'Rebuilding Labour's Future'
"Stick a red rose on the front and it could be a Labour manifesto."
So said a Whitehall mandarin about the document which is widely-known in Whitehall as Gordon's "National Plan" - a title dropped to avoid any unfortunate Stalinist overtones.
Look at the eye-catching headline-grabbing proposals in the more forgettably-titled "Building Britain's Future" and you can see what he meant:
"Take a job or lose benefit"
Young people who refuse the offer of a government-created job - after being unemployed for more than a year - will face having their benefit docked.
The Budget unveiled the "Young Person's Guarantee" which promised that that everyone under the age of 25 who'd been out of work for 12 months would be offered a paid job or a training place designed to get them back to work.
The chancellor pledged that the government would work with employers to create or support as many as 250,000 jobs in local services and social care.
As a result of today's announcement, those who refuse a suitable job offer could lose two weeks' benefit (or up to six months if they continue to refuse to participate). Where a suitable job isn't available, they'll be offered a choice of either training or community work experience. Failure to complete a 13-week community task force without good cause would will also result in benefit sanctions.
"Local homes for local people"
The rules governing council housing will be reviewed to allow councils to favour local people or those who've been on the housing waiting list for a long time, instead of new immigrants.
Add to that evidence the clear signals from Peter Mandelson that he might not quite get round to part-privatising Royal Mail and that there'll be no spending review before the election, and it's clear that this document's real title should be "Rebuilding Labour's Future".
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~57~RS~)
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What future?
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Sorry Nick -- the correct headline should "Attempting to buy Labour's future through bribes".
All a touch too late -- his game is up and the people won't believe this type of spin anymore. The UK public know that the country can't sustain the current level of public spending and pretty much every commentator is saying the UK must curtail not expand costs if it is to recover.
UK needs an election NOW.
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Well that means that my Son due to leave school next year will not get a job for 12 months as all the leavers from this year with their 6000 goverment rebate to the employer will garantee3 them a job even if my son is better qualified!
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"Local homes for local people"
This sounds dangerously like a BNP policy- I hope this bit doesn't get through parliament.
Aside from that, This sounds like a good set of Policies, but any bets on the length of time until The opposition and Lib Dem leaders start to (predictably) say that it's wrong?
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So that would be one of the world's shortest books then: "Rebuilding Labour's Future".
None of the above will actually happen of course, Labour are in denial about spending cuts, and now backtracking on the "non-negotiable" Royal Mail privatisation because they are too busy!
What we need is an election and a fresh government with a renewed mandate.
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um how to rebuild labour lets see firstly i would clear out these neu-labour idiots that have ruined the traditional labour party.
but to be honest labour should just close up and shut down its day has past and it like all other parties are destroying parliment.
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Dosen't a lot of this sound familiar? Maybe a few words changed here and there? They ran out of ideas a long time ago, and now we have run out of our money. Thank you Labour.
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Why should we trust Gordon Brown?
He tell lies. He also doesn't deliver on his electoral promises.
The thought of Gordon Brown continuing at the helm "Building Britain's Future" makes me retch.
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'Look at the eye-catching headline-grabbing....'
'The chancellor pledged.....'
'..which promised...'
All from your very own blog, Nick. For 12 years we've endured this bull. Three times the biggest minority of electors bought into the bull.
It won't wotk any more. No one believes a word he says anymore.
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The unemployment of young people is once again going to be a major social problem in the not too distant future as all those schools and universities churn out their new graduates into an economy that is busy making experienced and skilled workers redundant. So what jobs are these young people to have? What training are they going to get on top of all that education they have already had to make them more employable?
Furthermore the adoption by Labour of the BNP housing policy is nothing more than squalid opportunism of the lowest order. What better statement is there of the complete political and moral bankruptcy of this Labour government.
This is nothing about Building Britain's Future; it is not even a sick joke. It is a vile insult to our intelligence.
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Yeh local homes for local people, just like British jobs for British people.
Wait until the Human rights lawyers get that one in court, or someone from Africa or Eastern Europe takes the local authority to the EU courts,
1, The local authority will have to house them
2, The local authority will be fined which will then come out of council tax payers pockets.
Once again we, the British people will not have a say in what can or cannot be done because of Labours pro European stance.
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Its quite laughable to here this guy set out a "vision" for the future because neither he nor many of his supporters will see power again due to the way they have devastated the economy of this country.
I suppose we will have to A) borrow more or B) print more money just remind us again Nick just how much over the predictions we are already and just what the total will be when all the hidden contracts find their way onto the balance sheet.
Labour = Epic fail and all they are doing is topping up there more than adequate pension pots while condemning us all to even more years of drastic cuts.....they know it, you know it ,but they just wont take their heads out of the sand and admit it.
I laughed when i saw that the Monarchy costs us 69p each how much does all the Parliaments we now have cost us ???
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How do u figure ZanuLabour has a future?????? - did Mandy tellu??? - or r u just showing your usual Liebour bias???? - more LIES, SPIN, AND DECEIT, from the whiter than white, cleaner than clean, party. HILARIOUS if it was not so tragic for us, our children, and their childrens children, and it is ALL abou Liebour and zilch about UK.
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What a feeble effort!
If that's the best that Brown and his cohort can manage, then Britain has no future.
Why is it always "the Government" who has to create jobs? WE can't afford the taxes to support even more public sector employees. I've nothing against public service - just the waste it seems to bring.
Anyone notice the Office of National Statistics report?
Since 1997, 2.9MIL jobs have been created in the UK.
1.1MIL were in the private sector.
1.9MIL were in the public sector...
So 50percent more jobs were paid for out of taxes (or borrowings) than created in the real economy. I just haven't noticed 1.9MIL new-jobs worth of improvement in public services.
Has anyone else?
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Is that it? Populist lollipops?
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The trouble with Labour's initiatives is that they don't actually carry them out.
So hot air there then.
Re Housing. In my mind, legally, there are two criteria to be fulfilled when allocating council housing (the same as in a divorce settlement coincidentally) and those are :
NEEDS
and
ENTITLEMENT.
First establish there is a need. Good. Right. If there IS then establish if there is an ENTITLEMENT.
Anybody ever done it that way? Probably not.
I would also add my twopenneth in that this government are probably acting unlawfully on many many accounts. Not least that there was absolutely NO consultation with people on what they thought about immigration - unchecked - and its effects on the areas where they live. In other words they should have asked us FIRST if we would like our towns to be turned into slums and inhabited by millions of people who cannot and don't want to even speak the language of OUR country.
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Nothing much exciting here, whoever's future the document is detailing - they are in for an underwhelming time.
Sounds like recycled tired ideas, most of which should plain common sense, the absence of which is behind many of New Labours policies. The detail of these usually ensures that nothing much chnages or gets done for the better. No ideas, no initiative, no energy - a tired end to a tired government.
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I misread the first paragraph as 'Stick a red nose on the front ...' When I finished the article I thought my opening paragraph may be more appropriate!
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... and 2.1 billion for affordable homes?
how and where will those funds be disseminated, I wonder.
Or perhaps none will quite reach the councils or housebuilders I suspect.
Remember the 100+ million 'Enterprise Strategy', serious funds being made available for underwriting young and keen-to-grow businesses, even a capital fund of 12.5 million for women-led companies.......... signed up to by all the major banks. Did barely a penny reach who it was supposed to?
Regards, in a totally disillusioned sort of way..
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I live in a small village in Somerset, where a new developmemnt of about 30 houses was recently built. Of these, 8 had to be made over to 'social housing' via a charity. That is all well and good, but the policy for who gets a house was all wrong, and it looks very much like Local Homes for Local people will fall into the same trap. It should not matter how long you have lived in anarea to qualify for a house. It should depend on how much value you create for the local community. We now have eight families who have never donne a days work, given their houses for a peppercorn rent, merely due the fact that they grew up here. On the other hand, the school mistress, post man, hair dresser etc, can not afford to live in the area.
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4 General Fondue
"This sounds like a good set of Policies, but any bets on the length of time until The opposition and Lib Dem leaders start to (predictably) say that it's wrong?"
==========================
The opposition usually don't have to do this. As with everything New Labour, the devil is in the detail, and things are never quite like they seem.
I agree with your comment about local homes for local people. But what does it actually mean ?
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4. Oh for goodness sake Fondue!
Are you naive or what? Just get out and see the problems immigration has caused with housing.
You should have heard the Jeremy Vine programme on the wireless this morning.
Almost without exception the public rang in and said the immigration has caused the problem and why are they still arriving here, homeless, with no job prospects?
Where is my Alka Selzer?
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Does Roy Kinnear write Newlabour polict proposal?
Certainly looks like someone is in the backround shouting - Catchphrase!
Local homes for local people? What on earth does that mean? Built out of local materials only? Nobody can have any hope anymore to move out of their area? If I want to move into your area I can't because I'm not local? This is more newlabour spin and foolishness which will fall as flat as every other attempt to relaunch the good ship Bismarck/Brown.
He has no idea; 75% want public sector spending to be cut - get on with it or call an election.
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Labour has no future judging from that speech by Brown today.
A stale government going through the motions who will not walk away. If only they would.
I fear for those under 25's who will be bullied into doing the most mundane created jobs either with or without good qualifications. A quick fix but completely soul destroying for the young people concerned.
What maddens me most are the lies. Brown says the tories did nothing in the last recession to help young people. Has he not heard of the Youth Training Scheme introduced by the Conservatives in the eighties.
Young people leaving school were given an allowance for a year to try out different jobs. Employers were able to give them training and were able to empoly them on a permanent basis in many cases.
It enabled young people to gain experience in many types of employment and was invaluable to those without higher educational qualifications.
It was a creative scheme unlike the new proposals which appear to be telling young people they have to do something they don't want to or lose benefit.
Brown keeps talking about growth. Perhaps he needs to find out how to stop a recession first.
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It's just another exercise in rehashing stuff we already knew about and making promises we all know they won't have to keep, not least because they won't be around to call to task when their failure becomes apparent. Put simply, the money just isn't there for all these promises. We know it, the Tories know it, government ministers just about admit it, but Brown lives in a world of total fiction now. I just wish someone would close the book on him.
This might be seen as a plan for Labour's future, but let's all be honest about it: they don't have one.
http://cogitodexter.wordpress.com
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Seems to be a list of policies Labour would normally condemn, indeed Beckett was condemned by her fellow Labour Party members for even suggesting something along the lines of 'Local Housing for Local People.'
It would appear that Labour have realized that most of the BNP's votes have come from disaffected Labour voters, and are altering policy to try and get them back.
And how many relaunches has this been for Brown now? Given the abject failures of the previous ones, I can't see anyone falling for this one - especially as Labour are refusing, via cowardice, delusion or outright dissembling, to acknowledge the depth of public spending cuts that will be needed soon.
Mind you, they could be hoping their economic forecasts are correct, although given they haven't ever managed that before, perhaps they should remember what we describe people who repeatedly do the same act and expect a different outcome - insane.
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Another suggestion for a headline Nick: 'Rebuilding Brown's Future'?
Another day, another relaunch. The public is sick of it and want a general election.
This election manifesto has Mandy's name written all over it with a couple of glaring omissions such as the Royal Mail sell-off, future of Trident and a comprehensive Whitehall spending review.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, Brown is trying to find a few crumbs of comfort for his legacy and shore up his position ahead of what could be September's leaving party.
It's an admission of failure and begs the question what have they been doing for the last 12 years?
http://theorangepartyblog.blogspot.com/2009/06/mandy-manifesto-with-dollop-of-brown.html
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Well if this could be a Labour manifesto then we already know they could be prepared to break any promises contained in it.
I would spend some time putting together a structured point by point critique, but what's the point?
There's only one response to this pathetic 'vision' - rofl.
Nothing on this earth could persuade me to vote for these vile,lying troughers.
FFS GIVE US AN ELECTION
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5. At 4:02pm on 29 Jun 2009, yellowbelly1959 wrote:
"What we need is an election and a fresh government with a renewed mandate."
And the exact mechanism - by which you intend to achieve that outcome - is?
Like, dream on.
You only get an election when one particular person decides it's election time, or the parliamentary term is up, or - perhaps - if Mr B resigns as PM, some other Labour-chosen 'prime minister' decides it's election time.
Of course, if Mr B were to stand down, it's not impossible - though surely unlikely - Labour would not choose another prime minister in advance of the next election. So, remember the Lord Secretary of State, Chief Cook and Bottle-Washer (what IS that title of his?) can be prime minister in the interim. That's dearest Mandy, of course, and as he IS a member of the House of Lords, he COULD undertake the role of prime minister.
Under those circumstances, I can't see an election happening all that quickly and if one was imminent, why is Mr B giving out all the signs of digging himself into the bunker for the duration? (Unless that is some sort of double-bluff).
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Ref. 23 by Robin JD "relaunching the good ship Bismarck/Brown" is a good analogy!
The Bismarck did a fair bit of damage during her short foray into international waters, was damaged, lost all steering, went round in circles, and eventually sank without trace taking many crew with her. For Brown, only the last stage remains (hopefully).
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It is not Labour's future that needs re-building. Nor is it Brown's. It is Britain's. And there is no chance of even starting on that until this shower are voted out.
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"The rules governing council housing will be reviewed to allow councils to favour local people ... instead of new immigrants."
So no immigrants from Scotland to be housed in Downing Street in London, England, then?
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It is very important that all young people should have the opportunity of a worthwhile paid job, but 12 months seems a long time to have to wait. Could it not be much shorter?
It is typical of the harsh attitudes of our times that so much emphasis is put on what should happen to people who do not take a job that is offered. Presumably this is done to back up the big lie that young people who cannot find work, do not try.
Typically young people start looking with great enthusiasm, but become seriously depressed after repeated failure. If there really is a fairy godfather or godmother, who can conjure up jobs, then they should intervene well before this stage is reached.
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#11
European immigration is not the issue here - more British people live in other European countries than Europeans living here.
The problem is the open door policy allowing in people with backward, mediaeval outlooks on life driven by a fundamental, patriarchal religion that is totally at odds with our way of life.
A significant majority of such make no effort whatsoever to integrate with the existing population, learn about our way of life and adapt....which must beg the question - why on earth are they here in the first place?
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Gordon Brown spoke for 15 minutes about legislation that due to devolution will almost exclusively affect England. Yet he did not mention the forbidden E word once.
Cynics might conclude that the PM who represents a Scottish constituency won't mention the E word for fear of reminding the English that he has absolutely no mandate in England, yet England is the only place he can pass law.
Not one member of the house complained or spoke for England either.
Something is very wrong. English Parliament now!
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So after a delay of 20 Years in Office Brown is now suggesting that Labour is going to build Britains future.
For, if this Country was not in the total mess that it is currently in, Brown's idea would be Joke of the Week, for just how many fools are there in the U.K. that truly believe what any Politicians have to say AFTER their Expenses Scandal.
So lets start with Gordon, yes thats ONE, now whom wants to be Number Two. [Any OTHER Fools, sorry takers.]
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Even The Guardian welcomed these new schemes as non starters because they cannot be paid for. What is the point of Gordon Brown? He's so obviously well past his sell by date!
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""Stick a red rose on the front and it could be a Labour manifesto.""
Why did I read that the first time as '"Stick a red nose on the front and it could be a Labour manifesto.'? Certainly seems more apt!
" "Take a job or lose benefit"
Young people who refuse the offer of a government-created job - after being unemployed for more than a year - will face having their benefit docked. "
So the party that brought us the 'National Minimum Wage' will now be bringing us the National Subsistence Wage, and how long before such 'rational' is inflicted upon all job seekers - wasn't it the 1930s the last time this sort of policy/rational was used in europe... Look out for the next Brown policy announcement, at the Labour parties conference, renaming New Labour the 'National Socialist Party and installing himself as leader for life!
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Nick,
Could you let us know whether these 250,000 jobs the Chancellor will be creating are in addition to the 100,000 which the Prime Minister said he would creat at the beginning of the year?
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Brown continues to lie.
Mandleson continues to lie.
The rest of the labour ministers and MPs have no integrity.
PATHETIC.
I hope that labour get thrashed at the next election.
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So, what you're saying, is that the Labour Party has used the machinery of government for party political purposes. Is that not against the rules?
Is it unreasonable to expect the Government to think about what might be best for the country at a time of record deficits, rising unemloyment and plumetting tax revenues, rather then what might help them hold onto a couple of extra seats come the election?
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'Building Britain's Future' should be a very short document.
Because there isn't one.
Unlike, England, Scotland and Wales, countries for whom there most definately is a future, and a bright one at that.
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This is an odd website:
isgordonbrownstillprimeminister.com
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Why the hell doesn't Gordon just give up now? He is just prolonging the agony and is in total denial.
Let's change the answer in the above website.
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34 DialSquareDomination
You appear to be out of touch with what is happening elsewhere in the world.
We are now seeing the voluntary return of expats from all over the world as other countries bow to the will of their people and are having to introduce new policies that natural born indigenous people take priority for jobs.
This country as always will ignore what is happening elsewhere and will follow rules that everywhere else ignores. This is storing up big trouble for the future.
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Dear Nick, You might like to check with a local authority. The days of council (social housing) waiting lists have longed passed.
"Clients" have to bid (on line) for housing according to a complex set of priorities which accrue points and the properties have to be let to those who have the highest points. This is why people who have come from another country, who have the legal right to be here and whose points total is higher appear to "jump" the housing list over those who have been waiting a long time but whose points total is lower.
European and Human Rights laws apply and there is no way, this government is going to ignore them. It doesn't have the will or the courage. Sadly this is yet another empty promise from Gordon Brown.
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#34 You wrote :
"European immigration is not the issue here - more British people live in other European countries than Europeans living here."
Do you have any evidence to back up this statement ?
I suggest you take a look at these sites :
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?id=260
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/one-in-nine-people-living-in-uk-is-foreign-born-report_100159562.html
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Legislation to remove remaining hereditary peers in Lords. Powers to disqualify peers guilty of misconduct. Draft Proposals to reduce size of Lords and to "democratically constitute" the chamber.
phase one of the removal of a system that has stood for centuries.
next will be from prime minister to president and once that happens this country will have totaly gone to the dogs.
many of the preposals were announced by mr blair many years ago and looked good then so have been revived, what a waste of taxpayers money.
get rid of the lot before they ruin us all.
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englandrise @ 35
You are absolutely correct when you say that something is very wrong when we have a PM who represents a Scottish constituency and won't mention the 'E' word for fear of reminding the English that he has absolutely no mandate in England, yet England is the only place he can pass law.
Furthermore, as you point out, not one member of the house complained or spoke for England either, which I find hugely offensive and more than enough reason on its own for English people to vote out those MP's at Westminster who do not stand up for England.
