Oft-asked question
Long before the arrest of Damian Green, senior Conservatives were given legal advice about the difference between receiving leaked documents and inducing civil servants to leak them. This suggests that they were well aware of the danger - political as well as legal - of either placing (or "grooming", in the phrase used by the police) political spies within the Whitehall machine.
This goes some way to explaining the answer to that oft-asked question: why was a senior Tory politician arrested and held by police for nine hours when other opposition politicians, like the young Gordon Brown were not - even when they boasted of the leaks they received?
The police who cross-examined Mr Green, the Conservatives' immigration spokesman, suggested that he had not simply received leaked documents but had, in their controversial phrase, "groomed" the civil servant who allegedly leaked them - a man who had been a Tory activist and who applied for jobs in Mr Green's office. The Home Office called in the police after the leaking of 20 politically sensitive documents.
The Home Secretary has refused to apologise for the police's actions. Indeed, Jacqui Smith has told colleagues that she doesn't believe that the police did anything wrong.
However, the leader of the Commons, Harriet Harman, has made clear her determination to investigate both the law under which Mr Green was arrested and the processes which led the Commons authorities to allow the police to search his Commons office.
What explains the difference? Well, 25 years ago, Ms Harman - then a civil liberties lawyer and young opposition MP - was taken to court by the Home Office for - you guessed it - leaking court documents.
This is adapted from the script of my piece on this morning's Today programme.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~24~RS~)
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Tip-top dog-whistle choice of words again there by those driving the media narrative.
'Grooming'. We all know what that is referring to.
So what if this civil servant was a Tory activist. Are we expected to believe that Gordon Brown's long list of leaked memo's when in opposition were furnished by some apolitical civil servant?
'Grooming'? Mandelson is back up to speed I see. Maybe Smith won't look as haggard as she did on Friday night. Man, she looked like her knees had buckled and she was being held up as she gave her non-denial.
'The police have already told you that no member of the cabinet was informed'.
Nice try Jacqui but I saw through that one straight away.
The question remains 'Did you know?' Just because the police have said you didn't know doesn't make it true. It doesn't make it a deliberate police lie either. After all they might not be aware that you knew. Or the chap who gave the statement might not be aware that you knew.
So. Has Jacqui answered the straight question yet or is she still referring us to what the police said?
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Jackie Smith should apologise for this. If she doesn't, she should be sacked - along with Michael Martin!
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Ah, I see the BBC/Labour spin machine has now gone into overdrive!!! Shame on you.
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Who was Brown's mole?
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Nick,
An urgent investigation into the whole affair is needed.
Dominic Grieve's 50 questions of the government need to be examined together with the laws and process you mention.
Clearly a Lord Hutton, narrow terms of reference, whitewash will not be not acceptable.
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What Jacqui smith said is disgraceful, she should resign. She is unfit to be Home Secretary.
Nick, one question that begs investigation. Did the civil servants who leaked documents to Gordon Brown whilst he was in opposition benefit in any way? Jobs with the Labour Party perhaps or with the Smith Institute?
If you are a journalist and not a Labour-mothpiece you should be looking into this.
Here's a relevant tip....follow the money.
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I hope that the Government look after the Home Office whistle blower better than they did Dr David Kelly.
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Is there a conspiracy within the ranks of BBC journalists not to go for the political kill? Andrew Marr had Jackboot Smith on the ropes almost pleading to be put out of her misery and he did not press the bugging issue a bit further and then changed the subject. Unbelieveable - why you take their word that they did not know. If the Mayor of London and the Leader of the Opposition knew, it is no credible for the government to say they did not know. Who will rid us of this turbulent government?
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#5 duhbuh
Good question.
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Why on earth have I been moderated? I only said that when I was at the Treasure years ago we lived in fear of the Official Act.
This is so bizarre, this moderating.
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Dear Nick ]
Which ever way you look at this it is all wrong, ALL WRONG?
Look at the case of the Utility Companies who are forcing entry into peoples homes to fit Meters, even by breaking and damaging the doors in the process.Look at the case ofd Journalist Salley Murrer, and her two colleages, again threats by the police, just what are we into her the police are acting like the gestapos and so are the utilities, this is wrong all wrong. WE ARE IN A POLICE STATE, AND ITS GETTING WORSE, THE ARREST OF AN MP, for doing his job, is unbelievable, totally unbelievable A PRESIDENCE HAS BEEN SRE,
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Are we facing another Dr David kelly thanks to this government's relentless bullying of anyone with any principles?
The political culture in this country has been bankrupted by newlabour who failed to recognose the difference between police and state for their own ends.
'Grooming' has the most disgusting Mandelson and Campbell spin to it.
Call an election.
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It was a bright cold day in November, and the clocks were striking thirteen.
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What difference does it make whether the leak comes from a civil servant, a mole or an opposition spy? This is information which the public has a right to know, as long as it does not compromise national security.
I don't understand what is so difficult to understand. Their one and only duty is to serve us. We have every right to know how competently they are doing it.
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Nick, you say:
'This goes some way to explaining the answer to that oft-asked question: why was a senior Tory politician arrested and held by police for nine hours when other opposition politicians, like the young Gordon Brown were not - even when they boasted of the leaks they received?'
1. You suggest you know that Gordon Brown didn't induce civil sevants to leak documents?
2. How do you know this?
3. How do you know that every leak isn't got by inducing civil servants?
4. Surely, the only way to know the origin of leaks is to investigate EVERY leak.
5. Why isn't every leak investigated?
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How did you come across the information about the Tories seeking legal advice Nick, was it leaked to you?
Don't get yourself muddled up in this hypocrisy, read Lord Rees-Mogg's comment and stand up to them for goodness sake.
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Jack Straw meanwhile is very surprised by The Police Action against The Right Honorable Mr. Green. Hardly cuts it does it?
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Unfortunately in the world today it's all about deniability, not responsibility.
It means that government ministers, who can, and should, be held to account are ceding responsibility to unelected officials. They seem to be being told to get on with the job, and don't leave the minister vulnerable.
Personally I am unhappy with this state of affairs, since there is no apparent control and no mechanism to exercise it.
Now what exactly does grooming mean here? Encouraging somebody to betray their trust, or follow their conscience?
Our conscience is what we need to focus on. Previously people who have leaked documents, of various types and to various MPs, have invoked their conscience as being the driving force.
I wouldn't put it beyond belief that people with certain beliefs, and it doesn't matter what they are, have been encouraged to take positions where they may come across something useful, and by definition be harmful to the authorities whoever they may be. It has always been so, and probably will in future, unless this heavy handed approach is allowed to contunue.
I suppose the thought controllers, and we know who they are, will be following the grooming line assiduously, all the way to their own detention cells in due course.
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This moderating is most unfair. Looks like the Labour government are indeed controlling the BBC. Control freaks.
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#12 flamepatricia
I've seen this recording. I couldn't believe it at first, but after watching it two or three times it could be plausible.
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"The Home Office called in the police after the leaking of 20 politically sensitive documents."
So a leak about a serious breach of security within the Home Office that was being covered, up was revealed.
About 3 years ago I wrote to my Conservative MP about a major hole in the aviation security system. He passed it on to the relevant minister. I never got a reply from the Minister and neither did the MP. Lo and behold last year it was revealed that there was a hole in aviation security. Surprise Surprise.
Lets get one thing straight. This government isn't interested in the hard graft of running the country. It is however fully occupied by "seeing to be running the country". That is why everything in the UK is now falling apart from the economy to education, health and even loss of immigration control. The spin machine is extolling success while the system is collapsing all around them.
This government is not fit for purpose. We are to all intents and purposes a failed state. Welcome back to the fold Peter Mandelson, spin your way out of the current situation.
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The leaker wrote to the Tories offering himself up.
In any event there is no offence of grooming. And there is no evidence he did. Just innuendo.
They have still dragged up an 18th century law to apply to one man.
Your post is a disgrace to you and a credit to the skills of Campbell and Mandelson.
If the facts don't fit smear the man.
Dr Kelly.
John Charles De Menezies.
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Nick,
Is this story now more important than the EU saying Britain is nearer to join the EURO than ever before?
Is this story more important than 3 police offcers vs 1 drunken squaddie on CCTV?
Is this story more improtant than why my blog of yesterday 823 was referred to mediators?
Is this story more important than the Brown Broadcasting Corperation and it's chief reported/source, Mr R. Mandyson?
Is this story more important than AD stating his tax and spend package ain't gunna work??
A good day to bury bad news, me thinks!!!!!
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Here Nick,
when did grooming, apart from it's connotations with paedophilia, become an offence?
Which insidious act of parliament put that into the statute books?
Can you, and other journalists of an inquisitive nature, be caught in the same trap?
Are there any other little goodies waiting to bite us?
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According to Jack Straw (and Jacqui Smith)
"We don't have a police state here, despite many of the ridiculous newspaper headlines. A police state would be where ministers were directing an investigation... "
Interesting....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6180945.stm
2006: "The Serious Fraud Office has dropped a corruption probe into a defence deal with Saudi Arabia, after warnings it could damage national security.
Lord Goldsmith said the decision had been made in the wider public interest, which had to be balanced against the rule of law. "
So according to Straw and Smith by their definition, we've been living in Police State for 2 years.
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"Ms Harman - then a civil liberties lawyer ..."
Yes, and Gordon Brown was once a champion of liberty; but that was way back in, let's see, 2007 !
Quote of the day is (strange to relate) from Jackie Ashley in the Guardian:
"The Home Office loads ever more powers on the police, and seeks to turn its anti-terrorist and anti-corruption officers into a new kind of FBI. Then it runs away when these characters start barging into MPs' homes and offices. Who's really in charge?"
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Keep your Labour spin doctor friends happy by continuing the pathetic government line. Forget the lack of clear answers from Jacqui Smith yesterday incase your own little leaks dry up!
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Nick, you really haven't learned your lesson from last week have you?
Why don't you/won't you whack the spotlight firmly on the government and ask the questions that blogs have been asking for days?
Stand up and be counted.
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Nick you missed a good photo shot opportunity here!
After your recent blogs I feel you should have been included in this shot!
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GIVEN THE PREDATORY NATURE OF THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT IS IT ANY WONDER THAT THE CONSERVATIVES HAVE TAKEN LEGAL ADVICE.
ITS CALLED COMMON SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Remember DAVID KELLY etc etc
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There are policeman writing in all the papers today explaining why it was wrong to arrest.- regadless of'grooming' which is not admitted nor is there any evidence you can point to of it, since the guy introduced himself to the Tories, they didn't go out to find him.
But the BBC print the version signed off by the Labour Party.[Lord A Campbelson]
When I remember the way you were ready to interpret everything in the Deripaska affair that cast Osborne in the worst possible light and dug for everything I am appalled the poor journalism here.
Where is your report that he wrote to the Tories offering himself up and was passed on to Green?
Where is your report that the DPP was not informed even though we were initially led to believe he had?
Where is your report debunking the fact that Smith implied there were national security issues even though there has been no evidence or link to any such material and Green?
Where are your reports on the inconsistencies of Ms Smith's statement?
YOU GO FOR THE RED HERRING WHILST THE REAL ISSUES GO UNREPORTED.
I have never been more angry with you.
I mean really really angry.
I really don't know if its naivety or cravenness.
I do know that the public service broadcaster does not serve us.
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WHICH SPIN DOCTOR GAVE YOU THIS LINE??
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Looks like someone else has been "groomed": the reporter who, on Friday, really didn't know what to say on this seems to have developed much firmer opinions over the weekend, eh?
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The bags under Jacqui Smith's eyes on Sunday morning revealed the stress she knew she was under from this blunder.
My problem with all of this: The desperate measures the Labour government is prepared to stoop to in order to hang on to power. They remember the 18 years in opposition - and they don't want to repeat it. Therefore they will try any trick in the book - and break any rule - especially those rules not specifically written down in order to gain advantage. Let's remember that the current Speaker should not be a Labour MP. Under long standing convention it should be an MP from another party. That was a classic example of new Labour ignoring long standing House of Commons conventions put in place over generations. I want to know what the government of the day (of any hue) is actually up to. History records the amazing antics the individuals who make up the government get up to. It's one reason why the SIS has departments keeping an eye on MP's. But even these Services are riddled with corrupt, game playing leaders.
The police are the group who managed to shoot dead several innocent people lately - so I'm not sure I trust them to get it right on any level at the moment. What I am certain about is that they should never have entered the Commons on the evidence presented so far.
What I want is for the investigation to actually stop.
I want Mr. Green?s papers, computers, phones and belongings handed back to him. Today, not tomorrow. The "evidence" they hold is clearly tainted. It is protected by Parliamentary Privilege. How would a Judge allow the ?tainted evidence? to be presented in Court? Any officer contemplating hanging on to these items and continuing the investigation should themselves be arrested - for they are the true Enemy of the State, by virtue of being a pawn on the Chess Board of a political act.
Someone needs to explain to me why an investigation cannot simply be shelved (ended, terminated)!
We need to reset the clock to the moment before the police entered the Commons. The assertion by Jacqui Smith, Gordon Brown and others, that ?they were not aware? of the police investigations is a nonsense. They betray the truth by the use of carefully crafted language to answer the questions posed by the press.
These senior politicians are surrounded by politically savvy aides. Pretending that you can?t see, or weren?t aware of the proverbial train coming down the track is no defence. What drivel!
It exposes is the lack of morals, lack of leadership and lack of integrity that makes us, the people of Britain, wring our hands in despair. Remember all the information exposed by the leaks was information the Labour government didn?t want discussed in the open because it contradicted the official line they continue to peddle. The strategy is designed to intimidate Civil Servants and make them think twice before they leak information that will damage the Labour leadership.
The solution to all these machinations? We need an election!
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Nick,
Please explain how a political party 'grooming' a civil servant if different to a journalist 'shmoozing' with politicians in the bars around westminister hoping to get a scoop?
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whatever D Green's crime was, it wasnt anything to do with terrorism...so i dont care who knew or didnt know i just think we should be told who ordered the counter terrorism squad to arrest and hold an MP... if they say it wasnt a political decision then prove it....show us the paperwork that lead to this sorry event.
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Make an honest choice Robinson, either declare yourself an apolitical BBC journalist or delare yourself a Government spokesman, but do not as one and claim to be the other.
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No-one believes this government any more. Their period in power has been one of spin, manipulation, lies, obfuscation...I could go on.
The Nu Labour project is dead. It has been replaced by Za Nu Labour.
Brown and Smith didn't know nuffing but Cameron and Boris did! This is just too ridiculous.
Time for an election.
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RE MODERATING
THIS IS AN ADULT BLOG & SHOULD NOT BE
MODERATED.
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#23 Flamepatricia
Moderation is unforately a misuse of the word in this instance.
By implication something moderate should be about halfway between good and bad, hot and cold, extrem left and extreme right.
In the context of this blog, and other BBC blogs, it is a means of ceding authority to a team of people who use their own judgement as to what may or may not be allowed.
This blog is intended to be political, albeit supportive of one flawed et of views, and is expected to elicit contrary views. Unfortunately the criteria on which moderation is applied are a series of catch all headings which almost militate against free expression.
I'm comfortable with bans on swear words, and making of libellous or slanderous comments, but anything else goes. Rabble rousing is part and parcel of our way of life, with Speakers Corner being the epitome of freedom of speech in our society. None of us is forced to follow, and if we don 't like what we hear, we can walk away.
Unfortunately there is a new thought abroad, which is to deny a platform to anybody whose views don't conincide with those whoe believe they are authorities.
That way lies a police state. There is no simpler way of expressing it.
My conclusion, the people who claim to moderate can be anything but.
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Well friends and a special mention for flamepatricia, it looks as if we are in for some more rather odd referring and removing. My own removal can only be explained by my calling The Home Secretary 'appalling'. Tread carefully.
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With reference to the claims of Stalinism..... didn't Stalin's opponents normally have a confession extracted under torture before receiving a bullet to the back of the head at Lubyanka Prison? It was even rumored that Stalin would sign the death warrants himself sometimes sitting-up to the early hours so that he could sign 5000 or so.
Apparently, Gordon Brown does work late, however, I don't think he's signed any death warrants.
Anyway, what is all this nonsense? A politician gets arrested as he's suspected of breaking the law and everyone's up in arms.
I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome him to the real World. Now, can we please get back to hearing about the 'real' Tories?
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Where did this snippet about 'grooming' come from?
Who is leaking that?
If it is part of an on-going police investigation, should you, Mr Robinson, be commenting on it?
Who is pulling your strings?
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Watch for the imminent news that this shower thinks we should join the Euro due to the poor performance of the pound.
Yes it's all part of :
http://infopatriots.blogspot.com/2008/01/aaron-russo-mad-as-hell-alex-jones.html
Banks in charge of the world, Police State. Under our very noses.
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Nick,
It's been highly interesting watching the coverage on this matter and reading the various comments it has sparked. I think the main problem that has arisen is the clear sense of bias people have noticed from the BBC (to be honest, a feeling that I share).
I note that you are defending yourself with the references to Churchill, and stating that several v high profile Labour MPs (Brown, Harmen et al) were guilty of leaking to the press during the 1980s, but that somehow this is different - as there is alleged "grooming" or "procuring" of the information.
Why then do you leave it at that? Where is your analysis of whether this was indeed different to the 1980s? You make no attempt to ask whether Brown or Harmen groomed leakers in the 1980s - it is presented to the public as if this were not the case, and that therefore this IS different.
Unless you can state that this is the case, you shouldn't give us that impression if you want to avoid accusations of bias.
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Ha ha - Tories up to their old tricks - ha ha
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Let's get to the heart of the issue of what really matters. The key issue here is that the police were allowed into the Palace of Westminster to rifle through an MP's office there and seize computer equipment and papers. This is a clear violation of Parliamentary privilege and the Commons authorities, including Speaker Martin, have serious questions to answer.
Also, it has been reported that a Labour Minister has suggested the Tories will not try to unseat the Speaker, since he would be replaced by another Labour MP. That is an outrageous suggestion, since prior to this awful Labour excuse for a Government, the Speaker was always rotated between the parties. Indeed, Betty Boothroyd was a Labour MP appointed under the Major Government - it caused outrage when another Labour MP (Martin no less) replaced her!
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Two things:
1) how do you know Brown didn't 'groom' a civil servant to leak information? Seeing as he wasn't arrested and interviewed by the police we don't know.
2) Harman wasn't an MP at the time she was arrested.
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Nick,
You are an embarrasment as a journalist-you are not objective nor unbiased-I regret contributing towards your salary-in fact I will cancel my licence fee this morning. The BBC was once one of the great pillars of British society-today it looks like something from Eastern Europe.
This is not objective journalism-this is propoganda!
Sad times.
Peter
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Reporters and MPs and the gnomes of WM groom each other for tit-bits.
It's the system.
So the police decided to investgigate ONE such case.
POLICE STATE!
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Harriet Harmon & Jack Straw's comments perhaps tell us a lot more than some might think.
Both have considerable legal experience in this area and will be very careful about the words they use and also will be mindful of collective cabinet responsibility.
I would summise the word surprised really means the following.
I wouldn't have done it, I can't believe they have done it and I can't defend it.
Perhaps much like to use of the words brave and courageous by Sir Humphrey Appleby in Yes Minister.
I would imagine there may well have been a Sir Richard Mottram moment or two in the Home Office over this.
