Tensions arise over Zimbabwe crisis
The crisis in Zimbabwe is causing real tension in Whitehall. This week the home secretary warned the cabinet of a possible mass influx of refugees, many travelling on false papers. And she warned of a growing risk of the spread of cholera from the region.
Some in the Foreign Office regard such talk as an attempt to justify tougher border controls to make it even harder for refugees to make it to the UK from Zimbabwe.
Currently any Zimbabwean needs a visa to travel to the UK. Those however who come from South Africa do not. The result is that many refugees flee over the border and buy false papers before making their way to Britain.
The Home Office wants to see the introduction of visa restrictions for all countries in the region, the Foreign Office does not.
There's also a debate going on about what to do about thousands of Zimbabweans who are in limbo here. They have not been granted asylum and therefore cannot legally work or claim benefits but the government is unwilling to send them home.
The debate in each case is about the moral imperative to help those fleeing the Mugabe regime, poverty and disease and the danger of encouraging more from Zimbabwe to stay here and make their way here at an unacceptably high cost to the tax payer.
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We cannot abandon the Zimbabeans. We owe them a moral debt, and quite frankly this is a tragedy. However, this country cannot take all those who need to get out, and therefore it is also a world problem.
PS. Who woke Nick up at this late hour - 11.33PM. My last post got moderated for daring to suggest that he was now working on a Friday!!
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Oh dear!
Perhaps another crisis that our esteemed Prime Minister can fix immediately, and save the world all over again!
As if the nations of Africa haven't got enough to deal with, Cholera strikes.
And we in 'affluent' countries have to debate what to do while people die?
Nothing new there then!
How about a massive vaccination of the population?
But then, isn't cholera spread through water (if I remember my studies of Tchaikovsky correctly). If that's the case, there isn't a whole lot for us to worry about.
Surely, the debate should be about fixing the problems over there? Not worrying about closing our borders to those in desperate need of help.
A strange thing to appear on your blog Nick - are you getting dizzy with all the comments on your other blogs?
Getting too hot for you so time to try some diversionary tactics?
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As long as Zimbabwe is led by a despot it will be a source of refugees. How long will the world stand by and let this Mugabe destroy a nation?
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Nick,
surely Gordon Brown must turn to the European Union and say that it really is time for some action to be taken. It must be time for regime change in Zimbabwe.
I would have thought that Cholera was just as bad a threat as Weapons of Mass Destruction. Trouble is Zimbabwe has no oil.
What might actually happen though is that Zanulabour will take action to prevent an influx of asylum seekers. As you know I have always thought of Gordon Brown as a one trick pony. This is serious and must be resolved. It is totally unacceptable.
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Zimbabwe tragedy is all about ‘rich nations’ abandoning/refusing to invest/help a nation that has ‘the audacity’ to call its own tune against potential first-world investors which would prefer to set the percentage stakes to their own anti-Zimbabwe advantage.
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@#1 Have I missed something? What do we owe Zimbabwe? They have a democratically elected leader (well he was originally) and, when push comes to shove, in a democracy you have to live with what you choose, just like in the UK.
@#3 Forever quite frankly. I think perhaps we're finally starting to get the idea that we don't have to make all of the world's problems our own and doing so ultimately just turns us into a target. Long may this attitude continue as far as I'm concerned.
@#4 Just thought that I'd flag it up because I haven't seen that sort of half-witted use of the word nazi in a fair while. Oh well, had to happen sooner or later. Typical commie.
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It is patiently obvious yet again that Jacquie Smith does not really have a clue, and any morals or intellectual abilities she once had to assess and make the best decisions for the people of this country, and the world, have disappeared, to be replaced by political prejudice.
Instead of trying to fix the mess that we British have allowed to flourish in Zimbabwe, and save thousands of peoples of lives, she instead wants to condemn them to death by forcing them to stay in Zimbabwe, whilst refusing to have the backbone to stand up to Robert Mugabe. Can she not see that this country has a moral duty to protect these people instead of yet again producing alarmist language that will affect the government's, and the British people's, world view for years to come?
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Bad news for those who want a military invasion of Zimbabwe, it is too far from the sea - the aircraft carrier borne Harriers cannot reach it. Nor do the neighbouring countries do not want to house the British and/or American military bases such an invasion would need.
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Jeez! Nick, fly swatting again, I suspect your in real trouble now for this latest leak!
Who did give you this story? although not new and angle you suggest is a degree short in reality?
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The Zimbabwe leader's name "Robert"...
represents "Bright Fame"?
I should know...I own the exact same illustrious Christian name; though; I could never be so famous!
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Where is Peter Hain? He helped turn prosperous Rhodesia into disastrous Zim. Well, he is here, in the UK, living off the taxpayer. Of course he is. Wouldn't do to actually live in the shambles he created for others. And the 'saintly' Mandela..?
Yeah right! Always the same isn't it.
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This is the first sensible thing Smith has said!
It would also seem that the world has not learned from Germany's mistake of the '30s! Allow a vicious thug to maintain his grip on power whilst engaged in mass murder. Perhaps what should have been done to Hitler should be done to Mugabe - take him out - permanently! But hey. Zim is poor, black (in the main) & has no oil - so all that will happen is a lot of hand wringing!
2 million years of evolution slams into full reverse!
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More dithering from the government,just stop all flights from Southern Africa into the country until SA can guarantee the validity of the documents travellers hold.
South Africa will be outraged of course , but its within the governments remit to do this.
If we dont we end up with a situation like we have with France where illegals are encouraged to go to England because it saves them having problems.
People cannot keep on blaming the UK for Zimbabwe's problems blithely ignoring the obvious, to point the finger of blame at us.
Zimbabwe have at this time one major problem.
When the people of Zimbabwe remove him they will find many of their problems will be eased over night.Other problems will emerge but its one step at a time for the people there.
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Yes send "SuperGordon" there he is bound to have the answer but no troops. It's an African problem anyway so it's really up to them to sort it out. If we help too much Africa is bound to call us Imperialists.
We have suggested to Africa what to do and been called Imperialists, we pour simple aid and money and charity workers in and the Africans take it and never get out of the hole.
Yes we caused the problem a century ago but are we always going to have to pay for past history like slavery etc etc. Feeling we have to pay for long passed moral mistakes is just a form of moral blackmail (no pun intended.
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Lets see, 7-8 months down the road, when we have approx 300,000 further immigrants from Zimbabwe and other African nations to deal with the government will announce a plan to stop them coming.
The people of Zimbabwe don't want to leave a country they know was once a shining example in Africa.
They want there homes & jobs back.
They want their country back as it was before Mugabe went on the rampage.
They want the rest of the world to remove a political party run by an old man who basically has no control and is being used like a puppet by more sinister people within his party.
Once again it will be, let the horse bolt and then close the door from this pathetic government and Prime Minister
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It's a sad fact that the only language these dictators really understand is the language of force. Gordon Brown and David Milliband pontificating in the background will have no effect whatsoever. They are merely repeating what we and the rest of The World know already. It's not rocket science after all.
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This just goes to show the madness of Government:
Of all the people from outside the country arriving here, surely people from Zimbabwe are the MOST deserving. I would much rather have these almost entirely deserving refugees that the economic migrants claiming to be victims of this or that.
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#19:
Sorry. should have read NR's blog more carefully. Totally off topic! Just ignore what I said.
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for years Gordon brown said very little about the sad state of affairs in Zimbabwe....then Condeleeza Rice stood up to be counted and GB immediately jumped on the passing bandwagon and called for international action....shame on you Gordon.
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Dear Nick
Zimbabwe, was allowed by the Afiran Union to fall apart, Politiciqans in Africa could not have cared less about what happened to the people ther, Just look at the Rwandan Business and Genocide,
The rest of the world also sat back and did nothing Including Gordon Brown, and the British Governemnt.
NOW Britain is expected to House and look after and deal with a possible dangerous medical condition called Cholora.
What the British People do not Know is that there are 3,000,000 UK pass port Holders in Africa who also have the right to come to Briatin, as well Miliions from the European Union, The Immigration Policy in this country has created a serious problem, for the future, and 3,000,000 SOuth Africans are going to severely add to Britains mounting Multi culturism and the problems it causes.
ALL IMMIGRATION MUST STOP.
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what the hell is the problem with the African leaders and the u.n regards to Zimbabwe? Mugabe is totaly out of control & MUST be removed hes a total mad man, the poor people of the country should be given automatic entry to the uk the same as residents of iraq, we the west have screwed there lifes up enough lets pay back some humanity.
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I am horrified that senior politicians feel able to make comments like this. What is Jacqui Smith really trying to say? That African nationals coming here may a) be 'pretend' Zimbabwean refugees and b) spread disease? Surely this is nothing but extremely thinly disguised racism and anti-immigrant sentiment. Whether or not this is in order to win some sort of internal Home Office/Foreign Office battle, I find it hard to believe that it could be acceptable for a senior member of a Labour (or any other) government to promote such inflammatory and factually inaccurate views. The UK receives a tiny proportion of the world's refugees. Millions of Zimbabweans have fled their country, but the huge majority have only made it over the border to South Africa and could never afford or even wish to come to the UK. Moreover, as cholera is water-born and the UK does have a pretty well-functioning public sanitation system, I find it highly unlikely that someone arriving here with cholera would pose a significant public health risk. Instead of talking such nonsense, Jacqui Smith should be spending her time ensuring that her employees are dealing with asylum claimants from Zimbabwe who are already here as quickly and fairly as possible whilst working with her Foreign Office colleagues to offer assistance to the governments who really face a 'refugee problem' i.e. South Africa & Botswana.
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It always AMAZING me how Zimbawe is
kept on the back burner to bring to the fore
at a convenient MOMENT.
THIS NONSENSE HAS GONE ON FOR A
DECADE PLUS.
Any DECENT UK government would have
sorted IT.
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24 stevefiji
In what way has the west screwed up zimbabwe. At the point of independence, which is what they wanted, the country was in decent shape. I'm a little fed up of hearing about the white mans burden. Africa does not even want the white man interfering and wants to sort it out alone. The problem is they have failed so far. But their position also inhibits the UN. The only acceptable solution in Africa is a black one, white intervention would open up a whole new can of worms.
The issue of individuals seeking to come here is a different matter when they are under the threat of death.
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Well, it seems that not a lot of support for Brown was forthcoming on the previous posting. Wonder if this odd little insertion will lead to more support for the caring Great Leader?
Problem with so many political leaders is an intellectual isolation which tends to induce arrogance.
On paper, Mugabe has a level (and range) of education that makes Brown look like a pygmy.
But he's surrounded himself by cronies / dependents - many with a similar "intellectual" rather than "practical" background. (Sounds familiar?)
Of course Mugabe should go. Bush and Blair toppled two Middle East governments (and the USA and Europe broke up Serbia and encouraged the disintegration of the USSR), so we - the "West" - have a track record of imposing change.
But we can't do it in Africa, for historical and highly practical reasons.
The US supported the Taleban when they wanted Russia out of Afghanistan. (Actually supported Saddam in the wasteful war with Iran...) But didn't like the outcome in either case.
And they haven't been too happy with Putin, either. Just goes to show that you have to be careful what you wish for...
Of curse we should try to help the Zimbabwean people. If that means whacking visa controls on every country in the area, fair enough. Can't see how that's going to help the people suffering. They don't want to be here - they want to be in a safe and economically sane country... Their own.
Maybe a special fund to buy the farms back from Mugabe's cronies, vest their ownership in charitable foundation, send in agricultural specialists to develop local talent.
The buy-back could be made contingent on "cronies" retiring from politics.
Maybe that would clear the way for a new generation of government in Zimbabwe?
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Haven't we already got enough problems of our own to get on with? There's a basic premise in international diplomacy, attend to your own bean field and don't mess with the neighbours. In this instance, that means Zimbabwe's internal affairs are its internal affairs, and if the population can't fend for itself, that's their tough turkey. It's a lesson we should take to heart ourselves, as we may need to fend for ourselves in not dissimilar circumstances the way things are going, and the way this is being managed in the Home Office, to add yet more draconian powers to an already unacceptably stuffed portfolio of the same, as evinced by this week's Council of Europe decision on DNA storage. I note nothing has been announced on that yet, in passing, the Home Secretary's too busy interfering with the Foreign Office to actually do her job right.
The Home Office has an easy solution, simply quarantine the area on medical grounds. She has adequate powers to do that so why's she messing with another department's policies outside of her remit? She might have a case if her own house was in order, but it obviously isn't: David Davis confirmed the suspicion I posted here about a week ago, the other dossiers are so explosive it would bring not merely Jacqui Smith down, but HMG and possibly even parliamentary democracy as well. That's what the Green raid was about, therefore, trying to find out exactly how many damoclean swords were hanging over their heads. It sounds as if it's about sixteen, which must leave the Home Secretary rather sleepless at night - she certainly looks rather haggard these days, and it may well be affecting her judgment.
Time for yet another new broom from the Old Curiosity Shop that's the ranks of Labour potential ministers...
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Whilst I disagree with what freecornwall 23 has to say in other threads, I do think what is saying has merit.
It is an African problem and must be solved by African politicians. We have enough enemies and are not the world's policeman, mind you Flash Gordon in his mission might think so.
The time has come for us to put up the shutters to immigration from whatever country. Give an amnesty to all the illegal immigrants and close the doors.
The first rule of survival is don't put yourself in a position of danger to endanger either yourself or others. We are fighting an economic battle and my belief is unemployment will be at 3 million some time next year and borrowing vast amounts to survive.
Zimbabwe, we have to be humane and do what we can to help the people and aid must be given when they and Africa asks.
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It all goes to show what a complete farce the asylum system is and how it completely fails genuine refugees. It is a pity our politicians are such incapable hypocrites. The asylum system must be scrapped and then be replaced with a system which looks after the welfare of genuine refugees. It is absurd for Zimbabweans to attempt to reach Britain - only the fit and relatively wealthy can make such an arduous journey. There should be a proper mechanism in place, run via the UN, to provide proper care and treatment for refugees in the regions where they are displaced. For Zimbabweans, this would be in the border regions of South Africa and Mozambique.
The current asylum system is useless and is exploited by economic migrants and people traffickers, causing community and racial tensions in the countries people claim asylum in. It must be scrapped - it is no longer appropriate in today's world of mass transit.
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Now, if you really must deal with Mugabe, the only realistic way will be to coax him out of the country and hope an accident befalls him en route - it's the way most African Traditional Heads of State meet their ends these days, I observe.
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re stevefiji @24:
In what way did WE screw the Zimbabweans' lives up? From my (admittedly somewhat hazy) recollection, Zimbabwe has been an independent state for a few years now, with Mugabe - an elected leader - in charge and running the country.
All learned opinion in the world outside Zimbabwe's borders - apart from a few sycophants and schemers here and there - says that if anyone's screwed up the Zimbabweans' lives, it's Mugabe.
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10. Well said. As the neighbouring countries won't support the use of force then there is no viable military option unless you are prepared to force your way through a neighbouring state, Mozambique would be the obvious choice, and then attack Zimbabwe. Only the Americans have that sort of capability. If you got a force into place the hostilities would be over very quickly, the Zimbabwean military has been run down by Mugabe with only elite units left fully equipped to protect him and his cronies. The rest are good at beating up women and children, and just like the Iraqis in 1991, if confronted with a proper military opponent they'll either surrender or run. The real problem will be trying to impose order in the aftermath, i.e. Iraq 2003. No western government will want to take on that challenge. And as for the Africans? No chance, they're all a nice cosy cabal anxious to shield each other.
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I fear it's a continuation in another form of the New Labour philosophy of people as only being worthwhile if they are 'economically productive units'.
That's how many of the unemployed are treated (or mistreated), extending working age is encouraged whatever your personal circumstances, now it is being extended to immigration.
No matter the moral case for allowing access, what matters is if you can work cheaply in an area the economy needs support in you are regarded as 'useful' and allowed in, but if you are fleeing disease, political oppression or natural disaster, there's no profit in you so no reason to allow entry.
