Confusion on the wildcat strikes (2)
"It's very hard to know what's going on here. The Unions say that Total's subcontractors are discriminating against British workers. Total says they aren't. Whom to believe?"
That's the question posed by DisgustedOfMitcham2 in this morning's post.
The government's reply to this is that ACAS will find out the facts, although it's striking that Peter Mandelson appears to have already decided that the company is telling the truth when it says there's no discrimination against British workers.
What's also becoming clear is that there's no agreement on what "discrimination" really means.
The unions believe that EU law should not simply guarantee that foreign workers get the same legal minimum terms and conditions as British workers. They argue that it should prevent "undercutting" of British workers by giving foreign workers the terms and conditions produced by collective agreements negotiated between unions and employers.
The unions claim that the EU's "posted workers directive" would mean this, if it was implemented properly by the British government. They also argue that recent judgements of the European Court of Justice have limited their right to fight for the directive to be implemented.
The Business Secretary Lord Mandelson begs to differ. In the Lords just now, he argued that "I don't think it's reasonable to seek to change the law in a way, in respect of this European directive which would extend collectively bargained entitlements to all companies and employees in adjacent employment, because that's not in UK law, let alone EU law."
It's not just his cabinet colleague Alan Johnson who appears to take the unions' side. The comments in the Commons of the former cabinet minister Peter Hain and of Labour's former chair Ian McCartney suggest that they do too.
Peter Mandelson is trying to make this dispute purely about the behaviour of Total and his message is, essentially: the company isn't breaking the law, so get back to work. The strikers and many others insist that this dispute is about protecting workers up and down the country.
PS: Brownloather (a name which may tell you something) draws my attention to Peter Oborne's criticism of me in today's Daily Mail for being "gullible" in my coverage of Gordon Brown's promise to deliver "British jobs for British workers". I simply ask you to re-read what I said at the time the phrase was first used, in September 2007:
"Ponder for a second how exactly the same policies or phrases would have been written up had David Cameron delivered them. A 'lurch to the right' anyone? Or, even, 'language normally associated with the far right BNP'?"
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The government can't come clean on this subject.......... because they have sold the UK down the river and are hamstrung by EU legislation on this issue.
Expect....... nothing to happen......... .......because our government signed any power they may have had to act away to Brussels.
Brown will, however, continue to bluster that he is doing everything possible for British workers - although insist that when he said "British jobs for British workers" that he actually meant something different - just like the "No return to boom and bust" promise.
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Nick, you prove your critics point. Browns statement was one of the worse examples of dog whistle politics yet you both failed to criticise him and managed to associate bigotry with another party. What you present as a subtle critical aside of Brown clashes with your often strident sleight at his opponents.
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I wouldn't believe a word Mandy says. For him to be in a labour government is an oxymoron in itself. This is not an issue that only involves Total. The whole thing is a total farce, a sell-out on British worker's rights. This should cause the downfall of a government, and in times past would, but I fear Brown will call a state of emergency and stop elections taking place. British jobs for British workers. A Total lie!
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The confusion for me is not about Tenders, or where the British tenders are failing - it's about what the strikers say is unfair or even discriminatory.
They are not making their case clearly enough, because those being interviewed by the media are the strikers themselves who - on live radio or tv - have the passion of their convictions but perhaps not the clarity. Is it that overseas companies are gaining contracts but deliberately not using local resources (ie workers) or are they unable to use them?
Can someone clarify for me?
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It must be right if Mandy says so. Nick, why don't you get yourself down to one of these plants and have a chat with some of the workers. Come on get out of that Westminster bubble. I'm sure you'll pick-up a better idea about what's going on from some of those on the ground, so to speak. Go on, do it for the ordinary punter out there.
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Nick,
now we are beginning to learn of the millions spent on buying a Titian for the country, for the sum of GBP50 million from the Duke of Sterling, or somewhere in Scotland.
I mean those now allegedly in control of this country do really not so see it. This is disgraceful and the world must think, no know, that we have gone collectively mad. It is not only Brown who is bonkers, it is all of us for letting this shambles go on.
Give us a general election, please, this is disgraceful!
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Nick
Reading between the lines I would suggest that Gordon Brown was opportunistic.
He also runs true to form in now saying that he didn't mean that, the same as he cannot say that we are going through a "Bust" even though he had previously given a definition of what that was; i.e -1.5 GDP.
Clearly the guy has a problem. Don't believe a word he says.
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This is the second piece within a week where you have felt the need to clarify your initial point.
Nick, whatever you may think to many of the bloggers here you face very serious questions over the impartiality of your posts.
You seem to ascribe comments made by ministers as fact and anyone who may hold a different view as highly suspect.
You must accept that the unelected Minister you quote above has had some past difficulties where comments he has made have been found to be wanting in accuracy.
An increasing number of the UK population find it very difficult to believe anything that members of the cabinet say.
The credibility of not just you but the BBC is at stake here.
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The tender was put out by Total,a French Company operating in the UK to supply engineering services for an engineering contract at their refinery.
The rules of the European legislators say that procurement rules are that Total send out tender to any company in Europe who wishes to bid on the work.
The Italian company looks how they can be cheapest and bid accordingly by:
- renting a floating hotel for the itinerant workers.
-paying the Italian and Portugese workers enough to entice them to work in the UK.
And all within the rules that NuLab signed up to.
So the Government and Uniions can come up with as many weazle words as they like but they agreed with it the day they signed with all these european agreements.
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Having lived and worked in the Netherlands for a considerable period I can vouch personally for the benefits of the free movement of labour within the EU.
The Government can call as many meetings on this as it wants but what Total did was perfectly legal and correct so we already know the answer to their deliberations.
What is amazing is that Brown made the ridiculous "British jobs.." statement in the first place - what does that say about his judgement in these difficult times?
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I feel that both your blog and the comments have missed the fundamental anger underlying the plight the refinery construction workers. They see their livelihood, homes and families put at risk by complex and frequently incomprehensible european legislation which legitimises the right of large multinational corporations to maximise profits regardless of the social consquences and is, frankly, not fit for purpose. Even without the present economic meltdown this situation would be an appalling travesty of natural justice. But I do not see press reports of the Serious Fraud Office trawling through the e-mails of senior banking executives or of hedge fund managers having their computers seized in search of the undoubted malfeasance which has largely created the problems facing refinery workers and many other sectors. Yet this does not happen: we have suffered from utterly spastic regulation at the hands of the FSA with the connivance of the very same government ministers who are now telling the refinery workers that their natural and reasonable actions are 'indefensible'.
There is clearly more than one rule which governs in this democracy. It is a sad reflection on ten years of New Labour that things can only get worse.
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Sorry, but am I the only one who sees the idiotic irony in all this? British protests over hiring foreign workers at a TOTAL-owned plant? TOTAL? As in the FRENCH energy concern? If it weren't for cross-border movement, these protesters would be standing in an empty field. You can't have your cake and eat it too: bringing foreign employers is good, but bringing foreign employees is not. I can't sympathise with such hypocrisy.
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indirect discrimination can occur where it appears that all workers are treated the same, regardless of race but where it becomes apparent that workers of a particular racial group suffer or are likely more likely to suffer a disadvantage.
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This issue is not about Total and the striking British workers.
It is about Gordon Brown's use of the phrase 'British jobs for British workers'. The whole issue has become a problem because of Brown and his dog whistle statements.
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Nick,
Thanks for engaging with us commentators ('Commontators'? ;-) ).
Some of us give you a hard time not because, I believe, we think you are in thrall to Nu Labour (only an idiot would be - and you are not an idiot), but because you are so embedded in the Westminster Village culture (or bubble).
Outside that bubble the nation is seething with anger. Anger that is mostly directed against this government and its abysmal record.
Every time Brown, Mandelson [interesting how he is now 2nd in command] or some other lesser minister lies to us the anger grows.
With their lies and self-delusion Labour has sown the seeds of a cold wind. The whirlwind they will reap come the General Election may blow them away for all time.
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I do like this accountability however you are a little soft on the government for some reason. The danger we face here is a face off between workers and the government. As we are in recession, if not depression, it is right that we aim to keep British jobs and I am proud of these guys for standing up to big business. It is pretty much what the Chinese Premier said today as well if the translation was correct in that he wanted to safeguard chinese jobs!
(I also saw on the news that Gordon took him the wrong way before a quick U turn!! Had me in stitches that did! Comedy gold from our U turn PM!)
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Nick,
The real problem is that we are in a recession and there are not enough jobs to go around - even those paying the minimum wage.
NuLabour has encouraged people to come to this country when times were good to fill skilled jobs instead of training our own up. The govt was more concerned to have kids with a wad of A levels and universities stuffed to the rafters with students on useless degree courses rather than concentrating on training up a home produced skilled work force.
Foreign workers were also encouraged to fill jobs at the lower end of the scale which british workers would not touch with a barge pole because the pay was so poor and they could "earn" just as much staying at home on benefits.
The latter being the downside of the minimum wage which has had the unfortunate consequence of keeping the going rate for the job artifically low as it is, "made up," by the tax payer in the form of tax credits. A plus for employers as they are getting cheap labour. Also Ok if you have children - but not so good if you don`t.
As the recession bites deeper we will see more of this unrest. The ratio of foreigners to the indigenouus population in the Uk is way out of kilter.
(Even the govt has recognised this and is putting a cap on the number of foreigners allowed in our regiments)
This, "local problem," is just the tip of the ice berg. As more and more british people
continue to lose their jobs, they are going to be very unhappy to see foreigners remaining at work, whilst they are forced to sit at home existing on very little.
If the various forecasts of 3+million unemployed at the end of the year come true, then this country is in big trouble. Gordon Brown`s slogan, "British Jobs for British People", will come home to haunt him big time. The BNP will certainly a very good chance of getting a foothold in parliment. The only people to blame for that will be NuLabour who have been sleep walking for the past decade and judging by Peter Mandleson conduct so far in this dispute has not woken up to the reality of the situation.
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Nick, thanks for your reply.
Total are in the right, the unions cant have it both ways, however much they would like to, and the Labour Government say they can.
This is a European Law I fully support and think is right.
If they were turfing out british workers to replace them with swarthy foriegn looking types, then well they might have a case. But as it is, nah tough chicken. But well done on making a numebr of companies want to hire EU workers instead of you bolshie lot. Idiots.
Anyway back to Mandleson and his little boat ride over the summer with the tarrifs.
Toodles
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Nick,
Regarding your comment about what you said at the time of the soundbite - you don't actually say anything about it, only what might have been said if the David Cameron had said it.
An interesting angle to take but David Cameron didn't say it - Gordon Brown did - and you don't seem to have made any comment about that.
Why don't you comment critically on what is actually happening with the government and not on some imaginary situation involving the opposition ?
I suspect this is what your critic was refering to and you actually reinforce his view with your response!
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It is irrelevant whether the foreign workers are being paid the same as British workers would be paid. ACAS investigating this is a waste of time and money, and the Unions paying lip service to Brown are betraying their members by going along with it. The simple fact of the matter is that foreign workers are keeping unemployed British workers out of a job. Whether it's legal under EU rules does not have any bearing on it, it is contrary to the interests and prosperity of the British people and must be stopped. The obvious anger on the picket lines bodes ill for any foreign worker that finds himself out in the street while this mood prevails.
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Well, this is what you get by not poking the politicians in the chest and demanding action from them.
All this was brought up apparently prior to the signing of the Lisbon agreement by GB... and all protests were waved away. What you are seeing now is the endgame, the logical conclusion of it.
What Total are doing is not illegal. The unions may huff and puff, but there is naff all they can do about it.
So, why now are the unions, who you would think would have the political savvy to have known something like this would happen, why leave it til now? Why not bang the drum prior to Lisbon? Why not use their influence, being a major funder of Labour, to raise the matter on behalf of their members?
Because like the politicians, they have their own political agenda. They have their snouts in their own particular troughs. They're not interested in their members, only in their own political futures. Correct me if I am wrong, but arent at least 2 of these 4 troughing Labour lords former Union leaders?
This is the end product of globalisation. This is what happens. The Union leaders are mugs for not seeing it coming; the politicians have hardly covered themselves in glory for hiding it under the carpet and then trying to fudge it; and the public are mugs for being politically disengaged from their MP's and not getting in the faces of their local members in their surgeries and telling them its not on.
And, as other contributors have mentioned, the boot has been on the other foot for years. What do you think we were doing in Saudi on Al Yamamah? Employing Saudis? In the UAE 80% of the population are ex-pats. Its been going on for years. We cannot have it both ways.
Get used to it guys, this is the way it is.
And as for the BNP... I've been banging on about this for months. If they are making political capital out of these disputes, it does not surprise me in the slightest. I dare say that this will be the thin end of the wedge. They will see it as their chance to make hay whilst the sun shines. Watch them carefully, it'll only get worse, unless the main players step up to the plate and do something.
Starting with someone, anyone, calling for a vote of no confidence in Gordon. Before it gets any worse.
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Dear Nick,
Few things better illustrate the strategic confidence of Gordon Brown. He spots the territory - immmigration, Britishness... etc - which the Tories are nervous of occupying and plants his flag there.
Remember the other part to your speech?
I believe the Tories were nervous because everyone would have called them 'racist' if they did!
Xxxx
ps
Any chance you could answer some other blog questions raised? Mandyson and big house, a yatch, Russian hospitality etc etc..?
GB unable to do anything about EU laws?
Corruption in the House of Lords?
pps
How is your (HP)source?
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Nick, glad to see you read the comments here.
The issue is not what Mr Mandelson would have you believe. Mandelson says the company is not breaking the law. This does not square with the Unions' version of events.
Construction workers have been staging a similar protest at Staythorpe power station in Nottinghamshire for weeks now, about exactly the same problem.
"Alstom has been contracted by RWE to build a gas fired power station near Newark. Two companies, Montpressa and FMM, have been subcontracted to carry out construction work on the site. These two non-UK contracting companies say they have no intention of employing any local labour to undertake the work. Unite has branded the decision a national scandal.
Unite estimates that 600 jobs will be needed to build the power station's turbine and boiler (Montpressa will fit the turbine and FMM will fit the boiler) and another 250 to build the pipe connecting the two. None of these jobs will go to UK workers.
FMM told union officials that because they had no direct employees themselves, they would supply their workers directly from abroad and would not be giving any consideration to local construction workers with years of experience of building power stations throughout the Trent Valley.
Unite joint general secretary, Derek Simpson, said: "Our message to Alstom is that we will keep on knocking until you let us in! Staythorpe is a national scandal. We are seeing thousands of jobs being lost daily but at Staythorpe there is skilled, well-paid work available. It's a disgrace that local workers with years of experience are being locked out of the job.
Staythorpe, although the most prominent, is not the only site where employers are refusing to employ local workers.
Alstom has been contracted by Eon to build a gas-fired power station near Grain in Kent. Unite sought assurances that Alstom would provide a level playing field for UK workers during the process for sub-contracting. The union pressed Alstom to include a clause in the tendering process - that any sub contractor would endeavour to use UK or local labour. Alstom refused and then appointed a non-UK construction company, Remak, to build the boiler. The union has been informed that Remak will not use any UK labour."
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It is reported that both Irem at Lindsey and Remak at Grain have refused to even consider employing British labour as part of the contract.
That is what the workers are complaining about, set against Brown's fatuous and vote-grabbing slogan of "British jobs for British workers".
When yo next see him, tell Mr Mandelson to get on his bike and actually travel up to Killingholme and talk to the workers there, he is Business Secretary after all, isn't he?
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This may seem hard to believe but these wildcat strikers represent a white dominated cliché that very successfully mange to deny opportunity to UK ethnic workers outside of the present difficulties.
The strikers work in remote locations away from cities where equal opportunity is well established. They are often right wing conservative in attitude and are over paid and out of touch for what they do.
What are they going to do when the French arrive to build our next generation Nuclear Power stations?
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Nick,
you asked us to e-read what you wrote in September 2007, so I did.
"Few things better illustrate the strategic confidence of Gordon Brown. He spots the territory - immmigration, Britishness... etc - which the Tories are nervous of occupying and plants his flag there."
===
Strategic confidence, Gordon Brown? Are you sure?
Jumping on any bandwagon and running around like a headless chicken would be more appropriate!
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9 and 12
This is not a British vs. foreign issue.
The most worrying aspect is that it cannot possibly be true that it is cheaper to ship in, house, feed and employ construction workers from elsewhere in the EU, paid above the minimum wage in Euros, than it would be to employ local UK workers, paid in sterling.
Either the UK bidders for the contract were trying to make a colossal profit margin or, there is something dodgy about the contract between Total and the US company who won it then sub contracted to Irem.
It's impossible for us to know exactly how it was awarded, but something about this Lincs. contract stinks of fish.
It has been pointed out that this situation is far from unique, or confind to the UK.
In other words, it looks like it's not only bankers and politicians who are corrupt.
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So far as I can see, what you said in September 2007 is as good an example of you letting Brown off the hook as any. Brown makes a nonsensical, undeliverable promise, and even before he's actually said it, your conclusion is that this makes life difficult for the Tories. Eh?
Perhaps if you had drawn attention to the inconsistencies of such a statement, and pointed out that it was a purely political soundbite, rather than some dramatic change of policy, borne more out of a desperation to hide his Scottishness and steal Tory clothes, the difficulties arising out of EU employment legislation might have become a topic of debate before all this nonsense started.
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The problem at Total hasn't been caused by European law but by the government approved sale of British industry to foreign companies. Quite understandably these companies want to use contractors they have confidence in or who have particular expertise. The same thing will be repeated when EDF/Areva start to build nuclear power stations in the UK. Most of the design and manufacturing will be in France. Brown pushed through the sale of Westinghouse ( by BNFL) to Toshiba just as the the UK and many countries in the world need start to building nuclear power stations again. Non existent strategic planning.
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Your last comment actually mentions the BNP and David Cameron in the same short paragraph. I really don't need to ponder about what would have happened if David Cameron had said this. He didn't.
Please, Nick - try to stick to the facts. There is so much you and the other reporters on the BBC have let slip through your fingers, like what Mandleson was doing on Deripaska's yacht. I'm still waiting for an answer, as I am sure plenty of others are, too.
This government is guilty of so much. What exactly would it take for you to start asking the pertinent questions?
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The trades unions can no longer sit on the fence and trade pleasantries with their members.
We are back in a situation where they are paid by their members to look after their rights not a labour government who has literally sold us all down the river.
If they are to regain any respect as trade union officials then they should start doing their job.
They have had an easy time of it over the last few years but now we shall see what sort of mettle this new breed of trade union officials are made of.
No one believes Mandelson about anything.
This time he's completely out of his depth.
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Nick I am not sure of the point you are trying to make by providing your quote? You make it appear that you are attacking Brown for his words yet the rest of your post suggest quite the opposite:
"Few things better illustrate the strategic confidence of Gordon Brown. He spots the territory - immmigration, Britishness... etc - which the Tories are nervous of occupying and plants his flag there."
You are actually suggesting that Brown's move was tactical - trying to force the Tories down a path.
So far from deflecting the accusation it appears to support it!
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The EU argument is fundamentally irrelevant, gordon brown, peter mandelson and co, are wrong, WE the British Public have never given our consent to be part of the EU, we have been denied our say, we have been denied a referendum, so the argument for the EU and all its laws, regulations etc, means absolutely NOTHING to us, so do not talk to us like we in any way have accepted the evolved EU concept, we have not.
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This is typical of the stupid British worker. One minute we do not want to accept less working hours and better conditions like the rest of Europe, and now we are complaining about hard working foreigners. Wonder what those 2.2 million British working all over Europe are saying!
Instead of thanking their lucky stars that they still have a job, while all the world is in a downturn, they go out on strike. Marvellous!
KICK THEM OUT AND BRING IN THE FOREIGNERS. Maybe then, and only then, will we start to get the message.
Do not be amazed to hear Dave pretending to be on the side of these workers' (sic) side and play the protector while his party DESTROYED British Industry in the 80s and 90s and sold the lot to the foreigners. Ahh, investment coming UK they shouted. Trust in the UK economy they paraded.
Now, get back to work and thank God you still have a job!
Idiots!
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One of the facts that discredits Mr Mandelson and Lindsey Oil operators Totals views that the foreign labour are under the same pay and conditions as the highly skilled British tradesmen,
The foreign labour stay on an accommodation barge probably in 2-4 berth rooms, therefore each of the 250 workers will not be in receipt of the £217.35 per week lodge allowance stipulated by the NACEI agreement (Blue book) that the British skilled tradesmen are entitled to under the agreement.
This is only one instance of the terms and conditions being eroded by the foreign labour which in turn is detrimental to the British economy as the lodge allowance is not being put back into the local economy i.e. through guest houses and land lords thus putting them out of business as well!
This blatant lie from Total and Mr Mandelson also casts doubt on their statement that the foreign workers are on the same hourly rate as the skilled British tradesmen!
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Mandelson with his cupid bow mouth and stained teeth leaves me quite cold. Goodness only knows how the frustrated workers are reacting to him.
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Politicians particularly spinless Labour ones are running scared that this is the thin end of the wedge and the UK worker will finally focus on what has been happening for the last decade i.e. McStalin and his sycophants have at best turned a blind eye to overseas outsourcing but more accurately actively encouraged. As for the unions their breathtaking is beyond jaw-dropping having demanded we welcome such unwanted arrivals with open arms when they taking our jobs and fought tooth and nail for their rights whilst ignoring their longstanding UK membership. That so much of the work that was once done in the UK and has been encouraged to move overseas by a compliant government drunk on multiculturalism and globalisation is nothing short of a national scandal and thank God they've finally be rumbled.
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Onlywayup wrote:
This is typical of the stupid British worker. One minute we do not want to accept less working hours and better conditions like the rest of Europe, and now we are complaining about hard working foreigners.
Don't you see the irony of what you have written?
In one line you are talking about British workers refusing to accept shorter working hours and the next you are talking about "hard working" foreigners?
Wouldn't the British workers working the longer hours be the harder workers?
Or are the only British workers who work long hours public workers who are claiming thousands extra a month on over time?
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We all know GB doesn't do anything without very careful planning. When he promised "British jobs for British workers" he meant it in the sense that most ordinary people would understand it. It's hardly that complicated a concept after all. He will also have done it knowing exactly how little he could deliver against that meaning, but calculating that the soundbite would have greater political value.
Now the promise has backfired spectacularly, he and Mandelson are claiming that he didn't mean it in the sense that it seems most ordinary people (even Nick!) did in fact understand it.
So, first GB shows poor judgment, then when he's found out he treats us like idiots.
When are the BBC and other commentators going to start taking GB and other government spokesmen to task over this? I have yet to hear a single reporter challenge this behaviour directly.
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Just because the Total contract might be legal, does not make it morally acceptable. It is discriminatory.
The fact that it may legal shows how bloody awful the EU laws are.
We could have a much more constructive and balanced relationship with the EU if we were outside of it. Money talks as the saying goes, and if we pulled out of the EU and created a low-tax, dynamic economy the EU would trade with us, only it would be on mutually agreeable terms, instead of the master/slave terms we have now where we have to work within rules that NO UK citizen has ever even had the opportunity to vote upon.
The EU could have been a great thing. In theory it was a brilliant idea, but it is a flawed and failing, undemocratic dictatorship in the making.
We should not obey, nor pay taxes to provide, laws that we have absolutely no say in whatsoever.
No taxation without representation.
And don't even go near claiming that the EU Parliament has any power, it has NONE. It can only make suggestions about amendments to policy. It cannot enforce any amendment. Just because our unelected PM has a one in twenty seven say on suggesting ideas for laws to be put forward by the EU council, does NOT in any way shape or form, resemble democracy. The EU Commission, taking representations from over 3000 secret working groups, defines the laws. the EU council and council of minsters fine tune them, give them to parliament to rubber stamp to give a tiny facile fig-leaf of fake democracy.
I have never ever ever ever ever been given any say whatsoever, by way of vote or any other means, over any law or decision making process in the EU, EVER.
NOBODY HAS.
It is arrogant in the extreme to suggest that this contract making process is all OK merely because it does not break EU rules. We have never ever been given any say at all about the EU rules.
If companies can operate a policy of refusing to employ people on the grounds that they are from a specific EU member nation, AND THEY ARE, then that is discriminatory and should be outlawed.
This protest is about ending discrimination and about the British having some say about our own future, and about how the British government have treated British tax-paying, voting, working people with complete and total contempt.
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The root cause of the strike is actually the failure of democracy in the UK.
Today we had an unelected appointee of a Business Secretary defending labour laws made by unelected European Commissioners, under a constitution on which the British people were denied a referendum by an unelected prime minister in direct contravention of his predecessor’s general election manifesto commitment.
The strikers are doing the whole of the British people an enormous favour by standing up for our rights to determine our own destiny by democratic means against European autocrats.
Call an election.
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No 38 said:
We all know GB doesn't do anything without very careful planning. When he promised "British jobs for British workers" he meant it in the sense that most ordinary people would understand it.
----- ----- ----- -----
I've seen very little evidence of the Golem's "careful planning".
This "British jobs for British workers" was as ill-judged and ill-conceived as his "no return to boom and bust". A populist utterance to increase popularity. The first (boom and bust) was to reassure the middle classes, the latter (British jobs for British workers) was to pander to the proletariat.
His approach to the recession has been the "headless chicken" approach and, to be perfectly honest, a headless chicken would probably do less damage than the Golem.
He's running amok. Where's Rabbi Low when you need him?
And yes, I know, Rabbi Low is in the Old Jewish Cemetery in Prague.
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Just listening to Keith Vaz on Newsnight trying to dig Gollum out of his "British Jobs For British Workers" hole.
God, I've seen some two faced, squirming and political wriggling in my time, but that took the cake. I nearly fell off my chair laughing. Nigel Farage took him to bits and Vaz just kept interrupting and trying to talk over the top of him.
And, the union leader was all at sea... he didnt know whether he was coming or going. Paxo tied him up in knots, but as per usual, let both him and Vaz off the hook. Chances are if there had been a Conservative reprasentative there he would probably have got the usual "do nothing"/"what was Osborne doing on that yacht" guff instead of dealing with the issues....
I dont normally have any time for UKIP, but I'll give them credit for one thing. The only candidate of any political flavour that I have seen in my home town at all in the last 14 months, who has tried to engage the people is the UKIP candidate. Nobody else is in the slightest bit interested.
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About 2500 (based on BBC figures) people believe that discrimination is taking place, they believe this so strongly that they are willing to go on strike and lose pay to highlight the issue. Now they may well be wrong but they may just turn out to be right, the logical move is to investigate and find out the truth. Instead Gordon Brown & Lord Mandelson have chosen to take the word of Total and have labelled the the strikers as xenophobes. They well may find the low regard they have for the electorate is reciprocated at the next election.
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Hi Nick
If you would be kind enough to raise your head from the Westminster bubble you would see how the country regards Lord Mandelson.
In the "bubble" he is seen as a skilful operator whereas outside he is seen as duplicitous and someone who let's be polite is happy to misrepresent things. So in the outside world he is seen as one of the things wrong in our politics. If we wished to clean up the Lords it would have been better not to send him there.