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Here are three possible scenarios. Let's see if some of the ranters on this blog can tell the difference.
1. Tory activist approaches DG asking for a job. DG says no. TA gets job in Home Office and starts leaking to DG, asking "now can I have a job?". DG says no.
2. Tory activist approaches DG asking for a job. DG says no. TA gets job in Home Office and starts leaking to DG, asking "can I have a job now?". DG says that he'll see what he can do (e.g. safe Tory seat).
3. Tory activist approaches DG asking for a job. DG says yes, and suggests he gets a job in Home Office and leaks info to DG, with a firm promise of preferment if the Tories come to power.
(1) is completely legitimate, and no encouragement is being given. However, it would seem rather unwise to be accepting leaks which are so obviously party political (exactly what public good was served by leaking possible lists of labour rebels?). (2) is questionable, but probably not outside the law. (3) is way beyond what is acceptable and deserves prosecution.
Exactly how might the police distinguish between these possibilities, without taking steps to secure potential evidence before it can be destroyed? DG may have conducted himself as in (1), but if in fact he's behaved as in (3) and he's invited for interview, his first action will be to delete files, shred documents etc.
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There is a world of difference between a civil servant disclosing information for the greater good, and one who leaks for purely party political views
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Nick: this is not worthy of you. MPs - right, wrong and plain daft - should be allowed to challenge in public with information they receive in private. It is the 'making public' part that preserves democracy. If the publiciser gets it wrong, there goes their credibility on everything else. Check and balance. In this instance, the police seem to have got their timing horrendously wrong (if they were not being political) or viciously right (if they were being political). The first option is just stupid and requires immediate explanation in this politicised context. The second option is unacceptable.
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After watching the Jacqui Smith interview with Andrew Marr, and reading a spread of media that covered this issue, I?m not too worried about Damien Green being arrested. It?s not the best law and has generated some lurid headlines and comment but I can?t get worked up about this.
Some MP?s may have an intellectually romantic idea of parliament?s status but that?s as dumb as suggesting all MP?s are crooks. Likewise, there?s leaks with a public interest defence and others which may just be dirt digging for political advantage. From what I can tell, the police followed the evidence and acted within the law.
Between the Labour intellectuals mouthing off and shooting their own party in the back, the Tories being sneaky and getting caught with their fingers in the till, the media getting in a snit over self-serving faux principles, and the usual suspects scattergunning mud in the hope some will stick, it looks like just another day at the office.
We hear a lot of froth from people about government, but the two stories that did catch my eye were the banks total lack of entrepreneurship skills and big business milking people?s Direct Debit accounts. This strikes me as being a more useful focus to develop: it gets to the heart of the risk averse and greedy attitudes that have undermined the country.
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Nick,
so much has already been said about this matter but nobody seems to have questioned why a list of 42 Labour "rebels" was in the hands of Home Office officials.
I ask myself: is this a matter of national security or were they just waiting for the police to be "followed up"?
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See we are subject to censorship again.
The Police used the word "GROOMING"
WE MUST ASK WHO GROOMED THE BBC?
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what I dont understand is how Boris Johnson and, so it seems, David Cameron were told in advance of the arrest, but both the Speaker and Ministers did not. Is it credible that the police briefed the Leader of the opposition and the Mayor of London but not Ministers or the Speaker?
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it is about time the bbc and sky where imparcial at least bbc don't have brown in their adverts dose alan Bolton pay him or does the tax payer pay as usual are all political reporters threatened to be arrested under terrorism act can you imagine being locked up for 42 days for telling truth where's brown now noticeable by his absence jim oldham
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Last night in extraordinary scenes 10,000 armed police descended on Westminster to shoot the last remaining Opposition MP, holed-up in Committee Room 9. Lord Chief Justice Ian Blair explained: the MP was shot at 12:01, and sentenced, tried, charged, and arrested 5 minutes later. Home Secretary Smith said this was an example of how Labour had improved waiting times in the Criminal Justice System.
The MP had been overheard complaining that a full-stop was missing on page 567 of the Pre-Budget Report. A furious Chancellor Martin explained: this MP threatened to undermine confidence in version 540 of the National Economic Recovery Plan.
In other developments the Chancellor confirmed that he was intending to borrow 1.5 times world economic GDP on Tuesday, but predicted that the UK would return to trend growth on Wednesday enabling the debt to be repaid by Friday. Thereafter all debt would only be for sustainable investment.
And finally King Peter 1 was acclaimed winner of Strictly Come Dancing with 110% of the popular vote.
He knows nothing of these matters said the Prime Minister?s Official Parrot.
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dear Nick
When ever there is a major political row, it normally is a diversion for the main event, Some one is being lined up to be crucified and this time the Police are involved so they cannot be independant observers, Lets hope some Civil servant is being led to the Knackers yard, as was Dr David Kelly, who was totally left out in the Cold by the Politicians.OH yes THE HOME SECRETARY SHOULD RESIGN WHAT SHE HAS SAID IS UNFORGIVEABLE --- make no plans, she is now totally in damage limitaion mode, and any body, who gets in her way will be castrated.and hung out to dry.
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Oh, here come the apologists.....
"grooming".... So, that makes it alright then, eh Nick? You really beleive that?
Well, I used to think I could trust the BBC. Sorry mate, but I could no more call you a journalist than I could call myself a brain surgeon. I'm afraid you've just become another mouthpeice.
Are you not in the slightest embarrased about how all of this manipulation is tarnishing any credibility your profession may have had? Do you never think "This is not why I became a political journalist?"
Sorry. Not calling you a liar, but I can no longer rely on you to tell it how it is, rather than how you're told to tell it. The two are complete polar opposites.
Sad. Where is left for us to go to seek the truth? The objective, unvarnished truth??
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Nick
You may have been fed a clever line, but it doesn't wash.
1. If, as you write, the Tories sought legal advice re what was legal and illegal with respect to leaks, this would have been because they wanted to stay on the right side of the law: after all, having an MP arrested for breaking the law is the ultimate nightmare for any political party. (Or do you think that the entire Tory party is dishonest? Perhaps you shouldn't answer.)
The very receipt of such legal advice therefore makes it incrediably unlikely that Green did anything illegal: he knew the law in detail and he knew that breaking it risked his arrest, the ruin of his long career and possibly gaol.
Do you really think, knowing him as you must do, that Mr. Green is that reckless and stupid? It just doesn't strike me as at all credible from what I have read in the press about him. I very much doubt you think so either, but please tell us your view.
2. The notion that there is some tangible, fundamental difference between the conversations Labour MPs had in opposition with civil servants leaking material and those Mr. Green and no doubt other Tory MPs are having these dark days is also deeply flawed.
The Labour 'narrative' that you are trying to spin, namely that when Labour were in opposition 'we just received leaks', whereas today the Tories are 'conspiring and 'grooming' civil servants illegally to obtain leaks' just does not wash.
At the very best it is a difference of semantics, whereas the issues at stake are of fundamental principles: that of being able to hold the government to account, freedom of information, and the right to these former without intimidation from the Government or state via the police.
So, despite what you write, the semantic, even putative difference Labour are trying to spin does not go any way whatsoever towards explaining the oft asked question as to why a senior Tory politician was arrested and held for nine hours when other opposition politicians were not.
The BBC's 10.30 news last night even showed an opposition Gordon Brown looking proud and gleeful as he made public to the BBC a leak which he felt embarrassed the Tories when they were in government. You really think Brown didn't say thanks to his leaker and that if there was anything further that could be embarrassing to the Tories, he would value it? Give us all a break: yet Brown was never arrested.
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Excuses, excuses. What look's and feel's like a police state, probably is a police state.
Perhaps they can legislate to ensure their 'anti-terror law' is not used against 80 year old hecklers or BNP members with leaflets. Oops, nearly forgot, Icelandic Banks. 'Terrorism' has a distinct meaning. Typical of this treacherous, controlling government to use it in their fight against freedom, liberty and democracy - and especially useful when it contradicts their regime... Al la' Zimbabwe, over rule, people, elections, state control to cling to power.
World renowned BBC ? Now a political tool.
Oh how I long for a return of trust in politicians and faith in the police.
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what I dont understand is how Boris Johnson and, so it seems, David Cameron were told in advance of the arrest, but both the Speaker and Ministers did not. Is it credible that the police briefed the Leader of the opposition and the Mayor of London but not Ministers or the Speaker?
And if David Cameron and Boris Johnson did know, why didn't they protest to the Home Secretary and/or the Prime Minister?
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POST 50 EXTREMESENSE
Death Warrants???
IT HAPPENS MOST WEEKS we are fighting
two wars.
DAVID KELLY etc etc
The clever guy never signs them,theres no
BLAME then.
Maybe you will realise when you dont tow
the line. . . . . .
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So, not content with refusing to even report the most important story regarding our freedoms for many years (it's just been a 10 second aside at the end of each news program so far, with absolutely no explanation of the details), the BBC is now using slurs against anyone who disagrees with the Brown/Smith line.
I did think that by not reporting on the story properly the BBC were simply bowing to pressure from Brown/Smith to keep it quiet and to try and keep the public in the dark about what's been happening.
Now it seems that the BBC is actively spinning away word-for-word exactly what Mandelson/Campbell are telling them to do.
First you attack the messenger for telling the public the truth about the negligence and lies of the government. Then, when that doesn't work, you start to slur the people who confirm that the messenger was in the right.
You (the BBC) should hang your heads in shame. The public are not buying your distortion and government lies.
You have gone beyond a biased joke, and have become a truly sinister propaganda machine for a very sinister government.
You are not trusted by the people who pay your wages (ie the tax payers), and I hope that by 2010 you will no longer exist.
You have taken the goodwill of a historic organisation that is there to serve the public, and have twisted yourselves into a nasty propaganda machine which actively works against the public that you are supposed to serve.
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Green and Brown is not black and white.
Nick, you say the Conservatives received legal advice on the "difference between receiving leaked documents and inducing civil servants to leak them". Can you elaborate? You set this piece up to suggest that the Tories have overstepped the mark, but have not told us where the mark is.
You claim that this is the difference between Green and Brown.
Would saying to a potential mole, yes, I will be pleased to receive any documents that you believe the government has concealed, which are in the public interest, be overstepping the mark?
What about if Green (and Brown) had encouraged this... You would be serving the public in leaking documents that the Government has tried to conceal?
Nick, the Green and Brown is not black and white, it is a grey area. I would be careful how you spin it or you could end up red faced.
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76 bluntjeremy
Excellent post.
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There we go again - Nick endeavouring to justify the Labour stance on the issue. This position is indefensible.
There is no justification in treating a front bench MP the way he was treated, and thereafter trying to justify by springing hitherto unknown legal terms like 'grooming'.
It is about time BBC ensured that their reporters are objective and not led by party politics akin to the one Nick Robinson has taken to date on this issue.
Do I hear Tories writing to BBC?
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#55 Mr Curzon
Right on.
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The fact so many comments are being moderated gives me the impression that not many comments are complimentary to Mr Robinson.
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Cassius on the situation at Westminster and why Damian Green now bears the
responsibility for what happens next:
http://cassiuswrites.blogspot.com/2008/11/tale-of-three-parties.html
"For Gordon Brown and Jacqui Smith - Parliamentary supremacy is theoretical. It can, they imply, be temporarily suspended for "Police operational reasons" in the same way that Alistair Darling disposed of
Prudence at the PBR. To many this will be the most sinister utterance of the
story so far, but to Gordon and his spin doctors, so long as the poison and
innuendo are allowed to work their magic, February can't come slowly
enough."
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#56 Laughatthetories
It seems your postings seem to be some kind of anagram on part of your ID.
Have you got anything constructive to offer?
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#25
That's the interesting thing about conspiracy theories they are entirely plausible based on publicly available information / evidence and how you link them together.
They are fascinating to study and to watch them feed off themselves and grow based on partial information. Most fascinating is to see the integration (or not) of new information which directly contradicts the original conspiracy theory.
It is similar to reading the growth of the Mayan calander end of the world theory which is fundamentally based on a misinterpretation. (Which is basically similar to concluding that the world will end in 10000 AD because we only use 4 digits to write dates now, so no dates after 9999 will exist - therefore the world ends).
You have to dig into the detail to get to the fundamental issue.
Apart from very poor decisions and selection of wording which has obvioulsy occurred the furore over Damian Green's arrest is similar.
The alledged source of the leaks appears from the information to have been previously a Tory party activist (and nothing wrong in that) and had also applied to work with said MP.
When an investigation to uncover who might be leaking (in contravention of their contract of employment) the information it seems implausible that these two pieces of information did not come up.
The question then becomes what thought process or therorising went on within the investigation. If someone suggested that it might be non-coincidental to the leaking then I am sure police would have been duty bound to pursue it.
That it was badly executed and poorly thought out is very clear (which gives rise to the alternative conspiracy theories for those leaning the other way politically).
That someone in the investigation could not have thought up a more sensible way to ask the questions required than a very public arrest should be a matter of some internal review at the Met which I am sure the impartial chair of the MPA will facilitate.
Analysis of this issue is complex because it is still an ongoing investigation and therefore any risk of making available information which could prejudice the enquiry is clear.
For my part my reading of the information and analysis provided seems to point very clearly at the expected outcome.
i.e. this will result in no criminal charges being laid and that a review of the rules relating to similar potential actions will take place to ensure a better way of dealing with them in the future.
That an outcome could possibly be that the police could not investigate an MP without prior political consent of a minister or even at all is not a pleasant outcome - that really is a fascist state in the making.
Or should MPs be trusted to police themselves (they did such a good job with their own expenses after all) entirely or should it be handled only by MI5/6 and who should ask them to investigate (or should the decide for themselves - equally unappealing solution).
Of course no, the separation of police, judiciary and parliament is required and that such a tremendous mess has occurred, to my mind, indicates that this separation remains functional if imperfect (but what is?)
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The more we hear about this (or fail to hear about it, if you happen to watching the BBC News), the more sinister it gets.
There's now a clear attempt by Jacqui Smith and the police to smear Damien Green.
Jacqui Smith has said the she is not allowed to comment on the case or to interfere in the work of the police, but then in her interview yesterday went on to make allegations without offering any evidence for them, such as the claim that the police investigation is into 'systematic' leaks and that these leaks threatened national security. Yet all the leaks that have been publicly mentioned were clearly in the public interest and present no threat to national security - indeed, quite the opposite.
This is new information not previously mentioned by the police. If accurate, it can only have come from direct knowledge of the police case and involvement in it - which she has denied. If inaccurate, then it is an unwarranted smear against a MP who should never have been arrested.
By using the word 'grooming', which has been previously used only in cases of paedophilia, the police have begun a smear campaign against a leading opposition politician. What next? Faking evidence? If I were Damien Green, I wouldn't be worried about what the police are taking from my computer - I'd be worrying about what they might be adding onto it.
Even as recently as a week ago, I'd have laughed out of court the idea that the police would fake evidence to frame an opposition politician in the UK. But then a week ago, I'd have found the idea that the police would arrest an opposition MP for doing his job ludicrous too. And the stakes are now so high that the police and the government simply can't afford to bring back those computers without some helpful 'discoveries'.
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48
Well indeed, as we discuss the freedom of speech and the public's right to information I am amazed and gratified that your post has been deemed, very rightly, not to be off topic. And as for 47, as we contemplate this implications of Damian Green's difficulties, my pleasure at reading this post is only exceeded by my astonishment that it has not been moderated out, as were my efforts to publicise the very views you both urge with such clarity. Possibly today's moderation is beginning to nurture the moderate rather than suppress the reasonable.
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There is still no reporting demonstrating enthusiasm by either the Crown prosecution Service or the DPP, to take the Green case to court. Indeed, both Government organisations on Friday distanced themselves from the police action. They were involved at a preliminary stage, but this is the usual course of events, but DID NOT give any kind of formal go-ahead for subsequent police action.
Yet, when the police raided the House of Commons they told the sargeant of Arms, that the DPP had a solid case which allowed them to continue the raid. This was somewhat misleading - will the gaining of evidence by such duplicitous means actually be ADMISSABLE in court? Judges have thrown out cases for a lot less.
It looks like all established procedure has been thrown aside. Overseas reporting on this is scarce, I suggest embarassment would be the most significant inhibiting factor - UK is supposed to be an advanced country that created the cradle of democracy.... I am deeply ashamed to be British just now.
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Seeing as anything which goes against the government line is being moderated out of existence, will you ban this one I wonder?....
Gordon Brown is a lovely fluffy bunny, and Smith is a wonderful public servant. Ian Blair acted in an entirely appropriate manner. The BBC has acted with integrity and balance throughout.
Not.
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The government talk a great talk about "Social Justice" - but I've been rapidly coming to the conclusion that our current government are just a bunch of bullies.
At least Harriet Harman, unlike her ministerial colleagues, is prepared to say this needs investigation.
With respect standing up to this bullying Government - we have to really, really hope that the Monetary Policy Committee square up to Gordon Brown on another matter.
The interest rate cuts, will in effect allow the government to borrow more money - no doubt followed by a sustained period with the money printing presses running.
Take a look at this article to understand more:
Someone needs to stand-up to this government
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hmmm..Nick. Your words are still a bit weaselly. Tories taking legal advice re leaks..a bit dodgy. The 'young' Broon using leaks...more acceptible?
You need a bit more distance Nick. On what has come out so far There can be no excuse for whoever it was to authorise the police to stage a raid on an MPs office in the House of Commons. This is a resigning matter but I won't hold by breath...
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@67
there we have it then.
If Charles thinks we should be focusing on something else the chances are that this IS the real story.
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"I can only conclude Mandy & Gordy etc
HAVE GROOMED THE BBC
HOOK LINE SINKER."
Oh, that's amazing. It's almost Haiku. Is there anybody else who reads through all these comments fighting simultaneous urges to laugh and cry? Is this really Britain now? This is the level of comment we have? You may or may not think Nick Robinson does a good job, but do any of the posters like the one above or all the others of the "typical...police state...Labour own the BBC..." etc ilk really think that their comments are reasoned or sensible? Does anybody else see them as the spittle-flecked ravings of people who will see a "NuLabour" conspiracy if their custard is too hot, too cold or even just right?
Not long ago I turned doen the chance to liev and work in Canada. I now deeply regret that I chose to stay here and watch what should be an opportunity for intelligent comment become a hot bed for political grudges and hopeless no-marks ranting at the sky.
Cheque please.
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Trying to put myself in Jacqui's position - ugh! - if there was a 'systemic series of leaks' from my department, I'd definitely want it to be investigated.
Of course I'd also want to be kept bang up to date with its progress because, as Jacqui says this is is about 'some of the most sensitive and confidential information in government'.
Her claims to know nothing about Green's situation until after the event says, to me, she's either lying or incompetent.
Do not forget that this 'systemic series of leaks' was preceded by a systemic series of Home Office blunders.
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Nick
Interesting that your view of 'balanced' is that you say nothing critical of the government/brown/labour unless you can come up with something supposedly parallel from the dim distant days of the last tory government (remember way, way back when the UK had a healthy economy).
Maybe "Party Political Editor" would be a better title -- leaving "Political Editor" for someone who can see the big picutre?
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The upshot of all this is that Labour and the Tories are even less likely now to work together for the good of the country.
You'd think, given the enormity of the economic crisis facing us, that they would put aside partisan differences for the sake of the people.
