'Riots on the streets'
An inadvertent glimpse this morning of what David Cameron fears and is preparing for.
His own words at his news conference: "riots on the streets".
This is what he said would follow if the next government made public spending cuts having failed to prepare the public for them. And that is what he says the government is failing to do and used every word for dishonest other than "liar" to describe the prime minister.
It is also a glimpse of what Labour has been hoping for. They are counting on the fact that the public will come to associate cuts and their consequences with the Conservative party. They hope that, if the economy recovers before the next election, voters will regard cuts as ideological rather than based on economic necessity or good house-keeping.
Whoever correctly judges the public mood on this issue will hold the key to winning the next election.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~59~RS~)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The facts are
Labour WILL have to make CUTS ..There are no two ways about this
The fact they are playing games with the public and being utterly dishonest just to try and score political points from the Tories is vile beyond belief.
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"It is also a glimpse of what Labour has been hoping for. They are counting on the fact that the public will come to associate cuts and their consequences with the Conservative party."
And what else is the BBC for, after all?
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On the Daily Politics Show today The Government Housing Minister refused to say the word 'cuts' in relation to Government plans in spite of being goaded on the matter a number of times. Both he and Mandelson this morning are talking of 'tough decisions' and 'prioritising' but no mention of cuts anywhere unless in reference to The Conservative policy. People will draw their own conclusions from what is now being increasingly referred to as sheer dishonesty.
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I remember seeing a debt programme some time ago and was amazed at how every debt ridden person thought they could keep spending as they were. I just look at Labour and think, oh deary me, those people are in charge of our country
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Cameron also said he'd given up on anything this government says.
That's what's called judging the mood on the streets. Hands up those still in denial.
The programme this government are now pursuing to the death is a scorched earth policy which in the few months they have left could damage this country in a permanent and irreparable way.
The great ponzi schemes ending in total devastation for all concerned is probably as close an example as it gets.
When someone like Cameron talks about 'Riots on the Streets' it's time everyone stood up and listened. You wanted candour and you got it.
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Nick,
Hilary Benn stated last week that cuts are coming no matter what government we have so to plug this one is a pathetic attempt at Labour spin.
Gordon Brown has been dishonest with the electorate every time he stood at the dispatch box delivering his budget.
promising families he was being prudent and not risking their hard work and futures only to find his economy was built on eggshells.
Only the gullable and stupid will believe anything the Labour say anymore.
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Forewarning the public that there are hard times to come and that public services are going to be affected owing to the madness of Brown is by far more beneficial than suggesting everything is ok. It is not ok and the lack of spending review by the government proves they are up against it.
Your spin on this is remarkable though Nick - keep taking the tablets!
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Yes Cameron is right. The PM is incapable of telling the truth and can never admit to being wrong. Everyone, except him, can see that cuts are essential to avoid the country going bankrupt. More and more people now understand that the huge state pension crisis, kick started by Gordon Brown in 1997 when he attempted to destroy one of the best private pension schemes in the world, is unsustainable and no one can now expect to receive a final salary linked pension unless they are prepared to pay for it themselves.
Middle England has been very quiet so far but I for one have had enough and am sick and tired of this lying deceitful government that thinks the solution to everything is to throw vast quantities of money at it. There will be a day of reckoning and the debt will have to be repaid. Bring on the General Election now or face the very real prospect of riots and worse, remember the French Revolution.
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disgusting.the bbc makes fox news look balanced and fair minded
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Done Mandleson proud this morning. Especially after Evan Davies couldn't get a straight answer out of him on 'Today' this morning regarding the cuts that will have to come after the election.
Oh, and why postpone the spending revue until after the election, hoping for someone to clear up the mess that the present government is incapable of doing??????
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There are "riots on the streets" of most cities on a regular basis, usually fuelled by cheap alcohol and a complete contempt of anything resembling discipline, or law and order. After all, what do the "rioters" have to fear?
I suspect that Dave is referring to mass riots, specifically in London, and aimed at our ghastly polticians. Understandably so. Why on earth would anyone accept that their livelihood should be removed from them by a collection of self-seeking, corrupt and discredited array of talking politicians?
Dave can revert to the Thatcher strategy of the early '80s, designed specifically to deal with the miners: give the police a HUGE salary increase to get them on the side of government, then send in the cavalry.
Alternatively, he can clear out his party of all of the trash, rebuild it with people of substance, merit, and a sense of public duty, and explain clearly to the public the reality of our awful economic situation, and what has to be done to remedy it.
And, who knows, he might even win the next election on a wave of popular support, and behind an honest manifesto.
But don't hold your breath.
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I'm afraid that I can't see what the Labour Party is up to as acceptable politics. Sure, defend your ideology, attack unjust criticism of your record, even gloss over the more controversial parts of it, but to brazenly abuse the trust that most ordinary people are desperate to place in their elected leaders is something that Labour should never, ever, be forgiven for.
No matter that we live in an age of advertising, marketing and PR, politics, if it is to be of any value at all, must rise above these peddlars of inaccuracy, deception and untruth. Not immerse itself in it.
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I think Cameron is missing a trick here.
If nuliebour continues to suggest they will not make cuts, then they will have to re-coup the money from somewhere, for instance by raising taxes.
Cameron should start asking Broon which taxes he intends to raise, and focus attention there.
The current government stance is unsustainable.
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2 Ghost
Get real ghostie - are you suggesting the Tories have never avoided spelling out their plans for political gain?
Or are they vile beyond belief too?
Guess it's just when Labour do it?
By the way, please try to understand the difference between a fact and an opinion - it's quite a problem for some of the Tory folk on here, though my nine year old seems to have mastered it, oddly.
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So tiresome. Most of the country accept that there will be cuts and the key is how the government will manage to achieve them - by cutting public sector jobs leaving posts unfilled, reducing budgets, more PFI ?! and outsourcing. Brown has no new ideas and I question his sanity. He seems to be unaware of the effect on the country he is creating or maybe he no longer cares. All we hear is more promises of change on his pathetic Utube appearances or worse still by text or even an early morning call. Can he just go as he is the singularly most depressing person in the whole of UK even more than the last Speaker.
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It is at least illuminating, that when the Gaurdian's main headline from the news conference is the "Brown claims black is white" quote, and others have led on the shadow cabinet giving up their outside interests, or even the burkha-wearing teacher, the BBC's political editor chooses a somewhat more straightforward 'dividing line' on which to pin his story.
Bet you just can't wait for those fire-lit, winter nights in Brixton and Toxteth, eh Nick?
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Voters know there are going to be cuts in spending, even on Labourlist, Labour supporters themselves are asking Brown and his party to be honest and upfront about it.
You may try and associate Tory=cuts, but we all know Labour=lies.
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Brown likes to talk about the future and his "vision" for it - because no-one can accuse him of lying about the future, but with Brown and his collaborators in power that's all there will ever be - jam tomorrow.
The past 13 years are a sorry saga of failure and wasted opportunities and I for one hold Brown's government totally to blame. He's had more chances than anyone deserves, let alone someone of his meagre abilities.
It is totally ludicrous that Brown claims Labour to be a party of "investment" (he means handouts). Any government with a shred of intelligence and public concern will be looking to cut back on public sector spending to avoid the UK becoming bankrupt. Unfortunately we can't trust Brown and co not to make matters worse - the best we can hope for is that the world's credit rating agencies downgrade British government debt so that the idiots can't continue to borrow any longer.
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Cameron is right to chip away at the "dishonesty" and go for the jugular. And so too the LibDems through Saint Vince.
Brown has only himself to blame. He's stuck in the past and for the moment the Party is stuck with him.
The election dividing lines are indeed boiling down to honesty versus lies and trust versus deceit.
This election manifesto propaganda is selling the electorate short. A game of cat and mouse and more smoke and mirrors accounting from a fag-end government which can't bring itself to own up to its past incompetence and monumental mistakes.
And to cap it all, it's confirmed there'll be no comprehensive spending review this side of an election - so how on earth can Whitehall department plan ahead?
This election manifesto has Mandy's name written all over it with a couple of glaring omissions such as the Royal Mail sell-off and future of Trident. It's an admission of failure and begs the question what have they been doing for the last 12 years?
http://theorangepartyblog.blogspot.com/2009/06/mandy-manifesto-with-dollop-of-brown.html
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Why is there no challenge to the political parties on whether they will raise taxes and if so which ones? I just don't get this one-sided view that spending cuts are the only way to restore the nation's finances.
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The Labour Party gives the British economy Cancer everytime its in power they hope that the electorate will only remember that it is the Tory's that have to administer Chemo.
But the problem is caused everytime by Labour. They are unfit for power as can be seen from the fact that their only hope now is to fool and mislead the public again.
They are trying to spend as much of the money for the next 5 years here and now so the Tory's have nothing left
when they get in. But Brown is now so hated by us all that the blame will always stick to Brown. They will be Brown's cuts because he was the one who spent all of the money. We are not all fools.
The needs of the British public come second to the needs of the ZaNuLabour party. But we can all see it now.
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Labour "cuts" are there in black and white in the Budget. How GB has the nerve to say otherwise(i.e. LIE) is beyond the pale!
Ducking out of a spending review underlines this Labour Government's duplicity. Leave a scorched earth for the tories and hope they take the blame for Labour's spending slurge. It makes me sick.
Call an election before Labour fatally undermine what respect this county has left. Read the international press, everyone is laughing at us, we have no moral authority anymore, we can't even lecture Iran for crushing democracy when it is in full swing at home under LGB (Lying Gordon Brown).
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17. At 1:11pm on 29 Jun 2009, Laughatthetories wrote:
2 Ghost
Get real ghostie - are you suggesting the Tories have never avoided spelling out their plans for political gain?
Or are they vile beyond belief too?
Guess it's just when Labour do it?
By the way, please try to understand the difference between a fact and an opinion - it's quite a problem for some of the Tory folk on here, though my nine year old seems to have mastered it, oddly.
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Firstly do expand and qualify the " get real " comment
We are dealing with the topic of Labour denial do not try and deflect it by bringing the tories into the conversation
Labour are currently telling blatant porkies to try and garner support for their ever dwindling fanbase.
"Tory folk" are you making yet another blatant assumption based on NADA ... It appears the ad hominem attacks are out again
Anyway lets talk facts and opinion
Are you saying that Labour will NOT make any cuts whatsoever ? over to you to say otherwise
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Mr Cameron as been saying for months that there is a black hole in the goverments budgets so if this is true then if Mr Cameron gets in to power then it follows that there must be even deeper cuts to services than he as been saying
So who ever gets in to power cuts are on the way but it will be a case of how deep and how hard the cuts are and what changes to laws that will effect us all some changes will hurt the more people than others
The minimum wage is one law that effects every one all thoe they are not on
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@17
To pull us out of this recession, the Government must cut spending, or raise taxes, or conflate the two.
But then, that sort of information is hidden in books.
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Having watched Mr.Balls dissimulate his way through his interview with Andrew Marr yesterday morning I am left puzzled as to the prevailing mindset of this government. If Mr. Balls had any view on public spending it was all about shuffling the budgets around for the next two to three years whilst maintaining the current level of funding.
The problem that Mr.Balls has is that there is already a GBP 49 billion gap in the current budget which is to be covered by what are called efficiency savings. I am not clear as to the difference between an efficiency saving and a spending cut but no doubt someone will be able to hector me out of that view.
The current government has a deficit of GBP 174 billion. By the end of the recession in the Nineties the then UK government had a deficit in the region of GBP 38 billion. If I recall Kenneth Clark spent the next four years cutting and taxing to resolve that deficit. On this basis it will take more than eighteen years to resolve the current deficit and we now have far less value creating manufacturing industry in this country than we did then.
There needs to be an end to the current level of government spending. This need not mean the end of properly funded public services if the exercise is effectively managed.It is this which the government needs to address. If the government fails to address this issue then there is every prospect that the situation will deteriorate further leaving slash and burn cutting as the only solution. This will help nobody and probably lead to the riots Cameron is concerned about.
At the moment there is time to define new, constructive approaches to the provision of public services. This time is fast running out and if there is no move to address the prevailing deficit then the economic situation will only get worse leading to even bigger cuts.
