The Prime Ministers
A global financial crisis. Repeated allegations of sleaze. A hostile media. It can't be much fun being prime minister.
Pause a moment before shedding a tear in sympathy for Gordon Brown or throwing your mouse at the screen whilst screaming "he brought it all on himself". I am writing not about the current prime minister but about another chancellor who moved into 10 Downing Street - indeed the first to do so, Sir Robert Walpole, our first Prime Minister.
I've been examining the history of those who've lived and worked behind the most famous front door in the world for The Prime Ministers - a new series which begins tomorrow on BBC Radio 4.
Politicians would have us believe that it was all so much easier before the era of globalisation, 24 hour news and widespread cynicism. There was, they suggest, a golden age in which politics was not dominated by talk of spin, sleaze or splits in parties, when it focussed on policies not personalities and when our leaders had the time and the space to take considered decisions. It's a proposition I've been examining through the modern glasses not of a historian but of a hack.
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When chairing the Cabinet Gordon Brown sits in front of a portrait of Walpole - the man who governed Britain from 1721. Though much has changed during almost three centuries separating their time in office, there is more than might you expect that connects them.
Whilst Brown has faced the credit crunch, Walpole had to deal with the economic havoc created after the South Sea bubble burst. It was a vast speculative bubble not in sub-prime mortgages but in the shares of the South Sea company.
When investors realised that those shares were about as worthless as the 400% mortgage of an unemployed man living in Minnesota the impact was felt not just around the world but by the highest figures in the land. The King and many of his courtiers had invested in the South Sea bubble.
The current occupant of Number 10 has faced questions about the expense claims of his MPs, the second homes of his ministers and loans to his party. His 18th Century predecessor was a touch more brazen - employing one son in a post that gave him a peerage and £7,000 a year (rather a lot in those days) and another who was still at school as "Comptroller of the Pipe and Escheat". Walpole also sold seats in Parliament.
Gordon Brown has, it may not surprise you to learn, occasionally been known to complain about the way he's reported. Discretion prevents me from adding more. Consider how he would feel, though, if he'd been presented as our first prime minister was. One cartoon of the day showed a massive naked bottom straddling the entrance to the Treasury. No face was shown. None was needed so widespread was the view that in order to get on you had to kiss that part of Walpole's anatomy.
The prime minister then could do something that his successor must sometimes want to do - banning all reporters from Parliament and introducing government censorship of the theatre but this did not protect him from public scorn.
So far so similar you might say but the current occupant of Number 10 also has to confront the threat of terror. So, too Sir Robert Walpole. The terror threat of his day came not from al-Qaeda but from the Jacobites who were intent on restoring a Catholic to the throne of England.
After one plot was uncovered the prime minister ordered thousands of troops to mass in Hyde Park. Some accused him of exaggerating the threat in order to whip up public anger and to bolster support for the government. Such a thing would be impossible today, wouldn't it?
I've always winced when hearing modern politicians condemned for their lack of a sense of history as I feared that I was all too guilty of the same offence. I've thoroughly enjoyed immersing myself in the story of eight former prime ministers from Walpole to Attlee (chosen, before you ask, on a whim) and I owe a huge debt to the historians whose work I've shamelessly plundered.
You can listen tomorrow at 0930 GMT on BBC Radio 4 (or again on Sunday night at 2245 GMT) or by clicking here.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~39~RS~)
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Rahere at least has been showing how history may have a modern relevance.
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About the only point here we can expand on sensibly is that Supt David Hartshorn, head of the Public Order branch of the Metropolitan police, has today presented certain views in the Guardian which appear to answer your question in the ante-penultimate paragraph. Yes, it not only could happen, but just has. And since expanding on that contemptible comment is exactly what they want, we should refuse the offer.
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Unless, of course, you intend to suggest bringing back hanging at Tyburn?
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Sounds like it'll be most illuminating, Nick.
History does indeed have a lot to offer by way of perspectives. Walpole on Brown ? I'd suggest Churchill in 1945, and Callaghan in 1979, myself.
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Wow! Current affairs, man!
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Nick
Why would Brown want to ban reporters from parliament, when the current batch are happy to absent themselves when things get at all challenging?
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But what are your views on Labour's financial crisis, allegations of sleaze, a hostile media, and all the other problems they face??
As the political editor of the BBC, you do have an opinion, don't you??
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Any news on the loan Deripaska seeks from Mandy, by the way?
PS I know it's less important than what Mr Robinson wrote about above.
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The BBC is wonderful at reporting history, but why do it's correspondents appear to absent themselves from current affairs when there is a suggestion that all may not be well with our dear departing government. Please lets have some focussed reporting on the incompetence of the present government and leave the history to the ex Oxbridge dons who live off the BBC's resources
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Nick,
Now that you have provided an advert for your next programme, can I assume that you will shortly be returning to your day job and passing comment on current political events, or have I missed the point? This will surely be an extremely short lived blog?
ATB
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Oops, sorry, logged on to wrong blog by mistake!
Does anyone have directions for Nick Robinson's political blog?
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So is this the latest strategy in the newlabour spin machine?
Rather than take the rap for an imploding economy after an unprecedented credit boom? No, let's just write about the fact that bubbles have happened snce time immemorial and this is just another one..
Noce try but if that's the case why did Gordon Brown promise us he'd abolished boom and bust?
The problem for the governemnt, Gordon Brown and he BBC sit that they have all got so far onto the back foot that their manoeuverings are plain for all to see.
This is a transparent attempt to build a new narrative for the government.
The government has no narrative; it has broken the economy and the banking system in a way that has no parrallel in history.
Call an election.
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Nick,
any comment on Mr Mandelson's good friend Oleg Deripaska (you know, the one who Mandelson spent a pleasant summer with last year on his yacht) asking the same Mr Mandelson, Business Secretary, for a sub of GBP40 million 'til pay day, to tide him over his little ahem, cash flow problems at LDV? The company that Unite were giving veiled signals about at the wekend?
No?
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Nick,
I think that you are being very clever. It is up to the individual to listen to your programme and understand that nothing really is 'new'. We cannot learn from history because each new event is different in some way from something else. It is not a machine for ever producing the same nut, the same size, the same in every minor detail, history is not like that.
When I listen to your programme I will treat is an analogy. There are 'things' which we cannot say about current events and living people, but we can leave it to the listener to say to themselves, 'hey I think he might mean this or that person'.
You were very clever over the yacht affair, only now can we see the problem with regard to states baling out firms, or companies, South Sea Company for example. Now which firm could we be talking about.
Many years ago, during the Vietnam War, George C. Scott appeared in a film about a chaotic hospital, the hospital was an analogy for the War. Finally, they shoot horses don't they, they put them out of their misery.
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It is history which shapes the present. The present shapes the future.
Some say, the past is gone it is dead let it sleep, its lessons alone are the things we should keep.
Prime Ministers in the past were not subjected to being shown on TV 24/7 and on the internet, Youtube etc.
However, as Brown would say, global solutions for a global age. He will just have to grin (if he can) and bear it.
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I find this report from you very confusing, whilst I agree with you that history is important, it bears no resemblance to what is happening today.
A lot of Walpoles problems were not of his making, G. Browns are. Im not sure whether you are making a case for Browns its Global. Or you have immersed youself so much in history that you are making comparisons which do not exist.
If Brown thought he could get away with it he most certainly would use armed police to put down any descent. His every action proves that he has a Government which is closed not only to public but Parliament itself. He uses the media to report his spin and they very rarely bring him to account.
Brown and Blair have also exaggerated the threat from terrorists to feed public fear in my opinion, all in order curtail free speech, to spy on us all and engage in wars which were not lawful. The Governnment now controls our lives in a way that would never have been allowed in Walpoles day.
If however you are saying that we have learnt nothing from the past and have people in Government who are making the same mistakes as our predecessors. I would agree with that, yes I do think under this Government democracy has gone backwards.
Fruthermore Walpole dispite having shortcomings was a great man, Brown certainly does not fit into that category. He is a very poor leader, and will leave Britain on its knees. In my opinion he is probably the worst PM we have ever had certainly the most undemocratic. I believe he will go down in history as such.
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Bring back Spitting Image!
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Curious choice of blog material, when, in my humble opinion, there are so many more comment worthy topics Robinson could have chosen following his "absence"
Contributors here may be be a sad minority of politics aficionados but many who aren't trained journalists could do a better job of asking those in the corridors of power searching questions. It seems to me the more contentious stories that could (would) embarrass Gordon Brown, Mandelson et al are frequently left well alone. I've said before the tenacity with which Robinson went after the Shadow Chancellor and ignored the more substantive political story there is somewhat transparent. I'm not alone in this assertion either.
I wonder which cartoon would be most appropriate to lampoon Gordon Brown in his current predicament. I cannot believe for one moment Gordon Brown has complained about the manner in which Robinson reports on the Government and Prime Minister. If he is unhappy with the media perception of him, perhaps he could do something about it, say for example, actually answer something at PMQ's or show some contrition and humility. No doubt he'll do the latter as an Election looms.
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I'm interested Nick - how do you feel about newspaper hacks moving with the times (relevant today!) and giving us up-to-date angles on what's going on. After all, wasn't speed one advantage of the modern hi-tech age?
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@cityNickDrew
Lets not forget John Major, another Chancellor turned failing Prime Minister.
In fact, if we learn lessons from history, no one who has been Chancellor should be eligible for the PM's job.
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Nick,
Nice to see you back, and hope that you enjoyed yourself.
Is the purpose of this programme to show past history in the light of today's political developments?
So, is it a tacit agreement that you are currently constricted in what you can say and report that you have to take historical figures and apply them retrospectively?
It could be extremely illuminating, or most depressingly dull. I'd much rather have appropriate reporting and comment in the present.
How long did the electorate have to suffer Walpole?
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The authoritarian system and control of the press instigated by Walpole was finally dismantled by William Hone. ‘The Laughter of Triumph’ by Ben Wilson gives an important insight into the role and duty of an independent press and a very enjoyable read as well.
Hone indicted on three separate charges in 1817 of criminal libel chose to defend himself. He was a devastating satirist with a wonderful sense of the absurd and with his wit and diligence made a mockery out of the establishment.
Why does Rory Bremner pale in comparison to John Stewart, where has the art of investigative journalism disappeared too and when will the two be combined into a hyperactive Nick Robinson?
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Within the first twenty responses, most of which were not visible when I added my own #19, Mandelson and Oleg Deripaska feature prominently already. There are stories out there, you just need to go looking, that of course is if you have a mind to.
Just for fun, if the regular contributors here were polled on which story they'd like Robinson to major on, I wonder what the majority would select. Actually, I don't wonder at all, I already have a pretty good idea!!
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"Politicians would have us believe that it was all so much easier before the era of globalisation, 24 hour news and widespread cynicis"
When Brown tries to tell us that all of a sudden, we have become part of a global economy, it makes me want shoot the TV screen.
No kidding Sherlock!
Wonder if the Romans realised we were part of a global economy? So things move a bit faster these days because of improved communications - so what?!
Labour have proved themselves very adept at managing the 24 hours news cycle. Let's be honest, Labour would have been found out years ago if it wasn't for their ability to spin.
Gordon also has been treated very leniently by the media - given his inability to deal with the truth and the utter waste of tax payers money over 11 years and his destruction of our finances.
In conclusion Nick - what is the point in 'discretion' ? Gordon is just dealing with historically the very common problems and issues of being British PM.
Brown manipulates the BBC to broadcast his own agenda. Why bother with anything other than reporting the facts? To hell with discretion - he's a big boy and wanted the job enough to stab Tony in the back for it.
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Rahere's returning to the outstanding threads from last week, faute d'autre.
One outstanding question was the US fundamentalist right. Some of them I've experienced have a certain foundation, most are as loopy as GWB's circle, and many ARE GWB's circle writ large. Investigate and condemn, and remember that Matthew quotation I keep spouting, big fellowships aren't usually great fellowships. Two ot three together, not two or three thousand...
Part of the question is the same as the Church faced in Walpole's day, however: the poor and disenfranchised found no home in the Church, but found their homes in the Wesleyan revival, which started right at the end of Walpole's career.
Another part is talking things down. Are we responsible for the slide? Only when we keep going beyond a point of rationality. The core values I was talking about are far from coming into sight, we still see honest banking a pipedream and efforts to reflate the housing bubble on the old basis. When mortgages are offered on the basis of a savings record in the German model, and not a return from 75% to 80 or 95% as discussed on Bob Peston's blog, only then will we be starting to be able to justify the value of something as opposed to its price.
We still see loans funded at usurous turns, 1000% on the cost of the funds loaned.
We still see no prosecution or even investigation of those responsible.
And we still see them preaching confidence, mammon, that false God of delusion, as a criterion.
No, until these things are put aside, until then we will see no recovery because there will be nothing to trust in.
On the other hand, I also talked about the indications that there are longer-term plans. Go reread the texts in any case and see what they actually say. It's not incompatible.
I talked about faith a while back. It's a first step into the well-nigh dark unknown of our future, and it's a necessary step, but it's only a little one. It's a step of trust, and trust is built from such little steps. Maybe sometime people will take big ones, but there's always someone new just learning their way, and they still take little ones. Indeed, it's from our litle ones we must learn, they trust us and we will never betray that trust: if ever we do, then all is lost. It's the same with government, we trust them and they must never betray that trust or all is lost. Sadly, that's pretty much the case now, it's time for a radical clear-out.
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"Discretion prevents me from adding more"
Why? You are supposed to be a reporter, be your own man for once, and dont report what you are told to report
After your week long break not commenting on any of the sleaze of this Government and its ministers, does speak volumes who controls you
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Nick,
when people say that Gordon said he had abolished 'boom and bust' that I think you will find was the not the whole story, he said 'Tory boom and bust' well I would say that when the conservatives actually win an election there will be so little left that there will be no boom nor bust, it will just be bust.
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Is there any truth in the rumour that "GB the unelected" wants to extend the current parliament beyond May 2010, in order to give him more time to sort out the mess that he got us into since he believes that he is the only one who can get us out of it.
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Other than a confirmation of the fact that Gordon Brown is a prominent part of Bob's your Uncle's anatomy, what relevance does this have to the price of fish?
Or lords, ministers and MEPs, come to that.
Do fast-forward 300 years and give us your considered and learned views on:
1. Brown's political future (a very small subject, I know, but still....)
2. The Home Secretary's curious financial and domestic arrangements.
3. Harriet Harridan's leadership ambitions.
4. Lord Mandelson's adept manipulations of the media.
5. The slow-motion implosion that is New Labour.
6. The rise of the BNP as resentment grows at New Labour's mismanagement of the economy turns into a virtual campaign against the employed working classes.
7. The unparalleled levels of national debt that will cast a shadow over the next two decades.
Etc. etc.