No such luck.
England has been bought to its knees ... by our politicians and indirectly, our political apathy.
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MANDY
HAIRBRUSH
CLUB
GORDY
BRAZILIAN
ITALIAN
DESIGNER
TO FASHION
INTERNET
DATE
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http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23595009-details/Mr+Green's+arrest+is+an+affront+to+dem
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Remind me not to ask you for any independent thought on any political issue .
Haraman was NOT an MP when charged.
Since you cannot do basic research and get the facts right, I treat your blog as propaganda.
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#52
Another referral and for no legitmate reason of which I can think.
Can I ask the referrer to let me know why the referral ?
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The Damain Green affair has almost legitimised what was just an accusation on the blogs, as a narrative of criticism against Labour.
In direct consequence to the Damian Green issue Matthew Parris in his column in The Times discussed the term "Zanu Labour" and David Davis likened Brown to Mugabe.
This is a dangerous narrative for Labour to allow to continue. They need to come out very quickly and answer key questions that have been put concerning Ministerial activity over the affair.
i.e. The government should quell any doubt that they have acted inappropriately to have an opposition politician arrested.
If they do not, the Zimbabwe narrative will start to take hold in the tabloid press and then the wider public's mind.
The Zimbabwe narrative is starting to take hold..... our economic policy, for instance, is now said to follow Zimbabwe's lead:
Zimbabwe
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Meanwhile back at the ranch, Meltdown at the met:
Raid backlash hits the Yard: Acting head reconsiders application to succeed Sir Ian Blair
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The damage has been done. Labour yet again looks sleazy and power mad and Brown is back to being looked at like a fool who cannot control his own government. Nice bit of spin there with your grooming argument Nick.
I thought for once they really had gone too far even for your taste. I was clearly wrong.
Thank God a quick look at some popular websites will show you that the government is now so thoroughly unpopular that it doesn't matter what you and Peston and the Labour spinmasters try and make us believe.
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Nick,
The key question in this remains, if neither the Prime Minister, nor the Home Secretary (or any other minister) knew about the arrest, why are they not urgently calling to account those who did know and held back the information from them?
This episode has serious consequences for the reputation of the Government. Deserved or not, the terms "stalinesque" and "stasi" are gaining currency and are likely to adhere.
So why is the Home Secretary not embarrassed at not knowing beforehand? Why is Gordon Brown prepared to pass it off, yet with potential to damage his party?
Nick, we all think we know the reasons. We think Andrew Marr nearly got there yesterday with his interview with Jacqui Smith. As Nixon never got off the hook with "plausible denial", neither does the current cabinet.
However, we'd like you to pick up where Andrew Marr left off, take some lessons from Paxman and get to the truth of this matter.
You owe it to the readers of your blog.
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Nick,
If you have no journalistic principles continue following your present pro government line and taking your inflated BBC salary.
If you really care about the future of this country, detatch yourself from the unelected Spin Kings Mandelson & Campbell and do some serious work for an independent broadcaster.
Currently your reputation is becoming awful and you have lost all credibility as an unbiased reporter.
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The way the BBC & Nick seem to handling this story we will have to rely upon Private Eye for any real investigative journalism.
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Obviously now the Tories feel leaks should not be investigated, even if by definition it becomes espionage if the leak was encouraged or incentivized in any way.
In that case can we expect apologies for:
1. Clive Ponting: As national security is not an issue when a war is already concluded. And surely Tam Dyall was just holding the government of the day to account? He had to clear his name in court, and Tam Dyall did not seek the disclosure yet was demnonised by ministers. Also Tory Ministers had lied to the public about the Belgrano which seems to be another strand of the Tory defence.
2. Sarah Tisdall: Although the leak was defined by the Judge as not relating to national security, "those involved may leak national security information in the future". Surely some compensation is due for her 4 months in jail? Using the approach of the Tory Government of the time of Sarah?s case both Green and the Civil Servant in question "may leak national security information in the future".
Oh I see the difference MP's should not be expected to keep to the laws that us mere mortals are subject to. That would have been convenient for Aitkin wouldn't it.
Let's get to the end of the investigation before we decide who's behaved inappropriately. Unless of course the Tories want to guarantee that they will not pursue anyone one when they are in power even if they deliberately attempt to encourage leaks and plant employees in the civil service.
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It's a wonder Gordon Brown and his fellow stalinists can sleep in their bed at night with such tenacious, hard-hitting political analysis like this?
This should put to bed all those accusations of BBC Labour bias!
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#88 whistlingneil
Or should MPs be trusted to police themselves (they did such a good job with their own expenses after all) entirely or should it be handled only by MI5/6 and who should ask them to investigate (or should the decide for themselves - equally unappealing solution).
...I thought MPs were already surreptitously policing themselves - in just about every area they come into contact with - which is why we have this problem in the first place.
We need to make sure that MPs operate well within the set boundaries if they are to regain the trust of the electorate, and the electorate sees parliament being run as it should be. We also need to ensure that any MP who is asked to resign their post for whatever reason is never allowed a to work for any government department again. Their salaries and expense accounts should be dealt with by an outside body and not self-regulated as they are now.
The public see a lot of MPs up to their necks in sleaze and dodgy dealings and heads have really got to start rolling. A tall order, I know, but unless something is done it will get much, much worse by default.
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Nick,
What if they decide to pursue Journo's in a similar fashion - any time a leak or off-record remark was made?
Would only the "favoured" ones be allowed to get away with it?
And who would be the "favoured" Journalists? I have a feeling I can name one of them.
More journalism and less grooming of your own career path would be a nice way to go.
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I wonder how many folk Brown and others have 'groomed' over the years when in opposition? The 'grooming' allegation made against Damain Green smacks of our current government, ZANuLabour, attempting to slur its way out of yet another difficulty. Bring on the general election please.
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The Tories at their usual worst, if this had been a Labour person arrested they would be calling for someone' head on a stick.... get over it your man's been caught.
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The BBC try to employ the best and we can assume that Nick is a highly talented wordsmith with a clear understanding of how best to structure a piece to get over the message as cleary as possible.
With that in mind - let's analyse his contribution today.
Para 1 refers to Conservatives taking legal advice but the source and reason for this are left in the air.
The question WHY is inferred.
Para 1 then refers to Conservatives being well aware, therefore, of the dangers of placing or grooming.
Inference, that is what they wanted to do.
Para 2 concludes that para 1 is the reason why he was arrested.
Nick - cannot follow your logic here. You could equally conclude the opposite.
Why would a skilled wordsmith seek to misrepresent the known facts in such a brazen way? There is room for nudge nudge wink wink innuendo for some political stories but not in this case - surely?
This is weak and lazy journalism. Switch of the fax Nick and dig for the facts. I know fax and facts sound the same - but the latter requires a little more effort.
That may be a little unfair. You have obviously thoroughly invesigated the circumstances surrounding the Brown leaks because you are able to conclude that he acted correctly. All you need to do is to apply the same amount of diligence to these current events
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Reading the posts there are some interesting questions which are raised:
And to be deliberately mischevious:
If both Boris and DC were told in advance then why on earth did they not pick up the phone to Jacqui Smith and ask her what on earth was she playing at since they seem to both believe she was directly involved.
I am fairly sure in their position that is the first thing I would have done.
That neither has seen fit to state this is what they did (Boris has indeed stated he told the acting commisioner he thought the proposed action was a bad idea (love to hear the precise language rather than the sanitised version) and both obviously were well aware of the consequences, why not?
Was this a conspiracy by the Tory party to have itself arrested and take the headlines away from the economy where GB was apparently making some headway in the polls? I think they should be asked why such an obvious course of action wasn't followed.
Or was it they both knew that as Home Secretary Jacqui Smith could not directly interfere with a police investigation so there was no point phoning her ?
I am however sure that this post will last atmost 5 minutes before being reffered - go on prove me wrong,
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So is the thing that keeps getting me referred?
So Nick feels unable to post negative stories about Labour/Brown unless he can refer to a supposedly parallel story about the (long gone) tory governemnt - remember, so long ago that it was in those mythical days when we had a good economy...
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Or was it this that gets referred?
Nick seems to only be interested in 'party politics', not interested in the big picture.
Maybe he would be better called the 'party political editor' leaving space for a real journalist to fill the role of 'political editor'.
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#107
Do you mean Matthew Parris the former Conservative MP and well known critic of the Nu Labour project?
This is a dangerous and unpleasant connotation which I would have thought was beneath Mr Parris even in highly partisan viewpoint.
We are a long long way from the kind of activities which are going on in Zimbabwe in the Damien Green affair.
Over exaggeration is often used to try to make a point but such this comparison are akin to proposing a nuclear strike to defend against a slingshot and is decidely unhelpful under any circumstances.
However as with all such sensationalist reports a section will take it hook line and sinker.
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So it's just moderate, moderate, moderate.
So you can't take any criticism either Nick, just like your superiors in the cabinet? Moderate those posts, make yourself look good, massage that ego.
Shame on you!
Shame on you!
Shame on you!
It won't be forgotten.
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One only has to look at the number of posts removed here to understand the kind of freedom-loving democratic "non-police-state" we live in.
Moderation for the sake of removing people's voice, their comment.
Not moderation for legal issues. Not moderation for foul language.
It's plain censorship!
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83. Fatbrain UK
'Do I hear Tories writing to BBC?'
Probably, though many have given up on it.
Which is more dangerous for the BBC than it is the Tories.
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I see the BBC are reporting Downing Street as saying:
"it would judge the "full facts" before deciding whether an inquiry should be held into the case.
I thought the idea of an enquiry was so the enquiry could establish the full facts.
Effectively Downing Street have said that they will only agree to an enquiry if they know the outcome in advance...
I guess that is how most of their enquiries work!
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78. - jmt145
You ask why Boris didn't speak to anyone about the arrest?
Because that would have sprung the trap that had been set for him.
He was called about an arrest, and didn't fall for it, he was called again with the actual name of the MP and still didn't fall for it.
Then the police were left in the embarassing position of having to go ahead - rather than being blocked and leaving Boris to be slagged off for leaking sensitive information about an ongoing investigation.
The attempted entrapment wasn't just of green, it was of boris and cameron.
Another dirty trick blows up in the face of its instigators - like the DAF donation that was declined/returned ruining the setup of osborne.
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Nick
What a piece of innuendo and spin.
Firstly, breaches of security were not involved, so why were special branch involved, or indeed the police at all.
Secondly, you cannot have it both ways. Either ministers knew, in which case they are liars, or they did not in which case there is a breakdown in the chain of information and apparent incompetence. It is difficult to believe that the permmanent secretary knew what was happening, but had not briefed any minister, unless the Home Office is run on the principal of the three monkeys.
Thirdly, that most of the information leaked should have been in the public domain anyway.
Fourthly, why was a civil servant dealing with a list of rebellious MP's. Surely this is a party matter and nothing to do with the civil service's duties.
Fifthly, the police seem to be leaking details of their investigation, and making implications just as they did in the cash for honours case. This reflects poorly on the Met and is immature at the least in view of what is being investigated. Perhaps the Met should look carefully at their own record, about which one could write a book.
It is time for some proper impartial investigation by the BBC, before it becomes the British version of TASS.
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What exactly is Mr Green supposed to have done? All references to the leaks refer to "politically sensitive" or "politically embarrassing" information. Nothing about any threat to national security, which would surely be the basis for an accusation of criminality.
The word "grooming" is, of course, heavily loaded, pernicious and deeply offensive. In these modern times, unless you're referring to accusations of paedophilia it is a word you should avoid, as the Metropolitan Police well know.
Once again, the Metropolitan Police have connived with a political agenda from the government. This is not the first time, and it is one of the main flaws of the most expensive and poorly-run police force in Britain.
Shame on them, shame on the Speaker for his spineless behaviour, and shame on Nick for peddling government spin as if it is fact.
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Interesting to note that the Tories have objected more to the use of the term,"grooming" and less to the substance of the police stance.
Do people here seriously believe that a politican should interefere with police inquiries. Now that would be more like Mugabe.
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#124 whstlingneil
Was this a conspiracy by the Tory party to have itself arrested and take the headlines away from the economy where GB was apparently making some headway in the polls? I think they should be asked why such an obvious course of action wasn't followed.
Or was it they both knew that as Home Secretary Jacqui Smith could not directly interfere with a police investigation so there was no point phoning her ?
..this had crossed my mind, too.
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Seen from Europe though after a lifetime of living in a rather more arcadian albion this is just another example of the relentless erosion of freedoms thought to be held by Britons be they MPs or otherwise. Perhaps by elevating the debate then more serious analysis can be made of the benefits if any of the police state can be made.
It's clear that Mandelson is involved, that perhaps the outgoing commissioner was involved (will he pop up as a minister next?).
The weakness of the current Speaker is a joke and he should be shifted as soon as possible.
I am looking forward to PM questions; its better than anything else on UK television
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It is democracy that is under threat in this country, not just parliament.
Our MPs have shown us that they do not care about our feelings with regard to their expenses, however we are still subject to democratic rule of law and these unworthy people are necessary for our continuing enjoyment of it.
Note it is not the position of MP that it is being questioned, it is the people currently occupying those positions that is the problem, and which we plan to change at the next election.
That said, we must retain the privildges of the MPs, with regard to certain immunities, and we MST expect those in opposition to spare no effort to embarrass the government by any legal means.
Here's the rub, legal. Most of us now have no clue as to what is or is not legal anymore, not least the police, who have become politicised in recent years, whether they admit to it or not.
We are not helped when ministers deliberately act to disclaim responsibility, and so abrogate power to unelected people, who are then not responsible to anybody. It is an absolute insult to our intelligence to have a Home Secretary who would have us believe that she doesn't know what is happening in her own department. Not interfering is not the same as not knowing. She will, of course, pay with her job and hopefully her seat as an MP at the next election, if we have one.
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#129 DialSquareDomination
Hear Hear!
I've had two or three posts removed because I told Nick exactly what I thought of him at the time.
It seems there is less and less room for objective opinions on this site laely.
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#124 Whistling_Neil
Your post is safe because it implies a conspiracy by the Tories.
It is also a complete red herring. Why should be the onus be upon Boris & David? They were not active players in the story.
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I have just heard (on Radio ) a part of the dynamic duo representing the Tories on Home Office affairs, and saw him last night on TV, (a Tory Boy if ever I have seen a one), claiming that we should all obey the law excepting the Tory Front Bench. Will they ever be taken seriously?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
If you deconstruct what Nick Robinson is saying, he intimates that Green was arrested because of the grooming charge and explains why Gordon Brown was not arrested because he didnt groom his mole.. Err excuse me Mr Robinson, how can you possibly know what Brown did in 1985?
How can anyone. This arrest is the nastiest thing this nasty Govt has done, and for Jacqui Smith to say she didnt know about it until afterwards is the reason she should resign. As to the blog above. The whole article fails miserably as usual on an unsound premise..
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Nick, you miss the point when you talk about the Labour Party in the 1980s. The real parallel is the Labour Party in 1996, when it was clear John Major would need a miracle of biblical proportions to win the next election. What happened then was that Tony Blair sent his aspirant Shadow Ministers on an education course in being a Minister, so they could hit the ground running. That included meeting and being briefed by the Civil Service, who were, then as now, required to be neutral and to answer questions put by MPs.
So what's grooming for one is responsible behaviour for another.
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Re my 143
Like the Pythons' Spanish Inquisition I seem to have turned two parts into three. All in the highly relevant cause of dicussing the terms in which we debate the topical issue of Damain Green's difficulties over allegedly confidential Government information.
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Ms Smith denies that we live in a police state.
Why then were the police investigating a non criminal matter.
The leaking of government documents to her majesties opposition has never been a criminal matter.
It was an internal department issue that Ms Smith should have investigated internally.
Now if the leaks had been to a journalist then that is worthy of an external investigation.
Why then are they not investigating why Mssrs Preston and Robinson knew about the proposed 18.5% VAT hike before publication.
This smacks of double standards in a similar way to that it was OK to smear Osbourne for visiting a yacht for a few hours but not OK to smear Mandelson for staying on the same yacht for several days.
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I'm not sure why my post has gone to the moderators. I was only pointing out where this can go - ie. speaker resigning and maybe a call of no confidence. Guess that is against the rules so another one not to get the go ahead!
Way to go Auntie!
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I recall John Prescott's comments when Greenpeace invaded his roof in the 2005 elections campaign, "Wives are not for terrorising."
Pity his colleagues have hit a new low refusing to apologise for the terrorist cops who turned Green's daughter's room over, leaving her in hysterics.
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Could someone please explain to me why the BBC are not taking this outrage seriously. It is appalling on some many accounts. But clearly also it is a deep embarrassment to a Government that has set up the apparatus for a totalitarian state. So why is Nick Robinson so quiet on the matter? Is it just that he arranged a holiday during the Parliamentary break?!
I have always regarded you as a rigorous journalist, not likely to be fooled by the Goverment spin machine. What will you say when the ghastly Smith falls on her sword? That it was all the fault of the tabloid press. Come on, pick up the baton!
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If Green was suspected of doing wrong the police were right to investigate him. The arrest as, I understand, part of the due process.
Why should MP's be above the law; they should face the law in the same way as any other citizen.
There is more danger from the priviledged few - MP's, Bankers, ex-Oxford, ex-Eton - taking advantage of their positions than from the 'police state' allegations. As we can see from the current sorry mess they have landed the REST OF US in.
If this was a police state then the last thing the police would do would be to have a go at an MP.
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I have had posts referred 48 hours ago and not printed - they are not anti Labour rants - so both sides of the argunment are being treated fairly = GROW UP!
It is clear that if you post anything that implies guilt ar assumes nature of the actual offence - IT IS MODERATED - that is because this is a criminal matter that is ongoing - ALL PEOPLE ARE BEING TREATED FAIRLY ON HERE!
Why does Downing Street say nothing - what can it say? - if it says anything - it will be accused of interfering in a police investigation
How can anyone say - this is not a serious act - we dont know what papers have been alleged to have been leaked - theu may - or may not - be highly sensitive - they may involve information prejudicial to national security - WE - i.e posters on here - simply DONT KNOW - SO GROW UP!
The suggestions that New Labour are using this to hide other issues - such as the Euro or a bank doing tinto administration - SIMPLY BEGGARS BELIEF! - this story - in a frighteningly similar way to Brand/Ross/BBC and Baby P -is being spun for all its worth by the Daily Mail and CHQ - THATS A FACT!.
Listen to the actual public opinion - not bloggers on here - who by definition are politically motivated - I dont hear a single apolitical voter saying "is'nt it a disgrace about Damian Green been arrested and the House of Commons being violated"....
What I did hear this morning were a number of politically neutral people adamant in their view that MP'S should not be above the law!!!!!!!!!...
What exactly is David Cameron complaining about...
The violation of the Palce of Westminster?
The violation of an MP's right to receive leaked information - and as Nick RIGHTLY points out tread the very fine line between leaking and illegally obtaining information?
or
Is he just alarmed that as one of his MP's has been questioned and not some other parties MP - that it will affect the Tory Poll rating? - and their ability in future to obtain leaked info?
Finally - those complaining about the g-word - grooming - it is a Police term - every single sensible person in this Country will understand its meaning in this specific connertation - there is no link AT ALL to sexually motivated grooming - that is just another feeble Daily Mail ploy to divert us from the real issue - which is..
