What will make the difference?
The question worrying everyone is what will make the difference. So says one government insider about the late night and long weekend meetings that have been taking place about how to get the economy moving again or, more specifically, how to get credit moving.
One part of that is the plan likely to be announced on Wednesday for the government to underwrite up to £20bn worth of bank loans to small and medium size businesses. It's a version of what the Tories call their national loan guarantee scheme.
Another part of what's being discussed still is the idea of creating a "bad bank". That was the Swedish solution for dealing with so-called toxic assets. In other words a special institution is created in order to absorb all the riskiest loans and therefore remove some of the anxiety that banks have about what may lay hidden in their balance sheets.
A third aspect is so-called quantitative easing - in other words, what we used to call the printing of money. Today Gordon Brown meets the man known in America as "Helicopter Ben". He's the chairman of the Federal Reserve, Ben Bernanke, who wrote a paper saying that in circumstances like the ones we're now living in it could make sense to in effect drop money from the air on the electorate simply to get them spending again and to avoid deflation. 
There is another way in which the government may try to revive the economy, which is another fiscal stimulus. All eyes are on Berlin today where Chancellor Angela Merkel's coalition government will unveil its own 50 billion euro stimulus - this after a long and fevered debate about what the German finance minister had dubbed "crass Keynesianism".
All of these options remain very firmly on the table as ministers try to answer that question: what on earth will make the difference?
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
Nick,
Another day, another idea stolen from the "Do nothing Tories".
Unlike yesterday, will the BBC TV News be giving the Conservatives credit for intially calling for a national loan guarantee scheme. Or will Gordon, once more get all the credit..?
Complain about this comment
Why cannot HMG accept that there is no short term simple solution? People have borrowed too much, the whole country has borrowed too much and now we have to pay it back. This mania about getting people spending is totally misplaced, all it does is make the problem worse as then at the end of the day people will have to pay even more back.
What will make a difference is actions to help people pay off debt and making savings attractive so that people can buy things from their savings. Then and only then will there be a sustainable recovery but unfortunately we are years away from that point.
Complain about this comment
So, no inane, wasteful, doomed-to-fail, across the board VAT cut for Germany.
Lucky them!
Complain about this comment
Part one idea stolen from the tories and was shouted down by the government 4 months ago as no good.
Part two stolen from the Swedes and Brown talked the USA out of doing this 6 months ago and saved the world by advocating doing it his way
Part three idea last attempted by a Labour government which resulted in hyperinflation and a trip to the IMF
Part four Another fiscal stimulus because the first was ill advised and didnt work and is only recommended by the G20 IF YOU CAN AFFOR IT, and we cant afford it.
OK clearly this government are out of ideas can they now please call an election and get out of governance.
Complain about this comment
So if the government are going to borrow Tory ideas does that mean they are going to just "do nothing"? As after all that is the accusation they have been throwing at the Conservatives!
This does seem to be the second Tory idea they have borrowed in as many days?
The government seems to attack Tory and Lib Dem ideas (and in the Tories case accuse them of doing nothing!) and then when there own ideas fail they borrow the ideas of the other parties to implement as well!
It is better to do nothing then do something stupid - sadly we have a PM that doesn't seem to understand that!
Complain about this comment
Why is it that the Government are only now considering measures that the Tories announced 2 months ago?
And Nick, shouldn't you be asking the Chancellor, that's Alistair Darling by the way, not Gordon Brown, what the real borrowing requirement is now likely to be as his PBR forecast that we would see growth in 5 months time (and counting) was either hopelessly optimistic or plainly fraudulent?
Complain about this comment
//what will make a difference?//
a new government, i reckon.
Complain about this comment
Another "jam tomorrow" type approach then?
Are we to understand that the Treasury actually knows what is going on?
Will we have a U-turn on previous policies?
Where is the detail?
Who will it actually help?
Come on, you do it to the Tories...why not the government
Is the news of tomorrow embargoed?
Did you meet the insider on the Thames?
Complain about this comment
The only thing that will make a difference to me, is having some disposable income.
As soon as I get some disposable income, I promise to dispose of it in the shops...
But I will not be borrowing any money to finance my spending. If I haven't got it, I won't be spending it...
The politicians have therefore got to get me back into work.
Which means dragging me out of the trap of having no contact with the DWP because I can't claim benefits and am living off capital...
I think there's at least a million people who are out of work and not claiming benefits at the moment, completely lost to the the processes that help people get back into work...
Complain about this comment
This is an interesting and crucial point ... what will make a difference.
Almost certainly, there is no magic bullet.
In my opinion, Governments, especially Governments operating from a position of fiscal weakness, have very limited options.
All they can do is try to block any systemic collapse, as indeed the UK Government has just about managed to do (so far).
I think that the economic outlook will continue to deteriorate in the short term, that is the next year or so, and then will begin to recover in the UK.
This is a storm of sorts and ordinary folk, which is my only concern, are advised to hunker down, in all its forms, until people feel it has passed.
Then, confidence returns.
Complain about this comment
There is one thing that will get the economy moving and that is credit.
Anyone listening to the boss of JCB on the Today programme will understand that industry needs credit to function, without that we will end up on job seekers allowance and the economy will grind to a halt
Forget all the silly schemes that are being drawn up, just adopt Conservative ideas and get moving.
Complain about this comment
It is clear that whatever Risk Management reporting has taken place by the financial institutions and passed to the B of E, FSA and the Treasury has been inadequate. From an IT perspective it is a doddle to create a simple table detailing the loan book against various measures such as credit worthiness, industry type etc.
There were a whole stack of write downs made last year and the year before that. For RBS its subsidiary had made a USD 3.5 bn loan to an Amercan chemical firm that has gone bust. It looks like the whole loan will be written off. In the FTSE index leading financials are being hammered again.
Until we are able to identify debt categorised by its toxicity, the markets are liable to have little confidence in the financials. Perhaps we should suspend trading in these companies until that confidence returns and the toxic stuff ringfenced.
Otherwise the authorities will always be on the back foot, even if the authorities were actually competent. Sadly this is not the case. the actions taken so far are more notable for the soundbites rather than the substance and technical detail.
I strongly suspect that the German stimulus package will be a quite boring read with little panache. But it will be packed with detail. Oh, and it will probably have a better chance of succeeding than anything that the chumps in Downing Street could ever come up with.
Complain about this comment
If the truth be known, there's nothing that's going to work - we just have to take the medicine. We all went to an orgy and now we've all got syphilis.
Gordon the Golem wants to throw good money we don't have after bad money we didn't have. Where will it all end?
Complain about this comment
Does anyone else get the impression that all these "great minds" haven't really got a clue what to do?
Economists (of the academic sort) fall back on a rigid adherence to a narrow interpretation of Keynes. If/when that doesn't work, where will they turn? There's nothing else in the "manual".
(Meanwhile the non-academic economists are either living off the proceeds of the good times, or considering ways to profit from these times).
The Bank of England Monetary Policy Committee have as much as admitted that they never saw the bus coming.
Hubris prevents from politicians admitting to their "mistakes", which usually leads to a compounding of those mistakes.
Several years ago I said (not here) that George Bush would probably be remembered as the worst president the USA ever had, for the effect his policies would have on the US economy.
To avoid a similar label, perhaps Gordon Brown might like to consider an early exit from Parliament so that he can "spin" a more favourable account of his time in office, before history judges him on his performance and vanity.
In the meantime, perhaps we need a real Mr Micawber to explain the link between income and happiness...
Complain about this comment
Hi Nick,
I do not think we can put too much faith in what Ben Bernanke has to say. In unprecedented times, the best he can do - definitively - is guess.
And let's not forget that Hank Paulson not long ago admitted to Congress that he was wrong in how he thought banking systems should operate.
See you in the pub.
Complain about this comment
Another balanced blog from the BBC
Happy Days.
Someone on yesterdays blog said that the Gov changed the law on publishing the amount of money they're Quantative Easing / printing into the economy. A law that dates back to Robert Peel. This can only because they want to cover up their printing.
Helicopter Ben will be here to tell us to print and borrow. But he is in no situation to tell anyone. The average family of four in America is associated with $732,000 of debt and that is before the TARP and Stimulus packages.
The PBR figures are looking more and more stupid.
Spending is set to rise greatly even on PBR figures we would have 1 Trillion pounds of debt.
And we can say that in reality it will grow far more than the 1 Tril pounds figures, as the recession will run far longer than July this year.
Also our GDP will fall off a cliff over the next 2 years.
Greatly reduced income from the financial industry.
The building and associated industries are on their knees.
Service industries are being battered.
What will the % of Debt to GDP turn out to be?
It will look terrible to our foreign investors.
Complain about this comment
Nick, has HMG given all the promised capital funding to the banks yet? How much capital will it need to give to a bad bank?
Complain about this comment
The people need cheering up, then theyll spend more.
They need an election.
Complain about this comment
What will make a difference?
A different government!
Complain about this comment
Watch a few episodes of Foyles War. Great leveller for thinkers!
Seriously, I can't help but think, nay I am CONVINCED this whole economic crisis was conived and is a huge dangerous feat of engineering by Brown, Bush with the old American pm's shouting "go on" from the wings.
That said, there IS a problem which I was horrified to observe over the last eleven or so years where people's behaviour, spending, greed was spiralling out of control. That was compounded by the banks allowing but BUT surely this government has socialogists or whatever and could have monitored the trends and slowed it down BEFORE we got to this frightening, insecure problem across - ostensibly - the world?
I am no economist, I have no solution.
The human spirit (like the human body) is almost far stronger and far more able to withstand the trauma and terrors thrown at it than one can imagine.
Maybe if we can get Brown out now it will resolve. He does seem to be the perpetrator in most people's books. If he prints money and if he wholly nationalises banks and the world follows well, then, the banks will be in charge of the world and that is all part of his desire. Headstrong is not the word for it.
Do we just hold onto the sides, scream and hope the roller coaster eventually docks successfully without casualties? People are falling over the side already....!!!
Je ne sais pas. I really don't.
Complain about this comment
What can make a difference? A return to a cost-plus market, releasing the air from the bubble. The entire system's been based on an exponential percentage-plus system, so like Alice in Wonderland, businesses have been forced to run faster and faster just to stay in the same place.
That means true competition enforced by proper regulation by industry outsiders.
Complain about this comment
4 Pot kettle
Bang on.... I'd go further though............
Labour would help us all (even themselves) if they gave up their ambition to govern the country.
They have ruined the nations finances (again) and have demonstrated that they have no idea how to escape the economic mess (again).
With respect policy areas (outside finance and the economy), they have some nice ideas, but completely fail to understand how to deliver, or create services which represent value for money.
Labour should re-invent itself as a 'pressure group' or 'think tank'. They have shown that they can't govern or manage anything (other than an election winning and PR machine).
Labour would do us all a favour if they restricted themselves to inspiring policy ideas and avoided management altogether.
We need an election to ensure labour's removal ASAP.
Complain about this comment
Yes I do, well I think I do. What if the other countries dissent to Brown's Master Plan? Germany is throwing a wobbly.
Complain about this comment
Its time for governments to face facts:
There is nothing they can do to reverse this, the inflationary debt bubble is too huge, it cannot be sustained and we will suffer a massive global revaluation before things get better.
You can see its too big for governments to handle: its like watching rabbits caught in truck headlights as they fruitlessley hop from policy to policy until the juggernaught hits them.
The ONLY policies that governments should be adopting is ones that cut expenditure and then divert all funds they have to supporting those citizens worst affected by the crisis and to open up avenues for wealth creation.
I've used the word depression before and people need to see it as that big a problem now and not wait for official figures to declare it before deciding what to do.
We need to be investing in cheap accomodation (if necessary converting empty factories into housing), we need to stop importing energy and start putting money into cheap local energy (a quick fix would be to start using coal again) even if it is dirty energy (we can't afford the luxury of Kyoto) or investing in projects like tidal barrages. If neccessary cutting out the middle man and employing workers directly, rather than through profit-taking (usually foreign-owned) corporations.
Then we need to decide on what exactly this country is going to do to create wealth. What can we make and sell that the world wants? We need to get back to the basics: we need to make and export goods, certainly not trying to make money from moving other people's money around.
Complain about this comment
Hey guys - I think I know where Derek Barking is today! He is speaking right now on LBC to James O'Brien. He is, could he be, no, yes I THINK HE IS DEREK HATTON!
www.lbc.co.uk
click on Listen Live
Complain about this comment
Why is it necessary to have to back up small business lending? I thought we owned some of these banks now, shouldn't we be pushing them about a bit?
Complain about this comment
Another policy stolen from the tories, is anyone keeping a count? I see that the tory lead in the polls has increased as well. At last it seems the great mass of the proles are finally waking up to the fact that their ten year boom was all done on the national credit card, and that far from investing in infrastructure (power stations, prisons, etc) the labour government has frittered all the money away for little benefit; on social engineering projects and suffocating bureaucracy.
Gordon continues to fiddle the figures as UK PLC burns around him.
Complain about this comment
Not more than a week ago, the Labour minister was on Newsnight saying this would not work!
It should work, and the cost needs to be passed on to the banks, not the consumer. The cost of underwriting this should be minimal, as it is the risk of default and the banks should be lending to quite strict criteria. It should not be indefinite, but it should be for a bit more than £20 billion to make a difference. The scramble to get this will be ridiculous. It will cost about 5% max to underwrite, and should be paid for by a premium from the interest rate charged. With interest rates so low that should not make a huge difference to business.
So well done Labour for coming up with something that was already suggesting but making a bodge job of it!
Complain about this comment
Back in the mid-Seventies when the situation in Northern Ireland was well out of control I was introduced by a UDA supporter to an interesting verb, namely. `to throstle'. The context was that the British government could not find any solution so the ministers moved about trying to create an impression of focus and energy.
This is a fair description as to where we are now on the economy. The government feels it has to do something, hasn't a clue what to do but thinks it needs to create an image of focus and action. Hence the false accusation that the Tories are a `do-nothing' party.
This government has completely lost it. For me the VAT reduction was the last straw that exposed them as people with absolutely no idea as to the nature of the problem, what caused it and the options available to miitigate the worst affects.
It is now self-evident that we need a new government. Only a Hamas government could be worse than this one.
Complain about this comment
WILL IT MAKE A DIFFERENCE??
GORDY OUT WILL!!!!
Complain about this comment
At some point, people have to start spending if there is to be any recovery. Only then will firms be able to ramp up production and employment. It HAS to start with Joe Public, so why is so much effort presently directed into frightening JP into NOT spending, but hanging on to cash?
Whatever one thinks of GB, at least he's trying to DO something, even if its in part to save his skin!
Why do so many stand outside the tent P***ing in, as Pres Lyndon Johson would have it, instead of mucking in and trying to help? When you're in the merde, it's no use arguing about how you got there, but how best to get out!
Complain about this comment
Make money valuable again - that is the only way to make a difference.
At present money is worthless in the very real sense that having it provides no income and borrowing it is essentially free.
What greater 'moral hazard' can there be?
Along wit the raising of VAT at the end of the year the BOE should announce that interest rates will return to 5 to 7 percent.
This pre-announcement will let savers plan to continue spending and prevent borrowers over-borrowing as well as providing much needed liquidity to the whole economy.
Complain about this comment
Helicopter Ben, eh?
Instead of dropping money, why don't they drop gift vouchers?
If the problem is getting people to spend, why don't they get something that you can't squirrel away and earn interest on?
Put an expiry date on them and that should be fine.
You can save money too by using voucher codes or cashback websites. That'd save the Government 5% or so. Maybe Argos would do a bit of a deal on a bulk-buy, you never know...
I like the idea of having a "bad bank" too. Could we get Clint Eastwood or Harvey Keitel to run it?
Complain about this comment
"Bad" banks.
So how long before "Septic Bank" becomes interchangeable with "Septic Tank" in Cockney rhyming slang?
After all, it was the "septics" wot done it.
Complain about this comment
Come on Nick. There's next to nothing the crazies in New Labour can do. What's even more worrying is knowing that there is next to nothing that they won't do to stop their slide into political oblivion. In other words they'll keep on squandering public money to try to save their political necks. Good old Gordon and his merry band of woodentops'll throw us all on the scrap-heap just to save their skins. They've destroyed our pensions, destroyed our NHS, destroyed our policing, destroyed our manufacturing base, destroyed our transport infrastructure etc. etc., and now they're looking to finish the job: they're destroying our economy.
Complain about this comment
Whilst it probably wouldn't 'fix' it, a change in Goverment would be a first very useful 'step in the right direction'.
Question For Nick: Did you see Jeff Randall yesterday?
Complain about this comment
Portcullisgate
I have asked if anyone has seen the projected government figures for public sector pensions. These seem to have disappeared off the face of the earth. If the figures have to be disguised, then we can only assume that the amount of spending is far, far worse than the government are letting on.
Extremely worrying.
Complain about this comment
Rare words of wisdom from the Golem: "A downturn is no time to slow down investment".
No, Golem, the time to slow down government investment, is during an upturn. That's how Keynes works - in the good times the government saves, in bad times it spends. The problem is, of course, that the Golem had "eliminated boom and bust" so there'd never be bad times again, thus there was no need for the government to ever stop spending.
Now, we're all paying the price for the Golem's hubris. Nemesis is at the gates.
Complain about this comment
If something is in short supply then the price should rise. Thus demand for credit should cause interest rates to raise and thus a price is established where the interest is worth the additional risk of a time like now. However the BoE has distorted the behaviour of the market with its 1.5% interest.
The problem is that existing loans that have to be renegotiated because most lending deals these days are short term. Also politically it is unacceptable to increase voters Mortgage payment.
Thus the medicine which could be applied by a government with 5 years to go will never be applied by one with a year and a half left on the clock.
The eventual solution of the market is to allow asset prices to fall to the point where assets will effectively guarantee loans and justify the low rates.
No matter how you play it there will always be a payback but it is the duration and who gets hit which is the nature of the game Brown is playing.
Quantative easing means the Government spends without it appearing on a balance sheet. There will be 2 areas to which this is address.
1. Removal of toxic debt from the banks - effectively a huge subsidy for the banking industry
2. Massive public spend.
The outcome of this will be highly unpredictable but again Brown will gamble because he is only interested in power not the good of the nation but then again show me a politican who isnt.
Complain about this comment
#18 Carrots
You said, the people need cheering up, then theyll spend more. They need an election.
Quite right. I think the election of a Conservative Government (if necessary supported by the LibDems) would improve the confidence and morale of the country, and we would all feel more confident to both spend more and take longer-term investment decisions. At the moment most of us are worried what half-baked neo-socialist scam Gordon is going to serve up next, and know we need to lock up our wallets in readiness to pay for it. And as we all know, Gordon's priority is keeping the Tories out, not saving the economy.
I'm sure academic economists have studied the link between political trust and economic confidence. Confidence and trust is at rock-bottom, and even the remaining Labour supporters are running scared.
Complain about this comment
The Results of Quantative Easing might be a period of calm and stability during which Brown can hold his election.
What can be guaranteed is that we will have 70s style rampant inflation back again and wages and saving not keeping pace with inflation will pay the debt back.
There is the possibility of a real run on the pound and financial meltdown could result but to Brown that's an Acceptable result.
The Gangsta's motto applies to him.
"Get rich quick or die tryin' "
Complain about this comment
#24 Delphius
I just posted this one on the blog from yesterday...
A cut in spending would appear to be on the cards....
...............................................................
#369
Strange you mention that (yeah I know I was supposed to take a day off - but I knew Nick was going to blog again...something is in the air)..
Anyway - I was going to post this yesterday...this may answer some of your questions:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/12/it_contract_review/
El reg are usually spot on with analysis - I sincerely hope this happens...
Complain about this comment
Upon reflection, there is something that would make a huge difference in the long run ... a return to honesty.
Honesty in Government ... for example, merging Income Tax and NI into a single tax would be an act of honesty about that particular taxation policy.
Honesty in Business ... for example, Nicks heading to this piece gives a clue '... may lay hidden in their balance sheets ...' obviously nothing should be 'hidden' in balance sheets.
Nevertheless, I sadly do not see 'honesty' making a comeback anytime soon in either Government or Business circles.
Complain about this comment
Nick, a word , we STILL call "quantitative easing" the printing of money even if you dont.
Complain about this comment
@10 JohnConstable
Nice to read someone speaking sense.
Also nice because it was free of mud slinging, party bias and name calling.
Complain about this comment
Forgive me, but isn't managing the country's economy what we pay these people vastly inflated salaries for?
Gordon was Chancellor of the Exchequer for 10 years. A self-professed world statesman at the very tip of the pile in Britain's financial world. It was his job to know exactly what the money was doing around the world at any given time.
America started to feel the pinch as far back as 2005. Gordon made no provisions and did nothing. Things got worse in 2006. Gordon still did nothing.
Gordon did absolutely nothing. Zip. Zilch. He left it until it was too late. It IS his fault. It was his job to manage the country's accounts and he didn't. Whatever makes him think he can get us out of this? He should be sacked - today!
Labour - the DID nothing party.
Complain about this comment
#27
You have a valid point that no-one seems to have picked up on...
Energy - it has been well reported that we will be facing a energy crisis soon...
Just what have the Govt done over the past 11 years to invest in that - during the supposed boom years - with record tax takes..
Where has all the money gone? On stupid and idiotic pet social engineering schemes...you think we are up the swanney now...!!
Complain about this comment
Nick,
your comments on this would be appreciated.
as the banks are doing nothing, can the BOE not stand up to the plate and take some radical action
1. Take over all Mortgages in the UK and offer every mortgage holder a tracker of 2%
2. Can the Bank of England not offer all Savers with over £5000 a minimum of 4% return and stop all the money going abroad buying different currency
I appreciate the cost of this will be a lot, but so will the cost of unemployment and repossessions, I can only see the way out of it is to put money back in people pockets and get them spending, as the consequences of people not spending is disaster
thanks
zak4444
Complain about this comment
Hi Nick...Considering Germany's fiscal stimulus announcement..are you going to start a blog on that subject?
Please note that the key points seem to be ..
No VAT reduction.
A 100M Euro business loan guarantee.
Reduction in health care contributions.
Does this seem to be a slap in the face for our own Governments World saving efforts?
Complain about this comment
18. At 12:31pm on 13 Jan 2009, CarrotsneedaQUANGO2 wrote:
The people need cheering up, then they'll spend more.
They need an election.
= = = = = = = = = = =
Quite correct 'Carrots', and the USA have just had one!
They'll start to cheer up in a few months, maybe.
Gordy will hope to hang in there until that effect ripples around the world.
Then he'll confirm his role as global saviour, and we'll get an election when he thinks it safe to put his head on the ballot box.
To amend Nick's phrase from yesterday:
"Not the economy! It's politics, STUPID!"
Complain about this comment
I think the first steps to recovery should be Gordo standing up in the House and admitting
"MY NAME IS GORDON BROWN AND I AM A SPENDAHOLIC "
Come on now Gordo find the courage within you and repeat after me " Lord grant me the serenity ....."
Complain about this comment
Of course I meant 100Billion Euro business loan guarantee scheme..sorry.
Complain about this comment
2. At 11:44am on 13 Jan 2009, agc3167 wrote:
Why cannot HMG accept that there is no short term simple solution?
It's simple, because they allowed it to happen under there noses and they also knew the personal debt was mounting.
The government has become a rogue trader throwing good money after bad.
There is no short term solution to this and the consequences of this ridiculous level of borrowing will burden our kids with a lifetime of tax debt.
People out there who believed Brown was careful with our coffers (prudent) have been lied to all along.
Complain about this comment
It's only when you open the bag that you realise Gordon hasn't brought anything to the party. Just two empty bottles and a couple of bricks.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
What will make a difference? May I suggest to start by picking one's advisers carefully.
Imagine a group of people who haven't mastered their subject. Now imagine these same people being awarded great riches, honours and prizes. Even Nobel Prizes! Imagine even that although they are reliably and consistently wrong they are eagerly pursued for their council. Hard to believe eh? The English language has already coined a name for this group. They are called Economists.
Complain about this comment
'What will make a difference' will be newlabour, and more particularly Gordon Brown, admitting that they got us into this mess.
If you decide to ignore all the signs that the economy is overheating from excessive bank leverage to historic multiples of house prices to earnings you will pay the price. It is senseless to protest that these factors emerged and made us better palced to wahter the downturn; with PFI added into govenrment debt (as most of it should be) we were uniquely badly placed to weather the storm.
There are signs that the BBC steam roller tactic about supporting government policy until proved otherwise is running low on gas. This is art the revelation that the real figures (and not the ones newlabour choose to present) are truly, adysmally bad.
There is noly so long one can go on defending a governemnt that has made so many blatant strategic and financial errors. Eventually - as an be seen on these posts - the general public screams back with approbation, that you are willfully misrepresenting the facts.
This is where we have arrived. The BBC has worked out it is backing the losing ticket at the next election and nees to start giving the whole view; that's not a pretty picture.
Newlabours record of consistently ignoring all the warning signs will keep them out of office for two decades.
