The 'special partnership'
"I'm just doing my job."
That's the prime minister's response to those who suggest he's come to Washington to get a sprinkling of the magic dust that surrounds the new president.
Gordon Brown is naturally delighted to be the first European leader to be granted access to the White House though Japan's Prime Minister won the race to be first into the Oval Office.
His policy objective is to secure President Obama's engagement in developing what he's dubbed "a global new deal" to combat the threat of depression. So far, his officials say, the new team at the White House has been too busy developing domestic policy to worry much about British ideas for an international economic plan to be unveiled at the London meeting of world leaders in April.
The Brown plan involves cross border co-operation on financial regulation, the closing of tax havens and the reform of financial institutions like the IMF. In short, they'll involve America ceding more power to the developing economies and allowing others to raise questions about the behaviour of Wall Street institutions. It's not yet clear if the Obama administration is ready for that.
Today's meeting is brief - just half an hour followed by a working lunch with officials. On landing in Washington we learnt that there is to be no formal news conference. Questions will be taken by the leaders in the Oval Office - perhaps, rather oddly, at the beginning of it.
What, if anything, does that tell us?
Old Washington hands say that the new administration is still bedding in. When you ask what the administration's policy is on the world trade talks you discover that they have yet to have their trade negotiator approved by Congress. So far, the president has only had one news conference since taking office.
Obama's focus is still on the domestic. Tomorrow's presidential schedule includes visits to the Departments of the Interior and Transportation. Oh, and the Boy Scouts of America are visiting the Oval Office.
"Finally it tells us that today's meeting cannot be the equivalent of the Camp David "Colgate moment" at which Bush & Blair bonded. It is just a first step, albeit a significant one, in establishing what the White House now likes to call the 'special partnership' between Britain and America.
PS By a happy coincidence today's talks at the White House coincides with the broadcast of my Radio 4 programme on the Prime Minister who lost America - Lord North. The message telling him that he'd lost the battle of Yorktown and, with it, a continent took 5 weeks to reach Downing Street.
I'm 
© MMX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~45~RS~)
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Travels all that way for 30 minutes of "stardust". About the same time as the President spends with his hairdresser. It might have been better to wait until he had something of substance to discuss. Like Tony Blair his commitment to Global warming is never affects his personal behaviour. Charter a 777 for a quick photo opportunity with the stars.
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I understand that the President has a pressing engagement with the Boy Scouts.
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Some suggetions for question time prior to that half hour meeting:
-for Brown: what about subletting that constituency office?
-for Obama: why he thinks that the US made UK banks sell 125% UK mortgages to UK customers (since it's all the US's fault)
-for Obama again: why he thinks the US made Brown run a budget deficit when the economy was growing above trend prior to the crisis (again, since it's all the US's fault)
-and now the serious one for both: will they refrain from leaning on their central banks to run with very accomodating policies when inflation at some stage picks up again since inflation will help reduce the debt to GDP ratio (and politicians pensions are indexed).
PS Who will put that pathetic hand on the other guy's shoulder, the ultimate cringe gesture that polticians now so often make to try convey they are all in control.
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Gordon Brown's sole aim in this trip is for his own political benefit.
He doesn't care one iota about the British people. Why should he? He wasn't even elected by us. A total disgrace. This man has left Britian the worst prepared nation to deal with the recession. And now he thinks he can fool us by getting some sort of endorsement by Obama. How pathetic
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Did Churchill sublet his constituency office?
Did Chuchill one year write in a newpaper about sterling and a later year rubbish an MP from the opposition discussing the fall of sterling?
Did Churchill one year say he would resist a paneuropean financial regulator and only 2 years later say that he has been arguing for more heavy-handed regulation in the past ten years?
I haven't read Churchill's bios, but I'm surprised if he made as many 180s (or u-turns) in his life as Brown already has.
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Gordon Brown has half an hour to explain the collpase in his domestic poll ratings to a newly elected President...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tories-most-trusted-with-economy-1635888.html
Does anyone really believe Obama gives a monkey's about Gordon Brown?
Call an election
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That photographer got himself a great shot (see above).
So Brown needs the make-up artist following a flight to the states coming from the east. That tells you a lot about his fitness since it tends to be less tiring to fly along with the sun than against it. The make-up artist also tells you a lot about the spin machine working at full pelt and about Brown's vanity.
Mr Robinson, were the reporters from the UK allowed to watch the papering of the cracks, or did you receive similar treatment on the aircraft?
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This may be a "Brownie" point for Downing Street which they hope will revive Brown's flagging popularity but apparently the American press don't even mention the Brown visit.
Everyone here I speak to thinks Brown is doint his utmost to manipulate but I doubt whether Obama (the "novice") will be swayed or impressed. Obama will have his own agenda and he will call the shots.
Brown hopes it dovetails with his.
(You can buy busts of Churchill from Blenheim Palace!).
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Nick,
In the spirit of your ongoing shameless plugging of your radio show....a comparison of Lord North and Gordon.
Lord North 'lost' America and didn't realise for 5 weeks - Gordon lost the UK months ago and still doesn't realise.
After all the fuss over Goodwin's pension and Gordon's 'anger' about that and anything else he thinks he ought to be angry about to try and reflect the mood of the nation.....how much is this little jaunt costing us, the taxpayer? If he had any other reason to go and talk to El Presidente, than to bask in his reflected glory, I'd be less cynical.
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Quite brilliant political cartoon in this morning's Times, playing on the old "poodle" analogy, with Obama as the lean, sleek, greyhound... and Gordon, standing on a box as the poodle doing... well, doing what dogs tend to do when they greet each other.
Made me laugh anyway... :-)
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A probably hopeless attempt to summarise this trip:
Brown has been caught red-handed during class (he can't run the economy) and on the final day of term has run to another school to get one more attempt at sitting the exam (and failing at it again).
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Will Obama's 'Gold dust' rub of on brown or will brown's 'brown' dust stink up Obama?
but love the commentary from US media, 'Britain's cursed prime minister...'
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Is this the best you can come up with, Nick?Downing Street aides are no doubt love-bombing and brow-beating the travelling UK press corps to spin something nice for the folks back home. But it looks like Brown's 'Audacity of Hype' Washington tour is turning out to be a damp squib as I predicted here.
http://theorangepartyblog.blogspot.com/2009/03/browns-audacity-of-hype.html
No-one in the US or in the UK gives a monkeys about this dead man sleepwalking into Capitol Hill, while his fag-end of a government collapses around his ears.
They are struggling in the real world of unemployment, recession and making ends meet. Global grandstanding cuts no ice with voters.
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So Gordo's gone to America in an attempt to jump start his failing career, yet Obama clearly wants to keep him at arms length... Perhaps they're not too happy with Brown blaming his decade of economic incompetence on the Americans after all??
Of course, I fully expect this will be spun into his 'Saved the World' mantra by the time the compliant media folk such as yourself Nick, get around to reporting it on tonight's tv broadcasts. Or, are you actually going to ask Obama the question that so many here want you to: "Mr President, do you agree with Mr Brown that all the World's economic problems & especially those in Great Britain are because of America and the American people?"
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Lord North's communications system was lightning fast compared to Brown's.
For years now the British people have been telling Brown that he's rubbish and that he's lost the next General Election - and it's yet to register.
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Is there a precedent for this kind of diplomatic and political treatment?
If the questions are informal and before the "talks" does that mean that Obama wants what he says to Brown to stay within the room?
How long before it leaks? Where's Mandy?
Please make sure you get pictures after his visit...if he looks battered and bruised or there is a false smile we'll know exactly
I'll pass on the Lord North thingy thanks, hope that you enjoy your jolly
Looking forward to some in depth political comment after you've asked about Harriet, and the briefings from Ed Balls and Darling whilst Crash has been out of the country.
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Gordon Brown must be the most detested PM of all time. This guy will lead Labour to the political wilderness for the next 12 years at least!!!
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http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=1199
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I hear that Brown isn't going to get his precious propaganda photo op of standing at a podium next to Obama after all.
He has more pressing issues such as the boy scouts of America presenting him with some paper cuttings or something.
But if there is a press conference Nick can you ask this one question alone -
Mr Brown, back at home you like to repeat at the start of every sentence "It/what started in America" yet you haven't today for some reason. Why is that?
Let him spin on that one.
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Brown is an embarrassment to Obama - why does he want to associate himself with one of the architects of the "age of irresponsibility"?
I don't blame the US for giving Brown equal priority as the group of Boy Scouts.
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His policy objective is to secure President Obama's engagement in developing what he's dubbed "a global new deal" to combat the threat of depression.
So far, his officials say, the new team at the White House has been too busy developing domestic policy to worry much about British ideas ...
... for an international economic plan to be unveiled at the London meeting of world leaders in April.
So why have Brown and his numerous officials made the trip? Obama isn't briefed as admitted by his aides. Surely he hasn't spent all that taxpayers money just for reasons of self promotion?
Perhaps you'll ask him on our behalf Nick?
When framing your question; first consider how many private companies would pay for a large team of execs to travel business (first?) class to the States for a 30 minute meeting with someone who isn't briefed?
By the way, if you're struggling to make conversation with the PM on the flight back -your bloggers have made several worthy suggestions in response to your 'Churchill' post.
Go on, be a sport; just for us.
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This partnership is so special that Obama can only spare half an hour to speak to our PM, who has travelled 3000 odd miles to see him.
Says it all really.
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Nick
So this is it.
"It may not be the end
It may not be the beginning of the end, but it is the end of the beginning."
"Never have so many owed so much to so few"
Can I be the first to say "Four more years" for Gordon, but then again perhaps no.
Call an election and ee what the people's opinion is
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If Obama agrees to anything suggested by Brown it will be because it coincides with narrow USA interests - end of story.
Stand by for the spin cycle. USA protectionist measures will be repackaged and sold by Gordon as part of a Brown-led internationally agreed anti-protectionist programme.
Bit like the repacking of sub-prime loans as triple A rated Special Investment Vehicles.
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Obama is not going to listen to someone who has run an economy on empty. HE is interested in sorting out Americas problems. He will not align with anyone at present and especially with Brown who has spent all his time denying that our current economic woes have anything to do with him. Brown has blamed all our problems on the US, none of it has anything to do with him. If you don't know how you got there, what mistakes were made, how can you fix it?
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Econoce -- great play on words. "Papering the cracks".
Nick quotes GB in his earlier release :
"I think the impression he has given of America to the world is transformative, because he is a black man who has won the presidency, who is living in the White House that was built by slaves."
Sincerely hope Gordon doesn't say this to the US press corps. Not particularly PC and if they are really picky they will point out that Obama sees himself as "mixed race", along with Tiger Woods and many others.
Finally as many have said, incredible waste of taxpayers money -- for a 30 minute meeting. Goodness knows what the CO2 impact of the trip is but from GB's point of view gives him the chance to skip another PMQ where no doubt bank losses, the City Minister and the massive funding will be high on the agenda.
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'Just doing my job' my posterior. He's there to try and save his bacon! In these days of viseo conferencing and tight money surely he could have stayed at home and skyped The President. It would have saved a lot of taxpayer's money. This is a cosmetic exercise in all but name!
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#7 RobinJD wrote:
Does anyone really believe Obama gives a monkey's about Gordon Brown?
###
Oh, yes - he will want to be as close to Brown as possible.
The UK is the US gateway not only to Europe but to a lot of the rest of the world and its economy.
A relation of mine worked in the US embassy. The US relied heavily on the UK to keep political and financial links to other parts of the world, especially those that the US was publicly not speaking to.
And it was always a balanced relationship. A real partnership
These days it involves the rest of Europe too, but still routed through London.
What the press report as the exciting headline bit, and actually what happens behind the scenes is very different.
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Is he hoping for a second Marshall Plan. Someone should tell him that this time the US is in the same boat. Does Super Gordon have the authority to talk on behalf of the other European leaders or is he paddling his own boat? Maybe he should wait until April when all the leaders will be in London (or is it Watford?)
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I doubt whether anything Brown will say to Obama will be of use or even interest to the latter except that Obama might learn not to follow Brown's policies. On a lighter note I hope Obama doesn't get Brown and the US Scouts muddled up.......
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Fine, so those not engaged in politics might be impressed with Gordon Brown, however, the reality of the situation is quite different.
The US has never and probably will never give a damn about anyone else unless there's something big in it for them (they want to be the senior partner) - and yes, that includes 'Great' Britain.
Unless Gordon Brown can offer Obama a way to get the US back from China easily (the economy that is) or some other ingenious tip, Gordon Brown is simply there for the photo-op.
Another example of GB in cloud cuckoo land - who on earth comes up with his spin?
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Obama's administration obviously wish to listen to Brown's views. Since they both sit on the centre left of politics I daresay Obama wants to facilitate some support for our Prime Minister. These are serious times and the President wishes to have a meeting with a serious politician.
All else on here, as ever, is just bile and spite. Politics is simply not just about the personality of one man. The outpouring of hatred toward Brown on this blog is ridiculous.
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No Gordon, we're not stupid! Perhaps you could let the rest of the cabinet know!
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Yesterday Trevor Kavanagh was fulminating in The Sun about how the regulatory framwork put in place by Gordon Brown was what brought the house down. Unlike in Australia where 'Brown's light hand of regulation' was mericfully scorned. The result as Trevor pointed out is four major Aussie banks with Triple A ratings, even in the teeth of the credit crunch.
Sensing that the heat from the Murdoch press is landing heavier punches than the Tories, entirely predictably Mr Brown put Darling into bat in this morning's Telegraph fessing up that regulation could and should have been tighter. Almost an apology!
It is not President Obama that Mr Brown should be courting at this juncture,it is his fellow American citizen Mr Murdoch. I sense that the game really is up this time for Prime Minister Brown.
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We all know why he's there Nick. He needs the Obama glitter. What a sad sight to behold in the dying days of the New labour administration.
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Just been on the Internation Herald Tribune's website. This left of center paper doesn't carry a Brownama story today but carried one a day or so ago.
More interestingly, the economist that Brown cheerleaders such as the BBC and The Guardian are particular fond of, Krugman, has written a column today that explains that US consumers have started to save money again and that this will weigh heavily on any recovery. This is the piece of analysis that both Brown and Obama miss out on and why they will ruin us with stimulus=deficit spending because they seem to think this is a banking problem that can be fixed with renewed lending and borrowing.
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"What, if anything, does that tell us?"
That the President has far more important things on his agenda than a "state visit" from a small nation somewhere beyond the periphery of his vision?
That he doesn't have time to indulge the vanity of his visitor?
That nothing of substance can be achieved in thirty minutes?
"I'm just doing my job"
I thought UPS, DHL or (perish the thought) the respective postal services were quite able to deliver a valuable item without the need to send an overpaid courier boy.
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"Gordon Brown is naturally delighted to be the first European leader to be granted access to the White House though Japan's Prime Minister won the race to be first into the Oval Office."
As his side-kick so elegantly put it: So what? Accordingly to an American commentor [an academic if my memory is correct] on the BBC news last night America's focus is moving away from Europe anyway.
Brown is not only a menace in the UK context he is an embarrassment in the international one.
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He must get more time at his dentist's than he's getting in the President's office. Obama must have been advised that this is yesterday's man and there is no point wasting too much time on him when it's his successor he will need to deal with. As far as Brown building a special relationship with Obama is concerned, that is a non starter, after all, compared with Brown, Obama is a " novice ", it's just that he carries a deal more charisma and clout than Brown and his dour bumbling ever will. Far from enhancing Brown's image, the indifference of the US will show him in a very different light.
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Brown's good at making enemies - it's his forte.
But blaming the US for the uK's economic woes will go down in history as one of the great mistakes of UK politics.
He will get everything he deserves from Obama. And, hopefully, more.
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Nick
How much has this little jaunt cost the taxpayer?
