Labour's dilemma over Royal Mail
Why, at a time like this, are ministers picking a fight with many of their own supporters about partially privatising one of the most cherished institutions in the country?
That is the question being asked by many in the Labour Party - not just on the left but also on the right and in the cabinet itself.
On Tuesday morning what's called the "L committee" of the cabinet (the L is for legislation) could not agree on the Parliamentary timetable for the bill which will part-privatise Royal Mail.
Harriet Harman chairs the committee as Leader of the Commons. She told colleagues she needed more time to consider how to proceed.
They claim that only the intervention of the prime minister secured her eventual agreement to publish the bill this week with the intention of it becoming law by the summer.
If Harman has her doubts she is not alone.
The Chief Whip Nick Brown has done his Parliamentary arithmetic and has told the other Mr Brown that, in its current form, this bill can only be won with Tory votes.
Alan Johnson, the former general secretary of the postal workers' union, is said to be no more convinced now than he was when he fought Tory plans to privatise the Royal Mail.
Some Labour MPs believe that he has rediscovered his appetite to lead his party in the event of defeat at the next election.
Some also claim that David Miliband is a sceptic.
Even Blairites, who usually call for more not less reform, are unconvinced. One told me "It's all very well to take on the party when you're on the public's side. But when you're not..." The sentence trailed away.
So, how do ministers answer the question I began with?
They say they've simply no choice.
Left to its own devices, Royal Mail would simply go bust - sunk by the massive deficit in its pension fund.
If taxpayers are to pick up the tab for that they will, it's argued, demand that the company is finally sorted out. .
Only private management with its experience of running postal services abroad have any hope of doing that, ministers go on to insist.
"We'll have the pension bail out but not the privatisation" comes the reply - not just from the traditionally change-resistant postal workers' union but its many allies.
A growing number in the Labour Party cannot understand how their party can one minute nationalise a bank and the next privatise parts of the Royal Mail.
Today, Peter Mandelson has tried to woo those who are not implacably opposed to private sector involvement in the Royal Mail with a pledge that full privatisation (which he once backed) would be ruled out in this bill and also with promises of changes to the competition regime which many complain makes it uncompetitive.
However, those who have never believed in the New Labour holy trinity of markets, profit and privatisation, now think that they have found their cause, their time and a battleground on which they believe they can win.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~38~RS~)
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"Today, Peter Mandelson has tried to woo those who are not implacably opposed to private sector involvement in the Royal Mail..."
This sentence made me sick. How do I file a complaint?
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One of the most cherished institutions in the country?
The only thing cherished about the Royal Mail is the Royal part of it.
They can't be bothered to deliver to central London streets before 11 in the morning.
Their drivers are by far and away the most reckless of all the white van man types around; I know of two people injured by their reckless workers - one of them died.
I know of one person who worked for them and walked off in disgrace at the attitude they took towards a discliplinary matter - taking a parcel home and dropping it off the next day rather than putting it back in the post to arrive a week later.
These people are a disgrace to the Royal soubriquet and the mismanagement of the pension fund and belief that taxpayers would bail them out is illustrative of their comtemptuous attitude towards the rest of society.
If ever there was a case for a company being shut down or cut off and obliged to survive on its own this is it.
Letters are continually dropped in my letter box for houses only two doors away or just around the corner.
These people are a shower and abuse government cowardice about their role.
Gt rid of them as soon as possible would be my advice followed by;
Call an election
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Labour are doing this now because they know they won't be in government to do it next year...
Parallels with the dying Tory government's privatisation of the railways, anyone?
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Its about time someone from within stood up to bully Brown
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This has been mooted previously but we need to do a little bailing out as has occurred with the banks. I think that part privatisation is a dangerous road to go down and will only lead to full privatisation. The banks have had billions and are still failing. Lets top up the pension fund with some of that seemingly endless change swriling around and look to evaluate the Royal Mail and the way forward.
After all we shortly have a bit of quantiative easing coming. There'll be plenty more to throw down the drain, why make an exception?
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I'm completely with Alan Johnson when he says that the idea of him leading the Labour party is laughable. He said he doesn't have the ambition for it so why should the Royal Mail issue make things any different Nick?
I was trying to work out why I have such a total aversion to Alan Johnson other than the obvious - he looks just like the black market spiv in Dad's Army. And the age of brylcream and bristol cream rather than today's idea of what a political leader looks like.
And then I remembered. It was 1959 and it was my first day at school. You could still see the remnants of the black out curtains on the edges of the high school windows. My first school lunch found me trying to eat my watery custard while this janitor type in navy blue overalls was standing over the large metal slop pail fishing out bits of meat for his dog or cat or whatever before said slop pail went off to the piggery. This character had a drippy nose and as he pulled bits of meat from the pail, the pail received in return a drop of his nasal fluid. Anyway for what it is worth this guy was the spitting image of Alan Johnson. And whenever I see him it feels like it is 1959 all over again. Perhaps I should see a therapist or perhaps ask the BBC to publish a look away now message whenever footage of Mr Johnson is about to be screened. Of course it might be more to do with the fact that Johnson is the most terrible hypocrite who goes on the BBC spinning the NHS Charter when he has admitted that the basic state eye test is deeply flawed, more British people suffer than you can shake a stick at, and yet he has absolutely no intention of reviewing Government policy. Perhaps it is just that. But I'm not convinced. You know what they say about our earliest memories......
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There wil be a hidden agenda here. Always is with Labour. Most likely related to debt or pension funds.
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I think that governments that go into their fifth year are lame ducks trying to delay the inevitable.
This partial privatisation is not exactly a vote winner is it. The result of this would be to push Brown's election date from this May or October to 2010!
Why can't Labour wait until after the General Election to pursue this?
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Umm, perhaps because it allows a smokescreen for the Coroners Bill where lazy journalists only report the stories on a plate ?
Heaven forbid that the great nick Robinson may actually report something not on Labour Party's agenda.
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Of course, this whole issue highlights the pensions apartheid that exists in this country; between the public sector workers on generous final salary pension schemes and the vast majority of private sector workers, who are not.
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I'm not overly bothered for myself what happens to Royal Mail, as given that I'm based in London I will expect to continue to receive a reasonable postal service no matter what. But I do feel very sorry for those in the Scottish Highlands or similarly "unprofitable" locations if this privatisation goes ahead.
I know the government will say that the commitment to a universal postal service will be maintained by regulators.
Don't we also have regulators to ensure that BT doesn't abuse their monopoly, that water companies behave themselves, and that the trains run on time? Weren't the banks supposed to be kept under control by regulators as well?
Forgive me if I'm not convinced.
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Dear Nick,
Royal Mail seems like a good system that is wrong with (Za)Nu(Improved)Labour.
Take something that works, tinker around with it, watch it crumble, and then use my money to sort it out, (whilst blaming America- lol)
Does sound familiar does it not???
Xxxx
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...and yet Nick like so many in the BBC and other news organisations you've ignored the EU dimension in this.
We HAVE to privatise the Royal Mail (open it up to competition) due to EU Directives as described here:
http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/post/legislation_en.htm
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Nick,
"Left to its own devices, Royal Mail would simply go bust - sunk by the massive deficit in its pension fund."
You must know as I do that the government has plundered the public pensions, reducing them to the shocking levels they are now.
And now that it's all gone a wee bit sour, they're going to flog the only profitable parts of the business off to private hands and saddle us poor taxpayers with more debt from the pension liability. And then, probably, they'll plunder the pensions again - those liabilities aren't included in that inane figure Brown trots out hourly.
It's a disgrace that this is happening. This isn't a Labour, Tory, or Lib Dem party-political issue, this is simply a bad, bad, bad piece of legislation.
Yes, what ministers think is important, and I like hearing what they tell you off-record. But try to give us the bigger picture too please.
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Oh dear. The elephant in the room has been missed again.
Here's a hint. Two letters. EU.
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I doubt that privatising 30% of the service is going to solve anything. But then neither do I see what's special about the postal worker's pensions. No-one's pension (with the exception it seems of those fat cat bankers) is safe these days.
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Maybe this sounds naive, (and Stephanie Flanders could answer this rather better than Nick), but my understanding of Economics 101 is that selling assets in a "worst in 100 years" crisis is a act of desperation.
I can not see he logic of selling or part selling it now when almost all asset prices are plunging are record setting rates.
The pension deficit is a massive red herring, because it is the same problem whether or not it is sold.
So is the modernisation issue. That can be done by the Royal Mail itself.
All that is required is the political will to allow management to take on the uni...ons...No...wait, i am begining to see where my argument is breaking down.
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This still does not answer the question why are they picking this fight now. The cost of the pension fund is a drop in the ocean as to that which has been spent on banks.
Brown has gone to extreme lengths to keep his party and voters on side, sometimes to the detriment of the health of our economy, why now is he throwing it away for this issue. We seem to be missing something here.
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Why should the tax payer fill the black hole that is the Post Office pension fund?
A black hole is a black hole. Gorden Brown should use the 5 billion tax raid he made on private pension funds since Nu Labour came to power to fill the gap.
My contribution is somewhere in those tax receipts - I should not have to pay again.
And what about the fact that Alister Darling could have prevented the ex-RBS chairman from drawing a £650,000 annual pension at the age of 50. The word scandal seems insufficient to describe whats going on.
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Words fail me with this government. It is just endless broken promises. Silly me they did not promise to part-privatise, just like GB did not say he had abolished boom and bust! Lets face it they can promise what they like but I would not trust them as far as I could throw them.
The logic seems flawed. The pension pot is the problem but if the tax-payer takes on this liability then we can part-privatise to get money in for modernisation. If they want the smooth then they should take the rough. Otherwise leave it in the public sector, get some decent management in, stop this silly unfair competition and run it as a SERVICE. The profit it is making can be ploughed into re-structuring and modernisation.
Tell you what Lord Mandlebrot. I'll do it. I could not do any worse a job than previous incumbents.
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How can you have a real time meaningful blog when it takes an hour to pre-moderate a comment? Surely the Brown Broadcasting Corporation can act quicker than this?
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Have you run the numbers Nick?
Maybe Mandy should a party on a yacht?
Any comment on this gob smacking admission by the "incompetent" Darling
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7912651.stm
Light touch regulation, not looking at the contracts before deciding the plan of action plus all the dithering that went on beforehand...
What else are they going to admit that they got wrong.
Do you think Darling was so angry because someone else found out and was going to do the expose and forced the admission from his lips?
Any chance we could have a brief outline of how to get a vote of no confidence?
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I understand that the only which is to be retained would be the name 'Royal Mail'
Well no you couldn't really sell that could you - because it wouldn't be.
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Are there not a few competing tectonic forces at work here.
1. The country is not bust but is in DIRE straights and are there many choices? But then it sounds as though they should have been aware of this problem for a long time.
2. As you identify there are leadership positioning issues.
3. It may well be that many senior Labour figures know they haven't got a cats chance in hell of winning the next election. Labour doesn't do policy debate anymore but perhaps their positioning is more to do with sentiments of preserving Labour from fatal damage at the next election.
For example nobody seems to have asked whether the HBOS buyout had as much to do with the 2010 Scottish referendum as with financial stability. If Labour have destroyed the economy (the worm has turned at the FSA) AND they lose the referendum on Scottish independence that will be a catastrophe. There would be knock on effects to Trident location, armed forces numbers etc etc. The Iraq war inquiry is apparently not going to happen before the election.
Are Labour bust and how do the Unions justify funding them as their members hit the streets jobless in large numbers?
4. Therefore you do feel that the Labour machine is starting to over-rev and may experience a severe breakdown in the next twelve months.
