The prime minister is safe - for now
No prime minister who appears to be taking his party to electoral annihilation can ever truly be considered safe.
Nevertheless, Gordon Brown is safe - for now. He has seen off all the plausible plots to unseat him.
Today not enough Labour MPs were willing to sign up to a demand that would have forced a leadership election.
So, instead his critics sought to shame him into resigning by saying to his face in front of their colleagues that he was leading his party to certain destruction.
Privately, many fear that that is true but they fear more the consequences of a divisive contest now and a general election which would, they think, have to follow soon after.
In reality, the threat to Gordon Brown's leadership began and ended on Thursday night.
The shock resignation of James Purnell was meant to inspire others to follow.
It was meant to lead to either his friend David Milliband or to Alan Johnson becoming leader.
It was meant to make the debate about whether to back or sack Gordon Brown unavoidable. In that sense it succeeded.
Hence the curiosity that as Labour nurses its wounds from the worst election results in decades the party today decided to back the leader who took them to defeat.
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"Privately many fear".
These are the only three words you needed for this post.
'Stay in line or I will destroy you. And I know where you live. Both addresses'.
The Dark Lord has overcome again, and with every success gets stronger.
Resistance is futile.
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Tories are celebrating!
Tethered to Brown by ties of fear and loathing, the PLP has tipped over the cliff-edge into the abyss.
Will they cut loose the dour deadwood and live to fight another day, or are they condemned to oblivion?
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hi i notice darling and miliband are keeping there heads down but will the pm c give us the referendum on europe now!!!
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It's great soap opera, isn't it?
You could almost think that Labour don't want to win the next election.
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The PM may be safe for now but is the Labour party safe ? I see a move by some Labour MP's,disllusioned and damned by number 10,to the Lib Dems. Paddy Ashdown has suggested the 2 would merge naturally in time and all it may take is a few to decide they have more chance of self respect and survival under the Lib Dems banner and Labour could collapse by next year.
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Nick,
With the dust settled from council and European elections and no more elections forthcoming, almost every elected member of the cabinet having either resigned or expressed their unwavering support, Peter Mandleson all over the media like a rash and the prospect of a long summer recess, I can see why you might consider Brown is safe for the time being.
But his fistprints remain all over a parlous economy, the electorate are still seething over MPs expenses and who knows what else is likely to surface?
How long before the Labour rank and file see through that Brown is reduced to be merely a front man for the Dark Lord himself, a kind of faustian pact while still desperately trying to cling to the last trappings of power?
Look into the clear skies out left field. The next bombshell won't be from the Tories or the Tory press, probably not from your regular briefers. Perhaps another reshuffle needed because the reshuffled cabinet has one joker too many in its pack?
This is a man who has shown he cannot grasp the big things and has no command of the detail. If he had, he might have seen something coming - or been more circumspect with whom he upset on the way up.
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I can quite understand the Labour MPs feeling that whether they ditch Gordon now or later, they are doomed, so ditching him later increases their income as MPs, before the party hits the buffers.
But I don't understand that no-one in the Labour party realises that the longer they clutch at power, the longer they will be in the wilderness when the day of reckoning comes...
Or are they only thinking about the next couple of years?
Short termism - the most wondering side-effect of democracy...
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Gordon Brown is as safe as the person that told the band on the deck of the Titanic to keep playing.
That is to say, he is as safe as he wants until the ship sinks.
Unfortunately, by doing things this way, the ship will be going down with near to all hands.
If the country is the Titanic, then Gordon would do well to call an election now and put her onto the rocks. At least then the damage would be limited, and half the crew and passengers would survive.
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A new constitution, the shelving of the part privatisation of royal mail,
the continued investment in state education and our glorious health services, an enquiry into the Iraq war, an almighty push to put Britain in the front line of renewable energy and technology of carbon capture creating thousands of new jobs.
GB time has come, and see how he will shine.
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What never ceases to amaze me is the seeming inability of mainstream politicians to understand when the game is up. Instead they blind themselves to the reality and convince themselves that things will somehow sort themselves out.
All three main parties have deliberately misread the results of the local/euro elections to see it how they want to see it rather than how it is.
Labour lost because, they are a rudderless party without ideas at the end of its time - ala John Major and the Tories 1997.
The Tories picked up votes not because of David Cameron, but because of the awfulness of the Labour Party. Cameron is no Tony Blair and has failed to outline any cogent policies.
The Lib Dems were, and always are, merely, a protest vote.
The smaller parties, in particular UKIP and the BNP, actually had people vote for their main arguments, i.e. because people genuinely have concerns about continual European integration and the opening of doors to economic migrants, which the main parties refuse to engage with. The BNP also capitalised on the fact that Labour has betrayed the working classes and are the only ones willing to speak up for them.
Brown will lead Labour into the political wilderness, possibly into total oblivion next year. Cameron will lead the Tories to victory, but provide the same underpinning market-based philosophy as New Labour, and so fail.
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The media should stop being so sickly smug about this and stop thinking they run the country. Andrew Marr's behavior in his interview with Peter Mandelson on sunday was just so anti Labour it was repulsive.
I think that the media ought to stop swallowing the Tory hype, hook line and sinker. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together could see that the right wing resignations were truly just "rebels without a coup".
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derekbarker @9 wrote:
"GB time has come, and see how he will shine."
... like the glint of moonlight on a coffin lid.
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We British really are a feckless and fickle bunch aren't we?
Callaghan is too drab and not a good communicator
Thatcher is too much spin and smarm
Major is too drab and not a good communicator
Blair is too much spin and smarm
Brown is too drab and not a good communicator
Cameron is too much spin and smarm
(predictions coming now)
Osborne is too drab and not a good communicator
MIliband is too much spin and smarm
Why does it really matter if Gordon hasn't got a million dollar hollywood smile or he isn't 100% comfortable in front of the cameras?
I would rather have politicians like Major and Brown who care more for substance, hard-work and policy results than smarmers and spinners like Blair and Cameron. Do you really want some chameleon who is going to lie and deceive you at every turn? Give me Gordon any day of the week
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Forgive me but many people seem to have missed the point. We are supposed to live in a democracy. Labour lost in two elections on Thursday but today their leader refuses to bow out and his MPs are too cowardly to ask him to go. So I can only conclude that not only do we have MPs who abuse an expenses system but also a democratic system as well. How can these pathetic individuals moan about UKIP or the BNP? I do not want riots on the streets but perhaps Gordon Brown thinks that he is more important than the country he lives in. He has to go now.
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More of the same from Brown. We will carry on ! Total contempt for the voters who told him loud and clear they had enough of him and his useless and spineless cabinet members.
Harperson on the news earlier had the same utter contempt for the voters when she repeated again and again "The public want us to sort out this mess" The public told Mzzz Harperson and Brown in no uncertain terms that they do want changes but it is a change of our present politicians.
They are totally arrogant and simply treat their positions like self styled dictators and the British Public have been cheated once again.
Shamefull and it is no wonder the voters are turning to alternatives.
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#12 maxsceptic
There was once a blue sun in a famous part of Britain some time ago!
look sceptic politics is where it should be now! it's about the delivery of improvements to the people and Gordon Brown id head and shoulders above the rest.
O' I wonder if you could link with the blue sun story 19..?
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Why is everything that happens in this country the government's fault? Damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they try to tackle a problem they're interfering and if they don't it's their fault. What has happened to the concept of personal responsibility?
* Terrorists hit us on 7/7 and rather than focus on the animals behind those attacks, we blame UK foreign policy
* People on low-incomes go on £5,000 holidays, buy £40,000 cars, spend £X,XXX on clothes, DIY, etc, and take out ridiculous mortgages but it's the fault of the government for letting them
* Reckless bankers go crazy with stupid and risky investments - but it's the government's fault
* Baby P is subject to intolerable cruelty and neglect, and again it's the government's fault. What about the actual people who were behind those indescribably despicable acts?
There is a continuing pattern of wanting abandonment of personal responsibility in British life. We need to get it back! I'm not one for administering blame but if you want to point the finger at anyone over Baby P then it should be at Thatcher/Major and their disregard for British inner-cities which produced the heinous killers of Baby P
Brazil, Russia, Canada, Germany have governments that are all very popular, and their economies have been hammered just as hard, if not more than ours. When will people get it into their thick skulls that this was a truly GLOBAL recession of an unprecedented nature that hit everyone? Everyone has been hit for six.
Do people really think that Osborne and Cameron would have coped with a global recession any better than GB and AD have? I just don't understand why people assume the Tories are such safe guardians of the economy? I seem the remember that David Cameron's one addition to British life was being advisor to Norman Lemont on Black Wednesday
It makes me cringe and want to cry at the state of Britain that in 30-40 years, our children will go on wikipedia and when they look at lists of PMs and Chancellors they will see Cameron next to the names of Churchill, Atlee, Thatcher, and Osborne next to the names of Brown and Lawson. What a horrible future we have to look forward to!
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nick
Hence the curiosity that as Labour nurses its wounds from the worst election results in decades the party today decided to back the leader who took them to defeat.
I think your being a little previous Labour are certainly not defeated, so your suggestion is erronious, we have suffered a set back perhaps deservedly so but certainly not defeat, to be defeated there has to be a victor and with the vote the tories got hardly suggests that they were victorious, many a boxer has got up in the last round after being well beaten but won the fight on a knock out in the last minute of the last round, and labour have a few rounds to go yet even if the referee [media] is bent,he can't change a knock out.
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As I think you pointed out, the PLP (those same people who angered their electors with dubious expenses claims) are now disingenuously pretending to support Gordon Brown simply to cling onto their jobs, allowances and pensions for a little longer and avoid an inevitable call for a general election now. However, no-one, yourself included, has pointed out that this means if (infer emphasis) Gordon Brown hangs on and Labour somehow limps home next May due to quirks of the system and a split in the Tory vote among other parties, they will of course immediately depose him. The Labour Party will then have, deliberately, denied the electorate for the second time in a row the chance to vote for PM (yes, I know we don't directly) which is unprecedented and will be a very serious blow to the political system and public engagement in it for ever after. The PLP has today effectively decided that their individual interests in clawing onto another year's pension trumps the basic notion that they even need to be honest with the public in something as basic as who will be leading their party, should they be elected, when they are finally compelled to present themselves for election.
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345 mediahustler
ooh get you.
Full of our own perfection and importance arnt we?
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Andrew Marr's behavior in his interview with Peter Mandelson on sunday was just so anti Labour it was repulsive.
This has to be post of the week, or an employee of Millbank whose job it is to counter any negative comments about Gordon Brown ! Among my friends Andrew Marr is renowned for his soft interviewing of the labour big cheeses. It is illuminating that whenever Brown is under political pressure he avoids Paxman and opts for the under arm deliveries Andrew provides ! They resemble PP broadcasts instead of interviews !
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Let's face it this has been payback from the Blairites. All of those who have attempted to stick the hatchet into Gordon have been arch cronies of TB. Maybe the Brownites have had it coming. If they have then the price will be a Tory election victory - which Blairites will stomach easily and the rest of us will detest.
One other thought for the day.......there is talk that Brown will authorise a full scale inquiry into the Iraq war. The Blairites weren't looking to protect their old guvnor from the full glare of a public inquiry?
It's been a good night, so good night all!
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I firmly believe that Brown is better than Cameron; once people start weighing up substance vs spin, Cameron spins Brown out of the equation...but then I don't want a teflon coated PM once more. A dour, serious and workaholic PM is what I want and what makes me feel secure.
Plus, I don't think he is that dour at all...I think when he smiles it is a natural sincere smile, not a made to measure just for the camera smile...(ignoring the youtube blunder of course!)
I also prefer his wife to Cherie or Samantha.
Unfortunately it seems that us Brits are now looking for a glamorous leader to look up to, especially when our lives seem so dull and grey.
But, here's hoping that we see through tory lies and spin and settle with someone whose policies are actually working - see Lloydstsb payback for a start.
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Sorry about 20 folks. It was meant for a previous blog. Nick doing more than one blog a week, 6 a day sometimes. is taking some getting used to and unlike mediahustler I am not perfect.
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Never mind that he was never elected by the people - his own party never had a choice of candidates from which to "select" him either.
And now he refuses to leave his job when so many want him out. And no one can do anything about it.
What has gone wrong with our "democracy"?
It might be great soap opera (and it is), but quite frankly, I'm getting more and more appalled by the day.
If people's protest votes by refusing to support labour at the EU elections mean nothing to him, which quite clearly they don't, then surely the labour members can see he's an inadequate leader?
Just what do we have to do?
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Theres always Wednesdays vote for dissolving parliament, those rebels can put the boot in there, but they wont they are spineless as most labour mps are - a fact born out of todays events.
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I'd just like to add that, like no doubt most of the non-supporters of labour at the EU elections, I don't want to see the Tories in government instead.
What I'd like is a decent leader of the labour party.
Clearly, though, that's too much to ask. It's been a sad year for UK politics.
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Has anyone noticed the sign-up count on the No 10 petition for Crash Gordon to quit? 66936 signatures in favour of him resigning at the time of posting. Not vast, given the scale of public feeling - unless you count the number of signatories specifically asking him NOT to quit - Erm, 47... ... Nick, I think some sort of mention might be worthwhile?
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Nick, I think you are right when you say "Gordon Brown is safe - for now"
Given the terrible results in the recent elections, Labour MPs must realise they are doomed, so from their point of view it makes sense to hang onto their seats for as long as possible.
If Labour replaced Brown now, it's difficult to see how yet another 'apointed' Prime Minsiter could avoid seeking a fresh mandate (as Brown should have done). So by keeping Brown, they avoid a general election and keep their jobs!
We really should stop talking about Labour 'rebels'. These are the same people who did nothing when Lisbon was pushed through without the promised referendum. They maust all take the blame.
Well done Labour... as ever, looking after yourselves rather than putting the country first. The electorate will not forgive you.
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TBH changing Brown for Johnson, or Harman, or.... will mean nothing.
11 months and counting to the effective elimination of Labour as a political force for a decade. 1997 and what hope! Then an unholy alliance with a neocon Republican administration, the fraternisation with the markets, having Lady T round to tea? Yet they wonder why the core vote has abandoned them? Even the BNP seem more popular in Barnsley...
Sic Gloria Mundi......
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I don't know why, but reading purpley_g's comment, parallels with Robert Mugabe suddenly sprang to mind. He took a decent economy, refused to go when everyone wanted him to, did some economically damaging show gestures to play to the groundlings and gain a quick sound bite [compare seizing white farms with the 50p tax hike, both to invoke politics of envy at the expense of driving out overseas business investment], a big reduction in civil liberties, growing electoral fraud with postal voting. Ironically, unlike Gordon Brown, Robert Mugabe was at least once popularly elected, and he did (eventually, sort of, but still more gracefully than Gordon Brown!) bow to calls for him to go! It can't be long now here before the requirement for cabinet ministers to pledge loyalty is backed up by baseball bats!
To answer purpley_g, what has gone wrong is, in part, that a swathe of ministers, predominantly younger labour MPs, entered politics as a career in itself, and they are now looking after their own career interests in a difficult economic time.
Whether or not one personally agrees with the political views of the older guard of MPs, typically more tories, who entered politics after a spell in the real world, and often having made money elsewhere, at least they generally did so motivated more by genuine political desire rather than simply by the financial perks.
Whatever one complains about a man who has his moat cleaned (if indeed he did), objectively it seems unlikely that he would seek or cling onto a job as an MP simply for the allowance.
On the other hand, the motives of someone who has made more in allowances and perks than he or she ever earned before entering politics or is likely to do in the near future who has suddenly dropped prinicpled objection and decided to back Gordon Brown as the best man to lead the party seem more suspect.
Now, if it were a requirement for an MP to stand only after, say the age of 30, having worked and paid taxes for a time, or if their previous careers were made more public, it might weed out those who move seamlessly from student politics to cashing in on the gravy train, and they might have something to go back to when it all got too much so they wouldn't be desperately clinging on to their seats at the cost of any principles.
Prior to 1997, it was generally expected of MPs to resign on the spot when they did something naughty. Tony Blair changed all of that (having promised to be whiter than white) and Gordon Brown's current cling to power is reliant on the support of a man with whom we had a fundamental falling out and who has not once but twice been forced to duck out of government for wrongdoing (mortgage, passports). To that extent he is showing leadership to the PLP, in that he is demonstrating that their backing him to get another year's cash out of the taxpayer is as principled as his stand to remain as their leader!
On that note, I shall sleep.
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for we had a falling out read he
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Gordon Brown thinks people want him to "get on with his job" in fact people want the complete opposite to "get out" of his job.
Has anyone here ever wondered that Gordon Brown might actually be delusional? That he and his party believe they could win the next election with a majority? It's certainly true that Gordon Brown must believe this is a possibility, otherwise he would have left by now. In a situation where the other parties don't have the guts to put forward a motion of no confidence (no matter how confident Cameron seems, he is dreading an early election, such things are reliant on a new, and almost certainly more popular, prime minister and the longer this drags on the better it is for him) the people have to sit back and watch Parliament destroy itself.
We need Electoral Reform. Not P.R, not a new system, we need to give people the power to topple governments by actually holding a referendum each year on whether or not the government should remain in power e.g if 66% of the population want to oust the government, they should hold an election.
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Gordon Brown may be "safe" for now but the Labour Party is now doomed to die a very painful and slow death. However, it's been clear for sometime that nobody really cares whether Labour lives or dies so who gives a hoot, save the Polly Toynbees of this world ("Alan Johnson is our salvation"), the Guardian ( "Gordon B must go and go now" ) and the good old Tory Party, (with no opposition there's no point in politics).
So goodbye keir Hardie, farewell clause 4, those old commanding heights remain uncommanded; sob sob ....
Balls....
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Nick,
Don't Think So...
It may be true that Gordon has finally been put in his place, in some kind of hush, hush manner but I feel there is more to this than meets the eye - with Mandelson in on it.
Do you really think Brown can last the year until an election...?
Do you really believe he will hold the support of all labour mps until then...?
I say not possible. Something fishy is going on and it smells like Mandleson.
I think the journo's are in on it too.
Harriet Harman, and David Milliband are waiting in the wings for something...
What, I am unable to detect.
Whatever back room deals they've got going on, it clearly has something to do with the leadership, as I say Harriet and Milliband are unusually tight lipped and compliant, they used to have a point of view.
Mandelson is there to add some silver tongued spit, spin n' polish, on things as he did with Blair, a strange and entertaining distraction.
So if old school folks like Roy Hattersley can say with confidence and certainty that Brown is staying, there is somethings we are not being told about the leadership. It would be impossible to keep those high profile tight lipped with out a reason.
If the reason is to maintain power it won't work. Brown will go because he hasn't been elected, he is ignoring public opinion - at his peril, clinging to power, offering no clear or solid reason why he should stay, and mps will become more and more disenchanted over the run up to the election.
If there are no back room deals going on at present labour need to make one, get someone else in or face loosing power.
Lets hope they have something up their sleeve because this is SUICIDE...OR in fact a conspiracy to let laughing boy Cameron swan into power chauffeur driven he doesn't have to lift a finger right now, labour will escort the tories to power.
Best wishes...
p.s Give it up Tunbridge...whinger
The Media Hustler
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Gordon Brown's loyal supporters keep stating that he is the 'right man for the job'; however, it seems to me they are really saying that he is the right man to keep their job(s)!
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It doesn't seem right Labour MP can vote for a new leader and thus a new PM for the country, following only party rules BUT the country cannot vote for new MPs and PM until a general election !
So, MPs who have made dishonourable expense claims after unsuccessfully tring to hide them, can support or change the PM to potentially suit their own self-interests under rules which they may have been invoved to define !
This is neither democratic nor fair.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Dear Sir,
Following the recent Labour debacle in the Euro/Council elections, I would like to propose that Peter Mandelson is the only member of the Cabinet who seems to have a grip on the way politics works. He is calm, studied, and clearly too much for Andrew Marr (yes, that was a very disappointing performance on Sunday). Of course, there will be those in the Labour Party who, though they may say otherwise, will be shaping up to make the most of the forecoming 'scrappage'; Mandelson and Harman in particular.
Anthony Webber
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Here at Fort Moraymint we're adjusting our tack. Having hoped (against hope, it seems) that the Labour Party would do the decent thing (bit much to ask, I suppose), we are now resigned to Gordon Brown clinging to power for months ... probably until next year.
This will, of course, be disastrous for the Labour Party; they will be consigned to oblivion at the General Election. More to the point, though, it will be catastrophic for the British people as our economy is now to set to implode. Gordon Brown is hell-bent on bankrupting the nation; he's made a great fist of starting the job; now he's going to be in a position to complete his handiwork.
The upshot of an imploding economy will be the concomitant impact on society. Indeed, we're feeling the impact already. Yesterday, in my small Highland village (less than 500 dwellings), the Post Office was robbed in broad daylight. This was/is an unthinkable event ... until now, of course.
Watch out for more of the same in the coming year as Gordon Brown now sprints to the finishing line, trashing the economy on his way and lording it over an increasingly unsettled and unpleasant society; the two always go together. This will be Brown's legacy. An incompetent, arrogant, deceitful and - most frustratingly - illegitimate Prime Minister will now steer the UK on to the rocks, with his spineless crew and Party passengers egging him on. It's grotesque really.
As our community policeman chases the village Post Office robbers, Fort Moraymint is hunkering down.
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So we now have a 'safe' powerless, emasculated Prime Minister who cannot (or will not) be able or allowed to make any decisions without dire threat to his loose tether of "leadership". Not a good position for him or the country. Roll on the General Election - what more harm can he do in 10 months after all???!!!
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# 41 moraymint
Spookily, and just to reinforce my post above, here's what Ambrose Evans-Pritchard has to say in his Blog today: "Half way through the depression, we are facing exactly the sort of political disintegration that occurs in times of profound economic rupture".
It's small consolation to think that Gordon Brown will be reviled in history. Meantime, we poor b****y citizens have to deal with the consequences on the ground. Talk about Peasants' Revolt eh?
I've asked it before, but I'll ask it again anyway: where is Her Majesty The Queen in all of this? Does she not have a role in the face of the unfathomable madness now playing out in Westminster? Or am I confusing constitutional monarchy and democracy with a pseudo-dictatorship?
Read Evans-Pritchard's full Blog here: http://tinyurl.com/ldt5j5
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I am no Cameron supporter but he must now be rubbing his hands with glee. All he has to do is carry on normally for the next 11 months to achieve his goal. The labour party do not understand that it's not many of their policies but their leader and all the Mandelson type people around him that the public loathe.
It may concentrate the minds of labour MPs if they were mailed by their constituents with a plain statement that they will not vote Labour at the next election if Gordon Brown is the leader.
It's amazing how concentrated MPs become when they see electoral defeat, i.e. the end of their gravy train, staring them in the face.
In the meantime, the rest of us plebs just have to grin and bear the embarassment that GB is.
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Chaps,
Here is my thought on this. The Prime Minister was never going to leave Downing Street until the electorate actually sends him out of the door. His moral compass says he still has too much to do to save our economy and to lay in foundations of the social mobility he so craves to be part of his legacy. Politicians always crave their legacy, its in their genes and their ego. How will I be seen in history is a constant issue for them. So I believe this all comes down to the Party Conference speeched this year. It is apparent that David Cameron has not yet 'sealed the deal' with the British Public. The Prime Minister knows this and it is his hunch, and that is what over 300 Labour MPs depend upon, that the economy is going to turn round and that by May next year things 'will be getting better'. So if his hunch is correct then to my mind the party conference speeches are huge, massive, .....
The Prime Ministers speech will already be being shaped by Lord Mandelson. His aim will be to build on the passion with which the Prime Minister reportedly spoke last night in the HoC. The hatred that the Prime Minister has for Conservative politics, the core of the smear campaigns and any attempt to stand up to him. Only he, in his mind, is capable of leading the country. David Cameron stands for thrift and destruction of the Prime Minister's dream of a socially mobile UK - his legacy. All the stops must be pulled out to stop thrift. It, and it alone, threatens his legacy and how history will write about him.
David Cameron has a really difficult task ahead of him. He needs to 'seal the deal' with the electorate and his conference speech is crucial. He must move on from calling for an election. Just like the labelling of the 'do nothing Tories' the 'we need an election now' is also starting to grind. David Cameron must explain 'compassionate conservatism' to the country. He has the momentum, there is no doubt, but he must sieze the initiative and finally connect with the public. Stay away Labour voters will, Lord Mandelson said it last night, return in droves [I am quoting him] when the General Election is held. Labour will poll better than they did last night. For the Prime Minister it is not over yet and the fat lady has not sung. He can bounce back from this one more time. The darkest hour is just before dawn [and many other metaphors come to mind]. After last night he 'promised to change' well the electorate will see. If he does those writing his obituary may well be proven to be wrong. This guy is rescilient and believes that he his the chosen one. The question is in the next ten months can he convince the electorate to believe him. With Lord Mandelson by his side orchestrating the media and the speeches ANYTHING is possible.
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Brown is the only choice that will avoid a General Election.
Labour MPs have taken this option for their own financial reasons. A last gorge in the trough.
The people want an election. The people don't, and never did, want Brown as PM.
The BBC, with their bias and left-wing agenda, have encouraged this situation and aided the wrecking of this country by greedy, self-interested 'politicians'.
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You are still not asking Nick... why has Gordon Brown decided to stay on as leader and why is he not calling an election.
We the public want to know his reasoning. Is it self-interest or is it arrogance, for example? Please address this issue.
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Nick, you said on your BBC report that GB passed you in the corridor with a smile on his face.
Hardly the facial expression of someone who apologised to his MP's and admitted mistakes.
Suggests to me that he is pleased with himself and will punch the air with satisfaction when in a private room somewhere!
Same old story-total arrogance-how can anyone possibly believe this man has the nation's interest at heart?
I don't see any contrition from him at all, ever.
I'm appalled that our representatives in Parliament are still putting themselves first, and not the country.
Keep Brown in and watch BNP take seats on protest voting when we eventually get the election. And Mandelson's behaviour is dark and scary-what is his agenda in all this.
Shuddering at the implications of all of this-very worrying times.
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An Unelected Unpopular Weak P.M.
An Unelected Untrustworthy Manipulative deputy P.M.
A cabinet of NuLabour Lords and Ladies.
A paralayzed political system reeling after Expensegate.
An electorate with no faith in their MPs.
An expanding National Debt of mind blowing amounts.
A population in debt up to their eye balls.
A war started by lies nobody voted for.
A broken promise on a Europe Vote.
British Fascists with 2 steats in the European Parliament.
Gold Reserve sold at the bottom of the market.
National Utilities and National Brands sold to global owners.
A million or so illegal immigrants somewhere around...
I wonder what would Winston Churchill would say ?
This situation is utterly intolerable and damaging our once respected democratic reputation.
The Queen as Head of State is the only person who can stop the rot... she should dissolve Parliament and appoint a crisis management team.
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Last night proved Labour's total disregard for the democratic process.
We were denied the election after Brown became leader and so his mandate is forefeit.
