Hostile environment
The price that needs to be paid to get the economy moving again or the bill for the age of irresponsibility? You pays your money - and, boy, do you pay your money - and you makes your choice.
Those are the competing soundbites to describe the latest government bank rescue plan. In truth, the choice available is rather less stark since the Tories broadly back this plan. Their row with the government focuses on the need for and affordability of the fiscal stimulus - taxes and spending in other words - and how on earth we got in this mess in the first place.
What is clear, though, is that the prize in politics will go to those who can describe a future for the British economy which does not depend on ever-expanding banks lending ever larger sums to Russian oligarchs. Peter Mandelson made that point in rather more diplomatic language in a speech at the weekend.
That makes Ken Clarke's appointment so fascinating. He's by instinct hostile to London, keener on manufacturing than banking and loves a scrap. Labour will hope to present a 68-year-old who doesn't own a mobile and wears Hush Puppies as more in touch with the past than the future.
Then there is the small matter of Europe. Is greater integration a vital part of its future or irrelevant to it?
Politics will soon focus on who can get us through this hostile environment. Talking of which, I am rather inconveniently spending the week away training to deal with just that in war zones around the world - so normal service may be interrupted a little.
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Nick,
I am fascinated by your last comment, what training exactly is it that what my taxes are paying for!
As for the actual thread of your blog I seriously cannot believe that people still refer to the banks as being nationalised, which part of the bank do you actually nationalise, the UK bit or the Global bit.
There is trouble brewing, we are being bankrupted by our foreign occupations and wars. The world will actually move to the right, I have said it before Nick, we have to just let go, let asset values find a new level, if you fail so be it because if you don't the money will just disappear, just as it did in 1928/29. I have said before as well that there are now two days which have changed the world, 9/11 Twin Towers, 9/15 Lehman Brothers.TAG.
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Will you be wearing a flak jacket when reporting from Downing St in future?
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The very real problem as opposed to glib slogans like real jobs, is that the fundamental financial situation of the banks is terrible. The Gov is latched onto old ideology where big is better eg Lloyds Group. But the size of these institutions makes them very difficult to manage.
How can a board of directors keep tabs on loans to businesses around the world. Investment banking at the "coal face" is completely different from 30 years ago when the current directors worked in that environment. Some of the deals are derived from complex mathematical algorithms that only someone with a PhD could understand.
The economy will get going eventually given time. Unfortunately for Gordy it will be a lot of time. Of course if we stopped throwing hundreds of billions of pounds at Afghanistan and Iraq diverting it to the economy it might be less time.
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Of course it is the first tentative step towards nationalising all the banks and then consolodating them into all the big world banks. Not in my lifetime? I really don't know but this government will deny it of course. Heard Alastair Darling on Radio 4 playing it down.
They've started so they want to finish - but not if they get kicked out of government. Woops.
Unfortunately, in my view, Ken Clarke is too pro Europen an but he feels there is so much dissent towards it from the public we will probably be pulled completely into it after a generation of us has died and moved on.
Oh dear!
One positive is, he still is a Big Beast, and Brown and Mandy will be very afraid right now.
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Dear Nick,
If this is Plan B and it fails, what is left?
Plans I, M and F!
Xxxx
What happened to the admendment to the FOI that exempts MP's from disclosing their expenses? Is it news or just 'froth'?
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Nick,
So are you being re-shuffled yourself?
If you are doing war zones, who is going to be the new UK political editor?
Clearly we are now paying the bills for the 'age of irresponsibility'. Labour are on the wrong side of the argument and they know it - thus rather than debate- Labour will try and draw the Conservatives into internal open war on the topic of Europe.
The Conservatives must rise above the spin and back stabbing that typifies Gordon Brown, Mandelson and the Labour party and define a coherent vision for rescuing the country.
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Well, good luck in war zones !
As for the poor old UK - not yet a war zone - we are ill-served by a government that is so far behind the curve, and seems only able to be playing catch-up all the time.
So much of waht is happening was forseeable - and forseen - a year ago.
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Shame on you forgoing the real story in favour of an old split on Europe - something that hasn't been a story since Tony Blair was PM. Gordon's euroscepticism stopped that being important years ago.
The real story - the man who created the boom, with the legacy he gave Brown in 1997 - against the team who turned it into the worst bust in half a century. Maybe it is government by mobile phone and text soundbite which is key to the problem.
For example, the awful, stuttering performance by Mr Darling this morning - obviously unhappy at defending something which wasn't even his policy.
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Some time last year NS and I wrote to me with a questionnaire on my personal finances. (I have an ISA and Guaranteed Equity Bonds with them!).
There was the carrot of a cash prize draw and my name was not on the form, so I elected to complete and return it.
Now I am wondering if this was general research to help them decide on the forthcoming "economic downturn" and all its other names. Probably was. I think they planned this as a sort of purging of this country (then the world) economcally and socially.
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So Nick, who have you upset (as if we didn't know) that you're being taken from the warmth and security of the Westminster Bubble and cast upon the war-zones of the world?
(Or does that mean anywhere outside the SW1 postcode?)
Stick to your current modus operandi and you won't go far wrong: wrap up warm and keep your head below the parapet.
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At least in a war zone you'll quickly realise the ordnance coming towards you is going to kill you. If only you could believe the rubbish thrown in your direction by the government was as honest.It may not kill you, but if you give it any credence, you'll spend the rest of your life paying for it. Any statement Mandelson makes, has to be viewed with just as much suspicion as the statements emanating from Brown and Darling. I'm surprised that you haven't commented on Brown shooting off to Egypt for the photo shoot with the other numpties from the EU pretending they had something to do with the ceasefire. Typical of the EU, watching the fighting from afar then trying to take credit for the peace, where no doubt the French will be hoping to replenish Hammas' arsenal , paid for by the largesse Brown is so generously handing out to a terrorist organisation in the guise of humanitarian aid
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That's it, get some slurs hurled at Clarke while praising Mandelson. Typical Nu-Labour bias as we have come to expect from Robinson.
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Nick,
I listened to part of the Gordon Brown Alistair Darling speaches this morning. If GB goes on more about the 'scourge of unemployment' then he has being in cloud cuckoo land for years.
The levels of unemployment in this country are massive, the so called disabled, the uneducated masses who could never do a job, the early retirees who don't sign on because there is nothing in it for them, the pensioners who get by on a pittance...
In the meantime we must not forget that the banks who have got us into this trouble used to be building societies, also the main banks in touble have Scottish links, Royal Bank of Scotland and Bank of Scotlan, I mean talk about pork barrel politics.
It is the former building societies which thought they could be banks that have got us into this trouble. Why should we bail out the greedy who have buy-to-let mortgages, and people who would not moan if they profit out of their property investments.
There must be a general election, confidence in this country will plummet further as it is realised that we are so heading for the knackers yard This is a Titanic economy, they said it would never sink, well we have hit the berg again, and it is about time to take to the lifeboats, only it is not women and children first it is politicians and bankers who are the rats leaving a sinking ship.
What I thought interesting was the John Humphries interview this morning with an executive of Royal Bank of Scotland, who used the words 'fess up' which I thought was some sort of low life term to admit to some crime or misdemanour. When will the government order an inquiry into the banking crisis, and the war in Iraq.
Finally, Brown refers to the credit crunch because the banks won't lend. May I suggest that he also looks at it the other way around, this is a debit crunch because why should I borrow, that is get into debt, neither a lender nor a borrower be, never has this been more true. I'm not lending my money to anybody so that they can make money on my money and not give me a fair return.TAG.
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If the Royal Bank of Scotland has just announced more huge losses, surely this bail out money will go towards re-financing their coffers before they start to lend. I'm assuming they're not on their own and other banks are in the same position.
If the money we give them has to re-balance their books, they won't be lending any time soon. They can't lend us money they don't have, can they!
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For the first time in my life I may vote conservative at the next Election!
I've been an dedicated liberal for the last decade or so, but increasingly i've been put off by there loony green policies.
Don't get me wrong the Conservatives have a few scorches in their closet also, but I'm hoping once elected the cold light of reality will mean that the majority of this clap trap will go out through the window.
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KEN CLARKE
A talented guy who tells the truth
when making applications for credit.
UNLIKE SOME?
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Hi Nick,
Your comment about Peter Mandelson and Russian oligarchs is very intesting.
Particularly since Derpiaska is knocking on Mandy's door to bail out the LDV van-makers he bought from Rover.
I think it really is time to start asking questions about what REALLY happened on Derpiaska's yacht, the Queen K, and exactly why Nathaniel Rothschild got so hot under the collar when news of the meeting was leaked.
See you in the casbah.
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Nick,
people, sorry Gordon Brown, keep talking about mortgages, and that help will be given to people if they get into trouble. Well what about those people who could never get a mortgage, those people who have to rent.
When will it be pointed out that if people make money at their business then it is profit, if you make a profit then you pay taxes on that profit. If you employ people then taxes are deducted from those people which are then paid to the Inland Revenue.
It is not my problem if people who have made profits have not kept enough back to meet their liabilities, if they have not paid over taxes deducted from employees then that is fraud. The banks must not be part of a fraud, however, the government knows that the money has gone, squandered if you like.
It is not the bankers who are at fault, it is the people, us who are to blame, when will people take responsibilty for their actions, they have choices, they have free will, if you can't stand the heat in the kitchen then get out.TAG.
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Ken is a good example of someone who can use hush puppies on ice. Cameron has now shown he is confident enough to employ a Big Beast with some views that are different from his own on Europe. The Tories are finally showing that they are preparing themselves for government in 2010. Labour smear tactics will not work so well and Osborne will have someone to protect his weak flanks.
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It is good to see Ken Clarke back. He is the sort of Tory I like: cheerful, bluff, straight to the point and courteous all at the same time. There never have been many of that sort in that party.
I am delighted to learn Nick, that you see him as a manufacturing man, hostile to the City and reluctant to use a mobile. Just like me!
Deep joy: we are starting to get somewhere at last.
I will repeat that I will vote for any party, excluding the BNP and Hamas, that will get rid of this incompetent government.
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Ken Clarke may be an older gentleman but I think that he's a fair idea of how to run an economy; the same cannot be said of Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling
I like Ken Clarke and I think he will have a lot of good initiatives. He does have a lot of experience and is quite honest, I think he will bring a lot of clout to the tory front bench. I do think he should take the post of Shadow Chancellor though - he is after all very well proven on that front! Who knows - maybe he was asked to do that but preferred not to ruffle Osbournes feathers?
Anyway - I think he is a good addition and the tories do need his outspoken views. Each party needs to have their opposites, in all instances of viewpoint
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Nick -- you say:
"What is clear, though, is that the prize in politics will go to those who can describe a future for the British economy which does not depend on ever-expanding banks lending ever larger sums to Russian oligarchs. Peter Mandelson made that point in rather more diplomatic language in a speech at the weekend."
Have to say you have a bit of a nerve to cutely make this comment. Guess you conveniently missed this statement in this mornings Daily Telegraph:
"Senior Government figures are said to have been infuriated to learn that RBS [via ABN Amro] was part of a group of banks that offered a £2.8billion loan to a firm owned by Oleg Deripaska, a Russian billionaire who last year hosted Peter Mandelson on holiday in Corfu.
The apparent loan to Mr Blavatnik has now brought the 51-year-old, who divides his time between America, Russia and Britain – where he resides in a £41million home in Kensington Palace Gardens –into the spotlight."
Can fully understand why they would be infuriated -- their unelected Business Minister Lord Madelson is closely connected to the Russian gentleman. Perhaps it is time to start asking new questions about how Lord Mandelson manages his property in London and his often flamboyant lifestyle.
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Nick,
I thought that when the banks were audited the auditors had to sign off the accounts as being true and fair
Now when are the acountants, audotors and consultants going to be brought into the frame, they must also share their responsibilty for their contribution to this sorry state of affairs.TAG
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Is your training going to involve dodging mobile phones thrown by Heir Brown?
Seriously though, ad hoc plans by an ad hoc government, call an election.
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I assume you are off to report on the Israel-Hamas problem with your usual balance and fairness...
As for SuperGord - wasn't saving the banks once enough? I mean, he's so good he wouldn't need to do it twice now, would he?
The Emperor's clothes seem to have been missing all this time, shouldn't we be calling them Nude Labour now?
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Glad to see him back, can't say I agree with everything he says but at least I know he means it. I recall him say once "I was wrong...".
Emphasis on manufacturing too, gosh! Are we ready for this?
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I am pleased that Ken Clarke is going to be "on the pitch fighting" (presumably in a Chelsea shirt).
Seriously; is it not time to create a cross-party team to tackle the economic problems? Doing the right thing is more important than party politics.
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Ken Clarke may wear Hush Puppies and not own a mobile (what a sensible man!), but he also left Labour with a sound economy which they have squandered; and it's hard to believe that he would have been taken in by the City as Brown so clearly was. Only three years ago - after Warren Buffett had warned that derivatives were 'weapons of financial mass destruction' - Brown was at the Guild Hall praising a new 'golden age' of endless growth created by those clever whizz-kids in the City.
And of course all of it was permitted by the tripartite regulatory system which Brown himself put into place - a system that proved as dysfunctional as the man himself.
What a muppet!
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At some point the Labour government will come to its senses and realise their obssession with the private sector will disable their understanding of the depth and extent of the crisis.
Radical methods are necessary to manage the economy including direct control of the financial sector.
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'Ever-expanding banks' came about primarily because the Government via the FSA, allowed these banks to lend out twenty-seven pounds for every pound deposited.
It is known as a fractional reserve banking system.
I can understand and accept that a partial fractional reserve system may be necessary in a modern economy.
But frankly, being 'geared up' twenty-seven time sounds excessive and is presumably the reason why RBS ended up with two trillion pounds on its balance sheet.
Like Humpty Dumpty, those banks that operated this excessive fractional reserve system are broken and really cannot be properly put back together again, but for the good of us all, we must pretend that they can.
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In the meantime:
There wasn't supposed to be a cut in Eurozone interest rates this January.
Jean Claude Trichet, president of the European Central Bank (ECB) had said there was "a limit" to how low rates could go after three successive cuts saw the main lending facility at 2.5%.
But that was all the way back in December.
It is a sign of just how bad the economic situation is that the rate has now fallen to just 2%.
Out of work
Going through the figures, one has the sense of finally being hit by a tidal wave that had seemed to linger off shore for months.
The recession is upon us, not just in terms of gross domestic product, but in much more tangible and depressing facts.
Eurozone industrial production is down 7.7% year on year - a record drop. Why make things when no one is buying?
The picture for unemployment is equally depressing. More than 12 million people in the Euro area are unemployed and the figure is rising dramatically.
The situation in Spain is truly horrendous; an unemployment rate of 13.4%, or three million people.
One of the few bodies doing well out of the financial crisis is the Spanish army, which has seen a huge increase in recruitment from people looking for something, anything, offering a steady income.
The eurozone is in deep trouble, and it seems to be getting worse
Inflation has come down to 1.6%. That is the lowest figure for more than two years.
In itself the number does not seem too bad, as the main objective of the ECB is to keep inflation at "below but close to" 2%.
But the direction of travel is alarming; the figure was at 4% in July.
Carsten Brezski, a senior economist at ING bank, insists the real fear now is deflation, the phenomenon where money becomes more valuable as prices drop.
That would be bad news for people with loans because they would, in effect, increase in value.
Little lending
The question now is whether today's cut will have any impact at all on the worsening economy, or more particularly whether it will persuade banks to lend more money. Almost everyone agrees that tightening credit conditions are a major factor in the downturn.
The answer is; yes, up to a point.
In October and November, the ECB's main interest rate came down by 1%, and it seems that banks in the eurozone passed on roughly half of that cut to their customers.
But just looking at rates will tell the whole story.
The question in Europe is what volumes of money are being lent, not simply the cost of borrowing.
On that score the figures reveal a grim picture.
The volume of new loans made available for house purchases were down about 40% for short-term flexible loans and by some 25% for longer term fixed-rate deals.
But interestingly, the amount of money being lent to businesses, one of the things European governments are most worried about, has dropped by about 10%, excluding bank over drafts.
Have a nice day Nick.
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Nick
I think you comment since the Tories broadly back this plan is rather disingenuous.
If a burning plane is hurtling towards the ground, then everyone will support grabbing a parachute and bailing out.
This is no good reflection on the pilot!
Brown is managing the situation (for which he has no qualifications) virtually single handed with no reference to parliament - the taxpayers representatives - and making a massive hash of it.
It has been reported that a private school had a £500,000 loan called in by HSBC - the parents have got together and has so far loaned the school around £380,000 (at 5%) directly - banks are not so essential to business as the city may like to think.
Supporting the existing failing institutions and so preventing capitalisms 'survival of the fittest' operating properly, is a monsterous mistake - if they failed, the market would have created a solution AT NO COST TO THE TAXPAYER.
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"Labour will hope to present a 68-year-old who doesn't own a mobile and wears Hush Puppies as more in touch with the past than the future."
Doing Labour's job for them again Nick?
Seeing as you are so determined to compare he two, I'd rather him to a 55 year-old who doesn't tell the truth.
"I am rather inconveniently spending the week away training to deal with [hostile environments] in war zones around the world."
Is the beeb predicting a 4th Labour term?
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Sian Phillips asked Alastair what would happen if this bailout didn't work and Alastair replied that he would do whatever it took.
I don't think this government will be happy until they have bankrupt us all.
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"Politics will soon focus on who can get us through this hostile environment. Talking of which, I am rather inconveniently spending the week away training to deal with just that in war zones around the world - so normal service may be interrupted a little."
===
Nick, will you be given training in how to avoid flying Nokias?!
By the way, nothing on the fact that the bank bailout MkI left the banks with preference shares that had a 12% dividend to pay to the government. almost everybody at the time said this was madness, now we have bank bailout Mk II that converts those preference shares to ordinary shares.
So why has it taken this bunch of incompetents, led by Brown and Darling, 2 months to work this out?
2 months of further failure and wasted opportunity.
I see we now own 70% of RBS, at what stage does it become publicly owned if not now?
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I've read most of your blogs Nick and obviously you believe that Nu labour are the men for the job.
Middle England will pay - not politicians and not fat cats. No one will lose their knighthoods and no civil servants will lose their pensions.
Keep to the party line and all will be well.
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At least Ken Clark is an MP and not entering Government through the unelected back door of the House of Lords.
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If anyone is still in doubt about the fact that the Tripartite strucutre set up by Gordon Brown in 1997 was one of the biggest disasters of the modern world please let me know.
Unheard of leveels of leverage were taken out by these banks on the nod of the treasury, the governmenta nd against all sensible advice.
Gordon Brown's credit boom is well and truly bust and he should resign immediately.
Call an election
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TV licence fee cash guarantees house prices of relocated BBC staff
"The prices of hundreds of homes owned by BBC employees in London will be guaranteed by licence-fee payers under a relocation package aimed at enticing staff to Salford.
Employees will also receive £5,000 in relocation expenses, up to £3,000 to pay for new carpets and curtains and will keep thousands of pounds in London weighting allowances, it emerged yesterday. The decision to use the licence fee to underwrite property values in a falling housing market has been condemned as unacceptable.
Under the “guaranteed house purchase scheme”, employees on permanent contracts will receive up to 95 per cent of the market price for a property. The BBC will incur any loss on the price when the property is sold and will pay for solicitors' fees, surveys and stamp duty, home information packs and building society charges."
===
Funny, this isn't on the BBC news website?!
And, shouldn't the last sentencce start "We the mugs that pay the TV Licence will incur any loss on the price......"
Green shoots indeed, but only if you work at the Beeb.
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Good luck in the warzones Nick, I hope you have a moment of realising what is truly important to you out there. Then come back safely to report facts and real news of import, rather than nuliebour spin.
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GORDY'S
"THE SCOURGE OF UNEMPLOYMENT"
YEP GORDY?
5,800,000 on out of work benefits
435.000 16 to 25 year olds not
registered presumed DRUG DEALING?
1,200,000 on early retirement income
support payments
ALL THIS BETWEEN 2001 to 2007
FOR 2008/9/10??
ESTIMATE ANOTHER 2,000,000 plus
to join the PARTY!
THINGS CAN ONLY GET WORSE!!
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This should prove a nice opportunity for Labour to take advantage of the massive inconsistencies between Clarke's and Cameron's views on some key issues.
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Re: nickgroupie @ 19
Osborne will have someone to protect his 'weak flanks'?! Hell knows he needs it!
More like someone continuously undermining his position.
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Nick,
I think that people should consider the effect of all this on retired former bankers who rely on their income from their shareholdings in the bank they used to work for. Also the capital value of their shareholdings has been destroyed. Why should they suffer because the current lot have messed up, big time. TAG.
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"Then there is the small matter of Europe. Is greater integration a vital part of its future or irrelevant to it?"
Spain's sovereign debt rating has been lowered today. It now pays 2.6% more than Germany to borrow over 10 years. Other spreads over German yields are opening up across the Eurozone. What this suggests is that investors are placing bets on a break up of the Euro, in which case I think that answers Nick's question pretty clearly.
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I don't know anything about economics but Gordon Brown is obviously the problem - not the solution
I guess they are interlinked but can somebody explain what are the problems caused by international factors - the so called 'global problem' - and what are the problems which he has created in the national economy - those which cannot be blamed on the 'global problem'
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Nick says - Politics will soon focus on who can get us through this hostile environment.
Dubtless it suits Gordon Brown, and apparently you, to focus solely on who can get us through this mess. But what about the part he played in getting us in to it and the extent to which that should influence our faith in his ability to get it right going forward ?
I notice also that you allude to the government spin/use of the £2.2 billion loan to Leonid Blavatnik. Held up as an example of irresponsible lending by British banks - in this case RBS - to foreigners. Never mind the inconvenient fact that the loan in question was made by the Dutch bank ABN Amro which was only later acquired by RBS.
Brown's anger at the irresponsible behaviour of the City and the banks sits very oddly alongside the praise he lavished on them at the time - including his lauding of London's big share of cross border lending, their use of innovative products etc. And he was pleased to claim Government credit for faciltiating their achievements, inter alia by creating a light touch regulatory environment and resisiting a move towards a single EU wide regulatory regime.
Read his Mansion House speeches of 2006 and 2007 and contrast what he said then to what he says now and, indeed, what he implies he was saying then.
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Why is my TV tax going to pay for your survival course??
Are you actually being sent off somewhere dangerous, or is it just a fun week out of the office? How much more of our money is wasted in this way??