The true irony - this policy is designed by people who have never been anything other than a professional politician, have never been of any productive value to any country, and think they understand the lives of people when in fact their closest contact with reality was reading a report someone else wrote them about it.
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I have English relatives in South Africa, one has been there forty years. The Zims people are causing riots over there as the South Africans say the Zims refugees are taking their jobs.
Look, Gordon and Nu Labour should stop trying to save the world and look after the indigineous population here.
If this government really does want to carry out their typically liberalist looney lefty ideals then why not get hostels, training and education set up OVER THERE.
Also, why is it that these people can cross ten countries to get here, not staying in any of them, to get to thie "land of milk and honey" ?
Some of my English relatives in South Africa are having a hard time getting citizenship and although they are well heeled and employ blacks there have themselves threatened with deportation back here!
Do you know, if you wish to leave here and settle there you first have to satisfy the authorities there that your income must be at least £2000 sterling per calendar month? And that is ONE person, it's double for a couple.
Wake up Foreign Office, get out of your cloistered environment and ask the real people who are affected instead of trying to give yourselves the feel good factor at Christmas. Self gratification - mad.
Mad as Mad Bob.
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Man from Milan post6
HEY THERE a compliment????
GUESS you read them then.
Zimbabwe should be dealt with NOT
played with by GORDY.
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The problem is our politicians suffer from moral cowardice - they won't speak out truthfully and take the actions which are necessary. It is clear the asylum system set up after WWII is no longer fit for purpose and must be scrapped. It is abused by those healthy enough and wealthy enough to make their way across continents to claim it. Scrap the stupid asylum system and replace it with a well thought out, international agreement on how to support genuine refugees from countries like Somalia, Zimbabwe, the Sudan and other basket cases.
As for Zimbabwe, Zimbabweans have been betrayed not only by their own government, but by South Africa, the regional power which could have put an end to Mugabe's misrule years ago!
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Surely this is a problem that started in America?
For sure it'll be somebody else's problem.
The main problem with Zimbabwe (as with Afghanistan) is that it doesn't have a coast. So in order to 'do something' you have to get the agreement of one of its neighbours.
Since South Africa has obviously got plans (actually happening as we speak) to emulate the exciting land-redistribution policy of Comrade Bob and no other African country wants to take on the mantle of being an 'Uncle Tom' nation then Mugabe can do what he likes.
So he does.
I blame this Labour government. Claire Short particularly.
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Listen, I am not going to be popular for saying this but my English relatives and relatives of our friends too who have been in SA for years, ALL say SA was better under apartheid.
Yes, it was! Now they have to have electric gates around their houses, their car windows are smashed at the robots (traffic lights in our language), they have a real problem with violence from the local tribes.
Zims. was better with Smith when it was Rhodesia; as Desmond Tutu said "the bread basket of Africa".
Mad Bob won't give up till he dies - he is Chief of a Tribe and he's there for life. Mad Bob's cousin is married to Mugabe. We don't know the half of it.
Perhaps the Foreign Office has some hang ups about our Colonial Days. Forget it. Work from NOW.
Do we want more lawless immigrants with weapons, imported diseases, strange rituals, totally out for themselves with no interest in us, our laws or our culture - look at the Somalians here!
As a staunch Conservative I hate to say it but for once Jacqui Smith is my hero! Hang on in there Jacqui.
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The Zimbabweans wanted rid of white rule, they wanted Mugabe.
They were warned that they would get 'one man, one vote', once.
They have got all that they wanted. We owe them nothing.
The ones who are already here should be sent straight back as a simple message to the rest, 'it's your mess, you sort it out'.
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I agree with the comment that Jacqui Smith is just being alarmist. Zimbabweans have been jumping ship for years now because of the political impasse that has led to the country economic downfall, not cholera or even HIV which has taken more lives than cholera!
The use of fake documentation is hardly a Zimbabwean problem. Many people from different countries all over the world have been trying this since time immemorial, and I believe its wrong to try and single out Zimbabweans for this, just because there has been cholera. Given the new developments in biometric passports and checks, certainly a few numbers dare to try using fake documentation now and their chances of getting through limited.
A few days ago I watched a programme on CNN on how the world ignored atrocities in Bosnia, Rwanda and Darfur. Thousands had to die brutally before the world leaders had the guts to do something about it. How many have to die before Zimbabwe gets intervention?
The time for dialogue has long expired, is it going to take another 5 years for the world to see that?!
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Zimbabwe wanted independence, they fought for it & now they have it !
no longer our problem !
South Africa supported butcher bob because he was a liberation fighter (terrorist ?), they can now pick up the pieces !
but to the loony left it must be the white man's fault !
none of my money to Africa please !
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#29
I'm a little fed up of hearing about the white mans burden. Africa does not even want the white man interfering and wants to sort it out alone.
Meanwhile the Chinese are quietly cleaning up in Africa. They're all over Sudan and Zimbabwe and Zambia and any other number of African nations securing their oil and natural resources.
In another generation the Africans will have a new colonial master.
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Our responsibilities for Zimbabwe stopped when Harold Wilson destroyed the legal government and handed the country over to a dictator. It is Africa's problem, not ours. This country is already stretched to the limit with immigrants from all the countries of Africa and a line must be drawn somewhere. Our own people must now come first, charity is all very well but the crass stupidity of allowing uncontrolled immigration is not charity , it is national suicide.
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The only way Zimbabwe is going to recover is if there is a revolution.
Western intervention is not the answer. Havent we learned anything from Iraq and Afghan?
Freedom from tyranny and oppression comes at a price. Considering how much of an electoral mandate Morgan Tsvangeri had, do we hear anything of what the MDC is either working towards or has acheived?
Lets also keep things in perspective. Whilst Cholera is an insidious disease that is both treatable and preventable, Africa as a continent has far more pressing medical problems than a localised outbreak of Cholera, specifically rampant HIV/AIDS, Malaria and the (thankfully less rampant)presence of ebola.
These diseases are killing people in their thousands, tens of thousands.
And a note for those pressing for regime change... It wouldnt matter if they had oil or not. The UK does not have the capability to project power that deep into Africa nor the numbers of troops or the logistical ability to achieve it.
Aint gonna happen.
If Brown volunteers our troops for an African mission such as this, he will be making an enormous mistake.
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Nick,
Zimbabwe............ if there was ever a case for UN intervention - then this was it.
Our failed Iraq policy and planning means we don't have the resources or the moral respect from others to be able to step in.
Delaying the Aircraft carriers, in favour of wally projects like ID cards, means that we continue to degrade our ability to help others around the world.
Incidently ...... nice "resisting" of other news stories. Surely it is a remarkable political story that other Germans have come out to rubbish Brown's 'spin' from yesterday and to use the phrase 'failure of Labour policy'?
"Peer Steinbrück's comments have nothing whatsoever to do with internal German politics as Prime Minister Brown has suggested. In questioning the British Government's approach, Peer Steinbrück is exactly expressing the views of the German Grand Coalition. After years of lecturing us on how we need to share in the gains of uncontrolled financial markets, the Labour politicians can't now expect us to share in it's losses. The tremendous amount of debt being offered by Britain shows a complete failure of Labour policy."
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The trouble with rights of asylum seekers, is like the trouble with a fully convertible currency on the gold standard.
It only works so long as most people don't queue up and demand their rights. Just suppose that 5% of the Chinese were dissidents wanted to come to the UK?
In practice, asylum in Britain is limited to those Zimbabweans who can afford an air ticket. The big problem now is with the neighbours. They certainly could invade Zimbabwe, and should do so. If not, let them deal with the refugees. Of course, adult able bodied refugees could be armed to help liberate their own country? Let's face it, in the UK our forbears fought for their own (and our) freedoms.
The UK no longer does have a moral responsibility. Zimbabwe became independent a quarter of a century ago. It seemed to work reasonably well for a while, but Mugabe was never a Mandela unfortunately. The responsibility now rests with those neighbours who have sustained him in power for too long. I appreciate that it is difficult for them to accommodate the refugees, but they should either do so, or remove the cause of the problem. I'm sure they would get UN backing and help.
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Zimbabwe is a tragic story. When I last visited 10 years ago, it was one of the best run, prosperous countries in Africa. British trained, naturally.
Britain was instrumental in removing the illegal white minority Smith government and holding free and fair democratic elections in which Mugabe was elected back in 1981(?). We should be proud of our role in establishing this black democracy.
The decline began when Mugabe kicked out the white farmers, using blatantly racist propaganda and tactics, because he was worried they were supporting the opposition MDC, as is their right under a democracy. Britain has spoken out time and again against this racism and the wholesale destruction of the economy which has resulted. Despite this, we remain one of Zim's largest aid donors.
But it is no longer our right or role to act: independence means just that. To think otherwise is sheer arrogance. We (and they) can't have it both ways. We have no strategic interest at stake; anything we do would just be seen as colonialist/racist; we don't even have the power to act even if we wanted to.
It's up to those with a strategic interest, ie Zim's neighbours, to act.
Re the issue of refuguees: there are 20+ million Zimbabweans. We can't fit them all into our already crowded little island. Frankly, right now, we can't afford to either.
The best places anyway for the refugees are Zim's neighbouring countries: they are culturally and geographically much better placed to help than we are. We can help more people by providing aid and support locally than we can by accepting a very lucky few.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
okay, to be fair, one or two (probably one) person in the FO has said to you that "we think this is trying to justify tougher .... "
There, that has brought it back down to the insignificant size that it should be.
She has made a good point, although I doubt she thinks there will be a massive wave of refugees desperately gambling their future on forged papers, but their could be some.
If they have cholera, the chances are they will be too sick to travel anywhere.
Cholera is rarely spread from person to person, though this can happen. The reason it spreads so fast in refugee camps is that the bacteria which infests what is known as "rice water stool" gets into the ground water supply, potentially infecting everyone.
The Home Secretary's warning is a useful reminder that we need to get out their, get hold of the refugees and get them into camps where hygiene is the paramount consideration. This will help protect them against the spread and allow the rapid treatment of those who are ill - cholera can kill within hours!
But this only helps those who are coming out of Zimbabwe. With Mugabe going into denial mode "cholera no longer exists" (Bloomberg), the worry is that it will be left uncontrolled in Zimbabwe itself. despite the increased aid from the US
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Nick Robinson, I find your comments about Zimbabweans buying passports in South Africa and coming to Britain both stupid and outrageous! So this poor guy is dying from cholera, possibly hasnt worked in years, yet he has enough Zim dollars to convert into rands buy a passport buy a ticket and Bob's your uncle he's at Heathrow claiming asylum and begging to be allowed to be homeless in London.
As for Zimbabweans staying in England who are not "entitled to claim benefits or work" I quote. How can these same people then stay here or make their way here at an unacceptably high cost to the tax payer!?
Xenophobic racists like you are no different from Robert Mugabe, get your facts right. The majority of Zimbabweans in this country are hard working and law abiding and we cost taxpayers nothing because we pay taxes too!
Find something else to write about baldy!
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Here is Gordon Brown's Christmas card for this year - I suspect Mugabe isn't on his Christmas list:
Merry Christmas!
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I EXPECT THE USUAL STREAM OF BELLIGERENT
COMMENTS BY ALEXANDERCURZON, KINGSTON
UPON THAMES OWN 'DRAGON', ALL SHOUTED
OUT IN CAPS.
ISN'T IT TIME THE BBC ENFORCES SOME FORM
Of NETIQUETTE, LIKE MANY OTHER SITES DO?
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Shame that Mugabe hasn't got any oil. Sorry, I meant Weapons of Mass Destruction pointed at us on a 45 minute trigger, or pictures of an alleged concentration camp like in Bosnia.
"The fact is that Fikret Alic and his fellow Bosnian Muslims were not imprisoned behind a barbed wire fence. There was no barbed wire fence surrounding Trnopolje camp. It was not a prison, and certainly not a 'concentration camp', but a collection centre for refugees, many of whom went there seeking safety and could leave again if they wished.
The barbed wire in the infamous picture was not around the Bosnian Muslims; it was around the cameraman and the journalists. It formed part of a broken-down barbed wire fence encircling a small compound that was next to Trnopolje camp. The British news team filmed from inside this compound, shooting pictures of the refugees and the camp through the compound fence. In the eyes of many who saw them, the resulting pictures left the false impression that the Bosnian Muslims were caged behind barbed wire. "
Then we may be able to see if Brown has the courage to take on a REAL humanitarian crisis. So far his cowardice is palpable and nauseating in equal measure.
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Many illegal Zimbabweans in the Uk may be working doing cleaning jobs or something to get by. Zimbabweans want nothing for nothing. We have a very high standard of education and living and in most cases we ask no-one for nothing. Why can't you allow those Zimbabweans to work and sustain themselves legally instead of hiding to survive. What gives you the right to play God over their lives, after all they are humans who are striving to survive. What have you got against Zimbabeans Ms Jaqquie Smith.
Zimbabweans are definitely not used to hand outs. Please allow us to work and help our people at home.
We are watching our loved ones die and be unmercilessly murdered by the hand of Mugabe. Why is the world watching this, why can they not help. You are accessories to the Zimbabweans plight, You sit and watch, yet you do nothing. Help Us
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Nick,
I don't think that many people have yet understood what is actually happening.
Yes Zimbabwe is now a failed state, it is bankrupt it has hyper-inflation there is Cholera which is in danger of spreading to other countries, because disease does not recognise artificial man-made borders.
I firmly believe that this is a foretaste of what will happen on a global basis as the second Great Depression begins to bite.
If Gordon wants it in his terms then this is Global Downturn II. When we see the collapse of the American car industry then surely everybody can see that Keynesian economoic policy, in the long run, does not work.
Zimbabwe cannot be saved from its fate, but neither can many other countries which will face similar problems. We are in for a terrible time and the politicians, philosophers, and economists just do not know what to do. They are completely lost, they have no narrative and will try to do what they can to save themselves let alone the rest of us.
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talk about dodging the top story.
What about some comment that a second German Government spokesperson has said that Browns fiscal stimulus is wrong. He went on to say that Brown was incorrect to dress it up as "internal politics"
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Is it just me or are the majority of the blog comments being made by rabid conservatives with a small 'c'? Is this an example of right wing spamming? Or people suffering from multiple conspiracy theory syndrome. I would find these debates more interesting if people were not continuously looking for somebody to blame. Usually Nick Robinson or Gordon Brown, yawn.
The issue here is that Zimbabweans are in serious trouble and understandably looking to the UK, or anywhere else for an escape route. Do we have an obligation to look after them due to our colonial past? I would say yes, but with certain limitations - and introducing Visa applications to neighbouring countries would be a good way of doing this.
Meanwhile any UK government would have to be diplomatically cautious about any action with regard to Zimbabwe, because of frequent accusations by African countries of post-colonial interference.
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Nick,
just to say that I heard David Milliband on the Radio 4 Today programme this morning. He was asked about the fall in the currency, and completely failed to answer the question when asked was it not Gordon Brown who said that a weak currency was the sign of a weak economy.
When pressed he said that he would not get involved in a running commentary on the issue. Now should we apply the same logic to everything.
Zimbabwe, no running commentary, national security, immigrants overload the system
The occupation of Iraq, no commentary, disloyal to the country.
Dafur, DR Congo, Chad/Cameroon Oil Pipeline Project, no running commentary, foreign governments,
China, no running comentary, need to borrow their money to support our failing economy
Germany, oh no commentary, I mean they know where a failed economy ends up
The war in Afghanistan, no commentary , national security, disloyal, war on terror.
The state of the economy, no commentary, playing with peoples jobs, disloyal to to the country, national security
Aircraft Carriers for the Navy, no commentary, national security, build them and then mothball them
Glenrothes Bye-election, no commentary, ok we announced the aircraft carriers just before the election and now...we won it so!
