Green shoots
Oh dear.
Do you remember one of the most notorious quotes of the last recession? The claim in 1991 by the former Chancellor, Norman Lamont, that he was seeing "the green shoots of economic spring".
Well, the woman who is Gordon Brown's most important economic adviser and the Business minister has just repeated it.
Baroness Vadera said today that "I am seeing a few green shoots". She was asked on ITV's Lunchtime News whether she saw "green shoots" and being the consummate "backroom girl" that she is and not a frontline politician she did not spot the trap.
Her reply was: "It's a very uncertain world right now globally... I wouldn't want to be the one predicting it. I am seeing a few green shoots but it's a little bit too early to say exactly how they'd grow."
What on earth could she have meant by green shoots on a day Barclays has announced 2,000 redundancies?
I'm told that she was referring to the fact that the bond market had begun to open up for bigger borrowers and also to the good news from retailers like Morrisons and Tesco's who this week promised to create thousands more jobs.
That is unlikely to reduce the smile on the faces of some Tories who will claim that it proves how out of touch Team Brown are.
It is, of course, a double edged sword for the Conservatives since it could remind people about the last recession.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~49~RS~)
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I don't think what she said was nearly as bad as it's being made out to be. Looks to me like a general remark about the world economy in answer to a very non-specific question.
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It's true then more than 7 cups of coffee a day makes you helucinate.
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Well look at the effect on every small business with a loan tracked to BOE....we are all breathing a heck of a lot easier.
And the property market is starting to shift as the bargain hunters realise now is the time to get in.
The turn always comes later than you want, but always before you know it.
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And are pink elephants nibbling the green shoots?
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Coming from the woman who privatised Railtrack and then seemlessly watched it go into adminstration, I think we can safely put this remark into the dustbin of life.
She couldn't manage a paper round, never mind the economy.
Call an election.
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More hype and mantra, courtesy of Lord Mandleson, no doubt.
Come on, Nick. Stop molly-coddling the government and start asking the pertinent questions....!!
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Here comes the election
Mr Brown has to think that an early election means smallish majority for Tories - which labour can fight after 5 painful recession years.
If he waits for a year - and recession really bites will 2 million newly unemployed vote for labour or Tories....
If he waits could be landslide - 100 seat majority - which labour wont overturn in 5 or even 10 or even 15 years ???
its last thing on his mind - so he cant be caught dithering over it again.
Tories need to point out who did nothing
a) about gold reserves
b) independant bank of england
c) FSA rules
New Labour spends more time talking about what its opponents are doing, and less time on what its doing after 11 years in power
:)
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No problem, she just failed to understand her LTT briefing.
Or she just got caught up in the mantra of always finding something good to say regardless of the real situation
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From Wiki answers:
Spring is sprung
Da grass is riz
I wonder where dem boidies iz
Da little boids is on da wing
Ain't dat absoid
Da little wings is on da boid
But it's not by e e cummings, or by Ogden Nash, another to whom it is frequently attributed. It's actually by that well known poet 'Anonymous'.
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This incident just confirms my view that our political elite (ha!) are away with the fairies. Moreover, they think they can treat us ordinary folk either with contempt or as possessing the intelligence of gnats.
One wonders if "Gordon Brown's most important economic adviser and the Business minister ..." has had a look at the Baltic Dry Index recently (http://tinyurl.com/79pnfp )?
With each passing day I despair a little more at the rank incompetence of the idiots who are supposed to be running this country right now. I despair even more at the complete lack of any political alternative. What on earth has gone wrong with our politicians and political system over the past decade?
Oh boy, this is going to be so bad for the UK if we have fools like this woman working up on the bridge.
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"Well, the woman who is Gordon Brown's most important economic adviser and the Business minister has just repeated it"
This sort of explains why the country is in such a mess -- if a person of this naivety and business depth -- is Brown's most important adviser -- heaven help the UK.
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I doubt thoughts of preivous recessions will change anyones mind on anything.
Some die back is part of a healthy economy - there will be uncompetative deadwood and it has to go to make way for new healthy growth.
However this time people know that gordon prevented the proper cycle from occuring (for his own reasons), and now that the die back is occuring it is destroying otherwise healthy businesses too.
We came out of previous recessions stronger - this one will leave us massivley weakened.
I don't think much will be made of this girls remarks - there is plenty of red-labour-meat for the tories to feast on, without this kind of frippary.
I would have hoped that you would have had something a bit more meaty to write about too...
Mandleson? Oleg? Yachts? Mortgages?
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"green shoots" - yes, there will be winners in the uk depression; I'm sure bailiffs are doing quite well at the moment.
Not really much wonder that some supermarkets are doing well; people have to eat; supermarket food is cheap as are their non-food goods.
In fact, with companies like jcb in trouble but food retailers just about surviving, that's a perfect illustration of what happens during a major national economic depression.
There's much worse to come; it'll only get worse with labour in charge; they're scorching the earth with every step they take.
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What fun you hacks have tripping up these wet behind the ears Ministers. Such larks. So funny. Job done then. Sorry if I can't share the hilarity - too busy worrying if I and members of my family will still have jobs by the end of the week. Perhaps I could do yours - seems pretty easy money for flap all input.
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"It is, of course, a double edged sword for the Conservatives since it could remind people about the last recession."
And if it doesn't the BBC will help them out, eh, Nick?
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This does seem premature but interesting - how are we to improve consumer confidence? What has been done so far has not impacted this.
The only way is via the media and the unnecessary reporting of everything that is bad. The media continue to report daily how bad things are rather than some of the positives
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Green shoots, how can she tell what colour they are through rose tinted glasses?!
Funny thing Nick, I cant help noticing the astonishing increase in your 'blog rate' when Labour need positive spin after a gaffe such as this
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In a recession, the ones who got out, the ones who never ventured, the ones who warned us......they have their day saying "We told you so!",and they are annoyingly right. And in a recession the government gets blamed. And that is half-right.
But you might as well blame the world for turning.There is a cyclicality that cannot be planned out .
What Gordon did was make it that the boomtime lasted a longtime.
There is sufficient wealth now in this country, for it to bounce back and regrow.
Yes we need to try and save more, pay off our mortgages, plan for our retirement....but we need the adventurers, the reckless, the feckless,the girls who blow a grand on their handbags, the boys in their Jags.....we need them every bit as much as we need the pensioners in their bungalows, recycling their teabags, to get our economy back on track.
And it looks like people are getting a bit bored of the crunch already.
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Oh, whoops! Perhaps she misheard the question and thought she was being asked if she'd seen any green shoes.
Just out of curiosity, and not being a political anorak, who is she exactly and what qualifies her as a'Business Minister'? And if she is GB's 'most important economic advisor' - he seriously needs to get some training on recruitment.
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Why would the conservatives worry about people remembering the last recession?
Everyone knows it started in America and wasn't the fault of the government that had been managing the economy for some time......
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Another non-story really but if you give it out you must be prepared to take it. Labour banged on about the non-story of the Tory minister saying that a recession could be good (healthwise). This is just vacuous sniping egged on by the media. Move on....
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Nick Clegg's approach seems to have been completed ignored and unless I'm missing something gives me real cause for concern.
The government can only apply pressure to those banks in which they have a stake. If they have to make loans at less competitive rates than other banks are we not just compounding the problem and so rather than getting the banks back on a sensible footing which has to be the medium term goal we are landing ourselves with an ever larger bill to keep them afloat. Shades of British Leyland?
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This lady is paid goodness knows how much a year and she doesn't know the difference between the dying throes of a plant and green shoots?
I think I've heard it all now. Who let her escape from the bunker?
Someone said she was a business advisor to Gordon Brown?
Well that just has to tell you everything.
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Nick,
who exactly voted for this person to work as a minister.TAG.
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It is, of course, a double edged sword for the Conservatives since it could remind people about the last recession.
Nick, don't see that it will. Even someone past his prime like me didn't make that connection.
No the only way such a link would be made is if the media spun the line ...
Oops, silly me
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onward-ho wrote:
And the property market is starting to shift as the bargain hunters realise now is the time to get in.
The turn always comes later than you want, but always before you know it.
Is that the official Labour party line? Because everyone who is actually in the property trade says that house prices are likely to continue to fall.
Bargain hunters will probably wait a few months in the hope of saving themselves even more.
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Nick,
is this the person who gave Gordon the figures with regard to the VAT saving. Remember 52 times 5 is what, yes 260. Just listen to what the PM says on PMQs, ask him about his maths, now Gordon what is 52 times 5.
You really cannot make it up, also thought that Phil Woolass was brilliant, what are you smiling at Lord Tebbit, that as he was talking about the politics of the economic situation, what would the Tories do?TAG.
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On one hand this is an absolutely nothing story, on the other, however, it shows that the Tories haven't got much to say. If you look at what context her reply was made in I think you'll agree that her statement was well qualified.
To put her answer another way: The world economy is volatile and I wouldn't want to predict anything. However, there are a few beakons of light out there but I wouldn't want to predict what impact that will have on the bigger picture.
I don't think there is much wrong with saying that.
Go back to sleep Tories.
Next story, please.
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Who cares if she said green shoots it’s so irrelevant not worthy of a blog post!
What is more relevant it the nonsense shown on the news about small businesses requiring loans to keep trading.
ANY business which relies on borrowed money to keep going is a JOKE Business!
If a business is so reliant on borrowings and has no money set aside for bad times then they shouldn’t be in business.
IS THIS JUST A LOAD OF OLD TOSH?
It’s a shake OUT !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Businesses will die if they survive they will benefit from the ones who have gone.
I am SICK and TIRED of the Naïve nature of so called Business reporting
It wouldn’t be too bad but it is causing HURT and PAIN for many more than need be.
Blasted
Amateur Government
Amateur Businessmen
Amateur Journalists
JOKERS the LOT of YOU!!!!
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Where were the frontline polliticians who should hvae dealt with this line of questioning? Typically Labour...poorly conceived, poorly executed and poorly timed.
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I wish the conservatives would keep quiet for 6 months instead of talking down the economy.
I run my own company and have never been busier.
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Um, just one thing:
"I'm told that she was referring to the fact that the bond market had begun to open up for bigger borrowers and also to the good news from retailers like Morrisons and Tesco's who this week promised to create thousands more jobs"
Who told you? Under what circumstances?
Did you contact them? Did they contact you??
Please tell.
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More LIKE GREEN journalism
Amateurs the lot of you.
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In another 12 months her words will come back to haunt her. In my opinion she hasn't a clue what she is talking about
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To understand the arrogance of this woman ( although God only knows why) you only have to look at the quote from her which she made via e mail during the Railtrack saga about the small shareholders being 'grannies losing their blouses'.
Indeed, if my memory serves me correctly, the only reason this quote saw the light of day was the legal action by the shareholders
This is the real contempt that the Labour Government hold for the electorate
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Well done to Baroness Vadera. Someone seeing the positive aspects of our economy and not afraid to work against the general trend of the media. The media is always looking for the next big doom and gloom headline.
But watch out - the tide of public opinion about the media coverage is turning. Today I spoke to at least eight different people, employed and unemployed, and all of them said they are getting fed up with the media's constant attention to the current poor economic climate. They are not reading newspapers. They are turning off the news on the TV and the Radio. Enough is enough. Baroness Vadera, well done. It is time to put the 18 month global credit crisis behind us and to work on positive measures for the future.
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On another forum, I have commented on many people's inability to read what is on the page. Now the problem is that people, including you Nick, are incapable of listening to what is actually being said. Any gardener knows that buds begin forming on some plants even while other parts of the plant are still falling. She was not saying that these shoots will actually develop.
What she said is perfectly true. The fact that journalists and others want to make it into a bigger story than it is, shows that the spin culture is not solely found in government. How this helps anyone except journalists wanting to prove their worth and others seeking to raise their blood pressure while writing self satisfied comments is beyond me. Perhaps politics is a game and the economy is just one of the means of playing it.
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Maybe she has seen the trend in TED Spread, LIBOR v. UK Base and some of the research coming out of the US (http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/2785).
Clearly the real economy lags month behind 'green shoots', and further 'green shoots' in the US take time to have an impact on the UK, but it's not ALL gloom from an economic point of view.
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The last recession, Nick, was at a time where the economy had been substantially remodelled and was the necessary precursor to the massive growth we then experienced, whose green shoots were already bearing fruit when this lousy Labour charade began under the great, Bush-medal-winning-champion- of-world-peace Tony Blair, only to be driven into the ground through reckless deregulation and greed.
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Of course- stupid me!- it's all the press talking up the recession. So what about the constant stream of job losses every day??
This is not spin these are cold hard facts - each one which is a nail in the coffin of this 'achieve nothing' Government
The sooner we have an election the better
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#31 alalchan
I wish the conservatives would keep quiet for 6 months instead of talking down the economy.
I run my own company and have never been busier.
Receiver?
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Alan Duncan has just advertised his own unsuitability for addressing the difficulties of the recession we are facing, by describing it as " Gordon Brown's recession". Presumably the recession in USA, Iceland, Germany, Japan, et al, et al , can also be blamed on the Prime Minister. I think not. What a fool Duncan is !
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alalchan wrote:
I wish the conservatives would keep quiet for 6 months instead of talking down the economy.
I run my own company and have never been busier.
Let me guess you are self employed and paid good money to post articles on websites about how great New Labour are?
It is one of the few growing industries in this country at the moment!
You must be the 3rd or 4th Labour supporting business man to suddenly appear this week!
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None story. Move away. Nothing to see here.
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Our small business is taking lots of orders right now, particularly from Europe. We had a brilliant December as well in UK sales as soon as the VAT reduction came in.
Her remarks were suitably cautious, in my view, and not at all insensitive. It is time someone started talking things up a bit.
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#28
Forget government propoganda, Capital Economics, who have told the truth about the shockingly large level of personal indebtedness in this country, are now saying all th esigns are pointing to a sharp lurch down in the UK economy.
Brown, Vadera, Darling and the other dummies wil have access to this information which is why the PM looked like a man heading for treatment by the crash team today at PMQs.
None of them can believe the complete car crash that is the economic wreck they have bequeathed us.
They will be lucky if they make it through the next twelve months with their health in tact after all the lies and damn lies they have told us about public sector pensions, collapsing tax revenues, ballooning deficits, hidden off balance sheet commitments adnt eh rest.
The Bank of England balance sheet has already more than doubled in three months absorbing all the toxic waste they have created.
The public want to know the true extent of the mess that newlabour have made of their boom built on credit.
Thye don't want anymore lies about greenshoots and best placed economy and being on their side.
Call an election.
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only nick robinson could say this labour woman's quote would remind people of a tory recession 17 yeors ago . what planet is he on ? What about some balanced reporting and less ( its got to be said ) Labour bias
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No Nick
I have just watched Peston squirming to find a way to draw the sting on this as you are.
Were they poison ivy shoots
Maddy
Yacht?
Aluminium Tariff's?
House income / mortgage discrepency?
PBR debt calculations from cloud cuckoo land?
Could you please be as fast to react on these?
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Election, please.
(Why are none of these business ministers, very powerful people during the economic crisis, directly or even indirectly elected?)
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#42 Ned- even before the Credit crunch the consensus was that Brown would have to either cut back on spending or increase taxes in order to meet his fiscal rules and not go above 40% of GDP. Brown never put any money away in the good times to act as a cushion in the bad- but then as he said- 'no more boom and bust'.
I particularly liked the fact then when he would trumpet ' growth for x amount of consecutive quarters' he never mentioned those that were under the tory regime
I used to think he was arrogant- now I am convinced he is just stupid
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I am finding an increasing trend and I assume it is among labour supporters to play down the recession.
Ignorance is bliss is it not?
Well you can be ignorant if you like but I prefer the old saying that knowledge is power.
Is this the new spin we are getting from labour? That everyone is sick and tired of hearing about the recession?
On your bikes! As Norman would say.
Everything is deteriorating at such a pace just a snippet of information could be enough for you be able to make a fast decision that could save yourself.
Of course labour want us all to remain in ignorance but this is the time of the internet so they can never again get away with what they did in the past.
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#45
Doctor Disraeli- perhaps you could explain what it is you sell that made the orders roll in after a 2.5% VAT cut as lesser retailers ( minor ones like M&S) Say it made not a shred of difference?
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@ TAG (nr 27),
can you fill me in on the 52 x 5 thing. I miss the clue and am intrigued - thanks
@ Mark_WE (nr26)
agree, property market recovery will be when a similar property sold a few months later will be sold at the same or, better, higher price. Something that will not go unnoticed but will certainly be noticed.
@ canttakeanymore (nr36)
given Railtrack, the whole economy will soon be nationalised perhaps, with the debt called the national asset paying us benefits in a low-inflation environment rather than requiring high taxes or high inflation to reduce the debt to GDP ratio.
@ everyone still thinking the BBC is committed to reporting with the least possible bias:
wake up, every time a Labour politician slips, an affair long time ago involving the conervatives will be dug out of the archives with Campbell and Mandy giving the helping hand. This strategy will soon run into an unfixable problem though: this recession will be far deeper and longer than the 1990s one. The UK went into this one with consumers dissaving, companies gearing up, the UK being a net importer of goods and Brown running a budget deficit when the economy was still sort of OK. But of course that is all the fault of the US and banks unwilling to lend (please note Mr Robinson that bank lending volumes at the end of 2008 were higher than in 2007, according to the BBC - perhaps the reporting of this fact represents a green shoot of BBC unbiasedness?)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7827273.stm
quote:
The British Bankers Association, which represents the banks, said its latest data showed that in October and November, growth in lending to small businesses slowed towards the end of 2008, though it remained above 2007 levels.
Mr Robinson, is it sensible for banks to be forced to lend given that corporate failures in 2008 were 18% higher than in 2007? Guess you say yes. (The % was mentioned in the same BBC report.)
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#5, RobinJD, I have to agree with you.
This woman is one of a growing number of even more unaccountable ministers tucked away in the Lords for obvious reasons - they haven't a clue.
An election is long overdue and I say that as a non-Tory.
As for Nick's comment that this may remind us of the last recession..... no, it doesn't. This recession is going to be far deeper and we also have an impending energy crisis to look forward to (by 2015 will be dependent upon imports for 80% of our gas and have only 14 days back-up storage for one).
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This is a complete non-story. OK she didn't choose her words quite as carefully as she might have. So what? For the BBC to give so much publicity to the story encourages the juvenile behaviour of Westminster politicians who seize on supposed "gaffes" of their opponents instead of having serious discussions of policy. And as gaffes go, this one is incredibly minor: the phrase "green shoots" was suggested to Baroness Vadera and she didn't agree to it without hedging it around with qualifications. This is completely different from Norman Lamont, who came up with the phrase for himself and stated it confidently.
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Please can we have some GERMAN or FRENCH Journalists doing this they are so much more professional than this load of amateurism.
Hyping the minutiae rather that reporting FACTS!
BBC NEWS
Basically Bxllocks Created News service.
You lot are like a BROKEN record you go on and on.
Amateurs THE LOT OF YOU!
Watch the FRENCH and GERMAN news channels and see how it should be done.
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Labour have no idea what is happening or what to do about it.
If they keep saying "things are no the up" then eventually they will be right.
But it won't be any good reflection on them.
We need a new governenment - this one has no-ones confidence, and never will again.
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Guess the follow-up question to Baroness Vadera should be whether the US have generated the green shoots since they supposedly have caused the recession (apologies Mandy, downturn).
Indeed it were the US who forced Brown and Baroness Vadera to:
-run a budget deficit when the economy was growing above trend;
-let UK banks become weaker capitalised than both their US and European peers by the end of 2006;
-push doves onto the monetary policy committee of the Bank of England through influencing the appointment process in order for the BoE to run with low interest rates when the housing market was booming and consumers were hooked on debt;
-condone banks selling >100% mortgages;
-change the divi treatment for pension funds, contributing to funding problems of schemes which in turn is an important explanation for the underinvestment by businesses in the UK;
-pay out billions of tax credits wrongly.
Indeed, as The Economist wrote last week, one element of the government's strategy to deal with the current situation is to deny all blame. Unfortunately, the BBC let the government get away with it.
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You can see the panic in ZaNuLabour the repid rebutall unit is out in force.
It show just how damaging they see 'Green Shoots' will be.
They have all turned into sucessful business men who are finding rising orders and traveling the world due to Gordon timely actions.
PATHETIC.
Why are you so frightened of the truth?
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This is yet another Westminster Village story of no consequence to people in the real world. To see Nick Robinson shiny little excited face on the news telling us what devastating news this entirely moderate, fully explained, comment was for the Government merely reminds us of the circles in which he used to, and some would say still does, move. I see they even allowed George Osborne out again so maybe they think people have forgotten his Russian yacht escapade.
The next item on the news after this rubbish was that over 1000 people have died in Gaza and Israel. How that takes second place to all of the above tells us everything we need to know about editorial standards at the BBC.
Get a life Nick.
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Seems THIS BARONESS SHOULD FALL
ON HER SWORD : RESIGN!
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People can bury their heads in the sand as much as they like. The polls show that many are not yet touched by the Recession and are still optimistic about the situation. Avoiding the media won't do anything to improve their prospects and at some point they are going to be personaly affected by it.
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Once the quantitative easing kicks-in, wait for the Labour apologists to tell us that nothing has happened to "the pound in your pocket".
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Great Post Virtualsilverlady!
Agree with all your comments - also add that GB's reference to DC's Tories as the "do-nothing party" a Mandlesome engineered anti-Tory (hoping to resonate jibe) slogan can be buried now "green shoots" has so many headline catching avenues....dear oh dear GB - you've been busted! This story will get people talking in the cafe's, workplace, gym etc etc - people are not stupid..come judgement day!