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Yet more of our money being thrown at the banks by the "do anything at any cost" party, and still no astute journalism from the BBC.
It makes you despair.
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Today we have more economic disiaters from Europe. Ah, but it's all Brown's fault, you see!
The European Commission said in a statement that the whole European Union was facing a "deep and protracted recession".
Unemployment in the the 16 countries using the euro is expected to exceed 10% in 2010, up from 7.5% in 2008.
The commission hopes it will be possible "to create the conditions for a gradual recovery in the second part of 2009" in the eurozone economy.
Economy Commissioner Joaquin Almunia said in a statement it would be achieved through "measures to stabilise the financial markets, the easing of monetary policy and the economic recovery plans".
The commission said annual inflation in the 16 countries using the euro would be 1% in 2009 and 1.8% a year later.
'Continued fall'
As events unfolded late last autumn, it became increasingly clear that the EU would not be spared a deep and protracted recession
European Commission statement
According to official figures, the eurozone has been in recession since September of last year.
"As events unfolded late last autumn, it became increasingly clear that the EU would not be spared a deep and protracted recession," the commission said.
It added that "the outlook is for a continued fall in GDP throughout the first half of this year".
Different vews
Analysts gave different opinions on the commission's latest forecast.
Sunil Kapadia at UBS Bank said: "On the growth figures for 2009, it's a pretty fair assessment".
However, Gilles Moec at Bank of America said it was more pessimistic than the Commission, forecasting a contraction of 2.6% in 2009.
Last week, Germany became the latest country to unveil an economic stimulus package worth about 50bn euros ($67bn; £45bn) to kick-start Europe's largest economy.
Good day Nick.
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Curious isn't it. Gordon saved the global economy from a "global problem" yet Ed Miliband was suggesting we needed to improve regulation - that kind of suggests they know deep down it was more than a global problem.
There was the "nano green shoots" debacle and now Becket can see an upturn in the housing market.
German (and French?) finance ministers are unlikely to endorse the super-hero Gordon.
The Tories also are not "clean" as they haven't really said why they would not have been caught out by this predictable but unpredicted economic catastrophe.
Maybe nobody can ".. get us through this hostile environment.." Nick because some are in denial and some don't need to acknowledge their own failings.
There is no sign whatever that genuine actions will be taken to prevent this happening in the future unless Obama pushes through RADICAL change and Labour are shamed into action before defeat in the polls and the Tories realise their own "toxic debt" from their last administration could be surpassed if they make similar disastrous economic policies.
As you say the public get a large bill whatever.
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Nick,
I'm confused. I thought GB had already saved the world, sorry, banks. So why does he have to do it again?
Don't tell me they've been so foolish as to follow Government directives and having been bailed out in October last year, managed to get themselves bust all over again and in only three months. Now that's a talent.
What? You mean GB didn't save the world, sorry, banks? So what was all that money for? Oh, the polls. Right, now I understand. All that cash was to pave the way for an early election, which now of course will have to be shelved and we'll be stuck with this shower until May 2010.
God help us.
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Seeing all of our money going to write off other peoples mortgages and debts in other countries I can't help wondering why we don't get our mortgages written off too. After all it is our money thats being used isn't it?
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You say that the Tories broadly back the latest Government action to bankrupt us. Can you tell me where I can read this, or will you be too busy training for World War lll? What is that all about please, forgive me if I suggest that you are a little advanced in years for Army training?
I have been on line and yet to find Tory support as you suggest. Nothing from Camerson, Osborne or even Ken Clarke, or have I missed the point, please elucidate?
Perhaps this is journalistic spin for another holiday, after all, you have been in harness since beginning of 2nd week in Jan,2009, and only had 3 weeks+ off over the festive period?
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About Ken Clarke:
While Keith Joseph is credited as being the big thinker behind Margaret Thatcher, and while she frightened the horses with the spectre of Norman Tebbitt, the smiling demolition of the state infrastructure of the UK was the responsibility of ‘Mr Blobby’ aka Ken Clarke. who was moved around government by Thatcher to ‘sort out’ the various big spending departments.
The rise and rise of Kenneth (Harry) Clarke MP
1985 Paymaster General
(the 'paying agent' for all departments)
1987 Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster
(non-departmental post, but in his case with special responsibility for employment. ONS unemployment rates show 1983 - 12%, 1987 11%, 1993 10.8%)
1988 Secretary of State for Health & Social Services
(Start of the decline in public estimation of the health and social services, only partly retrieved by Labour spending in 1997+)
1990 Secretary of State for Education
(Massive rise in HE students with no increase in resources, Quality assurance debacle all started here)
1992/3 Home Secretary
(Big problems with the scuffers, prison officers, prison overcrowding (aided by 'something of the night' Michael Howard) etc.)
1993-7 Chancellor of the Exchequer
(Regulatory failures all began or were advanced under his painful watch)
2009 Welcome back Ken, says David Cameron - ‘He is a big player!’)
Not to mention his front-handers from BAT!
Don’tcha just love him?
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Anyone heard from Derek?
I'm missing his comments!
Oh well, never mind - now where did I put that book on Zen............
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Nick surely because someone wants to wear hush puppies doesn't make them past it. You may have a scrap with the manufacturers of hush puppies if you continue in that vein.
What we will have now is an element of gravitas by someone who has been there before and got problems sorted as distinct from a government run on spin who by their previous leadres admission survived by luck and clearly not judgement.
It will be good to seen Mandy at last devoured and decimated by a real man of merit and credibility.
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Euphemisms of our time
#243 Fractional Reserve Banking
Translation: Pyramid Sceme !
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Yet another ruddy barrister in Parliament.
GC
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If the Conservative party brought in Ken Dodd it would be better than the Brown/Mandelson/Darling alliance.
Just what have our MP's got to hide that they dont want the public to see their expenses....
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Well, "around the world" is the same as "right here"...someone on high in the Beeb's either got a warped sense of humour, loves the Brecon Beacons in January, or doesn't believe HMG can pull this one off. A week of ambush and hostage-training, just when Obama's pulling out of Iraq and stopping waterboarding, can only mean one thing.
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#42
Which let's face it, is crucial to resolving the disaster that Nulabour has wrought on our economy.
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Perhaps you could give your view on why this Government is so institution-centric instead of taxpayer-centric. After all, wouldn't writing-off toxic debts with taxpayers' money be just the same as giving it to the banks, but more efficient, longer-lasting and actually might fix the problem quickly?
What's the problem with cutting out the middle man, Nick?
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I don't suppose they are moving you out so they can give the job to Ed Stourton, so that his "departure" from the Today programme doesn't look so embarrassing?
Anyway, at least you will be "battle hardened" when (and if) you come back again!
It's tough out here, beyond the "Westminster bubble".
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42. At 11:41am on 19 Jan 2009, chrisleopard wrote:
This should prove a nice opportunity for Labour to take advantage of the massive inconsistencies between Clarke's and Cameron's views on some key issues.
===
Shouldn't they be concentrating on getting us out of this mess that they got us in to?
GBP800 billion of our money commited to sorting out this mess, on top of GBP800 billion off-balace sheet on public sector pensions, plus GBP170 billion on PFI costs, plus GBP534 billion PSBR.
That's a total of 2.3TRILLION POUNDS. I think you have your priorities wrong, there.
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Before you go Nick, could you find out what happened to the first £37 billion? If I remember correctly it was even suggested that we the taxpayer may even earn a profit on our 'investment'.
Word of caution on you travels - Hamas are not as peace loving as BBC balance would have you believe!
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55. At 12:38pm on 19 Jan 2009, jthredland
He's obviously got you rattled!
I wouldn't even go there with quotes and statistics with the incompetent, duplicitous self-serving bunch we are lumbered with at the moment. yo would be on a hiding to nothing.
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We met over breakfast to watch the Downing Streeet press conference. Still no admission of failure or setback in the October package or in the action and events since!
We noted that you weren't there today but the failure of the 4th Estate to ask the right questions and put Messrs Brown and Darling on the spot was again so disappointing. Taxpayers deserve better of you all!
We would have asked...
* IF YOU’RE NOW ANGRY AT HIDDEN LOSSES WHY NO DUE DILIGENCE AT THE TIME?
* WHY IS THE NON-DISCLOSURE/REGULATION ON RBS A ‘GLOBAL’ ISSUE - IT’S A BRITISH BANK.
* WERE WE NOT LED TO BELIEVE IN OCTOBER THAT A PRIME OBJECTIVE WAS TO ‘GET THE BANKS LENDING’ WITH THAT PACKAGE? WHY DIDN’T IT HAPPEN AND WHY SHOULD IT THIS TIME?
* HOW MUCH VALUE HAS TAXPAYER SHAREHOLDING IN BANKS LOST TO DATE?
* WHY ARE EXECUTIVES IN THE BANKS SURVIVING ON TAXPAYER FUNDS STILL ON SKY-HIGH SALARY & BENEFITS PACKAGES?
* GB SAID TODAY THAT HE WOULDN’T LET THE ECONOMY COLLAPSE ‘BECAUSE OF THE MISTAKES OF A FEW BANKERS’.
IS THAT REALLY AN HONEST APPRAISAL PRIME MINISTER?
Readers of the political blogs may well be far better equiped to ask the questions than most of our supine and poorly-briefed journalists. Frustratingly we see this at every press conference. Having said that both GB - who passed the buck on every quantitative question - and AD were their usual evasive, unimpressive selves!
We blogged several sites before Xmas that if the banks would not or could not re-loan the taxpayers funds - even to each other - why not form a sub-branch of the BoE (thus keeping it isolated from the main activities of the Bank) to do the job directly?
Is the £50bn part of this latest package in fact that concept?
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Dear 39,
Funny, this isn't on the BBC news website, part 2.
RBS (ABN) has just written-off a 2.5 BILLION pound loan to a Russian Oligarch.
That's the RBS that has just got a large bunch of Her Maj from us then?
Xxxx
ps,
For real news DO NOT READ the BBC website.
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Re Ken Clarke
THE LABOUR LOBBY CAN DO ALL THE
BASHING THEY LIKE!!
At least Ken DIDNT LIE TO GET A
MORTGAGE IE COMMIT FRAUD
His BAT Deal is out in the OPEN.
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#55
Nice try but totally bogus; it was Grodon Brown who decided to deregulate the banking system with his idiotic tripartite legislation.
No bank under the tories had leverage of 90x like Nothern Rock, or 70x like Royal Bnak of Scotland.
But Gordon Brown stood idly by and did nothing because the credit boom was fuelling his reputation.
Now it and he are well and truly sunk,
A monkey would do a better job of saving bitht the world and the finamacial system.
We are bankrupt thanks to Gordon Brown.
Call an election.
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RBS down on the day so far at 50 percent.
Lloyds Bank Group down 34 percent.
HSBC and standard Chartered both down at 11 percent.
Second bail out, sorry not a bail out but an insurance guarantee, does not seem to have gone down well in the Stock market.
The Gov thinks that the banks are sufficiently capitalised from bail out no. 1. True then, but Sterling value was at 2 US Dollars. Now it is 1.45, a fall n value of 25 percent so when foreign loans are written off the Sterling value written off is larger.
Expecting banks to lend more when clearly their position is fragile is barking mad. As majority owner of some of the banks a large capital injection is on the cards. Is short selling taking place? The FSA are supposed to be monitoring this. Are they?
It is probably too much to expect the regulators to actually do their job, and heaven forbid take the appropriate action. i think that the country should be renamed as New Zimbabwe.
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An absolutely terrible decision to bring back Ken Clarke. Not because of his stance on Europe, it's a complete irrelevance for the foreseeable future. But because the Tories have been making headway with the claim that the government until recently has completely misunderstood the economic crisis and has built up huge amounts of debt without acheiving anything. In a stroke David Cameron has given Gordon Brown a get-out-of-jail free card because every single time the issue is brought up all he has to do is remind everyone that Ken Clarke supported the VAT cut. Job done.
This will be repeated over and over again at PMQ's and probably during every interview from now on.
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Nick,
Surely 'the prize in politics' will go first and foremost to those who can lead us out of this mess. Britons are pragmatic. Give us solutions to this crisis first before telling us your visions for 2030...
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59. At 12:59pm on 19 Jan 2009, guycroft wrote:
Yet another ruddy barrister in Parliament.
===
He has been an MP since 1970, just woken up have we?
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Lots of Tory trolls/Daily Mail BBC botherers/grass rootscampaigners/astroturfers delete where applicable. have been commenting like this! I suggest maybe that its because he often is sent to cover ministers visits to places like Afghanistan, Iraq, Gaza etc. As a kidnapping has happened before in case you have forgotten. I know, Its health safety gone mad isn't it!
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27. At 10:47am on 19 Jan 2009, jonnyturk wrote:
I am pleased that Ken Clarke is going to be "on the pitch fighting" (presumably in a Chelsea shirt).
Seriously; is it not time to create a cross-party team to tackle the economic problems? Doing the right thing is more important than party politics.
===
He is a Nottingham Forest supporter, that should please munichmadrid7980.
I agree about a cross-party team to tackle the economic problems, as long as none of the Labour incompetents who got us in this mess are included.
So that would be the Tories and Vince Cable then.
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Hi Nick,
It's not actually going to be as swashbuckling as you suggest.
Today Brown and Darling announce another bailout for the banks. At the time I write this, RBS stock was down 63%.
Everything Brown says actually damages confidence, rather than builds it.
E&Y now estimates unemployment to peak at 3.4m in 2011. And The Sun is now openly saying that these problems are home-grown.
Under these circumstances, the incumbent will always lose power.
But the earth will be so very scorched, the question for the Tories is how to win the election after next.
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#42
chrisleopard wrote:
This should prove a nice opportunity for Labour to take advantage of the massive inconsistencies between Clarke's and Cameron's views on some key issues.
---------------------------------------------------
If you believe that all members of the cabinet will agree on all major Government policy then the likes of Alistair Campbell will consider their work to be done. Brown and Mandelson are hardly considered to have the same views over Europe.
I want my politicians (of all parties) to have principled views whilst being able to take a collective party line in key areas.
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"This will be repeated over and over again at PMQ's and probably during every interview from now on."
To be utterly nullified with Ken Clarke's own words berating and castigating the current Chancellor and his boss, for getting the bail-outs completely wrong.
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Tis great to see cuddly Ken back.
Now everytime he goes against Labour he can ask them what they did with the Golden Goose he handed them
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"Is short selling taking place? The FSA are supposed to be monitoring this. Are they?"
The temporary ban on short selling was lifted at the end of last week.
Oh surprise, surprise, the banking stocks immediately took a hammering.
Even Barclays who have made a tidy PROFIT got hammered.
I think this has more to do with short selling than any position of the individual banks.
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Intruiging to see that Mr Robinson will hardly have time to blog this week but still manages to write that labour will try to paint him as more in touch with the past than the future. The art of subliminal messaging is truly mastered by Campbell and Mandy and happily passed on by the BBC, which never seems to filter these plugged messages.
And you don't need a mobile to know that you have to pay back your loans at some stage.
However, you do need a mobile to call Mr Robinson to spin yourself out of the fact that you ran a budget deficit in boom times.
Hope people living outside the UK start recognising that the BBC is rather biased. The BBC is sub-prime and overvalued.
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More plans on top of yet more plans.
I'm sure we can all think of a plan.
But someone has to formulate that plan think it through and make sure it will work.
We sure have seen lots and lots of the former but I'm still waiting for the thinkers and doers.
Has life been so easy over the last few years these people are now extinct?
Or will Ken Clarke breathe new life into them and bring them back to the rescue.
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69. At 1:50pm on 19 Jan 2009, tobytrip wrote:
Dear 39,
Funny, this isn't on the BBC news website, part 2.
RBS (ABN) has just written-off a 2.5 BILLION pound loan to a Russian Oligarch.
That's the RBS that has just got a large bunch of Her Maj from us then?
===
It was actually ABN AMRO that made the loan, RBS's stupidity was buying ABN AMRO at the top of the market, paying top dollar, without any obvious due diligence.
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Politicians who make grandiose speeches from comfortable and safe positions need not be taken too seriously.
Why cannot we get our loans back from Russian oligarchs ?
Good to see Clarke back on the front bench but it won't tempt me to vote Tory who sold off UK's family silvers. Expecting Labour skillfully playing the man and not the ball, as always. Hope to see the rise and the dominance of the independents in the next election and forever. Let's fill the parliament only with people who have in their hearts the interests of the country and the people.
When "Lend, Lend, Lend" fail to find "Borrow, Borrow, Borrow" and "Spend, Spend, Spend" I suspect hidden agent to part us from our savings and pensions by printing money, pushing up inflation and stealth taxes. Giving money to banks by borrowing is neither the real economy nor wealth generation. Yes, it pays for the next round of bonus and political self congratulations, with our sacrifices, again.
I suspect politicians (not all) take more seriously the opinions and interests of lobbyists than ours. Nevertheless, here are some suggestions.
- Lead by example, neither command nor coerce.
Do as you ask others to do, but more seriously and do it for longer. Do not demand the sacrifice of essentials from those who have few comforts, so those who have many comforts can keep their luxuries.
- Bring back off-shored jobs - manufacturing, IT, service and call centers. Real jobs keep people busy, give them self-respect, pay the bills and debts, and fills the Treasury with taxes. Part time jobs and flexible working hours jobs reach further into section of the society where extra income will be needed, and there is more taxes for the Treasury.
- It is time to close the ex-domicile tax windfall. Profits made in the UK and incomes/interest received in the UK should be taxed at rates most of us had to pay.
- Blair once boasted "Whiter than white". So, show us. Spin and lack of transparency contributed significantly to political cyncism and the build up of financial WMD. Darkness, obscurity and complexity are friends of Swindle, Incompetence and Favouritism. Let's have genuine transparency in politics, government and finance. It will be painful for a few years but the it will be blessings for generations.
- Give MPs free votes lest we are left in no doubt that the politicians put the interest of the party because that of the people.
- Play the ball, not the man. Even bishops are not saints.
- Regular readings of "The Emperor's New Clothes" and Aesop's fables (start with "The Fox and The Goat")
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I can't believe people are making a fuss over any divisions between Clarke and Cameron. For God's sake the Golem and Blair hated each other. Blair was pro-Europe, the Golem anti-Europe. The reason we're not in the Euro now is down to the Golem and Blair's fear of Murdoch. Blair was desperate to join the Euro, the Golem was desperate to keep us out of it.
Any division between Clarke and Cameron is small potatoes.
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Nick
I discovered this morning that it is never to late to be converted.
I went to bed a Conservative and by the time I had finished breakfast I was a staunch Communist.
What brought about this sudden enlightenment?
The Government (should we still be calling them that - suggestions on a postcard please) announcing that the taxpayers are to put even more money into the banks.
What about recovering the last 3 years' bonuses from all these crooks (aka bankers) before holding a gun to the head of the taxpayers?
PS I don't have 3 homes and a Ferrari.
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#42
chrisleopard wrote:
This should prove a nice opportunity for Labour to take advantage of the massive inconsistencies between Clarke's and Cameron's views on some key issues.
===
I would draw your attention to the Heathrow 3rd runway announcement by Geoff Hoon, opposed by Hillary Benn Environment Secretary and Ed Millipede Climate Change Secretary.
And your point is what, exactly?
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To paraphrase dear old Grandantidote, I smell fear from Labour....least I hope it's fear, dirty boys!
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Econoce
We don't watch BBC News any more. We got tired of the endless non-stories and contrived news.
In fact, we rarely watch anything on the BBC these days.
We still have to pay for it though.
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pot_kettle_kettle_pot@81
A golden goose in the form of a type of capitalism that has failed spectacularly. Well done Ken! for handing labour the goose that laid the Iron Pyrite eggs.
Cigarette and whisky manufacturing will no doubt be the answer.
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Don't worry everyone, your taxes will be safe with the Tories:
http://tinyurl.com/9cloy5
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'As I said this morning, this is not a bank rescue plan' per Robert Peston.
'Those are the competing soundbites to describe the latest government bank rescue plan.' per yourself - Nick Robinson
Who is correct. This looks rather blank and white.
Yours,
asokao
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Why are we the licence fee payers having to shell out for employees of the BBCs mortgages and furnishings?
Are you lot learning from your Lord and Masters( the Labour Party) and its policy of claiming and hiding expenses??
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dhwilkinson, whilst I agree that training political correspondent's in survival training for when they visit war-zones with politicians and the associated expense of that is a fully justified thing, what is your take on the following:
"The BBC will be using license payer's money to fund Solicitors’ fees, surveys, stamp duty, Home Information Packs, mortgage fees, a “full packing and unpacking” removal service and storage costs.
Not to mention £3,000 per person for carpets and curtains in the new pad. Oh, and another £5,000 relocation payment for, well, anything else they fancy.
They won’t even have the hassle of selling their house.
Auntie Beeb will do it for them — and bung them £350 a time for house-hunting excursions to Manchester. "
Is that a good and efficient use of OUR money during a credit crunch?
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#42
chrisleopard wrote:
This should prove a nice opportunity for Labour to take advantage of the massive inconsistencies between Clarke's and Cameron's views on some key issues.
_____________________________
Yes, that will be really helpful, I hope they put some real energy into that.
What is really depressing is that I am absolutely certain they will, having nothing of any real value to offer the country.
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Nu Lab are in new territory. In the past we have had one or two terms of tax & spend, followed by a change of Government when the Tories have been able to swing the pendulum back. The fickle voters then change Government again and the whole cycle repeated itself.
In its way this is quite healthy as it has stopped extremes either way. Indeed we saw the Tories self distruct when they spent too long in power.
However, we had the 'historic third term'. For the first time we see this bunch of jokers in power looking at their own mess with nothing in reserve and no idea what to do.
Oh! how they must now regret winning the last election.....but not as much as those of us trying to run a business do!
Nick - do you (or anyone at the Beeb) ever read/ take any notice of these postings as the continued political bias of the BBC is truly breathtaking. I have always defended an independent media....however I am now begining to hope the next government withdraws funding!
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As has been pointed out already, banking shares have taken a bit of a tonking today - particularly RBS - but the pound has also shed nearly 4c against the dollar. I remember not many weeks ago after the Pre budget thingy, that Ken Clarke said that the first sign of whether the fiscal stimulus would work or not would be which way the pound went - I think it may have gone down a touch.....