Has an MP broken the law - yes or no...
To suggest this is anything other than a short term newsworthy item in sheer bunkum!
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#38 Sallycyork
"You go for the red herring when the real issues go unreported etc etc....
Translate to:
I would like you to put in your blog exactly the view that I personally have of the situation and one which benefits my political persuasion (Tory).
"I do know that this public broadcaster does not serve us"
Translate to:
Why wont Nick's article say exactly what 'I' think it should say, highlighting exactly what 'I' think is important.
You are more than entitled to say what you think and talk about issues you think are important. But don't cry conspiracy when a objective blogger doesn't cover a story in exactly the way you want it.
Two many people on this board are attacking Nicks coverage. This blog's job is to give an update and promote debate. Given the 1000+ responses to his previous posts on this he is certainly doing his job.
ps I vote SNP
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Later this week we have the Queens Speech.
The Queens Speech is usually were the government of the day sets up its shop window, not unlike most other retailers, to sell its wares to us the public.
One thing is for sure, the Green affair will certainly take the shine of the NuLabour efforts this year.
Please, please Duff can we have another repeat performance next year!
Roll On 2010
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If anyone posting here had solicited a civil servant to give them government documents- you'd be treated the same. Why support one law for politicians and one for the rest?
And the government hasn't interfered with the police despite the PR disaster this is causing. It's quite ironic how their abstention from interfering has them labelled Stalinists... it's like the opposite of Stalinism.
More evidence to throw on the "People are hypocrites" pile. Not so long ago we were slagging off the government for not taking care of its documents, now we're slagging it off for the opposite!
Does anyone know what the nature of these documents are? The media doesn't seem to have printed it anywhere I can find... doesn't that make all the difference? What if it is actually something pertaining to national security or whatever?
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Just watched Smith being grilled on News24.....it's absolutely clear she knew "an MP "was being investigated by her body and vocal language.
What's more interesting is that she looked more than uncomfortable,and needed to be rescued by Straw.
There's more to come in this affair...and I think Smith/Brown/Straw..(and Mandlebell)..know it!
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What was it Jacqui said when asked about the proposed change in law to make a man guilty of rape if, after taking time to ascertain that a woman is not "controlled" to the best of his belief, he pays for sex and it is subsequently found she is "controlled"?
Oh yes, I remember. "IGNORANCE IS NO DEFENCE"
Perhaps that only applies to men.....
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127 Whistling_Neil
To be clear Matthew Parris didn't make a direct comparison, he was talking about the recent rise in talk of Labour aping Zimbabwe:
"On the whole, and in the main, and everything considered, you do not in a democracy go around arresting the Opposition.
For some time now, web humorists have been spelling new Labour ?Nu-Labour?. As reports of Damian Green's arrest swirled yesterday, the prefix ZA attached itself to the bloggers' joke: ZANU-Labour.
If by lunch I had heard the comparison with Zimbabwe once, I had heard it a dozen times."
Matthew Parris
What I am suggesting is that Gordon Brown needs to get on top of the Damian Green issue and provide very clear answers to the outstanding questions concerning Ministerial involvement in this issue - if he does not - I believe the Zimbabwe comparisons will increase in the mainstream press.
Look - as an example - read this column from today's Sun by Trevor Kavannagh. It would not take a vast leap of imagination to see that this issue could cause the narrative to escalate a little and for the tabloids to be making routine parallels between Labour and Mugabe and Zanu PF.
The Sun article concludes:
"Gordon Brown should apologise quickly ? before voters decide he is a ruthless control freak willing to accept any abuse of power to harm his opponents and stay in office."
The Sun - Trevor Kavannagh
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Isn't there a criminal offence based around the principle of `wasting police time'?
Well this is a waste of police time.
At the very least this is politicians playing games and they should not be encouraged. At worse it is a wholesale attack on the constitution.
I suggest that everyone backs off and the matters returned to where they were before Green's arrest and the expropriation of his property.
If certain parties are too stupid to back off then careers and lives will be destroyed.
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Many fellow posters will treralise that moderators are using 'off topic' as a catch -all to suppress criticism of the referral and moderation process. Several posters have made it quite plain that this state of affairs is totally and entirely relevant to the issues of free speech, public right to know and freedom from suppression of enquiry that we debate here on this very topic of Mr Green. Separating the two in an act of censorship is disturbing and wrong.
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As the Damien Green affair rumbles on here is another article with a new slant:
Damian Green arrest brings David Davis in from cold.
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Some years ago and long before the fall of the Berlin Wall I sat down to dinner at the Restaurant Moscow in East Berlin with senior members of the GDR politburo, including Honnicker. Whilst their people were under the boot and the Stasi hounded them daily, these evil men were proud and cynical in showing me the labels in their Saville Row suits whilst we tucked into a magnificent dinner. Bearing in mind that they had no Consul in London at that time.
Following their demise, I thought I would never see their like again, how wrong I was. Forty years on their students are still going strong, in Brussels and more sadly here in the UK, firmly entrenched in our Government. I make no apology in stating that the comparisons are glaringly obvious.
For them it is all going to plan, illegal wars, the sale of our wealth, the abolition of human rights, Parlimentary deception and the emergence of a police state.
AND Mr Robinson, We 'Aint Seen Nothing Yet!
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I saw Jacqui Smith with Jack Straw at lunchtime on TV.
This woman really is hopeless. All she does is repeat the pre-prepared notes and is simply incapable of properly answering even the most basic of questions, and simply cannot engage in any discussion beyond what's in her briefing notes.
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For years all parties have used information 'leaks' to further political ambition. This is good for the public who would not otherwise be informed of such infromation. Providing the information is not going to pose a security threat then I see nothing wrong in embarrassing Governments over their blatant lies or mis-management. The problem now is that some Labour party officials are control freaks who believe they are not accountable to the public. Green's arrest smacks of political intervention.
The denial by the Home Secretary that she was unaware of Damian Green's arrest until after the event is hard to believe. Surely such a serious and sensative matter would require the police to advise her before they appeared to breach parliament priveledge.
The erosion of democracy and suppression of information under this government is gathering pace by the day.
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My 143 isn't much I know but do please read it before it gets referred without trace.
(It's all about the Damian Green affair)
Thank you
And a merry Christmas to all our readers
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This story been kept alive by the newspapers.
I know the BBC coverage was dominated by events in Mumbai but there were many broadcasts that made scant comment if any on the Damian Green event.
Perhaps the MET are not the only ones controlled by their political masters?
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These four things are noticeable:
1. There seem to be fewer and less regular blog contributions from Nick on this important subject than others
2. This story has attracted more comment in total (across Nick's 3 contributions so far) than all others in recent times
3. Most of the comment seems to be in contradiction to the view put forward by Nick/ the BBC
4. More comment seems to have been referred back to the moderator (even after the pre-moderation process has been undertaken) than on any other story line
4. Nick seems to have adopted a position that is not universally accepted to the contributors at large.
I have a sense that the establishment seem slow in co-ordinating their responses to this story. This suggests that a problem is recognised, but there is little knowledge about how to deal with it. Bare in mind that this government usually has a co-ordinated view on everything.
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152
Nick has blogged 3 times on this issue FACT!
BBC have devoted MORE air time to it than ITN/C4 and Sky combined!
I suggest you take the matter up with Rupert Murdoch and the Daily Mail (who OWN ITN) before you seek an explanation from the bbc?
Or maybe it could just be that other than an MP being questioned about an alleged matter - THERE IS NO STORY - JUST HYSTERIA!
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Under the circumstances, it becomes a moot point as to what the Conservative Party might do in protest during the Queen's Speech. They obviously would not wish to offend her in person, but the last time such things happened was exactly the reason the Queen has to send Black Rod to summon the Commons into the Lords, and why the doors are slammed in his face forcing him to demand a hearing.
As they may perhaps be unable to force a vote on attending Her Majesty, what other options are before them? To resign en masse, forcing a constitutional crisis? To simply refuse to attend her on moral grounds? To turn up dressed as Monty Python's Inquisition (it being noted that they certainly wouldn't be the only ones in fancy dress present)?
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#153 Andywr
If Green was suspected of doing wrong the police were right to investigate him. The arrest as, I understand, part of the due process.
..but can you tell me why someone thought it appropriate to send in 20 terrorist officers?
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I have often heard accusations of political bias levied against the BBC and considered it mostly trivial or slight - until now. The coverage really dies read like it was scripted by Mandleson and / or Campbell. It is disgusting that I have no choice but to fund what appears to be the Labour offical news channel. Never have I resented the license fee so much.
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151
Maybe Greens daughter - should ask her mommy - who is barrister - to explain English Law to her.
Any Police Force in the UK - with an arrest warrant - are entitled to enter and search a property listed on that warrant -THATS A FACT!
And another FACT is that there is ABSOLUTELY NO evidence that the Police involved did anything that contravenes the terms of a warrant - whether it was right to request that warrant is another matter...
BUT PLEASE PLEASE GET THE FACTS RIGHT BEFORE POSTING ALLEGATIONS THAT ARE BASED ON HYSTERIA NOT FACT!
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Of course it is a huge relief to know that the media is never subjected to 'grooming' from politicans intent on making serial leaks to their benefit.
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One more Labour commentator who can see what Nick can't.
Martin Bright and his volley at the Progress conference on Labour ministers? reaction to the arrest of Damian Green hit upon an important point:
?It is important to debate the end of ideology. But what about the end of principle?
I was told I had five minutes for introductory comments, which is always too much on these occasions, but all that really needs to be said is two words: Damian Green.
What a disgrace this incident has been. To hear Labour Cabinet ministers who happily fed journalists leaked information during their years in opposition defending the 'independent operational action' of the police is quite staggering.
The question in this case is not whether ministers knew about the operation, but how disgusted they were when they found out. To hear Geoff Hoon on Any Questions refusing to answer whether he had any qualms about such heavy-handed tactics. Any qualms! At that point I wondered whether this government had any principles left.
So what has this to do with ideology? Well, everything. To forget one?s principles as a parliamentarian is to demonstrate that politics has become purely tribal -- Damian Green must have done something wrong because he is a Tory.?
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Isn't it amazing (or not) that it takes days for the BBC to have a 'Have Your Say' thread on their website about the Green case, and then when they eventually do it's hidden away down the pecking order of other stories like; 'do you have a sense of belonging.'
The BBC is no longer just biased but brazen about it.
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I really don't get this. Leaks happen all the time. Think back a few days to the announcement on the cut in VAT: it was all over the media before it was officially announced, so it must have been leaked. Why no investigation into that?
I have yet to see anything that persuades me that this arrest was anything other than a cynical political stunt. Pretty scary stuff when opposition MPs get arrested for doing their job. Something you expect in Zimbabwe, but not here.
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You are quite right. When do the storm troopers go in for Flash Gordon. After all he has publicly admitted leaking documents.
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#153
You mean like Zimbabwe isn't a police state because if it was there'd be no way the MDC would ever be harassed?
Blimey, think before you type eh?
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141.heraldicus wrote ref my #124.
"It is also a complete red herring. Why should be the onus be upon Boris & David? They were not active players in the story. "
I would beg to disagree that it is a complete red herring (I did openly state it was mischevious however). There is no onus on them to do anything however they are active, if peripheral, players by dint of their being pre-advised.
Much was made of who was and who wasn't informed and when they were and what they did next.
Given that it appears generally accepted that it was going to cause a major political spat and posed serious constitutional questions seems undoubted. That both knew this also seems clear.
My post asks why did those who have
stated they were informed in advance did not act to try to prevent the 'car crash' from which they are undoubtedly beneficiaries in political terms. It is not asked rhetorically - there may be a very genuine reason why they apparently did nothing.
The answer is irrelevant to the outcome of the police enquiry and Green affair generally but is very relevant to the political spat which has ensued.
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So which mad lefty is referring all my posts?
The moderators have initially let them through, so its down to one of my anti-fans.
Come on - own up.
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I seem to be having a hit and, mostly, miss day. Seems good to me because I'm obviuosly getting up somebody's nose, which is the object of the exercise, surely.
This is the forum for a serious debate, not just petty point scoring and abusive behaviour.
Criticism, or not subscrining uncritically to the party line, should be expected, and in fact positively encouraged. Otherwise we get a jaundiced and very one sided view of everything. Anybody who has ever visited a totalitarian country knows exactly what that feels like.
Naturally some criticism will involve being downright rude about an opponent or opposing view. When feelings run high this is to be expected.
In a healthy democracy we can absorb this and thrive on it. When opposition is crushed, in the case of this blog by suppression of posts, it is a sad day, and does not reflect well on those doing the crushing.
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I suggest everyone has a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_(TV_series)
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Wow... I have never seen such a huge response to a story with almost everyone from all shades in agreement. Now that the shredding of our civil liberties have reached the hallowed halls, let us hope that our MP's finally take this seriously and give us back our lost freedoms.
As others have pointed this could be the way back in for David Davis. The country (mostly) supported his actions over 42 days and this would be a perfect opportunity for him to stand up and put into action his pledge to make the government listen.
Can't wait to see what will happen on wednesday!
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What about investigative journalists who "groom" contacts in government departments or even place "moles" in police forces (in the latter case to expose racist behaviour)? What about the Labour "mole" who was identified in the Conservative campaign HQ during the 2005 general election? This will run and run....
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179
What dont you get??
It is CLEAR that the investigation is now less to do with the leak of information BUT crucially - the allegation is that someone has either been placed or encouraged to leak the information..
Put like this in simple terms..I am "a" you are "b"...
"a" calls "b" and offers him information = LEAK!
"b" calls" "a" and asks him to obtain information = "Grooming to obtain information"
or "b" calls "a" and suggests he takes a paticular job in order to try to obtain information = "Grooming to obtain information"
THIS EXPLAINS why computer files,telephones/blackerries etc were required in the investigation!
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Nick, if you allow yourself to be 'groomed' you can't complain if you are then 'abused'.
Also of political importance: According to the BBC today, Barroso said that the UK is 'closer to adopting the EU', saying: "I know that the majority in Britain are still opposed, but there is a period of consideration under way and the people who matter in Britain are currently thinking about it,"
Someone should tell him that in Britain the 'people who matter' are, we the people, who elect and depose our politicians.
At lease we used to......
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172
I am not sure where "20 terrorist officers" comes from - I read there were 9.
9 accross 4 sites does not seem in any way unusual - I understand a minimum of 2 are always sent.
I cannot comment on why they were "terrorist police" the logical explanation would be either (a) they were considered rightly or wrongly the most suitable in terms of training and knowing what to look for or (b) as has been mentioned in a few reports that some of the leaked material may have related to issues detrimental to national security...
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This whole episode is beginning to sound like a Quentin Tarantino movie.
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183 - I assure Boris was told quite simply because the Metropolitan Police were involved - given his role as Head of the Metropolitan Police Authority...
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179/180
With all due respect - I think you are missing the point!
This is not an investigation about a leak!
It is an investigation (to use the police's wording" - about the allegation that someone has been groomed to leak information!
as my recent post tries to simplify!
DG was not arrested for leaking information - HE HAS DONE THAT BEFORE AND NOT BEEN ARRESTED - same as Gordon Brown did in Opposition -
He was arrested on the basis of an allegation so far unproven that he sought to "groom" someone to obtain the information.
The fact - as disclosed quite openly by the Daily Mail" that this person is a Conservative activist obviously cannot be ignored!
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We recently threatened to turn Bob Peston's moderators in to the BBC Trust on the grounds they were inexpert at their subject and censoring valid posts. Since then, they have laid off and started taking out their frustrations on you, I rather feel.
Is it possible the same moderators are at work here, too? If so, you need hard evidence to constrain them, not opinions - in the Peston instance, they moderated out comments on RBS which were subsequently admitted by the Bank, and which were matters of public record they failed to check beforehand.
Unfortunately, should you wish to do start a formal complaints procedure, you might find the blog frozen until such time as it is conclusive. That is at least two months while the Blog's management reply, and a third while the Trust ajudicates. In the case of the Ross-Brand incident, that was speeded up, taking a month as a matter of some priority.
However, it is also to be noted that a member of the BBC Trust, Mehmuda Mian Pritchard, is also a member of the Independant Police Complaints Commission, whose membership is nominated by the Home Secretary. Other Trust members with interesting track records at the moment are Anthony Fry, formerly of Lehman Brothers, and Jeremy Peat, former Group Chief Economist of RBS.
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Here we are deep into winter, where the elderly and infirm will be deciding whether to have a hot meal or put the heating on.
The real issue are out there, however the tories continue to moan about a police investigation, if DG and the tories have nothing to hide, then why oppose the police?
At the end of the day, many will see the tories as opposing the actions to help stabilise the economy and rather than deal with the most pressing issues like energy cost and lending, most people will come to the conclusion that the tories are the enemy of the state rather than the helpers.
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Very much talk on the guardian about this issue, and most of it is not supportive.
Yet still the BBC cannot bring itself to put a link on its front page to the story we are talking about.
The question remains unanswered: why?
Why does the BBC stand out like a sore thumb from the rest of the media?
Is it the licence fee? If so, does the fee continue to be justifiable? Is there a case for refusing to pay out now we have ample proof that is nothing more than a state mouthpiece, regurgitating what the despicable Campbell and Mandelson give them?
Come on people, let's end this farce now.
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Guess this will get referred as well - but hey ho.
If Boris had spoken to anyone about the impending arrest, we could have expected headlines about 'boris blocking anti-terrorist police action to help his tory chums'.
He isn't so stupid.
The same applies to Cameron - if the first Smith heard about it had been from Cameron (asking what was going on), then the headlines would have been quite different.
They didn't fall in to that trap.
Just as the tory party declined the donation offered by DAF - so avoiding falling into a trap that would have made the cicumstantial evidece around osborne look completely damning.
One can only wonder what would turn up if the government front bench were subject to the same microscopic examination that the tories are receiving.
How about it Nick ?
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The government apologists are out and running with half truth's, and there are more than one.
Let's look at what we are told by the Home Secretary, and therefore must be the truth.
She did not initiate the inquiry, this was done by Home Office mandarins without her authority. So the question is was this an internal inquiry, looking at staff procedures, or was it planned to be political?
Since the leaks were all damging to the government, it might seem unlikely that a government supporter or sympathiser would be the source of the leak, so was the inquiry directed at those who might seem to be opposed to the goverment? Is that deemed to be party political?
Once it became apparent that the leaks came from a sympathiser with either the conservative or lib dems, how did they find out which way an individual's sympathies lie?
Is it becoming necessary for a "civil servant" to belong to the party of government? Are those with a contrary view deemed to be unsuitable for promotion? To even have a job? Considered likely to betray confidences?
In other words, are the people in charge of the Civil Service engaged in applying gags to people who may be ideologically opposed to their paymasters?
Given that there were untold numbers of leaks under the last conservative government which never reached the enquiry stage, we must assume that there is a reason that leaks are now being assiduously purseued, but not by the government.
That's what they tell us, do we believe it?
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Nick, these three blogs seem to have elicited an huge number of responses.Hopefully MPs have enjoyed reading them. Now, you and colleagues might be beginning to understand why fellow citizens have been so dismayed by the way you and others cowed to Campbell and Hoon over Iraq and why, to this day we cannot accept the failure to properly investigate and publish the truth about what actually happened to David Kelly. It may not matter anymore in your journalist bubble, but any discussion in the country at large about British politics is touched by those wretched events. Maybe the government could do one thing to assuage our ever increasing contempt for them by ordering the immediate reconvening of the coroners hearing.
