He failed to lead
In the end, he had no choice.
If Michael Martin had not decided to resign as Speaker, he would, eventually, have faced a formal motion of no confidence.
Denied that debate yesterday, MPs from all sides expressed their lack of confidence in him in the only way left open to them - telling him to his face that he was part of the problem and not the solution.
The Speaker's position depends on his unquestioned authority over the House of Commons. Michael Martin's authority finally died yesterday.
Some will complain that he has been made a scapegoat for the failings of individual MPs.
Others will insist that this Glaswegian sheet metal worker was the victim of class-based prejudice and snobbery.
There is some truth in both those charges.
However, the reason he has been driven from office is much more simple than that. At a time when the Commons desperately needed leadership, he failed to lead.
He failed to see this crisis coming.
He presided over the system which encouraged MPs to fiddle their expenses or to claim them to the max.
He wasted time and money on fighting calls from taxpayers to see what MPs were doing with their money.
He did little to stand up to those MPs who resisted reform.
His reaction to the publication of MPs' expenses was to call in the police and to attack those MPs who criticised him, rather than using his position to apologise to the country or to speak to MPs on behalf of the electorate.
Michael Martin acted too often as the shop steward of the Commons and too rarely as if he held one of the highest offices in the land.
When the Commons was exposed as indulging in old-style Spanish practices, the shop steward simply had to go.
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Hopefully your next blog entry will lead with the title "They failed to lead". One down, many to follow...
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#91 badgercourage
"If "democracy" means government by the people it's arguable that there has never been a democracy anywhere in the world in any substantial state or city"
Exactly - but it's amazing how many people rush to defend something they think they have - without actually checking what it is they actually have.
Democracy is a word which has been dirtied by the so-called Democratic systems around the world.
It's the same way people mis-conceive 'anarchy' as being 'chaos' - but it actually means 'without a ruler' - in line with Monarchy (one ruler), oligarchy (ruled by the few) - which co-incidently seems to be how we're actually ruled here.
I mean with all the vote rigging scandals and the lack of transparency over the years - can we even believe that the results actually reflect the people's will?
More people abstain from voting than vote for the 'winning party' in this country - doesn't that scream 'this system isn't representative'.
It's convenient to blame the voter for this - but I blame the people who have the money to stand, because out of the 600 or so MP's, there is only a handful I would be inclined to vote for - and sadly none of them stand in my area.
....and MP's seriously think that 'tinkering with the expenses system' is going to solve anything?
This is a crisis of confidence in our leaders - sparked by the expenses revelations. All expenses provide is the spark - but this has been a long time coming.
We started with the speaker - now it's time to move on to the rest of the 'rats in their nest'
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What on earth does this matter have to do with class warfare?
Betty Boothroyd manged to hold high office without the same slurs.
People are dissatisfied with Mihale Martin because of his performance not his class.
Just as they are dissatisfied with Gron Brown because of his performance...
I rest my case.
Dissolve parliament.
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Nick, let's hope he is the first and not the last to go.
The only irony is that he is now likely to be elevated to 'the other place' and be able to carry on as before.
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The Speaker had to go he was trying too defend the rotten system.
Give the people a General Election!
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Nick
He was, quite simply, the wrong choice in the first place and many people said so at the time.
In office he was too often seen to be not up to speed; resistant to change; partial; and peevish whenever he didn't get his own way.
Yes, some of the criticism had a whiff of snobbery but if you can't stand the heat...
Will his expenses now be revealed?
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The speaker is such an important role, I would like to see a non-party political representative in place.
One who uses their judgement more and protection of colleagues less.
There have been so many reasons why Michael Martin should have gone, however, I cannot see GB wanting such an important ally gone before the elections.
Otherwise how can Gordon continue to use PMQ's as his weekly party political broadcast.
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"Some will complain that he has been made a scapegoat for the failings of individual MPs.
Others will insist that this Glaswegian sheet metal worker was the victim of class-based prejudice and snobbery.
There is some truth in both those charges."
Oh come on Nick, where do you get this class issue thing from?
Surely considering how much he earns and claims it should be the working class that despise him for the new labour hypnocracy he takes part in?
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Nick,
You should know by now with this shower of a government. Read the small print first! If Mr martin is ennobled or given a huge pay off the public's revulsion over parliamentarians will not only continue but escalate. All MPs intending to canvas on the stump in the forthcoming elections will face a very hostile public. Everyone I have spoken to are united in their contempt.
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Lets hope the first of many to step down.
Better still, call an election.
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OK - technical question....
As I understand it, the whole of the next day's business after a Speaker resigns is taken up with selecting a new one. So does that mean no PMQs this week? And then it's recess for a week....
Isn't it convenient for Gordon that the timing of the resignation means that he won't have to answer PMQs for at least another fortnight now, especially since it is highly likely that a new Speaker may actually have the bottle to make him answer a question?
Had Speaker Martin resigned yesterday (as the smart money seemed to be suggesting), then a new Speaker would have been in place by the end of today, and PMQs would have gone ahead tomorrow as normal. Gordon would have hated that....
Or am I just being cycnical?
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He is not the only one 'hanging on' too long.
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"was the victim of class-based prejudice and snobbery."
If he had done his job, if he was good at his job, if he had even known the laws and rules about his job he would still be doing it.
No-one cares about his background it's just the Speaker who keeps bringing up this falacy to try and divert the attention away from the fact he was the worst speaker in living memory.
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"Others will insist that this Glaswegian sheet metal worker was the victim of class-based prejudice and snobbery.
There is some truth in both those charges."
What a load of nonsense! David Mellor said on 5 Live yesterday morning about how George Thomas, one of the most admired and respected Speakers in modern times had grown up with his widowed mother and siblings living in a basement under a miner's house in South Wales in the most horrendous poverty. Yet he fully understood and respected the responsibility of his office and acted accordingly and he had the full and total respect of MP's from all sides as a result. Martin was a poor Speaker not because of his background but because he was a tribal Labour man who put the interests of members above the reputation of Parliament. He is the one who ignored legal advice and went to the high court to try and prevent the release of the expenses data, probably because he knew what horrors it contained.
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Again we have debate cut off in 'mid sentence'...
Speaker Martin is not the only person who should be looking at their duties and what the tax paying public expects!
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I was under the impression that one of the first duties of the Speaker was to protect Parliament as against the Crown (i.e. the Government). Surely the writing was on the wall when Speaker Martin was so fulsomely endorsed by Mr Gordon Brown some time ago.
Maybe I am being naive and all that was history, but do we live in better times now?
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From a rational voter's and taxpayer's incentive: CLASS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT
When you're not up to the job, that has nothing to do with your postcode
If you fail to make the final in the 100m competition at the Olympics, you just won't win gold, and you shouldn't no matter from which background you are.
Martin lost all credibility and lost all sympathy to get the benefit of the doubt. He was beyond doubt on the wrong side: he let this expenses culture fester and showed no leadership to change it, he tried to exempt it all from FoI, he arranged for a nice exit payment, he arranged for his son to get his constituency seat and he fired one of his previous PR gurus who advised a change of the expenses handling (link provided)
http://www.airsupremacy.co.uk/blog/?p=153
Those who spin this as class warfare are the worst perpetrators of it.
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Right outcome but the role of the Clerk to the Commons should be examined critically as it is obvious there was a near total absence of assertive advice and challenge by the Fees office to the troughing tendency of Members. As far as Labour M.P.'s are concerned the behaviour of some of them is appalling with the only pathetic mitigation that the ethos of accumulating wealth by whatever means is entirely in tune with the beliefs of New Labour!
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Nick, You write as if the Speaker has already resigned, but I understand an official statement to the House has yet to be made later today.
How ironic if his departure has been communicated by a leak.
If it is true, the Speaker's departure will make very little difference.
It is quite right that expensesgate has been exposed. It's a huge scandal, but the real story is the disaster facing our economy thanks to Brown.
Meanwhile MPs are happy to let the Speaker take all the flak because it takes the pressure off them. Also from Labour's point of view, it means the press has stopped focussing on the economy
We will see what the Speaker says. The wolves are circling and it's all rather nasty. But if MPs (particularly Labour) actually cared about the state of the country, they would be devoting their efforts to getting rid of Brown.
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Nick,
Thank you for a good and well written piece. In some ways I have some sympathy for what Austin Mitchell said that it wasn't his fault. True, but he was completely out of his depth in this situation and this was an inevitable "first step" to clearing up the mess.
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#17
"I was under the impression that one of the first duties of the Speaker was to protect Parliament as against the Crown (i.e. the Government)."
I think that you are not looking at this quite literally enough, the "Crown" is not the Government, although the Government does act on behalf of the Crown - hence why the Crown's representative (Black Rod) is denied entry to the Commons by the Speaker(s officials) when the Monarch demands that they attend his/her presence in the Lords.
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Nick
Sorry but you really are totally out of touch with the real world.Do you actually believe that us the taxpayers believe that Mr Martin is the victim of class welfare or a scapegoat? He has only been kept in his position through his stance as the commons "shop steward" by appeasing alll parties.
Also lets not forget that he was a sop appointment by the commons to one Gordon Brown by our then PM. The man has been out of his depth from day 1 and finally the truth is out. He was the man supposed to be upholding the integrity and impartiality of the house of commons.He has absolutely failed on both counts. Never has one of your articles so annoyed me through its bare faced apology to this individual. Let us hope that our next government starts to investigate costs of expenses in all our public bodies to save the 70 billion currently wasted on Quangos,special advisors etc.
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ExpatDinosaur (21)
Wow, you're even more OM than The Guardian! If your salary is paid by the taxpayer, which I suspect it is, I'm at least not contributing to it.
By the way, please note that again Brown failed to take the lead (please, don't hide behind the parliamentary rulebook) and failed to grasp how angry taxpayers are!
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When Mr. Martin leaves his post, he will do democracy a big favour in this country. And that is because the will-he-go or will-he-hang on argument was beginning to deflect the hunters from their real and legitimate quarry : the expenses-abusing MP's themselves. Nothing and No-one should stand in the way of the retribution they so richly deserve. Apologies will not suffice. Writing cheques will not suffice. Jail is the penalty some of them have courted and jail is the fate they must now share. And for those whose actions amount to greed rather than criminality; they should be discarded by the political parties that they have so blatantly failed.
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None of the four 'favourites'for the role of speaker will have an ounce of legitimacy if anyone of them takes on the role.The reason is simple - they were all fully aware of what was going on, as was Cameron, Clegg and Brown.Indeed at least two of them have been the subject of criticism over the issue of reckless and irresponsible use of taxpayers money.
The use of every penny of taxpayers money should be fully transparent to every member of the public. A good start would be with The Royal Household, and the House of Lords,they are real professionals at spending taxes contributed by hard working families.
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#21
"he [Martin] was completely out of his depth in this situation and this was an inevitable"
Indeed, as I said in that other blog (that the BBC has cut down in it's prime...), it was his inability to do his job that did for him, not the expenses issue - quite frankly, a 'man of his experience' (to coin the phrase he use yesterday) should have known what type of motion and where it will stand on the order paper without having to take advice from a Clark, it's a basic understanding that is required for the job. Had the Speaker only been in the job 8 weeks then most would coincide that advice might need to be sort, but for someone who has been in the job 8 years and that after 22 years as a MP it's just not acceptable.
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How about a Poem for the Ex-Speaker:
'Ordure, Ordure'
There goes Mick Martin, back o'er the border,
No longer will he say "Order, Order",
Expenses for the rich, all claiming for more,
And letting the Plod break down Damian's door,
A failure as Speaker, and now it's his time,
All confidence lost due to all of his crimes.
His partisan ways a disgrace to the Chamber,
He gave Opposition MPs the cold shoulder,
Though yesterday he tried to plead to the masses,
He'd always just tried to make war between classes
Though MPs all cheer as his time approaches,
They should know it won't save the other cockroaches.
The Speaker refused to turn his course,
He waffled on while faith was lost,
So though his passing is no great shakes,
Knowing he's next the Prime Minister quakes.
Dungeekin
(With apologies to W H Auden)
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In describing Mr. Martin as a scapecoat, I was not suggesting that he was innocent. He was guilty of at least trying to cover-up something which needed to be revealed. But he was punished in the hope that others, far more guilty would escape punishment. That is why I described him a scapegoat, and I still do. I believe that his resignation will take some of the heat out of this expenses scandal and that as a result focus will be lost and some of the baying pack will get away scott-free when they should be sacked.
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If class based snobbery has contributed to his downfall who are we to expect to take his place, what about Brian Sewell MP or Dr David Starkey MP?
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lets face it he should never have been appointed in the first place... he was put there as a socialist placeman, he was never impartial, just need to watch PMQ's to see that.....We need a totally impartial speaker, honour is more important than class......
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You may recall last year when Mr Martin was in hot water over his and his wife's expenses, he fought tooth and nail to retain his publicly-funded index-linked 'life' pension.
It automatically entitles him to half his ministerial salary, regardless of how long he has served. Do you think he had a premonition?
By the way, both Mr Brown and Lord Chancellor Jack Straw, the only two others in the land who had the same perk, changed their pension arrangements to a final salary, but not Mr Martin.
I imagine he's stepping down rather than being fired, so shades of Fred the Shred.
OK, a different financial scale, but arguably he's watched over just as big a crisis and one that will have lasting ramifications well after RBS has been repackaged and sold off to a global bank
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Michael Martin acted too often as the shop steward of the Commons and too rarely as if he held one of the highest offices in the land.
More like shop steward for Gordon Brown and the Labour Party. He was voted in for partisan reasons and behaved in partisan fashion. Just another example of the downgrading of Parliament since 1997.
Does anybody realy believe that his actions were independent of an uninfluenced by No.10 ?
Now that he has become an embarrassment rather than an asset, except as a scapegoat - it's a matter for the House, not the Government says Gordon (Moral Compass) Brown.
Martin has to go, for sure, but how much better and more cleansing if we were to have an immediate General Election to clear out the stable of existing MPs and have a new Government as well as a new Speaker.
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Well this all goes to underscore what a 'trivial' matter these MP expenses really are - as Stephen Fry so sagely told us all a few days ago!!
I mean, wars and things like that are important, not silly little stuff like our parliamentary system crumbling to pieces!
And it's all those damned journalists fault! Why these MPs should be practically canonised for their integrity and morality!
Or, perhaps not.
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Nick
I have mixed feelings regarding speaker Martin, but now he's been hounded out, so it doesn't matter too much, I have to say that I admire him for the years he has been a MP and obviously a well liked MP otherwise he would never have been the speaker,I feel that really he was never the man for that particlar job, but nevertheless I also feel that he has been made a scapegoat, yes he was to a point guilty but not even in the same class as some of them, but as I say he's gone now and I wish him well.
I spent some time this morning listening to radio five were Cameron was being questioned by the public, well he convinced me of one thing, he is probably the most efficient bandwagon jumper to have ever sat in parliament , I lost count of the times that he said, I was the first to say this or the first to do that.Call an election was his battle cry, no answers to what he was actually going to do with the likes of Francis Maud or a answer to his own claims that he made despite being a multi millionaire.
What a wonderful time to call for a election, in the midst of a world recession and with all this going on regarding expenses an ideal time to leave the country rudderless, its the statement of a novice.
He's hoping,that he can prevent the disclosure of second jobs coming to light,unless he can get into power to prevent this, which will inevitably damage the Tories. It isn't going to work Dave your attempts to show that you are man of the people are so transparent that its becoming a joke, but it isn't really funny it just shows that there is no alternative government, and that in itself is not good for the country.
Maybe later in the year there should be an election but with every MP who has made a unreasonable claim not even to be allowed to stand.This will give the untarnished MPs a chance to prove their worth whatever party they come from but with a wage that gives them a chance to have dignity,and prevents the house being turned into a millionairs club.
Getting back to the speaker I think that the deputy speaker would be a great choice and also Madam deputy speaker, but unfortunately I don't think their eligible.
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The simple truth was that looking at his bumbling performance yesterday when a true `tour de force' was required displayed the reality that Mr. Speaker Martin was well out of his depth and close to drowning.
How long he has been out of his depth I will leave to the historians, but it needs to be made clear that being a political placeman is not enough in what is the highest office in the land that a commoner can aspire to without being in government.
I suggest that the Commons think very hard as they appoint his successor. If they get that wrong as well then they would have turned a constitutional crisis into a disaster.
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I agree that Lord Tonypandy (formerly George) former speaker was a truly great speaker and worthy of that office despite or perhaps because of his inauspicious beginnings.
In those days we didn't see or hear of the workings in Parliament so often and we certainly didn't have "our say". The internet was not yet available to all, nor was there wall to wall TV ("moving wallpaper" so to speak). Rightly or wrongly the manjority had a sort of trust and let them get on with it - what the eye doesn't see the heart doesn't grieve over so to speak. Naive probably but that's how it was. Easier in some ways and definitely less complicated.
We are living in uncharted and extraordinary times and God knows how it will pan out or the speed with which the public will become disenchanted with new arrangements and start baying for blood again.
But that is life as we now know it as we move forward. It is difficult to trust anyone because we are all human and all fallable. Life and politics will never be perfect but how boring if it would be if it were!
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Nick,
Do you always have to spin the Labour Party line every time - the typical Leftist smoke and mirrors that he was made a scapegoat and that this was because of prejudice and snobbery. Both George Thomas and Betty Boothroyd were well liked and respected in the Commons, nothing to do with their working class backgrounds but because of their integrity and wisdom.
Speaker Martin was simply a party man put into a position well above his capabilities. He showed no interest in the job other than the perks that came with it. Earning 142K and in a lavishly decorated grace and favour home he still felt entitled to claim a 'second home allowance' on his constituency home back in Edinburgh and has used his position to promote the interests of his family.
It is an utter disgrace that under his supervision the fees office has colluded with MPs to maximise their expenses. And NO NO NO to those people who say that MPs are underpaid - they are not. They are among the best paid MPs in Europe and have consistently offloaded their responsibilities to Brussels, reduced their own working hours, yet increased their own salaries and have a huge pension entitlement to boot. Compare their earnings to what a pensioner is supposed to live on!!
Their claims are down to greed not need. Speaker Martin is an example of that. We simply cannot afford these parasites and need to review Council fat cats earnings downwards not MPs salaries upwards!!
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A total disgrace to the office of Speaker. He needs to go asap as does the current Government. If Brown had one shred of decency, he would ask for a dissolution of Parliament and call an election.
One can dream, I suppose!
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#25
"Jail is the penalty some of them have courted and jail is the fate they must now share"
Nah, they will never go to jail, why, would you vote for Christmas if you were a turkey, there is a distinct lack of jail space in the UK and I doubt any MP will vote to build any more with this hanging over their necks!... [/irony]
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It is absolutely right that this political dinosaur with his angry shop steward approach should go and that a new, respectable, forward-thinking person takes over. The new Speaker should be squeaky clean and someone who is respected all round. Maybe a well-liked person who is nearing the end of their political career like Kenneth Clarke.
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I'd like to pick up on some issues raised in the previous thread that, of course, is now closed - one of the points. Another example of the mods acting like Big Brother. Does Nick know or approve of this action?
A point has been raised about the possible slection of Martin's son as his successor. Hopefully the voters will sort that one out when the opportunity occurs.
Another point was raised about having a professional speaker. This has merit. It seems to me tha the constituency represented by the Speaker loses out to some extent since he cannot, by reason of his position, act like other MPs in the house. This would have the added benefit of removing this important post from the realm of party politics.
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18#
How true. Class does, indeed have nothing to do with it.
Unfortunately, the class warriors in the PLP have only got this particular straw to grasp at.
As for the House of Lords... so much for Bliar reforming it. Get rid of one load of ennobled cronies (the hereds) and replace it with another bunch of cronies, who will then sell amendments for cash.
The atmosphere seems to be getting quite volatile at the moment... looks like something is being planned for saturday, akin to what happened in Iceland... have a look at Guido's or Old Holborns blog for more info. Maybe volatile isnt the right choice of word... how about "febrile"?
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Nick,
With our parliament in utter disarray, and our government refusing to call a general election to satisfy public demand, is it feasible that the Queen could dissolve parliament?
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Spot on Nick, he behaved exactly like a shop steward fron the bad old days. The snobbery excuse is just another throwback to that era with it's class driven politics of public sacrifice for the many, while the few enjoyed the trappings without actually caring. Martin supporters present him as a victim of predjuidice, when in actuality he is simply not up to the job. A typical apparatchick promoted above his level and unable to function effectively. The farcical performance yesterday by Martin after 10 years in the job illustrates how little he actually understands. How could he not see those questions coming and adequately prepare himself? At least then he could have looked competent and knowledgable.
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Does this not exemplify the murky state of politics in this country?
Several hours before an announcement is to be made to our elected leaders in their formal place of assembly, the media can tell us what is going to be said. Under FOI, Nick, are you going to tell us who briefed whom? Was the briefing initiated by the media or by a politician? If so, who?
Maybe we should just dispense with all these frivolities like parliaments and elections and just let Paxman, Murdoch and rest of the Media Grandees feed us with pre-screened partly-digested tidbits now and again, just to maintain the illusion we have some interest in the matter.
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Nick,
I find myself way down on the list who have stated that your 'victim of class snobbery' claim is completely without basis. Please provide evidence of one MP or member of the public who held this view.
Michael Martin was out of his depth and even before MP's expenses became the flavour of the week his affairs had been severely questioned. He therefore simply did not have the authority or ability to have the confidence of the public or Parliment.
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Nick,
Come on lets have more about the timing of this and PMQ's etc and the elections in June.
There is more to this than meets what you are actually reporting ?
Timing and events and promises for the future are all important here.
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Simple Points
1) The Speakers departure is the beginning of the exodus of unacceptable MP's, not the end
2) Michael Martin should not be rewarded with a peerage - he failed to provide leadership or moral direction at a time of national crisis
3) Constantly going back as some MP's are and saying 'Its not in the House of Commons way of doing things' is NOT acceptable. The rules are meant to serve the nation not the other way round. If it's broke, mend it
4) A General Election should be called to allow us the opportunity to sweep away the dross infesting our public life
5) a Constitution should be drawn up
And thats just the beginning
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Not good enough Mr Speaker!
Why announce a resignation is to be made? If you are going go and go now! What you are doing here is destabilizing the entire system leaving everyone in limbo, instead of 'lets get on with the job' and besides a new Speaker might want things done differently.
Being the 'back legs' of the Commons not once did we here you ask 'Who signed the cheques' in the expenses issue and it is with interested seeing what is on your recites, or will THEY be blacked out like it would have been if you have your way?
By staying you are prolonging the agony, lets get the things done and the house back in order.... If I was doing the job I would expect to see independent auditors, along side the Taxman and the bailiffs with Judges on standby. Why wasn't it stopped and attempted to be concealled?
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Based on the current status quo, perhaps the best person to be the speaker of the House should not be an MP. Maybe we should have a Judge, QC or barrister. Who better to know about upholding the law than Judges, after all they are the people who would know the Constitution best.
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Nothing here to explain the part Brown played in the demise of his pal or exactly when speaker Martin will go - though you are getting to the root of the reasons why he couldn't hang on!
I would suggest it's all down to tribal loyalties but Brown faced a stark choice - either let the speaker go or Brown would have been dragged down with him.
The issue now is when will he quit - leave it until that general election or quit now and risk a risky by-election? The money's on before the summer recess. Does that mean an early election?
http://theorangepartyblog.blogspot.com/2009/05/in-name-of-gord-go.html
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...and btw, he can take that poncey outfit with him as well!
We don't need that type of tradition anymore. Scrap all the other outfits, scrap the wigs and above all scrap the titles and the ermine. Speaker Martin may have been seduced by all the pomp crap that goes with the current parliament and he probably deluded himself that he was more important than the position of the office he held.
The people on here simply demanding an election are also either deluded or have some vested interests in the current system being maintained.
We need a completely new system. And we need it now.
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He should never have been Speaker in the first place: when his story is written, I hope people draw attention to the appalling partisan nature of his election, that broke with convention and ensured that the house elected someone without the widespread support required.
Also, it has nothing to do with class really. Betty Boothroyd was hardly born with a silver spoon in her mouth, and was a woman to boot, but never was a word said about her because she managed it all with no major issues.
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Now there are lots of calls for a General Election.
The Tories slogan is 'Time For Change' which implies that a change of the governing political party will somehow solve our current problems.
It will not because there are deep underlying 'structural' faults with the political system in this land.
The Scots and the Welsh have shown the English a way forward by devolving power away from the centre.
