Strange the last blog submitted is about our great leader - nothing much else has happened other than the total politicisation of the police and a quick retraction - correctly.
I always thought Christmas was on 25 December. So why are people taking the opportunity to goof off for two weeks?
Don't they know there's a recession (slump) on?
Will their jobs be there for when they come back? If they can disappear for two weeks without affecting the operation then what value do they add during the other fifty weeks? Perhaps the prevailing view is they can just get a hand out from the taxpayer.
I seem to recall that journalists used to be paid by the word...
It's a little odd that you couldn't post something to entice folk to natter over the next week or so. Haven't there been any issues cropping up recently?
The Bank of England admits it underestimated the impact of the "credit-based-boom". That has political as well as financial implications. Especially when Brown's triumvirate of BoE, Treasury and FSA quite obviously had no clear plan for handling potential problems...
Senior policeman accuses a political party of corruptly encouraging information about a (possibly non-licenced) business being run from his home... (No way I'm defending any party - but it did seem rather odd!)
Purnell signs off a document suggesting that struggling people should only have loans if they pay in excess of 20percent APR...
Guess it's nice to work for the Beeb. In lots of other organisations, if a job's needed, then it gets covered when the occupant goes on leave. (And in quite a lot, people keep in touch via the Net.)
Pity you couldn't have arranged a "Guest Host".
Anyway. Happy Christmas. And I'm sure we'll are expect a fairly hairy New Year.
I was struck by the vigour with which Brown and Darling attacked the banks for failing to deliver enough money to be borrowed, after the dynamic duo had injected so much into their accounts.
Until the banks said that they hadn't actually received the money... I gather that will happen in the New Year.
I thought that the banks were in trouble exactly because they were lending money they didn't actually have.
So why were Brown and Darling... Oh, forget it.
Where's Ed Balls when you really need a rediculous comment to brighten your day?
And a happy Christmas to you too Nick. I hope you manage to switch off from all this political malarkey and have some quality time with your loved ones.
Happy Christmas, Nick. Perhaps you could spend the time considering your political affiliation. How much longer are you going to support the people who are ruining our country?
1. A proper sense of balance 2. A pair of ear plugs to blot out briefs from your Socialist masters 3. A pair of clear lenses for your spectacles to replace your Socialist rose tinted ones 4. A new pencil so that you can write some good copy about Mandy and yachts and state controlled police
Amazed that you do not consider that there is any political news to report currently. Robert Peston wouldn't give in so easily.
A half-hearted apology from Mr Quick (Bob to his friends - Home Secretary Jacqui Smith) to the Conservative Party. Not worth a mention really. Funny that the visit of 'Bob's' men to Damian Green was though!
Merry Christmas everyone and the very best for the coming year.
So while people will worried about their jobs, bills, mortgage etc Gordon and his red army go off for a few weeks. Off on some sun kissed beach to get away from it all. My what a hard life they have.
PS
The other day when I was opening my post I had a card from my local Charnwood MP Andy Reed. Now I have never voted Labour so why did I end up with such waste paper on my door mat? Is this just a waste of MP Andy Reeds wage which goes to show they get paid to much or will it come from expences just to try and win a vote? What ever it is what a waste of time money just go on in my recyling bin.
Yep, I think Nick Robinson has been a very good boy this year, and Santa Brown will empty his sack in Nicks living room. Everyone else, keep the peace, may love cover the globe.
England has been crushed, never to rise again, and those of you there who are waking up to the fact are getting pretty cross about it, apparently. It is all the fault of that Scottish prime minister, many are saying openly. No, the other one, the superhero who thinks he is saving the planet.
Not very far into the new year the blame game, as you call it, will really get going, as the pillars of the UK economy, such as they are, come tumbling down. The political parties will be at each other's throats. Middle England will be up in arms against the Scots, who will not be long in taking umbrage, of course, and all hell will break loose, basically. But why am I telling you what you already know?
Having observed and indeed measured the quality of the existing UK overlord authorities' administrative prowess - pardon me while I snigger - and the utter economic shambles, not to put too fine a point on it, that is in the process of enveloping your state and consuming its wealth, such as it is, I have concluded, in my transcendent wisdom, that there can be little doubt that you would all be much better off under an extra-terrestrial regime, warts and all, and it would have them. This would, of course, at least have the merit of offering you the protection of a greater power, which would be, needless to say, disinterestedly benign, as all overlordships claim to be, not wishing to alienate the subject people, as you know. Even the regime that was installed in 1940 in the land called France claimed to be benign, and some people there believed it.
What, you think on reflection that you would prefer not to be ruled by unscrupulous and duplicitously self-serving extra-territorial overlords who are unaccountable to you? One can hardly blame you, as that is how the Scots seem to feel about being ruled from England, and more so now that the UK state is plunging them deeper and deeper into debt and frittering all their oil wealth away on more and more UK government profligacy to keep you chaps in the style to which you have become accustomed. The party is over, as you will discover in the new year if you do not already know it.
#37 I had a question asked of Darling by Jon Sopel on the Politics Show - along the lines of how was the government going to tighten its belt in the downturn as we were all going to have to do the same?
Funnily enough he didn't answer that either, but it was the week before the PBR. He hasn't announced anything by way of announcing any belt tightening since though so I'm guessing government may need another hole put in said belt in the new year!
Well, Mr. Robinson, it would be churlish of me not to add seasonal greetings to you. For the new year, will you please explain why, this now elongated silence from 6pm 19.12.08., until goodness knows when next year has happened? You had much to say about the Damian Green affair and other Tory party members, mostly derogatory. Your comments relating to the Government were mostly complimentary, in a biased way. No-one should be able to 'Draw a line under', then 'Learn lessons from' and then 'Move forward' as happens so frequently. The Asst. Comm QUICK affair was amazing, in what was said and refuted so quickly. Surely you had a view on this? If not, why not?
Hope you find time to reflect on why so many posts are critical of your political neutrality and objectivity; or perhaps you can't be bothered, your job clearly depends on you keeping your nose clean with Brown, Mandelson et al.
as you seem to have left the blog with nothing for us to comment on then may I contribute to the filling of the void, that is if the wonderful moderators will let me.
I wonder why not more has been made that Mr de Menezes was shot and killed by policemen who used what are called dum-dum bullets.
Now my understanding is that dum-dum bullets were actually illegal. So, could somebody explain why such bullets were used, who authorised their use, and why nobody has faced prosecution for the use of illegal armaments, and finally are they now removed and destroyed from all operational use.
Merry Christmas, and a Happy and Prosperous New Year to everybody.
In his interview, Mr Blanchard said: "Temporarily cutting VAT, a measure that was adopted in Great Britain, does not seem to me to be a good idea - 2% less is not perceived by consumers as a real incentive to spend."
Olivier Blanchard, IMF chief economist
In contrast, he said a French plan aimed at encouraging consumers to buy cars was a good idea.
Nick, luckily you had already closed your shop when this statement came out. It would have been very challenging to report it in a positive light :-)
Season's greetings, anyway, and look forward to an eventful 2009.
P.S. I can already imagine CEH spending Xmas digging in his library trying to find an answer to the above statement
Have a great Christmas and a safe one. On the latter point, see our tax pounds - have a look at the item on the BBC news website - "Families warned of gravy dangers".
Ministers are warning us of the perils of exploding gravy, fat spilled on the cook trying to grapple with a big turkey and nasty cuts when chopping piles of vegetables. Not to mention tipsy guests crashing to the floor when they miss their seat at the dinner table". people cutting themselves with knives in the rush to open presents.
Make sure you pick up one of the 150,000 leaflets they have issued or you might not make it through the festivities.
McNulty seems to be the new Prescott but a bit nastier. Maybe this is the level required for the Brown Terror. I think he was on Newsnight recently where he did not come over as being very bright. He is probably in Mandelson's inner circle along with many others.
It is because there is no wrong time or place to keep reminding people of what is being done in our name.
Let me also take this opportunity to remind people that we are soon remembering the birth of the son of God. So, can we see how little has changed since his last visit. We still kill fellow human beings in greater numbers, and a lot of it seems to be still linked to religion. Great. can't wait for Easter when we remember that the same son of God actually died on the cross, for what? Yes, our sins.
Anybody want to remind me of why we went to war in Iraq? Sorry, wrong time and place. Or should I also ask to be reminded of when exactly Tony Blair converted to catholicism, oh that's right he didn't want any palavar.
So, I won't mention dum-dum bullets for a while, like in the new year, any ideas as to when it may be appropriate.
Wishing you all a merry Xmas, it's been fun jousting with you Tories and even more fun agreeing with my labour friends, we may be red or we may be blue and whatever colour liberals are under but we thankfully are still one nation, so good luck to you all and your families have a great Xmas and a happy new year.
A special merry Xmas and happy new year to my old friend Phoenixarisonq where ever he is, keep your powder dry old son. Hope to hear from you in the new year.
Only jocking, as far as those kill-joys go, let them get stuffed with lots of tasty food. Come the new year, there may not be so much of it around. Wishing everybody, even the moderators , a happy Xmas and lots of fun under the mistletoe!
No16 elrond. Has it it ever occurred to you, and other inquisitors, that Nick may not know what was discussed on the yacht. Could I suggest that you write directly to the Minister for an explanation. You may be very pleasantly surprised at the reply. Keep up the superb balanced reporting in the New Year Nick, the BBC is still the best broadcasting organisation in the world.
You are wrong, De Menezes was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Jesus was also in the wrong place at the wrong time if you believe in the STORY. And the reason De Menezes was killed was because of religion. A religion trying to forced on the western world by terror. Our police were trying to stop bombers killing.
I too cannot wait for Easter as it will be holiday time aslong as we all have a job.
Many thanks for your good wishes which are heartily given in return. I missed our debates whilst I was on holiday and hope you are well and preparing to return to the trenches after this seasonal truce!
It does seem a little odd that the IMF considers a reduction in VAT seems unlikely to deliver much benefit.
Or not.
There may be some corporate benefits in the VAT adjustment. But if government says that taking 4 pounds off a two hundred pound item is going to make a difference to people, they just don't get it. If you can't find something marked down by 10 - 40 percent, you just need to move to another shop...
I'd have thought that re-establishing the 10p tax-band - targeted at those on lower income - would have put more spendng money back into the market.
We know the government could introduce a "targeted" tax system, as mentioned in Darling's PBR:
"This will mean that where an individual’s income is below the £100,000 income limit, they will continue to be entitled to the (personal) full allowance. - Where an individual’s income is above the income limit of £100,000,the allowance will be reduced by £1 for every £2 above the income limit up to a maximum of one half of the basic personal allowance. - Where an individual’s gross income is above a second income limit of £140,000, the amount of their allowance will be further reduced by £1 for every £2 above the income limit up to a maximum of the full amount of the basic personal allowance."
From the HMRC web-site.
So why couldn't they simply say that where income was below GBP N,000 people could still receive a 10p tax band?
It would be technically simple. (Especially compared to the sliding scale stuff for the higher paid!) But it would have left Brown looking pretty stupid.
Which choice would have done more good for the poorer?
No wonder politicians get a bad press!!!
No wonder so many people seem to feel that Brown was no economist and seems more intent on personal aggrandisement than delivering to the people he claims to support.
Slainte Mhath my friend, peace and good will to you and your family.
Is there for honest poverty That hings his head, an a' that The coward slave we pass him-by We dare be poor for a' that For a' that an a' that Our toils obscure, an a' that The rank is but the guineas's stamp The man's the gowd for a' that.
I am just amazed that there is so little going on in the UK just now that Parliament is going into recess for so long. Shouldn't the government be held to account.
Anyone else notice how Gordon Brown tries to be away on Wednesdays?
this is where I have a problem with the spirit of Christmas. 'Our police were trying to stop bombers killing'.
Now I have to ask have people been reading the transcripts of the inquiry into the death of Mr de Menezes.
In my own considered opinion, for what it is worth, I have to say that I might agree with the theory that he was killed because of religion. However, whose religion are we really talking about. Consider how many innocent people have been shot and killed in this country, because they have been a perceived threat, since the death of de Menezes.
Gordon Brown, our great protector, has told us that the threat comes from Pakistan, and Afghanistan. He recently said that or am I wrong. So, could it possibly be de Menezes was shot and killed, using dum-dum bullets because he did not look like he was from either country. I believe that he died as an example to others, to show that our police will show no mercy, that they will shoot without warning, and that nobody will be held to be responsible. It will be down to the fog of war. Sometimes I am ashamed of what we allow in this country.
Merry Christmas everybody, whatever your political allegiances...
There's one final carol, I promise, before the big day itself...
We three Kings of Parliament are, One in the commons, one in the bar, Mass debating, Patiently waiting, Election day is still afar...
You know, I really do miss all the politicking over Christmas. The BBC news just isn't the same, with all the stories that wouldn't stand a chance of making the headlines during the rest of year...
#60 If he doesnt know, why not ? Did he attempt to find out? According to you all it would need for an explanation would be a letter to "The minister". Was such a letter sent by any of our so called impartial journalists ? If so what was the reply ? Why the silence on this issue when so much was made about Osborne ? All we are looking for is balanced reporting !
Any way Merry Xmas and to paraphrase Greg Lake " Hallelujah , Noel whether Heaven or Hell, the Politicians we get we deserve "
May I wish all bloggers to this site,political friend and foe the compliments of the season.
We must never forget,irrespective of our views,that the most important aspect of our political landscape is the right of people to democratically wespouse their views....we might not like everything we see on these nblogs,it is vitally important however,that assuming they are not scurrilous,fraudulent or libelous that we continue to be able to debate in the way that we do...
As for 2009 - it promises to be a momentuous year - and I have no doubt there will be many many twists and turns,peaks and troughs,scandals and exclusives before its end......
who knows we may even have a full-time Political Opposition Party....LOL...
Slainte Mhath my friend, peace and good will to you and your family.
Then let us pray that come it may (as come it will for a' that) That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth Shall bear the gree an' a' that For a' that an' a' that It's coming yet for a' that That man to man, the world o'er Shall brithers be for a' that
I must admit I am a little bit surprised at your choice of lyrics?
I detect from its attribution ("my readers") that you regard your column as a one-way medium - you pass on to us, your readers, after adding the merest personal slant, the lines handed down to a lobby correspondent. For which we must be truly grateful.
The comments and feedback are the ranting of mere mortals (with the occasional party stooges), not fit to soil the hem of your raincoat.
Strange isn't it that the RSPB (for instance) has more members than all our major and minor political parties combined. The esteem which our politicians hold themselves within the Westminster Village is not replicated in the small portion of the UK that exists without.
Thankfully government does not start and end with our Mother of Parliaments.
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this."
So at this time of year:
"Glory to God in the heavenly heights, Peace to all men and women on earth who please him"
let me give a bit of advice. Take a great interest into what is happening in Greece with the students. I think that it will be student revolution which will be the big story of 2009. The left is on the rise, they have been busy these last few years, they have not gone away. They watched and learnt, the troops will soon have to come back from Iarq and Afghanistan because they will be needed to keep control on our streets, let alone in occpied territories.
I commented earlier about the apparent inactivity of our Foreign & Colonial Secretary and erstwhile leadership challenger (denied) to engage with South Africa to confront the problem that is Robert Mugabe.
Well it appears that he has now had a letter published in the Times, in which he calls Mugabe a "stain on Zimbabwe".
A lion has roared, who will not be afraid?
My sympathies and apologies to everyone in Zimbabwe at Christmas.
It wasn't my intention to post anything here since, after all, it's the season of good will.
However, by chance a letter from my pension fund administrator arrived a few minutes ago. One third fall in value since 12 months ago. Thanks Gordon! 5 billion pounds taken from pension funds each year to pay for current spending so that Labour can boast how well the economy is performing.
My wife works in the public sector, but since she is paid only just above the minimum wage her pension is not going to be worth much either.
We are clearly two nations. Labour ministers and public sector fat cats who are immune from the recession; and everyone else.
I don't always agree with you, TAG, but I regret that not everyone has fire in their blood like you have. I don't think the British students will react to conditions here, or revolt like the Greeks. The students here have become as impotent and passive as most of their their parents. A surge of movement, even aggression when drunk, but the rest of the time indifferent, save for whinging. They have been bought by the benefits system, and now completely lack self-reliance and get up and go.
thought that I would let your readers know what some of us are doing whilst waiting for 'the big day' to arrive.
Preparing to write an OU assignment on Animal Rights and the Great Apes Project whilst listening to 'ARC-Weld' Neil Young, 'Cortez the Killer'.
What are others doing whilst politics is hibernating. I mean only some more companies gone into liquidation, but hey Mandelson, let's put some money into a car company which contributes towards the destruction of the planet. Ah, climate change, that's for the starving masses, not drivers of gas guzzlers.
Why Dum Dum bullets - It's an old Colonial Indian Army name for certain small arms ammunitions and which are banned within Nato military and in many countries? Because their projectile nose has a hollow head which "mushrooms" on impact and so doesn't penetrate a body so far, but which spreads and causes much more disruptive damage. It therefor has far greater "stopping power" when hitting a live target. Hence its use by certain police forces.
Just learned that the police secretly taped Damian green from the moment of his arrest until he arrived at the Police Station, without his knowledge.
"The Met said: "A tape sound recording was made of the MP's arrest and subsequent period in police charge, without his knowledge, prior to arrival at Belgravia Police station from Kent.
"This was authorised at superintendent level to provide an accurate record of anything that may have been said by officers or the MP over a period of nearly two and a half hours. "
The vicar has just brought our turkey. We have some nuts and a tangerine.
Maybe a sugar mouse if we are lucky and some gold chocolate coins.......
Off to the Carols by Candlelight later and the whole family gathered together tomorrow, fourteen of us all along a huge refectory table. Then we will listen to Her Majesty and hope Crash didn't write her speech.
Happy and a Holy Christmas to you all - whatever the colour of your politics!
I'm still tapping away at a book I've been scratching at for a while. (It seems to have turned into a trilogy - so there's a bit of jumping about between sections, when I get irritated with a particulat patch! Not a clever way to do it, but it's a bit of fun.)
Whatever the political circumstances, it would be good if Brown has a Happy Christmas. May bring him back with a more open mind...
Dum dum bullets are banned under international law - Hague Convention.
As the SAS were already involved in supervision, it is unlikely that the people who killed Menezes were police even Special Branch. Breaking the law has to be authorised at the highest level, and very few operatives have a 'licence to kill'.
Hey Nick -- why not finish off the run up to Christmas with a comment about the apparent missuse of police powers when they arrested Damian Green. This should be a major headline.
How does this government manage to get away with it. Raids on the House of Commons. MP arrested, taping etc...there must be no cover-up in the White House.
Do you know what really stinks, well to me it does, is the fact that nobody seems to be at all upset that the paid husband of Jacqui Smith writes letters to their local newspaper saying what a great Home Secretary she is.
As for Ed Balls and his wife Yvette Cooper? All I will say is housing allowances!
Finally, I also remember events in the North East with regard to corruption in the sixties and seventies. Has anything really changed, I don't know but something somewhere absolutely stinks. With every day that passes I feel more and more sickened, all of my illusions shattered, how terribly sad, I wonder how Gordon Brown can sleep at night, that son of the Manse. Shameful.
I've sent some of those nicely bound but totally blank books you can get in some bookshops as gifts to the great and good. A friend blocked some gilt titles on the spines so they will look good in the background in interviews. Here are the titles:
My Greatest Mistakes - Gordon Modesty - Balls Ontology (look it up) - Smith Phillips Atlas Of The World (Our Friends edition) - Milliband minor Debretts Charm For The Undead - Lord Mandy of Brazil The Tory Party Manifesto 2007 (deleted), 2008 (deleted) Spring 2009 (in pencil) - Dave Questions I Must Ask Rich Russians - George How To Fail With Woman - Nick What I Don't Know About The Economy - Vince Balance - the esteemed political correspondant of the BBC Elocution - Mr Peston
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran, is a man who makes the lives of minorities in Iran a misery. He denies the right of Israel to exist, and would nuke it happily, and is also a Holocaust denier. Christians in his unhappy country have to tread very delicately, never knowing what the knock at the door in the small hours will foretell. Channel 4, in its wisdom is offering this despot as an alternative to Queen Elizabeth II on Christmas Day. If this channel is funded, even partly by public money it is a disgrace, and the characters who run it should be immediately removed. It may not be fashionable, but I raise my glass to The Queen. G-d bless her!
for those who are looking for a better 2009, then I say abandon hope.
There is going to be a massive reduction in the overall wage of the population. Why? Because the great retirement nuclear time bomb is just going to start, not only in the UK but primarily in America.
I wish Obama good luck, but I'm afraid he has been handed such a poisoned chalice! When Hoover took over in America in 1929 the Americans actually thought that he could solve the problems which had become apparent in 1928, he didn't. Everything they tried failed, and then in the October the final nail was driven into the coffin.
The money has gone, wasted, thrown away, and America still wants to fight in Iraq and Afhanistan. They are so doomed, and the trouble is we have a Prime Minister who seems to revel in misery, misery of his own making. We are going to go down with him, this is going to be a failure of Titanic proportions.
TAG you could have waited at least until after the Christmas sales to remind us what 2009 is going to be like! Now you will be blamed for talking down our economy and disrupting Flash Gordon's grand plan to save the world. Shame on you!
Good morning. Now, all together, "All things bright and beautiful, all creatures great and small.....the Lord G-d made them all". Yes. even Flash Gordon. So smile!!!!!
You are of course absolutely right. The trouble is that I do see that the emperor has no clothes, hope that he is enjoying his Christmas, every waking minute being spent on saving us, yep, course I believe in the great leader.
Trouble is he still lacks any legitimacy, even Mugabe went to the polls, even though he didn't win. Brown is gutless, and I regard him as a coward, which is why he hides behind the military. Shame on him.
I want a formal Prime Ministerial statement explaining the purpose of our Afghanistan adventure. Gordon Brown is a disgrace and should explain what the point is, in absolute terms, because all I can see is wasted lives, on both sides. When one of our soldiers dies, explain how many so-called insurgents have died as well.
isn't it starnge. Do you think that an awful lot of the people who contribute to your blog are actually paid professionals and that they are now on holiday.
Just because it is Christmas doesn't mean that the world should stop.
It is now some months since I suggested a government of National Unity. Isn't it funny that many so-called experts are now beginning to realise that there will be one. However, maybe George Osborn will no longer be my preferred leader.
True, Iran has its faults, and serious ones, at that, but its also one of the oldest civilised countries in the world. The US and Britain have a long way to go to catch up with it. Moreover, Ahmedinejad is democratically elected, whereas you are toasting a feudal unelected hereditary Anglo-German head of state, whose family is extremely wealthy and militaristic in outlook and association. Ahmedinejad comes from a very modest background.
I respect Channel 4's decision to air his message, although I didn't watch it. The last thing we need in the UK is more censorship. The BBC is very reluctant to allow publication of any views which question Israel's right to exist. Based on history it is more than debateable that Israel has a moral right of existence in the territory it occupies. Moreover, it is a state which is arguably racist, though claiming democratic credentials, it refuses to allow the return of refugees who fled the terrors they were subjected to in 1948 when Israel unilaterally declared itself to be a state. Its treatment of the Palestinians can only be described as atrocious, down to today, as it is bombing a defenceless and starving Gaza at this very moment.
I very much doubt if the BBC will publish this comment, even though yours is even more biased than mine.
I have just listened to the News. It would appear that Israel is trying to make a point prior to Obama taking over as President.
There can be no justifification for their actions in terrorising the people of Gaza with an attack by the Israeli airforce, resulting in, from what I have heard the deaths of at least 120 people.
This is totally unacceptable and is taking advantage of the Christmas break by our politicians. Gordon Brown must see that there is more to being our Prime Minister than worrying about the economy. That is his problem, he is still thinking of himself in terms of being chancellor, well I have to tell him that there is more to it than money. We rae talking lives here, and he just sits back smiling like a cheshire cate because he saved the world. Well he hasn't.
Happy Christmas, Nick, or is it? The world doesn't take a break!
One wonders where the Rt Hon David Miliband, Britain's Foreign Secretary is at this moment. Same goes for the US Secretary of State, Condoleeza Rice.
Do we hear them condemn the disproportionate attacks on the defenceless and starving inhabitants of Gaza this morning, by the Israeli air force? Are there calls for the bombing to cease, against what is the most densely populated area on earth, which has been made into the biggest concentration camp or ghetto in the world by the Israelis?
I recall that it was the same in 2006 when Israel destroyed the infrastructure of Lebanon, killing countless innocent civilians, including 1200 children, all because two Israeli soldiers had been kindapped. The right wing New Labour government of Blair and Brown was silent then, as it is now. Blair even allowed the US to transit massive bombs through UK airports to destroy targets in the Lebanon.
Over the festive period US and British forces have been targeting civilians in Afghanistan, which are being killed in increasing numbers, according to Hamid Karsai, their President. Not a very happy Christmas for them, Nick, or for the families of the marines who died, either.
Is it surprising that the British and the Americans are despised in so many parts of the world, and consequently it is much less safe for any of us. Who should we blame?
I know where I place the responsibility. Imho, it lies with the incumbents of the White House and 10 Downing Street.
What a nasty expression to use, brynt41. With your obvious hate of the USA, I'm surprised you use a word which is popular amongst the rougher elements of that great country. I would have thought that if you wanted to insult me, you would have selected asomething from the vocabulary of the late Harold Pinter. Or is even he, too much for your obviously uneducated and uniformed mentality? I suggest you ask my Christian Iranian friends what they think of Ahmedinejad. Coming from a "modest" family hardly guarantees goodness. Neither Hitler nor Stalin came from wealthy, aristocratic families. Concerning the bombing of Gaza, were you ever concerned about Israeli civilians being targeted by Hamas? I think you have a very limited world view, and suggest if you are interested in the Middle East, you ask why the Jews from Arab lands found a home in Israel, and why their goods, and in many cases their lives were taken by fanatical Moslem populations? Finally, the Royal Family doesn't do any harm, far less than those who I am pretty certain you support. I hope 2009 will bring you a little wisdom.
"This is totally unacceptable and is taking advantage of the Christmas break by our politicians"
Jews and Muslims are having one of their seasonal punch-ups and you think that they should really care about whether or not a bunch of British politicians are celebrating a Christian holiday?
One should also, of course, point out the fact that Brown - and the rest of his lame government - are totally irrelevant. Here is Britain nobody with any sense gives a tinker's cuss about Brown and Co. Why would foreigners - whose lives depend are on the line - even give him the time of day?
As for brynt41, TAG and others who may castigate Israel:
The Arab/Muslim world has over twenty states from the Atlantic Ocean in the west to Indonesia in the East.
Most of them are repressive, authoritarian dictatorships, one-party and/or theocratic states, or despotic monarchies. None of them believe in or exercise what we call liberal-democratic values. Women are usually de-facto second class citizens.
The Iranians may be democratic in that they overthrew the secular despotic Shah and instead voted in a repressive theocratic regime. A case of 'Out of the frying pan into the fire'?
The Palestinians have been used as a political football by their Arab 'brothers' since long before 1948 (The 'Hashemite Kingdom of Trans-Jordan' was carved out of British Mandatory Palestine some years before the creation of Israel. Jordan annexed the West Bank after the 1948-9 first Israel-Arab war). And, as was famously said, the Palestinian 'leadership' never loses an opportunity to lose an opportunity.
While from 1949 hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were rotting in refugee camps, Israel successfully absorbed greater numbers of Jewish refugees expelled from arab states such as Morocco, Iraq, Yemen, etc. All a matter of attitude and priorities.
Question: If Israel were to disappear tomorrow would all these countries suddenly become beacons of tolerance and enlightenment?
now the Israelies are more asking for a retaliation from Iran. Listen to the Israeli Foreign Minister #123. I will not sleep well tonight.
While our government sleeps serious stuff is going off, this is not acceptable. The re must be an urgent meeting of the UN Security Council. In the meantime, don't forget, DR Congo, Zimbabwe, Dafur, Chad/Cameroon, China, Afghanistan, Iraq, soon be WWIII at this rate.
Hoping you're continuing to enjoy your break. Nothing much happening - no new polls, no major speeches, not even any letters to the Times to report.
We've got some bishops being a little too critical of Our Beloved Leader, but it's a quiet news day and surely no one takes them seriously.
Apart from that just a couple of hundred people killed in air strikes, but seeing as none of them have second homes in Westminster, so they don't really count. People are still dying of cholera in Southern Africa, but that's what they do there, isn't it?
Funny, but there seems to be a reasonable level of debate going on this blog at the moment. No accusations of bias, no one "unmasked" as being professional stooges. It's all getting too nice - and people are in danger of Getting Ideas (but the moderators will soon deal with that).
As it's so quiet why not extend your break for another couple of weeks? You can check here occasionally to see what's happen...
Ah, sorry. Yes, you'll get a call. Silly me.
"Hello Nick, we were thinking about ..... and need to gauge some reactions. Do you think you can get something on your blog, in let's say thirty minutes?"
"Of course, Peter, give me the gist of what you want to say and I'll send it out straight away".
You overlook that the festival of Hanukah has already started and supposedly of more relevance to the state of Israel than Christmas.
However, I would suggest that these airstrikes are timed more to coincide with the last days of a sympathetic administration in the White House, who might be more prepared to step in should there be any retaliation or reprisals.
More of the poisoned chalice they are going to be handing over to Obama. This is just so sad, people apparently wanting change, well they will get change ok but it will be for the worse.
This is a slowly evolving car crash. In the meantime the death count is rising.
As for Afganistan how is it that the only soldiers on our side who get killed are the ones who are the perfect soldier, the ones with the brightest future, the ones who will be missed. How is that all of our soldiers seem so perfect. Are there no bad apples left in the army?
As for their photos, how about pictures of them standing over the dead insurgents, they must be killing some of them, or is this all one sided. When we lose one how many have they lost, are they not fighting for their freedom, after all we are the invaders. This is their country, we are the enemy, we are not the good guys, remember, we do bad things to bad people, well Harry seems to think so anyway. Is he not surprised when they do likewise.
So, in his New Year speech Gordon the Golem is going to tell us that the coming year will be a "test of character for the British". If we make it through okay, it will be due to the guidance of this latter day Messiah and if it all goes breasts up it'll be the fault of the people. They just weren't up to the challenge. It sounds a bit like Hitler blaming the Germans for defeat in World War II, so maybe that's the war time leader the Golem is sounding like? Yes, if it all goes wrong it'll be because the British people weren't worthy of their great leader. They'd have failed him. Is it too much to hope for a shot in the Downing Street bunker?
"He is due to criticise governments leading the country through past downturns and say they blundered by cutting investment.
Mr Brown is expected to insist: "This will not happen on my watch. "
So there it is then, the current problem is nothing to do with Gordon Brown and his government. Spending out of control? Not relevant. It's all the fault of Mrs Thatcher. Once again Mr Brown is in denial so nothing changes, the "Master of the Universe" is still on his own little planet. Well we don't believe him. He is beginning to sound more and more like "Uncle" Bob Mugabe. Does he share the same speech-writer?
Yes, I'm like several previous posters: utterly incensed to hear today that Gordon Brown has the screaming audacity to exhort us to adopt a WWII blitz mentality in the face of an impending economic and social nightmare - of his own making!!! Who in hell does he think he is?
This guy gets more detached from reality with each passing day; he's lost the plot as far as I'm concerned. If his shower of incompetents aren't turfed from office without further ado, then our problems during 2009 will not be so much about economic challenges, but more about the consequences of dealing with very angry, disaffected citizens.
I can barely believe that Brown has the brass-necking nerve to talk such rot and expect us to rally behind him as if he's some sort of, er, saviour of the world? The man's an idiot.
There could be an interesting "achievement" for the Government during the coming couple of years.
In the depression, people in the private sector will sadly lose their jobs. Others who remain in work will see minimal wages growth - indeed may be asked to take a cut. Bonuses will be cut. People trying to enter the jobs market will be unable to do so. So average (median) income levels is likely to drop significantly.
State benefits and credits are so far expected to remain where they are.
So in the relative terms beloved of politicians (static income v dropping median), there may be more "Children dragged out of Poverty"...
World saver Brown was born in 1951 so how could he know what spirit was shown by the Brits in WW2.
The British public took on a man who was hell bent on power who would not listern to anyone apart fom himself. A man who said he would do one thing and then change his mind to please himself. A man who thought he could save, then rule the world, a man who spent millions on building a country up just to see it fall to its knees and crumble at the end and then see the public and his party followers leave him in his final days.
Hold on, who have I have writtern about, Brown or Hitler?
can we see the Gordon Brown speech today please. It seems it is being well trailed, bit like the Queen's speech was well trailed. I don't mean her Christmas speech either, I meant the one the Queen was meant to have given to parliament.
Like others before me when will people realise just how detached Gordon Brown has become from reality. They have now taken my advice and acknowledged that there is no point in giving money to Jaguar/Land rover. How dared they even have considered it when tens of thousands of women workers in Woolworths have lost everything.
If there is one ounce of decency left in Gordon Brown then he will call an urgent general election, the man, and his government is a disaster. Please put us out of our misery.
Finally, don't get us deeper into the mire which is Afghanistan, Iraq was a disaster but this is going to be even worse.
I also understand what you mean about Jaguar/Landrover but more jobs will go if they are not helped. I work at a place were we make plastic for Landrover. If Landrover go we will have more job losses because of Landrover going bust. When Woolies goes I dont think many of its workers would have brough a new Landrover. I hope ex Woolies worker would find jobs at the same pay rate else where.
I know what your going to say, where do we stop if we help everyone its a tough one. I was made redundant so I do understand what ex Woolies staff are going through.
Hopefully this time next year we'll have seen an election, a hung parliament and a government truly of the best of talents truly dedicated to sorting the country out.
Unfortunately, I forsee more dithering prevarication and plenty of "recovery is just round the corner" messages while the country slides further into the abyss.
If I was a politician, I think the best buy of 2009 would be a tin hat in order to protect them from the angry hoardes in 2010.
Gordon's latest spiel continues with the effort to paint him as a cross between Churchill, Moses and The Good Samaritan pausing only to try to jump on the Obama bandwagon.
It is risible but, incredibly, it seems to work with much of the audience which is the UK population.
For me, with Gordon and Labour, it is not so much "Yes we can" as "Yes you did" - on gold sales, stealth taxes, private sector pensions, public sector pensions, balance of payments, collapsing pound, financial regulation regime, "no more boom and bust" profligacy, public finances, Iraq, spin, special advisers, Parliament devalued, anti-terrorism laws used to pursue MPs/octogenarian/Icelandic banks
139. At 1:19pm maggyisgod wrote: I have read these comments on Brown and does anyone agree with what he has said this time?
-------------------------------------------------------- On #113, the rather crude brynt 41 accused me of being a sucker for US and British propaganda. In reply to maggyisgod, may I assure her I am not certifiable! Have a Happy New Year and may that brown, blob of a cloud pass from the face of the sun!!!
So thanks to "authorised leaks" (as opposed to "unauthorised leaks" which precede a visit from the Met's anti-terror unit), we are all spared watching the Prime Minister grinding his jaw while he delivers his "blood, sweat and tears" New Year speech.
Amazing coincidence that he will allude to the second world war, the same allusion as made in Nick's last "proper" blog. If one didn't know any better, one might think they came from the same source...
"I believe the British people will show those who talk them down exactly what they are made of in 2009."
I hope so too. We may now have one of the weakest economies in the developed world, thanks to the present incumbent at no.10, but I hope that the British people can rid themselves of this bunch of incompetents and hold all our politicians to greater account in 2009.
But I do wonder why we don't see as many emphatic posts in support of Gordon Brown as we see damning him?
Where are all the fervent Brown supporters setting out the evidence for the excellent job he's made of being Chancellor of the Exchequer and more lately First Lord of the Treasury?
Surely, those of us who feel that Brown's been a disaster for this country must have chinks in our armour somewhere? I really would like to read some clear examples of Gordon's Brown deeds that have positioned this country for a bright economic, social and political future.
"...... I really would like to read some clear examples of Gordon's Brown deeds that have positioned this country for a bright economic, social and political future."
In the first few years, I was quite impressed that Brown had kept a lid on public spending. (OK, he'd committed to follow Ken Clarke's budget approach, but he did so...)
He paid down a bit of National Debt.
He ignored some of the crass Balir suggestions (e.g. marching offenders to the nearest cash-point to pay fines...).
Later, he introduced the 10p tax-band.
But then...
He reverted to type.
Social consciousness and involvement was replaced by "State intervention" in the family, child care, education, etc.
He did away with the 10p tax-band. (Quite unnecessarily - he could have kept it if he'd wanted, by making it contingent on income being below a threshold).
Went on a totally unmanaged spending spree (much of which is not even recognised on the UK's balance sheet).
Ripped up any genuine regulation of financial institutions.
Believed that "spending" was equivalent to "investment". (Simple lack of any experience in management in a commercial environment. I mean, if a CEO or Finance Director justified corporate results by saying "Don't worry about return on investment, folks. Just look how much we spent this year. We MUST be doing well", he'd get pretty short shrift.)
I'm sure he has good social intentions. Just a complete lack of understanding that making money - creating wealth - is a lot harder than using legalised robbery to take money from people.
More than any Government I've survived, this lot seems to believ that "to legislate" is a functional equivalent of "to do"!
Goodness, if the progress of the UK could be measured by the rate of introduction of legislation and regulation imposed over the last decade, we would be living in the most successful economy of all time.
Surely somebody in this bunch can realise that "writing it down" doesn't do the real job?
Just goes to show that the "road to Hell is paved with good intentions".
The problem is that we've bred - and "educated" -a generation that believes that "the Government" should / will provide. A bunch who just don't get it.
Don't realise that in our society, Governments don't actually have any cash to spray around, unless they've taken it from individuals.
Who don't realise that those taxes on corporations' profit actually DO make a difference to them.
After all, corporation tax is a cost-of-doing-business. So if companies pay, we - as consumers - have to pay just a bit more for every transaction the next time we buy.
I'm personally quite happy to pay tax, if the money is used well.
I see no reason to constantly jack up the rate of pay for "executives" in central / local government or QANGOs.
I'd like to see some published figures to support Darling's claim that, over the years, billions of "efficiency savings" have been made.
In commercial life, a saving means you don't need as much intake/outgoings for a while. So why do (or at least did) tax takings have to constantly rise?
The man's an economic buffoon.
Save the world's banks? Well thanks. By stuffing up everyone except those in government-supported work?
Well, I don't really care too much about banks I can't control.
But if the FSA (Brown's creation) had worked at even 80 percent efficiency, many UK banks would never have been allowed to get into the mess they are in.
Northern (Labour heartland) Rock had a crass business model. The FSA was aware of it, but hey, it's a long way from London and in LabourLand, so we shouldn't really care too much about that...
So we're seeing a sharp downturn in private sector income. OK. Let's see Brown negociate a 5 percent drop in public sector pay costs. That could be by simply reducing overall numbers or by actual pay-cuts. (Or by making people pay more for pensions...)
I've nothing against public workers. Where they do things that are essential. Just think that there are too many people employed to do stuff that is only justified by a splurge of legislation that is unnecessary, unproductive and unwanted.
(And sadly, unchallenged in Parliament, as the flow of documents means that nobody actually understands exactly what has been introduced. I still believe that NO MP should be permitted to vote or nod throug any piece of legislation, without having to sign an affidavit that he/she has read the detail, understands it and has considered the consequences. On pain of perjury, if said MP can't explain any random 10 of the 1500 to 1800 regulations that pour forth every year. As I've said many times, that would slow the buggers down...)
I have been made redundant in the past and I know that it is not a very nice experience. In fact it happened to me three days after I was married, so that really messed up my plans. Did I see it coming, yes, and do you know what one of the directors actually asked me would I mind delaying my marriage so that I could train somebody to do my job. we had just been merged so there were two people for one job and I was the higher paid.
As for Jaguar/Land Rover, there must be no bail out by the British taxpayer. Another firm gone, Adams, this time with more jobs at risk. The total weakness of the British economy is being exposed for what it is, a complete and total disaster. In the meantime look at the price of oil, heating bills must come down, all the companies which put up their prices because of the increases in oil prices must also bring down their prices. In the meantime the spivs, known as the labour government, want to fight them on the beaches, etc...
Gordon Brown must, with no prevarication tell Israel to stop the killing in Gaza, he is the Prime Minister, prove it, get out of the kitchen and tell Israel to stop, stop now! I am so ashamed to have call the awful man my Prime Minister, he's nothing but a gutless sham of a man. Get out now, and get our soldiers out of Iraq and Afghanistan.
Your comparison is not only wholly wrong but odious.
Any attempt at equivalence of the actions and intent of the Israelis with that of the Nazi Germany prior and during WW2 demonstrates both a stunning lack of historical knowledge combined with appalling moral bankruptcy.
I am sure your suggestion sends terror into that brave little country Israel. Not enough the Iranians and all the fanatical arab states. You, an English gentleman wish to send that ultimate weapon in, Gordon Brown! Noooooo!
Yup. Indeed, it is quite staggering the speed with which our political infrastructure, economic positioning in the world and general administrative competence has collapsed under this Labour government. Just amazing.
It was of course initially conceived and led by Blair and his dodgy coterie of spin doctors: they set about trivialising the work of governing the UK and treating it as one big celebrity-style marketing campaign - the aim of which was always simply to secure power and hold on to it as an end in itself.
There was never any question of properly leading the country to a better way of life - "a good life" for the good people of the UK. The idea was to get in to power, hold on to it, indulge the Party, use patronage to strengthen the political grip, grow the client state and so make the process of governing become one huge exercise in feeding the beast.
Now the beast has become a monster and we're all about to be dragged down as the monster collapses, like it was always destined to do, of course. Pity the Tory Party has been invisible throughout this era.
Gordon Brown is confident about his leadership in 2009 The recession is a test of character the British people must pass, Gordon Brown is set to say.
In next week's New Year message, the prime minister is expected to urge the public to "display the same spirit" as their predecessors did in World War II.
He will also describe US president-elect Barack Obama as a "catalyst" for tackling global issues.
And Mr Brown will demand that the public work together in an effort to build a "better tomorrow".
Britain's way
Mr Brown will call on Britain to "rise to the challenge" of the economic crisis.
But he will highlight his confidence in the future of the country, saying: "Today the issues may be different, more complex, more global.
"And yet the qualities we need to meet them the British people have demonstrated in abundance before.
"So that we will eventually look back on the winter of 2008 as another great challenge that was thrown Britain's way, and that Britain met.
"Because we had the right values, the right policies, the right character to meet it."
He is expected to proclaim that Britain is not "broken" but the "best country in the world" and say: "I believe the British people will show those who talk them down exactly what they are made of in 2009 - as we build tomorrow today."
Please understand is an extract from the comment which the Great Leader will give as part of speech to the country to celebrate the New Year.
What an absolute load of tosh.
What is the point in saying I will give a speech next week, but here are extracts from it. What sort of idiot is this man?
It is bizarre, it is beyond parody, it is pathetic.
Curiously, Gordon the Golem is unable to articulate what these "qualities" the British people "possess in abundance" are. Probably because he has no flaming idea. It's just meaningless platitudes. But isn't it strictly similar to the following:
"The year 1944 will make tough and severe demands of all Germans. The course of the war, in all its enormity, will reach its critical point during this year. We are fully confident that we will successfully surmount it."
Yes, the only "war time" leader Brown (or should we say "Braun") is sounding like is Herr Hitler.
Standard stuff for a spin-obsessed political party. They'll test reaction to the trailer - see how the media reacts - and then adjust the pitch, tone and targeted coverage accordingly. If the media reaction is favourable they'll go for it; if reaction is adverse then the whole thing will be played down. We've seen it all before.
It's called government-by-cynicism and is the only style of government this shower knows. Treat us all as idiots and role play to the gallery. Seems to have worked for Labour thus far given the number of people that still think Gordon and his team are just the ticket for saving the UK from Armageddon (brought to us courtesy of, er, Gordon and his team ...).
You only have to look a pension provision to see the cowardice at the heart of the Golem. Before the Golem most corporate pension schemes were in rude health, with a surplus due to diligence on the part of the trustees (with the notable exception of the Labour supporting Robert Maxwell, of course), while successive governments ignored the coming crisis in public sector pension provision. So, seeing an easy target for his bullying tactics, the Golem set about raiding those successful schemes by taxing them and all but wiping them out. Meanwhile, of course, every attempt to reform public sector pensions was cowardly backed out of at the first sign of trouble, leaving the tax payer with a massive (and given the rate at which the Golem has put people of the government's payroll) and growing problem.
Well, I doubt the Israelis are listening, since all they hear and adhere to is the voice of violence. They take advantage of collective Holocaust guilt to commit massive crimes and it's about time they were brought to heel.
I predicted the riots in the early years of the Thatcher government. I was a spotty teenager and I and those around me saw a country broken by Old Labour. The opportunities our fathers had when they were our age had vanished thanks to mismanagement. I have an 18 year old son and I see history repeating itself for him. We have had successive governments that cared more about political dogma and their own personal interests than they ever did about the country or its population. This country has been stripped of its wealth and ruined by professional politicians. Its time for the ordinary people to take their country back before the government close the door and lock it tight for good with surveillence and anti-terror legislation. The government know and fear this. There will be pivotal, historic moments in the coming year. The first act is for the population at large to demand a vote of no confidence in Gordon Brown and his cronies and force him to the polls. The second is for every one of us to vote for their local independant candidate, not anyone allied to the main parties.
Israel has not turned Gaza into "the Warsaw Ghetto" as you claim.
Just to bring you up to speed, as you clearly have no idea of recent history. Israel actually withdrew all its forces from Gaza in September 2005. Negotiations were already underway for a two state solution and the creation of a Palestinian State.
Power was shared in Gaza between Hamas and Fatah, but Hamas then staged a coup, forcing out elected Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. Although President Abbas was willing to negotiate with Israel, Hamas will not even recognise Israel. Hamas does not want a 'two state solution' - but only wishes to destroy Israel.
The 'brave' Hamas fighters have fired hundreds of rockets across the border into Israel, but position themselves amongst dense civilian population, effectively using their own people as human shields. To get some idea of the real intentions of Hamas, you need only look at how they teach their children to continue the hatred.
We should all be very concerned about the current bloodshed is Gaza and seek a peaceful solution, but I wonder why so many people were silent before now?
Yes, Israel withdrew it's forces from the Gaza Strip and then proceeded to effectively turn it into a massive concentration camp. The behaviour of the Israelis is shameful. But no doubt some poor soul filled on a guilt trip over the Holocaust (yes, it happened, but to allow Israel to play havoc using it as a shield isn't on) will report this post to the moderators.
"effectively turn it into a massive concentration camp"
You really do yourself no favours with these inaccurate claims. If you know anything about the concentration camps of WWII, millions of people were rounded up and herded into gas chambers. The intention was mass extermination.
Today, Hamas and President Ahmadinejad of Iran seek to exterminate Israel and wipe it off the map.
The reason the wall was built was in response to continued suicide bombings. Israel has stated its desire only for a negotiated peace within secure borders, but Hamas continues to launch attacks and to derail the peace process.
Hamas does not want a 'Two-State' solution. That is the 'inconvenient truth' that you apparently choose to ignore.
I think everyone would like to see the wall removed and a peaceful relationship with all neighbouring countries. Unfortunately, at the moment, Hamas has other ideas.
But no doubt some poor soul filled on a guilt trip over the Holocaust (yes, it happened, but to allow Israel to play havoc using it as a shield isn't on) will report this post to the moderators.
It is Hamas that is using ordinary people as a shield for its rockets that is propagating this situation. If The Scots or The Welsh were firing rockets at towns near our borders wouldn't you expect The Government to take swift and decisive action?