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Hello Nick,
Another week, another shameless plug?
All very nicely put - you acknowledge the input of the historians from which you borrow. You're just putting a face to someone else's material. A bit like the day job, then?
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Is that it!! A plug for a forthcoming Radio 4 show??
With the economy in freefall, Harman positioning, Blears openly admitting divisions within the cabinet, the wretch-inducing pictures of Brown, Sarkozy and Merkel having a group hug, LDV & Mandelson, the polls, and everything else that has happened since the last apology for a posting....you plug your radio show!?!
I've given up with this nonsense. Good job you're not elected Nick....you'd have definitely lost my vote.
Bye all. I resign.
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The Walpole cartoon Nick refers to sounds most apt. Very fitting.
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Is there an equivalent in Walpole's government of Mandy?
Any rich oligarchs, yachts, mortgage applications?
Any queries about residencies?
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I'll look forward to this series of programmes.
I bet it shows we never learn the lessons of history...
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Prime Ministers are Crime Ministers
i know the real brothers
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Thanks for the history lesson. So in nearly 300 years, never have we had a more hated premier.
Here's a parallel question for you: Did Walpole have a mandate from the British people to govern?
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You're damn right it isn't fun being PM. Then again Nick he and his party have spread plenty of misery around the place, it's only fair they should suffer the gloom too. Still, it doesn't stop the wannabes skulking around the cobweb strewn corridors of New Labour land as they position themselves for their turn at the job.
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If you DO have to look into history - equate Brown with Neville Chamberlain, the most unpopular British PM ever soon to be toppled from that post. Take that how you will but the public want him out. NOW.
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History could teach Brown something? You're joking aren't you? He quotes history but learns nothing from it - if the analogy were correct then Brown might have equated the housing/finacial bubble with the South Sea bubble and acted to calm things down - but he did not, suggesting you can say the words but has little understanding. If you think that harsh consider that the problems that surfaced in 2007 were not new and debt loading issues were being discussed long before then - but I don't think he was listening.
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woah a bit of a leap comparing Al Queda to the Jacobites
You say the restoration of a Catholic throne ?
not really the bulk of the Scots were not Catholic at that time, just the landed Gentry, who had aspirations of power.
Time and time again the normal people of Scotland, were shafted by the Gentry or the Church.
All the people wanted was peace and the right to call their home, home, but the various Kings of England feared the threat of France coming in via Scotland, hence the handing out of lands and the jostle of titles and power.
And the church was no different, at one time Scotland was the daughter of Rome, then it wasnt then it was, it was all a power game.
There are many many kind and virtuous people in the world, some have a faith , some don't, and they have over the years been victim of the power struggles of the church and of the state.
You will have read in history the same situation happening over and over again with times of calm in between, you would think we would have learned something by now.
If you watched the matrix series of films, in the third film you see Neo the chosen one, and you find out he makes the same mistake time and time again, and each time civilisation is destroyed.
after making some tough choices, this time they all live happily ever after, this is the mindset we need to get into.
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Police are bracing themselves for a 'summer of rage' against the economic crisis, a senior officer warned today.
Superintendent David Hartshorn, who heads the Metropolitan Police's public order branch, said he feared there could be 'mass protest' at rising unemployment, failing financial institutions and the downturn in the economy.
The officer told The Guardian that 'known activists' were planning returns to the streets, and intelligence revealed that they may be able to call on more protesters than normal due to the unprecedented conditions.
===
It looks as though those 10,000 tasers are being plugged into their chargers even as we speak!
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28 - I preferred the tory boom and bust. This labour version is rubbish.
In other news, I will still be voting Labour at the next election, Frank Field has done wonders for my home borough and the Conservatives have not done enough to persuade me that I should vote otherwise. Just a small lesson in early chicken counting there.
Sort it out , Cameron!
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#41 Ilicipolero
I apologise unreservedly to our beloved Prime Minister who is doing a splendid job in extremely trying circumstances. I realise the phrase "half wit" is grossly unfair.
Golem is barely a quarter wit!!
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26. At 10:26am on 23 Feb 2009, rahere
rahere: Have finished E Heidner' papers, now why is his thesis' not really being discussed on the following blog?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2008/10/caught_up_in_a_conspiracy_theo.html
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Not entirely unrelated to my previous post, cause and effect, and all that:
"Jacqui Smith has launched an astonishing defence of her decision to claim £116,000 in expenses - by insisting she could have had even more.
The Home Secretary declared: 'The charge that is made of me is that I have tried to maximise the money that I have claimed. Well, I haven't.'
According to official figures, however, she claimed a mere £58 less than the full amount possible over three years."
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Of course Nick, Gordon Brown was the only one actually to have a PHD in history. We were in the Edinburgh University history department at the same time and if, as an undergraduate, Mr Brown had taken Tom Barron's British Empire History 2 course he would have known just what a disaster Iraq would turn out to be. (He almost certainly did because his younger brother Andrew was in my BE2 class and you had to take that course if you wanted to study for an honours degree.
And guess what. Gordon very briefly taught me British History (I) before the Head of the Arts faculty and head of the history dept George Shepperson gave him the heave ho for being such a trouble maker.And yes he was crap at that as well. Turned up with a bunch of papers and got on with his own thing while some poor sod (ie me) had to read out a 5000 word essay which Brown had already pre marked. 50 out of 100 seeing as you ask. Crap essay. Crap tutor, Crap PM. I can't wait for him to leave office. We need someone better than a failed radical socialist to lead the country at this juncture. I just wish that the Tories would get their act together. At the 2005 Labour party conference Gordon talked about there having been a bubble in the property market. Past tense. For me it just about summed up the financial illiteracy of someone who has never had any instinct for capitalism at all. Hence the late life crush on 'the market'.There is no fool like an old fool and really Gordon ought to consider his position so that we can move on as a country. It all feels so terribly undemocratic at the moment.
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Nick,
All very interesting and thanks for the plug.. but a lot of things have been happening in your abscence...
a. Jacqui Snith is being investigated - any news?
b. Donations to the Tory party via Lord Ashcroft are being investigated - any news?
c. The ownner of LDV vans (a good freind of Mr Mandelson) wants a GVN bail-out? Because of the link with our buisness secretary - is this politically possible or will 6,000 jobs be sacrified to save one (if you catch my drift).
d. Brown has won the race to be the first European leader to meet the messiah. What has his victory cost us - extra British troops to be sent to Afganistan?
e. Gordon has called for an end to 100% mortgages - stable door shutting - anyone.
f. Cabinet ministers have been briefing agianst each other in the press - Harriet seems to fancy the top job.
g. The Tories have opened up a 20% + lead in the polls; plus the Lib Dems seem to be close to over-taking Labour.
10. The odious BNP win a council seat in Kent. Might they also take a seat in the Euro elections. Why are they gaining ground? Is this the problem with PR?
See there are political stories around - so please could you cover a few.
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It was the abolition of Bills of Attainder which allowed the job of Prime Minister to evolve
I would bring back Bills of Attainder.
The idea that a vote in Parliament could mean the Minister, Prime or otherwise, was banged up in The Tower on a capital charge of high treason would concentrate a lot of minds and encourage others to find gainful employment in the real economy.
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As we are talking about history (WHY?), here is a blast from NewLabour's past, Bryan Gould. See what he thinks about Labour now:
"I disown this governmentI have watched Labour compromise its principles, embrace greed and take the UK into war and recession. Torture is the last straw"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/feb/20/labour-foreign-policy
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#24 Ilicipolero
Mandelson and Oleg
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Both this and the previous blog have been used to promote Nick's radio appearances.
However, to enter in the spirit of the thing: Thus the Tory party was destroyed; weakened by its virues and lashed by events, it proved no match for Walpole; it failed totally to exploit the opportunities that came its way at the time of the South Sea crisis. It failed to provide an effective barrier to Walpole's steady progress towards a single party state. By 1725 Tories were outcasts. (J.H.Plumb The Growth of Political Stability in England 1675-1725) (abridged).
At that time the Tories were accused of Treason (supporting the Jacobites), rather than doing nothing, and this justified a wide extension of executive power by the Whigs. Treasonous Tories might be Brown's next soundbite. Or perhaps Torture a Banker week.
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A week since your last post, eleven days since your last proper post.
And then this?
I don't think any one person would have guessed that the subject of your next post would be Robert Walpole.
How bizarre.
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Brown isn't going anywhere - he hasn't waited this long to be beaten in an election!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/feedarticle/8370470
A bit of civil disobedience along side the depression and we will have a national emergency with democracy suspended.
Where is that in your history stuff Nick?
What we really need now is the full SP on oleg/mandleson (if it wouldn't be indiscrete) so we can have confidence in his dealing with the van company.
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HaHa.
Time to pay the tab for that jolly on board Olegs yacht Peter.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/industrials/article5786917.ece
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Nick, we've seen nothing from you for a week and you re-appear giving a history lesson that does nothing more than plug your Radio 4 progamme. Perhaps Simon Mayo's show would have been a better platform.
Can we not expect more from the BBC's Political Editor? Mandelson and Oleg Deripaska, there is where you should be looking.
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First time comment, having read this blog with increasing alarm over recent weeks.
No follow up on the "Gordon for Global Financial Regulator" story which appears to have started the "Harman for next leader" furore?
Can it be that the dour Leader’s reputation for saving the World has a taken a wee knock following the realisation that the UK is not best placed? Would this lead his crack PR team to leak “Gordon for World Leader” to the Guardian? Is this the same team which launched the highly entertaining “Tony Blair for European President”?
For a political machine which once prided itself on its media management, this is a poor show. I will carry on laughing about it until I meet the first person who thinks it is a good idea. This may take some time because I am finding it difficult to find anyone who is prepared to admit to voting Labour.
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/facepalm
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#51 yellowbelly1959
A damning indictment indeed. Unfortunately the Golem's delusions will blind him into thinking that it is praise instead.
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RE: LDV
So now we know why Mandleson was so miffed when the union piped up, the bright light of day falls on his plans...
Funny that it started at £40,000,000 - now is £20,000,000 to £30,000,000.
6000 jobs for £20,000,000 - thats only £3,400 each - if they want the jobs, they can remortgage and put the money up themselves...
Hows that fit in with history Nick? It would avoid a repeat of the Rover rip off...
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"he brought it all on himself" no he brought it on us.
Brown is the worst PM England ever had.
The only good he represents is that he brings the end of the UK and the establishment of direct democracy for England closer.
Home rule for England.
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Youve got to love him havnt you.
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/85900/Mandy-s-80-000-office-makeover
He kinda epitimises NuLabours troughing so nicely, leaving no doubt as to his thoughts about the man on the street.
Well... him and Michael Martin
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Thanks for the programme plug, Nick.
Do you still do any political commentary?
It seems the only reason you blogged today was for the plug!
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Nick
Anything that the Political Editor of the BBC can comment on? An awful lot has happened in the last week, surely you must have some inside information to whet our appetites. We've all waited for your thoughts on the thoughts of PM (Peter Mandelson). So disappointed that the best you can come up with is the South See Bubble.
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Nice cameo with Anita Nick, but hardly anything of substance.
I think we might need a "rules of engagement" type blog so that we can more fully realise the restraints under which you work
Then if it becomes blatantly obvious that you are unable to actually comment on home events we know the terms under which your blog entries are couched.
It hardly serves the debate here if you are gagged from observing certain events until they become more concrete. I feel a little clarity is required.
Hopefully with Andrew's return it'll just be first day back nerves and more comment is forthcoming on Wednesday for pmq's
Would you, like Andrew, offer up your expense claims for public scurtiny?
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#17 Susan-Croft
Hello Susan-Croft, you suggest that Gordon Brown will leave this country on it's knees and I'm inclined to agree with you although desperately hopeful that he won't.
As a cynic, however, I'm inclined to think that this is what he intends, as ultimately, it will play into the hands of New Labour.
To expand this theme, if you look at David Cameron, he's essentially Blair mkII and his style of politics is based upon 'positive' headlines. With the mess that's likely to be left for him, there aren't going to be an awful lot of those and he's showing no sign of becoming an old fashioned substance politician.
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#29
There is precedent in deferring elections, look at the Northern Irish local elections to see how a mandate can be extended repeatedly. Their elections have just been deferred by yet another year, for administrative convenience.
#34
In terms of levels of corruption, they still hold the record - just. In terms of your other pointers, they're about on a par.
#35
As far as catholics are concerned, we just saw the last of one and now the manse is the Cardinal's Palace. Unless he was asking who takes over from O'Connor. Terminator 10, any one?
#43
That wasn't the best quote from him, though: "Suddenly there is the opportunity for people to mass protest." Can't have protest, now, can we?
I've said before and I'll say again that the closest resemblance was 1381, when the people, already on their beam ends had another load of taxation dumped on them and rebelled. The only difference there is that Jack Straw at that time was leading the rebellion. and even he had a Thomas Taylor in his followers. On which count, what happened to their Lordships?
#46
Because that blog doesn't seem to have much in common with the leadership of two European countries having a number of common traits, none of them exactly fitting for holding public office.
#50
About as much chance of that as of an election deibng declared tommorrow, given that the removal of the death penalty for treason was about the first thing this lot did on gaining office. Anyway, about the only definition of treason fitting the bill is the one of killing the Chancellor. Does reducing him to a nonentity count?
In the mean time, let's keep the reputation of the blog going autonomously. LDV, the van company being bailed out by Mandy for 40m, is owned by Oleg Deripaska, Russia's richest oligarch and a renowned yachtsman. Discuss.
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The Tories received £5 million from Lord Ashcroft which are now being officially investigated over whether he is officially resident in the UK to pay tax and whether the money originally came from Belize via a shell company (the sort of thing Swiss bankers advise tax dodgers to set up). What do the BBC do? A couple short reports at the weekend and then the story is buried.
In contrast, Wendy Alexander received the massive sum of £950 from a Jersey businessman for an internal election and the media (particularly the BBC - didn't you rush out to Jersey, Nick for this story?) attacked her day after day like Rottweilers until she was forced to resign.
This is just one of many examples where Labour scandals of whatever size are picked at day after day, while those involving the Tories are quickly dropped.
It is clear now that the way the BBC covers a political scandal is now entirely dependent on which party commited the offence rather than what is alleged to have occurred.
The BBC is in danger of becoming as 'fair and balanced' as FOX News.
Surely the issue of Lord Ashcroft was a more important subject for the Daily Politics than plugging your Radio series and more mindless gossip about Harriet Harmen.
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Oh well... satisfaction levels with Nick's first Prime Minister blog seems low.... Perhaps he is predicting the end of Union and that this could be the last Prime Minister?