This process will continue if the Scots vote for full independence in November 2010, which incidentally will probably mean that 'Dave' will be the last Prime Minister of Britain and, by default, the first Prime Minster of England.
Even if the Scots do not take that step in November 2010, I believe the tide of political history is flowing that way and that we will eventually witness the 'United Kingdom' fragmenting back into its primary constituent countries.
It would be better to start planning for that political outcome now but there are very powerful vested interests that wish to defy the will of the home countries peoples, especially the English, and continue with the zombie political entity Britain for as long as possible.
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#37
"I suggest that the Commons think very hard as they appoint his successor. If they get that wrong as well then they would have turned a constitutional crisis into a disaster."
There is an argument for MPs to ask for the two deputy Speakers to 'man the fort' until the next General election (which is now less than 12 months away, and a great slice of that is taken up by the summer recess) and then a new Speaker be elected after - many of the electorate do not consider that any MP has a mandate now, hence the numerous calls for a general election (calls for which I do not agree with), thus any Speaker elected now will not have the mandate of many electors never mind MPs...
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I see Mr brown has declared 'No Labour MP who defied the rules on expenses will be allowed to stand at the next election'.
As i understand it many MPs who the public feel are guilty of wrong doing
are not actually in breach of the rules of the house. So it seems a rather empty statement.
Moving on to the speaker, Mr Martin's position was clearly untenable given his costly efforts to prevent mps expense details being released.
As for a replacement, there is one back bench MP. John Mann (labour but not associated with New Labour) who saw this crises looming and has acually campaigned for a number of years for reform of the expenses system and is on record as doing so. To me he seems the most sensible potential candidate, which probably means he hasn't got a snowballs...
One final thought, there is no point in holding a general election until all aspects of dodgy MP behaviour are out in the open, so its imperative that all mps accross all parties declare their earnings & hours worked in second jobs. Then,alongside complete disclosure of all expenses, the public may finally be in a position to decide which MPs are worth keeping and which should go.
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Let this be known as the Glorious Revolution 2009. The restraint of the Public and the Monarch is to be commended so far, but to underline the seriousness of this event Martin and MP's found guilty if not jailed must be ejected without Honour ot Favour and NO Pension.
This is only right under the circumstances, reflecting the public mood and gravitas.
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Seems to me that the only 'class' here was money. For years Labour has made it a point to point out that the conservative are the party for the rich toffs.
What can they now say when the number of Labour MPs have abused the expenses system when representing the working class.
It is human nature that all human beings want to have a better life and
more money to be able to do that.
The current Labour party has wanted to achieve everything the Conservatives achieved and lo and behold once they get there they have now done what they use to accuse the Conservatives of being.
The invite by Gordon Brown of Margaret Thatcher to tea at Number 10 was very telling.
PM needs to be the next "scapegoat".
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Grand (36)
So you dont figure that MP's of all parties arent already turning parliament into a millionaires club, by using public funds? Geoff Hoon building up a portfolio of properties worth 1.7M?
I fail to see what second jobs have to do with anything, so far as the shadow cabinet are concerned. There is no rule in place to say they cant. So long as it does not comprimise their parliamentary commitments to their constituents. As you are no doubt aware, political veteran that you are, you only have to give up second jobs, directorships etc, when you are part of the GOVERNING party, which Cam's lot havent been for 12 years.
And we havent yet got onto the Lords where you can still have connections to other jobs and industrial sectors. You may be familiar with the name of Lewis Moonie. If not you should be, especially when you consider how much money EDS make out of government IT services.
And, what has Cameron being a millionaire already got to do with anything? Er, hello mate... Shaun Woodward, Geoffrey Robinson... neither of them are skint. Both are multimillionaires. Who gives a stuff how much money someone has got so long as they have the integrity and the honesty to do the job?
Sorry mate. I know you enjoy this agent provocateur stuff, but its that old green eyed monster that keeps on shining through doesnt it? Just cant shake off the fact that life aint fair and equal... and sometimes, just sometimes, those who were born into money or status just need to be brought down a peg or six, dont they?
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The question is will he be rewarded for failure?
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The departure of Martin is no solution through a sacrificial lamb.
He was the fig leaf behind which some MP's were hiding. We now have clear line of sight on all of them and there is nowhere to hide.
Westminster is said to be the "Mother Of Parliaments".
That maybe true BUT she is now a clapped out old lady sat in a corner soiling her self.
She has now become a foul smelling shell of her former self and needs to be renewed.
This can only be done by purging the MP's who are guilty of fraud and deception.
This needs to be done by an election with enough time for each electorate to scrutinise their MP.
No more sending things into long grass , call the election and lets get through this pain ASAP.
Then we can sort out the financial disaster and all of the other Labour train wrecks
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Nick,
You hit the nail on the head when you said that he failed to lead. I am not bothered whether people think he's a scapegoat or whether people have something against him or if people have come out in support of him.
It comes down to the fact that with his words, behaviour and attitude he failed at a time when he could have used his position to take parliament in a better direction but instead he criticised those that wanted change and used his powers to target those that wanted to share information with the public.
He's not the speaker of the House, he's the guard dog who seems to be more concerned with protecting corrupt MPs with no regard for the public.
I agree that he should be the first of a list of people.
But when do the public get to put a vote of no confidence in parliament and democracy on the agenda????
Instead, we have people that when the public scream in anger they pretend they can't hear you and stay on to the bitter end. I once thought that the reason people go in to politics and become MPs is to serve the people and this continuing saga demonstrates time and again that even when they prove to be not serving the public they continue to fight to maintain their positions.
The most shocking element is that all of this probably does more to encourage extremist actions against this country and the government. Now let's create a new show "I'm an MP, Get me out of here" where we can send all the MPs to a horrible place chosen by public vote where they can endure all sorts of challenges chosen by public vote and each week there can be technical glitches with a phone vote of deciding which MP gets to escape forcing them all to remain there another week to endure the same.
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Disappointing it was such hard work for him to go. Important he goes immediately and does not try and "sort things out" (something he has already demonstrated it cannot achieve).
He should step down from being an MP and should not go to the Lords. He has failed (he would not be going otherwise) and thus should not be rewarded (assuming Brown meant what he said when he said it).
His departure is not a solution but will hopefully help others find a solution. His robust defence of the status-quo would have bee a massive hindrance to any solution.
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"Its_an_Outrage wrote:
In describing Mr. Martin as a scapecoat, I was not suggesting that he was innocent. He was guilty of at least trying to cover-up something which needed to be revealed. But he was punished in the hope that others, far more guilty would escape punishment."
He isn't just guilty of trying to cover-up the expenses he is also spent time at the trough himself (and he has let his wife and children have their turn as well).
We are not talking about a man who has refused to use his expenses (and there are MPs out there who haven't claimed for second houses!).
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Personally, I'm fed up with all the bile and vitriol that is being aimed at Michael Martin. And as for all the people commenting on blogs like this one ... well, it's amazing how many "hard working taxpayers" find plenty of time to spout their drivel on the internet in the middle of the working day.
Everybody knew exactly what the system was like; there is no new information of substance in the latest furore. Yes, the system needs changing - it always has - but there is no need for everyone to get so NASTY about it!
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Meanwhile Gordon Brown is quoted to have said "No Labour MP who broke expenses rules would stand at the next election"
Mr Myopic missing the point yet again. What we want to hear is "No MP who abused the expenses system for personal gain would stand at the next election"
Tony Bliar is keeping a very low profile eh? Nothing to do with raising the deposit for his London home by re-mortgaging his constituency (second ) home then claiming the mortgage payments for it on expenses?
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In a sense, the very fact that the Speaker felt that he had to resign this morning shows that the system does, deep down, work. People have been sick to death of a Parliament - and, let's face it, a Government - that is increasingly out of touch and only concerned about its own survival.
Something has happened to lance a boil, and the House of Commons needs new leadership so that it can go back to doing what it does best - represent the British people and hold their elected Ministers to account. Only a new Speaker can do that. However, this is not the end but only the beginning of a reform process which will have to be even more root-and-branch than the Reform Act 1832. The new Speaker has to be an experienced parliamentarian who can enjoy the support of all parts of the House; one of the current Speaker's biggest faults is that he came across as being in cahoots with the Government and the Labour benches. Not good. He also has to be of unimpeachable integrity. I know that many will say that there are not many in the Commons who have such integrity, but there are many good Members who are and who have begun to find their voice. I hope that some other MPs will follow Douglas Hogg's example and say that they too will stand down.
We hear a lot about the sovereignty of Parliament, but that is only shorthand for the sovereignty of the British people. Today we have begun to wrench that sovereignty back for ourselves. MPs have started to realise that we are their employers - they owe us their living, and not the other way around.
This is a sad day for British democracy, but possibly the beginnings of a new age.
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Martin leaving is just the start of this process. Once Westminster has completed an audit of MPs expenses there should be a general election forwith. Only by submitting themselves to the voters can politics move forward.
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I agree with all your summary.
All of our Government and Oppositions must act to restore public confidence.
I have no confidence in the Prime Minister. He seems to be more interested in the world stage rather than sorting out our countries problems.
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When asked about The Speaker Gordon Brown changed the subject and said that all Labour Ministers and MPs found to have broken expenses rules would face deselection from The Parliamentary Labour Party. What on earth does this mean? Hasn't this whole thing been about MPs supposedly staying within rules that were blatantly too generous. It was the rules that were wrong from the outset. They were merely exploited to the max to line their pockets. How can it now be proved that they broke inefficient rules? Hello. The horses have already bolted!
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#59
"As i understand it many MPs who the public feel are guilty of wrong doing
are not actually in breach of the rules of the house. So it seems a rather empty statement."
I'm not sure if Brown was talking about Commons rules or Labour Party rules, it's possible that he meant similar rules to that which Cameron has put in place within his own party, full disclosure and publication etc.
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He failed to lead ... this also applies to Gordon Brown. When will we hear about his departure?
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This is getting, may be has got, to the point where the Government cannot rule. I notice the Her Majesty is said to have expressed concern. I doubt she'd risk letting that get out unless things were getting quite hairy.
I for one am feeling quite intensely about this, and i suspect plenty of others are too. This just isn't going away no matter how much scapegoating or apologism goes on. Yes, Martinhad to go - apart from anything helse he's been a rubbish Speaker all along, and not unmired in the past. Really, though, the clear picture is that Parliament as a whoel, and the majority party in particular, are nothing more than thieves, and that they are united only in their determination not to be budged by the opinion of mere voters. The thing is, this nation has always be slow to anger but woe betide those who do so, and I fear that's what has been achieved. Lumping this on top of all the other insults, incompetence and the connivance with big business that has got us into an awful recession is pure TNT. Will they reall wait until blood is running. Mind you, now they've got their new paramilitary police, as road tested at G20, perhaps that's why they feel so cocky?
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"grandantidote wrote:
Maybe later in the year there should be an election but with every MP who has made a unreasonable claim not even to be allowed to stand."
That would certainly be an interesting election as nobody would recognise the Labour front bench as a result, for a start Brown wouldn't be able to stand (seems unreasonable to claim for a second home when you have the rights to live in a grace and favour flat!)
I am not going to even go into the Tory and Lib Dem front bench as I doubt most people could identify them at the moment!
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"Others will insist that this Glaswegian sheet metal worker was the victim of class-based prejudice and snobbery."
Really Nick
I havent seen anyone saying this at all, Have you truly? or is this just another of your own biases coming out?
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"Earlier on today, a woman rang the BBC and said she had heard that there was a hurricane on the way. Well if you are watching, don't worry there isn't".
- Michael Fish October 1987
"Neverthless, what's been revealed so far looks unlilkely to force anyone from office and compared with allegations of fraud that politicians have faced in many other countries this would be regarded as small beer".
- Nick Robinson April 2009
==========
Nick, what you have written above could have been written from the first day Michael Martin's unconventional appointment was forced through by New Labour's landslide majority.
Why has it taken you so long to remove those (red) rose-tinted spectacles and seen what most of us have seen for years.
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"Others will insist that this Glaswegian sheet metal worker was the victim of class-based prejudice and snobbery.
There is some truth in both those charges."
eh? so he was kicked out because he's not a toff? is that seriously your analysis, nick?
That is the most disgusting piece of "journalism" that I've seen from the BBC for a very long time.
Do you at the BBC seriously think you're going to get away with spinning a "tory toff" campaign to get your beloved labour back into power again in 2010?
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By resigning, Michael Martin has made the best of a bad situation. He will most probably get the peerage, the pension and the payoff that he doesn't deserve, thanks to Gordon Brown.
Had he not gone however, pressure would have been put on an already highly stressed government to dissolve parliament. So for now at least, by resigning, he has bought time for the current status quo, but I'm not so sure the public will be happy with that.
Whats really needed is a general election so we can separate the wheat from the chaff, to do some hiring and firing. This isn't the end of the expenses scandal by any stretch of the imagination.
I'm sure over the next few weeks scalps will be offered up in sacrifice in order to keep Gordon Brown in power. I doubt he will be as easy to remove, so we'll have an early summer of buck passing and a reshuffle. The bad news is those Labour MPs that are cast aside will be carrying long knives and will need to protect their own interests at the next election. What better way for a Labour MP to promote themself and hold onto their seat than by taking the scalp of the man people hold most responsible for the political and financial mess we're currently in?
Labour will bomb at the EU elections, which makes Gordo a prime target for someone proffessing to help save the Labour party from annihllation at the next general election.
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in reply to 68.
i don't understand this argument i keep hearing about how its not such a big deal, you seem to be arguing that a little bit of corruption in office is ok.
and as, like myself, you seem to have been waiting for this scandal to break for a number of years you will be aware of the efforts, led by mr martin, to try to supress this information, even to the point that there is specualtion that, had the telegraph not published, its likely that information about MPs flipping their homes would have been suppressed under 'security concerns'.
We have a government that seems to feel it has the right to monitor everthing we do, but when the microscope was turned back on parliament then certain mps they did everything in their power to prevent the public learning how their taxes are being spent.
Orwell similes are overused these days, but in on this issue there are many MPs, the speaker included, who behaved like the pigs in the final lines of 'animal farm'.
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I believe that if he has wrong so he not be the only one forced to quit what about all these other mp's with false claims think its about time the government had clean out and save this country before it is to late.
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While Michael Martin is taking a beating I would like to adjust some quotes from your article, Nick, and apply them to our Prime Minister:
"At a time when the Commons desperately needed leadership, he failed to lead." At a time when the country needed leadership Gordon Brown failed to lead.
"He failed to see this crisis coming." He also missed the banking crisis which has now fallen under the radar thanks to the expenses debacle.
"He presided over the system which encouraged MPs to fiddle their expenses or to claim them to the max." And claimed six grand for a cleaner that he shared with his brother.
"He wasted time and money on fighting calls from taxpayers." Guilty as charged - in fact he still maintains he has a mandate to continue even though he was never voted in as PM.
"He did little to stand up to those MPs who resisted reform." In fact he did so many u-turns they have renamed him The Magic Roundabout.
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As there has to be an election in the next year why not have some-one from the lords sitting as speaker until then,Lord taylor of blackburn and lord truscott will have some free time to do the job.
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One down...
If there is even the remote chance of anyone connected to Labour reading this comment, please be aware that Michael Martin is "small beer" compared to the neolithic incompetence of Gordon Brown and his usless, sycophantic government of zero talents.
Most member so the labour government should be stanidng trial for either fraud or treason, there are no bounds for the depth of my contempt for these people. They have turned our country and parliament into a cess pit
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He didn't even really need to 'lead' - he could have got away with just copying.
The Scottish Parliament dealt with the members' expenses thing some while ago. They did away with the second home allowance and all their members' expenses can be looked up on the internet at the Scottish Parliament web-site.
I mean, this really could have all been avoided.
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Nick,
Spot on.
Unfortunately Gordon Brown is equally inept and he also holds one of the highest offices in the land.
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Nice guy. Poor political judgement. Should have retired after Damian Green.
I agree with Cameron that we need a general election now - even though I won't be voting for him. Only way to draw a line under this.
The obvious way forward is to extend the powers of the Audit Commission to cover Parliament and other national expenditure .
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23 MPs signed the call for him to go.
I pray that those 23 all prove:
a. Not to have been guilty of expenses abuse themselves; and
b. Were not with the majority of MPs that attmpted to keep the expenses details secret.
The angry reaction against those attempting to hide the snouts in the trough has been bad, and to those caught with their snouts in the trough worse, but the level that would be aimed at those who add hypocrisy to to their misdemeanour would be aweful indeed.
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He acted like the shop steward...
because that is his job.
Clearly he only understood the very short term rather than the longer term interest of his comrades.
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#11 Who told you he was resigning with inmmediatly then?
Any opportunity to be cynical..typical of many on these blogs.
Dearie me!!!
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Nick,
Can you ask Gordon Brown at your next get-together to discuss the daily briefing if he will be rewarding the failure of this disgraced Speaker with a knighthood?
To honour the future Lord Mick of the Gorbals with a gong will surely reinforce the club culture that most people in this country are getting all steamed up about and want to be rid of.
As for being a scapegoat, I hope this is not the case and I am sure those who argue this in the blogs will be proved wrong.
Gorbals Mick should be the start; now it's time to get on and purge the rest of the MPs who have been caught out.
Where are the police? Where is HMRC?
When is Gordon Brown going to call an immediate GE so that constituents can question the actions of their local represenatitive and either give them the benefit of the doubt, a clean bill of health or their P45?
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Just a thought how about G.Brown for speaker?
After all he a good listner, and a very effective leader and never just reacts to todays bad news but always has plans for a mew committe or report in the offing. And best of all he has already saved the world so saving the house of commons should be childs play to such a super hero!
And on a persional side it will give him something to do when he loses the next gereral lection.
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Martin was not a victim of anything other that his own complete failure to do the right thing.
His persistent attempts to keep expenses secret were out of kilter with public opinion.
He simply forgot who he works for.
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"78. At 1:24pm on 19 May 2009, Mark_WE wrote:
"grandantidote wrote:
Maybe later in the year there should be an election but with every MP who has made a unreasonable claim not even to be allowed to stand."
didnt G.Brown claim he had saved the world.... does that mean he cant stand... if so we need to get the new rule on the statute books NOW!
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There has been from MPs a lot of 'if we don't have expenses then poor people will be stopped from being MPs' ............ how about using the one of their favourite solutions on themselves. MEANS TESTING. If the MP is already rich they get no expenses at all. If 'poor' then they get the maximum. That way, in theory at least, no-one would be stopped from becoming an MP on the grounds of cost.
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53. joyavie wrote:
Based on the current status quo, perhaps the best person to be the speaker of the House should not be an MP. Maybe we should have a Judge, QC or barrister. Who better to know about upholding the law than Judges, after all they are the people who would know the Constitution best.
Good point, why does it have to be an MP? Change the rule that says it does.
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Watching yesterday's events unfold in the Commons was uncomfortable to say the least. Why in heaven's name the man didn't take the initiative, preempt the Carswell motion and resign I will never know. Did he REALLY think he could outface this? MPs are, if nothing else, a fairly self-regarding bunch and it would surprise noone if they really DID believe that if they 'sacrificed' Martin the public would be appeased. They won't be, but Martin had to go anyway.
More significant, though Nick, is the extent to which the PUBLIC debate is something that will run the course with a few deselections and some mutterings about reform, or whether (as I hope) the public will demand the full works - a 'Great Reform Act' for our age to make our parliament fit for present day purposes. I think we need:
- fixed term Parliaments (why should the PM get to call an election for party advantage?)
- reduce voting age to 16
- proportional representation so that all votes can count
- fewer seats, larger constituencies for direct vote, with some 'PR top-up by list' seats in addition
- an end to Westminster Hall debates, but extensions to 10 minute rule and PMB debates on motions of substance, and a streamlining of committee processes across the House
- transparent, independently verified and open reports on declarations of interest, expenses, extra-Parliamentary duties, and attendance
- a fully elected, small, revising second chamber
- a reformed system of sitting days and hours (not 128 as this session, but 200-220 with the House sitting 9am-6am...after which people travel home (not the pied-a-terre) or go to a hotel)
- a new, transparent petitions system
- a fully enforced 'oath of duty' to the House and to the public (to supplement a largely meaningless 'oath of allegiance' to the Crown), under which an independent judicial panel would judge conduct and suspend MPs for the rest of the session if found to have transgressed.
...and much much more.
Oh, and the new Speaker should chair with an eye on the interests of voters, not MPs. No rhetorical answers, no fillibusters, no evasions, no 're-announcements', no 'pre-announcements', no controlled order paper, no unreasonable restrictions on media broadcast, no hiding behind the exceptions in the FoI Act unless entirely defensible in a court of law.
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You are doing a disservice to shop stewards, they have integrity and honesty, something sadly lacking, at present, in the House of Commons.
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I wonder if the commons will be as packed as yesterday when he makes his statement?
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I agree with much of what Grandantidote has to say. The Speaker issue is a side show and it is the MP's who are most to blame and Cameron is trying to deflect the spotlight and gain some credit. The reality is that he and other leaders have failed to lead. As Cameron clearly didnt understand the nature of his party, his MPs and this Parliament until the Telegraph spelt it out, why should we accept he understands even now the gravity of this situation and what needs to be done. He has zero moral authority, he is utterly unelectable and, in any further investigation, Id focus on him simply because he is clearly trying to con us even more.
Cameron (the heir to Blair) and Clegg (the heir to Cameron) are also an embarrassment as they just trying to out-do each other and yet it's clear neither has the character to be a real leader...they are too easily swayed, lack good judgment, moral authority and foresight, and only now speak out because the Telegraph set the agenda on which they'd spectacularly failed to LEAD and impose some authority. That isnt leadership, its spineless abdication of responsibility. Both are trying to deflect us the tax payers, from scrutinising them the public servants. Parliamnet now needs to a prime, overarching agenda.....resignations and sackings to produce a clean slate prior to a General Election a year from now. That includes party leaders and whips who supported the old system of Parliament where the morally corrupt still think they should dictate to us. That includes now the imperative to focus on MPs second jobs and other incomes. Well also then get an insight into which MP's have been busy earning huge sums elsewhere and yet still felt it necessary to rip-off the tax payer with outrageous claims!!
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Mr brown has declared 'No Labour MP who defied the rules on expenses will be allowed to stand at the next election'.
One of the rules is that the expenses were necessarily incurred in order to enable the person to carry out his/her duties as an MP.
On that criteria, hiring a cleaner to clean your house while you are away would hardly qualify as 'necessary'.
Is Mr Brown suggesting he is going to step down?
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Sorry, Nick. It's got nothing to do with class or nationality. I write as someone born and bred in Glasgow, and to be honest, I find Martin's shambolic performance to be embarrassing.
To Glasgow, to Scotland, to Parliament, and to the country. He is simply "not fit for purpose", and he had to go.
First of many hopefully.
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Brown is being devious. He keeps saying those who have broken the rules will not stand again but even the worst culprits like Blears say they have not broken the rules. Given that the rules were designed to allow them to do what they did this is not surprising. Brown will not take any action. Still must be horrible realising that you were the boss when the once great Labour party came to an ignominious end. Blair must be so happy.
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In reply to comments made @ #86
"he [Brown] was never voted in as PM."
No PM ever has been, we don't have a Presidential style leadership, all PMs are elected to the Commons as the MP for their constituency, not even as leader of their party - it would would be quite possible for a party to be elected as the majority party but loose their leader in the process.
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I would urge everyone who participates on this forum to seriously question the worth and the contribution of all Scottish MPs, like Mr Martin. What benefits are they bringing to the majority of the public? I'll bet there are many MPs, from Scotland, like Martin, who are abusing the system for their financial gain.
Are they worth it?
I seriously doubt it.
I think they are doing nothing more than making up the numbers for Labour, while milking the public purse to line their own pockets.
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I hope and expect that there is no 'retirement bonus' for failure - and be in no doubt, he HAS failed as Speaker.
I heard mention of a possible £100,000 lump sum if he retired at the end of this Parliament (plus, of course, the more than adequate pension).
Let's not have another Fred Goodwin situation whereby he is allowed to leave 'as if' he had served a full term.
I expect you and the rest of the Press to go to town on this, Nick, if such a cosy arrangement is proposed.
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Nick Brown, the Labour Chief Whip, claimed £18800 without receipts. The Tory Chief Whip faces similar allegations. Does anybody seriously think these men can enforce discipline in their parties when they both have their fat snouts firmly in the trough and have refused to apologise.
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Wouldn't it be funny if, after Mr. Brown's statement about Labour MPs who fiddled expenses not being allowed into office, someone managed to prove he had??