When Charles_E_Hardwidge describes our comments as a 'mob frenzy', he shows a staggering ignorance about the British psyche. This is the country which J.K.Galbraith described as the only country where the monetarist experiment could have been tried without riots.
But do not mistake patience with indolence. When roused, we can get very, very nasty and that is why throughout our history, so few of our enemies have enjoyed the experience.We may be bolshy and we may seem unsophisticated but when we see our police force become their police force, all hell can break lose as the history books tell us about the English Civil War.
Just because there are a few cameras and the most pernicious security laws in the western world, if the people wanted to put them out of action, we would, efficiently and in away which ensured they didn't work for a long time.
That is why there are those within our police forces who see the negatives in the trend to heavy-handedness, gestures and over ambitious, self publicising Chief Constables who become politicised. Our police depend upon us every day. We can be co-operative, or we can be un-co-operative and they know it.
To the outsider, we may seem politically ambivalent. How wrong. It underpins every one of us in ways which immigrants and visitors cannot begin to comprehend. Our education may be inept and our peoples may be illiterate, but abuse our space, invade our land and we fight.
This debate, in case you haven't noticed, is about the rights of our elected representatives to make sure we aren't screwed over by an over zealous executive. Most of us don't care how our MPs get the facts so long as we're being represented in a way that protects our idea of freedom, so never demean us by saying we're a mob. We might too many years away just showing you what a mob can be like.
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@174
Whilst what you say about the use of the law as a tool of oppression is true, none the less Green's daughter was reduced to hysteria on grounds which remain incompatible with Prescott's doctrine. So stop shouting and get your own facts right.
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May I add a fourth rule to my 143
4) and one must never (in the process of discussing the current topic of Damain Green's unfortunate experiences over the alleged handling of certain information) query the grounds for withdrawal stated by moderators. These are highly-trained professionals with no interest in suppressing the free expression of opinion regarding the nature of public debate, so essential in the present context of Mr Green's difficulties.
I did, and was 'referred'. I state this in the knowledge that it is not forbidden to state it. Yet.
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The key phrase in this is 'Mr Green was held for 9 hours and, according to Tory sources, was accused of grooming a Whitehall mole
So stop trying to say this was a Mandelson-inspired leak to discredit Green.
It came from Tory sources. Unless this means Mandelson now.
"The Rage" is moving in mysterious ways. Tories let the media know they were alleging the "grooming" phrase was used by police. And then blame Mandelson for leaking this phrase to the media.
Unbelievable
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The labour government Gordon Brown Harriet Harman and Ms Smith in particular would do well to hede John8:7
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
Also less religiously maybe they should realise that people that live in glass houses should not throw stones.
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Can I suggest Nick reads Mike Smithson at Political Betting?
A taster.
'Everybody seems to be getting bogged down in the detail and is missing the big point - what Green did has been part and parcel of the political process for generations and it is a nonsense and an outrage that it should be regarded as a crime.'
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Ms Harman may have been taken to court but she was obviously not prosecuted otherwise she would not be holding her post as an MP today.
I do not think the police raided the Houses of Parliament either.
Not quite of the same severity but she obviously realises that once the police are involved other matters will come to light and everyone will start to question each other.
Perceived integrity is an essential quality of any MP so how can anyone take any confidential or important matter up with their MP knowing it could be scrutinised by the police?
Although I have criticised Ms Harman in the past she shows great wisdom on this issue.
Experience is a great teacher.
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So Nick, are you a journalist or a Government mouthpiece? I used to think the former but that was a while ago now.
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195
9 on his house alone - the remainder were probably headcounts, not ascertained ATOs.
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192 balhamu
FOI..
Good point but with FOI you need to know what questions to ask, and there are devices for slowing the information flow. I see you are getting moderated these days. are you getting gnarly in your old age.
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@199
It is not illegal in this country to groom someone to spy for you.
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Re 167
"My 143 isn't much I know but do please read it before it gets referred without trace."
Yup! There it goes, down into room 101. Hope it meant something to anyone who looked at it.
Hmmm. This may not be the best forum for opinion
But I'll be back.
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#191
And just to think, in another era that used to be called soliciting.
However the lady who doesn't know is just intorducing some new laws in this area and, as she herself says, IGNORANCE OF THE SITUATION IS NO DEFENCE.
So, two tenets of law disposed of in one go - no longer innocent until proved guilty, and ignorance cannot be confused with innocence.
I'd like to see a job description for both politicians (in general) and government ministers (in particular).
Still, you just keep on believing what makes you happy, for now.
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# 193 MaxSceptic
I'd be interested to know if there is a specific word in the English language to describe the conversation when a Minister or well placed Civil Servant feed information to a friendly journalist.
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@201
Clearly Cameron and Boris didnt oppose the police and they let the arrest go ahead.
you cant have it both ways
It has taken you rather a long time to come up with this red herring Des please get up ealier next time
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I am so appalled by this incident that I have written to the craven and pusillanimous Speaker of the House of commons and to the ever evasive Prime Minister. "Big deal" some may say, but everyone who cares about this should do the same. I must confess, though, that despite being a retired Army officer of field rank who has served this country on active duty, I momentarily hesitated to send the letters afraid that I might end up on some covert database of dangerous and seditious persons. In the end I decided that this the time for good men and women everywhere to stand up and do something. Nick, I wish you would too.
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#201 Oh dear, Mr Barker
Shoot yourself in the other foot, why don't you?
You open by bewailing the plight of the old and infirm who have to choose between eating and being warm.
This in a country that has been policed by the Labour paty for the past 11 years, and whose policies, designed by and driven by Hugh Jeers, are the direct cause of that dilemma.
Got any other relevant points to make?
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This is the source of the 20 police figure.
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Harriet Harman was taken to court in 1983 for offences that allegedly occurred before she became an MP. In no way was this the same as a sitting MP being arrested for doing his duty as a member of the opposition. Nick should edit his blog to reflect this, otherwise it will be held up as yet another example of pro-Labour bias at the BBC.
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It would appear that the Milbank comrades, having come in slightly late this morning, are now back online. Welcome . . .
Regardless of your attempts, comrades, to spin yourselves out of this one, it just won't wash.
Not only is the weight of public opinion, but also the weight of principled left of centre opinion, against you. I am actually proud to see that there is still plenty of that latter around.
Putting the principles aside for a second, you also need to recognise that one day the boot will be on the other foot, and that your comments today when the Tories begin to arrest Labour shadow cabinet ministers on trumped up charges, will come back to haunt you.
That's why, no matter which side of the fence one typically sits, this arrest remains an attack on our democracy.
Please examine your consciences: if the parties were reversed, what would you be saying? I think we all know.
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199 No you don't get it.
From a former BBC man and former Labour party man now a LibDem.
'Everybody seems to be getting bogged down in the detail and is missing the big point - what Green did has been part and parcel of the political process for generations and it is a nonsense and an outrage that it should be regarded as a crime.
James Forsyth sums it up well on the Spectator Coffeehouse blog: ?If what Damian Green did was illegal, opposition politicians have been committing illegal acts for as long as anyone can remember. (Even if the leaks were being encouraged then that is hardly new). The power of the state is such that the benefit of the doubt should go to the opposition in these matters. Also, the consequences of fully investigating these leaks are worse than the leaks itself: can anyone be comfortable with the idea of opposition politicians having their phones bugged by our over-mighty police force? Labour, who will in all likelihood be on the other side of this divide within a year or two, would do well to remember this.?
So who cares if Green was encouraging his leaker? Who cares who knew what when? Provided there is no question of the nation?s security being at stake - which given the nature of the suggested ?offence? we must assume - then it is loopy for this to have got to where it has.'
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Ho dear Derek, It would be helpful if tried to keep abreast of current events before posting on them.
Voters are left unimpressed by pre-budget report.
ICM poll in tomorrow's Guardian apparently puts Tory lead back up at 15%.
Latest ICM Poll in The Guardian shows Duff Gordon heading for the Flash Flop.
The Poll shows almost a third of people who voted Labour in 2005 agree that it is time for a change.
This was before the arrest of an opposition MP.
Wow - Things can only get better! do you not agree Derek?
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I would still be interested to know who leaked so much from the Treasury recently to Mr Peston and his colleagues. Surely that's rather more serious, since it revealed more of the ghastly state of Britain's finances, encouraging investors to leave in droves, and the pound to continue on its downward spiral into oblivion (or at least parity with the German Mark in the 1930s). Furthermore, it showed the country just how much we'll all have to pay and pay and pay, thus spreading gloom and despondency, which, as claimed by the Labour party, will lengthen and deepen the recession.
Also how was it received? By which I mean: if a journalist says "Thanks very much old chap", and then puts the phone down, that would presumably be acceptable. But if they said: "Thanks very much old chap, if you see any more like that you know I'll be happy to get it", would that be grooming?
Either way, I do hope the police will be investigating leaks from the Treasury in the same assiduous fashion as at the Home Office.
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Current Status on this issue
Mr Brown's spokesman said: "There may well be a time when it is right to look at the issues arising from this case."
Given that the police investigation is on-going, I imagine that Gordon Brown's strategy on this is to hope the investigation trundles along for a while, then wait for the CPS debate about whether to prosecute or not.
I imagine that the Home Office will say they want to drop the case (rather than end up with Jacqui and Gordon in court on oath).
Thus I expect Brown will announce an inquiry that will report some time just after the planned General Election date.
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Balhamu at #192 asks
"1) What information should be in the public domain? Is FOI legislation not tough enough? How should it be toughened?"
As far as my personal experience goes, I have had three out of four FOI requests denied.
My fourth (asking how much Tower Hamlets council spends on translating every piece of text it produces costs the council) was answered after four months of constant barracking.
And it's not surprising either, with the amount spent on it removed, council tax would be noticeable cheaper.
FOI gets us nowhere. We elect opposition parties to hold this government to account.
It is a sad day when the government, the civil service, the BBC and Stalinist trolls such as we find here support the persecution of Her Majesty's Opposition.
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Post 174. You seem very knowledgeable about the warrant and what happened at the MP's house which makes me think you are either.
1) One of the police who undertook the raid or
2) A ZANU labour blogger who has received a leaked piece of information from the anti terrorist squad either directly or indirectly or was it groomed out of the anti terrorist squad?
Any comment?
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#206
We don't know the circumstances why his daughter was reduced to hysteria. So we don't know if their was any heavy handedness
Speaking of hysteria this blog is full of it.
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Where is Gordon anyway?
In his bunker?
Would be nice to hear from him, but then I guess he'll be speaking on Wednesday as there'll be nobody else left in the chamber....
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226 what utter rubbish!
The non politicals are'nt feeling sorry for Damian Green.
They are actually saying no-one should be above the law!
If he has broken the law - like everyone of us - he deserves to be punished.
Its obvious politicians like Harman dont like this - they dont want to be caught out either.
THIS IS NOT A PARTY POLITICAL ISSUE...
Its an issue about a person being possibly held to account for breaking the law - and in the long run - the public WANT to see MP's bought to book if they break the law - irrespective of which party they represent.
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# 21 misswaldorf
Is that the same Jack Straw that was on the ITN lunchtime news nodding beside Jacqui Smith?
Does she need a minder?
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Much is being made here about the Met not informing Ministers prior to the arrest, although they did inform Boris Johnson and David Cameron. I guess the question is, why did they inform DC and BJ? The Mayor I can understand to an extent, given his role in the MPA, but why tell Cameron? If it is a matter of courtesy, they would have to be sure that he would not then tip off Green and risk losing important evidence.
This suggests that the amount of notice given to Cameron was minimal, and presumably, had they informed the Home Secretary, she also would have been told just before the event.
I'm not entirely clear what Jacqui Smith is being accused of. If she was told of the proposed arrest, what was she expected to do? Certainly not tell the police to "lay off". It seems therefore that some of the more rabid Tory plotters here are pushing the line that she was somehow instrumental in the decision to arrest Green, which I'm afraid simply does not stack up.
There is no question, this has been a PR disaster for the government and I for one will shed no tears over that, but beyond the heavy-handed approach by the police, and the new "grooming" narrative now being pushed, I'm not sure what there is to complain about.
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I thought that might work, the Moderators just zapped one of mine on their moderation of this subject, which is outside their remit, so they're out of order.
Before you zap this one too, Mr Mod, I've Nick's e-mail. Kindly refer your work to your boss before I do.
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micromj @205..
Well put....not a party politically motivated word in there.
Charles...where's your response?
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# 27 SallyCyork
......or the woman.
Pam Warren.
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#201
derekbarber
This is the usual argument trotted out for support of ID cards...if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear..
It totally misses the point; an inncocent man (for that's all we know him to be thus far) was arrested in the House of Commons - against parliamentary precedent. He was doing his job just like Gordon Brown did the same thing.
Presumably the near hysteria of newlabour apologists to this attack on an already plunging newlabour opinion poll, (widened to 11 points this weekend in the Observer) is merely confirmation that the attemp by Mandelson and Campbell to resuscitate the Dear Leader's fortunes are already hitting the skids...
Why wouldn't they hit the skids? You can't win an election with hypocrisy..so
Call one now.
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232
I am quite happy to comment.
A few years ago,as part of an investigation in to a business fraud by a third party that I had business dealings with - I was arrested,my property both home and commercial searched and certain communication between us was investigated.
I was fully exonerated BUT like around 10 other ultimately innocent people - we had had business dealings with the person alleged of commiting an offence.
He was subsequently charged and fined.
That is how I am conversant with the warrant/arrest and search laws - and I hope that explains this ...
PS - Was I angry at the time - yes I was - I was in a police station for 7 hours - 4 of which in a cell whilst they checked things I'd given on statement - my computer was returned 19 months later after the alleged was tried and fined...
Only on reflection did I come to accept that the law has to take its course...
So I empathise with DG - but if he has done wrong I have NO sympathy for him at all.
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There is a common saying round my end:
"Once you have lived under a Labour government, you will never ever vote for one again (if you did)".
I was born in 1979, and have never voted Labour, but the saying holds.
After seeing the economic misery they have landed on us (it's not just global, it's selling off gold at rock bottom prices, raiding pension funds, not saving money during the boom to pay for the bust which Gordon thinks he's eradicated - reason alone for him to stand down), the march toward authoritarian rule under Jackboot "Wacky" Jacqui, the complete contempt the party has for the institution of parliament and the public, the politicisation of every possible tool available to them (the police, the BBC politics team), I will never vote Labour in the future.
Nor should anyone who has an ounce of decency, respects working hard for reward, and cares about this country.
Heaven knows what planet people like derekbarker and CEH live on, but I suspect it is high up in a tower, begins with M, and is next to the river Thames.
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Most people are disgusted with this government.
Attempting to silence those speaking out about their systematic dishonesty and recklessness will not stand.
Comrade Smith really should be wearing her flack jacket this time.
The sooner we can have a general election and get rid of foul collection of liars the better.
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No matter how much you try and spin your way out of it, this time, it has gone too far.
Its not the fact that it was a Tory who was arrested, its the fact that it happened at all. I would venture that this the reason so many are disgusted by the course of action, regardless of their political colour.
You cannot systematically manipulate both the police (SFO, BAe, cash for honours, etc) AND the press (which has been done to death for 11 years) and then suddenly cry foul when something that is going to embarrass you is going to break.
We (are meant to) have a free press. Including the BBC, ITV, Sky, etc. Politicians are electable and accountable to the electorate. This is not the USSR or Cuba or Zimbabwe, this is supposed to be home to the mother of all parliaments. This is not the way it is meant to be.
Those of you who are Brown apologists - this isnt going to go away. The Government cannot act in this fashion and still expect to carry the support of the people.
If Green had broken the Official Secrets Act, or had committed a criminal offence, then Charge him and have done with it. I cant realistically see this happening.
Regrettably, like the Treasury and other government departments, the Police have been politicized. Completely bereft of leadership at the upper echelons, in the same way as the armed forces. Senior Officers who are more politicians than policemen.
A sad indictment of a once great nation. Is this what we are becoming? A nation of liars, frauds and control freaks?
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I am amazed that a wrong needs to be addressed with another wrong? How does kicking out the Home Secretary help? See above responses 1 onwards.
We need to protect our MPs, it is this type of event that shows how important they are for our democracy. Yes there are aspects to what Jacqui Smith said that leads to concern e.g. had she signed a warrant to bug a MP? Which she side stepped. This has an impact for all of us as we write in this blog which will be recorded for a year plus, if the law is changed.
However, to remove our Home Secretary because others overstepped the mark does not help. Hariette Harman is correct there has to be a review. Leaks have been going on for years. Churchill technically could have been accused of treason by indicating how unprepared the British were before the war. Gordon Brown could have been accused of undermining the economy by giving details of problems given to him by civil servants. The point being made was important to hear and react to.
If the Home Office is buzzing because of what Damien Green said means he was close to the mark. What is the Home Office doing to address the concerns raised? I think to loose another Home Secretary is the last thing we need. We have so many past Home Secretaries giving their advice but the Jacqui Smith has at least turned the department around and got it back on track. How does it help to break up the Home Office again, when we can see in India the terrible things that can occur to a democracy? Lets keep democracy safe, stop this action against Damien Green and get back to a listening government. Gordon you need to take control and stop this making the country look foolish before the world.
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Labour will never recover from this.
The hypocrisy and evasions of a government that has forfeited the trust of the nation will be nailed, and there will be no way back.
They were already on the ropes, now this is the beginning of the end. Ironic, in view of their manifest economic incompetence, that their "Black Wednesday" moment should be this.
Speaking of recovering, or not, neither, unless you up your game and stop simply parrotting the latest desperate NuLab spin (first the Ruth Kelly "comparison" and now the "grooming" non-allegation) will you.
There is real and widespread anger about the arrest of Mr Green and what it says about Britain today. You seem unaware of this, and unwilling to ask the necessary questions.
Be honest with yourself: if a Labour MP had been arrested under a Tory government under exactly these circumstances, what would you be doing? Now, if you want to save your own badly tarnished reputation, get out there and DO IT!
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The fact - as disclosed quite openly by the Daily Mail" that this person is a Conservative activist obviously cannot be ignored!
Yes it can. greatandydudley
And should. Read Robinson's article [the Labour QC not this one] in the Evening Standard.
His report is based on the law and is not issued from Labour HQ.
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#214 glenafon
No - legal issues with this case plus risk-averse moderation I guess
Some words are banned (SPOnarge for example).
But most of my posts have been barred for stupid reasons (e.g. stating the fact - now acknowledged by the BBC - that the mole was a member of the Conservative Party).
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235. greatandydudley
I believe you are completely wrong.
Given the content of the leaked stories, this is seen as an attempt to silence those who might embarass the government.
Worse their method of doing so has attacked our parliamentry system, and they show every sign having deliberately asked not to be told the details, so they can pretend to be uninvolved.
Labour have created a 'national police force' through the back door -- local coppers have a loyalty to their communities -- national forces only loyalty is to their masters. Special branch (part of the anti-terrorist force) still haven't answered the questions about sitting on mobile phone taps that might have prevented the omagh bombing (and certainly would have speeded up the subsequent capture of suspects), and the demendez episode has put the public even more on their guard against the polices motivation and competence.
Britons commitment to our parliamenty democracy is far stronger than you think.
