Torture allegations and UK-US relations
David Davis, the former Shadow Home Secretary, is demanding that ministers make a statement about whether Britain was complicit in the torture of a British resident held at Guantanamo Bay and whether the American government has threatened to withdraw intelligence co-operation with Britain if details of the case are revealed.
Mr Davis has just raised a point of order on the floor of the House of Commons this afternoon in response to a ruling in the High Court by Lord Justice Thomas in the case of Binyam Mohamed, who has alleged British involvement in torture inflicted on him in Pakistan, Morocco and Afghanistan.
The ruling sounds as if it could be political dynamite, since it involves alleged torture and alleged bullying of a British court by the American administration even though it is now led by President Obama. I should stress that I have yet to see the judgement for myself.
Watch this space.
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
David Davis, our Civil Liberties hero! How long till he is back in the shadow cabinet? the sooner the better.
Complain about this comment
If HMG is complicit in the torture of a british resident then the foreign secretary must resign and resign immediately.
There is no place for torture conducted by agents of the crown or on their behalf by third parties.
Torture is anaethema to a civilised people.
Not in my name !
Complain about this comment
Seriously tho, nothing would surprise me about the limp wristed approach this Labour government has taken with recent American foreign policy. Only to willing to roll over and have our bellies tickled.
The British government should stand up for British principles not political expediency.
Shame on us for letting it happen.
Complain about this comment
Where is the 'dynamite'? 'Damp squb' more like. I am neither surprised that we have been involved in the 'torture' of prisoners in the 'war against terror' or that we are beholden to the US for much of our intelligence, a privilage that will be 'withdrawn' if we make too many waves.
In any case, the New Adminstration will have a lot of work to do and it will be some time before the likes of the CIA tow the 'new' Party Line.
As for 'torture' read 'a few stress positions and loss of a bit of sleep', nasty, but not in the same league as the treatment prisoners can expect in the hands of Mr Bin Laden's followers.
Complain about this comment
Don't get excited.
It will end in an inquiry that will last until after the next election to kick it into the long grass.
PS
are we in "Depression"?
If Brown's brain can't trust his mouth to deliver how can we trust him on anything else.
Complain about this comment
The pressure is being piled on this labour government now from all directions.
To avoid any further embarassment politics here needs a complete overhaul and that means this incumbent government resigning before even more damage is done.
Although I do not wish the present mess to be dumped on any other party it is in the country's interests that when dealing with a world financial crisis and a new US president with his own vision a clean sweep here is the best policy.
Complain about this comment
Does the fact that everything is still waiting Moderation mean the BBC is buckling again.
This is extraordinary rendition and territoriality meeting head on
Her we have someone tortured in three countries but not UK nor US to create deniability
When UK ends up unable to deny US bullies
Did our sercurity services help the Yanks ?
Are they vicariously liable ie did they stand by and let him be tortured ?
Complain about this comment
Great blog Nick Robinson!
I am familiar with this case, and yes, the alleged torture that Binyam Mohammed suffered is appalling.
What's more, as with many Guantanamo detanees, he was seized in Pakistan (sold by the Pakistani police to the Americans for ransom far from the 'battlefield') and the case constructed against him doesn't fit with the timeline that would need to have been followed.
If there is any hint of British involvement, and I wouldn't be surprised, then charges need to be brought against those responsible (however high up they may be) - and swiftly.
Also, if there is evidence that the American Administration is bullying us then, again, those officials who have fallen for this bullying need to be fired.
Any country trying to bully us must learn that it doesn't work - whether it's the Saudis or the Americans.
I think this is a sign that we need a far reaching enquiry into not just the Iraq War but the 'war on terror' - NOW not when New Labour are long gone.
Complain about this comment
What do you think?
An illegal war in Iraq, a dodgy dossier and you think the government might be innocent on this one?
Call an election.
Complain about this comment
Of course we were involved Nick. That's what New Labour were all about at the time.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
Any more facts to go on????
........... sounds like the government could successfully block any news on this with appeals, injunctions and then an enquiry.....
An urgent statement from Miliband to parliament is needed.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
these allegations are not the first to come into the public domain.
There is an injunction against my son which was imposed by the High Court. This whole episode is shameful. We are not innocent on this issue, the truth must come out and support given to those who want the truth to come out rather than those who wish that it would just go away.
Complain about this comment
long live the land of the free and the home of the brave...
Complain about this comment
If true then not only should the ministers responsible be prosecuted but there should by rights be a vote of no confidence in the government. This is TOTALLY unaceptable.
Complain about this comment
Why are the British MPs more concerned with foreign nationals than their own constituents? It is palpably obvious that this person was up to no good and therefore left themselves open to retribution for their collusion with people who would do us harm. I say let us deport him quickly, enough is enough, I am retired and the government gives me the princely sum of 6.5k per annum this person will cost the country 5 times that I am very angry.
Complain about this comment
Brown out
Complain about this comment
This really is political dynamite!
Expect some furious flusterings now as MP's desperately try to uncover what really happened
I truly hope that we were not involved in this alleged abuse of prisoners
The USA will pull intelligence in a heartbeat if they think that we're going to try and prove this in any way shape or form
Best to wait and see if the allegations are true though. I suspect the phrase 'where theres blame theres a claim' might be ringing round a few heads..........
Complain about this comment
Let's face it - if this is true and the British Government is found to have supported torture and allowed a British Court to be bullied by a foreign power, the Government must resign.
I stress IF though because I have a feeling the facts will be somewhat complicated.
Complain about this comment
The Government will use "national security" as an excuse not to publish anything which embarrasses their so-called allies. First it dropped the Saudi bribery case and now it is complicit in covering up American torture.
Craven. Stupid. Pathetic.
Complain about this comment
It's crazy that people are getting so worked up about these Guantanamo inmates. There's a story on the BBC site about 10% of released Guantanamo inmates have been known to re-join their terror units. Plus there must be many more who the authorities don't know about.
David Davis is wasting valuable House of Commons time probably in order to raise his own profile. He must understand that torture is the only way to get valuable information out of these indoctrinated and hardened terrorists, British-born or otherwise.
Complain about this comment
#4
It isnt a few stress positions its abdominal beatings and having his fingernails ripped out with a pair of pliers.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
No said: "PS
are we in "Depression"?
If Brown's brain can't trust his mouth to deliver how can we trust him on anything else."
----- ----- ----- -----
Oh come on, this was just a slip of the tongue from the Golem.
You see, he has a problem saying "recession", after all, he avoided saying it for months and months. So, he started with the "r" and then his feeble minded scratched around for another word and it came up with "depression".
Complain about this comment
There's an analogy here in the behaviour of Scotland Yard in Kenya. Called to investigate one political murder, and involved in another murder of a British citizen, they avoided all evidence linking to the then president, Daniel arap Moi.
Once Moi had been replaced, those investigations proceeded in a different light, but it was too late to bring justice in either case.
While Bush was president, the UK was complicit in "special rendition" and, at the very least, turned a blind eye to torture at Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere.
Now we have a successor to Bush, who has repudiated those policies, we fight among ourselves to clamber on the Obama bandwagon.
Pander to the powerful, that's how we conduct foreign policy. Now where's that Chinese delegation?
Complain about this comment
'As for 'torture' read 'a few stress positions and loss of a bit of sleep', nasty, but not in the same league as the treatment prisoners can expect in the hands of Mr Bin Laden's followers.'
Phew, that's ok then! Don't need to worry about these silly little people suffering from waterboarding and other actions contrary to the Geneva Convention, in the name of freedom! At least they no doubt got lots of evidence (that any fair court would throw out immediately). Don't know what these softies are moaning about. Thanks for making that clear, FalmouthBoy!
Complain about this comment
Huh? Of course the UK Government was complicit with the US torture of prisoners. Everyone knew that the US was torturing people in Gitmo, even if the US did use a different name for their treatment. Since the UK Government did nothing to stop the torture it became complicit. Then there are all the CIA flights that landed in the UK with prisoners to be taken to be tortured, which the UK Government did nothing about again making the UK Government complicit.
As to the reason they allowed themselves to become complicit I am guessing it was down to our Special Relationship and the fact the Blair idolised the US, often at our detriment. I applaud Mr Davis for raising this, though I doubt that it will get anywhere.
I am a realist, I understand that normally unacceptable things happen during war, but much of this happened outside the theatre of war and appears to be completely institutional. Those that authorised this and directly supported it need to be brought to account, but that will never happen.
Complain about this comment
By the time this gets moderated, this story will be old hat.
Anyway, I have it on good authority the government knew nothing about this...
Well, when I say good authority, that's what this councillor I know said.
Well, when I say councillor, he worked for the council.
Well, when I say worked...
Alcohol - the cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems.
Complain about this comment
I am again disgusted at my country, led by clowns who were put in position by moral cowards.
I am even more saddened though, as i am not surprised having believed that Uk forces of the secretive nature, were/are involved in torture.
This Labour government are the most despicable that i have ever known, and i hated Thatcherite Britain. Having thought as i type , why should it surprise or anger us that this government is complicit in torture when it spies on its own populace and declared war on a foreign nation illegally.
Complain about this comment
I am not in the least bit surpised that this country has been involved in torture. There is a murky world out there that most of don't know about or want to know about.
Yes torture is abhorrent but there is a question of degree and in the aftermath of 9/11 etc I can understand the desire to do whatever was necessary. I suspect this is not the only case and would have happened if the tories had been in power.
The problem is that we as a democracy cannot preach to the rest of world and not be whiter than white ourselves. Unfortunately, on this occasion the government may have been caught and its on Gordon Brown's watch. I can't help thinking about Napolean's comments about lucky generals!
Complain about this comment
"As for 'torture' read 'a few stress positions and loss of a bit of sleep'"
Pakistan, Morocco and Afghanistan? I rather fear you've missed the point.
Complain about this comment
Can the Foreign Minister disclose the materials that relate to torture practice and leave out that relate to risks of national security? This is all governements discretion.
The judge's contention is quite simple. He wants informations that concern to public interest be relesed. Is it too much to ask in a democratice system?
Complain about this comment
So that may be good bye Milliband...
Much as I like people getting what they deserve, with Brown dubious mental state I am not sure it will be good to dirupt his routine like this.
Then again at least david will have jack straw to keep him company away from the front bench.
Nick, now that Crick is stoking this up, can we expect you to give the Straw story the same high profile that osborne got? Maybe think about doing the mandleson/oleg story at the same time...
Complain about this comment
#6. virtualsilverlady
"To avoid any further embarassment politics here needs a complete overhaul and that means this incumbent government resigning before even more damage is done."
Will that actually make any difference? Won't you be back here in a few short years' time? Have you not in fact been here many, many ties before?
"Although I do not wish the present mess to be dumped on any other party it is in the country's interests that when dealing with a world financial crisis and a new US president with his own vision a clean sweep here is the best policy."
Yes, a clean sweep is a good policy.
But if you sweep the streets and don't make use of litter bins, are you not just letting the dirt build up once again?
I suggest you ditch the system not just those that are at the control. You need constitutional change, a parliament for England and quite possibly PR. THEN you just might be able to move forward. What say you?
:-)
Complain about this comment
I like David Davis
Theres a wiff of conviction about the man.
Poor old Gordon Brown, spends a decade waiting for the job of his dreams and its been nothing but a bloody nightmare.
Complain about this comment
1.Bring back David Davies
Complain about this comment
er....since when does hitting the 'space bar' constitute hitting 'return'.
Right where was I.....
oh, I can't be bothered now.
Call an election
Complain about this comment
Are the tories saying that the British Government should take responsibility for everyone who has ever lived in Britain, no matter what their nationality or where actually are living or have lived? Seems like political point scoring to me.
Complain about this comment
The judgment can be found here
http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/judgment_guidance/judgments/mohamed210808.htm
t
Complain about this comment
Apparently Number 10 is denying that the PM knew anything about the threat of withdrawal of US intelligence assistance. I believe the two very respected independent High Court judges. A statement should be made in the House of Commons by the foreign secretary immediately.
Complain about this comment
In this story the truth is obscured in so many ways, it is hard to know where to start.
Torture? No such thing.
Uncomfortable, yes, but not even a cause of permanent injury or placing the subject at risk of death.
British resident? No such thing.
This man lived here for a few years, leaving in 2001 apparently to undergo military training in Afghanistan. he has not been back, and frankly, I wouldn't want him back. If David Davis is fool enough to want him to return, perhaps he can give him house room.
Since leaving he has apparently been involved in a 'dirty 'bomb plot mixing conventional explosive and radioactive material.
Since being arrested he claims to have been injected with heroin to get him addicted
I din't believe a word.
Complain about this comment
We wont get a striaght answer from the bunch of crooks that pass themselves off as HMG.
They will hide behind anything rather than give a straight answer - and even when they do (e.g. admitting we are in a Depression) they then claim it is a slip of the tongue. (Tho' I cannot recall when a slip of the tongue meant that you were NOT telling the truth)
Milliband must come to the House now and tellk the truth. Then - if the truth is that which has been reported - he and other complicit ministers (e.g. Jack Straw as a former Foreign Secretary) must immediately be sacked - they should not be allowed the opportunity to try and scramble some form of dignity by resigning.
Complain about this comment
'It is palpably obvious that this person was up to no good and therefore left themselves open to retribution for their collusion with people who would do us harm.'
I would suggest, Blogord, that you have a quick perusal of Bad Men, by Clive Stafford Smith. This is an excellent and eye-opening read which refers to the cases of many at Gitmo, one of whom, Binyam Mohamed, is quite clearly and blatantly shown to be a victim of what might politely be called a miscarriage of 'justice', all because of the myopic determination of one regime's (Dubya's) efforts to create a status of fear amongst its populace.
Complain about this comment
My wife is American and I have lived there. The USA is a fabulous place and a fabulous democracy (in stark contrast to our own), but never believe that America does anything but look after its own interests. By swearing to uphold the constitution the American president is swearing to protect the US not us.
Complain about this comment
This "news item" is utterly surreal. Have the BBC and David Davies not read Craig Murray's Murder in Samarkand? I really cannot believe that they are oblivious to this and many, many blog discussions on the issue.
That the UK is complicit in torture, and believes it is OK to use intelligence obtained by such means, has been common knowledge for years.
Complain about this comment
Why has this taken so long to be aired publically? For the uninitiated and the naive Google RJ Hillhouse and the outsourced miltary and intelligence companies.
There is a whole stack of activities taking place including the most reprehensible torture imaginable in Iraq and Afghanistan that is totally removed from Congressional and Parliamentary oversight. The money to support this does NOT come from defence budgets. It is all done on the quiet.
Everyone in the UK and US governments are complicit in this. But as the detention camps are outsourced politicians have been able to claim deniability. Guantanamo is different as it is run by the US Army on an Army base, and you can bet your bottom dollar that members of the UK intelligence services will have been present. Oh, and they will have been seconded to an outsourced intelligence company so Whitehall can claim plausible deniability.
Complain about this comment
What's the betting there'll be another whitewash?
Complain about this comment
6. At 2:37pm on 04 Feb 2009, virtualsilverlady wrote:
Although I do not wish the present mess to be dumped on any other party it is in the country's interests that when dealing with a world financial crisis and a new US president with his own vision a clean sweep here is the best policy.
======
It's called 'honest' government. This lot wouldn't know what the words mean - or be able to spell them.
Complain about this comment
I don't care ..... as it wasn't me!
Complain about this comment
Nick: "I should stress that I have yet to see the judgement for myself."
Isn't that the whole point of what Davies is saying?!?
By the way, if the government is concerned about embarrassing America through a revelation of this sort - well that is rather nonsensical given American officials have already admitted to torture.
John Yoo wrote last week that waterboarding had been authorised by George Bush, and Susan Crawford told the Washington Post that Mohamed Al Qatani had been tortured in Guantanamo Bay.
So, one has to ask, who exactly is afraid of another torture revelation?
Complain about this comment
So now our courts take orders from the US government under pressure from our own government!
Let's hope that Obama reverses the policy but if, as appears to be the case, UK ministers kowtowed to pressure from the Bush-Cheney regime in this way that is an absolute disgrace. They should be sacked but who will sack them? Since they have no shame they won't resign, just appoint a whitewash enquiry.
What does it take to bring back the rule of law? This country badly needs safeguards against the misuse of Government power but many people are too preoccupied with celebrity gossip and narrow self-interest to care.
Complain about this comment
i suspect if you say alledgedly b/4 every word you type it will pass the moderator ...but here goes...
1)iIf we allowed American planes to land at british airbases carrying prisoners (for torture in european sites ?)as has already been acknowleged by the gov't ,then it is almost certain that we have also been complicit in these new torture allegations.
2)The gov't definitely sexed up the Iraq WMD dossiers as reported by gilligan in order to enable the iraq attacks to go ahead ...its unfortunate that ,despite a ruling agaist the gov't that the full legal advice given by the Lord Chancillor should be made available under the FOI act, nothing has yet been published
3)If we can stoop so low as to alledgedly torture our own nationals ,could we stoop that little bit lower and kill them....Dr D Kelly?
4)Tony Blair must have got his war medals off G bush for doing something illegal....otherwise it would have been in Cherie's and Campbells memoires...and crash gordon dis-appeared at the time so it is obvious he didn't want to take any credit for what was happening
5)Jack Straw keeps getting jobs in the gov't .....so either Gord is keeping him close by in order that he can sack him when the detail gets out or Jack knows too much and has threatened Gord he will spill the beans thus ensuring the demise of the labour party for the forseeable future
But,....when all is said and done ,if the person who was tortured had been involved in terrorism and been involved in attacking british soldiers or civilians then IT SERVES HIM RIGHT
Complain about this comment
We are all aware that if you give in to a bully then the situation usually gets worse. We must always adhere to the laws of this country first, despite the so-called "special relationship".
Complain about this comment
BROWN OUT!
LABOUR OUT!
Complain about this comment
There must be a full and open explanation by the Government to the allegations.
Although a firm supporter of the USA policy on Iraq, Afghanistan and its anti-terror measures I completely oppose any use of torture. Any such actions are wholly unacceptable in a civilised democracy.
Perhaps 'rendition' of terrorist suspects is not the best method of transporting captured enemy combatants but it is not entirely different from the Allies' transfer of WW2 Nazi POWS to various parts of the world.
However, I would also like to know how a man who claims to have suffered dreadful and inhumane treatment is cognisant with all 3 countries where he claims it happens? Remarkably lax control by the security agencies!
Complain about this comment
What's the point of asking Labour ministers to make statements to the House of Commons? They will just lie anyway. All together now ministers, we know nothing of these matters.
This is a serious matter, but I just don't believe we will know the truth until we have a change of government.
Complain about this comment
What is all this talk on the main article of David Davies being a "Senior" Tory MP? He is a backbencher, get your facts right! I never hear Charles Clarke called a "Senior" labour MP or any other minsiter/shadow minsiter who has quit/been sacked. David Davies is a political opportunist of the worst sort and is a backbencher for one reason only, his judgement is considered flawed by the rest of his party!
Complain about this comment
Next move by Brown and Milliband is very predictable - rollout Baldrick Burnham to slander David Davies and allege this is all about his personal life. Its time for the courts to stand up and be counted since we cannot look to the govt to protect us. The judge should publish and be damned and haul the PM and FM up for contempt if they try to interfere.
Complain about this comment
Nick:
Why has David Davis raised this issue? If he wants a statement from the Foreign Sec. should the shadow FS not be leading on the demand? Did Cameron/Hague know he was going to make the remarks?
The reaction of boabycat and others proves he has achieved his main aim of his comments. Publicity! He managed get himself into TV studios within 45 minutes of the news. Hmmmmm.
Complain about this comment
RobinJD and Comment9 on 'illegal war' and 'dodgy dossier'.
Which 'illegal' war are you referring to?
I was not aware US-UK and other armed forces of the willing had embarked on any illegal military campaign: Please print details of the Legal Judgement that sustains your allegation.
A 'dodgy dossier'? I could be wrong, but, I surmise you are referring to documents submitted to Parliament by PM Blair prior to the invasion of Saddam's Iraq. In which case as some 600+ MPs read and voted to accept the Intelligence Reports etc. compiled at the time I wonder whether the use of 'dodgy' is advisable as compared with 'debateable' or 'now shown to be erroneous'.
But then, that would mean you accepting that no one was misled, but, many from PM Blair down were mistaken, and in those 2 key words there is a world of difference and implication!
Complain about this comment
DavidRMurrell and Comment26 that "everyone knew the US was torturing" people at Gitmo.
Did they!?
Did you!?
You've been there!? Seen it happen!? Heard the grisly detail!?
Then again, maybe 'everyone' is not as astute as you or has that ESP that enabled you to know so much whilst us mere mortals have to wait for the Evidence: It's a small thing, but, it's fairly vital if you want to convict anyone of anything.
It may be the accounts of the 'tortured' will all become horrendously accurate and even some of the 'torturers' may come clean. All the same, you have to take a step back and realise that though your outraged sense of a wrong being done may be true it is as yet, far from being proven.
That step back and considered wait for the proof is part of what does separate the true Democratic supporter from the fanatical terrorist or the corrupt regime.
It may be why in the end Pres Dubya is held to be a terrible example to Democracy, but, at least that will occur whereas neither terrorist nor dictator would ever allow such a Right and Responsibility to ordinary Citizens.
Complain about this comment
Maybe the best way out of this for the PM is to blame it entirely on his predecessor.
In fairness, this looks like a Blair mess, not a Brown one.
It could be the very opportunity that Brown needs to distance himself from Blair.
Complain about this comment
Nick, Please research that Mark Steyn who is a disgrace to the British accent is this minute on Fox Talk Radio in place of Rush Limbaugh supporting torture and the sale of 'Club Gitmo' Tee Shirts on Rush's website and also talks of red hot pokers being a useful tool. I believe Mark was brought up in Birmingham but might be Canadian by parentage but sounds very British which disgusts me to the core. Google 'patrick lockyer' to see my own rants and support of your brave questioning of Bush that time.
Complain about this comment
#34 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
"Poor old Gordon Brown, spends a decade waiting for the job of his dreams and its been nothing but a bloody nightmare."
Tough sh!t!
His [insert eloquent criticism meaning "up his 0wn bu+"] motives got him there, left him there and got him here - and left us here! It's of his own making.
He is getting only what has been coming.
He was devious remember, not least over Scotland, his own country - can you imagine an Englishman doing that (if you shift the situation in reverse - OK, but you wouldn't like him!). IMO he is a power-hungry sick maniac.
But usually, by their imperfections' design, they have a grand fall.
I am quite a fair person at heart and these consequences Brown has been experiencing are only going some way to restore the action-consequences balance.
That calm has not been restored yet, so I do not feel bad, feel bad I do not!
;-)
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Why are we always more concerned with potential terrorists than with their victims, who are afforded no such consideration? Why was he in Pakistan on a forged passport in the first place?
It seems the US are more interested in their citizens safety than us Brits, who as usual let the civil rights brigade ride roughshod over the rest of us.
Complain about this comment
@37. ubergunner wrote:
"Are the tories saying that the British Government should take responsibility for everyone who has ever lived in Britain, no matter what their nationality or where actually are living or have lived? Seems like political point scoring to me."
Er, no. I think the issue may be that torture is illegal and considered a war crime! I think you may be one guilty of point-scoring.
This also presents a problem for Gordon Brown. If he knows that torture took place under the Blair Government, but says it did not, then that seems to make him an accessory after the fact.
Complain about this comment
We are regularly told that our government neither condones nor accepts evidence obtained through torture. In 2004 Jack Straw was told by Craig Murray, British Ambassador to Uzbekistan, that intelligence being used by Britain had been obtained through torture. Jack Straw denied it and Craig Murray was sacked for his troubles.
Britain is no longer a military super power, we are no longer a great manufacturing nation but if it wasn't for discredited governments like Blair's and the servile politicians who sucked up to him, we could have been a great moral power and lead the world in ethics and integrity. As it is, we followed the USA into odium and ignominy.
Complain about this comment
Israel does the 'dirty work' for the USA and the USA does the 'dirty work' for us it seems? Go Figure?