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#88
"They [the labour government] have turned our country and parliament into a cess pit"
I well remember people saying the same thing about the Tories in 1996/7 - indeed many would contest that it was the contempt that some (then) Tory MPs had shown for both Parliment and the wider democracy that allowed Blair and 'NuLabour' into power...
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Nick
Whilst were in reform mode i will ask the Question no-one else has yet.
Is it time for the position of Speaker to become directly elected by the Public?
I suggest that all candidates will not be able to be members of any political Party. The Speaker will be elected for a 2 year term. A speaker will be able to stay in office for a Maximum of 4 two year terms.
We will then be able to directly hold the Speaker of the Day to account for his/her actions. No constituency will have to do without its M.P. A truly impartial Speaker will be able to be elected.
Any thoughts?
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I mostly agree Nick, but come off it with the class thing. If he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and was as partisan towards the Tories as Gorbals is towards Labour, do you think for one single minute the Labour party would have tolerated him for so long? No.
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# 98 carrots
Yes, the Speaker's biggest mistake was in giving the impression that he was more concerned about trying to hide what was going on than doing something about it.
It is not unrelated to the Damian Green debacle where the police were brought in to sniff out the 'leakers'.
It is breathtaking to hear MPs lining up to talk about the need for change - as if they are all blameless and getting rid of the Speaker is the solution.
We actually need a change of MPs which can only happen with a General Election.
We need a change of direction. Today's economic figures should give us all cause for concern.
It is said that Emperor Nero 'fiddled' whilst Rome burned. Some MPs are clearly doing the same.
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#92
"The obvious way forward is to extend the powers of the Audit Commission to cover Parliament and other national expenditure ."
Oh no, no way! I've seen the utter waste that goes on in that Commission, the Audit Commission neeeds to be audited themselves never mind auditing anything else/more.
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"WhiteEnglishProud wrote:
A truly impartial Speaker will be able to be elected.
Any thoughts?"
Someone who is truly impartial would probably have zero interest in politics. Even if we don't admit it we all are partial in some way.
However, I do like your idea (although it would be hard to implement) but it would make more sense if the speaker served for the entire term.
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"Boilerplated wrote:
I well remember people saying the same thing about the Tories in 1996/7 - indeed many would contest that it was the contempt that some (then) Tory MPs had shown for both Parliment and the wider democracy that allowed Blair and 'NuLabour' into power..."
I agree, it just goes to show that a party in government has a limited shelf life - after that they start to stink!
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#44 fubarsaubders + others
Many people have picked up on the class aspect of this, fubarsuanders said
"How true. Class does, indeed have nothing to do with it."
I agree it doesn't in the context that Nick puts it - I very much doubt the speakers class background had anything to do with his forced resignation.
However there is one VERY BIG CLASS issue here - and it's a very clear one.
There are only 2 classes - Ruling and working (middle class does not exists, these are merely working class people who live in the hope they wil be given a 'special place' next to the ruling class - known as petit Bourgoisie - sadly they are finding out how much of a dream that was - mainly because it's them who are hitting the dole queue at the moment, betrayed by the Ruling class - again)
This little episode has given people what they need - a clear definition.
The ruling class cannot see what the problem is with MP's expenses, they do not think it's unreasonable to spend thousands of pounds on every day items (like toilet seats for example)
The working class are very angry about the expenses and think they are wholly unreasonable - regardless of what the rules said, they also feel spedning thousands of pounds on every day items is totally unreasonable.
There are your class lines - so decide which side you are on.
Anyone who thinks they don't fall into these categories are apolitical and lack a political concience and have no relevance in the social / political dynamics of this country.
As you can also see there is even a class split within Westminster as some MP's knew this was wrong all along.
Now you watch both GB and DC and in fact NC all jump on the passing bandwagon and all effectively declare themselves 'working class'
The ruling class are fearful of reprisals - they think they can fool us - but we know who's who now, they have defined themselves by their actions.
The battle lines are drawn.
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I think Brown will announce an election at 5.30 today. The Speaker may well stand down at the next election but that may be sooner than he thinks!
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78 mark we
#I am not going to even go into the Tory and Lib Dem front bench as I doubt most people could identify them at the moment!
Oh! I think that most people will recognise them, or they will when they read a full report on expenses, I am in no way exonerating anyone at any level of any party if they stepped over the line they should go lets have something that we have never had before honest politicians in all parties.
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Ok, who's putting in the Freedom of Information request to determine what monies Martin has been promised for his "resignation"? A further request will have to be done regularly afterwards because there might be additional sweeteners after the event. However, the really important question is of course how is Mrs Martin going to get to the supermarket?
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If the speaker had managed to stonewall the freedom of information on the expenses as you and a number of Right Horrible gentlemen have accused him of, they would all be patting him on the back today and praparing their next lot of expenses. Shame on them all!
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It seems that nothing can save Michael Martin.
But who is this guy Carswell, leading the movement to force the Speaker out? I had never heard of him.
But a quick search on Google shows that in 2007-8, he claimed £23,083 as Additional Costs Allowance, which is ranked as equal first for Trotters in the Trough for that year.
Have his expenses been published yet?
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The crisis remains unless/until Parliament is cleared out of the dross and we start again. Voters continue to be treated with contempt for as long as the Government and Parliamentarians cling on to power and their perks under the status quo.
Dissolve Parliament. Call a General Election.
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SCAPEGOAT OR NOT?
Well, he will only be a scapegoat if we (the public) allow this sacking to reduce the anger directed towards ministers.
If we keep up the volley of rage then the sacking of Martin will not be in vain.
No retreat - NO SURRENDER.
This is not the time to take the foot off the pedal, it's the time for REAL change. A time when the historical neck brace on this country can be removed once and for all.
Do it for yourselves, do it for your children, do it for the future of this country.
The parasites need to be combed from our hair.
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A significant proportion of the most blatant extravagant claims appear to have commenced whilst parliament was under the thumb of Tony and (by proxy) Cherie Blair.I would be interested to see if the claims of Herr Blair are published in detail and i suspect Gordelpus wants it too, hence the announcement that the independent scrutiny of MP's expenses would cover the last 4 years. I wonder how many mortgages Tony claimed for??????
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Michael Martin was never good enough for the job, which by convention should have gone to a Consewrvative MP. He was never impartial as all good Speakers have to try to be. He was always partisan, rude, and quick to give the Sub Prime Minister the softest of rides. He was anti reform, and let us not forget he was the man who spent £300,000 of taxpayers money in fighting the publication of MP's expenses in the Courts, when the the obvious beneficiary of publication was the taxpayer. Only someone so truly against reform could have ever thought that made sense. He truly was part of the problem and was most certainly not the person to be part of the solution.
This has nothing to do with Mr Martin's working class origins and has a lot more to do with the fact that as Speaker he was entirely unfit for purpose. He is quite possibly the worst Speaker that parliament has ever seen.He is not a scape goat he is just useless and got his just reward, long overdue at that.
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ORDER, the focus should now turn on:
-whether MPs who pay HMRC for untaxed gains on second homes also file revised tax returns, because otherwise they are merely prepaying their next tax bill rather than paying their dues.
-whether all those food expenses claims shoud be categorised as salary in kind and hence be taxed.
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"but it would make more sense if the speaker served for the entire term."
I was tempted to suggest a full term however things can look very different two years into a parliment than they did at General Election time. A two yearly appointment would mean the public would have a way of signaling there approval/disapproval of the way Parliment is Governing the Country. it would also mean the the Speaker would have to remain focused as he/she would not have time to get to compfortable in there position.
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There is much responsibility attached to leadership. I want a first world government back not the current third world system. Our whole society has become infested with darkness, hopefully once the house is put in proper order this will feed down the system and Britain will become Great again. But our government needs to raise ethical standards in practice at all levels of public life. Hopefully the press will keep the momentum going, when combined with the will of the people, will result in a fairer more equitable society for us all.
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Re - No 3.
RobinJD, I couldn't agree more - this class obsession with the oxbridge set at the BBC is patronising and misleading.
Betty Boothroyd was the most respected speaker for generations.
Labour unconstitutional enforcement of a Labour speaker in '97 makes the unconstitutional enforcement of the speakers departure all the more fitting. What goes around, comes around, Mr Brown!
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There is no question that Martin was defective as a Speaker of the House. That made him a lightning rod for the current furore over expenses. His removal won't eliminate the problems over expenses and the MPs baying for his hide are in for a shock if they believe that is the case.
The reality is that many of the House suffered the delusion that what they were doing was not only within the rules but untouchable - remember how Alan Duncan responded to questions by his fellow panellists on 'Have I got News for You?' "It's great isn't it?" That insouciance is what caused the problem - Martin didn't help but the whole system was based on collusion between a group of people who felt they were underpaid and who had been given the nod that allowances were 'up for grabs' and the Fees office.
When can we examine the wider issue of expenses for office, secretarial and travel - some of those numbers are mind-boggling. When can we examine how many hours a year an MP demonstrably spent on his job in the House, in Committee, in his constituency or on a trip which helped to resolve his understanding of a specific problem?
If you want to save money in the House of Commons, get rid of at least half the MPs and don't bother to replace them.
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I have been appalled at the train of events set off by Tory MP Douglas Carswell. When interviewed on radio 4 about his expense claims, instead of answering, he attacked the Speaker. I thought, typical politician, avoids answering questions about himself and attacks the Speaker instead. I am shocked to see how this "knee jerk" reaction has escalated.
The Telegraph has not published all expense claims and anyway all this would have been in the public domain within a few weeks. This Telegraph exposure has been used most cynically by politicians who have been baying for the blood of a victim. And who is that victim? He is an older man, with an admirable working class pedigree, who felt he was doing his job in representing the views of the house.
The whole episode is shameful. It may be that the Speaker would have resigned in due course, but to force a resignation to deflect the attention from those MPs who have abused an expenses system which dates back to the Thatcher era, in my view, is a political gambit, of which all those who have taken part should be thoroughly ashamed.
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#68 and other this is what they call "GUILTY by ASSOCIATION" and is not based on any sort of fact other than you are an MP therefore you must be x,y and z but certainly not a good MP
something that has been practiced in the family courts since the 1989
children act. It would seem that MP's do not like this type of
(in)-justice.
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If what Nick Robinson says is true then it would seem that Michael Martin has got off very lightly. After all he presided over a system within which it was apparently perfectly acceptable for MPs to claim for mortgage payements on mortgages that no longer existed.
Isn't this criminal?
The essential problem is that we appear to live in a society where no-one challenges anything. All is simply taken at face value, when in fact the very opposite should apply; everything should be challenged. Only that way does a society expose the cheats, liars and fraudsters. And we have certainly heard plenty from them in recent days.
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Nick, there was no snobbery or scapegoat. Gorbals Mick created and upheld a system that allowed benefit cheats to milk taxpayers of ill-gotten money. He also spent hundreds of thousands of pounds of taxpayers money on fighting the freedom of information laws he had helped create to cover the fraud by some MP's.
I sincerely hope he faces police charges now.
PS I notice that Crash Gordon is saying that any MP who "defied the rules" will have to go. By definition then, if you cheated and were caught and apologised and handed back some money you will not have to go. No punishment and no reason to change your ways.
This is a shameful cop-out. No surprises there then. Let's have an election, we can't wait to teach GB a lesson for lying to us on the question of a Europe referendum.
LOJO
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Today Nick I found your report a little confused. On the one hand you say there is some truth in the prejudice and snobbery towards Martin because of his roots as a union leader and on the other you then infer that he was not up to the job of Speaker because of his use of shop steward methods. Therefore you yourself are kind of using his background as an excuse for why he was inept in his job.
However whatever the situation Martin himself should not complain as it has been reported he himself frequently used this working class snobbery and supposed anti Scottish feeling as a tool to put down any who opposed him on issues.
As in my opinion Martin was voted to be speaker by manipulation by the Labour Party in the first place and was never really up to the job from the start, it is with much relief I see him go. I think we will see a much improved Parliament once he has gone.
My only concern is that with the Labour Party having a large majority even though it is a secret vote, that Brown will let it be known who he expects to become speaker. As Labour Party MPs have been subject to being bullied in the past how can we be sure a suitable candidate will emerge this time. My other worry is that highly unsuitable names are comming forward such as Ming Campbell and Frank Field, and whilst these people may be seen as ok they simply are not of the calibre needed in my opinion, not strong enough and too involved with the existing system.
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Politics should be about the single art and science of governing countries affairs. Too often it is seen as a petty tit for tat debating society. A game of one upmanship.
What can be so different and so right or wrong about the different parties who should all have one goal in mind. The route to that goal can't be that much different whichever way you cook it.
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#121 Mark_we wrote
"I agree, it just goes to show that a party in government has a limited shelf life - after that they start to stink!"
I think they stink right from the start - it just takes a while for it to filter through.
If this country votes the Tories back in after the last time then they really will deserve everything they get. I hope the British people will learn that a leopard never changes it's spots.
I don't advocate voting labour either, in fact forget all the mainstream parties alltogether - there simply is no difference between them.
We need to go back to non-party politics, I don't believe there is a risk of the extreme parties taking control - it's a scaremongering tactic to ensure you 'stick with the devil you know'
The reality is that a band of independents would have similar views to the common man - mainly because most independents are 'common men / women' and it's unlikely we would get a rise of facist ideals like in Germany in the 1930's - which remember were heavily boosted by the nationalist feelings following WWI.
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While the national furure expressed over MP'S expenses is warranted and imminent resignation of the speaker is the least gesture by parliamemt in regaining the publics trust and confidence, i am however disgusted by the vast majority of MP'S saying that they have no confidence in Mr Martin. My reason is this, when he was boldly and doggedly trying to blog the publics right to access this information, how many MP's at the time came out to oppose that action? How many of them willingly gave details of their expenses for the period? NONE. Which means they either recognised that he was fighting to save their skins (Labour, Tory, Lib dems and Independents) or knew that they would be in big trouble should it ever come out that this is what they have been up to. And now when they have all smeared themselves with the foulest of stuff, they turn around and say Mr Martin must go as if he was the creator of the system. I think they should all resign!!! the lot of them!!!!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
maybe this intense examination of funding and "baised" some say of the Speaker. Should also be turned on the BBC and hopefully too the Family Courts. As all have issues with fairness, injustice and bias acccording to many
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Class prejudice? Oh Nick, do you really think so? Or don't you think that CLASS goes out of the window when people use other peoples money to improve their own lot in life. I rather think that portrays ALL of them in the same light. dunno about you Nick, but where I come from we call it LOWLIFE.
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#111
"I would urge everyone who participates on this forum to seriously question the worth and the contribution of all Scottish MPs"
The same could be said about Wales or Greater London too - both have their own assemblies...
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Speaker Martin was the victim of snobbery, yes; he was also widely considered too tribally loyal to Labour, or hostile to Tories, especially the better-born. But his fatal flaw was loyalty to the House of Commons as it used to be, supremely self-confident in confronting all comers, whether Crown, Lords, or people, That self-confidence was already undermined when the House was frightened out of openly raising its salaries and instead adopted a system of expenses *intended* to be abused; it finally collapsed when the _Daily Telegraph_ revelations left members not only looking bad but in terror of their constituents. The most important question is not who sits in the Speaker's chair, nor even how members' remuneration can be made more presentable, but whether they can regain the self-belief to stand as a bulwark against democracy or must become mere servants of mass opinion, and on servants' wages.
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There is some truth in both those charges.
No there is not. He is just useless!
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As has been said already you have to question Martin's appointment in the first place. He couldn't even say "Order" in a convincing way which you would have thought would have been the first criteria which would have been considered!
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#127 bananbadger
Excellent invetigative journalism.
It's funny how 'those who shout loudest.....'
If Westminster was a council estate they would have carried out dawn raids - sadly these people actually have the police to PROTECT THEM - not to enforce any laws.
The only thing MP's need protecting from these days is THE GREAT BRITISH PUBLIC.
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Fubar - nice to see you back:
"and sometimes, just sometimes, those who were born into money or status just need to be brought down a peg or six, dont they?"
and what's wrong with that? Surely they shouldn't have it all their own way. Do 'em good to suffer a bit.
PS I'm getting worried - I've found myself agreeing with Flame Pat's last two posts - "Service not self" etc
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"Tributes will be paid at a later date". (Milliband, two minutes ago)
Can you believe these people?
"Cash refunds will be paid immediately" might have meant something.
Gore Vidal got it right about politics: showbusiness for ugly people.
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So there you have it; he's gone.
In a twenty second statement he announced he is leaving in a month.
These people are cowards.
However, you have seen the future; this is how Gorodn Brown will go I shall wager. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Dissolve parliament.
Those without the courage to govern should not be governing.
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Turron
Why are people suggesting dilluting what is left of democracy in this country even further by getting rid of half the M.P's?
It may save a bit of money but It does nothig to enhance democracy in this country. In fact it is a sept in the wrong direction.
If you had suggested a more direct form of democracy with half the present number of M.P's to set the agenda then you may have been on to something.
Instead you are suggesting creating an even smaller elite to Govern us.
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"Others will insist that this Glaswegian sheet metal worker was the victim of class-based prejudice and snobbery."
The fact he, as have several other MPs, disgraced the Parliament and lost the trust of fellow MPs and the public is enough reason for me to want him to leave. I couldn't care less where the person was from or what class - if they do wrong they must be punished. And I'm speaking as a member of a working class family who originally came from Scotland.
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"Others will insist that this Glaswegian sheet metal worker was the victim of class-based prejudice and snobbery."
I think this part is extremely misleading. Now if you had put union organiser or shop steward you would have been closer to the mark. I wouldn't refer to Manny Shinwell as a clothing machinist, so why, unless to portray Martin in a better light do you propagate this myth? There are many politicians from Red Clydeside, starting from humbler beginnings than Martin, who have performed equally demanding tasks without using class as an excuse for their limitations. The difference being, they were willing to grow into the jobs and adapt to changing circumstances. Class is no longer a barrier to growth unless the individual believes it to be or chooses to use it as a shield/weapon.
Purely and simply Martin was not up to the job. By the way, there is no convention of alternating Speakers, this myth started after Betty Boothroyd who was the first Speaker elected not from the governing party
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"WhiteEnglishProud wrote:
"but it would make more sense if the speaker served for the entire term."
I was tempted to suggest a full term however things can look very different two years into a parliment than they did at General Election time. A two yearly appointment would mean the public would have a way of signaling there approval/disapproval of the way"
Wouldn't it be better if there was a clause that if xx% of the population who actually voted demanded it then a GE would need to be called? I.e. if 2000 people voted and you need 50% then 1000 people would need to sign-up to demand a GE.
The Speaker only guides the debates. If the Government is the problem changing the Speaker will have no effect.
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I would point out to all those who stubbornly try to brush this expenses debacle off as 'not as important as wars and things' that we're about to go into a 10 year period of Austerity.
That's 10 years of cutting back, 10 years of financial struggle, 10 years of trying to make ends meet.
Currently most people are still riding the tail of the boom and it hasn't hit them yet.
But when it does - I hope they feel a little differently about expenses being a sideshow or an irrelevant matter.
I suspect the ONLY people on this blog (or any other) who are backing MP's are the MP's themselves (or their employees).
Nobody who has warm blood could ever condone their behaviour.
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130. At 2:19pm on 19 May 2009, Numb-Bum wrote:
A significant proportion of the most blatant extravagant claims appear to have commenced whilst parliament was under the thumb of Tony and (by proxy) Cherie Blair.I would be interested to see if the claims of Herr Blair are published in detail and i suspect Gordelpus wants it too, hence the announcement that the independent scrutiny of MP's expenses would cover the last 4 years. I wonder how many mortgages Tony claimed for??????
--------------------------------------------------
He wasn't called 'Teflon Tony' for no nothin'...
'Tony Blair's expenses shredded'
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3953909.ec
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It's not class warfare: some of the best Speakers of the Twentieth Century were working-class. Martin is a bad Speaker - remember the Damian Green affair? Both Thomas and Boothroyd would have sent the police away with a flea in their ear and told them to come back with a warrant if they came back at all.
Expenses is simply the straw that's breaking the 645 headed camel's back.
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#116
"I suggest that all candidates will not be able to be members of any political Party. The Speaker will be elected for a 2 year term. A speaker will be able to stay in office for a Maximum of 4 two year terms."
Totally unworkable, one of the reasons why 'elder states-people' are made Speaker is because of the depth of knowledge (of parliamentary process etc.) that they need to do the job, anyone coming to the job 'afresh' would be very reliant on the civil service personal of Parliament, a 2 to 4 year term would mean that these civil service clerks would be so relied upon they might as well do the job themselves! Of course, if you only mean that candidates should not at the time of their candacy be members of a political party... But then that would be just a variant on the 'old school - jobs for the boys' way of doing things that you seem to be objecting too.
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What is all this this nonsense about Speaker Martin's resignation deflecting attention away from MPs and their expense fiddling. We're not daft after all. It hasn't diverted my attention. I notice that Gordon Brown has wasted no time however in turning his attention to his errant MPs by stating that if they have broken the rules they will be demoted or deselected. Now that's what I call diverting attention. Empty words from an empty vessel because as we have all gathered by now very few have broken the rules that were in place. Has he not twigged by now that the rules were insufficient? That's why they were so widely abused.
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Class snobbery had nothing to do with Martin's departure. Other Speakers have been from the working classes, and were very much respected. Lord Tonypandy being a notable example.
Martin's problem has always been that he was too much aware of "Mick Martin the Speaker' when he should have been aware of the office he held.
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His snout was as deep in the trough as everyone else's. Let's hope many of them follow!
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It is important having information to hand on the current political situation.
anybody interested in their future should look at www.freedom-of-choice.org.uk where the solutions are on hand. Crime, health, the dreadful waste of money by politicians asking the question - do we need politicians? The answer is NO!
In a proper democracy let the people decide their future.
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I think that the Spanish have good reason to complain about the use of the phrase "Spanish Practices" when the arrangements for Spanish MPs are far closer monitored than they have been for our MPs and Spanish MPs are provided with accommodation if required in Madrid rather than having this absurd "rip off the taxpayer" second homes allowance. I suspect that our European friends will simply put this episode down to "british practices".
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On a more serious note, there is a good reason why Parliament is felt to be unrepresentative and there is consternation among the populous at large about MPs bleating about needing a huge salary, expenses and 2nd home allowance in London. Nigh on half of MPs are lawyers, solicitors or barristers - there is also a large contingent of accountants etc. Despite the Government talking about diversity etc, the above people live in a world outside Parliament in which they are used to living in the lap of luxury and when they get into Parliamnet (because its easier than working and better holidays) they expect to continue to live in the lap of luxury one way or another (beware loopholes in the new independent system - oh what profession is the guy in who is doing the review?). There should be far less MPs - circa 300 sounds about right, they should have a clocking in system to ensure they are present in Parliament and working and attend a minimum number of debates. No MP should be able to vote unless they have spent at least 60% of time in the chamber in the debate. A candidate quota should be placed on each profession and NO career politicians at all - maximum 2 terms, retire at 70 maximum. They should also get a final salary pension, with a modest paarchute payment on leaving Parliament. All MPs should be residents of their own constituency for at least 5 years prior to candidature. The electoral commission should change the rules so that if a candidate of a party wins by more than 3000 votes in an election then the excess number of votes cast for that party in the next election over 3000 should be subtracted from that partys candidate's vote. This would help to ensure that there are no SAFE seats and ALL seats are up for grabs at an election.
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"newtactic wrote:
And who is that victim? He is an older man, with an admirable working class pedigree, who felt he was doing his job in representing the views of the house."
If Martin thinks he has been doing his job in representing the views of the house then he is very much mistaken. All of the people who have stood in his defence have been members of the Labour party while you would expect someone who is supposed to be impartial to have backers from all sides! He has been attacked previously for leaning towards Labour. He failed to defend the House during the Green affair.
This is not some innocent MP who has been thrown to the wolves. Yes, he came from a working class background but thanks to the money he has made after 20 years in the House he has little in common with the working class.
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Nick,
lets hope the Spanish Government don't get caught at any new style 'UK Practices' a term used to refer to a parliament who is taking the electorate for fools.
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I'd like to put in a claim for cleaning my front room carpet after viewing the the performance of Douglas Carswell in the lobby of the house after Speaker Martin's announcement, it made me physically sick. As one of the comments above shows he has never been slow in claiming his allowances, god help us all if this is the calibre of MP we get, nothing more than gesture politics.
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I think it is time for the public to be able to exercise a vote of "no confidence" now and not next spring. If Mr Martin has gone so should every single MP who made a "mistake".
