Meet the Home Office mole
In the words of his lawyer, Home Office civil servant Christopher Galley "gave information which was important for the public to know" in a series of meetings held with the Conservative immigration spokesman, Damian Green, over the past two years.
Mr Galley sat silently as Neil O'May - who you may recognise as the man who represented Lord Levy in the cash-for-honours investigation - stated that "if ever there's a case of don't shoot the messenger, this is it".
Mr Galley's side of this story is now clear:
• He did give "regular" leaks to Mr Green;
• All of it was what his lawyer O'May describes as "embarrassment material" and not documents that would be covered by the Official Secrets Act such as those relating to state secrets, terrorism, national security or which would lead to "financial jeopardy";
• There were no "inducements" offered by Mr Green to persuade Mr Galley to leak (his lawyer said that "the statement was clear re inducements" and it makes no mention of them);
• He would have been happy to confess all to the police if they'd simply asked him rather than sending seven officers to his house to arrest him and then question him for 17 hours.
Update 19:48: What complicates this tale hugely is that it involves not just the politics of Westminster, but also the politics of the police.
Today was the deadline for applications for the top job in policing, the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police - who, you might just have noticed, will be appointed by none other than the Home Secretary.
Among those who are believed to have applied today are:
• the man who authorised the arrest of Galley & Green - Sir Paul Stephenson, Acting Commissioner;
• the head of specialist operations at the Met which carried out the operation - Assistant Commissioner Bob Quick;
• the man who today offered ACPO's backing for the way in which the Home Office has handled this inquiry - Chief Constable Ken Jones, the President of ACPO, who today issued a statement which will have been music to the Home Secretary's ears.
He writes that:
ACPO has shared the concerns of the Permanent Secretary (of the Home Office) regarding leaks from his department. The Metropolitan Police Service was properly asked to assist... The independence of UK law enforcement from undue influence and pressure is the jewel in the crown in our system of criminal justice. We should protect that principle, even when inconvenient, as it occasionally is. If an investigation reveals that any person may be involved in wrongdoing then they have the right to expect that we will investigate the matter in ways which seek to get at the truth and either sustain the allegation or exonerate them. No one can be above the law.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~57~RS~)
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Didnt brown want whistle blowers to blow their whistles?
At least this Guy has got some BOTTLE.
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Nick,
These regular leaks, are they the same type of leaks as your briefings from your own sources?
What is the difference between the two, if there is?
These leaks have been going on for over two years now, so how come the sudden rush to call plod in?
Xxxx
PS
Why was my blog of yesterday, 823 so offensive and referred? And your answer is what.......?
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Nick,
so now exactly what is going on. Why is 'the mole' able to give a press conference through his solicitor.
As there were no inducements how is it that the word 'inducements' has been used in BBC news reports, why has the term 'grooming' been used at all? Who gave the information to the BBC on which their earlier reports were made. I refer especially to 'grooming' used on the Today broadcast.
we need to know who actually authorised the arrest of Mr Green, who gave permission for the raid on his parliamntary office, and when will they return his computer and other technological equipment.
I regard this as a severe intrusion on the work of an MP, if they do this to him then what hope is there for any of us.
The Prime Minister, who seems to be missing in action must make a full statement, with the Home Secretary by his side. I regard this whole process as totally unacceptable. Talk about a running commtary!
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I'd like to publicly thank Mr Galley - he did us a great service in exposing the incompetence of the HO in handling immigration. It is through the very brave efforts from whistleblowers such as he that Labours attempts to spin are undermined. If only more such would come forward and expose the lies we have been subjected to over the last eleven years.
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Wow! This is getting interesting.
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No surprise then!
All in the public interest.
But everyone knew that already
Now it is up to the Members of Parliament to hold those responsible for this fiasco to account.
No matter what their seniority.
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At least we have a clear explanation of what went on which is more than Gordon Brown who was leaking material in the 80's and 90's .Perhaps the police should now go back and investigate his crimes for that time bearing in mind that there is an admission of guilt openly made to Frank Bough in a tv interview.
At least if they put Brown away for a while he couldnt do any more damage to this country.
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As with Mr. Green all the police had to do was pick up a telephone. The whole affair was intended to frighten and embarrass the victims.
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I thought Alistair and Mandy were the kings of spin?
They had better get a grip and quick 'cos this story is spinning out of control and will cause casualties on the Labour side.
What price a new Home Sec before the end of the week?
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Will you withdraw your previous blog posting?
Given that it is now very clear that there was no 'grooming'.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
There you are, you see. Something of an overkill reaction by police, totally inappropriate of them to behave in such a high handed manner. Did they state the terrorism laws on this as well?
Can't believe Crash Gordon knew nothing about it.
Certainly been bad news day for Brown, first the Labour run Haringey Council debacle and now this.
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Oh dear, come on mods, you've been doing so well up 'til now.
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Why do we hear this now?
Do I detect the construction of a smoke-screen behind which all parties run for cover?
Who is paying this lawyer?
Are we at the start of an establishment cover up?
Let us recap: the police have raided Parliament, the Speaker let them, The Home Secretary thinks this is OK, The Leader of The House thinks not, the Prime Minster is waiting to hear what Mandy thinks, the Tories are supported by Tony Benn, and the nation is enraged.
In that game of two halves in which twenty three men run around a defined grassy space in pursuit of a round object filled with air, they call this an `own goal'.
I am not impressed with soccer but I can see its attraction.
Neither am I impressed with this display of shoddy incompetence by the government and the Commons authorities. It is most unattractive and heads must roll.
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Out of curiousity, I had a quick look at Mr Peston's blog to see what his opinion on government leaks might be. I did not find any reference to them. strange that.
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Gordon had a little lamb
Whose hair was white as snow,
All except his eyebrows
Which were jet-black, like a crow.
He tried to write a budget,
But Gordon shouted 'NO!'
He made him borrow billions,
And screamed 'OUR DEBT IS LOW!'
So grumpy Gordon bullied him,
His tears began to flow,
Then Gordon lost in 2010---
Brown, you reap just what you sow.
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Obviously NuLab ministers and their pet police officers consider embarrassing this government and it's infallible supremo as tantamount to High Treason.
Hence all the Cambellson generated comments about 'state secrets'.
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Which is what I suspected and which is why well known right wingers like Dennis MacShane have gone to the press voicing their disquiet.
The police definitely had political cover for these heavy handed actions.
But it seems to have backfired stupendously.
What we need now is a leak from within the treasury giving us the real numbers.
As some have suggested, the big story is the fact that UKplc is going down the financial pan.
Come on Nick - take a break from your undercover investigation of Mandelson's dealings with Russkies and dig into the PBR.
Hint: Pick up on Ken Clarke's suggestion that Brown/Darling changed the sums at the last minute.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It is a shame that the Tories weren't so keen on embarrasing leaks during the Belgrano Incident, the Westland affair which should have resulted in Thatcher's resignation, and the Arms for Iraq case. Inm those days they believed that leaking was wrong and leakers should e prosecuted. Now we have the Hug a Hoody and Lick a Leaker style of Tory from Cameron in Opposition.
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This is going to be a "Ruth Turner".
He will be disappear into obscurity to collect his compensation package.
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Nick's blog is full of spammers
And Derek Draper's trolls,
Loyal, true-blue Tories
And ordinary proles.
We all want a better government,
One that doesn't lie,
'We tell the truth' Nu-Labour say,
Yeah--- and pigs might fly.
Gordon wants to rule us
As if he was our King,
He clawed his way to power
And ruined everything.
He wants history to love him,
Blair was just the same,
But what's really going to happen
Is our kids will curse his name.
The hole Nu-Lab are digging
Deepens by the hour:
They're a ragged bunch of hoodlums
Desperate to stay in power.
They're not a party any more,
They're an empty shell,
So don't condemn us to another term
Of the government from Hell.
Take heed fellow bloggers,
Listen to my song,
If you vote for Labour
You'll do Great Britain wrong.
We need a new beginning,
An end to lies and spin---
A party that won't spy on you
'Cause you overfilled your bin.
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#9 brightonmike
I thought Alistair and Mandy were the kings of spin?
They had better get a grip and quick 'cos this story is spinning out of control and will cause casualties on the Labour side.
...................................
I'll bet Mandy and Campbell are in their elements.
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Well, not quite, the psychosis quotient inside HMG is now through the ceiling as a state of fugue sets in and they search for anything else there might possibly be to let them off the hook. And that's not necessarily another mole, but a highly conveniently-timed association of the Opposition with something even darker. We live in interestibng times.
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Having just read that Harriet Harman is due to review the law regarding the intrusions that MP's might face - and bearing in mind that Labour have introduced more laws in a term of government than any other previous government in the last 40 years.
Would it be cynical to suggest that the honorable member may actually suggest bringing in a new law to prevent this from happening again?
Maybe - anyone caught leaking gets stoppered?
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Time for a lot of people to eat their words.
Where did all those reports /leaks[?]come from saying he had reported to the police he was 'groomed' or induced.
Lies
The police?
The Govt?
John Charles all over again. So Mr Galley told them 'everything' and this is it!
Green was telling the truth. And Green was arrested on a fishing expedition so they could search without having to get a warrant signed off by a judge/magistrate - that would almost certainly have been an obstacle.
This shows why Jaqui's excuse that she was not following events to be as bad is if she were.
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Why all this animosity against Gordon Brown and Labour? It seem's like all neocons have decided that they will demand Labour blood on BBC's blogs?
You guys should get a life...
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And still Nick shows no incredulity at Greens arrest.
Where is his curiosity about why Green was arrested.
Amazing..
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Noting one of the comments above I would like to say the treatment metered out to him was a disgrace and I would like to apologise on behalf of the British people, because the Govt won't.
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It appears that Christopher Galley has a very hot shot lawyer.
I assume that you remain confident in your sources regarding the word you used to describe his relationship with Damian Green in your previous posting?
Will they stand up in court if necessary?
I trust that the phraseology used was cleared by BBC lawyers and that they remain confident use of the word to allow it to stay online?
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#12 flamepatricia
I said virtually the same as you but I got moderated.
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O' the Hooky Pooky,
Not so fast fledglings, the IN and OUTS of this investigation are certainly moving fast.
Flamepatricia, no need to go damp and all wet on the issue, honestly, talk about the fisher man tale!
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Amazing what people say on here.
A Lawyer representing a client states "There were no induicements"
and that's taken as gospel, a fact that proves Green's innocence.
Every court case has a Lawyer claiming certain points prove their clients innocence - Wrongly !! in many cases.
What do you expect him to say>
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Hi Nick,
I'd been wondering on what grounds the police had seized Green's computers from his parliamentary office as I'd always understood that the police needed some indications that they would find something in a raid before actually conducting a raid.
Given that it now turns out that the source of the leak is saying that Green did not solicit the leaked material, I'm at a loss as to how the police justify the search of Green's office or his arrest. Any ideas?
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OK NICK, Now do your job, start digging, get all the relevant facts and Publish. Thats what we pay you for and it is the very least we expect.
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Eatonrifle
Looks like you were right not have taken me up on that wager doesnt it.
Good call.
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The question is does anyone really care including the Tory party about this tale about a groomer and a Tory sycophant? Perhaps the real story is the Tories know that there are a few Labour MPs and a few liberals to boot who care more about the perceived freedoms they defend than what is going on in the real world. Perhaps they think that if they bash on enough about this rather boring subject enough dirt may stick to the Government and then they get a big lead back in the polls?
I suspect though that those of us on the Clapham omnibus have a bit more on our minds right now
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Hi Nick
Will you eat your words re "grooming" as that has clearly not happened? It has also been a disgusting Nu-Lab smear that you have kindly repeated for them.
Will you also have a good word with "your friend" Michael Crick as Friday night's report on Newsnight was basically a 10 minute smear on Damien Green and The Tories.
Haven't you guys figured out yet that Labour are doomed and you'll be negotiating with a Tory culture secretary in 18 months or less?
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I am fair minded, I may despise brown, labour and all socialism - but that is only because they deserve it.
You can't condem the police based on one statement issued by the 'suspect'.
While what was done to green was certainly wrong, and what happend to this guy seems wrong, there is still more info to come.
The only logic for the (disgraceful) raid on the green would be that the police beleived that he had other material the he would destroy rather than admit to having...
It would be stupid for galley to lie if the police had evidence to the contrary - so on what did they base their belief that there were other more secret documents in greens posession?
I think it must mean that the home office have lost other far more sensitive documents (and know they are missing), and this is part of their desparate search for them. However it seems they have the wrong men - so there may be an even bigger mole (working for who?) who has made off with the other secret, missing documents...
Who is this other mole and what have they made off with???
Nick get digging - and do a better job than you did with mandleson/oleg...
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So, he wasn't 'groomed' then. Well done to the senior Labour politicians who have spoken out against this farce. They have shown that their integrity goes beyond partisan opportunism and deserve credit for that.
I think that the Home Secretary and Speaker of the House may well lose their jobs over this and Brown, Mandelson and Campbell will have to be on their best behaviour...the public are on to them!
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why is it taking over an hour to get post through?
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Any member of parliament - indeed any person of whatever position in the fabric of the nation (including ministers of the crown and police officers) - has a duty to expose cant, hypocrisy, venial or more serious corruption, incompetence or any other dodgy business carried out in our name by government.
Damian Green and Christopher Galley were undoubtedly honouring this responsibility in being the conduit of the information at issue. If Damian Green was actively seeking that such information should be passed to him - and perhaps encouraging an otherwise reticent Mr Galley to do so - that is to be applauded. Holding the government to account for its dealings is his job. It is a fundamental part of his role in representing the interests of his constituents.
Whitehall - both civil servants and ministers - works for us. When they lie, mislead, obfuscate, cock-up or otherwise fail to do their job, we expect - demand - the right to know. The Official Secrets Act and other similar statutes are not there to facilitate the covering-up of governmental misdemeanours.
The true crime has been committed by the current office holders and their lackeys, who appear to have put self-interest and back-covering in front of transparency. Whitehall - it appears - regards itself above the law.
Is not the Palace of Westminster a Court of Law? If so, an MP's parliamentary correspondence (and therefore computers and other data storage containing that correspondence) are privileged court documents and therefore not open to police investigation. To allow this would be to break the duty of confidentiality to constituents.
If Jackie Smith had any spine she would have clearly and publicly distanced herself from the invasion of parliamentary privilege - which exists specifically to protect the public. If Michael Martin had the wit to understand his duties as Speaker, he would have forbade the police raid on Damian Green's office in the House of Commons.
Additionally, it is clear to many people who have been the victims of many crimes that it is open to the police not to investigate. Why did the Met choose not to exercise this prerogative when faced with such a staggeringly obvious conflict of interests?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Surprise, surprise: Galley's statement confirms that that the police and government have almost certainly massively over-reacted.
Galley denies Green ever 'conspired' which is what the police arrested him for. Rather, Galley says he provided the information off his own bat.
Since Galley must have told the police this, how can the police possibly justify their actions?
The basis for Green's arrest looks flimsy beyond belief, let alone reasonable doubt in a court of law.
The only possible explanation I can think of is that the police arrested Green to see whether they could find anything incriminating in his papers/effects.
I thought the police needed some evidence before they could arrest someone, let alone a shadow cabinet minister, but clearly not anymore.
If I were Green, I would sure for wrongful arrest or worse.
And if the above is proven to be correct, heads really must roll:
- the Speaker should resign as he allowed the search without any real justification from the police
- the police officers involved should be summarily dismissed for massively and unforgivably overstepping the mark and abusing their powers
- and the Home Secretary herself should resign for presiding over such an unutterable, incompetent mess.
We are not a banana republic, and that fact must be brought home to those involved.