What wretched politicians they are, who cannot even fairly represent their English constituents - an early political grave beckons.
This is an English political pressure cooker which must blow soon, hopefully at the next General Election.
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So the clear choice at the election is Tory cuts versus Labour completely bankrupting the country.
I don't think the British electorate are that stupid. Brown is now so desperate, he feels that misleading the country is the only avenue left to him.
Where's the moral compass gone Gordo?
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i notice among the micky mouse finances GB is spending 2 billion to build 100,000 new hoses....that is 20,000 pounds per house....that would not even buy the plot of land!
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I don't know what you are all being so cynical about, all Gordon has to do is continue spending vast sums of money at an increasing rate and we will all be fine. Everyone knows you don't solve debt by making cuts like those nasty tories, you must "invest" your way out of a recession. I'm sure our great leader knows what he is doing!
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#51. At 6:04pm on 29 Jun 2009, jolo13 wrote:
"i notice among the micky mouse finances GB is spending 2 billion to build 100,000 new hoses....that is 20,000 pounds per house....that would not even buy the plot of land!"
Who said about buying land, who said anything about buying the bricks etc, marvellous things government bonds - they work just like IOU notes, in fact they are IOU notes, to be converted in to real money (if and) when the economy recovers, of course they will have a face value so that they can also be traded like Credit Default Swaps....oh hang on, isn't that were we came in?!
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This does seem to be shameless misuse of government money - to issue manifesto-style documentation. As there isn't enough data to produce the scheduled spending review, this "new" programme cannot seriously have been costed, so it is no better than a BNP or Green Party manifesto - that is, a wish list.
As for local housing being for local people: didn't the government impose a statutory duty on councils to provide housing for homeless immigrants? Doesn't that give them top priority? I guess it takes lawyer to find the answer to that...
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#52. At 6:05pm on 29 Jun 2009, DukeJake wrote:
"you must "invest" your way out of a recession. I'm sure our great leader knows what he is doing!"
Is that a bit like borrowing your way out of debt, well I suppose there could be worse places to borrow money than the IMF...
Oh, and yes I did note your original sarcasm "DukeJake".
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Dear Mrs Brown,
I write in response to your query over Gordons failure in his recent examinations despite the predictions made by his teachers at the start of his courses 2 years ago.
In Politics he was ungraded despite a predicted A* , the reason was that large sections of his coursework essay Building Britains Future submitted for the final exam were simply copied out from previous essays submitted for previous modules or other courses.
Simply copying them and changing a few words was insufficient to count as a new piece of work and was highlighted by the examining boards plagarism filters. Therefore he was automatically disqualified.
It has to be said though copying out pieces of other essays which had been marked with low scores already was also particularly stupid and he would not have passed.
The economics examination was a particular disppointment to us all, however despite having built a convincing argument in his dissertation, several fundamental errors were incorporated and resulted in his essay ,Brownism, being marked failed due to poor understanding of the subject. The exam board have however asked to use this essay as a "how not to" example in future text books which should be some consolation. The grade U however remains unchanged.
Sociology was a major disappointment, however having given the poor his pocket money it was a bit silly to return later and beat them up to get it back and then lie about to the examiner when challenged. This was very disappointing.
Whilst normally we would offer the opportunity to resit the exams we feel in Gordons case this would be a complete waste of time and money so will not be inviting him back next year.
yours
Gen.Public
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Forget it Brown .You have had ten years to put these policies into effect.This is just an exercise in vote winning,but you are deluded if you think the British electorate will be fooled at the next election.
Prepare for a stint in Opposition,you have earned it .
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Nick I am afraid you have got it wrong. There has just been another newsflash from No.10.
The next NuLabour manifesto will indeed be the front and back covers you show but the inside pages will be left blank. Like the spending review, they intend to publish the contents after the GE.
This solves two problems:
1 They can spout promises by the ton before the GE and fill in the contents afterwards.
2 Nobody can accuse them of spin, deceit or lies with the added bonus - Nobody will be able to accuse them of breaking manifesto pledges.
Roll On 2010 - Thats the way to go!
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Young people who refuse the offer of a government-created job - after being unemployed for more than a year - will face having their benefit docked.
Perhaps if they'd applied such a scheme to the millions they've kept on benefits - thier core vote - we might have a few extra quid in the coffers to get us through the recession with a little less pain. Still , it was inevitable in the end that they'd run out of money I suppose.
DbD
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23. At 4:36pm on 29 Jun 2009, RobinJD wrote:
Does Roy Kinnear write Newlabour polict proposal?
Certainly looks like someone is in the backround shouting - Catchphrase!
Local homes for local people? What on earth does that mean? Built out of local materials only? Nobody can have any hope anymore to move out of their area? If I want to move into your area I can't because I'm not local? This is more newlabour spin and foolishness which will fall as flat as every other attempt to relaunch the good ship Bismarck/Brown.
===
It all seems very Royston Vasey.
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Tie a blue ribbon around it and it could have been a Tory manifesto as well. Calls for a General Election are all well and good, but all that will happen is we'll change one bunch of unheeding shysters for another. We voted the Tories out 3 elections ago for the very same reasons this lot are doomed. They've both proved they're unfit to govern, let's have a real change for once.
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It's clearly designed to appeal to the illiterate next generaton of voters that have been created by what is laughingly described as "Labour's education policy".
Or if you prefer, it's a last-ditch attempt to get the BNP vote back into the Old Labour camp.
Even a BNP-UKIP coalition could probably run the country better than the current bunch of incompetents.
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It's hardly worth bothering to read - or post - comments here; it seems to be monopolised by some sort of permanent far-right Tory commentariat. They all sound the same - mostly insults and hatred. Do they pay them to lurk in various comment spaces to keep up a constant attack on "nulabour" (as they often seem to call it) as liars (or worse). They usually also claim that the BBC is a Labour outpost - although it certainly doesn't feel like that to anyone who is even slightly to the left of Ghengis Khan. This isn't political comment, it's mostly just bile.
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Marvellous! These are good ideas, if not exactly original. Five years too late, but marvellous. Nothing will happen of course, either that or the 'initiatives' will be so badly managed that we'd have been better off without them.
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"Stick a red rose on the front and it could be a Labour manifesto."
Unfortunately, it's not that funny.
Here we have Uncle Gordon standing outside the pawnbroker's window inviting us to look inside.
He keeps telling us he 'won't walk away' - but that's exactly what many wish he would do!
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Cannot watch Brown and Mandy anymore.I automatically mute until they have finished spinning their lies.Cannot understand that they cannot see or hear that no one wants to listen to them apart from a few ill informed labour die hards.Please go away.
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#63 hello Johnmallerstang
went to see my labour MP about the PUMA LEP and work being done in romania and canada (but an inferior solution)
he stated that it was wrong of GB to state "british jobs for british people"
so what is the point of spending taxpayers money so that it goes abroad
losing high skilled jobs and future employement for all ages
then try and keep the under 25 in work in a distored work place by these proposals.
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Hold on I thought Brown annouce that the school leaving age had or is being raised to 18. So why annouce 1- to 18 year olds will be offered a place at college ?
What has happenned to the "New Deal" has this fallen down a big hole!
Offering all under the age of 25 yrs a job , I am sorry what about all the graduates that will be coming out of University with debts up to there eyeballs, will there be anything left for them.
Regarding social housing - this was announced before in October (during the banking crisis) £200 million here and there is now nearly 9mths on and the building industry is still waiting.
How is all this to be funded, I look at the Chancellor to the right of Brown and he does not look a happy chap.
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take a quick look at some of brown's proposals:
"local housing for local people" "housing top priority for brown"
why then give housing associations millions of pounds 3 years ago, to take away housing from their local council?
where i live £27 million was offered for repairs if they stayed in council control, £42 million given if it went to a "public private partnership" of course the vote for tenants being given a new fire and new kitchens swayed the votes, shame they werent told that all excess land would be given away also as an incentive to the partnership!
housing should have been a priority before giving away the veto and extra powers to brussels on immigration - the problems the country face on housing are as a RESULT of brown/blair's failed policies!
(as should funding for the NHS, education, policing, social services, etc. but thats a different argument)
its no good putting extra funding into housing now (reactive politics) and made sure provision was in place before opening our borders (proactive)
"cut benefits of the young unemployed who refuse a job or training offer"
IF? brown's been telling us for years that benefit payments are suspended or cut when this happens!
benefits should be a safety net, not a way of life!
"By building new and additional homes we can also now reform social housing allocation enabling local authorities to give more priority to local people whose names have been on waiting lists for far too long,"
HELLO GORDON! anyone at home in 10 downing st?
more discrimination?
local authorities do not control most of our housing stock anymore!
maybe a reduction in salary for those in charge of public/private partnerships would be better?
i know ours went from £170,000 whilst working for our council to more than £330,000 to do the same job!
get a grip gordon.... call an election!
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63. At 6:36pm on 29 Jun 2009, JohnMallerstang wrote:
It's hardly worth bothering to read - or post - comments here; it seems to be monopolised by some sort of permanent far-right Tory commentariat. They all sound the same - mostly insults and hatred. Do they pay them to lurk in various comment spaces to keep up a constant attack on "nulabour" (as they often seem to call it) as liars (or worse). They usually also claim that the BBC is a Labour outpost - although it certainly doesn't feel like that to anyone who is even slightly to the left of Ghengis Khan. This isn't political comment, it's mostly just bile.
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Please do feel free to expand and qualify your comments
Accept the fact people are tired and fed up with New Labour same happened when the Tories were in power for too long and got complacent and arrogant same old cycle when the only parties that get into power are either the Tories or Labour
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It really doesn't matter of course what Labour put into their manifesto when they eventually publish one; no one will believe it anyway. There is still the small matter of a firm commitment on a referendum on the EU Lisbon treaty contained in the last manifesto which they simply reneged on by political slight of hand. Brown really must think that the electorate is stupid. It will come as a massive shock to him at the next general election, when he has the courage to call one, to find out that it is not.
The people are rightly angry over many things for which he is responsible in whole or in part, including the democratic deficit in England to which others have referred. He will be ejected from office in ignominy and it will serve him right. The man is a pathological liar, and all his talk about his presbyterian upbringing and moral compass simply demonstrates the contempt in which he holds us all. I will vote for a candidate from the "Anybody but Brown" party.
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Johnmallerstag.
You are so right. It is deeply depressing to read all the viciousness here but anyone who posts a comment even remotely supportive of government policies is immediately branded a 'troll' or accused of being Derek somebody's stooge. It really isn't worth trying to find out what this means. Central Office has these BBC blogs sewn up. I would like them shut down and the BBC should read out properly written letters sent through the post by real and literate listeners.
I merely popped in because I listened to Nick Robinson's radio programme yesterday and idly wondered what the bloggers would be foaming at the mouth about. The major topic seems to be whether or not to preface a comment with 'Dear Nick'.
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At last some real worthwhile and common sense proposal from the Labour GOvernment...at last they are listening to us and seem to have got their head around what is the right priorities for the average voter. Thank you Gordon!!!
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From the 1997 Labour manifesto
The Conservatives' lack of a housing strategy has led to the virtual abandonment of social housing, the growth of homelessness.
The Conservatives' failure on housing has been twofold. The two thirds of families who own their homes have suffered a massive increase in insecurity over the last decade, with record mortgage arrears, record negative equity and record repossessions. And the Conservatives' lack of a housing strategy has led to the virtual abandonment of social housing, the growth of homelessness, and a failure to address fully leaseholder reform. All these are the Tory legacy.
Labour's housing strategy will address the needs of homeowners and tenants alike.
We will reject the boom and bust policies which caused the collapse of the housing market.
And he wants another term to do what exactly.
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Duff Gordon recently said British jobs for British workers. When in reality quite the opposite was happening:
New private sector jobs taken by foreign workers
The increase in immigrant workers coming to Britain has accounted for nearly every new job created by companies since Labour came to power, research suggests.
This certainly puts his Council houses for local people into context.
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And to cap it all Liam Byrne, the male equivalent of Hazel Blears defending the indefensible on The News Channels today. I really cannot stand the man!
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It's OK Gordon, we know you're trying to wear a brave face, but it's getting time to go... the Conservatives and Lib Dems will take over from here.
The Labour Party.
1900 - 2010
RIP
LOL!
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72. At 7:06pm on 29 Jun 2009, doctordisraeli
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Hello Doctordisraeli, long time no hear. How is your export business getting on? Is the VAT reduction still helping you?
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73. At 7:07pm on 29 Jun 2009, davidou1234 wrote:
At last some real worthwhile and common sense proposal from the Labour GOvernment...at last they are listening to us and seem to have got their head around what is the right priorities for the average voter. Thank you Gordon!!!
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Yes David, it's only taken them 12 years!
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Labour is nothing but a party of pathalogical liars. What they fail to understand is that they have had 12 years to make Britain a better place to live in. By their own admissions today they have finally admitted at long last they have failed. They are now pledging, as if by magic, to put their misdeeds right in the next 11 months. They must think we are simpletons. Ministers are coming out of the woodwork saying they are going to have to prioritise things within their departments to fulfil the PMs pledges. What they mean is there will be deep cuts, pure and simple. To maintain the same number of police officers, doctors, nurses and teachers etc money will have to be found from somewhere. Waiting lists will become longer, equipment will not be replaced, overtime and vehicle mileage will be cut. Minor roads will not be maintained etc etc. Look forward folks to a second class Britain for the next decade at least. We should have made cuts ages ago. Paying for Gordon`s electioneering is going to hurt us all big time. The only bright thing on the horizon is that hopefully he will soon be long gone - writing his memoires by candle light on his croft in the northern isles - making a packet. Just like any good modern day socialist.
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Well now we have solved the problem.
We will definitely now require more highly paid public sector workers to administer all of the new 250,000 jobs in local services and social care.
And of cause this would not include the extra benefit office staff needed to sort out those (slackers sic) defaulting on the training and community work opportunities demanded of them.
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Yes, thank you, yellowbelly. Two more consignments to Germany today.
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Political promises, now there is something you can count on. I believe all the bankers were employed at the time of bad loans and other financial misdealings. I would present that they did more damage than the unemployed and are the reason many are unemployed. It would be good to see people at work, seems odd that the taxpayers will foot the bill as most think of employment in other sectors. Drop out of school and get a job, that is a slogan a party can run on. The day-shift will dig the hole and the night-shift can fill it back in. I guess some crumbs are left over after the bailouts. Scapegoating the immigrants, another bold move. Drowning men reach for anything.
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What I don't understand is how a grown man can stand in the gaze of the public and believe he's "making a difference" with that twaddle.
Take a peak at the communities.go.uk web site.
It shows that, in England the number of building completions by Registered Social Landlords in 2008/09 was 25,380. The TOTAL completions by Local Authorities was 520. That's right - 520 completions across all the local authorities in England.
So, Brown is REALLY going to make a difference to the housing market if he can miraculously find land in suitable polaces, force through planning consent and give money to Local Authorities to build houses.
Of course, most authorities don't build, so they'll have to find commercial (private) partners to do the job. Best guess - it will take 2/3 years to make any difference.
Then guess what... According to the Office of National Statistics, of the 1.1MIL jobs created in the private sector since 1997, 85 percent went to people not born in the UK. So we'll probably see more EU influx to build houses that Brown wants "prioritised" to meet "Local" demand - whatever that means!
(By the way, I only used the official figures for England as I don't believe the Brown way forward has any impact in Scotland. Not even sure his "vision" extends to Wales.)
It's all getting too much of a shambles.
Our current government couldn't deliver a proverbial in a brewery. They could discuss it, hold "public consultations", issue White Papers, Green Papers, legislate for it (badly), raise money via taxes or borrowing then spin it into orbit - but then find after millions of expenditure that they really shouldn't as it could breach 'Elf and Safety regulations...
Just check out the initiative success rate. Brown has been on about creating apprenticeships for years. As far as I can see, from official statistics, we are currently running about 250,000 places BEHIND what has already been promised.
If private companies are shrinking, exactly what jobs will the young unemployed going to be forced to accept or lose benefits? Pray God not another load of make-weight public service nonsense positions.
There is absolutely nothing truly positive in the way of delivery to justify the vast tax burden and money-spraying that Blair and Brown have imposed on the UK population over a decade, compared with the spend involved.
I'm still waiting for Brown to repair the damage he did by withdrawing the 10p tax band and shoving millions of people into a dependency/claims nightmare.
If Brown did go back to teaching (which he seemed to suggest, then recanted) I hope he'll do it somewhere far away. Ideally in a country with no simultaneous translation capability.
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Shows how desperate Brown is - he is trying to win back the BNP vote in Labour heartlands with more promises he cannot possibly keep. First we had "British Jobs For British Workers", not only illegal under EU law, but look where it got us, with workers trying to take the PM at his word. Now we have a "something" (unspecific) to try to persuade people that new immigrants and asylum seekers won't be able to queue jump on the housing ladder.
Oh come on Brown, give up your lies and spin - resign and let the people decide in a much needed General Election!
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I find these proposals so out of character with Labour policies (e.g they contain a little commonsense)
therefore they must be like everything else Labour have promised, !!pie in the sky!! I must say they have no shame and will certainly not honour any of it.
the sooner they are out of office the better
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I believe this weeks relaunch about as much as I believe all the other legion labour relaunches, from British jobs for British workers, through scrapping the 10p tax band not affecting the poor to any labour MP that has abused the expenses system will be sacked. NONE of these were true. The serial "flipper", Mr Darling, is still in a job, so that was more lies.
Brown is incapable of the simple act of telling the truth. The Government has run out of money and we are taxed until our pips' pips have squeaked. The ONLY way to fund his latest massive waste of expenditure is through massive and crippling tax rises. So either Brown is going to cut the number of nurses and teachers and doctors and the police, OR Brown is going to kill any prospects of a recovery stone cold dead with swingeing tax rises, or (more likely) he will be forced to do both. It never occurs to him to actually cut waste and scrap useless, pen-pushing quangos does it? No he won't hack into his client state, masses of feckless drains on the productive sector, all employed at way over the average wage in labour strongholds.
Brown's statement today was just more of the same old lousy labour lies. Can't believe a word that feckless, pathological liar says.
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82. At 7:51pm on 29 Jun 2009, doctordisraeli wrote:
Yes, thank you, yellowbelly. Two more consignments to Germany today.
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That's good to hear in these difficult times, so the VAT reduction has been a real help to your exports then?
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Ruth kelly claim for burst pipe. Apparently excluded by her Insurer for non-occupancy. Policies normally state it has to be 30 or 60 days without any occupancy. Does that mean she never even went to 2nd home for maybe 2 months!!!!!
