Loyalty and discretion
So why has the man who presided over the debacle of Damian Green's arrest been promoted to the top job in the Met?
Why was Sir Paul Stephenson's appointment as Metropolitan Police Commissioner "a matter of almost glutinous cross-party consensus" according to Boris Johnson, who did not have the predicted bust up with the Home Secretary Jacqui Smith?
I hear that the politicians were rather impressed that Sir Paul publicly took the rap for what many people see as the cock-ups of his subordinates (in particular Assistant Commissioner Bob Quick who was in charge of the Home Office leaks inquiry that led to Mr Green's arrest), even at a time when it must have been tempting to dump them in it.
Loyalty, discretion and sticking to the agreed line - these qualities are perhaps not as undervalued as some had feared.
I'm 
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Until the aftermath of the Green debacle and Police action is tidied up, will reserve judgement on this appointment.
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Any more info about Damian Green then, Nick, when wil the charges be dropped quietly, on another bad news day?
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Whae Hey! Nick.
Loyalty, discretion and sticking to the agreed line - these qualities are perhaps not as undervalued as some had feared.
Rascal.
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I suspect it was a row not worth having.
You would have a massive blog about it, and not bother to have any blogs about Mandleson giving away our money with no reference to the House of Commons and the other disasterous actions sanctioned by the prime mentalist.
Anyway - looking forward to the mandleson/yacht update - made any progress yet?
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Taking the blame for subordinates in a debacle eh? Wow! That must be a new honourable thing to do. What this government's ministers could learn from such events
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Good
A new boss, fresh faced, loyal and elected with majority support
Now theres an idea
Lets hope he stays out of politics and sticks to law enforcement.
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"Loyalty, discretion and sticking to the agreed line "
Clearly high priorities for Boris in his political and personal life...
Still, I suppose what he lacks himself, he needs to find in others.
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Another Common Purpose appointee.
Plus ca change.
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This seems to be a very thoughtful apolitical decision made by the two politicians.
The cynic in me would suggest that Jacqui Smith thinks that she has someone on her side in control of the Met whilst Boris thinks that he now has the person responsible for the Damien Green affair under his thumb and able to be watched closely.
Only time will tell. Let's hope it works out for the best!
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he can't be any worse than blair now can he?
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Is there a lot of prickly heat about? Ah well, you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours!
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As he is just keeping the seat warm for the over promoted & under qualified, buts ticks all the right boxes Cressida Dick, there wouldn't be much disagreement.
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Maybe Gordon Brown could learn something from the new commissioner's evident candour.
It would make such a difference if there were to be a mea culpa from Gordon Brown about the failure of the Tripartite system, the failed regulation, the collapsing banks, the bust pension schmes, the broken society, 42 day detention, the sale of our gold, the lowering of education standards to levels that universities won't accept, the relentless increasein the invasion of personal prvivacy and the erosion of our civil liberties, the alarming increase in government spending to levels of up to 70% of GDP in Scotland, Wales an the North East to make up for his failed industrial policies.
The list is potentially endless of things for which Gordon Brown should take the rap.
he should also withdraw his ridiculous assertions yesterday that he warned about financial deregulation which is rather like the man selling pies saying he put a lable on them ten years ago saying they could make you fat. He was in charge and did nothing about it; he wilfully sold the pies.
All of which is why he should;
Call an election
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I did hear a rumour that Sir Paul had a sharp exchange with AC Quick over the Damien Green affair. This is as far as that need go now.
I hope that Sir Paul's appointment will end the politicisation of the Met.
I hope also this signal's that the Met will refocus on policing for all the people of London rather than just sucking up to the ruling party.
There has been too much nonsense going on at Scotland Yard these last few years. It has to stop and now is as good a time as any.
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Post 9, I like your logic.
After all isn't the saying keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
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Speaking of loyalty and discretion, what's this I read today about Ken Clarke sounding off against another of Cameron's policies?
You'd think the shadow biz sec and the shadow chancellor would agree on their plans for married couple tax allowances wouldn't you?
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I suppose that it is good that we still have a Police Officer in charge of the Met., not another time serving Quango running our largest Police Force.
Only time will tell whether or not he is a political figure. Perhaps the report to the D.P.P./C.P.S., on the outcome of the Damian Green affair will be a good indicator. I await with interest the result due next month.
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In the words of The Who
Meet the New Boss,
Same as the old boss!
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@12 Digital
"buts ticks all the right boxes Cressida Dick"
Sounds like the female star of a certain type of movie
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If you have missed out on the top job at the Met why not try this one?
Salary excellent i.e. over GBP 125K a year plus healthcare.
Only problem must appy by Monday 2nd Feb.
It is at
http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/mpcmember
After all you couldn't do a worse job than the current lot!
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Re Post 20. I forgot you don't even have to be a UK national to apply.
You really couldn't make it up.
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#10 bradshad1
"he can't be any worse than blair now can he?"
Be careful of what you wish for, but prima facie I tend to agree with you.
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So the point of your blog is:
"Politicians appoint somebody willing to take the rap for them"
Did they offer him a job at the Treasury first?
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I heard that Gordon Brown first offered the Metropolitan Police Commissioner job to "America".
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Well... we will have to wait and see, but there seems to be a general consensus on here about it. Certainly there needs to be a de-politicisation of the Police force and the Met is as good a place to start as any.
Actions will speak louder though. Toe-ing the agreed line to me suggests however, that we're not going to see an awful lot of change.
Considering that the Police along with the Armed Services are staffed at the top more with greasy-pole climbing, pension protecting politicians who dare not rock the boat for fear of being sidelined (honorable exception being Richard Dannatt and look what Gordon did to him), Senior Officers should be able to straddle the line between doing what the Government wants but at the same time being conscious of their obligations to the public and not being afraid to speak out if government policy is either unenforcable or just plain wrong and not in the national interest.
Cant help but think that its going to be, as Pete Townsend put it...
"Meet the new boss.... same as the old boss"
Hope I'm wrong.
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Unless he ends the obsession with targets and statistics it won't make the blindest bit of difference to the actual effectiveness of the criminal justice system itself. But unfortunately that's all the fault of the Home Office. Paul Stephenson's promotion is undoubtably the result of his meeting all the ridiculous diversity/change criteria that are essential for anyone to get promoted within the police force (sorry, "police service") these days. Catching actual criminals and preventing crime is irrelevant these days for anyone wanting to get ahead.
Morale within the force is at an all time low and the gulf between the hard-working cops at the front line and the box-ticking, figure-fiddling, daft initiative-inventing senior management has never been wider - in fact the only gap wider is generally the gap between these senior managers and their albeit tiny brains.
Until senior managers within the police reconnect with front-line cops by returning to "shop-floor" style management (ie actually take an interest in what goes on instead of dreaming up new ways to fiddle figures) - by which I mean policing alongside them side by side, even perhaps (shock horror) on weekends or nightshifts, they'll never have a clue on how to save the force from total meltdown and the rest of us from anarchy.
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Ah, the Sarge is on form!! :-)
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@ 20 Why would someone who has missed out on a 253.000 GBP a year (yes 253) apply for a 125.000 GBP p.a.?
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If the lovely Jaqui is in favour of him, he is probably of the same calibre as his predecessor. Maybe he could show his mettle by opening an investigation into the corruption that appears to have been given carte blanche in the Lords. I notice your hero Gordon again failed to answer a single one of Cameron's questions today again , confining himself to his usual blame shifting and jibes of " do nothing Tories " . It seems to be wearing thin , even on the Labour sychophants' benches, the laughter is becoming fainter and more restrained each week. Could it be that the blind faith is turning to " perhaps we need a new leader " before we all fall of the gravy train. I sense a mood of desperation creeping into the Labour assurances of how Gordon the Great is saving the world.
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I am going to withhold judgement and give him a chance to prove himself, one way or the other. let's not criticise him for what he *might* be like.
I have heard glowing references on other forums from people who lived in Lancashire when he was chief constable there, so let's give the man a chance.
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Sir Ian Blair had to go and Sir Paul Stephenson is a fresh start.
This government on the other hand, since being elected has simply acted as a servant to the US; big business; big money; anything except the electorate.
New Labour has got to go and anyone else will be a fresh start.
Simple as that!
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So will his first job be to interview AC Quick then send him on "driving" leave?
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# 13 RobinJD
Not much chance of Brown taking responsibilty. Did you see PMQs? Couldn't/wouldn't answer a straight question about being responsible and the Speaker stepped up for him again.
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If they are his subordinates then he is responsible for them.
So it is his fault, and his responsibility.
It is precisely why he gets paid so much more than they do. I know nick will not understand this living on his BBC gravy train but in the real world directors of companies are actually responsbile for what there employees do.
As such there is nothing remarkable about what he has done at all.
The ephasis should be on how bad it is when politicians deny responsibility and use scapegoats rather than when someone does what they are paid for.