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#227 sally
Who cares if Mr Green encouraged his leaker?
The law?
Who cares, eh
Robert Brown, a partner at Corker Binning law firm, said that in some respects it would not be difficult to prove a case against the official if he had been leaking confidential Home Office information.
For Mr Green, asking or encouraging the official to leak material would constitute "counselling or procuring" misconduct, while assisting him to leak it would be "aiding and abetting", Mr Brown said.
The "conspiracy" element was more general, but essentially suggests the two parties got together and agreed to carry out the offence.
Someone could be guilty of conspiracy whether or not the offence is ultimately carried out.
The article goes on to say that it is unlikely a prosecution will happen. But says laws could have been broken. Essentially, MPs are above the law.
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@237
By your logic its not a problem if Ms Smith was informed before the arrest.
The Lady doth protest to much, Methinks
Which would suggest she did know , so then the question arises what is she trying to hide by distancing herself from the knowledge
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191 & 199:
I do appreciate that Damian Green is not accused of actually leaking information, but of encouraging someone else to leak it.
However, is it illegal to ask someone else to leak information? What specific offence do you think he might have committed if the allegations are true?
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#228
Roll-on-2010, challenged again by a situation you clearly dont understand.
The government is doing all it can do to stimulate the economy (capitalisation of banks)
Energy firms are privately owned and set their own rates, now that the price of oil has fallen by two/thirds, this government is putting hard pressure on those firms to come into line with their rates.
Why do you fail to mention the extra money in the PBR for the elderly and family income support, (do you oppose those measures to)
Would you say the the increase in the winter fuel help for the elderly was a good thing, raising by another 200GBP.
But Hey! there needs to more more done, times are very difficult indeed, dont you think the tories should play a role in the economy.(WELL AT LEAST SUPPORT THE EFFORT)
I see you give your top precentage gain for the tories as 15% while other's say 10%
Again, Hey! polls change in days, floating voters often switch. (AGREE)
Last week a number of your fellow bloggers were saying how Europe was not taking GB's lead on the economic stimulus, however today, france, Italy and Spain are all proposing more stimulus plans.
Your a pretty keen political viewer, at this time and giving the grim situation of the economy, do you think its wise to continue to ignore the economic situation that the tory party have been doing?
When you take away this investigation into a tory MP, Cameron has been all over the place on the economic situation, he first proposed to agree with the government ,then he opposed the government, he opposes the VAT decrease and the PBR in general, so what does he have in plan?
I hope you dont go straight to the government in power fault thing, even you must accept this down-turn as a world wide down-turn effecting all major economies.
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Have you ever considered taking up a peerage Nick?
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Convenient for the Conservatives to keep this going.
Carbon budgets published today by the Government - radical action on climate change.
Whatever happened to 'vote blue, get green'.
A different era I guess. The re-positioning stage has finished and served its purpose.
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To those continually pedalling the myth that the PUBLIC ARE FURIOUS ABOUT THIS!...
May I suggest you go outside - switch off the political blogs - full of political bloggers - and LISTEN
People reading the Daily Mail,The Times,The Sun,The Mirror,The Metro - on the train this morning...
People watching the tv NEWS ON THE TRAIN - YES our trains have pre-recorded early morning sky news on them!
The same comment over and over again!
IF a Politician does something wrong - he or she deserves to be punished like the rest of us...
DG was arrested and questioned in just the same way as anyone else - the use of Terrorist Police is I grant you unusual but implies the material at the heart of the enquiry may be serious to national security - that is a political argument not a legal on!
IF - IF DG is subsequently charged and proven guilty I have no doubt that the vast majority of non-political members of the public (around 90% of the population) will simply say....
If an MP is caught doing something wrong...he/she should be punished...
Maybe we on here - need to look OUTSIDE the Goldfish Bowl on occasions....
In danger now of repeating myself I will leave the blog until/unless something substantive happens..as I think we are in danger of hyping up something that is frankly not that important!
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Excellent blog as usual Nick. It?s a real shame though that it?s being hijacked by a handful of Tories, repeatedly posting ludicrous comments. If you look, 90% of the comments here are by the same few people with way to much time on their hands.
The Police are still investigating the case so there is no doubt more to this story than has been revelled so far. Going on the offensive with such venom, as the Conservative frontbench and its supporters here have done, could seriously backfire on them over the next few days.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#249
To the moderators.
Perhaps when you write to me telling me that my above comment has been refused, you would be good enough to tell me why.
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Look at the case of that soldier Mark Aspinall in Wigan.
That's the future of policing in the UK.
To a serving soldier too, disgraceful. I didn't see any plods defending our "liberties" in Afghanistan.
Sickening.
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#248
Well said Mr Venables.
if truth be told there have been dozens of newlabour black Wednesday moments.
10p tax; cash for peerages; northern Rock; the PBR; but now their rage has grown to such a degree they have shot themselves completely in the foot.
Of course, choosing to ignore public opprobrium about ID cards meant that newlabour chose wilfully to ignore the concerns of the British public about our spied upon culture. Now they go and arrest an innocent man breaking a five hundred year old precedent and both Gordon Brown and Jacqui Smith deny all knowledge of it.
Could this 'selective memory' have caused just the slightest worry in the average Brits mind? We are only just getting information after fifty years fo Soviet attrocities during the second world war... to which Stalin 'turned a blind eye'...
This is a shocking and disgraceful state of affairs and is the direct result of an incompetent, complacent and arrogant administration who think showering a client state with cash will keep them in power.
Call an election.
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Power corrupts. The government, divorced frpm reality, seem unable to grasp how threatening the Damian Green incident is. Do they really think the police raiding Parliament over a leak is acceptable? They can`t see only Richard Nixon, Mugabe and the Speaker would agree.
The police use of the term"Grooming" is
totally dispicable and Nick Robinson saying "this goes some way to explaining etc..." isn`t much better.
Can`t stand the Conseratives but will join a march in support of Damian Green tomorrow!
By the way when are the police going to be stopped from storming into innocent and/or harmless peoples` homes at six in the mornig with Sun reporters in tow. I think Harry Rednapp, Matthew Kelly and Damian Green should be told!
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#243 DialSquare
You're absolutely right, everybody is allowed to make mistakes, provided they learn from them.
I myself voted for Labour, back in 1966, the first time I was eligible to vote.
Unfortunately I began to earn more, and got married and bought a house, and found that it didn't make sense, since their policies were aimed at making me worse off, for ever and ever. I have never voted for them since, and never will.
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Mods must be sweating blood, keeping this many posts off the blog, and trying to stop the overwhelming condemnation of the police, the government, the most ineffective Home Secretary in a long, long time, and the amazing ability of the man who saved the world not to be around at this key time, and not to know anything about it.
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The defence of Smith by some contributors is admirable - particularly as it seems to come from both sides of the political spectrum.
This is as it should be, because this matter is (or should be) above party politics.
I am less generous. I don't see any top ranking policeman authorising the arrest of a Shadow Cabinet Minister, confiscating phones and PCs, marching into the House of Commons and removing files, without being certain that he had the backing of the Home Secretary.
Time will tell.
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Let us suppose that the Police are perfectly correct in following the evidence trail to identify the Civil Servant who leaked the information that was embarrassing to the Government. That individual will have fallen foul of a number of pieces of legislation and is liable for the consequences. Where it stretches my belief is the legislation that has been applied to the person in receipt of the leaks. A piece of Common Law (not Criminal) dating from the 19th century. This does rather smack of the Police trawling through the law books in order to ?get? their man. It is at that point the Police discretion was abandoned in favour of a political witch hunt.
As has been mentioned here; if NuLabourites are defending the process of investigating opposition MPs they can look forward to seeing it for another perspective. After 11+ years of politicising the civil service there will a number of potential leakers anxious to do the dirty on the incoming Tory administration. Will the survivors on the Opposition benches be quite so keen to receive the ?dirt??
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Perhaps Concerned_Voice at #247 should wake up and smell the coffee about Jackboot Jacqui.
If they seriously think "the last thing we need" is a new home secretary, I would argue that they have muddled the words "first" and "last".
She is miles out of her depth, and should take her authoritarian nonsense back to bashing NUT officials.
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252 - I disagree - I believe any opportunity the public have to attack "finger in the trough MP's" will be the over-riding factor.
To them - whether the guy is Labour,Conservative,Liberal,SNP whatever - they simply distrust politics and politicians and if DG is charged with this offence and a case put forward for the exact reasons why - the mood of the public will very quickly move in to the anti MP camp!
On a seperate issue Greens decision to employ Michael Caplan - qc - who attempted to defend General Pinochet - is imho a gross error of political judgement!
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I just did a quick check, 51 out of 250 posts have been removed, presumably after complaint.
Since there is a wide cross section of regular posters, from all sides, whose posts have been removed, arguably the moderators are being even handed.
However, as adults, we should be able to view the offending articles ourselves. We can then choose to jeer and laugh at the poor misguided fools, a much more effective way of getting them to modify their views than simply cutting them off.
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Do the right wing drones that infest this blog actually read Nick's article before commenting or do they have a template accusing him of bias on every issue.
Do you people really think this was inspired by ministerial approval? They would have to be very stupid to think that this would pass without comment.
I don't remember these drones squealing with outrage when Labour figures were hauled out of their homes over the peerages issue. For which no charges have ever been brought.
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@260 j_murcia
Its says quite a lot about real public opinion if you think the blog can be hijacked by a handful.
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Speaker faces being forced out after raid.
But all is not what it appears to be.
I wonder if Scotland Yard will be the ones without a chair when the music stops?
My, my the webs we weave.
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Here is the current state of play:
The Sun: front page - "Cops: Tory tried to groom mole"
Mirror: news page - "20 top secret leaks before Tory MP Damian Green arrested"
Independent - front page - "PM wants full facts on MP's arrest"
Guardian - front page - "Smith accused of failing in Green row"
Times - front page - "Tory MP arrest officers want top job"
Telegraph - front page - "Tory MP 'groomed' Whitehall mole".
Sky - front page - "Brown: MP arrest is police matter".
ITN - front page - "Speaker to make statement on Tory 'raid'".
BBC - not front page, hidden away in UK politics section.
And still no answer as to why the BBC (state-funded) feels like it should take a different line to the rest of the UK media (non-state-funded).
You can decide for yourselves what is going on.
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#256 Mr Barker
Capitalisation of banks, eh? Sounds betterh than nationalistion.
Anyway, all that is doing is allowing banks' balkance sheets to remain as they are. The loss of capital is because of the loss in value of some toxic assets. If they can't replace the capital, they have to REDUCE the amoujnt of loans. So re-capitalisation is not expasnionary, it is just sticking a finger in the hole in the dyke.
Social measures in the PBR are a minor amount compared to the amount the government is irresponsibly throwing into the financial crisis, and I do mean irresponsibly.
Yes votes do float and, having been persuaded to float in during the past few weeks, have had a look and are floating away again.
It doesn't matter any more how much spin you boys try to put on anything. The game's up. You know it, I know and, crucially, the voters know it. They're the ones who've been paying for 11 years, and what have they got to show for it?
Lies, denial, sheer incompetance, and a big bill.
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The next lot of polls should be interesting!
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Nick, we're aware you're off at the bunker at the moment with McCavity...but...perhaps you can answer one question?
When will this story return to the BBC News front page, where it deserves to be?
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#201 derekbarker
At the end of the day, many will see the tories as opposing the actions to help stabilise the economy and rather than deal with the most pressing issues like energy cost and lending, most people will come to the conclusion that the tories are the enemy of the state rather than the helpers
And I think we're learning what we do with "enemies of the state", aren't we?
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#272 well said.
However, our definition of "moderation" does not tally with the BBC's definition of "censorship".
They still refuse the story on front page
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#243 DialSquareDomination
I was born in 1979 as well.
I have only one thing to thank feckless Labour governments for. Without all those power cuts in 1978 I may not have been conceived.
I have never voted Labour either and agree with your sentiment in your penultimate paragraph.
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Derek, why are you going off topic?
Capitalisation of the banks... and this has what precisely to do with the politicising of the Met? The fact that had Gordon been more proactive in trying to take the heat out of the economy earlier (putting house price inflation into the headline figures instead of leaving it out, ensuring the FSA were doing their job properly by enforcing their rule book instead of just writing it), then we may not have been in the financial pickle we are in...
Energy companies... yes, privately owned, yes a sale too far by the Tories... but who took off the 5% cap that prevented the huge rises in prices that we have seen over the last 12-18 months? The current Government, perhaps?? Or was it those nasty Tories?
Trying the emotional blackmail element about "those poor pensioners who will either freeze or eat... surely you cant be against that as well?" I think we can all remember the 50p pension debacle that happened.... oh yeah, under the current Labour government.
Not to mention the savage attack on pension funds by Gordon and Geoffrey Robinson in 97 from which the industry has never recovered and has destroyed the pensions of virtually everyone but the public sector (funnily enough...)
Or was it those nasty Tories again?? Never have I seen the elderly so angry.
Cameron doesnt have to do anything. His party is in opposition still. Its not his job to govern. You cant blame your own inadequacies and bad decisions on the fact that your principle opponents havent got any better ideas. A bad idea is still a bad idea.
Personally, I dont think Cameron is ready. The Tories are not the solution. If they were there would have been a vote of no confidence in Gordon already. For continuous pulling of punches and not articulating the anger the public feels, Cameron has foregone any chance of victory at the next election.
The only reason Labour has stayed in power as long as it has, is the same reason they stayed in opposition for so long in the 80's and 90's. Because the PRINCIPLE opposition were unelectable. That is still the case.
But that is not good enough reason for us to endure another 5 years of this descent into a Soviet style state. If I wanted that, I could have stayed in Cuba.
You know the sad thing Derek, whilst you're trying to spin your way out of this mess? You might not see it coming, but you are going to be handing both council and parliamentary seats to the far right on a plate. Just how much more do you think the proles will tolerate before they snap?
Within the next 2 parliaments, I am prepared to bet that the BNP or a similar far right party will hold the balance of power at Westminster.
I sincerely hope your fawning over the megalomaniacal Gordon Brown is worth it Derek; when he's decided he's had enough, and maybe being PM isnt quite the dream he thought it would be, those are going to be the peices the rest of us are going to have to pick up.
Now, can you see why so many have such a hard job in taking this cynical Pravda type spouting seriously? Can you not see the damage you're doing? Or do you just not care, so long as it keeps you all in Cava and guacamole in Millbank?
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269 - The Police almost certainly in this instance would have sought the advice of the CPS - Crown Prosecution Service.
There does seem to be a blatant and basic lack of understanding here by some bloggers in to how the justice system works...
In each and every case it is the job of the POLICE to obtain evidence
In each and every case it is the job of the CPS to review that evidence and to (a0 indicate what further evidence they think may be required and to (b) pass a judgement as to whether the evidence obtained is sufficent to effect a possible conviction at any future trial.
If after the assembly of all the required evidence the CPS indicate charges should be bought the Police will charge the person and end them to the relevant Magistrates Court - the Magistrates Court will then either deal with the charge,offer the defendant the chance to go to Crown Court or pass it to Crown Court if it is outside of their jurisdiction.
It would be ASTONISHING in this case if the CPS were NOT involved after the original person (the 26 year old Conservative activist) was questioned - given the gravity of the charge and the nature of his contacts....
The CPS will almost certainly given advice and by definition approval for DG to be questioned - he would then have been arrested as a matter of course.
As I have indicated earlier - this has happened to me (other than the Terrorist squad) - let us ignore the rubbish spouted by some news outlets about doors been smashed down and properties ransacked - as an innocent person caught up in something I knew nothing about I have empathy for DG- but the vitriolic claptrap about some of the actions of the police being heavy-handed appear totally unjustified...
If you are arrested on suspicion of complicity in something - you are taken to a Police Station by at least 2 police-officers,there you are cautioned and read your rights,you have to give finger-print / DNA SAMPLES - thsi is standard practice in case you are wanted for other offences - then you are either (a) put in a cell or (b0 put in a secure room - until your lawyer -and/or the questioning Officers are available - you can be held for up to 24 hours - when you enter the Police station any phones/balckberries are taken from you - if your property/office is searched a warrant has to be produced and if necessary your Solicitor can be present or someone you ask to be present can be present...
What annoys me most about this case is is uneducated ill-informed Daily Mail type rubbish spouted about the Police doing this and that...
LETS BE BRUTALLY HONEST - NO PROTOCOLS HAVE BEEN BROKEN IN THE INVESTIGATION - other than the apparent protocols of MP's to be in some way above or different in the eyes of the law to you and I...
Taking away as I have said the terrorist police link....I challenge anyone to come up with anything substantive around the arrest,search,questioning and bailed to appear on whatever date - that is any different to the process and procedures carried out hundreds of times every day..
I was innocent,I was angry at the time,I was well treated and quickly told I had no case to answer - from what I can see - hte MP issue aside DG has been treated NO DIFFERENTLY!
And put it like this....
If I was passing on confidential information on request to a third party who had asked me to supply this in a clandestine manner - in any UK company - I would expect and deserve a knock at the door to ask me what the hell was going on!
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Some people on here clearly don't actually do any work, judging by the familiar names posting...
Are your jobs so boring you have arguments on the bbc website?
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Yes....remember the 1930s when Churchill was getting leaks on the aims and strength of Nazi Germany. All held under cover by the government of the time.
He got the information, may have groomed his informant, BUT he was able to put it to good use to presurise his own party to wake up.
He got ostracised for his efforts but eventually was proven right.
History repeating itself? Facts that a government would rather conceal? Trying to apply pressure to stop it?
Something here is definitely not Kosher
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#254
Why is it a problem if she was informed before the arrest? What was she expected to do/say?
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I am amazed that this issue has run and run in the media and on Nick's blog also.
When it first erupted I thought - storm in a tea cup - the economy will come back as the lead political story in a few hours.
If either Gordon or Jacqui had stood up and provided a statement covering off all the 'grey' areas concerning ministerial activity on this issue then the story would be largely dead in the press. We would only be awaiting the the outcome of the police investigation.
Brown is mad to let this story run. This story, like the election that never was, could form the tipping point that causes the media narrative to change and to attack him day in day out for a period of months again.
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Now we're reading comments from senior police officers within the investigation, who are leaking what is going on! It's like the met are terminally thick, a leak investigation leaking, good grief.
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If the police have the evidence and are operating within the law, I expect, they can assume the Home Secretary's backing. Indeed, a strong Home Secretary would be perfectly happy taking a reponsible hands-off approach.
Another aspect is that within the guidance of proper law and attitude, the police are free to make genuine mistakes and learn, as well as achieving goals and earning trust. This is a useful generic approach to success and expanding the sweetspot.
I'm feeling a bit burned out by this story and the over-active fingers that seem moved to bash keyboards over this, so am just floating along and enjoying the general Zen of it all. All the stiff necks rushing around looks quite funny.
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Nick,
Judging by 99% of your posts, you must be in the same position with the Government. I can only assume that if you say anything against Gordy or Jacky or Mandy then you will have your privileges revoked.
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276
"WHATS GOING ON" you ask...
CONGRATULATIONS TO THE BBC!
Totally UP TO DATE WITH THE NEWS AS USUAL..
Headlines about-;
BABY P ENQUIRY
RBS - REPOSESSION CHANGES
"Other top Stories"
No 1 - in the list - DG issue...