If so, what proportion of the debt is Mr Salmond proposing to take on? He wants a relationship of equals, so will that be 50/50 then? or perhaps 25% would be fairer as a quarter of the Union?
Nevertheless, we have learned something today, with the Met story about a Summer of rage.
Clearly Nick's recent warzone training course did not pressage a change of post, but was just a wise precaution on the part of the BBC for his following the Home Secretary (whoever she is in the Summer) on a tour of the battleground......
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44. At 11:09am on 23 Feb 2009, kingloneranger wrote:
28 - I preferred the tory boom and bust. This labour version is rubbish.
In other news, I will still be voting Labour at the next election, Frank Field has done wonders for my home borough and the Conservatives have not done enough to persuade me that I should vote otherwise. Just a small lesson in early chicken counting there.
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You are lucky to have an honourable and effective constituency MP like Frank Field.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1151829/FRANK-FIELD-I-sickened-Margaret-Thatchers-MPs-hated-her.html
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This parody is well worth a read:
http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/02/23/ceos-report-to-uk-shareholders/
Thanks Gordon.............
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Nick, what can we learn from history? Well, that this government is on its last legs:
"The symptoms are always the same when governments break down: sleaze takes hold, the ambitious defect, ministers turn disloyal, connection with reality gets lost and it becomes a matter of hanging on pointlessly to the end.
This state of affairs has occurred three times since World War II. The first occasion was the end of the 1951-64 Conservative Government, marked by fratricide - when senior ministers refused to serve under Prime Minister Alec Douglas-Home - and public scandal such as the Profumo affair.
The second came at the very end of the 1970s, when Cabinet members like Tony Benn manoeuvred openly for the succession in the final months of the bankrupt Jim Callaghan premiership.
Fifteen years later and John Major's Government suffered a similar collapse. Giant rifts opened up inside Cabinet, the Government became mired in sexual and financial scandal, and ministers lost contact with the public mood.
Gordon Brown's Government has now acquired the full symptoms of one of these fag-end administrations. The first of these is sleaze. Ministers and MPs have lost all notion of the idea of the distinction between public duty and their own, sordid private advantage.
Of course, a handful of John Major's Tory MPs were openly on the take - but not at nearly such a high level as Labour's miscreants.
The Major period offered nothing comparable to the Jacqui Smith scandal, with a Home Secretary making false statements in order to obtain money from the public purse (Ms Smith has still not sued me after I accused her last week of thievery: does her failure to do so amount to an admission of guilt?)
There is one further difference between the Jacqui Smith affair and the John Major period. When ministers were caught out doing something wrong under Major, they soon resigned.
By contrast, Gordon Brown has thrown a protective shield round the Home Secretary - an indication that, far from being hit by the occasional case of sleaze, his Government suffers it as a systemic problem.
The second symptom of terminal decay is disloyalty. Ministers are now actively preparing their exit strategies, just as they did at the end of the Callaghan and Major period.
The third symptom is a dark sense of unreality. It is obvious, for example, that Gordon Brown increasingly lives in some bizarre parallel world.
As our finances collapse, he continues to insist that our economy is built on 'sound fundamentals'. The Prime Minister cannot begin to address the desperate problems Britain now faces until he accepts that something has gone very fundamentally wrong.
The final symptom of government collapse is the most obvious one. We are at the stage where even Cabinet ministers have privately written off winning the next General Election. Instead they are beginning to position themselves for the leadership contest which will follow defeat at the polls.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1151382/PETER-OBORNE-Treachery-sleaze-Prime-Minister-denial--This-Government-collapse.html
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Interesting read, Nick. I wonder if the political editor in 300 years time will post a blog (or the form of up-to-date technology) comparing Mr. Brown of the 21st century and a PM of the 24th century? That is, if we are still ruled by the same Prime Ministerial system! I wonder how history will portrait Mr. Brown and the financial crisis?
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Surely, the whole point of being PM in the eighteenth century was so that one had control over the vast system of patronage which enabled oneself and one's coterie to enrich themselves. Actually doing anything was entirely subsidiary. What the South Sea Bubble, etc etc show us is that there are points on a financial cycle when politicians should intervene - unfortuantely it's almost always at the point where it is politically most difficult to do so: i.e. you appear to be interevening to prevent people from pursuing their "legitimate interests" to better themselves.
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Thank God! Lord Mandie has let Nick make another entry!
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So, too Sir Robert Walpole. The terror threat of his day came not from al-Qaeda but from the Jacobites who were intent on restoring a Catholic to the throne of England.
---
The difference is even then our essential liberties were not stolen from us in such a way as this ZanuLabour party has- 42 days detention without charge? What the hell happened to due process? Innocent till proven guilty?
The law courts have went the same way as 'Beeb' neutrality- its dead. And Zanu Labour rien supreme.
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How about a story on Jade Goody, Nick?
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Fascinating stuff!
Can we have something about the Armada next... or my favorite, Henry VIII?
Please!
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Hi Nick
I wish you well with your programme and agree that Walpole was a fascinating character.
One issue though; may i be rude enough to enquire as to what your job description is?
After your blogs this week and last I think that licence payers have a right to know.
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That LDV's only the tip of the iceberg. The whole iceberg reveals a very unpretty picture, if only because we seem to have been dragged in to bail out a RUSSIAN bubble.
Deripaska's using that 4.5 billion RBS loan to refinance his Rusal aluminium business , as the value of his holdings now appear to have dropped dramatically from 40bn to 5 bn or so and he has 20bn debts to cover.
Added to that, there's the lawsuit from Michael Cherney claiming 20% of the Rusal stock allegedly entailed by Roman Abramovich , being heard in the UK against the better wishes of Mr Justice Clarke, which has shown another 10% of the company is held by an alleged Russian mobster, Andrei Malevski. Deripaska in return accusess them both of running protection extorsion rackets, which Cherney obviously denies.
In connection with my other recent postings, in 2002 Cherney published a book on the victims of the Tel Aviv Dolphnarium terror attack. Wikipedia quotes the leader of the Yisrael Beiteinu party, Avigdor Liberman, and probable kingmaker in the recent Israeli elections, as saying: "3,000 years ago Israel was fighting against Philistines who sacrificed their children to their gods. This book confirms that once again Israel has encountered the ancient evil: we are fighting Palestinians who sacrifice children - both theirs and ours - on the altar of jihad." Interesting...go look up those references.
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and will your program be covering Walpole's promises to the electorate.?
Did he promise to abolish boom and bust?
Did he promise to end child poverty?
Did he promise to be a rock of stability?
Did he promise to end the culture of spin?
Did he promise education, education, education?
Did he break all his promises just like Gordon Brown and newlabour have?
Call an election. This is an embarrassment to us all.
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You can learn a lot from history, and most of you lot need to, - for example, here's a quotation from Tony Benn in the seventies:
"These lessons led me to the conclusion that the UK is only superficially governed by MPs and the voters who elect them. Parliamentary democracy is, in truth, little more than a means of securing a periodical change in the management team, which is then allowed to preside over a system that remains in essence intact. If the British people were ever to ask themselves what power they truly enjoyed under our political system they would be amazed to discover how little it is, and some new Chartist agitation might be born and might quickly gather momentum."
So, forget the Tories - bring back the Chartists!
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Once again we have yet another set of (un)sound bites from our increasingly hapless Prime Minister, most of which contradict his comments of the past few weeks.
When are we going to have a BBC correspondent with the courage to ask Mr. Brown the questions that most people on these blogs want answered, and continue to ask him until a satisfactory response is forthcoming?
P.S In these dark days, the following which was overheard in a supermarket might bring a smile:
"I dunno 'ow Gordon Brown can claim to have put an end to 'booming busts'. Obviously 'e ain't seen Jordan and Victoria Beckham's over-inflated assets."
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Instead of blowing off on Walpole Nick maybe you could tell us why the BBC is going over the top welcoming an Ethiopian citizen to Britain, who may have been a terrorist in Afghanistan, and indeed may have been responsible for the death of British or allied soldiers. You should be asking why he has been returned to Britain, why not sent to Ethiopia and why we the British taxpayers are going to have to support him, and no doubt finance the civil rights lawyers he will probably employ to sue us for compensation for allowing him to be captured in a war zone.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Is it surprising that the BBC can no longer be trusted to tell us, its licence payers, what's happening, and to challenge those in power, with the facts?
I've seen the cosy relationship between Prime Ministers and BBC correspondents at press conferences. First name terms, jokey atmosphere etc. The questions are easily sidestepped.
That is not what we're paying for. 'Balance' between the parties isn't good enough. There is in reality, no equality between Government and Opposition. First and foremost it is the duty and responsibility of the media, and above all, the public service broadcasters, to hold the government to account for its failures and inform us of them.
It appears to me that the BBC is too interested in maintaining the 'correct' political balance... a little criticism of Labour here, then the Tories there, etc. It should be criticism and exposure when and where appropriate and necessary. Its in the public interest that it fulfils that role. It isn't happening.
The BBC has been tamed, right at the top. It is insipid. Its outrageous that we have to rely on a multiplicity of other (foreign) news channels to get nearer the truth of what is happening here, and what the British government has been up to. Its not what I pay 139 pounds a year for.
Criticism already expressed by others of the subject matter of this blog is justified.
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Nick,
What a wonderful man you are. Not only do you write wonderful blogs, but you produce wonderful programmes, all of which are overseen by wonderful producers and moderators. (#11 refers)
However, can I make a suggestion which is of course meant in the most constructive way. We are in the midst of the worst downturn (recesssion / depression) in over 60 years (or is that 300 years). Jobs are being lost, people made jobless/homeless, tax revenues are falling off a cliff, while all the time we spend and borrow more. Is it possible that somewhere in the Political correspondent department of the BBC there is a reporter with an ounce of nounce who gets this? Or are you all too busy listening to the violin music?
I agree with #32. C Ya - wouldn't want to B Ya.
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Perhaps Nick would care to do the job the licence fee payers pay him to do, and give us some honest political blogging?
Such as, why he won't discuss Mandelson's visit to Deripaska's yacht, considering we now have:
1. A suspicious reduction in aluminium tariffs, on multiple occasions.
2. A company owned by Deripaska now seeking £40m bailout from the government, man in charge of relevant department being.....yes you guessed it, it's him again. The disgraced, unelected business secretary Mandelson.
Come on, Nick, report on the real issues, and not Walpole please.
If I want Walpole, I'll go read my encyclopaedia.
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78. At 1:37pm on 23 Feb 2009, deanthetory wrote:
Thank God! Lord Mandie has let Nick make another entry!
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I think you could have phrased that better!
Then again, maybe not!!
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How Mandelson has the gall to waste £80,000 of taxpayers' money on giving his office a makeover during harsh economic times when we should be saving money is beyond me.
I fail to see how it is possible that people will still be willing to vote in a party with such characters in it (not that anyone will be voting for Mandelson of course).
It really is time to start prosecuting politicians for scandalous expenditure like this. If not immediately, then after the next election.
Or the Police may be right.....there may well be rioting on the streets of London.
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What is this twaddle?
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81. At 1:50pm on 23 Feb 2009, The_Lone_Whinger wrote:
Fascinating stuff!
Can we have something about the Armada next... or my favorite, Henry VIII?
===
Or his successor, Henry VII!
I know that to be a fact, I learned it from David Lammy, Minister for Higher Education.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWwyVQ2IQuE
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Nick - don't blame the man in Minnesota or the bank that lent that money. Northern Rock had no exposure to him. This recession is a failure of regulation and it is Gordon's fault.
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@ 71. At 1:03pm on 23 Feb 2009, PaulR494,
Re Lord Ashcroft and BBC Bias. Whilst I maintain that the overall coverage is biased towards the labour party, I am somewhat perplexed by the Lack of Lord Ashcroft coverage. I wonder what associations, think-tanks, secret-societies he shares memberships with others in senior positions in the BBC.?
Why would a BBC that is on occasion openly hostile to the tories, NOT be all over this like a starving dog on a rare fillet steak???
What does Lord Ashcroft know?
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You don't think we'll have the security forces en mass in London? Only today the Met have announced they're ready for a "Summer of Rage". I do hope thats a sly attempt to get that negative bit of news past your political officer.
I guess that although the two Prime Ministers aren't facing the same issues, it DOES show that nothing really changes and there are MPs that use parliament to feather their nests, build up significant bank balances at taxpayers expense and use terror as a way of manipulating government.
Any chance you might comment on how Jaqui Smith and Chris Grayling seem to have used the same speech writer this weekend? I'm betting the talk of curfews for youths if implemented wouldn't take long to extend to curfews for everyone.
After all, nanna government wants you all tucked up in bed when it gets dark and not out enjoying yourself.
If the two main parties sound so alike, just who do you vote for? Looks like a lot of people think the BNP.....
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Ah, Nick Robinson's History Blog. He'll be on Time Team next.
Here's a thought, considering the majority on here seem to be of the opinion that this is either 1. a waste of time, space and our license fee or 2. diversionary tactics on the remote hope that we only get our 'news' from the BBC and we don't actually know what is going on, or 3. Nick isn't up to the job description.....
Just don't post anything, at all, not another word until Mr R comes up with something relevant to today rather than the 18th Century.
Dare you
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Mr. Robinson, are you the B.B.C.'s political editor or not? Two Mondays running you have given us a load of 'old tut'. Nothing at all on politics.
I read about Tony Blair Associates on my computer.
I heard about Derepaska, Head of Gaz of Russia, and the request for A BRIDGING LOAN for LDV vans, on independant radio news broadcast.
In the role in which you equate yourself, I truly believe that you should have been at the forefront with these stories, plus an update on the Home Secretary's expenses, Leader of H of C and her glory bid etc.
Certainly not a reference to your broadcast on linquistics [16th] and a history lesson [23rd]; no real stories then?
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Nick,
so you've only just realised that the spin that brown's been getting you to spout about "it's all new, nothing to do with me" is just complete and utter rubbish?
Everyone else has been telling you that for months.
I've just read brown's new website which tells you all about the crisis; I think it's some kind of sick joke. It just tells you the same old brown lies "not our fault. all new. nothing we could have done. we haven't done anything wrong...."
(all new? globalism? tell that to the vikings, egyptians, etc etc; we've had globalism ever since we've had evolved humans, it's just that before labour came to power our rulers/governments had bothered to keep up with things and helped limit our risks/exposures by governing properly. funny how this kind of "global" problem which destroys our economy only ever happens in this country during labour rule)
Does anyone apart from labour MPs and labour "core voters" and the bbc think that brown is actually sane ? I've never liked the man for happily/willingly/deliberately destroying our economy with a smug grin on his face, but I think he's truly lost it by now as he still won't admit he's ever made any mistakes, and every other word he utters is "global".
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Dean: "The difference is even then our essential liberties were not stolen from us in such a way as this ZanuLabour party has- 42 days detention without charge? What the hell happened to due process? Innocent till proven guilty?"