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Mr Robinson, can you get Mr Peston or yourself to report on something that The Guardian, most likely tipped by AC + the newly Lord, just blogged on: forgiving debt.
A few leaked comments on this one will come in handy for investors.
My final point tonight re biased reporting: have you noticed the German plans to legally limit the budget deficit to 0.5% of GDP in ordinary times (compared to Brown's deficit of almost 3% in 06/07) and set up a redemption fund to repay government debt as quickly as possible.
Start writing your blog for the day gilts sell off now!
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I suspect the Golem probably sings "Non, je ne regrette rien" in the bath - he never takes the blame for anything and will have no regrets about impoverishing the nation in an attempt to save his political skin.
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Baroness Vadera said much which was of interest IE the British Banks were lending.
I can agree with that.
Is she expected to know about Norman Lamont's Gaff?
Pathetic Gutter Journalism is this what we are to expect from the BBC?
I pay my licence fee to get the news NOT this rubbish!
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@ the1beard (56)
Agree, though Germany's ZDF (Zweites Deutsches Fernsehen = Second German Tele channel) is moderately biased towards the social democrats and some of the french papers and magazines sometimes write what their owners want them to write, or even better they retouch a Sarkozy-in-swimming-trunks picture to make him look slimmer (how about that!).
BBC = Brown Broadcasting Corporation (not my joke but someone else's on these blogs - perhaps you can google it; I did not manage any better than LBC = Labour ... ...). Labour more likely to bestow the BBC with generous funding than the Conservatives, the problem in a nutshell, but happening in most countries where taxpayers fund a major broadcaster.
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Maybe by "Green shoots" she is referring in code to the reinstating of Blair's egotistical big hitters who are slithering their way back into Whitehall... Milburn, "Lord" mandelson, "Lord" campbell... even old Blunkett is applying his snake oil somewhere. The audacity is enough but when will they seize the joys of Spring and topple Brown, just in time for an election?
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What a non-story. It seems the only person not "out of touch" in this story might be Vadera herself -- she actually wants to talk about the economy while everyone else is still playing the game of petty Westminster politics!
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31. At 5:15pm on 14 Jan 2009, alalchan wrote:
I wish the conservatives would keep quiet for 6 months instead of talking down the economy.
I run my own company and have never been busier.
===
Good for you. I would like to buy some of your product, please post your business name, telephone number and web address for me.
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45. At 5:33pm on 14 Jan 2009, doctordisraeli wrote:
Our small business is taking lots of orders right now, particularly from Europe. We had a brilliant December as well in UK sales as soon as the VAT reduction came in.
===
Good for you. I would like to buy some of your product, please post your business name, telephone number and web address for me.
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I note that Mark_WE thinks that anyone taking time to report here on an improving order book is in the pay of the Labour Party and not really in business.
I assure you that I am in business. The VAT reduction coupled with the falling value of the pound against the dollar and other currencies is working well for us. What is damaging to business at the moment is the constantly fuelled fear- factor in the domestic market.
Sneering at people who are simply getting on with creating and maintaining jobs is just contemptable.
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@45 Our small business is taking lots of orders right now, particularly from Europe. We had a brilliant December as well in UK sales as soon as the VAT reduction came in.
Her remarks were suitably cautious, in my view, and not at all insensitive. It is time someone started talking things up a bit.
I didn't think UK exported anything anymore!
Anyway it takes some nerve to ask people to talk "things up" on the worst day for redundancies. Only Labour supporters with blinkers on can come up with such a thing. Go and tell the thousands of highly skilled workers who are being thrown out of a job to be happy because Morrisons, Tesco and MacDonald are promising to create new jobs.
Jaguar are making 350 managers redundant and I can already see them all fulfilling the ambition of their life (if they are lucky) to fill up shelves in a supermarket.
Silly statements like this are only allowed to Derek Barker and one or two of his full time employees, not to people who live in the real world.
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"Oh dear"? What's wrong with Nick Robinson this morning?
1. I think Vadera is perfectly entitled to say what she said on a television programme, given she is having lots of discussions with the bank representatives behind the scenes.
It's puzzling why (Nick Robinson and) the Conservatives believe her opinion is insensitive given she is expressing how optimistic she is personally feeling at the start of a New Year and is representing the Government of the day, whose job it is to instil people with confidence.
What's comforting about her remarks is the sense of planning and progression she suggests is occuring.
I think you're reading too much into it.
It must only look empty when pressurised political editors and opposition parties WILDLY OVER-EXAGGERATE the INSENSITIVENESS of everything THEY HEAR.
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Gordon Brown's most important economic adviser!
God help us!!!
.
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Apologise to break my vow to shut up about (un)biasedness for the day for the second time:
Those who suspected that The Guardian as well as the BBC are labour mouthpieces can rest assured: The Guardian has now reported on the Baroness Vadera event before The Times and even before The Telegraph (as far as I could verify) and has taken exactly the same reporting line as the BBC, i.e. the Lamont parallel indeed gets a prominent mention.
The UK with the Labour-BBC-The Guardian 'complex' represents a fantastic case study for political and media scientists. But government funding for the study may prove tricky to find! Hats off for AC to accomplish this, but something to get scared about as well (all the public sector job adds in The Guardian probably help to focus the minds at The Guardian).
Please note that I'm a foreigner, living abroad, never voted conservatives (was only eligible to vote in council elections while in the UK and never voted), never got paid a penny by the conservatives, not a member of the conservatives
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Just a normal day in Gordon Browns Govt.
Green shoots of the economy are now showing! Baroness who? Bet Mandy has had a word with her. Don`t think she will be doing anymore press conferences!
Labour MP Graham Stringer says dyslexia does not exist - and by the way according to Labour the world is square.
Inquests to be held in secret back on the political agenda. Don`t want the MOD to be embarassed anymore do we about lack of equipment.
Peter Mandleson deems it more important to brief the press about his idea of a loan club than tell Parliament first. Hey, its only 20 billion of tax payers money. Of no importance to our elected representatives. Only the non elected who are now ruining the country.
Peter Mandleson asked this morning on Sky by Eamonn Holmes if he would like to set the record straight about a story in todays newspapers about a black hole of 400K in his finances that allowed him to purchase a 2.5 million pad. "I haven`t read todays papers," said pinnochio as his nose got longer and longer.
And to round this oft. Gordon is still convinced the recession is everybody elses fault and nothing to do with him.
Has anyone seen Alistair Darling? I thought he was supposed to be in charge of our money or has Peter Mandleson taken over that job as well.
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It is, of course, a double edged sword for the Conservatives since it could remind people about the last recession
You also fail to mention that it was Crash who wielded that sword against the Conservative government, so therefore it is fitting that Crash has somehow become fouled on the other side of the blade.
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46 Robin
Don't you ever tire of repeatedly pedalling this Tory Propaganda that the current economis crises is all Brown's fault?
Well I don't suppose you do as it seems to be virtually a full time activity for you, 8 posts today so far, clearly not a very demanding job you have? (unless it is your job)
Well anyway thought I'd help you out, Guess what, that fool Brown has only gone and got the German economy in ecactly the same mess.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7828235.stm
Wouldn't you just know it. If only the Tories had been in power, none of this would have happened. THey'd have stuck to Labour spending plans but still have "fixed the roof" with the "magic money" that appears from cloud cuckoo land.
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Explains why the countries economy is in the state it's in, if this is the calibre of advisor Gordon Brown relies on. Also makes a nonsense of the honours system and integrity of the House of Lords. Why was she made a Baroness ?
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Whilst the USA is still in the grips of its' recession and they have no sign of growth, this is an extremely naieve thing to say and potentially dangerous. This is going to go on a lot longer than anticipated, and will be with us throughout this year and well into 2010 at the earliest before we start to see any signs of growth.
As far as the ramifications of this minister saying what she has said, I think it shows that the government is trying to spin its' own achievements. Currently the VAT package has not had an impact, thousands are losing their jobs with many more to come, the tax take is not there from any businesses to cover the interest on our debt let alone the principle, but it is ok to go and borrow more? We are going to see many years of hurt before we start to see growth again and the minister should apologise for spinning her yarn.
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I too run my own business, and we have never been as busy, thanks to the VAT cut.
We specialise in bovine excrement detectors, and are doing a roaring trade.
Our website is www.bullsh1tdetectorsRus.com
We are just bringing to market a new line as well, a detector that sniffs out party-paid bloggers.
Check out our website at www.labourtrollsRus.com
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27. At 5:10pm on 14 Jan 2009, T A Griffin (TAG) wrote:
Nick,
is this the person who gave Gordon the figures with regard to the VAT saving. Remember 52 times 5 is what, yes 260. Just listen to what the PM says on PMQs, ask him about his maths, now Gordon what is 52 times 5.
===
You should know that 52 x 5 is 275, Gordon said so, and he was in charge of the nation's finances for 10 years.
Ahh, now it all becomes horribly clear!
;-)
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Either this is a slow news day or Nick was half asleep when he wrote his blog.
It was the *interviewer* who first used the term "green shoots" and the interviewee simply echoed it in her reply.
The whole thing seems to have been over-hyped by Nick and the BBC. Various opposition politicians and journalists have been wheeled in to say how dreadful it was.
Rubbish! And rubbish journalism! Listen to the original interview and to her later response.
....
I don't believe it! The BBC has just dug up Norman Lamont to comment.
Stop flogging a dead horse and let's have some real news.
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I listened to the 5pm news on radio 4 and was disgusted how this was reported, after having played the actual conversation.
First, I am not a government supporter.
The words "greeen shoots" were placed in the question, and it was obvious those words would be used back.
I think she was quite clear about that she was into predicting, and was also clear that how they would mature was still unknown.
This is the type of sensationist tabloid journalism of which I detest.
Stop it and get back to being professionals.
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Right BACK to the real news
Blood stained HANDS
Murder on the streets
Knife R US
Sorry
Knife IS US
Oh and some interesting news no it’s the Weather also will be WRONG!
Muppets now maybe they could do a better job?
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There are a lot of successful businessmen on here all of a sudden, all making their first post on the same blog on the same day, saying the same thing.
I would have thought they would be too busy running their successful businesses, especialy now we have the green shoots of recovery and we will be out of recession, sorry downturn, there we go, old habits die hard, in 23 weeks time.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Economic Euphoria turns To Economic DOOM
There are Liars and there are Damn Liars and there are fools.
There is money in the system.
So who is telling the truth?
We are a few days into 2009
Who knows what will happen?
NOBODY or PERSON knows.
And yet the BBC report DOOM
Just like the house makeover shows BBC news has become a prime time Show feeding the demand for more DOOM.
AND just like the home makeover show they are idiots sending out the wrong message.
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@ yellowbelly1959,
Well done to come up with the question for those businessmen. Perhaps those guys have recession-proof businesses (funeral directors, debt collectors or Aldi come to my mind), but I would be very surprised if all those who unfortunately lost their jobs in the last few weeks would be rehired within a month or so.
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Nick - Gordon Brown & his socialist henchman have ruined our economy with their stealth extreme left-wing policies.
In 1997 after inheriting a Golden Legacy from Ken Clarke why did Brown have to start taxing pension funds, raising taxes and selling gold reserves?
Was it to maybe cynically build up a Labour client state to make-sure they always get elected??
The answer is YES of-course. We have 11 million people living off the goverment in mainly unproductive jobs.
The only goverment employees who vote Tory are the military!
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73 Dr Disraeli
Well Said and glad things are going well.
Clearly however you don't understand that anyone posting something remotely supportive of the gevernment will be accused as you say of being "paid" by Labour to blog, followed up by play-ground name calling and bullying to get you off.
Many on here have more than one identity so as to support their own views
Unfortunately, they don't recognise the hypocricy of accusing other of "trolling" (I think they call it) despite the fact that the Tory support on here is about 5 times their level of support (proportionately) in the polls - strange that.
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At least she didn't spend £140k on a bus advertising campaign telling people to 'stop worrying and enjoy life'. Now that would have been insensitive.
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I actually think this is more of a gaffe than you think at first.
The public tend to hang onto anything they think is good news, and I believe it will be remembered by them as the time when the Government lost touch with reality. The public already is starting to think that the Government is out of touch, with Brown trying to say we will see recovery in June. Nobody believes this will happen except Brown and A. Darling.
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RE THE HOUSE PURCHASE??
ARE WE ON FOR AN ESCHEAT?
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The other Great Claim in spring '91 was 'it will be over by Christmas'. Of course it never was.
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Nick
I have just seen ITV news and Tom Bradby has picked up on the point I have been pushing you on for a month now. Cameron brought it up in the commons but got some stupid "it depends on the GLOBAL actions taken".
This is the ridiculous debt figures in the PBR.
Labour's statement that we will see grown from July is a joke and the 1 Trillion pound debt figures are based on this.
We can all see (some of us from the day it was announced) that this is cloud cuckoo land even with green shoots.
We all want to know how long it will take us to get out of this slump but the one thing we will need to know is the cost of it and therefore the debt we will be saddled with.
I see that GDP will fall greatly away at the same time as debt and Liabilities will rocket.
For how long?
What will the gap between debt and GDP grow to?
Ultimately will we be able to sell & service all of this debt?
Are we now certain to have to go cap in hand to the IMF for a bail out?
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Well whatever next a government spokeswoman is pressed into giving an oppinion as to whether she could see any green shoots in the present economic climate ,and heaven forbid she said she was able to see a few green shoots but could not predict how or if these would grow, perhaps she can see more than others want to see.
What on earth was she doing giving people a small glimmer of hope and sending the opposition and the media into a frenzy ,the worst thing they want at present is good news ,
I am they are all having a good time at present but still no ideas .
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Lets face it who is she anyway?
It's not the first time she's come out with an off the cuff comment and I doubt will it be the last.
With today's expected announcement of job losses it just show you where she keeps her brain.... any responsible person would think what they are about to say before engaging their mouths in such situations, these are the very people we don't need running our country.
Having to use Norman Lamont's words makes you wonder if she can't think of any herself, go home Baroness Vadera and do something useful.
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Mark_We 43
That post from you was priceless I laughted my socks off, its so true.
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Such an interesting amount of fuss over a metaphor, and a cliched agricultural one at that. The only solution to such a controversy is to avoid all metaphors - no "sow the seeds", no "kick-start". I suggest a contract - the politicians agree to eschew all metaphors in favour of words more neutrally descriptive, such as "some signs of positive movement in the economy" (if "movement" is itself not a metaphor). But the counterpart would have to be that the journalists agree to abandon metaphors too (especially tired agricultural ones) as too susceptible to differing interpretations, rampant over-debate, and metaphor bloat. This will avoid all such controversies and embarrassments, but will possibly make things that bit more dull. Like the weather, I suppose. Rain on anyone's party, indeed!
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I've got a bag full of "green sprout shoots"
I'm trying to offer them to the pessimistic
tory tribe however their suspicious minds and lack of optimism means a third of the bag will have to be redistributed to the core believers.
Ho...Ho....Ho......
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Derek
you sure have the RRU out today.
Trying to rebut the damage done by Green shoot of recovery.
What a lot of successful capitalist you have in Labours Rapid Rebuttal Unit.
They seem to be flying the world flying the flag on the extra orders that have flowed since Supermans stimulus.
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Ouch!
Baroness Vadera's comment has obviously hit home.
Such a rush to play it down, change the subject and even attack the messenger.
Panic of the first order.
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The dangers of shaking hands with Jonah Brown cannot be overestimated. Keith Dye was proud to welcome Brown on a visit to his offices, it was the pinnacle of his 24 year news career:
Gordon Brown Visits Media Wales
WalesOnline - 9 January, 2009
After arriving under a heavy police escort just before 3pm, Mr Brown was given a tour of our multimedia newsroom by Media Wales' managing director Keith Dye ...
Trinity Mirror Redundancies
Press Gazette - 13 January 2009
Keith Dye, managing director of Media Wales has been made redundant and leaves today, following 24 years at the group. Media Wales’ finance director...
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What a non-story and a complete 'semantic' over-hype by the media; and how desperate did Osbourne look trying to make political capital out of it.
Immediately after slagging her off for the quote, the ITN news report then went on to give some 'green shoot' good news about new jobs in the retail sector.
As my teenager would say, "Duh!!"
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93
Eatonrifle, Masquerade Masquerade,
I think that sum up the tory trolls quite nicely.
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So anyone notice the Brownie in today's PMQs? For the uninitiated, a Brownie is a piece of fiction passed off as fact - a special subject area for our beloved PM.
He said the VAT reduction was benefiting the typical family to the tune of 5 pounds per week or 275 pounds per year. (I know there is a bit of debate about this up the thread, but I'm prepared to accept the modest differences between the two figures as rounding).
So 275 pounds a year in benefit from the VAT rate change means that you have to spend 12900 pounds per year, 1080 pounds per month or 248 pounds per week on items that were included in the rate reduction.
Remember, that means that according to Brown, the typical family has available to spend, after mortgage or rent, council tax, insurance, domestic heat light and power, travel to and from work, car fuel, children's clothes, food, alcohol, tobacco..... 250 pounds per week!! Think about it - how does that compare with your finances?
Since the Duke of Westminster is not yet being classed as being part of a typical family, Brown's figure is rich, probably by a factor of about 3.
It is another example of intentionally misleading statistics from Brown. A desperate effort to prop up his failing policy with lies. More tosh from the most dishonest Prime Minister in living memory.
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It has now been pointed out by no less than the master politician himself, Peter Mandelson, on tonights C4 News that Baroness Vadera's remark about 'green shoots', simply could not be compared to a pre-planned major strategic speech by Tory Norman Lamont.
What is more significant to my mind is that yet again, here are a couple of non-elected people, namely Mandelson and Vadera, in important Government jobs.
This is almost completely undemocratic but as long as the English people remain almost totally apathetic about their politics, then these sorts of blatant abuses of democracy will continue.
PS. And will certainly continue once the 'Eton Rifles' are back in power.
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Liberal Democrat Treasury spokesman Vince Cable said "Ministers shouldn't talk down the economy..."
Well said Vince, leave that to the BBC - they seem to be making a great job of it at the moment !
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I am in awe at the BBC. Baroness Vadera ssya something embarrassing and you preface it with something that happened in 1991. Well done Nick and the BBC. Thats your job done for Gordon today.
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LeaveEUnow @ 92 wrote:
The only goverment employees who vote Tory are the military!
Please also add in Police Officers who have the delight of dealing with the 'underclass' that Bliar, Broon, and the rest of Zanu are so keen on creating in order to shore their vote up. And please don't start me off on the 'Non Job' mob that we are supposed to work with in Partnership.
As for what this useless lot have done with the exchange rate, the constantly changing laws, the lack of proper punishment for criminals, the wrecking of pension funds, non available dentists, MRSA, shysters being given peerages, wrecking of the manufacturing industry... and lets not forget those manifesto lies....Bring on the election.
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I'm surprised how no-one has picked up on todays PMQ's, Wow! did GB lay DC out cold
the little novice was sparkeld....OUTCOLD!
Smelling salts anyone! He..Heee...Heeeee
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Nick Roninson one of our best and thorough reporter who has reported on both our Prime ministers.
It is said that Baroness Vadera has made a very senistive remark on a few green shoots of economic recovery today .I think we should all be proud our Country and be 100% loyal to the well being our of country and our citizens.As Global Citizens , we need to value Respect and Accountability, Trust and Transparency and create a culture of Shared Responsibility and Sincerely work together to build a Safe and Just, Compassionate and Tolerant Society.
We all have a collective duty to change and transform our neigbourhood into brotherhood.The perfect person is the one who sees the imperfect person perfect.
God wiling we will come out of this Global mess a prayer individuly or collective will go a long way
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Eatonrifle 93
Your "statistic" to justify the idea that non-Labour posters on here are mostly trolls is no more convincing than Brown's little fiction in PMQs today (my post 109).
It has already been pointed out, the frequency of recent Labour-supporting posts from new posters adopting the theme of "I own a business (exact nature of business not specified), we are doing great just now, especially exports to Europe, big thanks to Gordon, the only thing that's holding us back is what the Tories keep saying." It is very suspicious. It is the kind of thing, one might say, that would be perpetuated in a Labour blogging factory.
Please remember that the only positively identified troll on here is a Labour one. I won't repeat his name to cover his blushes, but let's say, woof-woof.
I know I can't stop you from talking piffle, but at least recognise that is what you are doing.
My advice to anyone else trying the "I'm a Labour-supporting businessman" gambit is, at least tell us what kind of business you are in. Just to be a bit more convincing.
And my advice to the foreman over at Labour-Blogs-R-Us is, think up a new theme, because the current one has been well and truly spotted.
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#93:
The word is 'hypocrisy'. Please get it right if you want people to respect your views.
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If Browns recovery plan is so good why is the pound so weak?
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It seems to be beyond the comprehension of some people that just because some are in trouble all are not.
Sorry but who do you think is paying the tax to pay for this lot - those mainly those working and trading in the private sector in the UK.
Not the public sector, not importers. UK based trade both domestic and export. If you think HMG tax revenues are due to drop to next to zero I would be most interested to know how you think this is happening.
As for Labour and Conservative. Both have made almighty cockups Lab now, Con in the early 90s. There is little difference in reality between policy proposals. Both are just mixing the same percentages around in slightly different mixes.
I will be glad to see the back of Brown whenever it happens. Just like I was heartily glad to see the back of Norman No Regrets Lamont.
If the Conservatives think anybody has forgotten the mess they made in the 1990s my main reaction is dream on.