We were denied the referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and so Labour's mandate on Europe is forefeit.
We have been denied our place in the democratic process to comment on MP's abuse of expenses.
The time has come I am starting to believe, if we are denied a democratic voice by Parliament, then us the people should undemocratically remove Parliament from power.
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It shows how totally useless and immoral the labour party is, that it cannot even oust the worse prime minister this country has ever had.
The real question now is what is Mandelson's agenda. He is clearly the puppet-master pulling the strings of Brown and the cabinet.
Respecting the wishes of the public, who desperately want Brown out, is obviously not high on the priority list.
While I would love to see Brown slung out, the prospect of a sort of non-government which is unable to keep bringing in more barmy ill-thought legislation is quite appealing. Also, if it means that Labour end up losing every seat at the next election, and their subsequent annihilation, then that is worth waiting for.
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anyone remember the trouble OMOV caused the labour party, ie true democracy. The days of block votes barons and bullying.
Well no secret ballot of the PLP , no general election or they would get the result they would not like.
A large meeting where people can be intimidated, bullies and kept quit for fear of reprisials has kept the dictator in place.
He think one thing whilst the majority as shown by the last 2 sets of secret ballots show other wise.
You can see why old-labour like postal ballots because they can be interferred with to their advantage on week and vunerable people those that they say they are in power to protect.
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My hair's gone grey this last week. The death throes of this once Great Party remind me of the days of watching for clues coming out of the Kremlin. Empires crumble and New Labour's tank engine's made of plastic.
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No 13- John Carrelson
Few will doubt your words on spin, but come on, when it comes to lies you friend dear old Gordon is in a league of his own. Maybe it's not lies maybe he's just in total denial. Having achieved what he sees as his destiny by whatever means possible, he will not exit the doors of No 10 easily. I can just picture it now, the morning after next years general election, Labour beaten out of sight but with a few seats left to be counted, he gets himself on the TV and proclaims:
"What I think the people of Britain want is for me to get on with job of sorting the economy and MPs expenses, I am the best man for job, in fact I am the only man for job"
Every election defeat of this government is followed by the usual list of reasons, recession, protest vote, MPs expenses etc, I laughed to myself last night when I heard the old chestnut "We must listen to the voters and learn and act", didn't they say 2,3 & 4 years ago. If they were listening to the voters they would have resigned by now.
NO GORDON the people don't want you to get on with job, if you had ever bothered listening to the people, you would have realised and ACCEPTED that ever since Crewe & Nantwich and Glasgow East and pretty much every chance the voters have had since, what they really really want is for you to go.
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"28. At 00:39am on 09 Jun 2009, TimidGoose wrote:
Has anyone noticed the sign-up count on the No 10 petition for Crash Gordon to quit? 66936 signatures in favour of him resigning at the time of posting. Not vast, given the scale of public feeling - unless you count the number of signatories specifically asking him NOT to quit - Erm, 47... ... Nick, I think some sort of mention might be worthwhile?"
Timid, dispite about 30 attempts to sign that petition I fill in my details and await for the conformation email (which supplies the link to finalize the signiture) the email NEVER arrives. Oddly if i fill in the petition for him to stay with the same details (cut and pasted just to make sure) and click sign the email for that petition arrives within seconds.
I am one persion desperate to sign that petition for him to go but the site/system/..... will not let me! I wonder how many others are effected by this susyem fault?
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"51. At 07:54am on 09 Jun 2009, wykhamist wrote:
The real question now is what is Mandelson's agenda. He is clearly the puppet-master pulling the strings of Brown and the cabinet."
His agenda is to get the longest job title in the UK, currently standing ate 18 words "First Secretary of State, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills and Lord President of the Council"
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Hasn't the last few days been absolutely tremendous entertainment....if nothing else. My take on stuff....
1. Brown says he will change his style - he can't. He is incapable of changing his personality and probably doesn't even want to. Simply another example of him saying 'this is what I'm going to do to save the world/party/my own arse (delete as appropriate)' and then doing absolutely nothing.
2. He says he will be more inclusive of the party and the public in developing the policies the people want. No he won't. He's spent the last 12 years telling us what we want and (both with his former master and now as top dog) then doing completely the opposite or nothing or more often than not getting it worng in the first place.
3. The new Cabinet are loyal and supportive of the PM. No they're not for goodness sake!! No-one ever gets elected as leader of the party, any party, having got form as a traitor to the previous encumbent. Milliband, Johnson, Balls and Co are being loyal until they no longer have to be. Then the knives will be out big time.
4. Labour apparently think they lost/got hammered in the lections because their vote stayed at home. Very true. Even the grass roots, dyed in the wool, always voted Labour because my Dad did, my Grandad did, etc, etc can't bring themselves to vote for a party that has completely and utterly let them down and lost all sense of why the Labour Party came into being in the first place - to represent the working man/woman.
I could go on....
Here's what Cameron should do next PMQ's. Don't call for an election, don't brag about the ones just gone, don't feign anger or comtempt....simply ask the PM questions on what his new, all inclusive and transparent policies are. Gordon will not be able to answer, because now he has to go and get the approval of all his backbenchers before bringing anything forward....or he knows he's toast.
No election until next May...then Nick Clegg will be the leader of HM's Opposition and Brown will be sat on the back-benches still staying he is the right man for the job. How sad.
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Brown must now raise the political stakes. He must bring forward radical proposals to clean up parliamentary finances, a fundamental shakeup of the Constitution -for example a written Constitution which is then put to the electorate for acceptance or rejection that would makesParliament subject to constitutional law rather than above the law as is presently the case -they call it parliamentary sovereignty and we have seen the consequences. There must also be a serious attempt to lead on the EU debate and connect with the concertns of those most badly affected or at risk from the economic crisis that is likely to get worse, still, before it gets better. His only chance of avoid a massive political defeat at the next election is to outflank the Conservatives on these questions and quickly.
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However "safe" Brown is - for now - it is obvious that taking the Labour Party into the next election is going to prove fatal. Much discussion has been made about who should succeed him but I think the answer is obvious - HARRIET HARMAN. She is high profile and has (as far as I am aware) come out unscathed in the MPs' expenses scandal. I still don't think Labour would win but you never know!
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Please stop bleating on about Gordon Brown. It's time that you and your cronies accepted that Labour is
stronger than its Leader. The Labour ideals of social justice , and " a society where we live together freely, in
a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect" are too strong to be destroyed by the ravings of the gutter press
the self-serving antics of career politicians and crass political commentators and interviewers on TV .
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Just remember in 3 weeks the complete "edited" list of ALL mp's expenses will be published and in 2 weeks we have a new speaker!
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Turkeys don't vote for Christmas and this shower of a patchwork Cabinet are most definitely Turkeys
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# 55 icewombat
Scary. But then, we're now living in a country which bears all of the dreadful hallmarks of life in an old USSR state. Just listened to Milliband being interviewed by Jim Naughtie on the Today programme (well, Milliband just talked at Naughtie who let him go). Same old stuff. Mustn't let the people have a choice in an election because the great project is only half-baked. The people are too stupid to figure out if the Labour Party have anything to offer (after 12 years in power) so, no election until the Party is "ready" ... whatever that means.
It's all so sinister. I'm ready to march on Downing Street, I'm so sick of this arrant nonsense.
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"The prime minister is safe ...for now" well nick it depends on who you think really is the PM...GB has the title but the real pm is PM ...Peter Mandelson... He is the one who has kept GB in place and he alone has the power, Gordon will do as he says as he wants to stay on as prime minister but have no doubt about who is really in charge....
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# 56 icewombat
Further to my post at # 63 regarding life these days feeling ever more like life in an old USSR state. Mandelson's 18-word job title reinforces my point. Our Dear Leader and his supine, sycophantic, hangers-on really have lost the plot.
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9. At 11:43pm on 08 Jun 2009, derekbarker wrote:
A new constitution, the shelving of the part privatisation of royal mail,
the continued investment in state education and our glorious health services, an enquiry into the Iraq war, an almighty push to put Britain in the front line of renewable energy and technology of carbon capture creating thousands of new jobs.
GB time has come, and see how he will shine.
====================================================
Derek gordon will never shine. Isn't there a saying about not being able to polish brown things?
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If the next election is May at least we will have one buidget and one pre-budget statement where this goverment can actually do something about public sector pensions.
Darlins last budget put everything off till after the next election which i think Labour at the time were planning for later this year (Vat goes back to 17.5% in December, the 10% tax adjustment goes in April, 50% taxs starts to hit, NI goes up in April, Taxes go up in April, Stamp Duty comes back into force etc), For this Tax year nearly everyone is a winner, next tax year EVERY one is a loser.
We need a budget that basicily closes final sal pensions for the public sector, then the next goverment can step back a bit but still sort out the pension inequality betwenn public and private sector.
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13. At 11:53pm on 08 Jun 2009, johncarrelson wrote:
We British really are a feckless and fickle bunch aren't we?
I would rather have politicians like Major and Brown who care more for substance, hard-work and policy results than smarmers and spinners like Blair and Cameron. Do you really want some chameleon who is going to lie and deceive you at every turn? Give me Gordon any day of the week
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Can you name one of Gordons policy results? That's one that actually improved someones life.
And perhaps you'd like to define what this substance actually is.
And if you don't want lies does that include the one about whether Darling was leaving his job?
Brown is as bad as blair for spin just listen to his endless repetition - 'no nothing tories', 'getting on with the job'.
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Just don't make any long term policy decisions, (anything more than a year say), you the Labour party won't be around to implement them!!!!!
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So what happened to the expenses scandal and the aftermath - Darling, Balls/Cooper etc still in place. What has Mandy promised everyone in Government in return for standing up and applauding GB last night. APPLAUSE? what's all that about, for leading the party to its worst ever election result. Oh, the arrogance of these politicians!! They really do not understand what the public really wants, even though to the ordinary man in the street it was perfectly obvious form the votes last week.
I do not know whether David Cameron and the Tories are the answer but at least the population has given its verdict on NuLabor and ought to be given the opportunity to vote in a General Election. At least then everyone could see for themselves whether the Tories have any policies likely to be successful - they would be mad to announce them before any GE manifesto publication
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They won't replace him because no one wants the job. It's as simple as that. If they were only mid-term he wouldn't be able to move for all the knives in his back. As it is, with an election around the corner and no time to tidy up their mess, who wants to pick up the poisoned chalice. Whoever leads the Labour Party at the next general election can kiss their political career goodbye. That's why they're all so damned 'loyal'.
Unortunately for them the longer they leave it until they call an election, the more it's going to hurt them. Hopefully enough to finish Labour for good and all and good riddance.
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"it's about the delivery of improvements to the people and Gordon Brown id head and shoulders above the rest"
He's spent a lot, and delivered very little. He's also the only one in charge so he's head and shoulders above exactly nobody. He needs to rein in public spending immediately, as well as putting the UK at the forefront of renewable energy - but we all know he won't. It is time for him to go, but I'm a patient man so I will happily wait for another year.
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Why are politicians so dumb!
If it's their policies they are trying to sell, then they have got the wrong salesman. You don't buy from someone you don't like ...or is not likeable! IT'S THAT SIMPLE!
Get this very simple thing right and the problem is solved!
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Trouble is Nick we have heard it all before. "I will listen more. I will change bla bla ". Brown will not change its in his DNA. The electorate is feed up to the teeth with Labour and its spin maker in chief Mandleson. Just goes to show how inept Labour MPs are, cheering someone who has led them to third place and worse in some parts of the country. And these idiots are the governing party!
Its not over till the fat lady sings - Brown is living on borrowed time and he is really starting to get up the nose of the right minded people in this country.
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This is a complete tragedy for the country. We have a broken PM at the head of a broken Government, incompetent, mired in sleaze and incapable of taking the difficult decisions required to bring the public sector deficit back under control.
The country desperately needs and demands a General Election, yet we have this self appointed Prime Minister sitting like a grisly, dead whale, blocking the road to an election whilst it rots and stinks in its own putrefaction.
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What a perfect chance these yellow -lily-livered spinless group of so called politicians had at that meeting yesterday with Gordon Brown to tell him enough is enough...Get OUT!
How can this lot be leading our country when they do not have the courage of their convictions sickens me.
They did not need a so-called secret email list to add 80 or so names to create a motion of no-confidence. They could have yelled at him simply to GO! But they stood back and applauded him to please stay on as Brown stated it is not a plea for unity BUT an argument for unity...Please give me another chance! I have weaknesses. Several politicians could see through the smoke screen and said No! but they were drowned out by the other yellow backed cowardly lot thinking ...Who will take over? ME !will I lose my Salary, pension reduced, NO WAY ! Lets keep Brown ON ! yes that will do me! any way we are going to lose at the next General Election, so lets earn as much as we can while Brown takes the rap WE VOTE FOR GORDON
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It should not surprise us that these venal labour politicians put a few more months of salary, expenses and pension contributions before the future of the country. With GB still at the helm (for he will not change despite his promises to do so) we are in even deeper trouble than before.
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59. At 08:29am on 09 Jun 2009, Witneylass wrote:
However "safe" Brown is - for now - it is obvious that taking the Labour Party into the next election is going to prove fatal. Much discussion has been made about who should succeed him but I think the answer is obvious - HARRIET HARMAN. She is high profile and has (as far as I am aware) come out unscathed in the MPs' expenses scandal. I still don't think Labour would win but you never know!
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If Harriet became leader, labour surely wouldn't get a vote from a single male in the country. We don't need any more of her hypnocritical anti-male sexism.
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re: 14 rcrobjohn
Indeed, Labour (especially Brown & Harman) are arrogant and "not listening".
It reminds me of the Euro-referendum mentality - only the "correct" answer is accepted.
Pathetic.
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This whole affair has shown that Labour MP's (from top to bottom) are looking out for themselves, and not for the people of the country ...
... which takes us back to previous points, eg the failure to apply the "Seven Principles of Public Life" which has created the lack of trust in Government ...
1. Selflessness
2. Integrity
3, Honesty
4. Leadership
5. Openness
6. Objectivity
7. Accountability ...
Should these apply in the Labour Party and Politics at the moment? ... I think most people would say they not only should, but must ! ... but it appears they only want to espouse them ... and necessarily follow them! This is very common when Poweromics* is applied (along withe the use of spin, threats and creating fear!) ...
... the phrase do as I say, not as I do, come to mind ... and they should not be 'principles' but the 'fundamental values' that must be followed and policies must also support. Trust has gone in the labour party - a party which was supposedly to represent 'the people" ... arguably the most sickening point of all.
.
We desperately need a 21st century democracy - a "people democracy" - where people are really listened to, properly represented, and capable of having their say ...
take a look the new e-petition http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/peopledemocracy/ which gives everyone the chance to 'request' the Prime Minister (and Number 10) to give us what we want ... and to let us have a say ...
and register your wish** for a 21st century electoral system too - so everyone is given a say ... and "every day" ... "not just on election day" !
As trust will not be restored without it !
* Poweromics = People using position and power for their own personal gain, based on poor moral values, self interest and greed.
** People democracy - be one of the first to sign the 'People Democracy" e-petition ... and directly request the Prime Minister to give it us! Complaining without taking action is of little value to anyone ... and the time to be heard is now ... before they all disappear on their long summer holidays ...
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We have a new Prime Minister; Peter Mandelson
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Is it me or does there seem to be a parallel between how they run they party and how they run the country.
It's all based on fear, lies and dodgy deals behind closed doors, and less democracy that the average banana republic.
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Well I never........
So Farmer Brown cowes his sheep, without even using his attack dogs.
A few 'mistakes were made' (sorry, by whom?), a few 'I can change my spots', a couple of 'Investing in the future' (don't you mean borrowing from the future?) -and everything in the Labour garden is rosy again.
Thank you Tony Blair, you built this system of central control and no dissent. Shame on the PLP for being so hollow.
You lot momentarily forgot last night that, under Brown every single aspect of government has been weak, incompetent or compromised.
Education, Crime & the Law, Europe, Defence, the Economy, Financial control, Parliament, Foreign policy, Culture & Media, Energy, Morality & Ethics.
Thats a lot of spots that are going to have to be changed.
Of course, I might be completely wrong, and we really have turned a corner!
Mebbes aye, or mebbes naw, but in which direction did we turn?
I hope it wasn't downwards.
Remember, now we are broke, and nothing is to be done for a year to stop the haemorrhaging of money we dont have, into the public sector and the banks (and of course the MPs).
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With all due respect to the magic circle and the comedy store
I hear that the reshuffle is not yet complete
Gordon Brown no sorry i mean Peter manadleson is calling a press conference to announce that Paul Daniels is to be given a peerage and elevated a cabinet job as sec of state for propaganda sorry Information.
Gordon and Peter have decided that since Tony Blair the great illusionist left the stage the electorate are getting the truth sorry the wrong message so the master illusionist has been re to re create the illusion that all is well
it is also reported (by me) that Paul Daniels wife is to stand in the by election in Norwich as magicians sorry i mean illusionists assistants are used to their majority sawn in half
Yes it is a joke now lets get the police investigating MPs expenses
Flipping is tax evasion Phantom mortgages is fraud putting charity donations on expenses should be automatic deselection
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It sounds to me that the actual detractors either chose not to attend the meeting of the PLP or were discouraged from going. Hence why people couldn't get into the poky rooms that had been booked
It hasn't stopped the detractors, and R4 even covered some of Byers speech this morning whereas they didn't cover the speech from the Welsh Windbag.
Brown has succeeded for the same reasons that the BNP won 2 seats. Failure, a failure of the opposition to Brown to actual bring about a concerted plan, and a failure of the Labour party to engage with its natural voters.
We still await the pronouncements of Darling who has been very quiet
We await the market's reaction to the repatriation of capital, and the merry go round that is government gilt sales greased by QE
We await the by elections
We await Brown's outline of his vision. Once it is proved to be vacuous and unattainable what will the PLP do then. It does explain how Brown could bottle his electoral opportunity when he lives in the environment that is the PLP
Now we see a Government in power, without the ability to rule over the local councils, with a different voice in Europe, no longer the main party in Scotland or Wales, and it becomes necessary to take small bites out of the majority that will ultimately cause his administration to fail.
Maybe we should just stand in front of him with our backs turned. Would he then get the message or would he simply resolve to remain in the bunker?
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These self serving corrupt politicians in the Labour Party r ONCE AGAIN thinking about themselves before the country. The UK is in the worst mess for a century, boprrowing is beyond most peoples reasonibng, our childrens children r saddled with enormous debt, and Derekbarker and others on HYS think these r the people, and so called leader, we should trust to repair what they have brought upon us. GOD SAVE THE UK - no one from Liebour will.
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"No prime minister who appears to be taking his party to electoral annihilation can ever truly be considered safe."
Whilst an interestingly dramatic line, in reality the fact is that Gordon Brown, within the Parliamentary Labour Party is perceived by some of them, at this point in time, to be taking his party to the lemmings' leap.
As you may remember, when Maggie Thatcher went, within days the joke that was going around was:
Knock, Knock.
Who's There?
Maggie.
Maggie who?
A week's along time in politics.
Equally, whether Gordon will cause the Labour Party 'anihilation' at the next election has yet to be seen and can really only be judged as we approach that election and we know the political lay of the land then.
The time between now and that election is an eternity in UK politics.
It may not be very probable - but it is just possible - that by that point in time everyone will think the sun shines out of Gordon's rear area.
In my opinion, David Cameron would be well advised to use that time wisely to ensure that however strong or popular Brown might just become, the Tories can clearly, confidently and cleverly out-class him and the the Labour party.
If the Tories sit on their rumps confident that Brown will lose the next election for the Labour party and therefore they just have to walk into power - they may just find they gambled wrong.
I would also advise David Cameron, particularly given the events of the last couple of weeks or so, not to underestimate how ruthless the Labour party heads can be.
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A slight aside -- but a perfect example of Brown's incompetence:
"Glenys Kinnock's appointment as Europe minister descended into farce yesterday after it emerged that she could not do the job because she was still an MEP"
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Mike Smithson of Political Betting.com is saying this morning that people of his generation will live out their lives under a Tory government. The craven cowardice of Labour MP's is awful but not shocking. Blair took away Labour's ideological underpinnings and attracted a bunch of shallow careerists who believed that they were going to be in power for ever. They seem to be in complete denial about what is likely to happen to them next May and when they do get voted out, most of them will just leave politics and go off and do something else.
The mantra from Labour is "when the economy recovers people will look afresh at Gordon," even with Darling's "trampoline recovery," the economy will only be starting to edge back into growth at the time of the election. John Major achieved 2-3 years of steadily rising economic growth with low inflation and falling unemployment and how much good did it do him?
A big, fat zero!!
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Has nobody in the media thought about this from the point of view of a would-be leader of the Labour Party?
Consider - which is better FOR ME? Should I push Gordon now, take over the party, and very possibly lose the next election, OR should I let Gordon lose the next election and THEN take over?
Which ambitious politician would not choose the latter path?
That's why Gordon is safe until the next election.
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Nick:
Reflecting on the council and euro results, one thought crosses my mind - is the collapse in Labour's vote "the revenge of the smoker"?
Many working people enjoy relaxing at the pub or the club with a pint and a fag - and in this sense, the smoking ban has affected their way of life in a way that is far, far more immediate than, say, the public sector debt crisis, about which most people know little and care even less.
More broadly, many people bitterly resent the big increase in state interference in their daily lives over the last decade or so.
If "the revenge of the smoker" did indeed play a role in Labour's electoral catastrophe, particularly in the party's heartlands, it would be richly ironic, as the smoking ban was, I believe, the brain-child of a certain C. Flint.......
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As a conservative voter I think Brown staying is the best news I've heard in ages.
Brown has one agenda and one agenda only; to keep himself as PM. The public can see this, and will not forget how the gutless Labour party voted themselves another year in the trough before their inevitable ejection from power.
Democracy? Governing for the benefit of the people? Providing stability for the markets? Making unpopular but necessary public sector cuts to bring down the national debt? Why bother when there are expenses to be claimed?
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James Purnell refutes what you say, on BBC News Channel this morning.
Hey ho, whatever. It has happened and he has shown himself to be a man of conviction (Purnell, not Brown) and admired for having the courage of those convictions.
The rest of the wimps who have been cajoled, bullied, whatever, into staying are only saving their salaries not their faces.
Brown is a ditherer. He puts out new laws, directives and missives daily like a mad person. He wants to concentrate on the financial mess which he and America made (that is what the Europeans say and I agree) and to try and focus on the ordinary man / woman in the street and how their lives are affected by situations is beyond his ken.
Most men cannot multi-task. He certainly cannot and it won't be long before he screws up again and disappears off the landscape forever (we hope).
He is being like Robert Mugabe in imposing his position and wishes on the country and his MPs when we the public do not want him. Whioh part of the voting results does he not understand?
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14. At 11:56pm on 08 Jun 2009, rcrobjohn wrote:
"Forgive me but many people seem to have missed the point. We are supposed to live in a democracy. Labour lost in two elections on Thursday but today their leader refuses to bow out and his MPs are too cowardly to ask him to go."
Excuse me, but the elections were for local government and the European Parliament, not the Westminster one.
AND, they didn't bow out of the town halls and Europe, they were voted out.
But what's that got to do with Members of the Westminster Parliament?
To change that you need what we describe as a General Election.
And that in turn won't change who sits in the Town Hall Councils or in the European Paliament.
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The UK is becoming more and more like N Korea every day.
Constituency parties being bullied by Number Ten into disciplining MPs that criticise Brown and Ministers loosing their jobs if they don't swear allegiance to the dear leader. It's frightening.
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Ask 'what's in it for them?'
In this case the labour MPs get nearly another year's worth of 'employment' and nearly another year towards those pensions
Why would they vote for change now?
Ask 'what's in it for any alternative leader?'
Electoral defeat
Why would anyone stand?
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Musculoskeletal specialists baffled: large numbers of labour MPs still able to sit and stand despite inexplicable disappearance of their spines.
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1. I find it almost funny that when Labour (several members of) do the darks-arts it's called "spin" and "smearing" but when the Tories, in cahoots with several members of the press, plan weeks of leaks and coordinated attacks it's considered normal political discourse. They all do it I'm afraid. I'm not condoning it but let's not be so naive to think it's only Labour who do it. Cameron et al will take it to a new level when they're in 10DS
2. I find the level of antipathy towards Gordon Brown and politicians in general pretty staggering. In this country, we give people like Gazza, George Best, Joey Barton, etc numerous chances at redemption despite domestic abuse, alcoholism and violence because we like watching them kick a ball. We give people like Jade Goody and Mel Gibson second chances even when they're guilty of pretty despicable racism and bullying. Same for adulterers and all other kinds of miscreants. However, when Gordon Brown, a decent well-intentioned man who doesn't do his job for money, doesn't earn millions (he could have very easily done in the private sector given his intellect), who goes into politics to help people and to make Britain a better and fairer place, asks for patience to see the fruits of his policies on the economy and parliamentary reforms, and asks for another chance to refine his leadership style we just kick him down and, in my opinion very ungratefully, tell him to sling his hook
We need to have far more respect for the office of PM. He's not a pop star or reality show contestant; he's a guy who's trying to the best he can for ALL of us. We should get behind him now and just shut up with the whining. It's not condusive to anything and is frankly pretty tiring. No wonder there is such a shortage of talent. Who would want to represent and help us ungrateful rabble?
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#78
Quite right if Harriet "prove you are not a rapist" Harman gets in there will be meltdown.
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Gordon Brown is the Steve McClaren of British politics. He has been on the sidelines itching to take over the top job for years and when he has it he is shown to be wanting in every single respect. He is quite simply the wally with the lolly.
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Labour MPs stand up for self-interest at all costs and decide to take another 11 months worth of our money. Does this seem out of character?
The election results were absolutely clear. GB must go, but ZaNu Labour run a dictatorship and dictators don't pay any heed to the polls, they just 'get on with the work'.
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50. At 07:34am on 09 Jun 2009, delphius1 wrote:
"Last night proved Labour's total disregard for the democratic process."
I can't see how you work that out.
The reality is that last night had nothing to do with democratic process at all. Democratic process is the elections by the people of their representatives in Westminster, the Town Hall, Europe, Holyrood or wherever. The fact is that the current government does not have to call a Genreal Election (i.e. for the Westminster seats) until, at the latest, beginning of next June.
I, for one, would truly love to see fixed term parliaments, i.e. the next General Election set for a fixed four years or five years after the previous one. But that is not the system yet.
As for the PLP meeting that isn't democracy, that's just internal political shenanigans within the Labour party.
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Is the prime minister safe? How do you work this one out?
He may be safe from his own feeble, dithering party members but he's not free from calling a general election.
This has to be done within eleven months no matter how much bullying and smears they manage to pull off in the interim.
Might as well sit back and enjoy the daily car crash that is the Gordon Brown newlabour machine; it has never failed to deliver so far; one crushing defeat after another.
As for installing Alan Johnson ahead of a general election; as Home Office minister his career is effectively ended. It has been a political graveyard. Couldn't have picked a better way to finish him off myself.
