an additional 15b of cuts/black hole "that might be required" depending on how close to the forecast, these reductions were excluded from all calculations and just hinted at, they had little coverage after the budget.
Aftere all the last budget was a pre-election giveaway budget with nearly every one being 10 pounds or so a month better off.
Just remember, in December Vat goes back to 17.5%, in Jan stamp duty returns, in April NI goes up, 50% and 100k + rules kick in, the 10% tax band returns, council taxes go up, the new pension rules will be finalized for private sector workers.
OH Happy Days!
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Oh I foregot, VAT might return to 17.5% in december but just after the anounced reduction there was a leaked treasury document that stated that the goverment were / had been looking at increrasing it to 20% in 2010!
Given the state of national debt and Browns we will never nevrer cut anything (dispite what his own bodget states) I would put a 80:20 chance that vat will be at 20% the day after the post election budget.
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How about both parties are, but Liam Byrne this morning couldn't give the straight answer required.
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Another smear from Flint
Nothing quite like a woman scorned, and something that just continues giving
Could that be because Nuliebour have lost the argument over funding cuts?
Not answering the questions will not apparently even be suffered by the Today programme...so good on the BBC...but Liam Byrne was there to be crucified this morning and we didn't even get near the cross never mind knocking in the nails or hauling his carcass into the air with an appropriate sign placed
Enjoyed the times leader too
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/anatole_kaletsky/article6473898.ece
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6474725.ece
All those who sniped at Alistair Darling and his failure to get his taxes right should read this article about old Gideon
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John Denham said on Newsnight yesterday that "..you cannot make projections when there are so many uncertainties.." in a response to what the Tories are saying Labour will have to make in spending cuts over the next 4 to 5 years.
Hang on, if that's the case, what is the government basing their investment plans for the next few years on? They bang on about being the party of investment and the Tories the party of cuts, when actually by their own admission, they don't really know what the future holds. And therefore their claims are hot air.
Or am I missing something here?
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ONE big cut that could be implemented with out any real effect for 20+ years is to abolish public sector final sal pensions. After all Brown came into goverment as stole 5billion a year for private sector pensions and then imposed tax and insurance rules that have effectivily killed off ALL private secore final sal pensions and in 1012 i susspect few if any provate companies will pay more than 5-8k into staff pensions when the new rules come into effect.
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As the Prime Minister continues to spend money he hasn't got in a desperate bid to shore up Labour support in their key heartland areas, the mountain of public debt continues to rise and rise; AT SOME POINT the debt will have to be paid and the only ways it can be paid off is by cutting public spending (real cuts, not the virtual cuts that the Tories did between 92 and 97), raise taxation including income tax at the lowest levels as well as those of the middle and higher earners, or a combination of both.
The Prime Minister yesterday stated categorically that there would be no cuts of public spending; as a result, he is committed to raising taxes, massively, and for all sections of society.
I wonder if he would be kind enough to tell the Public what his planned tax increases are?
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If Brown as he states wants a wholely elected house of Lords, how would he be able to make appoitments like unelected Prince of Darkness, Mandelson, or the Im not working for the goverment or part of it sweet Sugar, or I must have a female face from somewhere and appease the old school labour supporters so ill bring G.Kinnock in.
Just 3 of the many examples where Brown has selected / manulipliated new members of the lords to protect his political back side.
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277 Sagamix
I see your point about clubs etc and absolutely agree with you, but surely the BNP are in the clear on this point as well because they are only particpiating in the democratic process of elections? That is, you can vote for them, or not, as you wish. As long as they are legal, and honest in their aims and policies (even if that makes them hateful, dangerous and wrong) then what's the issue? Their arguments can and should be defeated, but it won't help matters to criticise their admin.
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Quite frankly who cares? We know cuts are inevitable whichever colour is in power. It's just poor Gordon jumping on a chance to stir it up for the Tories. He would,wouldn't he?
Now then, IF the National Health is in such dire straits it may dissuade some people travelling across eleven countries to get here.
What also might dissuade those people coming here for our soft touch handouts to all and sundry is:
COMPULSORY NATIONAL SERVICE.
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I don't know how it works in Britain, but here in the States, the US dollar is a fiat currency, and as a consequence, the Federal Reserve can simply create new money out of thin air (i.e., electronically) if the Government is really in a bind for some cash. Yes, this kind of action is highly inflationary.
This is different from what we have currently been doing (and running up a 3.5 trillion dollar deficit in the process), which is selling off US Government bonds to whoever will buy our debt (mostly the Chinese, who keep threatening to dump their dollar reserves for something else, like the euro). I've read that the UK recently closed down one of its government debt auctions because no one was buying.
There's no doubt in my mind that TPTB here in the States (or as my British friends call it, "The Colonies") would embark down the path of printing money if it really needed to. Isn't the British pound also a fiat currency? What's to stop your government from simply printing new money to cover the funding shortfall, especially for a service as publicly important and culturally ingrained like the NHS?
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I was not surprised to see Andy Burnham clueless when asked about numbers. Does anybody remember him waffling away on an interview some time ago, betraying his complete lack of numeracy?; it was cringingly embarrassing as he dug himself deeper and deeper into a hole, using his ignorance as a pickaxe and bluster as his shovel - he got moved sideways soon after.
His presence in the cabinet underlines the paucity of real talent on the labour benches. When I saw the picture of Gordon's "new" cabinet meeting around the table an image of the Muppet Show flashed through my mind. (GB was Fozzie the bear: "Tory Cuts - AaaAAAAaaah!").
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Pilot and Sagamix. The BNP are never allowed a platform to tell the country what they are about because the Labour thugs and henchmen are following them around and inflicting violence on their cars etc.
Bit of an own goal by Labour - yet again.
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#250 go inside the family courts and you will see the cohesion (not) but then you cannot as its all secret so you will not now about what happens nor the scale of the problem.
It was Tony Blair (PM) that though you could give money to councils that was not ring fenced to bring about a facit of the social engineering programme called force adoption. Something that the media has deliteratly kept quite about since around 2000 when it was brought in.
go to the forced adoption web site and read for yourself , then say lady T did things that were worse.
We are talking about taking children away from parents for monetary gain.
(Mr Hitler would have be proud).
The full story of this is not in the open but when it is there will some expensive repercusion for the Tax payers. but hopefully to for the people that were involved in it include Blair and co.
This alone is prima facia reason to vote this lot out and now.
Go onto You tune and see the mum on the run video. A man spent 18 months
in gail for something that another man did, resulting in the SS wanting to take His new born child away.
Utterly disgusting policy by people that are not interested in family and family values and are being very dishonest about what there polices
are about.
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pilot @ 290
well, I'm a bit surprised a whites only Political Party is legal - what if they won? - then we'd have a ruling party with membership restricted on racial grounds ... with due regard to "democracy" and "free speech" I'm not at all sure that should be countenanced
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Why do both Labour and Conservative treat the electorate as fools?
We know the country is bordering on bankruptcy. We know our country is in trouble and we know that whoever is in power over the next few years will have to make cuts.
It's simply history repeating itself so why don't they just get on with it. The quicker they start the better.
They can begin by sacking the multitude of NHS managers, the consultants the Government perpetually spend millions on, MPs expenses, ID cards and all the other bright ideas on which Labour has wasted billions. At least that's a start.
They can follow that up with removing our troops from Iraq and Afghanistan, empty the two prisons filled with foreigners and deport them, stop benefit recipients from sending millions abroad and make all recipients who won't or can't work, work in the community so at least we are getting something for our money.
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@ 155. At 4:55pm on 10 Jun 2009, Laughatthetories wrote:
"Purple
"How can you possibly owe MORE by spending Less?"
Easily - if your income falls by a greater amount than your spending is cut. That's the whole point.
"You have no clue about economics so go and read a few books"
I think you might need to take your own advice on this one."
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If the income falls by a greater amount than the spending cuts, then you CUT MORE!
Of course there will be some increase in borrowing during a recession to pay the increased benefits bill and to cover the deficit in tax receipts, but the most important thing is to cut waste and stop wasting money we don't have on non-essentials and frivolous waste. It is labour that is borrowing hundreds of billions in order to waste more money than any British government in history.
Labour will only BORROW and TAX more. You are the one advocating borrowing your way out of debt, so YOU need to read a bit more.
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Neither Labour nor the Tories are saying anything much about restoring the link between pensions and R.P.I., particularly council tax and utility bills, not to mention the abysmal interest value of any savings. The next general election whenever it comes will be greatly influenced by the "Grey Vote" and there will be many surprises in store I believe.
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One more thing @ 155.
Purple
"How can you possibly owe MORE by spending Less?"
Easily - if your income falls by a greater amount than your spending is cut. That's the whole point."
