Labour's long night of painful firsts
It was a long night of painful firsts for the Labour Party.
The first time that Labour has been beaten into third place by what we used to call a minor party - UKIP.
The first time - since 1918 - that the party has not come first in a Welsh election.
The first UK-wide election in which the Scottish Nationalists have beaten Labour.
The first time that the BNP has been elected to a parliament or assembly in areas where Labour's vote collapsed.
Those who dedicate their lives to the party will feel the pain and, looking at the success of the BNP, the shame of a night they will wish to forget.
Individual Labour MPs will now ponder what it means for their future in their patch.
That is unlikely in itself to restore enough momentum to unseat Gordon Brown.
It will, however, ensure that the leadership question will not be closed today, this week or next.
The prime minister may now be given the chance to unveil the policies he believes can dig his party out of the deep hole it is in - but, if the polls don't budge, his party will keep on talking about budging him.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~09~RS~)
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if he is more stubborn, voters will be even more.
from 3rd place they will finish 5th or 0.
we need elections now, so we can clean up the place, not Brown with his MPs.
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Daniel Hannon speaks for the nation. The rest is an irrelevance.
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The arogance of both Gordon Brown and the Labour party is astounding. When will they realise that it is us, the British public who want an election so we can democraticly elect our prime minister.
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Oh Dear, how sad, too bad never mind as the sargeant Major would say.
It won't make a jot of difference as Gordon will till see himself as the "Best man for the job" and he is assuming the job is drive labour into a 20 year wilderness. As I see it, if Gordon showed some guts and called an election he would a) retrieve some respect and b) Lose but fairly narrowly. Something like a sub 50 majority. Labour might lose two elections and be back in power somewhere around 2017 or 2018. If he clings on like a hobbit to his ring his "preciousssss" until the very last second he could condemn Labour to destruction and 20 years out of power as the Conservatives will win by a 100. Gordon is hated across the country from John O'Groats to Land's End via Anglesey. He, and his wife, are the only ones that don't see it. His lackeys see it but are too cowardly to co-ordinate the final coup. Mandelson sees it but knows his game is to smile and slither his way to the top. Unelected. Like Gordon. Yes I know Gordon is constitutionally valid, but in Harriet's court of Public Opinion he is still unelected and unwanted.
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Good grief - how much more can Gordon ignore??? There is arrogance and there is blind stupidity! Surely either option isn't an appropriate stance for an unelected leader of our country. He MUST be feeling a little insecure by now.....(and rightly so as far as I am concerned).
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Ummm technically the votes arent all in yet so you cant say whether or not UKIP are second and Labour third. At least you did meantion the SNP who appear to have a good result but we shall see tomorrow when the final results are out.
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Hi Nick,
It's clear that the 'less EU' parties - Tories, UKIP, Greens, Libertas, No2EU etc - have won this election overwhelmingly. They all think that the transfer of powers to the EU has gone too far and that radical reform is needed. They all oppose the Lisbon Treaty and support a referendum. You could even argue that this election was effectively the referendum first promised and then denied by Labour and the Liberal Democrats, and more than 63% have voted 'No' to Lisbon.
The question for Gordon Brown - at this sensitive time for faith our political system, when we are desperate for evidence that our political leaders are listening - is whether he will go to the next EU summit on 18-19 June and, despite this clear message, engage in another bout of EU 'carry on regardless'.
Carry on conspiring with others to push Ireland into voting twice on exactly the same rejected treaty. Carry on overlooking EU waste, fraud and pre-recession levels of lavish living while the rest of us tighten our belts. Carry on believing that Britain's ratification of the Lisbon Treaty carries any real democratic legitimacy.
Our political system simply cannot stand another incident of a clear public expression of opinion being ignored. Brown's fate rests not on the horror of the election result itself, which many could predict. But on how he now responds to it.
He now has a golden chance - maybe his final chance - to show us that he can deliver what the majority want. Namely, he must rescind our ratification of the Lisbon Treaty and, at the EU summit, start the process of getting powers back from the EU to Parliament. Start the process of making Parliament *matter* again.
His fate is in his own hands. Will he take that last chance, or will he bungle it?
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Agree with #4, #5 & #6. however,it sadly makes little difference to this, the worst PM in history.
Roll on June 2010......
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Nick,
You say in your blog:
'That is unlikely in itself to restore enough momentum to unseat Gordon Brown.'
I disagree. I think the meeting with backbenchers this evening may cause the event. More likely though, through abstentions or otherwise, I think the motion on Wednesday will be his final undoing. I also think Cameron will be less sympathetic at kicking a man when he is down at this week's PMQs!!
As ever, we wait and see, some more patiently than others!
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The voters are using the only mechanism at their disposal to say - 'Oi! Enough!'
Short of a revolution, what can the people of this country do to get rid of this incompetent bunch of clowns?
Listening to Mandleson on Andrew Marr I was physically cringing at the complete scorn, dismissiveness and arrogance that he shows for the people of this country.
Oi! enough!
The people's good is the highest law. - Cicero, De Legibus
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Of course Gordon Brown won't go of his own accord, Nick.
He wasnt elected into No 10, so he certainly won't leave it because of few poor election results (seemingly whether they be Council or European elections!) Clearly, the long held British belief and trust in the power of the Election Box, is now being systematically undermined and ignored. Democracy eroded.
So the Big problem now for the Labour party is, will someone, rise up, risk all, at this very last moment with an open challenge to his leadership, thus giving the Labour Party just a fleeting chance of victory at a General Election, or will they all quietly hide themselves away in collective cowardice, thus showing a watching electorate, that with the exception of the now martyred James Purnell, not one of them is courageous, or worthy, enough of leading their party, let alone the British nation.
Like it or not, General Election or not, Gordon is now surely leading them all out from the Last Chance Saloon and over to that nice Mr Bernard Matthews processing plant, where they won't need to take an early vote, as Christmas is quietly and irrevocably coming to meet them.
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We now live in a world where the BNP have two MEP's. More than anything, this should upset the left beyond all measure.
That is specifically and personally Gordon Brown's fault. Those people protesting in Manchester should not be stopping Griffin get to the count, they should be stopping Brown getting into No10 before he does any more damage.
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I hope UKIP coming second provides the straw that breaks Brown's back, They owe the British public plenty.
An examination of the Labour marginal results from 2005 shows a UKIP vote in many many cases in excess of the Labour majority.
Please do not let it happen again.
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In February, Harriet Harperson convened the court of public opinion.
The verdict is in. Will the defendants acknowledge it?
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The result in Wales says it all - Labour is finished.
Faith in Labour has been declining ever since the 'saintly' Blair took us into Iraq on a lie, since he fixed the Kelly Inquiry. Brown has finished the job by reducing this Country to its economic knees.
Now Brown clings onto office, not for the Country, but for the sake of the Party and his own personal ambition.
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What does the BNP's European vote translate into for a UK General Election? Whatever it is, I hope the Labour Party realises it is shoving and steering a segment of the British population towards outright fascism. The sweet irony is that Gordon Brown is himself behaving like a fascist - which I've always thought he is anyway - clinging to office in the face of the British people's desire for a General Election. Brown and his increasingly dishonest, indecent and ultimately pointless political party will pay dearly for their contempt of the British people.
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I think the BBC, the Tories amd Labour parties should try and understand why people have voted BNP instead of giving them bad press all the time.
The hard working tax paying voters feel they have no voice in this country where they are paying more and more and receiving less and less.
We see people who have contributed nothing to this country arrive and receive everything when our friends and families need help and receive nothing.
For example my friend is 62 and my mother 82 bith have very painfull varicose veins which they have to live with as the operation is deemed cosmectic. They have both worked and paid tax all their lives.
Wake up and see whats happening here.
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Nick
a reshuffle will fix it then we will all be fooled.
We need more unelected Lords to show that our Government is in tune with the voters.
It doesn't matter about the Nazi's because he's getting on with the job.
Tory Wales will fall back into line when they see how our great leader is leading they world.
Meanwhile in the real world the electorate is sick to the back teeth of this bunch of corupt re-treads.
THIS PARLIAMENT IS ROTTEN NOTHING BUT AN ELECTION WILL REMOVE THE STAINS
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Gordon Brown ignores the verdict of the people at his peril. They will never forgive him for hanging onto power with no mandate.
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Labour big wigs last night and this morning are once again spewing out the rehearsed phrrase. 'The people are blaming the party in Government for the expenses scandal'.
Total and utter rubbish!
If anything you would have expected the moat and the duck island to have caused more anger amongst the voters. But for stories like these The Conservative annihilation of Labour would have been even greater.
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The Labour government at Westminster has tainted everything.
We now have a "Government-Of-All-The-Cowards".
Labour only exists in order to maintain its grip on Westminster. That is the full extent of Labour's vision.
Labour are too cowardly to depose the most despised leader of all time and too cowardly to call an election.
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This just shows where all Brown's barefaced lies about the Lisbon Treaty and the referendum has got him. People resent being cheated, and it is now beyond doubt that there is no popular mandate for further federalism in Europe-and that's before an MEP expenses scandal blows up. Nick Clegg should take note too, although we know he's desperate to get back on the gravy train.
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Listening to the speech of the BNP leader I worry that a seismic shift has occurred in British Politics. There can only be one conclusion and that is in these hard times people are seeing things through a very narrow lens, the broader picture and implications are not being looked at by those voting BNP. The MP expenses thing has clearly shone through here in terms of the anger being expressed. Many did stay away however, I wonder how many of them are Labour supporters? High turn outs tend to give Labour an advantage. Many Labour supporters could not bring themselves to vote Tory, it is simply not something they can do. So the best thing is to stay away and register th protest that way, even if it means doing that in Wales. If I were David Cameron I would be quite clear that this is not over yet. The fat lady has not sung tonight because the Labour vote stayed at home. If the Labour Party had the guts to ask the Prime Minister to step down there is still a lot to play for as their natural constituency would return, in droves I suspect, as for many voting for a Eton educated, multi-millionaire, is simply too much.
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Day after day I read these blogs and become more and more depressed. I think I may have to stop.
The sad truth is that Gordon Brown has always been unelectable. Both Blair and Mandelson knew this so the only way he could ever become PM was by Blair leaving early.
Once Brown had tasted what he had craved for the last 15 years there was no way he would agree to step down. I'm afraid destruction of his party and the country come a poor second consideration to his own personal ambition. His recent interviews reveal a desperate man, in denial and near to mania. He reminds me of Chief Inspector Dreyfuss from the Pink Panther films.
With the disenfranchisement of the people maybe these blogs are the only way left for everyone to register feelings so maybe I won't stop reading the blogs after all.
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Almost half as many people voted for the BNP as they did for the Labour party! What does that tell you? If I was a labour politician I would not only be worried, but also totally ashamed of that result! But will we get admissions of policy failure, implementation failure and broken manifesto promises that will now be addressed, of course not! Instead we will get more comments on how the party will "listen and heed the lessons and win back these misguided voters". Unfortunately however nothing will change we will get more spin, lies and deceit and Labour therefore deserves everything that is coming its way....humiliation at the polls.
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14 sbpsman
"Gordon is now surely leading them all out from the Last Chance Saloon and over to that nice Mr Bernard Matthews processing plant, where they won't need to take an early vote, as Christmas is quietly and irrevocably coming to meet them."
An excellent analogy!
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Gordon Brown, the Labour Prime Minister who gave Fascism a voice in British politics.
May God forgive you, because we the people never will.
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If Gordon Brown continues with minor policy changes and doesn't give us the electorate the election we need to cleanse Parliament, then Labour will be consigned to the wilderness for decades. People will remember that they were so desperate to cling to power they would ruin this country rather than do whats right.
I for one will be outside Parliament on the 4th of July demanding a British Independance Day: Independance from this bankrupt, grasping, conniving, dead-as-a-dodo government.
They have lost the mandate to govern shown by the results of last weeks elections. They must go now, its that simple.
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Enough is enough, we don't want to hear any more Labour nonsense, the public have spoken and it's time for you to stop talking and start accepting.
Labour are dead in the water, you have an ex prime minister, your chance has expired, go, go now, you're not wanted anymore!
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Nick,
The BNP result is, for me, a direct consequence of anti-EU rhetoric by all/many people in the UK. The anti-immigration stuff, for whatever misguided reasons (economy, jobs) and crime, equally misguided in connecting rises in crime to immigration (specially Eastern-European countries) has brought an unbalanced fear, instead of a much needed unity between communities and peoples of the European community.
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A humiliating defeat of a humiliated Party lead by a totally humiliated Leader.
Wait for it: "I will do everthing in my power" the tune never changes.
Get the message?
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the trouble is a General Election now would benefit only the minority parties - Labour need time to avoid a complete meltdown - Cameron needs time, too, to build up some sort of enthusiam in the country for a period of Clown government ... it would be a shame to cheat him out of that time, wouldn't it?
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In the last few days, Gordon Brown has reiterated - ad nauseam - that the British people want him to 'get on with the job'. Sadly, he's been saying this since he became PM and the phrase is wearing a little thin. The elections last week surely suggest that the British people want him to take notice of what they really think.
He may, as his supporters suggest, be 'good on policy', but he does not have the required leadership qualities it takes to unite the country in bad times. Leadership qualities include a strong, likeable personality - not, heaven forbid, 'celebrity' - and, regrettably, he still presents a dour image, not helped at all by the contrived bonhomie with which he has recently tried boost his character. I suggest it's time for him to go.
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Neither his friends or his enemies in The Labour Party are willing to face a General Election because they are fully aware of the probable consequences. We have reached a stand off that will last until May 2010. The Government will be paralysed in terms of the policies they can bring forward and it is the country that will suffer.
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#35:
I hear what you are saying and once again agree with you that the main parties need more time to get their message accross. However I don't believe the extra time will benefit The Government. I think it's more likely that the meltdown will be more pronounced as people become more and more annoyed that they continue to cling on in spite of their unpopularity.
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Nick Robinson should stand accused with his various compadrés of making rather than reporting the news.
Whatever I think of Brown, does anyone seriously expect that elections, poorly supported Europe-wide - where candidates are indeed joining the ranks of faceless bureaucrats and parties like the BNP and UKIP prosper because of it - have any meaning whatsoever?