As to Gordon Brown everyone heard the phrase about British Jobs and whilst I do not support wildcat strikes I find it very wrong that Lord Mandelson has found against them already.
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5. At 6:28pm on 02 Feb 2009, doctor-gloom wrote:
It must be right if Mandy says so. Nick, why don't you get yourself down to one of these plants and have a chat with some of the workers. Come on get out of that Westminster bubble. I'm sure you'll pick-up a better idea about what's going on from some of those on the ground, so to speak. Go on, do it for the ordinary punter out there.
=====
What!! A BBC journalist actually doing some journalism?
Mandelson wouldn't stand for that - they'd be gone by the end of the week.
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This has NOTHING to do with discrimination, race, politics. None
It has all to do with workers wanting to put food on the table by doing a fair days work for a fair days pay.
Is that too much to ask in Brown's Britain? I'm getting the impression from all the 'brains' on here that it is.
If the politicians don't listen soon, we are going to see a lot more trouble. And I mean a lot more.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1545141/A-million-foreign-workers-come-to-UK.html
It's not about race for god sake, dont be stupid, the trade union movement was created to fight against abuse in all it's forms, look many companies and especially multi-national companies have been guilty of employing foreign worker's for no other reason than,, giving foreign worker's less pay and condition's, Tesco's Asda, Primark
Ineos and many more have been abusing
foreign worker's for a long time.
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Ah it's starting to feel like we're back in the 70s isn't it?
But anyway, as far as I can see this issue highlights a (if not the) fundamental flaw with the EU - the free movement of labour means that no country is protected, in effect the EU behaves like a country, when it is not, and clearly isn't accepted as such by much of the population
for example there wouldn't be such a problem if these jobs went to a contractor in Wales or Kent, but because they're Italian - they're 'foreign'
But within the EU they aren't - everybody is the same
to me this just highlights that, culturally, nations (or Britain at least) are not ready for this step - they do not regard EU countries as part of the same state
I don't say this as a euroskeptic, I just see one massive, obvious problem that this feature of the EU brings up
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Nick, I followed the link to your earlier blog
Strategic Confidence
You quote your own earlier comments about Brown's promise of "British Jobs for British Workers", but taken as a whole you seem to be enthusiastic.
You said, "Few things better illustrate the strategic confidence of Gordon Brown. He spots the territory - immigration, Britishness... etc - which the Tories are nervous of occupying and plants his flag there"
So, you seem to imply that Brown is being 'confident' for making this promise, but the Tories are being timid for not making a similar pledge.
Unless you meant this ironically (as when Sir Humphrey tells Jim Hacker he is being 'courageous'), you seem to be praising Brown for his 'Strategic Confidence'.
Now the sky has grown dark with the wings of chickens coming home to roost, it seems in retrospect a very foolish and undeliverable promise to have made. Don't you think?
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I'm beginning to wonder if most of the commenters on BBC blogs aren't all fake accounts made by a couple of elderly UKIP fanatics, frantically trying to fill the comments section with badly-disguised adverts for the party.
I preferred it when you chaps stuck to painting "SAY NO TO EUROPE!!!" on old doors and leaving them in hedges, to be honest.
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Hi Nick,
Very robust.
To use a topical metaphor, Lord Mandy seems to be skating on thin us.
The legal and intellectual issue is, at what point does 'collective bargaining' cross over into discrimination?
If a group of women (of whatever nationality) were prepared to work for less wages than men competing for the same job, we would all scream sexual discrimination. So if Total, and others, are seeking to use foreigners to undercut indigenous workers, it seems to me that a Class Action would be successful.
As our friend Derek says in #47:
"many more [companies] have been abusing foreign worker's for a long time."
...which is a sad indictment after 12 years of socialist rule, don't you think?
See you in the pub (having some mulled wine at the moment).
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A bit left of field but if some of the cliaims are true then it's not just "British" workers that are being discriminated against but workers from 23 other EU countries who this contractor chooses not to select its employees from. Also "foreign" nationals resident in the UK are apparently not considered eligible for employment by this contractor.
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Oh dear! I did suggest that GB and friends should be very careful what they said in the next few says, lest a spark ignited the packed and angry tinderbox of civil unrest.
They didn't listen and it looks like we're now heading for social unrest of mega proportions.
A vote of no confidence would be a very good thing right now - at least the ensuing mess would be so diversionary as to diffuse the situation somewhat.
Incidentally, I'm of no particular political persuasion-I love my country, and can't bear the mess it's in.
The true face of the credit crunch is shown on every protester.
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One of the ironies of the situation is that effectively the Conservatives are gagged on this issue since their spokesman in opposition to the Lord of Darkness is Kenneth Clarke who probably feels that Mandy hasnt gone far enough in reconfirming the supremacy of the EU.
In other words the average voter has only the smaller parties e.g UKIP to put their point of view.
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Dear Nick
Politics and Unions are a feisty mix at the best of times
However, these men have a a point this time, it is a "politically deep rooted" sell out of Britain by a Labour party, to encourage Foreign workers into the country to reduce wages and salaries, AND even pensions.
Here lies the crux of the plot, economically we will suffer more than any other country in Europe, because Labours plot to diminish the indigenous People for the Vote, has left Briatain incapable of dealing with the credit crunch, due to too many Foreign Owners of British Companies, who have taken steps to take out of the Economy all money they make, to pro up their own countries.
On top of that we have a massive Immigration problem, accelerated by labour, to again diminish the Vote , of indigenous people, as British people are viewed as the most Cynical about the Lisbon Treaty, and the reason Gordon Brown will noot give us a Referendunm.
The Plot to bring in more Foreigners is part ot of the Labour Parties plans to reduce Britain to a multi cultural economy, where the world owns Britain, and The Vote is slanted towards Labour for letting them all in, as a majoity are socialists, and Catholic, orientated,
The reason for this is to get the mix of people within Britain the same as that of Europe, a true multi national nation, which leave the Political parties, themselfs disfunctionable, and out of step with the EU, which is basically Socialist in its approach.
Look closely ate all the service industries, the influx of foreign has a had a major impact on British Jobs, and that is absolutely visible, for all to see, now its industry that is being hijacked.workers,
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You wont print it,but it is still a fact that Nick Robinson is so pro Brown that his credibility is nil. His job should not be safe !
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Mandelson is bound to say it is alright (& get back to work) as he was formerly the EU trade commissioner and probably cobbled together the legislation that means he's right. I expect if asked about "British workers rights" off guard he would respond with a lethargic "who?"!
I expect he spends more time going through the loan documents for his Regents Park mansion than he does on the legal working rights of the people he is meant to represent!
Disgraceful man!
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Does anyone agree with me that Total gave the contract to an American company (non-EC) so that foreign labour could be used.
The contract obviously makes a profit for both the contractor and sub-contractor so there is obviously a lot of money to be made from this contract.
Smells rather!!!!
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Freecornwall 55
Its not a conspiracy the simple reason why Labour allowed immigration to get out of hand was first they were totally inept. Secondly they did not want to reform the welfare state. Instead of forcing our people to work they allowed foreign workers in to do the jobs ours would not. The reason is simple, people on benefits are their core voters. Indeed who has not been effected at all by the recession?, the people on benefits. These were the first people the Government helped.
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Nick
Regarding your PS.
It is not what Cameron would say, it is what Brown actually said to hold himself a hostage to fortune that matters.
Being only an ordinry voter and not a super intelligent PPE graduate can I suggest that what we the general public actually want is
1 Politicians who are honest and transparent in all their dealings
2 Politicians who tell the truth (some hope) "as it is" at all times. We can take it!!!
3 A government that takes into account ALL of the population and governs for all of the population equally and fairly.
I know that this goes against the grain for politicians and Brown's government fails spectacularly on all points.
The result would be spin doctors out of work (cost savings), commentators who didn't need to read between the lines or be biased in their reporting, and a government we could trust.
Since there is no hope of any of the above, lets hope for new government that has some semblance of honesty.
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Peter Mandelson's "International rates" for the job was dismissed on the Today programme as nothing more than the minimum wage, I warned you about sophistry yesterday. Go back to Downing Street and ask them what the Italians are actually being paid. Peter Mandelson should be required to provide more information to back up his statement on the Today programme, after all he is being paid £185,000 a year plus a EU pension of £30,000.
I wonder whether this dispute actually lies with the fact that the vast majority of workers in the UK construction industry are self employed and recruited for each job. What is the employment status of the Italian and Portuguese workers?
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This strike is about more than British Jobs for British workers, its about something that Government and the people of this country have forgotton. Government only exists by the will of the people. A promise made in good times, if broken is of no consequence, when the bad times come it is remembered. It is about workers holding a Labour Government to account for a promise made by our Prime Minister. Strange to think that Labour was born out of the working class mans desire to improve, and Labour have moved so far from that ideal.
Now this Government that has made itself so powerful, and made so many people reliant on it, and has took away our freedoms, may I hope, be brought down by its original purpose the working man.
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I watched Newsnight last night and it crystallised my view on this matter. The question directed at the Unite shop steward was would you have the same problem is the workers came from the Orkney’s or the Isle of Wight and the answer was yes. Like a horrible parody of the League of Gentlemen the mantra given was local jobs for local people. So the local union reps would have had the same problem if workers from Northern Ireland had got the contract.
Many of you are right this is not about EU law and foreign workers it is regrettably about protectionism on a micro scale. Also as has been pointed out this is a French company that put out a tender which was met by a firm who had its workforce ready. While they did need to be transported to the area (no different than if they came from Belfast) the workforce were already employed and trained, something it would seem the local tenders could not offer. If they could then it would not have affected local unemployment since these people would already been on someone’s pay roll.
As for the strikes elsewhere in support, what exactly are they supporting? No one has lost their jobs, nor was likely to until these strikes (remember these are wild cat strikes, without the official support of the law or the union). The people striking other than at the Total deport are not affected by the decision of one French company and their Italian contractor. Other than embarrass the Government what do these people hope to achieve? A review has already been promised and nothing can be done until that review is completed. The law has already been challenged and that challenge failed. This strike is purely political and the politics behind it worry me.
I live in an area with a high Polish population, some of my friends are Polish, almost all of them (I don’t know of any but I guess there are some unemployed) are employed and work hard. Already these people get the odd racist remark from people who either have better jobs than they do or cannot be asked to get up off their backsides and do a job. I can see this getting worse, my area has an unfortunate history of supporting nationalist political groups. I for one do not want to see my country revert back to the blatant racism of past decades.
On this one I cannot support the strikers and would rather go with the workers of the WORLD unite.
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Unsurprisingly voters are turning in increasing numbers against Labour. As Chancellor for 10 years, Brown’s finger prints are all over this growing crisis. As PM the situation has escalated with millions losing their jobs. Reckless borrowing and spending has left the country with an exposure that will take two generations to repay.
Brown’s cardinal mistake was to remove the regulatory powers of the Bank of England which effectively supervised the monitoring of banks' operating collateralized loan obligations involving sub-prime markets. Substituting with a newly created FSA, was an equally flawed mistake as they lacked expertise to identify misuse & abuse of those financial instruments. As its architect, he must admit culpability and shoulder responsibility.
‘British jobs for British workers’ were an attempt by Brown to placate the far right. Foreign contractors are here legally as a direct consequence of EU law. Perhaps now British workers will realize the implications of EU laws which take precedence over British laws. Labour cannot admit they have lost control of employment because the country must accept EU consequences. All EU laws directly affecting the UK come from unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. Commissioner Barroso, a former member of the Portuguese Communist Party, now presides over this flawed conglomerate. Despite opposition warnings, Labour has deliberately and stealthily led the country into deeper involvement with the costly EU without a promised referendum.
Having sidelined Parliament, this Government has brought this country to its knees. It will take a refreshed, responsible Tory Party to salvage what is left of our economy and address the consequences of the Lisbon Treaty.
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The core Labour voters have long deserted this government. Any working person you meet is against them. The old Socialist types (except perhaps Grandantidote) are feeling let down by them.
This issue of wildcat strikes regarding foreign workers is the tip of the iceberg and paves a nice way for the BNP.
I have been warning of this for several years now.
Those people who usually support Labour but cannot bring themselves to support the Conservatives will undoubtedly support and vote BNP. We have one in the London Assembly and a smattering throughout the country.
Somebody HAS to make a stand about this foreign stuff, immigrants etc. because it is the biggest issue facing ordinary people across the country. (Except perhaps Devon who is receiving a "white flight" from our big cities, rendering our cities into ghetto areas).
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The core Labour voters have long deserted this government. Any working person you meet is against them. The old Socialist types (except perhaps Grandantidote) are feeling let down by them.
This issue of wildcat strikes regarding foreign workers is the tip of the iceberg and paves a nice way for the BNP.
I have been warning of this for several years now.
Those people who usually support Labour but cannot bring themselves to support the Conservatives will undoubtedly support and vote BNP. We have one in the London Assembly and a smattering throughout the country.
Somebody HAS to make a stand about this foreign stuff, immigrants etc. because it is the biggest issue facing ordinary people across the country. (Except perhaps Devon which is receiving a "white flight" from our big cities, rendering our cities into ghetto areas).
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Susan Croft - you are right. Benefit recipients are not affected by this recession. Neither are pensioners.
Both groups receive a regular income from the government, except pensioners looking to augment their pensions with interest on savings are badly let down by the banks present rate of interest, I believe.
We have huge council estates here in London where none of the mothers work. Many have several children by different fathers of different colours. Most are on benefits and everybody (I believe) has a neighbour who has been or is about to be in prison. NICE!
This has been allowed by this government, as I keep on and on saying, as Blair and now this fool Brown are only interested in GLOBALISATI ON. Not good fathers of the country are they - don't put their own family first before their personal ambitions and delusions of grandeur.
Pickets are the tip of the iceberg - and they are the decent men and women who ARE working. Sad. Very very sad.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Nick,
Good to see you engaging with your public.
You have no idea how ill it makes me to say this....but Mandelson is actually right. There is nothing illegal going on here.
From all the news footage I've seen the protestors don't appear to be holding up banners saying:
'Pay the Italians more'
'Send the Italians home'
'Scrap the EU'
They are virtually all saying....
'Brown Lied'
And that's the issue. He made a promise he had no right to make to curry favour with the adoring hordes at conference, and presumably to shore up the core Labour vote at a time when he was probably considering going to the country to get a mandate of his own.
It is just one of a number of fatuous statements including 'no more boom & bust', 'Britain is best placed to weather the downturn', etc, etc.
I repeat (roughly) what I said yesterday on your previous posting ..... no-one believes a word he says anymore and it's about time the parliamentary Labour Party did the country a favour, recognised what a liability he is, and 'grew some'.
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Nick
Firstly thank you responding to the Peter Oborne's and our criticism.
I have re-read it.
But I believe your response has only solidified my view. As the overall tenet of the piece you wrote at the time was big up Gordon and run down Cameron and that Brown was a strategic genius who was giving Cameron the run around.
"Few things better illustrate the strategic confidence of Gordon Brown."
This is just before Brown went into free fall. Hardly insightful.
Your problem is the fact that many of us who blog on here see the important issues and expect you to present a blog topic with insight into the main issues of the day.
At the moment these topics are invariably bad for the Government.
It is at this point you come up with puerile opposition focused topics that are meant to divert attention from bad Government topics and our frustration grows and our trust in you falls.
Also your high profile lead in the Osbourne discusses donation Gate is still in stark contrast to your complete and utter failure to hold 3 time looser Mandy to account for much worse.
This can only be seen as double standards.
I’m sorry to say that your credibility has not been restored by your response.
I for one still see you as a conduit for the Governments message machine lacking independence and balance.
Not really worthy of the Pre Hutton BBC.
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The foreign workers issue is not just about construction / engineering workers, although they've been hit pretty bad by it. It's also about massive outsourcing to India of IT staff - there's an onshore / offshore model where they actually import Indian workers here, but obviously pay them Indian wages back home. This is now happening with accounts departments as well. Also, I know someone who works in Tescos and she says the Polish workers have a different contract in which, for example, they don't get double time for working on Sundays as she does. I understand the strikers anger - and find it totally defensible. Perhaps Brown would if he actually had to worry about feeding his family!!!
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I must be dim but I cannot really see any evidence of bias by Nick. He possesses the type of journalistic technique which whets the appetite to get involved and comment on the issue.
I feel sorry for him actually (maybe because I am a woman - is that sexist? No! Probably, oh hell). He actually inaugurated these blogs didn't he? He didn't have to did he? Now he is getting the flack.
I suppose one has to remember that the BBC as a whole has a huge Left bias which has not gone unnoticed by the general public who have voted as such on "What the Nation Thinks" online polls.
The management are probably the tail wagging the dog.
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DavidRMurrell 63
Yes, but David who started this problem, it was not the workers, it was not even the BNP, it was our own Prime Minister. If this was about racism then the workers would not have sent the BNP activist off site when he came to cause trouble. They said the BNP's goal was not their goal.
I still believe that this more to do with powerful Governments, here and in the EU who have gradually took away all peoples rights and freedoms, until they have had enough. People want a voice again, and rightly so.
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At a meeting in Schleswig-Holstein I heard a leader of one of Germany's key industries say: "We aren't free traders like the English. We believe in protecting our industries".
And didn't the French designate yoghurt making a vital industry to prevent a takeover by a British company?
So that's all right then.
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64#
Analysis absolutely bang on. Not 100% convinced about the Conservatives being the answer, in their current form, but the answer is most definately, categorically NOT another 4 years of Brown.
65#
Me too.
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Good response Nick. This has been much more of a blog since new year, and in this case I can see exactly what you mean...
The problem remains though, that what you imply in your posts could sometimes be put more bluntly - when it comes to our Prime Minister for example, the most common thing he seems to come out with these days is 'That is not what I meant' or 'That is not what I said' - You simply cannot believe a single word that comes out of Gordon Brown! You know it, I know it, Mandelson knows it... You are the political editor of the BBC and I know it must be hard to look impartial in these circumstances but for the benefit of the country, almost - just SAY it.
Gordon. Brown. is. a. lying. little. weasel.
Just like all politicians, yes. But not all of them lead our country, and most of those that HAVE ever lead our country had the decency to ask us first...
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Can anyone tell me if we won WW1 WW2?
Because looking at our country today I wonder if all those men and women that died in thoses wars were worth it.
Give it 40-50 years we wont have a Britain.
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67. flamepatricia wrote:
We have huge council estates here in London where none of the mothers work. Many have several children by different fathers of different colours. Most are on benefits........
This has been allowed by this government,
=============================
This has not been allowed by the government, it has been actively encouraged. More captive audience, more NU Labour voters.
Only now, that unemployment is rampant, has this anti-family, anti-normal marriage government suddenly released papers saying how British children are suffering from the breakdown of family and working mothers.
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derekbarker wrote:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1545141/A-million-foreign-workers-come-to-UK.html
It's not about race for god sake, dont be stupid, the trade union movement was created to fight against abuse in all it's forms
No a trade union was formed to get the best rights for it's workers by working as a collective. The whole point of the trade unions were that if the workers were united then their voice became louder.
One striker wouldn't be noticed but if all the workers striked then the bosses would have to take notice.
If a trade union was fighting against abuse it was only because it's members benefitted (i.e. fighting against exploitation of unskilled workers = greater use of the skilled union members).
It is only recently that the Unions are getting so political and are often tredding on the rights of their members to get their noses in the troughs. When they were first formed they were all about their members - pretty much like the Labour party were!
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Nick
Did you actually read what you wrote?
Mandleson says it is unreasonable to try to change the law, because that would mean changing the law...
He says this stuff, it gets recorded, it gets reported and you don't notice the stupidity of this statement?
Read it again:
"I don't think it's reasonable to seek to change the law in a way, in respect of this European directive which would extend collectively bargained entitlements to all companies and employees in adjacent employment, because that's not in UK law, let alone EU law."
If you could be bothered to ask him about oleg/tarrifs etc, would you accept an answer of:
"I am not willing to answer that question untill you already know the answer"
Oh yes, now I remember, that is exactly what he does, and you accept again and again...
Get a grip Nick, the english language is supposed to be a tool of your trade...
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Susan: I agree that Brown stuck his foot into it, right up to his elbow. It was a stupid thing to say, stupid and meaningless (completely meaningless since apparent brown did not actually mean what he said).
I know this board is not truly representative, but in the main it is populated by intelligent people, and some of the sentimental rhetoric is at best sentimental nonsense and at worse very worrying. I mean really what has who won WWII, much less WWI, go to do with the current situation? Keep Britain for the British, kick all the foreigners out and the assorted crud that seems to be creeping in here, I tell you something if this becomes the mantra of this country because times are hard, then I will follow the Poles and Czech’s etc across the border.
I don’t want to live in an ignorant xenophobic country, people can wrap the prejudices in the most glittery justification they want, its still prejudice. As I have said previously on these boards, when it comes to personal freedoms I am very liberal and I believe everyone no matter where they were born should have the same freedoms.
By the way Susan this is not directed at you, or anyone else specifically at this point, as I said at the beginning I agree with you that in part it is directly Brown’s fault this has come about, just as it is Total’s for not thinking things through. I just think this is the first signs of a cultural malaise that may be growing in the UK.
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Nick,
It is good that you are now responding to the comments on your blog but yet again you are missing the point:
a) In your linked post - supposedly countering the Labour Lackey critisism - you merely comment on the use of the language and do not question GB's ability to deliver his promise. Also note no mention of meaning simply training for British workers for British jobs which is the spin Labour are now trying to put on it.
b) Even now you have made no comment on the fact that it is GB's phrase which is being used by the strikers as the justification for their actions. If nothing else I thought you would have commented that this phrase is likely to haunt Brown in the same way that 'There is no such thing as Society' was used against Thatcher even though in both cases they may be used out of context by their opponents.
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A few key points and one big worry have surfaced in my mind over the past few days:
1. Gordo, and everyone else in politics must remember that if you 'live by the sword' you may well die by it. One of the great dangers of sound bite politics. So his 'British jobs for British workers' line has shown him to be the fool that he is (being aware of the EU regulations it was at worst a lie - at best a foolish statement he could never live up to).
2. The Unions are in disaray over this, as shown by their 'man' on Newsnight. He let slip that this is nothing to do with workers from overseas - he didn't want anyone from elsewhere else in the UK taking 'their' jobs! They need to get their story straight!
3. Tough times result in polarised views, wheras both sides of this arguement have elements of truth and sense about them.
What concerns me most about all of this is where it is going to take us next. Enoch Powell and his 'rivers of blood' speech may have been made before its time, but what he said is starting to ring true. You only need to look at history to see how the flames of revolution are fanned. All it takes is a critical mass of people who feel that their way of life is being destroyed by (to use a Cornish term) 'Incomers', buoyed up by a charismatic leader.
As it stands, that charismatic leader has yet to emerge in this country, but if they do we have the makings of a 'perfect storm'!
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A Musical ditty found on the web
My name is Prime Minister Brown
I’m an MP who’s getting you down
Was never a sinister
King or prime minister
Known to make everyone frown
You will see that I’m quick on my feet
I’m the first one to sound a retreat
I’m full of depravity
Just like Macavity
Working in 10 Downing Street
We’re the people’s political party
With a service to come to your aid
Our architect’s witty and arty
Our secretary’s skilful at trade
We send out our orders through faxes
And the world in the palm of my hand
We’re famous for fiddling with taxes, with taxes
The way that we govern the land
BN, conservatives
Liberals, preservatives
Social democracy
Total autocracy
Modern mechanical
Slightly tyrannical
Great magnanimity
What a divinity – what a divinity
He has influence notable
Cunning and quotable
No more equality
Shoddy type quality
Wonderfully cynical
Top of the pinnacle
And if you want it he
Makes a reduction on mineral quantity
Oh!
Assemble the forces elite
I’ll have them patrolling the beat
With a force and ability
Filled with nobility
Marching past 10 Downing Street
I can summon hoards
Of lords
Propose amazing ventures
And raid the banks
With tanks
Or other strange adventures
I can raise the price
Of rice
And drop the price of oil
Or make Cameron Dave
A slave
And jewellery as cheap as foil
King of humanity
Loving urbanity
Swimming in vanity
Curing inanity
Hating organity
Semi-satanity
And if you plan it he
Drives all the Tories to almost insanity
Taught sociology
Follows astrology
Loves entomology
Insect biology
Talks in tautology
Spreading his knowledge, he
Lectured at college, he
Isn’t a man who would give an apology!
Oh!
My name is Prime Minister Brown
I’m an MP who’s getting you down
Was never a sinister
King or prime minister
Known to make everyone frown
So assemble the forces elite
I’ll have them patrolling the beat
With a force and ability
Filled with nobility
Marching past 10 Downing Street
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The way i see it, the government now appears powerless to do anything to stimulate the BRITISH economy....If it aims to use public money for construction etc projects ...the scenario now facing the country is that these will inevitably be awarded to european companies that are significantly foreign state owned. As these contracts are subcontracted out to foreign companies with foreign workers our reserves are pouring overseas. The policy of GORD-ELP-US to encourage consumer lead growth will therefore not work as British consumers either won't have jobs or..when Crash Gordon sees the light and actually does something that is specifically targeted to British workers ( which will have to involve some shenanigans with Brussels as most courses of actions open to him are currently illegal) they will have to pay exhorbitant rates of tax to repay gov't debt.....The conundrum on the horizon is that if tax and national insurance rates do spiral....these foreign owned companies will relocate to ireland or isle of man or calcutta and then there will be even less jobs for british workers. What Crash Gordon has failed to appreciate during the last 15 years is that low taxation brought inward investment (subsidised by oil revenues) now that we've got no primary industry left eg
...fishing'banking,insurance,airways,steel, vehicles,mining,constuction,gas,electric,nuclear energy and the "foreigners" have now found a way around the protectionist sevice sector i believe we are heading for one almighty disaster and the only ones who will benefit will be UKIP and the BNP.
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Maggisgod.
My father and grandfather fought in the two world wars for our freedom and a different society than we have today.
My grandfather was buried alive in the trenches. My father liberated towns and villages in France and Belgium. He stepped over decapitated bodies in the Tripoli landings. He sweltered in the heat and froze in the night in Egypt. He was allocated one bottle of water a day to wash with or drink. What do you think they did - of course.
I have a letter to him from Montgomery praising and thanking him.
Shortly before he died (and in his right mind) he told me of his fears for this country and how it was becoming. He said Labour nev er works in this country - it always ends in disaster. It is out of step with the people and what is needed.
True. All too true.
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This British jobs for British works uproar will only hurry Brown to ban the BNP. Anyone looking at their election results lately, will see that they are gaining voters at an alarming rate, while the BBC's acceptable face of the extreem right, UKIP, are now out of the game.
I have just read Amity Shlaes book, The Forgotten Man, in which Roosevelt is shown not to have handled the Great Depression very well. He just thrashed around trying whatever came to hand, in the hope it would work, including persecuting people through the courts. This is just what Brown is doing, so I guess we can stop calling him Crash Gordon, and start calling him Thrash Gordon.
