Nostalgic reminder
There will be more than a whiff of nostalgia in the Commons today and not just because of the ermine robes, the tiaras and the bizarre ancient names (the keeper of the third stick and so on).
No, today's outline of the government's legislative priorities will be a reminder, a nostalgic reminder, of what ministers thought their priorities would be before the recession kicked in. Most of the bills that will be unveiled we will have heard of before in the draft Queen's Speech and even earlier than that when Gordon Brown first talked of his priorities as prime minister. There's a new NHS constitution for example, and a new regime for tackling failing schools.
The PM is aware that this Queen's Speech risks being overshadowed not just by Speaker Martin's statement but by virtually anything else. He will, I'm sure, have a rabbit in the hat to unveil, an immediate policy to tackle the recession and designed to be a cherry on top of the Queen's Speech cake.
What then of Speaker Martin? Well, let me risk sharing my hunch. Love him or loathe him, he cannot be deaf to the pleas for him to grant a debate. I suspect he'll do that and take an emollient tone today. There is only really the nuclear option for MPs who want to criticise him. In other words, attempt to have him removed from office, and I regard that as very unlikely indeed.
The only question is whether, rather like the little boy in the story of the emperor's new clothes, there is a lone figure in the Commons who isn't aware of what they're supposed to do and decides to defy the mood of the day. Will someone speak out challenging the Speaker despite the rules and conventions of the Commons? There will be a nervous wait, not just for Speaker Martin, but for all those who work with him.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~23~RS~)
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The Times has a good list of people who should have visits from the BIB and the events related.
http://timesonline.typepad.com/comment/2008/11/to-assist-the-m.html
Lets hope we actually see fairness since this is not what we currently see with this sorry business.
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Dear Nick,
The only Issue that needs to be clarified in the Quens speech is the Day that Gordon Brown and his Party are leaving Government.
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Gordon Brown is a joke. The way he responded to the Baby P case and now the arrest of a fellow MP, I find disgraceful.
The greater the problems faced by the UK population, the happier he seems to become. Disgraceful
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I'm looking forward to The Speaker being dragged from he seat back to the backbenches, as per tradition.
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How many billions will Brown's "Cherry on the Cake" cost us I wonder?
Also I wonder how effectual the Cherry will be? It couldn't be either more useless and costly as the VAT "fiscal stimulus" debacle could it?
Finally - if there really is a Cherry on the Cake - once you dig around - will it, once again, look more like a bribe that shouts out "please elect me as your Prime Minister (I don't want to remain just a PM who stole the job)"
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Nick, I hope you ask Gordon Brown at his next monthly press briefing whether he expects to be arrested soon
The Times January 4th 1988:
Mrs Margaret Thatcher was at the cente of the political storm last night after the leak of a confidential Whitehall memorandum disclosing that tough new rules are to be applied to state support for scientific research and development.
Officials at the department refused to comment on 'information that fails into someone's hands as a result of an unauthorized disclosure'.
Sources did confirm, however, that the memorandum from Mr Anthony Kesten, a senior official in the department's official Research and Technology Policy Unit, was genuine. They also indicated that a high-level internal inquiry is likely to begin today into how the document came to be passed to Mr Gordon Brown, opposition Treasury spokesman.
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"Will someone speak out challenging the Speaker despite the rules and conventions of the Commons?"
Well, since the Speaker has himself ridden roughshod over 400 years of Parliamentary practice (not to mention the precedent of a member of the governing party being installed as Speaker in the first place), this would be poetic justice, would it not?
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"He will, I'm sure, have a rabbit in the hat to unveil, an immediate policy to tackle the recession and designed to be a cherry on top of the Queen's Speech cake. "
______________________________________________________________________
Well that's all right then, I'm sure he'll solve the recession in one gesture. Phew! SuperBrown to the rescue; yay.
I hope it's a regressive stalinist policy, they're my favourite.
That'll distract us from the ebbing away of civil liberties and introduction of our shiny new police state.
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The Tories have been caught with their pants down. The political air-brush is working over time to hide their embarrassment.
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It was Michael Martin's business to know exactly what was expected of him when he was appointed Speaker, and accepted the position. He has no-one else to blame but himself and should be dealt with accordingly, ie. asked to resign.
Nick - what exactly has this man done for parliament since his appointment?
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Where are the moderators?
How long does it take to approve 10 posts?
Typical Blair Brown Corporation
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The Tory position on all this is surely grandstanding and no more. What if a debate took place? There is no gainsaying that a Tory-leaning civil servant gave information away to an opposition MP. In a case where the boot was on the other foot, there would be the same indignant justifications, and this simple fact can only close down any real debate of serious issues. High drama, high politics indeed, but no high principle from any quarter. If a good thing could come from the affair before Tory bluster does sputtter out, it would be an effective indictment of the dreadful Jacqui Smith, but with all wrath descending on her whipping boy Mr Speaker, that seems rather unlikely. But not totally. His statement, as Nick rightly suggests, will certainly be interesting, and the more interesting the better.
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We need to go back to the good old days.
If someone in high places didn't carry out their job as they should have done then they resigned.
This was the expected consequence.
We seem to have drifted into an attitude recently where no one takes responsibility and the result is one mess after another.
We have seen that in all walks of life.
Not only that but they come away with a nice financial package for messing up.
This means we do not always get the right people for the job.
The speaker should do the honourable thing and resign.
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Nick,
I think the Tories need to be carfeul of overplaying their hand. The arrrest of Damien Green was clearly a disgrace - there was never any realistic prospect of a trial let alone a conviction. It was a fishing exercise and a complete waste of police resources - but outside of the Westminster bubble - the arrest is a secondary issue at best. The public will not forgive the Conservatives for talking about Parliamentary privieges as opposed to the economy at a set piece event like the State opening of Parliament.
DC should bank the offer a debate (which the speaker will shorly make) and leave it at that. Perhaps he could ask for it to be scheduled after the Transport Police report into the investigation.
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The bizare rituals of the Queen's Speech include my MP, Watford's Claire Ward, being locked up and held hostage at Buckingham Palace to ensure the Queen is returned after the speech. I hope she (Claire Ward, not the Queen) doesn't pinch the cutlery!
On a more serious note I cannot remember a time when the Queen's speech has been so overshadowed by other events. Legislation will take a much lower priority in politics over the next year which has interesting implications for the next General Election which seems destined to be exclusively about the economy.
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Dear Nick
The Met Police decided to arrest Damien Green? not Ministers, Sorry i lost it since when have Ministers ordered the arrest of people?
I say this Smith was fully aware of her actions when she ordered the Police to investigate, it is very doubtful that a senior permanent secretary would order Police action without the Knowlegde of the Minister the Protocol would not allow it, this stinks and it goes all the way to the top
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To be honest, the whole ceremony around the Queen's speech bores me, and I find the speaker an anachronism before we get into grandstanding and other egotism from MP's. The architecture looks nice in its own way but parliament was built for another time and place, and I'd rather see the whole thing replaced with something better that more properly reflects the needs of politicians, the media, and public. Burn it down. Build something new.
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Does anyone really think McCavity and our lights on but no-one at home secretary care? Parliament to them is a nasty little place that now and again they have to go to to account for themselves. It is for this reason that they were not outraged that the police cast aside the sanctity of Parliament and raided Damien's offices. Since coming to power 11 years this government has treated Parliament with nothing but contempt is it any wonder that these two dimwits along with Gorbals and Gill it d'nee Pay to Cross me, give a tom about a small thing like the arrest of an MP and his offices being ransacked by plod? Childish though it may be I would like to see a slow hand clap through Martins speech and McCavities speech with all opposition stood with their backs to them show some cahones for once.
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The Queen's speech should be cancelled due to the Damian GHreen affair and instead Gordon Brown should be asked to read this paragraph from his final budget in March 2007:
"my report to the country is of rising employment and rising investment; continuing low inflation and low interest and mortgage rates.. this is a budget to expand prosperity.. our fiscal discipline is the foundation of the strength of Britain's finances"
Dear, oh dear. What a difference a new prime minister makes.
March 07 pound 1.49 to the Euro now 1.16
March 07 pound 2.00 to the dollar now 1.47
It's Crash Gordon and the disappearing economy...
Call an election.
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Thanks for the update Nick
Can you do us a favour and find out when comrade Brun is planning on taking us into the Euro.
Speaker Martin is rubbish. What a humiliating combination of self interest and ignorance he really is.
Lets get a proper speaker. Och i the nu.
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Don't you love the irony of "Lord" Mandy pronouncing on the naughtiness of people who dig around to pull out michevious information?
I mean, you can only behave like that if you either have utter distain for the public or you're so detatched that you don't see the irony.
Oh, and you don't have a problem criticising elected officials when you're nothing but an appointee yourself.
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Good grief, is this still going on?
George Foulkes now claims there was a "threat to national security". That's not exactly damping down the fires, is it?
No-one seems to have covered themselves in glory here, not MPs, not police and not the civil service.
The simple truth is that embarassing leaks only occur if the government has something to be embarassed about.
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Lord Mandelson highlights many of the legitimate concerns people have expressed about the Tories claims of concern, and the Home Secretary has rightly highlighted Grieve's poor judgement.
The police have been independently following the evidence, and the Speaker and Sergeant at Arms acted appropriately under the circumstances.
Apart from Tory bullies wanting a platform to blame the victim, I can't see any reason for an emergency debate.
As for opposition politics, it's interesting that the Liberals want to "coordinate" their approach with the Tories. This sounds a bit like the wannabes taking sides so they don't get punched. I suspect, this weakness is responsible for their low polling.
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18. At 10:48am on 03 Dec 2008, ngodinhdiem
Yes, quite. Thank you for an astute post. Let us even hear what the original investigation (into how Green got his leak and what he did with it and at whose instigation) has to say in its entirety. Far from an over-reaction though, the Tory response is probably about right, in view of the old maxim that the best form of defence is attack. As to the propriety of Mr Green's treatment, the clash of claim and counter-claim is perhaps too distracting at present for one to reflect that in due course we may learn more than we think we know.
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Quite frankly i am surprised Brown is even
bothering with the State Opening of
Parliament.
In view of the ABUSE of Parliament by Brown
and Blair the house is a puppet show.
If MPs do not protest over the Speaker's
actions,they might aswell go home.
What a bunch of spineless MUPPETS.
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I think its sheer hypocrisy for the Labour party to have a bleat about leaks, when they found them so useful when in opposition themselves. DO they not remember, or is it not convinient for them to do so at this moment in time? And for Lord Mandy to wind it up when no doubt he had his grubby fingerprints all over some of those historical leaks is even more laughable!
All this fingerpointing by the Labour party is ridiculous, and the current Home Secretary should investigate why she was informed AFTER the Mayor of London and the Conservative leader, but she won't as "its not in her best interest" to do so.
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"Lord Mandelson has denied telling the head of the European Commission the UK was ready to join the euro"
The Laddie doth protest too much, methinks
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We could do with a 21st Century GUY
FAWKES who doesnt get caught.
I see Voldemort is in OVERDRIVE MODE
snaking & slithering around various media
studios,breathing poison into the AIR.
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You just know that something is afoot when Dandy Mandy does the media rounds suggesting an Opposition conspiracy.
#18
has a good point, echoed by Ian Dale, that the Tories should be careful not to overplay this. Calm, logical and persistent pressure will get the best result on this.
I'm inclined to think that all of this stems from a briefing and communications cock-up rather than a deliberate attempt to besmirch Damien Green. I suggest the reality goes something along these lines;
"The Home Secretary is embarrassed by the leaks and wants them stopped. Normington calls in the police to 'get a result', no doubt making clear how Jacqui Smith feels about the leaks. The police sense an opportunity for a 'great result' after their ignominy in the 'cash for questions' investigation. Jacqui Smith is kept 'informed' but makes clear she doesn't want to know 'how' they get a result, 'just do it'. "
The injudicious action by someone of significance in the Commons of allowing the police to enter Green's office and copy/remove items, and to lock his main methods of communication, has succeeded in raising the temperature very considerably.
Unfortunately both Speaker's statement, and debate if it takes place, will do nothing to restore normality. Only an unreserved apology to Green will suffice. Not very likely is it?
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"The business secretary said he still favoured eventual UK entry but could not remember speaking to Mr Barroso about it recently.
He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "I haven't had a discussion in my memory, with Mr Barrosso about this.
"I think I might have exchanged words when I first went to the Commission in 2004 but not since, no.
"
Alzhiemers?
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18 ngodinhdiem
"DC should bank the offer a debate (which the speaker will shorly make) and leave it at that."
Is that surely or shortly?
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I see the BBC took away one of my posts because I mentioned that Nick thinks rthat Gordon Brown will pull a rabbit out of the hat. In other words is this a leak or am I out of order.
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Shame on you and on John Humphreys.
The interview with Lord Mandleson on the Today Programme was spinless. Not a single answer questioned, everything he said taken at face value and you, Mr Robinson then gave a nice brief summery of his key points. Since when was this neutral journalism?
Whenever Cameron or Osbourne go on the programme they are interrupted, barraked and quizzed. Lord Mandleson comes on and it's like you're asking him if he has anything to tell the dear listeners...
Shameful. Sod your licence fee, I'm not paying it.
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24.
Robin,
On purchasing power, the pound should be about 1.50 to the USD and 1.30 to the Euro.
Pointing to periods when the pound was overvalued is like saying gold is cheap now because it was expensive a couple of months ago.
The USD and Euro beneift in times of financial crisis from the size of their economies, not because their underlying economies are any healthier than ours. Forex rates are also about speculators' positions.
Just ask George Osbourne, plenty of his chums have no doubt made a killing out of punting on the pound's fall, plus the falls in UK banks' share prices.
Now that would make a good police enquiry.
Then call an election!
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Allegedly we have a government that has a political agenda for the next year, and they have asked a deserving pensioner to make the announcement this afternoon.
However, allegedly, there are rumours circulatiing about incompetence, and these are being directed at the speaker, the police and the home secretary.
Allegedely, according to the business secretary who, allegedly, is completely inncoent of any improprieties in his own conduct, and therefore, allegedly, completely above reproach, has been making scurrilous suggestions that the tory party has instigated the current state of affairs.
Allegedly, when there were leaks when the current government was in opposition, these did not occur and the Labour MPs, including the prime minister, allegedly, did not act illegally in any way, shape or form, in making use of them.
Moreover, they would have reported any civil servant who allegedly passed over embarrassing information to them since, allegedly, this was illegal.
Allegedly the prime minister believes that no MP is above the law. I wonder if the law is retrospective? I wonder if anybody believes him? I wonder if he'll attend the commons this afternoon?
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#22 CEH
The architecture looks nice in its own way but parliament was built for another time and place, and I'd rather see the whole thing replaced with something better that more properly reflects the needs of politicians, the media, and public. Burn it down. Build something new.
Charles - that statement alone proves that you cannot be an Englishman.
The Parliament building, in my opinion, is one of the most stunning pieces of architecture we have in London. It's such a pity that its inhabitants fall a long way short of the mark.
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#28 CEH
The Tories have been caught with their pants down. The political air-brush is working over time to hide their embarrassment.
Lord Mandelson highlights many of the legitimate concerns people have expressed about the Tories claims of concern, and the Home Secretary has rightly highlighted Grieve's poor judgement.
................................................
...er what about Lord Mandleson's alleged collusion with Oleg Deripaska? He's moving the spotlight again...!!
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The convservatives will make very little political gain from the DG fiasco.
Reason?
The general public do not care about the sanctity of parliament. In fact you would be hard pushed to find anything they care less about.
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#22 re the Palace of Westminster
'I'd rather see the whole thing replaced with something better that more properly reflects the needs of politicians...'
How about a prison hulk somewhere just off Rockall?
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The Independent outlines how the government plans to give the banks voluntary code of practice legal teeth. Given the banks profiteering during good times and total lack of acumen during difficlt times, this looks like a sensible move.
At the bottom end of the scale we have welfare reform. I agree with the conerns of academics that the outline looks like a "best case scenario" while business enterprise and community development remains poor.
While more stick is unfortunately needed at the top, I believe, more carrot is needed at the bottom. People need real jobs to go to and pleasant environments to aspire and develop. I hope the government accepts this and modifies their plans accordingly.
A lot of folks will be jittery about the short-term economic issues but a calmer political climate can help. By being less distracted by this, hopefully, businesses will invest in creating opportunity and neglected communities will be given equal status as stakeholders in UK PLC.
Stay on mission and we'll get through this, folks.