Good think that Ken is back at the coal-face. I don't agree with him over Europe or the Euro, but the guy talks the language of the common man instead of the campbellesque psychobabble that Brown and Co come out with just to try and look clever. "Look you know we are the only ones capable of managing the economy because we are the only ones who know what the hell we're talking about"
Someone (on a recent blog) pointed out that Gordon Brown's real name is James Brown. Perhaps he should re-release his hit from many years ago to try and get some cash back in the coffers....
'Get up, get on up...
get on the scene...
I'm a debt machine...'
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And in the middle of all this it seems that Milliband Major made a mess of his trip to India last week upsetting virtually everyone he came into contact with. There was a brief mention of this on the World Service but little on the programmes aimed at UK listeners. However, Milliband is yet another incompetent in a government of incompetents. Any comments Nick?
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This astronomical second bail out is Brown's last throw of the dice, his absolute last chance before the game is up. A complete and utter bust.
When this whole disaster is investigated, Brown must admit he severly restricted the Bank of England's regulatory powers to monitor other bank's abuse and misuse of collateralised loan obligations regarding sub-prime markets which subsequently ran out of control.
We have lost our savings and our children and grand children saddled with a debt that he as PM must accept full responsibility for and resign.
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@92 DH
No Dh the Golden goose that handed Brown all those quarters of growth that he continually spouted on about and if Brown hadn't deregulated futher and had actually saved some of those golden eggs and not killed the goose we might have been in a position to spend our way out of this instead of saddling 3 generations with trillions of pounds of debt
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93 Chrisleopard
There wont be any taxes left after James Brown has given our taxes to the banks.
How many more times is he going to do this? How much is this going to cost us all?
WHO VOTED FOR THIS IDIOT?
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101 BGarvie
You are dead right. James Gordon Brown should be taken to the Tower of London and left to rot.
He is and never was a financial wizzard that his lovers talked about. Love to have a game of Monopoly with James Brown, he would just build up debt and go bust.
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"What if the government's plan does not work?
Then we really will be in a tricky spot
"
Understatement of the week
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7837557.stm
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Time for a taxpayers' revolt?
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@ 102, you mean all that RECORD consecutive quarters of growth that Brown kept on hammering on about week after week after week, month in - month out?
Hoping that people would not actually work out that these consecutive quarters started in 1992 and the first four and a half years of these were TORY ??? Those quarters you mean?
Yes that WAS quite a golden goose. Additionally, what about the fact that he promised to stick to tory spending plans for the first 2 years of the labour Government, so that's actually 6 and a half years of TORY quarters of growth.
That's an even BETTER golden goose isn't it?
Then with the abolition of his responsibility for UK interest rates, and the outsourcing of all the regulation from the Bank of England to the farcical FSA? These are decisions that Brown took that created the situation that allowed banks to be so wreckless. And whilst Brown WAS being warned, repeatedly, by many independent economic experts from 2002 onwards that the amount of money being lent by our banks was clearly unsustainable, Brown did NOTHING as he was relying on this to prop up his consecutive quarters mantra. He failed British industry and manufacturing and even the 21st century sweatshops (call-centres) were being off-shored. He relied solely on massive credit on the back of unsustainable property inflation to fund his palpably false and immoral claim of ending boom and bust.
Now we and our children and grand children will be paying HIS debt bubble off for at least another 60 years.
That means decades of LESS money to spend on schools and hospitals and police and pensions etc etc etc and it is GORDON BROWN who is responsible for that.
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Max Sceptic
Tell me where and when..........
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#76 you are quite right too many postings on here are petty and ill informed, now lets keep to the main subject matter namely Gordon Brown and The Labour party , they have ruined the economy, bankrupted the Country and been found out haven't they ?
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105 Teapot
And when will you know if James Brown plan has worked? I know when we have all been paying so much tax for God knows how many years and all this is bank leading is over, which will be around 3003.
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104. At 4:11pm on 19 Jan 2009, maggyisgod wrote:
101 BGarvie
You are dead right. James Gordon Brown should be taken to the Tower of London and left to rot.
He is and never was a financial wizzard that his lovers talked about. Love to have a game of Monopoly with James Brown, he would just build up debt and go bust.
===
And then throw his Nokia at the wall!
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#101 BGarvie said "When this whole lot is investigated...." Well when it is it'll all be swept under the carpet - can't hold the politicians to account. T. Blair wion't be dragged in and charged over weapons of mass destruction, and G. Brown will walk away with his multi-million pound pension into lucrative lecture tours and book deals.
Incidently good to see Tony carrying on his succes story - the Middle East peace supremo brings war to Gaza ~ and goes on holiday. (Bet it was a freebie.)
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106 Max
Yeah were and when?
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112 Secret Love
You are joking, Blair has gone on his holls.
Has he took his children with him and if so should'nt they be in school?
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shellingout @108,
Right now - wheresoever you may be!
I'm not saying what you should do - or not do - as that may be construed to be 'illegal' or 'seditious' and I'll soon have NuLab's Stasi knocking my door down.
Just figure out how to opt out...
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So Nick - "spending the week away training to deal with just that in war zones around the world"
Does this mean a London metropolitan police course to allow you into handling the "ring of steel" that the bbc plans to build around itself in London?
At our expense!
Most probably the "ring of steel" is really to keep taxpayers and TV license owners out when taking to the streets to revolt about bbc dumbing down and government bias?
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Secret Love
It's one rule for them and another for us!
Grrrrrr.
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Max Sceptic
I'm way ahead of you.....!!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
106
maxsceptic is revolting!
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The Pro labour BBC are milking the tories appointment of Ken Clarke, even making it onto the HYS Board.
I suspect they are trying to whip up Thatcher hysteria concerning Clarkes earlier days in office in order to try and give Brown some support by slagging the tories off.
There has been more emphasis on this today than when Gordon Brown walked into No10 unelected.
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If Ken Clarke had a Goose that could perform alchemy with its digestive system he would still cook it and eat it.
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Someone also wrote earlier suggesting Clarke will have Mandleson for breakfast.
I wouldn't go that far.
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Nick,
how very interesting that Gordon is 'angry', gosh how big of him. Next he will be at the despatch box on wednesday saying how angry he is that another three British soldiers have died as a result of our presence in Afghanistan. Now that should make him really angry, all that compensation will now have to be paid out to the loved ones, angry, the man doesn't know the meaning of the word. Disgraceful!
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Well, what is patently clear is that Labour have lost control of the economy: their latest plan plan to bail out the banks has only worsened their situation by wiping nearly 20 billion of the banking share prices.
So now will they get the message that interfering with the banks doesn't help? I doubt it.
Hmm, from the sounds of it Nick, you appear to be off to pastures new. The sort of training you hint at going on isn't something you'd be doing if you're staying in the Westminster village, unless you're preparing for 2010!
Let us know how the training went and where you're off to. I doubt its the cushy Brussels job!
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I lost any belief in Clarke when he was one of the MPs crowded around "jobs for the boys" conway,patting him on the back and cheering him on when he gave his lame excuse for employing his sons.
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This is completely off topic, but the tragic irony is such, I feel fellow bloggers would appreciate it. This morning, in passing, I heard on Woman's Hour" on Radio 4, about girl students being targetted by the Taliban. It appears that the Taliban in Pakistan are violently against girls studying and act against them. And all this in the SWOT VALLEY!!!!!
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#127
Sorry, it is SWAT Valley!
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127 phoenixarisenq
Sorry, but could not careless about girls in Pakistan. This is why we are at war because we could not keep our nose out of other countries ways of life. I dont want the Taliban telling us what to do and they don't want us telling them.
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Remember it was Ken Clarke that brought the economy round and into a solid fit state for governance. He produced a golden inhertiance for Brown who then falsly claimed all those successful quarters of growth as his own. His incompetence has now squandered the lot.
We have long since seen the duplicity of Brown, as he raided pension funds and took all the profits out of The Royal Mail. Destroying a once proud pensions industry and closing thousands of local post offices and putting thousands of jobs at risk.
I have never seen the British people so angry, upset and totally dissatisfied with this Government.
Brown's political bias has presided over the financial destruction of ordinary people with their pensions damaged and savings made worthless.He failed to produce a fair society; it was all a con. Brown cannot continue to blame all contagion on a global crisis as an excuse to hide his mismanagement and responsibility for our domestic economy.
It needs a Ken Clarke to reinforce the excellent team building by David Cameron to put things right. It is only their ability that will bring confidence back to our country.
Tory critics will continue to snipe and whine, they have had their decade to demonstrate their abilities. They have failed miserably and succeeded in damaging our country virtually beyond repair and produced the worst society in history.
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The most important thing this recession has confirmed to us is that neither the present government, other political parties, the FSA or the Bank of England are running the country or are likely to. The country is controlled by banks and utility companies, foreign or otherwise. The rest are sideline spectators who are not involved and only get satisfaction from knocking each other on the head while the rest of us are losing our jobs and houses. What's the point of having an election, either now or in 2010? Cheering for spectators is pretty pointless.
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I also don't own a mobile phone. And this is because I have researched the health effects for myself - not just taken the word of vested interests - the mobile phone industry, the Government (who 50 years ago said smoking was safe for the sake of tobacco tax money) - or their lap dog: the HPA. I admire a man who dances to his own tune even if I don't agree with his position on Europe. I think Labour are shooting themselves in the foot once again with this one.
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129. At 11:31am on 20 Jan 2009, maggyisgod wrote:
127 phoenixarisenq
Sorry, but could not careless about girls in Pakistan. This is why we are at war because we could not keep our nose out of other countries ways of life. I dont want the Taliban telling us what to do and they don't want us telling them.
=========================
Sorry, maggyisgod,
I've been away, so just saw your posting. I wrote, not through compassion, but rather through amusement, since I too couldn't care less what these peoples do in their own lands. As long as they are contained in their own countries, and not descending in hordes into Great Britain, then having the cheek to try and get us to have Sharia Law, they can blow themselves up, again as long as it is on their own turf.
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90 Harry Paget Flashman
To paraphrase dear old Grandantidote, I smell fear from Labour....least I hope it's fear, dirty boys!
That isn't fear you smell old son thats delight, bringing Ken Clark into the shadow front bench is excellent news for labour,we now have deep in the heart of the Tory regime a guy[ you could almost say socialist sympathiser] whose views are more associated with labour than they are with the current Tory hierarchy, his presence there only serves to prove that Labour's consistent condemnation of Osbourn was absolutely right, perhaps thats the fear you can smell coming from out of his depth Osbourn, any bets on how long he'll last now.
I see that the rent a Tory brigade are out at the beginning of this blog once again spilling their preplanned vitriol, rather a waste of time though as certainly all labour posters recognise them and ignore them not so the Tories though they revel in these once a blog misfits,
All that I can say to Dave is thankyou for bringing a guy into the shadow front bench that doesn't get carried away by Tory hysteria and is at least a free thinker.
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129 maggyisgod
#Sorry, but could not careless about girls in Pakistan. This is why we are at war because we could not keep our nose out of other countries ways of life. I dont want the Taliban telling us what to do and they don't want us telling them.
Well Maggie I guess you have shown us you true colours and you appear quite proud of that statement, but to be fair to you it does sound like the sort of thing that we have come to expect from some not all tories. If we hadn't poked our noses in you would be waking up each morning to the sound of jackboots marching past your door.
I think you will find that there is a man in court today in the Court of Human Rights accused of forcing young boys as young as eleven to fight in his army with machine guns and on the front line, and being encouraged to kill women and children.
I guess thats nothing to do with you either.
Fortunately in this world we have people from all nationalities who are humanitarians and they do care what happens to other people in other countries.
On your reckoning we would still have the slave trade if you had been around at the time of Wilberforce you would have voted against the abolition of that dispicable trade even though he was a conservative.
Try if you can to justify your above statement, with the opinions of people like Wilberforce and of all the people the world over that are trying to save mostly women and children from unbelievable deprivation.
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133 Phoenixarisonq
I am sorry that you feel this way phoenix I know that we disagree on many things but this surprises me a little old chap, not the way we front line soldiers think, you sound like a bit of a cad sir.
#and descending in hordes into Great Britain, then having the cheek to try and get us to have Sharia Law,
I have to agree with you on this last bit though.
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It is hard to select the correct forum for this posting. Crime? Maybe, but under knife crime? Well, the knives are not poked in a rival's back, rather into the very guts of the nation. So I will try this one. The robber barons of yore, who later became Lords had a certain panache. Alas, the four who have obtained media attention, and who may well be innocent, are guilty of one inexusable sin. They are Labour! Oiks in the House of Lords is an oxymoron.
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#136
Hello Grandantidote,
Of course I can't sanction such cruelty, but at the risk of being moderated, what can one expect from these characters? The choice seems either to once more have an empire and try and make the people behave like we do, or go in with an army, which is not at all popular, and which I don't support, or finally, close our doors firmly and let them get on with it. If you have any suggestions, please let us know.
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#136
Hello, again Grandantidote,
I've decided since I can do or be nothing constructive, that rather than whinge into my ale, I shall be a cad. Yes, by dammit, sir, a cad - greater than Brown, Cameron and dainty Lady Mandy could even begin to be. How about that for a New Year's resolution?
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130 BGarvie
#It needs a Ken Clarke to reinforce the excellent team building by David Cameron to put things right. It is only their ability that will bring confidence back to our country.
What excellent team building, David Davis out, Dominic Grieve in, sorry B but I rate DD a lot Higher than DG,and now we have Ken, well thats definately a improvement. All you have to do now is remove Cameron,Osbourn,Hague,Maud,Letwin,
Redwood, May and a whole host of others then ask Ken to pick a new front row, then you might start to get a excellent team in the meanwhile you have to put up with a very poor team. There's plenty of talent on the back benches but first you have to get rid of the old guard. Sorry lad.
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137 Phoenixarison
#Oiks in the House of Lords is an oxymoron.
I am afraid Phoenix we have had oiks in the house of lords despite their titles for hundreds of years. its time they were all shot out and we had a solely elected second chamber, then we could throw out the likes of Ascroft, Black, Archer and any other wrongdoing character from any party out on their necks,
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138 phoenixarisonq
If you have any suggestions, please let us know.
I do have one or two suggestions,the first quite difficult in the present economic situation but if every country was as aware as Britain is of the abject poverty and deprivation in some of these third world countries and were as prepared to help then perhaps the situation would improve dramatically. Tony Blair like him or loathe him did more for the third world countries than any one else to date, not that he gets any praise for it.
The second is even more difficult but should be aimed for and that is to form a true United Nations not jobs for the boys like this lot,its absolutely crazy that more than half the world vote to try to bring wrong do'ers to boot and two countries dont, the world then says oh well nothing we can do then. back to the banquet boys and girls.
Maybe one day perhaps long after I am gone this will happen in the meanwhile thousands die every day from hunger and clean drinking water,and we think we've got it hard. I am sure that their are plenty on these blogs that might have the answer lets hope someone takes notice before too long
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139 Phoenixarisonq
Spoken like a true gentleman, I bow to your honesty sir
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It is more than two hours. I hope it's only a long tea break, and not that the Moderators have been marched off and moderated!
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For Grandantidote:
Seems like us old soldiers are really keeping the Home Fires Burning - everyone else has given up and joined the Moderators for tea.
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#142 Grandantidote
Read your comments, but still see no answer. The League of Nations was a complete washout, and the UN seems to be no better. Just a vast cottage industry, with as you say, jobs for the boys (and girls). I think a great deal about poverty and children growing up without even clean drinking water. I may be wrong, but I don't think Third World is a relevant term. Most of the so-called Third World has resources, and for years they cannot blame colonialists or the West for their poverty or dreadful situation. Point out a Third World (that dreadful term) country that isn't ruled by either a crazed despot or a committee of corrupt ministers. Mugabe, is a prime example, but unfortunately he is not unique. His suffering country was once the breadbasket of Africa, and now its citizens lie dying of cholera or starvation, those that are not being beaten to death. The countries where Sharia Law prevails are also in the control of men who do not believe in the division of the land's natural wealth, and any Western politician who thinks he is helping by donating money, food, or any other material is just putting it straight into a few selected pockets.
Getting back to our original debate - girls are being abused in Pakistan and other countries, not because of poverty, but from sheer evil.
#141
I agree with the names you mentioned, and regret Pierrepoint was made redundant and has no successor!
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146 Phoenixarison
I was going to remark on the moderaters but I recently had a post removed by them because I complained about them. So you have to be careful. Do you really believe they drink tea I thought that some one popped around and put a spot of oil on their moderating finger now and then, of course thats after they wake up,Say goodbye to this post, now.
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Good night, sleep tight.
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speech!
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Maybe we need a good old-fashioned Dixon of Dock Green to investigate the vanishing blogs. Does one need to pay a bribe to publish?
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BLOGGED BY US ELSEWHERE TODAY IN RESPONSE TO BIAS ON LAST NIGHT'S 'THE LOVE OF MONEY' PROGRAMME....
Even the sometimes trenchant Nick Robinson did a pure advertising piece on the PM on yesterday’s news. It ran on all bulletins including News 24 for most of the day and evening.
We intend asking on his blog if this is the price of a taxpayer funded jolly to New York.
Pity the PM himself looked so totally lacking in any verve or eye contact even and the ham shots of him interacting with staff at Number 10 were so utterly unconvincing.
Come on Nick – don’t take us for complete idiots!
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worst PM ever? ... I'd go with Margaret Thatcher, a deeply divisive politician who left a Legacy (a bad one) that we are still suffering from today
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Is there a rift in the space time continuum - or has someone pressed the wrong button?
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spooky, isn't it? - just you and me - I could admit to you that I'm actually a paid employee of the Tory Party, blogging against it in order to anger and hence solidify the core vote, and no-one but YOU would ever know - plus, even if you told the others, they'd never believe you
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Aah the truth is out!
The great handbag's speech writer returns ....... Harriet's of course.
There is someone new on Andrew's blog you may enjoy - their opinions are even more fixed than Croftie's.
Quite Miss Croftie actually.
Assume the time rift will be closed soon......
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well apparently not - Susan will be back, nothing more certain than that - you mean that rather short and sharp "Electric Hermit" person? - yes, very ... er ... feisty - I like his point that too much cynicism can actually (in a strange way) be quite naive, but I'm loathe to get involved because he seems to be on a very short fuse! ... appropriate, I guess, given the name
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DAY 2
- well an open board, no opposition what can we do?
Could open a totally subversive line of discussion just to see if anyone is watching....
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okay, I'll say some Right Wing loony tunes things that I semi believe are true ...
number one:
Thatcher did the country a service by breaking the power of the Unions
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Number two:
Society is more divisive after 10 years of the NuLab experiment, the rich are richer and the poor are further adrift than ever.
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et trois:
the NHS is an out of control, cash consuming monster ... an economy unto itself ... and it can't carry on, in its current form, for too much longer - it's as peculiar (and potentially almost as damaging) a British obsession as private education
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Four
Objectivity goes out of the window when discussing reform in the NHS and education.
It is possible that the salvation of the NHS may lay in the hands of a group of privately educated individuals.
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total fluke goal by Gerrard today ... risibly being referred to as a "wonder strike"
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- well that's provocative criticising the boy wonder - have not seen it myself but no doubt it has been over hyped.
Obviously no scousers moderating today - in fact is anyone moderating?
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a good interview with GB on TV this morning, seemed quite "up for it" ... talked about a legal cap on bankers' bonuses!
believe it when I see it
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Day 3 and the portal is still open.
Flashes of the old Brown perhaps but I am afraid the movement behind the scenes keeps undermining him. The cabinet ministers are already manoeuvring and positioning themselves for the future - not sure that any of them have got the Balls to see it though but Balls has got the whiff of blood and may stab his master in the back yet.
Balls would be Labours Michael Howard - totally unelectable.
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indeed - Balls would so disastrous as Leader that I simply can't believe he's a serious contender - the person they go for very much depends on whether it's pre or post election (doesn't it?) and I think we can pretty much assume it will be post - my personal first choice would be Harriet Harman ... in fact if not Harriet, I'm struggling a bit ... maybe someone we don't know too much about yet
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Well it is the Tory boy's election to lose but having read the Guardian section where the politicians interview the interviewers - the Tory boy instinct is still there beneath the surface.
You may be familiar with the articles already, Diane Abbot and Anne Widdecombe interviewed NR and Jon Snow respectably - Hague and Osborne interviewed Emily Matthis and Marr with cringeworthy results.
There is still an antipathy towards the public school Tories [personally I treat all as equal and that at least does not bother me] and they can still blow it.
Cameron needs to avoid the Kinnock rally call - at the moment the anything but Labour vote is strong but all things are possible.
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no, I don't often get the G (you'll be surprised to hear!) - but I do think Lab will push the vacuous posh boy angle ... although not that exact phrase, I don't suppose ... very very hard in the run up to the election - and will it work? - in my opinion, yes (although no way enough to swing it) because it's a problem for the Tories, a genuine problem
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I am surprised this glitch is still undetected on day 4.
Watching Mandelson do his rallying the troops bit was reminiscent of Heseltine in 1997 when everyone else gave up hope he still kept going.
Don't particularly like either of them but I do have a sneaky admiration for their ability to handle themselves.
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like our very own Twitter this, isn't it?
yeah, Mandy ... what an old rogue he is!
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154#
Hahaha. Rumbled!
Didnt I accuse you of being a deeeeeep cover double agent a few months back Saga??? :-)
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Ah Ha the first visitor - surprised it has taken this long.
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oh no, there goes the neighbourhood! ...
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173#
Hey, dont be like that mate... Anybody'd think I'd just turned up with a series of transit vans towing caravans with too much shiny metal on the outside, a luton van full of mattresses and sofas and twenty-odd kids, all named Mary.
You'll have the boy Robinson applying to the council for an eviction notice at this rate.
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I didn't know you guys had a blog all to yourselves, respect !!
Just saw GB's speech, is using Sarah supposed to get him sympathy ?
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@ 175
no, not sympathy ... empathy ... you know, the "human side" and all that
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...and next week we can look forward to David and Samantha staring blissfully at each other.
I know they are all playing to the gallery - do they really think anyone is impressed by this?
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fubar @ 180
glad you think it's funny, Saga
I don't - I think Andy C555 is funny!
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Oh well. The shutters have come down on the other blog, as I predicted, short of 200.
Dunno how long they're going to keep us waiting for a new subject so I'm gonna have a look in on Mr Guido and Mr Neil, see whats going on
laters
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MIWC @ 177
no, not really - oh for the Ted Heath type approach - no wife, no kids - just boats
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have finally have seen snippets of the speech - some laudable aims but no indication of how it can possibly be afforded.