I have just been reading some comments of Brown saying the British spirit of WW2, now dont take this the wrong way (and if you do tough) but the british public in the 30's and 40's were from Britain not from all over the world.
When you have folks from all over the world who are her for what they can get out of the system and not willing to take on the our culture will that spirit that Brown hopes and needs shine through?
It is Hamas that is using ordinary people as a shield for its rockets that is propagating this situation. If The Scots or The Welsh were firing rockets at towns near our borders wouldn't you expect The Government to take swift and decisive action? I AGREE COMPLETELY.
165. alexandercurzon
I go to Gaza two to three times a year.
AND DO YOU BRING AID AND COMFORT TO THE VICTIMS OF FANATIC TERRORISTS? E.G. THE VICTIMS AT MIKE'S BAR IN TEL AVIV? THE UK VICTIMS IN THE LONDON TERROR BOMBINGS?
1) a misguided attempt to appeal to middle england (as 42 days was)
2) trying to find another way to justify ID cards
3) the hand of mandelson/campbell focusing us non-believers on theoretical issues rather than economic woe (which rightly or wrong is going to be blamed on any current administration)
My hopes for 2009: 1 A general election 2Conservatives sweeping to power 3Brown and Blair jailed for treason 4England to win the Ashes 5-0 (at the rate the Aussies are slipping, I reckon that one couldbe a dead cert!) 5finding ot EXACTLY how deep in the doodoo Labour has left this country 6start to repair the damage for my childrens children.
"Gaza has become a Ghetto and its similar to the Warsaw ghetto.
A people being surpressed by a overwhelming force.I often wonder when extermination wil;l get into swing."
Such hyperbolic statements only serve to prove your ignorance of history and inability to discern truth from propaganda.
You may have indeed visited Gaza, but you were obviously 'eyeless'. The only alternative explanation is that you are a willing participant in the distortion of truth and reality in support of your prejudices.
If The Israelis were bombing The Palestinians behind a shield of residential houses, schools and hospitals I would be very quick to condemn them for their actions. The fact is that they aren't but their opponents most definitely are and they are now regrettably reaping the awful consequences. It's a sad fact also that many of these human shield residents have been recruited into The Hamas ranks and must therefore expect to be treated as enemies if they step over the mark and continue to launch rocket attacks against The Israelis in their back yard. The plain fact is that these terrorists really only understand one language and it doesn't involve getting round a table to discuss their grievances. They won't be happy until Israel is totally annihilated and that just ain't going to happen.
Has anyone else noticed the almost complete lack of pro-Labour bloggers on here in the last week? You all know who the usual suspects are, but they are noticable by their absence.
Now, could it possibly be that a good number of them are paid as part of a Labour rebuttal unit and they have shut for business until the new year? Or can't receive their orders from Mr Mandelson as he is too busy enjoying the largesse with Nat Rothschild at Klosters?
169. At 10:11am on 29 Dec 2008, alexandercurzon wrote: 167 phoenix.....
So youre HAPPY to see Palestinians suffer then?
MEDICAL AID?? WHAT DO YOU THINK THE RED CROSS DO?
I am not, unlike you, happy to see anybody suffer. Regarding your trips to Gaza, if there is a Red Cross (arabs use Red Crescent) why are you faffing about there? Sadly, the Red Cross failed to identify the true conditions in many prison and concentration camps in World War II, and as it is composed of humanbeings, is not always completely objective in its findings.
"Hamas does not want a 'Two-State' solution. That is the 'inconvenient truth' that you apparently choose to ignore."
The evidence points to Israel not wanting a two-state solution. The Israeli settlements, infrastructure and hundreds of checkpoints in the West Bank and East Jerusalem testify to that. David Ben Gurion understood the need to cleanse the territory of ancient Israel (the Old Testament Northern and Southern Kingdoms) of its indigenous (pre-Zionist era) inhabitants (Moslem and Christian) as there would never be peace for Israel while any remained.
Israel's first legislative act, after its unilateral creation in May 1948, was the Law of Return, which allowed (allows) anyone of Jewish descent from anywhere in the world, the right to Israeli citizenship and to live in Israel. Conversely, the Palestinians who fled from their own land during the war of 1948-49, after such incidents as the Deir Yassin massacre, were not allowed to return to their homeland when hostilities ended. These people became refugees in permanent camps outside of Israel, where many of them and their descendants still live today.
The Law of Return was/is essentially racist in its purpose and effect, although it uses religion as a cloak.
Britain which created the problem, as it occupied Palestine after the Great War, and obtained a Mandate from the League of Nations (a body created by Britain, the US and France) to administer Palestine after 1921. Britain then allowed and encouraged tens of thousands of European Jews to settle in Palestine, even giving them land. After WWII both Arabs and Zionists turned on the British. Typically Britain tried to wash its hands of the problem and asked the fledgling UN to sort it - another body created by the victorious Allies. The UN came up with the idea of partitioning Palestine to be put to both sides. The United States pressurised many smaller UN members to vote for the Partition Plan. Britain sat on the fence, and abstained. When the Plan was approved by the UN it was put to the Palestinians and the Zionists. Naturally, the Palestinians rejected it, because they would lose half their country. However, the Zionists unilaterally declared the State of Israel, which was immediately recognised by the US.
The UN had no power to give the land to the Zionists. It had/has no land to give to anyone. To have effect the Plan would have had to be accepted by both sides. Therefore, the creation of Israel had no legal basis in international law. Its de facto recognition and massive economic and military support by the US ensured Israel's survival to the present day. It is not a viable state without US economic aid. Since Bush came to power, the US has vetoed every UN resolution which criticised Israel.
Persecution of the Palestinians has continued in the territories Israel occupied during the 1967 War, in defiance of many UN resolutions and international law. It has allowed, even encouraged, Israelis to settle on large parts of the West Bank. Its taken control of water supplies and roads in the WB, and has built the massive Wall of Separation, much of it on Palestinian land, separating families and farmers from their land and children from their schools. It has several hundred checkpoints where Palestinians are harassed and delayed endlessly. Israel has about 10,000 Palestinian political prisoners in its jails.
Israel does not want the tiny Gaza Strip, as its not a part of their 'historic' biblical nation. Today its the most densely populated area on earth with one and a half million people defenceless people, which have no army, air force or navy. It is cut off from the rest of the world, access totally controlled by Israel. We don't get independent press/media reports from Gaza because the Israelis won't allow their correspondents or cameras in. Its population is close to starvation, and there are hardly any medical supplies. It is a ghetto. This week Israel has been using F16 aircraft (supplied by the US) to bomb its crowded streets, killing over 300 people so far.
What the Nazis did to the Jews of Europe was appalling, words fail to describe it. The world turned a blind eye to it in the 1930s and 40s.
The West has not only turned a blind eye, but has even endorsed the awful treatment meted out to a wholly innocent people who were unfortunate enough to live in a land coveted by others. Its ironic that a once persecuted minority is now the bully, backed by the world's biggest bully.
177 You only appear to want to see Israelis suffer. You contradict yourself by denying medical help is needed whenever terrorists attack, since the Red Cross accepts this responsibility. By the way. out of interest, who finances your thrice a year jaunts imto Gaza? Is it a political agenda?
For the Jews, the first and most obvious 'lesson from history' is that they need an independent state of their own in their ancestral homeland.
The second lesson is that when 'push comes to shove', present and atavistic hatreds will prevail and that they should not put their faith (or future) in the hands of the 'gentiles'.
As I have written many times before, the Arab/Muslim world has over twenty states from the Atlantic Ocean in the west to Indonesia in the East.
Most of them are repressive, authoritarian dictatorships, one-party and/or theocratic states, or despotic monarchies. None of them believe in or exercise what we call liberal-democratic values. Women are usually de-facto second class citizens.
If Israel were to disappear tomorrow would all these countries suddenly become beacons of tolerance and enlightenment?
Nobody has yet even attempted to provide an affirmative answer.
If the people you talk of are so innocent and defenceless why do they in spite of repeated warnings not to do so lay themselves open to retaliation by persistently firing rockets at southern Israeli towns. Surely common sense should dictate that at some point The Israelis are goung to lose their rag and take positive action to stop them.
On the third day of attacks an estimate of 300+ killed in Gaza and reports from Israel claim the loss of 2 lives... And one of those was this morning. Such is the advanced technology on the Gaza strip.
There is information on the net, but i'm guessing this is exactly what is in line for censorship here.
#157 Listening to Milliband? No. Mind you, it is fun to see what bizarre intelligence he has pieced together. And the tripe he comes out with.
One very important issue to remember with this guy...
Where was the aid for South Ossetia? Even after it turned out that they were in fact the victims of those attacks. He in my opinion is useless or he lied to the people knowingly, in the hope that the truth would not come out. For weeks the UK media reports had less information than I myself did. Foreign Office anybody? South Ossetia’s civilian population paid a very high price too. 2000 people were killed. And last time I looked Sashkvilli was still in power. Yep, still clinging on like .guv, the rest of the shower and Mugabe amongst others.
Nick, As an employee of the BBC you need to remember that your wages are paid by the tax payer. Your new year resolution needs to be to stop sucking up to NuLabour and provide us taxpayer witnh a balanced position in respect to British politics and current affairs. Perhaps you could pass on the message to your brother Andrew Marr.
BRITISH POLITICS WITHOUT THE EMPIRE : SUBSTANCE OR FARCE ? It was not until I spent some time in the USA in 2OO8 that I really became aware of some basic differences between our concept of democracy and theirs... I had always felt uneasy about that small army of extremely serious-, disciplined and devoted looking officials, surrounding the President whenever he is announcing anything important, probably envied for by our PM when trying hard to fit in some genuine priorities against a background of non-stop and often blown-up diversions and interrruptions (leaks, donations, Yacht gate, the Speaker, disputing the Governments figures yet again this morning concerning crime, and so on..) perhaps partly hoping to gain brief periods of party political advantage, assuming voters are not sophisticated enough to distinguish major global issues from relatively minor domestic matters, though they do make the news briefly...., perhaps particularly welcomed by the media during recessions especially since any serious non-Governmental contributions are scarce. One gathers that most Americans tend to support THEIR President WHILST he is in office...., regardless of their polititical origin rather than undermining him, accepting that a) solidarity is central in an age of terrorists and other attacks threatening their existence , i.e. the precise reason why many of their ancestors left their country, and as b) most Americans are therefore more serious about the business of running their country rather than playing party political games, they feel the President is in a better position than anyone to judge its latest state of affairs and should therefore be trusted (envied by some..) to get on with it when in office. What is unlikely to happen in the USA is that, e.g. a purely in error used word by the P.M. like during a recent debate about the global crisis would cause such boisterous hilarity,mockery and jeering by members of the opposition that the P.M. was unable to continue for several minutes and the session turned into a common farce whilst, rationally, nothing had anything to do with the very serious nature of the crisis that might effect many people in this country, i.e. nothing to laugh about.. Accidentally , shortly afterwards, Ms. May, shadow leader of the House, appeared to have said something equally silly and unintentional that went practically unnoticed because... Ms.Harman for the Government and its backbenchers quite wisely decided to act in a more responsible manner in line with the seriousness of the occasion.One lost count of the many educational and grammatical errors made by American Presidents over the years, but most mature and intelligent Americans, of course, realize it is in their own interest to support their man at the White House. Perhaps a different world indeed from Whitehall with all its secrets, hypocrisies and games, but then again, where would we be without our bloggs and its harmless fun..!
The Palestinians need all the Medical help they can get. Obviously you are happy for them to be Exterminated? Whether that be by bullet sickness or starvation. Who are the New Nazi Brigade??
By your lexicon and range of insults it is obvious you are one very sick person. 'Exterminated', 'New Nazi Brigade'. By the same token I could refer to the New New Bin Laden Brigade. When I asked you if you gave medical help to UK victims of terrorism, you replied on #169 MEDICAL AID?? WHAT DO YOU THINK THE RED CROSS DO? This caused you confusion as can be seen in #181. Actually, you are a very confused person, despite seemingly having so much money. It is reassuring that you pay for all your expenses for altruistic reasons. Good to know there isn't some foreign source for all these trips abroad, medicines, etc. In these difficult credit crunch times, it must involve you in great sacrifices. I will wind up this correspondence with you by hoping you lose your obvious self-hatred and emerge in 2009 as a wiser person.
"If The Scots or The Welsh were firing rockets at towns near our borders wouldn't you expect The Government to take swift and decisive action?"
You are the one who talks about borders and retaliation.
Why condemn the Palestinians for retaliating? (btw I don't condone their rocket attacks, but I might understand their state of mind).
Being Welsh, I can understand what its like to have one's country conquered, occupied and subjugated by a much larger and more powerful neighbour. A foreign queen and a prince imposed, together with another country's laws, and a flag which pretends that Wales doesn't exist. Its language decimated. I know what it is to be in perpetual tiny minority.
So I might just have more than a little tad of sympathy for the Palestinians.
As for "our borders", isn't this a UK political blog, not just an 'English' one? It seems that we Scots and Welsh can be easily dismissed.
Uganda's army has accused the Lord's Resistance Army rebels of hacking to death 45 civilians in a Catholic church in the Democratic Republic of Congo.
This happened on Christmas Eve and has attracted little notice. Will those bleeding hearts who visit Gaza at least three times a year be travelling to offer aid to these victims. I think not. Catholics are not politically viable as victims.
You say: "The evidence points to Israel not wanting a two-state solution".
Well then, how do you explain that Israel has been in negotiations with the Palestinian Authority precisely to set up a Palestinian State?
The evidence actually points to Hamas not wanting a two-state solution. They don't recognise Israel.
See what they teach their children! It never ceases to amaze me how some people twist the facts to try to fit their own agenda. President Ahmadinejad of Iran has actually made it clear that he wants to wipe Israel off the map - hardly a two state solution.
I regard the bloodshed as a tragedy. But those who say Israel should cease to exist are clearly not interested in peace, or a two state solution.
You say: "What the Nazis did to the Jews of Europe was appalling, words fail to describe it."
Hmmm. Go tell it to President Ahmadinejad of Iran. He doesn't think it happened!
Apparently he also agrees with you that Israel shouldn't exist. (You say: "the creation of Israel had no legal basis in international law".) He would like to see Israel wiped off the map.
You say: "Have we not learned any lessons from history?"
Why condemn the Palestinians for retaliating? (btw I don't condone their rocket attacks, but I might understand their state of mind).
What about the state of mind of The Israelis who for years had to put up with suicide bombs on buses and inside restaurants, attacks which claimed the lives of many innocent people and which led to The Gaza Strip being coralled in the first place. I'm not saying that the present situation is not extremely concerning but there are two participants in this conflict and it is looking increasing likely that it needs a third party to sort it out!
"..how do you explain that Israel has been in negotiations with the Palestinian Authority precisely to set up a Palestinian State?"
Abbas and several members of the PA are in the 'pocket' of Israel and the US. The PA is corrupt, much of the funding it gets doesn't reach the ordinary people of the West Bank. Abbas is also under Israeli control, as is the entire WB. It is no position to negotiate anything of substance.
Fundamentally this is a very unequal conflict. Whatever the Palestinians do (Fatah or Hamas) they lose, they cannot win. Their opponents hold all the aces. The Palestinians have no support, because countries are too afraid to upset the US which still has enormous military and economic clout. You saw how Blair and Brown kowtowed to Bush over Afghanistan and Iraq. Brown still hasn't got the guts to pull troops out of Basra for fear of upsetting the White House - the only thing the troops are doing there is killing time - even though Bush will be out of office in three weeks.
One has to be very careful what one writes about Israel, on these BBC blogs, because its such a sensitive political issue. Criticism of Israel wins few friends in the political world.
Back to your main point. Israel has had a number of opportunities to bring about a two-state solution over the last 20 years, (look them up) but there isn't one, is there?
Each and every time, the Palestinians end up weaker, and Israel has strengthened its control over the West Bank (Look at any map of the growth of Israeli settlements, roads, etc) .. they have no intention of relinquishing an inch of that land. They want all of it, and will continue the tit-for-tat, eye-for-an-eye approach, until the Palestinians are driven out. They've very nearly achieved it, already.
They also need the security, a two-state solution based on 1967 borders would mean giving up all the settlements, and Israel would only be 10 miles wide at its narrowest point.
This conflict will go on until Israel achieves its goal... the ancient borders of the Kingdom of David. They believe its their God-given right, and they have the support of tens of millions of Christian fundamentalists in the US, who believe that the restoration of Israel will hasten the Second Coming of Christ.. in our time, according to apocalyptic prophecies in Daniel and the Book of Revelation. (The Zionists are laughing at them all the way to the bank, because they don't believe a word of it).
No 162 you do yourself no favours with your ignorance about concentration camps, but you think every single concentration camp built by the Nazis was a death camp, like Auschwitz, but they weren't. Concentration camps were started by the British during the Boer War as a means of controlling the population.
You say "Abbas and several members of the PA are in the 'pocket' of Israel and the US."
Whatever the failings of the Palestinian Authority, President Abbas was the elected President. He is willing to negotiate with Israel to find peace.
But you would much rather take sides with Hamas, who staged a violent coup in Gaza and do not want to negotiate peace. Hamas are in the 'pocket' of President Ahmadinejad of Iran - who wants to wipe Israel off the map.
"the creation of Israel had no legal basis in international law"... quoting me!
I did, quite deliberately use the past tense there. The Israelis do have several arguments on which they claim a legal basis for their State. By far the strongest is its de facto existence.
I personally think that their historical, and biblical claims are baseless. Those based on the Balfour Declaration, League of Nations Mandate, or the 1947 UN Resolution are weak, because these had no right or jurisdiction to transfer territory. It is one thing to resolve that a people have a right to form a sovereign state, but quite another to say they can take someone else's land to achieve it.
Israel exists. I happen to think that its very unfortunate, but its a reality. That does not mean that I would agree with wiping it off the map, and driving its people into the sea. Its creation has caused a lot of conflict, suffering and misery, which isn't going to end any time soon. Most Palestinians want a compromise solution, as they have suffered, and are suffering, far more than anyone else. It would not be for me, an outsider to tell them what to do or not to do.
You resort to the same tactics as the Zionists. Any criticism of Israel results in the label 'anti-semitic'. You, otoh, lump everyone in with Ahmedinejad.
You say "This conflict will go on until Israel achieves its goal... the ancient borders of the Kingdom of David. They believe its their God-given right...."
What complete rubbish! Actually, it is Hamas that wants to extend it borders. They want a single Palestinian State that covers the whole of Israel. No 'Two-State' solution for them!
Israel's 'goal' is to negotiate peace with its neighbours. But the starting position has to be that Israel has a right to exist - something that you apparently deny.
Unfortunately, it is this denial which causes the conflict to go on.
Thought that would get your knickers in a twist. Calm down, dear, whatever you think or do isn't worth the effort. You remind me of somebody once omnipresent on this forum, who hasn't been heard of for a few days. Have you metamorphosised?
Those millions they have let in here (and before anybody calls me a racist they should come and look at where I am and many other cities in this once great island of ours), are to my mind and the minds of many of us one huge enormous disgraceful cause of wasted funds.
They brought with them illegal foodstuffs, drugs, diseases (TB for one and possibly other diseases into hospitals), crime, forced marriages, rudeness (yes rudeness, stand in a bus queue and see for yourselves), lack of basic English, etc etc.
A complete anathema to the England and its peoples I grew up with.
Why oh why do liberalist, do-gooders, lefties think they can save the world and let it all in here?
Don't they know Britain was not broke before so why did they try to fix it?
Sure needs fixing now. But it may be too late. Get this shower out and a new different government, preferably Conservative, to save the day. Brown is a control freak but he is out of control.
Isn't it odd that Robinson's Newslog doesn't feature on the Politics front page?
We now have two links (Politics and Business) to Robert Peston.
Why would that be? Peston hasn't posted since the 24th, so hardly more relevant than Robinson's last post...
It seems obvious that no solution to the Middle East crisis will be achieved until not only political, but also religious, solutions are found.
Always amazes me that Jehovah, God and Allah are one and the same object of veneration for the Jews, Christians and Muslims.
All trace back to the same source. The prophets of the Jews are respected by the later religions. Jesus is respected by the Muslims.
So why on earth do people keep on killing each other when there's so much fundamental agreement?
Sad thing is that, in many places, politics has become the new religion.
Wouldn't it be rather nice if we could stop believing that having good thoughts and saying good things makes no difference at all. It's what religious or political leaders actually do for themselves and the people around them that actually counts.
Never been very keen on "an eye for an eye..." approach, but it would probably make a lot of people stop and think before they did something really stupid, if they knew that there was some genuine punishment in store for brutal actions.
You say: "You resort to the same tactics as the Zionists. Any criticism of Israel results in the label 'anti-semitic'"
No, certainly not. Not all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic, and I haven't said it was - so I don't know why you bring that up. (However, for people who are anti-Semitic, being anti-Israel is a very good cover)
You say: "Israel exists. I happen to think that its very unfortunate..."
On that basis, there's really not much point us discussing it further. You have made your position quite clear.
"You say "This conflict will go on until Israel achieves its goal... the ancient borders of the Kingdom of David. They believe its their God-given right...."
What complete rubbish! Actually, it is Hamas that wants to extend it borders. They want a single Palestinian State that covers the whole of Israel. No 'Two-State' solution for them!"
I'm wasting my time with you. No-one is denying Hamas' standpoint. Both the Israelis and Hamas want all of the territory. There are elements within Hamas, according to news reports, which are willing to negotiate.
From their position of overwhelming strength, Israel has not negotiated a settlement. Instead, its grip on the West Bank and East Jerusalem has tightened. I believe it wants all of historic Israel.
It's not worth anything. He wants to be 'More English than the English.' Rather like Gordon Brown being a Scot. He bends over backwards (only thank goodness a turn of phase) to avoid doing any good for Scotland. But then, can one imagine Brown attempting to do good for anybody?!
You can build a good case for disputes over any "nation's" right to exist.
Australia should still be a place inhabited by the indigenous population.
The USA - indeed all of North and South America - should remain with indigenous populations. They may have slaughtered each other from time to time. And wiped out competing cultures without the help of Western European incomers. We know that happened.
Africa should still be a dark continent (well, it probably still is).
Israel is a peculiar case.
Badly managed when it came into being. But was it worse managed than our efforts to break up Yugoslavia into bits based on much more recent cultural/ethnic lines?
I really don't like the strong-arm stuff from Israel. But I can understand it.
As far as I can see, the boundaries and "right of occupation" of any territory around the world has ALWAYS been based on the "power to impose".
It gets a bit hopeless when Western politicians (like the ineffectual Miliband) say that solutions need to be "political".
Sure. That's why there was a "political" solution to WWI and WWII - after the aggressors had been defeated.
Can't recall any situation where "jaw-jaw" actually managed to prevent "war-war".
I don't like the situation. But you'd have thought that hundreds of millions of people occupying vast territories could allow a people, who "originated" their common God, could occupy a small sector and be tolerated.
Hamas doesn't just wage war against Israel, they also fight other Palestinians - and then uses them as human shields.
You say (197) "Abbas is also under Israeli control". Well, that will be news to him and all the Fatah supporters who wish to negotiate a lasting peace. Still, as you say (203) you think it is "very unfortunate" that Israel exists, perhaps that's why you would rubbish those Palestians who want to negotiate.
Still, looking on the bright side, at least you say "That does not mean that I would agree with wiping it off the map, and driving its people into the sea." Phew! That's good news indeed! But, just firing thousands of rockets and sending suicide bombers... that's OK is it?
""Israel exists. I happen to think that its very unfortunate, but its a reality."
The same could be said about your beloved Wales."
Its England's first and probably its last colony.
At least, we haven't taken someone else's land, and aren't bombing the c**p out of them, which is more than I suspect you can claim for your motherland.
I wouldn't mind a two-state solution here, though.
I wonder whether you can help me, perhaps through one of your insightful pieces: can you explain to me whether I could be right in suspecting that the UK media (online, print etc) are guilty of refusing to consider whether Brown deserves some of the blame for the current economic mess??
The govt have obviously got a 'blame the banks, blame the yanks' line, this has even been alluded to in some other BBC online reports but it has pretty much never been challenged. In my mind, if Brown effectively says that he will not allow the recession to get worse 'on his watch', this surely leads to the question of how he allowed the right conditions for a recession to develop 'on his watch', particularly when he was Chancellor.
Are the media complicit in avoiding the subject out of some misguided 'national unity' sentiment (I know the Tories initially fell for this, but they eventually woke up to the ruse, albeit when it was too late). Or is the media just waiting for the public backlash against Brown to develop around Feb/March when the recession gets far worse before addressing Brown's failings?
Just a thought, and I am being non-partisan here, but it seems to me that where land has been fought over historically, and occupied by different sides, both sides will stake a claim to it, and use certain historical dates to validate their viewpoint.
The question should be: How far back in history do we go to establish who has a legitimate right to occupy certain land?
There are so many instances that are relevant even today. I am no history scholar, and offer no personal opinion, but from my memory the same question also applies to Great Britain/ Ireland, UK/ Falklands/ Argentina, Gibraltar/ UK/ Spain, Iraq/ Mesopotamia, Yugoslavia/ Balkans, Russia/ Prussia/ Germany, and I am sure many more worldwide that better educated people than me could cite.
The question remains, how far back in history should you go to decide who has a divine right to occupy a certain area of land?
222. yellowbelly- The question remains, how far back in history should you go to decide who has a divine right to occupy a certain area of land?-
It's not how far back you go. It's when you've made sure you've annihilated pretty much all the opposition and the majority of the population. Then you know its all yours because there's no one left of any significance to complain.
As long as there's a significantly large proportion of survivors, then you're leaving yourself open to all sorts of future problems. Hence the current Israel Palestine quagmire.
Look at the conquest of America and Australia to see a textbook examples of land annexation. Now those guys knew what they were doing!
Remember, it only counts as genocide if it's practised by your enemy. If you do it, it's called: establishing democracy. Or encouraging free trade. Or securing the integrity of your borders etc.
I'd be very happy to understand who the "English" are.
Far as I can tell, there were loads of people who made up the people we English were a century ago: Celts, Angles, Saxons, Romans, Scandinavians, Normans... An ultimate mongrel breed.
The Normans first subjugated the closer people (now in England), then moved on to Wales, Scotland and Ireland.
That was only a thousand years ago, but it would be difficult to unravel what's happened in between.
Israel seems to be an anomaly. A point of singularity, when a "people" were allowed to get back to an original "homeland".
Whatever the circumstances, the descendents of those who "identified" a God common to Judaism, Christianity and Islamic faith are back where they say they should be. May not be fair on those who previously occupied the land 3 or 4,000 years ago or re-occupied it 1,000 years ago.
What's fair?
The old Iran/Iraq war killed more people than inhabit Israel. Was that fair? Justifiable? Any more or less so than the Catholic/ Protestant wars? I don't think so.
There was an act of international acceptance (not necessarily approval) that there should be a Jewish homeland. If all the people of Jewish origin "went home", they'd be piled chest high.
Likewise if all the people of English, Scottish, Welsh or Scottish origin "went home", the UK would sink.
Israel is a small sliver of a vast area. At some point it could be just a badland, devestated by nuclear annihilation.
1 If the "previews" of Brown's new-year speech are accurate, it should require an investigation by the Met.
A leak from the Prime Minister's office is even more serious than a leak from the Home Office.
2 If the previews are accurate, then we should insist on an independent investigation into the mental state of the PM.
If the leaks represent a real view of what Brown plans to say, it is serious.
He can't be comparing himself to Maggie Thatcher, John Major or Tony Blair. They didn't face "global" crises.
If he's trying to attach himself to Churchill, he's deluded.
Churchill was ostracised - even by his own party - because he warned against perils to come and wanted a change of policy.
In contrast, Brown was a cheer leader for the impending perils. Because he was quite happy creaming off the tax take from stupid economic laxity. Which he either encouraged, or at least allowed.
And now he wants us to believe in him as the "man who saved the world"?
No wonder the Nick Robinson Newslog has been removed from BBC Politics' front page.
Having critical input isn't what Brown or Mandelson would have wanted, I guess.
But just who in the BBC decides to make it harder to access this site?
226. At 8:00pm on 29 Dec 2008, sicilian29 wrote: As with all conflicts of this kind it is the poor ordinary people on both sides that are forced to endure most of the ensuing pain. + it's probably people stuck in the middle on neither side that get killed. The shoot out is between Hamas and the Israeli Army.
apparently the great war leader has spoken. He is 'appalled' at the situation in Gaza.
Brilliant, I suppose he has been sitting down in his armchair picking his nose, and eating what comes out, and all he can come up with is 'appalled'. What a man, what a great leader. Please put us out of our misery, Gordon just leave, call an election, you are not fit for purpose.
viewed slightly through rose-tinted glasses there I feel
but anyway - I feel I have to disagree with your point about the yanks collectively respecting their president
for one, they don't - certainly not Bush - I know many who were deeply ashamed of him and despised the man
I would slightly agree that they do tend to get behind their president when they need to - if not support him, probably more to do with the fact that they have a more nationalistic trait and have presidents for a fixed term
But also remember that they elect a head of state - he is the equivalent of the queen, not the PM, and he actually has less legislative power than a british prime minister - they elect a figurehead and much of the political mud is thrown down in the house where the laws are mostly passed, so he is somewhat of a figure of national unity
we meanwhile have created a system that is in reality based purely on parliament and is supposed* to achieve good government through debate, while the monarch is our ceremonial figurehead, the figure of national unity
it may also be something to do with our current PM - the problem with him is he wasn't elected (yes, yes we know constitutionally nothing is wrong) - but we all considered Blair to be somewhat presidential, and he promised to serve the full term - he didn't and the government changed tack, and like it or not in reality the leader of the party is what wins the election, he and his policies were not voted for and so he has a pretty feeble base with the public - hard to get behind that
But if you think blind loyalty, a ridiculously biased media, religious fervour and rampant nationalism are good traits in a nation, please continue
I listened to Gordon Brown being interviewed on the Today programme this morning and what struck me was his comments on euthanasia, or assissted suicide. No, I don't want cahnages to laws. Note he didn't want 'laws' changed that is not the same as saying that he would actually do anything to prevent it. A typical Brown cop-out again.
This from a Prime Minister who still has troops in Afghanistan where, believe it or not Mr Brown, our soldiers are killing an awful lot of people. We have a massive technological advantage over the Afghan freedom fighters and yet Brown persists in allowing the inequal struggle to continue. What are we doing in Afghanistan Mr Brown, apart from apparently keeping terrorists off the streets of Britain.
Finally, on his brief interview I would hope that he desists from calling me a citizen, I am not a citizen I am a subject of the Queen, whether he likes it or not, I am not a British citizen. It is the same for Brown, until any constitutional change escaped me we are all subjects of the Queen. The same for our soldiers, they take an oath of allegiance to the Queen, not the prime Minister. They fight and die to defend Queen and country not Brown, Blair, or Cameron.
Gordon Brown on the importance of human life. Does he only mean British lives, because he shows a total disregard for the lives of foreigners.
This comment derives from the Gordon Brown interview on the Today programme on Radio 4. The man has no substance, such a load of tosh he gave us this morning, inviting in to eat at the manse the local burglar, oh what a funny thing that was Gordon.
What a great leader our Gordon is, this citizen, who will never be what he truly is, a subject, just like the rest of us. Gordon Brown is so compassionate, so empathetic, he feels our pain, yeah, course he does. Is that what he will say when the Group of Twenty visit London in March. The pain, the pain, give it a rest Gordon, you feel nothing. Well I don't think you do anyway.
Interesting piece in The Times, from a former Lehman insider...
"... Chairman and CEO Fuld never tired of telling people that Lehman was built to triumph in adversity. That was his understanding of its history and his way of motivating the 26,000 employees at his command. But it also led him and his closest associates latterly to say things that, while obviously sincere and reflecting genuinely held beliefs, had no connection whatsoever with business reality.
This delusion – compounded by the powerful and destructive forces of ambition within the bank – was propelling Lehman towards catastrophe. The death spiral beckoned."
No 233 I didn't hear it, but I imagine the interview started something like this:
Interviewer: Good morning Prime Minister. Golem: Good morning, I'm spending every waking hour thinking about ways to help hard-pressed working families (of which there are likely to be hundreds of thousands less this year) through these troubled times that I hope you understand are a global problem requiring global solutions (pronounced "solewetions").
Well said I could not have put it better myself. Brown is a laughing fool.
But with everyone looking at the middle east your comments were lost. We should sort our own problems out first then look at helping the rest of the world. I like many others are fed up with Israel and Hamas all this stupid tit for tat killing.
It's not only bloggers on Nicks site that reflect views on Mr Brown. Today's Leader in the Times is quite interesting comparing today with Callaghan's government.
"Mr Brown, by contrast, stubbornly declines to acknowledge that today's economic crisis has its roots in policies pursued under Labour. While the ructions in the banking system were sparked by developments overseas, the crisis in the UK has a heavy domestic element. The unsustainable boom in house prices, the weakness of banking supervision and the loss of international investor confidence in the value of sterling all reflect conscious choices made by policymakers in recent years. The Prime Minister must recognise the failings of the past before he can convince us that he knows how to tackle the future."
I coudn't have put it better myself.
It seems that the size of the Brown fan club is rapidly shrinking. Only a few who still hang on his (actually Mandelson's) every word.
Gordon the Golem might just destroy the Labour Party. Two scenarios:
One
He decides to go to the country in February 2009 and sneaks to victory before the sheer scale of the economic devastation he has caused to the nation is fully exposed. Being power-mad, the Golem clings desperately to office, in spite of the country wanting rid, until 2014 (still, astonishly, before his street-walker predicts - with insane optimism - that we'll be back to "borrowing only to invest"). I expect the budget of 2009 to totally destroy what little economic credibility Labour has left, just as "Black Wednesday" destroyed the Conservatives. Making a seething nation wait five years will bring an election defeat of biblical proportions for Labour. And Labour isn't as deeply ingrained into the nation as the Conservative Party is. It might not survive.
Two
He dithers and delays, the 2009 budget destroys his government's credibility and he makes the nation wait until the last possible minute in 2010 (just as Major did in 1987). The result would be much the same, although perhaps not as disastrous for Labour as the first one.
The Palestine /Israel problem was created by Europe, the USA and religious bigotry over the centuries, which culminated with the genocide in WWII.
Unfortunately, at the end of this, Jewish asylum seekers were armed to the teeth and imported on mass to a small country, and given more rights than most of those already living there. The ancestors of these asylum seekers had not been anywhere near Palestine since the Roman Empire, if at all. In fact, the Ashkenazim were most likely descended from the Caucasian Khazars. But because of the Bible, they, and the US government in particular, believed that God had given them the right to live there and to rule. They then pursued a policy of selected ethnic cleansing and "lebensraum" to ensure their dominance and the relegation of the indigenous population to - at best - second class citizenship, or refugee status.
The indigenous population and neighbouring population never really accepted this state of affairs, and the result has been war ever since. The problem is that the present state of affairs can only be sustained by military support from a religiously blinkered United States.
By the way, I have some Jewish ancestry, so I am not anti Jew, but I am against the notion that anyone can go to someone else's country and take it over just because their ancestors may have lived there a couple of thousand years ago, and the stupid claim that "God" gave it to them anyway. Ironically, many modern Palestinian "Arabs", are likely to be descended from Jews who converted to Islam anyway.
Unless there is a meeting of minds and compromise, generously funded by the rest of the world, there will be a military stand-off, but no solution until the US falters and there is either a nuclear conflagration or the state of Israel goes the way of the mediaeval crusader kingdoms.
This is OUR problem, because with the British mandate etc, we helped create it. The Palestine problem costs us money we cannot afford, because it is the ultimate cause of modern Islamic extremism and the "War on Terror". Even total military victory for Israel would not solve the problem; it would merely poison the next millenium of human history.
A quote from Frank Herbert (Dune Messiah):
Atrocity never balances or rectifies the past. Atrocity merely arms the future for more atrocity.
.... Whoever commits atrocity also commits those future atrocities thus bred.
The Dignity, a Free Gaza boat on a mission of mercy to besieged Gaza, is being attacked by the Israeli Navy in international waters. The Dignity has been surrounded by at least half-a-dozen Israeli warships. They are firing live ammunition around the Dignity, and one of the warships has rammed the civilian craft causing an unknown amount of damage. Contrary to international maritime law, the Israelis are actively preventing the Dignity from approaching Gaza or finding safe haven in either Egypt or Lebanon. Instead, the Israeli navy is demanding that the Dignity return to Cyprus - despite the fact that the ship does not carry enough fuel to do so. Fortunately, no one aboard the ship has yet been seriously injured.
Just when will somebody stop the Israeli government from breaking international law. Mind you we can hardly complain as we have broken international law when we attacked Iraq. Where is Gordon Brown, when will he give us the benefit of his wisdom, lead Brown, for all our sakes man show some leadership. If you cannot lead then just go, get out now. Do not be afraid to criticise Israel, but admit to your past mistakes at the same time. You are busted.
I hope that I am not being too harsh but the Prime minister made some comments with regard to Euthanasia this morning I think that we should have some answers.
He pronounced on this issuethat he would not want to "put pressure on people to end their lives".
Now I think that we need to know about the very sad death of his own daughter, could more have been done to save her, or was it felt best that she should slip away. The trouble with Brown is that he seems to be in favour of no change to the abortion law, and the way in which lives are 'wasted', and yet seems to be against euthanasia, he is totally inconsistent.
This is not leadership Brown, I don't think that you have any morals at all.
Thanks for your endorsements of my post numbered 207.
I have said it until I am blue (right colour!!) in the face:
BRITAIN TRIES TO SAVE THE WORLD BUT CANNOT SAVE ITSELF.
Brown is not Churchill, can never be Churchill - what a bare faced cheek!
Churchill stopped our shores from being invaded. Brown and Blair ALLOWED indeed actively encouraged our shores to be invaded, and turned a blind eye (hmm!) to millions INVADING us. They should pay for it with their lives - we have had to! I am not joking. They have betrayed us. They really have. All their party political broadcasts and "pep" talks by Herr Brown are just meant to fool us. Time for us to speak for ourselves and, please God, vote them out. How DARE they!!
With this government you have to state the bl***ing obvious to them because they cannot see it they are so thick.
When I was very young I remember (post War) times of strife / famine disasters etc in other parts of the world. The statements put out then were that able people from those places could come here, become educated then RETURN to their own lands to build up their infrastructure etc perhaps with financial help from here and elsewhere.
What you have now is people coming ostensibly for that purpose but staying here because the grass is so much greener. Others who are so ill equipped for western life, non English speaking, who care not for our values, culture, way of life, have come from lawless lands and know nothing else. Complete lack of control on who comes here what they do, where they live - you've heard it all before. But why do we have to spell it out to this stupid, incompetent government?
Maybe it's Scotland's subtle way of waging war on the rest of the UK because it sure looks that way to me.
TAG I am sorry but on the issue of euthanisia I do actually agree with the anti lobby.
We came into this world in a natural way and we should depart it in the same way. I have found that those who state they want euthanisa are often cold types of souls themselves - scientists can be like that.
I witnessed my own father's death. He was 91. He fought death to the end, without morphine and unable to walk, but did not want it to end artificially. All he wanted was to know that we, his children, were all right and with him and that it was ok for him to slip away. There was no medical inducement just a peaceful "letting go" when his body told him.
As usual, I agree with most of what you say. It saddens and disgusts me to see what has and continues to take place in this once green and pleasant land. I see behaviour fit for the lowest levels of civilization, no manners, no grace. Drunkeness in the streets, people eating as they pass like cattle munching and surping on water bottles through shopping centres. Unfortunately, many of these are native- born white British subjects. I listened to a BBC programme on "Great White Hope" and it appears working-class (a poor term as most are on benefits) families have low aspirations for their sons. They fare less well at school than the children of African or Caribbean parentage. It may well be that this class have copied much of the violence and habits of immigrants from violent societies, but it is very disturbing. It seems that the people who should be setting an example and actively demanding standards have remained silent. Save for voices, such as yours flamepatricia, on forums or in newspapers, the usual UK attitude of "be quiet and mind your own business" continues. Until we have the guts to stand up, risking a knifing or shooting at best, insults at worst, the rot in this once decent land will continue.
I see that young George Osbourne is proposing some tax measures for the next Tory administration.
Whats strikes me is the utter timidity of his proposal, basically deferring a rise in NI.
How about introducing some much needed honesty in Government and proposing to merge Income Tax and National 'Insurance' into a single tax and slicing a bit off that (efficiency savings of running one system).
Seems to me that the Tories are still banking (ho ho) on Labour being in a dark place come election time.
Your attempt to summarise the origins of the modern state of Israel contains the type of inaccuracies usually employed by those who think Israel should not exist.
Furthermore, your assertion that "many modern Palestinian "Arabs", are likely to be descended from Jews who converted to Islam anyway" is based on what?
Your absurd claim that "Jewish asylum seekers were armed to the teeth and imported on mass to a small country" is also totally wrong.
Firstly Jewish settlers were not "imported on mass". In fact, the British turned away as many away as they could. For example, the ship Exodus with 4500 frail survivors from Germany was turned back to Europe by the British Navy. Secondly, the Jews were not "armed to the teeth". When all the surrounding Arab countries decided to attack at once (in the days following independence in 1948), Israel was outnumbered and outgunned.
Despite your convenient historical inaccuracies, none of this actually moves us on or deals with the reality of today.
Israel does exist - and there it is. Had the Arab countries not tried again to wipe it out in 1967, the entire West Bank would still be part of Jordan and Gaza would still be part of Egypt.
Pre 1967, there was no talk of Jordan and Egypt relinquishing Gaza or the West Bank to create a separate country.
The reality is that time has moved on and thankfully there is peace between Israel, Egypt and Jordan. Egypt and Jordan do not want Gaza or the West Bank back, and it is agreed that these should form a new Palestinian State.
The best way NOW to secure peace for all the people in the area is to accept a Two-State solution - something that Hamas apparently will not do.
#252 My information comes from one hell of a lot of reading of informed sources. Encyclopeadiae, Arthur Koestler, Sir John Glubb, to name but a few. My opinion of this matter changed completely as I informed myself.
Take one example - Jaffa used to be an Arab City. It isn't now. The creation of the state of Israel was a great injustice, supported by people who'd failed to prevent the Holocaust. Unfortunately two wrongs don't make a right.
Now the state of Israel exists - in some ways Hitler's most enduring legacy. Israeli sovereignty over settlements in the occupied territories closely mirrors the relationship between apartheid South Africa and its black "homelands". Of course, in other ways Israel has redeeming features which Nazi Germany and the apartheid state did not. It is a genuine democracy and many of its people and politicians are thoroughly decent human beings. Nonetheless, the state of Israel was founded in injustice: by means of terrorism, murder and selected ethnic cleansing. The main injustice, which persists to this day, is the assumption by the Israelis that any Jew anywhere in the world has a greater right to live in Palestine than the indigenous population.
You can't expel populations en masse again, which some on both sides wish to do. BUT, until everyone in that land has equal rights, and there is at least recompense for stolen land, there will be no peace.
Very clever, using Ian Powell's famous words, but quite inappropriate. The only rivers of blood are those of the drunkards 'bottling' each other and innocent passersby, and the rest of the ignorant lowlifes who prowl our streets knifing and shooting other people. These are not, in most cases racially morivated attacks, but are the result of the breakdown of family life and society. With an over-tolerant, weak fatherless society headed by the likes of this government what can one expect?
"Firstly Jewish settlers were not "imported on mass". In fact, the British turned away as many away as they could. For example, the ship Exodus with 4500 frail survivors from Germany was turned back to Europe by the British Navy."
According to data collated for the UN by the British Mandate 367,845 Jews migrated to Palestine between 1920-45 under the terms of the Mandate. It is true that the British had a quota, but this was because the British authorities in Palestine couldn't cope with larger numbers arriving, and what the country could absorb.
It wasn't until the threat of war in the late 30s, and the possibility that in this war the Arabs (unlike WWI) would support Germany because of the atrocious treatment they had received at the hands of the British and the French after 1918 ... for supporting the British they had been promised independence from Ottoman rule, but instead they came under British and French control. There were a number of Arab revolts. Napoleon was on the button when he said.. 'Perfidious Albion'.. true to the present day.
After 1945 the British stopped further immigration, because they could not cope with the problems caused. However, about 60,000 Jews still got in. A further 50,000 were interned in Cyprus. The Exodus incident, of course, took place in 1947, but by then the Jewish population of Palestine had grown to the point that it threatened to outnumber the indigenous population, hence serious Arab unrest and attacks on the British and a civil war. During this period, the Zionists also attacked the British, for preventing further immigration.
"When all the surrounding Arab countries decided to attack at once (in the days following independence in 1948), Israel was outnumbered and outgunned."
Israel did not gain 'independence', the Jewish National Council in Tel Aviv under the leadership of David Ben Gurion, declared, unilaterally, on Friday 14 May 1948, the establishment of the State of Israel, on the day the British left Palestine. President Truman recognised Israel 11 minutes after the declaration.
Its worth reading an account of the war of 1948-49 in Wikipedia:
"Take one example - Jaffa used to be an Arab City. It isn't now."
Firstly, there remain a significant minority of Israeli Arabs inhabit Jaffa - now part of the Tel Aviv-Jaffa municipality. (by the way, whilst there is some prejudice, unlike the remnants of Jews in Arab countries, Israeli Arabs have full democratic rights including full suffrage, independent political parties and representatives in parliament. In fact they have more rights than the citizens of virtually every Arab state - but let's not dwell on it as it doesn't suit the liberal-left narrative....).
Secondly, how far back do you want to go? Before Jaffa was an 'arab city' (conquered from the Christains in the 7th century by rising Islam) it was Byzantine, Roman, Greek, Judean, Israelite, Philistine, Egyptian and so on, back into the 'dawn of time'.
One in four pensioners is still living in poverty. In total 2.5 million pensioners are now living below the official poverty line of 151 GBP a week, the National Pensioners Convention said.
Today's state pension is worth even less in relation to average wages than it was, when it was introduced 100 years ago, in 1908.
"Israeli Arabs have full democratic rights including full suffrage, independent political parties and representatives in parliament. In fact they have more rights than the citizens of virtually every Arab state - but let's not dwell on it as it doesn't suit the liberal-left narrative....)"
How about reading this article about Israeli Arab citizens and how they feel about it...?
I'm not a supporter of the Palestinians because I'm 'liberal-left'. I don't want to be labelled politically, probably as much as you don't. I simply was astonished when I read the history of the conflict, at the tremendous injustice which the Palestinian people have suffered.. and are suffering this very moment.
When this is pointed out, the immediate reaction of Zionists is to point to other injustices in the world (and there are plenty). What they are actually saying is... "Why pick on the wrongs Israel has perpetrated? ... its because you're anti-Semitic, isn't it?
That is, they attack the person, not what he's saying and the evidence being presented.
Having been brought up as a Christian, I was actually pro-Israel, until in the 1980s I read widely about the issue. Its a vast subject, and accusations can be made against both sides, but when it comes to raw injustice, then the Palestinian case is unassailable.
So this blog is now accessible from the Politics front page, even if Nick is still enjoying a break. Maybe its reinstatement has something to do with a picture of a grinning Gordon Brown and news that his popularity is going up again.
Meanwhile, in the real world outside the Westminster bubble, his policies continue to bring this country to its knees. I dreamt last night that I found someone foolish enough to exchange euros for my pounds at parity (either the crisis is really getting to me or it was the cheese).
Anyway, praise where it's due - I actually support Gordon Brown speaking out against laws promoting euthanasia. I hope he has the moral courage to revisit the decisions taken in Parliament earlier in the year on human embryo research and the abortion laws.