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Lets hope they do manage to topple martin. He's only another Glasgow born Scottish political mafioso!
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I'm not sure what is worse, having a bunch of incompetents in charge of "security", who can't retain sensitive data in their own charge, and who make unproportionate responses to leaks, or having a bunch of incompetents in charge of the economy, who have no idea of what's happening or what to do about it?
Actually, I am sure. Since both sets of incompetents are the same, I suggest we have an early election and vote them out.
Now can't be soon enough.
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Ref: #22 I decided to start my be nice to Charles NY Resolution early so hear hear Charles.
Then I read his #28 with a reference to Lord 'I am not a quitter' Mandy.
Oh dear, back to square 1 then!!!
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#19, I like the parallel between 'er Upstairs and 'er Downstairs. However, how come it's the MP for Watford who was volunteered? I suspect there's a few who'd have done anything for an excuse for absenteeism this PM.
#27 George Foulkes wouldn't be a relative of Guy, by any chance?
To recall Samuel Johnson, "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel", we bid fair for a wonderful example of that this afternoon, I rather expect. David Davis has clearly resurfaced and is in no mood to respect such games. Not so much a little-boy-lost as an ex SAS officer not taking captives.
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!Let me deal finally with the suggestion that any political or ministerial influence on this or any other police operation under my command. "
"I would strongly refute that I or any senior officer under my command have, or would allow, any improper influence of our operational judgement and actions for political purposes. That is not what we do".
"Can I have the job full time now Jacqui?"
Sir Paul Stephenson
The real question is now not that Jacqui knew but why didnt she know?
Boris knew as overall head of the Met so Jacqui should have known as head of the whole police service and the department that were being looked into
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Allegedly the 'onourable business secretary never spoke to the president of the EU about the euro, nor about britain joing the euro, nor did he, ellegdly, speak to any russian oligarchs about aluminium or timber, or anything else that might have come under his alleged responsibility, and he didn't do this when, allegedly, he was holidaying on the blokes rowing boat.
Allegedly, the business secretary has never been less than scrupulous in any activities that he has, allegedly, been involved in during the last twenty years, allegedly.
His best friend, allegedly, has tried to follow the example set by the noble lord, but, allegedly, he's never around when anything that allegedly might be damaging or embarrassing occurs, allegedly.
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Business Secretary Lord Mandelson said that although he thought MPs should be granted a debate on the issue, there should also be scrutiny of the official at the centre of the row, who he accused of passing sensitive documents to the Conservatives "in an attempt to pursue his ambitions in the Conservative party, allegedly".
Blimey Mandy is after Paul Mertons job on "Have I got news for you", Allegedly
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@43
Ah yes but the public are concerned about the government trampling all over their liberties and this smacks of that and so people do relate to it nicely
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34
Remarkable how much there is to agree with today. May it continue. 34 hints at a further dimension and an interesting one. When the smokescreen (Guardian, posts, passim) clears, there will of course be be the contents of the confidential papers embarrassing to government to play with. Fire drives out fire. The Home office may be thankful that the embarrassment over the police action (an embarrassment shovelled pro tem onto Mr Speaker....his statement eagerly awaited) has forestalled the embarrassment of the policy matters the papers contained.
British politics. Dontcha just love it!
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22 Charles_E_Hardwidge
?We shape our buildings; thereafter they shape us.? - Churchill
I disagree with you that the parliament building should be torn down and re-built.
I have been lucky to be taken on a few tours around parliament through work.
On one of the tours, someone correct me if I am wrong here, but some of the chambers were destroyed at one time and there was the option to rebuild them to suit the needs over the ever expanding number of MP's.
Who ever it was that suggested parliament be restored to the same dimensions was very wise.
They purposefully wanted to retain "the bear pit" atmosphere. On major events, they purposefully wanted to ensure parliament was packed to the rafters - so there are not always enough seats for MP's. That creates an atmosphere of urgency.
Compare those major debates in our parliament to the sterile political scenes we see in other countries.
There is nothing more dull than seeing row, after organised row of sterile politicians listening to the ear piece barely registering any emotion.
So I'm for retaining our "red blooded" politics and the existing architecture.
Can you imagine Gordon Brown in PMQ's - not answering the question in a modern sterile building? With our current system, even if he doesn't answer the system, the pressure of the atmosphere means you can tell when he is obfuscating or being more than economical with the truth.
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I'm curious as to whether this will get posted and, if it does, whether it'll stay.
Certain overbearing characters never cease to attack their hosts. Is this consistent with the teachings of zen?
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Message 40
Oh, what an alleged delight!
Peter Mandelson is allegedly delightful.
I look forward to hearing him being interviewed as I allegedly consider him to be the best brain the Cabinet. Sadly, this allegedly might not mean much.
He was making an allegedly good argument this morning on Today in which he alleged that the economic crisis needed to be dealt with in a structured way. It seemed to me that he already had an alleged structure in mind.
Thern he goes and ruins my alleged optimism with his alleged allegations.
Why can't the government admit they blundered badly over the alleged Damien Green affair. It is alleged that if they back off now it is possible that there need be no resignations. If, as it is alleged, they keep on digging Cabinets heads will roll: allegedly a lot more than in January 1649.
Politics is allegedly the art of the possible. It is also alleged to be a recognition of the impossible.
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Another quote to put to the Dear Leader on his big day as the Queen reads out his mountain of future obligations to our children...
?one cannot build the New Jerusalem on a mountain of debt?.
So why did he? Personal indebtedness higher than anywhere in the world and higher than at any time ever before.
Government debt at all time highs and the budget deficit to reach an astonishing 8% of GDP.
The banking system bailed out with never before seen levels of leverage.
Off balance sheet government debts higher than ever before.
Why did you build your Jerusalem on a mountain of debt, Gordon? Why? What were you doing?
Call an election.
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"Lord Mandelson has denied telling the head of the European Commission the UK was ready to join the euro"
"Lord Mandelson has denied telling the head of the European Commission the UK was ready to join the euro"
This is very likely to be true what you need though is to switch on your Mandelson filter and understand that zaNuLabour are in many cases lawyers.
Lawyers believe the true comes in versions.
So he didn?t say ?the UK was ready to join the euro"
But he did say ?the UK will be ready to join the euro when the pound goes sub zero"
So stop accusing him of lying.
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Gordon Brown's much-vaunted Constitutional Renewal Bill - which would give MPs the final say over war and remove a ban on protests outside Parliament - has also been put on hold, to return when Parliamentary time allows.
What a shocker.
Brown clearly knows that protests are on the way
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o_O
I've said it's nice in its own way, so that acknowledges its architectural qualities, but my tastes and sentiments have always pointed in other directions.
I've got the link diaried somewhere, but there's an interesting comment on why a Steve Jobs would succeed in California but not in Britain. People like us tend to be egomaniacs focused ten steps ahead of the curve, and Britain is just to messy and backward looking for that: like being the smart kid in a ghetto school, or OS X versus Vista. Can't help it. It's just the way people like us are built.
One minor success I've had is persuading my local politicians to remove planning restrictions on the city centre, and talk up a previously ghettoised community as "a place people would like to visit. My personal vision is that the city develop its shopping district like Tokyo's Ginza district, and bring more added value business, like law, design, and so forth into an area with emerging potential.
There's some interesting ideas emerging about the workplace that mirror turning libraries and shops into more social environments. Likewise, I'm impressed by the potential of Swedish building and traditional Japanese house design principles. Britain's building stock doesn't fit the modern world and while modification can help repurpose some buildings, sending the bulldozers in has advantages elsewhere.
So, I'm just putting this on the table to see what happens. Some folks won't understand it and other folks will tear their shirts over it, but I've found most folks come around eventually if there's anything in there worth developing.
Modern Britain is a foreign land compared to the Britain I was raised in and the upbringing I had, and modern Britain is a foreign land to people in the future. You're picking up on differences in upbringing and design vision, and jumping to the conclusion that I'm not British. Well, define British. Labels often hide more than they reveal, so it's probably better not to cling too tightly to them.
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Among the more eye-catching measures thought to be included in proposed welfare reforms are lie detector tests for people claiming benefits - already used by 25 councils - to try to reduce fraud
Its not a true test though is it.
The test in use by the 25 councils is a phone voice stressometer that would unfairly prejudice about people that are nervous on the phone.
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#47 - I am rather surprised that my post has "referred to the moderators". I thought it rather well balanced. Perhaps the moderators could actually look at it now.
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Among the bills not included is the Communications Data Bill, thought to include proposals for a giant database of all phone and internet traffic, which has been put out for further consultation.
Look out in the Grauniad for the job ad for posts in this consultaion. money for old rope for anyone that can manage an SQL database and a gilt edged pension to boot
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Are we really to believe that when Ms Smith et al return to the Opposition benches at some time in the future they will scorn any data not received through approved governmental channels?
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When the speaker makes his statement, I think it should be taken on the same basis that the government have decided that they take statements from us.
Should the speaker have failed to mention at the time, something that he now relies on, this will be taken into consideration
You see the judicial system has changed - to block suspects from using some of the self same tricks that blair/brown/labour have become addicted to over the past decade.
Source for the Goose Mr Martin; Source for the Goose.
and
Follow the yacht Nick; follow the yacht.
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Do you not think that much of the furore over the police action against Damian Green is maybe misdirected? I think this is one time where politicians, and dare I say some polititical bloggers, are too concerned with the confines of westminister over the wider concerns of the country.
While parliamentary priviledge, tradition and confidentiallity is important what I, and I suspect many people out here in the real world, see has much more to do with the grossly disproportionate action of the police. Using anti terrorist squads, 9 hours detention and house/office searches for a trivial information leak is not the England we know and used to love!
Recent governments have been handing out laws, rules and authority like sweets. increased police powers, tax/ customs, powers of search and entry all the way down to council jobsworths searching recycling bins and handing out fixed penalties. The citizens of this country have never been so harried and harrassed by rules and authority and 'process'.
So what do I see in parliament? The lovely sight of lots of chickens coming home to roost. I'm absolutely delighted to see an MP treated with the same level of disrespect and lack of consideration that parliament has decreed for the rest of us.
just maybe it will make them pause before passing thye next restriction to our traditional freedoms.
Chris
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After watching and listening to various comments about the Green issue, I ask if Speaker Martin will say he didn't know anything about the police raid.
Will Jill Pay have to fall on her sword?
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What did the Queen think of her speech?
Prince Philip reacted for us all when he met Jack Straw afterwards, he asked to look in purse containing the speech and mimed taking it out and throwing it away.
Three cheers for Prince Philip!
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Nick,
just listened to the Queen's speech. Anybody who does not think that there will now be a spring election then they need to enter the real world.
Brown is hoping for an Obama bounce in America, end of story. The spring will give Gordon the only chance he has. If he doesn't cut in run then he will become more of a lame duck PM than he already is.
So Gordon take my advice, go for it in the spring, do not be gutless, take a risk. Then when you are defeated you can scuttle off to the House of Lords with the rest of your pathetic government.
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Ha! Did you see Philip go through a mime of chucking the speech away at the end of it all! Priceless. Another one who is not impressed by the bloke what wrote it.
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#62
Allegedly, but only by his enemies, and others.
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##66 CEH
Charles, you misread my post. I said that you weren't an Englishman. I didn't say you weren't British.
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#59
Hope it stays, let's see.
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66. Charles you are surely NOT and Englishman. You say in an earlier blog that Charles E Hardwidge is your real name. Then who, pray is Scott Miller, and who is Bob Roberts of Worcester - or is it Worcester Mass.?
You seem to hate us English people so much and have such an opinion on our politics it is curious you even bother to write.
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The test in use by the 25 councils is a phone voice stressometer that would unfairly prejudice about people that are nervous on the phone.
Voice stressometer? That Robert Peston bloke would blow it to pieces.
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Has the dodgy lord any comment about Moses Brown using leaked documents when in opposition. That was ok then and the civil servant in question was doing his duty in exposing the Tories failures..
Of course Gordon not to be seen anywhere , The twice sacked lord is behaving more and more like the PM , be very careful Gordon, the man has been a bit too kind to you of late.
PS : Nick can you tell us why we see so much of Mendelson on the BBC ( radio or TV )?
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@ 22 to Quote you CEH, "Burn it down, build something new"
---------------------------------------
You are advocating burning down Parliament, CEH?
You have fallen foul of a law that your beloved Labour party created. You have just incited terrorism, prepare to be detained without charge....
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@66
"or OS X versus Vista. Can't help it. It's just the way people like us are built"
OS X correct me if I am wrong but OS X was introduced in 2001 so is now 7 years out of date.
THats you that is
Suck it up
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#66
I've got some cans at home where the labels have come off. I no longer know what's in them.
Should I shake them up and down to see if they are liquid? Of course they might just be a little soft and squashy, like a fruit.
They might of course be poisonous, or harmful in some way. How could I know? There are no labels.
Best to just throw them away, methinks.
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I don't think Mandelson is in a position to lecture anyone on ethics. How does a man get back into high office having had to resign not once but twice for impropreity, and was a pass- master of using leaks when in opposition.
Another case of Labour do as I say. not as I do
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To the many debaters considering the layout of the house: it was Churchill who decided to keep the face-to-face layout when urged to go for a hemicycle, on grounds of accountability.
To those concerned with this afternoon's activity, the Commons Order Paper reads:
11.30am House of Commons - Commons Chamber
Oral Questions to the Secretary of State for International Development.
12pm Oral Questions to the Prime Minister.
12.30pm Urgent Questions, Ministerial Statements (if any).
(1) Lord Carter's review of prisons
(2) benefit uprating and pensions.
Presentation of Bills
(without debate).
Estimates Day:
(1) Standards of conduct in public life
(2) Benefits simplification
(may continue until 7.00 p.m., at which time the Questions will be put on all outstanding Estimates).
Statutory Instruments (Motions for approval)
(without debate).
Adjournment Debate:
Scallop dredging in Lyme Bay - Mr Oliver Letwin
(until 7.30 p.m. or for half an hour, whichever is later).
I observe that the presentation of a paper on standards of conduct in public life is being passed on the nod. Oh to be a scallop, now that winter's here...
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LEAK ALERT! LEAK ALERT! :
"He will, I'm sure, have a rabbit in the hat to unveil, an immediate policy to tackle the recession and designed to be a cherry on top of the Queen's Speech cake."
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Can't wait to watch Labour take the battering they deserve.
Come on Queen Liz, bonk the whole sorry lot of them on the head with your sceptre.
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I suggest that CEH be completely ignored in this debate from now on. Not because, as usual, he posts utter drivel, but because he has identified himself as a terrorist sympathiser and advocates the burning down of Parliament. Therefore he has no rational answer to this debate about the highest court in the land.
Oh, and It was not the tories that outlawed such thoughts, but his beloved Labour Party.
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As heard on Wogan this morning.
Poor old dear mislaying her peach again and needing all these fine men and women help her look for it
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In view of the current furore together with the economic crisis into which Mr Brown has led the country and Mr Martin's cavalier approach to spending taxpayers ' money, perhaps it would be of benefit to both the country and the exchequer if Mr Martin resigned.
As for the hoo-ha going on at the moment, surely the crux of the matter is the apparently never-ending cock-ups emanating from the Home Office. If the government had had iIs way they would all have been swept under the carpet. Is Ms Smith going to assume responsibility and take the honourable action or has honour among politicians been outsourced to India?
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@74
OOH missed that where can i find a clip showing it.
The ald Duffer is great value for money as he always calls a spade exactly what it is and never a shovel
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Nick:
a new regime for tackling failing schools
How about a new regime for tackling failing governments?
How about a new regime?
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Fed up of bias?
Come on down to power-to-the-ppl at blogspot dot com, your one stop shop for incisive political commentary and Labour-bashing.
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#76 flamepatricia
Ha! Did you see Philip go through a mime of chucking the speech away at the end of it all! Priceless. Another one who is not impressed by the bloke what wrote it.
Yes - I saw that too. I think perhaps he should have thrown it away before the State Opening of Parliament.
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No61 Robin. Be patient an election will be called when Mr Brown decides. I would be interested in your view on having a fixed parliamentary time. The Chartists called for annual parliaments.
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Damian Green is probably the most important issue ever if you care about your freedom and democracy in this country.
The fact that police can overturn all the procedures of Parliament and arrest and search the office of a serving MP on no concrete evidence but just on a hunch is outrageous. Opposition MPs must be allowed to bring this Government to account even if it embarrasses them. We have the most secretive Government ever and it seems it wishes to close down any voice who opposes them, this can not be allowed to happen.The security issue after all is not Damian Green it is the Government employing what could be potential terrorists in the security service and Damian Green was right to inform the public.