--------------------------------
It is slowly being changed to accommodate the EU model of Corpus Juris. This means that the EPP (European Public Prosecutor) can incarcerate someone for months without charge merely because he thinks they might have committed an offence or might commit an offence. It appears that there is no limit to the number of 3-month extensions. This practise was outlawed in Britain more than 300 years ago as part of the Habeus Corpus Act (1689) which is now incorporated into Britain's Bail Acts.
This negates the traditional Habeas Corpus system of innocent until PROVEN guilty.
Under proposed EU criminal procedures, there could be a theoretical unlimited detention without trial.
As there is currently in the UK with the secret Family courts. They operate a system of guilty until proven innocent.
If a parent has had their child removed, and they choose to publicise aspects of the case as they were presented in court, then they may be lawfully detained until such time as they agree to not publicise the case, no matter how long that takes.
More and more areas of law are falling under Copus Juris.
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Sorry kaybraes, but when did Pakistan become a war zone? The Ethiopian was arrested in Karachi which on Pakistan’s coast, quite a distance from Afghanistan. Rightly or wrongly this gentleman has been released without charge, meaning while his actions are definitely suspicious the US military could not find enough evidence to try him in a closed court. This tells us one of two tings, either the man is innocent or that the might of US military intelligence and the CIA are not capable of finding incriminating information.
Personally I also don’t want the gentleman in the country, but getting basic details correct, like where he was captured and assuming guilt when trained interrogators/torturers couldn’t needs to be addressed.
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Gordon Brown is no Robert Walpole. The latter is considered as one of our greatest prime ministers.
I remember being taught about Lord North (he who lost the American colonies) at school, including the phrase at the end of this piece:
North's blundering and indecision worsened an already difficult situation, and by 1782 it was clear that the outcome was likely to be a disaster. North has since become the yardstick for prime ministerial mediocrity, with later PMs being criticised as 'the worst since Lord North'. (source BBC)
So for the next few hundred years, as our descendants struggle to pay off Gordon's debts, future generations will describe their current PM as the worst since Gordon Brown.
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Bloggers
Don't mention Spencer Percivall the moderators don't like it, I thought it was on topic myself.....
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Headline in today's Daily Telegaph:
Desperate Brown plans 500 billion bank gamble.
500 billion here, 500 billion there, it soon adds up to serious money.
This is all happening with almost no parliamentary debate or scrutiny. Yet we're going to have to live with these decisions for years, and perhaps decades, to come.
A question for Gordon's supporters (yes, that's you hiding over there): Is there no upper limit to public debt? Why stop at a few trillion? If 2 trillion is good then is 4 trillion better?
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"Discretion prevents me from adding more"
When it comes to NuLabour and the PM you are so discrete as to be invisible.
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Oh and one thing Walpole couldn't tell the hacks of the day:
"It started in America!"
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Nick
The consensus on this blog is that are dealing with the wrong issues.
Are you after another position in the BBC or have you been gagged? For God's sake the last 6 months should have been a wonderful opportunity for a thinking man like yourself to really enlighten and inform your listeners and readers.
You should be rowing up the political river pointing out the eddies and whirlpools, instead of which you paddling up the side creak and getting stuck in the sludge.
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@ 95, I watched that lamentable performance by the supposedly BRILLIANT English version of Barak Obama (as some have dubbed him)
Dire does not do his woeful performance justice.
He claims his ability is his gift of the gab.... That is commonly referred to as Bull-Sh.....g.
The gift of the gab is usually employed to make up for a total lack of knowledge and expertise. So he really is a typical MP really.
He really went to Harvard? Would that be Harvard elementary school? It cannot possibly be the prestigious university surely? Or is this the result of "positive discrimination"? Giving opportunities to people who have no ability to deserve those opportunities, but they are the "right" colour.
If this is not a clear demonstration of what is wrong with prejudice and discrimination, I do not know what is!
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So now it finally comes out...
Why the government reacted so violently to the Unite suggestion that an auto industry company was on the verge of closure.
It's Leyland Daff owned by none other than our lovely friend; Oleg Deripaska...close confdant of the business secretary Lord Mandleson of Foy.
This government couldn't get more cack handed if it tried...they are damned at every turning.
Call an election.
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"When chairing the Cabinet Gordon Brown sits in front of a portrait of Walpole"
He also sits behind a clock. Tick! Tick! Tick! It reminds him that we need more tick and less conservative tock.
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Gordon's new propaganda web-site telling us what he is doing to save us from the recession is hilarious!
I particularly loved his introduction:
"Many people are asking how we found ourselves in this economic crisis, how we are going to get out of it and what the future is going to hold. I want to explain to people how this crisis, which started in America, has developed - and reassure people that Britain can come out of this stronger and fairer than before.
How did we get into this....... America of course!
http://www.realhelpnow.gov.uk/
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#104 johnharris66
Good post re North. Brown could have more than that in common with him - he'll likely be remembered as the PM who caused Scotland to leave the union.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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The official line is that Mandy will not be involved in the LDV loan decision. Anyone whoe believes that has a very optimistic view on mankind, at best. Mandelson most likely is clever enough to communicate internally about this case only verbally and face to face. No emails, scribbled notes or phone records. But, in addition to Mandy's yaughting experiences, Mandy's former aid Wegg-Prosses is now a Moscow-based consultant counting you-know-who as one of his clients.
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extremesense 69
Hi there,
To a certain extent I agree with you about Brown having a scorched earth policy. To be quite honest if I was Cameron I would not want to win the next election because he will be blamed if the economy does not pick up.
Cameron has to make the case at the time of the election, as Obama did, that it will take at least a generation to correct this mess. There will be some unpopular and hard decisions to make whoever gets in Government. Britain will have to be changed socially and economically for anyone to succeed.
As to Cameron being like Blair, I never voted for Blair, I never liked or trusted him, so I would not even consider voting for Cameron if I thought he was the same.
Strangely enough although I am a cynic like you, I trust Cameron, I think he has passion for his country and belief in a better society for Britain. You can only go on instinct, but when I saw him at the Conservative Conference on TV, I got a sense that he was angry at how Britain had been destroyed. He took all the different issues and said what he would do about each if he got into Government. I have to say I was impressed.
If nothing else, I think a new Government would give hope and confidence to the public, so for me it cannot come quick enough.
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@magic_2010 (4:15pm)
What a magic comment; and so true!!
Brown now stresses the world GLOBAL so many times because he wants to hide his own errors, such as running a budget deficit when the living was easy (almost -3% in 2005/6) and letting UK banks sell125%-plus UK mortgages to UK individuals.
Cheeriu
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110. At 4:25pm on 23 Feb 2009, purpleDogzzz wrote:
@ 95, I watched that lamentable performance by the supposedly BRILLIANT English version of Barak Obama (as some have dubbed him)
...He really went to Harvard? Would that be Harvard elementary school? It cannot possibly be the prestigious university surely
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Or maybe he is like Dolly Draper who studied IN Berkeley, as opposed to AT Berkeley, but used the toilets at UC Berkeley once or twice.
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113. At 4:36pm on 23 Feb 2009, jonathan_cook wrote:
Gordon's new propaganda web-site telling us what he is doing to save us from the recession is hilarious!
I particularly loved his introduction:
"Many people are asking how we found ourselves in this economic crisis, how we are going to get out of it and what the future is going to hold. I want to explain to people how this crisis, which started in America, has developed - and reassure people that Britain can come out of this stronger and fairer than before.
How did we get into this....... America of course!
http://www.realhelpnow.gov.uk/
===
I like his analogous explanation as to how he is fixing the problem:
"Perhaps the simplest way to explain it is by talking about electricity. Just like everything gets difficult for you in your house when the electricity stops flowing, everything gets difficult in the economy when the banking system stops working.
So it was really important to save banks, because that underpins everything, just like electricity does in your house. But once the credit crunch and the banking collapse had done such damage to the system, it wasn't enough for us to flip the trip switch and hope the electricity would start flowing again.
That's why we've brought forward our plans to inject more money into the economy through cutting taxes and increasing public expenditure - we're sending more voltage around the electricity supply to keep the house in good order."
===
Not a very good idea!
You could also end up with either, burning out the wiring on the appliance, fusing the circuit, burning down the house or killing yourself or others!
Says it all really!!
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Hold the programme Nick, some new information has just come to light...
It was recently discovered that in a meeting of his cabinet aboard a ship in Portsmouth that Robert Walpole launched a pamphlet service blaming the Southsea Bubble on the New Colonies.
History never records why he failed to see the ships bringing the bad news gathering on the horizon (at least Nelson could blame that on putting the telescope to his "wrong" eye some years later).
Unfortunately for Walpole, the penny post wouldn't be established for nearly 120 years afterwards.
Faced with waiting an inordinate time to be able to deliver the news to his electorate, he turned to the services of a faithful messenger, but one who turned out to be unreliable and went absent without leave on numerous occasions and the news was never comunicated.
Funny how history has a way of repeating itself.
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I've just been reading Gordons new websites.
He reaffirms his statement about asking for more checks on the banks for the last ten years, and it seems to be aimed at someone with the mental age of around 5 - perhaps thats a typical labour voter these days.
I'll give him one thing - the man's got some front!
So now there's lies, damn lies, and government websites.
With all the repeating words - 'global', 'america' etc, hopefully google will blacklist it for keyword stuffing.
And from the bottom of the front page it doesn't look as if Gordon can even write his own name.
Ah well, I can't imagine anyone bothering to actually read the damn thing.
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Nick,
Given that you went on "survival training" recently and with respect your lack of blogging on the political subject-du-jour....... is there something we are not being told?
I have to ask the question - are you being replaced as BBC political editor?
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This is very poor Nick, this does you little credit.
Your beloved Labour have messed up big time not even you can find any positive spin for the last week or so.
Not a peep about Jaquie Smith nothing at all about the national debt now in the trillions and rising, nothing about the poll ratings.barely a mention of how many businesses are failing or how the promised guarantees are have been delayed (again)
Lets not even whisper the word repossesion
No all we get is a History lesson!
Very very poor
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#111 ... surely you must have realised that it's now too close for Mandy to change his Summer holiday plans ... If Deripaska withdraws the invitation to the yacht on the Black Sea, the Business Secretary may be forced to spend his hols at Southwold with Gordon..
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@115 Ever closer circles then.
So we are to believe that they'll start off by saying no, and then hope that the union can garner enough support to overturn that judgement, so the government will cave in and proffer the cash
If it is a viable business, however, it is surely something that the policies that Crash has been spouting should be suitable for. Maybe they just need a hand holding through the bureaucracy?
Why not just let it go bust and then the management buy out will be of the assets and ring force the debt with presumably RBS.
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Nick,
The South Sea Bubble cannot be compared to the mess that Brown has wrought on us all.
The South Sea bubble could be compared to the Tulip bubble that the Dutch experienced, but to try and absolve Brown by attempting to link his 'personal' mistakes, with those made by private investors 300 years ago is ridiculous.
I would suggest that as the BBC Political editor, you should concentrate on the huge amount of stories that you have forgot to blog on over the past two weeks.
Shockingly poor journalism by you Nick, if you do not wish to blog on 'current' political stories, I suggest that you let someone else have a go.
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Downing Steet burns while the BBC fiddles.
Call an election !
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I too seemed to have logged on to the wrong blog thinking this was a political blog. Silly me.
This on the day when the Guardian splashes a front page warning over a 'summer of rage' which many political journalists feel is highly significant and raises fundamental issues with a "fag-end of a government in collapse".
http://theorangepartyblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/can-police-quell-protests-by-people.html
And on top of that the most shameful and blatant party political propaganda has surfaced with the government using taxpayers cash to prop up its discredited economic policies on another of its websites.
http://theorangepartyblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/real-spin-behind-realhelpnow.html
Sorry Nick, but your article, however noble in intention, smacks of New Labour spin. 'Bubbles come and bubbles go' could have been written by Brown.
It's part of an on going new narrative for the government in which it seems you are complicit.
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So, no aid for LDV, presumably because it would lead to uncomfortable questions with regard to Mandelson and his dealings with Deripaska.
The golem isn't interested in the "people", he's only interested in saving his own political skin.
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yellowbelly1959 @95,
Thanks - very amusing clip. The minister in question is living proof of the failure of positive discrimination.
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Nick
I've heard that Cabinet Ministers now cheekily refer to meetings at the PM's residence as I'm Drowning sheet!!
Could you check it out with your insiders? Hilarious if true.
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On balance, Ramsay MacDonald might be a better model. A deeply moral man, steeped in Labour tradition, caught in a situation he could not cope with, and with (at core) a very conventional world-view.
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HarryPagetFlashman @105
This incumbent's demise is more likely to be similar to Viscount Castlereagh's.
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Nick..methinks you are bedazzled.
It would seem that you have lost interest in your prime role..i.e. BBC Political Editor..and see your future in programme making.
If so..could you explain this to your boss,so he can find an alternative hack to cover the political stories that really matter.
Many thanks...
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For years, scientists were in broad agreement that the weakest substance known to humanity was the sweet tea brewed by my equally sweet mother.
Until now.
Those same scientists are now frantically revising their opinions in light of this latest entry from Nick.
In comparison to this newslog, my mam's tea could be used to successfully rev up the Large Hadron Collider.
Nick, seriously, have you been on the moon for the last week? So much has happened and yet....this????
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I think "Prime Ministers" is totally irrevelant with the strange collection of ministers we have for our sins. Far more suitable, would be an earlier history, concerning the Romans. Robert Graves' "I, Claudius". Mandy would make a perfect Caligula, or maybe David Milliband would suit that role. Jack Straw could be the horse who became a senator. Hazel Blears would be delightful as a wayward daughter, whilst Harriman would be a fearful Livia. I dare not make any more suggestions, lest I be moderated off and offered a poisoned fig on the vine.
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#132 ... and who lost his nerve when faced with a crisis and made his party unelectable for 15 years
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New poll from ICM for the Guardian:
CON 42(+2) LAB 30(+2) LD 18(-4)
It finds that only 28% of voters think Brown is the leader most likely to attract support to Labour on polling day. Meanwhile, 63%, think the party would do better with another leader.
Even Labour supporters are not convinced. Among people who voted for the party in 2005, 45% pick Brown and 49% another leader. Among people who still stay they intend to vote Labour next time the split is 48% to 47%
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95. At 3:16pm on 23 Feb 2009, yellowbelly1959
ROFL...... Good post, nice clip.
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130. MaxSceptic
Good point.
Shall we try posting it on Labour List, wonder if itll get trashed?