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#20
This must be 1 of the 500,000 vacancies that are out there! I think I could make a case for all of the requirements on the candidate profile and the interview would be a piece of cake. Just include "global" or "international" in the answer and say that it is better to do anything rather than nothing.
Regards the police, various forces are cutting the number of police (Hampshire & Dorset). There does seem to be a disconnect between the senior police, the rank and file and the public. The police forces are full of analysts collating and amassing figures which are used to show "improvement".
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If our politicians were impressed that Sir Paul publicly took the rap for his subordinates, I'm sure he'll fit in very well. Our politicians need all the scapegoats they can get to save their own sorry backsides.
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Brown was utterly inept at PMQ's again. The same old, discredited incorrect rubbish regurgitated over and over.
When will he answer a question for once, instead of repeating lies?
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I'm sorry but this is just another non-story and still nothing from young Robinson on Clarke's demolition of Mandelson's puny lacky in the Commons.
No one cares who is in charge of London's policing, so long as it isn't Blair.
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Never mind this little charade.
Tell us how many more grubby little Socialist peers have had their snouts in the trough.
And name them.
How come a Sunday newspaper could expose them but the illustrious Political Editor of the BBC couldn't?
Come on Mr Robinson, keep your finger on the pulse!
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OT, but, I wonder if the following will be a Tory policy that is long overdue for being stolen by this incompetent labour shower?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7853086.stm
"The Conservatives are considering plans for a £100m cap on government IT contracts to prevent "white elephants" such as the NHS computer system.
Instead of awarding long-term contracts to large IT companies they could open up the procurement process to smaller firms using "open source" software. "
---------------------------------------------
Another clear example of the do nothing tories coming up with good and sensible policies that will reduce government expenditure during this recession, without reducing any level of public service.
Give me a 'do nothing' party over the 'do the wrong thing' party everytime.
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Post 30 because they have missed out on the quarter of a million job they need to keep the wolf from the door.
I imagine the lunches are better at the Bank of England as well. I would imagine not having to toady to Jackboot Jackie has its benefits too!
If you don't fancy the MPC well the OECD are looking for a new Washington Head. Just think of all those carbon unfriendly first class flights around the World.
www.oecd.org/hrm/vacancies
I imagine though that any Zanulabour supporters wouldn't pass muster as the Chief Technical Advisor on Anti Corruption for the UN Development Programme
www.cm.undp.org
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Post 30. Sorry I missed the irony.
The new Commissioner is going to be on 50% more than Crash and double Jackboot Jackie his boss.
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Britons are facing a £20 billion a year 'double whammy' of tax rises and spending cuts to get Britain's creaking public finances back in order, a leading economic think tank has warned.
And it will take until 2029 for government debt to return to levels seen before the credit crunch, the Institute for Fiscal Studies predicted in its annual 'Green Budget'.
The bombshell comes as the International Monetary Fund revealed that Britain's recession would be the worst of any western country, with the economy set to shrink by almost three per cent in 2009.
The IFS said figures suggest the credit crunch will cost the Exchequer more than £50 billion a year, or 3.5 per cent of national income, in lost tax revenue and additional benefits - excluding the impact of the mammoth bank bail-outs.
The report said the Government will need to make fresh tax increases or spending cuts by the end of the next Parliament, in around 2015, to raise the money needed.
It added that, without additional intervention, public sector net debt would balloon to 60 per cent of national income and take decades to ease back.
===
We really are well and truly stuffed, thanks to Brown's economic incompetence.
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44 Economicallyliterate
The new Commissioner is going to be on 50% more than Crash and double Jackboot Jackie his boss.
........................................................
...Ah but Crash and Jackboot Jackie have an unlimited expenses account........
touche.
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The title of this forum is Loyalty and Discrection, so although this blog may appear off-topic, it concerns loyalty and maybe discretion too.
I was disturbed to learn that a suggestion has been made that money is to be paid, not only to victims of the Troubles in NI, but also to the perpetrators. My fear is that this will be jumped upon by some of our more loony politicans, and the terrorists and their families, responsible for the bombings in London will receive cash payments. I can see a certain unsavory character receiving compensation for having a hook instead of a hand, would this be a discretionary donation?
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I would rather reserve judgement
If he makes less headlines than his predecessor then he'll probably be a good one
It does also demonstrate the complete lack of talent available for the job if the incumbent gets it.
I would like Nick's views on the Lords.
I saw his tightrope walk on PMQ's, and beginning to believe that his time away has stiffened his resolve. If he could be more like Andrew Neil he might get more answers.
Then he can interview Mandy about the car bail out, and what he understands about yacht parties, and maybe even the mathematics of mortgage applications.
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Forgot
It might also be nice to actually pin down Crash on his "Boom and Bust" quotes...once upon a time those things would be handed to interviewers for maximum effect or brought out by journalists
Then a true realisation from Crash about the reports he sought to rubbish in PMQ's
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And still further evidence of the Golem's "headless chicken" approach to government with news that barely 24 hours after Mandelson's much-heralded (and swiftly demolished by Ken Clarke) package the government is already looking at another plan for the auto industry.
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#46
Don't forget that they have to be approved by Liebour Party Central as well .... that takes time.
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No mention of the Common's Treasury Committee either, didn't that show the short comings in Crash's original bank bailout?
More bad news everyday, must be time for a change, even a novice might not make this many mistakes
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Guess we'll never get to know who was really responsible for the arrest of Damien Green's arrest. Too much of a political hot potato now kicked into the long grass.
Sir Paul Stephenson comes over as a genuine enough person for the job and as Boris looks happy about it then so am I.
Like every other leader he needs the troops behind him so the proof will be in the pudding. He has a long way to go and an unenviable job to do.
Best of luck to him. He will certainly need it in the years ahead.
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Nick, How about a game of 'true or false'?
Which of the following statements is a smelly porkie?
1) The UK economy will shrink by 2.8% in 2009 - the worst contraction by any of the advanced economies. [Source: IMF]
2) Britain will be in serious debt for the next 20 years and will need to reduce spending and/or increase taxes in order to pay it off. [Source: Institute of Fiscal Studies]
3) Britain is better placed than most to withstand the global turbulence. [Source: The Rt. Hon. Gordon Brown]
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Nick,
How about an update on Browns bounce or should we say his dead cat bounce, any updates on Mandelsons mortgage or his freindship with Russian ogliarchs? or have your bosses put this off limits?
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One wonders indeed????????????
MAYBE ITS JUST DESPERATION?
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No mention of the Common's Treasury Committee either, didn't that show the short comings in Crash's original bank bailout?
----- ----- ----- -----
Interestingly, of course, in the Treasury Select Committee the chairman - a minion of the Golem - John McFall suggested the Hedge Funds had effectively robbed the tax payer by making profits out of shorting the banks. How dare they do such a thing? Such a marked contrast from "Black Wednesday" when it was all the Tory government's and - in particular - Norman Lamont's fault that George Soros made a billion.
So, shouldn't McFall have blamed the Golem for throwing money at the short-selling Hedge Funds to be consistent?
By the way, it was especially harsh to blame Lamont, who was very much against the ERM, while - naturally enough - the Golem thought it great. The Golem changed his tune, some might say oportunistically, once ERM had failed, blaming the government for a disaster he supported.
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From recollection, the Police were simply acting on interest following a complaint from the Civil service/Home office?
Why should the Police apologise for this?
Why do the people in - and around - Westminster still try to perpetuate a myth of untouchability?
Did the officers storm in and push people aside - no - they were shown in!
So that the man in charge during that period should prove a "shocker" by receiving a job he has been temporarily filling?
Journalism just rearranges it's reporting these days to suit the most unfathomable agenda. How enlightening it is when the most controversial comment is "the predicted bust up". Just saying things in incredulous tones does not make it real. Or interesting.
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Damian Green? I thought that had been swept under the carpet.
No police swoop on the House of Lords then? Oh I forgot they are Labour Lords.
Stephenson also known in the force as "Jacqui's Lacky" is probably also in Mandelson's inner circle.
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#60 Maxsceptic
I think only number three is false, but let me explain why.
1) The negative growth will be a consequence of the Conservative Party talking down the UK economy. If they didn't do that, the PBR forecast would be pretty much spot on.
2) Britain will be in serious debt for the next twenty years because the Conservatives will be in power for that period.
3) Although we are economically stable at the moment, no other country has felt the effects of the economic crisis from America. That and the fact we have a Conservative Party talking the UK into recession. If people would learn to ignore them both, then they might just go away and this statement would probably be true.
Am I right?
I know I am, because I've seen Gordon Brown's notes for his speech at Davos.
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Hey maybe we can get the new Met Commissioner to investigate our lying PM. In PMQ he says that the IFS agree that the UK is well placed. What? The same IFS that shows that our public finances are fubared for the next 20 years and that we will need to make public spending cuts of £20 bil a year? If that’s and endorsement of the British economy then the Tory’s must be the loyalist opposition ever!