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The whole Brown government leaks like a seive .( why the US don't give them any classified information ) Last week's PBR was carefully "leaked " to the media over the course of several days. Why didn't the terrorist squad raid your house Nick or the house of every other reporter at Westminster ? This is a government sponsorred exercise to scare whistleblowers who put the good of their country before the contemptible behaviour of their political masters. To go off thread, why are the BBC not asking questions about the EU's statement that Britain is ready to join the euro ? There was a quote which said " the people who matter have decided ". This of course is probably something the government does not want the BBC to talk about.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I think this well and truly puts to bed any conspiracy theories and crap regarding the Conservatives and puts the ball right back in Brown and smith's court...all that 'grooming' toss today...it was unbelivable and now it seems with good reason. I hope for some action against Martin and hopefully Brown too come wednesday! PMQs should be fun but let's not forget IT'S THE ECONOMY STUPID...Mandy and Ali's attempt was a good one but has now fallen flat.
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#45 bluntjeremy
I thought the police needed some evidence before they could arrest someone, let alone a shadow cabinet minister, but clearly not anymore.
I think anyone can be arrested under the Terrorism Act these days. This was used when the Government went into the Icelandic Bank, I believe.
Be afraid.
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Obviously NuLab ministers and their police officers consider embarrassing this government and it's infallible supremo as tantamount to High Treason.
Hence all the Cambellson generated comments about 'state secrets'.
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Wednesday should be an interesting day - if there were any justice in this world, we would have a new Home Secretary and a new (non-Labour) Speaker by the close of day.
Brown, Smith and Martin have some very awkward questions to answer and this time it won't just be Opposition MPs asking them.
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In case my previous comment gets censored (again) I shall try to re-phrase it:
The government obviously considers the leaking of information that discloses governmental incompetence to be a form of 'treason' (rather than just an embarrassment) - hence its propagandists and acolytes carping on about 'state secrets'.
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If the police were in possession of this evidence from the "co defendant" right from the start where is, "their reasonable suspicion," supporting the searches, arrest and detention of the M.P.
There is none.
They merely went on a fishing expedition at the behest of their Lord and Masters.
What should concern everyone is that the police are now in possession of a lot of confidential material. There will be a lot of oohing and arrhing when they go through this material.
It won`t be long before some of this gets into the public domain and into the hands of the Govt and Secret Services.
This Govt should hang its head in shame. Did not some bozzo somewhere along the chain of command or in Govt work out the ramifications of this. It makes us look absoultely stupid to the rest of the world.
Let Gordon Brown now try lecturing to third world dictators about democracy and freedom.
Not only has this Govt made us financially bankrupt, it has made us morally bankrupt as well.
How much worse can things get under this Government.
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Lots of Mods and Rockers out tonight
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Nick, what next? will the anti terrorism laws
be used to anyone who opposes the Government?
Will you have to watch what you print about Labour?
How much further down can this Gov. go?
This is amazingly awful.
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So if there was no "inducement" to leak (other than perhaps some hope of reward in the future in that boy's head), how can the Police build a case against Damian Green? They'll have to prove both of them to be liars, or the case will be thrown out long before the jury are asked to consider their verdict.
This is very embarrassing for Gordon Brown. He can't make it go away, but he seems too stubborn to criticise the Police for being heavy-handed/cowardly to admit he was aware of at least the investigation. Of course that's his own fault.
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In the light of the mole's "coming out", it is more interesting than ever to wonder what Speaker Martin is going to say if the BBC's Row over Green 'grooming' claims is correct in stating that on Wednesday, "Commons Speaker Michael Martin will address Parliament about the raid on Mr Green's offices".
I find it therefore not a little odd that at the time of writing, the House of Commons home page carries no news of this and simply shows:
"At 11.30am The Commons will be summoned to the House of Lords to hear the Queen's Speech
At 2.30pm Debate on the Address: First day"
This is confirmed by the Parliamentary Calendar, which simply adds that the Adjournment debate will be on Health services in Telford, lead by David Wright.
I wonder why Martin hasn't had his address put on the calendar? It should still be worth watching BBC Parliament from 10:40 on Wednesday, when coverage of the state opening starts. It might even be more interesting to those uninterested in the procession to watch the bunfight on Parliament Live TV, where you can switch between the Commons and Lords chambers at will.
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I note with interest that there have been three departures from Haringey and none from HMG. It is tragic that a defenseless child should have fallen victim to the craven. It is unforgivable that democracy should be sacrificed on the alter on self interest. The Home Secretary has to go and go now. The rest of this shabby regime should follow without delay.
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#31 Economicallyliterate
"It appears that Christopher Galley has a very hot shot lawyer.
.....
I trust that the phraseology used was cleared by BBC lawyers and that they remain confident use of the word to allow it to stay online?"
Excellent post, but they may already be at it. I've had two referred posts physically removed today that were on-topic and of which Bowdler would have been proud. They did, however, use the m-word.
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I'm not sure why my comment at "18" has not passed the moderators, so I'll try again.
Nick, you say in your blog that it is clear from the press conference held by Mr Galley's solicitor that there were "regular" leaks to Mr Green. I have watched the press conference and can find no such indication. There is no use of the word "regular" to justify its inclusion in quotation marks in your piece. There is not even anything from which one could infer regularity.
One wonders why you make this claim on your blog? It provides a slant not backed up by the press conference reported.
Surely the interesting angle to take from the press conference is the complete denial of anything that would justify the line taken by the Home Secretary in her Marr interview and by other Labour politicians since Friday morning, suggesting (against anything in open evidence) that there is a national security bent to the documents Mr Green is alleged to have procured.
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23 power_2_the_ppl
Great post !!!!!!!
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23. power_2_the_ppl
LOL
Very good,
whens your album coming out?
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Hardly a revelatory statement. We could certainly free up a lot of prison space if we just start assuming that if people say they're innocent, they are.
It seems a bit odd, if this really is nothing more than the usual leaking process, that the police have got involved in this way.
Putting two and two together, the best guess is that probably a role in a future Tory administration was dangled in return for a steady flow of dirt.
What if 90% of the senior civil service were card-carrying political activists of one party, who leaked all information about the others that they could find, whether in government or opposition. Would that be good for democracy?
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#51
and this time it won't just be Opposition MPs asking them.
Oh yes they will. Nobody on the Labour side will dare break ranks. They had their chance back in the summer when Gordon's fingernails were bitten to the quick and he had the haunted look of a man who knew he'd been rumbled.
And they bottled it.
They're now destined to be associated forever with the economic, social and constitutional meltdown that this most incompetent government in history has wrought. And they've put the laws in place for a vengeful Tory government to hold them to account.
Show trials all round in 2010.
And if we don't convict 'em the first time we can always try a second time.
And people thought Margaret Thatcher was losing the plot towards the end of her reign. Gordon Brown is a clear and present danger to all our wellbeing. He has now irretrievably destroyed the economy and the social unrest that will inevitably follow will take a generation or more to resolve. Thanks to this governments staggering incompetence and their supporters blind hatred of the other lot we are shortly to become as relevant to world history as the once mighty Portuguese.
All the yanks fault no doubt. Or the banks. Or Margaret Thatcher's.
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OK, so now according to some posters we must believe innocence because the man's lawer said so.......
By that token most who appear in our courts are innocent......
Get real people, he's not going to say he received inducement, payment or promise from Green is he? Green has yet to state he did nothing illegal, he used the subjective term wrong. I imagine he has lawers currently looking to find out if he can state the he acted legally at all times, and that the final analysis will be borderline.
One last point we only know about the information Green published we do not know all information that was passed, nor do we know what other information this man had access to. If you cannot keep to the OSA don't sign it.
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not even mp's are above the law so let's await the evidence stop speculating and STOP spinning its pathetic how the "BBC" join in, with the presspack, going with the flow .
get serious on serious issues.
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Full credit to Mr. Galley for having the honesty to inform an MP of matters that were in the public domain, none was related to terrorism.
Why therefore was the MP concerned and also Mr. Galley arrested? This, it appears to have shocked NuLab politicians, not to mention Old Labour, i.e Tony Benn and again, credit to those who have spoken.
I am a Conservative voter and always have been but credit where credit is due.
11 plus years of NuLab, its spin, dicatorship and misuse of the economy, education, farming, the NHS, immigration, law & order, etc,.etc., has left a broken Britain.
I am in despair, we once had so much to be proud of , now thanks to Blair (who knew when to get out) we have nothing except a huge debt and the suicide pill beckons!
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Interesting list of applicants for the top job at the Met! I wonder how you came by it?
I imagine that job applications are a confidential matter and someone has "leaked" this? I would hope the Metropolitan Police Authority will launch an independent inquiry as to the source of the leak.
I trust they know where you live if they need to find the source of the leak?
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Just to add to the fun. Who was it who informed Boris and Cameron prior to the arrest of Damien Green and the search of his offices?
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the arrest and search is it now OK to give out notice of such actions to associates of the subject of the warrant? Or are MPs exempt? Would such action have been deemed OK if it had been a Sinn Fein MP? Just as well as they refused to take the Loyal Oath?
My point is where do you draw the line?
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Come on NuLabour, give us just one reasonable hypothesis as to why Green was arrested by Counter Terrorism officers, detained for 9 hours and had his offices raided and computers confiscated.
One of you must have at least one idea.
Oh yes and Derek that video was for real, thats what you find on the streets of London now.
And whats more they are actually about to be assigned to deal with 999 calls as well.
God help us.
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So these people have given very clear statements:
1. Damian Green
2. The Police
3. Christopher Galley
That just leaves:
1. The government to answer all the areas of 'grey' concerning ministerial involvement and knowledge in the affair (which are summarised in Dominic Grieve's 50 questions)
2. Michael Martin to give his statement on Wednesday.
I do not imagine Gordon or Jackie will give firm and clear statements, but I would like to be proved wrong.
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post no. 47 should say
'Of course Galley and Green are entirely innocent, they can't have done it because they're Tories, and so must be decent chaps. They are only standing up for the ordinary person, like Tories always have done since the Corn Laws were repealed. It should be Smith, Martin, Brown, Mandy and Campbell who are in the dock, country's going to the dogs, even my portfolio of property and banking shares has underperformed recently.'
Is that allowed? This was a free country once when Thatcher and Tebbit were running it.
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#28 impartialnot
"Why all this animosity against Gordon Brown and Labour? It seem's like all neocons have decided that they will demand Labour blood on BBC's blogs? You guys should get a life..."
And it seems you assume that anyone who opposes NuLab's "provo" unionists must be in thrall to the "official" unionists. There are even many from old Labour who disagree with them, let alone all the home rulers from the LibDems to PC and the SNP.
Anybody who cares about democracy at all must be concerned that the state has had access to all of Green's constituents' confidential correspondence with him.
And for what? Actions of Mr Galley for which the police have not made a charge more than two weeks after his arrest. I will personally be very surprised if Messrs Galley and Green are ever brought to court, let alone convicted of anything.
It would also seem from your first "What happened to unbiased journalism?" to this evening's If you wondered, I've reported a series of comments to the moderators because they are just to stupid libelous/defamatory and does not belong to a moderate site like BBC. that you've appointed yourself as our unofficial moderator's helper.
I doubt you're ashamed of yourself, but others may just see this comment before you refer it and at least know the truth.
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My best guess at the sequence of events is a Henry VIII moment from The Maximum Leader 'Will no one rid me of this mole...?'
With her face duly eaten off by Brown, Von Smith repeated the exercise on some mandarin with veiled or not-so-veiled threats of what his P45 would look like.
And so the poor chap without a clue who to blame or where to start called in Plod. Culminating in this Galley chap being arrested as far back as 11th November apparently.
Mind you, that's where I just don't get it. Having arrested the 'culprit' (Galley) all the government had to do was say 'thanks very much', see ya. Plod had done their job - found the chap who was 'leaking'.
Who got it into their head to go after an MP for receiving leaked information? What kind of chain of command allowed it to escalate to this point? Are senior police and Home Office officials so clueless that they didn't see how this was snow-balling and start winding their necks in or asking for adult guidance?
Are we seriously to believe that in the two weeks since this Galley chap was identified nobody briefed Herr Smith that the police were going after an MP?
Did nobody get out their big book of parliamentary procedure and find a way to nip the arrest of an MP for doing his job in the bud? I dunno, maybe give The Speaker the heads-up that he was about to be approached by Plod and he should knock them back?
It goes to the heart of what is wrong with this government. They just have no idea of what they've been given. What they've been entrusted with.
Or if they do understand they seem to take great joy in recklessly destroying it. The economy, the balance of trust between government and citizen, the legal and constitutional safeguards that have served us well for centuries.
They are a bunch of incompetents and vandals. No thought for the consequences of anything that gets into their diseased minds.
This will not end well.
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<RICHPOST><B>Unbelieveable!!!</B><BR /><BR /><BR />The government have got into hot water on this issue again!!<BR /><BR /><BR />They have accidently sent an e-mail to the Conservatives which outlines how the Government are preparing the Speakers Wednesday statement.<BR /><BR /><BR />The Conservatives rightly object and say:<BR /><BR /><BR /><I> "This is a completely improper meeting convened by the government privately with the Commons authorities and senior civil servants to manage the Speaker's statement without representation from other parliamentarians. <BR /><BR />This is precisely the sort of leak that should make it into the public domain. We insist on being present at this meeting along with representatives from all political parties to discuss the issues on the agenda. </I>[Broken URL removed by Moderator]here</A> </RICHPOST>
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Quite hard to get a decent look at the picture of Mr Galley, he does look rather happy, on the other hand he may look as though he needs to go for a leak.
I'm sure young Brownedov will have a more interesting take on Mr Galley.
O'may O' my, thats a heavy duty lawyer?
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Is it that case that people dressed as police and probably armed can turn up at Parliament building and gain admittance.
So Alkeida can just now send 10 terrorist to the opening of parliament with a false search warrant and gain admittance.....
Surely not - ministers have to be involved to ensure a 9/11 or India massacre does not take place.
We are told by Jacqui Smith - terrorist can be very clever....
shes needs to stop being so dumb then!!!!
Be more clever not less.
How can we tell real police from alkieda police... Ms Smith ?????
Wait till they shoot ?????
It should take 20 hoops for police to gain entrance to such a public building.....
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37 Carrots
What exactly was the wager?
I'm not on here 24/7 like some some so I may have missed it, I actually spend some time at what we call WORK.
Was the wager about the Green affair, if so I really find it hard to see how you reach a conclusion as yet.
Is it beacause the Tory Party activist Leaker's own legal representative says all his leaks were in the public interest and there was no inducement?
Must be true then, case closed.
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Labour Party badly affected by the return home of Polish plumbers: yet another leak!
The Tories have accused ministers of seeking to exert influence over the Commons speaker ahead of his statement about the Damian Green leak row.
They say a leaked e-mail shows Commons leader Harriet Harman inviting Home Secretary Jacqui Smith to discuss the statement with parliamentary officials.
The Tories said such a meeting would be "completely improper".
The speaker is to make a statement amid anger from MPs at how police were able to search Mr Green's Commons office.
Story from BBC NEWS:
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Your collegue Carol Walker said the sloicitors refused to comments on whether inducements were offered .
That is inaccurate.
Disgraceful.
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News Flash
Dozens of MI5, Special Branch Officers along with the Anti Terrorist Squad have been rushed to Newmarket for it is rumoured that some stable lads and lassies are beieved to be carrying out GROOMING which in Browns Britain is now illegal and jeopardises National Security
NOTE:- NO GOVERNMENT MINISTERS HAD ANY PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF THIS EVENT. HOWEVER MEMBERS OF THE OPPOSITION WERE INFORMED, AS WAS THE JOCKEY CLUB !!
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IT'S A GOOD DAY FOR BURYING BAD NEWS.
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On this blog, the level of ignorance of the Law, the separation of powers between Government and Police/Judiciary, parliamentary privelage and what it means, is staggering or intentional, not sure which.
All the righteous indignation that the Police should have the gaul to investigate an allegation against a tory MP, when clearly they should have realised that he would be above the Law.