Quite frankly it is which is the least replusive party, not which is the best. Both have no sense of responsibility, neither has apologised. Both are abject policy failures. Yes FAILURES. Both pontificate.
Who would buy a secondhand car from either A Darling or G Osborne. I wouldnt. Please tell me if you would. Just post to that effect. Nominate which one and that you would buy. They both claim to be the solution. Darling looks out of his depth. So does Osborne, problem is he isnt even in the water.
So I know you find it truely appalling, how 21st century British, but here we are doing okay. If you are not, sorry but that is not my fault, look elsewhere. Either in the mirror or at HMG. I'm fed up with the unrelenting bais on this site.
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#104
PortcullisGate, Dont be silly, Jeez! all those recession that the tories put the British public through in the 90's and not once did they care or lift a finger to help those effected.
You just dont get it! do you! its about helping the people, it's about doing something, it's certainly not about doing nothing like the tories did and are suggesting again.
Now! stop talken your country down.
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Hate to shatter your coffee induced delusions of grandeur Baroness, but we haven't even seen the end of the begining yet.
Any green shoots you are refering to must be buds from the herbs you intend rolling into a 'herbal cigarette' and smoking.
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#31 alalchan
You must be in business with Derek Draper.
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Stupid, stupid! How can this be the BBC's lead story? There needs to be some optimism in this country, otherwise we may just as well turn the light out and close the door for good.
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Nick
Oh Dear Oh Dear
The 10 O'clock new pay off line.
That made you look a fool, very sad.
the screws must really be being turned.
But its not surprising when you see the frenzy of the Labour RRB on here tonight.
After you said it I switched to ITV for superior coverage.
Now they have tugged so hard on your lead you will now have to behave.
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Having just watched this as the lead article on the news at 10 I find myself wishing you would find a real story to follow rather than creating a pointless one. Utter rubbish, stop it!
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I thought the headlines and Nick Robinson's report were very unfair given the interviewer asked directly about 'green shoots' - the question should have been aired but instead it was made to look like she spontaneously used these words. I expect better of the BBC, the ITN coverage was much clearer and balanced
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I do not wish to jump the gun but if the Government press ahead with the decision to build the third runway at Heathrow then I think that this will be just about the worst business decision that they will have ever made on our behalf.
Certainly if T5 is any sort of example.
Have any of you been through that terminal?
I did late last year upon returning from the USA and as an elderly gentleman struggling alongside me said 'this terminal is not for children or older people but only the very fit'.
Indeed that is what I noticed too, miles and miles to walk and this thing cost billions of pounds to build .... there is no excuse when 'virtual reality' software exists to model this sort of thing before a single brick is laid.
Nobody can get away from the fact that Heathrow is in the wrong place ... and in my opinion, a totally new airport should be built in the Thames Estuary off the Isle of Sheppey* with a high speed link to Ebbsfleet.
* Once the Richard L Montgomery is dealt with ... which would be my number 1 priority if I was the English PM.
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Hi Nick,
This is more reminiscent of Jim Callaghan's memorable "Crisis? What crisis?" which, ultimately, cost him the election.
At that time, no one criticised the Tories or anyone else for saying just how insensitive his remark was to those who were suffering. And yet, somehow, the Opposition is now expected to stay silent on the matter (or, at least, criticised if they do not).
It is not so much out of touch (although, it is obviously that too) rather than being denial. Incumbents, when they have been in power too long, feel that the best way of dealing with a catastrophe is to deny its existence.
As you well know, Gordon is petrified of repeating Callaghan's mistakes. But just as a golfer is focused on not hitting the bunker just moments before he does, Gordon's demise is inevitable.
It is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
See you in the pub.
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Great work guys, well done, and the great unwashed have swallowed it hook line and sinker - just watch the money roll in - who's for a slap up feed on the profits. As for me i can now finish that marble ceiling above the swimming pool!
Thank goodness for the gullibility of our great nation, we'll clean up big time at both ends of this so called crisis just as long as they are too lazy to think for themselves.
Keep up the good work,
Yours respectfully,
Corporatemogul
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I think that all parties should channel their energy into putting this country right, instead of waiting for any opportunity to slag each other off. I don't think the comment about the green shoots was made with any intention of offending anyone and has been blown out of all proportion. Too much time is wasted by these MPs constantly squabbling with each other instead of getting on with the job that the tax payer is paying them to do!!!.
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If this lady could see the green shoots of recovery, then she must have been using some weed to do it.
The truth of the matter is that Ally and Mandy believe that if people are told often enough that there are green shoots of recovery, they will start to believe it.
She was unfortunate to draw the short straw to be the first labour politician to have to say it - probably because she can't be pilloried in the house of commons for doing it.
As soon as Ally and Mandy think the "message" is getting through, Gordon "I'm not even thinking of an election" Brown will be off like a shot to kick one off
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Print money. Nationalise the banks. Problem solved.
Come on Dave....say it, get elected, then do it..........
Then privatise the banks in a few years and make loads of money for us taxpayers.........rather than the greedy banks............
They got us into this mess so if their shareholders lose everything...so what!
This Gov't is dithering and tinkering.
We need leadership not contrained by idealogy or the past.
Come on Dave...........be bold.........YES YOU CAN!
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@120 derekbarker wrote:
"stop talken your country down."
Spin is great when you are on the front foot, as Labour was back in the late 'nineties. But spin is useless as a defence when you are on the back foot, since it is seen as obfuscation by the public.
A typical mechanism of Labour spin is to criticise those who disagree for something they never said, did, or believe.
So. Criticise the Iraq war, and the spun response is "I think it is important that we support our troops" when no one suggested otherwise.
And you are at it again, I am afraid. Pointing out the staggering incompetence of the Government is not the same thing as talking the country down.
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Such is the stuff of News in our little country, or at least what's left of it.
Two questions for Nick
Why does the Beeb insist on calling this severe recession, the much softer sounding 'economic downturn'? Orders from number 10 perhaps?
My second is what happened over the Damian Green affair? Were charges droppped? Will the speaker hold his inquiry or, now that more than fifteen minutes have elapsed, is this yestrday's news and of no inteest to anyone?
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She used a phrase fed to her by the interviewer. Have we no more important things to get upset by. Another example of how the media can twist and manipulate what is said.
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Look.
To all the Labour activists that are posting on this blog today...
The comment WAS insensitive. It is not for you to judge what others should or should not find offensive. But the fact that you cannot even appreciate that it MAY have been, speaks volumes.
Secondly, it was wildly inaccurate. Today, thousands of people lost their jobs, stores closed, and the stock market dropped 5%
That doesn't happen when a recovery is in progress.
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How pathetic was that interview with Mandy on Newsnight.
Barely not a challenge in sight.
No mention of house shortfall.
"cometh the hour, cometh the man" Pathetic.
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78. briangare
'Labour MP Graham Stringer says dyslexia does not exist'
Well its off thread but deserves comment. So - Sorry I will make one.
Just what is MP G Stringers disability because he must have an undiagnosed one. Perhaps MP Stringer has a problem with education, perhaps MP Stringer was put at the back of the class and thinks it was all the teachers fault. Beats me.
In fact it pretty much leaves me speechless, wish it did the same to him.
Funny, I thought MPs were elected to represent the views of their consituents. Perhaps MP Stringer would like to confirm that he is indeed doing that, or that at the very least he has checked with medical professionals who have clearly spent more time looking into the matter than MP Stringer.
In fact I would be most interested in knowing if MP Stringer has ever met a professionally diagnosed dyslexic, or as they prefer, someone at risk of dyslexia, which incidentally would appear to be part of a spectrum of conditions - Which includes asbergers, ADHD, autism etc etc. Which MP Stringer probably does not also recognise. IMHO.
But then I'm not a professional in the area, and I do not have the same learning curve as MP Stringer.
There again perhaps MP Stringer would like to be nominated for a Nobel Prize - he must have a truely stupendous brain to overturn established opinion in the short time he has given to this matter.
I am sure he is going to rapidly move up the Labour ladder and with such breathtaking assessment capability is just the man to take on the bigger problems that we all now face. There again perhaps his support will wane at the next GE. Heres hoping, up to you to guess which outcome my hope leans towards. : )
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You really are making a meal out of this and what she said really was not the awful gaffe you are painting it as.
Most people faced with the serried ranks of the media braying for a doom and gloom sound bite (and setting us up with the words) would find it hard not to fall into that trap. She wasnt being optimistic or ill-judged at all and it wasnt in any way comparable with the tub-thumping 'green shoots' proclamation we got from Lawson during the last very long and painful recession.
You seem to think you 'speak' for people who are losing their jobs or businesses or getting into debt but you dont .
You cant claim this type of reporting and your coverage of the economic situation is 'meeting the public interest' because you dont have a way of checking with all the public. I dont either but just from discussions in my organisation, with friends and family and other people (many of whom are directly affected) it is clear that they feel the media coverage is alarmist and sensationalising the issue. We want facts and information from the BBC but making people feel that we are all heading for the abyss and blowing up the quoted out of context comments of politicians is not responsible journalism.
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derekbarker 114 (and 120 too)
Olympic scale trolling from you, backed up by at best a small number of your friends witha large number of different IDs - hat-tip to yellowbelly @129.
I can't believe you saw the same PMQs as I did. Brown looked shabby and desperate. The lie about VAT benefit to "typical" families - my post 109 - will come back to bite him, I suspect, and he looked like a man who knew he was in trouble as he said it. The rest was just a variation on the failed "do nothing" catchphrase. Even the support from his own backbenches was muted. Cameron by comparison still looks fresh and well-supported, even with a heavy cold.
Prediction: Gordon will be gone soon. I give him just a couple of months. It'll be "health reasons" to spare his blushes.
The heavy trolling from your side shows just what a rotten day it was for Brown and his cronies.
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I cannot believe that this has been made into a news story, let alone the first one featured on tonights BBC News.
When I first heard the comments "I am seeing a few green shoots but it's a little bit too early to say exactly how they'd grow.", made by Baroness Vadera, I thought I'd missed something because I couldn't see a news story in it.
Morrisons plan to create 5000 jobs this year (green shoot)
Sainsburys plan to create 4000 jobs this year (green shoot)
There was another firm expanding on the TV News (but I can't find an item relating to it online - green shoot).
Shadow Chancellor George Osborne's comments about what planet the Labour government is on, I don't understand. Perhaps it's best that someone so negative should remain Shadow Chancellor rather than being the actual Chancellor.
I'd rather hear something positive from Baroness Vadera than the doom and gloom from Osbourne (though we all know he would just have skipped the question and not given an answer which in my opinion is even worse than the doom and gloom).
I swear the Conservatives would deny that grass is green if Labour said it was in their attempt to win votes. It'd be nice to see a party want whats best for the British people rather than just saying the opposite to a government just to pick up votes.
Simon
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I agree with poster 'chrisleopard' about the comments Barones Vadera made... seems to me like Nick Robinson has picked her up on that one statement and it's been twisted out of context into a news grabbing headline, and I didn't expect anything different from the neophyte George Osbourne.
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I hope the Baroness is correct if she's seeing signs of a few green shoots.
Maybe if bonds are starting to sell in the USA, then the global crisis ("begun in the USA" could find it's source of recovery there as well.
It sounds a little optimistic, as private sector jobs drop like flies, but....
I was trying to work out the last time any government had so many ministers sitting in the Lords. It's a tad sad that even with a good majority, Brown can't find enough elected (MP) talent at his disposal...
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Very typical of the press and the opposition - the comments of Baroness Vedadera were level and far from insensitive. By the way, both myself and my wife faced redundancy today...
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Dontcha think the tories are like the proverbial "ice cube" every time the sun rises the tories melt away.
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136. At 10:55pm on 14 Jan 2009, sanecomment wrote:
She used a phrase fed to her by the interviewer. Have we no more important things to get upset by. Another example of how the media can twist and manipulate what is said.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
This how Labour got into power.
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I hope it's Labour party funds that are paying you Nick and not the taxpayer.
Oh, silly me, the licence fee IS the people's donation to Labour, isn't it!
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133. At 10:42pm on 14 Jan 2009, BankruptBritainRIP wrote:
Print money. Nationalise the banks. Problem solved.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Erm, don't think that's going to solve anything.
You don't get it, do you? The whole banking system is completely and utterly insolvent. Massive losses on residential and commercial property, massive losses on company loans, massive losses on credit cards and, most impressively, insane losses on credit defaults. All these still to come.
The banking system will bring down the UK economy. Iceland is the fortaste - and there is nothing ANYONE can do to stop it.
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The green shoots have been sprayed with weedkiller thanks to Comrade Brown's borrow-and-waste policies.
Untill Brown is heaved out of office, expect no green. Just more brown.
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140. At 11:11pm on 14 Jan 2009, Juliechome wrote:
You really are making a meal out of this and what she said really was not the awful gaffe you are painting it as.
Most people faced with the serried ranks of the media braying for a doom and gloom sound bite (and setting us up with the words) would find it hard not to fall into that trap. She wasnt being optimistic or ill-judged at all and it wasnt in any way comparable with the tub-thumping 'green shoots' proclamation we got from Lawson during the last very long and painful recession.
===
It was Norman Lamont.
Get Dolly to check your homework for you next time before submitting it.
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#151
Bluntpatter, 10 days to save the pound!
Theactrical behaviour from you is as good as do nothing.
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New to blogging - but here goes because its something I feel strongly about. The BBC should be ashamed of itself for fuelling the fire with yet more irresponsible reporting and for airing Peter Mandlesons withering soundbite on News at Ten.
Non PC it may be - but depite the headlines there are some good things happening and by reporting this, it is just possible that it might start to restore some confidendence. Is it not conceivable Nick, that this was the underling message from Baroness Vadera?
Well thanks very much for puting paid to that noble effort. I'm sure all my staff will be chuffed to bits to know that there is nothing to look forward to!
Brookesbarn
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Well yes, I am a first-time blogger and won't bother again.
I won't reveal the nature of my business because it is specialised enough to give away my identity and, after reading so many vitriolic comments here tonight, I wouldn't want to hear from most of you again.
What I wrote was true. I didn't expect to be accused of lying or being a political hack. The simple fact is that our phones went dead from the afternoon of the mini-budget until 9.00 a.m. on Dec 1st. After that we were rushed off our feet so it doesn't take genius to infer that the VAT rate cut made a difference. If it didn't work for Marks and Sparks then that's their prob;em.
Yes, Britain does still export and nearly 50% of my turnover is from overseas. It would be a damned sight easier to keep 12 people in employment if the home market wasn't so panic-stricken.
I posted here this evening because I made a brief check on the news headlines and wanted to see what on earth the fuss was about. I am shocked at what I find here.
What shocks me most is that anyone who does report anything positive is accused of insensitivity , untruthfulness, silliness etc .
I'm far too naive, and busy, for this sort of nonsense.
Don't bother with sneering replies. I won't be here.
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Odd, isn't it?
Anatole Kaletsky in the Times waxes lyrical about the moderating influence of Lord Mandelson on the Brown regime.
Firstly, for apparently being the mid-wife to the bank-loan guarantee scheme which he at least recognised some merits, despite it's Tory origins.
Secondly, for helping Brown defer any decision about a putative third runway at Heathrow.
He remarks:
"There is debate in Westminster about Lord Mandelson's precise role in dissuading the Prime Minister from his economically stupid, environmentally destructive and electorally suicidal obsession with expanding Heathrow."
Now, the BBC is announcing that "The Government's Minister for Transport Geoff Hoon will today announce the go-ahead for that third runway".
Makes you weep, sometimes.
Kaletsky is supposed to be an economist. He may well be right about the financial justification for either wiping out a village at LHR or relocating to a new location.
But surely he would have been politically savvy enough to realise that Brown would obviously go ahead with the LHR expansion. If only to oppose Boris Johnson's resistance!
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There's an interesting juxtaposition in the views of the Baroness and yet another unelected Peer in the Department, Stephen Carter, who is reported to have matched the Baroness' "grannies" with "What I tell them is nine-tenths bullshit and one-tenth selected facts" concerning the minor shareholders hit by his most eminent success, leading NTL into bankruptcy in 2002.
All told, as at this moment the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform is headed by four Ministers and three Under-Secretaries. Of these, two Ministers and two Under-Secretaries have no elected mandate. Hardly surprising nothing's happening about reform then, is it?
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I do think the blog records a non event, but I checked what shoots were around in the NW tonight. Tesco with £65 m investment in three stores and ten Expresses (1700 jobs), A speciliast in commerial vehicle accident services taking on 15 people, a small engineering outfit with new orders already this year half a million for Malaya and Greece, a confident pie company as it moves into increasingly suppling Aldi and the discounters, and reports of a residential rental boom as house purchasers hold off from commitment. Yesterday there was a lot of examples of industry benefiting from the fallen Pound. Yes the situation is serious but it does have some twinkling lights in the current rather gloomy weather. I trust the NuCons here will welcome these but fear they will conitnue the same old dreary tunes about Gordon's Gang. They are now becoming rather un British chaps talking our country down.
Oh by the way the announcements this week will show that G'Ossie's still unpublished 'plan' on the 9th was indeed a spoiler
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I don't like state-managed industries very much. Few of them work efficiently.
But I'd have preferred Brown forget the 2.5percent VAT reduction and instead use that money to invest in genuinely useful technology (which the UK is still able to produce).
Obvious, really. VAT is a "relative" tax. It has nothing to do with the cost of production or "taxable unit". (Duties on - e.g. - alcohol, cigarettes are "absolute", being payable at the same level regardless of price to the end user.)
VAT is taken as a proportion of the final sales price. So, if an outlet reduces it's price to customer from GBP 100 down to GBP 60, the VAT take goes down in proportion.
So even the estimate of a GBP 12Billion tax-take reduction has to be wrong. No idea on what basis those figures were calculated, but with many retail prices getting slashed, the final annual VAT take is going to be a whopping sight more than the Treasury statisticians calculated.
Far better if the Treasury had accepted they would take a hit, but still hypothicated a proportion of VAT revenue to boost wave/tidal power, alternative car-fuel options, clean coal-powered energy production, etc...
Too simple. Far better to make retailers jump through hoops to amend their pricing, with the promise that they'll have to put prices up again (at least to reflect VAT elements) in 18 months time.
Stuff should be simple.
Surely governments could at least agree on that!
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Just look at the hysterical reaction to her words reflected in many of these comments and splashed across tomorrow's front pages. A complete and utter overreaction for what was essentially falling into a trap laid for her by the interviewer. Even the BBC made her the top story I notice. Pathetic.
To everyone who has made a big thing of this - YOU are the very reason we have the kind of superficial politics we do in this country.
I'm no fan of Labour at all, but shame on you all for turning political life into such a circus.
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My, my, Dolly and his trolls have got rather upset about one of their own being stitched up by ITN, haven't they?
Shows a bit of a lack of judgement, and a lack of awareness of political history to fall into that trap.
They don't like it when spin is turned on them, do they?
Ah well, live by the sword, die by the sword.
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Time the conservatives, lower case deliberate, got some ideas together.
All the do is criticise from their bankcrupt of ideas vault, voiced by the Peter Pan Cameron, who more and more sounds like a whinging failure.
When he arrived on the scene, I thought.. ok this is a guy I could vote for. Sadly no more, once again the conservatives have produced a pathetic leader.
Get off the Woman's back or get onto Lamonts. *smiles*........
There are more important things to not only debate but to JOIN FORCES ON....... not least the UK economy and Our future.
You playboy politicians amaze me in your total disregard (apart from words) of the main folk in every main street.
May your parents suffer what you in your blind self interest condemn most parents to.
May your families suffer what you in your blind interest condemn most families to.
Best regard *thumb in cheek*
Me
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154. At 00:03am on 15 Jan 2009, Brookesbarn wrote:
New to blogging - but here goes because its something I feel strongly about. The BBC should be ashamed of itself for fuelling the fire with yet more irresponsible reporting and for airing Peter Mandlesons withering soundbite on News at Ten.
Non PC it may be - but depite the headlines there are some good things happening and by reporting this, it is just possible that it might start to restore some confidendence. Is it not conceivable Nick, that this was the underling message from Baroness Vadera?
Well thanks very much for puting paid to that noble effort. I'm sure all my staff will be chuffed to bits to know that there is nothing to look forward to!
Brookesbarn
===
News At Ten is ITV, don't insult Nick like that.
"I'm sure all my staff..."
Not another one! So tell me, I bet your business is doing well at the moment, the VAT cut has been a big success, and you and all your staff think Gordon is doing a great job?
I would like to spend some of my money to help the economy, so please let me have details of your company name, telephone number and website address. Thank you.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
158. At 00:21am on 15 Jan 2009, cping500 wrote:
I do think the blog records a non event, but I checked what shoots were around in the NW tonight. Tesco with ?65 m investment in three stores and ten Expresses (1700 jobs), A speciliast in commerial vehicle accident services taking on 15 people, a small engineering outfit with new orders already this year half a million for Malaya and Greece, a confident pie company as it moves into increasingly suppling Aldi and the discounters, and reports of a residential rental boom as house purchasers hold off from commitment.
===
A residential rental boom is the sign of a collapsed housing market, not green shoots recovery.
People cannot sell their homes, so are renting them out instead, those renting are those who have lost their homes from unemployment and repossession.
Spin indeed!
Gratton - 1000 job losses
Barclays - 4200 job losses
Jaguar Land Rover - 450 job losses
Zavvi - 353 - job losses
Pfizer - 240 job losses
Property sales fell even further in December, according to the latest survey from the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors (Rics).
