"I'm sorry the iceberg was there"
Perhaps the song now needs to be rewritten. Sorry does not, after all, seem to be the hardest word.
Not, that is, if you're one of those billed as the "guilty men" of British banking facing trial by Select Committee.
They had their apologies scripted and ready.
However, the question was left hanging: "what are they sorry for?" For the consequences of banks' failures for shareholders, staff and customers certainly. What was much less clear, however, is that they accepted personal responsibility for causing those consequences.
This felt more like the captain of the Titanic saying "I'm sorry the iceberg was there" and less like "Sorry I steered the ship into the iceberg and promised you that it couldn't sink".
The point of these hearings is not, of course, merely to extract apologies but to learn lessons for the future. The MPs on the committee did not feel they'd learned enough.
Those who blame them should ponder how easy, say, John Humphrys, Radio 4's inquisitor in chief, would find it to interview four people at once while sharing the job with 13 of his colleagues.
Tomorrow, the committee will try to get to grips with those who are now running the banks.
It may well turn out that "the hardest word" for a banker is not sorry but "no" - as in "no, we won't be paying any bonuses".
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~41~RS~)
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Nick, Would not the Treasury Select Committee have been wiser and better informed if they had called before them Mr.Paul Moore. Rather than the chairman read out that persons memorandom. Especially before todays debate with the Bank bosses. The USA senate did this when they heard in person Mr. Markopolos, who shredded the regulators and laid bear the corruption and ineptitude within those departments. To a man the committee members thanked him for his evidence on behalf of the American public
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I guess the're not sorry about how wealthy they all are, regardless of their incompetence.
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Why no word from Gordon Brown.
When will he go before a select committee.
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But the iceberg didn't come from nowhere - it was there for all to see !
It wasn't difficult to identify that the vulnerability of HBOS to a collapse of a bank like Lehmans (as actually happened in 2008, of course) needed to be analysed ahead of time: see for example this comment of October 2007.
We heard a lot from them about the excellence of their risk management, but their stress-testing was delinquent in the extreme.
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#3 -- and yes that select committee should be in the form of the general public at the ballot box.
A general election is needed NOW.
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This is very trite but true: if a committee wants to examine a witness effectively it has to either allow one of its members to do it (there must be a purpose for all those barrister MPs) or have another lawyer do it for them. All the other ways - like to-day's - may be good television but miss the mark. And as television don't come close to real effective expert examination.
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Why was James Crosby not called? he was CEO of HBOS from 2001 to 2006, the period during which they were transformed from a "boring" mortgage bank into a risk-led player in all sorts of derivative markets.
Could it be because, after he left HBOS, he was appointed by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Gordon Brown, to lead the Government's Public Private Forum on Identity Management? Or could it be because it was the very same Chancellor of the Exchequer that recommended him for a Knighthood in 2006? Or could it be that he is a (Gordon Brown appointed) non-executive director of the FSA? Or could it be that in April 2008, Crosby was appointed by Chancellor Alastair Darling to head up a Working Group of mortgage industry experts to advise the Government on how to improve the mortgage market?
Or maybe they just haven't got round to him yet? I wonder when they will.
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Oh come on Nick,
Questioning people in commitee is what the TSC does all the time. They are paid extra to do it and have been doing it in most cases for quite some time.
That they learned very little has more to do with the quality of questioners and poor quality of the questioning than having 4 people sitting at a table in front of them.
If they are incapable of handling 4 at a time then perhaps they can adopt a mastermind format in future.
IMHO they were more concerned not to back any of them into a corner where the bankers would point the finger at the government and regulator. Toothless and gutless performance.
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Come on Gordon - say sorry and go.
Come on BBC - the Bankers are not all the story, it seems that the BBC are not training their guns on the politians who allowed this to happen
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Nick,
why is there still no word from you on Jacqui Smith's obscene grubbing of the public purse for her expenses?
They may not be against the rules but they are no more defensible than bankers' bonuses.
Stop being so myopic Nick, or people will begin to doubt your credibility and impartiality!
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Nick,
It would be nice to know from our leader on camera what he was told by this gang of 4 when he met with them over dinner.
Did he never question them about the huge mountian of debt that was being racked up within this country?
Did he never ask about the 5/6 times salary mortgages that were being sold or the self certification of personal income on mortgage applications? Or of the extraodinarily good credit deals being given to people with no assets.
Did he never ask if the level of debt in the Uk was sustainable? What did they tell him and when?
The Govt is calpable in all of this as well as the joint captains of the, "Titanic". Did he never ask why the ship was going straight towards the iceberg?
As seemingly the passenger on this trip, perhaps Gordon had gone to bed early and had missed the lead up to the crash!
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This is all trivia and sidelining.
Brown wants the world banks nationalised, run globally, in a world federal state. Total control, total fairness thinks he.
Remember, New World Order is about control, not capitalism.
Look up Aaron Russo on Youtube and his dealings with Rockafeller. Real eye opener in more way than one. Scary. Very scary.
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#3
Do not expext Gordie to appear anywhere to admit fsilure, because most of you get it totally wrong, HE IS NOT A STOTSMAN, HE IS A FIFER, there is a vast difference!
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The body language of the people concerned suggested to me that they were not being totally forthcoming with the answers.
Personally i think they should all be investigated fully into their personal involvement and finances....they were basically allowed to get away with trying to make us feel sorry for them when they stated they had lost money !!!!!
They didn't personally lose one penny.They just didn't get as much as they would have liked.
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Can you imagine Gordon Brown coming before a Select Committee and coming even close to an apology for his mishandling of The Economy. If pigs could fly.
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The really galling thing (of a great many galling things) is that for all these apologies, select committee hearings, royal commissions - there is bound to be one of those - and ponderous statements that 'lessons must be learnt', nothing, but nothing will change. Nothing. Nothing at all.
'Sir' Fred Godwin and 'Sir' Tom McKillop and all the other knights of the realm (and why, exactly, were they knighted?) will all make the appropriate noises, take early retirement, then slink off to their place in the Exmoor, or Cornwall or Powys or the Peak District, well padded with a wonderful pension subsidised by 'consultancy work' and running a quango. Others will take their place, accept a knighthood and the whole sorry state of affairs will continue.
We are living in cloud cuckoo land if we think any lessons will be read. The wide boys will continue and the rest of us can get stuffed.
I read today of a pensioner who once had £6,000 of HBOS shares, which were converted into Lloyds TSB shares and are now worth the princely sum of £250. All these nauseating apologies mean nothing to her. And, Nick, you know this is all true.
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The whole thing sounded contrived.
I didn't believe a single word of it.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PpMdTmVMpo
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Our government and most of our MP's are lawyers.
If they couldn't sort out the bankers contracts and bonuses, they've got no chance at sorting out the country?
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....and at least it takes the heat off the Government Expenses.....!!!
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What a bunch of DISINGENUOUS individuals
WHAT A PITIFUL EXCUSE FOR APOLOGY?
THESE MUPPETS KNOW NO BOUNDS!
WHEN WILL THE POLICE BE CALLED IN TO
INVESTIGATE THIS MESS??
HBOS HAS HAD SOLVENCY ISSUES SINCE
2001/2002 AS HAVE RBS/NATWEST.
TIME THESE GUYS FACED SOME MAXWELL
MEDICINE:BANKRUPTCY!!
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Nick,
why is there still no word from you on Caroline Spelman's obscene grubbing of the public purse for her Nanny expenses?
This may not be against the rules (actually it probaly is) but they are no more defensible than bankers' bonuses.
Stop being so myopic Nick, or people will begin to doubt your credibility and impartiality!
Also Nick can you find out why Angela Knight, former Tory Minister and current chairman of the British Bankers Association hasn't been called to answer some questions, there must be some culpabillity there too, come on Nick do your job!
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9 Blogpowell
I think Bush, sarkozy, Merkle, Putin, Berlusconi, Zapatero, Cowen, Taro Aso should all be called to our Select Committee. How did these clowns allow this massive coincidental recession happen just at the same time as Brown caused ours.
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Incompetence? What incompetence?
As far as I can see it has all gone to plan for these banksters. Except for the public swallowing their apologies.
Surely now Mr Brown and his other Bilderburg buddies needs to be questioned about this.
Theres nothing here but utter corruption that has potentially bankrupted the UK but the banksters will get to keep their yachts and secret offshore accounts and Brown etal will be their guest of honour on mistress' birthdays in the not so distant future when the rest of us will be wondering how to pay the next mortgage payment.
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#7 obangobang
Great post and very true - I'd be astonished if they don't eventually call Crosby, but he's not listed for the next meeting - more bankers.
See the HoC Treasury Committee: Meetings.
Next one is Wednesday 11 February, Wilson Room, Portcullis House, at 2.30pm grilling:
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The facts are that RBS has lost 20 billion on its ABN purchase, which was voted for by 90% of its shareholders.
It has lost another 20 billion on US mortgage-backed products.
Neither of the above were within the remit of the UK government or indeed regulators. Both were examples of pure greed.
The same goes for the losses of UBS and Citibank, the other two worst culprits.
When will one of you people with a political axe to grind not just wake up and accept that this has always been about the sheer naked overarching greed and machismo of a tiny number of top bank directors around the world- all they wanted was to say 'my bank's got more assets than yours'.
Probably never, because you appear to be suffering from a very similar delusion.
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It's a near equal outrage that Jaqui Smith (shiver down my spine) should be paying her sister rent from the tax payers purse.
The public need to vent thier anger on this so lets have a blog - or have you been told to stay clear of this one?
The good people of Redditch will surely not allow her another term as MP but I am afraid of all the 'policies' she is bound to rush through before she is jettisoned from power.
THIS UNELECTED GOVERNMENT STINKS - even the conservatives do look like a good alternative in comparrison. How bad will it have to get before a 'vote of no confidence'?
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The Shadow Chancellor has asked for an enquiry into the role of Mr Crosby, former chief at HBOS. He is right to do so.
I would like to see an enquiry into the links between Tory members of both Houses of Parliament and the City. In view of the fact that the Tories are 'bankrolled' by elements from city institutions, it would be interesting to know if any of the vast amounts of money that has been effectively stolen from the public has found its way into Tory coffers. Is young George likely to support such action?
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7. obangobang
Compare and contrast Channel 4's detailed coverage of this section of the Select Committee's inquiries of the former chief of HBOS James Crosby's activities, with the vague reference to Paul Moore (not even a name check) on the BBC.
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Just seen Channel 4 news and this story is going to get a lot more interesting.
They have the scoop this time and it appears that this is getting ever closer to Gordon Brown's bunker.
Many more developments to come.
Maybe we will get some answers after all.
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The more I hear about this financial catastrophe the more dumbfounded I am.
None of the top people at these banks appear to have any banking experience. Instead they seem to be glorified used car salesman rushing to get their noses in the trough and at the same time giving jobs to their pals so that they can also get on the gravy train.
On top of this two of the men who now appear to be prime movers in this mess (eg Hornby & Crosby )are being retained as advisers by the Government, no doubt on astronomical wages.
At least the bankers today have (grudgingly) admitted culpability in this financial mess. When is Gordon Brown going to do the same ?
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7 Obagobang
They just did. See channel 4 news tonight.
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Coverage on Channel 4 news much more comprehensive on events with the Select Committee today and events (Paul Moore) leading up to today.
John Snow is having difficulty in concealing his amazement at some of the subjects being discussed.
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Dear Nick,
When are GB, AD, EB and (2)HS going in front of this committee? Do they not have their own questions to answer?
Show trial anyone?
Xxxx
ps
Is it possible to sue an incompetent government?
2010
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At least on the Titanic, the Captain went down with the ship. These guys were the first in the lifeboats; and to hell with the women and children.
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Young Robinson said: "This felt more like the captain of the Titanic saying "I'm sorry the iceberg was there" and less like "Sorry I steered the ship into the iceberg and promised you that it couldn't sink"."
----- ----- ----- -----
As I never tire of saying, it was your buddy the Golem in Downing Street who said the ship couldn't sink, or, more properly, that he'd eliminated "boom and bust", so the economy couldn't sink.
No point blaming the bankers totally, when they had the top man at the Treasury telling them that the eternal boom was here, is there?
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Am I the only one who can't stand John McFall?
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The 2 cases (RBS and HBOS) are quite distinct. HBOS had an Applegarth-like incompetence. The business model was naive and flawed and it beggars belief that the FSA allowed them to continue.
RBS were wrecked by the egomania of Goodwin. A truly 1-trick pony who delivers others ideas. The Natwest takeover was a response to BoS bid and ABN a response to Barclay's.
They're damned by their own words - "sorry guv we didn't see it coming".
Why exactly were they paid the enormous sums they were? They're at the heart of the financial world, with it's insanely complex instruments, and they are paid to forsee the unforseen - why else would you pay them millions a year?
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thowee thaid the naughty sthcool bwoys veree thoftlty
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Ha such entertainment
Fat cat politicians trying to get fat cat bankers to answer straight forward questions on an embarassing topic.
Fantastic
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The least credible of the bankers was Hornby of the HBOS. He seemed incredibly aggrieved that he'd apologised several times and no-one seemed to believe him. (He probably feels that his wife doesn't understand him either.) Yet he is still allowed to recieve £60,000 pounds a month as a consultant. While this goes on, the system is clearly rotten.
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Nick,
We are told that these 4 un-wise men of whom each have NO Banking qualifications at all between them, that they each are Sorry for running the U.K.'s Banking System into the ground.
They have informed us that too the best of their knowledge they believe that all of the U.K.'s Banking problem's have been caused by dividing and further Sub - dividing over and over again all topic's of Financial risks into ever smaller and smaller parcel's, and selling these parcel's all around the World, to a point now where no one has any clue whatsoever as to how much in total the debt's and future interest on both the short, long and bad Debt's will be.
For their Champagne, and Rich life-style's, they are now sorry for the biggest Cock - Up in British Banking history, while million's of ordinary men and women are being made Unemployed, while also the useless 4 are quite happy to hold on to their past Golden hand - out's, and payment's while all the U.K. Taxpayer's bail-out the Banking System for their past mistake's.
Nice Work If You Can Get It.
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The FSA like other regulators set up by New Labour are only there to ensure the Fat Cats keep getting the cream.