So, call an election; let's get this thing over with.
Complain about this comment
26#
Indeed we should Chris, as we own part of them.
Only problem is....
we're picking up the share options no one else wants to buy to save these chumps from collapse.... what we are not doing at the moment is putting people onto the boards of these banks, so they are just carrying on in their own sweet way with no penalty, no-one watching over their shoulder, no reason to change strategy.
And, the new Quango that is meant to be running the publics interests in these banks... isnt ready yet. No rulebook, no Terms Of Reference, no nothing. Probably recruiting from the same Civil Service redeployment pool that gave us the FSA. When they do finally recruit them, the usual civil service mentality of "dont do or say anything that will make you stand out or attract attention" will pervade and nothing will get done, decisions will get fudged and we'll be no further forward but will have had our collective pockets picked for billions.
As I've said before, its not so much the idea sometimes, its the half ar$ed implementation of an idea that is the killer.
Complain about this comment
Sounds more like we don't know what to do and we don't want to make things worse by doing the wrong thing.
That doesn't instill confidence in anyone.
It's a fast downward slope and no one will really know what's happened until it finally reaches the bottom.
That still seems a long way off.
The sooner it does the better so all these manouvres to prolong the agony should be
knocked on the head.
Good entrepreneurs can always start up new businesses when the time is right.
The world economy will go on shrinking but how much no one knows.
All this country can do is tighten its belt and wait to see where it will end up.
At last someone has woken up to the fact that the Tories do have some good ideas.
How long it will take this government to implement them or whether they've left it too late only time will tell.
Complain about this comment
What will work? Good question.
I know what won't work - Continuing with the policies that got us into these dire straits in the first place, like living off borrowed money as a state and as individuals. I mean, who in their right mind would think that the way to get out of a recession caused by borrowing too much, is to borrow even more. Ridiculous! Could never happen here! Don't know why I mentioned it....
Complain about this comment
Nick,
At 11:43 I posted the following question: "Will the BBC TV News be giving the Conservatives credit for intially calling for a national loan guarantee scheme? Or will Gordon, once more get all the credit..?"
I've just watched the 1 O'Clock and surprise, surprise, Gordon got all the credit. No mention of the Tories calling for a national loan guarantee scheme since November. Indeed, not only were opposition spokesman not asked to comment on the GVN's plans, the opposition parties were not even mentioned. Instead, Robert Preston was invited on to praise Mr. Brown's economic genius for coming up with such a great plan... Balance (I think not!)
By comparison, ITV news invited both George Osborne and Vince Cable to comment on the GVN's plans. Just why are the editorial standards at the BBC falling so low?
Complain about this comment
So Gordon Brown is meeting "Helicopter Ben", a man who once advocated dropping money on the electorate (to the strains of "Ride of the Valkyries", naturally).
Didn't a certain son of the Austrian, Herr Schicklgruber* once have a similar idea - except that he saw that as a means to destabilise the wartime UK economy?
(*I'm sure he would also have appreciated the Wagnerian connection.)
Strange bedfellows indeed.
Complain about this comment
40. johnharris66
Just to expand on that in one particular direction.
If we get Brown for another term we know we will get higher taxation and further increases in public spending, and almost certainly a period of VAT at 20 percent.
So am I running to the high street to buy discounted white goods and clothes I dont need or am I saving for that rainy day.
Oh what to do!
Cameron on the other hand would at least slow the process.
Complain about this comment
And heres another very good reason why we need to end cheap credit
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article5508201.ece
Complain about this comment
#49 dontneedthegrief
So they've copied Gordon then. No, don't try to think. The means of implication is irrelevant.
Just remember Gordon Brown invented the concept of fiscal stimuli and unless I'm very much mistaken, this is one of them.
Basically, everyone is copying Gordon Brown's response to the first global crisis of the global age that started in America.
Why? Because it is the right thing to do.
That's all you need to know, now move on.
Complain about this comment
I'm with the majority - a general election will make a difference.
Gordon doesn't know what to do -- that is why he keeps making anouncements on the hoof (pretending they were planned) and then there have to be quick panicked meetings to actually work out what the announcement actually means all with out any consideration of due diligence.
Mandleson can apparantly pluck vast amounts of money out of thin air - http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23618111-details/So+how+did+Mandy+buy+his+%C2%A32.5+million+Regency+villa/article.do maybe he should be asked how he does it...
ps. Any update on mandleson/oleg ?? I am starting to wonder if you are ever going to get around to it...
Complain about this comment
#43 John Constable
Spot on.
The root of our problems is not economic, it's moral.
Complain about this comment
I think 'Stoop Down Gordon' could learn something from 'Helicopter Ben'.... instead bowing to the CBI and adopting ridiculously wasteful, ineffective policies like cutting VAT why not just give us the cash to spend?
As for the taxpayer stepping-in for the banks that we've just showered with money, I think that's absurd. THE BANKS MUST BE FORCED TO LEND.
Gordon et al must stop cowering before the rich and powerful - I know they're looking for jobs al a Tony after politics but surely they've given enough of our money.
Complain about this comment
20 flamepatricia
"I am no economist, I have no solution."
Sadly, neither do the economists.
Complain about this comment
What would make a difference is an instant stop to all of Gordon’s gimmick, headline grabbing, policy announcements that have not been thought through and cost us all money.
It is now clear to all that he could only manage the economy (in the loosest possible terms) in the good times and never had the ability to run the country at any time.
Labour are now devoid of ideas and running the country into the ground. Let us have an election; it seems the campaigns have already started anyway!
Complain about this comment
Uh oh looks like NuLab need to get themselves a new mantra to 'Do Nothing Tories' if they're gonna steal their ideas every 5 minutes.
Or at least it would be nice if that silly hysterical person Yvette Cooper stops with the 'economical madness' tosh.
What will make a difference? How about a party that doesn't spray cash at the bloated unproductive public sector. Great Britain needs it's confidence back and that requires a clean slate. It requires Labour to relinquish power *now*.
Complain about this comment
#47, yes indeed, what about the forthcoming energy crisis?
Strangely, 'Stoop Down Gord' is silent about that - perhaps he's pondering a suitable world-saving measure. I guess watch this space (Nick Robinson will surely be onto it).
Complain about this comment
A general election and a change of government is the only thing that will restore confidence. Brown and Darling have proved over the last few months that they are totally bereft of ideas , totally lacking in integrity and more interested in hanging on to power than in overcoming the country's problems; problems in the main caused by the excessive spending and lack of fiscal control of this incompetent government. A Tory election win would produce an immediate rise in confidence in the stock market and in the financial sector.
Complain about this comment
Germany's recession will most likely damage living standards less than than the UK's because Germany has a skills base that helps its competitiveness and german households were not spending all their disposable income.
The latter point is also crucial to understand that bank lending, although necessary but perhaps not as locked up as the government makes it out to be, will not help prevent the UK's drop in GDP. The situation in 2006, beginning of 2007 in the UK did not represent an equilibrium. UK households spent more than they got with their pay cheque after tax, while companies were gearing up and the government ran a budget deficit.
2 interesting weblinks that make you wonder whether it is worth the risk to let the debt explode:
Bernanke in his helicopter speech said that monetary easing might not work when balance sheets are impaired (as they are in the UK) as he looked at Japan's experience
http://www.federalreserve.gov/boardDocs/speeches/2002/20021121/default.htm
Krugman said that fiscal stimulus only works under some assumptions "that are at the very least rather speculative."
http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/trioshrt.html
Complain about this comment
Nick,
the easiest way to get spending going is for the Government to make short term loans available at reasonable rates through one of their numerous "white elephants" (i.e. regional agencies,) providing that money was spent entirely and quickly for useful purposes.
Banks are simply not making loans available EVEN to perfectly sound business (with a long track record) like mine.
We wanted to make some alterations and improvements to our business and we thought it may be a good idea to apply for a loan rather than using our savings. Our bank asks for 10% interest (plus absurd setting up charges) exactly as we paid 10 years ago. Other banks we consulted advised us to stay with our bank as they couldn't match its conditions!
Needless to say that in this uncertain economic climate we will not spend a few thousands Pounds of our savings for the time being.
Another area the Government hasn't considered is the business rates which is now clearly another political fund. They collect thousands of Pounds in the better off areas to redistribute them in the areas with the greatest number of Labour electors. I am still hopeful that they will eventually see the obvious because according to what Robert Peston said on the news the Government now has only two more ideas to try and if they don't work they will be doomed! Unless of course the Conservatives and Vince Cable come to his rescue :-) I think we all know by now why the Government and their loudspeakers like Derek & friends on this blog keep on asking the opposition parties to make their policies known :-)
Complain about this comment
shellingout
37
Portcullisgate
I have asked if anyone has seen the projected government figures for public sector pensions. These seem to have disappeared off the face of the earth. If the figures have to be disguised, then we can only assume that the amount of spending is far, far worse than the government are letting on.
Extremely worrying.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Shellingout
This is the single most important question.
What are projections for Government Debt & LIABILITES (including pensions). And can we sell and service that amount of debt.
These idiots 3 months ago said we will have growth starting in July in six months time!!!!!!!.
The % gap between Debt and GDP which is falling off a cliff will be enormous
If they are continuing their spending based on such stupidity how can we trust them to do the right thing from now on.
Every forecast I've ever heard in their budgets have been wrong.
They cant even see 3 months ahead clearly.
God help us one and all
I would also add we cannot guide any meassures properly until we know where it is needed.
We have no idea what the figures are for expendable income across the salary bands.
There is no use trying to get people to spend if they have no expendable income.
Complain about this comment
Please, for the love of God, make it no longer being 'all things on the table', but decisive action to get credit moving again. This has been going on for almost 12 months and finally there is a stolen conservative policy to guarantee borrowings. The cost of this should wash its own face by the consumer. It should not cost 10%, and the cost should be met by the bank/consumer. It is a blank cheque to nothing, just assurance that bad debt will be covered, however all normal collateral requirements will be in place so there should be a buffer for any lender/the coverage. It is a simple accounting practice to cover the debt, but there should be no money transfer until someone defaults. Simple! Please can we have someone intelligent rather than Mandy thinking this through.
Complain about this comment
Sgt Digby @64...
"The means of implication is irrelevant.
Just remember Gordon Brown invented the concept of fiscal stimuli and unless I'm very much mistaken, this is one of them.
Basically, everyone is copying Gordon Brown's response to the first global crisis of the global age that started in America."
If the means is irrevelant,please tell me ,Sir,why ours hasn't worked?
..and if you really believe that Brown invented the concept of fiscal stimuli,could you explain why Keynes,and others, were promoting the idea before Gordy was born?
Somewhat blinkered methinks.
Complain about this comment
Anybody else noted the subtle spin in the headline to this article on the B BC website?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7826552.stm
In the article Ben Bernanke is quoted as saying that the stimulus 'could' help the economy - importantly different to the headline.
Complain about this comment
#64 Sargeant Digby
So they've copied Gordon then. No, don't try to think. The means of implication is irrelevant.
Just remember Gordon Brown invented the concept of fiscal stimuli and unless I'm very much mistaken, this is one of them.
Basically, everyone is copying Gordon Brown's response to the first global crisis of the global age that started in America.
------------------------------------------------------
You've completely missed the point here - Germany have deliberately limited their 'fiscal stimuli' to areas that they can afford (following their previous years of financial prudence - remember that phrase?) and are considered more likely to work.
They haven't followed Gordon's approach of half baked measures.
And as for Gordon inventing the concept of fiscal stimulus, I thought he had been incorrecctly claiming he was following Keynesian economics for the past 3 months - conveniently ignoring the part about building up reserves in the good times in order to be able to stimulate the economy in this way.
Complain about this comment
I was speaking to some Americans today about how they see things,and it was interesting to note that even though they were not Obama supporters they feel that a regime change will have the confidence boost needed to get America moving no matter what his policies are.
But of course in this country we would call him inexperienced !!!
I am one who agrees with my American friends and only regime change will bring about a new confidence,i don't particularly care who.....we just need shot of the old.
Complain about this comment
#77 dontneedthegrief
Apologies, I should have littered some of these ;-) badboys throughout my previous post.
Don't know exactly what they mean, but if they indicate a bit of tongue-in-cheekedness, then that's what I was aiming for.
I thought the blaming America bit was more-or-less the same thing. No worries.
Complain about this comment
75 PortcullisGate
"There is no use trying to get people to spend if they have no expendable income."
Very true and I'd like to throw into the discussion something I heard on Radio 4, I think, last week. Unfortunately, was only half listening to programme so can't give any more context, but it got me thinking. The speaker said that the reason borrowing exploded in (I think) the US was because middle income earners didn't have sufficient increases in earnings, so they had to borrow.
Thinking about the situation here, it was pretty similar: income increases were low because of low inflation, but the cost of essentials like heating, travel to work, food increased by more than inflation and HMG compounded the problem via stealth taxes. A colleague said, some years ago, that a bit of inflation, say 5% is necessary to keep things going. What do others think?
Complain about this comment
78 CockedDice
I'm surprised they didn't go with the trick of adding a question mark. E.g.
"Obama Plan Would Lift Economy?"
Or, taken a bit further:
"Gordon Brown's economic recovery plan proves successful?"
You're allowed to write any old toss, as long as you put a question mark after it?
Complain about this comment
#64 SergeantDigby.
You wrote that Gordon Brown invented the concept of fiscal stimuli and the world is following him.
A fiscal stimulus dates back to Keynes; but on the more substantial point you will find this analysis by the Managing Director of the IMF on its website:
Some countries have already introduced temporary decreases in VAT… The degree of pass through is uncertain AND ITS UNWINDING MAY CONTRIBUTE TO A FURTHER DOWNTURN (my capitals). It is also questionable whether decreases in the VAT of a few percentage points are salient enough to lead consumers to shift the timing of their purchases.
The IMF goes on to praise the approach of other European countries. This is about as cricitical of the UK as it is possible for an international organisation to be of one of its own members.
So please can we have no more lectures on how the world is following Gordon Brown. If the IMF is not recommending his example I don't think anyone else will.
I contend that Gordon Brown acted early for political reasons. He wanted to be seen as saviour of the world and didn't mind what he did as long as he did something.
Complain about this comment
Sgt Digby...
OK ;-)
Complain about this comment
Not much point going up to drop money on the electorate when you haven't saved enough to fuel the helicopter.
Or is this a first glimpse of Gordon's policy in electoral marginals?
Complain about this comment
75 Portcullisgate
Government pension liabilities must run into billions and billions of pounds.
If you take into account the number of civil servants, teachers, doctors, etc., etc., etc., - and that's not counting our MP's (whose pensions are cast-iron, jewel-encrusted and water-tight) this is phenominal amount of money to have to find on top of everything else. The number of people actually claiming public sector pensions must run into hundreds of thousands. Even if you just take into account the people who are going to retire next year it will place an awful financial burden onto the state - never mind those who have already retired and are collecting their pensions.
I understand that there is no 'saved amount' for pensions already being paid out, and pensions are currently paid out from taxes raised every month. The fact that the figures are not easily available is nothing short of scandalous.
I pray that a hungry journalist will pick up on this. I'm 99% sure Government are hiding the figures because they would lose the next election for sure if the public knew exactly how much money was involved.
Complain about this comment
dontneedthegrief and cockeddice
Does this mean that there are people on here who genuinely say stuff like that?
Poor idiots.
Anyway, sorry for riling you unnecessarily.
Complain about this comment
#81 Sgt Digby
Apologies for not getting the irony in your posts either - maybe I'm missing it in Nick's blog reports as well!
Complain about this comment
johnharris66
I apologise to you also. Sarcasm does not transcend the internet indeed.
Complain about this comment
Lowest form of wit and all that.
Complain about this comment
I agree with the common sentiment that a new government will help boost confidence - it will in the USA where Obama is a popular choice, this will feed through to the markets and consumer confidence in time
The problem we have is that no political party stands head and shoulders above the rest. Labour has to go, whilst they can't be held entirely responsible for the global problems they are entirely to blame for not preventing the damage here in the UK, regulations were in place to do this but they were ignored by the FSA etc
We still need house prices to drop by another 20/30% I reckon; this will certainly get the housing market moving again. Mortgages are available in plentiful supply - but on responsible levels now (3.5x salary) and a reasonable deposit is required - just like it always used to be when banks were sensible in their lending. House builders will start up again and money will start moving around the markets again
We need to let this thing bottom out and not try to prop up the bubble any longer. There are people out there with lots of cash but they are not confident the market has hit bottom yet (i'm not talking about financial markets here) Traditionaly property has been a safe market with good returns over time - but it hasn't dropped enough yet.
When the price of a house comes down to 3.4 or 4 times your salary things will improve; construction is always the first to the wall and the first on its feet again
We need a fresh look from a different perspective and only a change of government can do that now - regrdless of who gets in (it doesn't make any difference anyway)
Complain about this comment
I've got a feeling that Wednesday's announcement will be like all of Gordon Brown's Budgets, a good initial reception then read from the back to see the small print.
It would however be an excellent time to update the country and the world on the latest forecast for the government deficit. Will it be into the 100bn yet, I suspect so after all the squandering of the last couple of months.
Complain about this comment
25% or 27% of council tax was used for local authority pension schemes already a few years ago.
Guess where that % will go now that house prices have fallen and council tax revenues will be lower.
Complain about this comment
Now that we're all a happy family again..Sgt Digby/CockedDice/JohnHarris... ;-p
Can we have that blog on the German response,please Nick?
Complain about this comment
Too be quiet honest we just have to bide our time.
One of the guests on today`s Daily Politics Show explained in quite simple terms that the economic cycle is rather like a clock and what this Govt is trying to do is to move the hands forward. Instead of being at 3 o`clock they are trying to move the hands forwards to nine o`clock - which is an impossible task. The economic cycle like time will move forward at is own pace.
This country has been allowed to over indulge in borrowing, to which Gordon Brown turned a blind eye as things were going so well for him. People had never had it so good and as long as they were happy he felt loved.
Unfortunately all good things come to an end and now it`s pay back time.
Personally I think enough of our future wealth has been spent propping up the economy and it should now be left to sort itself out.
Yes there will be great pain. Already there have been many more job losses than the Govt has admitted to. Many were part timers who, because of the hours they worked, won`t show up on the unemployment register as they will be unable to claim the dole. Many more are foreign workers who have gone home.
Politicians have never been successful at running businesses. You only have to look at the waste there is the public sector and the massive overspends on govt projects - many of which are binned as they don`t work. Ministers would not survive for one minute in the real world.
My penneth for what`s it worth is that enough has already been spent in propping the banks up - now is the time to take a step back and let it sort itself out.
At the end of the day the country will be all the better for it. All this will serve as a salutary lesson, and not before time, for our financial institutions, borrowers and businesses.
It was only a matter of time for many businesses before they went belly up as they were badly run and to blame everything on the recession is plainly wrong.
Like everything with our 24/7 media everything is gloom and doom; because every story is disected in minute detail and rerun throughout the day at 15 minute intervals. Perhaps if we switched the tv off and took a more postive out look on life then we might get out of this mess sooner rather than later.
The Govt would also do well to shut up. Gordon Brown clearly does not know what to do next and is flondering about looking for the next headline. His policies were the main cause of the problem in the UK and now HE is the problem. He is not in control of the ship and the best thing he could do for the country is to fall on his sword and leave. That Nick is the way out of the recession. Get rid of the Govt. Have a clean start with a team who are not tainted by this unwholly mess and let, "nature," take its course.
Complain about this comment
@94
House price changes dont change relative council tax band levels the council tax revenues will not be falling even on recently sold properties.
You can dispute your band due to the purchase price but you will be banded with similar properties that have already had their relative banding set.
Once a band E always a band E unless you live in wales where all properties went up a band or two unfairly.
Complain about this comment
Changing the government is not the answer, however attractive it might sound. We have a political system which relies heavily on ' the passing of the buck' which will result in the blame being put on the Tories if they should make it to office after the next election. Throwing borrowed money which has to paid back onto already borrowed money which has to be paid back is simply extending the problem, and it seems to be the strategy of this government. So whatever we do, the next party in office will be perceived as the bad guys, unless GB wins it( which I pray is not the case). The damage is done, there is more pain to come, and he must be aware of the pathetic excuse for a PBR which serves no-one. A change of government may be welcome, but in this climate, I fear we will just blame whoever takes over. Nothing new there then!!
Complain about this comment
97 potkettle
I successfully got my council tax banding reduced. It wasn't easy and was time-consuming, but I just took their leaflet and picked it apart.
It can be done.
Complain about this comment
#75 portcullis
The answer to your questions is obvious...
Haven't you noticed the change in the line of attack of the tories since the begining of the year?
Siance last week the tories have had access to the treasury's real numbers ahead of a potential general election.
The tories now know how truly desperate the state of the economy is but are bound by electoral practice not to use the information with caution.
What they know, however, is that come an election for real they can reveal the true degree of mismangement once and for all, including the grossly inflated pubic sector pension deficit.
So, for the time being, they go on the attack with all this spending has to stop because come a general election they can explain in detail just what a mess these goons have left us in.
Why do you think there has recently been an airing of Lowd Howe's remarks upon becoming chancellor in 1979? 'It was not a question of whether we should borrow more money, it was a question of if we would be able to'...
This remark and its resufacing tells all...the national accounts are in a truly disasterous state and Gordon Brown has nothing better to do than run around the country launching smoke screen intitaitives and hold time and moeny wasting summits.
Call an election
Complain about this comment
@99 Shelling
I know it can be done but you are the exception that proves the rule as they say.
I considered challenging mine last year until I realised the one property that was banded lower only had one garage internal to the property and I had two.
Complain about this comment
Pot Kettle
If it's of any help - I went down the road of the house values in 1991. I had to hunt around to find estate agents who were still trading, but with the aid of a #5 bottle of wine, one came up trumps with hard evidence and the council could not argue with it.
The people at the council were sarcastic and rude, to say the least. It took ages to get them to do anything and by the time they reduced it, over a year had passed since they first banded us. I think they were hoping we'd just get fed up and pay it. Fat chance!
Complain about this comment
96#
Well said Sir!
Complain about this comment
My growing alarm is that everything being announced is very short term. By nature I am a bit of a futurist and am very interested in global trends that are likely to happen within the next few decades. One of the things I read recently is the US Government’s own opinion of what could happen by 2015, taking into consideration the American tendency to believe they will almost be top dog it makes interesting and potentially, for the UK, depressing reading.
I am sorry to upset the most ardent anti-capitalist out there but this is not the end of Capitalism, though it may be the beginning of the end of Western Capitalism. Frm the US report and elsewhere I see 3 crunch points coming up:
1 – Aging population across the board, settled Western societies are seeing their birth rates below the vital 2.1, that is that on average a fertile woman will produce 2 (actually just over) children. Under that rate the population begins to contract, this has already happened in Japan and most of Europe, including Russia. Even China is reaching crisis point and if nothing is changed their rate will fall below 2.1 within the next decade. Good thing for an over populated world, but it does mean a greater percentage of the population will be reaching an age where they become a drain on the economy.
2 – Peak oil, from most of what I have read I do not believe we have reached that point yet. Logically, however, we will and soon within the next 20 years. The resulting energy crisis will devastate those that have not made preparations, that’s ignores the damage caused to anyone using plastics. We are already with Russia seeing the forerunners of future conflicts. Putin (okay Gazprom under instruction) is using hammer heavy handed tactics regarding supposedly unpaid bills, holding the majority of Europe to ransom.
3 – Failing water resources, China and the US are already seeing the first signs that their industry and population base has exceeded the environments ability to supply them with water. This will only get worse, especially since the only place in the world that will continue to see continued (and probably rampant) population growth is sub Saharan Africa. This area is already scarce of water, this will only get worse one or two really bad years of draught and watch Africa explode.
So okay the current situation is not great but things could get a lot worse in the reasonably near future. Everything I have read is freely available, indeed some of it comes from the US Government, so I fail to see how saddling us with 5-10 years of addition debt is a good thing. I want the parties to not only say how they will resolve the current down turn but how they will limit the much bigger ones on the horizon.
Complain about this comment
A substantial reduction in the cost of central and local government .
A huge proportion of GNP is now taken by taxation of one form or another or as legally mandated "added cost" activities such as house buyer packs and certification of one sort or another that actually little discretionary money is left in the hands of the general public for them to spend or as funds for investment in productive capacityby business's.
This taxation is then spent grossly inefficiently. Its hard to find a single government project (planes,ships, weapons, olympics, government buildings0 that has not been vastly over budget, late and often not up to standard. No individual, business nor government can squander money so inefficiently and there not be consequences. The latest lunacy of Gordons "money go round" approach is to increase the tax business's pay if they employ staff and then employing more bureacrats to give it back again to incentivise employment! There are just loads of his policies which are little more than paying one group of bureacrats to raise taxes to dig holes, employing people to dig the holes and employing yet another group of bureaucrats to employ further people to fill them in again!