The "business" part of this (if there is any) could have been done by a small group of officials going on a commercial flight backed up with a teleconference from the media suite at 10 Downing Street.
This is therefore politics, posturing for the media, nothing more. I can understand that Gordon is so desperate that he places high priority on being seen in the company of Obama. But do the lobby journalists enjoy the thrill of being whisked across the Atlantic, and not care that you're being spun, or does the press pack secretly agree it's all a waste of money?
I calculate that there are 461 days to 3rd June 2010, the last possible date for a General Election, unless Gordon cancels this. Still a lot that the government can screw up in that time...
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GB would travel to disneyworld if he felt a photo opportunity with Mickey Mouse might align him with younger voters. Maybe then we could lower the voting age to 5 as a one off turnout booster.
Still at least he's keeping an aircraft flying and saving a few jobs.
At least the BBC can fly a team of journo's in for a couple of days to cover his 30 mins with St Barak, (saving a couple more jobs - although theres no need for that Justin Webb bloke)
Hasn't anyone noticed that Nick doesn't appear to read the comments?
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re 14
The Americans actually can do irony.
Its not "Brown the cursed PM" its "Brown the curr-sed PM" They, like everyone I meet, cannot stand his know-all attitude plus his inability to admit errors and that he keeps blaming them for his own monumental incompetance over 12 years.
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I predict in a few weeks that not only will this recession still be blamed on America, but Brown's own plummeting support here will be blamed on America too. "If Obama had been more supportive of the saviour of the world, then Brown would be doing better..." etc etc etc...
America has NO allies, ONLY interests. It is NOT in Obama's interest to prop up a major contributor to the economic collapse and a guy that is a loser.
As I understand it, Obama is no Anglophile owing to the fact that one of his direct Kenyan Ancestors (great grandfather I think) was butchered by English troops that were putting down an uprising.
It looks like this will be the second time that Brown goes to Washington and is barely noticed.
Blair spoke to their congress and sucked up to them marvelously. It would have been an added bonus if he had spoken truth whilst he was there too, but he did wow them. (well when they were used to Bush's primitive use of language, Blair was a master of oratory by comparison) Now they have a comparison of Brown and Obama... Brown cannot look anything but weak, old, out of touch and frankly, embarrassing by comparison.
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#34 Pete Holly
"Obama's administration obviously wish to listen to Brown's views. Since they both sit on the centre left of politics I daresay Obama wants to facilitate some support for our Prime Minister. These are serious times and the President wishes to have a meeting with a serious politician."
What a joke. Could have been written by Mandelson.
1) Obama's administration have no intention of listening seriously to Brown. Why would they? He's a major player part of the group that caused the current crisis and nothing he has done in the last 6 months has made a measurable difference to bank lending.
2) Neither sit on the centre left. Obama is bang in the centre (that's why he won an election - narrowly, there was no landslide!) and Brown is probably to the right of most of the current shadow cabinet.
3) If Obama thought Brown was a serious politician with something to contribute he'd give him more than half an hour.
ps
I don't hate Brown, I just think he's hopelessly out of his depth.
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@36, "Sensing that the heat from the Murdoch press is landing heavier punches than the Tories, entirely predictably Mr Brown put Darling into bat in this morning's Telegraph fessing up that regulation could and should have been tighter. Almost an apology!"
Almost, but not quite. Additionally, this government are still blaming everyone else. They are blaming the banks and the regulators more than themselves.
This is like the farm hand blaming the chickens (for being tasty) and the fox (for being hungry) when he encouraged the fox to go into the chicken pen.
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Perhaps Gordon will to use the rest of his day to see if he can get his foot in the door as an after dinner speaker. After all, he'll need something to do when he's voted out.
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Doorman: "Mr President, may I introduce Prime Minister Gordon Brown"
Obama: "Thanks. Who he?"
Brown: "Good morning Mr President. Any chance of a quick, global grand bargain?"
Obama: "No chance. Next."
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Meanwhile back at the range Darling starts to talk about COLLECTIVE responsibility.
Well, it's clear what Labour's next spin attempt will be now that prospect for a Brown bounce type 2 are diminishing. The media will repeatedly be told that the conservatives and the lib dems didn't propose a different regulatory framework when Brown introduced his tripartite setup, did not explicitly oppose Brown's resistance to a paneuropean financial regulator and did not openly distance themselves from other government policies that contributed to the crisis.
So the opposition is at fault for not openly rejecting government policy rather than that the government should be held accountable for the result of its poor stewardship. Well, if voters think that suffices for giving Brown another chance, they deserve no better.
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34#
"The President wants to meet with a serious politician".... (but New Labour didnt have any..)
Yeah right.... ROTFLMAO. Serious politician, my foot.
Gordon, a "serious" politician?
He's so serious, Obama's only seeing him for 30 minutes. He'd probably spend more time walking the White House dog!
Seriously dangerous to our current - and future - economic well being more like!!!
Biggest laugh I've had all morning
Thanks Pete!!!! :-)
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Brown isn't just seeing Obama today, he's speaking to a joint session of Congress tomorrow. Not every PM gets to do that, so his stock there must be reasonably high.
In fact, their policies on the financial crisis have been fairly similar: stabilise the banking system (mostly done under Bush in the US, but with considerable Democratic prodding); stimulate the economy by spending; and half-hearted inadequate measures to get banks lending again.
On this last, each needs the other to make nationalisation acceptable at home, but I'm not sure they're really listening. Brown also needs Obama to make deficits to look respectable, to stop the pound falling too far.
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For half an hour's chat, Gordon should learn to use teleconferencing technology - he could also address congress the same way.
Think of the costs, think of the carbon footprint - shame on you Gordon!
PS Airforce 1 isn't any cleaner or cheaper and I don't see Barack using cheaper ways to get around either
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#34 PeteHolly
All else on here, as ever, is just bile and spite. Politics is simply not just about the personality of one man. The outpouring of hatred toward Brown on this blog is ridiculous.
Could the reason be that he is Captain of the ship and therefore shoulders the responsibility for running into the rocks; and prior to that he was the navigator who charted the course?
To carry the analogy further - could it be that the reason there is so much bile and spiteaimed in his direction is that instead of going down with his ship he is shoving the passengers (a.k.a.taxpayers, savers and pensioners) aside to be first in the lifeboat?
If I was Fred the Shred, I wouldn't waste energy and time justifying my pension settlement; I'd just respond
"After you Mr Brown"
After all, what's a few million in a pension pot relative to what our PM is squandering?
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I'm not into the nuances of this but 'special partnership' sounds like a downgrade from 'special relationship'' to this blogger.
Which would only be correct, since the Basra and Afghan misadventures, the Americans seem to have become quite disillusioned with us.
Which was always the danger in our politicians obsession with trying to punch above your weight, now the price is being paid in a diminished status in US eyes.
I think President Obama wants to see a coherent Europe pulling its weight on the world stage but Europe currently lacks a clear political nexus - which unfortunately is where Tony Blair comes back into play - as President of Europe.
Political Europe does need clear, unambigous leadership - and it just so happens that Mr. Blair is the person with the appropriate status and experience and is now available.
That should not be construed as any sort of endorsement - it just recognises the reality of the current situation.
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My original comment sees to have disappeared:
How much of our money is Bottler spending just to get photos for his album to show his kids in a couple of years' time?
Obama is not going to listen to that loser when he will be speaking to (elected) Prime Minister Cameron in just over a year.
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peteholly says "The outpouring of hatred toward Brown on this blog is ridiculous".
Perhaps peteholly should realise that the hatred towards the Labour government generally and Brown in particular is genuine and felt by millions of taxpayers.
This phoney deluded man has ruined this country with his incompetent performance as chancellor and cowardly and incompetent performance as PM.
Nick, It is such a pleasure to see you withdrawing almost daily from your hero Brown, and I even noticed a slight shift away from Brown by his other pal Andrew Marr. The writing must really be on the wall if his most trusted journalists are pulling away from him and Labour.
Like others I would implore you to ask the PM if he is still of the view that all the UK problems were caused by the USA.
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Another back at the range news item:
Northern Rock reported a pre-tax loss of 1.35 billion not-so-sterling pounds today, with impairments contributing a negative 894 million. All the US's fault obviously, but hitting UK government debt nonetheless.
Maybe ask Obama why the US let Mr Wanles(s?), that famous government adviser, sit on the belly-up Rock's board?
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The elected meets the unelected.
Wonder if Brown will tell him that its no time for a novice.
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How embarassing for the UK, to have this pathetic lame duck as a 'representative'.
At least we can be confident that obama will be fully aware of how much brown is hated by the public, and wont put too much store by anything he says.
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thatotherguy2 @ 36
For business reasons, (what other reason could there be) Murdoch seems to have turned on Brown via his various media outlets.
So, Murdoch foot-soldier Trevor Kavanagh fulminates in The Sun about how the regulatory framework put in place by Gordon Brown was what brought the house down.
Only it was not.
Somebody who does know what he is talking about is Dan Atkinson, who writes on economic matters in the MoS.
Dan correctly identifies the 'Big Bang' in the City of London in 1986 as being at the root of this economic catastrophe in England.
As Dan states, this is where the seeds of financial destruction were sowed.
PS. There are huge advantages to being politically independent, in that it allows you to think about these matters without being trammelled within some political dogma.
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#46 purpledogzz
"It looks like this will be the second time that Brown goes to Washington and is barely noticed."
Too right. A quick scan shows that none of the main US media websites (TV or print) are even mentioning Brown's visit on their main pages.
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While Gordon Brown has been away his mice have been letting him down almost immediately. First of all Harriet Harman makes a ridiculous statement about the court of public opinion which would also have ensnared Jacqui Smith, The Balls and The Speaker of The House Of Commons but we also have Alistair Darling infuriating him by admitting and apologising for mistakes in bank regulation totally blasting out of the water his long established false claim that it was global guv and nothing to with us!
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He is just doing his job eh? Wish he did it better ..
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34 wrote:
"Obama's administration obviously wish to listen to Brown's views. Since they both sit on the centre left of politics I daresay Obama wants to facilitate some support for our Prime Minister. These are serious times and the President wishes to have a meeting with a serious politician.
All else on here, as ever, is just bile and spite. Politics is simply not just about the personality of one man. The outpouring of hatred toward Brown on this blog is ridiculous."
The first two sentences I can accept aside from the assertion that The President wants to support The Prime Minister. He knows full well that Gordon Brown's days are numbered and that quite soon he will need to build up a relationship with David Cameron. Any support he gives will be very temporary and not worth it's weight in gold. As far as everything else on here being bile and spite aside from what you write I don't think so. The PM invites criticism by way of his sheer arrogance and his continued squirming out of admitting any kind of shared blame for our present predicament. At least Alistair Darling has done the right thing and had the good grace to offer an apology for loose regulation, an admission apparently which has infuriated the absent Prime Minister because it has ripped the rug from under his feet. God help poor Darling when his boss returns.
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#43 Badger
461 days and counting.
Much as I want to see the back of this odious man, I'm not one of those calling for an immediate election.
Just as the little bit of paper waved on return from Munich was hailed as "peace in our time", the fact is that Britain - and the Chamberlain administration - was in no position to go to war against Hitler.
The next few months gave us the breathing space to equip ourselves ready to face the fight. It also meant hanging on to a highly disliked Prime Minister, whose very policy of appeasement had laid us so low, until such a time that a true leader could emerge, with the means to face down the aggressor.
This is a better analogy for the present predicament. A disliked PM who has done more than his fair share in leading us into crisis, and who continues to plunge us deeper into the mire. Yet our two-and-a-half party system has not thrown up a credible alternative, someone able to lead us and hve the means to take us out of this crisis.
To replace the PM at this time could be like declaring war on Hitler in 1938.
It is time for a grassroots movement to overhaul our "democracy" and looks to a solution to the real issues.
Audit the banks. Quantify the toxic debt. Encourage savers. Reduce the size of the state. Replace the dead wood.
I just hope we can survive until next June.
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I suspect Brown's mantra most of last year "That it all began in America" has not been forgotten. Obama may well be setting him up for his own domestic agenda's resonance.
He will have discussed The UK and Brown at great length with Bush and others.
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PeteHolly
All else on here, as ever, is just bile and spite. Politics is simply not just about the personality of one man. The outpouring of hatred toward Brown on this blog is ridiculous.
............................................
You are obviously a Labour supporter and I respect your views, but let me ask you this.
Would you feel the same way if the pension you had paid into all your life was rapidly going down the tubes?
Would you feel the same way if you couldn't get a mortgage for love nor money - even if you had a superb credit rating?
Would you fel the same way if you suddenly found yourself redundant through no fault of your own?
Would you feel the same way if the house you had paid for was about to be repossessed?
This is why we despise Gordon Brown. The people who contribute to this blog are decent law abiding people. We have paid our dues, and this is what we get in return - and not even a hint of an apology.
Get the picture?
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DO YOU HAVE THE FAINTEST?
It’s Barrack’s time
He’ll only give you half an hour
You stand in line, he’ll see the scouts
after Scots so dour
But on the news in Blighty they will show the
photo call
Fly the press around the world to
Barrack Time
But say a prayer
Pray for the rest of us
In Washington it’s hard,
but when the meeting’s done
There’s a world outside your window
And it’s a world of dread and fear
Where the only credit flowing is so hard to get and dear
And the cash till bells that ring there
Are the clanging chimes of Broon
But tonight God’ll be on the news with you
But there’s not a snowball’s chance in hell
we’ll fall for it
We’ve heard it all before, you're full of it
(Oooh) The money’s down the drain
But you’re doing it again
Do you have the faintest clue at all?
As for you, you’re useless, says everyone
As for us, we know just what you have done
Do you have the faintest clue at all
Save the world, save the world, save the world
Please Obama, give me some more time
Save the world
Please Obama, give me some more time
Save the world
Please Obama, give me some more time
Save the world
Please Obama, give me some more time
Save the world
Please Obama, give me some more time
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The important question to ask about the "special relationship" is whether or not it is worth the price, which in recent years has been heavy in terms of blood and gold.
It is inevitable that such a partnership, where the two sides are so unequal, should be one sided.
It is true that the US did eventually come to the aid of the UK in world war 2. But only after they themselves had been a attacked, and it had become clear, as a result of the efforts of the British alone, and later the Soviets, that the Nazis were not going to get the walk over many had expected.
For the first two years the US was content to make lots of money by selling arms to the combatants.
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#59 Econoce
Northern Rock reported a pre-tax loss of 1.35 billion not-so-sterling pounds today, with impairments contributing a negative 894 million. All the US's fault obviously, but hitting UK government debt nonetheless.
...............................................
Interesting. Does anyone know if NR have repaid any monies to the taxpayer, who so generously helped them out when they were in the poo?
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So the big idea to end the global recession is now to close tax havens. Can someone please explain what this interference in the tax arrangements of sovereign countries is supposed to achieve?
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"On landing in Washington we learnt that there is to be no formal news conference. Questions will be taken by the leaders in the Oval Office - perhaps, rather oddly, at the beginning of it.
What, if anything, does that tell us? "
I think that tells us that the American Media would have the guts to ask Brown real questions, unlike the BBC, and that's the last thing he wants to deal with.
Imagine a Fox reporter asking him something like:
"You were in charge of regulation in the UK for the 12 years leading up to the collapse of your institutions that you were supposed to be regulating. You also didn't even bother to read the multi-billion dollar bank bailout contracts in your country. You were also never elected. What gives you the right to tell us what to do?"
Brown won't allow real questions because he knows he'd be shown up for the negligent idiot that he is.
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#6
"I haven't read Churchill's bios, but I'm surprised if he made as many 180s (or u-turns) in his life as Brown already has."
Nah, he just kept swapping parties!