This is the same day the top economists of the IMF says that the UK will have the biggest contraction of any major western economy (not quite the spin the unbiased BBC gave the story). So much for international support of Brown’s policies! Personally if I was a Labour MP I would be worried Brown is looking more and more a joke home and abroad, but I don’t think an election or leadership challenge is on the cards.
So yes get the Met to investigate Gordon “no my pants are not fire” Brown.
I do realise that this cannot happen, but a man can dream can’t he?
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My excellent friend Rahere has withdrawn over the abusive moderation. His followers on Bob Peston's blog are furious, but he advises me his decision is final.
Being accused of defamation for drawing out the functional relationship between the MP for Blackburn and the Lord of Blackburn, whose involvement in the town dates back many, many years, on this political blog was for him the final Straw. Defamation in such a case, indeed, is beyond belief, and clearly presents a political agenda in immoderation!
The only thing he wishes to observe is that thankfully, the said MP for Blackburn confirmed in Parliament by a slip of the tongue yesterday his deputy's comments he reported on here last week, that the time till THE NEXT ELECTION IS IN MONTHS. Prepare for a late summer election, and until that's over, all bets are off.
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Pahhhhhh 253k for managing 50,000 staff and a 3.5 billion
Its Chicken feed.
much more money in marketing carrots
And there is certainly a lot more dosh in marketing Scotland
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Nick,
There are serious rumours swirling around, including on Sky, that Gordon Brown was tearfully pleading with Labour MPs to vote for this third runway at Heathrow. This may be a sign that he is mentally fragile, or even about to crack up.
Now, personally speaking I like you: I think you have a good manner and I like the way you write and speak. But you must read the balance of your comments. You must realise there is a widely held opinion that you have been nobbled by Labour, and you do persistently betray a Labour bias to your writing. As does the BBC generally. For example: look at 'Yachtgate'. While George Osborne should not have been on the yacht, he was entirely innocent of any wrongdoing, and once the story broke he was completely open about the whole thing. Unlike Peter Mandelson, over whom there still seem to be real allegations of malpractice and possible corruption. Since he refused to open his diary, like Osborne did, these doubts remain today. However, your coverage was blanket and negative over Osborne, whereas you quite clearly were more nervous of giving Mandelson the same 'going over'.
This Labour government is dying, and Gordon Brown's mental stability, if not mental health is a key part of why it's dying.
If it turns out that this was a story which you COULD have investigated, but didn't, then your journalistic integrity will be blown for the rest of your career. You must be as aware of these rumours as I am, and if you don't FULLY get to the bottom of them, IN PRINT, you really will be letting all of us down as well as yourself. If you need a fig-leaf to cover yourself from the wrath of Mandy and the Labour spin-doctors, you can always say your hand has been forced by emails like this.
PLEASE, Nick, be an investigative journalist, for a bit!!
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And just on the off chance that our school governor Eatonrifle should appear:
Eaton:
Just to finish off our earlier tangle about how great our education system is.
This just about covers it:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7856001.stm
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#70
Why bother? We've already covered that, if you'd looked at Purpledogzzz's answer 112 the day before yesterday, you'd be able to reach your own conclusions on the subject.
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New Labour has destroyed our economy; 'appears' ridden with corruption; is obsessed with dismantling our civil liberties; is becoming more and more unaccountable.
New Labour must go - let the electorate decide.
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#70
When the dust settles on Brown's administration, there are going to be some serious questions asked.
Political imperatives mean that we probably won't get answers until it is no longer relevant.
In my opinion, the question that will have to be asked is how have the Labour Party allowed such a maniac to step into 10 Downing Street uncontested.
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#72
Clearly a far better state-school education now exist, more and more gaining better results and more and more going on to university.
I think the government must now look at the public education system, private schools fail their pupils, it's clear that in this new world there is no need for an elitist mindset
that believe,s in separating children from the main stream and filling their heads with
class division.
It is nothing short the brown shirt ideals to have a meaningless private education system. When clearly all the brightest of pupils come from state-schools.
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#76
Derek, if you think that more people attending university necessarily means better education, you're jumping a few logical steps and seeing what you want to see for party political purposes.
Quality, not quantity Derek.
Everyone should have the opportunity to attend university based on their abilities, not their background. But that doesn't mean everyone should attend.
For some people it is completely pointless. All they're doing is racking up debt and staying off the unemployment statistics.
That pretty much explains Labour's policy on that then....
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Derek I am going to have to respectfully disagree. While I cannot speak for my Grandmother’s experiences as a teacher, I can for my Mother who retired four years ago after teaching for about forty years, also I passed two years of teacher training back in the mid 90’s and three of my friends are secondary school teachers. We all agree that the standard of what is taught has fallen over the years.
My Mother would go further and say that the standard of teachers has dropped as well and that of my three teacher friends’ only one of them should be allowed to teach, grudgingly I agree with her. One of my teaching friend’s handwriting is like a ten-year-old’s, his spelling is truly abysmal and he cannot do mental arithmetic. If I was a parent of one of his pupils I would be horrified. He is what I would call a humanities teacher, though his title is different, to make matters worse he is head of History at his school and deputy to the whole humanities faculty.
He gained these positions in part due to pass marks his pupils receive. I might add that I met this man when we both re-sat our history GCSE’s. So this is a man whose writing and maths is below par and had to re-sit the subject he is now head of. And this is the one friend my Mother would grudgingly accept as a teacher, so you can imagine how bad the other two are!
Dumbing down subjects and teaching specifically to pass exams, that is teaching the parts of the subject they know will come up in the exams, so that passes and grades go up does not mean that the level of education is going up. Labour is not alone in this I did my aborted teacher training in the mid 90’s but things have got worse not better – no matter what a certain school governor might say.
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#77
Carrots,
No! Carrots, your what's different, not your children nor your area of residence.
Are you seriously telling me that children should be taught and encouraged in a privileged like enviroment?
What makes you think that you and your children are any better than the local parents and children living in the local council estate and attenting the local sate-schools.
In time Carrots people will judge these times like they judged the victorian times.
Carrots, people are people where ever they are, stop putting up barriers and trying to defend them.
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78. Diggers. Totally agree.
I see around me in friends, family and others, some young people who do not even have a good command of English as she is spoke and they get in to university somehow. They then drop in and out of it and go travelling the world (giving rise to stress and anxiety amongst their families and sometimes danger to themselves). Somehow they manage to pay for drugs and eventually when they sort themselves out they knuckle down to a mundane, not degree related, job which they could have risen higher in had they gone straight after school.
This gives rise to people living with partners, having children without partners, if they marry they get fed up and restless and divorce. Oh, you name it, I have seen it.
Get rid of gap years and tell them they have to attain three or four good A levels and stick at their courses otherwise they are dead ducks.
ANOTHER thing. Many to into university with their own fresh ideas and personalities and come out with looney left hippie ideals and behaviour. YUK. Seen it with my own brother and he is totally weird.
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76 Derek
Sadly now, due to experience, whenever you type things "Things are better." or "Things are good or improved." I don't take your word for it.
I looked on the internet and I found this.....
Ofsted intervenes at new academy
An academy which opened just five months ago has been put into "special measures" after parents complained to England's schools inspectors, Ofsted.
'Too many' cannot read and write
An "unacceptably" high number of people in England cannot read, write and count properly, MPs have warned.
University's 'future in doubt'
MPs have warned that the future of a university is in doubt as it faces the repayment of over £50m, after an audit found "incorrect data" on students.
Schools closed in academy strike
More than 1,000 children in south London have been sent home after teachers went on strike in protest at a plan to create three academies.
Sats fiasco could spark 'changes'
Significant changes are likely to be made to national curriculum tests, known as Sats, according to the peer who led a review into marking errors.
Where? Oh just on the BBC NEW Education link.
None of these headlines infered public or private school problems,
Most were due to Government involvment, Target chasing, interfering and bad bureaucratic management at the top.
So forgive me being sceptical.
Meanwhile back to reality.
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78. SergeantDigby
Agreed and while everyone is being fed through the university route mincer, what happened to all the apprenticeship schemes
Hardly anyone gets trained in real hard trade anymore.
So its either a Uni degree is media studies or flipping burgers.
All all the trade is being carries out by EEC immigrants and 85 percent of cars are imported.
Too many Islington lawyers in government thinking university is the only way ahead.
No wonder we all want quango jobs, we cant actually do much else.
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#76 comicalali
"It is nothing short the brown shirt ideals to have a meaningless private education system"
===
I think you need to look closer to home, Labour's ContactPoint scheme has brown shirt written all over it.
Derek, where have all your friends gone, you are now the lone voice in the wilderness?