We thus now have a large and expensive bureaucracy, with gold plated pensions that have been destroyed by GB's policies for those in non government jobs, dedicated to snooping, micromanaging and parasitising the relatively few people who produce anything that is actually of sustainable value. Until we substantially shift the scale and control of expenditure away from this profligate and incompetent government back into the hands of those who can use it productively and efficiently the economy has no chance of a sustainable and real recovery.
Complain about this comment
Sgt Digby...
don't worry sarge - I was right behind you...sniggering.
Keep it up!
Complain about this comment
96. At 3:05pm on 13 Jan 2009, briangare wrote:
Too be quiet honest we just have to bide our time.
...This country has been allowed to over indulge in borrowing, to which Gordon Brown turned a blind eye as things were going so well for him. People had never had it so good and as long as they were happy he felt loved.
===
Like it! "to which Gordon Brown turned a blind eye"
The one-eyed son of the manse.
did you intend the pun?
Complain about this comment
If we commence quantitative easing
(sounds like a bodily function) from where will we get the helicopters? Aren't they all in Afghanistan? If not, why not?
A fiscal stimulus would be nice but shouldn't we see how the first fiscal stimulus worked before we have another one.
This is a government in a panic and they will try and say anything that makes them look as if they are in control.
These measures will help some people for a while until it is allowed to collapse in the long grass in favour of the next initiative.
Perhaps we need a fiscal stimulus to build the helicopters so we can have quantitative easing.
Complain about this comment
Labour have been banging on about Camerons poor performance on the Andrew Marr show on Sunday
Judge for yourself:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00gmkpz/
Move the slide to half way for the interview.
Complain about this comment
Most of the information given to us and much of what we know is open to conjecture, point of view, and grains of salt the size of golf balls
Complain about this comment
107#
if he did.... it's a good 'un.
Explains a few things as well!
Complain about this comment
The idea was being mooted on the wireless today: Mandy may have the gravitas to become PM!
Yikes.
Complain about this comment
In the UK's current circumstances 'Quantitative Easing' is no more that economic snake oil.
It is a wasteful and desperate measure by a shell-shocked and useless government who want to be seen to 'do something' - with other people's money and our children's future.
For both business and individuals 'market sentiment' is at rock bottom. No one is going to go on a pointless spending spree - no matter how many Labour drones screech that it is 'our patriotic duty' to support Brown's scandalous and wasteful policies.
(I guess posting this comment I am guilty of 'talking down Britain' - and liable to arrest by the NuLab stasi...).
Only two things will improve market sentiment:
1. The resignation of this discredited government.
2. Serious cuts in public expenditure. (Real cuts - no a 'reduction in the rate of spending).
I can hear thousands of public sector workers screaming already. Good. Those that do an essential and necessary job (teachers, nurses, dustmen, etc.) needn't worry. 'Diversity Officers'; 'Climate Change Managers', NHS 'managers' and suchlike might want to start thinking about obtaining the credentials to do a real job.
Complain about this comment
I know what will make a difference..This!
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/GoToCountryNow/
Just in case you are thinking it, It's not my petition but come on give this some support. Last count was 528 signatures which is pathetic.
Look, Imagine Gordon Brown rubbing his hands with glee, his big cheesy grin and his puffed up arrogance at knowing so few have signed it....that should do it.
Complain about this comment
Maybe we should wipe the slates clean. Keep a few chickens and a goat. Make our own clothes and trade in beans.
Sorry, a bit flippant of me.
Complain about this comment
We need a government of national unity - Vince Cable as Chancellor, David Cameron as PM - Mandelson, Brown, Darling and the rest of the Nu-Labour dimwits thrown out on their ears - with a restraining order forbidding them to go near any public office for teh next 30 years (about as long as it will take to clear the mountain of debt these prats have left us)
Complain about this comment
Imagine you ran a private enterprise and your customer base, as determined by the number of your registered 'loyalty customers' shrank to a miniscule number.
You would rapidly go out-of-business.
But not if you are a political party, somehow despite your 'loyalty customer' base shrinking to a tiny fraction of what it was a couple of decades ago, you continue to function and indeed even form Governments.
People who are interested in markets might suggest that this indicates a severe market malfunction.
Somehow the existing players e.g. political parties, are defying the financial gravity that would drag down a conventional business which lost large numbers of its customers.
Apart from a colossal amount of inertia in the political system, there must be a suspicion that the existing players are somehow colluding to exclude new players in this 'market'.
To our detrement, we do appear to have a political market malfunction.
Complain about this comment
What a total load of absolute TOSH.
Here's a plan for GORDY, disclose to the electorate the reality of intelligently controlled UFO's encrouching our airspace with such apparant ease. t
Complain about this comment
48. At 1:15pm on 13 Jan 2009, zak4444 wrote:
Moral hazard?
What about people who had a inkling that this was on it's way and hunkered down a few years back - no massive mortgage, no credit card debt, no 4x4, no three overseas holidays every year, no 6 buy to let properties 'for my pension'.
Give me one reason why the thrifty should pay for the greedy.
Complain about this comment
Regarding the speech given today at the LSE by the Federal Reserve Chairman, and having read the reports on the BBC and The Times websites.
A question:
Were two speeches delivered?
It is the only possible explanation for the differing reports that I can see! Factual reporting for the BBC seems quite difficult these days.
Complain about this comment
What a total load of absolute TOSH. iF gordy WANTS TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE CALL AN ELECTION ALREADY.
Its sad to see this exhuasted power crazed Godvernment cling on to power like they know they will never get it ever again, pretending they are doing the best for the country when we can all see its all about MEMEME.
Here's a plan for GORDY, disclose to the electorate the reality of intelligently controlled UFO's encrouching our airspace with such apparant ease - IT WILL CUASE A DIVERSION FROM YOUR FAILING POLICIES AT LEAST FOR A GOOD WEEK.
Complain about this comment
It is a shame that "derekbarker" has neither the moral backbone nor the courage of his convictions to come on here and accept that Labour are stealing Conservative ideas mooted months ago.
Back then, when the Tories proposed them, Barker referred to Cameron as a novice with bad ideas, and called them the "Do Nothing" party.
Would he like to come on and explain the volte-face performed by the party he idolises so much?
Thought not.....how cowardly.
Complain about this comment
'I contend that Gordon Brown acted early for political reasons. He wanted to be seen as saviour of the world and didn't mind what he did as long as he did something'
I contend that Gordon Brown acted early because the UK economy is in the worst shape of all to meet the catastrophic economic problems and therefore had no choice?
See 'Northern Rock', the first bank to fail in this depression
Complain about this comment
108. At 4:22pm on 13 Jan 2009, stanilic wrote:
If we commence quantitative easing
(sounds like a bodily function) from where will we get the helicopters? Aren't they all in Afghanistan? If not, why not?
===
They are being kept in the dry at Boscombe Down, because they don't work properly!
"In what has been described as one of the biggest defense procurement hiccups of recent times, the eight Chinook Mk 3 helicopters have been sitting in storage for years following insurmountable certification problems, mainly associated with their glass cockpit avionics architecture."
===
GBP90 million to reverse-engineer a fleet of chinooks that have been stored, at additional cost, because they never worked properly.
Another waste of money by the MoD!
See the pretty pictures here
http://tiny.cc/chinook
Complain about this comment
I like the way in which negative behaviour is renamed, to give it a disguise of respectability:
Quantative Easing = printing money
(a very risky pursuit)
Sub-Prime = extremely risky loan
(in reality there is nothing "prime" about it)
Negative Growth = shrinking
(what's next, negative laughter or negative happiness...?)
Also, when was it decided that "economics" should be pronounced "eckanomics"?
I'm old fashioned, in that I still say "eeconomics".
Complain about this comment
How long will it take for the BBC to mention the queries about how Mandelson was able to afford his very smart house.
Start the timer now!
Complain about this comment
Robert Peston's view of the government's proposed Credit Guarantee Scheme:
"It's a lot less easy to understand and possibly less ambitious than the Tory proposal to guarantee up to £50bn of loans to companies."
That sounds about right for the Golem - why make something simple when you can make it excessively and stupidly complicated?
His beloved "Tax Credits", where millions were over-paid and are now being threatened with the heavies if they don't pay it back. And no doubt thousands more not willing to countenance the humiliation and degradation of being means (well, it's certainly "mean") tested.
Complain about this comment
I run a medium sized business, so i'm delighted Mr Brown has come up with his new idea to help business.I can understand why some people are not so happy due to this recession, however the labour party has probably saved my business and my employees jobs. Well done Mr Brown, well done indeed
Complain about this comment
117 john constable
Imagine you ran a private enterprise and your customer base, as determined by the number of your registered 'loyalty customers' shrank to a miniscule number.
You would rapidly go out-of-business.
But not if you are a political party, somehow despite your 'loyalty customer' base shrinking to a tiny fraction of what it was a couple of decades ago, you continue to function and indeed even form Governments.
............................................................
The people who seem to gravitate towards political parties in order to climb the greasy pole all have two things in common. A career in Law, and Money. Some of them have more money than others - but one thing is sure. They all want much more.
If that party gets elected then it's a free-for-all. Government has carte blanche to order millions of pounds worth of computers, full redecoration of it's offices, first class travel, Olympic stadiums, you name it - and it's there, no questions asked. Even if it goes over budget, it might get a bit rocky for a while but nothing is ever done.
If a government loses valuable and sensitive information, no problem. They just tell the public the person responsible has been sacked, give them a backhand pay-off and all's well again.
It Stinks!
Complain about this comment
I've just been to sign on as my business which I have run for 15 years has gone into Receivership due to cashflow problems resulting from banks not lending to my customers.
There are queues forming at the local job centre reminiscent of the Conservative Party poster of 1979.....Labour isn't working.
This is a tragedy for our country. So much hard work is going down the drain and I fear this is only the tip of the avalanche that is about to engulf the country from how I hear other businesses are coping.
Brown is the part- architect of this crisis and needs to do the honourable thing. Cameron needs to throw off the idealogical straightjacket and start to focus on practical solutions. Cameron has been talking a lot of sense but now needs to become "Mr Angry" to show that he is serious about plotting a different path for this countries future.
A new Gov't will establish new trust which Brown has lost all semblance of.
It really is time for an election. More and more of the same failed policies of borrow, spend, tax, boom and bust or a return to sound money where all available resources are directed towards the private wealth producing sector rather than being sapped by a hungrey public sector and a clientele state of benefit claimants.
More than anything we need real action unconstrained by idealogical dogma persued by a Gov't with energy, self-belief and a MANDATE!
Complain about this comment
Someone asked: "Also, when was it decided that "economics" should be pronounced "eckanomics"?"
The answer is, of course, since it all went breasts up and people cried "Oh 'eck".
Complain about this comment
toffy 22
I sincerely hope you are still in business this time next year.
Complain about this comment
123#
Re Northern Crock: I contend that he had to act/be seen to be doing something, because it was his now discredited regulatory framework that allowed it to happen in the first place :-)
The fact that he acted the wrong way, nationalising it instead of letting it go to the wall is neither here nor there.
Complain about this comment
117#
Hear hear.
Mind you.. ultimately its up to the electorate to wise up and do something about it instead of being apathetic.
Not much danger of that though, unfortunately. We have allowed the political classes to be what they are.
Complain about this comment
#128 wrote:
'I run a medium sized business, so i'm delighted Mr Brown has come up with his new idea to help business.'
Good for you but it's not Gordon's new idea is it? He amongst others castigated when it was suggested by The Conservative Opposition some few months ago.
Complain about this comment
134 fubar
In my younger days, I wanted to stand for the local elections. I was told by a family friend that I would probably be very good but that I wouldn't get anywhere because I was too honest! That was in the 80's.
Complain about this comment
124 yellowbelly1959
I agree, quite disgraceful.
You seem to know about these things so whatever happened to Westland?
Complain about this comment
#128 toffy22
Based on previous NuLab form I suggest you read the small print before you crack open the bubbly
Complain about this comment
What a surprise, people are beginging to see that Labour are the
Complain about this comment
128. At 5:14pm on 13 Jan 2009, toffy22 wrote
I run a medium sized business, so i'm delighted Mr Brown has come up with his new idea to help business.I can understand why some people are not so happy due to this recession, however the labour party has probably saved my business and my employees jobs. Well done Mr Brown, well done indeed.
Except it want Browns idea was it, it was Camerons.
Cameron also said
If the Conservatives were in power, their policy would include an adaptation of the US Chapter 11 system which gives businesses 'breathing space' to work out a recovery plan before bankruptcy.
He also added that the party would cut corporation tax to 25 pence and fuel taxes would be subject to a 'fair fuel stabiliser', which would prevent petrol prices from causing problems for businesses.
So its actually well done Mr Cameron
Complain about this comment
135
"He among others castigated"
Sir/Mam, I've no wish to lock horns with people over this very serious matter, may i just point out that i did listen to the last PBR and i'm pretty sure A.Darling did say that he was going to help business and i'm pretty sure that G.B. is still the PM of this country. Unless i've missed an election over the last couple of weeks.
Complain about this comment
It has taken a bit of time but at last people are beginging to see that Labout are THE KNOW NOTHING PARTY. They have no idea how to get us out of anything and are picking up ideas on the run. That is why they continually get the BBC to interview the opposition to ask WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
Complain about this comment
128. At 5:14pm on 13 Jan 2009, toffy22 wrote:
I run a medium sized business, so i'm delighted Mr Brown has come up with his new idea to help business.I can understand why some people are not so happy due to this recession, however the labour party has probably saved my business and my employees jobs. Well done Mr Brown, well done indeed
===
Troll
Complain about this comment
In 2001 Westland Helicopters merged with Agusta to form AgustaWestland with Westland Helicopters Limited as a wholly owned subsidiary.
http://www.agustawestland.com/
Complain about this comment
128 toffy22
Yes well, rather troll-like remarks, I have to say.
I too am in favour of the loan guarantee scheme, and have been since about October, when the Conservatives first started talking about it. By comparison with their scheme, Brown's is "guarantee-lite", but undoubtedly better than nothing.
My concern is implementation. Months have been lost already, and hundreds of jobs lost too, while Brown was making his "seismic shift" from hating the idea to liking it after all. I'm not aware of any progress so far in implementing the micro-scheme that came up in the PBR - it takes months to move from an idea to a fully working machine.
Had the scheme been taken up immediately the Tories proposed it, it might be working, say, end of March. As it is, we probably won't see it in operation until July. And yet you say Gordon has saved your company and your employee's jobs. Is that really true? Can you hold on until July?
And the wider question... Do you think there might be a chance that Brown is chasing electoral advantage over everything else, and so making announcements rather takes priority over actually implementing schemes, however good they are. Are you really sure you will ever see the reality of a loan guaranteed by the government?
Complain about this comment
#128 toffy22 wrote:
I run a medium sized business, so i'm delighted Mr Brown has come up with his new idea to help business.I can understand why some people are not so happy due to this recession, however the labour party has probably saved my business and my employees jobs. Well done Mr Brown, well done indeed
Whoa there! I'd check the timing and detail of this before dashing to gush praise on Gordo. You might be waiting months for this aid if it ever happens at all.
Unless you're a newbie at Millbank.. Learn quickly: the other professional pro-Brown bloggers are waaay more subtle.
Complain about this comment
I hope not too many of our small businesses are in the export sector:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article5508201.ece
Complain about this comment
#141:
He may well have said that. I was just pointing out that it was so not his new idea.
Complain about this comment
Andrew Gilligan has been doing his homework.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23618111-details/So+how+did+Mandy+buy+his+%C2%A32.5+million+Regency+villa/article.do
Any chance of a comment Nick? You might ask a question at tomorrow's press conference and let us know the answer.
Complain about this comment
the only thing that will make a REAL difference, and lay a foundation for doing things better from now on, is some sort of common ownership of the means of production, finance and exchange
another "clause 4 moment" in other words - anything else is finger in the dam stuff
sorry
Complain about this comment
128. At 5:14pm on 13 Jan 2009, toffy22
Wow! What a claim.
Please explain - exactly - how.
Complain about this comment
141. At 5:56pm on 13 Jan 2009, toffy22 wrote:
135
"He among others castigated"
===
Press release
Tuesday 11 November 2008
For immediate use
Tories making headlines on the hoof - McNulty
Tony McNulty MP, Labour's Employment Minister, responding to the Tory announcement on unemployment said: "This is desperate stuff from the Tories, who continue to scrabble around trying to find a coherent economic policy.
"There is no way they can get 350,000 new jobs out of these proposals. There are too many restrictions being applied, the incentive is too small and many of these 'new' jobs will simply displace other people seeking work.
"In addition, the Conservatives just cannot pay for this tax cut - it is misleading of Cameron to say he can pay for getting the short-term unemployed back into work by using figures of savings you would make from the long-term unemployed.
"Osborne's judgment is wrong yet again. They are making headlines on the hoof and they will be found out. "They need to make their sums add up - particularly at such a difficult time for the global economy."
ENDS
Editor's notes:
1. Their figures on how many jobs would be created are complete fantasy. The Tory plan assumes that an employer would create a new job for someone unemployed for more than a year for just £2500. The Tories have failed to take account of the displacement of workers who would have gotten jobs anyway. Currently 60% of people come off job seekers allowance within three months - this number would drop dramatically under Conservative proposals as employers would be incentivised to overlook people who have been out of work for 13 weeks or less.
===
For Conservatives read Labour
For Cameron read Brown
For Osborne read ...errr, Brown...again!
It seems the Employment minister doesn't thing much of the new Labour employment package.
Hattip to Guido
Complain about this comment
We are all greatly indebted to Gordon Brown.
Thanks a Trillion!
Complain about this comment
128. At 5:14pm on 13 Jan 2009, toffy22 wrote:
I run a medium sized business, so i'm delighted Mr Brown has come up with his new idea to help business.I can understand why some people are not so happy due to this recession, however the labour party has probably saved my business and my employees jobs. Well done Mr Brown, well done indeed
Toffy22:
I have some sad news for you. Gordon Brown never means what he says. Its only two or three days later you realise you have been conned - again! As people here are advising you, wait until you see the small print. There will be so many hoops for you to jump through you will find you are not eligible. Listen to what the Trade Secretary was saying on camera today.
It is rumoured that the banks haven`t got their money yet so do you really think you are going to get anything? Gordon has stuffed small businesses with over regulation and high taxation, yet you want to shake his hand! I`d rather shake him by the neck.
He is the one who caused you your problems in the first place - he certainly is not your saviour, the tax payer maybe.
Complain about this comment
Typical.
At last I am a shareholder in a bank.
Oh hell, its a bad bank?
Even the Government now admits that the future prospects are dire. So as usual the Nu- Labour ploy is if the economy is only bleak then Gordon will get the credit. The BBC will make sure that's how the situation is reported.
Lets have the election, then we cannot say "I did'nt vote for this Prime Minister"
Complain about this comment
The difference for Scotland will be getting rid of the huge London-centric English parasite at independence.
Complain about this comment
150. At 6:23pm on 13 Jan 2009, sagamix wrote:
the only thing that will make a REAL difference, and lay a foundation for doing things better from now on, is some sort of common ownership of the means of production, finance and exchange
another "clause 4 moment" in other words - anything else is finger in the dam stuff
sorry
===
Agreed!
Bring back British Leyland!
Complain about this comment
Nothing to say regarding the troughing sleazebag Mandelson Nick?
Complain about this comment
Wow! the tory leeches latch on to any-thing
that praises labour.
Are you's guy's on a promise, dont answer that flamepatricia.
If you cant wave a flag just get those big pants on a pole, that I'll do the suff.
Tarzan and the westland crash, christ for someone who says he has not party you sure do like the tory history?
Well! tally ho' chaps I bet you wished you were here!
Complain about this comment
Rather than handing more money to the banks for them to promptly issue as bonuses or dividends, how about having the government offer loans directly to businesses at a competitive rate? Perhaps that will motivate the banks to stop contemplating their own navels.
Complain about this comment
Time will make a difference.
This storm will pass, the sun will set, the sun will rise
Complain about this comment
toffy 22 128
Sorry there is something wrong about you, I have never come across a business man who so easily accepts that they will recieve credit without asking questions. eg will the banks think Im a credit worthy business.
Also I have not seen a business man at the moment who is not angry with this Governments slow response to their problems.
Your a fake Im afraid.
Complain about this comment
Hi Derek,
How would you like to come and work for me, I could do with someone with your skills especially in these difficult times.
P.S. I wont be doing much of this, I dont know how you put up with it.
Good luck (my offer stamds)
Complain about this comment
AN EMERGENCY £500m scheme to help people back to work was launched by the Government yesterday – despite being ridiculed by Ministers when it was suggested by The Conservatives last year.
Employers will be paid up to £2,500 to recruit those out of work for more than six months, Prime Minister Gordon Brown said.
More apprenticeships will be offered as well as “intensive” support to the growing ranks of unemployed, such as work-focused interviews and help to upgrade skills, Mr Brown suggested.
But when a near-identical scheme was put forward by the Tories in November, Mr Brown’s employment minister, Tony McNulty, described it as “desperate stuff”.
“Many of these ‘new’ jobs will simply displace other people seeking work,” he said.
Challenged about the U-turn, Mr Brown said the Conservative plan had not been properly costed. The Conservative plan would be paid for by savings made from the benefits budget, while Mr Brown’s version is paid for by money from the Treasury reserves.
What reserves? I thought we were up to our eyes in debt.
Complain about this comment
OH.....MY......GOD
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2009/01/end_of_the_british_carrot.html
Complain about this comment
I do not like this policy, especially in the form Labour are implementing it. To me its just tinkering again. A business is either solvent or not, if you cannot sell your goods now, why would you be able to in 6 months time. This to me is once again throwing tax payers money at a problem only to loose it if the business fails. Will the banks take it up, doubt it very much unless they are bullied to do so.
Its the banking system that needs to be made to work in its proper form and as I said in my earlier post this will not happen, I believe because the wrong action was taken at the time of N. Rock. The bad bank is the best policy but should have been done before the bail out was even contemplated.
Complain about this comment
I know what will make the difference - get rid of Brown while we still have a country left, otherwise he will sell that next.
Complain about this comment
Hello Barking.
Taking a break from working on LabourList?
Amusing how more than half the contributions - even by erstwhile Labour supporters - are censored by the stasi.
Complain about this comment
What a fantastic idea. So now all us taxpayers own banks. Now we are moving into lending to compamies.Brilliant idea, i cannot be bothered what my taxes are spent on anyway. Who needs better health, education, roads, transport etc ??
We just need banks.
Complain about this comment
161
Sorry I called you Robert, Nick.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
149
skynine wrote:
Andrew Gilligan has been doing his homework.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23618111-details/So+how+did+Mandy+buy+his+%C2%A32.5+million+Regency+villa/article.do
Any chance of a comment Nick? You might ask a question at tomorrow's press conference and let us know the answer.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Skynine
Cheers for that. I don't live in London so wouldn't have seen it.
Andrew Gilligan
A blast from the real BBC past. Post Hutton.
the term Investigative Journalist springs to mind.
But once mandy came back it must have been like Ged Clampit looking for Oil. "When up from the ground came a bubblin crude"
This is now a test for our new BBC intake the excitement when they had a scintilla on Osbourne should now be frenzy on this story. We will wait and see this is surely the test of bias?
Over to you Nick this is the story you have been waiting for.
Complain about this comment
I haven't read all the posts so if I am repeating a previous comment, I apologise.
However, since the question is fairly straightforward - what will make the difference? - I believe the answer is equally simple.
All economies are based on confidence, which is based on trust. Every transaction involves two parties and they have to trust each other for the market to operate properly. Fundamentally, this is what has been lost.
Until there is a return of confidence, there can be no recovery, and the first step is unquestionably to allow the people of this country (and every other major democracy that hasn't had an election since October last year) an opportunity to vote for a new government. Whether that government in this country turns out to be Labour, Tory or anything else is not frankly that important. It is clear that both major parties have broadly similar policies (or if not, they will appropriate the ones they like best), so politics don't matter much in an economic sense.
But the big difference would be that for at least the first twelve months, even as the recession gets worse, the government would have broad support and the electorate would at least feel that they had some influence over how the problems are being addressed.
If a new government could be formed from more than one party, all the better, but we need an election in this country as a matter of absolute urgency.
Complain about this comment
#159 derekbarkingmad
Well! tally ho' chaps I bet you wished you were here!
===
What, in la-la land?
Complain about this comment
163. At 7:23pm on 13 Jan 2009, toffy22 wrote:
Hi Derek,
How would you like to come and work for me, I could do with someone with your skills especially in these difficult times.
P.S. I wont be doing much of this, I dont know how you put up with it.
Good luck (my offer stamds)
===
Yes, go and join your new friend's made up company Derek, something tells me you two would get on just fine!
Complain about this comment
YOUR COUNTRY NEEDS YOU
http://www.labourlist.org/home
Sign up now.
Complain about this comment
CarrotsneedaQUANGO2 @165,
Don't take it personally, Carrots - it's just pests voting against pesticide.