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peteholly @34 wrote:
"Obama's administration obviously wish to listen to Brown's views. Since they both sit on the centre left of politics I daresay Obama wants to facilitate some support for our Prime Minister. These are serious times and the President wishes to have a meeting with a serious politician."
Crikey - I didn't see that one on LabourList...
"The outpouring of hatred toward Brown on this blog is ridiculous."
No it's not. It's heartfelt. And sincere. And widespread throughout the country - as he will find out if he ever has the guts to call an election.
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#30 gurubear
what delusional newlabour pills have you been swallowing.
there is nothing balanced about the US/UK relationship.
there is no joint extradition treaty - hence the Natwest three were deported to the US and are now in gaol there...they would never have been put on trial here.
Thatcher refused to support Reagan's invasion of Grenada and I seem to remember Hague being less than sympatheitc towards Thatcher's invasion of the Falklands.
the very idea that Obama thinks this is anything more than it is; Gordon Brown attempting to grab some glamour points, is a total joke.
Call an election
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#62 John Constable
"Dan correctly identifies the 'Big Bang' in the City of London in 1986 as being at the root of this economic catastrophe in England."
Nice try. But blaming all our current woes on something that happened 23 years ago just won't wash.
You might just as well blame the invention of the computer (which allows all these dodgy trades and financial instruments to take place), or the invention of the railways which allowed all these traders to commute to the city and Canary Wharf.
While there were clearly a number of changes in the increasingly complex financial system over the 60 years since the end of WWII which contributed to the mess we are in, the fact remains that Gordon Brown has been in political charge of the UK financial system for the last 11 1/2 years.
He not only presided over the excesses of the last decade, he actively promoted them:
"Not just a light touch but a limited touch".
No, Gordon IS responsible. The buck stops with him.
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#19
"Gordon Brown must be the most detested PM of all time. This guy will lead Labour to the political wilderness for the next 12 years at least!!!"
Are you suggesting that the next (Tory?) government will become so unpopular that it will have to resign 1/3rd of it's way through their 3rd term?!
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Nick
Surely this visit can only be seen as a huge snub to Brown?
The Obama team have purposefully stripped away everything that Brown wanted from this visit.
He is now has important as the Boy Scouts?
They are fully aware of how important this is for Brown by his constant use of Obama’s name.
Obama has not reached out to help he is just standing coldly by as Brown makes a fool of himself sucking up trying to alter public opinion at home.
He makes Brown look like an attention seeking child whose behaviour must be ignored.
This is pay back for something and there is the real story.
It makes me as embarrassed to be British as when Bush humiliated Blair with "Yoh Blair".
I believe this trip is a huge mistake as it shows that Brown is truly finished even in his closest ally's eyes.
If Brown dressed up in a scout's uniform he may get more attention.
He really has to GO.
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Let's face it, whatever way be said or spun on his behalf, Brown's single objective is to try to boost his collapsed poll ratings by associating himself with (as you rightly said) the world's biggest celeb. Generating a new world order in finance? Getting the US on side for a Brown-saves-the-world scheme at the G20? All irrelevant. The only thing Brown cares about is getting Brown back into Downing St. And it is a forlorn hope too. We know it, Brown knows it, Obama and his crew know it too.
Given the circumstances, I think it is rather polite, in fact excessively so, of Obama to go along with Brown's game. Brown is a loser. At best he carries about 15% of the UK adult population with him. He will be gone in 15 months, maybe less. He is an irrelevancy.
I predict Brown will come back to the UK with a picture or two and a couple of platitudes from Mr President. And that's it. I predict it will be spun up to much more, but the substantial content of this meeting, indeed the whole Brown-Obama relationship will be precisely nil.
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it just gets better....
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5837571.ece
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Before I go windsurfing for the remainder of the afternoon, I'll leave you with a sensible but depressing post that compares 3 economies at the start of their meltdowns:
Japan UK US
(1985) ('06) ('06)
Budget surplus deficit deficit
Savings rate >+5% 0% 2%
Curr account surplus deficit deficit
Banks bad bad bad
Real estate bad bad bad
Tax take medium high medium
Indeed, the odds are long that the UK's and US's deficit spending and quantitative easing will be succesful!
Cheeriu
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#62 John, the Big Bang may have been the moment when financial services was given much greater freedom, but the assertion that this made the credit crunch inevitable is dubious. How many banks had to be bailed out a la Northern Rock/HBOS/RBS on Thatcher and Major's watches? It was Brown who schemed up the tripartite system when he became mesmerised by the City during his "prawn cocktail offensive" with John Smith in the run up to the 1992 GE. He was only too happy to flirt with people like Fred the Shred and Crosby when they were providing enough corporation tax on their profits and CGT on their bonuses to cover up for the contraction of manufacturing due to Labour's stifling regulation. He created the FSA which was bankers regulating bankers and with a box ticking mentality that failed to address the problems being stored up. From 1997-2005, Labour had mammoth majorities in Parliament and they could have tightened things up but they were only too happy to ride the banking tiger.
The roots of the sub-prime crisis actually go back to Clinton in the mid-90's. He wanted finacial institutions like the banks and Fannie Mae to make more loans so as to increase home ownership among the poor, especially African-Americans. A laudable goal for sure but it gave birth to NINJA loans which triggered the sub-prime crash. Like Brown, Bush didn't recognise the problem building and even if he had tried to curtail it there would have been hell to pay with accusations that he was trying to stop poor African-Americans owning their own homes. You can see how that would have been portrayed! Maybe the pre-1997 system wouldn't have worked either, but in this case it was not the theory of free markets that failed but Brown's brainchild.
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I am sure President Obama is well briefed about Brown only being there to reflect in the President's popularity.
I am sure Presidential briefing advised caution when dealing with the arsonist now in charge of the fire station; the burglar in charge of crime reduction; the man who stole our retirement funds; the man who was the architect of our domestic financial crisis; the man who has saddled our next two generations with the biggest debt in history; the PM who falsly claimed to have saved the World.
The British public can see through this hypocrisy, I am sure President Obama can too.
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#62
I'm interested, from one "politically independent" blogger to another, what it is you think changed between 1986 and 2008 that meant despite the Big Bang, the banking and financial services industry seemed to manage just fine, without any major crises, until Northern Rock in 2007? Do you think it might have anything to do with the change in the regulatory structure?
Or are you suggesting that no amount of regulation would have avoided the meltdown of the banking system. That being the case, and since Gordon Brown is such a genius when it comes to these matters, why didn't he just roll back deregulation in 1997?
You see, I have a different theory. Any market can be regulated to do just about anything you want it to do if you put sufficient controls in place. New Labour had big plans for central government but that needed lots and lots of cash, and Tony Blair knew tax and spend governments get one term and one term only. So they needed to look elsewhere for their lucre, the North Sea wasn't going to subsidise Tony like it did for Maggie.
Problem, how do you increase the tax take without increasing tax rates? Answer, increase the top line. That 'prawn cocktail offensive' in the mid-nineties taught Brown that if he loosened the leash on the City, it would make so much profit, they wouldn't be able to spend the tax receipts (although a few wars soon put them right on that one). Enter the FSA, "not just light touch, limited touch" regulation, and the rest, as they say, is history.
Why were all these bankers feted by Brown, enobled, brought into Government, given nice cushy quango jobs? Why, even now, are they getting away with bringing the country to its knees?
Because they know where the blame really lies. They know where the bodies are buried, and Brown knows that if he wants any kind of political future (and you can be sure that he does), he better not rock the boat too far.
I have no doubt that the Tories would have been lobbyed into loosening the regulation of the City eventually, and I have no way of knowing whether that would have resulted in the same problems we are now experiencing. The lesson of Australia, and Canada I believe, seems to be that it was possible for a country's banks to have participated in the boom years without being fatally undermined by toxic debt, thanks to proper oversight by the regulators and therefore it can be argued that a different regulatory regime in the UK could have prevented much of the damage that has been wrought by the implosion of the financial sector in this country.
That at least, regardless of what anyone else might have done in the same circumstances, is enough for me to conclude that Gordon Brown's reform of financial regulation in 1997 was fatally flawed and has directly led to the situation we are now in. That puts Gordon Brown at the centre of this storm and makes him personally culpable. Any decent politician would admit his errors and stand aside to allow someone else, untainted by his term as Chancellor to take over running the country until such time as the electorate is given the opportunity to select a new Government.
Failure to do so is based on pure self-interest. Nothing more, nothing less.
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#67
Can't really disagree with any of that.
It's a matter of judgment whether a general election now or in May 2010 is better for UK plc. I suspect Cameron is in no hurry...
I've consistently argued on these pages and elsewhere that what's needed is a hung Parliament with a very good LD showing to rein in the elective dictatorship we have now, and electoral reform so things can never get this bad again.
We need somehow to steer ourselves into strong coalition government - avoiding an electoral "mandate" for a party with 36% of the votes from 25% of the adult population, without getting into Israeli-style coalition paralysis.
And we also need to solve the West Lothian question. Whether that's done by Scottish independence is up to the Scots, but I suspect it's probably the best solution for everyone except the Welsh.
GOK how we get from here to there, better minds than mine have tried and failed...
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#62 John Constable wrote:
Dan correctly identifies the 'Big Bang' in the City of London in 1986 as being at the root of this economic catastrophe in England.
a) there is a global element to the credit crisis. How does the Big Bang in London account for the problems in the US and other countries?
b) I would like to see the chronology of the credit crisis explained properly. My understanding is that the explosion of bank lending and the trade in instruments such as mortgage-backed securites took place after 2001.
c) monetary and fiscal policy was too lax in the UK and the US in the last decade. Both countries have too high levels of private and public debt. The world economy is unbalanced between debtor and creditor nations, and needs to be re-balanced.
There is no simple line, drawn in an historically determinist manner, between Big Bang and the current crisis.
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#34 peteholly
the oupouring of bile towards Brown is ridiculous?
where?
on this blog?
or in Harman undermining him about Sir fred's pension.
or the HSBC whistleblower balming Brown for ignoring the pressures building up in the fiancail system?
or the chancellor this morning saying that mistaes were made at the Treasury and with the regulators pre his days
or Lord Turner saying the tripartite structure didn't work
how many sources do you need to pour bile before you accept we have a lame duck of a non elected prime minister who no-one accepts is blameless for this catastrohpe of an economic downturn.
Call an election and let him defend his performance over the past twelve years; I can't wait.
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Nick Robinson is a terrible choice as political editor. His delivery is punctuated by big pauses and consists mainly of what he hopes are soundbites. "It cannot be a repeat of the Colgate moment between Blair and Bush" - what does that even mean? Clearly it "can't be" a repeat of that, they're two different people (thank God). Gordon Brown, whatever one thinks of him as Prime Minister, clearly has vast economic experience which the world can benefit from at the moment. That's probably the only reason he's the first European leader to visit Obama. Nick Robinson's easy, dumbed down version of events with a right wing slant to boot is not for me.
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67
An excellent post.
As much as Brown is unpopular we cannot and must not walkheadlong into a potentially far greater calamity by electing someone who would be far worse.
A Cameron/Osborne led Tory Government would be a calamity. They would have been in just as big a mess as Labour given the global nature of the downturn.Their policy pronouncements over the past decade are only marginally different fiscally and economically to what Brown has espoused and the shortfall in difference between the two would be irrelevant compared to where we now stand.
Cameron is a laissez faire economist 0- the likliehood is the Northern/rbs/hbos would have gone to the wall -millions would have lost everything and anarchy would prevail.
The Tories have no more coherent a plan than Labour to get us out of recession,globally or here in the UK - indeed they would simply do what Tories always do - CUT!
A Tory Government would cut the minimum wage,take back winter fuel allowances,remove free bus passes,scrap emergency winter cold payments to pay for the ridiculous notion of increasing Inheritance Tax thresholds to £1m.
The state theft of the services and utilities under Thatcher and Major has caused many ongoing problems - would they reverse these = no!
What the UK needs for 5 years at least is a sensible centrist moderate coalition party combining the skills of the likes of Cable,Ken Clarke,Alan Johnson and their ilk...
Not a dogmatic Tory Party or a pale right wing imitation e.g New Labour
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#34 peteholly wrote:
Politics is simply not just about the personality of one man. The outpouring of hatred toward Brown on this blog is ridiculous. Endquote.
Of course, on all blogs one comes across various rants not grounded on fact or reasonable opinion. However, many contributors do give reasons for their contempt for Gordon Brown (see for example shellingout at #69).
I wish Gordon Brown a happy retirement spent with his books and family. I don't wish to spend years hating him personally, as some people still seem to hate Margaret Thatcher. For now though, I do despise many of his economic policies (e.g. the 5 billion annual pension tax raid).
I agree that sometimes it would be fairer to direct anger towards the failed policies of this Labour Government. However, Gordon Brown has run domestic policy since 1997 and inevitably people are going to criticise him.
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#82 canttakeanymore
Saw your link.
Let's hope that one or two reporters at the "pool spray" will ask Gordon some of the more pertinent questions.
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unfortunate that we do not have a credable altrnative to Mr Brown. Who/ What are you all suggesting on here we must have David and His alternative None Conservative friends to govern us? Heaven forbid..Did any of you live under the New Conservative way?
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@72,
the Rock is repaying some of the borrowed billions but some of the debt has also been added to core capital, which we be lost if net assets turn out to be negative at the end of the line. Losses obviously hit capital/net equity as well.
@73,
the tax havens are another smokescreen that should not work (not to confuse tax havens with bank secrecy).
The starting point should be that individuals in OECD countries have fairly similar aspirations. Some countries try and meet these aspirations through high tax, while others leave it to the individual. For example in France, the state pays a huge chunk of all the pesnions, but that does not mean that Swiss and Irish citizens forgo pensions, they save for them rather than get them from the tax take. Hence low taxes do not consitute social dumping or a race to the bottom.
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I reckon Obama has got his head screwed on and is being quite cute in allowing GB his half an hour chat. GB will undoubtably gush about his 'save the world' plan....which will tell Obama all he needs to know about how to counter the arguments coming from Europe at the G20.
far from being the Global enforcer, Gb is in fact the Global Informer.
Any negotiator will tell you that if you show your hand before the negotiation....you will lose. Besides he has nothing to lose and probably only wants to tie the hands of the next Government.
Oh, and btw....do the assembled throng think the Chancellor has finally realised he's riding the wrong coat-tails and has decided to start positioning himself as the 'anyone but Harriet' candidate?
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Oh well, time to move onto more interesting blogs, it seems that the Tory activists are well and truly on message this morning, the pagers must have been working over time to spread the message. The theme of so many messages is so similar that it's obvious that the jist of the contents must have come from a central source - just look at the key-words used!
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I wonder whether Brown will be passing on to Obama the accumulated wisdom from this blog? The overwhelming view seems to be that:
-Brown is the most powerful man on earth, since single-handedly he has brought economies across the world, from Japan to Germany, Iceland to China, and all points between to the brink of disaster. This seems reasonable to me, since it was on his watch.
- the man in Whitehall knows best when it comes to running private enterprises, especially the most entrepreneurial of all (the banks). These free-marketeers are not to be trusted to make any decisions affecting their businesses, without some civil servant looking over their shoulder to make sure that they aren’t doing something really silly. Of course, if they do get away with being silly, they can reassure themselves that it is all Brown’s fault anyway because of (1) above.
- the man in Whitehall also knows best when it comes to decisions taken by private individuals, who clearly cannot be trusted to know how much debt they should lumber themselves with. However, as with (2) above, they can always console themselves by the knowledge that it was all Brown’s fault that they spent too much on their plastic, because of (1) above.
- Thatcher was wrong to elevate the concept of the ‘property owning democracy’ to the status of a religion, because that allowed lenders and borrowers to believe that what went up would never go down. Naturally, Brown was to blame for this because he didn’t prevent people from buying their own homes. He should of course have kept interest rates artificially high, and ignored the complaints of the businessmen who selfishly wanted low rates.
