Taking the political mood
THE TRAIN TO MANCHESTER: News reaches me en route to Old Trafford of the government's defeat over the Gurkhas.
It is proof, if any were needed, that away from the economy the prime minister is consistently misjudging issues.
His handling of MPs' expenses and the Gurkhas - issues that are far from being the major questions of our age but which generate huge public emotion - suggest if nothing else that he is being badly advised.
Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson are both shrewd political strategists but are simply too busy to give day-to-day tactical advice.
Damian McBride was valuable to the PM before his ignominious exit from Downing Street. However, taking the political mood on this sort of issue was not his strength.
Alastair Campbell is now a regular visitor to No 10 but, undeniably talented though he is, Gordon Brown needs full-time not part-time advice.
It won't be long, I predict, before Labour MPs demand that "someone gets a grip". The question is who?
Incidentally, today's vote is a significant victory for Nick Clegg who, as his predecessor Paddy Ashdown did many years ago with the case of passports for the Hong Kong Chinese, found his voice speaking up for Britain's moral obligations.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~23~RS~)
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The most popular petition on the number10 website is currently the one calling for Gordon Brown's resignation.
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/please-go/
My only fear is that if Gordon Brown was forced to resign Labour might actually stand a chance in the next election; just think what damage they could do with another five years in charge...
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Bye Bye Gordon , good luck in your future endeavours
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more proof that he has lost it.......he really appears to think he is always right..... on pmq's he said we couldnt afford the supposed £1.5 billion.....i bet if it was a Gurkha bank he would have found the money...!
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He's lost the plot. He must go. Sign the petition at http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/please-go/
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Now is the time for Mandelson to to step to the plate. A 'night watchman' Prime Minister (and first sitting member of the upper house since Lord Salisbury in the early 1900's).
It gives Labour time to lose the election with some honour (and without the liability of Brown)and the real contenders the opportunity to show their hands.
Must pour myself another Stella ..........
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Why make an exception of the economy?
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'Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson are both shrewd political strategists but are simply too busy to give day-to-day tactical advice.'
Nick. Are you honestly trying to tell us that these two could be responsible for Gordon Brownn's misjudgements. He has always been his own man. He is arrogant and has always been a poor listener. Who's to say that they didn't advise him to follow this course anyway? Before the vote came in I had the feeling that because of The PM's obstinate stance he would lose out whichever way the vote went.
His authority is now smashed to pieces and the end will be brought forward that much quicker in my opinion.
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Not only does GB consistently misjudging issues, but he appears not to learn from his mistakes. This I find a much more worrying factor. Surely the measure of intelligence of an living creature is its ability to learn from its errors.
Time to go Gordon, I'm afraid. We have lost confidence in you.
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"Alastair Campbell is now a regular visitor to No 10 but, undeniably talented though he is, Gordon Brown needs full-time not part-time advice."
===
Gordon Brown is a grown man, and he is Prime Minister. That his moral compass has failed him on these two issues, and that he might need to take advice, says everything.
He should know what is "The Right Thing To Do."
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Nick,
Your words do not go far enough. Gordon Brown is the most dire, disastrous and inept Prime Minister we have ever, ever had.
What is worse, is that he is also devious, dishonest and a bully.
I for one am not surprised that nearly 30,000 members of the public have put their names against the petition on the Downing Street web site demanding that Gordon Brown resigns.
Labour are an embarrassment to the UK.
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"It is proof, if any were needed, that away from the economy the Prime Minister is consistently misjudging issues."
And a £606 billion PSBR, the biggest bust since the 30's and une,ployment rocketting suggests he's judging the economy well?
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Nick
What do you mean, "Away from the economy"? He's handled the economy appallingly - remember "no more boom and bust", "not just a light but a limited touch", 10p tax band, 50p top rate, the list is almost endless...
Truly a Ceausescu moment!
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Brown has simply lost the plot. I defy anyone watching the videos below to deny that simple fact.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anX2rILSh3M&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS37nnFYzZ0&feature=related
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"It is proof, if any were needed, that away from the economy the prime minister is consistently misjudging issues."
===
Nick, I think you will find that in matters of the economy as ell, the Prime Minister is misjudging issues.
No comment from you on the Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk's lecture on fiscal management to Brown?
No comment from you that the petition urging Brown to resign, on the Prime Minister's own website, is now the most popular petition? 29,455 signatories, only 24,278 voted for him in 2005. The man has no mandate, he should resign.
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A rather nice little victory for common sense, however no doubt many jumped on the band wagon just to punch the government on the nose. Cynical I may be but realistic would be better. Here's to the Gurkhas they offer to lay down their life for this country and are refused residency while other spongers from far off fields come here, get benefits and then try to blow us up! Something a bit wrong with this place.
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Nick,
are you applying for the job of 'GB's special advisor' ? You should stand a good chance, however you are probably of more help to him in your current position. But good luck anyway.
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"that away from the economy the prime minister is consistently misjudging issues." Away from the economy? Nick, Have you seen the news recently?
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Yup, he'd do better to keep his mouth shut. Watching Dispatches we heard him praise the creativity and drive of the finance industry, setting London as a world-class financial centre.....Not what we heard recently.
What's WRONG with the guy?
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Interesting. I have a feeling, despite their problems, that the LibDems might have an important role to play in moderating the next election. Obviously everyone's fed up with Brown. But there are a lot of people out there - quiet people usually - who won't forgive Labour for dragging us into Iraq and who are very unhappy about poisoning a generation to support insolvent banks.
They'll never vote for Cameron's new/old Tories, who won't say which front line services they'll cut to increase the debt repayments before the election and who don't fancy an old age of waiting lists and poor health so that the a few rich people pay less tax.
Question is - can they be motivated enough to actually vote LibDem? Maybe the shock of the racist parties pulling off a few near results in the summer Euro elections will show them what happens when you don't vote?
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I no longer think it's a lack of advice It's a stubborn man who won't take it. Unless it's what he wants to hear.
Is he still trying to convince himself that he's untouchable ot is he now totally self destructive.
Very worrying signs from a man who would cling to power until the bitter end. More worrying for those who are watching it.
Nice to see cross party support for the gherkas. Commonsense does prevail But not from the man in Number 10.
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Did I detect a note of disdain in your PMQs piece when David Cameron jumped with such alacrity on Nick Clegg's bandwagon. He really showed himself to be what he is, a slick, opportunistic PR salesman, when he tried to grandstand and take the plaudits for something he had never once mentioned before today. Is he and those who support the case for the Ghurkas aware that until the 1997 Labour government, the Ghurkas did not have the right to British residence. What will happen when the South Africans, the Sarawak Rangers from Borneo, the Fijian Infantrymen, the Indians, the Sikhs and anybody else or their descendants who can prove their forefathers fought for Britain in the then British Empire, wishes to settle in the UK with their families. Are we going to welcome them with open arms as well?
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Nick, I'm with Yorkbar at 6, but nice try on slipping the economic competence line by us but we know your games.
Your second para is missing the word "even" which rather changes its meaning to something closer to the mark:
"It is proof, if any were needed, that even away from the economy (where of course his incompetence is a matter of public record and expectation - ed) the prime minister is consistently misjudging issues."
I agree that our Leader is indeed in need of some quality help, and I suggest he gets it as part of his recuperation after he has removed himself quickly from harm's way - his and ours - permanently.
Enjoy the football.
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'It is proof, if any were needed, that away from the economy the prime minister is consistently misjudging issues.'
The implication is that Gordon Brown is consistently judging issues well on the economy. He presided over a decade of reckless spending and borrowing and is now failing to clean up his own mess. Closing the stable door after the horse has bolted doesn't absolve him from partial blame in my book.
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Nick,
This is not off-topic, although it is yet another indictment on one of the worst prime ministers ever to sit in the House of Commons. I hope you will not suddenly close this board when it becomes obvious that the majority of bloggers share this view. The Ghurkas, I believe, have been shrugged aside, since they are mainly Hindus or of the Bahai faith. No political clout there, and no fears of violent reactions if they don't get what they want. Terrorists fleeing justice from their homelands are made welcome here, homes, benefits, whatever they need, but brave veterans are treated in a cavalier manner by mean-minded little men and women. No, Nick, I don't think Brown has misjudged things, it is just the way his 'brain' works.
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Tony Blair promised that Gordon Brown would prove to be a "big clunking fist" ... he was partially right. He is a clunking Prime Minister who is so out of touch with the electorate and what we want that it is almost frightening. If challenged I can almost guarantee that he will make the standard comment that he is "getting on with the job". No doubt Ms Blears will step up and tell the Labour faithful to "get a grip". If Labour want to even scrape through with a hung parliament at the next election they need to get rid of Gordon Brown - now.
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Many contributors keep referring to the online petition as if it is going to make a difference. It will not be taken seriously - when last I looked, Adolf Hitler had signed it!
Unfortunately, we will have to rely on a brave soul within the Labour Party (Do they exist?) to risk a photocopier being thrown at them and tell Gordon that his time is up. Otherwise, we will have to wait until June next year to oust him.
The only good thing that will come about if we have to wait, will be the likelihood of a much bigger implosion of the Labour vote and the harder it will be for them to get back into Government.
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Is Gordon Brown becoming a laughing stock? And will Youtube be responsible for finishing him off? More here:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2009/04/laughter_and_forgetting.cfm
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How Brown could use finances as an excuse to further kick the Gurkhas in
the teeth after he has shovelled it around with wild abandon when it suits
him,shows once again how dishonourable he is.This vote was a victory for
decency and justice,qualities Brown wouldnt recognise.
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In PMQs today there was no sign of him accepting that he had made a misjudgement on this issue rather an assertion that Labour had done more for The Ghurkas than anyone else. The result of the vote must have shocked him to the core! Bring on tomorrow's vote on MPs expenses, yet another issue on which he is standing on shaky ground due to his silly you tube pronouncement.
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"Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson are both shrewd political strategists but are simply too busy to give day-to-day tactical advice."
"Alastair Campbell is now a regular visitor to No 10 but, undeniably talented though he is, Gordon Brown needs full-time not part-time advice."
Nick
This is real apologist stuff.. why not mention the rest of the cabinet while you're at it?
As others here have said, Brown should have enough experience and insight to have made the right call on these issues. Some of his backbenchers appear to have more common sense. Does he need advisers to tell him when to wipe his nose?
BTW Well done Nick Clegg & the LDs.
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Congratulations to Nick Clegg
I ponder that you don't make any comment about the requirement for Brown to reconsider his policies.
Have you seen the video of Brown leaving the chamber after PMQ's despite the speaker calling "statement from the Prime Minister"...Lucky Ed Balls was there to stop him escaping the chamber and point him back at the despatch box
There is even some off message stuff appearing on LabourHome, maybe they realise they need to make a change to stop oblivion
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My feeling is that typical though this error was of New Labour, it was typical of New Labour as nurtured by Tony Blair, clumsy misreading of public opinion and all. Mr Brown picked up that particular ball and blundered on with it. What is remarkable and gratifying is that finally this blundering has been slapped down. Labour must now attend to national expectations rather more closely, though it is doubtful on past form that they will manage it. It would take a rather courageous reshuffle of people and policies. But the fact that Mr Cameron is too opportunistic to promise such a thing in even the medium term is not encouraging. It could be that only the no-chance Liberals have acquired this knack. Election day may too close for such opposition to matter.