Only, it seems, if you want to perpetuate the big 'Brown' hunt. Note it is guaranteed that 99% of those bothering to vote in the Euro elections would neither know the candidate and/or the policies! Where is there any credibility to your assertions that this should ultimately bring the Prime Minister down? Listen to yourself, it's pathetic.
Add to that council elections, well known as a protest vote on a national scale, taken as a major signal that Brown was not wanted. What complete and utter rubbish. ask John Major!
Then rebellions. Nick - Purnell aside, there has been NONE in the cabinet and the evidence was well and truly shredded by Peter Mandelson yesterday when he turned your colleague, Andrew Marr, into a jibbering wreck.
Please cencentrate on reporting news and staying objective. You have tried to create a Cabinet revolt which is just not there and promote the murmurings of disaffected and largely ignored (Raynsford, Falconer, Flint) backbenchers and political has-beens into an organised push against Brown. You are, in effect, making a mockery of your own profession and when this all comes to nothing perhaps you could
should consider your own position.
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I think we can now look forward to a Mandleson stitch up Mk1. Tonight Barry Sheerman will get his way and there will be a secret ballot amongst Labour MPs over Brown`s leadership.
This ballot will be on a par with the vote over the Iraq War when there was a lot of arm twisting behind closed doors. Promises over anything will be given to Labour MPs to ensure Brown wins.
Mandleson`s strategy will be to close down debate about the Labour leadership until the next General Election.
That is providing nothing else goes wrong for Gordon - but it usually does.
What would Brown do without Mandleson. The bigger question is, why is Mandleson so concerned about keeping Brown in post? What`s in it for him?
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So overall Labours vote is the only one which declines sharply so this is a clear message to labour, its not about expenses. What no one appears to be debating is us,the public. What more do we have to do, what other lawful, peaceful and democratic means are left to voice what we want. In fact is anyone interested in what we want, not what the parties want or think we want. It seems not to me.
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27
"His recent interviews reveal a desperate man, in denial and near to mania. He reminds me of Chief Inspector Dreyfuss from the Pink Panther films."
29
"as Christmas is quietly and irrevocably coming to meet them."
hahahahohoho...some good coming out of all this in the turn of phrases from yr readers Nick!
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Gordon Brown has never been elected prime minister by the people of Britain. They have once again cast their verdict on this, and the state of his leadership. To hell with what labour party members want, the country wants an election, and now!
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Hands up anyone who thinks the discussions currently being held at No.10 have anything whatsoever to do with what is best for the country. No... thought not.
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Dear Nick,
BNP got elected because they canvassed on subjects (Za)Nu(Improved)Labour called racist.
Mass un-checked immigration.
Xxxx
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Why should one man takes all the credits and all the blames.
Of course, the man at the top had to shoulder more blame. But could this have happened if every politicians is clean?
Do the politicians seriously believe the voters are voting against GB and not against politicians in general?
Trust is earned, not won, taking responsibilities is a good start.
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The BBC seem to be being biased - as they always refer to "The right wing British Nationalist Party"
Is there a "left-wing British Nationalist Party"? To be consistent they should therefore speak about the "left wing Liberal democrats", the "left of centre labour party", the "right of centre conservative party" and the "eurosceptic UKIP".
It's like the Northern Ireland marching season where marches are held down "The mainly nationalist garvachie road"
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Brown won't go, he'll have to be pushed. He arrived unelected he does not want to go down as the first prime minister in modern times to hold office without a popular mandate and lose it without an election. The personal damage to him is too great. I would expect a 14 day window in which Labour will get the support needed for a vote. The media must love this! As for an alternative we don't really have one, the political class are all the same. We don't have a single statesman/woman in politics now keen on putting the country first and self interest a very poor second, what happened to public service.
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"The Labour Party's rules are written to make it extremely hard to oust a sitting Labour Prime Minister who refuses to resign. For a leadership election even to be held, 70 MPs would have to nominate a challenger. A contest would then need the approval of party members and trade unions at a full party conference" (from the DT).
So, anyone who thinks Gordon Brown will be leaving office in a hurry should think again. The British people may be apoplectic with rage at the Labour Party's incompetence; it may look on aghast at the Government's utterly disastrous economic and social track record; it may believe that Gordon Brown has been a catastrophically bad (and illegitimate) Prime Minister; we, the people, may want a General Election now.
Forget it. Gordon Brown's very own brand of fascism beats anything the BNP can come up with.
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"What would the electorate think if we turned our backs on them now?"
Well, actually mister Brown... we'd cheer, we'd laugh and hug each other. Tears of joy would run down our faces and small children would grasp the sensation that something great is beginning and something bad is ending... in short, HOPE WOULD BE RESTORED!
Stand down now please... pretty please?!!!
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Here's a first; a party scores 15.4% in a national poll but fails to sack its leader and remains in government for eleven months.
What newlabour MP or apologist can possibly claim the faintest degree on legitimacy to the governement or leadership of Gordon Brown.
If there is any justice in the world the Quenn will tell Gordon Brown at their next meeting that he has no mandate, no authority and no legitimacy. Quite simply, why on earth should she utter the words..my government... at the next Queen's speech.? Elected by whom? Supported by whom? With what mandate?
Meanwhile government ministers plod on with their lack of the faintest political antennae, the latest being Andy Burnham who tragically declares today a sad day for British politics? For whom, Andy? Not for the 85% who registered freely their oppostion to you and all you stand for.
Anyone who utters the words, I will not walk away from this, is allready on the way out. The whole country knows it.
Dissolve parliament. Call an election.
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This is not a defeat, it is a vote of no confidence by the people for its governmemnt.
Let us see if we do actually live in a democracy, let us see a general election called.
If it is not called labour will be obliterated in the next election and suffer the most excrutiating period of government ever seen over the next year.
Jericoa
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Having watched Brown yesterday I was wondering what planet he lived on.
He stated that it was right to invest as he was in apprentiships, university places, help with mortgages and for small businesses, school and hospital buildings.
Well in the real world out side the bunker:-
The goverment claim that there are 30,000 new goverment apprentiships created this year. A survey discovered that will over 90% of those so called new apprentiships were actually for EXISTING staff and a lot of the rest were rebranded training jobs. In my area I now know of 27 apprentiships (including my daughters boyfriend) from goverment funded bodies that have been closed down. In my daughters boyfriends case the entire apprentiship department closed placing over a dozen on the dole in one stroke.
University places. Expensive but extreamily important courses and departments (physics, astrominay, chemistry, engineering and electronics)are closing, the percentage of graduates that are taking history, literay and arts courses is increasing at an alarming rate, the drop out rate is shooting up, and the average salary of graduates after 12months in the jobs market is falling. It looks like this year 180 thousand graduates will be fighting over under 100 thousand graduate jobs (a vast majority of those jobs are in the public sector).
Last year rules came in place that any teenager who acheaved average or above science at stats would be able to take the 3 sciences as seperate GCSE's YET under 50% of schools offer the 3 sciences.
Almost NO schools offer Computer Programming, Computer design/repair, Engeneering or Electronics at ANY lever let alone GCSE or A Level. IT teaching is restricted to word processing and spreadsheets and possibily writing a simple macro. The only computer programmers are either in their 30's or self taught, the games and software indrustry is leaving the UK due to lack of a new skilled workforce.
School leavers (or the under 20's) are being promised that after 12 months with no job they will be garanteed further education / training, a job or an apprentiship. This policy will mean that all school leavers will start their working life with a year on the dole. This is because this years leavers in July will not be able to get a job (thare are almost none in the UK), they will sign on and at the point that they have been unemployed for a year the next batch of school leavers will join them. Employers will have the option of the current years leavers or the previous years who come with a goverment back hander to get employment. Which would you employ?
As for his schools and collages rebuilding, this policy has fallen into schambles with collages being told they have ringfenced cash and can start work only to find that they dont. And like ALL capital expenditure by Brown it is done on very very expensive PFI. Schools that want to take up the new building program have to submit 3 complete designs from 3 different arcutects costing in some cases millions before one is approved and then built. All funding is under PFI that has an average charge of around 10% interest and contracts are signed so that adding a new power socket or changing a light bulb costs hundreds. We even pay if the building is unused and in a lot of cases dispite paying a fortune the building and site belong to the PFI company after the 25year lease!
Gordan get out of your bunker and actually listen to what is going on in the REAL world!
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I am a behavioural expert and make my living by advising companies whether the people they are about to employ are up to the job in question. Sadly, ever since it emerged that Gordon was going to be Tony's successor, I have known that disaster was inevitable.
There are two aspects to matching people with jobs: eligibility and suitability. Brown is definitely eligible, but equally definitely totally unsuitable for the role of Prime Minister in today's world.
Sadly, it is often impossible to explain this to hopeful candidates desperate to land what they think is their "dream job." No matter how much the want it, no matter how much THEY believe they will do an excellent job, no matter how hard they try to be something they are not, their natural personality will emerge, often sooner than later, to scupper their chances of success.
Had I been asked for a recommendation, Brown would not even have got an interview, let alone make the short-list. This does not make him a bad person, or even an incompetent one; just unsuited to the job of PM. He should have stayed at the Treasury where he was, arguably, doing a good job - apart from letting the Banks of the leash, but that's another story!
Poor Gordon - he just doesn't get it...
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"43. At 08:11am on 08 Jun 2009, pavlosmac wrote:
Gordon Brown has never been elected prime minister by the people of Britain. They have once again cast their verdict on this, and the state of his leadership. To hell with what labour party members want, the country wants an election, and now!"
Slightly wrong, when Labour went to the country at the last election at reqular press conferances (though it was not in their manifesto) Blair repeatedly stated that he (Blair) would be PM for the majority of the parliment, standing down just before the next election and handing over to Brown.
I.E. Brown did have a mandate when he became PM, but that mandate as promised at the last election was to call a gerneral election at the earliest possible moment. He has failed that mandate!
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The most telling comment in this whole blog is
"The prime minister may now be given the chance to unveil the policies he believes can dig his party out of the deep hole it is in"
Notice the emphasis on the party. No hint of policies to dig the country out of the mess it is in (one trillion pounds of debt and rising, before you even count public sector final salary pensions or Gordy's beloved PFI schemes). Clearly the few hundered MPs who will lose their jobs at the next election matter far more to Gordon than the millions of ordinary people who are already losing their jobs.
Perhaps if we had a government who just once would actually put the needs of the county ahead of their own self interest and the needs of "the PARTY", the voters would not have just elected two right wing extremists as MEPs
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My view, devoid of nick robinsons obsessive comments is that a large number of Labour voters have protested by voting minor parties. This is a protest against Euro policy, expenses,and immigration.Interestingly they have not turned to conservatives or Libs. The question is how would they vote in a general election and I beleieve it is quite possible that the realisation that they could end up with a tory government will return them to Labour, especially those of us who remember the last tory government.
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Labour might have to change its rules, it looks like thay will not have 70 MPs after the next general election. We/They could be stuck with Brown as leader for the next 5+ years untill they actually get 71 MP's to vote him out (they need 71 as he will NEVER vote against himself or resign).
Is this Browns master plan to stay in control?
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I do enjoy it when people decide to toss around percentages and they conveniently forget the context.
Europe-wide this is the lowest turnout ever at just 43.1% and the UK turnout was lower than that!
I hardly think the UK people have spoken about anything given 60% of them didnt turn up to express an opinion. "Just can't be bothered" was the general remark around my place of work. Can we conclude that they are satisfied or disaffected. Either viewpoint is valid given they failed to turn up and have an opinion.
Maybe now our current politicians will be brave enough to make voting complusory. Would certainly concentrate the minds if 97-100% of the electorate turned up to vote wouldn't it?
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Brown will stay, hoping to squeeze a hung parliament out of the next elections, which he then can present as a victory (victory relative to polls today, not opinion polls late summer 2007).
The hung parliament is not such a far-fetched idea. Many benefit claimants and public sector employees will vote labour in general elections because that is in the interest of their wallets. Voting UKIP or SNP at european or local elections does not come at the cost of getting a conservative government in that most likely will put a lid on government spending. With 28% of households receiving more than half their income from the government, that hung parliament is certainly not out of Brown's reach. Labour got 36% of the vote in the last general elections, while in many households receiving benefits or with one employed in the public sector, there is perhaps also another relative keeping a firm eye on maxing benefits or public sector pay. Brown has been cultivating this angle for many years when he expanded the reach of means-tested benefits and boosted public sector employment.
Constituency boundaries favour labour and postal voting are other aces that Brown holds up his sleeve.
Expect the beeb, the guardian and the mirror to talk up the lib dems in the next months, in addition to attacks on the conservatives. It will all help to get the hung parliament that opens the way for a labour-lib dem coalition government headed by .... Brown.
Sell gilts and sterling (remember that 100 billion pounds per annum structural budget deficit; Roger Bootle today writing in the telegraph that he expects a 16% budget deficit next fiscal year).
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Could I add, the first time that Nick looked uncomfortable and weak questioning Labour ministers because he could see their depression and extrapolate to the loss of a Labour government?
In all this, however, can someone help me understand how the Labour vote has increased so dramatically in Leicester? Totally against the rest of the country. What specific factors were at play in that area?
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I don't know why people are acting so surprised re Gordon Brown & ZanuLab not going to the country in a General Election. It has been obvious for many years before Brown was 'elected' Prime Minister that once he had achieved power he would not relinquish the reins, irrespective of the circumstances. I fully expect the nearer we get to an election which would mean certain defeat for ZanuLabour, we will have an ever increasing 'swerious security situation' or something similar that will make it plausable for Brown to 'postpone' the election until matters are resolved (i.e. Labour have a good chance of winning). Even if a vote of no confidence was passed in the HoC, Brown/Mandleson would find a way to ignore it. Whaever happens, this 'axis of evil' will find a way to cirumvent the will of the people. The alternative answer to this potential conundrum frightens me to death. Such is the responsibilty of the Parliamentary Labour Party and the decision it has to make over the next day or so.
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Quite honestly all I am hearing is about the survival of G. Brown and Labour. I really do not care about either, why is no one talking about the survival of the Country. Labour at the moment represents no one, it has lost its sense of purpose and its mandate to Govern. Labour needs to go into opposition to get back to its core values. It has totally lost sight of the reason why people voted for them in the first place.