The more you look at it the more it is clear the labour party has a death wish. They are determined to go down in flames screaming at the rest of the ocuntry. There is no point to the next eleven months; no new legislation will be drafted; no new policy direction taken; the much promised Gordon Brown vision still has vaseline smeared all over the lens.
Any semblance of ever being taken seriously again has been removed by this most complete acts of denial.
85% of the population are being completely ignored.
I look forward to seeeing the consequences of this in 2010.
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94. Sutara. I agree, a General Election is what is needed.
Any prevarication or intransigence by Brown et al will only give the opposition more time to muster their policies and strategy.
Whichever way it happens the most reviled PM ever will be over and out.
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Slightly off topic I know, but bear with me...
Who has Labour put up for Question Time this week? Did they voluteer or did they have to draw straws? Whoever it is, must be brave, stupid or have skin thicker than the very rare greater spotted armour plated Rhinodillo. Silly me only GB qualifies under that criteria.
Interesting poll in the Independent which reckons that if Johnson were to take over, the Tories wouldn't achieve an overall majority. Maybe the fat lady hasn't sung, come second and gone to the Priory yet...
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Why is it that most people in Britain still believe3 we are a politically self-sovereign nation? Our treasonous politicians have already signed and ratified the Lisbon Treaty, and the Treaty came into effect on 1st January, 2009.
Our current encumbents are now (EU) lawfully required to impose the EU state upon us; they are lawfully required to harmonise British law with EU law, and EU law in every instance trumps British law. ID cards, bio-metric databases, and other Orwellian and police state implementations are all part of the process of harmonizing with the EU.
Eventually, Westminster will be abolished, Parliament will be dissolved for good, forever, and as from 1st of January of this year, we are now effectively run from Brussels by unelected politburo bodies appointed on our behalf.
Of course, we are still in the early stages of implementation, but the media is not reporting the full truth of what assimilating into the EU will lead to. Why has Brown not gone to the queen to ask for Parliament to be dissolved so that a general election can be called for? Well, in truth, under EU law, it would be unlawful. Ireland is to get another referendum, whereas the rest of Britain receives none; and the reason for this is because our politicians have already ratified the Treaty on our behalf. You all need to wake up and smell the EU dictatorship and its police state!
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Gordon Brown has become irrelevant. He is just some foolish man hanging on to what he has got. He has done no great works of any lasting quality. In due course he will join all the others in the dustbin.
The Labour Party will slowly begin to rebuild itself; it it can. I believe it can do that but it must cast aside the nonsense of Blairite `modernisation' and return to being a party of the common people rather than the chosen tool of the legal-bureaucratic class. It will have to purge the middle-class Fabian wing which uses the party for the promotion of its own careers.
The British state has to be restructured and shrunk in size because it has been allowed to grow far too big for the available resouces. It must also become a lot more efficient if it is to be considered suitable as a provider of functions and services. The prevailing PSBR for this year is GBP 175 billion and the fiscal deficit is currently GBP 224 billion. There are GBP 49 billion of spending cuts currently in the pipeline and the government, this Labour government, has to come clean on those cuts. If it doesn't then the public sector will be riven by arbitrary and irrational cuts which only serve to disturb and distress.
Lastly the British people have had to learn a brutal lesson: you cannot trust the political class to look after your interests as they will only look after themselves. The state is far too powerful and needs to be cut down so that it serves the people. If it doesn't do that then what is the point of it?
There is a prospect that over time we can rebuild something that works. It will have to be conditioned by our ability to create the value and sustain the necessary outputs to maintain it. This will require major economic and political reform. There is no political party which has this as its agenda.
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Labour MP's still don't get it. As well as a deluded PM who should probably be seeking medical advice, and is detested, Labour are detested because of 10 pence tax rate abolution (which still has disadvantaged 1 million low paid workers who were promised compensation), an EU treaty referendum which was promised in their manifesto, a broken promise that Blair would serve a full 5 year term, ID cards which were not in the manifesto, etc. etc. etc. the list goes on forever. WE want a general election so that we can decide which MP's are sacked, BY US.
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What I find astonishing about all this is that I don't think I have heard Gordon Brown make any sort of statement for days. For me, his silence is deafening and Mandelson seems to do all the talking.
He took too long to respond to the MPs' expenses crisis and he apparently has nothing to say for himself on Labour's drubbing in these elections. When is he going to come out and face the electorate (and apologise for causing the BNP to gain representation in the European Parliament)?
I must admit, I haven't checked YouTube lately...
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Yes Robin, the office of Home Office Minister is one step before gardening leave. The tenure in that office is not very long and it ends in curtains.
Brown is afraid of Johnson that's why he put him there.
Brown the manipulator.
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#60 I'll point you to the family Courts , find a friend that has been on the recieving end of that and ask them (him) if it is fair and justice
then psot the answer please
for me its a NO and a NO.
Core labour values eh
Do not believe all the spin ?
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Do the Labour backbenchers not get it?
Even the half-decent ones are going to be out of a job, this time next year, if they don't up the ante on GB. Find his wound & tear it wide open, & to hell with personal repercussions. The untainted ones (few, I know) have no sensible reason to remain hanging onto the coattails of such a loser. Whoever ranges the fatal shot is going to make themselves famous. The country will love the executioner, even if the hardcore Brownites end up hating his or her guts - & who cares about them?
If Labour really are in it as a collective effort, then they should already be sufficiently motivated by their party's dismal prospective future. Anything less will just signify to voters that even those with, presently, clean hands are only in it for themselves, & that the future of the Labour party (as with the UK) is someone else's problem, not theirs.
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109. Case in point too was the 10p expenses debacle in which millions of low income pensioners suffered a doubling in their tax rate, totally against Labour's tenets of helping the poor, underprivileged etc.
He sat on the fence on that one, then he said he would not change it, then he sat on the fence again and only in the face of great opposition headed by Frank Field (who was against him this weekend too I see but hardly reported) did he back down and give back the money in dribs and drabs.
Further proof that he cannot act decisively when needed. On the contrary, he has too much pride to admit he is wrong. He will not change. He cannot.
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The Labour Party meeting last night reminds me of when I used to play in a bottom-of-the-table football side. We'd be a couple of goals down at half time, the coach would rally us around the table and give us a rousing pep talk, we'd get fired up again and kick the cr*p out of the benches...
We'd go out and hold our own for 15 minutes or so when the inevitable goal was conceded and then it was all downhill from there. The only option we had left to keep the scoreline down was roughhouse tactics and foul play.
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Comment 9, DerekBarker
Please tell me that you're being sarcastic?
Because that could be the only way to view your comments about the governments 'green' policies. Did the farce over the third runway at Heathrow escape you?
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90# Charmbrights
Nail on head comment.
By staying silent they keep Crash Man in the Titanic's wheelhouse.
All have put personal ambition before what is best for this country, and in doing so, Labour face humiliation when toasted at the election.
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109. If you haven't checked Youtube for Gordon recently check this one out :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VaP1HB7Vew
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#87
"It may not be very probable - but it is just possible - that by that point in time everyone will think the sun shines out of Gordon's rear area."
By next summer, probabilities dictate that the only thing likely to be shining out of Gordon's rear area is called Peter.
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What spineless wimps Labour MPs are!
Do they *seriously* expect Brown to change?
Do they *seriously* expect his administration to become any less accident-prone?
Do they *seriously* expect today's disenchantment (putting it mildly) with Labour to evaporate?
They are now set for just less than a year (a whole year) of stumbling performances, relaunches of the PMs 'vision' (was it ever 'launched'?), policy reversals, wildly inept and mistimed 'initiatives', embarrassing Brown-isms on You Tube at the like, episodes of Brown tantrums, leaks and briefings, and the rest. All of this with a PM who now has, clearly, no authority left in his own Cabinet.
And even if they give him the chance to 'put things right' the result will be the same: a Labour defeat of such proportions that it will set their party off on the path of civil war for a generation.
As I say, spineless wimps I'm afraid. As a supporter of the Lib Dems, of course, I think they made exactly the right decision.
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Well - this has got people rushing to their dictionaries to find ways of describing the wretched, spineless, gutless way in which the PLP acted on Monday - namely to preserve their pay and expenses for as long as possible by delaying an election until next year - and s*d teh country.
That notwithstanding, I have a certain symapathy for some of these benighted souls, because it is clear that the heavy, thuggish hand of Mandelson was in play. It serves him well to keep Brown in power - because he stays in power. Indeed, should the next question on people's lips be - who is actually running the country - lame duck Brown or the Princess of darkness!
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They just don't get it, do they - unless of course they are real politicians, like Tony Benn. He put his finger right on the spot - it isn't just the expenses scandal with Labour suffering more because they are "the party in power" - it's the broken promise of a Lisbon Treaty referendum; the lies that led us into the Iraq war; nearly 12 years of spin while crime and immigration run out of control. It's the abject failure of our education system; the parlous state of the NHS with more managers than beds; the stealth taxes; the raid on pension funds which continues to hurt; the public/private divide on gold-plated pensions and the retirement age; the Gurkhas; the cynical breaches of the unwritten contract of support for our soldiers, not only with sub-standard equipment but in their treatment when wounded. There's more, and more, and the British public have had it up to their back teeth! We aren't stupid, although New Labour persists in treating us as if we were.
They can prevaricate about whether or not Gordon Brown should stay, hoping we'll forget why only 15% of those who voted could bring themselves to support them, but we won't. Who the "front man" is just doesn't matter any more. The longer they hang on, the more determined we'll be to get rid of them. Every time one of them says "We know the people want us to stay on and sort out this mess", the foul smell wafts back. For God's sake, just get out and take your treachery, spin and corruption with you, before you totally destroy this country!
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Labour just do not get it so let me spell it out for them.
BROWN IS THE PROBLEM!
The recession we can get through.
The expenses scandal can be sorted.
It's the lies, misleading information, spin, from Brown et al that the public cannot stand.
Labour are boring!
The public have made their mind up about Brown, another few months will not reverse that fact.
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I am extremely pleased that the labour party has got behind Gordon Brown and are supporting him.
I wish the PM the best of luck, and ask MPs that still may be wondering whether to stop arguing, to just stop, it will damage your party a lot more.
Kate Silverton, If the culture secretary was to tell you the PM's weaknesses then the media would pounce on them, I take it you dislike the PM, don't start media bias reporting, it seems the BBC want the conservatives in, no support at all from the media, can we just have the news rather than your views on it!!!
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Nick
Brown might be safe from his spineless MPs, but is he safe from the financial mainstay of the labour party? Yup the Trade Unions.
Which is the biggest union and largest contributor? Unite.
Which Union is very hacked off with the Lloyds Group merger (and tyhosed who orchestrated it) and the subsequent thousands of job losses? Unite.
The union are quite rightly asking what the true picture and impact of the planned restructuring of the Group, rather than death by a thousand cuts. Unite could and should put its members first, and not fund Labour's electoral campaign.
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Well, that was probably the biggest act of moral and political cowardice since Neville Chamberlain went to Munich. Let us hope the results are not so disastrous.
For all the talk of political reform, and all the criticisms being directed at politicians of all parties, the (currently disenfranchised) electorate really have only themselves to blame. Not for electing this sorry mess of self-congratulatory, self-serving incompetents, but for forgetting that we are supposed to elect one person to represent us in our own constituency.
We are responsible for deciding whether that individual is worthy, on the basis of their personality, integrity and (dare it be said?) individual beliefs and policies. We do NOT elect a party nor (as many have already pointed out) do we elect a Prime Minister. Much of the current situation can be attributed to the transition towards 'presidential-style' politics over the past few years. Perhaps there are signs that this is now changing.
At the next election, we need some real individuals, prepared to stand for what THEY believe in and not what they are told to believe in. Individuals who will put country and people before party. Perhaps that is what our current masters fear the most?
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So let me get this right.
1 We have a PM who has been neutered and is as lame as any duck could be
2 The country is effectively being run by an unelected member of the House of Lords, ie Mandelbum.
3 The cabinet were too incompetent and too gutless to manage the removal of Brown, even that is what they wanted
4 The back-benchers, apart from an honourable few, were too spineless to get rid of Brown for fear of losing their jobs, even though that is what they wanted.
5 The "new" cabinet is full of unelected members of the House of Lords
6 The electorate (in two elections) has told Labour that they are not what they want to govern the UK
7 The government says that we, the public, don't want Brown to go and really want him to sort out the expenses scandal (partly his making), the economic problems and the huge debt problem (mainly of his making).
8 Our wonderful media (including Nick) allowed Brown to tell porkies about Balls and the amount to be spent on Health, Education, etc, in future at his press conference on Friday, without calling him to account.
I suppose that's democracy in action.
GOD HELP US ALL
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118. At 09:43am on 09 Jun 2009, Ello_Ello wrote:
#87
"It may not be very probable - but it is just possible - that by that point in time everyone will think the sun shines out of Gordon's rear area."
By next summer, probabilities dictate that the only thing likely to be shining out of Gordon's rear area is called Peter.
-----------------------------------------------------
Ooooh, I really wish you hadn't said that. it's too disturbing an image.
Although for Peter...........
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112 Ello
Lets hope that Kelly recommends, and it is accepted, that MPs severance and pensions are drastically cut before the next election and it is agreed in parliament.
Some hopes!!!
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Gordon who? The story of the day is that Alan Johnston doesn't want to be the guy to lose the next election. Smart, but gutless.
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95. At 09:21am on 09 Jun 2009, Wee-Scamp wrote:
The UK is becoming more and more like N Korea every day.
Constituency parties being bullied by Number Ten into disciplining MPs that criticise Brown and Ministers loosing their jobs if they don't swear allegiance to the dear leader. It's frightening.
==========================================================
How long until we all have to have a picture of our glorious leader in our living room so that we can admire it daily.
The whole thing is utterly sickening.
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#117
That one's old. Though it certainly adds to the present line of thinking that he really is the bogeyman.
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I think those of us who comment on these blogs sometimes forget the fact that we are the tiny minority of people who are interested enough in politics to do so. Most people are not that interested and are simply swayed by the current media view. Consequently, things can change quickly. Harold Wilson commented that a week is a long time in politics - so 11 months is an age.
It's easy to see Mandy's plan. First reform the MP expenses system. That's quite straightforward really - no harder than doing the same for a large coroporate. Add in a few longer range ideas about constitutional change to give the impression of 'vision' - claim all the credit for Brown. Second, wait for green shoots on the economy. There are one or two slightly more promising signs already. Keep bashing the 'Brown has saved the world' drum until people start believing it. Third, fight the election on the public spending debate. Very few people understand Government debt or its longer term consequences. It doesn't affect them on a day to day basis - it's just a big number with a lot of zeros on it. Labour will promise the moon on a stick on spending using the 'grow your way out of recession' mantra, suggesting the debt mountain will evaporate painlessly once the recession is over. They will be stop at nothing to scare people into believing that electing the Tories means kids without classes and the sick being turned away from hospitals. They will come up with a form of words that leaves them free to make cuts of their own and raise taxes still further after the election. The Tories know that we have to start balancing the books but the more they talk about it the more they play into Labour's hands. New Labour - the third way - yes, you can have your cake and eat it too. This will prove seductive to a lot of people. Everything is still to play for.
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118 Ello
Agreed.
Probably accompanied by Nick Brown and Ben Bradshaw.
I'm sure Gordo would enjoy the experience.
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Nick
What snide coverage last night on the BBC news when talking about the new BNP MEPs. After the usual 'Labour slump let in BNP' misrepresentation, you then jumped to a section where the report said something along the lines of
"BNP MEPs will be entitled to a salary of £80,000 and expense of up to £130,000 and a daily attndance allowance of £217"
What was the point of that? ARE BNP MEPs the only ones entitled to this? You didn't mention these details when talking about other parties. The only thing I can think is that you wanted to be able to get "BNP" "MEP" and "expenses" in the same sentance as if trying to start throwing "expenses" mud at the BNP before they even take their seats.
I am no supporter of the BNP but I thought the BBC were supposed to be impartial. Clearly you are not and you should be ASHAMED at that PATHETIC piece of reporting.
The only thing you have done is make me distrust anything the BBC says in future about the BNP.
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So the ship sails on with Captain Calamity at the helm. I do not understand why we bother having elections anymore because we have Brown and the Labour Party telling us what we will be doing anyway.
It is obvious from the European results that we should be having a vote on the Lisbon Treaty but I believe we will not get one.
It is obvious from the local results that the people want see a General election to have their say on Brown and his Government but I believe we will not get one.
It is obvious that with the BNP gaining two seats that people want something done about immigration but I believe it will continue the same.
Just changing Brown for Alan Johnson will not do the trick there are far deeper problems here. Anyway would we really want a man to be a PM when he cannot even challenge Brown for the leadership, pretty spineless that. Johnsons moment has now passed. The real problem of course is that the Labour Party have no talent left to call on for a challenge to Brown. The Labour Party have moved so far away from the electorate and now have no mandate to continue that only a General Election will do.
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What a truly spineless party!
It is over, Brown cannot trust anyone now, like a petty dictator, after any major knock back, he will now constantly be looking over his shoulder for the invisible assassin, and sleep with a gun under his pillow.
The trust has gone within his Party. Darling Miliband and the rest of his generals are all now dictating the rhetoric, with the unelected Mandleson pulling the strings.
Labour is a party which is for all intents and purposes split, like Yugoslavia Put Blair in for Tito. The Blairites and the Brownites just won't go together, and will be constantly sniping at each other to gain ground.
They have had their day in the sun and now after time the true hatred of one another is starting to show through.
Like the Tories with the Euro split, the government is doomed; no amount of posturing will change that, however the Tories realised over time that this had to be put behind them, and have told us that they will allow us the electorate decide the future for this country and Europe, democracy? Labour have not the luxury of time to resolve even the smallest of issues as all factions of the party will put Brown down as soon as he does not tow the line of his now stronger senior cabinet members. He is in effect a puppet PM.
And as for Browns line yesterday, bleating on about learning from his mistakes. Did he not say something similar when he took over from Blair? Again during the 2008 Party conference? And after the 10p nonsense.
Either he is making too many mistakes or he is learning nothing. This is not the right person to be a leader, but it is too late. They are stuck with him and they will sink with him.
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#120
"who is actually running the country - lame duck Brown or the Princess of darkness!"
Even that snake has slipped up, twice, in the past. Now, it's simply a matter of time as to when it happens next. I'm still waiting for Peter's third betrayal of Gord, before the crucifixion.
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re: .54 branditony
Exactly. Nicely put :-)
It makes you wonder why NuLab even bothers with elections.
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I can't work out if labour MPs are too stupid to understand what the voters have just told them (ie "we don't like your leader *or* your party anymore; you've destroyed the country, and we want a general election to kick you all out") or if they're so selfish trying to keep the next 12 months' wages/expenses that they just don't care about the electorate/country/economy at all. My guess is that it's both.
Changing leader is irrelevant; it's the general labour attitude and policies which people don't like, and the fact that they've destroyed the economy yet they still say "we'll do more of the same; more debt; more tax. don't worry, we know best. nothing is our fault. the voters tell us they want us in power forever. elections are bad things to have."
Their "fix" is to go even more left-wing; it means they'll retain some of their "core" votes but alienate everyone else. Blair wasn't stupid; he knew that you couldn't win a general election by only focussing on union members and the unemployed; you need to also keep at least one or 2 working/productive members of society with you. Brown/Labour have forgotten that there are people out there other than union members and the unemployed. Their "fix" (ie "let's go stalin on the voters, our core vote will like that") will just make their overall vote collapse even further.
People in the south didn't annihilate labour at the euro election because of expenses; they voted against them because labour have destroyed the economy/country.
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Keeping Gordon Brown as leader shows just how out of touch Labour have become.
The recent elections have certainly shown 'the people' know it. Deposing Brown they could have clawed back some credibility with the voters.
However, when it came to the 'will of the people' and most Labour MP's self interest, they chose the latter. Preferring to keep their jobs and perks as long as possible.
Come the General Election they will find Hell hath no fury like an electorate scorned!
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Shahid Malik is to be returned to the Government, this dreadful person who epitomized everything that is wrong with this Labour Government through his TV interviews should never have returned.
What on earth must the public think to this decision, if someone like this is cleared of expenses wrong doing it does not bode well for clean up in Parliament by Labour.
Can this get any worse.
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Well I fore one are happy that Brown as seen off those in PLP that want Brown out
Because most of those who wanted Brown out had been fingered in dodgy claims on expenses
They did not quit because they did something wrong they quit because they fear that Gordon Brown is going to bring in such a tight pay expenses and allowances system that they don't want there names put to it as members of the cabinet
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134
Re the BNP.
As long as this is a democracy the BNP are entitled to stand in General, Local Government and European elections, and if elected be paid for doing so. I have no problem with that. In a democracy veryone has the right to be represented by a party that reflects their views. In fact banning the BNP, as some suggest, might just lead to trouble on the streets. Let them have their say and make up your own mind.
They are certainly pressing all the right buttons, unlike Labour, if TV coverage from Barnsley yesterday is balanced and correct (never sure these days).
And why?
Labour no longer meets the needs of the general public, particularly in poorer working class areas.
While I will never vote for the BNP, I can understand why tens of thousands do, and is is not much to do with racism. It is desperation.
Only by meeting the aspirations of the majority will Labour survive. This is an areas where they are failing spectacularly.
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Gordon Brown didn't create the banking crisis, American Banks did.
Gordon Brown didn't create the Recession. The Media did.
Gordon Brown didn't create the system that allowed for MP expenses to be exploited, it was in existence long before Labour came to power.
We are being dragged around by the nose ring by the media in order that they can have the next story that will help them sell newspapers and advertising space.
He may or may not be the right man for the job, but getting rid of him in the middle of this crisis will set the country in to turmoil, and may even be economic suicide. He's having a very tough time of it, and the way he is holding up and fighting back has earned a lot of respect from me.
Despite people's attempts to convince us that they know the future on here. If he holds out til next year and things change for the better, he may well be being hailed as a hero in 12 months time.
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re 35 mediahustler
sticks and stones..............
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The pressure on the PM had the effect of taking the attention off expenses problems which must have suited all the main party leaders whilst the fraction of the electorate who bothered to turn out to vote were casting their votes. It has struck me for the past year... and this is a personal observation and opinion, we have an intelligent, principled and hard working man as PM, who has taken over from a presidential-style media-orientated leadership. The media feel cheated and would like to get rid of him.
Another very personal point to make.
I do not like to be told how to think by any political party, printed or transmitted media. It makes me angry enough to bother with Nick's newslog.
I had the misfortune to pick up one of our tabloids when passing time with a cup of coffee in a local cafe before joining a walk yesterday. The only article I found which was not either skewed towards a half-clothed girl, or journalistic opinion, was the rather alarming and entertaining story of how David Blunkett nearly got squashed by a cow. We avoided cows on our walk as a consequence.
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96. At 09:21am on 09 Jun 2009, mrsbloggs13c2 wrote:
"Ask 'what's in it for them?' In this case the labour MPs get nearly another year's worth of 'employment' and nearly another year towards those pensions. Why would they vote for change now? Ask 'what's in it for any alternative leader?' Electoral defeat. Why would anyone stand?"
That's just about right. You might also add the risk of dissenters to the status quo risking being 'shafted' by the Labour bosses one way or another. And if they do run into the next election and lots of them lose, then the employability of ex Labour MPS will be pretty low.
If the economy is looking up in a year's time then losing the MP's salary and expenses might not be so painful by then.
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Brown is right not to capitulate. CAMERON IS A WOLF in sheeps clothing he would have let the banks go to the wall and unemployment soar to 4 million to achieve lower wages and stricter trade union controls and a bigger purse for his tory loyals... always remember Cameron's immortal words
THANK GOD FOR MARGARET THATCHER - BEWARE !!!!!
could you go back to that ???
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If I am being stupid please excuse me.
But why would NuLab call an election now? They still have a large parliamentary majority. They all fear they will not be re-elected and thus be on the employment scrap heap when an election is called. Even if they replaced GB they would still lose the next election. They are happy for GB to remain in place as I can't imagine any of them wants to receive the poisoned chalice from him right now.
No wonder it is business as usual for NuLab.
It just shows the failing of our political system when a powerful party that has outstayed its welcome is allowed to remain in place.
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Great! we now have to suffer a year of paralysis and dither while Brown waits for 'something to turn up'. He will then lead the Labour party into the wilderness leaving us all at the mercy of an unrestrained and rampant Conservative government.
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C'mon folks give this PM some credit he's the best guy the media loves for front page stories... and cartoons.
I've never heard such waffle of saying this guys a Tory winner it's up to the Tories to put his policies to shame, make him feel belittled and keep the Labour back benches rattled... thats what they need to do to get him out and make him feel unsafe not dwelling on Labour to get shut of him for them... they need to make this guy wobble big style and give and keep the back benches rattled, crying out week after week to have an election ain't gonna do nothing apart from making them look like fools.
Personally I find Brown arrogant because hes certainly NOT listening to the British people by refusing an election - man, he's running scared, if he's so sure he's the best man for the job why is he afraid, sticks out like a sore thumb doesn't it?
This guy's a ruler not a leader and never will be! If he had a pea as a brain cell, he would think whats gonna happen if there should be a crucial vote... the guy must go, and go now so the whole darn lot can be settled and get shut of these unelected folks he's got.
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To unseat the PM, labour would require courage, conviction, organisational competence and an alternative leader.
labour has NONE of these attributes and the MPs know it and the country knows it.
Labour are finished because they have nobody better than a pathetic, flawed and incompetent man who has effectively killed off the labour party as a mainstream party and reduced them to the extremist fringe. He is a man who lead that party to a "victorious" defeat of epic proportions. The man that lost Wales to the Tories and Scotland to the SNP and labour down to 15%!
Labour MPs and the people of this country know that they have nobody better and even if there was, there would not be the courage, nor the organisational ability to effect the coup anyway.
I do not believe that labour would DARE introduce PR, as their showing under PR at the EU election saw them reduced to a fringe party, and not even the leading fringe party. They came second to another fringe party. Additionally if they introduced PR they would be opening the door of the Commons to the BNP and they know it.
The ONLY ray of hope for labour is the fact that under FTPF, the constituency boundaries are MASSIVELY biased in labour's favour to the extent that if the tories and labour both managed to get an equal number of votes at 35% share, then labour would win an outright majority of 48 seats. Whereas the tories would need an 12% lead in the share of the vote to achieve the same majority. They need a 10% lead in share just to barely get a majority. The system is SO BAD for Britain, that labour can lose the election in terms of votes cast and STILL form a majority government!
This inherent bias in the seating boundaries MUST be one of the things looked at in the forthcoming constitutional and democratic changes, though I would not hold by breath on labour looking at doing anything to address the massive undemocratic bias in the electoral system, unless labour themselves were to be the sole beneficiaries.
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144, Simon Attwood
I don't think so.
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So Gordon Brown is listening to the people.
Funny I thought most of the people wanted him to resign.
He is taking a long time over it, meaning he wants the people to suffer more of a bad lot.