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#76 comicalali
Perhaps your views on education would be better aimed at hypocrites like Tony Blair, Dianne Abbot and Geoff Hoon?
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Sir Ian Blairs lapdog is just the man for the job as far as the Government is concerned.
Onward and upward with The Nu Labour project of political correctness and bias in public office.
By the way Nick you must say something about the Conway report. This will balance the four Labour Peers on the make.
Your stance on the issues of the next election will be interesting.
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#85
Wrong again Carrots, the greed of individuals killed the apprenticeship scheme.
When the right to buy came into society and the local council stopped building homes and the private sector moved in,
apprenticeships stopped, the private house builder didn't want employ apprentices he wanted the fast cash and often employed people not by their trade cert's or experience, he employed people that would accept a lower wage package.
Before you go off on one again tell me how many new builds have been in and around your area over the last decade and how many young people got aprrenticeship skills and training from those builds.
How many people get ripped off by the kid-on plumber? Carrots greed is killing this nation.
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82. derekbarker
Derek what I hate most in politicians is hypocrisy.
So while youre screaming for NuLabours version of socialism, your leaders are all sending their kids to private schools.
Derek you should feel used.
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#90 comicalali
Interesting you mention greed together with "right to buy", who were al those greedy people buying council houses?
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Carrots,
You raised an interesting issue. I was having a chat the other day about the must send child to university epidemic.
Back in the day, when I was at school there were basically three types of performance in children.
The super bright kids - University
The average kids - College
And the below average kids - school leavers at 16.
What has happened is that the below average kids are still the same, however the average kids are now in the same bracket as the super bright kids.
Sadly however the overly vast spectrum of useful degrees have cheapened the worth of university degrees, too few are becoming engineers or scientists. Too many are studying Media studies and conversational Klingon.
I proudly attended a polytechnic (Southbank) when it overnight became a university, to improve its status. Which is my point. Everything now is about asinine status not actual worth.
There are plenty of retail outfits who are manned by young people with worthless degrees.
To the point now (right or wrong) where the school leavers at 16, who may have only been able to get jobs in relatively low paid jobs, but (For those with a modicum of drive) have raised their game as they worked better in the real world and got on, without the albatross of a student loan around their neck.
BTW I was an average kid.
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#92
Rather than just snipe yellowbelly,
try and give a constructive answer
how many young people have gained apprenticeship skills from private contractors over the last decade.
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91 Carrotsneeda
Yes your right carrot.
Another case of do as I say don't do as I do from James Brown and his disiples.
I hope the all had a good a good Burns night.
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More on status.
Do you know in Europe, Asia and the US, to be an engineer puts you on the same status as a doctor.
However in the good old UK when you say you're an engineer, people ask if you can fix thier car.
.....sigh....
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"who do not even have a good command of English as she is spoke"
Great stuff Pat!
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#92 comicalali
You haven't answered my question yet. After you, old chap!
"Rather than just snipe...." that's hilarious coming from you, what was your in depth analysis on andrew Neil's blog?
"2. At 11:40am on 28 Jan 2009, derekbarker wrote:
O' dear, Andrew in the same old suit.
Come on Neil, spend, spend, spend
The BBC can always replace you?"
The Barker, bit!
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So-called public schools are often pretty ropey - I know of quite a few teachers who failed their courses and were generally incompetent and coudn't get a job in mainstream education, who then ended up teaching in 'public' schools.
And yes, Blair et al should be ashamed for using them instead of abolishing them.
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Mr Barker, re: your #76, two questions if I may.
1. Who are you? You're obviously not the chap of the same name who normally drivels on in a language which only bears a passing similarity to English.
2. Why is it that only socialist types bang on about the difference in class?
There is no class.
I am the son of a painter and decorator & a nursery nurse. Born in a council flat and lived in hand-me-downs for years. What it taught me was that if I dedicated myself and worked my tail off like my parents did, I could not only 'get by', but achieve anything I wanted to - which I have.
The problem with people such as those you pretend to represent, is that they have grown up believing that the state owes them a living. A myth perpetuated by those who believe in that most un-natural of philosophies - redistribution of wealth. Why should I work my butt off to pay for someone else to be able to buy flat-screens and fags and have a dozen kids?
At a time when we are celebrating the 200th anniversary of the birth of Charles Darwin, isn't it a shame that the evolution of species and survival of the fittest only seems to apply to the rest of the animal kingdom.
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One thing Derek, my parents were one of those greedy scoundrels that bought up their council home, thus bring down society and ending apprenticeships, my Father the loyal Labour man that is delayed buying the house, so we ended up paying more for it. I remember all this quite vividly, my Mother was not happy. What I don’t remember is many new houses being built during this period or before it. Afterwards I remember huge amounts of building, I live in Thurrock Essex, home to Chafford Hundred and Lakeside and the (locally) much hated proposed Thames Gateway project.
Since people started buying their council homes, in my area at least, there has been a lot of house building, many locals would now say too much. But this house building happened in tranches, Victorian, 1920’s, Post WWII, 1960’s, then constantly from the second half of the late 1980’s. So I am not sure what all these apprentices my parents heartlessly culled built, because in Thurrock it wasn’t housing, or council buildings.
There were issues right to buy, apprentices wasn’t one of them.
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More dismal news for dolly barker's newlaboir spin machine;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/jan/29/literacy-numeracy-skills
So we're not even in the top 25 percent of OECD adaut literacy?
How, after twelve years of newlabour fiddling around with education standards, lowering pass levels to such an extent universities don't accept the qualifications and schools are rejcting them, how are newlabour supposed to e improving things?
They have failed us on education, education, education.
They have failed us in boom and bust.
Thye have failed us in reforming the House of Lords; now stuffed with corrupt newlabour cormies.
They have failed us on ending child poverty; now rising againa t an alarming rate.
Thye have failed to deliver any industrial production growth and have a worse track record on productivity gains thatn Thatcher or Major.
They have faild to deliver their promise to be tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime.
The police have been politicised.
The civil service has been politicised.
The Treasury has even become politicised.
We are at war with Iraq having provided bogus evidence to parliament.
We now have the highest level of personal indebtedness ever on record and the highest budget deficit on record and are heading for stratospheric levels of government spending unmatched by any previous government.
The banking system has all but collapsed despite billions of pounds poured into it.
This is a distaster of a govenrment heading for a lifetime of oblivion at the next election but leaving us with a debt burden that will take twenty years to pay off.
What on earth is there to be proud of in this disgraceful track record of abuse of power, privilege and money?
Call an election.
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101. You are right (or left maybe who knows!).
Barking is just that. Barking. Typical crazy mixed up kid or hybrid of a few hippie liberalist lefties.
My grandparents on both sides were simple, humble, working folk but they had values. They were honest, hardworking and believed in good manners and everybody knew where the boundaries were and never overstepped them.
We grew up after the second world war and everybody worked hard at school. Continued in education or went into training for a trade, job. We all worked whatever. I have found most of the neighbours we had and they have become doctors, solicitors, the list goes on. Nowadays somebody in the same street would be on benefits, non English speaking, criminal etc. This is FACT.
This has escalated over the last ten years or so, and actually encouraged by this stupid incompetent government. It's human nature with some if they can get away with doing s*d all, then they will.
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Let us wish Sir Paul well!
With regard to the Damian Green affair, will there be any further news about why the Speaker's account of events in his statement to the House seemed to be at odds with the letter from the Assistant Commissioner to the Home Secretary?
The Police say: They "were satisfied that the Serjeant at Arms understood that police had no power to search in the absence of a warrant "
The Speaker said: "I have been told that the police did not explain, as they are required to do...."
They can't both be right!
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Did anyone see 'The man on the moon' last night?.
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101
Sir, the rule of the jungle, like the treaty of versailles after the first world war.
A treaty that engaged the law of the jungle
in a desperate Germany, that would result in
the madness of Hitler and the superior human race mindset.
Class is created by those who divide themselves from the general public and the belief that their way, the private way is a better way.
England belongs to no man and a divided society will never reap the harvest of contentment and progressive means, by the rule of the jungle.
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@ 85, in reply to, "So its either a Uni degree in media studies or flipping burgers."
Whilst I get what your are saying and you are right. The reality is actually more like, "So its a Uni degree in media studies THEN flipping burgers."
With the Government's politically correct agenda to get half of all young people through university, the outcome is not a better educated population, although I do recognise the good intention of that policy. The reality of the policy is an indebted population with worthless certificates.
To achieve the degrees, the universities need to dumb-down the BA or BSc to a level where half of the already dumbed down youth can pass a degree.
This has lead an enormous amount of our youth into excessive levels of debt only to get a degree that has been seriously diminished in value in the workplace.
My daughter is intent on a career in science. She is in her final year at sixth form and studying physics, chemistry and Biology
The college is outside of LEA control and still has high standards. The school she left did not teach physics, chemistry or biology, but a dumbed down politically correct version of a homogenised "science" based largely on reproduction, heredity and global warming.