The police have become too political and powerful under Labour using terrorist legislation in any way they think fit, they most certainly need to be reformed and start dealing with the crime the public want them to solve.
Now it seems the police and the Government are trying to smear Boris Johnson in an effort to cover their total failure of following proper procedure.
Mandelson and Brown would have spent half their lives under arrest for leaks if this had happened when they were in opposition.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Yes, I'm aware of the quote and used it myself in here a few times. Form and attitude does shape us but there are competing perspectives.
Your description of the parliamentary building and psychology is good for what it is but how much it's useful and how much it impedes change is worth asking.
Other folks would put this more poetically or better but the last few minutes of Babylon 5 has an interesting narrative folks may like to reflect on.
(Man, I cried like a girl after watching that and had to blow the snot out of my nose.)
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#24 Robin JD
Great point - I don't think anyone else had noticed the economy detriorate since March 2007.
I'm not sure that you understand the exchange rate point you make - in times such as these, it is actually helpful to our economy to have a weak pound (within reason), as it makes exports more profitable. Sorry that your shopping trips to New york have become more expensive, but I guess you'll live...
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Government just passed a new law. It is now a criminal offence to cause a nuclear explosion.
What a waste of parlamentary time that was.
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86#
Hear Hear.
Derek, Charles, et al, cant you see that this is what the floating electorate is fed up to the back teeth of? No-ones saying the Tories would be any better, but doesnt it show how cynical and twisted some of us have become as a result?
I even found myself agreeing with one of Balhamu's posts last night (never thought I'd see the day) ref what could and in hindsight should have been done to stop the economy sliding into a tailspin.
I'm also starting to think seriously about some of the charges of Tory grandstanding... and I think I may be in broad agreement... reason being thus:
This is at least the second, probably third open goal that Cameron has faced in 12 months, where the PM can be exposed for what he is; a megalomaniac who isnt fit to run a bath. If he pulls his punches again today, then he truly is not fit to lead either the Conservative party or the nation.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
At 10:48am on 03 Dec 2008, ngodinhdiem wrote:
"The arrrest of Damien Green was clearly a disgrace - there was never any realistic prospect of a trial let alone a conviction. It was a fishing exercise and a complete waste of police resources"
Interesting theory on another comment thread in the TG - that the intention of the exercise was precisely to get either Johnson or Cameron to step in and so generate "Tory leaders try to block police terrorism enquiry" headlines. Which would explain nicely why they were told but the HomeSec carefully kept in a state of implausible deniability. But sadly for the Govt, their bluff was called when the Tory leaders refused to follow the script and so the Police had no option but to proceed.
This would also nicely explain Mandelson's surprising level of hypocritical condemnation of a practice he and Brown raised to a fine art whilst they were in opposition. It is always frustrating when a devious plan backfires on you, isn't it?
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Nick,
I think that there ought to be more made of the actions of the Duke of Edinburgh after the speech was given. As he and the Queen wre leaving they had a quick chat with Jack Straw, who had a bag with the speech in it. I saw the Duke reach into the bag and then pretended to pull the speech out of the bag and then throw it away in a very disdainful manner. I think that his actions mirrored how I felt about it. A complete and utter waste of time, it was pathetic.
Also on the way into the Lords, Brown was rabbiting away to Mr Cameron and David just ignored him. His silence said so much. I don't think that David likes Gordon at all, not one bit. It's time to bring on the election, it is time to lock and load.
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I have yet to see an answer, by the people who support Green's arrest, to the question. Should PM Brown now be arrested for receiving and publishing leaks? Yes or No?
Balahmu tried, but only by asking another unrelated question and then exaggerating his own case.
The very idea that Cameron should open up ALL government documents, scrap the Official Secrets act and allow everyone to see everything is palpably absurd. As there is NO evidence whatsoever that ANY official secrets were leaked by Galley to Green, then ANY reference to the official secrets act in this case is pure mischief making and nothing more.
It speaks volumes that those delusional labour supporters on this forum suffering from extreme cognitive dissonance are still desperately trying to point to a crime (that has not even been alleged by the Government or the police) to have possibly,maybe (in their own minds) have been committed, to distract people from the real and serious crime of Contempt of Parliament, and refuse to answer a SIMPLE question of should Brown face the exact same treatment for the exact same action? Yes or No?
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@105. At 1:05pm on 03 Dec 2008, RachelBlackburn
Nicely put. And sadly all too plausible.
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#106 TAG
It certainly is, but I don't think the bottler can bring himself up to the mark.
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On both sides of this debate there is intelligent analysis of the issues. However, without wishing to sound pompus, there are also a large number of posts which appear childish and at the level of the play ground - turns me off and probably does the same for the electorate - take care
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95 Power-to-the-ppl Indeed I am. A useful facility. [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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just listened to the Queen's speech. Anybody who does not think that there will now be a spring election then they need to enter the real world.
Yep. And entirely consistent with bringing pressure to bear on the banks to defer repossessions for six months. I e after he makes good his escape. Saddle the Tories with the worst repossession statistics. The worst deficits. The IMF.
Just gotta keep them plates spinning for another few months.
All their fault. It wasnae me. I'm great me.
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Spot on Prince treat them with contempt,
just as they have treated the Plebs.
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107 Hear Hear.
They bluster and they attempt to confuse but not one of them has answered this question.
Just like brown and his bullies, they love dishing it out but really don't like the reverse.
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What part of this investigation do the tories not get. A civil servant was parachuted into westminster, where he fed information as a tory activist to a tory MP over a 2year period.
I think Dominic Grieve, the tory shadow attorney General of the tories, has shown a very weak understanding of the position and is clearly not comfortable on the actual legality of this investigation.
Jeez, the tory do nothing party, weak on economics, weak on crime, the light mob of the political scene are drift wood.
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#107 purpledogzz
I would like to say, yes, that Brown should have been arrested, but back then, MP's were far more mindful of the workings of Parliament than they so obviously are now.
The current Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards is Mr John Lyon CB. His responsibilities include advising MPs on their conduct and investigating complaints. He also advises the Committee on Standards and Privileges.
Any complaint that an MP has breached the Code of Conduct should be addressed to the Commissioner. I would like to know if this man was advised of the impending arrest of Mr Green.
I would also like to know if Mr Lyon, or anyone else, ever advised Speaker Martin about the conduct expected of him?
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So, whilst we are waiting for the speaker to make his staement and, hopefully answer questions, and the Home Secretary to stop stalling and make a satement and answer questions, tomorrow, we are left with other governmental shortcomings to be reviewed.
The economy is not looking any better, surprise. Unemployment is sneaking up, althohg when you listen to ministers they are still in denial over the whole thing.
House prices, the prop that underpinned most of the government's economic "growth", are still in decline, making most of us worse off.
Those of us who will no longer have a job, and hence no income, but still have a mortgage on a house, will find it increasingly difficult to service the debt and, crucially, find it diffcult, if not impossible, to sell the house. If the lenders, acting responsibly, hold off taking possession for six months, what are they going to do afterwards? Sell it in a "fire" sale situation? Is that going to make house prices go up?
Let me see. If I were buying a house, would I buy now, in a falling market, or wait until repossessed homes go on sale in six months time? Tricky.
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98 Susan.
Do you understand what 'Operational Independence Of The Police' means. If so, let the law take its course. It has recently been described as the jewel crown of of our judicial system. It does not operate in Totalitarian states.
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#115 derekbarker
Mr Green has not done anything wrong. Nick Clegg said exactly that on the BBC this morning. What part of that do you not understand?
You said...
Jeez, the tory do nothing party, weak on economics, weak on crime, the light mob of the political scene are drift wood.
...that's why the Conservatives are leading again in the polls...and in case you're wondering where that came from, NR said that just after the opening of Parliament this morning.
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Dear Mr
Charles E Hartwidge
Do you also believe in the tooth fairy
There is more than the whiff of
Labour Rebuttal unit about you
Not up for a peerage are you?
Lord Mandelson highlights many of the legitimate concerns people have expressed about the Tories claims of concern, and the Home Secretary has rightly highlighted Grieve's poor judgement.
The police have been independently following the evidence, and the Speaker and Sergeant at Arms acted appropriately under the circumstances.
Apart from Tory bullies wanting a platform to blame the victim, I can't see any reason for an emergency debate.
As for opposition politics, it's interesting that the Liberals want to "coordinate" their approach with the Tories. This sounds a bit like the wannabes taking sides so they don't get punched. I suspect, this weakness is responsible for their low polling.
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#95 #111
Priceless chaps - you never fail to split my sides
"Fed up of bias" "Labour bashing"
No contradiction there then - or was it irony?
Get back to the Express site - no bias there either
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It seems to have gone quite recently on the other half of the old Home Office front. We know the bit in charge of policing is as rubbish as it has ever been, which is why it was split in two, but what of the Justice half?
Have any new prisons been built in the past year? I ask because that's around the time that the prison population was level with the amount of accommodation available for it. So, have less crimes been committed in the past year, so nobody needs to go to jail?
Or are convictions being managed along with the capacity of the system to handle them? In other words, if 10 people finish their sentences in one day, can 10 people be sent to jail?
The government seems ever more keen to make more and more actions criminal offences, but lacks the ability to punish wrongdoers.
And on that subject, if that Abu Qatada person is so keen to leave the country, and we don't want him here anyway, why do the authorities find it necessary to stop him? Is it because they fear he might slip back in and evade detection?
If not, let him go, and good riddance.
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#38 rrwholloway
"Shame on you and on John Humphreys. The interview with Lord Mandleson on the Today Programme was spinless."
Couldn't disagree with you more. Now if you'd said "spineless", I'd agree with you . . . . . .
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I think the tories on this blog should tread very carefully.
I remember reading a blog that outlined the precarious position of English nationlism spilling over into greater support for groups like the BNP.
If you have a weak opposition like the tory party, that tries to gain support on leaked immagration issues, while holding no other solid policies, is a very dangerous and a damned out-look.
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Ha ha ha
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So Brown wants lie detectors to catch benefit cheats.
Lie Detectors
I'm not sure I'm happy with that. Yet more big brother policies from this government.
Yes - welfare cheats are a big problem. Surely just some basic management skills are required? For 10 years this government has strived to introduce political correctness - which creates an environment that welfare cheats have exploited.
If only instead of political correctness, common sense had been allowed to prevail.
In addition to common sense - here is a policy idea on how to incentivise people to work fairly within the system:
Earned Equity
Brown should treat people in the same manner in which he would like to be treated.
If Brown pushes forwards with lie-detectors, then I call for Gordon Brown to be strapped up to a lie detector each Wednesday for Prime Ministers Questions.
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I agree, in pure strategic terms a more positive, consensual, and patient approach can help sidestep some of the race to the bottom cynicism that's become common currency.
(I wrote some stuff afterwards but was running into the problem of killing a flower with love, so trimmed it. Said it all before anyway, and I want to give my mind a break to let some new stuff in.)
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@115
And doesnt that expose how poor the recruitment policy is on people that are going to take up sensitive positions.
That alone is departmental incompetance.
Nearly as bad as employing 5000 illegaals as security guards one would think.
You're barking up the wrong tree Mr Barker
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#115
Barker demonstrating yet again that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
What actual crime?
On the other hand, considering that with every post you undermine the government's position, good on yer, and keep going.
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Let me see. If I were buying a house, would I buy now, in a falling market, or wait until repossessed homes go on sale in six months time? Tricky.
Well I sold out in Oct 2007 although sale didn't complete till Mar 2008 (Talk about getting your timing right).
Thing is I knew this was a bubble since 2001. I just don't 'get' why nobody else did. More particularly the government and then act on that.
I also knew (know) that when the bubble burst the 'easy' way out for the government will be to print money and let slip the dogs of inflation.
My money in the bank risks becoming worthless. This has been spotted by the foreign exchange markets but so far the statistics factory is still peddling the story that deflation is the major risk.
Sooooo. In theory house prices should be 10% cheaper in six months time (and 20 -25% cheaper in twelve months time). But at some point all that printed money (8% of GDP) will destroy the value of Sterling and we will be into inflation. This will destroy my savings but inflate away the debts of the irresponsible.
I know where the swing votes are. And it isn't rewarding the prudent and responsible.
Property bust nailed on. Followed by rampant inflation/trashing of the currency. Absolutely nailed on certainty and in progress as I type.
Further interest rate cut tomorrow. 8% GDP deficit.
Inflation. Massive inflation. Sterling collapse. Guaranteed.
The trick is to pick the window where there is still house price deflation and before the general public becomes aware that inflation is about to destroy their savings and they'd better buy something. Anything. Probably a six month window starting Oct/Nov of next year to get the best trade-off.
House prices should be 35 - 40% off their peak but inflation not yet too alarming. Mid single digits probably.
But for clarity the UK's economy is destroyed. And Gordon Brown destroyed it. The lunatic.
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"He will, I'm sure, have a rabbit in the hat to unveil"
Sounds very much like a leak that awaits publication. But after the PBR "leaks" to BBC journalist the public should not be surprised . Neither will there be a Police investigation to identify the "leaker"
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Sir Paul said the police made the decision to arrest not ministers. Saying anything else would loose him his job -this one or the next.
But that is beside the point.
1.Why was the DPP not asked. They asked the CPS about other parts of the inquiry. Why not this, the most important part?
Sir Kenneth MacDonald, the former DDP made clear last night his disquiet and assured everyone the DDP was 'informed but not consulted' about 30 mins before. The arrogance and stupidity beggers belief. It was not urgent. They had days. What does it say about their judgement elsewhere?
2.He says ministers did not make the decision - but were they informed? If so why did they not ask if the DDP had been consulted rather than leave the decision to 2 men who want to be the next Commissioner.
3.Why was the search of the House consensual? Were the authorities told the DDP had consented?
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#125
You are to be congratulated. You managed to spell ha correctly three times in succession.
Do you have any other words in your vocabulary?
Eh? Eh? Eh?
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100. At 12:56pm on 03 Dec 2008, Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
"Other folks would put this more poetically or better but the last few minutes of Babylon 5 has an interesting narrative folks may like to reflect on."
What about the end of B5 season 3 instead? The part where the supposedly 'good' Vorlons* were exposed as ruthless, manipulative and largely conscience-free liars, and expelled from the galaxy along with their Shadow enemies.
---------
* The Vorlons were favour of extreme order and regulation, including centralised power and thought control; everything run for their benefit and not for the lesser people below them. The views of these subordinate groups had to be changed to fit what the Vorlons wanted, and then they were used as cannon fodder to fight the Vorlons' war for them.
Not that the Shadows and others (eg the Psi Corps, Earth Dome's President) weren't wanting pretty much the same, but at least they were more open about it.
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Dear Nick,
"Question, ?
"who cares if the QUEENS speech is side lined, and who cares what happens to Damiem Green, ? dOES IT AFFECT THE PUBLIC, from reading the Have your Says, no one could care less about Brown, Green, or the Queens speech, The over riding issue is when she makes her speech,"wHAT IS THE DATE=GORDON BROWN IS TO GO"?
oNLY 20% OF THE ENTIRE POPULATION HAVE AN INTEREST IN THIS THE OTHERS COULD NOT CARELESS.qUITE HONESTLY THE WORD ON THE STREET IS WHAT A BUNCH OF LOONIES/
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#124 derekbarker
I think the tories on this blog should tread very carefully.
I remember reading a blog that outlined the precarious position of English nationlism spilling over into greater support for groups like the BNP.
If you have a weak opposition like the tory party, that tries to gain support on leaked immagration issues, while holding no other solid policies, is a very dangerous and a damned out-look.
Is this what you've been reduced to, Derek?..associating people who don't share your views with the BNP.....you really are the end.
Try reading Guido. He outlines the precarious position of the Labour party very well.
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#124
Oh dear, when you run out of positive ideas, you resort to equating us with the BNP.
From there it is but a short step to denying us the right to speech.
I know you like to bring everyone down to your level, but this is too much.
Get up off your knees.