- finally, Brown should apologise publicly for allowing the exchange rate to fall. He should also apologise for allowing the exchange rate to be so high until a few months ago, thus destroying British industry. The collapse in the pound is proof that he has failed and destroyed the economy (the period when the pound was strong being merely an aberration that did not indicate that our economy was strong).
I must say that I am entirely convinced. Gordo out! Election now!
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The Times article (see #82) says
"After a working lunch with Mr Brown, Mr Obama will then head off to make a speech at the Department of the Interior before meeting a delegation at the Boy Scouts of America, the White House said."
Picture the scene:
Obama to his diary secretary:
"I'm not cancelling any meetings for this guy, but he can sit with me while I eat my sandwich if that helps him with the media back home".
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The effrontery of Crash et al flying to the State for an audience with an un-brifed Prezzy is gob smacking. This bunch of imbeciles are the first to complain about the Royal Family using the Royal Flight. So he's got 30 Min's and he's out of there in favour of the boy scouts at least Prezzy BO knows where his priorities lie.
This incompetent fool is putting green taxes on my petrol, heating and lighting bills erecting monstrosities of Windmills everywhere and preached about global warming. Then he pulls this one out of the bag. With today's technology could this not have been done by video link what was the pressing need to spend ten of thousands of pounds of tax payers money on a jaunt for the boys? This is the man who thinks the British public should take fewer holidays abroad in the interest of global warming you know those air polluting aeroplanes nasty things. I suppose the one he took is special and flaps its wings or does it fly on all the hot air he expels?
Now we know why he wants Fred's pension back ~ to pay for his little outings.
Please, please, please if you get the chance be a hit and ask the question other bloggers have posed. Mr President the Prime Minister Say it is all the fault of the US does it not shame you to think your country has brought the World to its knees especially the UK by forcing the unregulated banking system there to earn millions in taxes for the Treasury by giving away 125% mortgages?
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#88
"a) there is a global element to the credit crisis. How does the Big Bang in London account for the problems in the US and other countries?"
the fact that the markets went global, before then most markets were localised. The US crash in 1929 took weeks to migrate across the world, this time it took 24hrs.
The 'Big Bang' in London was just one of many such 'Big Bangs', granted, but they all (like so many changes made at the time) had their roots in the Thatcher/Reagan/Friedman economics of the 1980s.
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94
Cameron cannot even ignite his own Party let alone the Country.
The Tory Party is currently split three ways in respect of their views on Cameron.
1- Genuine Cameroons as they call themselves,mostly from the left of the Tory Party who dabbled with the Blair Project and Lib/Dems in the past who see Cameron as the "generational " change the Tory Party needed pragmatically to become remotely electable.
2. Right Wing Tories - those of the Davis/Redwood camp who despise the direction Cameron is taking them but who realise that once elected PM he can either be coerced into more right wing policies but who are ruthless enough to plot to remove him two years in - if they feel the need
3- The middle core - the Letwin/Howard/Hague clique - happy to get elected whatever the compromises but who hope for the inevitable left/right carnage two years in as the Cameroon dream fails- ready to pick up the pieces as old fashioned Conservatives and reliable and able to be an adequate compromise within the Party!
The key missing ingredient in all this is - where is the coherent logical plausible policy...
THERE IS'NT ANY!
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97 - Of course the fact that Brown becomes only the 5th British Prime Minister to address both houses of their legislature - equally if not more important than meeting Obhama - seems to have been airbrushed from this blog??
Blair and Thatcher were given that opportunity for years of strict and loyal adherence to the sitting President...
Churchill earnt the right...
I wonder why Brown is asked....
after all ...he could'nt possibly have something meaningful and coherent to say could he?
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#97:
More a case of great minds think alike methinks. Transmitting the same message doesn't lessen its significance! How many ways can you wrap up The Government's failings?
Messages of support for Gordon Brown also take the same line by the way - Tory activists on here are colluding - The Tory Press are working in concert - personal attacks on Gordon Brown are unfair - The Tory Opposition didn't stand in the way of soft regulation - the credit crisis was global and nothing at all to with us guv - we didn't know about the Fred Goodwin pension arrangements - blah blah blah!
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badgercourage @ 78
The fact that the 'big bang' in the City of London took place 23 years ago does not invalidate the key points that Dan Atkinson made, which were :
a) turning partners of City firms into salaried employees cleared the way for bonus driven risk-taking
b) clearing banks are able to create money out of thin air (fractional reserve banking) and big bang relaxed the strict regulation that they were under, thus allowing them to gamble at the City's big tables
c) 'Big bang' created clear conflicts of interest where none had existed before, for example, when functions were separate, there was no incentive for a broker to load clients with dud shares held by a market maker. Once they were all under one roof, the incentives changed.
d) the unshackled City was able to generate enormous amounts of credit that, until August 2007, allowed the country to 'enjoy' a standard of living that it was not earning.
I see Browns tenure as more of a way-point along this financial road to disaster.
Regarding political decisions made, or in some cases, not made, sometimes decades ago, the passage of time merely makes those more poignant.
For example, the utter failure of politicians, several decades ago to develop the third 'technical' stream of education in our country, is now finally being seen for the disaster it is - we now desparately need designers, engineers and scientists - and where are they?
Certainly not here.
The future is not Brown but rather Black just now.
We English have a mountain to climb but we seem to pull our fingers out when our back's are to the wall.
I expect we'll do it again.
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#77 Robin you're right that Al Hague wasn't in favour of the Falklands, he came out with the great line "Why would Great Britain risk everything for a thousand shepherds on some windswept rocks?" But his was a minority view in Washington, driven by the State Department's wish to keep Argentina as a bulwark against communism in Latin America. The Falkands War couldn't have happened without the support of Casper Weinburger, the then Defence Secretary and an ardent Anglophile. He ensured that the Royal Navy got supplies of the latest version of the Sidewinder air to air missile even before the USAF! Apparently he was also willing to transfer a Nimitz class aircraft carrier to UK command but Thatcher declined the offer. If that is true then she was foolish to turn it down because if Argentina had been confronted with that sort of firepower it would have sought a negotiated settlement.
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Edithyork
Gordon Brown, whatever one thinks of him as Prime Minister, clearly has vast economic experience which the world can benefit from at the moment.
........................................................
Just who is actually benefitting from this vast economic experience (sic) you speak about? I don't hear any other countries singing Gordon's praises.
Gordon Brown had no economic or financial qualifications when he assumed the post of Chancellor in 1997. He only got the job because he and Tony Bliar made a pact to share the job of PM.
Look around you, Edith. We're so deep in the mire it will take us decades to get out of it.
You really should get out more.
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#91 Greatandydudley wrote:
What the UK needs for 5 years at least is a sensible centrist moderate coalition party combining the skills of the likes of Cable,Ken Clarke,Alan Johnson and their ilk... Endquote.
Perhaps. However, let's be clear: this centrist party (or any other party) will need to both raise taxes and cut public spending. It will be nasty, and there may be riots, however nice the politicians in charge are. There's no easy way of moving from an annual budget deficit of over 100 billion to one in surplus. Furthermore, quantative easing (assuming it happens) will need to be put in reverse. Economic growth will help, but it won't be sufficient on its own. Expect to see living standards fall for at least another 15 years.
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Would the moderator explain why there has been such a long run of unacceptable Comments? I cannot imagine the sort of people who contribute to this blog write dire things. Unless it was political or just plain rude.
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Remember, it's only a 'Special Relationship' when the Americans want something from us.
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97 - "it seems that the Tory activists are well and truly on message this morning"
REALLY??... Do you actually believe that?
I am a self-confessed Labour voter and I don't see any opinion on this blog that hasn't been given to me by any number of friends and colleagues - in fact the only really surprising posts are 91 and 94 - strangely close to your own, if we are going to get into the conspiracy theories.
This in particular interested me:
"The Tories have no more coherent a plan than Labour to get us out of recession,globally or here in the UK - indeed they would simply do what Tories always do - CUT!"
This is possibly why a lot of the working/middle classes want Labour out - there has been a huge increase inpublic spending - but for WHAT, exactly? Cutting spending on ID cards, public sector jobs FULL STOP, final salary pensions (private sector ones have been taxed almost out of existence by Labour) - this all sounds like a good idea to me, bring it on.
Essentially, Labour seems to be on the side of workers who don't actually produce anything and have to be paid for by government - they thought this could be funded by massive tax revenues from 'the city' - then that came crashing down and Labour are now 'angry' about it. In the meantime, productive workers and companies have been royally screwed over time and time again.
It is no wonder there is so much anger on this blog, the Tories simply would not need a team of activists to post here... frankly, they would be wasting their money, Labour and Gordon in particular are doing it all for them.
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Boilerplated, the tories do not need to pay people to slate the labour party or Gordon Brown, there are millions of people in the UK only too happy to do that for free.
Certainly I am not paid, nor organised, nor am I a member of the tory party, but I willingly slate the labour party for their catastrophic and record breaking failings.
I remember black Wednesday and how Labour ranted about 10 Billion pounds wasted in one day trying to prop up the pound (in favour of a pro-EU policy supported by labour at the time BTW)
Well they are awfully quiet on the hundreds and hundreds of billions of pounds being thrown down the banking drain by Labour, to curry favour with their fat cat elitist chums in the city.
I am sure that I could not insure my car after it crashed, so WHY is Gordon insuring the banking system after it has effectively crashed?
The reason for it? To hide his OWN complicity in the crash. Gordon does not care how many teachers or nurses will have to lose their jobs over the next decade, just so long as he can limp-on to the next election.
New labour, new sleaze. Hundreds of billions for bankers and massive tax rises and cuts in essential services to come for the rest of us.
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#15 theorangeparty
Audacity of hype? Great description, better still is "paucity of hope" For this, read the UK population who have been sold a pup by a desperately poor Prime Minister, who, surely won't be in office much longer.
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97. At 12:47pm on 03 Mar 2009, Boilerplated wrote:
Oh well, time to move onto more interesting blogs, it seems that the Tory activists are well and truly on message this morning, the pagers must have been working over time to spread the message. The theme of so many messages is so similar that it's obvious that the jist of the contents must have come from a central source - just look at the key-words used!
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Imagine for one moment that you are wrong and all of the people who are posting here are not members of any party but are enraged at the destruction of their own their children’s and grandchildren's chances in life by a completely economically, intellectually bankrupt government.
Imagine
Think about it
That is the true depth of the plight of your party.
As the British public threw out the Tory's and consigned them to the wilderness so it will be for you.
I hope and believe that you will be punished long and hard for what you have done and hope that the Lib Dems and SNP push you into 4th place with few MP's
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98 'Interest rates artificially high' - !!! that is hilarious.
He did the complete opposite, did you really believe for one second that he was hitting his target of keeping inflation below 2% when house prices, petrol prices, food prices, energy prices were all increasing around 10-15% per year???
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Ah, just waiting moderation. Some have cleared that hurdle since posting. But it does seem PMs are blamed. Maggie destroyed the mining industry. Eden destroyed our standing in the world with the Suez fiasco. Blair involved us in a war that nobody wanted. Brown destroyed the economy. Single handed. I think he may have many wrong things, but that's not one of them.
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All very interesting Nick, but when are you or the rest of the Beeb going to talk about real news stories, like cabinet ministers husbands who got banged up for accepting huge bribes from the leader of a country who holidayed with the Blairs. Just who was the money really for and for what....
Also when will you cover defense reports that include quotes from an “influential” government official telling union officials that manufacturing had “no value” but the financial sector had to be “supported at all costs”. "..The rest of the country can be turned over to tourism.."
We didn't vote for Brown and the level of anger against him and his government grows by the day.
Still don't want to jeopardise your your seat on the jet out to the US, do we.....
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#94 66wewon
Did any of you live under the New Conservative way?
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Yes. I did, and I did very well. I had to work three jobs to pay a mortgage, decorate and furnish my home, but nobody said it would be easy.
Three decades on, and this Labour Government have taken it all back.
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#102 GAD
The key missing ingredient in all this is - where is the coherent logical plausible policy...
THERE IS'NT ANY!
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Labour have had almost 12 years to put together coherent logical plausible policies, but...
THERE AREN'T ANY!
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GAD
after all ...he could'nt possibly have something meaningful and coherent to say could he?
...............................................
.......What - in 30 minutes? By the time he'd finished pressing the flesh, just how much time would he actually have left?
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How does Brown do it, I ask you?
Forcing himself on the new US President like this, how embarrassing. Firstly, forcing them to invite him (clearly against their will) then to cap it all forcing them once again against their will to allow him to address both houses of congress!!!
There is no limit to this mans power and influence, firstly he single handedly destroys the world economy by wrecking (simultaneously) every country's national regulatory systems, then forces or tricks the worlds largest and most powerful country to listen to his ideas for international co-operation and response to the economic crisis against their will!!!
I'm beginning to think that FlamePat's new world order consiracy theory may just be right!!
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Heyup, the apologists have returned!
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#91
"A Tory Government would cut the minimum wage,take back winter fuel allowances,remove free bus passes,scrap emergency winter cold payments to pay for the ridiculous notion of increasing Inheritance Tax thresholds to £1m."
Can you substantiate any of that? Perhaps you could provide a link or two to anywhere that confirms the Conservatives are planning to do any of that...??
No, though not.
How pathetic.
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For all those that are calling for a general election on this blog see here:
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/GoToCountryNow/
No mandate, where's the democracy, Gordon you're destroying this country for future generations (let alone current)
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obangobang @ 86
Part of the art of politics in this country seems to be the ability to create an illusion in the public conciousness, that they, the politicians, know what they are doing.
In some countries, for example, France, the politicians really do have to know what they are doing.
That is, become qualified and exhibit genuine expertise, before they are let loose in a Ministry.
Not here - as per the rather sickening joke that Alan Johnson made to Jamie Oliver - I'm this weeks Education Minister (he's not anymore).
Gillian Tett is a very experienced journalist who writes for the Financial Times (FT) and she stated recently that she found that Ministers were almost totally ignorant of how the City works.
I think that the politicians were in thrall to these apparently successful financial alchemists and only to ready to take the 25% of revenue that the City was generating - and not asking too many questions, via its quasi-Governmental organs - Treasury, BoE , FSA - about precisely how all this money was being generated.
Yes, there's lots of blame to be shared out but funnily enough, it is the usually completely innocent 'little guy' and his family that always bears the brunt of it and he'll certainly be paying for it - one way or another.
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103#
Brown say anything meaningful and coherent??
Unless its reading someone elses obituary.... you've got to be kidding.
Those three words, "Brown" "Meaningful" "coherent".... they're mutually exclusive.
Like "it all started in America", "A global crisis, started in America", "British Jobs For British Workers", "best placed to ride out the downturn"
etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.....
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Perhaps Crash has gone just to discuss what suit he should wear as in 'Flash Gordon' or 'Super Gordon' - you know how these chaps are, they want to look the part and this is a pantomime isn't it!
I don't think Obama has been fooled by Crash and that he has anything significant to say.
Crash does love 'playing the part' though doesn't he!
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To continue a theme of former Prime Ministers, it is generally held that David Lloyd George (yes, the one who knew my father) sacrificed the interests of his party for the greater interests of his country.
This is a time that we should be looking to our national interests just as if we were at war.
If I understand Game Theory, the problem is that taking a stance against Protectionism only works for mutual benefit as long as everyone abides by the same rules. The first to break off and put self-interest first benefits at the expense of the others, the biggest losers are those who stick to the agreed rules after a breach has taken place.
Can we expect, for example, the US or the French not to put their own national interests first?
While there may be countries that will struggle (the EU accession countries spring to mind), ultimately each country working to restore its own fortunes will bring about recovery far better than attempting to implement a global agenda, with the ever-present threat of a big player defaulting.