If Labour fails to grasp this nettle before this autumn then it will be clear that Labour is prepared to sacrifice public services on the bonfire of their own vanity. In the end it will be Tory cuts but Labour's fault.
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This "Building Britain's Future" aka "Brown Re-launch #23,987" (well he's had so many hasn't he??!!) is being billed as the vision that Brown said he wanted to set out when he chickened out of an election in 2007 on the basis of one marginals poll, if so then you have to wonder why it's taken 18 months or so to come up with it as all it seems is a re-hash of previously announced policies. Labour will try and claim that it was delayed because of the financial crisis but he had a full year before that and the best part of another since so what was he up to then?
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Nick says that whoever correctly judges the public mood will 'win'.
I assume that comment is based upon historical data, insofar as the voting public have in the past, tended to end up voting along tribal lines.
It might be a vain hope, but I'm thinking that the English public have really had with the current crop of politicians at Westminster and will vote most of them out at the next General Election.
So I hope that that is the genuine public mood which really does result in a new type of politics in England.
We surely need it.
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Nick
I'm the public and so are all of my friends. None of us theliebe that Labour = investment and Conservative + cuts.
What we believe is that Brown will try to spend himself out of trouble leaving the Country = Our Country even more in debt.
Even if the economy turns the result in the next few months it will not be more money to reduce debt. Corporation Tax will lag and employment will continue to rise thus costing more in benefits.
You analysis is totally wrong. The feel good factor is years away.
So please try to be balanced in your comments.
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I wonder how the markets would react if the Conservatives announced that they were going to sit the next election out and let Labour carry on ? I suspect that the panic would make the 1929 Wall Street Crash look like a picnic.
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Does Gordon Brown think we are stupid? Does he really think that people will buy the idea that if Labour is in power spending would continue at the present rate? Even if Ms Piggy is the new PM - there'll have to be compromises. As a floating voter Brown's really beginning to annoy me, as do blogs leaning one way or another. Where's straight-forward unbaised journalism gone?
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Predicting riots when a Tory Government is in power is not difficult. It's bound to happen. Because most of us know that it is in the Tory DNA to want to make cuts to public services, whether the economy is in dire straits or not. Labour may be using weasle words, but any cuts will be as minimal as possible under Labour whereas Cameron and Osborne will go to it with relish. Cutting and undermining public services and public service workers is what being a Tory is all about.
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Gordon Brown is so dishonest, the next thing you know he will be cycling in to work claiming to be green, even though he is being followed by a couple of cars all the way.
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Nick
You say
"And that is what he says the government is failing to do and used every word for dishonest other than "liar" to describe the prime minister."
I'll do it for Cameron.
Gordon Brown is a LIAR.
And I don't have Parliamentary privilege, nor want it.
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obangobang
Good point. Let's focus on second jobs and tory 'honesty' v labour 'lies'. Can you tell me just how honest it is for a group of public servants to hold second jobs while they can keep them secret, but then jettison them as soon as they are required to reveal the truth?
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Nick
the biggest story of the day is your bezzy mate Mandy letting slip that they dare not have the over due Comprehensive Spending Review before the next election because the electorate would have the truth in front of them so would not vote Labour.
So you try and cover up the fact by going for 'riots in the streets'. You choose your bias and wright your blog.
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Nick Robinson is in a biased minority of one here. Laughatthetories, post #17 could benefit from having more conversations with his/her nine year old. Gordon Brown, having tried and failed with his "do nothing" attacks, has now reverted to the familiar Labour line of Tory cuts, whilst, as is his wont, uttering his usual (transparent) weasel words about Labour investment. The British electorate are not stupid.
Brown is a disgrace, utterly dishonest and incompetent.
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Cameron also tried to diffuse the new Brown cry of 'British homes for British people'.
Very similar to the Brown cry of 'British jobs for British people'.
It must be the lack of money and ground supporters that labour are so unaware yet again that this was the slogan that was used by the BNP on their leaflet at the European elections. Certainly in NE England.
It was the only slogan they used that could have been suggestively racist.
Time to question Brown's objectives more fully.
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Nick. Lord Reith must be spinning in his grave at the way the unbiased, quality reporting of the BBC has been bastardised by New Labour apparatchicks spinning the government line.
How much borrowing do you think the country can sustain? If the markets caught a whiff of a suggestion that labour might win the next election, rather than the Conservatives, the pound would sink like a stone and interest rates in the UK would soar. That is what the outside world thinks of labour's plans, or threats. Remember Dennis Healey and the IMF?
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Shocking biased item Nick. I cannot believe you have written such a blog. You're view of the bloggers is also poor since you seem to think we cannot form our own views from what we see and here (not just from the Beeb).
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Surely there needs to be some rules even to the 'game' of politics Mr Robinson? Is it right that Brown should tell not just little fibs but bare faced whoppers and get away it?
It's about time the BBC started fulfilling its pledge to impartiality, yes that includes highlighting LIES where it finds them and they don't come any bigger than Gordon's.
If you don't take part in highlighting this disingenuity then you face being obliterated as an organisation yourself and rightly so. Get a grip.
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Nick, the fact is that the present excuse for a government is borrowing money unsustainably.T his country now has a huge structural Budget deficit as a consequence of the policies of Gordon Brown. The amount of debt being piled up will of course need servicing - at the current rate of borrowing, just servicing the debt incurred could exceed the education budget.
It is a complete disaster and Brown is lying through his teeth about it - whichever party forms the next government, there will have to be spending cuts and tax rises! Brown lies, lies, lies - it is what he does best!
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35. At 1:32pm on 29 Jun 2009, heskethpark wrote:
Predicting riots when a Tory Government is in power is not difficult. It's bound to happen. Because most of us know that it is in the Tory DNA to want to make cuts to public services, whether the economy is in dire straits or not. Labour may be using weasle words, but any cuts will be as minimal as possible under Labour whereas Cameron and Osborne will go to it with relish. Cutting and undermining public services and public service workers is what being a Tory is all about.
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They can't be minimal regardless of who gets into power next.. the Public sector is so bloated cuts are needed and i say that as a public sector worker
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can anyone tell me why everyone doesn't just say it like it is? Brown is a liar and everyone knows it.
in fact, I just read that Mandelson has supposedly tied the hands of the chancellor by making a comment on public spending before the election. If I was the Darling I would consider saying something like, "I'm the Chancellor, and Mandelson is a just sleaze bag"
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Judge the public mood? Gordon Brown? Is the BBC trying to take us for fools as well as the prime minister?
The BBC should put itself up first for cuts in expenditure and then se if all those top jobs suddenly become vacant because they are now uncompetitve with the private sector... WHo exactly are these people going to work for? No-one would have them. No one in the private sector has such a feather bedded deal as the BBC execs with theri chauffeur driven cars and bottles of champagne.
Can we have a discussion on here pleaes at the number of chauffeur driven cars the BBc is going to axe? You can start with the one I recently saw John Sergeant getting inot after a slap up dinner with Lord Hattersley. What did those two great minds decide that will save the planet?
Never mind the government; the BBC needs to cut its cloth.
Call an election and shut it down.
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I used to be proud to be British. It was something to boost about. Now I see reporters put together a piece that could only be described as aggressive when considering the general mood of the public. I am amazed that a respected foundation like the BBC do not mention what everyone else is saying. They are a lone voice (oh wait a minute the government stand beside them too).
Who in their right mind believes cuts are not coming. Taxes will also need to rise for everyone. The only alternative is inflation in double digits. Has any government managed to control this?
Please feel free to report whether Labour are looking for cuts and if not how they intend to pay for the debt they are creating?
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Just as I stopped listening or responding to the likes of saga, laugh, rifle and grandantidote on these blogs I now avoid listening to the far fetched claims of The Government. Their policies are so steeped in spin and electoral desperation that they aren't worth the bother! The cancellaton of a spending review is just about the last straw but I imagine there are many other bodies capable of laying down the truth of our debt infested economy if push comes to shove.
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# 29. At 1:27pm on 29 Jun 2009, stanilic wrote:
"Labour is prepared to sacrifice public services on the bonfire of their own vanity. In the end it will be Tory cuts but Labour's fault."
That is the most sensible comment I have read. It is clear that Brown is lying, slashing and burning now, so the Tories inherit a terrible mess to deal with, for which they can then be blamed. It is as transparent as it is dishonest! We should have an election now, so a Government with a fresh mandate can start to address the black hole in the nation's finances sooner rather than later.
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It seems partisan to link only the tories with spending cuts. All parties will need to do more with less, i.e. cut waste from spending and spend remainder more effectively. This may blow minds at the BBC but one can get same results for public while spending less. Eliminating nonsenses in bureaucracy and silly races to spend annual budgets are two examples.
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It's about time the BBC started fulfilling its pledge to impartiality, yes that includes highlighting LIES where it finds them and they don't come any bigger than Gordon's.
If you don't take part in highlighting this disingenuity then you face being obliterated as an organisation yourself and rightly so. Get a grip.
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Judging from the past actions of alistair campbell it would take a very brave media organisation to directly accuse the government of lying.
The BBC got dragged over the hot coals and condemned by an 'independant' government enquiry - even though the main allegation - that government officials had changed the wording on intelligence reports for public consumption- was shown to be largely true.
Its not surprising that the beeb is not eager to fin d itself on the wrong end of the government boot again.
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David Cameron can go stick it!!! He is an absolute disgrace...Lets see how much they have been earning from their rich friends in business with their second jobs...David Cameron is going to start massive cuts...im a teacher and remember how bad it was with the tories last time. All he can do is make sick personal attacks on the primmininster disgusting. Listening to David Cameron sppeak I felt sick...knowing he is preparing to sack policemen, teachers, and other crucial staff. Why not sack Osborne...and give us a ll a break.
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Everyone I know within the 'general public' wants cuts - and plenty of 'em - in order to stop the country going down the pan. Start with public sector final-salary pensions, then take the knife to NHS middle management.
And everyone knows Brown is a liar.
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Just listned to David Camerons speech and heared him with his new trick..he says two or three facts that appear to be true then he comes out with a suggestion he wants people to believe. It is know as a truism...he talks about election post being postponed then 10 p tax etc then gets his suggestion in about Gordon Brown's premiership being dishonest...fact fact then suggestion...SO SEE THROUGH DAVID!!!STOP USING PSYCHOLOGICAL TRICKS SUCHS AS TRUISMS AND COME UP STRAIGHT DAVID..ITS YOU NOT THE PRI MININSTER WHO IS HIDING SOMETHING!!
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As much as i hate to say it but David Cameron is correct. With the level of public borrowing the government will have to cut spending. It is another example of Gordon worrying too much about a fourth term than what is best for the general public. I wish he would just be honest and say that yes he will have to cut spending as the public will understand why. I do however think that DC is overdramatising things when he says there will be 'riots on the streets' if the next government makes cuts without preparing the public.
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Oh Dear
Nick Seeing as the BBC has been so implicite as part of the Zanulabour spin machine that its imparciality is no longer evident, I don't see the problrm with coming out on the side of the people and absolutely blasting labour into Oblivion for its ecconomic mismanagement and constant LIES. The BBC should not be impartial it is funded by the people it should be on the side of the people Fullstop
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54. At 1:55pm on 29 Jun 2009, davidou1234 wrote:
David Cameron can go stick it!!! He is an absolute disgrace...Lets see how much they have been earning from their rich friends in business with their second jobs...David Cameron is going to start massive cuts...im a teacher and remember how bad it was with the tories last time. All he can do is make sick personal attacks on the primmininster disgusting. Listening to David Cameron sppeak I felt sick...knowing he is preparing to sack policemen, teachers, and other crucial staff. Why not sack Osborne...and give us a ll a break.
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Pot kettle black springs to mind
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I hate to refute the Nick bashing here, but his pronouncements on the 10 O'clock news are often more unbiased to my ear. I don't know if that has anything to do with the larger audience he reaches at that time. His assessments of Labour and LGB are often spot on.
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Brown will do whatever it takes to save his skin. Re: a post above on tory second jobs etc. Is it also right that we have a goverment who have non elected people make big decisions for us? Is it right that they bring back peopkle who have been sacked from office two or three times? Is it right that we went into a war on lies that have cost thousands of lives?