It matter not if its Fuel/Money or anything else we have MP's that don't give a t*** for the man in the street and Ministers have an eye to their Job in the city when the plebs finially rumble New Labour, Suckers and Mugs are what the establishment think of the great smelly mass of British citizens, they have used the mushroom system on us for years...
Keep them in the dark and feed them s*** every morning'
MP = more please
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While the bankers have to accept their portion of the blame, why did the Government, including the former Chancellor, apparently stand by for 10 years and do nothing? It's all very well being angry now and pointing the finger at someone else - did they really have no idea of what was happening?
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Nick, if the bankers are saying "I'm sorry the iceberg was there", then what we need next is for the Sub-Prime Minister to say "I'm sorry I launched the iceberg"
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Yellowbelly
BTW Yellow, answered your questions on Bash a Banker at 290 but posed you some in return. Cheers.
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27 sapphire and steel
"THIS UNELECTED GOVERNMENT STINKS - even the conservatives do look like a good alternative in comparrison"
Three points:
1. The government was, I think, elected.
2. If you want to sort out the City and bankers etc, bringing in the Conservatives is not going to work, they are the City and the bankers under a political guise. It's like Sinn Fein / IRA but with bowler hats and lawyers.
3. I still think Sicilian should change his name to the 'Cheeseman of Eggington'.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Am I right in thinking that none of the members of the Finance Select Committe is a woman? One in six of the MPs nowadays is a woman. Given that women seem to be suffering more severely than men in terms of unemployment as a result of the credit crunch, it is particularly unfortunate that there are no women to question the multi-millionaires.
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@ 22. At 7:28pm on 10 Feb 2009, Eatonrifle wrote:
"Nick,
why is there still no word from you on Caroline Spelman's obscene grubbing of the public purse for her Nanny expenses?"
-----------------------------------------
Eaton, to answer your spurious question, Caroline Spellman did this for a short period of time in 1997. Then she stopped and has been subject to a full inquiry. The outcome of which will either be that she is cleared of all wrong-doing OR she will have to repay those (or a share of those) expenses ala Conway.
Why don't you ask Nick to ask about more recent and relevant misuse of public money? like the expenses claims by that senior minister in this Government that is based on the (at best) spurious claim that her sister's camp-bed is her main home.
That must make us look good internationally, that one of our senior minister's claims that her main residence is a spare room in her sister's terraced house.
This kind of dissembling is surely morally equivalent to benefit fraud and is utterly indefensible.
The fact that she turned down a state grace and favour flat, as an entitlement of her senior position, to live in diggs so she can claim a huge wad of cash instead can not sit well with your socialist tendencies can it?
Or is an old non-story from 1997 the best that you can do in terms of trying to smear the tories with sleaze?
What about the vastly more prevalent and relevant and recent and sizeable chunks of current labour sleaze? Cash for honours? Cash for amendments to law etc?
How myopic to labour's sleaze do you have to be to overlook selling out your parties POLICIES to the highest bidders???
Oh sorry, eaton, the labour party can do no wrong in your eyes can they? They are utterly and completely above board in all their grubby dealings and have never done a thing wrong ever.
Enjoy being in opposition for another generation...
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Now lets have a clear out, lets have the Prime Minister our ex Chancellor in front of the committee. He states that he had no Idea what the the American Banks were up to and he was the chancellor who set the terms of reference for the FSA. Cosy or what, how could the Chancellor not know how the financial sector worked?
This was the Chancellor who would have profitted from the tax take in certain areas. You make comparison to the Iceberg but please note that on that occasion it was dark, there were no binoculars and the captain had at least taken some kind of avoiding action and he went down with the ship. No chance of that with our erstwhile Prime Minister!!!
But perhaps the truth is that the Bankers did not know what they were doing in which case I will take no more of the private sector knowing better than the average man on the Clapham Omnibus. Fire the lot find some properly trained bankers and before the existant lot think they have got away with it they should be rehoused in normal housing, their piles can be sold to make up the shortfall.
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@ 18, Eaton, how can I make this so simple that even you understand how Brown IS responsible for OUR recession/depression....
OK how's this for an analogy...
Imagine a massive multiple car crash. Lots of vehicles involved. One car started the crash, but many of the other cars involved also played a vital part in the severity of the crash. The one driver that started the crash is NOT responsible for the actions of all the other drivers. However EACH driver is responsible for their own car.
If the drivers following the first car were driving too fast, not paying attention, driving cars that were not serviced properly and were not roadworthy, then they are each responsible for the severity of the damage to their own cars and are equally in part responsible for the overall severity of the whole crash.
Gordon Brown's changes to the banking system in 1997 was the equivalent of him loosening the brake cable. The failure to see how the unsustainable credit was building from 2001 was the equivalent of him slamming his foot on the accelerator whilst closing his eyes. His part in the crash IS HIS FAULT!!!
Brown IS responsible for how deep the global crash affects this nation. HE was the Chancellor for 10 years. HE deregulated the market in such a way that Eddie George had a stand up blazing row with Brown and Blair about it in 1997, warning them both about the likely outcome (which has now come to pass)
What is it about it being Brown's fault that you do not understand? Just because other nation's were equally as wreckless with international money as Brown was, does NOT exonerate Brown from the blame for things for which he IS accountable and responsible.
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" This felt more like the captain of the Titanic saying "I'm sorry the iceberg was there" and less like "Sorry I steered the ship into the iceberg and promised you that it couldn't sink". "
To me, this felt more like the Prime Minister saying "all our problems are due to a global recession" and "I'm angry with the bankers" and less like "I've steered the economy in a reckless manner" and "I've abolished boom and bust" and "we're well placed to weather the recession".
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22 and 23:
Good try but The Government can't expect to get away scot free in all of this!
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@ 26. At 7:53pm on 10 Feb 2009, MunichMadrid7980:
Of course the banks are at fault....However the fact is that Brown did make the problem worse by removing Bank of England oversight in 1997, then he encouraged as much gambling as possible on the premise that he had eliminated boom and bust and that inevitable and unending growth would continue in the economy for ever more. The banks business models worked on that ridiculous and unsustainable theory of economics.
The bankers were only doing what bankers ALWAYS do. Exploiting their naked and rampant greed for profit. That is what they do and it is what they are there for.
It is the Government's role to provide a framework to harness that greed and exploit it in a sustainable and as harmless a way as possible. THAT is what Brown failed to do. In fact he did the opposite.
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They havn't really apologized, neither have they taken responsibility proportional to what they have rewarded themselves, nor have they come clean with the why, who, how and where.
It is arrogance, greed and fear.
Arrogant that they believe they have and will get away with it, then, now and in the future. Greed to get and retain as much as they can, however it is done.
The puzzling bit is "fear". They are afraid. But who are they afraid of? Certainly not the UK public, nor the MPs, not the government, nor the PM, not even the media ... hhmmmm? Who and why???
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I can only assume all those here blaming Gordon Brown for this mess are younger than my 31 years and so have no memory of Thatcher and Reagan's part in all this. It is their ideology that kicked all this off: that unfettered free markets could solve all the ills of the world. They were demonstrably wrong. The only failure Gordon Brown is guilty of is the same failure we, and much of the rest of the world are guilty of: clinging to this one warped ideology. Tony Blair didn't have the balls, and neither does Brown to stand up and say that the free market can't solve all our problems and is actually the source of many of them. Thatcher and Reagan and all their greedy, fanatical followers have skewed political thought so far to their narrow-minded view of the world that it's taking events like these for people to finally start thinking about alternatives. Once we get past people's belief and misguided desire to "get back to normal" then maybe we can all start living back in the real world again. Something which we've failed to do since I was a boy in the 80s.
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22#
Eaton;
You are funny mate. Like the little boy trying to put his finger in the dyke to stop it flooding, whilst the raging torrents are up around his neck.
Compared to the stuff that is coming out now that has happened on Gordon's watch, what has been alleged about Spelman has paled into insignificance....
Still, someones got to defend 'em eh??? :-))))
besides Nick, I mean!!!
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Always remember that the majority of really good professionals in finance, politics, government or most fields are not leading as we (the public) are easy to give our money, vote and confidence to any trickster or good blagger.
The committee even if it has good intentions is the least ineffective way of controlling a bunch of people with minimum scruples.
Enjoy the monsters we created!!!
Our children will laugh and may also cry lookign at how foolish we have been to allow such crimes.
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Munich#
Dont be a twonk mate, you know full well why.
Nobody is doubting the fact that there has been greed in the sector. No-one here is absolving the guilty parties in the sector.
The mud that unfortunately sticks is the allegations surrounding James Crosby for a start, the setting up of the tripartite system, which happened on Gordons watch, the rushed bail-out, which was meant to have strings attached, only someone forgot to attach the strings before it happened... there is an undeniable political element to it that is unescapable.
Much as you hate the Tories, and you know me by now, I'm not convinced they're going to be any better, you cannot deny that the conditions that allowed this situtation to develop, the light touch regulation, the tripartite system the "no more boom and bust" the "I would resist the call for tighter regulation" - it all happened on Gordon's watch. Now there is apparent disunity between Gordon and the man who was effectively his deputy chancellor for 10 years... Labour have lost control of the situation. Doesnt matter a thing about the Tories. They've got nothing to do with it.
You cannot seriously be thinking/trying to sell the line that those greedy city boys created this monster to stitch Gordon up and deliver an election victory to their Bullingdon mates???
Surely, even you couldnt be that paranoid.
Gordon was in charge, as chancellor and as PM.
For ten years he was the pidgeon.
Now its his turn to be the statue. There aint no getting away from it, no way of spinning out of this one. It is inescapable.
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38 MadofHitchin rightly questions why the top dogs at RBS/HBOS did not see it coming. Purely because the City, investment community, govt and very especially the City journalists kept praising them. Just remember how much grief Lloyds TSB got from the City pages for being boring and not delivering the profits of RBS/ HBOS among others. Except that Eric Daniels was largely vindicated in the end especially as he is a banker - surely not??. The City supported the global aspirations of RBS and HBOS was pushed to break the grip of the Big Four - all in the name of competition. Yes, the warning signs were there if anyone cared to deal with them but the entire system failed because it suited everyone. We still fondly believe that those getting to the top must be intellectually superior but nothing is farther from the truth.
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I think your "Titanic" analogy is a little misleading, Nick ... at least Capt. Smith had the guts to go down with his ship. You wont see any of these city slickers going down without a damned great golden handshake.. if you really want to extend the analogy, the banksters taking the billions of taxpayers money and paying each other obscene bonuses, is as if, having struck the iceberg, Smith and his crew commandeered all the lifeboats and left the passengers to go down with the ship.
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#35 ... apologies.. I spooled right past your comment without reading it
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It was hardly riviting watching the side show with the politicians trying to get to grips with an event that is now old news. The business model was flawed and they did not see the problems building up. I was in the states in Nov 06 and already the housing market bubble was deflating. How those in power missed it all is incredible. Nobody wanted to believe it could end. In Apriil 2007 we go out of everything and we are just your average Joe so how come these guys were still doing deals with massive leverage/debt?
The goernment did not want the ecomnomy to slow and thought that people like Crosby knew what they were doing. They still do, and that is the real problem.
What part of there is no money do these guys not get? Brown wants he banks to return to 2007 lending volumes. Is that not where we really fell off the cliff?
It is all very frightening, we have Brown saying nothing of consequence, no mention of his part in all of it, no idea what to do, rushing around making soundbites (we have all progressed a bit now and expect more. I am not interested in the side show, ministers muttering asides and you trying to explain what the uneducated are unable to articulate.....he does not need you to interpret for him. Either he deserves to be heard or not, and we can take it from there.
What right have they to preach morality when they passed the expense system in such a way that they can hide how they steal our money?
Roll on the election and hope that we can demand of the new government transparency.
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I defend the bankers. Bankers are there to borrow and lend money for the benefit of their customers. They have been doing just that rather successfully and that has benefitted the whole world in recent years.
The easy credit policy was provided by the Central Banks as pointed out today by Tim Gietner the new US Treasury Secretary. By far the biggest culprit was Alan Greenspan .
Whilst Ben Benancke and Mervin King tried to deflate the housing bubble and put an end to easy credit before they led to a crash others were still trying to inflate the bubble (Gordon Brown was insisting that banks provide fixed rate mortgages for life).
It is the job of Government to govern. Those on the Finance Select Committee should have been the ones worrying about the upside and downside of easy credit, PFI, student loans, National Debt, personal debt and lack of savings.
We have enjoyed a boom but it has been a psuedo-boom. We couldn't afford those new hospitals, the 118 new schools built last year and the massive public sector pay rises. We and our servants, the Government, drove up GDP by spending the income of the next generation today and then congratulating ourselves for having produced 10 years of growth. But this was psuedo-growth because it was all on credit and our servants even snatched £200b from future pensions by removing pensions tax credit.
As we go into the future with a massive new dollop of National Debt how shall we repay it when we are paying off £216b of PFI, student loans of as much as £30,000 and £200b less in the pension pot.
The bankers who are suffering from the bursting of the State sponsored credit boom should ask Mr. McFall if he voted for PFI, student loans, tuition fees, the removal of pensions tax credit and the 70/30 rule that led to so few new houses being built.
World economic crises are made with easy credit and bankers are only an actor on the stage running with the script. The script was writen by our servants who secured re-election and glory with a growing GDP that was entirerly pseudo, jam today.
The way forward is already underway. Asset prices are correcting. The $3,000t of toxic assets has now reduced to $2,200t. Easy credit that was good for our misguided servants and bad for the bankers has disappeared as bankers correct their balance sheets much to the shagrin of our over interventionist servants.
You cannot buck the market with an economic stimulus package such as the one just approved by our interventionist sevants in the US. Recent history tells us that Mr. Bush did the same thing in April last year and it only led to a modest boost in US consumer spending in May and that was it. The new economic cycle is to repair balance sheets and that means not spending but paying off your debt. The housewife, the debtor, the small businessman and the mortgagee will all do this. Unfortunately, our interventionist servants will do the opposite and bulldose yet more schools and rebuild them making our children's debt to pay for our jam our main priority. We shall save and not spend.