Complain about this comment
Wether this chap is in the right or not, Id sooner they shout more about the treatment of the British Soldiers who are not experiencing miscomfort or torture, but death disfigurement and dumped on the scrap heap when they return home from the illegal wars they have been sent into.
I think this is a bit of a red herring compared to the other explosive stories that have yet to be become public knowledge , but never will without a whistle blower.
Complain about this comment
Important though the truth of Binyam Mohamed case is, the threat of US co-operation with UK security is a far greater issue. Effectively the USA is saying that they would keep quiet about a known attack on UK troops, UK civilians, and even a massive terroist attack against a UK city. Just to get their own back if we don't do as we are told. The UK should give the US an ultimatum that if they do not retract and apologize for this threat immediately then they will be treated as an organised threat against our Nation. Their diplomats and military personnel should be asked to leave, any known and all suspect agents should be deported.
The UK must not allow yet another US leader try to treat us as dirt on his shoe. Last week he wants to start a trade war. Now he wants an intelligence war.
Come UK tell these people to play the game or take their ball back home.
Complain about this comment
Why Oh Why is David Davison not on the front line of the Conservitive Party,
Ken Clark should swap seats with him.
labour conected with torture?
Yep, I could believe that after all they have done to our country.
Go Now labour.
Complain about this comment
I'd be in a r-depression too if I'd made the colossal, un-precedented pig's breakfast of my job, which Brown has managed.
Complain about this comment
An awful lot of racist sentiment on some of the blogs this afternoon.
Complain about this comment
#59, 60
On that basis no-one "knows" anything unless they see it with their own eyes, and even then they may be wrong...
In the real world we can't wait for a historian in an Oxford college to tell us 20 years after the event that something bad happened. We have to react when prima facie evidence of wrongdoing is presented to us, and take it from there.
More messy than you would like, maybe, but that's what real life is like.
I've had a quick read of the judgement thanks to the link kindly provided in #38 and the judges make a compelling and very cautiously argued judgement.
For once I agree wholeheartedly with Nick. This could very very difficult for the Government, and also for Obama.
And David Davis has done us a service again, despite the cynicism of some over his motivation.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
How naïve everyone is.
Is there anyone who believes there has EVER been a UK government (since the birth of democracy) that has not been complicit in torture? Or any other government in the World for that matter. They do it and know about it; what is more they do it in our name – to protect us.
Your head is well buried if you believe otherwise That is why the USA and Obama want it kept secret, to avoid upsetting their own citizens and inflaming more terroroist action, though terrorists must themselves know it goes on, on both sides.
At the moment it is only alleged so we also know it will, and should, come to nothing. We need state secrets to keep us sane.
Complain about this comment
"There's a story on the BBC site about 10% of released Guantanamo inmates have been known to re-join their terror units."
That is pure propaganda. The American media has been briefed on this by the Pentagon and the pentagon came up with a different figure every month from 20 to 16 to 8 to 2 to 26... In other words, they have NO proof at all and have been making figures up on the hoof!
When investigated further it was found that the pentagon decided that if the released detainees merely blogged against American policy regarding Guantanamo, then it was concluded that they had returned to their "terrorist activities".
Blogging was regarded as terrorist activity.
The pentagon has made no mention of returning to "terrorist units" by the way.
A clear majority of "terrorist plots" in this country have been as a result of lies uttered by detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt, Morrocco, Guantanamo and elsewhere that have been tortured into confessions, leading to further renditions and further torture....
And when I say torture, I mean activities far more intense than mere "stress positions" and "sleep deprivation".
I know people that could use their specialist "enhanced interrogation" techniques to get anyone to confess to anything. They could have our Derek Barking professing to loving Margaret Thatcher inside half an hour!
Several of the torturers at these various global facilities have come out publicly and admitted their roles and complicity in what they admit is torture.
So these allegations are nothing new and it is of extreme shame that the BBC itself chose not to investigate and authenticate the many many many cases of torture themselves.
And the BBC claim to employ Journalists???
I have yet to see proof!
Complain about this comment
Why should we care about someone who was in or near a war zone where he may have been responsible for the deaths of British or allied troops. Let him rot in Guantanamo, if Obama wants rid of him then get on with it, just don't bring him back here.
Complain about this comment
Can it be that the American Intelligence community is threatening the UK government just 24 hours after Secretary Clinton was publicly hailing the 'special relationship'? Time for some houses to be put in order both sides of the pond, me thinks.
We would not want the new administration to be seen as a bunch of hypocrites would we? One hypocrite in the family is enough thank you.
Complain about this comment
BTW, I believe terrorists SHOULD be tortured, repeatedly, over and over and over....
BUT, we need to be sure that they ARE terrorists, and that precludes torture! When taxi drivers are picked up in Pakistan and sold to the Americans for a bounty, and the allegations against them are NOT corroborated, then Torture ONLY leads to false confessions, false information, false renditions and further torture and renditions and false terrorist scares and our police being made to look stupid.
Torture also provides motivation for the victim to turn to terrorism and plot revenge.
There should be Correct jurisprudence and only when the suspect has been found guilty beyond doubt, should the torture be inflicted.
Complain about this comment
Quote: "Uncomfortable, yes, but not even a cause of permanent injury or placing the subject at risk of death."
yeah, that's why many detainees at Abu Ghraib were only stress positioned to death....
Their testicles being shot off, or eaten by dogs had nothing to do with it, it was those stress positions....
The fact that Iraqi scientists, often people who had faced torture under Saddam's rule, were then tortured by OUR side, and often had to sit and watch their own children tortured, in a futile attempt to try to get these scientists to reveal the locations of WMD that the American and British leadership KNEW did not exist, (As they had been briefed to that effect by personnel inside the intelligence agencies prior to the invasion) is a point of eternal shame on our nation.
Keep drinking the cool-aid and enabling torturers to get away with it!
Complain about this comment
15. At 3:06pm on 04 Feb 2009, blogord wrote:
Why are the British MPs more concerned with foreign nationals than their own constituents?
ANSWER: Because it makes good media copy. Also, a good way of collecting votes, since the UK-born non-ethnic population has become dulled and apathetic, possibly not even going to vote.
Complain about this comment
65. ettykett Why are we always more concerned with potential terrorists than with their victims, who are afforded no such consideration?
ANSWER: See my #82.
I agree with you on all points.
Complain about this comment
A horror.
Complain about this comment
"65. At 6:15pm on 04 Feb 2009, ettykett wrote:
Why are we always more concerned with potential terrorists than with their victims, who are afforded no such consideration?"
-------------------------------------------
Torturing innocent people to get information that they cannot possibly have in a political war of occupation IS terrorism.
IF these people are suspects, then try them in court and IF found guilty, THEN torture them.
The thing is, When we went to war in Afghanistan, tribal peoples captured and sold people from other rival tribes to the Americans and they often invented information linking the abducted victim with terrorism to boost their payments.
Did you know for example that the man dubbed the mastermind and ringleader of 9/11, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, has also confessed to other plots, including but not limited to several that were not even thought of until AFTER he was placed inside Guantanamo?
This means that either the mastermind behind 9/11 was running international terrorist cells from inside Gitmo under the Americans noses, OR he was tortured into confessing to things that he could not possibly have done!
Torture DOES NOT WORK, it is counter productive, immoral, illegal, sick, depraved and if any British minister knew it was going on (and several definitely did) then they should not only be sacked from the Government, but should stand trial for their crimes!!!
Complain about this comment
Why should we worried about a non British Subject who just happened to live here for a time ( legally or illegally)
If he is released should be sent back to country of origin.
Complain about this comment
Mohamed went on a phoney passport to get rid of his drug habit. Hmmm. As a matter of interest, after his alleged rough treatment, is he now clean of drugs?
Complain about this comment
Just saw the Foreign secretary saying how important it was that the principal of foreign govts keeping our state secrets was preserved.But didn`t the US release our inteligence (wrong as it turned out) that Iraq had tried to buy Uranium from Niger which was inteligence we had supplied but had not agreed to release but the US did anyway.
Complain about this comment
Here are some American confessions of torture...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/14/AR2009011402319_pf.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/14/AR2009011402319_pf.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article5514239.ece
There are more, particularly in other detention centers in Iraq and Afghanistan and elsewhere. Actually what happened in Gitmo was pretty tame compared to other centers, but still amounted to a legal definition of torture.
The Americans, and other allied nations, carried out far worse torture in the other countries, with British Knowledge...
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
When it comes to getting essential information from captured al Qaeda terrorist and their friends in the battle zone, I'm with Jack Bauer.
Complain about this comment
Dear Nick,
Thanks for the new story, I was getting bored of that EU controls Britain, British jobs for British workers etc, etc.
Also I was getting rather tired of this whole 'Britian has become a bedwetting country unable to cope with a slight snow 'event' headline.
At last someone somewhere is standing up for themselves and demanding action. Oh, sorry, that is America.
Yep, this country has become a laughing stock throughout the world, thanks GB!
Xxxx
ps 2010 NOW!
Complain about this comment
I can't stay and play this evening, boys and girls, but I'm glad to see that Brown is still opening his mouth and promptly inserting both feet.
From the genius who gave us
"No more boom or bust"
"Britain is well placed to ride out the 'downturn' "
"I saved the world"
"British jobs for British workers"
We now have
" ... depression"
Complain about this comment
Political dynamite.
Yes, it probably is as far as that asinine game goes.
But do people out there really think that the Tories would have behaved any differently if they were in power during this period of 'extraordinary renditions'?
I think not.
In fact, historically, in political terms, the Tories have usually sucked up to the USA more than Labour.
Therefore this seems to me like just another stick for the Tories to beat the NL Government up with.
The Americans have been calling the shots, well, since at least WWII.
All 'British' Governments have been able to do down the decades, especially after Suez, is face both ways.
That is, being more-or-less fully compliant with American security 'requests', whilst simultaneously giving an illusion to their public that they are an independent (of America) security entity.
Time for that fallacy to be laid bare.
We English need to become fully fledged EU partners and then the EU as a political whole, can deal with the Americans on security matters as apparent equals (although in reality, it still won't quite be that).
Complain about this comment
I just heard someone claim that reports of torture by the British are rare:
British Police torture and brutality allegations abound.
Norther Ireland - allegations proven
Falklands - allegations of executions
Aden
Burma
Every other British Empire occupation
Britain is a design center for torture equipment
Mercenaries (ex service personnel) became a known export during the Angola war and have remained active.
Complain about this comment
Looks like 'special relationship' translates as 'special subservience', no doubt spelt out by Clinton to 'big girl's blouse' Milliband only the other day. So the US would cut our access to their intelligence if we were to tell how bad they treated this guy in Gitmo? How about we threaten to (a) shut down their operations at Fylingdales, Menwith Hill and all other listening posts they operate here; (b) shut down all US airbases; (c) cut all US access to UK intelligence from GCHQ; (d) kick em off diego garcia. This government (and all others to date) are so spineless.
Complain about this comment
Saw Milliband on the telly tonight, and am sorry to say he was absulutely hopeless....I think he has to go....he has a horrid tv persona, he is loathed by every foreign secretary he meets, his policies are stale and he comes across as always snarling and sneering.
He was a traitor to Brown and his days are numbered.
The Americans want him out and it is time to say ta ta to Milliboy.
Game over.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Dear 71:
"Why Oh Why is David Davison not on the front line of the Conservitive Party,
Ken Clark should swap seats with him."
How about David Davis with Ken Clarke?!!
Complain about this comment
Why are some Tories who are getting so indignant about this issue can't spell the name of their men?!! It is Davis - not Davies, Davison, nor Clark, etc.
Next it will be Camemoron, Vague, etc.
I have never seen so many Tories upset about a British resident. I wish you had the same attitude with Thatcher's love-in about Reagan, Pinochet and apartheid.
Complain about this comment
Like the citizens of every other country in Europe and the Middle East, I don't want to play host to someone who travelled to Pakistan/Afghanistan to train for terrorism against the West. This guy has very few 'rights' in my view, and he should be sent back to Ethiopa ASAP.
Complain about this comment
#74 badgercourage: "I've had a quick read of the judgement thanks to the link kindly provided in #38 and the judges make a compelling and very cautiously argued judgement."
Likewise, and double thanks to retiredrambler.
As usual, it is obvious that most of those commenting on the issue haven't read the judgement. So far as I understand it, the position of the US is not based on the particular snippets of information that are being withheld, but on the principle that information shared between intelligence agencies always remains the property of the provider, and not the receiver. Once that principle is lost, I can understand that no intelligence service is going to be happy to 'share'.
It is obvious from the discursive parts of the Judgement that the UK government has been very straightforward in telling the US that its activities involving torture are unacceptable, as is the whole Guantanamo process. The judges' findings are not a condemnation of the government's actions, though I don't expect either the media or comments on this blog to recognise that.
Complain about this comment
With the build up of the arguments for the war on terror to first go to Afghanistan and then on to Iraq, I believe this government has been complicit in many things which were used to make the case for war.Blair and Bush made lie after lie, with the help of many voices in the media, and also the quiet majority in the house of Westminster, who said little and did even less. Elements within this administration have even been rewarded for their complicity in this whole sordid affair.
All this means is that the previous leader would have to be held accountable to parliament and the country, and we know that will never happen. Elements within the establishment have not the spine to hold anyone of significance to account. So this, as abhorrent as it seems, will win no favours in the wider world of Westminster, as the people who should be held accountable, will never be. That is the true level of damage done by this administration.
Complain about this comment
A states first duty it to protect its citizens.
This bloke wasn't a citizen, he was an asylum seeker who clearly felt secure enough to travel the world...
Not one of our - no big deal what happens to him - worse things happen all over the world.
Euopean arrest warrents, and automatic extradition to the USA (i.e. Nat West 4) are fare greater worries -- our state is failing us, but this story isn't relevant to that.
Complain about this comment
I am not surperised at all. At least we know why Tony Blair was nodding(rather forced to nod) for every thing American bully(Bush) said.
Complain about this comment
I'd be more impressed if the ensuing debacle was to be around UK govt knowledge of US torture (or the US torture itself) than some sort of pseudo-patriotic chest thumping over the alleged US attempts to have UK keep its mouth shut over it.
Sadly though it seems a fair portion of our population would be only too happy to hand their own grandmother over to a man with rubber apron and thumbscrews, in exchange for a little more imaginary security. And if it was someone elses grandmother all the more so.
Complain about this comment
The truth seems to be that the American position suits the Brown Labour Government down to the ground - if it conceals the Governments direct knowledge and support for torture.
Comming so soon after Millibands visit to the states, one wonders what was discussed.
The issue is the integrity and morality of Browns Government (and Blairs before him) - but there is probably noone in the country that beleives they had any to start with - so it would hardly be news.
Complain about this comment
I would have thought it incumbent on all decent people to condemn torture of human beings at all times. However, it comes as no surprise to me that the ever opportunistic David Davis is more concerned with political point scoring than protecting potential torture victims
It confirms one thing for me, working class Tories from council estates are the worst possible kind.
Complain about this comment
The Conservatives said the ruling raised "serious questions". Serious Questions is a political euphuism used when the accusers have no evidence to back their claim.
The Tories are desperate to try and keep the Bush / UK government’s legacy alive, because it is they who publicly endorsed senator McCain for the presidency, and are worried about Obamas victory.
The Tories seemingly cannot look west to the EU, nor east to the states, best look skyward and pray for more snow so Cameron can have another play with Carol Vorderman. Fully expect the conservative’s non foreign shadow David Davis to resign and call another by election to inflate his already massive ego
.Dirty deeds are done so we can sleep safely - get over it.
Complain about this comment
If the facts are true and the government has colluded with the Americans on redition, especially with regard to UK nationals, then I have to say this government should go.
If it has knowingly worked against the people of this country on behalf of another, for whatever reason, it is not fit for office.
By the way Nick, are we in recession, or close to depression?
Gordon Brown almost said recession, but then corrected himself and said depression. It was a deliberate correction, no mistaking that.
Whats the betting that when we do finally slip into a depression, GB will say he always knew we would end up there and cite this PMQ as an example of his foresight?
The mans deluded.
Call an election!
Complain about this comment
We all KNOW whats gone on BUT WE ARE
NOT ALLOWED TO SAY IT.
GO ON DAVIS HOLD THEM TO ACCOUNT!
Complain about this comment
Well done those judges for making such a disgrace public.
Miliband should be thoroughly ashamed of his simpering justification of the gag order from the White House - we never discuss these things - really because they might be embarrasing or show as we didn't have enough evidence already the an ethical foreign policy is beyond this set of politicians.
Release the information so a fair trial can be had and be seen to be had.
Miliband just continues to demonstrate he has been over promoted and is unfit for a high office of state - perhaps Gordon could set up a ministry of silly walks for him to be take over.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
I don't know why but I always thought that the Law Lords sit in threes. Is this the case, so was there one dissenting voice. Who are the Law Lords and what other decisions have they made that may effect disclosure of information.
Complain about this comment
O my God! So Obama, the "candidate of change," the "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our security," The enspiring new president who conjures up Jefferson, Washington, and Lincon every chance he gets "bullyed" our closest ally? There are no words!!!!
Since he admires Washington so much, I find it surprising that he has completely disregarded the largest piece of foreign policy advice that Washington gave future presidents upon stepping down as our first one; and that was not to get involved in "entangleing alliances!"
Everyone knows that Republicans treat our allies like slaves, not Democrats!!! Candidate of disrespect is more like it!! He hasn't even begun to make noises about prosicuting the Bush administration for war crimes yet!!
And to think I was for once excited about him!! Hypocrits! All of them!!
And this a day after Clinton's meeting with Miliband--O the Humanity!
I'm so sorry you all have to endure this! You all should just cut ties with us--its the only way.
Complain about this comment
Shame there isn't a constitutional amendment specificly laying out laws on foreign policy conduction!!
Complain about this comment
Well as the Foreign Sec has put those silly judges right (ie, no threats by our American cousins to withhold intel assistance if we published 7 paragraphs about this chap's arrest and torture) there can be no reasonable objection from the politicians to the judges NOW publishing the material they originally wanted to include in their judgement.
Can there?
Complain about this comment
No nation should cut, much less threaten to cut, intellijence cooperation with its allies! Period!
Complain about this comment
No 83 said: "We now have
" ... depression""
----- ----- ----- -----
Yes, just reflecting of the fact that we have the golem as prime minister does tend to make one depressed.
Complain about this comment
Lets face it the Alied forces and acting super powers in this world are probably as gilty for war crimes as Husain and Hitler. An independant equiry is what we need - if war crimes against innocent people has been carried then those responsible should be brought to immediate justice in The Haige. Water torture is no different to electric shocks and beatings - im sure holding people and carrying these types of torture is against the genever convention. That american who said they are out of date earlier on beeb1 should be made an example of, acting outside of the convention knowing it is out of date is surely against human rights and not what this world needs. After all anyone can do that - on either side. Rant over....
Complain about this comment
Hmmm
How much can we trust the 'intelligence' given to us by the US agencies, I wonder?
How much can we believe the claims made by this man?
How much reportage on this matter can we trust/accept/ believe?
How much does our government care about civil rights matters abroad?
Such matters as this are fraught with danger, and can fuel the fires and fan the flames of civil unrest.
Our government's track record on intervention or not seems to be guided by the 'what's in it for us' attitude.
Torture, in any form, for any reason, should NEVER be accepted, ignored or encouraged. Torture is a form of terrorism, and both are totally barbaric. How can anyone preach about human rights abuses if they ignore or participate in such abuses themselves.
Any civilised human being would never condone it, and neither should any person or nation be coerced into 'going along' with it.
Part of being 'civilised' is having humanity.
How much in all of this is true?
How do we know it's true?
A little knowledge, in current times is surely a dangerous thing.
I do not expect any definitive statements to be made. Either the national security line will be used, or we will hear something about 'doing our best to rectify this', 'we will investigate', ''our special friend', 'war against terror' etc etc
Lastly, does anyone feel everso slightly suspicious about the timing of this revelation?!
Complain about this comment
Am I the only one finding the racists who think torture is fine as long it's brown people on the receiving end fairly depressing?
Complain about this comment
So let's get this straight..
Did or did not Miliband's lawyers tell the judges that making this material public might cause the US to stop intelligence cooperation?
If they did not, how come the judges said they did? If they did and there was no US threat, how exactly did that come about? Who told them to take that (seemingly untrue) line? Miliband or number 10?
If there in fact there is no threat to intelligence cooperation, what is stopping full disclosure now?
Complain about this comment
My apologies, apparently Obama didn't threaten to break off intellijence cooperation with the UK if they dare speeck out against our torturing of their national as this piece makes clear, but still, what Bush did and what our "report" to the UK government warned of is something only generally seen in comunications between adversaries!! Not allies!!
What is wrong with us?
Complain about this comment
I may not always agree with Davis, but I fully back him on this. He is a Tory who has principles and is unafraid to stand by them.
I hope the Tories who stand with him can join Old Labour and the Lib Dems and send Brown packing. Then reveal it all. (Preferably to Nick or Martin Rosenbaum of Open Secrets or Greg Palast.)
I'm an American and proud to be so. However, I don't like our current attitude towards the rest of the world, an attitude that Obama (who I didn't vote for) appears to want to continue. A bit over 232 years ago, we voted to declare our independence from the UK. Now, the UK should vote for its independence from us.
Complain about this comment
#124 Orvillethird
"A bit over 232 years ago, we voted to declare our independence from the UK. Now, the UK should vote for its independence from us."
Nearly Orville,
Scotland and England each need to vote for their independence from the UK.
- I'll let you off ;-)
Complain about this comment
badgercourage and Comment74 that 'in the real world.. can't wait for Oxford Prof..'
Well, in that case your 'real world' is very different from that we have inhabited in these Isles for a couple of centuries now! I believe it is called Democratic accountability.
Nobody is suggesting we wait 20 years for proof!
I am suggesting we allow time to consider the evidence available: E.g. Mr Blair's dossier on WMD was not exactly airtight and yet that had all sorts of supposed 'Intelligence input'. It suited the policy of the Government and we all know the result. Were the Intelligence sources wrong, misled or deliberately misleading? We can all take our positions but I would posit that the jury and judgement is still out.
In this 'torture' dossier just because 3 judges do not like some of the information they've been given and other bits and pieces they've collected along the way does not mean they are accurate or right in their conclusion about what went on. As for the alleged victim of torture, the idea that they are of unimpeachable veracity given their background links is frankly not sensible.
Clearly, there remains a good deal of evidence to be collated before the truth can be established one way or the other. That the UK and US Intelligence services are not quick to cooperate is neither suspicious nor proof of anything mischievous on their part. By its (Intelligence work) very nature the Public at large does not know much of these matters and who is to say the 3 judges have not been set-up to precisely cause this commotion as a cover for something entirely more circumspect involving Security service personnel?
Intelligence is about all sorts of things but the determining factor is that yours and my reality are not the same as truth, only intelligent supposition, which of course is all we can hope for from those responsible for our assessing Intelligence gathering: We can I fear, have less 'hope' of 'intelligent' policy-action by our body-politic, based upon the Intelligence provided to them!
Complain about this comment
Does anyone trust the USA on anything?
I certainly don't.
We certainly shouldn't be bullied by the US. We get plenty of that at home from Brown.
Complain about this comment
Once again the liberal minority kicks up a stink........ is it any wonder the country is filling up with deviants, crooks and terrorists from all over the world who can't believe their luck and the gullibility of this country.
Come on in and have some of the taxpayers money, a house, medical care, legal help and all free...
......leaves you plenty of time to pursue your other interests.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Orvillethird 124
Interesting one from you, I thought the whole world was in love with Obama. Personally my instinct from day one was not to trust Obama, too much like Blair for me. I see Obama has already sacked two people for tax evasion, not a good start.
David Davis I have a lot of time for as yet again he has uncovered something the Government would rather we did not know. He is the protector of our freedoms.
Complain about this comment
I'm going to go out on a limb here.
- There will be an inquiry.
- The inquiry will find that the British government acted legally and correctly at all stages, however there were some minor indiscretions.
- Some low level flunky will get the sack.
- Gordon will put on his best sincere face and give an interview with Nick saying how "lessons will be learned", "we're listening" and that the Tories would "do nothing".