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Personally, I'd rather concentrate on the evidence of Lord Turner yesterday to the Treasury Select Committee, wherein he confirmed that the current financial disaster was more to do with the Crashmeister's "not just light touch, limited touch" regulation system than a "global problem, wot started in 'merica, guv".
Still, I suppose this takes peoples' minds off that, doesn't it.
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Oh Dear.
This looks like yet another complete Horlicks, does it not?
Can nationalise a bank, but cant run the post office as a fully nationalised industry...
can bale out RBS, HBOS, et al but cant bale out the RM pension fund or save LDV,
Looks like someone gave all those chickens SatNavs.... they're all legging it in the direction of Downing St right now! Gordon'll think he's living in a hen-house by the end of the week!
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Peter Mandelson’s involvement with
Royal Mail comes at the tail-end of a long,
insidious process to undermine it
commercially and sell it off. Our ‘leaders
knew this all along!
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People tend to think in a binary way about this, that is, private or public ownership of a business such as the Royal Mail.
There is a hybrid that has been demonstrated to be very effective, namely the 'partnership' model ala John Lewis.
Crozier and Leighton suggested this idea to the Government a while back but they rejected it.
I do not know why they rejected it but I have requested my MP to find out precisely why.
If I get any sort of sensible answer, that is, not a 'non-answer' then I will let you all know.
PS. It is the sort of question that you'd hope a political journalist might ask.
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Now we have Hain admitting that we handed over detainees to the US
Did he send them via the Royal mail?
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"Why, at a time like this, are ministers picking a fight with many of their own supporters about partially privatising one of the most cherished institutions in the country?"
Perhaps Nick Robinson should actually do some journalism and try to look outside of his narrow Westminster blinkers. The reality is that this government has no choice in the matter as postal services are being reformed throughout the EU as part of an EU directive. See:
http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/post/legislation_en.htm
http://www.euractiv.com/en/transport/postal-services-liberalisation/article-161377
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2008/05/destruction-phase.html
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2008/12/euro-mail.html
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This is complete rubbish. The public sector, we are told, does not have the management expertise to run the Post Office. The private sector, we are told, are not capable of running the banks.
There is only one thing the public sector cannot run and that is the country.
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I really don't believe that this government cares about British communities.
Driven by greed and panic. Yes, I said panic.
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If postal workes were bankers they would not have to worry about pensions, as they seem to get theirs.
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Lord Mandelson, writing in the Daily Mirror, admitted that he knew the issue was "politically different" but was determined to confront it head on.
"My door is open and I will listen to these concerns," he said.
Ministers MAY make a statement in Parliament outlining government policy after the bill's publication.
Exactly who does Mandleson think he is? I am getting really fed up with this man`s arrogance. Why is Gordon Brown allowing this unelected peer to run the government at the moment and to dictate policy as if he was the Prime Minister. I strongly suspect that the real reason why so many MPs are apposing this bill, is to give Mandleson a bloody nose and not because they oppose part privatisation of the Royal Mail.
Unless I missed something in the coverage of this story his Lordship is proposing the continuation of universal delivery across the country; but will it be at a universal cost to the customer, no matter what the distance?
One for you to follow up Nick.
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ghanimah @ 13
You point us via a link to an EU directive concerning Postal Legislation.
I have had a very brief read of this and see nothing particularly adverse in this.
For Europe to function efficiently as a single market, then it seems to me, imperative that there must be a level playing field across the EU for goods and services.
This is fundamentally what 'harmonisation' is all about (which also should include taxes).
The EU bureaucrats and associated politicians generally seem to do a dreadful job of explaining the actual and potential benefits of 'belonging' to the people of at least this country, but a lot of what they are attempting to achieve actually makes sense.
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I have just received an email from Gordon Brown:
We received a petition asking:
“We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to resign due to gross financial incompetence in running the British economy.”
Read the Government’s response
The success of the Government’s macroeconomic framework, introduced in 1997, means that the UK is facing the international financial crisis and the recession it has caused around the world from a solid foundation. Credible medium term objectives and mechanisms for short-term flexibility mean that the Bank of England and the Government can deliver the necessary support to the economy without compromising their commitments to low inflation and sound public finances.
The Government’s priorities to get Britain through the recession fairly are to prevent the collapse of the banking system, so that people’s savings are secure and the banks can do their job; to get the financial system lending responsibly again so as to support businesses, jobs and growth; to support the economy and jobs through direct government action, including tax cuts and important investment projects; and to help people through these tough times, from homeowners with difficulties paying their mortgages, or people seeking employment or training, to small businesses with cashflow problems and larger businesses needing working capital.
Action has also been taken to boost our economy by putting money in people’s pockets and bringing investment plans forward. This includes:
· income tax cuts of £145 for every basic rate taxpayer;
· £60 extra for every pensioner in January 2009;
· a VAT cut worth on average over £200 to every family this year; and
· an extra £3 billion investment in projects that will protect and create jobs.
Further details of the measures the Government has put in place to provide real help now so that homeowners, families and businesses can get through the downturn fairly are available online at http://www.realhelpnow.gov.uk/
In addition to discretionary fiscal policy to support the economy through these difficult times the 2008 Pre-Budget Report announced a sustained fiscal consolidation from 2010-11 when the economy is expected to be recovering and able to support a reduction in borrowing:
· restricting the income tax personal allowance for those with incomes over £100,000 from April 2010, and introducing a new additional higher rate of income tax of 45 per cent for those with incomes above £150,000 from April 2011;
· increasing the employee, employer and self-employed rates of national insurance contributions by 0.5 per cent from April 2011;
· to offset the effects of the temporary reduction in VAT, increasing alcohol and tobacco duties, maintaining these increases after December 2009 to support fiscal consolidation; and following a fall in pump prices of over 20 pence per litre from their summer peaks, a two pence per litre increase in fuel duty from 1 December 2008; and
· an additional £5 billion value for money target for 2010-11 and setting assumptions for spending growth from 2011-12 onwards.
We will continue to do everything we can in the current difficult times to give real help now to families and businesses, and help our economy to come through this recession as quickly as possible, and we will take the tough decisions in the medium-term to maintain low inflation and sound public finances. This will ensure the UK is well-placed to prosper in the new global economy which will follow the current global recession.
===
I'll take that as a NO then!
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Oh my God!! Mandy trying to 'woo' someone??? The thought have sent a chilling shiver down my spine!!!
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Working in the private sector without a safety net, I have little sympathy for the postal workers.
Their pensions should be reformed so that their scheme is affordable, the rest of us are not subsidised and have to make do.
The postal service is now appalling, at my place of business somedays we have next to nothing for a few days followed by a glut of post. It is hard to see the point in the second class mail service, when the whole system is so erratic and dare I say second class anyhow.
After the last dispute many businesses turned to emailing their paperwork and a lot have not reverted back to the post. Further disruption would just be counter productive
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This government is all over the place.
Let's see.
RBS was a Public Company. Owned by corporate, private and pension fund shareholders - right? Overseen by the Treasury, BoE and FSA - right? (Now it's obvious that Brown designed a three headed lion, but forgot to include teeth! The new Head of the FSA say they had no egal powers to intervene and "sort" any institution that had an unworkable business structure!)
People are angry because non of the key RBS Board members held banking qualifications.
Brown's agencies say that corporations must focus on keeping pension funds topped up, rather than paying dividends.
RBS made an emergency "rights issue", subsequently followed by disclosure of a massive loss. It seems that, at least, the Scottish Police may investigate whether investors were made aware of the complete fragility of the bank. If you seek to raise GBP12 Billion, when you fear yo're going down the pan, it is (at best) smelly...
RBS was bust. Brown shovelled (or is the process of shovelling) GBP 39BILLION of our money into a failed bank.
What about Royal Mail Group?
That is a private company. (Although Royal Mail Holdings Group seems to be described as a PLC.) Entirely owned by the Government (us... tax-payers. Held in trust by the government of the day).
Overseen by PostComm. Forced by government to accept "downstream services providers". (As part of the EU directive to "open the markets", which has been far more selectively applied across other countries.) Those are folk like TNT who pick up bulk mail from people like government departments - after all, why should they give a stuff whether a publicly owned company could be disadvantaged? It wouldn't affect their bonus prospects... They the third parties sort stuff and do the easy distribution to Royal Mail centres. Then the "last mile" - always the most expensive part of any distribution operation - is done by posties.
Check Royal Mail accounts and you'll find that they subsidise the commercial companies to the extent of GBP100+Million. Another clever bit of government administration?
Have a look at the Board membership of Royal Mail Holdings. I couldn't spot a single person who had direct operational experience/expertise in logistics and distribution. Is there a public outcry? Nah.
Is there a Minister demanding an injection of genuine expertise? Nah.
Diversity on a Board should be a good thing. But diversity without fundamental knowledge of how the business works is a waste of time and money.
The government is now underwriting GBP 300+Billion of RBS "assets" (equivalent to almost half of a single year's UK tax take).
The Royal Mail pension schemes are between GBP 5 - 9 BILLION in deficit.
Who, as shareholders, were responsible for pressurising the company to keep the fund stable? Government.
Who as shareholders could have injected money to limit the damage (equivalent to a rights issue in the commercial world...)? The Government.
This mob have no idea how business works.
Why should they? How many Ministers have ever done anything as appallingly gross as getting involved at the working levels of the commercially focused "delivering" companies who produce tax-take? You don't need the fingers of two hands... Even one hand would be a bit optimistic.
Doesn't matter, though. When they drift off, we'll keep on paying their pensions.
I just hope that "real" companies will stop adding ex-Ministers to their Boards as though they brought expertise and "kudos". I could probably find dozens of people with a suitably sceptical view-point to enhance a board. Rather than a sub-prime Privy Councillor...
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Just two more examples of those Tory toffs sucking up to their hedge fund friends in the City!!
1) John Prescott
"I've got a pretty busy week this week. On Thursday, I'm appearing at the London Labour Gala dinner in Canary Wharf to raise money for the party. Alastair did the last one - it's a three course meal for £50 and organised by London organiser Peter May, who always puts on a good night."
===
2) Lord and Lady Myners
Baron Myners said recently "I have met more masters of the universe than I would like to, people who were grossly over-rewarded and did not recognise that. Some of that is pretty unpalatable. They are people who have no sense of the broader society around them."
Broader society is suffering terribly as the banking and debt crisis ravages the economy. Yet the former Smith Institute deputy chairman, Guardian Media Group chairman, hedge fund director, long time Brown crony and newly appointed City Minister, Lord Myners of Short Selling, isn't showing any signs of belt tightening. Quite the contrary, he is hosting gilded parties.
Yesterday he and Lady Myners "graciously" invited their friends from the art world, politics and upper reaches of the Guardian into their Belgravia home to view their multi-million pound modern art collection.
hat-tip Guido
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The ball is crossed and with a spectaculer scissors kick Darling scores a fantastic OWN GOAL
Surely now there is no way back for Labour, Since Blair left the pitch handing Brown the Captains armband they have managed to squander their lead and now trail by 12
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"Standard Chartered, a British bank that was run by Lord Davies, the trade minister, has been accused by the Foreign Office of 'propping up' President Robert Mugabe's government in Zimbabwe.
Internal Whitehall emails seen by The Telegraph show the concern at the Foreign Office about the involvement of Standard Chartered Bank in Zimbabwe.
Lord Davies of Abersoch was chief executive and then chairman of the bank until last month when he became a trade and investment minister. Standard Chartered is among a handful of foreign banks operating in Zimbabwe. It employs 860 people and has 24 branches there.
However, an internal Foreign Office briefing document accuses Standard Chartered of diverting money to the Mugabe government.