Complain about this comment
What on earth will make the difference ?
Oh - 'quantitative easing' will make a lasting difference: rampant inflation !
May actually suit some - including a short-term fixated government - but will cripple the rest of us, over time
Complain about this comment
#163:
I'm not fooled by your support of Barker. In fact I believe you could well be Barker with a second identity on a second computer. I'm familiar with the trick because I played with the idea about 4 months ago but then found it to be rather boring. Certainly confused grandantidote for a while.
Complain about this comment
163. At 7:23pm on 13 Jan 2009, toffy22 @163,
Earlier (@128) - in your capacity of running a 'medium sized business' [which generally means a few million pounds annual turnover], you were fulsome in your praise for Brown.
When asked why, you turn peevish - and praise Barker, of all people!
This just reinforces the suspicion that you are not what you claim to be.
If I am wrong, please write something to dispel this impression.
I run a medium sized business, so i'm delighted Mr Brown has come up with his new idea to help business.I can understand why some people are not so happy due to this recession, however the labour party has probably saved my business and my employees jobs. Well done Mr Brown, well done indeed
Complain about this comment
What will make the difference, Nick,
Well! we know what wont make a difference Nick, the young conservative lynch mob, Cameron and Osborne.
Stand steady flip/floppers, the sun will come out tommorrow.
Complain about this comment
Can someone assure me that I am not alone not having a clue what Derek has been on about the last week. Admittedly I left schol at 16 with few qualifications but it is a bit of a mystery what he is trying to state.
Complain about this comment
I just love sagamix's phrase 'finger in the dam'. It perfectly sums up Gordon Brown's approach to this whole Economic Crisis. He is throwing more and more money at the problem with no tangible results. God help us all because in trying so hard to do something and at the same time accusing his opponents of doing nothing he is making a pig's ear of the whole kaboosh.
Complain about this comment
Ah, Robert Nickerson, the best layed plans.Eh, chop/chop! you lot!
Complain about this comment
I have to smile at Nic's suggestion that the toxic debt of banks' has a Swedish solution.
In the early and mid-nineties in Central Europe, Poland, Slovakia et al, I was involved in removing toxic debt from state companies, putting them in a holding vehicle, and selling them back to the companies when they recovered in the future (4-8 years), at agreed reasonable rates based on their financial needs and plans. Most of this work was done through the EU.
The individual state did pick up much of the the cost as they gained from the changed and improved economy, but many of the companies I addressed (70%) did come right, get privatised, and attract FDI from Germany etc.
A typical example is the automotive industry in Slovakia.
The process could work for the banks but needs deep understanding of the industry and process. It also needs professional discipline and discreet contract formulation and monitoring, something politicians have a lack of.
The LibDem state bank approach is doomed to failure, and shows that they do not understand State owned systems and their inherent intervention weaknesses.
Complain about this comment
#149
Interesting report, nice to know he won't say where the shortfall came from
Do you think he sold his yacht?
Complain about this comment
136#
I can well beleive it, honestly I can. What kind of indictment is that on our politicians?
Makes you wonder why anyone would want to be one....
Complain about this comment
Have a little look at this article in the Sun then at the boottom of the page look at somes of the comments on "Add your view"http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2124747.ece
Complain about this comment
#113 Spot on. The only cure for this is a intravenous dose of Thatcherism.
1. Reduce government and council budgets to 30% of what they are now in order to force them to fire the unproductive work force who result in the council working at 30% of the efficiency of the Private Sector. Exempt the armed services, who offer good value for money.
2. Abandon 60 retirement age for public workers and stop all final salary pensions for new entrants.
3. Offer up public service chiefs for election by the public they serve including the Police.
4. Incarcerate the 250,000 most dangerous antil social individuals into chain gang based sentencing.
The law abiding citizen has had enough.
I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more
Complain about this comment
Since the current crop of banks are so reluctant to lend why not issue more banking licences? These should be restricted, not allowing speculative investments - margin lending, hedge funds, currency speculation and the like. They would surely be more competent than governments at assessing their lending and with the slowdown there should be plenty of staff available. The funds pumped into the current banks could be used as seed capital. New competition should act as an incentive to the current crop of banks to free up their resources.
Complain about this comment
156#
Meaning what exactly?
You think you can handle independance?
With three skint banks owned by the English?
Yeah right. You've got more chance of Gordon being re-elected as Prime Minister in England with a 300 seat landslide majority and a ticker tape parade down Whitehall than you have of Scotland being able to exist independantly. Or do you still beleive in Alec's "Arc Of Prosperity"???
You heard of the Barnett formula? Just how do you think you get those free prescriptions, no top up charges, no student fees? Who do you think pays them?
You're welcome to independance mate. Take your politicians and anything else north of 55 degrees north with you. English parasite indeed.
Leaching, Scottish deadweight millstone more like.
Complain about this comment
Until the Media stop the horror stories the public will have no confidence on taking loans even when available. This has been a long needed warning to all who borrow up to the hilt of their earnings - things can go wrong, always know where your next repayment is coming from. Wherever possible be at least 3 months payments for all bills in advance in the bank. Nowadays with being able to pay everything direct debit and monthly book-keeping is almost redundant as you always know your monthly outhgoings apart from extra loans and that is not much to remember. When we were first married I kept a full book-keeping system for our incomings and outgoings and it had to be right to the penny. I kept every receipt and entered them - if one week I was under the next week I had to make it up. Debt terrified me and still does.
Complain about this comment
#182:
I wouldn't worry too much. If you study these blogs carefully you will find that you are in a comfortable majority.
Complain about this comment
181#
Keep your chin up Del, it'll all be over soon.
Hang in there mate..
Complain about this comment
182 tenmaya
Derek is one of Gordon's little helpers. We haven't established if he's paid to do it, but we do know it's official.
He is here to taunt us (those of us who are not caught in Gordon's headlights, that is). The taunting distracts from serious debate and interesting speculation (just how close we are to having to make our case to the IMF, for example). His little efforts also put physical space (measured in screenfuls) between where most people look and where the controversial stuff is. Getting a screenful of stuff in when something awkward is posted, is part of the troll's work.
As to the content of Derek's posts, well, the meaning is irrelevant. Moments spent pondering his little messages add up to time not spent by us having naughty thoughts, or, far worse, expressing them. Thet's the way New Labour like it.
As an aside, blog runners of a more technophile nature than you will find here would be checking for similarity the IP addresses of derekbarker, onward-ho and toffy22.
Complain about this comment
Any Government should be very careful when using tax payers money - this is probably the first time the ordinary people have realised that when they say "the government should do something" what they really mean is that they should use the tax payers money more wisely or take more tax from the people. GB & his buddies have not stopped to think things through they are always reactive instead of pro-active. If he was such a wonderul chancellor how come he didn't see this coming 2 years before it did many of us did and said so inculding high financiers who could make themselves heard. I don't think any of us ever thought thigs would get as bad as they are but among friends we were talking about what was likely to happen in 2006 and those who hadn't already done so decided to give up credit cards except for online purcases where it gives a modicum of guarantee.
Complain about this comment
Did the appearance of Barking Derek mean that the moderators had to take a break?
Complain about this comment
Time for message moderation now 80 minutes!!!!!!!!
Has something nasty in the mods' dinners necessitated an extended potty break?
Complain about this comment
So many Brown initiatives smells of a cover up. Lets hope the media can see through this and get at the truth. There is just too much from government happening each day.
Complain about this comment
173
obangobang wrote:
All economies are based on confidence, which is based on trust. Every transaction involves two parties and they have to trust each other for the market to operate properly. Fundamentally, this is what has been lost.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
I do not agree with your multiparty Government conclusion BUT I bow to your wonderfully and succinct paragraph above.
I would suggest that on a much broader point this is the settlement that no longer exists between the British people and ZaNuLabour.
Complain about this comment
Quaint that the angry Tory mob that makes up 90% of this deluded rantboard think that if their mob ever got elected, in the real world,with real choices and real decisons, that Tories would be still be this soft centred caramello party .....no ,suckers, you would hate them every bit as much as you hate the only party in the UK who are living in the real world at the moment, Labour.
Complain about this comment
189#
Lets have some of that!!
Like the chain gang bit. Get 'em building their own prisons as well. That'll learn 'em!
Complain about this comment
156 bluelaw
Quite right, kick those parastic English out
I mean what did they ever do for you:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IaE3EaQte78
Complain about this comment
Nearly 2 hours to mod comments again!
The BBC just don't get it, do they?
Complain about this comment
Toffy22 wrote..
"I run a medium sized business, so i'm delighted Mr Brown has come up with his new idea to help business.I can understand why some people are not so happy due to this recession, however the labour party has probably saved my business and my employees jobs. Well done Mr Brown, well done indeed."
If this is all the Millbank Rebuttal Unit can come up with,then perhaps we are saved.
Tell you what,Toffy..you're welcome to Barkingmad...he's guaranteed to bring your business down!
Complain about this comment
177. MaxSceptic wrote:
Don't take it personally, Carrots - it's just pests voting against pesticide.
Ha true.
See youre getting hammered by Derek Drapers moderation team.
I just managed to get one through to our new Lord.
Hope you are all reading with the show trashed comments box ticked.
Much more fun
Complain about this comment
If you were in power and you had an idea in development, in fact an orchestrated plan , that you had been carefully and strategically been about to implement.......and then in comes clumsy clodcam with his half thoughtout Tory choirboy squealings on a similar vein....would you not just implement the plan as you had been going to do anyway?
In fact the uniformity of the superannuated Tory bloggers on here with their paucity of critical thinking ,would tend to confirm my theory that Labour are the doers and the Tories the wannabes.Mummy,naughty Labour stole my idea , wah wah wah .
Let the choirboys screech from the balcony, ......they are an amusing sideshow.
Complain about this comment
128. At 5:14pm on 13 Jan 2009, toffy22 wrote:
I run a medium sized business, so i'm delighted Mr Brown has come up with his new idea to help business.I can understand why some people are not so happy due to this recession, however the labour party has probably saved my business and my employees jobs. Well done Mr Brown, well done indeed
Your real name is Paul Myners and I claim my £5!
No one, absolutely no one who really runs a medium sized business could pssoibly have a good word to abot Clown. Absolutely impossible.
Complain about this comment
188. tenmaya wrote:
Have a little look at this article in the Sun
This is the last political throw of the dice 'Rub up so close to Obama that we look like Bros'
It's pitiful really.
At the upcoming Superdooper summit of Eckonomic wizards who have steered us to Valhalla there is the political question of the year for any Political hack that has the brains to ask it. Can you guess what it is yet?
Superman will walk out next to Barak and say ‘Nick Robinson BBC!’
The question should trip of the tongue if you have the bottle.
Complain about this comment
i find it absurd, that so many in business are lost without credit.
company A, announce to the world in 2007 that sales are up say 5%, turnover up 8% and profits are up 3%
yet this company are reliant on credit, and this isnt revealed or taken into account, this cannot be right?
if company A are making XXX amount of profit, then to be a viable business, they must be running in profit, ie, in the black.
it would appear that company A now just cost in debt repayments, rather than the debt itself.
this is a dangerous thing to do, one expects this government to manipulate figures etc,but a business that is on the stock exchange? is this not fraudulent?
all figures must be revealed, including outstanding credit owed, so how do they get away with it, and the individual is punished if they do it?
Complain about this comment
#191 Fubar_Saunders
With those spiteful (ignorant, ugly, arrogant - finish the list yourself) opinions, kind fool, are an unwitting architect of your country's own painful future reality check.
So we Scots deserve your malice? If you really believe it's as simple as 'you pay for us', God help you. Unionist MPs are terrified of losing Scotland, as the books at the Treasury would come under close scrutiny. What would they show?
I put it to you that there has been a hole in the UK's finances since post WWII and ask, what have successive governments done? Have they mastered great fiscal policies and done a great job growing the economy? I'm not bitter, but I am interested. Where did the oil money go?
You scoff at bluelaw as an ignorant runt. If you are so much more informed, then tell me.
We Scots wish England success with your future (independence?). But with your trashy attitude, perhaps you deserve what you may very well get, if (when) we achieve ours.
You will know all the answers to my questions because I am an annoying little nationalist....? (not deserving of the respect you heap on yourself?)
We are not all Labour loving zombies, like the Derek guy. In my house SNP was best (obviously), Tory acceptable (I'd probably go them in an Independent Scotland - Annabel is rather likeable), but even contemplating voting Labour was a great, great sin.
Good evening.
Complain about this comment
I see the Golem is now dithering over Heathrow.
That's why all this talk of elections is fanciful. The Golem won't go to the country unless he's certain he'll win. I reckon we could be heading for a constitutional crisis, as the Golem dithers and dithers over the election. The Queen will probably have to remind him that the five years are up and that he needs to call an election. Actually, she'll probably have to dissolve parliament herself, which would, of course, lead to a constitutional crisis.
Complain about this comment
Dear BBC
Here's a thought for you. If you don't like people writing nasty things about our Glorous Leader, Nick, or BBC bias, just don't bother with a blog site.
Don't waste our money (TV Licensing, It's All In The Database) on setting up a blog and then not allowing the free flow of comment, even from chumps like Derek!
You may as well waste the money setting up a TV service for Iran for the amount you spend on this. Oh, wait, er, you have already done that, haven't you?!
I look forward to reading my post on Friday.
Yours insincerely
Complain about this comment
Some of the posts on here really get too ad hominem.
I'm not that happy with some of Nick's commentaries (they are rarely journalistic reportage and probably a bit too Westminster-cosy for my liking).
I frequently disagree with individual's points of view. And sometimes have trouble trying to understand what on earth they are on about.
I've no idea who derekb and some other evident Labour supporters are, or what they do. Whatever - he and they are entitled to a point of view. As are people from opposite perspectives.
I'm sick and tired of what I perceive to be a waste of taxes. And a fatalistic general acceptance that politics is about spin - rather than delivery. (Sadly, I believe that Blair and Co created a bad attitude - and damaged the civil service by politicising it as never before.)
But, let's just all remember that the teachers, paramedicals, doctors or nurses who do their best to help us may just have different political points of view from our own.
We hope they will do a job. Even if we don't agree with how they plan to vote!
Complain about this comment
Will the last person to leave the UK please turn the lights out! oh there wont be any electricity or gas by then poor old UK is Bankrupt thanks to a prudent scotsman!
Complain about this comment
#201, 207 onward-hointooblivion
You are a troll, and you are derekbarkingmad, and I claim my five pounds, actually I would rather have it in Euros, thanks.
Complain about this comment
The Tories are dithering more about Heathrow than anyone.
Old Basta-Tory wants more planes but nimby, Neu- Tory wants to cut greenhouse gases but to keep the Range Rover, after young Castra-Tory has been on his gap year in Ecuador.
Complain about this comment
#171 carrots
Has the carrots ban started already?
Perhaps 'organic' would be the answer?
Complain about this comment
Morning, early rise today i've a flight to catch.
Business meeting in Europe. Talking too fellow colleagues about business, many of them referring to the "grey area" in business at this time is a lack of cofidence
many pointing the finger of blame at the mix message that the conservatives are sending out. Many also saying that Europe is far more collective in their response to this sad situation.
Complain about this comment
Seems weve been conned into a
COCKTAIL of
ZIMBABWE ECONOMIC POLICY WITH
A TWISTER OF COMMUNISM.
WELL DONE GORDY??
YOUR LEGACY IS A POISON CHALICE:
DEBT DEBT DEBT & DEBT.
5,800,000 on OUT OF WORK BENEFIT
JOBLESS RISING DAY BY DAY
WORST TRADE DEFICITS
WORST SKILL BASE
POWER INFRASTRUCTURE CLOSE TO
COLLAPSE
BUST BANKING SYSTEM
ETC ETC........................................
Complain about this comment
219 toffy22
Either it's a very peculiar business that you are running (if you want to retain your flagging credibility, you should say what it is), or you are a troll.
Complain about this comment
# 2 agc3167
Yep, you've hit the nail on the head. It really is as simple as that.
In addition, we must shift resources from the public sector to the wealth-creating sector (the provider of taxes) on a massive scale; stop assuming that "the state" can solve each and every economic and social problem; assume that individuals (not Gordon Brown) know what's best for themselves; provide carrots and sticks for getting people in to work (remembering that some 6 million households now rely on some sort of state benefit or other - we've become a nation of welfare-dependent couch potatoes); generally move the country to living within its means.
We've had a decade or more of Labour government fantasy economics (every Tom, Dick and Harry must get rich quick); it was always a Gordon Brown socialist scam; now the chickens are coming home to roost and few if any of the latest frenzied round of piecemeal, tactical, eye-catching government initiatives will make a blind bit of difference.
We're stuffed and it's going to hurt bad turning around the situation. Few if any of our current political elite have even begun to grasp the nature and scale of this looming catastrophe, still less do they have the faintest idea how to lead us out of it.
We may need to be in the gutter before a brave man/woman emerges with the honesty and economic and political skills to sort out this one.
Complain about this comment
#219:
Now you are beginning to show your true colours. Thought as much. I wonder how many businessmen share your sentiments.
Complain about this comment
#222;
I don't believe many ordinary people have yet grasped the extent of the mess we're in. When it begins to affect them personally and realisation dawns vengeance will be swift at the polls.
Complain about this comment
#224:
Sorry. I was referring to post 219 not 222. Sorry minty.
Complain about this comment
Just ignore my rambling. Tuesday morning confusion! As you were with my comments.
Complain about this comment
The country urgently needs its confidence restored. The only way that will happen is from Brown to call an election. Everyone knows his Government was asleep on the job. Let the electorate decide on his so called competence.
Brown has made many recent announcements about bogus job creation schemes, it is a wonder so many businesses are still closing. He is determined to spin his way out of criticism. Unfortunately, nobody believes a word he says. While he prevaricates and until he can establish strong credit lines for businesses with their banks, thousands more will lose their jobs. Implement the Tory suggestion of a credit loan guarantee scheme.
How many more will lose their jobs today Mr. Brown?
Complain about this comment
while the rest of us suffer I see Mandleson has managed to buy another expensive property he can't afford.
Any danger of you questioning how Nick?
What about his private meetings on the personal yacht of an aluminum tycoon, how are your investigations progressing?
Complain about this comment
228. At 08:26am on 14 Jan 2009, PutMeInCharge wrote:
while the rest of us suffer I see Mandleson has managed to buy another expensive property he can't afford.
I could answer this, and explain how Mandelson and others of his ilk can buy such property, but the moderators would censure me!
Complain about this comment
214 fairly
great post, well balanced and thoughtful.
others, please take note! (not much chance)
219 (and 221, 223)
Yes, how the main Opposition parties in the developed world behave does matter, even if they are not in power. This is especially true when they are looking like being elected soon.
Complain about this comment
Aye-write 211
Furbar-Saunders 191 may not have put things across in a kind way but Im afraid he was answering to a hate post from your fellow countryman bluelaw 156, and Im afraid his analysis is spot on.
Your politics are clouded by so much hate for the English, that you can not see the wood for the trees. It is Scotland which can not bury the past and move on and Im sorry until you do that, you will forever remain in the past. This recession is not just an English recession it is Scotlands too.The Barnett formular was only meant to be used for a very short time and should have been reformed a long time ago, but for the obivious reason that G. Brown and co is Scottish it has not happened. It is grossly unfair to the English we have elderly people too, you know, who would like all the free care yours are getting. You have slogans like 'English out or die' indeed my car was covered with this particular one. I have been abused in the street by people telling me to get out of the country calling me foul names, and this has further been whipped up by the SNP, are you really proud of this. Teachers in school teach the Scottish to dislike the English because of history long gone.
Everything has to be named Scottish eg its Scottish Gas when we in England have to call it British Gas. Your have effectively already cut yourself off. All I say is you could not expect not to get a backlash from the English who are just waking up to this problem.
It is a fact that I would have lived in England with a streetful of Scottish people and there would have been no difficulty because the English have no anger towards the Scots, you have caused your own problems.
Scotland has been in recession for years, and could not afford to go independent, be careful what you wish for.
Complain about this comment
Nick
Any news on MandyMansionGate?
Andrew Gilligan's story
You were first out of the blocks on
OsbourneHasDrinkonYachtGate so
Come get you teeth into this one.
Complain about this comment
219. This is Great Britain, or England. Some of us are permanently living here and our roots go back centuries. Some of us say the truth as we and millions others find it. OK?
Complain about this comment
#219 toffy22
I live and work in Europe and have done for the last 12 years, mainly western/central Europe but that's not really relevant
I can honestly say that no-one I know from all my foreign colleagues (and in my field there are people from just about very country in the world) mentions anything about British politics
Quite frankly - they don't care (and why should they) Most people couldn't even tell you who the leader fo the opposition was - let alone discuss policy details! If you're going to make up stories: make them credible
I have never heard anyone talk about opposition policies; or even labour policies for that matter. The only people that are remotely interested are the ex-pats; but to be honest most of them don't care either!
We all left for a reason; England isn't the same any more - the longer I stay away the less interest I have in returning. Each time I go home to the UK I can honestly say that I despair. The UK has become a joke
In the town where I come from (I still have a house there) there are people who make a living from benefits, it's the same faces in the pub all day every day and not many of them work - having children is a career now apparently, and raising them in the pubs is the best education they will get
I would like to go home and live in the UK at some point but I can't see it happening soon. The attitude of the country needs to change - people need to take responsibility for their own lives and future, and the government needs to get out of peoples lives and let them get on with it
The more I stay away the more I realise how lucky I am; and unfortunately the more I realise I am less likely to return to my own country - and this saddens me
I hope that we can get back to the Britain that I remember, but I fear not
Complain about this comment
mighty chewster
Surely some "lack of confidence" must be due to the BBC's reporting of the "economic downturn, credit crisis, credit crunch, recession" or whatever they call it.
I agree with you the news is depressing (alhtough I am lucky enough to be a positive type of character).
Every day we hear sensationalist statements by them to the effect that we are entering the worst depression in history etc.
I am not surprised that businesses and the general public are suffering from a "lack of confidence".
Complain about this comment
Without raising the ire of our Celtic brethren north of the border, the simple fact is that England pays for most of the privileges that you experience. The same is the case for Wales and Northern Ireland. Indeed without the taxes raised in the South East, London especially, much of England would suffer. Those outside the Capital may moan about the preferential attention that London gets, but they need it and its taxes.
What annoys many of the English that I know, me included, is that while Scotland gained a semi-independent government with privileges the rest of us will never see, your politicians still hold power in the national government. Many see Scottish politicians stopping free tuition and prescriptions while they and their family benefit. I’ll grant you part of that annoyance is based on envy, but part is very justified England is the only part of the Union that lacks its own parliament.
When we hear Scottish politicians moaning about the English tyranny and calling for independence, many of us feel, slightly, that they are being ungrateful and perhaps it would be better that they got their wish. The sad fact is even if Scotland did gain independence England would still be paying them money, just through the EU rather than directly. It’s sad in a way to see people advocating the end of the Union, especially since we are all part of Europe anyway, but I can see it happening and everyone will be poorer for it.
Complain about this comment
mighty chewster:
I have relatives in South Africa. Some of them have lived there thirty years and are well and truly integrated, married there etc etc and almost think of themselves as South Africans. The more recent ones who have settled find it difficult to adjust (understandably) and keep running this country down to justify why they sold up and moved lock stock and barrel out of the UK. They come back on visits every few months and buy up Tescos! Not literally, you understand, but because they simply cannot get out there in the way of consumer goods and food what they could get here. Their towels are of poor quality, their shoes are awful, they can't get any other bread than "government bread", they have to have electric gates around their property, etc etc.
Sometimes people posting from abroad and criticiising is just "sour grapes".
There are parts of England left which I consider to be the "real England". Unfortunatately they are becoming more populated and the properties are more expensive (if you dare to move and buy at this time!) due to the "white flight" out of London and other big cities where crime and racial tension is rife and quite frankly very very scary and depressing.
Complain about this comment
Yes another unelected minister soon to grace Westminster as Trade sminister. Getting tired of the flagrant disrtegard for democracy that Mr Brown is showing and utter contempt for the electorate by bringing in people like Mandleson and other fat cats from big business via peerage to the lords.
Even Mr Robert Peston has made an observation about this!
Should government have the ability to place unelected mena dn women into ministerial positions via the lords without the peoples say?
I dare say an overwhelming majority of those bothered to vote would have shot down The Dark Lord Marrakesh Mandy from becoming Business Secretary.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
thought it interesting that you waited until after the Lord Mandelson interview this morning before breaking the news covered in one of the heavyweight daily newspapers about the possible appointment of 'Lord' Davies as the new 'banking minister'.
As for the comment about waiting for a market to close in the Far East was a classic. You would have thought that you could have spoken about what was in the papers to the Editor of the programme and get a question asked indicates to me just exactly how much control Zanulabour now has over the BBC.
I wonder if what that Peston fellow would have said? This is such good fun.TAG.