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kingloneranger @44
If Frank Field was my MP, I'd vote for him. He's hardworking and eminently sensible. On his blog a while ago, he floated the idea that people who lost their jobs should be able to claim increased JSA based on the years they'd worked and paid NI. This seems very fair to me and an encouragement for people to work.
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Mr Robinson?
THE LDV SAGA WOULD BE A BETTER TOPIC
INCLUDING MANDYS INVOLVEMENT?
PESTO HAS HIS HANDS FULL!
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CarrotsneedaQUANGO2 @141
A 'Crazy' idea ;-)
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Lloyd George. A rogue, but unlike the present peasants, a man with charm.
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And so the disaster that is the Royal Mail's pension scheme is another burden heading for the tax payer. This Golem in Downing Street has lost touch with the reality of money - he seems to think it grows on trees the way he throws it around.
But, then again, he's never had a proper job in his whole life, never owned a car, he's just never lived in the real world.
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Nick,
I can only assume there's more respect (maybe money) to be gained in the BBC if you become a "commentator" rather than a "political editor"...
Pity, really. There have been many occasions when I've read your stuff with a bit of interest (and listened to TV & radio output with a feeling that maybe, deep down, there is an independent-minded journalist trying to get out...).
It's beyond my ken to understand why the Brits don't do what the French would normally do and march on Downing Street to lay seige to the man who broke the UK.
Brown blathers on about some "grand deal". He would not agree to proposals from the EU for a broad controlling organisation for pan-European regulation of financial institutions. (Actually, I wouldn't have wanted that too much, as the EU gave us the current UK fishing industry, allowed France to bailout a bank that blew it's money while wanting to get involved with Hollywood, etc., etc.,...)
Globalisation is not new.
The "Old Empire" (built by people from all parts of the islands) showed pink bits around the globe, so that the "sun never set" on the old Empire. That was about as global as the UK will ever be.
The reach of US financial, commercial and political clout was around for a few decades.
What I can never recall was a UK government that simply ignored the highly-visible and highly-avoidable accumulation of personal and corporate indebtedness we have seen over the last 12 years. Allowed by which Chancellor and subsequent Prime Minister?
The old Prudence was a complete fallacy. The "new" Prudence is an affront to people over the age of twelve, who can reasonably be expected to remember things...
Northern Rock was effectively treated as a company in administration for a while. Now, after they closed down mortgage offerings to their existing customers in order to pay back monies the administrators (UK government) wanted, Brown has decided they should start lending for mortgages again. He says GBP14BILLION. Do NR have that amount of disposable cash? Or will good old Gord borrow that and "inject" it? How much will it cost Gord to borrow? How much will NR charge on top of that, before money finds its way to supplicants?
I will believe that Brown has turned the page and started to understand the real world when he bans any new addition to the public service headcount. (Every new "civil servant" represents another new burden on his children, as well as mine. Short-term and even worse, long-term as the pension burden ticks up...)
I'll believe his commitment to a better future when he takes the axe to all those highly paid "advisors" swamping Whitehall. If Ministers aren't smart enough to think about things in a simple way, they are too dumb to be in power...
Nice to see that the "masterstroke" of bringing back Mandy means that his Minister can't get involved with a particular issue because he was too compromised by his actions while an EU Commissioner. Maybe we could claim a yacht as part-payment towards any bail out for a certain Russian's van company?
Maybe it's time for a quick popular vote to allow the ratification of any person nominated to such a lucrative and remote posting???? And maybe some public scrutiny as to why an "ex-commissioner" should be granted special payments to allow them to "transition" back into the real world?
Brussels is a nice city. Expensive, but you can get by on much less than the per diems paid to MEPs and Commissioners.
I still haven't noticed a single comment from Brown to admit that he allowed banks and other institutions to lend far too much to people. At the time, he brushed aside any criticism because there was so much "profit" to be taxed.
What did he do with the tax-take?
PFI - or whatever it's called now? Debt for our kids. Awful project negotiation. ID cards? Useless garbage that nobody really believes will stop criminal intent in its tracks.
If Big Gord came out and said that every new law or regulation had to be backed up by a personal commitment by ministers and MPs that their life savings and pension funds would be used as a very small guarantee for the possible costs to tax-payers, I'd be voting for him tomorrow.
But that's the way it works in the world of small business.
What's the point? If you were "born right", knowing "the truth", you'll never get it.
Brown has been a disaster.
Maybe I'll have to change my blog identity. I was always willing to accept stuff from any person or party. Just lost any notion of "truth" from this lot a while back. There are comments about the lack of funds flowing towards the automotive industry. Funny, but the Government released GBP NN BILLIONS to the banks over a weekend. So it can't be that hard? Or were there too many "New Labour-boys" to resist?
Disgusted.
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I believe the first person to take the title of Prime Minister was Campbell Bannerman. The title was first legally recognised in 1917. Walpole was dead before both of those.
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Stupid thing is that I actually like the idea of the injection of some private thinking into the Royal Mail/Post Office.
Just wish that this administration (Blair/Brown) had not decided to gradually strip away the offerings that those services were permitted to make.
I can't believe that any owner of a business (Royal Mail/Post Office is a limited comany 100 percent owned by the state - US!!!) would deliberately close down possible revenue streams - and prohibited new ideas - while claiming the business was no longer viable. In a normal environment, that would seem like fraud.
But, of course, Blair and Brown didn't give a good goddam if rural post offices closed down. They were probably in Tory or Lib/Dem territory.
Funny how New Labour Ministers were so outspoken about the need to retain services in their own constituencies...
Could have become world-class. Blair dumped a load of cost (from memory GBP600Million) on the Mail/PO group, as he didn't wish to follow through with inherited Tory plans.
Can't blame him, of course. He's too busy making money.
I guess that Gordon went to meet the Pope, to ask him how he advised Tony to leave office when he did, before the bubble burst. And enquire if there will ever be a good chance for him (Gord) to make a respectable exit.
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There are lots of complicated terms flying about - quantitative easing and fiscal stimulus and deleveraging - there are plenty of words people are getting used to hearing on the TV, but which don't actually illuminate what's happened at all.
Perhaps the simplest way to explain it is by talking about electricity. Just like everything gets difficult for you in your house when the electricity stops flowing, everything gets difficult in the economy when the banking system stops working.
So it was really important to save banks, because that underpins everything, just like electricity does in your house. But once the credit crunch and the banking collapse had done such damage to the system, it wasn't enough for us to flip the trip switch and hope the electricity would start flowing again.
That's why we've brought forward our plans to inject more money into the economy through cutting taxes and increasing public expenditure - we're sending more voltage around the electricity supply to keep the house in good order.
How did we get here?
The spread of sub-prime: despite record house-building, more people wanted homes than were for sale and they were prepared to borrow more to get their homes. In America people were encouraged to buy homes with cheap credit and low starter interest rates, but salespeople made no proper assessment of what level of lending they could afford to repay.
As US house prices fell and the US economy slowed the number of people defaulting on their mortgage started to rise, and once other lenders realised that was happening, the system started to panic, as everyone was trying to work out how many other risky assets the other banks held. That's what first started to spread fear through the system early last year.
Banks became global borrowers: many banks started packaging lots of mortgages up into bundles and selling them mainly to other banks - what the experts call securitised credit. That can work as long as there is money available to borrow, but when that dries up they've got nothing to pass on to people.
People had no idea how many mortgages would default, and a very active market for these assets dried up, leaving banks like Northern Rock in real trouble.
Because of a lack of due diligence at the start and because mortgages had been packaged up and sold right across the world there was real confusion about what these bundles were worth. People had no idea how many mortgages would default, and a very active market for these assets dried up, leaving banks like Northern Rock in real trouble.
That's what led to the liquidity crisis - the drying up of ready cash for the families and businesses who needed it.
It was made all the more difficult to fix because sometimes these investments had been made and bought by individual bankers without them telling their boards, their auditors or the FSA - so nobody who should have had a clear picture of what was going on really did.
The system seized up: the money in your bank isn't just the money which people like you have put into it. Behind the scenes is a series of relationships between banks who all lend to one another, and the whole system works on trust - the confidence that if one bank lends money to another one week, they will be able to borrow in turn if they have particular drains on their reserves the next.
When a big name like Lehmans failed everyone was sort of frozen by fear. For most banks the safest option was to hoard their cash and not lend it to other banks or even their customers, and that has a knock-on effect on the relationship between your bank and you. If your bank isn't sure it can borrow to and lend from other banks, it's not going to be sure it can lend to you.
The failure of regulation: Our financial services sector has brought a lot of wealth to the country and it's been good for businesses more generally, but it's also a sector that moves really fast and whose companies and firms have a global reach, so there's always a time-lag between an innovation in financial services and the ability of a national regulator to make and impose rules that cover it.
Regulation to date has focused at the bank level and at the country level, but what we saw was not the failure of banks in isolation but the failure of global markets themselves. This has led to many lessons on regulation and on how to coordinate regulatory efforts across countries to supervise the global financial system itself.
I've been saying for the last ten years that we need global coordination ... it's only really when things reach a crisis point that people are ready to take bold action together.
I've been saying for the last ten years that we need better regulation and global coordination - after forming the unified regulator for Britain, the FSA, we arranged the Financial Stability Forum for the world - but we all know that processes which involve lots of countries and organisations signing up take a lot of time, and it's only really when things reach a crisis point that people are ready to take bold action together.
Britain's ideas for how we rebuild the financial system so it works in the interests of ordinary people and not financiers are getting a global hearing and other countries are following our lead.
The last ten years: we are so much more interdependent and connected than ever before. It's not just something that's happened in banking - it's everything from the amount of its income Tesco now gets from its stores in other countries to the kids here who play Xbox with strangers in Korea to the fact people are texting photos from family weddings from their phones to relatives on the other side of the world.
The above is technically known as b******s
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Nick has a deputy
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7906177.stm
Someone else who is willing to say that the "writing is on the walls"
Does that mean you are on the way out Nick? I'd be sorry if you were.
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Not sure if I've offended by resubmitting a posting. If so, sorry.
Nice to know that the owner of a company has allowed the deficit of a pension fund to soar out of control.
Shame that it's the Royal Mail/Post Office.
Owned by? US. WE, the tax-payers. Held in trust by the Government of the day. That means New Labour for 12 years.
Bit hard to take, when Brown & Co berate companies for not doing the right thing by their employees, while Blair - no doubt driven by Brown - ignored the problems with the PO pension scheme.
I wouldn't let Brown run a fish and chip shop. And certainly wouldn't have wanted Blair as the sales and marketing director.
Why the heck do we put up with these really bright and intelligent - but completely useless and impractical - people run our lives?
I could probably name 25 people with absolutely no political background, who would be able to fill cabinet posts and do a decent job of delivering (NOT just yapping about) things that could make a bit of difference.
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Right. Stage 2 of the LDV is to apply the Lamont offer to businesses wishing to leave the UK.
1. Immediately freeze the company's accounts and assets and put it into protective administration.
2. Settle all taxation, redundancies, salaries, bonuses and liabilities, including all imputed liabilities for pay in lieu of leave, share options, and buy back all shares not held by Deripaska, in strict priority according to the liquidation rules. Finished stock should be sold off at the best available price to support this, and any remaining cash transferred to Deripaska as the purchase price for the remaining assets.
3. The company should then be handed over to the management with start-up cash. There should be no purchase price from Deripaska, for the reasons stated above.
And quickly.
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Any action can only work if flashmobbed, but they'll be watching that site like hawks.
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Ay yo rah get the heat
Word is born, your kids miss you when your gone
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@153 running a bath without supervision seems to be beyond his competancies
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#147 Good post, nice to have you back here again!
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Seems that LDV wouldn't be in the position it's now in if it had won an MOD contract that the govt awarded to the Austrians for an inferior product.
...........such are the 'benefits' of being in the EU!!
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2009/02/british-jobs-for-austrian-workers.html
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""Politicians would have us believe that it was all so much easier before the era of globalisation, 24 hour news and widespread cynicism. There was, they suggest, a golden age in which politics was not dominated by talk of spin, sleaze or splits in parties, when it focussed on policies not personalities and when our leaders had the time and the space to take considered decisions.""
well I could've told you that, though I am a historian so maybe I'm not a usual case
it's always been there, politics has always been a dirty game, just look at Disraeli, I think the 'golden age' image probably refers to the edwardian era through to the war when Britain really became stiff upper lipped
All that is different now is that it is mass produced, rather than just for the educated and powerful few who could read
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Great cartoon from David Brown in today's The Independent:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/the-daily-cartoon-760940.html
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fragmeister 151
If you are going to write on behalf of the Government I would suggest you do not use the words'' we have done'' all the time or ''we have been calling for'' people are going to find out.
The electricity you speak of had a safety cut-out device missing, otherwise, it could easily have been switched off by the FSA instead of being allowed to short circuit.
So its all started in America, and we had no credit bubble of our own. You could walk down any high street in Britain and see offers for 125% mortgages, but Brown, the treasury, and FSA had no idea at all. Is that credible, I think not.
Brown and his FSA formed by his act of 1997 allowed the market to go totally unchecked leading to a riot in the city.
Why if the FSA had no idea what was happening and it was all those banks in America, did the FSA issue 29 warnings about the state of our banks and then do absolutely nothing about it.
You say the failure of the FSA has been good for wealth and business in this country, I ask then were has all the money gone. Why do we have so much Government debt, mortgages failing, and business in crisis.
May I aslo add that it is not a world situation, a lot of the EU countries like Germany and France do not allow mortgages without a 30% deposit. Their banks have been infected by America and Britain.
Brown has not been calling for tighter regulation, just the opposite, in 2006 he was calling for light touch regulation.
In closing we are not leading the world in anything, Brown is seen by the world as a failed PM, in charge of a country which may very well end up with its begging bowl at the IMF.
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kaybraes 87
Exactly right, we pay 160 thousand pounds for this Ethiopian to have a private jet to bring him back to Britain, where he does not belong. When he gets here I suppose he will be treated as some kind of hero, live off the tax payer and get compensation. Not to mention how much he will be paid by newspapers.
It pays to be a suspected terrorist does it not.
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If ever there will be an interesting topic to pick on, it is today following Obama's intention to halve the budget deficit by 2013.
The obvious question to ask Brown, Darling, Mandy and Campbell is whether they have similar intentions. The answer will of course be yes.
To which the follow-up question should be how? Lower spending, higher taxes or a combination of both?
Let's try and get some more realism out of the Downing Street machine! (seen those NIESR and European Commission forecasts for debt/GDP?!)
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/feb/23/icm-poll-february-2009
Maybe Crash will read the papers today
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For once I find myself in total agreement with the Labour rebels within the Labour party. I do not believe the Post Office should be partly privatized.
We will end up selling the good part of the business and keeping the liability of the pensions. This will be such a heavy burden for the tax payer.