The documents, released under the Freedom of Information Act, say that Standard Chartered had been "diverting" cash to the regime through a loans scheme."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/zimbabwe/4808007/Zimbabwe-British-ministers-bank-propped-up-Robert-Mugabe-says-Foreign-Office.html
===
And people on here were thinking that the ZaNuLabour references were a joke or offensive!!
Maybe Lord Davies is now advising Gordon Brown!
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This all sounds ominous to me.
The whole public sector pension thing is the mother of all time bombs anyway. This may be the first of many battles to come as the British people discover that funding public sector pensions as they stand will only add to the momentum towards state bankruptcy.
I'm one of that minority (it seems) who believes that this crisis, which started in the summer of 2007, has barely begun to unfold. It makes me laugh (ironically, of course) when I read of politicians and others announcing that this will all be over by Christmas and that 2010 will mark the great climb out. Ho, ho, ho.
Can't wait to hear Alistair Darling's fantasy budget when it comes in April; that'll no doubt have me rolling about on the floor.
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The real question is why would anyone support this rabble of a government? Better the devil you know? Well we do not know because they are constantly having to admit cover ups/sleeze/incompetence after the event. Whoever you are - working, middle or upper class - they are fleecing you. All the money they are throwing around like confetti will have to be repaid sometime. That means job losses for most of us and where will the Labour MPs be - swanning around in their "second" homes/mansions with their fat untouchable pensions.
How much more do we need to get rid of them?
They have constantly misled the general public - manifesto pledges, wars, a bank bail out with strings attached, boom and bust etc. etc. They cannot be trusted to change a lightbulb.
If any MP in the Labour party really cared about this country they would act now and call for a vote of no confidence.
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Mandy keeps on saying what "HE" wants to see and what he wants to do etc. etc.
How on earth has our democracy come to this, when an unelected PM appoints an unelected, twice disgraced follower of the gravy train, to such a key positiion at a time like this, and allows him to make such sweeping and controversial decisions?
The sooner we see the back of this lot the better.
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This pathetic episode simply demonstrates how our disjointed Government is digging itself an even deeper hole -- let's hope that a few more examples of disfunctional incompetence will be enough to force an election -- we can't afford to let these clowns carry on too much longer!
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Dear Nick,
I wish to ammend my blog at No.12 to this...
(Za)Nu(Improved)Labour.
Take something that works, get pushed around by the EU and forced to sell everything, deny this, then bail it out using my money.
Does sound familiar does it not???
Xxxx
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Why do the BBC never mention the true reason that we HAVE to privatise the Royal Mail...??
The EU.
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Labours dilemma - is this Nick Robinson speak of how to re-interpret their own manifesto so they can ignore it ?
Ohhhhh, Nick believes the line that part privatisation isn't the same as privatisation !
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To get back to the real topic of the blog
Labour'e Dilemma
Maybe it should be whether they go today or tomorrow?
I also think you missed the elephant in the room Nick? What is the government's interpretation of the EU's involvement in this whole debacle
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Here is an interesting Early Day Motion from the House of Commons. The motion has been tabled by the DUP MP, Gregory Campbell and at time of writing has one other signature on it, that of his DUP colleague, David Simpson. The motion is titled "Politicians and the Economic Downturn" and reads,
That this House notes the extent of the economic downturn right across the United Kingdom; realises the significant degree of cynicism that exists among the general public in relation to how politicians are responding to the effect the downturn is having on average families, many of whom are facing uncertainty regarding employment and their standards of living; and recognises the need for politicians, irrespective of party labels, as well as all others paid for out of the public purse, to have an obligation in demonstrating value for money approaches in whatever capacity they are employed and to show cost reductions where possible as a contribution towards the exceptionally difficult economic times in the nation."
===
I have emailed my local MP via
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/
to make them aware of this EDM and to ask if they will be signing it.
Why not do the same?
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Nick, you can't be unaware of the EU dimension. So why do you (as in the BBC, not just yourself) persistently ignore it?
Someone's probably given you this link already (it's difficult to have a meaningful discussion when posts from 1½ hours ago still haven't been moderated) but it covers neatly the exact point you raise.
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2009/02/its-directives-stoooopid.html
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What is this piffle?
Nothing on Vince Cable calling the Golem's latest banking wheeze a "disgrace" or having said that the government has "lost the plot"?
All we get here is the Golem's spin on the Royal Mail. That's, as Vince might put it, a disgrace.
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Dear Nick,
why is there no blog on the BBC about the Jack Straw's disregard of Freedom of Information by closing the files on the decision making involved prior to the Iraq War?
This is an awful decision and mires most of the serving cabinet, the PM, Tony Blair et al in "hide the dirty laundry" sleaze.
The BBC should allow a blog and encourage people to ask why this whitewash has been allowed to happen.
Sorry I have posted on the Royal Mail blog...solidarity to all postmen, why not sell off Portcullis House to the private sector, 10 Downing Street could do B and B, isn't it about time the Government stopped embracing economic policies that have been shown to be destructive.
What has happened to the 9.5 billion from the pension fund.......
The TIRED out of ideas Government should reflect on its record of...
NO ACCOUNTABILITY
BEING ECONOMICAL WITH THE ACTUALITY
INCOMPETENCE
INABILITY TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE EXCHEQUER
etc etc
before it has a go at postmen
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ghanimah, Aretherenonamesleft, gruvster and possibly some others who have not had their posts modded yet, have all got this right.
IT IS THE EU!!!!
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Nick,
Nice to see your on the ball re: Darling's admision that the GVN could have stoped Sir Fred's pension.
As for the Post Office - if you as taxpayers are taking over the pension fund liability, then is the Treasyry also taking command / control over the monies currently invested in the pension fund.
If the answer is yes - then perhaps Brown wants to press ahead with the deal, because it will give HM treasury an immediate cash/assets injection. Of course, he doesn't give two hoots that this 'gain' will be wiped out (and then some) by future liabilities - because he won't be in power when the bill arrives. After all haven't the dead tree press also reported that Gordon has eye on raiding other public sector pension pots.
On a totally seperate topic - do you know if Gordon and Robert Maxwell were friends? You know with both of them, being lerading lights in the Labour movement...?
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one of the most cherished institutions in the country
Never heard it called that before
Have it called bloody ..censored.. and ..deleted.. Oh yes and ..detained for 42 days..
Postal workers are overpaid, workshy luddites, says government report
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2008/dec/16/post-office
Come on privatise it and put it out of our misery.
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@36 Yellowbelly
You should start another petition asking him to resign for writing such twaddle
"The success of the Government?s macroeconomic framework, introduced in 1997, means that the UK is facing the international financial crisis and the recession it has caused around the world from a solid foundation."
There isnt a shred of truth in that paragraph apart from it was a macroeconomic framework that was introduced in 1997.
Success no, solid foundation no
"? a VAT cut worth on average over ?200 to every family this year; and"
Already proved untrue unless you spend Close to £10,000 a year on VAT rated items
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Gordon Brown has been rebuked by the Westminster sleaze watchdog for subletting taxpayer-funded office space to Labour Party colleagues.
The Prime Minister "inadvertently" broke rules by allowing premises in his Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath constituency to be used.
Lessons from a one Ms J Smith ?
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I wouldn't trust anything Mandelson insists is a good idea after forcing through the Lloyds TSB HBOS merger, against competition rules, and against the advice of former heads and the Scottish government.
It's ridiculous that the government will hang postal workers out to dry. Be prepared for a radically reduced service if this proposal comes to fruition.
Hopefully there will be enough of a backbench revolt to scupper this move.
After watching the Portillo on Thatcher documentary (very enlightening), it's hard not to see the parallels with the current regime and the death throws of the Major government.
Too many Thatcherites scuppered Major, too many Blairites scuppering Brown? Probably not. However the infighting has begun, leadership challenges and votes of confidence (Harmann) etc. Like the Major government, they know they can't possibly win the next election, so meltdown has ensued.
I just wish that there was a credible alternative, as the documentary concluded, has the Tory party really changed. I sincerely hope so, but its sad we have so little choice in British politics. However that may soon change.
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Yet another leak just before a bill is due to be debated - are the police on their way to raid someone's office ? Or isn't this leak embarrassing enough ?
Maybe this is to cover up the story on Freddy goodwin's £650K per annum for life ?
By the way how much is Gordon Brown's pension pot now ?
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40#
Yellow;
get yourself over to Pestons blog for some pretty damning stuff on Myners.
Guess who is at the centre of the gawdalmighty horlicks over Sir Fred's Pension?
The person who was on the spot at the time who told RBS they wanted The Shred out?
Who should have done the diligence on the pension and the payoff?
Who indeed???
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JohnConstable @ 35
You seem to accept there is an EU dimension to this. As do I, although we might differ as to whether there should be.
The point is, why is Nick studiously ignoring this dimension, as the BBC usually does, when it is vitally important to understanding why the Government is pressing ahead? I don't believe he doesn't know about it.
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The success of the Government?s macroeconomic framework, introduced in 1997, means that the UK is facing the international financial crisis and the recession it has caused around the world
On the first read through of that bit I thought it meant that the UK had caused the international financial crisis and the recession around the world :)
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Post 30 referred to the EU directive - alas every other country in the EU is ignoring this for the rubbish it is - do you really think any private firm is going to collect mail from your street corner, sort it, ship it, and deliver it to your door, in less than 2 days for less than 40p.
The Mail relied on the money it made from post office counters and parcels - the privitisation was a debacle from start to end.
Call an election.
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There are a number of compelling reasons why the government is pushing ahead with this despite runblings of a fight ahead.
Firs, its an EU directive that they have to follow.
Second, the task of licking the Post Office into a profitable business will fall to a private company, not a union-sponsored government, with all the difficulties that entails.
The bad news is the pension shortfall, which I suspect will be hived off to make RM look profitable (for a while anyway), to be swept under the carpet to join the ever-increasing lump.
No-one has yet pulled the carpet back to reveal the pretty obvious elephant hiding there that is our national debt.
Will someone please stop Brown and Darling feeding it buns?
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The reason the fight is being picked is simple....Gordelpus wants the party to sack him and then somebody else can take the blame for not sorting the countrys finances out
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Regarding Brown's apology for his offic sub letting, Labour's former Scottish First Minister Henry Mcleish resigned due to a similar affair:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/scotland/2001/mcleish_resignation/1644756.stm
"The Central Fife MSP said he took "full personal responsibility" for the mistakes which had been made over the sub letting of his constituency office in Glenrothes."
But an apology is enough it seems. Just how far to the right has New Labour moved from its roots, it's as if the Torys are the left wing party in parliament at times now Labour have moved so far. Perhaps we've moved into the world of US politics with Torys and Ultra Torys?
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Many people seem to be dissatisfied with what Royal Mail offers. Actually, where we are the normal day-to-day service isn't half bad, and not particularly expensive either - in comparison.
We have a little (probably more than most Brits, with our Dutch background) experience with the joys of having TNT as a partner in the postal delivery process. Ever since TNT got involved in the Dutch post service has gone way way down, and prices have skyrocketed. The actual business of delivering mail seems to have been made completely subservient to that of making money. All very well, but only up to a point.
Now, the UK cannot have it both ways: if business costs are such that revenues generated do not cover them, either those costs have to be brought down, or revenues have to increase. Pensions are essentially a cost element; one which by its nature is a little less easy to reduce than the cost of new uniforms, say.