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82 David
I agree with just about the whole of your post, but I personally think that far from indicating the imminent onset of a 'cultural malaise' the Total issue may mark the beginning of a cultural reawakening in Britain, and an end to our collective iPod-induced lethargy.
Whoever is to blame for the Total mess [I personally blame Total, the US contractors and the European Court] the strikers do have a moral point- where's the economic and other sense in bringing over constrution workers from the continent when there's a ready-made local workforce which must be a more cost-efficient option? It's got to be dodgy, but we'll probably never find out which spiv(s) got the kickback.
The Total situation ought not to be used by Doom n Gloom whingers, Daily Mail bigots, Broken Britain political opportunists, etc. as a stick to beat 'foreigners'. I have every confidence in my fellow Britons' ability to see past these positions [even though many of the most vocal will be, like some bloggers here, on the Broken Britain end of the spectrum].
Britain is a very tolerant, friendly country relative to the rest of Europe, and will stay that way, whatever the Daily Mail lot would like to think / happen.
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82#
David, you raise a valid point. The prejudices you highlight are in some cases long held and arguably suppressed during what appeared to be the "good times" and possibly part of the darker side of human nature.
I'm thinking that it could possibly be described as the brewing of a perfect storm - where a combination of factors over the last 20-30 years are all now starting to come to a head; dumbing down of education, falling standards, globalisation, offshoring, unrestricted, uncontrolled immigration, a sprawling welfare state, the economic situation, poor regulation, the creeping hand of EU directives, voter apathy and disengagement, the blame and compensation culture; at the end of it, it could be argued that there are significant tracts of the population who are being left behind and either do not have the nous or the inclination to take a broader, longer term political view - if they take any kind of political view at all - and thereby unable to take any kind of action to mitigate the effects of what is happening all around them. They have no comprehension of what they are letting themselves in for until the day arrives. And, maybe, just maybe that day is arriving and they dont like the look of it.
There are political parties such as the BNP, such as UKIP, who will seek to make capital out of prejudices and fears - this is potentially their moment in the sun to spring out and say I told you so, now, wont you trust me, we know how you feel, we will listen to you. That is part and parcel of the political spectrum that exists in a so called liberal democracy such as ours.
I can understand why a poster referred to the fallen of WW1 and WW2. People gave their lives to protect values and a way of life in violent conflicts. They would surely, not appreciate the reality of what their country has become, what has become of those values; what would they think of armed teenage gangs bumping off other kids with knives and firearms? What would they make of the nation grinding to a halt after one snowfall? Even the height of the blitz didnt stop London running buses!
It is ultimately down to us, what we have let this country become and what we have allowed the political establishment to do without so much as a whimper, let alone a pointy finger in the chest. As I've said, its all well and good us letting off steam on forums such as this, but that isnt going to change anything. Our political leaders will only change when we hold them to account and pull their snouts out of the trough.
And, collectively as a nation, we dont have the stomach or the gumption or the backbone for such a thing.
Under the current rules, Total have done nothing wrong. The unions didnt see it coming and did nothing, just kept on beating their gums about money and indulging in their usual junkets, lining their own pockets. The workers are too politically ignorant to educate themselves to see it coming. Thems the rules. By voting TB and GB back in, in 2005, we gave our consent to it. Gordon never gave a second thought to it, all he had his eyes on were the keys to No10. Nothing else has ever interested him, certainly not the fate of the electorate. So long as he's the king of the playground, he could not care less. Its not possible to kick all the foreigners out, that is hopelessly unrealistic, and in truth unwarranted. Plus, we are an Island nation of immigrants anyway and have been for over a thousand years or more.
People need to wise up and educate themselves politically and engage with the system to change it. All of these things that are coming to pass.... we let it happen.
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Falmouth:
100% totally agree. Just pray the "Charismatic Leader" doesnt emerge from the far right. Signs arent good though...
You listening Derek? What have I been telling you for the last 8 months??
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Plaudits to Nick for responding to opinions on this blog.
I watched "V for Vendetta" the other day. Frightening stuff when you think of all the "anti-terror" legislation and surveillance that has been brought in.
The government need to get a grip and not fuel an underlying tide of xenophobia. I think we do need to look more inward to help ourselves more. But, this includes tackling why migrant labour is used in preference to a UK based workforce. I have read examples on these message boards of construction workers not having the correct accreditation. Surely this is an enforement issue and should be part of any contract.
We also need to examine our on conscience. We need to be better skilled and prepared to put the hard work in. A system that hands an easy life to all and sundry must be curbed. Society needs to help those in need and encourage others to earn their keep.
I still think the best solution to all the problems is a fresh start. At the moment we seem to be sinking ever further down.
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THis little episode is the most obvious example yet of newlabour spin going wrong.
Put simply, Gordon Brown and Peter Mandelson have become steadily ensnared in the inevitable consequences of their own failings.
It is not possible to govern by endless hyperbole and rhetoric without policy implementation; you will simply be brought down by your own words in time.
They are now being brought down; the very social contracts newlabour tried to impose on the electorate - no more boom and bust, an end to child poverty, British jobs for British workers, education education education (we've slipped to 24th form 8th in world maths proficency) all these contracts have been broken by newlabour and Gordon Brown themselves.
There is nowhere for them to go except out of office and into exile.
Call an election.
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Nick
I suggest you read what #39 PurpleDogzzz said. Some very pertinent points, especially:
"Just because the Total contract might be legal, does not make it morally acceptable. It is discriminatory.
The fact that it may [be] legal shows how bloody awful the EU laws are."
I am a 90% Europhile - despite what the media says the EU has on balance been VERY good for the UK over the last 40 years and over 2/3 of our trade is with the EU.
But silly and ill-conceived EU Directives, which the UK honours to the letter and more but other countries ignore when they doesn't suit them, just gives ammunition to the anti-Eu sentiment common in the UK.
And I fear the commentators who argue that Brown's silly statement about "British Jobs ofr British Workers" could become his greatest gaffe, on a par with "No such thing as society" may prove right.
This dispute is about much more than "kick out the foreigners". It's also a protest against the selling off of UK industry, about big business exploiting their workers generally, and about the current and previous governments actively encouraging the greed of said big business, and doing nothing to rein in their rapaciousness.
For instance, BP have just announced a 39% increase in profit to $25 billion despite a big fall in the last quarter of 2008. Total are presumably making similar profits. No-one could argue that they can't afford to pay their workers and sub-contractors top wages, and could make sure their sub-contractors treat their employees fairly.
I suspect if an election were held today the Labour party would be drubbed. Which is why we won't get one, and those who call for it are whistling in the wind. McCavity knows that he'll be out when an election comes, and will presumably now hang on until almost the last possible date.
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Dear Nick
Well what HAS Thatcher, Blair and Brown done for England
The Answer is NOTHING.
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Sorry Nick, but like everyone else I think your linking the original point actually proves the allegation.
In fact, the commentators at the time asked you about this at the time. For example :
* 3.
* At 11:55 AM on 10 Sep 2007,
* Ed wrote:
Nick, the clearly unbridled bias now shown towards this governments current leader is becoming unsufferable. You may as well just give up any pretence of reporting and run a banner headline saying 'All hail the Great Gordon'.
I know you've a mortgage and bills to pay like the rest of us, but how about a return to the independent political comment that you were very good at once upon a time?
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Nick
I'll be brief because I am in danger of merely repeating what many others have already posted.
Your justification in the PS is that you identified the statement as political posturing/positioning, designed to wrong foot the opposition, and that the statement had no intended basis in fact or aspiration.
So that's alright then?
I bet Nixon wished he was President today if that represents the new age of political journalism.
Facts may not be as intriguing but they are a darn site more relevant. Trouble is, they are not so easy to find.
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People asking why we Brits cant take pay cuts to be more competitive, simple we have family life, mortgages, bills, community services, national services, all of which we Brits have worked hard to pay for and support, we are now taxed to the hilt with stealth taxes, our foreign energy supplies are higher here than most EU countries, our public transport system expensive, so we Brits, are at a complete disadvantage to foreign workers coming on mass, staying on boats, sharing accommodation and expenses ie rent, bills, council taxes, etc.
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although saying that, @ 98. many Brits are taking paycuts, accepting pay freezes, working shorter weeks etc just to hold on to the jobs they have got.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I get the feeling the Total business is the straw that broke the camel's back. It's been seething and boiling up for a long time. The working man has no voice or representation in Parliament. The unions and management are interdependent - at times like now, unions have only limited power unless wanting to get the workforce jobless and homeless.
But the workers have had enough. They want their interests looked after and the "Labour Party" and Unions are no longer able to provide.
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@40... 05002g
Hear Hear. spot on.
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Workers of the World Unite!!
Embrace Socialism!!
Hold on, no wait - if it means our comrades can actually come to this country and work for lower wages than us..... well, I'm afraid I'm going to have to renounce Socialism.
I'm still going to vote Labour though.
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All this British jobs for British workers was going to kick off one day anyway.
The British worker is fed with being told who to work with. They are fed up with outsiders coming in and undercutting their wage.
I worked at a warehouse in Coalville, Leicestershire and was made redundant while around 20 Albanians kept their jobs on that last in first out idea.
Now these Albanians were taking their wage and send 3/4 home, so not putting money back into our economy. I have a wife, child and a mortgage. When redundaces happen all none Brits should be shown the door first.
In my eye James Brown is talking out of his backside and has no idea of what is happining.
BROWN CALL AN ELECTION.
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100 aye.
We're back to the perils of nationalism. This time it's Little Britishers who want to keep the cake to themselves. Luckily, they're still a tiny minority down here, despite their over-representation on BBC blogs.
On WWs 1 & 2, didn't we sub-contract part of the jobs to the Russians and Yanks, or was it them sub-contracting us?
On Total, the contracting process stinks of oily fish.
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There's revolution in the air on this here blog...
Gordon is fond of pointing out that this is now a Global Age and blah blah blah de blah.
The interesting thing about this story is that it shows how people care more about their local environment than the global one.
I don't think people care much for the Global Age. It's been pretty cruel to them so far.
Are our employees trained for the Global Age?
Are our children educated for the Global Age?
Is our infrastructure prepared for the Global Age?
Are our financial systems prepared for the Global Age?
I think the answer is "no, apparently not".
Given that, you'd have to be a right numpty to be running around playing at Architect of the Global Age when your own house isn't in order.
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What these protesting workers need to realize is that its all too late.
We are completely subservient to EU laws.
Where were the protesters during the campaign for a referendum on the EU Treaty?
If you did'nt care about an issue of principle then - ie the Nu Labour election promise, then just accept where we are and get over it.
The establishment including BBC are all pro EU so there is no chance of protests succeeding.
Only the French workers stand up and create a fuss when threatened.
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100 aye_write
Sorry dont understand what your trying to say with your post?
Are you saying that we should have just let the Germans come in take over our country and kill millions of people or that we did the right thing, beat them and how sad it is we now just let anyone in.
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100#
A-W, come on that was unprovoked. I'm sure thats not what fp meant.
I've tried to explain it a bit further in one of my posts as well.
The fallen of WW1 and 2 had the values of their generations and thats what they gave their lives for. Our generation, for the most part dont have any values (not ones they're willing to vote for, let alone die for).
What I think fp was getting at is that if these men and women could have foreseen what their sacrifice was going to lead to, they may have had second thoughts.
As I mentioned before;
1) Kids with guns and knives, violent drug culture
2) the burgeoning welfare state
3) Postcode lottery health service
4) dumbing down of education standards
5) Politicisation of the police
6) Politics as a career not a vocation
7) Public service as a means to feather your own nest instead of putting something back
8) Uncontrolled immigration bringing people half way across the world to do the jobs we cant be arsed to, until unempoyment goes up, then we seek to pass the blame
9) the breakdown of the family structure
10) The current economic situation
11) A litany of broken political promises.
One case that immediately springs to mind is the old poem of "they promised us homes fit for heroes... what they gave us were heroes fit for homes".. that was after WW1, so... maybe its ingrained in all of us.
One of the things that FP was alluding to, I think was that for people of the generations she is referring to, Labour may have been their natural political choice, representing the industrial working classes that made up a significant part of the non Officer class of WW2 and FP's grandfather found them wanting. For a change.
WW1 was slightly different, Labour didnt exist and Lloyd George made such a complete horlicks of it that the Liberals havent been allowed anywhere near power since and the age was more of deference to what were (wrongly) deemed to be wiser heads and significantly more class ridden (the aristocracy having significantly more political influence than what they do now).
Thats not to decry the sacrifice that what some would describe as "toffs" made in WW2, I gladly have a profound respect for anyone who has lost their life in the service of their country regardless of when or where it was.
Put bluntly, at that time the nation's back was against the wall and the public responded. These days, if it were ever to happen again.... the same end result wouldnt happen. Even in a non nuclear conflict, we'd be over-run and occupied within 3 weeks. This generation hasnt got the backbone for what their parent and grandparents did 60 years ago. We've become fat, lazy, indulgent and whiny wanting everything NOW. And someone else can pay for it.
Though you and I get on reasonably well and now I think we have reached an accord on what I'll euphamistically describe as "the other subject" :-) , if you're going to start chucking stones around about racism........
Wow, thats a mighty big glass house you're living in my friend..... :-)
Baiting FP for a bit of lunchtime sport is one thing, she's big enough to defend herself... but I'm asking you politely, dont disrespect the war dead.
I'm happy to stand corrected fp, if I've read you wrong.
I dont think I have.
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#103 hobbehod
We should not say that one man's hour is worth another man's hour, but rather that one man during an hour is worth just as much as another man during an hour.
Time is everything, man is nothing: he is at the most time's carcass.
Do you see?
The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism.
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Perhaps if the workers stepped back and looked at WHY an Italian company can come in and do the job cheaper then local workers they might find that their own Unions are the cause of the problems!
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Nick
So from your ps you are effectively saying:-
"Gordon Brown tells lies in public, in the hope of getting people to agree with him. Should anyone do so, then he will denounce them for expressing the view that he just professed to support"
So Nick, if that is the case, then how do we (the public) tell when Brown is telling us these lies, and when he is being genuine?
Does he even know? For instance, he says that he is brignging forward public spending - meanwhile currently scheduled public spending is actually being cut (at least £500 million in public sector building projects has been put on hold or abandoned in brighton alone)... Much of what he says never comes to pass - or even the exact opposite comes to pass...
Fundamentally, political parties have to support 'the system' - but the people are getting tired, and questioning whether 'the system' actually works any more.
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Aye_Write: I think that might be a tad harsh review of the “my grandfather fought in the war” bit.
By the way you may be interested to know that I have helped the Scottish struggle today. Well actually I paid for a Scot to return home! The poor chap is a beggar near Liverpool Street, who as a soft touch I normally give a couple of quid to whenever I see him. Well today, after I gave him the two quid, he came up with a sob story about recently giving up drugs and wanting to return home so he could stop begging as well. To be honest I could not care less if he was or is taking drugs, life on the street is hard enough for me to accept such vices, nor really if he is going home (though if I see him again next week I might be less willing to give him his two quid). The fact is its cold and wet in London at the moment and he had the willing and courage to come up with the sob story, so I think twelve quid, considering my salary is only fair.
See Scottish I am not whole evil! Just mostly, that and a soft touch!
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Hi Nick,
Slightly off-topic, but how about this one?
Jack Straw is looking to reform the Upper House (and to deflect away from the four Labour peers to the Tories, Jeffrey Archer or Conrad Black). Straw says anyone who has broken the law should be kicked out of the Lords.
Surely that should include Peter Mandelson, who (as he admitted) lied on a mortgage application form.
See you in the pub.
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Maggyisgod: Basically no not all foreigners should get the sack first. If we are being fair the worst workers should see the door first not matter their race or country of origin. I am not saying that happened in your case, I am guessing you were just more expensive. To be honest that’s not always a bad thing, where I work three managers got the chop rather than make people redundant that worked under them, because the saving of getting rid of them was the equivalent of two underlings getting the chop.
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However it is dressed up, this dispute is Gordon Brown's personal fault. When Brown made his awful speech at the 2007 Labour Party Conference, what exactly did he mean by "British Jobs for British Workers"? Don't blame the strikers for taking him literally at his word. Brown is a weasel who will use any sound bites, lies and catch phrases to cadge votes. Our ghastly "Prime Minister" said "British Jobs for British Workers", when he knew full well that the Government could not deliver it in practice because of EU law.
Besides, what was the Government doing by issuing 151,000 work permits and visas to non-EU residents last year? Labour are a bunch of lying hypocrits and they have been exposed as such!
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#98 tisfedup
Has it pretty much right.
Living the way we do, costs what it costs, and has to be paid for.
I don't want people in the UK living in trailer parks.
We got rid of our slums and sweatshops -- we don't want to 'support' them abroad, and we don't wan't to import them.
Mandleson may be happy to make the UK in to a country of serfs, but then he wouldn't be affected would he?
A real worry is that the 'labour' solution to square this circle can only be to put up taxes massively, and give it back to british workers as allowance for which only nationals qualify... (taking their cut for admin as usual)...
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#105 MunichMadrid7980
Hello,
Agree with you, this affair makes those who are moaning (inc, flame) look very petty and sad.
I don't, in case you thought I did, subscrible to any "Scottish workers for Scottish jobs" or similar.
Agree with (#10. At 4:21pm on 02 Feb 2009) threnodio in MM's. This fuss and bluster is wholly a reaction to the bite of the recession.
I attack flame because she racisitly mentioned "Don't get your sporran in a twist now will you?" before.
I suggested if she also found
"Don't get your afro in a knot..."
or
"Don't get your bra in a tangle..."
not to be racist or sexist she should have a good long look at herself.
I don't treat you English in any way based on the fact that you are (rather like you for it actually).
Which takes me to you Fuber. I will talk to you later :-(
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Nick,
I say good luck to those striking.
Who cares about what the EU law says? The workers of this country have been betrayed by this government over a number of years - that is the issue, not some point of law.
This Total issue is merely the straw that broke the camels back.
The political and media classes, in many respects, have ignored the plight of the ordinary working man. Both unfettered economic and also illegal immigration have caused significant price competition for manual workers over the last few years.
People in nice cushy offices, may be aware of the issue, but do not really understand that there are millions of people in the UK who have been under economic pressure from migrants long before the credit crunch started.
The BNP were alert to this issue and started growing in popularity. When Gordon saw that he was losing votes to the BNP he decided to borrow their rallying call "British jobs for British workers" - with obvious disastrous consequences.
So the strikers are in the right - they are fighting a moral point -- that they have been badly let down by this government. The strikers are not fighting a technical point of EU law.
Labour have now started their usual distasteful spinning and cast the strikers in the role of Xenophobe.
The person, however, who poured petrol on the xenophobic-bonfire was of course Mr G.Brown in 2007 when he claimed the BNP's slogan as his own as part of his stalled general election bid.
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Nick
Any chance of a word on this
Are ZaNuLabour up to their postal ballot tricks again?
By-election registers go missing
The SNP has called for an inquiry after it emerged marked electoral registers for the Glenrothes by-election were lost by the courts.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7867022.stm
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Re 107,
I totally agree with you on your point, and, to all those people who are complaining (and voted Labour).....
This is what you voted for (97, etc)! Everything that has happened since 1997 is down to you.
TB, GB, Nu Labour, you believed them!
Just remember that at the next election and start asking proper questions and hold your MP/party to account.
Roll on 2010.
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I don't think the issue of this case is actually 'the issue' - as many have said if a british company (if any are still in business!!) won a contract and they took british labour abroad there would not be a problem.
The actual issue here is tabloid newspapers stirring up a massive unease towards foreigners, with daily articles on immigrants this immigrants that! The end result is a very closed minded (and frankly far right)view held by a vast majority of the popultaion.
The good news from this unrest is that it appears life long labour supporters have finally woken up to the utter contempt this government/unellected dictatorship has treated us with. surely in a democracy a change in prmie minister should demand an election. Crash is no better than Mugabe only instead of hyperinflation we are currently on hyper deflation!
I know the torries have no revolutionaary idea on how to get us out of this mess but allowing Brown to continue on his ego trip for one second longer is unacceptable. Crash managed to send firms into administration in the boom due to his robbing of pensions, how we expect him to help out in this crisis is beyond me!!
It should be made a law that anyone in government has to have a minimum 15 years experience in the private sector to avoid socialist public sector numpties like brown ever getting into power and spunging off the rest of us!!
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#108 maggyisgod
"100 aye_write
Sorry dont understand what your trying to say with your post?
Are you saying that we should have just let the Germans come in take over our country and kill millions of people or that we did the right thing, beat them and how sad it is we now just let anyone in."
No!
I know that flamepatricia thinks I am but an ignorant Scot, but seriously I used to be quite good at school :-(
I was suggesting that flame's rant (and going by her other posts on 'Yates 2' ) meant she was picking up on the foreigners theme to this story to say that what was the point of her grandfather protecting her country from invasion when now on the industry front 'the same' is happening (i.e. foreign workers taking British jobs.) I know she is in favour of 'less people' as she mentions, in principle...
I have annoyed you mentioning the wars (the Germans) but wait, flame actually brought it up, but she does not get slated for bringing the war dead into it.
If you re-read my post, I think she very much ought not to have.
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Nick, all these tories on here are moaning how the Lisbon treaty sold us down the river.
A week or so ago all these same Tories were on here telling us what a wonderful guy Ken Clark is.
Yet Ken Clark was the most vociferous of all the Tories in debate supporting the constitutional treaty and the Lisbon treaty and discribing any abjections to it as being absurd, be interesting to hear Kens views on whats going on now after all he is supposed to shadow Mandelson.
When the Tories were in power these types of wildcat strikes were decried and maggie brought in laws to prevent them.
Now the Tories Back the strikers who apparently were the tories enemy, being trade unionists.
They of course are all good guys now, yet when miners and their families were starving in the eighties the police were brought in on horses and riot gear and the miners were considered by Tories as rabble. So much for Tory consistency
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My first political act, as a young man, was to vote to stay in the European Economic Community, as it was then (we never voted on the European Union which of course didn't exist at the time).
At the time the centre was broadly in favour of the EEC, The left led the opposition to the EEC, supported by a smaller group around Enoch Powell. Most of the centre-right supported the EEC as a bulwark against socialism in one country, which which was the ideology of many on the Labour Left at the time.
As the Conservatives under Thatcher moved against further extension of EU powers (once the Single European Act was passed) the Labour Party instinctively supported further European integration.
We may come full circle. I predict that after Labour lose the next election opposition to the EU will rise on the left (and not only in the UK). Expect to see the Labour Party split from top to toe on this issue. It will dominate Labour Party politics for the next decade.
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1.
Call a referendum on Europe. Give the people a say (not what the EU says).
2.
Call an election.
If this truly is a democracy, it's about time the electorate had a real say and not just be subject to manipulation and the arrogance of an internal and external political elite.
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It seems clear that if there are laws being broken then legal action should ensue.
All I see are lots of workers (white British - like me) angry with something that I doubt they fully understand. And they are not helping the situation in the long run.
My father works in Italy doing a job that could likely be done by a local from the region; presumably he is taking advantage of the same laws that these workers wish to do away with.
What concerns me at this point in time is the England - Italy Six Nations game on Saturday. Big potential for protesters and violence there. I very much doubt that the national anthems will be respected by either set of fans.
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#109 Fubar_Saunders
"...if you're going to start chucking stones around about racism........
Wow, thats a mighty big glass house you're living in my friend..... :-)"
Am I racist Fuber?
Have I treated you that way? (There was ample opportunity.) Would I ever seek to hurt you or anyone for being English?
"Baiting FP for a bit of lunchtime sport is one thing, she's big enough to defend herself... but I'm asking you politely, dont disrespect the war dead."
OMG :-(
Please read my earlier responses #118, #123 (and flame's posts to me at the end of 'Yates 2' thread).
One of us is being crass and bringing up inappropriate references...that they shouldn't....
Fuber, you let me down :-(
Please think about what you've accused me of.
(I'm glad it's raining .....)
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#124 grandantidote
Nice to see you back here, any chance of that unreserved apology yet, seeing as Frank Field restated his point on the BBC Daily Politics Show yesterday?
Ken Clarke has agreed to abide by the tory Party settled view on europe, so that is a non-story.
More relevant is your beloved Labour Party selling British workers down the river (Humber ;-) )
I do agree with you that it would be interesting to hear Ken Clarke challenge Mandelson on this issue. Oh hang on, he can't can he, because Mandelson isn't accountable to the Commons.
Maybe he should renounce his peerage like that good socialist Tony Benn did, stand in a by-election, gain some legitimacy and then stand up in the Commons and be subject to proper scrutiny.
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#124 grandantidote
"When the Tories were in power these types of wildcat strikes were decried and maggie brought in laws to prevent them.
Now the Tories Back the strikers who apparently were the tories enemy, being trade unionists.
They of course are all good guys now, yet when miners and their families were starving in the eighties the police were brought in on horses and riot gear and the miners were considered by Tories as rabble. So much for Tory consistency"
===
Speaking of consistency, what happened to those champions of the downtrodden working man, the Unions and the Labour Party. Who are they supporting now, please remind me?
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#109 Fubar_Saunders
(continued)
Fuber, let me just be clear.
Your comments hurt.
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118#
Oh bloody hell, now I'm for it...... :-)
Or as will be written on my tombstone:
"Always in the s...t . . .
...Only the depth varied"
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This seems a great opportunity to review the financial ties between the unions and Labour, i.e. the unions and the government.
Labour has received over 10 million pounds from the unions since 2002 and the unions have recently guaranteed all of Labour's bank debts.
Now guess what might come in handy during election campaigns? Indeed: cash. But the unions will not take their cash to the other politicial parties, so Mandelson can utter the pro-business noises while the former union grandees who have made it into parliament keep the unions at bay.
More importantly, what do you think the unions' sway over Labour and hence over policy implies for UK productivity? I would guess not beneficial, but he, I love Maggie!
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The unions can blow all they want but it won't get them anywhere. Total put the job out to tender as project. They want someone who will deliver an end-to-end product
Of course you can go to the unions and hire local labour (skilled) however, can they deliver a complete project and hit the ground running? Or will they need months to plan and recruit (which costs plenty by the way) The last time I checked unions were not valid subcontracting companies
Whilst most of the subcontracting companies are no doubt mainly comprised of union members, the two are not the same
There is a huge difference between using local labour (ie individuals) and using local subcontracing companies (ie can deliver everything with no start up cost/delay)
BTW - it will be cheaper to use foreign labour, I have some friends who do this kind of work and they get extremely well paid with very favourable conditions (ie 2 weeks on 1 week off, the week off with full pay) this costs a fortune for anyone hiring them (i'm not arguing this is wrong!)
You cannot compare this with what a skilled worker from Portugal will get paid. Whilst they will get a good wage with regards to Portuguese standards; it would be probably be half of what you will need to pay 'local' labour
Plus - there's less chance of them going out on strike on you; delaying the project further and costing who knows how much
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Nick,
by the way Mr Mandelson is being disingenuous in his comments about Total not breaking the law and that the majority of workers employed at the Lindsey Oil refinery are British.
No one is saying any different.
This issue is about a NEW contract awarded by Jacobs to an Italian sub-contractor, Irem, to build a new HDS (hydrodesulphurisation) unit at Lindsey.