Complain about this comment
#235 Patricia
I agree with your sentiment - a lot of confidence is down to the constant media coverage. If you are constantly told how bad things are then you will believe it
The country needs to wake up and get on with it. Britain has long had a reputation for knuckling down and weathering the storm with a stoicism that was truly British in character - but I don't see the same attitudes now
It seems to me that everyone wants to make it somebody elses problem/fault. They want someone else to fix it. We all have to just get on with it - work hard, innovate. We used to be the best in the world at this and I truly hope that we will again
I really believe that we need to stop feeling sorry for ourselves, stop blaming everone and everything around us and give ourselves a damned good kick up the @rse!
Complain about this comment
#219 toffy22
"Morning, early rise today i've a flight to catch.
Business meeting in Europe. Talking too fellow colleagues about business, many of them referring to the "grey area" in business at this time is a lack of cofidence
many pointing the finger of blame at the mix message that the conservatives are sending out."
This too is irony, no?
I too am in business. Me and my business friends were talking about business, because that's what we talk about. Business.
Anyway, me and my business friends all agree that we were pretty upbeat about the trade deficit, increasing borrowing, prospective tax rises, the collapse of sterling, plummeting shares, wiped out pension schemes, collapsing financial markets, runs on banks, a receding manufacturing sector with no pick-up in exports, no credit, disproportionate interest rates on borrowing, high-street names in administration, increasing unemployment and government forecasts from Never Never Land... to name a few business issues that me and my business friends talk about when we're talking about business.
But then, the mood was soured when David Cameron pointed it out.
;-)
Complain about this comment
re Portcullisgate 200
"I would suggest that on a much broader point this is the settlement that no longer exists between the British people and ZaNuLabour."
May I point out that it never did exist!
64% of the electorate voted for something else but our "largest minority wins all" electoral system means that a party with 36% support can dictate to the majority.
And actually I'm not making a party political point, it has been true of nearly every government since the war which has meant there has always been a fundamental disconnect between what the people voted for and what they got.
Until there is radical reform of the electoral system and we have government that is substantially representative of the will of the people then we will continue to have built in dissatisfaction with the way we are governed.
Of course its a threat to the main parties and the almost untramelled powers of the sitting PM which is why such change has been resisted. Remember politicians aren't really interested in democracy they are interested in power and will fight to retain any system which gives them the means to stay in power and force us to live the way they want, not the way we want.
Complain about this comment
Ha, Chewster, well put!
However, you and I have found that the areas we have lived in most of our lives have DRAMATICALLY changed. For instance I am actually an ETHNIC MINORITY in my area. If I go into the town centre I never hear English spoken. The people push shove wear muslim headgear with stilleto shoes on, chew gum and spit it onto the pavement, display their wares all over the pavement (such as fruit vegetables and household goods), refuse to queue at bus stops and look at the few of us as if WE were foreigners!
If have said it so many times. It is not rocket science, nor is it racist. It is a huge problem which has been inflincted on us (allowed to happen with a blind eye turned by this government), and one which we SHOULD NOT HAVE THE WORRY OF BUT WE HAVE!
What's more it is costing this country billions economically to say nothing of the cost in social problems.
Yes, I know our own English / British behave badly as well but, in all honesty, their self esteem is so low and they are pushed under as the incomers get priority treatment, they just don't have the morals or incentives to act otherwise in some cases.
Labour Socialist whatever they are, they are not a fair government at all.
I am prepared to give the Conservatives a "go" as I believe the majority are (look at polls) partly because there is no better choice but partly because I feel we could be pleasantly surprised by the "upturn" in matters social, economic and general morale of our once great British people.
I think David Cameron would put the country first and not some sinister other agenda such as New World Order, Globalisation, etc. which Brown is hell bent on. Labour always manages to ruin the country and when they get kicked out those who will remember it will never allow them to get back in again for decades - centuries I would hope (I have grandchildren!).
Complain about this comment
#237 Patricia
I work and live abroad mainly because this is where my profession has taken me (and also the money to be honest!)
I would dearly love to return to the UK to live (I live in Lancs/Cumbria) and I really believe that this is part of the 'real England' that you mention - but there's just no work in my area for my profession
I comment because I do care about the UK and what happens to it. I want it to improve and progress but I don't see it happening under the current administration; any new government is going to take years to undo the damage of the current lot in charge
I apologise if my comments seem like sour grapes to you - they are not intended as such. England and it's current woes are a bit of a joke around Europe though (especially the policy-a-day brought out by Mr. Brown!) I respect you for your views on England
I don't think that I run the country down. I think that you do get a better perspective of how the country is when you have been away for a while and return to visit. I meerly speak what I see and I do want to return
Complain about this comment
mighty chewster
I agree with your comments that the british used to be stoical and weather the storm.
I think the reason for such apathy is that almost a generation of people have been brought up to believe that it's OK to live off the state.
Twenty to thirty years ago this wasn't the case. Even in the toughest times we got through it. Nowadays, the DSS is the first point of call.
Complain about this comment
With grammar like that Sgt. Digby has got to be a Labour troll!????
Complain about this comment
toffy22 219
More like your on you bike going to your council job, your not a business man now admit it.
Sorry could not resist it I know hes telling untruths.
Complain about this comment
#219 Toffy 22 wrote:
Morning, early rise today i've a flight to catch.
Business meeting in Europe. Talking too fellow colleagues about business, many of them referring to the "grey area" in business at this time is a lack of cofidence
many pointing the finger of blame at the mix message that the conservatives are sending out. Many also saying that Europe is far more collective in their response to this sad situation.
----------------------
Good to see that British business is in safe hands!
Based on my own experience of working in Europe and talking to intelligent people I find it incredible that they would spend time talking about British opposition politicians who have not been in power for 11 years.
If Europe does have a more collective response then I have to ask who has been in power for 11 years, and who framed the UK approach?
Possibly you would want to argue that Gordon Brown simultaneously led the world but failed to participate in a collective European approach. Not a very logical argument, is it?
If you carefully read the policy documents issued by the EU and the IMF then you will find a strong consensus in favour of a global fiscal stimulus, but with serious reservations about a VAT cut. (I quoted the IMF's criticism of the UK VAT cut recently). The Conservative position is in favour of a global stimulus but not for heavily indebted nations, or nations whose fiscal position is deteriorating fast (see David Cameron's interview with Andrew Marr last weekend). I take this to be fully compatible with the G20/IMF approach.
Complain about this comment
I know you are a genuine person Chewster, and I understand (now I am sounding like an agony aunt, sorry I don't mean to!).
We most of us do love this country. My father and grandfather fought in two world wars for our freedom and the wonderful society and stoicism, as you say, of our people. Those ideals are now eroded but, I believe, not irrevocably. I do believe that we are beginning to see the light and, hopefully, although it is an awful mess to sort out, a new government that puts the country and its peoples (hopefully indigenous peoples!) first BEFORE starting to change the world(!), will let us all be happy again.
Bit idealistic I know, but that's me, upbeat and positive!
I have heard foreigners often say:
Britain tries to save the world but can't save itself. Well that is not us, the individual Joe Public in the street, it is the dreadful government Blair (niave, well meaning but niave and a thespian, although he has somewhat humbled himself of late) and dangerous, headstrong Brown.
Complain about this comment
mightychewster 234 240 244
I agree with everyting you have said very good posts.
Complain about this comment
219 Toffy
Apart from talking it!
You have a meeting!
In Europe, Christ! This meeting must be huge!!! I've had meetings in London, Paris, Stockholm and Geneva; I've never been called to a meeting in Europe.
Especially one where the subject matter includes focused subjects such as business.
I think someone is telling stretchers, come on now! Admit it, are you Derek’s mate Nigel, from the Foxes need Coats for winter commission? Room 412, Fourth Floor Lambeth Council.
Bet I'm not too far off.
Complain about this comment
#214 fairlyopenmind
Like your rationale and the way you express it.
Complain about this comment
231#
You put your points eloquently and on reflection, as soon as I had hit the Post Comment button, I began to question whether I had taken a nibble at a piece of groundbait that I really should not have risen to at my age.
I have no problem with nationalism per se, nor am I completely ignorant of the wrongs that the English nobility inflicted on the Welsh, Scots and Irish over the centuries; Indeed, I fully understand the backlash that came when it did and how those events have now shaped the union to the state that it is now. Had I been in their shoes, I would arguably have acted the same; therefore, I am not in a position to criticise.
What riled me in this posters short, toxic, rant post was the accusation of the English parasite, living off the Scottish host. Regardless of your politics, your post shows you to be considerably more thoughtful than the target of my ire; You will no doubt be aware that the usual Salmond bark about Scottish oil is a misnomer. Most of the North Sea oil is in international waters and in the Norwegian sector. Scotland is, by virtue of its geography, deep water ports, its infrastructure, its proximity, very well placed to be at the front of exploiting those natural resources. But, it doesnt make those resources Scottish. I think I can see the point of "well, if the English exchequer can levy taxation against it, allocate licences, etc, then why cant a Scottish one?" Fair point. But as the union is what it is, the revenues gained from N.Sea oil are meant (and I use the term cautiously) to be for the benefit of all citizens of the union, not Alex Salmond's inference of English grand larceny. That just further serves to reinforce his poisonous prejudice and dyed in the wool hatred of the English for the sins of their forefathers. Had there never been a union, maybe it would have played out that way, but it didnt. That is somewhat difficult now to undo.
I'm afraid that as much as Scottish nationalism and by association, independance may have its emotional appeals, Salmond is never going to be the politician to deliver it. Most of the Scots electorate is rational enough to understand that and that despite the wrongs that may have been done over the centuries that there has been peace between England and Scotland for nearly 300 years; We need each other. Scotland does not have the population base to be able to sustain the level of public services that it does, the level of public sector employment that it does, the level of healthcare that it does, without funding from the avaristic English exchequer.
Odious it may be, but there is no escaping it.
Whether RBS and BOS set out to achieve world domination and bring untold riches to the nation, remains a moot point. Salmonds' crowing of an "Arc Of Prosperity" show a significant degree of economic ignorance and an even larger degree of playing to the political gallery; Could EU subsidies alone have sustained a second Celtic Tiger economy, in addition to Ireland? Pass. I dont know. I wouldnt have bet the farm on it though.
Scotland has been the birthplace of some of the most inventive people in history who have changed the face of the world and is a beautiful place; I spent 8 years of my young life in Aberdeenshire during the 1980's and thoroughly enjoyed it. I found the citizens to be funny, charming, hard working and industrious and with a justified pride in their ancestry which the English have had slowly diluted out of them over the last 20 years, where any nationalistic tendencies were linked by alarmists to the rise of the fascistic far right; What starts with not being allowed to fly the union flag at a council office in London spreads like a poison and instead of choking off the oxygen of publicity to the far right, hands it to it on a plate.
Twenty five years later, the results are plainly evident. The English are emotionally repressed, made to feel embarrassed about what and who they are and have lost their pride in their identity and consequently, dont care much about anything anymore, but with an emerging far right nationalism that, if it finds a totemic, inspirational leader, is capable of doing phenomenal political and social damage to the fabric of the nation.
Now. Repressed we may be, but every now again some young fool, or more likely a deliberate agent provocateur (who knew exactly what kind of response such a comment would solicit) posts such an inflammatory remark, it is felt as biting the hand that feeds. Theres only so many times one can be bitten before one starts to resent it. What I said was a rant, it was in a tone unbecoming and I should have risen above it. But, as Susan Croft pointed out, what is below the surface at the moment will not always stay there if our noses are rubbed in it. By all means, if you feel you can go it alone, lets work together towards devolution and if you the majority vote for it, independance. But, pursuing Salmond's ages old dyed in the wool, passed down through the generations hate; You've got as much chance of successful accession from the Union as Gaza has from Israel. Sorry.
231#
Susan: Thank you for your support.
Complain about this comment
219. At 05:45am on 14 Jan 2009, toffy22 wrote:
Morning, early rise today i've a flight to catch.
Business meeting in Europe. Talking too fellow colleagues about business, many of them referring to the "grey area" in business at this time is a lack of cofidence
many pointing the finger of blame at the mix message that the conservatives are sending out. Many also saying that Europe is far more collective in their response to this sad situation.
===
Yes, how is the porcine aviation business?
You are a deluded troll!
Complain about this comment
240 chew
Yes, absolutely correct. The UK has largely gone soft. Let's hope that the challenge we face brings out some of the social cohesion we need. This is why bankers etc. cannot be seen to be getting away with their piles of loot whilst middle and lower income earners face unemployment and repossession.
243 flame
I don't wish to be rude, but that post is straight out of the BNP manifesto.
Is that what you mean when you say that you'll give the Conservatives a chance, that you'll switch from voting for Nick Griffin's lot?
If you really believe that the Conservatives (party of free-flowing market capitalism) will be more effective at resisting globalisation, I suggest that you reconsider.
Changes such as globalisation are always brought about because of technological 'advances', and seldom involve mere politicians in more than a superficial way- they tend to react to events.
Just as the sailing ship, and engineering advances, brought Roman mini-globalisation to much of the world, so digital technology has the effect of making much of central Tokyo look like London, New York etc.
It's also going to bring migration- people will inevitably move towards opportunity to gain wealth. Britain has been an importer of people for the past 1000 years, and more so at times of greater economic strength.
We in the UK still live in one of the fairest and freeest societies that has ever existed on earth (whatever you may think) and still one of the most liberal in terms of economics. We'll weather the next year or so, and we'll still be an attractive place for people to want to live in.
There's really no point in moaning about the loss of what the UK, or the 'real England', once was. It probably wasn't the way we imagine anyway.
Complain about this comment
SO originally the title of this post was 'What will make a difference?'
isn't it becoming clear that nothing the government does is making the slightest difference?
Drafting in one unelected advisor after another; makng one policy announcement after another; this is a government in disarray.
They don't know whether to fully nationalise the banks; they don't know whether to write off all theri loans or make the banks pay themselves for the damage theyhave caused. One would risk destabilising the natioanl balance sheet and push iup the cost of government borrowing the other would risk destabilising the banks again and tdamaging the government's reputation in the city (not that this amounts to much at the moment)
The Governemt finds itself in yet another cleft stick of its own making; all becasue it can't just admit it got things wrong during the boom and let things get out of control; and that
no amount of lecturing persuases this government the man at their tiller was Gordon Brown and was asleep at the wheel.
So who was running the country duing the age of irresponsilily? Minnie Mouse? Dumbo the elephant? Zebedee? Andy Pandy?
No, Gordon Brown stood their chanting no more tory boom and bust while he ramped up public sector spending and screwed the private sector for more taxes.
#
Gordon Brown was responsible for the biggest credit bubble in history 'on his watch' but he did nothing to curtail it.
What will make a difference is for Gordon Brown to resirgn. Now
Call an election
Complain about this comment
#249
Well put - we need to sort out the UK first and foremost and sod everyone else! We do tend to try and get involved in everything don't we?
I for one would like to a politician (or party for that matter) just stand up and tell us what they will do to start fixing the country. Politicians spend too much time finding out what will be the popular choice, and then have opinions tested on so-called think tanks etc etc. I long for the day when someone will stand up and just state what needs to be done - and then get on with it
I'm not interested in what is popular. I don't care if a decision upsets people - we need to do what is right. In these times I believe we need to cut public spending - yes there will be job losses etc but I don't really care; it needs to be done, we have to repay what we owe. Only when this has started can we begin to create real wealth again. We need to cut costs, stop pandering to the press and get on with the job in hand - however unpopular the choices may be
I hope that we will find a politician with the guts to do this but i'm not sure at the moment. I quite like Dave Cameron and think he will be OK but he needs to stop trying to please everybody and say what needs to be said
I have little time for Maggie but she did what needed to be done at the time - and it worked; and I thank her for it. She was the right character at the right time. Does Mr. Cameron have what it takes?
Time will tell and hope he does
Complain about this comment
Councillor used pseudonym to praise own work
"A councillor came under fire today for using a pseudonym to praise his own work.
Ben Grower posted comments under several aliases on the Daily Echo's website.
But the newspaper in Bournemouth, Dorset, decided to name and shame the councillor after he posted praise for himself under the name Omegaman.
In one post about plans to build Europe's first artificial surf reef in Boscombe, the Labour councillor wrote: "At least two councillors seem to be concerned about this mess. Well done Cllrs Ratcliffe and Grower."
Other comments praised him for fighting a housing plan and, concerning the expansion of a dentist's surgery, he wrote: "Just shows that the area does have councillors who care about their residents.
"Well done Ted Taylor, Ben Grower and Beryl Baxter."
Mr Grower refused to comment on the allegations but sent an email to colleagues admitting he had been writing under aliases for some time.
He said many other councillors did the same thing and that he had never written anything offensive but only did it to have "a good laugh online".
The long-standing councillor said in his email: "As far as I am concerned this has and always will be a legitimate means of making comments.
"It is perfectly legitimate to use pseudonyms as indeed many others do."
Investigations showed Omegaman was registered with an address containing Mr Grower's name.
He initially denied being the author, saying it could be anyone, even Santa Claus, but later admitted it to the newspaper and said he would carry on but would use a different pseudonym.
Leader of the council's Liberal Democrats, Claire Smith, said it was deceitful.
"It's a little bit sad to say the least but it does have serious connotations," she said.
"Things like this cannot happen or the trust breaks down between councillors and members of your ward."
The Daily Echo said in a statement online: "The Echo does respect its readers' right to anonymity but we felt that when a councillor pretends to be somebody else to improve his reputation that it is of sufficient public interest to tell people about it."
===
Is Derekbarker Gordon Brown?
I think we should be told!
Complain about this comment
GOD I am TIRED of GORDY and his
MAGIC ROUNDABOUT.
Complain about this comment
Mandy is now being questioned about the sums for his new bank mortgage not adding up.
Yet he is the one handing out Taxpayers money to the banks
Does anyone see a conflict of interests here?
Surely he should not be dealing with this until the mortgage money questions have been answered
Complain about this comment
#214
Ah, Ha, No need to take an obtuse reaction,
especially when the thinkers then do.
Yip! you do tune into the wrong frequency
more often than not.
The fairly repetitive tax eunuch is all at sea over Ed, Balls.
Complain about this comment
yellowbelly1959
Is Derekbarker Gordon Brown?
I think we should be told!
...................................................................
Don't think so. Gordon can just about cobble a coherent sentence together, even if he is told what to say.
He could be John Prescott, though.
Complain about this comment
#231 Susan-Croft
It's scary - there's so much misunderstanding! Sorry other bloggers, but I feel I must answer.
I don't particularly blame you for your comments, if you've had those horrible experiences that's of course outrageous, but you cannot tar me with that particular brush.
There are disgraceful Scots as are there are disgraceful English or anybody, but if you blacken my name in the same fashion as them then you are seeking to rival not condemn.
"Your politics are clouded by so much hate for the English, that you can not see the wood for the trees."
Actually, no. The obvious contempt for us many of yours hold we accept, but like religious bigotry, we are trying to bury it and move forward. I realise Gordon et al. are an enormous hindrance - a great many of us can't abide him and are entirely ashamed. The tide is changing in Scottish politics, but that's another story.
"Teachers in school teach the Scottish to dislike the English because of history long gone."
I did not even get Scottish history at my school. It was the industrial revolution - from an English point of view. It was interesting of course, but I'm afraid that comment belongs in fantasy land. Some bad parents maybe...(but we lambast them nowadays - your comments are dangerously similar).
"Everything has to be named Scottish eg its Scottish Gas when we in England have to call it British Gas. Your have effectively already cut yourself off. All I say is you could not expect not to get a backlash from the English who are just waking up to this problem."
We actually sympathise, as we can put ourselves in your position (I'd recommend you try it). Myself I've read sites devoted to this problem of perceived loss of Englishness. And I wouldn't promote it. If you'd rather have English Gas, great. But remember the Scottish bit in Scottish Gas is used merely to denote a region, like an English county - it does not allude to nationhood.
"It is a fact that I would have lived in England with a streetful of Scottish people and there would have been no difficulty because the English have no anger towards the Scots, you have caused your own problems."
I think I have dealt with that. I was lucky growing up to live in an area with a mix of folk. Most of my good friends had moved in to the area, almost all from somewhere in England. Aberdeenshire you see, with its micro-economic climate, is I think a window on an Independent Scotland.
"Scotland has been in recession for years, and could not afford to go independent, be careful what you wish for."
Well, I see a big flashing sign saying 'SPIN'. I'm sorry you think you 'keep' us but you're not that generous and we're not that pathetic. A cursory analysis of the economic facts would deconstruct this illusion. (anyone interested, see oldnat and others on Brian Taylor's blog). I'm afraid it is Britain who has never been able to afford its luxury of 'special world significance'.
However, greed or stupidity is not the motivating factor for seeking independence (nor is any comment the more embarrassing of the English are prone to throw).
My father, it seems permanentally renound for his intellect, sometimes to my mum's annoyance was often too ready to help his neighbours (they asked a lot), was very non-materialistic and didn't much value the pusuit of wealth. He simply wished Scots had the basic self-respect to believe they can govern their nation for themselves. I think you could possibly sympathise.
Finally, bluelaw (you would know if you'd read some of his other postings) does not suffer from hate. He does not spend time in order to lace his honesty with tact perhaps. His aims from what I can see are entirely genuinely pro-Scottish. (I'm sorry to be your mammy here bluelaw!)
So to counter the link from CarrotsneedaQUANGO2 which begat all this, here's another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO5leiwEiTM
OK, everyone carry on Labour bashing - it's been quite a good read.
And being a nationalist you know doesn't automatically mean being a fool.
Thanks if you bothered to read this.
PS I think unless things force one, I'd guess there will be an election next spring. Brown, in denial, still believes he is the architect of some 'profound great social benefit' about ripe for the unveiling, when we'll wonder at him. We already wonder Gordon - at the total shambles.
Complain about this comment
Munich you are a silly boy! I have always voted Conservative!
But maybe you are not so silly after all because inadvertently you have highlighted the fact that many people in desperation will and are indeed supporting the BNP. Who is to blame? Well the Labour government for allowing these situations to happen completely unchecked, willy nilly, ad lib, on their watch!
It is too late for them to watch it now. They have failed.
No, never dispute my true blue allegiance. However, many are putting their second choice as BNP. How do I know this? Well, the black and asian communities who do not normally vote in great numbers, had missives circulated before the last council and London Mayor elections urging them to vote that time for fear the BNP would gain more ground.
That is absolutely true and a real threat. As Harry Enfield says: If that's what you want then that's what will happen. Carte blanche from Labour - on a plate.
Complain about this comment
Looks as though the Government has eventually agreed to some payout to the people affected by the Equitable Life scandal.
Interesting to note that the Ombudsman ruled that the Department of Trade and Industry, the Government Actuary's Department and the Financial Services Authority (FSA) were guilty of "serial maladministration".
The FSA has admitted they were very concerned about Northern Rock's business model. But apparently did nothing. Presumably they make their information known to the BoE and Treasury, since they are jointly responsible for oversight of financial organisations.
Any chance of an investigation of that trio, to see whether maladministration allowed NR to project itself as a viable plc (encouraging individuals and organisation to become shareholders), while knowing that it was highly exposed?
Complain about this comment
Nick,
I am seriously worried. You will probably know from history about the Moroccan crises which happened prior to WWI, countries felt that they had been insulted, and that they would not let it happen again, so prepared for war. Also we had the Balkan wars which were local affairs, but certain nations were not going to be insulted again or like others had been. The media got the blood up.
Today the Daily mail is running the report of the two Iranian men who have been stoned to death, terrible things being done in the name of religion. Iran possibly getting the nuclear bomb, what would they do with it if they still stone people to death. Iran is up to its neck in it with Hamas.
You can see where I am going with this one, Russia will soon be in turmoil, the right is on the march, there is only one solution, America must go to war against Iran to protect Israel, Russia will do anything to divert attention from its own internal problems, China will continue its expansion into Africa, and good old Brown will be saving the world. You could not make it up, trouble is I don't think I have.
It must be war, and soon, the politicians can be so stupid, it is just like WWI all over again. TAG.
Complain about this comment
Hey! mellowyellow, stop sucking that cactus.
honestly! some people will do anything for attention.
Complain about this comment
Toffy wrote @5.45 am...
"Morning, early rise today i've a flight to catch.
Business meeting in Europe."
As we are officially within Europe,could your meeting be in the canteen at Millbank?
I bet your "fellow colleagues" (strange expression) are spellbound by your undoubted business acumen!
btw...isn't fudge another word for toffee?
Complain about this comment
Munich man
You are right - some of us do remember a great past (possibly you are too young rofl).
What I would say in my defence is : why is it if things are better now, do the media etc. keep referring to present day problems, obesity, health and emotional problems, economic problems, greed, the musthave socieity and so on and so on..
Look back.
We were healthier then - see the old movie archives and news footage. People were ALL slim, had to walk, move, cook properly good basic food, help each other out (counsellors - what on earth are they?), were disciplined (it was degrading to go on benefits it was considered a failure and sad to be a one parent family or be divorced).
We ate our greens and did our exercises!