Also it appears Mandy is now running the government and the country
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The expenses trauma shall become less of a factor - in 12 months things will have calmed a lot from now.
Personally, I felt it was always more than the expenses. They were the straw which broke the camel's back.
It felt as though people were angry about lack of representation from their representatives. Also, there is a lot of anger amongst Labour supporters at so much promise and trust given to Labour in 1997 which has been squandered.
Iraq may seem like history - but it is like a family member who nicks something when they visit - you have to get on with them but the trust has evaporated. We have seen promises and lies throughout this term. And hypocrisy. A Prime Minister in the shape of Blair who smiled as he lied. His only saving grace - at least he made decisions. Brown - for all his gruff intensity - seems unable to decide on anything without a rush to his aide's for what will "look" best. His gut instinct for people is missing. Blair would have sensed the anger at the injustice over the Gurkha settlements.
Brown is looking at being a Labour equivalent of John Major. Seen as the decaying end of a period of Politics dominated by his predecessor and unable to shake the feeling he never really deserved it.
And to add insult to injury - he has even lost his towering and lofty claim to being "Iron". His plaudits for financial management are now almost embarrassing given what it led into. And he seems to have trampled, manipulated and bullied his way to the top and never realised that achieving power and being able to wield it are not automatic bed-fellows. He seems to have made too many enemies and you sow what you seed.
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143. Curiously, UKIP fought their European Election on an anti-immigration (on rigid border control) and getting out of Europe but they are not mentioned anywhere as being racist.
I do not think either party are actually racist, its just that the BNP are more shrill, strident and appeal to the hard core socialist type of young Labour voters who feel Labour have let them down.
UKIP run by an ex Conservative, Nigel Farage, would appeal more to the middle classes.
The message is more or less the same. UKIP were laughed out of court when they first started up but look at them now! I predict a rise for the BNP too.
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146 newtactic - THANK YOU. You are the voice of reason
The media has it in for Gordon as he doesn't want to play any of their tiresome and exploitive games. I remember watching a particularly distasteful interview with him on SKY when one of the newsreaders took him to task for not letting us in to meet his wife and children. I know the morals and what passes for culture in this country are really in the drain but I don't particularly want to see my PM all over the front of Hello and Okay.
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# 13 Was thinking this myself. Major had two years of being an "unelected" PM before facing a general election - Oh how history repeats itself!
#93 - And I agree about the lack of respect - for the office he hold more than anything else - whatever anyone thinks about the MAN he is the Prime Minister - until an election is called.
#23 - agreed - if only he would smile more - at least its seems sincere rather than forced and toothy like Blair
#31 and 95 - major difference between Brown and Mugabe and Britain and Zimbabwe - appears to be the freedom of speech we're participating in here. Aligning Britains problems with these two countries is a tad over exaggerated and distasteful.
------------------------------------
I would suggest that the media has a fairly large role in the trials facing the current PM - more specifically 24 hour media, soundbites and sensation rather than considered and rational argument. Yes the country is recession, yes the MP's appear to be emptying the public purse to feather their own nests, but am I honestly supposed to believe its the fault of one person? Blair must be laughing up his sleeve.
And could someone please explain how Cameron proposes to persuade the Labour vote to rally for his team when the election does roll round? Looking at the vote shares the Tories didnt make much impact into the Labour camp - the simply maximised teir vote while Labour stayed home. Is it possible for Cameron to achieve this? Im not sure
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It's quite simple.
We just need a senior labour party official to stand up and say
"Right, who wants to be the second ever UK prime minister to have never won an election"
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104. At 09:28am on 09 Jun 2009, flamepatricia wrote:
"94. Sutara. I agree, a General Election is what is needed.
Any prevarication or intransigence by Brown et al will only give the opposition more time to muster their policies and strategy.
Whichever way it happens the most reviled PM ever will be over and out."
However, whether it appeases the people or not, that General Election could still be nearly a year away - under the present system.
Reading some of the blogs here, I do think that some people need to recognise that Labour Party political strategy - probably quite reasonably - is to drag it out as long as possible on the grounds that, probably, things can only get better. I mean why let your backbenchers make you go out on at a low point? Perhaps, hopefully for them, there just may be higher points in the next few months - particularly if the cleaning up Parliament thing goes well and if the economy starts to recover.
Remember - people have short memories!
And, of course, that also pays the MPs too, because it keeps them in a job longer.
All of which has absolutely zero to do with democracy. But democracy doesn't really come into it until the point at which the Government calls the next election. THEN it becomes a matter of people exercising their democratic rights.
There is just a slight possibility that the motion for dissolution of Parliament that is going to be debated (tomorrow?) will go somewhere, but I suspect that has already been politially 'managed' by the Labour bosses, so I'll not recommend anyone hold their breath waiting for that one.
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I have never understood the 'misinformation' pushe around that there is someone waiting in the wings to challenge Mr Broone. So many, many things are so very, very wrong for a serious contender to make such a suicidal decision making the electorate consider him devoid of any sound judgement before he even sets out his stall.
Labour will lose the next election no matter who is leader.
If this isn't realised, then the party is in cloud cuckoo land. So who in his/her right mind is going to wish to take over the party simply to lead it into oblivion? Only a fool.
No. Much better for Mr Broone to finish what he started by insisting on remaining to the bitter end for then he will march with his troops over the precipice.
Only then will serious contenders spring forth, able to claime loyalty but with a clear run to sweep the decks clean and put things to rights. At least a decade I should think; so there's no hurry.
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144. At 10:21am on 09 Jun 2009, SimonAttwood
here, here
People need to be more patient, respect the PMs office whether you like him or not
Stop you whingeing
Two options remain:
A) Put up
or
B) Shut up
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"SimonAttwood wrote:
Gordon Brown didn't create the banking crisis, American Banks did.
Gordon Brown didn't create the Recession. The Media did.
Gordon Brown didn't create the system that allowed for MP expenses to be exploited, it was in existence long before Labour came to power."
Oh Dear....
GB deregulated the banks so that the BofE could no longer stop UK banks lending wildly.
And that's right, it was the Daily Mail that closed down LDV yesterday. And I think it was the Sun that overspent so much on the Government's budget that the UK will be borrowing more in the next 2 years than we have in the last 300. Stupid Independent on Sunday, promising an end to boom and bust.
And poor old GB, just 12 years in power. He could reform the banking system, the tax system, the health system, education and take us into a couple of wars amongst 1001 initiatives....but reform the expenses system of 650 people (the size of one of the micro companies he dumped red tape on by the hundredweight)? Oh, no, no chance of that, poor thing. He was stuck with that, no chance of his presbyterian ethos, his moral compass, his sense of justice being turned on that particular topic...
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"Do you really want some chameleon who is going to lie and deceive you at every turn? Give me Gordon any day of the week"
So you would rather have Brown..... because his lies are more obvious?
He lies every but as much as Blair did, but without the fake sincerity.
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123. defenderofparliament
New Labour were the 'darlings' of Rupert Murdoch and the media back in the day.
Now the tide has turned and their support is evaporating, it happens all over the world, the media do not generally support losers. And they aren't the kingmakers of yesteryear either.
If any green shoots start turning into a full recovery then the media will change their tune. The staunch left and right rags aside, they're a fickle bunch. Even Nick is starting to move with the breeze a bit.
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107. At 09:31am on 09 Jun 2009, stanilic wrote:
"Gordon Brown has become irrelevant."
Actually, I think the real problem is that the Westminster Parliament has, in many respects, become irrelevant.
With the devolved Assemblies & Scottish Parliament and with the law coming from the European Parliament the great drama of the Great British General Election is really what it was - except for journalists trying to fill up 24 hour rolling news with stories that sound perhaps more dramatic than they truly are.
In fact, in many respects, this whole Gordon Brown thing is somewhat 'much ado about nothing'. But I guess it keeps the viewing figures up for the news channels.
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well mr robinson,
you tried and tried and with clever wordplay tried your very best to get rid of Mr Brown....and still could not manage it.
i've also read the comments of other people and one person said "labour no longer meets the needs of the general public" well...i don't think the general public knows any more what their needs are! even after the credit crunch scare we're all still so greedy!! when are we going to learn??
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The choice is now made - for whatever reason
GB will lead the Labour party into the next election and a likely stuffing.
How bad a result will dictate if its a long time in opposition or possible disappearance.
I'm disappointed that the Labour party bottled this - I guess they'll have to live with their choice
I for one have little or no respect for them after this
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There is only one reason why Brown has survived....
..The PLP does not care one jot for the Country..only its Members survival and the retention of their jobs.
That is it..period!
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So after 12 years combined in the two most important, influential posts in the country, GB admits he still has lessons to learn.
Dear god, how long are we supposed to give him?
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The Labour Party have got themselves into a real mess over this. The rules etc of their party mean that to start to remove the leader they would need 72 MPs to nominate a single candidate. This simply isn't going to happen, as no one would volunteer to be the candiate, and there are not 72 MPs with the backbone to break cover and support them if they did.
The only alternative is that Gordon Brown decides to stand down - but given his persona, this simply isn't going to happen either.
So there they are, totally paralysed by their own rules. Who knows what they all really think of the situation? They can't change the situation, whats in it for them to be seen rocking the boat. But will it be any easier to remove Gordon Brown after the election ? Probably not, if the rule stay the same.
So the PLP are stuck with Gordon Brown, and thereby, the people of this country are stuck with him too. The difference is that for the electorate, we will definitely have an opportunity to remove him in the next 12 months - at least as PM, and if that happens no one will be bothered if he is still leader of the PLP. Assuming that there will still be a PLP to lead.
As one poster said recently, Gordon Brown has moved the PLP turkeys into the Bernard Matthews processing plant, and there is no vote required on Christmas, as Christmas is coming to meet them, and its getting closer each day!
Provided Gordon Brown doesn't do any more damage to the country until then (highly unlikely) then I'm quite happy to wait until an election has to be called, he's not going to gho on his own, and all yesterdays PLP goings on are irrelevant.
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johncarrelson 98
I have read a couple of your posts now all along the same lines I thought at first you were joking but perhaps you are serious.
The difference between keeping an inept Prime Minister in place and giving him a second chance as to giving a a celebrity a second chance is that they do damage to the Country a celebrity does not. Brown by his policies has the ability to make or break Britain as a Country. He has broken the economy and our society which you complain about. Labour as a Government has done more than anyone else to get close to and promote celebrities so I do not really see your point here.
We cannot afford to keep Brown and Labour in place because we need a Government who will take the right decisions for the Country not the right ones for Labour. Our economy is the foundation on which our jobs, lives and services rely and Brown will not take the right decisions because he is afraid of losing votes and putting Labour out of power.
In other words the Labour Party and power means much more to Brown and his cronies than the Country does. So they hang onto their jobs without having the integrity to realise they are doing untold damage both to democracy and the Country.
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119. At 09:45am on 09 Jun 2009, Woundedpride wrote:
"What spineless wimps Labour MPs are!
Do they *seriously* expect Brown to change?
Do they *seriously* expect his administration to become any less accident-prone?
Do they *seriously* expect today's disenchantment (putting it mildly) with Labour to evaporate?"
Probably not, but as their jobs are on the line, it's perhaps worth the gamble - and the alternatives don't look all that great.
I mean, are your "seriously" surprised?
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re post 11
Agree with post 21. Saying that Andrew Marr's interview with mandy was anti labour beggars belief. How about 'pro-people' as a better desription? What a small world JamesJimin must live in. Believe it or not, the majority of the country as illustated last week has had enough of labour or does everybody else just "not understand"? Poor thing. Here is a suggestion. Take a print out of your submission and pop it in a safe. In a few years when you have grown up take another look at it. Then maybe you will have matured.
As for the Gordon cabinet meeting video this morning. Is it me or did he have his "i think i have got away with it" face on?
We need a strong labour party. If the best we have is sitting around that cabinet table then they will not be in power for many many years after the election. What a sad day.
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What a ghastly mess. But what do you expect from a bunch of cynical self-servers. Look at the case of the Gurkhas. Remember the disgraceful 'it'll cost US 1.4 billion' argument. The Gurkhas are not the sort to have in UK. Why? Public outrage caused a U-turn. The reason the Gurkhas were undesirable is because they are tainted. Part of the British cultural landscape they wish to rub out of the history books. They are tainted because of their association with the army. They are disciplined and given their 'exposure' to their officers and NCO's over decades not necessarily natural Labour voters. Their loyalty is to the Crown (boring eh Labour). Labour doesn't understand the army and never has. Its culture is service. Labour needs victims whose victimhood has to be redressed with other peoples money. If there are no victims they will find them and build up their victimhood and on and on. That is the way they create their client classes. Gurhkas did not fit the victim stereotype. Couldn't be made a dependent lobby. Well done Joanna.
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112. At 09:37am on 09 Jun 2009, Ello_Ello wrote:
"Do the Labour backbenchers not get it?
Even the half-decent ones are going to be out of a job, this time next year, if they don't up the ante on GB."
My guess is that they do get it. Being out of a job in 11 months time is surely better than being out of a job in 2 or 3 months time. They may even be able to afford this year's summer holiday and Christmas as well.
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59. At 08:29am on 09 Jun 2009, Witneylass wrote:
"However "safe" Brown is - for now - it is obvious that taking the Labour Party into the next election is going to prove fatal. Much discussion has been made about who should succeed him but I think the answer is obvious - HARRIET HARMAN"
===========
Harman is the main reason why I no longer vote Labour. I happen to think that Brown is doing as good a job as anybody could under these very difficult circumstances and in spite of the media agenda to replace him with someone more photogenic.
But the possibility, however remote, of Harman in charge is very scary. I consider her to be a threat to freedom.
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Labour trolling at its best...
The media caused the recession!!
Anything else? Climate change? Swine flu?
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168. Cardiff Opinion.
I am writing to you in case you are Welsh and can throw some light on the Glenys Kinnock situation?
As I see it (and read elsewhere) she actually stood down as an MEP BEFORE the European Elections due to the Welsh being disenchanted with her and giving her a bad press.
Now I hear on the BBC that she is considering whether to stay on as an MEP! Surely even though she may not have resigned she wasn't even re-elected in Wales anyway?
Looks to me like one hell of a cover up and face saving exercise to smooth over the void left by Caroline Flint.
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What about calling for a mass silent demonstration across all the major cities in the Uk asking for people just to pitch up to a predetermined point at a given time over a weekend say at the the end of the month? No speeches, no marches, just whoever thinks we should have an election. Simple.
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Well the spineless have made their choice - we've probably got to wait nearly a year til we can finally drag Gordon kicking and screaming from No.10.
It would have been nice if one of them could have thought of us, but if thats what they want then fine, because it will complete their rebranding experiment nicely:
Labour -> New Labour -> Who are Labour?
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128. At 09:54am on 09 Jun 2009, mikepko wrote:
"Lets hope that Kelly recommends, and it is accepted, that MPs severance and pensions are drastically cut before the next election and it is agreed in parliament."
Now THAT WOULD PUT the political cat amongst the pigeons!
But, somehow or other, even if proposed, I suspect it would be 'politically managed' away.
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flamepatricia (156) woooa! The BNP most definitely ARE a racist party. They won't allow black people to join - couldn't be any clearer. UKIP's policies of leaving the EU and opposing open border immigration are not racist per se. My experience of political campaigning is that there is a lot of racism out there, not least among traditional Labour voters. So I'm not surprised to see the BNP making progress especially with the more 'legitimate' image they have been cultivating lately. Our reaction to this should be to take on their arguments not try to assume the moral high ground. We must not risk further alienating the substantial numbers of people who voted for them last week. We need to work out how to win them back.
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144. At 10:21am on 09 Jun 2009, SimonAttwood wrote:
Gordon Brown didn't create the banking crisis, American Banks did.
Gordon Brown didn't create the Recession. The Media did.
Gordon Brown didn't create the system that allowed for MP expenses to be exploited, it was in existence long before Labour came to power.
-------------------------------------------------------
I have never heard anything so silly in all my life.
We had a credit bubble of our own you know, that is why a lot of other Countries blame Britain and America for the crisis. This in turn infected other banks around the world.
The media were able to make banks fail and put people out of their homes, jobs and Government debt to go through the roof were they?
Brown may not have created the system of expenses, but the abuses increased from the time of Blair taking office in 1997. Labour have had 12 years to reform them, why didnt they if they are so honourable and upright.
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Long live Brown the Incompetent.
All hail to the Sub Prime Minister.
Many thanks.
from
a Conservative voter
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161. At 10:40am on 09 Jun 2009, walrus wrote:
"I have never understood the 'misinformation' pushed around that there is someone waiting in the wings to challenge Mr Broone. So many, many things are so very, very wrong for a serious contender to make such a suicidal decision making the electorate consider him devoid of any sound judgement before he even sets out his stall.
Labour will lose the next election no matter who is leader.
If this isn't realised, then the party is in cloud cuckoo land. So who in his/her right mind is going to wish to take over the party simply to lead it into oblivion? Only a fool.
No. Much better for Mr Broone to finish what he started by insisting on remaining to the bitter end for then he will march with his troops over the precipice.
Only then will serious contenders spring forth, able to claime loyalty but with a clear run to sweep the decks clean and put things to rights. At least a decade I should think; so there's no hurry."
Excellent assessment of the situation in my view.
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As you say Nick, the British Prime Minister has put off the inevitable for now.
I don't mean his inevitable ousting as PM and Labour leader, what GB has put on hold for now is the inevitable slide of British politics into celebrity-driven reality TV.
Whenever GB does go, we need to waive a fond farewell, one to rival the passing of the steam railway, local newspapers or flying boat journeys to India.
Like or loathe the man, agree with centre-left politics or not, Gordon Brown is the last of a dying breed, like Edward Heath or Michael Foot, a person who entered politics for unselfish reasons and got all the way to the top.
GB's biggest problem has not been a lack of ability or experience, leadership or dedication. His biggest problem is quite simply how he looks and sounds.
In 1909, 1939, even in 1969, his private way of going about things, his awkward manner of speech and forced smile would have been an irrelevancy, but in 2009 he is a lamb to the media slaughter.
Ready to pounce are David Milliband, Nick Clegg and David Cameron - new faces to brush aside the old in the way that soap opera characters have been replaced by the young and the sexy to prop up flagging TV ratings. But at least DM, NC and DC are politicians. The general election in a years time will see the beginning of a new era as actors and media presenters stand for office. Our scandal hungry news media will gladly play its part in turning Parliament into the Big Brother House of Commons as celebrity takes the place of ability.
Its all going to be very entertaining but as the world financial system turned to water last Autumn, I do wonder if leaders around the World would have beaten a path to Esther Rantzens door?
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Re: 17. At 00:00am on 09 Jun 2009, johncarrelson wrote:
For all the comments that contradict themselves and end up defeating their own argument this one must be awarded first prize. The article starts by advocating responsibility. It then goes on to request that Gordon Brown should not be held responsible for all the problems he has created. It was Gordon not the Tories that took away the strict regulation of banks that existed up ot 1997 (Banks were rock solid, financially secure and in no need of massive bail outs from the taxpayer back in 1997 before we let Gordon Brown loose on our economy). No one forced Gordon Brown to pour endless sums of money into unreformed public services most of which has been wasted. It is because of his policies we find ourselves with a budget defecit expected to top £1.4 trillion in the next two years and which will create a massive drag on our economy once we have to start paying it back. Rather than call other people thick start taking some responsibility yourself and stop supporting this government.
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So, the Conservatives to win the next election, then. They must be over the moon!
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Can anybody help re my post above on Glenys Kinnock? What do you think Susan?
Read this, it is confusing to say the least :
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/welsh-politics/welsh-politics-news/2009/06/03/taxpayer-s-alliance-don-t-rate-mep-glenys-kinnock-91466-23775096/
If she was such rubbish as an MEP howcome she is Minister for Europe being parachuted into the Lords by Brown?
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Susan-Croft - Get Real and stop believing everything you read in the Mail and Times.
THIS COUNTRY IS NOT BROKEN NOR IS IT ON IT'S KNEES. I'm sick of being told this rubbish.
I admit we've seen a lot of problems of late over the bankers and expenses, but Britain is a far more prosperous and "better" and "happier" place to be now than it was at anytime under the Cons. For the last 12 years we've had PMs whose care and concern for the country didn't stop at the Watford Gap.
Susan - you have a choice. It's very simple. Either we have an isolationist outlook like N.Korea/Iran or we have a globally dependent economy. Choosing the latter means taking the rough with the smooth. At the moment's its rough and its rough for everyone but it's not the fault of this government. Why can't people see that?
If anything Susan, whatever problems or "brokeness" we have in this country (lack of industry, social cohesion, crime) are down to the criminal neglect of Thatcher and her government, who cared only for rich and no one else. She created the "selfish-ness" and "me, me, me" behavior that led the bankers to do the despicable things they did
You all seem to undermine Brown at every turn citing his lies, spin & "un-election" but don't forget your adored Thatcher started a war to get herself re-elected and Major was "un-elected" for two years
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Conclusive proof, if it were needed, that Labour politicians put their own ability to fleece another 12 months of expenses and salary off the taxpayer ahead of the needs of the country. The whole lot of them should hang their heads in shame - they are a disgrace.
Seriously, we've got another 12 months of this complete idiot running our country into the ground. I can only imagine that their entire efforts will be put into a monumental scorched earth policy to try and limit the length of the Conservatives time in office.
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Nick, is it true that speaking after the meeting, Gordon was heard to say "I have in my hand a piece of paper..."
#91 wrote "Reflecting on the council and euro results, one thought crosses my mind - is the collapse in Labour's vote "the revenge of the smoker"?
Many working people enjoy relaxing at the pub or the club with a pint and a fag - and in this sense, the smoking ban has affected their way of life in a way that is far, far more immediate than, say, the public sector debt crisis, about which most people know little and care even less."
I think the answer is a very definite no. The smoking ban is about the only thing that ZanuLabour have got right, as it means I can now relax in the pub with friends, and not go home smelling like a used ashtray.
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Hmm, I think far to much has been made of the euro results. Policticans are interested in polls because they use this as part of their complicated vanity measure. But the turnout suggests that people are not really interested in europe. Just now. I think for once for the right reasons. There is more attention on getting domestic politics and democracy corrected. It is a sad reflection that we do live in a society of personality politics. The policies are a very poor second. Policy and there outcomes should be the measure but the feasting on Brown suggests that regardless of what policy initative he determines his face no longer fits. At this particuar point in our history that is a shame. Politicans are very fickle and time after time they have demonstrated they are only intrested in themselves and the pusuit of power. It is becoming like a very poor reality tv show. In a time of historical importance, what does that say about us and the poilticans that represent us. In some ways they are only mirrors on society, and if that is true we are a ugly rotten bunch..
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David Miliband has said Labour does not want a new leader.
No change there then - does not seem to matter what the electorate wants.
nothings changed then. Same old self serving attitude.
How ill at ease Gordon looked this morning. If this is his new start heaven help us. He looked like a broken man, not one that has been given a reprieve from the, "gallows."
12 more months of this is going to drive us all up the wall. A "government," in name only paralysed for fear of upsetting the backbenchers. Nothing is going to get done - Gordon knows it, we know it. Games up. Pity the British don`t take after the French. A bit of good old rioting on the streets would Gordon gone in double quick time.
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carrelson wrote:
'I know the morals and what passes for culture in this country are really in the drain but I don't particularly want to see my PM all over the front of Hello and Okay.'
I doubt they would give him a second thought. Which top magazine would want an unsuccessful, boring, unpopular politician on their front page if they had any intention of being commercially viable.
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Message 166 Sutara
The Westminster Parliament has made itself irrelevant by doing what the executive always wants. As a consequence it is just a counting-house manned by pip-squeaks. It is not a democracy.
What is needed is an assertion by the people of this country that Parliament is not a chamber of Yes-persons but the representative voice of the people.
This is the issue: the rest of it is just piffle of no consequence. Unless we realise this then the next government will be just a awful as the current one.
On a more general comment I can't help but note that No.10 has got its underlings busy on this board. I thought they had undertaken to put that behaviour to one side. I suppose a self-denying ordinance of twelve hours was sufficient. Back to business as usual, eh chaps?
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All I can say is if Gordon Brown and Labour won't jump then they must be pushed.
Take to the streets.
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190. At 11:16am on 09 Jun 2009, flamepatricia wrote:
Can anybody help re my post above on Glenys Kinnock? What do you think Susan?
Read this, it is confusing to say the least :
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/welsh-politics/welsh-politics-news/2009/06/03/taxpayer-s-alliance-don-t-rate-mep-glenys-kinnock-91466-23775096/
If she was such rubbish as an MEP howcome she is Minister for Europe being parachuted into the Lords by Brown?
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You're not trying to suggest that gordon wouldn't stick her in the lords if she was rubbish? That he actually picks people based on their talents?
Gordon currently thinks it's a one man party - he's fixing the expenses, parliament, and the world economy - all on his own.
Gordon doesn't care whether someone is good or not, it's all about whether they will do what he tells them.
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187# Rtistic
"GB's biggest problem has not been a lack of ability or experience, leadership or dedication. His biggest problem is quite simply how he looks and sounds."
I disagree. It has everything to do with his astoundingly bad judgement and performance, and nothing to do with his lack luster presentation.
When he first took over as prime minister, before his catastrophic economic blunders were exposed to 'zombie' joe public, he was quite popular.
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Having just had the misfortune to hear the ubiquitous Geraldine Smith on 5 live, re-reading her scripted defence of the Supreme Leader, I am slowly recovering from the bouts of nausea that followed.
Another head in the sand, "Gordon and Labour are listening to the people...blah...blah, what the voters want is....blah...blah, best man for the job...blah....blah" speech, made all the more ironic from her inability to let anyone else get a word in edgeways.
No wonder Labour is in such a state.
BTW What planet does #191 Johncarrelson live on? He certainly doesn't visit Earth very often.
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Politics and economics are joined at the hip.
Given that, it is not really surprising that the Prime Minister has survived for the time being.
Some commentators say they are detecting some green shoots in the economy so it may turn out that when the General Election is held, more Labour MP's might actually survive than would be the case right now.
The really big political event coming up has nothing much to do with us English directly, but rather how the Scots will vote in the referendum on full independence in November 2010.
That really could be politically game-changing.
Not the election, effectively by default, of the Tories in England, before that date.
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I think 'the streets' is our only option. A show of people power cannot be ignored.
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#144
Gordon Brown did create the banking crisis, by taking the monitoring, regulation and control from the BoE and giving it to his disastrous FSA (full of his pals on big money/pensions etc.)
Gordon Brown did create the Recession, by allowing and encouraging house prices to spiral out of control after promising to never let this happen.
Gordon Brown did create the system in 2004 that allowed for MP expenses to be exploited,by changing the allowance system with the second home fiddles which he and his entire cabinet have used to steal from the public (as well as most of the opposition MP's).