If ever there's an allegation that a top politician was a user of Class A drugs such as cocaine, no doubt they'll conclude that the person in question is "entitled to a private past"
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Right. So the two people who have been arrested and questioned have both said they are innocent. So that is apparently that, in the view of many/most on here. The police should just all go home, stop their enquiries, and take the word of a politician and someone who is a declared liar (since I assume he promised to uphold the law and to fulfill his employment contract before he was given his salary). There has by common consent been a crime - after all, if it had been a burglar who had obtained this material and then given it to Green there would have been no question of that, and it's a bit difficult to see any difference in principle. Of course, there is a defence available in both cases of 'the public interest', though that seems to be seen as the 'Conservative Party's interest' by many.
This willingness just to accept the plea of the plaintiff as the truth without further ado is novel in our system, but at least it will reduce the pressure on the Courts very substantially.
For myself, I await the evidence - all of it, not just one side - before leaping to any conclusions.
As for your somewhat scurrilous 'Update' Nick, just what are you suggesting? Not like you to be backward in coming forward. I'm surprised to see you pandering to the conspiracy theorists in this way, on the basis of no evidence whatsoever.
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Can it be long before we find out which school this Christopher Galley went to?
No doubt it will be a top priority to find out if went to Eton.
Remember guys. Smear the man - bury the message.
'Grooming'. 'State secrets'. 'Bullingdon toff'. 'Margaret Thatcher'.
Anything at all to deflect attention away from the fact that our economy is smoked and our government is in the grip of a lunatic.
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IT'S A GOOD DAY TO BURY BAD NEWS.
With all the goings on re Damian Green there is very little comment on the fact the Pound may be soon replaced by the Euro.
According to the President of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, the UK is 'closer than ever before, to joining the Euro'.
Why is it that the first we hear about this is from a 'leak' from the EU? Brown dare not make this announcement, yet he has done nothing to contradict it.
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51# Crowded Island
Actually what are those awkward questions?
Why did you not impede a legitimate Police Investigation?
Do you think MPs should be above the Law?
Why do you not break the centuries old convention of "separation of powers"
That sort of question?
You are one of dozens on here claiming that questions must be answered, well what are they?
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#55
I wouldn't worry too much about Nick on that front.
You don't get the nickname "
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so, would this arrest and searches have taken place in a county where the Chief Constable said 'no, I don't like this one bit, not on my patch' or would the Chief Constable's view have been superceded by the 'anti-terror aspect as one earlier poster suggested?
Has Chief Constable of Kent, Mike Fuller spoken about this yet? (still nothing on main Kent Police news page). He too is considered a coming man in the force, even being tipped for the Met job, and of course, being from a Caribbean background would be politically attractive the present Government.
Lest it be forgotten, Kent County Council tax payers have had to bear much of the burden for many aspects of immigration which is why a Kent Conservative party MP and the use of anti terror laws (channel tunnel, ferries, Canterbury Cathedral for instance) increases the interest in all of this even more.
The irony (and frustration) remains that throughout the period of the last Conservative government, and even with a Kent port Home Secretary, they didn't initiate the single most simple change to immigration possible.
Namely, to record who was leaving and who was arriving at the Kent ferry ports. Labour have now had 11 years to do the same and they too still haven't managed to issue an HM Stationary notepad and pencil to the people at the ports either. The result is that we haven't a clue who is here or who has left.
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#55
I wouldn't worry too much about Nick on that front.
You don't get the nickname "Toenails" for nothing you know.
( If you are puzzled by the above then just think about it for a moment, especially taking into consideration the well worn phrase and practice of "Brown Nosing", particularly with a similar namesake in mind )
Do you know some, including myself, look on David Icke as a bit "off the scale" as it where, but looking at Nick Robinson you begin to see he may have a point about "Repeaters".
Isn't that right Nick?
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This isnt about what was going on with DG, this is about who let the dogs out.
And if the dogs are letting themselves out why is that happening and who is calling them to heel. That is the issue. It is very difficult to nail a reciever of leakage and it is likely to fizzle out, as usual, at great cost to the taxpayer. If the mole was the target you come back to who let the dogs out.
It is rather funny that the anti terror type tactics promoted so hard by some MPs do not seem to be so welcome when they are targeted at their buddies, bit like the opposition to FOI requests relating to MPs. Okay when implemented against everybodyelse, just not MPs.
Is everybody now happy with the latest proposals for data collection. Who is going to be letting the dogs out on that if it comes through. More and bigger and genetically modified dogs.
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The future of our country
Is looking bleak indeed,
After 11 years of Labour
And their tricks and sin and greed.
Incompetence is rewarded,
Jacqui cracks the whip,
History is rewritten
In Labour's iron grip.
It's time for Nu-Lab heads to roll,
Things have gone too far,
The time for change has come at last:
This government is sub-par.
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The police have acted ludicrously. I think few people can argue with that.
However, this does not appear to be the work of some noble whistle-blower, someone a la Clive Ponting, a political neutral who wrestled with his conscience and then thought, sorry, I must let the world know. This is someone with a political agenda using his position expressly to embarrass the government. It may even emerge that he was encouraged to take up the position by Green. We'll have to wait and see.
But while I can accept that this reflects very badly on the police and the way they have treated parliamentary privilege, I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of getting down a foxhole to support a partisan political hack who , allegedly, infiltrated a government department and rifled thorugh the filing cabinets. Talk about dirty tricks. In fact you could argue this will make it very difficult for real whistle blowers, people acting in public and not party interest, to be be able to get information out in the future.
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So its ok if its a labour leak but not if another party leaks it.And just how are we to know when we are being lied to.
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Please make Mr Galley a Lord .
If Peter Mandelson can be elevated to the House of Lords , Mr Galley should be too for services rendered to the country.
He is now facing the ZANU Labour police for exposing the truth ( inconvenient and uncomfortable for his political masters )
He is a brave man and should be rewarded !!
At least he made the Home Secretary look like the small partisan politician she is really is .
She should stop digging now and be forced to resign if this government had any dignity left.
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re: 62, carrots
Lol thanks.
You may be interested to know I've got a poem in the works called 'Lamont's Lament' in which the eponymous hero expresses his sorrow at Darling's usurpation of his nickname.
But I'll save that for another blog...
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Thanks fellow bloggers!
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Well there are three candidates going nowhere and going to fail...
And when there is a change of Government, - which will happen - I cannot see their future being bright.
The Police are now politicised. Official.
Time for us the voters to elect Chief Constables.#
Catching criminals is more important than leaks...
# None of the above would get a vote from me.
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I'm sure plenty on here Right or Left are as baffled as I am as to why certain posts get moderated.
Several of mine in the last couple of days for reasons I have no idea when I look at the house rules.
One simply gave my post number followed by the word "moderated" follwed by several ? and even that got moderated.
Bizare.
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come on, when is the bbc going to start taking this story seriously.
bbc have been trying to downgrade this story all weekend.
someone needs to do a watergate on this case.
nick, we pay your wages. i want you to find out what smith knew and what brown knew and when they knew it. and don't accept the first answer.
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Oh, come on!! Leaks have been a regular feature of British politics for decades!
Who exactly is above whose law here?
Sorry, but this stinks.
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Nick may I suggest a question?
Who is paying for Christopher Galley's Lawyer?
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Exactly no one should be above the law, and that includes the police who now are turning our country along with this Government into a police state.
Damian Green was arrested simply because he was doing his job too well and embarrassing this Government. No one any longer since Ian Blair has any faith what so ever in the police so the fact that the government and the police back each other up is no surprise.
Its about time the media used its supposed independence in this country and brought this Government to account before they control everything in this country.
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#69 Boilerbill
"Just to add to the fun. Who was it who informed Boris and Cameron prior to the arrest of Damien Green and the search of his offices?"
I've no idea re Cameron, but Boris would have been told as chair of the Met Police Authority.
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The whole edifice is about to come crashing down. What started off as "stuff the Tories" is about to rebound 100 fold. As ye sow, so shall ye reap.
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So Harriet Harperson and Mad Jackie are getting together with the Puppet, sorry Speaker, to "discuss" the statement?
Oh this is delicious!
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#63 FreedomIW
"Putting two and two together, the best guess is that probably a role in a future Tory administration was dangled in return for a steady flow of dirt."
And you don't think "Duff" Gordon could just possibly have used that method in the run-up to the '97 election?
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#63
What if we stayed in this reality rather than debating the rights and wrongs of a made-up one?
Fact: Labour is staggering like a drunkard along the sidewalk and there's no point you trying to create hypotheticals to pretend it ain't so.
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Check out Iain Dale's blog on this subject.
I've been refferred for posting the link to his blog at 77 - but the government is in hot water again on this issue.
There is evidence they are trying to manipulate the Speakers statement on Wednesday.
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#85 EatonTrifle
Desperate, desperate stuff. You know it's rumbled, don't you? I know it hurts, but just accept it.
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Nick,
I have made comments negative about your coverage in the past. I prefer this report, it returns to some level of impartiality and question asking. Too many are opinions - even allowing that this is a blog - not an editorial.
Why so much suspicion and distrust of politicians and political journalists and editors? I think it is because there is a feeling we are all treated as ignoramus and a group of selfish people who - let's face it - got lucky in Westminster are destroying our faith in politics - what small faith we had.
Career politicians, career reporting. We need people who have conviction and independence. I could not care about Mr Green or his "mole" - groomed or not. What we do care about is that some honesty, integrity and pride enters the arena. And I mean pride in doing a good, honest job. Not ego.
Keep asking intelligent questions and stop feeding us lines. Then we may be happy with politicians and their pals in the press. Politicians are sarrounded by politicians - each feeds the others paranoia. A man in your position is there to remind them where the real world is.
Forget the niceties - find out what really went on and tell us. It's why you are in the lucky position you are. And are the police in hot water over this - from the start it was their reaction which concerned me. Yet how many lights were shone on their "impartial" behaviour?
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All this good work our leader has been doing fixing the economic crisis and pound is still in free-fall, how long befoer the IMF step in?
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The Iain Dale scoop on government manipulation of the Speaker is now on Guido's blog as well.
I was referred at post 77 mighty quick!!!!
Someone somewhere doesn't like this bit of news!!!
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ACPO is an organisation which almost perfectly demonstrates in microcosm the pitiful democracy that we endure in this country.
Not a single person in ACPO is elected by the people.
So, they act in a totally unfettered way, as the zealot Brunston has often demonstrated.
I understand that some politicians are stating, a few hundred years after the Americans, that these senior police personnel should be elected officials.
Better late than never and even then it still won't be as good as the American model, where even the local sheriff has to stand for election.
Why can't people wake up and realise what a muted democracy we have here?
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No. 75
"It goes to the heart of what is wrong with this government. They just have no idea of what they've been given. What they've been entrusted with."
You are so right, this Government are to stupid to understand that they have even done anything wrong in this case.
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Good evening Balhamu.
I would say that you have been spot on so far and yes, i do believe you were ahead of the game when you first named Mr Galley.
I look forward to your knowledgeable posts and I hope you are not refered for the truth again.
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Is anyone in control of the Metropolitan police? And what is the point of the Home Secretary - she is clearly out of her depth.
It just seems to be further evidence of the way the powers of the state have grown alarmingly under this Labour government.
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Come on BBC. Catch up!
The news that the Government have been caught trying to manipulate the speaker has been published for 2 hours now.
Care to even mention that there is a development in the Damian Green story?!
Once you've read the piece on Iain Dale's blog and now also on Guido...... here's my view:
We all know this is the way Labour works. Threats, intimidation and managing the story to fit the known facts. It is nice to see them exposed once in a while with the evidence laid before our eyes.
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No 95
You wrote "This is someone with a political agenda using his position expressly to embarrass the government"
dose this mean that you support arresting the mole, aresting the MP the information was leaked too. Taking confidential information of constitutes. Raiding the MP home, trying to take the MP wifes (shes a lawyer) private information involving her clients.
Is that what your saying? So what it was for a political agender. That is politics.
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I have to laugh at all the petulant lefties comments,they have had 11 years or unrestrained freedom to spout whatever they want while shutting up dissent.Please allow us a little bit of pleasureThe government got too complacent and took a step too soon and have come unstuck,hard luck.
As for those police contenders for the met nicks mentioned,it sounds as if theyre all left leaning too,just as blair was.
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Any chance that Gordon Brown might stir himself to say something about this matter?
Or is this another McCavity moment?
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At least the Times is earning there money.....
http://timesonline.typepad.com/comment/2008/11/to-assist-the-m.html
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re: 64, U9461192
Gordon Brown is a clear and present danger to all our wellbeing. He has now irretrievably destroyed the economy and the social unrest that will inevitably follow will take a generation or more to resolve.
The Jowly King of Nightmares
Is keeping very quiet,
If he tries to lie again
There'll surely be a riot!
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So now we know the views of these three applicants for the post of Commissioner, I can we now be assured that none of them will be appointed. The Mayor of London should intervene and rule out any of these Government stooges from this supposedly impartial post.
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With today being the closing date for applications for the Met's top job, and three of the candidates climbing over each other ingratiate themselves with to the unapologetic Ms Smith, is this not the right time for Boris to assert himself?
After all, he is actually the only person who has been elected to protect the people of London.
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What a fantastic piece of luck that the pound is dropping, great for business at a crucial time, metal sheet working and engineering will be delighted at the news.
Great Scott! we may see Britain at the for front of manufacturing. hail the Great leader
all is well! all is well!
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#109 - balhamu
A breach of the Civil Service Code may well be a dismissal offence (although there is the standard 'whistle-blower' basis of appeal). However, it is not a criminal matter unless there has been a breach of the Official Secrets Act. This is not, as far as I am aware, alleged. On the face of it, Mr. Galley may be joining the ranks of the unemployed but, beyond that, he is in the clear. Mr. Green it seems to me cannot be culpable unless the information he used was either obtained unlawfully which, on the face of it was not or was an official secret, in which case he should have been charged under the OSA.
Given that neither situation pertains, one has to assume there is a questionable motive behind both the leakage of unauthorised material by the Tories and the absurd over-reaction by the government. In either event, intelligent people would simply let this go away. Much more significant is the improper searching of Mr. Green' parliamentary offices, the conduct of Michael Martin's office in allowing it to proceed and the question of whether the Secretary of State was aware of what was going on. My view is that the Met have behaved in blatant violation of constitutional convention in respect of the Palace of Westminster, that any evidence obtained as a result should be inadmissible, and that a very senior head needs to roll at Scotland Yard. Much more to the point, this begins to look like a conspiracy at the very highest level of government which would suggest that Mrs. Smith is unfit for office, both Ms. Harman and Mr.Straw as ministers who were in a position to know what was going on or should have been told are in an uncomfortable position and that the PM has on his hands three ministers who should have known better. Add to that the fact that the Speaker is supposed to be impartial but (coincidentally?) seems to have taken a position which favours the government and one can be forgiven for wondering whether the whole lot of them should not not consider their positions, assuming that is that they have the collective nous to identify one.
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#125
derek etc, please comment on this article. I'm sure you're disturbed by the flagrent breaches of trust and would want the offenders brought to justice.
Or, more likely, you'll ignore it.
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I am going to write to Scotland Yard and ask them to investigate G Brown in relation to a series of leaks - lets hope they raid No 10 (before he gets booted out)
I don't suppose they will bother but it is a nice dream
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Nick, Clearly you have forgotten what a reporter is supposed to do - find and report news - stop just printing Government feed.
Other areas of the BBC can do it. They are already reporting an attempt to arrange the news for Wednesday.
"a leaked e-mail shows that ministers are seeking to "stitch up" a story about the background to the police action ahead of Wednesday's statement."
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Come on BBC, I'm surprised you are not sticking up for NuLiebour a bit more.
Hmmm, looks like 11 years of building a 1950's Stasi state is going to rack and ruin. I thought if they'd give themself enough rope they'd eventually start to hang themselves.
Carry on NuLiebour! We are all starting to see what you are all about.
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So he says he is innocent - that's it then ,must be true.
Just as well when Aitken and Archer proclaimed their innocence the police insisted on caryng on with the investigations.