"The past is gone, it is dead, let it sleep. It's lessons alone are the ones we should keep".
I rest my case.
Complain about this comment
@258 Yellow
"Is Derekbarker Gordon Brown?
I think we should be told!"
No, he's not phsycologically flawed enough
Complain about this comment
255#
Munich:
In reply to Flame's 243, I understand what you're getting at and you make some salient points about us being a nation of immigrants anyway, the only difference being how many hundreds of years you've been here for. I readily accept that.
What has exacerbated the problem over the last 40 years has been the existance of the welfare state. Arguably, following the dissolution of Empire, the UK has a duty of care and a moral responsibility. I would not argue with that. The problem is one of perception.
Where prior to the welfare state, anyone who came here, I would venture, received very little if any state help and made what they did of their lives through their own efforts. Some doing spectacularly well.
I fully acknowledge that even during the times of the welfare state that there have been influxes where those concerned have put more in than they have ever taken out (I'm thinking particularly of the Ugandan Asians expelled by Amin in the 70s).
But... and no doubt, some of it is not helped by an alarmist press corps, the perception is that there are a significant number who, whilst they may be entitled to take something out of the welfare state appear - note the use of the word appear - to be doing so without having put something in, or are seen to be receiving favourable, preferential treatment at the expense of those who'se families have been here for many many more generations.
Now, that is the perception, that is the thing the BNP will seek to exploit and have been having a not insignificant degree of success in doing to date.
Please dont take this the wrong way, but just to slap someone down who sees this perception everyday by calling them a BNP supporting racist is not going to make the problem go away, is not going to dispel this perception. Its not just a case of being fair and even handed, its being seen to be and proven to be even handed that will dispel it.
There has only been one voice in the PLP that has raised this issue about the apparent disenfranchisment of the "white working class" and this perception of the immigrants getting what the indigenous population has paid for - not just in taxation, but in sacrifice in two world wars and other conflicts - without having put anything in, and that is Hazel Blears. And, although her views are reported, Central Government appears to do nothing about it, or she is slapped down by her own party as alarmist.
Dismiss this BNP monster at your peril, which is what both all three main parties have done; this is a subject I have taken an analytical interest in for some time. Griffin is a leader who has brought them from the violent loony fringe to a point where at local government level they are making inroads.
God help us all if they find a Blair or a Mandelson figure who will make them electable at a national level. And I do not say that lightly.
You think things are bad now. I dont mean to be rude but I dont think you couldnt begin to imagine how bad it could be, how far in the opposite direction the pendulum would swing under a BNP government.
Complain about this comment
255. At 10:15am on 14 Jan 2009, MunichMadrid7980 wrote:
240 chew
Yes, absolutely correct. The UK has largely gone soft. Let's hope that the challenge we face brings out some of the social cohesion we need. This is why bankers etc. cannot be seen to be getting away with their piles of loot whilst middle and lower income earners face unemployment and repossession.
243 flame
I don't wish to be rude, but that post is straight out of the BNP manifesto.
===
The leading Labour rebel, Frank Field, has teamed up with senior Tories to demand a cap on the number of immigrants settling in Britain.
In a move that will alarm Downing Street, Field will tomorrow become the first prominent Labour figure to tackle Gordon Brown openly over the explosive issue of immigration.
A former welfare minister under Tony Blair, Field will join Nicholas Soames, the Tory MP, to call for a huge reduction in the numbers of non-European Union workers who settle permanently in Britain. Soames, a former minister under John Major, is a hate figure among many Labour MPs.
Together with the pressure group Migrationwatch, Field and his allies will launch the first cross-party parliamentary immigration group. The move has tacit support from at least one government minister.
===
Immigrants to Britain in the past five decades have been treated like hotel guests who 'do not belong', the Archbishop of York said yesterday.
Dr John Sentamu said the failure of migrants to integrate had contributed to the collapse of a common British culture and the lack of a national sense of direction
===
Munichmadrid7980, looks like both Frank Field and the Archbishop of York have joined the BNP as well, according to your logic!
Complain about this comment
Hee hee. Derek Barker can't be Gordon Brown. If he is they should sue his teachers for poor grammar and spelling instruction.
Complain about this comment
Nothing wrong with a bit of deflation. Helps us get to the bottom that bit quicker. And only then will confidence return and people start buying things again. It's a natural part of the cycle.
Complain about this comment
My Mum told me about an old friend of hers who was an Accountant and he lived the life of Reilly.
He and his wife drove luxury cars, went on at least 3 holidays per year, both kids went to public school (at the same time)....UNTIL
The authorities caught up with him and he's had to sell his house, move in with his mother, hand his credit cards back, sell his cars. Of course, being an Accountant he has been struck off the register and goodness knows what's he's doing now.
I fear that it's people like this who have had access to cheap credit (not to mention the people who have taken out 110% mortgages to spend 30k on a car and repay it over 25 years) that are partly to blame for the economic meltdown in which we now find ourselves.
Moreover, it's the financial institutions who have been making these wild decisions vis-a-vis credit agreements etc etc that are also to blame.
I remember when I first graduated in 1996 and got a job with Logica. My salary was just a tad over 17000. Because we're all hard up after Uni, I went into my overdraft limit and what was Natwest's response, give the man a credit card with a 3000 credit limit. Like, that's about 3 months salary. What on earth? I never really used it but they kept upping the limit to encourage me to spend.
I fear that we are now paying for years of a maverick approach to credit....
Good luck Gordon.
Complain about this comment
Derekbarker wrote:
Yip! you do tune into the wrong frequency
What's the frequency, derek?" is your Benzedrine, uh-huh
I was brain-dead, locked out, numb, not up to speed
I thought I'd pegged you an idiot's dream
Tunnel vision from the outsider's screen
I never understood the frequency, uh-huh
You wore our expectations like an armored suit, uh-huh
I'd studied your cartoons, radio, music, TV, movies, magazines
Richard said, "Withdrawal in disgust is not the same as apathy"
A smile like the cartoon, tooth for a tooth
You said that irony was the shackles of youth
You wore a shirt of violent green, uh-huh
I never understood the frequency, uh-huh
Complain about this comment
267..Barking
"honestly! some people will do anything for attention."
Pot..Kettle..Black come to mind.
Complain about this comment
People have lost confidence in the government, that is the root of the problem.
To restore confidence a new government is needed.
Simple.
The 'loans' scheme was a duffer when the tories suggested it, and is a duffer now that labour have implemented it.
The difference is that the tories created it with a purpose based on principle - and would have adjusted it to deliver on that purpose and principal. Whereas Brown has just dropped it in, as is, with no understanding of how it should be adjusted in light of circumstance.
Brown has TWOC'd a tory car and is careering down the road in it with no idea of how to drive it.
Complain about this comment
It would appear that the key to reviving the economy in the UK is the housing market. The government needs to do two things. First Home Information Packs should be abandoned keeping Energy Information if required by the EU. HIPS deter sellers marketing properties and serve no useful purpose. Secondly to encourage lenders to lend high loan to value mortgages reintroduce Mortgage Guarantee policies. The insurance policies could be underwritten by the government.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
re Equitable Life, interesting that most of the investors were rich middle class. Anybody at the BBC by any chance?
You, or your researchers, will know of the Court judgement with regard to the guarantees. What you might like to look up is to the date on which the MPs made their decision to transfer their Equitable Life pensions to another life fund. Could it have been a couple of days before the court judegement was announced, surely not says the well informed Mr Griffin.TAG.
Complain about this comment
#266 TAG,
I would hope that we live in a more forgiving society in these modern times and that your thoughts will not materialise
However we cannot get away from the fact that politicians really are that stupid and will allow this course of action to occur if they think it will get them elected again
Hopefully the far right is still not strong enough to do any damage. Russia will be the key - I don't think that the bear changes his character so quickly, they will not hesitate to react without impunity on any nation should they feel threatened or are pushed
Perhaps we will all just be skint for a couple of years!
Or even better - we could send in Derek to negotiate!!
Complain about this comment
English posters on this forum broadly seem to recognise that we English have been far too apathetic about politics in recent decades - hence, partly, the mess we are in now.
In the short term, the politics will, through the inertia of the current system, probably produce a marginal Tory Government (buggins turn) in about 18 months or so.
That may be enough of a catalyst to cause the Scots to vote for full independence.
Which would, of course, mean that at last English people would be in a position to run England again.
In such a political situation in England, I would expect that what are currently minnows such as the English Democrats and the Greens, to gain a lot more votes.
Overall, I believe that English people will find that it will be a much more comfortable political environment and that the feeling that many English people seem to have of being disconnected from the political process would begin to evaporate.
Complain about this comment
#281
That'll be the fu, chew approach mighty duck
Quack....Quack......Quack.
Complain about this comment
Comment by mightychewster:
"However we cannot get away from the fact that politicians really are that stupid"
I didn't realise they were THAT clever.
Complain about this comment
If Gordon Brown is going to keep using Tory ideas why dont he use another idea from Cameron and call an election.
Brown is running out of ideas, I just wish he run out of number 10 and take that puppet from number 11 with him.
Just out of intrest has our wonderful leader been out and brought a new British made car or brought anything new to help kick start our ecomomy?
Complain about this comment
Responsible government will make a difference.
Right at the moment we have irresponsible government led by Gordon Brown.
As we can now see from the latest announcement by the Germans; thay are a very long way indeed from backing the Gordon Brown style of spend your way out of trouble:
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/links/258129
And what will Gordon Brown's answer be to this latest twist in the great ... nobody's following Gordon Brown's plan, scandal?
He needs to walk down Whitecall wearing a sandwich board carrying the words "My name is Gordon Brown and I am a spendaholic"
Call an election.
Complain about this comment
Dear Mr Robinson,
I read your blog with great interest. Always highly informative.
Can you possibly answer one question- why dont the government consider a 12 month stamp duty holiday on all house purchases. That will in one step stimule the housing market.
Your thoughts would be appreciated
regards
Alan
Complain about this comment
"yellowbelly1959 wrote:
Councillor used pseudonym to praise own work
"A councillor came under fire today for using a pseudonym to praise his own work.
Ben Grower posted comments under several aliases on the Daily Echo's website. "
Well he obviously must be single as Labour ministers get their husbands to praise their work!
Oddly enough Ben Grower is Labour as well! Still at least they aren't using their expenses to pay researchers to post on their behalf!
Complain about this comment
279
"It would appear that the key to reviving the economy in the UK is the housing market."
The market won't revive until until stamp duty is removed. Nobody is going to pay a huge tax on buying a house when it isn't at all clear whether house prices will go up and cover the tax. In my opinion nothing will move until there is a new government and government spending (squandering) is under control.
Complain about this comment
#285
maggywasasod,
Are the do nothing party saying they did something and if the something that the do nothing party did was another thing.
Then pray tell us want was the something that the do nothing party did.
Complain about this comment
HA HA HA - saying 'quantitative easing' instead of saying 'print money to deliberately cause inflation'.
The whole deflation story is invented to support the 'save Gordon's job' strategy.
LOJO
Complain about this comment
TAG @ 280
Yes, lift a stone and some MP's come scuttling out.
Fact - MP's have the best pension scheme in the land.
Fact - a number of MP's also had additional pensions with Equitable Life.
Now it gets murky.
Some of these MP's appear to have been 'tipped-the-wink' about Equitable Life and managed to transfer out just before that particular ship hit the rocks.
Not very honourable but there it is.
Complain about this comment
#283 Derek
:-D
Made me smile!
Interestingly enough I did have me skates on this weekend.........
Complain about this comment
278#
Excellent analogy, well put!
276#
"Whats the Frequency Derek..." LMAO. Very good.... How about "Blinded By The Sun" by The Seahorses? ("youre making excuses for the things you've never done, walking in circles, blinded by the sun...." and "...dont ask me what went wrong, the list goes on and on...and on!")... I've been thinking about fitting that one in for weeks. Someone managed to fit "The End" in here last week!
Complain about this comment
#280 TAG
You are right to raise the matter of MPs pensions and Equitable Life, but don't expect an answer here.
Only one group of investors managed to get out with anything like a reasonable recompense and that was, surprise, surprise the MPs. Everyone else suffered losses of varying degrees.
To the lifeboats? Women and children, stand to one side please - the MPs are coming through!
Complain about this comment
Another smoke and mirrors offer to business, it looks and sounds good but for the most part is meaningless. Lets take the government backed loan guarrantee scheme. You have business proposition and a good one which everyone including the bankers accept is a good one. There are more hurdles than a cross country race and by the time it is dealt with probably a no , months and months have gone by. The lastest wheeze will mean your case has to be rock solid with every assett you have to back it. Risk to the government zero ! The banks will not lend, the government really do not want to and every day more UK business's go down the plughole in many cases through no fault of their own. The bankers will look after themselves,they always have done,expect no help from them and you will not be dissapointed. The Government pretend they want to help but again do not be dissapointed when they don't really.
Complain about this comment
Quantitive easing is printing money and printing money leads to inflation.
This country is nearly bankrupt. Wake up everyone you are going to have to take a drop in your standard of living.
Complain about this comment
285#
Sorry, a what????
"British Made Car"?
Like a Honda Civic, Toyota Prius, Nissan Micra? BMW Mini? All too small for his ego.
Cant include Jag.... rebadged Fords...
Aston? No. Tarnished by association with Ford and the excesses of the Hedgies.
Bentley? Nope, owned by VW, ditto above association but with air headed footballers
Rolls? Nope, owned by BMW. Ditto above association with Alan Sugar.
That leaves.... er.... Lotus? No, owned by Malaysians with GM having a toe-hold in it for now.
Oh hang on... theres Bristol... Caterham... or the firm in Coventry that makes black cabs.... ah...... idea....
"TAXI FOR BROWN!!!!! DESTINATION HELL IN A HANDCART!!"
Complain about this comment
#290
Has Dollybarker had her tubes tied?
Certainly the incantations coming from her posts seem to be getting weirder.
Must be the latest of the government's policies to just adopt all the donothing party's policies just to make sure they cover all bases.
newlabour.. the do everything party - do everyone's policies and do everyone's money
Call an election
Complain about this comment
"derekbarker wrote:
#285
maggywasasod,
Are the do nothing party saying they did something and if the something that the do nothing party did was another thing.
Then pray tell us want was the something that the do nothing party did."
The Tories mentioned this idea months ago - those of us who follow politics heard them suggest it, we also heard Labour shout it down.
Yes the Tories "did nothing" to implement it - but they are in opposition, they can only make recommendations the party in power is the only party that can do something.
Sadly the party in power did do something - and the months later when they realised it didn't work they now have to do something else.
At the moment we have the Tories who Can't "Do nothing" because they aren't in power party (which Labour shorten to just "Do nothing") and Labour who are the "Can't do anything sensible" party!
Complain about this comment
Here you go, Derek - tune in to this.
The lunatic is on the grass
The lunatic is on the grass
Remembering games and daisy chains and laughs
Got to keep the loonies on the path
The lunatic is in the hall
The lunatics are in my hall
The paper holds their folded faces to the floor
And every day the paper boy brings more
And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
And if there is no room upon the hill
And if your head explodes with dark forbodings too
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon
The lunatic is in my head
The lunatic is in my head
You raise the blade, you make the change
You re-arrange me 'till I'm sane
You lock the door
And throw away the key
There's someone in my head but it's not me.
And if the cloud bursts, thunder in your ear
You shout and no one seems to hear
And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon
Complain about this comment
DerekBarker wrote
Are the do nothing party saying they did something and if the something that the do nothing party did was another thing.
Then pray tell us want was the something that the do nothing party did.
===========================
Derek, its what, not want, and the first sentence doesn't make any sense at all.
Or perhaps you had one of blairs famous labour (education, education, education) educations?
As to your point (assuming I can understand it) you're right the 'do nothing party' have done nothing in the last two days - except have two of their ideas 'borrowed' by labour, after labour said they would never work.
The words headless and chickens spring to mind.
Complain about this comment
RMGillatt @ 279
Property generates a lot of economic activity in the domestic market and therefore Governments should be extremely careful when 'tinkering' with this, either indirectly through things such as interest rates or directly via legislation such as HIPs.
Readers may be interested to know that the main reason why HIPs were introduced was because Ed Balls and his wife, Yvette Cooper had a bad experience when purchasing a property - honestly, I wish I was making that up.
I agree with you that just the Energy Rating Certificate should survive but due to the politics mentioned above, it is very unlikely that HIPs will be scrapped by this administration.
The most frustrating thing about this is that it is in the interests of all parties involved in a home purchase to have a streamlined, efficient purchasing process, and the industry was making good progress towards a fully electronic conveyancing process before Balls & Co. came along.
Regarding your other point about MIGs, I do not think that this is a good idea, I would prefer that we do as the French do and insist upon a decent downpayment - it is good fiscal discipline for the would-be purchaser to have to save for a deposit.
Finally, although I think that this recession will not be over until, in effect, the people decide it is over, there are some very important technical factors - one being that house prices must already have stablised - that is found a floor before a true recovery can begin.
Complain about this comment
As one businessman so eruditely put it this morning on TV - if nobody is actually buying the products we make, no loan on earth will make them.
Mandleson also implied that there would be certain criteria which businesses would have to meet before getting this government help.
Remember the VED taxes? Government crowed about this and gave us the impression that lots of cars would be eligible to a cut in tax. It turned out that only a small percentage of them were.
I wonder if they have applied the same constraints to businesses over these loans?
Complain about this comment
#290 dickbarkingmad
Now that Brown is starting to use Tory ideas perhaps something might be achived by the waste our money party.
One reason why we are in this mess is because countries followed each other like stupid sheep. Perhaps it is time Camerons ideas should be used as everyday jobs are going and nothing seems to be getting better.
Use another Tory idea and call an election but you Derek dont want that you just want to keep Brown in power at all cost because you cannot see what Brown has done to this country.
And dont come back with some line of Cameron being a novice because like Brown it getting boring.
Complain about this comment
290#
Derek, Derek...
I was going to say something about better to be the "Do Nothing" party when you dont have the chance to DO anything anyway... compared to the "Had the chance to, had the RESPONSIBILITY TO but actually DID Nothing party".... then I remembered your double-agent false-flag status...
Scratch that.
How about some words of wisdom from Holly Johnson...
"A point is all that you can score.... working for the black gas....."
Complain about this comment
301#
OR....
Us and Them ("its not what we would choose, to do" and "God Only knows which is which and who is who is who")
or
Money ("I'm alright Jack, keep your hands off my stack" as well as "But if you ask for a rise/its no surprise they're giving none away... away... awayyyyy")
Complain about this comment
afternoon from North Britain:
instead of taking everything that the daily mail , the express etc. and indeed the good old BBC say as being 100% truthful and honest here is a suggestion.
fubar@191 and susan@231 you must surely ask your selves the question
If Scotland is such a drag or pulls England down and we the Scots are spongers,wasters, and we get more government money than the English do and the Barnett formula is a disgrace. then why oh why are the 3 main unionist party's in the UK fighting tooth and nail to keep Scotland within the UK. it just doesn't add up.
You are being spun big tales by politicians and journalists.
instead of being careful what we wish for , you should be careful who you listen to!
could it possibly be that we can actually run our affairs a bit better , by no means perfect by the way , than those in England?
there is plenty of documentation out there that proves that Scotland contributes more than they receive thru the tax system, just don't expect anyone in the media to tell you about it.
no it has nothing to do with oil, and no I am not a member of any political party. regards Sid.
Complain about this comment
302 sweetanybody
You said Labour had borrowed the ideas but I think its stolen then watered them down to make them look like Brown is on the ball along with his Darling.
Complain about this comment
Is it just me or is PMQ's just getting more pointless every time? Lots of bickering and name-calling, lies and spin, and very little of substance whatsoever.
It's no wonder no-one has any confidence when this is the nearest we get to government quality control apart from elections!
Brown truly sickens me. Roll on the election.
Complain about this comment
Just followed PMQ's. All you got from Gordon was the tiresome and entirely predictable "do nothing tories", "global crisis started in america", "we are lifting children out of poverty", etc. It's called Prime Minister's questions yet he never even attempts to answer any, just wheels out the usual tractor statistics. Cameron may as well be talking to a stuffed dummy.
You have to admire the man for his brass neck, if nothing else. I wonder if he genuinley believes his own lies, he's uttered them so many times. A psychologist would have a field day.
Complain about this comment
#301
Break on through to the other side'
Sweetshop, on the good ship?(302)
fubar' ubar my friend (J morrison) rider on the storm!
Complain about this comment
Fubar and Yellow belly
Thank you for putting so eloquently a response to Munich's outrageous suggestion that I must be a member of the BNP. You did it far better than I could and hopefully he/she will feel well and truly told!
Immigration is one if not THE most serious Social and Economic problem of our island and it has been left to run riot for the last ten or eleven years under the aegis of a party who seem to think it's actually beneficial.
Bet they wouldn't want its problems in THEIR backyard though.
Complain about this comment
What will make the difference?
Crash Gordons resignation would be a massive step in the right direction....
Complain about this comment
#255munichmadrid7980
"The Government's move follows an interview given in October by immigration minister Phil Woolas who said the number of migrants coming to Britain must be curbed to control population growth.
He said increasingly tough economic conditions made immigration "extremely thorny" and warned the Government would not allow the population to expand endlessly.
Speaking to The Times, Mr Woolas said: "It's been too easy to get into this country in the past and it's going to get harder."
===
Looks like Phil Woolas, Immigration Minister is a closet BNP supporter as well.
Munich, you really need to expose these right wing extremists, Phil Woolas, Hazel Blears, Frank Field, and the Archbishop of York!
Complain about this comment
Having just watched PMQ's,I really do need some help from the more learned bloggers here.
Brown told the House that the VAT reduction has put an extra £5 per week in the average household pocket.
By my calculations,that means that the average family is spending £200 per week on,effectively,luxury items.Not food..not energy..not childrens clothing..not even petrol,as the fuel duty was increased to offset the VAT reduction.
Is it realistic to accept that the average household spends £800 per month on luxury items?
I am fully prepared to be educated.
Complain about this comment
#290:
Interesting to note that a significant number of viewers contacted The Daily Politics Show on BBC today to say how many times Gordon Brown used the phrases 'Global Crisis' and 'Do Nothing' as if by doing so they would become fact. I thought Lord Tebbit's response to Phil Woolas's baiting on this was frankly pathetic. The Conservatives need a much younger strident advocate of actual policies. His answers were rather bumbling and ineffective to my mind.
Complain about this comment
"Finally, although I think that this recession will not be over until, in effect, the people decide it is over, there are some very important technical factors - one being that house prices must already have stablised - that is found a floor before a true recovery can begin."
That is a very valid point. Personally I would like the recession to be over, or bottomed out now and we can get on with recovery as soon as possible. Good retail results from the top four helped in that regard, but were written off by the doom-mongering media as failure.
Anyone can check my previous posts to see that I truly despise this current labour maladministration, but I would not want this, nor my very strong desire to see labour obliterated at the polls, to in any way have any negative effect on the economy.
It is very easy for some people to take delight in the bad news and to talk down the economy, as it may herald a larger landslide against labour come the election.
I do NOT count myself as one of those. I desperately want to see an improvement in the economy as soon as possible and we ALL should do our part in talking it up, whilst talking down labour's responsibility for any part of the recovery.
If and when the recovery comes, it will be because people have started to feel more confident and then they will plan larger purchases.
I hope that people can do that in spite of our wretched government.
I will have NO part in talking the economy down and by so-doing, taking part in damaging this economy further and helping people to lose their jobs and homes.
Complain about this comment
#305
And so the something from the do nothing party was a big ended nothing, Hmmmm!
Thats another fine mess you've made of it !
Complain about this comment
Tried posting to labour link last night. I didn't get my posts on despite making what I thought were valid criticisms. Bit touchy, Labour, aren't they. Comes through in these posts as well - valid criticism gets met with abuse. Can't wait to leave school and get a proper job. Oh, there aren't any.
Complain about this comment
I don't want the banks to risk my hard earned savings on crack pot schemes. I'm glad they're now being more prudent. If they and The Government had been sensibly prudent in the preceding 10 years this crisis might have been averted. Non viable, badly run businesses must go to the wall. It's painful but that's a harsh reality of life. We can't prop up failing outfits and failing individuals forever. The money just isn't there.
Complain about this comment
Gordon Brown definitely needs a hair cut. The mullet adorning his scalp looks awful right now.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
the PM refers to savings of about GBP250 because of the implementation of his temporary VAT reduction.
Now then I am a simple soul and would like to point out the following.
To save GBP250 on VAT you need to spend GBP10,000 per annum on vatable goods. Now I don't know about many people but I do not have GBP10,000 of money to spend on vatable goods after all my expenditure on non vatable goods.
Would Gordon like to give me enough money to spend so that I can 'save' GBP250, even though his maths were wrong at PMQs I will stick at GBP250.
Complain about this comment
Does the term "Globalisation" mean that Politicians are self serving egotistical idiots the world over ?