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83. At 7:52pm on 29 Jun 2009, ghostofsichuan wrote:
Political promises, now there is something you can count on. I believe all the bankers were employed at the time of bad loans and other financial misdealings. I would present that they did more damage than the unemployed and are the reason many are unemployed. It would be good to see people at work, seems odd that the taxpayers will foot the bill as most think of employment in other sectors. Drop out of school and get a job, that is a slogan a party can run on. The day-shift will dig the hole and the night-shift can fill it back in. I guess some crumbs are left over after the bailouts. Scapegoating the immigrants, another bold move. Drowning men reach for anything.
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A council worker was working in a suburban street, digging holes at regular intervals.
Half an hour later, another council worker came along, and filled in those same holes.
When asked what was the point of the exercise, the worker replied that his colleague who normally plants the trees was off sick that day.
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I don't understand why labour are blatantly stealing BNP policies, as sound-bites, when they do not have to courage, decency or honesty to do what is actually required to legally implement them as policies.
The disillusioned ex-labour voters that support the BNP realise that in order to actually implement "British jobs for British workers", or "Local homes for local people", that we will have to withdraw from the EU first and foremost. So long as labour are a very willing supine slave to the EU, then NONE of their "local" or "Pro-British" policies can be implemented.
The BNP supporters know this and will NOT be taken in by labour's blatantly infantile, childish patronising. They are taking people for fools!
Anyone that falls for this latest labour re-launch, needs their head examining.
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#63, JohnMallerstang
John, There are plenty of people who write stuff about things they just don't like about government actions.
I've no special allegiance to any party. I don't like the culture of spin that Mandelson/Campbell used to propel and keep Blair and Brown in office. (It's odd now to hear them bleat about the press not listening to and respecting govrenment statements, when so many "statements" are simply wind, to be followed by bad legislation, minimal delivery and with little correlation between the tax/borrowing involved and the real outcome.
Way back in the 1990s, Brown said he'd have a bonfire of the QANGOs. So how many more unchallengeable organisations do we have now?
Too many people seem to think that politics is just about ideas. It isn't - it's about how you turn ideas into something worthwhile and affordable by the population.
Give you an example: ID cards. I have severe reservations, as the current plan is not based on DNA (which I wouldn't really want, anyway!). ALL other methods have flaws. The government has tried to extol the benefits by praying advantages in all sorts of ways. But the worst and most damaging thing is that nobody has worked out how much it's going to cost to provide readers across every port, bank, shop etc in the UK. There's no point having a card (which the law says you don't have to carry anyway), unless people can check it. So if it's going to cut crime, security etc etc, how is that going to work unless every possible point where a check is required is NOT equipped with a reading capability? Maybe you have found some evidence of the proposed costs. I certainly haven't been able to.
That's not bile. Not anti any party. Just curiosity as a tax payer as to what benefits may be achieved and what the total bill could rise to.
BTW, I have no doubt at all that, if the ID database exists, it WILL be hacked into and all the pertinent data will end up with a name that isn't that of the true owner.
I'd like less innitiatives, less forcing of "political personalities" into everyday lives, fewer laws (so we can work out which ones we broke today that we actually have no clue about), and a bit more focus on delivering somethin of value to the community. Just happen to think we have wasted a huge amount of public money over a decade. It appals me that some of the worst perpetrators have sidled off into private companies. (Can you believe Pat(ronising) Hewitt is going to be the senior non-executive director at BT? This the lady who oversaw stupid negotiations with the medical professionals and forced them to accept more than they required...)
I'd like a part time parliament. BUT one that actually had to examine every new law and regulation (from Westminster or Brussels) in detail before allowing another mass of nonsense to strangle businesses which should be allowed to create profits and contribute to tax take.
I don't like Brown. He pretends to economic and financial competence. The records show something different.
Still fairlyopen though.
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@43. At 5:44pm on 29 Jun 2009, flamepatricia wrote:
This is an odd website:
isgordonbrownstillprimeminister.com
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I think that the above website is not finished. It should say, "tragically, yes, but in name only. We all know that the unelected Mandy is the real leader of labour now."
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RE 63. JohnMallerstang
"It's hardly worth bothering to read - or post - comments here; it seems to be monopolised by some sort of permanent far-right Tory commentariat. They all sound the same - mostly insults and hatred."
Fair enough. Maybe you could help me with something that genuinely puzzles me. No bile. No rude nicknames for the Labour party or the Prime Minister. Just this one question.
Gordon Brown insists that there will be no cuts in public expenditure under a Labour government. None now and none in future. Yet just about everyone, including the Treasury's own figures, say that isn't true and public spending cuts are inevitable. So my question is this. When the Prime Minister says these things is he
a) Correct.
b) Sincere, but wrong.
c) Blatantly lying.
It's not an academic question.
If the answer is a) then he's an economic genius of a sort the planet seldom sees - uniquely able to see the one true path when everyone else is lost.
If the answer is b) then he's a sort of Mr Bean character. Nice enough chap. Doesn't mean any harm, but clueless. He should step aside and make way for someone competent.
If it's c) then he's, well, what can I say? Every bile-filled insult ever thrown at him is fully justified, and indeed a whole lot more.
What do you reckon? If you pick a) I'd certainly be interested to hear why you think that.
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@ 50. At 6:01pm on 29 Jun 2009, irmster wrote:
So the clear choice at the election is Tory cuts versus Labour completely bankrupting the country.
I don't think the British electorate are that stupid. Brown is now so desperate, he feels that misleading the country is the only avenue left to him.
Where's the moral compass gone Gordo?"
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Almost correct. It is between timid tory cuts, or massive labour tax rises. Even the tories do not have the guts to cut as much as is desperately needed. I have not hear anything from Cameron about slashing the size of Government. Throughout history, countries run by tiny, unobtrusive government's thrived. When Governments became too big, totalitarianism, war and holocausts followed. (Stalin, Mao, Hitler etc...) We should be quickly going in the opposite direction to those vile regimes.
Labour are heading towards these vile regimes. Or does anyone seriously believe that this country is LESS like National Socialism today than in 1997? That we have more freedom? smaller Government? more efficient public services?
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MOATS MORTGAGES AND MAYHEM
Never thought I would call Nick Robinson naive. But he seems not to realise that every party politician has PASSED THE IGNOMINY TEST by signing up as a rosette stand. To sell out constituency and self to a party (any party) speaks for itself. To submit to the whipping system speaks more.
Sorry Nick, some may be good spuds for a chat, but SOMETHING made them sell their souls on day one, and some rise to become SOULLESS PRIME MINISTERS giving us WEIRDNESS WASTE AND WAR.
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Liars! Untruthful! Thieves!
It is pretty bizarre to read Labour and Tory supporting bloggers on here slugging it out to 'prove' that the opposition are worse than their lot.
As an independent, I'd say that there really isn't much to choose between either of them.
Neither party really deserve to have any significant sort of representation after the next General Election and I hope they do not.
You may say I'm a dreamer but sometimes dreams come true.
They certainly need to for the English.
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For goodness sake, Gordon Brown has had more visions than someone who regularly consumes magic mushrooms. We have heard his rhetoric and the lies before and have had enough. Does he think that our heads zip up the back or something? Does he really believe that we are so stupid as to buy into this latest line in rehashed codswallop? While I don't much fancy the idea of a Tory Government, I don't want Gordon Brown either. Time he was gone I reckon.
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Brown can publish as many manifestos as he wants; hardly anybody's listening to him, and the few who are don't believe a word he says.
spend more...more debt....let's just borrow as much as we can before the tories get in...let's ruin the country because it'll make the tories' life awkward and that'll be fun to watch after we've lost all our seats...
Brown/labour; just give up and go home before you do any more damage to the country please. We've had enough of your scorched earth policies and lies.
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Gordon Brown is dragging the Labour party into the abyss, and by failing - twice! - to remove him, they have thrown away any right to a 'future'.
http://richardbooth.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/gordons-on-the-rocks-but-the-tide-hasnt-yet-claimed-him/
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@ whistling neil 56 - LOL
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@49, JohnConstable, re the English pressure cooke that must surely blow soon, hopefully at the next general election....
Hear hear... but what are you doing to encourage the English to vote in numbers great enough to make a difference? Make no mistake, there ARE enough of us to sack enough labour, tory and liberal MP's to make a difference and to take our country back. In fact looking at the figures, if the English frustrated ex-voters and non-voters agreed to vote for the same candidate, for example, the English Democrats, or UKIP or BNP, or a local independent, then they would win a massive landslide. And that is if not one tory, labour or liberal supporter changed sides. We frustrated English people outnumber the combined tory, labour and liberal voters by at least 2 to one.
Labour are a vile bunch of lying, incompetent traitors. The tories are better, but not by much, and the liberals have no policies other than, "We will do whatever our unelected masters in Brussels tell us to do."
So who to vote for?
I am setting up a website to help. At nonvoters.org, I am trying to encourage the dissilusioned, frustrated and pi**ed off ex voters to actually get out and vote. NOT spoil papers, NOT write, none of the above... Becuase for ONCE, we finally, really have the numbers, we finally CAN legally, democratically and peacefully overthrow the anti-UK traitors and elect people who will put THIS country first, FOR ONCE!
If you know people who are pi**ed off at the troughers in the Commons, people who are sick of the growing EU dictatorship, and people who would happily vote "none of the above" Tell them about nonvoters.org, and let's do something positive.
Let's use our vote as a very effective weapon against the traitors, thieves, liars, and war-criminals in Parliament and take OUR country BACK!
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Gordon Brown is deliberately steering his government onto the rocks because he does not want to make the cuts in public service that will have to take place or make the necessary massive increases in tax caused by New Labour's mismanagement.
It is fairly unlikely that New Labour will be re-elected.Instead he will force David Cameron to make the cuts so that New Labour can jeer at the Conservatives as they take the necessary remedial action.
Unfortunately, this means that no action will be taken immediately to address Britain's economic problems and debts so they will inevitably get worse.Strange that his Presbyterian sensibilities which were offended by the ripoff expenses of errant MPs are not offended by the prospect that thousands of people who will lose their jobs or go through financial hardship while he and his government sit twiddling their thumbs.
It is political cowardice of the highest order and smacks of fiddling while Rome burns.
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I see, when the BNP talk of immigrants jumping the queue for housing, and when they want local homes for local people, they are a bunch of ignorant racists. But when Labour is slumping in the polls and the BNP start doing well then "local homes for local people" isn't a racist jingle any more?
And when the Tories talk about forcing the unemployed to work they are the nasty party, but when Labour is slumping in the polls and the Tories are doing rather well then "work or lose benefit" suddenly shifts from being nasty to being common sense?
Come on Gordon, we're not stupid. You'll never get past the army of (Labour-created) do-gooders who wring their hands on everyone else's behalf and explain why so-and-so can't possibly be expected to actually work for a living.
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Tell you what Gordon, why don't you promise to double the State pension?
Whats a few more billions on the slate?
At least the pensioners will spend it, and not put it in an ISA
Our present unelected PM is off his trolley. Lord Mandelson, please put him out of his misery.
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#94, posts like that make me wish there was a Recommend button here.
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@61 pandatank
Actually I think you will find we got rid of the tories because of 'sleaze'. You know, minor sexual indiscretions with bondage queens rent boys etc. Personally I couldn't care less what politicians do in their private lives, it's how good they are at their job that matters, why is who they sleep with any concern of ours?
Since that time Labour have shown us the true meaning of the word sleaze, but also demonstrated that they are utterly incapable of managing anything more complex than a charity shop.
Which of these is the better option?
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Isn't he good.
Isn't he great.
Gordon's going to take the bread off your plate.
Low savings rates,
Cash he creates,
Gordon's housing the British people in crates.
The world Immigrates,
We're Islamic states!
Gordon needs minorities in the UK, to be his mates.
Extreme Labour traits,
We now know our fates.
Gordon steals our votes, Iranian style, and dictates.
Yes to Britain.
I have many friends from many different nations around the world.
It is not racist to expect your government to preserve your national identity.
Yes to Christmas, Yes to Christianity, Yes to Easter, Yes to Fish and Chips.
Yes to Fair Play and tolerance.
No to BNP and racism
No to Labour Dictatorship.
No to forced labour leftist, multi-culturism, separation and isolationism.
Lets end Labours indoctrination by Political correctness.
Its time to stop being ashamed of being British.
Get out Brown, we didn't vote for you.
Never wanted you and never will.
The alternative is total devolution and an English parliament.
Either way, Brown is history.
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... do you remember that Clown election slogan, a while back ... the 2005 campaign, I think it was ... "Are You Thinking What We're Thinking?"
ghastly, wasn't it?
well, "Local Homes For Local People" has that sort of ring to it - could do without it, to be honest, hope it dies a death - sop to racist sentiment - don't mind a bit of sopping, but not that sort - "our children and our children's children" are not well served by such slogans
oh, and if JR Perry is on the blog, I've explained a little more about the CAM SCAM at 120 on "MMM" - not chapter and verse (since didn't want to risk getting moderated) but, still ...
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Bloggers have their views and we must respect them as such.
Then we have people who are acknowledged experts in their fields and today I have read a piece from the economist Roger Bootle.
Bootle tends to be a pessimistic fellow and predicted dire consequences for the housing market, for, well, years before they actually dived.
But in his piece, in the Telegraph (I can't call it the Torygraph anymore since the expenses scandal) he reminds us that Gordon Browns 'golden rule' has evaporated and that the ratio of public sector debt, under current plans, will not fall back below 40% (golden rule limit) until ... 2035.
Bootle examines the ramifications of this (not at all pleasant) but to save you time reading Bootles piece, don't rush out and fix your mortgage rate if you are on something like a BBR tracker.
Because I believe Bootle when he says that he believes interest rates will stay relatively low for many years, irrespective of who is governing the country.
Bootle points out that the last time we found ourselves in this position, it was the 1930's and then interest rates were kept low for a very long time, apart from the exceptional years of WWII and Bootle says that this time around low rates could last for up to five years.
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#62.
Even a BNP-UKIP coalition could probably run the country better than the current bunch of incompetents.
I find myself thinking the contents of my chiller cabinet could run the country better than this cabinet.
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@111, I think the contents of a baby's soiled nappy could run the country better than the current lot.
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The future of the labour party is going to end if they dont do something about it, after all the scandels Gordon Brown is just brushing it off and hoping that no one will notice. Where as the david Cameron looks like he is doing something about it and he seems honest (WOW thats new for a polition) but if he is actually going to do anything, well i guess we will see with the way the labour party is heading
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Gordon is a liar, he cannot tell the truth.
Gordon is a thief, 10p tax, so uncouth,
Gordon is a bully, he revels in his power,
Gordon is a coward, from election he did cower,
Britain needs him out, its very plain to see.
We all hope at election, for a Cameron victory.
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@Purpledoggz
Commendable, I admire your dedication to the cause, I will certainly spread the word where I can. Political apathy is by nature incredibly difficult to combat though.
Who will you be pushing for? My preference would be the English democrats, but I'm not convinced there is any party that would combine all teh policies required to save this country.
We need leaders of vision and integrity and they are sadly lacking, in their absence I am currently planning to vote Tory as an infinite improvement on the current shower.
However, if someone comes out and promises to extract us from the EU, give us an english parliament, slash public sector spending by 20%, cancel all public sector final salary pensions, reduce the size of parliament, dismantle quangos, re-introduce corporal punishment in schools, repeal the human rights act, remove all foreign criminals from this country, give compulsory contraceptive injections to anyone living on benefits, canecel ID cards & any IT project Labour have ever even imgained and of course freeze immigration that would get my vote!
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lol @zim, what planet are you from again? Your species obviously see very clearly and your poetic mode of communication is interesting...
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Our Prime Minister is a disgrace, this announcement is nothing more than a bribe, even the Guardian has dismissed it as nothing more than a rehash of announcements already made.
Mr Brown is a liar, he has no moral compass, he is nothing more than a busted flush, the sooner he is gone the better this country will be.
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So the funding for these new proposals are coming from 'existing budgets' rather than new money - but we're not told which existing budgets have been cut to release the funds. In the meantime, Gordon Brown keeps on repeating his mantra of Labour investment versus Tory cuts even though the facts say otherwise.
I wonder who will be the first of the Downing Street correspondents to point out to the PM that he cannot go on lying to the British people and get away with it. Or maybe I am asking for too much.
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"Building Britain's Future" well Mr Brown now may i ask who was the chancellor ex checker and who caused the extreme damage to this nation???
how many people forgot not me!
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Young people who refuse the offer of a government-created job - after being unemployed for more than a year - will face having their benefit docked.
This is similar to a Tory employment requirement of the 80's and early 90's
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So prudence , having been the chancellor for 10 years failed to get a grip of the regulation of the banks, whilst the Government has presided over a period when immigrants have been given more rivghts to housing than the indigenous people; and we have been hearing about the latter for years. Guess where this will principally apply? yep you got it, south of the border down Edinbrough way. Now what does this suggest, the Scots are going to vote SNP rather than Labour so he needs English votes. You may have noticed the Armed forces day. A new take on supporting the armed forces he has so denuded of capital celebrating the hope of the odd vote or two. Frankly anyone who votes for him must need his head examining
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Nothing about rebalancing the economy and improving financial services sector regulation then.......
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WORSE I'M AFRAID - IT'S 'D'. JAMES BROWN IS 'SPLIT' (#94)
Some people split (as in Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde) to deal with inner turmoil. Brown is one such. His behaviour can only get more bizarre now that he is a paddle-free creekster.
The party selection system ensures a collection of 'poor in spirit' MPs from whom the most unsuitable BUT MOST DRIVEN BY NEED, rise to the top.
QED
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But its not jobs is it, its jobs or training, and as training is cheaper, it will be training of some very low quality with bugger all relevance to what is actually needed in the workplace.
but a box ticked for El'Gormless and his Gran Vizier Mandy.
Bah - an election now please
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#102 purpleDogzzz
I'm 100% behind your proposal.
Remember!
Make it clear
Make it clearly voteable
and keep repeating the mantra alive on these posts.
Follow the 8D approach!
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I love the spin... "take a Government sponsored job or have your benefit docked" which is quite different to "take a .... job OR a training scheme or have your benefit docked". No guaranteed employment then not even for someone who has been out of work for a year - how refreshingly different....
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despise @ 115
if someone comes out and promises to extract us from the EU, give us an english parliament, slash public sector spending by 20%, cancel all public sector final salary pensions, reduce the size of parliament, dismantle quangos, re-introduce corporal punishment in schools, repeal the human rights act, remove all foreign criminals from this country, give compulsory contraceptive injections to anyone living on benefits, cancel ID cards & any IT project Labour have ever even imgained and of course freeze immigration that would get my vote!
sorry, he died in 45 ... late April time, I think it was
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leoRoverman @ 121
I did notice, belatedly, the Armed Forces day.