Perhaps the police should be allowed to carry out their investigaions in this case as well, just a thought
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Even the New Statesman has turned against Labour.
No doubt the usual suspects will somehow try to claim it's a Tory conspiracy. LOL
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Lets do a thought exercise.
1) New Labour have shown tendencies to totalitarianism. Not a biased comment, just a fact. Surveillance, ID Cards, detention, etc. In fact in the 10 steps to a fascist state, New Labour probably tick about 8 out of 10 boxes so far. Again, not bias just a fact.
2) The logical end to a transformation into a totalitarian state is the control of police, the suspension of law and the executive, if that is the right word, being above the law. Lets assume that this is the end goal of New Labour. Or at least, something they believe may result on the course that they are taking.
3) How may they go about making themselves above the law? They can't simply bring this in a bill. It would get shot to pieces. They can't just announce it. Public opinion would crucify them and beside, it wouldn't be enforcable. They would need to create a situation where the opposition and the public are wanting this change.
4) If somehow an opposition MP was arrested on a trumped up charge, perhaps there would be sufficient opposition and public outrage to use as cover to bring in a law so that MPs and Westminster is protected from the police. Maybe even a law to take control of the police by the home office.
5) 9 out of the 10 steps would then be ticked off.
Just a thought exercise. You think this is ludicrous?
Look for talk from the Home Office over the next few days about legal reforms for new protections for MPs. You think it can't happen here?
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Well according to Nick on News at Ten, the stuff wasn't covered by the OSA.
So could the government apologist care to explain what the Hell is the point of police arresting an MP for 9 hours, barging into Parliament and generally making total a***s of themselves was?
Apart from jostling for favour in their new job application, that is.
EtonTrifle? derek?
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Well Nick Robinson has covered the story about the government being caught trying to manipulate the Speaker over the Damian Green affair on the 10'O'clock news tonight.
So there is no point anybody trying to refer me for pointing this news out on this blog anymore (as someone did at 77 and 116). The story is out.
If you are interested in examining the detail follow this link on Iain Dales blog (who broke the story):
here
Nick - that wasn't bad. You were quite fast to pick this up all things considered.
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And another leak tonight
Hows this for democracy
It turns out that ministers, commons authorities and the speaker are all to meet in advance to discuss to his response the crisis.
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Make Mr a Lord he deserves it more than PD
Great service to the nation!!
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#131 threnodio
Extremely well put, but the new leaked memo re the meeting of the government's great and good with the Speaker to help prepare his statement for Wednesday suggests that the "collective nous" is simply not there.
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128 jc
Strange, as it's been shown on the 10pm news
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86 jimbrant
Well I agree with you up to a point.
However I do not have much confidence in the Police or the CPS for that matter. There are repeated cases of action taken which once initiated rapidly move to a cul de sac. Usually at significant cost to the taxpayer. There is usually no apology, or one has to be extracted under media duress.
DG would have to be particularly dim to leave Post-It notes, paper or electronic, about if he was even doing something wrong which is not proven. Moles are not trusted by anybody and always claim to act out of moral confusion even if it is not the case. Moles are an internal problem, not an external problem and should be dealt with internally. It is highly likely to be a waste of time chasing the reciever. If DG is at fault in any way he is not up to the front bench, but it is at least unlikely when memos have been issue on the protocols of dealing with leaks. All he had to do was follow house rules. DG has an arguement that he was acting in the public good. It is the mole who is in the weakest position because the employment rules are simple, you should not leak.
If this government was not so in love with spin and deliberate leaks they would be more likely to recieve the benefit of the doubt. You have stated before that you believe the Kelly account and I respect that opinion, however I find Blairs drive and argument for war inexcusable. There has been a cultural problem with New Labour from the outset, the mission appears to have been media presentation.
What is striking to me is the bellowing from the MPs that they should not be subject to the actions that they are so happy to inflict on the public. This sort of action should not be taken on them, in the same way MPs opposed FOI requests, and are still using stalling techniques on delivering the goods.
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80. Eatonrifle
Oh Eaton you should check your mail
Youve got mail
Offers still open
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121. jonathan_cook
You dont think this is a news channel do you?
I bet ministers and the speaker are meeting with NIck right now to discuss his reporting of the Speakers response.
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I just wondered whether anyone had seen a Prime Minister around this country somewhere? I'm sure I had one a week or two ago but I put it down somewhere and seem to have mislaid it.
Most careless of me.
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Labour's sins are varied
But mostly they're the same:
Wasting taxpayers' money,
And dodging all the blame.
I beg you all to wake up,
Let the scales fall from your eyes;
Nu Lab have turned against us,
We need to cut them down to size.
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Gordon is a gambler
Who says 'just one more bet!';
He can't control his habits
Let alone the National Debt!
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Maybe nobody is above the law, but for the avoidance of doubt that includes the police, and certainly it includes the rather exclusive special interest pressure group such as ACPO.
If there is a hierarchy in those whose business is the law, then Parliament and its membership, however awful, are higher up that pecking order than the police.
We need a Public Enquiry into the police, and specifically into the Met who didn't even consult lawyers before acting.
I'm no Tory, but the politics of expediency as practiced by Blair, Blair, Brown, Smith and Straw, could make me one.
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number 122
I said the police had acted ludicrously, so no, I don't.
However, call me picky, but I expect my civil servants to do their jobs and help make the country work and stuff and not spend all their time looking for embarrassing docos to leak to their political groomer. This bloke blew more whistles than Clive Thomas.
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Reference my post at 121
My apologies to the BBC - they had covered the manipulation of the Speaker by the time I posted here:
BBC is covering the government manipulation story
The BBC TV news flashed up an image of the e-mail which is on Iain Dale's blog with the attachment that was sent. You can zoom in on it and see for yourself:
Iain Dale Blog
The government say the purpose of the meeting is this:
"The purpose of the meeting is to discuss the parliamentary business and handling of issues that arise from the fact that the speaker's statement and the Queen's Speech will be happening on the same day."
Click on the original e-mail and ask yourself - if such a group of high powered individuals were really meeting to handle issues that arise from the Speakers statement and Queens speech occurring at the same time?
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Of Humberside and Hoy,
Lord Peter, Man & Boy,
Has fancied Number Ten,
The question, now, is when?
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I'd like to think that there will soon be some resignations at a very high level, but resignation seems to have gone out of fashion. Rather like honour. Instead, I think, what drives some, at least, of those in this government is a sense of dour puritan zeal, and, as C.S. Lewis said, "those who torment us for our own good will do so without end for they do so with the approval of their own consciences." Thus they may genuinely not think they have done anything wrong as the
foot of the state weighs ever more heavily on the neck of the citizen; for why should they? To themselves they are the truth, the way, the life.....
Has any cabinet minister ever been impeached in this country?
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Give me your computer for 24 hours and I can find evidence to convict you of anything.
e.g.
adding indecent photographs
inserting e-mails
adding documents
amending documents
I can also arrange to prosecute ANYONE on your e-mail list such as
sharing indecent photogrpahs
fabricating e-mails
etc etc
A nice thought . . .
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58 threnodio
Honourable conduct of members of the Indian govt - an example to those closer to home:
resignations
And one feels "moral responsibility". A new concept!
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With respect to the nobody should be above the law comment from the police.
If the law is structured in such a way that it can be applied to everybody and treat everybody as a serious threat - without any serious evidence - which is the route things appear to be moving towards for administrative convenience. The problem then is that everybody progressively loses their rights and it becomes an issue of what you might possibly do rather than what you have actually done.
The question therefore, if nothing serious is proven becomes on just what basis the police operate. It is not as though the police do not get it wrong. It comes back to who let the dogs out.
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#23 p2tp
Your best yet! Bravo!
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Is it me or does it seem that moderation on this topic is ending up as censorship? Why is the BBC so scared now of free peach? Come on Nick sort this out and allow a free debate on this subject.
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86. jimbrant
Youre right of course Jim, we need to wait to get the facts, but in the mean time a few of us like to have a bit of poke at the government. You know just based on past experience and all that.
But Jim what is the crime that Green has committed?
We know releasing leaked info is not a crime. Brown was a professional.
We know that paying (bribing) someone to obtain leaked information is.
The Mole says he just passed on information that was in the public interest and that no bribes were involved.
So we should assume that was what he said during his 17 hour interview with Counter Terror officers shall we. After all it would be rather odd to admit it he and then deny it at a press conference.
SO we are down to grooming, encouraging. My understanding is that this act has to at least in part include some form of corruption and I believe past precedence says that must include the passing of money or some other form of reward.
Well actually at this point we are down to … Was there even reasonable suspicion for grooming or bribery?
Personally I dont really care, everything that has been leaked has been very much in the public interest and has not threatened the countries security in any way and has gone a long way to further damage a beleaguered government.
Does it really not bother you that such discoveries and documents are kept form us
You know like the fact that government employees thousands of illegal immigrants (while it prosecutes private employers who do the same) some of which actually get to guard the PMs car.
Come on there come a point were you cant support the home team.
You must be there by now on this point.
I was quite happy for Brown to leak on the matter he did when Major was running the country into the ground.
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#143
Honestly Carrots make up your mind on leaks/ are you for them or against them?
Jeez, we will probably have a litany of leaks tomorrow, we might even get some from Plaid Cymru!
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Be prepared for a shocking poll tomorrow.
Conservatives neck and neck with Labour. Liberals on the increase!
The awesome and mighty power of the BBC publicity machine!
Has the public not noticed that Gordon has wrecked the economy, the pound is in freefall, we have the biggest debt ever, the VAT fiscal stimulus is a joke, taxes will rise vastly and that we live in a police state?!
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137 p2tp
Excellent!! More!
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Brown arrests the opposition,
His critics vanish in the night,
He tries to silence all dissent
As if it was his right.
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119. At 9:21pm on 01 Dec 2008,
derekbarker wrote:
Good evening Balhamu.
I would say that you have been spot on so far and yes, i do believe you were ahead of the game when you first named Mr Galley.
I look forward to your knowledgeable posts and I hope you are not refered for the truth again
Baaaaaaarrrrrrffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
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There's a conspiracy theory in operation down my way, which goes along the following lines:
The Govnmt are paranoid about losing their way, lost for ideas on a number of current issues, short on policy ideas for the upcoming election, 15 points or thereabouts behind in the polls, and paranoid about losing the next election.
Cripes.... what do we do?
Let's obtain the opposition position and policy detail- easy way of achieving this? Confiscate files, computers etc...
But is this possible?
Not in Britain surely, but it has been evidenced in some tin-pot countries which have been through the election process within the last year.
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I don't understand.
This rubbish at #137 is allowed through:
(EXCERPT FROM SECRET RECORDING OF CABINET MEETING)
Brown: Another embarrassment. What are we going to do?
Darling: We're DOOOOMED!
Brown: Be quiet.
Darling: DOOOOOO---
Brown: SILENCE! Bring me Mandelson.
Darling: Yes master.
Brown: Hmmph.
Darling: (On intercom) Bring him in.
(Mandelson is wheeled in)
Mandelson: SSSsss...
Brown: Comrade Mandelson. I like your straitjacket. It goes well with your V-neck. Now, I have a job for you...
Mandelson: SSsss?
Brown: The Tories are... becoming troublesome. You know what you must do...
Mandelson: Massssster...
Darling: Where is Comrade Smith? Perhaps we should---
Brown: BRING HER TO ME!
Darling: Yes master. (He runs off)
Brown: Mandelson... No-one must find out...
Mandelson: I underssstand, masssster... Leave it to Mandelsssson...
(Darling returns with Comrade Smith)
Darling:Here she is master.
Brown: Comrade Smith. Unleash the DraperDrones. We must flood the blogosphere with spam to distract attention from---
Smith: But master! They aren't ready...! Their programming is faulty, their arguments make no sense!
Brown: UNLEASH THEM!
Smith: But everyone will know they are bots!
Darling: (Weakly) Oh no...
Sound of mobile phone hitting the wall and smashing
Brown: RAAAAAAA-------
Smith: NOOOOOOO-----
kshhhhhhhhkshkshksh
(Static, and silence)
Yet any attempt to discuss the issues (e.g. #109) disappears.
It was initially ok and passed the original mods test, so someone referred me. Own up. Getting fed up with it now - and I find it very ironic that you try and silence people who have a different (and probably more rational and considered) view on a post connected with freedom of speech. Retaliation for not being able to quite bring the blog down to the level of intelligent posting on Guido. Who knows?
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Doesn't 'The Mole' look just like yer archetypal Tory supporting nerd?
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Intelligent debate:
132. At 9:54pm on 01 Dec 2008, power_2_the_ppl wrote:
NuLabour?
ScruLabour.
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What about the latest twist? That Harriet Harman and many others seem to have arranged a meeting with the Speaker to discuss his statement to the House?? Wow. Just how awful are these people?
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#63
The shortage of prison space is easily resolved. Declare the whole of the UK a prison and lock youselves away on the other side of the existing prison walls.
I'm certain we could all live with that.
#75
Henry II, not VIII. Henry II was the last GOP king (Good Old-fashioned Pagan) and so was not exactly committed to the opposite creed,. Similar thoughts occured to me here, but were somewhat overridden by the thought the Galley Slave may have been deliberately placed.
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Nick
I enjoy the cut and thrust of politics - and I suppose I have to own up to being a bit of a political geek !
In my lifetime I have seen many Prime Ministers come and go, and even more Ministers of State. More often than not I have been in disagreement with their views. But that's politics : you win some - you lose some.
Regardless of Party and political leanings, to their credit most seemed to follow a code of behaviour befitting the high office they served. Respect for the views of their opponents and common courtesy was a feature.
Not now. I despair at what is championed by our current Prime Minister and Home Secretary.
They pour scorn and ridicule on anything raised by the opposition parties, they reject all criticism, they refuse to answer questions, and shamefully they can never bring themselves to apologise.
Having accused David Cameron of engaging in 'party politics' over the Baby P affair and refusing to apologise , will he now have the good grace to set the matter right.
Also, will Ms Smith do likewise over Damian Green .....no chance !
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85 Eatonrifle
"On this blog, the level of ignorance of the Law, the separation of powers between Government and Police/Judiciary, parliamentary privelage and what it means, is staggering or intentional"
It really would help if you could get hold of a copy of "The English Constitution" by Walter bagehot.
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You are being so irrational about this Damien Green affair. If there is a crime it must be investigated. Anti terror police is just a title for a group of police. It doesn't mean green was treated like a terrorist. like PR Dave tried to imply.
Your minds will be much clearer when your pods arrive. You will sleep and awaken refreshed, contented and renewed free from the shackles of fear and anger. There is nothing to fear.
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164. derekbarker
Derek. Me Im all for leaks, the more we know the better, the more the ploiticians from all sides the better.
Leak away I say..
Talking of leaks, heres a joke going around some departments at the moment.. Thought Id share..
Gordon dies and gets taken straight to hell.
The devil greets him at the gates, oh No what you doing here, were full were full he screams. Oh what to do?
A demon helpfully suggests that they let one go under an early release scheme and let Gordon take their place.
At first the devil refuses, early release he screamsare you mad, but he eventually concedes when the demon points out that they can hardly turn HIM away.
The Devil and the demon walk Brown to the end of D wing where there are 3 cells. The Devil turns and says Im in a good mood you can choose who we let go.
The Devil opens the first cell and there is Tony breaking rocks the size of bendy buses for eternity. Ohh NO says Gordon, my shoulder problem would never permit that.
They proceed to the second cell and the Demon opens the door and inside is Tessa being whipped by Bernie as he shouts give me my money back.…blood and flesh dripping from her back…. Oh No looks far too painful whos in the next cell asks Gordon hopefully
The door swings open to reveal Harriet performing something unmentionable on Peter.
Well its not exactly ideal says Gordon but given the options Ill take this cell.
OK says the Devil…… Harriet youre free to go.
I love leaks, life just wouldnt be the same without them.