Just Wondering.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
Can you look into Grodan Browns claim that the average faimaly has an extra £5 a week more to spend due to the VAT cut.
IE To be £5 better off they ned to spend £234.75 a week or around £1000 a month on VATed items.
Of my monthly bills only my phone and Sky bills are effected by this VAT change accounting for massive £1.60 a month saving.
Most food is exempt so not effected by the change.
Alcohol, cigies and fuel did have a VAT cut but the extra duty totally canceled this.
Again my mortgage and council tex are not effected!
Given that the Average faimaly income is around 30k or £2500 Before TAX, he is saying that a tipical familey spends half there take home pay on VATed items this is cearly not the case!
Yet again his figers do not add up!
Complain about this comment
Right I'm off too work while I still have a job, no thanks to Brown.
Anyone know if Derekbarkingmad has a job or is this his job?
I will look for a answer when I get back at 10;20 tonight.
Complain about this comment
310. At 12:40pm on 14 Jan 2009, djlazarus wrote:
Is it just me or is PMQ's just getting more pointless every time? Lots of bickering and name-calling, lies and spin, and very little of substance whatsoever.
===
I agree, at the moment it is pointless, it is just a circus.
The first thing that needs reform is to make it compulsory for the Prime Minister to answer the direct question put to them, not answering another question that nobody asked, but that suits their purpose.
PMQs are supposed to be about accountability, so make the PM accountable and actually answer the question put.
If the issue is fudged, then The Speaker should intervene and ask the PM again to answer the question put, rather than the Leader of the Opposition having to use up more of their allocation of 6 questions restating the point/ question.
Complain about this comment
#311:
Totally agree. Backs up what I wrote in a later as yet unpublished post.
Complain about this comment
Hello Sid
The answer to your question may be that most of our party members are Scottish.
They look after their own.
Complain about this comment
#312 derekbarkingmad
Derek has completely lost it now, where's nurse?
Complain about this comment
May be those cosy council workers, equality managers, diversity officers and other freeloaders on the private sector will have to wake up and smell the coffee.
If Brown doesn't do it (and he won't 'cos he's never made a tough decision in his life), the IMF will.
And the IMF is coming to the UK shortly.
RTE News 14 January 2009
'....but had responded to recent IMF references by the General Secretary of the Public Services' Executive, Dan Murphy.
Mr Murphy had suggested that unsustainable levels of borrowing could lead to the IMF ordering that public sector workers be laid off.'
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0114/cowenb.html
Complain about this comment
#310 djlazarus
This from Wikipedia:
"Performance on the Dispatch Box requires a quick wit, eloquence, humour and a broad grasp of varied policy issues. Prime Ministers often rely on a large, multi-annotated handbook of facts and policy matters in order to produce the facts and figures required to give a solid response to an unexpected or jarring question."
===
"Quick wit, eloquence, humour and a broad grasp of varied policy issues."
Hmm, seems nobody told Gordon about all this!
Complain about this comment
304. At 12:21pm on 14 Jan 2009, shellingout wrote:
As one businessman so eruditely put it this morning on TV - if nobody is actually buying the products we make, no loan on earth will make them.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Exactly although I wouldn't say it's erudite (that's a glue isn't it?!), I'd say it's common sense.
Until demand is put back in the economy by slashing personal tax rates and getting money into people's pockets (to do what they want to do with it!), nothing, absolutely nothing is going to change.
And, once again, it's affordable by eradicating higher rate tax perks and INCREASING VAT.
Your mantra should be to think the exact opposite to the Clown and you'll get the right answer.
Complain about this comment
310 djlazarus
PMQs has been completely void of content for ages now. It's the Speaker's fault, in my opinion.
It is quite obvious that questions are going completely unanswered by the PM. He is getting away with it because the Speaker is letting him.
I don't recall Tony Blair being this evasive at PMQs, so it probably wasn't such an issue then. However, Brown uses the opportunity to reel off a load of statistics that don't really answer the question and are probably of dubious origin.
Has anybody even bothered to substantiate what he spouts off? I know that I can't be bothered to, but I'd be interested if anybody else has. If only just a little bit.
Actually, that's probably not true. Perhaps Gordon should be obliged to provide footnotes in advance of his answers. Seems only fair.
Anyway, it's the Speaker's responsibility for keeping things orderly and ensuring people don't show contempt for the house. I'd suggest that Gordon's behaviour shows contempt.
As PMQs are a bit of a show-piece for Parliament, it doesn't surprise me that so many people are disillusioned with politicians.
Complain about this comment
#308 Sid
I think we should keep the union intact. It gives both countries an advantage both economicaly and politicaly (how much weight do you think a purely Scottish govt would hold?)
However I do agree with you with regards to the fact of governance. I think that Scotland should devolve from Whitehall and govern itself through the Scottish parliament, I also think that you shoule be given more autonomy regarding tax take and expenditure - but I wouldn't like to see full independance
Most of the ill feeling dates back hundreds of years and holds no truck nowadays (in my opinion) I would like to see the UK remain intact but for England/Scotland/Wales to have more independant government, that way we keep the advantages of the union but each country gets it's independance
What riles most English people is the voting rights of Scottish MP's. We have seen many onerous bills pushed through by the support of Scottish MP's yet we cannot vote on Scottish policy. The Barnett formula was never supposed to still be in use but hey-ho, it is. We will have to live with it for now
Basically we are jealous of the fact that you have free prescriptions/education etc. We would like that too but can't because of our political situation - you guys get a better system and we subsidise it, if we had the chance we would want the same
There are many arguments over expenditure per head and there are truths in both sides, in some ways Scotland needs the support of the English tax payer, just as we gain benefits from Scottish oil and gas revenues
I have worked in Scotland for a while and I love the place (magnificent scenery!) but I have encountered very anti-english attitudes in certain areas (almost to the point of vehemence) and yet on the other side of the country you could not wish to meet more friendly and welcoming people
It's the same in England - there are the minority of haters but most people just want to get on with their lives. I think we could have an independant Scotland and still keep the union intact
Let Scotland have an independant parliament ruling over Scottish issues, most Scots would be very happy with this and it would also appeal to the English if you can't intrude on our politics
Personally I like the union. I like Scotland and (most :-) of the Scottish people and don't want to see this torn down over petty disputes
I hope it happens one day
After we beat you in the Six Nations of course!!
Complain about this comment
313. flamepatricia and the red neck gang
You are blogging on the wrong site the people's champion (Harry) needs defending (badly)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2009/01/using_prince_harrys_words.html
Complain about this comment
313. At 12:52pm on 14 Jan 2009, flamepatricia wrote:
Fubar and Yellow belly
Thank you for putting so eloquently a response to Munich's outrageous suggestion that I must be a member of the BNP. You did it far better than I could and hopefully he/she will feel well and truly told!
===
No problem. It's a typical Labour response. "If you raise the issue, you are a racist. If I raise the issue, I am addressing a difficult issue."
Phil Woolas, currently Immigration Minister currently has the most outspoken views on the topic, but Munich doesn't brand him as a BNP rascist.
BTW, Munich is a Nottingham Forest supporting male.
Complain about this comment
Fubar-Saunders 253
Your are most welcome, in fact you put an argument together so eloquently, I am quite envious.
Complain about this comment
Does anybody know how to email Gordon Brown. If so please let me have the address.
Complain about this comment
DukeJake wrote:
Just followed PMQ's. All you got from Gordon was the tiresome and entirely predictable "do nothing tories", "global crisis started in america", "we are lifting children out of poverty", etc. It's called Prime Minister's questions yet he never even attempts to answer any
Now that is a blatent lie - most weeks he manages to deal with the planted soft questions from Labour MPs
Labour MP: What is the government doing to help the little kitten with the cut paw that was on the front of all the papers yesterday?
Brown: Good question, the Labour party will throw large wads of cash at this problem and I believe the people understand it is important as it was in the papers and people love kittens. We will also launch an expensive review to determine why the kitten cut it's paw in the first place.
The Tories wouldn't do anything about this issue because they are a do nothing party and they hate kittens.
Complain about this comment
A Labour MP has claimed dyslexia is a myth invented by education chiefs to cover up poor teaching methods.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7828121.stm
Call an election you bunch of incompetants
Complain about this comment
derekbarker wrote:
#305
And so the something from the do nothing party was a big ended nothing, Hmmmm!
Thats another fine mess you've made of it !
Another comment from the "say nothing" poster, I think you need to head on back to New Labour HQ as you are running shor on material!
Complain about this comment
With redundancies rising and vacancies shrinking, unemployment is back in the headlines. But for millions it never went away. One young couple on unemployment benefits explain how being out of work affects their lives.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7816500.stm
Call an election you bunch of incompetants
Complain about this comment
288. At 11:45am on 14 Jan 2009, Mark_WE wrote:
"yellowbelly1959 wrote:
Councillor used pseudonym to praise own work
"A councillor came under fire today for using a pseudonym to praise his own work.
Ben Grower posted comments under several aliases on the Daily Echo's website. "
Well he obviously must be single as Labour ministers get their husbands to praise their work!
Oddly enough Ben Grower is Labour as well! Still at least they aren't using their expenses to pay researchers to post on their behalf!
===
What, like the Rt Hon James Purnell MP
Secretary of State for Department of Work and Pensions (Labour)?
http://tiny.cc/jamespurnell379
Complain about this comment
#313 Patricia
I agree with the point that immigration needs to be slowed. We do benefit from immigration in some ways and we shouldn't just slam the door shut; but we need to have a coherent policy for entry
Immigrants must have skills that we need. There needs to be a points system for qualification. We cannot just allow anyone and everyone into the country - we can't sustain the numbers
I honestly believe that most of the tensions in certain areas have been caused by constant meddling from councils and government. The more you try to force people to integrate together the more they will stand apart
I grew up in inner city Leeds and my school was about 15-20% caucasion and around 80% asian and other races. I grew up with this and have seen racism up close from both sides. At my school we weren't allowed a christian assembly or nativity play. This doesn't bother me as i'm not religious but some parents were understandably upset. As a whole we all used to get along well - mainly because nobody tried forcing us to get along
There were kids who were raised not to speak English and we had translators in class - this is wrong in my opinion but those were the rules.
I moved from the city years ago and now live somewhere with very few immigrants (until recently) and my town now has quite a few asians and africans living there, we all get along fine. Most just want to live and work and raise their families as best they can - who can argue with that?
If they stop trying so hard to integrate society then we probably would just do so ourselves - without the hassle
Complain about this comment
288. At 11:45am on 14 Jan 2009, Mark_WE wrote:
"yellowbelly1959 wrote:
Councillor used pseudonym to praise own work
"A councillor came under fire today for using a pseudonym to praise his own work.
Ben Grower posted comments under several aliases on the Daily Echo's website. "
Well he obviously must be single as Labour ministers get their husbands to praise their work!
===
Or their Councillor friends, posting anonymously!
http://tiny.cc/jacquismith
Complain about this comment
308#
Sid, I would venture that the reason that the three main parties are trying to keep the union together is that we need each other, like I replied before. That, I would venture is not only pragmatism but realism.
Salmond on the other hand is a one trick pony and to my eyes no different to Brown in his level of mendacity.
Could the Scots run their own affairs perfectly well without outside interference from Westminster? Arguably so. Isnt that the whole point of the devolved assemblies? As I have said before, I lived in Aberdeenshire for 8 years; there are no doubts in my mind that there are elements of Scottish governance that the English could learn an awful lot from.
What Susan and a couple of others have hinted at is that why is the only place that doesnt have its own assembly is England? And why Scots MP's can still take seats in Parliament, but not the reverse?
Surely you must see the iniquity, the imbalance? How is that fair?
Again, I go back to what I said earlier... perception. The English are perceiving that they are getting the raw end of the deal. The press corps, again, as I've already said, will exploit that in order to sell papers. The BBC doesnt care, because it has disappeared so far up Brown's khyber post-Hutton that only the feet are visible.
I know from my own experience that the Scots are not spongers or wasters, you're being disingenious if you say that. What is doing a lot of damage is Salmond watching Braveheart too often stoking up old hatred (7 year old Kiwi kid punched in the face in Edinboro in 2006 by a grown man, for wearing an England football shirt, 31 year old woman knocked to the floor in Aberdeen last week because she "sounded English") and the PERCIEVED inequality of the Scots getting the things the English figure they should have and that they have paid for (I'm not saying the Scots DIDNT pay for it) - No university fees, prescription charges, no NHS Top Up scandal, to name but 3 - and the English being denied them, but still contributing to the running and funding of the Scottish state through direct and indirect taxation through Barnett. You rightly say that there is more to it than that and most of it never gets reported. I believe you. In terms of "Scotland putting in more to the "English" exchequer than it gets out... I cant see how that could be the case.. If you could have counted the level of corporation tax paid by the semi-defunct BOS & RBS, plus the taxation levied on the oil output, maybe... In terms of direct, naked, per-head tax levied on the populace in general.... I cant see how it is possible, although I will quite happily stand corrected.
What I'm saying is that this perception gets us nowhere apart from further apart and takes us backwards, purely to satisfy Alex Salmond's ego. Gordon couldnt care less about anything or anyone so long as he's in Number 10.
Sauce for the goose Sid. If its good enough for you Scots it should be good enough for us to.
And speaking of geese, Gordon's is well and truly cooked. Another utterly shambolic performance at PMQ's. About time it was renamed "Prime Minister's Excuses"...
Likewise, Mr Cameron... when the hell is the man going to stop pulling his punches and administer the coup de grace?? How much more time do you want???
Complain about this comment
sidthesceptic @ 308
Asks "why are the 3 main unionist party's in the UK fighting tooth and nail to keep Scotland within the UK."
For Labour, it is straightforward, they would almost never be in power at Westminster if they did not get a significant number of Scottish votes, a sort of cuckoo in an English political nest if you like.
For Conservatives, they are supposed to be a 'unionist' party so by definition, they support the Union despite being almost extinct in Scotland.
For Lib-Dems, again, they have garnered a reasonable amount of support in Scotland so would be expected to want to retain that.
A broader view might be that the whole point of being an ambitious politician is to acquire and hold power over peoples lives (strangely to 'normal' people but politicians seem to get off on that) and 'devolution' represents an amelioration of that power and therefore is not desirable.
Complain about this comment
313#
"bet they wouldnt want the problem in their backyard....."
What, you mean The Socialist Republic Of Islington???
Complain about this comment
Sidthescopric 308
I have never in my life called anybody Scottish or otherwise a sponger or a waster and I object to you saying that.
Next I am sorry to tell you this and burst your bubble, but I in fact do not read the Daily Mail or any of the newspapers you refer to, all my information comes from you very own Scottish media. I would suggest you watch the politics show on Sunday at 1 pm.
It is a fact that the Scottish economy is not affordable and is given far too much money under the Barnett formular, an independent study has proved this to be so, and needs reform.
As to the main parties wanting to keep the union, G. Brown and Labour does it for votes he knows the Scottish will not vote conservative so he is very happy to keep you in the Union. Also his constituency is in Scotland it would look very odd if we had a Scottish PM and Scotland was Independent. The other two parties believe it or believe it not, your choice, want to keep you in the Union because they know, it would be disaster for Scotland if you were not.
I note you do not mention the prejudice I have received in Scotland, if this were to happen to a Black person their would be an outcry, but its OK to treat the English people this way.
I refer you to post 253 who explains things much better than I ever could.
Complain about this comment
With this morning's post came a full colour, good quality paper "Newsletter" dated January 2009 telling me all about the things "my" Labour MP is doing in the (marginal) constituency. Front page photo of Gordon schmoozing very young children (wonder if he's had a CRB check..) and back page devoted to smearing the two local councils that are LibDem run, plus a big lie about championing more investment in the local hospital "for many years" - the championing was for the hospital be closed and services moved to an area of London that is almost inaccessible from here by public transport.
Question - how many others are receiving "softening up" communications after years of silence?
Complain about this comment
Currently on this site I count EIGHT stories of job loses.
Thats just in the firms that are considered household name enough to talk about.
That is a huge number in the overall scheme of things.
Its time this bunch of incompetants called an election before they make things even worse
Complain about this comment
322
Look closely, it's a wig.
Complain about this comment
aye_write # 263
"But remember the Scottish bit in Scottish Gas is used merely to denote a region, like an English county - it does not allude to nationhood."
Okay, almost accepted(?) for the sake of the discussion. However, now please explain The Scottish Daily Express, The Scottish Sun, AA Scotland (the auto club that is!), Scottish Power and STV (including Scotsport). Amongst many, many other examples..... Can you imagine the flak English companies would rightfully get if so many had their names prefixed "English"? Or perhaps they're a little less more worldly south of the border? (Bait!)
And that's without going even near the Scottish sporting(?) "support anyone but England" line.
Complain about this comment
324 elrond
LOL. I think you may be right - sadly.
Complain about this comment
That's ok aye-write. I don't mind you interpreting my posts nor defending me as you see fit. I am not anti-English at all. And you're quite right: these issues are too important to flannel around on.
The English govt, with the apparent willingness and collusion of many English people, is utterly and totally parasitical. They've spent centuries leeching off everyone they could find and then have the amazing, breath-taking audacity to consider themselves more civilised than those they have just robbed and beaten up. Scotland in that sense is just another in a long list of countries to have suffered in this way. Soon enough though we will be rid of these "Scottish" lackeys who do England's bidding in our country and will be free, independent and what really sticks in the Anglo craw; one of the richest countries per head in the world.
The Barnett Forumla is as risible as the idea that we live at London's largesse. We have sent thousands of billions to London to prop up your ignorant Monetarist nightmare and saw total ingratitude in return. On the contrary our economy was destroyed in nothing less than a scorched earth policy guaranteed they thought to keep us compliant and quiet. But changed times. We have time. We still have 100 yrs left of oil (as revealed by your own telegraph in spring 08) and other revenues. We will be prosperous and socially just. We will be good and constructive Europeans and will engage with a world that we have been subsumed as part of this undemocratic, archaic, absurd and unfair union from for far too long. Our Scandinavianesque destiny awaits and all you BritNat Imperialists are in for a huge huge shock.
Complain about this comment
#351 PammyAnny
Hope that was paid for from Labour Party funds, not Parliamentary expenses!
Complain about this comment
347. Fubar_Saunders
mmmm a tad unjust me thinks. I reaccl it was bluelaw that caused the stink calling the English parasites.
Theres no ill feeling for the Scots here, we dont even mind sending 11 bilion a year North of the border to keep 50 percent of the Scots in public sector jobs, heck we dont even mind paying for all those perks you keep awarding yourselves.
We do sorta get a little fed up that the Scotish PM here doesnt think the English should have the same perks though. Seems a little unjust.
But when the hand that feeds you gets called a parasite then we all get a little miffed.
A simple thank you would suffice.
Complain about this comment
PammyAnny
With this morning's post came a full colour, good quality paper "Newsletter" dated January 2009 telling me all about the things "my" Labour MP is doing in the (marginal) constituency. Front page photo of Gordon schmoozing very young children (wonder if he's had a CRB check..) and back page devoted to smearing the two local councils that are LibDem run, plus a big lie about championing more investment in the local hospital "for many years" - the championing was for the hospital be closed and services moved to an area of London that is almost inaccessible from here by public transport.
A Newsletter eh? Could this be the soft-start of the campaigning?
Complain about this comment
#253 Fubar_Saunders
Thanks for the reply. Don't feel bad about your initial response. I did not assume you were terminally unreasonable. Yes, you reacted to bluelaw and bluelaw had reacted (on Brian's blog) to 'Carrots'. No mystery. If we were respective Ambassadors for England and Scotland, we could of course get on.
"We need each other. Scotland does not have the population base to be able to sustain the level of public services that it does..."
I do not begrude you your point of view, it seems to be plausible enough, but can I say, just because Scotland at the moment can be shown to receive more per head than England from the Barnett Formula, this does not equal Scotland could not be self-sufficient. I think you know yourself it is not as simple as all that. Of course it could.
Your assertions as to Scotland's need for subsidy are to be absolutely fair merely opinion. You cannot substantiate the claim until all the relevant information is in the public domain. Why isn't it? There is debate over exactly how much oil revenue there is, over how profitable the Whiskey industry is etc. I'd say it's deliberate.
However, when you look for the facts (actually we both have reason to) they are unexpected. There is documentary evidence out there which spells out what Scotland actually does contribute in terms of revenue. I do think the SNP could do a much better job of informing people about it, but that's for another day.
The above point no doubt sounds hubristic, but leaving aside the necessary debate to show otherwise, (we'll disagree) lets assume it is correct that Scotland and England both pay their way in the Union. If you were constantly ridiculed for being an ungrateful scrounger, would you not feel the same offence as you did when bluelaw mentioned English parasites? (What if you saw this only continuing for your children?)
"You will no doubt be aware that the usual Salmond bark about Scottish oil is a misnomer..."
Nationalists would dispute your claim over international waters, however the point I think you make is more important. It's the age-old feeling of the Scots don't want to play for the British side, they're self serving in the Union. I can see that would irritate. The reasons as you say were hundreds of years in the making.
Salmond doesn't acknowledge or counter this enough. He says 'Scotland's' and then spouts best wishes for England in the same string. I don't think he actually does hate the English. I think it's like this (news story): "The British Nations today voted together to block this latest EU ['whatever'] and with their combined [more than 29] votes it's potentially enough as things stand to cause a significant upset here tomorrow." I make it up, but you get my drift. His 'Arc' was meant to be media spin after all but he can then expect the media flak. But are politicians not expected to 'politic', especially, as Alex is, in the face of such hostility? There will be a lot of talking on that other day!
I'll give you that the English feel repressed. It's an interesting point. I do wish you well. Just imagine Scotland was the bigger neighbour and Scots held the lion's share of the votes in Westminster (on such crucial events as foreign affairs). How repressed would you then feel then?
That in a nutshell are my reasons for independence, the latter being my main one. A good team we neighbours could make, just not as an amalgamation under one umbrella nation.
Hope this has been at least mildly interesting. I wasn't expecting to change your mind. (Over the economic question I realise you will still feel you're more informed than I, such is the atractive force of Unionist spin.)
:-)
a_w
Complain about this comment
Bluelaw
So you're not anti-English eh?
Could've fooled me.
Complain about this comment
#356 Bluelaw
Ouch! Get up out of the wrong side of the bed today, did we?
Complain about this comment
356 bluelaw
"I am not anti-English at all."
But the rest of your post makes that appear self-delusion.
Complain about this comment
#354 shortstirling
Good grief, you're maybe right! Actually, why 'rightly'? Would it be bad if you put English ahead of that stuff? It would perhaps make it seem like we are on a more equal footing? Even though constitutionally - numbers not obnoxious personalities! - we are not.
;->
Just for you though...what of the Scottish sportsperson who is British when victorious? The UK TV media Scotland receives through an English/British filter (culturally that's a biggie), where our own news is a mere parochial aside?
We both have grievances! We should both get things fixed?
:->
Complain about this comment
-354
Scottish versions of tabloids eg. scottish sun and scottish daily express are required as the editions run in england often contain "jock-bashing" stories which would damage the papers interests if published in scotland.
Leaving economics to one side, what influences me (as a scot) in my attitude to independence is the simple fact that being in union with england just seems unattractive when a vocal and growing portion of the english population seem so anti-scottish.
Complain about this comment
365. At 3:18pm on 14 Jan 2009, merryfulhamboy wrote:
-354
Scottish versions of tabloids eg. scottish sun and scottish daily express are required as the editions run in england often contain "jock-bashing" stories which would damage the papers interests if published in scotland.
Leaving economics to one side, what influences me (as a scot) in my attitude to independence is the simple fact that being in union with england just seems unattractive when a vocal and growing portion of the english population seem so anti-scottish.
===
"This young woman was viciously assaulted in Scotland because she has an English accent.
Lucy Newman, 22, was left with two black eyes and a broken cheekbone after a night out with friends in Aberdeen.
The beauty therapist, who is 5ft 3in tall, said: 'Two guys walked past and shouted something about the English.
'I didn't think it was aimed at me until one of them whacked me right in the face. The next thing I was lying on the ground with blood pouring from my head.'
Grampian Police, who have been unable to locate CCTV footage of the attack, said such incidents were not uncommon.
'Whilst this is clearly a despicable act, it is still unfortunately not uncommon for racially motivated incidents to take place,' Sergeant David Forsyth said."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1114567/Scars-girl-beaten-English-Scotland.html
===
Is this the sort of "jock-bashing" you had in mind?
Complain about this comment
Kiki thanks for that I have put my point on the other blog.
Complain about this comment
aye_write -
Cannot wait to see your excuse for bluelaw's latest, 356. Pow!
Posts like that tend to give extremism a bad name.
Taking just one point at random, of course the Scots took absolutely no part whatsoever in the "pink bits on the global map" did they?
Complain about this comment
#358 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
And it was a difference 'Carrots' who first posted an offensive link to bluelaw?
Come on, credit where credit's due!
;->
Or - choose a less popular name, he's making yours look bad! :-P
Complain about this comment
Nick,
a question not directly answered by Gordon Brown concerned Israel and the International Criminal Court.
