From unthinkable to unavoidable
There is nothing like the whiff - or should that be the stench - of scandal to concentrate the minds of our political leaders.
What was unthinkable just a few weeks ago has suddenly become unavoidable.
For David Cameron the stories of cash for moats and manure was both a threat and an opportunity. A threat to his claim to have changed and modernised the Conservative Party but also an opportunity to demonstrate leadership in doing just that.
As a result, some Tory MPs are writing very large cheques tonight.
Others are waiting nervously for the choice their leader says they'll face between paying up or getting out of the party.
Still more will lose a substantial slice of what they've come to regard as their legitimate income - as they are no longer able to claim for things they once could.
Labour who've been left trailing in David Cameron's wake, have tonight rushed to say that they would go further still - limiting the generous mortgage payments which the Tory leader, amongst others, benefits from to the tune of over £24,000 a year. An awful lot of money but just one receipt.
None of this, of course, will be enough to silence those who complain that politicians only said and agreed to change after being caught with their hands in the till.
None of this will rescue the careers of once rising stars or senior backbench figures who will struggle to recover from the publication of their expenses claims.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~18~RS~)
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If Cameron's actions have the desired effect and halt the gravy train all well and good!
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Nick,
Others are born to be leaders - Gordon was born to be a follower. Always way behind the curve.
Still haven`t heard a word from Gordon about making Labour MPs pay back their ill gotten gains. Only Harriet generalising, thereby avoiding doing anything about Labour MPs who have milked the system.
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At least 'Dave' appears to be doing something to lance the boil in the Tory Party - what have Labour done until shamed into it by Cameron's move.
Frankly the system is corrupt - from the openly partisan 'Mr Speaker' to the majority of the Labour Party - it's one big open sewer.
The people of this country deserve an immediate General Election to clean out the stable and get a fresh government in: The current one is is starting to rot and the smell is appalling.
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Well, it's good that they're paying back the expenses, of course, but the fact remains they were quite happy to claim them in the first place, and are only agreeing to pay them back because they got caught.
If Cameron thinks this is going to make me trust him, he is sadly mistaken.
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A number of houses/flats in London between 300-600 should be purchased by parliment for M.P's to use. They should remain the Property of the State. Each should have a £1000 a year budget for maintance. All other expenses on the property are to be paid by the M.P's.
They can Buddy up is they like to keep the costs down.
Thus solving the expenses row once and for all.
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So Dave thinks its "opportunity Knocks" does he,
No doubt he "means it most sincerely folks, he really does"
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I have just watched the BBC news and was horrified to see a helicopter used to fly over some MPs private house.
What are you playing at?
Do you fail to see that once the politicians have been dealt with , there will be a keener interest taken in the BBC and how it spends our money?
Helicopters are not cheap and cause pollution just like other flying objects and just to stimulate the politics of envy.
I think little of Lord Foulkes ,but he has a point when he says there are those in the media earning much more than backbenchers and for what?
In the BBC s case , they earn their money by being IMPARTIAL , don't they?
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At last Dave shows some leadership...
He know has high ground and can ask why "Hazel" still fit for the labour cabinet.... GB dithers about getting rid of her.......
Last weeks private chat
this weeks silence
dither dither dither....
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Prompt action! That's what we got from Cameron.
After months of complacency we now see who can get off the blocks first to quell a reaction which is so damaging to a country desperately in need of leadership.
Yes they've all been at it but it's done and now it has to be sorted.
Cameron put himself in the firing line today and I have to say how impressed I am at the way he handled some very awkward questions from the press.
As for Brown. Where is he?
As for the Liberal party well they can't do anything yet because they're still waiting to here what's still to come. There aren't many of them so it can't be too bad.
It has unfortunately overshadowed the diabolical unemployment figures which is what they should all be concentrating on.
Interesting to hear an ex deputy speaker say that it is the tradition for a speaker to stand down about a year before the next election is due. Does our present speaker have no respect for this country's traditions? Or does he have to be dragged out kicking and screaming?
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Labours only ideas are to stop things in future....
They dont understand... we want the past disgrace fixed and fixed soon.
We need a totaliser of Ammount Incorrectly Paid - and Paid Back
With the highest 3 in the Incorrectly Paid shown every day - how long will MP want to be top of that list ?
Name and Shame...
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same old same old, Nick, Labour ( and Gordon ) to the core ! journalist - I don't think so !
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Where is Martin Bell when you need him?
The worst 5 MP offenders in each party, should be targeted at the next General Election by a 'Clean Up Party' because only their removal from seats will be a punishment they will understand.
Once targeted, hopefully their own political parties will see sense and deselect them before the public have to deliver justice through the ballot box.
Please come back Martin Bell and lead the 'Clean Up Party'.
Claret Scott
Filton
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Accomodation for MPs? If I recall, in the basement of Madame Tussauds, there was a large space called The Chamber of Horrors........
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they have office space at parliament, in there constituency
and they have there homes. A second home in london as well maybe
#5 like the idea but also they need to think about what a MP needs to do his job. I know they need to have private meetings away form the media etc , so they should not all be in the same building.
but it has legs your idea.
they should live in the constituency that they represent, no more parachutes etc.
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WhiteEnglishProud's idea is interesting - but has he worked out the cost? A one-bedroom flat in london will cost you at least 200K so we're talking about 60-120 million quid. And the tax payer would have to pick up council tax, utilities, repairs etc.
And remember that housing costs are only one element of 'allowances' and 'expenses'. Don't forget admin staff (expensed), constituency office (expensed) etc...
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Fascinating interview at lunch time today ... where we find out that a BBC newsreader who presents for a few hours each day is apparently worth £95,000 a year. As a taxpayerand a business owner I can most assuredly tell you that in my opinion she most definitely is not worth anywhere near that amount. She is no Jeremy Paxman. Time to show the British public how their money is being spent at the BBC too.
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Clear distance between the parties, but the country is still swimming against the tide of Brown stuff
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Can't wait for the sequel to all this - local Councillors and their expense claims? Imagine the can of worms there!
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So Cameron and the Tories are the "do nothing party"?
Well, it sure looks like Labour and their illustrious 'leader' have been left standing.
As usual.
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Dear Nick,
Is it at last the 'Do nothing' party is doing something whilst the 'ruling' party rots nosily away?
No time for a novice or more like no time GB and his light fingered cronies?
Xxxx
June is such a nice time for a revolution, do you not think Nick?
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Cameron takes action, Brown skulks in the overseas undergrowth, Harriet the untruthful makes a sweeping non statement, afraid to say anything that will alienate the faithful since she still has visions of replacing Brown, and much better to let him alienate the faithful by curbing their appetites for lucre at the expence of the taxpayer. When can we see the demise of the dreadful little man masquerading as speaker ? As a fellow Scot I am ashamed of his behaviour. The SNP become more attractive by the minute. Westminster is now as corrupt as it has ever been, I suspect even Cromwell himself would be amazed at how low the " mother of parliaments " has sunk.
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What's more, none of it will stop the questions as to why a hitherto obscure BBC newsreader is on 92.5K a year, presumably plus allowances. Thanks to George Foulkes the pay and allowances genie is out of the BBC bottle. How many more are earning three times what many of us would consider a good year's pay?
Meanwhile credit to Cameron for getting something on the table fast. I'd sooner it was something a bit more structured than what Dave thinks is "excessive" and I'd be happier if we'd been treated to a comprehensive list of all claims, not just the ones which the Telegraph has decided to release. Still, it's a start.
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"Trailing in David Cameron's wake" is one way of putting it.
Today was always about how Cameron would deal with the squalid scandals among his own kind and Dave didn't disappoint.
But at the centre still is Billy-no-friends Brown who's been left high and dry.
Brown and his cabinet need to get their act together soonest. It's all about trust, as I point out here. Meanwhile where's Gordon?
http://theorangepartyblog.blogspot.com/2009/05/dave-leads-way-wheres-gordon.html
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What DC says is all well and good but, and its a massive but, MP's are still in control of the rules and what gets paid and what doesn't. This is no good in a purportedly democratic country.
I hear the word "transparency" alot, but basically crooked people are in control of the public purse. As employers WE have the right to set pay and conditions not MP's.
I fail to see why parliament considers itself sovereign. It is not. They are simply the elected representatives of the poeple. And on simple topics such as pay and conditions there should no longer be MP's voting on it. Its not their concern unless they want the job. We have not got the brightest and the best under current conditions so a rasdical change will niot harm us the people very much.
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It demonstrates how lacklustre the monitoring procedures were that only now have the Tory's (and no doubt soon to follow Labour) have suddenly decided to set up 'scrutiny comittees' after being busted.
Any decent private sector company has managers check staff claims for excessive amounts and once submitted the accounts department do again as a matter of course. It amazes me that so many highly dubious and spurious claims were just signed off without question, and that so many public servants were more than happy to abuse the system they are meant to represent.
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nick. A surprisingly even-handed comment. Well done. Can we have more of this impartiality, please?
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I thought Speaker Martin was a socialist who believes in everyone equal, re-distribution of wealth and no to nepotism.
He actually believes in building up his family wealth, re-distribution of our wealth (Not his) and using tax payers money for his family to use at will. SOCIALIST HA HA HA GOT YOU
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For once I think Norman Tebbit has come up with a good idea!...
DON'T VOTE LABOUR
DON'T VOTE TORY
DON'T VOTE LIB DEM
...at the forthcoming elections.
VOTE FOR ANY ONE OF THE OTHERS!
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Not unavoidable but essential
I see that the BBC show Conservatives MPs' houses but not the Labour MPs'. Got to make a point of course.
So Nick, I hope you agree that Cameron has done the right thing and shown real leadership. Brown in comparison is totally out of sight. What he does is general, like his apology for all MPs. At least Cameron apologised for his own and said "SORRY." Brown couldn't even say that.
For once I was impressed by Polly Toynbee. I an interview she was totally off-message saying Brown is finished.
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Did I understand correctly that Cameron is putting some of his MPs to the sword for putting in detailed claims, while himselfclaiming the absolute maximum allowable, but on a single receipt? If so then he really does have no shame at all.
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The Politicians just do not get it, the tax system in the UK should be the same for EVERYONE. I have my own business and had a tax investigation.
They only allow me £2 a week to use my home as my office.
They will not allow me to buy a suit on the company because of duality (I will use the suit for personal use).
They disallowed a hotel receipt because I took my wife to the hotel for the night, even though I proved I was there on business.
We can only recover mileage at 40p a mile if we prove that it was business use.
I am ok with the above only if it applies to EVERYONE, in all walks of life we can justify why we are different to everyone else but the tax laws must be for everyone.
The Politicians say they are different, I know plenty of people that commute to London to do the day job and work late at night WHY DO THEY KEEP WITHIN THE TAX LAWS!!! because they have to.
The one thing that really gets me is that Labour are socialists and believe in re-distribution of wealth but this LOT only believe in the re-distribution of our wealth not their wealth.
Also Labour are socialists and do not believe in the SILVER SPOON (Nepotism) at birth, they moan moan and moan, until they become wealthy then what do they do, help their own children with the same SILVER SPOON which actually tells me that they are not true socialists but only jealous of people's wealth.
This LOT (Labour) are only interested in themselves and their family and should be sent to the wilderness of politics, they have failed in everything they have touched.
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"7. At 6:44pm on 12 May 2009, Diabloandco wrote:
I have just watched the BBC news and was horrified to see a helicopter used to fly over some MPs private house.
What are you playing at?
Do you fail to see that once the politicians have been dealt with , there will be a keener interest taken in the BBC and how it spends our money?
Helicopters are not cheap and cause pollution just like other flying objects and just to stimulate the politics of envy."
I thought exactly the same, wonder how much CO2 the BBC generated in its "flight of envy".
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what did I say? ! as long as someone doesnt try and claim the moral highground on this and Cameron trots in , its a joke, they are writing cheques are they ? with interest ? are they going to admit to fraud ? no didnt think so ,and hey if it doesnt have a receipt doesnt mean they are not getting the money from somewhere else, maybe they went to the cashpoint near the yacht
If he can do this now why didnt they do it when they took office ????? no one forces them to take the money, there are no rules, these illusive "its within the rules", rules that say you must take the money, get rid of the lot of them, why do we need them >? get the Queen to take over again, at least you knew your head was on the block all the time with them, the Parliament Parasites are nice to your face and stab you in the back, and come back and stick in back in again and again, and tell you it for your own good.
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17. At 7:01pm on 12 May 2009, StrongholdBarricades wrote:
Clear distance between the parties, but the country is still swimming against the tide of Brown stuff.
No we're up to our necks in it and our children will as well.
Will Government debt be know in the future as "Brown stuff"? It should be.
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So where are we in the game then? Cameron leading methinks.As always Brown
is dithering and getting left behind,not very quick on his feet is he?
Still no resignation letter from the Speaker,he really is clinging on for
dear life,despite being the worst Speaker in living memory.
Anyone know where Smith and McNulty are hiding? They were so busy not so long ago telling us they were right,all in the rules etc etc.
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Cameron you are a STAR just get PURDY on side as your deputy!!
CHECK MATE GORDY!!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
OH BY THE WAY ANYBODY IN THE MEDIA CONCERNED ABOUT THE 250,000 PUT OUT OF
WORK SINCE THE NEW YEAR??
GUESS THEY DONT MATTER?
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Cameron benefits from a mortgage payment of £24,000 per year. ?????? For how many years has this daylight robbery of the electorate by the Tory Leader been going on ??????? We can begin to understand why the French
Revolutionaries resorted to tumbril and guillotine. However, for us the stocks might do the job. All
these disgusting parasites, Cameron et al who've been robbing us blind for years, should be sentenced to a term in the stocks in some very public place - as public as Parliament Square - we, their victims, could pelt them with all kinds of non-lethal and appropriate garbage. It would make us feel better and might well
take the smirks off their nasty overfed faces.
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I must say i agree with the labour peer foulkes when he asked how much the bbc presenter was earning and what she claims in expenses!!! i bet the bbc are not whiter than white either, this expenses stuff is a lot of nonsense i couldnt care a less who claims what,i bet given half a chance we all do the same, i know i would, what upsets people is that they cant get away with it!!!!
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@ disgusted / eaton
OK, you will never like Cameron or his party, but for all your carping, ask yourself this - what has Gordon Brown done? After all, the details of his party's expense abuses have been in the papers for a couple of days more than the Tories, so they have had ample time to put this in place.
Also, it's not just that DC is making people pay back money, it's that he's gone a step further and said no claiming for food, furniture, etc etc. Surely that's a good thing, whoever starts the ball rolling?
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Reform suggestions. Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS).
100 MPs.
The house should be open for session everyday except weekends and public holidays.
Salary paid in installments over 4 years. Salary is linked to a combination of UK inflation, GDP, national debt, unemployment level, crime figures for the current year and subsequent 3 years. 5 weeks annual leave which can be taken anytime. Standard public pension.
No claimable expenses and allowances.
The perks?
.
Free simple but clean accommodation (eg. room with toilet and wash basin) at Westminster with free utilities (electricity, gas, water) and security.
Free self-service free launderette with dryers.
Free 24 hour self-service meals/sandwiches/drinks when the house is in session.
Every MP will be provided with a seasonal pass on public transport to/from their constituency.
The rewards?
A chance for genuine responsibility and to serve the country and the people. And perhaps, at the end of the service, to be recognised as honourable.
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For the first time in a while, a leader of his party has been seen to be taking decisive action over something which is very damaging to not only his party, but to the credibility of Parliament on the whole. Cannot fault David Cameron for making swift decisions to start the ball rolling in paying monies back. It does not mean that he is wholly trustworthy but it goes a long way in seeing a politician actually doing something positive, rather than making bland, vapid statements to the press. It should not have taken Cameron's actions for the government to be spurned in to action. It just shows that knee jerk politics have never really left us, for all the spin. Still there is a long way to go before the trust in politicians can be restored, but a complete review of the expenses as well as the role of public servant should be comprehensive to say the least. The whole thing must be looked at again with regards to how best these people serve our nations interests without putting their pockets first. Get over that hump, then anything is possible!
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re the LIBDEMS and the following 3 big and burning issues ...
1. IRAQ WAR
... only party to oppose it
2. EXPENSES
... quite a bit cleaner than the other 2 (yes?)
3. ECONOMY
... Cable rated way ahead of Osborne or Brown
should reap an electoral benefit, shouldn't they? - quite a large one too, one would have thought - if they don't do extremely well next time, then what on earth's the point in being right?
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Nick, you blog "none of this will rescue the careers of"
Do we really believe that the politicians will be overcome with remorse and give up the search for power? The thick skin shown by some Ministers is staggering. They stand and spout that their claims are within the rules so why should it affect their careers?
Honourable is not a word to be used in Parliament except ironically.
No one is too concerned as pension rights are guaranteed for life along with possible promotion to the Lords or that other gravy train the EU
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#38 excellent point, the media are the problem ,lets the mps get on with their job,brown has much to sort out!!!!!
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Repaying money after being caught out isn't good enough. Why did they claim it in the first place? Greed and arrogance, is the answer, plain and simple. Do we want such people representing us? The answer is a resounding 'No'!
So Dave, and Gord, I suggest that since both of you have been greedy, as have many of your cabinet and shadow cabinet colleagues, that you sack them before handing in your own resignations. Today, not tomorrow.
A general election is not the answer.
Unfortunately, neither sackings and/or resignations will solve the problem of governance in the UK. The entire political system is corrupt and needs bulldozing. A fresh start is required. The country needs an entrenched written constitution, and a bill of rights to protect our rights/liberties, together with a supreme court capable of striking down unconstitutional legislation. The present 'sovereignty of parliament' lies at the heart of the problem.
The country's new constitution should have a section dealing with standards in public life - what is acceptable and what is not. Those who fall short should be barred from public office for life, together with loss of all pension rights etc, and harsh penalties for corruption of any kind. Both parliamentary chambers should be fully elected. Hereditary privilege should be ended. Ideally it would be a republican constitution, as a monarchy as presently constituted represents the aristocracy and the privileged classes.
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They're giving the money back because they've been caught. Their superior Tory Morality amounts to not being caught and giving tax breaks to stop people divorcing. Can't wait to find out what the media wants me to be angry about next.
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A solution to the two homes mess might be to build a purpose-built MPs hotel where they can stay when in London free of charge. Meeting rooms could be available too, but don't most of them have an office in the Palace of Westminster? MPs might be expected to stay in London while Parliament sits, and travel expenses could be paid on a reasonable basis ie weekly commuting unless justified in advance.
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Im asuming that the miss claimed expenses being paid back will
a) incure interest at the Inland Rev late payments rate (7 or 8% APR i beleive) from the date paid to them to the date repaid
b) No MP paying back payments will be allowed to increase the mortage on their second home to free up the cash for the repayment.
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Very large cheques????
Seriously Nick - £10-20k is not really a very large cheque for any of these politicians and if they view it as such, then they are not ready to lead. This is small change when it comes to government, the shame though is that it is coming out of their own pockets!
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"As a result, some Tory MPs are writing very large cheques tonight".
=========================================================================
Not as large as the cheques that our New Labour friends are going to have pay when HMRC send them a bill for unpaid tax due on the sale of their 'flipped' second homes.
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I'm going to london in two weeks time for work and having several meetings with civil servents and one with a minister, parlement is not sitting (their in yet another recess) so i am wondering if I can use any of the MP's flats to stay over night, after all they can not be using them as they get the costs paid if the the property is sole used of goverment business.
As i'm in London for goverment business, I have been asked to meet the Minister to supply unpaid for advice (I will not even be charging the tax payer for travel, lodging or food), so I MUST be elagable?
Any MPs want to email me via the BBC and offer me the use of the tax payers funded flats?
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"sagamix wrote:
re the LIBDEMS and the following 3 big and burning issues ..."
With any luck they will be the official opposition next year but with enough seats to actually put up a solid fight to the Tories (I doubt it is too much to hope for them to actually win out-right)
Hopefully Labour will end up as a fringe party like UKIP, or the Greens.
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PUZZLING at 42
GUESS YOU WILL STAND THEN AND LIVE LIKE A STUDENT?
Some people have families even a few have a life outside Westminster?
SWALLOW YOUR OWN MEDICINE. . .
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Can every one do as I have done and write to the Inland Rev Hot line and report any MP, that has used "Second Home Flipping" or has declaired one hone to parliment as their second home and one to the tax man, for tax fraud.
Also send a copy letter the the leader of the MP's party, your MP, the PM, the Speaker, the house ethics committee and the commander of your local police force demanding that the full force of the law is applied to this case.
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One can't help wondering why Brown hasn't told all his MPs who have claimed for swimming pools, moat clearance, and tennis court repairs to repay immediately.
Meanwhile, I am flummoxed as to why I should be helping the leader of the opposition to buy his luxurious 'cottage' in the country by paying his mortgage interest. I'm sure when I bought my own villa I had to pay both the mortgage and the interest myself.