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Ref my post at 165 and the poll showing Labour and Conservatives neck and neck and Liberals on the increase..........
Digging into the COMRES poll data, at a local level:
1. Labour are just ahead of Tories in the South East
2. Conservatives are just ahead of Labour in Wales.
There must be something dodgy with this poll surely?!
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I am new to blogging so some of the conventions may be lost on me, but my comment 157, posted at 10.47pm, still seems to be in the limbo of "moderation", while other later comments have emerged into the virtual light. Why? Although come to think of it, the word honour appeared with a red line under it as it has done just here. Is that because we have reached the point where it is so little understood as to count as foreign word or is it just a dirty one?
If the former, my dictionary gives one of its definitions as "self-respecting integrity" which is what I intended it to mean in 157.
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Damian Green clearly spent a great deal of his parliamentary time snouting about for redtop media worthy swill and received such on a regular call from a Home Office nerdy mole. Unfortunately, for Green and the Conservatives, he's been caught red-handed with his proboscis stuck grubbily into a squalid muck-raking Tory trough.
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#179 jonathan
It would seem so.
Makes no sense at all.
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#179
No Jonathan, people dont think that MP's should be above the law, are you tories really saying that you endorse leaks?
Jon, people what to know what the governments will do to help them through this crisis, they dont want tory silence and the do nothing plan.
It just so happens our friends in America and around the world agree with GB, thats not a leak or new news.
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155 jc
Unbelievable. They just can't stop the porkies.
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177. dhwilkinson
Well one would hope that they are the most robust element in the force ... NO?
One would think that given their intense training that they were the most expensive.
One might even think that they are generally in short supply on a good day... You know fighting the war on terror and keeping an eye on the 2000 people here in the UK that MI5 who pose a threat to national security here at home.
One might even hope that when the current threat level in the UK is at SEVERE and the rest of the world was on red alert after the events in India that they might all be busier with more important things... No?
Well obviously not.... OK with you is it that they are looking for evidence of embarrassment?
Obviously is..
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I think the interesting question now is whether these senior policemen have pushed their names forward in that battle for the top job or irredeemably blotted their copybooks?
I suspect they thought it would do the former (which shows that for some reason they don't think Boris Johnson has the power that counts despite the fall of Blair). In practice I'd say it's now a toss-up between Smith making them suffer for this embarrassment or having to reward one of them by way of pretending she approved.
What it does show is that the police acted the way they did either out of unthinking brutality or because they wanted to intimidate anyone else who might have been tempted to embarrass the Govt - and I'm not sure which of those is worse!
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179. jonathan_cook
Well I know if I was polled Id say I was a big fan of Labour.
I want an election and I want Gordon to think he can win it.
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I think the attitude Cameron is taken is very bad for him in the long-term.
He has to be absolutely sure that Green has done nothing wrong. Or that the police can be intimidated or the Government persuaded to put political pressure on them to drop the case.
Also, a clear signal is being given that Cameron would find it completely acceptable for a Labour Shadow Minister in the future to nurture a Labour-supporting civil servant in his Home Secretary's office to systematically leak every document they come across to further Labour's cause with impunity.
I don't think Cameron would like this if he really thought through its implications. He's a good tactician and communicator. A strategist he is not.
So the danger is politicisation of the Civil Servant (explicitly, rather than the shady line between Special Advisers and the Civil Service that exists as present). Ministers will be wary of civil servants if there is a risk this could happen. Civil servants will be more carefully vetted for any sign of political allegiance, and best to just appoint staff from your political base in that case.
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#155 jonathan_cook:
Jonathan, you are seeing substance where there are only insubstantial shadows. Anyone who has ever had to arrange an event even a fraction as complicated as the Opening/Queen's Speech with the added difficulty of a statement by the Chair/Speaker about a situation involving an ongoing police investigation would not be in any way surprised that a meeting such as that proposed should take place, and involving the people who are invited.
No doubt you share Nick's suspicion of a conspiracy involving the senior police officers, who it is implied are toadying up to the Home Sec for reasons of venality though with no evidence at all in support. I am sure that you have seen similar conspiracies before, on the basis that "it is impossible to believe the government's explanation", though again with no evidential basis. I suspect that you think there was some great conspiracy involving everyone from Blair downwards in the Kelly tragedy, though again there is no evidence for such a belief.
Maybe this doesn't matter, since it is only politics and it is not necessarily a bad thing for governments to lose support after a period in power, if only for the long-term good of our democracy (though one could wish for a better alternative than Cameron/Osborne, IMO). However, it seems to me that the willingness to accept as truth what is in fact only innuendo or assumption is a symptom of a real problem, and evidence of a flight from reason that ultimately ends up in the dreadful events in Bombay, and all the previous consequences of the acceptance of unreason that we are so well aware of.
I think it is horrifying that so many people are willing, indeed eager, to come to a final conclusion when they know full well that they have only partial information.
With apologies for pontificating, but I do feel strongly about this.
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Carrots cant say I was blown away with that one!
Only kidding, good laugh! I like a sense of humor, surprised it made it through although, especially with all those referring
post.
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179 jc
Bluff in the hope of an early election? Please!
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"European Gendarmes" are in training in Italy. Presumably they are being trained in those world famous Italian methods. On the UKIP site I read that the government has refused to rule out using them in the UK.
If we leave it for too long then they will be the ones interrogating our MPs and leaving the traditional pools of blood.
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#179 jonathan_cook
The trouble with these UK wide polls is that they assume there is a similar political dynamic throughout Britain, and the "regional" figures are so small as to be fairly meaningless.
For example, in Scotland the sample - 76 - is so tiny that it's meaningless, but it breaks down as follows for Westminster voting intention
Lab, 31%
SNP, 31%
Con, 12%
L-D, 3%
Green, 2%
Other, 2%
Dont know, 10%
refused to answer, 8%
Seems very unlikely that the Lib-Dems could have sunk that low, since they are strong in the Highlands.
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180 catotheyounger
"Although come to think of it, the word honour appeared with a red line under it as it has done just here."
No its just your internet browsers spellchecker is set to the American English dictionary. The American spelling is honor like colour is color and favourite is favorite. We say "ou" they just say "o" Just ignore it or set it to the British dictionary. I don't know if they spell the word "paranoia" differently though.
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#180 catotheyounger
Why the mods leave some posts unmoderated while others are fast tracked is one of the great mysteries of life!
"Honour" appears with a red line (indicates mis-spelling) because your system is using an American dictionary. If you don't know how to change that, you can at least teach it UK spelling by right-clicking the word, and then clicking "Add to dictionary". It will then remember that you want this to be a legitimate word.
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#183 - derekbarker
Endorse leaks, no. Define that which ought to be an official secret, punish severely anyone who betrays that trust, put everything else in the public domain and stop grubbing around with off the record briefings and unattributable quotes. Let's have some open government for a change.
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Disgraceful slurs on Cameron:
Matthew Parris alleged in 2005 that Cameron 'had been quietly groomed at Eton and Oxford, and was rising effortlessly through the ranks of the Parliamentary Conservative Party'
The Mail on Sunday alleged in 2004 that 'Tory MP David Cameron, 38, is being 'groomed' by party leader Michael Howard'
Telegraph also alleged that 'Michael Howard had what many Tory MPs believe a "master plan" to groom Cameron in 2004
This website makes links between Cameron and someone who admits to having a 'male grooming business'
The Daily Mail say that "grooming" is 'a word seen as highly offensive. '
We must stop these outrageous slurs!
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173. bright-eyedwendym wrote:
Let's just christen it the inaugural meeting of LCFA (Lost Control-Freaks Anonymous).
"Hi, my name is Jaqui and I've lost it..."
"Hi, my name is Michael and I've forgotten it"
"Hi, my name is Harriet, and I'm faking it"
"Hi, my name is Jill and I've had it"
Bet the Queen's not looking particularly forward to visiting the asylum on Wednesday.
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Hubble, bubble, toil and trouble,
Cauldron fire and cauldron bubble
(apologies if the quote is incorrect)
My, my! Don't we all love gossip like this?
Whistle blowers, conspiracy theories, underdogs...the list is endless!
Perhaps this fiasco was all part of amastwrly diversionary tactic? I've never seen so many posts on one blog as yesterday's 1017!
On a more sober note-if mr galley is fired and then proven innocent, surely he could sue for unfair dismissal?
When will the book and film be released?
More importantly-how can we be sure what constitutes the truth?
Would the phrase 'I'll buy you lunch' constitute bribery?
Who exactly do you believe? Emotional manipulation abounds-after all, as a nation we all love whistleblower stories and exercising our rightous indignation for a victim.
Ladies and gentlemen, I suspect we are being seriously played here. Diversion of our attentions away from other serious bombshells, not to mention diversion of our national anger away from the current financial crisis!
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#196 threnodio
"Let's have some open government for a change."
I didn't have you down as a dreamy-eyed idealist. :-)
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180 cat
My 159 is in a similar state, having mentioned a similar word and referring to actions after the situation in the sub continent.
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#196
Threnodio, We all like open government, no ones opposing that but to suggest as the tories seem to be doing/ that all civil servants and police officers should be party workers, is way off the mark.
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192 Suffolkboy2
Maybe it's part of this
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How does it go” power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely”
We have a prime minister in office with out the sanction of the electorate and a chief of met police in charge with out appointment.
Leaders should be mindful that followers do what they do not what they say so when the boss rules with out sanction all their minions will be just as cavalier in having no regard for the rights of the public the freedom of our citizens and their elected representatives and the rights impressionable ministers like Jackie Smith will always be caught up in this way and not rationalise the impact of their actions for themselves.
Just look at the way the average bank employee treated their customers over the last 10 years they were just imitating the reckless, money grabbing, bonus focused style of their leaders.
But then again just look back at the social and economic havoc created unwittingly by the Wilson and Callaghan Governments and you wonder at how the Blair government managed to fool the media and the commentators for so long that they were different.
Then again we were being distracted from our preservation of freedom and democracy by promises like the eradication of world tyrants and terrorists as well as no more boom and bust.
So with enough plastic credit in our pockets to outweigh the Sargasso Sea we have been so busy shopping and designing the interior for the country retreat that maybe the public have had their eye on the adverts instead of the erosion of our long historic freedoms by this government.
We are thus left with the question, who is absolutely corrupt? Maybe giving the bankers the freedom they wanted to do what they wanted so we could have the money we wanted to spend leaves us with a lot more to pay for than just the billions they’ve lost and the thousands our governments have borrowed from each of us. No issue is divorced of any other if one problem exists then many others will as well.
We need some roll models that we can imitate who will lead us to a caring sharing community free to openly discuss the issues we all care about without making a secret out of issues like whose coming in and out of the country so that we have to go looking for the truth.
After all the best way to keep a secret is either not to tell a single person or to share it openly with absolutely everyone
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on a personal note, imho true whistleblowers are downright courageous, and their belief in telling the truth astounding especially when all around us are so economical with it in the current crises (we appear to be suffering from several at the moment).
The current collective of politicians and greedy bankers would do well to note the admiration provoked when the truth is told. Whistleblowers are usually destroyed because their integrity threatens the liars.
I hope noone EVER pretends to be one because once the pretence is uncovered, true whistleblowers will lose their hard won credibility for a very long time.
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#199
Tigerjay
Mr Galley broke his contract of employment,
he has admitted that! it would be difficult for Mr Galley to win any unfair dismissal case.
Some-roles of employment require a greater responsibility clause!
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Damian Green has clearly spent a great deal of his parliamentary time snouting about for redtop media worthy swill and received such on a regular call from a Home Office nerdy mole. Unfortunately, for Green and the Conservatives, he's been caught red-handed with his porcine proboscis stuck grubbily into a squalid muck-raked Tory trough he shares with other of his oinking friends.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#176 PammyAnny
"It really would help if you could get hold of a copy of "The English Constitution" by Walter bagehot."
Not exactly light bedtime reading, but definitely worth reading to understand the UK's own "peculiar institution". If anyone doesn't have a hard copy, it's out of copyright and so available electronically from many sources. The best I've come across is from McMaster University of Hamilton, Ontario, where you can download a PDF of the 1873 Second Edition from their Walter Bagehot page.
I doubt that Bagehot would have understood the idea of "open government" or "moles", though, as he was writing in the days just before the party whips started to achieve the power which makes us the "elective dictatorship" we are today. In 1873, of course, MPs were still, in the main, representatives rather than party hacks.
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#206
When's the next by-election? He'll be fast-tracked in to torment the Labour Party, that much is clear.
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balhamu, your comments are usually informative and well written. I actively seek yours out while others do their best to lose an audience.
The trolls will play it large or retaliate but that's only because they want attention and to distract you with power games.
The people in here who complain about "censorship" are themselves practicing censorship by glut but 99% of that is instantly forgettable.
Following on, it's interesting to note how the Green affair has devalued the true whistleblower from someone taking a personal risk for a higher purpose to being merely another can of baked beans in an unregulated free market.
Cameron and the Guido mob should be ashamed of themselves. Their approach to politics is cheap and corrosive, and never leads anywhere good. It's why the Tories don't have my vote and I don't read that dreg.
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I dont have a great interest in politics and have no particular party allegiance.
My 'laymans' view is that if Mr Green was suspected of breaking the law then the actions carried out by the police were correct. Why should the fact that he is a MP make him above the law? Surely the police have a duty to us all to fully investigate any suspected crime!
I think the comments stating things like 'why didn't they just phone him and ask etc etc....' are strange. Would the police phone you or I if we were suspected of a crime and ask if they could pop round for a chat, whilst they are at it they might as well ask if in the meantime we could remove all traces of our crime by destroying any letters etc....that may be incriminating.
If a crime is suspected then the police have a duty to all of us to investigate it as fully as possible using all neccessary means.
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Dear Nick
ACPO,s statement, is not totally true,
In 1892 in Piccadilli, five men sat around a table in a Club, to discuss the British Empire, on that day it would be decided that there would be a group of individuals outside of the Law, and Political Influence who would safe Guard Great Britain and Its Empire no matter what, these Individuals exist today, they walk the Corridors of Power, and are Establishmentarians of and Elite Order.
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From the BBC Website "Who's Hand is On The Button?", regarding the UK nuclear submarine fleet ...
"Very few people in the history of the world have held anything like the degree of responsibility that those individuals hold.
The destructive power they could unleash, if called upon to do so, is unimaginable.
But be assured: the fail-safes are many and they are almost certainly fool-proof - even if the prime minister goes berserk".
The Prime Minister HAS gone berserk. So has the Home Secretary, the Speaker, the Head of ACPO etc ...
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* dear Nick
* 214,
How absolutely true your statement is,
They are ALL a bunch of No HopersIts no wonder this country is failing apart at the seems, "What we need is a good dose of Levellers, OR Dyke Breakers, to return to Normality.
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So - the cops are apparently falling over themselves to impress Jackie in the hope of a promotion, so they sent not just some detectives, but the anti-terrorist team (the brownshirts) into parliament!
That is a total excuse - Hitler, Stalin and Robert Mugabe would have been proud of that one. It should be easier to arrange a search warrant for Buckingham Palace than to arrange a search warrant for parliament - it is a total outrage.
And Nick, you must stop being an apologist for these criminals! The Speaker, the Home Secretary and the policeman should all go.
And I don't mean like Haringey council, go home on full pay, I mean fired, look for a new job.
LOJO
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No one can be above the law.
Chief Constable Ken Jones, the President of ACPO.
Unless you are in (Za)Nu(Improved)Labour.
The free thinking general public.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#179 jonathan_cook
#193 oldnat
The regional data does look very odd, although there are some explanations for that in the comments on UK Polling Report's take of it.
The Indy seem to be standing by it with their Tory lead cut as Labour faithful return to the fold.
I agree the Scottish data is again too small to be useful, if at first glance encouraging for the SNP but astonishingly low for the LibDems.