House prices fell by 15.9% last year, according to the latest survey by the Nationwide building society
The collective deficit of the UK's final salary pension schemes shot up in December to £195bn, according to the official pension scheme safety net.
FTSE - down 5% today
Not many green shoots there.
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#146 derekbarker wrote:
"Dontcha think the tories are like the proverbial "ice cube" every time the sun rises the tories melt away."
Dontcha think it's odd that some pretty savage political decisions helped Maggie melt the "Winter of Discontent"...
Too harsh in several aspects, but the UK was economically frozen.
Dontcha know that in 1975, Wilson's government had inflation peaking at 26percent? (Only time in my life I got a 25percent pay rise for doing the same job.)
Dontcha know that people couldn't even bury their dead? And activists picketed hospitals, so many could only deal with emergency intake?
Dontcha know that lots of people had a desire to make the UK a genuinely productive and inclusive society? Based on a little bit of economically reality, alongside social conscience...
Dontcha know that a lot of folk believed there could be a coal-mining, steel-producing, ship-building, car-producing, aircraft-building environment in the UK? But what was there was a sub-Soviet society.
Dontcha know that, in those days, many of the people now in senior positions, went through grammar and secondary schools and emerged with understanding?
Dontcha think it's time to worry about what governments do - or allow to be done?
Dontcha think it's time for all of us to live within our means?
THAT includes government administrations!
If it means they can't spend what they haven't got, well, great.
If I borrow, it is only me who accepts a responsibility to repay. (Although that could be passed to my wife or my estate if I popped it.)
If Governments borrow, the individual Ministers have no responsibility whatsoever. They just pass their debts on to a new administration - which in reality means just another lot of tax-payers.
Your children and mine.
I didn't like some of the outcome from the Thatcher years.
Still think that, with suitable encouragement, coal could have been economic in the UK.
Still believe that Brits (Scots/Welsh/Irish - OK bits of - / English) would have come up with a mechanism to capture and largely neutralise CO2 emission.
It's being done elsewhere.
I do like people being taught all sorts of stuff. From which they will find a thread hat suits them.
I don't like people being taught things that "should appeal to them, without making them stress about whether they actually understand anything"...
Check that model against the Chinese, Japanese, Indian versions.
That's why I get a bit teed off by the "child-centred" educational approaches.
Delivering "me-centred" output.
Who can't read or write English as well as the Indian science graduates.
Dontchna know that it's pretty hard for a social leaning schmuch like me to get so pi**ed off with a Government that just believes that taxing is good, saving is bad?
I'd be very happy if any government hired Gurkhas, post army service - to roam the halls of every school and tell children to sit down and focus.
And allow them to back it up.
Those guys climb the mountain to get into the British Army. They understand the privileges we offer to our children. They don't understand why so many children fail to realise that "I want to be Jordan, or Jade, or some other non-entity" equates to having the chance to grow up in a knowledge-based society.
Wow.
Not sure why sometimes your posts are completely non-understandable, while on other posts you write so that we can all understand.
That's a skill.
Like learning music.
Hope your children are doing well.
Mine will be paying taxes they don't yet know about for most of their lives.
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So Baroness Vadera sees some evidence of some green shoots. Since the media seem to find this suggestion rediculous, they must beleive there are no green shoots. I genuinely must ask: what would this mean?
Would it mean that no sector of the economy, perhaps no business in the economy, will grow? That everything will shrivel and die together?
Let's face it, there is no substantive story here. Apparently the phrase was (mis)used in 1991, it is this fact that has caused so many journalists to get excited. That the contexts are so different - a planned speach for which one can carefully choose the tone one wishes, and an interview in which a single question was given a mildly optimistic answer - seems to have been completely ignored.
Stick to major issues and events - like the economy, the middle east and Charles using someone's nickname! ;) - not silly things like this.
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Reporters who "set traps" for politicians in an effort to embarrass them are not real journalists. They are cheap hacks devoid of integrity or shame.
How about treating the issue with the seriousness that it deserves?
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What I don't get is the idea that local councils have decided that they need to constrain costs, but Brown has no qualms at all about spending money he - which means we - don't have.
(This wasn't something that started after those nasty people created a "global credit crisis that originated in the USA" - I'm sure he will get on just fine with Obama, if he blames everything on Bush. Until he actually accepts that some of the UK finance houses were doing the same thing... In our case, it started a while before. When the BoE/ Treasury/ FSA decided that it just couldn't be bothered to check out exactly how UK banks operated. Or the real value of "assets" they held as capital... Sorry, folks, the post-Thatcher/Major regulations were torn up by Brown. The UK institutions could have told our finances houses to behave. They chose not to. Why? Because it offered a good revenue stream - which could be taxed. Just like it was easy to withdraw tax-benefits that could have helped people in private companies to build up pension funds.)
Funny.
I was a switch voter.
Not this time.
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It’s simple stupid or is it stupid simple - the vast majority of our self elected would be leaders are so focused on their own importance they have forgotten everything they never learnt from history and that is always to our peril.
Of course to a mass media infatuated by sound bite and little substance then the only bit of history worthy of mote is another media created sound bite “green shoots” but the lessons of history that this set of political egocentric leaders have failed to take on board is that what goes round comes round, what goes up comes down, what explodes implodes and what grows withers.
You have to find a way to learn from experience and balance an economy or accept its cyclic change as nothing in life only stupidity has ever stayed constant.
It’s that simple or simply that constant we have had fourteen years of excessive fiscal greed without any balance and neither our elected or our un-elected leaders have done anything to tackle any of the sheer immoral and unethical practices by thousands in the financial centres of the world that generated this recession only first grab their share of any ill gotten gains.
So sadly any green shoots when ever they come are going to be the rebirth of the same vine on which once again millions of innocent people around the world will wither while a controlling few get totally intoxicated on its pressed fruit and fling us back into another credit hell or worse.
If there are any shoots so soon after pouring billions of pounds into a corrupt financial community by discredited government financia managers then any self respecting community would rip them out and ensure that what ever grew in the future was fit for our future purpose.
We need recovery not the same disease whatever we do while we have the same fiscal policy the same immoral and or inept fiscal centres and while we have misdirected regulators we are only going to go round into the same mess again
Come on courage take the opportunity to sort it now lets have some ethics in Leadership it might evenfilter down to the rest of us.
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@yellowbelly1959
Why does anyone simply praising labour automatically qualify them as dolly draper? Its quite sad that you spend your time endlessly accusing people. Funnily enough labour supporters DO exist - and theres quite a lot, actually.
Oops - no doubt I'm Dolly Draper...because...*shock* *horror* I Said something....positive. And before you ask, yes, I'm a new blogger. Oh yeah - I forgot - that makes me Dolly Draper, dosent it!
This is such a non story anyway. So just stop being silly.
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Given the number of RRU new posters, someone must like the baroness a lot. I wonder why. Maybe we should stop criticising Nick's spin if the clogging of this blog is what happens when he doesn't toe the NuLab line. If the RRU think that the spouting of all this dross positively influences anyone with more than 2 brain cells, they are even more stupid than I thought.
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jovial@173
No, you're derek and I claim my £5. Has everyone else gone to bed, or can you rouse a few more into action?
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yes isnt it terrible that someone is looking at the glass as half full.
Doesnt she know that we must all be totally negitive about the economy!!!
If she needs lessons she should go to the BBC as they have led the way with bad news during this trying time.
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Why is it that all the torie voters are always negative?
I support labour, but I fully acknowledge their big mistakes.
However I dont go around accussing torie comments of being in the pay of the tories...do I?
However obviously half the people on this blog are in the pay of labour because they voiced their opinions.
:\
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Please be quiet. Its very sad that you cant be content with just voicing your opinions.
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Thanks tallshort :)
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Although.....hate 2 say it tall short - but u r a new blogger 2 - so its possible I am thanking someone in the pay of labour....
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tallshort & jovial
I like the duet, but I'm afraid I must get some sleep. Running a workshop for business advisers later today. I'll ask them if they've seen any green shoots in the last few days, and let you know.
Don't stay up too late, dears, and make sure you claim your overtime and anti-social hours payments. Nighty night.
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In the economy (national and global) rises and falls rarely happen in a straight line and do not affect all sectors equally.
It ought to be obvious that it will be several months till the full effects of this recession work their way through the economy. We should be prepared for a long, hard slog.
Perhaps Lady Vadera is whistling in the dark.
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#36
The news from the front is good. We are advancing, the enemy is in full retreat and the loss of life has been worthwhile. The sacrifices need remembering. The country should be proud. People who complain are fifth columnists, they need to be weeded out.
You just don't get it do you. I ask you 'do the ends justify the means?'
As others have stated, businesses which need so much help do not deserve to be 'saved', for what?
We are soon to complete our retreat from Iraq, Afghanistan cannot be far behind, we will retreat from there as well, we just cannot afford these wars, in money terms let alone the costs of the dead and injured soldiers and their 'loved ones'.
Give us an election, before the spring is over. As for down here in Devon we are due to have County County elections in May, these may now well be cancelled because of some sort of non reorganisation of local government. A democracy, you must be joking!
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jovialjagger no I am most certainly not a member of any political party and never will be.
Im just feed up of this 24hr media hammering away at us until we all want to top ourselves.
Pammyanne I dont get anti-social hours payments because a few years ago some of those poor little business advisors you talk about turned up at my work and advised that the managers change our T & Cs to be "competitive" not that its done anyone any good now I suppose as we are all broke but Im sure those poor stuggling business advisors got a nice fat bonus for turning my place of work from a good family firm employing thousands of local people into a paying prison employing mostly agency staff.
Please thank them for me.
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#146:
Actually No!
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What I still fail to understand is why the BBC continues to report only the bad news... such as Barclays to shed 2,000 jobs etc. when Tescos, Morrisons, and Sainsburys have annouced major job creations. Aldi itself is the leading graduate recruitment offering £40K plus car to the lucky applicant.
There is now doubt that things are not wonderful, but a little more positive reporting and a better balance of news might help us all to get through this!
change the record BBC: is all getting a little boring.
PMA is the only way through this awful mess.
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I know the forward.
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Dear Nick
Lets forget about green shoots and deal with some thing real instead,
WESTERN BETRAYAL OF THE GURKHAS.
This is obscene, a betrayal that will go too far Loyal and Honest men who have fought for this country for centuries being told they are too expensive.
Get rid of a few Generals and Admirals instead and save Millions on Pensions.
these are the expensive ones, We do not need any more Green shoots, Branching off into Whitehall and the pension Gravy Chain, especially now MPs have increased their pension status, and to afford it get rid of the Gurkhas.
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There are no green shoots that I can see, just plenty of manure..
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More seriously.
I'm normally quite supportive of the BBC against accusations of bias, but in the green shoots witch-hunt yesterday, I thought it is was rather scruffy journalism. I'd expect it from a tabloid newspaper journalist, but not the BBC.
If you're going to show the ministers reply repeatedly on every conceivable news bulletin, it really ought to be shown in the context of the exact question that was asked to her.
So as I say, I thought it was more of a witch-hunt than a serious faux-pas...
If there genuinely is some loosening in the bonds market, that probably is some slightly more encouraging news and I do want to hear about it....
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Oh dear! Once again Nick shows himself to be entirely out of touch with the real issues. While ITN, Nick R and the tories are bleating on about "How could she say 'green shoots'", we, the people of our suffereing economy, are hoping and working for a real solution.
It is unbelievably crass to attach such importance to this non-story. It is in Cameron's job and nature to ignore the issue and concentrate on this rubbish, but we really expect the BBC to have a clearer idea of where the priorities lie.
Just because Norman Lamont said the words all those years ago, journalists have been plotting ways to make a minister say them again.
The manoeuvering to make the Baroness say them , and the subsequent crowing by Nick Robinson, thoroughly disgraces both ITN and the BBC.
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Well the lady was only reflecting what some eminent and respected economists are saying.
http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/2785
The real issue is, will the medicine be delivered as the patient leaves hospital.
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#182 excellent posting my friend and a timely reminder of the background to the Harridan . Rank hypocracy !
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Neweconomist@193
The 'eminent and respected economists' you quote are based in California. They are referring to the United States of America.....not the United Kingdom. Nice try though.
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Oh cear...
The BBC had to dig out ancient footage of Lamont to try to save Labours embarassment.
Anyway...
Nick,
On R4 this morning Humphreys had a fair old rant about journalists (particularly BBC journalists) not being allowed in to gaza to do their very important job of independantly reporting the truth of the situation there.
When I look at what you (as a BBC journalist) do with your freedom to report on politics in this country, I just have to laugh out loud...
You act as (part of) Browns presence in the BBC - while Humphreys is galantly arguing the case for allowing real journalists do a real job - ha ha ha.
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Maybe this lady is a "Kiwi".
They eat "roots, shoots and leaves".
Jokes aside -- as predicted by #15-- the BBC did their utmost to remind everyone of the Lamont quote -- even had B&W pictures in the news. Shame on the BBC for their constant support and bias toward Brown and Labour. Your time will come.
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The BBC really is clutching at straws lately.
Norman Lamont's comment was made years ago, but Nick's last paragraph 'reminded' us all of the last recession.
Prince Harry made his comment 3 years ago, but the BBC made it headline news this week.
Not sure when Prince Charles' comment was made, but I'm 99% sure it wasn't that recent.
The BBC are obviously too frightened to report the real news and more and more of us are realising this. As the BBC is mainly publicly funded, this is dreadful journalism.
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#16
The only way is via the media and the unnecessary reporting of everything that is bad. The media continue to report daily how bad things are rather than some of the positives
As opposed to the past decade when they simply printed number 10 press releases verbatim proclaiming the 'end of boom and bust' and that Gordon Brown was a miracle chancellor.
Perhaps if the BBC had been digging into the miraculous mountain of debt being built up and reporting the same then we wouldn't have been sleep-walked into this economic catastrophe by the most incompetent government since records began.
Even as it is they are still putting a very healthy positive 'spin' on the fact that the UK's economy is totally screwed and it was Gordon Brown wot did it. Green shoots of recovery. Hah.
As I read elsewhere Labour would be better off recycling their own historical apologies when they drive the UK into recession rather than an old Tory quote.
I suggest:
"It does not mean that the pound here in Britain, in your pocket or purse or in your bank, has been devalued."
Harold Wilson, 1967
"I promise if you look at it from the outside, I don't think other people in the world would share the view that there is mounting chaos."
Jim Callaghan, 1979
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189#
Free Cornwall:
Yeah I caught that this morning as well.
It had better not be true.
If this is allowed to happen I will be kicking my local MP's door in demanding a vote of no confidence, firstly in John Hutton, if he allows it to happen and secondly in Crash.
And remain kicking it in until he either has me locked up or does something about it.
Its beyond disgusting.
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Dolly Barker appears to be losing her mind looking back at previous posts.
Suffice to say the green shoots are not a non story as it appears in all today's papers.
There's plenty of bluster for governemtn ministers about Baroness Vadera's soaring intellect and good intentions.
I see little evidence of either - not in her current or prior behaviour. Quite the opposite in fact; she looks rather gaffe prone to me and is behind the banks rescue package that has failed to rescue the banks so far.
Still, I'm sure she is enjoying her regular trips to Chequers at the expense of the taxpayer to massage Gordon Brown's ego.
Call an election
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#167, #182 fairlyopenmind
Great posts - you still remain by far the most balanced and sensible contributer to this blog, and that includes Nick Robinson :)
I don't really think this is half the story that's been made of it, but I confess I do enjoy seeing all the frantic squirming that's followed it, from both Westminster and the apologists on here.
I'd love to believe that things are getting better, but unfortunately I'm more inclined to judge things on the evidence.
The latest Labour party mantra that anyone worried about the recession is "talking the economy down" is really quite hilarious. It's more than obvious to me that the government's Ministry of Truth is well schooled in the art of memetics and is using it to try and pull the wool over everyone's eyes as usual. Whilst this is standard practice in the advertising industry it's not really suitable for government.
Unfortunately instead of getting a government we've been subjected to a 12 year (albeit very successful) marketing campaign, aimed at convincing us that they've been looking after our interests.
I don't know about anyone else but I'd have rather they'd spent that 12 years (and all that wasted cash) on actually looking afer our interests!
Election please, without delay.
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yellowbelly1959 >>
Sorry mate. I have an independent mind and have just come across these blogs so am a newbie.
This is still a non-story. Why doesn't the opposition just admit that this is a banal comment and move on. It would give them more credibility. This is why Vince C has a good reputation.
What should be talked about is the endless contradictions we get from our current government.
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193
Thank you for the link to your reference some [eminent economists]
what do I see two young men wet behind the ears with little lived experience grinning like Cheshire cats trying to make a name for themselves selling their model of {uncertainty measures} as a predictor of growth and recession validated by the fact that this was predicting the recession back in June 2008 [hocus pocus ] so were millions of others. Just look at their own graph where the balance of certainty is. It is not there
Yet again a statistical set that proves statistics devised by mankind will always come up with if your heads in the oven and your feet are in the fridge on average you are comfortable.
I suggest these guys go get some real experience or just stick around and watch for a few years
I was predicting the recession back in 2007 so were many others, just by living and working in the real business world for over 50 years now that’s experience as I have always said if you want to now what the weather is going to do locally ask a farmer or a fisherman not Michael Fish the knowledge is always with those who live with the consequences of the climate not by analysing it
I don’t want a recession I don’t want to lambaste our political and fiscal leaders I want to trust all the members of our society to be just.
After all I would love to see the green shoot and talk of our cup flowing over rather than doom and gloom, when I was ten years old I would do so but my eyes have seen much and sorry people in the main you are a bitter disappointment to each other.
For we have to find a way forward that gives genuine hope to the world majority not an elite minority before I and I suspect many more stop criticizing the self serving egocentric who dominate our Political and academic world and are paid homage to by those whose nature is to take the crumbs rather than plant the wheat or bake the bread..
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This entire episode just proves the point that technocrat advisers should be kept in the back room and not given peerages so they can play at politics.
The only people who should be making statements for the government are elected representatives who the public can hold to account at an election.
The House of Lords should be an wholly elected chamber as a matter of principle. The ensuing contradiction within the body politic will have to be worked through. This might give us the benefit of better government and more balanced decision making.
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I notice that YOU are quick to remind people of the last recession in typical NULab style.
What really worries me is the growing number of unelected ministers in Crash Gordon's cabinet - disgraced former MPs like Mandy and Brown's personal poodles like this woman.
I thought we were supposed to elect our representatives.
As for 'green shoots', try telling that to the several potential business customers of mine who are struggling to get funding and even worse the 5 lads I had to make redundant in December because so many good companies cannot source the money to buy our product. We're not JCB and we wouldn't rate a media mention if we folded but it is a distinct possibility that we won't be here in the Spring.
Shame on you and your pal Crick for failing to condemn the worst government in living memory.
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#36
said they are getting fed up with the media's constant attention to the current poor economic climate. They are not reading newspapers. They are turning off the news on the TV and the Radio.
Oh yeah. Labour would love that.
Ner, ner, ner ,ner ,ner. I'm not liiiisteening. You caaaan't make me
It perfectly mirrors government policy this past decade. Don't listen to any criticism. Hear no evil (unless it's about the Tories) , see no evil (unless it's by the Tories) , speak no evil (except when you're referring to the Tories.
Carry on regardless. Destroy the economy. Blame somebody else.
As it is I think the media, staffed as it is, by economically incompetent 'journalists' are simply reflecting the mood of the nation when they're not busy uncritically reprinting No10 press releases.
They simply, like Joe Public, lack the simple understanding required to realise just how badly screwed up the UK economy is. Ooooh, look at me, I'm a journalist. 'A' Levels in history, English and media studies. Not a clue about maths. Not a clue about economics. Not a clue about just how badly screwed the UK economy is because their 'journalist training' didn't require them to be able to do the simplest of maths.
This economy is stuffed. We are in the end-game. The yanks are literally printing money. So are we. Stuff deflation, inflation is going to go mental in the coming 12-18 months as all this printed cash floods through the economy. Savers are going to get wiped out. Pensioners are going to get wiped out. The currency is going to get wiped out. There is no plan in place to deal with the consequences of this economic destruction it is simply all they can think of to try and see them to the next election.
The troops aren't coming home from Iraq because it's 'mission accomplished'. They're coming home to keep order on the streets.
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119. At 9:36pm on 14 Jan 2009, glanafon
Agreed, wouldn't buy a car from either, but are they selling cars?
Until there is an option for "none of the above" then there will be little call from the politicians in Westminster to change their privileges.
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There are a lot of people who are posting saying it is a non-story.
Firstly, I agree, it's not really that interesting.
Secondly, there are a lot of people who very rarely or have never posted before, posting to say this. That is quite interesting in itself.
Thirdly, I'd suggest you look at people's history of posts to compare what they considered to be stories (you click on their name). That's quite interesting too.
Goodbye cruel blog. I just realised how much of my precious time you waste.
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I was delighted to hear someone being positive, even though it was very tentative. I am convinced that if the media were to start giving out some positive messages the optimism would help economic recovery. People may feel more confident about spending money and so aid the process of the upturn. I must add I do feel very sorry for those who have lost there jobs.
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Well there are green shoots in some places! People buying cheap property before it takes off again for instance.
I think it's another storm in a teacup but we are in a climate where each party jumps on the other for the slightest blip.
No, I haven't defected to the Labour party, far from it, just think it's a little unfair to big up this issue.
Still, it did detract a little from the emotive issue of Brown crashing on with the extra runway at Heathrow.
Hey ho.
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#189 Agree completely, they've been betrayed and need to be suitably honoured.
It's a shame that real issues such as these go ignored by so called "journalists" at the BBC.