I did enjoy watching Lord Foulkes put the boot in to the News 24 presenter (Carrie something or other). She has been annoying me for a considerable time by her arrogant assumption that her audience are unable to understand statements or speeches that we have just been watching 'live', and that we need her to provide her own paraphrase. It wouldn't be so bad if she could get it right, but she usually doesn't. The idea that she is 50% more valuable than an MP, or worth three times as much as a qualified nurse or teacher is just laughable, and explains a lot about the state of our society in my opinion.
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Well I suppose paying back some of the money is a start!
I suggest all expenses be suspended (except essential travel and overnight accommodation)until a new "fule proof" system is in place - that would certainly speed up the process.
Use the Olympic village for future accommodation as per suggested by others. (We do own it already don't we? Well I thought we paid for it anyway..)
Have a residence rule on people applying to be considered as MPs ie at least 5 years living in the constituency they hope to represent.
Elections at regular defined intervals, set times to prevent this fiasco on timing of the next election.
I could go on, but I get tired and annoyed and disheartened when I think about the absolute mess everything is. (Speaker, IT scemes, ID cards etc etc etc)
Tony Blair spend many pounds and travelled many miles trying to sort out his legacy. He shouldn't have bothered - THIS is his legacy.
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I suppose, now that we have one BBC employee outed in the salary stakes you might like to volunteer your expenses and salary too Nick, how about it? Must be more than an autocue reader, no?
Meanwhile Brown makes a statement on crime (does he understand irony?) to rehash old policies and take someone else's credit, the unemployment figures leap, and the Job Seekers figures are massaged
Where is the comment on that?
I hear that it is the Lib Dems next, and then the Telegraph turns to the worst troughers. This story has so many legs it has spawned whole litters of piglets
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Dear Nick
You state: Labour who've been left trailing in David Cameron's wake....I seem to recall two Labour backbenchers had already announced their intentions to repay monies much earlier than the CAmercon press conference.
The point I made on my blog was that there was a case for all MPs to examine their own consciences first before the Party Leaders/machine step in.
http://www.petergkenyon.typepad.com/
Then at least we, the public and/or party activists have a better chance of (re)assessing the abilities of the party representatives that we are either going to vote or campaign for.
All we are getting from the Tories now is top down Westminster village stuff. And of course that's what you report. There is, however, a role for improved governance of our political parties from the constituencies down to the Houses of Parliament, as well as a much stricter system of Parliamentary Allowances.
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I'd like to pick up on a couple of ideas. The CofE, bless it, has manses in most parishes, why don't we have 'state houses' in each constituency, a hotel (olympics site) in London, then we don't need to pay them anything more.
I also wonder how many of these people [MP's] would ever get a job in the real world paying them £60-70k a year. By the way is the Tower of London still operative.
After Fred Goodwin, for heavens sake don't let us make the same mistake again with MP's and boost their pay to abolish expenses. The effect on their already extremely generous pension would be another enormous benefit to them that would cost the rest of us millions.
Has anyone else complained yet about Ed Balls & Yvette Cooper claiming four sets of allowances between them for two houses. All within the rules of course, if we did it we'd be up for benefit fraud!!
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I think we can draw a line in the sand as far as the Conservatives are concerned. All wrongs have been righted!
As for Labour? Still hanging on to their filthy money! They have no shame! The party should be thrown out of government and prohibited from office for decades to come!
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#4 Disgusted
"If Cameron thinks this is going to make me trust him, he is sadly mistaken".
=============
Disgusted, you probably weren't going to vote for DC anyway.
Also I don't think DC or GB or NC think for one minute that by saying a few niceties means that instant trust will be created.
Trust has to be earned and each of them will have to start somewhere; people will have see if their actions are louder than words.
Think if DC did nothing, something he's apparently good at, we'd all be saying: "He's doing nothing" and we'd be right.
Well we can't say that now, can we, because he has does something. And just you wait, New Labour will be bringing up the rear to do something too.
We could say quite rightly: "He hasn't gone far enough".
But then that's why he said that this is just the 'start'.
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"Labour who've been left trailing in David Cameron's wake, have tonight rushed to say that they would go further still - limiting the generous mortgage payments which the Tory leader, amongst others, benefits from to the tune of over £24,000 a year. An awful lot of money but just one receipt".
============
Nick, it now sounds as if New Labour wrote this question out for you to ask DC.
Did they?
And did they also say how much your assets and income should be before it would be possible to claim this permitted allowance? I say this because there are many MPs in the house with assets totalling more than a million . Should we set the bar at £29,999,999 before you are exempt. This is laughable as was the question and you should be ashamed of yourself, Nick; it's sneering class envy again.
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#22 fingertapper
Spot on on all counts.
Are we related?
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48. At 7:55pm on 12 May 2009, dhwilkinson wrote:
They're giving the money back because they've been caught. Their superior Tory Morality amounts to not being caught and giving tax breaks to stop people divorcing. Can't wait to find out what the media wants me to be angry about next.
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dh - do you really think your precious labour party can claim moral high ground then - after all they are supposed to be the party of the people - you know - redistribute the wealth - help the poor, that kind of thing.
I'm not suggesting that the tories are any less fraudulant than labour on this issue, but they're no where near as hypnocritical as people like prescott - man for common people - yeah right.
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I think those of you complaining about Cameron claiming the full allowance for his second home mortgage payments are missing the point. It is fair to pay MPs outside London expenses for a second home as long as they do not claim for all the other stuff like bath plugs, porn films patio heaters, pool cleaning horse manure etc., which is exactly what he promised was being stamped out from today. Any house in London is likely to require more than the maximum payment available for mortgage payments so he is not being unreasonable.
Of course, Broon, caught again with his troosers doon, has made no such commitment, so the Cabinet can continue filling their boots at our expense until Kelly finally works out how to stop this.
As for Martin, the man is a disgrace and and an embarrassment to High Office and must go TOMORROW!
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Having looked at what David Cameron has suggested it looks correct ie interest / rent on second home, utility bills, travel and occasional over night hotels.
BUT I think the rent / mortgage interest should be limited to the AVERAGE price / rent of a 2 bed flat withing 30 min travel time of Westminster at the time they move in.
Setting the value on their move in time allows for property price changes for new MP's. Also Mortages interest payments must be limited to 75% of the value of the property.
MP's should NOT have the interest of a 5 bed mansion paid for or a
westminster bothole walking distance from the commons!
To allow for new MP's we should set up a goverment mortage system that loans MP's 110% of the average cost of a 2 bed flat withing 30 min travel time of Westminster BUT the fees department ONLY pays 75% of the flats value. the MP must fund the remaining interest AND the repayment of the loan!
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eaton @ 6
So Dave thinks its "Opportunity Knocks" does he?
well he is a spitting image of the young Hughie, that's for sure - how can anyone trust a man with a face like that?
funnily enough, and slightly contra consensus, showing true Leadership would have been to mount a robust defence of his people - perfectly possible based on the "split location fixed allowance in lieu of salary" argument laid out so eloquently by that poster yesterday - Sarantium, I think he was called, something like that, @ number 6 on the relevant blog - but, David being David, he's gone straight in for some cheap populism - trying to catch the wind, as he always does - say or do anything to gain power, Mr Cameron - not Head Clown for nothing, is he?
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Sorry No.29:
It was established that they were allowed second homes to facilitate their work. Few could really suggest this is wrong. Who could afford two homes on a theoretical £64,000, especially when one is in London. Cameron claimed his allowance for that. Nothing dodgy, nothing sinister. He handed in one maintenance bill in 8 years. A legitimate claim in my book, either ways he is paying it back.
Under this system and with the acceptance that their basic pay is inadequate and that they are in the unenviable position of having to use their responsibility granted by constituents to do something about it, I don't really have a problem with them claiming for works and upkeep on the grounds of their homes. Imperfect but I won't blame them. It was an established and unsatisfactory nod and wink to try and drag their salaries into reality.
However, when one improves their home on the public purse and then sells it on before the individual has really made use of the expenditure, when they avoid paying tax on the profit and when they lie about using a relatives address to maximise profit, they they are simply on the take.
This is apparently a 'plague on both [all] your houses' situation, I can't help feeling that all added up the Labour transgressions appear somehow more craven.
How much of this would have occurred if the claims had always been public?
An independent pay review in consultation with the office of a newly appointed Speaker is required to address their rates of pay and to clarify the home allowance rules.
For all those suggesting this is 'human nature', I say no. Many things are human nature but our dignity requires us to suppress or channel them elsewhere. Don't remove politicians from temptation. Demand honesty instead. I want politicians who say 'despite what the rules entitled me, my morals entitled otherwise'. We must break wholesale the expectation that people should behave only in their best interests and the rules should be formed accordingly. It is inhuman in action and irresponsible in result.
btw. That weekly top three 'erroneous claim/paid back' chart sounds like a grand idea.
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Again Brown has missed taking the lead - so now he can only follow. Paying back small sums is actually meaningless. It was the fact that the look them that is the problem. However, at least Cameron is acting. Only the other dat the Labour Parliamentary Labou Party was writing to all Labour MPs saying "they had doe nothing wrong" whilst Brown was gving Blears, Darling et al. "his full confidance". Brown still just does not get it. He needs to act and not defend. He has again completely misjudged the impact of this scandal. He is meant to beable to do this type of stuff but yet again he is making it very clear he cannot.
The sums of money involved are trivia. The actual cost to the public purse of buying Blears a few TVs or keeping an MP in porn film is not much (though any mock Tudor beams are in bad tatse anywhere at any time). The problem is that they took this money.
Their, or rather now Labour MPs, continual wittering "its the rules at fault" - the rules did not make them claim for stuff that is clearly outside the rules. They did that. They wrote down the numbers and signed at the bottom - not "the rules". I downloaded and looked at the rules and in the beginning section the "Fundamental Principles" makes it very clear that the TVs, Porn, Mock Tudor Beams, etc. are not within the rules and just because they got past the Fees Office does not make t right. And still Blears stands there beaming like a Cheshire Cat failing to answer the accusations and just repeating that "She has done nothing wrong" - which is like waving a red rag at a bull.
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#30 Porter
"Did I understand correctly that Cameron is putting some of his MPs to the sword for putting in detailed claims, while himselfclaiming the absolute maximum allowable, but on a single receipt? If so then he really does have no shame at all".
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This allowance is paid to all and has not been a source of the problem regarding MPs expenses; it's an entitlement.
Granted you may think why is this paid to wealthy people but it's not means tested.
There is no way this perk is on the same level as the clearance of the moat, chandeliers, flipping the second home etc.
As I have said before, if you think it's despicable what level of income or assets would you allow it to be paid.
Put another way, it like an employer paying London Weighting.
London Weighting is not means tested whether you're Fred the Shred or Joe Public.
Put yet another way. When GB sincerely presented his £150 per diem allowance. Did this apply to 'poor' MPs, a bit better off MPs or filthy rich MPs? Of course it applied top all of them.
I don't think we can start means testing expenses; it's discriminatory. It should never be a question of he/she has got enough so he can't have an allowance; rather it should be he/she hasn't got enough so should have an allowance.
That way a political career will be open to everyone regardless of their wealth.
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How do you distinguish between any of the Leaders or Parties?
They're all the same and they've ALL got their s'necks in the troff, their pathetic apologies only come because they've been caught. Why does anyone vote at all? Our WHOLE political system is flawed & nothing will ever change. Every ordinary working man knows that.
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41 Grawth
Not heard from You for a while. Hope you're well.
said
"OK, you will never like Cameron or his party, but for all your carping, ask yourself this - what has Gordon Brown done?"
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Well true but can't you see that the "opportunity" point is spot on.
Look at the reaction on here tonight, Grown men are swooning about "Dave the Great Leader". What Dave has done here was as predictable as night follows day I'm afraid, scrabbling for some hypothetical moral high ground that doesn't exist but appeasing the easily impressed. As I said yesterday this is not a party issue but continues to be exploited as such.
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.....Unemployment up to 2.25 million.....
.....the largest level since 1996.....
.....and the largest rise since 1981.....
.....'things can only get better'.....
I know it's off topic but it shouldn't be.
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The current economic climate and the unfortunate way that MPs have shot themselves in the foot by their greedy expense claims obscures the simple fact that MPs are underpaid. A culture has been allowed to develop whereby because it is not politically acceptable to raise salaries, maximising expense claims as a substitute has taken place. We need to ensure that MPs are drawn from the brightest and most experienced people in the country; paying them less than most managers in business and many in the public services does not make sense. Now, before I get digitally lynched for expressing such a viewpoint, I have some conditions to attach to this proposal:
1) MPs may not have any other employment, company directorships etc. whilst they are serving as an MP
2) All new MPs must carry out unpaid work in business or the voluntary sector (i.e. real work, not a "token" management role) for at least a week, possibly two, per year in a sector which reflects their own area of interest (e.g. health, finance, defence) for say their first tow or three years in parliament. As Lord Adonis's recent rail trip showed, real life experience as a user or provider of public services can inform policy for the better. It seems to me that too many MPs are now "career politicians" with little or no experience of the real world.
3) All expenses arising from their work as an MP must be reclaimed from valid receipts. The second homes allowance is minefield so I'll reserve comment until the Committee on Standards in Public Life has come up with a scheme. However any new scheme will have to be modest, proportionate, independently audited and publicly accountable otherwise it will not be acceptable to taxpayers.
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I cannot see myself voting for any of the main parties after this. And yet there is only one set of expenses claims that really matters here - David Cameron's - as he will be the next Prime Minister and has power to hire or fire others in his party or government. Like other MPs, his behaviour betrays his contempt for the electorate - my elderly parents struggle to maintain a house and garden and cannot afford any help as their pension is so small. I help them all I can while the future Prime Minister takes money they have paid in taxes to remove a wisteria from his brickwork. Moreover, his lack of integrity is breathtaking - he did not have to take this money and he could have repaid it at any time before today but he waited, perhaps hoping the claim might not be exposed or perhaps craving the media highlight on his repayment of the money.
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KEEP CALM CHAPS, I'LL JUST QUIETEN DOWN THE BLOODY PUNTERS ...
Here we go ... standard cruise damage limitation and recovery!
Cameron "appalled" ..... Brown "dismayed and shocked" ..... Clegg "apologises". What rank, malodourous cant! What revolting and dishonest hyprocrisy? Are the party leaders actually pretending they didn't know what was going on? Only now has the penny dropped? They've all been caught with their hands in the till along with the other swine. They are just as culpable. In fact, more so.
They could have done something about it years ago. Instead, they (along with very many other MPs) fought tooth and nail to prevent the grubby truth coming out. Don'd insult our intelligence, you spivs! Pleassssse!
My admiration and respect for those MPs who DID press for discovery, as well as the individual who leaked the information - and The Telegraph for showing us what serious journalism is all about. Press on, worthy hacks. The Telegraph action is one of the few rays of hope in this filthy sewer!
I notice that the piggies are still in denial. Speaker (God, what a joke) Martin's appalling behaviour yesterday was a disgrace. The man should be removed immediately. Any further suggestions that the police should investigate the leak must be squashed. If the individual is ever discovered, I trust Her Majesty will at the very least Knight him!
Most importantly, there MUST be an immediate General Election. If not, perhaps an appropriate organisation would kindly accept my services in preparing an adequate stockpile of Molotov cocktains for armed insurrection! I'll be happy to supply the petrol and bottles myself.
I trust tactical voting will destroy as many of the more venal incumbants
in the forthcoming local and European elections. All three traditional parties must receive a severe thrashing. There are empty beer bottles floating down the Thames that are more deserving of our votes.
Hopefully, a new party will emerge over the coming year that may offer a more honest and decent repository for our trust.
God save the Queen. Death to the spivs!
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I always thought that the Labour people would be novices compared to the Tories on the issue of fiddling expenses, and other forms of legalised misappropriation ,todays revelations seem to confirm that view.It would be interesting to find out how many of these Tory grandee cheats voted against the bill to introduce the minimum wage. Cameron appears to have assembled a bunch of professional scroungers as part of his shadow cabinet,a decision that one would expect from a former leading light in the thuggish Bullingdon Club.
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What Cameron has announced is obviously not the long-term solution and he only has the authority to impose regulation on his own Party. However, at least he has understood the central issue which is that these claims, although within the rules, are completely unacceptable for elected representatives and they must be reversed as soon as possible.
It completely contrasts with Brown whose response, let us not forget, was to simply repeat the mantra "these claims are within the rules" and whose big idea for reforming the system was giving MPs an allowance just for turning up. I think Brown's relative silence today shows his authority within his own Party is waning.
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#68 Saga
You are in danger of being the Polly Toynbe of the blogosphere.
I love your posts but don't be bitter
....you are not Polly are you, I am sure we have some celebrity bloggers?
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Eatonrifle wrote @ 6:
So Dave thinks its "opportunity Knocks" does he,
No doubt he "means it most sincerely folks, he really does"
So you of course would have preferred him to do nothing. Of course you
would. If I were you I'd keep quiet. You're making a fool of yourself.
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#44 Saga
re the LIBDEMS and the following 3 big and burning issues ...
1. IRAQ WAR
... only party to oppose it
2. EXPENSES
... quite a bit cleaner than the other 2 (yes?)
3. ECONOMY
... Cable rated way ahead of Osborne or Brown
should reap an electoral benefit, shouldn't they? - quite a large one too, one would have thought - if they don't do extremely well next time, then what on earth's the point in being right?
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Absolutely right on all three points; cannot disagree.
I also agree that they will reap an electoral benefit.
By this time next June, the Lib Dems will be officially installed as the main Opposition Party.
Gordon's successor will sit far down on the left hand side of Nick Clegg in the newly arranged House of Commons with Plaid Cymru and the Irish lot behind him.
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It would interesting to see if MPs continue to address each other as the Right Honorable member for... or if some of them will be addressed as the Right Dis-Honorable member for... or even the Right Horrible member for...
To me the most appaling thing about this whole fiasco is their blatancy in bending the rules and totally ignoring the spirt and they tried very hard to keep it a secret from us. In any other occupation they would have been fired or arrested. Is there an equivalent to Nick Freeman,the celebrities favorite lawyer, at Parliament?
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68 Sagamix
Have to disagree with you there. Yes true leadership is sometimes backing up your team in adversity. However it is also essential to lay down the law and if wrongs have been done, in or outside of the rules, action has to be taken, even if not too popular with the troops. It will be interesting to see who if any of the Tory MPs will lose the whip by refusing to comply with the directive. I suspect no too many.
I doubt that Gordon Brown has the same authority with his MPs, hence him sending M/s Harman to to the press to announce a revue by committee.
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6. At 6:41pm on 12 May 2009, Eatonrifle wrote:
So Dave thinks its "opportunity Knocks" does he,
No doubt he "means it most sincerely folks, he really does"
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As opposed to the inaction of Gordon Brown, true leader of the "Do Nothing" party.
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Individuals amy or may not see David Cameron as a potential and suitable Prime Minister, but it is hard to avoid recognising that his performance this afternoon was masterly. Although his available options were perhaps somewhat limited I think he went as far as he could short of withdrawing the party whip from the worst offenders.
Be he good or bad as a Prime Minister (and that is something only time will tell) his political instincts were clearly more in tune with the public mood than Gordon Brown's; GB seems to have virtually gone into hiding on this matter (surprise!) and only emerged today to announce some crackpot scheme for police officers to walk people home at night. (So much for "Tough on Crime..." etc) Brown had a wonderful opportunity to outflank the Conservatives on the subject of expenses and allowances, but appears to have lacked the strength of character to tackle his errant cabinet subordinates.
Whether Cameron has done enough to stem any loss of support from the electorate is something that will only emerge as time passes, but I feel that Brown's vacillation over dealing with manifestly discreditable conduct from his accolytes can only do him more damage. He has probably done more harm to himself than Cameron could ever have hoped for.
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PMQ's tomorrow should be interesting......
i see the PM "supports the speaker".... two lame ducks leaning on each other for support.
Ok so the DC's make them pay it back policy is not perfect but it is a hundred times better that Harman's committee (when in trouble form a committee, kicks the problem into the long grass...)
Next move is to look at the "fraudulent claims" as oppose to the "honest mistake".. and call in the fraud squad...lets see some of these crooks in handcuffs being sent to prison for conspiracy to defraud.
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At last.....the opposition taking a huge scandal by the scruff of the neck and showing the Brown mob in their true colours....time for a general election.....come on the 'blues'.....
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Makes Brown and Labour look the worst of the scroungers by a long way.
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Gordon Brown seems to be doing his infamous MacAvity trick again ... where is he?
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68:
True to form you ape rifle and prove yourself to be just as foolish!
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68, Hi Saga
Agree the Sanatarium (whatever) post at 6 yesterday was the highlight of yesterdays blog. Very thoughtful and considered, truly unusual on here.
I truly want to stay non-patisan on this, as I really don't see the expenses thing as a party issue, but its difficult when you see the oh so obvious grasping for some party advantsge by Cam, you just knew this would happen. I was hoping forlornly that they would all take a step back for a few days and go for some consensus on how to respond and make the inevitable changes but the Populist Bandwagon was just too tempting.