Ordinary people have criminal records for doing far less than they have.
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Hi, yes let dissolve parliament, let a general election be held, lets put in the corrupt shower that started all of this many years ago before a Labour government. Some can't remember how bad those times were, perhaps then they need a reminder, I for one don't...
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Quitting on June 21st. Does that mean that if Michael Martin also quits as an MP, which seems certain, Gollum can delay the by-election until after the party conference season if he so chooses.
Long campaign for the SNP.
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The suggestion that he was the victim of class snobbery is rubbish. This arrogant little man lost all claim to being "working class" when he got himself into the union movement, thence into public life and finally took his place at the Westminster trough.It's doubtful if he has had his hands dirty from work in the last 40 years unless it's printers ink from the taxpayers' money that he was so fond of. Brown must now call an election and let us rid the country of a few hundred other freeloaders.
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Surely it is time for a major change to the position of speaker. As things stand, the Speaker's constituents are effectively disenfranchised, as they are not adequately represented in parliament. An alternative would be for a respected former MP to be selected, or for the seat to become vacant upon election of the Speaker, so that the Speaker is no longer expected to represent a constituency.
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What do you mean by "old-style Spanish practices"?! Why do you need to label the UK's own corruption with the name of another country? This seems like a somewhat mis-placed use words reflective of attitudes still prevalent in parts of the British psyche that we are superior to other nations (whether of breed or moral grounding). Given the magnitude of the corruption (moral that is as there is no other label for what MPs were doing regardless of whether the rules allowed it)uncovered by the Telegraph, a better label would have been "old-style British practices" as clearly this expense-fiddling has been going on for a rather long time.
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re #156 - I wouldn't suggest half as many MPs just that those that have been found out be asked/forced to resign or be sacked and not permitted to stand again. There will be others to take their place (pebble in the pool of water scenario !!).
The Speaker is being forced to resign as much for the failings of his predecessors as his own - it merely came to light (thankfully) on his watch.
Moreover recently there have been many things rejected due to costs (e.g. the issue over Ghurkas rights etc) .... hmmm offset that against the amount of public money which has been 'mistakenly claimed' by immoral means !
If the speaker is culpable so too are the individual party heads; but more than them, the entire accounts department has been appalingly managed; which civil servants are accountable there - or are they, like politicians, able to slip the cloak of public accountability !
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Nick,
I think you have really let yourself and your readers/listeners down here. This has nothing to do with class, far from it. It's down to incompetence at best and downright criminality at worst.
It's time for a general election, the people need to vote!
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Quote of the day must go to Sir Stuart Bell when interviewed on Sky after Michael Martin's resignation statement.
Sympathetically listing events leading to the resignation:
"..unfortunately he came across the FOI (Act).."!!!
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#140
"Gorbals Mick created and upheld a system that allowed benefit cheats to milk taxpayers of ill-gotten money ..//.. I sincerely hope he faces police charges now.
I seem to remember that there were benefit cheats (in the wider sense) during the 1950s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and in the years so far in this current century, should all those (surviving) Government Ministers also face criminal investigations too. Or is it one law for who you like and another for who you don't, isn't that more like either mob or totalitarian-rule rather than a democracy - 'we don't like your face/politics so we are going to trump up some criminal charges and put you away until you can do no more damage to us' - bit like what 's happening in Burma?...
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62 Fubar Saunders
#you only have to give up second jobs, directorships etc, when you are part of the GOVERNING party, which Cam's lot havent been for 12 years.
Your quite right of course but if Cameron was ever to gain power there would be a lot of eyes closed to who was doing what.
#And, what has Cameron being a millionaire already got to do with anything? Er, hello mate... Shaun Woodward, Geoffrey Robinson... neither of them are skint.
Perhaps you don't see the difference in a multi millionair claiming expenses and a person who is far from being a millionair claiming expenses,says something about you I think.
#Sorry mate. I know you enjoy this agent provocateur stuff, but its that old green eyed monster that keeps on shining through doesnt it? Just cant shake off the fact that life aint fair and equal... and sometimes, just sometimes, those who were born into money or status just need to be brought down a peg or six, dont they?
I take it that you are aware of the meaning of Agent Provocateur, I can assure that the suggestion certainly doesn't apply to me. As for green eyed monster you have me wrong again I envy no one I have had a good life and although not a wealthy man I have a good wife a great little dog and the three of us are very happy, I have no desire to bring down the rich, good luck to them but when I compare my life to many of them give me mine every time, But I don't want them to make my life hard because they have money, as for your remark life aint fair and equal, well as I have said I have no major complaints about my life I have lived a lot longer than many of the wealthy so I suppose that could be considered unfair by some of them.
I'll tell you a little story, some years ago when I was still sailing I was moored in the habour in Antibes with my wife we had a 37 foot yacht that I had built a few years before,each day I would go the market to by supplies there was a rather large yacht moored close by and there was always a elderly lady who still had traces of beauty in her face she would sit in her deck chair always acknowledging my passing but always looking unhappy although having two stewards hanging on her every word, one day I stopped to talk to her and perhaps rather cheekily asked her why she always looked so unhappy, she replied that she was very wealthy she said I have everything I could possibly want but I am sad because the things I really want is to be young and beautiful so that I can take advantage of all that I have, I cannot stop time passing and growing old even though I can afford everything else,thats what makes me sad. I symathised with her and left and yet I felt really sorry for that lady, but at my age now without all that wealth I am happy and envy no one.
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Good riddance to the worst speaker that has ever been. He has disgraced this august position. He has been in the pocket of Brown and Blair since his appointment to a position which has always been considered free from party politics - the man is a joke.
I sincerely hope he and the rest of the scottish contingency head for border to enjoy their free prescriptions, frozen council tax and free University tution paid for by England!
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"writingsonthewall wrote:
The reality is that a band of independents would have similar views to the common man - mainly because most independents are 'common men / women' and it's unlikely we would get a rise of facist ideals like in Germany in the 1930's - which remember were heavily boosted by the nationalist feelings following WWI."
Or just as likely you will end up with a band of people who having no common ground are unable to agree on anything (apart from probably large pay rises!). How many Independent MPs will have fully costed plans for the NHS? Or for Education?
You would have 650 odd people all fighting amongst themselves for the roles of PM, CoE, etc.
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Eight long years - we have been telling you about this Government and at last, to-day you can go to www.myspace.com/songsfromthesilentkingdom and play the song we have been telling you to play all this time. "Come in Spinner" it's on the reverbnation player on this page. Every blogg/comment the Silent Kingdom as put up has come true. It's easy when you know how!!
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I'll weep no tears of Joy, or Sorrow,
just glad we've got a new 'tomorrow'.
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Nicholas. Can I model myself on Speaker Martin and keep this very short. He failed to lead? Ok.
And the media did nothing but follow - for more than two years in one case. Documenting yet not reporting a scapegoating. Only obeying orders?
Subject: he failed to lead (boris chanson loin)
Anagram: Cad hero libel fashionista non dole
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About time. If Brown had an ounce of decency or any morals he would resign immediatly and call an immediate General Election. Brown talks of MP's being deselected for fiddles on expenses ? HE changed the rules to make those expenses TAX FREE ! He wasnt only involved, he was the arcitect.
Unfortnatly, listening to Camerooon this morning it will be a fudge here and a fudge there, no REAL change, no ridding the country of thousands of expensive quango's and consultants, no ridding the country of the disasterous tax credit system which stops people trying to earn more and better themselves, fudge around the edges of the disasterous Human Rights Bill and Eurpean unelecetd dictators making rules for Britain.
Is there a point in a new Government which will be just the same as this lame duck. Who will stand up for the normal working man and women of our once "Great Britain"
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Michael Martin's appointment as Speaker was a typical New Labour ploy to demonstrate to it's voters how anyone from the "working class" can do well and rise to such dizzy heights under their tutelage. (I speak as someone from a similar 'background' albeit from the English Midlands.) In so doing, they have simply demonstrated their own ineptitude when it comes to selection of the the right person for the right job and not only in Comrade Martin's case. (Think of all those failed ex-ministers over the years!)
And yet, maybe he has been a blessing in disguise. His incompetence and intransigence have helped not only to bring this scandal to the fore but the general rottenness of Parliament to boot! Let's hope the Martin debacle has more far-reaching effects than simply tidying up an ill-thought out expenses system so easily open to abuse.
Mind you, if he does get "kicked upstairs" there would, I suspect, be many in the upper house sweating blood to think that they might all soon be tarred with the same brush! Oh yes, and I wonder what their expense accounts look like?
Ssssh... Do I hear the sound of the tumbrils?
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Nick,
Eventually you have come to realise that Martin was never up to the job of Speaker. It is a pity that those who defended him failed to spot his weaknesses, and indeed were happy to cover up for his mistakes merely to serve their own particular political ends.
We also have to recognise that there are posters on here who want to see action taken against certain members of the Conservatives and Lib Dems while at the same time blaming the Telegraph for having exposed the whole thing to scrutiny. A bit of inconsistency methinks.
It is clear that until wholesale reform takes place, and to-day was a good start, nothing much will change. So let us have a general election and get rid of the so called troughers.
Cheers
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He needed to go, but it should be said that he believed he was doing what MPs wanted. In other words, there are those for whom he acted in fighting calls for openness, now keeping their heads well down, who should go too. Michael Martin has not been unique in seeking to keep secret the workings of our so-called 'open government', and I'd like to see some more of these apologists for secrecy and closed doors paying the price.
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158. At 2:40pm on 19 May 2009, Laughatthetories wrote:
114
"Wouldn't it be funny if, after Mr. Brown's statement about Labour MPs who fiddled expenses not being allowed into office, someone managed to prove he had??"
And similarly Cameron? Or wouldn't you find that quite so amusing?
But Cameron didn't make that statment. Capiche?
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Wouldn't it be better if there was a clause that if xx% of the population who actually voted demanded it then a GE would need to be called? I.e. if 2000 people voted and you need 50% then 1000 people would need to sign-up to demand a GE.
Agreed, even better would be a system where ID cards allowed people to vote on every issue and where M.P's just set the agenda for what was proposed. You could have I.D card readers in Supermarkets with finger print recognition and everyone could vote on every proposed bill.
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Nick,
I am no fan of Micheal Martin as speaker as he has performed particularly poorly over the expenses scandal. He has clearly applied very poor judgement in the handling of the affair after it was made public and appears out of his depth. His decision to call in the Police to investigate the leaking of documents to the DT beggars belief.
However, I cannot reconcile how so many MP's continue believe that the system is entirely to blame and they were only following the rules.
There are some MP's who appear to have continually exploited the system and the removal of the Speaker should go no way to ease their guilt.
Some of our world renowned elder statesmen would be turning in their graves at recent events.
Still Gordon Brown will have plenty of time after the next election to contemplate what went wrong.
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So who's next? I have seen Anne Widdecombe suggested here. Wouldn't she be an excellent speaker?
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Nick
Speaker Martin outwitted them all the politicians the media were spitting blood, I was disapointed but I thought good on you lad you've spoilt there chance to insult you further.
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122#
Yep. I can accept all that. A well argued point.
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Having just heard the announcement that the Speaker is to relinquish his office on 21st June I wonder, being a cynic, what significance that date has.
However, that aside, without fundamental changes to the archaic systems of government there will be little progress and the MPs will come up with a new wheeze to retain their life style and line their pockets.
The operation of the Houses of Parliament should be in line with best business practice with proper seperation of functions, i.e. the MPs operate the legislation function whilst the day to day operations are undertaken by others.
As a start the Speaker and its associated office should be replaced by a board and Chief Executive. The Chief Ezecutive and Board could be elected by and be answerable to the people, then we would have democracy.
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Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg had openly called for him to go - calling him a "dogged defender of the Status Quo".
So now, the MP's expenses claiming anthem is "Whatever you want!"
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one of the reasons why 'elder states-people' are made Speaker is because of the depth of knowledge.
====
Your Joking right Mr Martin has relied on his aides more than any Speaker in history
Of course, if you only mean that candidates should not at the time of their candacy be members of a political party
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No I mean what I said. Membership of a political party should disqualify you from being speaker. The vast majority of people have never and will never be members of a political party.
Totally unworkable,
=====
Thats what they said about universal sufferage.
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As a Scotsman, and its gives me no pleasure to say it, but Michael Martin was over-promoted to a position way out of his depth. He is an embarrassment to Scotland and should never have been made Speaker of the House. He'll get a nice pay-off though with his resignation, maybe that's what he's beeen holding out for rather than do the honourable thing and retire long ago. He will not be missed, that's for sure !
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153#
Likewise mate, just got back from holiday in the Italian Lakes. Hope all is well.
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Nick, the only person with any class consciousness here is you for suggesting such a thing; using class, race or ethnicity as an excuse for partisanship and incompetence is shameful.
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141. Susan-Croft:
Today Nick I found your report a little confused. On the one hand you say there is some truth in the prejudice and snobbery towards Martin because of his roots as a union leader and on the other you then infer that he was not up to the job of Speaker because of his use of shop steward methods.
Susan, I would have thought you'd have 'got it' by now.
Nick has to be seen as a neutral commentator. So he'll quote the government line in one sentence and then follow it with an opposition or populist line. Which is why he is hard to follow at the best of times. I think we fail to appreciate what a difficult job it is.
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"Laughatthetories wrote:
and what's wrong with that? Surely they shouldn't have it all their own way. Do 'em good to suffer a bit."
Well I guess it depends on why they are being targetted? Is it because the attacker is jealous of their background? Or is it because they actually deserve it? (Of course for some socialists just being born to money means they deserve it)
Most second generation troughers are actually more deserving of socialist scorn then those who are born into the Upper Class.
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Adopt a system, grab the money, blame the system, find a scapegoat, install another system.
644 egos remain fully intact. Lets remember that all systems are in fact embedded sub-systems. I do hope that the parent systems aren't rotten too.
Oh dear, this is what happens when you loose the faith.
Criminal Justice Please!
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Well the speaker as done the right thing and resigned
We Should not expect a general election till a satisfactory system on expenses is sorted out as a new lot of MP's will only try the keep the expenses system as it is
This is how I would sort it out
The government should buy a block of 500 student type flats for MP's to use in London while they are MP's
Food and utility allowance
Food and utility allowance will be £18.57 per day the same as a single pensioner gets per day this is to live on
If a MP is living with another MP then they will get a total of £28.20 per day the same as a Couple of pensioners gets per day this is to live on and only 1 of the MP's can claim this and if they want any thing else they pay for it out of there pay.
This allowance is only payable as long as parliament is sitting.
It is time that all pay and expenses of MP's are sent to there electorate to have them validated
This would work in this way
The registered Constituency electorate would receive a copy of the MP's pay and expenses statement .
If an MP's partner is also an MP then both MP's must submit copy's of there pay and expenses statements to the registered Constituency local electorate the would also receive ballot paper with 7 options
Options 4 to 7 are to fix the MP's pay for the next year
Each Option would require a Yes or No answer
Option (1)
Pay is too much and to be reduced by 5%
Option (2)
Expenses are to be resubmitted after they are reduced
Option (3)
Expenses are reasonable
Option (4)
Pay is reasonable
Option (5)
Pay is too be held at present rate
Option (6)
Pay is too be increased by inflation
Option (7)
Pay is too be increased by inflation + 1%
If a MP is required to resubmit there Expenses
The MP will have to go in front of a public meeting of there registered Constituency electorate to get there expenses approved they must win vote by 60% of those who are at the meeting to approve the expenses if the MP fails to get 60% at the meeting
The meeting will then decide what percentage will be approved if any of it
If the MP dose not want to except the decision of the ballot and meeting the MP will be deemed to of resigned his or her seat
This meeting will be chaired by a local councilor of one of the other party's and not a councilor of the same party as the MP
This would insure that a MP's can not just claim and pay themselves what they like within the rules Staff they can employ that the tax payer will pay for one office administrator and one researcher office assistant to work in Constituency office
one office assistant to work in London if there Constituency is more than 80 miles outside of London
Constituency office they will be required to clock in and out every day and there pay will be shown in the MP's expenses with hours worked and rate of pay there hours will be
Monday to Thursday 9 till 5:00
Wednesday to Friday 8:30 to 5:00 and 9 till 1 Saturday for MP's surgery
The MP as to hold at least 40 surgery's per year and when Parliament is not sitting the MP is required to attend there Constituency office every day one week out of every 3 weeks
The only exception to this is if the MP is on government business
This office will be in a local government office or government building with it's own public access
This system would take control of expenses out of MP's control and stop any party or government from using out consultants who would give over generous recommendations on pay and expenses
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Could we have an English or Welsh speaker next please ?
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"He presided over the system which encouraged MPs to fiddle their expenses or to claim them to the max."
poor wee souls...being led astray by big, bad Michael....
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He has done the right thing. Yesterday his performance was as bad as ever...in recent days it has seemed that someone had prepared his statements for him and he could barely read them out competently. And no this isn't a class issue...the last 2 speakers were from poor working class backgrounds and were superb so drop that nonesense now!
He has had his snout in the trough and fought tooth and nail to avoid the FOI act revealing this sad state of affairs. There is no need to enoble him for what is largely regarded as undistinguished service and the thought of him with his snout in yet another trough will only disenfranchise the electorate even more...if that is possible.
We now need a radical modern speaker. The daft and no doubt hugely expensive outfit should be ditched. MP's need a proper salary to stop this grubby behaviour. Why not pitch it around 175k so that they will have a disincentive to fiddle with the top rate and would hopefully return it back to 40%! They should be banned from employing relatives as secretaries or 'researchers'. All tax perks available to MP's must be cancelled forthwith...they must be subject to tehe exact same tax laws as the rest of us. The hugely subsidised restauarants in the House should charge commercial rates saving us another £5m per annum. Having clapped eyes on some of Mr Martin's supporters this week they don't need huge lunches!
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"Laughatthetories wrote:
114
"Wouldn't it be funny if, after Mr. Brown's statement about Labour MPs who fiddled expenses not being allowed into office, someone managed to prove he had??"
And similarly Cameron? Or wouldn't you find that quite so amusing?"
Isn't Cameron actually a Tory MP - I know it can be hard to draw lines between parties at the moment but I am sure he was.
Anything Brown brings in for Labour MPs would only apply to Labour MPs and not Cameron, Osbourne, Clegg etc.
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The sad thing about the Speaker's 'forced' resignation is that it smoothes over the whole House's position re Expenses. There is something Freudian in all of this, and many MPs will think they are exonerated by displacing the responsibility onto him. Yes, he is implicated, but this move makes him a real scapegoat, and unfortunately it distracts from the real truth that all MPs are in this together and the real answer is vote them all out, and vote in a new reginme who will commit to full transparency under a new regime for expenses. They are all tarred by the same brush: if they can exploit the expenses code they will. It is, sadly, human nature to take advantage when advantage can be taken. We need a new breed.
I did not like the Thatcherite era but at least Maggie stood up for her beliefs, so maybe we need a new Maggie, a new Hitler (there, I have said it)to lift this dire and dismal country out of the gloom and despondency our leaders have brought us to, and I will never forgive Blair or Brown for their self-aggrandising motives that have brought this glorious country to its knees, into a self-respect in the world we have just about forgotten.
I would really like to start a new political party, not like BNP or UKIP but in view of the partisan Welsh and Scottish Parties, a new English National Party that would allow us, the English, to seek our true roots and stand up for them. I believe the over forties know what I mean because thay can recall the after-effects of WW2, and see just how much current politics has robbed us of a say in running our local communities. We have been robbed by those who beleive they represent us, but have no concept of local or regional requirements.
It is a club for the Elite, and it needs to be dismantled. Just look at the Malik videos to see how removed these people are from the real issues.
We need 'real' people in politics, not the 'career' people; people who have a real belief in what is good and necessary for this country, not just themselves and an opportunity for personal gain.
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'Spanish' practices? ¡Yikes!
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Sad that the Speaker is used as a pound of flesh when the rest of the MP's are still filling their pockets and pensions. Why has not one MP been suspended or arrested for theft, fraud, etc?
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Where's the evidence that he was the victim of class-based prejudice and snobbery Nick?
He was incompetant in the one requirement of the job - leadership, and perhaps one should also add vision. His performance yesterday was lamentable, and grossly unworthy of someone occupying arguably the highest office in Parliament.
"There is some truth in both those charges." Please add the evidence to your blog if its any more than supposition.
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"He failed to lead"
I disagree.
This individual seems to have lead a nice little racket that would have run on and on if not busted from outside, exposing the corrupted innards of our governing body politic.
And then, after being lead out of the chamber he so disgraced, it is time to pause, reflect... and certainly not 'move on' as many doubtless hope, but excavate every other rotten one who thinks this little aside will buy them a pass. Having heard Mr. Miliband's gushing tribute, I have a mind where best to start.
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"Others will insist that this Glaswegian sheet metal worker was the victim of class-based prejudice and snobbery."
Yes, these comments have been made for years, in fact they were a standard response by the Lab spin merchants any time someone criticised the speaker it made no difference whether the criticism was by some Tory toff or a little old lady trying to survive on her pension in Margate.
Simple fact was that they were never true.
martin came to politics through the Glasgow system. I am reliable informed by my relatives who live there that for at least the last 30 years local politics has been totally corrupt in Glasgow and makes the MP expenses row look very minor. He grew up in corruption and when he got to Parliament felt at home.
The role of the Speaker is to ensure impartiality, to enforce Parliamentry rules on debates and above all protect the reputation of Parliament (not individual MPs or even govts). He consistently failed to perform all 3 roles.
The problem now is how does Parliament find an MP untainted by scandal to carry out the speakers role. Can I start the Bring Back Betty campaign?
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Post 176. I hadn't thought re the choice of dates and the potential bye election waiting till the autumn.
I understand Scottish Schools break up for the summer two weeks earlier than in England which will also put another spanner in the works re dates.
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No.92 Furtlefinch
Let the Audit Commission audit parliament??? Are you sure about this given that they lost significant funds with an Icelandic Bank and then had the audacity to say that local authoritities were negligent, and then backed down on this when the local authorities threated to sue them. Also 30% of their audits are done by the same firms which signed off the banks that went bust. Also their independence is questionable given that the DCLG are their sponsor. I think that you'll find that the NAO already audit parliament already.
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"cuke2u wrote:
Hi, yes let dissolve parliament, let a general election be held, lets put in the corrupt shower that started all of this many years ago before a Labour government. Some can't remember how bad those times were, perhaps then they need a reminder, I for one don't..."
I would actually be quite happy to move back to a time when the corruption seemed to be limited to back bench MPs taking cash to ask questions, and a few Ministers playing away.
Under this government we have had scandals about parties taking cash for peerages, peers of the realm suspended for trying to change laws for money. Senior members of the government (and opposition) flipping their second homes to get maximum cash from expenses. And a Speaker who wasted public money trying to hide MP's possible expense fraud from the public.
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Ah the dulcet tones of the media whipping up a storm outside parliament today, a storm of their engineering they wanted a scalp and they got one. Listen to their pathetic attempts to cover the story with nothing to tell. The need to fill air time is what drives the body politic today, I wonder how much it cost to get all the MP's in Parlaiament for nothing. I wonder how much of our liscence fee has been spent covering a 22 second announcement.
Mr Martin may go next month......lots of others will go within a year
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Can we also break the two party mould please, if we are going to make reforms lets make everyones vote count
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According to the BBC:
"Meanwhile, the Metropolitan Police have said they will not investigate how details of claims came to be leaked to the Daily Telegraph. The "public interest defence would be likely to prove a significant hurdle" to a criminal prosecution....But officers from the Economic and Specialist Crime Command had met senior Crown Prosecution Service solicitors to discuss allegations some MPs had misused public money."
So, Martin did well then; asking the police to investigate the leak so that he could divert attention from the real crime, with the upshot that the police told him point-blank that they won't investigate the leak but that they would investigate the MPs for fraud.
Marvellous.
At least the police are doing something right for a change.
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Is the slight delay in his departure date so that he can write his memoirs and serialise in the daily mirror or suchlike? He's not a happy man, so maybe he will dish the dirt on his honourable "friends". Or was "no memoirs" a Brown condition of his elevation to our Lordships house I wonder?
Oxford Dictionary revised definition :-
Brownian Motion - Running around like a headless chicken but somehow still able to cluck meaningless and incomprehensible platitudes well after the event.
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At last, the "Right Honourable" Mr Speaker has taken the honourable course. Better late than never.
Other "Honourable" members should also examine their consciences and consider if they might take a similarly honourable course and apply for the Chiltern Hundreds.