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So Labour won't even admit to making cuts and Brown wants to spend his way to election victory. Has there ever been a more dishonest and dangerous government in the UK's history?
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Nick
This is about who is being truthful and who is lying. As has been mentioned this is going to be a game a chess as regards who ends up on top.
But whoever wins the election has one almighty mess to deal with. Why does Brown want to win, is this his ego trip?
Will gaining power for another term really do him or the country any good.
He has proved beyond doubt that he is not PM material either in character or deed. Why would he want to gain control over nothing. He has single handedly destroyed an economy that he has no idea how to retrieve and yet he plays this stupid word game with Cameron.
When will we get what we have been paying for - true representatives of our views and MP's who will tell the truth.
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A good example of Labour "investing" is the million pounds they spent asking an illegal asylum seeker to return home.
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Nick, your shirt appears spun from crimson cloth today,
The public knows that the Tories will cut spending on public services - it is what they do, no surprise there. It is sure ground for Cameron and why he occupies it very confidently knowing his party is four square behind him.
The difference now is that there are very few people left (even in the government)who do not understand that whoever wins the next election will have to make cuts in public spending/investment from current levels which are unsustainable.
Very few also fail to understand precisely why these will be required and that the effects will likely impact everyone either by loss of services we rely on or by having to pay more taxes (or most likely both).
What is unclear from all the parties - even more so after the reported delay to the spending review - is precisely what aspects of public spending are not priorities for them and therefore where the cuts will fall.
A clear start to identifying areas where spending will fall is needed from all, to allow a debate and to enable the voters to decide which set of priorities we are most comfortable/least uncomfortable with.
At present a plague on both their houses for the dishonesty and deception they are continuing to promote as mature political 'debate'.
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Extra, read all about it... "In the kingdom of the blind etc" http://moralorder.mediumisthemess.com/ twenty twenty vision and all that...
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Yet remember if NO spending CUTs and massive fast debt repayment then they MUST be planning TAX rises. Last november emails hinting at 20% VAT were leaked and denyed.
Will I would guess that 20% VAT is being looked at very closely!
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#48 RobinJD
.......Never mind the government; the BBC needs to cut its cloth...........
Unfortunately the BBC cloth cutting doesn't appear to extend to covering the 2009 Glastonbury music festival with less than an alleged 405 staff members.
Robinson writes "Whoever correctly judges the public mood on this issue will hold the key to winning the next election"
Gordon Brown can attempt in whichever flawed way he pleases to judge the public mood, as evidenced by the recent European and local elections, the public have already voiced their opinion on a tired, inept, disingenuous and truly awful administration. Still, hide like a rhino' Brown blunders on, control freaking his way to, with luck, annihilation at the next General Election, that is supposing he can't engineer way of postponing it.
Cameron now needs to tell it how it is, cuts are inevitable, Brown never has and never will understand the notion that honesty is the best policy. Come to think of it, any policy from Labour would be a start.
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54. At 1:55pm on 29 Jun 2009, davidou1234 wrote:
David Cameron can go stick it!!! He is an absolute disgrace...Lets see how much they have been earning from their rich friends in business with their second jobs...David Cameron is going to start massive cuts...im a teacher and remember how bad it was with the tories last time. All he can do is make sick personal attacks on the primmininster disgusting. Listening to David Cameron sppeak I felt sick...knowing he is preparing to sack policemen, teachers, and other crucial staff. Why not sack Osborne...and give us a ll a break.
=============================================================
And you're a teacher? I doubt it given the manic writing above, but then maybe you're a product of labours 'education, education, education'
Perhaps you teach maths? If so, can you explain where the money gordon is going to 'invest' is coming from?
Also when did Cameron say he was going to cut policemen and teacher?
Or in this day of 'gordons doublespeak' doesn't it matter whether he said it or not, its just a convienient rumour for you to spread to protect 'no cuts - honest!' Brown.
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Governments have reduced tax income and large gifts to financial services companies. The government can either raise taxes or make cuts in governmental services. The unfortunate thing about governments is that bureauracies seem to hold a good deal of power and politicians are unable or unwilling to take them on in any meaningful manner. When cuts are proposed it is the bureauracies who offer up programs serving the poor and other projects that have a public interest and not the programs that are wasteful and inefficient or unnecessary. The public becomes outraged at the list of programs offered and everyone moves on as if they have dealt with the matter. The post-war governmental agencies are out of line with both public need and organizational structure. Remember how the Russian bureaucrats kept saying that eveything was fine even as the system collasped arond them. That was nothing peculiar to the Russians, it is more a reflection of the nature of bureacracies. Bureauracies have become a major employement center and have been the foundation of the middle class and therefore almost impossible to reduce in any meaningful way. Cross-purposes and redundancy keeps everyone busy while nothing important gets done.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#38
You mistake me for someone who either cares about politicians having second jobs or at the very least would try to defend MPs for having them. I don't, and I won't.
By the way, though, I think you'll find they have to declare their outside interests at the very least.
Clearly, however, you believe that we're all much better off in the hands of a career politician like the Crashmeister, someone without a single day's private sector, business experience (I don't think TV journalism really counts, do you?). After all, that's gone so well, hasn't it?
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Davidou1234 - So glad i'm not taught by you as you seem so angry an ill informed. Cuts are inevitable, face the facts. Gordie has ballsed up big time and EVERYONE is now going to have to pay for it no matter who the next Goverment is.
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51 crowed
Very true.
labour have nothing to lose. If they spend, spend, spend they will do what Brown says they are doing.
But Brown doesn't care, in the slightest, what happens to the UK. He will be long gone into the Lords (heaven forbid he ever become a teacher).
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29. At 1:27pm on 29 Jun 2009, stanilic wrote:
I am not clear as to the difference between an efficiency saving and a spending cut but no doubt someone will be able to hector me out of that view.
=========================
my take on it,
An efficiency saving is when you provide precisely the same service as before but at a reduced cost i.e. more efficiently.
A spending cut is when you deliberately decide not to provide a service to save the money i.e. cuts.
Political parties of all hues consistently try to muddle this basic distinction by reducing the level of service and sell this as an efficiency saving.
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I now know why our education system is in such a mess. Think about it. You're a teacher, you make £25,000 ( I guess) but owe £10m. Do you keep spending or try to pay off your debt? The problem is most people these days would just keep spending and ignore the consequences.
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PS Davidou1234 - how come you're posting if your a teacher? shouldn't you be working or something? Or you on a "training day"? Just in case you ask I'm not working as I lost my job thanks to Gordon's great work in saving British manufacturing.
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I have especially registered just to be able to comment. This posting goes way beyond the expected BBC/Nick apologia for Labour. Absolutely disgraceful.
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#54
You're a teacher? Judging by the spelling and punctuation in your post, I assume you're an English teacher in one of those shiny new City Academies. So all the 'investment' of the last twelve years has improved the education system to the point where teachers have nothing better to do at 1.55pm on a Monday afternoon than post blogs.
That's money well spent then.
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There are a number of attacking posts in respect of Tories having second jobs. But what about the 40+ Labour MPs who have second jobs?
There's one who earns approx £120k more than his MP's salary - Gordon Brown. Cabinet Ministers earn a total of c£140k I believe. Very lucrative second jobs that take a lot of time and mean they cannot serve their constituents. When was the last time Brown held a proper surgery in his constituency?
So Ministers are even worse at it than the Tory frontbenchers.
The above facts should silence some
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Nick,
This is a dreadful post from you even by your own standards.
Why aren't you reporting the new policy vision of "Mr 15 percent" ???
As for "judging the public mood" Well with the 10p tax band abolition, proposed VED increase, the Gurkhas, Damien McBride, Iraq Inquiry in private etc I'm afraid Mr 15 percent's track record of judging the public mood is not very good.
And from this post, yours isn't any better.
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It not about cuts vs no cuts it is about which party will make the 'kindest' cuts. Which party will favour its own? This of course depends on whether one is part of 'its own' or not!
The cuts or no cuts situation is really no different from any election even when expenditure is rising.
The question arises: Is Brown's Labour party to the left or the right of Cameron's Tory party? Or are they identical? (David Brown vs Gordon Cameron! Any thoughts!?
Oh and by the way, the 'answer' cannot be based upon what they say now, but on the way that they generally act or have generally acted (see Margaret Thatcher or/and Kier Hardy!!!)
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This is starting to go against all rational thinking now. We have a Government trying to present the picture of the ability to spend against all sensible reports from the IMF, the OECD and every organisation which deals with fiscal policy. It is now time for the media to present the true picture that the Government is in fact telling untruths to the electorate.
The OECD proved this morning that Darlings figures are completely wrong and they have downgraded our growth to shrinking by 4.3. Even if the recession ended now we still have to deal with debt and the period of stagnation I believe will follow. The only fiscal tool the Government have left is quantitative easing, I can see us having to do a good deal more of this, which is very dangerous indeed for our economy, if the Government continue spending at present levels.
It is now imperative that the Government come clean over the true state of the economy and present a plan for where cuts will be, this needs to be forced out of them sooner rather than later in my opinion.
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Just how old are you davidou1234?
Twelve?
The OECD has again said that the country is in deep doo doo and will remain so at least until 2010.
Secret Skivver , I too have wondered that , a bit like a foul in snooker where you can insist the fouler plays the shot.
Sadly, it is far too serious for that.
I am astonished at the tone set generally by this public and impartial broadcaster.
Radio 4 described the police action at the G20 " riots" Now I viewed NO riot, I saw a demonstration which I believe is still legal in this country and which was peaceful viewed from where I stood.
To be fair the broadcaster did then change to referring to the
" demonstration" by which time the damage is already done.
Should you want a master class in spinning , I give you the BBC.
They of course need to be masters of spin given the amount of our money they waste.
400 BBC folk at Glastonbury! Having saturated the screens and airwaves with that gig and the demise of Michael Jackson ( not even finished doing that on the news yet) perhaps they genuinely needed 400.
Add to that a wee fat Scot who found some sort of major comparison twixt Texas and Scotland in the making of a documentary about independence, so took himself off for a jolly at our expense, there are indeed questions to be answered on how the BBC is funded.
I will vote for the party who revokes the licence fee!
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The Cameron honesty campaign reminds me of this great quote:
"If it falls to me to start a fight to cut out the cancer of bent and twisted journalism in our country with the simple sword of truth and the trusty shield of British fair play, so be it. I am ready for the fight. The fight against falsehood and those who peddle it. My fight begins today. Thank you and good afternoon."
The author - why Jonathan Aitken of course, a cabinet minister under the last tory government launching his campaign against the Guardian and World in Acton which led to him receiving an 18 month jail sentence for perjury, i.e. lying. Aitken's early release meant that his prison sentence avoided overlapping with that of Jeffrey Archer, deputy chairman of the Conservative Party under the last tory government. Archer was convicted of perverting the course of justice, i.e. lying. Of course Archer got out well before Conrad Black, a tory peer under the present government was sentenced to six and a half years for fraud (lying) and misstatements (lying). I can't be bothered to list the tory liars who didn't go to prison, though tory minister Neil Hamilton is worth a mention as he did go bankrupt when he lost his libel action over cash for questions because the jury found that he had been lying. He is also interesting because David Willetts, a member of the current shadow cabinet, had to resign from the government because he had 'dissembled', i.e. lied to the inquiry.
Let's not pretend that tories don't lie!
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36. At 1:33pm on 29 Jun 2009, ch21ss wrote:
Gordon Brown is so dishonest, the next thing you know he will be cycling in to work claiming to be green, even though he is being followed by a couple of cars all the way.
TOo late- David Cameron's already done that.
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#72
Obangobang
Either you didn't understand the point I was making or chose to ignore it. I don't particularly care whether MPs have second jobs or not - my point was that being happy to have a second job when you could keep the amount you earned and the amount of time you spent on it secret, then ditching the job when you have to publish these things is fundamentally dishonest.
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Nick,
I see the Treasury are now denying that any decision has been made vis-à-vis the Comprehensive Spending Review. So who is telling the truth the Chancellor or our de facto Deputy Prime Minister, Lord Mandelson?