- even the politicians must hate all this happy clappy stuff, always enjoyable to watch the fixed grins on the ministers faces when their leader is speaking.
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As they say, talk is cheap. GB can stand up and promise the world, it's another thing to deliver it. Let's face it his track record on delivery is poor to say the least, unless of course you consider the economic ruin of our Country as an achievement.
Conferences make me laugh, GB could have stood up and said he was going to eat his cat for dinner and they would have applauded !!
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Just seen Millipede Junior being being run rings around by Paxo.
Supposed to be a senior cabinet minister... he was drowning. Simple straightforward questions and he couldnt answer them. Embarrasing.
And, interestingly, Gordon seems to be building his manifesto, his legacy (ahem) by stealing another policy/headline from the BNP. Thats two now... British Jobs For British Workers, now the idea for putting pregnant teenagers into what are basically a form of care home... Pity he didnt breif Millipede on it properly before he sent him out to face Paxo.
And as for Tony Woodley's contribution... good grief. "I must be on another parallel planet 'ere..." he says... Yeah, youre not wrong there Tony. One thats still stuck in Groundhog Day, Winter 1978.
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Nick:
The price that needs to be paid to get the economy moving again or the bill for the age of irresponsibility?
Acting in a irresponsible will cost money and lots of it..
~Dennis Junior~
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Saga
Compared to that Hermit chap Susan seems like an easy nut to crack.
Good luck with that debate - Hadrian knew what he was doing building that wall!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Blimey saga what did you say to break the house rules on this blog??!!
I was fascinated to watch GB this morning, he should try to keep that temper in check otherwise people might think he's not fit to run the Country!!
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drake @ 187
not sure! - was just pointing out that the "tosh" level was running particularly high on Nick's Sun blog today
which it is
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#188
You really must be a masochist my friend pursuing the Hermit - I would hate to catch him/her on a bad day!
There seems to be an equal antipathy to friend and foe.
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@ 189 - has to be done - exhausted now though!
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Actually EH does some good posts on Brian's Blether, completely different blogger to the one we are seeing.
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@ 191 - yes, I can imagine - sounds a bit of a clear thinking progressive type, even - just that this LB release thing is very very sensitive for those guys, isn't it? - it touches where they live ... politically, I mean, not geographically ... although that too is not completely irrelevant of course
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188#
Yep, the rebuttal squad were out in full force. Good banter though. :0)
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apparently Nick's next blog is going to address the yawning gap between the social background of the C Party leadership and that of the average citizen of the country they seek to govern ... should be quite interesting, I'd have thought
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Change the record will you Saga, some floating voter you are.
No mention of the yawning gap between the background of the likes of Hattie and the average citizen she seeks to govern.
And anyway, we dont have citizens. We have subjects. Dont only republics have citizens?
Nicks next blog... Hm. Having seen the transcript on Guido's site of the conversation between him and Sopel last night, I think its clear where his loyalties lie... and will probably be viewed accordingly.
So... 75billions worth of cuts Saga, from Mr Brown, if the front page of the times is to be believed... where do you reckon the axe is going to fall then? What else is going to be sold off apart from the Met Office?
Comeon, enough of the old Hampstead (you sure you dont mean West Kilburn or South Cricklewood?) Champagne Socialist Class Warrior stuff... down to brass tacks.
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Morning great Britain and editor nick Just woke to some lovely sun shine here,Not un like the sun shine yesterdays blog?
The blame game From yesterday i would like two put in my order for two sets of Tu Tu skirts for my rendition of the nut cracker suite.
The wife says don't tair the taffy TA withe your callouses dear as it its bad enough with hobnail boots on two stay on ones toes now days and to look ones best when attending a wedding ceremony.
Perhaps we will have swan lake afterwords.
ps do we need our top hats to this posh do?
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Transcript from Nick's post-conference piece last night...
“Nick – the Labour Conference is over, Ministers and delegates are packing their bags and they and Gordon Brown are heading back to their various heartlands, offices and constituencies tonight in a much better frame of mind than they arrived in on Sunday ?”
“Yes – that’s right Jon I think that this week has certainly been a turning point in Labour’s Campaign to regain the initiative and I can tell you in confidence that senior party sources are really quite pleased with that – with Labour delegates fully re-energised and up for the coming fight and are raring to take the fight to David Cameron and the Conservatives !”
What? Are you serious?? "A turning point to regain the initiative??" Were you really there Nick??
” The turning point really was that barnstorming speech by Peter Mandelson on Monday wasn’t it ? There was something of dire feeling of dread permeating the hall before then. But that all changed with THAT speech !”
“Yes – it did Jon. Peter Mandelson – not a person one would think would be loved by the Labour Party but all THAT changed after his speech which totally set the conference alive !”
Hmmm.
” A perfect scene setter for Gordon Brown to give that energising speech on Tuesday – again perfectly pitched at the very people Labour need to retain to deliver their fourth consecutive election win – and certainly Sarah Brown was amazing !”
” Yes – she was Jon – and it is obvious to me that Gordon Brown is absolutely determined to take the fight to David Cameron and win the argument with the public regarding targeted cuts aimed at preserving front-line services for those vulnerable in our Society but at the same time coupled with a firmness – a “tough love” almost of those that have been abandoned by society. All in marked contrast to the policies of the Conservatives who he says would merely cut for the sake of it putting vulnerable people at risk to the benefit of those better off in Society !”
Oh, Good grief....
“All in all a pretty successful week for Labour then – Nick ? And something that will certainly prove difficult for David Cameron and the Conservatives to match next week ?”
“Yes indeed – Jon – Labour started the week in the depths of despair – the election in their view as good as lost and David Cameron Prime Minister this time next year but after those two speeches they leave Brighton with their tails in the air and the feeling that actually – just actually – THEY might just pull off the upset of the year !”
Now this is getting ridiculous. You sure you were there??
“And what about THAT argument with “The Sun” and Tony Woodley’s extraordinary outburst at Conference yesterday with several Ministers openly attacking the media and Peter Mandelson allegedly telephone Rebekkah Brooks to remonstrate with her!”
“Jon – I can tell you having spoken to sources high up in the Party that they are dismissing this whole affair as something dreamt up by their opponents in the press and quite honestly whilst understanding the anger of the grass roots over this and which Ministers felt they had to comment on in the Conference Hall ; on balance the Government are fairly relaxed about the whole matter and feel that “The Sun”’s to influence events is grossly exaggerated.As one said to me in confidence “All we ask for Nick is fair reporting without bias and as long as the BBC and other new organisations hold to that then we can’t complain ! Although it has to be said that “off the record” Jon this person,who is VERY senior within the party was incandescent at what he sees as the blatant mis-reporting of certain news organisations,and he was very quick to exclude the BBC as one of those,and how they are playing reporting this story !”
Yeah, I bet he was quick to exclude Auntie. Lightening quick. So quick that if he dropped a penny it would hit him on the back of the neck on the way down....
“And – Nick – you’ll be in Manchester next week with that Conservative Conference ?”
“Yes I am – Jon – and it will be interesting to read the mood of the delegates as they assemble on Sunday ahead of the Conference and I can tell you – in confidence – that there are some very worried faces amongst Conservatives already tonight !”
“And – Nick -the pressure is squarely on David Cameron to give the “Leader’s Speech” of his career after the two we’ve seen this week from Peter Mandelson and Gordon Brown ?”
“ I am always very loathe to use such emotive language- Jon – but I think you may very well be right!”
Sheesh. For one who is meant to be politically neutral, you dont half stretch the envelope a bit Nick. Was being Chair of the Young Conservatives really that traumatic an experience??
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# 194
Perversley that yawning gap has not got much smaller over the past 12 years, many of the aspirational elite [as opposed to the old school elite] are no more prepared to give a helping hand up than the old elite.
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Thought I'd drop a pearl of wisdom a colleague from my days at The Daily Mirror used more than once (updated for current events).
"Labour have as much chance of winning the next election as me having Raquel Welch .............. and she's not even in the Country"
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194#
I've just thought Saga, if that was going to be the subject of the next blog, it would have been up in 5 minutes.
Lord knows what he is upto at the moment that is keeping him from leaving us with something relevant to blog about, like the IMF saying we're one of the worst placed economies for the coming 12 months (handily not reported by the Beeb) or the 75Bn worth of cuts including some capital defence projects (always a good thing when you're at war, start chopping defence - didnt we learn that lesson from 1982?) or your mate Hattie potentially provoking a diplomatic incident with the US...
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@ 195
enough of the old Islington Champagne Socialist Class Warrior stuff ... down to brass tacks
well I'd love to get down to BTs but the trouble is, by embracing the Sun "newspaper", the Tories have dumbed down the whole of politics in this country, and de facto have trivialised the upcoming General Election - it would have been good for it to have been fought on the National Debt issue, for example ... I was really looking forward to something like that ... but now it's going to be all about car parking at Tesco and bra sizes
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201#
Oh for crying out loud, stop making excuses. Tories this and tories that, I've had a floppin' bellyful of it.
Thank Christ we're emigrating in January. Cant come soon enough.
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Nick so as two not showing bias in anyway shape or form i switched on my television set to watch a little of the nulabour party conference.
And as i was waiting for the set to warm up,I realized i had never been to Florida in the united states and that as a youngster i had problem missed out on a few important chapters in my life you know like the
delphinium and Disney land. you know us kids in the thirty's didn't have these type of luxuries they have today.
Then it came to me as i sat there i never really missed out on anything at all ,for in front of me was one of the biggest dolphins you could imagine waving his little flippers waiting for the delivery of a sardine or pilchard zipped across to him to satisfy the hunger pangs in his tummy .And on the other side of the pool was the walrus he was sitting there with a grin on his face it made me feel quite sick
Then it ac curd to me that i was in-fact watching the labour party conference with David miliband at the rostrum.
For it was him throwing the sprats and the faithful doing the flippers.
I rushed upstairs two search the attic for my Stradivarius to start playing the theme tune to the ho vis lad running the cobbled streets ,
Grabbing a Kleenex on the way when he spoke of how prow ed he was holding his little sons hand on his first day at school into a school built by you guessed it nulabour/
I could have told him he was lucky he wasn't mugged by the louts in the street up the road that he was letting take over the place.
He the had the audacity to tell the faithfully the were going to take on a more positive action over Iran.
Best left alone in my opinion,How many more fronts are we going to fight on?
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#201
FYI I have lifted this from one of EH posts today - is this what it is like being in a minority on Nick's blog?
"Debating with Europhobes is like debating with the religiously deluded. Faith positions are simply not amenable to reasoned argument. By its very nature a faith position becomes stronger the more empirical evidence is stacked against it. The holder of the faith position gains affirmation from the opportunity to reject reality in favour of belief. The more evident truth they can deny, the more pride they take in the strength of their faith.
Baiting these sad creatures can, of course, be good sport. But no-one should ever imagine that it might be a productive exercise. Right now, I'm getting all the sport I need taunting ideological unionists and swatting inane conspiracy theories. So, thanks, but no thanks."
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#197 Fubar
Fubar, talking of interesting quotes, here are some snippets from Gordon Brown's speech to the party faithful (!) on Tuesday:
ID cards are no longer to be compulsory - U Turn!
All patients will have the right to see their GP in the evening and at weekends - U Turn!
Just like it used to be before Labour "negotiated" new GP contracts ending evening and weekend consultations.
Local authorities to be given powers to ban 24 hour drinking throughout a community in the interests of local people - U Turn!
Who introduced 24 hour drinking?
The man is a busted flush.
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201. At 12:18pm on 01 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
@ 195
enough of the old Islington Champagne Socialist Class Warrior stuff ... down to brass tacks
well I'd love to get down to BTs but the trouble is, by embracing the Sun "newspaper", the Tories have dumbed down the whole of politics in this country, and de facto have trivialised the upcoming General Election - it would have been good for it to have been fought on the National Debt issue, for example...
===
Actually I think you will find that it has been Labour dumbing down politics for the last 12 years in return for the support of The Sun. Blair even flew to Hayman Island in 1995 to win Murdoch's support.
Also, would that be the National Debt that Brown completely failed to address in his speech this week?
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#202 fubar Stop getting wound up you are a far more educated man than your 202 comment Try playing the devils advocate it will stimulate the mind and give you clearer vision.
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#202 ps Fubar You make some of the best contributions on these blogs giving a General all round view on most subjects ,Not like a few more that i might add.
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coats @ 204
ah, the Hermit! - no I don't really feel like that - actually, talking with HIM (enjoyable as it was) felt a bit like wrestling with religious belief ... the "religion" in this case being Scottish Nationalism, and the "faith" being in the absolute integrity of the SNP leadership ... rather fascinating
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..a lot of it is about semantics and our idle "bar room" chatter is being mercilessly dissected and quashed.
Formidable intellect but a little lacking in the human touch.
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@ 210
hah ... "idle bar room chatter" ... quelle good image!
and you can't fob this dude off with a couple of free drinks and a bag of nuts, can you?
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...no can't imagine him after a night on the tiles.
There have been some cracking one liners tonight.
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Please can someone in the British press just ask the public if they would support another labour government with the proposed policies but a change of leadership?
If you sat through tory led meetings as I do then you would quickly develop the sense of despair that accompanies this. Why would we want another era of politics categorised by the ignorance of priveleged Etonians run in the style of Dad's army?
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#211 - ref AN's blog
...so sequins & Stevie G do it for you eh?
What a combination - if Alan Hansen were a judge, it would be 10's all round.
Do they do a dance where you hit your prospective assailant first - or is that just my flights of fancy?
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@ 214
it's your FoF I'm afraid, but I'm going to borrow it if you don't mind!
watching him now, as it happens - he's not doing much
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...in love with the Hermit?
Infatuated maybe - didn't take him long to latch onto Croftie.
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ooo yes! ... away from Kenny Mac, he floats my boat as they say - plus, am enjoying watching how massively irritated he's getting with Suze - not gonna warn him off again, though, since it's hilarious! - let's see how long before he sees the light - took me quite a while, reckon it might take him even longer
(he was rubbish pretty much the whole game, btw ... just for a change)
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Yep its great to watch on - the posts are coming thick and fast.
Xtun being a gent has waded in to protect Crofties honour and is now going all guns blazing.
- maybe we have just discovered a new spectator sport
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new blog started but it's still rolling! ...
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Interesting week ahead for the Tories - it is their election to lose and they may find we are more fickle than they think when the realisation of the cuts strike home.
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mmm yes - dunno really - I'd like to think the Election is still up for grabs (and it should be really, when you think about it) but Brown is just so MASSIVELY unpopular that I can't quite see L pulling it off with him at the helm - he's so nailed by that "no more boom and bust" boasting and by letting credit rip during his 10 years as Chancellor - if I were "running" the party, I would (even now) be looking to replace him with someone else - but looks like they're not going to - so, right now, my call is a C overall maj in the range 60 to 80 seats
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...well, some ok ideas on limiting pension pots and limiting top salaries but I am not sure how it will all play with the country.
If you believed the merchants of doom on the boards you would think there was no way back, I prefer to have my glass half full...
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mmm, some okay ideas I thought from Osborne - elephant in the room (IMO) is income tax rises (for all but the poorest) - an obvious (and BIG) part of the solution but the usual "hush hush" conspiracy not to mention it
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Not a fan of indirect taxation much prefer direct taxation on income, it is properly targeted at those that can afford it. It is political anathema to talk about increasing direct taxation but we all know it has to come.
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"178. At 6:06pm on 29 Sep 2009, sagamix wrote:
fubar @ 180
glad you think it's funny, Saga
I don't - I think Andy C555 is funny!"
Not surprised Saga. You rarely if ever actually answer any of the points I put to you (STILL waiting for your explanation of the IHT drivel you were spouting - criticising cameron, demanding proof of Labours plans and then saying you knew about them all the time. All very sad).
You appear to have turned up for a battle of wits only to realise you're unarmed.
I look forward to you cutting and pasting one line from this and then typing something along the lines of "ah but don't you see the irony of what the Tories might do, we can only guess at it"
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555 @ 225
I look forward to you cutting and pasting one line from this and then typing something along the lines of "ah but don't you see the irony of what the Tories might do"
no way - not falling into any of your little traps, Andrew - any case, irony and the Tories don't mix - yet another reason why they're ...
... Unfit For Office!
hey, looking forward to you having a post 555 at some point so I can kick off my (devastating!) reply with 555 @ 555
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sorry Andy, skip the flippancy above - don't want to appear like I'm not interested in a "proper" discussion with you, I am
so what about IHT? ... what was it I was saying which you want me to justify?
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... did he notice he was in a different place, or was he too intent on hunting down his quarry?
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coats @ 228
there is NO hiding place from Andy when he's in this sort of mood!
an unbelievably trivial story ... "General Gimmick" ... running on Nick today
Cam tomorrow though!
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It may be trivial but I think Danatt [?] was way out of order to politicise the issues so soon after retirement - it totally undermines his position - he should have waiting until after the GE.
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I agree - he's coming over as a bit of a "Man on the Make" - not saying he IS but it's how it appears to me
no, I meant the Grayling gaffe about whether it was a "gimmick" or not, when he misheard Emily Maitliss' question, was trivial - that's the Blog which has got over 300 posts and counting!
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...have not heard the Cam. speech yet but having a quick peek at the blogs Flame Patricia likes it ....so that has got me worried.
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..now Croftie is praising it as well and nailing her flag to the mast.
... must try to be impartial when I get round to seeing it.
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that was a limp performance from Cameron
very disappointed
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I have got to say I still have only seem the same couple of clips on the news - frankly I don't know whether I have the appetite [I know I should] to watch the whole performance - not for political reasons but because I think it is all stage managed -cleverly from the M&S frock for Mrs C to the heartfelt personal statement.
I want to judge my next government on their competence [or their potential] not on some slick PR exercise.
... but part of the competence lies in their ability to get the message across and like or loathe Cameron [despite his uncharacteristically nervous performance] that is where he has the edge over Brown.
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yes Cameron is a MILES better communicator than Brown ... has to be said ... and the C skill is pretty important for a Prime Minister to have
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YESTERDAYS PEOPLE ?
Camerons speechwriters made several errors, partly because it was almost written with an American audience in mind, unless one sets out to "reach" the kind of "soap-operaish" addicts perhaps previously more associated with Labour... It does not seem very British to refer to the sad loss of ones child or any very personal, emotional and intimate experiences in a speech watched by millions that has been designed to win people over to vote for a political Party. One wonders how many know that the P.M. went through a similarly sad experience when he too lost his child, which, apparantly,has always remained a matter of privacy to him. Neither has he ever said much of some serious accidents when he was a youngster, which meant that he spent long periods of time in hospitals in an attempt to save his eyesight. It did not make him yet another Cameron or Blair smoothie, but it is not easy to find anyone in the House tougher and more determined than Gordon as the Opposition is probably beginning to discover. . Fortunately so because the nonstop, wellorchestrated anti-Gordon campaigns would probably have caused a more delicate soul to resign, long ago...!!
I do not know if Camerons words about his youngster included anything about the NHS..., but I hope it did, because, like it or not , the NHS has become close to the hearts of most people over the past few generations.. One can't help wondering if a different Government that has alredy mentioned the possibiliy of CUT, CUT, CUT the NHS by no less than 1.5 bill. which might not only cause serious casualties due to staff shortages , but also many thousands more redundant doctors, nurses, cleaning and admin. staff, and so on, all, of course, claiming unemployment benefits.. at a time when the " choice is wether to accept a squeeze now and reduce the UK deficit or..delay paying it off and risk falling back into recession." Basically, it depends on which part of the world one is in, but in an affluent society like ours, there is no need to be too inflexible and rigid during bad times with little cash available , heating, food, unemployment etc, particularly so if considerable cuts are being made about the one body that can be relied upon to help us through to bring comfort and relief, the NHS. . I'm afraid , it is mainy due to the P.M. and some W,European leaders that the global crisis was tackled in an alert and calm matter which- many experts agree - is already showing the first glimpses of light at the end of the recession tunnel. The P.M., one imagines, relied on his extensive experience in the world of finance plus a number of excellent advisors and contacts, to delay reducing the UK deficit a little longer in view of the unprecedented crisis and the anticipated considerable hardship but that was avoided by the P.M. for not having made any hasty decisions . I'm afraid I find it hard to
believe that any Government not having been in power for over ten years, I believe, i.e. not really being familiar with the very many intricacies of the economy in THIS time and age, particularly , supporting industry and growth across the nation, and so on, would not need some considerable time to adjust to a future of answering rather than merely asking the questions..., particularly if this interim period coincided with any ambitous ideas by a new Government risking a new set back to the recession just when it should begin to improve by spring 2O1O. And I have not even mentioned the Lisbon Treaty yet, the Winter Fuel Allowance and so on.. It requires a great deal of skill,patience, maturity and altruistic reasoning of a splendid social-democrate to avoid worsening the recession in any way, probably unintentionally.
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Cyberpaulus
I was just about to make a fatuous comment about Oxo cubes [others on the same wavelength will understand]
You have clearly put so much effort into your post it deserves a better airing. This is just a hidden backwater - can I suggest you copy it to a more deserving place - If Nick's current blog is closed try Andrew Neils, the discussion there is usually more measured.
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@ 238 ... try Andrew Neil, the discussion there is usually more measured
'cept RO 2010 is now calling me "a numpty who's never done anything worthwhile in his life" !!
good job these blogs are virtual rather than physical space, else I'd have at least a dozen black eyes by now!
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@239
...these Caledonian interlopers have no mercy - good job you enjoy the fight.
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@239
.. they are at it again taking on the Caledonians - Scottish independence will be here sooner than we think at this rate.
The English side of the argument is struggling against the rigours of hard logic.
And I think FOM has just bloodied your nose.
Much better to watch than participate.
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238#
Well reasoned and well argued post, without resorting to rhetoric. Glad to see it can be done.
I dont necessarily agree with everything you said, but but you put your case well. Agree that it would provoke quite a bit of discussion on a higher profile blog... chances are though, it would end up dissolving into the usual cross-bench tennis-with-hand-grenades...
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Nicholas:
Nothing new to post, not considering Gordon's checkup at Moorfields - are we being softened up for Brown pulling the ejector seat handle prior to the election on health grounds?
Nor on the fire sale of national assets or indeed local council owned ones (not that they were consulted) or on the rumblings surrounding the latest installment of the expenses scandal?
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At least when Thatcher was selling off assets the motive was ideology not desperation.