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21. At 6:17pm on 29 Apr 2009, valdan70 wrote:
Did I detect a note of disdain in your PMQs piece when David Cameron jumped with such alacrity on Nick Clegg's bandwagon. He really showed himself to be what he is, a slick, opportunistic PR salesman, when he tried to grandstand and take the plaudits for something he had never once mentioned before today. Is he and those who support the case for the Ghurkas aware that until the 1997 Labour government, the Ghurkas did not have the right to British residence.
===
Please try to keep up. Before 1997 it was not an issue as the Gurkhas were able to settle in British controlled Hong Kong. After the 1997 hand over to the Chinese, this was no longer an option, and their Training Depot Head Quarters were moved to the UK, so settlement in the UK was the obvious option then, as Hong Kong was no longer available.
"Training Depot Brigade of Gurkhas TDBG was once again relocated to Malaya Lines in the New Territories, Hong Kong in 1971. At the TDBG in Hong Kong, recruits were taught basic English alongside military subjects such as field craft, drill, weapon-handling etc. More importantly, being in a modern city like Hong Kong, these young recruits from the hills of Nepal were given the opportunity to experience life in a different culture and environment. Such experience would be crucial for their future deployments in different corners of the world.
Due to Hong Kong's handover from the UK to China, the TDBG was closed down in December 1994. However, it was reconstituted immediately as the Gurkha Training Wing (GTW) at Queen Elizabeth Barracks at Church Crookham, Hampshire in the UK."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigade_of_Gurkhas
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I wonder how many of Brown's lobby fodder will have the courage to vote against the party line tomorrow when there is a danger of their noses being pulled out of the Westminster trough. Not many I think. However, now they've gone against him once, it might become easier to stick the odd head above the parapet, though it will take more than a few defeats to force this immoral bunch to go to the country. Brown himself has now lost all authority in the house, and his reputation abroad is fast unravelling, so this may look like an opportune time for the pretenders to his throne to make a move, though I doubt if any of them have the courage to try.
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Nick:
It is proof, if any were needed, that away from the economy the prime minister is consistently misjudging issues.
Yes, that is very much proof that Gordon Brown, chances of winning in the next general election; he and the Labour Party will certainly lose the election..
I am not advocating for any political party...And/or advertising an
election date in the United Kingdom...
~Dennis Junior~
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valdan @ 21 wrote:
'What will happen when the South Africans, the Sarawak Rangers from Borneo, the Fijian Infantrymen, the Indians, the Sikhs and anybody else or their descendants who can prove their forefathers fought for Britain in the then British Empire, wishes to settle in the UK with their families. Are we going to welcome them with open arms as well?'
You mean like we do the thousands of illegal immigrants from places like Sangatte who squeeze onto our overpopulated country and benefit so well from our generous welfare programs?
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Get Ms Flanders to do Mr Robinsons job - I AM TOTALLY fED UP WITH PRO LABOUR BIAS.
As for the Clown and his Govt - morally and financially bankrupt like our once great naton.
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"...away from the economy the prime minister is consistently misjudging issues."
Oh dear.
Oh dear, oh dear.
Did you leave the top off the liquid paper pot when you typed that?
Are we to assume that you believe the PM to be consistently NOT misjudging issues on the economy? Do you honestly, genuinely actually believe that?
GB cuts a very haunted figure of late. Problem is that even if he tried to rattle his spectral chains, he'd trip over them.
Just how much punishment can the Labour Party take as he bumbles from one shambles of an episode to another?
I left work having checked BBC News and everything seemed fine. I only popped to the supermarket on the way home and then this.
You can't be trusted for five minutes, can you Gordon, without goofing up and then walking off, seemingly oblivious to the world around you? Even if it is in the midst of one of your increasingly rare parliamentary appearances.
I'm hoping that by the time I've finished typing this, I can check back on BBC news and discover that he's locked himself out of Number 10 and is trying to get in by shinning up the drain-pipe. Or maybe he will have tried to pull a wheelie on his BMX to impress his few back-bench mates, only to have knocked his front teeth out on the handlebar.
4th June gets ever closer oh Labour ones.
Seriously, how do you think you're going to do?
Annihilation or just mere carnage?
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The Gurkhas vote is of course important and Messrs Clegg and Cameron should be congratulated for putting other differences aside and joining in support of this brave and dignified people who have given so much to Britain. Those Labour MPs who voted with the opposition are also to be congratulated for having the courage to oppose an inequitable decision. Lets hope that they get the habit!
Not to be congratulated was the MP ( I did not get his name) who said on 5Live that by abstaining he was supporting the Gurkhas. He is more typical of the majority of the Labour parliamentary party who do not have the nerve to upset Gordon. The ghost of McBride no doubt.
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Nick
It is the economy, stupid.
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"AWAY FROM THE ECONOMY THE PRIME MINISTER IS CONSISTENTLY MISJUDGING THE ISSUES", so he hasn't made any misjudgements on the economy then..Hmm !!
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31. At 6:34pm on 29 Apr 2009, StrongholdBarricades wrote:
Congratulations to Nick Clegg
I ponder that you don't make any comment about the requirement for Brown to reconsider his policies.
Have you seen the video of Brown leaving the chamber after PMQ's despite the speaker calling "statement from the Prime Minister"...Lucky Ed Balls was there to stop him escaping the chamber and point him back at the despatch box
===
Maybe he had come to the realisation that he is not the "Prime" minister any more. In office but not in power!
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Nick, just because Brown lost the Commons vote does not necessarily mean that he misjudged the issue, or was wrong in his view. It was toe-curling to see the Conservative MPs claiming the moral high ground on an issue that when in power they did precisely zilch about, but the most telling contributions that I heard were those from former Defence Secretaries saying that the strong legal advice they had received while in office was that if the LibDem proposal was accepted there would be a flood of claims from other former Commonwealth soldiers who had fought for the UK also claiming right of residence here. They would have essentially the same claim as the Gurkhas ("if a soldier has been willing to put his life on the line for this country, there is a moral obligation to let him live here"), and the courts would be almost certain to uphold any claim of discrimination. I had also not realised the potentially ruinous effect on the economy of Nepal if former Gurkhas came to the UK, rather than receiving their pensions in Nepal.
It would be interesting to see how any future Tory government would deal with that. Of course, the LibDems don't have to think about ever having to face the consequences of their grandstanding.
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I think everyone should now attach their names to this petition.
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/please-go/
It is the most popular petition currently active on the number10 Website. In light of Brown's crushing defeat on the moral issue of disallowing brave, honourable and loyal soldiers who fought and risked their lives for this country from living IN this country. HE MUST RESIGN.
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The Gurkhas are honorable people who have shown that they are willing to stand up for the freedoms and traditions of this country. Which is more than you can say for members of Gordon Brown's shambolic government, who have no shame and no honour,
MPs award themselves huge salaries and expenses for destroying this country, while ignoring those who have made genuine sacrifices. This government does not know the meaning of sacrifice. This country needs Gurkhas, not shirkers.
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Things must be really bad with Stephen Pound voting against the government. Brown has no one left to come out and defend him on the telly now. I think Brown may as well give up and retire to a croft in the northern isles and do us all a favour. It is quite clear now that Brown`s judgement is totally flawed. Its one thing after another. I think what happens tomorrrow over the MP expenses debacle may well signal the beginnig of the end for him.
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'.. away from the economy the prime minister is consistently misjudging issues.'
No, please, let us get him back to where he has, is and will do his best work. Clearly.
And they say Aunty doesn't know how to crank out great comedy any more.
Not quite sure who the joke is on, mind.
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"Incidentally, today's vote is a significant victory for Nick Clegg"
I do hope so, I would rather he became leader of the opposition than any of the labour mob. Tories to win, Lib-Dems second labour third or fourth.
I would prefer to see labour utterly and totally wiped out and Parliament filled with independents. however there are far too many people who would vote for any version of the labour party, no matter who lead them, even if they had a hobby of garrotting little fluffy bunnies on prime-time TV.
Some people are just utterly brain-dead that way. They think that they are helping the poor and the working class by voting labour in spite of mountains of direct and painful evidence to the contrary, filling dole offices and alcoholic's clinics the length and breadth of the land.
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Obviously, we can't expect Brown to be grateful to Joanna Lumley for her magnificent campaign.
But hopefully, after a change of Government in the near future, her efforts will be duly recognised for the great service she has done, not just to the Gurkhas, but also in helping to restore the honour of this country.
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@21
All serving members of the Commonwealth can stay here after serving ONLY four years in the services
Why should the Gurkas be treated in the foul and discriminatory way that Brown wished to impose?
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21. valdan70
Jumping on the bandwagon:
Maybe, but I suspect that as Brown would not be at the debate Cameron wanted to put him on the spot personally. Clegg only had two questions. It may have been done with Clegg's knowledge.
Other Commonwealth troops: many of those who have served want to keep their nationality as was discovered in 2004 when they were ordered to adopt British nationality, and some from countries like South Africa last fought 'officially' for the Commonwealth in the late 40s and 50s. They may not want to travel at their age.
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The implication in your report is that Brown is running the economy well and is only lacking in areas which are less important. I have to say I am surprised at you saying this, as we have proof positive that he is not running the economy well either.
In fact watching Brown at PMQs these days is a very embarrassing experience. He now dithers all over the place and is unable to pronounce his words properly.
Are you really telling us that he needs Mandelson and Balls to baby-sit him before he is able to make decisions or perform in public. Well that must explain why we are in such a mess, when we have a PM who is incapable of dealing with issues without his advisors telling him what to do and how to behave.
Trust this dreadful Government to only take a stand on immigration when it is worthy people like the Gurkhas that they refuse. This is just another example of poor judgement on behalf of this Government, it really is time for them to go.
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The decision to only allow Gurkha officers to settle in Britain ... yes, I know that Wackie Jacquie didn't know that Gurkha riflemen only sign up for 18 years, not 20 - but she should have known ... will, I think, prove the defining moment in Gordon Brown's ministry. Forget all the mistakes in supporting greedy bankers, this is the cock-up that has cost him the next general election ... most people dont understand the ins and outs of the economy and the stock market, but they have a finely developed sense of what is right and fair. ... bye, bye Mr. Brown.
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As usual, Nick, you totally misunderstand the true mood, both in Parliament, and in the country.
While you're busy trying to shore-up the PM with fluffy words about labour thinking that they should just whip themselves into shape a bit better, the electorate (and most labour MPs) have reached a state of rebellion which is only going to increase.
By the time Brown suffers a defeat on the expenses (or pulls all expenses votes from the timetable which amounts to the same thing), the time will finally have come when my BBC blog name of GetRidofGordonNow becomes no longer relevant.
The electorate have finally all seen Brown for what he is (a mind-blowingly negligent idiot who does not understand any aspects of reality), and labour MPs are getting that reaction from their own voters and are running scared.
Brown is not going to last another week in office, we'll have an election within 3 months, and labour will be lucky if they come 3rd.