Despite the problems, we should find a way to keep the Post Office as it is.
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Here's one citizen's take (mine!) on the current Prime Minister, our Supreme Leader Brown.
I'm clear that I'm in the professional, middle-class category (or a member of the "Coping Class" as one newspaper categorises me). I'm 51 years old. Throughout my life I've always looked upon street protestors as either straightforward law-breakers or, at best, people with too much time and enthusiasm for their "chosen subject".
Now, for the first time in my life, I'm itching to take to the streets. Our political process has collapsed - destroyed by the Labour Party's contempt for the Palace of Westminster and democracy itself, by a decade of ineffectual political opposition and, not least, by career politicians in it for all they can get. We've been conned and stuffed all in one go.
Those of us who have the audacity to consider ourselves decent, honest, hard-working taxpayers have been taken for the mother of all rides. It is both outrageous and positively alarming the extent to which our political elite has been nigh-on criminally negligent in the fulfilment (not) of its duties to the ordinary people of this country.
It is not exagerating to say that we (individuals, businesses and the country) are staring ruin in the face. All this because our politicians have spent at least the last decade obsessed with their own desire for, and trappings of power: nothing else.
And the biggest culprit of all - the person who has the most to answer for in all of this - has been the arrogant, incompetent, dysfunctional, machiavellian antithesis of a statesman: Mr Gordon Brown Esq.
What's your take in this man, Mr Robinson?
If/when I join the Met Police's kind offer of a "summer of rage on the streets", I'll be making it clear who I'm raging at.
What a shambles; who would have thought it, when we listened to and watched the Labour sheisters inveigling their way into power under the slogan "Things can only get better ...". Yeah, right.
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Nick,
we now know that the labour party manifesto contained the promise not to privatize the Royal mail. Now they are saying that they only want to privatize part of it, many labour MPs apparently will not be voting in favour of the proposal.
In the meantime the liberals and conservatives apparently in favour of full privatization, or no privatization, I am unsure as to their positions. Accordingly, this could be the end game for Gordon Brown.
Labour MPs are quite entitled to actually vote against this proposal. Conservative and liberals are entitled to vote against on the basis that it was not in the manifesto, and also not full privatization. Accordingly, they can morally vote against. The bill is defeated.
At this point there can be a vote of no confidence in the government, end game, Gordon has to go to the country. Either that or he is more of a dead parrot than ever. This is the opportunity to end this most inglorious parliament, it is time to go.
Just as in your programme where you go through the history of former PMs, then at some time in the future another historian will be writing about Gordon Brown, the man who I regard with Tony Blair as the men who have destroyed the UK.
Why, because do you seriously think that there is no coincidence between the march outside parliament by soldiers who returned from Iraq months ago. At the same time an individual is returned to this country from the American base in Cuba where he has been held in detention. When he has been sent to countries where he has allegedly been tortured with our knowledge. No injunctions can stop the truth coming out.
The government had the chance to come clean, when Blair left and Obama was elected. The opportunity has been missed, there is no point in any more lies Nick. When will Browns picture be on the wall of Downing Street.
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@167
The Post Office needs new equipment and new work practices to save itself.
The government has said it will not provide the money as a loan, will not allow it to raise finance itself, and so must allow itself to be bought by someone else.
Meanwhile the Unions seem to be fighting every step of the way. A few good questions to ask the organisation is what is average length of service? How many disciplinary actions result in termination of employment? How does this scale to UK averages?
Many jobs will go from within the organisation, and all of the pension fund will have to be shored up by the tax payer whilst the profits will be repatriated to the business that is buying into the Post Office.
If the Post Office is to remain under the "protection" of nationalisation it just needs someone with enough "round objects" to actually force through the reforms. Unfortunately Politicians can't do such things as they are not "popular"
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" A hostile media" ???
the sycophantic media has betrayed the UK , it has allowed much to go unchallenged and continues so to do.
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Looking at Nick's blog rate recently I suspect he believes the old mantra - if you can't find something nice to say about Gordon Brown, best not to say anything at all.
Come on Nick - the world is falling apart, there is damning news everyday on the independent news channels about the home secretary's misuse of public funds, the additional money and concessions for the banks and a raft of other issues, and you have nothing to contribute....
Silence is consent and saying nothing shows bias -
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163 - My comment is at the end of my previous post. The rest is laughable propaganda lifted almost straight from Flash's new website telling us it will be all right.
Personally, I don't believe a word.
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StrongholdBarricades 170
I absolutely agree with you, but I really do not want to see another British business such as the Post Office, falling into foreign hands.
It is really another reason for getting this Government out, because of their inability to make changes because they are so much in bed with the unions.
You can be sure that if Labour try to sell off part of the Post Office, it will be a bad deal for the tax payer.
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One day, Nick, you will realise that you had the opportunity to report first hand on a downfall of poetic tragedy.
You will regret not stepping back and considering writing something more insightful.
Gordon Brown is a flawed man who is being laid bare for all to see. He is our Prime Minister at a moment of utter catastrophe, and he is poorly equipped to comprehend or affect the outcome facing him and us.
He is the wrong man, in the wrong place, at the wrong time.
The pride and arrogance shown by him are tragic flaws of Shakespearean magnitude. His inability to understand his own plight is Wagnerian in its conception.
And yet, you who are best placed to analyse the man himself, you cannot offer us more than comparison of coincidences to a long-dead predecessor?
I could cry at times, Nick.
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PS Excuse the histrionics, get out there and do some proper reporting Nick!
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#166. At 08:12am on 24 Feb 2009, StrongholdBarricades wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/feb/23/icm-poll-february-2009
Maybe Crash will read the papers today
I believe that this and other polls show us that:
1) The public have, at last, woken up to the fact that the recession happened on Brown's watch and that he is partially culpable.
I also think that there is a growing groundswell of opinion that the State's powers are becoming far too overweening - but this is secondary.
2) The Conservative support is benefiting from an 'anyone but Brown' mindset but a large majority still do not know what the Conservatives would do to resolve the credit crisis.
We deserve better.
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Nick
Why has it taken Vicky Young to tell us the truth you are trying to gloss over??
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7906177.stm
Nero rather than Walpole should be the text of the day - you and McCavity are fiddling while Rome burns!
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Hey ho!
Referred to moderators-trying to think why?
No swearing, nothing defamatory-valid comments only about Russian gas crisis, yachts, Rbs write downs for a foreign businessman's failing business and how our government is being asked to help those who could fund support themselves by selling a few boats etc.
What, exactly, was the problem with this post?
Oh, maybe it was the suggestion that Nick's absence was study leave for this project-I called it 'Antique Prime Minister Show' and wondered when the book and film would be out.
As it was written in the small wee hours, I doubt if a poster referred it-moderators up to their tricks again.
Daft! I haven't said anything much more than others in this subject!
Hang on, I did mention global in a context that could have been misconstrued...maybe that was it!
So much for freedom of speech!
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This loathing of Brown is across the board. Of course Middle England (the parts of it not educaed and indoctrinated by universities into Labour support) will support parties (ANYTHING!) other than this NuLab shower.
However, yesterday I was talking to a very large group of labourers on a huge new apartment building site. When I asked them "what do YOU think of Gordon Brown?"
They shouted really loudly - he's a plonker etc and other unprintable expletives. They were vehemently against him apart from one very young man who said the problem is "global". He was shouted down by the others who said G was Chancellor over the last eleven years and ignored warnings so it IS his fault.
That said I asked them who they would vote for and, you know what, they were a mix of Conservative and the inevitable BNP. Change is a-coming.
(the young man said he doesn't vote anyway so no surprise there then. He voiced his displeasure at Thatcher's government taking away his free school milk! Hmm. Strange. No milk but plenty of beer in his family apparently).
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So why is "The Prime Ministers" not available on iPlayer?
I had a call while the programme was on and now I find I have to wait until 10:45pm on Sunday to listen to it.
You are employed by the BBC aren't you? (rather than by a nameless production company)
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The BBC is at it again. Tonight is to be the first all black episode of East Enders.
The Beeb on its knees apologising for Carol Thatcher saying GOLLIWOG in private perhaps?
You couldn't make it up could you?
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# 168 moraymint
Succintly put.
I'm in total agreement.
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Reading what Fredalo and others say it would look as though Brown is ripe for a takeover.
Who on earth would take over for the make over?
Harriet Harperson, Hazel Blears, Alan Johnson? Nah, surely not.
I am afraid it might be a man (sorry, "person") whom some are reporting as having a lot of political gravitas - Mandy.
Surely not? Tell me it isn't so. I will have to go and lie down in a darkened room.
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This is a very superficial comparison. Maybe the radio series will have more depth.
I just do not see Gordon Brown as a leader. Sure he is running around the world pontificating on economic issues but this is just hubris from his old job. He should be presenting the UK with a cunning plan!! One that crosses the various ministries and makes some credible sense. He should be leading and directing the orchestra, not playing lead fiddle (badly).
His personal qualities do not shout leader either. He comes across as arrogant and a bit of a bully. Just take PMQs. The personal attack is just about always on the last question when no response can be made. I do not get from him a sense of humility or, indeed integrity. He does not stick to his convictions or admit when he has made mistakes.
These are the aspects you should be looking at. You seem to be defining the person by the external events that occurred during their watch.
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Nick,
I have a new theory...........
... you are being really, really nice to Gordon Brown, because you want to convince him to do a major series of interviews - just like David Frost did with Nixon.
I'm guessing that you know that Gordon Brown is doomed and that you want to hold a series of interviews in which you allow him to finally nail his coffin shut?
Oh - if only..........
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I've just been looking at the real help now website and felt like punching the screen. Shameless pro-Gordon propaganda. The "how we got here" section is a masterclass in blame avoidance.
Having said that, the Obama version (recovery.com) isn't much better ;(
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fragmeister 173
I am so, so, sorry my only excuse is that I was so darn angry when I read it, I missed the last comment. I will try to be more careful in future.
Please take my sincerely apology.
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182#
Pat:
And??? Who cares?
I dont know exactly which East End this soap is based on but it sure as hell cant be the East End of London. Where are all the Bengali's in the soap version? Where is all the drug and knife crime? Where is the BNP element? No gangs in Walford? (not those pre-school chumps they had on a few months ago, incidentally)
Not since the late 1960's anyway... was this soap dreamed up by the BBC's Elstree mob watching re-runs of Lionel Bart's Oliver?
Chances are, regardless of the colour of the actors in it, it may be a bit more entertaining than the "all Dot Cotton" monologue there was a few months back. Brilliant though June Brown is, God it didnt half drag on......
Considering its shot about 6 weeks in advance I think you'll find the chances of there being a link between it and Carol Thatcher are slimmer than those between Gordon Brown and anything that has possibly gone wrong with the economy in the last 10 years. Seriously. If it was in the can 6 weeks ago, the story line would have been written about 3 months back, at least. Way before Carol T's faux pas.
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Apparently, in a 2 day hearing on the Lisbon Treat in the German Constitutional Court, the 'reporting judge' said: "One has to ask soberly: What competences are left with the Bundestag in the end?". Presumably, therefore, we should be asking "soberly" what competences will be left to our Parliament.
In reneging on the Manifesto promise to hold a referendum and pushing the Lisbon Treaty through Parliament perhaps Brown will be remebered as the last of our Prime Ministers and his ultimate epitaph will be that he was the Prime Ministeral turkey who voted for Christmas.
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Nick, Walpole didn't blatantly lie unlike Brown. How about questioning your hero Brown about when he said the 10p tax rate removal would not affect low paid workers (repeatedly). It transpires that he was told it would affect them a year before it was introduced and there are still 1 million low paid workers out of pocket !
How about his statement that the UK was best placed to survive the financial problems. It transpires every indepedent financial organisation says we are in the worst position.
Whiter than white? Smith,Balls,Cooper,Martin etc.
Transparency?
Referendum?
Education?
WMD?
Mendelson and the yacht?
Immigration?
etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.
How about you doing an informative piece of journalism instead of being part of the labour lie/spin machinery?
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This is getting ridiculous.. we have a Prime Minister loathed by his own party. We have an economy sinking down the tubes. We a governemnt reachng record levels of public disapproval.
Yet we just have to sit here and watch them spend even more of our future on saving a load of bankers.
Why can't RBS be allowed to go bust?
The savers and account holders are protected by the government already...
This is a farcical government without the political courage to either fully nationalise it or let it go bust. Just dither along hoping tha Obama will come up with something interesting to say on the economy.
The tragic charade that is Grodon Brown's premiership is unravelling by the second; he didn't save the bans at all, he didn't save the world either; the doesn't know whether it's a recession or a depression; his golden rules have been smashed to pieces; the tripartite structure has collapsed in infamy; all his bumbling initiatives are failing to get though to the real economy.
When are newlabour going to get off their backsides and get rid of him?
Call an election.
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1176, 178, 179#
Well said, good posts.
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You really couldn't make up the situation in this country, nor the ineptitude of the government in trying to handle it. remeber it was El Gordo himself who said this is no time for novices.
We now find that our nationalised banks might issue mortgages to new applicants, but at 90 percent of LTV and on low multiples of income. So far, so good. We then are lead to believe that these will have rates around 6 perecnt, as are a lot of other new mortgages. This makes a mockery of having interst rates (the bank rate) set at 1 percent, which causes depositors to be damaged, with no seeming benefit to borrowers. Which mighty fincancial brain thought that one up?
Now have splashed thousands of billions of pounds on proppong up banks, they can't find a few millions to sort out LDV. I really don't know whether to laugh or cry. Part of me says the owners (GAZ, owned by Meddlesome's mate Depiaska) should be footing the bill, but another says we need to keep people employed, and some remedy could be found. Who knows, maybe that's the idea, pull a rabbit out of the hat at the last minute.
So when we find that foreign owners of british companies can't maintain a british workforce when times are hard, what's the best thing to do? Of course, sell part of the post office to foreign owners. that way get some money which can then be paid as unemployment benefit to ex-postal workesr in the near future. And, to muddy the waters, have a statement that the pensions of all postal workers will be under threat if this master strategy is not allowed to proceed.
Who's in charge of this brilliant piece of business logic? None other than good old Meddlesome. Isn't life grand when you don't personally have to suffer any consequences?
Election or revolution - I wonder which will come first?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#186 Dorset Wurzel
You're right, Gordon Brown is appalling leadership material.
PMQs is when Brown is at his worst. You get to see all his insecurities and all his bluster to defend his personal frailties.
He cannot stop attacking the opposition because that is the only place that is left for him to safely reside.
If he were to talk actual policies, he would be forced to admit errors and mistakes which would mean damaging the poor ego within. Can't have that.
The man is on the edge, and he's taking us with him.
The entire Labour Party is at his mercy because they have allowed him to systematically stifle and remove any rival who showed an ounce of leadership.