This really is not about Labour and Conservatives its about uniting the Country in time of recession and crisis and Labour just cannot do this. Any Government that has allowed the BNP to win 2 seats shows the discontent within the Country and that they have ignored the public on key issues that they are concerned about. If immigration is controlled as it was under the last Conservative Government the problem of the BNP disappeared. These people did not vote for the BNP because they are racist they voted for them because they could see their lives being changed because of uncontrolled immigration and no one was listening. Now if no one sits up and takes notice soon it will lead to further problems of discontent throughout the Country.
It is time some in the Labour Party got some backbone and put the Country first instead of wanting to remain in power at any cost. We need an election so that people see that they are getting a say and not just being controlled by Brown and his cronies. Changing policies after having 12 years of labour Government would just be a farce. The Country needs a fresh start with new ideas, not a change of leader, only then will we make progress as a Country.
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Just one correction. I don't think the Labour party has been behind the Conservatives in Wales EVER. The Labour party was formed in 1900. Between 1900 and 1918 I suspect the Labour was behind the Liberals. This is basic stuff even form those of us that just do politics for fun!
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Nick,
You ought to compare this result with 1994, when the Tories were mired in the mess of the fall out from Lawson's bust and the ERM debacle.
In the midst of that, the Tories won 28% to Labour's 44%!
To win just 15% shows how truly awful Labour's performance has been and it has to be said that Brown's economic record is contributing to this and claims of his brilliance really do need challenging.
Labour trot out the line about sorting out the economic crisis time and time again, but it is Brown, who spent £180bn more than he got in in taxes between 2001 and 2008, pushing debt up in the good times and making no preparation for bad time, who made that crisis worse for Britain.
Please, check the figures on the Nat Stats website and throw them at the next Labour minister to tell you Brown is the man to sort this out!
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Harriet Harman says "People expect Gordon Brown to sort out the economy and clean up the expenses problem and that is a massive responsibility on him but he is very resilient and that is what he will do."
Sorry Harriet. Stop deluding yourself. The people do not expect anything from Gordon Brown, but to dissolve parliament and call an election.
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Regardless of the winners and losers last night, I'd just like to congratulate Nick Robinson on his excellent in depth knowledge and analysis of such a difficult system to commontate upon.
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trikynik 54
Behavioural expert ? thats not even a proper job. Seeing as alot of companies are struggling in a global recession maybe you should take some of the blame ?You dont have to be an expert to guess your persuasion.So you have foresight as well, are you nick robinson in disguise? You just dont get it
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Did I read this right? Labour fifth in the South East & South West!
8.2% of the vote in the South East and 7.7% in the South West.
When will Gordon realise that he is the problem not the solution for the Labour party.
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I was struck on Friday by the attempts by the TV coverage (both Sky and BBC) to make what was really a rather boring re-shuffle of the Cabinet into 'high drama' for the sake of the cameras and to throw caution to the wind with some of their conclusions.
O.K. I'm not particularly knocking that.
Hopefully today, as events pan out, we will hear a lot more remarks caveated with "According to rumour ...", "Whilst it has not been officially announced, it is speculated that ..." "Some sources have suggested ..." as opposed to the "as we already know, Alistair Darling will not remain as Chancellor" level of certainty of comment.
I am still of the view that professional journalists, who should have performed better, allowed themselves to be 'wrong-footed' over whether Alistair Darling would move or not. When the political shananigans gets to the heightened state of a possible change of prime minister, there will be more 'wrong-footing' of the press going on - and some of it very deliberate.
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First off I didn't vote BNP, nor backed them in any way. (Shame people have to say things like that in a 'democracy')
Why is it the BBC can't understand the BNP thing?
Nearly half as many people voted for them as voted for labour.
People are voting for them because, quoting one poll, over 80% of the population believe there is too much imigration. Despite that, in many settings people could not even say that, let alone do anything about it.
If any of the major parties want to even allow people to discuss the issue, let alone do anything about it, then may be people would not feel a need to (effectively) waste their vote on a minor party which could never form a government.
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Labour decimated in Wales, embarrassed in Scotland. Is this the end of Labour as a British party? Not that Labour in England looks that pretty either..
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there is indeed a left wing Nationalist Party wee johnnie, Nellist and Crowe's - No2EU party with the ludicrous name. Personally I find it interesting that the BNP is always described as right wing - because of the association with Nazism I suppose - but it's vote largely comes from disaffected Labour Party supporters. Mind you looking at the illiberal policies on id cards, detention without trial and so on, as well as the British Jobs for British Workers rhetoric maybe I shouldn't be suprised.
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@ Strongholdbarricades (61)
Re surpirse pro-labour swing in Leicester: look into nr of postal votes there (or is postal voting not allowed in euro elections?)
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Just a thought, Brown and his supports are saying "He is the ONLY persion who can save the economy" if thats the case he does not need any more tax payers money to do it!
Come on Brown put YOUR money where YOUR mouth is! Stop flushing ours down the pan!
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I am not a natural Labour supporter but I would regret and fear a complete collapse of the Labour vote because only the most ardent Conservative supporter would welcome them having power with no-one holding them to account.
This, then, is the basis to my concern about Gordon Brown staying on. I don't want to get at him to bash the Labour party - quite the opposite. I fear that if he does not go then a bad loss will become a complete rout.
Many have said this should be about policies rather than personalities but, in order to carry out policies, votes need to be won and Gordon Brown is definitely an electoral liability to the Labour party.
I understand those who are afraid of pressing the emergency button for fear of making things worse - but how much worse could they be for a once proud major party?
I was interested in the comments of Peter Hain on Friday night, (when he was trying to support Gordon Brown), where he was listing the negative effects of a leadership change. My quotes are from memory but the sense is correct. He said a change of leader would result in :-
A caretaker government led by an unelected leader without the power or authority to provide strong leadership and government during a financial crisis.
That really describes the current situation with the current leader. Gordon Brown is so weakened and compromised that, even if he were the best person for the job, there is a great danger that he will not be able to do what is necessary because of his weakened position - and that is not good for any of us.
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Why is Daniel Hannon wasted in the EU, he could name his seat right now.
Our great leader must be under enormous pressure now despite his narrow escape last week; i suppose now we will see whether NuLab MPs have what it takes. Irregardless, they have to show what they are made of now - men or mice.
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Nobody expects the PLP to get rid of Brown. If I were a Labour backbencher I would abandon Westminster now and set about getting myself re-elected. Labour has to rebuild from the bottom up and forget being a party of power for a generation. The party is more important than the government. Get to the life-boats and abandon Brown. Every person for themselves!
Before the expenses scandal I remarked that the prospect for Labour was a wipe-out. They should be grateful that the expenses row which has tainted all mainstream parties has if anything prevented the total collapse that could have happened as it drove the dissenters to the minor parties or into not voting at all.
The problem that the PLP has is that the public spending cuts planned by the current government but not advertised will begin to cut in by the autumn. This makes the prospect of the party recovering on the back of an economic bounce by the spring about zero.
Labour is going for wipe out at the next election. The electoral system will to a point prop them up so that the party will survive to a degree. The government won't; so save yourselves, boys and girls!
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# 72 Shandon397
"Is this the end of Labour as a British party?"
Yes, I wonder just what the Labour Party is for? Socialism is and was always a flawed idea. As we're finding out now, redistributing wealth and spending money on the welfare state and other weird and wonderful state-sponsored jobs, like there's no tomorrow, is all very well until, er, the money runs out. Despising entrepreneurs and wealth creation (if not saying so explicitly) doesn't help either (to say the least!).
All Labour governments end this way, ie in economic chaos. The only difference this time is that Gordon Brown has been so spectacularly clever at stealing our money ("stealth taxes"), piling up public sector debt and wasting it all on a biblical scale, that the economic meltdown on this occasion is unprecedented.
So, indeed, what on earth is the Labour Party for?
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Thanks Gordon. You managed to spectacularly lose your own vote so badly last night that the people of Yorkshire and Lancashire voted in the BNP. The day after the 65th anniversary of the deaths of so many brave young men who laid down their lives to stop fascists from entering this country. The vile insidious Nick Griffin will now claim that he was VOTED in whereas you Gordon.... you're too scared to even face a vote of the British people.
That's another one to chalk up for your CV of democractic victories Gordon.
The vile insidious Nick Griffin will now claim that he was VOTED in whereas you Gordon.... you're too scared to face a vote.
Nobody in the Labour Party has the spine to challenge this man and he will lead your party to the final and ultimate humiliation when the sand timer runs out and he HAS to call an election. If you think this weekend was bad; wait until this time next year. People will be more than mad by then.
Until we are given a General Election the country will limp on in limbo with a delusional Leader it hates so much. Gordon has retreated to his bunker to grasp hold of the little power he has left, just like in the final days of the Reich.
What a joke.
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I really do think people need to stop comparing current events with previous leadership challenges within the Tories, e.g. Thatcher and Major.
It's like comparing bankruptcy as done under USA law with bankruptcy as done under UK law. Yes they are similar, but they are also very different because the rules of the game are very different.
If Gordon Brown were a Tory Prime Minister he would already be gone. As a Labour leader - as he and his supporters well know - he has a very good chance of pulling off staying in place until the next General Election.
All that really seems to be happening here is that his critics, one by one, are raising their heads above the turrets and giving their positions away.
The Cabinet members seem to have pretty clearly decided what side their own slices of bread are buttered on. That may perhaps be not for the most altruistic of reasons.
For sure, Gordon Brown is hardly an Obama, or even a Blair, when it comes to how he presents in the media. Does that make him a bad prime minister? Perhaps and perhaps not.
On the other hand, if we demand, as a society, (as seemingly the US has) to only have the most slick, word perfect, media savvy of 'celebrity performer' heads of government, then doesn't that perpetuate having 'career politicitians' over having people's representatives in both Parliament and Government?
Increasingly I fear we're facing a choice having either a democratic, or a media-managed, government.
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*46. puzzling
"Why should one man takes all the credits and all the blames".
Its called being in charge. Success or otherwise is determined by one individual steering the boat in the right direction. Get it wrong and you sack the captain.
Gordon Brown unfortunately is now so deluded he no longer knows when he is telling right out porkies or not (I never had any intention to move Alistair Darling a prime example. Low paid workers will not be worse off with the removal of the 10p tax band) How can we ever trust this individual again? It was he who sought to put the publicaton of MP`s expenses on the back burner until after the next general election. Wonder why? Now he is going round, telling anyone and everyone he is the best person to clean the system up.
He was in the cabinet when the decision was made under TB`s leadership in 2004 to allow MPs to flip houses so he can hardly claim to be the right person to clean it up now. Or do we now have a bunch of poachers turned gamekeepers?
The local and EU elections were a clear vote of no confidence in GB and his cabinet. He will undoubtedly stagger on - Mandy will see to that. But we will have a government paralysed by fear - just waiting for something to go wrong and it finds itself in the mire again.
Nothing will get done until after the GE. UKPLC will get further into debt as Brown carries on regardless - spending money by the bucket load which we do not have just to keep his toadies quiet.
Its been said many times but how true it is - Brown`s government is financially and morally bankrupt.
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Harriet says "People expect Gordon Brown to sort out the economy and clean up the expenses problem...."
Can I ask Harriet what makes Gordon the best person to clean up the expenses problem, when there is a person in the current government who was forced to resign, twice, on some very dodgy looking circumstances?
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What miserable drones and traitors have we nurtured and promoted who let their people be treated with such shameful contempt by a low-born PM! Will no one rid us of this turbulent man?
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After this next set of election results, if Labour ignore them.... As I beleive they will... Then it is up to people like Nick and Andrew Marr to harry them on our behalf. BBC Jounalists have the chance to ask the questions we want to ask, but appear to roll over and die rather than press the point.
This is a Governemnt that now has a significant number of unelected cabinet ministers... Has a number of ministers of cabinet rank who have been sacked or demoted under (at best) dubious circumstnces. Has deployed British Troops on more operations than any other government since world war two but significnantly deosn't have a single MP who has worn uniform. Has managed, under various education secretaries to cock up the examination system in education and so on and so on. They are not good at anything. Start attacking them with bit of vigour PLEASE.... Where is the "radical" left when you need it?
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Please stop calling the BNP "far right". They are extreme socialists.
Their economic and social policies are reminscent of Labour in 1983 and it is only their immigration policy - which is abhorent - which is in any way "right wing". Indeed, it ought properly to be called facist.
Lord Tebbit was, I think, correct - and the votes on Thursday back him up, that the BNP are "Labour with racism added".
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It is a little disconcerting that very few political editors and journalists (if any...)when questioning either the Prime Minister or the de-facto Deputy Prime Mininster (Lord Mandelson)ask them the reasons why the then "Honorable" Peter Mandelson had to resign from the Cabinet in disgrace, not once but twice!. Does that tally with the Prime Minister Presbyteran upbringing? Why does the PM now appoints the wife of a former European Union Commissioner (Lord Kinnock) who sacked a Euro MP from Denmark, who had the temerity to blow the whistle on the Euro MP's abuse of allowance? Does that tally with the Prime Minister telling us constantly of his honesty and integrity?
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47. At 08:17am on 08 Jun 2009, weejonnie wrote:
"The BBC seem to be being biased - as they always refer to "The right wing British Nationalist Party"
Is there a "left-wing British Nationalist Party"? To be consistent they should therefore speak about the "left wing Liberal democrats", the "left of centre labour party", the "right of centre conservative party" and the "eurosceptic UKIP".
It's like the Northern Ireland marching season where marches are held down "The mainly nationalist garvachie road""
I totally agree.
Furthermore, I would dare to suggest that it's caused by well intentioned but inadequately self-critical people trying to make the endless hours of "rolling news" vaguely exciting and dramatic.
It's like everything else - with just so much news coverage to be pushed out onto the media nowadays less and less of it becomes of the best quality.
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If we examine history it is clear that it would be a grave error to change any leader save those who clearly do not have their nation and global best interests. It is the anxiety caused by the recession which is fuelling this campaign against Gordon Brown along with politicians who are Blairites as far as I can see - the five who resigned did so as part of a Blairite campaign to get rid of Brown. They do not have this country's interests at heart! The thirties recession and subsequent very real anxieties gave Hitler the chance he needed to gain power. I am horrified to see the BNP gaining votes. Brown is solid, steady, has a massive intellect and is best able to steer us through this recession. It is well documented that change at such a time as this gives the far right the opportunity to gain power and cause absolute mayhem which takes years to recover from. This is a time to support the Labour Party!!!