I shall get the champagne ready.
(well, I can dream, can't I?)
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21#
Well, Labour have quite happily let everyone else in, regardless!! Labour were warned and warned and warned time and time and time again, that the Immigration policy and its supporting infrastructure was not fit for purpose, to put it diplomatically. What did you do about it?
NOTHING.
So, every man jack from every dispossessed corner of the globe still thinks the streets of London are paved with gold and your feeble government's Immigration department misses most of them, lets those who overstay have leave to stay and cant even throw them out when they come out of jail. You've had 12 years to sort immigration out, stop making excuses.
I will give Brown credit for one thing. ONE thing. He quite correctly said that prior to 1997, the Gurkhas didnt have ANY such rights that they've got now. That is true, the conservatives had more than enough opportunity to right that wrong and it is somewhat hollow of Cameron to take a high profile on it now. Gordon's problem in this case is as Clegg said, he gave a technocratic answer and just does not understand the phrase "Debt Of Honour". This is what we owe to the Gurkhas, it is what we owe to the Sikhs, the Fijians, the South Africans, all the commonwealth nations whose sons our politicians have sent to their deaths on the battlefields over the last 100 years. So its going to cost. So what? Someone's son or father has paid the ultimate price in blood to this country. If they've served the time, they deserve our thanks and a place in the country they have served with incredible bravery and dignity for 200 years. This is the very least we owe them.
Maybe our politicians will think twice about sending our troops on foreign adventures if they work out the consequences of their actions first.
Compared to what was shelled out to Northern Crock, RBS and the like, not to mention the VAT giveaway that never was, £1.4Bn for 200 years of unquestioning, loyal, faithful service to the crown is a drop in the ocean.
Gordon should just have gone the whole hog and did what needed to be done, instead of getting that waste of space Woollas to try and deliver the bad news. But, as a egomaniacal PM, who deposed the elected PM of the day in what is tantamount to a coup, what would Gordon know of the words "Debt Of Honour"?
Nothing.
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Hi Nick
Saw you on the Daily Politic regarding the Gurkha vote. Your observation was that 'governments win, always assume they have the votes. The issue is not how likely it is that they are defeated.'
What went wrong with that theory then !
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43#
It does not necessarily mean that they WILL all stay, but they should have the choice. That is the least we owe them. And yes, given the choice, I would welcome those who had worn the uniform of the UK's Armed Forces with open arms, if they wished to settle here, compared to those who come here now.. particularly those who do nothing but slag the UK off, go on training camps to blow up the population and demand their own parliament, whilst holding their hands out grasping at whatever benefits they can get.
Anything less is an insult to those who have served and died for our freedom. Brown could have righted this wrong, but as ever, spectacularly failed to think it through properly and see it through.
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So it's the fact he no advisers that he keeps cocking up?
He can have all the advisers on God's earth but, at the end of the day, he's meant to take the final decision, take the resposibility.
Isn't he, Nick?
Or is he just not up to the job?
Let me have a think.
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I'm not sure that the advice Gordon Brown is getting is the issue here at all.
The government lost the high court judgement declaring the policy towards the Gurkhas to be unlawful. This should have told him that the situation required a major rethink. Did he get it ? No.
The government gudgingly produced after some months a policy which made as little difference to the situation as they possibly could. There was considerable adverse public reaction to this, and not only did Phil Woolas attempt to talk up what was being proposed, Gordon Brown actually supported the proposals. I get the impression that the government went to great lengths to appear to be doing a great deal whilst actually achieiveing and offering very little in reality. Did he get it ? No.
Even today, all he was further offering was another review. NO prizes for guessing what that review would conclude. They have had months to have a review after the high court ruling but failed to address the issue. Did he take the opportunity do so? No. He mentioned today something about the changes being "staged" and 1.4 billion pounds being need. Where has this come from ? Phil Woolas didn't mention staging last week.
Exactly what do the government have against the Gurkhas ? Opening our border to 100,000 people as claimed ? The Gurkhas have earned the right to live here, serving our country when we really needed them. The government, however, are happy to sign a treaty opening our borders to 500 million people in the EU, most of whom have contributed or done nothing to warrant the right to be here. Does he get it ? No.
I do not know a single person who is opposed to letting the Gurkhas live in the UK. Why does Gordon Brown think the opposite ? Its about doing the right thing. Gordon Brown loves to lecture us about "his moral compass", and "what his father told him", so how does this nasty, spiteful approach of his fit in with that ? It's not about advise, its about right and wrong and moral responsibility.
Whilst todays vote was lost by the government, I fear that this may not be the end of the matter. Apparently its not legally binding. Who's to say he'll ignore the high court ruling and the parliamentary vote and carry on regrdless in the usual "Gordon knows best" manner. ?
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#sicilian29
My point entirely. You can't have it both ways. David Cameron may live to regret his words if he should win the next election. It was he who said we should offer residence to ALL THOSE (and their families) who fought for this country. The numbers could be enormous. Words and grandstanding are cheap; its actions that count. Let's wait and see if he puts his money where his mouth is if he comes to office.
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Badly advised? No an ignorant choice, along with most of his decisions.
Nick you forget that this man is supposed to be leading the country, if he can't use his own senses to see the massive weight of public opinion against him then he deserves to go.
More importantly if he sees it and chooses to ignore it then he needs to go even faster.
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Forgot to mention well done to Joanna Lumley and Nick Clegg for all their work.
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Well done to all those MP's that voted against this morally bankrupt government. is there a list that can name and shame the mp's that voted for the government, i believe their constituants and the public have the right to know.
Also im am getting mighty fed up with this latest spin line and no one challenging it's content, that it is the Labour party that are the only ones that have ever done any thing for the ghurkas, LIES LIES and MORE LIES, pre 1997 the ghurkas we're able to apply to reside in Hong Kong a British colony when Hong Kong was handed over to the chinese in 1997, it was then beholdent of the British government at that time, which was nu labour, to make alternative arrangements, which they have continuously made a pigs ear of (no relation to swine flu) so Nick will you at least try to give some actual facts regarding this issue, or are you still going along with this crass governemnt to ensure your place on the PM's global jaunts. absolutly disgusting. and pray tell exactly what positive benefits has gordon brown brought to our economy, Nick if you are going to spout these things at least have the decency to back your comments up with facts.
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Nick, when you speak in such glowing terms about the contributions of Balls, Mandelson, McBride and Campbell as if they understand and alwyas did understand the mood of the people, you and they are misguided; they only succeeded because New Labour had such a commanding majority in the House despite being elected by only 25% of they electorate.
This meant they were able to orchestrate and get away with, in a talented way (your words, not mine), the dark art of spin and deceit and dishonesty..... With articles like this, Nick, you are in danger of joining this infamous lot as well.
(The only time New Labour got the mood of the country right was when Princess Diana died; the Peoples Princess and all that.)
I know, I know, before the rabble starts reminding me that this is how the UK system works with the first past the post system, it does not get away the fact that the mood of the rest of the country resides in the remaining 75% outside the New Labour bubble and Westminster; all this is coming to the fore now. When, in addition, you start to lose the mood of your own majority party, you are completely stuffed.
Until this government realises that the vast numbers of this country are a proud, honourable people who have integrity and a sense of fair play, they do not stand, nor do they deserve a chance to win the next General Election.
As regards your 'away from the economy' remarks, Nick you are away with the fairies and it does even warrant further comment.
But well done, at least this story was on topic.
Enjoy the football.
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He's being badly advised - just who is running this country? Advisors or the PM. Why on earth should 'the man who purports to save the world' need advice on this issue.
GB is a walking talking....scrub that, GB is a mumbling bumbling liability of the highest order. It is not a question of bad advice...it is another admission, if another was required (take not accepting comments to number 10 tv), that he simply does not listen to anyone except the voices in his head.
I have raised a petition (waiting for it to be accepted) for him to ask the Queen to dissolve parliament this summer before he resigns so we can have our say.
WHat was his riposte on being defeated on this issue - oh yes, it's not binding - I expect there will be a few Nokia's and printers smashed this evening....no doubt paid for by us!!!
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Just imagine, if the Brown government looses the Thurday vote on expenses, isnt that tantimount to a parliamentary vote of no confidence?
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GB wrote a book on courage didn't he, I can't think of anyone less qualified to do so, he clearly doesn't recognise true courage. I was in Normandy recently, you cannot fail to be moved by the lines of gravestones of soldiers who died to preserve our freedoms which this government seeks to destroy.
Gurkhas, and those from other countries who fought beside our forces, deserve to be allowed residence in the UK. No, not just allowed, actually the right of residence, they have earned it and if it costs it costs, end of story.
It's about time some of those cowards in the PLP took GB to one side and told him to get his coat, but they would take courage wouldn't it.
By the way, on Amazon you can get a 65% discount on GB's book, sadly the value of the man himself is now zero.
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Badly advised?? Do we inhabit the same planet Mr Robinson? Brown listens to no-one because he thinks he is always right. The first lost vote of many.
General Election NOW!
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I believe that many contributors have probably missed a major point. I suspect that Gordon Brown is so unsuited to the job of PM that he is cracking under the strain and his mental state is becoming unbalanced. Were he a navy captain, his officers would now be discussing replacing him in his position of authority, with the possibility of a charge of mutiny if they were judged to be wrong. This is the position which Labour MPs are now in. Give it time (perhaps not too long) and Gordon will have a breakdown and have to leave office.
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"Incidentally, today's vote is a significant victory for Nick Clegg who, as his predecessor Paddy Ashdown did many years ago with the case of passports for the Hong Kong Chinese, found his voice speaking up for Britain's moral obligations."
How about his moral obligation to support a referendum on the EU constitution?
Oh of course, it's only when he can score political points. Same old Lib Dems.
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Old Trafford?? You always seem to be absent when Gordon needs you most.
On this issue and many, GB is so far out of touch that he is almost delusional. He has done some things right about the economy, but that which he has done has been too long in the making. This odd trillion quid he's looking to wast....spend I mean over the next few years is not a great idea. He's been lectured in Chile and this week in Poland about his policies.
He looks like he needs a holiday and I hope the MPs decide that is what he needs for the good of him, and the country.
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#63 tisfedup: "pre 1997 the ghurkas we're able to apply to reside in Hong Kong a British colony when Hong Kong was handed over to the chinese in 1997, it was then beholdent of the British government at that time, which was nu labour, to make alternative arrangements, .."
So why didn't the tory government pre-May 1997 announce that all former and serving Gurkhas would of course be able to come to the UK after completion of their service? If you are going to try to re-write history you should make a better job of it than that.
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No. 69
I'm no fan of Mr Brown, however I would not wish any sort of breakdown on him. For his sake please, someone who has his ear, risk a laser printer on the toe and tell him its time to go, before its too late!
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Nick,
"Damien Mcbride was valuable to the PM"
What is this meant to mean, half of labours own MPs did not have a good word for the man, are you sure you not looking to be his replacement.
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The government stopped listening to people along time ago. Iraq, ID cards, Freedom on information act, MP expenses are all examples where they thought they knew best. Thank god for the House of Lords (never thought I would say that). They stopped/slowed down some of the more crazy schemes.