Unfortunately, I suspect it actually has very little indeed to do with the Armed Forces per se, and much more to do with politicians trying to keep the notion of a 'United Kingdom' alive.
Readers may recall a phase of politicians banging on about 'Britishness' and 'Britain', and they also introduced 'British' citizenship ceremonies for immigrants.
I asked a local Town Hall official in my area about this citizenship ceremony.
He gave a deep sigh and said "Well, I suppose we'll have to do something about it as the Government have requested it".
Yes, that's the spirit (not).
I am afraid the Governemnt seem to be flogging a dead horse.
You cannot mandate something if the people (English - in this specific case) simply do not believe in it (anymore).
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82. At 7:51pm on 29 Jun 2009, doctordisraeli wrote:
Yes, thank you, yellowbelly. Two more consignments to Germany today.
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I'm really curious, what are you selling/sending to Germany?
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114 Zim
Surely the last line should have ended with a question mark ?
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103. At 9:08pm on 29 Jun 2009, newshounduk wrote:
Gordon Brown is deliberately steering his government onto the rocks because he does not want to make the cuts in public service that will have to take place or make the necessary massive increases in tax caused by New Labour's mismanagement.
It is fairly unlikely that New Labour will be re-elected.Instead he will force David Cameron to make the cuts so that New Labour can jeer at the Conservatives as they take the necessary remedial action.
Unfortunately, this means that no action will be taken immediately to address Britain's economic problems and debts so they will inevitably get worse.Strange that his Presbyterian sensibilities which were offended by the ripoff expenses of errant MPs are not offended by the prospect that thousands of people who will lose their jobs or go through financial hardship while he and his government sit twiddling their thumbs.
It is political cowardice of the highest order and smacks of fiddling while Rome burns.
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I don't think it is cowardice, I think it is hatred and revenge, against us all probably, because he beleives we ruined his dream. Sadly his dream was my nightmare, and it loks as though it isn't going to get better soon. Still I'm so fed up of them all, I hope we can kick the lot of them out.
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I am a little confused - could someone please explain to me why the document linked from this blog and on the No.10 website seems to be from two months ago? Is this actually a new document?? Or rehashed announcements?
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Greetings xT @ 130.
My evil, err .. cunning, plan to supplant Gormless Gordo with Captain Cameron is revealed.
There is no question.
Cameron will conquer all.
Long live Invader-Dave.
Brown and his Brown cabinet are destined to be worm food on Drob Prime.
Drob worms are definitely not fussy about who or what they eat.
They will even eat Brownites, despite their personal hygiene problems and faecal incrustations.
Invader-Dave is but the first of my subordinates to be given a position of power.
Mark my word.. there will be more many more muhaahahaha.
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Sorry I have found the real paper now - still not sure how much in it is new
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I think the following cartoon captures my feelings about Duffs - building Britains future.
Peter Brookes cartoon in the Times
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purpleDogzz @ 102
You ask what am I doing to encourage the English to vote in numbers great enough to make a difference, which is a fair question.
In my very limited way, I try to spend some time promoting, mainly through web blogs, the idea that we English do have political power, if we choose to use it.
I suspect that many potential voters have absolutely no idea of the power that they hold, so I welcome your initiative via the 'non-voter' website.
Each of us tries to do our bit for what we believe in and ideas are very powerful things.
I have been encouraged in my belief that one day, the English will run their own country.
The signs are there, the widespread disillusionment with the mainstream parties, the beginnings of more representative groups, such as the English Democrats and the gathering pace of representation for 'full independence' parties in Scotland (SNP) and Wales (Plaid).
Good luck with the website, I hope the idea gains traction because more independents are needed to ensure that Parliament produces better outcomes.
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#72 doctordisraeli
Don't go away, please keep reading. If you stick around long enough, one or two Labour supporters offer up eloquent and thought provoking arguments. Sure, they're in a diminishing minority, but worth giving the courtesy of reading and responding to. I think you'll find the regular or otherwise contributors here are fairly typical of the country at large. That is to say, far from being Tory party stooges, an increasing number of citizens are fed up to the back teeth with the Labour party spin machine, a Prime Minister deeply and very obviously out of his depth, and desperate for change.
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Now Brown has raised the School leaving age to 18, and his Government are going to find a placement for ALL the young Unemployed when they reach 25 Years of Age.
Therefore, their are going to be alot of young Adults walking the Streets between the Ages of 18 to 25 Years in Browns vision of Building in the future for a wasteful tomorrow in every-day Britain.
I wonder how many Brain cells Brown used in dreaming this nonsense up.
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Dear Nick,
Could you please inform me/public about the alleged fraud regarding, the Department for Work and Pensions quangos, for example 'WorkDirections'?
Ant - Birmingham
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The truth!
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Okay.
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All this stuff about council houses gives me a sense of deja vu. Gordo said much the same when he was installed as PM. If we had started building then perhaps our construction industry would be in a better state.
Local homes for local people? Doesn't GB realise that is not why the BNP did well? The BNP did well because there are no homes for anyone unless you can afford to buy and the price of private rental is crazy.
The working class in many parts of this country have been totally ignored by "New" Labour. If he and, sad to say, many of the political correspondents spent more time in a local pub (outside of the metropolis) and less in the subsidised bars in parliament they may realise this.
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#109 sagamix
Good point.
Is the "Local homes for local people" a very 'clever' rewording of that great previous Brownism "local jobs for local workers"? I mean, the latter was a great success wasn't it?! Lol. The words blunder and withdrawal spring to mind.
This man and his party have really lost it, if they ever had it at all.
Why not try "local services for local people"? After all, The League of Gentleman was a very popular TV series with the same sort of disgusting of people that now inhabit Millbank. Surely another bandwagon ready to be jumped on by NuLabour.
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@ saga 127
Ah, there's that razor lefty wit.
Has it ever occured to you that the failed policies of your beloved Labour are directly responsible for an increase in more extreme right wing views?
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Looks like the death throes of Labour. Unfortunately it is a slow, lingering death....
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"Stick a red rose on the front and it could be a Labour manifesto."
Nick I was sure that you initially wrote "stick a red nose on the front". If I am wrong you failed to highlight that this government funded Labour Party manifesto is the biggest joke so far.
Listening to Balls this morning on the Today programme I have come to the conclusion that his name sums up his thought process. How much longer are Labour going to continue pretending that everything in the economic garden is coming up roses?
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# 131 The Englishman wrote: "I don't think it is cowardice, I think it is hatred and revenge, against us all probably, because he believes we ruined his dream. Sadly his dream was my nightmare, and it looks as though it isn't going to get better soon. Still I'm so fed up of them all, I hope we can kick the lot of them out."
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Sadly, I think you are right - Brown is like Hitler in his bunker denouncing the country which has "let him down" - he wants to bring us all crashing down in flames with him. He must be stopped - call an election now! I for one would take to the streets to get this appalling, wicked government to stand down - if only the English weren't so complacent!
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We are in years 2 and 3 of the last spending review, Ed Balls (statred on Today) that he has FULL funding for his changes to be anounced today (based on yesterdays anouncement).
WOW these idears did not exist at the last spending review yet the year before an election, in the middle of the largest financial crisis, Ed Balls suddenly can find the Cash for Gordans plans.
Luckly he did admit on Today that it weill be up to the chancoller at the next spending review (aftyer the election) to see IF there will be ANY available funds to carry on Gordans Election Spend.
Where did he cut his budget to afford to do Gordans Plans? OR are they to be funded by PFI, or more borrowing, or by CUTs in other departments (like the new councle houses being funded by cuts in the Home Office and the an other department as admitted by Lord Mandlsonh yesterday)
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"53. At 6:11pm on 29 Jun 2009, Boilerplated wrote:
#51. At 6:04pm on 29 Jun 2009, jolo13 wrote:
"i notice among the micky mouse finances GB is spending 2 billion to build 100,000 new hoses....that is 20,000 pounds per house....that would not even buy the plot of land!"
Who said about buying land, who said anything about buying the bricks etc, marvellous things government bonds - they work just like IOU notes, in fact they are IOU notes, to be converted in to real money (if and) when the economy recovers, of course they will have a face value so that they can also be traded like Credit Default Swaps....oh hang on, isn't that were we came in?!"
Boilerplated, the statement was not about how he would borrow the miney it was questioning the fact that even if the building plots are aqquired at ZERO cost, AND Gordan supplies 2 Billion he can NOT build 100000 houses, that is unless he is actually borrowing a LOT more and the 2 Billion is just the Interest payments to cover the building period before tenents start paying rent!
Either Gordan is lieing about the amount of borrowing or the number of houses.
But then in his 97 and 98 budgets Gordan stated that his policies would prevent house price inflation and the voters needed to realise that house prices would from now on rise with inflation and that allowing massive house price inflation ALWAYS led to boom and bust!
Gordans Buy to Let tax advantages and raiding of pensions was the major cause of house price inflation and UK prices let to price inflation across France and Spain. But of cause by then this was not a bad thing and was a major feel good factor and sign of how well his policies were working.
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Sorry Nick but you need to get out a bit more - beyond the street that links the criminal classes "work" place to bunker number ten.
Watch my lips - Laburr has NO future.
And the Gordun Laurel and Holytony Hardy duo's corrupt incompetence will go down in the history books as the reason for the destruction of Laburr.
What a wonderful prospect.
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UK GDP -4.9% year on year and Ed Balls the wanabee chancellor is busy blustering on about the rights of children.
Is it any wonder the whole of the UK has simply developed a tin ear to a government that has a tin ear for them?
Look at the crowds watching Wimbledon and tell me we need a newlabour multi cultural agenda. It's all shapes, sizes, genders and colours. I've never seen such a good advert for why this country has always been such a good example to the world.
How typical of Gordon Brown to attemp a relaunch on the day he would be swept off the front pages by the new roof at Wimbledon being closed.
People just don't care two hoots for newlabour and their agendas and targets anymore.
Call an election.
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WOW....
Yet another Gordan Proposed Policy Dropped!
"MPs' code of conduct plan dropped"
So much for his clean up of politics!
In the Last few days
Collage Building Program put on HOLD
Cuts in departemts to re-allocate funds
Spending Review Dropped till after Election
MPs' code of conduct plan dropped
Not doing very well is he
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#127 sagamix.
Well, there you have it. Labour's approach over the last 12 years has been to deride anyone who doesn't agree with them as a racist, fascist bigot. No need to debate with them, argue with them or listen to them. No need to try and understand their thoughts, their frustrations, their worries. If they do not agree with your agenda, it must be them that is wrong. Can't be you, no sirree.
And while the country and economy collapses, carry on blustering away that you have somehow achieved something brilliant...."I have saved the world", say it loud enough and you can start to believe it. Meanwhile, real people, living their real lives are in dire conditions. The UK economy faces years of cuts and tax rises to get us out of the mess you have created. No problem though. So long as you have your protected pensions, it won't affect you.....
For many people, the word 'disgrace' would mean something. Not to you though. Not to you.
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My thoughts are this, these are not new policies for the Labour Government to stay in office otherwise we would have had a spending review and they would have shown where the money is coming from. This is a plan for them when they are out of office. Brown will spend as much money as possible before the the next election leaving the incoming Government to deal with the fallout. If the Conservatives then get in Government and it is inevitable they will have to cuts in public spending and raise taxes, not just on the rich but everybody, Labour can then say this would never have happened under a Labour Government, thus they will give the illusion of spending to the bitter end. They can then say this is what you get whenever you elect the Conservatives. This has always worked in the past as we see from the Thatcher years where the restriction on spending was brought about by an outgoing Labour Government, putting Thatcher in the position of the clear up in the economy. We really only recovered as a Country by 1997 and our economy was in perfect balance for the first time in recent years. We then had unpresidented growth which we could have used to reform our services, improve our infrastructure and get people back to work in the real economy. It is not just in Government therefore we need a new way of thinking, it is in our society, which must start to understand that the money must be earned before it can be spent. You must restrict public spending in the good years as to be able to spend as necessary and keep the economy in balance in the bad. With this crisis just the opposite has happened.
You see Brown does not care that he has destroyed peoples lives. He knows he can go on and get his big fat pension probably sit on the board of some company and write his awful books that someone will buy. He does not care that even in the public sector, his voting base, he has built up unsustainable levels of unnecessary jobs which will have to be cut. This is not important to him, he believes beating the Conservatives and his phoney class war are much more important. We, the public, have just been his instruments to beat the Conservatives with.
The Labour Party need to be very sure they are the ones who lose the next election under their present strategy. If they happen to win the difficulties will fall on their heads, unless of course they turn us into a third world Country.
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According to the Treasury's own figures social security benefits are projected to be higher than income tax receipts next year (165 billion against 140 billion).
This is not sustainable.
Yet still the Labour Ship of Fools sails on.
The next Government should implement a Brown/Balls Debt Tax to illustrate how seriously the Labour Government have damaged the economy. This tax will need to raise at least 100 billion a year (60 billion to meet debt interest payments, and probably significantly more than 40 billion a year to pay off the debt). On latest projections this tax may need to run until 2035.
So this tax will appear as an item in everyone's wage bill for over 25 years.
There should also be an electronic debt clock in major cities to show the national debt, total and per person.
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63. At 6:36pm on 29 Jun 2009, JohnMallerstang wrote:
It's hardly worth bothering to read - or post - comments here; it seems to be monopolised by some sort of permanent far-right Tory commentariat. They all sound the same - mostly insults and hatred. Do they pay them to lurk in various comment spaces to keep up a constant attack on "nulabour" (as they often seem to call it) as liars (or worse). They usually also claim that the BBC is a Labour outpost - although it certainly doesn't feel like that to anyone who is even slightly to the left of Ghengis Khan. This isn't political comment, it's mostly just bile.
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- this sentiment in its various forms is quite common on the blogs. What Labour apologists don't appear to understand is that their lot has been in Government for over 12 years now - that means any problems which have been created are their problems. You see, Labour is the established Government party, so those of us (and there are many) who are sick and tired of the direction this country has been taken in, are bound to blame Labour. The same would happen to the Conservatives if they had been in power for 12 years.
I am no Conservative Central Office stooge - I am an independent IT contractor who realised what a charlatan Brown is when he introduced IR35 as a press attachment to his 1999 Budget - any sympathy I may have felt with New Labour completely evaporated then. The same goes for the millions who have been disillusioned, ignored, traduced and trashed on by this Government over the years. Put simply, it is time for a change!
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This is a last ditch attempt for Gordon to save Gordon.
It won't work.
These are things they should have done years ago and they didn't so why do they think they can squeeze it in before an election (which they won't win anyway?).
Oh do us all a favour - and yourself - and just give up please, Gordon.
You are out of touch, cloistered for years with your ideals and ambitions. You wanted a leading role on the world's stage whilst forgetting the people of THIS COUNTRY. OUR COUNTRY.
Give yourself a break, Gordon, catch that train up to Scotland.
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According to a report published today by the Local Government Association one million young people will not be in education, training or work this year.
Remember this figure next time you hear Labour ministers laud their own efforts to deal with the recession, get on with the job, do whatever it takes, etc. etc.
Labour's tax, borrow, and spend economic model (and the social structure it gives rise to) is broken.
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The BBC summary of Brown's statement to the Commons said:
"Among pledges he told MPs investment in housing would be trebled to £2.1bn, funding 110,000 new affordable homes to rent or buy over the next two years and creating 45,000 jobs in construction."
However...
In the Building Britain's Future documents on hmg website, under the responsibility of John Denham, the following statements appear:
"An additional £1.5 billion will be invested over the next 2 years to deliver 20,000 new affordable homes, creating 45,000 jobs in the construction and related sectors.
In addition to action to make homes more affordable, over the next two years we will build 20,000 new energy efficient social and affordable homes.
To ensure that house-building picks up rapidly in a recovery, we are investing an extra £1.2 billion this year on housing, including £500 million of new money to support housing construction in local communities, and have introduced a stamp duty holiday on property sold for £175,000 or less."
So Brown says he's funding 110,000 affordable new homes, but Denham - and the official document - says 20,000.
If the government website is accurate, GBP1.5BIL would build 20,000 homes at a unit cost of around GBP75,000. Sounds feasible.
So how will Gordon deliver another 90,000 affordable homes with just an additional GBP600MIL? That's less than GBP7,000 a pop.
Of course. Silly me! HMG old caravan and camping sites...
Does anyone wonder why people doubt the veracity of a government that uses different financial data in different situations?
And seems to just pluck numbers from the air - confident that illusory statistics will no doubt be forgotten over a short period, while some other headline grabbing "initiative" will soon be rolling down the road.
The government may congratulate itself on lifting educational standards, while so many children still leave education barely literate or numerate. But some of the old fogeys can actually both read and calculate tolerably well. This one calculates that G.Brown will either quit parliament in 2010, or wish he hadn't argued against MPs having second jobs!
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Labour.
Local poverty for local people.
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147. At 08:21am on 30 Jun 2009, crowdedisland wrote:
...Brown is like Hitler in his bunker denouncing the country which has "let him down" - he wants to bring us all crashing down in flames with him. He must be stopped - call an election now! I for one would take to the streets to get this appalling, wicked government to stand down - if only the English weren't so complacent!
I don't think I'm complacent, but I do think that to compare Brown with Hitler and what is undoubtedly the final year of the Labour government to the Götterdämmerung of the Third Reich is childish hysteria. It's really no wonder that many people believe that these blogs are the target of Tory stooges, whether they are or not.
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I am very tired of hearing this argument over inheritance tax, to me it is a very unpopular tax on the dead. Labour use it as a continual tool against the Conservatives and try to say it only benefits millionaires when in fact the Conservatives only want to lift the theshold to one million making sure all ordinary people are caught in this net (because of the cost of a family home these days), and pay no inheritance tax on death.
With the present threshold being £325,000 it means many heirs of an estate must sell the family home to pay inheritance tax. If the Conservatives want to get themselves out of this position I would suggest that they make the family home one item that is exempt from inheritance tax thus insuring everyone is happy. It also helps to prevent old people who live in high value homes feeling the pressure, to sell their home they have lived in for many years, to avoid this tax for their heirs.
It would encourage people to save and move up in the property market allowing more homes to be freed up both for first time buyers and Council property.
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161. Its_an_Outrage wrote:
I don't think I'm complacent, but I do think that to compare Brown with Hitler and what is undoubtedly the final year of the Labour government to the Gtterdmmerung of the Third Reich is childish hysteria. It's really no wonder that many people believe that these blogs are the target of Tory stooges, whether they are or not.
=
Absolutely agree with you Outrage. By the same token I think some of the remarks about Thatcher and Etonians on these blogs are equally childish.