Best of all, the Prime Minister should seek an early Dissolution of this totally discredited Parliament, and allow all "Honourable" Members to seek a vote of confidence from their own electorates.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Nick's comment: "Some will complain that he has been made a scapegoat for the failings of individual MPs."
- He should not be a scapegoat, but he was certainly part of the problem and had to go.
Nick's comment: "Others will insist that this Glaswegian sheet metal worker was the victim of class-based prejudice and snobbery."
- This claim is completely specious. Speaker Thomas was admired on all sides and he was the son of a Welsh miner. Betty Boothroyd was also much admired and respected - she was a former Tiller girl and typist.
Snobbery was certainly not the problem and nor was class prejudice - the problem was Speaker Martin's inability to do the job. It puzzles me why the Blair Government moved Heaven and High Water to get Martin elected as Speaker, even stooping to prevent Mo Mowlam from nominating Gwynneth Dunwoody. Perhaps Nick could ask this question - why did Labour break precedent (in getting a Labour MP to succeed a Labour MP as Speaker) and why was the then Labour Government so determined it should be Brown's fellow Scot, Michael Martin?
There is some truth in both those charges.
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Can I just stand up for shop stewards, or workplace representatives. It's a good thing to represent your fellow workers to your employer - thousands of people do this selfless (and unpaid) job day in day out and do not deserve to be casually impugned in the way Nick Robinson does here.
Some shop stewards will be better than others, but by and large they are good people trying to help when fellow workers are unfairly treated by their bosses.
As to the humbug of the MPs clamouring for Michael Martin's resignation - I have no idea what kind of a shop steward he was in his earlier life, and may not have been a great speaker of the house of commons - but it was the MPs themselves collectively who constantly voted against change and openness.
As a socialist I never thought I'd praise The Daily Telegraph for its radical campaigning journalism - but it did us all a favour by exposing the expenses scandal - a kind of shop steward for the people, if you like. I hope we can identify all of the corrupt MPs and deal with them properly.
Maybe Nick himself could do find time to do a little of that kind of public service on his not inconsiderable BBC presenter salary, and doubtless reasonable expenses, rather than so casually impugning the valuable work of real life shop stewards!
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Back to the expenses row and away from this parliamentary squid ink: Strikes me that the problem is not secular to the British system. Other representatives from other democracies have to travel to and reside in political centres to represent their constituencies. Can we hear how others deal with this shared and somewhat special problem. The expenses and remuneration difficulty also goes wider in that representatives come from different walks of live not just geopolitical locales; they want different inputs; have different skills to give and arguably might even expect different levels of remuneration. Whilst we cannot expect to return to an aristocracy-led ill paid parliament neither should beckon a system whereby overly well-remunerated ne'er-do-wells run the country.
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Crumbs moderator, you've a fine number of posts to catch up with :o/
Nick, you tell us that you think it's grievance against Martin because of his working background.... what utter tosh!
Just hail back a few years to the wonderful Betty Boothroyd, impartial, great as Speaker and never let any of us forget where she came from.
Martin has never been impartial, Martin has lined his own pockets with his taxi expenses... and those are the expenses we know about at the moment.
Betty would never, ever have spoken to Hoey as Martin did the other day in Parliament. Betty would've listened to the MP's moved along the need to sort all the mess out before the whole caboosh had got itself hip deep in mire.
If I remember correctly... wasn't the 'new' speaker supposed to hail from the ranks of the Tories? Blair changed all that, didn't he?
I'm now awaiting his expenses... there must be some that haven't been 'accidentally' shredded.
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He wasn't a scapegot. I've observed as he has used everything he can muster to resist the necessary changes and transparency regarding MP expenses.
Frank Dobson lamentably defended him today stating that he was just "representing the MP's and their wishes." This is exactly why he had to go. He had a very powerful role and should have spurned such demnads and led the change, not bowed to the demands of the house. He chose not to. Good riddance!
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People said it was impossible and unconstitutional to get rid of the speaker. However, he is now going. Why is it so difficult therefore to get Gordon Brown to quit? He should have quit a long time ago. In all my life I have never known such a dismal leader. It despresses me every time I see him on my tv screen. Fortunately, as he is so reluctant to speak to us, the nation, unless he has too, we don't see him on tv very often. Sometimes, you wonder if he is still there. I see more of Cameron and Clegg on tv that I do Brown. Today he says he is going to pontificate some more over the expenses problem. He does not seem to grasp the fact that he is the LEADER. Please, get this govenment, the entire sorry lot of them to QUIT!
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Oh and I hear that despite this he will be made a Lord! Tell me this cannot be so.
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The first of many to leave - hopefully.
David Cameron should stop asking for a general election and start demanding one. He should write to the Queen to inform her that Gordon Brown no longer has the respect or confidence of the Bristish people and he should request that she disolves parliament immediately.
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Perhaps he was just unlucky that there were two crisis on his watch in fairly short succession (D Greence being the other). He seemed not to know how to handle either or be prepared to take any responsibility for either, perhaps that is what go him in the end. Anne Widdecombe has put her name forward and I think she would be very good because she is not implicated in the expenses row and is a deeply sincere person who talks a lot of sense.
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"grandantidote wrote:
#And, what has Cameron being a millionaire already got to do with anything? Er, hello mate... Shaun Woodward, Geoffrey Robinson... neither of them are skint.
Perhaps you don't see the difference in a multi millionair claiming expenses and a person who is far from being a millionair claiming expenses,says something about you I think."
I don't see the difference between a multi-millionaire and someone who isn't claiming expenses. In the true meaning of the word expenses are a cost that is suffered from doing your job.
Is it fair that we expect people who are richer to basically pay to do their jobs? A private company would not expect richer staff to pay for hotels and travel expenses so why should we expect the government to have that rule?
The big problem is that so many things which shouldn't be put on expenses are when MPs are putting in their claims.
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#159.
"I think this part is extremely misleading. Now if you had put union organiser or shop steward you would have been closer to the mark. I wouldn't refer to Manny Shinwell as a clothing machinist, so why, unless to portray Martin in a better light do you propagate this myth?"
Oh come on, that is just a blatant, and rather ignorant, shot across the bow of unions and shop stewards, sorry but how could Michael Martin be the shop steward of sheet metal worker if he wasn't a sheet metal worker originally, it's like suggesting that Arthur Scargil was a railway worker who went on to be be a NUM union official! Shop stewards are elected from the workplace workforce by the workforce.
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#68 Dreaming Ben said:
"Personally, I'm fed up with all the bile and vitriol that is being aimed at Michael Martin. And as for all the people commenting on blogs like this one ... well, it's amazing how many "hard working taxpayers" find plenty of time to spout their drivel on the internet in the middle of the working day.
Everybody knew exactly what the system was like; there is no new information of substance in the latest furore. Yes, the system needs changing - it always has - but there is no need for everyone to get so NASTY about it!"
Obviously he wasn't dreaming around noon; but he was dreaming when he wrote the above as he is not bothered. People who use their votes are bothered, and rightly so.
This is yet another Blair fantasy (problem). If Blair had not broken with the formerly agreed principle regarding who should be Speaker this would never have happened. We could have known all about the expenses even before the last election, which could have produced a different spread of MPs.
Now we have the unedifying picture of our Parliament being held up to ridicule by all those in other countries who look for any reason to say - don't ever tell us what to do. It is so, so stupid. All those who saw the expenses system as a good way to cheat us and the IR and the other MPs who have not indulged in cheapening themselves and us, have brought about a serious disgrace of Parliament. And it is OUR parliament, where our MPs are supposed to be representing us, not themselves.
Honesty went out of the window when they decided to pay MPs, let alone bring in expenses in the 70s. Money has attracted some of the worst characters; so what about the selection process? As both leading parties take control over selection can we expect them to exercise better judgement in the future? Anyone got a crystal ball?
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#57 JohnConstable
Yes, I agree, it's not about the party in power it's about parliament itself.
I think the only reason that David Cameron is turning this into an election crusade is because there is gathering momentum within the Cabinet to finally reform our undemocratic political system.
Plus, of course, there's the fact that the Telegraph focus naturally appears to have been Labour and there may be more sleaze/greed to come from the Conservatives - they certainly win the treating being an MP as a part-time job competition.
Anyway, if the government were to use their final days to reform British politics it's unlikely to favour the Conservatives as there are a number of ideas that would take their huge poll advantage away from them.
If for no other reason, I hope there isn't an election. The Mother of All Parliaments expired some time ago and we need a system that provides an alternative to the two party dictatorship we currently have.
Your idea of devolution sounds interesting and the most sensible - the UK being broken down into constituent countries. If in turn, voting works on a proportional representation basis even better. Parties could even be centrally funded to avoid 'conflicts of interest' (business, Lord Ashcroft etc).
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If you mean he failed to lead the MPs away from the trough then you are correct.
If an MP needs a leader in order to work out the difference between right and wrong are they fit to be an MP?
If another lucrative but dubious opportunity arises in the future will MPs need a leader to prevent them from exploiting it?
Perhaps a better description of events could be: a convenient sacrificial lamb to feed the bad news Gods in the media.
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"It's the same way people mis-conceive 'anarchy' as being 'chaos' - but it actually means 'without a ruler'"
Actually Anarchy does refer to a state of chaos- Anarchism is a political ideology based on the absence of authority. Entirely unrepated to this, but an important semantic point. For me anyway.
On the subject we're actually talking about, I think this is really quite a cynical ploy to scapegoat somebody and divert attention away from huge misjudgements made by many MPs. They could not have picked on a weaker target.
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COST OF THE SPEAKERS RESIGNATION SPEECH
So 600 MP's went to the House of Commons for a 5 minute resignation speech. The question that comes to mind is how much will the 600 MPs have claimed, as exepenses, to attend this. Perhaps if they watched at home on the TV's they have already claimed on expenses.
More money wasted, Parliament needs to get with today's technological age and use electronic means to attend a resignation.
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Essential summertime reading is Squandered by David Craig. It's basically how much money is being pourd away by Parliament. Written 2-3 years ago and largely ignored it's now starting to sell like hot cakes.
A real eye-opener.
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Presumably there will be no reward for Mr Martin for failure?
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
A sign of the times that my comment makes me laugh and makes me dispair at the same time.
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@2. At 11:55am on 19 May 2009, writingsonthewall,
Give me a genuine anarchy anyday. All we need is common law and these rules that you can do whatever the hell you want, so long as you do not cause harm, injury or loss and do not commit mischief (FRAUD)in your contracts.
We do not need any more laws than that!
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it has been confirmed he is leaving his seat at the same time...... by giving up before the general election he forfeits around 100,000 pounds.. but dont weep for him as a retiring speaker he will get an indexed linked pension of HALF his 141,000 salary, plus of course over 400 pounds a day when he is sent to the house of Lords....... so will there be a by election or will it be taken over by events when GB is forced to call a general election?
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In reply to comments @ #176 relating to the resignation of Speaker Martin
"Long campaign for the SNP."
They'll need it, judging by the local election results and opinion polls, the SNP "Dream" went up in smoke when the banks went up in smoke and the Scots know it - the SNP's dream was an economy built on finance, like Iceland...
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Even the Met have told him that he's been working against the public interest and they refuse to investigate the leak.
So, he definitely should have gone.
It's not really a red-herring/scapegoat situation though, it's just the first phase of what they need to do.
The second phase is to prosecute the MPs for tax fraud.
The third phase is to hold a general election.
All of those things need to be done asap, preferably with a general election being held along with the local/euro elections this june 4th.
There's no point "changing the rules" with the current set of MPs in place; what they need is a massive clean-out via a general election, and then have the new set of MPs change the rules.
(by the way; Brown's "I'll punish anyone who broke the rules" statement is totally bogus; the whole point is that virtually nobody broke the rules because the rules were so vague/wide-open; Brown's missed the whole point of why people are angry)
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It also means a good chance of a Labour speaker as well if he steps down now, doesn't it?
Leave it until the next general election and we could be looking at a Conservative speaker.
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67 MarkWE wrote (to Its_an_Outrage)
"He isn't just guilty of trying to cover-up the expenses he is also spent time at the trough himself (and he has let his wife and children have their turn as well).
We are not talking about a man who has refused to use his expenses (and there are MPs out there who haven't claimed for second houses.
==========
I've re-read my original post and am quite sure that I never suggested otherwise.
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114
"Wouldn't it be funny if, after Mr. Brown's statement about Labour MPs who fiddled expenses not being allowed into office, someone managed to prove he had??"
Hilarious. And similarly David Cameron? Or wouldn't that be so funny?
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Nick,
ONE QUESTION FOR THE NEXT MP YOU MEET.
HOW CAN MP'S POSSIBLY EMPATHISE WITH THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY WHEN THE VAST MAJORITY OF CITIZENS (AND AN EVEN BIGGER MAJORITY OF VOTERS) HAVE A MORTGAGE AND THE VAST MAJORITY OF MP'S DO NOT?
This is how MP's have grwon so out of touch with the world, they don't look like us, they don't behave like us and they don't live like us.
.....some would say they don't smell like us either - but I have never had the displeasure of getting that close.....
maybe you could comment Nick?
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The House of Commons is nothing like what it was set up for, ie the common man/woman. However, regarding Michael Martin, he never did have that air of authority that is essential, he's no Betty Boothroyd, she was speaker for 8 years and did a stellar job, she presided over MP's with a firm hand
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To say someone has 'failed to lead' requires a definition of what 21st Century 'leadership' and 'management' actually are ...
One aspect apparent when examining the "DNA of Failure" of leadership/management is the lack of definition and consensus about what they actually are! The second is how out-of-date most 'leadership' and 'management practices' actually are ... and the third is the lack of desire of people in 'power' to change them (but to drive/change other people instead) ...
So let's start with the 21st Century definition I use with next generation leaders:
21st Century Leadership is an 'Art' and about 'leading' People
21st Century Management is a 'Science' and about 'managing' Entities/Things (e.g. Businesses, Economies ...)
Moving on further ...
21st Century Leadership = Inspiring People + Challenging People + Supporting People + Developing People
21st Century Management = Managing Capability + Improving Capability + Developing Capability + Managing Change
Given these definitions, are any politicians actually 'leading'? are any of politicians 'managing'? ... Perhaps we have to go back to way out-of-date 20th Century definitions of leadership and management ...
Traditional 'Management' = Tell People + Manage People + Drive Results ( = Transactional 'Leadership')
Are any of them doing this instead? ... if they are, don't expect any long term success coming from here ... just more Poweromics*, frustration, failure, and lots more ways to waste/steal tax payers money.
David Clift, a Future 500 Leader
* Poweromics = People using position and power for their own personal gain, based on poor moral values, self interest and greed.
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"69. At 1:11pm on 19 May 2009, Stephen_Hunts wrote:
Meanwhile Gordon Brown is quoted to have said "No Labour MP who broke expenses rules would stand at the next election"
Mr Myopic missing the point yet again. What we want to hear is "No MP who abused the expenses system for personal gain would stand at the next election"
Absolutely correct. After these reviews there will be tories (correctly) slung out on their ears for abusing the system in a way that was entirely within the rules, but labour MP's who will not. They did not break the rules. They DID scam the tax-payer, but it was not against the rules, so they will not be deselected.
I predict that the test for labour MP's will be "Was it in the rules at the time that the claim was made." How can I be sure of this? Well because if the test was "Did this MP use the rules to scam the taxpayers, then Gordon Brown would have to be deselected too!
Gordon Brown abused the system, but within the rotten rules that existed, so he will not go, obviously.
Either that or it will be yet ANOTHER case of "I am responsible for this which is why I sacked the person responsible (yet here I still am in the job!)"
Gordon Brown MUST call an election and attempt to defend HIS dishonest, fraudulent and incompetent (mal)administration before the electorate!
You cannot trust ANY political party, so Vote Independent!
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The speaker had to go because he had lost the confidence of the house of commons. The role and authority of the speaker is best illustrated by the famous quote of Speaker Lenthall to Charles I where he said 'May it please Your Majesty I have neither eyes to see, nor tongue to speak in this place, but as the House is pleased to direct me, whose servant I am'. This is the role of the speaker and one that Speaker Martin appears to have lost sight of.
I've read a lot of posts here that talk about Gordon Browns leadership lacking on this matter but the above quote illustrates that the role of speaker is to speak for the whole house and their selection and continued support relies on all MPs not the patronage of the prime minister of the day. It seems that there is is a lot of misunderstanding of our 'unwritten' constitution.
I hope that now with the election of a new speaker attention will turn to the local political party membership in each MPs consitituency who will decide if their MP has milked the system and if they have, get rid of them and select a new candidate for the general election. This has to happen before an election otherwise we will be electing all of the moat and swimming pool expense claimers again.
My MP Frank Field has published his expenses on the web and looking at them they are less than some expenses of colleagues I have authorised expenses for in the private sector. I notice he is one of the candidates to be the next speaker listed on the BBC news site-I think he would be great in the role he is a very good constituency MP.
214 -we've got a new Maggie to be the next PM -he's called David Cameron. Like her he is proposing a moderate Conservative programme just like she did in 1979 and I suspect like her the party will push him into a more radical frame of mind once elected.
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Regarding calls for a General Election. Why is David Cameron in such a rush?
Is this an attempt to hide further revalations?
Perhaps if we paused for a short time, the truth will out and we will have a full picture of who has done what, and when.
Not simply those who have been fraudulent, but those who have dishonorably milked the system should be held accountable by the electorate. Let each constituency exam their own MP.
Just because one is able (within the rules, or by bending them) to do something, does not mean that they should.
We need to return to 'honourable' members, who can demonstrate good judgement.
So let us not rush into an election, let us examine each MP, from whatever party, and decide whether they are worthy of the office.
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Nick, does it ever occur to you that you might sometimes be in danger of becoming part of the Westminster spin machine instead of just reporting on it? Your musings about Michael Martin being impaled on his sword, whilst well written, seems to have a touch of Alistair Campbell or NO 10 input about it....especially coming so soon (or what is it before?) the announcement of his decision to go was announced. Snobbery against a Glaswegian sheet metal worker...a scapegoat for dishonest MPs...not a leader? Come on...he was up there leading the fight against release of information.
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Just to set the record straight on "democracy" - we have a representative democracy, carefully tuned so that there is normally a clear majority. This avoids the chaos of more 'representative' systems (consider italy or israel) where a succession of minority governments are so powerless that the real power becomes wielded by civil servants. We do not want that!
As for Martin - he's been made a scapegoat, but its too late, the covers are off and the public now truly knows the depth to which some MPs have sunk. I hope Brown comes through on his promise to deselect MPs who made truly bogus claims. I hope Cameron comes through on his promise to expel the crooks. I hope all parties come through on proper reform on MPs pay.
But I doubt this will happen. MPs will be 'deselected' by the voters, not their bosses. The next govt will, with trumpets blaring, set up a Committee to review the whole thing - to report in 2020, or when hell freezes over...
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#186 mark_we
"You would have 650 odd people all fighting amongst themselves for the roles of PM, CoE, etc. "
...and that's different to the current system because........?
Have you never witnessed a leadership challenge? The 650 men and women spend most of thier time working out how and who to stab in the back next in order to move themselves up the ladder.
What's written in the constitution is very different to what actualy goes on in parliment.
At least with 650 independents you would have a fair fight - and the people with the most convincing arguments woudl win out. Unlike today where the parties use the whips to ensure a totalitarian decision making tree (i.e. what Gordon wants - Gordon gets) - and it would be no different wiht any other leader in the frame.
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#197
"So who's next? I have seen Anne Widdecombe suggested here. Wouldn't she be an excellent speaker?"
NO, she would be terrible, and in any case hasn't she already announced that she would not be standing for election again, in fact I think her constituency has even selected her replacement.
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re: 224
"The BBC is also publically funded can we have their expenses published please!!"
Uh, with that sort of contortion, Exxon is publicly funded, as is Harrods, Mr Jones, the Baker, ...
Don't have a TV.
No payment for the BBC from you.
Now try not to pay taxes...
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This has all gone beyond the joke! The longer these sitting MP's try to hang on to power, the more damage they are doing to the country, if they do not have the honour to stand down and call a general election, then the Queen and the Military should force them to go, they have lost any right they had to stay in power. Something must be done in any future Parliament, to stop the sitting government clinging to power for their wage packets, when there has been such an unprecedented loss of confidence in them.
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#202
"Your Joking right Mr Martin has relied on his aides more than any Speaker in history"
...and that is exactly why many considered him a useless speaker! Doh...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Before we make up our minds about the rights or wrongs of the stampede to force the Speaker's resignation, let us consider how an expenses system which was so open to abuse was set up and by whom.
No decision about the legitimacy of one or another MP's claims can be considered until all MP's expenses are published and there is an even chance of some kind of fairness in the judgement of who may have or have not abused the system.
The Telegraph has been selective in its publication of the details. And because of this, could be accused of having an agenda of its own in doing so. Unless all expenses by all MPs can be considered together, there is no way of seeing "who loses and who wins" in this whole debacle.
Until there is full publication of all the facts, how can we judge the rights and wrongs of it?
This is why I consider the rush to condemn the Speaker and force his resignation was cynical, premature and politically motivated.
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#183 Boilerplated
Here you go again....that old "we can't possibly go back and look at past crimes - it simply wouldn't be fair"
What is it? something you need to confess? Made a claim on a mortgage that didn't exist?
Why when they are currently locking up people for crimes they committed years ago (cold cases) would the MP's be an exception?
Surely what you are proposing is exactly what your are arguing against - one rule for them and another rule for us.
I also need to inform you that we already operate under a near totalitarian Government because we've only just had our first rebellion under a 'un-elected' prime minister - where is the challenge to his failed leadership?
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Why is the media making such a show of Michael Martin stepping down? He was a career politician who treated hit seat as a given.
Parliament will go on as before - the same antiquated way of doing things - parties getting into power based on a minority vote - alternating between Conservative and Labour.
So nothing has changed - nothing will change.
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It is nothing to do with class but education. He lacked the knowledge to do the job and bumbled along. We need an election but the Conservatives maybe in for a shock when it comes. I know of several people who will vote for anyone but the 3 main parties in the EU, local and national elections.
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#39 (and others). What sort of idiot would accuse Mr Robinson of peddling the Labour line without first bothering to find out that he is an ex national chairman of the young conservatives and President of the xford University Conservative Assn. The one thing NR can never be accused of is favoring the Labour Party! In fact the overwhelming feature of his reporting is his inability to realise that the ripe smell of manure is coming from both Gordon and Dave.
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Now is the time for the New Reformation. The self serving elite have abused their power, become corrupt and their arrogance will lead to their downfall. Time to sweep them away and install new democratic representative with no links to their predecessors.
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#209
"The government should buy a block of 500 student type flats for MP's to use in London while they are MP's"
An how much would the security cost, what a marvellous target for terrorist, it would make the Brighton Grand bombing look like a tea-party in comparison, not just the Government but the opposition too...
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I'm really dismayed at all of the talk regarding whether Speaker Martin is a 'Scapegoat'. This is more Westminster 'poppycock' (do you like that silly archaic parliamentary word - Yes, some anorak will send a note saying it is not a parliamentary word at all) and vividly demonstrates the various mechanisms of denial that are rife in the Sleaze Museum - from the PM right down and along every party bench to te lowliest back-bencher.
For someone of supposedly humble origins he had an eight year run and did very well overall. The mentality amongst MP's seems to be that the they have a right of denial of basic facts and truths which can only infuriate the electorate.
Many defend Speaker Martens because they have their snouts in the trough and are on borrowed time.
The moral of this story may be that when you **** Up big time - be big and good enough to admit it and resign - even if you are a sleaze museum MP.
The other issue - G Brown has been happy to defect the heat of him recently by leaving Speaker Martens in place - from that point of view he may have been used as a scapegoat - but don't blame the few decent MP's who wish to clean up the Museum.
We need to see who are the MP 'cleanees', the 'dirtees' and 'uncertaintees' and sack all but the 'cleanees' and do this fast.
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Presumably Martin be handing back a proportion of his pension as government have demanded of others.....
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The trend continues...
Bank of Scotland fails
Royal Bank of Scotland fails
Dumfermline Building Society fails
Scottish Prime Minister
Scottish Chancellor
Scottish Speaker of the House
...anyone for devolution?
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Why not use the Inland Revenue to set up a department to oversee MP`s expenses in future,and to help prosecute those who have made false claims.
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All you needed to write was "Michael Martin, RIP - he failed to fulfil the role of Speaker". There is nothing else to say.