Look at the leadership of the Labour Party at present, they're all flawed or inadequate in so many ways.
They have a few older hands on the backbenches who could do a good job, but nobody who represents the next generation in any inspiring way.
It's a sorry state of affairs for the country.
I do agree with those who bemoan the lack of choice in politics at present.
However, what can you do against someone like Brown? He has warped an entire political party in order to become PM. And that has, in turn, warped our political system.
It was pretty rubbish anyway, but politics has reached an all-time low recently.
All in my opinion, of course.
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fragmeister 173
Mine 189
So much for being more careful in the future, that should read, sincere apology.
Sorry.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Fubar, you are probably right about the script being written weeks ago, sorry.
However, the question remains:
WHY?
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Did Robert Walpole rig by-elections in Scotland?
Did Robert Walpole bankrupt the country, and blame it on someone else, whilst taking the credit during the preceding boom?
Did Robert Walpole back out of calling an election he thought he'd comfortably win, and then have the cheek to write a book called "Courage"?
Was Robert Walpole a few shillings short of a pound?
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flamepatricia
"Global Warming"W - er what IS that actually? Snowstorms for two weeks?"
Are you still banging on about this? It's as simple as you are....global warming does not mean less snow. Please do some research if you are confused.
The earth's climate will become more unpredictable as the levels of emissions in our climate increase, and this will lead to hotter summers and cooler winters.
But I know it's all a game to you, and you'd rather pay 1p less tax in the pound than halt the damage to our earth. That's because you are narrow minded, and don't care for the future generations.
It's a shame because your other arguments are quite good, but you again bring this subject up and show yourself to be a couple of pence short of a pound.
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My difficulty with some of the comments is this, what is it you expect Cameron, Clegg or any opposition to say. Our situation is dire, what can they possibly promise to do that would make anyone feel better.
The truth is that whoever gets into Government will have to make difficult choices. They will have to cut spending and the ring fenced pensions in the public sector, they will have to reform the welfare state, get to grips with violence on the street, education which is failing, sort out unemployment and support the banking system. Along with this they will have no idea how much debt is off book with Brown. Our economy is virtually dead. We do not produce anything anymore we spend. I would not want to get into Government if I were the Conservatives or anyone else.
The truth may be unpalatable but Brown would have been much better if he had done nothing. The bank bail outs are a disaster, all the wrong choices have been made in my opinion. N. Rock should not have been nationalized it will prove too expensive for the tax payer. It should have been run agressively to bring its balance sheet back to health. Now he is forcing it to lend again another cost to the tax payer. HBOS the toxic bank should have been allowed to fall, and not merged with Lloyds. RBS should have been broken up to make it a much smaller bank.
No matter how long you go on propping up bad debt and toxic mortgages, adding to the tax payers bill, the end result will have to be that they fall. That is how N. Rock has been brought back to partial health, by losing its toxic debt. To do this N. Rock had record repossessions, called in bad debt on business loans and turned away mortgages which may go bad.
These short term measures by Brown for votes are making the whole situation worse and costing the tax payer a fortune.
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203 -
The earth's climate will become more unpredictable as the levels of emissions in our climate increase, and this will lead to hotter summers and cooler winters.
----------------------------------------------------
Does that sentence actually make any logical sense?
You surely can't state that something will become less predicable, and then predict what will happen because of this unpredictability?
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Dial Square:
The snow we had a few weeks ago was the sort of thing we had in my childhood. Apparently they equate it with 1930 (BEFORE I was born).
The climate has always changed you oaf!
I think people have become so hysterical and "intellectual" about so many things and perhaps you are one of them.
The so-called hole in the ozone layer closed up miraculously didn't it?
I do, however, think there are too many air flights, mining of the earth's crust above and under water and a bad use of some resources.
Doesn't mean to say we have to pay the huge salaries of thousands of scientists and politicians to invent something.
"Weapons of Mass Destruction" was a case of hoax in point and look what real devastation that caused.
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Just had a a look to see who the MP is for Washwood Heath where LDV are... Liam Byrne, who was on QT a couple of weeks back...
In November 2008 an 11-page memo written by Byrne entitled "Working With Liam Byrne" was leaked to the press.
In the memo, Byrne listed his demands from his staff, memorably including his requirement for a cappuccino on his arrival in the office, an espresso at 3 PM, and soup between 12:30 and 1 PM.
Byrne also instructed officials to tell him "not what you think I should know, but you expect I will get asked." He warns staff that they should "Never put anything to me unless you understand it and can explain it to me in 60 seconds... If I see things that are not of acceptable quality, I will blame you."
Conservative MP Philip Davies commented that "This is not a briefing note for civil servants, it’s a briefing note for slaves."
Although The Guardian described Liam Byrne as an "eager diva", a spokesman for Byrne commented that the memo had been written in 2006, and that "He is a highly efficient Minister but has become more flexible since then."
"Some days, he has his soup at 1.30pm."
Also... he's ex-Accenture and NM Rothschild as well. I remember Kelvin McKenzie bringing up the Rothschild's past on QT after which, the audience immediately became quite noticeably frostier towards Mr Byrne. Strange that. Cant figure out why.....
What was that about the Tories being the "natural" partners of the City, Munich?? :-)
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Gread advert, Nick!
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Just found this on Computer Weekly's site, although the Beeb have picked it up as well and also the common thread... politicians not listening to anything apart from the sounds of their own voices...
"MPs are increasing their use of technology to communicate with constituents, but the focus is still on top-down instead of interactive communication, a new report has said.
The Hansard Society surveyed 168 MPs on their use of the internet and social media, and found 92% use e-mail and 83% have a personal website. But just 11% of MPs blog, 6% use instant messaging to communicate with constituents and 23% use social networking sites like Facebook.
The report says that MPs' focus in the use of IT remains largely on promoting themselves, by reporting what they've been doing in the House of Commons or in their constituency.
"British MPs appear more motivated to use the internet as a tool for their own (and their parties') re-election, rather than as a tool for seeking views, true engagement or opinion forming," it said.
Attitudes to new technologies are also dependent on how large a majority an MP had at the last election. Those with smaller majorities are more likely to use IT to communicate.
Many MPs had found adoption of social media brings challenges, with workloads increasing, more training needed, more funding needed for better hardware, and the difficulty of establishing whether those they are communicating with are actually constituents.
Younger MPs and female MPs are more likely to use social networking. Male MPs are more likely to use blogs, which are seen as top-down forms of communication, with less engagement involved, because many MPs' blogs don't have the facility to leave comments.
"The more interactive or real-time the medium, the less likely that it will be used by MPs to communicate with their constituents," the society said. "
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"The so-called hole in the ozone layer closed up miraculously didn't it?"
Patricia no. The rate of depletion of the ozone layer has slowed. That does not mean the problem has gone away, nor going away. It has slowed.
"Doesn't mean to say we have to pay the huge salaries of thousands of scientists and politicians to invent something."
It sure beats paying £1.4tn to a load of fabulously wealthy bankers, wouldn't you say?
Mind you, you are a Tory so probably not!
"The climate has always changed you oaf"
Yes it has indeed. Now it is changing more rapidly as a result of the indisputable effect mankind is having on the earth.
You might not like it, that doesn't mean it's invented by Gordon Brown.
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210. At 12:36pm on 24 Feb 2009, DialSquareDomination
"The climate has always changed you oaf"
Yes it has indeed. Now it is changing more rapidly as a result of the indisputable effect mankind is having on the earth.
===
Dial, please enlighten me. How many millions of years, or 10,000's of years if you prefer, do we have accurate data for, regarding climate change and mean global temperatures?
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Sorry, but you know me for blunt speaking and, yes, I DO think it is the fault of Gordon Brown but initiated by Blair and Bush.
Unfortunately politicians and particularly power crazy, want to rule the world, type leaders are dangerous.
They WANT to keep us busy and stressed with these issues. That is their strategy, don't you see?
How else could they march in and manipulate the world without side-tracking us in ways such as those I have mentioned?
Sorry if you don't agree, I hold fast to my convictions.
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Dial Square:
I had a sister in law (and my brother) hippie, leftie world saving freaks. Didn't send Christmas cards to ANYBODY to save trees but got upset if they received none.
They ate seeds and did all manner of weird save the earth type things. They jumped on every ecological bandwagon going.
However, they had the hugest house which they rattled around from wing to wing in (heating? don't go there), spent a fortune on gyms, air travel, computers and gadgets (but had a sign on their tv saying "TV is a drug"), spent thousands on alternative therapies and medicines and counselling.
Nobody could take that view of saving the world seriously. Like Brown they were a very bad advert for their "cause".
Now, Brown, extra runway. Where's the ecological sense in that?
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210 -
Wow,
You wrote indisputible in bold!
So it must be true!
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My 196#
So you can slag off all the politicians in the world, but have a go at the beeb for producing a soap that doesnt represent the area it is set in and you get referred????
Good grief, where are they getting these mods from???
Or which one of you sad puppies is a fully paid up member of the June Brown fan club??
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213. At 12:58pm on 24 Feb 2009, flamepatricia wrote:
Dial Square:
I had a sister in law (and my brother) hippie, leftie world saving freaks. Didn't send Christmas cards to ANYBODY to save trees but got upset if they received none.
They ate seeds and did all manner of weird save the earth type things. They jumped on every ecological bandwagon going.
However, they had the hugest house which they rattled around from wing to wing in (heating? don't go there), spent a fortune on gyms, air travel, computers and gadgets (but had a sign on their tv saying "TV is a drug"), spent thousands on alternative therapies and medicines and counselling.
Nobody could take that view of saving the world seriously. Like Brown they were a very bad advert for their "cause".
===
Flamepatricia, you may be interested in this:
"In his documentary, the former Vice President calls on Americans to conserve energy by reducing electricity consumption at home.
The average household in America consumes 10,656 kilowatt-hours (kWh) per year, according to the Department of Energy. In 2006, Gore devoured nearly 221,000 kWh—more than 20 times the national average.
Last August alone, Gore burned through 22,619 kWh—guzzling more than twice the electricity in one month than an average American family uses in an entire year. As a result of his energy consumption, Gore’s average monthly electric bill topped $1,359.
Since the release of An Inconvenient Truth, Gore’s energy consumption has increased from an average of 16,200 kWh per month in 2005, to 18,400 kWh per month in 2006.
Gore’s extravagant energy use does not stop at his electric bill. Natural gas bills for Gore’s mansion and guest house averaged $1,080 per month last year.
“As the spokesman of choice for the global warming movement, Al Gore has to be willing to walk to walk, not just talk the talk, when it comes to home energy use,” said Tennessee Center for Policy Research President Drew Johnson.
In total, Gore paid nearly $30,000 in combined electricity and natural gas bills for his Nashville estate in 2006.”
http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/NussbaumOnDesign/archives/2007/02/gores_carbon_fo.html
===
An Inconvenient Truth, indeed!
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214. At 1:06pm on 24 Feb 2009, sweetAnybody wrote:
210 -
Wow,
You wrote indisputible in bold!
So it must be true!
===
But Flamepatricia disputed it, so it must be a terminological inexactitude!
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It's obvious that Lord Ashcroft is and was a Tory, an 'oversees supporter', and closer to home, another big-wig Tory allegedly associated with tax evasion.
Tories, yes, some would say that's to be expected. The question is, why are they still Conservatives? To his credit, Cameron was quick to disown Conway. I appreciate that accusations still have to be proven, but where is the emphatic statement that tax evaders and UK citizens that look to carry less than their share of the burden of citizenship but still enjoy all the benefits have no place in a reformed Conservative party?
He was quick and right to wield (or should I say wave or threaten to wield) the sword of Social Justice at the discredited bankers, but the sword is just as appropriate for those old Tory values that cast Conservatism into the wilderness for more than a decade. Is Cameron serious about Social Justice or was the attack on bankers just a cynical example of political opportunism and sound byting? Have the Conservatives really changed? Is Cameron just a Social Justice veneer on an unchanged Tory animal?
Come on Dave. You can have your turn at running the country but it has to be a fair exchange. We want real democracy, real social justice. Commit to give us a system whereby should you fail we are not dependent on your good will to sling you out. Transparent, accountable government that can be prematurely removed for non performance (or breach of trust) might actually focus on honouring its promises to the people. Give me power over you and I might just trust you to represent me. Honest Government might engage the people to help themselves which after all is the only way we are going to get out of the mess we are in.
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"Dial, please enlighten me. How many millions of years, or 10,000's of years if you prefer, do we have accurate data for, regarding climate change and mean global temperatures?"
Flamepatricia made the claim that the climate has always been changing.
I made the claim that it has been proven that mankind is having a noticeable accelerating effect on this change.
Patricia - If you think the Global Warming discussion was initiated by Bush, Blair and Brown, then you need to see a doctor and discuss your memory problems. It was highlighted by scientists long before any of these men was in power. I don't like the three Bs anymore than you do, but you are coming across as slightly hysterical and paranoid, almost like a Daily Mail reader if you'll pardon the insult.
"Nobody could take that view of saving the world seriously. Like Brown they were a very bad advert for their "cause". Now, Brown, extra runway. Where's the ecological sense in that?"
There is no sense in it, nor is there pretending to be ecologically minded and heating a mansion. However, this is an aside, and does not deflect from the main point, which is climate change is happening, it is being accelerated by mankind, and it is going to have a severe detrimental effect on our planet.
If you don't like it, feel free to vote for someone who won't talk about it, and then I'm sure it'll just go away.
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212 Blunt Pat - Strong and wrong
So global warming was started by Blair and Bush? Actually, it was a well known phenonenon long before:
"The first theory of global warming came in 1824 when French mathematician Jean Baptiste Joseph Fourier discovered that the Earth's temperature was slowly increasing. Fourier argued that the earth's atmosphere traps solar radiation and reflects it back toward the earth.
In the late 19th century Fourier's theory was labeled the "greenhouse effect" when Nobel Laureate Svante Arrhenius coined the term to explain how carbon dioxide traps heat in the Earth's atmosphere.
In the 1950s, G.S. Callendar warned that the greenhouse effect was true and dramatically impacting the atmosphere of the Earth."
http://www.globalwarmingarchive.com/History.aspx
I'm afraid that anecdotes about your sister don't quite prove that the scientific evidence is a myth.
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#214
Nice argument, if you have no other.
So here's your chance....where's your [b]proof[/b] that man is not contributing to climate change in a negative way?
I can provide you with ample proof from scientific research done into the question, and am happy to do so.
Alternatively, if you do agree that mankind is contributing, don't you think we should be trying our best to limit that contribution, or should we sit back, forget about it and let our children's children deal with it (along with servicing Gordon's debt of course).