Irem, and Alstom at Staythorpe via their sub-contractors Montpressa and FMM, have declared that they will not consider employing British workers.
That is what the workers are protesting about.
Mandelson is trying to employ a smokescreen and resort to xenophobia, whereas there seems to be a primae facie case to support the workers' claims.
Surely a good political or business editor could get to the bottom of this?
Do you know of any, perchance?
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don't knoiw what that chap Aye Right wrote as it was moderated.
All I can say is HITLER was in favour of globalisation, BROWN is in favour of globalisation.......
Ladies and gentlemen of the Jury I rest my case.
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124#
The fact that Arthur Scargill's engineering of the strike in 1984 had only one objective (bring down Thatcher, in the way that Joe Gormley's NUM brought down Ted Heath) is niether here nor there is it?
Arthur reaped what he sowed.
He's did alright out of it though didnt he? He's not gone poor, compared to some of the men who'se industry he destroyed to feed his monstrous communist ego.
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Interesting piece Nick.
But is the truth not simply that even after the brown stuff has hit the economic fan New Labour are still trying to be all things to all people and failing? They should be entirely focused on the realties of life.
Yet when I noticed Mandelson smiling as he walked behind Wen Jiabao personally I could not help but conclude that maybe Jiabao had a yacht in the area.
In other words Labour are still remote and disconnected from the people.
What is more interesting is that the Unions have very good research arms so is this an opening salvo in a focused Union action - or is it a local faction who have "gone rogue"?
Much ado about not much?
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Nick,
as a follow on to my #135, taken from the Socialist World website:
A ninety-day redundancy notice had been issued, around mid November 2008, at Lindsey Oil Refinery (LOR), Lincolnshire, England, for Shaws' workforce.
This meant that by 17 February 2009, a number of Shaws' construction workers (LOR) would be made redundant.
The day before the Christmas holiday, Shaws' shop-stewards reported to the men that a part of the contract on LOR's HDS3 plant had been awarded to IREM, an Italian company.
The Stewards explained that Shaws had lost one third of the contract to IREM, who would be employing their own Portuguese and Italian workforce, numbering 200-300.
Stewards and Union Officials asked to meet with IREM after Christmas, to clarify the proposal (i.e. if IREM would employ British labour?). Shaws' workforce were told that the IREM workforce would be housed in floating barges, in Grimsby docks, for the duration of the job. They would be bussed to work in the morning, and bussed to and from the barge for lunch.
IREM workers would work from 7.30am - 11.30am and 13.00 - 1700. On Saturdays, they would work 4 hours, to make up a working week of 44 hours. The normal working week is 44 hours, over 5 days, from 7.30 -1600, finishing at 1400 on Fridays (most workers work overtime).
Normal breaks include 10 minutes in the morning and a 30 minute dinner break. Stewards were told that IREM workers would be paid the national rate for the job. To date this has not been confirmed.
After Christmas, the nominated Shop Stewards entered into negotiations with IREM. Meanwhile, a National Shop Stewards Forum for the construction Industry held a meeting in London to discuss Staythorpe Power Station, where the company Alstom were refusing to hire British labour, relying on non-union Polish and Spanish workers instead.
Workers’ solidarity
It was decided that all Blue Book sites, covered by the National Agreement for the Engineering and Construction Industry (NAECI), should send delegations down to Staythorpe to protest against Alstoms' actions.
The workforce on the LOR site sent delegations. Then, on Wednesday, 28 January 2009, Shaws' workforce were told by the Stewards that IREM had stated they would not be employing British labour.
The entire LOR workforce, from all subcontracting companies, met and voted unanimously to take immediate unofficial strike action.
The following day, over a thousand construction workers from LOR, Conoco and Easington sites descended outside LOR's gate to picket and protest.
This was the spark that ignited the spontaneous unofficial walk outs of our brother construction workers across the length and breadth of Britain.
This worker solidarity is against the 'conscious blacking' of British construction workers by company bosses who refuse to recruit skilled British labour in the U.K.
The workers of LOR, Conoco and Easington did not take strike action against immigrant workers. Our action is rightly aimed against company bosses who attempt to play off one nationality of worker against the other and undermine the NAECI agreement.
THE B.N.P. (far-right British National Party) SHOULD TAKE HEED, U.K. CONTRUCTION WORKERS WILL NOT TOLERATE 'ANOTHER RACIST ATTEMPT' TO SEVER FRATERNAL RELATIONS WITH WORKERS FROM OTHER NATIONS
===
So the quarrel is with employers, not workers from other EU countries.
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127. At 12:58pm on 03 Feb 2009, Fabius_Maximus wrote:
...
What concerns me at this point in time is the England - Italy Six Nations game on Saturday. Big potential for protesters and violence there. I very much doubt that the national anthems will be respected by either set of fans.
===
I think you will find that rugby fans are amongst the most generous and fair-minded of any sports followers. I don't foresee any problems. If it was England v Italy in football however....!
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OK I will elucidate.
The main problem is too many people. That said I will not retract it.
Also, great contributory factors are:
Knife crime
Family breakdown
Greed - food, alcohol, and the huge cathedral with aisles that is Tesco
Lack of freedom of speech
Global warming (look outside!) from which thousands of people have made a packet
Re-cycling (which costs a fortune and nobody knows where to recycle it to - India is the current favourite!)
Poor schooling (sometimes hardly any child speaks or understands English)
Poor health care (from residential homes to hospitals there is dirt, lack of interest and care and inappropriately high pay for agency and foreign staff)
However, MOST of the above IS DUE to millions of people invading us just like the Germans wanted to in the two world wars. This time though Brown et al have encouraged it or turned a blind eye and it is one huge unmitigated disaster.
The politician who actually doesn't put their job first and comes out and says it will be the politician who gains huge support.
Maybe AyeRight (is he Scottish?) doesn't have these problems but he should come here to London and see what some areas are like - we are overrun and are actually being run by councils of almost completely foreign people.
Don't care if you call me racist. Call me what you like. What I say is FACT. You cannot and should not deny it.
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131#
A-W:
I've re-read the comments you mentioned.
Although I thought at the time that the reason for posting what I did was right, that fp was referencing the war dead in the right context, I realise that my tone in my post to you and the implicit accusation of racism were unwarranted. Nor did I take enough notice to realise that there was history between you and Patricia, until I saw your response to Munich.
For that I am honestly and unreservedly sorry.
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aye_write wrote:
I attack flame because she racisitly mentioned "Don't get your sporran in a twist now will you?" before.
True that can be taken as a racist comment, but by the same token so could most of the negative comments made by Scots about England's inability to deal with the snow yesterday.
I personally find it offensive when Northerns and Scots make negative comments about the "south" when they really mean London and the "south east" - perhaps I should consider those comments to be racist?
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#136 flamepatricia
**IT WAS NOT MODERATED UNTIL YOU ARRIVED!**
Yet a post where you were clearly racist to me yesterday was not (see my #118) I had to accept.
**FLAMEPATRICIA HAS FRIENDS IN THE MODERATION TEAM!!!!**
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'They argue that it should prevent "undercutting" of British workers by giving foreign workers the terms and conditions produced by collective agreements negotiated between unions and employers.'
Hm. So in other words, the unions believe that they have the right to operate a price-fixing cartel?
Not sure I have a lot of sympathy with that.
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#137
Hey! fubar, Come On! tell it like it was.
The 1984 miners strike was initiated by the thatcher government, thatcher pre planned
the closure of the pit's before she even took office, FACT'
Know fubar, if this dipute is settled in favour of the said company, ever worker in Britain can say goodbye to 90 day notice of a change to their terms and condition's, the vast majority of British worker's will most probably lose out on their final salary pension scheme, and a low wage economy will engulf these isle's.
Would you be happy to revert back to slave labour.
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#143
You're absolutely right, I've said things about 'the south' loads of times, when I was really referring to londoners and the south-east in general. The South West is markedly different in almost every way.
That said, you are ALL a bunch of shandy-drinking nancy boys.
What?
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Aye Right you are a strange fellow. I can assure you did not refer you to the moderators. Why don't you ask them?
If I had I would have admitted.
You must have noticed that I am a very honest and forthright person. I do not lie.
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136 FP: What a facile and pointless comment. So you are equating Gordon Brown’s politics with Hilter’s fantastic and we are now supposed to take your comments seriously!?!
Or to put it another way Churchill believed in eugenics, Hiller believed in eugenics. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury I also rest my case.
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Is this the beginning of the end for Labour ?
Whatever you thought of Blair, he silenced the eurosceptics in the party, apart from the usual old Labour suspects.
Now we have a current and a former cabinet minister setting out their stall as potential eurosceptic future leaders of the party.
Even if Labour don't lose the next election, there will be many casualties, and most of those lost MPs will be pro-european, creating the possibility of Labour splitting down the middle just as the Tories are getting their act together on Europe.
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Check out this story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7866938.stm
I have picked out a quote that i think is inflammatory:
"Many places in government these days have people working from overseas and maybe they don't understand."
Admittedly it's from Mike Kearsley, director general of the Flag Institute, so what'd he know? But I'm going to run with it.
Does anyone actually know how many people from overseas are actually working in our government?
It'd be interesting to find out. The word on the street is 'many'...
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As we are touching on national identity here, it is interesting that neither the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary, nor the Business Secretary seem to know how their flag should be flown.
http://croydonian.blogspot.com/2009/02/pm-who-loves-his-country-so-much-that.html
Or could it be more subtle than that? A flag flown upside down is a distress signal.
Hmmm, maybe it was intentional after all!
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The other quote I liked was:
"Having the flag upside down historically was a sign of distress. You might have it put it up on a fort to warn those in the know - other British forces - that there was trouble from the enemy."
Mandelson does look distressed in the picture....
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#142 Fubar_Saunders
Fubar, you're alright. I'm so soppy I would have still liked you anyway, you neep (turnip, it's a Scottish thing :-)
I am used to people getting me wrong. Unfortunately (for me) it doesn't form the basis of whether I like them (actually I see my personality as a barrier to gaining those I like as friends!)
So, as you are nice, you are forgiven.
But have a look at fp's post #141 above and be glad I am not making you grovel. I saw that in her LONG before she posted such "nuts" openly (long before the 'history' you reference).
So I hope you see I, as usual, was much more perceptive than most (apart from maybe oldnat and Anglophone) give me credit for. I could take you all down if I wanted to! ;-) ;-)
But I'd rather instead you liked me. But, I'll deal with it...
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By all means investigate the Total deal and find out if everything was above board. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater as protectionism will do precious little protecting. I am a UK citizen working abroad and like to think I am employed on my merits. If you can't compete on price then you have to compete on skills and quality. UK relies on many 'foreign' companies to employ UK citizens so don't make the country unattractive to them!
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#146 derekbarker
Hello derek, you said:
"Know fubar, if this dipute is settled in favour of the said company, ever worker in Britain can say goodbye to 90 day notice of a change to their terms and condition's, the vast majority of British worker's will most probably lose out on their final salary pension scheme, and a low wage economy will engulf these isle's."
===
I think you will find that Gordon Brown has already destroyed final salary pension schemes, due to his tax grab.
"Many final salary schemes have already closed to new recruits - not much more than a quarter of private sector employers still hold them open.
But the NAPF's finding that some of Britain's biggest private companies, employing tens of thousands of workers, are planning to close them to existing members points to a new trend."
Another hole in your foot, derek, it must hurt by now!
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@107 kcband8, "Where were the protesters during the campaign for a referendum on the EU Treaty?"
Most of them will have been working their socks off, putting in extra hours to try to safeguard their jobs. They will have been showing the British tolerance and acceptance that we are famous for and they have been getting severely ripped off by the government in the process!
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141#
Patricia, Aye-Write is no less a woman than you are.
I dont dispute what you say, having spent the last 5 years in the capital and marrying an Irish woman from a large East End family. I've seen it for myself.
A-W's part of Scotland has its own problems, but Peterhead is not Peckham. Fraserborough is not Plaistow. They are worlds apart.
A-W, please try and understand, although the things FP is referring to may not be as evident in Grampian, for a number of the inner cities these problems are very real. The political ineptitude at council and borough level, along with the complete lack of direction from Westminster have compounded the problems to the point that a significant number of the South and East London boroughs plus cities like Stoke On Trent, Blackburn, Burnley and others are potentially presenting the far right with political opportunities that they couldnt have dreamed of twenty years ago.
Call it racism, call it xenophobia, call it what you will, all those things are lurking below the surface. But they are there and they will continue to feed until the majority do something about it; Encourage greater integration of immigrant communities instead of pandering to the sensibilities of their older generations (providing translators for instance) for one. Not blaming the immigrants or economic migrants for their own lack of employment prospects, for another. Dont you see, although its a different perspective, this is what I was going on about all those weeks ago? Our strength is in each other, regardless of colour or creed or where we live. Be it under a banner of Englishness, Scottishness, Britishness, whatever. There may not be such a thing as society any more, but theres no reason why there shouldnt be community.
Just because we dont talk about something because it might not be pleasant, doesnt make it any less real. Thats what the PLP, with the exception of Blears has been doing for the last 4 years. As a result, the BNP has sneaked in, made hay and now has a legitimate political presence on the Greater London Authority.
Both of you, I'm not having a go, I assure you. Both of you tell me to butt out and mind my own business if you want.
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I was not brought up to be a racist. Our mother always used to say to us "if you see a black person in the street, don't stare" which immediately made us stare of course because she brought our attention to something we would not have contemplated.
She also used to say "if asked what your nationality is say British not English" which immediately brought attention to the fact that there was an issue. Thereafter I saw a huge row unfolding on the subject and people filling in those ethnic monitoring forms now just cross it all out and write "white English", and people saying on tv about foreigners:
"We don't like them and they don't like us".
I feel this is true but it would not have been true had the influx over the years been watched, controlled and allowed for the better and not for the worse.
Can you honestly tell me that these people are happy being ostracised, stared at, called names and the brunt of all the issues brought up?
The lot that came over in the sixties are by now integrated and their children mostly successfully educated and in professions and jobs.
They ran the gauntlet as this present lot are. The difference is that THIS time there are millions and millions of them - a total recipe for disaster and it is said everywhere. You have to be an ostrich not to hear it.
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#143 Mark_WE
Look, I fully appreciate there are SOME Scots who are stupidly insensitive of English feelings.
If they are in fact racist in their comments (you did not specify) then I would be scathing towards them, as they DO NOT help the reputation of Scots. i.e. they are idiots.
It is true that in the earlier throngs of nationalism (70s etc) racist venomous views were more prevalent amongst the Scottish population, much like the comments I regularly receive on here - get off our site, scrounging/whinging Scots etc. (but then you are in the first stages of reclaiming your national identity - I do understand, I don't hate).
But we see that as a part of history of which we are NOT proud, and not representative of the present. I can assure you anyone coming out with such statements in Scotland would be quickly shunned (looked down apon, rightly, as ignorant) and disassociated with.
I had hoped we'd moved on, not least after my discussions with Fubar, but hey, maybe I am just too damn optimistic :-(
Let me make a distinction though. The joshing between neighbours as friends over such things as football rivalry, should not be put in the same category as flamepatricia's pure brand of racism. She doesn't know me. I am female for a start.
No, these wind ups are just that. And can I mention, we (Scots) like you if we are needling you. You are expected to come straight back. You will no doubt be getting ribbed a bit over your hassle with the snow, but can I suggest that, once it's all over, tempers will be calmed and everyone will see a little biit of a jibe for what it was.
I know how much hassle the snow can cause, I live in the north east of Scotland. :-)
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#157
Look yellowbelly stop mouthing off about thing's you dont understand about.
Final salary pension scheme's in many of the
refinery companies are non- contributary.
I suggest to look into last years dispute at the Grangemouth refinery.
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derekbarker wrote:
#137
Hey! fubar, Come On! tell it like it was.
The 1984 miners strike was initiated by the thatcher government, thatcher pre planned
the closure of the pit's before she even took office, FACT'
Know fubar, if this dipute is settled in favour of the said company, ever worker in Britain can say goodbye to 90 day notice of a change to their terms and condition's, the vast majority of British worker's will most probably lose out on their final salary pension scheme, and a low wage economy will engulf these isle's.
Would you be happy to revert back to slave labour.
The sun is a giant orange FACT.
See, just writing the word FACT doesn't make it a fact!
If you had said that Thatcher wanted to break the power of the Unions then that probably would be correct - but why would she want to pre-plan the closure of the pits (many of which were profitable before they flooded as a result of the strike!)
The Union basically forced the government's hand with an unrealistic demand (pits could only closed if they ran out of coal - so a pit couldn't be closed for economical reasons i.e. when it cost more to get the coal then it was actually worth)
So the Union and the Government played their game of chicken with the Union expecting the government to blink first (it didn't).
The vast majority of British workers DON'T actually get a final salary scheme - so how can they lose it? Many of the companies that do run them are trying to shut them down because they are too expensive to run and threaten the company's existence.
If the Unions lose this fight it won't mean a return to slave labour - but it might mean that the Unions have to look at cutting some of their requirements when it comes to contract negotiations. We are talking about a company from Europe that is doing the undercutting not some sweatshop.
Perhaps workers should move away from the old style trade unions with their blind support of New Labour and look at new trade unions that are more concerned about the rights of the workers.
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There are very valid points from both sides, but we are in recession and no one knows how long it will last and how many people will be unemployed these experts are only guessing like the average person on the street. I think it is grossly unfair to tar British workers with this not as educated, not as hard working, not as skilled as other EU nationals especially the not having the same work ethic, these people are completely wrong, there are many millions of British workers who work very hard are very skilled and educated working in all industries and sectors, there is this chav and benefit culture which is becoming an epidemic but, this problem is also evident across the other EU states but only the British get critisied.
I like many more find it amazing that a Company can bring in foreign labour on the same pay and conditions as Bristish labour and put them up in this floating hotel and still be cheaper than an Company employing British labour to do this same job.
# 12 Total may be a French firm, but they are operating in Britain for a reason and it is certainly not just to provide employment or for any other reason to benefit Britain it purly for profit their profit, so how about putting alittle something back into this economy, I am sure you would also feel angered if you were unemployed and skilled to do a job in which 400 foreign nationals were shipped in to do, don't worry most people would be.
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"When the Tories were in power these types of wildcat strikes were decried and maggie brought in laws to prevent them.
Now the Tories Back the strikers who apparently were the tories enemy, being trade unionists."
Good old grand, comparing apples to oranges again.
Can't you just admit that your precious prime minister is guilty of holding decent hard working people, both working class and middle class, in complete and utter contempt and these protests reflect that fact and the fact that these workers can be sold down the river based on rules and laws that NONE OF US have had any opportunity to vote on at all?
Having a Labour foreign foreign minister appointed by an unelected PM go to represent Labour Party elitists in an unelected Council of Ministers to pass laws nobody (bar the Irish) gets a say on, and when the Irish got a say, do they were condemned and told to keep trying until the EU elite get the answer THEY want. That is NOT a model of democracy with ANY legitimacy whatsoever. Those vile terrorists in Hamas have more democratic legitimacy than that.
This protest is the ONLY voice they have. The government are not listening to them, the labour party are not listening to them, the Unions are not listening to them. There is no-one else with any power to help them at all in changing a situation whereby good, decent, hard working, skilled workers can be tossed aside for being British.
Grand, the founders of the labour movement will be spinning in their graves, and it shows how far to the extreme right, towards outright fascism, labour have drifted that the Tories (excluding Cameron of course) have been more sympathetic to these workers than Brown or his acolytes.
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#147
Totally agree,
You forgot the blouse-wearing bit though!
Now....... must remember to get my extra thumb grafted on before I head back home 'Up North'
:-)
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161.fubar
I agree with 99% of your post.
I am in North West London:
Wembley, Harrow, Edgware, Kenton, Queensbury, Kingsbury, Hatch End, Pinner,
to name some of the places around me.
It is scary and frightening. It is in itself a foreign country within our own.
Don't anybody berate me for telling the truth - just come here and see - but don't go out at night in case you get mugged or knifed. Thanks Labour.
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#161 Fubar_Saunders
Fubar, man, I have TV... :-(
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141. At 1:30pm on 03 Feb 2009, flamepatricia wrote: "However, MOST of the above IS DUE to millions of people invading us just like the Germans wanted to in the two world wars. This time though Brown et al have encouraged it or turned a blind eye and it is one huge unmitigated disaster."
Undoubtedly you are right, but that is not the real issue at stake in this thread, which is the perfidy of Gordon Brown and his approach to politics. Yes, the country has been overrun, with the explicit encouragement of the bunch of traitors pretending to be our Government and there are incalculable social, environmental and cultural costs associated with this all too rapid and extensive immigration.
But let's focus on the lying knave who used the phrase "British Jobs for British Workers" in his Conference speech - he needs to be booted out of what passes for office in short order!
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"So the quarrel is with employers, not workers from other EU countries."
That is also what I have been saying, Yellow. The BBC and the labour party would love to spin this serious and discriminatory treatment of British workers in racist language to make the strikers look like "little Britishers" (as others on this blog have incorrectly tried to do), but this protest is a protest AGAINST discrimination, NOT in favour of it!
You would think that would be right up labour's politically correct alley. Working class people being actively discriminated against? You would think that this was typical dog-whistle labour territory.
Sorry, Political correctness and "diversity" does not apply to indigenous peoples does it?
Labour has ceased to represent the working classes, has never represented the middle classes and is the exclusive servant of the global elitists.
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Aye Wright I apologise for calling you a man, I didn't realise and obviously the sporran doesn't apply!
I am NOT talking about Scotland. I have never been to Scotland and am possibly not likely to in the foreseeable future.
That is not what I am talking about although there may well be an issue and it does crop up. I don't like so many in government but I am not alone. There needs to be a balance.
Balance in all things in life, that is what I am on about.
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#156. dutchmickey
If british people sit idle then as a taxpayer I get to pick up the bill...
Importing labour while locals are idle (or expecting the locals to go abroad for work) generates 'labour miles' and makes no sense to anyone.
At the very least it is the sign of a broken system.
Were the italians/portugese recruited to be internationally mobile workers? Or were they surprised to be relocated?
If the former, they why was recruitment limited to italian/portugese ? If the latter, then it may be their rights are being compromised, not protected ?
There is no outcome that makes this situation look good.
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FP: You may not have been brought up to be a racist, but your recent postings seem to suggest your upbringing failed. No one likes being called names and being stared at, especially by children and adults who should have better manners. Attitudes like yours should have been left in the 1970s where they were still just about acceptable.
I am a white Englishman, I can trace my lineage back 5 generations and during that time the only non-English was an Irish redhead. Yet despite that I look Mediterranean at best, mixed race more likely. In my youth I suffered racist idiots shouting abuse, thankfully this has diminished and most people are polite enough not to ask where my Father came from (Essex). So I get the anger about racism and the stupidity of “them and us”, even though I’m technically white. Truth be told any non-white blood running through my veins comes from the 1700s when the first “lot” came over. In the late 1700s there were as many black people living in Britain as there were in the 1960s, a surprising number of “good” white British have a little colour lucking somewhere in the closet, I am just lucky enough to show it.
The “millions of invading immigrants” is by and large a load of hogwash, within Europe Britain by number and percentage of population is not at the top, or even that near. Many of the countries in Europe have issues with immigration but it seems only the British try and make a virtue out of it.
Is the only country that actively welcomed German Jews before WWII meant to be proud of becoming closed minded xenophobes? Is that what our forefathers died for?
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Today appears to be a quiet day for politics....and this forum seems to have been overtaken by accusations and counter accusations of racism? Could've sworn it was about wild-cat strikes. That'll teach me to work for the last 4 or 5 hours....
As for this anti-johnny-foreigner stuff...I'm quite proud of my blue blooded Celtic-Romano-British-Anglo-Saxon-Viking-Norman-French-Dutch-German ancestry.
I suggest we learn to live with it or leave the EU and set up a trading block with Greenland.
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Oh by the way....
If you think things are bad now, in "Disgusted British Construction Worker Land".....
You wait till EDF of France turn up to build the new generation of nuclear power stations.
Do you think they'll use local labour from the UK?
Care to bet your mortgage (if you can get one) on it?
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165. At 2:25pm on 03 Feb 2009, derekbarker wrote:
#157
Look yellowbelly stop mouthing off about thing's you dont understand about.
Final salary pension scheme's in many of the
refinery companies are non- contributary.
I suggest to look into last years dispute at the Grangemouth refinery.
===
derek, thanks for this. How do the schemes continue to payout benefits, does the pensions fairy come down at night and leave brown envelopes under people's pillows?
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Freelance people have already been here.
For example, about ten years ago, a freelance IT database designer could make a good living, charging around £80 per hour.
Then suddenly a large number of Indian database designers came here to England, flooding the market and the rate of pay literally dropped by an order of magnitude to around £8 per hour.
Indigenous database designers were in a very difficult position, but fortunately, were professionally represented (by a Brum born Sikh in the Professional Contractors Group) and persuaded the Government to set a quota on the number of 'foreign' database designers who could come here to England in any given year, which ultimately caused the rates of pay to drift up to more realistic levels.
In the round, this 'movement of labour' is a very complex issue but broadly speaking, within the EU, workers should be able to work freely.
That is, just as in the USA, a Floridian can move to California to find work, then, in principle an English person should be able to move to Italy to find work or vice versa.
The EU itself needs to concentrate harder on the aspects of harmonisation, especially in terms of labour costs, that can facilitate this.
Ultimately it is your flexability, skills, local community, networking abilities and that randomness that is often called 'luck' that determines the shape of your life.
Good luck.
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derek
I did a google search on Grangemouth Oil refinery and this is what I found:
"Employees at the Grangemouth oil refinery went on strike in a bid to preserve a form of pension which remains the norm in the public sector, but which is being phased out in the private sector.
Donald Duval, chief actuary at Aon, told The Telegraph that the dispute demonstrates that the trend away from final salary or defined benefit pensions, toward money purchase or defined contribution schemes, will eventually affect most people.
Up to 1,200 employees at the oil refinery near Falkirk are fighting changes to existing employees' pensions, and the closure of the final salary scheme to new members, even though their scheme is in surplus, with assets of £249m backing liabilities of £225m.
It is the latest twist in the decline of Britain's private pension regime, which has nigh on collapsed following Gordon Brown's £5bn annual tax raid began in 1997, combined with tighter accounting rules, and increased longevity.
Four out of five companies have closed their final salary schemes to new members, reducing to fewer than one million employees those covered by such arrangements. Recent closures to new members include Unilever, while BAA is negotiating similar plans. But the latest moves affect existing employees, increasing numbers of whom are watching their pension security disintegrate.
At the beginning of the month, Royal Mail stopped future final salary benefits accruing for existing employees, following a similar move by Siemens at the beginning of the year. Rentokil, WH Smith, Debenhams and the Co-op have already closed final salary arrangements for current staff.
If this trend continues, riskfree pensions will soon be the exclusive domain of public-sector workers, who have already accrued benefits which will cost taxpayers a total of more than £1 trillion to honour in the decades ahead."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/2789065/Pensions-Grangemouth-oil-strike-spills-over-for-us-all.html
===
It seems to back up what I was saying about Brown having destroyed Final Salary pension schemes.