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#237
"David Cameron should stop asking for a general election and start demanding one. He should write to the Queen to inform her that Gordon Brown no longer has the respect or confidence of the Bristish people and he should request that she disolves parliament immediately."
...and when asked by the Queen for some evidence, Mr Cameron will produce what, a Tory party opinion poll, a couple of rancid, spite-stained letters from the Telegraph, even perhaps the ramblings of some sad bloggers who spend far to much time shifting user-accounts (not that I'm suggesting that sort of thing happens on BBC blogs you understand) like some MPs have shifted their second homes?
Come on, just accept that the best Cameron can do is keep asking, lets keep the Queen out of party politics, change that precedence and you might just find that you don't like the consequences when some future mass-opinion goes against your own views...
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"wirralwesleyan wrote:
My MP Frank Field has published his expenses on the web and looking at them they are less than some expenses of colleagues I have authorised expenses for in the private sector. I notice he is one of the candidates to be the next speaker listed on the BBC news site-I think he would be great in the role he is a very good constituency MP."
I personally hope that Frank Field doesn't stand for the role of Speaker. He seems to be one of the few Labour MPs who is actually honourable and I think that the party would be better suited with him still in it.
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#207 Mark_we
"Of course for some socialists just being born to money means they deserve it"
I don't think so, the ONLY people who believe in being born into money being deserved are the PRODUCTIVELY USELESS - those who would not survive if they didn't inherit their wealth.
For too long have people associated wealth with intelligence - I thought the little recession and collapse of banking at the hands of the 'intelligent bankers' myth had put an end to that.
Just because someone has to pay for their education - doesn't make them intelligent.
Look at the MP's - nearly all been to university, nearly all got degrees and yet many of them seem to struggle with some simple mathematics and interest payments - oh and of course understanding SIMPLE RULES.
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Speaker Martin is to retire soon and honesty and integrity will be returned to the Commons?
WAKE UP AND THINK PEOPLE!
Im not buying it. Problem, reaction, solution. The old Hegelian dialectic. The EU coup by stealth is almost complete. All they need is to break up our Parliament and remove our constitutional arrangements, and offices that are under Oath to the Queen and then we are TOTALLY consumed by the beast of the EU. Common law would be dead. They already have an army of pretend police that make NO oath of office, NATO troops enabled and allowed to act on our soil (as they were ready and primed to do at G20). Now they are attacking Parliament!
SO what do we have now? A scandal whereby the Speakers power is now to be removed and handed over to a respected and independent third party (in the third sector) and the Speaker will become a symbolic and ceremonial position, powerless and usurped by traitors to the Crown. That means even LESS power devolved to us under Royal Oath. It will not be too long before any vestige of the UK as an independent country is completely gone.
A HUGE chunk of OUR power has just been stolen from under our (the peoples) noses AND with our active consent and encouragement!
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Michael Martin's resignation may be appropriate or not. Irrelevance! I consider the house should be dissolved so that we can elect or re-elect honest and truely honerable MPs. For this to happen the PM would need to use his prerogative, but won't lest he is not returned as leader of the party with most seats. I wish the Monarch had real and not only constitutional powers to act. The country needs a legisliture it has confidence in. And we lack that at the moment.
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Nick - I seem to recall a few months ago you quoted some of your blog replies in one of your main bulletins. Please therefore quote this:
Michael Martin is a victim of his own actions and deserves what has happened today. We want the parties to deselect those who have done wrong, no matter how senior they are, and bring in new candidates who we can hope will uphold the trust we have in them. We want this as soon as possible and any further prevarication is only worsening the position of those who stand in its way. So please have faith in your convictions to do the right thing and put us out of this misery so we can do what is needed for the country, rather than worrying about the squalid mess at Westminster. Once this has been instigated then we need a general election to give the people the right that they so desperately wish to exercise.
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Given the way all this came to light (and it was going to come to light anyway) why is it considered acceptable to steal material that does not belong to you and sell it to a Newspaper?
Also why is so little criticism aimed at David Cameron? He rightly says that this is a matter of morality and not legality, but what is moral about a man who is a millionaire claiming the maximum allowed on his mortgage?
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We need a new Speaker but who shall it be, how will they be selected?
We need a person of our time.
How about a selection process as in "The Apprentice" or "How do You Solve a Problem Like Maria?" ?
Prospective candidates could be set appropriate tasks like "Design an expenses rule book for the HOC" or make presentations such as "The reforms I see Necessary to Bring Westminster into the 21st Century".
There would be a panel of experts to opine on the merits of each candidate's performance, and telephone votes from the public.
It would make riveting TV, be an absolute hoot and I'm sure the winning candidate would be a popular and highly competent speaker.
:):)
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#245
"So 600 MP's went to the House of Commons for a 5 minute resignation speech. The question that comes to mind is how much will the 600 MPs have claimed, as exepenses, to attend this. Perhaps if they watched at home on the TV's they have already claimed on expenses."
Has it ever occurred to you that they might have already been at their place of work, funny that ever since that statement there have been many MP's in the chamber debating the days business, no doubt many more will be in offices, select committees within the Houses of Parliament, others whilst not in the Parliament precinct will be in government offices of the wider Whitehall area etc.
Is it any wonder that our MPs often decide that it's just not worth trying to relate to those outside the 'Westminster bubble' when so many seem to be so ignorant about even the most basic information as to what the job is - why not claim that the BBC newsreader could work from home via a web-cam too?!
[/angry]
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"writingsonthewall wrote:
#186 mark_we
"You would have 650 odd people all fighting amongst themselves for the roles of PM, CoE, etc. "
...and that's different to the current system because........?"
Well if there was a Labour leadership election then a candidate would need to be supported by a certain percentage of sitting Labour MPs (I would expect that the Tory party have much the same rules)
Without political parties you would likely get power blocks i.e. London and South East MPs would probably join together and use there weight to force one of their number into a position of power. That person could then reward their backers by promoting them to the other positions of power.
Nothing would happen if 650 equal voices are trying to shout at the same time so groupings would have to form.
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Nick,
Let us be honest. What - in any idealised series of events - could he have done to avoid being ousted.
His time was up as soon as the panic in Westminster reached near hysteria.
I think the mid-term fallout of recent events shall be that many decent people will never enter politics and many "sub-prime" people will. The situation is becoming comical. It is a never-ending, relentless, media-fuelled attack on any and every aspect of public life.
And making a bad situation apocalyptic seems the only thing the disparate members of the media can manage to agree on.
I imagine a few journalists will have given up their political aspirations, at least. Now that the MP's expenses gravy-train has left the station. Why give up the perks of being a journalist?
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He was clearly out of his depth on this issue and its right he will go on 21st June. But those jumping up and down for a General Election now please stop and think. We have only had incomplete expenses revelations by the Daily Telegraph. We need to wait until everything is published and more guilt revealed before a G.E. otherwise we risk putting someone back for another term who has robbed the taxpayer. We need to get all guilty parties out of Westminster not just the few we know about now and that will take some time for the journalists and others pour over the data thats released in the coming weeks and months. It needs less kneejerk and more sense to clean up parliament.
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Nothing to do with class.
Now Lord Foulkes has been on the BBC to say that it is because he is a Catholic.
Give me strength, just when you thought they could not get any more pathetic.
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#260
"Regarding calls for a General Election. Why is David Cameron in such a rush?
Is this an attempt to hide further revalations?"
Interesting comment, and quite correct, if there was a General Election called the media would have to obey the various laws relating to the Representation of the People Act. Nah, to cynical by half...
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Post 260 Dave is calling for an election because it is a no lose situation for him.
He knows Gordon can't go for it so he can seem "in tune" with the general public by seeking a fresh mandate. This makes him look good in the public eye. This reinforces the recent perception of him as being able to and willing to respond to public demands and by implication makes Gordon look bad.
Anyone who read the popular press last weekend would see that this is in line with the views of key press decision makers at both the Mail and News International. This allows them to put up lots of positive stories about him and the Conservatives being in line with popular opinion (i.e. theirs).
Merely by asking for an election he puts Gordon and the government on the back foot. they have to respond to this which all the time keeps a negative spotlight on labour.
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I have no wish to gloat, having supported claims for Speaker Martin to go, now that he has announced his intention to go on 21st June, 2009.
The speculation as to why he has today made that decision, and why he has also decided to resign as an M.P. is open to debate. I assume that as Speaker, if he ceased to be an M.P. he could not continue. Does this apply conversely; or is it a matter of pride (something I understand) that he could not return to the back benches?
Was it, however, the decision of the C.P.S. and the Police not to investigate the leak of M.P's expenses to the Telegraph? As that was announced by the B.B.C. this morning (I saw it on Ceefax) it may well have been the catalyst that ultimately swayed his view to act as he did.
Parliament must swiftly move on. We are in a serious state with the downturn. The Government must try to sort this out, stop making Head-line gathering news spits and concentrate on the matters in hand. The Scrappage Scheme must be sorted immediately if we are not to be a laughing stock in the automative world. Ford and Honda have announced a brake on deliveries to dealers until some-one with authority leads on the V.A.T. situation.
In the meantime I end with this thought, Anne Widdecome for Speaker?
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#266
"if they do not have the honour to stand down and call a general election, then the Queen and the Military should force them to go"
Oh great, now we have people calling for a military coup!
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278. I am heartily fed up with this imbalance of Scottish people in parliament. There was a particularly irate strident shrill MP who almost attacked the BBC interview John Sopel outside parliament today (on camera) because of his (the MP) unswerving loyalty to Martin.
Good point I heard on the wireless just now : We have a Scottish, Welsh and Northern Assembly why not an ENGLISH Assembly?
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Now watch all the main party leaders who are saying that they will deselect MPs who have broken the rules over expences say that all claims were within the rules and that the rules were wrong. We will never get rid of this lot they have no shame.
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So Michael Martin has resigned as the Speaker. I'm not quite sure what to think! Martin has graciously declared, perhaps not through his rhetoric, but by his action that he is willing to stand-down in light of his involvement in the scandal; however I solemnly believe that it is the duty of the electorate to see beyond the frantic finger-pointing of MPs and never succumb to the illusion that Martin was responsible - therefore avoiding him being a scapegoat.
Though Michael Martin's demise is certainly notable - in the wider picture he was a long-serving backbone of Westminster both before and after his election as Speaker, and it would do not only his Glaswegian electorate, but the national community no good in marring any of his former prowess with the sleeze that - like children in a lunctime food fight, is laying our whole democratic integrity to waste.
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Cynicalyorkie1 writes:
-----------------------------------
The trend continues...
Bank of Scotland fails
Royal Bank of Scotland fails
Dumfermline Building Society fails
Scottish Prime Minister
Scottish Chancellor
Scottish Speaker of the House
...anyone for devolution?
-----------------------------------
As a Scot - I think an increasing number are ready now. On both sides of the border.
Simply because I am becoming increasingly tired of the increasing antagonism whenever I am working or staying in England.
England is the only place in 43 years - and a deal of travelling - I have been racially abused, refused a meal because of my accent and physically asaulted - while sitting in a bar with good English friends - for being Scottish.
So - whichever side of the border you come from - I think devolution is becoming very attractive indeed.
And so many Scottish people in high office - speaks volumes about the inability of others to have stepped up to the mark.
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I hate the current government and the Tories and Liberals as well for one policy consensus that cancels out anything positive they've done in the last ten years as far as I'm concerned, but I think the Commons Speaker is getting a rough deal. He is only supposed to do what MPs want, and it seems that they wanted to claim opulent "expenses" and to make sure no one found out about it to embarrass them. This failed, but not by the Speaker's failure, except in apparently allowing all the receipt data to be nicked and given to a newspaper, which admittedly is poor work by the Speaker but it was going to be published anyway. So now he gets to be scapegoat for parliament - which probably is part of the job as well. He gets condemned to execution so that, up to a point, the rest of them don't have to.
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"writingsonthewall wrote:
#207 Mark_we
"Of course for some socialists just being born to money means they deserve it"
I don't think so, the ONLY people who believe in being born into money being deserved are the PRODUCTIVELY USELESS - those who would not survive if they didn't inherit their wealth."
I didn't mean that they deserved the money, my comment was in reply to one that seemed to suggest that it is ok to treat rich people unfairly!
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#270
My point was about how far do one take this flipping witch hunt, nothing about protecting anyone but making silly ill-defined suggestion that just because just did their job is getting rediculous, only a few comments above yours we even have someone suggesting a coup to force an election, WILL PEOPLE START TO GET REAL.
An MP said last week that this expenses scandal is a big threat your our democracy, I'm starting to think he or she was correct, if you want blood pop down to your local beef or pork butcher...
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The plea of "class-based prejudice and snobbery" is in this case, as is so often, is the only defence available to a person with nothing else to offer.
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This is a nonsense and a humiliation for parliament.
Constitutionally this undermines the whole of the parliamentary process - the position of Speaker should not be a scapegoat for the mistakes of the body of MPs. It is not just the Speaker who is a problem; all MPs are both causal and implicated in this - either for not following the rules or for not making the right rules.
Where parliament should have made rules it did not. Where parliament should have policed itself it did not. Where it should have supported its speaker it did not. It is not just the speaker who should resign it is the whole of parliament.
This is a humiliation for all MPs - they are all part of the problem and should all resign now.
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We should all breathe a sigh of relief that he went quietly in the end.
Next step is how to clean up the democratic system. A massive job for it is not just parliament that needs cleaning up but the whole of the public services quangos and the rest of the bunch who have been wasting public money right left and centre.
All parties need to clean up their acts whether it be resignations of questionable MP's or deselections of those who should but won't resign.
This will take some time and cannot be done while parliament is sitting.
Therefore it needs to be dissolved and an emergency cross party executive appointed to run the country until order is resumed and a general election can be held.
This is certainly no worse than the situation we are in now where no one is able to control what is an abysmal situation for the country and its people.
There is no sensible alternative to democracy but it needs to be cleaned up and brought into the 21st century.
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Personally I would like to see a bigger end to the frivolity with Tax-payers money.
End the monarchy.
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Let us not forget that it is the 'honourable' MP's themselves who are responsible for abusing the expense system. Martin only aided and abetted.
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"Boilerplated wrote:
#260
"Regarding calls for a General Election. Why is David Cameron in such a rush?
Is this an attempt to hide further revalations?"
Interesting comment, and quite correct, if there was a General Election called the media would have to obey the various laws relating to the Representation of the People Act. Nah, to cynical by half..."
My guess is that it is more to do with the fact that The Sun also seems to be calling for an election. Like it or not The Sun does have an impact on voting intent and if Cameron can appeal to The Sun readers it will improve his chances.
I have to think that Cameron is trying to jump on a band wagon here. He has came up with some good suggestions to move forward on this issue and has came out of it a lot stronger then Brown, however he has yet to risk exposing his hand on other major issues.
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#282
"I personally hope that Frank Field doesn't stand for the role of Speaker. He seems to be one of the few Labour MPs who is actually honourable and I think that the party would be better suited with him still in it."
A valid point, but I disagree about the worth to his party, since his treatment at the hands of Blair (telling him to think 'Blue Skys' and then publicly rebuking him for doing so) he has been a lone voice within the party, his value is to the country - in that he might consider that he is worth more to the country as Speaker than a back bench MP.
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I hope that whoever takes over also looks at pension arrangements so that taxpayers who cannot afford a pension of their own are not funding MPs who do not contribute.
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I think commentators here who feel sorry for Michael Martin should spare a thought for Mrs Martin. He'll have more time to practise his beloved bagpipes. Jings, crivvens...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Come off it, Nick, being working class doesn't make a man ineloquent and slow-witted. He was forced out because of his faults, and his faults are not those of the working classes, they are the faults exposed by sailing too far from shore. A man best suited to a pedalo was given command of the seas; a sea now foaming with effluent.
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"Others will insist that this Glaswegian sheet metal worker was the victim of class-based prejudice and snobbery."
Absolute nonsense Nick. Had the man been upto the job he would still be in it.
As for being a victim of class based prejudice and snobbery, may I remind you that the previous incumbent, Betty Boothroyd hailed from a far less propitious background than did Michael Martin yet she was a very able and respected speaker of the commons.
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Oh, what a jolly wheeze - get the oink to take the blame.
However, in my book the story hasn't changed one jot - MPs have been using the expenses system to line their pockets and shame on them.
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"quijote1303 wrote:
England is the only place in 43 years - and a deal of travelling - I have been racially abused, refused a meal because of my accent and physically asaulted - while sitting in a bar with good English friends - for being Scottish."
That seems to cut both ways, after the England-Scotland game in 1996 (Euro game) one of my friends was beaten up by a bunch of Scottish lads for celebrating the England victory. While I have met several Scots who seem to have a bit of a problem generally with the English the majority of them are fine. I was racially abused working in a shop because of our policy towards Scottish bank notes (we accepted them but they needed to be authorised by a supervisor). There are idiots on both sides of the border.
"And so many Scottish people in high office - speaks volumes about the inability of others to have stepped up to the mark."
Considering the performance of some of the Scots in power at present it seems to be more of a case of people being promoted above their ability!
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How can anyone expect parliament and the government to make important decisions when they cannot even manage an expenses system properly. Governmental decisions made over the years are by politicians and civil servants who are not qualified to work in the industries and services that they make decisions about. Perhaps parliament and government can take this opportunity to set a precedent and start giving jobs to people who are competent and know what they are doing. Oh I wish.
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So the coward Brown appears after Martin has faced the music to tell him how great he was.
Brown has be missing in the last few days on this one he even skulked out of the house before Martin got ripped apart.
Shameless.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#311
"
My guess is that it is more to do with the fact that The Sun also seems to be calling for an election. Like it or not The Sun does have an impact on voting intent and if Cameron can appeal to The Sun readers it will improve his chances."
Valid point but slightly wrong, if Cameron can appeal to the owner of the The Sun then the Sun will appeal to it's readers - or am I being to cynical again?...
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How do MPs and Government Ministers have time to work out expenses claim scams such as flipping homes? I have a real job and have hardly anytime to breathe. What government business is being postponed as the pigs attempt to clean out their own trough?
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What a pathetic defense of Speaker Martin from the odious Lord Foulkes.
Apparently the campaign against the Speaker was because he was the first Catholic elected to the post.
His religion was unknown to most and irelevant, as is the fact he is a Scot.
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#321
It's not what you say more often than not but how you say it - actually that was also the problem with Speaker Martin in the end...
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"Regarding calls for a General Election. Why is David Cameron in such a rush?
Is this an attempt to hide further revalations?"
Well there is the second jobs scandal looming on the horizon which could one of several ways
1. It is discovered that MPs with 2nd jobs are receiving a fair wage for the hours they put in on a job which in no way interferes with parliamentary or constituency work.
2. It is discovered that some mps with second jobs seem tp spend more time working for their other employers than doing mp work.
3. It is discovered that MPs with 2nd jobs do little quantifiable work for their other employers but receive a massive wage, raising the question what exactly they are being paid for.
Cameron i imagine is in a quandry about scenario 3, as there is a danger that should this be the case then hostile media (and myself- but he'll be less worried about that) will try to portray the shadow cabinet as taking kickbacks from big business in advance of the day when they form a government.
Perish the thought
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election now.
at least Cameron is saying regardless of whether it was within the rules etc, mp's will deselected if its felt they delibrately abused the system, he has also told the party activist's how to aswell, and that all mp's should give account of themselves, brown once again playing catch up, he has said nothing that Cameron has'nt already said, only Cameron wants to go further, get rid of gordon brown now, call an election,
in fact if every blogger that wants an election now, starts and finishes with that statement perhaps the message might get through.
election now.
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So, he's stepped down, or is stepping down in June. Good. It's a start. He's done the decent thing. As for him being a scapegoat, no. He's stepped down because of public reaction that has swayed opinion in his confidence which has highlighted a disgrace in our parliamentary system.
Now we need to look at the next step. Martin has gone because he defended a system that is immoral, or has been used / abused immorally. That old adage, rules are made to be broken, cannot be applied in such circumstances as this. In this day and age, rules are made to protect and provide fairness. We live in a rule based society. Morality seems to take a back seat to rules.
Today, we expect our politicians to be above reproach. No arguement there - they should be. But, there should also be a system in place that ensures that they are. I said in an earlier blog that it is the system that needs to change. If the system allows immoral behaviour, and checks are not in place to prevent immoral use of that system, then it is the system that has failed.
We need to draw distinctions now.
MPs that have used the system to full advantage - to their own personal full advantage, but have not broken the law, only infringing on a moral code, should be subject to the power of the people and only re-elected upon merit at any up-coming General Election.
MPs that have used the system to their personal gain, and can be proven to have exploited or broken the law, with specific reference to financial gain by deception, otherwise known as fraud, should be subject to the full power of law, arrested, investigated, charged appropriately and sentenced accordingly.
Resignations, apologies and admittances of a mistake being made are not excuses to escape investigation at the very least. It wouldn't be for any other member of society, so should not be for MPs. It could, however, be taken into account in any plea for leniency by the courts.
In the meantime, the system needs to be re-written to take account of the needs of our elected officials, with realistic rules and allowances. It should be stated by all party leaders that MPs are financially accountable for their own affairs, and anyone found to be making fraudulent claims or benefitting financially from such allowances, will be referred to legal processes in the same way as any other citizen of the United Kingdom.
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It is interesting to see the mealy mouthed MPs queueing up to tell us how sorry they feel for Martin. A clear cut case of 'There but for the Grace of God go I'.
In fact we should all tell it as it is. Martin was easily the worst Speaker in the history of the office. (except, of course, for the previous one who got bumped out 300 odd years ago.)
He was sly, biased, ignorant, duplicious and greedy, and so puffed up with his own importance that he almost burst. It seems he was also a liar, and a coward, if we are to believe the words of the people who worked for him, and, of course, he was a bully.
Very good reasons for him to go, and very good reasons for Brown to follow him, for Brown up until two days ago was telling us that he believed Martin was doing a good job.
Martin wasn't to blame for the expenses scandal. He was to blame for using our money in an attempt to keep us in the dark, and that is not forgivable by any standards.
He should be put out to grass, and quietly forgotten. A blot on history that deserves no consideration!
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Aside from the rights and wrongs of the speaker, the expences abuse are the nitty-gritty that requires sorting ASAP. I'm not in favour of the police getting involved as they have more on their plate dealing with crime on the streets. Given that accusations have been made on capital gains tax avoidance and allowances being claimed on non-existant mortgages, then surely the tax man should be given the task of inspecting ALL the MP's allowances for possible fraud etc. In addition, they should already have much of the information needed by way of tax returns etc., something the police would no doubt need permission to access and be fobbed off for weeks or months or even years.
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Hi Nick
I have to disagree with your comments about class. They are irrelevant on this issue. The simple truth is that he has long been accused of not being up to the job and yesterday his extraordinary display reinforced this.
The class arguement if you will forgive me is low class and low quality...
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#326 Boilerplated
I think all of your posts have been pretty spot on, I've detected a hint of insanity surrounding the expenses furore. Anyone who didn't know that our political system was corrupt has been writing (perhaps on this blog) too much - they should start reading and not just the Daily Mail.
It's also puzzling to see that people have forgotten that the Tories are just as involved and even though in numerous cases they're only part-timers (not Francis Maude anymore as the company specialising in sub-prime loans that he was chairman of has gone bust).
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Several commentators are assuming that the general public are mugs and that the "finger-pointing" and "scapegoating" of Martin will somehow make us forget the other troughers. Give the public a chance to vote and the Met and HMRC the freedom to apply the law. "They will not be forgotten".
315. braveSouter
Not an inspiring line-up, but at least the 'lazy' international cigarette salesman knows how to balance the books and the 14 pint a day baseball cap wearing drayman (LOL) will lubricate any diplomatic exchanges rather than insult foreigners.
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#327
"How do MPs and Government Ministers have time to work out expenses claim scams such as flipping homes? I have a real job and have hardly anytime to breathe."
That is why you are - well what ever you are - (I assume your user name is irrelevant to your occupation?!...) and they are MPs, multitasking doesn't even come near, some I'm sure must dream politics - oh and make no mistake about it, they have real jobs to, it's just that most people only bother to watch the bear-pit that is PMQ's on a Wednesday...
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~144 AFRICAMAN2
Yes I agree with your post and see what you see too. But it will be very difficult to 'prise' MP's out of their very comfortable positions. This is unfortunately what Brown and most MP's do - they point at someone else rather than see anything wrong with their own behaviour. I very much doubt that Brown (an unfortunate name) will leave himself open for attack though.