Meanwhile nothing whatsoever will change.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Dear Nick
The Foreign Secretary if he knew about torture should resign,
Complain about this comment
On the basis of the Miliband interview with Paxman last night............
..... looks to me like our government are trying to cover up evidence that the UK has been directly involved with torture.
Seems like Miliband is trying to use generic restrictions stipulated by US intelligence, as a means to throw a blanket over the story.
Our government will have dirt on the US, so no doubt the US will release some bland statement about the importance of maintaining security between nations - in order to maintain Miliband's charade.
No doubt our caring sharing Labour government want to avoid this hatrick on their watch:
1. Illegal war
2. Dodgy dossier
3. Torture
Complain about this comment
Dear Nick
*134
That is totally true of Britain, and the Establishment,
and there is one other to add to that
Shoot to kill
The Rock of Gibralta AND the De Mendezez shootings for instantce.
Complain about this comment
I would like to say (before any other barking mad NuLabour zealot does)
The torture was worse under the Tories, it would be worse under the Tories and what is more its all Thatchers fault.
Sorry - I just felt I had to get that in before you know who did :-)
Complain about this comment
The Westminster Village People need to get out more and understand that the bulk of this country do not give two hoots for Binyam Mohammed and those like him. He is not British and just because he passed through here for a short while does not mean we are indebted to him for life. There are plenty of 'British residents' and British citizen' intercepted in Pakistan who all seem to be at family weddings or some other plausible reason and no doubt many have justifiable reasons being there. But many are not and there is many a northern or midlands accent to be heard on the walkie talkies and mobiles in Afghanistan. Released Quantanomo inmates have also surfaced again out in Afghanistan.
So he has suffered stress positions and sleep deprivation (and, to a previous contributor, nail pulling with pliers is only in your imagination). Tough. Compare that to the truly cruel and barbarous punishment metered out in Afghanistan, Pakistan, central Africa etc by gunmen/fanatics/paramilitaries on truly innocent men, women and children.
Some of the hand-wringing liberal types in this country need to wake up to the realities of the activities of their fellow human beings beyond the White Cliffs of Dover.
Complain about this comment
People are asking about depression. well I know there is depression in my house.
Depression because this once great country has been slaughtered. Cut in two. Totally divided. What the government has done and is continuing to do is wreck it completely. They have ruined our finances, ruined our way of life and totally ripped the heart and morale out of the decent people who live here. They are banning everything, creating a life that is totally impossible to live happily unless you are loaded and get away with things. If you have been through the system and are just an average joe you've got no chance. The average joe won us the war don't forget. The average joe won us the rights and freedoms that we experienced for a while. Now we've lost those rights and freedoms to corruption. The government are ruining everything and treating us like idiots all the time. That's why there is depression in my house. I can see it all collapsing. Gordon Brown didn't let anything slip yesterday in the house of commons. He knew full well what he said. He knows full well where we're heading and the problem with the people in power is they won't admit it. They never admit to anything when it puts them in a bad light. They are not worthy of being our 'managers'. If my grandad was alive today I think he would commit suicide at what he is seeing I really do. He was a staunch labour man but if he could see what is happening today and how it is making the average joe suffer in every aspect of his life due to the policies and decisions of this government I think it would be too much for him. If he could see the mess this country is in and to think what he did for us all is truly truly shocking. What future is there here for his Great grandchildren I ask? Why is it that almost everything he fought for has been lost to the european beaurocrats that don't live in average joe's world? Average Joe can't take much more of this. Trust me.....
Complain about this comment
Dear Nick
*136
Thatcher and then there was the Flight into kuwait,at the time of the Iraqi invasion, Thatcher used a Commercial B.A flight to send in Military units of Mi6.??
Complain about this comment
Dear Nick
**********138.
Oh How absolutely true that blog is
Well done the best analogy i hav read in years.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
This story needs clarity.
"David Miliband has disputed claims by two judges that the US threatened to stop sharing intelligence with the UK over an alleged torture case."
The Foreign Secretary needs to explain very quickly how the two judges arrived at the opposite view following representation made by counsel on behalf of the Foreign Secretary.
If I were the two judges, I would reconvene the hearing and summons the Foreign Secretary to give evidence in person.
Obama may have got elected on the hope that there will be real change in America; but events are showing this to be the usual political retoric.
We have got used to it on this side of the Atlantic; but there was a real expectation that the new president would be more upfront.
There seems to be little doubt that this individual was tortured and I cannot see how anyone can justify it, even on grounds of national security. Better to name and shame the individuals concerned, rather than attempt a cover up which sends the wrong message out to the wider world.
We are supposed to live in a democracy and are only to willing to preach to other countries about human rights and freedom; but when push comes to shove we are no different to them.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
Are you allowed to say how many news reports on illegal torture of suspected Iraqi/Arab/Afghans etc have been suppressed/censored via the means of D notices? I will accept an estimate, say rounded to the nearest hundred perhaps.
Complain about this comment
wow how innocent posters are today.
The real story today is another judge's rebellion against the 'establishment' in terrorist/ civil liberties cases. (juries join in from time to time!). and it's a big one this time.
The 'special relationship' with the USA since 1947 has been based on spooks nukes and bases. The spooks bit is about the active sharing of intelligence and maybe much more with the USA which allegedly enables the UK 'to punch above its weight'. The bases are for example the B52's on what is for almost every purpose US sovereign territory in Gloucestershire, and the nukes are the rockets in the UKs nuclear deterrent which may or may not be dual keyed.
The UK was supposed to get influence on US policies in return for all this. Margaret Thatcher got help with the Falklands but woke up to find Regan had invaded Grenada one day without telling her and bombed Libya on another from the bases again without warning. She maybe persuaded Bush1 to alter his policy and invade Iraq. Tony Blair found out that Bush2 did not want to know and would act anyway (including using the bases) so 'if you can't beat em.. ' he had to join them.
Of course, US administrations threaten to 'withdraw their love' in the informal non-treaty
real special relationship when it suits them. It would be naive to think otherwise. But we mustn't let on about it.
I think we would do better with 'french fries'
Complain about this comment
Mikekpo and Comment127 on 'does anyone trust the USA on anything... I don't..'
I do.
I trust the USA to continue to be a reliable Democracy: A nation which continues to be an open society exposing and criticising its many faults and revelling in its many good points. A nation in which a wholly unpopular President gave up all his power without the blink of an eye and entrusted it to a fellow Citizen in a transparent democratic process.
If you so choose, You look to Putin's Russia, the People's Republic of China, those wonderfully civilised Middle East dictatorships, African despots, and even the modern day soviet known as the European Union for the way forward in a complex world.
I will continue to trust the USA to get things right and get things wrong: The difference with the list above being that I will trust the USA to clarify by virtue of its democratic processes its mistakes (and, IMO, recently there have been many).
I would be shocked and amazed if you actually could say with confidence you place your trust in anything of the sort with the rest!
Complain about this comment
If the US is going to withdraw co-operation on sharing intelligence, then are they going to withdraw from Diego Garcia and give it back to the indigenous Chagos people? I think not! Only a complete wimp would cave in to the US given that they need us more than we need them.
Besides, how much US "intelligence" has been shown to be rubbish!? E.g. the Woodgreen Ricin debacle, the WMDs, etc. If the information comes from torture or large payments to defectors then it is mostly worthless anyway.
Complain about this comment
For those people who feel that the possible torture of anyone is acceptable, especially if they are not British a few salient point.
1 – There is this document, signed by the British and Americans, called the Geneva Convention detailing how prisoners of war and enemy combatants are meant to be treated. It prohibits the use of torture. We wrote this Convention so we and the US hold an obligation to uphold it, if we don’t how can we expect others to do so?
2 – This particular man was released without charge, meaning even after two years of imprisonment in three different countries they could not get sufficient evidence that would stand up in a closed military court. Remember this is the man trying to leave Pakistan under an illegal passport but he was not charged.
3 – The US has not refuted the claim that torture was used, they have stated that they do not want these documents made public for security reasons. The judges summary details evidence gathering techniques (which apparently failed) that I would hope any reasonable person would consider torture.
4 – The 10% figure returning to their terrorist cells if true is truly scary. Okay these are people taken because they are suspected of being terrorists, detained, questioned and then released by the security forces. These same security forces are now claiming that some of the people they questioned and released are returning their terrorist cells?!? So much for their questioning techniques then.
The lack of humanity shown by some people on this board is frightening – torture is okay as long as it happens to someone else, especially if that someone else is from a different country, different religion and different skin colour? Sorry torture is never ever okay no matter who does it and who they do it to.
To counterpoint some of the criticism of the British Government I do accept that intelligence supplied by another country should not be made public, unless that other country allows it. To break that agreement would obviously damage future supplies of information. If I tell you something in confidence and you break that confidence I am not going to be willing to tell you more secrets am I?
Complain about this comment
Dynamite may be understating this case. Binyam Mohamed is not a British citizen but he has relatives here and he may have lived in the U.K. The U.S. administration, under strong pressure from the CIA and the Department of Defense are trying to suppress details of his story which involves 'extraordinary rendition', torture in more than one country and in Guantanamo Bay itself. Whether MI5 and MI6 knew about it is debatable. Two points come to mind: first the U.S. threat to withhold intelligence is empty. The quality of intelligence from the British is indispensable to them. The U.S. churns out a lot of poorly analysed electronic data and their human intelligence is often unreliable, so they would be the losers on that front. Second, the information is going to come out unless they either kill Binyam and his lawyer or keep him under lock and key forever. They might as well suck it up now, because this won't be the last revelation of this nature and it won't be the worst.
Complain about this comment
Robin Cook's speech on the government's ethical foreign policyThe speech by Robin Cook that started it all
guardian.co.uk, Monday 12 May 1997 03.43 BST
"Our foreign policy must have an ethical dimension and must support the demands of other peoples for the democratic rights on which we insist for ourselves. The Labour Government will put human rights at the heart of our foreign policy and will publish an annual report on our work in promoting human rights abroad"
===
Perhaps Mr Millipede ought to read this in full, it's available on the Grauniad website.
I don't see too much support for the democratic rights of the people of Zimbabwe from this Government.
Is it because they don't have supplies of black gold?
Complain about this comment
Nick why no blog for Brown and the D word yesterday.
What I dont get is how his spokesman can say it was a slip of the tongue when he clearly started to say the R word and changed it to the D word.
Also was it not said yesterday in PMQ's that words need to be chosen carefully.
You yourself said of his British jobs for British people that he had changed his wording and was changing it back because of the harm that it does.
The man is two faced. For the world he says no protectionism for us he says British jobs for British people. Does he not realise that media is global and the rest of teh world know what he says for domestic consumption. He is incompetant and should call an election now
Complain about this comment
A bit of torture is nothing if it means stopping another 9/11 or 7/7. What do you want to do? I know sit them down with a nice cuppa and a bikky and then ask in a nice voice "can you tell us your next plan to kill thousands of people with your bombs please"
They want a war so we have to find out infomation by any means.
If it means saving my/your childs life because someone took a kicking in a cell then so be it. If any SAS were caught in Iraq of Afghanistan do you think they would not be tortured to find out what we had instore for them?
And dont come back with morals. People who plan bomb attacks dont have any why should we.
Complain about this comment
Let us go steady with this expression 'British resident'. That means a person who has been present in the UK. It should not imply any particular status that would modify our attitude to the practice of torture in a particular case, however much that practice should be condemned. If it is wrong it is not more or less wrong because it has been possible to smuggle the word 'British' into the narrative.
Complain about this comment
It is not surprising that our country could be involved in torture.
We have been involved in almost every crime that the US has committed right from the start. The falsifying of documents to the British public and the UN to manufacture an excuse for attacking Iraq, involvement in abuse of Iraqi prisoners, involvement in the "rendition" flights, involvement in the starvation of Palestinians in Gaza, involvement in arming Israel with cluster bombs which killed civilians in Lebanon and Palestine etc... it is hardly political dynamite to also be involved in actual torture. With all the crimes that the UK has been involved in, I don't see where this sudden moral outrage is coming from.
Complain about this comment
We have a spineless government, lost in serving only the corporations, nothing would surprise me about the actions of this government, the sooner they are out the better.
General election please.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
146 DavidRMurrell
Skin colour or what country they are from does not matter. Saving people from being blown apart and leaving your kid without a Mum or Dad is what matters.
The Geneva Convention is out of date. If you could have stopped the 7/7 London bombing by give someone a punch in the eye (or more) to get infomation and save thoses people just going to work would you have done it?
I know I would have.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
may I remind readers of the inaugaration speech given by Obama.
He made reference to the burning of Washington during the American Civil war, I know they refer to it as The American War of Independence, but it wasn't. It was a civil war because were not they rebelling against an English Parliament and an English King. So, from that we can see that Obama and those around him still don't like the English, especially since they were drawn into a war based on lies by Blair.
Secondly, we know that Obama's father was in Kenya during the Mau Mau troubles and there is allegations that Obama senior was tortured by the English during that conflict. So, again we can why Obama does not appreciate the English.
Accordingly, we should not be afraid of any threat of withdrawal of cooperation by the Americans. They know that they are using torture, we know that they are using torture, so take them to the courts. We are complicit because we detain the prisoners who are then handed over to be tortured, so we too are guilty.
As for torture, what if you torture an innocent man, where does that leave your morality. The tortured person will also know that as soon as he gives out the information that there is every likelyhood that he will be murdered, so as to remove the evidence. Remember Steve Biko, who managed to throw himself out of a window after being questioned!
Complain about this comment
Can you imagine the furore had these threats emanated from the E.U! The Europhobes, UKIP, BNP, Freedom Association, the right wing press, etc etc would have been beside themselves with screaming outrage.
But, seeing as it's the the good old U.S. they never really happened, did they Mr Milliband?
Any reduction in info from the U.S to the U.K will only rebound onto them. What are GCHQ and Menwith Hill for if it's not to serve our U.S masters? Info flows both ways.
Complain about this comment
tend to agree with 140:
The terrorists think nothing of blowing up innocent civilians. If torture is the only way of extracting information to nip it in the bud so be it. If The Government are trying to hide their complicity in hiding information relating to it in order to save their own skins that's a different matter.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
I have just contacted President Obama and I show below what I have said:-
I am of the firm belief that America has tortured innocent people. This I find absolutely abhorrant, I believe your own father may have been tortured during Mau Mau. You must come out and tell the truth about what has been going on in the name of America.
I believe that in order to stop this private firms are being employed so that the practice is kept at arms length. Please stop this process, it will end in disaster.
Complain about this comment
Our Foreign Secretary could not say the words " we did not know that this man was being tortured"
The BBC has the duty to make this the lead story on all news bulletins.
As predicted the war on terror has cast a shadow over our democracy. Tony Blair's slavish support for the Bush doctrine has cost lives and reputations.
Only Blair has not paid the price for his folly.
Complain about this comment
Re: #1, #2 and #8
Excellent posts, well worth reading.
This is indeed dynamite.
I feel ashamed of Bush, Blair, Brown and Milliband.
Complain about this comment
So here's a moral dilemma.
Imagine you are in charge of interrogating a suspected terrorist, part of a cell that's on the verge of launching a multi location attack in this country.
This is the only cell member you detained, the others managed to avoid your efforts and are now out there somewhere.
From the evidence you find you know these attacks are happening tomorrow and certain to be deadly. As usual civilians are the targets.
The detainee refuses to talk, you are running out of options?
What would YOU do?
Cardinal Fang, fetch...
...The comfy chair!
Complain about this comment
I feel really sorry for this bloke he must have had a terrible time mind you I bet it wasn't half as bad as the poor british people who had their heads hacked of with a knife and had it filmed for the world to see. this bloke go's to Afganistan to get away from drugs, sorry I had to have a minit so as to stop laughing it sounds like the begining of a joke, it was like the other chappie from Birmingham who went to Afganistan to to learn how to use a computer and the Tipton lot who went to a wedding in Packistan that even their families new nothing about you coulden't make it up. Funny how you do gooders never say a word about what these same people do to our people oh no can't have that much the same with the do gooding BBC that only tells us what they want us to hear. got up in a really good mood today.
Complain about this comment
Of which state is this "British resident" a citizen? What action has the government of that state taken on his behalf? None? What responsibility has the UK government in respect of a citizen of another state who has been resident at some point in the past in the UK? None!
As for complicity in torture, the USA does what it deems to be in US interests. The views of a quaint little European offshore dot on the map may be of some interest to the US government but not nearly to the extent that "we English" seem to imagine.
You are of very little consequence in the world. Time you realized it.
Complain about this comment
Maggyisgod: I thought the point was that we are better than the terrorists not just as bad. Anyway physical torture is actually pretty bad at gathering information – experts say that almost everyone, even those trained in its resistance, will break within three days. At that point you will do anything to stop the pain, unfortunately a person is as likely to tell the torturer what they thing the torturer wants to hear as the truth. This means that evidence gained under physical torture is unreliable.
The preferred method of gaining information is mental coercion, where the questioner tries to convince the prisoner that it is in their best interests to co-operate, while this does in some cases involve threats it not always necessary, think of it as similar to hostage negotiations.
Torture is normally done as a punishment and/or a means of coercing people who have not yet been tortured along the lines of “see what you are going to get if you do not co-operate.”
To be honest I cannot see a situation where I would torture someone, unlike killing someone (to protect myself or loved ones). I would hope that professionals in the field would be able to use the most affective means of gaining information. Again this gentleman appears to have been tortured and then released without charge. Meaning either he was innocent or that the methods used did not glean enough information to make a prosecution – either way torture was not effective and therefore, irrespective of the terrible human rights violations involved, should not have been used.
Complain about this comment
#150. maggyisgod wrote:
"A bit of torture is nothing if it means stopping another 9/11 or 7/7. What do you want to do? I know sit them down with a nice cuppa and a bikky and then ask in a nice voice "can you tell us your next plan to kill thousands of people with your bombs please""
The problem is that you do not know ahead of time whether you are torturing someone who actually knows about a bomb plot or whether you are torturing an innocent person.
It is catch22, if you already know about the bomb plot with sufficient certainty that you know you are torturing a guilty person then you already have the information you need.
If you don't have the information prior to torture then you could be torturing a "confession" out of an innocent person who will ultimately tell you anything to stop the torture. It is no better than the Spanish Inquisition.
Furthermore, if you are dealing with suicide bombers who are willing to die, are they really going to tell you the truth under torture anyway!? They could tell you complete rubbish and send you on a wild goose chase.
The people arguing for torture only do so on the implicit assumption that is will only be used against non-white Muslims. However, once you set a precedent allowing torture, it can be used against anyone. Any voice of decent against the government can be classed as terrorism - read the news, it already is!
Torture is not necessary because it does not work, AND it is not the only option available. Anti-terror intelligence can be gathered through other means such as signal intercepts (and technologies that the security services will definitely want to keep secret) and through infiltration of terrorist organisations. If you do not have the these other intelligence gathering operations, and make sure they are effective, then you will never even be aware who the potential torture candidates are anyway, and they will hit you out of the blue.
Finally, if you do use torture, you will inevitably end up torturing an innocent, and you will end up becoming the monster portrayed in the terrorist recruitment propaganda so you have more terrorist attempts. Sooner or later, there will be one you do not know about until it is too late.
Complain about this comment
WebGraham and Comment147 that ".. USA empty threat of withholding Intelligence... theirs is poor.. GB INtel indispensable to US"
Straight form the horse's mouth, I presume!
Oh dear! Have a lie down in a quiet corner: Reflect on what You personally know about the workings of the Intelligence Services in the USA or UK or anywhere
Hazard a guess the keywords/terminology being Secret, Agent, Spy, Intelligence, Analysis, CIA, NSA, GCHQ, MI5, MI6, JIC and a few other acronyms and names of the Cold War defectors, famous prisoners, and the modern day Heads of such Security services, and... oh yes, SMERSH and Bond!
As for your actual knowledge of the Intelligence Services workings there's a Teletubbies programme on shortly and I'm sure it'll be as illuminating!
Complain about this comment
63. aye_write
Hello aye.
Oh sure we agree on that.
I just have the tinyest modicum of pity for the man.
You know the kind of pity you have for the worst of despots when thy are finally ousted from power and find themselves in a cell at the Hague.
A little pity... yes, feel bad NO..
Complain about this comment
162. At 11:01am on 05 Feb 2009, filipinomonkey wrote:
So here's a moral dilemma.
...The detainee refuses to talk, you are running out of options?
What would YOU do?
===
Call for Jack Bauer!
Complain about this comment
Like so much on the BBC these days, this is a complete non-story. A non-British national has been kidnapped, held without charge and tortured by US authorities, possibly with the assistance of, and probably with the knowledge of UK authorities and David Davis wants to take his ball home because they won't admit it in public. What does he expect, and where is his faux outrage (and that of the BBC) when it comes to the hundreds of thousands of other non-UK nationals suffering human rights abuses day in, day out throughout the world.
Besides this, we've got Carol Thatcher and her non-BBC, non-PC expressions and endless footage of a bit of snow bringing small parts of the country (which happen to be where the editor lives) to a standstill, headlining the news.
What with the revelation that the BBC now has a Persian Service to target propaganda at Iran, presumably because the World Service just isn't specific enough, one really must ask, what on earth is the BBC for? I fear your days are numbered.
Complain about this comment
'The Westminster Village People need to get out more and understand that the bulk of this country do not give two hoots for Binyam Mohammed and those like him.'
DarkNemisis
Agreed. But what you have to wake up to is the fact that the government can get away with this and other outrages with impunity. It does what it wants and there seems absolutely no possible way that a minister of state takes any of the flak or ay of the responsibility.
It's this insidious creep of Stalinesque rules and actions that frightens the hell out of me.
Were you aware, for instance, that, as from this month, taking a picture or filming a policeman or other law enforcement agent will become a criminal offence punishable by up to 10 years in jail? So filming OUR servants by their paymasters is now illegal. And not a peep from anyone in the mainstream.
An Ethiopain national today, you and me tomorrow?
Complain about this comment
You journalists are all asking the wrong question here. Binyam Mohamed is obviously making his allegations of torture to avoid explaining what exactly he was doing in Afghanistan and Pakistan at the time of his arrest, carrying a false passport.
Anyway, why does the fact of his having lived in this country for a few years make him anything to do with us? Let the Americans ship him back to Ethiopia and they can deal with him.
Complain about this comment
Torturing others is like 42 day detention.
It may look great on the surface to achieve our safety, but the arguement falls down when you are the innocent party suffering at the hands of the policy.
Like it or not the bible has it right, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
If you wouldnt like to be tortured or detained for 42 days without charge dont inflict it on others.
Complain about this comment
re: 131.
How depressing.
Unfortunately I believe that there may be much truth in what you write.
Utterly depressing.
Complain about this comment
4. FalmouthBoy
Id like to think we are no where near the same league as Mr Bin Laden and his followers.
When the state uses torture is looses the moral high ground.
But the dynamite is the fact that our best friend is threatening to cut us out of the intellegence loop if we comply with the law.
And that speaks volumes about the special relationship.
The trouble with the Americans is that they are always there when they need you!
mmmm who said that first ?
Complain about this comment
Did anyone see Milliband on the news:
Every time he was asked if he knew about it, he would answer
' We do not condone or advocate the use of torture.' (Or words to that effect)
getting more and more exasperated every time the questioner would ask him again if that meant he knew. He seemed to think he just had to keep saying this and eventually the interviewer would suddenly think that this answer meant he didn't know.
What an absolute slimeball!
Complain about this comment
Not a British passport holder, but definitely a terrorist ... frankly I do not care what happens to him or what they do to him to get information that might save an innocent. He was given shelter in the UK but chose to stick a knife in our nations back so why should anyone in this country fight for his rights.
Complain about this comment
100. At 9:29pm on 04 Feb 2009, Iwilltellyouthis wrote:
I have never seen so many Tories upset about a British resident. I wish you had the same attitude with Thatcher's love-in about Reagan, Pinochet and apartheid.
====
If you have any evidence of the Thatcher government or security services being implicated in torture in collusion with Pinochet I suggest you shre it with us.
Thatcher may have been a supporter of Pinochet but, as far as I am aware, no helping hand was provided in actual torture. Unlike the current 'government'.