You'll always get that on anonymous forums, goes with the territory. Probably been guilty myself.
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I and my contemporaries born after the war into what would now, these days, be called "poverty", with outside toilets in schools, poor heating and basic diets (eat it or go without), are far far better educated and more articulate than today's children.
The government thinks to thrown money at the buildings etc will fix the problem.
The children where I grew up became doctors, solicitors etc. I cannot think of one of them who were inarticulate or could not spell or do basic maths properly.
We did not need to go to gyms. We walked to school, rain or shine, we did English country dancing, PE, and ate a balanced simple diet. We had no TV, precious few cars, hardly any foreign holidays (if at all) and we did not have members of the opposite sex sleeping in our bedrooms. We got engaged, marrried and had children - in that order.
This government actually devalues marriage and is so stupid it cannot see that the generations of the past were BETTER educated (just compare exam papers) and will live LONGER than the children of the present.
Cheers, Labour. You have never had a clue.
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So the country's finances are going down the pan fast according to every external body to the government, but the spending review doesn't need to take place despite the fact that it is due.
Is this now an excuse for the businesses under govt banks control not to do business plans - yeah right, those businesses will be planning and reforcasting continually to try and maintain their banking facilities.
This lightweight charlatan going by the name of the "Prime Minister" is crucifying this country. Does he think he'll be able to continue borrowing money to fund the UK's liabilities when he doesn't have a financial plan ?
How can the rest of his ministers allow this to continue ? Come on, Alastair Darling, show us you've got the "balls" to take him on. You're the chief financial man, for the sake of the nation, act like one.
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63. JohnMallerstang wrote:
It's hardly worth bothering to read - or post - comments here; it seems to be monopolised by some sort of permanent far-right Tory commentariat. They all sound the same - mostly insults and hatred. Do they pay them to lurk in various comment spaces to keep up a constant attack on "nulabour" (as they often seem to call it) as liars (or worse). They usually also claim that the BBC is a Labour outpost - although it certainly doesn't feel like that to anyone who is even slightly to the left of Ghengis Khan. This isn't political comment, it's mostly just bile.
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This is still a democracy JohnM and these posts are probably a fair reflection of the polls and what the majority feel about the government.
Like it or not all governments have a shelf life and this one has reached its sell by date. Insults and hatred aren't the preserve of the anti-Labour lobby, they come from all sides.
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Sorry folks, joining this blog a bit later than normal so if I go over ground already covered then appologies.
This is not a policy programme but a wishlist hoping that people will be duped into thinking this is best for me personally. There are no new commitments here that stand up to scrutiny, they sound good but have been promised before and not been delivered on so why believe they will be now or will affect such a small amount of people that it won't benefit sufficient numbers.
As for costing these schemes, how can anyone trust New Labours figures when one of their projects (2 new aircraft carriers) has risen in cost by 25% or £1 Billion.
Maybe this is what Gordon means by no cuts in spending?
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I've not read this mini manifesto but is there actually anything in there? I mean the housing policy doesn't apply as on Newsnight a councillor said of the 1629 houses that were available 1628 went to local people.
The other policies are just flannel to be fair. Who is going to police the benefits and work thing? Are they really going to be able to manage that? Or are they going to employ another 10,000 to manage that?
What really needs to happen is that we have an honest clear analysis of the situation and be able to know we are in trouble proper financially in the country and that we are all in this together so we need to tighten the belts individually and collectively. Labour needs to stop treating us as children but most of all Brown needs to call an election.
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'A manifesto by any other name....should smell so sweet!'
So there we are, the run up to the general election has begun already.
This manifesto (sorry....document) sounds almost like a begging letter from the Labour Government. They could have been a little bit more honest with the British electorate. They could have entitled it:
'Please.....please....elect us again. We're really sorry!'
Once again we are treated to the same old promises, the same old retoric, the same old cliches.
Perhaps this time the politicians (those who are not standing down; been de-selected; need to spend more time with their families; or are taking up lucrative directorships etc.) could at least try and treat the British public as though they are intelligent adults. We would, perhaps, be more sympathetic if they did not trawl the archives of past manifestos and try to present them as new ideas.
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Those New Labour kids have trashed the house while mum and dad were away. The tricky task of tidying up and hiding broken stuff begins. Will they notice? Unfortunately the neighbours noticed and mum and dad always find out. I forsee a lengthy grounding period.
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# 161. At 10:41am on 30 Jun 2009, Its_an_Outrage wrote:
"I don't think I'm complacent, but I do think that to compare Brown with Hitler and what is undoubtedly the final year of the Labour government to the Gotterdammerung of the Third Reich is childish hysteria. "
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It is not "childish hysteria" at all - it is clear that current levels of Government borrowing are devastating for the country in the longer term. The cost of simply servicing the debt interest will be vast, thus reducing the amount of public money available for spending on public services - future taxpayers will be paying tax to pay the interest on the public debt being created by Brown.
It is a scorched earth policy - Brown calculates that by borrowing madly now, either he can purchase a Labour fourth term in office (when Labour would have to break all their manifesto promises to sort out the mess) or he will leave such a mess for a new Conservative Government to sort out, that they will quickly become unpopular as they try to deal with it.
Either way, Brown is not merely mortgaging our futures, he is destroying them, for us, our children and our children's children!
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re: 154 Susan-Croft
re: 155 Johnharris66
These posts are intelligent, well thought-out and written, and should be compulsory reading for all voters.
Thank you, if only the Labour party would think about our children.
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Some vision eh? Was I inspired - not hardly ! Name me one thing in this document that has not been trailed before, one as far back as 1998 ..
And he ducks , again, the real burning platform - the need to reduce spending and raise taxes. Everything points to not if but rather when taxes will rise and cuts will implemented - so in reality its not a thread of dishonesty but a thumping big lie
..and as you havce no laid out your vision Mr Brown , why not let us vote on it ?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Young people given jobs?
Ah, the descent into the neo-liberal abyss.... they'll be given apprenticeships in flipping burgers and deep frying chicken (have you seen the ad).
How wonderful that these are now our 'industries'. I won't say anymore - people who do get taken to court!
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#154 #155 #172
Totally agree.
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Local homes for local people?
So, does this mean that all the rich people who bought properties that stand empty for long periods in Devon, Dorset and Cornwall (thus driving up property prices) are going to be forced to sell by the government?
I'd like to see it happen.
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175. extremesense
Too true... a nation of burger flippers run by property flippers.
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Sorry to interject some calm rationality into the usual outpourings of misery and hatred. Some of you should really get out more - your aggressive view of the world can't all be Labour's fault.
Flame Pat - whilst there was much to recommend the poor but simple life you describe in 164, let's not forget people were dying of TB, scarlet fever and polio which the Health Service has done much to resolve. Let's not forget that many in the North (you must have come across it) were hungry and in poor housing (maybe the South too). And let's not forget that many, like my mother in law, weren't allowed to pursue the careers they wanted not because they weren't able, but because they were women and also because they had to take a job to support the family.
And even if I accept that things were in some respects better then than now - why blame Labour? The Tories have been in power many more years than Labour since the war as such an educated person is no doubt aware. So should your final line be 'Thanks Tories.' ?
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175
I'm also puzzled by the measures to supposedly force young people to take a job or otherwise lose benefits. A lot of the uneducated and unskilled people - the majority though their own actions - in that group would be unemployable. What jobs could they actualy do ? And what employer would take on someone with the attitude the attitude of "I'm only here as I'll lose my benefits otherwise" ? Hardly likely to be a motivated employee.
A lot of this is a new labour created problem in the first place, and the proposed measures seem to be un-implementable. The problem has been allowed to grow so big that it's difficult to see what can be done about it.
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WOW Mortgage plan helps six families.
Gordans and Darlings much refered to Mortgage Plan launched last year has now helped 6 yes just 6 families!
So thats two failures for Gordan's plans today (the other lwas last weeks launched MPs' code of conduct plan dropped)!
And Like his British Jobs for British workers it looks like his Local Homes for Local people will be unlawful... watch this space....
The banished spin doctors must be spinning in their graves because goverment anouncments are being back tracked so fast that they hardly make it to the papers.
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The news stories headlined on the BBC website include
- the ecomony contracting by 2.4 % in the first quarter of this year.
- problems envisaged by introduction of e-borders
- "Local homes for local people" - seems to be a no starter
- the £200 million plan to help families with mortgage problems has helped only 6 families, and does not seem to be working very well.
This is Brown's Britain.
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Personally I am sick and tired of the pathetic name calling between died in the wool blues & reds both on this board and in the juvenile play ground that is the House of Commons. The facts are that the country has an enormous debt and I would like to know when anybody is going to start to tell us how it is going to be tackled and paid back.
All politicians are not telling the truth because the truth does not win votes, grand promises and "it will all be ok" platitudes do.
I have given up any thoughts of a decent retirement for myself but I do not want my children and (god forbid their children if they choose to have any) to have to be paying for this ever inflating mess. So instead of blaming Thatcher, Major, Blair or Brown come up with some proposals that can be debated and discussed. Who knows the half wits in the HofC may just read something on here that they can claim as their own and start to address the situation.
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179 laughatthetories
"Sorry to interject some calm rationality...."
I suspect the irony of you comment is lost on you !
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171. At 11:38am on 30 Jun 2009, crowdedisland wrote:
# 161. At 10:41am on 30 Jun 2009, Its_an_Outrage wrote:
...I do think that to compare Brown with Hitler and what is undoubtedly the final year of the Labour government to the Gotterdammerung of the Third Reich is childish hysteria. "
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It is not "childish hysteria" at all
Well, I'm not a Labour supporter but I do think you might take a step back and see reality. To compare Brown to Hitler and Labour to the Third Reich displays either to a blind and irrational hatred of Brown or ignorance about Nazism. Margaret Thatcher was accused of Nazism even, in satire, by the BBC and, although I couldn't and still can't stand her, it just made source of such drivel (usually the SWP), look like idiots.
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179
I'm glad you think of yourself as the sole voice of reason in an otherwise ignorant tide of hatred for the nulab experiment, the continued cheeleading for the abject failure is a constant source of amusement.
Also nice to see there are still people singing from the Brown hymn sheet:
1. Blame the Tories;
2. Blame the yanks;
3. Don't blame the Tories, but hypothesise it would not have been any better if they had been in power
Keep it up old son, every party needs grunt frontline to hide behind.
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183
Well Wavy, on the whole I would tend to agree with you about the commons, but an observor would note recently that whenever Cameron, Osbourne or others offer suggestions for how to solve the mess, they are shouted down and scoffed at with mindless rhetoric of "investment vs debts".
As for the back and forth on this forum, can I humbly suggest that if you do not like it, you do not read it.
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comparing brown to hitler is definitely a hyperbole too far, comapring brown to chamberlain though....
All those years turning a blind eye to what was happening in the city? shades of chamberlain watching germanies military capacity dramatically increase all the while conviced it wasn't going to be a problem...
Both of them will be remembered as head in the sand politicians, though both,it can be argued had admirable but ultimately flawed reasons for their actions.
Both had Canute (darn spell hys spell checker) syndrome - Chamberlain thought he could hold back another world war, Brown thought he'd ended boom boom & bust..
On the other hand Chamberlains inaction and blindness in the build up the crisis came within a whisker of physically destroying self rule for Britain, so Gordon still has someway to go....
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"182. At 12:46pm on 30 Jun 2009, StrictlyPickled wrote:
The news stories headlined on the BBC website include
- the ecomony contracting by 2.4 % in the first quarter of this year.
- problems envisaged by introduction of e-borders
- "Local homes for local people" - seems to be a no starter
- the 200 million plan to help families with mortgage problems has helped only 6 families, and does not seem to be working very well.
This is Brown's Britain"
Just a thought I wonder if the £200 million mortgage plan was actually spin for MP's ACA expenses, in which case its helped 640MP's as well as 6 families.
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# 185. At 12:52pm on 30 Jun 2009, Its_an_Outrage wrote:
171. At 11:38am on 30 Jun 2009, crowdedisland wrote:
# 161. At 10:41am on 30 Jun 2009, Its_an_Outrage wrote:
...I do think that to compare Brown with Hitler and what is undoubtedly the final year of the Labour government to the Gotterdammerung of the Third Reich is childish hysteria. "
----------------------------------------------
It is not "childish hysteria" at all
Well, I'm not a Labour supporter but I do think you might take a step back and see reality. To compare Brown to Hitler and Labour to the Third Reich displays either to a blind and irrational hatred of Brown or ignorance about Nazism. Margaret Thatcher was accused of Nazism even, in satire, by the BBC and, although I couldn't and still can't stand her, it just made source of such drivel (usually the SWP), look like idiots.
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I am not comparing Labour with the Third Reich, but I am comparing Brown with Hitler in one sense only - that he displays the same Bunker mentality, that is all. You are evidently educated and well informed, so I can only surmise that you are deliberately misinterpreting my comment. During his final days, Hitler refused to face reality, identified himself entirely with the German state and would rather the whole edifice crashed down in flames with him, than admit he had been wrong. I really do believe that Brown exhibits some of the same characteristics and that his scorched earth policy of extremely excessive Government borrowing will do for this country (in a metaphorical sense) what Hitler did for his.
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*investment vs cuts
Could the beeb please introduce an edit comment option, so I can go back and correct my typos.
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191. At 1:19pm on 30 Jun 2009, greatHayemaker wrote:
*investment vs cuts
Could the beeb please introduce an edit comment option, so I can go back and correct my typos.
---------------
the typos remind us we're not as clever or as perfect as we sometimes think we are...
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I think Gordon Brown is doing a great job.
I would love to tell you why he is a brilliant PM, but my medication is taking effect and it is very difficult to type in a strait jacket.
The doctor says that when I accept that Brown is a self-serving shyster and charlatan with zippo morals who doesn't give two hoots for anyone but himself, then I will be allowed out to join the rest of you
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Some of the folks on this blog are being a bit melodramatic about Brown and a 'bunker syndrome', taking us all down in flames with him, etc.
Ever so slightly over the top.
Nevertheless, if you are seriously worried about this, then watch Alex Salmond (an ex-economist) very carefully, because there is no way that he and the SNP Government in Scotland would let Brown drag Scotland into any sort of economic abyss.
England might sink under Brown's direction but there is no way that the Scots are going under too because they have just about managed to detach themselves from the 'Brits' at Westminster.
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192. At 1:26pm on 30 Jun 2009, U14049534 wrote:
191. At 1:19pm on 30 Jun 2009, greatHayemaker wrote:
*investment vs cuts
Could the beeb please introduce an edit comment option, so I can go back and correct my typos.
---------------
the typos remind us we're not as clever or as perfect as we sometimes think we are...
-----------------
Either that or that we have jobs and frequently post in a hurry whilst thinking about other things.
Definately my conclusion more accurate in my case ;-)
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What future is there to rebuild????
Labour knows it's doomed right now so they're trying everything they can to try and get on the good side of people. Like that'll work. Every time I listen to a cabinet minister it reminds me of the loathing I have developed for our government.
Too much lying, they claim that they're the party of investment; I see nothing wrong with it if the country has money but we don't. They constantly make the same claims even though for the last 12 years in power they have demonstrated their complete incompetence with everything they claim to be good at.
I think it's a good idea to remove benefits for wasters but will this cause extra suffering for those that are trying to get jobs but failing due to the state of this country, which the government kindly created under the wonderful economic policies of Gordon Brown.
Local homes for Local people is a nice philosophy, there are those that would like to stay in the same areas as their families but due to national and global markets it's not always easy to get a local job, especially when most companies centralise in major city areas. It also doesn't help when the government allowed homes to be bought up by people who weren't local de to the policies and legislation they put in place so it's a little late to act like our government cares about the people when they've done the greatest job at destroying them.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, what could our future have been like without New Labour. The policy of SPEND, SPEND, SPEND is only useful when you're spending on the right things. From my perspective this country has either remained where it is or gone downhill in most cases so when I hear of how effective this government is with spending our money wisely and for the benefit of the people I see no reason to trust the same old lies.
I work in the public sector and I see a lot of waste produced under New Labour. A lot of money could be cut from budgets due to waste brought in by New Labour. That's all I will say on that. It just allows me to follow on with the argument of Labour investment (waste that achieves very little) against Conservative cuts (can't really comment on that one as I don't know their exact plans). But given the choice between spiralling debt and wasted investment by New Labour compared with cuts, I will choose cuts because I believe (unfortunately) that right now it's our best option at getting out of this mess because there's so much waste that can be dealt with. I'm currently in the process of having to deal with an expensive IT system overhaul that isn't actually needed. The changes will not improve the system in any way so why are we spending money on it?????
Anyway, the only step I can see in rebuilding Labour's future is to get rid of most of their party and rebuild the party. The way I see it, when Gordon is gone, the candidates most likely to replace him I wouldn't ever vote for. Considering the values Labour, as a party, are supposed to represent, you've got to admire the job Gordon has done of alienating the vast majority of core Labour supporters in the country.
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I have just watched the BBC lunchtime news and the information peddled thereon.
According to the BBC Scots are reluctant to vote for independence , it says so in their poll,
B: The poll was conducted for BBC Scotland by ICM. They interviewed 1010 people between 22 and 24 June.
Does'nt tell you from whence they dug up the measly one thousand and ten folk, I could dig up , with NO effort at all 1010 folk to slant the pollin a different direction.
I am no great believer in polls , but when BBC news presents feeble results as fact then I object most strongly.
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The supreme irony of the woes of Gordon Brown and newlabour and its apologists is that the dear leader bears more resmblance to the dissolute offspring of a noble family, spending his way through a life of profligacy and excess, desperate for adulation and attention and above all, his own legacy.
It would be funnier if the parallel weren't so true, but think of the histories of some of our most famous families who tended their offsprin and wealth for generations, only to have one bad apple ruin the whole bunch.
This is the legacy that is Gordon Brown's newlabour; they took a country with its place restored in the world with a world class financial system, a gold plated private pensions industry, a healthy balance sheet, a private and public education system that was copied the world over, the largest manufacturer of cars in Europe, the most efficient steel mills in Europe a world class pharmaceuticals industry, world class armed forces, a civil service and police which were both respected and politically independent and what did they do?
They drove the whole lot off the cliff, politicised every issue, left us with a bunch of catch phrases for a country (Brittish jobs for British workers, education, education, education, 24 hours to save the NHS, Building BRitain's future, local homes for local people...endless tag lines instead of action) and ruined the national finances.
Now we must do what all noble families do to all errant sons who endanger the family name and wealth - cut the umbilical cord.
Goodbye Gordn and goodbye newlabour; this once proud country wil be so once again but only without you.