I congratulate the BBC for being at the forefront of real news as it happens - when it happens!....
No doubt ITN are busy trying to work ourt Dozy Daiy's spin on the DG affair or failing that Polar Bears in the Arctic!
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A "police state" has two definitions...
a) Where police can raid political opponents and the goverment support it...
Not the case here - Our home secretary says she did not know about this....???
b) where police can raid political oppenents and the government does not stop it....
thats still a police state - not stopping it does not make it better.....
A police state is a state in which police can do anything they like - how does our home secretary argue we not now in police state if we can only agrue about it
a) after they shoot Charles DeMenezess 6 times in the head
b) after they shoot innocent muslim in the leg....
c) after they raid Parliament
Hello !
Our home secretary is responsible for anything the police do.... right or wrong it does not matter.....
if she did nothing as claimed - she unfit to serve.
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#271
and if DG is charged with this offence and a case put forward for the exact reasons why - the mood of the public will very quickly move in to the anti MP camp!
Oh no it won't. The public's mood will be swiftly steered into an anti-Tory MP camp. By the usual suspects.
Not content with breaking with convention and putting in a 'safe' speaker Labour saw fit to do away with the centuries old concept of double jeopardy too. Naturally their first 'coup' in order to justify this destruction of a centuries old legal principle was to re-try some chap for murder and nail him second time out. They knew it would be hard for anybody to disagree with their destruction of one of the oldest principles of law after that.
Practically the next thing they used their repeal of double jeopardy for was to re-try Nick Griffin on various charges after the jury got the 'wrong' verdict first time up. They got the 'wrong' verdict second time too.
Which is what double jeopardy was all about in the first place. The ability to tie your political (or business or whatever) rivals up indefinitely with trials and re-trials for the same offence. A point that a chamber packed with lawyers should have had fore-most in its mind before it even contemplated repealing the double jeopardy laws.
And practically the first chance they got to tie up some 'undesirable' political opponent and use up his time and money... Guess what? Away they went. The very thing double jeopardy was designed to stop.
Watch closely to see whether Green is tried and retried to drive home the point.
The key issue though is that as with the convention on rotating the speaker, the repeal of double jeopardy and the moves to reduce jury trials this cocking a snook to the issue of parliamentary sovereignty is just another erosion of the prescient checks and safeguards that our forebears fought so long to put in place. All sacrificed for this disgraceful governments political expediency.
And all 'justified' by the very people who should know enough legal and political history to know the reasons such conventions and principles were arrived at in the first place.
So this breach of parliamentary sovereignty presided over with their usual plausible deniability will be 'justified' as making the point that MP's are subject to the same laws as everybody else. But what it will really do is further neuter opposition by ensuring that even when the government is covering up embarassing information then nobody dare reveal it. The Ministry for Information will just continue to grind out increasingly surreal figures and nobody dare speak up who doesn't want to lose their pension or be tried. And re-tried if necessary.
On a seperate issue Greens decision to employ Michael Caplan - qc - who attempted to defend General Pinochet - is imho a gross error of political judgement!
Yep. That'll be a Labour apologist point of attack no doubt. Let's not focus on defending the staggering hypocrisy of getting into a swoon about 'leaks' when our very own PM was benefitting from leaks himself back in the day.
Naaaaah. Let's go after Green's choice of QC instead.
More dog-whistle politics.
Meanwhile the pound continues it's slide to wards parity with the Zim dollar.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
251 balhamu
yes but they cant have you hoggin the headlines in the pipeline. make it look bad if the blog was ahead of the news headlines which it has on occassion been. could be 4000 monkeys typing online and getting it right or it could be painfully obvious what is coming next. :) keep it up I enjoy seeing you getting modd it is pushing you centrist. but dont do it too much or you might end up right wing. lol
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Please, please can the BBC try to find the money to buy - and the competent IT staff to set up - a properly threaded site for discussions like this?
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#273
Back in the room, Alistair. Maybe no charges were brought against the newlabour MPs and apologists arrested during the cash for peerages scandal. But why was there no Tony Blair resignation honours list?
Could it be that the stench of it all was too much for the Great British public? Could it be there would have been a public outcry about such a man choosinmg even more of his best friends and newlabour cash machines to the Upper House?
Perhaps you could offer your explanation yourself because actions speak louder than words. And the action was to have no resigantion honours list - unlike every single one of his predecessors.
Oh dear.
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#273;
How dare you. "Drones.." Is that what you think the electorate are? I've been on record numerous times stating that IMHO Cameron & Co are not ready. This is not about them.
What happened with the Cash for Honours arrests was no different to Cash For Questions during the Major era. Difference was that at least 2 Tories tried to bluff it out and lie in court and at least one, Jonathan Aitken got sent down for it. The Hamilitons were turned into a standing joke and havent recovered since.
Do we really think it was orchestrated with ministerial approval and the PM's knowledge? Do the words Tony Blair, The Serious Fraud Office and BAe ring any bells? There is a precedent.
So anyone who doesnt tow the party line is a right wing drone? A counter-revolutionary perhaps?
I think I can see where your train of thought is leading. And I dont like it.
But, hey, thanks to the politicisation of the police and the manipulation of the press, what are you worried about? Nothing
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#277
Social measures in the PBR are a minor amount compared to the amount the government is irresponsibly throwing into the financial crisis, and I do mean irresponsibly.
Yes indeed. Shares down 4% on the day. The pound down over 5c (five) on the day! That's what people whose livelihoods depend on making sensible financial decisions thought to RBS' announcement that they'll be allowing people to spend an extra three months getting even further into debt before they repossess their insanely over-priced homes.
No doubt an utterly spontaneous bout of altruism from the board of RBS. No question of anybody getting on the phone and reminding them who owned 57% of the bank and how much they'd have to pay (Zilch, not a penny, nil, nothing, nada) for the remaining 43% if they felt so inclined to trash the boards share options. Certainly not.
Meanwhile our economy continues it's freefall into oblivion.
If somebody had set out to destroy the UK economy they couldn't have done a more thorough job.
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#288 jonathan_cook
Excellent blog, I agree entirely.
Duff is his own worst enemy!
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To all you left wing leaning posters, it may have escaped your notice but since Nick famously posted here that he refused to have anybody else set his agenda (a response to wide felt need to introduce a new theme to his Corfu blog), his threads have had more than a passing resemblance to the phraseology adopted by two new recruits to the Brown team at that time - Mandelbell, or Campbelson?
His musings are, nowadays, more filled with a half thought, or inference, than they are with an insightful view of the reality.
However, the desparate man in Downing Street, who needed their help so much, is incapable of seeing what's happening all around him.
His ministerial team, which wasn't of a high calibre when he started, is shown as being bereft of ideas, and having no thoughts about how to address our deep rooted economic problems which, strangely enough, haven't gone away, or got suspended whilst the latest bout of petulant clobbering of dissenters is under way.
The puppet chancellor, having had weeks to plot and plan the financial destruction of the country, has suggested that he significantly underestimated the amount of stimulus involved. However, using the governments concoluted maths, if he gives us more now, he's going to have to take back much more in the future. Is there any limit to how generous they think we are?
If Brown, the architect of all this, was right, why would we need to be borrowing so much?
If they were wrong, again, on their calculations of the amount of stimulus involved, how much credence can we give to any of their other figures? How many times can they claim they're right when plapably they're wrong? How long can they hold out before giving us an election?
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re my post 205...final sentence should read
'We may not be too many years away from showing you what a mob can be like'
and lest there be any further misunderstanding about how this debate is not purely a party political one, it is this.
When the pivot points of a carefully constructed post-colonial foreign policy are all but wrecked by actually demeaning your own country to the ridicule of your closest ally for reasons of personal vanity, when you trample on and brazenly distort the hard won intelligence sourced by your own intelligence agency (the very one which has mentored and been the template for most others), allow one of the main intelligence gathering centres in the Western alliance to get flooded and when you then do everything possible to ignore a thousand years of military experience AND publicly humiliate those charged with leading your volunteer forces in the field by word and deed you had better have some good excuses and plans in place when it all goes wrong, as indeed is doing.
For evidence look at the major figures from all parts of The House who have spoken on this subject so far, not least those at the heart of the New Labour project.
So, let us not be under any illusion as to how serious the mess is for the present executive. What is worse, they have earned, in all likelihood,some payback from the very institutions which can damage them the most, so let us not fully discount the idea that the actions toward the most mild- mannered of Conservative MPs is guaranteed to be seen as a New Labour action rather than a police action and that by carrying out the action in such an high visibility manner, the maximum opprobrium might be laid at the door of those whom the public and the Establishment institutions at the centre of our democracy dislike the most.
ie The present Prime Minister and those around him extending into the realms of Chief Constables, Town halls, and the plethora of anti Establishment quangos which this government has established as a means of destroying our Parliamentary democracy.
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#276
The BBC website is not like the Sun etc. When this story broke it was front page for the Beeb. Few significant facts have emerged since then.
The BBC News home page will generally include breaking news (from around the world). When there are major announcements on it i'm sure it will move back to the front page. I really don't think this is evidence of editorial bias towards any particular party.
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#290 Buzz Hartwidge
Might I suggest that you take a leaf out of the Home Secretary's book, and take a hands-off approach.
After all if that gives a Home Secrtary strength, it could prove better for you than Sanatogen.
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Of course there is still the question of entrapment that needs to addressed here.
The Leaker was requested by the police to contact The Mp and tried to engage him in a conversation to lead him to self incriminate.
It was the failure of this strategy that lead to the searching of the offices for other "evidence"
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Thank for your comment DialSquareDomination No 270
The point I was making was that to just change the Home Secretary every year is not the best way to get stability. I was not defending Jacqui Smith but I was pointing out that at least the Home Office does seem back on track rather than"not ft for purpose".
You have a right to ask for a change in Home Secretary but it has always been the department that everyone is unhappy with.
Yet we still have one of the best democracies in the world where even in the form of this blog we can share our thoughts without a knock on the door. We are shocked as Damien Green did get a knock on his door and the good thing to see is that many people are upset by it.
I am not supporting one party or the other my view is that those who govern us should do it well.
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CEH;
Police making honest mistakes.
Yeah OK.
JC De Menezes.
Barry George.
The Guildford 4.
The Birmingham 6.
Soham.
The Irishman shot for carrying a table leg.
The Stephen Lawrence scandal.
There are hundreds more, but those'll do for now.
You reckon they learned ANYTHING from any of those?
Or should we look at it from a software developers perspective... something else for the "Lessons Learned" log......
Which, in practise should be titled "Lessons Identified". Its never "Lessons learned".
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The greatandy dudley
Such defence of our corrupt establishment
can only mean one thing,you must be in the
Party.
There may be some miguided/slightly warped comments here and some with mistruths.
However its a principle at stake?
ONE THAT GORDON BROWN USED TO GREAT EFFECT in opposition.
Strange as it seems THATS WHAT PEOPLE
ARE UPSET ABOUT.
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294 - any apologist for Nick Griffin certainly does not deserved to be taken as a serious and respected individual.
You have really disappointed there - as I although I dont often agree with you - your comments are interesting and informative - but as I say any apologist for Nick Griffin cannot be respected by any sensible democratic person!
Let alone Pinochet!
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Will this investigation now mean that a journalist who "grooms" an MP or civil servant for leaks will be investigated, cut your expense account Nick.
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Nick,
Is it time to move on from this story now? It is important - but we aren't going to hear anything new until either the government or the Met stand up and say something.
We currently have a run on the pound, which has dropped below 1.50 dollars and it is still dropping.
I suspect this is because interest rates have been cut. That means the government can continue borrowing and I bet the market thinks that is a very dangerous thing given the state of UK's finances.
The Monetary Policy Committee have got to stand up to Gordon Brown and ensure that if there is a rate cut, that borrowing remains within some reasonable limits (I know we are up to our ears in debt already - but we are where we are)
Maybe a clear statement from the Monetary Policy Commitee and also a statement from the Chancellor concerning setting borrowing limits will stop the pounds crash?
Run on the Pound
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In spite of your reasonable sounding, yet, slightly gleeful egging on of that sort of view I'm feeling generally relaxed about the whole thing. Perhaps, a little bouyant.
This is a storm in a teacup and the Tory astroturfing is just so much wind. You see, while other folks have been getting all stiff knecked and sweaty over things I've just been using it as more Zen practice.
The Tories project great size and force but this is merely a perspective. By developing alternative views they turn into pebbles and feeble slaps, and vice versa. But, you'd know this if you'd been paying attention.
Tipping point, maybe, but for whom?
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293 - a police state definition...
- Stopping any motor vehicle on the public highway with more than one male occupant in the event they may be going on a lawful picket
- Banning publication via Police raids on the Offices of several reputable newspapers as they are in posession of extracts of the log book for the vessel that sank the Belgrano - which clearly indicate t was sailing away from the Falkland Islands as ordered to do so - a document that absolutely contravenes the comments made by the then Prime Minister as an excuse for the attack
- Beating up and man - handling members of the public who sought to protest against an athlete who was a mouthpiece for a despotic and evil regime whos presence in this country contravened the then immigration laws and was funded by an evil and despotic newspaper...
Need I go on and on and on...about Police State Britain as it was ....circa 1979-1991
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297 - what and have all the Tory bloggers complaining about waste of BBC Licence Fees..
LOL!
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It seems the mods are being selctive about what goes through.
I would have thought that posts would be processed in the order they are received. The machine knows what its doing, and alloctaes a post number as it gest received.
Processing ought to be straightforward, according to their rules, which I've read often enough.
Provided it passes the litmus tests it should go on the board. If somebody subsequently challenges the post, mostly because they fail to understand its meaning and relevance, then it might be removed.
However posts 278-82 have been delayed for over an hour whilst posts that probably have less merit (how can we lesser mortals possibly know?) have been allowed publicity. Mind you, they are not of a standard to bring merit to their respective authors.
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andydudley just doesn't get it does he?
The issue here is the need to tilt the balance dramatically in favour of the MP precisely so we veer as far away from state dictatorship as possible.
That's why, though not quite immune from the law, MPs must be given massive latitude to snoop around and expose, and why Plod should be out there nabbing burglars and murders like we all thought we'd paid him to do in the first place rather than covering the a**e of Ministers who don't want uncomfortable facts getting to the public.
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"Necessity is the plea for every infringement
of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
William Pitt 1783.
....and Nanny will decide what's necessary and how much freedom we should have.
Just enough not to catch her out presumably.
Maybe some of us here are being hysterical, but far better that than be apathetic and complacent and in a month, a year, five year's time, wake up and find that it's too late and that democracy, no doubt a frivolous bourgeois illusion to some, has gone for good and that we can no longer vote out of office those who are actually supposed to serve us, but may, in our opinion, be failing to do so.
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284 raises a good point but according to the CPS they were only involved with initial dscussions. You are right for most cases CPS makes a decision to arrest, normally they would be consulted for a search warrant.
It seems that when the House of Commons was searched they were told the CPS had agreed.
We need a formal review to get all the facts
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News Flash
Dozens of MI5, Special Branch Officers along with the Anti Terrorist Squad have been rushed to Newmarket for it is rumoured that some stable lads and lassies are rumoured to be carrying out GROOMING which in Browns Britain is now illegal and jeopardises National Security
NOTE:- NO GOVERNMENT MINISTERS HAD ANY PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF THIS EVENT. HOWEVER MEMBERS OF THE OPPOSITION WERE INFORMED, AS WAS THE JOCKEY CLUB !!
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3 comments referred to the moderators today -why ????
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I am fed up with this moderating. Is it the BBC or Draper and the Gameboy?
Whatever, I think we should all dessert the Beeb and watch ITV.
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Obviously annoyed someone, broken the house rules now, no idea why ???
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I am viscerally uncomfortable with the Police action in this case. I refuse to engage in any frankly pointless, demagoguery however of the kind which all to often passes for comment or rational debate on this board.Under E
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Nick, you are to investigative journalism that jelly is to the construction industry.
What, exactly, is the point of a journalist who only repeats Government spin ?
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Yes - the Damian Green case is important - but the continuing destruction of our economy is a more pressing problem.
The leaders in Germany have outlined very clearly the folly of Brown's plans
?I see the danger of creating a new bubble. Massive interest rate cuts and massive borrowing may bring about new problems.?
"How good is a policy package if it has to be changed every other week? How good is it for confidence? The latest British decisions on VAT [value added tax] and income tax, for instance, are inconsistent. Better to wait a bit longer and put forward more durable solutions."
Merkel tells Brown to be responsible
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Hypocrisy and cant. They're right at the top of the list of desirable attributes, followed closely by the ability to focus only on the brief and avoid giving any answer to a question, but instead spout a load of self serving gibberish.
Does anybody believe that leaking material damaging to the government of the day is a recent phenomenon?
Does anybody believe that leaks to the Labour party during the time of the last Consrevative government was the work of tory party members?
Has anybody suggested that the beneficiaries of those leaks, strangely enough including the current prime minister, went around grooming the possible providers?
So Nick, you tried equating this whiole business to the treatment of a non MP in the cash for honours business. When that didn't work you went for this grooming business. What's next? Are you waiting for the latest feverish output from Pete and Al, or have you been grooming somebody else?
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I am viscerally uncomfortable with the Police action in this case. I refuse to engage in any frankly pointless, demagoguery however of the kind which all to often passes for comment or rational debate on this board.Under English(and Scots) law; it is up to the prosecution to secure evidence beyond reasonable doubt before a guilty verdict may be returned. Obviously, I am not privy to the evidence in this case, but nothing I have seen or heard would tend to back up the Police's action in arresting the Opposition spokesman.
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derekbarker @201 wrote:
"At the end of the day, many will see the tories as opposing the actions to help stabilise the economy and rather than deal with the most pressing issues like energy cost and lending, most people will come to the conclusion that the tories are the enemy of the state rather than the helpers."
Fantastic!
Label the Tories as 'enemies of the state' then it will be alright first to arrest them.
Then imprison them.
Then liquidate them.
This is the logical 'conclusion' of your argument.
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Ha ha. I say, what are you Tory chaps doing on an independent news site, by jingo? Get back to the proper news at the Express
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#310
294 - any apologist for Nick Griffin certainly does not deserved to be taken as a serious and respected individual.
You have really disappointed there
But that's the whole point. You don't agree with what Nick Griffin has to say so you're perfectly happy for him to be tied up in court. ANd then tied up again on the same charges.
Don't you understand the cat that this incompetent government has let out of the bag?
Will you be so sanguine when Labour is reduced to the same status in the public eye as the BNP. The politically acquiescent BBC being used to castigate the hate-figures of Brown and Mandelson and Campbel for having utterly wrecked the UK economy. Will you be so sanguine when those vindictive Tories use legislation and precedents your party voted through to vindictively go after the architects of the UK's economic destruction?
It is this short-sighted legislative (and economic) lunacy from this most incompetent of governments that just beggars belief.
They just don't understand what they're doing or why those laws were there in the first place.
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299 Fubar Saunders (ooo sweary name- how daring) wrote:
#273;
How dare you. "Drones.." Is that what you think the electorate are? I've been on record numerous times stating that IMHO Cameron & Co are not ready. This is not about them.
What happened with the Cash for Honours arrests was no different to Cash For Questions during the Major era. Difference was that at least 2 Tories tried to bluff it out and lie in court and at least one, Jonathan Aitken got sent down for it. The Hamilitons were turned into a standing joke and havent recovered since.