Perhaps post 144 was really Bob Roberts from the mail comments, expressing total devotion to everything Labour has done and continues doing.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
191. At 11:17am on 09 Jun 2009, johncarrelson wrote:
You all seem to undermine Brown at every turn citing his lies, spin & "un-election" but don't forget your adored Thatcher started a war to get herself re-elected and Major was "un-elected" for two years
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Good one, I still haven't stopped laughing. I looked up "Starting a War 101"
Chapter 01 part 01 was , "take a piece of your sovereign territory and make sure it is invaded by a Foreign Dictatorship, who terrorise and kill your citizens".
Maggie obviously organized for Galtieri (or whoever was pulling the strings) to invade and there we have a war for political purposes.
Muppet.
Let's have a look at Gordon and Tony's "How to start a war for Idiots".
Chapter 01 part 01, Take someone else's country, tell a whole bunch of really big lies about it, get your big brother to tell some really big lies about it and then kill millions of people based around the lie. Then lie some more. And then rape the country of its oil.
I know which events will be looked at in the furture as the "Just" war and the illegal war.
Johncarrelson, what you said in post # 191 is at best naive at worst apologetic for one of the biggest crimes of the last 100 years. And to equate it with the Falklands is just plain stupid, are you stupid? No? Oh!
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RE: 17. johncarrelson
"Why is everything that happens in this country the government's fault? ... What has happened to the concept of personal responsibility?"
Well, a major factor is that for decades, leftist politicians have been telling all manner of people that their crimes or stupidities were all the fault of "society". You can't seriously complain about the results, can you?
"* Terrorists hit us on 7/7 and rather than focus on the animals behind those attacks, we blame UK foreign policy"
Actually, it is mostly leftist (ie New Labour voting) commentators that do that.
"* People on low-incomes go on 5,000 holidays, buy 40,000 cars, spend X,XXX on clothes, DIY, etc, and take out ridiculous mortgages but it's the fault of the government for letting them"
Yes, it is. It is the fault of the government for telling those people that they aren't responsible for their own lives. It is also the fault of the government for constructing a lavishly funded benefit system that makes such things possible with inadequate checks and inadequate deterrence.
"* Reckless bankers go crazy with stupid and risky investments - but it's the government's fault"
Almost no one argues this. The bankers were stupid, greedy, overpaid and incompetent. This is obvious and denied only by the idiot bankers themselves. However, it is also true that the regulatory system that Gordon Brown created utterly failed to restrain them, warn about what they were doing or limit the damage. Brown himself was a complacent cheerleader and apologist for the idiot bankers, mainly because the taxes they were paying were funding his unsustainable public spending boom (see previous point) so he positively did not want to know about the problems. The government aren't exclusively to blame but they certainly share a good part of the responsibility.
"* Baby P is subject to intolerable cruelty and neglect, and again it's the government's fault. What about the actual people who were behind those indescribably despicable acts?"
The only point you make that has real merit. Speaking for myself I don't really blame the government at all here. However since you bring it up, it occurs to me to wonder why we spend so much money on social services departments that deliver so little.
"There is a continuing pattern of wanting abandonment of personal responsibility in British life."
Yes, the Labour party has much to answer for there.
"We need to get it back!"
I think you'll find that most Labour party members and most of their voters would be more likely to drink toxic waste.
"I'm not one for administering blame but if you want to point the finger at anyone over Baby P then it should be at Thatcher/Major and their disregard for British inner-cities which produced the heinous killers of Baby P"
I'm confused. A moment ago it was unfair to blame the current government for something that happened on their watch but now its OK to blame a government that left office more than twelve years ago. Are you sure you didn't mean Disraeli? Don't forget that Baby P's killers grew up in Blair's Britain. I don't actually think that matters but apparently you do.
"Brazil, Russia, Canada, Germany have governments that are all very popular, and their economies have been hammered just as hard,"
Canada's banks are doing just fine, unlike ours, and in Germany, the consensus (rightly or wrongly) is that the "global" crisis was created by British and American banks. If they are right about that then we are correct to blame the UK government.
"When will people get it into their thick skulls that this was a truly GLOBAL recession of an unprecedented nature that hit everyone? Everyone has been hit for six."
You have swallowed the official Gordon Brown cover story. According to Brown's fantasy, this recession just appeared out of a clear blue sky with no warning - like a meteor strike. But that's wrong isn't it? It wasn't an act of nature, it was a direct consequence of the idiotic behaviour of stupid, greedy bankers aided and abetted by a complacent, negligent government that was so busy spending the tax receipts that they didn't dare ask where the money was coming from. The US had a variation of this problem too - but that doesn't make Brown any less guilty.
"Do people really think that Osborne and Cameron would have coped with a global recession any better than GB and AD have?"
Fair question. I have no idea, but it really doesn't matter. Brown is a proven failure. We don't have to wonder about him, we can look at his record, from the gold sell-off, through the 10p tax fiasco and the "we have saved the world" delusions to the exploding national debt, he is a disaster. We have to sack him at the next election. Anything else would repeat the Fred Goodwin lunacy or rewarding total failure.
"I just don't understand why people assume the Tories are such safe guardians of the economy?"
I don't think they do. I think they recognise that Brown is a failure. If his forthcoming defeat is sufficiently crushing, that alone might encourage his successors to do better.
"It makes me cringe and want to cry at the state of Britain that in 30-40 years, our children will go on wikipedia and when they look at lists of PMs and Chancellors they will see Cameron next to the names of Churchill, Atlee, Thatcher, and Osborne next to the names of Brown and Lawson. What a horrible future we have to look forward to!"
Cheer up. They'll also see Brown's name on both lists and ambitious young politician's will say to themselves, "Brown ... I'll never allow myself to be that bad."
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The current administration was elected and through the rules of the system they can carry on governing until the last possible minute.
Like the expenses system it is probably this which requires changing too, and the power must be returned to the electorate in such a way as to instil confidence without unnecessary chaos
This whole affair has shown the blind fury of the electorate which is locked behind procedure and adequately demonstrates that they have exhausted the mandate given.
It has long been said that our elected representatives have lost the "Honourable" title, but I think that this episode demonstrates some renewal is required and efforts must be made to ensure that accountability becomes a prerequisite of the whole system
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I think that all of our current MPs should be psychologically profiled. Prospective MPs should then also be profiled. If they match the profile of the current lot they should then be barred from entering Parliament.
Problem solved!
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If anything, yesterday's meeting of the PLP merely demonstrated how gutless they really are. Labour is facing annihilation at the next General Election, irrespective of how they try to mangle the facts to the contrary, unless they get rid of 'Bottler' Brown. Milliband and Johnson could have done it by quitting the cabinet at the weekend but they bottled out too. Labour deserves everything that is coming to it - and it won't be pretty.
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Still a few 'lay off Gordon' folk about.
Financial crisis are not natural disasters like floods, storms and earthquakes. They are 100% political own goals which cause enormous stress in what was called the 'body politic'. To preside over a 'no more boom and bust', 'celebrate the City's financial innovation' shows the intellectual failure of Mr Brown (and political cowardice). He had access to all the experts and CHOSE who to believe. From where I'm sitting (not in UK) he is regarded as a econonomic half-wit. Saving the world. Give me strength!
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The best thing the labour back benchers can do to prolong their careers is to defect and state that they are listening to the people. If you are in a marginal you will be murdered at the polls as the standing Labour candidate, BUT if you pop off to the Lib Dems or Conservatives, you will be a shoe-in, Gordi LaForge will "Make it so."
They have about two months to do the "jump"..... Come on and do the Jump.
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#187 Rtistic wrote:
"Like or loathe the man, agree with centre-left politics or not, Gordon Brown is the last of a dying breed, like Edward Heath or Michael Foot, a person who entered politics for unselfish reasons and got all the way to the top.".............Please!!!!!
Ah dearie me.....that made me laugh.
Look, Brown is a typical career driven, mercenary Scottish Labour politician. He's never had a proper job, never got his hands dirty, never had to worry about paying the bills etc, etc.
Apparently he has additional unsavoury traits; he's sexest, a bully, arrogant and according to his Lord High First Minister of the Universe (AKA as Lord Mandelson), he's got other faults that suggest, more than suggest, that's he shouldn't be in the job in the first place!
But let him stay on..........it's great comedy!
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Is that it then (nothing has changed)? The most unpopular party/leader/government for a long time who have stood by and watched the weekly thousands being thrown onto the dole queues, have watched the finance sector fall apart, have turned the country into a service centre, have driven out manufacturing, have killed off thousands of small businesses etc..etc..then take part in an expenses scandal with ministers getting up to things the public would have investigated for. Its appears to be a system of fear keeping GB in power and the MPs noses in the troughs for another 6 months. Makes people think what is the point of voting...
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A good chuckle at newlabour apologists can be found at trhe labourlist website which today sports a slightly different view from the standard Gorodn brown is the best man for the job line;
http://www.labourlist.org/brown-legacy-mode-destorying-100-years-history-own-ego
In fact, the poster is suggesting that the good labour members are throwing away a hundred years of history for the sake of one man's ego. Rather a powerful argument.
Similarly if he's the best man for the job then nobody is looking very hard, etc.
It's refreshing to see that there are at least some within the newlabour mvement who realise that Goron Brown is an egomaniac who has no other interest at heart except his own disasterous legacy of debt and failure.
Call an election.
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Musculoskeletal specialists baffled: large numbers of labour MPs still able to sit and stand despite inexplicable disappearance of their spines.
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Well put! If they truly, truly believe their own rhetoric they'd have the decency to stand down and call a Bi election in their own constituencies. They could put themselves forward again and then find out just how much their 'grass roots' working for the Labour party gets them.
My son, the one that wants to put his foot through the tv whenever Brown et al are on spouting their own mantras, actually made the effort to go out and get the proxy vote of a couple of his friends whom, like many of his friends, wouldn't vote 'cos it didn't matter as no one would listen to their vote. Well he's surprised them and made them see their votes did count along with his and got said person elected as MEP. They're keen to vote at next election 'cos they've seen how well the BNP have done and want to put in their own protest vote.... a kind of backfire for son in one respect but at least the friends will now be using their own votes.
Brown.... stay as long as you like. You and your spineless government are now playing right into the hands of the BNP.
I'm no fan of the BNP but am almost believing that anything is better than Brown and Labour.
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johncarrelson (17)
"Do people really think that Osborne and Cameron would have coped with a global recession any better than GB and AD have? I just don't understand why people assume the Tories are such safe guardians of the economy?"
I agree. Which means that whoever ends up running the UK's finances from next year will NOT have my confidence that they can manage the nations books competently. Lets look at the two sparkling options we will be saddled with:
Alistair Darling or George Osborne.
Hmmmmmm...Oh dear..!
Meaker and the Oilslick.
Great choice eh? One incompetent and the other just plain wrong.
Brace yourselves people. We're in for a torrid time!
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Well there is a government. Perhaps the only possible one that Brown could have put together but that is not necessarily a weakness. When you need what you have, you have what you need.
It will not necessarily govern any worse than it has done. It couldn't you say. Well, shocked to the core, it may govern, for what that is worth, a touch smarter.
There is no guarantee that the Euro results will extrapolate a year hence to a general election, when the (different) question will be, how much do you want a Tory government? Not how much do you want to get rid of this lot or Gordon Brown but want a swashbuckling blue-to-the-furthest-benches Tory government.
We have picked up on the hostility to Brown by ministers no longer in office whose palace coup failed and seen it as a dislike of Brown in the electorate. There is such a dislike, but this is confused. The electorate are deeply mistrusting of Nu Labour as a whole since Blair's time. But Brown's survival was predictable and it has happened and he is ideally placed to do some popular backing down in circumstances where there is no more face left to save: post office, Lisbon referendum, ID, or so and so, may start to be seen as cards up his sleeve.
Brown may have a few goodies to bequeath a successor, and the real question is how many takers there are on a decisive Tory win next year. All those takers should honour bound meet in the betting shop this lunchtime.
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Nick.
There is for the Labour Party NOT much safety in NOW knowing that your Great White Scottish Ex-Leader, and Junior Prime Minister in ALL BUT NAME is now a Puppet On a String being held in captivity by Mandi and Co:, and just left to being Rolled - Out by the Nu-Lab Gang on Wednesdays for PMQ's, in the House of Clowns.
What a STATE of Affairs this ALL IS, for we also NOW have so -called Labour Rebels that are looking for a Champion like Guy Fawkes to unite behind, but they don't have any dry matches between them, because they are ALL wet behind the Ear's, while their Leader Brown is JUST DEAF to everything and anything that doe's NOT match with HIS destruction Plans of Britain while trying to appease HIS Un-Elected choice for Leader Lord Mandi whom is by default NOW Britains NEW Prime Minister who owns the Copy-Rights on the "NEW" in Labour.
Can we really afford to go on like this until Westminster crashes down, and the rest of the World have STOPPED laughing themselves into oblivion at how Stupid our System of Government really is right here and now in the U.K., for it is now today well overtime in due for a General Election, if ONLY to re-assert Britain as a World Domocracy, and NOT as we are currently Acting like as a Banana Republic.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The only time you get to influence politics in this country at Westminster, is once every five years or before, if the Prime Minister calls an early election. You have no other rights.
Other elections mean nothing to Westminster politicians. As for democracy, I think you all live in cloud cuckoo land if you really think any politician believes in real democracy. POWER IS ALL THEY UNDERSTAND. It's the drug they are addicted to.
We don't live in a real democracy and we never have. The institutions like the Westminster Parliament, the media and TV, the multi national corporations, the European Commission, all dictate your life. What say do you have in any of them? they are more powerful now than they ever were before.
And you'll have even less once you see Labour's self enhacing constitutional changes. Expect things to get really dirty. You ain't seen nothing yet!
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Blind_Captain - That name suits you, well the first part. Why do you believe all this tripe about Gordon being sexist? He and Blair have had more women in their cabinets than any PMs in history. Can't you see through all the personal politics and hyperbole and see the truth - Caroline Flint was a lightweight out-her-depth MP who thought a great deal of herself when clearly the PM and moreover, the Foreign Office didn't
Why can't people see the recurring pattern of MPs who were either tarnished via expenses (Blears, Purnell, Dennis) or those were useless in their jobs and Gordon rightly got rid of them (Flint, Falconer, Byers) playing personal bitter politics over what's bet for the country
hants_gw - You make a lot of sense I have to admit. My point is basically that any government is damned if they do, damned if they don't. Personal responsibility should be brought back into British life
purpleangelgeorgina - I got that wrong. She was right to get the Falklands back but it did become tiresome when she was still banging on about the "Spirit of the South Atlantic" in 1990. Also, taking the salute at the celebrations and not inviting the royal family was just wrong! With regard to Iraq - yes, it was a monumental disaster (well the post war operational plan that is) but I do still think that Tony B made the right call with the available information he had at the time. As did most of the Conservatives if I may add.
Hindsight is a funny thing - I wonder how historians would have treated Thatcher if our M16 Agents hadn't sabotaged the Argie's Exocet Missiles or if the Americans hadn't gave us military help or if their fighter jets had a few hundred more miles range
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#215 robinJD
Yes your link was most instructive.
Frank Field warned about the looming disaster well over a year ago and predicted the BNP.
Just seems plain talking went out of fashion in Nulabor as far as the leadership was concerned. Wouldn't believe their own Cassandras. Oh well, create a wasteland and call it equal opportunity.
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#191
"You all seem to undermine Brown at every turn citing his lies, spin & "un-election" but don't forget your adored Thatcher started a war to get herself re-elected and Major was "un-elected" for two years"
What a load of B/S!! Thatcher responded to an unprovoked attack on British soverign territory, which probably would never have happened had Denis Healey not cancelled the Royal Navy's CVA-01 aircraft carrier project in February 1966! You can make criticisms of Thatcher's government in the run up to that war but she responded to it firmly at huge political risk to her! If you want to talk about starting wars how about Yo Blair's! little escapade in Iraq with his best mate George? An ill conceived and ill planned invasion which resulted in 3 years of murderous chaos and has damaged this country's international standing for years to come! As for Major, he achieved the highest amount of votes ever at a GE and was PM in his own right, something that Crash Gordon will NEVER accomplish!!
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Many people in England really do seem to have their heads stuck where the political sun proverbially never shines.
I suggest some of you just spend a few minutes checking out some of the posts on Nick Robinsons' colleague Brian Taylor's blog.
Maybe then some of my fellow English people might just {politically} wake up!
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#222 johncarrelson
"He(Brown)and Blair have had more women in their cabinets than any PMs in history..........".
Well now they have gone up in my estimation!!
Very Finbar Saunders.
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hants_gw (207)
Fantastic post.
johncarrelson really needs to have a few truths put his way - many thanks for taking the time. Lets just hope that the facts can burn through the fiction and hit home.
I doubt it but here's hopin'
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So Mr Brown has said he will change, is this the same Mr Brown who promised us a referendum on Europe, the same Mr Brown who was going to hold a General Election back in 2007, The same Mr Brown who said British Jobs for British Workers? It's just all sound bites with no action and nothing will change. His primary policy is for him to hang onto power till he is dragged out of No10 kicking and screaming, only problem for the Labour party is they either can't see this or are too gutless to do anything about it and it's this self serving attitude which will cost them dear.
btw I see Shahid Malik has been cleared of any expenses wrong doing, so this no doubt says MP's are free to claim massage chairs and flat screen TV as long as they support Brown.
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NO MANDATE! NO RIGHT TO GOVERN!
WOULD ANYBODY ASK A ROBBER TO GUARD THEIR PROPERTY AFTER BEING ROBBED?
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Hi John, I just had a quick query on something you said:
"With regard to Iraq - yes, it was a monumental disaster (well the post war operational plan that is) but I do still think that Tony B made the right call with the available information he had at the time. As did most of the Conservatives if I may add."
I was fully in support of the war, on the understanding that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction that he could deploy in uder 45 minutes. I now know that that was not only incorrect information but had been deliberately included in an important document in order to give the impression that Saddam was far more dangerous than he actually was. I always thought that the problem with this was that Tony Blair knew that this wasn't reliable data, and his advisors certainly knew it wasn't - but he took us to war because of it anyway, ignoring all international law?
To put it more simply, it wasn't his call as such - more that he (or others) invented information in order to legitimate a call that had already been made?
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222. johncarrelson wrote:
"Why do you believe all this tripe about Gordon being sexist? He and Blair have had more women in their cabinets than any PMs in history."
=
That's outrageous. Do the Sun know about this?
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#229 alexander-curzon
I should love to know whether you would ask a robber to guard your property if you had not first been robbed?
Also, why so shouty?
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I was musing last night on how Gordon Brown could turn his situation around. Of course he would need to introduce some popular legislation that would endear him to the very people he has managed to alienate. What could he do? One idea is to take advantage of the weak and dependent position of the Banks to:
* oblige them to instantaneously transfer moneys that are paid in by cheque or BACS transfer to the credited account (as they do with cash payments) and not take the outrageous 5-7 days - which seems to have increased as the result of the crisis - to clear the payment;
outlaw the excessive charging for writing letters to notify customers that they are overdrawn, beyond a statutory minimum (say £5).
And to console small businesses and the self-employed:
make the maximum legal terms for the payment of invoices 30 days (which also seems to have dramatically increased recently, as organisations of all kinds lean on their suppliers to provide the credit they are not getting from the Banks).
As far as vote building goes, I would have thought that this would constitute a quick win.
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222. At 12:14pm on 09 Jun 2009, johncarrelson wrote:
purpleangelgeorgina - I got that wrong. She was right to get the Falklands back but it did become tiresome when she was still banging on about the "Spirit of the South Atlantic" in 1990. Also, taking the salute at the celebrations and not inviting the royal family was just wrong! With regard to Iraq - yes, it was a monumental disaster (well the post war operational plan that is) but I do still think that Tony B made the right call with the available information he had at the time. As did most of the Conservatives if I may add.
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Thank you for your honesty.
It will come out at some point that Blair was not acting on the best knowledge available, it will show that Blair knew it was a lie from the start but used the lie to get what he wanted, or rather to allow the Americans to do what they wanted. HOWEVER the conservatives and others who supported the war did not know it was a lie and were acting on best information.
Whilst Blair is swanning around the world, (doing what exactly?) he'd better make the most of it as his time will come. Rather like the DNA from a 1970s murderer or an Auschwitz camp guard they will get you in the end and you will have to live with your actions.
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226. At 12:22pm on 09 Jun 2009, Saintmm wrote:
#222 johncarrelson
"He(Brown)and Blair have had more women in their cabinets than any PMs in history..........".
Well now they have gone up in my estimation!!
Very Finbar Saunders.
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Does that include Prescott as he would bump the average up a bit.....
he's just a sex-machine...................
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It does amuse me that so many people are suggesting the death/collapse/demise of the Labour Party. I would ask them to consider where the Conservative Party has gone post-1997. After the Labour landslide and into 1998, reporters were discussing their terminal decline, that they would die out and we would forever more have a Labour style political party in power.
Were they right? uh no!
In the end the Conservatives have stayed in opposition for a couple of terms, revitalised themselves and their base support and have come back.
Labour will do the same as this is the nature of political parties.
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Peterholly
Just read your post on another thread and it made me snigger so much my coffee came out of my nose.
Many thanks for cheering me up, on a day when i have had to announce another round of redundancies to shore up for the deeper and longer than necessary recession inflicted on us, it is good to know that there are people less fortunate than the poor ladies and gents we are forced to let go.
For those who are not aware, PeterHolly thinks 28% of the population of GB are stupid. In fact, the number would be far higher if he had the sense to realise that a lot of the genuine Tory supporters actually vote for UKIP in the European elections.
Whereas he believes the 15%, dominated by those on benefits, are the intelligent bunch.
Arf.
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flamepatricia 190
I have read a lot about Glenys Kinnock and there is no doubt that she has been a very poor MEP. There are questions about her trips abroad on information seeking trips (which have bumped up her expenses to one of the highest) which have happened to include nice holiday destinations and her work has been criticised as being less than useful.
She was due to retire at the end of the year and I believe on what I have read that in Europe there was a big sigh of relief that they were getting rid of the Kinnocks. Personally I had a little laugh to myself when she was appointed to Minister for Europe. How desperate can you be.
Labour now have a difficulty now because Glenys Kinnock must resign immediately as an MEP if she is to become Minister for Europe and take up a seat in the Lords. As Glenys has to remain as an MEP until July 13th because otherwsie she will lose some of her pension rights it leaves us without a Minister for Europe until this date. This is not allowed under the rules for Europe I believe so out of desperation the Labour Party has been left with a bit of a headache.
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@193..
"The smoking ban is about the only thing that ZanuLabour have got right, as it means I can now relax in the pub with friends, and not go home smelling like a used ashtray."
Perhaps..but the point is that,I believe, about 7 pubs per day are going out of business..err..caused by..
1.The recession
2.The smoking ban
Enjoy your very quiet drink whilst you can.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The last time we, the citizens of the United Kingdom, by our actions changed the mind of a senior establishment figure was when the Queen finally came back to London from Balmoral to recognise Princess Diana's death and the outpouring of grief felt by us all.
Maybe it's time to do something along the same lines to make Gordon Brown understand that we do not want him as our Prime Minister and that we want a General Election now.
Maybe we should go and stand en masse in front of Buckingham Palace holding placards or some other symbol asking Her Majesty to dissolve Parliament NOW.
....because right now we are helpless. Nobody is listening to us. We need somebody like our Queen to interfere on our behalf.
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The sad fact is that the useless bunch of Labour MPs we have these days couldn't organise a coup in a brewery.
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232 ColDigby
I LIKE THE caps key.NuLABOUR have done the robbery.WE WILL ALL GET THE
BILL.
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If the BNP (God forbids) were in power the like of Sir Alan Sugar, Lady Kinnock and others, would vote for them and support them in order to enrich themselves further (how rich were the Kinnocks when they left the UK to join the EU gravy train in Bruxelles?) either financially or for power. This is what Labour is all about.
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johncarrelson (222)
For crying out loud - stop living in the past. I study history and I love history. I dislike it when someone uses it as a method of scoring cheap, petty and hollow points. This political pigsty we are currently witnessing is here and now and breaches all colours.
RIGHT NOW: This is the Labour party being decimated by sleaze, corruption, deceit and contempt for the electorate. Blair, Brown et al are as complicit as could be. Labour politicians have been in charge of this great nation for 12 years and they have right royally cocked it up.
THERE IS NO DENYING THIS OR COVERING IT UP johncarrelson - IT HAS BECOME A TOTAL SHAMBLES...!
There is also no denying that the Tories had their Waterloo in terms of sleaze and corruption which ended 12 years ago when Labour took over.
Exactly how long does a Government need to make radical positive change to a nation? I'll tell you - between 3-5 years. As soon as that second election has been won deterioration commences - the rate of which simply depends on the margin of victory.
I'm 39 and quite frankly I'm disgusted with the lot of them. For many, many years we have been fed shoddy politics by dishonorable cheats, thieves and liars. The radical shake-up we are promised will NEVER go far enough for my liking - we will still end up with a bad set of choices. Red, blue, yellow....How can it matter when you know they'll become just like their predecessors.
There is no honour in politics.
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Here's where I'm coming from. As hard as it is to believe, I really am not a partizan. I'm probably more conservative if anything. (Low Taxes, Tough on Crime, Responsible immigration, smaller public sector, no PC culture) however the thought of Cameron and Osborne running this country terrifies me.
Whatever you have to say about Labour and their failures since 1997, one has to concede that they have done a lot of good for the country and they do have some pretty talented people. Brown, Johnson, Miliband x 2, Straw, Harman, Mandelson are all talented people who I truly believe are in politics for people like you and me, and to make Britain a better, fairer, and stronger country.
I don't feel that way when I look at the Tories. Save Liam Fox and perhaps William Hague, they are all unknowns and I believe lightweights.
Cameron - No substance, just winning and moaning. It's disgraceful the contempt with which he shows PMQs. His one contribution to British life was Black Wednesday. Both Bush and Obama thought he was a lightweight and his indecision with regard to the economy in 2008 was just staggering. Also, in these troubled times internationally (Iran, Middle-East, North Korea) do you really feel safe with him at the helm. I worry that he will be in charge of our armed forces.
Osborne - 38yrs old with little to no experience of ever having worked in the real world or having run anything. The hypocrisy of his jeering across the benches at Labour over the cash-for-honours then his own little rendez-vous with Deripaska shows you all you have to know about him. Don't forget as well that the pro-European Ken Clarke pulls all his strings anyway
Hague - It rings pretty hollow when you try to criticize the banks and you've been taking 30k a after-dinner speech from them. Although, I will concede he is a pretty talented guy
Basically people, in these serious times I want serious substantive people not unproven lightweights.
It's almost ironic that in their desperation to beat Blair they chose a Blair Mark 2 in Cameron, when what is needed now is decent serious substantive well-grounded people like David Davis or Michael Howard.
If David Davis was leader of the Cons then I probably would back them. He is a true parliamentarian in every sense
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So the parliamentary authority has cleared Mr Malik... before he is given a ministerial post do you think nick could ask him the following question.... "what part of the claim for a £2000 flat screen television is relevant to the following statement from the green book..... "Claims must only be made for expenditure that it was necessary for a Member to incur to ensure that he or she could properly perform his or her parliamentary duties.".........