Complain about this comment
Simonmw3 and Comment166 that no torture is acceptable.
Well said: A thorough and thoughtful defence of the Rights of Man in any society that likes to consider itself as Civilised.
Complain about this comment
Nick
Why no blog about Harmans slip up yesterday on the Daily politics show when she initially agreed with Andrew Neal that unemployment was heading for 3 million
"of course it is" she said 3 times. then back tracked and said no one knows if it will reach 3 million.
"Look back at the tapes "as you so quaintly said yourself about Browns foul up.
I have Brown fouled up and so did Harman and none of you at the Beeb are pullling them up on it.
Please can we have some truth seeking, and can you please ask Gordon when we are having the election that the country wants in every interveiw from now until the day he calls it.
Complain about this comment
tomirerland and Comment153 that "..we have a spineless government... general election please.."
Yes, because of course Mr Cameron's or Mr Clegg's lot will be so different in their dealings with the USA, Gitmo, rendition, torture, anti-terrorism measures etc.
I would support a General Election if I believed any one of the mainstream UK Political Parties would 1, guarantee a Referendum on membership of the EU, 2, guarantee to abide by the inevitable majority withdrawl vote within 2 years and 3, set-up legislation for an English Parliament for the English within the 5 year Parliamentary term.
As for all the other stuff: They are periphery to the future independence, stability and security of the UK population.
Complain about this comment
136 banbury.
#The torture was worse under the Tories, it would be worse under the Tories and what is more its all Thatchers fault.
Not such a clever remark considering that Maggie's best friend Pinochet was a mass torturer and murderer of young people in his country, she was also quite matey with Sadam another mass muderer and torturer of his own people, and Galtiarie was on her list of good friends until the Falklands.
If you want to be clever try putting your brain into gear before typing this tripe.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
"Watch this space"
I have been but nothing seems to be appearing. Are you stuck in the snow?
I'm slightly disturbed about the tone of some of the comments on here. As I understand it this chap has had all charges dropped, yet some of you have tried him, found him guilty, and would quite willingly (so it seems) do the torturing. There is no excuse for it, and if you listen to the experts they'll tell you it doesn't even work, becuase if you are the one on the recieving end, you will naturally tell your abuser whatever they want to hear to make the pain stop.
And as for quoting the bible ("do unto others etc...) what nonsense. You could quite easily quote the opposite from elsewhere in the same book (which can be obtained from any good book store under the section marked 'Fiction').
People who quote it as if it were meant to be taken literally, word for word, really get on my nerves. It's the bible for goodness sake....not gospel.
Complain about this comment
puttind aside the namby pamby,political correct position we find ourselves in,Binyam Mohamed was arrested in the theatre of war as a suspected terrorist.As an Etheopian national I understand,surely this should not be our problem.Guantanamo to Etheopia by air,problem over.Those who play with fire will get their fingers burnt.
Complain about this comment
Threat of withdrawal of US 'Intelligence' co-operation? Mmmm? Perhaps the UK, looking at recent US intelligence pre-Iraq might actually benefit from lack of US so-called intelligence sources?!!
Complain about this comment
121. capnbob
#Am I the only one finding the racists who think torture is fine as long it's brown people on the receiving end fairly depressing?
I have read most of the posts on here and I have not been aware of your remark being substantiated.
I'll bet that Binyam Mohammed is laughing his socks of at all the do gooders on here the more furore the more compensation, pay from newspapers and TV and probably little old ladies sending him food parcels.
the chances are that he's as guilty as hell. I can only hope that he doesn't go on to prove all these nice gentle do gooders wrong.
Complain about this comment
@my 180
Correction it was tessa jowell not Harman
Complain about this comment
Torture. UK resident captured in Pakistan and taken to Cuba. What does this mean to young male residents of UK? I would love to be so mobile and free to roam.
As for withdrawal of US Intelligence, perhaps UK would be better without being lead by the nose of US Intelligence services? So, US bring it on.
Complain about this comment
Of course we have been complicit in torture. We are Britain, we have a post grad degree in the subject.
Wake up. You don't think that we would have our wonderful way of life, standard of living, great institutions, safe streets etc without it. It is how you get sensitive information from people.
One trick is to do it without the press reporting it, which is a lot more difficult here than in many other nations. The other is to ensure that we have 'allies' who we can trust and who trust us to cover up any unfortunate 'leaks'.
Of course we could always have more bombings and terror on our streets if you would prefer it.
Complain about this comment
"Not a British passport holder, but definitely a terrorist"
Seriously, WHAT THE HELL?
Intensely stupid vicious people like you make me physically sick.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#182 grandantidote
gracious as ever, just like your beloved leader!
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/rosa_prince/blog/2009/02/04/boris_johnson_bumped_for_harriet_harman
Complain about this comment
166 simon
Furthermore, if you are dealing with suicide bombers who are willing to die, are they really going to tell you the truth under torture anyway!? They could tell you complete rubbish and send you on a wild goose chase.
They may be willing to die, quickly, thats a different think entirely to being tortured. when being tortured you have time to consider your options and with considerable pain involved your options might change dramatically they of course might tell you rubbish but the thought of being tortured again would tend to bring clarity.
We have seen situations in the past were kidnappers have taken children and on occasion buried them in the ground with a limitted air supply and no chance of being found, some have survived some havn't.
Now supposing its your child, and when passing the ransom over you manage to get hold of the person that has buried your child but he says he's not going to tell you where he has burried her/him do you sit down with him and say now listen old chap were is my child he says I'm not telling you.
Now I dont know about all you nice people out there but a trip to my tool box for my mole grips and the thought of testicals would spring to my mind, what would you do?
Complain about this comment
#168 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
"63. aye_write
Hello aye.
Oh sure we agree on that.
I just have the tinyest modicum of pity for the man.
You know the kind of pity you have for the worst of despots when thy are finally ousted from power and find themselves in a cell at the Hague.
A little pity... yes, feel bad NO.."
----
Mornin'! Wait, afternoon!
Yes, I usually do! ;-)
I even ......felt poor on behalf of Sadam - he'd scewed himself so.
But I would not like to be caught out feeling that bit pity while Gor-balls still has a little bit if power, you know?
Seems foolish - I'd like to keep my politics tidy, and that means being on guard re Scotland. And Gordon cannot be trusted to not have one final hell-bent go at Scotand in the final flings of his tenure - in his dying throws it would make him feel better you see (so it's even more likely), he'd do it just because, well, he can.
Better to crush the beetle by stomping up and own on it to make sure it is completely dead, then burn it! - as for it to even have one bent leg flicker back into life would be a mite too deadly (given the postion Scotland is in).
I hope you are not seeing me in some kind of new unfashionable light here! ;-)
Complain about this comment
Nick
The Judges ruling said that the Americans had specifically threatened to withdraw cooperation if the information was published.
Milliband says that there was no such direct threat.
Simple job for a journalist like yourself --find out who is correct?
From what I have seen/read, it seems that milliband gave the impression to the judges that such a direct threat did exist.
He left them with that impression and got an outcome that suited the government.
Now he is suggesting that the judges got the wrong impression from what they were told.
Labout have a massive history of this -- saying one thing letting it 'create an impression', which subsequently turns out to be entirely wrong.
We used to call this telling lies, but since blair/brown got away with saying that 'tax not going up', actually meant 'basic rate income tax would not go up', so they had not lied, it has continued unabated ever since...
Go on Nick - don't bury this with the mandleson/oleg story...
Complain about this comment
Nick,
interesting that Obama or one of his officials has said that US government officials will not torture people. Interestingly, why say government officials. What if he were to arrange for the torturing to be done by the many private security firms now operating overseas.
Do I trust America, no longer.
Complain about this comment
"What responsibility has the UK government in respect of a citizen of another state who has been resident at some point in the past in the UK?"
Same responsibility it has under international laws if the person involved was an Eskimo who'd never set foot here.
The govt had evidence of cruel and unusal punishment of a level that the judges who viewed it (OUR judges) believe may on further investigation be sufficient to lay charges of torture in breach of the Geneva convention.
The UK govt has no legal right to engage in torture OR help to cover it up. On the contrary it has a legal duty to bring it to the attention of the relevant authorities.
In this case Milliband claimed public interest in order to do precisely the opposite - on the basis it would damage the intelligence sharing between the US and the UK
1 - the fact you have an interest with another party does not give you any right to help cover up their crimes. If someone who owes you 50,000 quid confesses to having bumped off his wife and buried her out the back door, then is the fact his ability to repay you the money would be jeapordised if it ever came to court, enough for you to hold your tongue?
2 - miliband is now claiming there was no pressure from the US anyway
If thats the case why did he send his legal representative along to try to persuade the judges precisely the opposite. He's either lying now or he was lying then.
The US has set itself up as a self-styled world policeman with the UK acting as a part time special constable. A police force that engages in the same crimes that it tries to prosecute others for has no moral weight or legitamacy whatsoever.
Reading some of the comments on here I'm surprised we ever bothered fighting 'zee jermans'. We could have turned belly up for hitler and had the torture loving gestapo state they all seem so keen on, up and running for almost 70 years by now.
Did we torture luftwaffe fliers for hints on where the next nights bombing raid would be?
When you reach the stage you'ld rather wire some unfortunates privates to the mains on the offchance he might know something, rather than run the miniscule risk of being caught up in a terrorist attack, then theres no 'war on terror'.
Instead theres just the 'stoop to any level' actions of a shower of cowards, who want all the benefits of lethal military action but with none of the potential costs to affect their side.
Same cowardly attitude that would have had us run up the white flag on first night of the blitz.
Complain about this comment
@33 "Yes, a clean sweep is a good policy.
But if you sweep the streets and don't make use of litter bins, are you not just letting the dirt build up once again?
I suggest you ditch the system not just those that are at the control. You need constitutional change"
Yes definitely. Sorry to keep beating this drum but politics as it works in this country needs to change. The parties and circumstances may change but the problems continue.
Complain about this comment
Mmmmmm.
This is a thorny one, isnt it? Where to begin?
OK. Torture is unneccessary because there are other methods of intel gathering. Sigint, satellites, phonetaps, etc... OK. True, but unreliable. One thing that has become widely known over the years is that the CIA's technological side was gathering vast amounts of raw data, but without the HUMINT side, agents on the ground in dangerous places, that data could not be accurately corroborated. So. To address this? Infiltration of organisations by agents. What happens if those agents are captured by the organisations they have penetrated?
At best its the black hood and a 9mm to the back of the head. At worst, torture, then the black hood and the 9mm to the back of the head.
A certain agent STAKENIFE (deliberate mis-spelling) being the intriguing exception...
Not just agents either. I presume most of us have read Bravo 20 at some point, where elements of the SAS troop were captured and handed over to the Mukhabarat.
Then theres the old adage of one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Allegations of torture, substantiated or otherwise, along with "successful" operations are in the words of Martin McGuiness "the best recruiting Sergeant". It could be argued that torture is counterproductive in the grand scheme of things, particularly when taking the long view of a conflict that has been running for many years.
Stress positions are not torture techniques, they are known and widely used prisoner handling techniques.
What else... 7/7? Dont get me started. Five had been following all 4 players, then lost them. Local residents had complained about the odour of TATP preparation from the flat. Nothing was done. Draw your own conclusions. In about 30 years time, there will be an awful lot more to come out about that event. I doubt very much I'll be around to see it though.
The Geneva convention? All well and good, if both sides play by the rules. This is where the likes of HAMAS come into their own. They know the Israelis will play by exactly the same rules as they do - ie no rules - but use the West's soft underbelly and liberal attitude towards the Geneva convention to manipulate the Western European media to create the publicity of outrage that comes in very useful to their cause. Therefore, the cause receives the oxygen of publicity and their adversary is harangued as a pariah. Job done. Do not get hung up on the niceties of the convention. Google the name Kenneth Bigley. He wasnt in Iraq as a combatant. I doubt very much that Al Zaqawi lost much sleep thinking about violating the convention when he beheaded him.
The moral high ground costs a lot to capture and is very often a very lonely place.
Someone mentioned the Death On The Rock incident. The 4 that were taken out by the SAS were a known PIRA ASU. The materiels for their mission were in the boot of the car in a multistorey car park. Their mission was known about, they were taken out, innocent lives were saved. They were combatants. They knew exactly what they were getting into. If you live by the sword, you die by it.
Quite what this character was doing in the region is open to conjecture. I would suggest that the same rules apply. He knew what he was getting into. He knew the risks. Dont want to risk getting captured? Dont get involved. Stay away from the action. Jails all over the world are full of innocent men.
So, what is the situation with Milliband and Davis? Davis is using this as a political football. Milliband is squirming because a) he's a weak foriegn secretary with his eyes on deposing Gordon and b) HMG has got so far into bed with the US that has become dependant. Significantly more intel flows from the US to the UK than the other way. Would the withdrawl of this be something the US Government would conciously do? Given that we are NATO allies? Doubtful. Would the CIA, with lack of 100% oversight indulge in this kind of tit for tat sabre rattling, threatening behaviour? Quite possibly.
Someone else rightly mentioned Putin's Russia, the PRC and North Korea. Indeed. All with significantly worse records than us where torture is concerned.
So what am I getting at? Torture happens. You cant change it. You can let off steam, you can get cross about it. But it always has happened and always will do, regardless of who is in power.This story, about a non British citizen who may or may not have been tortured, is another straw being heaped onto another by the conservatives with the intention of breaking the camels back and keeping the pressure on an under the cosh administration. Had it happened on Davis's watch, the outcome would have been no different. The opposition would have fanned the flames.
We should not beat ourselves up about it. There are far more important things to worry about than this. Foriegn policy is a messy business, regardless of who is in charge.
Complain about this comment
182. grandantidote
Either I hit a nerve or you have no sense of humour.
It was not meant to be clever - but poking fun at the how the same comments by the same people always seem to come up. The Tory supporters all rant "Get rid of Gordon now” or "Call an election" and the Labour supporters rant about "how bad it was under Thatcher and everything was her fault"
That aside - for balance do you want to start a list of the mates of Labour politicians that have done some dogey things.
Let me start - what about Tony Blairs mate GW Bush - I expect extreme rendition and water boarding are fine?
Complain about this comment
Slightly off topic, but re the "re- depression" comment:
We all know that the difference between a recession and a depression is that a recession is when the other guy loses his job, and a depression is when you lose your job. I expect Gordon Brown was just anticipating the results of the next general election.
Complain about this comment
@183 Tim
"And as for quoting the bible ("do unto others etc...) what nonsense. You could quite easily quote the opposite from elsewhere in the same book "
Tim i challenge you to do so.
Also try reading my entire post and you will realise it supports your position of not torturing
Complain about this comment
#183 Tim
Is "Middle England" Cambridge in Cambridgeshire, by any chance?
I'll pray for you.
Complain about this comment
Why are we, yet again, bowing to US pressure on the 'anti terrorist' thing? Anti- terrorism is a convenient excuse for the US/UK authorities to pick up anyone of asian/ middle eastern origin & keep them incarcerated with little or no room for them to prove their innocence. I am disgusted that the US have treated us like their lap dogs again. We are no longer beholding to them...we've paid off our WWII mortgage. I believe the judges over the foreign secretary, in my experience Judges speak the truth, shame our politicians are incapable of doing the same.
The sooner we can distance ourselves from the US military campaigns, the better we can get along with the rest of the world.
Complain about this comment
Nick
Before you get too excited, there is no political dynamite to this story.
I totally disagree with the US policy over Guantanamo Bay but believe that if a trial was being held in the US that relied on our Intelligence then we would also ask for the details to be witheld in case it jeopardised future missions - this is afterall the main reason that phonetap evidence has been resisted by the authorities.
Whilst I accept that David Davis has high principles I do wonder if his stance on this issue has more to do with his desire to get back in the political limelight after his farcical re-election campaign.
I don't think the Tories would have acted very different in Government and I don't think that the vast majority of the public care one way or the other.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
Any comment on insinuations that the crucial Glenrothes by-election result was "engineered" by an unusually high number of postal votes and what has since happened to the marked return?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/feb/03/snp-glenrothes-byelection
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2009/02/03/newsstory12588327t0.asp
Complain about this comment
As usual, people here are not stepping back and looking at the thing logically. The Government survives by the innate ability of 99% of the British population to mindlessly beieve everything they are told and then go yapping on about the easiest 5-second soundbite, rather than the real meat.
OK, let's split this up a bit.
1. An Ethiopian refugee takes it into his head to leave the country. At that exact second, our interest in him stopped, he rescinded his refugee status here. He may or may not then have been playing with people who are hardly our best friends in the borderlands of Waziristan, and certainly admits to having spent a considerable amount of time examining the virtues of the Taleban. Whether that extended to involvement with Al Quaida is uncertain, given that the US have not presented their case before a court of law in what is legally defined within Europe as a reasonable time, however it was almost certainly enough for him not to be welcomed back to the UK. It is therefore somewhat bemusing that he then presented himself at Karachi Airport en route back to the UK. The rest is another matter: most of the comments here are ignorant both of the facts and of the experience of the techniques in use, so are frankly unqualified to say.
2. Initially refusing to help because he is not a British citizen and because the US refused to deal with third-party countries, a decision supported by the Appeals Court, in December 2007 David Miliband requested the release of five internees on the grounds that Guantanamo Bay was being closed. Four were indeed released and returned to Saudi, this is the fifth. As commented on by Kirsty Wark on the Newsnight blog of 21.8.2008, US military judges at Guantanamo Bay found that the British security service had colluded in his unlawful detention, and that the UK Government is under a duty to disclose evidence to his defence team which he claims supports his case about torture. At that time, Lord Justice Thomas said evidence relating to the case should be disclosed, saying it was "essential", but the British Government demurred, on the grounds which are now reported on. It is consequently most peculiar that the Bush Administration then threatened to withdraw intelligence cooperation if Britain passed the information to his defence team as ordered by the US' own military court! As Miliband now denies there was ever any such demurral, he wants it both ways and the courts are likely to ensure that he receives his desires.
The charges were subsequently dropped in October, but he remains imprisoned, effectively through Miliband's own incompetence.
3. On the larger scale, certain criticisms have been levied here about the Geneva Convention. Those wishing to address this point must find a way of differentiating between irregular militia and the civilian population as a whole: it is inequitable to bring constraints to bear on authority seeking to resist such insurgency and yet allow such paramilitary forces to blend into the background population with impunity, it's the same situation as subsists in the Gaza Strip. In Rahere's opinion, the Convention should be strengthened to make a clear distinction, that such militia must either conform to the provisions and responsibilities of Military Units, or cease armed conflict and be treated as civilians, or be treated as spies, who have no rights whatsoever. They cannot be allowed to benefit from the best of both worlds and yet fail to take on the responsibilities of either.
Complain about this comment
Milliband was pathetic when interviewed by Matt Frei. It was typical policital spesk -
Frei - did the British government know that the US were torturing the prisoner?
Milliband - The British government does not condone torture.
Frei - did the British government know that the US were torturing the prisoner?
Milliband - The British government does not condone torture.
Frei - that's all by the by, did the British government know that the US were torturing the prisoner?
Milliband - The British government does not condone torture.
I wanted to shake him. It is either yes or no. The answer, clearly, beinf yes.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Nick - the case can be found here:
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2009/152.html
(and my thoughts on the matter are here:
http://sunset-guy.livejournal.com/8259.html)
Complain about this comment
"..Binyam Mohamed, who has alleged British involvement in torture.."
I like the word "..alleged.."
Binyam Mohamed profile
A man with a grudge? maybe he's telling lies? a little strange that people are taking his word for it so easily. Considering the information in the above link.
Guantanamo bay and torture are unacceptable You don't have to be special to know that.
Complain about this comment
194. aye_write
ouuucchhhh, youre a tough lot, no wonder we never truely conquered!
Perhaps youd better take the oil when you leave.
Complain about this comment
197. At 1:26pm on 05 Feb 2009, lambrettaforever wrote:
"Did we torture luftwaffe fliers for hints on where the next nights bombing raid would be?"
===
Yes we did actually, we tortured Germans both during and after WWII, so we have no moral high ground to stand on!
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.history.war.world-war-ii/2006-01/msg01137.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2006/apr/03/uk.freedomofinformation
Complain about this comment
201. At 1:33pm on 05 Feb 2009, DisgustedOfMitcham2 wrote:
Slightly off topic, but re the "re- depression" comment:
We all know that the difference between a recession and a depression is that a recession is when the other guy loses his job, and a depression is when you lose your job. I expect Gordon Brown was just anticipating the results of the next general election.
===
A recession is when YOUR MATE loses his job.
A depression is when YOU lose your job.
Recovery is when Gordon Brown loses HIS job!!
Complain about this comment
189. At 12:54pm on 05 Feb 2009, ivanbaruch wrote:
Of course we could always have more bombings and terror on our streets if you would prefer it.
OR
We could authorise our Government to detain without charge and torture to extract confessions?
Depends what you want your Country to look like.
I believe the model I've described has been tried before, but not in the UK - but we do seem to have set off on the journey.
Complain about this comment
193. grandantidote
Youre not wrong, if I was in that position I would run for tool box too, and even if he did then tell me where my child was buried Id keep going just for the fun of it, then Id slot him when Id had enough. I might even go after a few of his mates, just to be thorough.
The problem is that I am not very rational when it comes to people like this. Id happily lynch paedophiles for example, sometimes even before a court sat to hear the case.
However, the state has to take a more evolved position, it needs to hold idiots like me back from turning our society into a baying mob hell bent on Kangaroo courts and carrot controlled justice.
Our democracy, civil liberties and human rights have been fought for for a millennia, further more these rights will cost more lives to preserve and retain.
So while I personally might reach for the testicle clamps; I really dont want to live in a state that does.
And I suspect you dont either..... really.
Complain about this comment
"Now I dont know about all you nice people out there but a trip to my tool box for my mole grips and the thought of testicals would spring to my mind, what would you do?"
well as you want to play parlour games, just exactly what would you do if someone had *mistaken* you for the kidnapper in that old-hat Dirty-Harry scenario you propose?
You cant tell them what they want to hear, as you DONT KNOW, and having first tried to persuade them of that with no succes ('cos thats what the real kidnapper would do too') you'ld then make up a while load of complete nonsense in the hope that they'll leave you alone for an hour or two while they go and check wether its true. Hardly helps the 'buried child' does it?
In any case your original scenario is irrelevant
I'm an individual NOT a govt If I choose to go get a pair of pliers and a blowtorch and work over some sort of kidnapping pervert (who I somehow 100-percent know is involved) in order to obtain the release of my child from mortal danger, then I take the consequences of that on the chin.
If I spend the rest of my days in clink for it so be it. Thats my *individual* choice
What I dont do is have the barefaced cheek to get up the next morning dress myself back up as a policeman and enforce both international and UK laws on others, that I've completely run roughshod over myself.
Nor do I use their breaches of those laws as a moral-laden excuse to invade their country and change their regime, or force MY countries legal system to button their lips so I and my allies can continue to do so.
Thats not only hypocrisy its also a red rag to a bull when it comes encouraging anyone with a perceived greivance against me to take their greivance further.
I'm not a pacifist some wars ARE worth fighting. Provided my country hasn't stirred up a hornets nest and brought a problem on itself by its uninvited meddling in the affairs of others, then if folks decide they want to overthrow my elected government and replace it with a theocratic police state that resorts to torture and fear to maintain its rule, they can expect me to resist.
But I'm damned if Im going to have my OWN govt turn itself into an autocratic police state that relies on random torture in order to take them on.
Particularly when such measures arent neccessary to defeat that opponent, but are only being put in place to isolate the public from bearing its fair share of that war.
If a war IS worth fighting then the public should be prepared to run the risk of being casualties.
If they arent willing to accept that risk then the public should call a halt to it and get its elected leaders around the negotiating table
If the public persist in fighting that war, yet STILL demands that they should take no share of the casualties, then that public are nothing but a bunch of cowards who arent worth fighting for.
Complain about this comment
I full and wholeheartitly understand everyone's utter outrage on this (and one in which I share!!) But I have read at least no exaduration 5 so far, and there will be most likely more to come, comments stating something to the affect of "If they (the US) want to withdraw intellijence cooperation with us then fine bring it on!! Our intellijence is far more valuable to them than their's is to us! And besides, does anyone ever really trust the USA on anything anymore anyway? I certainly don't!!"