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Dolly Barker 90 percent of private sector final salary schemes have been closed post Gordon Brown axing the dividend tax credit.
He was warned about the likely effects and did nothing.
Instead he created an enormous unfunded liablity in public sector final salary schemes.
Another Gordon Brown Ponzi scheme waiting to collapse.
The more you shrill about 'facts' the more evident the many flaws in our arguments.
Newlabour and Gordon Brown have failed to deliver the social contract they took out when elected; to end boom and bust, to end child povery, to proovide british jobs for British workers, to give us a referendum on the EU constitution, to improve education stanards.
Newlabour and Gordon Brown are a busted flush with nowhere to hide and this latest outbreak of industrial activity is the electoorate realising it has no option but to resort to civil disobedience as Gordon Bron refuses to;
Call an election.
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DavidRMurrell 82
Seems I got took off twice for using the same word as you, so I will have to find a different way of saying it.
I like you, fear any kind of backlash from people towards the foreigners in this country, but I actually, as I have said do not think this strike is about that.
However I do think that WW2 does have some relevance. Not long ago I was reading a book on WW2 and the Russian Revolution. Before these two events the actual population did not want a radical change of Government it was just that the Governments were not listening to the people and the economy of each country was desperate to say the least. Of caurse what came out of it was much worse than that which they had started with, but in each case the population had latched onto leaders they thought would bring change. These leaders were able to capitalize on discontent within the structure of the people. Now I am not suggesting for a minute that we are at this stage, however there are similarities. There is no doubt in my mind that the BNP is gaining ground, all they lack is a charismatic leader. Our Government should have recognised the problems and changed course long ago.
It is Governments job to listen to its peoples discontent justified or not, It is Governments job not to erode our freedoms which we have enjoyed for so long. Both Blair and Brown have used their power to drag us into wars without the will of the people and we are bordering on a police state.
This strike is the only means by which the working man can express his discontent, and I feel that this is what it is really about. If recession turns into depression then things could turn very nasty.
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I can feel a lesson how to fly the flag in the course about Britishness coming on and of course there will soon be a few hundred job openings for flag controllers at at least 35k with full defined benefit pensions. Hurrey, a new reason to grow the public sector, which includes the Brown (or Balls) Broadcasting Corporation by the way (the reference to Balls is due to the fact that Mandy seems to groom him as new labour leader according a Guardian blog).
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#166
Mark-WE wrote
"If you had said that Thatcher wanted to break the power of the Unions then that probably would be correct - but why would she want to pre-plan the closure of the pits (many of which were profitable before they flooded as a result of the strike!)
The Union basically forced the government's hand with an unrealistic demand (pits could only closed if they ran out of coal - so a pit couldn't be closed for economical reasons i.e. when it cost more to get the coal then it was actually worth)
So the Union and the Government played their game of chicken with the Union expecting the government to blink first (it didn't).
The vast majority of British workers DON'T actually get a final salary scheme - so how can they lose it? Many of the companies that do run them are trying to shut them down because they are too expensive to run and threaten the company's existence.
If the Unions lose this fight it won't mean a return to slave labour - but it might mean that the Unions have to look at cutting some of their requirements when it comes to contract negotiations. We are talking about a company from Europe that is doing the undercutting not some sweatshop.
Perhaps workers should move away from the old style trade unions with their blind support of New Labour and look at new trade unions that are more concerned about the rights of the workers"
Where do you people come from, of course thatcher wanted to close the mines and the fact is she did so!
Look final salary pension schemes are closed to the vast majority of new employees, the private sector again have shown how irresponsible they are in peoples account's, however there are firms where the trade unions stood up to the proposed closure of their final salary schemes.
Christ kid! the thatcher government spent more money on importing coal and electricity, than what it would have spent on the NCB operation's and dont forget the thatcher goverment imported coal from Columbia, where children as young as 10 years old are used to extract that coal.
Clowns like you are eradicating the history of the trade union movement,lost in your fluffy world of nonsense with no respect for you forefathers and what they endured to advance the workers cause.
Go and look into france and how they set tenders in there local communities, Come back and tell me that the french would accept a firm based in france telling their local people that they are not good enough for employment.
Go and look if you can at the proposed private total tender and come and tell me the defining difference in the tender in comparison with the British work-force?
I've no idea who you are or what stupid point you are trying to make but if you think a progressive Britain is about a future where no one has a final pension, is progressive and a raise in the standard of living then think on Mark.
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Fubar_Saunders 142
On the subject of workers strikes.
How can I put it in the context of the subject, you are barking up the wrong tree here, you do not know what really happened. Flamepatricia was not to blame.
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Ford and Vauxhall have both said their UK car prices are going up, despite falling sales and news of government measures to support the sector.
They both blame the weakness of the pound - much of their manufacturing is carried out in the eurozone, so sales in pounds are worth less to them.
Ford is putting up the prices across its range by an average of 4.7%.
Vauxhall is increasing the prices of all models except the Vectra and VXR8 by an average of just under 5%.
"We have to increase our prices," said Vauxhall spokesman Simon Hucknall.
"It is essential - it is not desirable, but it is essential."
Ford said the weakness of the pound had put it under "severe economic pressures".
===
Nice to see that the competitiveness of the pound and the car bail-out are obviously working!
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I can seriously recommend Gaskell's North and South in the context of these strikes. Great book that deals with capitalism, unions, poverty and of course L-O-V-E.
One of the best books I've ever read (I've read less books than there are letters in the alfabet, the russian one that is, i'm not that illiterate).
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What is entirely predictable is that in times of difficulty ignorant mobs will blame outsiders rather than getting off their own backsides and making the best of it. Whether it's Italians, Poles, or Jews, it's always happened and probably always will happen as long as people are ignorant and know nothing about history.
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"Where do you people come from, of course thatcher wanted to close the mines and the fact is she did so!"
She wanted to close the "unprofitable" mines of which there were many. Profitable ones would remain open.
I know a lorry driver that used to deliver pit-props to a coal mine, that had no coal left in it. Not "unprofitable coal", but NO coal AT ALL!
The pit props piled up outside as the men would go to work everyday and play cards in the canteen.
That was before the strike. After the strike the pit was closed.
As an aside, more miners have lost their jobs over the last 100 years during labour administrations than tory.
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#161 Fubar_Saunders
Humph.
I've mustered the enthusiasm to be decent enough to reply.
I am not automatically ignorant because I stay in a remote location(even though a great many round me may well be!). Your information re problems with immigration are not a revelation.
Neither are they in ANY way an excuse for racism. Remember (or maybe you didn't know) many Polish immigrants "swamped" Peterhead recently.
My Mum is PT (Principal Teacher) of Guidance (em, helps pupils choose their subjects and helps with any social or other issues relating to the child at school, well those in her 'house' - you get) at Peterhead Academy and I understand the problems with language, just for starters. So I am able to 'get into fp's head' over this issue - with respect it's not hard.
I understand it's not easy for her and others BUT it does NOT excuse her racism. That old, "Well, it's true!" line has been used many times and is as such a sham.
Please Fubar, do not seek to compare me to fp, unless you are intending to insult :-(
I agree with your point about the need for the restoration of the fabric of society. We have covered how I see constitutional change as being pivotal to that. If you still think I am so "dumb", maybe it's time for me to give up.
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#191 Derek Barker wrote:
I've no idea who you are or what stupid point you are trying to make but if you think a progressive Britain is about a future where no one has a final pension, is progressive and a raise in the standard of living then think on Mark.
My comment:
Not sure what you are exactly trying to say, though I might make a guess at the emotion. I too would like everyone to have a final salary scheme. I don't have one myself; it's a money purchase scheme and crashed with the FTSE under Gordon's mismanagement.
11 years of your beloved Labour Government has destroyed final salary pension funds in the private sector. Hence the warnings about pension apartheid in the UK.
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Oh for heavens sake Mods this is getting ridiculous.
What do I have to say?
"Derek Barker is the font of all knowledge and I shall prostrate myself at the feet of the dear Leader??"
Are you telling me that what I posted was off topic? Or that broadbrush heading "otherwise objectionable"?
The level of banter between certain contributors on this blog has been well known for some considerable time. And, as has been described by at least one of the parties "no quarter asked, no quarter given."
Its a political blog and sometimes the temperature rises a little. What are you afraid of? Sedition??
The afternoon Mods shift appears to have had a serious sense of humour failure at BBC Towers. Do the moderators belong to the outsourcing provider or to the BBC?
Whassup? Did you have to walk through the snow to Wood Lane?
Good grief....
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This on-topic, post DOES obey the rules.
This workers protest is NOT racist, in fact it is the opposite. But in reference to flamepatricia's comments and other's on racism, I would say the following.
I was raised in a small entirely white populated town in the industrial north west. As a small boy in the 1970's, racism was actively encouraged. We never ever saw anyone of colour when I was a small child and I was raised by my peer-group (although NOT my family) to be intensely racist. It was the norm and I knew no different.
By way of explanation of how racist I was, and the events that stopped me being racist and changed my life, I shall state the following.
(please moderators, this is an example of what is WRONG with racism, allow this to be published)
In fact it took a visit to a community recording studio in Brixton, London in 1987 for my blinkers to be removed. I was totally ignorant. The studious were located under a block of flats. We arrived at the studio's in the late evening for an evening session and it was already dark. The studio doors were locked and we waited for the owner of the studio to arrive.
Out of some shadows came two black men and they headed towards us. I have never been more frightened in my life. I thought they were going to stab me and skin me alive and put my finger-bones through their noses. Honestly, that is how ignorant I was back then.
They were session musicians and they were the first black people I had ever met. To my astonishment at the time, they were normal human beings. Beyond that they were really nice, funny, friendly, honest, intelligent, skillfull, hard-working and everything that I had believed that black people were not. Needless to say, I had a major case of cognitive dissonance that day. ALL my precious beliefs changed. In fact my entire identity changed that day.
I went away and deeply examined what I believed, how I had come to believe what I did and what I should believe in future. This MASSIVE shock to my identity woke me up.
I decided there and then that I would not only never be racist again, but to try not to be discriminatory against anyone for anything they could help. Socialism was fair game, but gender, race etc should NEVER EVER be the basis of discrimination. (apart from naturally eg, a man could never be a wet-nurse).
Since then I have fought against all discrimination. I support people who value their communities and their cultures so long as that respect does NOT impinge on anyone else's culture.
That is why, I actually hate political correctness. It is inversely racist and discriminatory. I respect other people's cultures, which is why I believe so much of what we have been doing in Iraq and elsewhere is so wrong, but by the same token, Labour's continuous attack on traditional British culture is wrong too. The uncontrolled immigration does not allow OUR culture to absorb or make allowance for other's cultures in a meaningful way that respects EACH culture. Whenever there has been a clash of cultures, the labour party make things worse by endorsing the foreign culture at the expense of our own. That is why British women of Asian decent in Islamic communities are being beaten and we can do nothing about it. Children are beaten and we can do nothing about it. It's their culture don't you know, it would be racist to stop it.... NO it would be HUMAN to stop it and we are ALL human before we are anything else!
This massive change in MY attitudes and beliefs has been very important to me. Knowing how vile and intolerant I was, compared to now, I have made a great difference in other people's lives and encouraged many many many other people to abandon racism too.
This is why I am afraid today.
I am discovering more and more tolerant people who are having their tolerance tested to the limit by our government's policies. I fear a massive racist backlash and labour are doing NOTHING to prevent it, in fact they are feeding it.
It may be a Hegelian dialectic at work, create race-wars in the UK and then declare a state of emergency and cancel elections under the Civil Contingencies Act? I don't know, but it IS brewing and Labour should listen to the British people (of all colours and creeds) for once. Before it is too late.
The current workers protests may become hijacked by the far right, and that would be a travesty. I actually agree with the socialist workers party in this regard.
I sincerely hope that these worker's protests are not hijacked and turned into a race issue against foreign workers instead of the issue of preventing racism against British workers.
There is a huge amount of pent-up frustration at the Government, and an issue like Gordon's stupid British jobs for British worker's slogan (copied from the BNP) is just the kind of thing that could ignite this powder-keg.
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194#
Susan, I hear what you're saying, I'm trying to placate both sides and yes, there is the very real possibility that the tree that I am barking at is indeed the wrong one, I accept that. There was just no need for it to start to descend into open warfare thats all :-)
But as I've always said, I welcome brickbats and bouquets in equal measure.
Hope you get to read this as whoever is sitting in the moderators chair in Wood Lane has got the hump and is systematically going through this thread like you- know-what through a goose, slashing and burning anything he/she finds "otherwise objectionable". Phooey. :-(
(sound of verrrrrrry long raspberry blown at moderator)
Unless its one of Derek's mates, rushing to his aid. I see he hasnt been mod'd just yet... :-)
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middleenglandtim 178
I too wish we could stay on topic, about workers strikes, but somehow it always ends up with the same old subject. I am going to give up soon.
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136 F-P
"All I can say is HITLER was in favour of globalisation, BROWN is in favour of globalisation......."
Pat, that's not very sound logic if you don't mind me saying as you are implying Brown is another Hitler because they have one trait in common.
You might as well say the Yorkshire Ripper is a man, Brown is a man, therefore Brown is a serial killer.
Or Mussolini liked spaghetti. I like spaghetti, therefore I'm likely to invade Abyssinia.
As it happens, I have considered invading Abyssinia, so maybe you have a point..
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Where do you people come from, of course thatcher wanted to close the mines and the fact is she did so!
Well I come from the real world not some fantasy world created from Labour spin!
Thatcher would not have wanted to close down profitable mines - for the simple reason that they make a profit (which means that the mines make money).
The Union went on strike on a flawed economic premise - that pits should only be closed down when they were exhausted. Which would have meant that a mine would be kept open even if the cost to mine the coal was more then the coal was worth - this would be an unprofitable mine (which means that the mine loses money)
Look final salary pension schemes are closed to the vast majority of new employees, the private sector again have shown how irresponsible they are in peoples account's, however there are firms where the trade unions stood up to the proposed closure of their final salary schemes.
Most people work for companies that don't have final salary pension schemes, most companies that do have them are closing them to new employees. The companies which are not closing them to new employees are finding it harder to compete and lose out to companies that can do the work cheaper.
Big Corp Plc. puts a contract out to tender but they don't care if the company that bids has a final salary scheme for their workers or not - they only care about the price the company charge.
Christ kid! the thatcher government spent more money on importing coal and electricity, than what it would have spent on the NCB operation's and dont forget the thatcher goverment imported coal from Columbia, where children as young as 10 years old are used to extract that coal.
That is probably true - but if the Thatcher government had lost the battle then who knows what the price of coal would be now? If the Unions had won then they could hold the country to ransom again and again
Clowns like you are eradicating the history of the trade union movement,lost in your fluffy world of nonsense with no respect for you forefathers and what they endured to advance the workers cause.
The trade unions are destroying themselves - historically it was about getting a fairer deal for the workers when the bosses had all the power. However if the demands of the Unions get too high then the companys will just go elsewhere and hire cheaper workers. When that happens the Union leaders are no longer looking out for the workers but themselves.
Go and look into france and how they set tenders in there local communities, Come back and tell me that the french would accept a firm based in france telling their local people that they are not good enough for employment.
If the French can get away with it under European law then well done them! Perhaps it is because the French government cares more about it's workers? Gordon Brown is all about the Global economy - and while he might have made his comment about "British jobs for British workers" he isn't standing up for it in the same way that the French would. Of course the Unions will still give their money to Labour anyway!
Go and look if you can at the proposed private total tender and come and tell me the defining difference in the tender in comparison with the British work-force?
Tenders tend to be kept private - although I expect if the Italian bid WAS higher then an equivalent bid by a UK (or other nationality company) the shareholders would want to know why.
I've no idea who you are or what stupid point you are trying to make but if you think a progressive Britain is about a future where no one has a final pension, is progressive and a raise in the standard of living then think on Mark.
Oddly enough having a final salary pension is not actually a sign of a progressive country. In fact many people who DID have a final salary pension are now suffering because the company they had it with have gone bust and in the future companies which have them will be less competitive and will suffer as a result.
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Many posts failing the pc hurdle. It seems the blog is now moderated by the same guy/girl who fired that Thatcher daughter - those BBC employees with any hint of conservative political persuasion about them should be on defcon 3 red alert and try to be very pc.
For those who are not really depressed (yet) I can suggest Willem Buiter's Maverecon blog, which you can access through the FT site. Mr Buiter warns about protectionism and highlights the double talking by Brown about financial protectionism and Brown ordering UK banks to lend to UK enterprises (the follow-on from that policy I guess will be that we will be ordered to buy all that unsold inventory that will be financed by the additional lending/borrowing). Mr Brown still does not comprehend that it would be entirely logic in this stage of the cycle to lower lending / borrowing volumes, even if banks weren't crunched.
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206 a-w
looks like you got there before me (208) with a terribly offensive comment
171 Flame.
So all those areas of NW London you mention were lovely pre-1997?
Also, I notice you blame GB for being 'in favour of Globalisation' in a previous post.
What about the invention of the wheel, the internal combustion engine, the silicon chip, and the internet, to name but a few? Surely he's to blame for all of those things too? Don't give him such an easy ride.
All mainstream political parties in the UK are in favour of the free movement of capital, and labour (at least within the EU). At the moment.
The UK political party most in favour of these 'freedoms', and globalisation, by the way, is, guess which one?
Clue: it is the UK political party funded by the senior directors and shareholders of UK-based multinationals and their City middlemen.
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#214 Fubar_Saunders
My last commemt was moderated but it was along the lines of...
I can see there is nowhere left for your arguments to go, as they have fast headed in the opposite direction from mine. :-(
I hope you achieve your goal of being friends with eveyone on here. Regretfully though it's time to end our discussions.
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Susan-Croft 215
I know, I know! I have no idea quite how a bunch of blokes with a grievance in Lincolnshire has led to all this racism rubbish when the guys on strike themselves constantly keep saying they have no problem with the Italians & Portuguese.
What they do have a problem with is the 'perception' that because a European firm has been awarded a sub-contract and brought their own permanent staff with them to fulfil that contract....that they are being hard done by. This perception is not down to law, UK or EU, but the ill thought through, populist, non-sensical soundbite 'British jobs for British workers' spouted by Gordon Brown.
Before you know it, he'll say something even more ridiculous like ' we are best placed to ride out the downturn'.....
Maybe the BeeB should open a section on 'Have your Say' entitled 'Rant-a-Blog' for some of our compadres on here ...
I'm with you...I'm outta here
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#223 MunichMadrid7980
"206 a-w
looks like you got there before me (208) with a terribly offensive comment"
Sorry, I'm a bit lost (been lamenting my exchanges with Fubar), what comment on what? #208 was yours...?
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Right final one from me (if it gets through) not because I am fed up with anyone other than the Mods (which means this won’t get through – but at least they’ll get to read it).
Points:
1) Brown was foolish to make a quote the BNP would have been proud of.
2) Total was foolish to not have thought this matter through further
3) People (not just on this board) are being foolish making one isolated matter into something bigger.
4) This dispute, whether intentionally is being high jacked by nationalists
5) This dispute is being driven by the media and is likely to develop into something much nastier
6) Globalisation is not all good, nor is it all bad. It seems to me to be a little ironic to criticise it after reaping the benefits, let alone equate it to facism.
7) The EU is not all good, but leaving it after all these decades will cripple us. We cannot become Switzerland and trade with the EU on our own merits, because a we don’t have the links the Swiss do and b the EU will probably not want to trade with someone who turns their back on them.
Hopefully most people will see some valid points, but regrettable that no one will get to see as the Mods will probably decide that two lines have either strayed to far from the subject or broken some other rule to prevent criticism.
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A whole series of postings from regular contributors have been rejected by the moderators this afternoon. We all have a track record of making moderate, non-abusive comments, even if, or especially if, we don't agree with one another.
I support removing abusive contributions to this blog but, like the Speaker of the House of Commons, we should have a wide remit to post moderate contributions, even if they are not entirely on-topic. Politics does not belong in a box, nor is it the preserve of the rich, the famous, or the BBC.
Once the moderators allow one off-topic posting through (normally supporting Labour, of course) then the moderators should allow a right of reply.
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#220
Mark wrote
"Tenders tend to be kept private - although I expect if the Italian bid WAS higher then an equivalent bid by a UK (or other nationality company) the shareholders would want to know why."
Mark the uk didn't even get an opportunity to make a bid?
Mark worte
"Oddly enough having a final salary pension is not actually a sign of a progressive country. In fact many people who DID have a final salary pension are now suffering because the company they had it with have gone bust and in the future companies which have them will be less competitive and will suffer as a result."
Mark so pensioners on the state pension only is a progressive move? read what you reap!
Mark worte
"Thatcher would not have wanted to close down profitable mines - for the simple reason that they make a profit (which means that the mines make money)."
Mark thatcher closed the mines, it's a fact!
o' the not for profit NCB was publically owned, another reason thatcher wanted to close them and tell me Mark just how has capitalism and privatisation improved Britain lot?
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No169 purple
You may like to note that we do not elect Prime Ministers in the UK, and the unelected Council of Ministers that you refer to is the supreme policy making body within the EU, it is, in the main, comprised of senior elected politicians from the individual member states.
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#211 PurpleDogzzz
Your post eloquently sums up my own position. For too long any attempts to stand up for the traditional British culture has been dismissed as racism the fallout of which has helped the rise of extremists such as the BNP.
Dennis McShane was on Radio 5Live last night and made a reasonable (albeit, in my opinion, flawed) defence of Gordon Brown and yet ruined his contribution by claiming that William Haugue consistently made xenophobic jokes in the Commons. Playing to stereotypes yes, but xenophobic?
This is exactly the kind of over the top comment that belittles the full debate we should all be having regarding all aspects of immigration and the consequences of EU legislation.
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I think that strikers only course of action left is to complain to the government regarding heavy-handed moderation. Possibly.
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223#
Munich:
Re: all three of the mainstream parties being in favour of free movement of capital and labour within the EU... yes, they would be, Europe is our most important trading partner.....
So your point is what, exactly...?
Oh I seeeeee........ An attempted side swipe at the Conservatives.
You dont think that City & Mayfair Hedge funds and other big earners in the square mile havent contributed to New Labours coffers? Declared or otherwise, resulting in rapped knuckles for the (dis)honourable members concerned? Not to mention the dodgy peers??
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@munichmadrid
Watch out using that sacred year for Labour spin docters as benchmark - this recession will most likely be nastier than all the dips since the 1930s.
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29 posts removed by the moderators since 1.55 p.m. out of 77 posts.
I am guessing someone is a bit miffed about having to come in to work this afternoon?!!
Whatever happened to free speech, BBC, don't forget you are a PUBLIC SERVICE broadcaster, and we pay your wages.
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229 DM
On the Money!
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No 136 said: "All I can say is HITLER was in favour of globalisation, BROWN is in favour of globalisation.......
Ladies and gentlemen of the Jury I rest my case."
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I fear, dear lady, that your case is weak.
Hitler was in favour of globalisation in so far as it went, but that was as far as a belief that Germany should rule the globe. As far as economics goes, he was protectionist.
For example, he built giant synthetic fuel plants in Germany and brought Hungary and Romiania into Germany's orbit to reduce dependence on imported oil from the Western democracies. Moreover, his invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941 was largely an attempt to gain control over the hydrocarbon resources of the Soviet Union.
Indeed, aside from the obvious idealogical differences with the Soviet Union, Hitler's invasion was largely to gain control over all of the mineral and agricultural resources of the Soviet Union - oil from the Caucusus, grain from Ukraine.
Furthermore, Hitler hated the concept of global capitalism, which he believed was under the control of Jewish bankers in London and Wall Street. Indeed, part of the insanity of Hitler's ideology was that the Jews were blamed both for communism (Jewish Bolsheviks) and capitalism (Jewish bankers).
In saying all that, Gordon Brown is a golem running amok and will lead the Labour Party to perdition, if not outright destruction.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This argument I think goes right down to the heart of the matter. When the EU legislation was introduced to give free movement for foreign workers, many countries across the EU decided on limits to try and give some degree of protection to it's homegrown labor markets. Despite many warnings, this government insisted on doing things its own way, and now we find ourselves in this mess. Gordon Brown should apologize to the British people for his very ill thought statement, especially when its very clear that he nor his sidekick will do anything about this. How can any government lecture anyone about tough times ahead, amongst other things, yet show no respect to British workers, on their own soil. I would ask, could someone please tell me what the purpose of this lot in power. Can they not see that this is a verifiable breeding for the kind of politics that we really do not need to hear? I find it strange that these politicians will stand firm on the far right wing political establishment, and yet by their own actions, policies, and pointless sound bites, that they're actually feeding the flames, so to speak?
The mind boggles!!
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226#
I'm genuinely sorry you feel that way, A-W.
My intention is not to offend anyone if I can at all help it. I cant tell you what to feel though.
May I wish you bon chance and no ill will.
Bye.
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No 232 wrote: "Mark thatcher closed the mines, it's a fact!"
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Well, I'm sure we can blame Mark Thatcher for many things, coups in African countries and so on, but hardly colliery closures.
And remind me who closed the Selby complex?
But, as it goes, the miners led by Scargill fell into Margaret Thatcher's trap - she wanted a trial of strength with the most militant of the trade unions and they obliged, believing Thatcher would turn out to be as weak as Heath, Wilson, et al. They were mistaken and paid a heavy price.
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232 Derek
So now we know [from your final paragraph] why Mark Thatcher had to leave the country and allegedly get involved in desert car rallies, coups etc?
I'm with you on the Total mess. The tendering process for this contract stinks. We'll never find out if a UK company had a genuine chance to win it, looks like it was all sewn up between the US and Italian contractors. As fishy as an MP's expenses claim, or maybe even fishier...
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I personally am glad that Thatcher broke the power of the unions. I do not believe they have served the working man for decades. They now are so closely associated with Labour they have lost their purpose. Labour no longer stands for the working man so what place do unions have.
I remember my father telling me how much he was restricted in learning new parts of his job by the union in case the managers thought one man could do the job of two. Also some of the workers used to be able to finish their jobs in a couple of hours and sleep the rest of the day if they wanted to. How you could not get a job at certain places because you had to be a relation of someone who worked there to get your union card. At the drop of a hat it would be everyone going on strike for petty things. No I do not want to see these things happen again.
Now what we need now is proper apprenticeships in the areas which are needed and a move away from everyone must go to University whether your suited to it or not. Degrees in silly subjects are not going to guarantee work. We need to get our people working instead of being on benefits. Then perhaps this resentment towards foreigners who do the jobs our people are too lazy to do will stop. The Public Sector has to be slimmed down and made fit for purpose. We need to improve our skills and take education back to basics. All this will take a long time to change, but change it must.
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#228 Munich (trying again - this is getting silly! ;-)
Had a look back,
My #206 was referring to the tone and implicit content of Susan_Croft's #194, which I objected to. :-)
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Mandy tells us it's legal ~ which entirely misses the point.