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I didnt see a rabbit
Unless Jacqui had one stashed somewhere
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With this regime the headline measures are usually designed to grab headlines rather than actually solve problems
Take this local democracy business sounds good but I wont beleive a word of it until they scrap these vicous recycling laws--Im highly pessimistic that will happen
The really interesting bits are the clauses they slip in to other laws with totally different titles , that they want to go unoticed
they usually involve the following
Police state laws such as in todays Daily mail whereby they are now proposing to make not producing ID a criminal offence punishable by a huge fine and Jail---straight our of Nazi Germany that one
Enriching themselves, quietly increasing the amount of taxpayers cash consumed by such loathsome people as michael martin
reducing the degree of accountability for themselves
Devising means of raising revenue by any means possible
With this lot is the bits they dont tell you about that are worrying and that have genuine significance
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22 - CEH
Not very Zen!
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You asked "Are the Police in Retreat" - answer = Yes. The bit of the saga I'm really enjoying is Sir Paul Stephenson saying "The police must be able to act without fear or favour". What exactly does that cliched sentence mean? Does it mean thay can ignore the agreed conventions between the Executive, the Police and Parliament - without worries? Why does Sir Paul talk as if he were an innocent man - when he knew beforehand that entering the commons on the evidence before him was not allowed - as it was political, not criminal. He carefully put the Serjeant at Arms' head firmly in the noose - a political act of self-preservation on his behalf. Sir Paul and others, were, in my opinion "acting in favour" of the Labour Executive and specifically the Home Secretary, in the hope of being considered in a favourable light when she decides who the new full time Commissioner of Metropolitan Police will be.
Here in Britain we generally don't mind being policed by upstanding members of the community. We will not tolerate a bent copper.
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#128
What it clearly exposes, Is a very weak conservative movement, enshrined in the mode of conspriacy thought.
When Mr Galley gained the position in the civil sevices, did he fail to mention his ties with the conservative party?
#129
herb, what toxic tripe you talk, stop being so personal and politically numb, why are you agreeing with something you would normally not agree with, toryboy.
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115 derekbarker
One issue about the search of parliament needs to be highlighted. The sargeant At Arms was told by one of the police investigating team, that the case was solid and HAD THE FULL BACKING OF THE DPP.
This was falsehood, as the DPP had made no such undertaking. I would suggest that the officer in question not only be suspended from duty but also be investigated - I am pretty sure that telling blatant lies in the course of an investigation is itself an illegal act.
But its worse than that as the police have been given greater powers for arrest, can use tasers, can call on armed support at the drop of a hat etc. And yet there are still officers that will resort to bad practice from the past. Remember the faulty convictions for Birmingham 7, Guildford 4 and so on?
A way forward, is perhaps to hive the police away from the Home Office and create a new ministerial post - Police Minister. Generally, the Home Office appears to be too large to administer properly. Some very able politicians from both Con and Lab, have found this job to be too tough to handle.
Do you not also think it crazy that the Home secretary has a say in appointing London's top cop and the mayor none, but the mayor has the power to sack him or her?
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#130
You seem to be swimming against the tide here. No credible economist thinks that inflation remains a risk, In fact, the opposite appears to be true - everyone says that we are in for a prolonged period of deflation.
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Barking mad @124 said...
"I think the tories on this blog should tread very carefully.
I remember reading a blog that outlined the precarious position of English nationlism spilling over into greater support for groups like the BNP.
If you have a weak opposition like the tory party, that tries to gain support on leaked immagration issues, while holding no other solid policies, is a very dangerous and a damned out-look."
In your haste to pour scorn on anyone who doesn't agree with your sort of politics..i.e aggression bordering on threatening;you seem to have forgotten one minor point.
The whole row revolves about the Shadow Immigration Minister.
Forgive me if I am appearing a bit dim..but doesn't that kind of explain why the 'leaks' were about immigration issues?
C'mon,sonny boy..keep up,will you?
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#130
Couldn't agree more. The problem is they have no clue what they've done.
They've impoverished the people.
They punish the people who save, and have done so since they came to power.
They deter the people who might invest from doing so.
They play sleight of hand financial tricks on everybody.
They invent their own measurement of price inflation, to suit their ends and not ours.
They borrow more than is prudent, and pretend that the finances are sound enough to cope with this.
They deny that things like PFI and guarantees offered to NR and other banks fall into the realm of public sector debt.
They oversee a universal fall in the pound against all currencies, causing the price of ALL imported goods and services (and there are many) to rise.
Then they plan to issue more debt, making the long term future of all our finances even more precarious.
Dress up a cut in VAT as a massive boost to the economy at a time when people's jobs are disappearing and nobody sensible is spending what they haven't got (unlike the government).
Announce future tax rises to offset the cost of the non-giveaway, and hope that we won't notice.
Then, there are suggestions that they haven't gone far enough.
They haven't gone far enough away. That's the problem.
In the name of common decency Brown, Go and go now.
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I don't normally contribute to this blog - just derive great entertainment from the contributions - especially the total tosh from Messrs Barker and the one who seems to be generally referred to as CEH - but I think Cameron and co have missed a trick here.
Instead of all the arm waving and horror over his chap getting his collar felt, he should have just let it run and whenevr it was mentioned just stayed stum and smiled knowingly.
The Govt would not have been able to resist showing their true colours under the misapprehension that Green had been up to something naughty and their failure to get the Tories to take the bait. Ms Smith would no doubt have taken the credit within days for personally initiating the raid in the cause of protecting confidential government information (unless Brown beat her to it), and much Labour gloating would have followed....until the Police came back and said 'Actually our investigations show that absolutely nothing wrong has gone on here, and in fact he was simply doing his job'
At which point Cameron, Clegg et al could have a had a field day.
Wish I'd seen HRH Phil's little jest with Jack Straw - priceless! Bet that won't be shown on BBC News.
And so, back to work.....
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124#
Derek:
Indeed, you have a point; it just appears unfortunate that when the only Labour front bencher who has her finger on the pulse where this subject is concerned (Hazel Blears) mentions the likes of the BNP, the party appears to have collective deafness and completely ignores what she has to say.
Its not just the weak opposition, its also the government's position that isnt helping either. I dont recall the BNP making the electoral advances that they have done in the last 8 years prior to Labour coming into office.
Maybe the rise of the BNP doesnt scare you. I dont mind telling you that it certainly worries me.
You cant just keep blaming everything on the Tories, Del. You have to take responsibility and accountability for your own mistakes as well. This constant flanneling is starting to wear thin. Its also fundamentally dishonest and gives the impression of "wanting to stay in power at any price". We, as an electorate are fed up to the back teeth with it.
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Sad that so many feel the pageant of the opening of Parliament is passed its sell by date.
As our future is beginning to look more and more like being nothing but a tourist attraction what else is there to sell to the tourists but our pageant and history.
How can we show and encourage democracy in the rest of the world if certain politicians are trying to destroy our own.
Once the moaners manage to get off their computers and have a look around them they might see what the rest of us appreciate and want to keep.
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Qatar said Opec would cut output at its meeting on 17 December after not doing so last weekend.
Separately, the oil cartel's head said oil producers needed oil to cost at least $70 to $80 a barrel
Does this mean that Gordon will be repaying the taxpayer for the wasted flight to and from Saudi earlier this year which achieved squat overall and was a complete waste of time and money.
Will he additonally tax himself for the ensueing increase in his carbon footprint.
I have a good way for him to mitigate his footprint. Return to Scotland and never return to darken the doors of the British parliament again
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
@133 Herb
Its Ok he was laughing at my joke on 138 before i posted it.
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The speaker should always be a member of the opposition or other party to reduce charges of pro government bias. All government departments should have an independent audit by private firms of accountants each year so we, the public have honest facts and figures, not information that is spun for the benefit of the ruling party. That includes the fact that illegal immigrants were employed as security guards. This would reduce the effects of political influence on the civil service and police. Information that does not affect national security and does not reveal personal details should be available for public scrutiny. Finally all governments should have 4 years in office and then have to call an election so they cannot be seen to gain electoral advantage through timing. I do surveys, and well over half of people I speak to have little trust in the UK parliament, probably even less trust in the government if that question was asked. This is the most worrying aspect because so many people are apathetic or hostile to parliament and government with good reason, because they feel powerless to change things from the present unaccountable system.
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This was more nonsense policies full of state control measures which will have no effect on the quality of life in this country , from a government which is totally out of it's depth but intent on hanging on to power for as long as it can in the hope that " something will turn up " to save their bacon. They believed the recession would save them, but the great Brown plan has fallen flat; so back to square one. The Queen's speech ,which is intended to cause as little controversy as possible in case the opportunity for an election comes up will be totally overshadowed by the furore over the behaviour of the two incompetents ( the speaker and the home secretary ) involved in the Damien Green affair. As for the acting head of the met. who is politically unbiased, why was he then making what was essentially a political statement ? He is an unelected civil servant and should not be making public statements of this nature.
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I agree, the over-forceful and divisive approach the Tories are favouring has the same look and feel. The psychology of this is orientated towards outward strength and inner fear, and sucking on that teat just pushes things over the edge. This is why I advocate that Labour don't chase that lemming over the cliff but continue to develop a more mature and inclusive approach.
When a party is marginalised, like the BNP, it tends to only damage itself, but where a party like the Conservatives get power they tend to destroy the country. Some folks will trot out the old equivalence argument and say that Labour is no different but they'd be confusing presentation with substance, and throwing integrity to the wind.
People are attracted to leaders (or the illusion of leadership) and talk up consensus (but are attracted to people like themselves), so their own minds confuse themselves and they act out what they sincerely believe to be true without realising that they're rowing in entirely the opposite direction. If they were more humble and had a sense of humour they'd get the irony of this and let go.
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I have just returned from Woolworths with my latest purchase - a Cyrstal Ball. It is already revealing the future. I feel I must share some of its initial predictions:
1. Michael Martin will say "I was not me! I did not leave my pet adder a Paul's house. Nor did I have any knowlege of anything that would put my pesion pot in peril. I am not to blame!"
2. The sareant at arms will say "I'm not taking the blame - for I am a woman and therefore beyond reproach".
3. THe Home Secretary will say "My Civil Servants were trying to catch a criminal. They have suceeded. I am blameless".
4. Peter Mandelson will say "This is a carefully crafted plot to damage the government of my best mate, the blameless Gordon."
All joking aside the Crystal ball surprised me by saying that if I started a new party with David Davis - we'd win by a landslide.
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#151
Alex, get a political view, stop covering the front page of tabloid, try and stretch your blank tory thought for the better of the majority.
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#142 Mr Barker
As I posted the other day, when did it become a pre-requisite in THIS country that we have to disclose our political views to get a job?
If it is your premise that anybody working for a governement ought to belong to that government's political party, or at least adopt their views, how far is that removed from a totalitarian state?
If not, leave it out.
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#144
You seem to be swimming against the tide here. No credible economist thinks that inflation remains a risk, In fact, the opposite appears to be true - everyone says that we are in for a prolonged period of deflation.
I was swimming against the tide when I put my house on the market in Spring 2007 too.
Credible economists? Are there any? Seriously. Where were they all when the Western world was printing cash and the UK chancellor was doubling national debt and house prices were trebling?
Jackasses the lot of them. Like this government.
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#142 derekbarker
The fact still remains that Mr Green has still not broken any laws.
If you want to start going down the road of not mentioning ties - let's start with Lord Mandleson. I could name several other people in Government but really can't be bothered.
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#152 Pot_Kettle
You're probably right. He's probably got the one post prepared, and sends it in randomly without a view to context, or whether it makes any sense.
Just like most Labour MPs' quotes.
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I've commented on Labour's general approach and the BNP before, and Hazel Blear's seems to have run with something very similar.
I agree, Labour have to develop more self-confidence and be more open with accepting mistakes, but the Tories seem to believe they're right about everything and lack a sense of humanity.
Behind the politics and personalities are people, and once you discount mere skill and populism, the important stuff happens in the mind. This is the root of all things so people should look after it more. Zen can help but there are other useful ways.
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POST 157 DEREK BARKER
You NUMPTY i dont VOTE TORY.
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Now we have the Speaker's report, a sadder day for British democracy has never happened.
Firstly, the search and removal of an MP's documents witout the least warrant and on false pretences with the full collusion of the Sergeant at Arms is totally outrageous. That we must wait another 24 hours for the Minister responsible to substantiate the action is beyond the acceptable. This could, moreover, have happened to any MP.
Secondly, the proposal of the Speaker to regulate such acts in the future removes Parliament's prerogatives. His continuation to sit in control of his own actions is a conflict of interest and he should have stood down during the rest of the debate.
Thirdly, the Police conduct will be hard to defend.
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Oh that's all right then, the police lied to the Speaker.
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lets not forget a fundamental trait of wrongdoing,"good deeds are done in the daylight,whereas dubious behavior is always carried out in the shadows"
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Derek Barker
Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!
This Guy just doesnt get anything,such twisted useless views on the outside world.
AMAZING???
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Nick,
I cannot believe what I am hearing on the radio. Can you seriously believe that the police did not have a search warrant, what is this a police state.
I mean does this mean that the police can now raid our homes without a warrant. This is shameful.
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More relevant postings from the master of the obscure and irrelevant I see.
When there is turmoil all around, and you feel in danger of using intemperate language, wipe the snot from your nose and think of the happy days when you had your finger in the honeypot.
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"People are attracted to leaders (or the illusion of leadership) and talk up consensus (but are attracted to people like themselves), so their own minds confuse themselves and they act out what they sincerely believe to be true without realising that they're rowing in entirely the opposite direction. If they were more humble and had a sense of humour they'd get the irony of this and let go."
I take it that paragraph was irony CEH and you realise you described your attraction to Brown completely, and you also realise that you are rowing in completely the wrong direction.
That is some admission Charles . Well done.
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Nick,
who will be responsible for drafting the motion which they will debate. This is a crazy world. There was no justification for the search, this is shocking, with each revelation it gets worse. Where is the Prime Minister?
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The police did not convey that the SoA could have refused entry. Does she not know her job, she should have demanded to see the warrant, every hood on the street knows their rights, but somebody in the House does not. Shocking.
The MPs cannot question the statement, every second it gets worse.
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Charles:
You nearly had me in agreement there and then went and spoiled it.
"Confusing presentation with substance". Oh dear.
"rowing in the opposite direction"?? Come again??
Do you not think that what the nation needs at the moment is an inspirational leader?
Sorry Charles, but its simple. Thanks to the quite brilliant electoral tactician that is Peter Mandelson (odious as he is, it is undeniable, he is a remarkably skilled politician), Labour did what they had to do in the run up to 97 to get elected after 18 years in the wilderness. Stealing the conservatives clothes. Its taken them the best part of 11 years to realise this and only now do they have thier own equivalent back in the shop window wearing 1997 fashions, thinking if we can steal our clothes back, we will return.
I personally say that would be putting presentation above substance and most certainly thowing out integrity as well.
I dont think I can name a single politician with any integrity. Do you not find it alarming, as another poster has put, that the publics faith and trust in politicians has been eroded to the point that it has? Does that not worry you at all?
You too Derek. Forget the partisan approach, what do YOU really think? Or do you really not give a stuff?
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Is the speaker seriously claiming the police lied to him.
If thats the case then Jacqui has to go because her department is in charge of the police.
She allowed the head of the met take the acting job and she is even plannign that he gets the job full time. The buck has to stop with her.
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The committee when it meets should be on the net, with full questioning and answers. This must not be held behind closed doors. I would like some questions answered, who do I put some of my questions to.
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Just how stupid are we?
Are we all as stupid as they think?
The police, who were royally shafted by the Home Secretary on pay last year, have turned up as scapegoats, yet again.
I take back all the accusations of this country being a police state, they're too stupid to run a country. They can't even manage a conspiracy.
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The speaker to his credit seems regretful of what happened. Further to my previous post of many people not trusting parliament, this is encouraged by negative media reporting and possibly lower educational standards and less interest in current affairs amongst certain sections of the population.
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Nick,
this is a question for the government, unbelievable!
I am getting so depressed, there has been a cover-up in Downing Street. They must go, nobody is control, and I do mean nobody.
Give us a general election, this is shameful. Hoon on the TV this afternoon said that the economy is what people should concentrate on, what will they say in May 2009, the election must be delayed because of the state of the economy. This is a dictatorship under a non-elected Prime Minister. Give us the chance to vote.
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I thought the speaker was going to break down. He is such a sensitive gentle soul. Strange - Lord Tonypandy was the best.
The Sergeant at Arms is to blame then and there will be a debate in the House on Monday.
This is something which is quite extraordinary and something about which both Labour and Conservatives are all up in arms about. Seems the Police think they are above the law to search the house without a Warrant.
Oh dear, more heads to roll.
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So, the Speaker wasn't told. I'm afraid that's just making things much worse.