How sad, to see Brown scrabbling around at the back of the cupboard to see what there is to sell.
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#243 First line of sensorship determine or other on what can actually be blogged about.
#244 yeah and it was not long ago that our dear leader was saying there were no need for cuts. The Cuts should have started abour 2 years ago. The the longer term pain would have been less.
Sometimes less is more. I have said this many times are the left blogger refuse to comment but until the situation is resolved I'll keep on mentioning it.
The whole Family Courts and social servies and CSA etc have been a fiasco for the last 12 years with many ten of billions literally tip down the drain.
first is to recongise there is a problem then secondly engineer a solution to provide the desired results, a system that provides value of money for the taxpayers, protection for children (which aint happeening) fairness, equailty and justice for all those that have to go down that dark road.
what is clear like in many area's Liebour do not even recongise that there is a problem ? and that is the issue they have become ostriches with heads in the sand.
And there is the route cause of the problems to come.
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244#
There'll be a lot more than what he mentioned as well Andy, particularly where defence is concerned. I'm surprised to see the likes of DSDA and the Met Office not amongst his headline announcements. Then again, with his antipathy to defence its hardly surprising.
The two that I have mentioned above, from what I recall have gone from being fully controlled by the state/military to trading fund status. Similar to what befell Qinetiq. And we all know what happened there.
I think you're right as well to highlight the difference. Also though, there is the rather un-encouraging precedent that Brown has set by the gold sale... when it comes to auctioning off state assets/reserves, Brown is not exactly the most prolific when it comes to gaining the maximum ROI.
Then again, where the 3G licences were concerned, he did the airtime providers up like kippers.
What worries me more than anything where this is concerned is that the money raised wont go towards paying down the debt, it'll be spent more on vote buying in the provinces.
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MIWC @ 241
and I think FOM has just bloodied your nose
and not for the first time! ... forget about a woman scorned, Coats, there is nothing more dangerous in heaven and earth than a Grumpy Old Man with a keyboard
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Just got in from work and checked the BBC news headlines:
Jacqui Smith has to apologise to Parliament. "Ms Smith clearly breached the rules of the House by wrongly designating her main home from 2004 to 2009. We recommend that Ms Smith apologise to the House by means of a personal statement."
The arrest of Damian Green was "not proportionate". "The arrest of Tory frontbencher Damian Green as part of an inquiry into Home Office leaks was "not proportionate", an official report has found.
Ex-British Transport Police chief Sir Ian Johnston said the leaks amounted to "embarrassment" for the government but did not threaten national security."
Gordon Brown has to sell £16 billion of our assets to dig himself out of a financial black hole. You know, privatisation, what the nasty Tories do, apparently.
And to top it off, a new poll from ICM gives the Tories a 19% lead over Labour.
Ho, ho, ho!
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#248 "And to top it off, a new poll from ICM gives the Tories a 19% lead over Labour."
of course one should not get too excited by one poll in isolation. Still, the average of the latest polls gives the Tories a 15 point lead and an anticipated majority of 92.
Who's worried now?
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I must admit I am looking forward to jacqui Smith's apology.
Will we actually be able to understand it, though, as it will be squeezed out through gritted teeth....?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
andy @ 249
an anticipated Clown majority of 92
60 to 80 range I'm calling it
but down to maybe half that if L ditch G for H
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#252 but down to maybe half that if L ditch G for H
think you might have got your maths wrong there , but then so do most
left of centre thinkers when trying to justifty the unjustifyable.
Lady har is held with distain by an loads of women for her views about equaliy , people like erin pizzey etc
23 September 2009: Why I loathe feminism ... and believe it will ultimately destroy the family
see for full details http://news.realfathersforjustice.org/
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@ 253
perhaps, 35, but I reckon most people who dislike Harriet wouldn't be voting Labour anyway - going the other way would be potential votes from left of centre people who can't stand Brown (like me) and the latter will outweigh the former, in my view, so a net electoral benefit would accrue
hey, thanks for describing me as a thinker by the way! ... makes a pleasant change from the usual insults
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yellow @ 248
and to top it off, a new poll from ICM gives the Cs a 19% lead over Labour. Ho, ho, ho!
spoken like a true Tory
which we know you're not because you keep telling us
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255 Sagamix
ABL, as you well know. But the Tories are best placed to oust Labour so ho, ho, ho!
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yb @ 256
but Yellow, there hasn't been a General Election in living memory where the Tories have NOT been best placed to oust Labour, so that's not really a valid defence ... is it?
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@253
Feminism is not some militant tendency, it is just equal rights for women.
....have to be fairly neaderthal to oppose that.
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Labour find themselves at an interesting crossroads.
MP's expenses notwithstanding, they could possibly spin the current financial data coming out (as they have done already, at conference) as being proof of Gordon taking the right decisions at the right time. Ahem. God that stuck in my throat, but nevertheless... Chances are, there are probably going to be a significant amount of the dyed in the wool core voters who are going to buy it, not to mention the legions in civil service jobs in places like NI, Tyne & Wear, the North West and so on, who will listen to the clarion call of the unions, doing their best Daily Mail impressions as to how the incoming tories are going to reduce them all to penury.
What the PLP has got to weigh up is can they reach the next election with what appears to be an upswing (even though unemployment is always behind the curve of any recovery by some months) before the data turns against them and the down-swing of the "W" shaped recession comes along?
Much as a number of us who have no time for Brown or NL's vision of Britain may dislike it, we should bear in mind that not every voter thinks in the same political terms, in the same lateral way as a lot of us posting on here do (Saga being the exception... theres lateral thinking and then theres Planet Saga... ;-) )... so there is the very real possibility of them scoring a fourth term.
Problem is, who is seen as the safest pair of hands? Brown? Highly unlikely but not impossible. He's never contested an election as PM before, had the chance to when he was in his "honeymoon period" and bottled it. Ergo, if he bottles it when he's almost a shoo-in, his vanity is not going to let him be the skipper of the sinking ship. An almost racing certainty to either retire on health grounds or defect to the G20 as its first paid SecGen. Much as I criticise MP's for being anodyne whipped party drones, a polarizing character like Harman is a step too far. Maybe not for the PLP's left, who would maybe see her elevation to the leadership as being an end to the New Labour experiment and a return to more traditional "socialist" values (which is fine, if thats what they want, thats their prerogative).
But for the wider public, considering that the prevailing political ethic over the last decade and a half has been to tailor what you stand for in order to mine the maximum number of votes and seats, the move has arguably been more centrist than the old ways of tory right and labour left. Now we have a Labour government which is only slightly to the left of the BNP and a tory opposition which is drifting further left by the day. All with the express purpose of trying to hit the voter's sweet spot.
Harriet is a polarizing character who's elevation to the leadership of the PLP and therefore as PM Elect, should they be successful in the next GE campaign will result in the same kind of - if not worse - catastrophic damage to the PLP's re-election to power as Sarah Palin did to John McCain's chances in the US. Just how many of Labours core voters have drifted that far left that Harriet would be seen to them as a viable candidate is moot. I would venture that in the core heartlands that it isnt that many. She is perceived as too metropolitain, too narrowly focused on the "equality" remit and is not the partys most capable communicator to put it politely. Sorry Saga. The woman is an electoral liability and is the one and only thing that will seal a cast iron defeat for the PLP at a GE. You may think she is the best thing since sliced free-trade, poppy seed, gluten free focaccia, but your idolisation is not shared by the rest of the electorate at large. And Harriet knows it too, hence the "there wouldnt be enough airports" comment.
Much as I back "anyone but Gordon" and increasingly "anyone but New Labour", I am still far from convinced that either Cameron or his party are ready. It could be argued that out of the three main parties that the conservatives had the better conference season and arguably have a more realistic, palatable vision going forward, but even in spite of the meagre amounts of flesh added to the policy bones, that there is still a key component missing. Its got nothing to do with how much cutting there would be, its got nothing to do with the old nasty party legacy... it just seems that there is this incapability to break through the tough outer shell of voter apathy and antipathy to inspire the desire for change in the way that Obama (and arguably possibly Sarkozy too) did during his election campaign.
Despite the ongoing simmering resentment over MP's expenses which isnt going to go away, there is still too much of a disconnect between the electorate and the parties. Everything politically is still to play for, but if Cameron fails to inspire, if he fails to truly connect, his party will be defeated at the polls. Events that are yet to happen, whatever they may be, will present opportunities for each leader to show their mettle. Fate has dealt Gordon a pretty bad hand but for what its worth, my view has been that fate has been trying to tell him "you may think you were born to this job, but you're mistaken" since the day he took office in the bloodless coup. The price the rest of us are having to pay for the satisfaction of his vaulting ambition has reduced British politics and the position in the world of Great Britain to a new, previously unplumbed nadir. It has not been worth it. Anyone with an ounce of honour, humility and sense of public service would realise that they are not upto the task and go quietly and voluntarily. However, I guess modern politicians are not made that way.
I truly fear that what we are staring down the barrel of is a fourth win for NL, a further swing of the political pendulum towards the left and their discredited ideology, the resurgence of the unions, further impacts on civil liberties and a tip into the downside of a W shaped recession inside the next 18 months.
Which, if the public finances and future debt repayment are not addressed competently will result in the loss of AAA+ status, difficulty in selling government debt, a visit from the IMF and then forced draconian cuts to front line services, emboldened unions revisiting the late 1970's, a fracture between the PLP and their financial backers, the emasculation of the British economy, significantly higher unemployment, raised interest rates... say nothing of the effects of signing Lisbon so unconditionally. At what point the electorate wake up and decide that this has all gone too far and the pendulum begins its correction, its swing back the other way to the right is open to conjecture... as is how far to the right, how violent the swing will be. Will it reach the point where the BNP or their ilk become a serious electoral force? And heaven knows, as bad, as incompetent, as corrupt as New Labour are, they are as nothing compared to the likes of the BNP.
So. The outcome of the next election is critical, the course that will be steered for the next 5 years will arguably have an impact on the future of the UK like no other since the end of the second world war. We are truly approaching a turning point. And our political classes are no help whatsoever, preferring to feather their own nests and our electorate is in a state of spoon-fed, dumbed-down apathy.
Australia or Canada beckons after the end of this contract in Belgium, methinks. The future is most certainly bleak and definitely not orange.
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@ 259
see Fubar, that's one of your typical blogs ... a classic of the FS genre
and do EYE get all upset about it? - do I find it beyond the pale?
no I don't
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#258 depends on whos feminism you are talking about Lady Har har or Erin Pizzey.
The Family courts are neither about equality, fairness or justice no the interests of the children involved or the grandparents indeeded
its just about the rights of the mother and nothing else.
It alright saying like sagamix does about equailty but what does this mean in pratice and real life in a situation where family parts ?
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Am I in the twilight zone here??
Is this Back To The Future Part IV?
Helloooooo....
Can you see pics of Toad of Toad Hall and Stan Laurel above?
Saga, you out there??
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260#
I dont know if thats a compliment or not. I'm going to hedge my bets and say probably not.
Just my thoughts at the time, is all. An insight into the dank corners of the mind of Fubar Saunders.
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@263
I think that is pretty close to a compliment - considering the insults you have been trading today.
Very good piece and so different to your personna on the confrontational blogs.
This place is starting to get crowded, all the usual suspects are coming out of the woodwork.
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264. meninwhitecoats
This place is starting to get crowded, all the usual suspects are coming out of the woodwork.
Sorry, miwc, didn't realise I'd stumbled onto a secret society here.
I'll return to the plebs on the new blog.
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survivor @ 261
it's alright saying like sagamix does about equality, but what does this mean in practice?
I know there is a presumption that, except for a compelling reason otherwise, a child should stay with the mother
that seems right and proper to me
but I haven't had any practical exposure to the FCs (as I'm sensing you very much have)
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well, this used to be just me and you Coats (didn't it?) and now look what's happening!
Stevie's out for Wed's match ... big win for us, I'd have thought
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#267 There is no such presumption of that , what the children act states is "in the best interests of the child(ren)" they are not the same thing at all.
What is coming out with issues like Baby P was that the FC and social workers bent over backwards by ignore all the evidence to the contrary.
Baby P is just the tip of the iceberg with the deaths at the hands of the mother and a non biologically related other male that has happened.
Kyra Ishak
Viven Gamyor 2 children names unknown
Victoria Columbie
etc
etc
etc
the totem could go on and on but most of the other have been kept from public gaze because of secrecy
Out of tradgic desperation of the process a very small number of Fathers has taken there live and those of the children too. Which would have been avoid if the system was fair,just and based on Equality.
why should it be right and proper (thats a harman statement used when the facts do not fit her ideas) that the child should be with the mother.
In my case I'm a grade A+ parent wherase there mother is a D- parent.
they would have been far better off with me.
So it ok to discrimate on the basis of SEX when you want to then ?
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BG@265
Just surprised it took so long to be rumbled - NR's blogs are normally closed so quickly
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@267
Thought that was rather good news myself about Gerrard, providing Ferdinand returns to form should be a good win.
We may have company but at least it is not the rabid mob - some of the saner bloggers I would say.
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35 @ 268
that's a good point ... children are more often (physically) harmed by men than by women but (as you say) the worst cases seem to involve a man who is not the father, and that in turn arises because the mother has got custody - the other way around ... father keeps child and hooks up with a bad woman who wants to actually hurt the child ... yes I can see that is less likely - the mother child bond, however, is generally seen to be stronger ... more sacred, if you like ... than any other in all of Human Affairs, I guess a lot of the practical decisions of the FC flow from that - I don't know what I think about it, really ... shouldn't be a political issue, should it?
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#271 the whole FC should not be a politial issues it was Lady T's seminal children act of november 1989 (years ago soon) that should have put a stop to it being a political issue.
Fathers of there own children would rather die for them than harm them.
but like other I have been writing , protesting for the last 12 years and it has ALL been ignored for political reasons becasue of the views of HH about men, which I guess are informed by the men she sees in the labour party.
I cannot put into wordswhat it like to go through the FC you need to go a find someone and talk to them but soon I will put it into a book , there have been several others.
It is FC is a story about how democracy has broken down in this country, which is why many have been forced to go to extreme protests to show the state of the FC and its secrecy.
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264#
Coats:
I'd much prefer this way, I really would. I can understand and respect people having their own views that are different to mine, I can understand people maybe being misinformed or making mistakes and sharing our common knowledge - there is a lot of misinformation out there - but I cant stand smearing, lying and bigotry. And theres way too much of it about. I'm hardly any kind of avenging angel, perish the thought - but it just strikes me as damned unfair. To have any kind of credibility at all you have to be as even handed, objective and fair as you can. Some of us, sometimes, let our political agendas get in the way of that. Saga knows better than anyone the two central things about posters on here, namely the "bulls in search of red rags in china shops" analogy and also the old saying of "people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones". Unfortunately, at times, this place can resemble the old Crystal Palace with stone throwing hoardes everywhere. And there has been a number of contributors who wave red flags around then retiring to the sidelines, knowing full well that it will set certain people off and that other contributors will get trampled in the process.
I'd been exchanging views with Bryhers on Andrews' blog and despite us being poles apart politically, the posts were cordial, there was no mudslinging, it was constructive and enjoyable.
I just wish it could be like that all the time. But, as we all know, politics can be a dirty business; if only one side is playing by the rules then the dice end up being loaded.
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"that's a good point ... children are more often (physically) harmed by men than by women" Sagamix
Did you know who the person most likely to murder you if you're aged under 11 is? Your natural mother.
We seem to have blinkers and assumptions in this country about violence and sexual assualt commited by women which, quite frankly, lets them get away with it. I read that around 1 in 7 calls to child help-lines involve sexual assualt by a female. Yes, a minority but a significant one. We'd hardly ignore/seek to excuse the situation if (say) 1 in 7 sexual assaults was being perfomred by a particular ethnic group but it's what we do with women. The recent primary school incidents are typical. Shock and incredulity that it could happen and then looking for the excuse, the reason....almost inevitably looking for the "EVIL MAN" who must have forced the woman to do it. Let's be honest, a man who sexually assualts a child has some wires badly crossed somewhere but why do we assume that the same can't happen in a woman? Same with physical assault of children. Who spends most time around a child? The mother. There are just as likely to be bad tempered women ill-equipped emotionally to deal with children as ther are men with the same attributes. Even so, look at NSPCC etc adverts. The man will be shown as aggresive, evil, planning. The woman (if shown at all) will be "driven to it at the end of her tether probably in need of help as much as punishment". Not saying there aren't women like that, of course there are but so there are men like that and so there are men and women who are just plain bad.
As usual, the BBC won't touch this topic with a barge pole. It's like domestic violence. There will be a long article about men beating up there partners and then tacked on the end an apologetic sentence "and sometimes, occasionally, probably with good readon and because she drove him too it, men can be physically abused too". Statistics? Next time you hear the "2 women are murdered every week by their partners" statistic, remember it came from (I thnk) the year 1998 when 80 women were murdere (which is of course less than 2 a week but let;'s not quibble) but in the same year 60 men were murdered in similar circumstances. 80 and 60. hardly indicitive of the one way traffic the likes of Harriet Harman would have you believe.....
Still, waste of time pointing any of this out, the BBC has its stance. Men are uniformably evil brutes and women are helpless victims.
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fs @ 273
Saga knows better than anyone the two central things about posters on here
dunno about that, Fubar - what I do know, however, is that whenever anybody raises the sober and reasonable concern that the quality of a Cameron premiership may be compromised by the fact that he's drawn a fair chunk of his leadership team from the same narrow and hyper privileged background which he himself comes from, then you and others of your ilk go absolutely nuts ... treat the bringing up of a perfectly respectable point as proof positive that the person doing so is some sort of crazed, hard left class warrior
which is very disappointing
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andy @ 274
yes, one shouldn't generalise about things like violence and sexual abuse, I certainly try not to - and although almost all issues are political to some extent, this particular one is (IMO) not - or it shouldn't be, rather - my "equality for women" thing is not driven by these sorts of considerations, it's more to do with power/influence in finance, business and politics - that's where the issue is political and where I believe a radical change ... a revolution almost ... would be enormously beneficial - for everyone, that is - it's not about "fairness" or "women are good, men are bad" ... not for me it isn't, anyway - no, it's about upgrading the performance of our financial, business and political institutions - we all agree they need improving, don't we? - and we all agree there are a number of different ways in which that could be done - yes? - right, so all I'm saying is when we get to considering the sort of stuff we ought to be doing, let's not forget the little matter of achieving a far better male/female mix in the composition of the Powers That Be - reason we mustn't forget about it is that (again JIMO) it's without a doubt the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT THING we could do to improve our society
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The reason they go nuts Saga is because while you're attacking that particular characteristic, you repeatedly fail to acknowledge that narrow and privileged backgrounds are not exclusive to the opposition benches.
You attack private education, but when anyone reminds you of the amount of Labour MP's who are privately educated, you brush it off and dont answer it, put your fingers in your ears la-la-la-ing as if it doesnt exist. Which is akin to Brown's "repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth".
Havent we had enough of that kind of politics?
Then you attack those who are multi-millionaires, ignoring the presence of millionaires on your own benches.
Thats why people get mad at it. It reeks of double standards and invites opprobrium by the train-load down on your own head... accompanied by the soft fluttering of a cap, falling through the air that says "class warrior".
If it fits mate, wear it. If you ARE a dyed in the wool class warrior, then fine, be proud, say so. At least we will all know what we are up against.
But to say the things you do, to attack the things you do, when your own side are equally "guilty"... and then to call yourself a floating voter... cant you see that you just need to be straight about what you stand for?
Why is it a sober and reasonable concern where Cameron is concerned, but not where Brown or Blair were concerned? Or was the presence of John Prescott a token corn-doll/garlic clove against those who thought they were selling out to the poshboys?
Come on. I've put it as candidly and as reasonably as I can. Can you answer me HONESTLY as to what the difference is? Like I said, if you are a class warrior, be loud and proud and say so. No-one will think any the less of you. Just say it.
Just dont pretend to be something you arent.
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#274 well said exaclty the point that F4J RFFJ and others have been trying to make. The BBC are part of the problem as well.
#276 yuo really need to talk to someone whom has been through the
process of the FC and its shroued in spin by labour which has made it political. It why the BBC will not go there.
I have phoned R5live many times to talk and ALLWAYS the denied me the chance so the listeners are none the wise
Monday night BBC R4 about the brighton bomb and sercuirty thereafter about MPS they talked about incidents done by Fox people and lesbian activites BUT when it can to those done by F4J and RFFJ they were not mentioned by name but the other where thus airbrusing whom did it from history. The events by F4J/RFFJ where mentioned but not the names.
Do you get the picture.
Thus that why the leo bliar kidnapped plot came about not from F4J but from the top to discredit there actions because the political pressure was mounting.
Sad thing is that Bady P could have been saved if people would listen and that takes you back to the fact that democracy is broken
Do you get the picture now ?
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fubar @ 277
you repeatedly fail to acknowledge that narrow and privileged backgrounds are not exclusive to the opposition benches
but I do - I've many times said that I'd respect, say, Harman more if she hadn't come from privilege
in any case you are (again!) missing the point
the fact that there may be (indeed ARE) "toffs" on the Labour benches is not the same as the Party being led by one, and that Leader drawing a big chunk of his top team and his inner circle from the same narrow, privileged background - that's a concern, and it doesn't cease to become so just because every Labour MP and cabinet member is not a horny handed son of the soil
if you still don't get it, I'm pretty much at my wits end
one last go:
(more in hope than expectation but it's worth one more shot)
your position is like, if someone has a valid concern about the fruit being off at Waitrose ... and says so ... you then go bananas (geddit?) because that person is not also saying (in the same breath) that the fruit at Tesco, whilst not quite as rotten as at Waitrose, is also not in absolutely tip top condition - as if the failure to add the rider invalidates the PRIMARY concern about the distinctly sub optimal Waitrose fruit!
it's crazy, babe, can't you see that?
do YOU balance every criticism you make of Labour with one directed at the Tories? the hell you do
so why should I do the opposite equivalent? ... especially when (as explained above) the opposite in this case is NOT equivalent
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279#
Difference being mate is that I am TRULY a floater. And you can understand that any way you want :-)
You'll see me criticise Cameron and his team quite openly and often. Not maybe as often as I do Gordon and his team and you know why that is. I have a very strong dislike of Gordon partly because of the kind of politician he is, partly because of how he achieved the highest office of state and partly because, as the current sitting incumbent PM, the buck stops with him. I readily admit that.