The fieldwork was done between Friday and Sunday, when the Greengate story was still breaking, so it's not obvious whether it had had time or coverage to change opinions. All in all, I think I'll go along with the UK Polling Report's view that we shouldn't rush to judgement of it.
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The plot thickens by the day. Now we hear that Harriet Harmaman has called a secret (now leaked) meeting with Jack Straw, The Speaker and Jacqui Smith to discuss their approach to the issue in Parliament. Smacks of guilty witnesses getting together to synchronise their stories. To summarise the nasty face of The Labour Party has manifested itself on here, in Haringey and in Government over the past few weeks. I personally don't believe that Gordon Brown will ever recover from this. His integrity is shot to pieces and while he continues to say nothing Rome burns!
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Nick,even now the bbc are still showing bias,from this mornings reporting about the email"reportedly"!everyone's seen the mail and the government have not denied it.Why the inuendo it could be fake.When are you lot going to be truly independant instead of labours propaganda machine.
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Is this the biggest threat to Democracy since the Reichstag fire?
You might think so.
I couldn't possibly comment.
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Nick
Heard you on R4 this morning.
I was expecting a blog entry here with a title like:-
"Labours Problem with Honesty"
"Labours Real Agenda"
Or similar.. I can't find it - can you help?
In the middle of your piece you said (but moved on quickly) that you challenged labour over the presense of so many top bods at a meeting supposedly for deciding what the running order should be. At which point they changed their line on what the agenda was.
You kick up all sorts of inuendo on the tories - hear is clear labour duplicity (which, realistically you had no option but to report), but you do so in the lowest profile way possible...
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Gordon Brown leads a Government that attempts to hide the embarrassing truth from the electorate. When he fears that the truth will out he bullies to try to prevent its emergence.
There are now two stories running where this is evident...
Damien Green and Baby P.
It should be remembered how, when asked at PMQ's a few weeks ago, by David Cameron, whether it was right that Ms Shoesmith should conduct the review into her own authority, he claimed David Cameron was playing politics.
It was an attempt to silence him on the matter.
David Cameron had in fact asked questions that have been overwhelmingly appropriate. The Serious Case Review conducted by Ms Shoesmith was found to be inadequate.
Yet when asking for an independent review Gordon Brown, apart from suggesting that David Cameron was playing politics, claimed that the Government had seen the Serious Case Review (which was later to be found to be inadequate), and that the review admitted some failings and action would be taken in Haringey.
The Prime Minister spoke of a National review by Lord Laming, and action in Haringey. He repeated this several times, never suggesting further or independent reviews in Haringey, and when pressed claimed Cameron was playing poilitics.
Cameron had not seen the Serious Case Review, the Government wanted to keep it secret.
Even now they refuse to publish it, agreeing only to show it to opposition Ministers provided they do not reveal its contents.
The Prime Minister either did not know that the Serious case review that they had seen was inadequate, or he knew it and was trying to conceal it - hence his refusal to agree to an independent review when pushed by Cameron.
Perhaps, under pressure, he made his slur on Cameron that he was playing politics by asking for an Independent review?
Whatever, Camerons call for an Independent review was found to be correct. It is only as a result of this that we had the damming conclusions in the independent report yesterday. Agreed to only because of the media furore following the Prime Ministers claim of playing politics at PMQ's.
The baby P case shows how, when damaging information may come forward, the Prime Ministers instinct is to bully.
That same characteristic is perhaps evident in the way the Damien Green leaks have been dealt with.
Gordon Brown in my view wanted to conceal the truth about baby P, because it was a failing Labour authority. He wanted to put politics first.
It was Gordon Brown that played politics with baby P.
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#218
The British have a nasty habit of deferring to authority and letting off some toff
I'm sure the Labour apologists will know how to deal with that perceived failing in the UK psyche. PEEEP. Over the top with the buzz-words...
'Bullingdon Toff', 'Grooming', 'Do nothing Party', 'State secrets'.
Meanwhile our economy continues to burn and our civil liberties and ancient legal safeguards are trashed as the incompetent Labour regime circle the wagons for idiocies last stand.
General Gordon giving the orders from his desk safely in the bunker. One more push chaps.... I'll be right behind you. A plausibly deniable distance behind you in fact..
And immune to reason or learning like General Haig (another demented Scot) he continues to order wave after wave of insane spending. His answer to every setback be it bankruptcy, repossession, unemployment.
Spend (print) more money!!!!!
So this is how it ends.
You're right about one thing. The Brits deference to authority in the teeth of such pervasive idiocy is what has undone us.
Every month this regime endures is now another 10bn quid we'll have to print or pay back. But don't worry. No public employees were harmed in the destruction of the economy.
Well, right up until the end that is.
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This is the third day of the same topic, and that's a good thing because I think our Parliament should remain the one place where we, the public, can correspond with our elected representatives in confidence of confidentiality.
Sadly, too many forget that they are our representives. Too many vote in libe with what their party whips tell them, not what their constituents tell them. I find that disgraceful. Unsurprising, but disgraceful.
Coming back specifically to the Damien Green case, I do think that even if a crime had been committed and this goes to court, there are two points.
Firstly, a journalist was cleared of this exact charge last week on European human rights law grounds. The legal precedent has been set, so there's really little chance that this case will get to court. The DPP will be aware of the outcome of the case last week and will know that there is little prospect of a conviction.
Further to that, everybody on both sides of the argument have ensured that, even if there was any criminal act, any even half-dozy barrister could now reasonably argue that the accused has little chance of a fair trial due to the extensive media coverage of the case.
With those two things together, it seems to me that pursuing Damien Green is rather pointless and the police should give him back any and all documents now.
Which all puts the spotlight firmly back on Speaker Martin and Jacqui Smith, both of whom have untenable positions and must resign.
In my view, certain recipients of taxpayers funds for journalism also have untenable positions and should resign for they are failing in the impartiality aspect of their clear guidelines and many members of the public perceive there to be routine and systematic bias. Once that perception is widespread, then certain corporations lose the confidence of those funding their output and, if those concerned do not resign, then that corporation has a duty of care to the public to be seen to correct the charges that the public are laying at it's door.
When this whole affair dies down - as these things invariably do - Parliament has a duty to restore public confidence in their ability to correspond in total confidence with their elected representatives; it has a duty to address the concerns of excessive police powers and abuses of these powers which are perceived as being excessive and abused by many members of the public - the only away to address these concerns in my opinion is to amend the legislation that has led to a slowly developing set of opinions in many members of the public that this has become a police state.
There are a few other things I would do. A constitution in writing setting out citizens rights and freedoms - a legally binding contract between state and citizen.
I would also review the five years between elections business. I would like to know that if my elected representative was not representing my views when he or she voted on laws, that I would have a more frequent opportunity to remove them from office than the current (up to) five year wait. Our representatives must represent US, not their party and whatever agenda their party is singing to. I think five years is too long to go to not seek the approval to continue - or not - from local residents who send these people to Parliament in the first place.
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The Gameboy should realise he can't vote in this country if he doesn't live here.
Speaker of the House is useless not knowing the law surrounding his own job. Some say if he's replaced with another Labourite they will rebel.
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I find the moderation of many of these commentators to far to laissez-faire.
The amount of right wing ad hominems against people in government just shows that a lot of spoiled privileged people are abusing the freedom of speech to spread their offensive opinions and perpetual poisonous postings.
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Nick,
I feel really sorry for you. You try and track a story and all you get are jumped up blogaholichs screaming at you and accusing you of being a Nu-Lab mouth piece. Honestly the amount of bile & mistrust thrown at you is disgraceful
And then you have bloggers like #36 antiblazer - who on earth do you think you are? Just because it does not say exactly what you want doesn't mean he isn't doing his job. Have some respect for a hard working journalist.
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The government has held the right people too account as recent dismissals suggest. However, there's limits to "freedom" of information. Keeping the report confidential is quite proper because the statements given in confidence that obtained this result might not otherwise have been given.
Perhaps, when you're in a position of genuine auhtority or your ass is riding on the outcome instead of mouthing off from behind the wall of internet anonymity, you'll have a more circumspect view. Remember, this involves the careers of real people and developing real improvements, not some illusuary "win" on a random blog.
I note, Ian Duncan Smith is talking about rewarding council tenants who behave well with help to buy a stake in their homes as a way of reducing ghettoisation. It's an eye catching bribe but wrong headed and patronising, and like the Baby P affair, the government seems to be working on a much more mature approach.
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Perhaps Green was growing tomatoes.
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'No-one can be above the law.'
Yeah, right!
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#228
just shows that a lot of spoiled privileged people
You want to watch them ad hominems about 'privileged people'.
You will also find that it quite in order to question the sanity of our government when they appear to have been working tirelessly night and day for a full decade to destroy our economy and criminalise the entire population.
In fact insane is quite a mild epitaph for their behaviour.
But, for clarity, we, in the UK, are in the grip of the most mendacious, disingenuous bunch of power-crazed thugs since the middle ages.
Their record speaks for itself.
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#230
Remember, this involves the careers of real people
Encapsulating neatly the socialist mind-set. No government employees must be harmed. Even if kids are being killed or the economy is in freefall.
Don't think of the kids. Don't think of the economy.
Nope, the clarion call is:
Think of Labour voter's careers!!!!
No actually. Right down my list of priorities.
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Thank you to dhwilkinson (194) and oldnat
(195) for pointing out why the word honour
appeared on my screen with a red line under it. So it can't be a problem with its meaning.
Maybe it's just a dirty word after all. I wonder
what the Newspeak equivalent would be.
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230. Are you a British citizen?
My sister has lived in SA for thirty years. She is amazed we are allowing Peter Hain to pop up here again. She says, "we didn't want him and sent him over to you, please don't send him back, nobody wants him here!".
What a motley crew this Labour shower are. They wheel out the oldies and the disgraced such as Mandy and Hain to try and stem the haemorrhage they have created.
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http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=11497877
Brown bounce is back!
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228. you're lucky to get that one past the mods, all dissenters to the Daily Mail view have been censored, inc nos. 47 and 72.
Of course Galley and Green should have been arrested.
A systematic series of leaks over two years from the Home Office of restricted material?
No-one on this blog knows exactly what material Galley had access to, and the police were certainly correct to check which secret information was held by Green, without giving him chance to erase it.
Given events in Mumbai, especially, we should be taking no chances whatsoever with any secrets.
Arrest and be damned.
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These people should not be allowed to back away from what they have done. They have committed the very serious criminal offence of contempt of Parliament, the highest court in the land. They MUST be charged and brought to trial. The police involved, the civil servants involved, the speaker of the house, his staff and the ministers involved even up to the Prime Minister himself if necessary. They are all involved and there needs to be a fully open and transparent public investigation to get to who knew what and when, who ordered whom and the guilty charged and committed to prison.
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@ 237 Nobody takes the comres polls seriously.
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189 Jimbrant
You may well be right - there may be a very innocent explanation behind the meeting to discuss Damian Green affair and the Speakers statement.
The problem is - with this government - when you smell a rat it is wise to keep digging.
Iraq is the ultimate example. I smelt a rat at the time and did nothing. I wish now, however, that I had been on that protest march.
We subsequently found out that there was a dodgy dossier, an expert whistle blower urging some caution, questionable legality and that the cabinet were not given sufficient time or duty of care to debate the decision.
The economy is Labour's second biggest betrayal in my mind. My parents are swing voters. They either vote Liberal of Labour. Until a few weeks ago they were spitting feathers about Gordon brown.
I spoke to them the other day, however, and it was like listening to Brown himself.
This was no surprise really. They get all their news from the BBC, but I was shocked to hear them say they thought Gordon was doing a good job because "he was leading the world" and that the "economy here is better than if we were American".
Now - personally - I smell rats all over our economic situation. Gordon fuelled a boom and which led to a bust and your average man in the street has no idea.
Gordon leading the world, do me a favour?!
Capitalisation was done in several instances in other countries in Europe before Gordon launched his plan, which was pulled together by the guys at Standard Chartered anyway.
Then there is the "Fiscal Stimulus" - VAT as a fiscal stimulus is going to be very expensive, but my BBC watching parents have no idea that Angela Merkel, in so many words, called it a "waste of time" on Thursday and almost every commentator has panned it.
The government didn't want to debate the PBR, they have an ineffectual fiscal stimulus and are introducing tax cuts and rises with immediate effect and with no real debate in parliament.
The big rat like smell is that the whole PBR seems engineered to cover Gordon's past mistakes and give him a political lifeline on which to get elected - rather than being in the true interests of the country.
Ed Balls seemingly has acted decisively on Baby P - yet the BBC do not jump up and down telling you that he is withholding a report which has been cleared for publication and has cross party support that it should be released as a matter of public interest.
In fact the Information Commissioner says that Ed Balls is twisting a 2006 ruling to suit his own needs over the release of the report.
In theory we have transparent government and freedom to information. Tell that to The Sunday Times who have spent three years requesting information concerning advice given to Gordon Brown prior to the gold sell off!
We are told we don't live in a police state, yet terror laws are used against pensioners, protestors and countires. Opposition politicians are arrested and the Home Secretary is unable to answer a direct question if she knew Damian Green was one of the targets of the investigation.
Brazilians and lawyers are shot and the recent Head of the Met sounds like a Labour politician writing articles backing ID Cards on the day of a vote. Secret trials and 42 and 90 days have been proposed and there is evidence that a DNA database is being introduced through the backdoor.
PMQ's is a joke. Apart from planted questions by Labour MPs I can't remember Gordon actually answering a question put to him. Is this PM open, honest and accountable to the people?
Journalists too seem content to let Brown bluster "It was all America", "We are best prepared for the recession", "the Tories are the do nothing party" (apologies to Sopel who did actually pull Brown up on that - no doubt that will be the last PM interview he is granted)
With such a track record of deceit, half truths and manipulation - if I smell a rat with this government - I intend to keep digging.
I can't sit here in a Tao-ist trance convincing myself that all is well in la la land.
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There seems to be a lot of people using the phrase "no one is above the law" including the President of ACPO as quoted by Nick Robinson in this entry.
Now I spent a bit of time reading a Parliamentary report summarising the concept of Parliamentary Privilege. The way I read it, while no person is above the law, the House (within certain limits) _is_.
The question here is was DG acting as an individual or by virtue of the fact he was pursuing information to carry out his role on the Opposition front bench, was he representing the House.
My personal opinion is the latter. In which case it is for the House to decide if DG went too far and to decide how to deal with it if he did, not for the police.
Now there is a lot of ambiguity in the current definitions of Parliamentary Privilege, so there is lots of room for confusion and difference of opinion. This whole episode makes it clear this needs to be sorted out and quickly.
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Here we go. The Met Police come to the aid of New Labour again.
A mid case REVIEW is announced just in time to close down the debate in Parliament on Wednesday.
The Government line is now "wait for the results of the review.
Now convince us there is no conspiracy against criticism of tyhis Government
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? anyone know why the HYS on this subject is not posting, appears to be since yesterday, very few have appeared to get through, I'm wondering if it could be that BBC mods are trying 1. to sort out the pro gov posts to give a slightly more favourable impression, i say slightly because pro gov post's are out numbered by about 20 - 1,
2. or they are waiting to dump the post 's on in a block to make it difficult for other people to read as they come.
3. will they just close the blog with out posting the majority?
WHY? are the BBC so intent on promoting and protecting this government??
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#240
Why not out of interest?
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Nick,
I do have a serious problem, and that is how on earth can you guys be expected to keep up with what can be called events.
For example, Today covered the the terrible events now unfolding in Zimbabwe, this Cholera out-break now being reported is truly sad. I have commented before about this unfolding disaster and it really is time that something was done. The UN was pass an urgent motion declaring Zimbabwe a totally failed state, and must call for the charges to be brought against Mugabe on the basis that he is committing crimes against his own people, he is responsible for crimes against humanity.
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I still would like to know why my comment at 157 has been blocked. Is it because I used the word "impeachment"? At least there's no spelling issue there; American English recognises that one.
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Social Justice - a proposal from the Conservatives.