I note that David Milliband continues to make noises about the conflict in Gaza.
I was under a mistaken impression that the post of Foreign Secretary was amongst the most senior in Government, and that Britain still had a voice in World Affairs as one of the permanent members of the Security Council, member of NATO, "special relationship" with the USA etc.
It would seem that rather than intervene directly, Mr Milliband is looking to a lead from the EU.
Now is this because Mr Milliband does not appreciate the trappings of his office, or is he already on board with the new EU constitution where foreign affairs and military action are co-ordinated under the flag of a single superstate?
(Incidentally I am aware of Mr Milliband's provenance, but don't want to get into discussion based upon it).
I think there is very little point in trying to have a meaningful discussion with you if your starting point is "The creation of the state of Israel was a great injustice" and that Israel is "Hitler's most enduring legacy".
However much you resent the existence of Israel, it is there, so I'm afraid you will just have learn to live with it.
Meanwhile, for the people who actually live in the region, the best opportunity for peace is a Two-State solution.
The land in question has changed hands many times in its history - with the West Bank and Gaza most recently belonging to Jordan and Egypt respectively.
It's time for people to recognise each other's right to exist, and to learn to live as neighbours. Unfortunately, this isn't currently on the Hamas/Iran agenda as they would prefer Israel to be wiped off the map.
Despite your objection to Israel's entire existence, you say (as if in mitigation) "many of its people and politicians are thoroughly decent human beings". How patronising it that?
The Conservatives "Labour Isn’t Working" poster with its image of a snaking dole queue was one of the most iconic political images of the late 1970s and right from the outset it caused consternation within James Callaghan’s Government.
For those to young to have seen the poster or those that have forgotten what it looked like, I have published a link below:
With the predicted 3 Mill unemployed the Tories just need to dig out the Poster they used in 1979.
With regard to the population of Israel in 1948, there was an influx of people, many of them refugees. But it is not correct to suggest they were "imported" as was suggested in an earlier comment, and nor were they "armed to the teeth".
It's also terribly inconvenient for those who oppose the existence of Israel to recall that many Jews had been expelled from surrounding Arab countries or forced to flee . Where were they supposed to go?
You clearly have your own view of history. My view is there is now an expectation for two-state solution amongst those who wish to live in peaceful coexistence with their neighbours. The extremists who seek to wipe Israel off the map are simply delaying the peace that most people want.
I agree many of our own behave disgracefully, sometimes copyi others from abroad who have come to live here - speak in Afro street speak, innit, I aks you (I ask you) and so on, get into drugs (which countries do they come from - not here!), knife crime etc.
However, if I may, think of it like a family. If a happy supportive loving family (such as England basically was before the "invasion") where everything is fine but then the father then said "I have such a lovely, well adjusted, successful family I am going to go out and get lots of foreigners to come and live in my house and we will all bend over backwards to accommodate them. Don't you upset them or say anything about their behaviour, colour or culture, but it's all right for them to upset us", do you think that same family would continue in their stable happy manner or do you think they would become resentful, lose their self esteem, lose interest in their studies, behaviour etc?
In other words the father has told them "I am so clever to have raised a wonderful family and love you all so much I am going to go out and get lots more people to add to my "family" and look after them too".
Recipe for a happy unit? Recipe for a happy well adjusted country? I don't think so. Not in those areas where this happens.
Again, it is not rocket science, just common sense, of which the "father / Labour" has none.
Vis a vis the current Israel Palestine pickle and the debate that has sprung up in recent days on these blogs regarding it.
There seem to be a lot of people talking about injustice in the world.
I thought that as we were on the subject of genocide and its ugly consequences, I was wondering whether we might have a debate on the hundred day genocide that occurred in Rwanda in 1991 that the world, especially the west, largely ignored, which resulted in the deaths of up to a million Tutsis.
Might it not be the right thing for someone to consult the Tutsis on whether they feel they might like to be relocated somewhere out of the way where they could set up a homeland. Somewhere tranquil where they could be left alone to recover in peace. As this sort of thing has been tried before, and utilising previous experience I was thinking that we could move them somewhere where they’d never lived in two thousand years or more, somewhere out of the way that they could develop into a state of their own.
Just to get the ball rolling I was thinking maybe it might be nice to give them I don’t know, maybe Cornwall or the Home Counties.
Do you think any of the locals there would disagree?
It seems a bit strange to accuse Brown of being over-tolerant. Tories generally say that he resembles Stalin and Mugabe, not John Lennon.
It strikes me that this is yet another example of people clamouring for more individual freedom, then when they see the results clamouring for less.
What people mean is that they want more freedom for themselves, and less for those groups that they do not like.
The same applies to economics- look what happened when the banks were given too much freedom.
Now remind me again, which major UK political party advocates greater individual and corporate freedom?
269. Roll on
Since you clearly weren't around / can't remember the years between 1979 and 1997, why not do a bit of research about what took place during those halsion days. Then you might want to revise your advice to the Tories to bring back that 'Labour isn't working' poster.
"Question: If Israel were to disappear tomorrow would all these countries suddenly become beacons of tolerance and enlightenment?"
What's that got to do with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians?
Criticism of Israel does not make anyone an apologist for the behaviour/actions of any person or country. Its a silly and illogical question.
I think the ME would be more stable if Israel didn't exist, as its a primary cause of instability, not only in that region, but in the world, today. But Israel does exist, and it isn't going to go away soon.
I would be interested in a citation or reference (with details) for Israel's absorption of Arab refugees (non-Jewish Arabs) from countries such as Morocco, Iraq and Yemen, if you are able to provide it.
"Now remind me again, which major UK political party advocates greater individual and corporate freedom?"
===
Now remind me, which party has been in power for the last 11 years and presided over the "worst economic downturn in 60 years", to quote Alistair Darling?
There's been an expectation of a 'two-state' solution since 1947.... remember the UN Partition Plan... a plan to create two states in Palestine, one Jewish, the other Arab (Moslem-Christian). That's what the pro-Zionist United States wanted.
It hasn't happened yet, and its 60 years. My bet is it won't happen, unless what's created is a Palestinian bantustan, ie a state completely dominated or controlled by another. Such a 'statehood' could be imposed by Israel and the US on Abbas, as he's in no position to negotiate a meaningful settlement.
The longer the conflict goes on, the stronger Israel's hold on the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem gets. There are so many settlers and settlements there now, that Israel can claim it would be unreasonable to remove the majority of them.
Israel has kept the pot boiling ever since its creation. It assisted Britain and France by attacking the Arabs in 1956 so as to give a pretext for snatching the Canal back from Nasser. The US forced a climbdown because it feared the Soviet response, because it was likely to provide Egypt with the weaponry to stand up to Israel and the US.
The best example is 2006 with its attack on Lebanon, in response to the kidnapping of two IDF soldiers. It destroyed southern Lebanon and bombed Beirut, killing large numbers of innocent civilians and over a twelve hundred children.
If Israel wanted a two-state solution, consisting of a very weak Palestinian bantustan, with Bush in the White House it could have been easily achieved. In my opinion, that's the last thing Israel wants. It ultimately wants the Arabs out altogether. The creation, even of a weak, Palestinian state will hinder that prospect. Israel has and will blame anyone... Arafat Hezobollah, Hamas, Iran, Ahmedinejad... and use them as an excuse for more violence. Yet it has killed far more innocent civilians than all these put together.
Today its bombing and shelling Gaza's overcrowded tenements and refugee camps with its F16 aircraft and warships for the fourth day and night in a row, when before this present crisis no Israeli had been killed by one of those primitive rockets. Its actions are never proportionate.
"Since you clearly weren't around / can't remember the years between 1979 and 1997, why not do a bit of research about what took place during those halsion days. Then you might want to revise your advice to the Tories to bring back that 'Labour isn't working' poster."
===
Since you clearly weren't around/ can't remember the years 1974 to 1979 and the mess that the last Labour government left the country in, you might want to revise your advice.
of course, the Israelis don't bear ALL of the blame for the troubles in the middle east but their tendency to use cruel and unusual force way out of proportion to the greivance - you know, slap my face and I'll kill you and the whole of your family - means that they forfeit many people's sympathy
Since you clearly weren't around / can't remember the years between 1979 and 1997, why not do a bit of research about what took place during those halsion days. Then you might want to revise your advice to the Tories to bring back that 'Labour isn't working' poster.
I am old enough to remember the early1970's - I remember the Winter of discontent and the preceding recession that put Thatcher into power. The NuLabour apologists on here have airbrushed those events from history.
I remember the whole family sitting round a paraffin stove in one room to keep warm. My kids doing their homework by candlelight because of the power cuts. Walking past piles of rubbish in the streets because of strikes. Wondering if our kids would go to school the following week as they were running out of coal for heating and might send them home. We could not even bury our dead.
Prior to the Winter of Discontent Inflation peaked at 26.9% in the year to August 1975 under Callaghan who had succeeded Wilson as PM. Throughout most of 1975 the BoE base interest rate was running at 11.5% .
Yep I remember those Halcyon days well.
It is little wonder that the Tories won the GE in 1979 after the abysmal performance by Labour.
Unfortunately things are currently stacking up that way today! Do Labour never learn.
I have found a copy of the 1979 Tory winning poster. Nice thing tinternet.
There is even a recent comparison with the current crisis and the Winter of Discontent in the Telegraph 008.09.2008.
Now some people, especially NuLabour and their supporters will put it down slipshod journalism, attempt to re-write it or dare I say - say it never happened.
I also remember Labour going, cap in hand, to the IMF for money to bail GB out of the mess they had created! Funny how history appears to be repeating itself given the recent events.
Sorry I couldn't reply before. Read your posting carefully, and afraid your analogy of the family, whilst interesting cannot apply. Reason: the family has systematically and deliberately been destroyed by statespeople such as Harman et al. Some of the best behaved and finest neighbours were the Asians expelled from East Africa and Uganda. They had strong family structures, but I regretfully see a lessening of these foundations as time spent here in the UK makes its influences felt. The West Indians who came over in the 50s, at governmental invitation, were mainly G-d fearing, decent people. Unfortunately, the policies of political correctness make correcting bad grammar or incorrect English a no-no. In the Caribbean it was accepted that children needed strict discipline. If this was practised here, the parents would wind up in prison. There is also a reverse snobbism, where the educated deliberately dumb down and adapt coarse accents. I may be incorrect, but I believe I read that Prince Harry is receiving instruction in Cockney speech!
276. MunichMadrid7980
By the same token, I state Brown is too tolerant, but only where it is politically correct to be so. Check, and you will find only one person in five finishes up in prison for making knife attacks.
#272 Hate to say so, but a Ponzi scheme only works if a dozen ideologically-driven fools signs up for every one in the scheme previously. Even Team GB never had that much of a boom in its support. At least while you've all been dossing, the euro has near enough reached parity with the pound...odd how things read when you turn them on their heads, isn't it? And you can't get into Marks for the hordes of Euro-trippers buying tat which'll fall apart in two weeks - or perhaps you haven't noticed they've traded back down-market on quality of late? Last time they did that, it near destroyed them. And what about Boots? When even a Swansea bus driver castigates them for over-pricing and predicts they're next for the big drop, what chance has the man on the Clapham Omnibus got to dissent? Now then, try those for Ponzi schemes...
Two ambulancemen have been arrested by police after they were heard allegedly discussing whether they should bother to resuscitate a disabled man who had collapsed at home and subsequently died.
There are many decent honest family oriented West Indians, etc. who came here in the past and were grateful for a new start and prospects. These people did for the most part become integrated (apart from a few hiccups) and they were and are decent types. They now ask US why are you letting these hoards of unchecked immigrants, migrants in?
What I see is ghetto type areas where people stay with their own kind, never wanting to integrate. Birmingham, Wolverhampton, London of course, Manchester, ALL the big cities and, sadly, some outer areas too. There is a "white flight" out to Devon and abroad and that is making these ghetto areas even more concentrated.
With all the education and expertise available to the government you would have thought they would have studied the social, environmental and financial aspects of it all but, no, apparently that is beyond them.
My last position before retirement brought me into contact with social workers, support workers and nursing staff. Many of these difficult jobs were held by people from the Caribbean. Immigrants who had arrived in the Fifties and worked long and hard to achieve a decent life style. Several times I heard the same story. Those near to retirement were seriously thinking of returning to their lands of birth. The reasons were not nostalgia, nor the British climate, they wanted to escape what the UK had become with the type of immigrants flooding in. Many were distressed at the way their grandchildren were abused by other young people in burkas because they dressed in modern style, and the drug usage and violence in the areas which were pedalled openly. The drug dealers often being family members of the burka-clad young women who condemned short skirts and sleeves! So yes, on this point we agree flamepatricia, and it is very sad.
Yes, Phoenix. Very graphically put. What you see is what I see too and is, indeed, most sad.
However, I am angry too. Angry that my father and grandfather fought in two World Wars for a different kind of society. My father said to me many times before he died aged 91 that he was sad and angry at the way the country had become. He was not suffering from dementia and was in full possession of his intellect.
When I speak to others up and down the country they mostly say the same.
I did hear one exception though and that was from someone who lives in a beautiful house on a cliff miles away from others and who branded me a "racist" saying we owe it to those people because of our Imperial past.
Our Imperial past was not all bad. Indeed, we vastly improved many places. I consider the cliff dweller's views to be niave and he was a Social Worker! Typical!
Universities should be free to charge whatever fees they like to improve the quality of teaching, a report commissioned by John Denham, the universities secretary, has recommended.
Denham is due to begin a review of tuition fees next year; they could be raised from 2011.
At a time when we should be retraining and up-skilling to meet demand after the recession NuLabour plan to raise student fees dramatically.
You couldn’t make this up even if you tried!
There again everyone has to sacrifice for Duff Gordons 11 year binge!
Hey, Roll On, whilst we are at it I do consider that there may be too many people going to uni.
Yes I do!
Some of them are just not uni. material and are only there for the beer and skittles. Miraculously they seem to get their degrees but many do not get degree related jobs and would have done as well to have gone into apprenticeships (were they available). Now our young people won't take the "practical" type of jobs because they think those jobs are beneath them so it's no wonder that the Eastern Europeans are taking them.
My own children went to uni. and luckily did get good jobs but they had friends who seemed to be students for years, well into their twenties, just dossing and globe trotting. All this lack of tax paying costs the country too.
I will digress slightly and remark that most of the social workers who I knew, actually worked, very hard, in the field and naturally had fairly low grades with rotten salaries to match. The person who accused you of being a racist, if he/she was a social worker, was probably of the ilk of that one in Haringey where poor Baby P died. The lovely house on the cliff was obviously owned by an armchair socialist who earned an extremely high salary, due to a political appointment. No, I am not being paranoid, but I saw too often how the system works. My father, too died, at the age of 94, an angry man. He served in the army, and indeed I sometimes believe his anger in the way things were becoming kept him alive and healthy. Adrenaline!
"Question: If Israel were to disappear tomorrow would all these countries suddenly become beacons of tolerance and enlightenment?"
What's that got to do with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians?
Everything. Israel is accused of being the core reason not just for Palestinian suffering but for all the 'instability' in the Middle East (Though how this explains the 'instability' in Algeria, Egypt, Saudi, Iraq, Kashmir, Sudan, Southern Thailand, the Philippine, etc. is beyond my ken).
as indeed brynt41 adds:
"I think the ME would be more stable if Israel didn't exist, as its a primary cause of instability, not only in that region, but in the world, today."
Hitler promised a more 'stable' Europe once it was 'Jew-free'. He had a 'final solution' for that problem of 'instability'. In fact, 'stability' could well be a prime definition of a graveyard.
brynt41 asks:
"I would be interested in a citation or reference (with details) for Israel's absorption of Arab refugees (non-Jewish Arabs) from countries such as Morocco, Iraq and Yemen, if you are able to provide it.
It is, unfortunately, a bit late for me to start serious researches (and I am no authority on such matters), however, cursory information from the internet indicates that at the time of the founding of Israel in 1948 there were over 856,000 Jews living in the Arab countries of the Middle East and North Africa. By the 1970s most of the Jewish communities in these countries had disappeared, mostly emigrated, mainly to Israel (with France as second most 'popular' choice).
An independent (though EU-funded) think tank called MEDEA says that 445,000 Jews emigrated to Israel after 1948. Whatever figure you chose, this is of a similar magnitude to the (up to) 750,000 arabs who left the Israel in 1948 (though hundreds of thousands of arabs did not leave and are now Israeli citizens).
Population exchanges are never nice - or neat - but sometimes a realistic necessity (think of Greece-Turkey 1922). The difference is in how Israel treated and absorbed its incoming immigrants compared to how the arab countries (mis)treated their 'brothers'.
You say "There's been an expectation of a 'two-state' solution since 1947.... "
The fact is, before 1967, the West Bank was part of Jordan, and Gaza was part of Egypt. Either of those countries could have done as they wished with their land. But back then, no one was contemplating a separate 'Palestinian State'. (At that time, the Arab countries had just failed a one-state solution by attempting to destroy Israel)
The Jordanians actually weren't too keen and expelled the PLO in 1970 because they didn't like the idea of armed militias or a state within a state.
You say: "If Israel wanted a two-state solution, consisting of a very weak Palestinian bantustan, with Bush in the White House it could have been easily achieved."
You've got to be joking! Ignoring your satirical use of the word 'bantustan', Hamas has never accepted a Two State solution as they have made very clear.
The fact that you say (277) "I think the ME would be more stable if Israel didn't exist" explains your position very clearly indeed.
To say that Israel's existence is the cause of all the problems is a bit like crashing a car into a wall, then saying the crash wouldn't have happened if the wall hadn't been there.
Israel exists. The challenge is to find a way to encourage all the countries to accept each other's right to peaceful existence and to make peace.
I'm sorry to say I don't find anything in your contribution to encourage a solution, other than Israel somehow ceasing to exist. Never mind. I'm sure your words will bring comfort to some!
When will there be a harvest for the world; Indeed!
Here we are almost 2009, and the age old manner of distruction and death still remains ripe through-out this world; where nations build their biggest technology budgets around weapons and defence.
What have we learned from history, "NOTHING"
Its a very, very sad world indeed people, I guess when leadership resorts to military action, Then all the sense of leadership and values is eroded, there is something fundamentally flawed with the human teachings, we will ever learn from "HISTORY"
#299-what a full angry set of I don't know what to call you!
Have just woken up up and been reading phoenixarisenq & flamepatricia discussion, the sad this is this what I hear many everyday people discussing day in day out, if they are angry people there are many, many more people out there with similar feelings.
Those paramedics might have saved the country a few thousands. Perhaps they knew more about the dying man than we do. It might have been a hopeless case and might have caused more distress.
On the whole Britain is caring and how many lives have those paramedics saved in the past.
Good morning, Wouldn't you say anger is better than apathy? As long as this emotion can be channelled into political means, rather than violence, I can see it as a positive reaction to perceived wrongs in society.
The Conservatives have no credibility whatsoever when it comes to talking about efficiency savings through reforming two-tier areas of local government.
This Government strongly encouraged two-tier areas to merge into a unitary authority. This would improve efficiency dramatically (both directly through less staff being needed and indirectly through the umpteen local partnerships that require large bureaucracy and painfully slow decision-making being far easier to manage). It would also help local government become more accountable - at the moment in two tier areas no-one has a clue who is responsible for what.
I worked for a large Conservative shire county in 2006 when the Government were looking at this. We were looking at the business case for reforming local government in this way. We found 100 MILLION POUNDS worth of direct efficiency savings - 10% of expenditure in the authority.
So, efficiency Cameron would want that you would think? No brainer?
But no. Cameron said no. 2 reasons given by the politicos at Conservative Central Office.
1. We do not want Labour to have any efficiency savings. We want to wait for a Conservative government if we were to do this, so then WE can claim the credit.
2. All two tier areas are Conservative-controlled. We would make a lot of our councillors redundant (and also be unable to quote statistics showing how the massively higher % of Conservative councillors there are than the % Labour) and also damage our grassroots base were we to merge authorities.
A third reason was that many county councillors were also district councillors. Turkeys do not vote for Christmas! The leader of the council I worked for was threatened with being the target of a press smear campaign if he pressed ahead - the media would be told of allegations of inappropriate behaviour with children. Local politics sure is nasty!
SO
Cameron has no credibility at all. He said "no" to 100 million a year of efficiency savings for political reasons.
The Israeli Zionists welcome Jews from any part of the world to settle in Israel. Their Law of Return, the very first law they enacted in 1948, gives all Jews the right of citizenship and settlement in Israel. You can't give them credit for absorbing Jewish refugees who left Arab countries to live in Israel, because that was their policy. The more Jews that emigrated to Israel, the better.
If Arab and Christian refugees had been allowed to return then Israel would not have had a Jewish majority in their so-called democratic state. Only by manipulating demography on a pseudo religious, but actually racist, basis can it masquerade under democratic credentials.
South Africa was castigated for its racism, and boycotted by the world community. Israel, just as motivated to maintain a racially based state - the only one in the world - has the wholehearted support of the US, because of the Jewish and Christian fundamentalist right lobby there, so that ensures it has to be right no matter what appalling actions it takes. In their eyes, it has the sanction of the Judeo-Christian God. No criticism of Israel can pass the lips of any serious US politician.
Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and John McCain all had to address the AIPAC Convention, the pro-Israel lobbying group in the US - the most powerful one in the country, and give Israel their outright backing. Without doing so, they had no hope of being elected.
Barack Obama's first appointment after his election, as Chief-of-Staff, was the Jewish Rahm Emanuel. Benjamin, Rahm's father, was a member of Irgun, a Zionist terrorist group responsible for bombing hotels, marketplaces as well as the infamous Deir Yassin massacre, in which hundreds of Palestinian villagers were slaughtered.
Benjamin Emanuel was quoted as saying on his son's appointment, "Obviously, he will influence the President to be pro-Israel. Why shouldn't he do it? What is he, an Arab? He's not going to clean the floor of the White House."
Its true that Rahm subsequently apologised for his father's gaffe, but to quote Mandy Rice-Davies, "He would say that, wouldn't he!"
I'm not particularly optimistic that the Palestinians will be much better off when Obama takes office, but it remains to be seen. Its difficult to believe that any President could be worse than Bush.
Britain isn't much better, Blair never criticised Israel during his premiership. He was subsequently appointed as special envoy for the Middle East Quartet (the EU, US, Russia and the UN) with a portfolio to bring about Palestinian economic and political reform (no mention of Israel). Ehud Olmert described Blair as, "A true friend of the State of Israel" when Blair resigned a PM.
Brown has appointed David Miliband, who is Jewish, as Foreign Secretary. Since his appointment he hasn't uttered one word of criticism, let alone condemnation, of Israel's disproportionate actions towards the Palestinians or the Lebanese.
The EU has extensive trade relations with Israel under the EU-Israel Association Agreement. Controversially, significant exports from Jewish settlements in the occupied territories to the EU have been taking place under the Agreement.
Racist South Africa was viewed as a pariah state, but Israel has few problems vis-a-vis the international community. I find that hypocritical in the extreme.
In the meantime the bombing and shelling of defenceless Gaza by F16 jets and Israeli warships continues. Apparently the tough approach increases the electoral support for the candidates in the forthcoming Israeli election. The victor will have bought his/her political success with the deaths of hundreds of innocent Palestinians. Shameful.
From your rantings you appear to be intolerant misanthropes, whose opinions belong to another era- probably when Britain ruled the waves, and peasants and foreigners knew their place.
Fortunately for the rest of us, the UK and beyond are not the broken societies you describe, and Britain in particular has become a far happier, and more prosperous, country since 1997.
That prosperity was largely gained through Britain's position as the world's most important financial centre. Unfortunately, the world's bankers grew too greedy and abused the very free market which sustained them and us. You'd prefer it to be Gordy's fault, or even Peter Mandelson's, but not even your warped logic can pin the collapse of the world's financial system on them. The free market ate itself.
It's hard for you Daily Mail and Telegraph types to accept, but what capitalism broke can only be fixed now by massive state intervention.
This would even be true if your chinless aristo free market heroes were in power, just look at what Bush and Paulson have had to swallow over the pond- nationalising Citibank for Gord's sake. So, you had better get used to the UK and the rest of the developed world becoming ever more dependent on governments- more state intervention I'm afraid.
The free market bust itself, so the bad old lefties are going to have to fix it. You had better pray their medicine works, because if not it will not be your boy wonders who benefit, nor will the wealthy escape with their fortunes in tact. Social unrest is the threat which hangs over us all, you only have to look at Greece, where banks and big business have been attacked by the mob.
So, swallow your principles for the next few years and get behind Gordy, for the good of us all, but especially yourselves.
I'd rather be behind him, than have him behind me, just ask Blair.
Better still, I'd rather be a million miles away from him. He's the most disgusting politician since Thatcher, despite heavy competition.
Look at how worthless those bits of paper with that woman's head on them, in your wallet, are becoming. How come that if its a US and world crisis, its sterling that's suffering the most?
Its undeniable that McBroon played a significant part in causing the problem - the facts speak for themselves.
Trouble is, the system only allows us the choice between one incompetent bunch or another.
I was listening to the Today programme that was put together by Cardinal CMO'C and his interview with Mr Brown. In it Mr Brown told the story of inviting the local burglar into the house when he was a child. I immediately knew exactly how his father felt; I have suffered the same countless times in the last 11 years.
"So swallow your principles for the next few years and get behind Gordy"
You conveniently ignore the disastrous mishandling of the economy and financial regulation of the current PM. Ok, the causes were not entirely confined to our own shores, but credit where it's due, Gordon Brown could hardly have done more to exacerbate the problems during his tenure in office.
Notwithstanding the damage already done, Brown's present policies are leading us further towards the precipice.
"We" didn't "save the banks" - the poultice of tax-payers money has patched over the surface, but the underlying wound is deep. For once, I would suggest nationalisation is needed so that the banks can be made to focus on helping the economy to recover, not on returning to profitability by extending their margins.
This is a time when interest rates should be realistic - a base rate of 5% perhaps, to encourage savings and inward investment and give support for the pound. The low rates are there to provide life support to the banks and because our national debt is so great that we need to reduce the amount of "dead money" (from taxpayers) needed to service the interest payments (let alone pay off the principal). The rest ("kick starting the economy") is spin.
I see Brown like that woman in the old Russian fable - as the wolves close in, she throws her children off the troika to keep the pack from attacking her. The only difference is that it's our children's livelihood rather than their lives that are being sacrificed.
Brown should go and go soon. Every day he lumbers on is a day further towards the edge.
We face a huge challenge in 2009. Even if there were a change of Government, I have little confidence that an incoming Conservative administration would be able to turn things around (as a second-rate opposition, they could turn out to be a third-rate Government, but then that's better than the present fifth-rate shower).
For all our sakes, I wish you and everyone else here a peaceful and prosperous New Year.
In the 60 years since Israel was founded estimates of total killed on all sides (including wars, intifadas and terrorism) is anything up to 125,000 military AND civilians.
That figure is just over 2,000 deaths a year.
Quite awful, but let's put this into perspective.
In other areas of the arab/muslim world things were actually worse:
- Yemen civil war '62-70 - 80,000 dead (10,000 per year).
- Algeria civil war '92-02 - 160,000 dead (10,000 per year)
- Syrian repression of Hama 1982 - 20,000 dead (all in one year. Wow!)
- Kashmir (2005 alone) 84,000 civilian deaths.
- Lebanon civil wars (various) - about 150,000.
- Sudan: we've all lost count....
- Iraq (self-inflicted and - uh - 'assisted'): let's not even go there!
As for other parts of the world: Congo - 4 million; Rwanda 800,000; Philippines 35,000; Balkans, Chechnia, Georgia... etc.. etc,
Am I being callous?
Hey, just last week 400 christians were massacred in Congo on Xmas Day by Ugandan rebels. I didn't see too much distraught reporting or popular outrage and demonstrations. I guess it's hard to pin that one on the Israelis or Jews......
"To stop most fighting in the world is easy. Ban all forms of religion."
Sorry, but it isn't due to any one or more "things". Take religion away and you're still left with in group/out group tension, tribalism, greed, need, futility, fear.
It's the condition of the human heart: until we find true peace to replace the universal detachment and brokenness, there can never be peace within and between nations.
# Great idea, Pol Pot tried the same thing and how swimingly that went you muppet. Stop pretending you think for yourself when you are just parroting domatic fundamentalists like Dawkings !
The Israeli situation may have been precipitated by the huge losses suffered by the NY Jewish circles in a certain pyramid scam, and by the replacement of a Republican president by a Democrat one who not only is of Muslim origins but has already pronounced policies aimed at weakening the Israeli position. Listening to recent interviews, they feel painted into the same kind of corner they faced in 1973, with the bonus of the 1967 threat that Arab holdings a very short distance from the coast are capable of cutting them in half and not much scope to manoeuvre. The difference this time is they have the initiative, we know this is but the first of five phases, and that they have seriously lost it with arab fundamentalism. A nightmare scenario suggests this means they have every interest in going all the way now, in other words pushing the 3 million refugees from Gaza into Egypt, taking the canal to let a cover force through, before spinning smartly left through Eilat to follow the Red Sea coast down the Mecca - the race will then be on between them and the Saudi forces, who've got further yet to go getting there from Riyadh. That way they can destroy all three Muslim holy sites and leave the fundamentalists without a fundament. The Muslim world might yet pay dearly for their abuse of UN decisions.
Really, old chap, fancy suggesting I get behind Gordon Brown. Still, you can't really wish me serious ill, you didn't suggest that he and his crony Lord Mandy get behind me!!! Happy New Year and watch your back!!!!!
No General Election this year as UK economy starts to pick up in spring/early summer 2010.
Labour lose an election called then despite having managed the recession reasonably well in difficult, partly self-inflicted circumstances, mainly because the people desire a change of faces in charge; with a sub-text of the English finally tiring of Scottish professional politicians running England.
Off topoic, this is New Year's Eve after all, and soon most of the country will be going mad. Just heard on BBC radio a review of the past year. Max Mosley's sordid little adventure got great coverage. He denied any Nazi connotations. I believe him. There was just him and five, yes FIVE ladies of the night. It must have been a case of share and share alike. Not Fascism, surely Marxism at its purest, or impurest, depending on your bent. His parents must be spinning in their graves.
This is something to make you laugh - or not depending upon how serious you all are on this last day of 2008.
I asked my husband (who is not remotely interested in politics) how on earth a Jewish foreign secretary, Milliband, will approach the Israeli military action problem.
It's funny how when some people start to criticise Israel, it doesn't take them too long to get around to Jews in general. Perhaps you think Jewish people shouldn't hold public office just in case they can't act 'impartially'.
That is ridiculous. Of course Jewish people should hold office if they have the necessary qualities. What I am saying is he is likely to be more emotive, involved etc. and it may be personally difficult for him. He's probably got friends and relatives out there.
Religion is the way of nearly all ways the reason for war.
Remove religion and why fight, why hate no need to fear getting on a bus and being blow to bits. Its causes trouble from world leaders right down to Rangers and Celtic football fans. Even in families were one has to change religion so two people who are in love with each other can get married.
#343 Ozymandias (I met a traveller from a distant land...)
According to your link, Milliband has called for the EU to call for a ceasefire "on both sides" (although that is not part of the direct quotation):
"Mr Milliband dismissed that idea [Nick Clegg's proposal that the EU suspend a co-operation agreement with Israel] as "naive" but said EU ministers should "maintain the international calls for a ceasefire" on both sides.
"These are louder and louder calls and they are increasingly unanimous," he said. "
If you read my previous comments about Milliband, you will see that I refuse to get drawn in over his provenance just for the reasons you give.
His singular lack of action in a key position is another matter altogether.
flamepatricia we are not listening to you we are having a party
Greetings and blessings to each and everyone inter-outer national globally, It has been a while, but we are back with a big bag of selection to skank out the nation with chapter meets version excursion!!
Forget about Sterling-Euro being anything to do with economic fundamentals- anyone in the game will tell you that it's a non-starter. The hedge funds have got a bee in their bonnet for shorting sterling at the moment- well, they're not allowed to short the banks any longer, and anyway bank shares cannot fall below zero so there's little profit to be made there. It's like when the hedge funds ramped oil up to $147, it had nothing to do with fundamentals, and sooner or later they'll all try to take profit on sterling at once. Meanwhile, all UK exporters should try to fix their rates here for as far into the future as possible... The current rate is great for Britain, and terrible for the Eurozone- they can hardly try to raise prices on us, can they?
Also, forget any ideas you may have that Brown or any UK prime minister had / has any control over what the world's major (non-nationalised) banks get up to. No commentator, nor Cameron, Cable, Osbourne, has ever offered any evidence that GB could have prevented the global investment banking industry from parcelling up mortgages and selling them to retail investors (inc. deposit-taking banks) as AAA rated, when they were, in reality, junk. Much of this activity happened in cyberspace between New York, London and the tax havens where big investors generally park their cash.
No one has yet pinned this on Brown because of reality- it really was not his job to tell the UK's chief culprits (RBS, HBOS etc) which assets they were allowed to buy, trade or hold. Now it's all gone wrong, however, of course the free-market gurus of global banking bleat for more state intervention. While they were raking in billions, though, regulation was anathema to the banks, who threatened to move their cash cows out of any jurisdiction which threatened to regulate (or tax) them too heavily.
As for raising rates to 5% to protect sterling- it's pointless, for it would cause an immediate slide into depression, leading to mass unemployment, and a real collapse in the pound. On the contrary, having a currency which can be slowly devalued, as has happened to sterling, is a big advantage for us at the moment- we are paying ourselves less, and we owe less, without a great deal of pain. Contrast our position with that of eg Ireland, in which mortgage and other debts are currently increasing in value whilst the country becomes ever less competitive.
You can sense that Eurozone members don't like our competitive advantage gained by a weak pound from their politicians' negative comments- it does not help Germany that one of its main export markets now pays it 30% less in Euro terms for its products, nor does having a very cheap competitor on its doorstep help it to preserve German jobs.
Having a weak currency and low interest rates will protect us from the worst of this recession. Low base rates also help UK banks to recapitalise via increased margins, no bad thing for us taxpayers as we own a great chunk of them.
In my opinion, what is needed now in the financial sector is not more regulation - the banks were already heavily regulated and still made bad mistakes - but more transparency.
Transparency, commensurate with appropriate 'commercial confidentiality' should do the trick and reveal unhealthy practices before they get out-of-hand in the future.
Happy New Year to everyone. In the meantime, this is what is going on around the world.
The US government expanded its bailout of the auto industry, while Japan reportedly considered a $110 billion scheme to buy bad loans from banks, the latest in a string of government moves aimed at reducing the damage from the worst downturn since the 1930s.
Japanese stocks finished modestly higher on their last trading day of 2008, capping a grim year which saw the Nikkei index plunge 42 per cent, the biggest loss in its 58-year history, as recession fears battered global markets.
Analysts forecast more pain for consumers and investors in 2009 as bleak economic news continued to flood in from around the world, but said hopes of more government rescue packages were helping to shore up financial markets for now.
"Everyone's pinning their hopes on economic stimulus policies by the US and possibly China," said Tomomi Yamashita, a fund manager at Shinkin Asset Management.
"But people aren't watching things like company results as closely as they should be. We can't say for sure that the market's bottomed out until we see these next spring."
The US government said late on Monday it was pumping $5 billion into General Motors' auto and mortgage financing arm GMAC and lending an additional $1 billion to GM to help it buy shares in GMAC, which is considered crucial to GM's survival. The loan to GM would come on top of assistance extended to the No. 1 US automaker earlier this month.
The government agreed on December 19 to rescue GM and Chrysler LLC with up to $17.4 billion in loans to stave off a collapse that would have cost hundreds of thousands of jobs and dealt a severe blow to an economy already in recession.
GMAC has lost $7.9 billion over the last five quarters as the global credit crunch lifted its borrowing costs sharply and the value of many of its assets plunged.
Japan's government may also be weighing fresh moves to keep the country from sliding deeper into recession. The Sankei Shimbun yesterday reported that the government and central bank are hoping to launch a $110 billion scheme by the end of March to buy bad loans and other financial assets from banks using public money to ease the corporate credit crunch.
The move would theoretically free up banks to lend more money to companies which are struggling to raise funds through more traditional means such as selling bonds or new shares. But banks worldwide are growing more reluctant to lend as they brace for a slew of bad loans as economies sour.
Analysts also doubted whether any such plan would be as effective today as in the late 1990s, when Japanese banks were saddled with a much bigger pile of bad loans.
The global crisis has shut many firms out of credit markets and slashed their earnings, forcing companies to postpone expansions, reduce production and cut staff, further undermining economic growth and impeding recovery.
South Korea yesterday pledged to ramp up support for its banks next year as more grim economic news flooded in.
South Korea's industrial output fell 10.7 per cent in November the biggest monthly decline since 1987, as domestic and export demand slumped. Some analysts say Asia's fourth-largest economy will shrink next year for the first time in 11 years, putting pressure on its central bank to cut interest rates further.
In New Zealand, data showed household borrowing fell for the first time in 17 years in November as consumers cut spending in the face of recession. Without a solid revival in consumer spending, there is little hope for a strong global recovery. Reports on Monday showed Europe was also slipping into a deeper funk. The French economy stalled, morale at Italian businesses sank to its lowest level since at least 1991 and the Chartered Institute of Personnel Development forecast as many as 600,000 people could lose their jobs in Britain next year.
Many forecasters believe the downturn will continue well into mid-2009, with more layoffs and bankruptcies to come, but investors are hoping battered stock markets will rebound sooner in anticipation of a recovery.
"2008 was the year of the serpent, everyone got bitten," said fund manager Paul Biddle with Souls Funds Management in Australia.
In short, the UK is not doing worse then others, so one has to be optimistic, that by the end of 2009 we shall mount this GLOBAL recession!
339. flamepatricia 337. Sorry to but in but it may be difficult for Milliband, who is Jewish, to look at things impartially. That's all.
Hello flamepatricia, After we have both been castigated so harshly together, it' s a pity that I must disagree with you. I believe that Milliband, like 99.9% of politicans puts politics ahead of any religious ethics. An ambitious person will certainly make homage to Rome (as stated in the New Testament) rather than to the Lord G-d. In any case, this is irrevelant in Milliband's case, since although of Jewish extraction he was raised by a Marxist father and is the typical product of extreme armchair socialism. In 341. You wrote that your husband thought 'he probably spoke the language.' I doubt that he speaks Hebrew, he is more likely to speak Russian. Finally, I don't think having the same religion affects politicans in any manner. Consider the recent Balkan wars. The Serbs, a mainly Christian people were.not supported by the West, whereas the Moslems received their patronage. The massacre of Christians, Catholics in this instance on Christmas Eve in the Congo hasnt' received any Christian support from nominally Christian governments. Support is only given, unfortunately for political reasons and rarely for truly altruistic reasons. As a non-believing, non-practicising man of Jewish descent, Milliband will no doubt go out of his way to prove he has no hidden agendas or sentiments. He will certainly be no Wingate, who was a Gentile friend of Jewish pioneers of pre-State Israel.
Please Moderator let this blog go through. There is nothing libellous nor abusive in it. 339. flamepatricia 337. Sorry to but in but it may be difficult for Milliband, who is Jewish, to look at things impartially. That's all. Hello flamepatricia, After we have both been castigated so harshly together, it' s a pity that I must disagree with you. I believe that Milliband, like 99.9% of politicans puts politics ahead of any religious ethics. An ambitious person will certainly make homage to Rome (as stated in the New Testament) rather than to the Lord G-d. In any case, this is irrevelant in Milliband's case, since although of Jewish extraction he was raised by a Marxist father and is the typical product of extreme armchair socialism. In 341. You wrote that your husband thought 'he probably spoke the language.' I doubt that he speaks Hebrew, he is more likely to speak Russian. Finally, I don't think having the same religion affects politicans in any manner. Consider the recent Balkan wars. The Serbs, a mainly Christian people were.not supported by the West, whereas the Moslems received their patronage. The massacre of Christians, Catholics in this instance on Christmas Eve in the Congo hasnt' received any Christian support from nominally Christian governments. Support is only given, unfortunately for political reasons and rarely for truly altruistic reasons. As a non-believing, non-practicising man of Jewish descent, Milliband will no doubt go out of his way to prove he has no hidden agendas or sentiments. He will certainly be no Wingate, who was a Gentile friend of Jewish pioneers of pre-State Israel.
You say "Of course Jewish people should hold office if they have the necessary qualities"
That's good news indeed! But I would have thought that would apply to people of any religion (or none)
You say: "What I am saying is he is likely to be more emotive, involved etc. and it may be personally difficult for him"
and (#339) "it may be difficult for Milliband, who is Jewish, to look at things impartially"
So, if you doubt his ability to act impartially, it seems to me you are saying he doesn't have the "necessary qualities". Simply based on the fact he is Jewish!
It's been lovely today, Liberty Hall, almost no moderated out blogs. Now suddenly, an innocent letter I wrote is causing furor. Have the regular moderators gone off for the holidays and a team of dour-faced miseries taken their place! If I don't get the chance tonight, or rather, this year. Happy New Year to you all, and until the next time.......
My last comment has been removed too. Yet the message to which I was replying is still there (as it should be!)
It would be absolutely astonishing if earlier comments questioning Miliband's suitability based on his religion are deemed OK, but the BBC removes a message that objects!
I wasn't questioning DM's suitability for the post of FS on the basis of his religious affiliations ... he's described as a 'Jewish atheist' (that's not quite the same as simply 'atheist', if you take the trouble to read about it in Wiki or elsewhere) just an observation that he has been uncritical of Israel's disproportionate actions re the Palestinians.
It was a British Foreign Secretary, Arthur Balfour (& former PM).. a Christian.. who paved the way for the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine. I'm led to believe that he had personal religious beliefs as well as political reasons for his support of the Zionist movement.
Balfour was an adherent of the teachings of John Nelson Darby (1800-82.. an Anglo-Irish evangelist and an influential member of the Plymouth Brethren) who was the father of modern Dispensationalism. Darby's beliefs about the fate of the Jews and the re-establishment of the Kingdom of Israel put dispensationalists at the forefront of Christian Zionism. In essence they hold that Israel had to be re-established in the holy land before the Second Coming of Christ could take place. It is a doctrine held by millions of fundamentalist and pentecostal believers in the US (and elsewhere). There's a lot to it, if you care to read up about it.
I don't agree that a person's religious beliefs (or lack of belief) will necessarily prevent him/her from being impartial, not that impartiality is always a good thing. Often its necessary to take sides, because one side is simply 'wrong'.
Phoenix - I bow to your greater knowledge and am impressed.
I do not have the historical or in-depth knowledge that you and some others have; I speak from instinct as (forgive the expression!) woman (or person if I must) on the street!
My forte is fine art, for which I was originally trained before going on to work at the Treasury as a secretary, eons ago. (Strange course, I know!).
However, I find myself being more and more interested in politics and am amazed at the apathy and complacency of many of the general public, - some don't even vote.
You would think they would take an interest because it's their lives and their children's lives and futures which are affected.
I would like to take this opportunity to wish everyone here a Happy and a Healthy New Year. Let's hope that it's not too bleak.
Dear flamepatricia, I was sincerely moved by your kind words. How wonderful to have studied fine art, a subject which I have always found fascinating. Life is weird, after training in such a gracious discipline, being thrown into the nitty-gritty of finance. Still, I am sure your earlier training enriched your outlook and whole life. Once again I wish you and all friends and 'enemies' on the forum a Very Happy New Year. Haven't forgotten you, either, grandantidote, power_to_the_people and all, and trust you are not creating havoc on this New Year's Eve! I'm off to bed since I'm exhausted with all this blogging. Good Nite!!!
But i do not think charging up to c.17000 quid a year is a fair way of keeping the numbers down
I agreed with the fees as they are now (and I did have to pay them) because too many people do go, and it would be unfair for the state to fund all of them
but these sort of extortionate fees, which are designed to create a sort of american system, are grossly unfair - the very fact 'american' is mentioned should ring alarm bells
what will happen is the old elitism will return - only the wealthy will be able to afford to go to the best unis, leaving most people out regardless of intelligence, the poorest will undoubtedly get grants - and those in the middle will, as usual, feel the squeeze and have to fund their way through because they just about meet the income level
why is it when it comes to a left-wing idea i can support comes around, labour can't even get that right
anyway, happy new year people, see you in the afternoon of 2009
#366. At 8:15pm on 31 Dec 2008, brynt41 wrote: #365 DT
"I wasn't questioning DM's suitability for the post of FS on the basis of his religious affiliations ... he's described as a 'Jewish atheist' (that's not quite the same as simply 'atheist', if you take the trouble to read about it in Wiki or elsewhere) just an observation that he has been uncritical of Israel's disproportionate actions re the Palestinians."
Come on. If you're an atheist it simply means you can't accept some "God" figure who created the universe, life and everything.
Wiki is a plague. Allows all sorts of stuff to gain credence (belief - which is like believing in a God or the lack of him/her/it...).
Since Jews, Christians and Muslims believe in the same God, why could anyone believe that an atheist is anything other than a person who doesn't believe in a being who allowed the Big Bang to kick off this mess?
What do you want? A Jewish athesit? A Christian atheist? A Muslim atheist? A Hindu atheist? A Zoroastrian atheist?
Then what? A question on the next set of intrusive census forms to find out what relgious/cultural background you came from (or could have had any influence on your thinking) before you became an atheist?
You don't have to believe in a God to do something good.
You have to be pretty odd if you fight people who believe in the same God but want to dress him/her/it in specially coloured clothes.
(Probably determined by spin-doctors we tend to tolerate because they have a calling towards a particular voice...)
If the "English" - still not sure who they are - had wanted to, they would have elminated the "Welsh" - whoever they are - over the previous millennium.
Sounds as though you can still hold a grudge. After 1,000 years? Come on.
If the majority people living in what we call England, or the Norman/Anglos or other people had pushed the Welsh into the sea, (which could easily have happened) would you think that your ancestors - grandparents - would have been pleased to have a "homeland" in what we call Wales?
And would you want to fight for the "right" to stay there?
I'm not that happy about anything to do with the M.E. It's all been divided up as a result of external "diplomatic" activities. Just like Africa.
Lines on a map don't necessarily mean anything.
Do European nations bear responsiblity. Yes. Up to a point, Lord Cooper. Mugabe isn't a "nice guy". Stuffing up his people for purely political objectives. At least the Israelis have made a fairly arid area deliver quite a lot of natural resources.
If the USA pulled the plug, Israel could disappear. Leaving what, exactly? Another series of inter-Arab wars?
The sooner the West develops an alternative to oil-based energy, the better.
#334 WOW! Reality - just listen carefully to what's coming out of Tel Aviv. Another factor which will argues against the Israelis putting up with the usual UN practices of prevarication and negociation to gain time in the hopes things will cool down is the imminence of the General Election in Feb 12, by which time they need a decisive and absolute resolution. Their forces gathering on the Gaza strip border aren't a little raid, this is a clear-out of a pest-hole on a massive and permanent scale in preparation. As they don't have any carpet to sweep them under and Egypt's done naff all to stop the tunnelling and supplying of military merchandise, I do hope Mubarrak has some tents, as this is three times the number who Moses led the other way all those years ago, and it took them forty years to settle down after being kicked out. Just to put a framework on this, the governing Kadima party is pretty much a rebadged Likud, who were responsible foir the Sabra and Shatila massacres in 1982, when the Israelis similarly expunged equally troublesome (from their point of view, at least) PLO forces in the Beka valley. This would be echoed in 2006 in the Hezbollah rocketing of Northern Israel following Israeli attacks in retaliation for the abduction/murder of 2 soldiers. The odd thing to my mind is that we have seen the PLO move into a lower stance, followed by Hezbollah, and Fatah dissapear into the Syrian political régime. Is it possible that this will see Hamas brought back into the fold, at the expense of significant further disruption in the mean time? Although Livni is both ex-Mossad and the daughter of sabrah parents, she is also something of a dove - where possible. However, her current statements indicate that this has been excluded as an option. Time will tell.