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What we need to worry about the most is that the BNP now have the opportunity to link up with other far right parties in Europe. They will also gain funding which will enable them to spread their ideas much further than they have up to now. If we do not get rid of Labour with its liberal ideas on immigration we can expect much more troubled waters to come.
To me the concept of Euope as an institution relying on one another is dead. We should trade with each other but that is all. It has done nothing but harm linking our laws and policies to Europe, plus costing us a great deal of money. Pushing us further into Europe by the Lisbon Treaty is again denying the people a vote they should have.
I sincerely hope as well that the Lib/Dem idea of PR is lost forever as in my opinion it is a very bad voting system.
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IF Gordon clings to his preciousssss then the electorate will not forget.
They will not forget the outright lies that Lablour have told and spun into Truth. The Referendum that never was, Iraq. We Will Not Forget!
I guarantee you this, if Gordon, Harriet and Peter carry on regardless they will lead Labour not into a 20 year wilderness but Total and utter OBLIVION.
Whilst I am here if Labour think that trotting out "Chief Trougher" and nepotist Neil Kinnock and his awful Wife will help they are sadly mistaken. They are loathed by the electorate almost as much as Crash, Mandy and Harriet. In fact it is amazing that a cabal of people so widely despised cannot see it.
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72. At 09:00am on 08 Jun 2009, Shandon397 wrote:
"Labour decimated in Wales, embarrassed in Scotland. Is this the end of Labour as a British party? Not that Labour in England looks that pretty either.."
It might, if repeated by the time we have the next General Election, mean the end of something more.
If Labour does really significantly shrink in size and influence in the medium and long term, then the operation of parliament and government could become very different. It's improbable, at the moment, that there would be a hung parliament, as it would seem the Tories would have a significant majority if Labour were out of the picture.
The interesting thing might be the make up of the Opposition and just who might become political bedfellows with whom against the Tories.
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Is it any wonder that the two most prosperous countries in geographycal Europe are Norway & Switzerland, yet neither of them are in the European Union. This does not in any way prevent those two countries from being part of several European Trade Agreements and Switzerland is even a member of the Schengen free travel area whereas Great Britain (a European Union Member) is not!
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Less than 10 hours for Labour to decide between survival and oblivion.
If the PLP chooses to ditch Brown, they'll be defeated, but survive and live to fight another day.
If the PLP chickens out, Labour will be annihilated.
It's up to you, Comrades....
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Good news that the country has given the unelected Gordown brown pants. Labour is trashing this country. They are out of control. Time to get him out. Now.
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Post 58. It is 20% of the total number of MP's not 70 as a finite number.
With Labour having 350, approx, at the moment it currently happens to to be 70 MP's.
If Labour was reduced to a rump of 150 MP's after the next election only 30 would be required.
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Re: 61
The reasons for the pro-Labour swing in Leicester? Look at the immigrant vote.
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The "minority" parties have succeeded because we know what they stand for (or think we do). They have not taken us for granted yet.
The established parties give us lots of what we don't care too much about. They ignore things that are "politically" sensitive to them, as if they know what people want, and will deny, avoid, smear etc. to try to suppress basic view.
We all know what happens when you suppress an economic decline - depression.
We all know what happens when you suppress MP's pay - scandal.
We all know what happens when you suppress public opinion - you work it out.
The "clunk" will not do anything until it slaps him in the face.
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"On current demographic trends, we, the native British people, will be an ethnic minority in our own country within sixty years.
To ensure that this does not happen, and that the British people retain their homeland and identity, we call for an immediate halt to all further immigration, the immediate deportation of criminal and illegal immigrants (...)"
just a tiny bit from BNP policies.
you have to ask yourselves WHY people voted for BNP, and not slagging them off!
Anyone who lives in UK can see clearly that it is time for BNP to act, and give few years, Nick Griffin will become Prime Minister!
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This is a well-balanced viewpoint from over the pond - distance lending ability to see things rather more clearly than us in knee-jerking panic.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/08/opinion/08krugman.html?_r=1&hpw
We have to be really careful we do not allow the fascists to gain a hold. Gordon Brown has the financial situation stabilised. We need his intellect and experience more than any of the idiots who have been elected in. BNP - known racists - elected by the British people!! I despair.
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all these calls for an election have it wrong and are missguided only due to the basic fact that in westminster there is no one close to being able to run this country.
so all that will happen is we end up jumping from one poor inept government to another causing more damage.
better the devil you know at least for now.
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Amazing how all these labour MP's proclaim to know what people want because they have all being out "knocking on doors".
Misleading twaddle.
They may have turned up for the photo, but cleared off ASAP.
Was that paragraph 3 on the handout from Central Office?
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For those of you banging on about leaving the EU I woul make the following points..
Why is is that every business leader in the country wants us to stay in the EU if it is such a terrible idea?
Why is it that even William Hague writing in The Spectator last week only offers a vision of a future Conservative government 'working within the EU to reform its institutions' and no mention of a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty or the nuclear option of pulling out of the EU altogether?
It is because. like it or not, the alternative to being out of the EU is much,much worse economically than being part of it.
Also can anyone explain to me what these legendary 'soveriegn powers' are that we have allegedly given up to Europe? We don't even share the same currency for gods sake, although admittedly that has never stopped us doing whatever the US has commanded us to do..
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If I was caught deraauding the system, I will be hauled to Court a, fines and perhaps jaled. Why are MP's allowed to keo their seats and be given a golden handshake? Not a single journalist has persevered this question.
Further more, voters should well remember that in order to teach an errant Mp party candidate a lesson. vote for another party irrespective who it is...the next time.. or spoil yr vote
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# Eurobernie - u have summed it all up PERFECTLY. Thank u, pity is we will have to wait another year to boot out Labour and the boot licking so called reporters from Browns Bias Corp.
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I cant see why Brown has been seen as one of the best chancellors we have had for someone who sold our gold off at a low rate and raided peoples pensions. Also moved the responsibility of interest rates to the Bank of England. The economy was self-perpetuating with the global links. He was a non-elected Prime Minister and has not achieved anything as such except chaos with him throwing his toys out the pram frequently. Go Now before you destroy our country any more.
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35.
Nice try, saga.
=
89. TeresaUK
"It is well documented that change at such a time as this gives the far right the opportunity to gain power and cause absolute mayhem which takes years to recover from. This is a time to support the Labour Party!!!"
T-UK. Unfortunately the BNP has grown very quickly under Labour and Brown and will continue to get worse unless there is change!!!
=
Lessons in how to lose gracefully from a German SDP spokesperson. Roughly translated:"We were cr*p."
=
The LibDems' luke warm performance was interesting. More down to genuine anti- EU sentiment than expenses? Will they do better in a GE?
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This is surely a day of deep shame for the UK: to elect BNP facists. People stayed away from voting in their droves, this allowing a minority party with extremely nasty views to get elected. Brown - you *must* step down! It has happened on your watch. You, an unelected PM, with an unelected deputy PM and an unelected minister for Europe. Go and go now before you do even more damage. The festering boil you have produced MUST be lanced now or it will only get worse.
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It's a message to Labour that they lost 5 seats and slumped to third.
That is how unpopular Gordon Brown, and by extension the rest of the party, is right now. Their continued failures, greed and corruption have come back to visit them.
But it's also a message to the Tories that they didn't scoop these seats up.
People are beginning to think, "what difference does it make, will they actually be any better?" In the past, we've still had to endure incompetent and corrupt leadership, regardless of what colour flag they were waving. When they win the next election, they need to work hard, and be seen to be working hard, at genuinely working for the improvement of this country and cleaning up the tarnished crown of bad government.
If they can manage that, perhaps we will all be inspired to start working together for this country.
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Mr Brown wants to reclaim democracy.
Why then is he increasing the number of un-elected Ministers / advisors?
Seems odd to say the least.
Does Glenys realise what she is letting herself in for?
She does tick a number of boxes though - woman, welsh, left(ish).
Oh dear, how very clever.
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Ironically I think Brown may have actually done too badly to be forced out. To take on the leadership now would be the ultimate 'hospital pass'. There doesn't seem to be enough time to turn it around before the next general election so any new leader would probably be condemning themselves to going down in history as presiding over one of the worst elections defeats the country has ever seen. Not exactly what you want on your political CV.
We must look to remove the power of the ruling party to decide the date of a general election. Fixed terms please.
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89 TeresaUK
A bizarre post from you if I may say, demonstrating all of the spin, distortion and fantasy world aspects of the government that havehelped get us where we are ?
I am afraid that Gordon Brown's interests extend no further than his survival - he doesn't care about you, me, the Labour Party, the government, the electorate, the country, the EU or the implications of the BNP for that matter. Support him if you wish, but it's not in anyones interests to do so - not even yours.
As for your comment "cause absolute mayhem which takes years to recover from. " I'm afraid we are already here, and have been for some time now, and it was the fault of the government and not extremist parties that got us here.
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"What we need to worry about the most is that the BNP now have the opportunity to ink up with other far right parties in Europe."
Maybe the Conservatives new group? They would fit in quite well to that one by the sound of it.
Anyone who can vote BNP for any reason is pondscum but pondscum deserves to have a say like everyone else.
94 tony_C
Andy_K was on here the other day did you notice?
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TeresaUK 89
It is because of the collapse of the Labour vote that the BNP were allowed to gain 2 seats. Therefore you assertion that Brown should stay to prevent further spread of BNP ideas does not hold water I am afraid.
Brown and Labour are finished and we need an election to give people the opportunity to vote for what they want. We also need a proper mandate for Government which Labour do not have at the moment.
If we keep limping along like this against the will of the people, extreme parties will continue to do well.
It is hard to understand why you would believe that Brown who is the man who led us into massive Government debt with his spend policies and allowed the City to run riot with virtually no regulation, is the man to cure the problem.
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The Labour party is now like the first world war generals, pouring more and more men on to the machine guns in a desperate attempt to survive. Meanwhile the people of this country have become so angry at the state Labour has allowed this country to get into that they are ready to vote for the only party that says what a lot of people have been thinking, the facist BNP. To even discuss immigration is regarded as racism, and condemned out of hand,so when the opportunity comes to be heard, the people use the secret ballot to make their views heard. This is what gives rise to extremism,the condemnation of views that do not suit the PC section of government ; where extremism is out in the open , it cannot exist, but driven underground, it thrives. This government has betrayed, in the name of multiculturalism , everything that this nation once stood for ; freedom and free speech are now a figment of the imagination in a country where children are brainwashed into not thinking on their own behalf or having their own opinions in case they are contrary to the accepted view.
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Before any election Parliament needs to be purged of the bad apples on all sides. I do not think this can happen overnight and would suggest that the political parties need to calm down and take stock over the summer recess.
This would not let Brown off the hook as he is quite capable of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory on the simplest matter.
Mandelson is taking Labour dissidents to the brink and making them stare into the abyss then asking them who wants to jump - clever ploy but will it work?
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One Labour Minister states " I.D cards was in the Labour Manifesto, so they are going ahead with them".
A vote on the EU. Lisbon Treaty is in the manifesto, so why go ahead with one and not the other.
Lets have two Ballots, a General Election and the Lisbon Treaty.
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It always struck me that Gordon Brown never really had a sense of WHY he wanted to be PM, he just knew he wanted the top job for it's own sake.
The most effective and successful leaders are those that have a goal or a vision. For them, positions of authority are tools to accomplish those goals - a means to an end, not an end in themselves.
A job like PM has to be all-consuming in a way most of us cannot imagine. Without a 'vision' to hold on to - I suspect its easy to be overwhelmed by it and go under.
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Englishvineyardman (48);
Brown wouldn't be the first in modern times. You can add him to a distinguished post-WW2 list of Eden, Douglas-Home and Callaghan. All of whom were installed by their parties and de-installed the first time that they faced the electorate.
Eden is in some ways the closest analogy. He coveted the position for years and, having finally achieved it by ousting his predecessor, was then destroyed in months by a crisis, namely Suez. That was of his own doing, as was Brown's when as chancellor he failed to regulate the banks properly and loaded the public debt whilst keeping anything that might look make his figures look dodgy off the balance sheet, Enron-style. Such as PFI costs & public sector pension costs.
WR.
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Allowing Gordon Brown to take over as PM was the best thing Labour could have done to be certain of losing the next General Election - why is it that everyone except the Labour Party could see this?
And why is it, if we live in a so-called democracy that we are unable to force a general election? This unelected sham of a PM and his corrupt, gravy-train riding band of followers must go.
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#8 -StuartC- wrote:
"Carry on conspiring with others to push Ireland into voting twice on exactly the same rejected treaty."
Stuart,
You might be interested to know that anti-Lisbon candidates have, on the whole, done badly in Ireland. The one well-established anti-EU/Lisbon party here (Sinn Fein) has lost its only EU seat. Libertas did very badly in the Dublin Euro region, being eliminated after the first count. Declan Ganley in the North West was only fourth after the first count and is unlikely to win a seat (there are only 3 in his region), as the only party from which he's likely to get significant transfers of votes is Sinn Fein. They don't look to have enough to get him a seat. SF's replacement in Dublin (Joe Higgins - Socialist Party) is, admittedly, anti-EU, but his campaign concentrated far more on being anti-Fianna Fail (the main government party) than anti EU/Lisbon. The government here is as unpopular as Gordon Brown's. Both parties in it (FF and the Greens) got hammered in both the Euro and local elections.
As far as the Lisbon referendum is concerned, if it were re-run now the Yes campaign would win comfortably. The original No vote was never anti-EU. Most No voters said they voted No because they didn't understand the treaty. Plus No campaigners focussed on very narrow issues such as claims that Lisbon would require changes to Ireland's anti-abortion and military neutrality policies. Linking votes for anti-EU parties in the UK with Ireland's Lisbon No vote is innacurate. The EU generally is viewed favourably in Ireland.
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enigmajx (59)
"I hardly think the UK people have spoken about anything given 60% of them didnt turn up to express an opinion. "Just can't be bothered" was the general remark around my place of work. Can we conclude that they are satisfied or disaffected? Either viewpoint is valid given they failed to turn up and have an opinion."
Wrong...The 35% that did vote equates to about 10 million UK subjects - Thats easily a large enough sample to gauge general opinion.