And I'm not quite sure how Harriets number one fan can respect her any more than you already do, even if she was to transform into a female Dennis Skinner.... ;-)
"Not the same as a party being led by one"... what was Tony Blair then? I think I saw someone post elsewhere that Clem Atlee's cabinet had more old Etonians in it than any other has done before or since? And that didnt stop them achieving a lot did it?
Why is a "narrow and privileged background" as you refer to it any less of a bar to public office than say someone who'se whole professional life has been spent as a SpAd following graduation from uni with a PPPE?
Come on Saga, we're in real danger of finding some middle ground here.
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@ 280 ... we're in real danger of finding some middle ground here
yes and the danger would actually crystallise if you were to accept that "tory toffs" (relax, turn of phrase only!) is a valid concern and not just a class war smear
your choice though, I can't make you do it
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...and I came back here for some peace and harmony.
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well what can I do? ... paid his fiver, says he doesn't like Stevie ... no grounds for exclusion
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- smooth as silk ? - I feel like I need a blue beret today!
The Croftie construct may be a tough old stick but I don't like to see it humiliated & it had had a battering from over the border.
3-0 was not bad and the old war horse Beckham made 2 goals - for all his obvious faults I much prefer him to the overated Gerrard.
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281#
(Pardon me for interjecting, coats...)
Mate, I will when you stop fannying around and answer truthfully the difficult questions instead of just selecting part of what I say and throwing it back.
You still havent told me why it is a valid concern when its the Tories, but not when its Labour or anyone else.... and why is a "narrow and privileged background" as you refer to it any less of a bar to public office than say someone who'se whole professional life has been spent as a SpAd following graduation from uni with a PPPE?
How are they in any way any less disconnected with the public at large?
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@285
No problems - you paid your fiver.
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Saga
Apologies for dumping on you this morning for that nightmare post on NR's Unemployment blog... it was OTT. (that's if you saw the comment)
I watched Brown reading out the long list of names yesterday at PMQs and it was still fresh in my head this morning.
It got to me for reasons I won't bore you with here.
Hope you understand.
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bg @ 287
I watched a thing on the Marchioness the other day ... there is nothing more sobering/moving than reading out a list of the names (doing it properly, that is) - it turns a stat of, say, 53 into what it really is ... a tragedy
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I can't believe I am saying this but Nigel Farage actually came across quite well on QT. Damien Green was unbelievably smug and Alan Johnson did not strike me as a man destined for the top job.
Interesting to see Ms Smith got as big a boo as Nick Griffin.
Must hide the gin bottle before QT next week, my judgment is being impaired.
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yes, Jacqui S got bigger boo'd than Nick Griffin!
that's definitely saying something but I'm not sure what it is
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I normally defend female MP's who get an exceptionally bad press, but Jacqui Smith is one I cannot defend.
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@ 289
Nigel Farage actually came across quite well
he often does, doesn't he? - he goes for that "I'm a man with common sense" type vibe and he pulls it off pretty well most of the time
and next week ... Griffin ... that's a Must See!
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#288 perhaps GB could also read out a list of names of children that have died because of there failure to act when warned about the fiasco that is the social servies.
what do you thing of that. Maybe I have them on the front cover of my book
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WLW @ 215
you been reading the Daily Mail again?
things can get a bit heated on here Willy, I understand that, but this sort of comment is beyond the pale ... completely outside the boundaries of civilised discourse
suggest you retract
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If we wave a white flag will they leave the Scotland issue alone?
The insults have started again - and logic just flies out of the window as the red mist descends. Quite funny how many posters from north of the border have joined the attack - I fear for Crofties blood pressure because she cannot resist the bait.
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a mention of Oil/Libya (not me, Guv) and now look!
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I fear your wit may be wasted - it's all terribly serious today.
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seems to be a minefield (doesn't it?) this E vs S thing - can't say it's something I think about that much but, gee, others clearly do! - Suze doing surprisingly okay in the latest exchanges, as far as I can see - all getting a bit "samey" though - on that TV debate for "possible next PMs" issue, btw, we can't interprete that too literally (can we?) else it'll be just Cameron having a chat with himself - none too exciting
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I know this sound pathetic but I always feel very protective towards the Croft construct who I like to think of as some "luscious babe" in a faraway place who needs protecting of course it could be some big bloke in Basingstoke with a propensity to cross dressing who I would not want to meet in a dark alley. It's odd how we transpose real people onto our constructs.....of course that may be me fantacising..
On balance I thinking the Scotish independence is out of our hands and cannot get overly worried about it at this stage.
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translated into English that reads
"On balance I think that Scottish independence is out of our hands and I cannot get overly worried about it at this stage."
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SI, yes, that's about it, my position is I don't really have one - and anonymity is one of the internet's minor fascinations, isn't it? - it's probably the hermit who actually looks like Marilyn Monroe
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Well apart from biscuitgate it is a decidely news free zone at the moment.
I had the Hermit more in the Andrew Cruickshank role aka Dr Cameron [no pun intended] but I must admit Hermit likes the last word so it could be Marilyn.
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All right.. you can have my fiver.
Anything to get away from neophobes, conspiracy theorists, racists and... numpties.
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well we completely "blog out" on the BNP on Andrew, and then Nick comes up with a little piece on ... the BNP!
sod's law
so, are you guys going to watch QT on Thursday?
bet you Griffin does okay
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The Mods are either Liverpool supporters or mates of Nick Griffin.
Hey ho.
As I was saying, I think Straw will be ineffective due to a less than spotless record, Griffin will have done his homework...Warsi is too emotional so Huhne and Greer are the best bets.
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interesting to hear Griffin now using the "Tory Toffs" line - guess the more he attacks the Tories, the better he's positioned to attract the oft mentioned "white working class" vote - I'd like to accuse Griffin of dog whistle, class war politics but something stopped me!
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307#
"I'd like to accuse Griffin of dog whistle, class war politics but something stopped me!"
Ha ha.. what would that be then mate? :-)))
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#308
Truth is, the BNP is a conundrum that the left have problems with. There they are, middle class, left leaning, theoretical socialists, waving the flag for the working class but who is it that the BNP attract? The working classes.
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@ 309
Andy, it's a £5 fee (one off) and a declaration that Stevie Gerrard is the world's most overrated footballer in order to be on this Blog
have you done both of those?
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310
Excellent post.
What is it you do again? I forget.
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311#
He's obviously unemployed.
Probably a few hours a week handing out copies of the Socialist Worker in front of Finchley Road Tube station or the Evening Standard at Golders Green bus terminus....
.....or he has an Ipod Touch near an open wifi hotspot whilst wearing a sandwich board with the words "GOLF SALE >>>>" printed on it in big red letters....
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well you two cheeky chappies seem absolutely fascinated with me ... it's nice!
but look I've TOLD you, haven't I? - my main "job" is Exploder of Reactionary Myths
and not just on here either, I also do it when I'm out and about ... no rest for an EORM I'm afraid! ... that's right, I'm always on duty - when I meet people in the street (usually quite posh people in fairly posh streets, but still) I explode their RMs if I get the chance - fact, that's ALL I do - like, if I meet a person and they DON'T come out with at least a couple of silly head reactionary myths for me to explode, do you know what tends to happen? ... I just walk away!
I take it very seriously, guys - it's a worthwhile occupation
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Only the other day I saw sagamix on the street.
"knock knock" I said.
"who's there?" he replied.
"Biggish"
"Big ish who"
"Sorry mate, I've no loose change"
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#313
Not surprised that you put "job" in quotation marks. I'm sure you've read about them. Isn't that what working class heroes do?
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hey but to be serious Andy (just for a second) what's your problem with what I do, or I don't do, on the job front? - I mean okay, I AM fully (and gainfully) employed as an EORM (313 bla bla) but if I wasn't ... if I was unemployed ... so what?
you can't think that the political views of someone who's unemployed are worth less than those of, say, a Tax "Advisor" such as yourself ... can you?
or can you?
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#316
It's just odd that you can't actually admit to your employment status.
You can't have something to hide can you?
Or can you?
(anyone unemployed and seeking work is fine by me. Anyone sat on their bottom doing nothing ought to be looking in the mirror, long and hard, before they tell anyone about anything - agreed?)
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No
you're coming over, Andy, as being a little ... I dunno ... prescriptive?
what you're always accusing the "Left" of being, come to think of it!
one is "allowed" in Andyland to be retired, for example?
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#318
If you are retired, count yourself as one of the "chosen people".
Labour is doing its best to ensure there are as few retired people as possible. They'd prefer us all to work until we drop.
Are you drawing a pension? Hopefully so, a product of sound tax planning and worth every penny paid to the tax advisors who set it up and run it.
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retired? or just tired? ... whatever!
hey, you don't half blog out yourself for a "high powered" Tax Ad
not neglecting those clients of yours, I hope
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No, I work smarter, not harder.
read that on a poster at work.
If you do ever decide to retire abroad, don't forget to claim DTR on your pension. Wouldn't want you to suffer the wrong amount of tax.
That's my job. Making sure everyone pays the right amount of tax. Think of me as a taxation "Batman". Righting wrongs and looking after the little guy, whose tax free contributions have over the years added up to the tax free pension pot he now draws from (except that bit about Brown nicking the dividend credits. Couldn't do anything about that, I'm afraid. Cost billions, I know, but i'm sure Mr Brown did something useful with the money...like...um...er.)
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Carlsberg don't do stereotypes...
but Steven Gerrard does.
(Just earning my membership)
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@ 322
you're a core member now Blame, don't worry - and so's my friend Andy!
we can restrict ourselves to a "renewal" ceremony once a week - no £5 (that's done) just a bit of "Stevie is pants" chanting
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a @ 321
Think of me as a taxation "Batman". Righting wrongs and looking after the little guy whose tax free contributions have over the years added up to the tax free pension pot he now draws
I will Andy I will! - it's a nice image
and who's The Riddler?
can that be me?
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Engelbert Humperdinck's 942 on E&U sums him up, I can't say in a nutshell, better than any of his other contributions.
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Can't keep up with the blogs at the moment - the day job is a bit onerous at present.
Any vacancies for EORMs - sounds like my kind of job - by the way it works both ways - debunking all ideologies - I assume it subscribes to equal opportunities left and right?
BG@322
You get a refund for that.
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hello Coats ... yes absolutely! ... no lock on this job
e.g. you can be a DOSC if you like
a Debunker Of Socialist Claptrap
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@327
...might be a lot of competition for that job - be careful where you advertise.
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Quite a few throwing their hat in the ring over at NR.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
330.
For goodness sake mods, Andy Capp is/was a cartoon character...
Refer it to someone older than 21 please.
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@331
...yup, I qualify, I remember Andy Capp.
Not sure what QT contributed to the debate last night - to me Griffin was as evasive and as duplicitous as ever - but I would say that.
However some of his comments may resonate with the "little Englanders", who will find an excuse for him. Sadly outside of the big cities those views are not as uncommon as the chattering classes would like to believe.
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coats @ 332
I found it all a touch embarrassing to be honest
can you ban a party because they make you feel like that?
if not, you should be able to
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@333 Saga
Yes, it was rather stage managed and Warsi/Straw and Huhne were all vying to be all more anti BNP that each other, like kids in playground.
I understand why the BBC did this but hope they don't feel they need a repeat performance in the near future.
However I did love Greers cool handling of Griffin - the lady is a class act.
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fabulous voice too ... could listen to it forever
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Looks like they've bussed in the Millwall supporters' club on Nick's latest entry.
334. Greer was quality. Griffin lecturing her on the KKK, priceless.
331. If I were casting for Andy Capp, the movie...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/gallery/2009/oct/22/bnp-question-time?picture=354629690
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What if we had a parade celebrating being straight? We'd be treated like Nick Griffin was last night. It would be assumed we were anti gay
yes, if you were to throw yourself into putting together an enormous National Parade to celebrate being Straight, I think we would draw a tentative conclusion that you may just be a little bit anti Gay!
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Well, thats the shutters down for the weekend on Nicks blogs then...
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337. At 5:49pm on 23 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
What if we had a parade celebrating being straight? We'd be treated like Nick Griffin was last night. It would be assumed we were anti gay
yes, if you were to throw yourself into putting together an enormous National Parade to celebrate being Straight, I think we would draw a tentative conclusion that you may just be a little bit anti Gay
*************************************
But if it was only a small parade say, 500,000 or thereabouts - roughly half the number at the anti-hunting lobby - would we only be seen as so minutely anti-gay that we wouldn't be regarded as anti-gay at all?
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fs @ 338
yes, just as well!
was an okay debate, I thought, but I'm rather worried ... no kidding I am ... about the apparent level of support for the BNP
okay, the problematical posts almost always start off with something along the lines of "I'm no supporter of the BNP but ..." but the BUT is apposite for most of them because said offering usually goes on to opine (or very strongly imply) that one of the principal problems in Britain today is too much ethnic diversity - you and I both know that's nuts (right?) but there really ARE, it would seem, a fair few people out there who think that way - don't like it, Fubar, don't like it one little bit
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@ 339 ... but if it was only a small parade, say 500,000 or thereabouts?
wow ... I'd love to know what you think is a Big one, Mr Z!
(no, don't answer that!)
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337.
A Straight Parade? Celebrating centuries of freedom to openly practise one's Straightness without fear of recrimination.
May be a bit dull, though, no sequins, no lycra. What would the floats be? Any ideas?
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340#
Indeed. There will have been a number of trolls on there no doubt; I dare say that the BNP are just as aware of the usefulness of the blogspace as much as the rest of us.
However mate, there are people out there who will vote for them, make no mistake. People you wouldnt believe would do such a thing.
I'm not even sure its about diversity to be honest mate. Diversity isnt the problem. The problem is perception. I have friends and work colleagues of all races and creeds, some who I' ve met recently in Europe, others I went to school with and have stayed in touch with who are mates for life.
There has to be room for a reasoned debate on things like immigration without the R word being mentioned. Politics is such a multi-layered subject touching all our lives that we cant keep on sweeping it under the carpet. I'm not going to get into all the who should have done what, thats been done to death. Suffice it to say, we have to be adult about it all.
After all, it works in reverse - the amount of Brits abroad working as ex-pats like myself seem to rub along OK wherever we are - so long as we do, as in Rome, I guess - so why is it such a difficult subject back in the UK?
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@ 343
an Adult conversation about Immigration? sure I'm up for that (no don't worry, not now!) but one thing's for sure, any such debate we DO have can't involve Nick "London isn't part of Britain" Griffin
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@ 342
mmm, the Floats ... well I suppose we could have a giant blow up Jeremy Clarkson on one of them, couldn't we?
hey, just seen a clip of the Postal Workers' picket line
"Oh Mandy ... Well you came and you stole all our pensions," they were singing
funny
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@343 & 344
Any reasonable debate about immigration just gets hijacked and perverted.
We probably do need to have a discussion about it but if NuLab cannot do it, the Tories would have no chance. NuLab were the best placed party to hold reasoned discussions without any accusations of xenophobia but they flunked the opportunity.
Still don't know whether we are grown up enough for that debate - which ironically many of asian and african carribean communitees would support.
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@346
or even caribbean.
Must start to use preview more
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345.
"Oh Mandy ...
When faced with extinction humour is the only way to go.
347.
Chuckled when that woman took Straw to task for saying Afro Caribbean.
Jack has to get down more.
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346 etc.
Some of the cliches on the BNP blog have been around for decades.
It's like we take 3 steps forward and two steps back.
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341. At 6:57pm on 23 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
@ 339 ... but if it was only a small parade, say 500,000 or thereabouts?
wow ... I'd love to know what you think is a Big one, Mr Z!
******************
Well as it's the first parade I didn't want to be too ambitious. The figure isn't completely random; I'm told the Gay/Straight ratio is about 1 in 10 and the average Gay Pride attracts about 50,000.
I thought we'd start the parade on say Clapham Common. Straightforward enough place to get to and all that. Move along to Hyde Park, drinking only real ale and talking about rugby on the way.
Spend the night in the open there - no tents, caravans or motor-homes - can't have accusations of camping on a Straight Pride parade can we?
Moving on to Hampstead Heath on the Sunday. Strikes me as a most appropriate place to demonstrate how Not-Anti-Gay we are.
Dates to be announced.
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Dates to be announced
well don't forget to give me some advance notice, will you? - at least 2 weeks, preferably, because I'll need to make arrangements ... alternative arrangements!
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"racism is a generic term, that's true, and can therefore apply to any individual or group - however one has to recognise that, historically, it's principally been a White on Others (and especially Black) monstrosity - it's important to know this because otherwise we will trivialise the issue - the average white Briton, whilst able to conceptualise what racism is, cannot really feel it"
It really is utter nonsense to say that historically racism has been a white on others issue. What about the Japanese in China in the 1920's & 30's? what about India and Pakistan and the race riots that followed partition? What about Africa and the Rwandan genocide in the 1990's? Were the hundreds of thousands klled as a result of a surplus of brotherly love? Why did Africans enslave each other and Arabs join in the trade hundreds of years before any white man got involved? There have been racial attacks in this country by blacks on Asians and vice versa. There is currently a trial about an alleged honour killng supposedly prompted because a girl went out with the wrong SORT of muslim. Virtually every race has at some point believed itself superior to others and behave badly towards them as a result. That's what racism is. Of all the nonsensical things you've said on these BBs, his one has to be the current top of the pile.
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Andy @ 352
yes, as you say, it's something that's reared its ugly head many times in different guises at different times in different places - and you're right, I should rephrase what I said - and I will; where Whites are involved, they are almost always the ones doing it, not the ones on the receiving end ... that's more accurate, isn't it? which means ... and this remains my point ... that it's next to impossible for the average White Briton (and I include myself, obviously) to understand racism in the way that, say, a Black Briton can - it's perhaps possible to point to historical examples of racism perpetrated by non Whites on Whites (maybe you have some?) but any such examples are rather swamped by those in the other direction
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353#
Just because they may be swamped in the direction they are Saga, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. I'm afraid you're guilty of a sweeping generalisation.
You go out after dark in parts of the East End, parts of Lambeth & Brixton or Southwark or Peckham (where Hattie has a stabproof vest even in broad daylight) or any of the northern cities like Blackburn, Bradford, Luton or Burnley... you'll find it. Those are the kind of places where the BNP plays on local fears and perceptions and makes hay whilst the sun shines. But the problem was there before the BNP was.
Or maybe you see it as the vociferous defence of the local community's values and culture from being eroded and diluted by the all pervading white man?
Maybe the cultures and traditions of the Bengali, Afro-Caribbean and Pakistani communities are more historically contiguous (rather than mongrel evolutionary like the British/English) and therefore in need of protection and nurturing by the state and society than anyone elses?
What you say about how the typical white Briton cant understand what it feels like is largely true. But what Andy says is also true. If you ever leave the sheltered environs of Hampstead for somewhere like Dubai or Saudi and see how the locals treat the imported labour from the Indian sub-continent, you'd see a particularly pernicious form of racism, every bit as bad as you see over here.
You might also want to bear in mind that although it is far from perfect, the UK is seen as one of the more tolerant and inclusive societies of the western world and we have made big positive strides over the last 30 years. Certainly more so than France and Germany. Thats not to say that its gone away. But its not as bad as it used to be. Thats why the BNP are minority, not mainstream.
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@ 354 ... the UK is seen as one of the more tolerant and inclusive societies of the western world
and I'd really like to keep it that way
puts the "Great" in Great Britain
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355#
Yes, providing we're all as EH says, on the same level and no superiority or inferiority complexes on any side. Thats a two way street you know Saga. Its nut just for the white population to do because they're in the majority. When in Rome and all that.
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"where Whites are involved, they are almost always the ones doing it" - sagamix
Again, you try to simplify because you cannot admit you are wrong.
When the japanese are involved in racism they are almost always the ones doing it (ask the Chinese, ask philipinos, ask white POW's in WWII).
when Aficans are involved in racism they are almost always the ones doing it (unless you are somehow saying that black on black racism is somehow different - I think the Hutu and Tutsis would disagree, I think the peoples that the Zulus conquered would disagree).
When Arabs are involved in racism they are almost always the ones who are doing it. They enslaved africans and europeans because they believed themselves to be superior to both.
When the Incas were involved in racism they were the ones doing it. they conquered, they slaughtered and they believed themselves to be right.
Obvously racism is more common on "home territory". But that is the same for whatever race. Obviously, empire building nations assume themselves to be superior and behave accordingly. But that is the same for whatever race.
Fubar makes the point about the racist way that those from the middle east treat labourers from the Indian sub-continent but you cannot, just cannot bring yourself to deal with what he says and once again quote one small piece from waht he says and then you try to make some smug one line riposte. There is worse, more pernicious, more vile and more foul racism being committed today in parts of the world by non-whites than has been committed in Europe since the stench of the Nazis was destroyed.
And you say that it is vital to our understanding that we realise it's all about the 'whte man' being the bad guy. I'm sure those responsible for some of the worst atrocities being committed today would want the same thing being thought as true.
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"historical examples of racism perpetrated by non Whites on Whites (maybe you have some?)"
I'm sure you'll be able to think of why it's different, but Mr Mugabe's treatment of white farmers hasn't been awfully reasonable.
Flying planes into buildings in America isn't normally thought of as a bridge building exercise but I'm sure there's a brotherly love execuse.
As far as I can work out, Arabs and Europeans argued over tracts of lands that neither really had any right to own for centuries. It wasn't a case of the europeans wanting to fight and the Arabs wanting to play chess over the problem. Both sides were involved in some bloody slaughters.
So having started from some grand-standing point that racism is a one-way street dominated by the 'bad white guy', if you want to retreat to "the chances are that if you are the predominant race in a particular area in any part of the world then an influx of people from different parts can lead to an increase in xenophobia and racism and that the local population are less likely to experience the negative aspects of that" then yes, I will accept your stance in opinion.
Otherwise I have to still contend that you are talking nonsense.
So, which is it to be?
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@ 357
no Andy, you're misunderstanding
say a racist piece of history has a perpetrating group (P) and a victim group (V) okay? right, so we have as follows:
- plenty where P is white and V is non white (my original post)
- plenty where both P and V are non White (your amendment which I agreed)
but where P is non White and V is white? - not so many - that's where we got to - you've taken us backwards rather, haven't you?
nb: please try not to confuse the quantity of words in a post with its quality
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359#
Saga, youre mistaking Hampstead for the world.
There is life outside the Finchley Road and the North Circular Rd you know. You probably wont see much of any kind of racism in your part of town, save for white van man and some of the locals making disparaging remarks about ANY kind of outsider under their breath.