In the mean time, my thoughts are with a large number of good friends and colleagues manning the Rafah crossing. Pietro and friends, keep the faith.
Anyway, rahere's wish for 2009 is what many usually ask for, but are most unlikely to get this year - out with the old, in with the new... Old bankers Old policies Old Iberian practices Old formerly-nationalised monopolies
Don't often agree with you, but it's fairly evident that politicians are increasingly unable to understand an historical context.
Bit sad, when our PM has a PhD in History. (Even allowing for the fact that his thesis was based on a Scottish Independent Labour Party firebrand... Recognised as a real parliamentarian, even by Churchill!)
We went through some of this garbage before. (Even during my lifetime...) We've seen the stupidity of the "Internet boom". That was nothing to do with "value" - just "expectation".
So why didn't the massive brains in No 10 and 11 - with all those special advisors - miss the fact that credit-based growth was, quite frankly, as stupid as you can get?
Wealth and security are different. Having enough to eat and being able to "go home" to a place that you know will be there is enough for most folk. Probably not achievable for millions.
Having some bloke employed via taxes to check whether your child brushed his/her teeth probably just qualify as a justification for a job paid for by tax-payers.
We're just about there.
Too many bloody stupid "publicly-required" tasks being carried out, at our cost, when government can't even manage it's finance properly.
If he goes first-footing, I just hope that the poor folk he calls on have made sure they've hidden their bank books, pension credits or credit cards away.
Otherwise, it could be a very expensive New Year for them, as well as us.
But, hey, you pensioners in care - you'll get another 75p per week soon, so go out and celebrate...
With a half of... what exactly?
Milk of human kindness can only make sense if the bloke who dispenses it actually owns the means to be generous.
If you asked someone for a one thousand pound loan to get through a tough patch, then he turned around and said -"Well sure, just give me a moment while I gather that from people who don't really know I'm taking it from them and probably can't afford it", you'd still be pleased to get it.
But the guy who gave it would still "owe" the others.
Doesn't work like that. He'll never pay it back himself.
Just borrow even more from other people and (as Chesterton said) "Hide the leaf in the forest"...
Pity he's taking it from my kids, your kids and possibly their kids.
It would have been really good if Gord could have said, in a fairly humble way, "We screwed up".
It sounds fairly comprehensive and authoritative, with quite a few Notes, Citations and References. See what you think, after reading it.
As for being Welsh, whoever we are, what's wrong with that? Most peoples don't like to be invaded, conquered, and subjugated. Because it happened a long time ago (circa 700 years, not 1,000) doesn't (perhaps entirely) wipe the injustice from the psyche.
"Come on"
...... don't be patronising.
Why is it that it rankles with so many English people, that we minorities in the UK might not want to live in a society dominated by another culture? Our resources exploited, our language decimated, our history marginalised, even in our schools, and we aren't even considered mature enough to have a legislative assembly.
I don't question your right to have an English monarch, but I'm not English. I want a Welsh head of state. Is that unreasonable? I don't want an Anglo-German prince imposed on my country whose existence continually reminds me that I belong to a once conquered people. I don't want a flag composed of other people's symbols.
"Lines on a map don't necessarily mean anything."
Oh yes they do! Try building a garage six inches over your neighbour's boundary and see what happens, or let him do that to you. You sound very smug. Lines on a map are extremely pertinent to the Israelis and the Palestinians. Its the Israelis that are drawing them. One of them represents a massive concrete wall around the West Bank and Gaza.
"The sooner the West develops an alternative to oil-based energy, the better."
I'd say the sooner the West leaves people to their own destiny the better. By the West, I mean Britain and the USA, who between them have caused the majority of the world's problems in the last couple of centuries.
Btw, most Americans and Germans think that all of us in these islands are English. So perhaps we can substitute 'England' for 'Britain' in my previous paragraph.
You wrote: "I wasn't questioning DM's suitability for the post of FS on the basis of his religious affiliations"
Well, did I misunderstand?
At #318 you said "Brown has appointed David Miliband, who is Jewish, as Foreign Secretary. Since his appointment he hasn't uttered one word of criticism, let alone condemnation, of Israel's disproportionate actions towards the Palestinians or the Lebanese."
I assumed, perhaps wrongly, due to this juxtaposition you were making a connection between Miliband being Jewish and your assertion that he "hasn't uttered one word of criticism". (Actually, he has called for a ceasefire)
If that's not what you meant, why mention his religion at all?
At # 203 you complained "You resort to the same tactics as the Zionists. Any criticism of Israel results in the label 'anti-semitic'"
I didn't bring up his religion. You did (318)! In fact, I have no idea how he would describe himself!
Just for clarity, it wasn't me who used the expression 'Jewish atheist' .
I suppose one can feel culturally Christian, Jewish, Moslem, Hindu etc - but not actually believe in all the trappings of the religion in question. I have no idea what (if any) religion the Foreign Secretary signs up to. My point was to enquire why others felt it necessary to mention it, and how it was relevant to his job.
On the last census I was one of the many who put down Jedi Knight. In fact, it may surprise you that I'm not really from a galaxy far far away - but I just don't think it's any of the government's business!!
You say: "You have to be pretty odd if you fight people who believe in the same God but want to dress him/her/it in specially coloured clothes"
Yes, absolutely correct. Those who think it is God's will to kill others for believing in a different way have missed the whole point!
You say: "You don't have to believe in a God to do something good"
True!
Some might even consider that the real question is not whether we believe in God, but whether God still believes in us. Given the appalling behaviour of humankind, we can only hope...
Calling for a ceasfire does not amount to criticism of Israel. It does not apportion blame or responsibility. The closest Miliband has come is to say, "Israel must abide by its humanitarian obligations".
He is Jewish, he is FS, and he hasn't condemned Israel's disproportionate actions. His reluctance to do so may or may not be connected with his being Jewish.
Not all Jewish people are Zionists. There are quite a number of orthodox Jews who are opposed to the Zionist philosophy. Some have marched and protested with the 'Stop the War' Coalition and are sickened by the behaviour of Israel towards the Palestinians. Indeed, there are Israelis who feel the same way, to their credit.
The LibDem spokesman, Ed Davey, has condemned Israeli actions as "utterly disproportionate". William Hague has not.
So by saying "Calling for a ceasfire does not amount to criticism of Israel" what you really seem to be complaining about is that Miliband is not taking your side!
You say (at # 366) "Often its necessary to take sides, because one side is simply 'wrong'."
So, that would be doubly wrong if it's not the same side as you!! You won't be satisfied unless Miliband entirely blames Israel.
Personally, I interpret Miliband's actions as not wishing to inflame the situation. He acknowledges that the rockets from Hamas have to stop, but at the same time he is calling a halt to the current fighting. He also asks for decent humanitarian standards to be restored in Gaza.
The best way for Gaza to enjoy decent standards is for the establishment of an independent state that is willing to live in peace with its neighbours. The two state solution.
But while Hamas refuses to recognise Israel's right to exist and fires thousands of rockets across the border, the appalling conditions for the population will probably continue. Hamas wants a one-state solution, and that is the whole problem.
As Abraham Lincoln said: "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them". That would be my hope for the future - and actually, I believe it IS possible. But it requires a desire for peace rather than destruction.
You choose to devote your energy to complaining about the existence of Israel.
I choose to urge people to be good neighbours and look for a peaceful settlement.
IF THE ENEMIES OF iSRAEL CHOOSE TO IGNORE WARNINGS NOT TO INDISCRIMINATELY ATTACK THEIR MORE POWERFUL ADVERSARIES THEN THEY DESERVE TO SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES HORRIFIC THOUGH THEY MAY BE.
Nice to see Gordon Browns New Year message in particular the statement: "the British people and the government had shown their ability to meet similar challenges in the past."
The challenge we now face is one of a bankrupt government courtesy of Mr Brown. I don't think that "ability" is a word that should be linked to this government. How about irresponsible?
Still living on another planet by the looks of it, my bet is Uranus.
I accept that there is a matriarchal lineage that "makes" someone "Jewish" as soon as they're born. It doesn't make them "believers". If it did, the Russian revolution probably would never have got off the ground... In terms of going through the routines, I could point at quite a lot of CoE ministers who seem to follow the practices, but not necessarily believe in the abstract of a God...
"As for being Welsh, whoever we are, what's wrong with that? Most peoples don't like to be invaded, conquered, and subjugated. Because it happened a long time ago (circa 700 years, not 1,000) doesn't (perhaps entirely) wipe the injustice from the psyche."
I've nothing against the Welsh, Scots, Irish, even English. I think most "English" have got over the fact that the Romans, the Angles, then the Normans (and other assorted Vikings) and even Willem of Orange (who actually brought an army to gain the UK thrown...) have "subjugated" them over time.
Still say it was a Norman dynasty that "did down" the Welsh. In fact, the English court started conversing in English after the Scots had used the language...
"... "Come on" ...... don't be patronising."
Wasn't trying to patronise. Sorry if that was the impression you gained.
"Why is it that it rankles with so many English people, that we minorities in the UK might not want to live in a society dominated by another culture? Our resources exploited, our language decimated, our history marginalised, even in our schools, and we aren't even considered mature enough to have a legislative assembly."
I'm old enough to have been taught British history (which doesn't happen nowadays). So learned about Llywelyn, Glyndwr, Robert the Bruce, William Wallace etc along side "English" people like Boudicca, Alfred etc. (And enjoyed background reading too!) Don't expect history to be taught in schools. Most children only learn about WWII, maybe WWI - with no idea of the geo-politics of the centuries that allowed such nonsenses to occur.
Funny, but a lot of English clamour (wrongly, in my view) for an English legislative assembly. That went away when a United Kingdom was created. Does that make the English immature, as well?
"I don't question your right to have an English monarch, but I'm not English. I want a Welsh head of state. Is that unreasonable? I don't want an Anglo-German prince imposed on my country whose existence continually reminds me that I belong to a once conquered people. I don't want a flag composed of other people's symbols."
Come on... (Non-patronising!). Henry Tudor was of Welsh descent. His successor - apparently proud of his heritage - rolled Wales and England into a common realm. So if you want to have a pop at the subjugators, check out who enabled it! Far as I can see, the Tudors didn't really cause too much damage to the Welsh.
..."Lines on a map don't necessarily mean anything."
Oh yes they do! Try building a garage six inches over your neighbour's boundary and see what happens, or let him do that to you. You sound very smug. Lines on a map are extremely pertinent to the Israelis and the Palestinians. Its the Israelis that are drawing them. One of them represents a massive concrete wall around the West Bank and Gaza.
Smug? Moi? (Sorry. French wife - Norman actually - and these things slip out a la Absolutely Fabulous...)
Just saying that "national boundaries/ borders" are simply man-made, imaginary constructs. (OK, an island can have a geographical "edge". But that doesn't stop a relatively small body of land having more than one nation within it. Check out Dominican Republic/Haiti on the island of Hispaniola. Or tiny French/Dutch Saint Martin/Maarten.) Wales has boundaries that fluctuated over the centuries. France, too. For most of history, Italy was a geographic description, not a nation.
Israel seems to have been a rough area, entered by a wandering people way back. Most peoples wandered, way back. Looking for food or refuge. The present Jewish Israel seems to be a bit of land that some people call their "spiritual home". It's not very big.
Fly across Europe and try to imagine any "logical" borders. Impossible. Likewise any other continent. The Berlin wall was concrete, too. Where is it now?
It just seems so rediculous that Jews, Christians, Muslims squabble over a bit of land, when all of them look at Jerusalem as a focal point of their religions.
"The sooner the West develops an alternative to oil-based energy, the better."
I'd say the sooner the West leaves people to their own destiny the better. By the West, I mean Britain and the USA, who between them have caused the majority of the world's problems in the last couple of centuries."
Sorry. Most Americans could hardly point out England on a map! (Probably true of most UK kids nowadays...)
I think you forget a guy called Napoleon - the original European Union guy... OK by force, with a non-referendum approach.
And a bloke called Hitler. Maybe Stalin, or Mao, who killed off more people than any others in history?
Don't think any of the above led nations called the USA or UK.
The USA was reluctant to get involved in WWI. And very, very reluctant to get dragged into WWII. They didn't start it. They didn't want it. They did help the ruined countries to get back on their feet. It wasn't pure charity, for sure.
Should Israel be more tolerant? Probably. Could the surrounding nations do a bit to help out? Undoubtedly. Will they? Let's hope so.
Should any "people" have a "right" to a piece of land they can administer? No idea. Perhaps we should check with the Iraqi Kurds. Or the Comanche or Apache. What about the Basques?
Fact is that boundaries (like history) are determined by the imposition of physical or mental will. If Wales were to be "independent", it could only do so if it also broke away from the EU. Having an independent legislature is a waste of time if some other "superior" body rains down legislation for fun.
I can't blame "Jews" for trying to sustain a territory. (I guess that, at one point, the US could have ceded part of its territory for that purpose. Or the Jews could have done a "Mormon thing" and carved out a piece for themselves...) Don't blame "Palestinians" for wanting to co-exist in a peaceful manner. Just don't get the notion that people who share a common heritage, common God and many prophets feel the need to beat he stuff out of each other.
Once again we can find £7m to give away in so call aid. Both sides can find money for jet fighters, rockets, guns and other weapons so let them find money for aid.
"One in ten workers will be out of a job by the end of the worst recession in Britain since the end of the Second World War, business leaders warn today.
A devastating forecast from the British Chambers of Commerce says unemployment will rise to a peak of 3.1million over the next two years, some 10 per cent of the workforce.
It says the economic situation is deteriorating so rapidly that national income will contract by 2.9 per cent in the 15 months to the end of September."
"Sterling is tanking not only against the euro but also against the currencies of the world's most unstable regimes.
The pound fell to another record low against the single currency yesterday, hitting €1.02. It sank to its lowest level since records began in 1990 against a basket of leading currencies. On top of this, the pound is looking badly tarnished when compared with the currencies of Somalia, Burma, Belarus, Sudan, and a host of other poor and precarious economies.
Since Gordon Brown became Prime Minister in 2007, sterling has lost 24% against the Somalian shilling, 27% against the Burmese Kyat, 25% against Belarus's ruble and more than 20% against the Sudanese pound.
It also lost at least a quarter of its value against the currencies of Yemen, Kazakhstan, Albania, and Libya, according to figures compiled by the Conservatives. One of the biggest declines has been a 38% slump against Moldova's lei.
The dismal figures underline the scale of sterling's rout as confidence in Britain's economy ebbs. The pound has lost a quarter of its value against the euro amid predictions we will suffer the worst contraction of any Group of Seven nation next year.
The declines follow warnings from Bank of England governor Mervyn King in October that the UK could suffer a 'mild form' of the capital flight seen in emerging market crises of the 1990s.
The data is particularly embarrassing for Gordon Brown, who lashed John Major's government in 1992 for presiding over sterling's humiliating ejection from the Exchange Rate Mechanism."
===
"A weak currency is the sign of a weak economy, which is the sign of a weak Government."
"As for being Welsh, whoever we are, what's wrong with that? Most peoples don't like to be invaded, conquered, and subjugated. Because it happened a long time ago (circa 700 years, not 1,000) doesn't (perhaps entirely) wipe the injustice from the psyche"
Now replace 'the Welsh' with 'the Jews' and update your statement accordingly:
As for being Jewish, whoever [they] are, what's wrong with that? Most peoples don't like to be invaded, conquered, and subjugated. Because it happened a long time ago [circa 2,000 years] doesn't (perhaps entirely) wipe the injustice from the psyche.
Surely what's good for the Welsh goose is good for the Jewish gander....
I went into the Downing Street site this morning to catch the flavour of the heavily leaked PMs New Year message. I show below just a couple of extracts because I have never read such a load of tosh in my life, it is pure rhetoric :-
We must not just plan for tomorrow. Our task over the next twelve months is to build tomorrow today.
So that Britain creates the thousands of new tech jobs for the digital age now ahead of us, we must build the digital tomorrow, today
So that Britain creates the thousands of green jobs vital for the environment and our economy, we must build that green future of tomorrow, today.
So that we have the best railways, roads and communications for the future, we must build the infrastructure of tomorrow, today.
So we have the right skills for the future we must not let people’s lives waste away in unemployment without trying to help. So that they have the skills our country needs we must build that tomorrow, today.
Now, does everybody get the message, action this day, today, now, immediately. So, why exactly is there this massive public holiday, what exactly are we celebrating. Waht is Gordon Brown doing TODAY, not tomorrow.
I have never felt so depressed, there is no hope with the present incumbant, he has so lost the plot.
I mean look at the first extract and think about what he is actually saying 'our task over the next twelve months is to build tomorrow today'. Seriously fellow Britons, what on earth is the man trying to say, please please I beseech you Gordon, please just go, leave us to our fate.
The difference is we remained here, subjugated, exploited etc, and haven't therefore returned to take the land from others.
#386 fairlyopenmind
"Having an independent legislature is a waste of time if some other "superior" body rains down legislation for fun."
So very true.
Ever heard of Poynings Law (1494) by which the English Crown controlled the Irish Parliament?
That just about sums up the Government of Wales Act 2006 by which the 'English' Parliament (cuz that's what it is really, as it has a massive permanent English majority) decides which pathetic little measures the Welsh Assembly can take. A Commons committee, the unelected Lords and the Secretary of State for Wales (who more often than not over the last 30 years hasn't been Welsh) each has a veto over every application the Assembly makes for a legislative order. The Assembly wants Parliament to endorse a legislative order to allow it to pass further measures to protect the Welsh Language, but it seems that the Commons will deny it that power.
Btw, Henry Tudor (Henry VII) was one-quarter Welsh by lineage, he was half-French. Wales wasn't united with England for Wales' benefit but for the crown's administrative and legal convenience.
By today Wales has been twice designated for EU Objective One funding, as one of the poorest regions in Europe, whereas the economy of independent Republic of Ireland (geographically more disadvantaged than Wales) is far stronger. It had the sense and the power to join th Euro at the right time.
Now, thanks to McBroon's mismanagement of the UK economy, we're in a right mess, probably having to enter the Eurozone at a rate which will impoverish us further, making our savings and salaries worth next to nothing in comparison to the rest of the EU.
I don't blame the Zionists, Hertzl and Weizmann for example, for their aspirations of a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
The consequences of realising those aspirations, for the world, the Middle East in general and the Palestinians in particular, have been disastrous, and there's more to come.
I hold Britain and the United States responsible for the mess created.
Israel has to bear much responsibility for the way it has behaved since 1948, but it couldn't have done what it did, or is doing, without outright US economic and military support. The F16 jets, the drones, and the helicopter gunships which are pounding Gaza, killing civilians, are supplied or paid for with US tax dollars.
The truck shown being blown up by an Israeli missile (seen on BBC News), which they claimed was being loaded with rockets, turned out to be gas canisters. Investigators belonging to B'Tselem (the Israeli Organisation for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories) who examined the scene, have confirmed that there was no evidence of there having been rockets on the truck, and that innocent civilians were killed. Had they been rockets, the truck would have been destroyed entirely by the secondary blast, in any case. Several members of the truck owner's family, including his son and a 14 year-old boy were killed.
The UN has been debating the Gaza crisis today and resolutions tabled by Libya and others. It was the UK and the US which barred the Libyan resolution from progressing, because it contained a condemnation of Israel's actions as disporportionate. The US has vetoed every such resolution since Bush entered the WH.
"This coming year won't be easy, but I am determined that this government will be the rock of stability and fairness on which the British people can depend," he said.
Code for: You guys will become ever more dependent on the largesse we will dispense, by taking your money away and borrowing your children's future.
"The scale of the challenges we face is matched by the strength of my optimism that the British people can and will rise to meet them.
Code for: I was an optimist while Chancellor and don't think I should part with rose-tinted specs for a while yet. Always believed you "citizens" (actually subjects) would be able to cough up enough to allow me to waste billions.
"Because we're not a do nothing people and we've always risen to every challenge, we can meet the security challenge, the environmental challenge and the enormous economic challenge."
Code for: Look at all the stuff I'm doing. The Tories or Lib Dems aren't doing it. So they are "do-nothing" parties. Guess what? They can't do anything. They don't control the levers of power. We have never been a "do nothing" people. Just wish our government would do a lot less. That would save a heck of a lot of disposable income. Like the stupid QinetiC deal for an outside agency to train the military. Why, for goodness sake, would anyone believe that a research company could train military people better than a military training establishment?
"Today the issues may be different, more complex, more global..."
This guy is supposed to be an historian. Did he never work out that World War II was called that because it was a global conflict? The current crisis has a simple - not complex - background. Bankers screwed up. And they were never challenged properly by the regulatory agencies.
Brown, Darling, BoE, the FSA etc did not expect the problem. No wonder.
Nobody bothered to ask whether the bits of paper saying "I'm worth a billion" actually meant or were worth anything. Nobody in government seemed a jot concerned about where tax revenue came from (genuine source) - just that the more they could take, the more they could spend and call "investment".
I just hate the mindset. You know: we're all responsible for this. Why? If you spend what you've got, only borrow what you can really afford to pay back even if things go awry, how are you responsible for government or bankers financial idiocies? If you respect other people and do no harm, then why should you be or feel responsible for some idiot killing someone else?
Problem is when governments get too involved in things that should be managed at a people/community level. Was a time when kids would get together to play soccer anywhere. Why on earth does it make sense for a council to hire someone to encourage street football? (OK. Found that on Daily Mail website. Originally saw it advertised on Guardian pages...)
"The PM said the task for 2009 is to "build tomorrow", with jobs for the digital age and the green agenda, new transport and communications infrastructure and enhanced skills."
Goodness help us all. If Brown's going to pour more money into IT projects, we'll all be told to be at home at a given time to have the chips implanted. And they probably have to be replaced within a couple of months because they didn't quite work first-time-around...
Jobs provided by whom? By government? At a cost to which part of the economy, pray? Enhanced skills? Dear Lord, one in five kids can't even claim to be literate or numerate. How can we make any progress with an economically illiterate administration in charge?
I hadn't realised that ostriches were natives of Fife.
The difference is we remained here, subjugated, exploited etc, and haven't therefore returned to take the land from others.
Then who dispossessed the original inhabitants of New South Wales? ;-)
Also
"It was the UK and the US which barred the Libyan resolution from progressing, because it contained a condemnation of Israel's actions as disporportionate."
Actually, the US and the UK barred the Libyan and (Egyptian) resolution because it failed to call upon Hamas to cease it rocket attacks on Israel. Do check your facts.
Max, with regard to the Jewish immigrants here, I can say it did cause concern but nothing like what is happening now. Shall I tell you why, (you should already know but here goes anyway): The Jewish who fled nazi Germany were relieved and grateful to be able to settle here. Many of them have told me they all agreed between themselves that they would be respectful to their host country, abide by its laws and keep its values and traditions. They usually have kept their homes and families respectable and whilst keeping close in their communities have also integrated into Britain in an admirable way.
The village of Radlett in Herts. is a case in point. They have kept it English, speak English properly (as well as Hebrew) and still go to synagogue (not sure of spelling!). Usually marry "in" as opposed to other religions etc. BUT they are mostly an asset to this country not a hindrance.
They are criticised and disliked for being pushy sometimes but that is not a huge issue compared with the present flood of other immigrants, their knife crime, anti social habits, hatred of the west etc.
Some of this present flood have spoilt it for those coming in with skills, manners, etc. as they are all tarred with the same brush.
We all know some who are great - we have a wonderful muslim dentist and a wonderful zoroastrian aromatherapist for our disabled son, but they are appalled at the lack of control of the others coming in. In fact they say "you only have yourselves to blame". There you have it. But I blame Brown/Blair.
Read lots of history. Don't like many things that happened. Just get on with it.
I don't really give a stuff if the Romans, Vikings, whoever did bad stuff a long time ago. I can't change it. Some things turn out well. The bad bits we all have to fight to turn towards a better situation.
Bit late to undo the selling of slaves by black Africans to the wicked English. (That doesn't get taught, does it?) Did anyone really belive that English/Welsh/Scots/ French/Spanish - whoever - convinced those people they were just being offered a cruise? Or that they could actually grab a few million folk after stepping off a boat into a hostile geographical environment?
I quite like a political environment within which some account is taken of "local" issues. That's always easier when there are some reasonably accepted common heritage.
The USA celebrates Independence Day. In fact only a thin sliver of the Atlantic coastline was "British". So the guys in most of the USA were only "independent" later, either by purchase (Louisianna - actually a huge swathe of mid-America, and Alaska) or conquest (most of the South-West and far West wrested from Mexico).
I don't like the ME situation. You seem to feel a connection between the down-trodden Welsh and the Palestinians. Just suppose the English/Normans had pushed the Welsh into the sea, or just eliminated the majority. They could have done. Wouldn't you have felt a tug to re-create a Welsh homeland? Doesn't that echo a tiny bit with the situation of a Jewish people who got a lot of bad press centuries ago?
Doesn't mean they should oppress others. I'd agree on that. And fully accept that their power is US supported.
So who should swallow the land? Jordan? Syria? Egypt? There's pretty slim hope that any worthwhile "independence" would happen. It could be a "simple" political hegemony, with a token government.
You want a Free Wales. Fine by me. Except I wouldn't want to pay for you via the EU.
England has long been a successful melting pot of many nations - and even religions - so long as these nations and religions were willing to integrate.
I believe that Jews have been in England ever since Cromwell allowed them back in. There were Jews in England before then, but after a series of anti-semitic massacres at York and elsewhere, Edward I expelled them. (BTW Edward I also 'hammered' the Scots and built castles all over Wales to keep the Welsh down, though as the ardent nationalism of bryn41 above proves, he didn't do a thorough job).
The main reason why Jews have integrated well (for the most part - I except the ultra-orthodox who are considered 'weird' even by the majority of Israelis) in Britain, is because Judaism is not - unlike Islam - a prosetylising religion. It accepts few converts (and makes it quite difficult even for those determined to convert).
The second reason is because many Jews see religion and religious identity as separate to secular matters such as State and temporal rule (law of the land). As such they were influential in, and benefited from, European enlightenment.
This separation of Church and state is also long accepted in Christianity. Islam, however, does not recognise any separation between divine and temporal law.
Welcome 2009 - although the latest news is NOT good. Heard that Gordon's goons have instituted new laws. The Isle of Man is now to be known as the Isle of Person (Harman wanted Isle of Woman). The Isle of Wight is to be The Isle of Multicolour.
"You want a Free Wales. Fine by me. Except I wouldn't want to pay for you via the EU."
You won't be paying for anything through the EU or anything else, because McBroon has bankrupted the UK. And who wants the British pound anyway? The rest of the world doesn't want to know.
If Wales is doing so well because of English largesse, why is Wales relatively so poor? We can do without that kind of assistance. Its soooo patronising.
Perhaps we should charge you the economic price for the water you drink, or the green energy produced by the disproportionate number of massive wind turbines the UK government is planting all over Wales.
The UK's indebtedness is already legendary. And that's despite massive oil revenues over 40 years which should have belonged to the Scots by right.
England hasn't got a very good economic record. Its greatest success has been in finance, the City of London, which grew fat on lending, borrowing, dealing, and insuring funds, commodities and property which it didn't own or produce - a bloated bubble which has burst. It created a few thousand fat cats who got paid huge bonuses for what turned out to be legalised theft - for lack of regulation by the useless and/or corrupt politicians spawned by the unwritten constitution of this pathetic nation state, which is long past its sell-by date.
I hope the Scots get their independence soon, and will pave the way for the rest of us to follow.
#410 .....worse to come: Manchester United is to be Personchester United, and even the novel "Mansfield House" is to be renamed "Personsfield House". I wonder if the Man from the Manse will then be called The Person from the Personse!
What about PC theatrical plays? A Person For All Seasons The Person From The Personcha Two Gentlepersons From Verona The Person Who Would Be King Person and Superperson
Then famous songs? Old Person River The Person I Love My Old Person's a Dustperson
At 5:58pm on 01 Jan 2009, phoenixarisenq wrote: 414. runskippyrun wrote:
Agree, there would be a riot.
What about PC theatrical plays? A Person For All Seasons The Person From The Personcha Two Gentlepersons From Verona The Person Who Would Be King Person and Superperson
===
Sorry, phoenixarisenq, but expect a call from (make a) Quick, Bob and his mates at the Met;
The Person Who Would Be King is wrong on so many counts, elitist, monarchist, aspirationalist, and worst of all, SEXIST!
We expect, nay demand, an immediate retraction and apology.
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
Give Gordon, Peter & Alistair my regards during your break.
Complain about this comment
See you in the pub.
Complain about this comment
have a good one young Nick. Hope you come back revitalised and with your keen journalistic instinct honed and ready to dig out information.
Maybe start off with that Mandelson and Oleg EU tariff debacle...
Bonne Noel!
Complain about this comment
Have a good time off and I hope you get to take your Labour colour specs off for when you come back.
Complain about this comment
Merry Christmas Nick
Strange the last blog submitted is about our great leader - nothing much else has happened other than the total politicisation of the police and a quick retraction - correctly.
Ho ho ho!
Complain about this comment
Happy Christmas, Nick, and everyone else on this blog.
Complain about this comment
I always thought Christmas was on 25 December. So why are people taking the opportunity to goof off for two weeks?
Don't they know there's a recession (slump) on?
Will their jobs be there for when they come back? If they can disappear for two weeks without affecting the operation then what value do they add during the other fifty weeks? Perhaps the prevailing view is they can just get a hand out from the taxpayer.
Do I hear questions in The House?
Fat chance.
Complain about this comment
Happy and Holy Christmas and a Happy and Healthy (if not prosperous:()2009.
Complain about this comment
Happy Christmas everyone..
Very disapointed that there is no other political news...been pretty quiet - lead up to Christmas and we only get Praise the Gord - how fitting!
Let's see January - maybe something on Oleg, a Yacht and someone called Mandy then...
No, ok more of the same then.
Complain about this comment
Happy Christmas Nick.
Here's hoping the New Year brings you happiness
...and a desire to report the facts, rather than the message.
Complain about this comment
Happy Christmas Nick. Regards to your family and your Westminister colleagues
Complain about this comment
Merry Christmas to all - whatever your political persuasion!!
I wish you all a good festive holiday and the best for 2009 (whatever it brings)
Cheers!
Complain about this comment
Yes, it would be a good idea to blog off now as we have to negotiate something much, much trickier than professional politics.
Which is ... family politics at Christmas ... possibly the most ferocious bear-pit of all.
Felix dies Nativitatis!
Complain about this comment
Nick, It seems that times have changed!
I seem to recall that journalists used to be paid by the word...
It's a little odd that you couldn't post something to entice folk to natter over the next week or so. Haven't there been any issues cropping up recently?
The Bank of England admits it underestimated the impact of the "credit-based-boom". That has political as well as financial implications. Especially when Brown's triumvirate of BoE, Treasury and FSA quite obviously had no clear plan for handling potential problems...
Senior policeman accuses a political party of corruptly encouraging information about a (possibly non-licenced) business being run from his home... (No way I'm defending any party - but it did seem rather odd!)
Purnell signs off a document suggesting that struggling people should only have loans if they pay in excess of 20percent APR...
Guess it's nice to work for the Beeb. In lots of other organisations, if a job's needed, then it gets covered when the occupant goes on leave. (And in quite a lot, people keep in touch via the Net.)
Pity you couldn't have arranged a "Guest Host".
Anyway. Happy Christmas. And I'm sure we'll are expect a fairly hairy New Year.
Complain about this comment
Merry Christmas Everybody,
really looking forward to the early Spring election. Now that would be the best belated Christmas present of all.
The next best present, getting the MoD to lift the injunction on my son preventing his freedom to speak!
Complain about this comment
Merry Xmas Nick , is it Tony or Gordons for Dinner ?
Bye the way you never did tell us what Mandy was doing on that Yacht !
Complain about this comment
By the way.
I was struck by the vigour with which Brown and Darling attacked the banks for failing to deliver enough money to be borrowed, after the dynamic duo had injected so much into their accounts.
Until the banks said that they hadn't actually received the money... I gather that will happen in the New Year.
I thought that the banks were in trouble exactly because they were lending money they didn't actually have.
So why were Brown and Darling... Oh, forget it.
Where's Ed Balls when you really need a rediculous comment to brighten your day?
Complain about this comment
And a happy Christmas to you too Nick. I hope you manage to switch off from all this political malarkey and have some quality time with your loved ones.
And a merry Christmas to everyone else as well!
Complain about this comment
Happy Christmas, Nick. Perhaps you could spend the time considering your political affiliation. How much longer are you going to support the people who are ruining our country?
Complain about this comment
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, to Nick, the Moderators and all the bloggers!
Complain about this comment
Happy Christmas Mr Robinson.
I hope you get four Christmas presents:
1. A proper sense of balance
2. A pair of ear plugs to blot out briefs from your Socialist masters
3. A pair of clear lenses for your spectacles to replace your Socialist rose tinted ones
4. A new pencil so that you can write some good copy about Mandy and yachts and state controlled police
Amazed that you do not consider that there is any political news to report currently. Robert Peston wouldn't give in so easily.
Complain about this comment
Enjoy your break, Nick.
Merry Christmas all!
Complain about this comment
Best wishes ! Will miss you, will just have to vent my spleen on someone else till you surface.
Complain about this comment
Happy Christmas Nick and thanks to you and your colleagues for organising such an entertaining and (sometimes) contentious blog!
Enjoy your break!
Complain about this comment
No recession or politics for a whole three weeks.
Nothing to worry about then.
They've all gone away so we can all retire and dumb down into our virtual world of endless repeats on TV and video games.
No wonder so many are getting out of the country this year.
Have a Merry Christmas. I've set my alarm for January.
Complain about this comment
Nick:
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year....
To you and your family...to the moderators, and the assistants who help out; and, the other contributors of this blog..
Enjoy your vacation!
Again, Happy Holidays and Happy New Year...
Complain about this comment
A half-hearted apology from Mr Quick (Bob to his friends - Home Secretary Jacqui Smith) to the Conservative Party. Not worth a mention really. Funny that the visit of 'Bob's' men to Damian Green was though!
Merry Christmas everyone and the very best for the coming year.
Complain about this comment
Merry Christmas Nick - are you heading back to the Macc?
Also - were you twittering the above post?! It's short: you should have left something for us to all chew the fat on.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Merry Christmas and, er, not sure about the New Year
Complain about this comment
Happy Christmas, Nick.
If having been a good boy throughout the year means lots of presents, then Santa Brown should ensure you get a shedful.
Complain about this comment
So while people will worried about their jobs, bills, mortgage etc Gordon and his red army go off for a few weeks. Off on some sun kissed beach to get away from it all. My what a hard life they have.
PS
The other day when I was opening my post I had a card from my local Charnwood MP Andy Reed. Now I have never voted Labour so why did I end up with such waste paper on my door mat? Is this just a waste of MP Andy Reeds wage which goes to show they get paid to much or will it come from expences just to try and win a vote? What ever it is what a waste of time money just go on in my recyling bin.
Complain about this comment
Merry Christmas Nick, keep up the good work.
To the rest of you keep up the whinging, it is very entertaining.
"Those damn socialist Nick Robinsons,BBC,Police blah,blah,blah."
HOHOHOHO!
Complain about this comment
Bah, Humbug!
;-)
Complain about this comment
Yep, I think Nick Robinson has been a very good boy this year, and Santa Brown will empty his sack in Nicks living room.
Everyone else, keep the peace, may love cover the globe.
Complain about this comment
England has been crushed, never to rise again, and those of you there who are waking up to the fact are getting pretty cross about it, apparently. It is all the fault of that Scottish prime minister, many are saying openly. No, the other one, the superhero who thinks he is saving the planet.
Not very far into the new year the blame game, as you call it, will really get going, as the pillars of the UK economy, such as they are, come tumbling down. The political parties will be at each other's throats. Middle England will be up in arms against the Scots, who will not be long in taking umbrage, of course, and all hell will break loose, basically. But why am I telling you what you already know?
Having observed and indeed measured the quality of the existing UK overlord authorities' administrative prowess - pardon me while I snigger - and the utter economic shambles, not to put too fine a point on it, that is in the process of enveloping your state and consuming its wealth, such as it is, I have concluded, in my transcendent wisdom, that there can be little doubt that you would all be much better off under an extra-terrestrial regime, warts and all, and it would have them. This would, of course, at least have the merit of offering you the protection of a greater power, which would be, needless to say, disinterestedly benign, as all overlordships claim to be, not wishing to alienate the subject people, as you know. Even the regime that was installed in 1940 in the land called France claimed to be benign, and some people there believed it.
What, you think on reflection that you would prefer not to be ruled by unscrupulous and duplicitously self-serving extra-territorial overlords who are unaccountable to you? One can hardly blame you, as that is how the Scots seem to feel about being ruled from England, and more so now that the UK state is plunging them deeper and deeper into debt and frittering all their oil wealth away on more and more UK government profligacy to keep you chaps in the style to which you have become accustomed. The party is over, as you will discover in the new year if you do not already know it.
Season's greetings, Earthlings.
Toodloo.
Complain about this comment
Nick you will not believe this but I asked Tony McNulty a question (see "the employment minister answers your questions") and he did not answer it.
You would think if he truly believes in the goverments policies he would only be too pleased to donate his salary to charity.
If he is employed by the people of this country should he not be legally obliged to answer fully.
Complain about this comment
#37
I had a question asked of Darling by Jon Sopel on the Politics Show - along the lines of how was the government going to tighten its belt in the downturn as we were all going to have to do the same?
Funnily enough he didn't answer that either, but it was the week before the PBR. He hasn't announced anything by way of announcing any belt tightening since though so I'm guessing government may need another hole put in said belt in the new year!
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
You will miss us! Whatever you do don't get blogged down?
Complain about this comment
Well, Mr. Robinson, it would be churlish of me not to add seasonal greetings to you.
For the new year, will you please explain why, this now elongated silence from 6pm 19.12.08., until goodness knows when next year has happened?
You had much to say about the Damian Green affair and other Tory party members, mostly derogatory. Your comments relating to the Government were mostly complimentary, in a biased way.
No-one should be able to 'Draw a line under', then 'Learn lessons from' and then 'Move forward' as happens so frequently.
The Asst. Comm QUICK affair was amazing, in what was said and refuted so quickly. Surely you had a view on this? If not, why not?
Complain about this comment
Chrimbo AGAIN?
One wonders what MIRACLES our
NEW MESSIAH will claim to have
done in the coming weeks??
BROWN OUT!
Complain about this comment
I think there will be much more to report on next year and it is a shame you have closed down for the new year.
Like Post 41 I too wonder why no comment re ACC Quick? Surely a dead man walking now!
The Met Police led by Sir Ian Blair and including Mr Quick seem so politicised now and all very pro new labour.
I fear that 2008 will be noted as the year that the general public lost faith in the Police force.
The De Menezes jury verdict on the management of the Met Police and its officers actions says so much.
Complain about this comment
Hope you find time to reflect on why so many posts are critical of your political neutrality and objectivity; or perhaps you can't be bothered, your job clearly depends on you keeping your nose clean with Brown, Mandelson et al.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
as you seem to have left the blog with nothing for us to comment on then may I contribute to the filling of the void, that is if the wonderful moderators will let me.
I wonder why not more has been made that Mr de Menezes was shot and killed by policemen who used what are called dum-dum bullets.
Now my understanding is that dum-dum bullets were actually illegal. So, could somebody explain why such bullets were used, who authorised their use, and why nobody has faced prosecution for the use of illegal armaments, and finally are they now removed and destroyed from all operational use.
Merry Christmas, and a Happy and Prosperous New Year to everybody.
Complain about this comment
britom
Why so bitter?
It's the season of goodwill.
Say something nice.
See you all in the new year and thanks for the laughs
;)
Complain about this comment
In his interview, Mr Blanchard said: "Temporarily cutting VAT, a measure that was adopted in Great Britain, does not seem to me to be a good idea - 2% less is not perceived by consumers as a real incentive to spend."
Olivier Blanchard, IMF chief economist
In contrast, he said a French plan aimed at encouraging consumers to buy cars was a good idea.
Nick,
luckily you had already closed your shop when this statement came out. It would have been very challenging to report it in a positive light :-)
Season's greetings, anyway, and look forward to an eventful 2009.
P.S. I can already imagine CEH spending Xmas digging in his library trying to find an answer to the above statement
Complain about this comment
39. Possibly. What about Baron von Quietzapple? He was one of those too.
Tax payers money - disgraceful!
Complain about this comment
37. Tadcaster Dave.
You are lucky.
I asked Tony McNulty a question to his face in the Harrow Council Chamber. His response was viscious and extremely uncharitable.
He was not a nice man at all but there again I suppose when he's on tv he has to behave himself.
Complain about this comment
#45
Who cares? Wrong time wrong place.
Complain about this comment
Nick
Have a great Christmas and a safe one. On the latter point, see our tax pounds - have a look at the item on the BBC news website -
"Families warned of gravy dangers".
Ministers are warning us of the perils of exploding gravy, fat spilled on the cook trying to grapple with a big turkey and nasty cuts when chopping piles of vegetables. Not to mention tipsy guests crashing to the floor when they miss their seat at the dinner table". people cutting themselves with knives in the rush to open presents.
Make sure you pick up one of the 150,000 leaflets they have issued or you might not make it through the festivities.
Complain about this comment
34
A Merry Christmas to you "Charles" Looking forward to any future Entertainment software you develop.
Complain about this comment
Reply to 49.
McNulty seems to be the new Prescott but a bit nastier. Maybe this is the level required for the Brown Terror.
I think he was on Newsnight recently where he did not come over as being very bright. He is probably in Mandelson's inner circle along with many others.
Complain about this comment
"Merry christmas everyone!"
Remeber dutch courage is not the real thing!
Complain about this comment
#50
Wrong!!!!!
It is because there is no wrong time or place to keep reminding people of what is being done in our name.
Let me also take this opportunity to remind people that we are soon remembering the birth of the son of God. So, can we see how little has changed since his last visit. We still kill fellow human beings in greater numbers, and a lot of it seems to be still linked to religion. Great. can't wait for Easter when we remember that the same son of God actually died on the cross, for what? Yes, our sins.
Anybody want to remind me of why we went to war in Iraq? Sorry, wrong time and place. Or should I also ask to be reminded of when exactly Tony Blair converted to catholicism, oh that's right he didn't want any palavar.
So, I won't mention dum-dum bullets for a while, like in the new year, any ideas as to when it may be appropriate.
Complain about this comment
wishing you all a happy christmas and a clear thinking progressive new year xxx
Complain about this comment
Wishing you all a merry Xmas, it's been fun jousting with you Tories and even more fun agreeing with my labour friends, we may be red or we may be blue and whatever colour liberals are under but we thankfully are still one nation, so good luck to you all and your families have a great Xmas and a happy new year.
Complain about this comment
A special merry Xmas and happy new year to my old friend Phoenixarisonq where ever he is, keep your powder dry old son.
Hope to hear from you in the new year.
Complain about this comment
51. Only jocking
Only jocking, as far as those kill-joys go, let them get stuffed with lots of tasty food. Come the new year, there may not be so much of it around.
Wishing everybody, even the moderators , a happy Xmas and lots of fun under the mistletoe!
Complain about this comment
No16 elrond.
Has it it ever occurred to you, and other inquisitors, that Nick may not know what was discussed on the yacht.
Could I suggest that you write directly to the Minister for an explanation. You may be very pleasantly surprised at the reply. Keep up the superb balanced reporting in the New Year Nick, the BBC is still the best broadcasting organisation in the world.
Complain about this comment
#55
You are wrong, De Menezes was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Jesus was also in the wrong place at the wrong time if you believe in the STORY. And the reason De Menezes was killed was because of religion. A religion trying to forced on the western world by terror. Our police were trying to stop bombers killing.
I too cannot wait for Easter as it will be holiday time aslong as we all have a job.
Complain about this comment
58 phoenixarisenq
Many thanks for your good wishes which are heartily given in return. I missed our debates whilst I was on holiday and hope you are well and preparing to return to the trenches after this seasonal truce!
Complain about this comment
58 grandantidote
Sorry, mate, meant to write your name. Seems like I've had a jar a little early!
Complain about this comment
Dear Nick,
Have a great winterval and happy festive drinkings.
Xxxx
ps
What boat party are you going to?
Complain about this comment
54 derekbarker
Special greetings to you and yours.
Hope the lads have a great time over the Christmas period.
And I hope that C_E_H gets some of that innovative stuff to market!
Complain about this comment
It does seem a little odd that the IMF considers a reduction in VAT seems unlikely to deliver much benefit.
Or not.
There may be some corporate benefits in the VAT adjustment. But if government says that taking 4 pounds off a two hundred pound item is going to make a difference to people, they just don't get it. If you can't find something marked down by 10 - 40 percent, you just need to move to another shop...
I'd have thought that re-establishing the 10p tax-band - targeted at those on lower income - would have put more spendng money back into the market.
We know the government could introduce a "targeted" tax system, as mentioned in Darling's PBR:
"This will mean that where an individual’s income is below the £100,000 income limit, they will continue to be entitled to the (personal) full allowance.
- Where an individual’s income is above the income limit of £100,000,the allowance will be reduced by £1 for every £2 above the income limit up to a maximum of one half of the basic personal allowance.
- Where an individual’s gross income is above a second income limit of £140,000, the amount of their allowance will be further reduced by £1 for every £2 above the income limit up to a maximum of the full amount of the basic personal allowance."
From the HMRC web-site.
So why couldn't they simply say that where income was below GBP N,000 people could still receive a 10p tax band?
It would be technically simple. (Especially compared to the sliding scale stuff for the higher paid!) But it would have left Brown looking pretty stupid.
Which choice would have done more good for the poorer?
No wonder politicians get a bad press!!!
No wonder so many people seem to feel that Brown was no economist and seems more intent on personal aggrandisement than delivering to the people he claims to support.
We need a bit more Balls to make it really funny!
Complain about this comment
#65
Fairlyopenmind.
Slainte Mhath my friend, peace and good will
to you and your family.
Is there for honest poverty
That hings his head, an a' that
The coward slave we pass him-by
We dare be poor for a' that
For a' that an a' that
Our toils obscure, an a' that
The rank is but the guineas's stamp
The man's the gowd for a' that.
Complain about this comment
Happy Christmas Nick
I am just amazed that there is so little going on in the UK just now that Parliament is going into recess for so long. Shouldn't the government be held to account.
Anyone else notice how Gordon Brown tries to be away on Wednesdays?
Complain about this comment
#61
Nick,
this is where I have a problem with the spirit of Christmas. 'Our police were trying to stop bombers killing'.
Now I have to ask have people been reading the transcripts of the inquiry into the death of Mr de Menezes.
In my own considered opinion, for what it is worth, I have to say that I might agree with the theory that he was killed because of religion. However, whose religion are we really talking about. Consider how many innocent people have been shot and killed in this country, because they have been a perceived threat, since the death of de Menezes.
Gordon Brown, our great protector, has told us that the threat comes from Pakistan, and Afghanistan. He recently said that or am I wrong. So, could it possibly be de Menezes was shot and killed, using dum-dum bullets because he did not look like he was from either country. I believe that he died as an example to others, to show that our police will show no mercy, that they will shoot without warning, and that nobody will be held to be responsible. It will be down to the fog of war. Sometimes I am ashamed of what we allow in this country.
Complain about this comment
Yes, thank you Nick.