Despite her getting top grades and being the top of her class, this poor standard of teaching left her seriously behind the standard required when she started college and she has had to work incredibly hard to catch-up.
School standards have NOT improved Derek.
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101, 106
In your haste to insult fellow posters, I think you miss the point.
No-one is saying (I hope) that those who work hard should not get their due rewards.
However, can you explain why those who inherit huge wealth, for example, and do next to nothing should get away with doing nothing, and live a life of privelege, whilst people like your parents and mine have to work hard all their lives.
PS
Thankyou for enlightening me on the use of your phrase Pat, I don't think that necessarily makes me an oaf, I think an apology might be in order.
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104 RobinJD
So what you are saying is that James Brown has failed and has wasted our money and our time.
And only people like Delboy Barking cannot see it.
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Dear Nick
Loyalty, Discresion, Honour, Truth, dont make me Laugh, HO hO
Youve got to be joking, when push comes to shove the knives will be out before the boot, any body who plays in politics cannot be trusted, and this is a political position which goes to those who know who,? --- its not what you know its whose you know, and what they know gets you this type of Job, There is more Honour amounst thieves than there is in any Political position.Ask Gordon Brown, the labour loyalists are saying he's lost the plot.and questioning his leadership, in his case he can go back to his seat in Scotland, now theres a thought??///
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107 Pat
Your speculations about fellow posters are becoming increasingly bizarre and embarrassing.
The acquisition of a doctorate does not make you a good teacher, by the way.
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107
Yes! all those private schools that have giving society all those greedy top 10% of earners and bankers that have put us all into this recession.
Did Nick leeson go to a private school?
Christ, when people talk about the general mess in every area, they might just like to reflect on the fact that it all stems from the poor quality of the private education system.
The doctorates of kidology and total degree in greedology.......PaH.....
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@104 RobinJD, very accurate and succinctly put.
I could have written a similar list, but mine would have taken about 1000 more words and had me spending an hour or two editing the swear-words and other colourful adjectives out of it, leaving relatively tame, but sufficiently descriptively useful adjectives in place to pass moderation.
Agree with you 100%
And flamepatricia, excellent trap. They ran head-first into it, well done!!!
laughat reminded me of these two:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7857469.stm
LMAO!!!
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Standard of education has deteriorated in the last 15 years. I have many friends who are teachers in state comprehensives. They are all too quick to point out that whilst grades may be improving, kids are NOT getting any smarter.
It is borderline unethical for Labour to have dropped the standards to get better grades, which then gives the false impression that a child is better suited to a University education than apprenticeship or full time work.
Not only that, but with fees reaching upwards of £3000 a year, said student who should not even BE at university doing a relatively worthless degree is racking up £20K+ in debt only to come out at the end struggling to find a job paying more than £17K (Average university graduate wage).
Start an aprenticeship or YTS at 16, and by 21 you will have money in your pocket and a job pating AT LEAST 17K, but if you are illsuited to higher education, go throuigh the motions only to end up flipping burgers in McDonalds, you will have a MASSIVE debt to service, without the benefit of 5 years of real life work experience.
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110
If it wasn't for the rule of the jungle, as you put it, we wouldn't be here in the first place. It's worked pretty well for billions of years without applying socialist principles, so why try to fix something that ain't broken
112
It wasn't my intention to insult anyone..if I did I apologise. However, it is not only the spoiled offspring of the mega-rich (who I also detest btw) who seem to get away with doing nothing. It is those born into a culture of 'why work when the state will pay for you' who also get away with doing nothing. And the latter, by the way, are far greater in number than the former - it's just that the former don't tend to cost me, as a taxpayer, anything
My point simply was that I object to having worked my way to where I am through hard work and dedication....to have to pay for those who just can't be arsed to work because mugs like me will do the work for them.
In contrast, our unfortunate colleagues and countrymen who are finding themselves deprived of unemployment due to prevailing economic circumstance, deserve our help and support while they hopefully find alternative employment. They have my good will.
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Derek I am not sure what you are trying to say about the Law of the Jungle either with its connection to WWII or the class system. If I get you right the class system is an example of the Law of the Jungle? Logically this is false, a status quo to protect the interests of a minority, which what I understand (incorrectly I might add) is the point of a class system is not systematic of survival of the fittest. A socio-economic representation of the Law of the Jungle would be a meritocracy, the fittest rise to the top, supported by the weak.
You cannot claim that the upper classes are weak parasites, then claim that the class system follows the Law of the Jungle, parasites are never at the top of the food chain, by their nature parasites are weak, if they were strong they would be predators.
Also Britain will never prosper under a class system? I take it you have read some history. The Golden Reign (Elizabeth I) happened under a very stratified class system, the Victorian period, where Britain became a world imperial power, was also very class based. Actually it could be argued that the period of Britain’s decline post WWI, and especially post WWII, has coincided with a decline of a clearly marked class system.
Your understanding of Darwinist social ideas, Law of the Jungle/meritocracies and the class system appears from your recent post to be seriously flawed
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Laughing: Tell that to university professors, all of whom hold doctorates and are regarded as the top of the teaching ladder (otherwise why would they be teaching the best and the brightest)!
I do have to wonder who would pay for a substandard education for their children (other than possibly the average taxpayer)? It does not make logical sense, sorry.
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110. derekbarker
Derek you are so out of touch with reality its frightening to think that you have a vote.
Many people struggle to send their children to public schools, many dispense with holidays and drive 10 year old cars simply to cover the fees.
You can sum up the problems in the state sector thus:
1. To much bureaucracy and political interference
2. Poor discipline levels
3. Politically correct agendas
4. Poor sport facilities
A. Some people will kill themselves (financially) to avoid this if they can.
B. Some people can afford it without a thought
C, Some people cant afford it at all.
The biggest growth is in group A
WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ?
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Flamepatricia, please do not get me started on Tony McNulty...
Suffice to say that when he was in the Home Office he was disputing that we live in anything remotely like a police state. In defence of this he said,
"We are not knocking down doors at four in the morning with people booted and suited in riot gear. Most of the removals occur around half-five, half-six, seven in the morning."
Well phew, I am glad we have the 'time of day of removal' test for our liberal democracy!
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Nick,
Please explain the following:
London gets a new police chief = blog
IMF & IFS say the UK economy is up the creek despite Brown and Darlings claim that UK is 'best placed to ride out the recession' = no blog
Which subject do you think is of more relevance to the nation overall?
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Well, we have balance now
Conway has to repay money
I wonder if the Lords will have to pay back their money?
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111. purpleDogzzz wrote:
@ 85, in reply to, "So its either a Uni degree in media studies or flipping burgers."
Whilst I get what your are saying and you are right. The reality is actually more like, "So its a Uni degree in media studies THEN flipping burgers
LOL very good and sadly true too.
Wonder if anyone thought if there would actually be enough jobs for all these Uni grads
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#117 comicalali
No, he didn't!
"Nick Leeson's life started as a classic rags-to-riches tale. Born on 25th February 1967, he was the working class son of a plasterer from a Watford council estate, who failed his final maths exam and left school with a mere handful of qualifications. Nonetheless, in the early 1980s, he landed a job as a clerk with royal bank Coutts, followed by a string of jobs with other banks, ending up with Barings, where he quickly made an impression and was promoted to the trading floor.
===
Tony Blair went to a public school though, says it all really!
How are the holes in your feet, Del?
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112. Laughatthetories
However, can you explain why those who inherit huge wealth, for example, and do next to nothing should get away with doing nothing, and live a life of privelege, whilst people like your parents and mine have to work hard all their lives.
I can; its the same reason as why you dont have to scurrage through a rubbish tip for tonights meal and a street kid in Rio does.
Its luck.
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When you're sick as a dog
'Cos you've lost your job
There's a place to sleep,
Brown Town
Maybe you know some nice doorsteps
or benches to go to
That the Met don't know
In Brown Town
And there'll be Sally Army vans and soup kitchens by the cupfull,
Cardboard City's back again and Big Issue's also
Nothing to lose...
The wind is much colder there,
you can drown all your sorrows, forget all your friends and go
Brown Town - where everything's closed down
Brown Town - where no-one's off the dole
Brown Town - coming to everyone soon
[With apologies to Petula Clarke).
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Derek: No Nick Leeson went to Parmiter’s School, which at the time was a mixed comprehensive from there he went to a 6th form college before working for Coutts. While Parmiter’s had a grammar school style policy of intake (it being a grammar school until a few years before Leeson joined) this was decided on academic ability rather than money inline with the schools original charter.
Mr Leeson came from Watford a blue-collar area, went to a former grammar school, never attended university so his greed was not based on the upper class private education you claim. Really Derek this took me about two minutes to find, indeed it took me longer to write this! I am afraid your post must be graded D – Must try harder.