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The question was aimed at someone who was advocating an increase in Borrowing by labour, and claimed that tory cuts would leave us owing more than a party that wants to borrow EVEN MORE. By YOUR inclusion of the shrinking receipts into that scenario, lets look at the following:
Government A face income reductions of 100billion over the next year. They cut expenditure by 50 billion and meet the other 50 Billion by borrowing 50 Billion.
Government B face income reduction of 100 Billion over the next year, They increase borrowing by 100 Billion.
Who will be REALLY out of the recession first?
I would suggest the Government that borrowed less, for they do not have to repay anywhere near as much as Government B.
SO by cutting more, they owe LESS! Get it?
If the average labour voter cannot even understand that borrowing more = owing more, then no wonder this country is on the rocks!
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Nick
If you want an accurate and unbiased analysis I suggest you read your colleague Stephanie Flanders' latest blog:
"The nominal figures that the prime minister read out to the Commons today were actually new - we hadn't seen the figures for total managed expenditure from 2011-14, though we knew more or less what they were on the basis of Alistair Darling's budget numbers.
"Given the Treasury's own forecasts for inflation and the IFS's forecasts for spending on social security and debt interest over the period, these new figures confirm that if you freeze the NHS and DIFD budgets in real terms from 2011-2013, other spending will see a 10% cut in real terms.
"That's what Andrew Lansley should have said to the Today programme this morning, had he not tripped up on the question of spending for education and whether it was protected.
"The bottom line is that the government's own numbers imply a 10% real cut in spending on other departments between 2011 and 2013, if the NHS and DIFD are protected."
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Re: 262 Susan Croft
Good post, you communicate clearly, thank you. I wish that NuLab politicians would be a little more honest and frank with the public.
A response from a NuLab representative on your points would be most welcome. Any Takers?
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Excellent post @ 162. chrisworriedvoter.
I would not waste my time trying to explain it in those terms, however. The labour voter or two that posts here cannot even grasp the reality that debt has to be repaid. They obviously believe that Gordon Brown has a magic money tree in the back garden of Number 10.
Brown is desperately trying to re-inflate the debt bubble. I would far sooner see the country re-inflate the production bubble to produce and manufacture goods and services for export to create real revenue to grow our way out of recession. Every pound earned in productivity can be spent, reinvested in the country's infrastructure. Every pound borrowed has to be repaid, WITH INTEREST. So Borrowing gives a gross negative return to the economy. It is what one should do ONLY as a last resort. (Unless one runs policy on behalf of the global banking elite instead of the electorate)
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I am sick and tired of our politicians dodging the question. We have a budget deficit that will HAVE to be closed and NO prediction of growth says that we can do that without either real cuts or at the least a reduction in the growth of spending.
I may not like the truth but I'd have a damm sight more respect for anyone who told the truth.
Gutless politicians who refuse to face reality are the real object of my contempt (although expenses does not help.. ). If there is one reason to say 'none of the above' its this - for goodness sake try having a bit of backbone..
Try this
Churchill- 1940 ' I have nothing to offer you but blood, toil , sweat and tears'
Brown/Cameron/Clegg - 2010 ' I can offer you anything you want and it won't cost you a penny in taxes'
The truth eh ? works for me ..
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86 ghostworld
Perhaps you should read once again Susan Crofts 50 were she says to JC,
#Perhaps if you want to be taken seriously you should present proper reasons why people should still vote Labour,
Thats not insulting?.
I write
Perhaps if you want to be taken seriously you should present proper reasons why people should still vote conservative.
That is insulting?.
Are you for real?
Susan Croft certainly doesn't need you to defend her she dishes out more than enough insults of her own to anyone that doen't agree with her.
So if you and she can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen.
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"Austerity" is to be revisited.
Those not present during its first visitation are in for a few surprises.
Surely, there is no one left in the UK who has not realised there is to be a day of reckoning after borrowing all that money?
What interests me is who will be in power when the banks start repaying the borrowed billions? Happy the Chancellor of that party. Ironic if it's the Tories.
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I was beginning to ask myself just what kind of fools does the Prime Minister take us for? After reading the intellectual musings of johncarrelson I'm inclined to say problem solved.
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Gordon Brown and the truth went their separate ways some times ago - despite his protestation about his presbyterian conscience!!
Come on Gordon - for once in your wretched premiership tell us the actual truth - which is that cuts will have to be made in real spending if we as a nation are ever to get out of debt.
Trouble is that the REAL PM (Mandy) wont let him!!
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johncarrelson
Still waiting for an answer john to my 273.
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#309
Susan, your young age doesn't allow you to remember the dreadful acts carried out by the last tory government. They also came into power by not releasing any policies. It's what the tories do! they don't want to be challenged on their cuts and their aims to enrich the rich more.
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I see that Labour are once more banging on about Tory "inheritance tax cuts for millionaires" when they know full well the principal beneficiaries of the Conservatives proposals re raising the IT tax threshold (and for that matter the Labour proposals which were coincidently announced one week after the Tories) are not millionaires but the families of those whose estates fall between the current threshold of £325000 and the proposed new thresholds. If this can be descibed as "tax cuts for millionaires" then surely the same would apply to Labour's cut in VAT. After all I'm sure there are a fair number of millionaires who have saved more on VAT (on their private yachts and luxury cars) than most families earn in a year!
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Earthlings want the truth, not labour spin, labour lies, and not labour briefing against their own ministers.
Here are the facts, straight and simple: -
1. The country has huge labour debts that need to be paid for.
2. VAT will be returned to it's original level.
3. Taxes will be raised and spending will be cut.
4. These are facts regardless of which party is in power.
The UK deserves honest straight talking politians.
Let's demand an end to double talk and spin.
At PMQs the speaker should force the PM and MPs to answer the questions they are asked, directly and truthfully.
It's only on Draxor VII that it is legitimate for MPs to have two faces, (they also have forked tongues but that's for recreational purposes only).
In the UK we want MPs to have a single face, one that can be trusted.
Rats out.
Reality in.
Vote Zim
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grandantidote 305
Read my posts and you might see I have given plenty of reasons why we should not vote Labour and vote Conservative or Lib/Dem depending on who you favour. I have written two this morning on policy.
All your posts are nasty and accusing people of things they have not done. You need to clean your own act up before you accuse anyone else of insults.
Your still have not answered the question of how you propose to solve our Government debt without cutting services. I notice you avoid those kind of posts that ask difficult questions.
I am not particularly interested in whether you agree with me or not, so I do not know where you get that one from.
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89 sweet anybody
#And how we laughed. I'll tell you what grand - I could have done a better job that gordon has over 12 years, simply by leaving things were in 1997.
Well no less than I would have expected from a closed mind Tory.
You may not have felt any benefit from Labour since 1997 but millions of others have, incuding the extra two million more who are still employed despite the recession, I think possibly all the nurses Doctors Policemen Schoolteachers Mums and Dads on extended maternity leave, the mothers picking up there family allowance , those on family credit the pensioners with money to pay their electricity and gas bills,have apreciated the change, need I go on. I guess you don't fall into any of those categories and being a Tory I don't suppose those people are of any interest to you, You just worry about your pension old chum, and have a good laugh at your ignorance.
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No Nick..Labour has told you that ar not going to purposely cut funding for the NHS. When there is a recession on I need my services even more..I rememebr the bad old tory days and how my mother had to wait so long for a hip operation...2 years... I didnt vote labour in the local election but now ther tories have shown they are cutting the NHS and that will directly effect my life. Mt grand parents after World War Two created this for our people. It s time Nick you started asking David Cameron questions on his policies instead of yor hate campaign against Labour. SAY NO TO TORY CUTS... I remeber how bad you treated the people on wards ...no way David Cameron..I dont like Gordon Brown but when it comes to the NHS I will vote Labour to prtect it from Tory cuts. Its distgusting and todat they have the nerve to say Labouur is juvenile over cuts..well the Tories can afford to go private. This has so annoyed me!!!
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305. At 11:08am on 11 Jun 2009, grandantidote wrote:
86 ghostworld
Perhaps you should read once again Susan Crofts 50 were she says to JC,
#Perhaps if you want to be taken seriously you should present proper reasons why people should still vote Labour,
Thats not insulting?.
I write
Perhaps if you want to be taken seriously you should present proper reasons why people should still vote conservative.
That is insulting?.
Are you for real?
Susan Croft certainly doesn't need you to defend her she dishes out more than enough insults of her own to anyone that doen't agree with her.
So if you and she can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen.
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There was nothing in the slightest bit insulting in Susan's post dear boy, and i'm fully aware Susan does not need my backing up of her, as she is perfectly putting her point across by her own efforts.
What heat are you talking about, it appears the heat is anyone who disagrees with yourself and John
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So the great early election / dissolution of parliament motion got nowhere then!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8092624.stm
Labour politicians were not overwhelmed by twangs from their consciences to bring everything to head, or at least not over and above the idea od staying in a job for a few months longer.