Comments like those by patricia just serve to show how self-centred and materialist our society has become. It is one thing to not take measures to prevent this happening, but to go round spreading pseudo-science to try and rubbish the claims makes you as bad as people scaremongering about MMR vaccine for the possibly miniscule chance of developing autism, so much so that we now have rapidly rising number of measles cases.
Once again, the pseudo-science buffoons come out arguing with scientists who spend their lives researching this rather than flicking through the Daily Mail every day, and we have to deal with the crap it causes later.
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#216
Yes another hypocrite. Doesn't make the argument invalid, just makes a mockery of the individual.
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218#
I dont doubt the validity of what you say and you make some salient points. Cam can not claim to be whiter than Blair, but hiding distinct shades of grey behind his back.. that just makes them as bad as NL, which they were meant to over by now.
But, can I throw this scenario into the equation:
"tax avoidance is legal; tax evasion is not".
And, for avoidance of doubt, I am aiming this at both - heck, all three - mainstream political parties, because lets face it, all three of you have rather rich overseas donating skeletons rattling like billy-o in your closets.
Are these donors British Citizens?
Do they actually reside in the UK, or are they effectively "Non-Doms"??
Have any rules actually been broken about thier tax status within the UK? How much of their income is earned from UK assets, how much from overseas?
How much, therefore of their income is actually subject to legal, fair and reasonable taxation, rather than Gordy's "stand and deliver/grab anything we possibly can" stance?
I dont know about you lot, but if I had moved overseas for a couple of years and made a half decent amount of money (as I may do, if I decide to go to the middle east or elsewhere, for example on a long term project), I would be pretty hacked off if suddenly when I either return to the UK or to find Mr Darling holding his cap out asking for his pound of flesh. Why would he be entitled to any of it, if it has not been made using anything in the UK? Just purely because I hold a British Passport? "You're loaded and you're a brit so hand it over so we can give it to failed Scottish & Newcastle banks for them to pay out in bonuses/keep the chavs dependant on benefits/employ more paper-shuffling quango'd civil servants". No chuffin' way, he can whistle for it.
That doesnt strike me as fair. Now, I dont know the circumstances of the Hinduja's, the Mittals or the Ashcroft's or whoever the LibDem one is who is being sniffed around... the only thing that is different is the financial scale of the thing, the principles remain the same... dont they?
If any one of these characters has not broken UK tax law - and surely if they had, the revenue would be quite dogged in their pursuit of them - paying 100K for information that was effectively stolen from a Lichtenstien bank whistleblower proves that - and, arguably rightly so.
SO... as none of these characters have been clapped in irons - yet - what is exactly the issue here? That to contribute to a British political party, you have to be a UK resident, with a UK passport and have no overseas financial assets?
just what exactly IS the regulation?
Anyone know?
All three main parties are at it, they've all got donors who are under suspicion, so this is a general question. Forget Tory and Labour mudslinging, straight truthful answers to honest questions please...
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DialSquareDomination
I think the point that flamepatricia is making is that all these people who are telling us to change our ways are hypocrites, because they do not do what they preach. The Government does use climate change as a money making scheme of that there is no doubt. The poor motorist being a good example.
Actually she is more in step with the people I see, who say the same thing. They are starting to say that all the rubbish they separate goes into landfill anyway, it is not being recycled, because it costs too much, so whats the point. Also we make up such a small amount of the CO2 anyway, its really up to places like China and America to change their ways, which they never will.
There are as many scientists who say that actually the climate just follows sunspots and is nothing to do with anything else. That the climate will always be changing. These scientists do not get a hearing however because it suits Government to take the line of those calling it climate change. Also scientists have discovered if they say they are working on climate change they get extra funding.
Above all I object to being told which light bulbs I can use, those energy savers are rubbish and dangerous.
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#221
So here's your chance....where's your [b]proof[/b] that man is not contributing to climate change in a negative way?
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Amazing - thats twice in the same week that someone on this blog has demanded that I prove a negative. Last time I had to prove that god doesn't exist. Which of course I couldn't do, because I understand logic enough to know that you can't prove a negative - something you clearly don't.
You may be right, and Man may be contributing to climate change - personally I think the book is still open on that and there are far too many people who only get paid if they keep coming up with evidence that man is to blame.
I also don't quite understand how me paying more tax is linked to solving that problem, and you SHOUTING it louder isn't going to make any difference.
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DialSquareDomination 221
Im afraid you have just done that which you accuse flamepatricia of.
No one has proved that the MMR vaccine does not cause autism in certain cases. So if your child was that one in say a million you sure would care. Just like your saying she should care that although we only make up a small proportion of CO2 we should care about that.
Bad argument on your part I feel.
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219. At 2:00pm on 24 Feb 2009, DialSquareDomination wrote:
"Patricia - If you think the Global Warming discussion was initiated by Bush, Blair and Brown, then you need to see a doctor and discuss your memory problems. It was highlighted by scientists long before any of these men was in power. I don't like the three Bs anymore than you do, but you are coming across as slightly hysterical and paranoid, almost like a Daily Mail reader if you'll pardon the insult."
and
222. At 2:05pm on 24 Feb 2009, DialSquareDomination wrote:
#216
"Yes another hypocrite. Doesn't make the argument invalid, just makes a mockery of the individual."
Dial,
Why do those who can't win an argument with logic and reason have to resort to insult and misrepresentation?
I suggest, if you haven't already, that you read Bjorn Lomborg's book "The Skeptical Environmentalist"
He, like you, was an ardent environmentalist, he is a former member of Greenpeace, but became concerned at how the environmental organizations made selective and misleading use of the scientific evidence. He has gone into great detail in his book - it is well worth reading
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191. At 10:29am on 24 Feb 2009, dwwonthew wrote:
"Apparently, in a 2 day hearing on the Lisbon Treat in the German Constitutional Court, the 'reporting judge' said: "One has to ask soberly: What competences are left with the Bundestag in the end?".
Presumably, therefore, we should be asking "soberly" what competences will be left to our Parliament.
In reneging on the Manifesto promise to hold a referendum and pushing the Lisbon Treaty through Parliament perhaps Brown will be remebered as the last of our Prime Ministers and his ultimate epitaph will be that he was the Prime Ministeral turkey who voted for Christmas. "
My sentiments exactly. It is easy to get distracted when there are so many issues surrounding us but to my way of thinking this is one of the most crucial and important we have currently. We are in danger of losing the last remnants of the democracy we do have.
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Can posters please refrain from discussing Global Warming; Fairies in the Back of the Garden; and other myths.
Please not that correct use of this site is the posting of comments that hold to account, embarrass and otherwise rightfully abuse the awful Gordon Brown and his shambles of a government.
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If the earth's temperature is increasing then why is it I still have to wear a coat and boots in the winter? Why is it my heating comes on in the winter but not in the summer?
Why do our perennial plants come up and die roughly in the same seasons? Why do we still have robins in the winter?
Why do we get colds in the winter and hardly ever in the summer.
Oh, come on now. Don't put climate in the change for changes sake category.
I can't stand it. It is a big hoax which they have now signed up for and can't admit they are wrong or they would lose face.
(Thanks Susan for your support).
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The media seems to become worse daily. Not only the news is vile, but we are shown the very worst aspects of humanity. The tragedy of a young woman, Jade Goody, suffering from terminal cancer, was degraded by photos of her fiance leaving his mother's house, with male friends, all dressed in female underwear. No doubt a musical will soon appear on the West End stage, "Jade", with all the synthetic bathos only professional artistes can produce.
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231. At 6:05pm on 24 Feb 2009, mightyyangela
But who sold the rights to the wedding to a tacky magazine and obscure TV channel?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
234
For goodness sake, why was this referred? I was answering 233 from yellowbelly 1959. I wrote it was Max Clifford. Is Clifford, perhaps a blogger and did he decide to have me referred? This is what happens when ignorant types are let lose on the forum.
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183. flamepatricia
Hello flamepatricia,
I have been trying to praise your posting, but those below stairs keep referring my blogs. Better leave it for tonight, until a more civilised crew takes over.
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181 flamepatricia
What have you got against universities? you think they indoctrinate us to support Labour?
that's laughable, most people at uni are from well-off backgrounds where the telegraph is the bible
There were a few socialist groups, even communist ones - but the support for Boris Johnson (it was just before the london mayoral election obviously) was huge - out of my group of friends I knew one socialist, most of them didn't even care for politics, so he was probably about 1/6 of potential voters
they probably demonstrate more (I can't really imagine tories demonstrating much) - but your idea that unis are a hot bed of labour activity should be left in the 70s
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236. At 9:31pm on 24 Feb 2009, mightyyangela wrote:
234
For goodness sake, why was this referred? I was answering 233 from yellowbelly 1959. I wrote it was Max Clifford
===
And Jade Goody said no, did she?
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BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH
BLAH
BLAH BLAH
Hey Nick, why not talk about the real issues of today IE the absolute proof that we are living in a state controlled by the law makers - freedom of information? give us a break.
If its official that the law can be broken when it suits the state.
its pethatic.
Put me on the red list.
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You tube D MOB "we call it acid"
change the word 'aciiidee' for 'BBC'
Thats what the BBC are to the MASS'
Its a complete joke!
How long do you think you can contain it for?
Lets have a real blog shall we, this aint going to go away - OR WILL IT?
TONY bLAIR IS POOPING HIS PANTS.
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239. yellowbelly1959 wrote:
236. At 9:31pm on 24 Feb 2009, mightyyangela wrote:
234
For goodness sake, why was this referred? I was answering 233 from yellowbelly 1959. I wrote it was Max Clifford
===
And Jade Goody said no, did she?
========================
O.K. agree with you in theory. But, she's hardly the sharpest knife in the drawer, whereas he is a practised manipulator.
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223 Fubar
Good answer, and as usual backed with sound fact and reasonable logic.
On the Cameron thing, I'm particularly hard on him (compared with the other two main parties) for two reasons.
The first is that I was badly let down by Tory sleaze in '97. We'd had a belly full of unpleasant medicine and things were just starting to get better and they lost the plot. I want new Conservatism to make good on the failure of the past. Cameron does answer questions. He even tries to stay true to his promises. Last weekend, Politics Show, the BBC were trying to get him to say that changes in inheritance tax were still high priority and how stupid was that given everything else. Typical of the BBC to pick on something almost moot now given the reduction in property values, but Dave would not renege on his promise even in the name of expediency. I think I might have answered that a promise was still a promise but it might have to wait until the third or fourth term since it would take over a decade to fix Gordon's mess - Maybe the BBC would like to ask something more pertinent. In the absence of blow-your-socks-off inspirational leadership in the whole political sphere, answering questions and keeping promises speaks to substance and I warm to Dave. I just want more. I even suspect he might be capable of the whole "Socks" bit, he's just holding back and it's past time for someone to seize the initiative.
Secondly, delivering the whole root and branch constitutional and institutional reform required to support the broad social justice agenda this country needs cannot be carried by a loose collection of Independents. It has to be championed by one of the main parties. Brown is Brown and obviously not to be trusted and Clague is OK but leading with "Insulating homes" and joining Labour mocking the Conservatives as "Do nothings" even with Cable as bag man just underwhelms. Cameron is the only one talking about Social Justice at least by name although I fear that my scope and his are quite far apart. We need one of these turkeys to vote for Christmas; to exchange real democracy for the right to govern for the next parliament.
So, back at the sleaze, Cameron can frustrate us like the others by tacitly condoning interpreting of "the rules" or he can declare his own rules that more closely the public mood. To the righteous, truth is self evident. Surely it must be easier to do the right thing than to do the wrong thing "under the rules".
I want to trust again. I want hope. Cameron could be the first Prime Minister of a real people's democracy or just the latest phony of our tired parliamentary system and what goes round will come round again, ... and again, and Nick's history will be all we have to look forward to.
Nice to talk again Fubar.
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238. Tarquin. I agree with you on some points but many many Labour supporters I meet (apart from the obvious "lower working class" socialists) are actually from quite well to do backgrounds but became Labour supporters and activists whilst at university.
When my four children were at primary school I was dismayed to find the teachers quite quite different from when I was at school. They were scruffy, long haired (men) unshaven, rebellious and my children came home with all sorts of notions about politics and liberal views which, they said, their teacher had told them. That is when the wearing of school uniform was deemed unnecessary too. How can you have smartly turned out children with hippie teachers? Beats me. We were always taught that your dress reflects your self esteem. Also, people can distinguish which school a child is from if they are behaving badly (or well) in the street.
So, maybe, to agree a little with you I would modify my statement to read "Teachers' Training Colleges and Universities" are responsible for indoctrinating many.
I also find those with a big chip on their shoulder tend to turn to Labour (or did, perhaps not so much now as even they don't like Brown).
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Nick
I've been away for a few days and I've just caught up with your blog.
You seem to be going down the same route as Andrew Marr. He was gradually separated from being the main political reporter to hosting his own TV show on Sunday mornings.
If Gordon has been known to complain about the way he's reported he has nobody else to blame but himself. He is certainly not a personable man and he will probably go down in history as the worst PM this country has ever had. Will you be reporting that in your Radio 4 programme? Never mind about discretion preventing you from commenting, Nick, more like Campbell and Mandleson, I'll wager.
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Tarquin, I forgot to say:
My own brother did his teacher training at Sidney Webb College+. My brother turned from a nicely dressed, decent, Conservative supporter and voter to a scruffy, hippie, shrill socialist.
+Sidney and Beatrice Webb? Look them up. When you know who they were you will understand. Very eye opening.
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247 flamepat
From that it may be something to do with teachers, hardly the most capitalistic of people, nor your average student - and a college being founded by a writer for the fabian society being socialist doesn't exactly surprise me, but certainly my very large standard-type university had little socialism going on from what I could see
I don't like the psuedo-socialist aspects labour have sneakily introduced into the school curriculum however
(I thought primary schools didn't have male teachers anymore - most of mine were older women with perms)
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to add to my post above if anybody is listening!
My brother whilst at Sidney Webb College actually came round to my house to see my new first born baby and told me:
"She is not your child you know, she is a child of the universe".
Falls neatly into line with Brown's wish to rule the world and to have children indoctrinated by the State at school.
have to say though my brother became the most overprotrective "helicopter" parent when his own children were born.
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No male teachers now Tarquin?
You amaze me. Perhaps it is so, but mine certainly had them and the deputy head was a man.
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250
you haven't seen the frequent news stories that say there are virtually no male primary teachers anymore? It's pretty well known, I only had 2 at primary school and that was twenty years ago
according to this less than one 1 in 6 was male 4 years ago:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4336092.stm
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I want this Labour government flogged on Tower Hill for their crass incompetence and arrogance.
They haven't even apologised for goodness' sake!
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Comment 21 is very interesting. With that rule in place then you would not have had Churchill as PM during World War II.
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