First, as I've said before I am absolutely apalled at my nation's threats and can't understand why Obama hasn't jumped all over the Republicans exposing this story like no body's business!! Apparently he is still in that fantacy land of us "not being red Americans or blue Americans but the United States of America." Total crap! The "red Americans" tortured shamelessly and forced our friends into it against their will!!
But as someone who once worked for the NSA and has seen first hand the level of our nations cooperation, and after reading the "tentions" link in the article I posted above, I'm sorry but I don't think breaking off cooperation is the best thing for us. The possible ramifications are too great. What is neede instead is a manditory demotion down to Kindergarton for everyone in the United States governmennt, so that they can learn how to play nicely with others!!!!!
And so my nation got it wrong on a few recent issues in the world, that does not mean that everything the US intellijence survices discovers is "rubbish!!!" I doubt that UK intellijence gets it right 100% of the time either!!
UK intellijence is invaluable -- of this no one doubts!! But then again so is US intellijence!
Obama is really pissing me off!! You don't punish the party that screwed our nation over with two cabinit appointments, surrendering to their wishes in the stimulus bill, and not prosicuting them for crimes commited!! Perhaps Obama is confused as to the deffinition of "punishment?" Screw the "United States of America!!" Democrats should make the Republicans beg for mursy after what they did to us and our reputation!!!
Complain about this comment
199. Fubar_Saunders
Id like to shine a little sunshine into the darkness of dilema for a second.
Hows this for a position.
In war and in the heat of battle, things happen, that will always be the case, mainly because pumped up troopers who have just seen their mates killed and maimed are going to be a bit unhappy with the enemy.
Once captured and under control, prisoners are treated humanly and the rule of law applies.
Once you venture out of this world then that is where everything gets grey and murky and dilemas such as who to torture and to what degree creep in.
Thats when it all gets very messy.
Complain about this comment
#202 Pot
I'm not trying to wind you up, and I understand you share my disgust.....but from what I remember from my days of christian indoctrination I think the Old Testament was somehwat less 'love thy neighbour' than the New.
I may well be wrong, if so I bow to your greater knowledge, but you've got to remember that the New testament is made up of a group of texts chosen by committee at the behest of a pagan Roman emperor who wanted to ensure that the right 'message' got across. As such it's a bit out of date....and not even a good read.
It's not personal.....I just think the world would be a better place without religion. Maybe there wouldn't be so many of our muslem brothers wanting to become martyrs if all they had to look forward to was a view of grass ....from beneath.
Whatever, the judges in this case feel that they have been unduly pressured by a foreign power with the support of our own government. In my view, that alone is cause for concern.
Complain about this comment
What's the problem? Obama said we will not torture period, so what gives!!
Complain about this comment
#173
'do onto others as you would them do onto you'?
To that Homer Simpson said; 'Yeah, that's gonna work!'
'If you would not like to be tortured or detained for 42 days, do not inflict it on the others'.
How about 'if you do not want to be tortured or detained for 42 days, do not become a terrorist'? You might be surprised that I do not fear being imprisoned for 42 days. Can you guess why?
Complain about this comment
The fact is that the UK government have signed up to various treaties that preclude the use of torture.
By knowingly allowing redition flights to use UK airports, or to to be aware that UK nationals, people carrying UK passports or anyone else have been effectively kidnapped, detained illegally and tortured at the request of a foreign government is absolutely unjust and illegal in international eyes.
Not only that, but to collude with a foreign government to pervert the course of justice in a UK court should in my mind result in the sack of ALL those involved.
Another case that springs to mind is that of the hacker fighting extradition to the US. I just wonder how fair a hearing he is getting.
Its no wonder there is a massive cover up with regard to complicity in torture. If hard evidence comes to light, I just wonder how interested the International Criminal Court would be in prosecuting those involved?
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#193. grandantidote wrote:
"They may be willing to die, quickly, thats a different think entirely to being tortured. "
True, some people will give in to torture, but my main point was: what if you have an innocent person by mistake!? You torture them and they cannot possibly give you the information. The most often quoted scenario for justifying torture is the Ticking Time Bomb scenario (watch "24" or read Bruce Schneier's blog for detail). In this scenario, a guilty terrorist just has to waste your time with false information long enough fro the bomb to go off.
Also, there are cases of people not giving in to torture by the SS in WWII so it does not always work. In any case, SOE agents were given suicide pills to avoid torture.
"We have seen situations in the past were kidnappers have taken children and on occasion buried them in the ground with a limitted air supply and no chance of being found, some have survived some havn't.
Now supposing its your child, ... what would you do?"
What if the kidnappers have the wrong child though? If it's not your child then you are far less likely to give them a ransom. Torture relies totally on getting the right person, which is something you can never guarantee.
Furthermore, what you are saying is rather worrying. Are you advocating that not only do we (UK/US) torture terrorist SUSPECTS, but we also torture and potentially kill their children too!?
The goal of the War on Terror should be to eradicate tyrants and barbarity - not to become barbarous tyrants ourselves!
Complain about this comment
So who in newlabour HQ decided that the party line on this would be .. what about Pinochet/Galtieri/Reagan blah blah blah?
When are newlabour apologists going to actually recognise they were supposed to be the government for the past twelve years and take responsibility for their actions?
The economy? The iraq war? Guantnamo bay? Wrecking the pension system? Racking up debt to unheard of levels?
This kind of selecto-vision is like talking to a goldfish.. what guv? me guv? no guv? don't remember that guv?
Try that at an election that you will be holding while presiding over an economy and a banking system and a housing market in shreds.
Call it. Call an election.
Complain about this comment
I am a bit confused with the comments and press reporting
I do not agree with torture.
But this person until he is proved innocent was part of the terrorists network that is trying to kill innocent british people, including chidren. Who have not done them any harm other than be british citizen.
Therefore people and the press should remember this
Complain about this comment
#212 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
"194. aye_write
ouuucchhhh, youre a tough lot, no wonder we never truely conquered!
Perhaps youd better take the oil when you leave."
LOL! Well, hmm.... :-P
PS You're only saying that as you've already ordered your tartan passport and got your accommodation sorted ;-)
Complain about this comment
209. alijay034
I agree with all that you write. No doubt, the Thought Police are waiting to take us away and reeducate us!
Complain about this comment
199 fubar
Nice 1, this is a huge non-issue.
212 carrots & 194 a-w
'We', ie the Northumbrian English, did conquer the ex-rulers of what is now Lowland Scotland between the 6th and 8th centuries, wiping much of the population out [probably including plenty of torture on both sides], that's why 'they' are for the most part actually 'us', genetically indistinguishable, speaking the same language etc. [Let's really not do this 1 again].
What was the treacherous act GB committed against the Scots- it probably never made the news down here, southern bias an'all?
Complain about this comment
Gosh, it seems that the thought police are out again. I would just love to know how my comment #191 broke the house rules, unless it's a new rule to be critical of the government.
Let's try rephrasing.
David Miliband, when interviewed on Channel 4 last night, looked to me as if he definitely had something to hide.
Complain about this comment
If there has been torture so be it. That is my view. These extremists dont care about us.
People will think im wrong and critise me and say im a racisit but im not.I have many muslim friends and have spent 4 years working in Iraq with them.
Extremist have taken our fellow countrymen and allies one of them a very good freind of mine. He was eventually found 6 months later in a shallow grave his body could only be identified through DNA.
Cause we are civilised we should be upset over this i dont think so 90 % of the info gained through these methods probably resulted in saving inosant life that would have destroyed by these monsters who have no respect for anyother persons way of life or beliefs.
People need to start waking up and realise what is actually happening in the world. Stop looking for people to blame and refering to past events that they have never known all be it through news and the web. We live in a society that is afraid to say or do anything that might imply we are racist or trying to cause trouble. This is down to all these PC, Treehuggers, Dogooders call them what you may making us feel this way by telling us this is what should be happening.
Too many of these so called respect politicians rant on about these things being wrong but they just say that to score points.
Wake up and start thinking for yourself. Look at the bigger picture and dont be so quick to judge people who do things to protect the very libirties that we hold so dear.
As i said prior im not racist im a realist and can think for myself. I dont complain for the need to complain to make myself feel better.
Complain about this comment
Over 3 hours to moderate comments is unacceptable, BBC. If you do not have the necessary staff, you should suspend moderating, and let bloggers self-censor.
You are a public service broadcaster funded by the public, under threat of prosecution.
If you cannot do the job properly, then change the system!
Complain about this comment
219#
Carrots;
Youre absolutely 100% correct. Thankfully, during my time in uniform, I didnt go into combat, but I knew people who did. I cannot begin for a second to get inside their minds to understand what they saw.
Nobody can, unless you've actually done it.
I figured it would make a change if the government put as much energy into providing the troops with the right kit to do the job in the first place, getting rid of snatch land rovers, etc more body armour, with the same vigour that they do in court-martialling their own men.
Ho hum.
Complain about this comment
I see Channel 4 News reveals that America did issue a stark warning that there would be serious consequences for UK-US intelligence sharing, if material in a torture trial ever became public
The Foreign Secretary David Miliband has today denied it again, this time in the House of Commons.
But the exchange of letters between his legal council at the US State Department lawyer, "affirms in the clearest terms" the nature of the risk and threat to the Anglo American special relationship.
So, is it a cover up of British complicity in torture of a Guantanamo detainee, or is it simply a matter of national security?
Complain about this comment
Torture is a crime and is a crime that transcends excuses of natioanl security. If a UK citizen is accused of torture that should be sent to court like any criminal and the government shoud at the forefront od bringing these people to justice just like they brought Caradic etc to justice!
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#227 cheerywelshwizard
"But this person until he is proved innocent was part of the terrorists network that is trying to kill innocent british people, including chidren."
Ah, there's nothing like the good old 'rule of law' that we're hearing so much about. I had been under the misapprehension that it was innocent until proven guilty, perhaps Bush and Guantanamo have changed that forever? It's all about precedent don't you know!
#228 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
#212 aye_write
Did I hear right, did someone say there's oil in Scotland? I thought it had all gone....?
Complain about this comment
#230 MunichMadrid7980
Clearly you haven't been watching the BBC's 'A History of Scotland' with the unintentionally funny (watch those close ups!) Neil Oliver! Does raping and pillaging count as torture, plenty of it in those programmes?
Complain about this comment
228. aye_write
LOL you know know that.
England is doomed, its the bonny land of whisky and kilts for me, plus a small estate in the south France just to cover all bases.
Complain about this comment
#230 MunichMadrid7980
That's very interesting about the 'jolly' conquests and all ;-)
But, as for what's relevant.
We are by our very design and nature tribal (I don't like the word - makes me think of running around in animal skins, but is it really any worse than your obsessional DNA description?), and anyone who says they aren't is deluding themselves.
Check out the structure of human society since, well, since whenever.
That is how we are and how we see ourselves, family, community, region, nation - we struggle to cope with supranational
This is and has been the case since way before we had 'invented' the alphabet, never mind termed and identified DNA.
It's social, not scientific.Therefore, rightly, Scots, in Scotland as deliniated by the modern borders, regard and understand themselves to be Scottish.
It is how our communities are set up and managed, not how we label the carbon compounds that we are made from, that matters and has a causal effect.
I've forgotten your point, but I think I may have covered it? No, it was re Gordon. His treacherous act? Trying to deny Scotland and his Scottishness the same status and legitimacy he sees fit to adorn on Britishness. Its net result is that I am regarded as lesser. Well, I'm not.
Substituting Scottishness with Britishness would require an (unlikely) almighty en mass brain training session but more probably some of your super-duper DNA therapy -wait, you don't have some?
Games a bogey then (google it).
Hope this is an argumentative enough post for you Munich - I would not want to let you down!
;-)
;-)
Complain about this comment
Milliband's assurances are about as believable as Tony Blair's . . . this whole shabby business bears many of Blair's hallmarks --- but then so it would --- he led us into this sorry mess in the first place.
Complain about this comment
No226 robin
You appear to be becoming more and more irrational by the day. I think a little more thought and less vile prejudice in your contributions would serve you well. You may like to consider the following points in response to your last post.
Only fools think politicians run free-market economies.
The decision to go to war in Iraq received overwhelming support in the House of Commons, particularly from the Tory opposition.
The torture camp was set up by Bush and his cronies.
My four (small pensions) all seem to be doing well.
The increase in debt, in the main was to prevent the total collapse of the financial system. Do you think that was a bad decision?
Complain about this comment
200 banburyg
Let me start - what about Tony Blairs mate GW Bush - I expect extreme rendition and water boarding are fine?
Are you even going to begin to compare Bush with the people that I mentioned they tortured and murdered their own people to hold onto power, Bush love him or hate him acted to defend his country after the worst and most callous act of terrorist ever carried out in the history of the world, over the top, not in my book!
Complain about this comment
capnbob @121 wrote:
"Am I the only one finding the racists who think torture is fine as long it's brown people on the receiving end fairly depressing?"
Islamist fundamentalist terrorists come in all colours.
Complain about this comment
217 lambrettafotever
#well as you want to play parlour games, just exactly what would you do if someone had *mistaken* you for the kidnapper in that old-hat Dirty-Harry scenario you propose?
Perhaps you should read again what I actually said
Now supposing its your child, and when passing the ransom over you manage to get hold of the person that has buried your child but he says he's not going to tell you where he has burried her/him
the emphasis being on"get hold of the person"
In view of your cavalier attitude to a crime that has occurred in the USA several times,
I can only suppose that you have no children.
Hardly a parlour game to the parents of that child no more than the ruthless slaughter of two and a half thousand people was when going about their normal every day life.
The rest of your comments are purely hypathetical and deserve no consideration.
Complain about this comment
I agree with ikamaskeip @144.
Furthermore, even if only out of self-interest, I trust any US administration to look out for Britain's basic interests of freedom and independence more than I trust this Labour government.
Complain about this comment
#199 Fubar_Saunders
Fubar, one must admire the way you struggle with an issue and win ;-)
I am not innocent enough to expect torture not to go on. Like...
Carrots in #216...
I would be very wary in the extreme of accepting it as any part of our organised government. Here's why.
Yes, if someone terribly hurt my child I would without getting into a sweat or rage beat the living daylights out of him/her, cooly, sane in the knowledge it was quite deserved.
The other half of this win-win is that I get to walk away afterwards leaving the agony of his/her crimes behind, swapped for a sense of acceptance that it had happened and a new ability to resolve to able to move on.
BUT, this is a situation between me and one other, simple as that. When a state gets involved there is an element of pre-determined calculation that can only lead the kind of torture we are discussing today as being labelled a sin. I am NOT religious. (More of a moral rebel?! ;-)
Neither would I want my earlier vigilante beating actions to be legal. (I'd do them with a mask and anti-DNA suit on obviously - kidding!)
You must think, if you will, of every suspected terrorist and other such criminal when they were born. No automatic machine gun came out by their side, nor was there a drugs package nor did they recite a 'jihadist' mantra. No, they were born just like you and me, an innocent baby.
No matter what wrong path, screw ups, abhorrent deeds etc. they later adopt, NO baby is born evil. No, it is usually some extreme circumstance that seduces them. And "There but for the grace of God...".
We would be surprised to find I think that if we swapped the good people of England with the good people of some oppressed war zone (you pick), you English (it would of course equally apply to us Scots) would have your fair share of suicide bombers, terrorists and the like, in the vast majority of cases - we few of us are special.
So in that respect we are not superior. We have no God given right to meat out justice as we would if we were better than others (so allowing us to do so).
Rather great care should be taken here.
There is good enough reason not to commit rape, physical abuse and murder of everyday civilians. These are correctly seen as sinful acts - acts committed against innocent people = wrong.
Are acts of torture in interrogation different? Well, the acts are clearly sinful, as they inflict degrading suffering on another human being. They cannot be made to be seen as good acts.
Are the perpetrators ennobled so as they can assume permission to perform these acts? No, they are the same, just human.
Are the victims deserving of such acts? Well, are the victims of rape deserving of that? Clearly no. Do we punish the offenders of rape by administering beatings, physical torture, mental abuse? No, we put them in jail, proud to feel we are civilised. They are humans, people, babies once upon a time, not animals fit to be destroyed.
So why do we see fit to 'punish' the offenders of terrorism in an extremely non civilised way, with the 'justified' use of torture to be used to meet our aims?
Morally it is also wrong. We all of us were someone's beautiful baby once.
However, it is not a perfect world. We would like to but we cannot defeat the dangerous wayward factions without some dangerous wayward methods at our disposal. I have no doubt torture goes on. Many times we are between a rock and a hard place and when forced to choose I'm afraid we must choose our own.
But I hope all those perpetrators of institutionalised torture remember my earlier words, do not get 'geared up' by the effectiveness of the 'execution' of their work, do not lose sight of the fact of our humanity, and keep all our humble beginnings in mind. And may hope then remain.
Complain about this comment
Love it
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/4528690/President-Barack-Obama-meets-Tony-Blair-before-Gordon-Brown.html
Poor old gordon
Complain about this comment
225 simonw3
a reasonable and meaured post until you got to
Furthermore, what you are saying is rather worrying. Are you advocating that not only do we (UK/US) torture terrorist SUSPECTS, but we also torture and potentially kill their children too!?
what the hell does that mean.
Complain about this comment
Over 3 hours to moderate comments is unacceptable, BBC. If you do not have the necessary staff, you should suspend moderating, and let bloggers self-censor.
You are a public service broadcaster funded by the public, under threat of prosecution.
If you cannot do the job properly, then change the system!
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re my #248
I forgot to add, in answer to why do we see it justified to torture by way of a policy, I'd mention the part of it that's fear led and driven (fear of attack etc. etc.).
So I'd mention, fear is never usually a good motivator for good decisions.
End!
Complain about this comment
I am no advocate of torture. However I believe that we need to understand the difference between idealism and realism. "Idealism" is driven by a perfectionist vision of reality built on certain moral absolutes. We need moral absolutes to guide us, but often we are confronted by serious moral dilemmas in which "the righteous course of action" is often simply "the course of the lesser evil". To an idealist this realisation is anathema.
"Idealism" works very well in the comfortable studies or lecture halls of academia. It makes a lot of sense in the debating chamber of the House of Commons. It is wonderful as a way of stirring up the faithful at a party conference (we all remember the idealistic "British Jobs for British Workers" and "No Return to Boom and Bust"). In other words, it works beautifully in theory.
But the real test of "idealism" is in the factory, on the battlefield, down the back streets of deprived urban ghettoes and in the dirty work of protecting the innocent from predators and mass-murderers.
The realist, on the other hand, acknowledges the role of moral principles, but is forced to apply these principles in the dirt, pain and blood of real life. That is what we need to remember when we debate the issue of torture.
Complain about this comment
#238 ScotInNotts
"#228 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
#212 aye_write
Did I hear right, did someone say there's oil in Scotland? I thought it had all gone....?"
Come up to Aberdeen and ask that. My husband would not be earning circa £90k a year (not working offshore) if there wasn't much oil to be got.
Life extension of fields and improvements in production technology means that there are significant reserves left for a significant no. of years.
I'm afraid you have bought into an urban myth (Westminster driven??).
Do you also believe in other urban myths, such as eat your crusts and you get hairs on your chest
OR
we Scots are scroungers living on handouts from your taxes?
Not true.
Not true.
Not true.
Complain about this comment
199 fubar saunders
exellent post I agree with practically all you say nice to hear a bit of non biased sense on here,
Don't agree about Milliband though he's in a very difficult position he cant afford to offend the USA and at the same time has to justify whats going on to the british people. those that are interested that is.
Complain about this comment
232. smashingjoeblogger
OK lets just run with your position for a moment.
Please define the rules of engagement for the application of torture.
Try to define:
Whom are we allowed to torture
What suspected crimes is torture permitted to be used in order to establish guilt.
Levels of suspicion required
Who decides and what qualification do they require in order to instigate the process of torture.
Accepted pain levels and time periods permitted.
We need some rules of engagement after all.
Complain about this comment
232smashing joe
I think you have had the MMR jab
Mysoginist, Misanthropic and Racist
(I admit there's nothing mysoginist in it but I couldn't think of another 'M')
Complain about this comment
If the US ‘Intelligence’ is of the same calibre as they supplied about Saddams WMDs, prior to the invasion of Iraq they can keep it. On second thoughts prepare the Isle of Wight for an invasion!
Complain about this comment
While torture is both morally bankrupt and, usually, of little practical intelligence benefit, what was an Etheopian who had gained asylum in the UK doing in Pakistan?
Complain about this comment
CarrotsneedaQUANGO2 @216,
Very eloquent - and persuasive.
Suggestion: If we bring back capital punishment we can have the best of both worlds. :-)
Complain about this comment
#237 And Finally
Message to moderator:
I thought I'd have a problem with this bit of irony. But that's what is, irony, nothing offensive or ill intended.
Where's your edge?
And you're getting it for free.....not paying Wossy to say things a trillion times worse (I never would have dared use a figure like that before this financial crisis) and a zillion times more offensive.
Torture is going on in this world, not in our name, but with our leaders' consent. Where's your lead to stop it? Take the moral high ground?
If what the government don't want us to see is all bad, then let us make up our own minds or let us just go and ask Obama's permission to do so because he's all for open and transparent governance; isn't that what he said at his inauguration?
I'm sure he won't mind revealing some of his predecessor's tricks in office but this is the problem the present UK government have.
For the last twelve years, they have poodled up to the US and now we have a President who wants to come clean with the dirty politics, we are going to have show our stained hands.
It's not nice, I appreciate, but at some stage it's going to come out.
Everyone knows that torture goes on and everyone turns a blind eye to it because it does bring results.
It will be always be allowed to go on until someone gets caught like now, then it's very embarassing, one glosses it over with excuses like 'national security', lie low for a while, and when there is a lull and everyone is looking the other, you go and do exactly as you did before.
Whether you like it or not (and I don't), it's It's the way of the world, me old son; it's always gone on and always will which is why you should moderate more sensibly with my last posting.
Complain about this comment
#240 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
and Munich and Fubar
Interesting, if I may be so cheeky to pinch your compatriate JohnConstable's post from the BT blog....
....he echoes (and I didn't prompt him!) sentiments I've heard on here re England being doomed, constitutional change being required and no groundswell of opinion, due to apathy, being around - boo :-(
"117 JohnConstable
I'm afraid my fellow native English kin are far too apathetic about politics to stir from their slumbers.
That is why we English are currently witnessing England being run mostly by expat Scottish professional politicians.
As I see it, the only hope for those of us native English who want English independence, within the framework of the EU, is for the SNP to succeed in Scotland and correspondingly Plaid in Wales.
Which will free us all."
He may be right. You may need to wish us well, to get yourselves well.
Or Carrots's big Aberdeenshire mansion has room enough for you all!
;-)
Serious, though again.
The trend, and there is one, towards more open xenophobia I'm seeing as I read some of the threads on here, is a worry. It's unbecoming of you England. I'd thought better of you, you are upstanding and all that.
I hope some of you (not going to pick on anyone - hopefully they will realise who they are) no longer feel you're in possession of a God given right to pass judgement on foreign nationals. It's not as simple as they are here taking your jobs. I think you know, but emotions (or national habit?) leads you to react otherwise.
Understanding will be the key here. Unfortunately your government will not in any way help you to do that. Beware.
For what it's worth, I agree with
#16 threnodio on MM's
"I am with Man of Milan at #8 on this one. This dispute has opened a nasty can of worms and there is worse to come."
and #8 Man from Milan on MM's
"Now Italian trade unions are beginning to demand British workers there go back home.
The xenophobic British workers have started something ugly. Shame on them."
Oh dear.
Complain about this comment
#244
Just check on Chirchill and the irst country to mobilise in WWI, now that was treachery.
There can be no justification for torture, none whatsoever, it makes us all morally bankrupt. We are all corrupted, we have the blood of innocents on our hands. Sometimes I feel very sad, and shameful about what has been done in our name in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
The trouble is it is soldiers following orders, just like Nazi Germany. No difference whatsoever. Now we even use the private military contractors to do the dirty work still paid for by us, through our taxes.