Perhaps he should have asked? or, to quote the old joke, did no-one tell him to use his initiative?
On style - I wonder if "Jacqui" will be quite so humble when she tells all tomorrow? Or will she be reading a Campbell/Mandelson script.
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Damian Green will find that his fingerprints and DNA will now be stored on the police database. This happens to anyone who is 'arrested'. I think it's a quota thing.
Creeping Miniluv, Batman!
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Nick,
I demand that Lord Peter Mandelson come on to the Today programme and apologise for the accusations he was making against the conservatives. He should not have been brought back into government, he must go, again.
He must have known that a warrant had not been issued. Or did nobody tell him.
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I've just seen Speaker Martin in the HoC.
I wouldn't mind betting that the only ones held accountable for this will be the police.
We should know from experience that MPs are usually lawyers and barristers before they are elected. They know how to interpret the law better than anyone.
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157, Draper, congratulations on defecting to the Tories. Welcome aboard.
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House of Commons Speaker Michael Martin has said he was not told that the police did not have a warrant to search the offices of Tory MP Damian Green.
In a statement, he said he would refer the issue of seizure of material to a committee on senior MPs.
Seriously this is a cop out by Martin and he should go now.
Surely his first question as protector of MP's should have been "Do you have a warrant mate?"
Negligence incompetance call it what you will, NOT FIT FOR OFFICE
Former speaker Betty Boothroyd must be spitting feathers she would never have allowed such an abdication of resposibility.
Of course Martin has decided what to say along with Ms Smith and as I said in an earlier post , her department is in charge of policing so she also must go as she is responsible for a police force that thinks its above the law and can search offices in the commons WITHOUT a warrant.
The more that comes out on this the dirtier it looks. With everyone involved trying to slope shoulders
So Acting head of Met should have ensured there was a warrant
Speaker of the house should have ensured there was a warrant
Jacqui Smith should have ensured the Acting head she appointed could manage his service so that they had a warrant.
All 3 should resign
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Martin BUCK passes?
ONCE again no surprise. . . . .
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#149 virtualsilverlady
I agree. I love the pageantry of the opening of parliament and I have set my TV to record it so that I can watch it when I get back home tonight.
I can't wait to see Prince Philip's mime some bloggers are describing.
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Nick, now will you consider the issue of the arrest of an Opposition Minister and the search of his Commons office as the most serious freedom development in recent years.
How can the Speaker carry on his job after admitting he failed to carry out his basic duties.
We know he will carry with the support of this Government and it seems the BBC news coverage.
On with our march to a draconian fascist Government.
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So it is now out. The Police DID NOT HAVE A WARRANT TO SEARCH GREEN'S HoC OFFICE.
That is Stasi type actions.
Civil Servants have to support their Ministers. OK! But does this include any action that IS NOT IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST?
The question must also be asked is whether Civil Servants (like the PS at the Home Office) can institute proceedings that could result in arrest of an MP without authorisation of his Minister?
I doubt whether this Brown Govt will allow the public answering of these two questions
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Well, now we have it.
Parliament is at war with the Police..God help us.
But surely..the question has to be asked why the Sarjeant at Arms,apparently,did not know what the protocol was,and that she had the power to refuse entry?
Beneath all this;given the time frames described by the Speaker i.e... he knew the day before that "an arrest and charging of a Member" may be imminent..I cannot believe for one moment that any Minister was not informed!
This is going to be very bloody indeed.
Regardless of Party politics,heads are going to have to roll .
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Charles:
"behind the skill and populism..."
Yes. I accept that. So isnt it particularly disappointing that neither political colour seems to have the willingness to embrace that? Thats what I'm driving at when I say that it is an inspirational leader that is needed. I may differ with you by beleiving that personality is an important quality for a politician, especially for a President or Prime Minister. For all that the three people I'm about to mention got things wrong in their careers, I beleive that Blair may have had it. Thatcher had it. Churchill had it.
Surely you must have discovered during your career that it isnt possible to acheive a whole pile of anything by committee?
I'm afraid the whole picture seems to have descended into political self preservation. We have to elect MP's to represent and govern us for our benefit, not for their own.
Where is this class of politician going to emerge from? I cannot see it from either the Labour or Conservative benches.
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#152
That's a joke! It's the least funny thing you've posted. I can't even raise a chuckle. Maybe some of your unbiased political insight will set me off again
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NO WARRANT = POLICE STATE
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#170 pot_kettle
I take it that paragraph was irony CEH and you realise you described your attraction to Brown completely, and you also realise that you are rowing in completely the wrong direction.
That is some admission Charles . Well done.
Pot - is that the same as dancing at the wrong end of the ballroom?
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126 jc
Completely agree. It bothers me too that a civil servant can act as prosecutor and judge based on analysis by software. If there are proposals to take people in for formal lie detector tests administered by impartial external experts, then maybe. But I don't think that lie detector tests are 100% foolproof, and I don't see how any external expert, paid by the government could be impartial. Particularly with this government's zeal for imposing targets.
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Derek Barker, Answer the questions
1. What crime has been commited by Green (and if you think there was one, why has was he NOT arrested for a criminal offence?)
2. Should Brown be arrested for doing exactly the same as what Green has done?
3. do you consider that the labour member for Walsall North, David Winnick MP as a tory boy?
I have not seen him so angry over this since Labour ditched Clause 4.
This is a very serious breach of Parliamentary Protocol by the Government, the police and the House of Commons staff according to Honourable and Right Honourable members from all over the political spectrum. After The Speaker's speech, surely there are NO labour apologist's left that believe that this is the sign of any MP attempting to appear above the law, nor is it a "storm in a teacup", but is, in reality, a serious and criminal breach of ALL OF OUR constitutional rights and protections.
Heads MUST roll after the committees have reported and the debates have finished.
This is about the breach of OUR individual rights and the protection offered to each and every one of us by the Parliamentary Privilege that was seriously and criminally undermined by this appalling, malignant and dangerous Government.
Come on labour supporters, answer the above three questions.
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124 derek
"I think the tories on this blog should tread very carefully."
Yes, my lord. Sorry, my lord. Apologies for breathing, my lord.
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Someone has to be accountable.
Wheres Gordon?
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Additionally, it is rich for this grievous breach of the law by Labour members, the police, and Parliamentary staff to suddenly have Labour members suddenly support the "independence of the Civil Service".
Has their blatant politicisation of the Civil Service over the last 11 years come to an end then?
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Thank you Mister Speaker. It didn't go un-noticed that the MP for a part of Islington was the last person called to comment on his statement on what went on last week.
I was chortling with laugher at the apoplexy from all sides at their sacred sanctum being "unwarrantedly" gate crashed by the real world and watched my favourite Mister Davis in his lip pursing behind one Mr D Green.
My rights as a humble constituent were these, all men I note, only concern and Mister Howard - Barrister of this and that Parish - Folkstone and Hythe is it? - shame on you sir!
Yes, Nicholas - fun was had by all - well me at least.
As Corporal Jones - the "Dad's Army" character would have it - "Let me at 'em, Mister Mainwaring - let me at 'em!"
lol
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It is inconceivable that those at the very top of our government knew little of the arrest prior to the Stasi like storming of Parliament.
There is evil at play here by people with a hidden agenda, people who have infiltrated the very core of our administrations country wide and indeed the media. Worse still these people have a firm foothold within the hierarchy of our police forces.
This country desperately needs a new broom to rid us of the European Neo Stalinist's who undermine society on a daily basis and who are responsible for the mess we find ourselves in today.
Hopefully ALL the opposition parties will join together to fight the next election and fully insure our freedom from those who would cause serious harm to our way of life.
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#155
"When a party is marginalised, like the BNP, it tends to only damage itself, but where a party like the Conservatives get power they tend to destroy the country"
The last 11 years have destroyed this country. Which party is in power.
Oh surprise, surprise it is the Labour Party.
The Police are out of control. Searching an MP's Office in the HoC WITHOUT A WARRANT. stated by no less than the Speaher of HoC. What next in this Police state?
Oh surprise, surprise it is the Labour Party in charge.
Do I have to go on and on and on.....?
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Nick
Have you noticed that there are at least four stages in the Government's response whenever anything things go belly up?
1) Gordon Brown disappears. This usually happens at the very first sign of trouble.
2) Stories change by the day. "It was right that I was not told" becomes "It was right that I should be told. They tried to tell me but could not reach me because I was in a meeting."
3) Attempt to turn fire on Tories, with irrelevant and misleading statements. "No-one is above the law". Did anyone claim the opposite?
4) Mandelson is wheeled out - in which case things are really desperate.
Seems like we have all four!
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Michael Martin is the best Speaker I can remember. He is not confrontational, is softly spoken and he does not play to the gallery.
No one will remember his intervention in the Baby P affair, but he was quite right.
To my mind, he is even handed. That will carry no weight when politicians seek political advantage.
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Let me get this straight.
The Speaker did not know the Police did not have a warrant. Did he not think to ask?
The Serjeant at Arms signed a consent form without 1) asking to see a warrant and/or 2) referring to her boss for advice. (Whether or not the Police misled or lied to the Serjeant at Arms is another issue.) Ms Jill Pay probably needs to consider her position. She may have only been in post since January but beforehand she was the Assistant Serjeant at Arms from September 2004. Surely she must have picked up the ?rules of the game? before her promotion?
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So Smith/Brown actually lied when they talked about a warrant then, Nick. Any views on that?
No warrant, yet Martin still let the police storm Parliament.
Why hasn't he been physically turfed out of the building and put in stocks?
It's treason I say.
The Brown/Smith/Martin defence of "I'm completely unaware of anything that ever happens, and nothing is ever my fault" is looking rather stale.
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In all the furore surrounding the Speaker's statement, who is going to look more closely [Nick?] at the actions of the Cabinet Office in the arrest? Who took the decision to call in the police so dramatically on a non-criminal matter? What were his/her motives in doing so?
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What's the first thing your are taught when entering government or government service? Don't ask awkward questions in case you don't like the answers?
The speaker has to consider his position now, and at least have the decency not to stand again if he can't bring himeself to resign.
The Sergeant at Arms has to go, since she is demonstrably incompetent.
The Home Secreatry must bear responsibility for the actions of the police and for the civil servants. An apology won't do, she must resign.
The acting head of Scotland Yard, I'm afraid, can't be considered for the post on a permanent basis I'm afraid, and whichevr officer actually led the raids and purposely misled the authorities must go.
Anybody I've missed? Oh yes, of course, the Prime Minister up to his ears in it yet again. Is he in charge or what?
If yes, he's making a very poor job of it. Maybe he's taken on too much, what with saving the world from economic ruin and all that. Savinbg us from economic ruin would do to be going on with. If no, then what does he do all day, apart from sit in a corner, bite his nails, and sulk?
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"Mr Martin also promised that, in future, a warrant would be required before searches were carried out on Commons property. "
The sanctity of Parliament dictates that even WITH a warrant, the Commons has the right to refuse entry to the police. The Police are NOT above the law either.
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Why the surprise over recent Metropolitan Police action? With failed leadership in recent times how and why would senior officers instinctively know how to act with integrity and professionalism?
I dream of the day when major incompetence is punished by loss of some pension or a custodial sentence for instance.
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TAG - Write to your MP.
So the Government will set up a committee to look into the government's actions.
There appears to be something wrong with that
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The universe is a thing unto itself. All things exist relative to the Tao. Enlightenement is a personal thing, etcetera.
It's really quite simple.
Something is what it is. Until it is not.
See, quite easy.
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I'm sorry, but I still cannot believe that nobody in the cabinet was told of the impending arrest of an MP.
Even if the Serjeant at Arms didn't realise she could refuse entry because there was no Warrant, surely she would have contacted her superior - Speaker Martin, when the police gained entry, who would then have contacted someone else, until it got to the top.
This was handled by the Asst. Commissioner (?) who would have been well aware of the law regarding the arrest of a Member of Parliment. If Boris knew, someone esle must have known too.
This is starting to smack of smears, whitewash, and smoke and mirrors.
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Its a PITY the MONARCHY cant DO some
DEAD HEADING in the GARDEN at the
PALACE.
HEADS SHOULD ROLL INTO A BASKET. .
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#177
Up to a point but what about a crumbling democracy with entrenched and out of touch political parties with vested interests in keeping their snouts firmly in the trough?
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Twenty odd posts waiting modification, I mean moderation, and only a handful from Labour mouthpices, including silly boy got none, although they'd probably prefer him not to post.
I wonder if any lights are going on yet?
I wonder how long before the police start dropping the dirt?
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No106 TA Griffin.
Asks for more on the Duke's reaction. How about this. He had just found out that the bag contained a list of professional welfare scroungers and he was not on the list.
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#178
you do not elect a prime minister you elect a party. You are mixing it up with the Obama situation I think.
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124 derek
"I think the tories on this blog should tread very carefully."
why? In case you send your boys in blue to sort us out without a warrant...??
hahahahahahahha!
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Looks like we are in a police state and even the most basic questions are not asked by those who claim they look after our interests. Who let the dogs out, they let themselves out.
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Ok, so the Speaker should obviously be first to resign as he's confessed that his staff were at fault.
The Serjeant at Arms is obviously gone, but that's simple routine.
There will be questions for the senior police authorising the action, who probably should have known better.
We'll wait to hear whether Minister knew.
-------------------
Reality now. Guess what? Nobody will resign because that's what's become of responsibility in public office now.
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So Michael Martin never even asked for a warrant!
I don't think I've seen such treachery since Tony Blair sold us down the river to secure his multimillion dollar US retirement.
Is it a Scottish thing or what?
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No 178 TA Griffin
I am amazed to think that you do not know that the Prime Minister was elected in the same way as every other Member of Parliament. Could I recommend a GCSE course on the British Constitution. It seems to me that a large proportion of anti- government contributers are rather backward on issues that they are commenting on.
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Can anyone help me please, I asked the other day if anyone had seen my Prime minister because I've mislaid mine for the last week.
I still can't find it anywhere. Has anyone else seen it recently? If so, could they return it because there's a country going down the u-bend here and we could do with some leadership.
AMAZING COMMENT I NEVER THOUGHT I'D SEE ALERT.......
I wish Blair was still in charge.
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#195
Of course, you have researched CEH's professional background, I presume?
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@213 CEH
Yes I could see clearly before the post 213 you were admiting you were attracted to Brown by yur personality type and that you knew you were rowing in the wrong direction.
How about an enlightening u-Turn on your blind love of this government
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So the Sargeant-at-Arms appears not to have known the protocal, nor asked if the police had a warrant? The Speaker himself says he did not know there was no warrant forthcoming. Those foolish people have put at risk the very foundations of our democracy. At the very least, the Sargeant-at-Arms and the Speaker should resign. I say this as an ordinary member of the public belonging to no political party, and with a scepticism of our politicians. This is about more than party politics and any individual politician's worth or calibre. It's something far, far more important than that.
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#197
Pammy, as I have out-lined in previous posts, the conservative party are now in the position of advocating leaks, not only are they promoting civil servants to break their code of conduct and practice, they have created a position of undermining the police-force, which in these difficult times, is
unacceptable.
Pammy, the fact that there was no, warrant, is a failing and I know you brought up the subject on many occasions, again I concede on that point, however, it does not mean that the investigation of consistent leaks by one individual over a long period is right, it's clearly wrong, dangerous and in the long term, dilutes the process of parliament and the police.
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You are now referred to my postings on the previous blog here. The legal texts in question make interesting reviewing, for those of you who wish to follow up this Civil Sevrice neutrality thread.
As does the Conservative Party's film of the search.
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@214 Shelling
Personally i think this is now beginning to smell of unaduterated revenge for the political ground gained by the conservatives by the use of the leaked documents.
Unfortunately for Labour the red mist of revenge is backfiring rapidly and as in all good Bond movies the heat seeking missiles are returning to hit the firer
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#203
The Police are out of control. Searching an MP's Office in the HoC WITHOUT A WARRANT. stated by no less than the Speaher of HoC. What next in this Police state?
Oh surprise, surprise it is the Labour Party in charge.
Do I have to go on and on and on.....?"
You don't have to, you just choose to - sadly
This is what really matters, not the pointless posturing of the self-centred:
"Enshrines in law the government's commitment to eradicate child poverty by 2020"
Child Poverty Bill
(Sorry - you might have to pay something towards this - oh dear)
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My understanding is that traditionally the Sargeant at Arms position has been filled by a retired military office of some rank.