You are also wrong about your lazy, "Just can't be bothered" colleagues and their levels of "satisfaction or disaffection". Far from concluding that EITHER viewpoint is valid, those of us wise enough to actually use the voting tools at our disposal feel that NEITHER viewpoint is valid. Because, my friend, if they don't make their mark, they - and their opinions - simply DON'T EXIST. (Besides we already have our 10 million cross-section so why would we need the dunderhead vote?)
If your colleagues are as ignorant as can be imagined, then I for one am extremely grateful they DIDNT vote!
We can conclude that (Personally I find that type intellectually challenged and generally pretty vacuous anyway)
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#115 Kaybraes.........brilliant.
Well put analogy.
I am British born, but my father is of Burmese extraction and even he, like a lot of hardworking immigrants are fed up with the free-ride and something for nothing immigration open-door policy that Labour have been promoting.
To nut-shell it is to look at what happened to White Zimbabwean farmers not allowed to come to the UK, people who have a lot more in common with the UK than many other groups were refused entry, why? Easy because they are white and the self-loathing liberals see that as a bad thing. Meanwhile certain hook-handed criminals and west-haters are allowed to stay and reap the rewards for nothing.
It makes people angry, why do the left and right blame them for giving vent to their frustration.
I didn't vote BNP, I am not sure I ever would, but I thoroughly understand why other people would. Just shouting "Racist" is the typical way that the left wing try to shut down debate. Every country should be, and most probably are, just a little bit "racist" to protect the interests of it's own people. Or else why not just hand our cash to newcomers.
That's why people voted BNP, they are fed up of being seen as second class citizens to the Politically Correct Left.
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labour's core vote was always the working class, welsh, english and scots. they have felt betrayed for ages. now they've changed from not voting (because there didnt seem to be an alternative), to voting bnp to show their frustration. who were the fools in the labour party who thought they owned them and could ignore their patriotism and push multiculturalism down their throat?
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It sounds to me like I have either been mis-informed or have failed to pick up some obvious signal for personally, I feel that Labour under Gordon Brown has been a competant in attempting to tackle the economic crisis.
Currently, I feel confused about a couple of points.
Firstly, why are people complaining about Gordon Brown not being elected?
It seems all too easy to jump onto a band-wagon and start shouting about the unfairness of British democracy but, "the people" voted for Labour, and so we have Labour for the term. As far as I can tell, those are the rules.
Secondly, from a handful of newspaper articles ( that weren't surrounded by the red-faced angry prattle of the coloumnist ), Labour / Gordon Brown has been leading the global fight against the economic recession, at least that's the impression I gathered. All this comparison to other countries in the world, such as EU members to compare our economic plight seems ridiculous, Britain's economy differs vastly from these other countries due to a large proportion of our economy relying on The City (at least that is what I have been led to believe, it could be that our Onion exports are one of the major fuels of this economy). As far as I was aware, three quarters of all financial activity happened in our wonderful square mile, which has had destruction wrought upon it by the economic crisis (not to mention the attack "the people" led by our Righteous Newspapers) and this, not the inadequetcy of our leadership, has left the prospects of our economy reeling. We are not France, we are not Switzerland, we are not "part of the continent, piece of the main", so why do people insist on these comparisons.
I guess I've just been seriously mis-informed and all this sand my head has been buried in has stopped me from seeing the anarchy that has descended upon the country...
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One very worrying aspect of Gordo's determination to hang on for another 12 months is that this could give him time to try and push through some "constitutional reform" proposals that might attempt to swing the balance in favour of Labour at the next election.
For example I don't imagine that he'd have much difficulty in getting his horde of MP's plus the Lib Dems to vote for a version of PR that increased their chances of hanging onto their seats. Hopefully the much derided (by Labour) House of Lords ought to put a stop to such a plan but you never know.......
Several earlier posts have called GB a fascist. I think I prefer the description trainee dictator - the more I see of him the more I have come to feel that he really does believe that he is the only person qualified to be in charge of the country and anything that he does to increase that probability is really in the country's best interests and in no way unreasonable or unfair. It's not really a right wing or left wing thing - for further details of this attitude of mind see R Mugabe; A Hitler; B Mussolini; Franco; Stalin etc etc
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We live in a democracy.
So the people get to vote for the party that represents them.
If they vote for the BNP or the whatever party that is their right, and they will be represented by these parties.
I think it is undemocratic to go on an on about how terrible it is that people are voting for another party.
If the mainstream parties were satisfying their constituents then they would be voting for them.
I do not support the BNP, but I absolutely support their right to exist and for people to vote for them.
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not to mention the whole political correctness malarky that got out of control and it's absolutely rediculous now!
BNP - Yes
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We now have the news that Crash is forcing Junior Ministers to give a pledge of allegiance before allowing them to keep their jobs.
Plot most definitely lost, Mugabe must be taking notes or at least sharing his own. "My way or the highway" is not a good way of doing government. Anybody who says it is must quite fancy living in a dictatorship,
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The Labour Government has lost control of every council in England, the Labour vote in Wales has sunk. The Labour party is becoming more of a fringe party by the hour. What do we have to do to get an election - riot?
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TeresaUK (89)
Hogwash. Total and utter poppycock. What form of mind control drug have you been taking? Your message reads as though it was copied verbatim from some tatty, local labour party freesheet...!!
"Brown is solid, steady, has a massive intellect and is best able to steer us through this recession"
You've been taken in by Crash Gordons cronies haven't you? Why not try some of your own thinking? I promise you the men with the long red sleeved jacket won't come for you, because TeresaUK, outside of the Labour party thoughtcrime doesn't exist...!!
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dhwilkinson 113
These are mainly disaffected Labour voters therefore I wonder that you call them pondscum as they come from your own ranks.
The fact that you would even try to associate the Conservatives in the same group as the BNP just shows how out of touch and desperate Labour voters who are still loyal have become. All the major parties condemn the BNP.
It is the public who have decided that Labour have no longer got anything to offer no one else. Or would you also like to suppress their voting rights as Brown is doing?
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I don't know what everyone is complaining about. Gordon has survived in his job, and as far as he is concerned that's the only thing that matters. Do you think Gordon gives any thought at all to whether the public or his party want him, or what is in the best interests of the country?
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I bet Labour are hugely surprised and relieved the results aren't much worse than this, and that there weren't a whole lot of other "painful firsts".
The Labour corridors of power must be echoing to the whispers of "I think we got away with that one" and there will be huge sighs of relief all round.
I suspect Labour paradoxically have been encouraged by these results.
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#53. icewombat.
Excellent post, but I would like to point out that I cant remember any school teaching Engineering (Electrical or Mechanical) as a subject.
You might of got Metalwork if you where lucky.
No, it was up to industry to provide training for this, but over the years Apprenticeships numbers have been reduced & Im afraid that you cant blame Brown for this.
Since when has it been the responsibility of our Government to train Engineers, Computer Programmers et al?
Strange, but the very people who complain to the government about the lack of skilled people seem to be the very people who should be doing something about it, but they cant be bothered to part with the money.
I speak from experience here.
Instead they got the Government involved & Blair trumpeted the Modern (read cheaper) Apprenticeships that where basically dumbed down by reducing the duration & removing the academic qualifications that most of us where required to do a few years ago.
If you look at the list of additional apprenticeships (yes I hear you icewonbat) that Brown announced recently, it made for depressing reading.
McDonalds, Phones 4 U & a whole host of retail outlets, hardly a whos who of the highly skilled market is it.
I think I saw Rolls Royce in there somewhere, so maybe all is not lost.
No, this is just a way for Brown to shift a number of youngsters off of the dole for a while to fiddle the unemployment figures in the same way that they have abused the further education system to the same effect for decades now.
This is all part of the process of dumbing down Britain & doing things on the cheap while countries like India & China are going the other way & gearing up for long term success of their economies.
A recent business trip to S.Korea made me realise how far we have allowed ourselves to slip
Id like to say that this situation is good for middle aged people like myself, but the recession is now producing a high number of unemployed skilled professionals around the world, so even the globe trotters are beginning to feel the pinch.
I have to disagree with you on one point though, that being the reason why IT jobs are going abroad.
The UK is still producing a high number of IT Graduates, but since this profession can be farmed out overseas so easily, we are up against countries like India that can do the job far cheaper.
Sorry, but im afraid we will have to add Training of our future workforce to the list of things Brown just does not get.
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#53. icewombat.
Excellent post, but I would like to point out that I cant remember any school teaching Engineering (Electrical or Mechanical) as a subject.
You might of got Metalwork if you where lucky.
No, it was up to industry to provide training for this, but over the years Apprenticeships numbers have been reduced & Im afraid that you cant blame Brown for this.
Since when has it been the responsibility of our Government to train Engineers, Computer Programmers et al?
Strange, but the very people who complain to the Government about the lack of skilled people seem to be the very people who should be doing something about it, but they cant be bothered to part with the money.
I speak from experience here.
Instead they got the Government involved & Blair trumpeted the Modern (read cheaper) Apprenticeships that where basically dumbed down by reducing the duration & removing the academic qualifications that most of us where required to do a few years ago.
If you look at the list of additional apprenticeships (yes I hear you icewonbat) that Brown announced recently, it made for depressing reading.
McDonalds, Phones 4 U & a whole host of retail outlets, hardly a whos who of the highly skilled market is it.
I think I saw Rolls Royce in there somewhere, so maybe all is not lost.
No, this is just a way for Brown to shift a number of youngsters off of the dole for a while to fiddle the unemployment figures in the same way that they have abused the further education system to the same effect for decades now.
This is all part of the process of dumbing down Britain & doing things on the cheap while countries like India & China are going the other way & gearing up for long term success of their economies.
A recent business trip to S.Korea made me realise how far we have allowed ourselves to slip
Id like to say that this situation is good for middle aged people like myself, but the recession is now producing a high number of unemployed skilled professionals around the world, so even the globe trotters are beginning to feel the pinch.
I have to disagree with you on one point though, that being the reason why IT jobs are going abroad.
The UK is still producing a high number of IT Graduates, but since this profession can be farmed out overseas so easily, we are up against countries like India that can do the job far cheaper.
Sorry, but im afraid we will have to add Training of our future workforce to the list of things Brown just does not get.
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This country and Gordon Brown are the pits.
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If the Government also ignore this shot, not across their bows, but right in the heart, by the British electorate and does not call a General Election at the earliest opportunity is it now time for some kind of campaign of civil disobedience to try to get the point across?
We are allegedly living in a democracy here yet I feel completely disenfranchised. The Government seems to be determined to cling on until the last possible moment for no particular reason other than the self interest of the scores of Labour MPs who will end up out of work when they get voted out.
Once again our political class is acting out of complete self interest and not out of conscience or the interest of the UK as a whole. We need to flush the system and get a clean start the only way to do it is a General Election.
Then we need to change the way the system works, reduce the powers of the party whips, and get some people representing us in Parliament who can and will follow their consciences and not robotically follow the party line every time.
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Maybe Nick Clegg was right, Labour is dead.
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Gordon Brown should not go, even though he has been a very poor leader. He did not accept popularity when he had it, he refuses to take political advantage when it is there to be had (eg. expenses)and somehow seems reluctant to re-inforce what Labour stands for and to make sure that the electorate knows what the party is about. He should not go, because there are signs that the economy is beginning to turn around (house prices going up, confidence in some sectors of industry is returning, banks are beginning to lend more and repay the debt that they owe us taxpayers). To quit now would be foolhardy and would play into conservative hands.
Those Labour MPs that are calling for a change in leadership should consider that the public will not accept two non-elected Prime Ministers therefore there would be an election very soon and their popularity would be even lower than it is now, so they would be effectively out of a job. Whereas if they support Gordon Brown there is a chance that the economy will turnaround and he may start to show signs of being a leader that isn't afraid to fight hard.
David Cameron has not set out any agenda for the Conservatives and yet he would be elected if an election were called today. He can see that there are some small improvements in the economy and knows that this is his chance of becoming Prime Minister without having to be clear on any of this policies, but if Gordon stays and the economy does improve then he will have tell the electorate quite clearly what his policies are and how they compare to Labour.
The vote in the EU elections was a backlash against all major parties, not just the Labour party, but because Gordon has not sought political advantage from this debate, he has become the figurehead for the expenses scandal. So none of the major parties should take too much please from this result. The conservatives need to keep an eye on UKIP which could steal some of their vote in the next election and with an improving economy a June 2010 election would be a far harder battle to fight and one which they could still fail to win.
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37. At 07:51am on 08 Jun 2009, sicilian29 wrote:
The Government will be paralysed in terms of the policies they can bring forward and it is the country that will suffer.
How can this be worse? If they are neutered and can't interfere there may actually be hope. The biggest problems we have faced in the last 30 years have all come as a result of government policies. I'm not entirely sure DC will be any better at the moment unless of course, you view the lack of policies as an improvement. He won't push very hard for an election until he can get his own party in order and come up with some ideas
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Re #39. Dear forever-blue737, of course no cabinet ministers are going to turn on Gordon Brown. They have grace and favour third homes, claim expenses on second homes and get raised pay exceeding £100K. If they turned on him now, they might lose their seats in an election, and with the housing market in its present state, they may make no profit on the sale of their second homes, to avoid paying Corporate Gains Tax on.
We have had 12 years of rule by Cabinet, with the House of Commons being largely bypassed. With 350 MPs , Gordon has had to create 9 new peers to take seats in his cabinet. This filling the cabinet with unelected cronies bypasses Labour Party selection committees and the electorate. This is Gordons way of cleaning up democracy, by simply removing all vestiges of the democratic process and behaving like a tinpot dictator.
The Cabinet then speak of change and listening to the public, in tones that attempt to disguise their vested interests parading as moral rectitude. For the last 8 years, they have been saying "we must listen to the public" and then disregarding them. They've lost Scotland to the SNP, Wales to the Tories and have just 15% of the public support, even behing UKIP in England.
No mandate, no democracy, no direction - just greed and self interest.
Gordon, you're fired.
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The booing at Gordon Brown from the crowd at the D-Day commemoration said it all. We are normally dignified at such events, but it is clear that GB is now so despised because of his arrogance that we are prepared to show ourselves up in front of the world and the French. The election of BNPs is the direct result of this utterly rotten government.
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Nick,
Please ask GoGoGordon why he thinks he is best placed to clean up politics when a top government cabinet minister is a man who has previously been forced to resign?