The rearguard action is getting a bit draining eh and we're supposed to be the organised Trolling mchine of the Labour Party. What's the ratio of Clowns to us, must be 20/1 , what are the Polls, 2/1? Strange that.
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I laughed my socks off with this; it made Gordon Brown and the rest of labour look like a bunch of crooks who have no understanding of reality.
My guess is that Brown is throwing a lot of phones and printers at people right now, because Cameron made him look like a completely unrepentant crook that still wants to fleece the electorate for every penny he can get.
Cameron also made the speaker look like a villain because Cameron's just going right over the speaker's head with an attitude of "you're doing nothing, so we're going to do it for you, and we're going to do it the right way, not the labour troughing way."
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That's right! No other measure than the sacking, criminally prosecuting and repayment of all taxpayers money corrective measures will be sufficient to apeace the electorates outrage and anger.
This is because what is really at stake here is nothing more and nothing less than our belief in democracy.
Get rid off all charlatans and fraudsters passing themselves as MPs.
Even if it means that there will be maybe one or two MPs left standing leading with common decency, good sound judgement, morals, ethics, conduct, discipline and so on.
We the electorate do not want or need mobsters and fraudulent so called MPs!
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Just heard that Hazel Blears in handing back thirteen thousand quid to the taxman for previously undisclosed CGT liability. Here words on the BBC Radio 4 Nine O'clock News a few minutes ago were of the extreme weasel variety.
None of what you said, Pet, is true. You've been caught thieving and forced to hand back the loot. You're not sorry for anything - apart from being caught. Off you go, you ghastly little dwarf chav. Get yourself a more appropriate job. What about shelf stacking at Tesco? You can't do too much damage there. No-one's going to vote for you again as an MP! Oh, the awfulness of you. Language is not enough.
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This is just the tip of a huge iceberg. This gravy train is not just for MPs.
Imagine all the "necessary" expenses going to top civil servants, quangoes, special advisors etc...
When Alistair Darling goes looking for £5 billion of efficiency savings, the first opportunity he can find is right under his nose!
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At last someone with integrity and the understanding that the stables need to be cleaned out . Thank you Dave Cameron ! I was wavering, but now I think I will vote Conservative for a better Britain.
The icing on the cake would of course be confirmation that the Tories actually do want to withdraw from the odious apparatus of the Brussels regime, but you can't have everything at once.
The next thing to do is get rid of that silly Speaker of the Commons Michael Martin - he's no Betty Boothroyd or William Lenthall.
Vote Tory, Vote Tory
Ps - Can't wait to duel with all of those ridiculous Labour supporters, who justify the worst government in post war history (worse than the Callaghan or Eden govts combined!). Come on!
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WE @ 54
Hopefully Labour will end up as a fringe party like UKIP, or the Greens
that is not quite what I have in mind, Mark
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Concentrate the minds of our political leaders eh?
Did it escape your notice that the unemployment figures reached 2.2million today and that the quarterly increase was the fastest since 1981 ?
Makes you wonder what the priorities are here ? The biggest story is the greed of 600+ MP's - not the plight of 2.2m unemployed - or am I missing something ?
Or is the public disgust at expenses really a venting over the failure to manage the economy or hold the government to account ?
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I am not a politician but follow politics and found that tellivising PMQ's was one of the first and most influential steps forward to opening up how politicians work in the debating chamber.
There are a few factors that seem to be generally overlooked when "expences" are discussed:-
1. It is fair that an MP should be able to claim expences to attend parliament (in the same way as if an employee of any company is sent to a different town to work during the weeek he should receive the costs of travel and accomodation back so long as it is the most efficient return /nett expence
2. If a second home is actually cheaper than hotel costs then this should be allowed however WHO ACTUALY CHECKS THESE THINGS?
3. Second homes only realy became an issue decades ago when parliament sat late into the evening or even till the early hours and thus public transport (and even taxi's) were not available at the end of a sitting thus in order to stop MP's sleeping on the floors of the houses claims for second homes were accepted.
4. about 15 years ago the late night sittings were virtually extinguished (partly to encourage attendance by female MP's.) and the attendance of MP's in London has been made easier by rescheduling PMQ's etc. Most MP's are in their constituencies from Thurs eve till Mondayso overnight stays in London should only be for 3 nights and about 40 weeks a year (now are hotel bills are more than mort interest bills? in a year?)
5. How far do the expences go? does it include staff /personal secretary ? if so how much are MP's wives (when employed by an MP and thus staying at the same place) paying towards the "expences"?(if any?)
6. WHY ARE THE GOVT OFFICES WHO CONTROL PAYMENTS NOT DOING THEIR JOB AND ADMINISTERING THE RULES PROPERLY AND IN THE MANNOR THEY WERE INTENDED?
7. As a second home are all expences claimed excluded from calculations for Capital Gains?
8. Possibly it is now time for MP's to be required to have a home IN THEIR CONSTITUENCY -this should stop MP's claiming expences to get to their costituencies from homes miles away!! (As some MP's represent London areas, and cannot claim second homes, maybe we can exempt them from homes in the constituency) [Look at the ballot papers for declared homes at the next election -may even create a bigger turnout!!]
9. Where do allowances stop? and expences begin?
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#68 Saga
"true Leadership would have been to mount a robust defence of his people"
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True leadership does not defend the indefensible. It defines the difference between the good and the bad and knows the difference; not treating them as one and the same.
True leadership defines the way ahead and dictates that only the good need fall into line; everyone else can either change or leave or be fired.
True leadership is being prepared to take a risk. Some may call it 'cheap populism' as you do, but if the Tories don't like it they can always throw DC on the dung heap; it's much easier for a Tory leader to be toppled than it is for the delirious leader of Spew Labour.
There are many other qualities attributed to leadership but I have only listed three of them here.
The 'Clown' has shown all three.
As for Gordon?
Hmmm!
Not looking good.
I better go and find some other leadership qualities he may be eligible for.
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It is clear from today's actions that David Cameron is now leading the country.
Hopefully very soon we can prise fat-boy-Brown's fingers from the levers of government so that Cameron can really get to grips with getting the UK back on it's feet again.
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Blears to hand over cash equivalent of CGT avoided in property sales
So even though they have done no wrong they are now flinging back the tainted money
Clegg has announced paybacks for the Libdems tomorrow if they can't be explained
DC has set the agenda and now everyone is playing catch up
At this rate we'll have enough for a bail out.
Now Mr Brown, about that cleaner's bill
...and could you have a word with the Homes Secretary? Get it all back and that'll do nicely
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In due course Sir Christopher Kelly will give advice for a new system of expenses/ allowances. Past abuses, however much 'within the rules' need to be dealt with by any or any combination of party leaders, the police and the Inland Revenue. However, looking ahead, at this moment of time, it seems we have the perfect system for a 'clean' future ...ie MPs claim as they see fit within the current guidelines and we get to know what they claim for and thus are able to asssess their judgement as to what's reasonable, necessary etc. This could be far more informative as to the calibre of person than any election leaflet.
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Reassuring to see one gets a better class of expenses claim from a Tory!
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It's the saga/rifle love in everyone. Hallelujah!
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#92:
The concentration of anti Brown bloggers on here is just a small indication of what is going to happen at The General Election old son. It will be total wipe out for your man Gordon Brown. Don't be fooled by the polls!
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well the plane fact of the matter is that people who become mp's slowly turn into greedy self obsessed animals and become sadly for us the voters nothing more than a joke, an unfunny joke at that.
with unemployment reaching 2 million plus in this country how can these overpaid fools expect to live like royalty without repocussion.
why are they paid when they can claim over 2thousand pounds a month for food etc, greed pure and simple thus they need chopping down and hauling out of westminster before they bleed the nation dry.
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It was interesting to hear Gordon Brown calling being an MP a profession.
It is of course no such thing well until many of the now MP's made it that way.
Many have known nothing else other than politics,choosing a party at university or even earlier, they have worked there way through researcher jobs,time at party HQ ,MP's staff until if thought well enough of and have attracted the right backing they will be granted a safe or not so safe seat so they have already taken large handouts from the public purse before they get to office..
This has left us with a Parliament that is no longer a representation of the people but a self serving club.Can we change this ???
Yes i think we can but it would require MP's to make changes to the rules that they have written over how you apply to become an MP,I would like to see you only being able to apply as an MP after living in the constituency for lets say a minimum 10 years you can then at least claim to know something about the area you wish to represent rather than being gifted a safe seat.Of course i am over simplifying it but i see no reason why interested people should not have served on a local council in the area for at least one term.That to a certain extent would stop the feeling of the electorate that we have no choice in who we get because the major parties pick who will represent us.
Now will the MP's make changes ??? i very much doubt it they after all write the rules !!!
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Nick:
From unthinkable to unavoidable
Yes, It is going to be a very interesting story regarding the on-going season of expenses in the British Political System....
~Dennis Junior~
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Also , whilst I'm on my high horse , just watched the clash between beeb presenter Carrie Gracie and Lord Foulkes. Good on you Carrie - I would rather pay my fee to the Beeb for your 92k a year than have to spend any money on you Foulkes !! We need more journalists like you !
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#73 Eaton
"Well true but can't you see that the "opportunity" point is spot on".
=========
Eaton, you're right. It is spot on.
When there is crisis, opportunity presents itself.
In the Chinese language, the word for crisis and opportunity is the same.
You're absolutely spot on.
DC is not being hailed as 'Dave the Great' even though it does seem that you and bloggers of your ilk somehow sound as if you have let down by your leadership or should that be lack of leadership.
What DC has done today is a start; it does not mean that this debacle is over. So long as it continues in this vein and other damaging facts do not exist, then this is a step forward. It could also be another 'opportunity' to clean up a lot of the mess this country is in.
On the other hand, Dave could go the way of Gordon, and then we'll have to wait for the next great hope.
PS Why has no one mentioned the greedy couple that is Balls and Cooper? Now that would be an opportunity.
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Slightly confused here as isn't it the Tories that are supposed to be sleezy and on the take? We all expect that so in many respects todays Telegraph outings were not really news more like dog bites man.
But New Labour were going to be whiter than white, promising an end to Tory sleeze, a new dawn of honest politicians. Oh how we all sang "Things can only get better".
This is what really hurts - the promises that have been brocken is what will be remembered. A chance to change the face of politics for the good wasted. Thanks Tony. Thanks Gordon.
Things can only get better......they probably can now!!!
Whiter than white? Nah, Browner than Brown I'm afraid.
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For the benefit of #44. Sagamix.
1. The SNP opposed the war in Iraq.
2. The Greens opposed the war in Iraq.
3. The SSP opposed the war in Iraq.
4. Plaid Cymru opposed the war in Iraq.
5. Sinn Fein opposed the war in Iraq.
6. The BNP opposed the war in Iraq.
The Fib Dumbs op-sup-op-sup-opposed the war in Iraq, before supporting it once the first bombs fell.
Also have a goggle for Nicol Stephen and his housing fraud.
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finally @ 101
you're wrong, DC is following not leading
see that car zooming through the village at 50 mph? ... that's public opinion
and see that little dog chasing crazily after it? ... that's DC ... that's David Cameron, that is
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76. At 8:45pm on 12 May 2009, beardancingintherain wrote:
I cannot see myself voting for any of the main parties after this. And yet there is only one set of expenses claims that really matters here - David Cameron's - as he will be the next Prime Minister and has power to hire or fire others in his party or government. Like other MPs, his behaviour betrays his contempt for the electorate - my elderly parents struggle to maintain a house and garden and cannot afford any help as their pension is so small. I help them all I can while the future Prime Minister takes money they have paid in taxes to remove a wisteria from his brickwork. Moreover, his lack of integrity is breathtaking - he did not have to take this money and he could have repaid it at any time before today but he waited, perhaps hoping the claim might not be exposed or perhaps craving the media highlight on his repayment of the money
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Are you serious? So because you can't stand Cameron you think it is OK to conveniently forget Brown's £7k cleaner for his 3rd home. Jacqui Smith's £120k for her sister's house or McNulty's £70k for his parents. But no far more important than this is £680 for Cameron's wisteria.
I know most people on here have a bias of one sort or another, but your comments above border on ridiculous.
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All the talk at the moment are the MP's who claimed for things that they should not have, but no one is mentioning the people who approved all of the costs in the first place.
People should be bringing these people to task, and they should be sacked.
Where were the whistle-blowers, or were these people in on the claims as well??
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This whole expenses 'scandal' is a result of the typical British hypocrisy we display as a nation. For some reason, I think mean-minded class envy, we are unable to pay our MPs an appropriate salary. This means that for years they have had the nod to pad out their allowances as a means of supplementing their inadequate salary. (Anmd I am afraid if you look at comparables that 64K IS totally inadequate.) Being a cross-section of society, and not a bunch of super-saints, some MPs play the system more and some less.
What are we so shocked about? Let's just pay them a decent salary and stop demanding moral behaviour of them which we would be unable to deliver ourselves.
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Picture this "April 2010" General Election looming in three week's.
Countless actions and counteractions on "SLEAZE" Many Independents running on the sleaze issue.
Nice and sleazie does it evey time!
I think the political parties should think very hard about the candidates
they put forward for the forthcoming election.(general)? just returning the loot may not save them the boot!.
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I love the chippiness of the left, so refreshing to see that nothing changes.
Because the tories are taking flak for fixing tennis courts or moats it is somehow worse than good old fashioned left wing straight cash in the pocket.
4k for a tennis court is far worse than £120k for a house Jacqui Smith never stayed in because, well it's a tennis court isn't it and he's a toff isn't he. 700quid for removing a wisteria is far worse than McNulty's 70k on his parent's house because, snigger, it's a wisteria and only posh people have plants like that.
Class warfare is alive and well you'll be glad to hear, just don't start me on Prescott's utterly and solely necessary and down to earth Mock Tudor Beams. Thank god for the working class and their morals. Wouldn't catch the son of the soil with his hand in the till with something poncey like a tennis court....no it would be solid working class croquet for prezza.
However you choose to spell hypocrisy, it is still the preserve of the left wing, do as we say, not as we do, as we are your masters now. (But not for long eh chaps?)
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The thing that makes David Cameron look acceptable (even good in some lights) is the comparison with the appalling Gordon Brown. That does not make him good in real terms - just less bad!!
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sicilian @ 107
we'll see, won't we? - the turbulence could have interesting ramifications - I'm still predicting a comfortable Clown majority but a hung parliament is looking less remote now (hopefully with LibDem rather than one of the wacko parties holding the BoP) - strangely enough, it could be that Labour's prospects are a little better than they were a week ago
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nick .. just watched your interview with that dispicable utterly incompetant excuse for a PM, you seem to have started off ok ish, then you did a complete gotrdon brown and bottled it at the end.. WTF... gordonbrown has troughed he claimed over £6000 for cleaning... you know cleaning a flat that is owned by his wife, money paid to his brother..has the cleaner been verified and interviewed, because i for one will not take the word of gordon brown his brother or his sister in law.. perhaps the bbc can get out in their chopper ooopps our chopper DO A BIT OF SEARCHING, INVESTIGATING, FACT FINDING. and even if it is verified it is still troughing , WHY? BECAUSE HE HAS HAD GRACE AND FAVOUR ACCOMODATION FOR THE PAST 12 YEARS.
YOU ARE AN UTTER DISGRACE NICK ROBINSON.
god i am so damned angry, you did get one thing right he is only giving this interview because of David Cameron.
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Sicilian,
Evening my teacher friend.
said
"If I were you I'd keep quiet. You're making a fool of yourself."
and
"It's the saga/rifle love in everyone. Hallelujah!"
=====
a little tetchy tonight Sicilian, but whatever works for you.
You know when I said at 73 that Dave was simply "appeasing the easily impressed" I didn't mean you.... really....unless the cap fits of course?
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They may well be paying back dubious expenses, but are they paying interest on the money they owe us?
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There are many others who have to work at similar distances from home to MP's (I have been one in the past) and the Inland Revenue would prosecute for some of the expenses being claimed by MP's. Sure, I accept that they do have additional costs from working in London as well as their Constituency but most normal people with distance jobs have to absorb these costs from their salary. MP's should feel the same pain as those they represent.
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#111:
Sorry about that. The comments of saga and rifle tipped me over the edge and I had an abusive moment. Understandable in the circumstances! Surely Brown doesn't have an identity on here!
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My opinion is perfectly summed up by Stephen Fry on the bbc homepage. Why should we be shocked when these self-seeking talentless halfwits stuff their own nests when no-one is looking. Everyone screams in mock horror when their true natures are revealed by the charging of dog food to the exchequer. Meanwhile there is pure silence when they vote for an oil war that results in the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent children. Depleted uranium shells on expenses anyone?
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#116:
Meanwhile Gordon Brown has been run over by the same car you speak of. He has sent Harriet Harman out to do his dirty work but she also has beenn caught in the headlights saying too little too late!
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THE EVACUATION OF HIERONYMUS PRESCOTT ...
In the furore over MPs' expenses it is a comfort to reflect on the serenity that must now rule in at least one political household. That is the castelleted and tudor feature enhanced demi-mansion of he who may be destined to become a political metaphor for this decade.
I speak of one Hieronymus Prescott, the distinguished former deputy prime minister. His timely exit from public affairs will no doubt ensure he keeps his own share of the loot. And he may reflect at number twosey, as his gigantic buttocks crush yet another reinforced oak loo seat, that he survived.
I see him now in my mind's eye, his vast pink bulk asquat the throne in the downstairs 'yer tis like the demon in Bosch's Heaven and Hell consuming and evacuating simultaneously.
As the pleasurable sensation of reduced bowel pressure awakens the delightful prospect of more of Mrs P's home cooking he draws deeply on a fine Havana, tipping the ash into one of his fine collection of P and O ashtrays.
Exhaling the exquisite narcotic smoke, he glances up at the azure bend sinister of the Prescott coat of arms emblazoned upon the wall above him - and reflects that, after all, life hasn't been too bad. If only he could be sure he'd used the right end of the croquet mallet that afternoon.
Beyond the confines of the water closet, he discerns the homely humming of a chipper Mrs P. as she checks the pockets of his jacket for prophalactics and suspicious receipts. Oh God, NO. Not now!
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How does a gravy-train navigate a moat?
The more amusing aspect of all this is that the Conservative applicants for a taxpayer handout seem to be seeking the payment of an unexpected or very big invoice in the management of their country estates. However, the Labour applicants seem anxious to accumulate cash and cash-able assets as fast as possible. It is the upper classes versus the lower middle-class writ large. Who says class does not matter?
I think the only way to tackle it is to stop calling these payments `expenses'. They should be called `welfare handouts' with all the moral opprobium that accompanies such a term as it implies a chronic inability to manage your affairs.
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#125:
I've never actually been impressed by your hero Gordon Brown but whatever floats your boat I suppose.
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#116 Saga
See that lifeless thing in the middle of the road? That's Gordon and he's just been run over by public opinion and being left behind by Cameron
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From unthinkable to unavoidable - continued ...
It doesn't stop here - how about giving us proper democracy - e.g. making sure every vote counts would be a good start (e.g. proportional representation) ... or will Poweromics*, applied by the two main parties, keep stopping us from having a proper democracy fit for the 21st century?
We only get a vote in a general election once every five years, and only a very small minority of votes (in MARGINAL CONSTITUENCIES) actually make a difference to who gets in Government anyway (which is why they keep changing the boundaries)!
Poweromics* is everywhere and must be replaced (see Poweromics blog at http://poweromics.blogspot.com). This problem is just starting to be exposed - and has not been addressed yet.
(e.g. Do Chameleons change their DNA when they change color)?
David Clift, a Future 500 Leader
* Poweromics = People use position and power for their own personal gain, based on poor moral values, self interest and greed.
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PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE ... there's no need to panic.
After all, if there is mass tactical voting at the next election and everyone votes in the extreme left or extreme right or the Monster Raving Loonies or whoever, there's no need to fear.
After all, if parliament and democracy is at risk of going down the Suwannee, then I'm sure we'll be able to rely on the good old bankers and financiers to 'bail it out' for the greater good of the nation.
(And they do 'owe us one', don't they?)
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"braveSouter wrote:
I always thought that the Labour people would be novices compared to the Tories on the issue of fiddling expenses, and other forms of legalised misappropriation ,todays revelations seem to confirm that view"
I am not trying to defend the Tories or any other party on this. However, my understanding that each MP can claim up to about £24k in second house expenses.
In my opinion there is no difference between spending £7000 on cleaning your moat and £7000 on cleaning the house. Personally I don't think that either should be allowed under expense claims but I also don't understand why we should be expected to buy white goods for MPs.
The left-wingers will be lapping up the fact that the "toffs" have moats but that misses the point - a working class MP spending their entire allowance on new TVs is troughing it just as much as a "toff" MP who spends their allowance on re-laying their personal golf course.
The second home allowance seems to be a MP equivalent of child benefit - some spend theirs on fags and Sky packages, others are doing up the house and going on holiday but there are probably many who actually use it for the purpose it is there for.