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#80
Well anyway thought I'd help you out, Guess what, that fool Brown has only gone and got the German economy in ecactly the same mess.
If the German economy is in a mess then the blame lies with the German government.
If the US economy is in a mess then the blame lies with the American government.
If the UK economy is totally screwed, nailed to its perched, an ex-economy that has ceased to be then it is the fault of the UK government.
I do hope this helps your understanding of which government is responsible for which country. But if not feel free to re-read this post until the message sinks in.
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146. You are surely an authority of "when the sun rises" - you are posting on here in the wee small hours of the morning, Hatton, from Cyprus?
My suspicion, nay, belief, is that you are truly on another planet.
Ever wondered why 99% of bloggers here support the Conservatives, or least an alternative other than ZanuLabour?
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Although I am a vociferous opponent of Gordon Brown I tend to agree that this story has been blown out of all proportion. I don't think the lady meant to be insensitive and was probably unaware of Lamont's gaffe in the early 90's. There are far more important issues to be discussed on these blogs.
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There is an argument that says "talk up the economy and the economy will recover" - however when reality appears to show we are in deep do do this is as the young baroness has found is the present condition of opinion.
We all hope that the economy 'will' recover and history is on our side, but it is all a question of when?
I can't see any from of genuine recovery taking place until the hugely damaging credit bubble has been deflated. For this to happen money most become valuable again. While money is still worthless we have very little hope of re-establishing a sound economy.
At the risk of being considered boring this is my mantra. see "money must be made valuable again".
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#93 Eatonrifle
Unfortunately, they don't recognise the hypocricy of accusing other of "trolling" (I think they call it) despite the fact that the Tory support on here is about 5 times their level of support (proportionately) in the polls - strange that.
But the anti-government contributors here are trying to over-come not a 5-1 count in favour of hanging Gordon Brown but the 1000-1 advantage that a blatantly government compliant BBC gives the Labour government.
If the BBC didn't exist the opinion polls would be showing the Labour party somewhere south of the BNP at the moment. It is simply pro-government propaganda beamed into everybodies homes 24-7 that maintains them at a still risible 33%.
Imagine if the BBC were on the Tories 'side' and beaming in facts and editorial about what an absolute catastrophe Brown had made over the past 10 years rather than giving Brown and his stooges air-time to come out with their vacuous 'do nothing' jibes and their meaningless 'right thing to do flim-flam'.
And even in the teeth of this maelstrom of misinformation they are still only fooling 1 in 3 of the electorate.
The BBC will really have to up their game if they're to survive because Cameron and the Tories will not easily forgive the easy ride they (the BBC) have given Brown this recession/depression.
I'm old enough to remember the outright hostility of the BBC towards the Major government towards the end. I also remember being not much bothered since I too was glad to see the back of the Tories at that point. But Blair/Brown have achieved what I thought impossible in 1997. They are even more incompetent than John Major's government.
And not by a little bit. They are in a league of their own.
They are the Phil Taylor's of incompetence. The Christiano Ronaldo's of idiocy. The Jeffrey Archers' of liars.
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"I wish the conservatives would keep quiet for 6 months instead of talking down the economy."
I wish EVERYONE would STOP talking down the economy. The alarmists in the Government are saying it is the worst financial shock in history, (to blame everyone else) the tories are trying to make political capitol out of it and the media are hyping it for every headline they can get and competing to see who can report the most dire outcomes. It is cruel and immoral to be reporting success stories as failures. There is more than enough doom and gloom out there as it is, we do not need increased sales figures and thousands of extra jobs being created (as was by Tesco) to be reported as a failure. By all means accurately report what is happening, warts 'n' all, but let's have some accurate balance please too.
Anyone who has seen my previous posts will understand how much I despise the labour maladministration, but even I want to see the economy succeed. It is tempting to revel in the gloom as a way to hope that it will be the thing that rids us of this appalling administration in Downing Street. But people are suffering and we need this "downturn" to be over as soon as possible.
Can we ALL stop talking the economy down and start increasing confidence soon?
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Nic states Vadera is "the woman who is Gordon Brown's most important economic adviser "
Considering she is unelected and works for another unelected person Lord Mandy, is this a case of a government within a government?
If we accept this premise, is the growing and expensive army of unelected "experts" (another banker joined this week), part of the problem, rather than the solution?
And are they, like Digby Jones, to be put to the sword when things go wrong?
You couldn't make it up.
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What an absolute non-story.
Firstly journalists need to grow up - setting traps is playground stuff. Her answer was that she wouldn't want to predict it but there have been some green shoots (i.e. good news recently).
Are you arguing that there has not been any good news? Didn't the journalist say the words "green shoots" in his/her question and if so is he/she also guilty of using Lamont's phrase? Where was that story?
There has been some good news recently, but she wouldn't want to use that to predict the end of the recession. Really simple, honest, non-political and true.
What the hell is wrong with that? Is noone allowed to say 'green shoots' anymore? When I pick my nose, something green shoots from my nose - oh heck, I said it now too!
I really don't want to say this, but I have noticed it here and on Question Time. Asian politicians get a hell of a hard time from both the crowd and the so-called journalists. Pretty unforgivable Mr Robinson, I would say.
Unfortunately, Mr Robinson, your rants on subjects like this also make politicians stick to party lines and not answer questions honestly. If you want an honest, personal rather than political point of view, you need to stop hammering people when they do it.
Political big-hitters, you notice recently, will not answer a straight question anymore - we saw you fail at getting anything out of Osborne on Yachtgate and your colleague Paxman got absolutely annihilated by Heseltine on the same subject.
I hate politics for this exact reason - it is all traps, political lines and nobody doing what they think is best anymore. Plus it is a breeding ground for racism from journos always knocking down someone from an ethnic minority that has done well.
I do not think that this journalist would have asked the same question to a Brown, Cameron, Clarke or Darling - do you? And I wonder why not?
She is not a politician, she is an asian business woman that has triumphed in a white, male environment. I would say that is a cause for celebration.
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#167, #182 fairlyopenmind
Are you looking for a job in the New BBC?
Very balanced
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IS BROWN THE NEW DEREK HATTON??
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#221 RHINO44
Dead right what a waste of time this story is to blog on to.
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Quote: "Sneering at people who are simply getting on with creating and maintaining jobs is just contemptable."
I could not agree more! There are some tories on here that are taking an immoral amount of pleasure at the depth and length of the recession.
I was disgusted by the way that labour revelled in the 1990's recession. They took every single opportunity to kick confidence in the economy. They seemed to LOVE the bad news. They did not want to see recovery and would not even admit that there had been any up until the 1997 election. Some time after that, Gordon Brown then had the gall and cheek to use the phrase "consecutive quarters of growth" as a way of taking credit for 4 years of tory growth.
Labour's constant running down of the economy in the early-mid 1990's sickened me. ALL political parties aught to do whatever they can to talk UP the economy. My view on this has not changed.
Whilst I blame Brown as much as anyone for the depth of the mess we are in, we ALL should take a more moral path and work to end this recession.
Are you going to wait for Brown to do something effective to end this? Moaning and whining all the time about how appalling this labour government is? Then the recession will not end until after mid 2011 at the earliest.
We KNOW how appalling this government is, we CANNOT wait any longer, we must take action to get the economy moving and improve public confidence ourselves.
Ghandi said BE the change you want to see. So STOP whinging, moaning and do something about it.
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I think the comments about unelected Government ministers are missing some key points.
MPs are elected to represent their constituencies in parliament, too often they actually fail to do this precisely because they are in the govenrment and all Prime Ministers have put certain MPs in the government to keep them quiet and vote the right way.
I have no problem with the PM appointing people from outside politics into the government because the rest of his cabinet have proved to be pretty inept over the last 10 years.
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"I'm surprised how no-one has picked up on todays PMQ's, Wow! did GB lay DC out cold
the little novice was sparkeld....OUTCOLD!
"
Derek you watched a totally different PMQ's to me then, In the one I saw Brown had to revert to blatant lies about how much a "typical family" will save due to the VAT reduction. The figure he gave was complete fantasy.
Derek, Are YOU spending 250+ pounds a week on VATable items??? I am not. I am not even spending one eighth of that and my wife and I have reasonable salaries.
Cameron thrashed Brown completely by killing off the do nothing party idea as labour have to steal policies from this so-called do nothing party and the description of labour as the "achieve nothing" party should be a very effective sound-bite that sticks for a long time.
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Looks like Miliband has returned from the butchers with his new sharpened back stabbing knives.
And so the posturing is starts again.
The article on BBC New Reads
The foreign secretary wrote that since 9/11 the phrase "war on terror" had "defined the terrain" when it came to tackling terrorism and that although it had merit, "ultimately, the notion is misleading and mistaken".
Oh really? And who apart from the government didn't know that?
It goes on.
Mr Miliband wrote that the phrase was all-encompassing and "gave the impression of a unified, transnational enemy, embodied in the figure of Osama Bin Laden and al-Qaeda" when the situation was far more complex.
Al-Qaeda or Alki Eda as the PM calls them, are not an organisation, just a rallying brand for random idiots to nail their colours too. You cannot fight something like that through conventional means. You end up doing what the Germans did in Belgium in 1914 in Dinant.
What is clear is our government has done in this episode what it has always done, acted with knee jerk rapidity, and recklessness. As the cost of innocent lives, money and equipment, not to mention a once international reputation that may now be irrevocably damaged, certainly in the Middle East (They are now looking to remove Blair, as he is not performing....really???....)
Miliband Goes on
"Historians will judge whether [the notion] has done more harm than good", he said.
You've got that straight kid, most of us already have!
It's time to realise that we along with the Americans have been led by the nose by people who clearly do not know what they are doing. Lucky for them the have had a change.
It must be our turn next!
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Brown QUOTE
"We are VIGILANT in EVERY RESPECT
about the ECONOMY,NEVER
COMPLACENT"
Clearly deluded.
COMPLACENCY WAS THE REASON AND
THE CAUSE!!
WAKE UP GORDY?
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doctordisraeli wrote:
I note that Mark_WE thinks that anyone taking time to report here on an improving order book is in the pay of the Labour Party and not really in business.
I assure you that I am in business. The VAT reduction coupled with the falling value of the pound against the dollar and other currencies is working well for us. What is damaging to business at the moment is the constantly fuelled fear- factor in the domestic market.
You are new on here and if you weren't you will have seen that everytime the government announces something new you get a rash of new posters who are amazingly so much better off because of the government's new proposal.
My dad also runs a business - has the VAT reduction helped him? No, quite the opposite, as part of his business involves driving he loses money (fuel duty went up to cover the drop in VAT - but a business can't claim fuel duty back!)
If you are getting more orders from Europe it is because our currency is tanking against the Euro - now if this was considered a good thing the Government would be proudly shouting it from the roof tops - oddly enough it isn't being mentioned.
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I am in no position to comment on the state of the economy which no doubt is in a pretty bad way, made worse by all the negativity engendered by all those who comment on it. When I heard Baroness Vadera’s positive, albeit very cautious, “green shoots” comment, my heart leapt, at last someone was beginning to think positively. Frankly, I was shocked and disappointed by George Osborne’s immediately condemnation which made my heart sink. Reflecting on my personal reaction, I recalled the “Law of Attraction”. We get what we think whether positive or negative.
The government has made £billions available to the financial sector but it still lacks confidence which is exacerbating the problem. The current situation is partly a crisis of confidence and the jobs losses are flowing from businesses closing because people are saving rather than spending in case things get worse.
Positive messages from those in power would help build confidence which together with the positive practical measures already in place would lead to economic recovery, perhaps more quickly. I suggest that if we all thought positively and believed in good outcomes we would see a change for the better. At the very least it would not be any worse.
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The green shoots story is a non-story. Move on.
I am interested to know whether the loan guarantee scheme will allow the Government to direct loans to firms based in labour marginals. I see that loans for working capital are submitted by the banks to the Department for Business, Enterprise & Regulatory Reform for approval. At that point I assume that loans to companies in Conservative-voting areas could be refused. This, of course, is the problem with nationalisation: the government of the day can use its controlling interest for party political advantage (I remember Harold Wilson playing this card before a crucial by-election).
Should I be concerned? Or will Labour play fairly?
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I think BBC TV News has been unfair to the Minister in NOT showing the full ITN clip. Radio 4 PM did braodcast the part with ITN interviewer asking the question about 'green shoots' - the Minster was just responding to this!!
Are you showing bias towards the oposition???
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This lady was clearly talking about something highly specific in the finance background, where apparently she's an expert. Having read recently that bond/gilt (whatever) market was in trouble and therefore countries would find it difficult to raise capital for their fiscal stimuli, if that market isn't as tight as some are making out or if it is starting to ease and will make raising capital easier then she's right to try and point this out in some way.
I'm consersavative with a small 'c' and I want the Tories to counter Labour spin, lies, and failing policies more than anything, but they do us no favours jumping on this particular band wagon. Who cares if Lamont got savaged in 91?. She's clearly no orator, but in a way I found that refreshing. Even being close to Mandy, she isn't a spin troll. She wasn't "doing stuff for small business and hard working families", she wasn't "doing the right thing", she wasn't bleating "Do nothing". There's a chance that she is a fanancial expert working hard to help us through this mess. She was one of the more credible spokes people labour have put forward recently.
Just as you have to look behind the polish of every other Labour person to see what they are really saying or guess at what they are not telling you, I looked past the lack of polish and listened to what she said in the context that she said it and found it credible. Atacking what she said or the way she said it is polliticking.
At the same time, in PMQs, DC did not denounce the "Do nothing" mantra as spin and allowed GB to denouce the Tory version of the policy he was stealing as uncosted, and not have to explain where the £10B/£20B he was going to call on was coming from.
On balance I thought the Tories won the polliticking yesterday, but it was grubby, ugly and lose-lose as far as the electorate is concerned. They still allowed spin to deflect proper debate on policy, any policy. He wasted a question trying to get GB to admit that Boom/bust had not been eradicated. Who cares. His next question should have been his first - The predictions in the PBR are clearly fantasy. Everything Labour is doing now is based on this false premise. Focus on the havoc Labour is wreaking today and don't waste a second on past comments. Emergency debate on the real figures. Full disclosure. Sense of urgency. All MP holidays cancelled, Parliament in permanent session until they collectively come up with something sensible.
Small businesses that get so much thought, apparently, will be working harder for less. It's about time our MPs set an example.
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For the minus 2 pence that it's worth:
I agree that the Vadera green shoots comment is blown out of proportion but when Mr Robinson decideded to blog about it he should have:
-mentioned Baroness Vadera's Rail-Track-shareholders-granny gaffe and not just reminded us of Lamont's slip. Now he's certainly inviting biasedness allegations;
-put in a cheeky question/comment about whether the green shoots were originating from the US since Brown and Mandy continuously claim that it's all the US's fault.
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Seems to me that there is often an inherent contradiction between 'economic growth' and 'being green'.
For example, the car industry is having problems at the present moment because people are not buying new (or even secondhand) cars.
It takes a lot of resources to make a new vehicle so if a consumer purchases a new car and runs it into the ground over say the next fifteen years then some would argue that that is a more efficient allocation of the resources and that the vehicle manufacturers should adjust to that reality, rather than attempting to get customers to 'churn' their vehicle every few years.
On a slightly different note, we are hearing a lot about 'toxic assets' at the moment, which often means sub-prime mortgages but can be other 'assets' such as derivatives.
I would merely point out with respect to mortgages that this is a dynamic, in that it is quite possible, especially in the current economic climate, for what are currently 'prime' mortgages to become 'sub-prime'.
This can easily happen if for example, property prices slide drastically, as they have been, and/or the mortgagee loses his/her job.
Of course, the reverse is also true, a sub-prime mortgage could (in theory) become prime if property prices accelerated (which appears to have been the rationale behind the so-called NINJA loans).
So if the Government (in reality the hapless PAYE taxpayer) is going to get into the business of buying up 'toxic' assets then it might have to 'create' more money that it may have envisioned, in the current circumstances.
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I agree about the need to hire "experts" to help the government, but I'd like to echo the comment of why we have to elevate them to the Lords to do so.
How would government ordinarily pay for these people?
Then there is nothing yet on the BBC about Digby Jones in front of the committee decrying the efforts of civil servants. Perfect opportunity to save all tax payers some money.
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Ha ha, Carrots...that's very funny.
Quite remarkable that newlabour think it's all about engaging. Clearly policy has decided to take a back seat to presentation.
Good luck with that strategy at a forthcoming general election. Anyone can sit on the telly looking interesting and engaging. What people will vote for is 'change'.
Change of policy, change of leader, change of government. change of direction.
In the words of a soon to be ex-Prime minister "let the work of change begin"
Call an election.
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I am glad that no-one has had the gall to even attempt to claim that I am a dolly draper acolyte.
The most positive thing that could happen to end the recession is an election, but it looks like Brown has his ugly finger-nails (or what is left of them) buried deep into the leather on the front bench for the next 16 months, so what can the tory contributers bring to this situation besides more well deserved criticism of this appaling government?
I am not talking about the Parliamentary conservative MP's here, but the people blogging in this site who oppose the Government and particularly those who are more likely to support the tories.
I thought Tories (the people in the country) were supposed to be inventive, positive, creative and the type of reliable, responsible self-starters that do not rely on an overburdened, inefficient state?
So, what are YOU all going to do to help this country NOW?
This appalling labour maladministration is achieving NOTHING. The achieve nothing party will not save us, so what are we all going to actually DO?
Talking the economy down further than it already is is not doing anyone a service.
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Now for minus 3 pence of value added:
The Guardian's leader today argues that the government should consider full nationalisation if lending does not reach levels that the government find satisfactory (be aware that banks are still lending at higher levels than in 2007, as reported yesterday on the BBC site, much to the regret of the government who portray the banks as villains). And the Guardian yesterday also blogged about forgiving debt.
Mr Robinson, can you and super-leaked-comments-receiver Peston enlight us on these issues? Thanks.
By the way Mr Robinson, why haven't you blogged here about the fact that Mr Peston hasn't been arrested yet to investigate how he gets all that leaked info and who his mole might be? It can't be that it suits the government to leak info and gage the public's reaction before the ultimate policy gets decided? This government would obviously play things above board all the time, right?
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jovialjagger77 wrote:
@yellowbelly1959
Why does anyone simply praising labour automatically qualify them as dolly draper? Its quite sad that you spend your time endlessly accusing people. Funnily enough labour supporters DO exist - and theres quite a lot, actually.
New posters who come in and blindly go on about how brilliant a party are and how there great ideas have saved them millions are going to be called out as trolls.
I think if most Labour supporters are being honest to themselves they will admit that things are not great at the moment and New Labour have to take their hits for that.
Those who just come out here and "big up" the Labour policies are going to be seen as professional Labour bloggers and remember that senior Labour ministers have been caught out getting their friends and family to back them in local papers!
Since the announcement of the plan to provide loans to help small and medium businesses we have had a number of new posters (all claiming to be buisness owners) going on about how great Labour's idea is
This is such a non story anyway. So just stop being silly.
I actually agree with you, she was fed the line and she took it as there are a few positive signs in the economy but on the whole things are pretty bleak.
It seems a bit weak to call it a gaffe or to make too much of it - and if that is the most exciting thing that happened today it is a small news day!
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djlazarus and StrongholdBarricades
Thanks for the kind words.
I'm afraid I can slip into rant mode, when something really gets to me, like the rest of humanity I hope...
I quite enjoyed Evan Davis' TV slot last evening, examining the origins of the cerdit crisis. Bit simplistic, but it was interesting to hear the scathing comments about the ineptitude of regulators on both sides of the Atlantic.
I've taken a pop at the burden of poorly thought through legislation and regulation on several occasions.
If regulators can't exercise decent control over the big things, how on earth do government expect individuals, businesses, local councils, etc to keep on top of the mass of new stuff (mostly minutiae) pouring out every day?
Why do governments they keep doing it?
Gets me back to another bleat...
Passing laws or introducing regulations does NOT deliver solutions.
At best it provides a psychological framework. At worst, it means that more and more people are employed in checking whether regulations are being followed and intervening in other's lives. Are we supposed to accept that as being the most productive use of a nation's resources?
I'm in favour of social protection for those who need a bit of help. But not happy with the interventionist social engineering that seems to be the latest fad.
I see lots of people trying hard to make things and deliver services.
I'd like to see "inverse productivity" in Parliament. In other words, if you as MPs and Ministers absolutely have to pass a law (meaning local stuff, or the approval of EU regulation), then all of you who vote have to read and understand the consequences of every line in every bill.
Then the rest of us would have far less to worry about...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The reaction to these comments epitimises all that is wrong with political commentary - there are real issues of dispute between the political parties on how to tackle the recession, and on many other issues, but what happens is that the media concentrate on a supposed gaff from a junior minister who is not even famous in her own household.
The media castigate politicians for not being straight and clear in what they say, and then jump on this.
There are many important political matters that need the expertise of political analyists to help the public understand - this is not one of them and shows why political commentary seems to concentrate on the super in superficial.
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Perhaps the green shoots are from poison ivy. Like this government that tends to cause a rash on anything it comes into contact with, and that contact can sometimes be fatal. It also tends to cling and is difficult to get rid of.
As for the BBC only reporting bad news, if the news is bad shouldn't the media tell the truth? Also, if anyone thinks jobs in shops will improve our economic position, they are deluding themselves.
And, when I watched the repeat of PMQs last evening, my impression of was that Brown was dreadful. He is like an old 78 record with the needle stuck in the groove - repeating the same thing over and over again. When anyone challenges his record he turns aggressive and looks stressed. When Labour stool-pigeons ask a planted question he goes all coy and nice. Most importantly, he is incapable of answering a question. What was it Campbell said about a flawed personality?