Leaks to MPs, no commentary, ongoing inquiry, disloyal, national security
Government failures, Gordon doing a great job, everybody agrees, national crisis, we must all pull together
I think you get my drift, so is there anything else where we should leave the narrative to the politicians. Mind you what on earth would we do with you if you keep saying there will be no running commentary, except from the politicians of course.
In the meantime there will be no cover-up in Downing Street.
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This announcement and this blog are just a smoke screen to get us talking about anything but what the Germans have said about our fiscal stimulus.
The Mods can delete anything that mentions it as off topic
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Lets just stay out of it shall we.
Every time Brown opens his mouth he adds power Mugabes elbow.
We should just quietly get tough with South Africa, only they can resolve this.
I bet if the EU and US stopped all flights to and from South Africa Mugabe would be dead in a fortnight.
But that would be bad for business wouldnt it... forget I mentioned it.
Lets just face the fact we dont really give a dam...much more important things going on at Woolworths like half price iorning boards.
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I'm left wondering exactly what is the point of the government rhetoric.
Does closing our borders to the refugees say "we want nothing to do with you" or "you must remove Mugabe because we can't get support from other nations"?
Either way, all this decision ensures is that the refugees will gather on the borders causing problems for those countries and Mugabe will presumably struggle on with fewer mouths to feed.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Are all the governments in the world spineless when it comes to Zimbabwe.
Come on Putin, you invaded Georgia to protect the people of Osettia, so lets see what kind of world leader you are. Apologies to Putin's puppet but I cannot remember his name.
As for our government, well the latest priority seems to be hiding cigarretes under shop counters.
Oh and South Africa your a joke.
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The message should be simple and blunt
"NO ENTRY"
Anyone arriving at any gateway to the United Kingdom without valid and certifiable accreditation should be sent back IMMEDIATELY from whence they came!.
No more illegal immigrants
No more freeloading so-called political prisoners.
IF the people of Zimbabwe are so desperately unhappy at their plight - there is a simple solution...
Get rid of Mugabe themselves!....by whatever means they see fit..
Its not a British problem,its not a European problem,its an African problem and Africa must sort it out!
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Plenty of REmovals today.
Pickfords at the PC BBC are SOOO Busy.
MUGABE OUT GORDY TOO.
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If Zwimbabwe's economy is in such a mess and they have people scavenging and begging for food and no one has any money then I have just two questions?
1) How can they afford to come to the UK?
2) Even if they could afford it would anyone in their right mind want to come to the brave new world of ZanuLabour?
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the Zims must learn to govern themselves.
Will the MDC be any better than ZanuPF?
Doubtful.
Will South Africa be any better if we help the Zims?
Nope.
Waste of time and effort.
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Zimbabwe is an Africa problem and will have to be solved by Africa. When they agree to do so it will be solved overnight. Nothing that we in the West can do will make any positive difference. Until then we should require visas to travel to the UK from anywhere in the African continent.
About 30% of the adult population in Southern Africa has contracted Hive/Aids. Are we in Britain supposed to pay for retro-viral drugs for 30% of the people coming into the UK then not be allowed to return them to their own country because they wouldn't receive treatment because that is the reality of our current policy?
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We need Zimbabwen's coming into the U.K. at this time of our worse ever Recession, like we need a Hole in our Heads.
For a start this will place a direct burden upon our already under-funded NHS, secondly we do not have enought Social Housing going spare in any of our Town's, or Cities.
Thirdly, We don't have any Employment places, for Non - Educated People who will end up on State Benefit at a time when we are told that everyone should have a Job at this time of a Rising - Tide in Unemployment that is exspected to last for mant Years.
Fourthly, we will find that most of these Zimbabwen's don't even speak English.
Britain is too over - populated already, how many more can we take?
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Much hand-wringing and little else by the Brown government over Zimbabwe is a dangerous game.
Prime Minister Brown has about the same results in Southern Africa as Mbeki and Mugabe's mutual strategy to solve a problem. It is to believe there is no problem: Crisis what crisis? Now that there is no cholera, there is no cause for war. The ANC is ZANU-PF is New Labour is Old Labour.
These parties make the same difference in rhetoric and resolve. They look to their own partisan interests. Besides that how can one unelected statesman tell another unelected statesman that he is illegimately in power? That this is a political stalemate of note seems to be a fait accompli.
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#73 - LondonHarris - you are essentially correct, but the UK has been totally betrayed by the moral cowardice of our political classes. It was clear during the recent boom years that the immigration and asylum system was completely unfit for purpose - now we are in recession, it is completely unsuited to our times.
The asylum system must be scrapped and replaced with a proper system for helping genuine refugees and all immigration to the UK from outside the EU must be halted forthwith.
It is time our supposed Government started to look after the interests of its own citizens. This country is full to bursting and with mass unemployment looming, that it plain scary!
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#55 johnathan_cook
Love it! Brightened up my morning that has :)
#51 bluntjeremy
Nail on the head, well said.
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66. post removed. In essence it said that our cold weather wouldn't and doesn't suit them. Nature equipped them for the immense heat. Think about it.
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#51. At 09:25am on 12 Dec 2008, bluntjeremy wrote:
"Re the issue of refuguees: there are 20+ million Zimbabweans. We can't fit them all into our already crowded little island. Frankly, right now, we can't afford to either.
The best places anyway for the refugees are Zim's neighbouring countries: they are culturally and geographically much better placed to help than we are. We can help more people by providing aid and support locally than we can by accepting a very lucky few."
Your post is 100% spot on. If only our pathetic, self serving politicians could be as honest and clear. This country is very badly served by its political classes.
As for Zimbabwe - South Africa is the regional power and it is scandalous that it has sat by and allowed Mugabe to completely destroy a once prosperous and stable nation on its border.
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#51. bluntjeremy: Tragic decline yes, but primarily because Smith an upholder of civilised British rule went under the rod of idiots like Carrington. The fruits of Lancaster House speak very loudly in Zimbabwe. Never mind failing the burdensome Zimbabwean asylum seekers, what about our forgotten needy Brits out there like
thousands of OAP's with British pensions frozen now facing penury, disease and starvation in a hostile Zimbabwe. The Harare airlift was overdue years ago with constant tension and malice of the Zanu-PF
directed against Zimbabwe's favourite whipping boy - the last few remaining British settlers. Whose side are we really on?
Does anyone out there care about helping British pensioners in Zimbabwe? The answer is No! We apathetically worry more about Mugabe's Zimbabwean nationals getting safe asylum back home here in their green and pleasant land. Something is seriously wrong with this picture where kith and kin are inhumanely usurped by years of pathetic political correctness and socialist human rights charters.
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reading through the above posts 99.9% not wanting Zims. immigrants, migrants, refugees here. Call it what you want.
ok, Jacqui, Crash Gordon that's a NO.
But perhaps it helps you for us the state the bloomin obvious because ZanuLabour don't seem to see it.
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Whilst I agree that the countries of Southern Africa need to be a lot tougher on Mugabe and exert as much pressure as possible to oust him, I am appalled at some of the comments on this blog, especially those attacking 'the loony left' and saying 'this is Africa's problem' and 'none of my money to Africa, please'.
Iraqis and Afghanistanis never asked for world intervention, but of course the situation was a good excuse to stabilise and take control of vast oil supplies, whereas Morgan Tsvangirai (representing at least half of Zimbabwe) BEGGED Western nations to intervene and Mr Brown and co made a few gruff noises, wagged a few fingers and moved on with life.
Disgraceful.
What you people clearly don't appreciate is that centuries of British occupation and pillaging of other countries' natural resources created the fantastic infrastructure you now enjoy (yes, in comparison to the vast majority of the world, your infrastructure is fantastic) and their natural resources created Britain's abundant wealth that paid for your NHS, generous pension funds, and anti-poverty schemes (those who think people in Britain live in poverty should go visit a shanty town or two to see what real poverty looks like).
No, Britain does not ‘owe’ support to Zimbabwe, but morally I wouldn’t expect anything less than the same assistance it extended to those poor Middle Eastern nations it now occupies…
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We owe nothing to Zimbabweans (or others) except our compassion. If that means we allow someone into our country because they have a genuine need then we must do that, and properly integrate those that are allowed in.
What we must not do, is allow every Tom, Dick & Harry from Africa into the UK, because of a guilty colonial past, or because UK is better and therefore it's only fair!
The immigration policy as it stands has been a disgrace.
For example, vurtually everyone from the DR Congo wants to escape to Europe - specifically France, Belgium or the UK, and they will do whatever is necessary to get here. Cholera or not.
We now have MPs speaking French during their surgeries because there are so many immigrants from Francophone African countries. This is also a disgrace.
I spend much of my work in Africa. I cannot imagine how long it would take to properly integrate some of these people who come from countries with values fundamentally different to ours - where life is cheap, pity does not exist, and getting what you want/need always involves either corruption or violence.
What do we do? We allow huge groups of these people to form inner-city ghettos (in the name of multi-culturalism) where they apply their own values and live as they did in Kinshasa - and wonder why there is a growing problem with criminal gangs and knife crime.
Yes we have our own home-grown problems - but then the police force was designed to deal with those numbers. The amount of self-inflicted problems, notwithstanding the loss of culture and ethos, and inability to deal with the problems is down to a wet or non-existent immigration policy.
It is now probably too late to do anything to recover the situation.
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The situation is Zimbabwe is appalling, and whilst innocent people are dying, Mugabe continues to oppress the population and defy his electoral defeat. He urgently needs to let in relief workers who know what they are doing. At the moment, even the BBC is banned.
Swift action is needed to restore safe drinking water.
They need to remove the sewerage - and that includes Mugabe.
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#80. flamepatricia: When things are getting worse and worse, the last thing a nanny state government will do is entrust it to the vote.
If it were put to the vote in 1948 at least 99.9% would have voted to sink The Empire Windrush before it docked at Tilbury.
Successive British governments couldn't agree legislation controlling immigration until at least 1962.
Thankfully no one got to vote NO back then. Look at Great Britain today. Grateful white women everywhere. So what if we add a few million more Zimbabweans to the melting pot history of multiracialism in the United Kingdom.
Good humoured Englishmen know that if cold water is slowly heated, the frog will never jump out in time before boiling point is reached. Start handing out free tickets to them illegals in Harare.
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81. At 11:43am on 12 Dec 2008, jbktorias wrote: "What you people clearly don't appreciate is that centuries of British occupation and pillaging of other countries' natural resources created the fantastic infrastructure you now enjoy (yes, in comparison to the vast majority of the world, your infrastructure is fantastic) and their natural resources created Britain's abundant wealth that paid for your NHS, generous pension funds, and anti-poverty schemes".
That old canard. So, our wealth and prosperity was not created by the hard work and grind of our own working classes during the 18th and 19th centuries? So our "dark satanic mills" did not create our wealth. So our enterprise and ingenuity did not create the industrial revolution?
Yes, we had an empire and for a time (to our shame) we tolerated slavery, but to suggest the wealth of this country was created by colonialism is a travesty which dismisses the hard work, suffering and enterprise of the peoples of these islands!
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Once again Smith reveals a tendancy to talk first and think afterwards. This is blatent scaremongering and every time it happens it undermines any sensible thing she might say.
Is it just me or does she really seem to think that the job of the Home Secretary is to introduce new rules to control people? I'd far rather than instead of introducing new rules that she just did the job so that the rules we already have are implemented - or is that just too much to ask ?
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Somebody on here saying we enjoy a great infrastructure as compared with African countries.
Well yes we do. However, poverty is subjective and relative. A "poor" African living in a mud hut with no tv, MP3 player, mobile phone, takeaway food, etc etc etc. does not actually know or think they are "poor".
My relatives in SA tell me that the SA government gives handouts to these people to help them out of their mud huts but, you know what, they spend it all on beer and skittles. They don't want to leave the life they have always known.
Maybe it is us who are squiffy about it. Look at their faces on the tv news reports. They don't actually seem to care one way or another.
I do agree they could be helped to live a better life but you are treading a fine line between what they need and what WE think they need.
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Most Zimbabweans are lovely people - honest and industrious.
They are going through a difficult time.
Let's help them out: we'll take in bona fide refugees if they agree to take our ZaNuLabour government and its 'world-saving' ministers off our hands.
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#81. jbktorias: Well-meaning as you are in suggesting we OWE it all to Zim refugees.
It is the UK government's duty to act to protect what is in British interests, and that is to immediately bar all inbound flights from Southern Africa into the UK until the South African authorities will agree to guarantee the validity of the travel documents its own citizens hold.
Possibly infected Zimbabweans fleeing a cholera stricken country to successfully enter the UK using fake South African passports poses a serious health risk to the entire population of the British Isles.
South Africa's Department of Home Affairs will be sobered by this course of action,
but if the Home Office does not act Britain will end up with a burgeoning problem
like Calais where France's illegal migrants are encouraged to simply slip across to England because it is seen as a soft touch on refugees and asylum seekers.
At UK immigration centres there is real crisis to ensure all detainees receive free Sky and many other comforts of home where ZBC TV is hogged by bloated and unelected ZANU-PF demagogues.
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Mugabe: There is no cholera in Zimbabwe
Brown: No more Boom and Bust
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Tragic though the Zimbabwe situation is I'm not convinced it needs analysis by the political editor of the BBC?
What's the matter Nick, did your mini rebellion yesterday get your knuckles rapped?
For my two pennys worth the first step to solving Zimbabwe's problems is for Mugabe to die as soon as possible, surely someone can arrange that?!
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81
Well said that man - you have to understand that 90% of the users of this blog are bitter bigots lacking any milk of human kindness.
They keep threatening to leave the country. If they don't like a caring government - why not try Zimbabwe?
Bring it on!
Ha ha
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#57 I seem to remember that was the subject of a libel action in which Penny Marshall and ITN won a substantial sum of money against a magazine which put forward the same argument you just did.
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#81
The whole "Empire" argument is defunct and we must wean ourselves off using it. Times have changed. The moral views inflicted on us/by us in days of other centuries no longer exist. The Empire created problems - yes, and caused pain and suffering - yes. But there was no avoiding it. If it wasn't us, it would have been someone else. It is the way the world develops. There was no UN or world police force to stop it.
What we can do, however, is put today's moral values onto today's problems. Of course, our moral values do not often correspoond with those in the third world and vice-versa - and hence the problem. The Government does not understand this. Gulf wars, our ineffectual 2.3 Tn pounds of aid into Africa over the last 50 years have achieved nothing of significance (except putting money into the pockets of dictators who subjugate their people in the way colonial leaders might even have considered excessive!
So let's try to get over the easy socialist argument and guilt of empire. Here is a plain (some will find contraversial) statement - Without it, we would not be celebrating the first Black President of America.
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Whilst we are on Colonialism:
We lost India. Mind you, we have most of it back now.
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#92. At 12:02pm on 12 Dec 2008, Laughatthetories wrote:
81
Well said that man - you have to understand that 90% of the users of this blog are bitter bigots lacking any milk of human kindness."
No, not bigots but realists.
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92 Laugh.
That is fundamentally not true. It is abusive and blinkered. I work for charities and we provide what we can on a largish scale. Our immigration policies have failed. You give a typical Labour apologist flat view, based on an immovable prejudice, without any real consideration.
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I do hope all those people saying that it’s none of our concern and we should wash our hands all support UK’s membership of the EU. I also hope they are not the ones who say we should get out of the EU and rebuild our links with Common Wealth.
So the Common Wealth citizens are no longer going to be supported by the UK, fine then cut them free and give them their own heads of state, admit that great age of Britain ruling anything land or sea is over. Gives us the delightful option to sink on our own or finally bow down and accept European partnership.
By all means also ban any immigration from outside the EU, no matter the religion or colour of your skin. I’m happy with banning American’s, Canadian’s and Australian’s from the UK, or don’t they count since most of them are rich and white?
Personally I think the UK does bare some responsibility for Zim, not saying we should go in guns blazing or accept every immigrant with open arms, but we helped put Mugabe in power through our actions and inactions last century. I thought we were British, not American and did not simply walk away from our mistakes!