Please ask GoGoGordon if he is so confident that he still has the backing of "the people" then why doesn't he put it to the test and call a general election"?
If the back-bench Labour MPs have any bottle then they would resign their seats and force a general election. They would get more respect from "the people" by showing some guts and it could work in their favour to get them re-elected.
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The expenses scandal clearly had a very serious impact, particularly in the Labour heartlands in Wales, Scotland and England.
Although few these days in any of these places know the words of The Red Flag, in their hearts most still despise "the base whose minds are fixed on pelf and place" referred to in that anthem. They have therefore "kicked" their Party for having any persons whatever of this ilk within the ranks of its M.P.s and for seemingly allowing obscene rewards to be taken by failed bankers.
To the extent that Labour tackles these fundamental issues and its economic policies are seen to be working so its electoral chances will rebound.
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This is a sad day for British politics - But I believe there are quick solutions that the main parties need to act upon - Have a free vote to ban any electoral party from sitting in parliament which has memebership based on creed or colour or more importantly a basis of racism. Expose the parties for what they really support buy actively demonstarting clear manefesto policies - Transparency is the key. I certainly do not want a swing to far right in this country - diversity is the way forward.
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Oh and the conservatives will come sweeping in on their white horse and save the day? Get Real
* Inflation and interest rates are better now than at anytime under Thatcher and Major
* People are in affordable housing and living conditions are far superior
* Unemployment, despite a higher population, is far lower than at any time under Cons
* Hospitals, education, culture is far stronger
* Britain is a far happier united country
The Cons would destroy all that and do everything they could to line their's and the rich's own pockets! The reason we have an underclass and crime is because of the ruthless and disinterested manner in which the Cons treated lower-income families in the 80s and 90s.
Also, Osborne is so far out of his depth it's frightening. Don't forget, as well, that the pro-European Ken Clarke pulls all of his strings anyway
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One wonders at their intelligence at times. When the expenses row broke out the common chorus was "I didn't break the rules". Taking advantage of the rules for financial gain seems to be acceptable. Sadly it does not seem to compute that their financial gain was at the expense of the people who were generous enough to vote for them. Such a lack of loyalty to the electorate (and it seems each other) is being repaid.
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All we need now is a few disenchanted Labour MP's to walk and join the Lib Dems and we could see the collapse of the party. Those weak and self interested members of the cabinet who know Brown is unfit for the job and refuse to do what is necessary for the party and the country will bear a heavy responibility for their failure to act soon.If I read one more,carefully scripted,statement of support from an MP more interested in insulting public intelligence I shall understand why the public have turned to BNP and UKIP.
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i fully expect that tonight GB will come out with the usual....."we will learn by this....we hear what the public are saying.........we must clean up politics......the public would not forgive us if we walked away" ..and all the other mandelson crafted phrases.
Well the whole world now knows he has no mandate, no legitimacy, the public has spoken... read my lips Gordon "the public have said enough is enough...now go and take your cronies with you"....
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Simple question:
Place the following in order of importance:
(a) the will of Gordon Brown
(b) the will of the people of the UK
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And yet another irony:
In a week that sees UKIP as the protest vote against corruption, we will now endure endless media coverage of an election they could hardly be bothered to mention until yesterday!
In a world of 24 hour news coverage, when will we actually accept that the Media has a massive part to play in the delivery of democracy?
The BNP being elected is terrible - but the media has some cheek in apportioning anything even approaching blame!
Having stoked public anger about expenses for weeks, whilst ignoring the issues at hand, it now has the temerity to cast political parties as failing to deliver their messages. Answer me this:
How were these messages supposed to be delivered whilst the circus was away with the fairies and expenses receipts?
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134 susan croft
The BNP supporters don't come from my ranks or Labours. In a way its kind of a good thing to bring these people out into the open. Do you deny that some of the parties that the Conservatives are grouping with have quite similar views to the BNP?
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I am personally a big Labour supporter, but last Thursday saw me not voting for them! Instead I voted for another party - the reason? The Labour Party does not have a leader! How can you in good conscious vote for a party that has no leader? Indeed, our beloved Country is in dire straits - we need a hero!
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#151, "Have a free vote to ban any electoral party from sitting in parliament which has memebership based on creed or colour or more importantly a basis of racism...."
With these rules you might have to ban all of the Northern Ireland Parties as their whole setup is geared to stopping the other side from getting in, each election is usually a tribal headcount. Maybe a lesson to learn for future UK elections with the rise of the some of these parties.
No matter how unpleasant some of these people are we the best way to deal with them is to beat them on their own terms by countering their arguments. Shouting foul and running away does not work. Because we have a government that is not working and does not have the support of the UK people then I am not surprised people are seeking answers elsewhere.
The game is up for GB and friends, time to go quickly so someone else can fix the mess this country is in, we cannot afford another 6+months of this chaos.
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A man can't stay where nothing goes right
and everything seems to go wrong
open the gates africa we want to go
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I seriously doubt that yet another unelected leader would bow to public presure and go to the ballot. After all, Brown has not.
However, the more serious question is: When will our leader bow to public pressure, set aside his overwhelming arrogance, and do the honourable thing, as Michael Martin has? It MUST be obvious by now that the people of this country have just voted for change. To say that he is the only man for the job beggars belief. Why do we bother with opposition parties if this is true? Or is this just a part of the Brown Plan to systematically eliminate choice in this country?
While we ponder this thought, when are we, the public, going to be heard? I for one do not condone spying in any form. I am a private citizen and value my privacy. Not because I spend all my time formenting plans of mass destruction but simply because I like my private affairs to be just that - private. I do not trust this government with any of my private details. After all, they have clearly demonstrated that they cannot even fill in an expenses claim without error or indeed carry private data around without leaving it somewhere. So why trust anyones details to a centralised database where hackers could use such data in any way they see fit? There are jobs that computers and their associated databases are NOT suited to. This is one of them.
And why do our politicians think they have the moral right to spy upon people when at the same time they fought so hard for their expenses to remain private? Why do politicians feel they remain above the law?
The Lisbon Treaty is clearly going to cost us more than just taxpayers money.....so why is this government so determined to ram it down our throats?
There are many other examples of the abuses to which our government is all too willing to subject us but at the heart of it there is a common theme - POWER.
It is clear to me that this government has gotten a taste for it and wants ever more. Gordons refusal to do the right thing underlines the point. The man has become a dictator and like all dictators he needs to be removed. NOW.
And be replaced by a properly thought out constitution. A political party that has the bottle to put one in place will get my vote. But can one of them rise to the challenge and relinquish some of the power back to the people?
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This is disgusting. That the BNP could get any representation is a failure. To have them in because people failed to vote in Stockport and elsewhere is something we should be ashamed of.
That in second place was UKIP is just something I cannot get my head around. No party has anything to be pleased about.
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In Post 40 Forever_blue757 stated that Lord Mandelson reduced Andrew Marr to a gibbering wreck.
What programme was he watching. andrew Marr retained his dignity despite having to deal with the 'Prince of Darkness' at his most evil spinning worst. Mandelson was shown up as a bully - and it is no wonder that Labour Cabinet ministers refuse to do the decent thing and get rid of Brown.
Twice forced to resign, made financially secure for life after a stint on the European gravy train - a reward from a grateful Tony Blair, and yet Mandelson still seeks to further his ambitions, through the man who he despises.
Surely the time will come - and I hope it is tonight - when people (Backbench MPs) will realise that it is not the Country that Mandelson seeks to assist, but his determination to cling to power whatever the cost is to the Country, and will tell Gordon Brown that it is time to go.
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#79 I think your question is a good one - "What is Labour for?" I remember a great article by Matthew Parris in the Times last year entitled "Gordon Brown the terrible vacuum". It summed up the problem. Brown is nothing more than a political animal, he doesn't have a strategic bone in his body, nor does he recognise that his complete lack of emotional intelligence scares off voters. We spent years thinking he was just hard to read; now we know there was nothing to read after all.
So any thoughts on what Labour is actually for, other than its own survival? Successful Governments should try and be re-elected on a mixture of fear and hope. Fear of what happens if they don't get in (we now have the BNP to help there) and hope for something new and different and exciting when they do. What could Labour, with or without Brown, do in terms of offering something new and different, and please don't start talking about "providing support for hard working families", the phrases are becoming as vacuous as the party that repeats them.
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All politicians crave a legacy. Brown's will be the beaming face of Nick Griffen as he celebrates the biggest fascist vote in britain after the defeat of the nazis. The trouble is that it is easy to see why this happened (the expenses scandal has nothing to do with it) and totally the fault of Blair and Brown. I would put forward three reasons:
a. uncontrolled immigration coupled with the lies that we were told about numbers - I think we were told that 50,000 people from eastern europe would come over not approaching 1 million;
b. a muliticultural society that was anything but - encouraging us to celebrate Diwali etc but to be ashamed of flying the cross of st george. This also led to allowing the Abu Hamza's of the world a free rein in London in case they cried about prejudice or "institutional racism"; and finally
c. the collapse of Brown's house of cards economy. If he was the "best chancellor we have ever had" why did he get it so spectacularly wrong when he said that boom and bust had been abolished. A boom based on debt is a balloon waiting to burst.
When all those factors came together it was inevitable you would have had this vote. The trouble is they could all have been prevented or alleviated had labour and Brown been prepared to listen rather than to preach. The fact that, in the face of conclusive evidence to the contrary, he still thinks he is the best man for job makes me want to weep. I hope someone today takes a photo of Nick Griffen into the meeting of the PLP and asks Brown if he considers he has any responsibility for that. I know what the answer will be.
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#155, "i fully expect that tonight GB will come out with the usual...."
plus usual Labour bingo phrases, "...hard-working families..", "we understand you concerns and are working..", "best man to lead the country..", blah,blah,blah....plus latest from Harmon "..I think there is nobody better placed in terms of taking the economy forward than Gordon Brown...", so in the words of a well known cast of Dad Army " we all doomed!".
At least Tony had some PR polish to make these soundbites sound true.
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Well, if this does not make it clear that Labour are not wanted, it makes you wonder what it would take?
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#152, johncarrelson: You are a complete mouth-breather. Are you seriously blaming the rise of the underclass and crime levels on the Tories?
Your beloved Labour Party has been in power for 12 YEARS. How long would it be before you stopped blaming the Conservatives? 20 years? 50?
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#143 Flashman
"Maybe Nick Clegg was right, Labour is dead."
Not dead just punch drunk - in the grand scheme of things they will re-brand find another Tony [ oh joy!??] and return when the Tories are tired and have run out of ideas in 10 years time.
Then they can run the economy back into the ground again with their worthy but uncosted ideas
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I was filled with a deep sense of shame this morning that the area where I grew up, and which has always seemed to me to be a region of tolerance and fair dealing, has seen fit to send a politician of Nick Griffin's persuasion to Brussels as their representative on the 65th anniversary of D-Day.
Thanks Nick, for making me feel that perhaps that is not the conclusion I should draw.
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Nick, its the end for Labour for sometime and i am personally delighted i am blue to my bones and have suffered in the NHS for this. I have hung on even though outnumbered by Labour patrons in all aspects of my working life. From targets to tantrums, I have survived. Trouble is how does Conservatives get back the even keel that existed before Labour in NHS and get rid of the b....s..t.There has been no balance and i have waited a long time to see them all brushed away as have others in other public service sectors. Yes Gordon or Tony we are still there.....watching and listening....taking it all in.Even through your red only campaigns. Champagne all round when they go...for good and we get back to having a normal life without interference in all aspects of our lives from government, back to the good old days, and Nick you dont keep having to pretend you love them!As for the 3,000 laws lets scrap them and start again, Tories rule!
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So I guess we are back in the area of another "Re-launch" for the Brown/Labour government. We've had few so far that have done precisely nothing, so I look on with some disbelief. Perhaps I'll be proved wrong.
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1. At 03:06am on 08 Jun 2009, karolina001 wrote:
if he is more stubborn, voters will be even more.
from 3rd place they will finish 5th or 0.
we need elections now, so we can clean up the place, not Brown with his MPs.
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I put it to you that all those MP's that want Gordon Brown to go only want that so they can get back on the gravy train as there fear is that he will bring in such a tight set of rules for MP's that there is NO leeway for them to take the tax payer for a ride
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To those of you stating how normal it is to vote for UKIP and SNP in Euro Elections and local council elections which mean nothing. Are you serious? To compare UKIP and SNP is ridiculous. The SNP are currently a minority administration in Scotland. Why was it a protest vote? Did they increase their vote because they were doing such a bad job? If this is repeated at a General Election, the SNP will have a mandate to ask for Independence leading to the break up of the UK. To class the SNP as an insignificant minor party when they are rapidly eating into traditional Labour support(despite being in power) shows a complete lack of understanding.
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4. At 03:27am on 08 Jun 2009, jaytomson wrote:
The arogance of both Gordon Brown and the Labour party is astounding. When will they realise that it is us, the British public who want an election so we can democraticly elect our prime minister.
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We have never elect prime minister we only elect a party and it is up to the party to decide who is ther leader or PM
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143 harry paget flashman
Maybe Nick Clegg was right, Labour is dead.
If he is it will be a first for him, he's never been right about anything yet, how the Libdems choose him over Huhn or Vince Cable is a mystery to me but there you are thats their problem.
Yes it was a bad night for the labour party very bad but not as bad as we are being led to believe, it would have been a miracle in the present circumstances if it had been good.
It has been shake up time for all parties in the circumstances the conservative should have done better but they havn't, the voters didn't leave Labour to go to the Tories they whent to fringe parties, and I think that it was a warning to the labour party to get their act together and they must do that, they must get the expenses sorted out and quick and the double jobs which the Tories fear get that cleared up and gain some respect. they must drop the post office plans,ID cards must be put on the back burner, its not affordable at this time, these two things will help in the meanwhile lets get back to fighting the recession as we have done since it started, things are starting to show signs of recovery so lets keep up that good work.
Finally lets get of Gordons back, ignore the Tories they have nothing to offer if they do get in at the next GE it wont be for what they've. done but for doing nothing and that sort of party is the last thing we need right now.
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Worst share of the vote since the Euro elections in 1918?