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Still no comments about Digby Jones' at the select committee
Sounds like he wanted to cut a few civil servants. Is that why Brown found a new "Lord" for the job?
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I agree that this story is a bit of non-starter, though the Baroness was a bit naïve for falling for the planted question. To be honest I had not even heard of this lady until yesterday and to find another non-elected person is a minister is a tad annoying. I understand that government ministers don’t need to be MPs, but this is the party that stated it wanted in part to abolish the House of Lords. I think Labour would have had a field day if a Tory government had placed lords, especially crony ones just elevated to the peerage as ministers.
It is a shame that the Conservatives cannot make more of an issue about this, maybe the Libs could raise the matter.
I am sure that there are companies, other than receivers and bailiffs that are doing well in the current climate. It is telling though that the big companies doing well are not as greatly affected by the VAT decrease as those that are failing. I remain unconvinced that the VAT decrease was anything other than an expensive piece of showboating. If my worries are proven correct that the raised duties on petrol, tobacco and alcohol do not return to their old levels when the VAT goes back up, it will really be an expensive piece of showboating. Maybe the Tory’s could get assurances that all the tax levels affected in the PBR will return to their old levels, though I suspect Brown won’t answer that one.
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Wow lots of comments from first-time users!
What a surprise. Is this to coincide with Draper's new website?
I wonder....have they borrowed the Megaphone forum trolling software from GIYUS (Give Israel Your United Support) - google it.
Mind you, birds of feather flock together....
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#246
Fairlyopen.. did you really think that about the Evan Davies show last night?
it's one thing to take a pop at the regulators; it's quite another when the CFO of northern rock looks sincerely to camera and says he had no choice but to borrow money in the wholesale markets...
What?
No choice but to leverage your balance sheet to 90x?
Absurd 'not me, gov' newlabour inspired behaviour.
It was the culture of no-one is to blame that has messed up this country and which prevades the newlabour party; they still think they are not to blame and they need to go.
Take responsibiity for your actions.
Call an election.
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Firstly- I don't usually agree with this level of spin for such a small slip-up, but as someone else said- live by the sword, die by the sword! Anyway, is she not intelligent enough to make up a reply without using the words used in the question? I mean, if she was asked a question about 'recession', I bet she may have found a different word to use in her answer.
Secondly- the new jobs people are mentioning aren't green shoots of recovery. Say Greggs opened up new shops- that isn't a sign of recovery, that's a sign that they are profiting from people downscaling what they spend on eating out. It's from the loss of more expensive trade. These aren't companies recovering, they are merely profitting from a greater loss from another company- overall, a loss!
Lastly- will Brown fans stop claiming that Tories 'do-nothing' and GB is saving us. He is using Tory ideas at present, in a wtaered down form. 'His' banking recue plan wasn't even his own!
What we need is a rise in the starting amount eligible for income tax. What is the point in paying it from ~6k if you need about 13k to live properly? Simplify the tax system!
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Nick,
This is a complete non-story and only of interest to Westminster anoraks. I bet not 1 person in 1000 could have correctly identified Baroness Vadera let alone give 2 figs for her opinion.
Where's your blog on the much more important comments of Digby Jones?
or GB's decision to proceed with the Heathrow expansion?
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252. DialSquareDomination
Well head over to labourlist.org and tell him what you think.
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"Wow lots of comments from first-time users!
What a surprise. Is this to coincide with Draper's new website?
I wonder....have they borrowed the Megaphone forum trolling software from GIYUS (Give Israel Your United Support) - google it.
Mind you, birds of feather flock together...."
LOL! If you are correct, then this derek draper thing is the same as what the Conservatives have been doing for a long time. Take an impartial look at this board does it look like its full of real people? Maybe these comments were 1 sided grass roots campaigning Tory Rubbish and now its just rubbish! I'd settle for that. As long as its balanced rubbish that's fine!
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The real scandal here is that she is a minister at all. Today I read that Mervyn Davies is to be given a peerage and made a minister in the same department, so we will now have three ministers in the Department for Business - Mandelson, Vadera and Davies - none of whom has been elected, making crucial decisions at this time when our economy is in serious danger of total meltdown, and not one of them is accountable to the public at the polling booth. What an outrage! The country is being run like a private club where the old boy's network ensures that the leader's friends are given power and priviledge without the inconvenience of getting public approval.
The time has come to change the rules so that anyone holding ministerial office has to be an elected MP, or we cease to call ourselves a democracy.
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Re Digby Jones Select Commitee ETC
For ONCE I AGREE WITH DIGBY
FROM MY DEALINGS WITH THE CIVIL
SERVICE A 60% CULL WOULD BE IN
ORDER.
I did a RSA grant application for
manufacturing jobs: FULL ON
NEGATIVITY FROM THE OUTSET!!
THATS WHY I EMPLOY 5500 plus
in China Poland & Czech Republic.
IN EVERY OTHER COUNTRY THE
AUTHORITIES WORK WITH JOB
CREATORS. . .
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rhino@221
"I really don't want to say this, but I have noticed it here and on Question Time. Asian politicians get a hell of a hard time from both the crowd and the so-called journalists."
So why, exactly, have you done so?
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203. At 09:13am on 15 Jan 2009, djlazarus wrote:
#167, #182 fairlyopenmind
Great posts - you still remain by far the most balanced and sensible contributer to this blog, and that includes Nick Robinson :)
-----
Interesting.
I must have strayed too far in posting 182.
It has now been referred to the moderators.
There must have been something about Ms Harman that was over the top. If it offended someone out there, my apologies.
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Well done BBC, yet more bad news. Even the prospect of good news is bad news. Baroness Vedera is a smart woman. If she has seen green shoots then why oh why don't you explain what those green shoots are. It's your job to first report the news, then explain it, then comment. You seem once again to have jumped straight to commenting.
It's about time you lot stopped talking the economy down, that way it may not go as deep as it will if you continue as you are.
The USA talk thenmselves up, which is one of the reasons why they will come out of this earlier and stronger.
Come on BBC act like growns ups please
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Well done Gordon Brown!
Over TEN YEARS of dithering about whether what to do about replacing UK's crumbling nuclear reactors (and for some of them it is actually that) has led to this
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7829478.stm
An Aluminium plant will close in September 2009 as the nearby nuclear plant is to close in 2010 and there no alternative sources of energy that would meet their needs.
Clear evidence that Strategic Thinking doe NOT take place in central government, or is that any thinking at all? 500 jobs to go, but they are in manufacturing so maybe they do not count.. Sickening really.
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The Nu-Labour nuanced BBC has gone even further now on orders from their masters....
According to Evan Davis, David BOWIE is responsible for the credit crisis.
Can you believe it? Whatever next....
Read his article in the Mirror.
Bowie? Maybe....
Brown? Never, it wasn't his fault gov, started in America, global crisis, best placed to deal with it.......
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Ok, first time poster, and I know I run the risk of being shot down by one poltical faction or the other here.
For some context, I live and my business is located in a non labour seat, and to be honest, there is more chance of pigs flying than labour getting in there at the next election.
However, to keep my business going I have had to join 2 of these so called 'Business Networking clubs'. Of the 45 or so businesses that I have so far met, not one is expanding, is looking forwards to this year, is looking to recruit or has benefitted anyway from the VAT change or the current policies.
None have admitted either that they might go to the wall.
All this has come up in conversation with these people as I am trying to find out if they can benefit my company (IT sales and software development) or if I can help theirs.
As much as I want things to improve, and current policies to fix these issues, they havent and I cant see that they will.
Maybe the only green shoots are those of grasses growing up through the tarmac of the JCB / Landrover / Wedgewoon / etc staff carparks..
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Ok, first time poster, and I know I run the risk of being shot down by one poltical faction or the other here.
For some context, I live and my business is located in a non labour seat, and to be honest, there is more chance of pigs flying than labour getting in there at the next election.
However, to keep my business going I have had to join 2 of these so called 'Business Networking clubs'. Of the 45 or so businesses that I have so far met, not one is expanding, is looking forwards to this year, is looking to recruit or has benefitted anyway from the VAT change or the current policies.
None have admitted either that they might go to the wall.
All this has come up in conversation with these people as I am trying to find out if they can benefit my company (IT sales and software development) or if I can help theirs.
As much as I want things to improve, and current policies to fix these issues, they havent and I cant see that they will.
Maybe the only green shoots are those of grasses growing up through the tarmac of the JCB / Landrover / Wedgewood / etc staff carparks..
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254. At 11:56am on 15 Jan 2009, RobinJD wrote:
#246
Fairlyopen.. did you really think that about the Evan Davies show last night?
it's one thing to take a pop at the regulators; it's quite another when the CFO of northern rock looks sincerely to camera and says he had no choice but to borrow money in the wholesale markets...
What?
-----
Robin, I totally believe that bankers were idiots.
Lehman was led into peril by a guy who claimed he hadn't realised how exposed they were (while picking up USD300Mil over a few years for his invaluable services...)
Northern Rock's CEO was a complete prat to lead a solid company out onto a tightrope. He's gone, quite rightly.
Institutional shareholders should have been a bit more interested in how on earth a fairly small company should grow to such a large provider of UK mortgages.
But the FSA admitted they were aware that NR was very, very exposed by virtue of their business model. But they chose to do nothing.
So I do feel that both the perpetrators and the regulators let down shareholders, staff and customers...
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#257 "I bet not 1 person in 1000 could have correctly identified Baroness Vadera let alone give 2 figs for her opinion."
Isn't that half the problem? She has a very senior role in the policy making of this country, and yet not 0.1% of people can identify her?
Call an ELECTION (you know, where we vote for those in power, and do not have to suffer the twice, possibly soon thrice, disgraced Mandelson and his ilk).
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
RE 273
Or was it a Bankers BONUS sham??
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There are more than usual the number of dumb posts on this thread.
Most seem to be leaping to the defence of Baroness Vadera whose remarks indicate that the government is reduced to grasping at straws. The lady is by all accounts well able to look out for herself.
No doubt the client-base is getting frightened that their meal-ticket will be cancelled.
To those who are hooting about Tory posters I have to tell you that at the next election I will be voting Tory unless a coalition government is formed in the interim.
For me voting Tory will be a new experience but this government has revealed itself to be so utterly incompetent and so completely destructive to the country that we just have to get rid of it and start again free from the stale failure that is exuded by Brown and his useless chums.
I hope any general election result will be a hung parliament leading directly to a coalition government. We need to rebuild our country from the bottom up and for that we need a new consensus.
If Labour wish to be part of that consensus then I suggest they could avoid an election by dumping Brown now and start talks with the two main opposition parties to form a government which will truly reflect all the talents.
This is the time politics has to be about the country and not the individual.
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260. At 12:16pm on 15 Jan 2009, MalcolmW2 wrote:
The real scandal here is that she is a minister at all. Today I read that Mervyn Davies is to be given a peerage and made a minister in the same department, so we will now have three ministers in the Department for Business - Mandelson, Vadera and Davies - none of whom has been elected, making crucial decisions at this time when our economy is in serious danger of total meltdown, and not one of them is accountable to the public at the polling booth. What an outrage!
===
I agree completely. The further scandal is that they are not accountable to Parliament either. There is no opportunity to cross-examine their policies in The Commons.
Also, it is a disgrace that more and more policy announcements are being made at press conferences or by leaks.
The loan guarantee scheme was launched at a press conference, and the Heathrow 3rd runway decision was leaked to the BBC last night.
It is hypocrisy of the highest order that a so-called Socialist government should ride roughshod through the proper democratic process like this.
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does anyone else find it odd that Crash attempts to claim the 'support' of Lamont now, but wouldn't "pass water" on him were he on fire for the previous 20 years?
The hypocracy is galling.
In addition, the whole £5 per week he claims, amounts to a required spending of ~£240 per week on VATable items based on the pre cut rate of 17.5%. Or £12K per year, after tax, on stuff which isn't mortgage, food etc etc.
Lets say your mortgage were £800 per month, and food £100 per week. That means that you would need to earn £46K per year before tax, and be blowing it all every year to make the savings Crash claims, slightly above the National Statistics median of 27K.
Another day, another set of lies
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dhwilkinson wrote:
LOL! If you are correct, then this derek draper thing is the same as what the Conservatives have been doing for a long time. Take an impartial look at this board does it look like its full of real people?
There are some people on this board that I wouldn't be surprised if they turned out to be working for the Conservative party - just as there are long established people on this board that I expect work for Labour (or are certainly Labour members)
The big difference is the brand new posters, who suddenly appear after a party announcement to say how great it is and how they are going to benefit - currently these comments seem to be very one sided towards Labour.
How many first time posters this week have claimed to be running a small business that is doing brilliantly in Europe due to the VAT cut or will be making use of Gordon's loan deal to expand their empires further?
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It's not what she said that was so wrong but the way she had a condescending smirk as she said it.
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From My experience with our upper end
uncivil service at the Department of
Business manufacturing jobs are
viewed with UTTER CONTEMPT.
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#83 LOL!
The old ones are the best ones.
If Brown cares for the country then he will hold an election now and give someone (it could be him) a long term option to resolve this crisis.
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267. At 12:35pm on 15 Jan 2009, WhoPinchedMyName wrote:
Ok, first time poster, and I know I run the risk of being shot down by one poltical faction or the other here.
===
Don't worry whopinched.... it is easy to spot a Labout troll a mile off.
Unfortunately it is typical of this Government that they can't do "joined-up" Government.
3 examples: Introduce higher VED charges, backdated, to punish the owners of "gaz-guzzling" 4x4s and luxury cars. THEN,
bail out Jaguar Land Rover when they get into trouble because they can't sell their "gas-guzzling" 4x4s and luxury cars.
Announce plans to bring forward Government spending on capital projects to keep people in work, THEN
delay the building of 2 new aircraft carriers for 2 years.
Bring in "green taxes" on airline flights because of the damage commercial jets supposedly do to the environment, THEN
announce the opening of a 3rd runway at Heathrow, building on green belt land and bulldozing a village in the process.
Hypocrites without a clue of how the real world works.
Good luck with your business, maybe Marrakesh Mandy might even buy it for us all!
;-)
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@252 and others, a brief statement:
Just because people are first time bloggers, does not infer troll like intentions.
Reading this blog underlines what a dirty game politics is, and how much dirtier is is likely to become in the run up to the next election. The petty name calling, posturing and selective quoting of 'facts' and statistics is for most people, pretty tiresome.
In these media saturated times, putting anyone other than an experienced operator in front of a clever interviewer is foolishness and complacency of the highest order, and is guaranteed to produce 'egg on face' moments like this. It should be said that I have so sympathy for the Baroness - she doesn't seem to be any better with her written words either.
Back in the real world, the daily grind goes on.
Some businesses may well be doing well, but I suspect it will be those exporting relatively low cost items to the eurozone, whose purchase does not need to be financed by credit. Manufacturers of industrial and construction equipment, vehicles etc have seen demand fall through the floor. Most of these items are financed on credit - hence the reason why even sucessful companies like JCB have suffered a collapse in demand for their products.
The company I work for sells components into the industrial markets, and we saw a marked slow down in activity in the second half of the year, and we don't expect the situation to improve until the second half of 2010 at the earliest.
One area we do see an increase in workload, is in product improvement and new product development activities. In any recession the smarter companies re- deploy their manpower in this way. It is the results of this kind of activity, together with the return of business loans that will provide the so called green shoots.
Economically things may be dire, but I refuse to be drawn into this collective depressive mentality that is pedalled by all sections of the media, and will be losing no sleep over events which I cannot control.
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A government of all the talents!!
Mandelson isn't fit to run a bath - let alone a government department.
Presumably he recruits even worse dummies to make him look good. Hence why teh good baroness got her job?
Gordon daren't sack anybody - because he doesn't want to end up like Julius Caesar.
Oh for a TARDIS so that we can fast forward to 2010 and dump this government.
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#263 fairlyopenmind
I'm saddened but unfortunately not surprised. With the NuLabour stazi are trying so hard to gain control of the blogosphere it suggests they must be really scared. I've read some of Dolly Draper's sparring with Obnoxio and Guido and it definitely looks as though freedom of speech isn't particularly high on government priorities!
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"[i]She was asked on ITV's Lunchtime News whether she saw "green shoots" and being the consummate "backroom girl" that she is and not a frontline politician she did not spot the trap.[/i]"
Surely the real story here is why the BBC are misleading the public by implying that she was the first one to use this phrase.
I've seen/heard this reported on by the BBC over and over again but when you play the clip, you never include the interviewer using the phrase in his question.
You then spend another few minutes talking about how disgraceful it is but on only one report have I seen you play a clip of her explaining that the phrase was used in the question she was asked.
If ITV planted a trap, the BBC are the guys who jump out when the trap get's sprung to point and laugh and shout, "Look at the stupid snared animal. What's the matter, haven't you evolved opposable thumbs yet?"
What's next, Andrew Marr rick-rolling Cameron?
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Perhaps SHE meant the Pink DAFFS
In Mandys 2 mill plus GARDEN????
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#228 MaidstoneRichard wrote:
"I have no problem with the PM appointing people from outside politics into the government because the rest of his cabinet have proved to be pretty inept over the last 10 years."
I agree with your last point - it is only too true - but it does not justify the appointment of unelected "friends" to ministerial posts.
The whole point of a democracy is that those holding high office should be answerable to the electorate.
(Part of that process is that we expect them to be held to account, on our behalf, by serious journalists - not to have those very journalists briefing on behalf of those office holders to us).
In the past, governments often managed to "parachute" certain "friends" into safe seats (which is how I once ended up having the appalling Steve Norris as my local MP - someone I have would voted for the proverbial "pig's head on a stick" to remove).
Nowadays, in the light of the "reform" of the Upper Chamber, Governments can even parachute in those who may not even have been electable in their safest seats:
"The Sunday Times reported that the Cabinet Secretary "flatly refus[ed] to allow her to cross the threshold of No 10 as policy enforcer" and "no Permanent Secretary could stand her".
(Except from the Wikipaedia entry for Shriti Vadera upon her elevation).
What this amusing aside teaches us is that we need to be looking beneath the shoots to the roots.
Oh for a modern John the Baptist that can announce "the axe is laid to the root"!
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#275
Good point stanilic.
Brown hungered after Blair's job for so long that he is intent to keep it at all costs - even if it means he breaks this country.
If he had an ounce of honour, Brown would admit that he was not fit to do the job, and then stand down.
Sorry, did I mention Brown and honour in the same sentence.
Silly me!!
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I think I might know what these mysterious "green shoots" are.
Now that the government has decided to go ahead with the Heathrow expansion, they will no doubt sign some very lucrative contracts with some construction companies. (Remind me, have any construction companies made any donations to Labour party funds recently?)
When Labour lose the next election, the Heathrow expansion will be cancelled, and the construction companies, who will have been careful to negotiate amazingly generous cancellation clauses in the contracts (if government ministers don't agree to this at first, I'm sure a little chat aboard a yacht or two will smooth things over), will be able to cash in on the cancellation penalties.
Since they know perfectly well they'll never actually have to build anything, that should be a nice little earner.
Green shoots indeed!
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mark_WE
"The big difference is the brand new posters, who suddenly appear after a party announcement to say how great it is and how they are going to benefit - currently these comments seem to be very one sided towards Labour."
I'm not trying to say I like this grass roots campaigning. but if it must happen then its good both sides are at it. Your comment about new people appearing after announcements I've noticed that happening after Cameron makes an announcement as well as massive comment numbers and people repeating themselves. Do real people repeat what others have said many times? Both sides are now at this grass roots campaigning or maybe artificial grass roots campaigning(Astroturfing) with several accounts. Sensible Labour and other supporters have realised what is going on and given up. Now I dare say the same will happen to Conservatives and BBC comments pages and have your say will become an even bigger joke. A load astroturfers arguing with each other. Might be good for a laugh.
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#278 Mark_WE
Help!
I'm still quite a relatively new poster.
I was struck by the thought the other day, that despite all the damage Gordon Brown did as Chancellor to businesses like mine, I've actually done extremely well, thank you very much, as a bi-product of the over-complexity he brought to our taxation system.
It's a couple of years since I last visited Norway, and I'm not aware of any missing teeth, excess body hair or a bulbous nose (but then my friends - if I had any, I wouldn't be writing here - are probably too polite to tell me), but am I in danger of becoming one of this despised breed?
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214 U946etc
said
"If the German economy is in a mess then the blame lies with the German government.
If the US economy is in a mess then the blame lies with the American government.
If the UK economy is totally screwed, nailed to its perched, an ex-economy that has ceased to be then it is the fault of the UK government.
I do hope this helps your understanding of which government is responsible for which country".
Well thanks for your response.
This truly must be the biggest economic co-incidence in history, all these governments getting in an economic mess at exactly the same time.
You don't appear to recognise either the global aspect or banking aspect of this at all do you?
The Globalised banking industry took greed to new levels, they made disastrous high risk lending and investment decisions and have left governments and therefore the ordinary person in the street with the bill.
To just blame all the worlds governments in isolation of each other as you suggest is frankly a bit silly (IMO)
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#283 Mr Spanners
A well-written piece, sir.
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Just a thought here (yay, second post, must mean Im real and not a troll from under some parties bridge :)
1 for the Conspiracy theorists. What other things happened yesterday that needed to be covered up with a non-story?
The Fact that GB cant do Maths, or that his sums dont add up?
Last time that got challenged was I believe the 10p Tax issue, and that all went pear shaped for the government didnt it..