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So much for "moses" brown saving the world then! Would that be the world except for Germany, the US and now Zimbabwee?
Anyway, back to the subject.
The UK cannot continue trying to support everyone from these countries who cannot sustain themselves. It's long past time for the powers that be to publicly admit that there are far too many people in the world.
With Zimbabwee, there are plenty other african nations who are not lifting a finger to help. It's their problem not ours.
As a final point - how many countries are between Zimbabwee and the UK? We need to ask ourselves WHY they want to come here, that's the basic problem.
And of course this incompetent government is incapable of controlling immigration.
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#85. crowdedisland: Well said! Amazing how much working-class human history a bleeding heart can trample in a few lines.
Monsters like Mugabe and his ilk cannot keep on packing all Zimbabwean problems on the UK. Send us your nurses and doctors but for God's sake leave the AIDS victims and Cholera sufferers on the landing strip!
The Foreign Office would like to avoid any more ugly fingers of blame pointed at Britain's ostensible guilt over the bleeding orphans of her Empire. Yet more sidestepping of the real issues to avoid muddying the waters over Zimbabwe. That route will eventually mean burdening UK residents with more huddled masses and an added risk of pandemic cholera or other social virulence.
Zimbabweans are seriously ignorant of the one glaring yet overlooked problem they face. And that is what to do when Mugabe is gone, unlikely as it seems, that the old man could drop dead in office at some point. Yet when the people of Zimbabwe do finally relieve themselves of Mugabe's regime they may find many of their woes have only just begun. Britain's problem again in future? Hopefully not...a stitch in time etc.
Other bloody minded men like Mugabe or worse will doubtless emerge to assume his position and fill the vacuum. Unfortunately this is an African problem being dealt with in the usual African way. It will be short on steps with no sense of urgency for people dying there in droves as usual. Gingerly stepping over the bodies is by now the accepted role of UN peacekeepers - arriving just in time for mopping up operations in the aftermath.
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Kat
Perhaps I can refer you to 80 and 95 if you want to see prejudice on a grand scale.
Who or what am I meant to be prejudiced against? Racists?
I'm not immovable - persuade me I'm wrong to support humanitarian asylum.
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I disagree that we should stand by idly as "it is an African problem".
Britain had obligations under the Lancaster House which it reneged upon under Clare Short. It may not have been the only factor, nor even the biggest, but it gave Mugabe an excuse to pursue his destructive policies - first against the matabele and white people, then against all except a privileged few.
Since the epidemic is spreading into South Africa, we should be actively involved in diplomacy to assist South Africa and give them the impetus to take the lead in solving the region's problems. (I think of the Tanzanian invasion of Amin's Uganda as a precedent and a precursor to stability in that country).
Unfortunately, our expert on what the "Germans actually think" is little more than a boy in a man's job.
(At least we won't be sending warships up the Limpopo and Zambesi, unless that nice Mr Obama gives us the nod).
Our history of involvement means that we cannot turn a blind eye to those dying there - and better to solve the situation in situ than as a refugee crisis in South Africa and over here.
I may not like it, but I cannot ignore it.
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We can't invade Zimbabwe as some people are calling for. Mugabe has set out to convince the population that Britain is looking for an excuse to take its colony back. Any attempt to do so. Either by Britain or the other country seen as a Colonial power The United states and maybe Russia would probably unite the population behind Mugabe. Also the point others have made people its difficult to get to. Africa should probably do more and we should help them any way we can.
Look forward to more comparisons to "ZanuLabour" from the Trolls. like this one.
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101.
Don't do much laughing do you? Can't see an obvious joke when it's posted. Poor you.
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Have I been moderated merely for the suggestion that only the most permanent solution will solve the Mugabe problem?
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Sorry, I didn't know that assassinate is a dirty word!
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#87. flamepatricia wrote:
"My relatives in SA tell me that the SA government gives handouts to these people [sic] to help them out of their mud huts but, you know what, they spend it all on beer and skittles. They don't want to leave the life they have always known."
I'm sorry, but this is an old chestnut that was used to reinforce apartheid as a paternalistic caring system, is based on a very narrow understanding and insularity.
I visited Zimbabwe a couple of times after independence and have friends from all the major tribal groups. It doesn't fit and quite frankly is offensive.
You may find this caricature is more applicable to the benefits culture in the UK. (Since you appear to have time to post frequently on this forum, you're not among them are you?)
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There's been a fairly successful foreign policy running in Africa for the past few years which has helped shape and influence better governance. I'd like to see that given a higher level of PR and the various players held to account a bit more. That would force increased maturity both at home and abroad.
The integration issue is a real pain. It's just a fact that folks from some countries have a high cultural and language barrier issue to get over, and there's consequences on both sides. It's problematic for some Jamaicans and a real issue for Somalians, and has both quality and quantity components.
America's example is a bit problematic. They open the floodgates but stamp the American identity on people. Britain has tended to open the floodgates and has some white man's burden hang-up over enforcing a common standard. Less of one and more of the other would be useful.
Japan tends to demand conformity but has a managed approach to immigration and doesn't go handing out permanent residency to every sob story. They're a little on the tight side so following that model is problematic but a slightly slacker version of that would, again, be useful.
Lastly, the irony is that SA and Zim would still be under white rule if America didn't lean on SA, and SA didn't lean on Zim. The gross negligence and (I would argue) racism of the SA government is something they need to fix if they're to start being part of the solution instead of the problem.
This is another area where the 'Brown Doctrine' of quality standards, teamwork, and the long-long view can be effective. A little ruthlessness tempered with kindness can go a long way in getting folks over this hump. It's just another recession (or depression) by another name.
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101. At 12:27pm on 12 Dec 2008, Laughatthetories wrote: "persuade me I'm wrong to support humanitarian asylum."
That is a difficult point which must be answered. The problem is that the asylum system created after the horrors of WWII is no longer fit for purpose. It is used by the able bodied and better off in the third world as a means to get a better life in the west. Many, many people given asylum in the UK are in fact economic migrants, whilst the vast majority of genuine refugees are stuck in awful conditions with their dependents. The current asylum system must be scrapped and replaced with something which works in the 21st Century. To my mind that should not be to give asylum to refugees who pay people traffickers to ship them half way round the world (or who hijack planes as in the scandalous Afghan case). What we should do is create a fully effective international refugee organisation, funded by the wealthier nations, dedicated to providing decent humanitarian assistance to refugees in the regions which have the problems.
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@101 laughing
There's nothing wrong with supporting humanitarium asylum, but why are we, as one of the most overpopulated countries n the world bearing the lions share?
Perhaps you could persuade any one of the countries between here and Zimbabwe to do their bit.
I cant imagine why refugee's would want to keep travelling after their escape, unless they're somehow under the impression that we're the worlds softest touch.
Care to shed some light on why we are the destination of choice for so many people who dont speak the language or wish to adopt our culture?
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Has anyone paid close attention to flamepatricia's comments? They smack of prejudice and bigotry - these are not the 1800s!
You have labelled all Zimbabweans already in the UK 'illegal' and insinuate that all 'black' people in the West Midlands practice voodoo - or at least you think all Africans do!
We get your point, you do not like immigrants - fullstop. What about the tax credits and unemployment benefits that a vast number of UK citizens enjoy, exploit and survive on? They come from hardworking, law abiding, tax-paying immigrants who have to live with knowing they are working for people like you who slate them on every turn.
You keep referring to your relatives in SA who preferred apartheid - DO NOT CONFUSE BAD GOVERNANCE TO MEAN YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO TREAT SOMEONE ELSE INHUMANLY JUST BECAUSE OF THEIR SKIN COLOUR. That is what apartheid was about, the very same principle as slavery.
I respect your opinion in not wanting a multicultural Britain, you are entitled to it but you ought to be ashamed of the premise of your arguments.
I hope you get the chance to experience life on the other side, the 'black' African side, perhaps not in this lifetime!!
Please do not use this blog about politics to disseminate your veiled racist ideologies.
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Nick,
new blog seriously needed. The Mr. de Menezes verdict is now out.
Enough of Zimbabwe, this verdict is appalling for the Met police, a serious indictment of them. Open a blog now!
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46 Mr U
The chinese in africa..
The chinese have been active in africa since the 1960s. If you are saying they are particularly commercially active right now, along with others in buying up whatever they can get hold of that is not new. Look at what they are up to in Chile and Peru. Is the UK supposed to be some sort of world order. Sorry but I thought the British Raj was out of fashion. I was labouring under the illusion that we got booted out in every country that was part of the British Empire. Do you remember for example the Mau Mau by any chance.
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@108 Charlie_Gibber
Crikey Charles, aside form the last paragraph of labour propaganda you make good points.
Choosing to speak english instead of gibberish today helped of course...
I agree that finding a balance on immigration is tricky, but if anything would prefer to err on the side of caution for some time to come.
First things first, we already have quite a backlog of integrating to do so I would like to see the floodgates dropped for now.
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President Mugabe has dragged his whole country into a vicious vortex with the lives of Zimbabwean inhabitants in extreme danger. How could one man stoop so low? His actions have blighted, spoilt the opportunities of millions of Zimbabweans who would love to live peaceful lives. Their salvation will only be possible when this cruel dictator is hauled to the Hague. There are no two ways about it
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'Once again Smith reveals a tendancy to talk first and think afterwards...'
Cardiffopinion Comment 86
Jacqui Smith? Think?
My, you have a high opinion of cabinet members, don't you!
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Whilst fully acknowledging a vast human disaster unfolding in Zimbabwe, I must admit to long standing fascination with existing political power structures that enable a single person to wield so much power - for good or ill.
I am essentially a systems engineer and am quite conversant with 'top-down' heirarchical structures, in terms of electronic and mechanical systems and their associated benefits and drawbacks.
Often I find myself thinking that the drawbacks of a heirarchical political system can be catastrophic, as we can see here in the case of Robert Mugabwe, who has run Zimbabwe into the ground.
I suppose this type of event is the ultimate reasoning behind so-called 'regime change' as evidenced in Afghanistan and Iraq.
However, regime change has not proved to be very popular in Western political spheres, mainly due in my opinion, to a botched implementation rather than the over-arching idea of removing, by force, designated 'bad' regimes.
I think the UN is the most appropriate vehicle for deciding 'regime change' and needs to show those military teeth or else, it seems to me, millions more innocent people, who had the bad luck to be born 'there', will die.
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#102. fairlopean_tubester:
It is indeed a very uniquely African problem!
On the eve of 17th April 1980 His Royal Highness, Prince Charles, the Prince of Wales lowered the British flag and gave way to the liberators new Zimbabwean Flag.
Thereby ending 90 years of British involvement since the 1890 Pioneer Column entered that part of Africa. That marked the end of all legal responsibility for what happened in Zimbabwe. And the restive natives all live happily thereafter. The End.
As for Lancaster House, it was sadly never worth the actual paper it was written on.
Mugabe was not waiting for Clare Short to renege on any of its mute points, he was waiting for South Africa to be handed over to the ANC, it was agreed between Mbeki
and Mugabe that Harare's long-held plans for invading and nationalising white farms in Zimbabwe would raise the hackles of white South Africans and scupper the revolution in Pretoria. So Clare Short is a useful scapegoat Mugabe uses for his excesses.
Mugabe rules now by decree and has never needed excuses to pursue his policy of One man, One rule. Democracy is a word he used to get in and get an armed junta, you will never vote or smoke him out.
It seems he was paying Britain mere sympathetic lip service when he said:
"I wish to assure you that there can never be any return to the state of armed conflict which existed before our commitment to peace and the democratic process of election under the Lancaster House agreement."
Eat your heart out Peter Carrington and thank God you didn't retire in Zimbabwe. Robert Mugabe would have had long pig and tea for his english breakfast by now.
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104 lame patricia
That's a joke?
Please explain the humour
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I_Despise_Labour @ 110
I think it is appropriate to point out that even for a poor American, this country is 'paradise', in terms of the 'safety net', let alone an African.
So, why would anybody be surprised that they go to great lengths to get here?
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I feel sorry for the Zimbabweans individually. But any refugees must have travelled via a third country in which they were not subject to torture, etc. Therefore there is no legal requirement to allow any of them to stay here, and they should be returned to South Africa immediately. South Africa could solve the problem tomorrow if it wanted to.
We have enough problems here without importing them from abroad.
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Perhaps if we airdropped them Bob Geldoff?
Joking apart - but then again, Mugabe needs someone with BG's chutzpah to sort him out, are you on for it, Bob?
As far as the rest of it's concerned, an expeditionary force is out of reach for a large number of reasons:
1. We don't have the troops. An argued case might be made for conscription as a solution to growing unemployment, but Mugabe will probably shuffle off this mortal coil naturally in the delay needed to get them to proficiency and shipped out there.
2. Getting to Rhodesia means we have to invade an innocent country first. OK, no sooner said than done. We still have to supply the forces and that's trouble.
3. Cost. Anyone with the odd ten billion for a war and fifty billion to restart the economy please joing the queue.
4. Alternatives. We don't actually need to send troops these days, an ROV can do just as well paying him an unexpected visit.
5. And then what are you going to do with it?
The Imperial Heritage theory went out of the window with Ian Smith. That nationalisation of UK assets paid all debts once and for all.
As the only bean-counter ever to return a true account in the Balkans, I also know how deuced difficult it is to deliver funds as required in these circumstances, so unless you want our remaining assets papering the walls of some Zulu's dunnie in gold leaf, don't even start thinking about it.
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110 Despise etc
You're just plain wrong - where are your facts?
If you look at :
p.5
you will see that we are currently way behind USA, Canada and France and that the numbers of asylum seekers have dropped every year for the past five years from 100K in 2002 to 20K last year.
Don't just display prejudice.
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81 jbktorias
So because the military was sent it to Afghanistan and Iraq, which incidently I was opposed to, I somehow should welcome the possibilty of UK military intervention in Africa, because that is what is implied by doing something. That is the end point. No thanks. I am quite happy to see help given to zimbabwe nationals and a solution encouraged. I return to the point that Africa wants a black solution not white one. Pressure has to be applied along the borders or military intevention has to occur, but it should not be by the UK. It has to be Africa or the UN or both. Mugabe has wrecked the place. So Britain had an empire, in some countries Britain was there for only 50 years. Whether we should have been there or not is irrelevent. We are not there now, they are independent, and the minute we return there will be screams of neo colonialism and neo imperialism and leave us alone to sort it out.
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To be honest I dont see any way for the UK or any other country to fix this.
As a country we are becoming over full and I am not convinced that our country can cope with more people.
Unfortunately the current economic problems may lead to people returning to the uk who can and this will lead to another influx. Our welfare system is one that will attract in times of difficulty.
Money and troops and space in the UK are not the answer to the problems in Zimbabwe. To be honest in my experience it is Zimbabwe's nations that need to start having a greater influence on these issues. Military action from a non african source will not work and Military Action from an African source will not be trusted.
All feels a bit hopeless
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You know, it takes some cheek for the chairman of the Police Federation of England and Wales to speak for the de Menezes family like that! An Open and Shut verdict, more like.
I recall the day of the shooting, a witness on the train who wisely seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth described the exact state of affairs the Jury concluded happened. Oh well, ECHR 2.2.a. rules.
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115. Pancha_Chandra
Well, many African leaders have been cast from the same mould!
Perhaps that is the way it is always going to be (read "The Bottom Billion" by Paul Collier) Democracy sometimes doesn't suit (even Churchill recognised that!). IMF policy post WWII of pouring Bns into Africa (knowing it was buying the high life for the fewest) to prevent the leaders turning to the Soviets has proved disastrous. The plundering of their own natural resources for their own benefit - without regard for their fellow countrymen is mind-blowing.
Mugabe is just the latest manifestation.
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We're ok - state execution without trial now has a legal foundation so we can just shoot the foreigners at the border.
I 'truly believe' that the anti-terrorist squad are a terrorist organisation that are a clear and present danger to the British public - will it be unlawful if we shoot them in the face until their heads explode?