The simple issue is in UK politics people remain in power too long. The same thing happened to Thatcher and Conservatives. There should be term limits so that you can only be a member of the government for two terms and then you have to go to the back benches.
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Ironic, that the first real nail in Brown's political coffin looks as though it will be from a military issue. The Armed Forces have never been high on Labour's agenda, except when they were needed to appease the Americans.
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Gordon Brown may have made misjudgements on The Ghurkas and MP's expenses but the comments on here just go to show that you made misjudgements with the words by which you opened this thread. If you look carefully you will see a common element in the responses of those who disagree with your opening remarks. I may however forgive you as like me you are a Manchester United supporter but I suggest you choose your words more carefully when you open your next blog.
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Oh, one thing I forgot to mention, the Gurkha motto is:
Better to die than be a coward
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60 valdan70
"My point entirely. You can't have it both ways. David Cameron may live to regret his words if he should win the next election. It was he who said we should offer residence to ALL THOSE (and their families) who fought for this country. The numbers could be enormous. Words and grandstanding are cheap; its actions that count. Let's wait and see if he puts his money where his mouth is if he comes to office."
I see - it was obviously David Cameron who made the really big mistakes and misjudged the public feeling leading upto this vote........no mention of Gordon Browns judgement in your posts though.... or if you think he was right.
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The Gurkhas were prepared to put their lives on the line for our country, and Brown doesn't want them. He does however want unrestricted immigration from Pakistanis who want us to educate their children, provide them with free healthcare while they work out how to blow us up, is it just me or is something wrong here.
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"It is proof, if any were needed, that away from the economy the prime minister is consistently misjudging issues."
Nick get a grip, you've been travelling with Crash too long. Why did you exclude the economy? Tax, borrow and waste for 12 years!
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With respect you seem to have missed the political significance here, Nick.
This shamed government has been brought crashing to its knees by a feared alliance of Tories, LibDems and back-bench Labour MPs which cast further doubts on Brown's authority.
It's what New Labour dread. A deadly alliance of Tories, LibDems and backbench Labour MPs.
This Dad's Army bunch of ministers and pay-roll MPs led by corporal Brown deserved their comeuppance. Fancy picking a fight with the Gurkhas.
http://theorangepartyblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/gurkha-shame-brings-brown-to-his-knees_29.html
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I hope other brown faced people like me look at the British Govenment and remember what it is doing and when it comes begging for help say No. Robert Maxwell as he became fought for Britian and look what he got and what he did not enough questions there, Conrad Black be came British to get a gong for him and his wife no problem living here, Penocha man of peace I think Thatcher called him in one of her chemical moments he lived here along with many other undesirables the double standard is typically English elite, kill for us but your not living next door. It makes you proud to be a black woman in England, god knows how Joanna Lumly feels. Who cares what Brown says he is not even elected.
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21. valdan70 wrote:
What will happen when the South Africans, the Sarawak Rangers from Borneo, the Fijian Infantrymen, the Indians, the Sikhs and anybody else or their descendants who can prove their forefathers fought for Britain in the then British Empire, wishes to settle in the UK with their families. Are we going to welcome them with open arms as well?
=========================================================
Valdan70, I'm writing in response to your above posting, so I don't think it should be removed as being "off-topic". In reply, I simply state, how come we have to welcome Pakistanis, Iraqis and Afghanistans, who have never served in the British armed forces with open arms?I will probably be (wrongly) accused of racism because of currnt political expidiency.
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Surely some praise must go to Martin Salter,the chair of the all party parliamentary group on gutkhas rights.This brave parliamentarian showed his support for the gurkhas by abstaining from voting.This same politician has been doing the rounds of the tv stations trying to take praise for something he didn't do,vote against his leader.
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PurpleDogzzz has it spot on, what a way to treat heroes. Crash should be very ashamed.
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Nick, are you having an identity crisis?
If I move my mouse cursor over your picture at the top of this blog, it says "A picture of Razia Iqbal". Are you moonlighting as the BBC arts correspondent?
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There is so much hot air about the subject of the Ghurkas, who I think are very worthy people, and deserve recognition. But everybody is critical of Gordon Brown, and nobody asks the question: What did any Tory government do for the Ghurkas in the long years since the end of the second world war ? As Gordon said today, the situation may not be perfect, but more has been done for the Ghurkas since 1997 than ever before. In my opinion, the Lib Dems have a hidden agenda and are using this issue as the only way they can see to get the public's attention.
I think in difficult circumstances Gordon Brown is doing a good job,and is the only leader, apart from the U.S. president who has any idea of how to handle the economic crisis. I realise I am in the minority in this opinion amongst these comments,but that does not mean that I am wrong. I do not naively follow the biased propoganda that is pumped out by the media which is overwhelmingly governed by right-wing management.
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Two points
[a] All credit to Joanna Lumley for helping to bring the Gurkha issue to public attention; but I am somewhat concerned over Britain's obligations to Nepal the country - as well as to those Nepalese men who have served with such distiction in the British Army.
I understand that the traditional pattern of life for a Gurkha soldier has been that for as long as twenty years he has served in a "foreign field". Meanwhile his income has supported his family back in Nepal, which made a treaty with England in the Nineteenth Century by which Nepal- an independent and unconquered state- accepted this arrangement.
During periods of summer leave the Gurkha would usually return home to keep in contact with his roots, and these visits allowed his family to grow. At the end of his service he would return to his family, that by this time usually had one of the best houses in his village; and he would receive a pension for the rest of his life that would allow him to live comfortably in Nepal.
The system obviously offered some advantages to Nepal in return for the loss of some of the "Flower" of each generation- not just the fallen but the "absent with leave". I do not know what else besides tourism allows Nepal to earn a living in the global community; but clearly the flow of money into the country for some of these men who have been retired for more than forty years must have some benefit to the country...
So surely the Nepalese State is an interested party in this issue.
[b] While we awaited Gordon Brown's succession to power, I reflected that this would be a third Scottish Succession,and the previous two resulted in major revolutions-
(1) James I and the English Revolution of the Seventeenth Century, and (2) Lord Bute, George III's old tutor, who George made his First Minister when he ascended the throne in 1760. It led to the Wilkes and Liberty movement in England and the American Revolution.
I wondered how what would happen this time!
Still wondering.
Cass
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Has anyone seen Nick Robinson and Razia Iqbal together, well then the answer is obvious.
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Brown lacks all the qualities the British admire so much in the Gurkahs.Courage,integrity,leadership,determination and courage once again.
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#88
You ARE Derek Draper and I claim my 5 pounds.
You say: "I think in difficult circumstances Gordon Brown is doing a good job,and is the only leader, apart from the U.S. president who has any idea of how to handle the economic crisis"
Did you not read the news of his Vistit to Poland yesterday...or the wise words from Chile, or the kicking he gets from Germany, or France...or the IMF! Or the Gov of BofE...or any leading economist...or Vince Cable....even Joanna Lumley gave him a taste of his own hypocritical medicene when asked where should Gordon find the money...
Are you one of the believers that the mess we are in has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Brown...at all???
As with the Ghurka vote, this PM has shown he is not fit to make himself a coffee...
We need an election
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Nick,
Knowing how these things go in political parties, I think you're not thinking deviously enough about what has happened.
We all know that there's little huddles of Labour MPs and ministers plotting Brown's downfall, and this may well be the opening salvo. He was probably advised, maybe by Balls or Mandelson or Campbell, to take this stance. He was probably assured that the party was behind him, in the full knowledge that he'd lose the vote. This could well be Blair's long-awaited payback, but I strongly suspect it's the opening gambit in a bid to replace Brown as leader. It's a clear sign that he's lost the confidence of Labour MPs and ministers, and I think we'll see Brown resign in the next few days.
Quite frankly, Labour have nothing to lose and everything to gain by changing leader now. It gives time for the new leader to start working with people rather than in isolation, to build up a team spirit which is sadly lacking in the current one-man-band government we have at the moment, and to show the country that they are different to Brown. And in Brown they have the perfect scapegoat for the mess the country is in.
For the Tories, of course, a new leader is the nightmare scenario. If Brown hangs in there, they are bound to win the next election, but with Mandelson or Straw or Khan as PM instead, it's much less certain.
Interesting times!
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Let's try again as I was moderated at 91.
I will try it in stages - 1. Brown has no idea of the mood of the British people.
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Let's try again as I was moderated at 91.
I will try it in stages - 2. What is Robinson doing watching a football match when he should be doing his job? That job is to report on Political Matters - He is after all the ' Chief Political Coreespondant' for the BBC.
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Let's try again as I was moderated at 91.
I will try it in stages - 3. The Ghurkas deserve to be in this country. They are a proud and responsible people, who have served us well, and should be respected. They will not live on society, but rather contribute to it. How do I know - I am honoured to have served with them.
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Nick, can you hear all of this? Can you hear the noise?
You're out of touch or in denial, but Brown and ZaNu Labour are on the way out. Stop being biased and start reporting the news.
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90. greatvoiceofreason
I think, gvor, that you are asking too much of Goldenadastra.
Nick
Hope you enjoyed the prawn sandwiches.
Back on message, but who's message now?
It must be difficult keeping a foot in both camps.
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economy aside? ill treat that remark with the same contempt that brown and co have given to every taxpayer who has to pay the national debt back for more than a decade!
how much longer before a vote of no confidence? dropped his youtube plans because he would have suffered a huge defeat, now the ghurka vote defeat, with a majority of more than 60 and still beaten? surely now his time his up!
there is a sideline on this issue though, that seems to be striking a chord with the british public:
many posts refer to other groups also being able to mount a legal challenge to settle in the UK and probably winning.
could it be that the british public are sick to the back teeth with electing MPs who seem to have no power to make decisions anymore?
the "swine flu" issue is a good example - the UK has many reserves and action plans in place to fight/tackle an outbreak, on a huge scale. however, they cannot action it until the WHO declare the flu a pandemic!
why ever not? shouldnt politics of all persuasions go back to being elected into genuine power (ie, make decisions), not be at the beck and call of foreign courts and unelected bodies and groups, over whom there is little to stop them doing as they want, regardless of the peoples/parliaments view?
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"It is proof, if any were needed, that away from the economy the prime minister is consistently misjudging issues."
Why do you exclude the economy - the area of Brown and Labour's most dire errors?
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Hi Nick
I hope you enjoyed the game....
As to Gordon Brown I am a little confused by your implied assertion that he is handling the economy well. I would be grateful if you could explain this a little further. Some examples of how he is handling it well might help.
You might wish to avoid the list of foreign leaders who have lectured him on fiscal profligacy as I am not a cruel man.
With regard to the Gurkhas and MPs expenses he is not solely responsible for the mess as these are things which began before his tenure as Prime Minister but the list of moral issues where he has lacked a moral compass is building....
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63. At 8:20pm on 29 Apr 2009, tisfedup wrote:
Well done to all those MP's that voted against this morally bankrupt government. is there a list that can name and shame the mp's that voted for the government, i believe their constituants and the public have the right to know.