But actually, I think that does the Tories a favour and gives them a chance to get themselves properly prepared to take on the role of government at a very difficult time.
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310. At 11:23am on 11 Jun 2009, derekbarker wrote:
#309
Susan, your young age doesn't allow you to remember the dreadful acts carried out by the last tory government. They also came into power by not releasing any policies. It's what the tories do! they don't want to be challenged on their cuts and their aims to enrich the rich more.
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What has age got to do with it, i wasn't around when the Beatles were still together, but i know a lot about them
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310. At 11:23am on 11 Jun 2009, derekbarker wrote:
#309
Susan, your young age doesn't allow you to remember the dreadful acts carried out by the last tory government. They also came into power by not releasing any policies. It's what the tories do! they don't want to be challenged on their cuts and their aims to enrich the rich more.
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I'm not surprised they don't want to release some policies, when they do Labour tend to nick them
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#310 wrote this about The Conservatives:
'they don't want to be challenged on their cuts.'
And you don't think this comment also applies to Gordon Brown. Do me a favour!
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ghostworld 86
I want to make it clear I am very grateful for you intervention and I am sorry it has caused you hassle from others.
My intention on here is only to give an opinion on political matters but it sometimes seems you cannot do this without people wanting to bring you down for no reason.
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Well we know how the conservatives will sort out the NHS we will have the absolute minimum basic services
They will privatize most of parts then we will have to take out private medical insurance for the extras this will put allot of operations and treatments that you get now on the NHS private only
I have been through conservative NHS and it as taken 12 years of Labour to get the NHS back to somewhere near it should of been in 1990
How are the conservatives going to pay for the IHT changes they are planing
as far as I can see it is going to fall on the working man and woman and not those who have money
INT change is going to give away £600m to £4.5 billion for the top 10% of people
they are going to cut deeper and it is going to be those who have least who will pay the most
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"292. At 10:15am on 11 Jun 2009, r00t61 wrote:
I don't know how it works in Britain, but here in the States, the US dollar is a fiat currency,"
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SHHHHhhhhhhhhhhh! The Powers that be, do not want people to know that the money they work SO HARD for is actually completely valueless. You are correct, the central banking model is one of fractional reserve banking based on a fiat currency backed by nothing other than a meaningless promise to pay (what?) at an undisclosed point of time...
Actually, on the face of British banknote it says, I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of.... a number ... pounds. SO there is a time (on demand), however the promise is NOT fulfilled. I know someone who went to the bank of England with a genuine, crisp, new 20 pounds note and demanded, as the bearer of the note, that she relinquish the note in return for the promised 20 pounds. She was arrested.
So when they state on the note I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of 20 pounds, what actually is it? They are promising to pay the bearer 20 pounds OF WHAT? What value changes hands with a 20 pounds note? NONE! It only costs 4p to make a 20 pounds note, so, where is the value? 20 pounds of WHAT? electronic money is essentially free.
The fractional reserve nature of the Central Banking system means that for every pound deposited with the bank, another nine can be lent into circulation at interest. The money never existed, but was created out of thin air to service the loan. The interest repayable on the loan is NEVER created at all. Think about that. When the bank issues NEW money into circulation as a loan, the interest owing on that loan is NEVER created. The TOTAL AMOUNT REPAYABLE IS NEVER CREATED.
That is why we are all running round trying to find scarce money. Because there is never enough money created to service the loans, BY DESIGN!
Think about it. IF we have the power to create money out of thin air, (and we do) then why is there debt? The Government COULD have the power to issue enough new money to pay off all our debt. Instantly. They COULD issue government backed money as loans without interest, but they never do, because the CENTRAL BANKS will never allow it and it is the CENTRAL BANKS that control the governments in the nations in which they operate.
Governments do not work for US, they work for the central banks! When you realise that, then everything the government does from then on, makes a sick sort of sense. Every BILL presented by Government, is a security upon which money can be borrowed against.
A BILL before Parliament becomes a statute (contract) whereby the people who consent to the legal Act (which the statute becomes) agree to pay a fine if their behaviour (by action or inaction) breaches the terms of that Act. The Government use Bills to raise revenue, to repay the amount owing in interest (that was never created in the first place) on their loans from the central bank. That is why we have had an average of a new law everyday since labour came to power. They borrow some money from the bank pledging security in the form of the expected revenue generated from the BILL placed before Parliament.
We have been creating laws in this land for thousands of years. Have we not yet created enough to protect our interests to the extent that we still need the creation of a new law every day? AND remember, ignorance of the law is NO DEFENCE under the law (unless you are a labour MP apparently) Does anyone reading this know EVERY LAW? There are thousands of them all written in legalese. A language that looks like english, but in reality the words have different meanings in the legal world. For example, when a policeman arrests you and states what ACT you allegedly breached, he then asks "Do you understand?"... That question, in the legal world, does NOT mean, do you comprehend and rationally accept the reason for your arrest? No. It means do you STAND UNDER? or do you willingly grant me authority OVER you and do you agree to consent to the terms of this Act?
We have enough laws and have had for hundreds of years! Common law already accounts for every eventuality. Do not cause harm, injury or loss. That is ALL we need. Now we have thousands of statutes that demand payment even when a crime has NOT been committed.
A woman was fined for feeding the ducks some bread in her local park! WHO WAS HURT BY THAT? She was fined for littering. Where was the evidence? THERE WASN'T ANY BECAUSE THE DUCKS ATE IT ALL!!!
This country appears to be insane, until you realise WHY!
Nobody hurt, harmed, no injury, inconvenience or trouble caused, but you are still fined, often unlawfully fined on the spot. (enforced forfeiture without a trial is unlawful). This is why we have so many new and stupid "laws".
What are these "laws" for? They are NOT being created to help us, keep us safe or improve our lives. They are solely for the private corporation known as the UK Government to raise revenue to repay the non-existent interest (that was never created) on the loans created out of thin air of a currency which has NO value. How insane is that?
But do not believe me. Look it up for yourselves.
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314. At 11:33am on 11 Jun 2009, grandantidote wrote:
89 sweet anybody
#And how we laughed. I'll tell you what grand - I could have done a better job that gordon has over 12 years, simply by leaving things were in 1997.
Well no less than I would have expected from a closed mind Tory.
You may not have felt any benefit from Labour since 1997 but millions of others have, incuding the extra two million more who are still employed despite the recession, I think possibly all the nurses Doctors Policemen Schoolteachers Mums and Dads on extended maternity leave, the mothers picking up there family allowance , those on family credit the pensioners with money to pay their electricity and gas bills,have apreciated the change, need I go on. I guess you don't fall into any of those categories and being a Tory I don't suppose those people are of any interest to you, You just worry about your pension old chum, and have a good laugh at your ignorance.
==================================================================
Who said I was a tory? I'm just a normal taxpayer so every benefit I may have received from this government I have paid for several times over, and am waiting for the huge bill to arrive on my doormat once gordon has left office. BTW, that same bill is going to go to people on family credit, doctors, nurses etc too.
I also agree that pensioners deserve a good standard of living, but I guess from your closing comment you don't think that includes any who have paid into a private pension only to have Gordon steal a big chunk of it to pay for his pet projects. Your inconsistent view on this matter during your rant sounds like the pathetic politics of envy to me.
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Mr Hain (who should not even be in the cabinet) has demonstrated how far out of touch labour are when he stated, "All politicians had been sent a message at the European elections to "clean up, shape up, and come back to us when the problem is fixed"
No Peter. The electorate sent all politicians the message that they DO NOT WANT LABOUR AS THE GOVERNMENT ANY MORE!!!
THAT is why labour was only supported by FIVE PERCENT of the public last Thursday.
Labour, the five percenters!
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321. At 11:51am on 11 Jun 2009, Susan-Croft wrote:
ghostworld 86
I want to make it clear I am very grateful for you intervention and I am sorry it has caused you hassle from others.
My intention on here is only to give an opinion on political matters but it sometimes seems you cannot do this without people wanting to bring you down for no reason.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
No worries Susan
As someone else said earlier
Ad Hominem attacks, appear to be the norm of Labour and it's diminishing supporters
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Some bloggers on here go on and on about the improvements made to The Public Services under Labour. It was all done on the back of an enormous and false credit bubble which we will have to pay for at least a decade. Much of it in addition was chucked at wasteful and expensive projects which never materialised. Welcome at the time granted but noone could ever have realised how much the warm feeling generated by this spending would cost us in the long term.
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There probably isn't much difference in the scale of the cuts in public spending that any of the parties would have to make if they win the next election or where they would be made. Labour would delay them as long as possible until the IMF, the ECB and currency speculators force them into action. The Tories would grasp the bunch of nettles immediately and make a start on rebuilding the country's broken finances...resulting in a worse confrontation with public sector unions than we saw after the demise of previous Labour governments. Voters can either bury their heads in the sand and vote Labour, or get real and vote Tory....what a choice!! It would be encouraging if the Lib Dems could offer a realistic alternative but they can't.