Complain about this comment
It looks like we'd be better off if Jeremy Clarkson was writing this blog. His reported description of the Golem seems to be, in modern parlance, spot on.
Complain about this comment
244 grandantidote
"Bush love him or hate him acted to defend his country after the worst and most callous act of terrorist ever carried out in the history of the world, over the top, not in my book!"
So what you are saying is that you do condone kidnapping and torture (waterboarding etc.) if its being done to defend your country.
I really don't like your "book".
Complain about this comment
Hardly dynamite
This is something most people already knew
It was palpably obvious for years that Blair and his henchman could not care less about UK citizens being tortured by or suffering injustice from its allies. the unqual extradition treaty whereby the US could have anyone extraditied but we got nothing in return proves this
For Blair sucking up to Bush came first, certaily before the Uks best interests and if little people should suffer injustice that was a price he was willing for other people to pay
However either way it puts our rulers in an odious light.
If they decided to do nothing and let it happen then this shows they did not care
If the US threatened to withold intelligence if we complained then effectively they would allow a terrorist attack to take place unless they could carry on torturing our own people
hardly the conduct of a friendly power or a decent government
Complain about this comment
Is cockey Milliband suggesting confidential information if revealed, the US will not share future intelligence with the UK?
Absolute nonsence. Intelligence is two way traffic.
Let the US come out publically and suggest otherwise. It is no good this inexperienced Foreign Sec second guessing the US.
Remember, when lies are told supported by obfuscation, Democracy dies.
Complain about this comment
The answer here is, surely, remarkably straightforward:
- A civilised society does not practice torture, under any circumstances.
- A civilised society does not connive at, or condone, torture under any circumstances.
- A civilised society does not cover up, or connive at covering up, breaches of morality conducted or connived at by its public servants.
- A civilised society respects its moral and contractual obligations.
Thus seen, it is surely a very straightforward matter of principle, to which technicalities such as the nationality status of the victim are surely wholly irrelevant.
Complain about this comment
Dear Nick
I do not know weither youve spotted it but this torture Crisis is being over shadowed by the American Afghanistan crisis, Milliband is off the real picture by far, Torture is now on the Back burner because Politics has taken a very different turn.
President Karzai, and the US are at logger heads, , and he is turning towards Russia for Help, at the same time Pakistan is blowing up the supply routes for Nato, and the Kyrgystan politicians are denying the US use of an Airbase, with pressur from Russia,.
This smacks of conspiracy , and a move against Nato, and its Miltary objestive, --- if Milliband has not spoted this Tortuer will be the least of his problems.
Complain about this comment
This guy is NOT british - the BBC keeps muddying the waters with the term 'british resident' but that is misleading.
He says he is Ethiopian. He claimed asylum. He was never granted it but for some reason he was still here. Well at least for a while, until he went to Pakistan to fight or deal drugs if you believe him.
The new JFK (or is it the new Jimmy Carter?) says he will shut Guantanamo - where will this 'Ethiopian' be going then?
Frankly my biggest concern is that in a short while all these legal and political stunts will result in him being returned to England with a massive cost in terms of either risk to the public or financial cost for surveillance to manage that risk. (+ free housing, + benefits etc)
If he is 'Ethiopian' then lets see him sent back to Ethiopia, all this stuff about he was kept in a cell without a comfy pillow is a side show.
Complain about this comment
Surely there should be a more safe and humane way of extorting information from dangerous guilty individuals bent on mayhem in order to save the lives of thousands. It should not be beyond the bounds of human knowledge to come up with a foolproof way of establishing guilt.
Complain about this comment
#265
Spot on - Rahere never thought he'd be subscribing to his daughter's signature of the petiiton suggesting Clarkson for PM, but the adjective qualifying the noun he used was a stroke of absolute genius. As he wasn't referring to the childhood accident, he's got nothing to apologise for.
Complain about this comment
203 Fairlopian
Sorry for the late response....been travelling.
No, not Cambridge, just the mythical Middle England that politicians like to talk about and do very little for.
And thanks for the offer to pray for me...but I really wouldn't waste your breath, point it in the direction of the poor sods who have been allegedly tortured with the complicity of our our leaders. And what a fine moral compass they obviously have....
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#255 aye write
I wasn't clear enough in my post about the oil, tongue in cheek you see.
Having read plenty of unionist posters arguing that very point i.e. RE on Brian's Blog, I thought I'd through it out there on this blog.
Hope that clears up the confusion, I'm with you on this one :-)
Complain about this comment
261. MaxSceptic
Suggestion: If we bring back capital punishment we can have the best of both worlds. :-)
Ive never really understood the point of capital punishment.
On the down side:
1. It certainly isnt a deterrent
2. The state does make mistakes and innocent people are killed.
3. The whole process is rather messy and very expensive.
4. I think locking someone away for the rest of their lives is actually worse.
On the upside:
1. It gives some a sense of justice and satisfies the call for retribution.
2. eerrrr struggling now
If some one killed my child, I think Id actually want the state to lock him up and throw away the key.
A quick clean kill would be too easy.
Complain about this comment
jon @ 271
all this stuff about he was kept in a cell without a comfy pillow is a side show
razor blades on privates? - you're obviously quite a rough, gruff and tough character Jon, am I right?
Complain about this comment
272:
Yeah, stick em in a room with Gollum for half an hour.
That'll learn 'em.
BTW:
Nice one Jezza, tell it like it is! Hardly surprised to see the usual neighbouring constituency Gollum sycophants rushing to his aid... the kind of honourable members who'se silence over Jonathon Ross has been defeaning (to my knoweldge anyway), yet as soon as Clarkson has a dig at the Dear Leader.... out they come in swarms like locusts.... pathetic and sycophantic.
Anybody see Hoon drowning on Question Time last night? Farrage acquiting himself reasonably well... certainly a darn sight better than Buff did.
Complain about this comment
255. aye_write
Youve gone and blown it, Now WE are gona have to share.
Just when I had em all thinking it had run out.
Complain about this comment
#277 2009, ScotInNotts
Yes, I see ;-)
Had to respond like that though:
1. does no harm to make the point for there are many more readers than posters
2. if made emphatically it would avoid the LONG discussions I've had with others on here - some days I'm in the mood, others I'm not!
"I'm with you on this one :-)"
Well your name would've been odd if you didn't, but GREAT! Glad to hear it. :-)
(You work in the oil industry?)
Complain about this comment
#250 grandantidote wrote:
"what the hell does that mean."
Earlier you advocated torture, and then you said that if you bury someone's child alive they are likely to comply with your demands.
You argument seems to be based on the fact that if torture isn't working then we are just not torturing them enough!
Furthermore, our government has signed up to several treaties banning torture. Therefore, they have a responsibility to uphold them. It matters not where the torture victims come from, what they are accused of, or what torturing anyone else has done in the past. The government is bound by anit-torture agreements and continually makes statements against torture.
If the government has been complicit in torture and rendition, then they are hypocrites at the very least, and they have made this country's signature on international agreements worthless.
Thankfully now, the US has a President with some morals who will act in the interest of the people. We can only hope for the same in our country one day!
Complain about this comment
Re my suppressed 276
All I asked was what the opposite of Top Gear is, in context....this being another one of the David Davis dossiers.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#281 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
Oh, no, I interpreted your joke sideways!! :-o
Replace #285 with LOL, cheeky but ever-friendly counterstatement, LOL etc. etc. :-(
Complain about this comment
TA Griffin (TAG)
Regarding outsourced military contractors and their less than transparent activities this article by a Captain in the USAF is quite illuminating:
http://www.usafa.edu/isme/JSCOPE05/Hedahl05.html
Outsourcing has existed in US armed forces for some trime now, but was restricted to mainly support roles e.g. maintenance contracts such as Babcock Engineering's role at running Rosyth dockyard. This changed radically post 9/11 when the US and certain spineless politicians connived to start a war against Iraq.
Dick Cheney the US Vice Pres used to work for Halliburton and coincidentally this firm won the lions share of new outsourced work. At first this was bodyguard duties, but "mission creep" set in and the thin wedge got wider and wider.
Now there are 180,000 private soldiers in Iraq which is more than the coalition forces! Their duties duplicate everything that regular soldiers do, to the extent that they are a separate army with full separate air support (NB their helicopter support is superior to that of the UK in Afghanistan). in addition they are heavily involved in interrogation and intelligence gathering activities.
Half of the interratogators at Abu Gharib (Saddam's favourite torture centre) are private contractors. 36 pct of cases where abuse occurred involved private contractors. The concern is that they are subject to the US Military Justice code nor to Iraqi civilian law; and certainly no Congressional or Parliamentary oversight. As they were hired by an Internal US Department (eg National Parks, Education etc) and not a US Defence departments they are not subject to US law.
On the intelligence side things are a bit murky (no surprise there then), some agents from CIA and MI6 say are recruited as contractors. They are then seconded to their original role by the outsourced company. By this artifice the US and UK governments are able to distance themselves from activities such as torture. So from this point of view the Ethiopians claim are credible - it is unlikely that his torturers showed him their latest pay slips!
I have come across an estimated annual spend of USD 100 Billion. This is difficult to authenticate, as the audit trail of transaction is byzantine to say the least. What is not clear however, is how much the coalition partners including the UK contribute.
If the UK has contributed I can only think of either selling gold reserves or if the Bank of England buys US Treasury bonds. But as the B of E reports have conveniently been made less transparent, this is not so easy to discern. Another option is if the UK buys some military hardware from the US at a price far in excess of actual cost. Trident anyone?
It is a can of worms, and it truly stinks. I think that when Obama realises the extent to which US governemnt domestic spending has been diverted to private contractors he will be devastated. New Orleans after Katrina has not been rebuilt yet has it?
Complain about this comment
Check out the following link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7845210.stm
This is what I want to see from my politicians - a sense of decency, public service and understanding that they spend our money.
NB: nowhere in the article does it say which party he is from. As this is a good news story about an MP and this is the BBC you can therefore guess which party it is.
Can't have a good news story about 'them', eh? Amazingly they do manage to mention the other party that they love so much in positive light.
That is all.
Complain about this comment
Jeremy Clarkson is in the news for calling Gordon Brown a
"one-eyed Scottish idiot".
Where can I sign the petition for Clarkson's Knighthood?
Complain about this comment
The insulting of peoples intelligence goes on and on, its not about the USA we knew what they will do we forget they came from Europe. What the UK wants to cover up is who was in the room water boarding people and running prisons to keep people in for no other reason than to torture and to lie about it. Cheney said water boarding was okay and what he said went. Blair knew all about it like Brown.
To me the real fear is that we the UK learn that we were not only allowing planes to take people to be tortured but were there in the room what race was it that were in with the Irish? Evil is in everyone and all it needs is the right to do it and backing from your master after all the Nazis were only doing what they were told, screams from Israel now.
We were more than just standing there but were hands on and it is this that many can not stomach along with the USA and others I have never understood how torturing people you will get any truth.
And for the last time to all those who miss the point Iraq and Saddam had nothing to do with 11/9 and both the USA and UK knew this but it has much to do with the plans of Israel and its friends.
Complain about this comment
#251 Carrots
Plagiarist!
;-)
Complain about this comment
I'm looking forward to the tenor of this debate changing when the cabinet papers on the invasion of Ifaq are released.
Just what was the evidence? And for how long are the newlabour apologists going to blether on about the toires supporting the war? Of course they supported it; they were presented with 'evidence' that the were weapons of mass destruction.
Where is the evidence please?
This war was not backed by the United nations and was the reason for the Londond and Madrid bombings and all newlabour apologists can bleat is 'you supported it too'
Pathetic.
Call an election.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"But this person until he is proved innocent was part of the terrorists network that is trying to kill innocent british people, "
Ok. I accuse you of being a terrorist. I thus get to torture you until you can prove you aren't.
Welcome back to the middle ages.
Complain about this comment
Someone tell me if I've got this wrong:
(a) Torture has very likely been used in this case
(b) The documents under discussion reveal the truth/untruth of (a)
(c) There is no actual issue of "National Security" outside of revealing the manner in which the detainees are treated
(d) So it's just another case of the "war on terrorism" being used to cover up something that the governments are embarrassed about
If we all really want a more honest world, we need to own up to our mistakes and morality on these issues.
Labour is acting DISGRACEFULLY by failing to stand up for what is MORALLY RIGHT.
Shame on them.
Complain about this comment
279. At 09:23am on 06 Feb 2009, sagamix wrote:
jon @ 271
all this stuff about he was kept in a cell without a comfy pillow is a side show
razor blades on privates? - you're obviously quite a rough, gruff and tough character Jon, am I right?
======================
I was looking more at the news coverage of this guy, rather than the general issues - I see this more as a news reporting blog rather than a general 'have your say' on torture.
Basic point: amnesty international reports torture in huge range of countries - it's not item one news on the TV or this site.
This bloke is not british, and I don't think dodgy phrases like 'british resident' should be used to confuse the issue.
If the yanks have him and he is 'Ethiopian' then I see it as a matter between the USA and Ethiopia - nothing to do with us.
If the new Jimmy Carter wants to release him in New York, fine.
If our wonderful government wants him back in England, paid for by my taxes, then that's something I'd like to see as item one news and a big debate.
Complain about this comment
Just to brighten up the day, lets hear Mr Clarksons view on the great leader of these democratic shores...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSfCbezPEJk
Complain about this comment
secret organisations within secret organisations reminds me of covert cia guns and drug smuggling operations and the setting up and sponsoring of pseudo-terrorist groups to overthrow legitimate governments like what has happened in previous american excursions into south america and the middle east in the past.
Complain about this comment
This blog is a huge lumbering clumsy operation of poor technology and workforce back up. The moderating is slow and bizarre and encourages some nutters to report anything and everything.
The public are having to pay for this operation in their licence fee and the more lumbering and laborious it is the more it will be costing.
I am not surprised Nick doesn't put up subjects very often. The wheels of its mechanism are amazingly slow in this day and age.
There are other quicker forums and blogs which are read and acted upon elsewhere and with a continuous supply of fresh contributors with up the minute and "now" ideas. A true reflection of the what the man on the street thinks.
Complain about this comment
289. At 10:18am on 06 Feb 2009, conscious-hypocrite wrote:
Check out the following link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7845210.stm
This is what I want to see from my politicians - a sense of decency, public service and understanding that they spend our money.
NB: nowhere in the article does it say which party he is from. As this is a good news story about an MP and this is the BBC you can therefore guess which party it is.
===
Ooops! He is a Conservative MP. Expect your post to be moderated, and that news story to disappear mucho pronto!
Complain about this comment
Isn't it a pity that this court case didn't come up before.
If, by revealing US secrets, the Americans had refused to share their intelligence with us Brits, perhaps we all might have been spared the WMD report that led to the invasion of Iraq.
How intelligent is US intelligence? Or ours for that matter?
PS I didn't think the invasion of Iraq and the toppling of Saddam was wrong; it's just that it should have been carried out with UN approval; not as result of Blair/Bush lies and political expedience.
Complain about this comment
290. At 10:25am on 06 Feb 2009, MaxSceptic wrote:
Jeremy Clarkson is in the news for calling Gordon Brown a
"one-eyed Scottish idiot".
Where can I sign the petition for Clarkson's Knighthood?
===
I don't see the problem, which part of his comment is factually incorrect?
You can sign a petition for him to becomePM here:
http://www.petitiononline.com/JC4PM/petition.html
Or join the Facebook group here:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2208998433
Complain about this comment
283 simon
I had a very poor education I'm afraid, but yours appears to have been worse than mine, the statement you show below certainly never came from me,
#Earlier you advocated torture, and then you said that if you bury someone's child alive they are likely to comply with your demands.
You couldn't be more wrong , If you are going to answer a post atleast read the post before you comment. You had two chances, I queried your post and you still got it wrong. I suppose a apology is out of the question.
#Thankfully now, the US has a President with some morals who will act in the interest of the people. We can only hope for the same in our country one day!
You know that do you? or are you again spouting off about something you now nothing about. you or I or any one else have any idea what sort of a president he will make, but we live in hope.
Complain about this comment
I've just read that Crash Gordon is upset that Jeremy Clarkson referred to him as a one eyed scottish idiot....Don't you just love it when the truth comes out .
Complain about this comment
you gotta larf! just read the article on here on the BBC site regarding Sarkozy's tv interview last night on French TV, had noticed nothing in the BBC article on the policy difference's he has with Gordon Brown on the credit crunch like like the VAT cut etc, unlike the other news organisations....
Complain about this comment
CLARKSON FOR P.M.
How long will the BBC put up with some that is not a labour luvvie in their ranks?
Complain about this comment
293 robin jd
# the toires supporting the war? Of course they supported it; they were presented with 'evidence' that the were weapons of mass destruction.
and I guess by your reckoning I suppose you think that the debate on going to war was carried out in a seperate chamber for Tories and they were given different evidence to the rest of the house
#This war was not backed by the United nations and was the reason for the Londond and Madrid bombings
in you words
#Where is the evidence please?
You like to drag up what you call facts try this one, what percentage of Tories voted to go to war and what percentage of labourites voted to go to war after both being given the same evidence.
I make no apologies for supporting the war with or without WMDs and I still support it.
The united nations had twelve resolutions ignored and did nothing, look around you at the mayhem in other countries,they do nothing but talk,they couldn't organise a bunfight never mind advocate a war.
The only thing pathetic is your absurd allegations.
Complain about this comment
What I want to know is the extent of Gordon Brown's involvement in all this. He's the prime Minister, after all, and well know for sucking up to the US line on almost everything (except trying to blame them for the recession) . Millipede is presumably just parroting the Cabinet / No 10 line.
BTW, Jeremy Clarkson is the idiot. I have no truck with GB but (as I have posted before) his incipient blindness is not something we should be gloating over.
Nonetheless Scottish Labour Leader Iain Gray couldn't be more wrong when he said said:
"Most people here are proud that the prime minister is a Scot and believe him to be the right person to get the UK through this global economic crisis."
Complain about this comment
# 296
"Welcome back to the middle ages."
Too right:
"She's a witch! she's a witch!" (M. Python).
Complain about this comment
@222 Isen horn
You mised the point as well.
What if it was you.
And dont say "I'm not a terrorist"
In this scenario you dont have to be.
The government can lock you up for 42 days without the need for any suspicion even
Complain about this comment
290 max sceptic
You are even more revolting than I first thought. OK moderaters remove it.
Complain about this comment
297. expatinnetherlands
Well said!
I think "national security" is being used as an excuse to cover up incompetence and reprehensible behaviour by our government far too much.
Other cases include:
- a gagging order on the press to prevent them publishing letters from whistleblower Nevres Kemal in the Baby P case from being published.
- a gagging order on the press after the Woodgreen Ricin "Plot" so that it could be used as a cause for war, and the press could not actually say there was never actually a ricin plot at all!
The one good thing about this case (i.e. the topic of blog in case anyone forgot ;-) is that these judges actually seem to value their independence and resent being censored for political ends.
Complain about this comment
Dear Nick,
It is now over 24 hours, probably later after the moderators have done their part, since GB said 'depression' yet not a word from you.
Cat got your tounge, no offfical word, not told what to print yet?
Come on Nick, is GB finally admiting the truth?
Xxxx
ps,
odd though that none of HMG's offical opposition even noticed this word being slipped out?
Either they don't listen that well or they ain't that quick on the uptake!
Complain about this comment
#290 MaxSceptic
"Jeremy Clarkson is in the news for calling Gordon Brown a
"one-eyed Scottish idiot".
Where can I sign the petition for Clarkson's Knighthood?"
Probably on the website:
"PETITIONS FOR IGNORANT RACIST GITS"?
Uh-hu?
Complain about this comment
#301 flamepatricia
"There are other quicker forums and blogs which are read and acted upon elsewhere and with a continuous supply of fresh contributors with up the minute and "now" ideas. A true reflection of the what the man on the street thinks."
Ooh, which ones? (You might get rid if me ;-)
Complain about this comment
301. flamepatricia
Good day, flamepatricia,
I'm glad you are not blaming Nick. The problem is that every word has to be checked, rechecked, and moderated. Heaven help us, somebody might use the dread "G" word, whereas the Holy Icon of the BBC, Jonathan Ross, can use sexism, ageism and cruelty to the mentally ill in one go! (He made obscene sexual invitations to a woman aged over 80, who suffers from Alzheimers). No doubt, if the poor soul was from an ethnic minority, he would be barred from polluting the air waves.
THIS ISN'T OFF TOPIC, AS IT IS IN RESPONSE TO ANOTHER BLOGGER. THANK YOU!
Complain about this comment
265 subedeithemomgol
#It looks like we'd be better off if Jeremy Clarkson was writing this blog. His reported description of the Golem seems to be, in modern parlance, spot on.
reading through these posts this morning it strikes me that Teresa May was totally wrong when she said "we used to be known as the nasty party" there is no used to be involved you still are the nasty party,it seems that you will support anything thats thoroughly offensive, even from a man whose sole purpose in life is to encourage people to drive bigger fuel guzzling cars, and that being the only qualification that this rather big mouthed gentleman has , shame on you Tories for your insensitivity.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
many people seem to be in ignorance of what is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan. How many Americans have died in Afghanistan over the last month. The information is there if you want to find out. What might also interest your readers is that more Americans have died as a result of their own suicides rather than killed by 'the enemy'.
We must not allow the government to reinforce our defeat. There must be an immediate mission statement from Gordon Brown on the situation in Afghanistan. Karzai is a busted flush. However, how, because we support democracy there is only one solution! Brown must tell the Afghan people how to organise a bloodless coup in the same way as he took power from Tony Blair, who saw President Obama yesterday. Poor old Gordon.
Complain about this comment
303. andfinally
How intelligent is US intelligence
Not sure! ...... thought it was an oxymoron ..... isnt it?
Complain about this comment
See.... the french get it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/4537061/French-president-Nicholas-Sarkozy-vows-not-to-repeat-Gordon-Browns-mistakes.html
Complain about this comment
Dear Nick,
It's been two days now and I'm still 'watching this space'.
The assembled throng seem to have thrashed the subject to within an inch of it's life (no comparison with the case in point intended) and the moderators also appear to have got bored and gone on strike.
Is their nothing else going on that's worthy of comment, or are you building up to a big blockbuster of a revelation re the torture allegations?
Or have you been 'rendered' for bringing the subject up and upsetting our US cousins and are now shackled to a radiator in downtown Casablanca?
If so, be assured that the British Govt does not practice or condone torture under any circumstances. Allegedly.
Complain about this comment
Maxsceptic and yellowbelly1959
Top Gear Jeremy Clarkson is really a comedy character he puts on for the show. he's completely different in his other stuff. Top Gear Clarkson is like a real life Alan Partridge.
Probably shouldn't take his flamebaiting too seriously. He probably just got jealous of Carol Thatcher stealing his act.
Complain about this comment
304 yellowbelly
Its strange or perhaps not so strange that if asked who would support Clarksons extremely offensive remarks, I could easily have picked out those rather unpleasant individuals.
I think that even among Tories there are some decent sensitive people. I guess most of the unpleasnt ones appear frequently on these blogs a pretty sad reflection on the conservative party, one which I dont think for one moment that David Cameron would support.
Complain about this comment
150 maggyisgod
Do you want to have a crack at 257
Interested to here.
Complain about this comment
grandantidote
I have difficulty distinguishing your quotes from your posts.
Maybe you could try this? only problem is to get the slash the right way round. If it is wrong it won't get through. just press back and change it.
<i>{quote here}</i>
Complain about this comment
305. At 11:49am on 06 Feb 2009, grandantidote wrote:
283 simon
I had a very poor education I'm afraid, but yours appears to have been worse than mine, the statement you show below certainly never came from me,
#Earlier you advocated torture, and then you said that if you bury someone's child alive they are likely to comply with your demands.
You couldn't be more wrong , If you are going to answer a post atleast read the post before you comment. You had two chances, I queried your post and you still got it wrong. I suppose a apology is out of the question.
===
Hear, hear, well said grandantidote!