Merry Christmas everybody, whatever your political allegiances...
There's one final carol, I promise, before the big day itself...
We three Kings of Parliament are,
One in the commons, one in the bar,
Mass debating,
Patiently waiting,
Election day is still afar...
You know, I really do miss all the politicking over Christmas. The BBC news just isn't the same, with all the stories that wouldn't stand a chance of making the headlines during the rest of year...
Complain about this comment
#60 If he doesnt know, why not ? Did he attempt to find out? According to you all it would need for an explanation would be a letter to "The minister". Was such a letter sent by any of our so called impartial journalists ? If so what was the reply ? Why the silence on this issue when so much was made about Osborne ? All we are looking for is balanced reporting !
Any way Merry Xmas and to paraphrase Greg Lake
" Hallelujah , Noel whether Heaven or Hell, the Politicians we get we deserve "
Complain about this comment
Happy Christmas to the moderators.
Complain about this comment
All the best Nick.
Complain about this comment
Happy Christmas to all.... except No10.. Humbug to you lot.
Complain about this comment
May I wish all bloggers to this site,political friend and foe the compliments of the season.
We must never forget,irrespective of our views,that the most important aspect of our political landscape is the right of people to democratically wespouse their views....we might not like everything we see on these nblogs,it is vitally important however,that assuming they are not scurrilous,fraudulent or libelous that we continue to be able to debate in the way that we do...
As for 2009 - it promises to be a momentuous year - and I have no doubt there will be many many twists and turns,peaks and troughs,scandals and exclusives before its end......
who knows we may even have a full-time Political Opposition Party....LOL...
tata for now...(excuse the pun)
Complain about this comment
67 derekbarker
Slainte Mhath my friend, peace and good will to you and your family.
I must admit I am a little bit surprised at your choice of lyrics?
Complain about this comment
Bye Nick.
Your farewell message is reciprocated.
I detect from its attribution ("my readers") that you regard your column as a one-way medium - you pass on to us, your readers, after adding the merest personal slant, the lines handed down to a lobby correspondent. For which we must be truly grateful.
The comments and feedback are the ranting of mere mortals (with the occasional party stooges), not fit to soil the hem of your raincoat.
Strange isn't it that the RSPB (for instance) has more members than all our major and minor political parties combined. The esteem which our politicians hold themselves within the Westminster Village is not replicated in the small portion of the UK that exists without.
Thankfully government does not start and end with our Mother of Parliaments.
"For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this."
So at this time of year:
"Glory to God in the heavenly heights,
Peace to all men and women on earth who please him"
Complain about this comment
Nick,
let me give a bit of advice. Take a great interest into what is happening in Greece with the students. I think that it will be student revolution which will be the big story of 2009. The left is on the rise, they have been busy these last few years, they have not gone away. They watched and learnt, the troops will soon have to come back from Iarq and Afghanistan because they will be needed to keep control on our streets, let alone in occpied territories.
Complain about this comment
Happy Christmas Nick,
Hope you enjoy the Labour christmas party to which you are no doubt invited.
Complain about this comment
I commented earlier about the apparent inactivity of our Foreign & Colonial Secretary and erstwhile leadership challenger (denied) to engage with South Africa to confront the problem that is Robert Mugabe.
Well it appears that he has now had a letter published in the Times, in which he calls Mugabe a "stain on Zimbabwe".
A lion has roared, who will not be afraid?
My sympathies and apologies to everyone in Zimbabwe at Christmas.
Complain about this comment
It wasn't my intention to post anything here since, after all, it's the season of good will.
However, by chance a letter from my pension fund administrator arrived a few minutes ago. One third fall in value since 12 months ago. Thanks Gordon! 5 billion pounds taken from pension funds each year to pay for current spending so that Labour can boast how well the economy is performing.
My wife works in the public sector, but since she is paid only just above the minimum wage her pension is not going to be worth much either.
We are clearly two nations. Labour ministers and public sector fat cats who are immune from the recession; and everyone else.
Complain about this comment
78. T A Griffin (TAG)
I don't always agree with you, TAG, but I regret that not everyone has fire in their blood like you have. I don't think the British students will react to conditions here, or revolt like the Greeks. The students here have become as impotent and passive as most of their their parents. A surge of movement, even aggression when drunk, but the rest of the time indifferent, save for whinging. They have been bought by the benefits system, and now completely lack self-reliance and get up and go.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
thought that I would let your readers know what some of us are doing whilst waiting for 'the big day' to arrive.
Preparing to write an OU assignment on Animal Rights and the Great Apes Project whilst listening to 'ARC-Weld' Neil Young, 'Cortez the Killer'.
What are others doing whilst politics is hibernating. I mean only some more companies gone into liquidation, but hey Mandelson, let's put some money into a car company which contributes towards the destruction of the planet. Ah, climate change, that's for the starving masses, not drivers of gas guzzlers.
Merry Christmas!
Complain about this comment
Why Dum Dum bullets - It's an old Colonial Indian Army name for certain small arms ammunitions and which are banned within Nato military and in many countries?
Because their projectile nose has a hollow head which "mushrooms" on impact and so doesn't penetrate a body so far, but which spreads and causes much more disruptive damage.
It therefor has far greater "stopping power" when hitting a live target. Hence its use by certain police forces.
Old soldier
Complain about this comment
#84
Quite right. With its amazing stopping power that is why I think they needed to fire six into de Menezes. Now that really stopped him.
Thank you old soldier.
Complain about this comment
Just learned that the police secretly taped Damian green from the moment of his arrest until he arrived at the Police Station, without his knowledge.
"The Met said: "A tape sound recording was made of the MP's arrest and subsequent period in police charge, without his knowledge, prior to arrival at Belgravia Police station from Kent.
"This was authorised at superintendent level to provide an accurate record of anything that may have been said by officers or the MP over a period of nearly two and a half hours. "
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/3932833/Police-secretly-taped-Damian-Green-with-anti-terror-equipment.html
This sort of tactic is usually used on terrorist suspects, and begs the question as to why they felt the need to do this?
Anyway, Merry Xmas to you Nick (even though you obviously don't read your own blog!), to the moderators and to all other bloggers.
Complain about this comment
Wishing you a Merry Christmas Nick and a Happy New Year.
Complain about this comment
The vicar has just brought our turkey. We have some nuts and a tangerine.
Maybe a sugar mouse if we are lucky and some gold chocolate coins.......
Off to the Carols by Candlelight later and the whole family gathered together tomorrow, fourteen of us all along a huge refectory table. Then we will listen to Her Majesty and hope Crash didn't write her speech.
Happy and a Holy Christmas to you all - whatever the colour of your politics!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Complain about this comment
No doubt someone in the Met felt that Christmas Eve was a good day to bury the news regarding the undisclosed recording of Damien Green's arrest.
Shame it is day one of Nick's elongated Christmas break!
Complain about this comment
#83 TAG
You sound busy!
I'm still tapping away at a book I've been scratching at for a while. (It seems to have turned into a trilogy - so there's a bit of jumping about between sections, when I get irritated with a particulat patch! Not a clever way to do it, but it's a bit of fun.)
Whatever the political circumstances, it would be good if Brown has a Happy Christmas. May bring him back with a more open mind...
Complain about this comment
@84 & 85
Dum dum bullets are banned under international law - Hague Convention.
As the SAS were already involved in supervision, it is unlikely that the people who killed Menezes were police even Special Branch. Breaking the law has to be authorised at the highest level, and very few operatives have a 'licence to kill'.
Complain about this comment
@86 - Have a look at this link!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7225871.stm
I thought that under the Wilson Doctrine MP's weren't allowed to be bugged. But so what, we know we live in a Police State.
Seasons Greetings*
Happy New Year*
Bah Humbug*
(*delete as applicable)
Complain about this comment
#76
Roll-on-2010
People count: all people count,
A sense of worth' to all mankind!
A holy christmas to you Roll-on-2010; may that spirit of good will shine your way.
Complain about this comment
Hey Nick -- why not finish off the run up to Christmas with a comment about the apparent missuse of police powers when they arrested Damian Green. This should be a major headline.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7799092.stm
Once again police & Government out of control with no moral backbone.
Complain about this comment
Nick
As a well respected journalist you really need to get back to Westminster and start reporting to the British population what is going on.
We seem to have a police force that is getting out of control. Can you really afford to miss it?
I see that Deripaska seems on his uppers at the present time so I cannot see him making a takeover bid for Jaguar.
Complain about this comment
How does this government manage to get away with it. Raids on the House of Commons. MP arrested, taping etc...there must be no cover-up in the White House.
Do you know what really stinks, well to me it does, is the fact that nobody seems to be at all upset that the paid husband of Jacqui Smith writes letters to their local newspaper saying what a great Home Secretary she is.
As for Ed Balls and his wife Yvette Cooper? All I will say is housing allowances!
Finally, I also remember events in the North East with regard to corruption in the sixties and seventies. Has anything really changed, I don't know but something somewhere absolutely stinks. With every day that passes I feel more and more sickened, all of my illusions shattered, how terribly sad, I wonder how Gordon Brown can sleep at night, that son of the Manse. Shameful.
Complain about this comment
I've sent some of those nicely bound but totally blank books you can get in some bookshops as gifts to the great and good. A friend blocked some gilt titles on the spines so they will look good in the background in interviews. Here are the titles:
My Greatest Mistakes - Gordon
Modesty - Balls
Ontology (look it up) - Smith
Phillips Atlas Of The World (Our Friends edition) - Milliband minor
Debretts Charm For The Undead - Lord Mandy of Brazil
The Tory Party Manifesto 2007 (deleted), 2008 (deleted) Spring 2009 (in pencil) - Dave
Questions I Must Ask Rich Russians - George
How To Fail With Woman - Nick
What I Don't Know About The Economy - Vince
Balance - the esteemed political correspondant of the BBC
Elocution - Mr Peston
Have I forgotten anyone?
Complain about this comment
#97 yes you missed out
Integrity - Blunkett
What I did on the Yacht- Mandy
Speeches in which I have not used the phrase "Hard working families"- Brown
My life experience outwith Politics - Brown, Milliband, Balls, Cooper, etc etc
Leadership in Scottish Politics - Alexander
Taking responsibility- Martin
Solving Crime with the Met- Blair ( I )
Sincerity - Blair ( A )
Benefits to the common man of introducing the Humans Rights act into UK legislation - Blair ( C )
Public Service - Prestcot
Complain about this comment
Oh yes just to give my reading list some Balance I include
Reasons to vote conservative other than the present lot are pants - Cameron
Complain about this comment
i hope the "promoting of doom and gloom" will be STOP in 2009
happy christmas
Complain about this comment
Best of luck in the next series of Strictly Come Dancing.
Complain about this comment
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran, is a man who makes the lives of minorities in Iran a misery. He denies the right of Israel to exist, and would nuke it happily, and is also a Holocaust denier. Christians in his unhappy country have to tread very delicately, never knowing what the knock at the door in the small hours will foretell. Channel 4, in its wisdom is offering this despot as an alternative to Queen Elizabeth II on Christmas Day. If this channel is funded, even partly by public money it is a disgrace, and the characters who run it should be immediately removed. It may not be fashionable, but I raise my glass to The Queen. G-d bless her!
Complain about this comment
102
Postscript to my previous blog.
How come Channel 4 haven't invited Robert Mugabi too?
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Merry Christmas Mr Robinson!
Complain about this comment
Nick,
for those who are looking for a better 2009, then I say abandon hope.
There is going to be a massive reduction in the overall wage of the population. Why? Because the great retirement nuclear time bomb is just going to start, not only in the UK but primarily in America.
I wish Obama good luck, but I'm afraid he has been handed such a poisoned chalice! When Hoover took over in America in 1929 the Americans actually thought that he could solve the problems which had become apparent in 1928, he didn't. Everything they tried failed, and then in the October the final nail was driven into the coffin.
The money has gone, wasted, thrown away, and America still wants to fight in Iraq and Afhanistan. They are so doomed, and the trouble is we have a Prime Minister who seems to revel in misery, misery of his own making. We are going to go down with him, this is going to be a failure of Titanic proportions.
Happy New Year, welcome to my world.
Complain about this comment
TAG you could have waited at least until after the Christmas sales to remind us what 2009 is going to be like! Now you will be blamed for talking down our economy and disrupting Flash Gordon's grand plan to save the world. Shame on you!
Complain about this comment
Good morning. Now, all together, "All things bright and beautiful, all creatures great and small.....the Lord G-d made them all".
Yes. even Flash Gordon. So smile!!!!!
Complain about this comment
#107
You are of course absolutely right. The trouble is that I do see that the emperor has no clothes, hope that he is enjoying his Christmas, every waking minute being spent on saving us, yep, course I believe in the great leader.
Trouble is he still lacks any legitimacy, even Mugabe went to the polls, even though he didn't win. Brown is gutless, and I regard him as a coward, which is why he hides behind the military. Shame on him.
I want a formal Prime Ministerial statement explaining the purpose of our Afghanistan adventure. Gordon Brown is a disgrace and should explain what the point is, in absolute terms, because all I can see is wasted lives, on both sides. When one of our soldiers dies, explain how many so-called insurgents have died as well.
Complain about this comment
@ 106
mmm, about right - but in the long run it's all good - you know, omelettes, eggs, all that
Complain about this comment
Nick,
I thought you should have a read of this little article -
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Complain about this comment
Nick,
isn't it starnge. Do you think that an awful lot of the people who contribute to your blog are actually paid professionals and that they are now on holiday.
Just because it is Christmas doesn't mean that the world should stop.
It is now some months since I suggested a government of National Unity. Isn't it funny that many so-called experts are now beginning to realise that there will be one. However, maybe George Osborn will no longer be my preferred leader.
Complain about this comment
#102 phoenixarisenq:
You're a sucker for US and British propaganda.
True, Iran has its faults, and serious ones, at that, but its also one of the oldest civilised countries in the world. The US and Britain have a long way to go to catch up with it. Moreover, Ahmedinejad is democratically elected, whereas you are toasting a feudal unelected hereditary Anglo-German head of state, whose family is extremely wealthy and militaristic in outlook and association. Ahmedinejad comes from a very modest background.
I respect Channel 4's decision to air his message, although I didn't watch it. The last thing we need in the UK is more censorship. The BBC is very reluctant to allow publication of any views which question Israel's right to exist. Based on history it is more than debateable that Israel has a moral right of existence in the territory it occupies. Moreover, it is a state which is arguably racist, though claiming democratic credentials, it refuses to allow the return of refugees who fled the terrors they were subjected to in 1948 when Israel unilaterally declared itself to be a state. Its treatment of the Palestinians can only be described as atrocious, down to today, as it is bombing a defenceless and starving Gaza at this very moment.
I very much doubt if the BBC will publish this comment, even though yours is even more biased than mine.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
I have just listened to the News. It would appear that Israel is trying to make a point prior to Obama taking over as President.
There can be no justifification for their actions in terrorising the people of Gaza with an attack by the Israeli airforce, resulting in, from what I have heard the deaths of at least 120 people.
This is totally unacceptable and is taking advantage of the Christmas break by our politicians. Gordon Brown must see that there is more to being our Prime Minister than worrying about the economy. That is his problem, he is still thinking of himself in terms of being chancellor, well I have to tell him that there is more to it than money. We rae talking lives here, and he just sits back smiling like a cheshire cate because he saved the world. Well he hasn't.
Do your job Brown, or get out!
Complain about this comment
Happy Christmas, Nick, or is it? The world doesn't take a break!
One wonders where the Rt Hon David Miliband, Britain's Foreign Secretary is at this moment. Same goes for the US Secretary of State, Condoleeza Rice.
Do we hear them condemn the disproportionate attacks on the defenceless and starving inhabitants of Gaza this morning, by the Israeli air force? Are there calls for the bombing to cease, against what is the most densely populated area on earth, which has been made into the biggest concentration camp or ghetto in the world by the Israelis?
I recall that it was the same in 2006 when Israel destroyed the infrastructure of Lebanon, killing countless innocent civilians, including 1200 children, all because two Israeli soldiers had been kindapped. The right wing New Labour government of Blair and Brown was silent then, as it is now. Blair even allowed the US to transit massive bombs through UK airports to destroy targets in the Lebanon.
Over the festive period US and British forces have been targeting civilians in Afghanistan, which are being killed in increasing numbers, according to Hamid Karsai, their President. Not a very happy Christmas for them, Nick, or for the families of the marines who died, either.
Is it surprising that the British and the Americans are despised in so many parts of the world, and consequently it is much less safe for any of us. Who should we blame?
I know where I place the responsibility. Imho, it lies with the incumbents of the White House and 10 Downing Street.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
113. At 10:35am brynt41
You're a sucker for US and British propaganda
What a nasty expression to use, brynt41. With your obvious hate of the USA, I'm surprised you use a word which is popular amongst the rougher elements of that great country. I would have thought that if you wanted to insult me, you would have selected asomething from the vocabulary of the late Harold Pinter. Or is even he, too much for your obviously uneducated and uniformed mentality?
I suggest you ask my Christian Iranian friends what they think of Ahmedinejad. Coming from a "modest" family hardly guarantees goodness. Neither Hitler nor Stalin came from wealthy, aristocratic families. Concerning the bombing of Gaza, were you ever concerned about Israeli civilians being targeted by Hamas? I think you have a very limited world view, and suggest if you are interested in the Middle East, you ask why the Jews from Arab lands found a home in Israel, and why their goods, and in many cases their lives were taken by fanatical Moslem populations?
Finally, the Royal Family doesn't do any harm, far less than those who I am pretty certain you support.
I hope 2009 will bring you a little wisdom.
Complain about this comment
T A Griffin (TAG) @114
Made me roll with laughter when he wrote:
"This is totally unacceptable and is taking advantage of the Christmas break by our politicians"
Jews and Muslims are having one of their seasonal punch-ups and you think that they should really care about whether or not a bunch of British politicians are celebrating a Christian holiday?
One should also, of course, point out the fact that Brown - and the rest of his lame government - are totally irrelevant. Here is Britain nobody with any sense gives a tinker's cuss about Brown and Co. Why would foreigners - whose lives depend are on the line - even give him the time of day?
Complain about this comment
As for brynt41, TAG and others who may castigate Israel:
The Arab/Muslim world has over twenty states from the Atlantic Ocean in the west to Indonesia in the East.
Most of them are repressive, authoritarian dictatorships, one-party and/or theocratic states, or despotic monarchies. None of them believe in or exercise what we call liberal-democratic values. Women are usually de-facto second class citizens.
The Iranians may be democratic in that they overthrew the secular despotic Shah and instead voted in a repressive theocratic regime. A case of 'Out of the frying pan into the fire'?
The Palestinians have been used as a political football by their Arab 'brothers' since long before 1948 (The 'Hashemite Kingdom of Trans-Jordan' was carved out of British Mandatory Palestine some years before the creation of Israel. Jordan annexed the West Bank after the 1948-9 first Israel-Arab war). And, as was famously said, the Palestinian 'leadership' never loses an opportunity to lose an opportunity.
While from 1949 hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were rotting in refugee camps, Israel successfully absorbed greater numbers of Jewish refugees expelled from arab states such as Morocco, Iraq, Yemen, etc. All a matter of attitude and priorities.
Question: If Israel were to disappear tomorrow would all these countries suddenly become beacons of tolerance and enlightenment?
Complain about this comment
Dear Ladies and Gdntlemna,
I'll be away from the computer until tonight, so have a pleasant time. Keep the embers glowing, but don't tear each other apart!
Complain about this comment
If anyone of you has the time, or inclination, go onto Peston's blog and read 330. It's spot on.
Complain about this comment
Since abandoning his role as spin-meister in the UK, Tony Balir has supposedly been a Peace Envoy to the Middle East on behalf of lots of people.
Seems his impact there has been about as effective has his attempts to rein in Gordon Brown's determination to ignore economic fundatmentals was here.
(Although perhaps he didn't understand either role...)
Complain about this comment
She's telling porkies:
0:17 secs
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7801379.stm
Complain about this comment
Nick,
now the Israelies are more asking for a retaliation from Iran. Listen to the Israeli Foreign Minister #123. I will not sleep well tonight.
While our government sleeps serious stuff is going off, this is not acceptable. The re must be an urgent meeting of the UN Security Council. In the meantime, don't forget, DR Congo, Zimbabwe, Dafur, Chad/Cameroon, China, Afghanistan, Iraq, soon be WWIII at this rate.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
Hoping you're continuing to enjoy your break. Nothing much happening - no new polls, no major speeches, not even any letters to the Times to report.
We've got some bishops being a little too critical of Our Beloved Leader, but it's a quiet news day and surely no one takes them seriously.
Apart from that just a couple of hundred people killed in air strikes, but seeing as none of them have second homes in Westminster, so they don't really count. People are still dying of cholera in Southern Africa, but that's what they do there, isn't it?
Funny, but there seems to be a reasonable level of debate going on this blog at the moment. No accusations of bias, no one "unmasked" as being professional stooges. It's all getting too nice - and people are in danger of Getting Ideas (but the moderators will soon deal with that).
As it's so quiet why not extend your break for another couple of weeks? You can check here occasionally to see what's happen...
Ah, sorry. Yes, you'll get a call. Silly me.
"Hello Nick, we were thinking about ..... and need to gauge some reactions. Do you think you can get something on your blog, in let's say thirty minutes?"
"Of course, Peter, give me the gist of what you want to say and I'll send it out straight away".
"Thanks Nick, we'll alert our regular correspondents".
Complain about this comment
#114 R A Tiffing
You overlook that the festival of Hanukah has already started and supposedly of more relevance to the state of Israel than Christmas.
However, I would suggest that these airstrikes are timed more to coincide with the last days of a sympathetic administration in the White House, who might be more prepared to step in should there be any retaliation or reprisals.
Complain about this comment
#126
More of the poisoned chalice they are going to be handing over to Obama. This is just so sad, people apparently wanting change, well they will get change ok but it will be for the worse.
This is a slowly evolving car crash. In the meantime the death count is rising.
As for Afganistan how is it that the only soldiers on our side who get killed are the ones who are the perfect soldier, the ones with the brightest future, the ones who will be missed. How is that all of our soldiers seem so perfect. Are there no bad apples left in the army?
As for their photos, how about pictures of them standing over the dead insurgents, they must be killing some of them, or is this all one sided. When we lose one how many have they lost, are they not fighting for their freedom, after all we are the invaders. This is their country, we are the enemy, we are not the good guys, remember, we do bad things to bad people, well Harry seems to think so anyway. Is he not surprised when they do likewise.
Complain about this comment
So, in his New Year speech Gordon the Golem is going to tell us that the coming year will be a "test of character for the British". If we make it through okay, it will be due to the guidance of this latter day Messiah and if it all goes breasts up it'll be the fault of the people. They just weren't up to the challenge. It sounds a bit like Hitler blaming the Germans for defeat in World War II, so maybe that's the war time leader the Golem is sounding like?
Yes, if it all goes wrong it'll be because the British people weren't worthy of their great leader. They'd have failed him. Is it too much to hope for a shot in the Downing Street bunker?
Complain about this comment
"He is due to criticise governments leading the country through past downturns and say they blundered by cutting investment.
Mr Brown is expected to insist: "This will not happen on my watch. "
So there it is then, the current problem is nothing to do with Gordon Brown and his government. Spending out of control? Not relevant. It's all the fault of Mrs Thatcher.
Once again Mr Brown is in denial so nothing changes, the "Master of the Universe" is still on his own little planet.
Well we don't believe him. He is beginning to sound more and more like "Uncle" Bob Mugabe. Does he share the same speech-writer?
Complain about this comment
Yes, I'm like several previous posters: utterly incensed to hear today that Gordon Brown has the screaming audacity to exhort us to adopt a WWII blitz mentality in the face of an impending economic and social nightmare - of his own making!!! Who in hell does he think he is?
This guy gets more detached from reality with each passing day; he's lost the plot as far as I'm concerned. If his shower of incompetents aren't turfed from office without further ado, then our problems during 2009 will not be so much about economic challenges, but more about the consequences of dealing with very angry, disaffected citizens.
I can barely believe that Brown has the brass-necking nerve to talk such rot and expect us to rally behind him as if he's some sort of, er, saviour of the world? The man's an idiot.
Complain about this comment
There could be an interesting "achievement" for the Government during the coming couple of years.
In the depression, people in the private sector will sadly lose their jobs. Others who remain in work will see minimal wages growth - indeed may be asked to take a cut. Bonuses will be cut. People trying to enter the jobs market will be unable to do so. So average (median) income levels is likely to drop significantly.
State benefits and credits are so far expected to remain where they are.
So in the relative terms beloved of politicians (static income v dropping median), there may be more "Children dragged out of Poverty"...
Frightening thought.
Complain about this comment
World saver Brown was born in 1951 so how could he know what spirit was shown by the Brits in WW2.
The British public took on a man who was hell bent on power who would not listern to anyone apart fom himself. A man who said he would do one thing and then change his mind to please himself. A man who thought he could save, then rule the world, a man who spent millions on building a country up just to see it fall to its knees and crumble at the end and then see the public and his party followers leave him in his final days.
Hold on, who have I have writtern about, Brown or Hitler?
Complain about this comment
Nick,
can we see the Gordon Brown speech today please. It seems it is being well trailed, bit like the Queen's speech was well trailed. I don't mean her Christmas speech either, I meant the one the Queen was meant to have given to parliament.
Like others before me when will people realise just how detached Gordon Brown has become from reality. They have now taken my advice and acknowledged that there is no point in giving money to Jaguar/Land rover. How dared they even have considered it when tens of thousands of women workers in Woolworths have lost everything.
If there is one ounce of decency left in Gordon Brown then he will call an urgent general election, the man, and his government is a disaster. Please put us out of our misery.
Finally, don't get us deeper into the mire which is Afghanistan, Iraq was a disaster but this is going to be even worse.
Complain about this comment
#133 T A Griffin
I agree with you but I'm sure there were some male workers who lost their jobs at Woolworths.
Complain about this comment
133 T A Griffin
I also understand what you mean about Jaguar/Landrover but more jobs will go if they are not helped. I work at a place were we make plastic for Landrover. If Landrover go we will have more job losses because of Landrover going bust. When Woolies goes I dont think many of its workers would have brough a new Landrover. I hope ex Woolies worker would find jobs at the same pay rate else where.
I know what your going to say, where do we stop if we help everyone its a tough one. I was made redundant so I do understand what ex Woolies staff are going through.
Complain about this comment
All the best for the festive season Nick.
Hopefully this time next year we'll have seen an election, a hung parliament and a government truly of the best of talents truly dedicated to sorting the country out.
Unfortunately, I forsee more dithering prevarication and plenty of "recovery is just round the corner" messages while the country slides further into the abyss.
If I was a politician, I think the best buy of 2009 would be a tin hat in order to protect them from the angry hoardes in 2010.
Complain about this comment
Gordon's latest spiel continues with the effort to paint him as a cross between Churchill, Moses and The Good Samaritan pausing only to try to jump on the Obama bandwagon.
It is risible but, incredibly, it seems to work with much of the audience which is the UK population.
For me, with Gordon and Labour, it is not so much "Yes we can" as "Yes you did" - on gold sales, stealth taxes, private sector pensions, public sector pensions, balance of payments, collapsing pound, financial regulation regime, "no more boom and bust" profligacy, public finances, Iraq, spin, special advisers, Parliament devalued, anti-terrorism laws used to pursue MPs/octogenarian/Icelandic banks
etc etc etc.
Complain about this comment
Will this desperate bunch ever
WAKE UP SMELL THE COFFEE
AND RESIGN???????????????
Complain about this comment
I have read these comments on Brown and does anyone agree with what he has said this time?
Complain about this comment
No
Complain about this comment
139. At 1:19pm maggyisgod wrote:
I have read these comments on Brown and does anyone agree with what he has said this time?
--------------------------------------------------------
On #113, the rather crude brynt 41 accused me of being a sucker for US and British propaganda. In reply to maggyisgod, may I assure her I am not certifiable!
Have a Happy New Year and may that brown, blob of a cloud pass from the face of the sun!!!
Complain about this comment
So thanks to "authorised leaks" (as opposed to "unauthorised leaks" which precede a visit from the Met's anti-terror unit), we are all spared watching the Prime Minister grinding his jaw while he delivers his "blood, sweat and tears" New Year speech.
Amazing coincidence that he will allude to the second world war, the same allusion as made in Nick's last "proper" blog. If one didn't know any better, one might think they came from the same source...
"I believe the British people will show those who talk them down exactly what they are made of in 2009."
I hope so too. We may now have one of the weakest economies in the developed world, thanks to the present incumbent at no.10, but I hope that the British people can rid themselves of this bunch of incompetents and hold all our politicians to greater account in 2009.
Complain about this comment
# 139 maggyisgod
Not me anyway.
But I do wonder why we don't see as many emphatic posts in support of Gordon Brown as we see damning him?
Where are all the fervent Brown supporters setting out the evidence for the excellent job he's made of being Chancellor of the Exchequer and more lately First Lord of the Treasury?
Surely, those of us who feel that Brown's been a disaster for this country must have chinks in our armour somewhere? I really would like to read some clear examples of Gordon's Brown deeds that have positioned this country for a bright economic, social and political future.
Complain about this comment
#143 moraymint
I've come to bury Brown (metaphorically) not to praise him!
Complain about this comment
#143 moraymint wrote:
# 139 maggyisgod
"...... I really would like to read some clear examples of Gordon's Brown deeds that have positioned this country for a bright economic, social and political future."
In the first few years, I was quite impressed that Brown had kept a lid on public spending. (OK, he'd committed to follow Ken Clarke's budget approach, but he did so...)
He paid down a bit of National Debt.
He ignored some of the crass Balir suggestions (e.g. marching offenders to the nearest cash-point to pay fines...).
Later, he introduced the 10p tax-band.
But then...
He reverted to type.
Social consciousness and involvement was replaced by "State intervention" in the family, child care, education, etc.
He did away with the 10p tax-band. (Quite unnecessarily - he could have kept it if he'd wanted, by making it contingent on income being below a threshold).
Went on a totally unmanaged spending spree (much of which is not even recognised on the UK's balance sheet).
Ripped up any genuine regulation of financial institutions.
Believed that "spending" was equivalent to "investment". (Simple lack of any experience in management in a commercial environment. I mean, if a CEO or Finance Director justified corporate results by saying "Don't worry about return on investment, folks. Just look how much we spent this year. We MUST be doing well", he'd get pretty short shrift.)
I'm sure he has good social intentions. Just a complete lack of understanding that making money - creating wealth - is a lot harder than using legalised robbery to take money from people.
More than any Government I've survived, this lot seems to believ that "to legislate" is a functional equivalent of "to do"!
Goodness, if the progress of the UK could be measured by the rate of introduction of legislation and regulation imposed over the last decade, we would be living in the most successful economy of all time.
Surely somebody in this bunch can realise that "writing it down" doesn't do the real job?
Just goes to show that the "road to Hell is paved with good intentions".
Complain about this comment
Just a little more.
The problem is that we've bred - and "educated" -a generation that believes that "the Government" should / will provide. A bunch who just don't get it.
Don't realise that in our society, Governments don't actually have any cash to spray around, unless they've taken it from individuals.
Who don't realise that those taxes on corporations' profit actually DO make a difference to them.
After all, corporation tax is a cost-of-doing-business. So if companies pay, we - as consumers - have to pay just a bit more for every transaction the next time we buy.
I'm personally quite happy to pay tax, if the money is used well.
I see no reason to constantly jack up the rate of pay for "executives" in central / local government or QANGOs.
I'd like to see some published figures to support Darling's claim that, over the years, billions of "efficiency savings" have been made.
In commercial life, a saving means you don't need as much intake/outgoings for a while. So why do (or at least did) tax takings have to constantly rise?
The man's an economic buffoon.
Save the world's banks? Well thanks. By stuffing up everyone except those in government-supported work?
Well, I don't really care too much about banks I can't control.
But if the FSA (Brown's creation) had worked at even 80 percent efficiency, many UK banks would never have been allowed to get into the mess they are in.
Northern (Labour heartland) Rock had a crass business model. The FSA was aware of it, but hey, it's a long way from London and in LabourLand, so we shouldn't really care too much about that...
So we're seeing a sharp downturn in private sector income. OK. Let's see Brown negociate a 5 percent drop in public sector pay costs. That could be by simply reducing overall numbers or by actual pay-cuts. (Or by making people pay more for pensions...)
I've nothing against public workers. Where they do things that are essential. Just think that there are too many people employed to do stuff that is only justified by a splurge of legislation that is unnecessary, unproductive and unwanted.
(And sadly, unchallenged in Parliament, as the flow of documents means that nobody actually understands exactly what has been introduced. I still believe that NO MP should be permitted to vote or nod throug any piece of legislation, without having to sign an affidavit that he/she has read the detail, understands it and has considered the consequences. On pain of perjury, if said MP can't explain any random 10 of the 1500 to 1800 regulations that pour forth every year. As I've said many times, that would slow the buggers down...)
Complain about this comment
Nick,
I have been made redundant in the past and I know that it is not a very nice experience. In fact it happened to me three days after I was married, so that really messed up my plans. Did I see it coming, yes, and do you know what one of the directors actually asked me would I mind delaying my marriage so that I could train somebody to do my job. we had just been merged so there were two people for one job and I was the higher paid.
As for Jaguar/Land Rover, there must be no bail out by the British taxpayer. Another firm gone, Adams, this time with more jobs at risk. The total weakness of the British economy is being exposed for what it is, a complete and total disaster. In the meantime look at the price of oil, heating bills must come down, all the companies which put up their prices because of the increases in oil prices must also bring down their prices. In the meantime the spivs, known as the labour government, want to fight them on the beaches, etc...
Gordon Brown must, with no prevarication tell Israel to stop the killing in Gaza, he is the Prime Minister, prove it, get out of the kitchen and tell Israel to stop, stop now! I am so ashamed to have call the awful man my Prime Minister, he's nothing but a gutless sham of a man. Get out now, and get our soldiers out of Iraq and Afghanistan.
Complain about this comment
So ISRAEL has turned Gaza into the
WARSAW GHETTO.
BEARING IN MIND THE DREADFUL DEEDS
UNDER THE NAZI REGIME.
THIS MAKES ISRAELS BEHAVIOUR THE MOST
DISGUSTING ACT IN RECENT TIMES.
So we have a REPEAT OF 2006 a few quiet
unheard words from the UK & USA.
Complain about this comment
BROWNS LATEST MISSIVE IS AN INSULT
TO CHURCHILL AND ALL THOSE THAT
LOST THEIR LIVES/SUFFERED IN THE
SECOND WORLD WAR.
CHURCHILL MUST BE TURNING IN HIS
GRAVE WITH DISGUST.
Complain about this comment
alexandercurzon @148
Your comparison is not only wholly wrong but odious.
Any attempt at equivalence of the actions and intent of the Israelis with that of the Nazi Germany prior and during WW2 demonstrates both a stunning lack of historical knowledge combined with appalling moral bankruptcy.
Complain about this comment
#147 TAG
I am sure your suggestion sends terror into that brave little country Israel. Not enough the Iranians and all the fanatical arab states. You, an English gentleman wish to send that ultimate weapon in, Gordon Brown! Noooooo!
Complain about this comment
# 145 fairlyopenmind
Yup. Indeed, it is quite staggering the speed with which our political infrastructure, economic positioning in the world and general administrative competence has collapsed under this Labour government. Just amazing.
It was of course initially conceived and led by Blair and his dodgy coterie of spin doctors: they set about trivialising the work of governing the UK and treating it as one big celebrity-style marketing campaign - the aim of which was always simply to secure power and hold on to it as an end in itself.
There was never any question of properly leading the country to a better way of life - "a good life" for the good people of the UK. The idea was to get in to power, hold on to it, indulge the Party, use patronage to strengthen the political grip, grow the client state and so make the process of governing become one huge exercise in feeding the beast.
Now the beast has become a monster and we're all about to be dragged down as the monster collapses, like it was always destined to do, of course. Pity the Tory Party has been invisible throughout this era.
Complain about this comment
Recession 'a test of character'
Gordon Brown is confident about his leadership in 2009
The recession is a test of character the British people must pass, Gordon Brown is set to say.
In next week's New Year message, the prime minister is expected to urge the public to "display the same spirit" as their predecessors did in World War II.
He will also describe US president-elect Barack Obama as a "catalyst" for tackling global issues.
And Mr Brown will demand that the public work together in an effort to build a "better tomorrow".
Britain's way
Mr Brown will call on Britain to "rise to the challenge" of the economic crisis.
But he will highlight his confidence in the future of the country, saying: "Today the issues may be different, more complex, more global.
"And yet the qualities we need to meet them the British people have demonstrated in abundance before.
"So that we will eventually look back on the winter of 2008 as another great challenge that was thrown Britain's way, and that Britain met.
"Because we had the right values, the right policies, the right character to meet it."
He is expected to proclaim that Britain is not "broken" but the "best country in the world" and say: "I believe the British people will show those who talk them down exactly what they are made of in 2009 - as we build tomorrow today."
Please understand is an extract from the comment which the Great Leader will give as part of speech to the country to celebrate the New Year.
What an absolute load of tosh.
What is the point in saying I will give a speech next week, but here are extracts from it. What sort of idiot is this man?
It is bizarre, it is beyond parody, it is pathetic.
Complain about this comment
Curiously, Gordon the Golem is unable to articulate what these "qualities" the British people "possess in abundance" are. Probably because he has no flaming idea. It's just meaningless platitudes.
But isn't it strictly similar to the following:
"The year 1944 will make tough and severe demands of all Germans. The course of the war, in all its enormity, will reach its critical point during this year. We are fully confident that we will successfully surmount it."
Yes, the only "war time" leader Brown (or should we say "Braun") is sounding like is Herr Hitler.
Complain about this comment
# 153 TAG
Standard stuff for a spin-obsessed political party. They'll test reaction to the trailer - see how the media reacts - and then adjust the pitch, tone and targeted coverage accordingly. If the media reaction is favourable they'll go for it; if reaction is adverse then the whole thing will be played down. We've seen it all before.
It's called government-by-cynicism and is the only style of government this shower knows. Treat us all as idiots and role play to the gallery. Seems to have worked for Labour thus far given the number of people that still think Gordon and his team are just the ticket for saving the UK from Armageddon (brought to us courtesy of, er, Gordon and his team ...).
Complain about this comment
You only have to look a pension provision to see the cowardice at the heart of the Golem. Before the Golem most corporate pension schemes were in rude health, with a surplus due to diligence on the part of the trustees (with the notable exception of the Labour supporting Robert Maxwell, of course), while successive governments ignored the coming crisis in public sector pension provision.
So, seeing an easy target for his bullying tactics, the Golem set about raiding those successful schemes by taxing them and all but wiping them out. Meanwhile, of course, every attempt to reform public sector pensions was cowardly backed out of at the first sign of trouble, leaving the tax payer with a massive (and given the rate at which the Golem has put people of the government's payroll) and growing problem.
Complain about this comment
Foreign Secretary Alert.
Finally we have a reaction to the Israeli-Palestine crisis from our Foreign Secretary:
'Foreign Secretary David Milliband has called for an urgent ceasefire in Gaza after Israeli airstrikes left hundreds dead.
'He said a recent rise in rocket attacks against Israel and the "massive loss of life" from the Israeli bombings made it a "dangerous moment".
"'The deteriorating humanitarian situation is deeply disturbing," he added. '
Wow. Here is a man with real insight, able to sum up the gravity of the situation in a couple of short sentences.
Is anyone listening and taking notice?
Complain about this comment
Well, I doubt the Israelis are listening, since all they hear and adhere to is the voice of violence. They take advantage of collective Holocaust guilt to commit massive crimes and it's about time they were brought to heel.
Complain about this comment
I predicted the riots in the early years of the Thatcher government. I was a spotty teenager and I and those around me saw a country broken by Old Labour. The opportunities our fathers had when they were our age had vanished thanks to mismanagement.
I have an 18 year old son and I see history repeating itself for him.
We have had successive governments that cared more about political dogma and their own personal interests than they ever did about the country or its population.
This country has been stripped of its wealth and ruined by professional politicians.
Its time for the ordinary people to take their country back before the government close the door and lock it tight for good with surveillence and anti-terror legislation.
The government know and fear this. There will be pivotal, historic moments in the coming year.
The first act is for the population at large to demand a vote of no confidence in Gordon Brown and his cronies and force him to the polls.
The second is for every one of us to vote for their local independant candidate, not anyone allied to the main parties.
Complain about this comment
#148 alexandercurzon
Israel has not turned Gaza into "the Warsaw Ghetto" as you claim.
Just to bring you up to speed, as you clearly have no idea of recent history. Israel actually withdrew all its forces from Gaza in September 2005. Negotiations were already underway for a two state solution and the creation of a Palestinian State.
Power was shared in Gaza between Hamas and Fatah, but Hamas then staged a coup, forcing out elected Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. Although President Abbas was willing to negotiate with Israel, Hamas will not even recognise Israel. Hamas does not want a 'two state solution' - but only wishes to destroy Israel.
The 'brave' Hamas fighters have fired hundreds of rockets across the border into Israel, but position themselves amongst dense civilian population, effectively using their own people as human shields. To get some idea of the real intentions of Hamas, you need only look at how they teach their children to continue the hatred.
We should all be very concerned about the current bloodshed is Gaza and seek a peaceful solution, but I wonder why so many people were silent before now?
Complain about this comment
Yes, Israel withdrew it's forces from the Gaza Strip and then proceeded to effectively turn it into a massive concentration camp.
The behaviour of the Israelis is shameful.
But no doubt some poor soul filled on a guilt trip over the Holocaust (yes, it happened, but to allow Israel to play havoc using it as a shield isn't on) will report this post to the moderators.
Complain about this comment
# 161 subedeithemomgol
"effectively turn it into a massive concentration camp"
You really do yourself no favours with these inaccurate claims. If you know anything about the concentration camps of WWII, millions of people were rounded up and herded into gas chambers. The intention was mass extermination.
Today, Hamas and President Ahmadinejad of Iran seek to exterminate Israel and wipe it off the map.
The reason the wall was built was in response to continued suicide bombings. Israel has stated its desire only for a negotiated peace within secure borders, but Hamas continues to launch attacks and to derail the peace process.
Hamas does not want a 'Two-State' solution. That is the 'inconvenient truth' that you apparently choose to ignore.
I think everyone would like to see the wall removed and a peaceful relationship with all neighbouring countries. Unfortunately, at the moment, Hamas has other ideas.
Complain about this comment
But no doubt some poor soul filled on a guilt trip over the Holocaust (yes, it happened, but to allow Israel to play havoc using it as a shield isn't on) will report this post to the moderators.
It is Hamas that is using ordinary people as a shield for its rockets that is propagating this situation. If The Scots or The Welsh were firing rockets at towns near our borders wouldn't you expect The Government to take swift and decisive action?
Complain about this comment
MaxSceptic post 150
Ha Ha?
Good one? I fully understand what happened in the 1930s/1940s!
Gaza has become a Ghetto and its similar to the Warsaw ghetto.
A people being surpressed by a
overwhelming force.I often wonder when extermination wil;l get into swing.
The local Orthodox community i know rejoice at each fatality!!
If its "moral bankruptcy" to point
this out I PITY YOU?
Complain about this comment
Distant Traveller
NO IDEA??
I go to Gaza two to three times a year.
We take in Medical Aid.
I fully understand ALL the
HISTORY.
WHEN DID YOU LAST GO?
Complain about this comment
I have just been reading some comments of Brown saying the British spirit of WW2, now dont take this the wrong way (and if you do tough) but the british public in the 30's and 40's were from Britain not from all over the world.
When you have folks from all over the world who are her for what they can get out of the system and not willing to take on the our culture will that spirit that Brown hopes and needs shine through?
Complain about this comment
163. sicilian29
It is Hamas that is using ordinary people as a shield for its rockets that is propagating this situation. If The Scots or The Welsh were firing rockets at towns near our borders wouldn't you expect The Government to take swift and decisive action?
I AGREE COMPLETELY.
165. alexandercurzon
I go to Gaza two to three times a year.
AND DO YOU BRING AID AND COMFORT TO THE VICTIMS OF FANATIC TERRORISTS? E.G. THE VICTIMS AT MIKE'S BAR IN TEL AVIV? THE UK VICTIMS IN THE LONDON TERROR BOMBINGS?
Complain about this comment
Quick question:
Is this ludicrous plan to censor the internet:
1) a misguided attempt to appeal to middle england (as 42 days was)
2) trying to find another way to justify ID cards
3) the hand of mandelson/campbell focusing us non-believers on theoretical issues rather than economic woe (which rightly or wrong is going to be blamed on any current administration)
4) genuine fascism
Complain about this comment
167 phoenix.....
So youre HAPPY to see Palestinians suffer then?
MEDICAL AID?? WHAT DO YOU THINK THE RED CROSS DO?
Complain about this comment
168 tarquin
Yes you are right like the NAZI
Regime they are desperate to
silence the opposition. . .
Complain about this comment
My hopes for 2009:
1 A general election
2Conservatives sweeping to power
3Brown and Blair jailed for treason
4England to win the Ashes 5-0 (at the rate the Aussies are slipping, I reckon that one couldbe a dead cert!)
5finding ot EXACTLY how deep in the doodoo Labour has left this country
6start to repair the damage for my childrens children.
Complain about this comment
alexandercurzon @164 wrote:
"Gaza has become a Ghetto and its similar to the Warsaw ghetto.
A people being surpressed by a
overwhelming force.I often wonder when extermination wil;l get into swing."
Such hyperbolic statements only serve to prove your ignorance of history and inability to discern truth from propaganda.
You may have indeed visited Gaza, but you were obviously 'eyeless'. The only alternative explanation is that you are a willing participant in the distortion of truth and reality in support of your prejudices.
Complain about this comment
If The Israelis were bombing The Palestinians behind a shield of residential houses, schools and hospitals I would be very quick to condemn them for their actions. The fact is that they aren't but their opponents most definitely are and they are now regrettably reaping the awful consequences. It's a sad fact also that many of these human shield residents have been recruited into The Hamas ranks and must therefore expect to be treated as enemies if they step over the mark and continue to launch rocket attacks against The Israelis in their back yard. The plain fact is that these terrorists really only understand one language and it doesn't involve getting round a table to discuss their grievances. They won't be happy until Israel is totally annihilated and that just ain't going to happen.
Complain about this comment
Has anyone else noticed the almost complete lack of pro-Labour bloggers on here in the last week? You all know who the usual suspects are, but they are noticable by their absence.
Now, could it possibly be that a good number of them are paid as part of a Labour rebuttal unit and they have shut for business until the new year? Or can't receive their orders from Mr Mandelson as he is too busy enjoying the largesse with Nat Rothschild at Klosters?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mandrake/3918609/Lord-Mandelson-slopes-off-with-Nat-Rothschild.html
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
169. At 10:11am on 29 Dec 2008, alexandercurzon wrote:
167 phoenix.....
So youre HAPPY to see Palestinians suffer then?
MEDICAL AID?? WHAT DO YOU THINK THE RED CROSS DO?
I am not, unlike you, happy to see anybody suffer.
Regarding your trips to Gaza, if there is a Red Cross (arabs use Red Crescent) why are you faffing about there? Sadly, the Red Cross failed to identify the true conditions in many prison and concentration camps in World War II, and as it is composed of humanbeings, is not always completely objective in its findings.
Complain about this comment
re phoenix... and Maxsceptic
People like you through your
stupidity!! Will only encourage
me to give MORE medical aid
to the Palestinians.
Phoenix....??
For the avoidance of doubt i do not want to see people suffer.