===
The Liberal Democrats say 28 Labour MPs rebelled against the government over the number of Gurkhas allowed to live in the UK. This is their list:
Dianne Abbott
Ian Cawsey
Harry Cohen
Jeremy Corbyn
Paul Farrelly
Mark Fisher
Neil Gerrard
Kate Hoey
Kelvin Hopkins
Joan Humble
Glenda Jackson
John McDonnell
Shona McIsaac
Andrew MacKinlay
Gordon Marsden
Bob Marshall Andrews
Julie Morgan
Nick Palmer
Stephen Pound
Nick Raynsford
Andy Reed
Linda Riordan
Alan Simpson
Andrew Smith
Paul Truswell
Keith Vaz
Robert Wareing
Mike Wood
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"It is proof, if any were needed, that away from the economy the prime minister is consistently misjudging issues."
Nick, Nick, Nick - whatever came over you to write such tosh? Brown is a disaster with the economy, as well as on everything else. I think you need to write this out 100 times and apologise to teacher.
Get back from Old Trafford sharpish or you might miss the end-game!
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Nick,
In respect of this statement, "that away from the economy the prime minister is consistently misjudging issues", it has been pointed out by many is a gross misstatement of Brown's capabilities and implies that he is handling the economy well.
However, I do not believe you made this claim by mistake. I believe you made it after very careful consideration.
I accuse you of deliberately phrasing this statement in such a way so as to mislead your viewers and readers.
I accuse you of being a propagandist for the Labour party.
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Superb result for the Gurkhas, and for Ms Lumley and the other campaigners.
Superb result for democracy. Provided of course the Dear Leader respects the democratically-expressed will of the house.
Superb result too for Nick Clegg, it has to be said.
And superb result for those who realise they have to replace Brown ASAP if Labour is to have any chance at all come the election. The abstentions spoke volumes...
Mixed bag for Cameron, since it was Clegg's victory and it brings his nightmare of a new Labour leader before the election a lot closer.
Poor from Nick Robinson again though. So, its all the fault of his acolytes now, is it? Just for once, before the Dear Leader's career in politics ends as most do, can you bring yourself to actually hold him responsible for anything rather than just being a continual apologist for him? Your job is to report the news surely, not assist in the spin?
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A great day for Britain (at last) our true comrades and allies the Gurkhas and most certainly the beginning of the end for Brown and his Labour party (excepting those Labour MPs who defied their party whips).
I loved Joanna's reply to a reporter's question, "But how can the government find the GBP £1.4 billion?" She looked him in straight in the eye and spat back "Borrow it". I hope she's honoured with a peerage.
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Taking the political "mood", eh? I had a different four-letter word in mind, but it probably would not have passed moderation. Is there a urologist in the House?
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I'm not a Brown fan, but I do want to defend Nick on this point. He said that, "It is proof, if any were needed, that away from the economy the prime minister is consistently misjudging issues. His handling of MPs' expenses and the Gurkhas - issues that are far from being the major questions of our age but which generate huge public emotion - suggest if nothing else that he is being badly advised."
He is not, I think, talking about GB's general record over the last decade, but about his political "touch" just at the moment. Many people are criticising GB for his part in the huge financial/economic crisis we are living in. However, few have any suggestions that anyone at numbers 10 or 11 Downing Street could be doing anything very different from what's happening *here and now*. The actions of other governments of developed world countries are broadly similar to those taken by our own government.
It seems likely that any plausible replacement for Brown, from either side of the Commons, would take broadly similar measures. It also seems unlikely that any advisor could make a significant improvement in either the substance or the presentation of the government's handling of the recession. "Do what little you can, and tell everyone that the sun will come out tomorrow."
To that extent, I agree with Nick that Brown is probably AT THIS MOMENT making the best job of crisis management in the economy that he can. Further that it's unlikely that any member of the current cabinet could do any better. And could David Cameron? Well, let's put it this way, I imagine the Tories are hoping for a nicely delayed election - I don't think they'd want to be blamed for what's going to happen in the next 12 months.
The point that Nick is making, I think, is that Brown seems to be making so many unnecessary mistakes, and mis-reading the mood of the nation.
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105 MaxSceptic
The idea that Brown is 'misjudging issues' is certainly an understatement, but perhaps that is as far as Nick can go. Obviously, we understand the BBC must always be impartial.
However, even Brown's most loyal supporters cannot fail to see the game is up.
The parallels with end of Labour's administration in 1979 are quite striking. 30 years ago, the Labour Government was eventually put out of its misery after they lost a vote of confidence and an election was finally called.
It's a pity that this Government today doesn't have any sense of honour. After losing the vote on the Gurkhas, Brown should do as Jim Callaghan did and call an election.
Back in 1979, the country was on its knees under Jim Callaghan and Denis Healey, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The government had run out of money and had gone cap in hand to the IMF. Callaghan didn't actually say 'crisis, what crisis?' (that was The Sun!) but clearly he was in denial. 30 years on, they still think tax and waste is the solution.
After losing the vote today, Brown should stand down and call an election.
As Callaghan said back in 1979, "Mr Speaker, now that the House of Commons has declared itself, we shall take our case to the country"
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#115 pvsutton
Many people are criticising GB for his part in the huge financial/economic crisis we are living in. However, few have any suggestions that anyone at numbers 10 or 11 Downing Street could be doing anything very different from what's happening *here and now*. The actions of other governments of developed world countries are broadly similar to those taken by our own government.
=====
Let's get this tosh sorted out. The whole of the last 9 years of economic 'boom' has been built on interest rates that were too low, backed up by bent inflation figures that caused a massive credit bubble, the likes of which has NEVER happened before.
Anyone who really cared to look past first base could see that, eventually the bubble would burst. The only doubt was what the pin would be that pricked that bubble. It turned out to be the very worst scenario - the banking system imploded.
Ever since the dotcom explosion and 9/11, the 'growth' in the UK economy was built solely and totally on a house price bubble caused by the credit expolsion.
The whole economy was a con. But then the whole Labour administration is a con.
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113 TallyHo
Regarding your excellent suggestion for an honour...
I wonder... Under Harriet Harman's Equality Bill, perhaps Joanna Lumley could be made a Knight?
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Its time for someone to tap Gordon on the shoulder and say
"If only for the sake of the party you must go and go now."
Every day he clings on he discredits his party and even those MP's who believe they have safe seats must be getting more worried by the day.
Tomorrow the labour MP's can either save their leader or lose themselves their seats by voting to support his discredited and feeble attempt at allowing them more expenses without receipts.
Why can't MP's submit receipts for all reasonable expenses like everyone else?
Perhaps the time has come for the general public to make their opinions clear in the forthcoming European elections.
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No 117, you're wrong about the "prick" that burst the credit bubble. You've bought into the spin that the recession caused the banking crisis and that is quite wrong. What, after all, caused the banking crisis?
What happened was that America's economy started to slow down and households across the States suddenly discovered they couldn't service their mountains of debt.
So, a recession was already coming.
The unfortunate thing is that golems like Greenspan and Brown thought they'd discovered Nirvana, when, as you rightly say, all they were doing was massaging inflation figures to keep interest rates low.
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Well done to Nick Clegg et all in pushing the Gurkhas' case. However, one gets the feeling this was a case of scoring easy political points. Might I suggest that Clegg and Cameron now champion the cause of the Chagos Islanders, who were removed from their homeland by Britain in the '60s and have been fighting to return ever since. Labour have denied them that right, despite a series of court victories for the islanders. Of course, by fighting their corner, it would mean the Lib Dems and Tories standing up to the US, to whom Britain leased the islands, so would involve a lot more political risk than supporting the Gurkhas. But it would demonstrate that our leaders-in-waiting are principled men and not just opportunists jumping on the nearest bandwagon in order to embarrass the government.
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The only thing saving Gordon; is the giant mess he has made of the economy. I suspect even the opposition aren't in to much of a hurry, after all they are going to have to give the public the harsh truth that Gordon and Alistair have been hiding; of yet more taxes and reduced government spending over next 10 years to pay of the debt mountain.
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nick @ 0
the prime minister is consistently misjudging issues
I have no strong opinion on this Ghurka thing but it's clear that what Brown didn't do was go in for cheap populism (would have been a gimme, wouldn't it?) and he has to be respected for that
distant @ 118
Under Harriet Harman's Equality Bill, perhaps Joanna Lumley could be made a Knight?
yes that's an idea and, while we're talking about H, I was rather surprised she got no mention from Jim @ 96 as a potential successor to Gordon - her bill sounds good (assuming it does what it says on the tin) and she was particularly eloquent in explaining it the other day - for example ... she has identified that, although women naturally live longer than men, rich men live longer than poor women! - and not only has she identified that, she's going to do something about it - yes yes, before you all come piling in with your silly jokes, what she'll be doing is increasing the lifespan of poorer women, rather than actively reducing that of rich old men - no pussyfooting about with Harriet, is my point - direct, forceful communication going straight to the heart of what matters ... refreshing
blue matter @ 117
the 'growth' in the UK economy was built solely and totally on a house price bubble caused by the credit explosion
nope, not true at all, we haven't had a house price bubble - for many years, based on the fundamentals of supply and demand, rental yields and long term interest rates, property in the UK was seriously undervalued - it was due a significant (and perfectly rational) upwards correction and that duly happened over the period to 2005 - it then overshot by maybe 25 pc or so (the price rises of 06 and 07) but that's fairly typical when a market goes through a large upwards correction - prices will stabilise at around 2005 levels (wiping out the froth of the 2 subsequent years) and then start rising again - no big deal, no bubble
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ask ye around
in country and town
... when is a clown not a Clown?
the answer you'll hear
if you prick up your ears
... is a clown's not a Clown when he's Brown!
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Great news for the Gurkhas! They deserve it.
As for Nick Clegg, I find myself agreeing with him on a lot of issues. The Lib Dems has the potential to become a credible party contender, if they can stick to their election manifesto, and ensure proper implementations of their policies.
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123 sagamix
"what Brown didn't do was go in for cheap populism (would have been a gimme, wouldn't it?) and he has to be respected for that"
Cheap populism ? You may not have an opinion on the Gurkhas but many other people do. And what about the high court ruling declaring the policy unlawful. Was the judge playing to "cheap populism too ?
I think that what Brown didn't go in for was doing the right thing morally, and no one respects I know him for it.
I usually enjoy you posts, even if I don't agreee with many of them. Respect Gordon Brown if you wish on this one, but sharing his sense of moral values can't be a very nice position to be in IMO.
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"It is proof, if any were needed, that away from the economy the prime minister is consistently misjudging issues."
Some mistake surely ? he is misjudging the ecomony issues BIG Time
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#123 sagamix
I'll simply save that post for future reference, Mr Sagamix. But nice to see that there is someone out there who still believes that the nonsense spouted during the housing boom was the truth.
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The question of Chagos Islanders and other good causes is not comparable with the Gurkha issue. Brown was trying to slip past a) a High Court decision in tyheir favour b) A very clear moral principle and c) a wave of pubclic feeling, and d) Joanna Lumley in full, perfectly justified, flow. On this Brown was wrong, badly advised or whatever, and even seemed to realise that he should be ashamed of what he was doing himself. Then to claim that a cost of £1.4bn made it prohibitive was simply laughable - that's no more than a rounding error in his growth forecasts we are all supposed to believe. He had several chances to do the right thing and deliberately went the other way. A true sign of his charhacter and a reason he will be on his way as soon as the public (or even the PLP) get a chance to have their say in a vote.