I like the sound of this proposal. I haven't read the detail yet:
Earned-Equity
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Surely the question we should be asking ourselves is: Were the leaks mostly beneficial to the electorate? Or were they more beneficial to the opposition party to which they were leaked?
I thought it was the job of civil servants to advise ministers with integrity.
And does it not depend on whether the information leaked was marked "top secret"?
If this is the case, any civil servant in question would be breaking his code of conduct in leaking the material.
As long as our elected representatives are not above the law and the law enforcers are not dictating to parliament, we are safe. The problem here seems to be a civil servant who was unaware of his boundaries. Or perhaps he took it on himself to make decisions which he thought were in the public interest without considering he might be breaking his boundaries. Whatever the reasons, the police action does seem over the top in this case.
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From personally having been in a position where I could've leaked information that would've rumbled a former Tory minister misleading the house, I know about some of the legal and personal issues this kicks up.
It's quaintly assumed and promoted by some that an MP is "above things", yet, if they're not and you do leak there's a whole bunch of law and enforcement apparatus in place to nail your hide to the wall. Losing a job can't compete against an "Oops, sorry".
What about Norman Lamont joining Phorm, who intend to smash through privacy law and sell our private data to the highest bidder? How corrupt and unfair is that? Yet, I never hear the Tories complain about this or ISP's closing people's accounts because they protest.
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#237 mypetdragon
Brown bounce is back!
I wouldn't take too much notice of this as it appears on a Labour songsheet.
Interesting that the advertisement on the right was for John Lewis, though..!
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Anyway else notice the different statements that the Home Office chief civil servant, David Normington, has made.
At the start, he said that "Ministers were not involved in the decision to seek police assistance, or in the subsequent investigation, and were only told of the arrest after it had occurred"
Now, following the exposure of the email regarding meeting to discuss the Speaker's statement, the official line has changed to "we tried to contact Ms Smith but were unable to due to her being in meetings"
So, we have now moved from no ministers involved to trying but failing to inform them. How convenient for Ms Smith that she just happened to be in a meeting when everything happened.
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# 224 egrid1
# 226 conspiracy2012
Absolutely in agreement.
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#243
A mid case REVIEW is announced just in time to close down the debate in Parliament on Wednesday.
The Government line is now "wait for the results of the review.
It's the right thing to do. We will make the right choices.
'Do nothing party'. 'Eton Toffs'. 'Bullingdon toffs'. 'Margaret Thatcher'.
Yep. All dissent is systematically squashed. Arrests, 'inquiries' with straight-jacketed remits.
An 'inquiry' announced that will take us up to Christmas so the whole thing will (hopefully) have blown over.
Meanwhile the real leg-work of managing the media narrative continues. Uniquely placed blah blah ..... leading the world blah blah ..... 'Do nothing party' blah blah ...started in America blah blah .... Global crisis blah blah.
And all the while the UK economy burns. Unemployment soars, our government borrowing gets even more out of control and there is no hope of rescuing the situation because in order to rescue the situation the government has to admit where they went wrong. And that would never do.
It is a Kafkaesque nightmare. Aided and abetted by cynical folk who would rather destroy the economy and damn us all for a generation than admit they made a mistake and attempt to fix it.
All Brown has to do is come out and be honest. The UK economy is wrecked. We've (all) been spending beyond our means. We need to all tighten our belts. I'll cut interest rates so that folk who keep their job can keep their homes. I'll cut government spending to the bone just as you all have to cut your spending to the bone. We can do this!! Blitz spirit!!!
But no! What we get is; We are uniquely placed to spend hundreds of billions we don't have just to make sure five million or more government employees (key-voters) don't have to worry about where their next pay-cheque is coming from. Vote Labour!!!!
Absolutely demented. He just cannot bring himself to admit he made an absolutely monumental blunder and so, rather than stop when we might still manage to salvage something he puts his foot down, Thelma and Loiuse style and drives us all into the abyss.
Utter insanity. And nobody in his party stands up and proclaims it as such. They're all so lacking in principle that they'd rather get an extra 18 months pay and pension than blow the whistle on this decade of insanity.
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Or was comment 157 suppressed because of the C.S. Lewis quotation? Well, let's see.
Here it is in full:
"Of all tyrannies a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own
conscience." C.S. Lewis.
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"ACPO has shared the concerns of the Permanent Secretary (of the Home Office) regarding leaks from his department. "
So the reason the police were so keen to get the mole are revealed. This was not just another enquiry which they took on becasue of a complaint the police actively wanted to stop the leaks because they embarrsasing for the police's paymasters. This is not the role of the police. It should have left to the Home Office HR Department.
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Don't you just love jimbrandt (aka the Dear Leader) with his protestations that we need to wait for all the evidence before we pronounce Damian Green inmocent?
This, after all, is the prime minister's chosen line on this subject..let's wait for the evidence.
Firstly, I'm sure Damian Green is happy to wait for the evidence but he was arrested before he had the chance to wait.
Secondly, this arrest broke five hundred years of parliamentary precedent to arrest a man against whom nothing can as yet be alledged....otherwise he would have been charged and detained further.
So a man innocent until proven guilty is arrested, has his home searched and all his files confiscated, a five hundred year old mechanism that provides parliamnetary protection to individual citizens is broken.
Yet no-one is to blame. And we (and Damian Green) must now wait for non evidence.
The whole case is what used to be called in times gone by 'trumped up'. It does nothing for the justice system; it does nothing for the protection of indiviual civil liberties.
Worse we have a prime minister who thinks this kind of behaviour is above board and we should wait for the evidence.
This is a police state.
Where is the evidence?
Where is the charge?
Trumped up allegations from a trumped up admionistration who have driven the economy into a brick wall.
Call an election.
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What puzzles me most, is why shadow cabinet members cannot request access to documents anyway. Frankly, if the opposition are going to be allowed to do their jobs then they should have access to all the information. How else can they hold the goverment to account? Ok, all the info should not be public, but the opposition ought to know all the workings of government.
Incidentally, I am not in the least surprised that someone wanted to blow the whistle on Jaqui Smith.
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#246 T A Griffin
UN resolutions are just hot air. Decisive action could take place very quickly indeed if the desire existed. Mugabe like all the other despots have considerable assets in the form of gold bullion and foreign currencies held in various banks in Europe and the Carribean.
The problem for the world's politicians is that it is like opening Pandora's box. We all know how our MP's like feeding at the golden trough. However Presidents and Prime Ministers are addicts, and long after they retire they live very well thank you very much.
So, stopping Mugabe this way will expose unparallelled greed elsewhere, and turkeys do not vote for Christmas do they?
I sometimes think that the worst thing that happened to Africa, was white man. I am white btw.
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There's another thing come up here this morning. Jacqui Smith - who has banged on about not interfering with police operations - has issued a statement revealing that she phoned the Met's acting head yesterday and asked him if he was sure this case was proceeding with diligence. Her statement, no leak, no innuendo - her statement read out just now on BBC News.
Which is it, Ms. Smith? Is it that you shouldn't interfere with a police operation or is it that you should interfere with a police operation?
Only, the day AFTER you telephone the Met, the Met has called in the boss of the British Transport Police to review the Met's decisions in this case.
This is ridiculous, and yet again it's Jacqui Smith at the heart of the latest ludicrous development.
Her position is now even more untenable than it was yesterday - if that were possible.
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@28. At 6:21pm on 01 Dec 2008, impartialnot wrote:
"Why all this animosity against Gordon Brown and Labour? "
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Because many of our parent's, uncle's and grandparents died in world wars to defend our nation and our parliamentary democracy from exactly the type of fascist despotism that Gordon Brown is bringing to these formerly free shores.
Using up to 20 anti-terror officers to arrest a shadow minister for lawfully doing his job in highlighting government failure is an act of a banana republic's thugs. Any British Government that fails to act immediately to rectify this, through bringing charges of contempt of Parliament down on those people responsible and preventing it from ever happening again, is not fit to sit in power in the mother of all Parliaments.
That an unelected leader is treating lawful, constitutional and legitimate dissent as being tantamount to terrorism is the sign of a him being a despotic dictator.
To support Gordon Brown, an unelected, (even by his own party), unaccountable, manifesto breaking control freak, is to support living in a totalitarian police state.
The labour party have NOT implemented the policies that they were elected to do. Instead they have removed their leader without a vote, dumped Brown on us, who then reversed course on a whole raft of measures and implemented the reverse of what Labour were elected to do. Now he is treating any dissent as terrorism. That means 80% of the population are NOW terrorist suspects and subject to detention without trial for up to 28 days (and that would be indefinite detention if Labour really had their way)
How many people who supported 42 days or 90 days detention without trial for "terrorist suspects" are still supporting that now that we know that a "terrorist suspect" is defined by Labour's home office as "anyone who disagrees with labour policies"?
How long before Labour invoke their Civil Contingencies Act and cancel elections altogether? Under the auspices of that act, The Prime Minister can define what amounts to a state of emergency and can then take full dictatorial powers and cancel elections, detain any opposition, outlaw other political parties and do whatever he sees fit in the "crisis". The act states that the state of emergency has to be limited in time and that limit must be public so that after the emergency, the state reverts back to normal, BUT the Prime Minister can, under the auspices of the act, use the emergency powers to extend that limit indefinitely.
We are a lot closer to living an a totally dictatorial totalitarian state than we are in a free democracy.
All this and the fact that "Prudent" Gordon Brown has been the major reason why the UK has been so poorly placed to react to the global credit crunch.
Labour has wrecked our economy. In eleven years they have done nothing to support and increase manufacturing productivity in the UK and manufacturing is a much smaller proportion of the economy today than it was even under the tories. They have sat back and basically allowed the banking and financial services sector carry the economy for the last 10 years and rewarded them with very lax and economically fatal rules and regulations that encouraged profligate gambling. This allowed Brown to trot out week after week and state that we have had so many quarters of economic growth that were by then, based entirely on massive and unsustainable mountains of debt. That growth actually started in Q4 1992 under the tories push to promote exports due to a weak pound after exiting the ERM. From 1992, manufacturing expanded, exports boomed and the economy grew. Labour took over, five years after this growth was established and then heaped huge amounts of red-tape and regulation on manufacturing businesses and yet allowed their elitists chums in 'the city' carte Blanche to pretty much do what they liked. This is why the UK became so poorly placed to weather the bank based credit crunch. When labour allowed the banks to become the bedrock of our economy, instead of the regulator of money flow, then when the banks (did what banks always want to do) became too greedy and lent too much (without a hope of it being repaid) as was inevitable with the fractional reserve system of banking with a fiat currency, then it was inevitable that a huge crash was-a-coming. Brown did NOTHING to prevent it and in fact did a LOT to ensure that it happened.
We Have gone from a strong and dynamic economy in 1997 in a free nation with free speech and people could decide for themselves if they took personal risks un-hampered by health and safety nazi's or politically correct thought police or the eco-nazis that would fine you for having your bin 4 inches too full.
Now we have an economy in ruins, a democracy that is held in complete contempt, lies used to start wars, opposition considered tantamount to terrorism and our personal and private data taken and lost and all our movements and actions to be monitored and recorded and stored and used against us and children from safe backgrounds taken into care and adopted off in secret and other vulnerable children in harm's way who are tortured to death due to the labour Politically Correct and incompetent policies and those responsible are given an unlimited paid Holiday as reward.
Labour have been utterly catastrophic in their failure. We desperately need an election now to get rid of this malignant curse on our democracy and our people.
We do we hate labour? Because if you value goodness and decency and honesty and fair play and freedom and liberty and democracy and self reliance and responsibility and competence (which I do) then labour's actions, not what they say, but what they actually do is the complete and total opposite to those good values.
And when government's actions consistently are the opposite to these dearly held values, then that inspires a great deal of hatred.
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The pictured Mr Galley is wearing a red tie.
Mixed messages!
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261. purple
Absolutely! Spot on! Cut and paste to other websites because you could not have put it more articulately.
Most of the bloggers on here are Tory supporters. Tells you everything.
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@"How much worse can things get under this Government."
they have barely started yet. They have issued cards to traffic wardens and community pretend police and other low level state enforcers to up their powers to arrest and detain people, to enter property and basically take over the work of the police, why? so the police can take on a para-military role to stamp out dissent.
Wait till they really get going... This arrest of an opposition minister is the tip of the ice-berg. Notice the Government has not apologised and still believes that this contempt of Parliament was a reasonable thing to do.
They'll have us all micro-chipped and dissenters shipped off to the gulags next.
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#241 jonathan_cook:
Sorry Jonathan - you complain of government half-truths, and then proceed to provide a long list of your own. I'm not going to go through each of your allegations, most of which are just your own subjective opinions rather than straightforward facts, but to take just a couple as examples:
-" there was a dodgy dossier, an expert whistle blower urging some caution". But the 'expert whistle blower' thought the dossier was generally a good representation of the intelligence then available, and was strongly in favour of the action against Iraq, so your statement would struggle even to make it as a half truth.
- "Gordon leading the world, do me a favour?!" . But the Nobel prize winning economist said in the New York Times that Brown and Darling were indeed leading the world on the response to the financial crisis. Now you may disagree; you may know more about world economics than Krugman, who thinks that " this combination of clarity and decisiveness (by the Brown government) hasn’t been matched by any other Western government"; and of course Krugman mmay be wrong. But to claim that the whole crisis was engineered by Brown, and at least partly to give him the opportunity to rescue his own reputation, is just paranoid nonsense, don't you think?
In any event, my main complaint is the general willingness to come to conclusions before all the information is available. Sometimes you have to do that, because you know you are not going to get all the facts (eg on Iraq, to use one of your own examples), but certainly not when you know that more information is going to come out in a matter of days that will provide the basis for a rational view.
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MunichMadrid7980 @238 wrote:
"Given events in Mumbai, especially, we should be taking no chances whatsoever with any secrets."
Even if the 'secrets' are just embarrassing examples of government incompetence - such as employing illegal immigrants to security posts?
"Arrest and be damned." - When they 'come for you', who will speak on your behalf?
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228#
"spoiled privileged people"??? Ah, now its becoming laughable.
You seriously think that the anger that is rising in the public is purely in the areas of the map that are blue?
Amazing.
CEH#
"When you're in a position of genuine authority...."
Which you would classify as what, exactly? Sampled this rarified atmosphere yourself have you? And your understanding of the OSA is what precisely? Are you a signatory to it yourself?
This is not about secrets. Both sides have accepted for many years the old axiom that "the ship of state is a peculiar one in that she leaks from the top" (I think I've got the broad thrust of the quote correct). Brown played upon it extensively whilst climbing the greasy pole. He cannot now grumble when it comes full circle and ends up being used against him. Either ban all leaks completely and utterly, abolish FOI, or accept it and get on with it. This kind of chicanery is only going to end in tears for Brown, who will be hoist on his own unelected petard.
Incidentally, where the Met is concerned... given the events of Stockwell and the immunity from prosecution of the firearms officers concerned and the failings of the commanders on the day... shame the same level of political top cover hasnt historically been given to UK troops in NI or in Iraq. We've been far too ready to prosecute our own troops rather than hold the failings at the Met's upper echelons to closer scrutiny...
Labour has succeeded in politicising the police force. I'm disappointed how easily they were bought off considering how much of a fuss the federation kicked up about the delayed pay rise barely 12-18 months ago. Funny that.
Consequently, it may be advisable to take whatever is said by ACPO with a large bucket of salt. "No one is above the law" indeed.
Right. So, lets see. Stockwell, 21/7, and the firearms officers still have their liberty... And then theres the Stephen Lawrence fiasco.
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CEH @250 wrote:
"From personally having been in a position where I could've leaked information that would've rumbled a former Tory minister misleading the house, I know about some of the legal and personal issues this kicks up."
Once again you raise this personal anecdote.
if you had information that proved a crime or misdemeanor, then surely it was your civic duty to report it. If you didn't, it could only be for one of the following reasons:
1) Your 'information' was incorrect or unsubstantiated.