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68. greatandydudley wrote:
Ill tell you what Andy
Ill come around you house with 50 of my staff armed with pick axe handles.
Im going to take over and starve you for a few weeks.
Then Im going to let you try to get rid of me by whatever means you see fit.
I wonder if youll run next door or stay and fight me and the boys.
Hell I hear clucking already.
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Posting anything for a general audience is tough, especially when it involves technical issues they're not familiar with or other issues of ego get in the way.
But, yes. I've been following these issues on an off for years, like business development and better communities. Other folks may have a better technical understanding or are more involved but that's just a different focus.
I'll justify my fawning support of Dear Leader as it counterbalances some of the shrill partisan comment that some folks have sneaked in and you've ignored.
I note, some people have commented well on the practical and immigration issues, some of it from personal experience. I generally welcome that better quality and more in-touch comment. Who knows, it may start a fashion.
Mugabe is just another uber-troll. He sniffed his own gasses too much and had too much power. Understanding and forgiving that is hard but, as the Japanese say: "People make mistakes and have difficulties." I've found that helps me keep a sense of perspective.
This sort of thing also operates on a "group mind" level. You can see this in blogs, terrorist groups, and the global financial crisis. This is why Zen teaches that certainty of thought and letting emotions rip unchecked is generally a bad idea, and why letting go can be useful.
Forcing him out of power and putting him in jail may be an option but the Japanese idea of a "window seat" has something going for it. Indeed, Argentina removed General Galtieri from power, gave him a small flat and pension, and then forgot about him and got on with rebuilding the nation.
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"The people of Greater Manchester have voted against plans to introduce a congestion charge in the region.
A majority of voters in all of the region's 10 boroughs voted against the plans, with 812,815 (79%) no votes and 218,860 (21%) in favour of the charge
"
Unfortunately for Manchester Gordon doesnt beleive you actually meant NO. You will be asked again in 6 months time and like the Irish and the Lisbon Treaty you'd better get it right next time.
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Would it not be possible to do a parachute drop of fresh filtered water and medicines to minimise the cholera outbreak in Zimbabwe? I am not suggesting RAF or USAF planes, more like South African Air force planes - the water and medicine supplied by the G8.
No point sending money, it would end up in Mugabe's Swiss bank account.
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That's a good comment, JC. Folks have a natural tendency to seek out "authority" and "popularity". At the root it's just a game which generates a buzz, posturing or fights tend to attract more of this, and the whole thing spins out of control.
It's reasons like this why, I believe, mechanisms that drive power, status, and wealth down to the bottom and share it between people are important. Capitalism has forgotten this which is why it imploded like Communism.
Some of the issues are structural and some are a matter of circumstance. Now, I believe, the basic problem is bad design and folks getting too clingy. That's why I support a blank sheet approach to constitutional reform.
I read a fascinating online conversation between a Zen Buddhist and martial artist that helped shed a lot of light on the basic issues. Certainly, Zen and games design have a lot to say about this. In a nutshell, we have to be both better people and design a better game. Feng Shui has some useful input on that as well - it's all connected. More sober folks might want to read up on the "learning organisation". It says the same thing but has the advantage of not making you sound like a kook.
Dave Rogers is a former US Navy Commander and does an occasional blog at Groundhog Day. You might find some of his stuff interesting and relevant if you dig into it, and it might inspire you to do your own blog. I figure, you could help educate folks on these issues and it might be a fun hobby where you could let off some steam.
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Author Doris Lessing born was born in Rhodesia
Shikasta refuses to be confined within the Western view of history and culture, suggesting that the West is not necessarily seen by other cultures as flatteringly as it sees itself.
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@120 John
There was meant to be some irony in there!! I know that we're the promised land to anyone who is not well set in their own country.
It's hardly surprising, and I cant blame anyone wanting to improve their lives by coming here. The fault is with a system which even looks generous from half a world away.
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#127. kathmanduwallah wrote: Well, many African leaders have been cast from the same mould!
...shades of the obliteration by totalitarian regimes...the model being George Orwell's Animal Farm perhaps?
Whatever devastation spirals out from Zimbabwe could reveal a nasty surprise waiting for complacent neighbour and regional lynchpin South Africa.
Mugabe is dragging Zimbabwe and its neighbours down into hades with him along with countless lives of Southern Africa's people.
He is a low form of humanity happily effecting silent genocide of his own people. Mugabe has openly stated that Zimbabwe could do with losing about 6 million people, right now he is actively blocking aid getting to these same people. Of course there are the rightly outraged people in Britain, America and Europe who just want to ride to the rescue of Zimbabwe's downtrodden masses, as they seem to be so unwilling or so unable to fight for themselves. The alternative being to fling open our doors to them, that is until the next dictator emerges to ravage the African continent.
But what people in the West simply don't get about living in Africa is that right now Zimbabweans would love a peaceful death more than they'd want to save their brutalised lives. It is to this brute Mugabe's immense shame that he has not already been assassinated or hauled off to a war crimes tribunal yet, because he knows his core is rotten.
Although a world that allows him to merrily trot around destroying like this is also rotten to the core. Zimbabwe won't be safe until he is gone but then there'll be the matter of the devil's successor to deal with.
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#28
Quite.
Also in THE NEWS
World food program. Millions will die.
Prime Minister of Canada Suspends Parliament
Oh and lets not forget about the report of rapes and protests spreading through the Eurozone!
A few more topics to get the ball rolling...
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@123 laughing
Just because I cant produce government manipulated stats to support an argument doesn't make me wrong.
And just because I disagree with uncontrolled immigration doesn't mean I am prejuiced.
Dont suppose it ever occurred to you taht the drop in number of asylum seekers may correlate with a massive increase in illegal/legal immigrants who dont even have to bother claiming asylum?
Last I knew the government couldn't even keep track of all the foreign nationals they knew were in the country...
Dont just display sycophancy, try thinking for yourself instead of swallowing the party line.
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Yes people here feel we have been blamed and accused by Africa for actions in our past
Yes we have sent aid to africa before which has not worked.
Yes these people voted for Mugabe, but they had hoped for a black leader who was part of africa.
Yes they have to live with the consequences of their vote
HOWEVER, their are people dying, not politicians, these are human beings, they simply care about providing for their families and they care that their children are healthy and are having a good life. THESE THOUGHTS ARE THE SAME AS YOURS AND MINE AND ANY SANE PERSON
They are human beings and they are dying in horrible circumstances.
The comments on here stating how they should be left to sort "their problem" and accusing them of "wasting British money" make me sick and ashamed for the people of the UK, the country that I live in.
I never thought there were so many people in the UK who would be so callous and cold to turn a blind eye to what is happening and make themselves feel better by shedding all responsibility.
It makes me sick
The world will never be a nice place to live if people cannot rise above pety differences and continue to hold grudges. HOw many Zimbabweans do you think will criticise us if we went in and saved their lives now?
NO MORE POLITICS, ACTION IN ZIMBABWE NOW OR PREPARE FOR ANOTHER RWANDA SCALE CRISIS
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i_despise_labour
Your comments are, despite your protestations, despicable.
If Zimbaweans came here seeking asylum then they would be an almost the very definition of people who require it. This is why that system is in place.
They are escaping their deaths.
Turning this forum discussing Zimbabwe into a rant about uncontrolled immigration is sick. You should be ashamed of yourself
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LondonHarris - 73# It is obvious from your comment, that you have never lived in Zimbabwe.
Let me point out that, there has never been Social Handouts in either Rhodesia or Zimbabwe....if you don't have a job, you starve. As a result the vast majority of Zimbabweans, both black and white (and inbetween) are hard and loyal workers.
Secondly, for the most, the peoples of Rhodeia and Zimbabwe, received an education second to none in this world.
Thirdly, it is only a few people who do not speak English....most have a better command of the English language than those in the U.K., albeit with an accent.
However, I also feel that it would prove fruitless and further endanger the economy of this country, to allow an influx of Zimbabweans to the U.K., where there is not enough housing or employment for it's own people and the infrastructure in general, is already overloaded and stressed.
My main thoughts of the matter of allowing these people into the country, is that we would also be importing the AIDS/HIV virus. Zimbabweans are very generous people and will share anything with you and that includes AIDS/HIV.
Mugabe has ranted on and on over the years, that he did not want overseas intervention regarding the problems in 'his' country saying, that he had the answer to all of Zimbabwe's problems. Time and time again he has not accepted help from the West (except the money donations of course). I don;t think there is a Western Country that he has not blamed for Zimbabwe's problem, whereas most of the problems encountered, were of his own and ZANU-PF's making.
He has to go, as do all of his Governmental cronies...........and go soon, all the way to The Hague and the chopping block.
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Thank you very much, Charles, I just knew you were going to bring feng shui into it at some point...
You know the thing that is going to drive CEH crazy? If ever he finds out my real name, he'll discover he's been typing it into his core functions every time he writes a program, so he'll never ever get rid of the memory! That happened when Rahere made a bad joke aged 11 to someone who taught Sostrup how to compile...
By comparison with Charles' blogs, this is the level I work at: http://www.sen-lecture.eu/
Those looking for ideas on where we go from here might look at the lecture text on that page, which portrays some of the options in front of us. The status of the speaker is such that you may very well find his ideas being brought to bear once the World Bank starts doing its job correctly, if you check his CV. I'm the fat one in one of the pictures, Charles, just to help you with your dossier.
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138 Despise the world
I think you're confusing thinking for yourself with thinking of yourself - a common trait amongst some of the Tories on here.
My views are based on evidence and a belief in community - which requires you to think of others.
Give it a try, you will despise others less and respect yourself more if you do.
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@140 FlyingHurdler
I am not ranting and I am certainly not ashamed of myself.
The asylum system is supposed to involve claiming asylum in the first safe haven, has someone moved Zimbabwe into the channel when I wasn't looking?
Action should certainly be taken to help them, but it should be coordinated international action that removes Mugabe and addresses Zimbabwe's internal problems.
I'm not in a position to instigate such action, but our ineffectual government are, the irony is they're less likely to do something than I am!!
You think my comments are despicable? Dont read them then...
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The politics of the real world and blogs is the same. The common root is people's perceptions and attitudes. That's why, I figure, it's important to focus on substance and consensus here. The lessons, skills, and changes help improve your own approach and stuff flows around.
Matthew Paris wrote a good article on why Africans tend to get sucked in by bad leaders some time ago. I think, Britain has issues of its own in this area, which is why I promote the view that developing better leadership and communication skills is important.
One thing the American's get right and the British (online and offline) get wrong, is that when an American is successful everyone else piles in to share the action. The British tend to beat someone down. Africa's issues are similar, and getting over this can help jumpstart a better alternative.
Key values of Buddhism are love and learning, and developing social kindness and self confidence is a similar thing. Other folks might call it, say, enlightened self-interest, but the neo-Darwinistic brutal turbo capitalists have driven that out as surely as bad colonialism. This is why a switch in focus is useful.
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140. FlyingHurdler
And there lies the rub about not debating both issues and they are connected they are not separate.
What if every one of them made it here? Would you give them all asylum?
The current policy really only helps the strong, the ones that can actually make it here.
That certainly doesnt work, does it?
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This is a forum on which people post their opinion and others offer theirs, so I did.
Just because other countries won't offer asylum doesn't mean we shouldn't. Action at the source is of course primary
However seeing as Labour seems unwilling to do this then they should be ready for those escaping.
You are the selfish minority of this country who would never allow the situation of people in this country to improve even if they are here for good reason. Your tory, daily mail, selfish attitude will ensure they are accused, devalued, criticised and alienated at all times.
You daily mailers verge on the Racist and Xenopohobic
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@143 laughinglefty
I'm not a tory, there's a difference between despising the inompetent idiots who have ruined our country and being a tory you know.
Unfortunately, there's not much left in the way of community for me to believe in anymore, its been mysteriousy degraded over the last 11 years.
I have plenty of respect for myself thanks, none for gormless government and their apologists however.
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On this issue I find myself in total agreement with some regular posters whom normally my views would be totally the opposite.
The UK as I posted earlier should imho accept no more inward immigration from anyone from anywhere who has NO valid and current accreditation e.g passport / visa.
If that is made clear they will soon learn and wont try to come here...
we have been a dustbin for too long for the waif's and strays of the world - time for it to stop...
if that impacts on some genuine refugees then dont blame us - blame the freeloaders and illegals who have spoilt it for everyone else...
With regard to Mugabe....surely somewhere in the G7/G20/NATO - whereever - there is someone with the guts to stand up and say - give me a concencous and a broad agreement on resolving this issue and I will.
Its as simple as that - his countryment DONT want him, most of Africa has washed their hands of him, other than a few similarly despotic regimes - no one will touch him....
He is a brutal evil dictator....
someone somewhere has to take the moral responsibility to do the deed - i.e remove him....
I have various thoughts and suggestions as to how we could and should do it - that are not printable - suffice to say - if we can deal with the Nazi's after WW2 ,if we can deal with Saddam Hussein - then Mugabe is not that difficult to remove from Office...
Will someone please have the balls to step up to the plate - the world awaits!
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CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
That is why we should have an effective foriegn policy in Zimbabwe. Worrying whether asylum seekers can reach us shouldn't be the focus. Fixing the issue causing them to leave should be.
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At 12:02pm on 12 Dec 2008, Laughatthetories wrote:
81
Well said that man - you have to understand that 90% of the users of this blog are bitter bigots lacking any milk of human kindness.
They keep threatening to leave the country. If they don't like a caring government - why not try Zimbabwe?
Bring it on!
Ha ha
My 5 year old uses better arguments than you do LATT. Grow up and debate the issue. Calling people names 'like bigot,. 'racist', homophobe' really is pathetic.
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I'd like to thank the 4 out of 5 Greater Manchester voters who - by rejecting the proposed 'congestion charge' - have struck a blow against the surveillance state and more stealth taxes.
Let's hope their action starts a nation-wide trend.
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@149 andy
Completely agree and that's as unusual for me as it is for you!
Unfotunately I think as a consequence of the Iraq fiasco any country's leader would be loathe to take direct action.
It would take a leader of real ideals and conviction to do what is necessary and it is sad that the UN/NATO dont have one.
My suggestions on how to deal with Mugabe didn't pass moderation. It's as if the BBC cant cope with any reference to the state of being that immediately follows life...!
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Here's hoping, MaxSceptic.
I nearly choked on my coffee this morning when I heard the strains of Mugabe saying "we have arrested cholera". It really looks like it!
The time for talk is over - my solution to the Foreign Office/Home Office standoff is quite simple - impose temporary UK travel restrictions on all countries that border Zimbabwe (SA included). The restrictions would only need to be in place at the least until the cholera outbreak is contained and political tensions in the region ease slightly, or best case scenario Mugabe is removed from office and the restrictions on Zimbabwe can start to be lifted as well. As for the immigrants that have already made it here, well there's not much we can do about that, it'd be heartless to send them back so why not issue some temporary visas here too?
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150 - I dont think the solution is rocket science...
1. Remove Mugabe
2. Support Tscangerai(sic) on the basis he accepts a UN Peace Force made up of primarily African and other non-European Forces (move any colonial / US antagonisms.
3. IMF UNICEF and UN supports a sensible aid package targetted at the reconstruction of what after all was the breadbasket of Africa not so long ago!
4. No direct aid to Zimbabwean Political parties but directed at the people who need it most.
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Liberation struggle hero - and Mugabe was just that - is now turned into a despot dependent upon and being maintained in power by real villans: the army and senior ZANU party men who have too many skeletons in their cupboards to risk upsetting the status quo. Time, I think, to commission a new HMS Tiger (maybe they'll notice the irony) and ship across rehydration salts and antibiotics. It's time that political and medical salvation came through the barrel of a gun. We should be brave enough to withstand the taunts of neo-colonialism and racism that would accompany that action, but I can see no alternative to achieveing the desired regime change.
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153....its a bizarre suggestion in many ways...