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well Nick, this beats it all. This is the most blatantly biased and sycophantic piece you have ever had the nerve to write ! Undeniably Brown is your hero - fair enough - but don,t pretend to be an objective reporter when you indirectly praise this abysmal PM when everything EVERYTHING he touches tuns to disaster ! Please follow your job desciption not your leader !
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anyone else seen this?
http://www.labourhome.org/story/2009/4/28/82152/3125
I dont know how representative of Labour this blog is, but even so.....
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123:
I was thinking as she was speaking that she might be tempted to become a politician and join the ranks of The Lib Dems or The Tories. After what they did to The Ghurkas I doubt The Labour Party is a viable option but you're entitled to dream!
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goldenastrada @ 88:
Even those who previously supported Gordon Brown in his own party acknowledge that he is not in fact now doing a good job. One BBC correspondent last night mentioned a Labour stalwart backbencher who when referring to Gordon Brown generously interspersed his comments with the 'f' word. His own core supporters are now beginning to see the light. Look at Labour List and Labour Home and you will notice a similar trend. Blaming his demise on the right wing press is a convenient cop out but an incorrect one.
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121
Talk in general of political "pandering" and "jumping on bandwagons" is quite a long way off base.
Ministers are peoples representatives. They are meant to capture the mood of the people, and do what the people want them to do.
There are of course instances where the government is privvy to better information than the people, and should therefore follow its own advice. But in a simple ethical decision such as this, any minister who ignores the mood of the people is abusing the position he has been granted.
Therefore "jumping on the bandwagon" is an extremely innappropriate turn of phrase in the circumstances. Because the popular view is the one of the county's populace, and therefore the one ministers should be advancing.
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blue matter @ 129
But nice to see that there is someone out there who still believes that the nonsense spouted during the housing boom was the truth
why don't you have a crack at answering my points? - you know, advance a counter argument in which you display a dazzling command of lucid, lacerating logic - go on, it'll feel much more satisfying I promise you ...
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Nick, I am interested to read your comments as to who is "advising" our inglorious leader as you are clearly, despite being an "independent" political journalist, so close to the action.
Mandelson,McBride and Campbell (thank god he's only part time) - who don't even have a single damn vote between them to do anything in this country.
And Balls, who, along with Brown and Blair, is responsible for the terrible economic mess this country is now in.
What a dreadful state of affairs.
If you should by any chance be giving Brown any advice Nick, please don't try to con him into thinking that his judgement on the economy is sound.
Because, to paraphrase that old New Labour folk song - "Things ....... can only get worse"
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This is the other thing that amuses me about Brown's stance.
His sole argument for not accepting the Ghurkas is a financial one. It will cost 1.4bn that we don't have, he says.
Aside from the fact that the sum itself is pretty irrelevent against the whopping level of debt he's landed us in...
Isn't this the same man who is defending trident expenditure by stating that the cashflows will over the next 20 years (please feel free to correct that timeframe, can't be bothered to check it). Is he seriously asking us to believe that the 1.4bn for the Ghurkas will be a one off, up front cash outflow?
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To find out which spineless reptiles are just there as lobby fodder for the government go here:
http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2009-04-29&number=104&display=allvotes&sort=vote
Well done to Nick Clegg and the LibDems
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Is this a job ad?
If so, where can I send my CV for the adviser role?
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haye and pickled
Because the popular view is the one of the county's populace, and therefore the one ministers should be advancing
not always ... hanging? ... in public?
I'm not saying I agree with Brown not giving settlement rights to the Gs, I just mean it would have been a very easy people pleaser to have done so and therefore (perversely) the fact that he didn't merits a positive mention - but anyway, I guess you're all pretty much right about this particular issue - what I mainly want to do is update our list of verboten words and phrases - as usual, Guidelines not Rules and offered in the spirit of Quality Control rather than Censorship
so here we go ... before hitting SEND please check your posts against the list below
maxing out his credit card
millstone
necks of our children
our children's children
you tube
gurning
generations to pay off
embarassment
macavity
oh come on saga, that's absolute drivel
plasma TVs and foreign holidays
government mouthpiece
his own backbenchers
... but Robin, you're still fine to say Debt Fuelled Hyperspace
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It is interesting the three leading articles in the times today are all about how utterly useless GB is, the worst PM this country has ever seen. The articles are on 1. his announcement that Afghanistan, part of the crucible of terrorism, is going to see another..... 700 British troups, the Taleban must be running to the hills with worry, 2. the expenses debacle and 3. the Gurkhas defeat. IS GB's political radar in the same place as his supposed strategic brilliance?
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To find out which spineless reptiles are just there as lobby fodder for the government go here:
http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2009-04-29&number=104&display=allvotes&sort=vote
Well done to Nick Clegg and the LibDems
===========================================================
Does anyone know a way to block email these fine upstanding members who put their glorious leaders job above people who risked their lives for this country?
I think they should know how people feel about them.
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Taking the political mood
124.At 03:39am on 30 Apr 2009, sagamix wrote:
ask ye around
in country and town
... when is a clown not a Clown?
the answer you'll hear
if you prick up your ears
... is a clown's not a Clown when he's Brown!
***
Be a clown,
Be a clown,
All the world loves a clown
except when he's Gordon Brown.
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So your masters economic stewardship is good then eh?
Welcome to Browns Britain. (just todays exapmle)
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/uk/1m%20payout%20for%20poverty%20group%20chief/3116857
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Nick, you seem to be drawing an ever thinner line between impartial commentary and unwavering support for a beleagured oaf.
Anybody who does not depend on patronage from our political servants (albeit very highly paid servants who fail to recognise their station in life) has been aware for a very, very, very long time that the oaf Brown lacks personal graces and has low skill levels in the area of understanding the public mood. Every passing day simply cements this.
What we need is a general election, not another exercise of the Labour leadership changing hands in the hope that they can retain power for a further term. Therefore, perversely, I hope Brown clings on to power within the Labour party and leads them to ignominious defeat in the local and European elections in June, followed by a rout in a general election.
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With regard to your assertion that "away from the economy", the point has been made already but it cannot be emphasised enough that this is Brown's greatest deficiency. I think it is dawning on people that not only has the credit 'bubble' burst but the 'bubble' of Brown's economic competence has burst as well. This credibility was always illusory because there was nothing in his background to equip him with the necessary technical knowledge and experience to do the job. Brown simply wanted to direct public spending but had and has no proper understanding of balancing payments and receipts. Listening to Ed Balls does not bridge that gap of knowledge and experience - anything but! Combining this absence of experience with a volatile, angry and 'less than brave' temperament was always going to lead to disaster as indeed it has. Brown is riven with hatred for the Tories and this further clouds his already extremely suspect judgement.
A man of honour would recognise at least some of these faults and submit his government to the judgement of the people in an election. Sadly, there is no hope of this occurring with this deluded, arroganr bully clinging to power as if nothing and nobody else matters.
History will judge this man very harshly as it will his predecessor for a different set of sins.
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Saga, are you suggesting that public hanging would be supported by the majority of the population?
Although I would say as a general rule, if a majority of people believe in capital punishment for particularly despicable crimes, then of course it should be brought back. I do not believe for a second this is the case though.
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Congratulations Nick.
You managed to subtly mention that the PM was a strong leader re the economy - read the red book please or have a word with your mate Peston before making such bonkers claims - and you write the whole piece without mentioning the part Cameron played in this.
It was obviously choreographed.
What is it with the BBC and left wing bias?
Have you no shame?
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Post 144. I would suggest constituents angry at their betrayal of the Gurkhas should turn up at their MP's next local surgery and ask them to their face the following question.
"Why did you feel the need to betray the Gurkhas?"
If enough people turn up and ask the same question I'm sure the message would get through.
You could always of course write letters to your local paper saying you are ashamed that he or she is your MP for the betrayal.
Our Home Secretary's husband used to write complimentary letters to the local paper re her until someone put two and two together about the correspondent being her husband and then he mysteriously stopped. This left time on his hands for other things.
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For once I am in complete support of Nick Clegg and offer him my congratulations.
This issue like the 10p tax and Second home allowance just shows how the PM has lost all feeling for the thoughts of the voting public. The pattern is always the same he and a group of ministers trot out to support the government's position and state their cause and then give way when they suddenly realise they were wrong in the first place.
I never voted for Tony Blair but he would never had made these sorts of decision because he could always judge the public mood perfectly.
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My apologies. Both myself and others have been misspelling the word for our fighting cousins by calling them Ghurkas. It should of course be Gurkhas. It's a natural error when confronted with a word one rarely uses.
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So each Gurkha comming to the UK will cost 1.5 MP'S second homes allouance.......
At least the Gurkhas have defineded freedoms that this country used to be know for where as MP's have passed on average a new criminal law each and every working day for the last 12 years, making us a plice state.
MP's 24k anual second home claims is the new unit of measurement, after all its slightly higher then the average wage it dosn't suffer the TAX / NI incurred on the wage!
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Whilst I agree with their sentiments , I would now like to see Clegg and Cameron tag team the PM in PMQ's on mps' expenses
ah thought not
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Apart from the emotive aspect of what members of the Gurkha regiment have done for this country over the years, the numbers ought to be able to speak for themselves.
Brown's (i.e. the governments) indefensible position was based on three categories - those who have served at least 20 years, or those who have suffered significant injuries in their service, or those that have earned gallantry medals.
It wouldn't take much investigation of the records to identify those living members of the regiment that have served 20 years, given that non-officers are restricted to 15 year terms, nor those that have earned gallantry medals. The contentious point might be based on injuries, and its likely the government would take the same line as most critical injury insurers do.
In any case, the government's approach has been shameful and not worthy of the British peoples gratitude to these brave people.
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oh no I'm being imposted again - see you in court!
seriously, I think we should stop having such a go at Nick - first of all, manners ... it's his house and we keep spilling red wine all over his shagpile - he'll kick us out and call the cops if we're not careful, and I wouldn't really blame him- he's the BBC Political Correspendent, for heaven's sake, not a mouthpiece for the Opposition - on the whole, I think he does a decent job of relaying information without polluting it with his own opinion - from what he writes, you could never guess whether he's planning to vote Lab, Lib or CUPOGBANI Faction, could you?
(got the cheque Nick, thanks)
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So we all forcast the outcome of the gerkahs,as there are still some of us around of whome spent our service with them i nearly hoisted the unoion jack in their honor After all there are quite a few other illeagles living back there, of whome are not fit to lick their boots, you know the ones i mean,the one with the hook for a start spreading his hatered and keeping a harem at the taxpayers expence to boot,if your going to expell any one try that group for a start,Secondly inter net spying ?perhaps the goverment was taking note of what we were disscussing here to come to their scenses for an amicable agreement on the above issuesIf were lucky we might get the opertunite to evaluate their expences after todays fieasco as iam sure there are a number of persons of wome could do with a first home letalone a second one of which to claim expences for ?and soo say all of us the I's have it
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Re: 60
We could counter-balance that by putting a stop to all other immigration except for highly skilled people who have a job to come to.