2) You condoned the act of misleading the house and/or supported the politics of said Tory minister.
3) You placed self-interest above integrity.
You seem to indicate that the third reason - self interest - was your paramount concern. At least you are honest in acknowledging moral cowardice.
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Why were terrorism police involved in a charge of allegedly breaking a minor civil law? After all, nobody has been charged with any criminal offence over this.
Here let me put my conspiratorial head on for a moment and speculate. Please read to the end.
The home office has lost many "secrets". It is thought that Gallay may have passed up to 20 "secrets" to Damian Green "all in the public interest, of course".
So far, Green has only published 4 of them and NONE of those have been official secrets, nor have they been in any way damaging of the national security of the UK.
That leaves another 16 "secrets" We do not know what these are, but so far, Green has not leaked them so he is in the clear as there is no suggestion that he has done anything other than his job. What could these "secrets" be?
Could they be serious enough for the terrorist officers to be involved? Could it be a list of imported intelligence assets (asian illegal immigrants from Pakistan) that are trained and set up as patsies in some future state created "terrorist emergency" false flag operation that could bring about Gordon Brown's desire to implement the Civil Contingencies Act? (like 7/7 but on a much larger scale)
Perhaps I have been watching too many episodes of spooks, but had that been the sort of thing leaked, Galley would not have been in a position to hold a press Conference yesterday at all.
Or is this the Government's way of re-establishing deniability? Give Galley an offer he cannot refuse, his freedom from charge in return for his taking part in a press conference whereby it is established that he never leaked any serious or dangerous material after all? Just embarrassing ones for the labour party.
I wonder if Galley disappears after this with a new identity.
The anti-terrorism officers (spooks) get their info on the assets back, the government gets deniability re-established by way of the leaker and the opposition MP being declared innocent, Galley receives a new identity and lots of dosh, and the plot remains uncovered to be carried out when the PM deems fit.
I know all this is an extraordinarily poor conspiracy theory that is not even fit to be a poor episode of spooks, but it is the only theory that actually fits what happened.
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255. At 10:22am on 02 Dec 2008, catotheyounger @255,
A wonderful quote.
And a very apt description of what this Nu-Labour Nanny-Police State hybrid is becoming.
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@261 purpleDogzzz
Well said!
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balamhu, derek barker, eatonrifle etc etc...
Will you all make a public apology to Damian Green MP if and when the police drop the investigation and Green is then deemed entirely innocent of any crime?
I guess that you would expect the reverse to be true of me if it were a labour politician arrested for receiving and publishing leaked information, like Gordon Brown did numerous times in opposition.
Or (seeing as there is no statutes of limitations on this alleged crime) do you support Gordon Brown being arrested for this:
"Evening Standard June 11th 1993:
The documents the Government was today hit by fresh leaks of its planned clampdown on social security spending.
As ministers tried to brush over the banana skin of last night's leak on plans to tax invalidity benefit claims and make them harder, the Labour Party received more than 30 other pages of documents.
The documents were given to Shadow Chancellor Gordon Brown and his Social Security colleague Donald Dewar"
Or do you believe that only LABOUR politicians should be above their own laws???
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That Ken Jones guy is obviously being obsequious just for the job.
He missed the point completely - what on earth is the justification for a dawn raid on a family home with 9 anti-terrorism officers, while at the same time Ransacking his Parliament office?!
It is the last bit, which involves the breach of MP's power to expose the government that raises the concern.
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"e prepared for a shocking poll tomorrow.
Conservatives neck and neck with Labour. Liberals on the increase!
The awesome and mighty power of the BBC publicity machine!
Has the public not noticed that Gordon has wrecked the economy, the pound is in freefall, we have the biggest debt ever, the VAT fiscal stimulus is a joke, taxes will rise vastly and that we live in a police state?! "
So with "Gordon has wrecked the economy, the pound is in freefall, we have the biggest debt ever, the VAT fiscal stimulus is a joke, taxes will rise vastly and that we live in a police state?! " can you not add and labour are fixing some of the polls too?
After all, labour do not even have to get the most votes to win the election with a majority. They can come second and still keep power.
All labour have to do is fix a few polls, and then rig the election to the extent that they secure 35% share of the vote and they remain in power. Although they still have the Civil Contingencies Act up their sleeves.
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261#
Very, very eloquently and convincingly spoken. Agree 100%.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re 270. Thank you Max. I have had a picture
of Jacqui Smith with that quote beside her on the wall for 6 months now. Its inclusion in comment 157 (still currently suppressed) was to illustrate the idea that perhaps Jacqui Smith
cannot see that she has done anything wrong
because (and she wouldn't be the first politician to suffer from this delusion) her sense of her own rectitude overrides any other concerns and that she may not be the only person involved in this who feels the same. We will only continue to live in some sort of freedom if there are enough checks and balances on the State to ensure that its
operatives, elected and non-elected, know that they will be called to account when they
make mistakes while wielding a great deal of power over us and do not try to use that power to protect themselves from embarrassment, censure or removal from office.
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what were the motivations of this man who decides what is to be publicised and what isn't ?.
Let's see now, a Conservative activist, working in a high government office, leaks what he considers "important" information to a Conservative MP clearly with the intention of embarrassing the government of the day.
His actions were not for the greater good of society, but for the greater good of his party. the same party that now is crying about the use of a perfectly fine word to describe the actions of these two men.
while on the semantics bandwagon I object to the word "leak" being used with it's normal connotations to faulty plumbing and the accidental release of liquid.
"Leak" should be replaced with the phrase "Deliberate public release of confidential data, in breach of the trust placed in him by his employer"
and the well known cliche "Don't shoot the messenger" used by his lawyer, does not fit this situation, more fitting to this would be that other time worn cliche "Spies will be shot"
With their obvious support for this MP and his "groomee" can we take it that the "do nothing party" are going to allow all their confidential papers and reports to be publicised if they ever make it to downing street ?.
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re: 170, balhamu
You're just jealous.
And btw, pttp doesn't censor, he prefers to leave pro-Lab comments up for all to see and laugh at.
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#272 Purpledogzz
(Got referred last time for some reason)
You ask if people who think the police should be investigating this affair will make a public apology if and when the police clear Mr Green (my suspicion is the political pressure on the Government and the Met will force them to interfere in the investigation to draw it to a close quite soon).
Two responses (have to make it general unfortunately as I'll get referred otherwise)
1. Do you know what investigation means? Do you propose the police not arrest someone they suspect of breaking the law?
2. There certainly would be questions to be answered if we had a hypothetical situation where, say, a civil servant who was a member of an opposition party systematically leaked documents on a large scale for political reasons, and if opposition politicians encouraged them to do this, as there is a strong possibility that such actions contravene laws on conduct in public office
2. I seem to remember that there were several Labour Party officials arrested during Cash for Honours, and that No 10s computer files were confiscated and analysed by police. No charges were brought. Don't remember any apologies from right-wingers who were cheerleading this process, or any retraction of the allegations made that were found to be unsupported by the evidence.
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177. At 11:32pm on 01 Dec 2008, dhwilkinson wrote:
You are being so irrational about this Damien Green affair. If there is a crime it must be investigated. Anti terror police is just a title for a group of police. It doesn't mean green was treated like a terrorist. like PR Dave tried to imply.
AFTER ALL, WHAT IS IN A NAME? SALVATION ARMY, GESTAPO, STASI, BOY SCOUTS!
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241 jonathan cook
you seem to be suggesting that gordon brown has engineered the entire global financial crisis in order to influence the electorate at the next general election.
let's just take a look shall we, rising unemployment, house repossessions, banking collapse, doom and gloom.
no sorry, I can't find that strategy in my copy of "101 ways to win an election"
Still, right at the end, strategy 101 in fact, reads "Keep your head down, Do nothing and hope the other side can't pull it together"
Cam must have dismissed the first 100 out of hand.
get a grip jonathan.
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272, purplePuppiezzz
No, I would expect you to go to your DVD collection, watch some science fiction, and state that Mulder... er. Gordon Brown, has been got at by the cigarette smoking man, and has been breeding Hybrid aliens that posed as policemen and let him off with all his crimes.
that seems to be your level of debate.
people like you who live in some hybrid fantasy/reality and see conspiracy everywhere should limit themselves to commenting on sci-fi forums with the rest of the space cadet corps.
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I have a fairly SouthPark view on politicians, I don't trust any of them.
But reading the plethora of far out right wing comments here just proves that we probably would be even worse of with the Tories in power. What a lot of hot air without any substance!
New Labour cleverly became a New Tory party, and the old Tories desperately grabbing for power still doesn't know what to with that. They desperately want to paint Labour as old communists abusing power.
I wonder what they would say if the Home Secretary had interfered with the Cash for Honours investigation?
If the police has abused their power, let there be a proper investigation into that, but seriously, all these unfounded accusations are distasteful and speaks poorly about yourselves.
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Post 261 purpleDogzzz
Thank you for so eloquently filling out my core points made at my early hours post 204 - you are absolutely spot on.
Just one point you mentioned that the Labour government had done little to help manufacturing - Please don’t give them any ideas the last time labour decided to help manufacturing export in the 70’s they put 300,0000 textile workers and may others permanently out of work and closed hundreds of business.
They’ve ruined our financial sector by complicity and devalued our money by ignorance yet again their remedies for recovery look like a disaster waiting to happen
Our small technical manufacturing sector could be the only hope we have left they must not get near that or we will be back to the 3 day week and soup kitchens on every corner for our survival for any democracy its leaders should always remember the saying - anarchy is only three meals away.
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#261
For those that blather on incessantly about party driven views clouding real debate on this issue you could do no better than to take a look at the above blog.
Several people have already praised it - and I can fully understand why as it is thoughtfully written. It makes a statement and then sets out CONSTRUCTIVE reasons to justify it.
Views are easy to express - justifying them often more difficult.
You would need to be totally jaundiced or closed minded to simply dismiss these views out of hand.
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266.
I have zero fear of any govt agency 'coming for me'.
I have not been disclosing secrets for two years.
I have not been inducing / conspiring with a public employee to disclose secrets.
The point about secrets is that none of us know what Galley (and therefore Green, and potentially others) had access to.
In the circumstances better to err on the side of caution.
Arrest and be damned.
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MunichMadrid7980 @287 wrote:
"In the circumstances better to err on the side of caution.
Arrest and be damned.'
The creed of slaves.
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Dear Nick,
My blog of yesterday- 823, 5.46pm The Sanctity of the Commons, has still not been cleared yet it contains none of the banned articles you give as House Rules!
There was nothing offensive, yet still no word from you as to why it was binned.
Any news before the New Year?
:-(
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288
I thought that was Christianity
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Surely the time has come for the police to realise they were out of order and the inquiry should be dropped against Mr Green and Mr Galley. Mr Galley should be allowed to return to work and that side of events completed.
Speaker Martin should resign as should Smith, either for duplicity or incompetence, one or other cap fits.
I think Dave has played this event to inch perfection, Brown and Co. look ridiculous again!
Where are Peter Wright and Lord Mountbatten when we need them?
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Am I the only one to have noticed in all the furore about Damien GREEN. Today the Premium Bonds draw took place. In November 2008 [and for months before] the prize fund rate was 3.6%, but in December 2008, it is 1.8% out of an investment of £36bn. Where is this money going to? I thought that 3.6% was low and being regularly eroded, who is responsible?
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209 Brownedov
Many thanks for locating that. Heaven knows where my old copy is!
I've just been skimming some of it and find it fascinating all over again. Apart from the description of the constitution, it's so pleasant to read something so mannered. Thank you again.
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Nick quotes the Chief Constable, President of ACPO as saying:
"If an investigation reveals that any person may be involved in wrongdoing then they have the right to expect that we will investigate the matter...."
The question is, what is the definition of 'wrongdoing'?
There are many people who feel that when the government tries to cover up embarrassing facts about their incompetence, that is 'wrongdoing'.
The Police are supposed to investigate actual crimes. 'Wrongdoing' is often in the eye of the beholder.
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Haven't we taken a wrong turn in the dark?
We need to get back on to the track of a certain nerdy mole tunnelling as he did from the Home Office straight into Damian's scary Palace of Westminster pigsty office all of 2years (has it been muted?). –
What a vile stench of late has leaked from that torrid Gothic Tory’s slimy Green billet?
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U9461192
225, 233, 234, 254
All excellent.
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255 cato
Thank you very much for the quotation - very appropriate.
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241 jc
Very well said, as always.
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261 purpleDogzzz
Respect. An excellent summary.
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#292 b-b-jack asked "Am I the only one who doesn't understand what an interest cut means for assets that bear interest"?
Why are banks cutting their interest rates for savers?
Why are mortgage providers under pressure to cut interest rates on mortgages?
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If as seems accepted the mole leaked ie stole confidential & sensitive documents in breach of his employment contract and possibly the law in the case of confidential documents during a 2 year period,
there is surely a case for the police to be asked, by the senior civil servant , to investigate.
once the police start their investigation it is for them to determine what action totake ,within the law.
i watched the mole/solicitor briefing he very definitely did not say ALL stolen documents taken by the mole were only embarrssment material.!!
he did infer that the Green leaked documents were such ....not exactly the same thing!!
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302
Yes, Fivelive (301), but what you fail to appreciate is that we Tories have a divine right to act as we think fit in our own interests. We are the party of the individual, and we stand for individual freedom- our own. Oiks like the police should be out arresting poachers or pickets, not searching our offices for evidence. Why should anything be secret from us? We are the true governors of the country, the current bunch of oiks is merely a temporary aberration.
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Please somebody help me here.
I have always been under the impression that Whitehall civil servants were strictly forbidden from having party political affiliations. And yet the BBC reports that this guy was a Conservative Party activist who had even previously tried to get work in Green's office. Does the ruling only apply to SENIOR civil servants then, or am I missing something?
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"I thought the police needed some evidence before they could arrest someone, let alone a shadow cabinet minister, but clearly not anymore."
Actually what the law says in effect is that to make an arrest a constable needs reasonable grounds to suspect that someone has committed - it does not say a constable requires evidence - reasonable grounds (as in many terrorism cases) often comes from intelligence that at that time is not held evidentially - and in many cases may never be
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should any civil servant be allowed to be a member of a political party and stand for political office? My view would be NO.
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296.297,298,299 Pammy Anny. I am sure that there are many on these blogs who could discribe what they think of those observations of yours, I couldn't possibly comment!.
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305 aultblogg.
I may be a little old fashioned in my outlook on what is considered to be honourable, but can anybody tell why on earth there is a official secrets act? why for goodness sake dont we stop all this nonsense and forget about loyalty trust and things like industrial espionage, if someone confides in you then you shouldn't be expected to keep it a secret. if you see someones wife out with another man, then get on the phone immediatly, the official data act should be abolished, doctors should be able to tell any one they like about your condition. We should make a point of employing insurgents and thieves to run the civil service, when there's a change of government the opposition should be allowed to only have civil servants of their political persuasion serve the government so that the opposition can get all the information they need no matter what party is in power.
That is what many people on these bloggs are suggesting not quite as openly as that but the sense of honour seems to only apply if it's in your favour.
No one should be above the law and when I say no one thats from the top to the bottom, it's not any point in refering to the past they've all been at it and it has to stop. I think these so called whistle blowers are traitors and should be treated as such, it is a opinion that I have always held and I guess always will.
If a young girl/boy joined the civil service tomorrow as a CA and in a month was found to be passing on informaition about your affairs or a bank assistant cashier, at the very least you would expect them to lose their job no matter how much they thought that the information was in the public interest,.There are many secretaries working for accountants that could probably tell us an awful lot that might well be in the public interest, so lets stop this whistle blowing, as I say I may be old fashioned but if I give someone my word that I wont tell their secret then it goes with me to the grave as with a catholic priest.There would obviously be exceptions to that if it contained odious crime but definately not just to embarress someone.
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Grandantidote...
Reckon you need to take a double dose of laxative?
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