The current holderof the position is I understand a career civil servant rather than a military person. It would perhaps not be unreasonable to suggest that the last Sargeant at Arms would have posed a more robust foe to the Police in their attempts to search the MP's office than the current occupant.
It would appear possible that the current Sargeant at Arms is being lined up as the scapegoat for this affair.
If the position becomes vacant and there is a demand to move to a more traditional holder of the role could I suggest Major Sebastian Morley.
He appears to be eminently qualified and appears also to be well connected.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/3332417/Exclusive-SAS-chief-quits-over-negligence-that-killed-his-troops.html
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I have had a post removed which made the assumption there was an association between Green and Galley and so I have to acknowledge that it cannot be stated that there was an association between Green and Galley. Let us suppose that this is true. Somebody therefore knows that there was not an association between Green and Galley and is sufficiently moved by the contrary view to have a blog posts stating it taken away.
So the top news of the whole of this last week does not really exist. News which the BBC has reported. Where on earth is this all going?
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#231 Pot_Kettle
Personally i think this is now beginning to smell of unaduterated revenge for the political ground gained by the conservatives by the use of the leaked documents.
Unfortunately for Labour the red mist of revenge is backfiring rapidly and as in all good Bond movies the heat seeking missiles are returning to hit the firer
.....oooohh I live in hope...!!
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re 213
"Something is what it is. Until it is not."
I take my hat off to you. I couldn't keep this level of spoofery up for this length of time.
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213#
Charles:
"Something is what it is. Until it is what it is not."
Indeed.
Rightly or wrongly Chas, this is not California c1968.
The subject of the blog is British politics. If only it were ever that spiritual.
Zen, Tao and the like may well be a fine set of values to live life by, I wouldnt know. Not what I was brought up with. That was more along the lines of:
Cheats Never Prosper
Crime Doesnt Pay
Be nice to everyone on the way up
Treat Others As You Would Be Treated Yourself.
Never Eat Yellow Snow.
Politically naive, I know, but those values have stood me in pretty good stead so far.
Cant think of any of our currently serving elected reprasentatives who could honestly subscribe to any of those tenets though.
The all pervading motto appears to be "Whats In It For Me?". Maybe that should be on a coat of arms above the door of the Palace Of Westminster.
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Bingo!!! "We will have to wait for the outcome of the enquiry"
Mr Brown CANNOT even state if he, personally, regrets that the police raided the offices of an MP. GUTLESS COP OUT!
Nor, can he state if he believes that it is acceptable for an MP to be arrested for the SAME thing that he did MANY times!!!
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"Lapland park guard quits in shame
A security guard at a Lapland-style theme park criticised by visitors as "hell" and a "scam" said he resigned because he was "ashamed to work there".
Can I suggest that the goings on in the commons over the same time period have been no better and further to that, the Speaker sergeant at arms, the Home secretary and the acting head of the Met should all be doing the same as the above mentioned guard
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213#
Charles:
"Something is what it is. Until it is what it is not."
Indeed. Rightly or wrongly Chas, this is not California c1968.
The subject of the blog is British politics. If only it were ever that spiritual.
Zen, Tao and the like may well be a fine set of values to live life by, I wouldnt know. Not what I was brought up with. That was more along the lines of:
Cheats Never Prosper
Crime Doesnt Pay
Be nice to everyone on the way up
Treat Others As You Would Be Treated Yourself.
Never Eat Yellow Snow.
Politically naive, I know, but those values have stood me in pretty good stead so far.
Cant think of any of our currently serving elected reprasentatives who could honestly subscribe to any of those tenets though.
The all pervading motto appears to be "Whats In It For Me?". Maybe that should be on a coat of arms above the door of the Palace Of Westminster.
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#229 derekbarker
You should give yourself a rest, Derek, and have a lie down.
All this paranoia isn't good for you.
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Brown is at this moment refusing to acknowledge regret that the Police entered the House without a warrant.This..even after The Speaker has expressed such regret.
...and ..is it true that he said previously they had warrants?
If so..he is beyond belief.
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".qUITE HONESTLY THE WORD ON THE STREET IS WHAT A BUNCH OF LOONIES/"
I can quite believe that. Perhaps people might be interested when I'm a Celebrity has finished?
If you can't see why its important, you don't deserve to live in a free country.
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#28 "Lord Mandelson highlights many of the legitimate concerns people have expressed..."
Hahaha that's a good one.
Name me one time the twice-disgraced, BBC-investigation-immune unelected cabinet minister highlighted the legitimate concerns of anyone outside his little clique?
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So a 6 month delay in home reposessions? that's a May 1st election then.
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I can see what you're pulling, here, but that's just comment - throwing a rock into the night and hoping you smash a window.
You missed.
If anything, Brown and Labour have moved closer to my position. The Tories will too if they have any sense.
Ho, hum.
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They didn't even have any paperwork????
I thought he had said that the DPP had confirmed it was ok??
Did he not think to ask did they have a warrant? Or if this was acceptable? Or if the paperwork was in place?
Very very worrying and poor response from the Speaker.
Get to Nick, I smell blood!
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So Smith didn't know anything and the Speaker didn't know there wasn't a warrant and Brown was sorting out the World's economic problems and Mandelson is in full smear (allegedly) mode.
There is a crude business saying when things go wrong and all the senior execs have run for cover.
It involves something we are all familiar with rolling downhill (presumably when it's not in the fan!).
Accountability is dead - long live accountability
I'm so proud to be British. It could be worse - Burma, North Korea and um ...?
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#101 GBH
another quote for you:
'A weak currency is a sign of a weak economy' - Gordon Brown.]
Of course a weak currency helps exports but unfiortaunately the UK private sector grew slower under newlabour than it did under the tories as Gordon Brown created hundreds of thousands of public sector jobs.
This time around the difference is that Gordon Brown grew government spending faster than GDP for eleven years in a row and eventually you go bust on this ridiculous model.
'This is a boom built on credit' another Gordon Brown fave... and perfectly desribing the fantasy growht he craved.
Call an election; newlabour have run out of money and they know it. The rumblings about Euro memebership are because withut it we will soon be going to the IMF.
You really think Mandelson has fooled anyone? The whole country is now trained to believe the exact opposite of everything he says.
newlabour can run but they have nowhere to hide. Welcome to the newlabour debtors prison.
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By staying silent over the Green affair, Gordon shows himself to be as culpable as the rest of them.
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130 and 144.
On the deflation / inflation conundrum, what we're experiencing now is deflation for sure.
We might get the kind of inflation 130 suggests at some point, but only if the developed world were to print really large amounts of money. What has been done so far is quite modest.
The first country to print money, if necessary, would undoubtedly be the US. A couple of $5trn. notes would do nicely.
What this has to do with the indiscretions of UK politicians is hard to fathom. If the US prints dollars, we get the inflation anyway, so we'll have to print a proportionate amount of pounds. It really is out of GB's hands.
This will only be necessary if things get so bad that the US cannot borrow at reasonable rates via T Bond issues. Given that a large chunk of US debt is to China, it remains to be seen how the regime there would react to the prospect of such money printing by the US.
It puts the Damian Green situation into perspective.
The UK is currently facing several crises at once, all the while aware that all western countries, especially the UK and US, and some eastern ones, are the targets of a group of ruthless murderers, who would inflict mass casualties upon us if they could.
Passing and receiving the government's secrets for 2 years may sound like a jolly wheeze, but now probably isn't the time for such japes.
Did it not occur to DG at any point ovr the past 2 years that his behaviour was anything less than ideal for an MP?
Did Green not wonder what other secrets Galley might have had access to, and to whom else he might have passed the information?
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#178
"you do not elect a prime minister you elect a party. "
Actually, no you don't - the only person I am able to elect (or contribute to electing) is a Member of Parliament for the constituency I live in.
Even the members of the Labour Party only have 1/3 of the votes when they elect a leader, througfh their constituency party(1/3 TUs etc., 1/3 MPs and MEPs). And they didn't get a vote on McCavity Brown, as he was elected unopposed. The Conservative Party leader is chosen only by its MPs.
As I have said on a number of occasions on this and other forums, our elective "democracy" means that a party with the active support of only a quarter of the UK adult population and 36% of those who actually voted has a large majority and is effectively able to do what it wants or most legislation, unless they try to do something so crass like 42 days that even their own side can't stomach it.
This is why I consistently pray for a hung Parliament at the next election, followed by electoral reform meaning that the government at least represents the majority of those voting....
I'm not holding my breath, however.
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Jacqui Smith Sunday
"But Home Secretary Jacqui Smith defended the right of police to arrest Mr Green, dismissing suggestions from MPs of all sides that he was being pursued just for doing his job.
She insisted that officers were investigating a "systematic series of leaks" and it would be wrong for politicians to intervene.
Ms Smith told BBC One's Andrew Marr programme: "There have been a lot of charges thrown around here - the idea that, you know, this is Stalinism, this is a police state.
"In my book, Stalinism and a police state happens when ministers direct and interfere with specific investigations that the police are carrying out.
'Not good enough'
"I have been very clear that in my view the police should have operational independence, they should be able to pursue those investigations in the way in which their professional judgment suggests.
By what is said here in the last sentance Jackboots thinks that it is OK for the police to search the house of Commons WITHOUT a warrant because it is their professional judgement. That alone should be enough for her to resign
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232 Laughatthetories
Unusual for you to state an opinion of some form.
I can now see why you don't normally bother.
"Enshrines in law the government's commitment to eradicate child poverty by 2020"
Maybe you hadn't noticed - but Gordon Brown has wrecked the economy.
Watch the numbers of children in poverty rise and rise.
Targets enshrined by law - we all know how Labour meet targets. They fiddle the statistics or change the rules. The electorate would not be blamed if they didn't trust the government in the slightest on this.
Fortunately - Gordon seems to have done his level best to ensure that Labour are destroyed as an electable body for at least a generation (maybe longer).
If the target is met by 2020 - then it won't be Labour that will have done it. You'll be able to laugh with the Tories as you will no doubt be so pleased that the promise was delivered on by a Conservative government.
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post 229 derekbarker
BACK on PAMMY bashing again ITs SO
borING.
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Gordy & the GANG
The response to this it getting like the response to the collapse of the ECONOMY
ITS ALL SOMEONE ELSES FAULT
WE DIDNT KNOW
WE DIDNT HEAR or SEE .
THE EXCUSES AMOUNT TO ONE THING.
LEAVE OFFICE!!!
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Tuesday Home Secretary Jacqui Smith has accused the Tories of "irresponsible and cavalier" behaviour over the leak row.
And how is that different from her "irresponsible and cavalier" behaviour that allowed the police for whom she is responsible to search the commons without a warrant
Fall on your Jackboots Jacqui, you are not fit for the responsible office of Home secretary
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As I said people hours ago on Nick's comment on this blog about Gordon Brown having a rabbit in the hat. There you have it below.
The Government will allow struggling homeowners to defer part of their mortgage payments for up to two years.
Oh deary me.
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I've been trawling the Beeb website for a quote from the PM on this fiasco.
You know what, I can't find any, not one.
Is this because the Beeb have been asked to stop quoting him because he doesnt like it being thrown back in his face a la "No more boom and bust"
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post 232
LAUGH AT THE TORIES.
Ending child POVERTY??
Of course child poverty should be ended
TAX CREDITS have probably caused more
long term poverty than any other policy.
CHILD BENEFIT SHOULD BE HIGHER
Personally i would be prepared to pay more
Tax to see that happen.
THE PROBLEM IS WHAT IS POVERTY IS IT
FISCAL OR BEHAVIOUR/OUTLOOK?
Theres nothing funny about NEW LABOUR.
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"Rather than seek to dismiss the offence the police are investigating, you would do better to show respect for the law and duty of parliamentarians to uphold the law," she said."
Another quote from Ms Smith
Will she know admit the Police for whom she is responsible show respect for the law and duty of parliamentarians to uphold the law and as a consequence of the police searching without warrant will she now please resign
p.s Mr cameron feel free to use any or all of my recent posts when questioning Jacqui tomorrow
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Indeed, let's also throw out other baggage like engineering, geology, history, art, science, and logic. Doesn't leave a lot does it? I feel a huge desire to write a massive essay on "What is politics?" but I'm too lazy and nobody would read it. I'll just say that I'm throwing a perspective into the pot.
Most things are useless until you need them, then people sieze on like a drowning man to a liferaft. There's some lack of interest in the speech itself and a lot of posturing from vested interests trying to win favour through duplicitous means but that's just more flim-flam.
The brightest light casts the darkest shadow.
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@246
even if they are getiing closer to your position wouldnt that mean that you were rowing in the wrong direction, you are like the broken clock, only right twice a day and for the other 23 hours and 58 minutes nowhere near the truth
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Let me get this straight?. A civil servant who is paid by the tax payer, has (allegedly) not been working for public to earn his pay, he has actually been working (allegedly) for the Conservative Party and by default neglecting his role. And the Tories think this is OK. Shame on them.
Furthermore are the Tories actually suggesting that any MP who commits a crime should be immune from investigation, I sincerely hope not.
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#258 GoonerNo9
The Government will allow struggling homeowners to defer part of their mortgage payments for up to two years.
This infers that the struggling homeowners will have to pay the money back at some point, then?
Ditto - Oh dear.
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259 Pot_Kettle
"I've been trawling the Beeb website for a quote from the PM on this fiasco.
You know what, I can't find any, not one.
Is this because the Beeb have been asked to stop quoting him because he doesnt like it being thrown back in his face a la "No more boom and bust""
I can't remember the last time that Gordon Brown said anything meaningful about anything, he just trots out generic rubbish which doesn't mean anything.
"Getting on with the job. Serious times. Hard Working Families. I wasn't there. It wasn't me. It was the American's fault. I don't know anything. We're doing everything we can. The world loves me. I am your saviour. God Bless the BBC. You're the do-nothing party. It's all Thatcher's fault."
Can anyone here remember anything useful he's said?
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Come on Nick. Let's hear about Martin's speech making everyone else a scape-goat
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#262 CEH
The brightest light casts the darkest shadow.
...Err that'll be Lord Mandleson, then.
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Brown unveils mortgage help plan
I for one cant wait to see the devil in the detail on this one.
I'll wager that most people that have trouble making thier mortgage payments wont be eligible.
For a start off it only covers people that are made redundant. So no good then if you had a pay rise below inflation and start to stuggle because of the fuel bills that are 40% higher than last year.
The detail is here "Mr Brown told MPs: "Hardworking households that experience a redundancy or significant loss of income as a result of the downturn will be able to defer a proportion of their interest payments for up to two years while they get their family finances back on track.
Surely households are no longer "hardworking" by definition if they are made redundant.
Hardworking householders that KEEP their jobs will be expected to pick up the tab in their taxes giving them less to pay their mortgage with.
Another bad thought out knee jerk policy that wont deal with the ACTUAL problem
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Funny how the Speaker significantly says the Police didn't have a warrant, a disclosure that most people dropped their jaw when hearing, yet the BBC lead with headline of; 'Speaker regrets.'
We do we have to keep pointing out the biased reporting on the BBC?
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The Tories have tried to frame Labour as authoritarian while appealing to the gallery, and the Green affair is just another play on that.
You're trying to lay on a tighter and tighter perspective but those are your words not mine. I'd give up. You'll only strangle yourself into nothing.
There's a lot of grandstanding and populism in here but I've, mostly, ignored it so "THE RAGE" ends up painting itself into a corner.
A gift declined is a gift for who?
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This Damien Green stuff is little more than the trivial back story and a prior run by the scuffers for the 'civil' servant who has been leaking the Treasury papers for some time now.Go get him, plod!
The Bullingdon Boys just want to deflect public attention from the way the PM and Chancellor have shot their fox.
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@ 261 Pot_Kettle
p.s Mr cameron feel free to use any or all of my recent posts when questioning Jacqui tomorrow
Do you really mean that he should question her on where she keeps the rabbit? :-)
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Incedentaly, Why is Brown announcing a plan which is financial in nature, shouldnt this be the treasuries responsibility.
Shouldnt this have been in the PBR last week,
After all it is in effect, a government mortgage insurance scheme which will work by the Treasury underwriting the extra risk that banks take.
So its coming out of the government budget
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Some of your correspondents have mentioned Lord Mandy on the Today programme. I usually listen to this on the way to work but when the emollient tones began I switched it off.One of the breathtaking outrages that this government of pious posturers has visited upon us has been the return of discredited chancers like the 'noble' lord.
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"Targets enshrined by law - we all know how Labour meet targets. They fiddle the statistics or change the rules. The electorate would not be blamed if they didn't trust the government in the slightest on this."