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128 Sicilian
You mean there was more abuse at 111???
I think I asked you before Sicilian, What do you wan't on here just Tory Views?
Its almost that anyway.
Surprising from a Teacher that a hint of "bullying" can be detected!!
Be careful or I might ask you to stand in a corner with the pointy hat on.
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FRED the SHRED & his GANG had the LAST laugh anyway.
THE POLITICIANS JUST GOT THE SCRAPS!
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It does worry me how the media savvy webcameron can so easily influence people by using shallow statements. Like Brown's actions on the Sir Fred Goodwins pension, Cameron can do very little to discipline the Tory party members that have manipulated their allowances.
Oh Good !!!. Cameron has shown his first opportunity of leadership by taking action on something that he knows will really have no affect on the next election in 18 months time. I will remind any journalist, including Tory supporter Nick Robinson, to question Cameron in 18 months' time about the discipline he will implemented in this party.
Unfortunately, and to the benefit of Cameron and Osbourne, this issue is distracting the minds of the people that vote. The real issue that needs to be sorted out is the Global economy - stupid, and I'm still waiting to know what webcameron will do about it.
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Dear Nick,
Your reporting is usually excellent however must take issue with you on MPs expenses....the/your reporting of...
Vitally no one including yourself has put the scale of the problem into context ie. what is the overall estimated cost of the questionable expenses? This is a vital piece of the information we require to make a rounded judgement of the situation. This would also allow us to make comparison with the real issues such as the 'War on Terror'(Iraq branch) which continues to cost us millions a day.
It is also evident, as substantiated by such disparate characters as Lord Foulkes v BBC News presenter Carrie Gracie & Stephen Fry on Newsnight, that journalists and particularly publicly funded journalists such as yourself are paid far in excess of an MP's salary even allowing for some of their questionable expenses.
In other words the bigger question how much are MPs worth in terms of the benefit they give to society v journalists for example has not been examined in any great detail.
Have a look at this and perhaps we can then decide how bad the problem really is or perhaps as I suspect put this down as a sensationalist diversion from the real issues that face us.
Yours sincerely
G
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Hazel Blears still doesn't get it does she. A few months back it was having cabinet papers with scribbled comments clearly visible to photographers outside Downing Street. Tonight in saying she is paying back HMRC, she brandishes a cheque with her account details and signature directly to the BBC News camera.
Gift on a plate to Identity Fraudsters, this is just carelessness of the highest order, will she never learn?
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OK just watched news at 10 i'll retract a tad my critisimn of you Nick.
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Before we get too excited about bringing back 'whiter than white' independent candidates such as Martin Bell, it is sobering to recall that Bell only got his chance in the first place because ... Alastair Campbell fixed it up i.e. ensured that Labour and the Lib-Dems did not put up a candidate against Bell as he (Bell) ran on an anti-sleaze ticket against the Tory Neil Hamilton.
Nevertheless, I am still hoping that the penny has finally dropped for the English voters and that they will give independents and small parties a chance.
We English have to break the political cartel operated by the 'big three' parties, who hopefully, are about to become much smaller themselves.
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As we brace ourselves for The Lib Dem expenses revelations tomorrow morning Gordon Brown attempts to leapfrog David Cameron by saying that he has been in conversation about rules changes for days and Hazel Blears waves a cheque in the air to prove that she is contrite. His suggestions for change virtually mirror those of David Cameron earlier in the day. Words fail me. This is all just a political damage limitation game and all are culpable.
Gordon Brown's responses to Nick predicated by the words 'I'm sorry Nick ................................. ' just don't wash. Saga and rifle. I would be interested to hear your reaction to The P.M.'s words. Is he in your judgement just as insincere as you paint David Cameron to be?
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#119 davebergie wrote:
For some reason, I think mean-minded class envy, we are unable to pay our MPs an appropriate salary.
I agree entirely, but no doubt you will have the class warriors down on your head. The back-bench salary of 64,000 (I think) is quite small. I remember looking at comparable figures for other legislatures and most are far more, though I don't have them to hand now.
I started off being outraged by MPs expenses, and to some extent still am, but having read the mean-spirited, vindictive, and unbalanced comments on this blog my attitude has started to change.
I expect the system to change quickly in the light of legitimate public anger. We should welcome this, and the fact that MPs are now going to pay back unreasonable expenses. I see no useful purpose in taking this any further.
The real news story of today is that unemployment increased by a record 250,000, but here we all are, whipped up in a frenzy of moral indignation.
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All you can really say is that virtually everyone is in this life is in it for their own interest, self aggrandisement and self preservation. If you think that politicians became M.P.s just to change things then please think again. It's all about Number one!
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Oh and this thing about Hazel Blears holding up a cheque payable to Inland Revenue for the CGT on her London flat.
Firstly, she surely MUST actually owe them that money, because IR wouldn't take it from her if she didn't. So, what I'm saying here is, surely she would only have written the cheque if IR agree there is a liability on her part for that amount of CGT.
Therefore, the interesting point is, if she has avoided paying them CGT that was due, will she be penalised by IR? And if not, why not?
I'm damn sure that if I didn't pay CGT on a property, they'd charge me - at minimum - penalty interest, if not a fine, if not worse. Perhaps she be prosecuted for tax avoidance?
Or are MPs exempt from such actions?
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You say, As a result, some Tory M.Ps. are writing some very large cheques. Is it just a symptom of your bias or are you behind with the news?
I have read that a female Labour M.P., is writing a very large cheque as a repayment to the Fees Office. No doubt there will be some gainsayers that may attempt to explain this.
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"derekbarker wrote:
Picture this "April 2010" General Election looming in three week's.
Countless actions and counteractions on "SLEAZE" Many Independents running on the sleaze issue."
The problem with that would be how can we trust the Independents not to be as greedy as the people that they are replacing. At least party politics is supposed to keep the MPs in line
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44. At 7:48pm on 12 May 2009, sagamix wrote:
re the LIBDEMS and the following 3 big and burning issues ...
1. IRAQ WAR
... only party to oppose it
2. EXPENSES
... quite a bit cleaner than the other 2 (yes?)
3. ECONOMY
... Cable rated way ahead of Osborne or Brown
should reap an electoral benefit, shouldn't they? - quite a large one too, one would have thought - if they don't do extremely well next time, then what on earth's the point in being right?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Point 1 - agreed
Point 2. We don't know yet
Can't knock point 3 Saga but you didn't mention their aim to blight the UK's green and pleasant land with wind farms nor their very strong Federal Europe ambitions.
Therefore no vote from me.
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Dear Nick,
I have just witnessed Hazel Bleers announce she will pay back the money owed for Capitol Gains.
Not once did she appologise for the bad taste it has left in the mouths of the general public. Not once did she seem anyway sorry for the hurt and angy she and her light fingered chums has caused. Not once did she do anything to show anything other than someone just been busted for FRAUD!
She is only doing this to appear to be doing the right thing.
Roll on June, roll on the bloodbath, roll on 2010.
They are all crooks.
Xxxx
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I am glad I do not spend a lot of time on this {politics}.
To witness these politicans lining up to wave cheques and say we're going to pay back ££££ is very unedifying indeed.
Being blunt, I'd have far more respect for them if they metaphorically said 'up yours, ok, we have been rumbled so now we're going to large it with the expenses, pensions and anything else we can think of until the day we are ejected by you lot'.
Somewhat perversely, there would be an intrinsic honesty and consistency in that approach.
It is far too late for cheque waving stunts.
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Nick, I've just watched You with Brown on the 11.00pm news. It was excrutiating and cring making. Brown is now, not just running to catch up, he's positively got a rocket up his backside. But its no use "He's a born Loser". Just like the other jock, "Gorbels Mick",what a dumb and ignorant git he is. How did he ever get such an intelectual position as shop steward. If you continue to go along with Brown's dialog, as you did this evening. For he must have favored you and summond you, for the private interview you were given. You are going to loose all the credability and goodwill you have so painstakingly built up with your public.
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why can't MP's have thier expenses given to them like most people do? A set amouth per day. Why do they get their council tax, mortages etc paid. They became MP's, lets stop this free loading. Enough is enough.
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92. At 8:59pm on 12 May 2009, Eatonrifle wrote:
68, Hi Saga
Agree the Sanatarium (whatever) post at 6 yesterday was the highlight of yesterdays blog. Very thoughtful and considered, truly unusual on here.
I truly want to stay non-patisan on this, as I really don't see the expenses thing as a party issue, but its difficult when you see the oh so obvious grasping for some party advantsge by Cam, you just knew this would happen. I was hoping forlornly that they would all take a step back for a few days and go for some consensus on how to respond and make the inevitable changes but the Populist Bandwagon was just too tempting.
===
Yes, consensus like pre-empting the enquiry you set up yourself and pre-empting a meeting of all three party leaders by going gurning on Youtube. That sort of consensus do you mean?
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Nick,
Your expenses????
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another thing nick..gordon b5roewn going on about getting bsck trust, reforming expenses snot gobble snot gobble.. WHY is he still backing that deplorable speaker.. dosent add up does it nick..???? ask him about that.
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Well done Cameron to steal the march on Brown. What bothers me is why MPs should be allowed to set their own pay and conditions. No wonder they struggled hard to hide the contents of their expense claims from us. The sheer effort and ingenuity they have displayed for this task is truely impressive and shows they have some talent, and time on their hands.
What I fail to understand is why we have to pay for their choice of house, tv, furniture, garden, etc.
It is now apparent that we are subsidising MPs from all parties to live a life that they would otherwise be unable to afford. They are paid at a level at which there is no shortage of applicants. Many MPs have time for outside interests and other jobs.
What bohers me is I think they still don't get it.
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It's true that we tend to see what we want to see but this whole expenses row is Absolutely ridiculous Stephen fry and Lord Foulkes are both right in criticising journalists for undermining our political system to the benefit of extreme parties. These expenses are minor details are you really surprised that conservative mps were claiming for their swimming pools?
I wish the media would concentrate on real issues and stop trivializing everything. Nick Robinson seems to be the master at this.What is such a shame is that for the next week politicians are all going to try and claim the moral high ground by paying back some of their expenses! Cameron has begun in his typical fashion..and Blears has succombed to our derogatory media. Let's sort this mess up and start talking about real politics! Unfortunately the media will portray my view as the minority to keep the story going.........
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re: 118 markc3108
"All the talk at the moment are the MP's who claimed for things that they should not have, but no one is mentioning the people who approved all of the costs in the first place.
People should be bringing these people to task, and they should be sacked.
Where were the whistle-blowers, or were these people in on the claims as well??"
If you're looking for the people who vetted the claims, then you're wasting your time; it was the same people who made the claims; MPs.
The equivalent setup in the private sector would be:
I make up my own tax rules, then I fill in my tax return, then I send my tax return to myself for me to vet. If I found that I've broken the rules then I take myself to court and I am the judge/jury as well as acting as the prosecution and defence. If I find myself guilty then, and only then, do I pay some of the money (an amount which I decide) to the tax man.
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148. At 10:22pm on 12 May 2009, Sutara wrote:
Oh and this thing about Hazel Blears holding up a cheque payable to Inland Revenue for the CGT on her London flat.
Firstly, she surely MUST actually owe them that money, because IR wouldn't take it from her if she didn't.
===
Oh yes they would! If anybody wants to send HMRC more than their required amount of tax they are more than happy to accept it.
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#116 Saga
"you're wrong, DC is following not leading
see that car zooming through the village at 50 mph? ... that's public opinion
and see that little dog chasing crazily after it? ... that's DC ... that's David Cameron, that is"
==========
I first thought you were going to say that that the speeding car was Hazel Blears. Why? Because yeasterday she proclaimed her innocence, today she's owned up, and tonight she has pleaded guilty and paid a speeding fine for £13,000. Didn't say sorry though.
I then thought the speeding car must have been Gordon Brown, but no, he's the dust cloud in the distance behind the car and the dog; apparently sat nav's not working and he's driving all over the place with no clear direction. From time to time he gets out of the vehicle but gets caught in the oncoming traffic's headlights. Gets back in the car, looks for the map which is out of date. Desperate he searches in the dash board and scrabbles around for a compass, a moral one as it happens. It's broken and he regrets the past when he became so angry that he hurled it into the ground and all because he was so angry for being part of the chasing pack. He sets off again, making up the directions as he goes, lurching here, lurching there, but not getting anywhere.
Meanwhile in the commentator's boxe, well done to Nick for sticking up to Gordon Brown tonight and repeatedly telling him that he only reacted to DC's statement currently running second in Saga's Wacky Races.
Also well done Nick for following up Gordon Brown's erroeous claim that he has all party agreement when he hasn't.
Well Saga, perhaps it's time for a stewards' enquiry.
In case you didn't know it Gordon's on a one lap strategy and he continues to drive round and round in circles. Unfortunately for him, there's not enough fuel in the tank. His car will be called in before June 2010 and even more unfortunately for him, his scrappage scheme will not save him either or so we are led to believe.
PS And Nick, the next time you are 'summoned' to Number 10 like some poor Baldrick, tell GB to shove it. He's not royalty! And even then you shouldn't run.
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Do not vote at all. Look at the reality. The political system is rotten. Why should anyone still be able to purchase and then claim mortgage payments on a first home, second home, "flipping" between both, plus maintenance, plus furniture, etc., etc., etc., etc.
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So David Cameron has told his Mps to pay back their expenses. Big deal, the damage is done! And why did his party vote against reforms the Lib ems put forward almost a year ago?
So far both Labour and the Conservatives have shown that all they care about is themselves. And what really sticks in my throat is having recently come off Incapacity Benefit, the one line that made me mad The Government says you need £75.40 per week to live on. How on earth would they know, I would love them to try and live on this!! I really feel also for the Job seekers trying to find work and getting about £60 a week on benefit, after all our government thinks they can survive on this!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
you couldn't make this up... Housing minister fails to pay council tax!
..."Lembit Opik, the high-profile housing spokesman, charged taxpayers for a £40 court summons he received for the non-payment of his council tax...."
Why didnt he charge the taxpayer for his council tax like every other mp appears to have done...?
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Why did you not post my previous comment ?
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well "writing cheques" seems to be the new buzzword, doesn't it? ... hope they don't bounce!
harris @ 146
right, John - and just to prove, once and for all, that I'm not one of those dreaded Class Warriors, I concur that 64k is poor for an MP - I'd go of the order 90k base plus a fixed 25k for split location (so if your constituency is, say, more than 30 miles from Westminster)
fingers @ 80
You are in danger of being the Polly Toynbee of the blogosphere
thank you - been called a lot worse!
georgina @ 121
However you choose to spell hypocrisy, it is still the preserve of the left wing
ah but that's a bum rap - that's like me saying that any free marketeer who doesn't go around buying and selling third world babies is a rank hypocrite
sicilian, babe
the very last thing I (and I'm sure Eaton) want is to "tip you over the edge" - anycase, the media consensus seems to be that Cam done well today, so you can sleep easy
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160 London
Spot on. you will be in a minority but you're absolutely right IMO.
WEll said.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Anyone else notice Ms Blears cheque was not actually made out to The Inland Revenue???
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Gordon Brown's pathetic attempt this evening to reseize the initiative by desperately trying to trump David Cameron's initiative earlier in the day have been perceived by most commentators to be an abject failure. The man looks to have aged at least 10 years in the past three weeks. I think he needs a break!
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119. davebergie wrote:
This whole expenses 'scandal' is a result of the typical British hypocrisy we display as a nation. For some reason, I think mean-minded class envy, we are unable to pay our MPs an appropriate salary.
--------
And while you were sleeping! I would not object paying a decent salary - if most of them did the job they were elected to do, which may I remind you, and anyone else interested, is the very last thing most of them do. Represent their constituents - all of them. We have far too many of them, sitting on their butts and doing nothing at all about the abuses of the executive. Reason - vested interests, it's the way the system works. It works for them, not us.
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#163:
Very true. Once again Gordon Brown has huriedly come out with what he purports to be a statement of fact that is not supported by those who are making the decisions.
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Dear Moderators,
Having sent my first response(including some mild criticism) to Nick Robinson Blog was surprised & disappointed that it was deleted for apparently no reason whatsoever.
Why??
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RESIGNATION OR RE-ELECTION NOW. RESIGNATION OR RE-ELECTION NOW
As far back as May 2008 the journalist Heather Brooke won a High court battle to release details of MPs' expenses.
Brooke said recently that the tidal wave was coming and to watch this space on MPs expenses.
The phrase you aint seen nothing yet was suitably appropriate.
The fact is ALL politicians fought tooth and nail and claw to suppress this whole saga. They put forward members bills in parliament to attempt to stop the publication of MP's expenses under freedom of information legislation. They tried and tried to make details of THEIR expenses, exempt from the law. They have been working together to deny the public the rights to the information that is now being divulged. Thanks to the house of Lords - who rejected the bills put forward by MP's - this information was always going to come into the public domain but not before OUR elected officials had tried very hard to stop it doing so.
So - All of the holier than thou statements from Brown & Cameron & Clegg and others and the crass and obnoxious statements of regret from politicians tonight should not fool anyone. It is an insult to everyone's intelligence. Not one of them is sorry. What they are sorry about is that the truth has come out. Nothing more.
If Hazel Blears (to name but one of many) thinks that her pathetic little gesture of waving a cheque at the camera is going to save her from the wrath of the public then she is more deluded than we already believe she is. What a truly shabby performance.
I am dumbstruck that even now - politicians are still missing the point but more importantly that they have all sat back and allowed this appalling state of affairs to be perpetuated, even if individually they are whiter than white. MPs have clearly closed ranks on this issue over the years and have turned a blind eye or worse. All members of the same club.
I am listening to David Cameron, today, attempting to take the moral high ground and trying to take political capital out of being all upfront about this and taking the lead. It is oh so pitiful and it is way too little TOO late.
It has taken some brave soul (who will most likely be hung drawn and quartered for doing so) in the corridors of the admin department that processes MPs expenses to whistleblow the whole sorry saga.
Are MPs seriously that out of touch with reality? Apparently so.
Does David Cameron seriously think that a groveling apology is going to be enough?
MPs to pay back what they have over claimed?
Absolutely !!
AND RESIGN !!!
At the very least submit his or herself for re-election. There should be a bi-election in every constituency where the sitting member of parliament has brought government into disrepute.
What has been done by so many, across ALL PARTIES is completely and utterly dishonourable. We have to have a CHANGE OF elected officials NOW.. Nothing less will suffice.
I am appalled also at the level of indignation and the attempts at justification by many so called MPs
It is worse yet that the loudest voices raised are those wishing to root out whomsoever it was that leaked the information. That is yet further damnation on those who have taken that line.
Lets not forget however that this has clearly been going on for years and that these outrageous expenses claims have been submitted and APPROVED and passed and paid ad infinitum.
Has there been no oversight??? Clearly not. And why not? Once again it smacks of collusion and birds of a feather.
If this was a PLC the CEO would be forced to resign by the shareholders for incompetence and lack of simple management control of workforce finance and expenses. Who is the CEO of the Conservative / Labour / Lib Dem party .?
The ironic thing is that this saga will most likely result in an even greater majority of the public NOT voting thereby allowing the MPs club to perpetuate itself. Instead of what should happen which is for the people to rise up and use the ballot box to vote ALL dishonourable individuals out of office and put upstanding INDEPENDENT ones into power in their place.
RESIGNATION OR RE-ELECTION NOW. RESIGNATION OR RE-ELECTION NOW.
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Eaton
I think you will find we are disillusioned with the whole rotten lot, whether we be clowns or trolls.
The facts are that Brown did nothing and Cameron took the intiative.
Clowns 1 Trolls nil.
I should add that paying the money back does not excuse them for being greedy and self serving and shows a general lack of judgement all round - they are sorry because they got found out.
Fact remains our lame duck PM was paralysed by fear - that is not good for any of us.
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I've just had a revelation!
The government sets the level of State Pension paid to OAP singles or couples.
Since they believe that is enough to pay for rent, council tax,
gas, electricity, phone, TV, food, clothing, car, petrol, holidays, birthday presents etc. etc., let's ask them to live off that same allowance in London.
Then we might see some justice for our senior citizens!
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What I find curious is the notion that because these people dont earn enough (or dont have enough money) then taking things - to which they are not entitled - is fair game.
I doubt that this would wash with a magistrate if you were up for shoplifting. Or is a precedent now being set where anyone on less than 64k a year is now allowed to steal with impunity?
Anyone want a different way?
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160,171:
The expenses scandal - though I think it is quite trivial in the grand scheme of things - may actually turn out to be the tipping point. Get rid of the lot of them should maybe be our new slogan. Chance for a clean slate?
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MPs keep saying it's the system that's at fault. That's just buck-passing. Please Mr Voter the system made me do it. Come off it. Lack of ethical standards more like. Can we find 100 Martin Bells for the next general election?