Complain about this comment
#162 DistantTraveller wrote:
"Hamas does not want a 'Two-State' solution. That is the 'inconvenient truth' that you apparently choose to ignore."
The evidence points to Israel not wanting a two-state solution. The Israeli settlements, infrastructure and hundreds of checkpoints in the West Bank and East Jerusalem testify to that. David Ben Gurion understood the need to cleanse the territory of ancient Israel (the Old Testament Northern and Southern Kingdoms) of its indigenous (pre-Zionist era) inhabitants (Moslem and Christian) as there would never be peace for Israel while any remained.
Israel's first legislative act, after its unilateral creation in May 1948, was the Law of Return, which allowed (allows) anyone of Jewish descent from anywhere in the world, the right to Israeli citizenship and to live in Israel. Conversely, the Palestinians who fled from their own land during the war of 1948-49, after such incidents as the Deir Yassin massacre, were not allowed to return to their homeland when hostilities ended. These people became refugees in permanent camps outside of Israel, where many of them and their descendants still live today.
The Law of Return was/is essentially racist in its purpose and effect, although it uses religion as a cloak.
Britain which created the problem, as it occupied Palestine after the Great War, and obtained a Mandate from the League of Nations (a body created by Britain, the US and France) to administer Palestine after 1921. Britain then allowed and encouraged tens of thousands of European Jews to settle in Palestine, even giving them land. After WWII both Arabs and Zionists turned on the British. Typically Britain tried to wash its hands of the problem and asked the fledgling UN to sort it - another body created by the victorious Allies. The UN came up with the idea of partitioning Palestine to be put to both sides. The United States pressurised many smaller UN members to vote for the Partition Plan. Britain sat on the fence, and abstained. When the Plan was approved by the UN it was put to the Palestinians and the Zionists. Naturally, the Palestinians rejected it, because they would lose half their country. However, the Zionists unilaterally declared the State of Israel, which was immediately recognised by the US.
The UN had no power to give the land to the Zionists. It had/has no land to give to anyone. To have effect the Plan would have had to be accepted by both sides. Therefore, the creation of Israel had no legal basis in international law. Its de facto recognition and massive economic and military support by the US ensured Israel's survival to the present day. It is not a viable state without US economic aid. Since Bush came to power, the US has vetoed every UN resolution which criticised Israel.
Persecution of the Palestinians has continued in the territories Israel occupied during the 1967 War, in defiance of many UN resolutions and international law. It has allowed, even encouraged, Israelis to settle on large parts of the West Bank. Its taken control of water supplies and roads in the WB, and has built the massive Wall of Separation, much of it on Palestinian land, separating families and farmers from their land and children from their schools. It has several hundred checkpoints where Palestinians are harassed and delayed endlessly. Israel has about 10,000 Palestinian political prisoners in its jails.
Israel does not want the tiny Gaza Strip, as its not a part of their 'historic' biblical nation. Today its the most densely populated area on earth with one and a half million people defenceless people, which have no army, air force or navy. It is cut off from the rest of the world, access totally controlled by Israel. We don't get independent press/media reports from Gaza because the Israelis won't allow their correspondents or cameras in. Its population is close to starvation, and there are hardly any medical supplies. It is a ghetto. This week Israel has been using F16 aircraft (supplied by the US) to bomb its crowded streets, killing over 300 people so far.
What the Nazis did to the Jews of Europe was appalling, words fail to describe it. The world turned a blind eye to it in the 1930s and 40s.
The West has not only turned a blind eye, but has even endorsed the awful treatment meted out to a wholly innocent people who were unfortunate enough to live in a land coveted by others. Its ironic that a once persecuted minority is now the bully, backed by the world's biggest bully.
Have we not learned any lessons from history?
Complain about this comment
177 You only appear to want to see Israelis suffer.
You contradict yourself by denying medical help is needed whenever terrorists attack, since the Red Cross accepts this responsibility.
By the way. out of interest, who finances your thrice a year jaunts imto Gaza? Is it a political agenda?
Complain about this comment
brynt41 @178 asks:
"Have we not learned any lessons from history?"
For the Jews, the first and most obvious 'lesson from history' is that they need an independent state of their own in their ancestral homeland.
The second lesson is that when 'push comes to shove', present and atavistic hatreds will prevail and that they should not put their faith (or future) in the hands of the 'gentiles'.
As I have written many times before, the Arab/Muslim world has over twenty states from the Atlantic Ocean in the west to Indonesia in the East.
Most of them are repressive, authoritarian dictatorships, one-party and/or theocratic states, or despotic monarchies. None of them believe in or exercise what we call liberal-democratic values. Women are usually de-facto second class citizens.
If Israel were to disappear tomorrow would all these countries suddenly become beacons of tolerance and enlightenment?
Nobody has yet even attempted to provide an affirmative answer.
Complain about this comment
post 179 phoenix
Contradict myself by denial of help??
WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT??
I personally give the money and my trips are funded by me.
But for 2009 you have persuaded me to double the GIFT.
Complain about this comment
178 bryn
How elegantly described!
Complain about this comment
181. At 1:56pm on 29 Dec 2008, alexandercurzon wrote:
post 179 phoenix
Contradict myself by denial of help??
WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT??
I personally give the money and my trips are funded by me.
But for 2009 you have persuaded me to double the GIFT.
PLEASE DO US ALL A FAVOUR AND DOUBLE THE TIME YOU ARE AWAY. EVEN BETTER, MOVE THERE PERMANENTLY!
Complain about this comment
#178:
If the people you talk of are so innocent and defenceless why do they in spite of repeated warnings not to do so lay themselves open to retaliation by persistently firing rockets at southern Israeli towns. Surely common sense should dictate that at some point The Israelis are goung to lose their rag and take positive action to stop them.
Complain about this comment
183 phoenix
Ha Ha??
What a creep?
See you are full of a generous
spirit.
The Palestinians need all the Medical help they can get.
Obviously you are happy for them to be Exterminated?
Whether that be by bullet sickness or starvation.
Who are the New Nazi Brigade??
Complain about this comment
On the third day of attacks an estimate of 300+ killed in Gaza and reports from Israel claim the loss of 2 lives... And one of those was this morning. Such is the advanced technology on the Gaza strip.
There is information on the net, but i'm guessing this is exactly what is in line for censorship here.
http://ingaza.wordpress.com/
#157
Listening to Milliband? No. Mind you, it is fun to see what bizarre intelligence he has pieced together. And the tripe he comes out with.
One very important issue to remember with this guy...
Where was the aid for South Ossetia? Even after it turned out that they were in fact the victims of those attacks. He in my opinion is useless or he lied to the people knowingly, in the hope that the truth would not come out. For weeks the UK media reports had less information than I myself did. Foreign Office anybody? South Ossetia’s civilian population paid a very high price too. 2000 people were killed.
And last time I looked Sashkvilli was still in power. Yep, still clinging on like .guv, the rest of the shower and Mugabe amongst others.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
As an employee of the BBC you need to remember that your wages are paid by the tax payer.
Your new year resolution needs to be to stop sucking up to NuLabour and provide us taxpayer witnh a balanced position in respect to British politics and current affairs.
Perhaps you could pass on the message to your brother Andrew Marr.
Complain about this comment
BRITISH POLITICS WITHOUT THE EMPIRE : SUBSTANCE OR FARCE ?
It was not until I spent some time in the USA in 2OO8 that I really became aware of some basic differences between our concept of democracy and theirs... I had always felt uneasy about that small army of extremely serious-, disciplined and devoted looking officials, surrounding the President whenever he is announcing anything important, probably envied for by our PM when trying hard to fit in some genuine priorities against a background of non-stop and often blown-up diversions and interrruptions (leaks, donations, Yacht gate, the Speaker, disputing the Governments figures yet again this morning concerning crime, and so on..) perhaps partly hoping to gain brief periods of party political advantage, assuming voters are not sophisticated enough to distinguish major global issues from relatively minor domestic matters, though they do make the news briefly...., perhaps particularly welcomed by the media during recessions especially since any serious non-Governmental contributions are scarce.
One gathers that most Americans tend to support THEIR President WHILST he is in office...., regardless of their polititical origin rather than undermining him, accepting that a) solidarity is central in an age of terrorists and other attacks threatening their existence , i.e. the precise reason why many of their ancestors left their country, and as b) most Americans are therefore more serious about the business of running their country rather than playing party political games, they feel the President is in a better position than anyone to judge its latest state of affairs and should therefore be trusted (envied by some..) to get on with it when in office. What is unlikely to happen in the USA is that, e.g. a purely in error used word by the P.M. like during a recent debate about the global crisis would cause such boisterous hilarity,mockery and jeering by members of the opposition that the P.M. was unable to continue for several minutes and the session turned into a common farce whilst, rationally, nothing had anything to do with the very serious nature of the crisis that might effect many people in this country, i.e. nothing to laugh about.. Accidentally , shortly afterwards, Ms. May, shadow leader of the House, appeared to have said something equally silly and unintentional that went practically unnoticed because... Ms.Harman for the Government and its backbenchers quite wisely decided to act in a more responsible manner in line with the seriousness of the occasion.One lost count of the many educational and grammatical errors made by American Presidents over the years, but most mature and intelligent Americans, of course, realize it is in their own interest to support their man at the White House. Perhaps a different world indeed from Whitehall with all its secrets, hypocrisies and games, but then again, where would we be without our bloggs and its harmless fun..!
Complain about this comment
185. alexandercurzon
The Palestinians need all the Medical help they can get.
Obviously you are happy for them to be Exterminated?
Whether that be by bullet sickness or starvation.
Who are the New Nazi Brigade??
By your lexicon and range of insults it is obvious you are one very sick person. 'Exterminated', 'New Nazi Brigade'. By the same token I could refer to the New New Bin Laden Brigade.
When I asked you if you gave medical help to UK victims of terrorism, you replied on #169 MEDICAL AID?? WHAT DO YOU THINK THE RED CROSS DO? This caused you confusion as can be seen in #181.
Actually, you are a very confused person, despite seemingly having so much money. It is reassuring that you pay for all your expenses for altruistic reasons. Good to know there isn't some foreign source for all these trips abroad, medicines, etc. In these difficult credit crunch times, it must involve you in great sacrifices. I will wind up this correspondence with you by hoping you lose your obvious self-hatred and emerge in 2009 as a wiser person.
Complain about this comment
#184 sicilian29 wrote:
"If The Scots or The Welsh were firing rockets at towns near our borders wouldn't you expect The Government to take swift and decisive action?"
You are the one who talks about borders and retaliation.
Why condemn the Palestinians for retaliating? (btw I don't condone their rocket attacks, but I might understand their state of mind).
Being Welsh, I can understand what its like to have one's country conquered, occupied and subjugated by a much larger and more powerful neighbour. A foreign queen and a prince imposed, together with another country's laws, and a flag which pretends that Wales doesn't exist. Its language decimated. I know what it is to be in perpetual tiny minority.
So I might just have more than a little tad of sympathy for the Palestinians.
As for "our borders", isn't this a UK political blog, not just an 'English' one? It seems that we Scots and Welsh can be easily dismissed.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Uganda's army has accused the Lord's Resistance Army rebels of hacking to death 45 civilians in a Catholic church in the Democratic Republic of Congo.
This happened on Christmas Eve and has attracted little notice. Will those bleeding hearts who visit Gaza at least three times a year be travelling to offer aid to these victims. I think not. Catholics are not politically viable as victims.
Complain about this comment
It takes a minute to pray and a second to die
Complain about this comment
# 178 brynt41
You say: "The evidence points to Israel not wanting a two-state solution".
Well then, how do you explain that Israel has been in negotiations with the Palestinian Authority precisely to set up a Palestinian State?
The evidence actually points to Hamas not wanting a two-state solution. They don't recognise Israel.
See what they teach their children! It never ceases to amaze me how some people twist the facts to try to fit their own agenda. President Ahmadinejad of Iran has actually made it clear that he wants to wipe Israel off the map - hardly a two state solution.
I regard the bloodshed as a tragedy.
But those who say Israel should cease to exist are clearly not interested in peace, or a two state solution.
Complain about this comment
#178 brynt41
You say: "What the Nazis did to the Jews of Europe was appalling, words fail to describe it."
Hmmm. Go tell it to President Ahmadinejad of Iran. He doesn't think it happened!
Apparently he also agrees with you that Israel shouldn't exist. (You say: "the creation of Israel had no legal basis in international law".) He would like to see Israel wiped off the map.
You say: "Have we not learned any lessons from history?"
Er.... in your case, apparently not.
Complain about this comment
#190 wrote:
Why condemn the Palestinians for retaliating? (btw I don't condone their rocket attacks, but I might understand their state of mind).
What about the state of mind of The Israelis who for years had to put up with suicide bombs on buses and inside restaurants, attacks which claimed the lives of many innocent people and which led to The Gaza Strip being coralled in the first place. I'm not saying that the present situation is not extremely concerning but there are two participants in this conflict and it is looking increasing likely that it needs a third party to sort it out!
Complain about this comment
#194 DistantTraveller wrote:
"..how do you explain that Israel has been in negotiations with the Palestinian Authority precisely to set up a Palestinian State?"
Abbas and several members of the PA are in the 'pocket' of Israel and the US. The PA is corrupt, much of the funding it gets doesn't reach the ordinary people of the West Bank. Abbas is also under Israeli control, as is the entire WB. It is no position to negotiate anything of substance.
Fundamentally this is a very unequal conflict. Whatever the Palestinians do (Fatah or Hamas) they lose, they cannot win. Their opponents hold all the aces. The Palestinians have no support, because countries are too afraid to upset the US which still has enormous military and economic clout. You saw how Blair and Brown kowtowed to Bush over Afghanistan and Iraq. Brown still hasn't got the guts to pull troops out of Basra for fear of upsetting the White House - the only thing the troops are doing there is killing time - even though Bush will be out of office in three weeks.
One has to be very careful what one writes about Israel, on these BBC blogs, because its such a sensitive political issue. Criticism of Israel wins few friends in the political world.
Back to your main point. Israel has had a number of opportunities to bring about a two-state solution over the last 20 years, (look them up) but there isn't one, is there?
Each and every time, the Palestinians end up weaker, and Israel has strengthened its control over the West Bank (Look at any map of the growth of Israeli settlements, roads, etc) .. they have no intention of relinquishing an inch of that land. They want all of it, and will continue the tit-for-tat, eye-for-an-eye approach, until the Palestinians are driven out. They've very nearly achieved it, already.
They also need the security, a two-state solution based on 1967 borders would mean giving up all the settlements, and Israel would only be 10 miles wide at its narrowest point.
This conflict will go on until Israel achieves its goal... the ancient borders of the Kingdom of David. They believe its their God-given right, and they have the support of tens of millions of Christian fundamentalists in the US, who believe that the restoration of Israel will hasten the Second Coming of Christ.. in our time, according to apocalyptic prophecies in Daniel and the Book of Revelation. (The Zionists are laughing at them all the way to the bank, because they don't believe a word of it).
I'm naive enough to believe in a God of Justice.
Complain about this comment
No 162 you do yourself no favours with your ignorance about concentration camps, but you think every single concentration camp built by the Nazis was a death camp, like Auschwitz, but they weren't.
Concentration camps were started by the British during the Boer War as a means of controlling the population.
Complain about this comment
Phoenix... Various
Are you so totally twisted
WHO I GIVE
MONEY TO IS MY BUSINESS.
NO I AM NOT FULL OF SELF HATRED
BUT CLEARLY YOU ARE JUST FULL OF IT
HATRED THAT IS.
Complain about this comment
Phoenix....
On the accusation of confusion that TITLE
would appear to be your CROWN.
Complain about this comment
# 197 brynt41
You say "Abbas and several members of the PA are in the 'pocket' of Israel and the US."
Whatever the failings of the Palestinian Authority, President Abbas was the elected President. He is willing to negotiate with Israel to find peace.
But you would much rather take sides with Hamas, who staged a violent coup in Gaza and do not want to negotiate peace. Hamas are in the 'pocket' of President Ahmadinejad of Iran - who wants to wipe Israel off the map.
Well, you have made your position quite clear!
Complain about this comment
PLEASE DON'T SHOUT!!
Complain about this comment
#195 DistantTraveller wrote:
"the creation of Israel had no legal basis in international law"... quoting me!
I did, quite deliberately use the past tense there. The Israelis do have several arguments on which they claim a legal basis for their State. By far the strongest is its de facto existence.
Here is what they say:
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_israel_legal.php
I personally think that their historical, and biblical claims are baseless. Those based on the Balfour Declaration, League of Nations Mandate, or the 1947 UN Resolution are weak, because these had no right or jurisdiction to transfer territory. It is one thing to resolve that a people have a right to form a sovereign state, but quite another to say they can take someone else's land to achieve it.
Israel exists. I happen to think that its very unfortunate, but its a reality. That does not mean that I would agree with wiping it off the map, and driving its people into the sea. Its creation has caused a lot of conflict, suffering and misery, which isn't going to end any time soon. Most Palestinians want a compromise solution, as they have suffered, and are suffering, far more than anyone else. It would not be for me, an outsider to tell them what to do or not to do.
You resort to the same tactics as the Zionists. Any criticism of Israel results in the label 'anti-semitic'. You, otoh, lump everyone in with Ahmedinejad.
Complain about this comment
#197 brynt41
You say "This conflict will go on until Israel achieves its goal... the ancient borders of the Kingdom of David. They believe its their God-given right...."
What complete rubbish! Actually, it is Hamas that wants to extend it borders. They want a single Palestinian State that covers the whole of Israel. No 'Two-State' solution for them!
Israel's 'goal' is to negotiate peace with its neighbours. But the starting position has to be that Israel has a right to exist - something that you apparently deny.
Unfortunately, it is this denial which causes the conflict to go on.
Complain about this comment
#201 DistantTraveller wrote:
"...Hamas, who staged a violent coup in Gaza.."
Wrong, they won a democratic election! (26 January 2006)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4650300.stm
At least, DT, take the trouble to get your facts right, or I won't bother discussing with you any further.
Complain about this comment
200. and 199 alexandercurzon
Thought that would get your knickers in a twist. Calm down, dear, whatever you think or do isn't worth the effort. You remind me of somebody once omnipresent on this forum, who hasn't been heard of for a few days. Have you metamorphosised?
Complain about this comment
166. Totally agree, Maggie.
Those millions they have let in here (and before anybody calls me a racist they should come and look at where I am and many other cities in this once great island of ours), are to my mind and the minds of many of us one huge enormous disgraceful cause of wasted funds.
They brought with them illegal foodstuffs, drugs, diseases (TB for one and possibly other diseases into hospitals), crime, forced marriages, rudeness (yes rudeness, stand in a bus queue and see for yourselves), lack of basic English, etc etc.
A complete anathema to the England and its peoples I grew up with.
Why oh why do liberalist, do-gooders, lefties think they can save the world and let it all in here?
Don't they know Britain was not broke before so why did they try to fix it?
Sure needs fixing now. But it may be too late. Get this shower out and a new different government, preferably Conservative, to save the day. Brown is a control freak but he is out of control.
Complain about this comment
brynt41 @203 wrote:
"Israel exists. I happen to think that its very unfortunate, but its a reality."
The same could be said about your beloved Wales.
Complain about this comment
An initial local point.
Isn't it odd that Robinson's Newslog doesn't feature on the Politics front page?
We now have two links (Politics and Business) to Robert Peston.
Why would that be? Peston hasn't posted since the 24th, so hardly more relevant than Robinson's last post...
It seems obvious that no solution to the Middle East crisis will be achieved until not only political, but also religious, solutions are found.
Always amazes me that Jehovah, God and Allah are one and the same object of veneration for the Jews, Christians and Muslims.
All trace back to the same source. The prophets of the Jews are respected by the later religions. Jesus is respected by the Muslims.
So why on earth do people keep on killing each other when there's so much fundamental agreement?
Sad thing is that, in many places, politics has become the new religion.
Wouldn't it be rather nice if we could stop believing that having good thoughts and saying good things makes no difference at all. It's what religious or political leaders actually do for themselves and the people around them that actually counts.
Never been very keen on "an eye for an eye..." approach, but it would probably make a lot of people stop and think before they did something really stupid, if they knew that there was some genuine punishment in store for brutal actions.
What do we get? Blah, blah, blah...
Complain about this comment
Fallopian Tubestar
For what it's worth, David Milliband is Jewish.
Complain about this comment
#203 bryant41
You say: "You resort to the same tactics as the Zionists. Any criticism of Israel results in the label 'anti-semitic'"
No, certainly not. Not all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic, and I haven't said it was - so I don't know why you bring that up. (However, for people who are anti-Semitic, being anti-Israel is a very good cover)
You say: "Israel exists. I happen to think that its very unfortunate..."
On that basis, there's really not much point us discussing it further. You have made your position quite clear.
Complain about this comment
#204 DistantTraveller wrote:
"You say "This conflict will go on until Israel achieves its goal... the ancient borders of the Kingdom of David. They believe its their God-given right...."
What complete rubbish! Actually, it is Hamas that wants to extend it borders. They want a single Palestinian State that covers the whole of Israel. No 'Two-State' solution for them!"
I'm wasting my time with you. No-one is denying Hamas' standpoint. Both the Israelis and Hamas want all of the territory. There are elements within Hamas, according to news reports, which are willing to negotiate.
From their position of overwhelming strength, Israel has not negotiated a settlement. Instead, its grip on the West Bank and East Jerusalem has tightened. I believe it wants all of historic Israel.
Complain about this comment
210. Fallopian Tubestar
For what it's worth, David Milliband is Jewish.
It's not worth anything. He wants to be 'More English than the English.' Rather like Gordon Brown being a Scot. He bends over backwards (only thank goodness a turn of phase) to avoid doing any good for Scotland. But then, can one imagine Brown attempting to do good for anybody?!
Complain about this comment
post 206 Phoenix
I am totally calm, we are just splitting our
sides at your selfishness and stupidity.
As you dont think a Palestinian life is
worth saving.
Complain about this comment
#203 brynt41
You can build a good case for disputes over any "nation's" right to exist.
Australia should still be a place inhabited by the indigenous population.
The USA - indeed all of North and South America - should remain with indigenous populations. They may have slaughtered each other from time to time. And wiped out competing cultures without the help of Western European incomers. We know that happened.
Africa should still be a dark continent (well, it probably still is).
Israel is a peculiar case.
Badly managed when it came into being. But was it worse managed than our efforts to break up Yugoslavia into bits based on much more recent cultural/ethnic lines?
I really don't like the strong-arm stuff from Israel. But I can understand it.
As far as I can see, the boundaries and "right of occupation" of any territory around the world has ALWAYS been based on the "power to impose".
It gets a bit hopeless when Western politicians (like the ineffectual Miliband) say that solutions need to be "political".
Sure. That's why there was a "political" solution to WWI and WWII - after the aggressors had been defeated.
Can't recall any situation where "jaw-jaw" actually managed to prevent "war-war".
I don't like the situation. But you'd have thought that hundreds of millions of people occupying vast territories could allow a people, who "originated" their common God, could occupy a small sector and be tolerated.
Complain about this comment
post 206
Phoenix. .
No change here Alexander Curzon is my
name.
What are your Lancashire origins?
A Red Rose?
Or a Red Poppy?
Complain about this comment
#205 brynt41
You say: "Wrong, they won a democratic election! (26 January 2006)"
Hamas won a majority in Gaza - but you appear to be unaware that Hamas then seized control of Gaza, forcing out Fatah.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/6757053.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2007/06/friday_15_june_2007.html
Hamas doesn't just wage war against Israel, they also fight other Palestinians - and then uses them as human shields.
You say (197) "Abbas is also under Israeli control". Well, that will be news to him and all the Fatah supporters who wish to negotiate a lasting peace. Still, as you say (203) you think it is "very unfortunate" that Israel exists, perhaps that's why you would rubbish those Palestians who want to negotiate.
Still, looking on the bright side, at least you say "That does not mean that I would agree with wiping it off the map, and driving its people into the sea." Phew! That's good news indeed! But, just firing thousands of rockets and sending suicide bombers... that's OK is it?
Complain about this comment
#212 brynt41
"I believe it wants all of historic Israel."
For as long as your opinion is based on this type of misinformation, then you are right, we are wasting time discussing it!
Complain about this comment
#208 MaxSceptic wrote:
""Israel exists. I happen to think that its very unfortunate, but its a reality."
The same could be said about your beloved Wales."
Its England's first and probably its last colony.
At least, we haven't taken someone else's land, and aren't bombing the c**p out of them, which is more than I suspect you can claim for your motherland.
I wouldn't mind a two-state solution here, though.
Complain about this comment
#217 DT
"But, just firing thousands of rockets and sending suicide bombers... that's OK is it?"
Read my #196
Complain about this comment
#218 DT
Time will tell if a two-state solution comes about. I would put my money on 'not'.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
I wonder whether you can help me, perhaps through one of your insightful pieces: can you explain to me whether I could be right in suspecting that the UK media (online, print etc) are guilty of refusing to consider whether Brown deserves some of the blame for the current economic mess??
The govt have obviously got a 'blame the banks, blame the yanks' line, this has even been alluded to in some other BBC online reports but it has pretty much never been challenged. In my mind, if Brown effectively says that he will not allow the recession to get worse 'on his watch', this surely leads to the question of how he allowed the right conditions for a recession to develop 'on his watch', particularly when he was Chancellor.
Are the media complicit in avoiding the subject out of some misguided 'national unity' sentiment (I know the Tories initially fell for this, but they eventually woke up to the ruse, albeit when it was too late). Or is the media just waiting for the public backlash against Brown to develop around Feb/March when the recession gets far worse before addressing Brown's failings?
Thanks,
N
Complain about this comment
Just a thought, and I am being non-partisan here, but it seems to me that where land has been fought over historically, and occupied by different sides, both sides will stake a claim to it, and use certain historical dates to validate their viewpoint.
The question should be: How far back in history do we go to establish who has a legitimate right to occupy certain land?
There are so many instances that are relevant even today. I am no history scholar, and offer no personal opinion, but from my memory the same question also applies to Great Britain/ Ireland, UK/ Falklands/ Argentina, Gibraltar/ UK/ Spain, Iraq/ Mesopotamia, Yugoslavia/ Balkans, Russia/ Prussia/ Germany, and I am sure many more worldwide that better educated people than me could cite.
The question remains, how far back in history should you go to decide who has a divine right to occupy a certain area of land?
Complain about this comment
#220 brynt41
"Read my #196"
Perhaps a typo? At #190 you said "Why condemn the Palestinians for retaliating?"
The simple answer is the thousands of rockets fired into Israel are not 'retaliating'. They are an attack.
#221
You say: "Time will tell if a two-state solution comes about. I would put my money on 'not'."
Well, let's both hope you are mistaken. I very much hope that a peaceful settlement is found soon.
Complain about this comment
222. yellowbelly- The question remains, how far back in history should you go to decide who has a divine right to occupy a certain area of land?-
It's not how far back you go. It's when you've made sure you've annihilated pretty much all the opposition and the majority of the population. Then you know its all yours because there's no one left of any significance to complain.
As long as there's a significantly large proportion of survivors, then you're leaving yourself open to all sorts of future problems. Hence the current Israel Palestine quagmire.
Look at the conquest of America and Australia to see a textbook examples of land annexation. Now those guys knew what they were doing!
Remember, it only counts as genocide if it's practised by your enemy. If you do it, it's called: establishing democracy. Or encouraging free trade. Or securing the integrity of your borders etc.
Good luck and happy hunting!
Complain about this comment
As with all conflicts of this kind it is the poor ordinary people on both sides that are forced to endure most of the ensuing pain.
Complain about this comment
brynt41
I'd be very happy to understand who the "English" are.
Far as I can tell, there were loads of people who made up the people we English were a century ago: Celts, Angles, Saxons, Romans, Scandinavians, Normans... An ultimate mongrel breed.
The Normans first subjugated the closer people (now in England), then moved on to Wales, Scotland and Ireland.
That was only a thousand years ago, but it would be difficult to unravel what's happened in between.
Israel seems to be an anomaly. A point of singularity, when a "people" were allowed to get back to an original "homeland".
Whatever the circumstances, the descendents of those who "identified" a God common to Judaism, Christianity and Islamic faith are back where they say they should be. May not be fair on those who previously occupied the land 3 or 4,000 years ago or re-occupied it 1,000 years ago.
What's fair?
The old Iran/Iraq war killed more people than inhabit Israel. Was that fair? Justifiable? Any more or less so than the Catholic/ Protestant wars? I don't think so.
There was an act of international acceptance (not necessarily approval) that there should be a Jewish homeland. If all the people of Jewish origin "went home", they'd be piled chest high.
Likewise if all the people of English, Scottish, Welsh or Scottish origin "went home", the UK would sink.
Israel is a small sliver of a vast area. At some point it could be just a badland, devestated by nuclear annihilation.
What good would that be to the Palestinians?
Complain about this comment
Worrying times.
1 If the "previews" of Brown's new-year speech are accurate, it should require an investigation by the Met.
A leak from the Prime Minister's office is even more serious than a leak from the Home Office.
2 If the previews are accurate, then we should insist on an independent investigation into the mental state of the PM.
If the leaks represent a real view of what Brown plans to say, it is serious.
He can't be comparing himself to Maggie Thatcher, John Major or Tony Blair. They didn't face "global" crises.
If he's trying to attach himself to Churchill, he's deluded.
Churchill was ostracised - even by his own party - because he warned against perils to come and wanted a change of policy.
In contrast, Brown was a cheer leader for the impending perils. Because he was quite happy creaming off the tax take from stupid economic laxity. Which he either encouraged, or at least allowed.
And now he wants us to believe in him as the "man who saved the world"?
No wonder the Nick Robinson Newslog has been removed from BBC Politics' front page.
Having critical input isn't what Brown or Mandelson would have wanted, I guess.
But just who in the BBC decides to make it harder to access this site?
Complain about this comment
226. At 8:00pm on 29 Dec 2008, sicilian29 wrote:
As with all conflicts of this kind it is the poor ordinary people on both sides that are forced to endure most of the ensuing pain.
+
it's probably people stuck in the middle on neither side that get killed. The shoot out is between Hamas and the Israeli Army.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
apparently the great war leader has spoken. He is 'appalled' at the situation in Gaza.
Brilliant, I suppose he has been sitting down in his armchair picking his nose, and eating what comes out, and all he can come up with is 'appalled'. What a man, what a great leader. Please put us out of our misery, Gordon just leave, call an election, you are not fit for purpose.
Complain about this comment
188 cyberpaulus
viewed slightly through rose-tinted glasses there I feel
but anyway - I feel I have to disagree with your point about the yanks collectively respecting their president
for one, they don't - certainly not Bush - I know many who were deeply ashamed of him and despised the man
I would slightly agree that they do tend to get behind their president when they need to - if not support him, probably more to do with the fact that they have a more nationalistic trait and have presidents for a fixed term
But also remember that they elect a head of state - he is the equivalent of the queen, not the PM, and he actually has less legislative power than a british prime minister - they elect a figurehead and much of the political mud is thrown down in the house where the laws are mostly passed, so he is somewhat of a figure of national unity
we meanwhile have created a system that is in reality based purely on parliament and is supposed* to achieve good government through debate, while the monarch is our ceremonial figurehead, the figure of national unity
it may also be something to do with our current PM - the problem with him is he wasn't elected (yes, yes we know constitutionally nothing is wrong) - but we all considered Blair to be somewhat presidential, and he promised to serve the full term - he didn't and the government changed tack, and like it or not in reality the leader of the party is what wins the election, he and his policies were not voted for and so he has a pretty feeble base with the public - hard to get behind that
But if you think blind loyalty, a ridiculously biased media, religious fervour and rampant nationalism are good traits in a nation, please continue
Complain about this comment
Nick,
I listened to Gordon Brown being interviewed on the Today programme this morning and what struck me was his comments on euthanasia, or assissted suicide. No, I don't want cahnages to laws. Note he didn't want 'laws' changed that is not the same as saying that he would actually do anything to prevent it. A typical Brown cop-out again.
This from a Prime Minister who still has troops in Afghanistan where, believe it or not Mr Brown, our soldiers are killing an awful lot of people. We have a massive technological advantage over the Afghan freedom fighters and yet Brown persists in allowing the inequal struggle to continue. What are we doing in Afghanistan Mr Brown, apart from apparently keeping terrorists off the streets of Britain.
Finally, on his brief interview I would hope that he desists from calling me a citizen, I am not a citizen I am a subject of the Queen, whether he likes it or not, I am not a British citizen. It is the same for Brown, until any constitutional change escaped me we are all subjects of the Queen. The same for our soldiers, they take an oath of allegiance to the Queen, not the prime Minister. They fight and die to defend Queen and country not Brown, Blair, or Cameron.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
Gordon Brown on the importance of human life. Does he only mean British lives, because he shows a total disregard for the lives of foreigners.
This comment derives from the Gordon Brown interview on the Today programme on Radio 4. The man has no substance, such a load of tosh he gave us this morning, inviting in to eat at the manse the local burglar, oh what a funny thing that was Gordon.
What a great leader our Gordon is, this citizen, who will never be what he truly is, a subject, just like the rest of us. Gordon Brown is so compassionate, so empathetic, he feels our pain, yeah, course he does. Is that what he will say when the Group of Twenty visit London in March. The pain, the pain, give it a rest Gordon, you feel nothing. Well I don't think you do anyway.
Complain about this comment
Interesting piece in The Times, from a former Lehman insider...
"... Chairman and CEO Fuld never tired of telling people that Lehman was built to triumph in adversity. That was his understanding of its history and his way of motivating the 26,000 employees at his command. But it also led him and his closest associates latterly to say things that, while obviously sincere and reflecting genuinely held beliefs, had no connection whatsoever with business reality.
This delusion – compounded by the powerful and destructive forces of ambition within the bank – was propelling Lehman towards catastrophe. The death spiral beckoned."
This sounds very much like Brown.
Complain about this comment
No 233 I didn't hear it, but I imagine the interview started something like this:
Interviewer: Good morning Prime Minister.
Golem: Good morning, I'm spending every waking hour thinking about ways to help hard-pressed working families (of which there are likely to be hundreds of thousands less this year) through these troubled times that I hope you understand are a global problem requiring global solutions (pronounced "solewetions").
Complain about this comment
#207
Well said
Complain about this comment
Re Palestine
So the bombing/airaids continue.
Words of nothing from the UK
Government.
My local Orthodox community
consider a death ratio of 1 of
theirs to 10 as acceptable
attrition.
A certain poster on here thinks
that the Palestinians should not
receive medical aid.
Complain about this comment
#207
Well said I could not have put it better myself. Brown is a laughing fool.
But with everyone looking at the middle east your comments were lost. We should sort our own problems out first then look at helping the rest of the world. I like many others are fed up with Israel and Hamas all this stupid tit for tat killing.
Complain about this comment
post 207
well on the mark there.
Complain about this comment
It's not only bloggers on Nicks site that reflect views on Mr Brown. Today's Leader in the Times is quite interesting comparing today with Callaghan's government.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article5415510.ece
To quote the bottom paragraph of the Leader:
"Mr Brown, by contrast, stubbornly declines to acknowledge that today's economic crisis has its roots in policies pursued under Labour. While the ructions in the banking system were sparked by developments overseas, the crisis in the UK has a heavy domestic element. The unsustainable boom in house prices, the weakness of banking supervision and the loss of international investor confidence in the value of sterling all reflect conscious choices made by policymakers in recent years. The Prime Minister must recognise the failings of the past before he can convince us that he knows how to tackle the future."
I coudn't have put it better myself.
It seems that the size of the Brown fan club is rapidly shrinking. Only a few who still hang on his (actually Mandelson's) every word.
Complain about this comment
Gordon the Golem might just destroy the Labour Party. Two scenarios:
One
He decides to go to the country in February 2009 and sneaks to victory before the sheer scale of the economic devastation he has caused to the nation is fully exposed. Being power-mad, the Golem clings desperately to office, in spite of the country wanting rid, until 2014 (still, astonishly, before his street-walker predicts - with insane optimism - that we'll be back to "borrowing only to invest"). I expect the budget of 2009 to totally destroy what little economic credibility Labour has left, just as "Black Wednesday" destroyed the Conservatives. Making a seething nation wait five years will bring an election defeat of biblical proportions for Labour. And Labour isn't as deeply ingrained into the nation as the Conservative Party is. It might not survive.
Two
He dithers and delays, the 2009 budget destroys his government's credibility and he makes the nation wait until the last possible minute in 2010 (just as Major did in 1987). The result would be much the same, although perhaps not as disastrous for Labour as the first one.
Complain about this comment
The Palestine /Israel problem was created by Europe, the USA and religious bigotry over the centuries, which culminated with the genocide in WWII.
Unfortunately, at the end of this, Jewish asylum seekers were armed to the teeth and imported on mass to a small country, and given more rights than most of those already living there. The ancestors of these asylum seekers had not been anywhere near Palestine since the Roman Empire, if at all. In fact, the Ashkenazim were most likely descended from the Caucasian Khazars. But because of the Bible, they, and the US government in particular, believed that God had given them the right to live there and to rule. They then pursued a policy of selected ethnic cleansing and "lebensraum" to ensure their dominance and the relegation of the indigenous population to - at best - second class citizenship, or refugee status.
The indigenous population and neighbouring population never really accepted this state of affairs, and the result has been war ever since. The problem is that the present state of affairs can only be sustained by military support from a religiously blinkered United States.
By the way, I have some Jewish ancestry, so I am not anti Jew, but I am against the notion that anyone can go to someone else's country and take it over just because their ancestors may have lived there a couple of thousand years ago, and the stupid claim that "God" gave it to them anyway. Ironically, many modern Palestinian "Arabs", are likely to be descended from Jews who converted to Islam anyway.
Unless there is a meeting of minds and compromise, generously funded by the rest of the world, there will be a military stand-off, but no solution until the US falters and there is either a nuclear conflagration or the state of Israel goes the way of the mediaeval crusader kingdoms.
This is OUR problem, because with the British mandate etc, we helped create it. The Palestine problem costs us money we cannot afford, because it is the ultimate cause of modern Islamic extremism and the "War on Terror". Even total military victory for Israel would not solve the problem; it would merely poison the next millenium of human history.
A quote from Frank Herbert (Dune Messiah):
Atrocity never balances or rectifies the past. Atrocity merely arms the future for more atrocity.
.... Whoever commits atrocity also commits those future atrocities thus bred.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
The Dignity, a Free Gaza boat on a mission of mercy to besieged Gaza, is being attacked by the Israeli Navy in international waters. The Dignity has been surrounded by at least half-a-dozen Israeli warships. They are firing live ammunition around the Dignity, and one of the warships has rammed the civilian craft causing an unknown amount of damage. Contrary to international maritime law, the Israelis are actively preventing the Dignity from approaching Gaza or finding safe haven in either Egypt or Lebanon. Instead, the Israeli navy is demanding that the Dignity return to Cyprus - despite the fact that the ship does not carry enough fuel to do so. Fortunately, no one aboard the ship has yet been seriously injured.
Just when will somebody stop the Israeli government from breaking international law. Mind you we can hardly complain as we have broken international law when we attacked Iraq. Where is Gordon Brown, when will he give us the benefit of his wisdom, lead Brown, for all our sakes man show some leadership. If you cannot lead then just go, get out now. Do not be afraid to criticise Israel, but admit to your past mistakes at the same time. You are busted.
Complain about this comment
#242 sashaclarkson
Couldn't have put it better myself.
(Surprised the BBC published it, must be because Bush only has three weeks to go).
Complain about this comment
Nick,
I hope that I am not being too harsh but the Prime minister made some comments with regard to Euthanasia this morning I think that we should have some answers.
He pronounced on this issuethat he would not want to "put pressure on people to end their lives".
Now I think that we need to know about the very sad death of his own daughter, could more have been done to save her, or was it felt best that she should slip away. The trouble with Brown is that he seems to be in favour of no change to the abortion law, and the way in which lives are 'wasted', and yet seems to be against euthanasia, he is totally inconsistent.
This is not leadership Brown, I don't think that you have any morals at all.
Complain about this comment
Thanks for your endorsements of my post numbered 207.
I have said it until I am blue (right colour!!) in the face:
BRITAIN TRIES TO SAVE THE WORLD BUT CANNOT SAVE ITSELF.
Brown is not Churchill, can never be Churchill - what a bare faced cheek!
Churchill stopped our shores from being invaded. Brown and Blair ALLOWED indeed actively encouraged our shores to be invaded, and turned a blind eye (hmm!) to millions INVADING us. They should pay for it with their lives - we have had to! I am not joking. They have betrayed us. They really have. All their party political broadcasts and "pep" talks by Herr Brown are just meant to fool us. Time for us to speak for ourselves and, please God, vote them out. How DARE they!!
With this government you have to state the bl***ing obvious to them because they cannot see it they are so thick.
When I was very young I remember (post War) times of strife / famine disasters etc in other parts of the world. The statements put out then were that able people from those places could come here, become educated then RETURN to their own lands to build up their infrastructure etc perhaps with financial help from here and elsewhere.
What you have now is people coming ostensibly for that purpose but staying here because the grass is so much greener. Others who are so ill equipped for western life, non English speaking, who care not for our values, culture, way of life, have come from lawless lands and know nothing else. Complete lack of control on who comes here what they do, where they live - you've heard it all before. But why do we have to spell it out to this stupid, incompetent government?
Maybe it's Scotland's subtle way of waging war on the rest of the UK because it sure looks that way to me.
Complain about this comment
TAG I am sorry but on the issue of euthanisia I do actually agree with the anti lobby.
We came into this world in a natural way and we should depart it in the same way. I have found that those who state they want euthanisa are often cold types of souls themselves - scientists can be like that.
I witnessed my own father's death. He was 91. He fought death to the end, without morphine and unable to walk, but did not want it to end artificially. All he wanted was to know that we, his children, were all right and with him and that it was ok for him to slip away. There was no medical inducement just a peaceful "letting go" when his body told him.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#246 flamepatricia
As usual, I agree with most of what you say.
It saddens and disgusts me to see what has and continues to take place in this once green and pleasant land.
I see behaviour fit for the lowest levels of civilization, no manners, no grace. Drunkeness in the streets, people eating as they pass like cattle munching and surping on water bottles through shopping centres. Unfortunately, many of these are native- born white British subjects. I listened to a BBC programme on "Great White Hope" and it appears working-class (a poor term as most are on benefits) families have low aspirations for their sons. They fare less well at school than the children of African or Caribbean parentage.
It may well be that this class have copied much of the violence and habits of immigrants from violent societies, but it is very disturbing. It seems that the people who should be setting an example and actively demanding standards have remained silent. Save for voices, such as yours flamepatricia, on forums or in newspapers, the usual UK attitude of "be quiet and mind your own business" continues.
Until we have the guts to stand up, risking a knifing or shooting at best, insults at worst, the rot in this once decent land will continue.
Complain about this comment
jamaicans may be the most cantankerous people but they are friendlier and kinder than the brits if you get to know them
Complain about this comment
I see that young George Osbourne is proposing some tax measures for the next Tory administration.
Whats strikes me is the utter timidity of his proposal, basically deferring a rise in NI.
How about introducing some much needed honesty in Government and proposing to merge Income Tax and National 'Insurance' into a single tax and slicing a bit off that (efficiency savings of running one system).
Seems to me that the Tories are still banking (ho ho) on Labour being in a dark place come election time.
That is a dangerous assumption.
Complain about this comment
#242 sashaclarkson
Your attempt to summarise the origins of the modern state of Israel contains the type of inaccuracies usually employed by those who think Israel should not exist.
Furthermore, your assertion that "many modern Palestinian "Arabs", are likely to be descended from Jews who converted to Islam anyway" is based on what?
Your absurd claim that "Jewish asylum seekers were armed to the teeth and imported on mass to a small country" is also totally wrong.
Firstly Jewish settlers were not "imported on mass". In fact, the British turned away as many away as they could. For example, the ship Exodus with 4500 frail survivors from Germany was turned back to Europe by the British Navy. Secondly, the Jews were not "armed to the teeth". When all the surrounding Arab countries decided to attack at once (in the days following independence in 1948), Israel was outnumbered and outgunned.
Despite your convenient historical inaccuracies, none of this actually moves us on or deals with the reality of today.
Israel does exist - and there it is. Had the Arab countries not tried again to wipe it out in 1967, the entire West Bank would still be part of Jordan and Gaza would still be part of Egypt.
Pre 1967, there was no talk of Jordan and Egypt relinquishing Gaza or the West Bank to create a separate country.
The reality is that time has moved on and thankfully there is peace between Israel, Egypt and Jordan. Egypt and Jordan do not want Gaza or the West Bank back, and it is agreed that these should form a new Palestinian State.
The best way NOW to secure peace for all the people in the area is to accept a Two-State solution - something that Hamas apparently will not do.
Complain about this comment
246 & 249
Wot no rivers of blood?
Complain about this comment
Question
Hello, could you please help with this question. In hip hop speak, what is a matrix? Thank you very much.
Answer
Hi, a matrix is defined as, "A surrounding substance within which something else originates, develops, or is contained".
Professor Griff opens with groundbreaking research about the way white people truly view black people.
Complain about this comment
Where's Nick?
Why has the access to his Blog been relegated?
There can only be 3 possibilities:
1. He's on holiday and the BBC can't be bothered to inform us.
2. He's being re-programmed by Campbellson because his pro-Brown bias has been weak of late - and the BBC are too embarrassed to inform us.
3. He's been fired ('re-assigned') - like Ed Stourton - and the BBC haven't got round to telling him yet.
Does anyone know the truth?
Complain about this comment
#252 My information comes from one hell of a lot of reading of informed sources. Encyclopeadiae, Arthur Koestler, Sir John Glubb, to name but a few. My opinion of this matter changed completely as I informed myself.
Take one example - Jaffa used to be an Arab City. It isn't now. The creation of the state of Israel was a great injustice, supported by people who'd failed to prevent the Holocaust. Unfortunately two wrongs don't make a right.
Now the state of Israel exists - in some ways Hitler's most enduring legacy. Israeli sovereignty over settlements in the occupied territories closely mirrors the relationship between apartheid South Africa and its black "homelands". Of course, in other ways Israel has redeeming features which Nazi Germany and the apartheid state did not. It is a genuine democracy and many of its people and politicians are thoroughly decent human beings. Nonetheless, the state of Israel was founded in injustice: by means of terrorism, murder and selected ethnic cleansing. The main injustice, which persists to this day, is the assumption by the Israelis that any Jew anywhere in the world has a greater right to live in Palestine than the indigenous population.
You can't expel populations en masse again, which some on both sides wish to do. BUT, until everyone in that land has equal rights, and there is at least recompense for stolen land, there will be no peace.
Complain about this comment
253. MunichMadrid7980 wrote:
246 & 249
Wot no rivers of blood?
Very clever, using Ian Powell's famous words, but quite inappropriate.
The only rivers of blood are those of the drunkards 'bottling' each other and innocent passersby, and the rest of the ignorant lowlifes who prowl our streets knifing and shooting other people. These are not, in most cases racially morivated attacks, but are the result of the breakdown of family life and society. With an over-tolerant, weak fatherless society headed by the likes of this government what can one expect?
Complain about this comment
#252 DistantTraveller wrote:
"Firstly Jewish settlers were not "imported on mass". In fact, the British turned away as many away as they could. For example, the ship Exodus with 4500 frail survivors from Germany was turned back to Europe by the British Navy."
According to data collated for the UN by the British Mandate 367,845 Jews migrated to Palestine between 1920-45 under the terms of the Mandate. It is true that the British had a quota, but this was because the British authorities in Palestine couldn't cope with larger numbers arriving, and what the country could absorb.