This would leave increased revenues as a logical option, and believe you me, that is what TNT will do! Cost of sending a standard letter in the Netherlands is at least 50% higher than in the UK, especially when taking the 1st/2nd class options into account (as these do not exist over there). Then there is the added cost of going over the 20 gramme weight limit for letters. A standard size first class letter weighing close to 60 grammes (we send those out with great frequency) will set you back somewhere like 2.5 times as much in the Netherlands as in the UK. Justified? I don't know.
What I do know is that TNT would renegotiate the maximum prices charged for various forms of post before taking part of Royal Mail off P Mandelson's plate, and that can only mean that prices will rise (perhaps even combined with reduced service). So if this government wants to go ahead with part privatizing Royal Mail, it will just be presenting a delayed bill to the British public.
If that is the case, which it will be, it should be clearly stated, which it probably won't. After all, at that point the relative merits of the deal will look decidedly different. Even to the point where the UK might decide to try to plug the financial holes created in the past itself, before inviting in a wolf in sheepskin clothes.
And on a wholly different note: I find it difficult to imagine how TNT can go on providing bulk mail services to banks such as Barclays (which it does now) while being a partner in Royal Mail, as it will at that point essentially be competing with itself. That can hardly have been the intention of opening up the postal market, and would actually lead to either reduced competition, or unfair advantages for TNT in its bulk mail business, having more insight in the Royal Mail part of the postal services than its other bulk mail competitors.
A bit of a conundrum for mr Mandelson, I would say.
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#43 moraymint
"This may be the first of many battles to come as the British people discover that funding public sector pensions as they stand will only add to the momentum towards state bankruptcy."
That and the ludicrous discrepancy between civial servant retirment ages and the rest of the working populace.
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#42 - yellowbelly1959
StandardChartered is, on the face of it, one of the very few UK financial institutions which are not in trouble. Now they stand accused of 'propping up' President Robert Mugabe's government in Zimbabwe. Which sort of suggests that is more productive than propping up Gordon Brown's government - how ironic is that?
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May I suggest that posters read Postal Directives 2008/06/EC, 97/67/EC and 2002/39/EC before using them as sticks with which to beat the EU. These proposals relate to cross-border mail weighing less than 50 gr and costing less than two-and-a-half times the basic tariff as from 1 January 2006 - i.e. an estimated additional 7 % market opening to competition. They are available HERE.
They say nothing about domestic postal services and attempting to blame government policy on an EU directive is a gross distortion of the case. This is a matter for the UK government and if they are wrong, it is their fault.
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72. At 6:18pm on 26 Feb 2009, threnodio
No, thenodio, I suggest you read the full postal legislation agenda, it is patently not limited to what you describe.
http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/post/legislation_en.htm
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Anybody who thinks that Labour rebels will attempt to bring down this government by voting against the bill is living in cloud cuckoo land. They may posture and spout off against it but they will not risk losing their place on the gravy train just yet, they will support the bill when push comes to shove and take their chances on some miracle saving their bacon at the coming election
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#40 yellowbelly 1959
Yesterday he and Lady Myners "graciously" invited their friends from the art world, politics and upper reaches of the Guardian into their Belgravia home to view their multi-million pound modern art collection.
.......................................................
I think this is a tax break. I seem to remember that if you own antiquities and you exhibit them to Joe Public for a few days every year, there is a generous tax refund to be had. If this is wrong, I apologise.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Susan Croft
This still does not answer the question why are they picking this fight now. The cost of the pension fund is a drop in the ocean as to that which has been spent on banks.
.............................................................
Deflection. While we're all fuming about Fred's pension and looking one way, we don't notice anything else.
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The Tories are supporting Mr Brown in his endeavours to implement the EU Postal Services Directives. The "full market opening", under EU rules, must be in place by 2010. That really tells you all you need to know about who governs this country and they aren't in Westminster!
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kcband8
Why should the tax payer fill the black hole that is the Post Office pension fund?
..............................................................
Why not? We've already filled the large black hole in the MP's pension fund, but it wasn't really reported, was it Nick?!
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If Brown is going to bail out the pension liabilities, does that mean he will also return to the private pensions what he robbed whilst C of E?
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" 72. At 6:18pm on 26 Feb 2009, threnodio wrote:
May I suggest that posters read Postal Directives 2008/06/EC, 97/67/EC and 2002/39/EC before using them as sticks with which to beat the EU. These proposals relate to cross-border mail weighing less than 50 gr and costing less than two-and-a-half times the basic tariff as from 1 January 2006 - i.e. an estimated additional 7 % market opening to competition. They are available HERE.
They say nothing about domestic postal services and attempting to blame government policy on an EU directive is a gross distortion of the case. This is a matter for the UK government and if they are wrong, it is their fault."
Hi guy,
Couldn't agree with you more.
This administration didn't have a clue about how business works, so they introduced fairly stupid interpretations of EU "directives" (which actually means pan-European laws, but nobody will accept that interpretation).
My concern is that local Governments (actually our's) swallow stuff and interprete "edicts" as though they really should be introduced as soon as possible. Compare that with French and other governments. Take a look at how many EU edicts have been actually been actually becomer part of local law - and been applied with any rigour.
Take a look at how many bits of legal or regulatory edicts have been nodded-through by MPs. It's a disgrace. I challenge anyone on this site to find a single MP who has read every line of every new bit of regulation - and considered ther implications - over the last few years.
Find someone (any MP who could go on a "Univerrsity Challenge" type programme and explain why he/she nodded all that stuff through - not just the bits they thought they were fun to be engaged with - since they were elected) and I would offer my house as a prize. (I'm old enough to have bought a few houses outright. All paid for after taxes... But all places for family to live in - not second, third or other properties. So I am definitely NOT like Blair.).
If stuff just flows through, at thousands of bits of law per year, how can anyone individually read and consider it? So how can they "sign it off"?
This administration has adapted EU directives at a rate that has simply NOT been matching the reactions of other countries' governments.
We charge in, as though it is really important. There are just too many instances to quote of other countries who work the EU regulations through their systems when it "suits".
Goodness help us all if Blair ends up as the Pres of the EU. (Although I'm fairly sure there would be a book-deal somehow associated with it... And probably a role for Cherie... )
I can't be alone in thinking that politics has been much more morally corrupt than it used to be?
If I am, Goodness help you all.
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Nick,
I know there is a bit of a malais at the moment, but if you could just track Jack Boot Jackie down to wherever she is staying tonight...could you ask her about the assertions made by one of your colleagues on his blog about the knife crime statistics?
I wanted to post the link, but it seems to destroy the whole posting, but if you can write a blog I'm sure you can search the BBC site?
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@72
thank you, most illuminating
Next question has to be why the government says it has to do things in certain ways because of the EU with regard to the Royal Mail.
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#61 - Secret Love
"By the way how much is Gordon Brown's pension pot now ?"
Who cares providing he needs it very very soon?
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Stand back and read the background, folks.
The Labour party is now internally split, fighting to be the next King Log.
The problem is that we now have a year of bickering and infighting in front of us while nothing happens to sort the mess.
And if you want a recipe for finishing the job, that's it, Rahere's forecasts will come true. Perhaps the only serious answer will be for the opposition to secede and set up a functional government in rebellion.
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Interesting, StrongholdBarricades is replaced by Threnodio for non-moderation. Anyone with a U-monniker out there?
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They are gambling with the recovery, if there is ever going to be one.
I live in the countryside and do most of my shopping online for just about everything from clothes, plants for the garden to furniture for the house (apart from food, which day to day is at my local village shop and PO). I rely on the local PO to continue this way of life, which is both sustainable, and economical.
Anyone made redundant with the enterprise to start up a new small business, is going to create an online/mail order one... for it to succeed, they will depend on the Royal Mail functioning as it does now, in the main, reliably and efficiently. Courier companies just don't compare with the steady reliability of Royal Mail and I can quote numerous incidents to illustrate my point.
Mandelson is meddling with the recovery. I'd like him to spend a year living 20 miles from the nearest town away from his urban conveniences before he risks destroying our last great public service.
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Is part privatisation is stupid: Any semsible buyer will buy the good, profitable bits of RM and leave the dross to the taxpayer to sort out.
An all or nothing approach is needed - privatise completely or keep in public ownership (but seriously reform).
But to do this the government would have to make some hard decisions (such as whether to take on the EU, the unions or both). This government, however, is incapable of wiping its nose.
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Moderators
My comment 73 (6.41pm) remains unpublished and 'awaiting moderation' despite being posted more than two hours ago.
Why the delay?
And why the selective posting of some comments over many, many earlier ones???
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Erm .. EVERYONE's pension is looking bleak now, Nick, because the stockmarket has dropped. In 5 years time it will be at a low and another 5 years on it will be up again. So the question is if EVERYONE's pension plan looks rubbish, then why is NuLab using it as an excuse to privatise just the royal mail? They would privatise the whole government if pension plan health was the measure!!! (well, except parliament, of course, clearly MP's pensions will be OK!)
BTW, I am a virulent capitalist and yet I believe some things should be run as a service to ensure the best results for our civilisation. Things like post office, railway, roads, telephones, defence etc. are part of the infrastructure and should not be profit centres, but should be cost centres, subsidised by the people for the people. That is the only way to control them and make them deliver services that are crucial to the running of the country.
LOJO
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This is getting boring. Everyone seems to hate and despise the government. Where are CEH and derekbarker ? Have they capitulated ? How come the polls show 28% backing for Labour, yet no-one (except the BBC) seems to want to defend them ?
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It seems that Sir Fred Goodwin is to have his gross pension for life. Alas, as the old saying goes, only the good die young. Not of course, that one would wish him a speedy stage exit!
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Moderators,
Why has my posting #73 taken almost 3 hours to publish when it was in response to #72 ?????
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I know my memory's going, but I'm absolutely certain that it cant be more than.. ooh.. 15 years ago that the Tories were hell-bent on hiving off the Royal Mail to one or other of their financial backers... it was a rubbish idea then and it still is.
I suppose this is what the Tories mean when they say that Labour always nicks their ideas.
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Dear Nick,
Sorry to be a pain but why was this story leaked?
Was it because last week GB was fingered as the man who told the FSA not to regulate too much in the city?
Adair Turner told a Commons select committee that GB put pressure on regulators not to intervene in the reckless lending spree (which caused the banking crisis).
He also admitted that the three-ring regulatory circus designed by GB, when he stripped the Bank of England of responsibility for overseeing banking practice, was simply 'not fit for purpose'.
Please ask your (HP)source this minor, minor detail and find out the truth.
Xxxx
Ps,
What a busy week this is, all those bad news stories to bury on such a good day!
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Aretherenonamesleft @ 63
There must be a EU dimension to many of the things that happen on this island as we are in the European Union.
That is not a trite comment.
Similarly, there must be an American dimension to many of the things that happen in, for example, New Jersey.
The point I am labouring to make, in my usual cack-handed way, is that the EU is probably at the point, politically speaking, that America was at just after the Union was formed.
Therefore it is very understandable for people, especially English people, to be rather suspicious about the whole EU project.
Americans, were at the founding of the States, with respect to the 'Feds', very suspicious.
The New Jerseyians, for example, did'nt even think of themselves as Americans so when George Washington at Morristown, NJ asked the assembled militia if they'd fight for the Union against the British, they replied no but we'll fight for New Jersey.
Even today you'll hear plenty of mutterings about the politicians in Washingdon D.C.
So there is nothing particularly unusual, in the context of history, regarding our suspicions about Brussels.
Regarding your specific point about this political journalist, Nick Robinson, I doubt if he is particularly immune to the 'island mentality' that we who live here might be said to naturally have vis-a-vis 'the continent'.
Especially, due to the compartmentalisation of functions within the Beebs journalistic world, there is already a European editor, one Mark Mardell.