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Everyone knows that there are going to have to be painful cuts and tax rises after the next election. All the focus on the 50p tax band has distracted attention from the fact that last November's PBR announced that NI was going to rise as well, something that will hit everyone in Britain especially the lowest earners. Labour's claim that you can't reduce public spending because essential services will be decimated is laughable. I work in a public sector agency. In the last few years there has been a big increase in staff but most of these have been admin and support staff who just simply make up the little empires of middle managers and spend most of the day staring at Facebook and Bebo. I promise you that I could selectively cull at least 33% of all public sector workers in Britain and people would not notice the difference in service delivery!
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Nick,
The whole purpose of the Labour strategy is to associate the Conservative Party with the term 'Cuts'. If in fact the term can be applied equally to both parties, then it is incumbent upon you and your media colleagues to ensure that this is disseminated as widely as possible, otherwise it will appear that the media is simply reiterating Labour smears.
It is obvious to me and to most other reasonable individuals that cuts in public services are inevitable, no matter how much money we borrow from other governments or investors. What the media now have to do is to help the public to decide who will manage the process best (i.e. minimise waste and maximise efficiency), and simultaneously get us back on track as far as the economy is concerned. On past record, the Broon government is not able to achieve either. On this count alone, that is reason enough to call for an election. When you add in the sleaze factor, this Parliament needs to be humanely culled. Before any NuLab supporters go ballistic, this does not rule out the possibility of a Labour government, not that I would recommend such an outcome.
Cheers
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#309 /273
I'm still awaitng an answer too about what johncarrelson thinks about the family courts and the IN-justice that resides within, when
johncarrelson believes that Zanu-labour is about justice ???????????
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Derekbarker 310
Hello derek nice to hear from you again.
I am in no way absolving the last Conservative Government from the mistakes they made. However it is the economy on which all our lives depend for jobs, benefits, services etc. I am afraid that both under this Government and the Labour Government of the 70s they have brought Britain to its knees. Thatcher love her or hate her turned the economy around, it was only really recovering in 1997 when Major left Government. This Government has had 12 years of unpresidented growth and could have achieved great things and got our people back to work. Instead we have more people on benefits and reliant on the state than ever before. Now because of their spend policies of which we see very little improvements in services for the money spent we are in a worse position than in the 70s.
Someone must turn that around and as the Conservative have a good record on the economy it seems to be a reasonable bet they can do it again. I know Labour cannot.
However as I have said before it is not the only reason I have for not voting Labour. Two of the biggest for me are the illegal war and education.
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99 susan croft
How dare you suggest that my remarks concerning Flame Patricia's son were obectionable, My remarks regarding her son were in support of her son, not of the mother who considers that she can declare to the World the way in which her son votes I don't condemn her for it I just think that she was ill advised. Its not called a secret ballot for nothing,
the lad goes into a closed cubicle like the rest of us despite his handicap and makes his mark on his choice, that is his business and his alone thats not an insult thats a compliment to the lad and I for one applaud him for it.
I had a disabled son myself who unfortunately didn't reach a age when he could vote but if he had, in the same way as my other children do he would have made his own mind up and certainly not intentionally influenced by me or his mother.
I'm not suggesting that Patricia does influence his choice, I leave that for you and others to form your own conclusions but as I said before he could say that he voted for Alf Garnet if he wanted, its a secret ballot and he deserves his privacy thats His right, the disabled unfortunately have few rights but those he has are his business and his alone.
Also as I think that I have told you before I am now disabled as is my wife so hardly the candidates for disrespecting other disabled people, more for the rights of disabled people, remember the "does he take sugar" you can be over protective you know.
Anyway I wish the lad well as I have since the first time Patricia told me that she has a disabled son.
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Does anybody know the extent of the debt which GB has concealed by pushing it "off balance sheet". A job for Stephanie Flanders, maybe?
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324 purpleDogzzz
Please tell me more about enforced forfeiture without trial and its illegality.
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"which figures are you using for unemployment ?? have you included all those on incapacity benefit or are you being Labour selective with your stats.
That incapacity benefit fiddle started in the 80s when the mines were closing. The unemployment figures were still high though. Its the conservatives who seem to have been selective with the stats only using them when it suits them to do so. They were all legitimate claims before mid 1997 I suppose.
At least Invader Zim is quite funny(not a vogon by any chance? PTTP?). His list of comments is a very interesting read. If a hurtful in one case £
I was only trying to be helpful£
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I have always voted Labour but may actually vote Conservative next time. Reason: The Tories are likely to attempt to pay off the massive debts more quickly than Labour. This could be a good thing, ie, suffer the pain for shorter period. The thought of crippling national debt re-payments for 30 years is unbearable.
Oh, another reason, there aint a credit card thickness difference between New Labour and the Tories as far as I'm concerned ! If you must go Tory, then may as well have the real thing.
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In PMQs, Brown stated that he had increased pubic spending since the last budget.
What he did NOT note, was that this has been done seimply by
1. Huge increases in benefit payouts
2. Huge increases in debt repayments.
Public spending on REAL matters is down, probably by 7%, as a result of the budget. For Brown to spin otherwise is revolting, for Robinson not to point this out is, as ever, expected. After all, it is clear that the BBC does NOT want a Conservative administration, that might want them to justify THEIR spending from the public purse, their outrageous salaries and pensions.
Cameron needs to bite harder on this, and hold the liar Brown to account at every opportunity
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Well at least Shahid Malik is proving to be consistant.
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"which figures are you using for unemployment ?? have you included all those on incapacity benefit or are you being Labour selective with your stats.
That incapacity benefit fiddle started in the 80s when the mines were closing. The unemployment figures were still high though. Its the conservatives who seem to have been selective with the stats only using them when it suits them to do so. They were all legitimate claims before mid 1997 I suppose.
At least Invader Zim is quite funny(not a vogon by any chance? PTTP?). His list of comments is a very interesting read. If a hurtful in one case £
I was only trying to be helpful£
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Forgive me if i am wrong in this instance, but i could have sworn i read a while back that it was Labour who decided not to include Incapacity benefit claiments in the overall unemployment figures
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#33
Susan, The economy has been turned around.Susan the tories want you to accept over 3 million unemployed and under value those who do work, with poor pay and conditions.
Susan the whole political argument now! centres around the ideals of investments by labour or cuts by the tories.
What does your morale compass tell you Susan, should we return to high unemployment and low value conditions or do we as a nation work together
and continue to keep a progressive agenda on the table.
By the way Susan.....XXX
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260 Ghost
".. us Brits have always been known as super tolerant .. Stiff upper lip and all that"
An early runner for the YellowBelly Slightly Blinkered Post by a Tory award - this is the nation that forced homosexuals to have hormone injections then locked them up in the 1950s. Whilst we have many things to be proud of (real ale, cricket etc), tolerance hasn't always been top of the list
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Garvie
"The electorate know at least the Tories are being honest and open"
Ha ha ha ha - which bit of the electorate would that be? The Bullingdon Club?
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333 - What planet are you on?
Far more people will be in jobs under a Labour Government. Tories will come in, get rid of all of Brown's policies and prolong the recession. Thus, more unemployment and more people on benefits
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SmugGhost
"Ad Hominem attacks, appear to be the norm of Labour and it's diminishing supporters .."
So who wrote 'You really are an obnoxious individual.." on this blog? You I think.
Hypocrisy?
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Politics doesn't have to be about lies, spin, negative briefings, excess and greed.
Here are the facts: -
The UK has an almost unimaginable burden of debt that will hobble the nation for years to come.
The UK must start paying off the debt sooner or later.
To pay off the debt taxes will rise and spending will be cut.
Any political Party in power after the next election will need to tackle the issue of debt.
Labour is about the unemployed they close the stable door after the horse has bolted. They cultivate and cosset their core vote.
The conservatives are about business and industry. The stable door is already closed in advance and the unemployed will have the opportunity to be re-employed.
The best way for us to clear the debt is to cultivate industry and business, ensure future prosperity through trade and reduce unemloyement.
We need politicians to start telling the truth.
We need them to put an end to spin.
We need them to speak the same language as the people of this nation.
We need the speaker to force the PM and MPs to answer questions directly and truthfully.
We dont need any more lies.
We dont need the PM and MPs dodging questions.
We dont need the PM and MPs spewing jargon.
The Hollow Man - Gordon Brown - does not see the mistakes he has made, he does not hear the calls for him to step down or the roar of public anger, he refuses to talk about the real issues.
Gordon Brown is the political equivalent of the three wise monkeys.