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just watched bbc interview with a DT 'editor?' seems the presenter went hell bound to defend the lib dem's troughers, is his name nick aswell? seems bbc are running scared of the conservatives hence their blatent contempt,or perrhaps they can see their particular gravy train coming to an end, you know what let's clear all the bloody troughing freeloading lazy incompetant's in the public sector/service out, BBC NHS, Education, security services politics, etc, let the honorable hardworking ethical competant people in these services, of whom i know there are many be reconised in a positive light and not tainted by the few, and let them recieve extra renumeration for their commitment.
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if I had any friends, I'm sure what they'd all be saying now is that it's high time to move on from MPs expenses - been interesting (damaged Lab and Clown about equally, maybe Clown a little more because of the guy with a moat) and it's been fun, but looks like it's more or less sorted now, doesn't it? - yesterday's papers, quite literally - was never a party issue anyway and shouldn't impact the election a great deal - was thinking it might, for a while there, but now I give it proper consideration, no it won't - if anything, maybe slightly increase the chances of a hung parliament - would be nice though, as one last thing, to know what pc of each party's MPs were troughing since that would tell us who was worst - anyone know? - going forward, we need to adopt something along the lines of my proposal @ 170 - that, plus women only shortlists for all new candidate selections for the next ten years or so should do the trick
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Nick,
I've been concerned about your impartiality recently, but have just watched your interrogation of Broon about having his troosers doon and you have restored my faith in your ability to get to the root of the problem.
Let's have more of this level of challenge of the ruling party.
Can you also pick up on the public disgust at the behaviour of the Speaker who is a total disgrace?
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I think it's time for us all to get some goodies on expenses.
Don't worry...it's all "within the rules"
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
It was only a matter of time!
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Although I'm not much of a Cameron fan, Im must admit he has shown some real leadership here: very welcome in present circumstances
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I have to say I'm pleased that Cameron has "spoken". He has shown a far better moral sense than Brown, who is a vacuum at the top of his particular pile - and he's now trying to claim the initiative - what does he think we are? The moral decrepitude of the government has been illuminated and we were all there to see it and in particular we noticed the absence of leadership. Shame about the education speech "re-launch" getting lost in all this hoo-ha.
The public flogging does seem to have worked to some degree though. We can only hope that this situation can now be cleared up over the coming months - I for one will be happy to see the state of the country come back as the focus of political discussion.
However, for all the seriousness of the situation, I'll never quite think about Hazel Blears in the same way again, having seen her in her cycling leathers. She should use them more often.
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Thanks Hazel, for paying the 13k in tax. But aren't you a higher rate taxpayer, liable for a little more of that 45k profit??? Moreover, as I'm no tax expert, perhaps you could explain why I have to pay the Inland Revenue any shortcomings in my PAYE contributions PLUS interest, but you have elected not to...
Pathetic gesture, I hope the pathetic little woman is summarily dismissed to the backbenches for the remainder of Labour's term in office, prior to being given the boot by the electorate at their first opportunity.
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Nice try David but what a flop YOU are, for here you are now saying that ALL your M.P.s' can Claim for in the future amongst other things will be for everyday Gas and Electric Bills on their Second Homes, while one of the Points put foreward by M.P.s' is that it should be O.K. to Claim Expenses on these same Gas and Electric Bills while away from their Primary Resident because they need biggest Properties as Second Homes so that these Properties are large enought for their Families to live in also, FOR THIS IS THE BASIS BEHIDE THE "FLIPPING" ARGUEMENTS FOR MOVING AROUND PROPERTIES.
Therefore, since M.P.s' ARE claiming to the FULL upon their Second Homes, their Primary [ First ] Homes lay un-occupied, and therefore are NOT using up any Gas or Electric, with NO BILLS TO PAY.
Why then, don't ALL M.P.s' along with their Families if need be NOT Rent a Property near to Parliament so that you can make use of the Wages you have grown accustomed to Banking each Pay - Day for the use of Paying for which ever PROPERTY you and your Families are residing in at any given time, for Gas and Electric.
Therefore, the Day of Change will come when ALL M.P.s' have to pay as they go with ALL everyday Items and BILLS, just like everyone else in Society at Large.
But, since ALL M.P.s' are forever looking for ways around RULES, there still remains but ONE WAY OUT. RESIGN, and GO.
AND PLEASE STOP TREATING THE GENERAL PUBLIC LIKE A BUNCH OF MUGS.
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#173
I expect there is a clause in the anti-terrorism legislation that prevents the live photography of ministers holding actual signed cheques for the Inland Revenue. Did you notice who it was actually made out to (I don't have hi def) was it by any chance to the "House of Commons Swear Box"?
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So Nick, when asked by you tonight, Mr Brown insists that David Cameron didn't beat him to an announcement on expenses, Gordon thought of it first, he did, no he really, really did, honest, he thought of it days ago, honest mister.
And then he makes a further announcement about reviewing all expenses going back over the last 4 years, and claims that he has all-party agreement for it. Which came as news to the other parties,as two senior MPs told the BBC he was "misrepresenting" what had been agreed by the committee.
They said the committee only agreed to examine the idea of an independent audit, that there was no "firm or final agreement" and would meet again on Wednesday after seeking advice on whether it was possible.
So Brown is late to the party and then misrepresents what has actually been discussed.
So much for consensus, eh Eaton?
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This gets from bad to worse.
Hazel Blears is now saying she will voluntarily pay the Inland Revenue for Capital Gains Tax on the sale of her home, not because it is necessary, but because the public are outraged.
Sorry, but I don't get it. You can't pay tax for something that is not due - either it is a liability, in which case it should have been paid and if it wasn't then it would be evasion, or it is not a liability, in which case you can't pay tax on something it is not due.
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#159
"What bothers me is I think they still don't get it."
I do tend to agree - which is why there does need to be a proper set of rules to guide MPs. Rules that can be broken and not simply stretched indefinitely to include anything. Of course a department that also says "No" to mad claims is also required to save MPs from themselves.
It is also interesting to note that Blears has done the cheque writing thing saying "I have decided..." thereby not waiting for the colossal titanic bulk of Brown to change course and engage with the situation. She's clearly at odds with the man after her "YouTube" remarks - good for her is all I can really say. Perhaps she also realises that once Brown has made an announcement, he'll leave it to someone else to pick up the mess and she wants to be free of it now.
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By the way - the usual 'fine' by the inland revenue for not paying over the right amount of tax is 100% i.e. you have to pay twice what you should have done in the first place - a useful deterrant.
So shoudn't the miscreant pay back double IHT/CGT?
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Someone above wrote this:
'The expenses scandal - though I think it is quite trivial in the grand scheme of things -'
That sentiment is quite worrying in a way if it is generally held....the expense scandal has give us all an insight into the mentality of the people who are supposed to be our representatives...I personally think it is far from trivial that this country is governed by these people.
I think it is possibly the most serious issue in decades. An issue that would still be a secret if these people had their way (and God knows...they fought hard enough to keep it a secret).
It's really a question of sheer contempt for us the electorate...keep that in mind and all sorts of other things make more sense....
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I know that Hazel Blears is not mentioned in the above but despite the video of her cheque waving I can see no facility within the BBC website to allow mw to comment directly on her payment to the taxman. In fact navigation of the site is not as easy as it should be. I digress. Do I take it that from now on every shoplifter will be allowed to pay for the goods taken when they are caught ? If not why not.The sooner this corrupt lot are out the better.
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Poor Saga - Numerous
I liked your 3 points for the Libdems but that was the closest you came today to being your 'usual self'.
I guess it was another bad day for you. Harriet failed to impress again today and Dave did a lot better than you'd hoped - who'd have thought it of an Eton Clown? Of course it was far from perfect I agree; some of his crowd couldn't even acknowledge wrong doing let alone apologise, but Dave made them get the cheque book out anyway.
I'll give you that contrition doesn't appear to have a place yet, but maybe Dave is serious about this "just being the start"; Maybe his committee will deliver quick answers; devastating if contrition or even justice were delivered by clowns when Harriet is still clinging to her rules. Still, hasn't happened yet. I would love it if Vince Cable and Frank Field were the independents on Dave's committee - Naive fool that I am.
The Moat was a good story wasn't it? I went to bed last night deeply troubled. Shame it might turn out to be just that, a story. Hobbs is saying that the moat work was part of the comprehensive schedule of all works carried out on his home provided to the 'Authorities' to put the much smaller set of claimed expenses into context. Reasonable even transparent behaviour. Not the way it was portrayed at all : Telegraph 1 - 0 Truth.
On the trickier subject of interest payments on 2nd homes that still appear to be untamed, the sad fact is that those were within even the spirit of the rules. I think Dave has managed in his first attempt to nail those things that the fees office allowed but were outside the spirit. Things within the spirit I'm afraid are part of the terms and conditions of an MP's employment. Morally I'm sure many would like to see them expelled and dragged through the streets. Legally though, it's not smart to mess with people's Ts&Cs retrospectively. Even on the moral issue, the people voted for NuLabour 3 times - people have to take some responsibility for the silly rules government came up with or allowed to perpetuate on their behalf.
I would settle for nailing the spirit of the rules for now (repayment), contrition or rough justice for offenders as appropriate, a new code with finance-neutral expenses post Kelly and a General election immediately thereafter to put good and bad once more before the popular vote.
Dave did OK today - Gordon obviously thought so too given that this time it was mere hours before he followed not the usual weeks or months.
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As my user-name suggests, I am no Labour supporter.
However, nothing has disgusted me more over the last few days than Speaker Martin's appalling treatment of Kate Hoey.
This man's appointment, and continued presence despite countless abuses of his position, goes to the very core of what is eating away at this once great institution over which he presides.
Despite what the current expenses scandel might suggest, Ms Hoey is just one of many members from all sides who is worth ten of our current speaker...........................whatever it takes, this man simply HAS to go!!!
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No 194, that's just horrible Hazel proving once again how stupid she really is.
Cameron, on the other hand, is playing a clever game. But it's a game he has the strength to play. His party has a good chance of being in power next time around, his MPs have a good chance of hanging on to their seats, if they're serious about serving the country. Therefore he can tell his MPs to shape up or ship out. What are they going to do? Stand as independents with the millstone of not having returned ill-gotten gains hanging around their neck.
This shows Cameron's strength and Golem Brown's contrasting weakness. A fair chunk of his MPs are going to be out on their ear come the next election. He no longer has the political capital to bring them to heel. They can just bring him crashing down by plodding into the wrong lobby at a given division.
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2 points - firstly, well done Nick for your interview with the PM. I'm sure you were hairdryered for even suggesting he was copying policy, but his attempts to claim he has the initiative on this were frankly ridiculous. The man is clearly out of his depth and finally you seem to have realised this
Secondly - if Hazel Blears has done nothing wrong why is she paying the money. If she has done something wrong, then I hope the Met Police will look into the tax avoidance by her, but also that she pays interest on the money that she has not paid to HMRC. That would be the situation with a normal punter, plus a fine of some description!
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#60 Peter Kenyon
To be perfectly frank, nobody is interested in what your party has to say on any matter anymore.
You have shamelessly reduced this country to its knees - the list of examples is so long and oft repeated that I won't even bother to repeat it.
Please just go away.
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@118 markc
"All the talk at the moment are the MP's who claimed for things that they should not have, but no one is mentioning the people who approved all of the costs in the first place.
People should be bringing these people to task, and they should be sacked.
Where were the whistle-blowers, or were these people in on the claims as well??"
there is said to be a big story from the telegraph, after today and tomorrow's libdem bashing.
my guess is that the only target left to them after labour conservatives and libs, is the speaker and his office.
id wager money on the speaker's deputy being involved with the leak, possibly because of the speaker over ruling him on expenses (or something similar) which is why he became so aggressive towards those questioning him???
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Journalists are now totally out of control in their criticism of MPs generally and Gordon Brown in particular. Robinson's interview with Gordon Brown tonight was a disgrace, rude,interrupting, extremely pro-Cameron. How much is Robinson paid and how much has he claimed in expenses? I think we should be told because it is also public money at the BBC. We pay these people a fortune just to be rude and not to explain without bias what is going on. As Stephen Fry says, there is not a more venal bunch than jounalists and we must start challenging their obsessions. They have failed to challenge the Telegraph on whether the information has been stolen - it was all going to be published officially anyway.
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Two points about current crisis;
1. For each party to come up with set of recommendations/measures to tackle this problem independently is a farce, taking partisanship to an extreme level that needs to be analyzed. It cannot be acceptable for us to see our politicians trying to make political capital from a mess they themselves have led us into. This is a cross-party issue and should be addressed accordingly even in the short term. Simplicity is key to establishing any level of control.
2. I truly believe that with the current climate of mistrust not only due to expense claims but with the approach in addressing the current financial crisis, in a democratic society there needs to be some kind of mechanism to establish a renewed mandate for all parties concerned-an early election or some kind of referendum could be a choice. The bottom line for me is that this is a time where people need to make a judgment call on our political system and more importantly the people handling it.
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hazel blears waving a cheque around for the inland revenue, to payback what would have been capital gains tax.... how big of her (no pun intended) how much would she have paid in stamp duty then? and why isnt she paying this back?
why has it taken her so long to come to this decision?
surely she could have gauged the anger of the public by looking at her own facebook page days ago? people posting there, calling her "a thief and a liar," dont exactly disguise their views
im still waiting for nick to ask the questions:
who put the current expenses system in place?
who is it, that has authorised all these wonderful expense claims?
when will revenue and customs be brought in to investigate?
for those claiming for the same thing more than once, when will they face criminal investigations by the police?
add to this, why is the salary and expenses of BBC employees kept secret?
could it be because they fall outside of the freedom of information act?
this would be the exact same process of "independantly checked" that brown is proposing?
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In all this reporting there is nothing sicker than the frightened vocabulary from Nick Robinson who has so supported the Prime Minister believing like his BBC board of governors that the labour party will always ensure the BBC remains a public broadcaster and so keep himself and some twenty thousand beeb colleagues in a realitivly cosy all expenses paid job.
Then shock horror his mates AD, HB and GB are caught like everyone else in Government with their nose in the public trough. Now he is worried as he is forced to follow the Telegraphs lead into illustrating that his mates the Labour cabinet are milking the system.
What a relief it must have been when the exposure switches to the Tories for Nick can now deflect the spotlight from his Labour Pals.
Sadly for the beleaguered Nick and his BBC colleagues though within hours David Cameron has taken real positive action shown great leadership and left Nicks pals in the Labour party still with feet in the public trough trying to defend the indefensible and with a bewildered leader caught with his pants down not knowing which way to turn.
Two tips at this juncture. As a general guide for you Nick and your BBC Television colleagues
One. Think what it sounds like
There are many Conservatives who would support an unbiased Public broadcaster and its staff if they would behave truly impartially.
Two. Think what it looks like
When your heroes are caught with their pants down its a good time to stop licking up to them,
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205. Fairoakgreen
Accept the new order. The BBC journalists know who there new masters will be and they are already attempting to please us. Good, I still however say privatise the damn Beeb- for all the troubles they dared to put us through in opposition and in the early 1990's. The people of this nation need to be re-educated about who the natural party of governance are- us.
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#209 deanthetory
are- us
I'm sorry, no offence - I just couldn't resist it.
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Cameron really got my attention today he showed quick and firm action i would say he started to look like a pm, brown was left looking like a bumbling fool as usual.
I don't agree he was simply just grand standing he actually did take real affirmative action, which is more than bumbling brown did.
Still I am not going to vote for him he has no chance where I live and the devil will be ice-skating to work before I vote labour again.
So it looks like the lib dems (Shudders)
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Surely, one of the perks of those in Government who devise, write and pass all the 'rules' in the House of Commons and Parliament is that they have the ability to write them all to their own advantage first.
With regard to your opening sentence of this article I believe that the saying goes, "Don't believe second hand information".
As a good BBC presenter once said on air, "It seems that the lies have all got round before the truth got a chance to get its boots on".
So many people have so many opinions that no one knows what to think about anything anymore, and the whole global scene just looks like one big mass struggle to survive from an individual level to the majority groups to the globe itself.
Life is difficult enough just trying to survive in a healthy enough condition to work and look after people let alone enter the concept of actually making any money at it all.
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I notice that there was one report that the person in charge of the vetting of expences raised a concern about abuses of the system 5 years ago. He reported this to the Speaker who is in charge of the unit who then refused to speak to him for weeks.
This regulating area is one that doesn't seem to have had much exposure and might have something to do with the speaker being shall we say 'touchy' about the topic.
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#185:
The 'moat' thing was apparerently untrue while the chandelier was a small lamp with some pieces of glass dangling from it. Don't believe everything you read in 'The Torygraph'. If you really believe this has hurt David Cameron more than Gordon Brown then think again. The polls indicate an equal balance but I believe the man himself has come out of it better than Gordon Brown with his desperate last minute attempts to reciprocate.
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#211:
I believe this will be the pattern that will be followed in the forthcoming elections and eventually in The General Election. Those that are fed up with The Government in many previously strong Lbour constituencies will be tempted to turn towards The Lib Dems. In marginal Labour /Tory seats the vote will go to The Conservatives. In any event we are looking at a Labour wipe out because they now have nothing to offer.
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I trust that Hazel Blears is paying interest on the late paid capital gains tax?
Also, as it was not declared at first instance and was only brought about by INVESTIGATION, then presumably there will be penalties added as well or is this something else that she is immune from?
The penalties should be the full 100% for wilfull neglect but no doubt this will have been overlooked.
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Let us just pray that this rush for new honesty and fairness on the part of MPs, be it genuine or otherwise, spreads quickly to all public servants. At all levels, they have been far too free with setting up the rules to suit themselves and not the people they are supposed to represent - that's us. I wonder if any investigation will go back to see what that nice Mr(and Mrs) Blair screwed out of the system?
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Once again leadership is shown as a difficulty for Mr Brown. He is always in "discussion" or announcing an "inquiry" and not making decisions. If he had his way he would have left this to Sir Christopher Kelly and we wouldn't have had an outcome until after the next election. I'm no particular follower of David Cameron but at least he leads. By the time Mr Brown's "full investigation into all MP's receipts over the last 4 years" reports the other two parties will have paid all their dodgy expenses back.
I don't know about the Tories being "do nothing" but here the Labour party have copied them. Mr Brown is now proving his ability to dither has not been dimmed by the expenses row.
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214 sicilian
I agree totally
"The 'moat' thing was apparerently untrue while the chandelier was a small lamp with some pieces of glass dangling from it. Don't believe everything you read in 'The Torygraph'. If you really believe this has hurt David Cameron more than Gordon Brown then think again. The polls indicate an equal balance but I believe the man himself has come out of it better than Gordon Brown with his desperate last minute attempts to reciprocate."
Its a case of not letting the truth get in the way of a good story.
The BBC started with swimming pools, chandeliers, manure and moats. As the day went on moats was dropped when the real story came out. But they continued going on about swimming pools, which suggests that swimming pools were installed using tax-payers' money, instead of swimming-pool maintenance.
I too think that Cameron has come out of this much better by showing leadership rather than dithering.
In fact things must be really bad as Polly Toynbee said in an interview that Brown is finished.
I'm looking forward toe PMQs today. Just let Brown say Cameron is 'do nothing'.
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It's all a game of trumping, leapfrogging and counter trumping folks. On LBC Radio this morning a Lib Dem spokesman announced proudly 'At least we've gone further than David Cameron on removing profit with regard to capital gains tax receipts with regard to MP's homes.'
Now I distinctly recall David Cameron in one of his answers saying that he did not completely want to preempt the findings of Sir Sir Nicholas Kelly's enquiry but would abide by any further decisions by his committee when they came out. He neither ruled the change in or out. To say that he he missed it out altogether is just troublemaking.
From The Guardian, hardly a Tory rag:
3.38pm:
We're on to questions.
Tom Bradby, from ITN, asks why Cameron is not asking MPs who sell their second homes from now to repay any capital gain to the taxpayer.
Cameron says Sir Christopher Kelly's committee, the committee on standards in public life, is looking at this issue.
Cameron went on to say that he did not want to prempt all the possible/probable recommendations of Sir Christopher Kelly as a matter of diplomacy.
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#220:
Speaking of The Guardian Polly Toynbee has now come round to the conclusion that most of Gordon Brown's policy decisions and announcements now are made from the perspective of maximum political gain which is why he is sometimes late to act in order to gain the best outcome. Strange when you think about it that these announcements often have the appearance of being rather hurried and il thought out. The word 'panic' springs to mind.
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Here's the link to Polly Toynbee's comments on Gordon Brown:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/11/labour-gordon-brown
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Have our politicians just discovered that there's such a thing as morality ? Oh My ! My Oh My Oh My ! Can we get them to discover that there is such a thing as diapers and that they now have an urgent need for them ?!!!
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sicilian and mike
okay fair point about not trusting the Telegraph, I give you that - but, for me, Moats have no legimitate place in our political life - easily the worst of the cases we know about - sorry, that's just the way I feel
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#193, yellowbelly1959 wrote:
"So Nick, when asked by you tonight, Mr Brown insists that David Cameron didn't beat him to an announcement on expenses, Gordon thought of it first, he did, no he really, really did, honest, he thought of it days ago, honest mister.