I'd even suggest the West has a chat with their old friend (now eager to be ally) General Ghadaffi....
I'm sure some kind of deal could be done to forgive past misdemeanours and to bring him back in to the fold where in fairness some of his recent actions in support of the West against islamic militants have moved him to...
Mercenaries come in many forms!
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156
I agree....
As someone who stood up for Biko,for Mandela,who chased Zola Budd - literally around parts of the UK (lol)...who aspoused and supported the freedom of black Africans to determine and rule themselves - this guy is as despotic,evil,cowardly,downright disgusting as any of the white colonian bigots that genuine Africans and many in the West sought to remove and replace...
I cant in all honesty think of anyone anywhere in history more despotic - for the very reason that unlike the right wing fascists of the 30/40's,unlike the South American dictators,unlike the excesses of Eastern Europe etc - this guy actually had the brass neck to come to power and stay in power on the lie and the sheer unadulterated cheek of being a reformer and a progressive...
The anger and disappointment of those who advocated change in Africa is the greater against this muppet than anyone else I can think of - but its time to stop talking - and to act....
It is a great regret I believe that Mandela is not 20 years younger - as I believe - and I know some will not agree - that the appeasement of South Africa to Mugabe - would have gone a decade ago - had Mandela been in charge and as active as he once was....
There may yet be one final opportunity for the greatest of men to sanction somehow someone to act on behalf of all decent black and white Africans...
nieve I know....but something has to be done..
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150. FlyingHurdler
I hear the words, but define effective policy.
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107. It is not an old chestnut it is happening now in South Africa. My sister has lived there for years - are you saying she is a liar? She hasn't just visited like you, she has lived worked and married there.
I have other relatives there - ten in different families who say the same.
Get your facts right.
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@147 FlyingHurdler
You are a dailymailist, such discrimination against and generalisation of readers of a newspaper tut tut.
Never read it myself, and certainly didn't know that its full of xenophobic and racist propoganda!!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
We have been indoctrinated with shame for our colonial past; as a consequence we feel we have some moral responsibility for what is happening in Africa. Billions of dollars of aid over the decades still results in the vast majority living in poverty whilst rulers live in the lap of luxury. Nothing changes except now and again a war breaks out with 'rebels' wanting their share of the largess.
Charles post above has good sense except in his approval of the 'Brown Doctrine' which in the PM's case means - continue to do nothing but speak out at every opportunity. As have all his predecessors in that post.
We are taken for mugs by those in African power and the UN, the supposed watchdog, does nothing.
Sad to say but we no longer have the ability to do other than watch and complain.
I do not know what the solution should be, except we need to stop sending good money after bad, and our politicians stamping their feet and beating their breasts with rage achieves nothing.
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160 - Patricia - my brother in law has worked in Tanzania and South Africa - like me he is more of the political left - than the political right...
I agree totally with your sentiments on this matter - as I believe you are making a point - as opposed to in some way casting aspurtions.
As the old saying goes....
"you can lead a horse to water....
unfortunately in this partof the world too many people when given rights and freedoms by genuine and worthy people are unable or unwilling or both to grasp the nettle...
I know for a fact that not just the SA Govt offer massive (relative) support to improve the lives of their people - yet much of it - too much is wasted on corruption,drugs,abuse etc....because it is so endemic in their cultures....
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147. At 3:55pm on 12 Dec 2008, FlyingHurdler wrote: "You are the selfish minority of this country who would never allow the situation of people in this country to improve even if they are here for good reason. Your tory, daily mail, selfish attitude will ensure they are accused, devalued, criticised and alienated at all times.
You daily mailers verge on the Racist and Xenopohobic"
Never read the Daily mail myself - prefer The Times. However, I think you will find the polls show that the vast majority of people in this country are very perturbed at the unprecedented levels of inward immigration we have experienced under Labour. I think you will find people are concerned about the environmental, social and cultural consequences of mass inward migration, whether they read the Daily Mail or not.
It is a crime by our Government against the existing citizens of this country. Control of numbers in the interests of existing citizens, should be the cornerstone of any responsible Government.
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160 Dear Patricia
If you read carefully, I am not calling your sister a liar. I know this viewpoint well from time spent in South Africa and I also have numerous relatives there to match yours.
I wonder whether your relatives have many friends within the non-white community, or meaningful contact other than through business or domestics? Have they engaged with or spent time in any other African countries?
All I am saying that these jaundiced views arise from insularity rather than insincerity or dishonesty. They are fed by urban myths that themselves arise from an (understandable) undercurrent of fear. I can sympathise with them, but cannot accept them. They are at best patronising, at worst offensive.
(Which is why I am being mildly both in this response).
I stand by what I wrote, although I admit the last paragraph was tongue in cheek.
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Nick,
yet again you seem to have gone walkabout.
Yes there is the Zimbabwe crisis, but we have had the De Menezes verdict. Now we have heard from the Office National Statistics about the release of the figures relating to knife crime. Bearing in mind the arrest of Damian Green can we now expect a comment from the Home Secretary about these appalling events.
In the meantime this country is getting more like Zimbabwe with Zanulabour saying that knife crime is not as bad as it was and Mugabe saying that Cholera is under control.
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Still think it would interesting to try and buy out Mugabe and the cronies.
It's obvious that nobody's going to go in and "take out" this corrupt regime.
Brown seems keen to "buy out" the corrupt bankers who created all the stupid - and avoidable - financial crisis.
Buy the farms owned by Mugabe and cronies.
Put them into a UN administered trust fund, with responsibility shared with directly elected Zim representatives.
Make it conditional on Mugabe and his mob to either retire (or better still accept exile).
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We have a child in charge of the foreign office and a fool in number 10 god help us
all, problems in Zim send peter hain the clown helped to creat it no need maybe as the fool saved the world
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Odd that Nick hasn't got around to a new posting about Brown's "success" in forging a unified European response to the credit crisis.
Maybe he - like the rest of us - need to see whether the detail actually makes any sense.
On too many occasions, the big public moment unravels as soon as the details emerge.
I'd guess that the EU has simply aggregated whatever has been done so far by individual nations and tried to present it as a "future action".
That's been the way with Blair / Brown over the years. If you were head of an EU nation, wouldn't you just agree to a bunch of words, to make it easy for Gordon to go home as soon as possible?
God, I hoped that they'd keep him occupied for days, weeks, months. Thus reducing the havoc he can wreak here in he UK.
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Overwhelmingly these posts are not in favour of Zims sending people here, legally or illegally.
Great to see people kick starting democracy when they become incensed about an issue such as that.
Let's hope the people in all political parties have read these postings and see what the people REALLY want.
We can, and have, spoken for ourselves!
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Great Lies of the World - Series 132b: 2008
1) "No more boom and bust"
2) "Britain is well-placed to withstand the downturn"
3) "We saved the world!"
4) "We have arrested cholera"
That Mugabe is a novice!
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please don't send (mark) thatcher in
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Fallopian tube:
We are off the point of this blog. You will see that, whatever they are doing or not doing in their own countries, overwhelmingly we do not want them here. We are full to saturation with immigrants and many feel that is one of if not the main cause of our financial downfall. The infrastructure here cannot cope and the council's do not receive enough money to accommodate them. There is a housing shortage as you must well know.
This Labour lot have ruined our country and the sooner we get them out the better.
I am not nor have I ever been on benefits unless you call a Carer's Allowance of £152 per month a benefit. My son is severely disabled and I retired early to look after him as the carers from the council (many of whom could not even speak English) were useless and let me down so much I gave up work to do the job myself.
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It is very tempting to advocate regime change and the removal of Mugabe - no-one would miss him that's for sure. But I'm struggling to think of any examples where regime change imposed from the outside has been effective.
Can anyone enlighten me?
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swap the zim's in exchange for the south afrikaans
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170 Peter
Could you just run that past us again in English?
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Got it! The answer....!
Send Peter Hain back there to sort it out. I know they didn't want him and sent him over here but he didn't earn his spurs so ship him back.
That should do the trick.
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171 Fairlyopenmind
We've had the Chinese water torture of hearing every 8 seconds that "this is the right thing to do" (without any real justification how, when and why).
It looks like Gordon's moved on to:
"This is the answer" (still without the justification - of course)
"This is the answer"
At least the German's were more honest - in response to the following question:
Doesn't an unprecedented crisis call for unprecedented measures?
"It's the yearning for the Great Rescue Plan. It doesn't exist. It doesn't exist!
Dealing with an unprecedented crisis is a puzzle, a trial-and-error. Honestly, I don't know.
I tend to be skeptical because it is human nature to see the crisis as even worse than it is. I don't want to downplay anything;
2009 looks like it will be a very difficult year. But we are not about to collapse. We are just about to ratify our €31 billion stimulus in Parliament.
As long as we haven't even given that a chance to work, I am not going to participate in this bidding war over who can do the most. I try to exude a little steadiness and continuity instead."
Gordon Brown - "This is the answer" - Really??!!!!
Very clearly - from the more honest German politician - who isn't trying to cling to his job - this isn't the answer. It is instead hopeful.
Gordon hates reality getting in the way doesn't he...!?
Zimbabwe, however, might be "the answer".
Can we ship Gordon off on some sort of United Nations envoy job - to find a peaceful solution to Zimbabwe?
He can grandstand and look important whilst talking to world leaders, wearing his suit.
The advantage to us in the UK, of course, is that whilst abroad he won't have his fingers in the 'UK till'.
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lame pat
So can we expect to see you manning the barricades, or are you just going to stick a few pointless posts up?
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Dear Nick,
Pity those poor fools being downgraded and brutalisd by an unelected despot who is unable to count and lords over his minions.
Rule Britania.......!
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Nick
Do you trust the stats the home office have used to form their opinion on this?
This story doesn't bode well
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7780057.stm
The home office seem to take the 'lies, damn lies and statistics' as a directive rather than a warning...
- You really should consider your analysis of this (home office vs foreign office) against your labour vs tory analysis -- think if this has been tory vs labour rather than home office vs foreign office, how would your tone one one side (or the other) have differred... huh?
ps. Any update on mandleson/oleg/eu-tarriffs?
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I do not understand all this ranting and raving about immigration. 20 million from zimbabwe. As if. Migrant workers, sorry but all members of the EU are entitled to come here - there are 500 million of them. You might think it is daft but that is the cost of being in the EU. If you think this is the last time scare stories are going to be floated think again. When global warming gets going, and fairly shortly, huge areas of the world are going to be uninhabitable. You are talking about whole sectors of continents on the move to avoid starving. This is small beer. And probably floated as a distraction ploy.
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I remember a white south african girl at work showing everyone a letter form her auntie saying that the beaches have been destroyed now they let the blacks on them.
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400 years
And it's the same -
The same philosophy
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South Africa, with its pro-Mugabe policies, is directly responsible for the mayhem that is Zimbabwes fate.
It is therefor incumbant on SA to accept most of the refugees from that unfortunate country.
The UK attempts at a political settlement to save this previously self sufficient country has been rejected by other African nations.
The UK has no moral responsibility to accept the refugees. In any case why travel thousands of miles to UK, surely they are safe in SA?
I'm surprised Jacque Smith is taking this line.
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Look how long: 400 years, (400 years, 400 years) -
Way too long! (wo-o-o-o)
Thats the reason my people (wo-o-o-o) - my people cant see.
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175. Patricia.
I certainly agree with you that this country is over-populated. The lax attitude and incompentence of the current administration have played a significant part, aside from also wrecking our economy, stealth taxes, unnecessary wars (the list goes on).
Unfortunately it is all too easy to see immigrants as "those people" and fail to make a humanitarian response when needed. They may not be my family, but I still hurt to see their unnecessary suffering.
If you read my original post, I am suggesting that we need statemanship (that we don't currently possess, especially in the person of the foreign secretary) to engage with South Africa to find a local solution to these problems - not by might, nor by power...
Why should we care? Aside from hoping that we haven't lost our humanity, we have reason partly due to history, partly because we still share in something called the Commonwealth (soon to be named the "Commonpoverty" in honour of Gordon Brown's economic genius) and partly because, if we are astute, we may want to keep a stake in the region before the Chinese implement total economic suzerainty.
The chances of it happening? You must know from your sister that we (the British) are still respected in South Africa. Unfortunately we lack the commensurate leadership and self-respect here.
PS The name comes from my local Underground ("tube") station, nothing anatomical and nothing varies(!). Have a good weekend, you and your son.
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Since we are on the subject of Zimbabwe....... their currency is destroyed and they have turned to the printing presses.
I couldn't help notice this article - on a similar theme about us here in the UK:
Article: Why do Labour Governments always end up with a run on the pound?
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#156, 158.
Sorry to disagree. If Britain intervenes Mugabe will remain a hero to too many, and long term it will be worse. What if other African ex-colonies go bad in the future?
We are no longer a great power. I know young people in the forces. I do not wish to sacrifice any of their lives for this.
It's an African problem. South Africa in particular dragged its feet, and is suffering the consequences. It's time for the new African democracies to grow up and shoulder their responsibilities.
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im a zimbabwean and its really painful the situation we in. We have tried evry right way to remove mugabe (voting) but it failed, we cant use violance because the army will kill us, they get paid enough to protect him, otherwise they would have stopped listening to him, he is an old racist man with dimentia! please help us, we are dyn, weak and in need, i dnt knw y the world is not coming in to help us, life has become unbearable for us, no food, water, electricity, evrything is rationed.. i could go on...but i cant...
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I know-Ms Smith can give them all jobs in the House of Commons-after all a few refugees won't make that much difference to all the illegal immigrants already employed there!
Noone has cared about Zimbabwe until they got a dose of Cholera. And what do the Great. And the Good do? Debate the issues raised!
It's simple-cholera grows in faeces contaminated water. Not likely here, no matter how foul your tap water tastes!
Get Mugabe in prison for genocide, and help those poor people.
Oh, I forgot-they don't have massive amounts of something we need, so our politicians just have a chat over a cuppa.
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Since we are on the subject of Zimbabwe still - we should not forget political suppression in the country and how Mugabe has arrested opposition opponents and beaten and threatened people criticising his government.
Things are not as violent in this country - but the government cracks down on opposition politicians. Also Derek Draper has set up a Labour rapid rebuttal unit to hit the blogs.
I've noticed that if you publish anything on this blog which might fuel a breaking story in the press, then you get referred to the moderators repeatedly. This happens so regularly that it is more than a coincidence.
My post at 189 was referred - I posted an extract from The Statistics Commission in Nov 2007 complaining how the government were manipulating statistics
I was replying to post 183 The-real-truth who had brought up the subject of the dodgy knife statistics.
If you want to see a PDF copy of the letter from the Statistics Commission, which details how the government purposefully manipulated statistics - then I'm afraid that since with live in 'Zimbabwe-like-times' then you are going to have to Google it for yourself - search on these words:
drug statistics commission
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We've got three problems:
1. Zimbabwe - Mugabe is a dictator running amok
2. The UK economy - Gordon has wrecked the economy and continues to spend and borrow so fast that even the printing presses can't keep up.
3. Africa - Gordon seems happier paying off African debt (good), whilst racking up our own debt in the UK (bad).
The solution gets clearer every day:
Step1Let's remove Gordon Brown and stop him wasting the UK's money on a 'failed fiscal stimulus' and 'ID Cards' etc.
Step2Let's parachute Gordon into Africa to sort out their problems.
Here is an artists impression of what Gordon would look like in action:
Artists impression- Gordon Brown takes on Africa
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This is a very clever piece of 'information'. Belatedly our Home Secretary seems to want to be seen taking a hard line on immigration. We also see that there is actually discussion within cabinet (as Gordon is busy saving the universe). This is a good thing as there has been too much cabinet unity making it appear that Gordon (or Tony or Maggie) is the only person making decisions. A little more open debate prior to reaching a conclusion would make any government appear more open and convince the public that action is carefully considered with many views taken into account. We have a very long way to go.