------------------------------------------
Yup, Labour will probably re-define 'child in poverty' to mean any child that is without a home, clothes or food for 75 consecutive days and is still alive.
The news in 2020: The last child officially heading for poverty, Little Johnny, finally starved to death today, hey presto, The Brown labour Government officially ended child poverty today on time. In other news, Gordon Brown extended the state of emergency called under the auspices of the Civil Contingencies Act back in April 2010 for another 12 months and said that oposition parties may be allowed after then and an election may follow that. This is the 8th successive year that the dear leader has done this, but it is for all our good. All Hail Brown!
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BINGO!!!
Folk who lose their jobs will be able to defer their mortgage payments for up to two years.
This willhave two effects
1)
defer the repossession figures until you're kicked out of the frame by the electorate. Then twenty years from now Labour apologists will again be quoting terrible repossession figures for the Tory administration of 2010 - 2028. Blind to any protest that it was nailed on by the previous incompetent Labour administration. Rather like the figures they dig up from the 1980's today.
and 2)
give the inflation a chance to really take hold and start inflating away all your debts.
Told you.
Rampant inflation starting end of next year. (2009).
Nailed on.
Don't listen to what they say. Watch what they do.
You see that burning economy? That's the UK's that is.
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Why should we take the word of any member of this government on the matter?
The (and their) story changes by the day.
The very fact the police didn't seem to see the need to obtain a warrant before they invaded the House, makes it all the more likely that they'd already had the nod from on high permitting the HoC raid. Who's nod was that?
I think we can all guess.
I don't believe Speaker Martin's 'regret' either - something Gordon Brown so obviously doesn't share - as it wasn't followed by his resignation announcement. What a disgrace to both their high office they are!
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So now I'm a number not a name. A taste of things to come perhaps. Well, it's been an interesting experience for the last 2 days and I would like to wish all of you well. Personally
I am going to resume the task of trying to ensure that I avoid my own personal Utica and live out my days under skies less grey, or at least where the dreary trundle towards tyranny is considerably slower. Bona Fortuna!
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I'm hard pressed to see how this demands an emergency debate that overshadows the Queen's speech unless there's an element of grandstanding or vanity behind it.
I suppose, some of the more out of touch raging egos in parliament would find it appealing. Before MP's try to lord it over people or paint themselves as the "force of change" they should get a grip on themselves first.
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#264 boohoousa
Please read some newspapers and get up to speed before posting such rubbish.
It sound's like Mandy's spun you a treat.
Fear not the Tories have not said any thing of the sort that you allude to.
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Some quite extraordinary relevations:
1. The police did not have a warrant, so the search may not even have been legally conducted. Those responsible should be dismissed for gross incompetence. I imagine the Home Secretary is looking into this as a matter of urgency.
2. The Serjeant at Arms did not ask for a warrant when the police arrived, which is pretty basic stuff even I know. She should resign or be dismissed as she is clearly incompetent.
3. The Speaker knew that an MP's office was to be searched a day or at least several hours in advance but did NOTHING. He didn't make any enquiries as to what the appropriate precedent was, what the legal position was, etc. Yet his job was to protect MPs and the House of Commons interests. Now he tearfully regrets doing nothing and passes the blame on to his subordinate. What a coward. Sorry, but he should have the grace to resign immediately. And, btw, he was responsible for appointing the Serjeant at Arms last year: clearly an irresponsible appointment.
4. The PM could not even bring himself to express his regret that correct police procedure had not been followed. I should have thought that doing so prejudiThced nothing: in fact, as head of government, he's responsible ultimately that they do follow procedure correctly. It beggars belief.
This whole affair stinks of incompetence by the police, the Speaker and the Serjeant at Arms. And our PM can't even bring himself to condemn it. No doubt the Home Secretary will support the police involved.
You couldn't make it up . . .
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While we're on the subject of police reliability...after the coroner decided an open verdict was the toughest possible.
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Why not go the whole hog? I started thinking along the lines of the cops breaking and entering, becoming guilty of theft, and misrepresentation, now I end up somewhere in close proximity to treason felony.
Can someone else start double-checking the exact book being thrown at the diffferent participants?
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bluntjeremy
Who do you think told the police they could enter Mr Green's parliamentary offices without a Warrant?
The very senior officer dealing with this would have known that without a Warrant, this would be an illegal entry. This is really basic law.
Something's very fishy here.
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273 Giannir / Pot_Kettle
A little Westminster bird tells me that the place Jacqui keeps the rabbit, was the original inspiration for the Titan Jail.
Unlike most prisoners - it was held fully charged - although not for 42 days. That would be ridiculous.
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# 264 boohoousa
"....has (allegedly) not been working for public to earn his pay, he has actually been working (allegedly) for the Conservative Party and by default neglecting his role."
The point is, it's this deceitful government which tries to cover things up who are "not working for the public" to earn their pay.
If the government were honest to begin with, an employee would not be put in the very difficult position of having to decide whether to be loyal to his boss or to his conscience.
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many posters to the blogs do not seem to fully comprehend the legacy of bitterness felt by many citizens at the events leading up to and following the death of David Kelly, not least in the 'enquiry evidence presented by one contradictory witness after another and that is why the atmosphere was so fraught today when the word 'enquiry' was mentioned.
Perhaps a reader who has followed the truth trail of that event might care to remind us what the state of play is with the Coroner's hearing as of today. We note that the present Prime Minister has, to my knowledge, never been asked what he knew even though as Chancellor he was the one with the abacus at the time and therefore the person responsible for deciding if our country could afford an adventure in Iraq.
MPs will, I'm sure also be interested in the fact that taxpayers have recently spent a large amount of money on another Thames Valley police investigation, the Kearney-Murer trial. The many decent police officers who are trying to do an honest fair and diligent job each day, do not want to work against such a backdrop of public mistsrust.
Based on what what the Speaker told us today in his best attempt at good English, (certainly as good an attempt as we have heard since Sir Alf Ramsey was our football manager), it will be interesting in the coming days to see if the officers from The Metropolitan police are indeed brought to the House.
Also, as to how The London Mayor (looking pretty unamused as he listened to the Met man's explanation) considers his role in the appointment of a successor to Sir Ian Blair whose time in office has caused as much debate as many can recall within our police service. Maybe an open police vote throughout the country on who should get this job followed by a Parliamentary confirmation hearing might not be a bad idea.
There is much at stake around each of these subjects and anyone who discusses this in purely party political terms needs to show a far broader understanding, not least because as we heard today, members like Michael Howard, David Winnock and Ian MacShane do not often agree with one another.
Today we saw the Commons at its most highly charged. Hopefully the BBC newscasts will represent this as it was and not try to pour balm over their coverage, something that has been all too common these past eleven years and which has contributed to our democracy oozing away in front of our very eyes.
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209. At 3:25pm on 03 Dec 2008, herb_igone_ex_tuga
A pretty good summary but you did leave out one important point. This was a scam of Orwellian proportions which turned belly up, fell flat as a pancake, etc and has all the hall marks of the twice thrown-out cabinet member, the Lord Mandelson. A third resignation would surely seal his fate but Brown is so lost for good ideas on anything that for the present he will stay with all his dirty tricks.
I also note that the BBC HYS is very quick to "reject" after keeping them under wraps with the trick of "awaiting moderation". Having listened to the BBC from WW2, I no longer have any confidence in their impartial reporting. Just like the Govt. I am afraid
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Any word on Mandelson yet Nick?
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The BBC keep reporting the government spin on this with leading on the fact that the Police did not have a warrant. They dont need one if they get consent. This was given by the sgt at Arms after consultation with Mick Martin.
Either should have refused and demanded a warrant which the Police would then have attempted to obtain. The fact that neither did shows their utter incompetence.
Mick is trying to shift the blame onto his Sgt at Arms by saying he was not told they didnt have a warrant. For goodness sake did he not think to ask ?????
Also this tosh being put about that the Police have "A duty to explain what consent means " . How hapless are they if they dont understand this concept and anyway what was written on the form which she read one would hope before signing? I would hazzard a guess that it would contain everything an idiot would need to know about consensual searches.
The plain fact is this pair were foaming at the mouth at the thought of an opposition MP's office being turned over by the old Bill and were only to happy to oblige. Its all went pear shaped now of course which is typical of everything this government under Brown does now days.
BBC get yourself some decent journalists onto this.
ps Ive stopped listening to the Today programe as I can no longer stand the emasculated sychpathy of Naughtie and co the so called interview of Mandleson today was a disgraceful piece of complient propoganda.
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Nick, just a suggestion for next year. When the BBC and Mandelson work out a presentation format for the Queen's speech you might try something a bit more punchy and racy: Dallas!
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Did I not see the Acting Commissioner next to Boris Johnson explaining how the Police had done everything by the book.
If one can believe the Speaker of the HoC (and I hope I can despite his political affiliations) then the police DID NOT DO IT BY THE BOOK.
Is it not incredible that the Acting Head of the Met does not know the law. This does not augur well should he be confirmed in his acting appointment but surely any one on the police side involved with this will not be promoted? But then Mandy is back weaving his spin and sleaze so it could well happen.
Can anyone really have confidence in the Police or the Home Secretary or indeed the Govt. after this? I do not see who any sane, intelligent person could but....................
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So this was the story cooked up at Harriet's 'secret' cabal meeting yesterday...
If they are to be believed, it would imply that everyone party to the affair (apart from it's targets) either had minimum knowledge of the law of the land, or demonstrated maximum dereliction of their duties. Which is it?
As for the 'national security' aspect, we are asked to believe that our Parliament is so insecure that a few plain-clothes blokes can turn up with nothing more than (possibly fake) IDs and be waved through? Obviously so, that illegal immigrant HoC cleaner managed it for 6 months - so no change there then. Puh-leease!
Nope. It just won't wash.
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Can't pick and choose when to support the independence of the police.
As for the conduct of the police. That can be investigated and sorted.
And it was thought we were heading into a fascist dictatorship?
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Reading through these comments one despairs at the ignorance in general on display over Police powers here are some facts
Fact 1. A search is not illegal if it takes place without a warrant provided CONSENT from an appropriate person is provided.
Fact 2. The issue here is therefore not whether the Police had a warrant which they clearly didnt but rather was the Sgt in Arms an appropriate person to give such consent, The Met think she is , they may be right on this one as well though that remains to be seen.
Fact3 If the sgt at arms and the speaker dont understand the implications of a document which they have signed they are NOT FIT FOR OFFICE and should resign immediately.
Fact4 The Police should have been refused a search without a warrant. They would then have made application and its granting would have been down to the CPS and Courts. I suspect it would have been refused but that is not the point( see above )
You wont find this being reported on the BBC as they are still harping on about the lack of a warrant which is a government smokescreen to conceal the utter utter incompetence of Speaker Martin.
Finally one back bencher has called for the Police to be brought to the house to account, are they sure they really want this ??
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Just watched Nick's comments on the 6 o'clock news. Everyone apparently has questions to answer: the police, the Speaker, the Government, and, of course, the Tories.
But fascinating that rather than highlight the PM's steadfast refusal to "regret the arrest" of DG - unlike the Speaker himself, Harriet Harman, and plenty of others - he just chose to focus on the supposed question the Tories "need to answer". That is, whether it is acceptable to use leaked information.
No, Nick, if anyone has to answer that question it is the man who made his career out doing exactly that - one G Brown. But perhaps that is not in the nuLabour script!
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Watching the commons' points of order on the speakers statement, it was refreshing to see reasoned, intelligent debate on the issues of the rule of law, Parliamentary code, the Civil Service neutrality and others.
In stark contrast, quite frankly, to the ranting and raving I see on here from my fellow members of the public.
Perhaps we should reflect on that, and the reasons why they are elected Members and not us, before we so quickly criticise and promote our own superiority.
Now if you'll excuse me, some of us don't have time to sit on the bbc website writing comments all day, we have work to do.
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Finally after 4 days of waiting:
It wasnae me.
Order.
It wasnae me.
Order, order.
It wasnae me.
If you did not know the speaker was NuLabour you could easily guess by his excuses, it wasnae me, it was somebody else!
Yeah same old, same old.
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10 Almiles
Well, since the Speaker has himself ridden roughshod over 400 years of Parliamentary practice (not to mention the precedent of a member of the governing party being installed as Speaker in the first place), this would be poetic justice, would it not?
--
Actually that precedent was only created in 1992 (when BB was selected from the opposition) - according to the actual convention the speaker should be selected from whichever party is in government at the time
i'm not defending him, i'm just getting slightly fed up of people trying to make it appear even worse with these falsehoods
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#292 CEH
Nick, just a suggestion for next year. When the BBC and Mandelson work out a presentation format for the Queen's speech you might try something a bit more punchy and racy: Dallas!
I'm hoping and praying that this Government (and Mandleson) won't be around to work this out next year.
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229. At 3:58pm on 03 Dec 2008, derekbarker
Oh dear, it seems that you have to be reminded that your ?Leader? Brown was the arch leaker in 1996/1997 parliament. He no doubt suborned civil servants to provide him with the information to leak. Now of course Civil Servants ?must remain politically impartial and retain the "confidence of Ministers" (Sir Gus O'Donnell and demanded by Labour Mps on Points of order after the Speaker's statement). How times change. I had to point out that ?Son of the Manse? that the second great commandment, to paraphrase ?do unto others as you would have them do unto you? NOT as you and others appear to think ?do unto others as you would haTe them do unto you?
I usually sign my self as M. Cawdery but I am having difficulty in changing the pseudonym on BBC.
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#251 That really is so pathetic.
Fact: There's nobody in the Middle East looking to harm us who have done so but for the stupid wars we go along with.
Fact: US inflation does not cause UK inflation. Where on Earth did you get that gem from?
Fact: We need scrutiny on the government as much if not more than ever. Lame comments like yours serve only to toady to authoritarians and promote their arrogance.
You are so earnest in your desire to subordinate yourself to this government who I assume you think knows best, but leave the rest of us out of it would you.
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#281
Frothy and meaningless, just as you intended.
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# 292 Charles_E_Hardwidge
Your link to Dallas was certainly a 'nostalgic reminder'.
But unlike Bobby, we can't step out of the shower and find it was all just a bad dream.
(Younger readers; ask your mums and dads)
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#299
ROFLMAO!
Summed it up perfectly. That and the laughing fool sat between the sober faces of Jaquiboots and Cap'n Darling who seems to think that MPs getting arrested is hilarious.
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272. At 5:07pm on 03 Dec 2008, jthredland
Unfortunately it seems necessary to repeat myself.
It seems that you have to be reminded that your ?Leader? Brown was the arch leaker in 1996/1997 parliament. He no doubt suborned civil servants to provide him with the information to leak. Now of course Civil Servants ?must remain politically impartial and retain the "confidence of Ministers" (Sir Gus O'Donnell and demanded by Labour Mps on Points of order after the Speaker's statement). How times change. I had to point out that ?Son of the Manse? that the second great commandment, to paraphrase ?do unto others as you would have them do unto you? NOT as you and others appear to think ?do unto others as you would haTe them do unto you?
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Seems to to be a reduction in the number of censored posts today - so far only 12 out of 280.
In other news I'm pleased to have officially joined those same ranks having now received the "Your BBC posting has been removed" email (re CEH).
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#232 Laughatthetories
Ha Ha Ha
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#232
"Enshrines in law the government's commitment to eradicate child poverty by 2020"
-----------------
How's that been abolished? By decree?? Or is it another 10-100 year plan, like Prescotts Transport "committment"?
And this sap has swallowed it! Poor dear.
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#130 -
interesting comment, where does the housing market go?
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308
Now dear friend as we discuss Damian Green I would also advise that you take a risk in making reference to CEH.
The effect is a bit like Paul Daniels. Assuming you have managed to read this post -----watch it disappear!
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With reference to my 234 I hope I can reiterate, without swift 'referral', the point that in the event of Mr Galley's being deemed to have committed an offence of any seriousness, any assocation of that person with Damian Green cannot be regarded as trivial. I have twice beeen 'referred' and withdrawn for attempting to make this point the core point of a post.
Over to you, Ministry of Truth.
Fellow posters, read quickly.
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312. Re 318
And actually , watch 313. It suggests that Damian Green could possiblyy have a case to answer.
How much more asymptotic can an approach to the topic get for goodness sake, in the attempt to avoid, as threatened in the referral emails, being chucked off the blog altogether?
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314, post away. Unlike some here and in the government I'm all for your freedom of expression.