The question is "Is it right ?"
Is it right that we can make people redundant in the UK because their jobs can be done cheaper in India ? ~ No - but it's legal, and happening daily.
Is it right that children should be used as slave labour to undercut skilled workers ? No ~ but it's happening now.
Is it right that companies can employ contractors AT THEIR HOME COUNTRY'S rates, to work in this country ? ~ No it isn't but it's been happening more and more as the EU expands.
Is it right that an unelected Prime Minister and an unelected Lord should be deciding the future of our country ? No it isn't, but the populace allows it to happen.
Call an election.
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oops, the way I spelled doctors almost gives my nationality away ........
......... but the BBC site deletes quotation marks and apostrophes wheh you copy paste onto it after using the spelling chequer (joke) in wha-evuh softwhere. So i stopped using the copy paste trick since it was no trick.
Talking about tangents ...
... maybe Cameron's new frien can teach me the odd trick about tangents
Off to an appointment now (it's a drinks party, so don't worry - and BBC editors should not worry either since I will not be having my drinks in any green room whaso-evuh! - nice one drinks in the BBC studios all paid for by you guess who - well he's/she's looking at the computer screen)
Hasta la basta for today!
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This country voted for a common market of about five or six European countries becoming trading partners and opening up their markets freely to one another.
This at the time was about making sure that European countries no longer went to war with each other.
A fine concept at the time but look where it has taken us to.
Who had they known would have voted for this huge undemocratic organisation filled with pigs with their noses in the trough and enjoying a huge gravy train of unaccountable expenses.
So much money unwisely allocated they can't even file proper accounts and laws that make asses seem intelligent.
There is the best case ever now it is all falling apart to disband the whole idea and start from scratch.
It was originally enivisaged as and should never have been any more than a trading partnership.
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Well this is indeed a very strange kettle of fish.
Would there still be these protests had Gordon Brown not uttered those now immortal words?
I think so.
Is it just about a subtle manipulation of organised labour by the far right?
Well, it may be that the protests are playing into the BNPs hands, but that's an all too convenient excuse for the Government and an insult to those on the front line. This is about a fundamental betrayal of our domestic workforce and is a protest that has been waiting to happen for some time.
Here we have the consequences of the principle of free movement and the Lisbon treaty laid bare. In addition, New Labour's desertion of its true consituency has come home to roost.
Are foreign companies locating in the UK subject to the same taxation as domestic companies? There have been numerous examples of "inducements" for them in the form of tax holidays, and the recent recipients of the "non bail-out" for the motor industry have been foreign-owned.
Are their foreign workers subject to the same taxes as UK workers? Do they have to pay the same costs of living in the UK as domestic workers?
While Total and Alstom may be acting legally within the EU framework, is it morally acceptable that profits are generated in this country are expatriated and that we as a nation bear the cost of our unemployed?
(The analogy between Union Carbide in Bhopal and Total in Buncefield is a little too stark for comfort).
It was time the Labour party was reclaimed by the Labour movement and threw out all its careerists: let there be clear water between the main parties again.
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DavidRMurrell @229 wrote:
7) The EU is not all good, but leaving it after all these decades will cripple us. We cannot become Switzerland and trade with the EU on our own merits, because a we don?t have the links the Swiss do and b the EU will probably not want to trade with someone who turns their back on them."
Sure we could because
1) The EU really needs our cash - we are, after all, one of the largest nett contributers to the EU coffers; and
2) If the EU chose not to trade with us, to whom would they sell all their BMWs, Mercs, Peugeots, Citroëns, Nokias, Sony-Erriksons, Saabs, Volkswagens, Minis, Bentleys, and a myriad other brands to make up the shortfall? Would they really like us to buy all our goods and services solely from the US, Japan, Korea and China instead?
The EU 'needs' us more than we 'need' the EU. We should remind them of that fact from time to time.
Personally I'm in favour of neutering the EU rather than leaving it. I.e. reverting to a free-trade zone rather than a nascent federal super-state.
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#246 munich
#232 derekbarker
Yes the tendering process does seem very odd. Total sub-contracting to a US firm, which in turn sub contracts to an Italian company. I wonder if this was a ploy to circumvent EU tendering rules/laws?
If so it would indicate that the EU system is less than robust. The other problem is that the EU is desperate to ratify the Lisbon Treaty and I imagine that the last thing they need just now is an admission that they have stuffed up somehow.
Funnily enough a bit of transparency and honesty (and maybe even an apology) by the EU and UK government might actually defuse the whole situation. As it is, certain comments so far are akin to adding petrol to the flames rather than dousing the flames.
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#246
MunichMadrid7980,
Now! your closer than you'll ever know!
Tendering contract's are fishy and the bad smell of the rotten carrion is lingering through-out every European state member's parliament's.
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No 301 PurpleDogzzz
'I sincerely hope that these worker's protests are not hijacked and turned into a race issue against foreign workers instead of the issue of preventing racism against British workers.'
=====
Are you still at the 'hope' stage? Unfortunately, I lost all hope the last time the Chinese premier came in 1997. Remember when any Free Tibet protestors were hauled off in police vans just for flying the Tibetan flag? That was the start.
Back on topic, though. Of course it will hijacked and turned as all protestors are racist, protectionist, right wing, BNP supporters, etc, etc. It already has.
Believe me, the biggest extremists sit in power. Be afraid, be very afraid.
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#244 Fubar_Saunders
It doesn't matter Fubar. As I in turn can't tell you what to see or indeed do.
:-(
Like in humanitarian intervention, which I believe you were trying, it has been shown to be a mistake to always assume a position of neutrality as this can in fact be detrimental. Rather first look to acknowledge where there have been wrongs, and gain more respect.
So I'll be off on my "wildcat strike"/sulk.
("I hope you had the time of your life"....)
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169 purpledogzz
#Good old grand, comparing apples to oranges again.
So come on my halucinary friend [what month in the spring can we expect Armageddon, again] tell me the difference between wildcat strikes under the Tories And wildcat strikes under Labour.
Your ridiculous perpetual argument about a unelected PM and suggesting that the existing laws on employment on any workers British or foreign are anything to do with the Lisbon treaty are to say the very least absurd you mention Ireland as not accepting the treaty, I dont know if you know how these things work but as things stand there is no Lisbon treaty.
#The only voice they have!
I am afraid that does not wash if you have laws that millions of british workers take advantage of by working all over the world and then say that people from these same countries can't work here then yours and their thinking has gone awry, not one of these men striking have lost their job through this action their striking because the foreign companies are employing their own people in the same way as British firms abroad are employing Btitish naturals,their strike is totally unjustified thats why Cameron wants no part of it.
#Grand, the founders of the labour movement will be spinning in their graves, and it shows how far to the extreme right, towards outright fascism,
No my friend the socialist beliefs are for all men/women not just British, socialism is not the bedfellow of protectionism, on the contrary the founders of the labour movement will be spinning in their graves, at the way these self seeking smug union leaders are betraying their roots and leading working men against working men albeit men legitimatly here from other countries.
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236. Fubar
In 10 years plus in the City I've never met anyone who supports any mainstream UK political party but one.
[Clue: it's the one with the most libertarian tax policies towards, er, high earners and those who are able to retire and live off savings' interest]
I dare say that the odd Opportunist has been known to fraternise with the Oppo', hardly surprising since they've been in office for nearly 12 years.
Are you seriously suggesting that the CBI and the City have gone pinko?
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a-w
Sorry, the mods won't let me have a laugh with you about English and Scots not being separate 'races'. Can't see what the problem is, perhaps it's Salmond or Griffin moonlighting?
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130 yellowbelly
Speaking of consistency, what happened to those champions of the downtrodden working man, the Unions and the Labour Party. Who are they supporting now, please remind me?
There are no downtrodden men in this country if a man/woman looses his/her job through a recession thats not downtrodden. When people like Maggie close down pits and steelworks without any notice and with no consideration for their families ,Thats downtrodden.
The labour party are supporting the rule of law entered into by the elected British government which supports all men/women within the EU.
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#247 Susan-Croft
"I remember my father telling me how much he was restricted in learning new parts of his job by the union in case the managers thought one man could do the job of two. Also some of the workers used to be able to finish their jobs in a couple of hours and sleep the rest of the day if they wanted to. How you could not get a job at certain places because you had to be a relation of someone who worked there to get your union card. At the drop of a hat it would be everyone going on strike for petty things. No I do not want to see these things happen again."
What a strange day I am having! Slighted slightly by Fubar and now I am in agreement with you Susan!!
(There's nothing more annoying than a loud mouth "union man".)
Can YOU believe it!!
;-)
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29 yellowbelly
346 yellowbelly 2/2/09 at 1.26 pm
#"If you are right and I will accept that you are
Then I apologise unreservedly
You do understand the word apologise I take it? or is it unreservedly that difficult for you.
#but if your wrong then a curse on your house sir."
I know not to many tories have But have you heard about humour?
#Sorry really does seem to be the hardest word, doesn't it, both for you and Gordon Brown!?
What did you expect me to kiss
thats the best apology you will get from me old chum.
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I have no doubt that the language spoken of these workers has been a factor in their employment. Imagine the confusion amongst members of a team speaking a completely different language. So is the recruiting by this sub-contractor fair? Did english speakers have a fair shot at employment to this contract? Perhaps not.
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#187 Susan-Croft
"It is Governments job to listen to its peoples discontent justified or not, It is Governments job not to erode our freedoms which we have enjoyed for so long."
While I agree with your subsequent comments on Blair/Brown (and I still won't forgive Eden's Tories for dragging us into the illegal Suez War), the above is simply inaccurate, I'm afraid.
English constitutional law is quite clear. Sovereignty lies with Parliament, not the people. You get a chance to vote every few years, but once Parliament is elected, it selects the Government, and it's only "job" is to try and get its party elected again.
If you want your wishes to be true, try voting for a party that wants to reform the constitution of these benighted isles.
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The two government viewpoints are a result of the juxtaposition between (a) EU rules that say what Total and its contractors are doing is entirely legal and (b) keeping the unions on-side.
The fact is, and no-one in government will admit to it (Mandleson was so very careful with his words on R4 yesterday lest he upset everyone, he could hardly say anything, thats why he hesitated so much), that what is happening in Lincolnshire is allowed under EU rules.
The government have no ability to intervene, nor can they ever have a chance of influencing the other members of the EU and changing the rules.
Whether its morally right, or if its allowed in other EU countries (if nothing else, an affront to our sense of fair play) is something else entirely.
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#260 MunichMadrid7980
OK, I'll take your invisible comments in jest! (Need a laugh! :-P)
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No 254 said: "Yes the tendering process does seem very odd. Total sub-contracting to a US firm, which in turn sub contracts to an Italian company. I wonder if this was a ploy to circumvent EU tendering rules/laws?"
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You don't seem to understand the construction industry. For a start, Total is the client, not a contractor. Total want something built at their refinery, making them the client. They awarded the contract to an American company, who became the "principal" or main contractor and would manage the delivery of the project. They may or may not choose to deliver it themselves, or they may sub-contract the various stages of the work out.
For example, the civil engineering works allocated to a civil engineering company.
It's the way the construction industry works. Bovis Lend Lease has been one of this country's largest construction firms for years, but they build hardly anything themselves; they sub-contract the work out and manage the sub-contractors.
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we are talking about a few hundred jobs i'm sure there are alot more than a few hundred British workers working in Italy and other EU nations. The EU is a major trading partner of the world it seems idiotic too want out, i couldn't imagine the UK not in the EU and i hope it never happens as it would be suicide, at least half our trade is done with other EU nations. Britain in the EU is a strong economy, Britain alone is dead in the water, we British need to stop complaining when we can't get things our own way, we live in the EU whether we like it or not and we should abide by the laws. G Brown shouldn't be able to say British jobs for British people, then say we are living in a global world. The Italian firm that won the contract outbid other British companies so claims of discrimination are wrong
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261. At 5:48pm on 03 Feb 2009, grandantidote wrote:
130 yellowbelly
...The labour party are supporting the rule of law entered into by the elected British government which supports all men/women within the EU.
===
But not British workers made redundant and replaced by imported labour:
" taken from the Socialist World website:
A ninety-day redundancy notice had been issued, around mid November 2008, at Lindsey Oil Refinery (LOR), Lincolnshire, England, for Shaws' workforce.
This meant that by 17 February 2009, a number of Shaws' construction workers (LOR) would be made redundant.
The day before the Christmas holiday, Shaws' shop-stewards reported to the men that a part of the contract on LOR's HDS3 plant had been awarded to IREM, an Italian company.
The Stewards explained that Shaws had lost one third of the contract to IREM, who would be employing their own Portuguese and Italian workforce, numbering 200-300.
Stewards and Union Officials asked to meet with IREM after Christmas, to clarify the proposal (i.e. if IREM would employ British labour?). Shaws' workforce were told that the IREM workforce would be housed in floating barges, in Grimsby docks, for the duration of the job. They would be bussed to work in the morning, and bussed to and from the barge for lunch.
IREM workers would work from 7.30am - 11.30am and 13.00 - 1700. On Saturdays, they would work 4 hours, to make up a working week of 44 hours. The normal working week is 44 hours, over 5 days, from 7.30 -1600, finishing at 1400 on Fridays (most workers work overtime).
Normal breaks include 10 minutes in the morning and a 30 minute dinner break. Stewards were told that IREM workers would be paid the national rate for the job. To date this has not been confirmed.
After Christmas, the nominated Shop Stewards entered into negotiations with IREM. Meanwhile, a National Shop Stewards Forum for the construction Industry held a meeting in London to discuss Staythorpe Power Station, where the company Alstom were refusing to hire British labour, relying on non-union Polish and Spanish workers instead.
Workers? solidarity
It was decided that all Blue Book sites, covered by the National Agreement for the Engineering and Construction Industry (NAECI), should send delegations down to Staythorpe to protest against Alstoms' actions.
The workforce on the LOR site sent delegations. Then, on Wednesday, 28 January 2009, Shaws' workforce were told by the Stewards that IREM had stated they would not be employing British labour.
The entire LOR workforce, from all subcontracting companies, met and voted unanimously to take immediate unofficial strike action.
The following day, over a thousand construction workers from LOR, Conoco and Easington sites descended outside LOR's gate to picket and protest.
This was the spark that ignited the spontaneous unofficial walk outs of our brother construction workers across the length and breadth of Britain.
This worker solidarity is against the 'conscious blacking' of British construction workers by company bosses who refuse to recruit skilled British labour in the U.K.
The workers of LOR, Conoco and Easington did not take strike action against immigrant workers. Our action is rightly aimed against company bosses who attempt to play off one nationality of worker against the other and undermine the NAECI agreement."
===
By the way, did you catch Frank Field on the BBC Daily Politics Show yesterday, very interesting. If you missed him, it's available on iPlayer!
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grandy
I wonder if you would be so generous if your job was given over to a foreigner?
Lucky for you, you're retired.
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263. At 6:00pm on 03 Feb 2009, grandantidote wrote:
29 yellowbelly
346 yellowbelly 2/2/09 at 1.26 pm
#"If you are right and I will accept that you are
Then I apologise unreservedly
You do understand the word apologise I take it? or is it unreservedly that difficult for you.
#but if your wrong then a curse on your house sir."
===
No ifs, no buts, I was right, you initially refused to accept it, then I get a qualified, grudging apology with an if attached. Still, as you say:
"thats the best apology you will get from me old chum."
So I think you have shown your true colours there. Thank you.
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259#
Yeah, whatever Munich. You beleive what you want to. I really cant be ar$ed at the moment.
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265 Hi oldnat
I agree, but a Government does have a duty to comply with its manifesto as well.
However the job of Government I was speaking of is their duty to act in a manner that will not spread discontent amongst its people.
Government does exist by the will of the people, as the people can bring a Government down, as has been done before.
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254 cat, and ll Tory bloggers
You seem to blame the EU. I attach more blame to the Global Megacorps, whose directors are generally by definition ruthless, ambitious men with few scruples- otherwise how would they have climbed so high up the greasy pole?
Forgive me from quoting 'The Godfather', but the EU and the Megacorps are part of the same hypocrisy- and the Megacorps hold the whip hand.
The questions for us mere pawns are:
(a) what can we do about it as individuals or as small groups? [not a lot, but a few wildcat strikes have got to be worth a go]
(b) which mainstream UK party out of the only two who can realistically hold power in the UK are most likely to even want to exert any power over Big Business?
That's what I really don't get about so many contributors to this blog.
Just about every blogger here is apparently a patriotic, freedom-loving, stand-up-for-the-little-guy, ordinary-person-supporting normal human being.
Yet, most are also (unpaid, I dare say) spokespersons for the Conservatives- the one UK party who have always, and will always, when in power put the vested interests of International Big Business (globalisation, to use its modern name) over the rights of the ordinary Jo(e).
The very name 'Conservatives' comes from the party's primary aim- to conserve the status quo, inherited family wealth [how much does DC stand to get?] and privilege for the top 5%, and sink or swim for the rest. All of which relies on Big Business continuing to trample over our interests.
It is amazing that few on this blog can see that there is any conflict between being a die-hard Tory supporter and wanting to protect the ordinary decent Briton from being crushed by International Big Business (Total etc). Do you people not realise that there's nothing that Total etc would like better (apart from a high oil price) than to see laissez-faire right-wing governments all over Europe and beyond? That's why they got behind Hitler, Mussolini and Franco (and Bush)
The same goes for the banks. Don't you Conservative bloggers out there get that the world's megabanks are owned, managed and staffed (at the top levels) overwhelmingly by ruthless individualists whose economic philosophy is very close to that of your own glorious chinless leader?
Why do you think that the boy Dave and his chums would even want to protect us the ordinary Joes from the greedy bankers at the top? Most of them would have him for breakfast, and his chum, but that's beside the point.
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#271 shellingout
Why should it make any difference to ans (employed) grandantidote, whether he lost his job to a "foreigner", or the guy next door - unless he was a xenophobic idiot, which clearly he isn't.
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been without hot water and heating for last 3 days, finally been fixed and ABSOLUTELY and decadently enjoying a steaming, hot bath in a roastingly warm room!
Isn't it funny how suddenly your perception and values can change?
It's astounding what we take for granted-I am thankful that at least I had gas and electricity for cooking and basic cleanliness, and no small children in the house during the coldest snap for ages with 6" snow on the ground. Despite having a chronic illness, the last few days have given me plenty to me grateful for.
Lose a few basic human needs that are extremely well catered for, and watch your daily requirements become rapidly reassessed!
It's easy to pontificate from a seat of comfort.
We had a temporary blip, and before anyone shouts, I have been on my knees begging for food for my children when my husband was made unexpectedly redundant many years ago. My children were aged 1 and 3.
The need to provide for your family is a basic human instinct, whether a couple or single parent.
My daughter (now 20) said, as I washed her hair for her in the sink:
"I don't think I could be a parent-this self sacrificing thing seems too difficult"
My reply:
"it's not difficult at all-it's natural-you don't even know you're doing it most of the time!"
My point is-
These strikes have nothing whatsoever with a European law, inverse racism or anything else. When the chips are completely non existent, fashionable ideals do not put food in your children's bellies, food on their backs,nor a roof over their heads.
Ask a homeless family what they think about recycling/pension funds/stocks and shares/politics?
I know what their answer will be.
THIS is the cause of the strikes.
THIS is the face of the credit crunch.
This is where many of us are heading or have already arrived.
The rules and regulations are at fault in connection with foreign workers. They are only too pleased to have work-their pay and working conditions are appalling in Portugal and Italy. As nations they are incredibly family minded, but follow the work.
How many people are this family orientated in this country? Many may be, but not as many as SHOULD be. Entirely the fault of our successive governments encouraging all patents to work long hours through tax credits, jigger inflation figures and low wage rises as a result. Many families can only pay their bills through obtaining credit-as a NEED, not a want. Their employers cannot afford the myriad of taxes so lay people off.
What my jusnad and I take home, which allows us very modest savings through thrift, makes us seem like millionaires in Portugal.
I suspect the striking workers see their family lives disappearing, but I suspect they would say nothing if the boot were on the other foot. The fact is, as other posters have declared so eloquently, wages abroad are rubbish, and the tax laws here mean people work for nexttp nothing.
As a people, we have been forsaken by our governments.
Our social structure is rent assunder in the name of politics.
At the bottom anyone of us would fight fiercely against anyone perceived to be threatening our family.
Protectionist and racist? I think not.
Gut instinct and family values? Absolutely.
Take benefits away and see what happens! We'll all be in the same boat!
And finally-my heritage makes me 3/4 french. Does that mean my father and mother have to return to a life they barely remember before being refugees in this country at the ages of 5 and 3?
I have a British passport? Does that make me a target for racial abuse?
The government is at fault. Blame them fairly and squarely. Attack their dodgy way of running this country and selling us out. Noone else is to blame!
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""All I can say is HITLER was in favour of globalisation, BROWN is in favour of globalisation......."
I agree with laughatthetories on this one, Brown cannot possibly be compared to Hitler and to do so is offensive.
1. Hitler murdered MILLIONS of people in genocidal insanity.
Brown is not in that league. Even Bush fell far short.
2. However, Hitler was efficient, capable and brilliant at what he did (unfortunately for 10 million of his victims).
Whereas Brown is utterly incompetent.
3. Hitler took a basket case economy and turned it into a global power, the likes of which took the combined might of the USA, Russia and the entire commonwealth countries, plus other assorted allies to defeat him,
Brown took a wonderful economy and turned it into a basket case.
4. Unfortunately Hitler was brave enough to take on the whole world in warfare.
Brown would not even dare hold an election when he was leading in the polls by 11%.
Actually, I am quite glad that Brown is incompetent. Imagine how dangerous he would be if he was competent!
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#274 Susan-Croft
I admire a lady with fortitude in her hopes!
I only remember the UK Governments since Eden's days, and remember none who didn't spread discontent among "its people".
However, I note that you follow English constitutional convention!
"its people" - "it" = the possessor : "people" = the possessed. :-)
Always nice to see someone who knows when to put an apostrophe in "its".
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#236 Fubar_Saunders
#259 MunichMadrid7980
#273 Fubar_Saunders
Boys, you are just as manly as each other! Come on, I do not want to offend either of you here. If I sook in to both of you it will be okay!
The bankers were Labour-loving trough hogs AND they were Tory tax dodgers.
OK, Fuber, this is evil of me. (You see my point.)
But you're swiftcover insurance also insured you against pi88ing me off, so I can't stay cheesed off with you, OK?
I can't do it :-)
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Lord Mandelson and his let them eat cake
speech from the Lords, indicates his aspirations of living in ivory towers which he has become asccustomed.
This chap is a luxury the Govenment can not afford, neither can this Country
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@233: said, "You may like to note that we do not elect Prime Ministers in the UK"
YAWN!!! Irrelevent!
As I have written many times, We do NOT elect Prime Ministers but we do elect parties based on their manifesto, and according to our unwritten constitution, the new leader of a political party in power IS entitled to become Prime Minister, BUT that gives the newcomer NO democratic mandate whatsoever to change course from the manifesto upon which he was elected to Parliament on.
John Major became PM after Thatcher was deposed, but at least his was on the back of an election by the constituency MPs. He then only changed from the manifesto in popular ways, in terms of scrapping the poll-tax, and he started to get the country out of recession.
If Cameron gets into power and steps down, then there would at least be an election involving the whole of the Conservative party to find a replacement. Although Cameron has stated that he would consider changing the law to ensure a general election when a sitting Prime Minister stands down, is deposed or dies in office.
Brown was not even elected to his position by his own supine and cowardly party. In fact he was not even elected by his own Parliamentary party. There was NO leadership election at all.
All they had was a fatuous, expensive and pointless election for deputy, where many MP's broke the fund-raising rules and spent a fortune travelling around the country explaining to anyone who would listen what the labour party would do if they were elected deputy. Ignoring the fact that whoever won, they would only be allowed to do what Gordon bloody told them to do!
Gordon has taken power after a long campaign to undermine and depose Blair and then immediately sought to scrap the election pledges in the 2005 manifesto. I would not have minded these changes if they were to improve the UK and benefit voters. But his changes have been against the public interest as in trying to resurrect 42 day detention, abandoning the EU treaty referendum etc etc.
The man has LESS democratic accountability than Hamas. At least they fought and won a genuine democratic election with a clear majority.
IF Brown wanted to change policies and go in a different direction from the manifesto, and he had the courage of his convictions, then he should have called an election to get a mandate to do so.
As it is, Brown has NO democratic credentials whatsoever.
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Susan Croft: "I remember my father telling me how much he was restricted in learning new parts of his job by the union in case the managers thought one man could do the job of two. Also some of the workers used to be able to finish their jobs in a couple of hours and sleep the rest of the day if they wanted to. How you could not get a job at certain places because you had to be a relation of someone who worked there to get your union card. At the drop of a hat it would be everyone going on strike for petty things. No I do not want to see these things happen again."
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Agreed. When my 18 year old daughter watched carry-on at your convenience, she thought it was ridiculous that one man could call an entire factory out over any tiny irellevent grievence, so they could go to watch football instead. She thought the film was far fetched.
Far from it, I told her. If they wanted to, they could even send flying pickets to other factories and shut them too.
That is the kind of power that should only ever be used in very very very remote and extreme circumstances.
Losing a tea-break is not one of them.
I do think that losing any recognition and democratic power in your own country and having to suffer under a government and unions and bosses who hold you in contempt, and having them all actively discriminate against you, thus leaving you no alternative but to take civil and peaceful protest, probably is grounds for such action.
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I am not a fan of Carol Thatcher, indeed I have no interest in her as a personality. I am, however, angry, or even more so, worried, that private conversations taking place in the BBC Green Room are reported and become public knowledge. It seemed Miss Thatcher used the dreaded, banned "G" word. What concerns me, is not this person's choice of words, in what she assumed was a private conversation, it is the erosion of personal liberty, privacy and the presence of informers. Quite a few postings here make reference, both direct and subtle, to pre-World War II dictatorships. It is getting rather frightening when we cannot have a private conversation without being reported.
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282 purple
I am afraid you are wrong concerning the election of the leader of the governing party.
He was elected unopposed, a common occurence in democratic organizations. I thought you would have understood that.
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Silverlady: Re the EU: "It was originally enivisaged as and should never have been any more than a trading partnership."
-----------------------------------
Actually that was the deliberate lies fed to the public to get them to go along with it. Although that was what the people in the UK voted for in the 1970's referendum, the actual intention of the founders was very very different.
The original founders of the EU knew exactly what they wanted the EU to be and it was slowly becoming it. Now it is becoming it at break-neck speed.
Read any of the speeches of the people that started it from the original Concept as envisaged at the first Bilderberg Conference where the idea was first conceived.
The plan all along was a supra-national body, a federal country that takes the place of nation states, as a stepping stone to one world government, one world currency and one system for all.
It has been so successful that the same template is being followed globally, with the North American Union, the African Union and the Asian Union. All to be slowly integrated into a nation.
The EU and the NAU has already started deals and signed treaties to merge at some point in the future. As these pan-national unions merge they will form a global government.