Surely he would never agree to sending Israel to the courts because otherwise hem Bush and Blair would soon be stood in the dock over Iraq.
Also I do hate it when he refers to our soldiers in Afghanistan being in the front line protecting this country from the Taliban. Surely this lie should be exposed, whenever have we been threatened by the taliban in this country.TAG.
Complain about this comment
#340:
Absolutely agree with you. The back slapping self congratulatory questions directed at Gordon Brown from his own MPs in PMQs are a complete waste of time and don't do anything to address any of the more important current issues. They are merely an opportunity to conduct a series of small party political broadcasts in front of the watching TV audience. More often than not the answers are ended with stinging criticisms of The Opposition who then have no chance to respond to what has been said even if they are a distortion of the truth, aside from a bit of muttering.
Complain about this comment
368. regmitchell
Actually I think youll find they chipped in pretty wholeheartedly.
Good empire builders the Scotts
Hey Bluelaw, we arent feeling the love
down here. Will 15 billion swing it along with free dentistry
Complain about this comment
332 yellow belly
#Hmm, seems nobody told Gordon about all this
Well yellow belly it's a certianty that no one has told big mouth Cameron.
I dont like name calling but thats just a statement of fact.
Complain about this comment
Large companies often employ the services of people who seem to have an ability to look ahead.
These folks try to predict and advise said companies as to how they might market/position themselves for the future.
Hence, we find a number of companies who have quietly dropped the 'British' part of their name and have truncated it to a single character 'B'.
For example, here are three 'national' brands: BA, BG and BT.
I tend to think, as it suits me politically, that this is because these companies have been advised that 'Britain' is a dying (political) entity and who would want to be associated with that?
Complain about this comment
305 maggisgod
Now that Brown is starting to use Tory ideas perhaps something might be achived by the waste our money party.
The second part of that sentence is almost as daft as the first part
Complain about this comment
Bluelaw 356
Your sort of attitude is the one I come across every single day in Scotland, indeed it is so bad that I dont go out much in the evenings. My house has been surrounded by anti English Scots on more than one occasion shouting abuse so Im kind of used to your ugly behaviour.
Mine is not an isolated case either I had cause to take a case out against an employer for anti English behaviour by him and his staff I was told I would win it easily because there are thousands of these cases all over Scotland. I did indeed win it.
The police would tell you this kind of thing is growing with the SNP fueling it.
Your rant only goes to prove my point, that hatred is a very nasty thing.. I hope that the English will now wake up and see exactly what is happening.
Complain about this comment
#368 regmitchell
What can I say? - maybe it's no surprise, and understandable after hundreds of years of a nation being effectively disenfranchised, patronised, belittled etc. etc.!
After all, a lot of you lot are very arrogant on the back of being 'British and superior'. (Does the rest of the world really think that now? Or have successive British governments spent it all believing they could regain it, after Churchill's humiliating blank from the top table after WWII? - ouch!)
;->
Best not get into it, except that bluelaw is heartfelt and honest and not be mistaken for hateful and malicious.
:-)
Complain about this comment
Not the tired old 'Scots Empire' canard. Most Scots were barely better off than those they were forced to colonise. An aristocratic class who had merged with the English one anyway did well. But working class Scots were just as poor at the end of Empire as they were at the start. The laughable Union dividend is just that: laughable; which is why Scots languish with some of the highest incidence of poverty in the EU; yet we are forced to send billions to prop up right wing ignoramuses who loathe us.
I say again that I am not anti-English. I grew up in SE England for one thing. I'm just tired of having to listen ad infinitum to English and indeed "Scottish" ignorance on this matter. I'm no longer willing to listen politely to this nonsense because it's based on lies and deceit that have destroyed Scotland in relative terms. We have bailed you out for decades so stop your quasi-racist nonsense. The Irish are now 40% richer than you and soon enough we'll be richer than both of you and on our way to Norwegian style living standards. I for one can't wait...
Complain about this comment
#368 regmitchell
What can I say? - maybe it's no surprise, and understandable after hundreds of years of a nation being effectively disenfranchised, patronised, belittled etc. etc.!
After all, a lot of you lot are very arrogant on the back of being 'British and superior'. (Does the rest of the world really think that now? Or have successive British governments spent it all believing they could regain it, after Churchill's humiliating blank from the top table after WWII? - ouch!)
;->
Best not get into it, except that bluelaw is heartfelt and honest and not to be mistaken for hateful and malicious (like some unionists?)
:-)
Complain about this comment
366 brownisahoon - what happened to the girl was a disgrace and the 2 idiots should be jailed .
i heard the girl on a radio Scotland interview and she didn't have an English accent . so was it because she was English or was she in the wrong place at the wrong time?
you all need to understand how the so called Scottish media works.
everything goes along nice and quiet until the labour party score yet another own goal and all sorts of garbage gets printed and reported so that they don't have to report or discuss the things that matter. if you think the BBC is biased in England you should see what their colleagues in Scotland get up to.
Complain about this comment
#350. Susan-Croft wrote:
God you're pretty patronising for someone who revels in criticising others for their less than caring tone!
Re-read your post.
:-D
Complain about this comment
369. aye_write
Winding him up... guilty
Offensive... Nahhh
Complain about this comment
aye_write # 364
Point taken, thats a common whinge but in reality these days lacks substance. I don't think Jackie Stewart, David Coulthard, Chris Hoy, Andy Murray and MANY others have actually ever been portrayed as anything other than Scottish. Wherea Lewis Hamilton is always British!
However, I have to say that in general, incessant flag-waving, by any nation, leaves me very uneasy, reminiscent of dictatorships and one-party states where dissenters are simply desappeared. Okay, rugby and futba' etc are excepted!
A possible minor fly in the ointment regarding bluelaw's ambition to become the richest man in the whole world - the largest immigrant group in Scotland are the English, now getting towards half a million. Come the referendum in 2010 many of these will vote ....
Complain about this comment
grandantidote wrote:
305 maggisgod
Now that Brown is starting to use Tory ideas perhaps something might be achived by the waste our money party.
The second part of that sentence is almost as daft as the first part
I agree with part of your reply - the first part IS daft, Brown has been using Tory ideas for years!
The second part might be daft - Brown might be able to achive something (although the odds are against him!) but I am going to give Brown the benefit of the doubt and I think that you should too!
Complain about this comment
aye-write 381
Sorry you feel that way, but Im sure you will agree, bluelaw does not come across as not being anti English.
I do not recall criticising anyone for being uncaring.
Patronising well you should read yours at 379 sometimes we do not come across as we would wish to.
Complain about this comment
Nick It seems the Tories are getting more and more disgruntled at every PMQs, I'm not really surprised though, as each session ends they realise that Cameron is becoming more of a second class politician .
He has six or seven questions that he can ask, they should be relevant questions regarding the government or the country.
He is so obsessed with trying to discredit gordon brown that he keeps asking the same question over and over again ,week after boring week Who the hell cares whether Gordon Brown said no more boom and bust.
Isn't there anything more important to ask than that, he has become the boy addressing the master he has become neutered whereas GB grows in strength week by week GB has learnt the trade of the dispatch box and Cameron is losing it fast hoping that by shouting he may convince someone, It's time they got a real politicion then PMQs might become more interesting with some sensible questions asked.
Complain about this comment
bluelaw wrote:
But working class Scots were just as poor at the end of Empire as they were at the start. The laughable Union dividend is just that: laughable; which is why Scots languish with some of the highest incidence of poverty in the EU; yet we are forced to send billions to prop up right wing ignoramuses who loathe us.
It might come as a suprise to you but the working class English were also just as poor at the end of the Empire as they were at the start - the Empire benefitted the upper classes with very little of the money trickling down to the lower classes.
Scotland might have "some of the highest incidence of poverty in the EU" but the same is true of areas of England and Wales.
It remains a fact that more money per head is spent in Scotland then in England (although I think the area where the most money per head is spent is actually London).
Complain about this comment
Bluelaw a racist is a racist, get over the huge chip on your shoulder. Colonisation? That would be when the Scottish King James IV became James I then? A king (not the only one granted) with an accent so thick that he could not be understood at court? A king whose son’s rule led to the Civil War? See we can all pull out meaningless historic facts.
Also old bean look up what colony and colonialism means, hint does not happen where a Union takes place, now Scotland being an Irish colony that has historic merit.
Complain about this comment
322 sicilian
Gordon Brown definitely needs a hair cut. The mullet adorning his scalp looks awful right now.
Disingenuous and typical of a Tory who hasn't anything of consequence to say so resorts to ridiculous personel attacks.
Thought better of you Sicilian.
Complain about this comment
I condemn any anti-English behaviour in Scotland. But in my experience it is invariably English people who are always first to make issue of someone's otherness and not just with Scots. You're generally as a nation very insecure and very quick to cry foul all the while ignoring how little real respect so many of you have for people who aren't English.
Complain about this comment
Oh dear, what have we started....
360#
AW: Thank you for your reply and some interesting points, which I am sure I am going to enjoy debating with you. A refreshing change. You're right, we are never going to be in 100% agreement about everything, but thats by the by. I see a lot of interesting things in what you say and propose. And it says to me that its not just what you say, its the way you say it.
Speaking of which....
You were right about BlueLaw. No less passionate, but significantly more tactless, as his more recent post would show.
"Anger leads to hate; Hate leads to suffering... The path to the dark side, that way lies" as a certain under-tall green Jedi may have put it. :-)
Too much Braveheart, if I may be so crass as to say.
Tact and diplomacy go a long way though. I'm currently at work and for once have things to do, but I promise I will come back to the debate early this evening.
Back soon
Complain about this comment
373. At 3:42pm on 14 Jan 2009, grandantidote wrote:
332 yellow belly
#Hmm, seems nobody told Gordon about all this
Well yellow belly it's a certianty that no one has told big mouth Cameron.
I dont like name calling but thats just a statement of fact.
===
You are ill-informed, as usual. PMQs stands for Prime Minister's Questions. He gets asked a question, he is supposed to answer that question. Simple.
You don't like name calling, so why refer to Cameron as "big mouth"?
He is doing his constitutional duty by bringing the Prime Minister to account, shame that Brown doesn't do his constitutional duty by answering the questions asked.
Still, what you you expect, the man has no mandate, does he?
Complain about this comment
Nonsense. Andy Murray is constantly referred to as "Britain's number 1" until he loses and then he's back to being "the young Scot".
To their credit many English people living in Scotland not only vote SNP they are active members of it.
Complain about this comment
376. Susan-Croft
I have never been to Scotland, and those Scots I've met outside their native land I've had no particular interest to know better. I have no axes to grind because none have ever done me any personal harm, nor kindness either. However, I am seeing a very ugly side of their nature. The recent demonstrations against Israel, lead by George Galloway (amongst others) have shown a violence not seen in London for very many years. Shoes were thrown, bottles hurled, and innocent shopkeepers, neither Arab nor Israeli were attacked. A Chinese waitress was lucky to escape with her life. A group marched down sidestreets shouting ,"Taliban, Taliban!" and many had strong Scottish accents. A large percentage of the unruly demonstrators were from Scotland. They seem eager to embrace an alien culture which perhaps has elements similar to their own.
Complain about this comment
378#
Last thing before I really must get back to work, bluelaw....
You say you grew up in the South East of England..... your tone, your delivery prompted a thought, a reminder of the last time I heard that kind of tone...
Does the name John Stephenson mean anything to you?
Complain about this comment
aye_write # 379
I've enjoyed reading many of your balanced and reasoned previous posts. Now I've just read, and then re-read your 379. Whoa, whoa! Why's all that directed at me? Think you've lost it here a bit.
"A lot of you lot...", whoever that may be. Arrogant? British and superior? Aye_Write, you don't even know me. Then you go and lay something about Winston Churchill at my door? I wasn't even born then, let alone at the Act of Union.
How much racism and bigotry has started with the words, "not you personally of course, but a lot of your lot...."?
Some of my best friends are *insert applicable*, BUT ......
Complain about this comment
grandantidote wrote:
It's time they got a real politicion then PMQs might become more interesting with some sensible questions asked.
Yes, I agree but for the moment we are stuck with Gordon Brown!
Complain about this comment
Re 337
Well, I'm a Nottingham Forest female supporter and I really don't see the connection between my club and "Munich".
Mind you, we do have some very profilic contributors to the letters pages of our local newspapers advocating curling over and surrending to everything that comes out of Brussels together with unfettered immigration. Most of them seem to be members of the European Movement and one is a Labour candidate for a constituency in neighboroughing Leicestershire.
Most of the time they are little short of arrogant in the way they put over their views and criticise anyone who dares to disagree with them. And, of course, they slate people for supporting the BNP. It doesn't seem to occur to them that the views they espouse are part of the reason people are attracted to the BNP.
Complain about this comment
386. At 4:19pm on 14 Jan 2009, grandantidote
My, you are rattled aren't you?
Complain about this comment
339. telecasterdave wrote:
Does anybody know how to email Gordon Brown. If so please let me have the address.
I looked up Google, but they say No.10 is still working on how to create an eficient email. Well that's what they say! Did find, however, something called E-Mail Petition and How to Create One. This is on Google: Gordon Brown E-Mail Contact - maybe this will help you.
Complain about this comment
I know full well what befell ordinary English and Welsh people under Empire. Typical british hypocrisy to ruthlessly exploit a group of people and then claim to doing them some good. Whether they, the English and Welsh, endure high incidences of poverty is up to them. I make no apology for caring about Scotland and Scotland's poor alone until we are independent and can fashion a more internationalist approach to these problems. Scotland has "cared" enough about the rest of the UK with billions of expropriated oil revenues amongst others. Nowhere suffers in terms of poverty the way Scotland has - it's amongst the poorest countries in the EU yet produces more oil each year than Kuwait (source: BBC). All this talk of higher spending or barnett is such guff when one considers just how much Scotland contributes. Scotland has been bailing England out for decades. Time for Scotland to look after her own interests. Time for ordinary Scots to put their own interests first.
Complain about this comment
#378
I think the reponse to that post is what the phrase "Dream on" was invented for.
And before you kick off on another rant, I live in Scotland and voted SNP at the last election.
Complain about this comment
#386:
Show me some evidence that Gordon Brown is the master and and is growing in strength week by week. The polls show that his bounce has disappeared and he is once again losing ground to The Opposition parties. Time to adjust those blinkers again old boy.
Complain about this comment
I am not full of hate. I am full of passion for Scotland and anger at what has been done to her.
Complain about this comment
404 bluelaw
...trouble is, you're venting your anger onto the wrong people.
Complain about this comment
Why dream on? Just because you have a losers mentality. Doesn't mean the rest of us have to.
Complain about this comment
396. At 4:51pm on 14 Jan 2009, regmitchell wrote:
Just read your post in a rush - it was supposed to be a joke, a tease, a needle - I don't care overly about Churchill etc.!!
I thought the nationalists were supposed to take you regulars' contrubutions in good humour and I thought you would laugh at my similar over-the-top stuff there, not get riled. Did I hit a nerve? If so, sorry. It seems humour got lost in the ether - or the moderation queue. I'll review this again later on as I have to go... seriously, don't take it seriously, I didn't (I know you weren't born then etc.)
:-(
Complain about this comment
401. bluelaw
So is the oil all yours then ?
And theres me thinking a good proportion of it was off the coast of NE England.
Not to mention pretty much all of the gas.
Wonder who will win if we have to fight over the boundary.
Just a thought.
Complain about this comment
337. yellow and all the rest
Just read Flame's 243 post.
It is straight out of the BNP manifesto.
It bears no resemblance to the published views of any MP of any party since Enoch, and has absolutely nothing to do with the views of the Archbishop of any Church.
Complain about this comment
At independence 90% of current UK oil and gas revenues will be redirected to Edinburgh and not london. Scotland has its territorial waters as defined under international law and as part of the jurisdiction act 1968 when England sought its own territorial waters in order to exclude Scotland in the erroneous belief that the gas reserves found within it would be as lucrative as oil. All this changed after the OPEC crisis of 73 though of course Westminster didn't care and took our oil as its own.
The Scotland Act 1998 was Blair's attempt to punish the Scots for devolution by expropriating, under SNP protest, 9000 sq metres of Scots waters and ludicrously tried to make the boundary of English waters end near Carnoustie (north of Edinburgh). A sovereign Scotland could not be expected to accept this and rumpUK won't risk it's international reputation or censure by seeking to impose it.
The fact is we've been ripped off long enough. We've had enough and we're off. We're going to build a great country, one of the envies of the world and no longer will we endure the disastrous misrule of Westminster and its appalling London-centric Imperialistic delusuions. So keep your trident, keep your illegal wars, keep your Europhobia because we want no part of it.
Saor Alba!
Complain about this comment
243. flamepatricia
Good evening flamepatricia,
I'm surprised your posting was allowed to appear, and no doubt after it gets a few replies, calling you a BNP supporter, rascist, etc. it will be moderated and removed.
Don't you know, we mustn't speak the truth?
Complain about this comment
#409 Munichmadrid7980
Yeah, whatever.
Complain about this comment
Ok so lets say its 90%
How much is that in terms of revenue?
Complain about this comment
I canot believe I did not see it earlier but Mandelson is a Blair mole to get rid of Brown. How could Brown have fallen for it so easily.
Madelson ignores Parliament and the Lords by issuing information to the media first. This shows that Brown has no control over Mandelsons actions.
Then we have Baroness whats her name with the first daffodils of the new year. Who is she colluding with - you got it, Mandelson.
Gordy you are the weakest link goodbye.
Complain about this comment
411 phoenix, 412 yellow et al.
Of course Flame should be allowed to post such things (243) , but let's just consider the content of that post:
''Yes, I know our own English / British behave badly as well but, in all honesty, their self esteem is so low and they are pushed under as the incomers get priority treatment, they just don't have the morals or incentives to act otherwise in some cases.''
Flame is entitled to express such an opinion, but this is such a dangerous and unfounded generalisation. Or, when we read the caveat ''in some cases'' what sort of numbers are being suggested?
Despite the caveat, the impression of that post is that we, ie the indigenous English, are being swamped by immigrants, and that greater forces (ie Gordy / The EU / The New World Order) are deliberately favouring ''incomers'' for some grander purpose...
As conspiracy theories go it's a particularly combustible example. Express it if you will, but it's just sensationalist nonsense with absolutely no supporting evidence.
I personally favour controlled immigration, and do not support multiculturalism in the UK, not too dissimilar to the official Tory line.
To talk in terms of immigrants swamping 'us' is hysterical- we should never resort to hyperbole- it's hardly the English thing to do!
Complain about this comment
410#
You'd be more at home being a member of Sinn Fein, BlueLaw.
Fancy ourselves as a bit of revolutionary do we?
Tell me... why whenever the Scots populace are given referenda on the subject, why do they always say no?? Do they all have the same "loser" mentality too? Or is it those naughty English imperialists, shipping train-loads of dopplegangers over the border to fix the vote???
"We've had enough and we're off".
The only place you're likely to be off to BlueLaw, is off this board. As for your call for a communist coup, Che McGuevara, you'd be well advised to make yourself familiar with the following 6 words... Otherwise all that pent up anger is going to give you an ulcer.
It
Wont
Happen
In
Your
Lifetime.
Complain about this comment
The dangers of shaking hands with Jonah Brown cannot be overestimated. Keith Dye was proud to welcome Brown on a visit to his offices, it was the pinnacle of his 24 year news career:
Gordon Brown Visits Media Wales
WalesOnline - 9 January, 2009
After arriving under a heavy police escort just before 3pm, Mr Brown was given a tour of our multimedia newsroom by Media Wales' managing director Keith Dye ...
Trinity Mirror Redundancies
Press Gazette - 13 January 2009
Keith Dye, managing director of Media Wales has been made redundant and leaves today, following 24 years at the group. Media Wales’ finance director...
Complain about this comment
90% would give Scotland a surplus each year of billions. here's Scotland in surplus working on a lower figure of 82.5% of total revenues:
http://tinyurl.com/6dha2o
Even the GERS, the much manipulated and deeply mistrusted official govt figures not show Scotland in surplus.
Complain about this comment
pheonexarisenq,
If your bigoted post at 394 is any reflection of your character those scots you wern't interested in getting to know better had a lucky escape!
Complain about this comment
403 sicilian
I would have thought that coming from 20 points behind to 10 in a few months in the middle of a recession and after nearly twelve years in power I would have said they were doing pretty good, I think that when you turned Tory you put the blinkers on the wrong horse.
Like cameron you've nothing to offer but rather silly remarks about hair cuts.
Complain about this comment
Personal abuse doesn't do your cause any good old boy.
Complain about this comment
416# fubar- full independence may not happen in bluelaws lifetime you are correct. it will happen in stages .
at this moment in time there is a clear majority within Scotland that would and indeed will vote for full fiscal autonomy . I don't know if you are aware of the term or not it is also known as devolution max.
to the disgust of the unionist party's in Scotland the status quo is no longer acceptable to most of us in Scotland
I personally favour federalism which would sort out a whole load of the problems like the Barnett formula.
each sum part of the UK would be responsible for the collecting and use of the taxes for each nation with the elected government of each nation responsible for budgets and for once living within their means
Complain about this comment
392 yellow belly
First of all i have to admit I slipped up today and reverted to name calling of a politician not something I normally do, and I regret it. as for the rest of your post you obviously made no attempt to read with a open mind my post386 try it again you might learn something.
Complain about this comment
CarrotsneedaQUANGO2 @206,
It's bizarre system - that's why everybody is reading the blog with 'trash enabled'....
Complain about this comment
399 yellow belly
At my age you dont get rattled,you have learn't that the rather disgruntled Tories will stop at nothing todiscredit the Labour movement.take a look back though historyat the tory dirty tricks campaigns
over the years.
Complain about this comment
toffy22 @219,
At least make a decent attempt at sounding credible.
You couldn't even fool a 10 year old schoolboy with such a turgid and pathetic post.
Complain about this comment
....NOW show Scotland in surplus.
Complain about this comment
Hmmmm.... I've come late to this Scottish Independence Spat.
While I'm - in general - a unionist, it would be delightful if Scottish independence rid us here in England of the likes of Brown and Darling. It would also ensure that NuLabour would never again win an election in England.
Hmmmmmm.... what a great idea!
I've just stopped being a unionist.
Hooray for Scottish independence (just keep all your Labour MPs)
Complain about this comment
#420:
You're dead right the 20 pt lead has gone but so has the 1 pt lead recorded late in 2008.
As for personal abuse that's very much a case of pot, kettle, black old son.
Complain about this comment
#423, 425 grandantidote
Nope, read them all again, and I don't think I can learn anything from you.
Tell me what the point of PMQs is then, if it is not for Parliament to make the Executive accountable. The Prime minister is asked a question, he should answer it, not fudge the issue, resort to name-calling, divert the attention away, and tell outright lies.
If he answered a straight question, the Leader of the Opposition could then use his further allocation of supplementaries to pose further questions, not have to repeat the same question to get a straight answer.
Complain about this comment
#425:
I think you must be suffering from a bad persecution complex. The Labour movement is doing a good job of discrediting itself without any input from an outside agency.
Complain about this comment
#396 regmitchell
Right Reg, where was I?
Oh yes, cheesing you off.
I'd thought I was getting on not too bad with the locals on here - 'Carrot' and I trading, and taking, jokes...?
I reckoned I would have a break from my 'big thinks' and have a bit of fun - you seemed fun (to celebrate not getting totally mauled!).
My lines were meant to echo some of the other big statements (on the subject) made earlier, by being over the top, another send up. (Maybe I needed more smilies? I don't THINK Fubar took offence??)
There was a slight point in my humour (isn't there always in the good stuff?) but I wasn't getting on my high horse. Anyway, you got offended, which I didn't plan for. I'm used to such abuse! Scottish humour is typically very cutting.
I'm probably not in your league as far as age, gender or occupation, but that oughtn't be a barrier. And by the way thank you for also being generous about me before you were disappointed. :-)
Imagine I was grinning at you accross a pint in the pub. That effect was obviously lost across the airways - now, that's funny!!
PS I see everyone's been busy with bluelaw!
Complain about this comment
#394 phoenixarisenq
Good grief!
Watch out, did you know the nasty Scots and 'Taliban' are actually out to get you!
Don't put any posters in your padded cell....
:-P
Complain about this comment
418. bluelaw
Bluelaw , focus, focus.
I asked you what 90 percent of the oil revenue is.
Complain about this comment
Federalism isn't an answer. Scotland would still have no say over hugely crucial affairs like defence for instance which would mean Scotland still being committed to illegal wars and nuclear weapons - all contrary to the wishes of the Scottish people. We need complete independence to completely redefine our relationship not only with rumpUK but the EU and indeed the entire world.
Complain about this comment
424. MaxSceptic
No doubt it will fizzle out and the trashed comments will soon vanish.
Still waiting for Lord Peters reply.
Complain about this comment
#434
Look Carrots I know you;ve got a big