And, true to the 'euro' stereotypical image that we have of Europe, Mardell's blogs are full of euro-waffle.
Odd that.
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No 84, it's a very pertinent point, with the Golem insisting there should be no reward for failure. His failure should not be rewarded anymore than Sir Fred Goodwin's should.
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A fine actress and a lovely lady, Wendy Richards, died today. She conducted herself with dignity and grace. living out her life until the end without great fanfare. Will our Great Leader accord her a few minutes out of respect for her contribution to British films and TV, or is it only bestowed upon those who employ Max Clifford?
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Sending letters is dying out - they are a slow form of communication and the delivery is unreliable and they use trees. They are also priced below their economic cost. These are the technological and economic influences.
The politics is causing irrational and sentimental retention of the post. I recall the outcry when the Sunday deliverys was stopped and then the second delivery - both were deemed an essential part of the service.
The price must go up to an economic level. There must be NO discounts for unsolicited bulk post - even a surcharge- (that should put pay to junk mail!) [or just make it illegal to send unsolicited post an imprisonable offence!!!]
Twice a week delivery is sufficient. and a single priced universal service at say 60p per item (with small packets more) (or some such service) plus free email for everyone - a national universal email address as a right. A simple easily administered low cost efficient service that runs at a profit! Do these things and a 30 percent stake will not need to be sold.
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35. At 3:20pm on 26 Feb 2009, JohnConstable
However, John, we have consistently been misled by politicians as to the scale and nature of the EU.
The 'benefits' we have been told about seem to be very different to people's practical experience.
Read # 69 for the reality -
69. At 5:49pm on 26 Feb 2009, Meulendijk wrote:
"...We have a little (probably more than most Brits, with our Dutch background) experience with the joys of having TNT as a partner in the postal delivery process. Ever since TNT got involved in the Dutch post service has gone way way down, and prices have skyrocketed. The actual business of delivering mail seems to have been made completely subservient to that of making money."
Other examples -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/4594349/Councils-to-be-given-power-to-snoop-on-calls-and-emails.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/4279444/How-Defra-crushed-British-fishermen.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/the-big-question-does-halving-rubbish-collections-really-help-the-environment-446343.html
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2009/02/yesterdays-news.html
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#73 - Sparklet
Well that is actually the link I posted so we have a different understanding of what they are saying.
That having been said, it is quite clear that they are talking about competition not denationalisation. I would have thought it was not unreasonable to ask the Post Office to compete on a level paying field given that they already have a ready made infrastructure, an established customer base, trained staff and 150 years odd of experience. Please tell me where it says they have to flog all or part of it to the private sector.
This is Mandelson playing government minister, not European Commissioner and I repeat that it is a government proposal, not an EU directive. I would also repeat what I posted the other day. Who, in their right mind is going to buy 30% of an ailing business with a black hole for a pension scheme in the middle of a depression?
The answer is they won't. The pension scheme will have to bailed out before anyone will look at it, which surely makes the whole thing an exercise in futility.
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rahere - I have a u number (or two)
Post 87 - I would also like to see Mandelson living 20 miles from the nearest town ~ the town I have in mind is Plymouth.
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Hi Nick, I noticed that all the news channels and newspapers except the BBC are reporting about Crash Gordon claiming his constituency property on Parliamentary expenses then subletting it to someone else for cash - are you going to mention it??
Apparently other MP's have had to stand down for this infringement, but because 'there was no benefit' it doesn't apply to him.... not sure how that works, but I know you can find out!!
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@Rahere
I think the posting is an experiment to save the moderator time
Behave and his job gets easier...and as time goes by you will be able to push the free speech thing much further.
Unless of course you're alleging something far more diabolical
Any news from Jack Boots Jackie, Nick?
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86. At 8:26pm on 26 Feb 2009, rahere wrote:
Interesting, StrongholdBarricades is replaced by Threnodio for non-moderation. Anyone with a U-monniker out there?
****************************
WHY DOESN'T THIS EVER HAPPEN TO ME?
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Seems the Welsh are out for some constitutional change of their own.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/wales_politics/7912263.stm
End of the UK on two fronts?
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It is now11:56 and numbers 88-100 have not yet been moderated. However, #101 has been moderated, approved and is on the forum for all to see. Is there any special reason?
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Why should the public sector have their mis-managed pensions bailed out when none of the rest of us get ours bailed out?
The public sector pensions have insane black holes simply because they're so ridiculously high, whereas everyone else's pensions have black holes because Brown/Labour have ruined the economy, driven the stock market into the toilet by their negligence which has left the world with no faith in our economy, and stolen the money through tax raids.
Not content with stealing private pensions with his tax grabs, Brown now wants to use tax payers' money to continue to keep public pensions at mad levels.
Brown/Labour; you still don't get it, do you? Stop public pensions from being so high; we can't afford it as a country and it's totally unfair to everyone else.
Our private pensions are continually plundered by Brown/Labour, and there's virtually no safeguards in law for us; Maxwell situations can easily happen (and often do) as the current laws are totally useless regarding protection.
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The only possible qualification that Lord Mandelson has to speak about the Royal Mail is that he was once himself posted abroad.
It's a great pity he has 'returned to sender'.
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77 shellingout
ah, yes, very true; deflection, I guess having explicitly agreed to Fred's 12grand a week pension paid for by the tax payer via the bank bail-out, and then Brown saying "oops, I didn't mean it, sorry, I didn't bother to read that multi-billion dollar contract I signed the other day, can we have your pension back?", the government does have rather a lot of egg on its face right now.
"Sorry, I didn't bother reading the contract."
"I read it, but didn't understand it so I just signed it anyway."
Is that what labour/brown do with everything? Explains a lot about pfi.
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Nick Robinson:
Labour has dilemmas because, they are in the same precaious situation like the U.S. are in with the banks ....They can't seem to allowed to sink or swim for their best interests....
~Dennis Junior~
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There are many things I don't like about the EU. Primarily, the massive flood of directives (which are actually laws, but our government doesn't accept that definition, or permit it to be used in polite society!).
The Dutch chose to create a commercially orientated postal system years ago.
The Germans allowed DP to continue with an expensive monopolistic control for many years, having injected money to allow them to become relatively efficient. While still a nationalised entity, DP bought up many logistics/distribution companies (including the UK's biggest - Exel). So DP is now probably the biggest logistics company in the world.
What we've had is a government that, for a decade, has restricted what the Post Offices were allowed to do, introduced changes they didn't understand and hadn't costed properly and failed (as shareholders) to force Royal Mail Holding to maintain a sensible pension scheme.
Blair Brown & Co simply swallow any old rubbish that emanates from Brussels. They should have people, properly briefed, working within the EU to kick the daft, burdensome regulations into touch.
This mob couldn't negotiate their way out of a paper bag - even if they were armed with scissors.
Some posters complain that "the Tories" want to reduce the burden of regulation - and point to the lack of regulation by the Treasury, BoE and FSA of the banking system as evidence that more regulation is actually required.
That's daft. You can pass all the laws you like, introduce "statutory instruments" or whatever.
But if you don't DELIVER, it's just a waste of breath, time and money.
That's the problem with the Blair/Brown project. Lots of targets and invisible delivery.
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#112 fairlyopenmind
Nail, head, strike!
There is an almost endless list of fiascos from this government where they simply have not asked the right questions. Why? They have enough "advisors". In fact maybe they have too many advisors with too many contrary voices. Maybe they are surrounded by yes men. Whatever it is they seem to consistently make the wrong decisions and consistently fail to deliver.
In my opinion the arguement given by the gov for RM part-privatization does not make sense and is littered with inconsistencies. Just listen to any Labour MP trying to justify it.
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#110 getridofgordonnow
"Sorry, I didn't bother reading the contract."
"I read it, but didn't understand it so I just signed it anyway."
Is that what labour/brown do with everything? Explains a lot about pfi.
...................................................
Tessa Jowell said the same thing about signing he documentation for her rather large mortgage - remember that?
As far as contracts go, for a bunch of lawyers who are supposed to be the epitome of their profession, they don't excersise much due diligence, do they?!
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Why are Brown and Darling so worried about Fred Goodwin's pension arrangements?
These guys bought a company. Using our money. Didn't they have a good look at what we were buying?
If not, why not?
That's easy. They haven't given a stuff about the effective use of our money for a decade. Take it? Yes - that's easy. Spend it - yes, that's easy too. Spend it wisely? Not such an easy thing to do. And probably that will be the epitaph for the whole Blair/ Brown project.
"Look how much tax we collected and spent. Forget about effectiveness - just look at the numbers..." (1997-2010) RIT
(Rest in Torment...)
Why wasn't the company placed in administration? After all, assets don't disappear when a company is basically broke. (As proved by Northern Rock, which has been treated for a while just like any other company in administration. Until now, when Brown has decided they deserve even more money to encourage cash-flow into the housing market.)
Lloyds/TSB could have been a decent bank. Now it's saddled with massive HBOS losses.
Thanks Gordon. Guess it's time for your friend Blank to get a peerage...
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True distraction then, tie everyone up speaking about a pension they all ready knew about, and the rest about part privatising the Post Office
Meanwhile we have the BoE Governor in front of the treasury committee firmly pointing the finger, and everything else at Crash and Darling.
How about some accountability?
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#104
"Behave and the moderator's job gets easier"
FOR ONCE RAHERE IS SO ANGRY HE'S SHOUTING.
IF THIS IS ALL THIS BLOG IS ABOUT, KOWTOWING TO THE GOVERNMENT'S LINE,
THEN WE SHOULD ALL GO ELSEWHERE.
YOU SEEM TO HAVE INSIDER KNOWLEDGE ABOUT HOW THIS IS BEING MODERATED. IF SO, I SALUTE YOU WITH THE SCOTTISH SMILE.
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Just received the gov's response to the 'Resign over the financial crisis' e-petition.
Whats the point in these?
The response - listed somewhere above - is just a rehash of the information on the governments new propaganda website. i.e. 'due to our ... we're best placed ... VAT ... Hard working families ... Global... Global.. Global...'
The blatent lies this lot come out with is astounding.
Perhaps I'll try to create a petition to take the whole e-petition site down. There isn't even an easy way to complain.
Is it the 5th of November yet?
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fairlyopenminded
The government are trying to deflect interest away from the £600bn plus pounds they have used to bail out the banks.
Fred Goodwin's pension pot is a lucky break. I think government were all very well aware of the terms and conditions of Fred's contract - after all, most of them are lawyers, aren't they, but they need a high profile scapegoat. Yesterday someone "leaked" to the press that Goodwin's pension would be in the region of £9m. Today, that figure has doubled to £16m. The government must be desperate.
If everyone is angry and focusing on Goodwin's £16m, they're not going to take much notice of the huge amount of taxpayer's money being printed to bail out HBOS.
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From the Lloyds takeover of HBOS to the Royal Mail cutbacks there's been more than a whiff of corruption in high places.
Frankly, I believe some people in key positions have been bought and paid for, and if they want to sue me I'd happily see them refute my allegations in a Court of Law.
How is it that billions upon billions is available to the City Companies within days of ultra-rich, old school tie senior Executives putting in their request, but, an institution that is still very much a Public Service system is refused a paltry (by todays' excessive sponge standards) 8 billion?
Why is it senior Government Ministers and Civil Servants can find no compelling reasons to assist a Publicly funded organisation (that does not contribute to the exchequer but does contribute to the general Public good) and yet the global City-Companies that will provide those same Ministers and Civil Servants with their so lucrative post-Government 'Advisory/Co-opted' Boardroom Executive roles can be financially assisted and the incompetents running them, rewarded for abject failure?