And then he makes a further announcement about reviewing all expenses going back over the last 4 years, and claims that he has all-party agreement for it. Which came as news to the other parties,as two senior MPs told the BBC he was "misrepresenting" what had been agreed by the committee.
They said the committee only agreed to examine the idea of an independent audit, that there was no "firm or final agreement" and would meet again on Wednesday after seeking advice on whether it was possible.
So Brown is late to the party and then misrepresents what has actually been discussed."
I'm afraid that hyperbole has been a hallmark of New Labour public pronouncements for years. Brown is involved in discussions - he has not got an agreement and for a change to be introduced it would have to be agreed through the Commons.
We've had constant claims that ideas, initiatives - even laws and regulations - are equal to action. It just isn't so.
Over many years, Brown has claimed to be creating apprenticeships. As far as I can tell, we already lag 250,000 positions BEHIND Brown's projections... So he says "We'll produce some more". When?
I am still appalled that HMRC have not fine-tooth-combed their way through all allowances paid to MPs. The Green Book says:
Taxation of Allowances
Expenditure for which reimbursement is claimed under the provisions of the Green Book SHOULD be wholly, exclusively and necessarily incurred for the performance of a Members parliamentary duties, and therefore deductible from income for tax purposes.
It does NOT say that any payments ARE deductible for tax purposes!
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David Cameron has demonstrated he can take decisive action and quickly. He has shown leadership qualities and integrity. He has done the right thing.
Who cares where Labour sits on this issue, it is the Tory party that has corrected their mistakes. No longer will dubious claims and abuse of the allowance system be tolerated.
Contrast his actions with the dithering Brown and his champagne socialist toffs. They have been too busy working the system and let our economy disintegrate.
It would be right and proper for Parliament to be dissolved and a General Election called. The electorate need this as a release valve, a process that will enable them to recover from those shocking revelations of allowance abuses.
Unfortunately, Brown has neither the leadership nor integrity to do so, he knows he would be acting like a Kamikaze and he hasn't the guts to try.
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There was a stark contrast between Cameron and Brown yesterday in the wake of the expenses scandal.
Love him or hate him, David Cameron took the initiative and implemented the type of rules that the general public have been demanding.
"Do nothing" Brown did not want to commit himself to the same sort of action with his "Brownites".
Maybe the best way to clean up the Labour benches and eliminate this stain on British Politics is to use a toilet brush and a few rapid flushes.
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I am no longer outraged over MPs expenses as I explain in The laughs that Hacker missed. Parliament is now a laughing stock.
But seriously, putting all the ins & outs, rights & wrongs to one-side, David Cameron has clearly emerged as the better, stronger, more assertive leader - which is something to bear in mind for the election. DC is a long way ahead of GB who looked even more desperate to cling on to power yesterday...
What I think needs to be done to stop this happening again and strengthen our democracy in all sorts of other ways too, is to hold a mandatory by-election whenever there's a scandal surrounding an MP. It's a simple solution that requires the MP to defend themselves and seek renewed authority from the electorate.
Watch Parliamentary standards improve dramatically overnight if that one simple measure is introduced.
Why not do it today so we can draw a line under this row, and return to talking about the economy....?
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By the way, Nick, other posters have pointed out that we've just had the biggest jump in unemployment since the 1980s. That has a bigger impact on the UK even than the mess over MPs' allowances.
And the PM floated another "good idea" - that the police should provide personal escorts for people who are frightened to walk home late at night. Come on! It's hard enough to get a response when a house is burgled, or a "minor mugging" occurs. Where are all these police to come from? (Or does he plan to allow European coppers to fly in for the evening - along the lines of the locum GPs...)
A little more thought, a little less "vision", a little more common sense would go down better than the headline grabbing stuff.
I'm appalled by the Allowances scandal. More ashamed of the lack of honesty about the really big issues.
- Brown did say he'd pull UK troops out of Iraq. He's done so. The US think that the underfunded / underequipped Brits had their asses whipped and slunk away.
- Brown said that there would be more "sensible" remuneration packages for bankers. A leading figure at RBS (70p.c. owned by the tax-payer) has just achieved a notional GBP11 MIL bonus. Compare and contrast.
And for goodness sake stop "re-cycling" and re-announcing old commitments as if they are new. Stop double-counting figures. Get real.
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Putting aside violence, I'd presume that most times the law gets involved is when money ends up in pockets it shouldn't for reasons that are not acceptable.
Until now, I have not been aware that 'putting it back' was deemed a solution smiled upon by the authorities, or society, in the much-loved manner of 'putting it all behind us'.
I regret to inform the deluded ones that this will not 'regain my trust' in any way.
And trying to pool guilt ain't going to do it for me either, so apologists from all sides trotted out still trying to peddle the 'we need to change the system' as an attempted 'solution' to a stupid, spun distraction that is their preferred notion of the 'real problem' are merely tarring themselves with their more venal colleagues' brushes. It fools no one.
Apologies not enough. Actions not words. And MPs being dealt with in the same way as the public upon whom they have imposed, so poorly, for so long. End the hypocrisy.
Yet to discuss this on BBC Breakfast with the £XXXkgrand inquisitors we get... Kevin Maguire? Again. And by way of 'balance'... Andrew Pierce. Again.
It may tick boxes, but it doesn't help inform. What a set of metaphors.
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I think The Hazel Blears Depreciation Society on Facebook is a lttle harsh. I'm beginning to feel a little sorry for the poor woman! Maybe I've overestimated her.
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I wish the day would dawn when the media did not set the political agenda in this country. I am so sick of seeing our elected MPs and Govt flap around like pigeons every time some rich media baron decides to fire a shot in the air. Cameron is being praised for his reaction to the furore, but all he was really doing is sucking up to the media who want a reaction from somebody. Brown needs to get a grip on expenses, yes, but not just because of what the newspapers are printing! I'd love to see a leader who would simply ignore the media headlines and pursue his or her own agenda for running the country. Instead we have ministers being dictated to by has-been actresses and a Govt that dances to the tune of the newspaper editors. Pathetic!
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One of the reasons David Cameron was able to act so quickly was that the Telegraph gave him advance warning of the Tory allegations (except possibly Greg Barker). They did not do this with Labour. I'm a bit surprised at the reaction of many bloggers here who seem to think that if Dave's alright the bunch of crooks he's leading are fit for government. Look at George Osborne, this is the umpteenth time he's been in trouble for showing "poor judgement" and he could shortly be running our economy. It just amazes me that so many right wingers on this blog think that they can somehow score party political points when their own party appears to be collectively just as venal as any of the others and more so than some, like the Lib Dems.
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so hazel blears pays tax on the 45,000 pounds profit she made.....surely the point is she should not have made any profit at the taxpayers expense and should therefore pay back the whole amount. I presume she will also be fined 100% of the tax due as normal taypayers are.
I have listened to an array of mp's and mp's wifes trying to justify the allowances, needed to do the job, 64,000 is not much to live on etc etc ...well they knew the salary before they decided to apply for the job, if they think they are underpaid let them resign and find a job in the real world..... I notice there is no shortage of candidates wishing to be honourable members so in a supply and demand market maybe the salary should be lowered....how about an mp being paid the average salary, this would ensure they work to improve the voters lot!
Surely the answer is not difficult, just abolish all allowances and replace with expenses which are subject to HMRC rules...just like the rest of us!
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Very,very biased Nick.And to think you once professed to being a Tory!
PS Why do the bbc not allow £ (Pound) signs?Bit too EUish.
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Amongst all the revelations about MP expenses we've heard, there has been nothing said about the "double bubble" claimants. There are quite a few 'pairings' in the House so it would be interesting to hear what expenses they may have been paid. Perhaps this is the Telegraph's next headline.
BTW mods. Where's my email telling me why my *151* was pulled?
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Nick,
This sorry state in which the country find itself has spread through all the major public services, institutions and organisations.
The same problem of expenses and allowances run with for the NHS, this is disguised as continuous training wereby only those who have been signed posted by their own cronies and inside grouping are able to attend; and so if you really check and ask for the right questions, such as how many sons and daughters of directors, husbands, wifes, cousins, unties, friends have been parachuted into internal divisions of the NHS because it's deemed to be a safe bet for policy to filter through, and thus management being unable to be efficient at their job because at the back of their mind they know that if they don't make allowances for a certain member of staff their career is in jeopardy. And so the original intended objective of serving the british public is fully compromised because this focus becomes of no consequence as the focus becomes protect your own job at what ever cost.
This leads to lack of discipline, accountability, transparancy and bulling! This is why there is so much waste of taxpayers money at NHS institutions because of the continuous bending of the rules and the creation of jobs to accomodate specific well placed individuals.
Check it! this is a fact!
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Hazel Blears , waving a cheque around like she done us all a good turn , surely this is fraud , not paying due taxes ?
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Oh what a mess this all is; I'm looking forward to the day when the politicians (any of them) have to confront the nurses, armed forces, low paid public sector workers et al over their next wage claim. Will we have the usual plea for restraint in these hard economic times?
Parliament is a big trough and they've all got their bloody snouts deep in it.
This expenses row is just another symptom of the rotten society we live in - where greed is the order of the day. The oiks of this country should be able to look up to those in authority for leadership; what do we get instead - unprincipled parliamentarians, inept bankers and a police force without moral authority. I could go on, but the list would be very long indeed.
How on earth do we get a government fit to lead this country with honour and integrity.
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Someone has decided to pay to the Inland Revenue the Capital Gains Tax on the money she made by
'flipping' her '2nd home'. £13,332 of Capital Gains Tax. Is it a case of "too little too late". What about the
principle profit on which £13,332 of Tax would have been due ?????
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As an earlier contributor pointed out Hazel Blears can't pay capital gains tax if it wasn't due in the first place as she has stated. I doubt HMRC have ever had the need for a "goodwill account" for people who suddenly have an urge to pay them money!!
Hazel Blears also states that she is paying £13,000 capital gains tax on a £45,000 gain. £13,000 would cover a capital gain of just under £82,000 (£9600 allowance and 18% of £72,200)but even that is missing the point. Ms Blears and all the others need to pay back THE CAPITAL GAIN not just the tax. The gain was made by using our money so the gain is ours not hers.
MP's clambering to "do the right thing" now they have been caught are too late, the damage is done, our suspicions have been confirmed and you are all tainted.
I doubt this is the last time we will all be taken for idiots by the people elected to serve us but at least we can get rid of the current batch next year.
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In sharp contrast to Gordon Brown's actions and inactions over the past few weeks, David Cameron has got his finger on the pulse of the nation on this issue by choosing action over words. And there are only two actions that can defuse this row. Firstly, MP's must be made to repay expenses claimed outside of the spirit of the rules. Secondly, there must be a general election. Cameron, to his credit, has demanded both.
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Sagamix 68 eatonrifle 92
I find it very strange that you would refer to Sarantium at 6 yesterday as being a fair post as it says that MPs have really done nothing wrong on expenses. I hope you feel that this includes the Conservative claims as well. As you continue to attack the Conservatives I presume it does not. Or is it simply that you have to find some way to excuse the Labour Party under any circumstances. Or is it that you believe that only wealthy MPs should be not be allowed the same rules as your socialist brothers. A little unfair do you not think.
You suddenly seem prepared to turn all the values that Labour are supposed to stand for on its head when it suits. I would genuinely like to know how you square your beliefs with the likes of Blears etc. who have tried to gain as much profit from the taxpayer as possible, which would have been used for all Labours supposed good works for the poor. Not very socialist I would have thought nor does it seem to fit in with what Brown has been telling us for 12 years, fairness and justice for all.
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David Cameron did have a good day yesterday and came across as having caught the public mood. Probably the best damage limitation stance he could have taken but, make no mistake, he is a politician and that was carefully calculated. Is that better that the extravagant, but clearly hollow, claims from Gordon Brown? I am not sure.
The real issue here is not the actual amount of money - if ALL MP expenses were refunded then it would have a minimal effect on government costs. What is important is that MP's are living in a cosy world, isolated from the realities of the ordinary citizen. When I hear MP's say "That was claimed in error. I am very busy and I have now paid it back" then I feel uncomfortable. It may well be 100% true but it is not an excuse that anyone else could get away with.
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Integrity,integrity,integrity..where art thou integrity...certainly not in Parliament...now the laughing stock of the world.
Fraud under the 2006 Act is being committed wholesale by the very people who made it. I didnt see any exemption clauses in this law.
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Slightly off-topic, but relevant, I think.
After 12 years of New Labour corruption, sleaze, incompetence, lies, surveillance, nannying and near-treasonable behaviour, can we please have hearfelt apologies from all of the media and showbiz luvvies who told us how, in 1997, things could only get better? Those of us old enough to remember Wilson, Callaghan et al knew better, but no one listened.
Back on-topic: Will someone at the BBC please ask one of the 'flipping' MPs to explain the motivation behind their actions rather than letting them get away with the 'its within the rules' excuse. Make them say what we all know...'I was maximising my income & minimising my taxation, and all at the taxpayers expense'
Go to go now, the blood-pressure meter is over-revving...
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If most people didn't vote, especially in the next general election, MPs would be humiliated.
The political system would then have to change, not just be tinkered with at the edges, but for this to happen the turnout would have to fall dramatically.
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While watching Neville Chamberlain waving a piece of paper around yesterday,sorry I mean Hazel Blears I thought what a good wheeze that was.As Blears does not actually owe the inland revenue a single penny in tax the cheque she is giving them will be counted as overpaid tax and will be able to be used against future tax liabilities,so in effect she isn't giving them anything.Are there any other ministers who have made great show of giving tax away but actually not doing it?
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Cameron showed leadership qualities yesterday by not dithering and waiting around, he took the bull by the horns and faced his guilty MP's then faced the media and British people.
Labour, well i'm afraid it was the usual thing, bleating sheep looking for direction, and for once, Nick actually cornered Brown and accused Labour of copying what Cameron had done hours earlier, but as usual Brown denied the truth.
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Nothing alters the fact that as professional journalists, especially those at the BBC and especially you Nick, you did nothing to report what was going on despite knowing what was happening all the time. You knew what McBride was up to and you knew the culture of the expense system, why didn't you say anything? So in effect you went along with the gravy train. You must see what people are writing here about you and the BBC yet you still stay very quiet. Where is your response?
Blair and Campbell cleared out the BBC of invetigative reporting after the Iraq lying scandal and you carried on after Gilligan went sucking up to them for fear of not getting any of their stories that they fed complicite journalists. These stories got reported even though you knew the source and you wern't even sure if they were true. You became a mouth piece for this government's propaganda machine.
SO NICK AND THE BBC COME ON SHOW US YOU TRULY ARE IMPARTIAL. AFTER 12 YEARS OF LABOUR GOVERNMENT LAY OUT YOUR STALL. WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL US?
YOU KNOW WHAT THE GOVERNMENT SAYS ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE CHARGED WITH AN OFFENCE AND THEN STAY SILENT; IT COULD IMPLICATE YOUR GUILT. WE PAY YOUR SALARIES, DID YOU KNOW THAT? OR ARE YOU JUST AS ARROGANT AS YOUR MASTERS YOU SERVE.
I can understand why more and more people are asking why we should pay an old fashioned tv licence fee, relevant for the fifties but still continuing it in the very modern century we now live.
THE BBC HAS UNDERMINED OUR WAY OF LIFE AND BECOME A PROPAGANDA MACHINE FOR GOVERNMENT. THIS CANNOT CARRY ON. THERE WILL BE A PAY BACK TIME FOR THE BBC TOO AS WELL AS MPs. THAT TIME IS FAST APPROACHING AND IT CAN'T COME SOON ENOUGH! IN ANY CASE YOUR BIASED REPORTING HAS BEEN SUPERCEDED BY THE BLOGS SO WHY WASTE MONEY ON A REPORTING METHOD FROM THE PAST.
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Re; 231
Anyone who can wipe that silly, self-righteous, smirk off Blears face will get my vote. Apart from anything else it is totally patronising giving out a message along the lines: "You will like me whatever I've done won't you? I'm just a cheerful little girl so, of course, I can get away with it.
Yesterday's edition of the Nottingham Evening Post [www.thisisnottingham.co.uk] was reporting that someone has referred Geoff Hoon and his property "flipping" to the police. It will be interesting to see if they do anything.
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When Kelly finally reports I hope he takes note of many of the comments made on this and other blogs. Amongst all the chaff there are some very good ideas.
The catchment area outside of which a 2nd home is deemed to be necessary needs looking at.
Main home and 2nd home to be declared at start of MPs term and no changes allowed except under exceptional circumstances.
Establish an expense system which is based on that which already exists for those who live and work in the real world.
And there are many more good suggestions on the blogs.
What is absolutely certain is that the present system cannot be allowed to continue.
I'm still waiting for some comment from HMRC and SFO about this affair.
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248. At 09:04am on 13 May 2009, digitalabingdonian wrote:
Give that man a pat on the back.
This is the Labour spin and contempt that people like her have for us the electorate.
Blears is not sorry in the slightest.
247. At 09:00am on 13 May 2009, worldlian wrote:
If very few vote we would have another 4 years of Labour because the die hard labour voters will vote.
don't think the country could stand up to another 4 years of socialist policies do you.
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Will Cameron still demand payback or be expelled if he is in Browns's shoes now as the PM and ldeader of the Labour party?
Is Brown unwilling or UNABLE to make the same ultimatum on Labour MPs?
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Is there a bigger picture?
My hope is that this exposure of the festering rot will have some outcomes. First, I hope it will bury the Labour Party for ever. No more Labour Liars- what a wonderful thought. Not that I'm a Conservative - it's now time to remove the party of Con for ever. No more tories.. Ever. The same goes for burying the Lib Dems but they never really got off the ground anyway and can't see the wood from the trees. perhaps rename them the MyOpiK party as a gentle reminder.
The great opportunity here is to remove political parties. Who need 'em? Why not have 640-odd independents who actually vote for their consciences and constituents and not how their unelected party masters tell them (after being told by their corrupt paymaster fat cats what to do).
I can see further advantages in curbing corruption too. Instead of bribing a few party grandees, the fat cats will have to bribe each individual. Very time consuming (just look at privatised rail operators/railtrack repetition in negotiations).
And why do we need 640-odd MPs anyway when the whole of Europe can survive with 700-odd MEPs?
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sloggers 233
Do you have proof of that, that Cameron was warned by the newspaper in question or is it just something you are saying to prove your point. I hardly think if the newspaper were going to print these expenses about the Conservatives they would have warned them before hand. Not only would it have spoiled the story but why print them in the first place if they loved the Conservatives so much.
Why you particularly pick George Osborne out is totally beyond me and does not add to your case at all. Brown is running our country and his judgment has been in doubt from day one on everything.
Furthermore Brown had plenty of time to act before the Conservatives as it was the Labour expenses that were printed first, why didnt he?
As I have said before I would like to see the full picture not just the one the newpaper is presenting for our consumption. An MP may have claimed a small amount for some silly item for instance but did he claim anything else, we do not know. There may be those that are really milking the system and those that hit the headlines just because they claimed for stupid things.
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It seems to me that both the setting up of the rules for MPs' expenses, their operation and now the panicky retrospective action by the "looking so dynamic" Cameron, and the dithering Brown are all symptoms of what we should expect from politicians who lead their party. In sharp contrast to good business leaders - they have failed to set up easily followed rules and acquiesced on the system's operations. As a company director and executive with many blue-chip companies, the submission and clearance of expenses required a personal scrutiny from my boss each time; in one company the division head presented his expenses to the group MD together with his monthly results. In terms of running anything - politicians don't ever seem to have that ability. One only has to look at the policy to assist 6,000 mortgage holders who get into difficulty (3 have taken up the scheme in 4 months!), to see that any capability to manage anything is beyond them.
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Every MP had warning of the Telegraphs intentions.Some,in the labour Party, were even allegedly put on suicide watch.
The argument that DC was given warning exclusively does not hold water and if any of thenm were unaware of the FOI battle which went through the courts then I'd have to give them a minus score in IQ ratings.
Everyone of them had warnings , they just thought they had until July to hide the specifics and sweep a few more pounds of our money into their pockets.
I am delighted DC has come forward and bitten the bullet.Good on him!
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I agree what thousands are saying: David Cameron showed true leadership qualities and speed in his actions yesterday. It really showed Brown up, the latter pitifully trying to "trump" Cameron in his cold faced interview with Nick on the news last night. On newsnight last night it was said that David Cameron tried to address this issue months ago but was met with disinterest in the government.
It is a big problem but, I have to say, there are others area of public life where our money is spent rashly and greedily - local councils for instance. We had a very highly paid and expensively dressed council worker come here (re disabled facilities) and just read in the local press that he parked outside the local Fraud Squad's building with a fake Disabled Blue Badge got fined thousands and kicked out of the council. There are many like him on the council gravy train.
There are millions in big industries "swanning" on expenses - probably in large nationalised companies too. Oh we haven't heard the half of it.