I have mentioned the word "interventionism" a few times. Interventionism replaced capitalism some 150 years ago when Karl Marx was explaining that capitalism would lead to a revolution as the rich got richer and the poor got poorer. It is not the extinct capitalism that is causing the problem but interventionism gone mad at the expense of the Golden Goose, industry, including the poor bankers having to say sorry to the interventionists for spoiling their pseudo boom.
Where has all the money gone? Look no further than your house. You took all the money with your house price appreciation, your home equity release, your new conservatory and your filing for bankruptcy. You were caught up in a house price bubble whilst the Golden Goose was starved of investment to employ your children in an ever more competitive world. Bankers helped you gain all that wealth and provided our biggest industry, invisible earnings and tax take. You loved the the bankers and our interventionist servants loved them even more. The Golden Goose went to China with its naked Capitalism. You had magic money,credit, and China could gain 100 years of motor manufacturing experience from 22,000 containers of machine tools from Rover when Rover couldn't pay its council tax bills because we liked benefits rather than doing the work we gave to quest workers with a capital "W".
The cause of our problems is interventionism and one of the victims is bankers here and across the world. Your wealth is in your home but it is overvalued by a factor of 3. You knew it was overvalued when the average price of a house was 9.3 times the average income and the average age of a first time buyer was 33. You knew that your interventionist servants were continuing to inflate the house price bubble and sucked in 1m buy-to-let buyers when first time buyers were priced out of the market. You knew that someone had to pay student loans off, pay off £216b of PFI and manage with a £200b shortfall in the pensions pot. You knew we had an ageing population to support and yet the cost of the NHS doubled on an apples for apples basis for a reduction in productivity, GPs salaries increased by 50% in one year, the Police were driving expensive German cars rather than Vivas and teachers were driving 4x4s rather than A35s and retiring earlier because of stress because some parents convinced their children that benefits were the future rather than education.
What was John McFall thinking about when we charged him with governance and the servant of the people? Give me bankers rather than interventionism gone mad any day.
Regards,
David Lilley
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Dear Nick
It is really sickening that the Home Secretary who is doing her best to make this a police state will steal from the tax payer by perverting the Parliamentary rules to obtain the maxumum advantage from them. It is a disgraceful example of one rule for the establishment and another for the rest.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
i can't quite work out who is worse. The contrite and rather stomach churning bank executives or the pious government ministers making them squirm. I don't pretend to understand the inner dealings of the banking system and the government but it simply strikes me they saw it happening and stood and watched. Perhaps they should be sitting on the same side as the bankers and us poor folk who are now working twice as hard to make a living should be sitting there making them all squirm
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I agree with the various posters' comments about the honourable (sic) Home Secretary.
Are all all family heirlooms, treasured possessions, children's drawings etc etc kept at her sister's home in London? I suspect not, more likely at the family home in the West Midlands. I rest my case.
Probably best to resign now dear.
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I deplore the short sightedness of the bankers along with the greed, credit and false promises they made. But how do they differ from Gordon Brown, our (unelected) Chief Executive?
He built a reputation on capitalising on the boom years, of claiming no more "boom and bust", of recommending Knighthoods for key members of the banktocracy, of saying the brilliant stewardship of the economy was down to him.
The Labour controlled Treasury Select committee should call him as a witness and ask him if he foresaw the economic catastrphe, to explain the lack of regulation and why he appointed to the FSA the man who sacked the whistleblower at HBOS who told his colleagues they were heading for disaster. Nick
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Stop wingeing and do something, folks.
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Dear Nick,
People have been comparing what Balls said and the Great Depression of the 30's.
Just a quick point but.....
... that depression ended with the galvanised economies across the world fighting WWII.
If history is repeating itself and this is far worse..........
...........the Mayan caleder ends in 2012,
WWIII anyone!
Just a point.
Xxxx
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No 61 and what did Eric Daniels get for his prudence at Lloyds TSB? He got lumbered with HBoS. It hardly seems fair does it? Especially since HBoS is hardly worth anything at all and Lloyds TSB overpaid rather than back out and face the wrath of the Golem.
Eric Daniels has been shafted good and proper. It'll take years to sort out the mess at HBoS by the Golem's best buddy Sir James Crosby.
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Time to stop trying to apportion blame or score (pointless) points....surely better now to address the way forward (and do that right!).
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This felt more like the captain of the Titanic saying "I'm sorry the iceberg was there"
and less like
"Sorry I steered the ship into the iceberg and promised you that it couldn't sink".
But Nick, this is just what Brown is doing.
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57. At 10:38pm on 10 Feb 2009, Bransby wrote:
I can only assume all those here blaming Gordon Brown for this mess are younger than my 31 years and so
Something which we've failed to do since I was a boy in the 80s
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
No I was a man in the 80's and it has nothing to do with anyone other than Brown Blair and Labour in general.
They have been in power for 12 years.
They created the regulatory frame work that caused this, they are to blame.
You will just have to wake up and smell the coffee
THIS WAS CAUSED BY BROWN.
DON'T VOTE LABOUR THEY DESTROY THE ECONOMY EVERY TIME THEY GET THEIR HANDS ON IT
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Why has my comment been referred?!!!
I am a taxpayer and have justified concerns about where this money goes. I am well within my rights to demand Jacqui Smith be fired.
Her actions in any other walk of life would be deemed fraud and she would be imprisoned.
I am disgusted by yet more evidence of snouts in the trough of our MP's and want to see action, the fact that they have the gall to criticise bankers for being greedy would be comical if it didn't enrage me so much.
Nick, try reporting on the real story, it's probably past time for you to start sucking up to the next government, I'm surprised the survival instinct hasn't kicked in already.
Thank God labour are dead men walking, even with expected postal vote rigging they will be hammered at the next GE. What do you think will happen to all their apologists then...?
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It was patently obvious these discredited bank directors only apologised for expediency sake. They should be extremely worries as there could be strong cases for apparent criminal negligence in their operations. Ignorance of the law is no defence. It is not beyond the remit of the law to bring such miscreants to justice.
The allegations by Mr. Moore, former head of risk at HBOS, that he was fired by Crosby, then its Chief Exec, have grave implications.
If Crosby apparently ignored warnings from Moore about impending risks, he is apparently grossly negligent. It also spells danger for Brown who subsequently appointed him as Deputy Head FSA.
After Brown fatally removed the regulatory powers from the Bank of England to monitor other banks use and misuse of financial instruments; he created the FSA, a substitute organisation with Crosby as its Deputy head. As events have transpired, Crosby again and his Board failed to recognise danger signals.
As Crosby is one of a coterie of advisors to the PM, it demonstrates poor judgement on Brown's part to entertain such incompetence.
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I'm surprised no-one else has brought this up.
Your comment :-
This felt more like the captain of the Titanic saying "I'm sorry the iceberg was there" and less like "Sorry I steered the ship into the iceberg and promised you that it couldn't sink".
isn't quite right.
If the captain HAD steered the Titanic into the iceberg the opinion of most naval experts is that the ship would have survived or at least taken much longer to sink as only one or two compartments would have been affected. However, as he tried to avoid the iceberg. it ended up scraping down the ship and caused damage that allowed water into 5 or 6 compartments, dooming the ship.
One other thing. Why no mention of the other culprits in this?
I refer, of course, to the estate agents who fulled the boom by encouraging people to look upon houses as a short-term profit maker and not a long term investment. If they hadn't artificially inflated prices the banks wouldn't have lent so much and we wouldn't have so many people struggling to pay their debts!
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#78 It's been happening to me a lot lately too, viva la democracy! It seems freedom of speech only counts so long as you're not saying anything too controversial.
As for the bankers and the committee, I can't help but feel that this is little more than a stage show. As Nick points out, the bankers had all pre-scripted their apologies, and all that was left for them to do was perform their lines well on the day.
Their performance was trite and insincere and I doubt any of them have a future in the thespian arts. I suspect their futures are more likely to involve golden handshakes and retiring to their respective tax havens.
Meanwhile the real culprit carries on at No.10 steering the ship into every iceberg he can find before it can sink, laughing as his passengers scream.
Call an election.
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Why does this 'closing of the barn door after the horse has bolted' exercise need to be so public. Lessons should be learned but MPs are not the best interrogators in this scenario because they lack banking expertise. They are more interested in promoting party allegiances. This whole charade is just a sop for The General Public so that The Government can point the finger at others in order to deflect attention away from their partial responsibilty for the total lack of regulatory discipline in the big financial institutions.
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The whole thing is a farce to try and make everybody feel better. Does it? Who gives a flying buttress who is to blame (except we know that Gordon's position is now untenable)?
We need to clear the decks of this rubbish Labour fandango and get the new lot in to fix it.
A new tide of action, enthusiasm, acumen and general well-being for the country.
So many of us are sick of the status quo but are bound by our (so-called) democratic laws.
To hell with it, let us vote!!!!
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#78 #81
Ditto my #71
I posted two similar submissions, one on RP's blog, the other here. RP's contained a spelling mistake inverting two letters of McKillop's name, this one was reduced to the core accusation. As both were suppressed, I can only conclude that the BBC is actively involved in the conspiracy they admitted to. Please stop posting here as it may be taken to include you.
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#82:
I think The Independent agree with me.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mark-steel/mark-steel-new-labour-encouraged-every-aspect-of-this-avarice-1606275.html
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Lost in these comments is my warning to you all for the umpteenth time that this "apology" was staged and acted.
What you must all REALLY think about is that Brown and those whom he can coerce around the world is hell bent on revolutionising the world into a NEW WORLD ORDER.
He wants the world banks nationalised and in control globally. He wants a central government to control the world.
Look it up on Google and Youtube. New World Order.
If enough people tumble him he will have to water down his plans.
Saying he will create thousands more jobs for those who have lost their jobs is just one of his ploys. He wants most people in the private sector so he can control them too.
He is a dangerous, secretive and unsafe Prime Minister to have - and he was not elected by the people no matter which way you look at it so neither was this government because he appointed his ministers.
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In case you need further clarification Please Please Please read this:
http://antireptilian.blog.co.uk/2008/01/08/gordon_brown_and_the_new_world_order~3546786/
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#85
Excellent article that one, well worth a read! If only we had some journalists here equally willing to hold this government to account!
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obang:
Finally Sir James Crosby is being fingered:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5705212.ece
But when will he and Gordon Brown be called before the commons select committee?
This crisis is in itself an argument for reform of the upper house and the appointment of a supreme court.. which is where these people should be being questioned right now...on oath.
The CEO of Banesto in Spain who led his bank to a similar state to HBOS and RBS in 93/94 is still behind bars.. why are the four 'bankers' who stood before the select committee yesterday not on trial for gross misappropriation of shareholders' money?
Call an election.
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#26 munichmadrid7980
"The facts are that RBS has lost 20 billion on its ABN purchase, which was voted for by 90% of its shareholders.
It has lost another 20 billion on US mortgage-backed products.
Neither of the above were within the remit of the UK government or indeed regulators."
Surely as UK registered companies, resident within the UK, formed under and regulated under UK law, listed on a stock exchange based within the UK, operating financial systems within the UK primarily for and on behalf of UK citizens, they are within "the remit" of the UK government?
The safety and well-being of UK citizens is within the remit of the UK government and these banking companies operate a system that is integral to that safety and well-being. Surely that brings it within their remit in some small way?
If it wasn't in their remit, how come MPs are allowed to now ask them questions regarding it? Has the UK government's remit changed in the last six months?
If you are simply saying that this was not regulated in any way because it was never decided to regulate them, that is different.
If the transactions are outside the remit of the regulators, that is the fault of whoever set their remit.
I imagine that the story behind this situation is full of people who can say that these events were outside their remit.
Whose remit was it exactly to regulate these companies?
May I remind you that all companies have a duty to try to protect their profits for their shareholders? Saying their motivation is pure greed is almost tautological.
That's why governments should be required to regulate companies that operate vital services.
What sort of idiots would let profit motivated individuals run the financial system without a thought to the safety and integrity of that system?
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#7 obangobang
Excellent post.
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#18 87 Flamepatricia
You have really opened my eyes this morning with these clips. Scary......................
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If we are going to use the Titanic analogy then the Government would have to be the owners who proudly claimed that the economy could never sink. Their hype meant more people bought tickets and therefore sank with the ill fated depression sorry recession.
Well I guess it’s nice to have a scapegoat, it’s either the American’s fault or the bankers fault (probably American bankers), well that’s okay then. It seems no one else is to blame, yeah right, its not as if the general public didn’t lap up the “free” credit when they were offered it, didn’t lie on their mortgage applications, didn’t decide that they had to have a new bigger house or car every other year, is it? The general public apparently are such a group of brain dead sheep that they could not realise that having more debt than they could pay back was going to lead to problems. In some ways these same brain dead sheep deserve everything they get, either they are too stupid to run their own budgets or they have decided that despite everything that they can blame someone else for their mistakes. That the people they can blame are rich, fat blokes in suits makes things even better, the green eyed monster gets its gleeful revenge.
As for these bankers not being actual bankers, well strike me down with a pillow, really? You see I assumed that since every boss of a car manufacturer is a qualified engineer who knows the ins and outs of the combustion engine, that every manager of a financial institution would be a former bank teller! These people are business men and managers, in it solely to make them and the company money, the same parasites that sit on the board of every large company. Surely those posters who work know exactly the type of manager I mean, the bloke who comes in knows nothing about what you actually do and takes all the money and credit?
I am not saying that the bankers are not at fault, they got greedy, they used loop holes to take risks that apparently even rocket scientists didn’t really understand. What I am saying is that there is an apparent tendency is for people to take the easy option and plant the whole blame on them, rather than take responsibility for their part of the current crisis.
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#37 Sicilian29
No you certainly aren't. Not direct or hard enough in his questioning and his anger appears contrived to me.
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At 10:38pm on 10 Feb 2009, Bransby wrote:
I can only assume all those here blaming Gordon Brown for this mess are younger than my 31 years and so have no memory of Thatcher and Reagan's part in all this.
You were in junior school when Reagan and Thatcher were in power!
If you're going to peddle nonsense - at least first do the maths.
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(Tranferred from an older blog)
I am staggered at the crass insensitivity, amazing arrogance, and obscene greed shown by executives of taxpayer-rescued banks in even considering the payment of bonuses. I am equally disappointed with a government enquiry which will not report until the end of the year. This is yet one more example of dithering, indecision, and failure to understand the general public's feelings on the issue.