I just can't believe how many people seem to want to construct an offence around Green, as if being a conduit for leaks is new. Are you seriously re-examining the validity of an MP leaking information? Really? Or are you just grasping at straws to defend this absurd action?
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I got removed the other day also. I rewrote it with what I thought might have been the "criminal" bit removed and it got removed again.
I wrote to the mod asking which bit was getting it removed so I could rewrite. Still waiting for a reply.
I think it might have been the bit where I asked where Martin Bell was these days, with his white suit, ready to defend freedom and fight corrution wherever it lay on Tory benches.
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311.
If 130 is right, it's the bread market we need to worry about.
303.
Who said anything about people from the Middle East?
The uncomfortable truth is that there are a good number of people in the world, some of whom are UK citizens / residents, who would very much like to blow a good number of us up. You don't believe me, fine.
You don't think US inflation can cause UK inflation? Fine, you carry on believing that. But if a loaf costs a hundred bucks over there 'cos the dollar's worth jack, you'll find it won't be 2 for 2 quid at Tesco's any more!
So, you think my comments are 'lame', ouch.
Schoolboy pointscoring by MPs is pretty lame. I'd prefer our secrets to be kept secret, unless they really do need to be disclosed in the public interest.
If Galley had thought that this would stand up to scrutiny, he could have made a full public disclosure, with no comeback, without passing them on to Green for party political gain.
The fact is that by their own admission Galley and Green had been doing this for 2 years.
Yet nothing of any particular public interest has been disclosed. Their breach of security is a much bigger issue, whether you think there's any need to protect our secrets or not.
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#317
For a guy who seems so worried about security;
"The uncomfortable truth is that there are a good number of people in the world, some of whom are UK citizens / residents, who would very much like to blow a good number of us up"
you seem remarkably ungrateful for the revelations from Green that the Government was employing thousands of illegals in security positions;
"nothing of any particular public interest has been disclosed"
Another who seems to be so in awe of the government that when their failures are dragged out into the light you'd still "prefer our secrets to be kept secret".
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315
You would have to have experienced the full saga of my posts, referrals and removals to appreciate the gist of the post you respond to. Which is of course not your fault and I welcome your comment.
No, it is not grasping at straws, but I refer to about 48 hours of frustration in getting any robust opinion past the official and unoffcial censors that roam this blog. You may not agree with my opinions but I doubt that you would want them removed for that. But as you rightly say, some do.
So:
Firstly, with respect, an MP did not in this case leak information. A civil servant leaked information in circumstances that may have been illegal and an MP is alleged to have either induced that person to do so and / or to have received such information in the expectation of political advantage. If the civil servant committed an offence in law by his part in the affair, it may not be a trivial matter if an MP was associated with him in the matter alleged.
I do not think that Daniel Finkelstein's cut-n-paste 'article' , listing past leaks, in today's Times quite cuts the mustard. He implies, and I gather you might agree: 'leaks happen, so what?'. Again with the greatest respect, this particular case remains to be judged. The Guardian is right to suggest that the fuss about the police action, rather nobly borne this afternoon on his own head - and rightly - by Mr Speaker, is in political terms Tory smokescreen. One cannot exclude the possibility that Mr Green, and not perhaps excluding others in his party has, in terms I have employed in earlier posts, a case to answer.
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#271 Charles
THE RAGE is catchy - but people might think we are one and the same, or that there's some conspiracy going on.
I can't remember where I heard the phrase - I think it was in a Red Dwarf book.
Found it.
the Rage is the ultimate expression of the anger of millions of people at the injustice of their condition ? and it?s infectious, filling all who come into contact with it with pure, murderous rage.
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#319
You repeat half-allegations and might-bes. The reality is that this government employed thousands of illegals in positions of sensitivity then conspired to hide that from us, the people who they purport to serve.
Frankly, I wouldn't care if that information had been uncovered by a daring raid on the offices; I'd be grateful nonetheless. That it was revealed by traditional methods used by politicians of all parties for decades makes it simply more worthy. Whistleblowing has a long history and is a valuable check on the Executive; long may MPs of all parties continue to do it.
The sad thing is that the real story here is lost in the chaff; that our idiot political "masters" can't run a p**s up in a brewery but don't want us to know.
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The Speaker bore responsibility?? lol
All I saw was him blaming the Police and the Serjeant-at-arms.
He clearly must resign, but won't.
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So, the sole arbiter of whether or not the Police are allowed to raid Parliament and search and seize documents from the office of an elected representative, without a warrant, is the Serjeant at Arms.
Discuss
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229 derek
This appears to be complete capitulation, my lord. I am really unworthy to receive the whole of your second paragraph, but I do thank you for it most humbly.
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232 laughatthetories
""Enshrines in law the government's commitment to eradicate child poverty by 2020"
Anyone can commit, the difficult bit is achievement.
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It seems the first victim here is democracy.
At the risk of being niaive, an independent civil service should be there to serve us the people first and foremost, not any particular Government. Its purpose should be to assist in the smooth governance of our country (including well informed debate between Government and opposition) not the blameless rule of the incumbent Government.
Civil service always runs the risk of being self serving as it and its management are responsible for the implementation of policy, and if statistics suggest bad practice then disclosure may not be in its best interest, but it will nearly always be in ours.
My ideal civil service would have a duty of care to disclose all public information to appropriate elected representatives to enable proper debate. If the disputed information (or any part of it) does indeed prove to be in the public's interest to be disclosed, then the real crime is one of failure to disclose, not the final setting right by "leaking".
In that case, all those in the chain of command above Mr Galley, including government ministers should resign, and they can leave their gold plated pensions and titles at the door, since they have never understood the basic principles of public service and should feel lucky that they've been paid for so long without being found out.
If the Conservatives had a right to the information they received then it was a mistake in my view to just use it. They should have formally requested it. If it then turns up then they could ask why it wasn't provided automatically, and if not then they could use the leaked information to uncover those responsible for suppressing it.
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It seems a shame that our police force has to act so heavy handedly to prove its independence and that even our elected representatives are not beyond its reach.
Let's assume that a senior civil servant did indeed have significant evidence that sensitive information was being leaked to an MP who had no right to receive it. They wouldn't just ring the local police station and report it like a lost wallet. With an MP implicated you'd want to do it correctly.
In this case a most senior civil servant started the proceedings which seems appropriate from a civil service perspective. OK he's proud of his independence, but there must be a proper way to handle such a serious matter. Inform the Speaker, a committee or two, maybe? Even if you decide to bring in the police in yourself so as not to alert the suspect, you'd go in at the top and insist that everything was done by the book as it was going to be very high profile.
If I was a senior police officer, say a deputy commissioner, informed of such a matter, the first thing I'd do is check and double check that I wasn't being used in some elaborate cover up. Having decided firm evidence demanded the arrest of an MP, I'd put my best dress uniform on, get all possible paperwork signed by the highest authority in the land, and inform my boss of the political fallout that might entail, and then do the job in person.
From the parliament side, having been given prior notice, I would expect that the speaker would have resources to suspend an MP and seal the offices to protect the alleged crime scene. Then you gather the relevant political heads and ministers and you confirm that the search has been authorised appropriately and on sound evidence. Then allow the search to go ahead with appropriate parlimentary officers present to oversee correct procedure.
The idea that such a serious act could be undertaken with so few senior people beig informed and no official documentation just beggars belief.
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#328
Indeed. It really doesn't hang together does it?
Can so many people be so incompetent, or is there more to this than meets the eye?
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I think Martin (who has socialist leanings) and Jill Pay tHe Serjeant At Arms will eventually hav to go. Their integrity has been shot to pieces and they can no longer demand respect.
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322 re 319
I repeat aspects of the news story in order to clarify a position that I express, I hope clearly and impartially. What I have said does not and is not intended to impugn Mr Green in any way but to indicate where I believe open questions may lie. I read in what you say an implied defence of that person that is every bit as premature as the detraction of him, that you wrongly impute to me, would have been.
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322 re 319
I am also intrigued by the fact that the content of the information Mr Green is said to have handled is already in the public domain. Cases of the illegal employments you describe have been reported in the press more than once. The underlying actions and reactions in the opposing parties are the story now (it has yet to reach the top yet doubtless ministers will be firmly dragged in) and one that can not simply not be wished away. Discounting the political conflict that it represents by hearty cheers for whistleblowers is a very simplistic contribution to the relevant debate I would have thought.
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To summarise where we are ahead of Jacqui Smith's statement today:
The Government arm of Labour are claiming that the Tories are trying to say MP's are above the law, and that they are in danger of promoting leaks from Civil Servants as being perfectly acceptable as a means of information distribution at all times. Labour are wrong here on all points - but they know that and their tactics are just a smokescreen. Their backbenchers are mostly too embarrassed to say anything, and are starting to wonder where they'll get their info from when they're next in opposition (June 09 anyone?).
On the HofC search, Martin expresses "Regret", but is blaming his appointee Ms Pay and the Met for not having told him there wasn't a warrant - although it is clear also that he did nothing to ask about it, or otherwise to check matters. Martin is thus shown to be a) in a hole b) still digging c) slightly lacking initiative d) a poor boss.
What will Smith do? I suppose the favourite will be to announce an inquiry, and then run away to see if she can find the PM anywhere. A better start would be to unravel the murkiness of all her previous answers to questions about prior knowledge, and to apologise for giving the impression that she takes us all for gullible fools who can't see through Nu-Labour political double speak.
We still need to see the words the Cabinet Office/Home Office used that persuaded the Met that there was a serious crime to investigate - how was "National Security" used for example - and did anyone question what was said?
Cameron has to make sure he doesn't appear to condone or encourage disloyalty in a Civil Servant. Perhaps on this one he can let the PM explain his own long-held views on this subject based on his own very direct experience of leaks in opposition.
The strange thing is, I think they still don't get it
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323
If you are looking at my own reference to what was 'borne by Mr Speaker' (319), you may have noted a hint of irony, but I think you did not. But as I did not in fact use the word 'responsibility' no doubt you were looking at a different post and I apologise for needlessly drawing your attention
to mine .
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* Illegal invasions of 'immoral' sovereign states
* Beating up and arresting critics at party rallies
* Imprisonment without trial
* Control of the state media
* ID cards
* Secret police force set up to carry out the leaders bidding
and now,
* The arrest and intinidation of Opposition MPs
All tactics used by paranoid, power crazed, left wing leaders - Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Mugabe - and now our own unelected Gordon Brown.
Is the socialist argument really so weak it must always resort to this? Shameful!
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318 Bog
my extremely polite and totally uncontroversial response (333) to you has been zapped.
bleat, bleat, big brother, bbc bias etc...
If a civil servant has got something which is genuinely in the public interest to reveal then s/he should make a public statement telling us all.
A 2-year mole in the Home Office arouses suspicions about what s/he knows but hasn't yet leaked. I am glad that the police took steps to establish what was known by whom.
You're happy for moles to play fast and loose with information, though you don't know what the information was / is, good for you. Fortunately, the police took a different view. There is no room for doubt, and no room for complacency.
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What a storm in a teacup!
Moles have leaked to opposition parties since time immemorial and, except in the rarest of cases, the impact has been a good old yah-boo moment in Westminster and maybe a tabloid shock/horror-fest.
The underlying problem that makes all this nonsense possible is the obsessive secrecy of governments of all persuasions. Just look at the number of ministerial warrants preventing disclosure, without any right of challenge in law.
Face it folks, that is not going to change, 'cos knowledge is power!
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This affair seems to run and run, with differing folk telling different versions of the tale. Jacqui Smith does not want to be told, her secretary then spoils it by saying he could not get her on the phone. The Speaker says he was not told and the Serjuant (sp?) at Arms was not read her rights. The police say that she was.
But no one has landed a knock out blow yet and the ministers know from previous situations that all they have to do is bluff it out until everyone forgets.
Note the resignations in Mumbai? Not the politicians fault, but they took responsibility- hints to the Labour Front Bench.
I don't like Peter Hain, but he did resign to give himself space to sort out the matter of forgetting to declare the odd donation. He is still not liked but gets a star for being honourable.
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I've commented, before, on marketing waves and people getting tugged along by them, and was idly thinking of commenting on that again when you came up with "THE RAGE". It's a good one.
I've found American's are less hesitant about picking stuff up and using it, while the British tend too only pick stuff up to beat you around the head. That's the broken fundamentals, and worse online.
Yeah, you're worried about your branding. That's fair enough, but you also need to grow the market. It's not really my sort of thing but, I figured, I've have a play and pimp it around a bit just to see what happened.
One great promotional tool is arguing: the top two in any market often go head to head but this isn't for the customers benefit or for developing better products, it's just a self-promoting marketing tool.
Anyway, I jacked that game in years ago. I much prefer thesis to arguing, and identifying and discussing interesting stuff appeals more. I figure, if you polish your brand you can keep the trade mark on "The Rage" thing. Everyone's a winner.
Superpowers don't go to war very often. I guess, it's for similar reasons. They're just too developed and any war would be a serious business and cost too much. It's only wannabes who throw a fit, and mental nations which tip over the edge.
I'm rambling again...
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CEH
Superpowers don't go to war very often. I guess, it's for similar reasons. They're just too developed and any war would be a serious business and cost too much. It's only wannabes who throw a fit, and mental nations which tip over the edge.
......unless there's something much more lucrative in it for them..!
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#337
Fine, so rewrirte the history of leaking if you like. Go on, just tell us once that Brown should be prosecuted for his umpteen leaks in the '80's/'90's. He shouldn't, but I want to see you take yor "logic" all the way.
I've also noticed your standard tactic of retreating to the "we must be careful, we don't know what it entailed......" line. Sometimes we should "tread carefully", other times just "take care".
Of course, whilst it tries to sound terribly sensible and mature, it's neither particularly sensible because it hypothesises an allegation no-ones made, and of course in this case it's plain wrong because the government has agreed there was no OSA implications.
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The underlying political reactions are totally OFF the point.
The point is the Legislatures ability to hold the executive to account is being hobbled by a politicised Judiciary In this case, the Police).
There is little more fundamental to the health of the nation.
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Re comment 330. sicilian29
quote: "I think Martin (who has socialist leanings) and Jill Pay the Serjeant At Arms will eventually have to go. Their integrity has been shot to pieces and they can no longer demand respect."
Respect is something that should be earned, it is not something that should be demanded. We are being treated to a bit of political theatre, a nice change from the more "normal" performances perhaps!
As for our "parliamentary democracy" it hasn't worked effectively in a very long time, if indeed at all. Hands up all those who believe that parliament can hold the 'executive' to account?
The whole system is run by the few, not by the many. All it takes is one man and a bunch of cronies to wreck parliamentary democracy. Jobs for the boys is no joke, but if you are prepared to do what that very small number of people want you can certainly further your career as an MP in parliament. The rewards not only include promotion but also honours. And it's called representation of the people!
The only time they appear interested in the public is when they want your vote. Once elected you are of little if any further interest. Make genuine complaints of real public interest and concern and it appears they take them as some sort of threat, and more often than not the issues raised are are not responded to fully and the reply received will contain spin rather than fact.
Don't complain about armed police officers whatever you do, including the dangerous handling of a loaded weapon in a public place. While you 'might' be thanked for your concern, little if anything seems to get done about it.
Please note that these comments are not aimed at one particular political party - but at both the main ones in Britain today.
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Bogbrush clearly needs to douse himself in carbolic or some such disinfectant. He's clearly been hanging around some nasty Tory environs which has contaminated his clogged toilet brittles with stinky bog stuff!
YUK!!!
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Well, well, well....
It seems the Home Office mole has friends in high places, some media are reporting that there is a 'fifth columist' in the Cabinet too.
They are leaking information to the Tories.
Of particular interest, the Smith Institute (a registered charity) established by Brown has been siphoning money for political purposes.
Naughty, naughty, naughty. Explicitly not allowed by Charities Commission rules.
The means and motives to the bizarre decision to arrest the mole and their 'handler' make far more sense.
After all Brown leaked far, far more sensitive information during the Cold War than illegal immigrants working in Parliament.
More importantly, Brown is orchestrating the whole fight back, so what about the decision to arrest Green? The Home Secretary refused to be drawn into how much she knew, this would have to go right to the top.
As for the Speaker not knowing a warrant is needed, that kind of schoolboy error is a flimsy, flimsy excuse for his behaviour.
Never ever trust the narrative being spoon-fed to the masses, whether the Speaker resigns or not is moot.
He'll be the scapegoat to cover up the bigger story.
Of who is the Cabinet mole?
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