Or maybe this is just Nick showing that he is doing something whilst he waits for the Heathrow story to break, when he and Robert P can argue over if its political or business...
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Re PammyAnny #262
The reason that I said it is that somebody has to. Let's be fair, this is a middle-class white blog.
You only have to read the comments on Mihir Bose' blog to see that the BBC and its blog aren't as 'representative' as they should be.
This is outright stupidity - it is a non-story. The real story should be a celebration of this woman and her achievements. Nick Robinson has chosen to ignore this.
I want to know why. And you notice he has not responded. Journalists do not attempt to trip up white, business people. Nobody would ask Richard Branson or Sir Alex Ferguson questions designed to make them look stupid. They would never be allowed to speak to them again - hence they ask questions like "why are you so brilliant?".
An asian woman though - fair game, hey!!
An example:
The BBC invited Norman Lamont onto its Interest Rate expert panel on Newsnight. You are telling me that there are no asian or black experts better placed to discuss interest rate setting than the man that took us to 15%?? Really??
They pander to white, middle-class business people and politicians and shoot down those from anywhere else.
This woman should be celebrated and typical Brits, we shoot her down. That is why I said it.
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Dr Disraeli, how does UK VAT affect exports?
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political games
bbc looking for negative things to say.
party political fans slagging the other mob off
What a load of rubbish. This is definitely a story that has been whipped up beyond all recognition. Here are two facts:
1- Green shoots does not mean that everything is blooming and bursting with life. It means that their is sign that new life is still growing. This is true. Not all businesses are dead and dying. Anyone who tells you they are is a liar. I know of lots of businesses that are still going strong in these difficult times. Yes they are difficult and some business is dying but there is still some life left in business in the UK and there is still growth in some markets. So yes there are green shoots.
2- The phrase green shoots was in the question asked of the minister. Poor and sensationalist journalism makes a big deal out of it.
To be honest this journalism is beneath the BBC and they are becoming embarrassingly poor at reporting news. Everything is either doom and gloom or dancing on ice. Please bring back journalism. It is sorely missed.
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Well.... blow me down with a feather, who wooda billllleeeved it
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7830521.stm
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dhwilkinson wrote:
Your comment about new people appearing after announcements I've noticed that happening after Cameron makes an announcement as well as massive comment numbers and people repeating themselves. Do real people repeat what others have said many times? Both sides are now at this grass roots campaigning or maybe artificial grass roots campaigning(Astroturfing) with several accounts.
I don't have time to spend viewing comments on all the blogs (I usually just choose one or two and then follow how it goes!) so it is possible that I have missed the more blatent attempts of the Tory Trolls (I am sure there are some!)
I agree with you totally about it seeming fake when you have a number of people repeating pretty much exactly the same as someone else (although if the comments are made by established posters I think it is a genuine thing!)
Personally I feel that if rather then post the same thing multiple times it would be better to post less and mix it up a bit. If they are getting paid then they should have some pride in their work and try to do a decent job! If they are doing it for fun they really need to get out more and if they are Councillors or MPs trying to save their jobs then perhaps their time would be better spent serving their voters!
Although, I do find it is fun when two blatent trolls quote each other to show they have support - it is like a sock puppet theatre! :)
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It strikes me that it's Labour focusing on the green shoots and making a lot of distracting noise. Has anyone considered the bad news that's emerging? Third runway being nodded through, Coroners & Justice Bill with personal information to be accessible by almost all employees in the public sector, new Sentencing Council. Anyone spotted anything else?
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fairlopian_tubester wrote:
#278 Mark_WE
Help!
I'm still quite a relatively new poster.
.....
but am I in danger of becoming one of this despised breed?
Well you have broken four of the golden rules of trolling/planting
1. You have posted too often (a true plant would have switched to another id by now!)
2. You have actually written more then a few lines in your postings!
3. You have came up with well reasoned debate!
4. You haven't come across as someone who just joined for the purpose of spreading the cause!
So if you are a troll I doubt you will get your bonus ;-)
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296 Rhino
Carefull with that Tar brush mate!
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Ok, ok, sorry Dolly Draper and the RRU but it is time for me to 'fess up.
I have personally benefitted from New Labour sleaze, to the tune of several big ones.
As it happens, I have a needle phobia so when I heard several years ago about a company which had developed a device which surface-blasted the stuff into your skin at high pressure, I thought I'd better plonk down some wonga on this one, as its bound to be a winner.
How was I to know that the company was bunging the NL Government several tens of large ones?
Payday arrived soon after as a mega-gummint contract arrived, no 'tender' nonsense either and said company was prompting flogged at a healthy premium for moi.
As my wonga was inadvertently acquired via rather dubious means, I felt obliged to dispense of it in a similar manner, so thank for the memories Ivanka, the recreational drugs - Swisher Pom-pom cigars that is, and the booze - Southern Comfort.
Alls-well-that-ends-well, and PowerJect continues to this day under its new owners and founder 'Baron' Paul Drayson is, naturally, in and out of Government, no election nonsense either, as he so desires.
Ps. Look up Draysons wikipedia entry and its all there under 'Controversy'. Ho ho.
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#296 "An asian woman though - fair game, hey!!"
No, I think it's more the fact she's unelected and unaccountable that's the problem, not that she is Asian.
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Oh Dear another Vote Loser for the Government, Hoon has just taken a poop with his trousers on.
So putting things in perspective, the government want to tax me to death because I have to drive to work, and is monitoring my electrical usage.
However and addition 125,000 flights over London is OK.
Who was it that championed the Climate Change Managers for Local Authorities?
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Come on who is really shocked that we now have factual public evidence that Gordon Brown cant do sums.
Not only is the 5 quid figure wrong for a "typical" (His words) family because it would mean said "typical" family spending a couple of grand a month on vatable items.
but his mutiplication of the 5 by 52 is off by 15 quid as well, some say it is a rounding factor but 5.4% his a huge rounding factor if that is the case.
Altogether now
Gordon Brown Cant do his sums
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RHINO44 wrote:
I want to know why. And you notice he has not responded. Journalists do not attempt to trip up white, business people. Nobody would ask Richard Branson or Sir Alex Ferguson questions designed to make them look stupid. They would never be allowed to speak to them again - hence they ask questions like "why are you so brilliant?".
She isn't just a business person she IS a government minister, if she was just a business person she wouldn't have been interviewed. This blog describes here as the "woman who is Gordon Brown's most important economic adviser and the Business minister"
Journalists try and trip up Ministers all the time regardless of colour, sex, race or political party.
If the government had given Sir Alex Ferguson the role of putting together a GB team for the Olympics you would get Journalists trying to trip him up and get him to say that this would lead to the merging of the Premier League and the SPL.
And journalists DO try and trip up white business people - if you watch consumer shows then they will try and trip up company spokespeople to fit the stories they are presenting.
This is not a race thing - it would be a race thing if the media were not allowed to try and trip her up because of her race OR if they didn't try and trip up a Minister because they were white.
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# 46. They despise all of us, especially if we disagree with them. The people don't matter. They just pass laws to curtail our freedom, crimaniliase people for petty offences, (putting your dustbin out on the wrong day, maybe) I would vote for a monkey to get this lot out, luckily there is an alternative.
#109. Gordons crew don't realise that you do not have the John Lewis list and the money tax free that all the MPs get to run their 2nd homes. That is one reason you will not be saving £260-£275 per annum, Just a small mistake.
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Why can the BBC Website not introduce an Ignore button so we can individually choose to filter out posts from specific users?
Being able to /ignore derekbarker and his cohorts from the Dolly Factory would reduce the amount of scrolling I need to do on blog comments NO END!
Their comemnst add absolutely ZERO value to the blog, not seen anything sensible or honest written by ANY of the diehard apologists on this blog in months.
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#296
You are telling me that there are no asian or black experts better placed to discuss interest rate setting than the man that took us to 15%?? Really??
Name one.
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Ex-trade minister Lord Digby Jones says he was "amazed" to discover how many civil servants "deserved the sack".
He told a committee of MPs he thought the civil service could "frankly... be done with half as many" people
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7830521.stm
I dont understand why he should be surprised, common sense should tell you this.
It also shows up the Labour lie that cutting government budget cut would cut frontline services.
Its high time we had an election. Let the people decide
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Dr Disraeli, how does UK VAT affect exports?
Just forgive him. He didn't read the notes that he was handed over. If he was a real businessman (let alone successfull) he would have realised that exports (whatever they may be) are being affected by the crash of the Pound. Nobody seems to have told him. I'll try and explain it to him. Just before all this started I bought some goods from a European Country negotiated in Euros. By the time I pay for them it will cost me 30% more. And again. Our beloved former Chancellor negotiated the new EU payments in Euro. This crass decision will cost us £ 3 billion extra year. I am sure they are calling this in Bruxelles a "green shoot".
Hopefully Dr. Disraeli hasn't abandoned completely the blog. He may still have some little experience to add to his already great success.
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#296
You are being extremely selective in your racial accusations here.
I am asian and I see no such targetting that you mention. JUST MAYBE she was given a leading question because she is an UNELECTED peered Labour Minister of trade?
And there has been an Indian Ex-MPC member on newsnight on more than one occasion in the last 2 months talking about interest rates and quantitative easing. (incidently he also looked like a prat with the waffle he came out with regards to printing money being the ONLY solution now)
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I do wish Channel 4 would grow a pair adn do a documentar y on how our civil liberties and right to democratic government have been eroded on a grand scale since NuLabour came to power in 1997.
The general public are too ignorant to notice, but if they were told they may well feel to kick up a fuss about it.
Government is operating a plan of subterfuge and deception of the elctorate in order to brainwash them into voting Red!
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The proposed new runway and terminal at Heathrow is becoming a huge issue transcending political issues.
Boris and the Conservatives are dead against it.
What I want to know is why is Brown bulldozing this through in such a ruthless manner without (I think) recourse to research, reviews etc?
I do think this is part of his sinister agenda and he is not upfront with the public (what's new?).
If he gets his wish and the world becomes one big global state does he envisage the air traffic will accelerate in and out of here? Or does he want it for emergency defence reasons, such as RAF take-offs?
Just thinking of the options. Let's hope the Conservatives get in because they would halt the whole thing. Good old Tories.
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Norman Lamont's comment was not notorius. It was 'on the money' and, who knows, the Baroness might be right too, but you only know (when the tide has turned) in retrospect. In today's overspun political climate, it was a telling error of judgement coinciding as it did with announcements of wholesale redundancies. Cameron's problem will be, if she is right, that people might soon forget who really got us into this whole damn mess and re-elect them.
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German Chancellor Angela Merkel has unveiled an economic stimulus package worth about 50bn euros ($67bn; £45bn) to kick-start Europe's largest economy.
The measures include investments in railways, roads and schools, as well as a number of tax relief initiatives.
It is aimed at helping the country during what some fear could be its worst recession since World War II.
An earlier 23bn-euro plan to stimulate the economy, passed last month, was derided for being too cautious.
"We will do everything possible to make sure Germany not only gets through this crisis but emerges stronger," Ms Merkel said.
Ooops! Is this Brown saying all the above? No no no! Is it the country which Dave had said that it would not have as big a recession as the UK, because thier economy is stronger. Ha ha haj!
Or is Germany copying what Brown did a acouple of months ago?
Reduction in VAT is already on the agenda in Spain and in Italy to leave more cash in people's pockets, and Obama's advisers are also hinting for the reduction of the purchasing tax in the USA.
One wonders why the word GLOBAL has disappeared from the Tories' dictionary!
One wonders what the German Government would say and do, when big German car manufacturers go to the wall!
Have a nice day Nick!
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The Times seems to have spotted a green shoot: apparently the bank of england will soon underwrite a car loan scheme in order to increase credit availability for car buyers.
Makes sense for a country whose consumers are not used to saving any money, much like the government which ran a budget deficit prior to the US assault on the UK economy.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5519737.ece
Mandy, Brown and the Baroness could learn something from the reader comments in The Times, and so could some BBC reporters.
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#313
It may be costing an additional GBP3bn, but the EU are getting the same amount of euros, so why would they consider it a green shoot? And assuming that some of that money will then be spent in the UK, if the exchange rate remains constant the EU will get some of those extra pounds back when it is changed back into Sterling. So the actual loss will be less.
As a businessman who clearly deals with international finance, surely you would be aware of the exchange risks? Some you win, some you lose. That's why it is called a risk.
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RHINO44 @ 296
I think you choose some inappropriate people there, namely Branson and Ferguson.
Branson will send a ravenous pack of legal beagles down the throat of just about anybody* who utters a squeak against him - even the late great John Lennon did not escape from Branson - and he, Branson was still a student then!
Furthermore, it must be fairly common knowledge that Ferguson has had a grudge against the BBC ever since they had the temerity to ask him some awkward questions about some football 'wonga' sleaze.
I don't think it is very helpful to characterise people by the colour of their skin or 'class'.
* excepting the journalist Tom Bowers, who is very careful to ensure that his stories are properly researched - hence Branson's belated admission to a Purchase Tax fiddle early in his career.
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Green shoots apart, the economy will not recover no matter what Brown & Co do with the banks or VAT or loans to buy cars etc.etc. until house prices get back to approximately 3 times average annual salary and a 10% deposit is paid by the borrower.
It isn't exactly difficult even for economists or politicians to see that once house prices have spiralled out of control, due to out of control lending (encouraged by Labour as they were getting loads of dough in taxes) and buying property seized up, then sales of furniture, white goods, carpets plus services of estate agents, solicitors, removal men etc.etc would drastically be reduced.
We are going to have to bear a massive increase in unemployment until such time as property values stabilise, which may be at least another year.
Unfortunately we will then have a massive public debt incurred by this government, to pay off!
Leave green shoots to politicians and gardeners and focus on what started the particular problem in the UK (not global Gordon), exacerbated by the great banking cock up to ensure we can be in a reasonable position when the depression (not downturn Gordon) finishes.
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@ flamepatatricia (316)
re 3rd runway at heathrow, one explanation may be the unions who have bankrolled Labour to the tune of well over 10 million pounds since 2001 or 2002 and have guaranteed to banks that they will step in if Labour fails to make good on its borrowing.
(if you search on The Times site you will find an article re the unions financing Labour)
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Re 259
Well, I'm a real person. I'm not commenting on behalf of anyone else and I'm not a member of any political party.
In fact, I have enough of a brain to decide for myself what an inept shower we have for a government. I am also capable of seeing in Brown someone who can only believe what is in his head no matter how divorced that is from reality and who leads a party that is so determined to hold on to power it will employ all the vicious tactics in the book. In NuLabour we have a perfect example of all power corrupting and absolute power corrupting absolutely. So which is the nasty party now?
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omg Econce. Quite possibly.
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@ Onlywayup (318),
I understand you think Brown looks clever, but remember when Thatcher put aside the views of 320-odd economists and the 1980s and was proved right.
My view is that it is the wrong policy for the US and the UK and hence that when everyone seems to be throwing oil on the fire you should not necessarily do it as well.
Wrong policy because the US and the UK went into this recession with:
-consumers dissaving (UK) or hardly saving (US)
-the government running a budget deficit
-smaller companies gearing up (esp. UK)
-imports larger than exports
Japan in the 1980s had plusses for all the above except company gearing.
Don't take my word for it, but look at what 2 economists wrote about respectively quantitative easing and fiscal stimuli :
-quantitaive easing may not work when balance sheets are impaired (as they are in the UK and US and were Japan):
http://www.federalreserve.gov/boardDocs/speeches/2002/20021121/default.htm
-fiscal stimuli may only work under some pretty speculative assumptions:
http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/trioshrt.html
The first link doesn't directly give away the economist's name but Brown is a fan of him: Bernanke.
So 2 famous economists actually don't know whether you can spend and reflate yourself out of a recession. But I do know that the debt will be repaid by either higher tax and/or higher inflation. Hence I'm really scared and angry that governments are going for broke while I pay tax (luckily not anymore in the UK) and lack a public sector inflation-indexed pension.
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#318 onlywayup
Your interesting contribution is too large to paste here, but in reply (and I feel I am repeating myself from earlier posts):
a) the Conservative Party supports a global fiscal stimulus (for countries that can afford it)
b) France and Germany are not giving priority to a VAT reduction (don't know about Italy and Spain - please provide evidence)
c) the IMF and the EU have reservations about the VAT reduction (last time I looked at their websites).
I don't read these websites ever day and am always ready to stand corrected if they have changed.
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@ Onlywayup,
And did you note that Germany plans to limit the budget deficit to 0.5% of GDP in ordinary times (Brown ran an almost 3% deficit in 2006/7) and enact a redemption fund to repay the debt as quickly as possible?
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From today's Daily Telegraph: Ireland plans drastic public pay cuts to avoid debt crisis.
Ireland is to demand pay cuts for civil servants and public employees to prevent the budget defict rising to 12% of GDP by next year.
Some questions for informed bloggers:
a) is this a justifiable approach?
b) does being in the euro help or hinder the Irish economy? (hints: a) Irish companies are being hit by a cheaper pound; and b) one of the benefits of the euro was supposed to cheaper access to international credit markets. Yields on Irish bonds are now 180 basis points over German bonds)
c) will cuts come here a) only under a Conservative Government; b) under any Government; c) under orders from the IMF when the UK is facing bankruptcy?
All credit to the Irish Government for addressing the issue. Wake up Gordon!
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I think I can see ''green shoots'' as well. Through the holes in both feet. But I'm not too sure if they are real grass or plastic grass.
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Onlywayisup = derekbarker = ...
Notice the style of writing!
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301 Pammy
Try this from The Spectator:
"Just to point out an important post by Sam Coates over at Red Box. Turns out the House has chosen today, when the airwaves are dominated by the Heathrow announcement, to publish an audit of MPs' expenses (pdf here). I'll leave you to check out the details in Sam's post, but it's now looking less likely that we'll see a full publication of expenses or, indeed, any proper restrictions introduced. All in all, I wouldn't be too surprised if the Government's quite pleased that John McDonnell has been suspended from the Commons for protesting the Heathrow expansion. There'll be even less room in the papers for these dispiriting cover-ups to be exposed."
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I have grave doubts whether a 'fiscal stimulus' = chronic government spending in the medium to long term would help a country.
In the short term it will increase money supply and create a demand which will help cash flow and many companies who would have gone bust to survive - for the moment BUT
Then comes along the chap with the broom to clean it up.
The Government will have substantially higher debts - this means that IN ADDITION to current taxation, the taxpayers have to pay MORE than they did before - to repay the loan and pay the interest on the loan. This will reduce demand even further (and at the moment many people have no spare cash anyway - so they will be even worse off i.e insolvent) and so
High public debt obviously means that the international community will be cautious buying government stock as they fear that there will be a run on the pound (a weak pound is the sign of a weak government - JG Brown). This means that there is a very good chance that the government will have to cut spending/ jobs even more than they would have had to had the stimulus not taken place.
= Another, deeper, recession.
The only alternative is 'quantitative easing' to inflate the debt away - The government won't be found out doing this as it would demolish any remaining credency of the Labour Party'
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#332
"burying bad news"
Shame the link you provide doesn't work,
You might also note that the Education lists came out too. They are on the BBC
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RE #311 - We are blogging about one such expert! She has been involved in monetary policy for a decade and no 15% interest rates to date!
Mr Robinson or Mr Paxman: could you please tell me when she was last asked to attend this monthly meeting of minds?
Re #321 - you have just answered my point. Plus Fergie was never asked any awkward questions - he actually quit speaking to the BBC because another manager was asked awkward questions. Yes, Branson would take them to the cleaners - doesn't mean he deserves more respect or easier questions.
Re everyone else, especially those that believe the BBC has asked the views of black and asian business people and politicians recently on monetary policy. On 9th January, this was Newsnight's expert panel to predict the MPC's next step:
Dr Ruth Lea
Martin Wolf
Dr Irwin Stelzer
Gerald Holtham
Ken Clarke
December 2008:
Dr Ruth Lea
Martin Wolf
Dr Irwin Stelzer
Gerald Holtham
Ken Clarke
How far back do you want me to go?
On the BBC, the only black or asian face you see with any consistency is Miss Chakrabarti.
Moira Stewart got the boot, one of the most talented newsreaders in the country, Krishnan Guru-Murthy, had to go to Channel 4 as he was only deemed appropriate for Newsround etc etc.
As Paul Merton said not so long ago. The BBC isn't sexist, ageist or racist, it just no longer needed the services of a 58 year old black woman!!
Look at BBC fiction: Eastenders. The black family run the corner shop and the mum has 2 kids with 2 different fathers and the asian family cook curries for a living! Right on!!
Maybe instead of asking the 'green shoots' question, the ITV journo should have said: "Well, could you whip me up a balti?"
Don't pretend it doesn't happen - just be straight and say it. You all know it does, however much you want to pretend.
This was a straight out attack to catch someone out - and I think we need to encourage woman and those from ethnic minorities to achieve. Not shoot those down that have with inane questions.
She should be held up as a great example and be left well alone to do her job.
Plus, I had a bet today that I could create a little mayhem on thos blog - and I won!!
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I have rarely meet so many that think with a passion called hate.
Christ! do you people really believe Dave and Ossie can cut the mustard? pah..pah.
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#318
"One wonders why the word GLOBAL has disappeared from the Tories' dictionary!"
Sure it's a global crisis, because we've all been hit by the same irresponsibility.
However, and this is the point that Labour supporters and Dolly Drones need to understand: despite his claims to the contrary, it is fast becoming clear that the UK with its entire economy based on financial services, is NOT best placed to see the "downturn" through.