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#123
David,
I merely point to the act of division within society and the river's of blood that may flow if society accepts that wealth and the law of the jungle are the only means of evolution.
I'm sure you would agree that once the corporal gained his power, he did lavish himself with many wealthy gifts.
Look, I have no objection to the creation of the peoples car(VW) I have no objections to a society thats moves forward with the intentions for all it's citizens.
I do have objection to those who believe they are of greater worth because of a blood line.
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123. DavidRMurrell
A very good point;
but I think what Derek means is that he will never prosper under a class system.
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#123
I'm sure Mr Barker has read some history, but probably only that edited by the official socialist historian. Actual history only exists when Labour are in power - the times are golden, it never rains, everyone is happy, equal and has a job and the former aristocracy have been banished. To Siberia.
Outside of these times there only appears the words....'Here be Dragons - probably blue ones'
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Derek
Read and digest
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2074363/Private-schools-attracting-record-numbers.html
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124
David
There are many people willing to pay for a substandard education - just so they can say they send their children to private schools.
It's called snobbery.
There are many examples on this blog.
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Derek
So are they all wrong and youre right
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article3842831.ece
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125. At 12:01pm on 29 Jan 2009, CarrotsneedaQUANGO2 wrote:
110. derekbarker
"Derek you are so out of touch with reality its frightening to think that you have a vote."
You see what I mean, people already prepared to take away a persons vote because they dont share the same opinion.
Carrots cars and education...please!
Look, if the schools is a bad school, then protest, change it, demand better standards.
For god sake dont judge education by the size of your private car>
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#117 Derek Barker wrote:
Yes! all those private schools that have giving society all those greedy top 10% of earners and bankers that have put us all into this recession.
Labour bloggers are never happier than when attacking private education (except perhaps when they are attacking grammar schools). However, I want to leave the unreconstructed Class War warriors in their state of blissful ignorance, and say:
Labour appears to want to argue simultaneously:
a) the recession is global, and made in America (nothing to do with Gordon)
b) the recession is caused by the private education system in the UK
To argue the latter is to accept that the recession is made in the UK and not in America.
Finally, I'm sure all knowledgeable bloggers have noticed that according to the IMF the recession in the UK will be worse than anywhere else (2.8% for the UK against 2% developed country average). No wonder Labour would like to fight a class war (Tory toffs, Crewe and Nantwich) to distract us from Gordon's incompetence.
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#130
You make my case so well yellowbelly!!
Only when the "riches" grip does corruption grow.
"Did Nick leeson go to a private school"
Post 117
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112 laughatthetories
"However, can you explain why those who inherit huge wealth, for example, and do next to nothing should get away with doing nothing, and live a life of privelege, whilst people like your parents and mine have to work hard all their lives."
Do you yourself not work hard? Public sector employee or student, by any chance?
Only joking, didn't mean to cause any offence.
Anyway, life isn't fair kid. Better get used to it before you can't sponge off your parents any more.
I'll tell you something for nothing though, the only way to give people an equal start in life is to remove them from their parents at birth and raise them in a huge orphanage which we will build just outside Coventry.
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He's got 'em on the list ...
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Hey! two birds with one stone!
Thankyou David...et....yellowbelly.
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#139
Carrots,
Correspondent
Last Updated: 11:22AM GMT 27 Jan 2009
One group of independent schools is offering free and discounted places to provide a lifeline to families whose "circumstances may have deteriorated" because of the recession.
Elsewhere, private schools are struggling with falling numbers and some are introducing sibling and sixth form discounts.
The moves come as applications to state grammar schools have grown, with parents attempting to switch from the private to the state sector, and amid signs that state schools generally are seeing a surge in applications from pupils who would otherwise be at fee-paying schools.
Warwick Independent Schools Foundation, which runs Warwick Preparatory School, Warwick School and King's High School, where average fees are £9,000 a year, has raised the income threshold at which discounts kick in for families living in the area.
Previously, only parents with a net income of less than £20,000 a year were eligible for a free place, with a sliding discount available up to an annual income of £40,000. Now a full discount will apply up to a net income of £32,000 and financial help is on offer for families earning up to £55,000 a year
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#140, derekbarker, are you promoting the virtues of New Labour? I can't quite work it out - if you are, then your arguments appear to be ludicrous.
Mind you, the discussion has deteriorated into a fairly pointless mud slinging match.... the first to get bored and stop loses.
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#90
Regarding apprenticeships: The main reason that they have died away is that the government sponsored college courses (usually 4-6 months) and at the end qualifications were gained. Most of the cowboy plumbers and sparkies have followed this route
Proper time served tradesmen don't exist because the government remmoved the pay supplement from the building companies and substituted it for the college route. Companies will take on proper apprentices but they take on very few now as most take the 'fast track' path via a quick college course
I'm in my mid thirties now and was one of the last people I know of in my area to serve my time as a tradesman, after then everyone had a certificate!
BTW - none of the guys I served my time with are in construction any more (myself included) The government killed off apprenticeships by removing the sponsorship and giving the colleges the money
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I had in my life time hoped all this privilege stuff from socalists would stop because to be honest its all a load of eye wash.
If we all had money, we would buy ourselves a big house, education for our kids, private medical and so on. Its more to do with envy than anything else. That does not mean money in it self will brings you happiness and it does not mean it brings you satisfaction.
Why do we not then go back to the French Revolution and chop all the wealthy heads off and take their money. That sure worked didnt it. Instead we got back to exactly the same thing under Napoleon.
I come from a poor background and I have worked my butt off, to get where I am and I would fight tooth and nail to stop anyone taking it away from me, like, Labour want to.
You have to work for what you get and as Flamepatricia says too many do not want to. Im sick and tired of this working class snobbery spouted out by people like McNulty. Anyone could have got where they wanted to be, through education, if Labour had not started this Social Mobility programe which has not worked.
When I was a kid I did not envy anyone, I just knew I was going to work hard to get there too.
What you should be fighting is people like Blair and others, who say they are a socialist but are actually in it to make money for themselves. What is it now 10 million Blair has earned. Brown does not care about the people of this country he cares about his ego and power, his every action proves this.
Then there is our firend Prescott, two jags an uneducated bully, he should in no way be in high office. Another man who has earned a great deal out of politics, and yet, Hull, who he represents, still remains one of the most deprived areas, and has got worse under Labour.
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138#
Nearly as many paying for a substandard education for their own kids and everyone elses through direct taxation, eh laugh?
You can choose to pay for it, or not. Either way, the output is still the same.
Sorry mate, we've got on well before, but what your problem is with Private Education - and by default, the privileged, those who do nothing for a living (and funnily enough, dont cost you or I anything, compared to the tens of thousands who dont do anything and ARE funded by the taxpayer (dole/incapacity/invalidity/whatever the latest benefit is for buying votes) boils down to is four little words.
The Green Eyed Monster.
You can make of life whatever you want. What you get out is what you put in. Seize your opportunities. Just because you were born working class doesnt mean you've got to stay there.
Isnt that what NL's "social mobility" meant to be about???
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134* Derek Barker
Although you are very much entitled to your opinion I have to say that it doesn't really ring true to me.
The socialist-style agenda you mention doesn't make much sense as you're saying essentially that we should all support each other against the idea of being self reliant. Well that's lovely, but when you have a society of people who just want to take that support and not repay it you have a major problem. Especially when you bear in mind the number of people who actually want to be the best.
The reality is our position as a below par global power in this economic environment is in jeopardy if we don't encourage the best to reach to the top. There was a comment about Darwinism earlier and whilst I don't advocate the implications of that there is some truth to the idea expressed.
The only benefit the affluent have is that they have at some point built their wealth quite fairly. They likely took great personal risks to get there. They were driven and focussed on the right things. What is fundamentally wrong with taking advantage of that and why should they be pillored for doing the best they can for their children? And what is essentially wrong with having a private education?
If you want a truly socialist shared nation then rather than having a standard curriculum growing up we have one based excellence instead. Instead of insisting that everyone goes and subsequently pays for university, move away from this concept of not evaluating people's strengths and weaknesses. A poster was quite right earlier - university shouldn't be for everyone. If you want more apprentices then give our younger people more realistic aspirations.
What you advocate is so dangerous, so very dangerous.
On the point of danger, like the green roots comment the other day I wouldn't recommend ressurecting the rivers of blood speech. Jeez Louise.
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Anything yet on the report that more and more of our youth can't read or write?
Whatever happened to Education, Education, Education?
and whatever happened to journalists asking questions?
Yacht Parties?
Mortgage applications?
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Sarge:
Any reason for the orphanage being just "outside" Coventry instead of being "In" Coventry?
I was born and thrown/dragged up there and the place struck me as being one huge orphanage in its own right!
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#152
Ah, my fellow mortal companion fubar to the rescue....holy...holy..holy!