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#191 johncarrelson
Do tell the man on the tyne bridge last year that this is not a broken
country and broken society, He was cleared of all charges and the forman of the jury wanted to make a statement in open court but was denied by the judge, wonder why ?
You tell that to the hundered's of thousand of children, grandparents and fathers that have been forcibly denied access by the state. Also tell those that have been forcible adopted by the state.
I ask you to imagine what it would be like to be told you can no longer see your own children, for no more of a fact than you are a father.
The 1989 children act should have sorted this out (seminal legistlation by Lady T) but undermined by Zanu-labour
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121 demonvawr
So we don't get it, perhaps its you my friend that doesn't get it,
#like Tony Benn. He put his finger right on the spot
Tony benn was one of the most hated men by the Tories when he was a minister in a government that was voted out, suddenly because in his bitterness he speaks against labour he's become the luvie of the Tories who hang on his every word as they do on Frank Field another ex minister with a chip on his shoulder.
#it's the broken promise of a Lisbon Treaty referendum;
There never was a promise on the Lisbon treaty, it was not needed according to Tories Baker and Gummer.
#the lies that led us into the Iraq war;
The lies as you call them was the misinformation given to the government by MI5 6 there was a free vote the Tories were given the same information as labour,and were more Gung Ho! about going to war than the labour party.
#12 years of spin,
Of course we never had or still don't have any spin from the Tories.
#It's the abject failure of our education system;
There amore univerity students now than ever there was with more passes than ever before, at all levels of education children are doing better than ever before and there doing it in better schools equipped with better equipment than ever before.
#the parlous state of the NHS with more managers than beds;
The NHS has never been anything like as good as it is now, with more nurses doctors and staff at all levels , there are more hospitals than under the tories which are a hundred per cent better equipped than ever they were. Waiting times have been reduced to a third of that under the Tories, cancer and heart problems have been greatly reduced.
#the Gurkhas;
The Ghurkhas have recieved far better treatment since labour came to power their wages were doubled to start with plus many other concessions for these brave men who had been ignored by the Tories until bandwagon time with Joanna Lumly, the Ghurkas would have got exactly what they did get within a few months as the situation was under review, Joanna's actions persuaded GB to bring the matter forward I am pleased to say, but no credit to the Tories even if they did jump in on the photoshoot Joanna thanked the right Person Gordon Brown.
#the cynical breaches of the unwritten contract of support for our soldiers, not only with sub-standard equipment but in their treatment when wounded.
The support for our troops was the best that was available at that time the equipment that was available was the equipment that had been supplied under eighteen years of Tory rule,As the war progressed it was found to be unsuitable in this type of terrain and has gradually being replaced, you cant replace all the forces equipment overnight as many of the military have accepted, the troops have again recieved in the battle areas the same treatment that they had recieved in previous encounters, and were quickly brought back to hospitals back home the fact that there were not enough military hospitals I think was also down to the previous administration and perhaps the military themselves.
For God's sake, just get out and take your treachery, spin and corruption with you, before you totally destroy this country!
I don't think that your opinions are based on what God thinks, if God thought like you there would be no Labour party,I think your ridiculious claims and topped by you little rant at the end, just shows that you like many Tories are not interested in facts .you just want to spout your hatred and ill thought out bile, and in your case at this moment in time a hissy fit because labour didn't fall into your plan.
#hoping we'll forget why only 15% of those who voted could bring themselves to support them,
Considering that you and your lot think they have the answer,that we've yet to see they didn't do to well either, did they, hardly a endorsement.
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#238 Susan
So much for new politics, Glenys Kinnock now has to weigh up how best to work the system to extract the maximum benefit for herself as a retiring MEP before getting more taxpayers money as an apponted MP.
It is a real slap in the face for all those back bench MP's who are denied progression because of appointment of cronies to protect Brown.
I veer between feeling sorry for Brown visibly crumbling [ pity is a basic human instict] and being reviled by his continuing control freakery and subversion. Brown appears happy to dish it out but cannot cope with taking the flak.
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Post 144. Bob Roberts?
aka the zen enthusiast? Bob Roberts is a little known American film about politics.
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RE 222. johncarrelson
"hants_gw - You make a lot of sense I have to admit. My point is basically that any government is damned if they do, damned if they don't. Personal responsibility should be brought back into British life"
Thank you. I agree with your last point. Unfortunately too many people have too much to lose, and in that I would include both the Daily Mail cliché "benefit scroungers" and parasites like James Crosby and Fred Goodwin. As far as I can tell there is no political party that has anything useful to say about both of those things as a pair. I criticise Brown and his government either because they could do something, but don't (e.g. overpaid fat cat bankers) or because the things they do cause real damage (e.g. fiddling the "official" inflation figures). That doesn't mean I think Cameron is guaranteed to solve all our problems.
RE: 227. RagJunkie69
"hants_gw (207)
Fantastic post. "
Thank you. I'm going to sign off now before it goes to my head!
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This is not in the interests of the country. The government is now a collection of cowards , fearful for their own positions and even more so of the whips and paying lip service to a redundant nominal prime minister. It is pathetic and has not an ounce of respect for the democracy of this country and for the electorate. This is very much the mother of all governments.
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I am not sure who JohnCarrelson is but I suspect he is an apparachik of some description or one of Brown's bully boys who reduced an already diminished backbench opposition to snivelling wrecks. The only Labour MPs with any backbone are the cabinet ministers who resigned, Kate Hoey, Frank Field and Tom Harris. At least they have the decency to admit that the people need to decide this issue and not a PM whose sanity is increasingly in doubt.
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241. At 12:52pm on 09 Jun 2009, stablescotland wrote:
Oh dear, oh dear. How very sad. Let me explain. We have a constitution which for what it is worth starts with the-head-of-state-in-Parliament. When by law or earlier the government has to submit to a general election, the Queen dissolves parliament. This is where you come in. You vote. With me so far? Then when someone is democratically able to form a government the Queen invites them to do so. And they make more or less of a pig's ear of it. Till the next time. You have to thank your lucky stars - don't bother with the history of it, it would confuse you - that in your country there is a next time.
You don't have to stand around with placards or put flowers in the street or anything like that. Do that if it makes you feel good, and in some very dodgy regimes that's sometimes all you can do, always assuming it doesn't get you beaten up and thrown in jail. But you are lucky, there is Universal Suffrage which means your vote is counted and you get four years or so of someone's bright ideas, from which Heaven preserve us, and from which you can derive a little tiny portion of the appropriate praise or blame..
The election will come soon enough.
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123 defender of parliament,
#Kate Silverton, If the culture secretary was to tell you the PM's weaknesses then the media would pounce on them, I take it you dislike the PM, don't start media bias reporting, it seems the BBC want the conservatives in, no support at all from the media, can we just have the news rather than your views on it!!!
I can not for the life of me understand why Kate Silverton was employed as a news reader by the BBC. She was a regular guest on the Wright Stuff and clearly expressed her biased views against Labour that would have made Cameron squirm with delight. On top of that which I found dispicable, in a discussion about mink and their bad treatment, she was asked if she would be prepared to see 68 mink killed to provide a mink coat for her, she replied "certainly" and with a big smile said "I would I'd love a Mink coat." Just about weighs her up don't you think?
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236. enigmajx
You would have been right on that statement were it not that the entire Labour movement went for Broke on New Labour, and won.
However what else can they do to rebrand themselves?
They have tried option A with Harold Wilson and Jim Callaghan, then B by pandering to the Unions with Foot and Kinnock, C was there winner with Blair when they emulated the Tories. They are out of options, their core vote has vaporised, and the socialists have looked elsewhere as have the unions. It is only the public sector "Jobs for the Boys" brigade that are keeping the party afloat, even the immigrant vote is departing, as the Golden Goose isn't laying at present.
In any case whatever the packaging says on the Labour party the net result is always the same, the country laying in ruins.
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In the country wide EU elections The David Cameron Conservative Party managed just 27.7% of the vote. In reality, considering the present state of the Labour Party, this is a very poor showing and, indcates that the next election is open.
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# 253 SJDG43
Yes, what keeps swirling around in my head is, how have we allowed it to get to this?. And how can such a small group of ruthless, self-serving individuals wreak such havoc on the nation with impunity?
The economy is going to hell in a handcart; immigration is out of control; thousands of laws are being passed to invade, control and criminalise every corner of our lives, most of which come from a bunch of unelected bureaucrats in Brussels; our public services are a shambles; we've got more unelected and unaccountable quangos than you can shake a stick at (1,167 at the last count), complete with an unelected Prime Minister; MPs rob us blind; society is creaking at the seams and, all the while, one idiot politician after another comes on the radio or the TV to tell us that the great Labour project is unfinished, and we need them so badly to get us out of the hell-hole that they themselves have spent 12 years making that a General Election now would cause chaos. How stupid of us to think otherwise.
What the hell planet do these dolts live on?
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Well
Mandy has got Brown dancing to his tune now.
Does anyone know who Mandy has got lined up to be the next speaker?
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#170
Brilliant post, answer, I would say about 11 more months, with any luck.
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johnCarrelson 191
Sorry John I do not read newspapers so that puts your first argument to bed. I only read factual articles (not in newspapers) on what is actually going on.
Your definitely a man of contradictions because it was you yourself that said the public was fickle by giving celebrities a second chance but not politicians in particular G. Brown. It was you who complained about society. If you seriously believe that Britain is a fairer and happier society under Brown I would say you are living somewhere other than the rest of us.
Britain is now not only bankrupt and printing money will not cure the problem it will just add to the debt, we are a more divided and violent society than we have ever been.
We have the problem of uncontrolled immigration which has for the first time allowed the BNP to gain credibility on the Labour Governments watch. The Government debt has been racked up exclusively under Labours spend, spend, spend policies, who inherited a very good economy from the outgoing Conservative Government. The Government debt is so bad generations to come will be paying for it and we have very little improvement in services to show for the money spent. We have people coming out of work now because of Labours lack of investment in anything except war. We have the Iraq war which in my opinion was illegal and has cost so much in lives and money. Along with this we have knife crime and organised crime increasing all the time. We have a public sector which is unsustainable. I could go on and on all under Labour, thats before I get to the loss of freedoms for the individual, the scandals such as Mcbride and Damian Green. If you do not believe the Government is to blame for baby P by having such poor services at least they should have made the punishment fit the crime. Under Labour it is the criminal who is protected not the innocent.
If I hear that old chestnut about Thatcher any more times I think I will die of boredom. Thatcher had to deal with an economy in meltdown from the last Labour Government of the 70s it was only really recovering when Major left office in 1997. If Labour had continued with these policies instead of spending beyond its means and if they had put the money into investing in business, our inner cities and getting our people back to work instead of buying votes by extending the public sector and benefits we would not be in this position now. If Brown had not let the City run riot with virtually no regulation except the dreadful FSA and taken away the powers of the BOE, we would not be seeing the collapse of banks as we are now.
How bad does it have to be before you see the light?
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Grandy,
You and I have fundamental differences in politics, I can accept that. But do not belittle your argument by suggesting that the reason people voted Tory is because they are not interested in facts. Claiming that 28% of people are wrong because they "are not interested in facts", but that the 15% who vote labour are correct and in full posession of the facts is very very thin.
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#255 solpugid
"Oh dear, oh dear. How very sad. Let me explain. We have a constitution which for what it is worth starts with the-head-of-state-in-Parliament".
Oh dear, oh dear. How very sad. Let me explain. WE DO NOT HAVE A CONSTITUTION.
If we had one then maybe we wouldn't have inherited Brown in the first place.
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Look over there!!
Where?
Its Gordon stoically surfing the tsunami of public hate.
What a guy.
With an evil eye,
Bullying back benchers into hailing him as Brown the Great.
Get him out!
We all shout!
But arrogance and ignorance have stood him in good stead.
Gordo Go!
He shouts NO!
Gordo the Brown is Prime Minister of the living Dead.
What the hell!
Whats that smell!
Its the labour party drowning in their own political waste.
Its time for change!
To rearrange!
Let Davey save the nation with due diligence and haste.
The time is Now!
End Browns cash cow!
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256
Sorry grandy, don't want to seem like I'm having a go.
Would you be willing to see, say, 100 chickens killed a year to keep you well fed (assuming you aren't a veggie)?
Do you wear leather shoes?
Although I personally find the idea of fur distasteful, I dare say it is no more so to me than eating meat is to a vegetarian.
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258
The Tories are suffering from the expenses scandal just as much as NuLab (however much Harriet Harmann would have you believe otherwise "Our supporters are more principled than Tory supporters etc. etc. etc.). Furthermore, many of the UKIP votes would go to the Tories in a general election.
Sorry to burst your little bubble.
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It was never really going to be the case that Labour would fight for a new leader. It's a poison chalice position now. Changing leader would (this time) force a General Election - which Labour would lose - and no-one in Labour would want to be in that position as leader. Waiting till next years enforced election is no better - Labour is still likely to lose - so no-one would to be in that position. So Gordon is going to stay there.
The only chance for Labour is if Brown's new cabinet has some significant effect - not just policy announcements, but legislation change, etc. The problem is - they've only got 11 months to do it in, and there's a whole summer vacation taking 2 months+ out of that. Whether or not you think Brown can take initiative in substantive matters that people actually care about (I don't think he can), the fact remains that it's too short a time to make a difference.
The MOST interesting questions right now are:
1: Will there be substantive constitutional change as Brown has now announced twice.
2: What further fall-out from the expenses row is there.
3: Will the Conservatives be able to take enough advantage of this, without the LIberals doing so as well, to avoid a hung parliament. Don't forget - it's all the politicians we hate at the moment, not just Labour.
Nice blog Nick - keep it up!
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So in the bubble of Westminster, Gordon Brown is carrying on regardless of what the public think and Malik is given his job back after some questionable expense claims to say the least.
Meanwhile in the real world 1,660 jobs are to be lost after Lloyds have decided to close all 164 branches of Cheltenham & Gloucester.
It's a pitty that those who don't deserve to get the boot are shown the door whilst those that do, don't.
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#249 grandantidote.
Yes, the people are quite ungrateful considering how many positive things have been achieved. What is it with people that they just don't get it? Wouldn't paradise on earth be easier to attain if the people didn't just have a nasty habit of biting the hand that feeds it!
Hospitals. I've moved to France. I can afford too. Most folk can't.
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Not surprised with the result of last night's meeting. Brown is the only big hitter in the Labour ranks, apart from Mandy who has reached the peak of available powers. Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, Labour MPs are not daft and they know which side their bread is buttered. They know another unelected PM would not be tolerated and the ousting of Brown will only result in them losing their seats sooner. It suits Labour to give Brown another year, things possibly can't get any worse, and it's possible his insane spending could actually drag us out of recession, although any recovery would be false in my opinion. Obviously the effect the PLP's choice has on democracy is terrible, but this is clearly no longer a concern when power and pay is the order of the day.
Disappointed with the Tories in all this, they have lacked teeth throughout, and appear happy to allow Liebour to regroup and make the best of a bit situation. I hope their lack of killer instinct will not come back to haunt them next year.
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HI nick were here again after a short absence spelling mistakes or other wise ,So it would appear its buisness as usual,Plasma screens and massarge parlors are in order then are they?WELL WELL WELL did you notice the sickly grins on their faces as they filed in to meet there master Its enought to make Winston chirchill turn over in his grave after all they put up the two finger signs to the public as they went in what a spineless bunch? yes sir no sir ,Twelve years and all they come up with lessons will be learnt.How many more years must pass befor they are satisfied they are doing a good job for the country rather than running it further into the ground,?Introducing new policies on packaging on goods now ,If thats important? Well mr cameron would be best advised to leave them to it as its going to take more than houdini to excape from this mess the countrys is in. Secondly they claim the tories have not put forward any policies of there own to show how they would get out of the current problems why should they only to have them hijack by so called nulabour to there own ends.
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Shahid Malik has returned to government after he was found not to have breached ministerial rules over a rental agreement in his constituency.
BBC HEADLINE
It's a farce isn't it ..... i expect they will all be back shortly after all they haven't done anything wrong ... Have they
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I can't think that anyone should be celebrating over this.
Not Labour because what they have had to admit is that they have a third rate PM but there is no one better. So what does that say about the Labour party?
The Tories because they see the country going further downhill and a bigger mess to clean up after Brown's policies have all failed.
The people because they know there is no one remotely interested in doing anything for them because Labour are too busy playing power games so they stay in as long as possible.
Words are cheap and that is all we will get from Brown and Co for the rest of his term.
The real misery is still to come.
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It is clear from the European election results, taken in total, that a very substantial number of the electorate harbour reservations, to put it mildly, about the EU. Despite this, we are still denied the promised referendum by Brown on the Lisbon treaty, and once Ireland reverse their "NO" vote in October, which smart money says they will, it will come in to effect in January. I read today that the EU commission are desperate to prevent a general election in the UK because a Tory win would result in a referendum if the treaty has not come into force. The quote from one EU diplomat was, "This must not happen." That just about sums up the attitude towards democracy in both the UK and the EU. However did it get to this? And the career politicians wonder why people are turning to the extremist fringes.
This constant errosion of peoples right to a say in their governance will simply play even more into the hands of extremists. Do our politicians learn nothing from history? I fear that this will not end well. This is no longer about Brown's political career, or the well-being of the Labour party. It is now about salvaging some shred of the democracy for which generations of Britons have shed blood. Surely there are at least some labour MPs who can understand this and have the moral fortitude to do what is right for the nation? If not, then they deserve everything they eventually get at the general election. I never thought I would feel ashamed to be British.
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We have a crazy situation with a despised Prime Minister nominally in charge of a Government which has lost all moral authority to govern - nay, it has lost all authority to govern period! There is a solution and it lies in the hands of the people. England needs its own Orange Revolution - if enough people have the courage to mass lobby Parliament for a General Election, it might come to pass......
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216. At 11:52am on 09 Jun 2009, Tenjlass wrote:
"Well put! If they truly, truly believe their own rhetoric they'd have the decency to stand down and call a Bi election in their own constituencies. They could put themselves forward again and then find out just how much their 'grass roots' working for the Labour party gets them."
Now I really am not 100% clear on this, but I understand that perhaps if they resign and cause a by-election, that they forfeit their golden handshake for leaving the House and returning to civvy street.
But even if that isn't true, the Labour bosses would severely not approve of bi-elections - that they would almost certainly lose - at this point in time. So my guess is that some MPs have been pressuriesed to stay on.
Again, another 11 months in a job is probably perceived by most of them as more advantageous than a shorter period.
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249. At 1:01pm on 09 Jun 2009, grandantidote wrote:
121 demonvawr
#the lies that led us into the Iraq war;
The lies as you call them was the misinformation given to the government by MI5 6 there was a free vote the Tories were given the same information as labour,and were more Gung Ho! about going to war than the labour party.
RUBBISH - grandantidote and you know it.
#12 years of spin,
Of course we never had or still don't have any spin from the Tories.
Grand, it was never anywhere near the current levels. Labour announcements wizz passed every day, yet that is all they ever do, and Gordon has so few phrases in his vocabulary I'm beginning to think theres a string hanging out of his back.
#It's the abject failure of our education system;
There amore univerity students now than ever there was with more passes than ever before, at all levels of education children are doing better than ever before and there doing it in better schools equipped with better equipment than ever before.
That Grand, really gives you away. The idea that more passes actually means anything is exactly the kind of labour spin we've had to put up with for the last 12 years. What is the point of an exam if all the children get an 'A'? Actually, I know what the point is - its so labour can say look they used to all 'b's and 'c's and now they all get 'a's so everyone must be brighter. Utter tosh.
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Gordon Brown's role, over the last 12 years, has been the 'Chief Architect of Failure'.
Gordon opposed Tony Blair's reforms and spent his days battling Tony Blair for the crown. (Rather than responsibly managing the economy and our financial system - ooops).
In doing so, Gordon ensured that Labour's delivery record is laughable, compared to the vast amount of tax he has taken from us. (Not forgetting the mind blowing level of debt he has also saddled us with).
Gordon deposed a popular Prime Minister and filled the gap himself (with an unpopular Prime Minister).
Gordon has smeared and bullied all rivals into obscurity. Hence Labour has no other option to turn to now.
Gordon continually lies to the British Public and we hate him.
Labour has decided to stick with the architect of it's failure. Good. After the last 12 years I never want to see Labour in government again. Gordon is the best man to ensure the final destruction of the Labour Party once and for all.
As far as I am concerned, the PLP has made the right choice in backing Gordon to lead them into the end game. Thank you.
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For those keen on Downing Street e-petitions and the one calling for the PM to resign, why not check out the one calling for an immediate general election? From memory it is called Go to the Country Now
If the BBC show it then the link is http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/GoToCountryNow/
Let the country decide if Mr Brown is the man to lead us, then the Labour party can dispose of him if unsuccessful or back him if he wins!
Pretty simple in my opinion.
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271
I have actually been thinking the same thing recently.
Think back to when Blair was leader of the opposition. Remember the torrid time he gave Major every Wednesday afternoon?
Cameron does not seem to have the killer instinct. I know he wanted to end Punch and Judy politics, and his side of the house is a lot better mannered these days. But if the PM will simply refuse to answer any questions, on policy or otherwise, I'm very much afraid he is going to have to revert to the old style of attack.
It would help if the speaker would actually make Brown answer a question though. Typical session:
DC "Why is this happening"
GB: Choose from "Look at all the money we spent", "You would do nothing", "If you were in power it would be even worse", "12 years ago the Tories did this", "We are helping people (notice, never any actual examples)", "we are the right party/ I am the right man for the job"
He does not even attempt to answer any questions anymore, he doesn't have good anwers and he knows he will not be made to give bad ones.
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225. At 12:21pm on 09 Jun 2009, JohnConstable wrote:
"I suggest some of you just spend a few minutes checking out some of the posts on Nick Robinsons' colleague Brian Taylor's blog."
You are joking, of course!
It comes across an 'old pals club' that bangs on about the pros and cons of Scottish Nationalism and usually resolutely avoids any other subject, even when it effects them (e.g. swine flu).
Also, the moderators there remove your posts but don't email you to tell you why.
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264. At 1:26pm on 09 Jun 2009, Saintmm wrote:
#255 solpugid
Yes, I thought somebody might raise this, but it isn't an objection to what I say. Everybody knows that we don't have a constitution in the form of a documented legal code. Obviously you do too but then I wonder why you didn't actually say so. But the distinction is too well-known to make a point of, not in this context.
But without elaborating, actually we do have a constitution that can be be inferred from the institutions of the state and the mechanisms of government. Chap called Bagehot wrote a book about it. Well he couldn't have written a book about it if it wasn't there now could he? Wikipedia for you my friend. Homework!
I think that sarcasm got my post a bit further than it got yours. But there you are.
Toodle pip!
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282
"Also, the moderators there remove your posts but don't email you to tell you why"
Its because you aare not banging on about the pros and cons of Scottish Nationalism ;)
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Mitcham
"The sad fact is that the useless bunch of Labour MPs we have these days couldn't organise a coup in a brewery."
Or a piss-up in a banana republic....?
AlexC
"I LIKE THE caps key"
Never would have guessed...
But today's winner of the FlamePat Award for the Most Ridiculous Post by a Tory is:
Invaderzim for this:
"Let Davey save the nation with due diligence and haste."
ha, ha, ha
Keep 'em coming Tory folk
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274. At 1:47pm on 09 Jun 2009, virtualsilverlady wrote:
"I can't think that anyone should be celebrating over this.
Not Labour because what they have had to admit is that they have a third rate PM but there is no one better. So what does that say about the Labour party?"
They very probably DO have people who would do better, but the issue here is one of timing and whether such a person and an adequate number of supporters are prepared to raise their heads above the parapets and risk the consequences.
If anything it's more a question of 'bottle' than ability.
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The Labour Party allowed itself to get into a position whereby a second change of leadership would bring demands for an immediate general election or at worst one in the autumn. So it considered whether to be wiped out or take a chance on losing but living to fight another day....
The Tory Party has used the expenses scandal, quite shamelessly, to try to engineer putsch, without considering that it has no hope of appearing upright and moral after its own Party's behaviour in that regard......and one wonders how committed they would actually be to all this constitutional 'reform' that they are mouthing off about currently, if they obtained a working majority after a general election.....?
The LibDems DO have the right to call for an election after being expenses-wise honest and they DO have a right to call for a constitutional settlement as they have campaigned for one for years. It is an ongoing national scandal that figures >20% of a national vote lead consistently to less than 10% of available seats at Westminster.........and those who have consistently voted for them would undoubtedly agree.......
We have still yet to hear tickety boo from George Osborne about how he would have bettered the PM's performances concerning the credit crunch, a clear distinction from the ministrations of Mr Vincent Cable over the past 5 years. One does ask the question as to why the Tories are so desperate for an election NOW? Could it be that history will view Mr Brown's actions in a reasonably favourable light? It doesn't say much for the Tories if they don't think their policies will stand up to comparison with Mr Brown's 'discredited Govt', does it?
Now is Mr Brown responsible for the lending policies of EUROPEAN BANKS? I do not think so. So trading conditions in the EU can hardly be blamed on Mr Brown, can they? Nor is he responsible for the policies of the German Govt and the effects this may have, directly or indirectly, on Eurozone economies, although he will be able to put his oar in at EU summits about it......so no blaming him for impending crises in Ireland, Spain or the Baltic states please, Mr Ambrose-Pritchard.......Mr Brown opposed Euro entry and you should judge him on that, not on what is happening inside that currency zone if you please........unless you want all of us to blame YOU for the re-emergence of the hard right in politics...
Can Mr Brown control the world's spot price for oil, which was ratcheted up in 2008 to break certain nations, dropped to the floor to weaken certain producer nations in early 2009 and is now rising again? No he can't. And nor could William Hague, unless his McKinsey spying network has video footage of all the Arabian Sheikhs having dodgy sex sessions with those euphemistically described as 'not their wives'......so he's not to blame for the effects that has on UK business costs, is he? IS HE??
Can Mr Brown order the White House around concerning its Middle East policy? In your dreams he can......so whatever you might have thought of the Bush-Cheney actions, he was powerless to stop them.....and he won't have a hell of a lot more hard power with the Clinton-Obama thoughts either......so it might behove all the Tories ranting about that to realise how little influence Britain alone now has in that arena. It has some, to be sure, but the world won't change by Mr Brown barking orders down an international telephone line........although an influential role in brokering cooperative actions is certainly within a UK PM's ambit still.......
Can Mr Brown stop global climate norms from bringing floods, droughts, famines or snowfalls to the world's 'disaster zones'? No he can't. And nor will Mr Cameron be able to either. He can start to try and forge a global concensus that eating three meals a day is usually a good idea, from which may emerge a belief that feeding people is the first priority of any nation.......and that a more globally cooperative means of sharing surpluses and poor years due to normal climatic variations may be a good idea........
What can, in fact, Mr Brown control or strongly influence?