In my opinion there is a really rotten smell beginning to eminate from this Government-Parliament-City cabal: The BBC would be carrying out its much vaunted National Public Service (for once) if it were to start digging and asking the awkward questions about which Members of Commons, Lords and Civil Service have "business-understandings" with which UK Companies presently asking for a hand-out from the UK Tax-Payer?
Mr Robinson, you could find a paper trail that would be G.B.'s 'Watergate': You do not have to believe anything I have suggested, in which case, there is no harm in asking the questions, is there?
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sweetanybody
I signed that petition too.
Government's reply sounded like one of Gordon's answers at PMQ's. Nothing at all to do with the question, just a stock answer out of the book.
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OK, let's move on.
If you kill the Post Office, you kill the Post Office Bank.
And if you kill the Post Office Bank, you kill the only widely-distributed alternative to the Goodwins of the world (qualification added to excuse the Coop Bank, which sadly is not sufficiently widespread to offer serious competition).
Equally, if you kill the Post Office, huge areas of the countryside will revert to barter as access to cash becomes impossible.
Ever tried to destroy a Nation? This descends to the level of the Albanian Banking Ponzi.
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Well well, The BBC still will not acknowledge this Royal Mail privatisation strategy is to satisfy the EU... scare of offending Europhiles perhaps?
I notice Deanthetory has not been posting his comments here for a little while....
Perhaps he has either done his homework and seen this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3664960863576873594 and has left in disgust, Or, he IS a graduate and and has left after having his cover blown...
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7914000/7914254.stm
Nick Robinson's comment today and the interview with the 2 eyed Humberside idiot (I'm sorry I apologise).
I cannot believe that he actually said that he was proud of the government's achievement of 10 years of economic growth. Would someone tell him that the growth came from the banking mess that he is so keen to condemn, added and abetted by the equally irresponsible Enron style off balance sheet assets called PFI, who's debt our children will be picking up for years. The man is an economic illiterate.
The guy obviously has been sleeping for the last year.
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Put Sir Fred in charge of the Royal Mail. He knows how to maximise pensions.
Failing that any MP can tell you how to get a lifetime pension guarantee for virtually nothing.
Or get Jacqui Smith to advise on getting the most from property held by Royal Mail. The rate she makes from one house could wipe out the RM pension deficit if applied to all Post Offices.
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The petition was a good thing because it is part of 'the record'.
Just like these blogs - there is a democratic public record - no need to rely on the revisionists with special access to 'the records'.
The petition didn't ask what the PM thought, it was signed by people who already know that he is incompetent and want him to go.
His response there will be cited in future as an example of one of the many, many places that he trotted out his tractor stats, showing absolutely no understanding or interest in what was being asked of him in any particular instance.
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The delicious irony of all this is that it was that arch-privatiser, hate-object of Labour, one Margaret Thatcher who said `The Royal Mail is not for sale'.
Now we see a bankrupt Labour government trying to privatise a bankrupt Royal Mail in a country which is now completely bankrupt.
Talk about make a desert and call it peace!
This just shows it all comes down in the end to the competence of the political judgement applied in both the short and medium term. It is increasingly apparent that political competence is an item which has been very much in short supply in recent years.
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This whole issue smacks of incompetenece and a lack of joined up thinking on the part of the government, so business as usual then.
In a time of global recession, and when the major push is to keep as many british people in work as possible, it makes no sense to show a lack of purpose. During the past few months we have had several instances where soundbites have taken precedence over common sense.
The bail out of the banks, ill conceived and definitely ill-managed, has put us all deeper into national debt and for a long period of time, in fact it is hard to determine how long it might take. Supposedly it was intended to preserve jobs, mainly Scottish ones, since the problem banks were based in Scotland.
Having committed billions (and its still an open amount) to that objective the government is now impaled upon the spear of global recession, since it claims that global solutions are required for a global propblem. So, it cannot prevent a contract for work in the UK, paid for out of economic activity in the UK, being allocated to a foreign company that then brings in foreign workers. To act to the benefit of British workers would cause its global plans to be set in disarray.
Then, when a large foreign owner vehicle manufacturer requests financial assistance to avoid making more British workers redundant this is refused because the foreign owner is expected to foot the bill. The government sacntioned the sale of the business to the foreign owner when times where supposedly good.
Now we have a totally unhealthy british company, which has effectivley resisted modernisation in the past, being given away to foreign investors with a strong likelihood that British jobs will go. What makes it worse is that the company pension plan is being used as a bargaining chip by the government. If it is really £6 billion undervalue it must be the fault of the business owner, for failing to maintain investment levels that would be consistent with the liabilities, and that's the government. It seems to be suggested that the Government will assume this cost, which it already has on its books, in return for an investment equal to 30 percent, or so, of the company value.
So, in an economic downturn, what does the government, and any potential purchaser, envisage as a fair price for 30 percent of a lossmaking business? Is it anywhere near £1 billion?
So, as far as I can see, the government's plan involves pumping money into banks with no clear idea of what to do with those banks, or how to identify the risks, or how to manage the risk, whilst simultaneously try to sell a major stake in another british institution to foreing owners without a clear idea of what to do with the business, and demonstrate their approach to foreign owned bristish based businesses that get into financial difficulties by refusing financial aid that is miniscule in relation to the mess we find ourselves in.
One further thought - who have the government got in mind to sell the banks to as and when they return to some form of manageable business? Foreign investors perhaps?
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Treasury Minister Lord Myners.
Yet another of Browns government of "All Talents" who finds it hard to read the small print.
And Oh! The excuses this time! "We were given the impression by the board of RBS that the pensions were legally binding."
Oh really? So no one actually checked?
When buying a car off dodgy Derek, who says it, has a full MOT and year’s tax, you'd bother to ask to seem them? And if they weren’t there you’d tell him to take a running jump!
No?
This government over the last decade has committed us all whether public or military, on items that have all been done on a scrap of paper to make a quick fix.
At no time it's seems do they pay attention to the detail. It's not as if the government is no bulging with staff! Could they not employ at least one professional worker (Who if good would be worth their weight in gold) to read through documents with a discerning eye and comment:-
This Good Friday Peace Treaty has holes you could drive a ship through.
This Human rights bill is aiding the wrong people, and can be abused.
Asbos are a waste of time and money.
No don't go to war with Iraq based on this cut and paste document from the internet.
Before we buy these banks, shouldn't we see how many people are on the take and change the rules, so we don't pay through the nose?
I think Ed Milliband should stop Carping on how households should cut their carbon emissions by a third by 2020, even though there are no real viable sustainable technologies to support this, Oh and by the way if he does insist on pushing on with this it may not be prudent that he sits next to Geoff Hoon when the Transport Secretary is pushing forward for a huge expansion of Heathrow Airport, because I’m sure I read somewhere that Aircraft are the biggest Carbon pollutants.
No Mandy don't bring Mandleson back, no one likes him and he's not very honest.
VAT to 15% for 12 months that would be stupid.
I'm sure you could think of more.
Labour. Go Please just go!
Rant over.
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Skynine
I've just listened to the interview in your link. What a hypocrite John Prescott is.
After the government's part in this country's recession, perhaps we should have a good look at MP's pensions to see if we can save any money there. Can you imagine the outcry? It's easy for government to say that Goodwin should give up his pension because he ran RBS into the ground. Should the cabinet give up their pensions for running Britain into the ground too? Thought not.
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Nick,
if the banks have been 'nationalised' as we were told they had been then what exactly is going to happen to the Pension Scheme for Royal Bank of Scotland. Why have the assets not been taken over and the payment of pensions controlled by the state.
Lord Myners apparently used to be in some sort of banking. Well my pension entitlement was always at the discretion of the Trustees. I could quote you from my pension booklet if you like but trust me, everything is at the discretion of the trustees.
As for the Board who approved these arrangements surely they should be named and shamed.
Mind you I do find it a bit galling the Prescott comments, could not the same be said of him bearing in mind his less than noble activities in the past.
I think that Sir Fred has brought the company into disrepute, I don't know of anything more disreputable for a bank than to become effectively bankrupt. Surely that was grounds for instant dismissal, again though it is very difficult for somebody to define reputable. Could not some ministers be charged with bringing parliament into disrepute, for example reading some papers without absorbing what was said in them, refer to the Hutton speech to parliament yesterday on Iraq.
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The answer is obvious to the problems of the Royal Mail:
Put Fred Goodwin back to work at the Royal Mail.
He can return his RBS pension and put it into the Royal mail pot and that will be enough to prop it up in the short term.
Then he can get to work shredding the Royal mail workforce as he did at RBS.
This is truly a marriage made in heaven - one of the most loathed individuals in the country running one of the most loathesome institutions in the country.
Why hasn;t the governemnt thought of it?
Call an election
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@117
I think you take the comments out of context. I can not help if you get angry, but I'm hardly going to put on an open forum a rallying cry to destroy the blog when there may be an opportunity to exploit the loophole which is opening
Much better to push the boundaries slowly backwards so as to divert attention from the actual intention...much like current government policy in fact
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@rahere
no point in jumping up and down if your comments are simply referred to the moderator
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Poor Nick,because of your speed in declaring Jacqui Smith a non story as there was nothing wrong with her actions,having to say nothing about Fred Goodwin's pension must be hard.At least it not as bad as the Labour MPs who are lining up to condemn Goodwin because it is immoral but would not sat the same about Jacqui.
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Privatisation has done miracles for the Dutch Royal PTT Post (now TNT post). If selling Royal Mail to them gets us all service like the Dutch enjoy (cheaper, all mail delivered within a day) I won't complain. A big if, I know.
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Nick,
If the government pursues Sir Fred for his pension and potentially giving some of it back is this setting a precedent>
I'm thinking particularly about the whole of this financial mess, and it would appear that all and sundry are now "blaming" Brown...the US, the FSA, The Governor of the BoE etc
If this precedent is set, would it then be possible to strip all those involved from this government who are currently in charge? Obviously of course it would also mean future opportunities to not reward failure
Of course I recognise that we have to begin an investigation first so that recognition can be given to those who failed and subsequently the appropriate action taken to the full extent of the Law.
Whilst sequestration of Sir Fred's pension might be popular, if it actually happened could that mean that anyone's pension could be taken if the state deems it necessary?
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This Government has been slowly strangling the Post Office for at least the last decade in what was clearly a deliberate tactic to enable them to privatise it.
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Nick with all that is happening with Sir Fred and Renidition you pick the post office as the subject, you are such a Brown stooge.
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@124
Very interesting, certainly much clearer than the blog entry here
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101. At 11:03pm on 26 Feb 2009, threnodio wrote:
"#73 - Sparklet
Well that is actually the link I posted so we have a different understanding of what they are saying.
That having been said, it is quite clear that they are talking about competition not denationalisation. I would have thought it was not unreasonable to ask the Post Office to compete on a level paying field given that they already have a ready made infrastructure, an established customer base, trained staff and 150 years odd of experience. Please tell me where it says they have to flog all or part of it to the private sector.
This is Mandelson playing government minister, not European Commissioner and I repeat that it is a government proposal, not an EU directive. I would also repeat what I posted the other day. Who, in their right mind is going to buy 30% of an ailing business with a black hole for a pension scheme in the middle of a depression?
The answer is they won't. The pension scheme will have to bailed out before anyone will look at it, which surely makes the whole thing an exercise in futility."