Keep it clean mate!
Remember no extra point for Piaget's theory?
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#145 comicalali
Not sure what point you think you have scored there, but if it makes you happy, glad to help!
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117
"Christ, when people talk about the general mess in every area, they might just like to reflect on the fact that it all stems from the poor quality of the private education system."
138
"There are many people willing to pay for a substandard education - just so they can say they send their children to private schools."
A substandard education in the private sector? I think you'll find it's the state schools that provide the substandard eduction in many cases. look at the top 1000 performing schools in 2008 (based on A-Level results)
see this --
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
and just incase the link doesn't work...a quote..."Once again private schools dominate the 2008 Financial Times rankings of England’s top-performing 1,000 institutions based on last year’s A-level results, in a relentlessly reproduced pattern generally relieved only by a smattering of grammar schools and comprehensives in middle-class areas. They account for nine of the top 10, and 17 of the top 20."
So much for education, education, education. All of these parents paying for their children's education should have left more money in the pot per pupil for the state schools, but Gordon may have spent that elsewhere!
Try getting your facts right.
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Sergeant D
"Anyway, life isn't fair kid. Better get used to it "
Would you mind passing that on to all those moaning about 'spongers'. It works both ways. Maybe you were one (a moaner not a sponger).
Can I just say that whilst I don't agree with much that you say, I do like your sense of humour, my man, it's most refreshing after the 'Call an election' drones.
Just outside Coventry would be super - I'll drive my four down forthwith - will you run the show?
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Yellowbelly, set them up kid! I'll break...
laugh...laugh....laugh
Carrot's how much do you need to earn for your children to get into the local scout group in your area or are the scouts a bit below your higher rank.
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Laughing: I one of those snobs, I will freely admit it, I am one of those people that do look down on other people. Though mine is more an intellectual snobbery, I was born with a good intellect, when I put my brain to work out I can easily grasp ideas and concepts that others find difficult, I know this since people often tell me that’s the case.
I look down on not on those who are less intellectually endowed but on those that don’t use their brains, those that do not question their beliefs. While I am lazy, I do grasp any chance I get to expand my knowledge which means I have developed a rather eclectic knowledge base.
Of those people I went to school with I have probably achieved more, or at least learnt more, than 90% of them. While I may be slightly gifted I am not that gifted, it is just that many of them did enough to get by and no more. So yes I look down on those people, because I used my brain and the chances I was given to get a good job and a good wage, I am better than those that wasted their chances. Does that make arrogant? Yep, absolutely I have no doubt I am quietly one of the most arrogant sobs I know.
As for sending my children to state or private education that will depend on a number of factors, primarily if I ever have children, secondly who I have these children with. If they earn a reasonable wage as well, then I will buy the best education I can get for my children and cannot see how that can be a bad thing. I have paid my taxes, I am more than happy to pay my 40% income tax, if I then choose to pay even more money out for my children that is no one else’s business except mine. My decision harms no one, the taxes that go towards state education will be no more wasted than if I don’t have children. Socialism for me is not everyone is forced to be the same, it is that the strong help and protect the weak so that no one suffers. I earn a good wage so I pay more taxes, fine that is fair – the horrible stealth taxes that have been imposed are a different matter. What I do with the rest of my money is my business.
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140. derekbarker
1. Above all Im a democrat, so would never take away your vote, however tempting.
Though I do sometimes wonder why a life long benefit srcounger should get the same number of votes as someone paying huge amounts of tax and / or those who contribute to the nations welfare.
2. Have you ever tried complaining at the public sector, life is just too short. Id rather simply take my business else where and I like to deal with someone who knows that I have options and who careas about the business that I provide.
3. Ref 147 dosent that just go to back up my point about how hard people struggle to avoid entering the state system.
If I had my way the state and politicians would have nothing to do with education. each child would receive a sum towards their education and parents would be allowed to spend it exactly how they liked.
Jimbrant once stated that it costs approx 6500 pa to state educate a child, that is the sum spent inside the school and does not include LEAs and central government administration. You just know that that is going add a shed load more to the cost.
Comapre that with an average of 11k in the private sector.
Its a no brianer Derek, The state provides an inferior service for a, proportionally, much higher fee.
Intersting if you do the maths for a class in the public sector: a class of 30 children costs 195,000 to run a year.
Where does the money go, the teacher only costs around 15-20% of that budget.
No wonder the private schools give you sailing lakes.
If you were a real socialist Derek you would be furious at the way NuLabour have stolen, wasted and squandered state funds. Because this practice doesnt affect the rich, but boy oh boy does it rob the poor.
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Is it not the socialist duty of those who can afford to pay, to pay for private education for their children and to pay for private healthcare for themselves so that they do not clog up the queues and take the place of someone more deserving and unable to pay, in the public sector? ;-)
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Interesting young barker brought up the sale of council houses - it seems this was first proposed by Labour in the 1970s, as Frank Field noted in an interview with The Times:
"What Field admired in Thatcher was her constancy of purpose and her ability to deliver, qualities he has found sadly lacking in Labour administrations. He illustrates his point by a further reminiscence. He had suggested to James Callaghan, Thatcher’s predecessor as PM, that Labour should be the party to sell off council houses. Callaghan asked the civil service, who reported back that it was not possible. Thatcher simply told officials to get it done."
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#172
"Though I do sometimes wonder why a life long benefit srcounger should get the same number of votes as someone paying huge amounts of tax and / or those who contribute to the nations welfare."
So only wealthy people have a right to your democracy?
O' dear Carrots, the hatred does flow from you. would you like some council?
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Del:
Not so much Piaget as Vygotsky in your case methinks. :-)
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I love how WoofWoof likes to mangle EVERY point into rich versus poor or class divide.
There are plenty of working class grafters who have made it in life through sheer determination and hard work (Alan Sugar for one)
There are equally plenty of the silver spoon brigade who are perpetual wasters and contribute nothign to society other than filling the latest nightclubs on a saturday night and getting their pics in the glossies.
This has NOTHING to do with class RO wealth.
MOST sensible posters (largely everyone except WoofWoof) direct their frustration and ire towards all the lazy wasters in life who in addition to having no desire to work hard for their lot, feel they DESERVE a handout and a step up.
Every man woman and child makes their own future, sooner WoofWoof and his benefits scrounging, lazy good for nothing wasters realise this the better.
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#178 Derek
I sometimes wonder why we invaded Iraq. It doesn't make me a warmonger, does it?
It's a perfectly fair question to question why democracy works the way it does, and also why the tax system works the way it does.
You don't need to fight every point. Just chill, man.
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Actually Derek I could almost see an argument for those who work to be given the vote, while those that don’t don’t. It would be the difference between being a subject of a country and being a citizen, I am a firm believer that a citizen has responsibilities as well as rights to their country, but also that we should reward those that fulfil these responsibilities.
Of course the difficulties with this is that some people don’t work through no fault of their own or choose quite justifiably not to work, I see no reason to punish a mother (or indeed father) staying home to look after their child, especially if it does not drain the public coffers. Also someone who sufficiently independently wealthy it could be argued almost has a duty not to work, so as not take up a wage someone else may actually need.
So no I don’t think that those that don’t work should have no voice, then I don’t believe that Carrots does either.
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Apologies all round.
I retract part of my comment #187.
I said: "It's a perfectly fair question to question why democracy works the way it does, and also why the tax system works the way it does."
I retract the word "works" in both cases.
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191. DavidRMurrell
mmmmmm I like where this is going, how about a point system.
Total contribution of tax, wealth created, public service, volunteer work etc buys you points.
Benefits claimed, time in prison, etc loses you points.
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#193
SergeantDigby wrote
"I retract the word "works" in both cases."
Are you against work' as a principle?
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Derek by definition a scrounger is either someone who borrows with no intention of returning the item (a thief) or someone who forages. I think we can agree the most common usage is the former, so do I have a problem with a thief, especially one who is ultimately stealing from me? Yes.
I do believe that there are many people who have not felt what it is to be unemployed and on the sharp end of unemployment who do not understand that no all people on benefits are scroungers, but I am not one of these. I was unemployed for a year, so I understand how soul destroying the situation can be, but I also understand the urge to stop being a benefit claimant and to become a scrounger. It almost happened to me, but I was able to wake up in time and work my way out of the situation. I never want to be benefits again, though I recognise that this may be out of my hands.
I understand the urge to become a scrounger, it does not mean that I do not find these people contemptible. They not only steal they tarnish the reputations of people on benefits who are working hard to better themselves to re-enter society. So yes I have a problem with and yes they deserve to be given a sharp lesson.
Also there is a world of difference between someone who was born into money and someone who scroungers, it boils down to fact that they are not stealing my taxes. If the rich want to be idle wastrels let them.
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What is better: to encourage individual excellence or group mediocrity?