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I am sick and tired of Nick 'tory boy' robinson and his biased reporting. Indeed, i have scrolled through the comments and they all seem to be anti-Gordon, anti-labour. Remember, that only 1 in 4 of labour party supporters want Gordon to go - so the blog comments which universally state that 'Gordon should go' falsify the true feeling of the british people and are unrepresentative. It has been clear since he moved to the BBC with his attention grabbing specs, that Nick intends to be a journalist who's goal of celebrity style self-imporance will be reached by sticking a knife into the Government by raking-up drama - most likely Nick fantasy historical character is one of the Watergate journalists. the problem is, Nick doesn't break stories, he just rakes up non-existent ones and gives all journos a bad name.
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A general election is the only thing that can restore some legitimacy to the British political system.
Although a change of prime minister without a democratic mandate is within the rules of the game, within an increasingly presidentialised system there is a fundamental difference between legal form and substance.
Gordon Brown can no longer pretend he has a democratic mandate based on the rules of parliamentary democracy predicated on the arguement that it is 'within the rules' - now where have I heard that before?
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180. At 1:13pm on 08 Jun 2009, i_amjoeblow99 wrote:
I am sick and tired of Nick 'tory boy' robinson and his biased reporting.
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You are not for real are you? You are, oh my gosh.
Your lot are so deluded you don't even see who your own team mates are. Maybe it's the Man. Utd. Grey shirts that are to blame. You are surrounded by people who loathe your lot so you can't spot who are your apologists.
If Nick gave Mandy and Crash any more of an easy ride he really would have to wear a chauffer's cap.
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Labour are so far out of touch with those who employ them - us - and prove this by still saying that the MPs' expenses scandal is at the root of their problems. It's not - it's incompetent government that's done it! They just don't get it, and have nothing but contempt for the electorate - just observe Peter Mandelson to see the truth of this.
They have lied (referendum, dodgy dossier) and cheated (Ghurkas, expenses) their way to a result they thoroughly deserve.
They work for US - WE are their employers and we should neither forget it nor allow them to do so. Roll on the General Election, and don't believe a word they say between now and then - all they want is power. Over us.
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Of course it's easy to talk of 'shame' in relation to the droves who turned to the BNP and other softer groups. How nice to feel you are against fascism. The real shame is the 15 to 20% of people whose economic and social world was destroyed in the 80's and by globalisation and left to despair and idleness and deserted by their natural party. A BNP is a vote of desperation. A cri de coeur. If you don't understand that you will be steam rollered. Its happened before. Don't forget their grandfathers fought fascism and they would do so too. Address their issues and the problem will go away. Don't saddle them with the insult that the new arrivals 'enrich' this country. What message are you sending. A decent government would address these issues and 'tell it like it is'. PS I hate fascism and the fools who let it happen through stupidity.
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Caerdobi - Use your head and do the simple maths!!
The "underclass" (the media's chosen word, not mine) of today that is so blighting British life were all born between 1980 and 1995. If you actually look at the children born under the Blair/Brown years then you will see a far more progressive, united, and happier group of children. You only have to look in our school's now and you will see how more progressive, understanding and tolerant children are to the ones born in my generation of the 80s.
If you look at the cases of Baby P and others, you will all see they are down to the degradation of British inner-cities and society generally caused during Thatcher's years
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"The first time - since 1918 - that the party has come behind the Tories in Wales."
Wrong, wrong, wrong again!
The Conservatives have NEVER topped the poll in Wales. The party which put Labour in Seconf place in 1918 were the liberals (Lloyd George was a liberal Pm not a Tory PM). They seem to ahve got it right on the BBC Wales site - why is it wrong on your blog?
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"185. At 1:42pm on 08 Jun 2009, johncarrelson wrote:
Caerdobi - Use your head and do the simple maths!!
The "underclass" (the media's chosen word, not mine) of today that is so blighting British life were all born between 1980 and 1995. If you actually look at the children born under the Blair/Brown years then you will see a far more progressive, united, and happier group of children. You only have to look in our school's now and you will see how more progressive, understanding and tolerant children are to the ones born in my generation of the 80s.
If you look at the cases of Baby P and others, you will all see they are down to the degradation of British inner-cities and society generally caused during Thatcher's years"
I couldn't agree more - it is shockingly simple really.
And yet despite the fact that we are today hearing that taxpayers will GET MONEY BACK from the banks they have supported, and that Britain is pulling out of an economic tailspin, we will be doomed to several media cycles about elections fought last week about expenses - which don't even have anything to do with Europe or the recession!
(And all this is before we have actually been fully ostricised from Europe, the humiliation of which will not take place until July the 14th.)
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We have the oldest continuous Parliament in the world, very low unemployment, an annual growth rate exceeding 2%, relatively low crime and social problems. And no political parties - just independents. We are not in the EU. Go figure.
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I was up until the south east result yesterday. I was so tired I could have sworn that I saw Stewie Griffin ranting about Gordon Brown after being re elected to Europe turns out it was Dennis Hannon MEP. an easy mistake to make. Perhaps that's why he got that High Youtube count. Stewie griffin rants about Gordon brown is more likely reason on Youtube than anyone being inspired with his oratory skills.
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If Brown dosn't go by tomorrow midday (give him a chance to sleep on the output from tonight's meeting of the PLP)then we are stuck with him until the devil gets frostbite!!
Brown is a sorry Micawber-like figure, waiting for something to turn up, whilst feathering his nest as best he can beofre he gets thrown out by the British Public.
Com on PLP - dump Brown now and let's get on with the getting someone who is capable of being a PM.
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It is no longer a matter for the Labour Party to decide, this Parliament has lost the respect and confidence of the voters. It is time the Politicians actually listened, the Public want a General Election now. Not at the convenience and whim of Gordon Brown.
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jaythomson is wrong. we do not elect our prime minister and never have.
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#180 "Remember, that only 1 in 4 of labour party supporters want Gordon to go"
So that is three quarters of 15.7% of the electorate in the results from yesterday that want Gordon Brown, an unelected Prime Minister with no mandate from the people, to stay in place? I make that around 88% against.
Democracy in action!
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What did they expect?
There was Labour on the night EU Election were announced with no valid European minister in place... Glenys Kinnock is still a serving MEP! She says she won't resign as an MEP until 13th July, so by what constitutional right has she assumed the powers of a Crown Minister in the meantime?
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All I can say is that Brown deserved more than he got last night. I was a Blair fan and his brand of labour was palatable for the masses, but he still had trouble from the old guard left wing, in the party and had to moderate his policies accordingley. Brown was the man the left could stomach, so was given the exchequer to appease the left wing.
To be fair Brown was lauded for having a safe pair of hands and was renowned for being the best post-war chancellor. BUT he was tweaking the banking system in the background and getting rid of regulation, which in the end came back to bite us all. For 10-years he watched the financial sector begin to crumble, and none of us knew what was happening.
He then forced Blair out in a coup of sorts so he could fulfill his destiny and look what's happened. he's presided over the biggest financial crash in almost a century (No more boom and bust???) he's presided over the biggest whitehall scandal in living memory, he's destroyed the credibilty of the political classes, and also destroyed the labour movement. Fulfill his destiny my backside, he's turned out to the worst leader this country NEVER elected and should resign if he had any honour left.
Unfortunate though it may be, he won't resign and the toothless cabinet around him know it's in their own best intrests to watch the country flounder for another year. Selfless service? I think not. I don't even feel sorry for him or pity him. Blair may have been many things, but he was the scourge of the tories and had a handle on everything, he must be in tears watching his party implode right now and having his old side-kick mandy in the heart of Downing Street, must be a laugh.
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And now the eminently sensible Frank Field has come out and said that The Labour Party cannot move forward with Gordon Brown in charge. The writing is truly on the wall whichever way you look at it.
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Anybody remember what we used to blog about before expensegate and brownindeeptroublegate? I dont.
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We would do our selves a great disservice if we force a General election as we would give those MP's elected a mandate to do what they want
My fear is that we then get all the promise and we get nothing as they then change the law to hide there pay and expenses from us for good
Gordon Brown is the best bet of getting this all sorted out as he as nothing to lose as he could be out of the next parliament
Any MP who as a chance of been re elected will want to make the pay and expenses system so lose that they can get the most out of the tax payer
Allot of those Labour ministers who tried to topple Gordon Brown have been fingered in expenses claims
David Cameron is not clean on the expenses claims either also if David Cameron gets to No 10 we all are in for a hard time as the Conservatives want to scrap the minimum wage that will open the flood gates for employers to force wages down and force allot of small business out of business
So we are playing with fire
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johncarrelson, I don't need to do any maths. Your party has been in power for twelve years and has had plenty of time - well over a decade - to address the problems that you present. Your message is a contradiction in terms - you state facts about Labour's success and the happy, unified Britain we live in (and some of your facts are twisted or just plain wrong), yet you whinge about inheriting a legacy of social underclass and high crime from the Conservatives.
Face it, Labour is dead in the water. It has enlarged the public sector by a shocking amount, screwed this country over financially for years to come, indulged in some of the most corrupt politics in recent times (wasn't Tony Blair elected on the back of an anti-sleaze manifesto?), taken this country into an illegal war, sold our gold reserves at a stupidly low price, and your leader acts like an ostrich and refuses to acknowledge that the majority of the electorate want him gone.
I voted for Labour in 1997. I wanted a change to the system and was tired of many years of ineffective Tory rule. What I received was a bent, self-serving party who would not admit to making mistakes apart from when they were made glaringly obvious by the media (10p tax amongst others).
Labour said "Things can only get better". How utterly, utterly wrong they were. You can spin it all you want, but the poll results show quite coldly that I am in the majority in this country.
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We the British electorate are astonishing!
Just exactly what is it that Gordon Brown is supposed to have done that is so awful?
1. Tony Blair presided over the most heinous crime - starting a war in Iraq and lying about its justification.
Gordon Brown has done nothing so terrible.
2. Brown didn't cause the banker to wreck the economy - that was the greed of the rich (oh, and by the way, we are talking about Mr Cameron's and Mr Osborn's friends here or have you forgotten?).
3. Last year, Brown was criticised by the Tories for OVER REGULATING the banks! - Great call there, Mr Cameron. Spot on, eh?
4. Brown has led the world in dealing with this banking mess. The Tory policy is to let it run its course, and we all know what happened last time the Tories followed that path - South Wales, the North, Midlands, industry, and the rest of us who ain't rich.
5. Parliament, not the Government, allowed the abuse of expenses (yes, the Tories too) As for UKIP - jailed!
6. Brown didn't flip his second home, claim for unjustifiable gardening expenses and get the tax payer to pay for a massively huge mortgage on his country home. But David Cameron did.
7. Labour has created the biggest national debit in history. True, but that is largely by bailing out the banks and saving the economy and OUR jobs.
8. Labour's debits will take generations to pay off. Hmm, the Sheik that bailed out Barclays Bank just sold his preference shares and made 1.5 Billion quid in profit. Just wait til we do the same with our national shares in Lloydes, HBOS, etc. Then who's laughing?
9. Brown lacks vision. Really? - Apart from saving the country from the bankers' economic ruin, and saving as many jobs as possible. Whereas the Tories lack any policies at all other than calling for an election. Hmm.Just WHAT DO THEY STAND FOR?
10. Brown doesn't come across well. Okay, true.So you'd rather have a slick talking, shiny and vacuous Etonian so long as he looks good on telly. Great, we'll get the politicians we deserve then.
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Im sure others have mentioned this, but I would like to remind everyone here that in a Parliamentary system, you don't vote for your Prime Minister, you vote for a party. Brown not having a mandate is rubbish - Labour were given the mandate at the last election, and chose their leader when Blair stepped down, through democratic (albeit party) means.
Further having a general election now is pointless - Westminster will still face the same expenses nonsense after the election, unless it is sorted out before the election.
One last thing - there is no need to "kick Brown from office" if he diesnt call an election before June, Parliament will automatically be dissolved according to the rules of that non existent constitution Britian has.
Reading these blogs makes me more convinced citizenship needs to be taught in schools.
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Oh dear another fine mess, is this PM dumb or what he just don't get it, the people don't want him nor does some of the party members - he's suppose to be a good listener remember.
Choppy waters ahoy. How on Earth is he gonna turn this round in so short time, he's left it far too late and the waters will get rather choppy if there should be any crucial votes
And they are scraping the barrel for talent, another reason for not voting for them is the amount of unelected members, if only he had an election when he took office things would have been different.
This PM is arrogant and non democratic until the kick ALL the non elected members out they will never get my vote.... but I'm only a pebble on the beach! This guy is useless without the likes of Mandelson.
For the Sake of God go now Gordon you just haven't a clue!
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Brown - Why bother having a general election ever. You just carry on mate, ignore the public, what do they know. Oh by the way Black is White, you were right about that as well. Oh and your "mission", did you see a shining light from the heaven?
Mandleson has reaked so much havoc since he came back, but the labour ministers are too blind to see it.
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#198 York 1900 wittered: Conservatives want to scrap the minimum wage that will open the flood gates for employers to force wages down and force allot of small business out of business
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Er, how will that work exactly?
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I'll say at the start that I have never voted for the Parliamentary Labour party. BUT I'd like to deal with a few of the troubling things being written on this board:
1 - You may wish to blame Gordon Brown for the election of the BNP but that is just plain silly - the voters who went into the polling stations and cast the ballots were not given two choices (we were all given at least 10 choices - all bar one of them came without racist overtones).
2 - What exactly could Brown have done to maintain your support in the face of the biggest recession in 20 years? If you can offer me a single logical and scholarly reason why David Cameron's economic policies would have averted this recession then I'll begin to be convinced that what the nation needs in a time of crisis is the hoopla, name-calling, and gutter-press journalism of a general election!
3 - Does anyone really believe that they are going to "cleanse" Parliament by unseating Labour MPs to replace them with Tories, Lib Dems, and possibly even fascists? The expenses scandal was a totally non-partisan affair, and that should tell you something very clear about the use of "cleansing" by voting in the opposition.
4 - I've lived and interacted with the US political system for a number of years, and I'm struck by the fact that the received wisdom in Europe has always been that US elections are less ideological than European ones. Having lived through the US '08 campaign, I can tell you that there was considerably more ideological difference in that battle than there is in Britain. The level of personal, pointless attacks on Gordon Brown, the lack of any real understanding about what the Tories would do any differently, and the constant waving of the bloody-flag of Telegraph expense revelations all adds up to "yah-boo" politics at its worst.