We are going to be hit harder by this recession than any other developed nation, save perhaps the USA. And that's understandable, they had a complete non-intellectual in charge. We do not have that excuse.....so the only two options left are incompetent and arrogant.
Words that sum Brown up perfectly.
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#331
Nataku, look, it's not fiction nor cartoon characters your playing with?
Tell me! If Cameron wanted to put 50Bn into a national loan scheme for small business, yet refuses to borrow money, then where would he find the 50Bn, Is Cameron adovacting a 50Bn pound cut in public spending?
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In fairness this was in response to a loaded question on ITV news which did ask specifically about 'green shoots' of recovery. However the answer was ill considered and given in the heat of the moment.
I think all the government are trying to 'talk it up' but know that the reality is we have far worse to come, the beginnings of which we have seen this week.
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Mandleson set her up as part of his get Gordy out agenda.
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335. At 5:23pm on 15 Jan 2009, RHINO44 wrote:
RE #311 - We are blogging about one such expert! She has been involved in monetary policy for a decade and no 15% interest rates to date!
Mr Robinson or Mr Paxman: could you please tell me when she was last asked to attend this monthly meeting of minds?
Re #321 - you have just answered my point. Plus Fergie was never asked any awkward questions - he actually quit speaking to the BBC because another manager was asked awkward questions. Yes, Branson would take them to the cleaners - doesn't mean he deserves more respect or easier questions.
Re everyone else, especially those that believe the BBC has asked the views of black and asian business people and politicians recently on monetary policy. On 9th January, this was Newsnight's expert panel to predict the MPC's next step:
Dr Ruth Lea
Martin Wolf
Dr Irwin Stelzer
Gerald Holtham
Ken Clarke
December 2008:
Dr Ruth Lea
Martin Wolf
Dr Irwin Stelzer
Gerald Holtham
Ken Clarke
How far back do you want me to go?
On the BBC, the only black or asian face you see with any consistency is Miss Chakrabarti.
Moira Stewart got the boot, one of the most talented newsreaders in the country, Krishnan Guru-Murthy, had to go to Channel 4 as he was only deemed appropriate for Newsround etc etc.
As Paul Merton said not so long ago. The BBC isn't sexist, ageist or racist, it just no longer needed the services of a 58 year old black woman!!
Look at BBC fiction: Eastenders. The black family run the corner shop and the mum has 2 kids with 2 different fathers and the asian family cook curries for a living! Right on!!
Maybe instead of asking the 'green shoots' question, the ITV journo should have said: "Well, could you whip me up a balti?"
Don't pretend it doesn't happen - just be straight and say it. You all know it does, however much you want to pretend.
This was a straight out attack to catch someone out - and I think we need to encourage woman and those from ethnic minorities to achieve. Not shoot those down that have with inane questions.
She should be held up as a great example and be left well alone to do her job.
Plus, I had a bet today that I could create a little mayhem on thos blog - and I won!
===
"Maybe instead of asking the 'green shoots' question, the ITV journo should have said: "Well, could you whip me up a balti?"
Stereotypes, eh?
===
"Plus, I had a bet today that I could create a little mayhem on thos blog - and I won!"
I hope you went out and spent your winnings, Your Country Needs You!
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297 THe Englishman
Asked
"Dr Disraeli, how does UK VAT affect exports?"
Does this really need an explanation?
Well you produce goods for export.
Those goods are made from raw materials or other parts. These suddenly become cheaper due to lower VAT so your production costs go down which makes you more competitive and hence offers the opportunity to export at a cheaper rate so your exports go up.
As easy as that.
Or you could split the difference and kkep half as extra profit!
just another reason why the VAT cut made good sense.
Glad to help.
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@ 338 Barking Derek
Tell me! If Cameron wanted to put 50Bn into a national loan scheme for small business, yet refuses to borrow money, then where would he find the 50Bn, Is Cameron adovacting a 50Bn pound cut in public spending?
He could cancel the NIR and IMP moneypits and stop the Heathrow expansion.
That would cover it and then some.
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344 eco
If you're that scared of inflation, buy some gold, or National Savings index linked, they pay inflation plus 1%, tax free. (or even index-linked gilts)
Oops, forgot, you don't pay tax in the UK, so you're worried about what, exactly?
The rest of the developed world is more concerned that the banks will take us with them into mass unemployment...
The tax bill is for later, and the whole western world will be paying it, not just the UK and not even mainly the UK.
Same with quantitative whatever, we'll all G7 print or none of us will.
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I said last night I wouldn't post again but the depth of ignorance has annoyed me all day.
Someone asked why eurozone customers are influenced to buy our goods if the VAT rate alters so, just to prove that someone here knows how business works, here's how.
For example, we sold an item to Germany this week costing £3000 net. A German business which is registered for the German equivalent of VAT would buy it as an EC Sale and not be charged VAT. A private individual like our customer has to be charged UK VAT so what would have cost him £3525 in November is now costing him £3450. He saves £75 and that has made the purchase more attractive to him.
He's saving a good deal more, I suppose, because his euros are worth more than they were against the pound. That doesn't interest me directly. His £3450 will arrive in my bank account in 2-3 days after the banks have 'handled' it for a while. I pay wages, overheads and suppliers in pounds so it doesn't matter what the value of the euro is so long as £3000 is £3000 in this country. All my component suppliers are in the UK. They are happy, my staff are happy, my customer is happy - so is the bank. And we sold another one to Ireland. We also made sales to Australia and South Africa but VAT is not charged on goods sold out of the EC.
At the end of the VAT quarter the Treasury is worse off by £75 on each sale of this item within the EC but it does get £450 it wouldn't have received if I hadn't made the sale, on top of the £3000 brought into the UK economy by each sale.
If a govt. initiative has oiled the wheels a bit then all well and good. That was the intention. Don't be so quick to knock it. Think it over. If you work in advertising you're getting a piece of this. If you work in a bank you're getting a piece, if you work in local govt. you might be staying in work this week because I've paid my business rates.
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345 Dr Disraeli
Brilliant
You probably won't get a response (other than the usual name calling or "troll" accusations because your arguement is just so strong.
Good for you and hope the business stays strong
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345 Doctor Disraeli
By the way don't expect any appologies for yesterdays cyber bullying
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#18
For "sufficient wealth" read - "sufficient debt"....
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This is political "journalism" at it's worst. Latch onto a perfectly valid opinion, rip it out of context, make no attempt to asses whether it's accurate (I have no idea, I can't find what she actually said anywhere) and instead castigate the person who said it because it sounds vaguely like something someone said yonks ago.
Political debate has never been more impoverished, because no politician dare give an honest opinion, float and idea or deviate slightly from the same tedious script because they will be slaughtered by press and other politicians for nothing more than going against the herd. For crying out loud Nick, tell us something interesting for once.
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#345 doctordisraeli
Good for you, what is it you sell?
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Green shoots?
Hmmm.
The interview looked suspect to me- like she was asked to prepare a response to the question. Sorry Auntie, but the whole thing came across as staged.
And yes, I took exception to her seemingly smug attitude.
However, it did occur to me that this poor lady has been thrown to the lions in a desperate attempt to convince the people of this country that recovery is imminent. Perhaps her 'I know something you don't' smile was also part of a masterplan to convince us all to be more confident, and go shopping, cos this really important lady obviously knows something we don't!
If this was the case, I have a sneaking feeling it didn't work!
However, we are looking into acquiring another business to augment our others. If we go ahead with it, we don't intend to break it up, but rather make it more efficient and profitable, thereby safeguarding jobs.
In any dreadful situation like this, there are always some businesses that do well as the strong can support the weak and both become stronger as a result. I have had visits from 3 different HR Recruitment agencies this week, plying their trade with some truly innovative give-aways. Innovation is still around, and no doubt recruitment agencies are hoping to do well.
On reflection, therefore, maybe this lady suggests green shoots when she really means a restructuring of our business culture. Darwinian in some cases, but also more diversity?
This can only be good for the country when all the dust settles and we phoenix ourselves from the ashes.
If all the above is not true, and her comments are just what their face value suggests, the thought she advises Gordy is scary stuff!
But didn't Ally D suggest that we would all see the upturn imminently?
Who knows?!
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A psychological gaffe or what? It is more like the green shoots of complacency.
After vast quantities of tax payers money have been poured into propping up banks, Ministers had claimed to have solved the crisis. If this is an example of her advice, it is as telling as the man who falsly claimed 'to have saved the world'.
As one of Brown's and Mandleson's advisors, does she really know what is going on? Government response to this crisis has been a mixture of complacency and panic. This does not inspire confidence.
There is no clear direction, no comprehensible plan. Every day new schemes are announced and tax payers money thrown at them with no clear evidence or understanding of business acumen.
There has been no real tangible benefit so far. Green shoots or green shoots of complacency, Baroness Vadera's judgemnent is questionable. So far the handling of this crisis has failed to inspire confidence.
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Re #343
Bang on!
Plus, unfortunately for Labour Mr Digby Jones has just told everyone exactly where £50bn could be found!
This is a real kick in the teeth for Labour. They can no longer say the Tory sums don't add up. He is stating that 230,000 should be booted out of public sector jobs because they are a waste of space.
At an average of £17,000 a year, which is an underestimate, this is a saving of £4bn per annum. Labour have been in charge for 11 years now - so have wasted £44bn.
Tories only need to find £6bn over the next 10 years - the sums do add up. Scrapping ID cards should do it.
Much as it pains me to say it, because neither are electable!
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#335.
RE #311 - We are blogging about one such expert! She has been involved in monetary policy for a decade and no 15% interest rates to date!
S'cuse me? This is the 'expert' famous for engineering the bankrupcy of Railtrak to fleece grannies of their blouses. A trick she clearly plans to repeat on anybody stupid enough to still have any shares in Lloyds/HBoS or RBS.
An 'expert' who failed to see that trebling house prices in a decade would lead to a housing crash let alone the 'credit crunch' that anybody with an IQ greater than a jellyfish could see was inevitable once we started borrowing more than we produced year-on-year for almost a decade.
Expert? Bwahahahahaha.
She couldn't run a lemonade stand.
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Green shoots?
They're the tentacles of Gordon Brown misinformation triffids that have blinded you to reality.
You muppet.
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#345
Don't be so quick to knock it. Think it over. If you work in advertising you're getting a piece of this. If you work in a bank you're getting a piece,
And if any of these people drive a car they've lost it all again. Because the Maximum Leader put up the fuel tax to cover the cost of this 'initiative'.
Just like his headline grabbing 200 million to help 6,000 people avoid appearing on the repossessions figures. Because this 6,000 is the number of people the treasury has calculated will be necessary to 'save' from repossession just so that Brown's property bust doesn't beat the repossession record of the Tories 1990's property bust. Pure politics. Another 200m squandered in a vain attempt to avoid another damaging 'record'.
Yeah. Good luck with that Gordon.
Remember it was Brown's number-crunchers who told us only six weeks ago that the recession would be over by the end of June.
It'll only be over if he starts rolling the presses by April. Then it'll be over in the same sense that Zimbabwe's GDP will increase by over 1,000,000% this year. They'll (we'll?) all be starving but the banknotes will have a lot more zeros on them.
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Eatonrifle wrote:
Those goods are made from raw materials or other parts. These suddenly become cheaper due to lower VAT so your production costs go down which makes you more competitive and hence offers the opportunity to export at a cheaper rate so your exports go up.
As easy as that.
Or you could split the difference and kkep half as extra profit!
just another reason why the VAT cut made good sense.
Glad to help.
Now I am confused here - as I was under the impression that a business doesn't pay VAT (or they can claim it back) so how are they saving money on raw materials if the VAT is cut? In fact you would expect that the raw materials would actually be more expensive as most of them are imported (which is more expensive because our currency is weak!)
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MonkeyBot5000 wrote:
@ 338 Barking Derek
Tell me! If Cameron wanted to put 50Bn into a national loan scheme for small business, yet refuses to borrow money, then where would he find the 50Bn, Is Cameron adovacting a 50Bn pound cut in public spending?
He could cancel the NIR and IMP moneypits and stop the Heathrow expansion.
That would cover it and then some.
He could also organise a proper review of MP's expenses! Oh! and there is apparently 50% of the Civil Service that could be pruned - that should save a few quid.
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Re #354
You talk like bankruptcy is ALWAYS a bad thing.
Fact is that Railtrack had to go. Plus I didn't see any homeowners blogging on here when house prices trebled.
Take responsibility for yourself. The value of a property, at the very outset of the process, is set by the seller. Estate agents, surveyors etc can advise only - and if you have a hefty deposit, noone can stop a buyer from paying over the odds.
If you caught a cold, it is your fault. Noone asked anyone to take out a personal loan or to buy a property at an extortionate price. People could always rent a property - the reason they didn't was because they wanted some of this trebling asset price too. Even at an LTV of 125%.
You certainly cannot blame a politician if you paid too much money for an over-priced asset. Don't make excuses.
I bought my home in 1997, leveraged it to buy more and sold them in 2007, before the dip. All I did was read a book. Maybe if other people had, they wouldn't be so bothered about the mess the country is in.
Seems easier to make excuses or blame other people for this stuff. But the fact is, with any asset, it is worth what someone is willing to pay. If you paid too much, don't blame this woman - look at your lack of financial awareness instead.
And ask yourself, if a bank offers 125% mortgages, does it mean I have to take one out?
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doctordisraeli wrote:
I said last night I wouldn't post again but the depth of ignorance has annoyed me all day.
Someone asked why eurozone customers are influenced to buy our goods if the VAT rate alters so, just to prove that someone here knows how business works, here's how.
For example, we sold an item to Germany this week costing ?3000 net. A German business which is registered for the German equivalent of VAT would buy it as an EC Sale and not be charged VAT. A private individual like our customer has to be charged UK VAT so what would have cost him ?3525 in November is now costing him ?3450. He saves ?75 and that has made the purchase more attractive to him.
How business work depends on the business you are in (which we don't know because you haven't told us!)
However, you yourself admit that the saving of £75 made the transaction "more" appealing to the customer - which suggests he was already considering it.
Now I expect I am in the majority here who thinks that the saving of £75 on a £3525 purchase isn't really a deal sealer.
If I am buying a car and I really need/want the car then I will buy it - I might try to haggle to reduce the price OR go to somewhere to get the same car at a lower price. However, I am not going to walk away because I am not getting a £75 discount on my £3525 car. Just as I am not going to go out and buy a £3525 car because it has £75 off.
So as you said it makes the deal more appealing - but it doesn't make the deal.
This brings us back to what products/services you sell - if you make something from raw materials then you can not sell your product for less then the cost of the materials (unless they are loss leaders to attract customers) and make a profit. Likewise if you are selling services you need to cover the costs of the staff who provide the service. You also need to meet operating costs.
Some big ticket items (such as out of the box software) have no real raw material costs so are easier to discount then something that a ring that is hand-crafted from precious materials.
Which leads us to discounting - if the 2.5% made such a huge difference to your sales then you could have generated the same effect by cutting your profits slightly (which is what many companies are currently doing). People feel that the VAT cut isn't working because if the big companies aren't benefitting from their own discounts of 25% then an extra 2.5% isn't going to make too much of a difference.
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165 tallshort
I'm very sorry that your working conditions changed for the worse. The "factory" workplace that has become more common over the last few decades is certainly no improvement. However, business advisers don't just turn up, they have to be invited in by the business owners / management. Maybe the business was going through a downturn, or some of the family managing the business were about to retire?
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296 rhino
"this is a middle-class white blog."
I don't think you've been following these blogs for very long. Plenty of posters over time have revealed that they are not white, or not middle class. Comments based on fact are generally more appreciated than those that aren't. Although I must admit to rising to a bait from time to time ;->
I'm not sure what she has achieved that can be celebrated. Wiki seems to reveal failures.
I am unhappy that she's yet another close friend elevated to the peerage purely in order to be part of the govt. She's totally unaccountable to the electorate - she wasn't elected and she can't be questioned in the Commons, yet she, like the other business dept peers can have huge influence on matters that affect all of us. That is UNDEMOCRATIC.
Anyway, as I said at #301, she may have been a sacrificial lamb to cover bad news.
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332 also
334 Stronghold
Thank you for checking the bad news!
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305 Dial
Sorry, hadn't read your post before I wrote 362. But we obviously agree!
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321 John
Yes, Tom Bower's biographies are well worth reading. I read the Branson one after the Maxwell. Very eye opening.
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336 derek
"do you people really believe Dave and Ossie can cut the mustard? pah..pah."
Hmm, looks like hate to me LOL
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338 derek
"If Cameron wanted to put 50Bn into a national loan scheme for small business"
It's a loan GUARANTEE scheme, which means not all the money would need to be paid and none would need to be paid upfront. The only payment would be part of a loan if it went bad. That's why a big number can be used. Banks can guarantee loans up to a total of 50bn, but only a small part of that would need to be paid out in the future. If it kick starts businesses, the more successful they are the more likely it is that the loans won't go bad, so the less would have to be paid by the govt.
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#118 -
If Browns recovery plan is so good why is the pound so weak?
"Well, that would be because a weak pound is a sign of a weak economy and a weak economy is a sign of a weak government."
Touche.
And Nick "Chemical Ali" - pretending you have been besieged by comments and had to justify making news out of the "green shoots" debacle - if you read the comments in yesterday's blog there are very few taking that line. As we said yesterday, you used the headline to dedicate half your column to the Tory comment made in 1992.
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Pammyanny @ 365
Banson followed by Maxwell eh?
You might as well finish the trilogy with Bowers biog of Brown, which I read some years ago (recently updated I believe to take account of becoming PM).
It is deeply unflattering and quite worrying really, well for 'normal' people, that is.
I expect a professional politician reading it would not find anything untoward.
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368
The pound is so weak because it is a blooming bargain, and that is why the shops are full of people from Ireland and Europe buying up everything in sight.
Wait and see , the Euro will be back at 70p by summer.
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Mark-WE doubts that a £75 VAT saving makes a difference. Yes it does.
I've no idea whether that particular customer was already considering the purchase. The fact is that he has made it. Moreover, we are selling a higher volume of that particular high-priced item now than in the same period of the last financial year.
I have said that I won't say what we sell because it makes me too identifiable but our customers are wealthy and 20 years of experience tells me that they get immense satisfaction out of saving a tenner.
By the way, we secured three months' work from the US today. It's about 3 years since we sold anything to the States because the pound was so high.
And yes, I am perfectly well aware that one's goods are priced to take account of the cost of raw materials and overheads but thank you for the advice.
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GGGGGRRRRR -the bloated safety net that is the public sector strikes again-talk about a two tier system-how do all the civil servants with their protected employment and their gold plated index linked pensions feel about us,the private sector masses, being laid off indiscriminately or having to take a pay cut just to ensure that we MIGHT have a job at the end of this-I would be very interested to know,when this all done and dusted the ratio of private/public sector job losses-
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Well i think it is a big deal. It is obvious that it was a general question and that "green shoots" was put in there deliberatly. However, due to the fact that she actually replied and said she can see some "green shoot" proves that she is inexperienced, maybe not in her ministry, but definatly as a polititian
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372
Thank goodness there is a public sector providing continuity of business and custom during the downtimes.......cut the public sector and you'll cut your own nose to spite your horrid Jonah face.
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Oh dear, Onward-ho.
You really are very short-sighted.
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375 372
No, it's true, ask any businessman, if we only relied on the private sector there would be nothing happening during a downturn, at least the public sector do not default on their contracts, do not go bust during construction....no, the yin and yang of public and private sectors provide a good mixture which mitigates the peaks and troughs of commerce.
I work in both, as an employer, as a union member, as an employee, as a capitalist and as a parent with kids in both sectors.
And as far as goldplated pensions are concerned, ask any talented public sector worker how their lump sums and pensions compare with the share-options and bonuses of their pals in the private sector and you know what they would prefer and it ain't from the public sector, mate!
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...but surely a public sector pension is better then no pension at all?
That's exactly how I'm looking at it. I've spent quite a lot of my hard-earned money on trying to provide for us in our old age. It was wiped off the scale soon after Gordon took office.
The government kept telling us to provide for oursleves in retirement, which was exactly what we did. We went without holidays and luxuries to do this. It was taken away from us in a heartbeat.
You're obviously the expert - so what now then?
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377
I am sorry to hear that.
But you are alive, which is more than can be said of most of the working class who die prematurely without getting their pension.
I had a rotten policy with Equitable Life that did not even pay back all of the contributions despite the biggest boom in the stock market ever.
And the actuarial liabilities on public sector pensions now are huge. Many public sector workers will find that they will soon be working for private companies and their pension rights will be lost forever.
And who would really want to be a civil servant ? They have to put up with boring lives and lots of pressure and hassle.
And since 1980 public sector wages have been on RPI indices and fell behind their private sector equivalents.
The problem for the public sector is that their employers, the governmant and the councils, the NHS,the police etc....have no fund...it is a superPonzi scheme dependent on the contributions of future workers.
And millions of their jobs have been farmed out.
If the Tories get in these public sector jobs do not look that safe.
As to how to recover from as reduction in the pensions, it might not seem like it but their is a mini boom phase in the stockmarket, if you can track the FTSE it might be a good investment.
So you've scrimped and saved for a rainy day.....maybe now is the time to SKI....spending your kids inheritance, downsize your home,even work part-time if you are fit , babysit your grandkids but charge a tenner a time so you do not feel taken for granted, but not exploiting you kids.
What i have noticed is that being active when you are retired is a bigger guarantee of contentment than being rich is.
All the money in the world will not bring back a dead spouse.
Live for the moment.
The best things in life are free.
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