I wouldn't mind a socialist agenda so much if the standards of behaviour and expectations for lifestyle were brilliant and high. The truth is that one size never fits all and the best will always be at the forefront.
Financial wealth is surely a sign of success in that particular area and why should it not be used. It is just a side effect from excelling in their field.
Competition makes us improve and surely must be encouraged.
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@ 201,
I too was unemployed, on and off for quite a long time. I did work on temporary contracts when I could.
I became utterly sick of it and educated myself with the knowledge required to enter my current career.
Now I am in long-term stable (so far) employment.
I admire and recognise your determination to not claim benefits. I agree. I hated being dependent on the state and the stolen income of others (tax). Even now, I may be entitled to working families tax credits, I don't know. I will not claim it. I refuse to take other people's money that I have not earned myself.
I earn enough to support my family by my own actions in the private, competitive economy. I am independent of the state, a free person of choice.
The government would love to have be dependent upon them, as their policies have created millions more on various benefits.
As I have stated many times before, all this government has done for the poor is increase their numbers and their dependence on the state.
That is the direct opposite of social mobility and runs counter to every nerve of my being.
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#204 SergeantDigby.
Synonym
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211 David
"humans are horrible selfish greedy creatures."
I think that shoud be Tories, surely?
I note that the French are revolting - seeking just the sort of measures our own stout leader has implemented already.
Vive le Gordy!
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Is this reporter a responsible person to be working for the BBC...comes over to me as being bitter and twisted
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Meet the New Boss; Same as the Old Boss...
Time will tell...
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I think The Conservatives 15 point lead and the general dissatisfacton with The Govt in the country has upset a few people on here to the extent that they are unable to accept free speech and are relying on The Mods to eliminate bad news. What is the point of posting when your comments are referred in this way? On the topic thread I hope the new Commisioner does a good job. God knows we need hinm to. He appears to have the support of both Boris Johnon and Jacqui Smith. BBC please step in to restore free speech.
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I think the person we speak must now in bed. Prepare the white coats!
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23:
Excuse the appalling spelling in this post. Have just awoken from a horrible nightmare involving Big Ears.
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In 241 23 should read 239:
Just ignore my grammar and spelling as long as the message gets through. Not yet wide awake!
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Morning BBC mods,
Could I please have an explanation of why my post was moderated?
I didn't get an e-mail yet.......cheers!
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Just in case this gets through....
Derek, look up the word synonym.
You may see an entry within the explanation of your misunderstanding:
Antonym: antonym.
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Hi Carrots I am afraid that you are right, since his posts are no more on topic than anyone else’s. That really is a shame, at the moment I am not certain what the point of responding to him is.
On topic: Come on people – What do you think the relevance of the Met Commissioner is to those of you outside London? In a way I think it is a shame that they did not find someone outside Blair’s circle. How different will the man Blair made his deputy be from his former boss?
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Crikey
What's been happening?
Why all these referrals?
Why am I always busy when the fun starts?
Dear mods - I think the appointment of Paul Stephenson is a fantastic appointment and that you do a wonderful job as well.
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Most of my blogs have been moderated, all without explanation and I have received no emails explaining why.
No point in blogging again, as the weekend is nearly upon us, and we have the English For Speakers of Foreign Languages students filling in straight from the old Kremlin and Starsi.
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Maybe we need a good old-fashioned Dixon of Dock Green to investigate the vanishing blogs. Does one need to pay a bribe to publish?
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Oh dear someone must be very upset today
I think youll find him here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/briantaylor/2009/01/banter_badinage_bombast_and_bi.html
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Dear Moderators
My apology at number 245 or 248, I can't remember which, was genuine.
I know I'm sarcastic some of the time, but please do accept my apology in the manner it was offered.
It wasn't spam. It was a love letter to free speech and those who uphold it's values.
If somebody has complained about it, fair enough. But I would honestly be upset if you thought that I was being insincere.
Hugs and kisses to you all at the BBC
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I think this unusual moderation activity of late is an experiment.
Is it an attempt to see people's response to intimidation and draconian measures on their liberty?
I am quite interested if it is, because I would have thought that people rebel against this sort of stuff. Moderation is probably causing more grief than it's worth right now.
Most people are loyal, discrete (ON TOPIC!) and defiant in the face of tyranny. That's why most tyrants are blood-thirsty mass-murdering maniacs. I won't say what the rest are like.....
I await your moderation
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39 purpledogzzz
When will he answer a question for once, instead of repeating lies?
I am sure that you are aware in your infinite wisdom, that it's a very serious offence to lie to the house, anyone who is known to have lied to the house is severely censured and made to apologise to the house now since Gordon Brown has never been challenged by Cameron of lying, and given the oportunity to do that he certainly would then it follows that your assumtion that Gordon Brown lies to the house is totally without fundation.
Questions, Boom and Bust how many times is he going to waste the oportunity of asking some relevant questions that you Tories might want to hear about, if you ask duff questions you get duff answers, I'll bet dear old Ken shudders every time Cameron gets to his feet at PMQs
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I finally received an email for one posting which was removed on this forum. I have copied here the reply I sent, and hope as it is still early in the day it will be printed.
Regards to all.
Sorry, but my blog was not off-topic. I was replying to another blogger who questioned my original posting, which had a very serious typographical error.
I am seriously concerned at the way the forum was conducted last night. It appears as a Night of The Long Knifes, with blogs being pulled off without any genuine reason.
If the BBC fears public opinions being printed for view, they shoudl cease having forums. This is a pity, because it is interesting and good to read other peoples postings.
Remember, when this government is gone, and many more have taken its place, Free Speech and the ideals this country fought for and was once famous for will still prevail.
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Hello Carrot's
Solidarity: with the worker's
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Loyalty and Discretion. I will write this in simple, cllear English to spare the moderators problems. It refers to both these qualities:
Loyalty - the state or quality of being loyal; faithfulness to commitments or obligations.
Brown promised to do his best to provide the British workers with employment. Now, strikes are taking place because foreigners are being given work instead of the desperately unemployed British. Where is the Loyalty?
Discretion - ability to make responsible decisions.
Brown should make a responsible decision. If he believes EU workers, if they can do the job, perhaps better than British workers should be employed, by the same token he should surrender his position to, say, Angela Merkel, a EU politician, and she can run this country.
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#257:
It's true that Gordon Brown does not tell direct lies. He just avoids answering contentious questions. He also makes statements that are later proved to be a unfounded. 'There will be no more boom and bust' and 'I will ensure that there will be British jobs for British workers' are current examples.
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What comments haven't broken the house rules on here?
As far as I'm concerned, everyboy's opinion on here is spam. It is of no consequence really and unsolicited.
You're all in breach of the house rules! A moderation on all your houses!
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To other people it looks like we're just swearing our heads off on here when we're not. Whereas the one where I've alluded to proper swearing has not been moderated. Yet.
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It comes to something when even the head of a leading bank criticises the current regulatory system for the banks:
===
"HSBC chairman Stephen Green has said that the current financial rules must be "fundamentally revised" as they had deepened the financial crisis.
The rules, such as capital adequacy regulations and fair value accounting, were "well intentioned", but had proved to be inadequate, he said.
Some say that these rules encourage banks to build up their capital instead of lend money to their customers.
HSBC is one of the few big banks that did not need to seek government loans.
"We do see value for our proposition... in being a clearly independent, international bank," Mr Green told the Reuters news agency at the World Economic Forum in Davos."
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#261:
Oh and one I forgot:
'Britain is best placed to cope with The GLOBAL Economic crisis'. Nice one Gordon!
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Ode to the pretender!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RIwBvjoLyZc
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barking @ 267:
Much prefer this one.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7ba7glghZ4w
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Were Loyalty and Discretion shown towards the fee-paying subscribers of this forum when postings were moderated without reason? January 29, in particular, seems an occasion when things went out of control.
This posting is NOT off-topic, indeed it is extremely relevant!
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261sicilian
#'There will be no more boom and bust'
Of course we've heard it many times, no one appears to have picked up on the inference that there was a lot of boom and bust previously under the Tories no denial about that, What seems to be extremely important that after eleven years of no boom and bust the fact that a world recession has created a world wide bust, now the aim being pursued rather absurdly by Cameron is to get Gordon to say yes there is bust.
It all seems totally pointless to me.
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He comes from the same lodge I would say and why should he not go after the house of Commons or Lords they are subject to the law they are not royalty and just because Ms Smith does not like it she should get over it its just a job that she does badly but then many who seek power can not handle it look at Mr Brown and Mr Blair I can not see this man because that is all policemen are humans in uniform give powers they can not handle will do any better than the last one already media savvy and the media police The Met will be back on the TV messing up again. All good fun for the papers and public.
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The media always have to make a big thing out of nothing which stops the police from actually doing their job..let them be i say
stock picks
tooth whitening pen
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