Watch any video of Barnett's presentation "The Pentagons New Map - Thomas Barnett lecture."
He lays out the blueprint for it all. Explaining who is who in globalisation, who is in the gap and how they are going to connect the entire planet by force if necessary. Independent nation states are NOT to be tolerated.
He makes a brilliant job of selling "globalisation by force" AKA Global fascist dictatorship.
The EU is only a stepping stone.
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#282 purpleDogzzz
What a long post to demonstrate that you don't understand your own constitutional law. Actually most of it is written, it's just never been codified.
How the PM is selected by Parliament is entirely up to them. Once you have elected the MPs to the Commons, they exercise sovereignty. The people have nothing to do with it. In English constitutional law (unlike almost everywhere in the world) the people are not sovereign.
You might want that to be the case, but it's not. If you want the people to be sovereign, then you have to do something about it - not just pretend that you have a position which you don't have, and whinge about it on a blog.
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"So come on my halucinary friend [what month in the spring can we expect Armageddon, again] "
OH please moderators, please grant me the right of reply to this uninformed gentleman...
Grand, where do I start....
Well I shall say this, since the Americans refused to ship the baby bunker-busting nukes the Israeli's wanted to blow the Iranian nuclear reactors apart, (last November) The potential for Armageddon has been......delayed.
However, check out in the Israeli media what is being reported. If the far right win the upcoming election in Israel, They have given Obama a few months to put a stop to Iran's nuclear ambitions and they have pledged that if he fails, then they will attack the Iranian nuclear facilities within weeks. But not only the nuclear facilities, Oh no. They have also stated that they were using the offensive (with chemical weapons) against Hamas (and all the other innocent civilians) in Gaza as a practice run for Tehran and their version of regime change...
So what? they destroyed the Osirak nuclear reactor on 7th June 1981 and nobody lifted a finger to stop or rebuke them then?
Well, the Iranian facilities are still being built with Russian expertise and man-power. China and Russia have signed massive and strategically significant defence and energy deals with Iran. What do you suppose they will do if Israel nukes Iran and kills Russian citizens and destroys Russia and china's energy deals and strikes with nuclear force at a strategic defence partner of Russia???
By way of a hint....The Israelis trained the Georgian Military in their raids on South Ossettia. The Isrealis and Americans believed that the Russians would not defend South Ossettia and this would allow them to open a defensive coridoor down to Iran, across their ally Armenia, thus blocking Russia from having a land coridoor through Georgia. The Georgians tried and failed to block the main tunnel from North Ossettia to South Ossettia through the mountains. Russian tanks flooded through.
So Israel and America tested Russian mettle and ....
Well look what happened there!
After this, the Americans backed down and refused to give Israel military support and equipment to carry out the attacks.
But don't take my word for it... Check it out for yourself, if you are capable.
Global geopolitics is FAR more precarious than you think.
Do not dare to ridicule that which you cannot possibly understand.
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A-W
How can you possibly be offended by Fubar? He currently languishes in 84th place in my league table of offensive bloggers - way behind Pat, jonathan et al.
By the way, I remember Ken Livingstone in 1985 ish predicting financial chaos as a result of financial institutions packaging up debt and selling it off. This is not a recent phenomenon, the bonfire has been ready to go up for years, Bush ignited it.
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So we have a Nurse being reported and now suspended for offering to mention a patient in her prayers ( even an atheist can see that this was nothing more than an act of kindness whatever else you think of it) and now a minor celebrity being reported for something said in a private conversation.
I think such people as these who seem anxious to report others on the slightest issue would be well suited to ensuring the cattle trucks are kept well stocked. Resistence is futile !
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Surely the answer to this is any contractor who wishes to take a contract on in the Uk has to advertise some the jobs required here, ie local content. Not all of the jobs can be classed as key jobs by definition, so there can be local recruitment. How difficult is that.
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271 shellingout
I wonder if you would be so generous if your job was given over to a foreigner?
Since I was self employed in a rather unusual profession for most of my life that was'nt likely to happen, but I have worked in France and in Holland and felt not the slightest animosity.
No one's job has been given over to a foreigner to my knowledge, I like to think that any member of the EU can go to work anywhere within the EU, I think that part of the trouble with the Brits is that they have still uniquely hung on to their use of passports within the EU we still have the barricades up unlike the rest of Europe.
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#289 Laughatthetories
"A-W
How can you possibly be offended by Fubar?"
Aaaargggh, I feel bad now!
To start, I really like Fubar - can't help but not. He does not put it on at all, quite often blows in in a flurry of disdain/disgust/disappointment which I like, he's honest etc. etc.
Reason:
In his attempted mediation between myself and flame, he was a bit patronising, probably inadvertantly (the big futtret), but trying to make us appear similar (''come on ladies'' - NO, Fube!) was possibly the biggest insult he could throw my way (given what I had alleged about flame), you see?
Plus, worse, when the gals, Susan and flame appealed to Fubar (I think they 'love' him and were protective and jealous of me!), he bent over backwards (again I'm sure he didn't mean it) to seek their approval - at the same time as seeking mine! No, no, that doesn't work. Take a stance, yes, do it nicely, but show us enough respect to take at least one us seriously. I was a bit put out - and sulked!
Fubar I think just doesn't like to pi88 off any woman, but in doing so he succeeded. Is this making any sense (I have had some beers and clarity of thought has abandoned me).
I feel bad and will feel better if he reads this, so I hope he does, so that he knows, then we can both forget - now I know that doesn't make sense! Lol :-P
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276 oldnat
Why should it make any difference to ans (employed) grandantidote, whether he lost his job to a "foreigner", or the guy next door - unless he was a xenophobic idiot, which clearly he isn't.
Thankyou for your reasoned support.
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#287
Oldnat and the shrek gang, why do you lot keep on telling the English how to vote, when you have 6 snp MP's in westminster
all claiming a wage and all very quiet about Independence? or are they secretly plotting some kinda gun powder polt?.
Why dont the English ask Oldnat and co, why their MP's sit in westminster and collect a wage and swear an oath, when they are supposedly against everything westminster stand for.
Double standards and fake integrity, Eh,
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288 purpledogzz
Cool down old chap of course the moderaters will let you answer me. So what your telling me is that your prediction for armegeddon in the spring has been postponed, thats fair enough I wasn't going to hold you to it, I don't mind waiting in fact I'm quite pleased about it.
#But don't take my word for it... Check it out for yourself, if you are capable.
Oh yes I am capable of checking it out for myself but strangely I arrive at a different conclusion to you. I have a little more faith in human nature than you it would seem armageddon is a no win situation and I dont think that anyone in their right mind would want that and these decisions are not unilateral.
#Do not dare to ridicule that which you cannot possibly understand.
Is that a command from Zues or Apollo or perhaps Artemis, or could it be from Captain Kirk of the Enterprise.
It's that sort of statement that makes me ridicule most of your remarks and not without reason I fear.
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#294 grandantidote
I was sometimes (less than I should have been) unhappy about the xenophobia that was prevalent in Scotland about other people in these islands 50 years ago when I first became involved in politics.
It's less common now (though still there), but I regret it's apparent rise in some of the more southerly parts of the UK towards those who are not British/English.
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ABOUT VINO AND CHIPS
Perhaps it should be remembered that, basically, free movement of labour constitutes probably the most significant legislation in the European Community. In reality, the Brits, Italians, Dutch a.o. are perfectly entitled to find work within its borders. Football players have been benefiting from this for years, including Brits playing and managing in Spain, Italy, Holland, Italy etc that were previously out of reach due to numerous problems with work and resident permits. It is all due to " European integration" - supported , one understands, among many others by Kenneth Clarke opposition M.P.
One fears demonstrations could be seen as illegal in this respect and merely represent a final bout of old British xenophobia .
Paul V.
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#295 derekbarker
BORING Derek,
Alex Salmond gives his wage to charity, they don't vote on English only matters and we'd rather there didn't have to be any Scottish MPs - and how would we like to go about that?
Yes, independence!
You're going to have to come up with something better than that if you want to impress me ;-)
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#295 derekbarker
What an odd post!
I'm simply pointing out to some Brits that they don't understand the undemocratic constitution that they live under. Of course, they will vote as they wish. Some will even vote Labour under the misguided impression that the New Labour Party is the party that both of us supported in the past. You simply haven't recognised that it has moved to the Right in order to take and keep power.
I think you are confusing Sinn Fein with the SNP and Plaid Cymru. The latter parties don't have any plans to replace Lizzie with a Republican President - much though some individuals within these parties and Labour might like to. The oath is not a problem (you clearly don't know what it is).
When did you become a monarchist btw?
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282 purple
The current British PM has the same democratic mandate as Churchill(1940), Eden, Hume, Callaghan and Major.
You were also wrong concerning the election of PMs and the Council of Ministers.
You seem a little confused, well perhaps not just a little.
Do you think that is a possible that other anti government contributers could be consistently displaying a similar degree of ignorance of simple fundamental political issues?
If so can you imagine those two well known political strategists, Peter and Alistair bursting with laughter at the quality of opposition.
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The very expensive parish council in Edinburgh will finally agree to spend the 33Bn budget however the rising cost of the tram track being layed in the Capital will surely drain a fair amount from the budget
and of course in these difficults times the nationalist also thought it wise to spend 50 million on one painting,however they have refused to put up any real money for new apprenticeships but have promised to try and borrow more so they can buy the full collection of paintings, by a famous Italian artist no one seems to know.
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299 aye-write
No one is trying to impress you dear ;-)
Look, are you familiar with the word charlatans. You should be?.
Oldnat, Ah, so your telling me that the snp MP's in westminster spend 4 days a week in westminster but only select Scottish issues to debate. Part timers, who still collect a full-time salary from the post?. Odd indeed?.
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#303 derekbarker
"299 aye-write
No one is trying to impress you dear ;-)
Look, are you familiar with the word charlatans. You should be?"
Jealous then?
;-)
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#303 derekbarker
"Oldnat, Ah, so your telling me that the snp MP's in westminster spend 4 days a week in westminster but only select Scottish issues to debate."
This issue is primarily for our English friends to debate - should MPs from Scottish seats vote on English only issues, when English MPs can't vote on similar issues in Scotland. Your friend Tam Dalyell raised this issue - the West Lothian question.
SNP and Plaid Cymru MPs, the Scottish Tory and (I think) Scottish Lib-Dems decline to vote on English issues because they understand democracy. I realise that Labour wouldn't be able to extend its authoritarian rule over England without its Scottish and Welsh cohorts.
You have chosen to refer to the Scottish Parliament as the "Parish Council" as per Brian Wilson (although Scotland has never had parish councils - an entirely English structure.)
Democracy is rather a good thing, and the English seem to have been somewhat deprived of it.
Do they want to debate the details of Scottish and Welsh education/health etc - I would doubt it, but they may correct me.
Do they want to decide their own education/health etc policies without interference from those who are unaffected by their votes? I would have thought so, but they are free to correct my misapprehensions.
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283 Hi PurpleDogzzz
I do think that losing any recognition and democratic power in your own country and having to suffer under a government and unions and bosses who hold you in contempt, and having them all actively discriminate against you, thus leaving you no alternative but to take civil and peaceful protest, probably is grounds for such action.
Absolutely if you read my other posts I make this exact point. I am entirely behind these workers, I was merely pointing out that unions in my opinion serve no purpose to the working man anymore and how we must improve our skills if we want to compete.
It, seems this morning though that the Government has come up with a proposal that half of the workers that are Italian, are to be replaced by British workers. Where this leaves the legal situation I have no idea. How this will be perceived in the EU is another question? I can not see how this is the answer to the problem. The Government to me is acting out of desperation. Whether this will be enough for the workers will remain to be seen.
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279 oldnat morning
No matter how it is put in the English way or not. I certainly do not see the people of this country as a possession of its Government. In fact the people have much more power than they realise at the moment, and if this Government does not improve they will use it. The people have been held hostage for far too long by Brown and co.
Brown was not elected as Prime Minister of this country. The people were not given their democratic rights.
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Morning all,
I see we had the usual afternoon shift in with the mods! They do seem to get a bit antsy post lunch - the morning guys seem to let things flow a bit more........
Anyway - back to the strikes (lest we get modded this early :-)
I am in agreement with the majority of posters on the strikes, but only from the stand point that UK workers were not allowed to tender for the work - this needs to be proven beyond doubt
To all those claiming that a US contractor was used to sidestep EU law - you need to find out how things really work in contracting. It doesn't matter where you register your firm - if you want to contract within the EU (or member nation) then you must abide by the relevant employment laws etc. Most EU nations insist on you having a legaly registered company set up before you can trade
In the UK a LTD company is required, in Holland a BV etc etc. You cannot sidestep legislation that easily. Getting back to the main point I don't see a problem with the Italian firm winning the bid - if they won it fair and square
We are all memebers of the EU workforce, everyone has an equal right to work anywhere they choose. It has helped me immensly in my work.
Most of these type of contracts are awarded to firms with a known track record for whatever project is running. You can't just say 'we have to get the contract because it's in our country'
That's not the way it works in the real world. Most of the big global companies use preferred sub-contractors, more often than not the same one in many countries
What needs to be proved here is whether or not UK contractors were allowed to bid for the project. Once the project is won it's down to the winning firm to decide who gets the physical work - if they decide to use their own workforce entirely; that's up to them. It's not illegal to choose to do so
I have worked for a globally registered preferred supplier to a large telecomms outfit, as such I have worked all over Europe. I don't feel I have 'stolen locals jobs' it's just the way of the world
Sadly this happens in the bad times. Would the response have been such 5 years ago when times were good? I think not
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Really brief, if this had happened in France the whole country (France) would have gone on strike, but then again if Total were in France carrying out this kind of work they would not have dared try to fly in other European workers.
We have numerous professional and highly trained workers that are unemployed in Britain why on earth would a large company carrying work out in Britain not want to use the employment force of this country? Answer 'cheap labour'.
Once again if this company were in France and tried to bring in other european works the France would have gone on total shut down and there would have been major strikes across the country.
We should all support the people that have gone and strike, I do and good luck to them.
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I totally agree with #307, the people have been held hostage to fortune by this Government for too long. With pensions ruined, savings ruined, businesses ruined, jobs ruined, it is time to call for an election before anarchy set in.
Unfortunately Labour cannot stand up for British workers because they have insisted our country immerse itself deeper inside the EU. Such was the message from the duplicitous Mandleson in the Upper House. By refusing a promised referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, Labour has ensured EU law takes priority over British law. It is truly understandable how aggrieved unemployed British workers now feel.
As a consequence, foreign workers are here legally and British workers must realize they have been ignored by Brown who has failed to explain the full implications of EU membership.
EU laws now take precedence over British laws and consequently he and Mandleson dare not admit they have lost control of employment and immigration controls. Brown refused a promised referendum on the Lisbon Treaty knowing 85% of the British people would vote against it.
EU laws are made by the unelected bureaucratic Commission in Brussels. MEPs are only allowed limited debate (perhaps 1 minute per MEP) and then vote. Their powers to control the Commission are virtually zero. Commissioner Barossa, a former member of the Portuguese Communist Party, presides over this flawed conglomerate.
Despite opposition warnings, Labour has deliberately and stealthily misled our country into deeper involvement. The Tories will redress the balance starting by withdrawing their MEPs from the EPP Group in Brussels and give the British people a much needed referendum.
Labour critics should remember, after 12 years, they have squandered their 'golden inheritance from 1997' blown their chances of good governance and utterly failed our country. They have sidelined Parliament and brought our country ignominiously to its knees.
Whilst this Government remains in power, many thousands are losing their jobs every day. Labour membership has collapsed, and their unpopularity soared. They remain completely dysfunctional and must resign before the whole country implodes.
It will be a very tough job, but the country needs a professionally responsible Tory Government to salvage what is left of our devastated economy and bring confidence and good living standards back to the British people.
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JOBS FOR LOCAL WORKERS IS MOST CERTAINLY DEFENSIBLE
Firstly, jobs must go to local workers, otherwise workers would have to uproot their home, and their families could be scattered all over the world. Gordon Brown and the contractor at the Lincolnshire refinery, don’t care if workers live on a barge away from their family. Politicians only concern is for themselves, by making promises to get elected.
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#291
job done. Next!
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#311
Unfortunately it's not always possible to work where you live. I've found that if you want the better jobs and pay then you invariably have to move to get them
The notion that everyone should have a well paid good job on their doorstep is a good one; however, it's just not possible in reality
I've always had to move with work. I would dearly love to move home and live in my house for a while but there's just no real work where I live (not that I want to do anyway) Don't get me wrong - I choose to work and live abroad. I want to earn good money and live well, and this means sacrificing certain things
It is a choice though. You can choose where you work and live, no-one has a born right to have good employment where they live. If you want certain things in life then you have to work to get them
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You see I am not so sure that local workers being guaranteed jobs is hugely defensible. How local is local? Is it 10 miles, 20 or 30? Like many people who work in London I don’t actually live there, I live about 25 miles outside London in Essex I would not count myself as a local worker. Now London has areas of relatively high unemployment, especially in areas such as the Isle of Dogs (Canary Wharf). Now the first job I got in Crossharbour (just outside Canary Wharf in case your not sure where it is) was a telephone customer service agent, not the most highly skilled job (as anyone calling a call centre will testify to).
Under the logic in Forensic Debate’s post and from things I have heard the Unite shop steward say I probably should not have been employed, I got the job at the end of the last economic downturn after being made redundant and as I said the Isle of Dogs by and large is not a wealthy area of London. So should I have been penalised because of my outsider status, despite my experience in call centre work? It could be claimed that I stole someone else’s job, just like anyone else who works in any British big city but does not live there.
Local jobs for local people sounds fine, until you actually think what it means. In the end it does not matter where someone lives, the best qualified and experienced person should get the job. Again I am not saying Total’s handling of this matter is correct, but part of this dispute as levelled by the strikers is that people in the local area should get preferential treatment, even if those local people are not the best qualified to do the job, all I am saying is that the matter is not that clear cut.
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Ah nuts! Mightychewster put the point across better than I did!
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289#
Thanks Laugh, I'm touched by that. :-)
Not tapped (no guffawing at the back there!), but touched.
A-W:
Flattery gets you absolutely everywhere. Lessons identified and learned ;-)
Munich, Munich, Munich.....:
If only you'd lift those class prejudice scales from your eyes... No-one is saying that the globalisers arent climbing the greasy pole and less fortunate people get trod on and I dont dispute for a second about what you are saying about the old banking families... But that rampant class prejudice undermines what you're saying. Theres always going to be ruthless people who will always, step on others to climb the greasy pole. Its got nothing to do with class and everything to do with naked ambition and egotism.
Their political allegances and the history of their birth are irrelevant. You see it everywhere. The Private sector, the public sector, politics, policing, the Armed Forces; you cant escape it. They will cosy upto whichever political power they figure will help them to get what they want. Rampant egotists are, I would venture, seldom political idealogues.
It also doesnt mean that the Conservative party are all privately educated, silver-spooned, chinless Tarquins. Talk about tarring everyone with the same brush.
Sorry Munich... it just makes your argument look prejudiced, ignorant and possessed by the green eyed monster.
But because I read them, I know by a lot of your other posts that deep down youre neither.
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The reason everyone, particularly on the left, is getting worked up about this issue is because the Labour Party has completely sold out, and no longer represents or cares about its traditional voter base, the so called "hard working families".
How ironic that we have an unelected Labour Lord standing up in the House of Lords, not accountable in the Commons, and siding with employers against British workers in this dispute.
We keep reading on here from our lefty friends about Thatcher and how she destroyed the pits in the 1980s and wrecked whole communities, but those same people are now standing up and defending the rights of Portugese and Italian workers in preference to British workers, at a time when unemployment is 2 million and forecast to rise to 3 million.
What is the Labour Party for if it no longer represents the rights and interests of the ordinary British worker?
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Blair betrayed the country - he said he would serve a full term.
To keep that promise he should have called a general election as his last act in office before stepping down.
However maybe we can aleviate our depression a bit with the 'schedenfreud' of watching the labour government incompetently squirm, panic and lie to try to save themselves, while we can see that these actions only make them sink all the quicker. The disaster that is labour cannot be over soon enough.
Although we are going to hell in a hand-cart maybe we can cheer oursleves a little by throwing stones at the drivers.
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Well said Chewster.
Exactly what I've found from my own experience. Thats the way of the world these days, like it or lump it. I'm currently working away 4 nights a week in Wiltshire, despite living in the SE. You do what you have to do to get on.
Forensic#
Admirable sentiments, but it aint gonna happen. Those days are gone, long long gone.
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#316 Fubar_Saunders
Good :-)
After Laughat's post I was rather bothered that I got you down! And there's enough nonsense around doing that already (judging by the theme of your posts ;-).
This is a secret - and I feel bad - but I let out a laugh at your "Oh, come on bluebore!" etc.
Know you know, I am a spoiled brat ;-)
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311 FORENSIC-DEBATE morning
Its not really as simple as that actually, I really wish it was. I have had to move around for work. The area I come from has no jobs, yes there are small shops and businesses. Believe it, or believe it not, the area was doing well in the Conservative years. During this time there was a push with education and people began to have more of the skills needed for the area. New factories opened, and people began new businesses. Then from 1997 things began to go down again and it has been the same ever since.
Most of my family are scattered all over, and we do not see each other, sometimes for a couple of years. This is very sad for my father who is left alone in the area of his birth. However he would always say he educated his kids for a purpose, not to be left languishing on benefits as most are where he lives.
We will all return home if and when we can.
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317. , yellowbelly1959
What is the Labour Party for if it no longer represents the rights and interests of the ordinary British worker?
==========================
The party is a disgrace. The Labour Lord whom it has placed at his helm represents the perversion of very value this party once stood for. There is a saying people get the leaders they deserve. In G-d's name, or for those who do not believe, in decency's sake, what ever we have done, let's repent!
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281. Lordpatriotpete
(perhaps you are my long lost relative! Hee!)
They are champagne socialists, that's what they are. Lord Mandy would not have got into the government other than via the House of Lords. Crafty too, eh?
I would send them all to the tower for treason.
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THESE STRIKES ARE MADNESS....
....not because they're striking but who they're aiming their strikes at!
Rather than the striker direct their wrath at similarly poorly paid bunch of Italian workers, they should, we should, be focussing on:
- Market fundamentalist politicians who ensure that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer in real terms. The same politicians who insisted that markets work best when they're least regulated (both Labour and Tories).
- The bankers who are using taxpayer's cash to pay themselves bonuses for needing taxpayer's money in the first place.
- British corporations who could be avoiding up to £12bn in tax.
- The super rich who hide their money in offshore tax haven's thus allowing themselves to evade trillions in taxes (they make benefit cheats look like angels).
The strikers, and the country at large, is missing the point - the guys brought in by Total are just workers in the same boat.
It ridiculous!
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Several points:
229 - "The EU will probably not want to trade with someone who turns their back on them" ... "We do not have the links the Swiss do." and
269 - "At least half our trade is done with other EU nations".
That latter statement is a total red-herring. "Trade" is a two way process that consists of buying and selling. In the UK's case most of our trade is carried out internally. As far as external trade with EU nations is concerned, we have a massive deficit. In other words we buy far more from other EU members than we sell to them. Accordingly, if the other EU countries decided not to trade with us they would cutting off their noses to spite their faces.
As far as Switzerland is concerned, a cost/benefit analysis carried out by the government there - the only country ever to undertake this exercise - found that EU membership would cost six times more than the current bilateral agreements they have.
275 - "which of the two main stream parties ... big business". Actually, the answer to that is probably Labour. Over the past few years Labour has pumped £millions into the public services without much in the way of improvement in productivity. To pay for that they have needed the taxes paid by the financial sector. Thus, we have a Faustian pact where some of the worst excesses of socialismmade possible by a government turning a blind eye to the some of the worst excesses of capitalism.
289 - if you want to apportion blame for the debt bonfire you should go back to Clinton and even Carter both of who encouraged financial institutions to provide mortgages to people whose only hope of paying them back was to eventually sell in a housing market continuing on an ever-upward spiral.
301 - does either of the people you mention as gloating over the quality of the opposition have a reputation for providing quality arguments themselves?
As far as the Lindsey situation is concerned, the stupidity of the labour market free-for-all was starkly illustrated by a snippet on the BBC Parliament channel the evening before last. Peter Lilley asked whether, in view of the economic downturn, the government would reduce the number of work permits issued to non-EU nationals. In particular, he asked whether a stop would be put on the issuing of work permits to people who did not have a job to come to but were merely looking for work.
Since, disgracefully, the Business Secretary could not be held to account by the Commons on this one of his minions stuttered an answer to the effect that the points system would deal with this. And pigs might fly!
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The National Institute of Economic and Social Research predicts the banking system could shrink back to the size seen in 2000, and warns the costs of the crisis will leave permanent scars on the UK economy.
It forecast a sharp fall in government revenue 'as a result of the shrinkage of the financial services bubble'.
It added: 'This is equivalent to an increase in the standard rate of income tax of 3p to 4p.'
In 2009 alone, Britain will suffer the steepest economic slump for 60 years, as output falls by 2.7 per cent, according to Niesr.
Ray Barrell, of Niesr, said: 'We will have to wait for this mess to be over in three, four, or five years' time. After that we will be poorer as a nation.
'The government will either have to cut its spending or raise taxes as a result.'
The research comes amid growing worries about the scale of Britain's public debt.
Even excluding liabilities from bailing out the likes of the Royal Bank of Scotland, national debt will soar to 74 per cent of national output by 2013-14, according to Niesr. That is far higher than Treasury predictions of 57 per cent given last year, and amounts to an extraordinary £1.2trillion.
===
IMF, IFS, now the NIESR, so it's just Gordon and Alistair that think we will be out of this recession by July then?
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316#
No, it wasnt you mate, although it reminded me that a) I'd been a bit of a chod and b) Think before you speak.
Added to that my wife isnt well at the moment, I'm stuck 100 miles away, weather is crap and the wireless broadband in the hotel fell over again last night. Munich had built up a head of steam at the time and I... I just couldnt be bothered.
So, I just got the MP3 player out, turned all the lights out and called it a night.
However. Back at work, surrounded by the Civil Service's finest (ahem) and all is a little better.
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Let Carol Thatcher sort this British jobs for British workers out!
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#323 flamepatricia
"I would send them all to the tower for treason."
Along with all the surplus people and foreigners?
(Sorry, couldn't resist! ;-)
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I'm probably on my own here but:
We are all in essence EU workers. Not UK workers (or French, German etc) We are all in the same common labour market and as such all have the same opportunities
I have just as much right to apply for a job in Germany (random example) as a German native. Who gets the job should be down to who is the most capable - not based on geography
The desire for certain labour markets to be used is based on many things. The time was once where British companies were highly valued as suppliers of skills that were readily available and highly qualified. We had a 'can do' attitude. Global companies liked this and used it. This is where Britain got most of it's global presence from
Sadly this is not the case today. Much of our skill base has moved abroad. Apprenticeships are a thing of the past. We place little value on engineering and technology - and we are suffering for it now
We need to get back to those attitudes. We need to up-skill and retrain, we need to place more value on actually being able to get things done! And not on useless paper qualifications (most degrees nowadays are useless in the real world)
In short Britain needs to give itself a kick up the bum!