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Perhaps its time to take a look at MPs pensions now, and what they have voted for themselves ?
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The benefit to MPs of the second home allowance is of course far more than £24,000 because this amount is not taxable as an emolument. See the BBC's Q & A on MP's expenses. It is equivalent to having an additional salary of £40,000 grossed up at higher rates.
Ordinary folk who have to juggle their working lives and may have to have a second base do not have this very substantial perk and those of us with only one home have to maintain it out of taxed income. I would like the tax issue to be discussed more by journalists.
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Everyone here would appreciate a little bit of investigative reporting, if the BBC can bring itself to that, about claims on other websites that the speaker and Balls+Cooper have got injunctions to prevent the Telegraph publishing their expenses.
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@virtualsilverlady
traditionally the new speaker was dragged TO the chair....
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Sagamix
Earlier you referred to Cameron's opportunism which I agree with. However, the question remains, why on earth did he not take the 'opportunity' to sort this out earlier?
Strange really, is it because he's scared to upset his all-powerful backbenchers? Is it because he's not one to rock the boat?
And no, Susan, I don't care much for Brown or New Labour either! I'm middle class and still think that Dave comes across as a second hand Jag salesman (Blair was more second hand Rover, he wasn't blessed with the breeding).
I agree, Sagamix, I can't understand why the politically engaged don't consider the LibDems. I think it's the word Liberal - prior to the Falklands the combined might of the Liberals and the SDP looked like unseating Thatcher. I still think the SDP aspect was useful for the anti-Liberals (those scared that our prisons will be torn down, our borders flung open, hoodies hugged or was that someone else).
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Am I alone in thinking that today's PMQs might attract its highest ever viewing figures?
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Such a shame that what is actually a positive part of our democracy is being abused. The expense system allows those from poorer backgrounds, and from far reaching parts of the country, to represent their consituents in Parliament. In principal, that is a great thing - unlike the days of elite, wealthy landowners. That's incidentally why most Labour MPs have higher expense claims, being from (originally!) more working class, often northern, welsh and scottish backgrounds. The Tories claiming for moats and chandeliers shows this class divide hasn't completely gone away! There's no doubt that the system has been abused, and confused, but I hope the harsher critics of the expense system don't win their fight to have them completely removed.
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224 sagemix
My dear old thing, everyone should have a moat!!! We have one occasionally when the River Severn comes up too far and surrounds our stately pad!!!
By the way, Guido says that Hope, the Health Minister, is going to pay back £41k. Haven't seen this on the BBC yet.
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256 susan
The Telegraph has contacted each MP in person to tell them what they are going to publish and ask for comments. Several MPs have said this.
I would be surprised if some MPs had not reported this to Cameron (Certainly not to Brown for fear of something being thrown at them!!!) but Cameron wouldn't have known the full detail until the paper was published.
In this respect I think Cameron has done admirably as has Clegg, leaving Brown dithering and trailing in their wake.
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It was announced yesterday that RPA have lost this country over £200 million through incompetence. If on average each MP has claimed £10,000 more than they should have, this is still small beer in comparison. Let's get a sense of proportion.
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I share the National disappointment in the conduct of our MPs. Expense claims are for reimbursing necessary expenditure related to your work. To restore faith in our Parliament I consider there should be a full Inland Revenue examination of all claims, with prosecutions if crimes are discovered.
Just saying "Sorry" is not good enough, nor is simply paying back the excess claims! After all a burglar would still be prosecuted even if he said sorry to his victim and gave back the stolen goods.
It seems Sorry amounts to now we've been caught out we shall just say sorry and that will be the end of it. Hopefully the media and electorate will not accept that. Justice needs to be done and seen to be done.
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So Hazel Blears has so generously that she should pay Capital Gains Tax as she seems to be having second thoughts about her inconsistencies in defining her primary residence. She still pockets a very handsome profit of over £26,000 net of tax, greater than the average wage. Surely should ensure her primary residence for parliamentary purposes is this one as well.
In reality she has been working out the minimum cost of trying to hang on to her job, which seem to be to grin and smile at anything she faces.
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Couple of thoughts:
Why should MP's continue with the title of "Honourable Member" in view of the squalid behavior we've seen over recent weeks (already a dubious title anyhow given what's happened in recent years)?
How can an MP register the same property with one government authority as their secondary residence to claim expenses on that property and with another government authority as their primary residence to avoid capital gains tax on that property not be subject to investigation by the inland revenue? Would someone care to explain this to me as I'm clearly missing something?
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I know it's all very terrible and they're all a bunch of leeches etc. But unfortunately we get the politicians we deserve. Because of our misplaced desire that politicians should be whiter then white, and the hypocritical zeal in which the current press (both printed and broadcast) pursue any wrongdoing. We end up with bland, evasive career politicians who, of course are going to milk the system. Why do they milk the system....well because they are just like you and me!!...normal, if you are entitled to child benefit because the rules say you are, guess what, no matter how well you get paid, you'll claim it.....My real beef is that we will never get another Churchill or Lloyd George because they had some pretty big human frailties which would just not be tolerated by the press....and therefore by the howling masses.
So we have sentenced ourselves to career politicians, without ideas or values, without honour and integrity....
I'm a tory voter, but over the last few years the only politicians i have any respect for are Tony Benn and Dennis Skinner, they are true conviction politicians ....a dying breed!!
End of Rant!
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209 Dean
You're being triumphant. It's ugly, it's uncalled for - stop it.
Dave finally acted - little and late. Maybe not "too" little, "too" late - we shall see. A few weeks ago he could have done what he did yesterday, instead he called for consensus at PMQs. Either he was politicking and goading GB to do something he judged he wouldn't want to do or he genuinely thought consensus was possible with GB. Either way he misjudged it. Gordon only wants consensus if he get's the credit for it: Pre-empting parliament on U-Tube; apologising on behalf of all MPs rather than his own; demanding all MPs submit to audit after Cameron has already implemented his own audit; the brass neck of the man is unbelievable. Cameron has woken up to the fact that you can't play games and there can be no consensus with GB in place unless you're happy to play second fiddle. It is desperate rearguard action stuff and he has a chance to come out of it with some credit, but it would have been so much easier if he had acted sooner.
Paying back is not contrition. There is more to be done. The main second homes issue remains unanswered. It is more involved because it clearly is an addition to MPs pay and conditions. Unlike claims outside the spirit of the rules that can be dealt with quickly, claims within the spirit of the rules need careful consideration. Consideration that Kelly is giving.
On the BBC, Conservatives don't want control of it. We don't want "Our turn", we are not its masters. The public is and always should have been its master. Should Conservatives get in then they need to remove pressure on the BBC to tow the government line. The BBC needs to look to itself, honour its charter to the public. It can start now, it doesn't have to wait for change in government.
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Why is Nick's reports always so one sided? Is he a secret Tory? Why can't you give us the news unvarnished, I note YET AGAIN you have a photo of David Cameron looking masterful on your site followed by a sycophantic report about how great he is. You refer to him as "our next PM" why is this allowed to continue on a so called independent channel? Just the facts Nick, What a joke.
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Great, so the ''sorry '' word is used once again and all is forgiven!!
( oops forgot , here's my cheque ) NOT THIS TIME GORDON.
If the expenses were within the rules, why are they all repaying?
No, the answer is they all knew they were abusing the taxpayer and
have know been found out. Suggest Guy Fawkes knew what they were up
to when he tried to blow up Parliament, he got it right at
the wrong time.
Just of to do some shoplifting, if I get caught will say I'm sorry
and offer to give them my cheque. No need to call the police
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224 Saga
There probably was no moat, it probably isn't a feature of your political life - get over it. Repeating the Moat story in the face of the facts makes you a spin merchant. No matter how often you say it, no matter how much you want it to be true to underline your clown prejudice, it won't make it true. There is enough truly awful stuff out there to go around without making stuff up.
Stop spinning Saga, it is beneath you. Or prove he did claim for the Moat.
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205. At 01:42am on 13 May 2009, Fairoakgreen wrote:
Journalists are now totally out of control in their criticism of MPs generally and Gordon Brown in particular. Robinson's interview with Gordon Brown tonight was a disgrace, rude,interrupting, extremely pro-Cameron. How much is Robinson paid and how much has he claimed in expenses? I think we should be told because it is also public money at the BBC. We pay these people a fortune just to be rude and not to explain without bias what is going on. As Stephen Fry says, there is not a more venal bunch than jounalists and we must start challenging their obsessions. They have failed to challenge the Telegraph on whether the information has been stolen - it was all going to be published officially anyway.
===
The High Court ruled that the information had to be published. It was going to be published in July, so why your feigned disgust?
Do you have anything to say about our tax authorities, HMRC, paying a mole for stolen information on Brits with bank accounts in Lichtenstein?
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Like several others have noted..how can Blears simply write a cheque out to HMRC when as far as they are concerned,there is no CGT payment outstanding?
Plus..the cheque was not made out to anyone anyway..
Methinks this is one big con in an amateurish bid to deflect hostile attention,whilst knowing that no payment is actually being made.
She is treating the public as fools..yet again!
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232. At 08:20am on 13 May 2009, LippyLippo wrote:
I wish the day would dawn when the media did not set the political agenda in this country. I am so sick of seeing our elected MPs and Govt flap around like pigeons every time some rich media baron decides to fire a shot in the air. Cameron is being praised for his reaction to the furore, but all he was really doing is sucking up to the media who want a reaction from somebody. Brown needs to get a grip on expenses, yes, but not just because of what the newspapers are printing! I'd love to see a leader who would simply ignore the media headlines and pursue his or her own agenda for running the country. Instead we have ministers being dictated to by has-been actresses and a Govt that dances to the tune of the newspaper editors. Pathetic!
===
Indeed, Woolas, Brown & Co are pathetic, you are correct.
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Something is just not ringing true with these, as we are told constantly, poor MP who are unable to do their job on the salaries, but where do you find £41,709 if you havent been feathering your nest.
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Balls / Cooper should not be allowed an injunction to prevent their expenses being published.
Likewise we should see McNastie and his wife (chief of Offsted) Christine Gilbert's expenses too.
Yep, I expect the ratings for PMQs to be very high today.
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#256
Yes, interesting that Brown was so slow off the mark when the news started breaking. The way I recalll it was when the sht began to hit the fan Brown's colleagues were seen on TV telling us all that Brown was very busy with much more important matters ... Swine flu ... economy ... as if the total lack of trust in Parliament was a little insignificant side-show. Well, the word "global" could no be applied to this circumstance, so perhaps it did not register with the PM that it might be important enough for his consideration.
I do hope the new rules as finally agreed will be applied equally to the Lords - for the little scandal arising from their ranks has certainly been buried - and we have no opportunity to vote these people out, hence they do not have the same sensitivity for finding their moral guidance.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6211846.ece
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Nick,
There are rumours on other blogs that Michael Martin and Balls and Cooper have an injunction preventing publication of their expense details by the Telegraph. Perhaps, in the interest of transparency, and to ensure that all Members of the House are treated equally, it is time to make a Freedom of Information request to the Commons fees office.
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The general reaction on these blogs is becoming a little too 'Daily Mail' for me (or 'Sun'- for balance).
To précis the most sensible views IMHO:
We are having the European elections shortly, there will be a GE latest June(?) next year. Given the pressing matter of the economy it would be foolish to cause further disruption by another round of hastily arranged by-elections needed after sacking troughing MPs. Let the COPO (court of public opinion) decide their fate in a GE. The parties will then have to decide whether or not to risk the worst offenders being voted out.
The worst offenders IMO are those who have manipulated the property market for gain (flipping) as this demonstrates a more cynical, even criminal, side to their greed, more so than ridiculous claims on luxury goods or maintenance. If there is proven tax evasion or criminal negligence then prosecutions should follow.
As regards salaries, I think the top line of £64k is too little, relative to other comparable public sector salaries. I would not however like to see a situation where a newly elected (with parachute) novice with no real work experience is able to command what senior MPs are earning. How to avoid this is another debate to be had. I agree with other posters that the entrance criteria need to be looked at; at present mediocrity is the standard.
And yes it is a profession. If it wasn't they'd be doing it for the subsidised lunches. Obviously the desire to serve and improve public life must be there, that applies to anyone in public office. Are we suggesting that no senior civil servant should earn what a mid to senior manager can earn in the private sector? It's easy for somebody on a modest income to bleat that they should be doing it for the love of their country, why not put yourself forward? Do you have the qualifications, the ability, the skills? Off you go then. Likewise, anybody on £64k prepared to give it up and run for parliament for say £30k? Thought not.
The floated idea of having dormitories or barracks is ridiculous and doesn't warrant discussion.
Changing the topic slightly:
Why does everyone in the HoC tip-toe around the Speaker problem? At least Douglas Carswell has had the stones to organise a motion of no confidence. Don't think it will pass but well done to him. The Gurkha debate showed what can be achieved, surely there aren't too many fans of Gorbals Mick amongst the Lab back benchers?
224. sagamix wrote:
"..Moats have no legimitate place in our political life - easily the worst of the cases we know about - sorry, that's just the way I feel"
I'm guessing there's worse to come from Hoon & Balls-Cooper. Unless their lawyers have already been at work.
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233. At 08:21am on 13 May 2009, sloggers wrote:
One of the reasons David Cameron was able to act so quickly was that the Telegraph gave him advance warning of the Tory allegations (except possibly Greg Barker). They did not do this with Labour. I'm a bit surprised at the reaction of many bloggers here who seem to think that if Dave's alright the bunch of crooks he's leading are fit for government. Look at George Osborne, this is the umpteenth time he's been in trouble for showing "poor judgement" and he could shortly be running our economy. It just amazes me that so many right wingers on this blog think that they can somehow score party political points when their own party appears to be collectively just as venal as any of the others and more so than some, like the Lib Dems.
===
What, as opposed to a Chancellor who thinks we should pay his taxes for him and who "flips" his second home for maximum financial advantage you mean?
That is poor judgement and hypocrisy.
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I wholeheartedly support the sentiment in post 250, 09:10.
I read, watch and listen to the BBC's political and current afairs programmes but at times the obvious bias makes my skin crawl. I wonder how well the New Labour regime would get on with a level playing field?
I'm from humble beginnings and my wife is a teacher, we are hardly typical tories but this aloof, indignant, self serving, incompetent excuse for a government must go NOW. I am not asking you to be pro-tory, just stop spewing out the propaganda - it does you no favours.
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#254
Brown can't issue the same ultimatum as Cameron, if he did, he'd be thrown out for sure - his weak stance only proves his actual profound weakness.
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OK. We've got them by their expenses. Shouldn't we start asking about the cosy and highly lucrative relationship MPs have with 'Business'.
Sit on a committee, table some business friendly legislation, get a 'job' doing 3 hours a week for a couple of grand with the grateful business. The MPs are happy with their pittance of crumbs and 'Business' gets an easy ride dirt cheap.
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Yes - we have a 1997 situation all over again - the government has to go - it's not just the expenses saga - it's far more than that . They are rotten - to the core - the lot of them . And if you ask why they were re-elected - it wasn't because they were any good - it was because the Conservatives were so bad - ie it was a case of the 'best of a bad choice' . However it's now got so bad - like the Conservatives - that they have to go . Do we want independents ? or do we want parties ? Independent would be ideal but parties would be a fact of life . Perhaps a compromise - alliances - eg. one or more independent alliance . This needs to be organised right away . The candidates must be there in the electorates ready to go . The information must be out . The public must be made aware of them and must be able to see them as viable alternatives . Then when the election occurs we can all vote out the Labour , Conservative and Lib. Dem's and vote in the independents . Hopefully by then the independents will have a good idea about their alliances and where they will go and take the country . And we must understand that radical change is needed . We have a good idea what's required - health - privatise and free up most of it and run it on the European \ Australian model . Education - free up most of it and put it under local parental , council and private control - use a voucher system for each child . Get rid of all the piles of unnecessary legislation and all the oppressive laws . Get everything as far away from the government and the government corruption as possible and as close as possible to the people and to reality . Claim back our nation ! Unite people of Britain ! Arise and claim back your birthright !
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#248
If Blears really is that cunning, then she deserves to be the next leader of the Labour Party, or certainly its Cancellor.
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This is all very disappointed from the BBC. While the BBC seem to be debating the fact that the party leaders are doing this or that, they are simply missing the point; the MPs have abused the system, in some cases fraudulently. On channel 4 news last night, John Snow, actually concentrated on the issue: that MPs were abusing the system. I find it shameful that Nick Robinson is concentrating on what David Cameron is doing and what Gordon Brown isn't. This is a cross party issue and should be reported as one. If I didn't know better I would think Nick has forgotten that the BBC is supposedly a neutral when it comes to politics. Let's be honest, if a citizen of this country who had fallen on hard times, and claimed more than they should, then they would face a possible prison sentence. What makes MPs different? The BBC, and in particular Nick Robinson, have a duty to address and report the real issue. David Cameron has been in charge for 4 years, claimed nearly the full allowance himself! Why didn't he, or Gordon or Nick Clegg for that matter, try and address the issue before the media hype.
Shame on the BBC and Nick Robinson for poor reporting and giving David Cameron an EASY ride yet again.
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233. At 08:21am on 13 May 2009, sloggers wrote:
One of the reasons David Cameron was able to act so quickly was that the Telegraph gave him advance warning of the Tory allegations (except possibly Greg Barker). They did not do this with Labour.
===
Nice try, but I'm afraid your argument is completely undermined by the facts.
Gordon Brown has had two MONTHS advance notice of this, as that was when Jacqui Smith's expenses were leaked from the same source. All he did was give her his backing (surely the kiss of death) and state thaat she had acted within the rules.
Care to repost but using some facts this time?
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#28:
Couldn't agree more! And I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with Tebbit.
If there's one thing that makes me even angrier than the MPs and their expenses, it's voters who say that they're so disgusted by all this that they're not going to vote at all. Can't they see that that just guarantees the same old corrupt politicians will get in?
Please everyone, there are plenty of other parties to choose from: Greens, Monster Raving Looney, UKIP etc (although UKIP have pretty spectacular form for corrupt politicians too). Just make sure you get out there on June 4th and give the mainstream parties a nasty surprise.
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#247
I hope there is a very big turnout for the next elections.
If people do not go and vote then we will get a non-representative government with no authority and this would certainly be a bad thing, the dreaded "political vacuum".
So we must vote.
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Can anyone explain why Cameron was not 'appalled'about the scandel two weeks ago? Could it be because he has been found out? Does anyone believe that he was not fully acquainted with the expenses gravy train?
It will take all the ex spin doctors experience to convince neutrals of his leadership qualities. I have heard that Norman Lamont is prepared to spend a little time helping to sort him out.
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Hi Nick
At least when he came under pressure David Cameron did something reasonably effective. In contrast Gordon Brown just fires out ineffective initiatives which everybody ignores.
This shameful episode must not be allowed to happen again....
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I have a suggestion as to how MPS should be paid in future:
At the general election each constituency candidate should 'bid' a salary. This is the level at which they would be prepared to do the job. They should then be entitled to no other allowances than travel expenses.
MPS from far flung places would obviously be expected to bid more than those closer to London.
The public would not necessarily opt for the cheapest candidate, but they would like to know exactly how much they would have to pay, and be reassured that there was a limit to how much the MP could earn.
The system would put downward pressure on MP's costs generally, and save a lot of money in the administration of expenses under the current system.
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#241 Stephen_Hunts wrote:
"Ms Blears and all the others need to pay back THE CAPITAL GAIN not just the tax. The gain was made by using our money so the gain is ours not hers."
I don't think so. She bought the flat and she sold it .. with her money (or perhaps she had a mortgage or loan for it).
Parliament paid her some running expenses on it as it was an aid - under the rules - to her doing her job, but Parliament did not buy the flat for her.
So, the capital gain, is in fact, hers.
But that she avoided paying the tax on that Captial Gain on this 'second home' is potentially a serious issue.
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#281
Do you speak Dutch by any chance?
8-)
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I think that in their rush to be squeaky clean, some MPs and dare I say it, David Cameron, are missing the point.
Most fair minded people would accept that to be effective an MP needs two homes and to ensure that we don't get a situation where only the rich can stand for parliament, the state should provide adequate accommodation in London. That should obviously include furniture, some mantenance and even things like TV sets - we can't complain they are out of touch if we deny them the chance to watch Newsnight etc when they are in the capital.
All that is legitimate.
What we are complaining about is that they seem to have no sense of proportion. You get the same programmes on a £300 TV as you do on one costing £999. In the real world, we cannot afford to redecorate our home regularly and certainly can't afford a designer to do it for us. It is unnecessary to have an expensive trouser press - an iron will do the job.
If I'm away on business, I can claim my overnight expenses, including a meal but the company wouldn't dream of reimbursing me for a packet of biscuits.
The sad thing about all this is that it shows that many of our MPs are completely out of touch with how ordinary people live, which is why they presumably believe that a 7p an hour rise in the minimum wage - just over 50p a day - is adequate.