It wasn't until the threat of war in the late 30s, and the possibility that in this war the Arabs (unlike WWI) would support Germany because of the atrocious treatment they had received at the hands of the British and the French after 1918 ... for supporting the British they had been promised independence from Ottoman rule, but instead they came under British and French control. There were a number of Arab revolts. Napoleon was on the button when he said.. 'Perfidious Albion'.. true to the present day.
After 1945 the British stopped further immigration, because they could not cope with the problems caused. However, about 60,000 Jews still got in. A further 50,000 were interned in Cyprus. The Exodus incident, of course, took place in 1947, but by then the Jewish population of Palestine had grown to the point that it threatened to outnumber the indigenous population, hence serious Arab unrest and attacks on the British and a civil war. During this period, the Zionists also attacked the British, for preventing further immigration.
"When all the surrounding Arab countries decided to attack at once (in the days following independence in 1948), Israel was outnumbered and outgunned."
Israel did not gain 'independence', the Jewish National Council in Tel Aviv under the leadership of David Ben Gurion, declared, unilaterally, on Friday 14 May 1948, the establishment of the State of Israel, on the day the British left Palestine. President Truman recognised Israel 11 minutes after the declaration.
Its worth reading an account of the war of 1948-49 in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War
Complain about this comment
sashaclarkson @256 wrote:
"Take one example - Jaffa used to be an Arab City. It isn't now."
Firstly, there remain a significant minority of Israeli Arabs inhabit Jaffa - now part of the Tel Aviv-Jaffa municipality. (by the way, whilst there is some prejudice, unlike the remnants of Jews in Arab countries, Israeli Arabs have full democratic rights including full suffrage, independent political parties and representatives in parliament. In fact they have more rights than the citizens of virtually every Arab state - but let's not dwell on it as it doesn't suit the liberal-left narrative....).
Secondly, how far back do you want to go?
Before Jaffa was an 'arab city' (conquered from the Christains in the 7th century by rising Islam) it was Byzantine, Roman, Greek, Judean, Israelite, Philistine, Egyptian and so on, back into the 'dawn of time'.
Complain about this comment
One in four pensioners is still living in poverty. In total 2.5 million pensioners are now living below the official poverty line of 151 GBP a week, the National Pensioners Convention said.
Today's state pension is worth even less in relation to average wages than it was, when it was introduced 100 years ago, in 1908.
Millions of elderly people live in poverty , figures suggest.
Poor pensioners in nursing homes are to receive a "Scrooge-worthy" rise in their allowances of just 75p a week.
Poorest nursing home residents to get 'Scrooge-worthy' 75p rise in allowance.
Appears that Duff Brown has not had his visit from Christmas Ghost Past, Present or Future, yet!
Complain about this comment
The number of high-earning council officials would be cut under Conservative proposals for overhauling local government in England.
Fat cats on councils to be cut under Tories.
There would also be a new legal requirement for authorities to hold referendums when they propose big rises in council tax.
Whats a referendum?
Complain about this comment
A large majority of voters are convinced that the Labour Government bears much of the responsibility for the current economic crisis.
The Tories greatest asset is that they are not in power right now.
Tories' election mantra or slogan will be to NuLabour: You got us into this mess and it's clear you can't get us out of it.
Complain about this comment
Nice seasonal cartoon from the Times.
Complain about this comment
#259 MaxSceptic wrote:
"Israeli Arabs have full democratic rights including full suffrage, independent political parties and representatives in parliament. In fact they have more rights than the citizens of virtually every Arab state - but let's not dwell on it as it doesn't suit the liberal-left narrative....)"
How about reading this article about Israeli Arab citizens and how they feel about it...?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/07/world/middleeast/07israel.html
I'm not a supporter of the Palestinians because I'm 'liberal-left'. I don't want to be labelled politically, probably as much as you don't. I simply was astonished when I read the history of the conflict, at the tremendous injustice which the Palestinian people have suffered.. and are suffering this very moment.
When this is pointed out, the immediate reaction of Zionists is to point to other injustices in the world (and there are plenty). What they are actually saying is... "Why pick on the wrongs Israel has perpetrated? ... its because you're anti-Semitic, isn't it?
That is, they attack the person, not what he's saying and the evidence being presented.
Having been brought up as a Christian, I was actually pro-Israel, until in the 1980s I read widely about the issue. Its a vast subject, and accusations can be made against both sides, but when it comes to raw injustice, then the Palestinian case is unassailable.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
So this blog is now accessible from the Politics front page, even if Nick is still enjoying a break. Maybe its reinstatement has something to do with a picture of a grinning Gordon Brown and news that his popularity is going up again.
Meanwhile, in the real world outside the Westminster bubble, his policies continue to bring this country to its knees. I dreamt last night that I found someone foolish enough to exchange euros for my pounds at parity (either the crisis is really getting to me or it was the cheese).
Anyway, praise where it's due - I actually support Gordon Brown speaking out against laws promoting euthanasia. I hope he has the moral courage to revisit the decisions taken in Parliament earlier in the year on human embryo research and the abortion laws.
Complain about this comment
I note that David Milliband continues to make noises about the conflict in Gaza.
I was under a mistaken impression that the post of Foreign Secretary was amongst the most senior in Government, and that Britain still had a voice in World Affairs as one of the permanent members of the Security Council, member of NATO, "special relationship" with the USA etc.
It would seem that rather than intervene directly, Mr Milliband is looking to a lead from the EU.
Now is this because Mr Milliband does not appreciate the trappings of his office, or is he already on board with the new EU constitution where foreign affairs and military action are co-ordinated under the flag of a single superstate?
(Incidentally I am aware of Mr Milliband's provenance, but don't want to get into discussion based upon it).
Complain about this comment
#256 sashaclarkson
I think there is very little point in trying to have a meaningful discussion with you if your starting point is "The creation of the state of Israel was a great injustice" and that Israel is "Hitler's most enduring legacy".
However much you resent the existence of Israel, it is there, so I'm afraid you will just have learn to live with it.
Meanwhile, for the people who actually live in the region, the best opportunity for peace is a Two-State solution.
The land in question has changed hands many times in its history - with the West Bank and Gaza most recently belonging to Jordan and Egypt respectively.
It's time for people to recognise each other's right to exist, and to learn to live as neighbours. Unfortunately, this isn't currently on the Hamas/Iran agenda as they would prefer Israel to be wiped off the map.
Despite your objection to Israel's entire existence, you say (as if in mitigation) "many of its people and politicians are thoroughly decent human beings". How patronising it that?
Complain about this comment
History repeats itself:
1978 Labour Isnt Working Poster caused agency trouble
For those to young to have seen the poster or those that have forgotten what it looked like, I have published a link below:
With the predicted 3 Mill unemployed the Tories just need to dig out the Poster they used in 1979.
Complain about this comment
brynt41 @264 wrote:
"... when it comes to raw injustice, then the Palestinian case is unassailable."
No it isn't.
I refer you to paragraphs 5 and 6 of my previous post @119 above.
Perhaps while your at it, you'll answer the question I posed in the final sentence. No-one has yet.
Complain about this comment
"Gordon Brown speaking out against laws promoting euthanasia"
Just naked self-preservation ;-)
Complain about this comment
Giant Ponzi scheme uncovered at the heart of the UK.
Click on the link to see if you have lost money in this scheme!
http://cityunslicker.blogspot.com/2008/12/giant-ponzi-scheme-uncovered-at-heart.html
Complain about this comment
#258 brynt41
With regard to the population of Israel in 1948, there was an influx of people, many of them refugees. But it is not correct to suggest they were "imported" as was suggested in an earlier comment, and nor were they "armed to the teeth".
It's also terribly inconvenient for those who oppose the existence of Israel to recall that many Jews had been expelled from surrounding Arab countries or forced to flee . Where were they supposed to go?
You clearly have your own view of history. My view is there is now an expectation for two-state solution amongst those who wish to live in peaceful coexistence with their neighbours. The extremists who seek to wipe Israel off the map are simply delaying the peace that most people want.
Complain about this comment
249. Phoenix.
I agree many of our own behave disgracefully, sometimes copyi others from abroad who have come to live here - speak in Afro street speak, innit, I aks you (I ask you) and so on, get into drugs (which countries do they come from - not here!), knife crime etc.
However, if I may, think of it like a family. If a happy supportive loving family (such as England basically was before the "invasion") where everything is fine but then the father then said "I have such a lovely, well adjusted, successful family I am going to go out and get lots of foreigners to come and live in my house and we will all bend over backwards to accommodate them. Don't you upset them or say anything about their behaviour, colour or culture, but it's all right for them to upset us", do you think that same family would continue in their stable happy manner or do you think they would become resentful, lose their self esteem, lose interest in their studies, behaviour etc?
In other words the father has told them "I am so clever to have raised a wonderful family and love you all so much I am going to go out and get lots more people to add to my "family" and look after them too".
Recipe for a happy unit? Recipe for a happy well adjusted country? I don't think so. Not in those areas where this happens.
Again, it is not rocket science, just common sense, of which the "father / Labour" has none.
Complain about this comment
Vis a vis the current Israel Palestine pickle and the debate that has sprung up in recent days on these blogs regarding it.
There seem to be a lot of people talking about injustice in the world.
I thought that as we were on the subject of genocide and its ugly consequences, I was wondering whether we might have a debate on the hundred day genocide that occurred in Rwanda in 1991 that the world, especially the west, largely ignored, which resulted in the deaths of up to a million Tutsis.
Might it not be the right thing for someone to consult the Tutsis on whether they feel they might like to be relocated somewhere out of the way where they could set up a homeland. Somewhere tranquil where they could be left alone to recover in peace. As this sort of thing has been tried before, and utilising previous experience I was thinking that we could move them somewhere where they’d never lived in two thousand years or more, somewhere out of the way that they could develop into a state of their own.
Just to get the ball rolling I was thinking maybe it might be nice to give them I don’t know, maybe Cornwall or the Home Counties.
Do you think any of the locals there would disagree?
Complain about this comment
257 phoenix
It seems a bit strange to accuse Brown of being over-tolerant. Tories generally say that he resembles Stalin and Mugabe, not John Lennon.
It strikes me that this is yet another example of people clamouring for more individual freedom, then when they see the results clamouring for less.
What people mean is that they want more freedom for themselves, and less for those groups that they do not like.
The same applies to economics- look what happened when the banks were given too much freedom.
Now remind me again, which major UK political party advocates greater individual and corporate freedom?
269. Roll on
Since you clearly weren't around / can't remember the years between 1979 and 1997, why not do a bit of research about what took place during those halsion days. Then you might want to revise your advice to the Tories to bring back that 'Labour isn't working' poster.
Complain about this comment
#119 MaxSceptic
"Question: If Israel were to disappear tomorrow would all these countries suddenly become beacons of tolerance and enlightenment?"
What's that got to do with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians?
Criticism of Israel does not make anyone an apologist for the behaviour/actions of any person or country. Its a silly and illogical question.
I think the ME would be more stable if Israel didn't exist, as its a primary cause of instability, not only in that region, but in the world, today. But Israel does exist, and it isn't going to go away soon.
I would be interested in a citation or reference (with details) for Israel's absorption of Arab refugees (non-Jewish Arabs) from countries such as Morocco, Iraq and Yemen, if you are able to provide it.
Complain about this comment
#272- very amusing but sadly a lot of truth to it.
Complain about this comment
#276 MunichMadrid7980
"Now remind me again, which major UK political party advocates greater individual and corporate freedom?"
===
Now remind me, which party has been in power for the last 11 years and presided over the "worst economic downturn in 60 years", to quote Alistair Darling?
Complain about this comment
#273
There's been an expectation of a 'two-state' solution since 1947.... remember the UN Partition Plan... a plan to create two states in Palestine, one Jewish, the other Arab (Moslem-Christian). That's what the pro-Zionist United States wanted.
It hasn't happened yet, and its 60 years. My bet is it won't happen, unless what's created is a Palestinian bantustan, ie a state completely dominated or controlled by another. Such a 'statehood' could be imposed by Israel and the US on Abbas, as he's in no position to negotiate a meaningful settlement.
The longer the conflict goes on, the stronger Israel's hold on the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem gets. There are so many settlers and settlements there now, that Israel can claim it would be unreasonable to remove the majority of them.
Israel has kept the pot boiling ever since its creation. It assisted Britain and France by attacking the Arabs in 1956 so as to give a pretext for snatching the Canal back from Nasser. The US forced a climbdown because it feared the Soviet response, because it was likely to provide Egypt with the weaponry to stand up to Israel and the US.
The best example is 2006 with its attack on Lebanon, in response to the kidnapping of two IDF soldiers. It destroyed southern Lebanon and bombed Beirut, killing large numbers of innocent civilians and over a twelve hundred children.
If Israel wanted a two-state solution, consisting of a very weak Palestinian bantustan, with Bush in the White House it could have been easily achieved. In my opinion, that's the last thing Israel wants. It ultimately wants the Arabs out altogether. The creation, even of a weak, Palestinian state will hinder that prospect.
Israel has and will blame anyone... Arafat Hezobollah, Hamas, Iran, Ahmedinejad... and use them as an excuse for more violence. Yet it has killed far more innocent civilians than all these put together.
Today its bombing and shelling Gaza's overcrowded tenements and refugee camps with its F16 aircraft and warships for the fourth day and night in a row, when before this present crisis no Israeli had been killed by one of those primitive rockets. Its actions are never proportionate.
Complain about this comment
#276 munichMadrid7980
"What people mean is that they want more freedom for themselves, and less for those groups that they do not like.
The same applies to economics- look what happened when the banks were given too much freedom. "
===
By Gordon Brown, then Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Complain about this comment
Yes, serious absence of the paid labour bloggers on here! Poor old souls put out to grass or do they get paid leave over the Christmas period????
Complain about this comment
#276 MunichMadrid7980
"Since you clearly weren't around / can't remember the years between 1979 and 1997, why not do a bit of research about what took place during those halsion days. Then you might want to revise your advice to the Tories to bring back that 'Labour isn't working' poster."
===
Since you clearly weren't around/ can't remember the years 1974 to 1979 and the mess that the last Labour government left the country in, you might want to revise your advice.
Complain about this comment
of course, the Israelis don't bear ALL of the blame for the troubles in the middle east but their tendency to use cruel and unusual force way out of proportion to the greivance - you know, slap my face and I'll kill you and the whole of your family - means that they forfeit many people's sympathy
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#276 MunichMadrid7980
I am old enough to remember the early1970's - I remember the Winter of discontent and the preceding recession that put Thatcher into power. The NuLabour apologists on here have airbrushed those events from history.
I remember the whole family sitting round a paraffin stove in one room to keep warm. My kids doing their homework by candlelight because of the power cuts. Walking past piles of rubbish in the streets because of strikes. Wondering if our kids would go to school the following week as they were running out of coal for heating and might send them home. We could not even bury our dead.
Prior to the Winter of Discontent Inflation peaked at 26.9% in the year to August 1975 under Callaghan who had succeeded Wilson as PM. Throughout most of 1975 the BoE base interest rate was running at 11.5% .
Yep I remember those Halcyon days well.
It is little wonder that the Tories won the GE in 1979 after the abysmal performance by Labour.
Unfortunately things are currently stacking up that way today! Do Labour never learn.
I have found a copy of the 1979 Tory winning poster. Nice thing tinternet.
Winter of Discontent 1
Winter of Discontent 2
Winter of Discontent 3
There is even a recent comparison with the current crisis and the Winter of Discontent in the Telegraph 008.09.2008.
Now some people, especially NuLabour and their supporters will put it down slipshod journalism, attempt to re-write it or dare I say - say it never happened.
I also remember Labour going, cap in hand, to the IMF for money to bail GB out of the mess they had created! Funny how history appears to be repeating itself given the recent events.
Complain about this comment
274. flamepatricia
Sorry I couldn't reply before. Read your posting carefully, and afraid your analogy of the family, whilst interesting cannot apply. Reason: the family has systematically and deliberately been destroyed by statespeople such as Harman et al. Some of the best behaved and finest neighbours were the Asians expelled from East Africa and Uganda. They had strong family structures, but I regretfully see a lessening of these foundations as time spent here in the UK makes its influences felt. The West Indians who came over in the 50s, at governmental invitation, were mainly G-d fearing, decent people. Unfortunately, the policies of political correctness make correcting bad grammar or incorrect English a no-no. In the Caribbean it was accepted that children needed strict discipline. If this was practised here, the parents would wind up in prison. There is also a reverse snobbism, where the educated deliberately dumb down and adapt coarse accents. I may be incorrect, but I believe I read that Prince Harry is receiving instruction in Cockney speech!
276. MunichMadrid7980
By the same token, I state Brown is too tolerant, but only where it is politically correct to be so. Check, and you will find only one person in five finishes up in prison for making knife attacks.
Complain about this comment
I have just been reading a book given to me for Xmas by my youngest.
50 people who buggered up Britain – Quentin Letts.
These 50 people, Letts argues, are those who made our country the ugly, ignorant, beer-ridden and brawling bum of the Western world.
In half a century we have gone from end of Empire to Hades in a wheelbarrow.
I recommend it.
Complain about this comment
#272
Hate to say so, but a Ponzi scheme only works if a dozen ideologically-driven fools signs up for every one in the scheme previously. Even Team GB never had that much of a boom in its support.
At least while you've all been dossing, the euro has near enough reached parity with the pound...odd how things read when you turn them on their heads, isn't it? And you can't get into Marks for the hordes of Euro-trippers buying tat which'll fall apart in two weeks - or perhaps you haven't noticed they've traded back down-market on quality of late? Last time they did that, it near destroyed them.
And what about Boots? When even a Swansea bus driver castigates them for over-pricing and predicts they're next for the big drop, what chance has the man on the Clapham Omnibus got to dissent?
Now then, try those for Ponzi schemes...
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
NHS hospitals are suffering from a deterioration in the level of compassion shown to patients by clinical staff, a health think-tank has warned.
NHS hospitals are suffering from lack of compassion.
Ambulancemen decided dying man not worth saving.
Welcome to the caring UK.
Complain about this comment
Phoenix.
There are many decent honest family oriented West Indians, etc. who came here in the past and were grateful for a new start and prospects. These people did for the most part become integrated (apart from a few hiccups) and they were and are decent types. They now ask US why are you letting these hoards of unchecked immigrants, migrants in?
What I see is ghetto type areas where people stay with their own kind, never wanting to integrate. Birmingham, Wolverhampton, London of course, Manchester, ALL the big cities and, sadly, some outer areas too. There is a "white flight" out to Devon and abroad and that is making these ghetto areas even more concentrated.
With all the education and expertise available to the government you would have thought they would have studied the social, environmental and financial aspects of it all but, no, apparently that is beyond them.
Complain about this comment
269 roll_on
it's already been broken out - was reused by the tabloids with a dentist's queue - didn't stop them then
I don't think a rehash of the 70s campaign will do the trick tbh, but hopefully they will fall either way
Complain about this comment
292. flamepatricia
My last position before retirement brought me into contact with social workers, support workers and nursing staff. Many of these difficult jobs were held by people from the Caribbean. Immigrants who had arrived in the Fifties and worked long and hard to achieve a decent life style. Several times I heard the same story. Those near to retirement were seriously thinking of returning to their lands of birth. The reasons were not nostalgia, nor the British climate, they wanted to escape what the UK had become with the type of immigrants flooding in. Many were distressed at the way their grandchildren were abused by other young people in burkas because they dressed in modern style, and the drug usage and violence in the areas which were pedalled openly. The drug dealers often being family members of the burka-clad young women who condemned short skirts and sleeves! So yes, on this point we agree flamepatricia, and it is very sad.
Complain about this comment
Yes, Phoenix. Very graphically put. What you see is what I see too and is, indeed, most sad.
However, I am angry too. Angry that my father and grandfather fought in two World Wars for a different kind of society. My father said to me many times before he died aged 91 that he was sad and angry at the way the country had become. He was not suffering from dementia and was in full possession of his intellect.
When I speak to others up and down the country they mostly say the same.
I did hear one exception though and that was from someone who lives in a beautiful house on a cliff miles away from others and who branded me a "racist" saying we owe it to those people because of our Imperial past.
Our Imperial past was not all bad. Indeed, we vastly improved many places. I consider the cliff dweller's views to be niave and he was a Social Worker! Typical!
Complain about this comment
Universities should be free to charge whatever fees they like to improve the quality of teaching, a report commissioned by John Denham, the universities secretary, has recommended.
Denham is due to begin a review of tuition fees next year; they could be raised from 2011.
At a time when we should be retraining and up-skilling to meet demand after the recession NuLabour plan to raise student fees dramatically.
You couldn’t make this up even if you tried!
There again everyone has to sacrifice for Duff Gordons 11 year binge!
Complain about this comment
Hey, Roll On, whilst we are at it I do consider that there may be too many people going to uni.
Yes I do!
Some of them are just not uni. material and are only there for the beer and skittles. Miraculously they seem to get their degrees but many do not get degree related jobs and would have done as well to have gone into apprenticeships (were they available). Now our young people won't take the "practical" type of jobs because they think those jobs are beneath them so it's no wonder that the Eastern Europeans are taking them.
My own children went to uni. and luckily did get good jobs but they had friends who seemed to be students for years, well into their twenties, just dossing and globe trotting. All this lack of tax paying costs the country too.
Complain about this comment
295. flamepatricia
I will digress slightly and remark that most of the social workers who I knew, actually worked, very hard, in the field and naturally had fairly low grades with rotten salaries to match. The person who accused you of being a racist, if he/she was a social worker, was probably of the ilk of that one in Haringey where poor Baby P died. The lovely house on the cliff was obviously owned by an armchair socialist who earned an extremely high salary, due to a political appointment. No, I am not being paranoid, but I saw too often how the system works. My father, too died, at the age of 94, an angry man. He served in the army, and indeed I sometimes believe his anger in the way things were becoming kept him alive and healthy. Adrenaline!
Complain about this comment
Re: phoenixarisenq & flamepatricia
what a full angry set of I don't know what to call you!
Complain about this comment
sometimes I don't drink tea just to help out situation
Complain about this comment
brynt41 @277 wrote:
"Question: If Israel were to disappear tomorrow would all these countries suddenly become beacons of tolerance and enlightenment?"
What's that got to do with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians?
Everything. Israel is accused of being the core reason not just for Palestinian suffering but for all the 'instability' in the Middle East (Though how this explains the 'instability' in Algeria, Egypt, Saudi, Iraq, Kashmir, Sudan, Southern Thailand, the Philippine, etc. is beyond my ken).
as indeed brynt41 adds:
"I think the ME would be more stable if Israel didn't exist, as its a primary cause of instability, not only in that region, but in the world, today."
Hitler promised a more 'stable' Europe once it was 'Jew-free'. He had a 'final solution' for that problem of 'instability'. In fact, 'stability' could well be a prime definition of a graveyard.
brynt41 asks:
"I would be interested in a citation or reference (with details) for Israel's absorption of Arab refugees (non-Jewish Arabs) from countries such as Morocco, Iraq and Yemen, if you are able to provide it.
It is, unfortunately, a bit late for me to start serious researches (and I am no authority on such matters), however, cursory information from the internet indicates that at the time of the founding of Israel in 1948 there were over 856,000 Jews living in the Arab countries of the Middle East and North Africa. By the 1970s most of the Jewish communities in these countries had disappeared, mostly emigrated, mainly to Israel (with France as second most 'popular' choice).
An independent (though EU-funded) think tank called MEDEA says that 445,000 Jews emigrated to Israel after 1948. Whatever figure you chose, this is of a similar magnitude to the (up to) 750,000 arabs who left the Israel in 1948 (though hundreds of thousands of arabs did not leave and are now Israeli citizens).
Population exchanges are never nice - or neat - but sometimes a realistic necessity (think of Greece-Turkey 1922). The difference is in how Israel treated and absorbed its incoming immigrants compared to how the arab countries (mis)treated their 'brothers'.
Complain about this comment
# 280 bryant4
You say "There's been an expectation of a 'two-state' solution since 1947.... "
The fact is, before 1967, the West Bank was part of Jordan, and Gaza was part of Egypt. Either of those countries could have done as they wished with their land. But back then, no one was contemplating a separate 'Palestinian State'. (At that time, the Arab countries had just failed a one-state solution by attempting to destroy Israel)
The Jordanians actually weren't too keen and expelled the PLO in 1970 because they didn't like the idea of armed militias or a state within a state.
President Nasser of Egypt even accused the Jordanians of carrying out a plan to annihilate all Palestinian resistance and described attacks on refugee camps in Jordan as a "horrible massacre"
But of course, that's all very conveniently forgotten!
Complain about this comment
299. kikidread
Re: phoenixarisenq & flamepatricia
what a full angry set of I don't know what to call you!
Enlightened? Logical?
How's that for starters?
Hope you are having a nice evening!
Complain about this comment
# 280 bryant4
You say: "If Israel wanted a two-state solution, consisting of a very weak Palestinian bantustan, with Bush in the White House it could have been easily achieved."
You've got to be joking! Ignoring your satirical use of the word 'bantustan', Hamas has never accepted a Two State solution as they have made very clear.
The fact that you say (277) "I think the ME would be more stable if Israel didn't exist" explains your position very clearly indeed.
To say that Israel's existence is the cause of all the problems is a bit like crashing a car into a wall, then saying the crash wouldn't have happened if the wall hadn't been there.
Israel exists. The challenge is to find a way to encourage all the countries to accept each other's right to peaceful existence and to make peace.
I'm sorry to say I don't find anything in your contribution to encourage a solution, other than Israel somehow ceasing to exist. Never mind. I'm sure your words will bring comfort to some!
Complain about this comment
When will there be a harvest for the world; Indeed!
Here we are almost 2009, and the age old manner of distruction and death still remains ripe through-out this world; where nations build their biggest technology budgets around weapons and defence.
What have we learned from history, "NOTHING"
Its a very, very sad world indeed people, I guess when leadership resorts to military action, Then all the sense of leadership and values is eroded, there is something fundamentally flawed with the human teachings, we will ever learn from "HISTORY"
Complain about this comment
Re Phoenixarisenq
Your argument that the Palestinians should NOT receive
Medical aid discredits ALL that
you say.
Hows your HATRED going i hear it
can be a serious illness.
Lancashire origins! Not Edenfield
i hope?
Complain about this comment
#299-what a full angry set of I don't know what to call you!
Have just woken up up and been reading phoenixarisenq & flamepatricia discussion, the sad this is this what I hear many everyday people discussing day in day out, if they are angry people there are many, many more people out there with similar feelings.
Complain about this comment
#291 Roll_On_2010
Those paramedics might have saved the country a few thousands. Perhaps they knew more about the dying man than we do. It might have been a hopeless case and might have caused more distress.
On the whole Britain is caring and how many lives have those paramedics saved in the past.
Complain about this comment
Israel scores an own goal!
Complain about this comment
#305 derekbarker
"Its a very, very sad world indeed people, I guess when leadership resorts to military action, Then all the sense of leadership and values is eroded"
===
You said it!!
Just remind us who took us to war in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Complain about this comment
307. tenmaya
Good morning,
Wouldn't you say anger is better than apathy? As long as this emotion can be channelled into political means, rather than violence, I can see it as a positive reaction to perceived wrongs in society.
Complain about this comment
Phoenixarisenq post 303
Enlightened??
Logical??
Your protest at medical aid for
Palestinians was neither.
You are obviously DELUDED.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#261 Roll_on
The Conservatives have no credibility whatsoever when it comes to talking about efficiency savings through reforming two-tier areas of local government.
This Government strongly encouraged two-tier areas to merge into a unitary authority. This would improve efficiency dramatically (both directly through less staff being needed and indirectly through the umpteen local partnerships that require large bureaucracy and painfully slow decision-making being far easier to manage). It would also help local government become more accountable - at the moment in two tier areas no-one has a clue who is responsible for what.
I worked for a large Conservative shire county in 2006 when the Government were looking at this. We were looking at the business case for reforming local government in this way. We found 100 MILLION POUNDS worth of direct efficiency savings - 10% of expenditure in the authority.
So, efficiency Cameron would want that you would think? No brainer?
But no. Cameron said no. 2 reasons given by the politicos at Conservative Central Office.
1. We do not want Labour to have any efficiency savings. We want to wait for a Conservative government if we were to do this, so then WE can claim the credit.
2. All two tier areas are Conservative-controlled. We would make a lot of our councillors redundant (and also be unable to quote statistics showing how the massively higher % of Conservative councillors there are than the % Labour) and also damage our grassroots base were we to merge authorities.
A third reason was that many county councillors were also district councillors. Turkeys do not vote for Christmas! The leader of the council I worked for was threatened with being the target of a press smear campaign if he pressed ahead - the media would be told of allegations of inappropriate behaviour with children. Local politics sure is nasty!
SO
Cameron has no credibility at all. He said "no" to 100 million a year of efficiency savings for political reasons.
Complain about this comment
derekbarker post 305
Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzz
You are back ?
Been on holiday with the Party?
Is this pre election Spin Mode??
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#301 MaxSceptic
The Israeli Zionists welcome Jews from any part of the world to settle in Israel. Their Law of Return, the very first law they enacted in 1948, gives all Jews the right of citizenship and settlement in Israel. You can't give them credit for absorbing Jewish refugees who left Arab countries to live in Israel, because that was their policy. The more Jews that emigrated to Israel, the better.
If Arab and Christian refugees had been allowed to return then Israel would not have had a Jewish majority in their so-called democratic state. Only by manipulating demography on a pseudo religious, but actually racist, basis can it masquerade under democratic credentials.
South Africa was castigated for its racism, and boycotted by the world community. Israel, just as motivated to maintain a racially based state - the only one in the world - has the wholehearted support of the US, because of the Jewish and Christian fundamentalist right lobby there, so that ensures it has to be right no matter what appalling actions it takes. In their eyes, it has the sanction of the Judeo-Christian God. No criticism of Israel can pass the lips of any serious US politician.
Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and John McCain all had to address the AIPAC Convention, the pro-Israel lobbying group in the US - the most powerful one in the country, and give Israel their outright backing. Without doing so, they had no hope of being elected.
Barack Obama's first appointment after his election, as Chief-of-Staff, was the Jewish Rahm Emanuel. Benjamin, Rahm's father, was a member of Irgun, a Zionist terrorist group responsible for bombing hotels, marketplaces as well as the infamous Deir Yassin massacre, in which hundreds of Palestinian villagers were slaughtered.
Benjamin Emanuel was quoted as saying on his son's appointment, "Obviously, he will influence the President to be pro-Israel. Why shouldn't he do it? What is he, an Arab? He's not going to clean the floor of the White House."
Its true that Rahm subsequently apologised for his father's gaffe, but to quote Mandy Rice-Davies, "He would say that, wouldn't he!"
I'm not particularly optimistic that the Palestinians will be much better off when Obama takes office, but it remains to be seen. Its difficult to believe that any President could be worse than Bush.
Britain isn't much better, Blair never criticised Israel during his premiership. He was subsequently appointed as special envoy for the Middle East Quartet (the EU, US, Russia and the UN) with a portfolio to bring about Palestinian economic and political reform (no mention of Israel). Ehud Olmert described Blair as, "A true friend of the State of Israel" when Blair resigned a PM.
Brown has appointed David Miliband, who is Jewish, as Foreign Secretary. Since his appointment he hasn't uttered one word of criticism, let alone condemnation, of Israel's disproportionate actions towards the Palestinians or the Lebanese.
The EU has extensive trade relations with Israel under the EU-Israel Association Agreement. Controversially, significant exports from Jewish settlements in the occupied territories to the EU have been taking place under the Agreement.
Racist South Africa was viewed as a pariah state, but Israel has few problems vis-a-vis the international community. I find that hypocritical in the extreme.
In the meantime the bombing and shelling of defenceless Gaza by F16 jets and Israeli warships continues. Apparently the tough approach increases the electoral support for the candidates in the forthcoming Israeli election. The victor will have bought his/her political success with the deaths of hundreds of innocent Palestinians. Shameful.
Complain about this comment
317. StrictlyPickled
Brilliant!
Complain about this comment
phoenixarisenq post 319
Guess thats a "Brilliant" for the
PALESTINIAN DEATHS?
Following your version of LOGIC!
After all you have such
enlightened views.
Complain about this comment
phoenix, pat and roll,
From your rantings you appear to be intolerant misanthropes, whose opinions belong to another era- probably when Britain ruled the waves, and peasants and foreigners knew their place.
Fortunately for the rest of us, the UK and beyond are not the broken societies you describe, and Britain in particular has become a far happier, and more prosperous, country since 1997.
That prosperity was largely gained through Britain's position as the world's most important financial centre. Unfortunately, the world's bankers grew too greedy and abused the very free market which sustained them and us. You'd prefer it to be Gordy's fault, or even Peter Mandelson's, but not even your warped logic can pin the collapse of the world's financial system on them. The free market ate itself.
It's hard for you Daily Mail and Telegraph types to accept, but what capitalism broke can only be fixed now by massive state intervention.
This would even be true if your chinless aristo free market heroes were in power, just look at what Bush and Paulson have had to swallow over the pond- nationalising Citibank for Gord's sake. So, you had better get used to the UK and the rest of the developed world becoming ever more dependent on governments- more state intervention I'm afraid.
The free market bust itself, so the bad old lefties are going to have to fix it. You had better pray their medicine works, because if not it will not be your boy wonders who benefit, nor will the wealthy escape with their fortunes in tact. Social unrest is the threat which hangs over us all, you only have to look at Greece, where banks and big business have been attacked by the mob.
So, swallow your principles for the next few years and get behind Gordy, for the good of us all, but especially yourselves.
Complain about this comment
To stop most fighting in the world is easy.
Ban all forms of religion. Nothing to fight over and we can all get along happy.
Complain about this comment
#321 MunichMadrid7980 wrote:
"...get behind Gordy..."
I'd rather be behind him, than have him behind me, just ask Blair.
Better still, I'd rather be a million miles away from him. He's the most disgusting politician since Thatcher, despite heavy competition.
Look at how worthless those bits of paper with that woman's head on them, in your wallet, are becoming. How come that if its a US and world crisis, its sterling that's suffering the most?
Its undeniable that McBroon played a significant part in causing the problem - the facts speak for themselves.
Trouble is, the system only allows us the choice between one incompetent bunch or another.
Complain about this comment
I was listening to the Today programme that was put together by Cardinal CMO'C and his interview with Mr Brown.
In it Mr Brown told the story of inviting the local burglar into the house when he was a child.
I immediately knew exactly how his father felt; I have suffered the same countless times in the last 11 years.
Complain about this comment
#321 BayernReal
"So swallow your principles for the next few years and get behind Gordy"
You conveniently ignore the disastrous mishandling of the economy and financial regulation of the current PM. Ok, the causes were not entirely confined to our own shores, but credit where it's due, Gordon Brown could hardly have done more to exacerbate the problems during his tenure in office.
Notwithstanding the damage already done, Brown's present policies are leading us further towards the precipice.
"We" didn't "save the banks" - the poultice of tax-payers money has patched over the surface, but the underlying wound is deep. For once, I would suggest nationalisation is needed so that the banks can be made to focus on helping the economy to recover, not on returning to profitability by extending their margins.
This is a time when interest rates should be realistic - a base rate of 5% perhaps, to encourage savings and inward investment and give support for the pound. The low rates are there to provide life support to the banks and because our national debt is so great that we need to reduce the amount of "dead money" (from taxpayers) needed to service the interest payments (let alone pay off the principal). The rest ("kick starting the economy") is spin.
I see Brown like that woman in the old Russian fable - as the wolves close in, she throws her children off the troika to keep the pack from attacking her. The only difference is that it's our children's livelihood rather than their lives that are being sacrificed.
Brown should go and go soon. Every day he lumbers on is a day further towards the edge.
We face a huge challenge in 2009. Even if there were a change of Government, I have little confidence that an incoming Conservative administration would be able to turn things around (as a second-rate opposition, they could turn out to be a third-rate Government, but then that's better than the present fifth-rate shower).
For all our sakes, I wish you and everyone else here a peaceful and prosperous New Year.
Complain about this comment
brynt41 @318,
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....
So much outrage when Jews defend themselves.
Let's play the numbers game:
In the 60 years since Israel was founded estimates of total killed on all sides (including wars, intifadas and terrorism) is anything up to 125,000 military AND civilians.
That figure is just over 2,000 deaths a year.
Quite awful, but let's put this into perspective.
In other areas of the arab/muslim world things were actually worse:
- Yemen civil war '62-70 - 80,000 dead (10,000 per year).
- Algeria civil war '92-02 - 160,000 dead (10,000 per year)
- Syrian repression of Hama 1982 - 20,000 dead (all in one year. Wow!)
- Kashmir (2005 alone) 84,000 civilian deaths.
- Lebanon civil wars (various) - about 150,000.
- Sudan: we've all lost count....
- Iraq (self-inflicted and - uh - 'assisted'): let's not even go there!
As for other parts of the world: Congo - 4 million; Rwanda 800,000; Philippines 35,000; Balkans, Chechnia, Georgia... etc.. etc,
Am I being callous?
Hey, just last week 400 christians were massacred in Congo on Xmas Day by Ugandan rebels. I didn't see too much distraught reporting or popular outrage and demonstrations. I guess it's hard to pin that one on the Israelis or Jews......
Complain about this comment
MunichMadrid7980 @321
I'd love to 'get behind Gordy'...
...if he was standing on the edge of the cliff at Beachy Head
Complain about this comment
#322 maggyisntanythingorthesort
"To stop most fighting in the world is easy. Ban all forms of religion."
Sorry, but it isn't due to any one or more "things". Take religion away and you're still left with in group/out group tension, tribalism, greed, need, futility, fear.
It's the condition of the human heart: until we find true peace to replace the universal detachment and brokenness, there can never be peace within and between nations.
Complain about this comment
re 327. Please not, it would ruin a perfectly good tourist area.
can't we drop him down a mineshaft in Wales instead?
Complain about this comment
# Great idea, Pol Pot tried the same thing and how swimingly that went you muppet. Stop pretending you think for yourself when you are just parroting domatic fundamentalists like Dawkings !
Complain about this comment
Save Our Souls (S.O.S.).. We the British are confused and are stuck up in our own history and self importance
Complain about this comment
runskippyrun wrote:
"re 327. Please not, it would ruin a perfectly good tourist area.
can't we drop him down a mineshaft in Wales instead?"
I don't think the Welsh would appreciate the pollution.
....and the Scots don't seem to want him back....
Complain about this comment
The Israeli situation may have been precipitated by the huge losses suffered by the NY Jewish circles in a certain pyramid scam, and by the replacement of a Republican president by a Democrat one who not only is of Muslim origins but has already pronounced policies aimed at weakening the Israeli position. Listening to recent interviews, they feel painted into the same kind of corner they faced in 1973, with the bonus of the 1967 threat that Arab holdings a very short distance from the coast are capable of cutting them in half and not much scope to manoeuvre.
The difference this time is they have the initiative, we know this is but the first of five phases, and that they have seriously lost it with arab fundamentalism.
A nightmare scenario suggests this means they have every interest in going all the way now, in other words pushing the 3 million refugees from Gaza into Egypt, taking the canal to let a cover force through, before spinning smartly left through Eilat to follow the Red Sea coast down the Mecca - the race will then be on between them and the Saudi forces, who've got further yet to go getting there from Riyadh. That way they can destroy all three Muslim holy sites and leave the fundamentalists without a fundament.
The Muslim world might yet pay dearly for their abuse of UN decisions.
Complain about this comment
rahere @333,
WOW!
Can I have some of what your taking this New Year's Eve, or is it only available on prescription?
Complain about this comment
321. MunichMadrid7980
Really, old chap, fancy suggesting I get behind Gordon Brown. Still, you can't really wish me serious ill, you didn't suggest that he and his crony Lord Mandy get behind me!!!
Happy New Year and watch your back!!!!!
Complain about this comment
New Year Prediction:
No General Election this year as UK economy starts to pick up in spring/early summer 2010.
Labour lose an election called then despite having managed the recession reasonably well in difficult, partly self-inflicted circumstances, mainly because the people desire a change of faces in charge; with a sub-text of the English finally tiring of Scottish professional politicians running England.
That is my reading of the political runes.
A very 'surviving' New Year to all bloggers.
Complain about this comment
# 318 brynt41
You say: "Brown has appointed David Miliband, who is Jewish, as Foreign Secretary"
And your point is?
Complain about this comment
Off topoic, this is New Year's Eve after all, and soon most of the country will be going mad. Just heard on BBC radio a review of the past year. Max Mosley's sordid little adventure got great coverage. He denied any Nazi connotations. I believe him. There was just him and five, yes FIVE ladies of the night. It must have been a case of share and share alike. Not Fascism, surely Marxism at its purest, or impurest, depending on your bent. His parents must be spinning in their graves.
Complain about this comment
337. Sorry to but in but it may be difficult for Milliband, who is Jewish, to look at things impartially. That's all.
Complain about this comment
321. Sorry Mate (that Socialist enough speak for ya?). You are in the minority.
You can get behind Gordy if YA like but the rest of us are not for turning.
Wait and see.
Anyway, I thought you Socialists were not capitalists. Hmmmmmmmm
Complain about this comment
This is something to make you laugh - or not depending upon how serious you all are on this last day of 2008.
I asked my husband (who is not remotely interested in politics) how on earth a Jewish foreign secretary, Milliband, will approach the Israeli military action problem.
His retort:
"He's going to sort that country out."
How? I asked.
"Because he speaks the language".
I creased up.....:)
Complain about this comment
#339 flamepatricia
You say: "Sorry to but in but it may be difficult for Milliband, who is Jewish, to look at things impartially. That's all"
Oh really? I thought Miliband had called for a ceasefire!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7804373.stm
It's funny how when some people start to criticise Israel, it doesn't take them too long to get around to Jews in general. Perhaps you think Jewish people shouldn't hold public office just in case they can't act 'impartially'.
Complain about this comment
That is ridiculous. Of course Jewish people should hold office if they have the necessary qualities. What I am saying is he is likely to be more emotive, involved etc. and it may be personally difficult for him. He's probably got friends and relatives out there.
Complain about this comment
How ignorant we are.
Bloggers may care to read the piece in todays Times on Hamas.
Things are not quite as they might seem.
The sometimes dark hand of Blair-Bush is revealed.
Some folks just love 'playing God'.
Complain about this comment
#328
Religion is the way of nearly all ways the reason for war.
Remove religion and why fight, why hate no need to fear getting on a bus and being blow to bits. Its causes trouble from world leaders right down to Rangers and Celtic football fans. Even in families were one has to change religion so two people who are in love with each other can get married.
While we have religion we will never have peace.
Complain about this comment
#343 Ozymandias
(I met a traveller from a distant land...)
According to your link, Milliband has called for the EU to call for a ceasefire "on both sides" (although that is not part of the direct quotation):
"Mr Milliband dismissed that idea [Nick Clegg's proposal that the EU suspend a co-operation agreement with Israel] as "naive" but said EU ministers should "maintain the international calls for a ceasefire" on both sides.
"These are louder and louder calls and they are increasingly unanimous," he said. "
If you read my previous comments about Milliband, you will see that I refuse to get drawn in over his provenance just for the reasons you give.
His singular lack of action in a key position is another matter altogether.
Complain about this comment
flamepatricia we are not listening to you we are having a party
Greetings and blessings to each and everyone inter-outer national globally, It has been a while, but we are back with a big bag of selection to skank out the nation with chapter meets version excursion!!
Barack Obama - The Rootical Inspirational Mix
http://ambassada.podOmatic.com/entry/eg/2008-12-01T22_53_43-08_00
Complain about this comment
just give a little love and move on
Complain about this comment
Good God Kiki, what are you on?
Well, so long as you are happy, then just you party on.
I guess we will Political Party on here as is our wont.
Complain about this comment
323 bryn & 325 fair
Forget about Sterling-Euro being anything to do with economic fundamentals- anyone in the game will tell you that it's a non-starter. The hedge funds have got a bee in their bonnet for shorting sterling at the moment- well, they're not allowed to short the banks any longer, and anyway bank shares cannot fall below zero so there's little profit to be made there. It's like when the hedge funds ramped oil up to $147, it had nothing to do with fundamentals, and sooner or later they'll all try to take profit on sterling at once. Meanwhile, all UK exporters should try to fix their rates here for as far into the future as possible... The current rate is great for Britain, and terrible for the Eurozone- they can hardly try to raise prices on us, can they?
Also, forget any ideas you may have that Brown or any UK prime minister had / has any control over what the world's major (non-nationalised) banks get up to. No commentator, nor Cameron, Cable, Osbourne, has ever offered any evidence that GB could have prevented the global investment banking industry from parcelling up mortgages and selling them to retail investors (inc. deposit-taking banks) as AAA rated, when they were, in reality, junk. Much of this activity happened in cyberspace between New York, London and the tax havens where big investors generally park their cash.
No one has yet pinned this on Brown because of reality- it really was not his job to tell the UK's chief culprits (RBS, HBOS etc) which assets they were allowed to buy, trade or hold. Now it's all gone wrong, however, of course the free-market gurus of global banking bleat for more state intervention. While they were raking in billions, though, regulation was anathema to the banks, who threatened to move their cash cows out of any jurisdiction which threatened to regulate (or tax) them too heavily.
As for raising rates to 5% to protect sterling- it's pointless, for it would cause an immediate slide into depression, leading to mass unemployment, and a real collapse in the pound. On the contrary, having a currency which can be slowly devalued, as has happened to sterling, is a big advantage for us at the moment- we are paying ourselves less, and we owe less, without a great deal of pain. Contrast our position with that of eg Ireland, in which mortgage and other debts are currently increasing in value whilst the country becomes ever less competitive.
You can sense that Eurozone members don't like our competitive advantage gained by a weak pound from their politicians' negative comments- it does not help Germany that one of its main export markets now pays it 30% less in Euro terms for its products, nor does having a very cheap competitor on its doorstep help it to preserve German jobs.
Having a weak currency and low interest rates will protect us from the worst of this recession. Low base rates also help UK banks to recapitalise via increased margins, no bad thing for us taxpayers as we own a great chunk of them.
Complain about this comment
MunichMadrid7980 @ 350
In my opinion, what is needed now in the financial sector is not more regulation - the banks were already heavily regulated and still made bad mistakes - but more transparency.
Transparency, commensurate with appropriate 'commercial confidentiality' should do the trick and reveal unhealthy practices before they get out-of-hand in the future.
My New Years gift to the BoE/Treasury/FSA.
Complain about this comment
#345 Maggyisntanythingofthesort
I imagine you are John Lennon and I claim my five pounds...
Complain about this comment
#321 MunichMadrid7980
That’s the biggest load of twaddle I have read on this blog for quite some time.
But I did like your final ranting:
I would love to get behind Duff. That has been one of my dearest wishes for this millennia.
I have plenty of Paxo left over from Xmas. My only problem would be, which flavour to use!
You so called socialists must be desperate!
Complain about this comment
#339 flamepatricia wrote:
"Sorry to but in but it may be difficult for Milliband, who is Jewish, to look at things impartially. That's all."
Do feel free, anytime!!!
Complain about this comment
#350 MunichMadrid7980
A socialist with a capitalist conscience, that sounds remarkably like the NuLabour project.
Are you Derek Draper?
If you are, you had better have a lie down on a couch and do a self assessment, it may help!
By the way a blogger on a previous NR blog found the calculator that Crash Gordon uses.
I feel sure that Duff will not mind you using it. Have fun!!!!!
Complain about this comment
Happy New Year to everyone. In the meantime, this is what is going on around the world.
The US government expanded its bailout of the auto industry, while Japan reportedly considered a $110 billion scheme to buy bad loans from banks, the latest in a string of government moves aimed at reducing the damage from the worst downturn since the 1930s.