*********************************
Threnodio,
Sorry - your link (#72) didn't work for me - I got "page not found" then diverted to an EU index. I prefer my link!! (#73) & below
http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/post/legislation_en.htm
You mentioned in your post (#72) "an estimated additional 7 % market opening to competition"
The link above shows -
2010 Full market opening for 16 Member States, which represent 95% of the internal postal market
2012 Full market opening for remaining Member States that may use the possibility of transitional period
As to your other comments -
For a better understanding I think you need to follow the links provided by
30. At 2:31pm on 26 Feb 2009, gruvster
(including the link above)
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2008/05/destruction-phase.html
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2008/12/euro-mail.html
http://www.euractiv.com/en/transport/postal-services-liberalisation/article-161377
They are well worth reading.
Notice too in this last one comments by one
Adam Crozier, CEO of the UK’s Royal Mail with no mention whatsoever of a huge pension black hole!!!
So your view of the impact of EU legislation is obviously very different to mine.
Even so the interpretation of legislation can be very different and frequently the ECJ gives a completely different interpretation to our own politicians and lawyers. Some of us are old enough to remember the Spanish trawler fiasco!!
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To anyone who is complaining about queue jumping and moderation, I can only repeat what I have posted elsewhere. I am not an insider, I have no idea why my posts pass moderation so quickly but it is nothing that I am doing. What I have done, however, is be careful not to abuse it by posting anything outrageous or offensive - not always easy when confronted with some of the material that turns up here. If others were more scrupulous, perhaps we would not need moderation at all?
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Re: 142. At 12:13pm on 27 Feb 2009, threnodio
You're lucky threnodio, my reply to your #101 has still has not been published as at time of writing and there is certainly nothing 'outrageous or offensive' in it (not my style!!)
I think it may be more to do with subject matter!!!
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#134
"simply referred to the moderator" meazns killed without trace. At best, any appeal surfaces three days later, by which time it's history, and in over 50% of instances we're never informed why, so there's no grounds to appeal over anyway. The first two levels of the BBC complaints procedure took one month to receive a reply to at the first level, and two months at the second level, and still nothing changes.
There' s every point in getting thoroughly ratty when you've spent hours checking and rechecking only to find some ignorant moderator nails your hard work for nothing out of sheer ignorance, or because their framework is within-the-box whereas we now have the PM's authority to think outside the box, not that we need it or needed it. Look at what I just reposted on Bob's blog for a case in point - as you know, Rahere frequently uses the third person, and a post just got blocked because Rahere was abusing himself, according to the Moderators, who are thereby self-declared experts in the subject!
What's most annoying about your thoroughly complacent and self-satisfied approach is that those of us who post here frequently have seen what was considered blockable turn into the orthodox, simply because some of the people who're responsible for the mess have finally seen the truth of what we were saying here, too late to be able to do anything about it. The reactive (as opposed to proactive) behaviour of the leadership of this nation will sink us all if they continue on that track, it's arguable that we've already passed the cusp's tipping point and may not be able to recover back up the slope as we lose momentuum.
Nothing has been done to fix the moderation, however, so stop telling one of the best researchers not merely here, but across the continent, to behave, or you WILL get something to think about for the rest of your born days. If I were to behave, you'ld never have heard the first peep out of me and then where would you be?
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It seems only a matter of time now before things start to unravel very quickly with some of the major banks. The longer it takes the worse it will be - the more money will be flushed down the toilet. So why not do something - starting today - that will not only speed up the process but make things easier for yourself in the long run?
Certain banks are unlikely to survive for much longer. So why not get all of your money that you can out of these failing institutions now and put it in The Post Office. It might be wise to let your friends and relations know about this whilst they still have time :o)
Kill off these parasitic big bankers before they take us all under.
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142. At 12:13pm on 27 Feb 2009, threnodio
Why has threnodio's comment been referred to the moderators?
Couldn't see any problem with it hence my response at 143
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#142
Perhaps, but you and SB both adopt similar conformist viewpoints to the moderators. Why should the man in the street be complacent when he sees his entire life's savings blown away by the Crash inner circle? The only miracle is that there hasn't yet been blood spilt.
You'll find that Rahere's not been unjustifiably abusive, and the only outrageous behaviour he exhibits is not following the herd - when non-conformity becomes censurable, as it so often has here, then we're living in a 1984 world and that's exactly what we should fight to stop. For that nonconformity HMG should be grateful, as they took six months to realise that the book doesn't supply the answers here, and they're using ideas first announced and defended here, as I just said. The trouble is the moderators still are not allowing us to examine all the options and that's just not on.
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test
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Sir Fred Goodwin's pension is a distraction to divert attention from Bank Bailout III (or is it IV)?
This is from RBS 2007 Accounts:
"All /uk based directors, with the exception of Guy whittaker, are members of The Royal Bank of Scotland Group Pension Fund ("the RBS Fund") and are contractually entitled to receive all pension benefits in accordance with its terms. The RBS Fund rules allow all members who retire early at the request of their employer to receive a pension based on accrued service with no discount applied for early retirement."
===
Anyone with an iota of knowledge of how pension schemes work (that obviously excludes Myners, Brown, Prescott and Darling!) will know that to pay a pension for longer than had been anticipated will need a top-up to the fund, to compensate for 3 factors. In simplistic terms:
1) Pension to be paid for 10 years longer than anticipated.
2) 10 years less investment growth.
3) 10 years less contributions.
Obviously the actuarial assessment of the one-off cost of these three factors came to the GBP8million figure touted around.
It was his entitlement by right. If Myners could not figures this out, then he is an oaf! What did he do during his time at N M Rothschild, Gartmore, Bank of New York, Coutts and NatWest?
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@rahere 144
Maybe it is the fact that you make your posts so obtuse that they manage to find fault so often? Far too easy to press the "not relevant" moderator button if enough excuse is given
Hardly worth being the best researcher if no one is capable of reading what you've discovered, and thereby deprives the rest of us simple bloggers of your experiences, enlightenment and contributions to the debate. I did enjoy your foray into other realms whilst Nick was AWOL
It is a matter of wisdom that human beings are supposed to learn by their mistakes, but just like this government's behaviour that appears lost upon some individuals
I don't know what you mean by thisor you WILL get something to think about for the rest of your born days. It may imply a personal threat which I would find distasteful and may be construed as puerile since this is a public message board. I would request clarification if the moderator allows this through.
Again I refer you to my comments and ask you to reappraise your thoughts, you appear to have construed something not intended
Always better to demonstrate within the organisation than be seen as a bystander on the outside, until such time as the majority recognise the viewpoint. Use the support within the organisation to aid your attempts
I wouldn't lecture anyone on behaviour, merely query whether the intention demonstrated is actually achieving the goal that you have set. I too have felt frustration at moderator referral, but like a previous blog entry from Nick it does appear to be "the language" which you use
...and you have seen how long moderation times has actually reduced the amount of times I post on Robert's blog because the non-moderated posts stand out for hours
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If anti-terrorist laws can be used against Icelandic banks: why not against UK bankers? 42 days without charge might encourage them to have a change of heart.
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#102.Secret Love
I would also like to see Mandelson living 20 miles from the nearest town ~ the town I have in mind is Plymouth.
I see where you're coming from, but it wouldn't have the desired result... Didn't you know? He's got rich friends with yachts.
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Nick,
If Sir Fred left RBS in October, when did the final paperwork get submitted, and when did he get his hands on the cash to buy the annuity?
Could it be the reason why Crash suddenly knew about the payment?
Still believe it is a distraction to everything else they are trying to do with propping up their financial policies, and even the BBC is failing to follow up on Vince Cable's calls of "Fraud"
Still no mention of the Governor's interview at the Treasury Committee? Didn't that finally take off all the shrouds and break the axles of NuLabour?
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Why can't we give Gordon Brown, Peter Mandelson and the whole rotten lot of them a pension pot and get them to take. Now. The Labour Party is in bad enough trouble without these idiots destroying it.
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#150
GO TO HELL, I'M OUT OF HERE.
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102 secretlove
I would also like to see Mandelson living 20 miles from the nearest town ~ the town I have in mind is Plymouth
............................
The place I have in mind is somewhere off the Outer Hebredes - preferably about 60 miles out to sea.
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30. gruvster wrote:
"The reality is that this government has no choice in the matter as postal services are being reformed throughout the EU as part of an EU directive"
He seems to be correct. What do you say Nick?
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In view of the number of Commentators referring to 'missing' 'lost' 'delayed' Comments could all those making a Comment please realise that YOU only pay the LICENSE FEE, you are not in way, shape, or form to conclude from that situation that you are entitled to any consideration by the global media network known as the BBC, which frankly has no interest at all in Publishing the genuine views of Britons anymore than it is likely to report each week on the statistic that 70% of British Citizens do not want to be in the EU, or that, a survey just 2 weeks ago showed 70% wanted a General Election, or even that 4 weeks ago a survey showed 80% of the british Public would be in favour of the Top6 Banks of G.B. being put on trial!!!!?
You see, the BBC vested interest is in its unlimited access to the License Fee!
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The consequences of privitisation, albeit partial, are so monstrous as to render the bailing out of the pension deficit acceptable. Perhaps restoring the monopoly Royal Mail used to have could help ameliorate it, although that goes against EU laws, but why can we not get our MEPs to reverse them - after all we are well represented therein, due to the high population here.
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#156 shellingout
You are just being cruel! Look I know we have to take Brown and Darling back - but dumping Mandy on us as well is just plain vindictive.
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Sorry Oldnat - no offence meant.
Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll bu**er off back to Brussels.
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Since they came to power Nulabour has insiduously taken services away from Royal Mail - car tax, BBC licence, pension payments etc. etc. They have closed post offices, opened up the mail service to pseudo-competition where TNT, DHL et-al will collect mail from big business users, (British Gas, BT, NPower etc) partially sort it, pass it on to Royal Mail (at a much reduced profit margin) to do all the hard and labour intensive work of door-to-door deliveries. Why are the Royal mail burdened with the legal requirement to deliver other companies mail? If TNT, DHL etc had to deliver every letter locally they could not do it efficiently and would have to charge a lot MORE than Royal mail are allowed to.
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#161 shellingout
Apology accepted - neighbours shouldn't fall out.
There may be a solution to all our problems.
Despite my dislike of British practice over the centuries, this is one we could jointly resurrect -
"St Helena - For several centuries the British utilized the island as a place of exile."
Indeed as a gesture of European co-operation, we could extend this facility to our neighbours - a kind of reverse Big Brother and Eurovision
Brown - nil points - exiled.
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What prospects have our hard working Royal Mail staff? For 23 years up to the year 2000, the Post Office organisation (Royal Mail) had successfully made substantial profits.
In that year, Chancellor Brown deliberately took those profits from Royal Mail and left them severely disadvantaged. He also held secret talks with a Dutch rival, TPG, with a view to selling Royal Mail, then known as Consignia.
However, the cross-party watchdog Postcomm, set up by an Act of Parliament, had no intention of presiding over a postal service that was to be ‘flogged off’ to the Netherlands. This conflict with Brown has come back to haunt his Government. Mr McGovern MP Dundee East, resigned as PPC to Postal Minister McFadden (17/12/08) because unelected and self opinionated Mandleson is still trying to sell to another Dutch rival, TNT, breaking another Labour Party Manifesto promise.They really cannot be trusted. Why does the CWU continue to pay money into Labour when it is being damaged so much? I am sure its membership will have plenty of questions to ask their leadership.
We now have a dysfunctional Government determined to sell off a vital industry with the loss of 16,000 thousand jobs. This will unleash further industrial unrest on a collapsed economy. The base line is Royal Mail is finished under this Government. History shows Labour voted for the Post Offices Services Bill (which led to the closing of thousands of local post offices) and also agreed covertly to support EU Directives 97/67/EU and 2002/39/EC. This effectively put Royal Mail under unfair competition from German controlled DHL and other Dutch firms and has steadily eroded the profitable parts of the business ever since.