129 writingsonthewall is right that we have to keep the pressure up to change our system for the good of everyone and the country
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I am watching the PM's monthly news conference on BBC News 24. Beyond the obvious about the Speaker , his friends, plus the MP's who have diddled us, is that the PM has a very narrow range of answers to a wide spectrum of questions on a complex topic. It saddens me ... maybe 'Nick' would make a rather modern and effective Speaker...
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Good to see you had first question at the PM's press conference today and that he called you Nick.
You have just gone up a teeny bit in my estimation (from a very low base I'm afraid) if you have to regularly sit through rambling, repetitious, waffle like that.
I thought the PM was very generous to say that he would let the Speaker tell you all about what was decided today, before going on to tell us what was decided today! and then add a quick reprise of all the wonderful things he has done and is going to do for us.
All opposition parties should be writing to thank the BBC for putting it out in full on at least PM on Radio 4. It will have done Labour's electoral chances no end of harm, probably confirming in ever more people's minds that we appear to have a lunatic in charge (allegedly) of the asylum!
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330
"3. It is discovered that MPs with 2nd jobs do little quantifiable work for their other employers but receive a massive wage, raising the question what exactly they are being paid for."
No problem with that surely, unless we are talking pure jealousy, if a private company wants to pay someone for not doing anything, they pay their taxes and the share holders are happy whose concern is it out the company?
I don't think that Cameron would be worried about that one, any problem will be either what they do (inappropriate contacts etc.) or - as you said in you second bullet-point - that far to many MPs are spending far to much time doing other work.
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First off those saying the Speaker was not subjected to Class smears and snobbery have obviously never heard what many (mostly tory) mps called him behind his back, it not only smears his accent but also his place of birth and upbringing, were this to be said about anyone who was not white it would no doubt be considered racist!
Second, was he the best speaker? No, but if anyone thinks he is worse than all the others in the last 300 years they are simply wrong.
Nick, less than 5% of MPs challenged the speakers authority, but apparently this is a resigning matter, yet I doubt a single speaker in the last 300 years had the support of more than 95% of the house, do you think the PM should resign if 5% of the house (or his own mps) are against him? If so the I doubt we'd ever have a PM for more than 1 term again, and can't think of a single PM in the last 100 years who would command that support. Do you think that if 5% of license fee payers decided that a bbc journalist is doing a bad job they should be removed? After all they too are paid for by the taxpayer!
The is a simple reason why this speaker has been forced to stand down, and that is because it benifits the MPs, they blame him for fighting the FOI request, yet requested he fight it, they say he should have seen this comming and fixed it earlier, yet voted against his proposals last year, he is in short, a scape-goat and a distraction, it is amazing how many times the media let a story die once they have forced a resignation, they will do the same with this unless they see more comming, in the meantime in the last week the media have been focusing on the Speaker while a whole host of MPs dodgy expense claims have been burried under this, when the media smell blood they ignore all else till they get it, fox hunting is much less cruel than what the media do!
One final point, can we have a bit less obvious bias from the BBC, Gordon got a grilling over his expensies, despite the Telegraph saying he did nothing wrong, Cameron and Clegg both come up with lame anwsers to defend stuff that one of them admits was wrong (hence paid back) and that most people think the other did wrong, and then it's "ok, next question" and the media blindly accept and move on. Two weeks ago Gordon said that action should be taken now, the media agreed with Cameron that it should wait till after the review, this week Cameron says action should be taken now, the media agrees and praises his "leadership" The hypocrasy is as disgusting as it is obvious, we had 5-6 years of Slavish adoration of our last PM, and you are repeating all your mistakes with our likely next!
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So we may have to have a by election as a result of today's events. I bet Mr Brown is looking forward to that!
I'm sure the SNP are rubbing their hands in anticipation.
By the way Mr Martin was not a victim of the class system just out of his depth. I almost feel sorry for him. Betty Boothroyd came from a humble background and is widely acknowledged as having been a great success by most commentators and MPs
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hopefully moderaters will find this comment more acceptable?
what a bumbling embarrassment brown is, 'call an election now'
nick your questions were a waste, thank god for the likes adam boulton and others.
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I suppose that Mr Cameron has to be seen to be calling for a General Election. Personally I do not think that an election held in the current climate would be useful, given our financial woes. As the forthcoming European elections may show, there is a real danger that inappropriate people will be elected in, due to the understandable anger in the country over the expenses scandal.
I find that it is often better to sit back and reflect before acting in haste (Mr Brown please note.)Therefore if an election must be announced let us have a relatively long campaign in order that well thought out reform can be thought through and proposed by political parties alongside their more conventional policies. MPs who have crossed the line can be de selected (or stand down) to allow for more acceptable candiates to be promoted.
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We demand an election, we demand OUR voice be heard and how do they react? The REMOVE even more power from our elected representatives. We demand that they do their job properly, and the abdicate it entirely!
THEY DO NOT GET IT NICK.
This is not even too little too late, this is going in entirely the WRONG direction!
Election NOW!
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Robinson writes just like a member of the 'Westminster Village' would write. The real responsibility lies with the Members. Everything Martin has done has been with the complete approval of the Members, until the Telegraph outed the lot of them , and then all the fingers looked for someone to point at. Yuck.
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The PM has finally understood an important aspect of the affair: by invoking Parliamentary procedure to avoid a debate on a motion of no confidence, the Speaker chipped away futher at the public's view of the House of Commons and reinforced the stereotype of that place being an exclusive, proceduralised and self-satisfied old boys' club.
I think the mess will only be resolved when career politics gives way to public service and centralisation yields to a more local form of representation and involvement. The parties have to stop behaving as though they are businesses, with big marketing and PR budgets. MPs have to stop thinking they are entrepreneurs, out to build up property portfolios and advance their powerbase. And they have to stop using the media to run the country.
They have trapped themselves in a Westminster bubble where position is everything and position equals power and money and they can't seem to break out of it. We can't do much until an election and even then we are hamstrung by the first past the post system: want to start a new party with a new type of politics? No chance.
The worst case scenario is that nothing changes and the public loses even more interest, letting extremists fill the vacuum.
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He paid the price for dishonesty. It also show that some politicians have no integrity and respect for the voters. Since the speaker resign by force I want to see the politicians who fraduently took tax payers money to live it up should eitheir face the courts or resign.
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Listened to Gordon Brown and he still does not get it. Asked why Hazel Blears was still serving in the cabinet. He said her conduct was not acceptable but she had not broken any rules and she had paid the money back. He really, really does not get it. When will he wake up to reality and realise what has been going on. I am at loss to understand him. He like Michael Martin is a dead man walking.
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WE NEED AN ELECTION RIGHT NOW - we've lost confidence in Parliament and that's a very dangerous thing to happen - 6o million people need assurances that they can leave their interests in the hands of a trustworthy few otherwise the whole fabric of society crumbles (not to mention right-wing voting) so they need to call a general election.
Gordon Brown must resign and call a general election
http://www.stepdowngordonbrown.co.uk/
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Gorbals Mick must not :
1 be given a payoff on resignation
2 be given an honour of any kind whatso ever
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350 SensibleCHARITY. You have this slightly wrong. They should be de selected and an election called for later in the year. That way they can defend themselves in Court if necessary, without impacting on the business of Parliament. Let us have a Government with a mandate to Govern
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A few points must be made here.
1. No-one has cast any judgements on whether he was a good constituency MP or not. So IF he wants to stay a back-bench MP, and IF his electors vote him in, that's fine.
2. I do not think that Gordon Brown understands any longer that the reform of the HOC is not for him to drive. He has come out with quick announcements as to the nature of the new settlement, something which is ENTIRELY inappropriate. The whole problem with HOC is poorly developed policy forced through by bullying whips. This should be a once-in-an-epoch change and those changes should be proposed not only by all current MPs, but former MPs, Peers, the public and relevant experts. Mr Brown needs to look at himself in the mirror and back off.
3. The key discussions are:
i. Do we want honorable MPs who open their processes and funding streams for general view, but who self-regulate in the knowledge that they will be examined healthily?
ii. Or do we want an HOC which has thrown in its responsible towel, basically saying: 'we're a bunch of reprobates - you can't trust us to run HOC'.
If the latter, why the hell are they there in the first place?
4. Beyond that, there needs to be a root and branch look at EVERYTHING.
i. Why does voting have to take place in a lobby, forcing MPs to be in Westminster? Doesn't ICT exist to allow voting from home, with suitable audit trails and beeper messages to remind MPs to vote?
ii. Why is a party which represents less than 40% of the population always given carte blanche to rule? Does this do the country good or would need-based government be more effective?
iii. Should HOC have facilities for MPs to record videos for constituents for uploading?
iv. What percentage of PMQ allocated time actually addresses issues effectively and how much of it is taxpayer-funded duelling for duelling's sake?
v. How effective is HOC at canvassing detailed expert opinion RAPIDLY concerning clauses of bills? Do they not think that expert comment on particular clauses can be done in a massively parallel manner?
vi. How many MPs do we actually NEED now? And more importantly, why do we still need Scottish MPs, when they have their own Parliament and England does not? Will there be a specific ban on voting for Scots and Welsh MPs when concerning England's lawmaking?
vii. When will a law be enacted REQUIRING A MINIMUM OF 24 HOURS OF PROPER DEBATING TIME before authorising the Govt to go to war?
viii. When will MPs and political parties be required to disclose in full all surveillance activities they carry out, all the sources of sensitive information they receive and state under oath that they are not party to any unacceptable invasions of privacy?
ix. When will it be stated that foreign donors to parties be published in full, since the UK has a right to know which foreigners wish to influence our policy for good or evil?
x. What percentage of case work can be carried out in the constituencies and what staffing is therefore still essential in London?
xi. Is SW1 a cost-effective place for the UK Parliament to be?
That should do for starters........from all that will come thoughts about building fit-for-purposeness etc etc.
Now I don't think that such deliberations should be rushed through. I think this is something which needs everything thought through thoroughly, so I am strongly against any Michael Martin-inspired rush-through enforced by some bullying whips.
And I would ask Mr Cameron to state straight away that his first bill introduced after the election will be the repealing of any rush-job right now.
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342.Boilerplated wrote:
No problem with that surely, unless we are talking pure jealousy, if a private company wants to pay someone for not doing anything, they pay their taxes and the share holders are happy whose concern is it out the company?
=================================
I'm not personally jellous (honest guv)
I'm thinking how the editor of the Daily **** would love wipping up the pubics overabundance of righteous indignation when they discover that some mps get 2 wages.
We live in a society where i've personally overheard people damning footballers wages as though the money would otherwise be donated to charity.
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Michael Martin should have gone long ago. If anything, the expenses fiasco has been the least of his problems. The fact that he debased the office of Speaker by behaving as a government stooge from day one is all the reason needed for his ultimate humiliation to be a reason for great joy.
Interested to see which Labour stooge Gordon foists on Parliament next.
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Nick, you assert that 'victim of class-based prejudice and snobbery.' What is the evidence to support this?
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275. At 4:21pm on 19 May 2009, Boilerplated wrote:
#209
"The government should buy a block of 500 student type flats for MP's to use in London while they are MP's"
"An how much would the security cost, what a marvellous target for terrorist, it would make the Brighton Grand bombing look like a tea-party in comparison, not just the Government but the opposition too..."
security cost would be less than they are now as only having one or two building to guard instead of 650 places on the security check list in London
I am in favor of taking all and any gain out of MP's hands so we the people are the one who own the property that MP's use in London and make it that an MP is working for us and not build a nice little nest egg for him or her self
You seem to be in favor of MP's keeping the status quo
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We can't trust MPs. The answer is a new Charter that asserts our sovereignty and defines MPs' pay. Here is a starter:
Charter 09
1. Principles
- All British subjects (of the Queen) share equal sovereignty within the United Kingdom. That is, the people are sovereign.
- The people exercise their sovereignty through an elected Parliament.
- An elected parliament must not give any of that sovereignty away without the express approval of the people through a referendum. Such a sovereignty referendum will have the question, Do you agree to your Parliament ceding sovereignty over [one or more specific things] to [body to which sovereignty would be ceded]? Yes or No.
- The referendum fails, and sovereignty can NOT be ceded unless (a) 75% or more vote Yes and (b) the turnout is at least 66.67%.
- Every five years, all subjects of the Queen may vote in country-wide elections for an MP to represent them in Parliament.
- To be elected, an MP must have held permanent employment (either with an employer or self-employed and profitable, or as a company director where the company is profitable) for at least fifteen years.
2. Elections
- An immediate general election.
- Add None of the Above to the ballot paper all these votes will be counted and reported.
3. Away from Home Allowances
- Home is deemed to be in the Constituency
- While in London, MPs will be put up in public accommodation larger if family is staying in London and family is larger.
- Expenses will be: not more than 10 return tickets standard class from home to London.
- Travel expenses when duty calls MP away from home and London accommodation are claimable:
- Economy class on flights (proper Ministers and Shadow Ministers go Business; PM and leaders of main parties (more than 10% of MPs in House of Commons) go first.
- Hotels in mid-range price bracket, except that PM and leaders of Opposition parties stay in the Embassy
- Restaurant meals, morning and evening meals (but not midday) with set upper claimable by country.
- Taxis are claimable.
- All expenses to be receipted and checked for validity no receipt no claim.
- An external independent body will adjudge hardship cases, with all inflation on such cases, other than private medical information, to be published at most 20 days after judgement, or if a long-running case, each 3 months. or detailed information
4. Pay
- MPs are paid for exercising sovereignty on behalf of all UK subjects. They are not [paid to transfer that sovereignty, without the peoples agreement, elsewhere.
- An MP will be paid £200,000 per year (increasing or decreasing annually in line with inflation or deflation) when the peoples sovereignty is exercised wholly within the United Kingdom. That is, when no body outside the United Kingdom can make law that affects those within the United Kingdom. (Note: international agreements are not law, since no UK subject voted for those making such agreements.) That percentage of laws to which UK subjects are liable that are not made in Parliament will be deducted, pro rata, from MPs yearly salary. For example, if 80% of laws do not come through Parliament, but through quangos and the EU, then 80% will be deducted from MPs salaries.
- Government ministers and opposition shadows will be paid more than the basic £200,000, although for Government ministers, the non-Parliamentary law making deduction deduction will be increased by 15%. So, for example, if 80% of laws are made outside Parliament, then Government ministers will suffer a (80*1.15)% deduction. If this percentage goes negative, then it means that MPs and/or Ministers get no salary, and must instead pay money to a nominated Charity. There will be a period of five years where this paragraph of the Charter does not apply.
- An outside independent body will determine the percentage of laws that apply within the United Kingdom but that are passed by bodies outside the United Kingdom. All information used or produced by this body will be published at least six months before any referendum is held.
- There will be a limit on the number of laws that can be passed by Statutory Instruments or similar mechanisms that bypass Parliament. The number of such laws (and what constitutes a law) will be agreed by an outside independent body and put to the people in a sovereignty referendum (see above).
End of draft Charter.
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Mark_WE replied:
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Considering the performance of some of the Scots in power at present it seems to be more of a case of people being promoted above their ability!
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I would not disagree with you, Mark_WE. My response was not really intended to defend the poor performance of the people in question. It was more a response to trying to make it a Race issue.
There are as many bad MP's fom outside of Scotland as within it. There seem to be too many bad MP's full-stop.
But descending to silly comments calling for devolution simply irritated me. I find it increasingly common on political and sports discussions - in both directions - and I am getting tired of it. I notice you did not rise to the bait and thank you for it! Makes an argument far more persuasive when it is not backed up by bigotry - no matter how "slight" and "humorous" it may seem.
Anyway - one outcome of all this - and I am being completely serious - is that devolution may not be so far away any longer. Given total disillussionment in Westminster and the City - a General Election soon would almost certainly result in obliteration of any Scottish support of the Westminster system. And that is not intended to belittle anyone.
Much talk exists of UKIP and BNP as well as small parties benefitting fom the current state of Politics. That would be as nothing compared to the support SNP would receive north of the border.
And their first act in the current crisis - get well away while the going is good.
Which would disappoint me - personally.
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It should always the 'the best man for the job'
Regardless of class, sex, or race. Always! And not put people in positions just because of their class, sex or race.
Will the next speaker be a conservative??
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Brown's claim that the House has operated like a 'gentleman's club' is laughable! If Hon Members had behaved like gentle-folk, we wouldn't be in this mess now.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8056747.stm
The stench of hypocrisy as MPs line up to put all the blame on the Speaker is overwhelming.
The Speaker clearly handled things badly and sealed his own fate when he appeared to be more concerned about the leaks than the revelations themselves.
But things are not going to get better until we have a wholesale clearout that can only happen with a General Election. If backbench Labour MPs had any integrity, they would now be forming an orderly queue to tell Brown he should follow the Speaker's example.
The money lost to the taxpayer through MPs' expenses is a tiny drop in the ocean compared to the billions Brown has cost our economy.
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After listening to Alex Salmond just now on C4 News, it occurred to me that rather than being a humilation of the Westminster Parliament as such, it is really a condemnation of the English people for their political apathy, which has allowed this to occur.
The Scots, to their credit, have voted for their own people via the SNP, who have implemented rigourous controls and total transparency on their own politicans in the Scottish Parliament.
Whereas the politically apathetic English have let Westminster continue to do as it wishes and even now, it is mainly Scottish politicians at Westminster who are tasked to clean up the system.
I simply find it hard to comprehend why my fellow English people are not more interested in who is actually running England and apparently do not find it odd that the two other home nations have their own Parliament/Assembly but the English have nothing.
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astounding hypocrisy from the labour party!
it beggers belief that they openly criticise other parties "playing party politics" on one day, then the next, instead of the speaker of the house announcing the results of discussions between all major and minority parties (which was promised in the speaker's own commons statement on monday) suddenly disappears into thin air - and brown announces the results of discussions to a watching public in a news conference on peak time news bulletins!
as for the speaker himself, he went for one reason only, he was rubbish at his job!
he chaired the panel that continuously paid out expenses that the public found unacceptable, and he did not one jot about it!
"class" being part of the problem is complete and utter tosh!
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May I present an argument for MPs who have been 'caught' claiming interest on mortgages they have paid off.
Let us say that the MP had three hundred thousand pounds outstanding on his second home's mortgage. The current system let him claim for the mortgage interest.
Let us now imagine that this MP inherits three hundred thousand pounds from his parents. This MP could choose to put this inherited three hundred thousand pounds into the financial system to gain income or capital gain and that would be fine.
However if the MP chose to pay off his mortgage with the three hundred thousand pounds he inherited he would not get this income from investing it and he would also loose the parliamentary interest allowance, making him substantially worse off.
So is it not reasonable if he chooses to pay off his mortgage with his inheritance that he should also still receive the allowance? (Even though he no longer has the mortgage.)
This argument has been totally overlooked by rabid (red top) press and the MPs concerned are condemned as crooks!
OK the profit on the sale of the second homes (and not just the tax on the profit!) should go to parliament and the system was rotten, but I think we should think more before we roll out the tumbrils and guillotines!
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fed up @ 331
if every blogger that wants an election now, starts and finishes with that statement perhaps the message might get through
that's going to get a little tedious
don't you think?
topping and tailing every blog with "Election Now" ... same thing starting and ending every single contribution
that's going to get a little tedious
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367 I have raised this very same point over the last couple of days.
My point however is that it merely exposes the fact that the rules are ridiculous. I believe that anyone who claims for interest on a Mortgage that he has repaid has not only broken the law but is clinically stupid. After all if they had kept the mortgage and re invested the surplus funds elsewhere, they would have been within the rules. Criminal or stupid, do we really want such people as MPs?
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Wanna know how your MP voted on th eBill for MPs expenses being exempted from the FoI Act?
Well...you can find out here...
http://www.cfoi.org.uk/maclean_votes.html
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Scapegoat? No, I don't think so. Placeman and stooge? Far more likely. The poor man was thrust into a role for which he was unequipped and which was above his level of competence; the Peter Principle at work. This of course meant that NuLabour could claim to be polishing its "working class" credentials while in fact forcing the appointment of a person who could be relied upon to let government chicanery develop with little or no resistance; the results of that have become all too apparent as time has passed.
While clearly not entirely free of suspicion in the expenses scandal, what seems to have sealed his fate was his manifestly intemperate outburst at Kate Hoey last week; it was both unnecessary and blatantly inappropriate. From that moment on there was little or no hope for his survival, and as someone else has commented it was becoming difficult not to feel some sympathy for the man; the refusal of the Metropolitan Police to investigate the leak must have been the last straw.
However, that would not justify his remaining in post; he had finally "blown it" and all that remained was the exact timing of his departure. With a better Speaker appointed we can only hope that the House of Commons can begin restoring some of the respect that it ought to command, but I fear it will be an uphill struggle. "Expensesgate" may have some way still to run, and as others have pointed out there is the not small matter of the impact of "second jobs" to consider.
The idea that second jobs (and it has to be recognised that these are something of a Tory speciality) help MPs develop a wider view of the world outside Westminster is superficially attractive, but having said that this wider view tends to be what can be seen from the boardroom, with absolutely no perspective from lower down the food chain - you know; the sort of place that most people have to spend their lives.
As the Chinese curse has it: "May you live in interesting times". I visit this curse upon our elected MPs.
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Dear Nick (Et all)
Both of the blogs from yesterday have now been removed, each time it is the same stock answer they give.
The Speaker is gone, long live the next party stoodge. You do get what you sow, so I think MP's got what they wanted in someone of MM's character.
Xxxx
ps
June
pps
60,383 and counting.
ppss
General Election or revolution, things can only get 'better'?
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Nick
I can only copy what I wrote yesterday:
"60. At 8:15pm on 18 May 2009, skynine wrote:
I would have thought that the Speaker will sleep on it tonight and by the morning realise that the position of Speaker of the House of Commons is larger than he is and take the only action available to him, to go before he does any more damage to Parliament."
So Speaker Martin reads your blog.
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if (ex) Speaker Martin is the prime/ only casualty then there may be some truth in Nick Robinson's comments about snobbery etc. What is required is that he is the first of many such heads to roll - and not all of them MPs either - though most of them will be. What was the fees office doing allowing such demonstrably false claims? The fear that this will happen again will only go away when the individual MPs are able to overcome their collective fear of the Party Whips. Elected dictatorship has eroded the capacity to hold the Govt to account. Quote from Guardian by MP " Vote 999 times for Govt and 6 times against it and you are branded a rebel' what!!!! Why have we allowed MPs to be so emasculated - can't they think and act for themselves? Pay them a sensible salary, give them decent support, reform the working hours, cut out all external jobs totalling beyond 15% of working time or pay, reform the house of lords, give us back our representatives and kill off the party poodles.
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I've heard of Distraction Burglaries before but Distraction Politics is a new one on me. How the Politicos have pulled it off I just don't know but they've certainly made a patsy of the speaker.
Was he the best speaker ever? I doubt it , nor the worst but with a dash of mock outrage and more than a smattering of class (and scottish) hatred he's stitched up like a kipper.
And how they/you protest so loudly now at the suggestion that class hate played a part. There are mANY ON HERE THAT baulk at any suggestion that perhaps an old etonian may be ever so slightly out of touch with the average persons problems retorting with "class envy" "chippy" accusations and yet the VERY SAME BLOGGERS are on here screaming for "GORBALS Mick" to be thrown to the Fox Hounds. Sickening hypocrits.
Surprised we haven't had "DEAN THE TORY" on to remind us that "The Masters" (his words) will soon be back in Power.
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Blears behaviour is unacceptable but she remains in the cabinet.
Does Brown engage his brain before he opens his mouth? He now has to sack her because he looks the fool yet again.
He is every bit as inept as Martin.
We need the date of the general election announced and now. Make in the autumn then we can scrutinized all of the miscreant MPs then elect a new Parliament.
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364- JohnConstable
Interesting point about the "English apathy" although predictably the "English Parliament" is playing well on these blogs.
I think to some extent it depends where you stand, politically and geographically. In my personal experience, the most enthusiastic wavers of St George's flag live in London or the Home Counties, are reasonably well heeled and have broadly conservative (small "c") views. The further you move away from this stereotype, the less the enthusiasm. Few developed countries are as orientated towards a single area as this one is towards London. If you live in the south east, an English Parliament is probably a great idea. If you live in the midlands or the west country it may not be so good. If you're from the North, it will probably be plain bad. As a northerner - albeit now living in the west country - I always felt I was an Englishman of Convenience - only included in the game when it suited the chaps in the golf club at Pinner but somehow not included when the free beer came round. It's the same perceived (rightly or wrongly) lack of inclusivness which so many Scots felt about the U.K.