Re: 123
All HH is doing is to push NuLabour to another Michael[a] Foot moment.
I was going to suggest that someone should buy Brown a copy of Dale Carnegie's book "How to Win Friends & Influence People" but it is too late now. He's a busted flush.
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157. At 10:16am on 30 Apr 2009, sagamix wrote:
oh no I'm being imposted again - see you in court!
seriously, I think we should stop having such a go at Nick - first of all, manners ... it's his house and we keep spilling red wine all over his shagpile
===
We pay for the house and the shagpile!
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Saga..as ever you make a perfectly logical point re the Gurkhas and that it would be an easy people pleaser.
However,you should have asked why it would be a people pleaser?
It seems the majority of the British public genuinely have respect and admiration for the men who have,despite no colonial commitments,laid down their lives for a Country many thousands of miles from their own,for 200 years.
For this reason it would be a people pleaser to allow them in..and quite rightly so,because that's what the electorate want,and Governments are there to serve the people. Therefore it is perfectly valid for individuals to say that Brown missed the mood of the Country,which,in turn,brings into question his judgement.
I know you don't have an problem with the Gurkha issue,but please don't dismiss the importance of it as a 'populist people pleaser' without recognising Browns misjudgment.
Thanks
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72. At 8:59pm on 29 Apr 2009, probablynogod wrote:
re
#63 tisfedup: "pre 1997 the ghurkas we're able to apply to reside in Hong Kong....
you say...
So why didn't the tory government pre-May 1997 announce that all former and serving Gurkhas would of course be able to come to the UK after completion of their service? If you are going to try to re-write history you should make a better job of it than that.
I think probablynogod it is you who is lacking in any form of intelligence 1. you are still defending this disgustingly incompetent government. and 2. in answer to your insinuation that i am trying to rewrite history, i think you will find that the handover of Hong Kong was 1st July 1997, and the general election was on the 1st may 1997.
#So why didn't the tory government pre-May 1997 announce that all former and serving Gurkhas would of course be able to come to the UK after completion of their service? If you are going to try to re-write history you should make a better job of it than that.
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yellow @ 160
sure we do ... but say that (even though you hate the guy she's living with) you bought your daughter a flat, and you go round for dinner every Tuesday ...
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G O R D O N = d r o n g o
a stupid, inept, dimwit or slow-witted person
(Wikipedia)
Got it in one.
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160
To true yellow, but I actually agree with Saga that we are too harsh on Nick. He is a Tory deep down, and perhaps over compensates whilst trying to be impartial. There is also a tendency to show the government in a better light than may be the case, but if he is trying to be impartial and is given only incompetence to work with, this can come accross as bias.
I for one say, lets be glad that he at least tends to ask the difficult questions in interviews.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Very poor judgement indeed, and agree with those posters in regards to the MP's who voted to support the government even though they knew their constituents would wish otherwise. Well done to those handful of Labour MP's who voted with their conscience, in doing this they show me the first glimmer of light for some time that there are decent people in politics after all. Forget postal voting, forget "damaging blogs" bring us honest people who are prepared to serve this country and we will vote for you.
The rumour that Gordon has lost his head is totally incorrect, his proctologist has located it.
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"It is proof, if any were needed, that away from the economy the prime minister is consistently misjudging issues"
Nick, do you mean to tell me, therefore, that as far as the economy is concerned, Gordon Brown is correctly judging the issues - being the architect and master craftsman behind the most spectacular bust in modern British history?
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#157 sagamix
In some respects I agree with you and certainly would not want to damage Nick's shagpile or independence , although preferring white wine I can afford to be more reckless.
I do think Nick is his own worst enemy and his postings are often guilty by omission rather than overt bias in any direction.
There have been many times that Nick has wilfully ignored subjects that have incensed the blogosphere and the kindest thing I can say is that his postings are very selective.
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# 158 quietoldinthetooth
Which language is that in please?
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Blair and Brown were so wrong for this country - and I am not a Tory.
Blair slipped away on his slippery way, leaving Broon to clear up the 'Lord Mayor's Show.' Broon's problem has always been Blair compounded by an almost stoical inability to read the political runes. Broon is a professional Number Two who unfortunately had the death-wish to be Number One with none of the actor in him of his predecessor. This treading through the mire would have happened to anyone following in Blair's wake, for he did spread much to wade through.
Which leaves you and me in never-never land for the next twelve months. That is the shame of it. WE can do NOTHING.
And where is the political Titan to grapple with all this mire?
Well might I ask. I do despair.
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"away from the economy the prime minister is consistently misjudging issues. "
So you mean he doing OK on the economy???
What shape is the sun on your planet Nick?
If the following are not "misjudgments" then I am an Inuit:
Creating and inflating an enormous debt bubble
Destroying pension schemes
Massive PFI off-balance-sheet debts
Massively increasing tax burden through fiscal drag
Selling our gold reserves at bargain bin prices
Creating the biggest trade defecit in 10 years
... I could go on but you get my drift.
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#162 tisfedup:"i think you will find that the handover of Hong Kong was 1st July 1997, and the general election was on the 1st may 1997."
Precisely. You make my point for me - if the Gurkhas were going to be able to leave HK and come to the UK before it reverted to Chinese control the decision would have to have been taken by the Conservative government. Or do you think that Major et al had somehow overlooked the approaching end of our 100 year lease?
Just a bit of advice for free. You must not go around assuming that people who disagree with you, or who are not quite so certain that your position is the right one, are necessarily 'lacking in any form of intelligence'. I know that you would not think so from the media coverage, much less from the comments on here, but there are pragmatic reasons that any government would have to put in the balance alongside the undoubted 'moral' argument before coming to a decision on this issue. I referred to two of them in my original post. It cannot be disputed (so far as I can see) that it was this government that accepted the force of the 'moral' argument for the Gurkhas, while all previous governments had not. It's a bit like overseas aid - I can bring myself to congratulate and thank the government for more than doubling our support for the poorest in the world, while still wishing that they had done even more because it is morally indefensible (but perhaps not practical politics) not to have done so.
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#60
"It was he who said we should offer residence to ALL THOSE (and their families) who fought for this country. The numbers could be enormous. Words and grandstanding are cheap; its actions that count."
It won't be a problem. We have amassed a couple of million people who do not deserve to be in this country. We can kick them out, and bring in these brave people who deserve our respect and to live in our country.
Oh, and it will reduce the imported Labour voting base too, which cannot be a bad thing.
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You got it in your first sentence... if any proof were needed.
There has been evidence ever since this Prime Minister walked into Downing Street that he had not a clue how to perform the task; had the faultiest of political antennae and worse; had a grudging and nasty streak which has been so beautifully unmasked by recent events.
Gordon Brown will go down in history as the man who plotted all his life to be Prime Minister but once he got there had not a clue what to do.
Daiy we are now given another example of how ill equipped the man is for the job; yet the evidence was there form the beginning.
The government of all the talents? people want leadership not debate...
The backing of Peter Hain...
The support for 42 day detention?
The support for ID cards
The non referendm on the EU constitution and the botched signing of it later..
The dithering over Northern Rock
The endless lists of non-deliverable targets...ending child poverty..in a recession?
His yearning to get back to the dispatch box and hand out billions like a minister handing out bread to his congregation.
His petulant rebuttals of gainsayers...
The surrounding himself with curry munching, beer swilling, football watching bully boys...
It was all there all the time but the BBC gave him the benefit of the doubt.
Its' a shame because it will be remembered that you supported this miscreant.
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Right, so James Brown can GIVE £665 million to Pakistan and £510 million to Afghanstan over the next 4 years but says we cannot aford a few Gurkhas. This man is just a fool and I see that Brown has made the number 1 mark in Downing Street petition. Have a look and put your name on it.
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And I thought Tony Blair was useless.
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RE: 123. sagamix
> yes that's an idea and, while we're talking about H,
...
> her bill sounds good (assuming it does what it says on
> the tin) and she was particularly eloquent in
> explaining it the other day - for example ... she has
> identified that, although women naturally live longer
> than men,
So, when women live longer than men, that's "natural",
> rich men live longer than poor women! - and
> not only has she identified that, she's going to do
> something about it
but when men live longer than women, that's a problem that must be fixed.
> what she'll be doing
> is increasing the lifespan of poorer women,
Although she has never shown the tiniest hint of an interest in extending the lifespan of men.
> no
> pussyfooting about with Harriet, is my point - direct,
> forceful communication going straight to the heart of
> what matters ... refreshing
No, "refreshing" is not the word. The appropriate word would be something like "sexist" or "bigoted", or maybe "vindictive". The "direct" part is right though. There's nothing subtle about Harman's prejudices.
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"It is proof, if any were needed, that away from the economy the prime minister is consistently misjudging issues."
Away from the economy, he's misjudging issues?!
You're having a laugh, right? Are you seriously trying to tell us that you, the chief political editor of the BBC, thinks that Brown has done a good job of managing the economy of this country?! My god... have you no idea what this idiot has done to this country? I assume you must have missed the budget last week??
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#123
If women, as statistics tell us, live longer than men and want "equality" (read "more equality than men" in Harperson's vocabulary) in the workplace, perhaps the government should raise the retirement age for women to match that of men, or even higher to account for the longer lifespan?
Thought not.
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Last year, just before the economic crisis broke, a head of steam was building for a leadership election. There wasn't really an obvious case for the change as the talk seemed to be about personalities rather than serious issues of policies and competence, but that's all changed now. It is clearly time that Gordon stepped down and brought the Brown/Blair era to a close.
In my view, it would be better if Gordon called an immediate general election so we can get it out of the way and get on with the job of straightening out the economy, but if there's a leadership campaign now, prior to 2010, at least we would have a new direction to consider from Labour rather than more of the same from somebody who (with his sidekick Blair) has let us down so badly ovcer the last 12 years, as Chancellor and as Leader...
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#126 "I for one say, lets be glad that he at least tends to ask the difficult questions in interviews. "
Hmm, have we been watching the same interviews.
Even Jon Sopel asks trickier questions than Nick....
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#129 sagamix
Love people who get nasty. Means you might be winning the argument.
My previous post gave my reasons behind the house price bubble - or not-bubble from your point of view. Interest rates were kept too low, too long based on biased inflation data. Private credit expansion has exploded in the last 12 years from under £500bn in 1997 to knocking on £1.4tn in 2008. The vast majority of that is mortgage finance.
Therefore, I would say it was reasonably safe to assume that a large proportion of that credit expansion went into private housing. So let's say that 80% of the increase in personal outstanding between 1997 and 2008 went into housing. That, by my calculations, comes to somehwere in the region of £720bn. That's around 150% of total personal credit outstanding when Labour came to power.
And with regards the 'shortage' of housing. Builders have practically stopped building houses - they simply can't sell them. So where is this 'shortage' that you are so keen to promote? I haven't seen too many queues, lately.