Call an election
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#171
Your piece rather reminded me of the Republican v Democrat battle that took place in 2008. The Republicans, perhaps sensing the impending doom predicted for the US economy and Bush's unsteady hand on matters Middle East, appeared to "blow" the election rather than risk their reputations for another four years.
Of course the UK no longer has a large and significant influence in the kinds of economic sectors that are largely bullet proof in a recession (arms, defence, etc) and also has to contend with EU mandates that far from enhance our ability to govern ourselves. But, of course, none of these matters are exactly party political in the UK. Indeed not much that occurs in the UK is party political given that no one actually represents the "cannon fodder" that is the huge number of people disenfranchised by politics over the past thirty years. They are the ones whose absence has resulted in general election results that have given us the best of a pretty dire bunch.
So now we are asked to vote for an alternative in that same dire bunch. Enter Cameron, straight from the Blair Charm School, the buttercup reflecting yellow under his chin but he swears he doesn't like butter! He swears he doesn't like a lot of things and, of course, he has no memory of those dark days of Tory sleaze. He is an Etonian after all and where would we be without a tiny little bit of sleaze? Of course we can turf out a bit of riff raff caught with hands deep in the till because it looks so good and the public are too darned desperate to see it as it is. And we can all moralise a bit; it's good for you.
So what about policy? On the economy? Well we will have to wait and see what the books say but there are going to have to be cuts - at least ten per cent. Even New Labour will have to do the same, Cameron continues.
So Cons and Labs will have to do the same. Some choice for the voter there then. So what about the Lib Dems? That Mr Cable is as bright as a button. Pity he is in the Yellow camp then; or perhaps it is just a pity he wasn't bright enough to stem the flow of a certain Clegg. What about their economic plans - same or different. Oh dear, much the same. Some choice this is becoming.
Whatever happened to polemic, the vision to see things clearly and come up with something completely new and relevant to the UK, not Europe or the USA. Something that recognises that we have an immigration problem that doesn't need repetition of "rivers of blood" but something a little more along the lines of honouring the honest to goodness British person who has been ignored for far too long. The guy that has had a trade and career for decades but now finds that they are going nowhere fast no matter what they try to do.
Who is going to suggest we need 90% employment not 65-70% if we are lucky? And if we do not have the capacity to produce that many jobs how are we going to downsize the population to prevent it being an issue?
The public debt is the least of our problems if what we have spent in the last year or so isn't going to deal with the problems we have got. And neither is a cut in employment in the public sector without a commensurate rise in equivalent jobs in the private sector. That is not going to happen without us having a far sighted, dependable and consummate leader. Where are they?
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"British jobs for British workers"
"Local homes for local people"
Next up?
"Bringing you the solution to the immigrant problem"
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Laughatthetories 179
No one disputes that all Governments have made mistakes in the past, I certainly do not. However we are in the here and now and there is no doubt that the Labour Government are the ones who have been in power for 12 years and as such must take the responsibility for the mess we are in. You cannot with the best will in the world, of whatever political persuasion you are, blame the Conservatives who have not been in power.
I know it is frustrating when the Party you care about is being attacked, but at the end of the day Labour only have themselves to blame. They should have cared more about the Country and less about the Labour Party and staying in power. In general they should have picked more people of honour instead of unprincipled people such as Brown, Blair, Mandelson etc.
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Diabloandco @ 197
The poll shows that the SNP are heading in the right direction, which is effectively full independence by increments, hence their careful wording of the referendum question(s).
Their only significant political opponent in Scotland, Labour, might gnash their teeth in frustration at not getting a simple yes/no type question but why should the governing SNP play into their hands?
I am confidence that the SNP will get there in the end, which has the by-product of freeing us English too from the yoke of the 'Brits' at Westminster.
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Well, I said it yesterday and today it has been confirmed, local homes for local people is unlawful under the equality bill.
I think Brown and the cabinet must have a tombola box in the cabinet room which Mandelson turns with the handle once a week and Brown sticks his hand in and pulls out the weeks new idea that they can release to the now exhausted and dejected electorate.
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#200
Actually, I think you'll find the next slogan will be:
"Our debt, your problem"
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Come on Nick it looks like you have been in the Westmidden Bubble that long you have started to believe the spin and drivel that NuLabour dish out on a daily basis. Fortunately an ever increasing number of the electorate don't.
Nick do you remember at the last NuNumpty conference Duff made the following promise:
Brown reveals free childcare plan.
My first thought, then, was were are they going to get the money, GB PLC is brassic. Then I read further
Ha
Aides were stressing that the extra childcare places were an aspiration rather than a firm policy commitment.
Nick you should take NuLabours promises of rebuilding Britain with a pinch of salt.
Roll On 2010 - NuLabour all mouth and no trousers.
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I wish I had such confidence Mr Constabel!
With the BBC and BBC Scotland working so hard for the establishment I despair of ever seeing my country standing on its own two feet and making its own decisions for better or worse.
How I envy Switzerland , Luxembourg and even the Isle of Man!
I hope the English folk get a little more uppity and demand an English parliament.That would help all of us considerably.
I cannot get over the fact that lunchtime news reported a poll of this flimsy stature as somehow indicative of the mindset of a few million people.
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186. At 12:54pm on 30 Jun 2009, greatHayemaker wrote:
179
I'm glad you think of yourself as the sole voice of reason in an otherwise ignorant tide of hatred for the nulab experiment, the continued cheeleading for the abject failure is a constant source of amusement.
Also nice to see there are still people singing from the Brown hymn sheet:
1. Blame the Tories;
2. Blame the yanks;
3. Don't blame the Tories, but hypothesise it would not have been any better if they had been in power
Keep it up old son, every party needs grunt frontline to hide behind.
---------------------------
I think its less a defense of the current Labour government (pretty much a lost cause), and more an attack on the atmosphere of bile and infantile humour of the comments here. Its that same mixture of hysteria and ignorant 'Zanulabour, Gordybroon etc' rhymes and slogans that led to the rise of the BNP vote (Which, by the by, seems to be exactly what 'PurpledogZZZ' is gunning for).
I don't like Labour or the Tories, but the rise of the far-right as a protest vote is something that scares me far more than any of the mainstream parties. I'm not saying every comment is like that - but a good 70% of them are. Not everyone who appeals for calm is a Labour supporter in disguise - just worried by those who off-handedly remark that a 'Ukip-BNP collaboration would run the country better than this lot' - well, they need their head examined. Read it from the Telegraph if you wont hear it from anyone else: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/5325723/Voters-must-hear-the-truth-about-the-BNP-before-its-too-late.html
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I would like to suggest a way that future Governments may like to go.
It is apparent from all the blogs that nobody really trusts Governments anymore, whatever their colour. Big talk and rhetoric by MPs e.g. "...blah, blah, we must reconnect with the electorate etc., etc" does little to help. They cannot reconnect after all they have been exposed to be.
I would contend that we have actually been too connected with Governments for too long. Unfortunately, alot of this is due to one man, as Vince Cable once humourously intimated, our Dear Leader really is Stalinist in his ideas. He needs and craves total central control. The examples are everywhere. We would be subject to 5 year plans if he thought he could use the language.
Redistribution of wealth via central Government
ID cards
Multiple databases
Reading e-mails
Phone interception
A massive public services sector
Massive central taxation
Targets galore (Is there a target for target numbers?)
These are but a few examples.
What the electorate would be better with is much more decision making and revenue collection controlled by local Government.
Redistributing wealth costs money, (therefore wastes money). If the Government were a charity they would have to wear a badge explaining how much of each pound donated actually goes to the place it's meant to. I believe that at present it costs the Government around 37 pence to spend a pound. Why then bother taking any money off the bottom 1/3rd of the less well off at all?
I hope the people on this blog understand where I am coming from.
I know I've written a long entry and didn't want to be long winded but at least I think I've managed to write without the usual bile and yah-boo found here.
Feedback appreciated.
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186 Hay, 201 Susan
You could have at least read the post before pressing the standard hate response button. I'm not blaming the Tories, yanks or anyone else - that's the point. I was rebutting Pat's rather lame attempt at blame.
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My concern is that the electorate that voted New Labour in for 10 years is so brainwashed and supported by Labour through its commitment to support the workshy and publicly funded benefits that it will yet again fail to grasp that it is being conned yet again to accept New(Old) labour as the only Party which will allow them to sit at home at our expense. This bunch of charlatans that call themselves a Government have brought our Country to its knees with the result that we are treated with contempt throughout the world. Look at Iran, Iraq and Europe. We are considered as a 3rd world country with no future. Please get out and do something to save our country !
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207 Raz
Good try but you might as well talk to a wooden spoon (just happened to see one) as some of this lot. They make Basil Fawlty seem calm and rational.
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208 saint mm
I agree with you completely..why does the BBC and the rest of the media not challenge the guff that brown spouts....what the country wants me to do....no they dont they want you to go so please GO
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194. At 1:35pm on 30 Jun 2009, JohnConstable wrote:
... watch Alex Salmond (an ex-economist) very carefully, because there is no way that watch Alex Salmond (an ex-economist) very carefully, because there is no way that he and the SNP Government in Scotland would let Brown drag Scotland into any sort of economic abyss...
Whenever I listen to Alex Salmond I can't help thinking that I'm listening to a man who desperately wants to be a bigger frog, even if it means a smaller pond. Independence when it comes, as is now inevitable, will be a disaster for both countries. Mostly, I think for Scotland. It seems so obvious to me that we could be much stronger together, which is why I am deeply suspicious of Salmond and most of the SNP. Still, so be it - for heaven's sake, cut the rope and then we can each tackle our own economic future.
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Re 197, Diabloandco wrote:
"The poll was conducted for BBC Scotland by ICM. They interviewed 1010 people between 22 and 24 June.
Does'nt tell you from whence they dug up the measly one thousand and ten folk, I could dig up , with NO effort at all 1010 folk to slant the pollin a different direction.
I am no great believer in polls , but when BBC news presents feeble results as fact then I object most strongly"
I have no connection to the BBC but I think you'll find a carefully selected random poll of 1000 people or more is a standard sample size for any poll of this type as it has been repeatedly demonstrated over many decades to be sufficiently large (as long as selected randomly) to give a pretty good indication as to the opinions of the people polled as a whole. Sometimes polls get it wrong but rarely too far wrong.
What's obvious is how the information overload available on the internet seems to have encouraged a new depth of scepticism among the public to just about anything. Which is rather unfortunate and worrying. Not to mention an almost total loss of perspective.
Correct me if I'm wrong but most people, despite the current economic situation, are actually far better off in material terms than ever before by almost any reasonable measure? Anyone who has used or even just visited a state funded school or hospital will know that they are vastly improved on 10 years ago. The current economic woes would have been there whichever party had been in power since no Government could have turned down the funds coming in from finance when the times were good without the benefit of hindsight. There are of course real arguments to be had but they don't seem to take place on these BBC blogs. Prospect magazine is a good start for those in search of something a bit more intelligent and reasoned, often written by experts in the field also rather than hacks needing the next big headline.
Finally - very disappointing piece by NR on News last night. Fair enough to talk about an alternative name re saving Labour being joked about during the piece but there was some serious content to be described and discussed. OTT cynicism just multiplies and doesnt serve anyone at the end of the day, as we have all seen.
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207. At 2:22pm on 30 Jun 2009, Raz_the_Destroyer wrote:
186. At 12:54pm on 30 Jun 2009, greatHayemaker wrote:
179
I'm glad you think of yourself as the sole voice of reason in an otherwise ignorant tide of hatred for the nulab experiment, the continued cheeleading for the abject failure is a constant source of amusement.
Also nice to see there are still people singing from the Brown hymn sheet:
1. Blame the Tories;
2. Blame the yanks;
3. Don't blame the Tories, but hypothesise it would not have been any better if they had been in power
Keep it up old son, every party needs grunt frontline to hide behind.
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I think its less a defense of the current Labour government (pretty much a lost cause), and more an attack on the atmosphere of bile and infantile humour of the comments here. Its that same mixture of hysteria and ignorant 'Zanulabour, Gordybroon etc' rhymes and slogans that led to the rise of the BNP vote (Which, by the by, seems to be exactly what 'PurpledogZZZ' is gunning for).
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You need to know your audience before making commentls like this, LAT is always the staunchest of newlab apologists.
And it is not the comments on this forum that led to the rise of the BNP vote, you will find, if you bother to check, that most of the posters here condemn the BNP. You will also find, however, a much better understanding of why that vote arose than you profess to have. The one thing the BNP have in abundance is a sense of integrity. They are unpleasant, thuggish and objectionable, but they say what they think and mean what they say, a commodity desperately lacking in the mainstream parties.
You can label the posters on this forum ignorant if you like, I am sure you will face up to the same accusation regularly. For myself I prefer to understand the reasons behind circumstances than just lable anyone who disagrees with me as somehow inferior. I would find such an approach to be unpardonably arrogant, but thats just me.
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It really beggars belief Duff Gordon cranking on about Tory cuts and how NuLabour will avoid cuts by prioritising spending. When in fact NuLabour started their spending cuts last year in their Pre-budget Report (PBR).
The small print of the Pre-Budget Report document reveals the start of substantial public sector cutbacks over the next five years.
Oddly enough this puts my previous comment at #205 into context.
Gordon Browns GBP5bn saving spree: drive on the hard shoulder and delay free childcare.
Hospitals, police officers, nurseries and motorways are set to bear the brunt of GBP5 billion of spending cuts within two years.
Roll On 2010 - Less than 12 months to go.
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209. At 2:32pm on 30 Jun 2009, Laughatthetories wrote:
186 Hay, 201 Susan
You could have at least read the post before pressing the standard hate response button. I'm not blaming the Tories, yanks or anyone else - that's the point. I was rebutting Pat's rather lame attempt at blame.
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"Hate response button" ?
Perhaps also read Susan's post to you more carefully, i couldn't detect any " Hate " at all.
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211. At 2:38pm on 30 Jun 2009, Laughatthetories wrote:
207 Raz
Good try but you might as well talk to a wooden spoon (just happened to see one) as some of this lot. They make Basil Fawlty seem calm and rational.
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Come on matey there is more than enough pot kettle black in your above post
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#213 Its_an_Outrage
"Independence when it comes, as is now inevitable, will be a disaster for both countries."
Some supporting evidence for your assertion of "disaster" would be interesting. Also an explanation of why the same disaster didn't happen to the Czechs and Slovaks would be illuminating.
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214. At 2:48pm on 30 Jun 2009, intemple wrote:
Re 197, Diabloandco wrote:
I have no connection to the BBC but I think you'll find a carefully selected random poll of 1000 people or more is a standard sample size for any poll of this type as it has been repeatedly demonstrated over many decades to be sufficiently large (as long as selected randomly) to give a pretty good indication as to the opinions of the people polled as a whole. Sometimes polls get it wrong but rarely too far wrong.
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Just my humble opinion of course, but there is no way a random poll of 1000 odd people out of lets say around 20 odd million people is indicative of an overall opinion.
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214. At 2:48pm on 30 Jun 2009, intemple wrote:
Re 197, Diabloandco wrote:
"The poll was conducted for BBC Scotland by ICM. They interviewed 1010 people between 22 and 24 June.
Does'nt tell you from whence they dug up the measly one thousand and ten folk, I could dig up , with NO effort at all 1010 folk to slant the pollin a different direction.
I am no great believer in polls , but when BBC news presents feeble results as fact then I object most strongly"
I have no connection to the BBC but I think you'll find a carefully selected random poll of 1000 people or more is a standard sample size for any poll of this type as it has been repeatedly demonstrated over many decades to be sufficiently large (as long as selected randomly) to give a pretty good indication as to the opinions of the people polled as a whole. Sometimes polls get it wrong but rarely too far wrong.
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Thats interesting, because when I studied the surveys back in my youth, I found that you could get any result you wanted based on the phrasing of the question and the "slice" of the population taken.
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# 208. At 2:22pm on 30 Jun 2009, Saintmm wrote:
"What the electorate would be better with is much more decision making and revenue collection controlled by local Government."
Exactly right! There is a political polemic on this very issue written by Daniel Hannan and Douglas Carswell - it is called "The Plan" - I suggest you order a copy, since it provides a clear analysis of why we are where we are and how to get to where we should be. Localism is a key part.
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Building what?
Clearly, the entire group of parliamentarians, in both Houses, from all parties, could not BUILD their way out of a brown paper bag.
The scandal that MPs don't consider that they should be bound by a legally enforceable 'code of conduct' is particularly ironic as the MPs themselves have forced many others, e.g. local councillors, local government officers, civil servants, etc., etc, to be bound by such codes.
They did that whilst muttering such high and worthy terms as 'accountability', 'open-government', 'independent scrutiny', 'audit trails', 'transparency', blah, blah, blah.....
But, of course, such ideas wouldn't apply to them because they're all 'honourable', if not 'right honourable', aren't they?
As a Master Class in how NOT to rebuild public trust in UK government and parliament, this latest example of MPs complete lack of vision and total inability to manage reputational risk, really is an out-and-out blinder!
Best answer would be to do away with the Westminster Paliament, have an English Paliament, some sort of very trim and slim Union governance mechanism, and then the European Parliament. I mean really, in this day and age, just how necessary IS the Westminster Parliament? What does it actually do that is worth paying good money for?
Just as the UK can no longer afford the luxuries of increasingly expensive aircraft carriers, we also cannot not afford, financially or socially, for this farce of elected members and entourage, at vast public cost, to sit there not delivering outcomes.
Sadly the people of Britain have no mechanism to make such changes happen.
If no-one in Westminster can extricate their digit from whatever orifice in which it is currently entwined, then they risk that others will take things into their own hands.
The levels of public disbelief and distrust for the parliamentary systems and the parliamentarians are threatening in some places to reach those that you would expect before a revolution, or a military coup.
(Though, in the UK, you'll probably just get massive voter apathy at the next election!)
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I notice that there are a number of writers complaining about the takeover of this site by right wing "hysterical" bloggers etc representing extreme minority views. I should like to point out to these labour apologists, very calmly, the following:
1. Labour is itself a fringe party in England, gaining 15.6% of the recent local and Euro election votes cast;
2. The last Labour manifesto explicitly stated that there would be a vote on the new EU constitution;
3. Tony Blair explicitly said that he would serve a full term, if elected;
4. The refusal to publish the comprehensive spending figures, which spell out the current estimates of tax revenues and expenditure going forward, has been widely been seen as an extraordinary trick to avoid answering detailed questions about spending plans;
5. The sheer lameness of yesterday's new plan in the face of the recession is breathtaking, whatever you think are the causes of the recession;
6. There has been a long history of repeated announcements since 1997, dressed up as new initiatives and this has finally resulted in a large degree of cynicism when new initiatives are announced;
7. The great majority of independent observers, including the OECD and the IFS, believe that the UK has a major structural deficit,i.e. it is running a major deficit even if one takes out the effect of the recession. This will need to be addressed at some stage, as these structural deficits will not disappear over an economic cycle. There is no hint of how Labour will do this or even that it recognises the issue;
8. There are tremendous unfunded liabilities over and above these deficits in the form of public sector pensions, PFI contracts etc, which will automatically drive up deficits even more or taxes or both or require massive cuts elsewhere;
9. Gordon Brown deliberately mixes up annual deficits and accumulted deficits when describing the future. He has repeatedly spoken of halving the debt by 2013, when he is actually talking about that year's deficit being half this year's (i.e. total debt still rising).