As for Zimbabwe, the only country which can really do anything about it is South Africa. Force provided by Southern Africa countries with logistical support from NATO or EU would do the job. I doubt if any fighting would last more than a few days. There is a viable leader, the South Africans would guarantee minimal retribution with its record of truth and reconciliation and aid would flow in (cheaper than soldiers). If the Foreign Sec wants to take pressure off the Home Sec all he has to do is persuade South Africa to take action. Of course a large scale spread of cholera into South Africa might just do the job for him.
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Of more immediate cocern to the Home Secretary, should be the offer made by the Portuguese government to give asylum to the current residents of Guantanamo Bay. Even if these suspected terrorists were not guilty, I suspect that their stay at the Bay would be a hell of a motivation to join the calling of Al Quaeda.
As there is free movement within the European Union, what is to stop some of these people coming over to the UK to seek retribution from the "Great Satan's" closest ally? Does anyone have any confidence in the Portuguese authorities to monitor these individuals and stopping them from leaving Portugal? After the McCann case, Portuguese police = Key Stone Cops.
An influx of Zimbabweans would be infinetly preferable, some of whom may well be British passport holders anyway.
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Nick,
I was surprised that the BBC gave airtime to a person from sort of ministry in Zimbabwe where without any argument he was able to assert that the Cholera outbreak is a weapon of mass destruction by the British. Can we now expect to be invaded by America, or is somebody lying again.
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recommended listening
Yo! Bum Rush the Show • It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back • Fear of a Black Planet • Apocalypse 91… The Enemy Strikes Black • Muse Sick-n-Hour Mess Age • There's a Poison Goin' On • Revolverlution • New Whirl Odor • Rebirth of a Nation • How You Sell Soul to a Soulless People Who Sold Their Soul?
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Roots Natty Congo
And all my brothers Born In America
Your fore-parents were Born in Africa
So you are Africans born in America
And all my brothers Born In Jamaica
Your fore-parents were Born in Africa
So you are Africans born in Jamaica
And all my brothers Born In England
Your fore-parents were Born in Africa
So you are Africans born in England
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so you are
Africans living in America
Africans living in Jamaica
Africans living in England
Africans living in Canada
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jcook @ 180
"supporting hard working families through the downturn" - that's the one you're going to get really sick of
and what about lazy families? - don't they get a bit of support too? - not the worst crime in the world being a little bit on the lazy side, is it?
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Nick,
you've gone walkabout again.
Retreat from Iraq. Four dead in Afghanistan. SAS to be transferred from Iraq to Afghanistan. Should we appease the Germans over the economy. The knife crime statistics.
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Tensions arise over Zimbabwe Crisis
Tensions arise over Nick Robinson's Newslog
Who? What?
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The UK is to send £xm to Pakistan to booster security on Afganistan border. Is not the blood of too many British troops enough? This on top of the Zimbabwe aid and no doubt all the refugees that we will take.
Yet we have insufficient money for our troops and treatment for cancer patients but money can be sent all over the world to divers places.
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In defence of Nick - dont some people realise he has a life outside of the BBC?
I'm sure he must have family and friends like the rest of us and no-one can work 24x7.
Its also a fact that on occasions there is'nt an immediate story worthy of a blog....
Maybe those constantly chastising him when a blog does't appear every day - should be looking at themselves.....maybe its they that lead sad lives!....
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re comment 195
Does comparing the government to ZanuPF relate to Godwins law as a desperate last ditch claim from someone who has effectively lost the arguement?
I would imagine any refugee from Zimbabwe would find the claim extremely offensive. Luckily hardly anyone reads this.
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208
yeah, mr. robinson is probably christmas shopping. his cartoon looks friendly like morcambe or wise
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mr. brown is too busy saving the world, the worlds banks today. zimbabwe is on his nice to have list.
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210 - maybe he's stuck behing Do nothing Dave in the queue at Woolies...
Dave cant seem to do anything spontaneously or without a camera crew with him!
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nobody cares about dave
dave cares about nobody
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with family in Zim and Parents back in SA, and having beein raised in SA as a European, I thought /I would add my own two pence worth.
Great aunty dudley, I would hate to meet you. You are an insincere and bombastic person, and I am sorry that you feel you have the 'right' to foist your message of class hatred on us. remember, in Africa, it isn't race first, it's tribal then race.
every single person who writes here and has not actually been there (to Zim and/or SA) would do well to understand that Africa is different from UK. God bless Africa.
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http://ambassada.podomatic.com/
London Sound System Roll Call feat: JAH SHAKA SOUND SYSTEM
I and I build a cabin;
I and I plant the corn;
Didn't my people before me
Slave for this country?
Now you look me with that scorn,
Then you eat up all my corn.
We gonna chase those crazy -
Chase them crazy -
Chase those crazy baldheads out of town!
Build your penitentiary, we build your schools,
Brainwash education to make us the fools.
Hate is your reward for our love,
Telling us of your God above.
We gonna chase those crazy -
Chase those crazy bunkheads -
Chase those crazy baldheads out of the town!
Here comes the conman
Coming with his con plan.
We wont take no bribe;
We've got to stay alive.
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According to a BBC report (now removed - probably due to government embarrassment - but viewable here, the UK is giving a £480m support package to Pakistan.
Bearing in mind that nuclear-armed Pakistan is one of the most corrupt countries in the world, why don't we just transfer the funds to their leaders' Swiss bank accounts?
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205
He is more than likely in Afghanistan.
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Nick does a regular blog of primary material and he writes well. I don't always agree when he goes chasing after the bling and some of the moderation around here is a bit iffy, but a little gratitude and remembering he does have other responsibilities would be helpful.
This topic was better when folks were focusing on the substance and sharingsome personal experience. The disruption and attitude that's started is just so much trolling. It can be hard but the best thing to do is ignore it.
...
I'm a bit pushed to think of anything useful I can add to this topic. But, the core issues of leadership, cooperation, and capital growth that flow from the core topic are interesting and worth reflecting on. I'm just going to Zen out on that one. People can want too much or rush too much, and I've learned that letting go and just letting stuff work its magic works well enough: do more by doing less. Funny one, that.
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Actually I am a sad Billy-no-mates, that why I read, and contribute to, Nick's Blog.
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Oh, noes. We're busted.
Dude, the first rule of Fight Club is don't talk about Fight Club. Aw, man. You've just gone and blown the gaff on everything. There's enough truth in that to clear this place out like Vick's Sinex. What are we gonna do now, eh? Didn't think of that did you, smartypants.
Okay! Okay! Nothing to see. Move along.
*wave* *wave* *wave*
Phew. That was close.
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our backs our now against the wall
this is a warning
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kikidread
only a honky would post such awful prose!
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Nick:
What can the world do about the tensions in Zimbabwe and, how to also help the people in the country also?
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222. At 7:15pm on 13 Dec 2008, runskippyrun wrote:
kikidread
only a honky would post such awful prose!
I'm no honky skippy (sorry)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
When we eventually get this Labour lot out they won't be returned for at least a hundred years. They have wreaked so much havoc.
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When you girls learn that it is not very macho to blame the current gobernment for every trouble then perhaps you might learn some reality and maybe stop sounding do silly.
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Nick,
I am listening to the early morning news to the effect that Gordon Brown is now in India and is going on to Pakistan.
Well this confirms my earlier thought that there will be a spring general election. He is chasing the ethnic minority vote.
His lack of action over Zimbabwe is consistent because from what I understand from comments concerning immigration and asylum seekers the Home Secretary has raised concerns over the well documented events in Zimbabwe.
To bring in a contemporary event this country is geting just like Strictly Come Dancing. The programme has become a metaphor for our broken society with a rather overweight older man being up against attractive young people, and winning votes despite himself.
The fiasco last night also is a portence of what will happen in the Spring General Election. Sorry folks it's a tie, there is no winner so there you go, we will continue as before, a government of national unity, the voters are treated as gullible idiots.
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I've had enough of these moderators so I'm referring them to the BBC Trust, as there's gross dissatisfaction on all the blogs. They apply their rules blindly, without any understanding of their subjects, and without using any of the discretion they're allowed. They're welcome to ban me, I'll create another avatar and post under a different name.
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# 226 flamepatricia
History is a good tutor.
We welcome a new government, then become disappointed by them, then become alarmed at their despotism and can't wait to vote them out. And the cycle begins again with the other lot.
Twas ever thus, twill ever be.
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My 229 has been referred to the moderators for daring to notify you that I have formally instigated disciplinary proceedings against them. That is exactly why I have flipped, they delay relevant postings so long they distort the logical structure of our arguments, they remove valid arguments, they generally foul up much more than they contribute.
It is in the nature of a site like this that there will be a number of adversarial positions. Their role is to simply take the heat out of the debate, and the first step of that is to warn correspondants, not to shoot their postings.
I'm not complaining for myself, but because I see a pattern across all the blogs, cases being destroyed by youngsters who're frankly unqualified to act as editors in the way they are doing. This and the delays they are causing is destroying coherent argument.
My 229 was carefully checked before posting to see that it did not contravene any House Rules other than off-thread, and that one's indefensible because I'm protesting about their interference with the threads.
The point of excluding foreign languages, for instance, is to stop incomprehensible abuse. This is why it's an optional House Rule, but it isn't being applied with discretion. English is itself a hybrid of other languages, and can invent words, see the flexicon thread on Magazine Monitor.
As the moderators can't be bothered to reply privately, then they must defend themselves to their bosses and the Trust.
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Stalin Man it is you who sound silly. Why would I want to be macho - does it hit a nerve?
I have just as much right to my opinions as you Stalin Man. And so, it seems, to a non British citizen living in America with more than a long nose into our country's politics.
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# 232 flamepatricia
Ah, there we have it.
Foreigners have no right to an opinion.
How very Tory!
Ideas have no boundaries ........ time to live in the real world beyond Daily Mail England.
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all those who feel like sending flamepatricia back to ex-pat co say- AYE
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Kinkyred.
I am English. My ancestors are traceable back to the fifteenth centure and beyond. My husband's family is traceable back to Hereward the Wake and I would not like to tell you who we really are as it might shock you!
I am most certainly not an ex pat. Whatever makes you think I am you stupid boy!
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The difference between Ska, Reggae and Rocksteady Music ...
One of my favorites was this, "Pata Pata Rock Steady" by Queen Patsy and Count Ossie. ...
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Vortex
If you read carefully I was saying that an American living over there who posts on here and is not a British Citizen (NOT ME) is apparently entitled to his/her opinion too. Strange they have an interest in our politics but hey, strange things happen over pond.
What part of that sentence don't you understand? I am not knocking foreigners, you may well be one yourself, I don't know and don't much care actually.
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flamepatricia
Are you one of those christian, womens institute type tories? If you are then you, like your ilk, suffer from some of the worst predjudice I've ever personally witnessed or endured.
BTW. How do you know Charles is American? How do you know he's not as british as you claim to be?
I particularly like his post @ 220, made me really laugh. Yes, he has a different sense of humour but vive la difference!
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237 flamepatricia
I am not angry or flamed or anything but who is from the United states and what evidence do you have?
Just because you feel your arguement is lost. Doesn't mean you should make unfounded accusations. People can see through it. The reason for the link is your little comments of no substance seem to be aimed at winding up the left leaning commentors on this blog. I hope this encourages you to stop wasting yours and everyone else's time on this little game and for you to make better comments.
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#226 "When we eventually get this Labour lot out they won't be returned for at least a hundred years"
I don't normally agree with flamepatricia, but for once she might be right instead of just far-right, though not necessarily the right reasons.
Goverments often cause misery and chaos, but the public can have remarkably short memories.
However, the Labour Party has lost its reason to exist. It promised to "govern for the many, not for the few", but their real policy has been more like "bread and circuses", whilst they pandered to the rich and famous. Now even that has failed.
Most Labour MPs obediently went along with the trampling of civil liberties and their own principles. I can't see the rump of MPs left after the next election being successful in another political chamelion act. The membership is shrunk and demoralised. The trades union involvement is now the electoral kiss of death. Funny, the block vote was something that Bliar did not abolish - it was too convenient to protect him from ordinary members. So wherever the future of progressive politics does lie in the UK, I can't see it being with Labour.
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Evil Badger I am English. An English Rose rofl. I don't lie.
If you want to know if "Charles" is American why don't you ask him?
He doesn't write like an Englishman now does he?
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Ok Pat, when you are right you are right
But, Look at the thanks we get
Look what we do for them
The one who shit in the road
don't remember it
But the one who clean the shit
must remember it
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lame pat
"He doesn't write like an Englishman now does he?"
Which one? DH Lawrence? Shakespeare? Ben Elton? David Beckham? My uncle Wilf?
What a bizarre comment - how do Englishmen write?
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423
with better humour and wit than your naff attempts.
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Laugh you can't be that ignorant! I mean like the ordinary reasonably educated English person. Are you not one? Perhaps not.
He often refers to "you British" and uses American spelling and other clues. I am fairly observant.
You don't have to be a brain surgeon to pick it up and, of course, there are lots of clues out there on the internet but when mentioned they get moderated. Now, I wonder why?
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He would call himself Chuck stupid
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Another Africa failed state and the government is meant to do what?
Encourage another pop concert to drum up aid? Get some celebs to raise money to buy them medicine and food?
Talk tough on immigration and let these people in?
Perhaps if Labour had tightened up the immigration system earlier, there might be the capacity to take in refugees.
Now, with insufficient space, could we help? Has the public charity ran out hearing the lies upon lies of sorting out immigration yet fixing nothing?
Want to sort out Africa's troubles?
1. End EU trade tariffs against African products. Coffee, sugar, fruit, grain. End the disgusting dumping of EU produce onto the African market which destroys the indigenous markets.
Give these people the means and a fair market not handouts, aid and sympathy.
2. Good, sound governance is required. The UN should take a much stronger line, indeed so should the African Union.
Far too many African countries are ran by corrupt despotic leaders that care more for AK47s than food. Powers to freeze their assets & prosecute them.
Sure, pursue an elderly former right-wing leader from Chile yet fail to act on a lefty head of state like Mugabe?
Zimbabwe has a autocratic despot in charge but it's just one more African country that is a failed state.
Still, you can buy a wristband and sing along to the concert shown live on the BBC - and you've done your bit.
Why let them into the UK?
We should help them get their country back not take them in as it's destroyed in front of their eyes. We should have helped them get their country back years ago.
Instead we give hundreds of millions in assistance to two countries, both nuclear armed and one with a space programme.
What utterly disgusting priorities, then again, can you spell political expediency?
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lame pat
Instead of pedling your aggressive nonsense why not address your superior intellect to post 193 - which is what this blog is all about but somehow gets totally ignored by the petty infighting and childish speculation about other bloggers' nationalities - a matter of supreme irrelevance on an internet blog.
The whole issue of immigration and asylum is a complex and difficult subject. The idea that immigrants are bad and indiginous folk are good gets us nowhere.
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vor_tecks @233
Of course, foreigners have no right to an opinion.
And British people have the right to ridicule them (and their opinions) if they so fancy.
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249. At 7:36pm on 14 Dec 2008, MaxSceptic wrote:
vor_tecks @233
Of course, foreigners have no right to an opinion.
And British people have the right to ridicule them (and their opinions) if they so fancy.
+
that's not true. I checked the Law. in fact foreigners are very interesting people
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Anyone who rolls up just to libel or insult me gets ignored or their posts deleted. I don't reward trolling or flamebait with more than that, and if you keep it up it's only going to bites you harder in the ass.
You're already looking like the blog nutball and we know how that nuked David Davis career. Would you be happy with being framed like that if *you* were posting under your real name?
I try to cultivate tolerance and patience for strategic reasons: 1. It helps with focusing on quality and sociability. 2. My enemies end up destroying themselves with no effort. That's a win-win.
Morgan Tsvangirai seems to be playing a similar game against Mugabe, and Brown seems to be playing a similar game against Cameron. It's the tougher and slower option but quite, quite effective.
End of lesson.
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Foreigner was an amazing band
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flamepatricia @241
Where in my post did I say that you lie? Rather interesting that you should bring the subject up.