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dial a square @ 174
We have amassed a couple of million people who do not deserve to be in this country. We can kick them out, and bring in these brave people who deserve our respect and to live in our country. Oh, and it will reduce the Labour voting base too, which cannot be a bad thing
er, hardly ... there's a fair few bankers around but 2 million? ... don't think so! ... any case they vote overwhelmingly Clown, I'd have thought, so it would only help Lab
bald pogle @ 166
nice one! ... but derogatory nicknames for Gordon is a very crowded marketplace so not sure it's gonna fly
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Since the consensus here (yet again) is that Gordon Brown is, and never was up to the job of leading this great nation of ours, may I suggest that those of you visiting this Blog who wish to take a practical step towards ousting one of the worst Prime Minister's in British history, sign here:
http://tinyurl.com/dfrxm6
However, whilst it's heartening to see Parliament working for the Ghurkas (hear, hear), our Parliamentarians continue to let down the rest of us - who are sick and tired of this financially and morally bankrupt Government, and who just want a chance to vote for change. I don't much mind if we end up with another Labour Government, but I do care that we are now in the hands of little more than an incompetent Brownian Dictatorship - and I don't like it. Does anyone?
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@182
Even Ricky Boleto from Newsround asks trickier questions
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So Gordon tells us hes going to focus on the big isuues ... well allowing loyal soldiers right of residency seemed to have been a very big issue with the public who he is there to serve , or did he just get it wrong ....again ?
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Sorry Nick, but I find your comments unrealistic. Brown is a total failure, in tackling economic issues, as well as everything else.
I tried signing the Downing Street petition calling for his resignation, but guess what? ...no confirmatory email, so my name can't be added to the 32000+ names so far.
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/please-go/
Has anyone else had the same problem?
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Nick - your first sentence has too many words.
"It is proof, if any were needed, that away from the economy the prime minister is consistently misjudging issues."
There is no need for the "away from the eceonomy" part. Surely the outcome of the last 12 years has shown that.
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petitions.number10.gov.uk/UK-balance-sheet
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Rather ironic really , it takes a foreign army to defeat a British (fake) Leader. First time since William the Conqueror is it?
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165. At 10:55am on 30 Apr 2009, greatHayemaker wrote:
160
To true yellow, but I actually agree with Saga that we are too harsh on Nick. He is a Tory deep down, and perhaps over compensates whilst trying to be impartial. There is also a tendency to show the government in a better light than may be the case, but if he is trying to be impartial and is given only incompetence to work with, this can come accross as bias.
I for one say, lets be glad that he at least tends to ask the difficult questions in interviews.
===
Nick pales into insignificance when compared to the excellent Tom Bradby on ITN. HE asks the difficult questions and displays no sign of bias towards any political persuasion. It can be done.
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"Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson are both shrewd political strategists but are simply too busy to give day-to-day tactical advice. "
How do you know this? Or should I say what makes yo believe this to be true?
I would have thought that the opposite view would carry much more weight - how can people in such positions, cabinet ministers etc, have anything more important to do than to advise the PM on key policy issues?
I'm afraid I detect a somewhat pro-government twang to your blog these days Nick. It feels like "The government... I know they're crap, but here are some excuses". All carefully hidden as an undertone in the main text of course.
Why can we not tell it like it is - they have the opportunity to have the same mechanisms/advisers etc in place as every other government in history. If they do a worse job then the buck stops with them.
I would be interested in an unbiased view of the chances of an election before May next year. Will they go full-term and hope for an upturn or is there an element of 'this is out best shot at being a credible opposition'?
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Just to agree with novicedave - we should be careful what we wish for. A new leader may give them a chance at the next election.
Although the general expectation is that they can't expect the nation to put up with 2 successive unelected leaders and so a leadership change should trigger an election, that kind of sensible opinion doesn't seem to stop them doing whatever they want so far (they frequently support people who would have been expected to resign before they took power).
Imagine Harman as PM... oh my gawd. And struggling through until May next year. Eek. By 2010 men would be forming a men's lib front and start burning their jockstraps in public.
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#161 the discussion re 'people pleaser'
This is so wrong it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. That anyone should think that allowing the Ghurkas a right of residence is reduced to this!
Ask countless troops over the years what their opinion is of these brave and loyal men. In some cases they were sent in to fight before our troops went in because they were 'the best' we had.
As regards Brown's mention of cost - ugh I can almost smell the slime he crawled out of! This is no Prime Minister - take him away lest I throw up along with the rest of our true and loyal residents of England.
He did not 'get it wrong' - he has never got it right.
Prime Minister means - first man - someone who should know better!
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170 Sorry i missed a few commers and foolstops but you got the griff.Secondly you hum it i'll play it Another blair and brown HaterI expect after the next general election you will bemone the tory efforts to put right the wrongs this dipicable rabble have inflicted upon you.I can still hear the shouting of the last election we want tony we want tony by god you got him and his side kick of whome you now wish you hadent set eyes on never mind david will sort it all out again but remember to take the pain After all they did inherit a sound econamy from the torys then started to break it up bye gold pensions etc.
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blue matter @ 183
Love people who get nasty. Means you might be winning the argument
that's true and I guess I was being nasty (but only slightly!) so perhaps I am losing the argument - but I don't think so - all those things may very well be true (and thank you for making the effort) but a floor is effectively placed under the value of property by the fact that, as an investment, it generates rental income, and the yield you use to compute the capital value cannot get too out of line as stacked up against cash, equities and bonds - we've pretty much reached that floor now (at 2005 prices) and should soon see it stabilise and recover - although I guess there'll be an overshoot on the way down too, so let's say another 10 pc fall from here but no more - then up she goes ... if (perish the thought) you and I are still messing around here in 2012, we can see who was right, can't we?
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dial square, martin w, chris 911 (inter alia) re Harriet Harman
just can't believe how you guys can't see her qualities
saddens me
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173. At 11:22am on 30 Apr 2009, probablynogod wrote:
following your advice, i can be quite certain, as is my right, to believe people such as yourself, indeed lack intelligence.
for you to believe that this government/gordon brown has done anything so noble that contains thought through pragmatic reasoning, balanced with the moral argument, 'makes my point', perhaps had you listened to the reasoning given by gordon brown at PMQ's/HC debate, and assuming the possesion of basic intelligent thought, how does the cost figure of 1.4 billion (where did they pluck that number from), and the unreasonable conditions placed upon Gurkhas to allow residency, come into pragmatic reasoning,
as for the conservative government pre 1997 handover failing to preempt Gurkhas wishes to reside in the uk, is a bit of a couldv'e shouldv'e wouldv'e hindsight issue. unless you have evidentual facts that state they they we're aware of this issue and had flatly refused to reconise it, if so point me to it and i will happily apologise, i do take issue with the failure of all governments to renumerate the Gurkhas on an even footing.
As for your praise regarding this governments doubling support of the poor around the world, doubling the poor in this country due to gordon browns incompetence is more apt, many in this country will now be in need of that support paid for by the hard working wealth creators of the private sector. I'll assume you have no offensive un-essential material possessions or wealth. saint.... whoops forgot probablynogod.
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I hope Brown does hold on for a 2010 election. That should be enough time for the Lib Dems to run away with it.
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The Government really read things wrong on this one. They thought being tough on immigrants would pander to the majority, when the problem people hav with immigration is the fact the WRONG sort of people are being allowed into the country. Ghurkas are exactly the RIGHT sort of people that we should be letting in: people with loyalty to the country, not rabid Islamists who plot and scheme to overthrow our way of life, or career criminals who see and take advantage of a soft criminal justice system.
It would be interesting for someone from the John Major government to say what plans they had in place for Ghurkas after the handover of Hong Kong, because all we've got from Gordon Brown on this is "the Tories were worse", not even accepting that Labour have had 12 years in which to put right any Tory mistakes or policies they didn't agree with.
Currently the Ghurka issue throws up a number fo points (1) Gordon Brown is being poorly advised, (2) Blaming the "old" Tory government 12 years after the fact doesn't wash any more, (3) Yes be tough on immigration, but be tough in the right areas, (4) Nick Clegg has finally found a successful strategy to get into the news and increase his and his party's profile,(5) In the (increasingly unlikely) event of a hung Parliament, a Con-Lib government could work well.
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Gordon Brown is a pathetic Prime Minister, he can't lead nor get his policies right.
A Prime Minister is only as good as his Cabinet, but there's an added distraction.... they are all full of themselves and always right, thats why they never listen but always ready to learn from their mistakes - which they've all been doing for a long time and making no hey in the process.
They are always right and no one else knows better, and yet no one dare denounce that claiming a 88p bath plug was wrong the Minister should have been kicked out the Cabinet for 'taking the biscuit'!
The rot has truly got hold and it would be miraculous if they won the next election, but do they want to? With the big black hole and the country bankrupt they won't be able to blame the problems on the Tories... but it wasn't global that left the bank unregulated and the FSA sitting on their backsides.
Blair started the decline of trust not Gordon Brown... I blame the Ministers for not speaking out with their noses buried deep in the trough thinking of themselves and not the people they serve.
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I expect some has said it already but both Gordon and Arsenal lost. Is it in their stars and what happens this week.
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A number of posters have assumed that fighting on the British side during the World Wars was the same as fighting for Britain... This is not how it seemed to previous generations.
As Lord Macaulay observed, there was something about "England" that meant that in 1848, when the capitals of Europe were "running with blood" and the whole continent seemed to be descending into a return to the Dark Ages, "England" remained calm because of its constition and its history of improvement and progress.
In 1914 and 1939 the barbarity of 1848 returned, this time not as a street revolt, but as the state policy- notably of Germany. But Matthew Arnold had written of an "Anglo-Saxon contagion" as the world moved on from 1848, and Germany and the United States of America became galvanised into aggressive and expansionist powers -- and writers like the historian J.R. Green tried to reconnect the English with their barbarian and warrior forefathers.
Nevertheless when Winston Churchill called all of the global "British" community to "do their best" in the struggle to save "Christian Civilization", a struggle in which many people made "the ultimate sacrifice", most of the evidence indicates that those who did so were convinced that the whole world would be a much darker place if "the British" lost this struggle.
Many posters have also linked the Gurkha issue with immigration to this country, but in many cases - if not most- the tide of immigration reflects a stalling of the kind of tide of global improvement and progress that people like Lord Macaulay believed in. Long before the present economic collapse, it was apparent that the World, in Mr Brown's phrase, had "no road map"... And we are left with a legacy of post-imperial institutions ( like the UN, the IMF, and the World Bank) and post-imperial problems- like the current problems in Nepal and its Maoist government..
Historians have argued for a long time about the "push and pull factors" behind migration... but like the "Boll Weevil" most people are looking for a home --- when they leave the place that does not serve as a home anymore.
Cass
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My fellow voters be careful. There is real danger here. The Labour Party appears to be moving to a position where they will offer Gordon Brown as their sacrificial lamb in order to save their skins at the next election. "It was all his fault!" Be aware of the new tactic. They know they are on the way out, so they seek to palm all their wickedness off onto GB. In this way they hope to convince the gullible British public that NuLiebor was somehow 'conned' by this GB fellow and they are really just a bunch of good guys who were misled.
The communist government suffocating this country does not operate as a one-man band. They are all of them wicked, destructive, anti-Christian and anti-British.
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