The trouble is, we've abrogated the power to think for ourselves.
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Boilerplated @97,
Of course the theme is the same: the great depression that NuLabour has landed us in.
Of course the same words are being used. Words like Brown, duffer, Darling, puppet, recession, depression, wasted, useless and election.
I don't think the Tories do co-ordinated blogging. Nu labour tried it with Draper's Drones - but they were as obvious (and as tasteful) as fresh dog's manure on virgin snow.
Speaking for myself, I can confirm that I am not - and have never been - a member of any political party (I am a Marxist of the Groucho tendency), and that I totally independent of any organisation or campaign.
Can you say the same, Boilerplated?
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#102
"The Tory Party is currently split three ways in respect of their views on Cameron."
...and NuLabour isn't, remind us, how many did Blair loose from the cabinet over Iraq, how many Labour MPs voted against the Iraq war, how many NuLabour MPs are threatening to defy the whip on the Royal Mail etc. NuLabour has only ever been united in one policy - to remain in power!
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103 - greatuncledudly wrote -
97 - Of course the fact that Brown becomes only the 5th British Prime Minister to address both houses of their legislature - equally if not more important than meeting Obhama - seems to have been airbrushed from this blog??
Blair and Thatcher were given that opportunity for years of strict and loyal adherence to the sitting President...
Churchill earnt the right...
I wonder why Brown is asked....
after all ...he could'nt possibly have something meaningful and coherent to say could he?
---------------------------------------------
Was he actually asked? I doubt it.
And if he had something meaningful OR coherent to say then it would be a first!
The man is utterly pointless, just a collection of spin phases that work with less and less of the electorate.
He just wants the photo for the mantlepiece while he's still got the chance.
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#91 Greatandy
#108 JohnHarris
Much as I hate to mildly disagree with someone who was so complimentary to my earlier post, we need to start looking at the very roots of our democratic processes and beyond the current crop of beauty queens.
What we need is a radical overhaul of who we are, what we are and how we, this country's greatest asset (as those politicians patronisingly remind us) pull ourselves out of this mire.
The WWI description of "lions led by donkeys" may have been overused, but the sooner we realise that we do not have to be continually put down by Them That Have Failed Us, the sooner we can start to make real progress.
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newlabour apologists on the run I see.
If the best you can come up with is collusion then you really are running scared of the fight.
Perhaps in your progressive heads you could work out that it's possible for a whole multitude of unconnected people to come to the same conclusion merely by examining the evidence on offer;
Gordon Brown must go and go soon.
Call an election.
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I read on the BBC that the tax-payer is to lend 2 billion to private companies who are participating in the Private Finance Initiative (PFI) as these companies cannot raise the money elsewhere.
Why did we ever get into PFI anyway? It's more expensive that direct Government funding, and the tax-payer is still liable for any debts incurred (some of which run for over 30 years).
Of course PFI allowed Gordon Brown (yes, that man again) to hide over 100 billion of liabilities off-balance sheet so that he could keep to his so-called golden rules (until he got rid of them, that is).
The whole thing is an Government-sponsored accounting scam. Enough to make me a socialist (only joking).
So here's a challenge for Labour-supporting bloggers: defend PFI if you can.
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Edithyork
Gordon Brown, whatever one thinks of him as Prime Minister, clearly has vast economic experience which the world can benefit from at the moment.
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Just checked Wikipedia.
Seems Gordon Brown has a PhD in History. Job prior to becoming an MP - Journalist.
Doesn't give one the impression that he has vast economic experience at all . . . . and this is clearly demonstrated by his performance as Chancellor.
To use the Obama line -- "time for a change" -- urgently in the case of UK.
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#109
Would the moderator explain why there has been such a long run of unacceptable Comments? I cannot imagine the sort of people who contribute to this blog write dire things. Unless it was political or just plain rude."
Err, so far (at the time of writing) there has only been two messages removed! Are you either miss understanding the pre-moderation policy or are talking about previous Newslog blogs as well as this one? There was a blog last week, on the day of Ivan's death were many comments had to be removed for legal reasons - judging from a couple of messages posted by Nick himself within the blog.
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One can only hope that Barak Obama strongly advises Brown to RESIGN NOW!
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#111 and #112
Other than directing you to my previous reply @ 130 about the use of keywords all I will add is, purpleDogzzz, I never used the word 'pay' - just activists.
Oh, and if I detected Labour (or any other party) activists doing the same I would be just as critical.
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#114
"That is the true depth of the plight of your party."
...and which party do you think that is, clue the answer might actually surprise you, as I said in another blog - the next election is there for Cameron to loose, not for Labour to win.
My comment was about the miss use (as I see it) of these BBC blogs by any political party or movement.
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114#
Thats the really irritating things about the apologists.
If you're not one of them you must be a rampant Tory. You couldnt possibly have any other political offiliation....
Bit like the old ducking stool for witches, 500 years ago.
If you survive, you're a witch. If you dont and you're dead, you were obviously a witch.
Yeah. Makes perfect sense....
.....If the electorate has a collective IQ of about 30 and the memory of an amnesiac goldfish.
And the post about Gordons "vast economic experience that would benefit the world..."
Thats like saying "The methods of Felix Dzerzhinsky are a model for modern Metropolitan policing". Utterly laughable, the politics of the madhouse.
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#121:
You are one of three lone voices in The Labour wilderness. Give it up!!!!
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Why all the coded language Nick? Why cant you call it as it is. This is payback for Gord blaming all the UK's ills on America. Brown is a busted flush, The Americans are not stupid, they can see it. No mention of No 10 spinning no press conference because of the snow? that's laughable and you're slacking.
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All this talk of political parties funding bloggers and providing the messages has me worried.
I thought this was just a forum for people with an interest in political matters to debate their views.
I'll have to be more careful what I write in the future if this blog is regarded as being so influential.
Of course, there is always the alternative view that less than 100 people form their own views and publish them herein; while at the same time realising that they have no influence on political events at all.
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I don't really know about other posters (or electors), but I hope that Brown strikes up some sort of sensible relationship with Obama.
Brown may be seen as a pain on the rear by many, but he's supposed to the leader of the UK's political system. I doubt he'll be acting in that role for much longer, but we do need some continuation of contact with the USA.
I hope he doesn't try and tell the US reporters that "he's happy that Obama is following the Brown route to extracting us from a financial mess"... (Seems to be his message to his own electors!)
Pity that, with Robinson in the US and Peston in China, there will be no great BBC analysis of the statement that government (tax-payer) owned or controlled banks will be pumping money into firms delivering what were supposed to be Private Finance Initiatives.
I assume there will be a little bit of due diligence (including some pretty meaty kicking of the tyres, so check whether the casually agreed long-term debt and service costs are actually justifiable...).
Bit late to start due diligence at this time, but better late than never.
(I agree with some posters that the US "sub-prime" problem was originated by Clinton, who wanted to bring poorer people into home ownership. Without ensuring some really tight controls over terms and conditions. You'd have thought Brown was enough of an historian to check recent world history as well as that of independent Labour mavericks in Scotland.
Funny, really. Nick Robinson's radio stuff focused on the PM Lord North. When he was "in power" when the US Independence movement - actually an inter-continental civil war - he desperately tried to resign several times. He knew he wasn't cut out to handle that situation.
Pity Brown hadn't the courage to resign. He could have had a more suitable life as a red-brick academic.)
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There is no posture to which our Prime Minister will not stoop in order to pleasure his ego.
His so-called initiative for enhanced international banking regulation is nothing more than an exhortation. What diplomatic energy been expended on this task and what are the proposals? Nothing much, just rhetoric.
This is the same tired old Gordon Brown going around trying to attract some reflected glory. It would seem that the Obama administration has already measured what he has to say and are just being polite.
The reality is that the US is going to focus on solving its own problems before it tries once more to address the issues facing the rest of the world. Some in Europe will dress this up as protectionism but the rest of us will recognise this as the way of the world.
There is no prospect of a Marshall Plan, indeed there is no reason for one. Europe and the UK are going to have to work their own way out of the mess they have helped to create.
The good times are over and they won't be back. Change is needed, not tomorrow, but now.
The UK government is going to have to cut its spending dramatically within the next year otherwise it will prove difficult to borrow the money needed to fight the slump. I do so hope that this measure is forced on Gordon Brown to execute and not left to the next government to do. Not only do I want Labour to eat its own words, I want Labour to choke on them as well.
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#105 John Constable
Don't get me wrong, I think Dan Atkinson is a good journalist. I used to like his writing in the Guardian.
But as a historian I take some convincing that any particular event is all important in determining the course of subsequent events. Reality is more nuanced than that.
The "Big Bang" may have been a necessary condition for us being in the mess we are. But it was of itself not a sufficient condition.
It was only one of a number of changes over a long period which contributed to the UK economy being wrongly balanced by the early years of this century, including short-termist political decisions by governments of all hues; technological change that neither the politicians nor the bankers understood; selling essential infrastructure sectors to overseas owners; and an over-concentration on service industries.
The UK has also had some long-running supply side weaknesses, including poor scientific and technical education, as you mention. Others include short termist views of returns on capital, poor management of both manufacturing firms and and the service sector, inadequate spending on R&D etc., which the current government has exacerbated or not addressed.
The fact that the UK was the first industrial nation also meant our infrastructure was and is old and difficult to replace or upgrade - railways, roads, electricty distribution etc. which again the current government has perpetuated. We are for instance in real risk of "brown-outs" in electricity supply in the not too distant future, as old nuclear power stations come off-line without replacements built.
I notice however you don't address my main point: that Brown has been at the helm for 11 1/2 years and has therefore had ample time to address the icebergs ahead of the SS UK and make the necessary course corrections.
He claimed the credit for 10 years of rapid growth, although much of that has proved illusory or at best short lived: the FTSE is currently back below where he started!
Now he must accept much of the the responsibility for the present situation, which his policies helped create. Tough and perhaps partly unfair, but that's the real world.
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Boilerplated @ 136
This blogger had a post censored on the 'Ivan' thread and it's removal was completely justified.
The lesson for us bloggers, which all professional journalists surely must have etched on their brains is :
Verify your sources.
PS. That is all from me today, I do hope you find my little contributions useful.
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#135
"Just checked Wikipedia.
Seems Gordon Brown has a PhD in History. Job prior to becoming an MP - Journalist."
I wouldn't go down that road if I were you, less someone starts looking up the Wikipedia entries on some leading shadow cabinet members...
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"Churchill earnt the right...
I wonder why Brown is asked....
after all ...he could'nt possibly have something meaningful and coherent to say could he?"
--------------------------------
Perhaps he will be told what to say by the Americans? After all, that might make a pleasant change for them to hear him say something "meaningful and coherent" instead of "it all started in America"
Well let's face it, it would be a pleasant change for all of us to hear him say ANYTHING that is meaningful and coherent. In the last year I can only think of one time when he did and that was in his condolences to David Cameron last week.
I wonder if Brown has the courage to tell the Democratic controlled American congress that our problems are all their fault?
What am I writing??? Brown and courage? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Sorry, I don't know what I was thinking there for a second.
No the reason for Brown to speak (a carefully written speech for him) to congress is for the photo-op. It is customary for the congress to give a standing ovation to every other paragraph in a speech given by any dignitary to their house. No matter what rubbish is actually said. They are just so massively over-courteous and polite that way.
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#125
So let me see if I'm getting this right. Your "politically independent" defence of Gordon Brown, is that he was unqualified to know about financial matters? Presumably, therefore, we have to excuse his catastrophic reform of financial regulation, because he didn't know it wouldn't work when he thought it up.
Well that's alright then.
So we'll just stick to the "it's all Maggie's fault" delusion and leave it at that, shall we?
Excellent.
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#138
Sorry about the cited message, looks like one of my replies has vaporised into the ether, not even showing up as rejected!
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rifle @ 121 wrote:
How does Brown do it, I ask you?
Forcing himself on the new US President like this, how embarrassing. Firstly, forcing them to invite him (clearly against their will) then to cap it all forcing them once again against their will to allow him to address both houses of congress!!!
There is no limit to this mans power and influence, firstly he single handedly destroys the world economy by wrecking (simultaneously) every country's national regulatory systems, then forces or tricks the worlds largest and most powerful country to listen to his ideas for international co-operation and response to the economic crisis against their will!!!
I'm beginning to think that FlamePat's new world order consiracy theory may just be right!!
Who on earth claimed that Gordon Brown forced himself on The President against his will? The special relationship transcends whoever is in charge at Downing Street. Churchill, Thatcher and Blair addressed The Congress' It would have been downright rude to deny Gordon his chance. And whoever said anything about him destroying every country's national regulatory system? That would just be silly and wholly unsupportable. He did however as Alistair Darling has admitted have a loose hand on the tiller over here. Darling in apologising on behalf of The Government for the oversight has infuriated his boss. Of course Gordon Brown hasn't tied Barack Obama's hands behind his back to lsten to his ideas. It doesn't mean however that he has to accept them in totality.
You are merely exaggerating in order to make what point I haven't a clue!
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It speaks volumes when I see that snowfall has put paid to Gordon's photo shoot in the Rose Garden. No plans to move him indoors either.
He's been sandwiched between the Scouts and Obama's afternoon cup of tea.
Oh dear.
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Hi Nick,
I hope Gordon hasn't seen this...
"CNN reports Blair in D.C., not Brown"
Doh!!
http://blogs.news.sky.com/boultonandco/Post:6782c1aa-9546-47e1-898b-b0a8824c427d
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#148 boilerplated
I wouldn't go down that road if I were you, less someone starts looking up the Wikipedia entries on some leading shadow cabinet members...
......................................
Ah, but the shadow cabinet members aren't popping in to see Obama, are they.
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@ 142, "No mention of No 10 spinning no press conference because of the snow? that's laughable and you're slacking."
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I agree completely. Considering Gordon was going to go there to (supposedly) discuss economic recovery, then there is no reason to allow a bit of snow prevent a press conference, UNLESS they were going to be discussing global warming.
But they could easily have used any number of alternative rooms at the White house.
Nope, this is America snubbing the bafoon that blamed them for his own many and massive record breaking calamitous catastrophic failings.
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This visit to America is just side show politics. What we want to know is whether Gordon Brown will be making a statement about the University Challenge debacle?
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The government is to lend up to £2bn to firms struggling to build schools and other public projects under the Private Finance Initiative (PFI).
Isnt this a bit like giving your council the money to build you a council house to rent from them.
It would be cheaper to build your own if you have the money surely.
So if the government have the money to invest in building the school why dont they just build the thing instead of lending someone else the money to rent it back to us.
mind you if this is there policy I have my eye on a number of repo properties that I would like to buy to rent back to the repossessed perhaps they could give me the money for this then they wouldnt need to provide a council house.
What a wheeze
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On the very day Brown's own creation the FSA has had to admit it's been a failure he's off trying to sell another duff creation to the US.
How embarrassing this man is.
I'm sure that Obama is well briefed on Brown's non future hence the brief meeting.
You're all going to have to spin like mad to convince anybody here that this visit is being treated seriously in Washington. We've all seen the giggles when the media were asked about 'I saved the world' Gordon.
Perhaps the months he has spent on his saving the world package could have been better spent on trying to find a way of saving this country.
Or has he already given up on that?
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#155
"Ah, but the shadow cabinet members aren't popping in to see Obama, are they."
Not yet anyway...
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re 135
Actually methinks if you were to read the Prime Minister's PHD you would find that he has even less talent as an academic and writer than he does as a Prime Minister and Chancellor.
The PM is a failed radical socialist who is now a failed cheer leader for unfettered free market capitalism
Rupert Murdoch has decided that it is time that he left the stage. And leave the stage he will. Trust me.