Treasury spokesman: "The Chancellor makes the decisions, no matter what Peter Mandelson says, and no decisions have been made." [Hat-tip: Paul Waugh]
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/
Given the topic of your last post public spending it seems strange that you have not chosen to highlight this little spat in GVN?
Furthermore, when you report on the Tory cuts vs. Labour Investment row, why don't you mention that almost every single respected political commentator and economic forecaster and institution, from both left and right, believe that Labour will have to cut public spending!
[In fact, to you Brown apologists out there - I challenge you to name one serious independent body that supports Browns analogy (and no you cant say the BBC)]
Even the bloggers at Labour Home, have accepted that Public Spending cuts are inevitable whoever wins the election.
http://www.labourhome.org/forum/?p=6100
I know you need to be impartial Nick but does that still apply when a PM is claiming that black is white? Surely the BBC also has a duty to expose a politician (even a PM) when he is trying to take the country for fools. So please Nick, start reporting Browns claims in their proper context i.e. Gordon Brown claims that public spending will not be cut.however this is refuted not just both opposition parties, but also the vast majority of international commentators.. Without this context, you give Browns argument a credibility that it does not deserve.
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Nick, you used to be good and relatively impartial when Tony Blair was the gaffer.
Since Brown was crowned I'm afraid it's been all too obvious where your political affiliations lie.
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Is it just my imagination, or is the inclusion of the words "I'm a teacher..." in a posting always surrounded by hysterical prose constructed in appalling English?
Gawd 'elp us.
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I hear that Brown already has the outline for his Uni course drafted for next year.
'How to destroy the 4th largest economy in 12 years'
(By the man who masterminded it all)
It won't take three years you can cover it in 3 seconds and in 3 words
SPEND SPEND SPEND
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33 secretSkivver
I wonder how the markets would react if the Conservatives announced that they were going to sit the next election out and let Labour carry on ? I suspect that the panic would make the 1929 Wall Street Crash look like a picnic
............................
What an interesting thought. If it weren't for the fact that the country would then go into complete meltdown, and end up as a third world nation, I imagine the idea must have a certain appeal to Cameron.
54 and 56 davidou1234
If it wasn't for the fact that you have been fairly consistent with your comments over a number of blogs, I would have believed that you were joking and just made the comments you do to play devils advocate given the overwhelming condemnation of the Government and the members thereof from the other commentators
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Let's start a small poll on who has captured the public mood right now. Does the public think that there must be cuts in public spending or alternatively rises in direct and indirect taxes?
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RE 35. heskethpark
"Labour may be using weasle words, but any cuts will be as minimal as possible under Labour whereas Cameron and Osborne will go to it with relish."
You should be a Labour party spin doctor. You are most of the way to a genuinely good party line there. Start with a direct admission that public spending cuts are inevitable, and then contrast heartless, Tory slash and burn tactics with measured, compassionate Labour party pruning. Who knows, it could even work. The only problem is that your party leader has already said repeatedly that there will be no cuts. None. Public spending under Labour will rise and rise forever. So in order to use your admittedly good idea, you have to start by conceding that Brown is blatantly lying. Tough one that.
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What a lot of balderdash. I put it down to the intense heat.
Joe the Plumber (!) is not really interested in cuts. He is only interested in what affects him and IF he votes he probably has deserted Labour anyway due to his neighbourhood and the job situation being altered unacceptably to HIM.
Those who DO vote are usually the likes of me and I vote Conservative!
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davidou @ 54 and 56:
For one who professes to be a teacher the standard of your spelling is atrocious.
I also used to be teacher although I am now retired and also have no fond memories of Thatcher but this is the here and now and Gordon Brown is the biggest disgrace of the lot. He either wraps up his policies in sheep's clothing or blatantly fibs in a desperate attempt to cling onto power. David Cameron is not in power and so bears no responsibility for our present feeble position.
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#54
And you're a teacher??..................God help our kids!!
Or perhaps you're really a banker? You seem to have the financial nous of Nick Leeson.
Let's face facts. Brown has overspent, wasted and blundered on for personal ambition. Yes he has spent more than ever before and at the what cost. Massive personal and national debt, inefficient public owned services, no pensions to speak of, (except for the Public Workers), queue jumping by illegals on housing lists, (despite Government denials), etc, etc, etc.
Cameron should just come out and be honest - something Brown and Mandelson have never been.
By the way, in all your envious rantings please look at the Labour and Conservative front-benches. One of these MPs owns seven houses. Which party do you think he belongs to?
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59. At 2:02pm on 29 Jun 2009, ghostworld wrote:
54. At 1:55pm on 29 Jun 2009, davidou1234 wrote:
David Cameron can go stick it!!! He is an absolute disgrace...Lets see how much they have been earning from their rich friends in business with their second jobs...David Cameron is going to start massive cuts...im a teacher and remember how bad it was with the tories last time. All he can do is make sick personal attacks on the primmininster disgusting. Listening to David Cameron sppeak I felt sick...knowing he is preparing to sack policemen, teachers, and other crucial staff. Why not sack Osborne...and give us a ll a break.
You're not an English Teacher I hope!
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Finally.... one of them gets part of it! Cuts are coming --- only a miracle can prevent them!
Yes there will be riots and worse on the streets unless;
1). Fraudulent MPs are seen to dealt with by the laws that govern everyone in the land!
2). The cost and number of MPs, Lords and the 'Establishment' is SEEN to be cut first!
3). Those who can take the cuts best, feel them first!
4). All expensive 'initiatives' with little impact on the most vulnerable are cut first!
5). The citizens of this country are seen to have an important role in deciding where and how far cuts will go!
6). There is no 'spin', 'skulduggery' and 'self serving' from any MP and/or 'establishment' figure!
(Personal note!) Have just read above list and need to make one more comment ---
7). All pigs fully fuelled and ready for take-off!
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54. At 1:55pm on 29 Jun 2009, davidou1234 wrote:
David Cameron can go stick it!!! He is an absolute disgrace...Lets see how much they have been earning from their rich friends in business with their second jobs...David Cameron is going to start massive cuts...im a teacher and remember how bad it was with the tories last time. All he can do is make sick personal attacks on the primmininster disgusting. Listening to David Cameron sppeak I felt sick...knowing he is preparing to sack policemen, teachers, and other crucial staff. Why not sack Osborne...and give us a ll a break.
--------------
Oh dear god, think of the children.
Won't someone please think of the children.
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I can't understand why Cameron failed to use the word " liar ", because that is what Brown and his sychophantic self seeking crew are, blatant liars. Brown's vision for Britain is a Britain totally bankrupt, totally dependent on Europe , filled with a growing underclass of non working semi criminals breeding feral children ready to take their place on the benefits ladder. His promise of houses for local people is an insult to the intelligence of honest working people who cannot get council housing because the benefit army, assylum seekers, immigrants and drug addicts get priority on the housing lists. Brown's vision is a twisted nightmare cocnceived by a man of little principle who will stoop to any level to hang on to the power he has abused and misused.
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Brown's warped and dellusional musings further agitate the mainstream population by the day. His complete and utter dishonesty and disdain for the electorate is beyond contempt.....and still the spineless, milk-sop journos at the BBC try to talk-up him and his crazy ideas. We surely cannot take another year of this madness.
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#87
How can I make myself more clear?
I don't care. I couldn't care less. Frankly, I don't give a damn.
Is that any easier to understand?
Set against the dishonesty of the government over the last twelve years, it's pretty small beer, IMO.
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#93:
Both because we have to face the music at some time!
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Well, Nick, you seemed to have misjudged the public mood with this one. I'm glad to see that I am not the only person (by far!) who was disappointed with the slant of this blog. As someone who voted for Labour at the last election, I feel EXTREMELY let down by this government, and do not believe, for one second, the 'tory cuts, labour increases' lies. Sorry, spin. Cameron is only being honest. Brown is building up hope and expectations knowing that he won't have to deliver. He is not acting in Britains best interests, merely his own. I find this utterly unforgivable, and if the Labour party want to restore any credence they must get rid of Brown before the election. The fact that they won't shows how corrupt, cowardly and self-serving the party has become.
It seems clear that Labour has no chance at all of winning the next GE. As such, much like the Lib Dems, they can make claims and promises that they know they will not have to keep. My fear is that the labour govt is deliberately making things worse for the country, knowing that the Conservative government will have to make cuts AND probably tax increases. This will inevitably make them unpopular (as Cameron accepts) perhaps to the point where the fickle public are so angry that they will not be able to bring themslves to vote Tory again. Concede the next GE, but win the following three.
As such, I half hope Labour do win so that the full extent of the mess we are in comes out on their watch, with no one else to blame.
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Be so Oh! so very careful what you wish for! Memories are Oh so short or maybe some people are just far too young to remember the Thatcher years and what she DIDN't do for ordinary men and women. It was the birth of NIMBY's, Yuppies, DINky's, that awful idea of trickle down, which was a total scam and which only the top tier benefitted from. It was the birth of obscene salaries for those who contributed nothing to the greater good, silly celebrities, again receiving ridiculous amounts of money for doing nothing. The gap between rich and poor just got wider. They didn't have cuts in spending, they just didn't invest in schools, hospitals, roads & rail and this time it could be much, much worse because of the chaos created in the City, by those who undoubtably are Tory voters.
I am not a Labour voter but I certainly will not be voting for Cameron, they carry too much baggage from the past Tory Government and if you honestly believe that a shadow cabinet, where the vast majority are Eton educated, either knows or cares about most of us, then I think you will be sadly mistaken. Deep down they are the same animal, the outer coat might look softer and fluffier but inside they are the same beast!!
You will be living in cloud cuckoo land if you believe the rhetoric because we all got sucked in by Mrs T when she wanted to become PM with all that rubbish with her shopping basket!!! She changed this Country for ever and most certainly not for the better. She created a society that only thinks about 'what's in it for me', vast swathes were disinfranchised. Its not the idle rich who need looking after, its the idle young, unemployed who will either become radicalised or criminalised. We were told to be entreprenureal, which meant those who were brash enough to cheat the system either legally or otherwise made a fortune. In the recession, on the Tory watch we had double digit inflation, double digit interest rates, some 4 million unemployed and Tebbit told us to 'get on yer bike'.
I had hoped for a peaceful revolution and real radical change would come out of the crisis of the past two years but sadly people will follow like leemings and vote Labour out, thinking they will be better off under a Tory Government.
Sadly I see no Statesman in the whole of Parliament. No-one that really gives me confidence, no-one who has vision, without self interest. No-one who can see the wider picture beyond petty politics.
The World faces pushing the self destruct button with climate change and yet we all get totally upset about a Duck House What the MP's did on expenses is inexcusable but compared to what those in the City did its rather pathetic the media have been so obsessed but haven't really done anything positive to ensure we have real change and only persuading all of us just to swap one bad egg for another!
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'It is also a glimpse of what Labour has been hoping for. They are counting on the fact that the public will come to associate cuts and their consequences with the Conservative party.'
As opposed to trying to work towards fixing the economic problems of this country their energies are focused on just political advantage and effectively smearing the opposition ..
when in fact they seem to be telling the truth - cuts will be needed and/or tax rises
Let me make it quite plain and if Cameron won't say it I will - this government is lying if it says there will be no cuts and the longer it it persists in telling that lie then the lesser the chance of me voting for them
..and just to make it also clear - I voted for Labour in 1997 for the first time because I really thought they had changed to match their compassion with realistic economics
Well the evidence is that they have not and Brown has brought this country to a perilous state - and seems intent on bashing on regardless
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The "riots on the streets" that have been threatening for sometime have nothing to do with public spending. They have everything to do with a ruling class that has shown contempt for the ordinary person for a very long time; in other words the very kind of person that an old-Etonian like Mr Cameron personifies. I think he should get out more - ten o'clock at night and alone on the Council estate near me would be a great place to start - and finish.
No one will forget the kicking Thatcher's Government gave to the ordinary person - ever. I have no love for New Labour but Cameron? Do me a favour.
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#90 and 96:
Sorry Zoot. Didn't see your earlier posting when I wrote 96 but how right you are!
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85. Minnsy
I agree- It's strange that many Tories seem to have short memory spans, accusing Labour of Lies and Spin when they're just as (if not More) guilty.