I am also appalled by the way in which the Home Secretary has claimed taxpayers' money for expenses relating to what are her first and second homes. When someone claims that what they have done is quite 'legal', I am minded to consider that it is also morally questionable.
No doubt banking executives and certain members of the government would consider that they run 'tight ships'. As I have mentioned in blogs before, I would agree with Doctor Spooner had he expressed things in exactly the same way.
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#42 LondonHarris
Their qualifications for running the Banks look similiar to the Government Front bench. So......if it can happen in the Banks it can happen in Government !! Oops it already has
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Look, all this talk and tv on the contrition of the bankers is froth. A pebble thrown into the water to distract you all.
What you should be calling for is Brown to be cross questioned live on tv on his motives.
The purpose of government is to serve the people.
He does not think that does he? It is staring you all in the face. Don't be sidelined by climate change, contrite bankers etc ad infinitum. His "baby" the financial services authority did not do their job - why? I wonder why? You should wonder why too!
He has a master plan right under your noses and you are so niave you are missing it.
How many more times can I tell you. all? Act now.
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I'm right looking forward to Gordon Brown's appology for running the British economy into the ground.
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Re SORRY by the bankers
Anyone can say sorry - what does it really mean. It seems to be so easy to say for so many people now and it's real meaning being discredited.
As the saying goes - talk is cheap; actions speak louder than words - lets see some good and decent responses and actions.
One good deed is better than 100 good intentions (another brilliant phrase we should all aim for).
Personal responsibility should be accepted if they are to personally financial gain in such outlandish, significant amounts.
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The PM should be the one in front of the comittee, not the bankers. Can we really blame them for pursuing maximum profits and lining their own pockets?
It's the FSA and ex-chancellor who should have been reigning them in. He knew full well what was going on with the banks and their excessive risk-taking. Gordon was more than happy to turn a blind eye and continue raking in stamp duty and corporation tax to fund his social engineering policies (and to rig enough debt-based "growth" to win the 2005 election).
An absolute outrage that he hasn't capped/scrapped bonuses like they've done in other countries. The country is a dead man walking whilst this government are still in charge.
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Bisto drinker:
New Labour love a society called the Fabian Society. This is what drives them. New World Order is all part of it.
All this chattering about icebergs etc is of no consequence. Please everybody look at the main mission Brown has. At least look at it and make up your own minds.
If his New World Order has a noble cause then it could be fine
However,
It has scary, controlling and sinister connotations. Why is not more high focus?
Why will he not set out its purpose in a live TV debate (with the questions set from all political parties and members of the public - not the BBC)?
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55 dogz and 60 fubar
Of course I don't believe that this was not dreamt up by Tory City boys in order to discredit Brown. Not even Brown himself would say or believe that kind of nonsense.
In fact, the ordinary (largely Tory) City boy had very little to do with it, as did the ordinary (largely Tory) Corporate Financier, and indeed our old friends the (largely Tory) Estate agents. None of the above were to blame. Yes, Dogz, people such as these will always exploit any set of parameters they are given. And rightly so, good luck to them.
What we ought to be looking at is the decisions taken at strategic levels within banks which led to the collapse of some [not all, even some US banks who ought to have been heavily affected by what has happened over there, like JP Morgan, appear to have survived].
The purchase of ABN by RBS, at a time (2007) when RBS was already chocker with assets. Completely over-the-top. Cost: 20 billion so far.
Were the changes made in 1997 responsible for RBS directors' decision to recommend the purchase of ABN? Nah.
Was it the pursuit of greed and glory by the same directors? Yeah.
What of the losses [20 billion to date] made by RBS on US mortgage-backed products? Did the changes made in 1997 encourage RBS directors to believe that bonds yielding 6.5% when rates were 1% could possibly be risk-free? Nah.
Was it sheer wishful-thinking and a complete misunderstanding of risk? Yeah.
The same process appears to have been taking place within Citibank, UBS, Merrill Lynch, Lehmans, and to a lesser extent Barclays and plenty of European banks.
No system for regulation could have prevented such actions by bank directors, short of the kind of massive co-ordinated state intervention we have seen by all the developed economies since October.
No-one in the west really wants to live in a world that is so controlled by governments
that bank A cannot buy bank B, or hold certain classes of assets.
Unfortunately, banks have been shown to be so central to our free democratic societies that they cannot be allowed to fold en masse.
The conclusion is not more regulation of banks by bodies such as the BOE or the FSA, banks will always get around these by doing their business elsewhere in the world, if necessary.
The only solution is more taxpayer control at senior levels within all deposit-taking banks [the ones we have to bail out]. Not perfect, but it's got to happen, and it's got to stay that way long-term, whoever is in office.
You're free to carry on blaming Brown as much as you like...but doesn't the fact that almost exactly the same situation has occurred in banks all over the world make you think even one bit that it might not all be any one person's fault? How did Brown's actions in 1997 affect, for example, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in the US?
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Extract below from link below re Gordon Brown and his globalisation aims:
After the infamous and strange “we need a new world order to combat climate change” speech,
And the “I believe that we need nothing less than a modern Marshall Plan for the new world.” comment in the speech to the RIIA, and the “need to make globalisation work for all by building an alliance for economic and social justice and environmental care - an essential element of the new world order”, it was with amazement, that I heard him say that the primary function of government is the safety and security of its people and the national interest. No Gordon, the primary aim of government is to serve the people.
http://antireptilian.blog.co.uk/2008/01/08/gordon_brown_and_the_new_world_order~3546786/
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#93
David
I agree with you in part.
The problem was that too many (of us, Joe public) thought that the value of their homes would continue to increase year on year and therefore high levels of personal debt were really not too much of a problem. (I didn't, but then I'm old enough to know that if something seems too good to be true, it generally is).
Where I have a problem with your analysis is that the bankers and politicians seem to have bought into the same model.
Now call me old fashioned, but don't these people earn the big bucks and have the power respectively because they (I'm told) have special insights/knowledge about these things.
If they are as easily suckered into believing that investments can go up as well as up then why the big bucks, why the power?
The kind analysis is that they were overpaid and power hungry fools.
The unkind analysis is that a credit fueled boom suited the government and the bankers. The government to stay in power, the bankers to fund their lifestyle.
Which one is it?
Regards
Ron
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# 37 and # 94
John McFall is a busy man - had appointments with Channel 4 news and Newsnight - he's probably a bit weary!
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OK here is my last effort.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nD7dbkkBIA
I give up now.
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No86 Flaimpatricia
The Prime Minister was elected in the same way as all the other MPs. It may be of interest to you to realise that we do have over 700 parliamentarians that were not elected. It was recently reported that they can claim up to £350 per day, not for doing anything, but just for turning up. Can you let me know the names of PMs who have not appointed ministers? It is a rather strange claim that you make in your final paragraph.
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No99 CaptainJuJu
Do you agree with the view that only fools think politicians run free - market economies? Try and have a word with Lord Black, Mr Madoff or the former CEO of Lehman Bros. They will help you to clarify your thinking.
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Flame 98.
Master plans, eh, of the world domination type, I see- ok so he's got one eye, and I dare say an underground bunker, but no white cat and Darling makes a pretty poor Oddjob. And Mandy as the double-agent? Well, you do have a point there I suppose...
So the question is, who is the real Scaramanga / Blofeld / Goldfinger? Who is holding Brown's (and presumably Bush's until recently) strings?
Tell us Flame, is it the Freemasons? Murdoch? Martians? Who are the New World Order? Is it Spectre or Smersh?
And who is going to play Bond and save us 'umble free citizens, ideally while dressed to kill in black tie and tailcoat?
Is he a man with a plan to defeat the master plan, by any chance?
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103. Munich
Don't be naive! America "started it with Fanny Mae ...etc"
It started years and years ago but mostly with George Bush's father - yes the FIRST George Bush - wanting a new world order.
Bush Jnr (the latest one) continued on his father's wishes and along with Blair they started a war in Iraq (nothing to do with 911) to gain control of the oil fields.
Now they want a One World Government with the banks in control.
The other world leaders are or have studied at the same socialist school. Get it?
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Well done Mr Robinson, Campbell + Mandy will think.
You completely sidestepped the allegations by the former HBoS risk manager that he was sacked and gagged by the former HBoS CEO who now is a prominent Brown adviser and FSA vice-chairman. The former HBoS risk manager claims that HBoS was growing too risky too fast. Now there's a story, and MR Robinson your not digging into it. Not on Campbell's orders I hope.
Perhaps you can also weigh up digging into whether the former HBoS CEO advised Brown to persuade Lloyds to merge with HBoS; would not surprise me.
Regards
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Re HBoS, Crosby and Brown,
The fomer HBoS risk manager will prove quite a tough guy to cage. He used to be a barrister. No doubt he has all the paperwork ready when push comes to shove. He would not have gotten the pay-out + gagging order from HBoS if their was nothing to it me thinks. Anyway, his memo to the treasury select committee is souldestroying for anyone who thought senior HBoS management was up to the task:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7882581.stm
The FSA soon will have an empty vice-chairman seat, or a newly filled one; Crosby should do a McFall!!
Ridiculous, that the FSA was told by the former risk guy who told about HBoS's risk appetite also looked into how his sacking came about.
Brown in 2006: "no need for a paneuropean regulator". Hah!
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Of course Labour love the Fabien Society, since they helped form the labour party. Not sure what the Fabien Society has to do with NWO, after all they are not what you call new.
Munich: The risk models used by the banks were highly sophisticated mathematical models designed by mathematicians rather than bankers (a trend started back in the 1970’s), some of these were developed literally by rocket scientists (which would return part of the problem back to the governments since these scientists should be employed in a space program). These models led to two major issues: One – the only people who really understood how they worked were the geeks that invented them. This meant that the people actually using them didn’t really understand how they worked or the risks involved. Two – Theoretical mathematicians are bright folks, but bright people especially ones so focussed are not known for they common sense (my sister is a virologist, bright, very good on virus’s, common sense of a shrew). These people assumed that they understood all the risks involved, forgetting the real world does not work like a maths problem.
So you had super intelligent people confident that their own genius had solved all the problems, selling products and theories no one else understood to greedy suits who wanted to make as much profit as possible.
Every recession has unique causes and one overriding cause that remains constant. Each recession is has a solution, a new model, that appears to fix the reasons that caused all the previous recessions. The constant cause is hubris and greed, each time the new generation believes they are smarter and have solved the problems other people were too stupid to understand (a bit like the fact that each generation believes they invent sex), meaning that can make money with no real risk.
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We appear to be going round and round in ever decreasing circles with some people on this blog. Of course the banks around the world are experiencing the same problems as The UK banks and Gordon Brown is not solely to blame for our present Economic Crisis. He is however partially to blame for the lending and borrowing frenzy which makes us in The UK the worst placed to cope with the Crisis. Unlike the bankers who to their credit have apologised for their part in this Gordon Brown has consistently refused to acknowledge the merest semblance of blame for the policies which helped to fuel the credit bubble. Throughout this time in relation to his own spending and the work of the regulators he was in fact the 'do nothing man' a now discredited phrase he loves to use to taint The Opposition.
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I guess every BBC reporter is going to ask Mr McFall the following questions today:
1. Will you be hearing the former HBoS risk guy? (I now the guy wrote a devastating memo)
2. Will you be hearing the the former HBoS CEO, currently FSA vice-chairman and adviser to Brown+Darling, about the sacking of the former HBoS risk guy and subsequent gagging of him?
3. Will you be hearing Mr Blank who initiated the Lloyds-HBoS merger? Was it Brown after being told by Crosby that HBoS was about to implode?
I know Campbell tries to persuade you not to ask these questions, but they just might be relevant.
Come on you lot, be investigative reporters rather than Campbell puppets!
Cheeriu
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Brave Souter
Are these people called Ministers Without Portfolio?
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Munich:
Trying to post a reply, but this crap browser keeps on telling me I cant.
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Ed Balls and now Mervyn King, talking down the economy.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7883255.stm
If Mervyn King cancelled his speaking engagements for the past 18 months, Sterling would be about 20% up on other currencies. Add to that the efforts of the Chancellor and Ed Balls to 'talk down the economy'.
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It is surprising to me that MPs should imagine that men of probity with sharp pencils were still watching over our finances.
They have been bred out since Thatcher hoisted the businessman as super hero while ennobling spivs and estate agents.
The country loved it so much that the Labour party had to enter into a Faustian pact to carry on her good work in order to get elected.
They fulfilled their part of the bargain with alacrity, such that anything that is good for big business interests is seen as synonymous with being good for the electorate.
A throng of unelected business interests have been ushered into ministries and quangos, where they promote their narrow interests as good government.
Regulators have been recast as business development agencies, a training ground for young ambitious people to cross over into boardrooms and big salaries.
What to do when it all goes horribly wrong? Labour has no soul left to search.
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Good article, Nick.
And for anyone searching for a good summary of the current crisis, I recommend Mr.Moore's words:
"But sadly, no-one wanted or felt able to speak up for fear of stepping out of line with the rest of the lemmings who were busy organising themselves to run over the edge of the cliff behind the pied piper CEOs and executive teams that were being paid so much to play that tune and take them in that direction."
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James Crosby has resigned...
Gordon Brown next..
Call an election
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MunichMadrid 7980 103
I have answered your question on why the regulator is to blame, quite conprehensively on bank regulation at 300 on 'Bash a Banker' niether you or Eatonrifle have answered. I wondered why not.
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So, the bankers said "sorry", but we're not sure what for? My view is that thye made a much better fist of their aplogies than any politician I've heard try. The good Lords who tried recently went for the old "I'm sorry for any disgrace if I have bought it on the House" type of wording - so we can infer that they were not really sorry, except in the sense that they were sorry they got caught. These bankers, to be fair, did get closer to the mark, vene if they still seem blind to the point that they have personally profited whilst overseeing the trashing of shareholder value and the need for a taxpayer-funded bail-out.
Questions from MPs to bankers about their banking qualifications are a good idea and good sport of course, but they are oddly weird coming from a group that appears itself to be stubbornly un-qualified (ie MPs). What professional qualifications does the delightful Mr McFall bring to this detailed financial forensic work for example? And what qualifications do Mr G Brown and Mr E Balls have to opine regularly on economic, regulatory, business and even Education matters?