Lets face facts; this Government has turned Royal Mail, since 2000, into a financial basket case, unable to operate an efficient business plan and a mounting pension fund deficit of approximately £7 billion.
They now desperately seek to hide Brown’s years of interference behind a sell off. Hopefully the long-suffering postal workers and public will realise this ‘fire sale’ is a continuation of Labour’s vandalising policies towards the postal service in this country. They have taken billions out of Royal Mail and squandered the lot.
Labour have again broken a Manifesto commitment to preserve Royal Mail and protect tens of thousands of postal service workers’ jobs. This is another example of this Government’s gross incompetence.
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Nick,
I think that in amongst all the furore over the pension for a retired banker that not more is being made of the Hutton statement to the House of Commons over British involvement in rendition.
British soldiers handed over detainees to the Americans, and then we seemed to be less than interested in what happened to them subsequently. Strange isn't it don't you think. Why don't you and your other bloggers take an interest in this issue rather than concentrate on somebody who is only receiving his entitlement and which a failed Prime Minister blusters but can actually do nothing.
Parlaiment was lied to, agai, they sit there suppinely shout shame. This is the most morally bankrupt parliament, and when the history books are written then the true depth of our banruptcy will be revealed, Armagheddon was never going to be like this.
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The hole in the Roal Mail pension fund led me to wonder if the £5billion a year reported to have been raided via pensions tax relief since 1997 is by now £60billion. How about giving it back and using a relatively small part of it to top up up the Royal Mail fund? And others too?
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With a £5.9billion+hole in the post office pension fund,why do postal workers think that the rest of us should subsidise their pension when the rest of us have had billions wiped off ours?
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Part-privatisation will never work, and even NuLab know it.....it's simply a blind to deflect their miserable stewardship of the economy, and the profligate waste of taxes screwed from REAL business, and the rest of us.
Which 'private' company, foreign or not, is going to be gullible enough to underwrite a hopelessly unreconstructed business, dominated by the neanderthal 1960's union tactics ?
There is only one real solution, and that is full privatisation, but now isn't the time to do it, because of the recession.
Seeing as 'Gordo' the gormless is being so free with our money, but only to Bankers and carmakers, why, as someone already asked, can't he give back the money he stole from our pension funds, and that of RM too ?
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I am sick to death pf reading the news. The greed and ignorance of bankers, politicans and spin doctors has driven me to the decision to stop writing about them. Whatever we say, write or think they will continue to multiply like bacteria on a petra dish, and grow far on the backs of the citizens of this country.
Very disturbing is the news that war veterans are neglected once they leave the army. It was a dreadful mistake to close the military hospitals. This greed driven policy was started by the Conservatives and never rectified by Nu Labour. The Great War 1914-1918 was notorious for the manner in which shell-shocked and other traumatised military personnel were stuck away in mental hospitals, shot as traitors and generally seen as a nuisance. The soldier who received the highest medal here has spoken out against this injustice being done to our service and ex-service men. Will anybody actually do anything?
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The dilemma for New Labour can be summed up quite simply by the fact that because its caved in wholly to free market Tory ideology its got to privatise the Royal Mail to any degree it can get away with not just to fend off the Tories but to appear credible in their own right!
The dilemma the lay voter faces is that both mainstream parties, the Tories and New Labour, have to privatise more to deal with the current economic crisis/recession privatisation created in the first place!
So much for bourgeouis democracy! Just about to watch the programme about Thatcher! Was T Total but don't know if I will be afterwards!
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Brown and this dysfunctional Government should resign. Their mismanagement of Royal Mail and many other schemes have cost the British taxpayer dear.
After years of interference and having sequestrated the profits from Royal Mail, they have turned it into a financial basket case. Comments on ~ No 164 above explain the details.
Nothing can save Brown and his coterie of hopeless Ministers. They are facing an absolute wipeout at the next General Election. They have lost all credibility. No amount of spin will recover Brown's image or pour glory on him from the Obama 'halo effect'.
With pensions ruined, savings ruined, jobs ruined, businesses ruined, unemployment rising, there is no chance for Labour to recover. They have completely mismanaged the economy and it is going to get worse.
With all this turbulence going on,
Brown and Darling are about to pull the biggest fraud in taxpayer history by bailing out RBS. Why should taxpayers guarantee their losses? (£350 billion???)
The poor Postal and Royal Mail workers should scream at their union for sending the Labour Party millions in donations. They have been badly let down over the years and could lose possibly 16,000 jobs. They didn't stand a chance with such a greedy Chancellor. (Brown).It was in their Labour Party manifesto to protect and strengthen Royal Mail.
The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples money.
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The government does not know how manage the Post Office even with help from people skilled in this task such as managers from the FA and the Dome. To get in people of the right calibre it is a very important that we move towards full privatisation of Royal Mail so we have a smoothly functioning, strictly controlled private company (like the banks) providing easily accessible services (like the railways) at very competitive rates (as with the utility companies).
Never mind the 60,000,000 whingers who don't want to phone India to ask where their post is, we live in a democracy and Mr Brown should listen to his best friend Mandy and get on with the project
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it's time for some action
spread it around son
mash dem again
(hello beeb
i've got some posting
problems posting problems again)
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172. At 09:50am on 01 Mar 2009, SirWicky
===
I like your irony Sir!
Others may not get it though, prepare for some flak!
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Just a thought, but as we have poured GBP800 billion is it, or is it more, does anyone really know? into the banks, isn't it small beer by comparison to pump GBP1.5 billion into modernising Royal Mail without a private stake, and giving some guarantee or underwriting of the pension fund.
""I do say to you that guaranteeing a £25bn pension fund, spending £1.5bn on the Post Office network, maintaining a universal service obligation can be achieved if we make the investment that is necessary," Gordon Brown said."
After all, when the stock market increases due to us coming out of recession in July the pension deficit will reduce naturally anyway, and the whole fund does not have to be brought to a positive balance in one fell swoop.
I for one would have rather seen the money wasted on the temporary VAT reduction spent on modernising and securing Royal Mail, and reversing the 2,500 Post Office closures.
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Why is the Government claiming that it is behind the idea to part-privatise the post office?
EU Directive 2002/39 FORCES the UK government to give up its national monopoly of postal services AND caps the amount of subsidy it is allowed to give to postal services in the UK.
For this reason they have no choice but to privatise the Post Office and sell part of it off to another EU business.
Their problem is that they dare not tell the people of this country that they have no choice and that they are being directed by the EU. If they tell us the truth then we will start asking, quite rightly, who ACTUALLY governs the UK?
So, to save face Mandelson is pretending that he needs or wants to privatise the Post Office for economic reasons when, in reality, he has no choice.
Like 75% of our laws in the UK this one is driven by a bunch of un-elected bureaucrats in Brussels and Strasbourg. The UK Government doesn't have the guts to tell us the truth.... they don't run Britain the EU does!
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I have just read the report on the BBC news section about Harriet Harman's appearance on this morning's Andrew Marr show, which I missed. Talking about Fred the Shred's pension she said, "The contract may be enforceable in law, but not in the court of public opinion, which is where the government steps in." Hence, in the eyes of this government, the law as laid down is meaningless if it conflicts with popular sentiment or government grandstanding.
She is also quoted as saying that, " the Prime Minister has said that it is not acceptable, so it won't be." In other words, whatever the PM decides is what will happen, to Hell with the law or accepted conventions. Some democracy we live in.
Goodwin's pension may well be obscene, and his acceptance of it in full under the circumstances immoral, but if the law is on his side (because of ministerial ineptitude by the sounds of it) then we should all move on. Harman's remarks say two things to me:
1) The government is again doing and saying anything to deflect blame away from where it should properly reside - with the government.
2) The government does not believe in democracy (we already know that from their string of broken manifesto promises) but now it is showing that it does not accept the law of the land either.
The argument over the Royal Mail is clearly lost already under those circumstances. Frankly, we have even greater dangers ahead of us if that is the government position; it is only a small step from Harmans' words to the suspension of the electoral process, and another Long Parliament. If we cannot rely upon the law, what hope is there?
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Mandelson has ensured labours defeat at the next election
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the prince of darkness is up to his old tricks of scaremongering , telling the workers of the royal mail there pensions and jobs will be in danger, well it was brown who raided the pension fund mr mendalson, and i find it diffacult to see why the brown goverment can throw billion after billion at the banks and cant find anything to modernise the royal mail and keep it in the public interests, the unelected pm is totaly out of touch with the public on this one, and so is his cabinet living in there own worlds, and totaly out of touch with the people of this country.
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177. At 11:49am on 01 Mar 2009, MalcolmW2
It would be interesting to substitute Jacqui Smith's ACA for Fred Goodwin's pension and see if Harman and Brown are still of the same opinion!
Somehow I don't think they would!!
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Why are parliamentarians allowed to vote on privatisation of state owned companies, when they have shares and or vested interests in the new company that will take over the old one. This isn’t the first time they have sold out state owned companies and profited from the sale. Gas, Water, Electricity and Rail.
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Scrap tax relief on pension fund dividends (Brown 1997) + Pension Contribution holiday (1990 - 2003) + shackled by an interpretation of deregulation (Brown, again) which can only have rendered the competition speechless with gratitude + Government use of private mail carriers (£ 2 - 3 mill per year?) = Record £225 million profit for Royal Mail, that's profit. Not £17 gazillion loss. The reward for actually generating an income in such a hostile environment? Sold off by a twice disgraced unelected person.
Course has nothing to do with freeing up Government access to the £23 billion in the pension fund, ooh no, they (Govt) say the Royal Mail will collapse if their course of action is not followed. Mmmm, and Britain is best placed to ride out this period of global turmoil.
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So Harriet the court of 'public opinion' is to rule, according to a every major survey and poll on the subject, over 70% of people want to see the return of capital punishment.
EU Heads of Industry met discussed, and agreed a proposal on member countries 'protectionist' national mail delivery systems, the Heads of State passed the directive that under EU law MUST be legislated and enacted before the set time period of 5 byears has elapsed.
In reality the pension smokscreen is simply prime pedigree male cow manure ... otherwise New Labour would be a forced to indulge in a huge 'stramash' over Europe. Which some senior members of the Conservative Party might just rather enjoy ... and lets not mention the SNP.
A little political birdy tells me that questions are being asked about funding (which should already be in place) for PPP's/ PFI's, Commonwealth Games 2012 and Olympic Games 2014 ...
Presently the only alternative 'short term' funding option open to HMG UK could be EU/US/China ... and the US is quietly 'locking the cash register', China is getting ready for 'The Big Drop' ...
Why is the UK dropping Britannia from it's currency and why are our coins increasingly resembling those of the Single European Currency?
Hmmm obviously coincidence ...
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For those still in any doubt that the privatisation of Royal Mail is EU-related.
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2009/03/yesterday-in-parliament.html
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At 3:30pm on 09 Mar 2009, Sparklet wrote:184
Hmm, so I see, and thank you. And interestingly, not as such a great annoyance to the Opposition, Mr Cameron being visibly soft on Europe, soft on the causes (so to say) of Europe. But what possible electoral use a concurrence of view between Labour left and Tory right could be on such an issue is hard to fathom. Which is presumably why this privatisation is floating through.
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185. At 11:22am on 11 Mar 2009, solpugid
Just shows that Parliament is little more than a puppet show - they dance to the tune of their masters in Brussels
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Nick:
So, how do ministers answer the question I began with?
Sell the parts of Royal Mail that is not making money...And keep the money-making parts as government property...
~Dennis Junior~
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