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"He did however as Alistair Darling has admitted have a loose hand on the tiller over here. "
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A loose hand on the tiller? Nonsense, he was sailing full steam ahead into those waters of irresponsibility with warning still ringing in his ears of the massive rocks that awaited us there.
Loose hand on the tiller indeed? This is merely labour's attempt to accept a partial and minor blame, whilst blaming everyone else.
More a case of "oops, however did that fox get through the hen-house door? well we might have accidentally left it unlocked for a bit when we fed the hens..."
When they knowingly put the fox in there themselves.
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Just doing his job?
Perhaps he considers that his job is to waste as much taxpayers' money as possible? Why on earth fly all that way at our expense for a 30 minute meeting? Surely that could be done by phone?
And don't get me started on carbon footprints...
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President Obama is a very shrewd man and people should look to his actions with regard to Gordon Brown as an indicator of our PMs status in the world.
Which isn't much aparrently.
Quite rightly, Obama has judged Gordo is yesterdays man, who is tainted with all the errors and misadventures of the past decade, on both sides of the Atlantic.
Obama will distance himself from Brown, in order to look fresh and different. He can't afford to be seen as the same as Bush.
Not until we have our elections and a fresh government will Obama be able to enter into substantive relations with the UK.
Until then, everything will be conducted at arms length.
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Given that Mr Robinson and the troop of BBC correspondents Stateside have been bigging up Mr Brown's visit is it not ironic that there is not a sniff of any of this on the BBC News frontpage?
This wouldn't have anything to do with Mr Brown being essentially snubbed by President Obama would it? Looks like the Government mouthpiece aka the BBC are having trouble spinning this one.
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What exactly is the kudos attached to meeting Obama all about anyway? Sure, he seems like a nice enough guy, lovely family and all that, but beyond being the first black (mixed race actually) President of the United States of America, what is he supposed to have that Brown (or anyone else for that matter) would want?
Okay, he's popular, but let's bear in mind that he won with less than 53% of the popular vote. In a two horse race. That's hardly a ringing endorsement. I mean it's not exactly a landslide, is it?
And if you take account of the fact that he won largely because he managed to motivate the black and hispanic vote, most of whom don't usually vote at all, you have to accept that for most of 'middle America', all this guy represents is that he's not Bush.
It's a bit like Brown's initial surge of popularity because he wasn't Blair, and we know how long that lasted.
In terms of policy, Obama is a novice. His own VP has admitted they have no idea if their fiscal stimulus will work. There is significant opposition to it, politically and publicly, and if it doesn't start to reap dividends pretty soon, his lustre will quickly fade.
If it's star quality he's looking for, perhaps Brown should have offered to give away a prize at the BAFTAs, or better still the Brits. He might have been introduced to the Arctic Monkeys (they're a band, Prime Minister).
Frankly I find the whole thing embarassing.
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Brown just doesn't get it does he? He hopes fervently that some of the Obama stardust will brush off on him. It won't! Obama represents change - he has been recently elected. Brown represents a failed past and no-one elected him as PM, not even his own party.
The game is up Brown - you have led this country into a cul-de-sac of inadequate regulation, too much Government borrowing and a bubble economy which is now bust. Your Cabinet of inadequates is clearly not up to the job and for some reason I cannot fathom, Jacqui Smith is still Home Secretary despite her disgraceful behaviour over taxpayer funded expenses.
Call an election now!
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Is anyone else picturing an exasperated Obama shouting: "If I give him 30 minutes in a week or so do you think that'll stop the begging for a meeting?"
Once again the Golem embarrasses the country.
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I do not think for one moment that the US president will see Brown as nothing more than a member of the old guard, part of the Bush/Blair axis, that has brought nothing to enrich the lives of ordinary citizens, but has made wealthy people even wealthier. The problem Brown faces is that he is part of the problem and not part of the solution.
Barak Obama was voted in as a prelude to change in America, which so desperately needed, Brown thinks that as PM, change will come at his instigation, and not through a change in politics or party.
His cabinet are out of breath, and out of ideas, hence Ms Harman being left out on a limb talking about changing the law for one mans grossly over-rated pension, the economy is slowly grinding down to a halt, and with his popularity at an all time low, what lessons can he teach the 'novice'?
Its time for GB to take a long hard look at the things he is connected with here in the UK, and not trying to rub shoulders with one who has made it there by the will of the people, and not through backstabbing his colleagues.
Until he opens his eyes then he and the labour party are on a sinking ship!
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So let's just imagine the conversation between Gordon Brown and Barack Obama:
BA: welcome to the White House Prime Minister
GB: thank you Mr President
BA: would you like a Washington DC Potomac special triple chocolate muffin Prime Minister?
GB: actually I wanted to talk about a global grand bargain Mr President
BA: oh, yeah, talk to my people about that; they're doing grand bargains down at CostCo.
GB: no I mean a global grnad bargian for the financial system, Mr President
BA: you can get a mortgage at Costco these days. Is this for Downing Street or the whole of Ingurland?
GB: well if we can't talk about the global grand bargain can we at least agree to co-operate on interneational trade?
BA: sure, we just signed a made in America package to make sure American workers keep their jobs and then they can start buying things again; what would you like to sell us?
GB: a tripartite system for global banks regulation; one careful owner, bit torn around the edges.
BA: er, no thanks, prime minister, will that be all?
GB yes indeed, Mr President, may i have a photo please?
BA: sure, ask my people to have one digitally made up for you.
GB goodbye, god bless you My President.
BA: were you elected mr Prime Mnister?
GB: by Fife, mr President
BA: thought not, Call an election
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Do I understand this and your last blog now correctly?
Obama has sent back the bust of Churchill, and Brown's gift (apart from the desk ornament) was a specially bound copy of Winston Churchill's volumes of memoirs?
You couldn't make it up
no reward for failure
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Why do we keep on getting these insidious reports of monopoly money being paid to previous and current high flyers linked to the bank bail outs?
The Evening Standard is reporting that
the Zurich-based troubleshooter brought in by the Government to run Northern Rock cost the taxpayer £173,000 in expenses last year as she travelled between her home in Switzerland and the UK. On top of that she earnt £786,000 for ten months work bringing the total bill to the tax payer of £959,000.
From the same source other government appointees at Northern Rock Chairman Ron Sandler was paid £760,000 while new chief executive Gary Hoffman earned £645,000 for just three months' work.
Mr Hoffman, a former Barclays banker, was given a golden hello of £400,000 when he joined in October - to be repeated in October this year and again in October next year - on top of his £700,000 annual salary.
Northern Rock also awarded payoffs worth more than £1.25 million to departing directors Bryan Sanderson and Andy Kuipers.
Is this all being done just to wind us up in the expectation of total outrage to cover up another major cock up by Gordon Brown and the PM?
For how much longer does Brown, Mandleson and Co think they can keep dumping on the taxpayer? Now its the turn of PFIs that are going to be bailed out. No wonder the budget date has been set for April! There must be some very harsh measures lined up for the tax payer to pay for all of this which Brown does not want to be embarassed by at the G20 meeting.
I think if I was Obama, I would keep today`s meeting as low key as possible. The President has distanced himself from Bush, the author of America`s woes and does he really want to align himself with Brown, who must now shoulder a great deal of responsiblity for the cause of UK Plcs current woes.
I think if the Uk did not have troops in Afghanistan Gordon would have had to wait a long while for a chat with the new President. It will be interesting to see what reception the other european leaders get when they met Obama - fair more public I suspect.
Wonder what tomorrow will bring? Trouble is, we are getting so used to it now that we are no longer suprised. That`s what really troubling - not the bad news but the shrug of the shoulders,"yeah,so what," attitude. Brown is being allowed to get away with murder at the moment with barely a wimper from the opposition; but then he is doing their work for them. So why not sit back and let him keeping on digging.
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Two questions:
1. Just how much is this 30 minutes of completely pointless grandstanding costing the UK taxpayer?
2. Why, when he constantly spouts on about carbon footprint reduction, didn't Brown talk to Obama via a satellite video link?
An utter waste of time. That's the trip and the UK participant!
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#161
"Rupert Murdoch has decided that it is time that he left the stage. And leave the stage he will. Trust me."
One wouldn't think that from (dare I say it on the BBC), watching Sky News today, they have been all over the Brown trip to see Obama and don't seem to miss an opportunity to show Browns face on screen!
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I bet Gordo turned down the lift in a golf buggy.
Tight turns does not add to the dignity of a PM - elected or otherwise.
KInnock had trouble living down his impromptu dip in the sea but it did not stop him enjoying the nest egg provided by the EU
Look forward to the foto -ops from GBs time with a genuine world leader.
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#164
"President Obama is a very shrewd man and people should look to his actions with regard to Gordon Brown as an indicator of our PMs status in the world.
Which isn't much aparrently."
How do you work that out?
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I rate Obama highly and Brown just below zero.
Brown may seek the Obama magic (and I do accept he is human will make mistakes ,still on honeymoon etc) but Brown as an architect of light touch regulation is surely touched by the plague that brought us to this place.
Is Obama going to take any notice of "light touch" Brown? He seems to like the big tent and understands politics obviously. But one of the movers for the Iraq War? Then again he seemed happy with Blair - assuming he is going to stay in that post?
Some of the ideas make sense but for instance its not really whether there is cross border regulation thats important its whether its effective.
Its whether bodies such as the FSA and/or an IMF replacement have teeth and the will - the political will to ask awkward questions and ring bells. Like the HBOS risk manager.
The Lord North allusion does raise the fact that New Labour have been trying to talk up the economy (Starbucks etc) when its still clearly in a spiral.
Denial in all senses as he still seems to see himself as a hero and not one of the villains.
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Churchill was an incredible STATESMAN
Brown just gets us in an incredible state
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All together now..........
Things can only get better
and while i'm on the subject.....
Labour isn't working
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Oh dear, oh dear how the Gordon Brown visist is already unravelling.
No wonder the newlabour apologists are all over this post today desperately trying to spin their way through this doomed visit:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/3405536/brown-visit-unravels.thtml
Gordon brown is being compared to Taro Aso the outgoing Japanese premier who was given equally short shrift.....
Goodbye Gordon. What a waste of money and a farce. Obama doesn't buy your show-boating.
Call an election
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#165
"Given that Mr Robinson and the troop of BBC correspondents Stateside have been bigging up Mr Brown's visit is it not ironic that there is not a sniff of any of this on the BBC News frontpage?"
Hmm, so it's not on the front page (something else in the world of world importance happened overnight), but it's heading the "UK News" section front page - as I type this - as it is on the "UK Politics" front page. Many important stories only get a single line on the BBC news front page (either version) but head the main subject pages, and remember that many people will cut to the chase and not go via the front page.
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#166
"What exactly is the kudos attached to meeting Obama all about anyway? Sure, he seems like a nice enough guy, lovely family and all that, but beyond being the first black (mixed race actually) President of the United States of America, what is he supposed to have that Brown (or anyone else for that matter) would want?"
The ability not to allow the UK (and Europe's) economies go into meltdown should he decide to allow A.I.G to go bust instead of bailing it out?...
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So Obama is returning Churcills bust.
Is that to sit side by side with Browns bust?
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#168
"Is anyone else picturing an exasperated Obama shouting: "If I give him 30 minutes in a week or so do you think that'll stop the begging for a meeting?"
Once again the Golem embarrasses the country."
...and would you be saying the same had it been Cameron, Osborne, Cable's or some such none Labour MP?
Sorry but some of the 'rants' being posted about Browns visit with Obama are just so shallow, if anything they actually discredit the more positive messages that are being made against Brown and his actions on this blog and elsewhere.
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#169
Very well said, that is real criticism and to the point, not the shallow utterances of so many - such as the blogger above you at #168.
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Looks like Gordon is furious that Alastair and Ed have used the messiah's trip to the US as cover to start apologising to us!!!!
http://broganblog.dailymail.co.uk/2009/03/brown-and-darling-at-odds.html
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I'll bet Gordon's PR people are running around the White House like headless chickens trying to get him the media coverage they think he deserves.
Tony got the full nine yards, with breakfast a month ago, and Obama referred to him as "my very good friend".
Gordon has been squeezed into a small window between the Scouts, and Tiffin, without a press conference or photo opportunity.
Time to leave, Gordon, - and I don't just mean America.
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To be fair to the White House, by not scheduling a press conference they've saved the Golem further humiliation. I mean, how embarrassing would a joint press conference be, with the confident and media-savvy Obama next to the stuttering, mumbling imbecile from Fife?
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I stumbled on this picture of Brown preparing with his "Top Team" to go and meet that Wonderful Wizard called Obama.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_gnCsylPoAzQ/Sa0Tj2NRYqI/AAAAAAAAABA/-nkD0_f1MrA/S660/Obama-of-Oz.jpg
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#180
How about trying that message again, this time using a non biased magazine/URL....
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69 Dear Shellingout,
As ever you speak pointed and emotional words that go to the heart of the problem.
As a psychologist let me tell you that you are right and one of the reasons for the bile and tone of language is all about how let down we ALL feel by this man and his predecessor. We were all taken for a SPIN - excuse the pun but it was quite deliberate. This use of words in clever ways, always having other ways of taking a message shows a very sophisticated approach. I guess that AD's sort of admission in the Telegraph today results from the focus groups on which New Labour reply so heavily for their next set of messaging. It is cycle use to try and persuade us - consult the focus groups, analyse results, shape narrative, put out spin - repeat. Its the New Labour way. Problem is we the British Public have, thank the stars, have tumbled it.
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Boiler:
Do you have an opinion on anything, or are you just a non-aligned professional agent provocateur?
An off-duty Jeremy Clarkson perhaps???
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If Gordon Brown has anything to do with cross border cooperation and closing off tax havens and the like, you can rest assured that there'll be some whopping great loopholes in it for the obscenely rich to get even richer
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Boilerplated,
Much as I admire your efforts, you are starting to look like the boy with the finger in the dam - as the whole dam begins to crack. Trying to rebuff every single anti-Brown comment is a flawed and futile effort. Just reading the "mood-music" in toto, rather than trying to attack individual points might allow you to see the bigger picture, and recognise defeat. Mind you, that does seem to be a Labour Party trait at the moment.
Amusing to watch though.
Enough analogies!
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#189 jonathancook
.....pale blue suits Mandy, don't you think?.....:-)
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#56 JohnConstable
Don't you think Tony Blair is a bit risky?
Not only are the misdeeds of his 'friendship' with Bush coming to light (torture, war crimes etc) but he's also the Prime Minister behind Britain's housing bubble, love of banks, expansion of PFI, the chaos we're in now etc etc.
I just don't think Europe or us for that matter will accept him. In fact, I don't even think Europe has really accepted Europe yet.
Anyway, President Obama is only interested in a united, coherent Europe because he badly needs a 'junior' partner to help counter the US's new owners in the East.
Going forward, I think we should become closer to Europe but not for Obama's or America's sake.
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Oh dear - the Tory blog entry creation program is having a tedious day:
I despise Brown because *random insult*.
NuLabour should go away because *random comment* and they disagree with me
*Random moan* is all Brown's fault because *random words*
Barking is mad *just because*
Call an election
Ha ha ha
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#187
"I'll bet Gordon's PR people are running around the White House like headless chickens trying to get him the media coverage they think he deserves."
Just as Tory party activists are running around trying to rubbish the visit at every opportunity.
As I've said, please remember that the next election is for Cameron to loose, not for Brown to win, some of the Brown criticism is so shallow that it doing more damage to Cameron (through association)...
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Gordon has bottled it....... again........
He has stopped blaming America for starting the crisis during interviews on US soil.
You think, given his interest in the subject of courage, that he'd stick to his guns and continue to ram home his message blaming America!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7918345.stm
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Island Doctor.
Thank you for your support.
It's all about interpretation, isn't it. Lawyers are extremely good at that, which is probably why so many of them are feathering their nests, whilst in the Cabinet.