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I'm confused by some of the analysis.
The Conservatives share of the vote was much lower than in 1999 (35.7% under William Hague - remember that, two general elections and three leaders ago) and their position is little changed from 2004 (fewer votes, slightly larger share) when the BBC (Nick Assinder) reported that "Michael Howard will be deeply disappointed by his failure to make anything approaching a breakthrough in the European elections." After campaigning with a single policy - vote for us to get rid of the Labour government - I don't see how this year's performance is anything like the stellar success that the BBC and others are spinning it to be.
Labour are obviously this year's big losers (to say the least), but the real electoral winners over ten years have been UKIP, the Greens, and the BNP, all of whom have seen big increases in votes and share.
Perhaps this does show a disillusionment with the three main political parties who have become indistinguishable apart from the spin and charisma of their leaders. Perhaps at the next general election the focus will be issues and policies, not personalities. Perhaps. But I doubt it.
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P.S. Sorry about cross-posting this - I realised it was more sensible in this thread than the BNP one.
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@StuartC (No.8)
I hope you have checked your bold statement with the Greens. I don't think they share a lot of EU positions with UKIP or the Tories. The other two parties you mention remained invisible in the results.
I would also like to remind you that the question of EU membership is a problem of the British. They decide whether they want to be in or out. Democratic principles would require that you vote on this, blog contributions are of no relevance. Let's see whether in the upcoming general elections (a) EU Membership will be an issue, and (b) a clear picture evolves.
What the rest of Europe will no longer accept is that the UK blackmails the EU with vetoes, red lines and other nationalistic crap. After more than 35 years of EC membership the UK still hasn't managed to organise a mature and fact-based debate. It's so pathetic that nobody outside the small circle of Little Englanders listens anymore. The EU will certainly move on and will leave the UK to manage its increasing political and economic disintegration.
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brambobush (201)
Try reading something other than your easy-to-hand labour propoganda pamphlet eh? Please try not to espouse such garbage in future as there are intelligent people reading these blogs and we don't want to scare them away with your ridiculous babblings.
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Have the mods gone on Strike?
Anyway for all the hand-wringers out there, if anybody who didn't bother to vote complains at the rise of the BNP tough. Not bothering to vote loses your electoral voice, so I re-iterate TOUGH!
I didn't and wouldn't vote BNP but I can totally sympathise with those that would. And am getting hacked off with all of those who would wish them banned, that is not the answer, it might be the socialist way, but it is not the way forward.
Once we get past the left-wing thought control of what is perceived wisdom, the country can start to move forward. Only once the PC police are crushed and people are free to think again can Britain move forward. Stifling debate is no good, banning the BNP is utterly wrong as you can guarantee that UKIP would be next for being anti-european and therefore Racist is some way. This Government, in fact all government's fear debate, that is why they would rather ban than discuss.
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201. At 3:22pm on 08 Jun 2009, brambobush wrote:
We the British electorate are astonishing!
Just exactly what is it that Gordon Brown is supposed to have done that is so awful?
1. Tony Blair presided over the most heinous crime - starting a war in Iraq and lying about its justification.
Gordon Brown has done nothing so terrible.
2. Brown didn't cause the banker to wreck the economy - that was the greed of the rich (oh, and by the way, we are talking about Mr Cameron's and Mr Osborn's friends here or have you forgotten?).
3. Last year, Brown was criticised by the Tories for OVER REGULATING the banks! - Great call there, Mr Cameron. Spot on, eh?
4. Brown has led the world in dealing with this banking mess. The Tory policy is to let it run its course, and we all know what happened last time the Tories followed that path - South Wales, the North, Midlands, industry, and the rest of us who ain't rich.
5. Parliament, not the Government, allowed the abuse of expenses (yes, the Tories too) As for UKIP - jailed!
6. Brown didn't flip his second home, claim for unjustifiable gardening expenses and get the tax payer to pay for a massively huge mortgage on his country home. But David Cameron did.
7. Labour has created the biggest national debit in history. True, but that is largely by bailing out the banks and saving the economy and OUR jobs.
8. Labour's debits will take generations to pay off. Hmm, the Sheik that bailed out Barclays Bank just sold his preference shares and made 1.5 Billion quid in profit. Just wait til we do the same with our national shares in Lloydes, HBOS, etc. Then who's laughing?
9. Brown lacks vision. Really? - Apart from saving the country from the bankers' economic ruin, and saving as many jobs as possible. Whereas the Tories lack any policies at all other than calling for an election. Hmm.Just WHAT DO THEY STAND FOR?
10. Brown doesn't come across well. Okay, true.So you'd rather have a slick talking, shiny and vacuous Etonian so long as he looks good on telly. Great, we'll get the politicians we deserve then.
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I would sooner have Gordon Brown as he his more likely to make the changes as necessary to MP's pay and expenses
If you look who brought in the present pay and allowances in the 80's you will find that it do's not cover us if we have an election they got this con through on us and till now have done nothing to change it they have had nearly 30 years to change it but have they NO why because until the freedom of information act opened there expenses and allowances to public view
The other thing is that allot of MP's wanted to change the freedom of information act so it did not apply to them
We know now why they were so desperate to get it changed once they realized what it meant to them and we could see how much and what they were taking us for
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The next time Gordon is being interviewed by the BBC and he says," What the British people want me to do is to stay and carry on to sort things out.", could the BBC newscaster say, "No, Prime Minister, actually what the British people have said is "GO NOW!!!""
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Brown is finished. The trouble is that he is a man who would do anything to hang onto power - whatever the consequences. Thank goodness he has to call a general election within the next year - by law.
The best case for what is going on is that it means the end of Labour (old or new) as a credible political force. The worst case is scorched earth tactics to make victory in the general election even more of a poisoned challis than it already is.
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Nick,
my sources tell me Susan Boyle has phoned Mandelson to check if Gordon is alright after his humiliating defeat. Can you confirm?
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amy1282 (202) says that in a parliamentary system you don't vote for a primeminister you vote for a party. That is not correct.
In the Euro elections just held (using a PR system) you vote for a party but in Westminster elections you vote for a candidate who may or may not belong to a party. The tradition in our (unwritten) constitution is that the Queen requests the person most likely to command a majority in Parliament to form a Government. That is generally the leader of the party that has returned the most MPs. Technically amy1282 is right that Brown is no more unelected than Blair because voters returned more Labour Party candidates to Parliament than any others rather than directly electing Blair. After the last election the Queen invited Blair to form a Govermnent. Then, when he resigned as PM, she invited Brown to form one on the basis that the Labour Party had declared him the new leader. So far, so good. But that is not the way most people see it.
In reality people take three things into account when they vote:
a) the identity of the candidate - e.g. the Tories lost Tatton to Martin Bell (independent) because Neil Hamilton was not acceptable as a candidate. When they chose a more acceptable candidate they recovered the seat.
b) the party the candidate belongs to - their image, policies etc
c) their judgement on the suitability of the leader of that party as Primeminister - because that's the only position in the new Government people can be sure of when they vote in a General Election. There is an established view that a major factor in Labour's defeat in 1992 was a lack of voter confidence in Kinnock as PM - fuelled by the media (the Sun in particular).
With the way elections are now fought with modern media this third consideration has arguably become the most important. Surely in 1979 people were predominately voting for Thatcher and in 1997 they were voting for Blair. In this sense changing a Primeminister mid term does leave a democratic deficit because a key part of the 'package' people voted for has disappeared.
So hopefully we can get beyond this technical stuff and agree that Brown lacks the electoral legitmacy of a party leader who has fought and won a General Election.
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206. At 3:54pm on 08 Jun 2009, purpleangelgeorgina wrote
Er, how will that work exactly?
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A small business at the moment knows what the minimum wage is and costs it self to make a profit at that rate but if you take away this safty net for workers and business you get businesses moving in to the market who do not want to pay a fair days pay and will under cut those businesses that pay a fair days pay
we will be back to pre 1997
were we will have to work 100 hours a week just to pay bills
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I'm taken in by no-one ragjunkie. I am merely saying - having studied Fascism in depth - that now is not the time for a change in leadership. The BNP have gained because of the GLOBAL economic recession - and the latter is well-catalogued as one of the pre-cursors for Fascism to gain a hold. People become scared during such times - quite naturally - because they fear losing their jobs and homes. They panic - and reach for scapegoats - and this baying for Brown's blood has all the hallmarks of scapegoating amidst panic.
We would do well to realise that the real responsibility for this 'credit crunch' lies in the greed and deception of those who borrowed beyond their means.
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185. At 1:42pm on 08 Jun 2009, johncarrelson
187. At 2:17pm on 08 Jun 2009, Dayvine
Get the tinfoil hats out, watch out for men in white coats too!
Blaming Baby P and the economic downturn on Thatcher! The inner cities without fail, had Labour administrations, who rather than focus on doing their jobs, improving services, maintianing/improving standards decided to spend the money on meaningless projects and political posturing.
Haringey council has been Labour run since 1971, they are totally responsible for the social work dept and to pull a stunt like this is pretty disgusting. Not really a surprise from NuLabour apologists, but most certainly part of the reason they are destined to a long sabbatical in the wilderness at best
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195. At 2:51pm on 08 Jun 2009, Doc - thevoiceofreason
Some good points, but to be honest Brown was a Dead Man Walking after Tony Liar got found out. Most of the Blairites(Torylites) left are in the same mould, self serving, egomaniacs, or downright "thieving toads". Labours problems are far from over with a leadership change and I predict many more "Labour's long night of painful firsts" type headlines before they can recover. Blair and Brown between them have destroyed an historic legacy.
One of the few elder statesmen with any credibility left like Frank Field should step forward. He may be able to salvage some respect from the wreckage, but Milliband will be forever tainted as a Blair clone. Johnson could pull it off I suspect, but not sure he would want to
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re: 207
Agree that it is not his direct fault about BNP but he indirectly upset so many traditional labour voters who stayed at home in protest. The BNP actually took less votes than before but because everybody has been so disgusted with how GB had behaved they inevitable happened.
Financially he blew the opportunity to build up our reserves in the good times so that should a rainy day occur we could ride out the storm. Now we are having to borrow to bale out businesses. I dont think that
many object to the principle of funding of the banks etc but it is using borrowed funds that 'took the biscuit'.
Oh and he lies. Lots. He's arrogant in a destructive way and crushes anybody that does not dance to his tune. Why do you think there is no successor right now?
He has deep anger and bitterness inside of him. Even his new found deputy wrote about this only a matter of months ago.
He is not a leader. He tries to be like one but fails. He will say to other leaders anything they want to hear. Just like he did to the US Congress and European Parliament. It is all a sham.
He is being 'tumbled' as we speak. Hopefully
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#201 - my experience of the electorate is that they tend to be media led. There are very few real issues that Gordon Brown has failed in. He is an easy target due to his awkward style but Boris Johnson is evidence if ever there were any needed that we as a nation are a bit dim when it comes to electing leaders. Its a shame that the media don't represent more effectively what the real issues are and if Tories could actually do a better job. But they can probably get more headlines out of a change of government so that is what they espouse.
I don't love labour and some of their ministers can be a bit annoying and sanctimonious but I doubt very much that the tories can do a better job and the habits and political leanings of some of their back-benchers are alarming. The Tories are after all the fiddlers in chief, with many more of their number resigning with fingers caught in the tin, and for some reason labour are the ones to blame. They have some blame maybe for lack of governance of expenses administration but if you suggest that the tories managed it better I would be fighting hard to suppress a little chuckle.
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Re: 167 desperatelysad
Excellent post.
Everyone else: read it (or re-read it !).
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Re: 162 RayBlane
Another good post, well done. Well written and oh so true...
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Time for some perspective here.
Firstly, the Euro Elections yet again showed that the British public isn't interested. Turnout was less than 2004 at a paltry 34.2%
Secondly, not only Labour but the Tory vote was down at a time when Labour is apparently imploding - remember also 2004 was heralded as the precursor to a Tory Govt.
So all it proves is the Labour vote didn't turnout. A week in politics is a long time and a year, well 2004 proves not to count your chickens.
Gordon Brown has cleared the decks of the Blairites - like lemmings they tumbled off only to find there was no mass uprising. There was also some notable ministers involved in the expenses issues who took their leave.
Now enables him to turn the spotlight on the Tory moat/duckhouse/wysteria clearing individuals. It will also be interesting to see how the media play this one particularly after recent revelations seem to sneak under the radar last week.
How long then before disaffected Tory MP's decide to follow in the footsteps of their Labour colleagues and try to unseat their leader.
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RE 222:
Firstly, it is still a non-argument to blame GB for low Labour turnout gifting the BNP. If people were disillusioned with GB and really troubled by the economic situation and the impact his policies were having on it, they should have listened to the party politicals, read the fliers, and gone to the polls to vote against Labour. If GB is doing such a bad job it shouldn't inspire apathy, but action. If BNP voters are the only ones who show up, then you can't blame the politicians who've all offered a variety of choices to the voter.
I think there is even an argument that says that incredibly turn-out shows people are not interested in a general election right now, just in getting a pay-check and getting through next week. I know, before someone says it, that this is an EU election, low turn-out is expected, but to have lower turn-out in the first post-economic-meltdown poll than in the previous EU poll at the height of a boom - that means something! Frankly, I think most people realise that no politicians of any political alignment have an easy answer to this problem. There has to be an election next year, and that will be a good time for one too - the dust will have settled from the recession, and the British public can decide the direction of the recovery.
Oh, and the comments about bank bailouts - how exactly would you prop up banks if it isn't with borrowed money? The US government has paid out $2.7 trillion dollars (according to CNN this morning) in bailouts already. Do you think Obama had that sitting in Uncle Sam's emergency savings fund?
Oh, and another unrelated question for everyone on the board: I really want to know why Nick Clegg thinks, when looking at a drop in LibDem votes, and a net loss of councils around the country, that he should be on the band-wagon for a general election? It'd be really surprised if the LibDems gained any seats in a GE held tomorrow - perhaps Clegg knows something I don't.
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Watching Jack Straw ,s performance yesterday on live parliment to about 12 MP,s in the house, I felt embarressed watching! he was stumbling to read a pre-written answer,s to questions on a matter of justice! This man is Gorden Brown,s cabinet minister on justice! Hopfully Gordon is happy with his reprentation of of a government in full control! Sorry about the spelling!
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