1. Taxation POLICY.
2. Spending POLICY.
3. International trade POLICY.
4. Choice of membership of international clubs, organisations and initiatives.
5. How Britain is governed, including regulatory environments for various industries either nationally or as part of an EU-wide Directive.
Now if we could move any preparation for a General Election onto an adult examination of Mr Brown's performance in those areas over the past 3 years, an examination of how the Tories might do things differently and what areas the LibDems would hold as necessary to be part of any power-sharing arrangement in the event of a hung Parliament, assuming that, at least at the next election, it is unlikely that they will obtain a working majority, then politics might start resembling politics again.
And if that means that glorified, overgrown undergraduate Union hacks start to fear that they have been rumbled in the hothouse of UK national politics, then nothing would give me greater pleasure than to watch them squirm as the nation becomes ever more progressively aware of that.
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4. At 11:36pm on 08 Jun 2009, yellowbelly1959 wrote:
It's great soap opera, isn't it?
You could almost think that Labour don't want to win the next election.
... or, along with too many in the bubble, give a rats about much beyond what works for them, and to heck with the interests of its population.
The safety of this person is not something that interests me as much as my family's future.
Sadly, the two are not mutually exclusive.
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ofcourse he is safe he wont call a general election and he has quashed any rebelion within the party, but it is only the calm before the storm.
the stalking horse is in the stable awaiting orders.
sadly if they unseat mr brown all they will do is hasten the death of neu labour and all the tory standards it stood for.
party politics what a joke.
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Sutara @ 286:
Probably true. If Alan Johnson were to risk challenging for the leadership, was successful and then went down to a humiliating defeat at The next General Election his career would be over. The same goes for any of the main contenders. Best to wait until after The Election at which time Gordon Brown would be a spent force and he could hope to step in and rebuild the Party's fortunes.
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#64
Thank you jolo. Was wondering what Mandelson was getting out of this, but we can add another title to icewombat's list - VPM (Vicarious Prime Minister).
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Sutara @ 282
Well, it was good of you to take a look at Brian Taylor's blog and helpfully you also pointed out why I wanted English people to take a look.
That is, the native Scots, at least those who post on Taylor's blog, appear to be transfixed by discussing the relative merits of the SNP.
Other parties barely get a look-in.
Which could be interpreted as indicating that the so-called Union is really in deep trouble.
That is the real political story on this island and it will not go away despite being ignored by the three mainstream parties and to a lesser extent, the media.
One day we English will literally wake up and find that the Scots have simply gone.
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I have been reading the various comments above and many of them claim to speak for public opinion, especially on the popularity of our present Government and PM.
There was a chance for us all to make our views felt at the recent county council and European elections. Unfortunately only a small percentage of us chose to do so. Voter apathy is likely to create problems for this country.
Another issue, likely create problems, is the failure of some MPs to connect with and represent their electorate.
For instance, look carefully at where the BNP has been successful in the recent European elections. Consider how those constituencies are represented in parliament. Then consider whether voter apathy or anger could allow the BNP more success in politics in the future.
These issues, I suggest, have more far reaching implications, for ourselves and future generations, than whether we personally like or dislike our current PM and his Government.
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rjaggar 287 - WOW!! If Carlsberg wrote Nick Robinson's Newslog posts.........
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Reading some of the posts on here today, I get a sense that people think that they can in some way influence "by democratic process" the actions of their MPs, and the parties they form themselves into in Parliament, after an election has happened.
Generally speaking we can't. We choose to vote, or not vote, for who we want to be MP and then that's it.
As long as they don't do anything illegal, we have little influence over them, including who they choose as Leader or Prime Minister - especially if it changes during the term of a government.
It is, perhaps, the X-Factor, Dancing On Ice, Big Brother and other such shows with their telephone voting that makes us feel that we ought to able to have some continued say in what's occurring.
Who knows, maybe we will end up with 'phone-in' referendums. No, not one vote per eligible person, but vote if you're bothered enough to, in fact, vote dozens of times if it bothers you that much and you can afford the phone bill.
I, for one, certainly would like to see some serious changes in the system - an elected prime minister, fixed-term governments, an English Assembly, a much smaller House of Commons, an elected Second Chamber, etc., etc.
But I can't see that there will be any democratic process about the democratic processes. It seems that Gordon and the Labour bosses will decide what they think is best and put it before the existing MPs.
Sound like whatever changes happen they will suit the existing post holders!
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285 Laugh at the TOFFS.
Silly person I DONT VOTE TORY.I DID VOTE LABOUR IN 1997 & FEEL VERY
GUILTY.
IF YOU VOTE LABOUR YOU KNOW THE GAME IS UP.TIME TO GO!!
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#284 greatHayemaker
I have little doubt that you are right!
It just makes me laugh that it was proposed as an aid to making people more politically awake.
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239. dontneedthegrief:
@193..
"Perhaps..but the point is that,I believe, about 7 pubs per day are going out of business..err..caused by..
1.The recession
2.The smoking ban
Enjoy your very quiet drink whilst you can".
Exactly right.
Someone answered my original post on this by saying that he liked the smoking ban, but that wasn't the point that I was raising at all. I wasn't arguing for or against the ban, but raising an electoral issue
My question was this: did the ban p*** off enough Labour voters - people who used to enjoy a pint and a smoke in the pub or club - to contribute materially to the collapse in the Labour vote in the party's usual heartlands? I rather suspect that it did.
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The commentators have got it wrong this time. They have failed to get on terms with any of the members of the group, masterminded by Mandelson and others, which is now in the throes of finalising the planning of its deadly coup.
Gordon Brown will be gone by mid about September at the latest
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I've noticed that a few Labour supporters (a rare species these days) have appeared on this blog. If you click on their names you find that they have only posted since 8th June (whereas other posters, selected at random, have been posting for a much longer period). My paranoia is perhaps a sign of the times, but I suspect a Labour black propaganda operation. These Stalinist/Nazi/Stasi types have been using tactics of manipulating or manufacturing the 'truth' for decades now - read George Orwell.
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GOT TO BE JOKING!!
JUST SPOKEN TO A LABOUR MP He says the meeting last night was more like
a ***I party meeting.THE FLUNKS IN SUITS GETTING HEAVY, NUMEROUS NASTY
PHONE CALLS BEFOREHAND DEMANDING LOYALTY!!
IS THIS GORDY'S NEW DEMOCRACY POWER AT ANY PRICE???
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Given the disastrous EU election results, the PM no longer has the mandate to ratify the Lisbon Treaty (if he ever had it). Those parties who unthinkingly support the EU were given a drubbing.
Those of a more sceptical persuasion performed far better. Indeed it wouldn't be surprising to find out that a majority of those voting voted for parties against the Lisbon Treaty.
Yes to a Common Market and limited co-operation on crime and climate change.
No to EU Defence, No to EU foreign policy, No to trivial rules and laws on inconsequential matters. And a bigger "NO" to the current unaccountable, inefficient and ultimately corrupt EU administration (Commission and Parliament).
We also need to discuss the "immigration issue" without it descending into accusations of racism. We need to be able to manage the local services in this country, and the skills we need to make the country prosperous again. I fear this can't be done with almost totally porous borders to the EU and elsewhere.
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#283
I concede a small amount of "touche"... can be taken by yourself, however, there is no point in claiming we have a real and meaningful constitution. Our "constitution" allows changes by either national parliamentary acts or , more worryingly, European parliamentary acts to progressively change it. As Labour have forced through hundreds and hundreds of useless pieces of legislation over the last 12 years this makes a mockery of our "constitution".
I think we all would like a single written document, the principles of which cannot be changed by the tinkerers either at Westminster or Strasbourg of whatever political hue.
The really interesting case in point is Germany. They have effectively negated the worst parts of the Human Rights Act by saying they accept the act but only if it doesn't interfere with their constitution. Something we, unfortunately cannot do. Hence a criminal's rights remain greater than victims rights etc..etc..etc. and people like Cherie Blair continues to defend the indefensible at the taxpayers expense.
Good topic for another blog maybe?
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You wonder about Brown's character, don't you?
I guess if you understand his background it may shed some light on his behaviour.
Brown is what is described in Scotland as "a son of the manse."
His father was a Presbyterian Minister, who was a very strong influence on Gordon.
That should worry you. You don't have a reasonable man at the heart of Government. It probably explains his "holier than thou" mentality; i.e. Gordon knows best, but the influence will definitely intrude on coherent thought and the decision making process.
He will be driven by principles that non Church of Scotland members will find bizarre.
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Some labour polemicist wrote deprecating German policy. 287 I recall.
The German Banks (private shareholder banks not the ones Gordon citicised which belong to the communities and resisted UK takeover) are in trouble. The Socialist Finance Minister (Steinbrück) made them reveal their dodgy assets. Love from London and New York most of them. They trusted Gordons regulatory regime. (Reckless say the socialists. Ta Gordon. Thanks for spending my taxes for the next twenty years so generously. Oh. Forgot to mention. Am opting to be taxed in Germany. Get a better deal than in UK and honest politicos. I soon as I've got my affairs in order I'll tell the Labour Party how much I've saved and what I get for my dosh.
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I am a labour supporter and have been on here since beginning/middle of may 2009
I notice that idiots have tried to throw eggs at Nick Griffen, Honsetly what do you hope to achieve, people that do that kind of thing need to be locked up.
I don't agree with Mr Griffens views but why throw eggs at him, what idiots.
I honestly cann't believe it
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288
Very confused post. Are you claiming that people are blaming Brown for any of the things you tell us, at great length, we should not be? If you want to try and lay them at his door, go ahead, but it will obviously surprise you to learn you would be the only one.
To summarise, the things Brown has got wrong are related to:
1. Taxation POLICY. - 10p tax disgrace, VAT disgrace, making our tax system infinitely more complex to create work for his cronies, allowing MP's to avoid tax when others can not.
2. Spending POLICY. - ID cards, Trident, Quango's, bankrupting the UK, spending our pension pots etc. ad inf
3. International trade POLICY. - I think you'll find this one largely runs itself....
4. Choice of membership of international clubs, organisations and initiatives. - Eh? Irrelevent
5. How Britain is governed, including regulatory environments for various industries either nationally or as part of an EU-wide Directive. - FSA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But I am afraid you are dead wrong and extremely naive if you think this is all he accountable for, unless you squeeze one hell of a lot under your point 5. Schools? Military? Law and Order?
Of course you get an immediate piggy back from the head in the clouds nulab apologist, who will sycophantically cosy up to anyone who hints at criticism of the Tories(seriously, even Sagamix doesn't take you seriously), but you yiou will find that the people of the UK are not all stupid, the media especially, and the things that we are laying at Brown's door are very much in the domain of his responsibility.
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The commentators have got it wrong this time. They have failed to get on terms with any of the members of the group, masterminded by Mandelson and others, which is now in the throes of finalising the planning of its deadly coup.
Gordon Brown will be gone by about mid September at the latest
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One, man states he is ashamed to be british iam sick to the high cheekbone as i have no teeth,But at least i could have done a better job at sorting out the do good brigade etc changing laws that served the country for many many years,Laws that served the country well untill they tryed to reform every thing in sight, with little or no thought two the concequences,have you looked at the crime figers?Where is the justice for the people beeing struck down with knife crime etc ,Another poor woman lost her and her unborn childs life for what? I would like two point out in my time we had the death penalty ,I recall ruth ellis and a few more ,This was a deterant make no mistake about it. and it should be reintrouced Along with the cat of ninetails,Forget about national service the forces need good men not the rift raff So mr brown give the people back the say and stop pondering to your own little petty needs.Hear HEAR.
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#144
"Gordon Brown didn't create the banking crisis, American Banks did.
Gordon Brown didn't create the Recession. The Media did.
Gordon Brown didn't create the system that allowed for MP expenses to be exploited, it was in existence long before Labour came to power."
But our entirely believable leader said, many upon times, that he said that he would put an end to no more boom & bust! A return to a better economy doesn't qualify him to claim correctness, since everyone's had to go through the bust, first.
----
#17
"Do people really think that Osborne and Cameron would have coped with a global recession any better than GB and AD have?"
Yes. The difference between GB & AD being in charge of the economy & little George, is that little George has a lot of commons heavy hitters advising him on what to do & how to formulate the plan, instead of stubbornly taking orders from nobody. Sure, the Tories would've let a lot of banks go to the wall, but such is capitalism. Instead of propping up the living dead, with an entire half-GDP of loot, no less, it's cut down & regrow.
GB & AD vs. Osborne, Green, Bercow, Willetts, Lilley, Fabricant, May, Jenkin, Nick Hurd, Clarkie, Yeo, Heathcoat-Amory & Letwin is really no contest.
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re: 152 PurpleDogzz
Hear Hear !
These electoral boundaries are deserving of more intelligent scrutiny.
In other words DOWNRIGHT DODGY.
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23. At 00:26am on 09 Jun 2009, jocularshock_and_awe wrote:
...Unfortunately it seems that us Brits are now looking for a glamorous leader to look up to, especially when our lives seem so dull and grey.
But, here's hoping that we see through tory lies and spin and settle with someone whose policies are actually working - see Lloydstsb payback for a start.
===
I can think of 1,600 people who don't share your point of view:
Lloyds Banking Group is cutting about 1,660 jobs after deciding to close all Cheltenham & Gloucester branches and overhauling its loan and mortgage arms.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8090683.stm
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#292
Well, that's not so bad. Their bias is towards big-state Socialism, anyway, & it'll save the English taxpayers a few quid. They can have the North-East, too, while they're at it.
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@304. Blind_Captain wrote:
Brown is what is described in Scotland as "a son of the manse."
His father was a Presbyterian Minister, who was a very strong influence on Gordon.
That should worry you.
I have to say that this statement is quite frankly utter nonsense.
What you have to say about there not being a reasonable man at the heart of government is probably true but your reason for it is laughable.
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278sweet anybody
#RUBBISH - grandantidote and you know it.
well that is typically Tory you can tell me what I know, well I guess I should ask you what it is that you think I know, enlighten me.
#Labour announcements wizz passed every day, yet that is all they ever do,
I guess if they never do nothing then why are you and all the other Tories on here running them down for what they've done, that puzzles me a little but not a lot after all it comes from the do nothing party.
#The idea that more passes actually means anything is exactly the kind of labour spin we've had to put up with for the last 12 years. What is the point of an exam if all the children get an 'A'? Actually, I know what the point is - its so labour can say look they used to all 'b's and 'c's and now they all get 'a's so everyone must be brighter.
So we've arrived at the stage where passes mean nothing, all those young people who have worked their socks of would have been better off hanging around the streets in the way I remember in the eighties and nineties.
So labour, the bounders, are altering the kids marks so that Labour can look better, is that your argument, as you put it my friend,
"utter Tosh".
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Nick Robinson - Dimbleby and other lickspittle Brown Bias Corp had better look out - inciting people to throw eggs at Griffin and then immediately posting it for all to see as a headline on BBC is pretty stupid and ALSO BIASED. STOP being BIASED and keep to facts - oh, and look out for retribution coming your way in some shape or form from the BNP supporters.
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#314
Why so?
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312
Not just them Yellow. As I said earlier, heart breaking meeting earlier today in which I had to tell another raft of people they were being let go. Good people all, but there is not enough business for them anymore, and if we do not cut our costs down we will not survive the recession.
There is no sign of recovery on our latest monthly actuals, and each successive forecast is bleaker than the last.
Fairly obvious that those who are confidently telling us things are getting better do not know what thing are like in the real world, those of us not receiving our money from the State in one form or another.
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In theory and in practice, are MPs elected to lead or to represent the electorate? In my opinion, MPs ignore the electorate after the election. During the election, we are expected swallow the spin.
PM stands for Prime minister, one of many ministers. Should PM lead or represent MPs? PMs, past and present, seem to treat MPs as people who are there to toe the party line. Carrots and sticks.
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If Gordon Brown is so good at dealing with the McGlobal Economic Crisis, why doesn't he move back to being chancellor?
I mean, if he has the good of the country and the Labour Party at heart, and he is the best man to deal with the McGlobal, why are we distracting him with other issues ranging from consitutional issues and MPs' expenses to Susan Boyle's well-being?
He has little or no experience or authority when it comes to anything outside of the Treasury.
Genuinely, I would rethink my loathing of Gordon Brown if he were to step down as PM to become chancellor again.
I'm not saying he would be any good, I thought he was absolutely awful as chancellor. But it would make me believe that he actually believes what he says about being the best man for the job.
Because he's clearly not the best man to be Prime Minister. I think that is simply undeniable.
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306 Defender of parliament
What on earth did they think they would achieve? All they have done is give Nick Griffin some better publicity than he would otherwise have got
Very worrying too that the violence wasn't coming from the BNP but was organised by labour supporting Unite union.
The union official interviewed on SKY seems to think that democracy is OK as long as it fits in with his views.
If this is Labour's way of trying to counteract the BNP influence it could lead to the sort of civil disorder we haven't seen in this country for years.
Do they think the same way about Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness who were seen as terrorists all those years ago?
Labour need to calm this down now. Once it starts there is no stopping it.
Like all extreme parties the BNP will have to adapt to a more moderate view if it wants to gain any momentum. Violence only promotes more violence.
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316
Actually agree with you on a point of principle, but suspect your post will not be popular.
What I find particurarly ironic about this is Donna Guthrie's statement
"We decided to make sure our voices were heard," she told the BBC. "We made sure we had a presence outside Parliament."
I'm afraid that is not what you did at all. What you did was to make sure someone else's voice wasn't heard. Despicable behaviour any way you cut it, not agreeing with someone is not an excuse to censor them. He has been democratically elected, he has a right to make his voice heard.
Gordon on the other hand...
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Brown's policies are farcial. Even now, he is putting off the tax rises and cuts he KNOWS are needed until after the next election. We have lost a whole year when action is needed NOW.
And the 50% tax rate? Even if it collects the amounts claimed (which it won't) it will collect £1.8bn a year but runs the risk of driving out entrepreneurs from the UK or discouraging new ones from coming. And the VAT cut which has had no effect whatsoever on the economy? Cost the Government £12bn. Farcical.
No-one can defend this but labour apologists will try.
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315
#The idea that more passes actually means anything is exactly the kind of labour spin we've had to put up with for the last 12 years. What is the point of an exam if all the children get an 'A'? Actually, I know what the point is - its so labour can say look they used to all 'b's and 'c's and now they all get 'a's so everyone must be brighter.
So we've arrived at the stage where passes mean nothing, all those young people who have worked their socks of would have been better off hanging around the streets in the way I remember in the eighties and nineties.
So labour, the bounders, are altering the kids marks so that Labour can look better, is that your argument, as you put it my friend,
"utter Tosh".
Hi Grand, I feel I have to comment on this last bit. The problem is that Higher Education is supposed to be only there for the brightest students, not a de facto state of continuing education for the masses. My Father is the Dean of Engineering at a large red-brick university and can assure you that the standard of intelligence of the straight 'A' students has fallen significantly in the last 20 years. It's not the pupils' fault, they are taught to pass the exams and they pass them. However the more people that achieve top grades, the more pointless the exam as it is not distinguishing the cleverest pupils from the rest.
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240 greathaymaker
I wasn't suggesing for one minute that all who vote Tory fail to appreciate facts I am sure they do but they get very small change from the Tories on that count. I am pretty sure you will agree that the 28% that did get of their backsides to vote for the Tories didn't do it for anything that the Tories had done to deserve it, they were the die hard Tories straining to get there party back into power no extras,whereas the Labour voters declined to vote because they are feeling a bit p----ed off with labour at this momentwith all thats going on expenses, the economy and job losses hence the 15% turn out aided and encouraged by the biased reporting of the media, who are always calling out for more and more confrontation.
We may need and cry out for more honest government in this country but we definately need the press and media in general to be honest and unbiased to any party. then people would have more confidence in voting
on the facts and not media fiction.
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#315 Grandantidote
I can honestly say, in my opinion of course, that of all the posters here of all shades you are full of the most risible horse do-dos.
Your posts rarely have anything to say, just rehashing previous posts with smart alec comments that have little or no grounding in reality and sound just like Labour-central office. I doubt anybody here takes you seriously at all. Gordon is toast, Labour are Toast, not just yet maybe but as is the wonderful gift of schadenfreude we can watch them immolate themselves over the next 11 months.
You can be at the front of the ship cheerleading all you like, but as the ship is the Titanic, I wish you luck.
The sad thing is that you really can't see the mess Gordon is leaving this country in. And as for schools don't even get me started with two kids at secondary school I see daily what an absolute pigs ear Labour have made of education, or should I say "Edukashun innit".
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315. At 3:11pm on 09 Jun 2009, grandantidote wrote:
#Labour announcements wizz passed every day, yet that is all they ever do,
I guess if they never do nothing then why are you and all the other Tories on here running them down for what they've done, that puzzles me a little but not a lot after all it comes from the do nothing party.
Wow, you try to say that labour isn't all spin and then mention the 'do nothing party' - the irony.
#The idea that more passes actually means anything is exactly the kind of labour spin we've had to put up with for the last 12 years. What is the point of an exam if all the children get an 'A'? Actually, I know what the point is - its so labour can say look they used to all 'b's and 'c's and now they all get 'a's so everyone must be brighter.
So we've arrived at the stage where passes mean nothing, all those young people who have worked their socks of would have been better off hanging around the streets in the way I remember in the eighties and nineties.
So labour, the bounders, are altering the kids marks so that Labour can look better, is that your argument, as you put it my friend,
"utter Tosh".
Most universities would state that the quality of new entrants is going down, but it isn't really relevent to my point. I actually feel sorry for the kids in the current system, simply because when every child gets an A how do the gifted really excel? Or do you think that's against the socialist plan and we should all be brought down to the lowest level?
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Nick, come on, you're the best in the business. Please don't resort to the tactics of rags like the Mail and the Times
Please change that photo of Gordon! It's very unflattering
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Post 306
I know exactly what you mean. Have you seen he price of eggs lately? A complete waste.
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Dear New Labour Bloggers,
When you find time to look up from your crib sheets you will find that people just don't buy it.
The highway to hell is paved with good intentions particularly if you spend what you do not have. You do not own the patent on good schools and hospitals merely because you say so. 'I meant well' is not good enough when repeated ad nauseam. Repetition does not equal truth. All can take pride in palpable success but it takes a big man to say sorry.
Advice for Gordon(too late, I fear). When supping with the devil make sure you take along that long spoon. He was in charge of the nations wealth for many years. The city gives great dinners in the Mansion House. Read Gordons speeches. An education. He screwed up. Like Sir Fred.
For the same reason. Arrogance.
Now that party machine. All parties have them. They identify voting groups, tendencies in fine detail. Ask Alistair. You lost 800,000 last Thursday to what?. Sorry Britain is what you should say. Find out with a bit of soul-searching and don't jump to conclusions about my voting allegiance.
Afterthought. Why do former Labour luminaries all have chips on their shoulders merely because they say things you don't want to address.
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148. At 10:24am on 09 Jun 2009, niceredjimmy wrote:
Brown is right not to capitulate. CAMERON IS A WOLF in sheeps clothing he would have let the banks go to the wall and unemployment soar to 4 million to achieve lower wages and stricter trade union controls and a bigger purse for his tory loyals... always remember Cameron's immortal words
THANK GOD FOR MARGARET THATCHER - BEWARE !!!!!
could you go back to that ???
===
Yes.
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Just heard that Nick Griffin has been pelted with eggs while the police stood by and did nothing.
Yeh, about right for this leftie-ridden-hell-hole-PC-crudie-immigrant-infested-dump of a country.
No doubt that has put a smile on the sickly face of unser lieber PM.
And now they have to "swear to be faithful" to Gordon Jong Brown.WHAT???!!
Hitler made his SS men do the same.Speaks volumes.
The higher you build your tower the harder it will fall. And I can't wait.
No doubt some BBC leftie will censor this, as usual.I want my free-speech back!
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300. SecretSkivver wrote:
I've noticed that a few Labour supporters (a rare species these days) have appeared on this blog. .... My paranoia is perhaps a sign of the times, but I suspect a Labour black propaganda operation.
==========================
Yes, it certainly looks like a orchestrated campaign, directed from above. This latest initiative also includes more women MPs on TV eg Geraldine Smith, presumably in an attempt to counteract Caroline Flints allegations about the PMs views of women MPs. The whole thing is as predictable as it is transparent.
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Grandantidote 315
There is no doubt at all that Labour have ruined education. The A levels and GCSEs are so easy now compared to what they were. As Blair came to power on the education, education, education ticket it is sad to see that education is failing so badly especially amongst young white boys. We have more children leaving school than ever before unable to read and write or do numbers. Indeed I have been shocked as I go about my work seeing that young people cannot read, spell or write properly and yet are passing exams. I find that very strange if standards have not dropped.
We also find now that Ed Ball is further trying to reduce our education standards by introducing the Academic Diplomas, which all education bodies have said will undermine our A levels and GCSEs still further. In education other Countries are so far ahead of us there will come a time when our students will not be wanted for any jobs abroad because we will not have the skills needed.
Furthermore in our Universities more people are going, but dropping out and also they are taking degrees which are not suitable or of use to employers, easy ones like in business studies etc. The hard degrees which are needed such as engineers are being ignored because they are too hard for the level of student that comes from our schools. They then end up on benefits because no employers want these kind of degrees and because they will not accept lesser jobs.
Yes the failure of our education system is the biggest sin of all Labour have committed and I personally will never forgive them for it. It has been cynically done by Labour to make their education figures look good and that I am afraid is the truth. Letting young people down in this most basic need, education is far worse than the debt that has been handed down by this Government for future generations.
I think it is very wrong of you to deny these facts as they are well documented and the figures are available to all. This transcends usual politics because education is the right of every young person and failure by Government in this area should not be an option.
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oh dear, Gordon Brown is barely 24 hours into his stay of execution and he's already up to his old tricks again:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5485793/Gordon-Brown-refuses-to-publish-report-into-finances-of-Labour-MP-Shahid-Malik.html
Poor old Gordon Brown; he just can't help reverting to type with his bullying and blocking tactics.
No sooner has he stepped off the pulpit of reforming the expenses system than he refuses to publish details of someone who had to stand down.
How very embarrassing for all those newlabour apologists claimin today that yet agian Gordon Brown had saved his skin and was the right man for the job..
This is becoming a joke.
Call an election.
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Post 221 - corruptfred wrote:
" The only time you get to influence politics in this country at Westminster, is once every five years or before, if the Prime Minister calls an early election. You have no other rights.
Other elections mean nothing to Westminster politicians. As for democracy, I think you all live in cloud cuckoo land if you really think any politician believes in real democracy. POWER IS ALL THEY UNDERSTAND. It's the drug they are addicted to.
We don't live in a real democracy and we never have. The institutions like the Westminster Parliament, the media and TV, the multi national corporations, the European Commission, all dictate your life. What say do you have in any of them? they are more powerful now than they ever were before.