It is for these reasons that many people are angry and will not accept a word Brown says, not because people are crazy right wing ideologues.
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209. At 2:32pm on 30 Jun 2009, Laughatthetories wrote:
186 Hay, 201 Susan
You could have at least read the post before pressing the standard hate response button. I'm not blaming the Tories, yanks or anyone else - that's the point. I was rebutting Pat's rather lame attempt at blame.
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Your 179:
"And even if I accept that things were in some respects better then than now - why blame Labour? The Tories have been in power many more years than Labour since the war as such an educated person is no doubt aware. So should your final line be 'Thanks Tories.' ?"
You'll forgive me if your "rebuttal" seems to me to indicate that you are attempting to lay the blame at the door of the Tories rather than NuLab. If I am mistaken, I do of course humbly withdraw my comment, but I will keep it saved for the next time it will prove to be appropriate.
I give it 45 minutes.
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129. At 00:00am on 30 Jun 2009, TheEnglishman wrote:
82. At 7:51pm on 29 Jun 2009, doctordisraeli wrote:
Yes, thank you, yellowbelly. Two more consignments to Germany today.
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I'm really curious, what are you selling/sending to Germany?
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He doesn't sell anything to Germany, because he is not a businessman, he is a Labout troll who appeared on here in January trying to convince us that the VAT cut had helped make his exports abroad cheaper, when any fool knows that exports are VAT free. So, you won't get an answer as to what he sells, because it doesn't exist!
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215 Hay
What! Staunchest of Labour what? If you knew your audience you would know that I am no fan of new Labour. I just can't stand the Tory mentality of self and blame which many on here so perfectly demonstrate. I support Tony Benn, Brian Clough (RIP) and Stuart Hall - in that order.
Ghost - yeah didn't mean Susan - notice you didn't rush to Greymaker's defence.
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Its_an_Outrage @ 213
You say that it seems so obvious that we could be much stronger together, referring to the respective countries, England and Scotland.
In fact, post-independence, we will still be very much together ... as members of the EU and the Commonwealth.
The economic future of both England and Scotland is heavily bound up with that of the EU particularly.
Once independence is upon Scotland, and by default, England, both countries will assume their 'natural' political positions i.e. England centre/right/'mildly capitalist' and Scotland centre/left/'mildly socialist'.
Those differing political orientations are, in my opinion, the gigantic fault line which runs through 'British' politics and largely answers the question of why this is the land 'where nothing works as it should'.
That is nothing will work very well when two of the players are pulling in essentially different directions.
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224
"1. Labour is itself a fringe party in England, gaining 15.6% of the recent local and Euro election votes cast"
===========================
New Labour have actually been the smallest political party in the country for the past 12 years. It just happens that all of it's MPs are in the cabinet.
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Seeing as all newlabour apoogists are convinced there is some mad conspiracy to unseat them at the next general election and the economy is going to be perfectly alright under Gordon....
How do you explain that benefit payments are now higher than income tax receipts for the first time ever....?
So 25m of us are working to pay for the workshy to hang around street corners?
This is a monstrous outrage and could only happen under a government as plofigate and insanely tin eared as newlabour.
The simple fact is whether they like it or not the next government will have to be an aggressively cost cutting one.
if Lord Mandy thinks he can get away with eleven months of never providing any data on the next three years newlabour spending plans he is having a laugh. he will be rucified by the currency markets.
Call an election.
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Since GDP actually fell by 2.4% in the first quarter, against a forecast by the Shadow Chancellor, Mr Darling, of 1.6% in his Budget speech in April, does this mean that we will see even more "reprioritising" of spending from the Prime Minister, Mr Mandelson, and his deputy, Mr Brown, than previously fudged?
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224. At 3:27pm on 30 Jun 2009, Financehero wrote: "It is for these reasons that many people are angry and will not accept a word Brown says, not because people are crazy right wing ideologues."
Your post is absolutely spot on and should be quoted verbatim in all news outlets.
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214
Very worrying post in more ways than one, I initially ignored the main content to respond to the first part, but have now read teh rest
" What's obvious is how the information overload available on the internet seems to have encouraged a new depth of scepticism among the public to just about anything. Which is rather unfortunate and worrying. Not to mention an almost total loss of perspective. "
- So it is your assertion that the public actually knowing what is going on, waking up and complaining about it, is a bad thing? Perhaps people should not have the right to chose how they want to be governed? We could always dispense with democracy altogether, instate Brown as dictator, and let the public live in ignorance as their country is flushed down the toilet. How dare the public comlain, how dare they!!!!!!!!!!
You return to that oh so familiar lefty line. "You don't agree with me, therefore you are ignorant/bigotted/selfish". Incredible, simply incredible.
"Correct me if I'm wrong but most people, despite the current economic situation, are actually far better off in material terms than ever before by almost any reasonable measure? Anyone who has used or even just visited a state funded school or hospital will know that they are vastly improved on 10 years ago. The current economic woes would have been there whichever party had been in power since no Government could have turned down the funds coming in from finance when the times were good without the benefit of hindsight. There are of course real arguments to be had but they don't seem to take place on these BBC blogs."
Corrected. I was at a state school under the Tories, until I studied hard enough to earn a scholarship to a private one. I would not dream of sending my children to a state school now.
The same applies to healthcare. One essential on my expenditure list is private healthcare for myself and my family because the NHS is in such an appalling state. Private health is fantastic, even the Labour Government is starting to admit that the NHS in its current set up is unsustainable.
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#228 JohnConstable
If you haven't seen it, Have a look at "Thatcher and the Scots" on the BBC Parliament site http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00g9qr8/Thatcher_and_the_Scots/. Non partisan, and an interesting analysis of how the institutions of "Britishness" were dismantled under that PM.
It suggests (and I think it's probably correct) that recent Scottish history has not been so much a rise in "Scottishness", but a collapse in "Britishness". In other words, for a while, there were reasons for a "British" consciousness to exist in Scotland, but the decline in that simply leaves Scotland (as it has always been) a nation with its own institutions.
England may have a more complex route to follow since the concepts of "English" and "British" seem to become interchangeable concepts instead of two identities sitting side by side, as in Scotland.
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227. At 3:33pm on 30 Jun 2009, Laughatthetories wrote:
215 Hay
What! Staunchest of Labour what? If you knew your audience you would know that I am no fan of new Labour. I just can't stand the Tory mentality of self and blame which many on here so perfectly demonstrate. I support Tony Benn, Brian Clough (RIP) and Stuart Hall - in that order.
Ghost - yeah didn't mean Susan - notice you didn't rush to Greymaker's defence.
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Sorry, must have missed Greymakers post
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Are we missing some bad news?
The Goverment must beleives its a bad news day, departments are falling over them selves to release bad news and Major policy clime downs today.
But other then the very sad news about a plane crash, and an exploding train I can find no really bad news non goverment news.
Come on BBC there must be something that the goverment beleives is soo important that we will miss the following:-
1) Climbdown over airport ID cards
2) Sharp contraction for UK economy
3) E-borders 'travel chaos' warning
4) UK 'must slash defence spending'
5) Local homes pledge 'is unlawful'
6) MPs' code of conduct plan dropped
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This is hysterical! Lifted from Coffee house website:
Daniel Finkelstein highlights this you couldn't make it up answer from Ian Austin to a question about the government's mortgage assistance scheme:
Ian Austin, the housing minister, promised MPs: "The impact of the scheme is accelerating." He said the number of families helped by the measure had risen from two to six during May.
This kind of answer does make you thing that Bagehot is right about government ministers now living in their own parallel universe and so unaccountable for the accuracy of their statements.
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227
Ok, I might have been a bit off the mark with the NuLab apologist remark.
Confirmed Laborite for life might have been nearer the mark.
I'm just curious, would there ever be anything that the Tory party could do to make you vote for them? If the answer to that question is no, I think you should really do some thinking about what that means. If I were to hazard a guess, I would say you are from a family that has always voted labour, and from a young age had that mentality that "Labour are kind, Tories are selfish" drummed into you so that it is now so firmly entrenched, you can not see past it to what either party is actually doing at the moment.
Anticipating a similar question back from you, yes I am from a Tory voting family (my dear old mum worked in the public sector for most of her life, the old man was in the RAF), but the last time I voted Tory was for Willy Hague.
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219. At 3:09pm on 30 Jun 2009, oldnat wrote:
#213 Its_an_Outrage
"Independence when it comes, as is now inevitable, will be a disaster for both countries."
Some supporting evidence for your assertion of "disaster" would be interesting.
You're right. I did state that as an assertion and I have to admit that
it's only my opinion. However, a couple of reasons are that I think that England has always been strengthened by its union with Scotland. For the same reasons that I think Northern England is stronger for it's national association with the South although I believe that we have very different cultures. Scotland would I think suffer economically in the long term, after a temporary hit on vast amounts of the EU funding that would arrive but not last forever. Of course, The Scotish government might handle everything perfectly. There will be no insidious dissent, nothing unexpected will damage the economy and Scotland will prosper. I hope so. It seems a big step to take unless the whole Nation is united in confidence of success.
Also an explanation of why the same disaster didn't happen to the Czechs and Slovaks would be illuminating.
It would indeed be most interesting and I look forward to you providing it. I know a song in Serbo-Croat, if that would help? It's about a girl who wants to buy a shop in Struga.
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I would not dream of sending my children to a state school now.
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I will qualify that comment, there are many state schools which are doing a great job.
Should read, I would not dream of sending my children to the State Schools near where I live.
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"219. At 3:09pm on 30 Jun 2009, oldnat wrote:
#213 Its_an_Outrage
"Independence when it comes, as is now inevitable, will be a disaster for both countries."
Some supporting evidence for your assertion of "disaster" would be interesting. Also an explanation of why the same disaster didn't happen to the Czechs and Slovaks would be illuminating."
Easy...the EU. Same plan as Salmond has. Independent in Europe. Contradiction there but Salmond would sell his granny for the chance to be the first President of Scotland.
Unless we are referring to a political disaster in which case it did happen to the Czechs/Slovaks.
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236. At 3:54pm on 30 Jun 2009, icewombat wrote:
Are we missing some bad news?
The Goverment must beleives its a bad news day, departments are falling over them selves to release bad news and Major policy clime downs today.
But other then the very sad news about a plane crash, and an exploding train I can find no really bad news non goverment news.
Come on BBC there must be something that the goverment beleives is soo important that we will miss the following:-
1) Climbdown over airport ID cards
2) Sharp contraction for UK economy
3) E-borders 'travel chaos' warning
4) UK 'must slash defence spending'
5) Local homes pledge 'is unlawful'
6) MPs' code of conduct plan dropped
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Has there been a climb down on Airport ID cards ?
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"BNP-UKIP coalition.."
UKIP would not touch the BNP with a barge pole.
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This is what The Guardian think of Labour's Building For The Future' document:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/30/building-britains-future-brown
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"excellentcatblogger wrote:
This is hysterical! Lifted from Coffee house website:
Daniel Finkelstein highlights this you couldn't make it up answer from Ian Austin to a question about the government's mortgage assistance scheme:
Ian Austin, the housing minister, promised MPs: "The impact of the scheme is accelerating." He said the number of families helped by the measure had risen from two to six during May."
While this is true I suspect the Housing Minister was referring to what is in the pipe-line rather then how many people have been helped to date.
From the BBC web site
"Facing criticism of the scheme's effectiveness, ministers have insisted it is gaining momentum.
As well as the six families for whom the threat of repossession has been completely lifted, they say a further 200 have received interim support while another 295 cases are currently being considered."
Even so the figures are certainly a lot lower then we were led to believe they would be, and there doesn't seem to be any indication of how many families were rejected and have lost their homes as a result (numbers I would be interested in)
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228. At 3:35pm on 30 Jun 2009, JohnConstable wrote:
Its_an_Outrage @ 213
...Those differing political orientations are, in my opinion, the gigantic fault line which runs through 'British' politics and largely answers the question of why this is the land 'where nothing works as it should'.
That is nothing will work very well when two of the players are pulling in essentially different directions...
I just don't see it as a 'gigantic fault line'. I believe that similar dynamic differences have existed for some time within England and yet the nation hasn't split. I have a very bad feeling about independence because I see it as tribal in this case and that the result will demonstrate all that's bad about tribalism. But I can certainly see no benefit in the state of being a bit independent, which is what this devolution is. Better to split than maintain that.
I agree with the rest of your post.
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#239 Its_an_Outrage
Thanks for the response. I keep hoping to find someone with rational evidence-based arguments for supporting the UK union, but alas ......
On the economy btw, the best analysis (known as GERS) around suggests that Scotland's fiscal deficit has been of the same order as the UK as a whole for many years. Too high, in other words!
Somehow, I don't think your Serbo-Croat song will help much :-), any more than a knowledge of Dutch would be useful in understanding Catalonia! If you really want to know about the Velvet Revolution which allowed the peaceful separation of the Czechs and Slovaks, there's lots of good information on Wikipedia!
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#242 ghostworld
Has there been a climb down on Airport ID cards ?
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I dont know about airport ID cards but it looks like the national ID card has hit the buffers.
Alan Johnson, has announced the death of compulsory ID cards in a significant Government climbdown over the controversial scheme.
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215. At 2:48pm on 30 Jun 2009, greatHayemaker wrote:
'And it is not the comments on this forum that led to the rise of the BNP vote, you will find, if you bother to check, that most of the posters here condemn the BNP.'
Posts 49, 62, 91, 97, 102, 115 and 136 are all supportive in different ways of the BNP and its stance, and no one batted so much as an eyelid. One 'ZanuLiebour' poster makes a comment and eight posters jump on him.
Of course it is not the comments on this forum that led to the rise of the BNP vote - that would be a crazy suggestion - but the mixture of anger and childish namecalling is symptomatic of a 'backlash' culture - one that votes in haste, and protest, without carefully thinking over the results.
'The one thing the BNP have in abundance is a sense of integrity. They are unpleasant, thuggish and objectionable, but they say what they think and mean what they say, a commodity desperately lacking in the mainstream parties.'
I don't think you can label any party who openly preaches hatred and racism having 'integrity' in 'abundance' or otherwise - and the fact you are prepared to defend any aspect of them frankly scares me. I do understand that people feel they can't trust whatever promises mainstream politicians make, that the system is corrupt and that dramatic (and needed) reform feels like it may never come - but high stakes mean cool heads and calm, respectful debate is all the more important.
'You can label the posters on this forum ignorant if you like, I am sure you will face up to the same accusation regularly.'
I guess that's just me 'saying what I think and meaning what they say' - hey, I guess that means I have integrity in abundance too, right?
'For myself I prefer to understand the reasons behind circumstances than just label anyone who disagrees with me as somehow inferior. I would find such an approach to be unpardonably arrogant, but thats just me.'
I believe it was you who derided a Labour supporters view a few mere posts ago as 'a constant source of amusement.' I don't find your approach to be 'unpardonably arrogant' - just hypocritical.
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Laughatthetories 209
I did not intend to offend you in any way, I apologise if I made an assumption that was not true.
I do not think I ever come out with hate words. I try to keep my posts as balanced as possible and stick to the truth as I see it.
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#241 Freeman
I'll give you a C+ for that answer. You understand that SNP policy is to remain part of the EU.
Quite why so many Brits like to personalise politics on party leaders as if the "fuhrer prinzip" is what matters puzzled me for a long time, until I realised that your strange concept of parliamentary sovereignty, and the lack of independence in your MPs through FPTP actually creates an elected dictatorship.
You don't get any higher a mark because you don't understand that it is no part of SNP policy to remove the monarchy. An Independent Scotland might decide to change later on, of course.
You would need to explain "a political disaster ..... did happen to the Czechs/Slovaks." It is a meaningless assertion as it stands.
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248. At 4:35pm on 30 Jun 2009, Roll_On_2010 wrote:
#242 ghostworld
Has there been a climb down on Airport ID cards ?
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I dont know about airport ID cards but it looks like the national ID card has hit the buffers.
Alan Johnson, has announced the death of compulsory ID cards in a significant Government climbdown over the controversial scheme.
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Cheers for that, i did find the article and it appears it is only a climb down on issuing airport workers with compulsory IDS .... Sadly no sign of the whole idea being scrapped ...Yet
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"Stick a red rose on the front and it could be a Labour manifesto."
Surely you meant "Stick a RED NOSE on the front"....
If the current government wasn't so seriously out of touch it just might be funny....
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214. At 2:48pm on 30 Jun 2009, intemple wrote:
"OTT cynicism just multiplies and doesnt serve anyone at the end of the day, as we have all seen."
Nonetheless, it is probably less damaging in the long-term to UK society than OTT belief in anything said by a politician nowadays.
Parliamentarians have "shot themselves in the foot" in terms of credibility, so why shoudn't people be cynical when any of them say anything about subject?
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#244
Nice one Sicilian29.
I refer the honourable gentleman to my blog #208 and #212 coolcameron19 posted earlier.
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another government U turn, end of compulsory ID cards....spinning away saying ID cards were never anything to do with terorism......
"The advantages are clear. An identity scheme will .... prevent multiple identities. One of the central features of terrorists' activity is their use of multiple identities to avoid laying tracks or patterns for us to spot."
.. G Brown speech to Royal United Services Institute in London.....
ID cards were of course a "manifesto commitment" ......
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Ed Balls, the Children's Secretary, has announced he is introducing a licence to teach in the Schools White Paper.
Under the plans, teachers will face checks every five years to ensure they are fit to teach under reforms outlined by the government.
Pity we didn't have a similar scheme imposed on those members who frequent that big palace in Westminster over the last 10 or so years.
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247. At 4:31pm on 30 Jun 2009, oldnat wrote:
#239 Its_an_Outrage
Thanks for the response. I keep hoping to find someone with rational evidence-based arguments for supporting the UK union, but alas ......
Sorry that it didn't help. Perhaps you could present your own evidence-based argument against the union, others could refute it, and opinions be changed or at least modified, as in all useful debates?
I see that you detected the one, small gap in my knowledge of the Czechoslovakian partition.