Lets hope that Alan Sugar still has a backbone and doesnt become a cringing, fawning lackey.
Tell it to Gordon straight.
Tell him he is fired.
Let the public hear it too.
Now that would be sweet.
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grandantidote 334
I dare and I do stand by what I said about your post about flamepatricia. I invite anyone to read post 93 on 'call for a debate' and not come to the same conclusion. No amount of twisting things around will change what was originally written.
You still have not answered the question I posed, how do you propose to bring down Government debt if you do not cut services.
Now please either stick to the debate and answer the question or just leave me alone.
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@ 303
The labour voter or two that posts here cannot even grasp the reality that debt has to be repaid
the reason we can't "grasp" this is it's not correct - government debt has to be SERVICED which is quite different - the consensus is that a debt level of around 40 pc of GDP is comfortable and the only real debate is how quickly we look to get back to that - nobody in mainstream politics is proposing paying back ALL of the debt, are they? - this is not the great philosophical divide of an issue that it's often made out to be - the clowns will target a slightly quicker payback is all and (IMO) they won't seek to protect the most vulnerable quite as much as Labour will - the other salient point to note is most of the above 40 pc of GDP debt comes from the banking bailout (a necessary evil) rather than profligate spending on public services - there's a grain of truth in the latter but it's a relatively marginal factor which is being rather sexed up in certain quarters
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Gordon what on earth is that stench?
Oh no it's Brown Brown Brown!
That stain on the labour front bench!
We know it's Brown Brown Brown!
You languish in the mess you've made!
Good god it's Brown Brown Brown!
Wake up and smell the schemes you've laid!
We've stepped in Brown Brown Brown.
For goodness sake Gordon please stand down.
We need an end to Brown Brown Brown.
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Gordon what on earth is that stench?
Oh no it's Brown Brown Brown!
That stain on the labour front bench!
We know it's Brown Brown Brown!
You languish in the mess you've made!
Good god it's Brown Brown Brown!
Wake up and smell the mess you've laid!
We've stepped in Brown Brown Brown.
For goodness sake Gordon please stand down.
We need an end to Brown Brown Brown.
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337. At 12:24pm on 11 Jun 2009, dhwilkinson wrote:
"which figures are you using for unemployment ?? have you included all those on incapacity benefit or are you being Labour selective with your stats.
That incapacity benefit fiddle started in the 80s when the mines were closing. The unemployment figures were still high though. Its the conservatives who seem to have been selective with the stats only using them when it suits them to do so. They were all legitimate claims before mid 1997 I suppose.
_________________________________________________________________________
Yes it was only in 1997 the real figures came out about incapacity benefit and Labour have made it even harder to claim and more checks on those who claim it
Under the Tories you only had to face a medical every 8 years but under Labour you have a medical every year to see if your claim is valid
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342. At 12:49pm on 11 Jun 2009, derekbarker wrote:
#33
Susan, The economy has been turned around.Susan the tories want you to accept over 3 million unemployed and under value those who do work, with poor pay and conditions.
Susan the whole political argument now! centres around the ideals of investments by labour or cuts by the tories.
What does your morale compass tell you Susan, should we return to high unemployment and low value conditions or do we as a nation work together
and continue to keep a progressive agenda on the table.
By the way Susan.....XXX
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?????????????????????????????????
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343. At 12:49pm on 11 Jun 2009, Laughatthetories wrote:
260 Ghost
".. us Brits have always been known as super tolerant .. Stiff upper lip and all that"
An early runner for the YellowBelly Slightly Blinkered Post by a Tory award - this is the nation that forced homosexuals to have hormone injections then locked them up in the 1950s. Whilst we have many things to be proud of (real ale, cricket etc), tolerance hasn't always been top of the list
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Why do some people if you so much as challenge their political party ..suddenly accuse you of being " Tory " ... I do not believe i have even hinted let alone stated which political party i support
I also can't fathom how my comment of stiff upper lip has spawned your comments with regards homosexuals.
Perhaps you can expand and qualify your remarks old bean
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There are any very few organisations of any size that will not only bear a reduction of 10% in costs but are often improved by this. Politicians must grow up and talk openly and honestly about the reality and even the opportunity that the recession has forced upon us.
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325 sweet anybody
Your inconsistent view on this matter during your rant sounds like the pathetic politics of envy to me.
You couldn't be more wrong on both counts I don't consider it was a rant, if someone answers you with some facts in a rational way then only people like you [Who said I'm a Tory] could think it was, if I had carried on for about another five hundred words on the good things that Labour have done for this country then that might have been a bit of a rant.
Secondly I am not quite sure what you,that is you in particular, consider the politics of envy, do you imagine that I envy you. no that can't be true I don't know of anything about you to envy, I would be lying if I said that I have had no envy in my life as would every one on these posts if honest I was envious of those who had children who were fit and healthy I lost my first at birth and my second at seven years old although I loved them dearly, was I envious of those with fit healthy children, you can bet your life I was, I have been envious of those that have had a good education whereas I had a appalling education,I am envious of the many people that I have met in my life who became millionairs and yet were to lazy to get of their backsides they had the luck, that I envied, and so on I envy these things but under no circumstances do I begrudge them their good fortune, I have had a damned good life, I have a wonderful wife, and I am certainly not well off but I am happyand honest with what I've got, and don't have a pathetic envy of politics in my mind, I'am happy to confess that I have wished for better, are you honest enought to do the same?. Your heartbreak over losing you pension should tell you something.
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345. At 12:51pm on 11 Jun 2009, Laughatthetories wrote:
Garvie
"The electorate know at least the Tories are being honest and open"
Ha ha ha ha - which bit of the electorate would that be? The Bullingdon Club?
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it would be the electorate that are currently wiping out the Labour party i would presume ... Keep up with the news
I do believe old Tony and many of his party also attended some posh schools ... Check out old Harriets backround
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With reference to 343 - Ghostworld.
Thank you for your kind comments.
Unfortunately when my Babel-fish translated the word Vogon, it came out as Underpants.
I can categorically refute the suggestion that I come from the 7th planet of the Sol system.
I do know, however, that Gordon Brown and his policies do originate from the said 7th planet.
Remember ------Vote Zim
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@345
Which part of the electorate? Well let me think, maybe the vast majority of us who just voted anyone but labour at the council & euro elections!!
I would laugh at labour, but unfortunately their unbelievable stupidity is more likely to make me cry....
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@344 grandantidote
Your posts are probably being referred on the grounds of insanity since they are pro-labour!
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342. At 12:49pm on 11 Jun 2009, derekbarker wrote:
#33
Susan, The economy has been turned around.
------------------------------
Ruined, you mean.
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347. At 1:00pm on 11 Jun 2009, Laughatthetories wrote:
SmugGhost
"Ad Hominem attacks, appear to be the norm of Labour and it's diminishing supporters .."
So who wrote 'You really are an obnoxious individual.." on this blog? You I think.
Hypocrisy
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What is smug about the comment ?
I was stating a personal feeling that another poster was appearing to sound rude to another poster .. Just an my own personal observation
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346. At 12:59pm on 11 Jun 2009, johncarrelson wrote:
333 - What planet are you on?
Far more people will be in jobs under a Labour Government. Tories will come in, get rid of all of Brown's policies and prolong the recession. Thus, more unemployment and more people on benefits
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Strange ilogical comment John considering people are losing their jobs left right and centre ... As i said before how are you measuring unemployment under Labour, i believe they don't even count those on incapacity benefit in their figures
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Are some of the posters that young they can't remember previous PM's from the Tories?
PMQ's is a Game. The aim is too avoid answering the question asked and spout a Party Sound Bite instead. GB is doing nothing new. Cameron won't be any different.
Everyone want's someone to blame. The fact that economics is more of black art than a science means predicting, and hence controlling the economy is not always possible. No one can prevent ressions, bubbles etc, unless you want to go back to the stone age. The fact is the growth of the last 15 years is far greater than the reduction created by the current recession. People talk of the economy shrinking back to the early 2000's, not the Midddle Ages! Was life really that bad in 2000?
American Right Wingers are against sprading the idea that recessions can be predicted, and hence controlled. More Regulation will not prevent "future" recessesions, only stifle growth. That means when the next recession does occue the economy will be smaller than it would have been without the regulation. Indeed if you can go 10-15 years between ressions a mere 0.5% reduction in annual growth due to over regulation will reduce the economy more than the recession at the end.
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342. At 12:49pm on 11 Jun 2009, derekbarker wrote:
#33
Susan, The economy has been turned around.Susan the tories want you to accept over 3 million unemployed and under value those who do work, with poor pay and conditions.
Susan the whole political argument now! centres around the ideals of investments by labour or cuts by the tories.
=======================================================
Derek, I don't know anyone who is dumb enough to fall for this labour investment/tory cut garbage. Are you really sure you don't feel a little embarrassed even writing it?