Complain about this comment
I have to admit I am at odds with myself on this one. I hoped the people on here who are much smarter than me would answer it for me especially Mr. Murrell and Purpledog who I have learnt so much from. On the one hand I think that anything to do with torture is wrong and anything which interferes with our humanity is dreadful. On the other hand I understand people who say why should we care. This man has admitted apparently, to being a committed terrorist and I think what about his victims or potential victims. He obviously would have been prepared to torture, behead, or blow his innocent victims up. It also calls to mind Ireland where terrorists seem to have been rewarded for their actions. Do we really now call them freedom fighters and give their families cash rewards if they are dead and put them in office if they are not. I really do not know on this one perhaps someone will enlighten me.
The only thing I do think is that Britain must stop doing what the USA tells it to. After all if we had not gone to war we most probably would not have this situation.
Now the oil I do know something about. Because the oil price is so low, oil companies will be cutting back this coming year. You will see many service companies go under and contractors made redundant. Every oil company is making big cut backs, even the big ones. The days of big profits are over Im afraid, at least for now. So those who were calling for a windfall tax or who think it is the rich industry it was will be sadly disappointed.
Complain about this comment
panic over captn. Mannering!!.... apparently Sarkozy didn't really really mean to implore that our esteemed world saviour, the great Gordon Brown hasn't got a clue what he's doing *wink* *wink* know what I mean lol just like the Germans and the Dutch and a few others that are joining the bandwagon. So be rest assured folks, the world is still on message, albeit in private, that Gordon still continues to save the world... hear that Mr Obama! lol
Complain about this comment
#310 badgercourage
"Nonetheless Scottish Labour Leader Iain Gray couldn't be more wrong when he said said:
"Most people here are proud that the prime minister is a Scot and believe him to be the right person to get the UK through this global economic crisis.""
Correct. We are wholeheartedly ashamed, embarrassed, sickened, furious.....and sorry! Just to clarify, Gordon Brown is the worst kind of Scot.
(I can say that, I am one ;-)
Complain about this comment
305. grandantidote:
Sorry, but just what was the relevance of burying children in post #193 (which appears to be yours)?
"You know that do you? or are you again spouting off about something you now nothing about. you or I or any one else have any idea what sort of a president he will make, but we live in hope."
1) Already Obama has begun shutting down GBay, rather than just condemning torture in public and practising it in private. To me this demonstrates some kind of morals.
2) Obama has put forward a stimulus package for the US construction industry and stipulated that they "buy American". This demonstrates that he actually care about and will help the average US citizen, rather than just bailing out Wall Street while they buy private jets. (He did actually warn Citigroup about buying private jets: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7855554.stm)
Certainly a step in the right direction!?
P.S. You can always improve your education - look up "ad hominem" argument for example ;-)
Complain about this comment
316.
He is Scottish. Nothing racist here.
The only thig Clarkson got wrong?... Brown is not smooth.
Complain about this comment
319 - I am no tory, I voted for Frank Field at the last election and I will do so again, but I'm afraid Clarkson is correct... Gordon Brown is an idiot and a liar.
There are too many pieces of evidence to support this view for you or anyone else to dismiss it as being either 'nasty' or 'tory' or 'wrong'. Sorry.
Complain about this comment
#290 MaxSceptic
"Jeremy Clarkson is in the news for calling Gordon Brown a
"one-eyed Scottish idiot".
Where can I sign the petition for Clarkson's Knighthood?"
Well said!
Complain about this comment
Ouch!
I thought Our Glorious Leader told us that the whole world except the Conservatives agreed with his fiscal stimulus plan?
It seems someone forgot to tell the French President, Nicolas Sarkozy!
===
"Mr Sarkozy said: "Gordon Brown's decision to cut VAT has absolutely not worked.
"Cutting VAT by two points doesn't incite people to buy if they are scared about their future. If anything, consumption in Britain has gone down."
Mr Sarkozy went on to suggest that France's response would be different from the UK's, because the "English have no industry".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/4537061/French-president-Nicholas-Sarkozy-vows-not-to-repeat-Gordon-Browns-mistakes.html
Complain about this comment
309. At 12:15pm on 06 Feb 2009, grandantidote wrote:
293 robin jd
...The only thing pathetic is your absurd allegations.
===
grandantidote, charming and accomodating as ever!
Complain about this comment
313. At 12:21pm on 06 Feb 2009, grandantidote wrote:
290 max sceptic
You are even more revolting than I first thought. OK moderaters remove it.
===
Grandantidote, charming as ever!
You seem to think that everybody on here apart from you is a fool, we are all wrong, and you alone are always right.
What is the name for that?
Complain about this comment
325. At 1:16pm on 06 Feb 2009, grandantidote wrote:
304 yellowbelly
Its strange or perhaps not so strange that if asked who would support Clarksons extremely offensive remarks, I could easily have picked out those rather unpleasant individuals.
I think that even among Tories there are some decent sensitive people. I guess most of the unpleasnt ones appear frequently on these blogs a pretty sad reflection on the conservative party, one which I dont think for one moment that David Cameron would support.
===
Do you have any specific names of Tories on here you would like to share with us?
As for offensive remarks, I think you ought to check your postings today, you seem to be the very essence of intolerance, but then most bigots are.
Complain about this comment
#309
this is easy grandantidote and I'm surprised you fall so smugly inot the trap;
a retrial would be ordered in a civil court had a jury convicted a man on false evidence and the jury in this cae was the tory party who were presented with false evidence.
So let's have a retrial please with the two protaginists in the government Blair and Brown, standing on trial for lying to parliament.
i think you'll find we soon require a new government whether you like it or not.
Call an election.
Complain about this comment
329. Susan-Croft
Its quite simple really;
You either draw the line at zero torture
OR
You have to answer 257.
Complain about this comment
Dear Nick (Et all),
Re JC recent comments,
He is quite correct in the fact that
1- GB is 'Scottish'
&
2- He does have 'one (REAL/FAKE) eye'.
But he is incorrect with the 'idiot' part as he is anything but an idiot. No one who has single handily completely destroyed the UK economy can be called 'an idiot', flaming genius more like.....!!!!!
Xxxx
Complain about this comment
319 Grand
Blimey Grand! Do you need a hand with that rather broad brush you are carrying? You'll do yourself a mischief!
Complain about this comment
Gordon Brown strictly speaking is certainly one eyed and is definitely a Scot so no dissension there. Jeremy Clarkson was perhaps a little unwise to couple those observations with the word 'idiot' which is also true. It gives the wrong impression that people who are Scottish and have only one eye are idiots. It is little wonder that the Scots and disabled groups are up in arms because of the unfortunate juxtaposition of these words but not much mention anywhere that the term 'idiot' is not deserved.
Complain about this comment
332 simon
just read it again.
Complain about this comment
grandantidote
A suggestion for highlighting your quotes.
<i>{quote here}</i>
Complain about this comment
319 grandy
.......it seems that you will support anything thats thoroughly offensive............
................................
Whilst I concede that some people may find Mr Clarkson's remarks offensive, we need to apply some degree of scale to this.
If we're talking about really thoroughly offensive things, please see my list below. This may help put Jeremy's comments into perspective.
1. The Iraq War
2. The Afghanistan War
3. Abolishing the 10p Tax Rate
4. MP's non-disclosure of expenses
5. The treatment of Walter Wolfgang at the Labour Party Conference.
...and these are just five from a much larger possible selection - all supported, indeed orchestrated by Mr Brown and the Labour party.
It seems to me that a bit of name calling pales away into insignificance by comparison. Mr Clarkson is a successful journalist.....and Mr Brown is a successful................er - that's the problem really.
Complain about this comment
334. At 2:05pm on 06 Feb 2009, kingloneranger wrote:
319 - I am no tory, I voted for Frank Field at the last election and I will do so again, but I'm afraid Clarkson is correct... Gordon Brown is an idiot and a liar.
===
That makes you a Tory in Grandantidote's book, he thinks Frank Field is a Tory!
Complain about this comment
#335 Friendlycard
How's this? Say Kirsty Wark (first well known Scot I could think of) for the sake this hypothetical question, said in an interview,
"David Cameron is a no-brained English idiot!".
How do you feel the fall out would be?
(I'm testing the waters, that'a all.)
Complain about this comment
eccallentcatblogger #288: "The concern is that they (private contractors) are not subject to the US Military Justice code nor to Iraqi civilian law; and certainly no Congressional or Parliamentary oversight. As they were hired by an Internal US Department (eg National Parks, Education etc) and not a US Defence departments they are not subject to US law."
Actually, if my government's workings did in fact operate in this way, then they most certainly would be subject to US law!! Why wouldn't they? So let me get this streight. You actually think that the Department of Education has absolutely no laws to abide by or adhere to? I can assure you if it didn't, then that department would make the corruption in the Zimbobwean government look like a walk in the park!! Our internal departments do so have laws of which their employees must abide by!! So if a military contractor were under their juristiction, they would be required to follow such a department's laws. That being said, I think the reason why military outsorcing has gotten so out of controll is because it has been allowed by our military under Bush/Chaney and/or through our private oil contracting companies such as Halliberton!! Now as you know our military certainly does have humane laws which its empoloyees must adhere to, but as you also all too well know, Bush wasn't exactly too conserned with living up to his "proclaimed" beliefs and ideals, and so if he didn't encourage private armey factions to fight, gather intellijence etc, then at the very least he just idly stood by and let it happen, which is the exact same as activly promoting its use!! Please don't think we're some lawless dictatorship anymore!!!!
"It is a can of worms, and it truly stinks. I think that when Obama realises the extent to which US governemnt domestic spending has been diverted to private contractors he will be devastated. New Orleans after Katrina has not been rebuilt yet has it?"
I think he is already aware, and I think he is. He has already signed exeuctive orders demanding and ensuring that no one in our military or the CIA torture, and unlike Bush, has specificly layed out in detail what everyone streight down to the foot soldiers can and cannot do with detainees. So my guess is that if he is this strict on the laws of the military that everyone already knows about, then he probably won't have too much of a stomach for private contractors getting away with torture and God knows what else either!!
AS regards New Orleans, everyone knows that the handling of that after Katrina was, aside from Guantonamo Bay, the largest blite on the Bush administration!! But it is not because of "private contractors" that it wasn't rebuilt in a timely and efficiant mannor, it was mostly due to the fact that federal, state, and local governments did not comunicate well at all with one another, and so many things were left undone or just simply not comunicated. You see unlike the UK, the government here cannot simply just say "jump" and the rest of the country ask "how high?" So when a disaster strikes, much more preparation and coordination after the fact is required in order to deal with it affectivly.
I suggest you Google the workings of the US government if you wish to learn more.
Complain about this comment
Thank you M.Sarkozy for speaking out against Gordon's deluded economic policies. Shame the British people aren't allowed a say until 2010.
European leaders are not following his economic policies, the UK is uniquely badly placed to survive the recession (or is that a depression now Mr Brown?), and Gordon is not an economic genius.
Latest (January 2009) EU projections, all percentages (source EU website):
2009 GDP: UK minus 2.8, France minus 1.8, Germany minus 2.3
2009 Budget Deficit: UK minus 8.8, France minus 5.4, Germany minus 2.9
The tragedy is that not only are we suffering most at the moment, but also that we will be worst placed to resume economic growth once the recession is over. Other countries will be investing in productive enterprise; all our efforts will be directed to paying off Gordon's debts. Back to the 1970s (for those that remember). Our economy is the sick man of Europe again.
Complain about this comment
#317
Thirty of the more respected bloggers here been working our little bums off to give you something workable. In a week or so we'll have something better than this country of the blind. Live Journals are rather interesting tools, but this doesn't qualify as such.
Complain about this comment
Just to get back to the subject...if any British Government,regardless of Political party,was complicit in torture,they should resign immediately.Unfortunately this will not happen, and so we need to have the option of impeachment if our elected leaders are found to be condoning,and involved in,criminal activities.
As to Jeremy Clarkson....I don't agree with resorting to insults based on personal disabilities....but apart from the 'one eyed Scot' bit,he was dead right.
Stupid thing is that everyone is now talking about it because indignant politians have been wingeing,and it's hit the media! Apart from these angry MP's,I don't see many people weeping for Gordon over this.
Laugh...I could have had an accident!
Complain about this comment
Apparently JC has apologised for passing comment in the heat of the moment upon the Prime Ministers appearance.
It doesn't say whether he apologised for the Scottish Idiot bit though.....
Surprised Nick hasn't managed to post anything about Sarkozy not holding the party line. Oh, I forgot...he's not in the Labour party is he.
I'll be back in 4 or 5 days to see what's going on in response to this apparently weekly blog...
Can anyone get a job as a political journalist?
Complain about this comment
312 pot black
#The government can lock you up for 42 days without the need for any suspicion even
What is the point in writing absolute nonsense you know or you should as it has been debated on here many times.
If you are arrested on suspicion of being a terrorist and only for terrorism, you are taken before a judge, who then decides on the evidence brought, whether or not to imprison you for seven days.
After seven days you have once again to be taken before a judge whose decision once again based on the evidence can have you committed, or not, to jail for another seven days.
This can if the judge is convinced by the prosecution continue this way for forty two days, on the other hand the judge can have the prisoner released at any time if he feels that there is not sufficient evidence.
If at the end of the forty two days the suspect has not been charged he has to be released and with compensation.
Complain about this comment
#342
So Gordon brown has ' single handedly completely destroyed the UK economy'? He must have a real destructive power, since the economies of USA, Japan, Germany, France, China, Russia and the whole world are also completely ruined. I am glad you are here to point out who is responsible for that!
Complain about this comment
Nick,
Only two blogs for us to feast on all week.
You seem to have the same work ethic as the Speaker of the House of Commons!
"MPs of all parties are becoming more exasperated with The Speaker by the day. The latest issue appears to be his working hours. Yesterday he left the Chamber at 12.30pm, which is par for the course for him on Thursdays because he likes to scoot off home to Glasgow. Normally it does not much matter because, thanks to the government, Thursday afternoons have become pretty empty. But yesterday it did matter because at 1.14pm, MPs started making some very serious Points of Order about the Speaker's handling of the Damian Green affair. It was left to the hapless Sylvia Heal, one of Speaker Martin's deputies, to field the questions. She said she would have a word with the Speaker about it on Monday.
What can the electorate make of a Speaker who b*****s off home before lunch on a Thursday and doesn't return until mid morning on Monday?"
http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2009/02/speakers-three-day-week.html
Complain about this comment
Move along, move along folks nothing to see here.
That nice Mr Clarkson has said hes sorry.
Bet he isnt ..... reeaaalllly.
Complain about this comment
#312
You say that I do not need to be a terrorist to be detained or tortured by the police?
I do think I will lose my sleep worrying about that!
Complain about this comment
CarrotsneedaQUANGO 2 341
Good afternoon
But carrots its not that simple, we are asked to care what has happened to this man. Now he has admitted he is a committed terrorist. That means he will kill innocent people if he can.
My dilemma is this, if you have someone who you know has knowledge of something that will effect innocent lives. How far would you actually go to find that out.
I am not sure what I would do, honestly, are you? That was really the question I posed. There is a world of difference between what you think you would do, and what you actually do.
Complain about this comment
340 robin jd
#a retrial would be ordered in a civil court had a jury convicted a man on false evidence and the jury in this cae was the tory party who were presented with false evidence.
It wasn't the Tories who were the jury it was the whole house, why do you keep refering to the Tories as the innocents.
Using your scenario. the prosercuter would only be acting on the evidence produced by the police,[ in this case MI5], if the case was proved to be wrong at a later date then the police[MI5] should be censured , not the prosecuter, he was only acting on the evidence he was given. Rather proves my point rather than yours I think.
For goodness sake take the blinkers off man every one was fooled including Tony Blair how many times do we have to go through that before people like you get the message but of course you dont want to get the message.
All I can say for your Tory reps who voted they must have been a pretty thick bunch if they couldn't find out for themselves what was happening . The Tories were far more gung ho! about going to war than the labour benches.
According to you the Tories must have been a pretty gullible bunch if TB could have fooled them that easily. most of the Tories that voted in favour of this war including your beloved leader and your new hero Ken still say that they were in favour,
kinda leaves you out on a limb doesn't it.
Complain about this comment
The BBC lack of action over Clarkson remarks shows without question that Carol and the doll reference was dealt with harshly because of her surname.
Apparently any remarks are acceptable followed by a groveling apology.
The other issue appears to be what is the fee is of the BBC employee before deciding on the sanction.
Even I am fed up of the phrase "political correct" to explain this nonsense.
Complain about this comment
aw @ 349 wrote:
How's this? Say Kirsty Wark (first well known Scot I could think of) for the sake this hypothetical question, said in an interview,
"David Cameron is a no-brained English idiot!".
The difference being that this is quite untrue whereas GB has indeed only one eye, is a Scot and his judgement to my mind anyway is horribly flawed.
Complain about this comment
343 harry paget flashman
thanks for your concern but even at 78 I am still able to hold my own, but it isn't to difficult with some of these characters on here.
DH Wilkinson
while I appreciate you trying to help I am afraid you can't teach a old dog new tricks. I know I get sniped at on occasion, if I wanted to take the trouble which I don't there are times when I could pick up practically all those that have criticised me. It doesn't worry me old chap they know what I'm saying if they don't then they must live very sheltered lives.
Complain about this comment
348 yellow belly
That makes you a Tory in Grandantidote's book, he thinks Frank Field is a Tory!
What a sad disillusioned life you must lead if you think thats a post.
Complain about this comment
The only thing that seems to upset anyone about Clarksons acurate and factual description of our prime mentalist seems to be the 'scottish' bit.
I know it must be embarassing for our northern cousins, but none can deny that he is one of them - however much they wish it was otherwise.
Complain about this comment
CarrotsneedaQUANGO2 @278 wrote:
Ive never really understood the point of capital punishment.
On the down side:
1. It certainly isnt a deterrent
Reply: True. Iy is retribution and justice.
2. The state does make mistakes and innocent people are killed.
True: the legal process needs to be scrupulous and the verdict can only apply when there is no shred of doubt as to guilt.
3. The whole process is rather messy and very expensive.
Not true. Lawyers have made it expensive and messy. The actual execution can be swift and inexpensive. How much does a bullet cost?
4. I think locking someone away for the rest of their lives is actually worse.
Now that is expensive - and I resent paying taxes to keep them alive in conditions that many poor pensioners would envy.
Furthermore, life rarely means life, anymore.
Complain about this comment
Just been watching a BBC interview with a nondescript Labour MP bouncing up and down in a frenzy because Clarkson questioned Gordon's integrity. Well, in my opinion Gordon (no more boom and bust) Brown lost any integrity he may have had years ago, and I'm sure millions of British people agree.
As for the idiot label, that's not how I would express it. I'd prefer to say his economic policies are idiotic (criticise the message not the messenger). And indeed they are (but that's the subject of another day).
Complain about this comment
Having just seen Lord Faulkes (?) ranting on the BBC about Claksons comments,I feel sick.
Why do these people have to make a huge issue out of a relatively small incident?According to him it was racist...defamatory to disabled people..brought Browns integrity into question..Clarkson should be sacked..etc etc.
The Beeb anchor lady..don't know her name was very good..and even appeared to think that he was being a bit hysterical.
I agree..they should put up and shut up.
Or should Englishmen demand that any Scot that calls them Sassenachs,be hanged,drawn and quartered!
Utterly pathetic.
Complain about this comment
Grandantidote,
You must be so proud of young Brown.
First he abolished boom and bust.
Then he saved the world.
He assured us that Britain was best placed to ride the 'downturn', yet now he's telling us we in a depression (as if we didn't know he'd take us there).
So, which of the following statements is incorrect:
1) Brown is Scottish.
2) Brown is blind in one eye.
3) Brown is an idiot.
Yes - of course, it was a trick question - they are all correct.
Tune in for next week's quiz: 'Why does that awful nail-biting, psychologically-flawed man keep lying to us?'
Complain about this comment
I am informed that the British PM has a Ph.D.
As far as I am aware it is the highest qualification that can be awarded by an institute of higher education. Regular viewers of these discussions will know who the real idiots are.
Complain about this comment
Nick, so much has been happening on the political scene over the past couple of weeks and you've produced a paucity of comments on it all.
To be honest I think Jeremy Clarksons latest comments sum things up quite succinctly.
The number of people in the general public that trust Gordon Brown is in the minority, we all know that the things we hear from Government are not accurate, even though we are careful not to use the L-word, because this government are so careful with their words.
Its certainly what we're all thinking.
As Tony Blair would say: For the love of God, call an election!
Complain about this comment
#349 Aye-Wright
I suspect that the majority of English wouldn't bat an eye lid over anyone daring to be referred to as an English Idiot - we have thicker skins than that and don't jump up and down demanding drastic retribution for a little name-calling - unless it's the BBC.
That said, Clarkson's reference to GB being one-eyed was completely unnecessary and a sign of a 'celeb' believing his own publicity.
Complain about this comment
347 shelling out
I really don't want to reply to this because its old old ground, but here goes.
Iraq war been discussed dozens of time Tory MPs not interested or Cameron only Tory posters on here.
Afghanistan war Tories fully in favour, Except Tory posters on here.
!0p tax big mistake apologised and made up the cash in other ways.Continuously brought up by Tories on these blogs.
MPs non disclosure of expences totally out of order but large sighs of relief on all sides of the house.
Walter Wolfgang god how many more times must that old miscreant be dragged up by a Tory he was in a very large hall atended by thousands of labour supporters who had come to listen to , I believe Jack Straw this chap sat well at the back was shouting as loud as he could ,I think it was liar, he was asked to be quiet, as people had not come to listen to him. he contiued to shout out and he was once again asked to be quiet, he didn't comply he was told that if he wasn't quiet he would have to leave he became billigerent and the security men removed him although he struggled.
First and foremost it was the buildings security that removed him not that that matters a damn, the man was making a absolute nuisance of himself and despite his age deserved to be removed.
A little observation I made a couple of years ago and I made a note of it, it goes as follows.
With regard to old people who have behaved badly.
Or still are,
Then there shame is still with them,
Being old doesn't grant you an amnesty,
and shouldn't,
I am quite old but I don't expect anyone to forgive me for anything that I have done wrong,
I may ask for forgiveness,
But old age doesn't entitle me to it.
wolfgang was well out of order and had to be removed if it had been a younger man he wouldn't have lasted that long whether at a Tory conference or a labour or liberal conference. please dont be silly and come back with a stupid remark like theTories wouldn't have done it will you.
Your opinion of Clarksons journalistic qualities are in the circumstances no more than I would have expected.
Complain about this comment
338yellowbelly
You seem to think that everybody on here apart from you is a fool, we are all wrong, and you alone are always right.
What is the name for that?
Er Um! yellowbelly
Complain about this comment
aye_write wrote:
#335 Friendlycard
How's this? Say Kirsty Wark (first well known Scot I could think of) for the sake this hypothetical question, said in an interview,
"David Cameron is a no-brained English idiot!".
How do you feel the fall out would be?
(I'm testing the waters, that'a all.)
Well the big difference is that such a comment would be obviously wrong - Cameron has to have a brain to handle even basic motor functions!
However, people who are complaining about the "Scottish" part of the comment are doing themselves a disservice - calling someone a Scottish Idiot doesn't mean that all Scots are idiots. Clarkson could just have easily called Brown a Fat idiot - would we have fat people reacting angrily?
The truth is that like it or not Brown IS Scottish. The Idiot part depends on the way you clarify an idiot - if it is someone who makes idiotic comments then Brown would certainly qualify (and so would Cameron and Clegg!).
Complain about this comment
Can I take this opportunity to apologise to Gordon Brown, the BBC, posters on this board, friends of Gordon Brown (if there are any), and the whole population of the world for the nasty things I have throught, said in private, public and on this board about the Prime Minister.
I acknowledge that what I think and say about our great and glorious leader are far worse than those spouted forth by Jeremy Clarkson and I feel terribly ad about them.
However, I must point out thet the term Prime Minister (conformed on the Government website) was originally coined as a term of abuse.
I therefore feel justified in calling Gordon Brown the Prime Minister.
Complain about this comment
Hey BBC!
What's the point of having a blog that takes over 2 hours to moderate posts???