I'm counting down the days until May 2010.
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#182
Sorry, you think Obama can save the UK (and Europe's) economy? How exactly?
He doesn't even know if he can save the US.
Oh, and I see that "it all started in America", should actually be "it all started in American International Group".
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The absurdity of this blog is that if Gordon Brown is unable to sell himself to us then how does he possibly think he's going to sell his 'Global Grand Bargain' to Barack Obama in 30 minutes?
Obama probably just thinks that he's come to sell us and our resources again on the cheap - like Blair did to Bush.
It's ridiculous Brown should resign.
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#166. obangobang
Exactly - well said.
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I was looking to see what the New York Times had to say about Gordon Brown's visit (nothing) - when I stumbled on something else altogether.............
Check it out...... now that is what I call a Fiscal Stimulus Plan!
http://projects.nytimes.com/44th_president/stimulus
No wonder Obama is ignoring no hoper Brown and making time for the Boy Scouts.
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# 191 IslandDoctor
Its the New Labour way. Problem is we the British Public have, thank the stars, have tumbled it.
The bigger problem is its taken too many of us 12 years to tumble it
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#194
[ the boy with the finger in the dam ]
If I was the boy with the finger in Brown's Dam I can tell you this, the subject of Nick's blog would be the impending election. Is that clear enough, I just don't think air-brushing history or cheap and shallow 'rants' gets us anywhere, not only that but it probably does more damage.
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ooh, we've upset Boilerplated.
Think we've hit a sweet spot here; Obama is giving Gordon brown the same shelf life As Taro Aso the Japanese PM he chose to snub recently.
No press crop, no Rose Garden.
goodbye Gordon,
what a political faux pas,
what a car crash of a prime minister,
what a disgraceful representative of this once respected and great nation.
half an hour before the boy scouts
Call an election.
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#91
"the shortfall in difference between the two would be irrelevant compared to where we now stand"
What was irrelevant about the tories leaving the Bank of England regulating the banks and Browns ba**s up with the ineffective FSA/BOE/Treasury set up who have failed totally.
Unfortunately we cannot judge where we would have been if the tories had been in power, but we do know what Labour and Brown in particular have done in 12 years plus!
Labour & Brown have ruined this country, not Mr Cameron or the tories. Even though you cannot get your head round this fact, it is obvious from blogs on every newspaper comment that many millions of taxpayers have.
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Laugh
You dont reaaaaaally believe in it though, do you....? :-)
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#201
"Sorry, you think Obama can save the UK (and Europe's) economy? How exactly?"
I never said any such thing, what I said is that he could cause the total meltdown should he decide to allow A.I.G go bust.
A.I.G going bust would be (grossly) inconvenient for the US but they would muddle through, on the other hand it would be totally disastrous for the UK and Europe.
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#202
"The absurdity of this blog is that if Gordon Brown is unable to sell himself to us then how does he possibly think he's going to sell his 'Global Grand Bargain' to Barack Obama in 30 minutes?"
It's a media Photo opportunity for both, the main business is tomorrow just down the road from the White House, do you honestly think that the two men have never spoken personally to each other on the phone (or what ever communication device) before today?!
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It isn't the giveaway keywords in the correspondents to this blog that should concern us, but those that can be read between the lines in Nick's report (see link in post #199).
"Mr Brown's address to Congress is expected to compare the battle against the global recession to the fight against European fascism in the 1940s."
(Nice to see that Nick was "on message" when he tried to compare Brown to Churchill earlier.)
Except it is really about a decade of appeasement that has left us without the weapons to fight.
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Noticing that some New Labour supporters are upset at the 'venom' aimed at just one man, let me clarify my position:
Gordon Brown, loathsome Tony Blair and all those involved the New Labour experiment have failed us - they failed us long long ago.
They should never have been elected and anyone who bought that cheap, sickly sales patter and voted for them should look at what they're buying first.
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#191 Island Doctor
Spin...Cycle...Tumbled it
You make a number of hot points...
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62 & 105
I've never read Dan Atkinson - or even heard of him. However, I did sit on some of the meetings leading to "Big Bang", specifically those dealing with the legal and financial aspects.
"Big Bang" was actually simply the term applied to the fact that the computerisation of the Stock Exchange's settlement system was switched on in one go rather than in discrete sections or via pilots.
There is an element of truth in the comment made by someone else that you might as well blame computers. By the late 1970s it had become increasingly apparent that with the growing turnover within the stock market the old system of settling trades that had little changed from the coffee shop days was no longer viable. And ever-advancing technology in the shape of computerisation provided the obvious solution.
As those who developed the system began to delve into the implications it became obvious that the jobbers and brokers could not survive. One reason for that was that they worked in partnerships where individual partners had unlimited liability. The increasing volume of trade was such that no individual had the resources to legally accept that degree of liability. There were some additional highly complex issues to do with contingent liability. Hence limited companies - and the big banks - came on to the scene.
However, it is pointless blaming Big Bang for the current situation. If we hadn't gone that route our competitors would have.
If you want to blame anyone there are two candidates. The first is the American F W Taylor whose ideas led to such concepts as work study. He believed that to encourage people to work harder there should be no limit to the amount they were paid. However, as he was around at the turn from the 19/20th centuries he could have hardly envisaged what his ideas would lead to.
The other culprit is our brilliant Prime Minister and former Chancellor. He was content to turn a blind eye to the excesses that were developing in the City because he needed the taxes generated to fund his socialist dream of pouring ever more money into the public services. It has turned out to be a Faustian pact between excessive capitalism and excessive socialism.
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According to the PoliticsHome PHI100 panel of those involved in politics, 66% of the political spectrum think Gordon Brown should apologise.
My suggestion is that he shows a bit of spine and apologises for the mess then truly shows guts by calling an election.
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Heres another nail.....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7921123.stm
How WFTC ended up leading to more divorces....
(Shouldnt it have been called.... "WTF?C"???)
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#206 Boiler
How much damage needs to be done, I wonder, for Labour party supporters to realise just what is happening?
The level of "service" provided by new Labour is at such a low level (this is separate from the level of funding) that almost all institutions are in grave danger. There is no leadership.
I would be extremely surprised if the current outlook or behaviour of this current Government improves before an election - the quality of individual is not there. They seem incapable of long-term planning. Virtually everyhting they do comes with unintended consequences.
They really do have to go. They have had their opportunity, and have stuffed it up good and proper. Noses out of the troughs and to coin a phrase......
Call an election!
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#204 Jonathan Cook
Interesting link.
Look at the list: tax cuts to individuals...tax cuts...aid to individuals...
Here is a man who believes that we the people are better stewards of our money than the State.
Contrast that with the Brown recovery "plan": "temporary" VAT reduction (12bn), non state aid to failed banks (800bn). Tax cuts? You must be joking.
They may use the same phraseology, but they are poles apart.
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#213
"They should never have been elected and anyone who bought that cheap, sickly sales patter and voted for them should look at what they're buying first."
No doubt the NuLabour supporter were making exactly the same sort of comment about Thatcher and Major in '96/7 - and by goodness many people heard those messages...
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#211 Boilerplated
It was meant as a facetious comment - Gordon Brown should call an election, New Labour are a miserable failure and a farce.
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#214
"#191 Island Doctor
Spin...Cycle...Tumbled it
You make a number of hot points..."
That's because he doesn't live in a vacuum I expect!
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#220 boilerplated
You Labourites can't argue with the facts, so you have to bring Thatcher and Major into the mix.
That was 12 years ago, live with it. We're having to.
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#220 Boilerplated
That may well be the case, however, we're not talking about Thatcher or Major - we're talking about Gordon Brown, Tony Blair and the whole nasty little New Labour experiment.
By the way, you refer to them as NuLabour. Is this to avoid negative brand association?
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#215
I think you are mixing up cause and effect.
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#215 dww
There was far more to Big Bang than you credit.
Yes, there was a very visible change to computerised quotation and dealing that practically abolished "open outcry" trading (for all except the LIFFE jockeys) overnight.
However it was accompanied by changes to the historic rules of membership of the Stock Exchange, i.e. that firms could act in dual capacity (breaking down the strict distinction between "brokers" and "jobbers") and that institutions and foreign companies could participate directly in the London market.
Aside from recognising the need for "chinese walls", the Stock Exchange was expected to conduct itself honourably and it was years before an effective surveillance operation, let alone proper regulation, was established.
Meanwhile there began a deregulation of the banking industry, that allowed other institutions such as building societies, to compete directly with the retail banks and offer a range of loans and other lucrative financial products.
As far as the building societies were concerned, most abandoned their traditional business models for the lure of demutualisation and participation in ever complex financial transactions that history shows they never properly understood.
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#217
"Heres another nail....
Looks more like grasping at straws to me - and I don't mean Jack!
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No 207 wrote: "no Rose Garden".
----- ----- ----- -----
Perhaps Obama can serenade the Golem:
I beg your pardon, I never promised you a rose garden;
Along with the sunshine, there has to be a little snow sometime.
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#218
"#206 Boiler
How much damage needs to be done, I wonder, for Labour party supporters to realise just what is happening? [...//...]"
Not sure if you actually read what I wrote @ #206, you didn't seem to be replying to anything I said, but I do agree with what you said and your conclusions - it's just that I find so many of the anti Brown comments so lacking in substance and so high in blatant insult that I feel that people are doing far more damage to the opposition parties than good - Nick's blog doesn't live in a vacuum.
I'll say again, it is for Cameron (and by extension, his supporters) to loose the next election than it is for Brown to win (if Brown thought he would win he would call a snap election) - it wouldn't be the first time a political party has blown their election chances due to far fetched boasts, hoots of derision or insults. I'm worried about any damage being done to the Conservatives. I can't put it much clearer.
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Whilst not a great fan of the Boy Scouts, I know who I would prefer to be meeting today if I were Barak Obama. One of the two leaders is nieve and knows nothing about economic matters the other is Barak Obama.
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at least you tried nick....you tried to get GB to agree that Darling's admission was an apology by this government for mistakes made....unfortunately , as usual Gb just waffled on about anything but.....
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Brown: There is the possibility of a Global New Deal in the coming months.
So, is that a bit like Kyoto for the Global Economy????????
Thought Barack Obama was talking gibberish when talking about the economy - he didn't seem to have a clue although Timothy Geithner is feeling finding it a bit tough.
When talking about Afghanistan and Pakistan, Obama believed that the US and UK had worked well together.... doesn't sound very good for our forces, more cannon fodder operations in cannon fodder equipment.
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If it's only half an hour, why have you gone Nick? It's not just the government that squanders tax payers money.
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#223
"That was 12 years ago, live with it. We're having to."
You really don't get it, history is history, it will always bite-back, you can't air-bush history out. People still hark back to Churchill, indeed Nick did so in this very blog, 12 years ago is in every adults living memory...
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Huw Edwards began talking about the body language at the Brown/Obama press conference.
Obama was slouched back in his chair looking as though he was going to slide off it and Gordon Brown was sitting bolt upright and jiggling.
Any psychologists out there?
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#224
In other words, an inconvenient truth of political history, let's try air-brushing it out...
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dwwonthew @ 215
I'm not really here now but very quickly that was a brilliant sentence in your blog entry, which I wish I'd written and neatly sums it all up:
"It has turned out to be a Faustian pact between excessive capitalism and excessive socialism."
Ltrs.
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#226 and other bloggers trying to shift the blame for the current situation back in time....
While the Tory privatisations contributed to the current situation, and should have been stopped, your historical analysis doesn't stand up.
The demutualisation of the Building Societies was nothing to do with Big Bang and was made possible by the Building Societies Act 1986.
At first few mutuals took up this option, and many resisted the efforts of carpetbaggers to force them to do so. In fact more Building Societies became limited companies in and after 1997 than under the Tories, including several of the biggest ones, with Labour encouragement or at least acquiescence. If they had wanted to stop demutualisation they could have repealed or amended the 1986 Act but they didn't.
Moreover, whether we like it or not (and personally I don't like it) Building Societies had and have been under pressure to "modernise" for a long time. Mergers had been going on for some time before 1986, and are still going on (at least four in 2008).
And Labour could have stopped the mergers, takeovers and headlong expansion of Halifax, Northern Rock, Woolwich and others after 1997 if they had wanted to. The "participation in ever complex financial transactions that history shows they never properly understood" took place under Gordon Brown.
So the implied line that it was all a Tory plot won't run...
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Goodness Nick it looks cold in Washington. I think that you should buy yourself a bunnet and stick it on your BBC expenses!
I think it was interesting that the PM turned your question about an apology into an explanation that he and the President had been discussing reform of the system that delivered too much in the way of banker bonuses etc.
ie that the apologies could be safely left to the hapless 'Little Me' Alistair Darling at home.
The wonder is it not is that no one ever really question's the Prime Minister's economic expertise. In the 2005 autumn party conference when he was Chancellor he spoke of there having been a bubble in the property market. Past tense. In this he betrayed a complete and utter ignorance of even school boy economics. Whatever he was studying in the history department at Edinburgh back in the '70s it certainly wasn't financial history. Why don't you dig out that footage and give it another airing? What is so frustrating is that George Osborne and his research team of zillions don't dig out this stuff. It really is pathetic. Which is why it is left to wise grey beards like the rather brilliant Trevor Kavanagh in The Sun to do their work for them. But let's not leave it to Trevor. How about the BBC and the Tories putting their wheel to the shoulder for one last push. And get this total idiot off the political stage. And fast.
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Oh I meant to say Nick, while wiling away the long hours on the flight home you might want to click on to your BBC colleague Evan Davis' Blog. On the penultimate blog Finding the Exit you'll find some rather good stand up material that I wrote for Evan with one or two quite funny political gags about London 2012 and the dreary, dreary, dreary Nick Clegg. Hope they raise a chuckle!
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Oh and if you are having difficulty sleeping Nick, why not click on anyoldfun and enjoy the rather fantastic sounds of rock band Lincoln City. I am very reliably informed that they are very much Alistair Darling's least favourite local band.... which is pretty much all the recommendation that any band needs. But these guys are genuinely overflowing with talent. You heard it hear first in Nick Robinson blogland!
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Last one, Nick. Promise. The other thing I meant to mention is this. Isn't it nice that when you read this blog you realise that the bloggers are actually reading the other blogs and responding to them, rather than just having their say without reference to what has gone before. The one thing that always surprises me is that so many bloggers seem to view you as a red under the bed pro Labour figure when the reality is that the Labour party senior spin merchants see you as being more akin to the great satan. Interesting that. It never occured to me that you had anything other than a healthy scepticism for all things Brown. And quite right too. But at least unlike the truly, truly, ghastly Alan Johnson the PM doesn't eat spam for breakfast!
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boilerplated
I know it's history and I',m not trying to air brush anything out, but whether we like it or not (and a lot of us do not) we're stuck with this sham of a government until we get the chance to vote them out.
I have also lived through much better governments than this one!
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shellingout #24, extremesense, purpledoggs and all others who share the below view. . .
"This partnership is so special that Obama can only spare half an hour to speak to our PM, who has travelled 3000 odd miles to see him.
Says it all really."
There you go, assume the worst in us. Be as pessamistic and cynical as possible!! Don't for one second stop to think that perhaps, just may be, it might be the slightest bit possible that Obama sees Brown's standing amoungst the British people and is based on those observations, making a pretty relyable hypothisis that Brown will be out of office next year. Don't assume that he is not therefore concluding that he probably should not get too close to Brown, seeing that most likely the real reforms will come from his cooperation with Cameron in the future, and as was demonstrated in the Bush-Brown partnership, it is rather difficult for world leaders who get along extremely well with a leader of a nation, to suddenly turn on a dime and instantly be just as close with the leader who takes the previous leader's place.