PS Has Mrs Smith resigned yet?
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Sir James Crosby's been sacked from the FSA. Expect Gordon's placemen to start falling like ninepins.
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Crosby has just resigned from the FSA, I think that proves the point.
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114 David
Yes, finally, a decent analysis of banks' problems. I've worked closely with exactly those brainboxes in investment banking- clueless, in general.
None of the models ever work for long. Markets work on human emotions, and no-one has yet modelled crowd psychology effectively.
The point is that the faster the technology, the more globalised the world becomes. This is obvious, but so many people want to believe that a man in a suit in Downing or Threadneedle St. can control the actions of those who may be physically in Canary Wharf or the Bahamas, but can act in the name of any of their bank's global offices.
Many contributors here seem to accept that gloabalised instantaneous investment banking is here, and has led to the size of this particular crash being bigger than the many crashes which took place before [despite regulation]. Yet they still want the man in the suit to blame- to support their own prejudices, and politics no doubt. Human nature, but as irrational as believing that you can create the perfect model to turn junk into gold.
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Yes we are going in circles here as Sicilian says.
Yes there is a credit crunch, but this is nothing to do with our credit bubble in this country, they are two separate things.
We had a credit bubble of our own, which Brown allowed to happen. It is his mis-management of the economy and his lack of regulation of the banks which have left us the worst placed country to ride the storm. As I have said before the world has no faith in our country because of our Government debt, this is why sterling has fallen.
The world has a credit crunch, Britain and America have a credit bubble. Two quite separate things.
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Econoce #113 and #116
Spot on. I used to work at HBOS and the prevailing culture prevented whistleblowing or any other form of communication apart from slavishly following the company line. Officially whistleblowing was given the OK, but it was really just spin.
The business that I worked in sidelined the Actuarial risk function from the company board - actually he was sacked and he is a different person to Peter Moore. The sales culture was the number one priority, number two ... you get the drift.
In my IT role I uncovered one or two financial clangers of the eight figure variety. Again the attitude was, do not make waves. It is a shame that a once great company (B of S in particular) has been brought to its knees by corporate malfeasance. Oh and guys the bonuses issue is a red herring designed by Downing Street spin meisters to distract from the real debate. Of course no debate about bonuses for the FSA, B of E and the Treasury...
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Mr Robinson,
Mr Crosby has just resigned from the FSA. That still leaves you to ask the treasury select committee members the following questions:
1. Will you summon the former HBoS risk manager?
2. Will you summon Mr Crosby and ask him re the HBoS risk guy and whether he advised Brown to push for the Lloyds-HBoS merger?
3. Will you summon Mr Blank to ask whether Brown initiated the Lloyds-HBoS merger negotiations.
Awaiting some of your investigative reporting skills to come to fruition,
I shall remain,
Regards
PS Maybe you can now ask Mr McFall to ask Mr Daniels who initiated those Lloyds-HBoS talks!
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From PMQ text
1201 Was Sir James Crosby pushed or did he go of his own volition? Nobody knows, says Nick Robinson but it would have sapped confidence in the banking regulators if he had carried on
What confidence Nick
We havent had confidence in the FSA since it became apparent they were asleep on the job
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Mr Brown says the system of banking regulation will be reformed and says it's right for Sir James to step down from the FSA to clear his name
He supposedly has already cleared his name as the whitewash carried out by the FSA (he was deputy head when it was caried out) has already been completed
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Blears on the Daily Politics,yet again,in denial..quote "We are not in a Depression"
Brown at PMQ's..still in denial,and now quoting his new found friend President Obama.."doing nothing is not an option".
Worst of all,Brown smirking and laughing...does he not realise the Country is on it's knees and needs leadership..not arrogance.
Everybody around Brown is either falling on his sword,or showing dissent.The end is getting closer.
Time for you to do the honourable thing,GB
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Munich:
This wretched browser is still preventing me from delivering a reply; suffice it to say, I dont disagree with your broad thrust, but I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the importance of the regulatory framework and who is not only responsible but accountable for its operational efficiency.
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Sir James Crosby resigns as deputy chairman of City watchdog, the Financial Services Authority.
This is just latest piece of evidence of what is the main problem in this country.
Namely the disastrous judgement of Gordon Brown.
What level of incompetence will it take for Brown to do the honourable thing and resign?
This Brown depression will rob my grandchildren to pay for his incompetence
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Now Crosby Square's gone, who will replace him? Another Citibank exec, on past performance. Or perhaps one of yesterday's men.
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Nick..your piece opens with this...
"Perhaps the song now needs to be rewritten. Sorry does not, after all, seem to be the hardest word."
Can you tell Brown,when you next see him, that it is time he apologised to the Country
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#127 munichmadrid 7980
"....so many people want to believe that a man in a suit in Downing or Threadneedle St. can control the actions of those who may be physically in Canary Wharf or the Bahamas, but can act in the name of any of their bank's global offices."
Companies have vicarious liability for their employees. The company is responsible for their actions. The directors are responsible for the actions of the company.
They are responsible under UK law.
UK law is the responsibility of the UK government, the policy of which is dictated by the members of that government who have been duly elected to that position by the people of the UK.
Nobody expects a director of the company to know exactly what all his employees are doing at any one time. Instead, they expect him to implement structures and systems to ensure that they act in accordance with the instructions of the board of directors who have a legal obligation to act in the best interests of the company and shareholders.
They are not to blame for their employees actions, but they take responsibility as they have dictated the structures and systems.
The government is formed with a similar structure for similar reasons. The individuals who sit in government are not to blame for the actions of those that they govern through structures and systems, but they take responsibility.
"...they still want the man in the suit to blame..."
Not to blame. To accept the responsibility he has taken on.
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from 103:
"What we ought to be looking at is the decisions taken at strategic levels within banks which led to the collapse of some [not all, even some US banks who ought to have been heavily affected by what has happened over there, like JP Morgan, appear to have survived]."
Flamepatricia, what can you tell Madrid about the Morgan name and how that name fits in with the new world order? I can't be bothered!
I will say this though, Look to the parallels of 1929 and how the same Morgan family was instrumental in Jeckyll Island, the creation of the federal reserve, the following boom, the crash of 1929 and the purchase for cents on the dollar of hundreds of formerly independent banks... History repeats sometimes, by design.
People are obsessed with RBS and HBOS... Such names are tiny mice in global banking terms. Their losses of 20 Billion or so in a year is less than chicken feed to the 4+ quadrillion dollar annual turnover of the banking system. 4 quadrillion dollars in trade that flows through the worlds central banks regulated by the bank of international settlements in Basel Switzerland. The central banker's central bank. High street banks are pawns.
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We've all got to applaud Campbell if he manages to persuade both Peston and Robinson not to write anything on Crosby's resignation.
I'm now really guesstimating that Brown initiated the Lloyds-HBoS merger talks after getting some HBoS balance sheet chat from Crosby.
Lloyds would not have needed government support if it had remained independent. HBoS was pretty much a borrower of last resort.
PS I'm not short Lloyds shares
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Another difficult day for Gordon Brown at PMQs. The late announcement of James Crosby's resignation must have changed the exchange between Gordon Brown and David Cameron. Even then the Speaker stepped in to give the Prime Minister breathing space.
The Prime Minister however, continues to ask questions of David Cameron without restraint.
Additionally, enjoying what appears to be a rather different approach from Nick in recent days.
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Ok for those on here that think that bank regulation failure was not the main reason for the banks in this country failing and its all Global nonsense. I would like you answer this why did N. Rock fail then it was a British Bank, lending to British people, with no outside UK interests. If we did not have a credit bubble of our own why did it fail.
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Now McNulty says the depression is not as bad as it is painted?
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So, all the bankers have said sorry or resigned, the regulator has resigned, but the man who was there all along, Mr G Brown, thinks it's OK to hang on by his finger nails. He is clearly well past his sell-by date, and the faces of his colleagues around him at PMQ's today told the same story. A few cheers from Whips (the pay-roll vote) couldn't disguise the fact that he has lost his party.
Incidentally, at PMQ's Mr Brown noted that the Regulatory system needed further work - but seems to have forgotten who created the system in the first place.
Finally Nick - You need to keep on working on Mrs Smith's expenses. Even if she's right, keeping within the rules whilst intentionally sliding along the edges of them is not consistent with the Moral Compass, nor is it compliant with codes of practice on avoiding the appearance of dodgy practice. Have another look and ask Mrs Smith to explain why she thinks that her sister's spare room can ever be called her "Main Home". Maybe she could at least save us some money by living in her grace and favour apartement , so a) no second home to pay for separately, and b) saving the security costs and travel costs to Peckham?
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Yet again Brown was rubbish on PMQ's.
His game plan seems to be hold your breath close your eyes answer nothing for 30 minutes and everything will be OK for another week.
Surely (even if he doesn't realise it) his advisors must have thier ear to the ground on how the public feel about this unsatisfactory stance, every Wednesday lunchtime.
He repeatedly looks impotant with every evasion. In addition this new Fred Elliott/Foghorn Leghorn "Mr Mr Mr mr speaker!" Stutter, to try and sound informed, is increasingly starting to grate.
This pathtic weekly performance, is there for public scrutiny, and he along with his front bench look more and more uncomfortable,
Face it Gordon, the ride is over. Time to get off and go home.
We deserve better.
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87 107 Flame Pat's new world order
Really Pat, Bistrodrinker might be taken in by this tripe but surely you're not peddling this stuff as truth?
So 9/11 was all a hoax perpetrated by a cabal of bankers and right wing politicians? And the proof is that nothing like it has happened since so it must have been a hoax - are you by any chance a holocaust denier too?
And the New World Order will: "lock down" the Internet to prevent free speech. I think they might find that a bit tricky.
"Act now" you say. I think we should act by having you carted off to the funny farm.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
James Crosby's resignation statement (in full in The Times) says that Paul Moore made his allegations, not only to the Treasury Select Committee yesterday, but also on a BBC program last autumn.
James Crosby says that he was given a substantial payout in exchange for signing a confidentiality clause when he left HBOS.
If what James Crosby and Paul Moore say is true, why was Paul Moore not sued for breaking the gagging clause?
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#108
And a decent number of those unelected were appointed by Lord Stephenson in his other hat as Chair of the House of Lords Appointments Commission.
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Nick was factually incorrect in describing these four as 'bankers' because as a number of people have pointed out, they were not professionally qualified bankers.
Which must be a factor in the demise of their respective institutions.
Looking forward, it must become mandatory for these financial institutions to be headed up by appropriately qualified people.
I think that the role of 'risk management' is extremely important and that actuaries should be encouraged to move into this area.
Such a pity that both sides, government and governed, seem to treat each other with apparent contempt.
It is surely not the way a democracy is intended to operate?
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So James Crosby has looked within and found a shred of decency...
But what about the government? Get their snouts out of the trough.
For god's sake, do any of these vile poilitcal troughers have any shame?
Labour are annihilating this country, scorched earth doesn't even cover the damage they are doing, and still our useless opposition cant dislodge them.
No confidence, how hard is it?!!!
As for the Home Secretary, why is there not uproar? I am livid that this pathetic excuse for a money-grubbing minister with her positvive discrimination agenda is still in office.
LABOUR - GIVE US OUR ELECTION YOU INCOMPETENT SHOWER, OR GET LOST BEFORE YOU DO ANY MORE DAMAGE
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Sorry is not the hardest word here.
The fact is that BOS failed owing to it having a too heavy reliance on the wholesale money markets - therefore a failure of regulation - therefore FSA - therefore Gordon is at fault.
RBS failed because it had bought ABN Amro - passed as a transaction by the FSA no doubt.
Anyone see a pattern here?
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# 144 pilotspeaking
Mr. G. Brown is hanging on by his the skin of his teeth. We all know the state of his finger nails!
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To be honest, I've got to congratulate you, Nick, and your puppet masters, Mr Campbell and friends.
Whoever, comes up with the line to take on these ever mounting scandals really does deserve a medal for their services to public relations and spin. In fact there should be a Nobel prize.
However, Nick, do you realise that more and more people are seeing through it? And the levels of anger rising day by day?
Our day will come, trust me.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Brilliant analogy Mr Robinson very well put.
And as we know the Captain of the said ship went down with it, but the Chairman of the White Star Line did not, he survived in one of the lifeboats............but was shunned by society from thence forth.
So to, one may say, will be the publics judgment on bankers.....the public are angry and probably that anger will increase, not dissipate, as this crisis deepens and deepens.
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I agree with pilot @144 over this.
Please, Nick, can you find out how claiming that a spare bedroom in someone else's house is actually her main home when her family live in another house with all her personal possessions in order to claim expenses of 24,000 pounds per year of tax-payers money is in any way morally different to telling the benefit office that one lives alone to claim housing benefit when in reality one may have a wealthy lover over 4 nights a week who keeps his/her personal effects at ones home?
How is what our Home Secretary does in any way different in moral terms from large scale benefit fraud?
Please ask her this Nick. Please?
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Labour are really making themselves look even more foolish by planting so many questions at PMQs.
Today was a prime example. All the labour questions were definitely planted to lessen the embarassment of the PM - bit like someone writing the questions for their own exam.
Gordon Brown looked like a dead man walking. He was round shouldered, stuttered a lot and fidgited by constantly banging the Despatch Box with his hand. Certainly not a man in control. Cameron on the other hand was alert, bright and looked like someone who had not been up all night. Brown was a shambles.
Little wonder really when you see his houses of cards falling down round his ears. There is little doubt he got his flunkees to get Crosby out of the way before QPMs - if he had not have gone in this timely fashion there really would have been blood spilt on the floor of the House of Commons.
I think tihs whole bank debacle will be Brown`s undoing. He has either got to throw his hands up and make a big gesture that, "yes, I had a hand in all of this", or alternatively keep quiet. Thereby allowing his enemies free reign to peck away until his postion becomes totally untenable and he has to go.
This afternoons session with the bankers will be entertaining to say the least.
I think Cameron`s jibe at Brown about his poor decision making is starting to hit home, particularly when you look at the likes of Crosby with whom Brown so closely aligned himself to.