As for David Cameron's speech, I'm sorry, but is it really that hard to tell the public about what your policies are?
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They remove other blogs for being imflanatory and liabalus etc
Yet we have no blog on the BBC expenses row and any blog is "off topic" and removed post-hast.
Yet this is the most outragoues abuse of licence payers money yet.
More bubbly for Bruce then ?
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Cuts have already started for the reserve forces.
Man Training days are being cut to 50 days a year.
Field Exercises are being dramtically cut, as is training for basic military skills.
They are only going to trained to MATT level 2 which means,
1. They are no longer going to be able to fire on live rangers, onlt go through thier weapon handling tests.
2. They no are not required to have thier fitness training Combat Fitness Test, which currently stands at 8 miles forced march in 2 hours carrying 25kg.
3. No more Navigation Training.
4. No more Chemical Biological Radioactive, Nuclear Training.
Which means that no soldier from the TA when mobilised will have to prove their is fit to fight. Until he goes through his or her pre operational training course.
The reason?
So the MOD can save 4.7 million on reserve forces.
What did Brown pledge Zimbabwe last week 5 million.
What does that mean to the Army and the impetus for people volunteering to the Countries reserve forces? Well it means 1/4 of our army has had a pay cut, and trainig facilites dramatically reduced.
Remember Nearly 10 thousand reservists were mobilised in early 2003. That does not include TA soldiers mobilised after The war Phase in Iraq and now on operations in Afghanistan.
Their reward? Cuts, so don't worry about what Cameron is going to do. Brown is already doing it.
Makes you think doesn't it about lying and priorities and where political gains lie when there is a camera on the PM.
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With all the derogatory comments aimed at davidou on here I suggest he retreats with his tail between his legs and is more careful with his contributions in future!
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davidou1234
I was disgusted by your rants but I've read your pevious posts. You are not a teacher, you are a comedian and very funny!! Keep it up.
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85
Unfortunately a fairly typical newlabradour approach. When in doubt, attempt to misdirect. Point out the flaws in the other side, rather than try to address the flaws in your own, and stick to a "well the alternative isn't any better" defence.
Deary me, its all so desperate.
An observant personage would note that the ministers you mention have all been dismissed long since, whereas Brown has just been actively kept in the top spot in the Labour party. A decision, note, made by the PLP on a more or less unanimous basis.
I think you just need to accept that noone is claiming joining the Tory party immediately absolves people of human faults. You will find bad apples in all walks of life, from kindergarten teachers to rocket scientists. Laying the human faults of dismissed ministers at the door of a political party is inappropriate and borderline insane. The issue with Gordon is that he is being actively kept in place, and is misleading the country about the steps that will have to be taken under the next government. This is not a case where his personal greed is just disagreeable, but it is a course that could burden the entire country. So please don't attempt to dissemble by comparing him to some bad elements from the other side, you ought to be above such tactics.
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Nick - could you post an article on your blog explaining your own political persuasion?
Many thanks, Saint.
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Futher to my rant, think of this as an irony.
Armed Forces day, most locations had a TA unit turning up as a mandatory day to interact with the public, which in many cases would eat up two and a half days out of their reduced 50 days allocation to make the governments new day a success......
I guess it's all in the planning.
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Message 75 Whistling_Neil
That is I suppose a reasonable definition as to the difference between any `efficiency saving' and a `spending cut'.
The whole matter is what you do with the money saved? Do you allow it to feed back into the broader economy as a tax reduction, do you use it to improve other public services, do you use it to cut the public deficit or do you use it to employ a relative, friend or associate.
My concern is that at the moment there is an obvious GBP 49 billion gap in government budgets but no sign as to where this is to be saved. A training agency which our business uses has recently had to initiate cuts which came from out of nowhere: and yes, jobs were lost.
This looked very much like a cut to me. I fear that the efficiency savings are nothing more than a stealth way of imposing spending cuts.
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# 88 ngodinhdiem - Bravo, I shall repeat what you have said, since it is worth repeating:
"I know you need to be impartial Nick but does that still apply when a PM is claiming that black is white? Surely the BBC also has a duty to expose a politician (even a PM) when he is trying to take the country for fools. So please Nick, start reporting Browns claims in their proper context i.e. Gordon Brown claims that public spending will not be cut.however this is refuted not just both opposition parties, but also the vast majority of international commentators.. Without this context, you give Browns argument a credibility that it does not deserve."
There is no point Nick, trying to appear "impartial", since we do not have a debate between two comparable positions viz: "increased investment" versus "cuts". What we have is a debate between "barefaced lies" and "cuts". Why not say it like it is?
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"Whoever correctly judges the public mood on this issue will hold the key to winning the next election."
Good job you are not running for office then, Nick
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In the song 'Working Class Hero', the late John Lennon brutally delineated the plight of working people.
I cannot repeat the most (in)famous line from that song here because it will be censored for containing a swear-word but most of you probably know what it is anyway.
However, I have sometimes pondered these lyrics and wondered what Lennon was getting at.
Now there is a glimmer of understanding, at least in a political context.
If you continue to vote in a tribal way i.e. either Labour or Tory, then you are effectively acting to perpetuate the serfdom to which Lennon refers in the song.
Only by breaking out of this two-party duopoly/political straight-jacket can you hope to be 'free', by allowing more political choice to flourish.
'If you want to be a hero, well, just follow me'.
PS. And a long way further down the political road, you may imagine there's no country, which indeed is the case for the English just now, albeit unintentionally.
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Comment 35 : heskethpark
"Predicting riots when a Tory Government is in power is not difficult. It's bound to happen. Because most of us know that it is in the Tory DNA to want to make cuts to public services, whether the economy is in dire straits or not. Labour may be using weasle words, but any cuts will be as minimal as possible under Labour whereas Cameron and Osborne will go to it with relish. Cutting and undermining public services and public service workers is what being a Tory is all about."
Is this what you really believe? Or is it just desperate rhetoric to avoid having to accept that Labour has got it wrong?
You know, I really believe this is what Gordon Brown thinks. And it's getting something like this so fundamentally wrong that should have prevented him from ever climbing up the ladder of British politics. But it didn't, and look what the result is. Blair had his ridiculous certainties as well, but at least he didn't believe that everyone who opposed him was a relative of Satan.
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"Riots on the streets".
Strikingly similar to Enoch Powell's 'blood on the streets', is it not? Simply remove the politically incorrect race element and you are back to fear tactics. Except in those days, we were no so used to spin, manipulation and news management. Powell was wrong in the event (thank goodness) but he was a statesman and serious people took him seriously.
Cameron is a politician and we should take him with the same huge grain of salt as the media 'experts' who advise him. Given the opportunity, he may not disappoint. He has considerable potential. For now, we would be well advised to treat this for what it is - electioneering - and perhaps ask why his opponents don't stop playing fast and loose with the public spending reality, come clean on the figures and go to the country rather than clinging to power like so many lemmings in denial of the cliff ahead.
"The clock is ticking hour by hour,
The clock will tick forever.
But if you stop the bloody clock,
It won't hold up the weather". (Louis MacNeice).
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Nick, truth is the new spin.
You better get used to it. And fast.
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98. Falmouth Boy. Some teacher you are with grammar and spelling like that!
All I would say to you is most teachers, etc. voted this shower in in the first place so it's your own fault what's happened. What a lot of silly billies.
And if, as your name suggests, you do live in Falmouth then you need to get out a bit and come and look and speak to the rest of this country. I can tell you Cornwall and Devon, beautiful as they are, are actually quite segretated from the horrors we are enduring in the rest of the country due to the silly stupid people who voted Labour in.
Hang your head in shame!
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Nick you say:
'Whoever correctly judges the public mood on this issue will hold the key to winning the next election'
Well it certainly looks like Duff Gordon is well ahead of the curve:
public spending poll
YouGov survey showing voters could support 10% public spending cuts is bad news for Duffs election strategy.
Nick whatever you get paid by the BBC its not enough! After all you are attempting the impossible - trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear. You really deserve more fore pushing the drivel you are peddling.
NuLabour just don't get it. If millions of people surrounded parliament and shouted in one voice what they wanted, they still wouldn't get it.
Roll On 2010 - Times running out for the NuLabour Clowns.
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Still waiting for bbc reporters to ask Brown what he thinks of the OECD's estimate for the UK's structural budget deficit, the deficit the UK will record after recovery, the budget deficit that not suffers from the downturn. That budget deficit wil be around 7.2% of GDP, or 100 billion pounds or 4000 pounds per worker in the private sector, estimates the OECD.
Interesting post on The Times website today re Mandelson's quotes that the efficiency review will not happen and that the government will not publish any new spending and revenue intentions before the next election (so election prior to pre-budget times, i.e. before mid november?) because no one can see what economic growth will be in 2001. That post said that it's interesting that labour claims the tories can not run the economy while labour does not know what the economy is doing in the first place.
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Comment 75 : Whistling Neil
"An efficiency saving is when you provide precisely the same service as before but at a reduced cost i.e. more efficiently."
Excuse me if I'm being dim, but what is the public sector doing spending other people's money providing a service that could be provided less expensively by doing it differently? When they're operating with limited resources, wouldn't you have thought that every activity should already be operating at peak cost efficiency?
I appreciate that there will be occasions where technology improvements allow savings to be made. Is this what the government is talking about? Or are they saying that some areas of the public sector are operating inefficiently. Don't you think we should be told?
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Nick,
Given that the BBC has ignored (possibly intentionally) the OECD's call for the government to reduce spending to cut the deficit, *you* may well be surprised when there are riots on the streets. Unfortunately, the private sector, which has to pay for bloated BBC salaries, is experiencing so much pain that we will find it unsurprising when there are riots. Given the expenses that MPs and BBC fat cats get away with, one can see the course of the riot - from Parliament to the BBC's HQ.
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The public associates cuts with the Tory party, in large part, because that is what the BBC tells them. The monstrous debt this country is already in (and worsening every minute) has been helped every single penny along the way by Robinson and the pro Nu-Labour BBC. I don't know why Brown, the BBC, Robinson and Nu-Labour champion borrowing immense amounts of money (that will take generations to pay off) as some sort of help to the hard-working people of this country. Maybe it is because they are all feathering their own nests with it? The rest of us who don't benefit in any way should, quite rightly, be very annoyed.
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PortcullisGate #91
Much as I agree with your post let's get one thing straight here. It has taken Brown only 9 years to destroy the 4th largest economy in the world. For the first 3, from 1997 to 2000, he followed Ken Clarke's spending plans and the public sector borrowing requirement actually becamse a surplus by 2000.
Only then was the spending spigot turned on.
And how!!
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The whole question of increasing taxes simply has no bearing on the problems. No-one surely is really so bad at maths that they think that tax increases will do much. The much vaunted 50% top rate will reduce the deficit next year by less than 3%. Taxes have been raised in every conceivable way over the last 12 years and where has that got us?
We need to make cuts, pure and simple and anyone who thinks otherwise is economically illiterate.
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The real news today is that labour seems to prepare for elections this autumn.
Mandelson today has said that labour will not announce any new spending and revenue targets before the next elections while the efficiency review has been postponed as well. The only way this really helps labour to prevent having to give an update on the uk's dire public finances is when there is an election prior to the pre-budget scheduled late november/early december, or if the pre-budget gets abolisged as well (als on grounds that there is no point budgetting given the low economic visibility).
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#85 greatHayemaker
I would agree that the focus on the number of tories imprisoned / sacked etc. because of lies would be merely a distraction if Cameron were not running a campaign of 'tory honesty v labour lies'. We don't know how honest the tories would be in government, but we do know how honest they were (or rather were not). This is no different from what you will claim is another distraction. I had absolutely no interest in the sex life of John Major. His affair with Edwina Currie would have remained their own business for a lifetime if it was not for the fact that he ran his premiership on a back to basics / family values ticket. When you stoop to that level of hypocrisy, you deserve criticism. Cameron is acting no differently.
Anyway, if you wish to judge the current tory party (and ignore the fact that Willetts is a current member of the shadow cabinet) how about the country's most senior tory politician. I seem to recall that Boris Johnson was sacked from the shadow cabinet. What was his offence again. I'll leave it to the Times headline to remind you: 'Boris Johnson sacked for lying over affair.'