Do we really think it was orchestrated with ministerial approval and the PM's knowledge? Do the words Tony Blair, The Serious Fraud Office and BAe ring any bells? There is a precedent.
So anyone who doesnt tow the party line is a right wing drone? A counter-revolutionary perhaps?
I think I can see where your train of thought is leading. And I dont like it.
But, hey, thanks to the politicisation of the police and the manipulation of the press, what are you worried about? Nothing
................................
The Press, including the BBC have been all over this issue. I hold no brief for the police and I do believe this was badly handled. My point is that so were the peerage arrests. I don't remember the same outrage then. It clearly would not have been in the government's interests to orchestrate this matter as the backlash was clearly inevitable.
RobinJD? Infantile and not worth responding to.
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#301 "Duff is his own worst enemy!"
I doubt it. When Morgan Phillips said the same about Voldemort's grandad Herbert Morrison, Ernie Bevin replied "Not while I'm alive he ain't!"
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BORED WITH THE CENSORSHIP OF COMMENTS.
Seems THE WORD GROOM is a BLOGGERS
Achilles heel,despite being used by the MET.
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#310 GAD
Who died and made you responsible for fair play?
I may not agree with anything he (Griffin) says, any more than I agree with anything you (whoever you are) say.
However, he has no less right than you to think or believe what he wants. That's what defines a free society. Once you bar one person, or thought, you open the door to bar others.
I don't want to be around when you start burning all the books that don't fit with your jaundiced view of the world.
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#154 "ALL PEOPLE ARE BEING TREATED FAIRLY ON HERE!"
Do you think so? This is a debate about free speech and freedom of information in a democracy.
If moderation of this debate is perceived to be biased, this will inevitably become part of the debate.
I had five comments removed yesterday; three were subsequently restored.
I have nothing but contempt for any partisan bloggers who seem to be referring comments that they disagree with, just so that others cannot see them. It reminds me of a scene from Hemmingway's "For Whom the Bell Tolls"
Maria to Robert Jordan: "So you have no Fascists in America? ..... When the time comes, they will discover who they are."
The two comments which complained about preferential moderation were deemed to have broken house rules by being "off topic".
Ironically, one, about Middlesbrough, which WAS totally off topic was restored.
Bizarre!
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314 andy dudley
I dont think anybody claims the Thatcher ERA was perfect.
THIS administration have taken matters into
a DIFFERENT ORBIT.
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post 320
Was Mandy helping out???
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313:
A storm in a teacup that has generated nearly 1500 threads and will run and run until PMQ's when it will explode in Gordon Brown's face. It certainly won't be a tipping point against David Cameron if that is your train of thought. The individual who said a few months back that there will be no more banana skins for Gordon until The General Election must be spluttering into his tea right now! There have been at least 3 in the past few weeks.
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This cod outrage reflects not a police state but an arrogance by those in power who assume they can be above the law. Power corrupts. Always has.
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330:
I wonder if laughatthetories is going to do his clown impression once more. GMT 16:48.
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#312 jonathan_cook
This is very serious. The pound is falling against the dollar, the currency of the USA where Gordon Brown tells us this all started.
It may not be all bad news though. US Treasury bonds have become very popular as a safe haven after the Asian markets dipped over the last 24 hours so the demand for the dollar will have been growing recently. (See Ambrose Evans-Pritchard's column in the Telegraph online).
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Is it possible that the lunatics that think we live in a police state do not understand that in a such a state, they would not have the privilege of posting such nonsense?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#312
Most probable reason for the run on the pound was the horrific information released about the forecast for British Manufacturing.
This means that the BOE will almost certainly cut interest rates on Thursday by AT LEAST 1% - probably 1.5 as they will have had a good laugh at the PBR now. (Lower interest rates mean a lower ROI of course - as well as the fact that the results are probably making the UK a worse credit risk (lower manufacturing = lower corporation tax revenues = higher Government debt)
Of course the manufacturing results from America are not that good either - so there may be some halt in the slide Vs the dollar.
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#330
You have to laugh, otherwise you'd simply cry.
What on earth makes you feel this site is independent? I'm giggling so much I can no longer feel the pain being inflicted on my country by your mates.
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330#
"independant news site?"
Independant?? Of what? Government bias and manipulation???
You're having a larf aincha????
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By the way Nick - do you STILL have to refer to the Corfu Yacht on the right hand side of your blog - or have your Labour Party bosses still insisting you keep it there in the vain hope of embarrasing the Tories?
It will soon be an item on the antiques roadshow.
Just remember who will be overseeing the BBC in 2010 - it may be best if you start burning some bridges and building others.
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derekbarker post 201
As always i am to be polite TOTALLY
confused by your statements.
Has the prince of darkness had your blood?
You spout utter utter nonsense.
ARE YOU PROUD OF THE MESS WE ARE IN?
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Does the BBC have any journalists with integrity any more. Nick, Political reporting is more than you simply reading the Labour party press release.
This disgusting abuse of power by Brown's gestapo needs proper investigation and critical comment. Our police service is being subverted and "anti terror" laws abused to attack the innocent and protect those in power
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NHH
The sweariness of the name is neither here nor there. Not there to make a statement in itself, I just thought it mildly amusing at the time of registration. :-)
You dont remember the same outrage for the Cash For Honours arrests?
Well, maybe that depends on your perspective. I certainly remember a weariness of the electorate thinking "we were supposed to have put all this sleaze behind us... New Labour riding to power in 97 promising to be whiter than white and an end to sleaze"
Tory sleaze perhaps. Not political sleaze. And the CFH affair was about party funding, yes? A party that is not far off bankrupt. OK. Regardless of that. Lets look at the difference with this case.
This is potentially much more serious because it is implying that the government of the day is using the police force to carry out its political will to stop itself being embarrassed by its own political failures. Raiding offices in the House of Commons, people who surely should have known about it saying they didnt - and yet their political opponents of the same rank did.
It just doesnt add up. If Gordon is not trying to stifle political dissent, if he is not trying to further alienate the public with "do as I say dont do as I do" - if we had applied the same legal template to him in the 1990's, he'd have ended up being Ronnie Bigg's cellmate - he's going the wrong way about it.
This is meant to be a liberal democracy... that is not acheived at the end of a truncheon. I guarantee you, had the parties been reversed, had this been a Tory government doing this to a Labour opposition front bencher, the level of disgust would have been the same.
Now do you get it?
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U9461192 was, as I understand it, talking about Nick Griffin in the context of double jeopardy not about the rights or wrongs in his case.
Of course, he could have extrapolated his point further to mention that our independent judiciary has done remarkably well to retain an independence of mind in the face of what must have been one of the the most difficult periods in its history. Can a legal expert can cast further historical perspective on this for us?
Nor is the role of the Judges a sideshow to the central core of Nick's blog or our discussion as we saw, again, in the Murer/Kearney trial this past week; not least in so far the Judicary are one of the very planks of the Establishment which some in New Labour saw as antipathetic to their project.
U9461192 also brings our attention to the state of our finances and this impacts upon my own points in 303 that you can't sit at the top table of World affairs unless you can afford to pay for your planes to fly, your aircraft carriers and submarines to be at sea to protect our interests (ie trade) in more than one place at a time. Most of us want peace in the world, but if you think you can influence world affairs when you're skint the context in which your citizens go about their daily business becomes far less secure.
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Having listened to the Home Secretary (who once again failed to give a straight answer to a simple question) one is left to draw one of two conclusions:
She is either a little too parsimonious with the truth (I wont use the "L" word)
or
she hasn't a clue what is going on.
Either way, surely she cannot keep her job.
Then again, looking at her boss, would it be fair for one incompetent to sack another
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greatandydudley
I didn't agree with some of the things the Conservatives did back in the 80's either, but what this Government is doing is far, far worse than that.
Nick Griffin was a very good example of how government can mess with our laws to the detriment of everyone.
Every year new laws and practices are brought in restricting our freedom even more. Our children can't even recite nursery rhymes in case it upsets somebody. Our liberty is being slowly chipped away and unless we stop it soon, we won't be able to stop it at all!
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Again you are simply pathetic. An opposition MP is arrested for gaining information that is embarrassing to the government. That is all that matters in this case. Do we live in Zimbabwe or do we live in a real democracy?
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To the moderators
My contribution at #52 has been in "referred to moderator" status for over six hours and has been overtaken by the addition of 300 contributions since.
If/when it is reinstated, the chances of it being read will have diminshed hugely - possible the motive of the referrer.
Can I ask why it has been in limbo for so long ?
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"#343 Is it possible that the lunatics that think we live in a police state do not understand that in a such a state, they would not have the privilege of posting such nonsense?"
We post it, it gets "moderated".
You have a right to your minority opinion.
We'll see the fireworks on Wednesday.
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(Moderator don't print this on Green blog comments)
Nick, we need some insight on the article BBC at 14.42 today about No 10 and Euro. Is this diversionary politics by Barroso at Brown's time of need ? On the day Merkel damns tax cuts, something's happening. Why has it come out when Parliament isn't even sitting and was this the real price exacted by Mandelson for rejoining the Government?
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@242
You may indeed be narked at a legal search - the real question here is going to be whether it was truly legal. It's clear by now that this was Conservative policy, as David Davis set the research development up before he resigned as Shadow Home Secretary on exactly these grounds of the erosion of civl liberties, and the entire thing was legally checked, which means David Cameron was also clued in. His advice was that it was legally solid, and moreover he appears to have spent the interim boning up on Erskine May, which is rather a weighty tome to hit the Speaker with - he was certainly well into it in August, and appears not to have exited since. One trusts that the representative of Glasgow NE has got his own staff refreshing the little grey cells as we speak, because it's unlikely Wednesday will pass without some resignations on one side or t'other.
A party doesn't prepare to walk out unless it knows pretty well what the situation will be - the situation is very reminiscent of 1648's Vote of No Addresses, with the sole difference that one replaces King with Prime Minister, both putatively militarily spendthrift and economically debatable. That neither were English is also relevant, as one suspects the Labour position was at least as well prepared as that of the Conservatives. We've even had a fresh set of Putney Debates!
And for the non-historians in our midst, the said Vote was the trigger for the English Civil War. I hope I'm wrong, rumour has it I'm not.
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#348 "By the way Nick - do you STILL have to refer to the Corfu Yacht on the right hand side of your blog - or have your Labour Party bosses still insisting you keep it there in the vain hope of embarrasing the Tories?"
My advice is don't worry about it, and leave Mr Robison alone on this one. Whatever the motive for leaving the comment there, the true nature of "Lord" Mandelson's cosy Corfu boating holiday with his new best friend, the Russian Oligarch banned from the States, will come out eventually, and I'm sure it will be a lot more interesting than George O rowing across for a cup of tea. Who knows we might even get another Mandy resignation in before Christmas - then time for one more come-back before the election.
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346# 347# Arf arf
Fnar fnar
Leave the good ol' BBC alone you Tory Blackguards!
Methinks you must be a trifle off-beam
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Well, well.
What twists and turns.
Nick has started another thread!
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JS not fit for purpose as HO secretary , total denial from a politician is conformation of the opposit, she should know better .
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I am amazed that this is situation is not recognized for as serious as it is. The Labour government and specifically G. Brown has a problem with democracy - He did not hold an election within the party to become Prime minister, no general election when he was 'appointed' , no vote on the European Constitutuion a pattern here. Now we have the knock on the door at night to political opponents. This government has shown a chilling further lurch to the totalatarian left.
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#361 laughattheotories
...and who are you working for then?
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I like the fact that this government is doing all the right things.
It kinda makes me feel like I've got A big brother watching over me.
Yip! I'm comfortable and content in the knowledge that the great leader is on top of the world.
Oh, yes, Roll-on-2010, Nick has indeed started a new blog, the head-line of the new blog automatically made me think of that film "MEET THE FROCKERS"
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#160 jonathan_cook
Another well balanced, articulate and concise response.
---
I've been elsewhere awhile and not had an opportunity to contribute as much as I'd like, my first effort back though was moderated away for reasons I cannot fathom. Having said that, it is surprising the number of referrals/removals in the last two Robinson blogs alone.
---
Please can anyone explain for me the difference between a youthful Gordon Brown smirking like the cat that go the cream and the present Damian Green scenario? Politicians of all shades have made use of illicit information to support their arguments in opposition, what has changed? I think I could hazard a guess actually - despite the denials, Smith/Brown/Straw don't really emerge from the whole tawdry episode smelling of roses do they? Collectively, have they made a huge miscalculation?
Notwithstanding, how frequently do journalistic types make use of similar information? Peston springs to mind
fairly readily and if memory serves, his thoughts had an impact on the markets of the day.
Once again the silence from G.Brown esq. is deafening
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356
Answer: because a certain person may have had a go at it. And because moderators let him
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Post 353 IDB123 I think the phrase you are looking for is "economic with the actualite".
It was quite popular during the Spycatcher trial.
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#256 DerekDraper
If the Goverment in your view are doing such a good job of handling the economic crisis, and the Tories have not got a clue, why are Labour not doing so well in the polls?
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No364 Bob. You will have to do better than that. Mr Brown was elected leader of the Labour Party unopposed. We do not elect Prime Ministers, he was elected the same as every other Member of Parliament. The proposal for a European Constitution was withdrawn.
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to those people who dont understand and think the quoting of Mugabe, Stalin, Hitler etc is way over the top. please take time to research and think about how these tyrants rise to power started. eg unquestioning loyal supporters, total reliance on the state for employment, food in mouth, a mass increase and change of law fed by fear, mandate powers given to enforcers, eg bailiffs, car clampers, local authorities, cctv, politicise police, groom press, divide mislead & suppress the public, now what?????
we know whats coming do we wait for the violence to start or .......
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As I understand it MrGreen is suspected of conspiring with the civil servant to obtain information deemed to be in the public interest and not surprisingly, harmful to the government. This is very different from merely being fed a leak then acting upon it as MPs are entitled to do.
The analogy I would use is in the first case, picking up windfall fruit, a reactive and unplanned act and in the second, shaking the tree to get the fruit. The police seem to think that Mr Green might have been engaged in a bit of tree shaking by encouraging the leaker (in ways not yet clear) and perhaps provoking him to breach some of his terms of employment.
Give the police time to find out exactly what has been going on and then come to judgement.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
braveSouter @371 wrote:
"The proposal for a European Constitution was withdrawn."
It was not withdrawn. It was re-named 'Lisbon' and pushed through parliament without the referendum we were promised.
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No375Max. Yes I am aware that both Houses of Parliament voted in favour of the Lisbon Treaty, but there was no European Constitution. We will just have to agree to disagree. Is it true that it is only the nut cases in UKIP that are calling for withdrawal from the EU?
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As a public service will the BBC allow us a vote of confidence in their political editor?
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Littlejohn for political editor.
Start a campaign.
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Or maybe even David Cameron for political editor.
It'll be great.
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Damian Green clearly spent a great deal of his parliamentary time snouting about for redtop media worthy swill and received such on a regular call from a Home Office nerdy mole. -
Unfortunately, for Green and the Conservatives, he's been caught red-handed with his verde-proboscis stuck grubbily into a squalid muck-raked Tory trough he shares with other of his (blue/green?) porcine mates.
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380#
Yeah, course he did.
And naturally, that nice Mr Brown didnt do that did he, during the years he spent climbing the greasy pole in the early-mid 90's?
Grow up mate. You cant use your usual class-envy guff to wriggle off this hook.
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braveSouter @ 376:
Calling political opponents 'nut cases' doesn't do your cause any good.
Withdrawal from the EU may be a radical move - but it is a legitimate, principled - and quite popular - stand.
Personally I'd like the EU to change from a 'political union' to a free-trade zone - you know, like the 'European Economic Community' ( aka 'Common Market') most people thought they were voting for in 1975.
The EU will have to change one way or the other else it will either fragment due to diverging interests, or seize-up under the weight of its bureaucratic over-reach.
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No382 Max Thank you for reminding that abusing political opponents is not particularly wise. However, you may like to consider some of your own recent comments.
a - Nulab - I can assure you it does not exist.
b - Labour Party Police Officers - They do not exist.
c - Mandelson - Are you aware of any crime he has committed?
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To the moderators
My contribution at #52 has now been in referred status for 24 hours. How can this be ?
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isn't it far too soon for all this posturing from both police and politicians? If Green /did/ procure or induce a civil servant to commit a breach of confidence or engage in misconduct according to his contract, parliamentary privilege should not protect him. If the police /did/ over-react (as they did with the other arrests earlier on), then they should be reprimanded.
But how about waiting for the evidence first?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I have just heard the Leader of House say on BBC that the Govt. had introduced the Freedom of Information Act ?so that Civil Servants could publish information if, in their conscience, they believed it was in the public interest?. Does the said Act say where and how this information can be published?
If this is the case (and I may have misheard-note), why is the Govt. hounding and abusing the civil servant who, rightly considered certain information (4 items published) to be in the public interest and chose to give the said information to an MP for publication in the House of Commons?
Note Can the statement of the Leader of the House be checked in Hansard?
Can any throw light on this aspect of the current debate?
This information really does emphasise the disaster that this stupid attempt to discredit Green by the "dinna know anything" Govt.
First Martin "downgraded the office of Sergeant at Arms by depriving it of responsibility for security throughout the whole Palace of Westminster, a feature of the post since 1451, and restricting it to the Commons chamber." and so the unfortunate Sergeant at Arms , thanks to Martin's high-handed behaviour, had no authority to allow anybody to enter the Palace of Westminster or Damian Green's office.
Catastrophe on catastrophe. Really who planned this? One can guess?
If this had happened in "Yes Minister" and "Yes Prime Minister" we would all have been rolling about laughing.
But this is REALITY; I have just heard the Home Sec. speaking and she seems to contradict the Leader of The House regarding the rights, in conscience, of civil servants under the Freedom of Information Act as outlined by the Leader of the House? Just who is right and telling the truth?
Finally, The following seems to suggest that the Police were wrong to accept the Sergeant at Arms signed consent as she did not have the authority to give permission to allow anybody to enter the Palace of Westminster or Damien Green's office in the first place.
This has sinister implications. The police claim that they had a signed consent to enter the Palace and search. But that consent was signed by someone who did not have the right to give that permission. Ergo it was not valid in any event
If this is acceptable, then the police can enter anyone's house by getting a consent from, well, anyone handy, even another policeman, as required. Against the law, As Ed Balls would say "So what"
They did not Know So What Ignorance is no excuse in law. The public have been nailed by that one for centuries. Pay back Time.
For the police to act on a consent by someone not entitled to give it is another question that has to be considered. But with a friend running the inquiry - what chance.
Definitely UK is now a Police State created by Zanulabour!
Please do Not Reject or this will appear else where of BBC political bias!
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Something has just struck me. The Police absonded with data (actually stole) because their access to the Palace of Westminster was based on the consent of the Sergeant at Arms who had NO AUTHORITY outside the House of Commons (based on the Speaker's reforms). In short they had no legal right to do what they did!
The Speaker has now condemned them for taking confidential material and has demanded its immediate return.
However, he does not seem to realise the theft of confidential material could easily be completed before return by down-loading all the data to another device.
It is therefore essential that all data and COPIED DATA must be returned and an independent person should be allowed to confirm that this is done. That is ssome job as all police data would have to be checked to confirm that they were not lying.
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