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To an outsider, the dispute may look rather confusing. However many jobs in some industries, such as maintenance work, have been 'contractorised', often with groups of employees being 'TUPE'd to a new contractor.
This was an uncomfortable thing, but there was little they could do about it.
Custom and practice has been for the contract to be awarded from time to time to another company, who then take on the majority of the same staff (who are trained and qualified in a specialist skill). These staff feel secure because of their knowledge and experience and the protection they get (again) from TUPE by being transferred 'en bloc'.
The new feature here is that work is being tendered for by a foreign contracting firm who choose to bring in their own staff rather than hire people who live on the spot and have all the right qualifications.
These people are then made redundant by a contracting (sic) firm who have lost their income stream and cannot therefore afford generous severence schemes.
The only winners in this case are the Italian government who save a lot of benefit payments! HMG will need to think about this, as it is importing unemployment....
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#327 Fubar_Saunders
"No, it wasnt you mate, although it reminded me that a) I'd been a bit of a chod and b) Think before you speak."
Well, maybe - tho' I ought not to act like your mother!
(And poor you - no wonder flame and Susan are fussing over you! ;-)
btw I wish your wife a speedy recovery.
On the thread, the strikes are merely a reaction of people to being bitten by the economy.
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324. At 10:29am on 04 Feb 2009, extremesense wrote:
THESE STRIKES ARE MADNESS....
....not because they're striking but who they're aiming their strikes at!
Rather than the striker direct their wrath at similarly poorly paid bunch of Italian workers, they should, we should, be focussing on:
The strikers, and the country at large, is missing the point - the guys brought in by Total are just workers in the same boat.
===
I think you will find that the strikers quarrel is with TOTAL and IREM, not the Italian and Portugese workers.
And, they are not all in the same boat, the Italians and Portugese have their own boat in Grimsby Dock!
;-)
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Re 326,
So we are all going back to pre-2000, just about sums GB up.
With one hand he giveth, with the other he completely destroys it all.
Xxxx
ps
British ecconomic disasters for British (Non-foreign) workers.
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Susan,
"Most of my family are scattered all over, and we do not see each other, sometimes for a couple of years. This is very sad for my father who is left alone in the area of his birth. However he would always say he educated his kids for a purpose, not to be left languishing on benefits as most are where he lives."
This is really sad but I know it's the reality for many people in modern times.
I think we underestimate the importance of ther local community. I think it's central to happiness for most of us.
We go off chasing the money and forget about parents and family, and I've done it too, but then the family and social communities break up and what are we left with? Isolated families, lonely old people etc.
I regret leaving my home town and my extended family. My parents didn't criticise but I think, like many of us, I underestimated the value of the extended family and community.
Still, I blame Brown.
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#330 mightychewster
I'm inclinied to agree with the spirit of your post although I think you ignore one key point.... anger.
People in this country are angry with the situation we're in (see post # 324) - angry that globalisation is is heavily slanted towards companies and the super-rich. Unfortunately, they don't actually know that so they go for the lowest common denominator - the similarly exploited, bottom of the pile Italian workers.
Instead of it being Enoch Powell, this time the encouragement to target overseas workers came from a Labour Prime Minister.
Quite dispicable.
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If the NIESR predictions are correct, and I suspect they are probably far more accurate than those we've had from government, taxes will have to rise to pay for the shortcomings in the country's budget.
I doubt that a lot of ordinary people will earn enough money to afford to live here soon. Jobs in my part of the world (and they are few, and far between) are paying just 13,500 for shift work for a 40 hour, 6 day week.
Our politicians have obviously not suffered a reduction in their standards of living, and I can't see government cutting its spending one iota.
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332#
Arguably so... the strikes are, unofficial, as many of the more senior union men seem to keep reminding us. Derek Simpson actually seemed to be talking some sense this morning on Today....
How different to some of the union's agendas of the 70's and 80's. (cue Derek no doubt...)
Its potentially the tip of the iceberg as well. I cant see EDF employing locals on the nuclear power station building programme when that eventually kicks off. Then again, I could be wrong.
It has been badly handled and I cant see what good the ACAS led intervention is going to do, short of setting a precedent for interfering in tendering processes, but we'll have to wait and see the detail of it.
More worrying aspect being how many new converts has the BNP made in the last week or 2?
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#326 yellowbelly
How many times have non government supporters on these posts warned that this wa merely a boom builyt on credit with no real productivity growth?
All of the Gordon Brown boom was just a credit expansion and he used it to fule a massive public sector spending splurge; hand outs for the workshy included.
It's over; their contract with the electorate is inexorably broken as thye have shown to be a total fake. We will sink back down to previous levels of riches without all this leverage and it will be utterly pointless having anewlbaour administration.
Call an election.
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325 dwon
We will have to agree to differ on which of the two main UK parties have / would pursue policies most in tune with Big Business and the global banks. You only need to consider history, or the avowed policies of the two parties, though.
As for the 'Faustian pact you mention', the people highest up in these organisations have spent plenty of time, money and energy ensuring that they personally and their organisations contribute as little as possible in taxation. Not much of a pact, from the ordinary person's point of view. Most of the increased tax revenue 1997-2007 came from the ordinary person as the result of economic growth- through higher wages, more VAT, Stamp Duty etc.
What should the UK govt. have done, told the banks and multinationals to take their money, jobs etc. elsewhere? From a personal point of view, the billions of extra spending on health and education have largely been well spent. Again, you're free to differ on that. I assume you're old enough to remember the NHS during the 80s and 90s.
It's pointless to compare the UK with Switzerland (or with Scandinavian countries as so many on the left seem to want to).
We are a fairly densely-populated, post-industrial island which relies on international trade.
Switzerland has the enormous economic benefit of being the home of a large proportion of the world's tax-dodging money, from our own Lewis Hamilton to I dare say plenty of those bankers we all love. If Germany in particular got serious with the Swiss about money-laundering and tax evasion, you'd soon find that they'd be queueing up to join the EU and the Euro.
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Hi extremesense 324
Do not worry the rich will be leaving the country in droves when the new tax rates begin in 2010. Along with them will go new jobs, innovators and investment. However it will solve the problem you seem to have with them.
We tried all the methods before under Labour to push the rich with tax and all we ended up with was the brain drain. Enough rich people and the jobs that go with them are already leaving the country.
I have an idea why do you not make yourself rich and see how much you want someone to take it away from you. In order to keep people who will not work and a Government who have thrown all you tax money away. This Labour Government has not leant the old lesson, you have to earn money to spend money.
I will upset you further I would like to see a flat rate of tax. Low tax rates both for business and people is the way to a good economy.
As to the strike if you listen they are making precisely that point about the Italian workers being exploited as well.
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#338 Fubar
Beer and sandwiches all round, at No. 10?
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#331 svrsig
It's not new at all for companies to use their own staff on foreign projects. There are many UK companies that contract abroad and use mainly UK staff
There are many other EU countries that also primarily employ their native workers for projects around the world. There's nothing wrong with doing this
The reason this is causing such a stink is because it is being hijacked by the media and far right groups who will use any excuse to spread their message
Unless the contract was not open to tenders from UK based contractors Total have done nothing wrong. IREM is under no obligation to hire local staff to carry out work, they can use who they please
I wish Britain would stop complaining about every little thing. We have become such a nation of whingers. It makes me sad to see the British (who were known for a stiff upper lip) blame everyone and everything around them for any woes
Whatever happend to pride in a job well done? My work ethic is such that I will do anything I can to get the job done. If I can't get it done I make sure I have tried everything possible to do it. We used to move heaven and earth to complete jobs - it just wasn't British to give up!
Nowadays we live in such a blame culture. It all has to be someone elses fault. We have to blame someone for everything and it's a crying shame
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#336 extremesense
You're right to point that out - people are angry. But I think that they are angry for the wrong reasons and at the wrong people
People are angry now because there isn't the work around now that there was say 5 years ago. Would there really have been all this fuss 5 years ago about his? No. Most of the locals would have (probably) been working and earning and been happy. No-one would have cared
It's when the work dries up and times start getting hard that the anger boils up. I think the lack of work is more to do with this than Italians doing it.
People also feel let down by the government. Gordon Brown should never have made the 'British jobs for British workers' pledge. He knew he couldn't keep it, I think this is the main root of the discontent
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#342
What do you want the sandwiches for?
If you have beer, you have all you need!
Beer is the answer.............but I seem to have forgotten the question :~p
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317 yellowbelly
#How ironic that we have an unelected Labour Lord standing up in the House of Lords, not accountable in the Commons, and siding with employers against British workers in this dispute.
Actually he is not siding against British workers , he is supporting the rule of law that benefits all European workers equally'
# but those same people are now standing up and defending the rights of Portugese and Italian workers in preference to British workers,
You miss the point again these people are defending the honour of our agreement and defending the rights of all workers in the EU.
#What is the Labour Party for if it no longer represents the rights and interests of the ordinary British worker?
The labour party represents the rights of all workers in the Eu as agreed by all parties since joining the EU and they don't support your xenophobia
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316 Fubar
Thanks for your response, you are among the most rational of the right-wing hordes on this blog (there, I sound like A-W)
I don't recall mentioning class in my post, and I'm not saying that all Tory supporters are toffs etc. But, it does have to be stated that the vast majority of Tory MPs are, and the overwhelming majority of the Shadow Cabinet are, including DC and 'Collapse'.
In fact, it's a laugh that for the Tories someone like Kenneth Clarke counts as 'blokish', ie. an oik, since he only went to an independent school and Cambridge- he would never have made the Bullingdon. Of course, much as KC is the blokish, respectable face of Conservatism, he did spend many years plugging Big Business in the form of Phillip Morris.
You don't have to be an aristocrat to become closely associated with the megacorps. Nor do I believe that it's only Tories who are inextricably linked with the world of World Domination by global conglomerates and banks. Look at Tony Blair and JP Morgan, for example- though it's clear that his big attraction to them has nothing to do with the UK, but his high PR value in the US and elsewhere.
This is not about class, and not about envy, but about the relatively little that any UK government can do to protect its ordinary citizens from the likes of Total and the banks. We can't shut them out completely, since they form such a large part of the world's economy- not even China is doing that. But, democratic governments can take relatively small measures (such as the minimum wage, unionisation etc.) to ensure that our citizens get only a a mild rogering at the hands of the ruthless sharks who typically run these organisations.
All my post (275) was meant to say is that I cannot understand why so many apparently decent ordinary people on this blog hold the contradcitory opinions that (a) The rights of the ordinary British worker need protecting from Global Capitalism's worst excesses and (b) The job of protecting the ordinary British worker would be better performed by a Conservative administration, contrary to all known evidence from ancient and recent history and indeed contrary to the stated policies of the Tories themselves...
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341. susan
If any of 'the rich' want to leave the UK after a 0.5 % rise in NI and a 5% rise in income tax over 150K per annum then all I can say is good riddance. New business people will emerge in the UK, and maybe they'll appreciate what Britain has to offer a bit more than any deserting pampered spoiled brats who don't want to play with us any more.
If any do leave, I hope they'll never be allowed back. Tax-avoiding fairweather patriots we can do without.
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342#
Oh yes, I remember it well!
340#
Munich, pardon me interceding.. I remember the NHS in the 70s 80s and 90s...
I remember you used to be able to call on a doctor out of hours and weekends.
I dont remember MRSA and CDiff being rampant, killing patients in significant numbers, including my brother in law.
I dont recall having to wait 3-5 days for a non emergency appointment, or for upto 14 days to register with a GP practise.
I also dont remember troops returning from either Gulf War1 or The South Atlantic being treated in anything other than military hospitals or being told they couldnt turn up in uniform for fear of offending anybody else.
I remember when there was a choice between NHS and private dentistry.
I remember the days when cancer drugs were given according to clinical need rather than being allocated on a postcode basis or on whether a pen-pusher decided on whether spending that amount of money on keeping your wife, husband, mother, father or whoever alive for another 3 to 6 months was really worth it, or whether that money would be better spent elsewhere. Like paying agency staff hyper inflated market rates because a significant amount of the permanent staff had defected to the private sector.
I dont remember the NHS spending nigh on half a million pounds on a yacht to "help youngsters make better lifestyle choices".
It cuts both ways; the NHS is a badly managed bottomless pit, which will eat every single note of every single denomination you care to throw at it. Yes, it is staffed by (at the frontline anyway) people who consistently go the extra mile, who work their socks off and get precious little thanks for it, particularly from the Saturday night drunks.
But lets not pretend that it is perfect and thanks to Tony "24hrs to save the NHS" Blair that we have inherited a Tier 1, world class service. The rest of the world has caught up. Ask anyone who has been a health tourist recently. Ask anyone who has received medical attention in either Cyprus or a major Indian city. Or even Cuba, of all places.
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"British Election for British Workers ! "
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#338 Fubar_Saunders
Sounds very true. I pity the sane people.
"More worrying aspect being how many new converts has the BNP made in the last week or 2?"
Yep, that's the stink of it. (I wonder how much though will it be to England's cost.)
#342 yellowbelly1959
#345 mightychewster
At least you hint at a celebration ;-)
(The sandwiches are to aid the beer, although I had no sandwiches only beer last night :-\) I'm off for a nap.
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#346 "he is supporting the rule of law"
Would this be the same rule of Law he "supported "when he got found out over his dodgy mortgage ? "
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Hello # 31 Susan-Croft
"Do not worry the rich will be leaving the country in droves when the new tax rates begin in 2010. Along with them will go new jobs, innovators and investment. However it will solve the problem you seem to have with them".
I think you miss my point, Susan, the very rich who evade paying trillions of pounds have technically left the country as they hide the money in tax havens. Also, I don't have a problem with the very rich (I have been classed in that bracket myself), however, I would categorise tax evaders in a different bracket.
I'm not quite sure where you get your evidence of the brain drain and a way of quantifying both then and now puzzles me - perhaps you could enlighten me.
Your next point.... I think I have answered that, and to make it quite clear, I see paying tax as my civil duty.
I also support the welfare state which includes helping people back to work.
As to your opinion upsetting me? No, we just have different opinions and that, to me, is essential in healthy democracy (although I'm beginning to think our democracy is looking pretty green about the gills).
I'm sure that we agree on one point.... we're both keen to see the back of New Labour or is that a little presumptuous.
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Can somebody please explain why the contractors went to the not inconsiderable expense of transporting and housing expat workers? Was it for practical reasons i.e. project documentation is all in Italian, for skills i.e. the UK workers were not to the same standard, for economic reasons UK workers were not prepared to work for the wages or for some other reason.
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Quote:
"During Tuesday's demonstration outside the Lindsey plant strike committee member Phil Whitehurst said they were convinced of their case.
"People have said it's racist. It's not. We're not part of the BNP. I've shunned the BNP away from here," he said.
"It's about British workers getting access to a British construction site." "
---------------------------------
NOT about xenophobia, Italian workers in Itally should have exactly the same opportunity to work on Italian contracts in Italy as other EU workers. Likewise the home nation's workers in every state.
That is NOT happening here. I find it appalling for the left to refer to the language of xenophobia to attack workers who are fighting AGAINST discrimination, rather than in favour of it.
I cannot believe that the founders of the Labour party (contrary to grands assertion) would be pleased to see British workers on the dole to protect the rights of other workers from abroad.
And since the Laval case, there is NO protection for the income of workers, as any employer can import staff from a lower paying EU country and pay them at the level of the income from that country.
In other words, there is NO SUCH THING as a minimum wage for employers to pay their employees. Under EU law, it is legal to discriminate against British workers and bring in Latvian workers on 50p per hour. That is the ramification of the Laval case.
It would still be illegal for British employers to pay less than the British minimum wage to British workers, but NOT to overseas workers from a state with no minimum wage. So our own domestic laws on a minimum wage price our own workers out of a job!
And Grand thinks this is fair rights for EU workers?
Grand, you cannot believe that throwing our workers on the scrapheap as a sacrifice to the EU so that we can be good little Europeans, is a good thing?
Who is standing up FOR our British workers in the EU Grand? Who? It is NOT labour, nor the unions, nor the EU.
This is not about xenophobia as the protester's dismissal of the BNP from the site shows.
At least the tories promise a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, and hopefully they will re-negotiate our membership of the EU, and failing that, pull us out of the decrepit, despotic, dictatorship altogether.
Grand, can you point to one area that this inept labour Government have got right? And I mean in reality, on THIS planet? Not using labour's own false and made up statistics that is, or even independent statistics that have been collated from falsified raw data given by the Government?
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#346 grandantidote
first of all you accused me of being a liar in espect of Frank Field's comments regarding employment and refused to give an unreserved apology, and now you accuse me of xenophobia on no basis whatsoever.
You should be careful of what you accuse people of.
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Mr Robinson,
The NIESR has just let a wild cat out of the bag: the worst growth forecast since the second world war will not surprise many, but perhaps in a spare second you can try ask Darling, Brown and Mandy whether they agree with the NIESR's debt-to-GDP ratio forecast of 70% by 2012 (excluding the costs for bank bail outs), rather than the 57% from that famous economic troika.
Oh yes, the European Commission forecasts a debt/GDP ratio of 72% by 2010 year end (but I guess that this forecast includes help for crunched banks - maybe someting you can look into)
Regards
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So we are in a depression then G. Brown told us so in PMQs.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"276 oldnat
Why should it make any difference to ans (employed) grandantidote, whether he lost his job to a "foreigner", or the guy next door - unless he was a xenophobic idiot, which clearly he isn't."
No he is worse than a xenophobic idiot. He is a labour supporter who welcomes policies that sell out the working classes whilst denying the negative effects of these policies in delusional admiration for the worst UK administration for 80 years.
And lets STOP with the false and deliberately misleading term xenophobia when relating to these protests. They are NOT xenophobic.
IF the British workers had been even allowed to compete for these jobs, then maybe the term could apply, but they were not. They (and tens of thousands of others all over the country) have been actively discriminated against.
If there is one thing worse than xenophobia, it is inverted xenophobia coming from the labour party and it's inverted racist followers who happily seem to support replacing British Labour with Foreign labour on the grounds of race and being a "good European".
It is, frankly, sickening to see the party of political correctness, who (actually) have done a lot to address overt anti-black racism, go on television and rant contemptuously against British workers and then smear them as xenophobic.
I hate to see discrimination in ALL forms.
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#348 Munich
You're right about the tax increases. A 5% tax increase on the wealthier won't harm anyone
The UK has one of the lowest tax rates in the EU, people don't realise it though. Where I am at the moment the base rate is 40% and quickly slides up the scale to 60%
The truly wealthy people know this and won't leave because of it. They might leave if it became too high, but I don't think that a few percent will hurt. It's about proportion of income that matters, people will complain 'till the cows come home about tax here but in reality and compare to just about any other EU country the UK is low
The problem with a lot of our taxes is that they aren't in the income tax bracket - they are stealth taxes, this is what people object too (in my humble opinion anyway)
Regarding conservatives and public schools etc - I just don't see the problem. I don't care where anybody went to school. I couldn't give the proverbial rats xxxx who was in what club and who's Daddy did what. It's just not important - why focus on it?
If they can do the job - let them get on with it. So many people want to drag 'class' into the argument. I don't consider class as having anything to with where you went to school......but I digress and don't want to be modded for going 'off topic' !!
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# 344 mightychewster
Yes, you're right - most people are happy in good times. Therefore, when Gordon Brown uses Enoch Powell-type rhetoric and doesn't follow through, at-risk workers get upset.
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Just watched the Daily Politics. The piece with Fredrick Forsyth graphically illustrated the disconnect between all politicians and the general public. Talk about snouts in the trough. You had both Labour and Tory establishment members saying that assigning responsibility to the bankers was "populist" and would not achieve anything.
Oh yes and a Labour minister saying that the major shareholder in some of the banks (ie. the government) should not cap executive pay because in the long run it would be damaging. Hello, that lot brought the bank to near bankruptcy. What are you talking about?!
Nice to see the Labour back-sliding on the "British Jobs for British Workers". How can we believe anything they say when they cannot be straight with us on something as simple as this?
They are clearly out of touch and not fit for purpose. Can we have our money back please?
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MunichMadrid 7980
If any of 'the rich' want to leave the UK after a 0.5 % rise in NI and a 5% rise in income tax over 150K per annum then all I can say is good riddance. New business people will emerge in the UK, and maybe they'll appreciate what Britain has to offer a bit more than any deserting pampered spoiled brats who don't want to play with us any more.
I will go along with that if you explain to me how it works. Just were are these businesses going to come from. With Government so in debt that it cannot afford anything let alone our Public Sector, where are these jobs going to come from. Also if you explain to me why when Labour tried this before it did not work and it had to be reversed, because of the brain drain. Why are people who have worked hard to get into a position which is comfortable spoiled brats as you put it.
However when the new taxes come in it will be no were near be enough money to touch Government debt, so I hope you are prepared to pay a lot more tax as well if you work .
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Yet another disgraceful display in the commons from PMQ by Brown. Nothing but memetics, spin, back-tracking, and issue-avoiding. I seriously don't know why we even both with it any more.
If I see him use the words "Do nothing" once more whilst keeping a straight (albeit morose) face I think I may just scream until I lose my voice.
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272 yellow belly
#"If you are right and I will accept that you are
Then I apologise unreservedly
Now would you like me to get down on my knees to apologise to you for not believin that Frank Field made those remarks, you made your point I accepted it and apologised.
You then bellyached later that I had not apologized, so I brought the post back up to prove to you. but that wasn't good enough for you so you tried to embarress me, Now old chap I dont suffer fools gladly and I am bored with your so called sensitivity, you have had a apology now try to be a man I now it's difficult for you but try to accept it. Twice is OK knowing you tories find decency hard to understand three times isn't going to happen.
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347#
Fair play Munich, I cant and wont dispute a lot of what you said.
A good percentage of it is likely to fall into the "Anybody But Gordon" camp. I honestly, considered myself to be not so much apolitical, but very much a "you're all as bad as each other/vote for none of the above" floating voter during the majority of Blair's tenure. Suspicious as the Iraq and Afghan campaigns were, considering my livelihood is based around providing support for "our boys", I could hardly complain too loud.
Economically, although not completely ignorant, I didnt know as much as I do now about matters such as securitisation, Fractional Reserve Banking and all that stuff... I made a point to educate myself about it so I could make up my own mind. A significant part of the population do not take the active interest in politics that they should so that they can make an informed decision as to where their vote should be cast.
In both your points a) and b) I have no disagreement. Point a) is what Labour should have done and if Blair's recent mutterings are to be beleived, they were aware of the danger, but didnt take necessary decisive action, for fear of chasing the financial services cash cow away. Funnily enough, akin to blowing up a balloon, blowing more and more air in, knowing it'll go bang at some point, but not yet... not just yet.. just a bit more... a bit more... to have access to the information, to be able to see the signs, to know what needed to be done (referring back to a speech Gordon made in 96/97 calling for a better world wide regulatory framework), but then doing nothing about it... sorry, but to me, thats a deriliction of duty. How many of us would have settled for less conspicuous consumption and easy credit if it had meant whilst the rest of the world were going into meltdown that at least our sovereign wealth funds could have been reasonably healthy like Norway for instance?
Point b), deep down, although leaning to centre right, I agree. I'm not convinced they are ready. Gordon has effectively got drunk on getting into and staying in power and promptly pi$$ed in the punchbowl for the PLP for at least 1 possibly two or more parliamentary terms. All the things, all the "time for a change/things can only get better/Tory sleaze - we'll be whiter than white" have been tarnished, possibly beyond immediate repair. Hence, the Anybody But Gordon stance.
I'm yet to be convinced by Cameron. Osborne is an electoral liability, I'm afraid. Most of the rest of the shadow front bench apart from William "15 Pints a day & Natty line in modern headwear" Hague and Clark... I wouldnt know them if I fell over them. They havent engaged with me. Will they be any better? Who knows? Can they be any worse? Arguably not. How much worse can you make a generation of debt?
But ultimately its down to us. This generation of politicians do what they do, because we let them. We need to demand more of them, higher standards, greater openness and transparency et al. Until we get angry enough to remind them that they are their to serve us, their constituents, not a lot is going to change.
A plague on both their houses, if I may say so.
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#348 MunichMadrid7980
"If any of 'the rich' want to leave the UK after a 0.5 % rise in NI and a 5% rise in income tax over 150K per annum then all I can say is good riddance. New business people will emerge in the UK, and maybe they'll appreciate what Britain has to offer a bit more than any deserting pampered spoiled brats who don't want to play with us any more.
If any do leave, I hope they'll never be allowed back. Tax-avoiding fairweather patriots we can do without."
Firstly, it's possibly the final straw for some individuals and corporations. NICs have been increased before, personal allowances have raised tax by fiscal drag, non-dom tax charge, increase in CGT, increased administration etc.
Secondly, NICs hit the employer too. As did the 1% increase introduced previously, and also the expansion of the main rate thresholds.
Thirdly, we're not worried about "the rich". We're worried about "the rich employers". Their jobs will go abroad with them and their capital. You won't have to argue over "British jobs for British workers" any more.
Fourthly, new business people will emerge in the UK. But the capital won't and they will be financed from abroad. Watch the corporation tax disappear overseas. The UKs CFCs regime will not stand up under EU legislation.
Fifthly, said business people will appreciate what a sucky place the UK has become for business people and aspire to leave as soon as they can.
Finally, we could do with tax-avoiding fair weather patriots. It may not suit your ideals, but it's true.
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Well we heard it from the horses mouth at PMQs didn't we? This country is in a Depression. Another Save the World slip or did he really mean it?
This government has done all it can to
Demote the family
Demote Christianity
Take away the rights of the British worker
Promote workers to the public sector so they can control them in their jobs for life
Make an unholy unprecedented mess for the Conservatives when they get in.
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340
I think you will find that RBS alone paid over a massive amount in corporation tax. That has now been lost.
"you'd soon find that they'd be queueing up to join the EU and the Euro
That assumes the EU, and particularly, the euro will survive. If you can take the blinkers off and take a wider view you might like to look at some of the views that are coming from non-EU commentators - Associated Press for example
Let me quote:-
"For some of the countries on the periphery of the 16 member euro currency zone - Greece, Ireland, Italy, Portugal and Spain - this debt-fired dream of endless consumption has turned into the rudest of nightmares, raising the risk that a euro country may be forced to declare bankruptcy or abandon the currency".
And from a leading analyst: "Adjustment in the overvalued euro economies [Italy grossly, Spain moderately] will be much more painful, and Italy's possible exit from the euro augurs for years of crisis."
By way of further evidence Greece, Spain and Portugal have already had their credit ratings downgraded.
At the very least we are in for interesting times. I for one woulodn't be betting the euro will still be around, at least in its current form, ten years from now.
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Well, I come from Latvia and I came to England few years ago to work, now I run my own business and that makes me employer to 9 differnt people... English and other foreign...
I will never discriminate them to nationality, sex or colour of the skin!
You want a job, come to me, show me better CV than other candidates and you have a job!!!
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Sleep well A-W :-)