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@ At 1:33pm on 11 Feb 2009, I_Despise_Labour wrote:
"No confidence, how hard is it?!!!"
-------------------------------------------------
Well if you refer to a no confidence vote in Parliament, then it would be utterly futile. With a 50+ seat majority, there is no way on earth that the labour party would voluntarily vote itself out of office. A no-confidence vote would NOT work.
Even if Gordon Brown was eating live babies on live national prime time TV, Labour would possibly then only change their leader, and not vote for a no confidence measure.
There is not a chance of there being a no-confidence vote in the commons, because labour would easily survive it. They would vote to stay in power.
You don't really think that they would willingly give up their place in the trough do you?
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#146 Laughatthetories:
"And the New World Order will: "lock down" the Internet to prevent free speech. I think they might find that a bit tricky.
"Act now" you say. I think we should act by having you carted off to the funny farm."
===
If you did a bit of research instead of insulting other bloggers, you would find that control of the internet is already happening. As you can't be bothered, I have helped you a little:
"The Communications Data Bill is UK law, but much of the substance comes from the EU Directive 2006/24/EC, the sub-title of which is "on the retention of data generated or processed in connection with the provision of publiclyavailable electronic communications services or of public communications networks and amending".
The issue is of grave concern if you want to keep you privacy on Internet usage here in the UK, but, as an EU directive we wont be the only country affected.
So what does it mean?
Well, in a fundamental sense, every email within, or coming into or out of the UK will be recorded (sender/recipient and date/time only, at this stage), and websites tracked so that the government, police, and anybody else in the UK that the government deems may be interested will have access to this information."
===
The Internet Watch Foundation (IWF) is a self-regulatory (and self-appointed) non-governmental charitable body, the only recognised such organisation in the United Kingdom operating an Internet 'hotline' for the public and IT professionals to report their exposure to potentially illegal content on the Internet. It operates in informal (the relationships are not legally regulated) partnerships with the police, government, public, Internet service providers (ISPs), and the wider online industry. Originally formed to police child pornography online, the IWF's remit was later expanded to cover racist and criminally obscene material.
The IWF is an incorporated charity, limited by guarantee, and largely funded by voluntary contributions from UK communications service providers, including ISPs, mobile phone operators, Internet trade associations, search engines, hardware manufacturers, and software providers. It also receives funding from the Association for Payment Clearing Services and the European Union.[2]
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#56puzzling
A bit late I know but I have only just go here
They are afraid, as you say.
I think it's because the 'chasm of debt' which is what they are hiding, as are all other Banks here and around the world, is too big to imagine. Even they can't begin to take on board the extent of what they have done.
If this does come to light and the public see what the consequences are, they will show real shame. I am not sure they will be able to handle it.
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#152 Yes - the FSA was undoubtedly at fault.
But your logic would be that we always prosecute the policeman and never the criminal?
Of course, in the case of HBOS, Crosby was already a non-exec on the FSA, whilst he was sowing the seeds of destruction for his own bank. Hmm.
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Flamepatricia 104
I understand what you are trying to say here, but my feeling is that G. Brown is using the word Global to distract the public away from domestic issues. To a certain extent it is working you see. Its like he has blurred the line about banks, making it Global when in fact, we had our own credit bubble here.
I know at the time of Bush, Blair and he discussed a new world order, in which they could as it were deal with the axis of evil. This does seem to have gone off the agenda somewhat.
The thing you must understand about Brown is he suffers from exteme flaws in his character and that he genuinely believes he is the savour of the world. If you read some of his early stuff in Scotland, you will realise that he always believed a great destiny awaited him.
Now he thinks his time has come, and that only he can solve the world problems with him at the head of it all. He just does not seem to see that he is a poor leader and that he cannot run Britain let alone anything else. This is why everyting is Global to him, but other countries to be honest just see him as a failed leader of a declining country.
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gthebouncerandavincimaster 152
Yes that is exactly it ABN Amro was passed as a good deal by the FSA before the shareholders had even had sight of it.
The FSA had failed the British banking system by allowing them to overstretch their balance sheets and not retain enough capital to lending. This is the regulators job.
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I'll bet James Crosby didn't fall on his sword for nothing.
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After reading these threads for a few weeks I am surprised at the level of conspiracy theory from all sides.
Banking as used here and in Nick’s posts is a reasonably complex thing, a bit like saying Rolls Royce is a car manufacturer, it is but there is also the Rolls Royce that makes aircraft engines and the Roll Royce that is a MoD contractor, they are all Rolls Royce, and they all do similar but different things. To assume that heads of banking corporations are going to be bankers is like suggesting that the head of Rolls Royce is an engineer, which he may well be, but like most CEOs of big business the thing he is trained to do is run a big business. An engineer may well have a good understanding of what the product is, but he will probably lack the training to deal with the politics of business and how to make deals with other business leaders and civil servants.
I think most people would accept that the Sir/Lord whoever is not a trained engineer, let a lone a trained engineer in every aspect of what RR does, so why would these same people expect the CEOs of large banks (magnitudes larger than RR) to be different?
There seems to be an idea that the banks were complicit, even worked towards, bringing the financial industry that they acted in a criminal way. Even thinking for a nanosecond, this makes little sense. Yes there are criminally inclined bankers, just as there are criminally inclined individuals in every industry. But to think that the banks deliberately went out their way to bring themselves down, to destroy their shareholding and become dependant on the various governments? Sorry it makes no sense. These are the organisations that resent regulatory restrictions the most, for the very reason that the regulations are needed, inherent greed, so they are not going to anything to increase those regulations let alone hand themselves over to nationalisation.
Banking like every other aspect of modern life has become more and more dependant on technology and computers. Most bankers, again like most people in any industry, do not understand the technology that they are now dependant on. The people who do understand the systems and technology in the main do not understand banking. To make money banks used more and more complex systems and theories, which the bankers did not fully understand, they acted on trust that the people designing these things knew what they were doing.
It is a sad fact that hardly anybody seriously thinks about the bad times when things are going well. You might put a little aside for a rainy day, but that does not stop you from taking that nice holiday or buying that nice new gadget you don’t really need.
As for the regulators and government, yes in hindsight they could have done more, should have listened to the nay sayers, but if I listened to every doom sayer then I would have prepared for the end of the world almost daily. People only remember the events that support their beliefs, yes there were people saying that credit boom was out of hand, but some of them had been saying it for a long time.
The government is as likely to have deliberately brought the destruction of the economy as the banks are. It is not in their best interest to make life difficult for the general populace, after all they want to get re-elected. It appears that they had the same lack of understanding of the situation as everyone else did.
It appears that we have been hit by the negative side of an economic cycle, a decline that was inevitable, though not its size and extent. Basic laws of physics were ignore, that entropy is inherent in any closed system not matter how large or complex that system is.
Claiming that one party or the other is solely to blame for this is to wilfully ignore how complex the situation and how long it has been developing. Really there is no man sitting in a leather chair, stroking a fluffy white cat, cackling over destroying the world, either in Whitehall or a plush office.
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Dogzz is right, unfortunately, mass political hara-kiri by the PLP is not going to happen.
If Gordon gets toppled by a rival from within, his successor may - or may not - look to call a G. E. to establish his/her own mandate and clear the NL decks; given that Brown and Blair changed the PLP's rules to protect their own interests when it comes to electing a leader, I dont think we can see that as an alternative either.
That doesnt appear to leave many options (certainly no legal ones anyway) short of having to wait until 2010...
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Following his dismissal, Paul Moore took HBOS to an Industrial Tribunal at which point HBOS settled and paid "substantial damages" to Mr Moore.
If HBOS were in the right why would they settle and indeed subject him to a gagging order ?
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"#146 Laughatthetories:
"And the New World Order will: "lock down" the Internet to prevent free speech. I think they might find that a bit tricky. "
Laugh, do some research...
China already controls their internet access and Australia are looking to implement an even more draconian system.
Free speech is to be encouraged, until, that is, the masses start to freely speak of things that the powers that be would rather we did NOT speak about.
The powers that be do not need to police us when there are well meaning idiots in society that willingly do that job for them, through the use of ridicule.
FlamePatricia may well have some radical ideas and opinions, but you do society no favours by trying to repress them. In fact her opinions on the new world order are gaining many many more people every day as these people start by trying to ridicule and then look to disprove these ideas, then get into some research and discover that what she and, and now millions of other people like her, are discovering that the kinds of things she is say is indeed correct.
What will it take for you to wake up to that reality Laugh? When you no-longer have any folding money to spend, because it has all gone electronic, meaning that you can no longer trade independently with another human being in good faith without the say-so of the banks and you have to rely on the honesty and good nature of bankers to be able to access YOUR money? Or will it take them turning up to implant an RFID chip in your arm to permit you to buy or sell anything at all? Because by then, it will be too late to stop the tyranny! They will then be able to switch off your entitlement to any money, government or private service at all.
OH what was the ID originally to be called? OH yeah, an entitlement card! The clue is in the name...
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If required, politicians will drop their 'friends' quicker than a hot potato.
So readers may recall a magnificent English blue-chip (nobody uses that word anymore) company named GEC, which was successful for decades under Lord Weinstock.
Weinstock retired and a friend of Tony Blairs, namely George Simpson became chairman of the renamed GEC (Marconi) and within a few short years had run the company into the ground.
And no longer Tonys friend, at least in public.
Likewise, one suspects with Brown and Crosby.
Politics is probably the most brutal mind 'game' of all and when you're persona non grata then you're gone - possibly forever.
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Paul Moore's statement of how he was prevented from doing his risk management job and then sacked by James Crosby from HBOS in 2005 is a terrible indictment of the whole financial regulation system all the way to the top.
Risk managers inside banks are the key link between the FSA and the banks that the FSA exists to supervise. Without risk managers doing their job (and properly supported by top management) them the FSA can't do its job and the whole house of cards falls down.
James Crosby appears to have prevented HBOS being properly regulated by the FSA by the simple expedient of sacking his main risk manager!
Where were the government in all this? Didn't they have a duty to make sure the system of risk managers and the FSA was working in the public interest?
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The Jacqui Smith (has there ever been a more vacuous Home Secretary?) affair does have a place in all this. The bonus payments to bankers would've been proposed by a remuneration committee and approved by shareholders. But do the shareholders of "United Kingdom plc" get to vote on the remuneration packages awarded to our servants? No they get to vote on that all by themselves.
Many years ago the CEO of Coca Cola earned circa $86 million in pay and bonuses. When shareholders (Goizueta preferred the term shareowners) questioned his "compensation package" at the AGM Goizueta reminded him they'd approved the programme by 93% to 5%. And he was interrupted by applause on at least four occasions as he spoke.
Goizueta had made many of the shareowners millionaires, all Gordon the Golem and Jacqui Smith are doing for their shareholders is leading them to penury.
It's taken the Golem twelve years to wreck the "golden legacy" that Kenneth Clarke worked so hard (ignoring political expediency in the knowledge that the Tory cause was lost) left him in 1997. But as sure as eggs are eggs, a Labour government has wrecked the economy. And as Jim Rogers so rightly points out, we don't have much of the "black gold" left in the North Sea to save us this time.
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#161
here is some information for you with respect to the chasm of debt to which you refer:
Citigroup balance sheet is 2trn$ or roughly 15% of US GDP.
Barclays balance sheet is £2.1tn representing 170% of UK GDP and RBS is even bigger...
The government is walking a tightrope of their own making; thye did nothing to discourage the enormous leverage within the financial system. On the contrary it they turned a blind eye to it as it helped to fuel the illusion of growth during the boom.
No-one can seriously pretend an economy is growing because house prices have tripled; but Gordon Brown did and lived off the profits for ten years. He ate the house, with a million extra public sector jobs that we simply cannot afford.
Anyone can remortgage (or you could once upon a time) but the more it goes on the less equity left in the house; there is no equity left in Gordon Brown's UK and he knows it.
This is why we are bust.
This is the legacy of this disasterous newlabour government; they spent money we never had over and over again.
This is why Jim Rogers is telling you to sell everything to do with this country.
There is no easy way out, savings need to rise, the public sector will have to take deep cuts, taxation will probably have to rise under whichever party is unlucky enough to win the next election.
Gordon Brown has ruined us, he has ruined our pensions and he has ruined the national accounts, he has trashed the currency and he has given us the most bloated public sector pensions system in history supported by a smaller private sector than ever before.
It is no laughing matter and the government has simply got to go.
The endless enquiries into wrong doing headed by stool pidgeons is only adding to the sense of fury within the country.
The wilful abuse of parliamentary priviledges and expenses by a sitting home secretary is just another example of the callous contempt in which they now hold us the British people. She has spent more than five times the minimum wage on a mythical second home and can't even see why people who have lost their jobs and their savings are annoyed.
The country is exhausted with their selfish and dishonest behaviour.
Call an election.
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Susan Croft, the drive to a new-world-order is not a recent Bush/Blair/Brown invention. It is a continuous effort that has been developing for over 100 years. The drive to put more and more power into fewer and fewer hands is on-going and the EU and the NAU and AU and AU are all part of this.
Most world leaders are puppets to this agenda and follow the policies dictated to them by unelected unaccountable think-tanks and elite secret societies. This stuff is well known and admitted by insiders who have become sickened by what happens inside some of these organisations and have spoken publicly and openly about these goals. they have written books and essays detailing how these plans are to be implemented and why.
When one has read these books, the unfolding news on the TV makes a lot more sense. the Hegelian dialectic is all over the place. And every change in policy, every new outrage in the media and every little step further towards totalitarianism becomes amazingly apparent and obvious.
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#167
Fubar old chap, what's wrong with the illegal options?
The coup d'etat is a long noble tradition in the Digby household. You know, I didn't make colonel by sitting around waiting to be promoted.
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What saddens me is the baying crowd demanding the blood of the bankers are the same mob who were singing their praises a year ago when we were in a boom-time!!
Oh for an honest man (that rules out most MPs and peers) to speak up!!
Instead of wittering on about Global forces and new Global Orders, Brown should be stating that honesty shoudl be the new by-word - and set an example by owning up to his own mistakes in his handling of the economy over the last 11 years and taking his (large) share of the blame. At least then when he and his discredited gang are thrown out he can go with some dignity - rather than desperately clinging to power, braying stupid sound bites and blaming everybody else.