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Riots in the streets? If I thought it would help rid us of the most dishonest incompetent excuse for a government ever to darken this country I'd be there in a heartbeat
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lol @ the teacher!!!!
I see the labour years of throwing money at education, edukation, edukayshyun have borne fruit...
If this is the standard of a teacher then what hope for the feral, benefit dependent little chavs that now infest many parts of this country?
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By the way, this weekend the bbc has provided a prime example why cutting public spending does not automatically imply fewer or lower quality services. The bbc sent 400 staff to glastonbury, what a waste! Reminds me of once listening to five live on a saturday at thebeginning of the football season and they had 3 guest commentators for one of the league games that early in the season. Ok, I recall it was a man united game, but having 4 reporters out there was O.T.T. as well, ACTUALLY, BASICALLY, ESSENTIALLY.
Ah well, I guess it all fits the pattern of the country with more turnstile guards in train and tube stations than any of the previously communist countries that I have visited (5 including Russia).
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Ghostie
"We are dealing with the topic of Labour denial do not try and deflect it by bringing the tories into the conversation"
You might be old chap but the blog is about Cameron's scaremongering over riots.
"Anyway lets talk facts and opinion. Are you saying that Labour will NOT make any cuts whatsoever ? over to you to say otherwise"
You still don't seem able to grasp the distinction - of course I cannot state that Labour will not make any cuts, I might have an opinion on it, which is: more than likely.
I have another opinion too which is that there is precious little difference between Cameron's Tories and Blair / Brown's New Labour. They are both essentially haggling over the 'centre ground' without a decent radical policy between them.
A third opinion is that those of you ganging up on the teacher because of two or three grammatical / spelling errors are really quite pathetic.
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Nick
"Whoever correctly judges the public mood on this issue will hold the key to winning the next election."
That rules Brown out then, a more out of touch Prime Minister we have not had for a long time.
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Re: 123
"The clock is ticking hour by hour,
The clock will tick forever. . . "
"The glass is falling hour by hour,
The glass will fall forever.
Sincere apologies.
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Interesting comments about the election timetable. My theory is that Brown has been pressured into postponing the election until after the Irish have voted yes to the dreaded Lisbon Treaty. He will then have matched his economic performance with his constitutional wreckage of the country.
At that point his work will be done and he will retire to some cushy Euro job
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Nick, dearest.
Why was it necessary for the BBC to send your colleague Emily Maitlis over to the States to cover Jackson's death? There are several reporters and journalists already out there, are there not? I saw some bloke from the Beeb reporting live only to be followed shortly thereafter by Maitlis, saying pretty much the same thing.
It's one small example of how we've come to accept as normal the profligacy of this government and all its subsidiaries. The anti-Cameron, anti-Eton ranters will accept being amongst the highest taxed in Europe while receiving below par education for their kids and catching viruses from over-administered hospitals.
If Pavlov was alive today he'd feel very pleased with himself. I'd like to think that if I do not vote Tory come election time it will be due to someone presenting a better arguement, not just because I enjoy being sh*fted.
btw Nick has highlighted Brown's 'ambiguity' over spending and cuts in the past. It's just that he forgets now and again.
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Nick it certainly appears that last week was a good week for NuLabour to bury bad news. One such item was a report from the ONS regarding child deprivation:
One in six children live in jobless households
A study, released last week by the Office for National Statistics, also shows that 22 per cent of British children live in low income households.
The UK average for children in jobless households is 15.3 per cent, but this rises to almost a quarter in London and 18 per cent in Wales, the North East, the North West and the West Midlands.
After 12 years of NuLabour it does not look good!
Nick it is about time you concentrated your mind on real world situations rather than the blinkered partisan drivel that you are currently churning out!
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I don't understand all this 'the Tories will cut' guff 'cos that's what they always do'. I recall the Major years very well and the fact that investment in public services grew - and they were real increases too.
Had the Tories won the 1997 election and therefore had all the benefit of booming tax receipts, does Brown and his cronies seriously think they would have cut investment and spending. GET REAL
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48. At 1:43pm on 29 Jun 2009, RobinJD wrote:
Judge the public mood? Gordon Brown? Is the BBC trying to take us for fools as well as the prime minister?
The BBC should put itself up first for cuts in expenditure and then se if all those top jobs suddenly become vacant because they are now uncompetitve with the private sector... WHo exactly are these people going to work for? No-one would have them. No one in the private sector has such a feather bedded deal as the BBC execs with theri chauffeur driven cars and bottles of champagne.
Can we have a discussion on here pleaes at the number of chauffeur driven cars the BBc is going to axe? You can start with the one I recently saw John Sergeant getting inot after a slap up dinner with Lord Hattersley. What did those two great minds decide that will save the planet?
Never mind the government; the BBC needs to cut its cloth.
Call an election and shut it down.
===
Another question to ask the BBC would be:
Why do we need to pay for 400 staff to cover the non-event that is the Glastonbury Festival? Surely not an effective use of the licence fee?
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142. At 4:15pm on 29 Jun 2009, TheBlameGame wrote:
Wife and I said just the same thing this morning.
Don't worry we'll pay for it.
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Carrying on in the current situation without major reform /cuts of the public sector is simply not sustainable and with ever increasing taxes the chance that the private sector will recover quick enough to support the ever increasing debt burden is unlikely.
There are two major options I would personally consider if I was Dictator General Brown are;
one is the opposite of what is likely to happen in reality and that is to radically cut taxes as well as half the expenditure on the public sector. The theory being you can delayer the public sector and bring it in line with a more efficient business model, cutting paper work and and getting rid of thousands of jobs, obviously not a popular move short term.
The idea of cutting taxes dramatically is to attract businesses and investment into the country, thus creating jobs to replace the public sector ones and vastly increasing our GDP to such an extent that the lower tax percentage would still take more money for the government than they can generate at a higher rate at present. You only need to take Brit insurance company as an example of how a company will simply shift abroad for a cheaper tax rate. Although this reform would take several years to actually work and cause possibly greater suffering and indeed increase debt further in the short term to help sustain the lower taxation, I truely believe in the long term it would work out.
My second option is a far more radical theory of essentially making the public sector run from monopoly money. While money makes the world go round and financial rules run the planet there is no reason we cannot revolutionise these rules, especially given the past years events. The idea being - aa the problem is global and every country it seems has a mountainous debt why not agree that certain services such as healthcare education etc etc which are fundamental be funded on essentially printed money (quantitive easing style) thus reducing the requirement for taxes at all which in turn will allow the private sector to flourish and greater wealth world round. Obviously the key issue to this would be controlling inflation and rogue states. It would probably require a budget per country controlled by world bank and granting each country a budgeted amount based on population and aimed at providing services not wages.
I appreciate both theorys are only rough ideas in my head but do think a more radical and less accountants based approach would be better for everyone at the moment.
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@laughinglefty
I'll tell you what's pathetic...
Weasel Labour apologists who deflect all criticism of this disgusting government with comments about the Tories.
Get it into your head that any damage wrought by the Tories is IN THE PAST, what we need to concern ourselves is the socialist idiots bankrupting the country NOW.
Currently this country is on the brink of being irretrievably damaged by a government who collectively would struggle to run a bath.
The Tories are now our only hope and Im not even sure that it is possible to repair the damage done by Labours latest attempt to destroy our country.
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Minnsy
Lies about their private lives are not the same as lies about policies.
I will defend to the death anyone who tells a lie to obscure an element of their private lies from the public. They should never be put in the position of either having to lie or have embarrassing facts that have absolutely nothing to do with their ability exposed to the public.
And Boris is a poor choice to pick on. He was elected by the people of London only, and is in a position to effect London only. He is not a minister who has an influence over policies for the UK as a whole. The people of London want him, despite any misdeeds in his personal life. They were aware of this, and chose him anyway. He is a bit of an oaf, but he is direct, and says what he thinks in relation to his public responsibilities (a bit too much so on occasion).
Not really a comparison to telling untruths to the public in an attempt to mislead them into voting for you again is it.
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Re-riots on the streets. Please send details of the rallying point; I'll be there, for sure. What other mechanism do we have these days? Brown and his gangsters have destroyed democracy, the economy and what little respect citizens ever had for our political class. I reckon it is now only a matter of time before the proletariat twig the looming socio-economic disaster that will shortly be the Brown legacy. Brown has done well (in his eyes) to deceive the British people thus far, but the truth will out, as ever. What a mess; what an unholy mess.
And still the Labour Party spins, lies, ducks and dives as if we're all total idiots. I have never experienced such a shocking state of affairs in British political and public life; it is shameful.
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131. At 3:50pm on 29 Jun 2009, Bluematter
of course you are correct should make for an even shorter course.
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54. At 1:55pm on 29 Jun 2009, davidou1234 wrote:
David Cameron can go stick it!!! He is an absolute disgrace...Lets see how much they have been earning from their rich friends in business with their second jobs...David Cameron is going to start massive cuts...im a teacher and remember how bad it was with the tories last time. All he can do is make sick personal attacks on the primmininster disgusting. Listening to David Cameron sppeak I felt sick...knowing he is preparing to sack policemen, teachers, and other crucial staff. Why not sack Osborne...and give us a ll a break.
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David, I sincerely hope you are not a teacher of English!
Yes, those nasty Tories with their second jobs, like David Blunkett, Patricia Hewitt, Charles Clarke, Alan Milburn, and Gordon Brown the author, oh hang on a minute.....
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19 obangobang
You ommitted Handsworth and Lozells !!
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#118 Stanilic
The gap in the finances is so large that real cuts are inevitable - it is the obviousness of this that is the root of the ridicule which El Gordo and the government are recieving for their dumb 'investment vs cuts' strategy.
Had El Gordo put a bit aside for a rainy day or not spent to the limits of the national credit card before the crash then maybe he would have a choice in whether to reinvest 'efficiency savings' or return to the taxpayer. He doesn't and continuing to pretend otherwise just adds to the ridicule.
The debate should be moving to what to cut and how to cut it (restrict/part fund or remove.
Just like business' now cutting back becuase the false boom meant they had more staff, sites and stocks than the real economy could support, HMG have to cut back to reflect the reduction in income.
Some cuts will be painful (sacred cows will need to be slain) but the debate needs to be had to ensure that we are presented with a clear choice.
There is a choice which a courageous PM would make - outline clearly where and why the cuts are to be made and then go to the polls on it.
Prior form says we will have to wait and listen to more spin and obfuscation from El Gordo and Mandy and they will do anything to avoid the debate.
As you noted, cuts are already happening but dressed up as efficiencies to asuage the PR wing of the government, this can only accelerate over the next year and beyond.
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138. At 4:04pm on 29 Jun 2009, Laughatthetories wrote:
Ghostie
"We are dealing with the topic of Labour denial do not try and deflect it by bringing the tories into the conversation"
You might be old chap but the blog is about Cameron's scaremongering over riots.
"Anyway lets talk facts and opinion. Are you saying that Labour will NOT make any cuts whatsoever ? over to you to say otherwise"
You still don't seem able to grasp the distinction - of course I cannot state that Labour will not make any cuts, I might have an opinion on it, which is: more than likely.
I have another opinion too which is that there is precious little difference between Cameron's Tories and Blair / Brown's New Labour. They are both essentially haggling over the 'centre ground' without a decent radical policy between them.
A third opinion is that those of you ganging up on the teacher because of two or three grammatical / spelling errors are really quite pathetic
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Your last part is ironic considering you are accusing me of not understanding the difference between tom dick and harry etc ...When frankly i fully understand.
Anyway as far as i can see, the main points of the last few blogs and many others is simply Labours denial that they will cut services etc etc ..It is all dressed up around another topic but mainly is the same topic just with different words.
Having said that i agree with your comments about not really being much difference between the parties. As Labour are in power and have been for 12 years now, obviously they will come in for close scrutiny and criticism and rightly so.
All people or rather " the genral public " want is for honesty from Gordy, it is horrendous that he thinks he can hoodwink us into voting for him by saying he is going to continue spending money we don't have and it further rubs salt into the wound when he then goes onto say he is not going to tell the truth until after we all jolly well vote him back in again.