Racism, like football hooliganism, is not just a white English problem.
Self loathing may be alive and well in Hampstead, you may be ashamed of seeing either the Union Flag or the Cross Of St George flying over any public building and you may hate our class-pervaded imperial past where we were invariably the bad guys, but the Republican Nuclear Free Socialist Borough Of Islington does not speak for the whole country.
By all means say what you see, but not just because you've seen it in Tribune, the Socialist Worker or the Grauniad.
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Andy @ 358
some grandstanding point that racism is a one way street dominated by the 'bad white guy'
ah okay, I read this after replying to your 357 (hope you're not about to do another before I post this!) - the main point I'm making is that the average White Briton cannot understand racism in the way that say a Black Briton can - I think that's a point worth making and I stand by it completely - was my original post grandstanding? yes perhaps so, and I can see why it might have got your goat - certainly it's NOT true to say that racism is always a one way street with Whites as perpetrators and non Whites as victims - there are, as you pointed out, plenty of examples of non White on non White racism - also, although neither of us have mentioned it, there has been plenty of White on White racism in the form of anti semitism - think I pretty much acknowledged your correction in my 353, didn't I? - did I thank you for it too? I didn't (did I?) so allow me to do so now - but the point remains - the average White British person cannot truly understand racism because they (the White British) ... or We rather ... do not have a history of being on the receiving end of it - hope you're cool with that as a conclusion to replace your overly generic/anodyne one
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fs @ 360
you could perhaps consider engaging with the issue instead of lazy stereotyping
up to you, babe
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362#
Haha, touche, Saga.
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362#
Further to that Saga, I've had a minute or two to ruminate on it.
I say what I see and what I've learned by travelling around and from where I was brought up. All that man of the world stuff that you're so dismissive of, not theory and think tank stuff.
I have engaged with the issue and if anyone questions me, I do my best to answer them as directly and honestly as I can. If I cant back something up I say so and qualify my comments. I can say that of any subject I make a contribution to. I dont tout my opinions as gospel and whilst I may disagree quite vocally with someone, I only play dirty if they do. I dont believe in people in glass houses throwing stones. And I dont get into an exchange of views with someone and then when I'm under pressure dismiss their argument with a curt virtual wave of the hand and a disparaging remark. If I've had a disagreement with someone it is either mutual loathing or I find a way of restoring some sort of accord and trying to discuss subjects in an adult fashion.
I'm perfectly capable of either being corrected or agreeing to disagree. I try my absolute best to see the conviction in someone elses argument before I reply and try and understand why.
Very rarely if at all does an answer or a qualification of an answer ever have to be dragged out of me.
I and a significant other number of posters cannot say the same of you. Andy and I have both tried and the reply has been "yes but, yes but". For someone who is meant to be progressive, you're incredibly fixed in your views.
Seems my Islington Loony Left jibe must have struck a raw nerve....
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358. AndyC555
"I'm sure you'll be able to think of why it's different, but Mr Mugabe's treatment of white farmers hasn't been awfully reasonable."
Not a great example; without making excuses for Bob...
none of the local folk invited the white farmers to settle there. And the treatment of the some indigenous folk by white settlers was none too reasonable either.
Which relates to your next point, I think.
We can talk about colonisation by different races at length, but discussions about the BNP and their policies, written or unwritten, boil down to racism based on the dislike, mistrust or loathing of the colour of someone's skin.
When you see photographs of a young Nick Griffin wearing a 'white power' T-shirt, that much becomes apparent.
Of course there are black people who feel the same way towards whites, religious groups who are antagonistic towards non-believers... but are they standing for the European parliament or your local council? That's the worrying part.
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sagamix.
If more white countries had been invaded and dominated by non-white cultures, I am sure you would find more examples of non-white against white attrocities. The point is, so what? Most people's histories are dominated by what happened to them a few years ago, not what happened to their ancestors 500 years ago.
The point is we are supposed to move on. My grandfather probably thought whites were inheritantly superior to blacks. I have a Chinese friend who says she knows her Chinese grandfathet thought they were superior to westeners (and she has some jaw droping views on afro caribbeans herself, which i am STILL trying to counter). I'm currently dating a girl who traces her ancestry back to Zulus who fought at Fourkes drift. She CERTAINLY thinks her people are better than the whites who colonised South Africa and the other black afican tribes her people conquered. Why not start a campaign to have her thrown out of the country for her racist views?
A mixed bag, I'd say.
That's the thing. the right-wing live in a world of shades, whites, blacks greys, opportunities and in-betweens. In the left-wing world it is all RIGHT or wrong. and hysterical shouting in-between.
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#365
Yeah, you know what, i know that the owner of some land near me only owns it because of his ancestor stealing it from the rightful saxon owners, so that gives me the right to attack him, murder his family and replace a thriving (bread basket of the continent) economy with a wasteland which results in the death of many of the citizens of the country. i ought to be given the nobel peace prize, me.
Zimbabwe, oddly, is actuallly an example where the white colonisation of a country really did turn its previoulsly benighted fortunes around. It ain't the case "dat the white guy is de bad guy" all the time.
As for your views on the BNP, almost certainly the same as mine. Horrible little lot.
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Evening Andy@366
Just checking on behalf of the committee that you have paid your £5 admission and have done the Gerrard is pants bit.
PS I think Tuffers rode his luck tonight (our other guilty secret)
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365#
TBG, I understand what you're saying, one form of racism does not balance out or excuse any other. And, most of the overseas ones that Andy and I have referred to do not affect us in the UK directly on a daily basis or have an influence on the future of the nation, whereas the BNP do. I can understand that and I accept it.
I think the points that Andy and I have brought up are slightly different, in that the BNP havent scored just short of a million votes for nothing. They are not selling their party on the doorstep to the electorate by saying "Hi, I'm you're local BNP candidate in the forthcoming elections and by the way, I'm a holocaust denier and a racist."
All they have to do to sell the party on the doorstep is only to say five little words and no others at all.
"We will listen to you"
Thats all it takes.
Regardless of how odious one might think the voters views may be, they are still voters, nonetheless and votes equals seats equals political influence and a footstep on the gravy train. None of us are so naive to think that all our politicians are in it for what they can do for us, not any more. Now, not at any point am I disputing the hideousness of the BNP, their affiliates and their leadership. All of the main parties have either done things in power or advocated things in opposition that they have cause to regret and that have done real harm to the country.
The problem is, the attitudes we have been discussing, the prejudices, the real or percieved grievances that these voters have, have been around a lot longer than since the BNP started scoring votes in the volumes they have done.
If the people with those feelings are already feeling ignored and disenfranchised, to alienate them further by saying "you're all pig ignorant, uneducated racists and its all in your imagination and we'd rather stick pins in our eyes than do anything to have your votes" is somewhat counterproductive, especially if you are meant to be a party campaigning on a ticket of social justice, reducing child poverty and social mobility.
All it does is push them into the arms of the extremists who have no such qualms about saying whatever they need to say in order to score the votes. Doesnt matter to them where they come from, they are shameless. Sometimes thats all they need to say. "We will listen to you". They dont even need to follow it up afterwards with a manifesto commitment. After all, we all know how meaningless they are. By that point, the vote is in the bag and the Returning Officer has spoken.
But the whole thing about the vote and liberal democracy is that everyone is meant to have a say. Or are some peoples voices worth less than others because they happen to be ignorant, or ill educated or ill informed? Or because they have prejudices?
Everybody has prejudices, or dislikes of some form or another against either people, countries, companies, parties, diseases, whatever, that are based on ignorance. Everybody. Nobody, but nobody knows everything.
The best way to address prejudice is education and the dissemination of information, not dogma and propaganda. Not dismissive waves of the hand and pointing the finger.
And for as long as Labour continue to do that on the sink estates and in the areas where the locals PERCIEVE that there may be a problem, their vote will continue to melt away and gravitate towards the BNP.
We know how bad the BNP are. But its moved beyond that to cause and effect.
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coats ... mmm, he's got complacent - thinks his jack the lad charm is going to take him all the way - goodbye monster bet is what I'm thinking
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367.
Yeah, you know what, i know that the owner of some land near me only owns it because of his ancestor stealing it from the rightful saxon owners, so that gives me the right to attack him,..etc.
That's lame Andy.
Like I said, I'm not excusing Bob... but you made the Zim point first (Bloody hell, I'm sounding like The Hermit now!)
There's a difference between contemporary politics and ancient history, we're supposed to be more civilised.
"That's the thing. the right-wing live in a world of shades, whites, blacks greys, opportunities and in-betweens. In the left-wing world it is all RIGHT or wrong. and hysterical shouting in-between."
And that's even more lame! And I'm not even a left whinger.
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andy/fubar
apart from telling me how you've lived rounded lives and are deep deep thinkers on all matters political (and I believe you, honestly I do!) I'm not really sure what point you two Troubadours are trying to make - my (rather modest) one was that the average White Briton can't truly understand racism in the way that certain others can - and I think we all accept that now, don't we? - so I'm happy
but ... I dunno ... I'm sensing that you both want to say something more am I right? - is it about the BNP? - do you think I'm being too "Black and White" in my opposition to them?
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@ 369
I can understand that and I accept it
Eureka!
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@370
...only 14/1 at the moment - still tipped for the semis.
Best to save your bonus for a couple of weeks
- may be harder to come by next year [LOL]!
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372#
Then go back and read 369 properly mate. Especially the bit about cause and effect.
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@ 375
no thank you ... once was more than sufficient
2 "points" you seem to be making:
"Don't point fingers"
I'm not
but neither will I allow Political Correctness to prevent me from calling a spade a spade - in this case the "spade" being the racist nature of both the BNP and their core vote
Cause and Effect
yes, important to analyse that - and I have - the Cause is stunted opportunity in deprived working class areas and the Effect is anger which (in some of the affected people) is wrongly directed at minority groups
I support policies to address the Cause
you don't
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376#
"......Policies to affress the cause."
Like what?
What Policies? Are you having a laugh?
I dont know what the policies ARE to address the cause Saga. If I dont know about them, how can I possibly support them?
I would venture as well that you dont know much if anything about any such policies either:
a) because it would mean pursuing something other than a middle England/Metropolitan agenda and
b) Those policies, under this current Labour administration Do Not Exist, not even as aspirations, let alone worthless election pledges, or even more worthless Manifesto Commitments...
If they did, why would the vote be collapsing in favour of the BNP? Wouldnt the policies be working and delivering results?
Honestly, mate.... anything to avoid giving a straight answer to a straight question.....
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"All they have to do to sell the party on the doorstep is only to say five little words and no others at all.
"We will listen to you"
Thats all it takes."
Fubar, rarely is a nail hit more firmly on the head.
The English (and i use English rather than British as the BNP support seems almost totally within England) view of life is predominatly tolerant. We are. We've been a succesful nation (winning two world wars and one world cup - haha) and are one of the few nations that cheerfully laughs at itself. The BNP are growing in support because there is a PERCEPTION in some areas that ethnic minorities are getting preferential treatment at a time when the economy is doing badly. Whether the perception is true or not doesn't matter if people's grumbles are not listened to. If you are not particularly bright, out of work and feel that the Government is doing litle for you and you hear about a grant for this, that or the other ethnic group you feel peeved and when no-one else listens to you and the BNP say they will, who do you vote for?
I say again and again that I think the BNP are a nasty party and i wish they didn't have the support they do but the way to reduce their influence is not to demonise them but to draw away from them those who vote for them.
As for calling any of my arguments 'lame' without actually countering them. That's a bit lame. I think Mr Mugabe is a racist. Would anyone disagree or defend him?
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378#
Well, it seemed obvious to me anyway mate... :-)
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#365 "Not a great example; without making excuses for Bob...
none of the local folk invited the white farmers to settle there. And the treatment of the some indigenous folk by white settlers was none too reasonable either."
um, actually they did. The 'local folk' for the most part sold land to white settlers.
"without making excuses for Bob" whilst at the same time seeming to make an excuse for Bob?
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a @ 378
The BNP are growing in support because there is a PERCEPTION in some areas that ethnic minorities are getting preferential treatment at a time when the economy is doing badly
agreed
I wish they didn't have the support they do but the way to reduce their influence is not to demonise them but to draw away from them those who vote for them
semi agreed
it's important to make it clear (as many times as is necessary) that a vote for the BNP is a racist choice - that's not demonising, that's a necessary piece of truth telling
but yes, your other bit is right - we need some policies ... not just talk, talk is cheap ... policies to help the people in these areas so as to (as you nicely put it) "draw them away" from the BNP
for me, a lot of those policies involve state activism - targeting in particular education, jobs and housing in these deprived working class areas
but okay, that's just me and I recognise that people more to the Right of the political spectrum may have some other ways of achieving the same objective (of turning the white working class off the BNP)
so, good we agree on the objective ... we're maybe getting somewhere! ... and I've give you an idea of what I'd like to do (large scale, targeted public investment in schools, jobs, housing) in order to achieve it
what about YOU Andy? (and you, Fubar, if you like ... feel free)
give me a couple of things you'd like to do about it
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"large scale, targeted public investment in schools, jobs, housing" - sagamix.
Like a magic wand. No need to think about funding it or how to implement it, just say the words and who would dare to disagree?
Personally, I'd make everyone taller, fitter, healthier, more intelligent, more tollerant and better looking. I'd create a magic money tree that grew gold bullion to fund it all so we wouldn't have to worry about things like affordability and 'the real world'.
Then I'd stop silly cynics from pointing out that simply saying something doesn't always make it so and that maybe spending money we don't have is just creating problems for the future, like the longest recession since records began.
Then, when all that was done, I might think that maybe, just maybe, with 5 million adults in the country not working, that leting more adults into the country willy-nilly wasn't necessarily a good idea.
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380. AC555
"um, actually they did. The 'local folk' for the most part sold land to white settlers."
Have you done much reading on this subject?
Look up a 1918 Privy Council ruling ceding land in Southern Rhodesia to the Crown and the Land Apportionment Act of 1930 and its consequences.
Also look up CJ Rhodes and the BSAC while you're at it.
Ask yourself did the indigenous farmers have the capital to buy the land that was carved up and offered to them? Who received the most productive land?
How am I making excuses for Mugabe? Just pointing out the chain of historical events. Land expropriation is a double-edged sword.
On the BNP, what makes some "white working class" people reject them out of hand while others with the same backgrounds and living conditions are drawn to them? Can't be education.
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381#
I'll give you my solutions in due course Saga, but you wont like them.
You'll see it as pandering to racism, I guarantee it.
But, we'll see. Domestic duties awaiting me, I'm afraid.
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#383
Yes, the original 'carve up' of land followed agreements between the white settlers and the Matabele tribe. The matabele were themselves invaders and conquerers of the lands they agreed to give away.
Subsequent clashes led to war and the defeat of the Matabele. But were they any more the 'rightful' owners of the land? How far back should one go to justify the (modern day) killing of people who have peacefully farmed lands for generations because of the actions of their ancestors?
You and Bob are both keen to put more emphasis on what happened generations ago rather than on what is happening today.
What Mugabe is doing is racist. Has a single black farmer lost land under Mugabe?
This debate started as i was asked to give an example of black against white racism. Why does it always seem necessary for some to find an 'excuse' for it when it happens?
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a @ 382
that letting more adults into the country willy nilly wasn't necessarily a good idea
okay you don't like the targeted public investment idea - not a big surprise - agree to disagree on that
so let's take a look at your idea, shall we?
what you've said above is all well and good (I disagree with it but never mind that for now) however it's a statement of what HAS happened when what we're looking for is what SHOULD happen from now onwards
can we hear from you on that please, Andrew?
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f @ 384
You'll see it as pandering to racism, I guarantee it
only if it's pandering to racism
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81. At 10:43am on 25 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
a @ 378
...but yes, your other bit is right - we need some policies ... not just talk, talk is cheap ... policies to help the people in these areas so as to (as you nicely put it) "draw them away" from the BNP....
===
Would that include a policy of deceiving your core vote in an act of social engineering and of political spite against your opponents?
"The huge increases in migrants over the last decade were partly due to a politically motivated attempt by ministers to radically change the country and "rub the Right's nose in diversity", according to Andrew Neather, a former adviser to Tony Blair, Jack Straw and David Blunkett.
He said Labour's relaxation of controls was a deliberate plan to "open up the UK to mass migration" but that ministers were nervous and reluctant to discuss such a move publicly for fear it would alienate its "core working class vote".
As a result, the public argument for immigration concentrated instead on the economic benefits and need for more migrants."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html
Doesn't this latest revelation about the spitefulness and mendacity of President Blair and Labour merely add further weight to the BNP's argument that Labour no longer cares or listens to its traditional core vote.
This is precisely the reason why support is leeching from Labour to the BNP and this revelation, once widely publicised will bring even more support to the BNP.
Unintended consequences, yet again.
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"what you've said above is all well and good (I disagree with it but never mind that for now) however it's a statement of what HAS happened when what we're looking for is what SHOULD happen from now onwards"
Crikey, we are being obtuse today.
What HAS happened is that we've ben letting more adults into the country willy-nilly without thinking it might not be necesarily a good idea. Remember that Labour expected 13,000 eastern europeans to migrate? they got 770,000. Now, not saying that's necesarily a bad thing BUT with no plans or lmits AT ALL, we run the theoretical possibility that it's 7,000,000. Or even 70,000,000.
So, what you want is what SHOULD happen? I do think I said that letting people willy-nilly into the country wasn't a good idea. So clearly I'm suggesting that stops. Then we do what the Germans have just done. Announce tax cuts (Germany, by the way, is the country that came out of recession 6 months ago while we are in the depths of the worst recession since records began in the 1950's PARTLY exacerbated by the banking colapse but MAINLY caused by an absurd unsustainable growth in public spending).
Meantime, where will you be planting the magic gold bulion tree? You haven't told us that yet.
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AC @378.
"As for calling any of my arguments 'lame' without actually countering them. That's a bit lame.
@366
"That's the thing. the right-wing live in a world of shades, whites, blacks greys, opportunities and in-betweens. In the left-wing world it is all RIGHT or wrong. and hysterical shouting in-between."
Andy, the above is not really a serious argument... it's a some random generalisations, based on what, I'm not sure.
And using ancient history to prove a point as in...
"i know that the owner of some land near me only owns it because of his ancestor stealing it from the rightful saxon owners, so that gives me the right to attack him, murder his family and replace a thriving (bread basket of the continent) economy with a wasteland which results in the death of many of the citizens of the country."... now that is a bit OTT, isn't it?
I'm happy to debate on a sensible level any time..
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385 AC
"This debate started as i was asked to give an example of black against white racism. Why does it always seem necessary for some to find an 'excuse' for it when it happens?"
Exactly. And all I was pointing out is that particular example (Zim/Bob) resulted from white expansionism into Africa. Hence the chickens now coming home to roost. Or to use another well-worn phrase, 'what goes around, comes around.'
So we agree that Bob is not a prospective Nobel Peace Prize winner and we agree that white farmers should have seen the writing on the wall before Independence??
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#390 ""i know that the owner of some land near me only owns it because of his ancestor stealing it from the rightful saxon owners, so that gives me the right to attack him, murder his family and replace a thriving (bread basket of the continent) economy with a wasteland which results in the death of many of the citizens of the country."... now that is a bit OTT, isn't it?"
i had pointed out that Mugabe's actions couldn't be defended by looking back generations. You seemed to think they could be 'explained' by doing so. I pointed out this was a fallacious argument. You think my allusion OTT? White farmers HAVE been murdered in Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe's economy was once considered the 'bread basket' of Africa but has collapsed and it's now a 'basket case'. How can you possibly claim my description is OTT? No, don't answer me, think of the answer you'd give to the relatives of those murdered and the starving Zimbabweans.
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#391 "Exactly. And all I was pointing out is that particular example (Zim/Bob) resulted from white expansionism into Africa. Hence the chickens now coming home to roost. Or to use another well-worn phrase, 'what goes around, comes around.'
So we agree that Bob is not a prospective Nobel Peace Prize winner and we agree that white farmers should have seen the writing on the wall before Independence??"
That's a good one. Nick Griffin could use that "writing on the wall" argument about the jews who stayed in Germany after Hitler came to power.
Perhaps we could round up anyone of Norwegian descent and give them a good kicking for what their viking ancestors did?
Nick Griffin might but are you seriously saying that Mugabe's actions are justified? Or that it's the white farmer's fault for not fleeing?
"what comes around goes around". Wow. Did you really think about thatbefore writing it? I'm sure Mugabe says just the same each time a white farmer is beaten, evicted or killed. It's all the justification HE needs but i would have hoped for a bit more thought from other quarters.
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#390/392 "think of the answer you'd give to the relatives of those murdered and the starving Zimbabweans"
Ah, you already have. "what comes around goes around".
One of the nastier aspects of civil wars is the 'settling of scores'. Next time one ethnic group is slaughtered by another because of what happened between them generations ago, would you advise that I just shrug and pass it off as "what comes around, goes around"?
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a @ 389
okay, I see
Close the Borders and Slash Taxes! ... is the "AndyPlan"
thanks, babe ... you take care now
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YB @ 388
surprised to hear that stuff from a really bright guy like you, Yellow
ah well
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
397#
Are you saying then that what Yellow posted was a lie?
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397
Excuse me, I meant 396.
387#
I'm sure you'll see a reason to either avoid discussing it or addressing the points.
But, I'm not standing for office. They're merely my opinions, nothing else. And as we have found out to the contrary, during the last 12 years, there is meant to be such a thing as joined up government. What one department may decide may well have an impact on another. Thats why the list is as long as it is.
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#396 sagamix
Saga, what is "that stuff" exactly?
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397#
OK mods, what was it you didnt like then? I'm damned if I'm typing that lot out again, thats half an hour of my life I'm not going to get back. I appreciate that it was long, but why is that a problem?
Will you kindly either send me an email telling me why it was moderated or restore it, if you dont mind. Remember, you're there to oversee and moderate not to censor.
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AC @several
I'm not justifying anything... or saying that retribution is right.
All I'm saying is that, as throughout history, in life, anywhere, actions have consequences. So whites expropriate black's land in Rhodesia... few decades later minority white government is kicked out, land expropriation takes place again. You brought up the Zimbabwe example of 'reverse' racism, I'm saying that it was not unexpected, not saying it's justified murder, just not a surprising consequence.
Do you think because the whites were 'doing them a favour', they should have left things as they were... like in the 'good old days'?