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#109. braveSouter
I was careful to say "British Economy" not world economy.
Whilst I accept that Banks and others are responsible for the world wide downturn, we were in no state to weather a recession _when_ it did happen, thanks to Gordon Brown's incomptetent handling of the British economy. Therefore he owes us an appology don't you think?
I'm no economist but even I saw it coming, why didn't Gordon Brown?
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No65 dlilley
David, You appear to suggest that banks principally exist to borrow and lend money.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Businesses exist to maximize earnings for the owners of the business. Employing irresponsible, reckless spivs, at the highest level (with many honourable exceptions), to achieve their goal is all part of the game. The list of corporate gangsters that have operated in the world of big business in the UK and other free-market economies during the last 30years is endless. Hayek and Friedman, along with their political puppets have a lot to answer for.
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Everyone agrees that the banks behaviour has been terrible over the last few years, but there's been little written about how the government fanned the flames and stood by while people borrowed insane amounts of cash to fund their consumer lifestyles (plasma tellies, new cars, foreign hols etc). Without this, there would have been absolutely no boom before the bust, so it was in the government's interest that the country borrowed more than it could afford.
So by my reconning the government and the electorate are equally to blame for the mess we're now in. No one was forced to borrow money!
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The attemopts by the newlabour spin machine to regain some kind of narrative would be funny if they weren't so flailingly desperate.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/4571944/Ed-Balls-minister-fears-rise-of-fascism-amid-economic-gloom.html
We've gone form recovery in the second half of 2009, to the green shoots of recovery to now fifteen years of downtunr according to the children's minister..
And now they resort to shock tactics; vote newlabour or the fascists will get in. This is a party desperately clinging to power having ruined the economy.
none of us should fall for this guff.
Call an election.
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160 169 purple and yellow
Chaps - I don't need to do any research as my work involves working with and developing internet applications, so you do some research instead of accepting this nonsense. I can categorically assure you that if I want to avoid 'the government' locking down my internet capabilities I can do so, and so can others like me.
So do you accept that 9/11 was a hoax too? Do you believe paper money will disappear? Do you believe it is all a carefully orchestrated conspiracy? Do you think the government is that competent?
Or is it a few bloggers with nothing better to do?
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£ pound
$ dollar
Just an experiment, to see which one is acceptable on the BBC website.....
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DavidRMurrell @ 166
That is a decent argument but I personally never subscribed to the notion that these CEO's were interchangeable between different industries.
By co-incidence, or maybe not, the chap I mentioned earlier in this blog thread, one 'Lord' George Simpson, was also an accountant like 'Fred the Shred' parachuted in to run (ruin) an engineering company (GEC/Marconi).
Still, nice try, but not convinced on the available evidence.
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167 Fubar.
I expect better from you. Individuals do not change rules in democratic organizations. I rather suspect that you know your suggestion is absurd.
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173 RobinJD
Is it reasonable to assume that you will be delighted to see the new American President warmly embracing and adopting the British PMs approach to solving the global crises?
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So thay have said sorry.
However I have just been informed by Lloyds, who have taken over HBOS, that I can expect no dividends until the government is paid off. This smacks of stealth taxes again as it is my money that is being given to Gordon Brown to fill his empty coffers. Coffers that are now empty because, as with all Labour governments, they have over spent, lost revenue by imposing HIPS and stalling the housing market, and putting millions out of work.
Seems to me that the people who should say sorry, Brown and Darling, have yet do so.
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166 david
The crank conspiracy theories here only come from one side:
They believe the BBC is part of it.
They believe that Bush, Blair, Brown, and all the main world political leaders of the last 30 years (but not Mrs T) are part of it, albeit as puppets of a hidden Controller- not one of them will say who this is though.
They believe that today's Britain as a broken scoiety, too much immigration, the English trampled on by Scots, Irish, Welsh, the EU etc.
They believe someone is 'out there' with a malevolent totalitarian agenda, most of which is aimed at them personally and as symbols of free-born Englishness.
They believe that 9-11, the credit crunch etc were deliberately caused by the Controller's minions, in order to keep the free-born down.
They belong in Macarthy's America- but they're here, and any unsuspecting overseas blogger stumbling across this forum must find all their prejudices against the British well and truly confrimed.
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So the 4 labour lords won't be investigated - whereas 1 tory mp who was getting information from the Home office was jumped on by browns bovver boys and kept for how many hours?
Watched V for Vendetta again the other night. Might as well have been a documentary.
But the question is Nick, are you going to blog this double standard, or is it difficult to spin it in a labour approved way?
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#98 flamepatricia
It may (or may not, but it's Scot on Scot) interest you to know that I totally agree with you flamepatricia and have long thought the same about Brown i.e. he believes his own 'amazing charmed destiny' as something special, here to do 'special' thinks ...that was meant to be "things" but I'll leave it.
We KNOW Mr Brown............!!!
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No charges to answer either for the four Labour Lords or Jacqui Smith. WHITEWASH!
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# 86 ... I dont think the warning was lost. I think most people decided to simply ignore it ..
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Nick.
What a wonderful "Titanic quote". How eloquently it sums up the view of the present captain, and of course former chief navigating officer, of the ship of state.
Perhaps some leadership on accepting responsibility for wrecking the economy from "our glorious leader" would encourage others to accept theirs.
Then perhaps like Nelson at the Battle of Copenhagen "our glorious leader" might claim that he was unable to see the signals!
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As we sit here on a municipal autobus travelling down Ave John F Kennedy in the Grand Duchy looking into empty office blocks formally occupied by Fortis, Citybank ect.and contemplating a return to the UK. What hope have we English , Scots, and Irish Euro citizens have of obtaining gainful employment in an economy according to blogs previously posted would appear to be even worse than in European community
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PurpleDogzzz 174
I read an article a while ago and I cannot remember the name of the organisation, but it was claiming that world leaders and people of influence joined it. Its aim was to remain secret until such time as a new world order was achieved. Now it claimed Bush and Blair were members and there were a good deal of important people listed.
Do you think this is true or is it just media stuff. I did not know what to think at the time of reading it.
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#185:
Obama is using his own approach to fiscal stimulus. It was not borrowed from Gordon Brown although it suits you to say so and The US is better placed to make these measures work anyway.
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With reference to suggestions that the internet will soon be blocked by a New World Order...
...apparently some 'one' has been fiddling with internet content, this must surely be a precursor to the True Blue World Order, coming in 2010, apparently.
I bet that poor Tarquin(ia) in Central Office has been removed from the tuck rota!
Public School wheezery at its finest, what?
[class envy, sad]
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Susan Croft and Comment 194.
The 'secret society' you are recalling is probably the BILDERBERG GROUP/FORUM.
It is an extremely secretive organisation whose Membership, Meetings and Aims are always kept hidden from the Public gaze.
However, its cover has been broken several times and you are correct to suppose important 'western' leaders such as Tony Blair, George Bush, NATO Commanders, Global Power-brokers have been involved with its 'in-camera' meetings. Often these meetings invite despotic/corrupt Heads of State, International Industrialists, Military Officers from foreign powers that might not at first sight seem 'friendly' to the Democratic-Capitalist 'western ideals'.
The most sinister aspect is that the Democratically elected Politicians meet up with the likes of senior Military leaders, International Bankers, Lawyers, Businessmen and even Media Moguls and agree to keep silent on what is discussed!
Bilderberg by its very nature is anti-democratic although its few defenders who have gone public have always said its aim is the promotion of the 'free world': Nothing could be further from the truth as Bilderberg submits to no public scrutiny/accountability.
Worryingly, you will have noted 'Media moguls' are amongst its 'satellite' membership, as well as, Oil-wealth laden Executives, Copper/Gold Mine-owners etc.
Regrettably many leaders prior to Bush and Blair and the rest of Capitalism's finest have their egos preened and flattered by rubbing shoulders with such high-profile company. It is understandable, afterall if you are the No.10 encumbent would you rather eat off the gold plate or visit the rundown council housing estate!?
You can get a more detailed view by going to:
http://www.bilderberg.org/2007.htm
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181. At 4:03pm on 11 Feb 2009, Laughatthetories
"160 169 purple and yellow
Chaps - I don't need to do any research as my work involves working with and developing internet applications, so you do some research instead of accepting this nonsense."
===
Read my post. I never made any mention of a New World Order or a conspiracy.
If you really do work in the IT field, you will have heard of The Communications Data Bill, which is UK law, but much of the substance comes from the EU Directive 2006/24/
You may also have heard of an organisation called Wikipedia.
The Internet Watch Foundation (IWF) which is a self-regulatory (and self-appointed) non-governmental charitable body tried to have a Wikipedia entry relating to a Scorpions album cover censored.
Those are facts that you should be aware of, being such an expert.
3 Jan 2009 ... AUSTRALIA will join China in implementing mandatory censoring of the internet
German Government Wants to Start ISP-Based Censoring
Dutch government wants to censor the Internet
Websites might one day be regulated by government and given movie-style ratings, if an interview given by the Culture Secretary is anything to go by.
Among other issues, Andy Burnham told the Daily Telegraph that he would like to see some restrictions on online freedom of expression, including blocks on certain websites.
===
I found all these articles using something called Google, you may have heard of it, it is an easy way of finding out information on the internet.
I recommend it to you!
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Susan @ 194, There are many different organisations that match your description. Most are pretty harmless really. There are different kinds of organisations, some open, some semi-secret, some completely secret that have influence on policies of national and international organisations and governments.
Open organisations would include Davos. Semi-secret would be the likes of the Trilateral Commission, Chatham house, and other groups like Common Purpose. These allow you to know who is a member, but the meetings do not have fully detailed minutes. Secret organisations are like the Bildeberg group, which is a secret version of Davos, Top people from politics, industry, military and the media meeting to discuss the future plans, but in complete isolation and secrecy. Beyond this there is the many secret societies that people in high levels of power belong to, for example, skull and bones that has had many presidents of the USA as members.
Some say that skull and bones is merely a college frat-house, but the bonds established there and the connections made DO last a lifetime.
Whilst the existence of secret societies and semi secret groups and think-tanks funded by shady billionaires is not in itself proof of any kind of global conspiracy, the information leaked by members historically have made those claims in a blatant manner. Additionally, is it right for the leaders of a democracy to have secret meetings with financiers and senior military personnel and media moguls to discuss future policy directions without oversight in a democracy? What deals are being done in secret? We are then left to simply TRUST the politicians and bankers are acting in OUR interests, and after the last few months one thing is clear, they only ever act in THEIR own interests.
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Laugh, I could write a book about 9/11 and NO Bush is NOT to blame.
I won't write a book as there are good one's and some very very poor ones available already. I have read every one I can get my hands on and spoken personally to many people involved, many of those investigating it and spent more hours than I care to estimate investigating it myself. I have heard probaly every version of the various conspiracies available from the plausible to the compelling to the obvious to the odd to the downright preposterous and crazy.
Suffice to say Bush is NOT to blame for 9/11 in any way shape or form.
However, The official 9/11 commission report IS one of the worst conspiracy theories I have ever read.
--------------------------------
As for the cashless society, how many reports on it do you need to see before you get it?
Are we as a society heading in a direction that uses MORE folding cash or LESS?
How many establishments are going cash only? compared to how many are going cashless? Why cannot benefits be paid in cash anymore? Pensioners were being forced (through being on the receiving end of harassment and threatening behaviour) into opening bank accounts against their will just to receive their pension...
The problem with a cashless society is that we will NEVER be in possession of our own money. That means that other people will ALWAYS be in a position to dictate and control how we use our own money IF they wish.
I miss being able to go to work for a private employer, get paid in cash (legally after tax) and then use that cash as I see fit, in privacy without having to rely on a third party to look after my money for me.
What damn business is it of the Government or of the banks what I do with MY own money? So long as what I do is lawful, then it is NONE OF THEIR DAMN BUSINESS!
Can we look forward to a future where we control our own cash? where less and less of us will have a bank account? Why should we have to give the banks all our money to look after? I do not trust banks or bankers and this past few months have clearly shown why.
In a free society we should all have the freedom to transact in private in cash and be able to exist without a bank account if that is what we wish. That's freedom init?
We are heading fast in the opposite direction. Why do you think that is?
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Oh and Laugh, I am a systems engineer, a software developer/coder and have developed web applications also, so your claims do not impress me. Of course people with specialised knowlege will always be able to access proxies and other back-doors to gain access to the net even if it is blocked.
Even in China people can access sites that are blocked. The point is, when they are discovered, they go to jail!
The Chinese model is being examined and other nations are expressing increasing levels of interest at the notion of blocking "offensive content" Now they get no argument from me to blocking kiddie-porn, but when they decide that legitimate political blogs become "offensive content" as they may tell the truth in a way that the mainstream media content (that will be allowed) would never do.
I use by way of example the lies reported as fact by the mainstream media in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq. I have nothing against the media reporting this way in a free society, so long as the alternative, true version of events is available and we can access all this information and decide for ourselves as free adults. the blogosphere was the only place to access the truth about the lack of WMD in Iraq.
Another example: I only had access to the mainstream media in November 1990 when the story of brutal Iraqi soldiers stealing incubators from a Kuwait Hospital and tipping premature babies onto the hospital floor to die was promoted internationally by the mainstream media. This was a deliberate lie too. It was invented by a PR company by the name of Hill & Knowlton to swing public opinion in favour of war. I believed it was real, because I only had access to mainstream media at the time. Now I can access the internet, discover interesting leads, follow them up, cross reference the information and verify or debunk the information for myself, I am not so easily fooled by the mainstream media anymore.
Can you see why the global elite who want their wars would not want people to be able to access accurate information?
BTW There isn't any plan for the NWO to switch the internet off, just to restrict it with legally enforced penalties for any breaches.
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McNulty wriggling like a lizard in a tin on Newsnight. Utterly Squirmworthy.
Typical Paxo though.. lunge in, then retreat and give the politician under the grill a chance to lick their wounds and come back rather than administering the coup de grace..
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Question to all, what is the difference between a deep recession and a depression?
Answer, in PC terms it is the same but has to be spun as just a recession.