Japanese stocks finished modestly higher on their last trading day of 2008, capping a grim year which saw the Nikkei index plunge 42 per cent, the biggest loss in its 58-year history, as recession fears battered global markets.
Analysts forecast more pain for consumers and investors in 2009 as bleak economic news continued to flood in from around the world, but said hopes of more government rescue packages were helping to shore up financial markets for now.
"Everyone's pinning their hopes on economic stimulus policies by the US and possibly China," said Tomomi Yamashita, a fund manager at Shinkin Asset Management.
"But people aren't watching things like company results as closely as they should be. We can't say for sure that the market's bottomed out until we see these next spring."
The US government said late on Monday it was pumping $5 billion into General Motors' auto and mortgage financing arm GMAC and lending an additional $1 billion to GM to help it buy shares in GMAC, which is considered crucial to GM's survival. The loan to GM would come on top of assistance extended to the No. 1 US automaker earlier this month.
The government agreed on December 19 to rescue GM and Chrysler LLC with up to $17.4 billion in loans to stave off a collapse that would have cost hundreds of thousands of jobs and dealt a severe blow to an economy already in recession.
GMAC has lost $7.9 billion over the last five quarters as the global credit crunch lifted its borrowing costs sharply and the value of many of its assets plunged.
Japan's government may also be weighing fresh moves to keep the country from sliding deeper into recession. The Sankei Shimbun yesterday reported that the government and central bank are hoping to launch a $110 billion scheme by the end of March to buy bad loans and other financial assets from banks using public money to ease the corporate credit crunch.
The move would theoretically free up banks to lend more money to companies which are struggling to raise funds through more traditional means such as selling bonds or new shares. But banks worldwide are growing more reluctant to lend as they brace for a slew of bad loans as economies sour.
Analysts also doubted whether any such plan would be as effective today as in the late 1990s, when Japanese banks were saddled with a much bigger pile of bad loans.
The global crisis has shut many firms out of credit markets and slashed their earnings, forcing companies to postpone expansions, reduce production and cut staff, further undermining economic growth and impeding recovery.
South Korea yesterday pledged to ramp up support for its banks next year as more grim economic news flooded in.
South Korea's industrial output fell 10.7 per cent in November the biggest monthly decline since 1987, as domestic and export demand slumped. Some analysts say Asia's fourth-largest economy will shrink next year for the first time in 11 years, putting pressure on its central bank to cut interest rates further.
In New Zealand, data showed household borrowing fell for the first time in 17 years in November as consumers cut spending in the face of recession. Without a solid revival in consumer spending, there is little hope for a strong global recovery. Reports on Monday showed Europe was also slipping into a deeper funk. The French economy stalled, morale at Italian businesses sank to its lowest level since at least 1991 and the Chartered Institute of Personnel Development forecast as many as 600,000 people could lose their jobs in Britain next year.
Many forecasters believe the downturn will continue well into mid-2009, with more layoffs and bankruptcies to come, but investors are hoping battered stock markets will rebound sooner in anticipation of a recovery.
"2008 was the year of the serpent, everyone got bitten," said fund manager Paul Biddle with Souls Funds Management in Australia.
In short, the UK is not doing worse then others, so one has to be optimistic, that by the end of 2009 we shall mount this GLOBAL recession!
Happy New Year Nick.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#356
Good evening, Alistair and Peter.
Complain about this comment
339. flamepatricia 337.
Sorry to but in but it may be difficult for Milliband, who is Jewish, to look at things impartially. That's all.
Hello flamepatricia,
After we have both been castigated so harshly together, it' s a pity that I must disagree with you. I believe that Milliband, like 99.9% of politicans puts politics ahead of any religious ethics. An ambitious person will certainly make homage to Rome (as stated in the New Testament) rather than to the Lord G-d. In any case, this is irrevelant in Milliband's case, since although of Jewish extraction he was raised by a Marxist father and is the typical product of extreme armchair socialism. In 341. You wrote that your husband thought 'he probably spoke the language.' I doubt that he speaks Hebrew, he is more likely to speak Russian. Finally, I don't think having the same religion affects politicans in any manner. Consider the recent Balkan wars. The Serbs, a mainly Christian people were.not supported by the West, whereas the Moslems received their patronage. The massacre of Christians, Catholics in this instance on Christmas Eve in the Congo hasnt' received any Christian support from nominally Christian governments. Support is only given, unfortunately for political reasons and rarely for truly altruistic reasons. As a non-believing, non-practicising man of Jewish descent, Milliband will no doubt go out of his way to prove he has no hidden agendas or sentiments. He will certainly be no Wingate, who was a Gentile friend of Jewish pioneers of pre-State Israel.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
357 - EconomicallyLiterate
I can think of many more deserving cases of this level of recognition, and most of them are serving in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Complain about this comment
Please Moderator let this blog go through. There is nothing libellous nor abusive in it.
339. flamepatricia 337.
Sorry to but in but it may be difficult for Milliband, who is Jewish, to look at things impartially. That's all.
Hello flamepatricia,
After we have both been castigated so harshly together, it' s a pity that I must disagree with you. I believe that Milliband, like 99.9% of politicans puts politics ahead of any religious ethics. An ambitious person will certainly make homage to Rome (as stated in the New Testament) rather than to the Lord G-d. In any case, this is irrevelant in Milliband's case, since although of Jewish extraction he was raised by a Marxist father and is the typical product of extreme armchair socialism. In 341. You wrote that your husband thought 'he probably spoke the language.' I doubt that he speaks Hebrew, he is more likely to speak Russian. Finally, I don't think having the same religion affects politicans in any manner. Consider the recent Balkan wars. The Serbs, a mainly Christian people were.not supported by the West, whereas the Moslems received their patronage. The massacre of Christians, Catholics in this instance on Christmas Eve in the Congo hasnt' received any Christian support from nominally Christian governments. Support is only given, unfortunately for political reasons and rarely for truly altruistic reasons. As a non-believing, non-practicising man of Jewish descent, Milliband will no doubt go out of his way to prove he has no hidden agendas or sentiments. He will certainly be no Wingate, who was a Gentile friend of Jewish pioneers of pre-State Israel.
Complain about this comment
# 343 flamepatricia
You say "Of course Jewish people should hold office if they have the necessary qualities"
That's good news indeed! But I would have thought that would apply to people of any religion (or none)
You say: "What I am saying is he is likely to be more emotive, involved etc. and it may be personally difficult for him"
and (#339) "it may be difficult for Milliband, who is Jewish, to look at things impartially"
So, if you doubt his ability to act impartially, it seems to me you are saying he doesn't have the "necessary qualities". Simply based on the fact he is Jewish!
Complain about this comment
It's been lovely today, Liberty Hall, almost no moderated out blogs. Now suddenly, an innocent letter I wrote is causing furor. Have the regular moderators gone off for the holidays and a team of dour-faced miseries taken their place!
If I don't get the chance tonight, or rather, this year. Happy New Year to you all, and until the next time.......
Complain about this comment
# 364 phoenix
My last comment has been removed too. Yet the message to which I was replying is still there (as it should be!)
It would be absolutely astonishing if earlier comments questioning Miliband's suitability based on his religion are deemed OK, but the BBC removes a message that objects!
Happy New Year to one and all!
Complain about this comment
#365 DT
I wasn't questioning DM's suitability for the post of FS on the basis of his religious affiliations ... he's described as a 'Jewish atheist' (that's not quite the same as simply 'atheist', if you take the trouble to read about it in Wiki or elsewhere) just an observation that he has been uncritical of Israel's disproportionate actions re the Palestinians.
It was a British Foreign Secretary, Arthur Balfour (& former PM).. a Christian.. who paved the way for the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine. I'm led to believe that he had personal religious beliefs as well as political reasons for his support of the Zionist movement.
Balfour was an adherent of the teachings of John Nelson Darby (1800-82.. an Anglo-Irish evangelist and an influential member of the Plymouth Brethren) who was the father of modern Dispensationalism. Darby's beliefs about the fate of the Jews and the re-establishment of the Kingdom of Israel put dispensationalists at the forefront of Christian Zionism. In essence they hold that Israel had to be re-established in the holy land before the Second Coming of Christ could take place. It is a doctrine held by millions of fundamentalist and pentecostal believers in the US (and elsewhere). There's a lot to it, if you care to read up about it.
I don't agree that a person's religious beliefs (or lack of belief) will necessarily prevent him/her from being impartial, not that impartiality is always a good thing. Often its necessary to take sides, because one side is simply 'wrong'.
Complain about this comment
Phoenix - I bow to your greater knowledge and am impressed.
I do not have the historical or in-depth knowledge that you and some others have; I speak from instinct as (forgive the expression!) woman (or person if I must) on the street!
My forte is fine art, for which I was originally trained before going on to work at the Treasury as a secretary, eons ago. (Strange course, I know!).
However, I find myself being more and more interested in politics and am amazed at the apathy and complacency of many of the general public, - some don't even vote.
You would think they would take an interest because it's their lives and their children's lives and futures which are affected.
I would like to take this opportunity to wish everyone here a Happy and a Healthy New Year. Let's hope that it's not too bleak.
Complain about this comment
367
Dear flamepatricia,
I was sincerely moved by your kind words. How wonderful to have studied fine art, a subject which I have always found fascinating. Life is weird, after training in such a gracious discipline, being thrown into the nitty-gritty of finance. Still, I am sure your earlier training enriched your outlook and whole life.
Once again I wish you and all friends and 'enemies' on the forum a Very Happy New Year. Haven't forgotten you, either, grandantidote, power_to_the_people and all, and trust you are not creating havoc on this New Year's Eve!
I'm off to bed since I'm exhausted with all this blogging. Good Nite!!!
Complain about this comment
297 flamepatricia
i agree there are too many people at 'university'
But i do not think charging up to c.17000 quid a year is a fair way of keeping the numbers down
I agreed with the fees as they are now (and I did have to pay them) because too many people do go, and it would be unfair for the state to fund all of them
but these sort of extortionate fees, which are designed to create a sort of american system, are grossly unfair - the very fact 'american' is mentioned should ring alarm bells
what will happen is the old elitism will return - only the wealthy will be able to afford to go to the best unis, leaving most people out regardless of intelligence, the poorest will undoubtedly get grants - and those in the middle will, as usual, feel the squeeze and have to fund their way through because they just about meet the income level
why is it when it comes to a left-wing idea i can support comes around, labour can't even get that right
anyway, happy new year people, see you in the afternoon of 2009
Complain about this comment
#366. At 8:15pm on 31 Dec 2008, brynt41 wrote:
#365 DT
"I wasn't questioning DM's suitability for the post of FS on the basis of his religious affiliations ... he's described as a 'Jewish atheist' (that's not quite the same as simply 'atheist', if you take the trouble to read about it in Wiki or elsewhere) just an observation that he has been uncritical of Israel's disproportionate actions re the Palestinians."
Come on. If you're an atheist it simply means you can't accept some "God" figure who created the universe, life and everything.
Wiki is a plague. Allows all sorts of stuff to gain credence (belief - which is like believing in a God or the lack of him/her/it...).
Since Jews, Christians and Muslims believe in the same God, why could anyone believe that an atheist is anything other than a person who doesn't believe in a being who allowed the Big Bang to kick off this mess?
What do you want? A Jewish athesit? A Christian atheist? A Muslim atheist? A Hindu atheist? A Zoroastrian atheist?
Then what? A question on the next set of intrusive census forms to find out what relgious/cultural background you came from (or could have had any influence on your thinking) before you became an atheist?
You don't have to believe in a God to do something good.
You have to be pretty odd if you fight people who believe in the same God but want to dress him/her/it in specially coloured clothes.
(Probably determined by spin-doctors we tend to tolerate because they have a calling towards a particular voice...)
If the "English" - still not sure who they are - had wanted to, they would have elminated the "Welsh" - whoever they are - over the previous millennium.
Sounds as though you can still hold a grudge. After 1,000 years? Come on.
If the majority people living in what we call England, or the Norman/Anglos or other people had pushed the Welsh into the sea, (which could easily have happened) would you think that your ancestors - grandparents - would have been pleased to have a "homeland" in what we call Wales?
And would you want to fight for the "right" to stay there?
I'm not that happy about anything to do with the M.E. It's all been divided up as a result of external "diplomatic" activities. Just like Africa.
Lines on a map don't necessarily mean anything.
Do European nations bear responsiblity. Yes. Up to a point, Lord Cooper. Mugabe isn't a "nice guy". Stuffing up his people for purely political objectives. At least the Israelis have made a fairly arid area deliver quite a lot of natural resources.
If the USA pulled the plug, Israel could disappear. Leaving what, exactly? Another series of inter-Arab wars?
The sooner the West develops an alternative to oil-based energy, the better.
Complain about this comment
#334
WOW! Reality - just listen carefully to what's coming out of Tel Aviv. Another factor which will argues against the Israelis putting up with the usual UN practices of prevarication and negociation to gain time in the hopes things will cool down is the imminence of the General Election in Feb 12, by which time they need a decisive and absolute resolution. Their forces gathering on the Gaza strip border aren't a little raid, this is a clear-out of a pest-hole on a massive and permanent scale in preparation. As they don't have any carpet to sweep them under and Egypt's done naff all to stop the tunnelling and supplying of military merchandise, I do hope Mubarrak has some tents, as this is three times the number who Moses led the other way all those years ago, and it took them forty years to settle down after being kicked out.
Just to put a framework on this, the governing Kadima party is pretty much a rebadged Likud, who were responsible foir the Sabra and Shatila massacres in 1982, when the Israelis similarly expunged equally troublesome (from their point of view, at least) PLO forces in the Beka valley.
This would be echoed in 2006 in the Hezbollah rocketing of Northern Israel following Israeli attacks in retaliation for the abduction/murder of 2 soldiers. The odd thing to my mind is that we have seen the PLO move into a lower stance, followed by Hezbollah, and Fatah dissapear into the Syrian political régime. Is it possible that this will see Hamas brought back into the fold, at the expense of significant further disruption in the mean time? Although Livni is both ex-Mossad and the daughter of sabrah parents, she is also something of a dove - where possible. However, her current statements indicate that this has been excluded as an option. Time will tell.
In the mean time, my thoughts are with a large number of good friends and colleagues manning the Rafah crossing. Pietro and friends, keep the faith.
Anyway, rahere's wish for 2009 is what many usually ask for, but are most unlikely to get this year - out with the old, in with the new...
Old bankers
Old policies
Old Iberian practices
Old formerly-nationalised monopolies
And not necessarily new editions of the same...
Complain about this comment
derekbarker,
Don't often agree with you, but it's fairly evident that politicians are increasingly unable to understand an historical context.
Bit sad, when our PM has a PhD in History. (Even allowing for the fact that his thesis was based on a Scottish Independent Labour Party firebrand... Recognised as a real parliamentarian, even by Churchill!)
We went through some of this garbage before. (Even during my lifetime...) We've seen the stupidity of the "Internet boom". That was nothing to do with "value" - just "expectation".
So why didn't the massive brains in No 10 and 11 - with all those special advisors - miss the fact that credit-based growth was, quite frankly, as stupid as you can get?
Wealth and security are different. Having enough to eat and being able to "go home" to a place that you know will be there is enough for most folk. Probably not achievable for millions.
Having some bloke employed via taxes to check whether your child brushed his/her teeth probably just qualify as a justification for a job paid for by tax-payers.
We're just about there.
Too many bloody stupid "publicly-required" tasks being carried out, at our cost, when government can't even manage it's finance properly.
Whatever. Happy New Year to all.
Complain about this comment
What the heck.
I hope Gordon enjoys a good Hogmanay.
If he goes first-footing, I just hope that the poor folk he calls on have made sure they've hidden their bank books, pension credits or credit cards away.
Otherwise, it could be a very expensive New Year for them, as well as us.
But, hey, you pensioners in care - you'll get another 75p per week soon, so go out and celebrate...
With a half of... what exactly?
Milk of human kindness can only make sense if the bloke who dispenses it actually owns the means to be generous.
If you asked someone for a one thousand pound loan to get through a tough patch, then he turned around and said -"Well sure, just give me a moment while I gather that from people who don't really know I'm taking it from them and probably can't afford it", you'd still be pleased to get it.
But the guy who gave it would still "owe" the others.
Doesn't work like that. He'll never pay it back himself.
Just borrow even more from other people and (as Chesterton said) "Hide the leaf in the forest"...
Pity he's taking it from my kids, your kids and possibly their kids.
It would have been really good if Gord could have said, in a fairly humble way, "We screwed up".
Couple of very noisy pigs dive-bombing overhead.
Happy New Year to everybody else.
Complain about this comment
#370 fairlyopenmind
I was referring to what I read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_atheist
It sounds fairly comprehensive and authoritative, with quite a few Notes, Citations and References. See what you think, after reading it.
As for being Welsh, whoever we are, what's wrong with that? Most peoples don't like to be invaded, conquered, and subjugated. Because it happened a long time ago (circa 700 years, not 1,000) doesn't (perhaps entirely) wipe the injustice from the psyche.
"Come on"
...... don't be patronising.
Why is it that it rankles with so many English people, that we minorities in the UK might not want to live in a society dominated by another culture? Our resources exploited, our language decimated, our history marginalised, even in our schools, and we aren't even considered mature enough to have a legislative assembly.
I don't question your right to have an English monarch, but I'm not English. I want a Welsh head of state. Is that unreasonable? I don't want an Anglo-German prince imposed on my country whose existence continually reminds me that I belong to a once conquered people. I don't want a flag composed of other people's symbols.
"Lines on a map don't necessarily mean anything."
Oh yes they do! Try building a garage six inches over your neighbour's boundary and see what happens, or let him do that to you.
You sound very smug. Lines on a map are extremely pertinent to the Israelis and the Palestinians. Its the Israelis that are drawing them. One of them represents a massive concrete wall around the West Bank and Gaza.
"The sooner the West develops an alternative to oil-based energy, the better."
I'd say the sooner the West leaves people to their own destiny the better. By the West, I mean Britain and the USA, who between them have caused the majority of the world's problems in the last couple of centuries.
Btw, most Americans and Germans think that all of us in these islands are English. So perhaps we can substitute 'England' for 'Britain' in my previous paragraph.
Happy New Year to you and to all!
Complain about this comment
#366 bryant41
You wrote: "I wasn't questioning DM's suitability for the post of FS on the basis of his religious affiliations"
Well, did I misunderstand?
At #318 you said "Brown has appointed David Miliband, who is Jewish, as Foreign Secretary. Since his appointment he hasn't uttered one word of criticism, let alone condemnation, of Israel's disproportionate actions towards the Palestinians or the Lebanese."
I assumed, perhaps wrongly, due to this juxtaposition you were making a connection between Miliband being Jewish and your assertion that he "hasn't uttered one word of criticism". (Actually, he has called for a ceasefire)
If that's not what you meant, why mention his religion at all?
At # 203 you complained "You resort to the same tactics as the Zionists. Any criticism of Israel results in the label 'anti-semitic'"
I didn't bring up his religion. You did (318)! In fact, I have no idea how he would describe himself!
Complain about this comment
# 370 fairlyopenminded
Just for clarity, it wasn't me who used the expression 'Jewish atheist' .
I suppose one can feel culturally Christian, Jewish, Moslem, Hindu etc - but not actually believe in all the trappings of the religion in question. I have no idea what (if any) religion the Foreign Secretary signs up to. My point was to enquire why others felt it necessary to mention it, and how it was relevant to his job.
On the last census I was one of the many who put down Jedi Knight. In fact, it may surprise you that I'm not really from a galaxy far far away - but I just don't think it's any of the government's business!!
You say: "You have to be pretty odd if you fight people who believe in the same God but want to dress him/her/it in specially coloured clothes"
Yes, absolutely correct. Those who think it is God's will to kill others for believing in a different way have missed the whole point!
You say: "You don't have to believe in a God to do something good"
True!
Some might even consider that the real question is not whether we believe in God, but whether God still believes in us. Given the appalling behaviour of humankind, we can only hope...
Happy New Year!
Complain about this comment
#375
Calling for a ceasfire does not amount to criticism of Israel. It does not apportion blame or responsibility. The closest Miliband has come is to say, "Israel must abide by its humanitarian obligations".
He is Jewish, he is FS, and he hasn't condemned Israel's disproportionate actions. His reluctance to do so may or may not be connected with his being Jewish.
Not all Jewish people are Zionists. There are quite a number of orthodox Jews who are opposed to the Zionist philosophy. Some have marched and protested with the 'Stop the War' Coalition and are sickened by the behaviour of Israel towards the Palestinians. Indeed, there are Israelis who feel the same way, to their credit.
The LibDem spokesman, Ed Davey, has condemned Israeli actions as "utterly disproportionate". William Hague has not.
Complain about this comment
# 377 bryant41
So by saying "Calling for a ceasfire does not amount to criticism of Israel" what you really seem to be complaining about is that Miliband is not taking your side!
You say (at # 366) "Often its necessary to take sides, because one side is simply 'wrong'."
So, that would be doubly wrong if it's not the same side as you!! You won't be satisfied unless Miliband entirely blames Israel.
Personally, I interpret Miliband's actions as not wishing to inflame the situation. He acknowledges that the rockets from Hamas have to stop, but at the same time he is calling a halt to the current fighting. He also asks for decent humanitarian standards to be restored in Gaza.
The best way for Gaza to enjoy decent standards is for the establishment of an independent state that is willing to live in peace with its neighbours. The two state solution.
But while Hamas refuses to recognise Israel's right to exist and fires thousands of rockets across the border, the appalling conditions for the population will probably continue. Hamas wants a one-state solution, and that is the whole problem.
As Abraham Lincoln said: "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them". That would be my hope for the future - and actually, I believe it IS possible. But it requires a desire for peace rather than destruction.
You choose to devote your energy to complaining about the existence of Israel.
I choose to urge people to be good neighbours and look for a peaceful settlement.
Complain about this comment
economicallyilliterate post 357
Its clear you didnt read the previous.
I beat phoenix to point out the irony of Hoys quote that money
couldnt buy a nighthood.
With regards to the Christian
spirit of "Phoenixarisenq" who
states that the Palestinians
should NOT RECEIVE MEDICAL
AID.
Obviously the second irony was
lost on you?
Complain about this comment
Distant Traveller
Why dont you go to Gaza and
experience the NEW GHETTO for
yourself.
Check out the lack of sanitation
lack of food
lack of jobs
lack of medical care
ETC ETC
Complain about this comment
IF THE ENEMIES OF iSRAEL CHOOSE TO IGNORE WARNINGS NOT TO INDISCRIMINATELY ATTACK THEIR MORE POWERFUL ADVERSARIES THEN THEY DESERVE TO SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES HORRIFIC THOUGH THEY MAY BE.
Complain about this comment
Nice to see Gordon Browns New Year message in particular the statement:
"the British people and the government had shown their ability to meet similar challenges in the past."
The challenge we now face is one of a bankrupt government courtesy of Mr Brown. I don't think that "ability" is a word that should be linked to this government. How about irresponsible?
Still living on another planet by the looks of it, my bet is Uranus.
Complain about this comment
This tit for tat will continue until common sense prevails. The 2 sides are poles apart and the solution will probably take decades to sort out.
Complain about this comment
Just listened to the Full Version
Of Browns. . . . .!!!!!!
If it wasnt serious it sounds like
WOODY ALLEN doing the script
for "The last days of a Dictator."
Has our PM got Bipolar Disorder??
Complain about this comment
#382 skynine
Sorry but the last thing you want is a Brown Uranus.
Bet this dont get pass the moderators.
Complain about this comment
#374 brynt41 wrote:
#370 fairlyopenmind
"I was referring to what I read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_atheist"
I accept that there is a matriarchal lineage that "makes" someone "Jewish" as soon as they're born. It doesn't make them "believers". If it did, the Russian revolution probably would never have got off the ground... In terms of going through the routines, I could point at quite a lot of CoE ministers who seem to follow the practices, but not necessarily believe in the abstract of a God...
"As for being Welsh, whoever we are, what's wrong with that? Most peoples don't like to be invaded, conquered, and subjugated. Because it happened a long time ago (circa 700 years, not 1,000) doesn't (perhaps entirely) wipe the injustice from the psyche."
I've nothing against the Welsh, Scots, Irish, even English. I think most "English" have got over the fact that the Romans, the Angles, then the Normans (and other assorted Vikings) and even Willem of Orange (who actually brought an army to gain the UK thrown...) have "subjugated" them over time.
Still say it was a Norman dynasty that "did down" the Welsh. In fact, the English court started conversing in English after the Scots had used the language...
"... "Come on"
...... don't be patronising."
Wasn't trying to patronise. Sorry if that was the impression you gained.
"Why is it that it rankles with so many English people, that we minorities in the UK might not want to live in a society dominated by another culture? Our resources exploited, our language decimated, our history marginalised, even in our schools, and we aren't even considered mature enough to have a legislative assembly."
I'm old enough to have been taught British history (which doesn't happen nowadays). So learned about Llywelyn, Glyndwr, Robert the Bruce, William Wallace etc along side "English" people like Boudicca, Alfred etc. (And enjoyed background reading too!)
Don't expect history to be taught in schools. Most children only learn about WWII, maybe WWI - with no idea of the geo-politics of the centuries that allowed such nonsenses to occur.
Funny, but a lot of English clamour (wrongly, in my view) for an English legislative assembly. That went away when a United Kingdom was created. Does that make the English immature, as well?
"I don't question your right to have an English monarch, but I'm not English. I want a Welsh head of state. Is that unreasonable? I don't want an Anglo-German prince imposed on my country whose existence continually reminds me that I belong to a once conquered people. I don't want a flag composed of other people's symbols."
Come on... (Non-patronising!). Henry Tudor was of Welsh descent. His successor - apparently proud of his heritage - rolled Wales and England into a common realm. So if you want to have a pop at the subjugators, check out who enabled it! Far as I can see, the Tudors didn't really cause too much damage to the Welsh.
..."Lines on a map don't necessarily mean anything."
Oh yes they do! Try building a garage six inches over your neighbour's boundary and see what happens, or let him do that to you.
You sound very smug. Lines on a map are extremely pertinent to the Israelis and the Palestinians. Its the Israelis that are drawing them. One of them represents a massive concrete wall around the West Bank and Gaza.
Smug? Moi? (Sorry. French wife - Norman actually - and these things slip out a la Absolutely Fabulous...)
Just saying that "national boundaries/ borders" are simply man-made, imaginary constructs. (OK, an island can have a geographical "edge". But that doesn't stop a relatively small body of land having more than one nation within it. Check out Dominican Republic/Haiti on the island of Hispaniola. Or tiny French/Dutch Saint Martin/Maarten.) Wales has boundaries that fluctuated over the centuries. France, too. For most of history, Italy was a geographic description, not a nation.
Israel seems to have been a rough area, entered by a wandering people way back. Most peoples wandered, way back. Looking for food or refuge. The present Jewish Israel seems to be a bit of land that some people call their "spiritual home". It's not very big.
Fly across Europe and try to imagine any "logical" borders. Impossible. Likewise any other continent.
The Berlin wall was concrete, too. Where is it now?
It just seems so rediculous that Jews, Christians, Muslims squabble over a bit of land, when all of them look at Jerusalem as a focal point of their religions.
"The sooner the West develops an alternative to oil-based energy, the better."
I'd say the sooner the West leaves people to their own destiny the better. By the West, I mean Britain and the USA, who between them have caused the majority of the world's problems in the last couple of centuries."
Sorry. Most Americans could hardly point out England on a map! (Probably true of most UK kids nowadays...)
I think you forget a guy called Napoleon - the original European Union guy... OK by force, with a non-referendum approach.
And a bloke called Hitler. Maybe Stalin, or Mao, who killed off more people than any others in history?
Don't think any of the above led nations called the USA or UK.
The USA was reluctant to get involved in WWI. And very, very reluctant to get dragged into WWII. They didn't start it. They didn't want it. They did help the ruined countries to get back on their feet. It wasn't pure charity, for sure.
Should Israel be more tolerant? Probably. Could the surrounding nations do a bit to help out? Undoubtedly. Will they? Let's hope so.
Should any "people" have a "right" to a piece of land they can administer? No idea. Perhaps we should check with the Iraqi Kurds. Or the Comanche or Apache. What about the Basques?
Fact is that boundaries (like history) are determined by the imposition of physical or mental will. If Wales were to be "independent", it could only do so if it also broke away from the EU. Having an independent legislature is a waste of time if some other "superior" body rains down legislation for fun.
I can't blame "Jews" for trying to sustain a territory. (I guess that, at one point, the US could have ceded part of its territory for that purpose. Or the Jews could have done a "Mormon thing" and carved out a piece for themselves...) Don't blame "Palestinians" for wanting to co-exist in a peaceful manner. Just don't get the notion that people who share a common heritage, common God and many prophets feel the need to beat he stuff out of each other.
Happy New Year to you too!!
Complain about this comment
Once again we can find £7m to give away in so call aid. Both sides can find money for jet fighters, rockets, guns and other weapons so let them find money for aid.
Complain about this comment
"One in ten workers will be out of a job by the end of the worst recession in Britain since the end of the Second World War, business leaders warn today.
A devastating forecast from the British Chambers of Commerce says unemployment will rise to a peak of 3.1million over the next two years, some 10 per cent of the workforce.
It says the economic situation is deteriorating so rapidly that national income will contract by 2.9 per cent in the 15 months to the end of September."
Complain about this comment
"The stock market suffered its worst year in a quarter of a century in 2008 amid the unparalleled turmoil on the world's financial markets.
Around £500billion was wiped off the value of the UK's 100 largest companies as the banking system came to the brink of collapse.
The FTSE 100 lost 31 per cent of its value last year - closing at 4,434.2 - its steepest annual fall since the blue-chip index's inception in 1984."
Complain about this comment
"Sterling is tanking not only against the euro but also against the currencies of the world's most unstable regimes.
The pound fell to another record low against the single currency yesterday, hitting €1.02. It sank to its lowest level since records began in 1990 against a basket of leading currencies.
On top of this, the pound is looking badly tarnished when compared with the currencies of Somalia, Burma, Belarus, Sudan, and a host of other poor and precarious economies.
Since Gordon Brown became Prime Minister in 2007, sterling has lost 24% against the Somalian shilling, 27% against the Burmese Kyat, 25% against Belarus's ruble and more than 20% against the Sudanese pound.
It also lost at least a quarter of its value against the currencies of Yemen, Kazakhstan, Albania, and Libya, according to figures compiled by the Conservatives. One of the biggest declines has been a 38% slump against Moldova's lei.
The dismal figures underline the scale of sterling's rout as confidence in Britain's economy ebbs. The pound has lost a quarter of its value against the euro amid predictions we will suffer the worst contraction of any Group of Seven nation next year.
The declines follow warnings from Bank of England governor Mervyn King in October that the UK could suffer a 'mild form' of the capital flight seen in emerging market crises of the 1990s.
The data is particularly embarrassing for Gordon Brown, who lashed John Major's government in 1992 for presiding over sterling's humiliating ejection from the Exchange Rate Mechanism."
===
"A weak currency is the sign of a weak economy, which is the sign of a weak Government."
Gordon Brown
Complain about this comment
388+389
So what are you saying we should do.
Complain about this comment
brynt41 @374 wrote:
"As for being Welsh, whoever we are, what's wrong with that? Most peoples don't like to be invaded, conquered, and subjugated. Because it happened a long time ago (circa 700 years, not 1,000) doesn't (perhaps entirely) wipe the injustice from the psyche"
Now replace 'the Welsh' with 'the Jews' and update your statement accordingly:
As for being Jewish, whoever [they] are, what's wrong with that? Most peoples don't like to be invaded, conquered, and subjugated. Because it happened a long time ago [circa 2,000 years] doesn't (perhaps entirely) wipe the injustice from the psyche.
Surely what's good for the Welsh goose is good for the Jewish gander....
Complain about this comment
Nick,
I went into the Downing Street site this morning to catch the flavour of the heavily leaked PMs New Year message. I show below just a couple of extracts because I have never read such a load of tosh in my life, it is pure rhetoric :-
We must not just plan for tomorrow. Our task over the next twelve months is to build tomorrow today.
So that Britain creates the thousands of new tech jobs for the digital age now ahead of us, we must build the digital tomorrow, today
So that Britain creates the thousands of green jobs vital for the environment and our economy, we must build that green future of tomorrow, today.
So that we have the best railways, roads and communications for the future, we must build the infrastructure of tomorrow, today.
So we have the right skills for the future we must not let people’s lives waste away in unemployment without trying to help. So that they have the skills our country needs we must build that tomorrow, today.
Now, does everybody get the message, action this day, today, now, immediately. So, why exactly is there this massive public holiday, what exactly are we celebrating. Waht is Gordon Brown doing TODAY, not tomorrow.
I have never felt so depressed, there is no hope with the present incumbant, he has so lost the plot.
I mean look at the first extract and think about what he is actually saying 'our task over the next twelve months is to build tomorrow today'. Seriously fellow Britons, what on earth is the man trying to say, please please I beseech you Gordon, please just go, leave us to our fate.
Complain about this comment
At 11:05am on 01 Jan 2009, maggyisgod wrote:
388+389
So what are you saying we should do.
===
Keep pointing out the failures and hypocrisy of this Government, keep agitating, and vote them out asap.
Complain about this comment
Good get them out fast. Not many Labour voters around again this morning
Complain about this comment
At 12:08pm on 01 Jan 2009, maggyisgod wrote:
Good get them out fast. Not many Labour voters around again this morning
===
As I have pointed out before, the pro-labour blogging falls significantly during the evenings/ weekends/ bank holidays.
Obviously a good proportion of them are paid Labour trolls doing their Master's bidding, but only work 9-5.
Complain about this comment
#392 MaxSceptic
The difference is we remained here, subjugated, exploited etc, and haven't therefore returned to take the land from others.
#386 fairlyopenmind
"Having an independent legislature is a waste of time if some other "superior" body rains down legislation for fun."
So very true.
Ever heard of Poynings Law (1494) by which the English Crown controlled the Irish Parliament?
That just about sums up the Government of Wales Act 2006 by which the 'English' Parliament (cuz that's what it is really, as it has a massive permanent English majority) decides which pathetic little measures the Welsh Assembly can take. A Commons committee, the unelected Lords and the Secretary of State for Wales (who more often than not over the last 30 years hasn't been Welsh) each has a veto over every application the Assembly makes for a legislative order. The Assembly wants Parliament to endorse a legislative order to allow it to pass further measures to protect the Welsh Language, but it seems that the Commons will deny it that power.
Btw, Henry Tudor (Henry VII) was one-quarter Welsh by lineage, he was half-French. Wales wasn't united with England for Wales' benefit but for the crown's administrative and legal convenience.
By today Wales has been twice designated for EU Objective One funding, as one of the poorest regions in Europe, whereas the economy of independent Republic of Ireland (geographically more disadvantaged than Wales) is far stronger. It had the sense and the power to join th Euro at the right time.
Now, thanks to McBroon's mismanagement of the UK economy, we're in a right mess, probably having to enter the Eurozone at a rate which will impoverish us further, making our savings and salaries worth next to nothing in comparison to the rest of the EU.
I don't blame the Zionists, Hertzl and Weizmann for example, for their aspirations of a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
The consequences of realising those aspirations, for the world, the Middle East in general and the Palestinians in particular, have been disastrous, and there's more to come.
I hold Britain and the United States responsible for the mess created.
Israel has to bear much responsibility for the way it has behaved since 1948, but it couldn't have done what it did, or is doing, without outright US economic and military support. The F16 jets, the drones, and the helicopter gunships which are pounding Gaza, killing civilians, are supplied or paid for with US tax dollars.
The truck shown being blown up by an Israeli missile (seen on BBC News), which they claimed was being loaded with rockets, turned out to be gas canisters. Investigators belonging to B'Tselem (the Israeli Organisation for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories) who examined the scene, have confirmed that there was no evidence of there having been rockets on the truck, and that innocent civilians were killed. Had they been rockets, the truck would have been destroyed entirely by the secondary blast, in any case. Several members of the truck owner's family, including his son and a 14 year-old boy were killed.
The UN has been debating the Gaza crisis today and resolutions tabled by Libya and others. It was the UK and the US which barred the Libyan resolution from progressing, because it contained a condemnation of Israel's actions as disporportionate. The US has vetoed every such resolution since Bush entered the WH.
Complain about this comment
What a cheery message from Brown.
"This coming year won't be easy, but I am determined that this government will be the rock of stability and fairness on which the British people can depend," he said.
Code for: You guys will become ever more dependent on the largesse we will dispense, by taking your money away and borrowing your children's future.
"The scale of the challenges we face is matched by the strength of my optimism that the British people can and will rise to meet them.
Code for: I was an optimist while Chancellor and don't think I should part with rose-tinted specs for a while yet. Always believed you "citizens" (actually subjects) would be able to cough up enough to allow me to waste billions.
"Because we're not a do nothing people and we've always risen to every challenge, we can meet the security challenge, the environmental challenge and the enormous economic challenge."
Code for: Look at all the stuff I'm doing. The Tories or Lib Dems aren't doing it. So they are "do-nothing" parties.
Guess what? They can't do anything. They don't control the levers of power. We have never been a "do nothing" people.
Just wish our government would do a lot less. That would save a heck of a lot of disposable income.
Like the stupid QinetiC deal for an outside agency to train the military. Why, for goodness sake, would anyone believe that a research company could train military people better than a military training establishment?
"Today the issues may be different, more complex, more global..."
This guy is supposed to be an historian. Did he never work out that World War II was called that because it was a global conflict?
The current crisis has a simple - not complex - background.
Bankers screwed up. And they were never challenged properly by the regulatory agencies.
Brown, Darling, BoE, the FSA etc did not expect the problem. No wonder.
Nobody bothered to ask whether the bits of paper saying "I'm worth a billion" actually meant or were worth anything. Nobody in government seemed a jot concerned about where tax revenue came from (genuine source) - just that the more they could take, the more they could spend and call "investment".
I just hate the mindset. You know: we're all responsible for this.
Why?
If you spend what you've got, only borrow what you can really afford to pay back even if things go awry, how are you responsible for government or bankers financial idiocies?
If you respect other people and do no harm, then why should you be or feel responsible for some idiot killing someone else?
Problem is when governments get too involved in things that should be managed at a people/community level. Was a time when kids would get together to play soccer anywhere. Why on earth does it make sense for a council to hire someone to encourage street football? (OK. Found that on Daily Mail website. Originally saw it advertised on Guardian pages...)
"The PM said the task for 2009 is to "build tomorrow", with jobs for the digital age and the green agenda, new transport and communications infrastructure and enhanced skills."
Goodness help us all. If Brown's going to pour more money into IT projects, we'll all be told to be at home at a given time to have the chips implanted. And they probably have to be replaced within a couple of months because they didn't quite work first-time-around...
Jobs provided by whom? By government? At a cost to which part of the economy, pray?
Enhanced skills? Dear Lord, one in five kids can't even claim to be literate or numerate.
How can we make any progress with an economically illiterate administration in charge?
I hadn't realised that ostriches were natives of Fife.
Complain about this comment
The Spook who sat by the door
The weapon - a united Black America.
Will cause many readers great annoyance - and what more can a writer ask than that.
Complain about this comment
It would have been better if the guy had said "We need to put right the mistakes of yesterday".
No company goes into a project expecting to build for today. Nor a family, or any individual. Because the next morning, it's yesterday.
What a load of old tripe. (My old man would have said "Absolute piffle"!)
Lord Mandelson is obviously back.
Complain about this comment
OMG Kikki - put that bottle down!
Complain about this comment
Yellowbelly. You are dead right. One of them is not even a British citizen - so how the hell can they comment on life here?
Bet this gets moderated, it usually does.
Complain about this comment
brynt41 @379 wrote:
The difference is we remained here, subjugated, exploited etc, and haven't therefore returned to take the land from others.
Then who dispossessed the original inhabitants of New South Wales? ;-)
Also
"It was the UK and the US which barred the Libyan resolution from progressing, because it contained a condemnation of Israel's actions as disporportionate."
Actually, the US and the UK barred the Libyan and (Egyptian) resolution because it failed to call upon Hamas to cease it rocket attacks on Israel. Do check your facts.
Complain about this comment
Max, with regard to the Jewish immigrants here, I can say it did cause concern but nothing like what is happening now. Shall I tell you why, (you should already know but here goes anyway):
The Jewish who fled nazi Germany were relieved and grateful to be able to settle here. Many of them have told me they all agreed between themselves that they would be respectful to their host country, abide by its laws and keep its values and traditions. They usually have kept their homes and families respectable and whilst keeping close in their communities have also integrated into Britain in an admirable way.
The village of Radlett in Herts. is a case in point. They have kept it English, speak English properly (as well as Hebrew) and still go to synagogue (not sure of spelling!). Usually marry "in" as opposed to other religions etc. BUT they are mostly an asset to this country not a hindrance.
They are criticised and disliked for being pushy sometimes but that is not a huge issue compared with the present flood of other immigrants, their knife crime, anti social habits, hatred of the west etc.
Some of this present flood have spoilt it for those coming in with skills, manners, etc. as they are all tarred with the same brush.
We all know some who are great - we have a wonderful muslim dentist and a wonderful zoroastrian aromatherapist for our disabled son, but they are appalled at the lack of control of the others coming in. In fact they say "you only have yourselves to blame". There you have it. But I blame Brown/Blair.
Complain about this comment
brynt41
Read lots of history. Don't like many things that happened. Just get on with it.
I don't really give a stuff if the Romans, Vikings, whoever did bad stuff a long time ago. I can't change it. Some things turn out well. The bad bits we all have to fight to turn towards a better situation.
Bit late to undo the selling of slaves by black Africans to the wicked English. (That doesn't get taught, does it?) Did anyone really belive that English/Welsh/Scots/ French/Spanish - whoever - convinced those people they were just being offered a cruise? Or that they could actually grab a few million folk after stepping off a boat into a hostile geographical environment?
I quite like a political environment within which some account is taken of "local" issues. That's always easier when there are some reasonably accepted common heritage.
The USA celebrates Independence Day. In fact only a thin sliver of the Atlantic coastline was "British". So the guys in most of the USA were only "independent" later, either by purchase (Louisianna - actually a huge swathe of mid-America, and Alaska) or conquest (most of the South-West and far West wrested from Mexico).
I don't like the ME situation. You seem to feel a connection between the down-trodden Welsh and the Palestinians. Just suppose the English/Normans had pushed the Welsh into the sea, or just eliminated the majority. They could have done. Wouldn't you have felt a tug to re-create a Welsh homeland?
Doesn't that echo a tiny bit with the situation of a Jewish people who got a lot of bad press centuries ago?
Doesn't mean they should oppress others. I'd agree on that. And fully accept that their power is US supported.
So who should swallow the land? Jordan? Syria? Egypt? There's pretty slim hope that any worthwhile "independence" would happen. It could be a "simple" political hegemony, with a token government.
You want a Free Wales. Fine by me. Except I wouldn't want to pay for you via the EU.
Complain about this comment
353 & 355 roll on
name-calling is hardly a good substitute for reasoned argument.
Which bit of my posts do you disagree with, apart from the inescapable conclusion that an interventionist government is what we need at the moment?
Complain about this comment
406 MunichMadrid7980
Do you support a football team from the Sherwood area by any chance?
Complain about this comment
flamepatricia @404,
England has long been a successful melting pot of many nations - and even religions - so long as these nations and religions were willing to integrate.
I believe that Jews have been in England ever since Cromwell allowed them back in. There were Jews in England before then, but after a series of anti-semitic massacres at York and elsewhere, Edward I expelled them. (BTW Edward I also 'hammered' the Scots and built castles all over Wales to keep the Welsh down, though as the ardent nationalism of bryn41 above proves, he didn't do a thorough job).
The main reason why Jews have integrated well (for the most part - I except the ultra-orthodox who are considered 'weird' even by the majority of Israelis) in Britain, is because Judaism is not - unlike Islam - a prosetylising religion. It accepts few converts (and makes it quite difficult even for those determined to convert).
The second reason is because many Jews see religion and religious identity as separate to secular matters such as State and temporal rule (law of the land). As such they were influential in, and benefited from, European enlightenment.
This separation of Church and state is also long accepted in Christianity. Islam, however, does not recognise any separation between divine and temporal law.
Complain about this comment
fairlyopenmind @405 wrote:
"Just suppose the English/Normans had pushed the Welsh into the sea.... "
Confirming that there is no truth in the nasty rumour that the Irish are really just Welshmen who could swim... ;-)
Complain about this comment
Welcome 2009 - although the latest news is NOT good. Heard that Gordon's goons have instituted new laws. The Isle of Man is now to be known as the Isle of Person (Harman wanted Isle of Woman). The Isle of Wight is to be The Isle of Multicolour.
Complain about this comment
#405 fairlyopenmind wrote:
"You want a Free Wales. Fine by me. Except I wouldn't want to pay for you via the EU."
You won't be paying for anything through the EU or anything else, because McBroon has bankrupted the UK. And who wants the British pound anyway? The rest of the world doesn't want to know.
If Wales is doing so well because of English largesse, why is Wales relatively so poor? We can do without that kind of assistance. Its soooo patronising.
Perhaps we should charge you the economic price for the water you drink, or the green energy produced by the disproportionate number of massive wind turbines the UK government is planting all over Wales.
The UK's indebtedness is already legendary. And that's despite massive oil revenues over 40 years which should have belonged to the Scots by right.
England hasn't got a very good economic record. Its greatest success has been in finance, the City of London, which grew fat on lending, borrowing, dealing, and insuring funds, commodities and property which it didn't own or produce - a bloated bubble which has burst. It created a few thousand fat cats who got paid huge bonuses for what turned out to be legalised theft - for lack of regulation by the useless and/or corrupt politicians spawned by the unwritten constitution of this pathetic nation state, which is long past its sell-by date.
I hope the Scots get their independence soon, and will pave the way for the rest of us to follow.
Complain about this comment
#410
.....worse to come: Manchester United is to be Personchester United, and even the novel "Mansfield House" is to be renamed "Personsfield House". I wonder if the Man from the Manse will then be called The Person from the Personse!
Complain about this comment
Nick,
I wonder when you will return to your blog. Are you having a great Christmas break, or should we call it winterfestival.
Complain about this comment
412
surely it would be juvenile male person of the personse?
what about all the jokes that start: and english person an irishperson and a scotsperson... but if you said
a englishwoman, a scotswoman and an irishwoman,
there would be hell to pay!
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
flamepatricia @415,
I was a Londoner (south-west) for over 20 years. I do, however, know the areas you refer to.
Complain about this comment
414. runskippyrun wrote:
Agree, there would be a riot.
What about PC theatrical plays?
A Person For All Seasons
The Person From The Personcha
Two Gentlepersons From Verona
The Person Who Would Be King
Person and Superperson
Then famous songs?
Old Person River
The Person I Love
My Old Person's a Dustperson
What a desperate way to start 2009!
Complain about this comment
Don't forget Golders Green, Hendon, Finchley, Jewelry, Bagel shops, Tottenham Hotspur football fans
Complain about this comment
At 5:58pm on 01 Jan 2009, phoenixarisenq wrote:
414. runskippyrun wrote:
Agree, there would be a riot.
What about PC theatrical plays?
A Person For All Seasons
The Person From The Personcha
Two Gentlepersons From Verona
The Person Who Would Be King
Person and Superperson
===
Sorry, phoenixarisenq, but expect a call from (make a) Quick, Bob and his mates at the Met;
The Person Who Would Be King is wrong on so many counts, elitist, monarchist, aspirationalist, and worst of all, SEXIST!
We expect, nay demand, an immediate retraction and apology.
Complain about this comment