Complain about this comment
349 aye
Earlier on News 24 we has a "two-eyed Scottish fool" commenting on JC's comment.
He said that Brown's disability was slur on the disabled, suggested calling him Scottish was racist and the term idiot did not apply since he is very intelligent.
Just as well he diddnot mention the Robertson's "G" word or there would have been real trouble.
Complain about this comment
339 yellowbelly
#Do you have any specific names of Tories on here you would like to share with us?
You don't need me to tell you who you are , to some of you it's become an art form.
#As for offensive remarks, I think you ought to check your postings today, you seem to be the very essence of intolerance, but then most bigots are.
My postings today and most days may be offensive to some but only in retaliation I dont suffer fools gladly. Although they may cause offense, they are never abusive.
Complain about this comment
337 yellow belly
you are really becoming a bore,
I believe in calling a spade a spade.
Complain about this comment
357. yellowbelly1959
Its clearly a new tactic to reduce the number of comments.
There were 26 comments waiting for over an hour, a mod logs on and clears 3 through then nothing.
I guess they figure the more they clear, the more responses and then the work load goes up a notch.
Why bother it only a public service, its not like theres a paying customer.
Complain about this comment
#355 grandantidote said:
"What is the point in writing absolute nonsense you know or you should as it has been debated on here many times."
===
You really ought to take a chill pill you know. This is a public blog and every one is entitled to their own opinion.
Your contributions are becoming ever more vitriolic and personal in their nature.
Has somebody or something upset you recently?
Complain about this comment
Isenhorn @ 356 wrote in response to 342:
So Gordon brown has ' single handedly completely destroyed the UK economy'? He must have a real destructive power, since the economies of USA, Japan, Germany, France, China, Russia and the whole world are also completely ruined. I am glad you are here to point out who is responsible for that!
You are right to take issue with this blogger. It should of course read:
'Gordon Brown has in tandem with others in The Government helped to render The UK economy is such a parlous state that it is worst placed than the economies of USA, Japan, Germany, France, China, Russia and the whole world to deal with the present crisis.' Is that better?.
Complain about this comment
Jeremy Clarkson has now apparently aplogised for his indiscretion. Perhaps we should let the matter lie and concentrate on the real issues of concern at the moment!
Complain about this comment
CarrotsneedaQUANGO2 @358,
Clarkson only apologied for commenting on Brown's 'personal appearance'.
The remainder of the description is fact. One can't - and shouldn't - apologies for stating facts.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Just seen Clarkson's apology. 'I apologise for making remarks about The Prime Minister's appearance.' No mention of the idiot reference. Interesting.
Complain about this comment
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7874648.stm
Yet another 'do nothing' dig?
Complain about this comment
255 Aye-Write
Reference your post regarding oil.
Oil companies have to make a profit and with the oil price at circa $45, oil companies are looking at ways of cutting costs;-
Conocophillips have announced they are to reduce the workforce. I also read that they reported a Q4 net loss of $31.8 billion.
Talisman have made redundancies and there are more to come.
Oilexco has gone into receivership.
Halliburton I believe have announced redundancies.
Oceaneering have made redundancies.
Etc….
The oil Majors are cutting back on their drilling programmes and this will again affect drilling companies and the service companies.
I have also heard (but not substantiated) that one of the majors has insisted that their “dayraters” take a 15% pay cut.
Times are a changing in the oil industry so be wary………..pride before a fall!
Complain about this comment
#318
Jonathan Ross has commited the worst politically incorrect crimes, by requesting intimate relations with a woman aged over eighty, who suffers from Alzeimer's. This is being raised again, since I see so many posts condemning the Tories for the things Clarkson said about the Great Leader. Quite a few Nu Labour supporters are accusing the Tories of being the 'nasty party' because of the rubbish this media man has spouted. I would be interested to know if the revolting Ross is a Tory? Somehow I don't think so, because the BBC seems to lionise only those of a particular political bent: e.g. the late Harold Pinter, Kisty Wark, Jonathan Miller, et al. I'd take a bet Jonathan Ross is NOT a tory. Any bets?
Complain about this comment
Crikey - what's going on with the moderation on this site? How long does it take to review a comment?
Is it the wrong kind of snow?
Has Moderation been outsourced to Bombay? (That would explain a lot....)
Complain about this comment
360 Susan Croft
My dilemma is this, if you have someone who you know has knowledge of something that will effect innocent lives. How far would you actually go to find that out.
............................................................
Isn't that called an Accessory before the Fact?
Complain about this comment
It's 6:57pm and grandy's post at 361 still hasn't been moderated. Have The Mods gone off to tea early?
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
363 sicilian29
"aw @ 349 wrote:
How's this? Say Kirsty Wark (first well known Scot I could think of) for the sake this hypothetical question, said in an interview,
"David Cameron is a no-brained English idiot!".
The difference being that this is quite untrue whereas GB has indeed only one eye, is a Scot and his judgement to my mind anyway is horribly flawed."
-----
Nope! Good try, but...
(btw that's always the excuse for racism, "It can't be racist, it's true!" see flame, sigh.)
The sentiments "idiot" and "no brained" are both negative in intention. The entire content of both statements is clearly meant to have a negative effect on relation to the subjects (Brown and Cameron).
Therefore the use of the terms "Scottish" and "English" are included to further that negative tone. In that they are taken to be negative terms. That's racist.
Complain about this comment
361 grandy
All I can say for your Tory reps who voted they must have been a pretty thick bunch if they couldn't find out for themselves what was happening . The Tories were far more gung ho! about going to war than the labour benches.
.....................................................................
They couldn't find out for themselves because the government kept everything under wraps.
The reason the Conservatives voted to go to war is because this Government told them Saddam had WMD's, which we all now know to be untrue. The whole thing was based on a blatant lie - and Tony Bliar, as PM must have known about it. Think about what happened to David Kelly, who was a decent and honest man. I don't know how they can sleep at night.
Instead of cribbing about how hard-done-by you were under the Conservatives all the time, and being rude to other posters on here, take a good hard look at the facts - they really do speak for themselves.
Complain about this comment
365. At 4:21pm on 06 Feb 2009, grandantidote wrote:
348 yellow belly
That makes you a Tory in Grandantidote's book, he thinks Frank Field is a Tory!
What a sad disillusioned life you must lead if you think thats a post.
===
You do know you are now showing yourself in your true light, don't you?
Did you not say that Frank Field should cross the floor of the House of Commons?
Complain about this comment
#366 the-real-truth
"The only thing that seems to upset anyone about Clarksons acurate and factual description of our prime mentalist seems to be the 'scottish' bit.
I know it must be embarassing for our northern cousins, but none can deny that he is one of them - however much they wish it was otherwise."
True and TRUE!
Complain about this comment
No 355, surely you remember that the House of Lords chucked out the "one-eyed Scottish golem's" plans for 42 days detention without charge?
So, thankfully, that little ploy to destroy civil liberties in this country was foiled.
Complain about this comment
#369. dontneedthegrief
"Or should Englishmen demand that any Scot that calls them Sassenachs,be hanged,drawn and quartered!
Utterly pathetic."
----
We'd tend to have more bl**dy sense!
Especially as that term hasn't been used in however many years.....
To help you, substitute 'English' for 'black', 'female', 'gay', or any other descriptive term used negatively. You can't do it without sounding bad i.e. ignorant. Do you wish to?
PS Foulkes IMO is a low life possibly even beneath Brown, if you judge it by how much Scots can't stand him. Up here he is a laughing stock. Don't let him annoy you. It'd be like a slug annoying an eagle.
Complain about this comment
#370 MaxSceptic
So, which of the following statements is incorrect:
1) Brown is Scottish.
2) Brown is blind in one eye.
3) Brown is an idiot.
Yes - of course, it was a trick question - they are all correct."
-----
Well, you were tricked, I won't say by what.
I fear you may be my most difficult pupil ;-)
Nos. 1 and 2 are accurate.
No. 3 is accurate and an intended insult.
The whole tone of the statement is obviously an intented insult.
Therefore the term "Scottish" is being used in a negative way as an abusive slight.
Do you follow?
;-)
Complain about this comment
At the moment of writing this message, the delay caused by "moderation" is exactly three hours and there are 32 messages in the queue. Therefore, there is little point in joining the debate, however interesting it is.
Message to moderators. I am watching your little game, and getting rather tired of it. It is quite clear that a part of the process between posting a message and it actually appearing is an intentional timed delay. It is also quite clear that in the majority of circumstances, the human element of the moderation process is entirely absent unitil a post appears and then is referred by a reader.
Why this is, is a matter of conjecture. So here is my conjecture - actually it's an acusation. I think you slow down the appearance of messages when the balance of "conversation" among the posters becomes uncomfortable in the context of BBC editorial policy. An example would be when punches against the government line start to be landed.
Message to Nick. The moderation process is doing you a grave disservice. I would suggest you "have words" with the appropriate person.
Complain about this comment
371. At 5:06pm on 06 Feb 2009, braveSouter wrote:
I am informed that the British PM has a Ph.D.
As far as I am aware it is the highest qualification that can be awarded by an institute of higher education. Regular viewers of these discussions will know who the real idiots are.
===
An idiot would be someone who announced to the world in advance that he was selling off 60% his country's gold reserves, hence getting a 20 year low price for them.
His Ph.D is in History, not much use to an economist.
Complain about this comment
371 braveSouter
Notwithstanding my remarks in post 403, responding to yours is iresistable.
I also have a PhD, in fact (not that it matters all that much) in a traditionally "hard" subject (physics), as opposed to Brown's (modern history).
I have spent my entire working life working alongside other people who also have PhDs. I just wanted to assure you that possession of a PhD is absolutely no assurance against idiocy. It is merely a qualification in being able to spout a couple of hundred pages on a subject of utter irrelevance (and incomprehension) to the vast majority of the population, followed by an ability to convince a couple of other like-qualified individuals that you are the unique author of said work.
PhDs are no better able than anyone else in the majority of important tasks, like tieing their shoelaces, cooking dinner, driving a car, keeping an appointment or understanding TV drama.
I would suggest you judge Brown by what he says and what he does, rather than the nice bits of paper he is allowed to wave at you from time to time.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
375. At 5:24pm on 06 Feb 2009, grandantidote wrote:
338yellowbelly
You seem to think that everybody on here apart from you is a fool, we are all wrong, and you alone are always right.
What is the name for that?
Er Um! yellowbelly
===
Thanks very much!!
Complain about this comment
#376 Mark_WE
"However, people who are complaining about the "Scottish" part of the comment are doing themselves a disservice - calling someone a Scottish Idiot doesn't mean that all Scots are idiots. Clarkson could just have easily called Brown a Fat idiot - would we have fat people reacting angrily?
The truth is that like it or not Brown IS Scottish. The Idiot part depends on the way you clarify an idiot - if it is someone who makes idiotic comments then Brown would certainly qualify (and so would Cameron and Clegg!)."
-----
This is interesting with you lot!
There is a distinction between what you say to someone who knows you, and to a public audience, even if it's just out with new friends, who obviously don't.
I think you miss the point. The phrase was meant as a negative, so the term "Scottish" as used in it, was derogatory. Therefore it labelled "Scottish" as insulting. Yes, it did not convey that every Scot is an idiot but did portray them like that in general terms.
Further, I think you have hindered your own argument, as yes there would have been a backlash if Jeremy has also said 'fat'. There is no nice way of saying someone is fat and avoiding sounding as if you are criticising.
Should fat people accept criticism as a rule? Only if they want to. Such words said in the public domain deny them the right to express whether or not they see them as acceptable. It is to be told something and not to reply. That is a lack of respect. You must assume repsect unless you have reason to assume otherwise.
That's good manners.
Complain about this comment
#379 mikepko
"Earlier on News 24 we has a "two-eyed Scottish fool" commenting on JC's comment."
He cropped up again! Uergh, there are no rules stupid enough to excuse Foulkes - did he make things worse? Please, he is a laughing stock in Scotland. Just what we (DON'T) need - please pretend he doesn't exist!
It's what we try :-)
Complain about this comment
To be accurate "Gordon Brown is a British idiot" - though insults become pointless unless the adjectives are germane to the point (if any) being made. Otherwise they become simply verbose pomposity (perhaps why so many of you are sympathetic to Clarkson.)
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#390 andywork
Change at my husband's company has been instead of recruiting as fast as possible to keep up with the demands of won contracts, to recruit more slowly and consolidate the growth already achieved. Good, he's been a bit busy ;-)
So in essence go from a company so busy it was too busy to meet recruitment needs, to a more normal company growing and now able to take stock.
It's not as bad as you effectively paint I'd assert. Remember oil companies are always recruiting a-frenzy when it's good and conversely cutting back a lot when it's less so. They've done it many times before, it's their pattern.
Some criticise them for not taking steps to not because the effect has tended to be, when business picks up, they have lost staff they had they now really need again, so they are slated in that respect. But it's the way they do things...
PS I don't suffer from excess pride ;-)
Complain about this comment
Hazel Blears on BBC Newsnight. Bitter towards a filmed working class Conservative voter and accuses a Union Leader and a Centre For Policy Studies Representative of talking nonsense. Confirms my view of her which if printed would bring the wrath of The Mods around my ears.
Complain about this comment
aye_write @ 401....
My comment about Sassenachs was tongue in cheek in case you didn't notice.
The point was that Foulkes was hysterical about the whole affair,and bringing racism into it was 'utterly pathetic'
PS..I'm glad you guys also think he's low life!
;-P
Complain about this comment
What is the problem with Gordon?
He deserves respect for overcoming his disability, and his nationality is completely irrelevant to the conduct of his duties. Quite obviously he's not an idiot either (though, as I said earlier, his economic policies may be idiotic).
At a personal level he is gauche and lacking personal charm. He knows this, and presents himself as a serious intellectual politician in contrast to both Tony Blair and David Cameron, who are, as he sees it, shallow salesmen.
Lacking social skills, Gordon has to maintain his intellectual persona lest his fragile ego collapse. So Gordon is unable to admit policy mistakes and recognise the value of different opinions to his own.
At the political level the problem with Gordon is that leadership does not require intellectual mastery (not that Gordon actually has that) but rather, firstly the ability to communicate a vision, and secondly the ability to delegate the task of implementation to capable men and women.
Gordon's fragile ego disqualifies him from national leadership in these difficult times. It is dangerous for us to have a leader that is psychologically unable to confess even to himself his own mistakes.
Complain about this comment
#257 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
Ref your comment about rules on torture.
Im not talking torturing criminals. Do you think the lads in Guantanamo are just unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. No these people were out there to kill our soldiers. Just because they say they aint terrorists we have to take that as fact and say ok on your way son.
Take that Binyam Mohamed he said he was in Afgan to kick a drug habit. Strange as its one of the main supplier of Heroin to the world. Obviously with all these drug plantations they must have one hell of a drug rehab programme going on.
These people are terrorist extremists. In extreme circumstances extreme measures have to be taken to protect inocent peoples safety to live as they wish.
No i dont think there should be a time scale and pain factor because they people dont deserve the rights of normal human beings. They dont care if they walk into a packed market place with a bomb strapped to themselves and detonate killing and maiming hundreds, so why should we afford them rules.
Im an ex soldier and know they Geneva Convention rules relating to torture of enemy combatants. These people are no combatants they are fanatical murderers. They disregard every rule of war and then expect to be treated fairly but when they are not they cry and say i only said it because they hurt me. Tough.
#258 Laughatthetories
I have no trust issues with other cultures or religions as i said i work with Iraqis who fought against the allies in both Gulf wars and i would trust them with my life and have on many occassions.
Ref being a racist. Hows that just because i have a view that you dont agree with. I hate terrorist and have on numerous occassions had run ins with them when they are trying to cause death or harm to myself and friends. You dont know me take you head out of the clouds and dont speak crap.
Complain about this comment
I tend to agree that I may have been rather harsh to poke fun at The PM because of the Jeremy Clarkson slur. On reflection (JC speak) I concede that he is not in fact an idiot. When you admonish a child for bad behaviour you have to be very careful to allude to the behaviour rather than the individual. In Gordon Brown's case I just feel that he is totally unsuited to his present role. His personality prevents him from seeing the bigger picture and making informed policy choices. He is unable to admit mistakes because that would puncture his frail ego and tends to rely on media soundbites and ill thought out quickly constructed initiatives to improve his standing with The General Public. It took a while but most people can now see through this weakness.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
360. Susan-Croft
Susan.. Good morning.
I think I mage it fairly clear what I would do in 216. I wouldn’t need a set of rules because everything that I did would automatically be acceptable to me. But perhaps not you.
Its a case of what do YOU want the state to carry out in YOUR name and what rules do we set them to operate within. (assuming of course we dont want to arrive at the position where suspected tax cheats are tortured until they are proved innocent)
We will have to elect various individuals to carry out approved torture techniques on our behalf so we will have to put in place a number of safeguards, for example:
We need to make sure they are properly equipped, we don’t want our squaddies all over the world putting together Heath Robinson torture devices, some will ultimately fail and kill suspects which may lead to the loss of information.
This also brings into question the matter of training these operatives. Our army would need to set up a training centre and proper torture centres that can be inspected and regulated.
But firstly we need to identify which crimes allow the state to take a suspect and torture. OK, many agree on terrorism, but even that needs clarification, does that include cyber terrorism and hacking into security service computer networks in the search of evidence of ET life forms or just bombers? Is being a member of a group enough or do you have to actually be suspected of an act? Do we torture 18 year old boys who support terror groups from their bedrooms and research bomb making techniques? Do we torture minors who are suspected of being groomed to carry devices.
Then we need to define suspicion, is being a good friend of a convicted terrorist enough, is being a good friend of a suspected terrorist enough, what about family members? We don’t want some squaddie shouting fine, round all the family lets have em all in for questioning do we?
Or do we? The threat of someone torturing my 7 year old daughter would probably lead me to tell you everything. The actual act certainly would. Perhaps that’s a goods method. Its only one little girl after all and if that saved a tower load of people many would say fine.
Then we need to approve the actual techniques and levels of torture, perhaps the severity of the crime, the age and sex of the suspect should have some baring on the pain levels. I guess we need special rules for women, should they be tortured by women? or is perhaps sexual humiliation all part of the process that will lead us to saving an element of our society.
Some mention paedophiles, child abduction etc etc. Should Robert Murat have been tortured in the search for Madeleine McCann. One poster on here indicates the positive.
You know, the more I think about those super rich tax cheats that hide all their dosh in Liechtenstein, I realise that they cause serious damage to our society Dosh means life and not paying your taxes by de facto leads to loss of life.
You see how this unfolds, and I haven’t really even started. Its like jumping off a cliff into a world where you really don’t want to go.
Much easier not to jump.
Complain about this comment
410. oldnat
I once read a very interesting paper that sought to define idiocy in business.
It concluded that every decision falls into varying degrees of 1 of 4 outcomes.
1 We both gain
2 I gain you loose
3 You gain I loose
4 We both loose..... IDOCY
So where are we with Brown. We the people are clearly loosing by having him as PM.
The question is... Is he gaining?
Complain about this comment
Once again Europeans have shown disregard, disinterest, disdain for America's security concerns. Britain should remind itself that nations don't have friends, they have interests. That alliances and cooperation only result when those interests coincide. When they don't, when they clash, then those nations become adversaries. Continental Europe has made it plain to America in the recent past that it too is not interested in what concerns America, its security, its rights to trade on a level playing field, its economy. It blew up what was left of its bridges to America and it will be largely responsible for rebuilding them. Britain must also decide. It has deluded itself that it has a special relationship with America, a bond of common history and values which cannot be broken. This is patently untrue. What's more, betrayal is not a crime that is taken lightly or forgotten quickly. There is no surer way to break the bonds of trust between nations or people than to betray them. If that is what Britain does, then it will suffer the consequences. In this regard, from America's standpoint the UK is no different from any other foreign country.
Complain about this comment
407. yellowbelly1959
LOL
And you were expecting something different ????
Complain about this comment
349. aye_write:
"#335 Friendlycard
How's this? Say Kirsty Wark (first well known Scot I could think of) for the sake this hypothetical question, said in an interview,
"David Cameron is a no-brained English idiot!"."
Actually, I would have no problem at all with that (though "no-brained" and "idiot" seems repetitive). She would have the perfect right to express that view.
What's more, if Mr Cameron was in office and wrecking the country, I would probably agree with her! As it is, the wrecker happens to be Brown.
Let's be clear on one thing. The use of "one-eyed" has offended some. The use of "Scottish" has offended others (though I don't think that "Scottish", or for that matter "English" or "Welsh", is generally considered offensive). But the operative term here - "idiot" - doesn't seem to have offended anyone!
Complain about this comment
417 scilian28
Good post.
I'm not in favour of personalised abuse, but Gordon Brown's personality flaws, his conduct and view of the world are simply not suited to the job.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Whilst the government tries to bury the torture news story and keep us from the facts of the case, why not amuse yourself with the Gordon Brown calculator:
http://www.tpadata.com/browncalculator/
Complain about this comment
I almost feel sorry for The Government this morning. Gordon Brown twice (Clarkson and Sarkozy), Ed Balls and Geoff Hoon all broadsided for one reason or another in The Press today flowing the snipes at David Milliband regarding the supposed torture of prisoners and his poor performance in China. How many more body punches can they take before they consider throwing he proverbial towel into the ring?
Complain about this comment
426. At 09:34am on 07 Feb 2009, jonathan_cook:
Excellent stuff!
That explains the tractor statistics we keep getting!
Complain about this comment
425
Dear moderator. If my comment broke the house rules heaven knows what some of the other insulting comments do.
I haven't mentioned any of the things that Brand and Ross, Thatcher or Clarkson said. haven't used any rude words. Haven't insulted anywhere.
All I can think is that you have a PhD and are insulted.
The BBC can now be seen to be totally biased. After the Gaza debacle I can only think that the BBC is not worth listening to or watching.
Pathetic.
Thank you and goodbye!!!
Complain about this comment
413. At 11:08pm on 06 Feb 2009, sicilian29 wrote:
Hazel Blears on BBC Newsnight. Bitter towards a filmed working class Conservative voter and accuses a Union Leader and a Centre For Policy Studies Representative of talking nonsense. Confirms my view of her which if printed would bring the wrath of The Mods around my ears.
===
Typical NuLabour then!
Grandantidote would be proud of her!!
Complain about this comment
Dear bloggers
In case you wondered what this is about is I commented that when at univesity we said that PhD stands for "piled higher and deeper."
Complain about this comment
429. At 09:43am on 07 Feb 2009, mikepko
Don't leave us. Just try rephrasing your original post a little and then repost it.
Complain about this comment
410 OLDNAT
How many Scots like to be called British? English or English, Welsh are Welsh etc.
So Clarkson was right, James Brown is a Scotish idiot, with one eye. Clarkson has only said what most want to.
Complain about this comment
360. Susan-Croft
I tried to reply in detail to you at 419 but the mods seem to have diverted it for closer scrutiny.
It outlines the dilemas we face when we adpot torture (nothing graphic or even offensive) but simply poses some questions that we would have to answer in order to go down that route.
They may release it later, you never know.
Complain about this comment
431 Part 2
Added to this we said that BSc (and I have one) stood for a bull's poo and MSc for "more of the same."
Hope this doesn't upset anyone as I have a BSc
Complain about this comment
Meanwhile back at the NuLabour tractor factory:
Legal loopholes''allowing MI5 to collude in torture'.
High Court urged to reconsider torture ruling.
After 40 years of actively supporting the labour party I jumped the NuLabour project in 2003 after the invasion of Iraq. The fact that NuLabour could be complicit in torture comes as no surprise to me.
Before anyone brands me a Tory - I have never voted Tory but I suspect I am in a similar position to many other people, come 2010 I will be voting for anybody but NuLabour.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
438
Dear moderator, obviously Mark Thompson has told you not to pass anything which says anything negative about anyone in the UK, particularly Scots.
This is very biased.
I'm surprised you have allowed yourself to be part of this. It shows a total lack of character on your part.
Complain about this comment
Nick why do you leave us nothing new to chat about at weekends?
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
P.S.
I read post #437 (mikepo) before it was deleted, and I am mystified as to what rule it could possible have broken. Perhaps someone could explain?
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.