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#138:
Oh come on laugh it's more than three mistakes and it's not just his spelling that rankles. It's his baseless, stupid rant against David Cameron.
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108. At 2:59pm on 29 Jun 2009, Cardboard_Cutout wrote:
The "riots on the streets" that have been threatening for sometime have nothing to do with public spending. They have everything to do with a ruling class that has shown contempt for the ordinary person for a very long time; in other words the very kind of person that an old-Etonian like Mr Cameron personifies. I think he should get out more - ten o'clock at night and alone on the Council estate near me would be a great place to start - and finish.
No one will forget the kicking Thatcher's Government gave to the ordinary person - ever. I have no love for New Labour but Cameron? Do me a favour.
===
Would he need to wear a stab vest like Harriet Harman did, walking in her own constituency, in the middle of the day, with a police escort?
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138. At 4:04pm on 29 Jun 2009, Laughatthetories wrote:
A third opinion is that those of you ganging up on the teacher because of two or three grammatical / spelling errors are really quite pathetic.
=======================================================================
I think you'll find that the 'teacher' was ganged up on simply because of the absolute nonsense that filled their post. The fact that they claimed to be a teacher yet couldn't string a sentence together hardly helped.
I know labour have downgraded the whole education system so that 'everyone wins', but a teacher should do better. If I came on here and claimed to be good at maths and then put up some sums that didn't add up I would expect absolute ridicule.
(Just in case - I don't claim to be able to spell... or write)
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#128ExcellenceFirst wrote:
Comment 75 : Whistling Neil
"Excuse me if I'm being dim, but what is the public sector doing spending other people's money providing a service that could be provided less expensively by doing it differently? "
=======================================
Not dim but deliberately understating your own understanding to ellict a specific response I suspect.
Nobody is perfect, not even the private sector. Most companies (in fact any good one) have programmes to capture efficiency savings every year. Some are from technology as you acknowledge but most are just from doing something differently to how it was previously.
Surely if you have been exposed to business you will be familiar with 6 sigma, Right first time, TQM or any of the other branded quality/efficiency systems companies employ to do this. The management consultancy business is basically built on the notion businesses are not optimally efficient.
Time and situations change so what was best practice previously may not be optimal today.
Government is just a very very large company in this context.
There is a large chunk of additional red tape and arcane practices which Governments have to deal with which makes them less efficient - a simple example is that publishing the MPs expenses claims will cost more than if it were a private company who don't need to do it, but we want this so it's OK. There are many other aspects of accountability which cost more than it would in a private sector company but which we expect/demand.
I would be heartily surprised if government was ever the most efficient example of a particular type of function - purchasing, admin etc.
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Fair enough Ghostie, honesty would be nice I agree, but one thing in this world that is a fact is that you won't get it from a politician, whatever party they support, with the sole exception of Tony Benn, of course.
I will eat my own forehead if Cameron isn't plotting something with this riots nonsense
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407 staff at Glastonbury. No wonder the BBC is so twitchy about cuts of unsustainable public expenditure. Your bosses are starting to think about the implications of their sycophancy as shown by letting Evan Davis and Simon Mayo loose recently. Time you caught up Nick.
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Spending cuts are happening here and now, it just that Liebour spinners lack the guts to say the word cuts. One of the paratroop regiments is in reality just an infantry regiment as the RAF do not have enough Hercules aircraft for the (a) the paras to qualify for their wings and (b) for qualified paras to make enough jumps per year to remain qualified.
What really amazes me, is that Liebour is supposed to be good at the centralisation and planned economy etc. Yet what is letting them down is a combination of poor to non existent planning. Strategic thinking is limited to political manouevres and back stabbing of fellow labour MPs, or spiting the opposition parties.
Take the deputy PM position: Brown is due to go on holiday and will have to hand over to ... er who exactly? Last year it was Harriet but now the guy with the longest job title in the world is muscling in. Although I disagree with her policies she does strike me as one of the few decent persons in the Cabinet. Additionally Harriet has metaphorically more "balls" than Brown, Balls and Mandelson combined!
Brown is a terrible leader in so many ways, but duping the vulnerable who are dependent on the state into believing that everything is OK is absolutely shocking behaviour. If the nation's finances were published the eyeopener would be the tax revenues. These have not just fallen. They have dropped off the cliff!
Robert Peston had a blog last week that talked of UK electricity consumption down by 4 percent! That is some slowdown in the manufacturing sectors. The last time there was a fall like that was in the second world war. Demand in the economy needs to be kickstarted: we have tried very low interest rates and government spending as a stimulus and neither have worked yet. In time things may get better, but a radical solution might be lower income taxes as an incentive for new business creation.
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160. At 5:28pm on 29 Jun 2009, Laughatthetories wrote:
Fair enough Ghostie, honesty would be nice I agree, but one thing in this world that is a fact is that you won't get it from a politician, whatever party they support, with the sole exception of Tony Benn, of course.
I will eat my own forehead if Cameron isn't plotting something with this riots nonsense
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Yep, i have a lot of time for Tony Benn also Vince Cable and Frank Field
As with much news reporting many comments are taken out of context and manipulated to mean something other than the original author intended
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
By the way Nick your memory appears to be very short. In the northwest, under NuLabour, we have already had a number of riots. They were in the real world and not in your ethereal world and not very pretty events.
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any government could do a better job than what we have to suffer,
but looking at the benches sadly there is no-one on any side with what it would take to repair the recent ecconomy and reputation.
people must be able to de-elect mp's as and when they fail to do the job they are elected for.
the people have the right to call a general election if those elected fail or bring this country into disrepute.
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"No one will forget the kicking Thatcher's Government gave to the ordinary person - ever. I have no love for New Labour but Cameron? Do me a favour."
For one thing consider the last 15 years of Tory rule - only once did they get unemployment down to around the 2.5m mark - most of that time it was over 3m. Now it takes a global recession to make things as bad under the current government as the best of times under the previous one (and that doesn't factor in the population growth over those 30+ years, which is about 10% I think, so the 3.6m unemployed under the Tories in the mid 80s would equate to around 4m now, which is well above most projections of how bad it will get)
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7789784.stm
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My greatest fear is that this strategy Brown is using will in fact work. After all the public may not believe that it is possible that a Prime Minister would actually tell untruths to them. I sincerely hope that Cameron is right in his assessment that the truth will out as I see precious little evidence of this through the media at the moment.
After all despite all the evidence out there that Brown must make cuts and is actually doing so there are still people on this blog that believe he is telling the truth so what is the wider population thinking. It seems no matter how many respected organisations say we must cut our public finances there are still people polarized in the belief that we do not.
Cameron is right to point out that if a Government wins an election on untruths and savage cuts do happen because they have been left too late to start bringing the economy back into balance, there will most certainly be significant unrest in the Country.
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168. At 6:29pm on 29 Jun 2009, Susan-Croft wrote:
Cameron is right to point out that if a Government wins an election on untruths and savage cuts do happen because they have been left too late to start bringing the economy back into balance, there will most certainly be significant unrest in the Country.
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Thank you Susan, that perfectly puts Camerons comments into the proper context, unlike Nicks rather out of context report
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Any one who believes that any of them are going to tell the whole truth
will see flying pigs next
as all MP's are economical with the truth as they think if they told us the truth we would not like it and as for this merry go round of who is going to make the deepest cuts after the election well that is the question
Some have seen what Tories cuts are like and who winds up with all the money and it is not the working man or woman
well we know that the Tories want to scrap the minimum wage
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This shower of a government is continually given an easy time by the bbc, including Nick. Evan Davies has now become a man on laughing gas unable to land anything but a soft blow, and his cohorts on the Toady programme are the same.
So now we need to reform the Commons and the bbc, and try to get people with real experience and leadership skills into place before we go totally bust.
But where are they?
Do we only have Clegg and Davis to show respect to?
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The worse thing that could happen to our country, would be for Labour to be re-elected.
The worse thing for the Labour Party would be to be re-elected, when they would have to admit their dishonesty and be forced to put in place cut backs and tax increases. I am not sure that they would be brave enough or have the strength to cope with this.
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york1900 170
I am not aware that the Conservatives want to scrap the minimum wage. I thought it was other organisations particularly unions, warning that if we did not get to grips with unemployment and immigration continued to rise, market forces would push our minimum wage down.
Please could you provide information where the Conservatives are wanting to scrap the minimum wage, I must have missed something.
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# 167. At 6:19pm on 29 Jun 2009, ch21ss wrote:
"I think, so the 3.6m unemployed under the Tories in the mid 80s would equate to around 4m now, which is well above most projections of how bad it will get)"
dear ch21ss, you are forgetting some basics - firstly, the current unemployment figures do not include the @ 2.5 million claiming incapacity benefit. Secondly, many of the jobs created under Labour are not productive real jobs, but public sector "non-jobs". Thirdly, basic economics dictate that no Government can borrow more than it receives in revenue indefinitely.
One of the lasting legacies of this useless excuse for a Government, will be a massive current bill to service debt interest, pay public sector unfunded pensions and pay for PFI. The country is broke, the Government is broke and we all know it apart from the Prime Mentalist!
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170. At 7:11pm on 29 Jun 2009, york1900 wrote:
well we know that the Tories want to scrap the minimum wage
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Unless i have missed something, i don't recall the Tories saying or suggesting that at all York, perhaps you could reveal where you got that from
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Have never associated myself with ideas from the 'right' and especially ultra-wealthy Tory right, but on this occasion there may well be more than an element of truth in Dave 'whats my policy today' Cameron's remarks.
Especially if the 'cuts' in Public Spending coincide with the continued failure of Labour or Conservative Governments to provide a Referendum on Lisbon Treaty and preferably on UK/England membership of the European Union.
What is the cvonnection?
Well, as neither NuLab nor Cons can claim any high ground on the expenses scandal and as all 650 Westminster Palace Commons incumbents and the 200 or so Peers with fingers in the Public Purse, the disillusion amongst the Electorate is enormous and it is growing not receding. Especially with the blatant all-Party conspiracy of no attempt at proper, genuine Parliamentary Reform as evidenced by the new Speaker 2 x house flipper Bercow setting the agenda.
Add continued high unemployment, reductions in Health-Education-Social services plus a weakened Police alongside seemingly continued unchecked immigration, and the EU becomes the prime target. After the Eire Citizens cave-in this autumn the Lisbon Treaty will give Brussels the ultimate say in every facet of UK life: Therefore, with UK Leadership already discredited who else is there to blame, but the Federalist EU and its Commission!?
'Riots'! We may be lucky if that's all there is.
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ch21ss wrote: " For one thing consider the last 15 years of Tory rule - only once did they get unemployment down to around the 2.5m mark - most of that time it was over 3m. Now it takes a global recession to make things as bad under the current government as the best of times under the previous one "
Oh come on, please. The government spinmeisters have changed the way unemployed are counted. These nulabour corrected figures don't include the economicaly inactive because they are not registered as job seekers. They would constitute about another 2.5 million, the so called underclass, on life time welfare, and they never show up as unemployed.
As your link shows, unemployment peaked in the early Thatcher years, and then bottomed in the late eighties as all the goodness of Maggie's medicine worked through the system. The rate was around 5% (a more meaningfull figure than absolute numbers) similar to the Broon boon years. The main difference was that the former was built on the base of prudent government spending whilst the latter was built on a crazed debt filled orgy.
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Comment 159 : Whistling Neil
Well I know, of course, that there are vast value-for-money savings to be made in the public sector. Many of them will be so obvious that even more savings will be possible by foregoing the need to get in a team of consultants to identify them - not, of course, that I would expect this to happen. The acid test is how much of these "efficiencies" that Labour are using to avoid having to use the word "cuts" will actually happen? I mean, presumably these "efficiency" audits are an on-going thing, and therefore there has been a ballooning of public expenditure (sorry did I not write "investment") despite major efficiencies having been achieved at the same time.
Incidentally, "The management consultancy business is basically built on the notion businesses are not optimally efficient" is a very fine-sounding assertion that, if reflective of what management consultancy is all about, gains it the high moral ground. I wonder how many management consultants, on the other hand, in their secret moments, say to themselves "Thank heavens there are so many executives about who are prepared to commit their companies to spending piles of money on consultancy for no real purpose other than to enhance the usually false picture of their own dynamism that the executives spend too much of their time painting."