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Dear 250,
re-'Britain is a far happier and progressive country now with much better social cohesion, and that is down to a LABOUR Government. Do you not remember the class warfare and social division in the 80s?'
God, yes I remember those dark and dreary days.
Bins emptied only once a week.
More Police than crooks because the gaols has space.
O levels and A levels that ment something.
Micheal Foot, oh poot!
Terrible days.
Xxxx
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316 ghostworld
#There was nothing in the slightest bit insulting in Susan's post dear boy, and i'm fully aware Susan does not need my backing up of her, as she is perfectly putting her point across by her own efforts.
This is the passage your referring to
#Perhaps if you want to be taken seriously you should present proper reasons why people should still vote Labour,
There is nothing insulting about that, so were agreed.
I wrote
Perhaps if you want to be taken seriously you should present proper reasons why people should still vote conservative.
Now you think that is insulting!, one word different, Conservative for Labour, I repeat are you for real tell me why one is insulting and the other isn't, put up or shut up.
Incidently I don't speak for Joh or anyone else if I have any thing to say I'll say it.
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346. At 12:59pm on 11 Jun 2009, johncarrelson wrote:
333 - What planet are you on?
Far more people will be in jobs under a Labour Government. Tories will come in, get rid of all of Brown's policies and prolong the recession. Thus, more unemployment and more people on benefits
====================================================================
On what basis will more people be in jobs? Is that on the basis that taxpayers will be paying them to do nothing? On the basis that the employement figures will 'appear' better under labour?
Derek, don't you realise that we can't hide from the big bill that's coming, Gordon seems to think if the country goes on holiday for a while it won't be there on the door mat when we get back.
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#342 and what does you moral compass say about forced adoption and the family courts then.
That is something that has whole been the responsibility of Nu-labour
please discuss and I'll engage with you
lets see whom else of the Nu-labour (we could include the BBC) supporters has the ed balls for this one ?
BTW this has consummed vaste quantities of taxpayers monies (££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££)and others
and the cumulative figure must be over £30 billion since 1997
PS the one peice the BBC did do Secret Shame was good but was put out when hardly anybody would watch it.
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#344 grand
"Perhaps Patricia is right about all these Asians do you think the've taken over the bloggs and dont understand me (...)."
First it was "Scotts" supposedly taking over "the bloggs"; now it is Asians. Why am I not surprised? The above representative extract from Blighty political discourse cannot but lead one to wonder whether the spasm of fever that you chaps have been experiencing lately is showing any signs of passing. Still hot and bothered? Apparently so.
Anyway, what an infantile rumpus about spending cuts, given that any incoming UK government is obviously going to be having to cut spending across the board and raising taxes for years to come. Typical Blighty yah-boo politics, as may be said to be the sad descent of Middle England into deeper and wider euroscepticism and worse at the recent Euro-elections, as Scotland declines to support the anti-EU UK Irrelevance Party and the far-right BNP yet again to plough its own furrow by endorsing its pro-EU governing party, the Scottish National Party, which has hitched its wagon to the enlightened and electorally successful Green/EFA Euro-parliamentary grouping of environmentalists and autonomists, whose phenomenal results in the Euro-elections in several EU states, especially France, are even now beginning to transform the political agenda of Europe.
Meanwhile, the insular tragi-comic soap-opera that politics has become in Blighty rumbles on, to the amusement and mystification of mainland Europe, which, while you get on with that, is busy constructing the future.
As for "not spelling out the truth", as NR puts it, what is new about that in Blighty politics?
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Some of the comments on here clearly illustrate why this country is in one hell of a mess. You backbite at each other you twist words, you play tit-for-tat.
All the while this country is going down the pan.
I'm imagining you all as you write, some sneering at the cleverness of their latest snide remark, some fuming as they thump at the keyboard unable to repress the anger.
Get a grip and get back to the discussion
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294 flame patricia
#Pilot and Sagamix. The BNP are never allowed a platform to tell the country what they are about because the Labour thugs and henchmen are following them around and inflicting violence on their cars etc.
Be interesting to know how you know that their Labour supporters,you've implied that your a BNP fringe supporter, one has to wonder if you were there.I Wonder what dear old Dave would think about your feelings towards the BHP, not too happy I guess.
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#349
Many componies have reguler Cost Reduction Programs. It's all about identifying waste without effecting the quality of the product or service supplied. The classic is the guy who, for 50% of the reduction, said he could reduce the cost of a box of Vesta Match's. All he did was remove the sand paper from one side of the box!
I can't beleive it wouldn't be possible to squeeze 5-10% out of the NHS budget this way - if the NHS was run by decent managers. That's impossible whilst the likes of Cameron keeps saying the Professionals in the NHS should be left to get on to run it. I never knew a Docters Degree was the same as an MBA!
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#350 and protecting the vulnerable and how was that achieved with Forced adoption then please, a labour policy so lets have a debate on that then ?
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Nick, you think you can put the cat amongst the pigeons? Well, at my local NHS Hospital (Good Hope in Sutton Coldfield) the nurses and porters regularly congragate around strategically placed rubbish bins to have a fag. Out of sight of hospital entries but in sight of all the patients windows! If any bloggers are reading this from Good Hope Hospital next time you go for your fag break look up - the patients can see what you are doing. Not one of these NHS 'smokers' takes off their uniform whilst they hang around the bins and they all appear to casually walk back into the hospital without even washing their hands! If the Labour Party have to make efficieny savings (political code for cuts) in the NHS then the cut I would vote for is cutting back on nursing staff behaving so irresponsibly in the area of personal hygene. And if the Conservatives do get into power I would ask that they make it 'mandatory' for the health and well being of our nation and to prevent hospital acquired infections for every NHS worker whos is hospital based to remove their uniform each and every time they leave the wards. If Good Hope is a reflection of what goes on in other NHS esatblishments only disenfecting your hands is a total waste of time and tax payers money!
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353. At 1:19pm on 11 Jun 2009, york1900 wrote:
337. At 12:24pm on 11 Jun 2009, dhwilkinson wrote:
"which figures are you using for unemployment ?? have you included all those on incapacity benefit or are you being Labour selective with your stats.
That incapacity benefit fiddle started in the 80s when the mines were closing. The unemployment figures were still high though. Its the conservatives who seem to have been selective with the stats only using them when it suits them to do so. They were all legitimate claims before mid 1997 I suppose.
_________________________________________________________________________
Yes it was only in 1997 the real figures came out about incapacity benefit and Labour have made it even harder to claim and more checks on those who claim it
Under the Tories you only had to face a medical every 8 years but under Labour you have a medical every year to see if your claim is valid
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Well i worked for the DWP for about 5 years from 1999 to 2004 and frankly they have not at all made it harder to claim
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310. derekbarker wrote:
#309
Susan, your young age doesn't allow you to remember the dreadful acts carried out by the last tory government. They also came into power by not releasing any policies. It's what the tories do! they don't want to be challenged on their cuts and their aims to enrich the rich more.
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derek
I remember 1979 when the Conservatives came to power. They did what they did to clear up the heap of **** left by Callaghan and his bunch of incompetents. They didn't need any policies - Labour were unelectable.
And while we are on not supplying any policies, Blair did the same in 1979 in the run-up to the general election. They kept quiet, letting Major et al stew in their own juice.
So Big Dave is doing the same as Blair - letting Labour self destruct before giving policies just before the election. Everything Brown says proves to be untrue. As the saying goes " a leopard can't change its spots.@
And why should he give his policies. Everytime he does Brown simply nicks them.
Again the Conservative will be left with a heap of the smelly stuff (not even including what delights PFI has in store) to clean up.
QED
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Great post 38 - ello ello
After all the hoohaa about integrity and trust of politicains and the 'new start' ...what do we get from the government BABY talk on Newsnight and This Morning where the ministers on compete to say the words: uhhum...."TORY CUTS...TORY CUTS TORY CUTS nananana torytorytory cutcutcut" as if the people of this county cant quite get beyond 2 words and fall for it. This more than anything is a disgrace. And why doesnt Gavin or John H just say to them - has this been scripted? Has Mr Mandleson instructed you not to say anything else?
The 'new' cabinet is peopled by morons. Trust not.
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#350 wrote:
'profligate spending on public services is a relatively marginal factor which is being rather sexed up in certain quarters.'
I'm sorry but this is just nonsense. Some of the expenditure on Public Services was well directed but much of it was chucked down a deep dark hole without any regard to value for money. A lot of it went on projects which failed and was totally wasted. Some of that money could have been used now to help our manufacturing industry and cushion the effects of The Credit Crisis for the vulnerable. Say it aint so!
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A sensible Chancelor would insist on ALL departments renegotiating ALL their outsourced service contracts and demanding a 15% reduction in ALL costs. If the service providers refuse, let them know in no uncertain terms that their contracts will NOT be renewed.