Why? old pension thief Brown does not want to be seen as the one responsible for the worst financial disaster since the 1930's.
Will it work? No chance, Jeremy Clarkson is most certainly right about him.
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Anybody think Brown has the courage to go down with the titanic, or will he show his bottler character by being at the front of the queue for the Brussels 'commissioner' lifeboat, of course making the excuse that he's saving his family. After all there is a precedent for this by a certain former Labour leader called Kinnock whose family has long occupied the Brussels lifeboat.
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184#
I think I'm flattered - "you expected better" :-)
The rules have definately been changed during the days of NL, for what it takes to trigger any kind of leadership contest. I'm sure I'll be corrected by one of the card carrying nomenklatura, but I am certain the number 70 is in there somewhere - ie it takes the signatures/backing of 70MP's within the PLP or 70% of the PLP...
Some of you will probably say I should check my facts out before blogging them. Yes, I dare say I should. However, I've just driven 200 miles and at the moment, I regret I cant be @rsed at this precise moment..
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182 Coloneldigby
"£ pound
$ dollar
Just an experiment, to see which one is acceptable on the BBC website....."
Its the euro(¤) thats unacceptable.
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160 161 181 purple yellow and laugh..
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/9_11_conspiracy_theories
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
207. At 02:07am on 12 Feb 2009, dhwilkinson
Get your facts right. This slurring of people is pathetic.
Read my post, I never made any mention of 9/11 or conspiracy theories.
Governments wanting to control the internet is irrefutable.
I expect an apology after you have reflected and reread what I wrote.
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ikamaskeip 197
PurpleDogzzz 199
Good morning
Thanks for that it was indeed the Bilderberg Group, I recalled it as soon as I your read you comments. Obviously I have a lot to learn in this area, because I did not know whether to believe it or not. I mean some of their aims were good, like trying to eliminate war, but some were a bit more sinister like new world order ambitions. Anything to me which is secret like the Masons, I tend to worry about because if you really believe in something why would you not share it with others. It must mean you have something to hide. Like both of you anything which happens in secret by its nature is anti-democratic.
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Yellowbelly 1959 160
Good post this is indeed correct, I read about it the other day.
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"Some of you will probably say I should check my facts out before blogging them. Yes, I dare say I should. However, I've just driven 200 miles and at the moment, I regret I cant be @rsed at this precise moment.."
--------------------------
Nice one... Honest at least ;)
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Right folks - the 64 billion pound/euro/dollar question this week - -
Are you Sure that it was an Iceburg that caused the damage?
If so - and it is an IF - it melted years ago in a warmer climate.
Arn't there any other boats to talk about like the global one we are all sitting in, revolving in an ocean of space?
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198 yellow
Your condescension knows no bounds. I am well aware of the examples you give but to say Australia is going down the same road as China is nonsense. Their policy is focused on porn, primarily. Your comments are all ifs and maybes which simply won't happen.
200, 201 Purple
Thankyou for your much more considered and informative comments. Whilst I agree that there are some invasions of civil liberties going on - which we may or may not like - I still think that the NWO hysterics are way over the top. Anyone can run around saying what if this happens, or that might happen but the evidence offered by pat and yellow is pretty facile stuff, to be honest.
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# 206
Its the € that's unacceptable.
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Susan on NWO:
"Good post this is indeed correct, I read about it the other day."
Ah, proof positive at last
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#206
How come it worked in yours but not mine?
I rather forgot about coming back to check which one worked.
£ pound
€ euro
$ dollar
¥ yen
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Why dont the banks support us customers who bailed them out?
I saw the lame apology on TV and it made my stomach turn to see them on their fat cat salaries. They should try living like I do in 10K a year.
The fact that one of them said SORRY for losing 10bn on a Bad Decision...huh?
I've nade some bad decisions, I followed the banks advice and now I'm over 13K in debt. The Banks response when I asked for help was to pass it to a Debt Collection agency and wipe their hands of it.
Why don't they use these bonuses to pay off some of the peoples debt and bail us out instead of lining their own pockets with our money.
Nobody comes to us with a handout like the banks have had.
Keep the bonus money in the bank, wipe out customers debts with it and then we will all have more money to spend on the economy..and restore a little faith back into the banks...
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209 yellowbelly1959
Ok so I've looked at the example you gave. No wonder they tried(and should have succeeded) to remove it. Have you seen it? the title is 'Virgin killer' and its a picture of what looks a naked pre pubescent child. Its nauseating.
If you looked at the cover, you would also want it removed. Nobody is trying to censor political comment in this country on the internet*, Its a conspiracy theory. So I will not beg for your forgiveness, No matter how many times you demand me to.
*Except Conservative supporters and Daily Mail readers.
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146. LAUGH on the other side of your face ....
They all laughed at Christopher Columbus when he said the world was round.....
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200 dogzz
I agree completely with you about cash, and banks.
It obviously suits them for us not to have or use cash very much. Just like it suited them until recently to have instantaneous electronic dealing in financial markets, accessible via a laptop anywhere on the planet.
What gives the large organisation more freedom will probably take away some of the ordinary person's.
Tricky one to tackle, as uninventing computers etc. is impossible, and no jurisdiction wants to be 'left behind'- capital will gravitate towards the easiest way to profit.
What do you suggest?
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#214 laughwiththetories
"198 yellow
Your condescension knows no bounds."
I learnt it all from you!
"I still think that the NWO hysterics are way over the top. Anyone can run around saying what if this happens, or that might happen but the evidence offered by pat and yellow is pretty facile stuff, to be honest."
If you bothered to read my post you would see that at no point did I mention a New World Order or global conspiracies, for the simple fact I do not believe in them.
Still, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant.
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217 digby 206 hodgee
See my comments on the end of the blog linked below.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2008/04/new_ways_into_blogs.html
I encoded the pound symbol by putting a capital A circumflex accent character before the pound using charmap.
See my comments at the end of the above blog link Browndov uses. The Euro is the currency symbol(¤) if you set the character/text encoding encoding to Western ISO 8859-15 it will show as the Euro and show how I printed the pound sign. The comments page format and the output of this comment box don't match. that's why we get errors when entering pounds and using accents.
£=£
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#214 laughwiththetories
Twist, turn, fudge, obfuscate, smear, lie. Typical NuLabour tactics that you seem to have adopted as well.
The examples below show that control and censorship of the internet is taking place, and is growing, which is what I stated in my original post. That is a fact.
At no point have I mentioned conspiracy theories, or a New world Order, because I don't believe in them.
On 15 March 2006 the European Union formally adopted Directive 2006/24/EC, on "the retention of data generated or processed in connection with the provision of publicly available electronic communications services or of public communications networks and amending Directive 2002/58/EC"
"The Internet Watch Foundation, which blocked a Scorpions album cover, controls a powerful censorship mechanism"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/09/scorpions-virgin-killer-censorship
"AUSTRALIA will join China in implementing mandatory censoring of the internet under plans put forward by the Federal Government.
The revelations emerge as US tech giants Google, Microsoft and Yahoo, and a coalition of human rights and other groups unveiled a code of conduct aimed at safeguarding online freedom of speech and privacy.
The government has declared it will not let internet users opt out of the proposed national internet filter.
The plan was first created as a way to combat child pornography and adult content, but could be extended to include controversial websites on euthanasia or anorexia."
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24568137-2862,00.html
"PARIS: With the aid of sophisticated software, government censorship of the Internet is spreading into a global phenomenon, with tech-savvy governments filtering forbidden themes from politics and human rights to sexuality and religion, according to a new academic survey of 40 countries.
In the past five years, the practice has grown beyond a handful of countries, including Iran, China and Saudi Arabia, to 26 nations that block a wide range of topics as they adopt filtering techniques, according to an OpenNet Initiative report to be issued Friday in Oxford, England."
"Countries like China, Iran, Syria, Tunisia, Vietnam, Uzbekistan, Oman and Pakistan followed a broad approach, accord to the report. Tunisia, which was host to a United Nations summit on the information society in 2005, focused on four themes: human rights, political opposition to the government, pornography and "anonymizer" sites that offer tools to circumvent controls online."
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/17/business/censor.php
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Pat:
"They all laughed at Christopher Columbus when he said the world was round....."
Yes, but he was right, whereas you, I suggest, occupy a different position, and, I further suggest, are not likely to be remembered by history to quite the same extent
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#223
Thanks for that.
Here goes.
€
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Flamepatricia
Laughatthetories is obviously a graduate of the Tony McNulty/ Hazel Blears School of Charm.
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Labour ministers are furious at a decision to release official statistics that highlight the increase in foreign workers in Britain.
Yesterday the ONS revealed that the number of non-UK nationals in work rose by 214,000 to 3.8million and a record 151,000 work permits were handed out to foreigners.
The figures came as official statistics showed that the number of people out of work had risen to a 12-year high.
But this is the first time that the ONS has highlighted the employment of foreigners in a separate press release.
It comes just days after illegal wildcat strikes spread across Britain in protest at the use of cheap foreign labour and the failure of Prime Minister Gordon Brown to keep his pledge of 'British jobs for British workers'.
Home Office sources said the 'bar could be raised' on the new points based migration system to make it harder for foreign workers to enter the country.
It would reduce the all-time record 151,000 work permits handed out last year as the country slid into recession.
===
So much for "British Jobs for British Workers"!
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Trying again. ?
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I understand that the bak chiefs blamed the rating agency for grading toxic assets as triple-A. Who is this rating agency? If it is part of the FSA setup then it needs investigating because toxic assets were those loans/mortgages recklesly taken up with people with low financial status etc and therefore no way could they be graded triple-A.Just remind me is not the FSA supposed to be monitoring and regulating all financial institutions? They seem quick to slap penalties on Insurance Companies but very lax in their dealings with banks/building societies,why is that?
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I understand that the bank chiefs blamed the rating agency for grading toxic assets as triple-A. Who is this rating agency? If it is part of the FSA setup then it needs investigating because toxic assets were those loans/mortgages recklesly taken up with people with low financial status etc and therefore no way could they be graded triple-A.Just remind me is not the FSA supposed to be monitoring and regulating all financial institutions? They seem quick to slap penalties on Insurance Companies but very lax in their dealings with banks/building societies,why is that?
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OK As if more proof were needed watch Brown on his New World Order mission speech:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8l6Af74rCY
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231 john wise owl
The ratings agencies are Moody's and S&P's, both of which operate out of New York- though I'm sure Brown must have been responsible for them, as someone will no doubt tell us all on here.
Yes, they were very badly wrong.
BUT, when an asset is paying you 6-7% and
base rates are 1-2%, would you not wonder how it could POSSIBLY be risk-free???
This is the difference between the competent and incompetent bank director.
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#219 wrote:
Nobody is trying to censor political comment in this country on the internet*, Its a conspiracy theory. So I will not beg for your forgiveness, No matter how many times you demand me to.
*Except Conservative supporters and Daily Mail readers.
A pretty daft generalisation which doesn't do anything for your credibility.
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229 hodgeey and anyone with ?this problem?
Charmap should be on Western European DOS or similar it may be on Unicode which uses 2 characters to produce a larger character set. Are you copying from Word or similar word processor? these question marks appear instead of ?quotes? in some posts. It'll be smartquotes or something similar. You need to switch them off. If you are cutting and pasting for spellchecking, why not download the free Mozilla Firefox 3 Web browser. It has spellcheck built in that works in the comments box.
234 sicillian29
"A pretty daft generalisation which doesn't do anything for your credibility."
It was Meant to be daft generalisation. This site is full of daft generalisations anyway. Who cares?
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#235:
Fair enough. Just as long as I know.
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One more try! ?
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No luck yet with the Euro sign. Firefox set at Western (ISO-8859-1) and using charmap on unicode (only one with euro sign).
Here's the euro sign from Vista character map. ?
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And Brown's defence for the total collapse of the systems that he was in charge of regulating was "I threw the radar in the bin so that nobody could spot the icebergs. Blame the captains of the ships for hitting them, not me."
I say blame both; the directors of the bank for acting with unknown/over-high risks, but also make sure you blame Brown for destroying a regulatory system which worked perfectly well before he got his hands on it.
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This govt is in a mess - some of their own making, some out of their control - people should always remeber that hindsight is a wonderful thing - easy to be wise after the event - harder to make the decisions now.
The real scandal, and what will hit labour very hard, is the growing perception by so many "everday folk" that after everything else, they are now bailing out the financiers - a very "tory" trait, in many eyes.
I was made redundant in Jan07. The company I worked for lost its next 1/4 funding, and went into administration. It had a £400k credit line, £12m turnover and 115 staff. When it all shook down, the NIF(ie the taxpayer) paid the redundancy, at legal minimums. All suppliers were paid. The "suits" charged £650K in fees - to close and assett strip a business owing 250K !
I set up my own company in Feb 07 - we employ 7 people, and its hard work. Wages are about UK national average.
Why on earth should employees of these bankrupt, cashless, insolvent companies get bonuses funded by the rest of us ???? They are all lucky to be getting a monthly salary, never mind a bonus - look back decades, then tell the workers and families of UK miners, car makers, mill workers, steel workers, retail staff, farm workers etc etc etc why their firms were allowed to wither and die when the cash ran out, yet the bankers are bailed out time and again.
I really do think I will be withholding my taxes next year if HBOS/Loyds/RBS/NAT WEST etc get paid bonuses......why should I fund them - they didn't fund my old company ?....I am doing 6 or more days, often for 12 or more hours to build a business for my family and staff....not to fund the gravy train for others.
Its a scandal - we are all being mugged to bail out an industry that grew fat for decades through nothing more than greed.
ALL staff ( and sorry for the "foot soldiers" ) should be on council pay scales - from the counter staff, to branch and area managers. When you have NO money , that’s what the reality is. In 2007 my redundancy "package" was a joke - because no one bailed out my employer, so I got the legal minimum, paid for by the government. Far less than I was "contractually due" - but there was no cash......why are bankers bonuses any different.
The fact a bank caused my previous employers woes - and their suited colleagues in the insolvency firm feasted on the scraps, just makes it all the worse.
Mr Brown and his colleagues run the risk on losing bitg time, on two fronts - they will confirm the doubts of their natural enemies, and yet they will also alienate their core supporters.
They are between a (northen) rock, and a hrad place.
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