Then there's the political angle. Some time ago I did a quick construction of a hypothetical English parliament based on the last General Election results. Someone may correct me here but as I recall, it reduced the Labour majority by around thirty-five. Certainly it seems indisputable that such an arrangement would favour the Conservative Party to some extent.
Only a personal view, I'll grant you but it would be unwise to assume that everyone born south of the Tweed and east of the Wye is an English Parliament enthusiast. I, for one, am not.
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If only the House had the energy to pursue the bankers with as much tenacity as they have shown in hunting down Martin. He may well be a poor Speaker compared to his immediate predecessors and have lacked leadership in the last week or so, but although many MPs have shown appalling greed in exploiting a lax system to the limit and beyond the actual financial cost to us is small beer alongside the effects of the catastrophic greed of the bankers. Once again our representatives are showing more concern over scandals in the Westminster village than the plight of the country. The Telegraph has thrown up a very good smokescreen to hide Sir Fred et al
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I was never really a fan of Michael Martin, but I respected him for what he was - a working class man who worked his way to one of the highest offices in the land, and for that both him and his family should be proud.
However, he is a SCAPEGOAT for the incompetence of other parties
It simply beggars belief that one man alone would have driven through, like a bull in a china shop, all the measures to block Freedom of information requests
I believe we should lobby Parliament to see whether FoI was ever discussed by the governing body - the House of Commons Commission - to see what Party representatives spoke up - did Harman? did May? did Bell etc etc? LETS FIND OUT! and expose the Hypocrites
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While all this talk of poor leadship of the House, what about the weak leadership of the country? Golem Brown calls a member of his cabinet's expenses claim "totally unacceptable" and yet he hasn't sacked Horrible Hazel, in spite of her openly ridiculing him just a weak or so ago.
Nothing displays Golem Brown's pathetic position as the continued presence of the red-haired horror in his government.
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hello saga.
tedious it maybe but it is no different from listening to gordon brown, with his set piece mantra's, 'those that broke the rules will be dealt with'(most things we're done withon the rules so means nothing) 'the system needs to change' (code for it was all the systems fault) 'i will do what it takes' 'getting on with the job' 'the global.....' it's like listening to a broken record, which so far has achieved nothing. at least calling for an election will achieve something, eventually...;o)
(your right though so i'll just end with it),
ELECTION NOW
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#343
"First off those saying the Speaker was not subjected to Class smears and snobbery have obviously never heard what many (mostly tory) mps called him behind his back, it not only smears his accent but also his place of birth and upbringing, were this to be said about anyone who was not white it would no doubt be considered racist!"
Few are saying that there hasn't been 'snobbery' against Speaker Martin, in the past I've defended Michael Martin against such claims here and elsewhere, what people have been saying is that it wasn't an issue of Class that eventually forced him out - it was simply that he was part of the (MPs expenses) problem and more importantly how he has handled the problem (and his role in it) within the last week or so.
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Like fingertapper (post 380) I am less than enthusiastic about an English Parliament; remember that several areas kicked John Prescott's ideas about regional assemblies well into touch. However, the idea of a Westminster parliament in which Scottish and Welsh constituency members cannot vote on matters that do not affect Scotland or Wales would get my support straight away. I am still at a loss to understand why DC rejects this as leading to the break - up of the Union; for my money leaving things as they are now will generate a head of steam amongst the English electorate that sooner or later will have to blow. Anything that gives us more politicians has to be a bad idea. Anything that gives us fewer seems a much better plan. A rigged system (thank you Mr Blair) that enables Scottish or Welsh MPs to tamper with English legislation while leaving their own constituencies unaffected has to be by definition bad.
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What is it with Brown?
He says he saved the banking system when he was presented with zero choice, bail them out or they will collapse.
Now he says he he was the first leader to identify the problem. In that case why didn't he deal with it instead of allowing his cabinet team to claim for what they want, and now he says he's going to get really tough with New Labour MP's that broke the rules, maybe, after an inquiry, sometime in the future, maybe. Yeah right Gordy, that's really decisive dithering that is.
A LEADER YOU ARE NOT, NOW POP OFF AND LET A LEADER TAKE OVER, OF ANY PARTY BUT GIVE US A LEADER PLEEEEEEEEZE!!!!
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Mr Robinson that is a bit harsh isn't it?
The speaker was used as a scapegoat, the media generally thought the public wanted somebody to go and really pushed this through.
The Speaker has served our country well, he is leaving of course following his resignation, but this is being done essentially in the Hope as he said to regain political unity in the House of Commons.
Enough said media, stop reporting on this and go and report on something more positive please?
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A so far unanswered question is whether the "extended" mortgage interest payment claims - after a mortgage had been fully repaid - were only made by Labour MPs. If not just another, but serious, possible fraud. If so a much more serious matter for Labour - and may not be un-connected with the Speaker's departure ?
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I'd like to see the full details on these "interim" restrictions but let's face it, £1,250 a month on interest payments allows a mortgage of £500,000 at the moment - and capital gains payable on the profit of any future sale, big deal. They shouldn't be allowed to profit.
We're still subsidising part time property developers then.
Nice time to buy at the moment, wish I could afford to.....
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#356
"I'm thinking how the editor of the Daily **** would love wipping up the pubics overabundance of righteous indignation when they discover that some mps get 2 wages."
That would be a very dangerous thing for many, especially tabloid or quality broadsheet, newspapers to do, how many of their readership, and no I don't mean via spouses, have two wages coming in (second, part-time jobs are more common than you obviously think, and we won't even start on the black economy...), then what about the journalists themselves, how many of them have two or more jobs in effect - quite a few TV journalists also write newspaper columns for example.
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Euro Elections soon.
Nick enough about Martin, how about a bit of reporting on Dave's new mates in Europe?
The Latvian Fatherland and Freedom Party (yep that really is Fatherland there)
and THe Polish Law and Justice Party, you know Nick, the ones who said Obamas election was "the end of civilisation of the white man"
Nice new friends you have there Dave!!
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Parliament has been famous for being something of an old world gentlemens club which is not unexpected given our absence of a constitution and the importance of convention in our unique system. If parliament is guilty of anything it is not reflecting the changed time and Michael Martin is unfairly being made a scapegoat. He was perfectly correct to criticise the M.P. who is also a Sky News commentator. There many issues hear that are not been addressed. It can be difficult to reconcile freedom of information and a considered process of legislation. There would be many issues far more serious and far more complex than M.P.s expenses that can not easily be summed up by a Sky News commentator quick comments or a news papers headlines. The main parties leaders taking a strong line on deselecting individual M.P.s is an weak evasion of some serious issues relating to how we are governed,
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#359
"security cost would be less than they are now as only having one or two building to guard instead of 650 places on the security check list in London"
We can't design into any 'solution' such a security issue that one terrorist attack could wipe out not only the government but the other parties too, yes an individual MP could be targeted at home as things are but that would be 1 MP and not all of them - the cost of security is not just a monetary figure. One salient thought, as the IRA used to say in the 1970s and '80s, "You (the British) need to be luck all of the time, we (the IRA) only need to be lucky once"...
"I am in favor of taking all and any gain out of MP's hands so we the people are the one who own the property that MP's use in London and make it that an MP is working for us and not build a nice little nest egg for him or her self"
Fine, so have the houses owned by the Government, even charge MPs fair rents, what we can't do is expect them to live in conditions that many of us, the electorate, would not want to live ourselves nor were we couldn't live as a family if we have one.
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Thank God he's gone. Who appointed him or approved of him?
But the whole episode of expenses leaves a bad taste in the mouth? All of a sudden all the hitherto sacriligeous thoughts bandied about on the Internet, seem to have a degree of plausibility about them. Thoughts like "the very clever ones go their perks esewhere" or "the massive immigration, mostly Moslem, was funded on Arab oil money or "action was taken to stop Dutch MP (who happens to be the key man in the currently largest party in The NetherlandS) because one party has great hopes of "the Pakistani postal block vote" and the fact that the other parties do not raise the issue "is further evidence of the LAB-LIB-CON"
At this moment saying "sorry" leaves us with a similar feeling as appearing on Oprah Winfey's chat programme.
There is no doubt that a vote for the three main parties in the Euro elections is the worst thing we could do. But what to do afterwards? I think we should abandon the three parties.
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YOUR TIME'S UP ....
What hypocrisy from Brown! In his statement following the demise of Martin, he talks as if the corruption now discovered has come as a total surprise and shock to him. Cameron and Clegg also feign astonishment. Hilarious!
Brown waffles pompously about the need to clean up politics and reform Parliament. The cheek of the man! Brown is at the very centre of the corrupt regime which has been used to bribe and manipulate MPs as an extra layer of control on top of the equally corrupt system of appointment patronage.
It is clear that those MPs now shown to have committed large-scale, high-value fraud are not maverick rogues but participants in an even larger scale criminal conspiracy to rob the taxpayer.
"It was under the rules," they squeal. While that will not be a defence in the criminal prosecutions to come, it is an undestandable cry. They were encouraged by the party leaderships who have used such largesse to manipulate their lobby fodder. Even worse, high offices of state were employed to run the fraud.
The conspiracy has been directed by Brown and his predecessor Blair, under whose auspices the practices were refined - along with the honours-for-cash racket of which we had a brief glimpse before the cover-up and failure of the police investigation.
It has been condoned and exploited by the leaders of the two other main parties who are equally guilty. Surprised, are they? Shocked? Morally outraged? M'lud, I respectfully put it to you that these emotions are strangers to the leaders of our political parties. They would not be recognised in even the most intimate embrace by men whose cerebral springs well from the poisonous caverns of political ambition and self-love.
And they expect us to believe them when they tell us that they will now reform Parliament. Well, such optimism and blindness to facts - and sheer determination to carry on regardless - may have its admirers. Few will be found in the electorate.
An early election is desired by the vast majority. Delay will merely reinforce the voter's determination to get rid of all of them.
Oh, what a cull awaits them. Oh, the tears and gnashing of teeth to come.
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Just as Martin wasn't cut out to be a Speaker so Gordon Brown was never cut out to be a Prime Minister. Their fates seem to be be running an uncannily similar path.
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cannot believe how Catch The Wind is running around and trying to use the MP's expenses issue to trigger an early Election - he knew about it for years and, not only that, he personally exploited the second homes allowance to just about the maximum possible! - has the man no shame?
if we did have an Election, and we put CTW into number ten with a big majority, we would be off our collective rocker, don't you think?
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What a ridiculous spectacle, the whole thing. Martin is absolutely a scapegoat. We've witnessed a race to the bottom ever since this story broke - the media competing to heap more vitriol on MPs and Parliament and the Party leaders thinking they need to follow suit.
This is actually simple - the allowance system was too lax. OK, we get it. It has been like that for years and years. Allowances are regarded as a de facto supplement to MPs salaries. What was required here was action agains the worst abuses (under way), new rules and enforcement (also likey to be introduced soon.
But all this phoney and exaggerated outrage is completely out of proportion to the situation. Anyone who has any knowledge of other Parliaments will know that we have no corruption in our system - MPs are generally hard-working and try to do their best. They do not take cash to influence decisions.
Cameron's call for an election should be seen for what it is - political opportunism. We should all calm down, take a valium and get back to the really important stuff.
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Gordon Brown critized the House of Commons as being too much like a "19th Century Gentlemans Club"
I wish that were so. Gentlemen used to honour their word, their word was their bond. Many a duel to the death has been fought by Gentleman on their word of honour. Brown might well learn that values and morals were far higher hundreds of years ago, than today. Our language has been debased and "Spin" operates at every level of these politicians minds. Brown can never be cured, only removed. First get rid of the "Bad Apples" in Parliament, then allow the Authorities to put a few of the serious fraudsters in jail, then give us a General Election.
Brown does not "get it" that no one trusts him nor considers him a credible Leader for the next week, never mind the next year.
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#369. oldreactionary wrote:
"
#367 I have raised this very same point over the last couple of days.
My point however is that it merely exposes the fact that the rules are ridiculous!
"
Too true, but I also contend that any reimbursement of mortgage interest as proposed is wrong and ridiculous even when it is limited to 1250 a month as these absurdities will bring the house into disrepute yet again. By the way so is the limiting a mortgage interest reimbursement to a single home for married MPs. This discourages marriage and encourages divorce as MPs would then be 15000 a year better of! Clearly a nonsense on many levels.
So no mortgage interest should be paid to any MP as it is impossible to construct a system that will be seen as fair and reasonable.
I favour a bunk house solution. Perhaps, get rid of half of the MPs and use every alternate office so vacated at Westminster as a bedroom. Or perhaps get rid of a third of them and make them share a bunk in every third office so free up! (The latter is quite realistic if one threw out all Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs except when matters of national importance were to be debated and then a video link system could be set up between all four chambers - get real guys and use 21 century technology - and also adopt electronic voting what is all this time wasting voting by walking through lobbies how ridiculous!)
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It is about time that we drop pejorative and prejudiced sayings such as "old-style Spanish practices" - there are many ways of indicating that the practices are irregular without being prejudiced against anything Spanish. Let us show a little more imagination in our use of language. In any case, it is such an old fashioned term that younger readers cannot understand it, let alone condone it.
This comes from a Spaniard of course!
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#393
"Whilst the moderators mighht not agree with my suggestions of Boris Johnson, Julian Clary and Graham Norton (in that order), surely it is my right to make the proposal?
How is this any more ridiculous than Anne Widdecombe?"
One is a sitting MP, thus eligible, the others are not - simple really...
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Cameron states that Martin lost the confidence of the house and therefore had to go. The house has however lost the confidence of the public. Surely the MPs must follow suit.
One of the critism of Martin was that he lacked leadership. He has now show leadership by resigning, surely the MPs must follow suit.
An election is not enough.
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"Boilerplated wrote:
then what about the journalists themselves, how many of them have two or more jobs in effect - quite a few TV journalists also write newspaper columns for example."
I agree, and it seems most TV panels seems to have an editor of one of the major papers as a member.
I would expect that most of the MPs who have second jobs are actually on the board of companies and spend very little time actually doing the job.
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fingertapper @ 380 and Radiowonk @ 387
There seems to be a fairly common assumption that an English Parliament would lead to more bureaucracy/politicians/cost.
Not necessarily so.
If we English shook off our apathy and took control of our political future and constituted an English Parliament at Westminster then we would simply have no further need for the 'British' political component.
The Scots and the Welsh would have full independence along with the English, although almost certainly still within the context of the EU and Commonwealth.
The EU is keen on regional assemblies for overarching political reasons but the English cannot be expected to embrace these mechanisms when they don't even have their own Parliament.
The country is too London-centric and I think that an independent English Parliament would contain politicians who would try to devolve power out into the English regions.
I accept the point that an independent England would initially result in a political weighting in favour of the Conservatives but I think that once the English got a taste of real democracy (as the Scots have since the SNP gained ascendancy in Scotland and to a lesser extend the Welsh likewise) then other political groupings such as the Greens and the English Democrats would grow in influence.
We English simply cannot carry on with this political entity called 'Britain'.
It made perfect sense once but those days are almost over.
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410 Boils
Thankyou for doing me the honour of taking my suggestion seriously. I can see how sometimes it is difficult in blogs to see when a post is 'tongue in cheek'. I don't really think Graham Norton is a strong candidate for the post of Speaker, hence I was implying that Anne Widdicombe might not be ideal in the role through a kind of semi-humorous comparison. Simple really.
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As ever, Brown plays politics: calling Hazel Blears behaviour "unacceptable", not because it is (and it is) but because it's an easy way to neutralise a Leadership rival.
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Perhaps we got the parliament we deserve.
There are fewer people voting than before, fewer taking an interest in politics - let alone getting involved, instead we leave politics to 'career' politicians who still cannot sense the anger around them. Where too were the investigative journalists, or were they too bewitched by the gossip and celebrity glamour of Westminster and the city?
I hope all of the people bitching for change turn out to vote, or better still to challenge their would be representatives at public meetings.
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18th CENTURY MEASURES?
So the Speakers change of heart came no less than 24 HOURS after his BRAVE, but predictable words concerning his ROLE (IF ANY?) and future as a Speaker. His "handling of the MPs expense issue" made him the first Commons Speaker to be forced out of office for ..3OO YEARS.
WHAT IS GOING ON? The MPs claims issue on this scale is UNPRECEDENTED.
WHAT SHOULD OR COULD HE HAVE DONE APART FROM ALLOWING A LITTLE TIME TO CONSULT INDEPENDENT EXPERTS TO ADVISE (as he tried to do)? The issue had become far too complicated and widespread for ANY Speaker to be solved overnight. The Elections, however, may be with us soon,so MPs careers are at stake, meaning an urgent divertion was vital
to gain more time to find their own united answers rather than leaving it to Mr. Speaker. Perhaps a politically more amiable one to guide us through the issues over many months of recesses and Party Conferences..when MPs claims might seem well into the past. According, however, to a small local search, Mr. Speakers popularity is WELL AHEAD of the MPs. Tax payers find it easier to identify themselves with him rather than "the others who can look after themselves" Many people may be forgiven to feel very unhappy apparantly about having financially supported life styles out of reach to ordinairy people and the one man they could identify with having been forced out of office like..3OO years ago. It might have been more sensible to trust this decent man, knowing his way around Westminster for very many years to chair some indepenndent experts trying to find early answers that might not only have suited most MPs, but that might also have given at least a little time for a Speaker of our age to prove that he should have been given the opportunity to prove himself.
It is unfair and unwise to do anything else.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
408 john from
...''I favour a bunk house solution''.... (for MPs accomodation)
I favour the prison ship refit option myself. No security problem, comes with a moat called the Thames, options for floating voters. Can move about the regions to make them feel in touch with the public. One spare at the moment. No dry rot problem. Could call it SS Main Residence, if two needed second one could be SS Secondary Residence. I see somebody has suggested MP stands for More Please so it could always be called the SS More Please. Sadly not room for a gentlemans club.
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#343 "First off those saying the Speaker was not subjected to Class smears and snobbery ... etc"
All three previous Labour speakers, Betty Boothroyd, George Thomas and Horace Hing had equally humble backgrounds. But they did their homework, understood the job, and CARED about the tradition they were inheriting, especially that of not being close to the executive power.
I'm not a snob - my grandad was a steel worker and a shop steward in the 1926 strike. But my family believed in education and self improvement - partly so that NO-ONE could find an excuse to look down upon us. I know plenty of people who are intelligent and articulate, but not afraid to get their hands dirty.
In a way, going into politics is a different way to get your hands dirty. But if you do it, you must be up to the job - regardless of background. Yes - it is easier for some than for others - For example, poor old Douglas Hogg has never been up to the job - I doubt he's have made it to Parliament without his pedigree. It must be a terrible thing to be expected to follow the family tradition when you don't have the aptitude. Never mind - he's going too: few tears will be shed. What has happened today is the beginning of a cleansing of the stables.
I would like an election DATE announced now - say October 1st. This will give all parties the time to deselect the troughers and decide what their policies are. Then we can have a proper debate, a proper choice, and move forward.
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Cassandra 402
"They would not be recognised in even the most intimate embrace by men whose cerebral springs well from the poisonous caverns of political ambition and self-love."
This is poetry! What a welcome change from the usual inelegant ranting. I think I love you.
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The PM tells us that the behaviour of Hazel Blears was completely unacceptable but that she hadn't broken the rules or the law.
She continues to sit in the Cabinet. Thus we find that completely unacceptable behaviour is acceptable and no bar to Cabinet membership. And she is not the only one.
Moral compass ? More like moral maze.
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~411 ajoview
Agreed - an election is not enough - we need a completely new way of government.
I don't agree with Brown's new proposals - talk about 'I'll handle this' What I want is complete removal of the public purse from the hands of all MP's. No more expenses for anything - none whatsoever. A salary that is in keeping with performance and that is all.
I don't expect my employer to stump up for the mortgage interest on my 'second home' whichever one I choose to nominate - or my food and housewares
The trouble is that all MP's including Brown have lost sight of whose money it is - they were such a distance from it that they thought it was theirs by right.
Not anymore, it's over
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It can simply NOT BE RIGHT after what has happened over the past 2 weeks that this current sitting Parliament can ever begin or be trusted to review ways in which to put their OWN House in Order having been the SAME M.P. Members that were at fault in the First - Place, for we NEED an immediate GENERAL ELECTION, NOW so that we ALL the Voters can elect a NEW group of M.P.s' to replace the current incumbents, and then allow these "NEW" M.P.s' Members in a "NEW" Era in Parliament to Set the way foreward.
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I don't know if I work, meet and live with an unrepresentative group of people, but those I have discussed recent events with, all seem to be thinking along the same lines. Our ages range from teenage, twenties, thirties, forties, fifties and sixties. We all seem to think that Douglas Carswell initiated a witch hunt against the speaker, which a handful of other MPs joined, and which got out of hand to force a resignation.
We are all anticipating a full and clear declaration of MPs expenses, within the next few weeks, so that we can judge for ourselves, without the media selecting for us, which MPs have been milking the system and which have just taken what they need to represent their constituencies.
We all think the politicians and the media are trying to make political capital out of the situation and we all feel we are being treated as if we are stupid and won't notice.
We would like a clear indication of who was responsible for setting up an expenses and allowances system which could be so open to abuse, and that person or institution should be held accountable for it.
We would like everything to be clear and in the open before any decisions are made as to the date of the next election, so we have time to judge the facts for ourselves. We do not like being told what to think without being given to full story by media and politicians.
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" He failed to lead" ? He led to much!would have been more appropriate!
his principles were at all times to protect parliament and the MP's, it's that integrity and stance that defines the bravest!.
The whole compromise on this sorry mess will be an upgrade of MP's pay!
there's no doubt about that, MP's must be able to function,moderately between to area's.
Why the puplic shot down GB's proposal's weeks and months ago, is nothing more than cheap political gerrymandering.
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In a bygone age, GB would have gone by now and the fact that he still presides as PM, although like the Speaker he does not lead, is the legacy of this New Labour government who will go down as the worst government in living memory.
Having been out of office for so long, they manipulated the system to their own advantage once they gained office and this has been to the detriment of the British people.
First they silenced the media and then sought to control the output with thuggery that even Beria would have been proud of. Only now with the demise of Campbell, Whelan, Draper and McBride are the media beginning to find their voice once again.....although some who shall remain nameless are finding this hard to fathom.
Second New Labour do not debate. All new policies are dripped and leaked and given to co-operative hacks who will print them verbatim without opinion for fear of reprisals. GB leaked the Speaker's resignation today; indeed Nick was able to say with some certainty that Martin would be going.
Then we have GB saying that he had met with party leaders who unanimously accepted his proposals which he had wanted to introduce since he was a baby; this later to proved to be false.
But my point here is that this crisis is not one where GB has to show leadership by introducing change which he claims he thought of first (this is just pathetic); no there should be debate in the chamber.
If he feels (like I do) that there are too many tainted MPs in the Chamber to debate change, then he needs to clear them out and the only way to do this is to have a GE.
Thirdly, the Upper House is an absolute disgrace. Blair began the dismantling and then horror of horrors did not know what to replace it with.
As an aside, before our hardened Republicans talk about removing the Monarchy, please have a replacement in mind because you will reap what you sow. You might get a Cherie or a Johnny Prescott in charge at Buck House. You may think this is acceptable but as the French found to their cost, the expense actually increased when one of the snout troughers got in to be top dog.
It is time to have a properly elected Upper House like the Senate in the US and please, the executive must not choose the candidates.
The Select Committees are a complete waste of space and are stuffed full of New Labour apologists to the extent that no one takes responsibility, the blame or accountability unless it's good news. Examples of this are McFall's poodles where the bankers take nearly all the blame whilst the government and the regulator get off scot free.
Fouthly, there are too many stooges at the top of the establishment now who have all benefited and been rewarded by playing the New Labour game. Political parties should not dosh out patronage. Example? Is Speaker going to the Upper House as a reward for failure. He would be in good company.
Fifthly, there have been several examples of MPs who were found wanting and should have been sacked and never allowed back. We all know who they are; there's the mortgage loan chap, the money for UK settlement chap among the several who simply should not be MPs or a Lord today.
Sixthly, the politicisation of the Civil Service, the Judiciary, the Police Force and the 'independent' carefully selected to adjudicate narrow definitions of evidence (the two Iraq War enquiries).
The last twelve years have set our political system back many years and it is time to move on hopefully without New Labour. All Socialists, please understand that your party of tomorrow are the Lib Dems; it is not New Labour who stopped serving the working man a long time ago. Blair understood this even if Brown did not want to (and nor did my many socialist f