No, that would require far too much maturity and wisdom. Instead presume as you, and so, so many of your fellow compatriots do that all US presidents without fail see the UK as nothing more than our own personal slave, of which we send into the world to do our evil bidding!! Assume that our plattitudes about "shared values," "common history bla bla bla" are all just a way of fooling the UK into thinking that they have any kind of sway with us whatsoever and furthermore that we care in the slightest bit wht they think or know about anything!!
You all continue to baffle me!! If a US president is close to a UK prime minister and gives him/her the whole 9 yeards with respect to press confrences in the Rose garden, speaches to congress etc, then in your eyes the UK is the US's poodle/lacky/slave/fill in subserviant term here. But if a US president distances him/herself from a UK prime minister, then the US couldn't give two hoots about the UK and only looks out for its own/wants to be the senior partner/has no friends, only interests/fill in selfishly desirable term here.
I'm not saying that in the past, and likely in the future, US presidents haven't, and won't let the scale of our power in the world get to their heads and mistreat our allies as a result, and for that you have every right to raise hell!!! But these kinds of insessent insults of both your and my countries are just downright offensive, hurtful and untrue!
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erm you just posted a new blog.......it has now disappeared...! censorship or cockup?
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I think it was more illuminating what Obama did not say rather than what he did. He seemed to gloss over a lot of questions regarding the economy preferring to talk about the special relationship with regard to Iraq and afghanistan.
I felt the body language was stiff and difficult, frankly I was embarrassed by Brown. He behaved more like subservant than a world leader.
Obama made it clear that it was a failure in regulation which caused the crisis. That points the blame directly at Brown, and Brown did not even have the sense to realise it
The whole thing I thought was uncomfortable to watch.
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I think we all know that these days the "special relationship" begins with Britain bending over.
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fairlopian_tubester #39
""What, if anything, does that tell us?"
That the President has far more important things on his agenda than a "state visit" from a small nation somewhere beyond the periphery of his vision?"
Do you not realise Bush has left the White House? Or do you all just simply hold the United States and its people in contempt no matter who leads it?
Yeah you're right. You're worthless!! You didn't, and don't have anything useful to contribute to the world. You didn't enspire Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincon, FDR and John F. Kennedy. You didn't enspire Mark Twane and Ernist Hemingway. You don't continue to enspire people today. Frankly I don't even know why you still exist.
Nothing makes you all happy!!
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I cannot believe that after a 5+ hrs flight and a 30 mins audiance with his greatness ;B Ob
Our PM can be lauded as having a special relationship ; even the boy scouts of America will get longer.
surely it is time we recognise this is not the time for spin!!!!
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Since we're talking equality here, perhaps sacilian29 or someone else could enlighten me as to why only one US president (Reagan) has thus far given a speach before parlament compared to coming up on 5 British prime ministers giving speaches to congress?
P.S. Sacilian, I didn't know it was expected or manditory for every single UK prime minister to be offered the chance to address congress. I thought it was a rare honor displaying the connection between our countries after time has passed for a prime minister and a president to form a bond and if a president so feels that an offer would be appropriate to extend. So in the future, if any future UK prime minister is not offered the chance to speack before congress, you all should take that as nothing less than a slap in the face of the highest order?
Am I to assume that?
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#72 shellingout
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7843124.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/7685151.stm
Apparently they are.
And despite making a loss last year, they are all going to get a 10% bonus for it!
Makes you sick really, the company I work for posted record profits last year, and I was happy to get 4%!!
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#233
Why is Nick covering the Obama - Brown meeting
Because this meeting isn't happening in a vacuum, there is more than this one meeting to report on.
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#248 Rash
I think you better get some cream for that.
Beyond your infection I really can't see the relevance of your rant. Are you trying to say I am holding the USA in contempt, or that I - sorry, we all - are from an inferior race?
Still, everyone's entitled to an opinion, and yours is truly "enspired".
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#246
"I think it was more illuminating what Obama did not say rather than what he did."
Wow, you know what he didn't say, are you clairvoyant?...
"Obama made it clear that it was a failure in regulation which caused the crisis. That points the blame directly at Brown, and Brown did not even have the sense to realise it"
When has the UK been responsible for such regulation in the USA?
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Global finance and global trade are vital to all of us, and need not long continue in recession if the London Conference on April 2nd goes well. For that reason, the meetings between US and UK officials are probably more productive than the Obama-Brown chats.
But none would take place unless the two heads meet cordially. That's why the Brown Address to the US Congress will be critical in helping to mobilise US public opinion. Obama knows that too. Which is probably why he's as keen on establishing a positive relationship with whoever is the British PM of the moment.
UK Party speculations that depend on whether the UK gets growing again before the May 2010 election are, in the great scheme of things, much less important than ensuring joint global actions .
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Can't believe how excrutiating those tv pics were of Brown begging Obama to tickle his tummy.
Jeezo! Can't he tell how daft he looks? He's a stumbling embarressment.
(What's the difference between the American President and the British PM ?
Ans: One's Obama the other's a bamstick)
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#249
"I cannot believe that after a 5+ hrs flight and a 30 mins audiance with his greatness ;B Ob
Our PM can be lauded as having a special relationship ; even the boy scouts of America will get longer.
surely it is time we recognise this is not the time for spin!!!!"
As I said before in a reply, would you be making such a profound statement had it been Cameron, Osboune, Cable's or some other none Labour MP?
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#5, Mr Moe & #57 EWelshman and many others
oh dear, I'm going to have to repeat myself again.
Gordon Brown was elected, by the good people of Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath ( I think). The point about not being elected as PM is a stupid one, as we DON'T ELECT THE PRIME MINISTER.
This is not an endorsement of Brown by any means. Frankly he is begining to make me wish we had Blair back...ok I know that I didn't trust him any more than I trust Brown but at least he has presentation if not substance. Whereas Brown reminds me of some substitute teachers I had.....
However, most importantly, and I dare people to disagree with me is that I now have the feeling that I did at the end on the Major Govt. No matter what is said or done, there is the feeling of a very very tired, distrusted Govt.
Major ran to the end of his term hoping for re-election as the economy recovered.
Unfortunately for Brown things are still more or less at the bottom of the cycle. He knows there is no chance to win, so wait it out. Cameron knows there is no instant fix, so he is happy for Brown to take the flak for the time being.
Election now in or in 16 months, there is more pain to come.
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Hardly a ringing endorsement from Mr President.
If you listen carefully, we in the UK have been demoted; no longer the closest ally of the USA but our new status is as "one of the closest allies...'
Well done, Mr Clown, you haven't even been able to keep us in pole position!
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Interesting that the tories are turning against Obama, given the way they tried to hail his election as a rallying cry for change, and they were part of the same deal (yes it was a joke hearing them try to equate Willie Hague, 'Dave' Cameron and little thingy Osbourne with Obama...but they still tried).
The penny seems to have dropped for the tories that Obama and Brown ARE singing from the same hymn sheet.
Cameron's lies about the 'golden legacy' of Ken Clarke and trying to claim that Gordon Brown is responsible for every country in the developed world being hit by the financial crisis are being exposed.
As Obama himself reportedly said of Cameron after meeting him....'what a light weight".
Stick to PR Dave.
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I just might be in a minority of 1 - but maybe brown is going to put our relationship on the right level. No more lap dog of the Blair,Major,Thatcher era's and possibly earlier - I can't remember.
The US is our best friend - but our partners are in europe. We must support our friend - but as every girl knows when her friend is with the wrong man - she needs to be told and so the UK must no longer be afraid to tell the US when it is wrong.
Brown's speech suggests he is not afraid to say what he believes is right - he must not be swayed from his views to accommodate those of the US in the mistaken belief that friends have always agree with a friends views as have our previous leaders labour and tory alike.
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fairlopian_tubester #253. . .
"#248 Rash I really can't see the relevance of your rant. Are you trying to say I am holding the USA in contempt, or that I - sorry, we all - are from an inferior race?"
Quite the contrary. Re-read the post carefully. What I was "trying to say" all be it in a sarcastic maner which apparently did not go down well with you, was that I believe you should stop denagrating the UK and the US's (or at least the American people's and Democratic politicions) view of it!! That quote of yours which I referenced I think is selfexplanitory and were why I felt compelled to input my two cents.
One would have to be positively insane to not understand the British people's contempt for a man who has lead a party that has been in power for a dozen years!! But in my mind, it is one thing to atak Brown; it is something entirely different to atak the views of the American people, or the new American president toward the United Kingdom!! That is what I perceived you as doing, and that is why I responded. And the majority of the American people still view the UK as an independent, freethinking insparational nation with a lot to offer the world and a lot to teach us (starting with, in my opinion, health care and education!)
"Still, everyone's entitled to an opinion, and yours is truly "enspired"."
I do hope that this was written with sincerity.
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mrsuribton #261: '"I just might be in a minority of 1 - but maybe brown is going to put our relationship on the right level. No more lap dog of the Blair,Major,Thatcher era's and possibly earlier - I can't remember."
I don't think Major was a lap dog of Bush 1, and Thatcher was certainly no lap dog of Reagan!
Other than that I wholeheartedly agree with your sentament (well, all except the part about Brown finally putting the relationship on an equal footing.( Did you not see how he behaved during the press confrence? Is he a confadent, mutual respected ally or a nervy 14-year old going out on their first date?
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Brown's synical attempt to influence President Obama was unconvincing. The President has been well briefed about this dysfunctional PM. After all it was Brown who quite catagorically and publically stated 'all the contagion of this financial crisis started in America'.
Brown will again use unmitigating cheek to compare today's financial depression to that of the Nazi/Fascist era of the 1930s. He is desperate to have himself compared to Churchill. How sad.
To hijack history is the latest attempt by a confused PM to con the public. The American public are more astute that he gives them credit for and President Obama will be watching as Brown digs an even deeper hole in which to be buried.
Has President Obama heard about our Chancellor Darling's admission, 'Gordon Brown's regulation of the banks was a failure'. This proves what many have been saying all along, 'Brown was part architect of this financial crisis'. He was certainly responsible for our domestic financial ills.
Brown's mismanagement of the economy for 12 years speaks volumes. He remains in denial and refuses to apologise or face reality.
President Obama will certainly be well aware of the British public's mistrust of this PM; Congress will go through the motions and listen politely, but remain totally unconvinced. They will not take advice from an arsonist now in charge of the fire house.
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I can just see the rolling of the eyes skyward in disbelief as Gordon Clown left the Oval office to comments like: What a self-delusional lunatic he's living in cloud cuckoo land no wonder those Limeys can't stand him.
As for addressing Congress this is just a polite American way of giving a man enough rope to hang himself. On past performance it will surely be a pathetic spectacle. Brown embarrasses me every time I have to admit that I'm a Born and bred Brit (England).
Come on Gordo show that you are really made of something and quit now for all our sakes.
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#244 norashdecisions
You really take the cake!
My comments were neither aimed at Obama, nor the American people.
What I meant was, that Brown is seen by the British people here much the same as he is obviously seen by the Americans. Tony Blair was given the red carpet treatment and he isn't our PM. THAT'S what I was getting at. It was merely an observation about Brown's standing in the world as viewed by other countries, and nothing more.
Gordon Brown has been saying for months that our recession is the fault of the Americans and the Banks, although I doubt he'd have the courage to say it to your faces. This smacks of hypocrisy to me, and plenty of other people who comment on this site. If Gordon Brown had done his job properly and regulated the FSA properly and diligently when he was Chancellor, we probably wouldn't be in this mess. The way in which other countries have handled their finances is no concern of ours.
I don't think for one moment that Gordon Brown, or any other PM has, or has had, any sway with an American President at all. If you had read all my previous posts, you would have understood this.
More to the point, I don't remember ever saying that we had been mistreated by the Americans. Perhaps you would be kind enough to tell me exactly where I said that.
I do wonder though, if he would have been the first to be invited if we weren't fighting in Afghanistan.
I do think you should get your facts right before you start bleating about how hard-done-by you feel the Americans are.
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shellingout #266. . .
I apologise. I got the same impression from your post that I did from several other people's posts (one which is now I see somewhat misguided,) that Obama giving Brown only a half an hour's visit after all that travel sandwitched between a bunch of domestic business = Obama, or the US, not caring one iota about the UK. Again my apologese.
"I don't think for one moment that Gordon Brown, or any other PM has, or has had, any sway with an American President at all. If you had read all my previous
posts, you would have understood this."
Well the post which I referenced above is the first of yours on this particular thread, and I don't have time to paroos through all the other entries to get a sense of your thoughts on this matter. So can you please further elaborate on this sentament? What leads you to draw this conclusion? Can you please give examples? I, personally, somewhat respectfully disagree. As mentioned above, I think certainly past presidents (not the least of which Bush 2!) have let our position in the world comunity get to their heads, and have thusly acted aragant, daring to presume what other world leader thought and felt about everything, talking at and not with our adversaries, while speaking for and acting on behalf of without prior consent or agreement and not letting our allies speack and act for themselves and on their own behalf. But I don't think that this has been the case all the time, and regarding the UK I think the most pertanent example is the Thatcher/Reagan alliance. It was here where we were more of the mutual respectful ally that we should be all the time!
"More to the point, I don't remember ever saying that we had been mistreated by the Americans. Perhaps you would be kind enough to tell me exactly where
I said that."
I'm not accusing you of saying that. But don't you think that a president not listening to a prime minister's views and respecting and compromising with them on problems is mistreatment? Or do you define it as something else?
"I do wonder though, if he would have been the first to be invited if we weren't fighting in Afghanistan."
I don't. Remember, Afghanistan is the just, fair war. Iraq was the illegal one. The French, Italians, Canadians, Australians, all have forces in Afghanistan alongside ours. So if whether a nation had forces in Afghanistan was the determining factor in whether that nation's leader got to be the first through the doors of the Ovle office, Obama, in an atempt to rebuild our badly damaged image abroad, could've just as easily hosted the prime mimister of Canada or Australia first. I think he chose to host Brown because while he desires to rebuild our standing with the rest of the world's nations, he realises that the UK is our closest ally, and believes that things must be fine tuned between the US and UK before we make any atempts at repairing damaged relations elsewhere.
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What Brown says to The Congress will have diddly squat importance in the context of the grand scheme of things. It will merely be a chance to deliver a party political broadcast to a captive audience of friendly hosts many of whose voters don't even know who Gordon Brown is even when prompted by a photograph.
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norashdecisions
I agree with you about Thatcher and Reagan. Theirs was a special relationship in the real sense of the words.
Tony Blair was a veritable master at shmoozing. I often wonder if his relationship with Bush was a useful and lucrative ladder upon which to climb when he left Downing Steet, and spoke at many dinners in the US.
Obama has got to deal with the problems in the US first, which is what I think he is planning to do. Brown's visit was an occupational hazard, and one which would have to be got out of the way at some point in time. Sooner, rather than later, was the best option for Obama. I also think that Brown's view of the "special relationship" and Obama's differ somewhat, which may not be a bad thing. As you know, Brown's popularity rating here is at an all time low, and I'm sure he hopes that rubbing shoulders with Obama would add new kudos to his position. Once we have a new PM in Cameron, or whoever takes over the reins, we can start to build bridges in earnest.
I'm afraid I don't share your view that Brown would have been first on the list if we hadn't sent troops to Afghanistan, and I wouldn't blame Obama at all if this was the case. He has to put the US's interests first. We have to remain allies whilst the war is going on, but I think Obama will have bigger fish to fry if the US and UK troops are ever pulled out.
Brown is trying to fill Blair's shoes, and failing miserably. He is trying to be too many things to too many people and getting nothing right. I think he is probably one of the worst PM's this country has ever had.
A lot of people in this country do not think very highly of our Politicians at the moment, and their behaviour leaves a lot to be desired. I imagine this happens the world over, but I can only comment on what happens in the UK.
So there you have it, and I hope I've answered your questions.
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