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Listening to which Labour cabinet non-entity was weaselling on PM today, all suddenly became clear.
Labour don't make "cuts" in services - they apparently just "reprioritise" them.
It'd be funny if it weren't so tragic - and pathetic.
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Hmm who was testing what water and for whom with this blog ?
Was Nick doing some bidding to see the response or was Cameron testing what?
Very strange.
Shall keep an eye on those who supported the riots potential to see if they disappear!
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Did cameron claim his new kaiser chiefs CD on expenses?
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I don't know why the BBC even bother interviewing Labour ministers, the interviewers can't seem to get a straight answer out of them and seem content to let the minister give and answer that they want regardless as to whether it's to the question or not.
How about letting us the people ask the questions, I'd be quite happy to ask anyone of our ministers the same question over and over again until they answer rather than dodge it.
Brown has spent more money than her raises in taxes so to keep this going is he:
1. Going to borrow even more
2. Raise taxes
3. Cut public spending (that's not the same as cutting services)
Either way the UK state is too big, spending something like 50% of GDP - given the private sector has to provide that GDP aren't we into the land where the state is dragging us all down?
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In my haste, I forgot the final sentence of the management consultants' self-talk:-
"But then, for every executive willing to use consultants for naked self-aggrandizement, there are ten who are eager to commission us not to give advice, but to blur the lines of responsibility, so that they can deny origination of their own policies that turn out to be contentious or ill-considered."
It's win-win for the executive. Blame the consultant when things go wrong, and take the praise for calling in the consultant when things go right. B*gger the unnecessary cost to the company.
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When I signed in this and saw this headline, I thought it might be referring to the British public's anger over the news that broke yesterday (except on the BBC) that 85 Sharia Courts are operating out of mosques across Britain dispensing their own form of justice which runs completely contrary to our legal system with its fundamental premise of equality to all.
Why, I would like to know, are the British government through the EHRC pursuing the BNP over their restrictive membership policies and at the same time allowing a gross abuse of our judicial system to go unchallenged? These Courts should be immediately banned and anyone who seeks to engage in them arrested.
Why has the BBC not reported on this issue that was widespread through the media yesterday?
Why have none of the main party leaders commented on the issue?
It is absolutely disgraceful.
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do the labour supporters (should i say new labour?) really believe that their beloved government will not be making cuts and/or implementing tax rises?
- over 100 new taxes have come in under brown (wether pm or chancellor)
- darling himself, confirmed by balls and mandelson yesterday, and byrne, have confirmed they have "identified" more than 35 billion pounds worth of efficiency savings (its taken 12 years to discover there is waste in public services?)
- darling's last "budget" proclaimed a halving of the country's borrowings, to the tune of 98 BILLION POUNDS!
these are confirmed plans for your labour government!
i for one do not believe the "tories love cuts" mantra, gurned by the labour party at all.
talking of aspirations and "visions" is simply a claim to what all people want to see.
the nonsense spouted by labour is ludicrous - so far this week from labour voting friends ive heard:
- "the tories hate the [insert a public service of your choice here] and will cut their funding!"
but my favourite labour lie, is the line "the reason the prices of public services (in this case dentist treatment) is so high, is because the banking industry got greedy and cost the country billions!"
this labour government have already confirmed in their own budget that cuts and efficiency savings are required, but still new labour supporters deny this is the case, as their beloved leader gordon brown continues to say this is wrong.
the true state of the nations finances will not be revealed to cameron and his shadow cabinet until the government calls an election and they can see the public accounts, to suggest they are "hiding" policies is a joke, no credible political party would make financial policy on guesswork.
which is why labour cannot be taken seriously as mandelson told us yesterday, "we are not doing a review of the public finances as we dont know what the figures for the economy will be in the future!"
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Labour's refusal to have the Comprehensive Spending Review tells us that whoever is in power after the next election thing are going to dire.
So David Cameron and George Osborne should request data from the Treasury and make their own Comprehensive Spending Review now as part of their election manifesto.
If the British people dont like it and prefer Gordon Brown's lies then they will again vote for the most inept Government we have seen in living memory.
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183 ExcellenceFirst
I see you have dealt with management consultants before.
You are of course correct, they are the ultimate cop out used by all manner of executives who either lack the wit or knowledge to understand the business they are managing and how it actually works.
They usually either divide in to the spend months talking to the staff to find out then put the ideas the staff gave them to the management as theirs (not that the managers would listen to their staff in many cases) or the here is a wonderful idea we have and try to shoehorn the business into it no matter how much damage is done to get it to fit (usually the reason big IT projects end up a disaster)
And provide a cop out should it all go terribly wrong - not me guv.
HMG have made extensive use of consultants, can't remember the figures paid but it was ridiculous. They have also seconded them into the departments to 'improve efficiency' from the main consultancy houses. Curiously much of this results in outsourcing or selling off the relevant bit or hiving it into another quango.
The efficiency process which is required in our government is more of the, we no longer do this and cut the department and associated staff. Much waste is generated by underfunding everything which means the people administering it spend more time doing ' computer says no' than actually doing anything, but sure you knowhow difficult it is to actually get rid of civil servants.
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"A third opinion is that those of you ganging up on the teacher because of two or three grammatical / spelling errors are really quite pathetic."
- 2 or 3 in ONE paragraph is absolutely appalling!!! and that's ignoring the grammar too! I think it is a perfectly reasonable expectation of a teacher, that they have very good written English skills. Just my opinion of course, you're probably right to say it's not important.
"Anyway, if you wish to judge the current tory party (and ignore the fact that Willetts is a current member of the shadow cabinet) how about the country's most senior tory politician. I seem to recall that Boris Johnson was sacked from the shadow cabinet. What was his offence again. I'll leave it to the Times headline to remind you: 'Boris Johnson sacked for lying over affair.'"
- He was sacked though, wasn't he? Has Gordon Brown been sacked yet?
In other completely related news, 7 put of 8 funding jobs in the West Midlands area for social housing have fallen through due to 'lack of funds'... Not cuts though, just lack of funds. Funds that were supposedly there until just about a week ago. Suspicious? You almost definitely should be.
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188. At 1:11pm on 30 Jun 2009, kingloneranger wrote:
"A third opinion is that those of you ganging up on the teacher because of two or three grammatical / spelling errors are really quite pathetic."
- 2 or 3 in ONE paragraph is absolutely appalling!!! and that's ignoring the grammar too! I think it is a perfectly reasonable expectation of a teacher, that they have very good written English skills. Just my opinion of course, you're probably right to say it's not important.
"Anyway, if you wish to judge the current tory party (and ignore the fact that Willetts is a current member of the shadow cabinet) how about the country's most senior tory politician. I seem to recall that Boris Johnson was sacked from the shadow cabinet. What was his offence again. I'll leave it to the Times headline to remind you: 'Boris Johnson sacked for lying over affair.'"
- He was sacked though, wasn't he? Has Gordon Brown been sacked yet?
In other completely related news, 7 PUT of 8 funding jobs in the West Midlands area for social housing have fallen through due to 'lack of funds'... Not cuts though, just lack of funds. Funds that were supposedly there until just about a week ago. Suspicious? You almost definitely should be.
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"7 PUT of 8"
Oooopps
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189. At 1:33pm on 30 Jun 2009, ghostworld wrote:
Typo's don't count! :-)
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190. At 1:46pm on 30 Jun 2009, kingloneranger wrote:
189. At 1:33pm on 30 Jun 2009, ghostworld wrote:
Typo's don't count! :-)
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Darn !
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@ femalerambo, post #184;
Regarding this quote;
"When I signed in this and saw this headline, I thought it might be referring to the British public's anger over the news that broke yesterday (except on the BBC) that 85 Sharia Courts are operating out of mosques across Britain dispensing their own form of justice which runs completely contrary to our legal system with its fundamental premise of equality to all."
You say "except the BBC", implying that this story is widely available elsewhere. And yet, I can't seem to find any reference to the story on SkyNews' website. Or Reuters. Doesn't seem to be on The Telegraph's website, nor even on The Daily Mail (which is usually first for any sort of anti-Muslim story). The Independent doesn't seem to be carrying it, neither does The Sun.
It seems that what you *should* have written is something like "the story which broke yesterday, except on any major news publication or station of any kind. Please tell me you're not using the BNP's website as a news source?
"Why has the BBC not reported on this issue that was widespread through the media yesterday?
Why have none of the main party leaders commented on the issue?"
The answer to both your questions is - as far as I can tell - "because it's not actually true". And again; please go away and look up what the phrase "widespread through the media" means, before using it again.
On, then, to the topic in hand; yes, I think Cameron is absolutely right to mention rioting in the streets. It is, after all, the inevitable result of a government consistently lying to its people and acting against the best interests of the public good. We saw it over the Poll Tax, under the Tories; we'll see it again.
And quite frankly, I can't say that I believe it would be an entirely bad thing to remind these self-serving politicians who it is they're working for. To use the tag-line from the film "V for Vendetta";
"The people should not be afraid of their government. The Government should be afraid of its people".
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192
I did actually see a headline in a newspaper on the subject whilst in my local newsagents yesterday.. Can't remember the paper, but think it was the Daily Express
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"Khrystalar wrote:
You say "except the BBC", implying that this story is widely available elsewhere. And yet, I can't seem to find any reference to the story on SkyNews' website. Or Reuters. Doesn't seem to be on The Telegraph's website, nor even on The Daily Mail (which is usually first for any sort of anti-Muslim story). The Independent doesn't seem to be carrying it, neither does The Sun."
I just checked the Daily Mail and Telegraph sites and both of them have covered the story (you have to search for it though as it has been replaced by headlines from today - which makes sense if you think about it!)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196165/Britain-85-sharia-courts-The-astonishing-spread-Islamic-justice-closed-doors.html
and
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/5675166/At-least-85-sharia-courts-operating-in-Britain-says-Civitas-report.html
I tried to find it on the Sky news site but there search is a mess (it doesn't give the option to arrange by date).
It is a nothing story to be honest but it has been reported.
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Mark - thanks for the tip, got it now. Most bizarre - I ran the search criteria "UK mosque sharia court" through both sites, which ought to have shown both stories straight up. You're right about the Sky search, it's a joke. It could well be on there, then, if this is actually a real story. I figured the poster I was responding to was trying to pass off something she'd seen on some White Power blog as news.
Although, maybe she is. From the Mail article;
"They lay down judgments which can be given full legal status if approved in national law courts. "
So these courts make judgements (on "Domestic, Marital and Business disputes", apparently) which aren't actually legally binding unless approved by a British Court. I believe the CoE Churches sometimes offer a similar mediation service, although I could be wrong about that.
Either way; the story is a long way from the 'Evil Sharia courts meting out outrageous punishments that would never be acceptable in British Courts' line that Ms. Rambo was pushing. As you say; something of a non-story, which is probably why the main political leaders aren't throwing fits over it, and why the BBC and most of the rest of the press aren't even carrying it.
Anyway, thanks again.
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"Khrystalar wrote:
From the Mail article;
"They lay down judgments which can be given full legal status if approved in national law courts. "
So these courts make judgements (on "Domestic, Marital and Business disputes", apparently) which aren't actually legally binding unless approved by a British Court. I believe the CoE Churches sometimes offer a similar mediation service, although I could be wrong about that."
Exactly, the 'judgements' are essentially mediation that only apply if both parties agree to the conclusion, the judgements also won't apply to the larger community (i.e. they won't set a legal precident)and have probably been in place for members of other religions (and probably Muslims) for a while (I believe there is also a Jewish equivalent).
Which is why I commented that it was a nothing story.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Let's all march on Downing Street on July 14th and tell them to go quickly so we can have any new government in with an intention to address the sitation instead of letting it fester for a crazy form of electoral advantage !
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What we need is LESS government. Whichever party is in power they make a mess of most initiatives and Labour has certainly launched and relaunched, announced and re-announced, borrowed and taxed too much already. We have fools in charge of the country who think the electorate is even more stupid than they are. In this case more is definitely less. A general election is a pre-requisite to prevent Lord of the Fools Mandelson from running the country.
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