ALL public sector pay rises need to be FROZEN effective immediately. with RPI inflation FLAT there is no excuse. Hell you could even get away with a 5% CUT if you promise to guarantee ALL jobs in frontline services. People actually DO respond to holistic approaches, just look at the factory workers at Honda, all accepted cuts or shorter hours in exchange for saving ALL their jobs.
The private sector is being hammered by pay CUTS, job LOSSES, Pensions TAX RAIDS, yet the Public Sector continues to squeeze every taxpayer to the pips.
Time for a reality check, times run out, UKPLC's debt has caught up with us and we need to start reducing it...period.
You can either A. raise taxes and stifle economic recovery or
You can cut B. public spending and live within your means for a few years while the economy recovers.
End of the day spending is not possible if tax revenues don't provide, so option A. causes option B anyway and you get the worst of both worlds.
Labour simply fail to acknowledge this.
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357. At 1:28pm on 11 Jun 2009, grandantidote wrote:
325 sweet anybody
Your inconsistent view on this matter during your rant sounds like the pathetic politics of envy to me.
You couldn't be more wrong on both counts I don't consider it was a rant, if someone answers you with some facts in a rational way then only people like you [Who said I'm a Tory] could think it was, if I had carried on for about another five hundred words on the good things that Labour have done for this country then that might have been a bit of a rant.
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Then perhaps in that case Grand you could answer Susan's constant requests for some substantial answers to her repeated question of how do you propose we reduce the debt
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I am happyand honest with what I've got, and don't have a pathetic envy of politics in my mind, I'am happy to confess that I have wished for better, are you honest enought to do the same?. Your heartbreak over losing you pension should tell you something.
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i would imagine just like losing your house ALSO losing your pension that you have paid into would indeed be heartbreak
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250. At 00:44am on 11 Jun 2009, johncarrelson wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1192212/Race-shame-outrage-Oxford-student-Tories-clap-jeer-N-word-jokes-meeting.html
And you all want them back?
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John, it was in the Daily Mail so it can't be true, wasowenright will back me up on this. Move along now, nothing to see here.
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Just a thought...
I think David Cameron missed a trick in PMQ. Given that anyone with half a brain or more knows that all parties are planning cuts, when challenged about the tory cuts, Cameron should have just unreservedly admitted it there and then. This would have completely knocked the wind out of Labour's sails and forced them into a corner.
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250. At 00:44am on 11 Jun 2009, johncarrelson wrote:
** With regard to Warsi, I don't think there is anyone more loathsome in British politics than her. Every time I have seen her on TV and the topic raised is either immigration or issues pertaining to the British Muslim community she immediately whips out the race card and shuts down any debate. Horrible woman.
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Indeed, with an attitude like that she should be in the Labour Party!
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273 Susan-Croft
As much as I'd like to, I can't argue against the majority of those blips in Labour policy that you list. However, I can see no evidence whatever that anything would be better if we had a Tory government, and a strong feeling that things would be even worse. There's simply no strength in depth there at all. Cameron is clearly to be just another self-seeker, I can't stand Osborne's constant sneering (and lack of life-experience), I can't get past Haig's baseball cap and a shared liking with Ken Clarke for hush-puppies, beer and Stan Tracy is not really enough to nail my vote. And in spite of the fact that all those dreadful women have left the Government, Harriet Harman is still there. It's all so depressing.
Perhaps when the opportunity arrives I should simply base my decision on which party will do least damage to the NHS.
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Just heard from a civil servant Peter Mandelson's new office will be as big as a tennis court. Reshuffle of his new department to cost seven million.
Empire building while the rest of the country is burning.
How many old people will be deprived of care to pay for that?
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255. At 07:27am on 11 Jun 2009, StrictlyPickled wrote:
230 GA
"and you must be, anyone that watches PMQs would know that Cameron gets 7 questions and they've all been asked and answered by 12.17"
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Cameron may have asked his 7 questions by 12.17, but anyone who watches PMQs would know that Gordon Brown doesn't actually answer any of them.
So your comment above is half true, which is a considerable improvement on the usual standard of your posts. Well done "Grandy" as JC would say !
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Not even half true, the Leader of the Opposition gets 6 questions.
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johncarrelson 346
Never mind what planet I am on john, I am still waiting for an answer to my 273.
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357. At 1:28pm on 11 Jun 2009, grandantidote
Grand, the issue of my person pension seems to have taken over our discussion, and my point about envy was certainly not meant to imply that you were (or should be) envious of me, so please don't take to mean that.
Without going over the entire thread, I can't remember when I first mentioned pensions, but I think the reason I mentioned pensions in the first place was that the current administration have ensured that anyone who does the right thing and saves for their old age is wasting their time - many people (myself included) feel that we are being penalised for trying to do something for ourselves.
My second point was that you mentioned that Labour helped our pensioners then attacked me for being concerned about how I was going to pay my way in my own old age as my pension is worthless. Don;t you feel this is a little unfair?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
359 invader zim
Those kind words were from me. I disagree with you but you are funny.
One question though Do Gordon Browns policies really come from Uranus?
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349 susan croft
Isn't that strange my 334 has been removed, referred to the moderators by I wonder by whom ,it was the one that you replied to, the one in which I tried to twist everything in or so you said, now no one will be able to see it and I shall be heartbroken. If it wasn't you then it has to be the Flame.
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315. At 11:41am on 11 Jun 2009, davidou1234 wrote:
No Nick..Labour has told you that ar not going to purposely cut funding for the NHS. When there is a recession on I need my services even more..I rememebr the bad old tory days and how my mother had to wait so long for a hip operation...2 years... I didnt vote labour in the local election but now ther tories have shown they are cutting the NHS and that will directly effect my life. Mt grand parents after World War Two created this for our people. It s time Nick you started asking David Cameron questions on his policies instead of yor hate campaign against Labour. SAY NO TO TORY CUTS... I remeber how bad you treated the people on wards ...no way David Cameron..I dont like Gordon Brown but when it comes to the NHS I will vote Labour to prtect it from Tory cuts. Its distgusting and todat they have the nerve to say Labouur is juvenile over cuts..well the Tories can afford to go private. This has so annoyed me!!!
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David, the Tories have promised to not cut NHS spending.
Care to re-post, using some facts this time?
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derekbarker 342
Derek I would love to keep on spending to make the World a better place, but unfortunately the money has run out. We are spent up Im afraid and it is the very people you speak of on poor pay etc that will suffer the most. We are printing money because of our debt and the economy is in ruins. Unemployment will most definitely rise our services will be cut and this can only be laid at the door of the Labour Government.
My moral compass tells me to do and say what I believe is right for my Country.
XXX
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almost the whole of this blog consists of labour supporters saying their party is best and conservatives saying their party is better and vice versa.... Well quite honestly a plague on both their houses.... the UK will not become great again until we stop playing politics and start managing the country.....everything that the government has done has been for political advantage not for financial reasons and looking at the opposition bench, apart from a few exceptions, all i see are career politicians, none of whom has the experience to run UK plc. Whilst our political class consists of people who go from university to political party to adviser to mp there is no hope for the future. What qualifications does Alistair Darling or George Osborne have to manage an economy? what does Alan johnson know about the law, although he is managing the department... i pick out just a couple of examples but it applies to all minister both real and putative....lets look at the most powerful figure in the land , no not GB but peter mandelson....in 1971 left the Labour Party Young Socialists (LPYS) to join the Young Communist League, then the youth wing of the Communist Party of Great Britain. This move was partly a result of disagreements with the Trotskyist Militant tendency. He read Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St Catherine's College, Oxford (1973-1976) and became director of the British Youth Council in the late 1970s. As BYC director, he was a delegate in 1978 to the Soviet-organised World Festival of Youth and Students in Havana, Cuba, with Arthur Scargill and several future Labour cabinet colleagues.He has been twice forced to resign office due to dubious dealings and when elevated to euro commissioner he continued to court controversy with the Deripaska affair..... I could go on however he is little different from the rest of the two front benches...Lets have a general election, a grand clearout and get some men and women of experience and principle running this once great country....
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361 I hate Labour
so you managed to read 344 did you
#Your posts are probably being referred on the grounds of insanity since they are pro-labour!
Arn't you the clever boy but quite delusional, your so full of your Tory bile that you didn't notice that there was absolutly nothing political in the post, it was about disabled of any political pursuasion.
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394 grandantidote
334 back again well that was quick, read it again Susan and see if you can see any twisting this time.
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368. At 1:59pm on 11 Jun 2009, grandantidote wrote:
316 ghostworld
#There was nothing in the slightest bit insulting in Susan's post dear boy, and i'm fully aware Susan does not need my backing up of her, as she is perfectly putting her point across by her own efforts.