If those who have passed can see what goes on, George Orwell must be bursting to blog
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Having skim-read most of the posted comments there seems to be an attitude that MPs, with constituencies outside London, should be able to sit in Parliament, which is located in the Borough of Westminster, one of the most costliest places to live in the UK, for 4 days a week when in session, using their 65k salary. This is despite the fact that they will have constituency homes, families and all the expense that these incur. This is what the second homes allowance was designed to address. Those MPs who have claimed for help with mortgage payments, utility bills and council tax are not ripping off the public. What sort of people do we want to run our country? Without a higher salary for such an important job, or the continuation of expenses in some sort of form ,only the very rich or the very stupid will seek to enter parliament. The politics of envy has got to stop. Those MPs who have manipulated the system by randomly redesignating their second home (Blears, Darling) or who have used the system to build up a property portfolio (Hoon) are the ones who are morally bankrupt. Those who have claimed for cleaning of swimming pools or hanging of chandeliers are simply out of touch with ordinary people, but they are not crooks. Anger at what is permissible within the rules and what is possible within the rules should not cloud our judgment. With the mess that the country is in we need good politicians who are appropriately rewarded.
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@250 corrupt fred
SPOT ON
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274 euan
As everyone on this board knows the blogs are not balanced. many of us feel that the BBC is very much biased towards Labour.
I read Nick's blogs then reverse the argument. It works for me!!!
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#224 sagamix
I think everyone should drop the references to Douglas Hogg's moat.
He didn't claim anything for it.
What he did do was to send in a schedule of maintenance outlay that he had paid on the property with his claims for certain reasonable expenses as evidence of the resonableness of those claims.
Having said that, the way he was harangued by reporters over the issue on his way to work, was neither right nor reasonable. I note the BBC seem to have now 'disappeared' the footage they were showing on their web-site yesterday of some not particularly competent reporter basically not listening to a word he was saying.
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Nick
Honourable - 'pagh'
You rightly hinted the word 'Honourable' should be removed from Members of Parliament when they address each other in the Chamber. MPs have joined a class where the word 'Shameless' and 'Dishonourable' are not recognised. If they had an ounce of common sense they would have anticipated the current uproar. Who else do we put in this class but a bunch of Directors and Executives who set the rules for themselves and then abuse them at the cost of the luckless majority in the population. Fred the Shred, without shame for destroying the Bank of which he was custodian, does not offer to repay his undeserved bonuses any more than the Directors who handed them over to him. We recognise them for what they are, lucky to be able to exploit a situation we should have avoided.
MPs are different. They set the rules and regulations for all of us and if we step outside the miriad they have carelessly created, we are fined or incarcerated. In that position the population will always accuse them of being self seeking power maniacs and if they were worthy of being elected they would recognise how open to this accusation they are and do everything to avoid evidence that confirms it.
They obviously changed their own rules to benefit from the rising cost of houses using expenses intended to compensate for unavoidable costs without being taxed on them. Some say this is because they should have higher salaries because it is such a difficult job. It would be if they showed some courage, particularly on Government party benches, to seek better laws and not preferrment. As it is I doubt people generally would agree to see MPs get a pay rise for being self seeking lobby fodder who want as an opaque parliamentary system as possible.
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The Commons authorities have called for the police to investigate the leak of MPs expense details.
How do I get the police to investigate the the wealth of criminal fraud the leaked information has uncovered?
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If I understand well, all three main parties have been at it and now that they've been found out, they want to rectify the situation and review the expenses over the last 4 years. Certainly, the idea that parliament should purchase houses/flats for all MPs and drastically tighten the rules has a certain appeal.
One little thing springs to mind: Remind me, who was PM four years ago?
I so wish the same scrutiny would apply to MPs of my country, Belgium, you'll then find that UK MPs are actually almost honest...
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291. At 10:06am on 13 May 2009, artisticsocrates wrote:
#248
If Blears really is that cunning, then she deserves to be the next leader of the Labour Party, or certainly its Cancellor.
Blears as Cancellor!! A Freudian slip that actually says the right thing. Her actions have almost certainly cancelled any chance her party may have had.
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Does anyone remember what the Tories were like when in power? What happened to State pensions, hospitals, selling everything in sight (gas, water, rail etc.)
Labour were given a huge majority for change. They blew it and continued as before. The Royal Mail is next.
Do you think things will be any different if the Tories get back in or Labour stay in power?
Simply don't vote. I believe that is what they are all really concerned about. Spoilt ballot papers are no longer counted and compulsory voting has been discussed. Why?
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At the end of the day we had a system that:
a) Was open to abuse
b) tempting
c) No systems and controls in place.
d) A person who, whilst in theory responsible for issuing receipts, was under the control of someone (the speaker) who had a vested interest in continuing said system and could thus apply pressure to ensure the system kept on going.
The court of public opinion demands
a) The dismissal of the speaker for alleged corruption in public office - no confidence
b) An independent investigation as to how and why certain House of Commons positions were appointed with people manifestly unfit for purpose (and I include the Sergeant of Arms in this re Damien Green Affair)
c) The instigation of an independent department for the control of expense claims. I would suggest that the big accountancy firms be approached with a view that each of them should allocate a senior member onto this panel.
It is almost as if New Labour came into Parliament with the deliberate aim of destroying the institutions and discrediting the members
Most people would agree that a member of Parliament, outside a certain time from London needs two places - one to stay whilst parliament is in session (Last Night the Finance Bill went on and on into the wee hours)and one to stay whilst they are looking after their constituents.
It cannot be denied, moreover, that most members do a lot of hard work for their constituents especially as they are often a case of 'last resort' for resolving perceived injustices and they do have a lot of 'clout' and, of course, a detailed knowledge of who and how to contact to resolve matters. Usually this hard work goes unreported - it is only when something really serious occurs that it gets into the papers - but should be appreciated.
We expect that MPs should ,like Calpurnia' be beyond reproach - regrettably they are human and have human faults as well as human virtues. How many people reading this have tried to fiddle expenses? How many don't make a full return of income tax forms 'that's nothing - everyone does that. It's expected!' (WS Gilbert - Ruddigore)? It is alleged that BBC reporters have been creative in the past and can we be really sure that even the bloodhounds of the Daily telegraph have not, at times, resorted to 'creative accounting'?
Although we rightly (until recently) claimed that the British system is less based on corruption this has not always been the case - in fact until late Victorian times corruption was endemic. Even now we have had 'cash for questions', 'cash for honours', 'cash for policy amendments' as well as 'cash for defence contracts', 'cash for advertising concessions'. We can't exorcise this canker amongst those who have the power to act, all we can do is to expose it to the bright fresh air of public opinion to minimise its effects.
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The other thing - if we are going to vote for other parties we have to be strategic on it - ie. ensure that the candidates get in . This means identifying individual candidates in individual constituencies and voting them in - ie. ensuring that LCLD candidates don't get in by default . The whole process of getting in alternate candidates could really use a good web site or two - get them noticed - get discussions and evaluations going - settling on candidates - voting them in - making the vote out LCLD work . It doesn't matter if it's the Monster Raving Loony party candidate providing they're a decent candidate - and - going on the LCLD records MRLP would probably be a darn sight better anyway . Let alone the Green Party etc. .
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A big problem that I'm having, knowing what we all do about the media, is trying to figure out how much of this is absolutely true, how much is half-truth and how much is a total misrepresentation or simply a guess.
And, I agree with all those who think that the BBC should put put under the same scrutiny. It is our money and we have little choice about paying it. 95,000 for a newsreader who can hardly string a sentence together is a waste of money. I would be interesred to hear anybody trying to defend it. The same with helicopters flying over swimming pools. My income is only a little over 10,000 a year, but I know what a swimming pool looks like.
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Paying back what was paid out for any item that was not strictly within the rules of the Green Book should be the first step. Going further, if an MP sold a property claiming it to be their first home to avoid paying CGT when in reality it was their second home (Hazel Blears plus God knows how many more)is evasion of CGT, and should not only have to repay that, but should be charged in the same way as any one of the public would be charged by HMRC for tax evasion.
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Thanks OilyDavid:
"In reality she has been working out the minimum cost of trying to hang on to her job, which seem to be to grin and smile at anything she faces."
Is there evidence of the permanent grimace being a by-product of something?
Is cosmetic surgery in the "allowable" expenses category and if so, do we simply have to grin and bear it? Who cares about female vanity anyway.
I find her constant need to be on the telly very annoying and the day-by-day nurturing of that phoney "northern lass" accent nauseating to the extreme. Sadly, just a desperate attempt at appealing to Salford voters in order to hang on to at least her MP's perks. Cabinet exit door beckons, so clearly too late to salvage that one...
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205. Fairoakgreen wrote:
" Robinson's interview with Gordon Brown tonight was a disgrace, rude,interrupting, extremely pro-Cameron. How much is Robinson paid and how much has he claimed in expenses?.... As Stephen Fry says, there is not a more venal bunch than jounalists and we must start challenging their obsessions."
My reply to another Derek Draper Clone;
1) The disgrace was surely Brown's claim that he thought of it first when he very obviously didn't.
2) I don't think anyone has suggested that Nick is pro-Cameron before.
3) Do we need a lesson in morality from someone who served a jail sentence for credit card fraud?
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Let's not forget Uddin and Smith - both still in government. Two fo teh worst examples and yet now being sidelined by the great flood of their colleagues doing the same sort of thing.
On PMQ's today - they might be a big TV draw, but don't forget they will satrt with another roll call of deaths of soldiers fighting in Afghanistan. How do the families of these soldiers feel when they see the leadership of the country in the hands of Brown, Hoon, Blears, Smith, Miliband, Balls, Darling, McNulty, Mandelson and the rest?
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296 braveSouter:
"Can anyone explain why Cameron was not 'appalled'about the scandel two weeks ago? Could it be because he has been found out? Does anyone believe that he was not fully acquainted with the expenses gravy train?"
I think he was just waiting until his own party's expenses were published. Remember that officially Cameron didn't know what the individual expenses were for his MPs before the publication. So while he knew there was abuse, he wasn't able to (legally) see the actual information.
I also think that the actions of the speaker, and of Brown over this gave him no choice but to do what he did; the speaker and Brown were both still trying to hide the information and are to this day still trying to stop publication for things such as "flipping" evidence.
**The speaker is still trying to stop publication** - therefore Cameron had to draw a line in the sand because labour were still avoiding the problem, so he drew the line and said "this is how it's going to be for my MPs; if you (labour) want to hide the information for your own MPs then that's your lookout; I'm not going to allow my party to hide things like you."
Did Cameron do it for "moral" reasons? Well, this is peanuts compared to the trillions wasted/lost by labour generally, so my guess is that he thought that the historic abuse was pretty much irrelevant in the grand scheme of things when it comes to economics, but that he did want to fix the abuse going forwards because it's like a noose around the neck of all MPs.
I think he did it out of pure practicality and political advantage rather than for moral reasons, but the end result is what we all want.
He's a p.r. guy, so he knew you can't defend the indefensible. By taking the initiative, owning up, and physically forcing the money to be repaid immediately, he's made labour/brown (and especially the speaker) look like crooks who are still trying to hide things.
Despite what the BBC says, none of the "cleaning-up processes" have been Brown's idea; he was the one who actively tried to block publication (along with the speaker) through every legal means possible, all at our expense. Brown's been forced into a corner by the press and by Cameron, and he had no choice but to do what the public demands.
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Apparently the committee looking into expenses is chaired by the same labour MP who previously rejected proposals for a full external audit of MPs expenses.
And, labour's copy-cat "payback" scenario which they announced hours after Cameron announced forced-payback only relates to claims "that were outside the rules" (ie none) and would be entirely optional and will probably not happen at all.
No wonder Cameron took the initiative and jumped over the heads of all the labour troughers so that he could do his own thing and just ignore the labour farcical/false "fixes" and do it properly instead.
Nick; why do you let Brown/Labour get away with all their lies and false spin?
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"sloggers wrote:
One of the reasons David Cameron was able to act so quickly was that the Telegraph gave him advance warning of the Tory allegations (except possibly Greg Barker). They did not do this with Labour."
First off, I am sure that you have proof that this is in fact how it happened and aren't just guessing. However, I would have thought that any sensible party leader would have spoken to his MPs when the first reports of the expenses problem were reported and asked them if there was any expense claims that were likely to embarass the party.
The party leaders have known this is coming for a while and should have prepared themselves.
"Look at George Osborne, this is the umpteenth time he's been in trouble for showing "poor judgement" and he could shortly be running our economy."
I must have missed many previous scandals involving George because as far as I can remember this is the third - one was a photo taking many years before he became an MP, and the second was a certain boat trip (also involving a future Labour Lord). And his expenses were actually very tame compared to others. The standout claim seems to be that he had an expensive drive home - which is fairly meaningless out of context as it could be that he needed to be back in his constituency for an early start after a late session in the House. Now I for one think that is something that should be expensable.
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310. At 11:02am on 13 May 2009, worldlian wrote:
Does anyone remember what the Tories were like when in power? What happened to State pensions, hospitals, selling everything in sight (gas, water, rail etc.)
Labour were given a huge majority for change. They blew it and continued as before. The Royal Mail is next.
Do you think things will be any different if the Tories get back in or Labour stay in power?
Simply don't vote. I believe that is what they are all really concerned about. Spoilt ballot papers are no longer counted and compulsory voting has been discussed. Why?
Do you realise the amount of investment needed in the utilities that was needed back then, it was unaffordable.
As for the economy when Labour came to power, even Bliar admitted that they inherited a very stable economy and Brown was able to pay off approx 36 billion pound from national debt in his first budget.
Your points on pensions don't stand up to much considering Browns 100 billion pound raid on private schemes has left my generation and future generations with little to look forward to in retirement as he has destroyed our schemes.
If you don't vote, you have no cause for complaining.
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the second homes question is easy to solve. In future if an MP wishes to obtain London accommodation then the country will buy him or her a modest flat. To be owned by the country rather than the MP. All profits from the sale of the flat would accrue to the country. It could not be sublet.
If a falt was purchased only essetial maintenance would be paid for by a govt regulated company. No furnishings would be allowed other than a basic set limit, receipts to be obtained. Large items such as flat screen TV or sofas would be paid fopr but not become the property of the MP, who woulfd have to account for them at the end of a set period.
There must be many bargain flats available on the open market.
If a flat became vacant for a specific period then the MP would lose the right to live there. This would prevent the MP from abusing the accommodation.
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I am new to blogging and don't often make a stand but am learning that to be heard we have to speak out.
The Government insist more and more that a watchful eye is kept on us taxpayers in our nanny state with economic and social intervention but in the meantime who is watching them?
The recent exposed expenditure of MP's is an outrage and good on the person who exposed them.
I would love to be able to spend my own money on a swimming pool, my garden, my home. Lots of non homeowners would love to be able to afford just one home of their own let alone a 2nd. As for a cleaner, well, that would be complete luxury.
For most full time workers the average salary is between 21-24K some of us only just manage to keep our heads above water. Repossessions of homes have increased by 48% in the past year. Wouldn't it be nice to just be able to pay our mortgage, rent and bills and have a little left over.
What I could do with an extra £23,083, £5,000, £16,500,or even £528.75 would be nice, let alone to have a Chinese needlepoint rug to have repaired and cleaned (whatever that is).
What other way can we get our points across (now) rather than waiting for the next General Election?
I can't help but think what would happen if we all stopped paying our Council Tax's for a short time?
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Look, all this chat about expenses. I mix with my local community here in my town and hear the chatter. Nobody is talking about what the Media is whipping up; They are more interested in what hurts them the most, lack of money, jobs and credit. When folk get themselves elected as MP's it is expected they do well out of it. Whether right or wrong, they were priveleged to be elected and they reap the spoils; Who amongst us has not fiddled or worked the system at least on occasion in our lives. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone; If the MP's dont do what they are elected to do, they will not be voted in again. Its the public who decide these things not the media. Let Parliament make a good system and lets pay a one time livable wage incrementally more the further away your seat is. let them get on with the job they were elected to do in this time of crisis. The money they are accused of milking is peanuts in the big picture. God help us if we had a really corrupt system as in other parts of the world; Ian Lincolnshire
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I think one of the big problems - especially with this expenses scandal - is elitism . I think Labour is particularly bad in this respect . However I think all parties are guilty - both on a national and on a European level . Much of this elitism is built into the system - treating the politicians as a different class of people . If the elitism was removed - the politicians all brought under the same rules that we all have to live under that would solve a lot of problems . For the UK the HMR&C rules can be used - they are what all us business people are very familiar with and they are very effective . The main other issue is accommodation - no second home - provide a hotel and subsistence allowance plus travel expenses . Expect the politician to have a home in the constituency . Then it's the EU - that needs a thorough overhaul as it's rorting is ten times worse .
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#300
Very possibly maybe ;)
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#321
If you would care to read Hansard
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1977/nov/25/nationalised-industries
you will find a list of the profit/loss on the nationalised industries.
Electricity +393.3 million, Post Office +275.4 million, gas +80.4 million, BAA +37 million... Coal and rail had large losses.
If you then read Will Hutton's "Let's get over our silly fears of public ownership" Observer 6/4/08 you will find that LSE's Professor David Stevenson has closely examined the performance, growth,and productivity of the nationalised industries during 1950-70 and found they matched or exceeded their private-sector counterparts.
Between them, the Tories and Labour have closed or sold off this country's assets, created PFI's, deregulated the finance sector, decimated manufacturing including training, funded tax cuts and incentives for the wealthy friends including pension contributions, downsized most public services apart from themselves... need I go on?
Your logic of saying if you don't vote, you have no cause for complaint is strange. I pay tax so why shouldn't I complain about what is done with my money. Just because I don't wish to put my name to a dodgy, expensive, bloated, inefficient political system doesn't mean I have no right to analyse what might effect a change.
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Now we know what Parliament has been upto , maybe its about time we find out what amazing expenses the EU Meps obtain for their 'work' in EU Parliament
IMHO the only people that have benefited from europe are management, trade union leaders and politicians. I may be 40 but i think you should all watch IM ALRIGHT JACK with PETER sellars , and you will find what applied then with these 3 sets of people is applying here in UK parliament and EU
Can we outsource them rather the average worker please ?
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310 woerldlian wrote:
"Simply don't vote. I believe that is what they are all really concerned about. Spoilt ballot papers are no longer counted and compulsory voting has been discussed. Why?"
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I don't think politicians could care less whether or not most people vote, just as long as they get a majority of the votes that are cast (and a reasonable majority of them).
I used to agree that everyone should be obliged by law to vote, but have since changed my mind. I have recently come around to thinking that it's probably better if people who aren't interested enough to vote don't, because in the long run they probably do more harm than good.
Speaking personally as a rational liberal, I haven't yet decided who to vote for.
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329 Its_an_Outrage wrote:
"I don't think politicians could care less whether or not most people vote, just as long as they get a majority of the votes that are cast (and a reasonable majority of them)."
You've just contradicted yourself ever so slightly with that statement. Reasonable majority of how many voters?
Suppose only 20% of the total electorate turned out to vote. How could the MPs and the Media consider this country has the mother of all parliaments and the winning party had a mandate to govern? They'd be the laughing stock of the rest of the world.
Postal votes (wide open to fraud) were introduced to try and get the turn out up. Spoilt ballot papers stopped being counted because it wouldn't look very good if there were more of them than the MP voted in.
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All the MPs caught out so far have said it was either a 'mistake', or 'within the rules'. So, if within the rules, why are they paying moneys back, and if a mistake, how did they get paid in the first place?
Could we PLEASE BE TOLD about the committee or dept that supposedly has been checking these claims, do you only get a job in or running it if you keep quiet?
As for the Speaker, apparently he will 'have to go' - when that happens, they'd better have a plumber and a doctor ready, he'll have superglued his back end to his doubtless gold-plated loo seat (paid for on expenses).
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I think what most of the MPs have got wrong with their claims is that expenses should be to ensure that the person is not financially disadvantaged by carrying out their job. Unfortunately for them, many have seen it as a gravy train to top up money they would otherwise have spent to gain a greater degree of luxury or financial benefit and thanks to the whistleblower this has been brought to the public eye. Just a thought, but the government and other bodies actually encourage whistleblowing when it is for the public good - or did until it was at their 'expense' it seems !
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Who said... "Things can only get better"? Now they can!
What sticks in my nose what would have happened if there were NO Daily Telegraph we all would have been no wiser and things would have carried on in the same old way in a trough made for two.
Surprise, surprise how they all came out the woodwork and they still expect us to trust them. The Telegraph as shown them ALL for what they are - nothing but a lavatory seat and a bunch of nappies!
Yes they are to blame but the root cause is the very person who released the claims... "Ah thats OK bud you can claim for a bog seat" Who the heck was in charge here because any reasonable person would tell em to get on their bike... they are to blame because they took advantage.
David Cameron I'm afraid just wanted to be first on the spot in being seen to do something - why the heck didn't he do something earlier?
Aren't they all sorry now, but they wasn't before>
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