And you'll have even less once you see Labour's self enhacing constitutional changes. Expect things to get really dirty. You ain't seen nothing yet! "
==================================================================
I agree with all the above, and suggest everyone who really cares, and wants this issue tackled head-on, takes a look and sign the new "People Democracy" e-petition via the link below: http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/peopledemocracy/
... as a number of people have pointed out, venting on blogs will achieve very little, unless we also make the point directly to Gordon Brown too ... i.e. the electorate are demanding a 21st century democracy, and one where "real democracy happens every day ... and not just on election day".
If you are adding your voice/concerns here, then make sure you add your voice to the e-petition too ... as this formally registers your request direct with Number 10 (and it has to be answered). It's quick and easy to do (far quicker than writing a comment on this blog!), and if you don't bother do things like this ... why do you waste time raising all your concerns on blogs? ... you can take a look at Post 80 earlier, and http://poweromics.blogspot.com/2009/06/raising-it-with-prime-minister.html for more information too.
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yellowbelly1959 331
Me too.
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Nick,
There is nothing odd or unusual about the Labour Party backing the loser that is Broon. He has demonstrated that he is a control freak who is utterly ruthless to those within the party and, through Mandy, the rest of us including the media. So who cares if he lasts another day, another week or another year. His future was written a long time ago, and it doesn't include being PM beyond June 2010.
As for the election itself, I haven't laughed so much for years. Poor Harriet was put up to parrot the official line, while all around was crumbling. The only sight that would have been more satisfying would have been that of Broon crying into his beer while muttering something about fighting on Obama beach.
Cheers
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331 and 337
Me too.
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Dear Nick,
GB is as safe as anyone can be who has a bunch of cowards as supporters.
Really, this lot can not even organise a mere overthrowing! Bring back the tories and real, honest, good old fasion backstabbing!
Xxxx
p.s.
Today Nick Griffin (MEP) was heckled and mobbed by members of Unite Against Fascism. Some UAF was even quoted as saying they wanted to "defend democracy"!
Hello, Nick Griffin was ELECTED by democracy!!!!!
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303. At 2:48pm on 09 Jun 2009, Saintmm wrote:
#283
Yes of course you have a point, but I would not have invoked it for addressing the utterly mournful 241stablescotland, particularly as regards their wish to cast HMQ in the most unlikely of roles. So my meaning of the C word was certainly appropriate there.
But thank you for your gracious word of concession.
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#331
Me too.
You see I, unlike socialists, don't mind people getting wealthy. I do not have a huge chip on my shoulder. If these wealth creators make other people wealthy in the process then great. You know most of these company "fat-cats" create jobs for thousands of people in the country.
It isn't easy you know or every T, D & H would be able to do it. Most can't and just sit on the sidelines bleating how it "isn't fair, that whilst I sit here on my backside doing nothing you are making yourself rich and I don't like it." Conveniently forgetting the sacrifices and long hours and the thousands of people who gain their employment from the company.
You only have to read the blogs of the lefties and they reveal their true colours with words like "Tory-boy" "Toff" or "Eton Educated" as if that is some sort of sin. It is the childish politics of spite and envy. They want to keep everybody down in the pit and drag down anyone who dares to try and climb out. All the while enriching themselves. See such class warriors as Blears, Smith, McNulty & Every single Kinnock in the country.
Clarkson said it best "Yes, Socialists want to help the poor, but only about half as much as they want to hurt the rich".
Spiteful bunch.
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320. At 3:28pm on 09 Jun 2009, ColonelDigby wrote:
"If Gordon Brown is so good at dealing with the McGlobal Economic Crisis, why doesn't he move back to being chancellor?"
Now this is of course complete and utter hearsay, but I think that might just have been the 'fall-back' plan - if there had been any credible alternative to Gordon as Leader prepared to put his/her head above the parapet.
Basically, if Gordon must step down as Prime Minister, then either Mandy goes forward, or they bog the selection process down in adminstrative nonsense so the the the First Minister for State effectively becomes PM. Now, if that were to have happened, who would Mandy have chosen for Chancellor do you think?
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The Labour Party have made Britain a laughing stock to the world. I am totally ashamed and embarrassed of this garbage that we have to endure as our government.They are like an unruly mob of old etonian louts who seem to be playing kindergarten games with our lives and they could not care what effect it is having on us! I truly detest Labour with a vengeance and the effect of the nations recent voting in both elections has ultimately shown the respect we have for labour. Well done UKIP and BNP. This was heralded that the minor parties would make a break through, and the nation has shown exactly that. They are fed up with their greedy, selfish, insular, spineless leadership. Labour had the best chance of all to get rid of Brown at their meeting but being the old etonian louts that they are "old boys stick together for the sake of the common good" WOW! No change! just another day.
I am still amazed that the people that voted for labour cannot see how bad they are for Britain
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319. At 3:26pm on 09 Jun 2009, puzzling wrote:
"In theory and in practice, are MPs elected to lead or to represent the electorate? In my opinion, MPs ignore the electorate after the election."
Indeed, the current system works on the principle that the general electorate select their honourable and trustworthy representatives in the House of Commons. Once there, these representatives can pretty much do as they like in so far as, in reality, the only people who are likely to 'rein them in' at all are their party Leaders / whips.
You have even less recourse if the person is Independent.
Of course, having said that, even if an MP gets expelled from the Labour, Tory or whatever party - s/he can stay there as an Independent MP until the next election.
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No310 Ello Ello
I think I could pick a better team than that;
Bercow - hated by the parliamentary party
Osbourn - the poor mans Bullingdon Club Kid
Clark - according to Lord Tebbit- lazy
Willetts - two brains, unable to change a light bulb
May - we are the nasty party
Fabricant - the Lichfield hair stylist
Letwin - a banker,
Are you joking? Bring back Derek Conway!
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304. At 2:48pm on 09 Jun 2009, Blind_Captain wrote:
"You wonder about Brown's character, don't you?
I guess if you understand his background it may shed some light on his behaviour.
Brown is what is described in Scotland as "a son of the manse."
His father was a Presbyterian Minister, who was a very strong influence on Gordon.
That should worry you"
Wot the @#@#?
Should we be more, or less, worried if his Dad was a Muslim cleric or a Jewish rabbi, or an English C.O.E. vicar?
If so, or not, exactly why?
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With reference to damiendruce #280 and all others who want a General Election. Its possible to have one in 3 weeks if, in the House of Commons, Mr Cameron wins a vote of no conference in the Government. Mr Brown would then be forced to go to see the Queen. So its far better that you e-petition Mr Cameron because if he has the bottle its in his hands. Me I think he's all talk and no backbone.
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335. At 4:14pm on 09 Jun 2009, RobinJD wrote:
oh dear, Gordon Brown is barely 24 hours into his stay of execution and he's already up to his old tricks again:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5485793/Gordon-Brown-refuses-to-publish-report-into-finances-of-Labour-MP-Shahid-Malik.html
Poor old Gordon Brown; he just can't help reverting to type with his bullying and blocking tactics.
No sooner has he stepped off the pulpit of reforming the expenses system than he refuses to publish details of someone who had to stand down.
How very embarrassing for all those newlabour apologists claimin today that yet agian Gordon Brown had saved his skin and was the right man for the job..
This is becoming a joke.
Call an election.
=====================================
Strange timing the re instating of Shahid Malik, and probably one of the first of many deals which have been handed out in to help keep Mr Brown as PM. If he has been found not guilty of missue of expenses then why can't this report be published? Not publishing this report makes people draw their own conclusions along the lines of support the PM and this investigation will disappear. I wonder what would happen if I put through a plasma TV and massage chair on my Tax return, if HMRC started asking me questions would I recieve the same treatment as Malik and be given the all clear, I very much doubt it.
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Who cares who they have for their unelected leader - it's just moving the deck chairs on the titanic.
I'm more worried about the 'constitutional reforms' he is going to announce.
What the **** is this going to be?
We can't have a general election unless 200 labour MPs who's name begins with a Q send a signed letter asking for one?
This is worse than Mugabe.
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342
Agreed, and to add.
I have lost count of the number of NuLabradours recently who have made attempts to defend expense claims by saying that a) politicians don't earn enough and b) if we take away more of their money we would be left with a load of independently wealthy politicians AND WE WOULDN'T WANT THAT WOULD WE.
Never seen so blatant an exhibition of envy, the very fact that someone is independently wealthy is apparently sufficient evidence that they are not fit to govern.
We do not, of course, want a return to the days when there was no salary for politicians, but for crying out loud, get some common sense. Independently wealthy people have, in all likelyhood, enjoyed a very good education (Blair...), and are in politics because they genuinely want to be, not because it is the only way they can earn a (very good) salary). Let me assure you, I would not employ Brown to run my books for me, and Blears, Smith, Straw etc. would be laughed out of the interview. Mandy might get in, he at least has a brain.
Spite and envy is all socialism amounts to. I would not stoop so low as to say that all labour voters are those who benefit from the State, be they the unemployed or public sector workers, but they would not stand a snowball in hells chance if these votes were disgregarded. I am not heartless, I have no problem supporting those who are genuinely unable to support themselves, but I heartily resent being forced to support those who refuse to.
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Tony Blair is Tory Blair masquerading as a socialist. Ed Balls and Harriet Harperson are privately educated privileged people who have perfected their mockney accents in order to identify with the people they think they are representing. Brown is a cloistered recluse brought up in austerity far removed from present day society. I expect Shaun Woodward will need to supress his cut glass accent now so he can get down and dirty with the street people.
Give me Cameron any day. At least he doesn't pretend to be anyone other than who he really is.
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340. Nick Griffin AND Nigel Farage were both elected by the people. If some hippie Labour liberalists find that difficult to cope with and can only respond with violence and kicking of cars I suggest they get arrested.
Meanwhile they are totally rubbishing their own cause because by hitting out at democratically elected people they are in fact giving them even more publicity. Those Labour hecklers should be aware that it was Labour's fault in totally failing to control immigration which gave rise to the popularity of UKIP and the BNP. So long as we have hippie lefties who are naive enough to think this country needs even more immigrants the parties who try to control it will thrive.
Labour, you only have yourselves to blame.
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No, you wouldn't have thought it was important that Gordon was'the son of the manse' rather than the son of vicar in the CofE. But he does and he told us why! Check it out #347
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#292 JohnConstable
John - I live in Scotland and I've looked at that blog several times over many months.
The real issue is that since we have other devolved assemblies and the like, the Westminster Parliament is of increasingly less importance to the people outside England. This is exacerbated by the increasing importance of the European Parliament.
Now I follow the logic and history of the setting up of the national assemblies and the Scottish Parliament, but really the whole democratic system in the UK seems now to be 'lop-sided'.
There needs to be an English Assembly or Parliament and then a reformed version of the existing UK Parliament over all of the national assemblies - perhaps dealing with a limited 'brief' of taxation, defence, and a number of overview roles.
Or perhaps, such national assemblies should take over pretty much the role of the House of Commons and be kept in check by some sort of elected House of Lords.
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#348
Watch parliament tomorrow. The minor parties have tabled a motion calling for that election and the Tories and Liberals are supporting it.
Don't hold your breath though. The same invertebrates that backed Brown last night will be there again.
(My apologies to worms etc.....useful invertebrates)
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"People should be entitled to hear what we have to say and to hear journalists question us robustly." (Griffin).
Fair comment.
Are there any Unite Against Fascism supporters reading this thread?
If there were, would they admit it, or would they just crawl back under their rocks ashamed of their folly?
Do they realise the irony in using violent and confrontational methods, which does little more than demonstrate their own hypocrisy?
Well done Donna Guthrie and co - your ignorance and stupidity will give the BNP that little extra publicity AND you all look like just the bunch of thugs you wish to suppress. Congratulations you idiots.
Just because you don't like it - doesn't mean it can't be said.
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326. purplegeorgina. Valiant attempt at getting through but Grandantidote is not the most articulate of chaps. He has two chips on each shoulder as do most Labour supporters. I call them party of have nothings even in this land of equal opportunities! ROFL. :)
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Just in case anyone thought that all the attacks on our rights were in limbo, it is business as usual.
I see that those who have been arrested and charged with various offences and have "disposable income of more than 3,398@, whatever that means, will have to pay for their defence.
So the state arrests you, charges you, hauls you up in court and you , from January, might find you dont get a decent defence unless you pay.
The lawyers, who obviously have an interest, are united in their opposition saying that the threshold has been set far too low.
How will this be collected ? Once you are banged up you have no income. Are they going to sell any assets you and your family may have ?
Just another nail in the coffin of our justice system.
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321
I as a labour supporter totally and 100% agree with you.
I'm not sure about them being labour related but if they are I am utterly disgraced.
I was going to Email the Unite Against Facism and give them a flick in the ear, for going too far.
I don't like the BNP, I don't support them, but to actually do that is going too far, I am fed up and annoyed with the UAF. You are a bunch of fascists in fact for doing what you did.
An idiotic action, that was hardly democratic, and I will be e-mailing you and giving you a flick in the ear hole for going too far.
I myself wrote to the PM about the BNP and the threat they pose, but I have been contradicted by some low scum who decided it a good idea to turn to violence and throw eggs, utter idiots who deserve to be arrested under the Public order act.
I still stand beside the PM however, but urge him to give the UAF a flick in the ear hole for aggressive action this afternoon, that action is not the right way to stop the BNP.
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With reference to #350 jon112uk
see my message #348 a General Election is in Mr Camerons hands if only he has the bottle to exercise his rights
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I have now messaged the UAF in a less strongly worded way, but I still feel convinced today's action gave a very damaging view on a peaceful group that unites against fascism.
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357. At 5:06pm on 09 Jun 2009, RagJunkie69 wrote:
"People should be entitled to hear what we have to say and to hear journalists question us robustly." (Griffin).
Fair comment.
Are there any Unite Against Fascism supporters reading this thread?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt it as my previous comment is still on here! (for the moment...)
Is it possible for politics to have left-right free-speech in this country instead of left-left?
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Mission Impossible - Plans to win the next election
1. Gordon to stop dwelling on the past during PMQs and to desist with the "Do Nothing" lines. He should focus on the future and what Tory policy is whilst also outlining and defending his own policies and plans if Labour stay in power. He needs to take apart Tory policy and show how truly lacking and wafer-thin it is
2. Cynical as it may be, Cameron very astutely allowed the media to come in to his home and see what a family man he is and what a very good father he is. This in turn helped with the caring Conservatives remolding. Gordon would do well to do the same and he should definitely start to use Sarah and the family more. The average voter sees Gordon as being dour, mean, and generally scrooge-like, when I'm sure that if we got a real insight this would be proven to be untrue. This would most certainly appease the airhead Ok/Hello/Vogue brigade. Ideally do it at Christmas when more people will watch and be emotionally affected by it
3. As much as I like them, a lot of people don't like Harman, Mandy, Livingstone and to a lesser extent Hattersly. Therefore, they should all take a more backward seat and let more "likable" MPs like Johnson, Miliband and Bradshaw be the voices of the government and do the media rounds. There's been of a bit of an "old-guard" feeling of late. Getting the three mentioned will definitely give a feeling of freshness and that Labour has not run out of ideas or talent. Oh, and also tell Kinnock to stay out of the picture. Getting his backing is like being told you're a savy investor from Fred Goodwin
4. Get Rupert Murdoch on side. Sky/Sun/Times are all extremely hostile at the moment and The Sun is the deciding party in any election. Sun Readers are basically robots with the editorial spin telling them what to do. Murdoch never backs losers, prove to him you're not one
5. Make sure that when the economy recovers you get the message across very clearly but not smugly or "I told you so". Compare with what Tories would have done
6. Get the Lib Dems on side to attack the Tories. It's no secret that Vince Cable thinks Osborne is a total lightweight. Cable has a great deal of respect and his words will carry some meaning
7. No smearing at all!! At all!!!
8. Be very tough with regard to MP's expenses
9. Take away the whip from Blears, citing her expenses. That will get a few million extra votes
and most importantly
10. Take on Cameron in a QuestionTime Debate like the American system. If you really are the person to lead this country then take Cameron on head-to-head in a forum where you can ask him questions and jostle. PMQs is too much in Cameron's favor. Have two debates just before the election (let Paxman mediate one and Dimmbleby the other). Trust me, Cameron will be found wanting. You could also possibly have a Chancellor's debate as well. Once, Joe Public hears and sees Osborne, trust me, it will bring back all the old Tory Toff connotations
11. BE YOURSELF GORDON. No more fake smiles
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/08/opinion/08krugman.html?_r=2
Best economist in the States certainly rates Gordy
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labour tory libs are all the same, i agree with the bnp leader griffin, the whole rag bag shower elite that is running this country,are interested only in ripping off the working man, the system is currupt and doesnt like griffin because he tells the truth, and the truth hurts.Brown wants to carry on ripping off joe public and nobody says boo to a goose.Brown cameron and clegg are all the same ....useless.
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353flamepatricia.
I agree with you that people breaking the law should be arrested and prosecuted. That is what happened to Griffin and that element of convicted criminals within the leadership of his party. Do you think that in the event of a neo-nazi party coming to power in the UK we will have the opportunity to exchange views on this or other blogs, hold press conferences on palace green, read newspapers or books of our choice and retain freedom of association, if so, why?
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169 wrote
"..The PLP does not care one jot for the Country..only its Members survival and the retention of their jobs.
That is it..period"
I think you will find that no matter what members of the PLP think of GB and his current leadership they all still believe that Labours core values and policies are better for the country as a whole than those of any other political party otherwise they could cross the floor or resign the whip to sit as an independent (as Short did).
The view is that whether Brown, A Johnson or the man in the moon was leader they would lose and this means Tory government so the most logical response is to sit tight and wait until the term of office is over to have the election.
There is little more that can go wrong and plenty that looks like it might start to go right before the GE date. So a sensible group would stay on, see if the concessions wrung from GB are delivered and likley not do any worse than they would now and possibly better. Most are resigned to defeat anyway.
Hopefully now they have realised that split parties fail spectacularly (really should have read their history better) they will try to do better.
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braveScouter 346
I have some advise for you, when you have nothing to say, say nothing. You are just embarrassing yourself.
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For ages I have been saking why should I vote for Cameron? I may not want Brown to stay, but I want to be convinced that Cameron will do the job better.
In the past the leader of the opposition may have attacked government policy and explained what they would do instead. That way I knew what they beleived in and could vote accordingly. Cameron has not been very successful at getting his policies across. So I am left with the suspicion that he will spout policies during an election campaign which will help him win the election rather than spout policies which he believes sre good for the country. The excuse that he does not want Labour stealing his ideas is a bit silly as I am sure most ideas on any issue have been considered by all parties, the unique feature to each party being the final choice of policy.
I would be very doubtful of a party which decided its position too close to an Election Day. The point about Thatcher and Blair was that we knew what we would be getting, long before the Election. And both, in the early years, kept to their promises.
One final point is about us electing the leader. Very few of the electorate had a say in who would lead the Tories and as he is the only alternative I do not see that being able to vote him in (whilst vital for the democratic process) is much of a demonstration of people exercising their choice.
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#360 you dont like the bnp and are a labour supporter,well i dont like labour and im a bnp supporter,i used to vote labour but they stick 2 fingers up to the working man,they are a disgrace.
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#347 Sutara
In answer to your question, he had a very austere upbringing. He will see the world in a bleak way and will not identify with certain aspects of life. For instance I sincerely doubt if he understands what poverty is and it's impact on society. According to some commentators, he does not identify with the accumulation of wealth, or indeed he has no desire to make money. Therefor, if the population is struggling as a result of economic policies, it will just wash over him. It's a non-issue to him.
354 blefuscu has a point as does 352 flamepatricia who comments on his cloistered upbringing.
It's been commented upon that he is dour; he is and his view of the world is dour.
Have a search on the web; there's a lot out there that will shed light on his persona.
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348. At 4:51pm on 09 Jun 2009, siranthonyj wrote:
"...who want a General Election. Its possible to have one in 3 weeks if, in the House of Commons, Mr Cameron wins a vote of no conference in the Government. Mr Brown would then be forced to go to see the Queen."
I don't think that's how it works. As far as I can see even if a vote of no confidence was passed - with Labour's current majority in the house that would be incredible - Gordon Brown does not HAVE to dissolve parliament and call a General Election. If he thinks he can bluff it out as he has enough of a majority to get the business done, as far as I'm aware he could actually ignore it.
Tomorrow, so I understand, the Scottish and Welsh Nationalists have tabled a motion in the House for the dissolution of Parliament - but that may or may not go anywhere.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Having watched the news report on the violence outside the House of Commons today, tell me again which group was the fascists ?
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Pelting eggs is not a democratic right.......
The idea in a voting democracy is that all sections of the community should get the chance to have their voice heard.
If 1 or 2 per cent of the population are paedophiles, polygamists, parasites or plonker racists, then I for one would rather that they were out in the open, heard and then dismissed by reasonable people.
If you choose to pelt Griffin with eggs and try to deny him his rights, then all you are going to do is attract bully-boy minders to him and polarise other misfits to his cause.
Not democratic at all.
Griffin's party's policies are dumb enough to condemn him by themselves, but BNP have attracted some voters because of the failures of the government in office. That can be easily rectified by a competent and listening PM.
Er, can't think of one at the moment.
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So, no election today, then..
I wonder if Cameroon has got a plan to deal with Lord Mandy Slitheryn.
The goalposts have just been moved, and we have a new, slick Master of Ceremonies.
I suspect you won't hear a peep from the Dear Brown Leader for a long while now . *
He will be kept in the background (causing the same amount of mayhem), and not be exposed for target practice from us dissenters. I suspect Mandy has the idea from the White House, that someone else does the talking for Gordo as a Downing St. spokesman (could that be a comely young lady?)
Cameroon has got a lot of thinking to do from now on. A lot of the voting public aren't looking in detail about how bankrupt Brown has made this country, and by continuing to pour funds into the public sector, he has got an easy shot at holding their votes in a general election.
Cameroon has to get it simple and concise.
* And just watch how Ed Balls gets out of taking the blame for this year's unfolding exams fiasco, with some subtle guidance from Mandy.
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356. At 5:05pm on 09 Jun 2009, Saintmm wrote:
"Watch parliament tomorrow. The minor parties have tabled a motion calling for that election and the Tories and Liberals are supporting it."
The motion for dissolution of Parliament isn't likely to go anywhere.
Labour have a significant majority in the House and even the most ardent anti-Brown backbencher will prefer the thought of another 11 months of wages over voting for voluntary redundancy.
Actually, if I were David Cameron, I'd instruct the Tories to vote against it too. The Tories aren't ready to take power yet and stalling it a bit longer gives them the chance to prepare better and to make the best of the opportunity when it comes. When it comes, they want a decent working majority and not to just scrape in or even end up in a coalition.
My guess - illogically perhaps - is that it will be in October.
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flamepat
"they are totally rubbishing their own cause because by hitting out at democratically elected people they are in fact giving them even more publicity."
I agree with this bit. Sorry about that! Those protesters did more harm than good. We should let Griffin speak instead of giving him a reason to come up with more loony conspiracy theories that reinforce support for the BNP. Did these people think that as soon as Griffin opened his mouth we would be to stupid to resist his will? With us not studying politics or anything.
358 flamepat
I can't even see one chip on my shoulder which is a shame because I was feeling a bit peckish.
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I understand there are one or two by-elections in the pipeline. These could be interesting from the angle of the "health and safety" questions of the extremely dour one.
These by-elections will be about electing MPs and not about europe or local councils, so they represent a more direct reflection of the voters' views about MP candidates. In addition they open up some amusing scenarios. In the old days (when MPs' endemic, genetic traits of greed and corruption were kept out of sight to some extent) a budding NooLaburr candidate would give a lot to have his royal dourship accompanying them in the baby-kissing/door-knocking/pointing-to-strangers-in-crowd photoshoot capers.
Nowadays, how do candidates tell the sad old duffer to stay away and hide in the bunker so as to have a tiny fighting chance of getting some foot in door action? So all-in-all, McDour may be safe for now but there's a boat full of banana skins unloading some nice surprises for the sad little man.
I'm really looking forward to some excellent entertainment while I narrow down my choices for destinations to suit my impending emigration plans.
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326 purplangelgeorgina
#I can honestly say, in my opinion of course, that of all the posters here of all shades you are full of the most risible horse do-dos.
Well my dear since you spout more of that substance on here than any other four stupid people. I have to bow to you greater knowledge and accept your opinion.
#Your posts rarely have anything to say, just rehashing previous posts with smart alec comments that have little or no grounding in reality
Yes I see what you getting at, You mean like this below
#Gordon is toast, Labour are Toast, not just yet maybe but as is the wonderful gift of schadenfreude we can watch them immolate themselves over the next 11 months.
You can be at the front of the ship cheerleading all you like, but as the ship is the Titanic, I wish you luck."Edukashun innit".
I really wish I was thick enough to write inspirational stuff like that, but I suppose I could copy it in the same way you have, after all we have seen all of these phrases dozens of times before haven't we? but then I'm not as clever as you so I'll continue in my own inimitable way writing from the heart and giving you a laugh,sorry You weren't able to help.
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148. At 10:24am on 09 Jun 2009, niceredjimmy wrote:
Brown is right not to capitulate. CAMERON IS A WOLF in sheeps clothing he would have let the banks go to the wall and unemployment soar to 4 million to achieve lower wages and stricter trade union controls and a bigger purse for his tory loyals... always remember Cameron's immortal words
THANK GOD FOR MARGARET THATCHER - BEWARE !!!!!
could you go back to that ???
_________________________________________________________________________
Cause and Effect of some laws
This is what did Thatcher
1.Right to buy
Was supposed to give every one the the right to buy there home
The effect was to give a green light to the private sector to move in to the housing market
and building and to rent houses at a inflated profit
Stop councils from building new houses to replace the house they have sold off the government of the day took that money to fund other things
therefore taking all price control out of the cost of housing
making it impossible that in some towns and villages local people
can not afford to live there as it forced up the prices of housing beyond there means
2.Privatising and splitting the GPO
Effect BT making a profit and the post office and royal mail making a loss
and the profit going to the shareholders and out of the country
3.Privatising The Utility's
Effect Companies making a profit and the profit going to the shareholders and out of the country
4.Privatising and splitting British Rail
Effect Big sell off of assets e.g.: land and office space and the profit going to the shareholders and out of the country forcing up the cost of rail travel
And no regulator with any real powers to stop these companies from taking us for every penny
5.NHS TRUSTS this was supposed to give more control of the NHS to the local people
Effect putting another set of managers in place that drive up costs of running the NHS
These are some of the things the conservatives did when they were in government
So the labour government have to find some way to cover the problems of the post office and royal mail and the only to fix that is the government as is to sell the rest of it off as the conservatives made it impossible for any other way out
6.Changed expenses and allowances system to the system we have today
We have paid for it ever since
Maximum Wage
You should look at this web page
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmhansrd/cm090603/debtext/90603-0004.htm#09060344000001
And see how many Conservatives are against it
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Seems to me that Peter Mandelson has become the King maker. He will be able to control Gordon Brown by withdrawing his support and that of his political cohorts creating a new leader in waiting and destroying Brown. He should however remember that king makers often come to sticky ends.. the Duke of Buckingham?