I have been using the internet since 1995 and my use of language has become quite net oriented, I notice the same with the language Charles uses. That doesn't preclude him being british and further illustrates your predjudice.
Predjudice being the interesting term as it means pre-judgement of another person or thing without actually knowing what that person or thing is really about. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prejudice
On topic, I feel real sympathy for the people of Zimbabwe who are truly stuck in an awful situation. Those people are just like us, the majority of them are decent people, just like us, with a minority of less salubrious people, just like us.
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That's about the shape of it. Mugabe has been a strongman at home and used some effective PR to keep his own backyard quiet.
The consensus opionion of myself and friends is that SA was pursuing a stealth racism policy and losing skillsets by the whites leaving. With Mandela in the ground we assumed it would end like Zim.
Britain has the legal right to take control of Zim if the government acts unconsitutionally. That point was passed some time ago. Personally, I favour a plan that removes Mugabe and detoxifies things on the ground. Whether that's a civil or military action isn't a call I'd like to make but a successful action could form a template for a future UN hitsquad for failing states.
Some folks will disagree but Ian Smith is a personal hero of mine. It's arguable that his white rule was wrong and he tried to cling on too long, but his comment that he was committed to acting in the best interests of Rhodesia has stuck with me.
Maybe it's just me, but I was a bit so-so about the Palistinian situation as well until I watched a programme where regular folks were describing the situation on the ground and saw some hot babe doing the language translation. I guess, it just made the situation understandable and triggered a positive emotional reaction. Up until then I was pretty much dead on the thing.
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I 'mis-typed' @249
I meant to write
Of course, foreigners havea right to an opinion.
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#254 I do disagree - Ian Smith's contemptuous attitude to the majority population in Zimbabwe helped create the political conditions for Mugabe to flourish. I have rather more respect for Sirs Roy Welensky and Garfield Todd who really did try to improve the lot of all the people under their care.
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254 CEH
"Some folks will disagree but Ian Smith is a personal hero of mine. It's arguable that his white rule was wrong and he tried to cling on too long, but his comment that he was committed to acting in the best interests of Rhodesia has stuck with me."
Credit where it's due, Charles, a good clear post for once (aside from the final paragraph).
I have a modicum of respect and sympathy for Smith. He certainly acted with belief in what was right and more than had the measure of the Wilson administration.
In the end, I think he did more harm than good ("no majority rrrule in my lifetime") and actually allowed Mugabe to develop a power base and into the monster he has become.
But I also remember hearing with sadness of Smithy's final expulsion from the Zimbabwe parliament on the BBC World Service.
An earlier transition to a moderate and able leader, with the kind of full training and support denied to the other "first generation" African leaders - as many of his (white) contempories were backing - could have bequeathed a model for the rest of the continent.
I bought a copy of "Bitter Harvest" when it first came out in HB. A good read, but I must say dear Smithy suffered from selective memory.
There. Left a big clue to my real name.
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Nick,
we know that one of the reasons why the West cannot take action against Zimbabwe is because of our involvement in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
Tonight, I learnt that my comments over Iraq have been wrong, there is now freedom and democracy in that country. Where is my proof I hear you all say.
Well, I saw the news tonight and a person threw his shoes at the President. Yes, the President was insulted in the only way that a true Iraqi knows. He threw his shoes at the President of America, size ten shoes apparently.
All the blood , spilt, all the lives damaged, all the money spent, and for what? So that a man can throw his shoes at the President.
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#258 The overwhelming proportion of the blood spilled and lives damaged has been Iraqi. The man himself had been kidnapped and beaten up by a militia. He is still alive so he is a lucky one.
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I was thinking of some young black Rhodesian girl (still can't quite handle the Zimbabwe thing) and it triggered a similar thought about the Palestine issue.
Make love not war.
Gawd, did I just say that? *slaps head*
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#259
Who lets the militia operate. Who pays the militia. Who controls the militia. Who pays for the private security firms. As the armies withdraw it will the private us/uk contractors who will run Iraq.
You just look at what General Sir Mike Jackson now does, since his reirement from the army. You look at how many former SAS work for private security firms.
The same could happen in Zimbabwe, when it falls it will be a bloodbath with revenge attacks and civil war. This is going to be a disaster, because the Zimbabwe people do not have a religion, like being a Pakistani Moslem, to threaten the security of the world.
I mention Pakistani only because that is what I am being told by the Prime Minister.
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Come on Nick - where's your blog on the ONS chief's rebuke to the Governement regarding the leaked knife crime statistics?
Were you one of the people who received this 'priviliged briefing'?
After your frequent blogs on the Green arrest and fallout your silence is a bit surprising on this matter?
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Where is the Dear Leader when we need him.
The Dear Leader promised to put an end to child poverty.
The Dear Leader promised that the Zimbabwean election was the wrong result and Mugabe should go.
The Dear Leader wiped out Third World debt.
The Dear Leader promised an end to boom and bust.
The Dear Leader said the Golden Rules were sacrosanct.
But the Dear Leader has nothing to say about Zimbabwean refugees? Surely in his wisdom he will ome up with something? Maybe just a little bit of congestion charging?
Call an election.
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The more one thinks about it the more obvius the solution to Zimbabwe's problems...
They need the Dear Leader.
The Dear leader could give them a whole new economy; he could make their central bank independent; he could deregulate the banking system; he could give everyone 125% mortgages and encourage them to have the highest level of personal indebtedness in history; the Dear Labour could return the savings ratio to zero where it belongs.
The Dear Leader could then introduce a targets system into the Zimbabwean Education and Health services so even of nothing improves they would still be able to meet all their targets.
Thenext step would be for the Dear Leader to reform the benefits system of Zimabawe introducing an incapacity benefit for anyone who had so much as chipped a finger nail to be given unlimited time off on full benefits. A sure start system would be introduced so people would be able to ahve as many children as possible and still be able to afford all their booze and fags.
By this sage all Zimbabweans could be issued with British passports because the two countries would be interchangeable; the Dear Leader would have completed his task. All superfluous differences would have been irradicated.
Call an election.
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I guess it had to happen...
Even Nick if finding it difficult to find anything good to say about labour or bad to say about the tories...
Hence... nothing to write...
Nick - how about something on mandleson/oleg/eu-tarrifs? you never did finish that one off.
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Foreigners have a right to an opinion of course they do but it is more pertinent and credible for British citizens who live here and pay taxes here are eligible to here AND pay the BBC Licence fee for goodness sake (!!!) to have more clout and credibility but it can be quite amusing hearing a foreigner's point of view even if it is a little mixed up at times! If they are not a British Citizen and are living abroad then - excuse me but WHY?
Put it this way - would you, as an English, British whatever your handle, be remotely bothered to continually write on the blog of, say, America, without some ulterior motive / agenda?
I smell a rat.
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Hot news from the Dear Leader on how to address the Zimbabwe crisis.
The Dear Leader recommends sll the Zimbabwean gold reserves are dumped in the marekt as soon as possible and with as much fanfare as possible.
The Dear Leader recommends the creation of a million public sector jbs with immediate effect all with full final salary pension provision.
The Dear Leader recommends the searching of opposition parties offices without a search warrant 'just in case'.
The Dear leader recommends the bottom rate of taxation is doubled for reasons of equality.
The Dear Leader recommends the detention of the innocent without charge for 42 days as an immediate imperative.
The Dear Leader has saved the world and does not wish the lucky pople of Zimbabwe to be excluded form his wisdom.
Call an election.
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More suggestions are coming in from the Dear Leader for a solution to the problems of the good Zimbabwe people whom he so dearly wishes to help. (like he has helped all people who will listen to his wisdom)
The Dear Leader recommends that Zimbabwe rejects all offers of help from the German people who reject the Dear Leader's reflationary package as 'crass and unworkable'.
The Dear Leader wishes to express to the people of Zimbabwe that supply side economics has officially died as has the deregulated economy of the bullying and now Zimbabwe friendly ThatcheriteReagonomics.
The Dear Leader is disappointed that he has yet to have an economic model named after him but is hopeful of reaching a solution to the problem and suggests as an interim measure 'Borrowalotonomics'.
Should this new economic model not succeed the Dear Leader suggests 'Borrowevenmoreonomics'.
Rapid adoption of this model by the good people of Zimbabwe should avoid all problems the Dear Leader has suggested.
Call an election.
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im sorry but surely the best way for us to solve this now is to send in UN troops to remove Mugabe. we've tried to use diplomatic options which have failed so surely for the sake of the people of Zimbabwe we need to remove this despised tyrant who has brought his country to its knees?
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The Dear Leader issues an unprecedented official apology to the people of Zimbabwe.
"my humble apologies go to the leaders of the Zimbabwe nation who have successfully trashed their currency. I have been doing my level best to emulate your efforts but so far am only responsible for a thirty percent collapse against the Euro and the dollar in six months. I assure the people of Zimbabwe I shall be doing my best to get the pound down even further"
"One of the proposed solutions to bringing the pound to its knees will be the borrowing of billions of pounds according to my new economic doctrine 'notthegolenrulesonomics' "
Good luck with all you efforts to debase the currency.
Call an election
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Jonathan Steele has a good opinion on a positive solution to the Zimbabwe question that shys away from the military option. I think, it's possible a deal like he suggests could work. The only issue is the form of words and whether everyone signs up to it, but it helps circumvent what might otherwise be disasterous groupthink.
The Prime Minister is taking a positive view of the similarly difficult Palestinian question. My kneejerk view is that I'd rather see a unified state and for the different religious and ethnic groups get along. Most Israelis are Jewish by religion not ethnicity (?) so I'm thinking that if everyone calms down and "lets the market decide" they'd all be happier.
Meanwhile, David Cameron is "getting tough" on financiers suspected of wrongdoing and currying favour with small business while neglecting the difficulties of folks on welfare. Again, I'm not persuaded he has the sort of nuanced and kind enough attitude that I'm looking for. So, that's a big fail for Cameron... again.
Buddhist "correct action" has a lot going for it.
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More Zen Buddist words of wisdom from the Dear Leader and his Zanulabour party to the dear leaders of Zimbabwe.
"Always remember to turn left. Particularly when boarding aeroplanes. Wise man turn left to avoid hoi polloi that voted him into power"
Call an election
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ceh
can't you learn to moderate yourself?
I think you need to stop being soooooo
precocious, it's quite a sad trait/personality disorder, especially for such a young and virile buck as yourself...
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Nick,
surely the answer is for Mugabe to set-up a Ponzi pyramid selling scheme. Then he could make billions and disappear to Switzerland.
Either that or the world could have a grand shoe throwing day, where pictures of Mugabe are held up in all towns and cities throughout the world and then everybody could throw shoes at him.
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Robinson you are a Labour stooge and should start being even a little bit less obvious in your constant attempts to re-elect the "burglar who has been asked back to mend the locks" or the "fireman who started the fire". Brown caused much of this - Mandleson is just plain devious. Focus on one of them for 5 minutes.
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Somebody above shouted :
ALL IMMIGRATION MUST STOP
Must all EMIGRATION from Britain also STOP.
Or is it different when Brits want to go and live abroad?
Ian Murray
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Flamepatricia
I'm afraid there aren't anymore jobs in the colonial service these days. Your posts on this discussion betray an utter ignorance of African matters and a deep rooted bigotry.
No matter how bad things get in Zimbabwe, the argument that things were better under apartheid will never hold water. Bad governance is never ever an excuse for rascism and a person's future being determined by their colour.
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# 249 MaxSceptic
With your correction at # 255 I agree with you entirely.
Had flamepatricia said that, whilst being astonished I would have agreed with her.
But she didn't and I didn't.
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# 266 flamepatricia
You assume that the only solutions to British problems can be envisioned by British people? What chauvanisitic and patronising tosh.
I spent a long time on Justin Webb's blog during the run up to the presidential election in the USA, and eventually had to compliment the participants on the quality and open-mindedness of the debate. There are right and left wing nutters in every blog of course, but the level of discussion was immeasurably higher than the Brit-centric blogs like this one.
There are pleasurable exceptions which I always find thought-provoking and/or amusing, but I have to wade through a lot of dross to find them.
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Zimbabwe
A white mans heaven
Is a black mans hell
proof heaven and hell exist on planet earth.
reality revelation time
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Its gets embrassing to read your blog, you are always looking at negative comments for the Tories and even in the most differcuit times, were Labour have made the biggest cock up you always find something positive to say. Nick the British people consist of Tories, Labour and Liberal and we all pay our TV license and we expect a more balanced view, if not you and your other cronies should be sacked.
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When our great leader says three quarters of terrorist incidents have links with Pakistan we have to ask the question - why are not the Western powers preparing to invade?
Bush and Blair had less reason to attack Iraq. Apart from copious amounts of the liquid gold. Iraq was never a base for terrorists.
Saving the world is such hard work and involves selective judgements.
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Trojan Calypso Box Set
undemocratic rhodesia
this is a fact
its undemocratic
just like that
have them suffering
as much as they can
basic rights of true democracy
is the rule of the majority
not rule by dictatorial policy
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#5 T A Griffin (TAG)
Zimbabwe does have oil. But it is not a large enough producer to influence the currency that oil is traded in internationally.
Iraq and Saudi Arabia are the two largest oil producers and iraq was offering to sell oil in any currency people wanted to pay in and was giving rebuilding contracts to the Germans and french over the americans and english.
After years of sanctions not having a effect we and the US invaded to restore the dollor currency and to assure US and UK companies got rebuilding contracts from when we blew it up the first time and the second time.
So we did steal all their oil but not in a conventional sense a thick republican voter could understand.
We took ownership of their trading ability and with that we could steal all we wanted.
Its called economic terrorism and the US has been doing it for a very long time.
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We don't want no racism
We don't want apartheid oh no no
We don't want no partiality yeah
So run come come
Stand up and chant it
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It is simple; just stop all imigration. Instruct all consuls and embassies to stop issuing visas. Anyone arriving with a visa will then be known to have forged documents.
Remove all illegal immigrants. I really cannot see the problem if police, ustoms and immigration officers are doing their jobs properly. If they are not - fire them and charge them under the official secrets act which they have all signed.
Far too many people are not doing the job they are being paid for and an unemployement level of 3 million or more will help to select better employees.
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Lord Mandelson clearly has the Tories worried. He has only been back a few weeks, their lead in the polls virtually wiped out and the so- called Shadow Cabinet in total dissaray. You have seen nothing yet. He is a real professional, and in sharp contrast to the ex spin doctor leading the Tories whose only real job was spinning for Carlton Communications, they went bust owing millions.Norman Tebbitt recognised talent and was the reason he offered Peter the world to run the Tory machine.
I am not aware that he has ever been charged with any criminal offence, that, once again is in sharp contrast to the two Tory crooks Lords Archer and Black both introduced into the Upper House by the spam hoarder from Grantham.
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Moderators,
Dear Sirs,
My above comment was intended for todays story. If it could be transferred it would be much appreciated.
Thank you.
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Which group do you belong?
The first - Well meaning but having no idea of how things really work. That is to say not knowing why there is so much emphasis on how good it was under white rule and how on how giving land to black people is the same as starving them. The group that does not understand that sanctions kill and that this is the intention. Read on ZIDERA AND THE LIKE. Think about it.
or
The second group - well aware of the importance of maintaining control of the resources of former colonies which is to say land. Understanding that sanctions such as ZIDERA are powerful tools that can bring a nation to its knees in that they block access to WORLD BANK IMF etc. All countries need to borrow money in order to invest in agriculture and the rest of it.
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Terrorising your opposition MPs, being unelected, destroying the economy, having a currency which is increasingly worthless by the day, blaming other countries/people for all your own mistakes, locking people up without charge when you don't like their political views, a state media which reports your spin/views without challenge/analysis.
Mugabe could learn a lot from Brown.
I say let the Zimbabweans into the uk, and let them join the rest of us in trying to help oust/unelect our own mad unelected despot.
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