This is the passage your referring to
#Perhaps if you want to be taken seriously you should present proper reasons why people should still vote Labour,
There is nothing insulting about that, so were agreed.
I wrote
Perhaps if you want to be taken seriously you should present proper reasons why people should still vote conservative.
Now you think that is insulting!, one word different, Conservative for Labour, I repeat are you for real tell me why one is insulting and the other isn't, put up or shut up.
Incidently I don't speak for Joh or anyone else if I have any thing to say I'll say it.
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I feel you are getting confused by what is insulting and what isn't Susan has taken a fair few daft comments against when all she really wants is a coherent/reasoned discussion.. All she has got from a few posters is incoherent and non reasoned answers and a failure to present their attacks on her posts with any substantial argument. All she wants is for you to present how Labour is going to get us out of this debt without cutting costs. As she clearly states BOTH parties are going to CUT the public sector AS both PARTIES HAVE NO CHOICE, It is just ironic that Labour are the ones in power and now they have to cut costs but wont admit to what extent.
With regards your eloquent closing paragraph, i do believe i am for real, why do i have to " put up or shut up " i am merely replying to you and like wise for you , but at least i don't use aggressive language
Also a big DITTO if i have something to say i will say it also
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372. At 2:06pm on 11 Jun 2009, Angry_Of_Ilkeston wrote:
Some of the comments on here clearly illustrate why this country is in one hell of a mess. You backbite at each other you twist words, you play tit-for-tat.
All the while this country is going down the pan.
I'm imagining you all as you write, some sneering at the cleverness of their latest snide remark, some fuming as they thump at the keyboard unable to repress the anger.
Get a grip and get back to the discussion
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You are completely correct, it does appear to have descended into a tit for tat debate and is getting futile, i do apologise if i have been joining in.
As a previous few posters have said at the end of the day it boils down to simple facts
BOTH parties or whoever gets in to power in 2010 are going to have to make some drastic cuts to the public sector.. They don't have a choice
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Recession over. Just heard it on the wireless.
Well then Gordon's not needed at all at all at all now is he?
Dissolution and new parliament please.
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#378
This is more objective:-
Thatcher came to power to fix a mess left by Labour.
Blair came to Power to fix a mess left bt the Tories.
but
Cameron will get into Power to fix a mess which would have happended which ever party had been in power.
It's spin to imply that if we had never voted New Labour this wouldn't have happended. New Labour haven't been running all the other countires up shit creek. The Germans are not addicted to either house prices or borrowing and their economy will shrink by 6.5% this year.
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#378 mikepko
For 10 consecutive years you and your ilk creamed of the growth. Happy not to raise a single question against the labour government, then as soon as there is a recession all hell breaks loose, well! in case you need your memory jogged mike! the Thatcher government had recession after recession, a dodgy war! elected MP's sent to prison and 15% interest rates not to mention the 3million unemployed the failing schools and the NHS run into the ground and you call that the fix!
Pray not!
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387. At 2:52pm on 11 Jun 2009, virtualsilverlady wrote:
Just heard from a civil servant Peter Mandelson's new office will be as big as a tennis court. Reshuffle of his new department to cost seven million
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Rest assured he won't be able to play tennis, though: no balls left in the party.
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381. At 2:41pm on 11 Jun 2009, Nataku wrote:
A sensible Chancelor would insist on ALL departments renegotiating ALL their outsourced service contracts and demanding a 15% reduction in ALL costs. If the service providers refuse, let them know in no uncertain terms that their contracts will NOT be renewed.
ALL public sector pay rises need to be FROZEN effective immediately. with RPI inflation FLAT there is no excuse. Hell you could even get away with a 5% CUT if you promise to guarantee ALL jobs in frontline services. People actually DO respond to holistic approaches, just look at the factory workers at Honda, all accepted cuts or shorter hours in exchange for saving ALL their jobs.
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be careful there matey the majority who work in the public sector are on well below national average wages.. it is a myth that we are all on gold plated pensions maybe the big overpaid bods at the top but not the little guys ..and gals
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391. At 3:00pm on 11 Jun 2009, grandantidote wrote:
349 susan croft
#I dare and I do stand by what I said about your post about flamepatricia. I invite anyone to read post 93 on 'call for a debate' and not come to the same conclusion. No amount of twisting things around will change what was originally written.
this is the post that so offends you, completely original.
How do you know he votes conservative? or is it with your attitude he dare not do otherwise, and what gives you the right to tell all and sundry the way he votes, isn't it supposed to be a secret ballot.
I know the lads severly disabled, but dont foist your opinions on him to further your cause, if you dont see his ballot paper you don't know if he may of voted Libdem or even Labour, he could tell you anything he wants to keep you quiet
I am quite happy to show anyone interested what I said and I place it above.
But before passing judgement read 334.
Yes Susan you really are a abnoxious young person aren't you? as for leave you alone, as I've told you before if you write on here chum then your open to critisism from every which way, even you Tory girl does'nt get to choose who replies to you so as you know, they say on the council estates, tough luck!.
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A big Ditto to you also grande ( with regards your closing paragraph ) works BOTH ways mate
But you do seem to be getting very very personal now with your posts grandy old boy
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394. At 3:12pm on 11 Jun 2009, grandantidote wrote:
349 susan croft
Isn't that strange my 334 has been removed, referred to the moderators by I wonder by whom ,it was the one that you replied to, the one in which I tried to twist everything in or so you said, now no one will be able to see it and I shall be heartbroken. If it wasn't you then it has to be the Flame.
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i feel you need to give it a rest go and have a drink and calm down .. you are getting a tad bitter
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397. At 3:19pm on 11 Jun 2009, jolo13 wrote:
almost the whole of this blog consists of labour supporters saying their party is best and conservatives saying their party is better and vice versa....
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the thing is many are just commenting on the state of the current party ... just because one has a go at Labour does not actually mean they must definately be Torie
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Wait until we get the bill for PFI to add to our debt. We have got to balance the books. Who will bail out Britain not the banks..
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#390
The government is inconsistent. In general the costs of looking after the retired has always fallen on future workers and their Tax's. This relationship has been broken by asking the young to pay for their own education. This generation will have student dept, no final pension schemes and investment not worth investing in. Mean while there are Pensioners who saw their Mortgages deminish during the inflation in the 70's and 80's, saw their Mortgage Endowments pay off with a profit, and retired on a Final Salery Pensions. This sounds more like luck than prudence. Yet these pensioners aren't to be considered fair game for more tax rather than the young?
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grandantidote 394
What on earth are you talking about your 334 is still there. Now for goodness sake stop accusing people of things they have not done. I have referred none of your posts. Please accept this is the case I would doubt whether Patricia has either, if your posts are removed as I have said already it is because they contain unacceptable language. However if their were a moderator for annoyance value and not answering difficult questions I would refer you to them right away.
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When you say, somewhat implausibly you might think, you might have a point.
But perhaps the sad truth is that its hard to know what to think any more.
I mean, Ive just come from a BBC webpage which reports that Mr Malik did not think it unusual to make cash payments of £300 a month without getting a receipt.
The Government expects us to find this plausible (whereas, in another world, some people might be forgiven for thinking, Heres yet another minister sporting nicely tightened thumbscrews).
So what isnt plausible?
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404 dear derek
If Labour hadn't left the country in such a poor state recovery would have been sooo much easier. Much of it due to the unions.
Anyway what about Bliar's dodgy war.
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Derek
Mikepko's Law.
"Labour governments destroy the British economy then Conservative governments pick up the pieces, put the economy on a good footing ready for Labour to get back into power and destroy the economy all over again."
You know it makes sense.
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"the majority who work in the public sector are on well below national average wages.." ghostworld
"the median level of full-time earnings in the public sector (£523 per week in April 2008) and the private sector (£460 per week)" The Office of National Statistics (latest figures).
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susan croft
grandantidote can't help it. And he isn't as bad as kiwilegs was - she really was nasty.
Politics is the same everywhere.
Back-biting, back-stabbing and back-scratching - not the sort of thing yopu would want in your family. Sometimes I find it difficult to see how they live with themselves.
Take our auguste leader, Gordo - he goes on about his Presbytariam up-bringing and then behaves as he does - I hope he doesn't try to bully The Almighty when he finally departs this life.
This really boils down to the fact that when people haven't anything positive or constructive to say they get abusive.
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386. At 2:51pm on 11 Jun 2009, Its_an_Outrage wrote:
....I can't get past Haig's baseball cap ....
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He's grown out of that now. See his performance in yesterday's debate on dissolution - even the few labour mp's who deigned to remain in the chamber enjoyed the show.
http://tinyurl.com/na9xl3
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MY GOD!!!
Even Ronaldo's left Browm!
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Nick
The next time some Labour politician mentions that the Conservatives are planning to cu