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#231 yellowbelly1959
And don't forget, Darling also 'predicted' that the recovery would start the second half of 2009. Just thought, that's tomorrow!
So, from now, things can only get better!
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249. At 4:44pm on 30 Jun 2009, Raz_the_Destroyer wrote:
215. At 2:48pm on 30 Jun 2009, greatHayemaker wrote:
'And it is not the comments on this forum that led to the rise of the BNP vote, you will find, if you bother to check, that most of the posters here condemn the BNP.'
Posts 49, 62, 91, 97, 102, 115 and 136 are all supportive in different ways of the BNP and its stance, and no one batted so much as an eyelid. One 'ZanuLiebour' poster makes a comment and eight posters jump on him.
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Please do expand and qualify your remarks regards the post numbers ... i had a quick look at 136 and frankly can not see how you have managed to link the BNP to it ..... I get the feeling you would link anyone to the BNP if they so much as whisperd the word immigration or said they were proud to be English
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"Roll_On_2010 wrote:
I dont know about airport ID cards but it looks like the national ID card has hit the buffers."
Looking at the link the government is now admitting that the ID cards won't stop terrorism, but the plan is still going ahead as it will help young drinkers to prove their age!
Any sensible government would scrap it but that would conflict with Brown's portrayal of Labour Investment versus Tory Cuts (even if the investment is in stupid schemes which probably would be better off cut!)
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Re 221: "Thats interesting, because when I studied the surveys back in my youth, I found that you could get any result you wanted based on the phrasing of the question and the "slice" of the population taken."
That is indeed possible but not the point being answered. The point I was making is that a sample size of 1000 for a large population is actually reasonably indicative if randomly selected. How the poll is worded is another matter. But as long as you read the exact wording of the poll and bear that in mind when interpreting the result, the sample size is ok.
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"The UK economy contracted 2.4% in the first quarter of 2009, a decline not exceeded in 51 years, according to the latest official data.
The decline was more severe than the earlier estimate of a 1.9% fall, and worse than analyst expectations.
The Office for National Statistics (ONS) blamed the sharp revision primarily on weaker output in the construction and manufacturing sectors."
Couldn't the ONS more correctly blame the clod-hoppingly incompetent idiot who has been in charge of the economy for the last 12 years?
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There is something very wrong here. Brown titles his manifesto "Building Labour's future" while also claiming to be the "Son of the Manse".
Q: Which son of the manse has not learnt the parable about building a house on sand?
A: Gordon Brown
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If the Editor of the Telegraph taped his telephone call from the Prime Minister when will he release it? (mentioned in Nick's radio 4 programme describing media coverage of the expenses scndal)
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Any chance to knock Labour on this boardblimey
Good policy or bad policy, at least GB is making policies.
You must be off your rocker to think the showboating old-etonians of the tory party could do any better.
Labour, best of a bad bunch but Labour any day over Tory.
Its a misguided initiative this under-25 malarky, but the thought behind it is sound.
Trying to stop a generation of young adults from facing constant unemployment is not a bad thing, whether that employment is an apprenticeship or flipping burgers, a generation in poor employment is far better than a generation of unemployed.
Stop being short-sighted and think of the big picture, not the small picture those over 16 and unemployed are currently in dire straits and its not going to get any better unless something is done.
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And the winner of todays acronym competition goes to - Invader-ZIM.
Lies
Are
Brown's
Only
Useable
Rhetoric
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"Roll_On_2010 wrote:
Under the plans, teachers will face checks every five years to ensure they are fit to teach under reforms outlined by the government.
Pity we didn't have a similar scheme imposed on those members who frequent that big palace in Westminster over the last 10 or so years."
Um... we do. Every five years those members have to go to the people and get voted back in for another five years. We call it a General Election, but often the same candidates get back in.
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Second place in today's Acronym competition went to Alistair Darling: -
Look
Another
Blunder
Obstructs
UK
Recovery
Well done Alistair.
If only you put as much effort in to your job as chancellor, then we would be out of this Labour induced financial coma.
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Re 233:
"- So it is your assertion that the public actually knowing what is going on, waking up and complaining about it, is a bad thing? Perhaps people should not have the right to chose how they want to be governed? We could always dispense with democracy altogether, instate Brown as dictator, and let the public live in ignorance as their country is flushed down the toilet. How dare the public comlain, how dare they!!!!!!!!!!"
No I neither wrote or think any of those things. I do however think that people seem to have a lot of time on their hands to moan when by most measures (and I think you'll find a journal such as the Economist would also back me up on this) nearly all of us have never had it so good. Therefore I'm wondering what is causing this strange set of affairs. While acknowledging for some these are very worrying times indeed in the short term at least.
- "You return to that oh so familiar lefty line. "You don't agree with me, therefore you are ignorant/bigotted/selfish". Incredible, simply incredible."
I think you might have to acknowledge that no particular political persuasion has a monopoly on this kind of behaviour. I'm suggesting since very few people on here seem able to acknowledge that which to me seems obvious - that most of us are better off than ever despite short term financial problems - then I'm suggesting there are other places where more intelligent, reflective debate goes on. Feel free to disagree but not by telling me you know I'm wrong?
- "Corrected. I was at a state school under the Tories, until I studied hard enough to earn a scholarship to a private one. I would not dream of sending my children to a state school now."
For info - there are a lot of poor quality private schools. Re hospitals - if anything serious happens you go or are referred to the NHS. Otherwise you are treated in admittedly nicer looking locations by NHS trained doctors. State schools have improved immeasurably in the last 10 years in my experience having now sent my own children there. Much more to do of course in both cases. The NHS needs to become less reactive and more preventative which will take time. But I don't think encouraging polarisation in society via education or healthcare is a healthy thing for a society. I don't object to anyone doing so however if they choose.
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My favourite acronym submitted by Ed Balls, and used to describe his best mate Gordon Brown.
Lugubrious
Asinine
Belligerent
Unhygienic
Obstreperous
Rectum
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Looks like NuLabour have a headache coming on:
Gordon Brown is risking another summer of leadership speculation by holding the by-election for Ian Gibson's seat, which Labour is likely to lose, just after the Commons rises for its holiday.
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Last year at the same time - just as MPs headed off for more than two months holiday - Mr Brown suffered the humiliation of losing the Glasgow East by-election to the SNP.
You cant beat it, better than TV, the Great British Political Soap Opera.
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#268 Mark_WE
Alas I saw that point as soon as I posted my comment. Thought I would get picked up on it.
Congratulations. Go to the top of the class.
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Great Hay
You ask a fair question - what could the Tories do to make me vote for them:
Abolish private education
Maintain hospital waiting lists at their current record low levels
Commit to adequate social housing
Nationalise the rail system
Reverse deregulation in public transport
Prioritise community
Ensure a fairer distribution of wealth
Reverse top up tuition fees
All things which I hoped Labour would do but, in most cases, haven't and now can't afford.
I'm not going to get into what my background is and how my parents voted but I like to think I'm sufficiently well educated to make a judgement on my own on the basis of what kind of future I want for my children.
(thankyou for a reasonably friendly post by the way)
Susan - sorry I didn't mean you in the earlier post - your response was not offensive at all.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
oldnat @ 234
I managed to find a bit time to concurrently listen to that programme on "Thatcher and the Scots" and thank you for that as it was pretty profound.
Listening to Mrs. Thatchers voice for an hour was fairly painful, even for a 'Southern' let another the Scots, for whom, as the progamme points out, was simply excruciating.
Alex Salmond made a wry comment re:Mrs T. and Scotland ... "she was no fairy godmother".
Gove was just irritating to this blogger but maybe that is just personal prejudice as he is yet another Scottish politician plying his trade in England (and milking the expenses like the rest of them).
Rifkind comes across as a quality politician and dispelled the myth that Thatcher imposed the poll tax on the Scots as some kind of deranged experiment on a 'lab rat'.
The programme certainly shows what a massive perception problem 'Dave' Cameron and the Conservatives have up there as he tries to cosy up to the Scots, realising that the 'Union' is going to be just one of the huge problems a Conservative administration will face, if elected to Government at Westminster in the next year.
I agree with your comment that England may have a more complex route to follow since the concepts of "English" and "British" seem to become interchangeable concepts instead of two identities sitting side by side, as in Scotland.
I think that is partly because the media often use 'Britain' and 'England' interchangeably (as if the other countries of the Union did not exist).
As a minor historical point, I sometimes watch stuff from WWII, documentaries of the period etc. and I noticed that even the enemies i.e Axis powers, often referred to their opponent as 'England', discounting the presence or value of Scotland and Wales completely. Or maybe they simply thought the whole place was England.
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There have been a few remarks, posted earlier, asking why bloggers on this site appear to hate Labour so much.
I normally try to present evidence on my own postings. I don't particularly hate Labour, but my patience is becoming sorely tested, like many others I suspect.
How can anyone have a rational debate with Gordon Brown when he flatly contradicts what is in his Chancellor's own budget? If reports are to believed even his own Cabinet know that cuts are coming, yet he and his henchmen pop up on television and tell us that spending will continue to increase.
So I think a reasonable man or woman can calmly conclude, on the evidence, as in a Court of Law, that Gordon Brown is a brazen liar.
We might also consider whether Labour ministers as a whole are serial liars, and bring in evidence their breaking the manifesto commitment to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Constitution/Treaty.
David Cameron's assertion that Brown is treating the British electorate as fools seems to be quite correct.
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Susan-Croft
Here's one you'll enjoy Susan.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/3725688/talking-balls.thtml
I always keep an eye out for Ed at PMQs to see what shade of puce he is...he looks like a 210/120 to me.
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Here's a question for you all - one that doesn't seem to have appeared on this as yet, (apologies if I have missed it)
Who is going to have the (Ed) balls to end public sector final salary pension schemes? (This includes MPs I assume).
We all know they have to go or the country will go bust, but who will blink first.
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274. At 5:48pm on 30 Jun 2009, Laughatthetories wrote:
Great Hay
You ask a fair question - what could the Tories do to make me vote for them:
Abolish private education
Maintain hospital waiting lists at their current record low levels
Commit to adequate social housing
Nationalise the rail system
Reverse deregulation in public transport
Prioritise community
Ensure a fairer distribution of wealth
Reverse top up tuition fees
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well they wont abolish private education ( and nor should they ) as most of their own kids go to private schools ..oh the irony
Can you explain to me what you mean of how you redistribute wealth ... do you mean everyone should earn the same wage regardless of job ?
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The Ex-Prime Minister deserves an honourable mention in todays acronym competition.
This was his effort: -
Lunatic
Ape
Becomes
Omnipotent
Unelected
Ruler
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278. Me
Why has 278 been referred? Mods, do you really live in fear of these people? The post is a topical link which has been passed on Nick's latest blog and the rest is a bit of fun. Lighten up and get a spine.
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249. At 4:44pm on 30 Jun 2009, Raz_the_Destroyer wrote:
215. At 2:48pm on 30 Jun 2009, greatHayemaker wrote:
'And it is not the comments on this forum that led to the rise of the BNP vote, you will find, if you bother to check, that most of the posters here condemn the BNP.'
Posts 49, 62, 91, 97, 102, 115 and 136 are all supportive in different ways of the BNP and its stance,
---------------------
No they aren't.
Just no no no.
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249
Look "integrity" up in a dictionary. You will find something alluding to honesty, truth etc. YOu appear to misunderstand.
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274
Well since the Tory's will not do these things, and neither will Labour, do I dare ask who you will be voting for?
You of course retain the right to not answer to this question, but I think you may swiftly run out of choices if you look for parties that will satisfy you criteria.
Top up tuition fees just about the fairest thing I ever heard of by the way. Can't imagine why someone should think someone else should have to pay for something that is going to benefit only him.
To put it in perspective, do you think it is fair that blue collar workers pay to educate white collar ones?
Private schools has been done to death in the past, so will not rehash here, people on either side have too many views on this that bare no relation to common sense.
Hospital waiting lists? I'll say again, I wouldn't let anyone in my family step into an NHS hospital.
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#258 Its_an_Outrage
"Perhaps you could present your own evidence-based argument against the union, others could refute it, and opinions be changed or at least modified, as in all useful debates?"
We've been having that debate in Scotland for at least 100 years! That the arguments have never been brought to your attention, is unfortunate. If you want some understanding, then I advise you to have a look at the "Thatcher and the Scots" programme that I referred John Constable to.
I understand that the constitutional debate is of very recent impact (probably too strong a word) in England, but you will be affected, so it would make sense to understand the arguments. If you want to engage in the discussions, you would be welcome to post on "Blether with Brian" - the BBC Scotland political blog.
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So what happens if someone says they'll suffer hardship because benefits are withheld?
What happens if someone from outside an area complains about being deprioritised on housing lists?
I can see the human rights lawyers lining up to make another killing off that (is it any surprise that the legal profession have done so well from this area, often using the law to over-rule what ordinary peopel see as justice, when the wife of the Prime Minister who introduced much of this works in that very area?).
Interesting soundbites - but inconsistent with, and limited by, previous policies.
As to housing - surely a downturn in the building industry means plenty of unemployed builders, plenty of spare capacity - something that could be used to the benefit of all, paying reasonable wages (not the rates expected by those used to the construction industry boom) to build social housing on the cheap.
Creating jobs and providing a necessary asset to the country.
(of course similar could've been achieved by allowing repossession of properties bought as investments on ridiculous 100% mortgages and then purchasing them at a substantial discount).
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274. Laughatthetories
Ensure a fairer distribution of wealth
=
Can you expand a bit on this one? By what means were you thinking?
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Hay
"Well since the Tory's will not do these things, and neither will Labour, do I dare ask who you will be voting for?"
Tough one isn't it? Might not bother at all.
As regards tuition fees - I can see the point from a selfish perspective - that those who benefit shoud pay etc but society as a whole suffers if no-one studies courses which are non-vocational, or, as is happening, only the well off study such courses. The poorer folk know they have to get a good job to pay the debts, the richer folk don't have that worry. You could argue that that's a good thing as we might get more engineers and programmers etc but I don't like the notion that it will be at the expense of, say, languages or literature.
I think I tend to look at this from a social perspective like many of the Left (apart from Blair who doesn't qualify), whereas maybe you are looking at it from a more personal perspective?
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Only when government's of any persuasion understand that to develop trade through policies that encourage private enterprise will this recession truly end and stimulate real growth. To develop policies that relies solely on borrowing is a complete disaster. When growing up I am sure Brown's Presbyterian father pressed home the old adage regarding thrift - "lender nor a borrower be". It is important to create wealth and to share it accordingly. It is however suicidal to share debt. When the great leveller looks in after the next election he will determine that the virtuous Protestant from Fife and his gang are nothing more than Madoffesque con artists.
His reign over the public finance has been perhaps the greatest living Ponsi scam. He should join his fellow grifter and also get 150 years in the slammer. Maybe even let him share a cell with his old best buddy the war criminal Blair. Because that is the length of time (if we are lucky) that due to his arrogance, incompetence, and deceit the nation will be condemned to the fringes of third world debt status and to the depths of 'shared' poverty.
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Compare and Contrast the Labour Government of the 70's with the one we have now.
The cyclic nature of politics is a curse that I deplore.
Labours irresponsible spending, gives the lazy more and more.
Tories champion business, fiscal responsibility their battle cry.
Then Labour empties the coffers, the cupboards bare, but still they lie.
Rubbish piled high in the streets, while unburied corpses rot.
1970s a stark reminder that, Labour bankruptcy cost us all a lot.
The many years of Tory rule, undid the Labour decimation.
But once again Labour has ruined, the finances of our nation.
Look back in time before you vote, your decision based on fact.
Britain once again is bankrupt and Gordon Brown, he must be sacked.
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Merv was kind enough to give us his take on what Labour means to him.
Lefties
Achieve
Bankruptcy
Of
Unparalleled
Renown
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281 Zim
I object to the use of the word Ape in your post. Apes are intelligent creatures worthy of our respect
With your origins I would have thought the word Android would have sprung to mind more readily ?
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294. At 9:18pm on 30 Jun 2009, xTunbridge
I sincerely apologise.
I tend to forget the true origins of the human race.
Sometimes I confuse them with rodents.
Anyway, a more appropriate term is probably Amoeba or maybe Aspidistra.
I suppose Aphid or even Armpit could also apply.
However, I will let you select the most appropriate term how about a synonym for donkey.
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295 Zim
Apolgy accepted. Armpit seem a good one.
Now what you got against donkeys ? They of the appendage to be envious of.
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Millions of English people don't want a Scot with no mandate from his Scottish constituents to make decisions for his Scottish constituency, making decisions for England.
Not content with being the worst ever Chancellor of the Exchecquer, Gordon Brown is now the worst Prime Minister. Ted Heath took some beating, but Brown has sailed past the guffawing sailor.
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290
Then may I suggest a change of username to something like "laughatlabourandthetories", or maybe "justlaugh", maybe something with humour instead of a weak and vindictive swipe at one particular party.
Selfish? Personal Perspective? Disagree completely. My children will have to pay tuition fees, and quite right too, as they are structured now there is nothing to pay upfront, but essentially an additional tax to be levied if they reach a sufficient earnings level (not sure what that level is off the top of my head), if you don't reach the earnings level, you do not repay the debt. I don't see how it is unfair for those who benefit from their education financially to be asked to foot the bill for it. Far from being selfish, this is just basic common sense. When I paid my tuition fees, they had to be up front, and although they were much lower, I can assure you that was far more of a hardship than the current system would have been to me.
As for encouraging more people to go to University, I think this is the last thing we should be doing. Their are so many arbitrary, frankly pointless degrees out there. In the good old days, people went to University if they needed to. Now they go just to add an irrelevent line to the bottom of their CV, because they think employers expect it to be there. In reality, many people would get far more from being in the workplace for an extra 3 years. And although University is a life experience, I think there are better ones than spending 3 years in a near constant state of inebriation.
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286. At 7:47pm on 30 Jun 2009, oldnat wrote:
#258 Its_an_Outrage
"Perhaps you could present your own evidence-based argument against the union, others could refute it, and opinions be changed or at least modified, as in all useful debates?"
We've been having that debate in Scotland for at least 100 years! That the arguments have never been brought to your attention, is unfortunate. If you want some understanding, then I advise you to have a look at the "Thatcher and the Scots" programme that I referred John Constable to.
I understand that the constitutional debate is of very recent impact (probably too strong a word) in England, but you will be affected, so it would make sense to understand the arguments. If you want to engage in the discussions, you would be welcome to post on "Blether with Brian" - the BBC Scotland political blog.
Ok Nat, you're loud and clear.. I think I'll just keep out of this as you suggest and free you to shake a weary head at the more learned Blether contributors.
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Gordon Brown is lying? Right. Is the David Cameron telling the truth?
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