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#402 "actions have consequences. So whites expropriate black's land in Rhodesia... few decades later minority white government is kicked out, land expropriation takes place again. You brought up the Zimbabwe example of 'reverse' racism, I'm saying that it was not unexpected, not saying it's justified murder, just not a surprising consequence."
Odd that while you do not justify it, you do not go so far as condemning it. Mugagbe would be pleased with that.
"actions have consequences". should i be hanged because my grandfather committed a murder?
you seem easy on black v black racism, as if it is inconsequential.
let's start a new topic. been a rugby person all my life (union) and have just seen the NZ v Aus rugby game on TV (league). How on earth is soccer more popular than rugby as a spectator sport?
you want passion, power, skill, aggression, honesty in a sport. NZ 20- Aus 20 was amazing! Well done BBc
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"Do you think because the whites were 'doing them a favour', they should have left things as they were... like in the 'good old days'?"
It is a fact that there was little if any arable farming in Zimbabwe before whte settlers. White farmers introduced the idea and encouraged blacks to join in. Zimbabwe was a much more egalitarian country than South Africa. Zimbabwe introduced equal suffrage on voting in 1923.
Zimbabwe COULD have been an example of a happy combination of nations and cultures (and was for a while) but then a racist took over and apologists defended him.
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@ 403 ... been a rugby person all my life (union)
like how you added the bit in brackets, Andy ... as if we couldn't have guessed it'd be the Reactionary rather than the Clear Thinking Progressive version of the great game!
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405#
Christ knows what the CTP's would have done to the game...
Probably would have made it into a no contact sport where no one is allowed to lose, no one is allowed to be deselected in case it hurts your feelings and no points are awarded in case it results in emotional trauma on the player thinking they're in some way inferior - naturally the RFU would be sued for hurt feelings - "after all, we're all winners just by taking part and talking about our feelings afterwards!"
.. the players boots wouldnt be made of leather, because its cruel to animals and studs would obviously be outlawed...
....the goalposts would almost certainly be made more feminine in shape and less phallic..
what else... there'd be half time organic-free range fair trade tofu, meat pies strictly verboten.... and an aromatherapist in the dug out, in case anyone broke a nail catching one of those funny shaped rugby balls...
And the mind boggles at how the songs in the bar afterwards would be censored - think that reminds me of an old Spitting Image song.... ("Four and twenty virgins, came down from Inverness/And when the ball was over, they all went home again/....as virgins...")
Cant remember who the original target for the skit was, whether it was Mrs Whitehouse or Claire Short... I'm inclined to think it was Claire Short.
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hey Coats!
so I see Liverpool, without you know who, trounced Man Utd
obvious what you do if you're Benitez, isn't it?
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f @ 406
that was slightly funny Fubar (in a good way, I mean) ... the bit on the rugby, anyway
I wish you'd do more of that sort of thing and less of the reactionary politics
don't suppose you'll listen to me though
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401#
Mods, still waiting for an email about 397# as to why its been blocked.
Kindly unblock it please. Given how many times this particular blog strays off topic and how the current conversation bears no resemblance whatsoever to the original title and very little if anything gets moderated on here... 397# was a direct answer to a question from another blogger.
Either send me an email explanation or unblock it please.
Thanks
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404. AndyC555
Andy, have you had any personal experience either living/working in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe or South Africa pre independence or pre '94 in SA?
Just curious.
ps I condemn what Mugabe is doing to his people. Happy?
pps Prefer Union, League's too sanitised, also a bit one dimensional. Great to watch though, I agree.
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408#
Mate, they're only reactionary because thats how you see everything that isnt yours.
Try not to be so dogmatic mate. If you're truly progressive think about NEW, Radical, Different solutions, away from the old dogma. I'm hoping the mods unblock 397, I spent long enough typing it out.
We've all got different views about what we want to see done, what we all acknowledge needs to be done and what is nice to have, what could be done. But there are many many ways of skinning that particular feline.
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406. FS
"....the goalposts would almost certainly be made more feminine in shape and less phallic.."
Never noticed that, FS... normally just go to watch the rugby. :-)
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407. At 4:04pm on 25 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
hey Coats!
so I see Liverpool, without you know who, trounced Man Utd
obvious what you do if you're Benitez, isn't it?
===
Drop the zonal marking against set pieces?
Saga, how about an answer to my #400 please? I'm intrigued.
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aha!
Do we not see it?
rugby could be a way to unite the world?
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After the rugby, now we have "the man with the golden gun"
All such films remind me of the silliest and perhaps funniest joke ever.
It's about the film that Bruce Lee made where he had to dress up as a woman to infiltrate the bad guy's headquarters.
it was called:
"Enter with Drag On"
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407. saga
"obvious what you do if you're Benitez, isn't it?"
Shave the goatee off??
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"Andy, have you had any personal experience either living/working in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe or South Africa pre independence or pre '94 in SA?
Just curious.
ps I condemn what Mugabe is doing to his people. Happy?
pps Prefer Union, League's too sanitised, also a bit one dimensional. Great to watch though, I agree."
Have a business contact who was a Zimbabwean farmer. Spoke at length with him once about it. Felt embarressed and humiliated about what had happened to him when as someone his age all i had ever done was work in a civilised country.
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fubar @ 411
Different solutions, away from the old dogma
quite - like the whole host of innovative things I'm always putting forward - my plan for "double your benefit if you do Piano and French lessons" just for an example - floated that a couple of weeks ago, didn't I? ... and were there any takers? ... No
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hello Yellow, I mean Labour's "Masterplan" to radically alter the country's ethnicity mix in order to annoy the Tories; a nice idea (and one I'd have supported) but very far fetched in my view ... I very rarely go for conspiracy theory type stuff and this is no exception
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404. AC
"Zimbabwe was a much more egalitarian country than South Africa. Zimbabwe introduced equal suffrage on voting in 1923.
Zimbabwe COULD have been an example of a happy combination of nations and cultures (and was for a while) but then a racist took over and apologists defended him."
I have to say that some of the most strident and obnoxious racists I've ever met were white ex-Rhodesians. Not very egalitarian at all.
417.
I've also met a couple of decent farmers from there, and also a few ****s.
I'd be happy to fill you in on South Africa circa '76 from first hand experience, about friends of mine who were forced into exile over here.. and some of the ex-pats and ex-Rhodies I met when working over there in the mid nineties... but this isn't the forum for that. Also worked for a year in Nairobi btw, now that was stressful.
Safer to stick to Fubar's interest in goalposts and Stevie G's naff haircut.
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418#
Yeah, but mate, theres radical.... and then theres avante garde.
The combination of Piano and French is definately avante garde..... surrealist even.
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Think i mentioned that Rodesiaa/Zimbabwe was different from South Africa?
Be a bit like someone saying Germany and britain had a similar record on jewish tollerance.
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bg @ 420
Safer to stick to Stevie G's naff haircut
it is a bit, isn't it?
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419. At 5:20pm on 25 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
hello Yellow, I mean Labour's "Masterplan" to radically alter the country's ethnicity mix in order to annoy the Tories; a nice idea (and one I'd have supported) but very far fetched in my view ... I very rarely go for conspiracy theory type stuff and this is no exception
===
The man who was at the heart of it, who worked for Jack Straw (Home Secretary at the time), and who was a speech writer for Tony Blair, Andrew Neather, makes the claim:
"Mr Neather said there was a 'driving political purpose' behind Labour's decision to allow in hundreds of thousands of migrants to plug gaps in the labour market.
He said the stance was foreshadowed by a report by Mr Blair's Performance and Innovation Unit (PIU) think-tank, which said the nation would benefit from more migrants.
Mr Neather claimed that earlier, unpublished versions of the report made clear that one aim was to make Britain more multi-cultural for political reasons.
'I remember coming away from some discussions with the clear sense that the policy was intended - even if this wasn't its main purpose - to rub the Right's nose in diversity and render their arguments out of date,' he said."
Believe it or believe it not, but this sort of thing is grist to the mill for the BNP.
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422. AC
"Think i mentioned that Rodesiaa/Zimbabwe was different from South Africa?"
Yes, I remember, Ian Smith had a nicer form of racial discrimination than the South African apartheid government.
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yellow @ 424
The man who was at the heart of it, who worked for Jack Straw (Home Secretary at the time), and who was a speech writer for Tony Blair, Andrew Neather, makes the claim
needs to get his name in the papers, probably
Believe it or believe it not, but this sort of thing is grist to the mill for the BNP
exactly ... another reason not to take it seriously
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424#
Yellow
They dont like it up 'em. Reading the full article, its pretty explosive stuff. Given the amount of people from cross party backgrounds who are in that article saying that its bad and that its true, it'll be interesting to see if anything happens as a result of it, whether it gets brought up in PMQ's or whether anybody holds the party's feet to the flames. No wonder Jack Straw was squirming the other night.
Ho hum. Chances are nothing'll happen.
Should be an interesting week with the Kelly report due out as well. Apparently he's already been told that its the wrong shade of whitewash and needs toning down because its too incendary.
So, are any of the leaders going to have the cojones to endorse it in full, I wonder...? We'll see just how much they really believe in reform....
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#426 sagamix
Whatever his motives, possibly just a concerned citizen (!), does not make it untrue.
Mere sophistry from you, I'm afraid.
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428#
To quote some of Guido's contributors:
"Deliberately and wilfully lying to their core constituents about a plan to eradicate the traditional culture of this country to replace it with a patchwork of cultures thus engineering ethnocide, and labelling their opponents racists for pointing out the lies, is NOT a scandal?"
"Toss in a soupcon or umpteen of ingredients like world champ surveillance, unequal application of the law, 30,000 extra Tasers for the police, etc; and, above all, keep the lid on the roiling pot.
Silly USSR, bankrupting itself with all those fancy nukes. All it had to do was wait for the Jack Jones’ foreign legion to burrow deep enough."
Everyone else in the MSM (including SkyNews and ITV) is running with it, all apart from the BBC. Funny how this should all blow up two days after Griffin's slot on QT....
Quelle Surprise.... Not only could it hand a stupendous shot in the arm to Griffin, once he gets hold of it, but could also present serious problems for Cameron unless he grows a pair and tackles it head on.
Being a mongrel nation is one thing. This is something different entirely.
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@407 Saga
- quite, always assuming Benitez is still around -always start to wonder when players go missing when a club is in crisis. Never been a love match really Benitez and Gerrard?
Had a serious disinfection job on the computer today - so I am only just up and running again. Does not look as if the discussion has moved on but it would have been an improvement on watching bars moving across the computer screen.
Pesky thinks viruses.
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fubar @ 429
a plan to eradicate the traditional culture of this country to replace it with a patchwork of cultures thus engineering ethnocide
so you're so impressed by the above (from Guido) that you want to copy it here
and you say Cameron needs to "grow a pair" and tackle "It" head on
think I know you better now
well well
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431#
I have to admit to being somewhat surprised that this accusation hasnt been followed up on, unless its been unearthed as a spoof or a false flag. As a wet left-leaner/"CTP" you would never have seen any problem with what it accuses, even if it is true, would you?
Personally, given the depths that have been plumbed politically over the last 12 years, nothing would surprise me any more, if it were true and verifiable. If that is the case and even this is not enough to pull the mainstream media and the BBC off the lobby teat, then truly I despair for what will become of the country in which I was born.
I dont think even JFK and RFK were ever this mendacious and look what happened to them....
If this is genuine, if I were Cameron, I'd be climbing the walls with anger. Or, if I were Griffin, I'd be cheering from the rooftops. If its true, you're talking about handing millions of votes straight into Griffin's lap.
SO that leaves me three things to consider. One its a spoof or a false flag. Two, its genuine and no-one gives a monkeys. Three, its genuine and the MSM are complicit in sitting on it.
Have to wait and see, I guess. As it stands at the moment, I'm surprised by the deafening silence.
I think Cam needs to grow a pair anyway. Until he does, he's not going to get my vote.
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fubar @ 432
I think Cam needs to grow a pair anyway. Until he does, he's not going to get my vote
No; because you're waiting for a "strong, charismatic new leader" aren't you? ... you've said so enough times
and is it true? (you ask) a Lefty Establishment Masterplan to commit "Ethnicide" on the White British?
Of course not!
it's foamy mouth, soft head, racist propaganda of the type one expects only from the most rabid/extreme right wing fanatics - we shouldn't ... mustn't ... give it house room
I hope that's clear enough for you
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433#
Pardon me if I take your political advice with a bucket of salt mate.
Thats one of the reasons there hasnt been a reasoned adult debate on the subject of immigration for the last twelve years - the hysterical chestbeating, rent-a-mob accusations of racism whenever the subject is approached.
I'll make my own mind up thank you.
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fs @ 434
a reasoned adult debate
it gets funnier
if your idea of a reasoned "Adult" debate about Immigration is to frame it in the context of a sinister lefty masterplan to carry out ethnicide (!) on the indigenous White British, then I simply dread to imagine what you think a Juvenile debate would sound like
except it isn't of course (funny)
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433#
See Andrew's blog. I've found the source document.
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okay, thank you ... I'll take a look
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@436 & @437
Sometimes the thrill of the chase gets in the way of the debate.
I don't believe there is that much difference between you on immigration or the racism issue - the more you defend your positions the further apart you get.
The sermon is now over...
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c @ 438
Kofi Annan rides again!
... and I do hope you're right
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438.
There may be a job vacancy in the Middle East soon...
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BG@440
...I've always preferred Europe.
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441.
More gravy with those brussel sprouts?
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@439
- well Wish You were Here was great but its Echoes that rocks my boat
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btw Saga did you ever get a chance to listen to that Amadou & Mariam track
I recommended?
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Looks like everyone's staying clear of commenting on Rageh Omar's Race & Intelligence doccie last night... any takers?
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no didn't see that, what was the angle?
Gilmour @ 82 you say? - seems rather low - where's Hank Marvin?
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Hank Marvin... in formalin I think.
The angle was exploring the myth that intelligence can be pre-determined by race. Looked at validity of IQ tests and the importance of social background/upbringing on academic performance. Interesting doc.
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ah that Myth, yes - yet to be floated on the boards but give it time!
and sorry no, haven't checked out your recommended track yet - working my way through Hall and Oates and it's not leaving much time for anything else
"Rich Girl" ... a great song and a full decade plus ahead of Pulp's "Common People" ... H and O rule!
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H&O? Can't be doin' wid dat white man's soul..
Overlooked in my collection, may have to revisit them.
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FS is trying to claim Gilmour as the #1 axeman.
I'm going to have to play my ace in the hole.
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@448
I have one H & O in my collection and d'y know it is memorable because I cannot remember a single track off it.
Obviously made a big impression!
Came just after my Clapton phase but before Kylie.
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It's gone a bit quiet in the media...
any ideas for a new conspiracy theory?
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Came just after my Clapton phase but before Kylie
before your middle aged crisis, you mean?
any ideas for a new conspiracy theory?
yes I have one! ... all CCTV surveillance tapes in the whole of the country are sent to Peter Mandelson who watches them at home each evening as he lazily sips a decaf latte - he makes detailed notes whenever he sees someone doing something a bit reactionary (like smoking a cigar or wearing red braces) and the next morning he passes them ... his notes ... to the security services for "follow up"
bet that'd get plenty of takers
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@453
...I should be so lucky!
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....Lucky lucky lucky
(put Fubar's Gilmour in the shade...)
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c @ 454
I once flew to New York with her ... she was absolutely tiny! ... like a little miniature, almost
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456.
Did she have a booster seat?
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@456
Then the luck was all yours ...but you have wetted my curiosity when you say with is that in the same party or just on the same plane??
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@ 457
I couldn't tell from where I was ... she was in First and I very much wasn't!
when I say I flew with her, I didn't mean ...
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Well at least the race issue has died down a bit - that all left a nasty stench.
Interesting to see what reception Smith will get tonight - expenses are bound to be raised at some point. I wonder if this is part of her penance or whether she still does not realise how her actions seem to the rest of us.
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QT probably won't reach John o'Groats so Llandudno was the next best thing.
Wonder if any have made the trip from Redditch...
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I don't know why she's on really; just a Has Been now, isn't she?
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@462
I most certainly hope so - the lady was no respecter of civil liberties
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c @ 463 ... no, seems a while since we had a "liberal" type as Home Secretary, doesn't it? the job where you really WANT one of those doing it - but anyway, guess the big news is we can all relax a bit because "The Flash" (as Angela Merkel so aptly describes him) is not looking likely to become Mr President
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I sincerely hope you are right on that front.
Taking a detached view he would have had some of the necessary qualities - high profile, communication abilities, good connections etc but my absolute loathing of the man cannot get me past this point.
The Blair story could have taken such a different turn - once the world stage beckoned vanity kicked in and his opportunity to fundamentally change the UK for the better was lost - his fundamental fear of old labour just turned NuLab into PseudoTories. Our long awaited meritocracy turned into pernicious cronyism every bit as rotten as the old patronage.
I wonder if Cameron with his innate sense of superiority/arrogance will feel the same need to seek plaudits - I wait the Cameron experiment with some interest and just hope he is not Blair mk 2
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I agree with almost every word of that (on Blair) - you need a strong ego, of course, to get to the top in politics but his took on monstrous proportions after a while - the success of his rebranding of Labour (to make them electable again) was incredible and one has to recognise the awesome drive and political skills it took to do that - as I said on the other blog a couple of days ago, 1st May 1997 was thrilling and I can forgive him a lot for that - trouble is, the "project" worked too well - the communication machine they put together to help them win power mutated slowly into the sterile and fascist spin of today - and, as you say, they got so fixated with pleasing the people who'd come over in 97 ... Middle England to use a lazy stereotype ... that they ended up not delivering on the things that you expect a Labour government to deliver on - Brown, funnily enough, was the guy who tried to deliver on some of this during his years as Chancellor - but too often in a back door "let's pretend we're not doing it" kind of way - but he, of course, was plagued by other flaws - just as big as Blair's but different - the ones we've all discussed ad infinitum - being in thrall to the City is the one I'd pick out as the most damaging (and boy is he paying for that now!) - that and his propensity for complexity over clarity (although you can tie that "fault" back to the perceived need to hide anything redistributive from the Daily Mailies) - time for a change really, isn't it? yeah 'fraid so - so hello Mr Cameron - Blair Mark 2? - hate to say it but absolutely everything I've seen and heard from him says YES - ah well
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Did you catch Elfyn Llwyd on last night's QT saying he thinks 3 to 4 MPs will go to jail for flipping?
As an ex-Solicitor and Member of the Committee for HoC reform he must speak with some authority... he obviously wouldn't name names.
I wonder if the ex-Defence and Transport Secretary is one of those he was referring to... you never hear of him or see him these days. Only Stevie G's IQ has a lower profile.
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yes; and I think it would perhaps not be such a terrible thing if a few DO see the inside of a cell for a short period ... might act to "lance the boil" if you know what I mean
wonder what SG's view on all of this is - be interesting to find out - maybe next time he's interviewed?
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@466
I always had a sneaky admiration for the machinery of the NuLab experiment - I could almost admire the consumate performer whilst hating everything he stood for. Their ability to control and manage was awesome and even now Mandelson is the only one that comes across as vaguely capable of handling himself.
What is depressing is that the opposition has as many clones as NuLab - their whole machinery is based around the Cam/Osborne/Hague axis with no obvious talent as back up.
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BG
That is almost an insult to Stevie G - must admit the brummie accent does not help Ainsworth
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coats
Buff...not Bob!
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DOH!!!
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I find myself less than angry about the CGT aspects of 'flipping'. After all, any regular member of the public with two homes can elect which is their main home for CGT purposes. And the payments received could only be used for interest and not capital paymens. What is far worse in my view is where the payments were used for 'doing up' a property and then the property is flipped and the 'new' main home also benefits from £20k of improvements. Now that IS cynical manipulation.
I'm also less than angry about MPs employing family members provided the same tests are applied as would be by HMRC to us ordinary folk. The simple test is would they pay the same amount of money for the same work if the person was NOT a family member? If they would, what's the problem?
But the area which still doesn't seem to have been looked at with enough criticsm is the 'wholly exclusively and necessarily' aspect. How in god's name could it be argued that in order to carry out his duties as an MP, it was necessary that John Prescott had mock tudor beams added to his house? Just one example of many, many.
I wonder if any MPs will spend time inside? The other day in the Times, I read that a man doing 166 mph had been sent to jail for 9 months. this was on a remote Scottish road and, while there was potential for harm (mainly to himself as he was on a motorbike) actually no damage was done. On the opposite page a story about a woman who had fraudulently claimed over £50,000 in benefits by lying about her children having disabilities. The judge decided that sending her to prison would be a waste of money and they weren't going to ask her to pay it back because she had no money. That's £50,000 of your and my money she stole.
So what's the lesson? Drive slowly and steal from the Government?
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Andy@473
" the wholly exclusively and necessarily aspect" is the key to this and I don't know that we can agree on a foolproof structure for this.
I am coming round to favour better paid but fewer MP's, constituency offices run by the parties not the MP's with the constituency responsible for providing overnight accomodation, support staff [ even relatives if they are qualified and paid the commensurate rate] - in short keeping the MP's well away from the till.
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I'd go as follows:
400 MPs
175k base (more for ministerial/cabinet etc)
but only 150k for a London MP
fund everything from salary; no expense claims except for foreign trips and the like
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It is easy to treat them as lepers but some of them have given up well paid careers [Alan Duncan springs to mind - intensely irritating but never bland!]
You can argue the figures but I broadly agree.
My only gripe is that we may get even more career politicians rather than public servants we need.
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yes; it's tempting to say something like you have to be at least 25 and have done a "proper job" for, say, at least 3 years but I suppose it's next to impossible to frame that sort of rule
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- yup, especially as all parties seem intent on foisting airbrushed candidates on all available seats.
Where are the free thinkers going to come from - the ones who drive you up the wall but enrich parliament through their sheer cussedness?
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Doctor Rhodes Boyson, remember that crazy cat?
Dickensian I think is the word
sideburns to die for
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Now if you are talking whiskers Sir Gerald Nabarro definitely qualifies
- I vaguely remember some court case about driving but I will never forget his whiskers!
Talking of mistaken identity - I once complimented someone on their girlfriend after I had seen them driving around and got very blank looks from this chap - apparently he let his afghan hound sit in the front with him and I mistook the back of the dog's head for a fetching blonde.
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c @ 480
lol ... that's called seeing what you want to see instead of what's really there
very common
like us with Tony in 97